From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 1 09:23:23 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:14 2005 Subject: RL-02 Question In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 31, 98 08:53:25 pm Message-ID: <9806011323.AA05240@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1453 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/00d08c86/attachment.ksh From mor at crl.com Mon Jun 1 08:15:13 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: New stuff, new questions References: Message-ID: <3572A961.34091C3E@crl.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > I picked up some odd-balls recently. > > One item is called a Disk Storage Drive Diagnostic Unit made by a company > called Information Storage Systems, Inc. I've been curious about those too. Whatever they are, they're pretty danged common, as besides Mike Quinn's, they have a couple at a surplus shop up in Santa Rosa as well... -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 1 10:41:37 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: RL-02 Question In-Reply-To: <9806010141.ZM25236@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 1, 98 00:41:36 am Message-ID: <9806011441.AA04774@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 525 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/845932bc/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 1 10:47:28 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: RL-02 proves me an Idiot! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 31, 98 09:13:27 pm Message-ID: <9806011447.AA11192@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1190 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/fb4ce159/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jun 1 10:01:15 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: Anyone have a TS-11 bootstrap? Message-ID: <13360333029.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I'll be needing this soon... ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 1 11:10:07 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: Anyone have a TS-11 bootstrap? In-Reply-To: <13360333029.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 1, 98 08:01:15 am Message-ID: <9806011510.AA10410@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 342 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/3ea9a57d/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jun 1 10:13:08 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: Anyone have a TS-11 bootstrap? In-Reply-To: <9806011510.AA10410@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <13360335192.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [What's wrong with the ones on etc...] I thought TS11 was different from TU80 etc... ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jun 1 10:17:41 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? Message-ID: <13360336018.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Ours did that Friday, and the servers aren't happy with it. I'm heading in now to clean the mess up. Just out of curiosity, is there an actual term for this? Does it sounds like BS? And, what do you think it did to the MicroVAXen... We were told this was what had happened by the power company, does it sound like BS or what? ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 1 11:28:22 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <13360336018.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 1, 98 08:17:41 am Message-ID: <9806011528.AA09726@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1317 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/e48d9e14/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jun 1 10:45:16 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <9806011528.AA09726@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <13360341042.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [MicroVAXes don't care]... Ahh, good thing. [What did it become?] Who knows hertz and 60 volts. A serviceman across the hall did something nasty to the transformer servicing the building when trying to re-route power for a remodeling job. Yes, they're the same ones who cut our power for 2 hours because 'We had UPSes, right?' [When you get to the machine room, power line monitors etc.] Don't make me laugh! Our machine room is a closet. (Serious! I'll take a picture sometime!) This is an ISP, not a national distribution center or something... Oh, and who uses 400hz for line frequency? I am officially here, by the way. CILCO is still yelling at A&B Construction (Or whomever they were...) and my boss wants to go help. The machines seemed to care more about halving the line voltage (Which I wasn't told about) than the frequency change... ------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jun 1 11:10:57 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <13360336018.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980601111057.49971750@intellistar.net> Sounds like BS to me! Power companies control their frequency VERY closely. They frequently drop the voltage some under HEAVY laods like major snow storms but I've never heard of them changing the frequency. Besides the frequency shouldn't affect your computer, unless it's WAY off. Joe At 08:17 AM 6/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >Ours did that Friday, and the servers aren't happy with it. I'm heading in now >to clean the mess up. Just out of curiosity, is there an actual term for this? >Does it sounds like BS? And, what do you think it did to the MicroVAXen... > >We were told this was what had happened by the power company, does it sound >like BS or what? >------- > From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 1 12:34:30 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <13360341042.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [MicroVAXes don't care]... > Ahh, good thing. > > [What did it become?] > Who knows hertz and 60 volts. A serviceman across the hall did something > nasty to the transformer servicing the building when trying to re-route > power for a remodeling job. Yes, they're the same ones who cut our power > for 2 hours because 'We had UPSes, right?' If the problem was caused by some inept serviceman mucking about with a transformer, it is highly unlikely that there was any change in the line frequency. - don > [When you get to the machine room, power line monitors etc.] > Don't make me laugh! Our machine room is a closet. > (Serious! I'll take a picture sometime!) > This is an ISP, not a national distribution center or something... > > Oh, and who uses 400hz for line frequency? > > I am officially here, by the way. CILCO is still yelling at A&B Construction > (Or whomever they were...) and my boss wants to go help. The machines > seemed to care more about halving the line voltage (Which I wasn't told > about) than the frequency change... > ------- > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 1 13:52:22 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <13360341042.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 1, 98 08:45:16 am Message-ID: <9806011752.AA13775@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 572 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/6a0ad1f3/attachment.ksh From ecloud at goodnet.com Mon Jun 1 13:37:42 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: Copyrights Re: EC-1 (was Re: Re[2]: Computer Values) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980530101032.4eb74a28@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at May 30, 98 10:10:32 am Message-ID: <199806011837.LAA01244@goodnet.com> > don't the copyright laws ban copying FOR PURPOSES OF COMMERCIAL PROFIT? > and NOT for personal non-profit use? If so, then you or I are free to copy > someone else's manual FOR OUR OWN USE. > > I think this not copying stuff because of copy rights has been carried > to a rediculous extreme. I know people that won't copy an ad brochure > because it's copyrighted. Well obviously the company that wrote it did so > for the purposes of having the public read it. Surely they won't object to > having even more copies made and even more people read it! Sure, if somebody asked me for a single copy of a HK manual and I felt like spending the next half hour at Kinko's, that is next to impossible to get into trouble over. But I was talking about scanning and OCRing them and putting them on the web where they belong. That would put whoever is selling the dead-tree editions out of business, potentially, and I think they would object to that. I have put a copule non-heathkit manuals on my web page and gotten away with it so far. But in neither case was it hurting anybody's sales, in fact in one case it might improve them. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * artificial intelligence * alternative energy * Gravis Ultrasound * Khoros * From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 1 14:06:45 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa "Re: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else?" (Jun 1, 10:52) References: <9806011752.AA13775@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <9806012006.ZM29493@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 1, 10:52, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Oh, and who uses 400hz for line frequency? > > Common AC distribution voltage on aircraft and other weight-is-important > vehicles. And on some IBM mainframes, I believe. A friend of mine obtained a 360, and was most upset when the previous owner decided to keep the 50Hz-to-400Hz converters. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 1 14:03:58 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: RL-02 Question In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa "Re: RL-02 Question" (Jun 1, 7:41) References: <9806011441.AA04774@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <9806012003.ZM29489@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 1, 7:41, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Even then, it only does 18-bit DMA, so whether it's useful depends on the > > O/S -- RSX11 and Unix manage fine > > Really? Which version RSX11M? Which Unix? Certainly the recent versions > of 11M+, as well as 2.10 and 2.11BSD, will crash very badly if you use > them on a system with more than 124 kWords of memory and a RLV11. My RSX11M 3.2 and 4.1 manage fine. AFAIR, it's supported -- it's certainly in the manual somewhere. The driver understands that it has to be careful about using the bottom 124K words for disk access. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jun 1 14:49:39 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <9806011752.AA13775@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <13360341042.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980601144939.492706a8@intellistar.net> At 10:52 AM 6/1/98 -0800, you wrote: > >> Oh, and who uses 400hz for line frequency? > >Common AC distribution voltage on aircraft and other weight-is-important >vehicles. Oddly enough a lot of the HP stuff is spec'd to run on 50 to 440 Hz. I'm not sure why unless it's to allow it to also be used in aircraft but that doesn't seem likely. Joe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 1 16:14:04 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980601144939.492706a8@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 1, 98 02:49:39 pm Message-ID: <9806012014.AA12979@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 949 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/20e1bebe/attachment.ksh From crf at stoneweb.com Mon Jun 1 15:23:48 1998 From: crf at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? Message-ID: <199806012023.AA23932@maddog.swec.com> On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 14:49:39 rigdonj@intellistar.net remarked: > Oddly enough a lot of the HP stuff is spec'd to run on 50 to > 440 Hz. I'm not sure why unless it's to allow it to also be used > in aircraft but that doesn't seem likely. Shipboard applications are frequently run at 440 Hz as well as aircraft; it's quite common in military environments as it keeps the transformers small. Actually, I believe it's 400 Hz, not 440, but whats a few ticks between friends? On a similar note, ferroresonant transformers can do some very bizarre things when offered a mains frequency they weren't designed for. DG's Eclipse S/230 uses a single resonant transformer, rectifiers, and filter caps for its power supply and little else. The specifications call for a mains frequency deviation of under 1/2 Hz in either direction. However, if the frequency is good, the regulation that the supply gives is quite remarkable. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Jun 1 15:59:52 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: Spring CP/M-UG N.W. Swap Meet this Saturday Message-ID: For those in the N.W. Oregon / S.W. Washington area (or those inclined to drive a bit) B^} The 'n'th Annual Spring edition of the CP/M-UG Swap Meet will occur on Saturday June 6th, on Rose Festival Parade day just as always. It will be held in the lower level of the Senior Citizens Center on Omera, just south of the Tigard (Oregon) City Hall on Hall Blvd. (not too hard to reach from I-5 or Hwy-217) As always, it's Free, Easy, and Non-Fattening! (except perhaps to your wallet or garage, depening on your approach!) Bring your Junk, your Treasures, and your Wallet! The only rule is... Leave Nothing Behind! (NO garbage service!) Address: 8815 S.W. Omera (Just south of Fanno Creek on Hall Blvd.) Tigard, OR. Hours: 0800 to 1500 or whenever the good stuff runs out! (8am to 3pm for the layfolk) Fees: No charge! (we pass the hat for contributions) NOTE: Tailgating is encouraged! Some of the best deals are made in the parking lot! (before, during, and after!) See you there! --- For additional details, (directions, etc.) call Gary @ Oregon Electronics (503) 293-5293 or drop me a e-mail. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 1 16:48:20 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: IBM stuff Message-ID: <19980601214820.24404.qmail@hotmail.com> And then WYSE can post their patents and try to sue them both! > >John, > > Hey, that really looks great! I heard a while back that IBM was going to >post all of their patents on the net. Now if HP will just do the same! > > Joe > >At 07:56 PM 5/31/98 -0400, you wrote: >>Hey Joe, >>Check this out!! I was looking for an IBM web site that might have your >>SCSI drive infomation on it when I stumbled upon this!! Boy...it's been a >>long time since I thought about this stuff!! >> >>http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4541168 >> >>John >> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 1 17:17:19 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: >Xerox PARC is giving one final demonstration of the original Xerox Star >workstation built in 1981. This may be the last time it gets >demoed, as the hardware has begun failing due to its age. Don't miss >this opportunity to witness one of the most important steps ever taken in the >history of computing and user interface design. > > Final Demo of the Xerox Star Workstation > 5:30 to 7:00pm > Wednesday June 17th > Auditorium Xerox PARC > > > Unquestionably, one of the major design innovations of this century >has been the Graphical User Interface, with its desktop, icons, pop-up >and pull-down menus and ubiquitous windows. The explosion of computer usage >in the last decade has in large part been made possible through this simpler >and more direct method of user interaction. > > Though millions of people around the world are now using GUIs, few >outside of the Human/Computer Interaction field or the Silicon Valley >are aware of the history of the its design prior to the introduction >of the Macintosh in 1984. > > The first GUI ever developed was the work of Dr. Douglas Englebart, >a researcher at SRI (the Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA) in the >mid-1960s. His visionary and pioneering design and prototypes succeeded in >producing the world's first screen-based windows, cursor-selectable pop-up >menus, as well as the mouse with which to interact with them. > > Though these innovations were truly revolutionary, it was not until >a decade later when researchers at the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) >began systematically studying this system in a commericial development effort. >The Xerox Alto personal computer workstation was developed in the late 70's >and included a mouse pointing system. This system influenced later systems >such as Bravo, which was developed at Xerox PARC by Bruce Lampson and included >an integrated editor formatter. Later systems included Markup, Draw, and Star. > > Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) has been a cradle of Silicon >Valley innovation for 25 years. Its research spans domains from atoms >to anthropology, from its solid-state physics lab, which develops new >laser diodes for use in printers and copiers, to the group that studies >work practices and their possible impact on current and future products. > > Located in the Stanford University Industrial Park in the heart of >Silicon Valley, PARC was charged upon its founding in 1970 to the >"architect of the information age". Since then it has delivered into >use such significant pieces of the current information infrastructure >as laser printers, graphical user interfaces, object-oriented >programming languages, and Ethernet local area networks. PARC has >contributed to user interfaces, electronic components, embedded >software and architectures for each new line of Xerox copiers, >printers, and systems reprographics products. > > > > Directions to Xerox PARC > >>From Highway 101, take the Oregon Expressway exit west 2 miles to >El Camino Real. Oregon Expressway becomes Page Mill Road at El Camino. Follow >Page Mill Road 1.7 miles to Coyote Hill Road (no light) and turn left. Coyote >Hill Road is just past the intersection with >Foothill Expressway. Go one-half mile and PARC will be on your left. >Follow the signs to the auditorium. > >>From Interstate 280, take the Page Mill Road exit. Go east one mile >to Coyote Hill Road (no light) and turn right. Go one-half mile and >PARC will be on your left. Follow the signs to the auditorium. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 14:58:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pa In-Reply-To: <199806010352.XAA16422@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at May 31, 98 11:55:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1528 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/895c7632/attachment.ksh From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 1 17:28:11 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be videotapes available? thanks Kai -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 3:17 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Final Xerox Star demo >Xerox PARC is giving one final demonstration of the original Xerox Star >workstation built in 1981. This may be the last time it gets >demoed, as the hardware has begun failing due to its age. Don't miss >this opportunity to witness one of the most important steps ever taken in the >history of computing and user interface design. > > Final Demo of the Xerox Star Workstation > 5:30 to 7:00pm > Wednesday June 17th > Auditorium Xerox PARC > > > Unquestionably, one of the major design innovations of this century >has been the Graphical User Interface, with its desktop, icons, pop-up >and pull-down menus and ubiquitous windows. The explosion of computer usage >in the last decade has in large part been made possible through this simpler >and more direct method of user interaction. > > Though millions of people around the world are now using GUIs, few >outside of the Human/Computer Interaction field or the Silicon Valley >are aware of the history of the its design prior to the introduction >of the Macintosh in 1984. > > The first GUI ever developed was the work of Dr. Douglas Englebart, >a researcher at SRI (the Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA) in the >mid-1960s. His visionary and pioneering design and prototypes succeeded in >producing the world's first screen-based windows, cursor-selectable pop-up >menus, as well as the mouse with which to interact with them. > > Though these innovations were truly revolutionary, it was not until >a decade later when researchers at the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) >began systematically studying this system in a commericial development effort. >The Xerox Alto personal computer workstation was developed in the late 70's >and included a mouse pointing system. This system influenced later systems >such as Bravo, which was developed at Xerox PARC by Bruce Lampson and included >an integrated editor formatter. Later systems included Markup, Draw, and Star. > > Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) has been a cradle of Silicon >Valley innovation for 25 years. Its research spans domains from atoms >to anthropology, from its solid-state physics lab, which develops new >laser diodes for use in printers and copiers, to the group that studies >work practices and their possible impact on current and future products. > > Located in the Stanford University Industrial Park in the heart of >Silicon Valley, PARC was charged upon its founding in 1970 to the >"architect of the information age". Since then it has delivered into >use such significant pieces of the current information infrastructure >as laser printers, graphical user interfaces, object-oriented >programming languages, and Ethernet local area networks. PARC has >contributed to user interfaces, electronic components, embedded >software and architectures for each new line of Xerox copiers, >printers, and systems reprographics products. > > > > Directions to Xerox PARC > >>From Highway 101, take the Oregon Expressway exit west 2 miles to >El Camino Real. Oregon Expressway becomes Page Mill Road at El Camino. Follow >Page Mill Road 1.7 miles to Coyote Hill Road (no light) and turn left. Coyote >Hill Road is just past the intersection with >Foothill Expressway. Go one-half mile and PARC will be on your left. >Follow the signs to the auditorium. > >>From Interstate 280, take the Page Mill Road exit. Go east one mile >to Coyote Hill Road (no light) and turn right. Go one-half mile and >PARC will be on your left. Follow the signs to the auditorium. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 15:47:05 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <9806011528.AA09726@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 1, 98 08:28:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 648 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/7e976647/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 15:35:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:15 2005 Subject: RL-02 Question In-Reply-To: <9806011323.AA05240@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 1, 98 06:23:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1023 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/267744dd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 15:12:00 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: RL02 Me 2 In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at May 31, 98 06:16:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1335 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/049ebb27/attachment.ksh From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Mon Jun 1 17:33:31 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: <19980601172718.7e03626a.in@insidermarketing.com> >Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be videotapes >available? > >thanks > >Kai > >-----Original Message----- >From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] >Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 3:17 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Final Xerox Star demo > > >>Xerox PARC is giving one final demonstration of the original Xerox Star >>workstation built in 1981. This may be the last time it gets >>demoed, as the hardware has begun failing due to its age. Don't miss >>this opportunity to witness one of the most important steps ever taken in >>the history of computing and user interface design. Better yet, has anyone given thought to the viability of building a Star emulator? How fast could those things have been? --Larry From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 15:39:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <13360336018.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 1, 98 08:17:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1136 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/f1e6fe25/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 15:44:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <13360341042.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 1, 98 08:45:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1442 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/16a626c7/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 1 17:41:35 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pa Message-ID: <19980601224136.1902.qmail@hotmail.com> What exactly does alignment entail? What part is getting misaligned? Does this happen to any other type of drive (CD-ROM, HDD,etc.) >> > It's better to get the right alignment disk, though >> > >> With the current price of fdds so low, it's hard to justify buying something >> that I would rarely use. > >Probably true for PCs, although I've found _new_ cheap fdds to be >misaligned. I check them befroe installation, you see. > >Definitely untrue for classic computers :-), where you either want to >keep as many parts original as possible, or need a floppy drive that's no >longer made e.g. 80 track 300 rpm 5.25". Yes, some 1.2Mbyte drives _can_ >be kludged to rotate slower, but it's not always obvious what to do. And >service manuals for cheap fdds are not available. > >> > Are you sure? Putting 12V where 5V should go is a bad idea, and I wasn't >> > aware that Atari drives had the connector backwards. >> > >> Yeah this is pretty well documented in the Atari threads. This isn't true for >> all brands however but I've never heard of any voltage conflicts. It's a 4 pin >> connecter and I wasn't aware of it also having 12v available on that connecter. >> Apparently most fdd brands will work 720 or 1440 but HD is not available >> without a modification, I just got unlucky with the one I bought. > >The standard pinout of the 4 pin power connector (both 5.25" and 3.5" >types) is ground on the middle 2 pins and +5V, +12V on the outside 2. >Some 3.5" drives (but by no means all!) are +5V only, and the +12V pin is >unused. My ST is hard to get to, and I don't have a service manual, so I >can't check to see what it does. > >> lwalker@interlog.com > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 1 17:41:57 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: <19980601172718.7e03626a.in@insidermarketing.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Larry Groebe wrote: > >Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be videotapes > >available? > > > >thanks > > > >Kai > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] > >Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 3:17 PM > >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Subject: Final Xerox Star demo > > > > > >>Xerox PARC is giving one final demonstration of the original Xerox Star > >>workstation built in 1981. This may be the last time it gets > >>demoed, as the hardware has begun failing due to its age. Don't miss > >>this opportunity to witness one of the most important steps ever taken in > >>the history of computing and user interface design. > > > Better yet, has anyone given thought to the viability of building a Star > emulator? How fast could those things have been? Not terribly. IIRC, there was a discernable lag between keystroke and the appearance of the character on the monitor screen! - don > --Larry > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 1 17:48:19 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? Message-ID: <19980601224819.23717.qmail@hotmail.com> Who exactly decided that there was a frequency change? It seems strange that they could have known if there are no monitors to check and this is not a central problem. Of course, if this was a resonant transformer and the guy shorted it, or he hooked the transformer to a portable generator that the construction company was using, or he temporarily powered it with a solenoid using a jackhammer for a slug... >> Who knows hertz and 60 volts. A serviceman across the hall did something > >Let me guess. 60Hz and 60V. It's very difficult (I'd say impossible, but >then somebody will find a way !) to change mains frequency by miswiring a >transformer. Voltage, sure. > >Actually, I do have a device somewhere that provides the 25Hz for UK >telephone bells from the AC mains. It contains a transformer with a >winding resonated to 25Hz by a capacitor. And it's 'kicked' into >oscillations by a 50Hz mains winding on the same core. But that's hardly >the sort of thing you can make 'by accident'. > >> [When you get to the machine room, power line monitors etc.] >> Don't make me laugh! Our machine room is a closet. > >That doesn't prevent you having power line monitors. > >> Oh, and who uses 400hz for line frequency? > >I've seen it used on aircraft equipment (small, light transformers and >smoothing caps). Didn't IBM use it on some mainframes/minis? > >> >> I am officially here, by the way. CILCO is still yelling at A&B Construction >> (Or whomever they were...) and my boss wants to go help. The machines >> seemed to care more about halving the line voltage (Which I wasn't told > >Oh, indeed. Halving the line voltage will cause all sorts of problems. >Few power supplies can cope with that and give the rated outputs. > >> about) than the frequency change... >> ------- >> > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Jun 1 17:49:54 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: RL02 Me 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok on the RL02 Ready Light lens caps being the drive number determining means... actually pretty clever, if not a little obscure.. but know I know. I have read the archives re: the jumper cut; I will look this evening and severit if need be. Thanks for the sw settings on the 9312; I have them wrong. NOTE: I am actively soliciting the documentation for the RL02, the RL11, and the 9312.. I will buy, pay for copies, or trade goodies... ALSO I need a 9trk formatter for the Kennedy 9300.. Cheers John From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 1 17:50:33 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: <19980601225033.10740.qmail@hotmail.com> What processor did it use? Also, what will be done to the machine after the "last run"? >On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Larry Groebe wrote: > >> >Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be videotapes >> >available? >> > >> >thanks >> > >> >Kai >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] >> >Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 3:17 PM >> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >Subject: Final Xerox Star demo >> > >> > >> >>Xerox PARC is giving one final demonstration of the original Xerox Star >> >>workstation built in 1981. This may be the last time it gets >> >>demoed, as the hardware has begun failing due to its age. Don't miss >> >>this opportunity to witness one of the most important steps ever taken in >> >>the history of computing and user interface design. >> >> >> Better yet, has anyone given thought to the viability of building a Star >> emulator? How fast could those things have been? > >Not terribly. IIRC, there was a discernable lag between keystroke and >the appearance of the character on the monitor screen! > > - don >> --Larry >> > > donm@cts.com >*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 >*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj > visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm > with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 1 17:50:48 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be videotapes > available? Try Shelley Correia @ 650/812-4126. -- Doug From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 1 17:53:15 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: | -----Original Message----- | From: Larry Groebe [mailto:lgroebe@insidermarketing.com] | Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 3:34 PM | To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers | Subject: Re: Final Xerox Star demo | | Better yet, has anyone given thought to the viability of building a Star | emulator? I've got one! It's called an "Apple Lisa" :) Kai From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Jun 1 18:29:55 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Books Message-ID: <006901bd8db6$6a0022c0$6e21a7cd@bothell> On Sun, 31 May 1998 09:39:22 -0500, John Foust wrote: >>I think Gates & Allen's first "company" was "Traf-o-data", run on >>someone else's PDP equipment. I recall it was analyzing traffic >>data. I only remember because about the same time, I was doing >>nearly the same thing as my Eagle Scout project, summarizing >>traffic and accident data for a city. Gates and Foust, the >>ominous parallels, oh yeah. :-) I thought that it was a custom piece of hardware that they used. Maybe that was the front-end. The book "Gates" is in the attic;I'll have to get it. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking Collector of classic computers <<<========== Reply Separator ==========>>> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 17:41:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <199806012023.AA23932@maddog.swec.com> from "Carl R. Friend" at Jun 1, 98 04:23:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1033 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980601/794d2d47/attachment.ksh From engine at chac.org Mon Jun 1 19:22:19 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980601172219.00a55ba0@pop.batnet.com> At 15:28 6/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be videotapes >available? Me too please? I'll be in New York on the 17th.... __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 1 19:27:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? Message-ID: <199806020027.AA10949@world.std.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 1, 98 03:50:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980602/3bbf9d29/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 19:49:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: RL02 Me 2 In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jun 1, 98 03:49:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 860 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980602/c539fd3e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 19:28:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: <19980601172718.7e03626a.in@insidermarketing.com> from "Larry Groebe" at Jun 1, 98 05:33:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 793 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980602/cde6f8cf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 19:45:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to In-Reply-To: <19980601224136.1902.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 1, 98 03:41:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3292 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980602/a1acb498/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 20:10:35 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes In-Reply-To: <199806020027.AA10949@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 1, 98 08:27:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1093 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980602/6cb23f70/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 1 20:08:59 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <13360341042.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <9806011528.AA09726@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: >Oh, and who uses 400hz for line frequency? Most of the Navy's computers used to be 400Hz onboard ship. I started out as an Electrician onboard ship for 3 1/2 hellish years and had to work on the Frequency converters. BIG water cooled suckers. Then I got smart and switched over to computers. Just before I got smart and got out I was working on a system that was about half 400Hz, so when we lost 400Hz, the system would look like it was up, but wasn't. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 1 21:21:24 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Microprocessors and who made them? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 May 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Is there a reference somewhere listing all the different microprocessors > ever made and who the designers were? Preferrably such a list would > include a way (or hint of a way) to contact the designer of said > microprocessor. There's a good interview with a guy (Shima) who had a hand in the design of the 4004, 8008, 8080, Z80, and Z8000: http://engine.ieee.org/history_center/oral_histories/transcripts/shima.html -- Doug From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Jun 1 21:39:30 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Larry's Excellent Adventure References: <199806010702.AAA10910@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <357365E2.82C451A6@goldrush.com> Haven't had all that much thrifting lately so I have been pretty quiet. I just wanted to post about my jaunt to San Jose last weekend (for those of you not familiar with the region it is pretty much the center of what they call Silicon Valley). First off for those of you who live in the area, you guys drive like maniacs, you know there things called 'speed limits' and many cars are equipped with a 'turn signal' to signal switching lanes. Ok back on topic (if this were very much on topic), while my wife attended the 'Rubberama Rubber Stamp Show' I had the opportunity to check out 'theTech Museum of Innovation' It was very facinating obviously it has been supported by Intel with a mock-up clean room displaying the processes of making chips with examples, machine displays and videos. (you can even buy shiny 'bunny-suit' dolls in the gift shop) Also there was a rather interesting section on robotics, some on recycling, and a section devoted to space exploration but save for a few snapshots (of Woz's workbench and HP's garage) there was not any classic computers to be seen *sigh*. Oh and an internet/computer instruction center too, but I didn't spend much time there. The said some of the exhibits are on the new building (scheduled to be opened October 31st) so if you are thinking of visiting in the future you may want to wait. I did pick up an interesting souviner, a small hunk of processed silicon (looks like leftovers from the vats where they form the ingots). I only bought one and now think I sould have stocked up - for stocking stuffers and the like (Hey, if any of you volunteer there or go by the museum, could I get you to purchase some more for me? please???) So six bucks gets you adult admission. If you are interested in the chip manufacturing process and want to see some robots and stuff I think it's worth the money (and if you are too cheap for $6.00 at least you can see the billiard ball display just outside the entrance.) Oh, here's the web address for more details on the place: http://www.thetech.org/ -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From desieh at southcom.com.au Mon Jun 1 21:43:32 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: <006301bd8dd0$3c559e80$fa173ccb@mr-ibm> Well if they arent keeping it, it should go to a museum like the one at Boston..... One question though, wasent the Xerox 820 basically the same as the Alto? -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 8:53 Subject: Re: Final Xerox Star demo > > > > >What processor did it use? >Also, what will be done to the machine after the "last run"? >>On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Larry Groebe wrote: >> >>> >Is there someone to contact by phone to see if there will be >videotapes >>> >available? >>> > >>> >thanks >>> > >>> >Kai >>> > >>> >-----Original Message----- >>> >From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] >>> >Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 3:17 PM >>> >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >>> >Subject: Final Xerox Star demo >>> > >>> > >>> >>Xerox PARC is giving one final demonstration of the original Xerox >Star >>> >>workstation built in 1981. This may be the last time it gets >>> >>demoed, as the hardware has begun failing due to its age. Don't >miss >>> >>this opportunity to witness one of the most important steps ever >taken in >>> >>the history of computing and user interface design. >>> >>> >>> Better yet, has anyone given thought to the viability of building a >Star >>> emulator? How fast could those things have been? >> >>Not terribly. IIRC, there was a discernable lag between keystroke and >>the appearance of the character on the monitor screen! >> >> - don >>> --Larry >>> >> >> donm@cts.com >>*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >> Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives >> Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society >> Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. >> Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 >>*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* >> see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj >> visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm >> with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm >> >> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From dcoward at pressstart.com Mon Jun 1 22:17:36 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Remembering BYTE acticles Message-ID: <19980601201736.1ea837a1.in@mail.pressstart.com> >> I took out from the library a sort of collection: 20 years of byte >> with some historic articles, ads ,etc. from BYTE's point of view in >> 1994. I liked the timeline, but the articles are very boring and >> technical. >Hey - I think you'll find that most of us liked the "boring and >technical" articles better than the drivel they've been >publishing since the mid-80's ! I build one of those projects from BYTE in about 1984. A project for the Commodore 64. It was just two precision resistor networks connected through CMOS drivers to the address lines of the C64. One network for the lower 8 address lines and one for the upper 8. When the two networks were connected to the XY inputs of a oscilloscope, you had a 256 by 256 pixel display of where in memory the 6510 was executing. I was making my living breaking the protection on disk software at the time and this cartridge came in real handy for determining where code was being loaded into memory. I also started writing a TIC-TAC-TOE game for use with the cartridge. The program would place JMP instructions in different parts of memory to draw the TIC-TAC-TOE squares, Xs,and Os on the oscilloscope. Sort of a vector graphic version. I had alot more time on my hands back then. ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 1 22:02:17 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: PDP-11/73 Boots!!!! Message-ID: YAHOO!!!! Thanks to the bootstrap that Tim posted I just booted one of my SMS-1000's off of a RL-02. Turns out it's running "RSX-11M 4.2 BL38B", on the down side I've no idea what the login/password are :^( BTW neither SMS-1000 that I've got has boot ROM's that support a RL02. Not surprising since their S/N's seem to be sequencial :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Jun 1 22:06:55 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <199806012023.AA23932@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: <199806020306.NAA05596@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 04:23 PM 01-06-98 -0400, Carl R. Friend wrote: > Shipboard applications are frequently run at 440 Hz as well as >aircraft; it's quite common in military environments as it keeps the >transformers small. Actually, I believe it's 400 Hz, not 440, but >whats a few ticks between friends? As the topic drifts away from computers, I've just got to ask how they isolate equipment running at 440Hz (or 400Hz). 50Hz hum is bad enough, but 440Hz is rather noticeable. Of course, for those of us with perfect pitch, we'd notice line frequency changes of a few 10s of Hz. Perhaps I should volunteer for aircraft line frequency monitor :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 1 23:31:04 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: RSX-11M Primer? Message-ID: Well, I'm in, I'm excited :^) , and I'm clueless :^( Is there any kind of RSX-11M primer online anywhere? So far I've figured out "TIME" and "DIR" :^) What I'd really like to do is transfer the system from the RL-02 pack to the /73's internal Hard Drive. I'd really like to slim the /73 down, and the RL02 is more than twice as big as the /73 :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 1 23:33:59 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > On a similar note, ferroresonant transformers can do some very > > bizarre things when offered a mains frequency they weren't designed > > for. DG's Eclipse S/230 uses a single resonant transformer, rectifiers, > > and filter caps for its power supply and little else. The specifications > > call for a mains frequency deviation of under 1/2 Hz in either > > direction. However, if the frequency is good, the regulation that > > the supply gives is quite remarkable. > > Well, late versions of the power supply for the DRI/Diablo Model 30 disk > drives (AKA DEC RK02 and RK03) used a ferroresonant transformer. It > provided the +15V and -15V lines (the former was regulated conventionally > for the +5V line, I think). There was no other regulation on these lines, > which supplied most of the analogue circuitry and the motors in these > drives. Only drive I ever saw that used a DC permanent magnet motor and a > rack and pinion drive as the head positioner... Tony, the Miniscribe 84nn series used a stepping motor and a rack and pinion as a head positioner, also. There are a few others, but the make/model do not come to mind. - don > > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | > > -tony > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 1 23:54:39 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: <006301bd8dd0$3c559e80$fa173ccb@mr-ibm> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Desie Hay wrote: > Well if they arent keeping it, it should go to a museum like the one at > Boston..... > > One question though, wasent the Xerox 820 basically the same as the Alto? Hell no! It was a lot more like the Kaypro 2/4 in an igloo!!! - don **** snip **** donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jun 2 00:29:10 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Processing data in blocks Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980601163829.70af616a@ricochet.net> At 07:55 PM 5/28/98 -0700, you wrote: >The terminal acts as a buffer for the data, not for the keyboard. The >keyboard is used to make changes to the data in the buffer and >initiate the transfer of the changed data back to the 3000. The >keystrokes themselves don't get sent to the 3000, only the edited >data. It's not a dead concept, either. Wanna see it in use? Go to . The form (aka web page) is downloaded to your terminal (aka browser), you enter your data, make changes/edits, and then transfer the data (aka submit) to the host system (aka web server). Same thing, only with prettier graphics and much slower. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jun 2 00:29:06 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to pa Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980601162419.70b7ccea@ricochet.net> At 03:12 PM 5/28/98 +0000, you wrote: > On a related note, I have 3 Atari STs all with failed fdds. Any tips on >re-alligning these with-out the rather expensive reallign equipment ? Quite a If they're the later models with the rectangular eject button in the normal place (rather than earlier models with the parallelogram? (/___/) button) you can just replace them with any old 720K drive. Other than that, you can use external drives; there should be (somewhere on the web) a diagram for making the FDD-to-ST cable. Connectors are available. (Or you can buy a cable from BEST Elect. in San Jose(?) or elsewhere.) And while we're on the subject, has anyone figured out how to use a standard PC/Teac fdd with a mac? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jun 2 00:29:21 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Insanely Great Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980601174221.641f8664@ricochet.net> At 06:46 PM 5/29/98 -0700, you wrote: >> 2)It mentioned a "new input device" that was before the Xerox machine, >> to be used alongside the mouse, was flexible but required training. >> What was it? > >That probably referred to the "chord" keyboard. It allowed you to type >with one hand. I remember a PC keyboard replacement that was a one-handed keyboard; it used combinations of buttons to replace all the individual letter keys. I remember thinking it was a good idea, and could be used perhaps (or expanded) for other languages like chinese. Anyway, I seem to remember that it was supposed to be easy to learn. Was it? was it the "Chord" keyboard Sam mentioned, or were there others? Are they still available? Is there any advantage? I'm thinking that it would be a good option for situations where a) space is at a premium (laptops) or b) one's hands are engaged elsewhere. (No, I wasn't thinking of *that*! (I'm not that much of a nerd!) I was thinking of vehicle/equipment control sorts of things.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Jun 2 08:41:31 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? References: <199806012023.AA23932@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: <3574010B.9562BF6E@bbtel.com> Carl R. Friend wrote: > On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 14:49:39 rigdonj@intellistar.net remarked: > > > Oddly enough a lot of the HP stuff is spec'd to run on 50 to > > 440 Hz. I'm not sure why unless it's to allow it to also be used > > in aircraft but that doesn't seem likely. > > Shipboard applications are frequently run at 440 Hz as well as > aircraft; it's quite common in military environments as it keeps the > transformers small. Actually, I believe it's 400 Hz, not 440, but > whats a few ticks between friends? It's generally 400 (plus or minus 50) hz for aircraft and associated equipment (missiles for instance). Our test equipment racks for Air Launched Cruise Missiles had a HP 1000 computer tied to an IEEE 488 interface and all of that ran from a motor-generator that took 3 phase 220 volt @ 60hz to power an electric motor that turned a generator similar to an aircraft's engine driven generator. The biggest advantage of the higher cycle rate is smaller packages and cooler running. Locomotives and (as you stated) larger water craft also use 400hz equipment. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From william at ans.net Tue Jun 2 09:11:48 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: <3574010B.9562BF6E@bbtel.com> Message-ID: > It's generally 400 (plus or minus 50) hz for aircraft and associated > equipment (missiles for instance). Our test equipment racks for Air Launched > Cruise Missiles had a HP 1000 computer tied to an IEEE 488 interface and all > of that ran from a motor-generator that took 3 phase 220 volt @ 60hz to > power an electric motor that turned a generator similar to an aircraft's > engine driven generator. Quite a bit of military equipment actually is rated to 2400 Hz. The reason for this is that some of the pre-1940 aircraft (namely U.S.Navy) used 800 Hz power. There were also probably a few applications that went a bit further in line frequency, but I am not aware of them. Anyway, an amazing amount of this pre-war "junk" stayed in service into the 1970s. If anyone wants a BIG 400Hz convertor from an IBM 3090 installation, there is one in a junkyard in Illinois. It looks to be in the 1500 pound category. > Locomotives [...] also use 400hz equipment. Maybe the new ones, but the old ones used 25 Hz. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 2 10:05:26 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Atari stuff for sale Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980602100526.2f5fc354@intellistar.net> I have the following Atari stuff for sale for the best offer. Atari DOS 3 manual Atari TV switch box Atari game paddles, 2 Atari 800 XL Atari Claim Jumper Game Cartridge in a neat red transparent case Atari book by Wiley Press, Atari BASIC XL edition Email your offers and questions privately. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 2 10:11:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Commodore stuff for sale Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980602101155.2f5f7972@intellistar.net> I have the following Commodore stuff for sale for the best offer. E-mail me privately with your questions and offers. Joe Commodore Vic 20 Commodore Sargon II chess game cartridge with manual Commodore Gorf game cartridge C2N cassette deck 2 Commie joysticks Commie 1520 printer V 20 power supply V 20 TV modulator Slik Stik joystick by Suncom (for V20?) Volks Modem 6420 (for V20?) Vic modem 1600 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 2 11:21:57 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Casio Catalogs FS Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980602112157.3057e018@intellistar.net> I have five Casio calculator catalogs for sale or trade for ?. All are color catalogs and are in excellent condition. 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990 & 1991. E-mail me privately with any questions or offers. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 2 11:19:17 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: More Commodore stuff for sale In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980602101155.2f5f7972@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980602111917.304f6922@intellistar.net> I found two more books that will be included in the heap. Commodore 1541C Disk Drive User's Guide Commodore 1541 Disk Drive User's Guide At 10:11 AM 6/2/98, I wrote: >I have the following Commodore stuff for sale for the best offer. E-mail >me privately with your questions and offers. > > Joe > >Commodore Vic 20 >Commodore Sargon II chess game cartridge with manual >Commodore Gorf game cartridge >C2N cassette deck >2 Commie joysticks >Commie 1520 printer >V 20 power supply >V 20 TV modulator >Slik Stik joystick by Suncom (for V20?) >Volks Modem 6420 (for V20?) >Vic modem 1600 > > > From dastar at wco.com Tue Jun 2 12:27:02 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Time for the FAQ Message-ID: I'm not making a statement or anything by posting the FAQ. It's just been a while so its time for the recent newbies to the list to get a dose of it. ============================================================================= DO NOT DISPOSE OF THIS PART OF THE FAQ. THIS IS THE PART THAT EXPLAINS HOW YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO DO THESE THINGS FOR YOU THAN IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THEM YOURSELF ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 1 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Mail/Internet Basics FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.3 Last Update: 12/10/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 1 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with the use of mailing lists and internet-specific tools. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://haliotis.bothell washington.edu/classiccmp or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as cclpart1.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: Nothing new, cosmetic changes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Mailing Lists ---------------- 1.1 Mailing List Basics 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot How to set to Digest How to Subscribe How to Unsubscribe 2. FTP ------ 2.1 FTP Basics 3. World Wide Web ----------------- 3.1 WWW Basics ============================================================================= 1.1 Mailing List Basics A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution list. 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc@u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 FTP Basics FTP is a protocol by which files can be transferred over the internet. You can use FTP to connect to a remote site and retrieve files. The commands you use with FTP depend on the software you use. In general you must make sure that you are in BINARY mode before transferring a program file or compressed files. The process of downloading a file is usually termed GET and the process of uploading a file is usually termed PUT. Your FTP program will require an address to connect to. For the ClassicCmp site that address is 140.142.225.188. You then may be asked to log in (unless your program assumes an anonymous login). When asked for a name, use anonymous. When asked for a password enter your internet e-mail address. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 WWW Basics The only complicated thing with the WWW is knowing what bells and whistles your web browser supports. You don't really need to know much other than the address for ClassicCmp. The web site is all text which means just about any web browser from the oldest Lynx to the newest Netscape or Microsoft browser should support it. The ClassicCmp site is http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp. ============================================================================= ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 2 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy List Specific FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.3 Last Update: 12/10/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 2 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regular day-to-day issues on the list. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://haliotis.bothell washington.edu/classiccmp or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as cclpart2.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: Added: section 1.8 Changed: section 1.3, 1.5, 1.7, 3.1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? 1.6 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? 1.8 How long has this list been around? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS?!? 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? 2.10 Can I use obscene languagein my posts? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 3.3 Is this list archived? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP Site? Collecting ---------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! ============================================================================= 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail ;) 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? _Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. This definition has come under fire recently but remains the guideline. Remember that it is certainly flexible. The idea is to keep conversation on track, not to restrict what you can talk about. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw@u.washington.edu. 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get back to you eventually. As an update, I've been _really_ hard to reach for the last couple months. Hopefully, this has now changed. Please keep in mind that this list is recreation for me, and I sometimes cannot devote any time to it. This does not indicate a lack of interest in the people or activities involved. 1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? The daily load varies widely from about 20 messages to over 100. Average seems to be about (I haven't checked lately, will update) messages a day. There are times where the message load peaks for as much as a week. 1.8 How long has this list been around? The first message went out March 13, 1997. [][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before posting. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there are members of this list in a number of different countries. If your post is commercial, please be sure to indicate that in some way in the subject line. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to find yourself a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? Some people like to read other peoples' trophy lists, some do not. There have been times when most people have been interested in these and times when many wanted to see them banned. So, they remain - appreciated or tolerated and somewhat controversial. Can't make everyone happy all the time ;) 2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts? Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 210 and changing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Check the web site (see below). The Classic Computer Encyclopedia shows the number of machines registered by subscribers. 3.3 Is this list archived? Yes. The archives are available on the FTP site (see below) in the directory /pub/classiccmp/archive. The file name format indicates the month/year of the archive. Keep in mind that they are quite large. [][][][][][][][][][] 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP site? Yes. Anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188. Look in /pub/classiccmp. There's not much there that's not available on the web site. I'm starting to load old drivers and system disks on occasion. There is an incoming directory which subscribers may use for ClassicCmp-related file transfers if needed. [][][][][][][][][][] 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices but it's unlikely that most will ever be worth more than the cost of their components. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your SO of the rhino and cuter, fuzzier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! Don't worry - you're not the only one. Reading this list, old magazines, books and whatever else you can get your hands on is the first step. Once you reach a critical mass of knowledge thigs get a lot easier. ============================================================================= ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 3 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Technical FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.2 Last Update: 12/10/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 3 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regularly asked questions which are technical in nature. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://haliotis.bothell washington.edu/classiccmp or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.188 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as cclpart3.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: Nothing new, cosmetic changes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. General ------------------ 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 2. Media -------- 2.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 2.4 What disk sizes are there? 2.5 How do I take care of old media? 3. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 3.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 3.3 How about capacitors? 3.4 Anything else? 3.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? 4. Software ----------- 4.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 4.2 What's the best way to back up my software? 5. Specific Problems/Solutions ------------------------------ 5.1 Is it possible to bypass an RF modulator to achieve composite output? ============================================================================= 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, cold (broken) solder joints, bent pins, etc. It may be a good idea to remove and re-seat all socketed components and connectors. If anything burned or overheated it will probably pay to replace it before powering up the unit. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. If you have really cool tools (like a logic analyzer) it has been suggested that you use them to record critical information from those oh-so-hard-to-find custom chips. Specific information on how to do this is beyond the scope of a FAQ, but you probably know what you need to if you own the appropriate tools. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen shop. Running the power supply without a load could result in damage to it. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Recommended commercial products: Purple Stuff from Kragen [for discoloration] Brasso [ink/marker] (can discolor plastic) Antistatic Foam Cleaner from Electrolube [for discoloration/markings] Citra-Solv [for discoloration] (can dissolve plastic if undiluted) Cameo Copper Cleaner [ink/marker] Naptha [for stickers/goop/spooge] (very flammable) 3M GP Adhesive Remover [for stickers/goop/spooge] CRC 226 / CRC 556 [for stickers/goop/spooge] Fulcron [for discoloration] Blue Shower / BS II [for stickers/goop/spooge] Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Recommended commercial products: Electrolube contact cleaning sprays. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. If there is reason not to use a dishwasher (some key labels can come off) it is usually possible to remove each keycap and clean conventionally. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. 3.5 inch disks never came hard-sectored and, in fact, it would not be possible. 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density DD, HD (sometimes work, not advisable!) High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. In the case of quad density no substitution should be considered reliable. DD and HD disks both can be forced to work. One may work better than the other given the peculiarities of various drives. 2.4 What disk sizes are there? Disk Types? Physically? Standard Disks Unique/Proprietary Disks --------------------------------------------------------- 8" (Floppy) 5" (MiniFloppy) 5.25" (MiniFloppy) 3.25" (MicroFloppy) 3.5" (MicroFloppy) 3" (MicroFloppy) 2.5" 2" In addition to odd sizes - there is at least one type of disk which was physically different. "Twiggy" disks for the Apple Lisa 1 were regular 5.25" disks with the exception that they had two read/write windows. One was oriented "north" of the center hole, the other "south". 2.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 3.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 3.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 3.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 3.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows). From mark_k at iname.com Tue Jun 2 13:28:20 1998 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: IBM stuff In-Reply-To: <199806010702.AAA10910@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On 31-May-98, Joe wrote: > Hey, that really looks great! I heard a while back that IBM was going to >post all of their patents on the net. Now if HP will just do the same! The IBM Patent Server (http://www.patents.ibm.com/) contains details and images (at up to 300dpi) of the most recent 23 years of US patents, not just IBM's own. You can easily search for all HP patents using the Boolean Text Search facility. -- Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 2 12:40:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:16 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: <006301bd8dd0$3c559e80$fa173ccb@mr-ibm> from "Desie Hay" at Jun 2, 98 12:43:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980602/a2571b22/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 2 12:44:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Remembering BYTE acticles In-Reply-To: <19980601201736.1ea837a1.in@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at Jun 1, 98 08:17:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 907 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980602/041cb5ea/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 2 12:48:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: What is it called when the 60hz line power becomes something else? In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jun 1, 98 09:33:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 733 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980602/204daef1/attachment.ksh From icyblackhand at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 14:37:27 1998 From: icyblackhand at hotmail.com (Michael Sheflin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: More Commodore stuff for sale Message-ID: <19980602193727.5102.qmail@hotmail.com> How much for the VIC 20? MIKE From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 2 14:50:57 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Is it just me, or are most museums clueless when it comes to electronic > exhibits? I've come across a museum that refuses to complete its PDP8 as > the 2 cards I offered them that they were missing were made a few years > after the the machine itself. This is a machine that was in use and taken > out of service BTW, so it's unlikely that all the cards were original. > Another collection I know about has managed to misplace a PDP12, a > PDP11/70 and all the printsets for them. Losing a board I can understand, > but 6' racks??? No, I don't think it's you. Our local "Museum of Science and Industry" seems to be equally dim to anything that does not have immediate 'infotainment' qualities and that looks like an instant money maker. I (tried) to work with them for over a year on a historical retrospective on computers (basically, all I asked from them was some space and a little publicity). They did not seem to think it was worthwhile by itself so I enlisted the help of an educational team from a local (well known) hi-tech firm. Once there was a 'corporate' name to hang on the banner the museum was much friendlier to the project... Problems arose when scheduling conflicts (and budgeting matters) caused a delay, and later the withdrawl of the 'corporate' folk. Within a couple of weeks of that I got word (second hand, they did not even contact me directly) that the museum "did not have the resources available" to stage this exhibit. Nothing I like better than shooting a year and a half of effort down the tubes... Not to mention the many frustrations during the planning, such aswhen I inquired as to the availability of the large collection of robots (Heath, Androbot, many others) that they had once had in their 'Computer Lab'. They indicated that "they thought" they still had the units, but they were "somewhere in the warehouse storage facility" and no one was inclined to search for them... (sigh) WHAT do you do with these people??? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Jun 2 10:52:54 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to In-Reply-To: References: <19980601224136.1902.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 1, 98 03:41:35 pm Message-ID: <199806021952.PAA24681@smtp.interlog.com> On 2 Jun 98 at 1:45, Tony Duell wrote: > > What exactly does alignment entail? What part is getting misaligned? > > For a floppy driver, there are essentially 4 adjustments that you have to > make to do a full alignment : > > 1) Spindle speed (not on synchronous-motor drives). This one is obvious > > 2) Head radial position. This involves adjusting the head position > radially with respect to the spindle so that it's positioned over the > centre of a data track, and not off to one side. This is the one that > most people mean by 'alignment'. You use a special disk recorded with > ofset tracks, look at the signal from the head on a 'scope and move the > heard (or more correctly the stepper motor) so that the 2 offset tracks > are the same amplitude on the 'scope > > 3) Track 0. You've now got the heads over a track. And you know which > track it is, since the alignement disk only has said pattern on selected > tracks. Now step the head out the appropriate number of tracks and adjust > the track 0 sensor (switch/optoswitch) so that it operates at the right place > > 4) Index timing. This one is not that important, actually, on most > controllers. One track on the alignment disk had a burst of data > positioned accurately wrt the index hole. What you do is read at that > track, look at the index pulse and the data burst on the 'scope and move > the index sensor until the delay between them is right. > > In general only (2) and (3) are that important with modern controllers. > All of them are important on hard-sectored controllers, though. > > > Does this happen to any other type of drive (CD-ROM, HDD,etc.) > > OK... Modern hard disks don't need alignment - they're servo-tracked, and > the head uses information on the disk platters - the so-called servo > bursts - as a position reference. Older demountable hard disks in general > either used one surface of a multi-platter stack for this servo > information (when you have to align the heads wrt each other), or had a > stepping actuator (not, in general as stepper motor, but an actuator that > took its reference from something in the drive and not on the disk), when > you have to align the heads wrt the spindle. You do these like a floppy > drive, with an alignment pack and a 'scope. > > Some older winchesters have a stepper motor. In general there's not a lot > you can do with these other than to low-level format them and keep on > using them. Of course you lose data if you do that. > > CD-ROMs don't need radial alignment as such - they're servo-positioned in > general. The average CD-ROM drive has 3 or 4 servo loops - focus, spindle > speed, radial position (or coarse and fine radial postion). There are > electronic adjustments for these sometimes, and maybe also a laser power > control. Don't fiddle without a service manual!. You set these up like an > audio CD player. > > Tape drives also have alignment adjustments. The old 9-track drives (this > is classiccmp, after all!) have motor speed, tape tension, head skew > (basically angle of the head), sometimes head tilt, tape sensor, etc > adjustments. Even cartridge tape drives have tape speed, head height and > maybe head azimuth adjustments. > > I'll leave paper tape units, card readers, printers, teletypes and > monitors until another time (read : until someone asks about them). > Suffice it to say they all need alignment sometimes. > > -tony > Ahh, I knew you had a fdd "how-to" simmering in there Tony. " ^ )) This one should definitely go in the FAQ. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Jun 2 10:52:55 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to p In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980601162419.70b7ccea@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199806021953.PAA24692@smtp.interlog.com> On 1 Jun 98 at 22:29, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 03:12 PM 5/28/98 +0000, you wrote: > > On a related note, I have 3 Atari STs all with failed fdds. Any tips on > >re-alligning these with-out the rather expensive reallign equipment ? Quite a > > If they're the later models with the rectangular eject button in the normal > place (rather than earlier models with the parallelogram? (/___/) button) > you can just replace them with any old 720K drive. > That might be where I made the mistake. These are the parallellogram types and the 720 Mitsumi I bought is a little smaller in height and has a rectangular eject button. I had heard that a few manu types didn't work but that most did. I'll have to check out comp.sys.atari for the spec on the different models. My external Atari fdds all have the rectangular button. I have several but didn't want to savage them since the fdds are supposed to be easily replaced with IBM types, and even the 1.44 ones will work at 720 without the hi-dens upgrade. > Other than that, you can use external drives; there should be (somewhere on > the web) a diagram for making the FDD-to-ST cable. Connectors are > available. (Or you can buy a cable from BEST Elect. in San Jose(?) or > elsewhere.) > > And while we're on the subject, has anyone figured out how to use a > standard PC/Teac fdd with a mac? > There was a thread on this in the classic mac m-l a while back. IIRC can be done but is a major kludge. Something about the header instructions IBM puts on the disk and drive speed I foggily remember A bigger problem for the Mac+ and earlier is the 800k fdds limit. There was a board that enabled you to use the newer 1.6 hi-density drives. Can't remember the name but I think it's still available. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From red at bears.org Tue Jun 2 14:54:26 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ video Message-ID: Hi. I found an Apple RGB monitor---the one with the electric tilt mechanism---at a thrift store the other day. It was styled like it belonged to some sort of older Apple ][ but I don't know which of them came with RGB output besides the //gs. Certainly not my ][plus! So what's the story on this beast and what did its DB15 connect to? ok r. From icyblackhand at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 15:14:35 1998 From: icyblackhand at hotmail.com (Michael Sheflin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: HELP!!!!!!! Message-ID: <19980602201435.29042.qmail@hotmail.com> I'd like to send a message to all the members of the group, but I don't know how. Could you please send this message: If anyone in the group has an Apple Lisa that they're willing to sell, please contact me at icyblackhand@home.com. Thanks Mike ... and then email me and tell me how to do it, that would be great. Thanks a lot. P.S. Please put the subject as LISA Thanks a lot again. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jun 2 15:17:44 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to p Message-ID: <5cc80ad8.35745dea@aol.com> In a message dated 98-06-02 15:57:21 EDT, you write: << > And while we're on the subject, has anyone figured out how to use a > standard PC/Teac fdd with a mac? >> I dont think it would be possible since the mac varies the drive speed to put more information on the disk. if it were possible, it would be a nonstandard format. david From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jun 2 15:20:47 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ video Message-ID: <492e0d54.35745ea1@aol.com> In a message dated 98-06-02 15:58:47 EDT, you write: << I found an Apple RGB monitor---the one with the electric tilt mechanism---at a thrift store the other day. It was styled like it belonged to some sort of older Apple ][ but I don't know which of them came with RGB output besides the //gs. Certainly not my ][plus! So what's the story on this beast and what did its DB15 connect to? >> i have one also but i dont know anyway of testing mine. i think its called an applecolor 100 rgb monitor or something like that. supposedly it was very expensive when new. the apple /// is able to run it from what ive heard, but my /// isnt working right either. it can be used on a //e with the appropriate adaptor card. anyone know if it's analogue or digital rgb? i never got an image on mine when i tried to connect it to my //c and laser128. david From bwish at pcfa.org Tue Jun 2 15:21:40 1998 From: bwish at pcfa.org (Brett Wish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I found an Apple RGB monitor---the one with the electric tilt > mechanism---at a thrift store the other day. It was styled like it > belonged to some sort of older Apple ][ but I don't know which of them > came with RGB output besides the //gs. Certainly not my ][plus! > > So what's the story on this beast and what did its DB15 connect to? The DB15 will most likely plug into an older Mac, like the LC series. It might even work on a newer one, with the right adapter.. From dastar at wco.com Tue Jun 2 15:21:53 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > I found an Apple RGB monitor---the one with the electric tilt > mechanism---at a thrift store the other day. It was styled like it > belonged to some sort of older Apple ][ but I don't know which of them > came with RGB output besides the //gs. Certainly not my ][plus! > > So what's the story on this beast and what did its DB15 connect to? You need to find an RGB interface for an Apple ][ now. There were a few different ones made, the most popular seeming to be called "Video 7". Its a card that plugs into slot 7 (which in the Apple is tied into some special video circuitry) and has two probes which attach to two points on the motherboard. Good luck. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From dastar at wco.com Tue Jun 2 15:24:02 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: HELP!!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <19980602201435.29042.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Someone needs to update the gateway where these people are getting on and explain to them that however they are posting these messages, it will in fact get distributed to the list. They then need to realize that they are also being subscribed (I assume). On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Michael Sheflin wrote: > I'd like to send a message to all the members of the group, but I don't > know how. Could you please send this message: > > If anyone in the group has an Apple Lisa that they're willing to sell, > please contact me at icyblackhand@home.com. > Thanks > Mike > > ... and then email me and tell me how to do it, that would be great. > Thanks a lot. > P.S. Please put the subject as LISA > Thanks a lot again. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 15:53:13 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: <19980602205313.10411.qmail@hotmail.com> Do you mean the Boston Computer Museum specifically, or someplace else? I find it hard to believe that a computer museum would do something like that! >machines, I'd make sure that _no_ rare/classic computers got anywhere >near that museum! > >Is it just me, or are most museums clueless when it comes to electronic >exhibits? I've come across a museum that refuses to complete its PDP8 as >the 2 cards I offered them that they were missing were made a few years >after the the machine itself. This is a machine that was in use and taken >out of service BTW, so it's unlikely that all the cards were original. >Another collection I know about has managed to misplace a PDP12, a >PDP11/70 and all the printsets for them. Losing a board I can understand, >but 6' racks??? > >> >> One question though, wasent the Xerox 820 basically the same as the Alto? > >Only in the sense that both were computers :-) > >They had different CPUs (z80, as against a custom 16 bit thing), mass >storage (the Alto almost certainly had a hard disk), video (the Alto was >bitmapped), keyboad, OS/user interface, etc. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 2 15:47:51 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: More Commodore stuff for sale In-Reply-To: <19980602193727.5102.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980602154751.3a1fe69a@intellistar.net> Best offer. Joe At 12:37 PM 6/2/98 PDT, you wrote: >How much for the VIC 20? >MIKE > >>From classiccmp-owner@u.washington.edu Tue Jun 2 09:42:14 1998 >>Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) >> by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with >SMTP >> id JAA10101; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:41:34 -0700 >>Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu >[140.142.33.8]) >> by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with >ESMTP >> id JAA70252 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 >09:37:01 -0700 >>Received: from star1.intellistar.net (star1.intellistar.net >[206.105.64.2]) >> by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with >ESMTP >> id JAA18901 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 >09:37:00 -0700 >>Received: from lizard ([206.105.66.54]) by star1.intellistar.net >> (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-41809U2500L250S0) >> with SMTP id AAB10880 for ; >> Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:36:57 -0400 >>Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980602111917.304f6922@intellistar.net> >>Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:19:17 >>Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >>Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >>Precedence: bulk >>From: Joe >>To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > >>Subject: More Commodore stuff for sale >>In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980602101155.2f5f7972@intellistar.net> >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>X-Sender: rigdonj@intellistar.net >>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN >> >>I found two more books that will be included in the heap. >> Commodore 1541C Disk Drive User's Guide >> Commodore 1541 Disk Drive User's Guide >> >>At 10:11 AM 6/2/98, I wrote: >>>I have the following Commodore stuff for sale for the best offer. >E-mail >>>me privately with your questions and offers. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>>Commodore Vic 20 >>>Commodore Sargon II chess game cartridge with manual >>>Commodore Gorf game cartridge >>>C2N cassette deck >>>2 Commie joysticks >>>Commie 1520 printer >>>V 20 power supply >>>V 20 TV modulator >>>Slik Stik joystick by Suncom (for V20?) >>>Volks Modem 6420 (for V20?) >>>Vic modem 1600 >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 2 16:05:19 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: IBM stuff In-Reply-To: References: <199806010702.AAA10910@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980602160519.46370c8e@intellistar.net> At 06:28 PM 6/2/98 +0000, you wrote: >On 31-May-98, Joe wrote: >> Hey, that really looks great! I heard a while back that IBM was going to >>post all of their patents on the net. Now if HP will just do the same! > >The IBM Patent Server (http://www.patents.ibm.com/) contains details and images >(at up to 300dpi) of the most recent 23 years of US patents, not just IBM's >own. You can easily search for all HP patents using the Boolean Text Search >facility. > > >-- Mark Yeah, I found that out. I've been up till 12:30 every night digging through the patents. IBM was originally just going to post their own patents. I'm glad they decided to post all of them. Joe > From ecloud at goodnet.com Tue Jun 2 16:22:47 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980602100526.2f5fc354@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 2, 98 10:05:26 am Message-ID: <199806022122.OAA28308@goodnet.com> I have a local buddy who has a dying 30M hard drive on some kind of Atari which he says is in a rather big box (for an Atari). It is MFM and he wants me to sell him one of my extra PC MFM drives if we can figure out how to make it work. Anybody know how to go about that? Also I have an Atari 540ST, and I suppose I might like to use a HD with that, if it's not too hard or expensive. Anybody know where I can get a controller for it cheap? Below is my email to the guy attempting to explain why it might need to be low-level formatted. I'd welcome any comments on any of that as well, or we could even get into a discussion about various FS architectures if there are any experts here on that.... > > > My Atari is 30MByte. If you can low-level format one for me or if you > > > think I can use a 40MByte, > > > that's Okay too. Please let me know if you have any luck. > > > > There's gotta be some Atari software or firmware for doing the low-level format. > > I have a program called HDX which lets me format for both The > Standard Atari and for my alternate OS-9 system. > > I guess I mis-understood what you meant at the Linux meeting > about having to format the old drive before I could use it. > I really don't know the difference between low and high formatting. As I understand it, low-level formatting means it writes the timing marks. MFM drives usually use one side of one platter just for these marks that tell the electronics where the heads are at, at any given point. So by rewriting these marks, you can change the "architecture" of the drive, specifically, how many sectors per track. I was told that each brand of hd controller does its own style of formatting, but I'm not really sure what the differences are, just that the chances are very good that when you move a drive from one machine to another, the hd controller won't be able to use the formatting on the drive as-is. By contrast, IDE (Integrated Drive Electronics) puts all the proprietary stuff on the drive itself, and the data going over the cable to the drive conforms to the standard. So you usually can't low-level format an IDE drive (and attempting to do so with one of those 286 BIOS's that can do that has been known to render IDE drives unusable), but some manufacturers will provide the software to do it. Usually it's done at the factory and never needs to be done again. On a PC, if you need to low-level format an MFM drive there are several options. Starting with the original XT controller, IBM set the standard that BIOS code for doing that formatting would always start at a particular address. So, you could use DOS's debug utility to simply execute the code starting at that ROM address, and it would prompt you for the parameters of the drive (number of tracks, number of heads, sectors per track, etc.) and then do the format. But AT clone BIOS's typically had a nice menu-driven program accessible from the "CMOS setup" routine to make this easier. So I can only assume that Atari's have a similar capability, either in the HD controller ROM, or the main BIOS, or some program that you have to run. You can check to see if your HDX makes that distinction; chances are if it doesn't, it's only doing the high-level formatting. (They would have no doubt preferred that you buy your HD pre-low-level-formatted from them, anyway.) Or, maybe the Atari uses a common PC-style controller chip, in which case if the drive was formatted on a PC with that same controller chip, I imagine it would work on the Atari as well. High-level formatting simply means constructing the filesystem. Given a reliable set of tracks with certain-sized sectors, how do we organize them into clusters, and then how do we put a file onto the disk, and keep track of where it is located. I believe on both DOS and Unix file systems, files are linked lists; the filesystem code can find out on what track and sector the file starts, and it can then read the first block, but the last few bytes of the first block are a "pointer" saying where to continue reading next. But with Unix filesystems, the information about where to start reading a file is distributed, whereas a FAT filesystem puts all the information about all the files on the first few tracks (the File Allocation Table). The FAT is a list of files, names, sizes, permissions, etc. along with where each file starts - sort of a flat database. The reason FAT formatting has limits as to how much data can be stored, is that you can run out of room to create more entries, so it won't matter whether or not you can write more data, because you can't index it, therefore can't find it later on. But I don't know as much about Unix filesystems, and nothing at all about Atari's. > > SO, do you think you have something I could buy that might get my > atari back up and running? I've been told that the surface of my > current drive is possibly too sticky but it sure looks clean. > I've been having to tap the side of the case for over a year to > get the darn thing to come up to speed but that tap no longer is > enough, it seems. > > ***** > I gave up on my friend's XT because his 1.4 floppy card had 6 > jumpers and no documents or hints on the card to tell what any > of the jumpers meant. Thanks for 286 offer but I don't want to > fool around with his system to that extent. He needs to cough up > about $500 for a Win95 system of some sort for his wife to use for > the purpose of training to become modern enough to be an office > receptionist. It's hell getting old and having technology pass one > by. It's also optional, don't you think? -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * Khoros * emusic * electronics * Gravis Ultrasound * X window * Java * From rax at warbaby.com Tue Jun 2 20:00:31 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> Final Demo of the Xerox Star Workstation >> 5:30 to 7:00pm >> Wednesday June 17th >> Auditorium Xerox PARC For those from the Bay Area who plan to attend: Anyone want to get together for a beer afterwards? Might be fun to meet some of the disembodied voices on the list. OTOH, maybe you've all known each other for years and I'm the only one who's new and clueless... R. -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From dastar at wco.com Tue Jun 2 21:17:34 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Rax wrote: > For those from the Bay Area who plan to attend: Anyone want to get together > for a beer afterwards? Might be fun to meet some of the disembodied voices > on the list. > > OTOH, maybe you've all known each other for years and I'm the only one > who's new and clueless... Just watch for the group of sharp looking guys who look like they're investment bankers who drive Ferrari's, and that won't be us. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From Mini7101 at aol.com Tue Jun 2 21:37:12 1998 From: Mini7101 at aol.com (Mini7101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: ibm part numbers Message-ID: <7eb85f4c.3574b6d9@aol.com> IBM publishes a CD known as the "white pages" or consultants guide which covers a large varriety of equipment that can be searched by"machine type" or text string. I will follow up with a contact # if I can find it. The drawback with this list is that as things get older they are dropped off the list. By the way, the 3089 is a check sorter used in LARGE banks. I deal in IBM mainframe stuff and can help with i.d.'s if you need it. I am looking for a listing of FRU's (field replaceable units) or part numbers in a digital format. If you know of anything like that available, I would appreciate it if you could pass it along. From william at ans.net Tue Jun 2 22:29:21 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: ibm part numbers In-Reply-To: <7eb85f4c.3574b6d9@aol.com> Message-ID: > IBM publishes a CD known as the "white pages" or consultants guide which > covers a large varriety of equipment that can be searched by"machine type" or > text string. I will follow up with a contact # if I can find it. The drawback > with this list is that as things get older they are dropped off the list. By > the way, the 3089 is a check sorter used in LARGE banks. A bit wierd that it fell between the numbers of some of their bigger water-cooler beasts (3081,2,3 and 3090). > I deal in IBM > mainframe stuff and can help with i.d.'s if you need it. Oh, that would be great! Some of us on the list enjoy the big iron, and would love to have some. Mainframes are not well represented in collections (for a good reason) - in fact, I think of all of the subscribers and collections on this list, there is only one S/360, a 9370, and then Pierce's Pile. > I am looking for a > listing of FRU's (field replaceable units) or part numbers in a digital > format. If you know of anything like that available, I would appreciate it if > you could pass it along. Well, somewhere around here I have a FRU list for the first series of RS/6000s - I think in one of the maintenance manuals. I would like to get it into text, but that would involve scanning/OCR, neither of which I have time for right now. A future project, however, it is. I wonder if IBM would complain if the information was posted. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jun 2 22:54:56 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Is it just me, or are most museums clueless when it comes to electronic > > exhibits? I've come across a museum that refuses to complete its PDP8 as > > the 2 cards I offered them that they were missing were made a few years > > after the the machine itself. This is a machine that was in use and taken > > out of service BTW, so it's unlikely that all the cards were original. Actually, if the curator follows all of the museum rules to the letter, I can see why he would have refused the cards. However, having the later cards in the empty slots poses no threat to the machine at all, and could be replaced with proper cards without anyone noticing. Odd behavior. He should have accepted the cards as artifacts of their own, if anything. > > Another collection I know about has managed to misplace a PDP12, a > > PDP11/70 and all the printsets for them. Losing a board I can understand, > > but 6' racks??? That is a bit insane. > (sigh) WHAT do you do with these people??? Ignore them. Most museums today are not warehouses of artifacts. It disappoints me greatly, seeing huge multimedia displays on something simple like how the nose works, knowing that the space could be used to show off some really neat stuff be they computers, stoves, knives, cars, whatever. It seems that TC"M" is a target of our attacks often. Do what a small group of hackers did - create a new East Coast home for big iron, called RCS/RI. Sure we are not big, and we do not have a nice "exhibit", nor corporate backing, but we do have a PDP-12 _that_works_. We will turn it on for anyone that wants to see a 25 year old computer system work. And we will never misplace it. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 2 23:05:48 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: SCO Question References: <199805312158.QAA22936@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <3574CB9C.89E39EBF@cnct.com> nerdware@laidbak.com wrote: > > I was just given a unix publishing/graphics suite. Two questions -- (I realize this > may be a little off-topic, so you can reply via e-mail and I apologize) 1) it runs > on SCO Unix -- did I read somewhere this will also run on FreeBSD? My unix > box will be running FreeBSD, so I hope so. 2) It's on a datacartridge.... I have > an old IBM tape drive and an old Mountain Filesafe tape drive -- any idea if this > is the right hardware to read the tape? I figured I'd come to the masters with > these questions. Thanks. Well, first, make sure you can read the tape _at all_. # dd if=/dev/(whatever your tape drive is called) of=/tmp/image If that doesn't work, cease further troubleshooting until you find fresh tape device drivers _or_ find out you should have used a different entry in /dev. Repeat until done. Then, your best bet is (_if_ you got a good tape read) to try it under the Intel Binary Compatibility Suite, as iBCS is standard in all current Linux distributions and the FreeBSD package I have -- I'll admit I haven't even _tried_ it with FreeBSD, but I'm using it to _attempt_ migration of device drivers from an old StarGate multi-serial card I found (source supplied for SCO Xenix) to Linux. (I'm _not_ a system or device driver level programmer). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 3 00:25:01 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Setup HD? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980602113333.3ce717b4@ricochet.net> I've got an Altima One computer (286, iirc -- it's at home) with a Conner CP-3044 (again, iirc) hard drive. I got the specs from the Hard Drive Bible for the drive, and went into the CMOS set up to set it up. No problem so far. After scanning through the predefined drives without success, I, of course, set it to type 47 -- user defined. Still no problem. Now comes the problem. I can't for the life of me figure out how to get to the Cyl/Sec/Heads/etc. fields to enter the appropriate numbers. If anyone has any suggestions.... Also, if anyone has any info on Altima (other than that it's a car sold by Nissan) I'd love to hear about it. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Jun 3 01:47:30 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: tandy printer References: <356FEABE.70B7@sufia.net> Message-ID: <3574F181.B861E117@bbtel.com> http:://support/tandy.com/ is where you need to initally go. Tom or Marsha wrote: > I looked up some useful info (though I never used it) recently for an > old Tandy pin printer at their website. It was exceptionally complete > and very helpful, including drivers if I remember right. tandy.com? if > not, search. Sorry if someone else answered this earlier. > Tom Penington-- outreach@sufia.net -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From billm at teleport.com Wed Jun 3 05:19:47 1998 From: billm at teleport.com (Bill Marx) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: ibm part numbers In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 2, 98 11:29:21 pm Message-ID: <199806031019.DAA02188@user2.teleport.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 214 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980603/679dc351/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Jun 3 08:57:27 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Web pages Message-ID: <35755646.DB41A942@bbtel.com> To anyone intertested...Tripod has upped the space for personal and small business free sites to 11mb now. Check http://www.tripod.com for further info.-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cad at gamewood.net Wed Jun 3 09:52:59 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Setup HD? References: <3.0.16.19980602113333.3ce717b4@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3575634B.7036@gamewood.net> Uncle Roger wrote: > > > Now comes the problem. I can't for the life of me figure out how to get to > the Cyl/Sec/Heads/etc. fields to enter the appropriate numbers. > > If anyone has any suggestions.... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." IIRC, _most_ of the CMOS setup programs will 'step thru' the option columns if you use the "TAB" key. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 3 11:10:33 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Web pages In-Reply-To: <35755646.DB41A942@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980603111033.490f57d0@intellistar.net> At 08:57 AM 6/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >To anyone intertested...Tripod has upped the space for personal and >small business free sites to 11mb now. Check http://www.tripod.com for >further info.-- Don't bother. Tripod adds in so many pop up spam windows and so much graphics that sites on their ISP are unusable. It might be nice for the members to get free E-mail and web sites but I don't even bother to look at them anymore because they're so SLLLOOOWWWWWW! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 3 11:53:21 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Setup HD? In-Reply-To: <3575634B.7036@gamewood.net> References: <3.0.16.19980602113333.3ce717b4@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980603115321.74df04c2@intellistar.net> At 10:52 AM 6/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >Uncle Roger wrote: >> >> >> Now comes the problem. I can't for the life of me figure out how to get to >> the Cyl/Sec/Heads/etc. fields to enter the appropriate numbers. >> >> If anyone has any suggestions.... >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- >> >> Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >> roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > >IIRC, _most_ of the CMOS setup programs will 'step thru' the option >columns if you use the "TAB" key. > >Chuck I had the same problem on the Chicony computers. You use TAB to step from setting to setting and use PG UP/ PG DN to change most of them but for Cyl/Heads/Secs you had to type the numbers in using the numbe keys above the main keyboard (not the numeric keypad, but try that if the other don't work). Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 2 19:38:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: <19980602205313.10411.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 2, 98 01:53:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 434 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980603/04b3ea05/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 3 10:51:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <199806022122.OAA28308@goodnet.com> from "Shawn Rutledge" at Jun 2, 98 02:22:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980603/e80a9e56/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 3 10:29:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Ressurecting FDDs (was Original IBM PC (was Re: Prices to In-Reply-To: <199806021952.PAA24681@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jun 2, 98 03:52:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 286 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980603/04c39206/attachment.ksh From ecloud at goodnet.com Wed Jun 3 13:34:45 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 3, 98 04:51:11 pm Message-ID: <199806031834.LAA05781@goodnet.com> > MFM and RLL are encoding schemes. They define how to turn a stream of 0's > and 1's into the magnetic patterns on the disk. They have nothing to do > with how a drive talks to its controller Of course, I was just using the vernacular... (About like "CMOS setup" - you didn't make any comments about that one though. :-)) But I didn't remember that it was called ST506. Sounds like a Seagate part number. Was it a PC hard drive, or even earlier? > When you low-level format a disk, you write the sector headers and sector > data onto the disk. The sector headers typically contain information as > to which sector this is. > > > MFM drives usually use one side of one platter just for these marks > > Not normally. The sector headers are stuck in between the data blocks, > just like on a floppy disk. > > You're probably thinking of the servo bursts - the signals that keep the > heads on a track. Some drives did use a particular side of one of the > platters for these. Other drives 'embedded' them in the sector headers on > the data platters. The latter is not common on ST506 interfaced drives, > but is common on SCSI/IDE drives Hmmm, interesting. So low-level formatting doesn't rewrite these? That would imply that the servo bursts are not involved in determining sectors at all. I used to use an RLL card with a couple of formerly MFM drives, and it made more sectors per track, so I thought the wasted platter had something to do with that. > > > > On a PC, if you need to low-level format an MFM drive there are several > > options. Starting with the original XT controller, IBM set the standard > > that BIOS code for doing that formatting would always start at a particular > > address. So, you could use DOS's debug utility to simply execute the > > Are you sure: While almost all clone controllers have a formatter routine > at C800:5, Yep, that's the one. > I couldn't find it in the original IBM XT hard disk BIOS. Hmmm. Well I think I remember using a full-length IBM controller with a 30 meg drive, and only being able to format 10 megs of it because it was the XT controller designed for the 10 meg hard drive. But I don't remember if I used debug to format it, or something else. This is my mom's machine which she never uses, so one of these days I can replace it with something more useful and refesh my memory about its contents. I'm going to try to restore it to original condition since it is so close already. > > Atari's are not my speciallity, but I seem to remember that the ST has a > 'DMA port' which is somewhat SCSI-like. Most ST hard disk systems were a > SCSI host adapter followed by a SCSI -> ST506 (or whatever) interface This guy's machine wasn't an ST I don't think, but that is what I have. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * quantize the universe * 808 State * virtual reality * mad science * From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 3 13:37:51 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: HP 64000 Logic Developement System manuals FS Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980603133751.453fc1ec@intellistar.net> I have the following HP manuals for sale for best offer. I'm cleaning house and they're going out one way or the other. Joe -------------- next part -------------- 64161A/162A/163A Emulation Memory For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Service Manual HP 64941A Flexible Disc Drives For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Reference Manual HP 64100 Mainframe For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Service Manual& 64100 A Display Controller and Driver Service Manual & Input Output Functions Service Manual & HP 64000 LDS Installation & Configuration Reference Manual HP 64263A 8051 Emulator Control Card Service Manual HP 64224S 80186 Emulation Subsystem For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Service Manual HP 64302A Wide Logic Analyzer For the HP 64000 Logic Development System SM HP 64310A Software Performance Analyzer For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Service Manual HP 64155A Wide Memory Control For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Service Manual HP 641151A Emulation Memory Controller For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Service Manual 64264-12004 8051 Emulation SW disc (still in shrink wrap) HP 64100A Mainframe Service Manual (still in shrink wrap) HP 64000 LDS Installation & Configuration Reference Manual (still in shrink wrap) HP 64941A Flexible Disc Drives For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Service Manual (still in shrink wrap) HP 64941A Flexible Disc Drives For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Reference Manual (still in shrink wrap) HP 64263A 8051 Emulator Control Card Service Manual (still in shrink wrap) HP 64302A Wide Logic Analyzer For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Service Manual (still in shrink wrap) HP 64264A 8051 Emulator Pod Service Manual (still in shrink wrap) HP 64155A Wide Memory Control For the HP 64000 Logic Development System Service Manual (still in shrink wrap) misc. Service Manual changes -------------- next part -------------- From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jun 3 09:52:05 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Web pages In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980603111033.490f57d0@intellistar.net> References: <35755646.DB41A942@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <199806031848.OAA14217@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:10:33 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Joe > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Web pages > At 08:57 AM 6/3/98 -0500, you wrote: > >To anyone intertested...Tripod has upped the space for personal and > >small business free sites to 11mb now. Check http://www.tripod.com for > >further info.-- > > Don't bother. Tripod adds in so many pop up spam windows and so much > graphics that sites on their ISP are unusable. It might be nice for the > members to get free E-mail and web sites but I don't even bother to look at > them anymore because they're so SLLLOOOWWWWWW! Joe is right. I hate those guys who have that tripod there. Ditto to capesomething and one other like this. pop! hit x icon, switch page, pop! hit the x icon again. augggh! Jason D. > > Joe > > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 3 14:14:20 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? Message-ID: <199806031914.AA00460@world.std.com> You're probably thinking of the servo bursts - the signals that keep th <> heads on a track. Some drives did use a particular side of one of the <> platters for these. Other drives 'embedded' them in the sector headers <> the data platters. The latter is not common on ST506 interfaced drives, <> but is common on SCSI/IDE drives < Are you sure: While almost all clone controllers have a formatter routi <> at C800:5, < I couldn't find it in the original IBM XT hard disk BIOS. Some of the controllers didn't have rom and depended on a floppy loaded formatter or floppy loaded driver routine. On one of my floppies I have HDINIT that was used for that purpose. Allison From william at ans.net Wed Jun 3 14:41:45 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <199806031914.AA00460@world.std.com> Message-ID: > I predates the PC! Everyone on this list predates the PC, except for maybe that Seagraves punk. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jun 3 10:56:27 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: References: <199806031914.AA00460@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199806031953.PAA02833@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:41:45 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: William Donzelli > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Atari hard drives? > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > I predates the PC! > > Everyone on this list predates the PC, except for maybe that Seagraves > punk. BTW, what about this? I predate the PC by 10 years and in fact small part of same year when either 4004 or 4040/8008 when I born in '72. :)) Jason D. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jun 3 15:25:11 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13360916285.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Everyone predates the PC, except for me...] I'm from 1978, same year VAX was invented. The PC is from 76, right? I'm not too far off... ------- From ecloud at goodnet.com Wed Jun 3 15:30:35 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <13360916285.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 3, 98 01:25:11 pm Message-ID: <199806032030.NAA04156@goodnet.com> > [Everyone predates the PC, except for me...] > I'm from 1978, same year VAX was invented. You're making me feel old. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * quantize the universe * 808 State * virtual reality * mad science * From icyblackhand at hotmail.com Wed Jun 3 15:31:20 1998 From: icyblackhand at hotmail.com (Michael Sheflin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ video Message-ID: <19980603203123.6058.qmail@hotmail.com> do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. Thanks Mike From icyblackhand at hotmail.com Wed Jun 3 15:31:54 1998 From: icyblackhand at hotmail.com (Michael Sheflin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) Message-ID: <19980603203154.10685.qmail@hotmail.com> do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. Thanks Mike From van at wired.com Wed Jun 3 16:00:43 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Clueless In-Reply-To: <19980603203154.10685.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: In your dreams maybe!!! >do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. >Thanks >Mike ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 3 15:47:34 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Clueless Newbies (was Clueless Museums) In-Reply-To: <19980603203154.10685.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Michael Sheflin wrote: > do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. > Thanks > Mike I'll pay you $10 or less to go away. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 3 15:48:29 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? Message-ID: <199806032048.AA27099@world.std.com> <> I predates the PC! I do I do I do, I do. So does the ST506 interface! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 3 15:52:13 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:17 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? Message-ID: <199806032052.AA00164@world.std.com> <[Everyone predates the PC, except for me...] from "William Donzelli" at Jun 2, 98 11:54:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4982 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980603/fd9db39c/attachment.ksh From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Jun 3 11:56:21 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Radius Monitor Message-ID: <199806032055.QAA13214@smtp.interlog.com> One of my recent finds was a Radius Full Page monitor. I has a 9pin Dshell F video socket. It's like a 14 " set on it's side. Does anyone have any info on this beast ? Drivers, what it was used with, etc. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Jun 3 11:56:20 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <199806022122.OAA28308@goodnet.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980602100526.2f5fc354@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 2, 98 10:05:26 am Message-ID: <199806032055.QAA13229@smtp.interlog.com> On 2 Jun 98 at 14:22, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > I have a local buddy who has a dying 30M hard drive on some kind of > Atari which he says is in a rather big box (for an Atari). It is MFM > and he wants me to sell him one of my extra PC MFM drives if we can > figure out how to make it work. Anybody know how to go about that? > > Also I have an Atari 540ST, and I suppose I might like to use a HD with > that, if it's not too hard or expensive. Anybody know where I can get a > controller for it cheap? > You need an adapter like Link2 to change from native Atari format (Atasci?) to SCSI. Then you can use any SCSI HD and chain other SCSI peripherals to it. Your friends Atari possibly has the adaptek board which IIRC changed the Atasci to SCSI and then to MFM. To my mind you don't need to bother with the LL-HL format thing. Just format with an Atari utility. An Atari doesn't have as many limitations as a messydoze, just an attempt by Tramiel to lock Atari users into proprietal HDs. SNIP > > SO, do you think you have something I could buy that might get my > > atari back up and running? I've been told that the surface of my > > current drive is possibly too sticky but it sure looks clean. > > I've been having to tap the side of the case for over a year to > > get the darn thing to come up to speed but that tap no longer is > > enough, it seems. > > I believe it's called "stricktion" His best solution is to use something like the Link2 since he could then use any SCSI HD with it. Systems For Tomorrow or Best Electronics has them. There's also another one by a european manufacturer whos name I can't recall ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From peacock at simconv.com Wed Jun 3 16:09:12 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E907@mail.simconv.com> <[Everyone predates the PC, except for me...] Almost let an error slip by there, the IMSAI dates to the end of 1975, November I think, the first ad was in the December 75 issue of Popular Electronics, along with the Processor Tech VDM-1 video board. We had one running in the lab by Xmas 75, the short motherboard (12 slot, IMSAI dropped it early in 76), 8080 CPU and 4K static ram (1K installed), all for only $429 in kit form. Jack From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 3 16:04:21 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, if the curator follows all of the museum rules to the letter, I > > can see why he would have refused the cards. However, having the later > > Then the museum rules are broken IMHO. > > Preserving a computer or technological artifact is rather different IMHO > from preserving a piece of art. In the latter case the visual appearance > is what matters, in the former case it's the function. That's what we're here for. We preserve the machines for their functionality. In 30 years, people will be coming to see our collections of working computers instead of wasting time at such museums watching static displays of dubious historical accuracy. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 3 16:41:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Imsai before 76 Message-ID: <199806032141.AA11185@world.std.com> References: Message-ID: <199806032146.RAA23807@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Jun 98 at 15:56, jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > I predates the PC! > > > > Everyone on this list predates the PC, except for maybe that Seagraves > > punk. > > BTW, what about this? I predate the PC by > 10 years and in fact small part of same year when either 4004 or > 4040/8008 when I born in '72. > > :)) > > Jason D. > > > > William Donzelli > > william@ans.net > Damn !! I'm beginning to think I might be the oldest on this list. Possibly only Charlie Fox has a step or 2 on me. Being born in 36 I predates TV !! Please don't call me Sir now like another young acquaintance did when he learned my age. : ^ )) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 3 17:01:18 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: <19980603220119.20387.qmail@hotmail.com> What are these bad things? I certainly want to know since I live near it! If you want a description, it's fairly small (in terms of total info), with a 2-story walk-through PC (when will they get that not every computer in the world uses intel processors?), a history exhibit, a robotics exhibit, and an "internet exhibit" with stuff like how the information superhighway has transformed the technology paradigm for the new millenium. THe history one is the only mildly interesting one with lots of old machines (S/360, PDP-8, Altair, Apple I, etc.), but a bit small. The machines used in other sections are certainly worth museum appearance. Weird DEC and Apple stuff is all over the place, used for multimedia, but cool in themselves. > >I've certainly heard bad things about the BCM - how true they are I don't >know, since I've never been. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 3 17:14:06 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! Message-ID: <19980603221406.9401.qmail@hotmail.com> I have wanted to ask this for a while. What is the actual risk of me blowing myself up if I service a machine with a built-in monitor? An example is the Mac SE. Is there any risk involved (as long as I don't short capacitors with my fingers) in taking it apart? What are the parts I should watch out for? How long do they hold a charge? Could I discharge them? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Wed Jun 3 18:25:06 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: <01IXT11ZTASIASFGV3@cc.usu.edu> >What are these bad things? I certainly want to know since I live >near it! > >If you want a description, it's fairly small (in terms of total info), >with a 2-story walk-through PC (when will they get that not every >computer in the world uses intel processors?), To make room for the two-story walk-through PC, they had to get rid of the neato walk-through SAGE exhibit, among others. Basically, they went from a museum a techno-geek could enjoy to something which appeals to the public at large. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 3 17:39:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! Message-ID: <199806032239.AA03769@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199806032240.SAA23376@mail.cgocable.net> > I have wanted to ask this for a while. What is the actual risk of me > blowing myself up if I service a machine with a built-in monitor? > An example is the Mac SE. Is there any risk involved (as long as I > don't short capacitors with my fingers) in taking it apart? What are > the parts I should watch out for? How long do they hold a charge? > Could I discharge them? Good! Worst thing is: Mains line (KILLS if you connected across your heart), everybody is full of highly conductive liquid with thin insulating semi dry skin! So old rule: stand on dry floor and put everything metallic away from a suspected powered or still charged unit until safely powered off and safely discharged. And charged tubes too, sometime it makes you jump 10' away and possible nasty injury from htting something sharp. Otherwise if you're not zapped, you might burn out electronics by that powerful charge out of that tube. Have your friendly electronics guy begged in who knows inside those monitors to show you how to safe them first and teach you to be careful and safely work with around them. Also that guy will show you how or ask that guy to make these needed equipment just for discharging filter caps and tubes. When you're working in main powered electronics with covers off (ie monitors, PSU box cracked open etc...) Always disconnect the mains plug and in plain sight and check large caps are discharged. Try to do repair much as you can without power juice and close up first. Can be very annoying sometimes. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From ecloud at goodnet.com Wed Jun 3 18:14:45 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Radius Monitor In-Reply-To: <199806032055.QAA13214@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jun 3, 98 04:56:21 pm Message-ID: <199806032314.QAA15468@goodnet.com> > One of my recent finds was a Radius Full Page monitor. I has a 9pin Dshell > F video socket. It's like a 14 " set on it's side. Does anyone have any info on > this beast ? Drivers, what it was used with, etc. Probably was used with a Mac. The earliest ones I've heard of plugged into a special port (card?) which you could put in an SE (I know, those weren't generally upgradeable, but I once saw one with the port for the Radius, about halfway up the backside of the case). Being 9-pin presumably this is the grayscale version. Most (all?) of that type were the kind that have a mercury switch to sense the position; if you tilted it into landscape-mode, it would inform the computer to switch video modes and rotate the image to match. So you could have either one high-res full page, or be able to see two pages side-by-side. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * quantize the universe * 808 State * virtual reality * mad science * From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 3 17:20:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <13360916285.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 3, 98 01:25:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 469 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980603/c789a3c5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 3 16:56:35 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <199806031834.LAA05781@goodnet.com> from "Shawn Rutledge" at Jun 3, 98 11:34:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980603/8ca79de4/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 3 19:15:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: <199806040015.AA12324@world.std.com> <>If you want a description, it's fairly small (in terms of total info), <>with a 2-story walk-through PC (when will they get that not every <>computer in the world uses intel processors?), < from "Max Eskin" at Jun 3, 98 03:14:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3509 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980604/fcf13f67/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 3 18:58:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! In-Reply-To: <199806032239.AA03769@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 3, 98 06:39:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980604/133fcc12/attachment.ksh From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 3 19:38:53 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) Message-ID: <001f01bd8f51$288b9080$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> Okay gang. I just can't take it, I gotta help this guy become an atarian. :) Okay, this is what; you need. You need an ATSCI to SCSI converter controller. The most common for the ST series is made by ICD. They can still be had from ICD but they are around 79.00. There is an Atari dealer, yes, dealer, amazing in my area. [KCMO] Their home page is www.systemsfortomorrow.com. They are a great bunch of guys and I got my ICD SCSI controller for them for a 1040 Swap. [I had two]. But he has a few used ones and can get you one if you want. This machine is very worth spending the money to get a HD for. My 1040ste I have upgraded to 4 megs, it has a 14.4 modem and a quantum 105lps scsi HD on. It will currently connect to the internet, and i mean with PPP an PAP authentication, will do IRC, FTP, Popmail and graphically surf all via freeware. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance. Bill Girnius -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Atari hard drives? >> >> > MFM and RLL are encoding schemes. They define how to turn a stream of 0's >> > and 1's into the magnetic patterns on the disk. They have nothing to do >> > with how a drive talks to its controller >> >> Of course, I was just using the vernacular... (About like "CMOS setup" - > >I don't normally mind - in fact I often misuse the terms myself. But whem >we're talking about hard disk operation, it helps to be exact. > >CMOS setup is less worrying. After all you are setting up parameters >which are stored in CMOS RAM (part of the real time clock chip). I do >object to people who don't know the difference between the CMOS RAM that >stores the BIOS setup parameters and the BIOS ROM itself. > >> you didn't make any comments about that one though. :-)) But I didn't >> remember that it was called ST506. Sounds like a Seagate part number. >> Was it a PC hard drive, or even earlier? > >The SR506 interface is named after the ST506 drive (5 Mbytes) which was >(AFAIK) the first drive to use this interface. Actually, the right name >should be ST412 (which was a 10 Mbyte drive that was used in the original >IBM XTs, etc), since there are minor differences. But if I called it an >ST412 interface few people would understand me. > >> > You're probably thinking of the servo bursts - the signals that keep the >> > heads on a track. Some drives did use a particular side of one of the >> > platters for these. Other drives 'embedded' them in the sector headers on >> > the data platters. The latter is not common on ST506 interfaced drives, >> > but is common on SCSI/IDE drives >> >> Hmmm, interesting. So low-level formatting doesn't rewrite these? > >Absolutely not. That's one reason why bulk-erasing hard drives can ruin them. >The only way to rewrite the servo data is to open up the disk in a clean >room, afix a position transducer (laser interferometer !) to the head >arm, position the heads accurately where you want them using a special >electonic system linked to the positioner coil and the transducer and >write the servo bursts. I know of nobody who has the equipment to do that. > >> That would imply that the servo bursts are not involved in determining >> sectors at all. I used to use an RLL card with a couple of formerly > >Correct. On embedded servo drives, the number of sectors/track is fixed, >since you want the servo bursts in the headers, and not in the middle of >user data. But on servo surface drives (with the 'wasted' surface), the >servo data is pretty much continuous and doesn't have anything to do with >the sectoring > >> MFM drives, and it made more sectors per track, so I thought the >> wasted platter had something to do with that. > >No, it's similar to the fact that I can take a 5.25" floppy and format it >in my TRS-80 model 1 with 10 sectors (88K) or in my Apple ][ with 16 >sectors (143K). Both machines have 35 tracks, in the same position. > > >> > Are you sure: While almost all clone controllers have a formatter routine >> > at C800:5, >> >> Yep, that's the one. > >Well, unless you move the BIOS to CC00:0000 or somewhere... > >> >> > I couldn't find it in the original IBM XT hard disk BIOS. >> >> Hmmm. Well I think I remember using a full-length IBM controller with a >> 30 meg drive, and only being able to format 10 megs of it because it was >> the XT controller designed for the 10 meg hard drive. But I don't remember >> if I used debug to format it, or something else. This is my mom's machine >> which she never uses, so one of these days I can replace it with something >> more useful and refesh my memory about its contents. I'm going to try >> to restore it to original condition since it is so close already. > >It's not in the BIOS source in my Techref. The first few lines of that >source are : > >0000 55 DB 055H ; Generic BIOS header >0001 AA DB 0AAH >0002 10 DB 16D ; ROM length byte (ARD) >0003 DISK_SETUP PROC FAR >0003 EB 1B JMP SHORT L3 >0005 3530.. DB '5000059 (C)COPYRIGHT IBM 1982' ; Copyright notice > >So on the true-blue IBMs, there's a copyright notice there, not a jump >to the low-level formatter. > >> _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com >> (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud >> __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ >> * quantize the universe * 808 State * virtual reality * mad science * >> > >-tony From ecloud at goodnet.com Wed Jun 3 19:59:08 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) In-Reply-To: <001f01bd8f51$288b9080$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 3, 98 07:38:53 pm Message-ID: <199806040059.RAA13936@goodnet.com> > Okay gang. I just can't take it, I gotta help this guy become an atarian. :) > Okay, this is what; you need. You need an ATSCI to SCSI converter OK, but what to do with the system that takes an ST-506 interface drive? I just need to know if I can substitute, say, an ST-251, and how to do the low-level format (if necessary). > controller. The most common for the ST series is made by ICD. They can still > be had from ICD but they are around 79.00. There is an Atari dealer, yes, > dealer, amazing in my area. [KCMO] Their home page is > www.systemsfortomorrow.com. They are a great bunch of guys and I got my ICD > SCSI controller for them for a 1040 Swap. [I had two]. But he has a few used > ones and can get you one if you want. This machine is very worth spending > the money to get a HD for. What are your killer apps to make it worthwhile? I figured maybe I could at least use it for a web browser in my bedroom or something, since it's mostly complete and working. So so far it looks like I need this special hard drive adapter. Is ethernet doable? If I upgrade the RAM what kind do I need? (It's a 540, not a 1040.) > My 1040ste I have upgraded to 4 megs, it has a > 14.4 modem and a quantum 105lps scsi HD on. It will currently connect to > the internet, and i mean with PPP an PAP authentication, will do IRC, FTP, > Popmail and graphically surf all via freeware. Please let me know if I can > be of any assistance. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * quantize the universe * 808 State * virtual reality * mad science * From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Jun 3 20:02:57 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Boston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <199806040015.AA12324@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 3, 98 08:15:51 pm Message-ID: <199806040102.SAA07785@saul10.u.washington.edu> > The BCM hsed to (pre PC) have a Honeywell, SAGE, PDP-1 and numerous > machines of former glory on display. Now they are somewhere parts > unknown or the back room. Next time I'm in town I should stop in and ask > if I can see the real machines. You won't find any of that stuff since it has all been moved (or is being moved) to California. The museum has set up a new warehouse in Moffett Field, on an Air Force base I believe. They intended to make it available to scholars and other interested people. When I visited they had just set up shop and the collection was incomplete (the PDP-1 was there, but it was disassembled to the module level and piled in a box... I wouldn't relish the job of reassembling it.) By now I'm sure most of it has been moved out of Boston. Although the museum has done some pretty boneheaded things in the past, I give them credit for the move, and I believe they've been much more careful since then about tending their collection. -- Derek From rax at warbaby.com Wed Jun 3 21:18:31 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... In-Reply-To: <199806032240.SAA23376@mail.cgocable.net> References: <19980603221406.9401.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jun 3 20:17:26 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! In-Reply-To: References: <199806032239.AA03769@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199806040117.LAA30562@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:58 AM 04-06-98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >Not _that_ far - less than an inch, I'd have thought. And remember that >the EHT side is pretty well insulated, so you're not going to touch it by >accident. I seem to recall that the ionization potential of air at STP is something like 10KV/cm, so 17KV might nearly jump an inch on a good day with a tail wind. If you really need to know I'll give my Dad a ring - he's a retired ionization physicist who used to play with real big Van der Graf generators (by really big I'm talking 10m tall and 5MeV - used to generate real big sparks!). I've never zapped myself with HT, but have successfully survived connecting myself to 240V 50Hz - don't try this at home folks (or anywhere else) - it hurts.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 3 20:29:44 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? References: <199806032030.NAA04156@goodnet.com> Message-ID: <3575F888.3F6980CC@cnct.com> Shawn Rutledge wrote: > > > [Everyone predates the PC, except for me...] > > I'm from 1978, same year VAX was invented. > > You're making me feel old. Tell me about it. I bought my (first) TRS-80 in 1978, after I got out of the USAF. I was 23 then. But there is the one kid around here, has he turned 13 yet? -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 3 20:56:23 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? References: <199806031914.AA00460@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3575FEC7.A576DDCF@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > The ST506 was an early 5mb full height 5.25" hard disk from Shugart (later > to become seagate). I still have a few. I predates the PC! The first > PCs to have a hard disk used either the ST506 (5m) ST412 (10mb) or the > Tandon t100 10mb all of which had a similar st506 drive level interface. As I recall, the proper name for the Shugart 506 interface became a proto-standard called SASI, and is a direct ancestor to SCSI. Though it's a bit hard to recognize the grandparent in the children's faces. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 3 21:05:28 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! References: <199806032239.AA03769@world.std.com> <199806040117.LAA30562@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <357600E7.CA3D0655@cnct.com> Huw Davies wrote: > > At 12:58 AM 04-06-98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > >Not _that_ far - less than an inch, I'd have thought. And remember that > >the EHT side is pretty well insulated, so you're not going to touch it by > >accident. > > I seem to recall that the ionization potential of air at STP is something > like 10KV/cm, so 17KV might nearly jump an inch on a good day with a tail > wind. > > If you really need to know I'll give my Dad a ring - he's a retired > ionization physicist who used to play with real big Van der Graf generators > (by really big I'm talking 10m tall and 5MeV - used to generate real big > sparks!). > > I've never zapped myself with HT, but have successfully survived connecting > myself to 240V 50Hz - don't try this at home folks (or anywhere else) - it > hurts.... > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 > 1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" Well, I _did_ once discharge a Leyden jar that had been charging for an hour sort of by hand. (Well, I first hit it with the physics lab grounding strap, it made a _really_ big spark that I thought did the job. Seems that took care of all of the electrons that could manage a jump of a full inch. So I grabbed it to put it into the cupboard.) Picking myself up off the floor a couple of minutes later ... I put it away, it was now _thoroughly_ discharged. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 3 21:35:42 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... Message-ID: <199806040235.AA28604@world.std.com> <"The federal government is in dire need of technical resources to fix th Message-ID: > Then the museum rules are broken IMHO. The rules vary in each field. I think for computers, the rules are still forming. > Preserving a computer or technological artifact is rather different IMHO > from preserving a piece of art. In the latter case the visual appearance > is what matters, in the former case it's the function. But function is not everything. The history behind the function of a machine is also very important - how it was designed, how it was manufactured, who had their hand in it. Details like that can be lost sometimes. The ultimate rule is a preserve an object at a specific point in time, almost always when the thing is taken out of service. Additionally, the object must never be comprimised. Officially restorations are not by the book, as they are almost always non-reverseable. I think this is a BIT extreme, but those are the rules, so if the curator was a "by the book" type, he is justified. Adding cards to the PDP-8, I would think, are completely reversable. > Art, in general, is not 'repaired' when it's in use (yes, it's restored, > but people with paintings do not, say, replace the red paint every few > years :-)). Machinery is repaired. And it's modified. Very much part of the history. > I would claim that there's not a single DEC machine that's been in real > use that still has all the original cards. Defective cards have been > replaced. The machine has been reconfigured, peripherals have been added, > etc. Up until recently (and it may still be running the shop) in Milwaukee, a PDP-8/e was running everyday doing CNC work and it never had a part replaced. Once a light bulb blew, but apparently was not a very important one, so the shop never replaced it. So theres at least one. > To me it seems crazy that if the cards had been replaced just before it > had been donated there would have been no problem, but they'll not do so > afterwards, even though they'd have _more_ information on the history in > the latter case. True, sort of. See above rule. > Please remember I wouldn't have minded if the new cards had been marked > (say with an engraving tool) 'Unoriginal card, fitted ' or > whatever. It was not my intention to 'fake' anything, rather to help them > get a historic machine operational again. Just a tag would do. In fact engraving the replacement cards would hurt _them_ as artifacts. > There are still some excellent museums in the UK. But it appears that the > more 'official' funding it gets, the less interesting it is. The best > museums for me are almost private collections. Same in the U.S. > Needless to say, we're all still preserving computers. I'd hoped that > 'official' museums were doing it as well, but it appears not to be the case. In defence of the museums, I must say that running such an establishment is _expensive_. Sure, some collectors maybe spend a bit for storage (like me - I spent extra for a house with a big shop), but that is peanuts compared to the everyday expenses of even a small museum. RCS/RI is getting a taste of the real world - every month we have to cough up real rent money. Then there is the phone bill. After that electricity, and a service upgrade. Then maybe we can buy supplies. > If I ever come across the Pond and end up in that area, you can be sure I'd > love to see it. Just say when. William Donzelli william@ans.net From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 3 22:14:51 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Ataridos needed Message-ID: <421cc071.3576112c@aol.com> Since i'm lazy and dont have an easy way to do it, I need ataridos 2.5 or 3.0 on a 5.25 disk. i can provide blank floppies and any money and postage that might be needed in order to do so. can anyone help? david From william at ans.net Wed Jun 3 22:16:42 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E907@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: > Hmmm, then I predate the S/360, the Bendix G-1, maybe even the IBM 650 > (did it come out before 1955?). So, how much of it did you save? William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 3 22:16:25 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... In-Reply-To: References: <199806032240.SAA23376@mail.cgocable.net> <19980603221406.9401.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >>From the yk2 Newsletter : > >"The federal government is in dire need of technical resources to fix the >Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a >possible draft of Cobol programmers." > > >I wonder what bootcamp is like? As someone that was in the Navy, and has "Intro to programming in COBOL" in their Military service record, that isn't even funny! Thankfully I got out without any inactive reserve time. Still the thought scares me a little, especially since I couldn't program my way out of a wet paper bag with COBOL :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Jun 3 22:26:11 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? Message-ID: <005501bd8f68$ae7adc20$d767bcc1@hotze> I'm younger than the Mac... came out the same year the 386. Guess that means that I'm 32 bit! Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Jack Peacock To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, June 04, 1998 12:03 AM Subject: RE: Atari hard drives? > ><[Everyone predates the PC, except for me...] ><------- > > >Hmmm, then I predate the S/360, the Bendix G-1, maybe even the IBM 650 >(did it come out before 1955?). > Jack Peacock >(even old enough to remember the Univac NBC/Huntley & Brinkley used for >1960 election night) From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 3 22:31:45 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) Message-ID: <003201bd8f69$4ce29e20$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> -----Original Message----- From: Shawn Rutledge To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 8:07 PM Subject: Re: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) >> Okay gang. I just can't take it, I gotta help this guy become an atarian. :) >> Okay, this is what; you need. You need an ATSCI to SCSI converter > >OK, but what to do with the system that takes an ST-506 interface drive? I just >need to know if I can substitute, say, an ST-251, and how to do the low-level >format (if necessary). To my knowledge all drives that are MFM are ST506 interface.As far as the lowleveling you just gonna have to play with it. Chances are the BIOS in that controller you have was only designed for one specifice drive. i'd just through one in and try to format it, and see what happens. Chances are it will just use it at the old settings, Better to through in a drive with paramaters larger than the old drive that way you won't damage it buy using it at a lower capapcity. If it were my machine, I'd go with the SCSI ICD controller personally. Best thing would be to try to dig up another drive like that one. But that drive he has should have come with a utility disk. If you go to irc.stelath.net and join #atari. They will probably know more than me, They are also very helpful. as far as the memory goes, I've never played with a 540, but I could still do everything I do now when my 1040 had only 1meg. If you search on Yahoo for ATARI a lot of european sites will come up. The Big on you want is the STING home page. STing is the Atari ST TCPIP stack. On that page are links to all the other software you will ever need. This computer is still very popular and supported in Europe. The 540 part concerns me though, but you might be able to get buy. Ethernet, at this point is still out of the question so far. There is supposedly an ATASCI ethernet adapter, but I have personally never seen one, and they run for more than 500.00 so Im told. Even if you only have 512K you can for sure use it for IRC, and Mail. I think you need a meg to do the browsing. But systems for tomorrow will know about what you can upgrade to what. They might even give you a credit for a trade. Like I said, I traded my extra 1040 for an ICD controller. There are also all kinds of MODS for these machines, they were popular enough, alot of folks have made home brew modifications for them that have been tested and work. If you go to the #atari channel on irc.stealth.net, tell them TheDM sent you and you will assuredly get some help, Look for SWE, or DRACO, or evl, or MRATARI. They are all very knowledgable and helped me alot. If you see Flinny, he wrote STik, the other TCPIP stack. if you see LB he wrote the ATari IRC client himself, another good resource. IM telling you, this machine is COOL! If you need more information, email me privately and I will give you my phone number and we can talk some. Where are you located anyways? > >> controller. The most common for the ST series is made by ICD. They can still >> be had from ICD but they are around 79.00. There is an Atari dealer, yes, >> dealer, amazing in my area. [KCMO] Their home page is >> www.systemsfortomorrow.com. They are a great bunch of guys and I got my ICD >> SCSI controller for them for a 1040 Swap. [I had two]. But he has a few used >> ones and can get you one if you want. This machine is very worth spending >> the money to get a HD for. > >What are your killer apps to make it worthwhile? > >I figured maybe I could at least use it for a web browser in my bedroom or >something, since it's mostly complete and working. So so far it looks like >I need this special hard drive adapter. Is ethernet doable? If I upgrade >the RAM what kind do I need? (It's a 540, not a 1040.) > >> My 1040ste I have upgraded to 4 megs, it has a >> 14.4 modem and a quantum 105lps scsi HD on. It will currently connect to >> the internet, and i mean with PPP an PAP authentication, will do IRC, FTP, >> Popmail and graphically surf all via freeware. Please let me know if I can >> be of any assistance. > > >-- > _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com > (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud > __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ >* quantize the universe * 808 State * virtual reality * mad science * From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Jun 3 22:42:52 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Rax wrote: > Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a > possible draft of Cobol programmers." > > > I wonder what bootcamp is like? > Storing all programs on audio Cassette? ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Jun 3 22:47:23 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Or the 029 card punch! (Sorry I couldn't resist one more!) George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, George Rachor wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Rax wrote: > > > Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a > > possible draft of Cobol programmers." > > > > > > I wonder what bootcamp is like? > > > > > Storing all programs on audio Cassette? > > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > > > > From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jun 3 23:42:47 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Radius Monitor In-Reply-To: "Lawrence Walker"'s message of Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:56:21 +0000 References: <199806032055.QAA13214@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199806040442.VAA05811@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Lawrence Walker" wrote: > One of my recent finds was a Radius Full Page monitor. I has a 9pin Dshell > F video socket. It's like a 14 " set on it's side. Does anyone have any info on > this beast ? Drivers, what it was used with, etc. Mac. I've seen one on what I think was a IIcx (maybe IIci), and another on on my mother's Mac Plus. The IIc[xi] interface is a NuBus card. The Plus interface is a daughterboard contrivance that sits atop the 68000 on the Plus mainboard (and hooks up with springs to a couple of other signals); it brings the video out through the security slot on the back of the Plus. I'd like to find a service manual for the monitor (and associated clues for my brain); Mom's is going kind of funny in one of those ways where the horizontal sync seems to change a bit after it warms up a while, and is sensitive to brightness. I opened it up over Christmas and adjusted it so it's usable (also rebuilt the PS in the Plus following directions in Larry Pina's book, so now the internal monitor works again) but expect that it's running on borrowed time. On the other hand, maybe it'd be easier to buy Mom a not-so-classic computer. She's decided that the Plus is slow. -Frank McConnell From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 3 23:58:10 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Wierd RL02 backup method Message-ID: I want to backup the RL02 packs that I got this weekend, so I've put the RL02 controller in one of my VAXen, and attached a RL02 drive. I've copied two of them to the VAX and then transfered them to a Linux box. The first one booted just fine, and I'm honestly not sure about the second one. Now I'm wondering two things, first off, how do I go about restoring these if I manage to royally mess up things on one of the packs, and two, are the errors shown below normal? The bit about DLA0: not being completely copied worries me. Zane $ dismount dla0: $ show dev d Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count Cnt DLA0: Online 0 DUB1: Mounted 0 VAXVMSV055 23214 147 1 DUB2: Online 0 $ mount/for dla0: %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, RSX11M mounted on _DLA0: $ copy dla0: rsx11m.dsk/log %COPY-W-INCOMPAT, _DLA0:[].; (input) and SYS$SYSROOT:[000000]RSX11M.DSK;1 (outpu t) have incompatible attributes %COPY-E-READERR, error reading _DLA0:[].; -RMS-F-RER, file read error -SYSTEM-F-ILLBLKNUM, illegal logical block number %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, _DLA0:[].; not completely copied $ $ show dev d Device Device Error Volume Free Trans Mnt Name Status Count Label Blocks Count Cnt DLA0: Mounted alloc 0 RSX11M 0 1 1 foreign DUB1: Mounted 0 VAXVMSV055 2733 147 1 DUB2: Online 0 $ | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From engine at chac.org Wed Jun 3 21:17:29 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: References: <199806031914.AA00460@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980603191729.00a3fa60@pop.batnet.com> At 15:41 6/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >Everyone on this list predates the PC, except for maybe that Seagraves >punk. And Tim Hotze, Max Eskin.... anybody else? __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 4 00:44:56 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199806040544.PAA31758@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 08:47 PM 03-06-98 -0700, George Rachor wrote: >Or the 029 card punch! (Sorry I couldn't resist one more!) And what's wrong with an 029 I ask? I'd prefer to revise my card punching skills rather than revise my COBOL skills.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 4 02:05:16 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Remembering BYTE acticles Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980603195930.3a878eb0@ricochet.net> At 06:44 PM 6/2/98 +0100, you wrote: >> It was just two precision resistor networks connected through >> CMOS drivers to the address lines of the C64. One network for >> the lower 8 address lines and one for the upper 8. When the two >> networks were connected to the XY inputs of a oscilloscope, you >> had a 256 by 256 pixel display of where in memory the 6510 >> was executing. > >That wasn't the first time that trick had been published in Byte. Steve >Ciarcia used it in one of his earlier Circuit Cellar articles. But it's a >very useful trick, and deserves to be shown again. There was a guy who was selling videos of (I guess) the same sort of thing for the Mac at the first VCF. Sam can probably get you info. I thought it was neat, but being perpetually broke, didn't go for it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 4 02:05:20 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: HELP!!!!!!! Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980603201131.3a874378@ricochet.net> At 01:24 PM 6/2/98 -0700, you wrote: >Someone needs to update the gateway where these people are getting on and >explain to them that however they are posting these messages, it will in >fact get distributed to the list. They then need to realize that they are >also being subscribed (I assume). I strongly suspect that these nitwi... er, uninformed guests are doing searches, finding one of the web pages where classiccmp is archived, and sending a reply to the (list) address. Not much one can do, I suppose. (Of course, everyone on the list replies, and the replies go to the list, not the poster.) I doubt very much that they're being subscribed to the list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 4 02:05:26 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980603201905.3a877bf0@ricochet.net> At 05:00 PM 6/2/98 -0800, you wrote: > >>> Final Demo of the Xerox Star Workstation >>> 5:30 to 7:00pm >>> Wednesday June 17th >>> Auditorium Xerox PARC > >For those from the Bay Area who plan to attend: Anyone want to get together >for a beer afterwards? Might be fun to meet some of the disembodied voices >on the list. If I can get there, I'd love to... (But I usually leave work in Walnut Creek at around 7pm...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From bwish at pcfa.org Thu Jun 4 02:46:02 1998 From: bwish at pcfa.org (Brett Wish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? References: <199806031914.AA00460@world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19980603191729.00a3fa60@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <357650BA.8D4@pcfa.org> > >Everyone on this list predates the PC, except for maybe that Seagraves > >punk. > > And Tim Hotze, Max Eskin.... anybody else? Don't forget me! I'm from 1982, so does that make me IBM compatible? 32-bit isn't all that great, especially considering Win'95... ;-) From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jun 4 03:25:21 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? Message-ID: <001001bd8f92$56bbfe40$1d67bcc1@hotze> Well, 32-bit is more than Windows 95, which is only partially 32-bit, to ensure Windows 3.1 compatibility. NT's full-blown 32-bit, so is Linux , Solaris, HP-UX, SGI Irix... Anyway, beats 16-bitters... ;-) BTW, to make this on topic, when did Macs make the transition to 32-bit, or were all 32 bit from day one? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Brett Wish To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, June 04, 1998 10:48 AM Subject: Re: Atari hard drives? >> >Everyone on this list predates the PC, except for maybe that Seagraves >> >punk. >> >> And Tim Hotze, Max Eskin.... anybody else? > >Don't forget me! I'm from 1982, so does that make me IBM compatible? >32-bit isn't all that great, especially considering Win'95... ;-) From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 4 03:29:42 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <001001bd8f92$56bbfe40$1d67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <199806040829.SAA32203@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 11:25 AM 04-06-98 +0300, Hotze wrote: >BTW, to make this on topic, when did Macs make the transition to 32-bit, or >were all 32 bit from day one? I seem to recall being told that they were 32bit from the start hardware wise but they were using the top 8bits of addresses? for something else, making them really 24bit systems. This hurt Apple and their software developers later on. I've got a set of the white Inside Mac at home, perhaps I should look them up. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 3 20:36:15 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:18 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS!" (Jun 4, 0:52) References: Message-ID: <9806040236.ZM29499@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 4, 0:52, Tony Duell wrote: [useful stuff] > But not everyone has an EHT meter. It's probably OK to use a 10M resistor > (prefereably a high-voltage one) and a well-insulated screwdriver to > discharge the CRT. Connect one end of the resistor (use clip leads, etc) > to the CRT earth and the other one to the screwdriver blade. Then push > the screwdriver under the edge of the anode cap and hold it in contact > with the metal contact for about 30s. Most resistors are rated for a 500V or 1kV rather than EHT, so there is a small risk that they'll break down or flash over. Better to use two or more in series if you can. It's also worth pointing out that even 1mA at 15kV is a fair wattage -- another reason to use more than one resistor. A large colour CRT might have a 25kV supply. Of course, as Tony points out, usually the CRT will discharge when switched off. But if it doesn't, that's just when you don't want to find out the limitations of ordinary resistors. (I once proved this theory on a Commodore PET). Perhaps this is a good place to mention the "hand in pocket" rule: if you're working on a high-voltage system, and one hand is in your pocket, it can't be touching a good earth (unless you're even odder than I am :-)) so there's a reduced chance of current crossing your body. You used to often see TV engineers with one hand in a pocket and an EHT probe in the other. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 4 06:25:06 1998 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? Message-ID: <002001bd8fab$6d5af8e0$42097c18@thedm.lawrence.ks.us> I could be wrong, but I have a Mac IIFx, I belive it was the first 32bit clean Macintosh. -----Original Message----- From: Huw Davies To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, June 04, 1998 3:37 AM Subject: Re: Atari hard drives? >At 11:25 AM 04-06-98 +0300, Hotze wrote: > >>BTW, to make this on topic, when did Macs make the transition to 32-bit, or >>were all 32 bit from day one? > >I seem to recall being told that they were 32bit from the start hardware >wise but they were using the top 8bits of addresses? for something else, >making them really 24bit systems. This hurt Apple and their software >developers later on. I've got a set of the white Inside Mac at home, >perhaps I should look them up. > > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 >1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From pjoules at coleg-powys.ac.uk Thu Jun 4 06:44:39 1998 From: pjoules at coleg-powys.ac.uk (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: <00dc01bd8fae$28be8d20$104e53c2@MIS2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> From: Tony Duell > >The stories I mentioend didn't refer to the BCM, but to a couple of major >collections in the UK. Where are there any decent public displays in the UK. There doesn't seem to be much at the science museum in London. Regards Pete From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Thu Jun 4 07:08:24 1998 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Radius Monitor Message-ID: <35EDF53665@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 3 Jun 98 at 21:42, Frank McConnell wrote: > "Lawrence Walker" wrote: > > One of my recent finds was a Radius Full Page monitor. I has a 9pin Dshell > > F video socket. It's like a 14 " set on it's side. Does anyone have any info on > > this beast ? Drivers, what it was used with, etc. > > Mac. I've seen one on what I think was a IIcx (maybe IIci), and > another on on my mother's Mac Plus. The IIc[xi] interface is a NuBus > card. The Plus interface is a daughterboard contrivance that sits > atop the 68000 on the Plus mainboard (and hooks up with springs to a > couple of other signals); it brings the video out through the security > slot on the back of the Plus. Thanks for the description of the Plus contrivance, Frank. ISTR that the Plus Full Page Display (FPD) was beige to match the original Mac colours. That would make the later ones grey to match the later SE/Mac II family colours. Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 03:09:43 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Radius Monitor In-Reply-To: <199806032314.QAA15468@goodnet.com> References: <199806032055.QAA13214@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jun 3, 98 04:56:21 pm Message-ID: <199806041208.IAA02271@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Jun 98 at 16:14, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > > One of my recent finds was a Radius Full Page monitor. I has a 9pin Dshell > > F video socket. It's like a 14 " set on it's side. Does anyone have any info on > > this beast ? Drivers, what it was used with, etc. > > Probably was used with a Mac. The earliest ones I've heard of plugged > into a special port (card?) which you could put in an SE (I know, > those weren't generally upgradeable, but I once saw one with the port for > the Radius, about halfway up the backside of the case). Being 9-pin > presumably this is the grayscale version. Most (all?) of that type were > the kind that have a mercury switch to sense the position; if you tilted > it into landscape-mode, it would inform the computer to > switch video modes and rotate the image to match. So you could have either > one high-res full page, or be able to see two pages side-by-side. > Definitely sounds like a keeper. Now to find the adapter for my Mac+. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 03:09:42 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Radius Monitor In-Reply-To: <199806040442.VAA05811@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: "Lawrence Walker"'s message of Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:56:21 +0000 Message-ID: <199806041208.IAA02275@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Jun 98 at 21:42, Frank McConnell wrote: > "Lawrence Walker" wrote: > > One of my recent finds was a Radius Full Page monitor. I has a 9pin Dshell > > F video socket. It's like a 14 " set on it's side. Does anyone have any info on > > this beast ? Drivers, what it was used with, etc. > > Mac. I've seen one on what I think was a IIcx (maybe IIci), and > another on on my mother's Mac Plus. The IIc[xi] interface is a NuBus > card. The Plus interface is a daughterboard contrivance that sits > atop the 68000 on the Plus mainboard (and hooks up with springs to a > couple of other signals); it brings the video out through the security > slot on the back of the Plus. > > I'd like to find a service manual for the monitor (and associated > clues for my brain); Mom's is going kind of funny in one of those ways > where the horizontal sync seems to change a bit after it warms up a > while, and is sensitive to brightness. I opened it up over Christmas > and adjusted it so it's usable (also rebuilt the PS in the Plus > following directions in Larry Pina's book, so now the internal monitor > works again) but expect that it's running on borrowed time. > > On the other hand, maybe it'd be easier to buy Mom a not-so-classic > computer. She's decided that the Plus is slow. > > -Frank McConnell > It seems confirmed that it's for a Mac. There was also a mention on the classicmac m-l of one hooked up to a Plus. I have a plus and it's a neat machine. If only they had set it up for 1.6 instead of 800k. It's not a speedster for sure and they all had a problem with the PSU and overheating. OTOH it would be one of the last machines to go if I ever had to reduce my collection. Keep me in mind for the adapter if your mother ever decides to junk it. For now the Radius goes at the back of the "peripherals waiting for a card" shelf. Thanks for the info. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Jun 4 07:30:03 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Web pages References: <3.0.1.16.19980603111033.490f57d0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3576934B.5E67F3DA@bbtel.com> Joe wrote: > At 08:57 AM 6/3/98 -0500, you wrote: > >To anyone intertested...Tripod has upped the space for personal and > >small business free sites to 11mb now. Check http://www.tripod.com for > >further info.-- > > Don't bother. Tripod adds in so many pop up spam windows and so much > graphics that sites on their ISP are unusable. It might be nice for the > members to get free E-mail and web sites but I don't even bother to look at > them anymore because they're so SLLLOOOWWWWWW! Are we talking about the same Tripod here? There's one pop-up (which all of them do now on free sites) on only the main page and they're as fast as any other. They rarely have a down day either. Evidentally you've never had a site on Tripod. Mine's been up a year now and never a problem. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Jun 4 07:33:04 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: HP 64000 Logic Developement System manuals FS References: <3.0.1.16.19980603133751.453fc1ec@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <35769400.10063129@bbtel.com> Joe wrote: > I have the following HP manuals for sale for best offer. I'm cleaning > house and they're going out one way or the other. While we're on the subject of HP manuals, does anyone have a HP 54201D digital oscope "operations and programming: manual laying around that they might want to sell? I have the service manual and have been unable to find an original ops manual. I don't care much for the qaulity and cost of most reproduction/photocopy manuals. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Jun 4 07:34:47 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Web pages References: <35755646.DB41A942@bbtel.com> <199806031848.OAA14217@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <35769467.4D4AF301@bbtel.com> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > Don't bother. Tripod adds in so many pop up spam windows and so much > > graphics that sites on their ISP are unusable. It might be nice for the > > members to get free E-mail and web sites but I don't even bother to look at > > them anymore because they're so SLLLOOOWWWWWW! > > Joe is right. I hate those guys who have that tripod there. Ditto > to capesomething and one other like this. > > pop! hit x icon, switch page, pop! hit the x icon again. augggh! Yet another that is using a Tripod different than the one I'm speaking of, evidentally. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Jun 4 07:43:52 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Web pages Message-ID: > > [tripod stuff] >> >> Joe is right. I hate those guys who have that tripod there. Ditto >> to capesomething and one other like this. I find it pretty darn slow too - both from my work connection or from home (two different ISP's). Mind you, the entire internet seems to be grinding to a halt these days! ("Information Superhighway" indeed! :) >> >> pop! hit x icon, switch page, pop! hit the x icon again. augggh! heh heh, sounds familiar! It wouldn't be so bad if it only did it when you first hit the main page from another site or a new browser connection, but the fact that it's every time you go back to the main page is really annoying... tripod could be worse though; at least their pop-out windows don't contain a huge amount of graphics, so you can close the window almost as soon as it pops up. I came across one site once that used external windows that you couldn't close until you killed the browser session - very nice! :-( cheers Jules From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jun 4 08:07:56 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? Message-ID: <85397520.35769c2d@aol.com> In a message dated 98-06-04 07:28:40 EDT, you write: << BTW, to make this on topic, when did Macs make the transition to 32-bit, or >>were all 32 bit from day one? >> they were all 32bit from the get-go, but i think the memory adressing was 24bit which means my IIcx can only goto 16meg maximum. there was also some issue about some applications wouldnt run because of the 24-32 bit discrepancy, and a program called mode32 was created to circumvent the issue. i got my copy of mode32 from connectix, who presumably made it. david From mor at crl.com Thu Jun 4 07:22:25 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Apple ][ video References: <19980603203123.6058.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35769181.76D425B6@crl.com> Michael Sheflin wrote: > > do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. Good luck! One recently went for $1,350.00 at eBay. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu Jun 4 08:18:13 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Boston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <199806040102.SAA07785@saul10.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Jun 3, 98 06:02:57 pm Message-ID: <199806041318.JAA22490@shell.monmouth.com> > > > The BCM hsed to (pre PC) have a Honeywell, SAGE, PDP-1 and numerous > > machines of former glory on display. Now they are somewhere parts > > unknown or the back room. Next time I'm in town I should stop in and ask > > if I can see the real machines. > > You won't find any of that stuff since it has all been moved (or is being > moved) to California. The museum has set up a new warehouse in Moffett Field, > on an Air Force base I believe. They intended to make it available to scholars > and other interested people. > > When I visited they had just set up shop and the collection was incomplete > (the PDP-1 was there, but it was disassembled to the module level and piled in > a box... I wouldn't relish the job of reassembling it.) By now I'm sure most > of it has been moved out of Boston. > > Although the museum has done some pretty boneheaded things in the past, I give > them credit for the move, and I believe they've been much more careful since > then about tending their collection. > > -- Derek > You should have seen the stuff when they were still in Marlboro, Ma at the old DEC Large Computers Group (LCG) plant. 6 foot disk platters, big old drums, the PDP1, real good stuff to walk in. No walkthrough PCs. I guess I'm going to have to go to California to see what really belongs here on the East Coast... Look where DEC, IBM, Univac started. Why couldn't the museum get located somewhere down here. 8-( I guess I'm going to have to fly out to Sunnyvale (which is a favorite place of mine -- since I worked for a Mountain View company for a while). Too bad they couldn't have turned the Mill into a DEC (er d|i|g|i|t|a|l) museum. Maybe Compaq will donate some of the historic machines... Castor and Pollux? Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Thu Jun 4 08:22:19 1998 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard ) Message-ID: <3728E00B83@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 4 Jun 98 at 9:07, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > they were all 32bit from the get-go, but i think the memory adressing was > 24bit which means my IIcx can only goto 16meg maximum. there was also some > issue about some applications wouldnt run because of the 24-32 bit > discrepancy, and a program called mode32 was created to circumvent the issue. > i got my copy of mode32 from connectix, who presumably made it. The IIX and IICX and SE/30 ROMs contained the 24bit addressing code. For System 7.0 --> 7.5.5, Connectix released the Mode 32 fix which permits the Macs with "dirty ROMs" to successfully address up to 128M of physical RAM and to use virtual memory as well. For System 6, you were stuck with 8M physical RAM on these machines. Apple did not support virtual memory at that time, but Connectix sold a VM kit. The kit also supported a Mac II fitted with a PMMU. Can anyone clarify the memory situation for A/UX? Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 4 08:23:16 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? Message-ID: <199806041323.AA02913@world.std.com> nobody thought 16mb wasn't enough. Allison From mor at crl.com Thu Jun 4 07:28:59 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: How old am I? Message-ID: <3576930B.63879C14@crl.com> Just a couple months younger than the PDP-1. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From erd at infinet.com Thu Jun 4 08:54:50 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <199806041323.AA02913@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 4, 98 09:23:16 am Message-ID: <199806041354.JAA05122@user2.infinet.com> > < Ciao, > > MAC was 32bit from DAY 1. The 68000 was internally 32bit and in ithe > various incantations 8 bit or 16 bit bus...later ones were longer bus. > Early parts only brought out the lower 24bits of address as /back then/ > nobody thought 16mb wasn't enough. Mostly. True, the 68K processor was 32 bits internal, giving rise to a mostly 32-bit software model, but in the early days of the Mac, "clever" programmers would take advantage of the 24-bit address bus when, for example, building tables. To save space, one might code a table with 24 bits of pointer and 8 bits of data. It would be safe (on a 68K Mac) to load the entire 32 bits into an address register because the upper 8 bits (filled with random data) would never make it off the die. When such a program is loaded on a '020 or newer, bad things happen. IIRC, this is what it is to be "32-bit clean" in the Mac world. The practice stopped as soon as the MacII's came out, but it never should have begun in the first place. The very first "Inside Macintosh", the edition in a three-ring-binder, warned against the practice. -ethan From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu Jun 4 09:32:57 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! In-Reply-To: <199806032239.AA03769@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980604103257.0069a71c@mail.wincom.net> At 06:39 PM 6/3/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >if your careful and aquaint yourself with where the HV is...and make >very sure you don't put your fingers there you should be ok. Also >remember that 17,000 volts can jump a good distance and find you >fingers. > >To make a point though... I got blasted fixing a VR201 monochrome monitor >yesterday. So you know this monitor is powered off 12v in the pro350. >Well, I kept clear of the flyback and crt anode and got nailed by 70-100v >down on the logic board. I wasn't watching for the focus cap having >anything big voltage wise on it. Many monitors have points other than >the CRT where higher than supply voltaged can be found and some can really >sting! > > >How long... amazingly long and should be treated as charged until proven >otherwise. You can discharge them, make sure the "ground" you use is >a real one and simply not the case or some other floating point. > > >Allison > > This is sort of off topic, but also sort of funny so please forgive me. Many years back, when I was doing tv repairs, I had a St Bernard. One humid summer afternoon while trying to repair a set I poked my insulated screwdriver into the high voltage supply. Nothing happened except the hair on my arm stood up. I pulled out the screwdriver and the hair went back down. I poked the screwdriver back in and the hair went back up. About then the St Bernard came up to be sociable and a spark jumped about three quarters of an inch from my arm and hit him in the nose. He was not amused and would not come near me until his appetite got the better of his feelings at supper time. Regards Charlie Fox From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 4 09:43:35 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Web pages In-Reply-To: <3576934B.5E67F3DA@bbtel.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980603111033.490f57d0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: >Are we talking about the same Tripod here? There's one pop-up (which all of >them do now on free sites) on only the main page and they're as fast as any >other. They rarely have a down day either. Evidentally you've never had a site >on Tripod. Mine's been up a year now and never a problem. Thanks for the warning, I'll add Tripod to the list of servers I'm boycotting. I will not knowingly access any site that pops up windows with advertisments on my screen. I don't mind it when they've got them inline with the page itself, I can put up with a couple of banners on the page, but I will not put up with these (*%&^%(* popup windows! I really need to take the time to do up a boycott web page! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Jun 4 10:56:32 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... Message-ID: <01IXTZO9E41UASFPL7@cc.usu.edu> >>From the yk2 Newsletter : > >"The federal government is in dire need of technical resources to fix the >Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a >possible draft of Cobol programmers." What, we don't have time to fix the Y2K problem but we _do_ have time to build a whole new bureaucracy to mobilize the nation? Of course, the new draft agency would have to be Y2K compliant so they can track down and punish draft dodgers... I guess it wouldn't do any good to skip off to Canada because _they'd_ probably draft you, too. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 4 10:02:05 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980604075348.0c6fe22a@ricochet.net> At 08:16 PM 6/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >>possible draft of Cobol programmers." >especially since I couldn't program my way out of a wet paper bag with >COBOL :^) A friend of mine is taking some classes at the local community college (Where I went, lo those many years ago) and has a perfesser who says that COBOL is dead. Which makes me wonder how I manage to earn 6 figures doing new COBOL development... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 4 10:02:00 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Lisa (was: Apple ][ video + headers!) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980604073622.3d6fe3e4@ricochet.net> At 01:31 PM 6/3/98 PDT, you wrote: >do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. Yah right. Me too. Heck, I'll pay $100 or less for an IMSAI, an Altair, a Sol-20, and an Apple 1 too. Not that anyone will sell it to me. Of course, I'm not an anonymous nobody popping up from nowhere to quote lotsa headers from irrelevant messages... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Jun 4 10:07:47 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Web pages In-Reply-To: <3576934B.5E67F3DA@bbtel.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980603111033.490f57d0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: >Are we talking about the same Tripod here? There's one pop-up (which all of >them do now on free sites) on only the main page and they're as fast as any >other. They rarely have a down day either. Evidentally you've never had a site >on Tripod. Mine's been up a year now and never a problem. Geocities doesn't... Kinda nice, actually. Tripod's pop-ups aren't too bad, but they are annoying. And they do slow things down quite a bit on older computers(or even faster ones when they get bogged down). And I don't know where this thread started from since I'm not anywhere near reading the rest of my email, but what does all this have to do with old computers? Oh well... I might try to start a second page at Geocities, they give you a lot more space(I think it's 6MB now?) than Tripod(2MB IIRC). Which reminds me, both my web pages need major updates... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 4 10:12:54 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Boston Computer Museum Message-ID: <199806041512.AA09466@world.std.com> from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 4, 98 10:02:05 am Message-ID: <9806041517.AA25210@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 779 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980604/60107301/attachment.ksh From erd at infinet.com Thu Jun 4 10:19:56 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) In-Reply-To: <199806040059.RAA13936@goodnet.com> from "Shawn Rutledge" at Jun 3, 98 05:59:08 pm Message-ID: <199806041519.LAA06601@user2.infinet.com> > OK, but what to do with the system that takes an ST-506 interface drive? I just > need to know if I can substitute, say, an ST-251, and how to do the low-level > format (if necessary). If it's a later (post-1985) ST-506 controller, you probably can use an ST-251 or larger drive. I've got some stuff that's from c. 1981 that assumes a real ST-506 or TM603 or equivalent, down to the write precomp and reduced write current. You can't use a newer drive (newer meaning ST-225 and up). As a result, I've got a box of ST506 and ST412 drives (DEC RD-50 and RD-51), and a couple of 5Mb Tandon mechanisms for the Commodore D9060 and D9090 IEEE-488 hard disks. I'd love to get a disassembly of the ROMs of thos rives... They have a "DOS Board" (IEEE-488 to SASI) and a "Controller Board" (SASI to ST-506 interface). The drive parameters are in the ROMs of the DOS board. There is a jumper to select 4 heads vs. 6 heads (5Mb and 7.5Mb). Fun drive. -ethan From mor at crl.com Thu Jun 4 09:53:50 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Web pages References: <3.0.1.16.19980603111033.490f57d0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3576B4FE.73EA4ECA@crl.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >Are we talking about the same Tripod here? There's one pop-up (which all of > >them do now on free sites) on only the main page and they're as fast as any > >other. They rarely have a down day either. Evidentally you've never had a site > >on Tripod. Mine's been up a year now and never a problem. > > Thanks for the warning, I'll add Tripod to the list of servers I'm > boycotting. I will not knowingly access any site that pops up windows with > advertisments on my screen. I don't mind it when they've got them inline > with the page itself, I can put up with a couple of banners on the page, > but I will not put up with these (*%&^%(* popup windows! > > I really need to take the time to do up a boycott web page! If we have to be subjected to ads, I actually prefer them to pop up so I can hit the X and make them go away while reading the non-advertising content of a page. A page with ads integrated is more annoying to me. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/tps/ From DGoodwin at smcvt.edu Thu Jun 4 10:57:53 1998 From: DGoodwin at smcvt.edu (Dave Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Looking for a machine Message-ID: <455BFB014181D1119BCB00805F578DF00224EB11@shadow.smcvt.edu> I'm new to the list and wondered if anyone might have a line on a computer I'm looking for. I'd like to acquire a Netronics ELF II in workable condition, preferably with Tiny BASIC though I could live without that. Any leads or info most appreciated. Thanks! Dave Goodwin "In only two days, Systems & Networking Manager tomorrow will be yesterday..." Saint Michael's College Colchester, VT 05439 Homepage: http://personalweb.smcvt.edu/dgoodwin ICQ UIN: 337460 WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/337460 From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Jun 4 11:00:15 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Web pages Message-ID: >> If we have to be subjected to ads, I actually prefer them to pop up so I >> can hit the X and make them go away while reading the non-advertising >> content of a page. A page with ads integrated is more annoying to me. Better still were the 'early' days when all the advertising came from 'known' advert sites - that way you could just put an entry in your hosts file (be it Unix, NT, Win95 or whatever) to redirect the 'known' sitename to your local machine. A 'broken link' image is far more pleasing than an advert IMHO :) (actually Altavista still lets you do this - most sites seem to store the adverts locally these days though and access them via CGI) anyway, enough of this off-topic stuff!! Jules > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Jun 4 11:01:30 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... In-Reply-To: <199806040544.PAA31758@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: I guess it beats the front panel! ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Huw Davies wrote: > At 08:47 PM 03-06-98 -0700, George Rachor wrote: > >Or the 029 card punch! (Sorry I couldn't resist one more!) > > And what's wrong with an 029 I ask? I'd prefer to revise my card punching > skills rather than revise my COBOL skills.... > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 > 1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jun 4 10:59:56 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Web pages In-Reply-To: <35769467.4D4AF301@bbtel.com> References: <35755646.DB41A942@bbtel.com> <199806031848.OAA14217@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980604105956.41e7cd54@intellistar.net> At 07:34 AM 6/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > >> > Don't bother. Tripod adds in so many pop up spam windows and so much >> > graphics that sites on their ISP are unusable. It might be nice for the >> > members to get free E-mail and web sites but I don't even bother to look at >> > them anymore because they're so SLLLOOOWWWWWW! >> >> Joe is right. I hate those guys who have that tripod there. Ditto >> to capesomething and one other like this. >> >> pop! hit x icon, switch page, pop! hit the x icon again. augggh! > >Yet another that is using a Tripod different than the one I'm speaking of, evidentally. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman Russ, I doubt there's more than one Tripod. There's a big difference bewteen being on the posting end and the receiving end! Joe From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jun 4 11:16:40 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Lisa (was: Apple ][ video + headers!) Message-ID: <002701bd8fd4$470b3f00$ae67bcc1@hotze> I'll pay $100 or less for someone to pop a cap up Mike's.... anyway, that was an unreaonable request. It seems that he has been asking in EVERY thread that has the word "Apple" "lisa" or a $ sign in it with the same message. He seems to be a new collector, and perhaps doesn't know that the Lisa is one of those systems that we *ALL* lust over, but very few of us actually get. Heck, I'm about ready to pay $35 for one of those annoying 8080-based Sharp "luggables." But it's got some software... on tape, no less. But... a guy is free to dream. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, June 04, 1998 6:05 PM Subject: Re: Lisa (was: Apple ][ video + headers!) >At 01:31 PM 6/3/98 PDT, you wrote: >>do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. > >Yah right. Me too. Heck, I'll pay $100 or less for an IMSAI, an Altair, a >Sol-20, and an Apple 1 too. Not that anyone will sell it to me. Of >course, I'm not an anonymous nobody popping up from nowhere to quote lotsa >headers from irrelevant messages... From mor at crl.com Thu Jun 4 10:35:24 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Lisa (was: Apple ][ video + headers!) References: <002701bd8fd4$470b3f00$ae67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3576BEBC.13FA2086@crl.com> Hotze wrote: > > I'll pay $100 or less for someone to pop a cap up Mike's.... anyway, > that was an unreaonable request. It seems that he has been asking in EVERY > thread that has the word "Apple" "lisa" or a $ sign in it with the same > message. > He seems to be a new collector, and perhaps doesn't know that the Lisa > is one of those systems that we *ALL* lust over, but very few of us actually > get. Well, I don't know about "lusting" after one, but I was relatively pleased to get the two I have, as they are fairly historical and IMO "kinda cute". There is nothing wrong with a guy trying to get one for less than $100. I paid $40 for one, and got the other in a trade for stuff I had gotten free, so that works out to a bout $20 apiece. The problem is that you won't find those prices from among other collectors! You have to get off the damn internet, get out there in the trenches, and yank this stuff out of the garbage heap! -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/tps/ From dastar at wco.com Thu Jun 4 11:52:15 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Remembering BYTE acticles In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980603195930.3a878eb0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > >> It was just two precision resistor networks connected through > >> CMOS drivers to the address lines of the C64. One network for > >> the lower 8 address lines and one for the upper 8. When the two > >> networks were connected to the XY inputs of a oscilloscope, you > >> had a 256 by 256 pixel display of where in memory the 6510 > >> was executing. > > > >That wasn't the first time that trick had been published in Byte. Steve > >Ciarcia used it in one of his earlier Circuit Cellar articles. But it's a > >very useful trick, and deserves to be shown again. > > There was a guy who was selling videos of (I guess) the same sort of thing > for the Mac at the first VCF. Sam can probably get you info. I thought it > was neat, but being perpetually broke, didn't go for it. Well, the guy at VCF mapped the address, data and register lines of a Pentium (or 486, can't remember) to an oscilloscope. The scope would jump all over the place based on what was being done inside the CPU. I ended up with a copy of the video. It's cool to watch for about the first 10 seconds and then you've seen it all. The video goes on for about an hour showing the operator of a windows PC do different things. Yeeha. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From erd at infinet.com Thu Jun 4 11:56:21 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Radius Monitor In-Reply-To: <35EDF53665@orchid.le.ac.uk> from "Phil Beesley" at Jun 4, 98 01:08:24 pm Message-ID: <199806041656.MAA08539@user2.infinet.com> > > On 3 Jun 98 at 21:42, Frank McConnell wrote: > > > "Lawrence Walker" wrote: > > > One of my recent finds was a Radius Full Page monitor. I has a 9pin Dshell > > > F video socket. It's like a 14 " set on it's side. Does anyone have any info on > > > this beast ? Drivers, what it was used with, etc. > Thanks for the description of the Plus contrivance, Frank. ISTR that > the Plus Full Page Display (FPD) was beige to match the original Mac > colours. That would make the later ones grey to match the later > SE/Mac II family colours. I've got a Radius FPD, and some drivers, but the drivers I have are too new for the firmware on the card. Does anyone out there have old drivers or newer (post v4.1) ROMs? -ethan From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jun 4 12:06:03 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Web pages Message-ID: well,be sure to add geocities to that list! unless there is something i really want to look at there, i will not goto those places anymore. In a message dated 98-06-04 10:47:18 EDT, you write: << Thanks for the warning, I'll add Tripod to the list of servers I'm boycotting. I will not knowingly access any site that pops up windows with advertisments on my screen. I don't mind it when they've got them inline with the page itself, I can put up with a couple of banners on the page, but I will not put up with these (*%&^%(* popup windows! I really need to take the time to do up a boycott web page! Zane >> From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu Jun 4 08:11:49 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! In-Reply-To: <357600E7.CA3D0655@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199806041709.NAA06964@mail.cgocable.net> Guys, Reason I was bit vague and explaining things bit strangely like this but! I love to see you drve in there BUT you have asolutely no idea what they are. All you need is one touch, you get bit or body bag. Reason I warned you that, and triple reason is that you need to get your friendly guy local in your area to point out in like when TV is open so guy can show you where to watch out and explain many components to you so you will understand more fully what they are for. That way, you will live to old age. Seriously. :) By the way, I did some dumb things in my younger days, I got zapped by a bad plug by a one hand. Pulses of zaps. Zapzapzapzap!!! Ditto to when I touched something inside old monitor that is not meant to be touched. Blew up a green neon lamp by mistake, impressive bang. Also one hand behind or in pocket rule is VERY GOOD for one reason. Keeps you safe and prevent you from making full circuit and flash into heap of ashes. Bad Thing to stand in wet or damp spot too. When I was on a job experience (full time), someone had me to discharge the tube with a wire clip grounded to tube wire straps and a long insulated flat screwdriver. Even on a 12" tube, still makes good LOUD SNAP! with bright flash of blue lightening. These guys who taught me that is totally WRONG after a research in proper discharging tubes. Build your own discharging tool, using high quality stuff, using 2 or 3 50 or 100W 10K ohms cermeric resistors in series encased in silicone glue inside a length of insulating tube to prevent arc over. And leave it there for 2 mins just in case. Leave out those microwaves. Simply too dangerous than monitors and switching PSU's. Primary danger is that hunk of capacitor still charged up with high current and at about 5Kv and you have to go very careful to make sure all the seals is good on microwave. It's actually cheaper to just replace that with new microwave than try to fix it. BTW, the connections inside those microwaves is often exposed. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From william at ans.net Thu Jun 4 12:13:59 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Remembering BYTE acticles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, the guy at VCF mapped the address, data and register lines of a > Pentium (or 486, can't remember) to an oscilloscope. The scope would jump > all over the place based on what was being done inside the CPU. This first mention I heard about his trick was for some big iron in the 1960s - I think Burroughs, but do not quote me on that. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jun 4 12:21:08 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Remembering BYTE acticles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > Well, the guy at VCF mapped the address, data and register lines of a > > Pentium (or 486, can't remember) to an oscilloscope. The scope would jump > > all over the place based on what was being done inside the CPU. > > This first mention I heard about his trick was for some big iron in the > 1960s - I think Burroughs, but do not quote me on that. First time I recall seeing this was on a large PDP-11 system many years ago... After about an hour of watching the display you could pretty much tell just what the machine (and RSTS) had going on... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ecloud at goodnet.com Thu Jun 4 12:58:41 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Ataridos needed In-Reply-To: <421cc071.3576112c@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Jun 3, 98 11:14:51 pm Message-ID: <199806041758.KAA23301@goodnet.com> > Since i'm lazy and dont have an easy way to do it, I need ataridos 2.5 or 3.0 > on a 5.25 disk. i can provide blank floppies and any money and postage that > might be needed in order to do so. can anyone help? Mine only has a 3.5" disk. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * VRML * electronics * Gravis Ultrasound * Khoros * emusic * X window * From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 4 13:03:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Web pages Message-ID: <199806041803.AA24404@world.std.com> <<< Thanks for the warning, I'll add Tripod to the list of servers I'm < boycotting. I will not knowingly access any site that pops up windows w < advertisments on my screen. I don't mind it when they've got them inlin < with the page itself, I can put up with a couple of banners on the page < but I will not put up with these (*%&^%(* popup windows! I'm so fed up with spam that I'm setting up a killfile, I've resisted that for a while. FIRST on the list is earthlink.net! Allison From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Jun 4 14:12:12 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13361165145.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Drafting COBOL programmers] You're kidding, right? I make it a point to say I don't know COBOL. This is one draft I'd dodge... (Has anyone read the Common Business-Oriented goLdilocks?) ------- From icyblackhand at hotmail.com Thu Jun 4 14:16:15 1998 From: icyblackhand at hotmail.com (Michael Sheflin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Lisa (was: Apple ][ video + headers!) Message-ID: <19980604191615.22802.qmail@hotmail.com> Thanks. I'll keep looking. (By the way, your right, I am new. I'm 12, so give me a break.) Mike From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Jun 4 14:18:28 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Boston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <199806041318.JAA22490@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <13361166284.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Maybe Compaq will donate Castor and Pollux?] What were those? ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Jun 4 14:45:09 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: What does RT-11 call a TS11 controller? Message-ID: <13361171141.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I need to make sure I have the right .SYS file, what's RT-11 call TS11 tapes? ------- From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 4 14:46:12 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: trash vs. treasure In-Reply-To: <9806040236.ZM29499@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: I bought a grab-bag of surplus stuff yesterday, and it was filled with many interesting oddities, but there are a couple of things somebody else might want more than I do. Before I throw them out or use them as high-tech toothpicks, I don't suppose one of you could use a small supply of 10-micron replacement "picoprobe" tips used to debug chips at the silicon-level. If you're the kind of person that has a working relationship with the neighborhood chip foundry, you'll jump at the chance to grab these for only $10 + shipping for 8 probe tips. Are you fond of fractals, but your PC-AT is generating them too slowly? How about an Iterated Systems 16-bit ISA fractal encoder card, model FTE100. $10 + shipping. (no drivers) -- Doug From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jun 4 13:02:53 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: trash vs. treasure In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 4, 98 02:46:12 pm Message-ID: <199806041802.OAA02914@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Doug Yowza once stated: > > Are you fond of fractals, but your PC-AT is generating them too slowly? > How about an Iterated Systems 16-bit ISA fractal encoder card, model > FTE100. $10 + shipping. (no drivers) Any documentation on that? Anything? -spc (And it's not for fractal generation either, but for compression) From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 4 15:21:58 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: trash vs. treasure In-Reply-To: <199806041802.OAA02914@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Captain Napalm wrote: > > Are you fond of fractals, but your PC-AT is generating them too slowly? > > How about an Iterated Systems 16-bit ISA fractal encoder card, model > > FTE100. $10 + shipping. (no drivers) > > Any documentation on that? Anything? > > -spc (And it's not for fractal generation either, but for compression) Only the card and this email from Iterated: << Unfortunately, we no longer offer or support the drivers for the FTE100. If they were available, depending on the speed of your PC (specifically Pentium class), you would probably determine the FTE100 impaired rather than improved the compression performance compared to a software only compressor. In its era, the FTE100 significantly improved the image compression time. >> -- Doug From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 4 15:53:36 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980604081540.516fca16@ricochet.net> At 08:56 AM 6/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a >>possible draft of Cobol programmers." > >draft agency would have to be Y2K compliant so they can track down and >punish draft dodgers... No need to skip the country... Just tell 'em you were born in *18xx*, not 19xx, so you're too old. "Wish I could help ya with these new fangled computerthings, young feller, but if you ever need a good musket loader, you give me a call, y'hear?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 4 16:03:32 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... Message-ID: <19980604210332.29995.qmail@hotmail.com> Better yet, tell them you were born in 2000! They'll never be able to draft you then! By the way, I heard that there was also a computer issue with Dow Jones hitting 10K. Are there any more similar limitations that will soon be reached? >> >>draft agency would have to be Y2K compliant so they can track down and >>punish draft dodgers... > >No need to skip the country... Just tell 'em you were born in *18xx*, not >19xx, so you're too old. "Wish I could help ya with these new fangled >computerthings, young feller, but if you ever need a good musket loader, >you give me a call, y'hear?" > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From red at bears.org Thu Jun 4 17:28:02 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: trash vs. treasure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Are you fond of fractals, but your PC-AT is generating them too slowly? > How about an Iterated Systems 16-bit ISA fractal encoder card, model > FTE100. $10 + shipping. (no drivers) Hold on, this is kind of a cool thing if it is what I think it is. A couple years ago, Iterated Systems was touting a 'fractal compression scheme' boasting high lossless compression rates. It looked very intriguing---one of the things they were showing off was an 8x zoom on a standard .GIF image (showing all the fatbits) and the same zoom on a fractal encoded image which appeared like a photographic zoom. I wonder if this was a hardware boost for this system? That being said, if you still don't want it, I'd be happy to take it off your hands for the advertised $10 price. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 14:33:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:19 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) In-Reply-To: <199806040059.RAA13936@goodnet.com> from "Shawn Rutledge" at Jun 3, 98 05:59:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 820 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980604/15670501/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 14:43:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! In-Reply-To: <199806040117.LAA30562@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at Jun 4, 98 11:17:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1537 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980604/1b4fa47e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 15:33:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! In-Reply-To: <199806041709.NAA06964@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 4, 98 01:11:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3274 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980604/99043dc4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 15:19:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <357650BA.8D4@pcfa.org> from "Brett Wish" at Jun 4, 98 02:46:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 617 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980604/0bcca230/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 15:13:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 3, 98 11:13:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4598 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980604/2257711e/attachment.ksh From oboissea at club-internet.fr Thu Jun 4 17:27:32 1998 From: oboissea at club-internet.fr (Tara) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: New site!! Message-ID: <35771F54.EE4FB1B9@club-internet.fr> Hi there! Just a word to say that you can go and see my 8-bits devoted site. It's called the 8-bits Rendez-Vous! Actually there's only 50 computers featured but I'm adding a new one nearly every-day. So go there to see if you like and come-back often. There is a lot of infos and pictures and I also present my own collection. Please give me feedback! 8-Bits Rendez-Vous http://perso.club-internet.fr/oboissea/ (best viewed with last versions of IE and Netscape) BOISSEAU Olivier oboissea@club-internet.fr From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 15:21:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: <00dc01bd8fae$28be8d20$104e53c2@MIS2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> from "Pete Joules" at Jun 4, 98 12:44:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 609 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980604/c8971c28/attachment.ksh From ecloud at goodnet.com Thu Jun 4 18:04:16 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 4, 98 09:19:30 pm Message-ID: <199806042304.QAA09150@goodnet.com> > A silly suggestion. Computer-astrology. Your way of thinking is > determined by the computers that were in production at the time of your > birth. No, I don't believe it either :-) More likely, your thinking is determined by the computer which you first heavily used. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * VRML * electronics * Gravis Ultrasound * Khoros * emusic * X window * From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 4 18:07:52 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) Message-ID: <19980604230752.25934.qmail@hotmail.com> Wait, are ST-506 drives the ones with a wide ribbon connector and a narrow one? If so, they are pretty common here. I have a bunch in my desk drawer. BTW, why is MFM so much more popular than RLL? >> > Okay gang. I just can't take it, I gotta help this guy become an atarian. :) >> > Okay, this is what; you need. You need an ATSCI to SCSI converter >> >> OK, but what to do with the system that takes an ST-506 interface drive? I just > >This is a problem that I've been thinking about rather a lot - not for >Ataris, but for old workstations (PERQ, Xerox, etc) that have an ST506 >controller built in to the I/O board. > >I've been thinking of designing an interface that'll link a SCSI or IDE >drive to an ST506 controller. The problem is I'd have to know quite a bit >about the low-level format of the drive so that I could simulate it on >the interface. And that data is not easy to come by. > >But I am worried that ST506 drives are becoming less common every year, >and there's no easy way to repair them. > >-tony > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 14:55:05 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! In-Reply-To: <9806040236.ZM29499@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 4, 98 01:36:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3350 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980604/6224dcd4/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 4 18:16:21 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? Message-ID: <19980604231621.3443.qmail@hotmail.com> So then, I'm a C-64 either way. Kinda discomforting. Maybe I have one of those upgrade cards. I hope I'm running GEOS ;) >> A silly suggestion. Computer-astrology. Your way of thinking is >> determined by the computers that were in production at the time of your >> birth. No, I don't believe it either :-) > >More likely, your thinking is determined by the computer which you first >heavily used. > >-- > _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com > (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud > __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ >* VRML * electronics * Gravis Ultrasound * Khoros * emusic * X window * > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 4 18:21:35 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > A silly suggestion. Computer-astrology. Your way of thinking is > determined by the computers that were in production at the time of your > birth. No, I don't believe it either :-) Now I feel old. I came charging out of the womb around when the PDP-1 and the Heathkit EC-1 were introduced. Let's see, my horoscope says "you will have the urge to play spacewar on an oscilloscope today." -- Doug From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 4 18:24:27 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! Message-ID: <19980604232427.4592.qmail@hotmail.com> I often work on systems with power on. With PCs it's no big deal in terms of my safety. The SE, however, is an incredible pain to repeatedly re/disassemble if my fix doesn't work, so I would like to work on it cover off/plugged in. I'm only dealing with the logic board anyway. That's why I originally asked... By the way, how do people work on machines like the PS/2 Model 25, in which one can only get to the MB when it's not plugged into the PSU? >> > But not everyone has an EHT meter. It's probably OK to use a 10M resistor >> > (prefereably a high-voltage one) and a well-insulated screwdriver to >> > discharge the CRT. Connect one end of the resistor (use clip leads, etc) >> > to the CRT earth and the other one to the screwdriver blade. Then push >> > the screwdriver under the edge of the anode cap and hold it in contact >> > with the metal contact for about 30s. >> >> Most resistors are rated for a 500V or 1kV rather than EHT, so there is a > >That's why I said 'preferably a high-voltage one'. Farnell and Maplin >both sell the Philips HV resistors good to about 10kV. A couple of those >in series. > >> small risk that they'll break down or flash over. Better to use two or >> more in series if you can. >> > >I'd not trust my life to it, but most resistors break down and go to a low >resistance when they flash over, not open. > >> It's also worth pointing out that even 1mA at 15kV is a fair wattage -- >> another reason to use more than one resistor. A large colour CRT might > >Yes, but the energy stored in a CRT is not that great. Resistors burn out >because they overheat, and if there's not enough energy to heat them up, >then they'll not fail. > >> have a 25kV supply. Of course, as Tony points out, usually the CRT will >> discharge when switched off. But if it doesn't, that's just when you don't >> want to find out the limitations of ordinary resistors. (I once proved >> this theory on a Commodore PET). > >'Nice' monitors have EHT bleeders anyway, often as part of the EHT >reguation circuit (the feedback loop consists of a potential divider >across the EHT supply). So the EHT should discharge at switch-off. I >check it anyway with the meter, of course. > >As this is classiccmp, I think I should mention that some vector >displays, like the DEC VR12, VR14, VR17, etc have a mains-derived EHT. >There's a sealed (oil-filled?) can containing a transformer and a voltage >doubler - a schematic is printed on the can. These things can supply >considerable current for short periods - easily enough to kill you. >They're nasty. > >> >> Perhaps this is a good place to mention the "hand in pocket" rule: if >> you're working on a high-voltage system, and one hand is in your pocket, it >> can't be touching a good earth (unless you're even odder than I am :-)) so >> there's a reduced chance of current crossing your body. You used to often >> see TV engineers with one hand in a pocket and an EHT probe in the other. > >Nowadays you see computer preservationists with one hand in their pocket. >I do it whenever I work on HV stuff with the power applied. > >The idea is to prevent the current taking a path through your heart. Down >one leg is possibly OK, arm-arm is not. > >I didn't mention it, because the original poster didn't say he was >planning to do work with the power on. If you are, there's one other rule >that I'll state - Always have somebody nearby who knows how to turn off >the power if anything goes wrong. Never work alone. > >As a practical point, it helps if that person is not either of your >parents, wife/husband, or girl/boyfriend. The reason is that they tend to >cut the power on the slightest problem - like a minor flashover to a >screwdriver, which is very annoying! > >> Pete Peter Turnbull > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 15:01:21 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Web pages In-Reply-To: References: <3576934B.5E67F3DA@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <199806050000.UAA22159@smtp.interlog.com> On 4 Jun 98 at 7:43, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Are we talking about the same Tripod here? There's one pop-up (which all of > >them do now on free sites) on only the main page and they're as fast as any > >other. They rarely have a down day either. Evidentally you've never had a site > >on Tripod. Mine's been up a year now and never a problem. > > Thanks for the warning, I'll add Tripod to the list of servers I'm > boycotting. I will not knowingly access any site that pops up windows with > advertisments on my screen. I don't mind it when they've got them inline > with the page itself, I can put up with a couple of banners on the page, > but I will not put up with these (*%&^%(* popup windows! > > I really need to take the time to do up a boycott web page! > > Zane > Sorry to continue this off-topic thread but this is definitely my pet peeve ! I don't accept cookies so some pages I access I'll have to zap 2 or 3 cookie notices and a banner before I can see anything. A vintage Mac page I was perusing even did it when I clicked on"top of page" rather than scrolled up. These guys are going to have to learn it's as counterproductive as spam is. Unfortunately most of the AOL newbies accept it as the normal state of affairs. I think a boycott list would be a good thing and might even catch the advertisers attention. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 15:01:22 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) In-Reply-To: <199806041519.LAA06601@user2.infinet.com> References: <199806040059.RAA13936@goodnet.com> from "Shawn Rutledge" at Jun 3, 98 05:59:08 pm Message-ID: <199806050000.UAA22178@smtp.interlog.com> On 4 Jun 98 at 11:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > OK, but what to do with the system that takes an ST-506 interface drive? I just > > need to know if I can substitute, say, an ST-251, and how to do the low-level > > format (if necessary). > > If it's a later (post-1985) ST-506 controller, you probably can use an ST-251 > or larger drive. I've got some stuff that's from c. 1981 that assumes a > real ST-506 or TM603 or equivalent, down to the write precomp and reduced > write current. You can't use a newer drive (newer meaning ST-225 and up). > As a result, I've got a box of ST506 and ST412 drives (DEC RD-50 and RD-51), > and a couple of 5Mb Tandon mechanisms for the Commodore D9060 and D9090 > IEEE-488 hard disks. I'd love to get a disassembly of the ROMs of thos > rives... They have a "DOS Board" (IEEE-488 to SASI) and a "Controller Board" > (SASI to ST-506 interface). The drive parameters are in the ROMs of the > DOS board. There is a jumper to select 4 heads vs. 6 heads (5Mb and 7.5Mb). > Fun drive. > > -ethan > I imagine he's talking about the SH205 atari hd. The Seagate 225 can be used with this. There is also an adaptec board available. I can't remember the model but it was something like 4001 and I believe is still available. There was a thread recently on this in comp.sys.atari.st. A check in dejanews should turn it up. Here's an old msg relating to this. I know some m-l recips. have trouble with attachments so my apologies . Flame me if the list prefers reg text and I won't do it again. : ^ )) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com -------------- next part -------------- ? Area: ATARI_ST ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Msg#: 983 Date: 02-25-96 01:13 From: Mark Duckworth Read: Yes Replied: No To: Lawrence Walker Mark: Subj: Re: Mega STE HD problems ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? .FROM Mark Duckworth @FIDO 1:270/421 :From Mark Duckworth On Mon 19-Feb-1996 4:57p, Lawrence Walker said to Dennis Farkas: LW> LW> Dennis, I keep seeing vague references to mfm/rll drives being used on LW> on Ataris. I have an old XT with a Seagate 225 mfm and a STf 2.5m LW> without LW> a HD. I also have a Linc2 and Icd disk but haven't had the dosh yet to LW> buy a scuzzy. Is it possible to install the mfm in my ST ? Any info LW> would LW> be appreciated. LW> LW> Thanks Larry LW> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 LW> Sure there is... Just get yourself one of those old SH205 or any other Adaptec adapter boards.. Call 1800 directory and ask for the number to Adaptec.. They will sell you one but you might be able to find one on here. Once you get it, the drive will have to be formatted.. If you have ICD, you are on your own.. You can use ICD to format the MFM but I would just buy an SCSI drive.. They are better and a LOT faster.. Besides you don't REALLY need a case for one making them cheeper.. Do what someone else I know does, just lay the internal drives on your desk and use external/internal cable interface.. It works (so I hear)... -!- I am the thing that goes bump in the night... Wolf -!- CNet/3 ! Origin: The Junkyard BBS (717) 394-2910 (1:270/421) -!- * OrigFiFo:2.1o 1:270/421 (Fnet 0) From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 15:01:24 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... In-Reply-To: <01IXTZO9E41UASFPL7@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <199806050000.UAA22205@smtp.interlog.com> On 4 Jun 98 at 8:56, Roger Ivie wrote: > >>From the yk2 Newsletter : > > > >"The federal government is in dire need of technical resources to fix the > >Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a > >possible draft of Cobol programmers." > > What, we don't have time to fix the Y2K problem but we _do_ have time to > build a whole new bureaucracy to mobilize the nation? Of course, the new > draft agency would have to be Y2K compliant so they can track down and > punish draft dodgers... > > I guess it wouldn't do any good to skip off to Canada because _they'd_ > probably draft you, too. > > Roger Ivie > ivie@cc.usu.edu > No way ! In ww1 a government got booted for trying that and even in WW11 they didn't dare institute a full draft. Mind you we do have Corel and a few others wwho haven't moved south yet. "Give us your tired,your poor, your huddled masses etc." that the US rejects. We'll take anybody. All that empty space y'know. Unfortunately because of the cold and the black flies and mosquitos we huddle for the most part on a thin strip along the US border. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 15:01:25 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Radius Monitor In-Reply-To: <35EDF53665@orchid.le.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199806050000.UAA22222@smtp.interlog.com> On 4 Jun 98 at 13:08, Phil Beesley wrote: > On 3 Jun 98 at 21:42, Frank McConnell wrote: > > > "Lawrence Walker" wrote: > > > One of my recent finds was a Radius Full Page monitor. I has a 9pin Dshell > > > F video socket. It's like a 14 " set on it's side. Does anyone have any info on > > > this beast ? Drivers, what it was used with, etc. > > > > Mac. I've seen one on what I think was a IIcx (maybe IIci), and > > another on on my mother's Mac Plus. The IIc[xi] interface is a NuBus > > card. The Plus interface is a daughterboard contrivance that sits > > atop the 68000 on the Plus mainboard (and hooks up with springs to a > > couple of other signals); it brings the video out through the security > > slot on the back of the Plus. > > Thanks for the description of the Plus contrivance, Frank. ISTR that > the Plus Full Page Display (FPD) was beige to match the original Mac > colours. That would make the later ones grey to match the later > SE/Mac II family colours. > > Phil > ************************************************************** Thanks for that interesting tid-bit. The FPD I have is grey, so it must be a later model . ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 15:01:20 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Ataridos needed In-Reply-To: <421cc071.3576112c@aol.com> Message-ID: <199806050000.UAA22233@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Jun 98 at 23:14, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > Since i'm lazy and dont have an easy way to do it, I need ataridos 2.5 or 3.0 > on a 5.25 disk. i can provide blank floppies and any money and postage that > might be needed in order to do so. can anyone help? > > david > I have them but it would likely be easier to find them on the web since I'm also lazy. Several dealers supply them as well as Mydos and SpartaDos on disk. Look for Best Electronics or B and C Computers. Spartados is also available on cartridge. I wasn't able to find their URLs. B&C advertizes regularly on comp.sys.atari.8bit. The OS are also in the UMich archives but that involves transferring them to disk. Stay away from Dos 3, it's buggy as hell. I'm attaching the FAQ Welcome list for csa8bit. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com -------------- next part -------------- From: Michael Current Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit,comp.answers,news.answers Subject: Welcome to comp.sys.atari.8bit! Supersedes: Followup-To: comp.sys.atari.8bit Date: 9 Feb 1998 15:42:55 GMT Organization: Carleton College Summary: This posting contains a list of Periodic Informational Postings about Atari 8-bit computers. X-Last-Updated: 1997/11/24 Originator: faqserv@penguin-lust.MIT.EDU Xref: news.interlog.com comp.sys.atari.8bit:54274 comp.answers:29721 news.answers:120633 Archive-name: atari-8-bit/welcome Posting-Frequency: 7 days Last-modified: November 22, 1997 Welcome to comp.sys.atari.8bit, the Usenet newsgroup for discussion about the Atari 8-bit family of computers! These include the 400, 800, 1200XL, 600XL, 800XL, 65XE, 130XE, 800XE, and the XE Game System. Many topics are covered over and over again. To help alleviate this trend, several people volunteer their time and energies by maintaining Periodic Informational Postings for this newsgroup. Please take a moment to refer to these documents before posting to comp.sys.atari.8bit. The answer to your question may already be readily available! Users of comp.sys.atari.8bit actively maintain the following Periodic Informational Postings: Atari 8-Bit Computers: Frequently Asked Questions / Michael Current mailto:mcurrent@carleton.edu http://www.faqs.org/faqs/atari-8-bit/faq/ Atari 8-Bit Computers: Vendors and Developers / Michael Current mailto:mcurrent@carleton.edu http://www.faqs.org/faqs/atari-8-bit/vendev/ Atari 8-bit New User, Emulator Help FAQ / Bill Kendrick mailto:kendrick@zippy.sonoma.edu http://zippy.sonoma.edu/kendrick/nbs/new_and_emu.html (English) http://zippy.sonoma.edu/kendrick/nbs/new_and_emu.espanol.txt (Spanish) Atari BBS List / Trevor Holyoak mailto:trevor@holyoak.com http://www.holyoak.com/atari/ Atari 8-bit Hardware Upgrade, Modification and Add-On FAQ / David A. Paterson mailto:davepat@total.net http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/1878/hard_faq.htm Atari Computer User Groups / Rich Tietjens mailto:atari@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~atari/ugbbs.htm From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 15:01:24 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Ataridos needed In-Reply-To: <199806041758.KAA23301@goodnet.com> References: <421cc071.3576112c@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Jun 3, 98 11:14:51 pm Message-ID: <199806050000.UAA22197@smtp.interlog.com> On 4 Jun 98 at 10:58, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > > Since i'm lazy and dont have an easy way to do it, I need ataridos 2.5 or 3.0 > > on a 5.25 disk. i can provide blank floppies and any money and postage that > > might be needed in order to do so. can anyone help? > > Mine only has a 3.5" disk. > That's an ST disk and except for the earliest ST the os (TOS) was in ROM. Dave is referring to Atari 8-bit mchns. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From wpe at interserv.com Thu Jun 4 19:02:07 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... References: <199806040235.AA28604@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3577357F.6CBD09E7@interserv.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > <"The federal government is in dire need of technical resources to fix th > < > < > > Confusing, oblique, boring, overated and longwinded. Other than that > likely I'd be the first draft with a minimum age! ;) > > Allison Are they gonna' provide "three hot's and a cot"? Awwright! Prepare to fall out with manuals and lineprinter spacing charts!!!!!!!! 8^) Will From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 4 19:12:45 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard ) In-Reply-To: <3728E00B83@orchid.le.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199806050012.KAA04067@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 02:22 PM 04-06-98 +0100, Phil Beesley wrote: >Can anyone clarify the memory situation for A/UX? Well I can confirm that 8Mb works as my A/UX IIcx has 8Mb. The only reason it didn't have more was that I was paying for it, and the cost of 8Mb of memroy and 200Mb of disk, plus computer was lots. You tend to forget how much disk space used to cost, I've got the bill somewhere for the 200Mb Quantum SCSI disk - it was over AUD$2K. Total system cost was about $10K :-( Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 4 19:22:38 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) Message-ID: <199806050022.AA25116@world.std.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 4, 98 04:24:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980605/84858528/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 4 19:31:49 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... Message-ID: <199806050031.AA03005@world.std.com> <> Confusing, oblique, boring, overated and longwinded. Other than that <> likely I'd be the first draft with a minimum age! ;) <> <> Allison < References: Message-ID: >On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > >> A silly suggestion. Computer-astrology. Your way of thinking is >> determined by the computers that were in production at the time of your >> birth. No, I don't believe it either :-) > Somehow, comparing my thinking to the Atanasoff and the Z3 is kind of depressing... R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From aaron at wfi-inc.com Thu Jun 4 20:07:59 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:20 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... In-Reply-To: <199806050000.UAA22205@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > I guess it wouldn't do any good to skip off to Canada because _they'd_ > > probably draft you, too. "Cobol if necessary, but not necessarily cobol." -- Mackenzie King[fisher] (Silly joke for fellow Canadians....) From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 4 20:30:28 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Apple ][ video In-Reply-To: <35769181.76D425B6@crl.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > Michael Sheflin wrote: > > > > do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. > > Good luck! One recently went for $1,350.00 at eBay. And that was for a Lisa 2. I don't get it. The Lisa 2 has little historical significance, and nobody I know feels any nostalgia towards one. Here's what Newsbytes had to say about it: << 1985 May 07 (NB) -- Apple has kicked the Mac XL out of the house, convinced its sex-changed offspring is a dud. Apple will halt production of the XL (formerly the Lisa) "this summer", marking the second major failure in a year in the product's two year history according to InfoCorp. Compare that to the investment of $70 million developing the machine. Sad, but true. Savvy buyers quickly noticed the high price, slow speed and lack of software as the Lisa's biggest drawbacks. Meanwhile Apple has also revealed that "a period of slower sales" is ahead. Advertising budgets are being cut as are workers. 25 people in a Garden Grove, California manufacturing plant lost their jobs in March. Another 50 will go by August 1 from Irvine, California as Apple consolidates West Coast operations in Cupertino. >> BTW, I just picked up a coffee-table book called "Apple Design" which shows a lot of pretty pictures of Apples and Apple prototypes. The Lisa appears to be the only machine whose product name matched its project name. Apple seemed to be into girl's names at the time. The Apple /// was developed under the project name "Sara." Who was Lisa named after, anybody know? -- Doug From desieh at southcom.com.au Thu Jun 4 20:45:35 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Lisa (was: Apple ][ video + headers!) Message-ID: <00ac01bd9023$a30c7680$fc173ccb@mr-ibm> email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm a computer is only worth what the next guy is prepared to pay for it.............. -----Original Message----- From: Uncle Roger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, June 05, 1998 1:05 Subject: Re: Lisa (was: Apple ][ video + headers!) >At 01:31 PM 6/3/98 PDT, you wrote: >>do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. > >Yah right. Me too. Heck, I'll pay $100 or less for an IMSAI, an Altair, a >Sol-20, and an Apple 1 too. Not that anyone will sell it to me. Of >course, I'm not an anonymous nobody popping up from nowhere to quote lotsa >headers from irrelevant messages... > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Jun 4 20:52:00 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Web pages References: <35755646.DB41A942@bbtel.com> <199806031848.OAA14217@mail.cgocable.net> <3.0.1.16.19980604105956.41e7cd54@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <35774F3F.F4EFE5A7@bbtel.com> Joe wrote: > I doubt there's more than one Tripod. There's a big difference bewteen > being on the posting end and the receiving end! Want to guess what the opening page is on my browser? My website, and the browser is set to completely reload a page at every visit so it's not cached. I beleive that puts me on the recieving end as well, daily. Sorry for posting information that someone might want to use. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 4 21:00:17 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: <199806042304.QAA09150@goodnet.com> References: Message-ID: <199806050200.MAA04447@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 04:04 PM 04-06-98 -0700, Shawn Rutledge wrote: >More likely, your thinking is determined by the computer which you first >heavily used. I don't know about that - maybe my sense of nostalgia is fueled by fond memories of the DECsystem-10 that I spent so much time using, but I rather prefer to work with the 366MHz Alpha that I'm typing this on (it's running NT, so sue me :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 4 21:02:04 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Web pages In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980603111033.490f57d0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Joe wrote: > Don't bother. Tripod adds in so many pop up spam windows and so much > graphics that sites on their ISP are unusable. It might be nice for the > members to get free E-mail and web sites but I don't even bother to look at > them anymore because they're so SLLLOOOWWWWWW! The annoying pop-ups come from a little JavaScript. In netscape, you can disable JavaScript and the pop-ups go away. I generally find that Java and JavaScript (which, of course, are two completely unrelated languages) are used to either annoy me or to crash my browser, so I disable them both. -- Doug From tomowad at earthlink.net Thu Jun 4 21:26:12 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Apple ][ video Message-ID: <199806050226.TAA13009@sweden.it.earthlink.net> >BTW, I just picked up a coffee-table book called "Apple Design" which >shows a lot of pretty pictures of Apples and Apple prototypes. The Lisa >appears to be the only machine whose product name matched its project >name. Apple seemed to be into girl's names at the time. The Apple /// >was developed under the project name "Sara." Who was Lisa named after, >anybody know? The Lisa was named after the daughter of Steve Jobs, Lisa Nicole. Officially, Lisa stood for "Logical Integrated Software Architecture." The names of females, usually family of Apple employees, were often used to code name projects at Apple in the late 70's/early 80's. Tom Owad From kyrrin at jps.net Thu Jun 4 21:34:42 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: FW: FREE MicroVAX II in Indianapolis! In-Reply-To: <6l603v$btm$1@gte1.gte.net> References: <6l603v$btm$1@gte1.gte.net> Message-ID: <357f58dc.592680209@smtp.wa.jps.net> Heads up fellow DECers! Found this on Usenet. If any of you are in or near Indy, this is a good chance to get a decent MV-II in your collection. Please contact the fellow directly if you're interested. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:36:35 GMT, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>From: sterin@gte.net (Tom Sterin) >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,in.forsale,misc.forsale.computers.workstation >>Subject: MicroVAX II - FREE >>Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:36:35 GMT >>Organization: gte.net >>Lines: 19 >>Message-ID: <6l603v$btm$1@gte1.gte.net> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust211.tnt14.chi5.da.uu.net >>X-Auth: C518D3425A9884C254CD8491 >>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news.burgoyne.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!nntprelay.mathworks.com!worldfeed.gte.net!news.gte.net!not-for-mail >>Xref: blushng.jps.net comp.sys.dec:1003 in.forsale:193 misc.forsale.computers.workstation:1074 >> >>Free to a good home: >> >> MicroVAX II in a "World Box" deskside enclosure >> 16 MB RAM >> 1G hard disk (+/-) >> 8 serial ports >> TK50 tape drive >> 2 floppy >> VT320 & keyboard >> Letterwriter 100 >> spare parts and documentation >> >>Pick it up in Indianapolis or pay for shipping. Call or email for >>more information. >> >>Tom Sterin >>317-633-4757 >>sterin@gte.net -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Jun 4 22:03:29 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ/Alice Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 (xpost) Message-ID: <35776000.D9DE8275@bbtel.com> You guys and gals that are interested had better jump on this one that I pulled from the Obsolete Computer helpline: >>Simon Shiff >>Palmdale, CA USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 19:36:25 >> >> Would like to know the value of an Altair 8800 in mint condition. >> Serial No. 1004. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jun 4 23:04:03 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (nerdware@laidbak.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: SCO Question In-Reply-To: <3574CB9C.89E39EBF@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199806050401.XAA19317@garcon.laidbak.com> Thanks, Ward. I'll give it a shot when I get the FreeBSD box up and running and find out if the two tape drives I have even work. Paul Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Jun 4 23:21:48 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: 4004/8008 in calculators? Which ones? Message-ID: <35917169.548788836@hoser> Recently, someone made the comment that the 4004 and 8008 were used in some old calculators. Can anyone supply brands and/or models that would have used these? My company is having a big junk sale of tables, chairs, and old calculators and typewriters soon, and the state is having an auction this weekend. I already snuck into the store room and opened up one of the oldest calculators, but it had some big 40-pin ceramic chip on it with a number I'd never heard of. I'll probably pick up a couple just because they have some nice nixie tubes in them, if they go cheap enough, but I'd like to score some old CPUs at one of these events if they're there. Any suggestions? -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From rax at warbaby.com Fri Jun 5 00:56:12 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Wire Recorder Message-ID: This is not about computers, but it's vintage tech so it's almost on topic... Just picked up a very cool miniature battery operated wire recorder and I need to find out what sort of battery it originally used - or at least to find out what voltage it takes so I can try it out. Also would like to find out more about it - date, original cost, etc. It's a Minifon Special, made by Protona (Hamburg, Ger.). The battery compartment measures 1.25 x 3.5 inches, with a flat, brass spring contact at either end. It's a beautiful little machine, in mint condition, complete with fitted pigskin case. Even the original spool of hair-thin wire is unbroken. Outside dimensions are 4 x 6.5 x 1.25 inches and it's finished in a sort of goldish-cream textured lacquer. There are two din sockets on the front, one with three pins for the mike (included), and another, unmarked, with nine pins. Anybody know anything about this little gem? Surely someone on the list goes back far enough to have seen one of these... R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 5 00:07:55 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: 4004/8008 in calculators? Which ones? In-Reply-To: <35917169.548788836@hoser> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Bill Richman wrote: > Recently, someone made the comment that the 4004 and 8008 were used in > some old calculators. Can anyone supply brands and/or models that > would have used these? The story goes that the 4004 was the result of a deal made between intel and Busicom, the calculator guys. So if you see a calc that looks like this one: http://hightech.cplaza.or.jp/1996/19960617/19960617/jpg/0649.JPG buy it, but don't take the chip out of it! It's probably worth a fortune. (The picture is reportedly of a Busicom calc sitting on the desk of Gordon Moore.) Another story goes that the 8008 was co-designed by a maker of terminals (Datapoint, I think), but they didn't use it in the end (too slow, I think). But you're more likely to find an 8008 in a terminal than in a calc. > My company is having a big junk sale of > tables, chairs, and old calculators and typewriters soon, and the > state is having an auction this weekend. I already snuck into the > store room and opened up one of the oldest calculators, but it had > some big 40-pin ceramic chip on it with a number I'd never heard of. > I'll probably pick up a couple just because they have some nice nixie > tubes in them, if they go cheap enough, but I'd like to score some old > CPUs at one of these events if they're there. Any suggestions? People do collect calculators, you know. I wouldn't mind finding something like a Sharp EL-8 http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/7227/shar_can.jpg Buy all of the nixie-tube calcs you can carry. I think they go for around $50 each at e-overpay. If you want to buy an 8008, this guy will sell you one for $200! http://members.aol.com/fuboco/chip.htm -- Doug From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 5 00:51:14 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Bootstraping a PDP-11 of Serial Line, How? Message-ID: OK, logically I can send the bootstrap for the RL02 drive over the serial line since I'm running TELIX on a 486 for a console at the moment. The problem is the /73 doesn't support RL02's, and I'm getting tired of typing in all those numbers. Therefore the question is, how should I format the file that I send to the PDP-11? I've tried formating it two different ways and all I get is garbage sent to the PDP-11. I'm sending as straight ASCII. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Jun 5 01:15:44 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: "Computer Hobbyist" + Homebrew computers Message-ID: <199806050615.XAA15273@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Hi All, I have found all but issue No.4 of "The Computer Hobbyist", written in 1975. Has anyone found this issue and would be willing to trade copies? Am also thinking of building a early/mid 1970's era computer. If made with "old stock" parts, how would it fit in with the other "classic" computers as far as the history? The original factory made types (Altair, Mark 8, SWTP) sound too hard to find and too much money for me. Am thinking of using Vector type cards with the common 2x22 pin edge connector. If more pins are needed, there is the 56 pin "STD" bus size or the 2x36 pin connectors. The S-100 bus seems to have many more pins than needed. Cards would be the roughly 4.5 x 6.5 inches. Cards used to be sold in this size using the 2102 static ram's, I think 4k. The 2102's are still relatively easily found, as well as standard TTL IC's. In 5 or more years, this may not be true. Sure there are 62256 static ram chips, 27256's, etc, but they came later. -Dave From william at ans.net Fri Jun 5 01:20:01 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Agreed. But such details are not lost by putting in 'original' spare > parts - parts that would have been used to keep it working anyway. Yes, that is a good point. In the case of the PDP-8, I think the card would have been part of a valid restoration attempt. > Sometimes the history of a particular machine is important. > In the latter case, IMHO, it should be perfectly acceptable to combine > parts of 2 machines to make one working one, or to put in new (or NOS) > spare parts. I will agree here. Historical fabric (the official term for the history of a specific artifact) for some machines is very deep, (for example, some of the RS/6000 "T3Bs" I have mentioned in the past - actually probably harder to find individual machines that did more to the world) and should really be hacked on much. If the fabric is lost forever (maybe if you picked up a new PERQ at a radio rally/hamfest, and the seller had no idea where the machine came from, or even what it is), restoring the machine is not going to rip it further. > That's what's broken. Often a machine is taken out of service because > it has failed. I do not think that is the case with the big/professional stuff (sorry micro guys). I would say that 99 out of 100 are retired in fully operable condition. New or old, the good stuff like VAXen, Ciscos, AS/400s, etc. just does not fail very often. > The aim should be to restore it using original parts (or > NOS parts, or even new parts that are functionally equivalent to the > old), so that the function of the machine is preserved Oh, I am all in favor of restoration, but I do think that one should try to preserve the machine as best one could. Every repair changes a machine, maybe a little, maybe a lot. The changes add up over time on all of the machines out there, then you end up with a bunch of torn historical fabric. Witness what has become of the classic cars from the 1940s - so many have been souped up, chopped, and modified, that it is now very hard to find one in restorable cherry condition. The same thing has happened to many classic military aircraft - sure there are quite a few P-51s left, but only a few are even _close_ to being original. Now I know that I tend to be a bit preachy and extreme about this, but we only keep our computers for a short amount of time. When we die, the computers do not come with us - hopefully they fall into the hands of other interested folks. In a sense, we are only gaurdians. I can not force people to make "responsible" repairs or modifications - I am sure a lot of people think I am talking out of my butt - but I can try to slow down the inevitable degradation our computers go thru while in use. > We've had this discussion before (and we'll have it again). Its a hell of a bunch more fun then the past flame wars. > I'll drag out > the standard 'test case'. You've got a computer system. To make it > interesting, we'll make it a rare one, less than 10 remaining. A chip has > failed. You've got an electrical replacement, but from a different > manufacturer and with a different date code. What do you do? OK, lets take my Interdata 14. As you may know, ten captive survivors may be in excess for all Interdatas. A chip blows (I think it uses DTL - it has been a while), perhaps a weird one. If I really wanted the machine working again, I might kludge up a functionally equivalent module and solder it on the board in such a way that the pads do not take to much abuse. I would then go on a search for a suitable replacement, of the same manufacturer and date code. Even though the type might be mighty weird, one will show up on some scrap boards. I might have to wait a while, but just about any chip can be found if one actively looks. When the proper chip is found, a proper repair is made. Of course the old, blown chip is filed away and suitable documentation is made up. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rax at warbaby.com Fri Jun 5 04:11:58 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William Donzelli wrote: (snip) >Now I know that I tend to be a bit preachy and extreme about this, but we >only keep our computers for a short amount of time. When we die, the >computers do not come with us - hopefully they fall into the hands of >other interested folks. In a sense, we are only gaurdians. I can not force >people to make "responsible" repairs or modifications - I am sure a lot of >people think I am talking out of my butt - but I can try to slow down the >inevitable degradation our computers go thru while in use. > Excellent point. I worked at the Metropolitan Museum for ten years, and the concept that we don't 'own' historical objects - we are caretaker or guardians - was unaviodable. It's hard to think of 'owning' something that has been around for a thousand years or more and outlasted many 'owners'. Our responsibility as guardians is to insure the survival of these artifacts in as original condition as possible for the next guardian. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From jb at chromatic.com Fri Jun 5 03:59:25 1998 From: jb at chromatic.com (jb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Wang 2200 Message-ID: <3577B36D.5247C2FE@chromatic.com> While searching the web for references to machines that I grew up on, I found a posting of yours: > Having just received the donation of a Wang 2200 mini for the > Windsor Science Centre, (no documentation of course,) am wondering > if anyone can give me any information on it? > We also received a Kim-1, but lots of info on that. > > Thanks > Charlie Fox The first machine I programmed on, in 1978 & 1979, were a pair of Wang 2200 machines; one was a Wang 2200S. Just to be sure, since I'm not informed on any machine Wang made other than the 2200, it was a "desktop" unit with integrated monitor and a rounded cabinet design. I don't know if it will help, but here's what I recall of the machines. The 2200S was more sophisticated of the pair, as it had lower-case character generation ability. Both machines had a 32KB ROM that implemented Wang's dialect of BASIC. Both had 8KB of RAM. Both used digital cassette tape drives. The BASIC was/is pretty sophisticated in that it had a whole host of matrix operations. It was primitive in that, like most BASICs of the day, all variables were either a single letter or a letter and number. The only basic types were float and string; there were no INTs or such. So, I see you posted that about half a year ago. Did you end up finding out more? Would you consider selling the machine? Anyway, good luck. From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 01:50:26 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) In-Reply-To: References: <199806040059.RAA13936@goodnet.com> from "Shawn Rutledge" at Jun 3, 98 05:59:08 pm Message-ID: <199806051049.GAA24710@smtp.interlog.com> On 4 Jun 98 at 20:33, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Okay gang. I just can't take it, I gotta help this guy become an atarian. :) > > > Okay, this is what; you need. You need an ATSCI to SCSI converter > > > > OK, but what to do with the system that takes an ST-506 interface drive? I just > > This is a problem that I've been thinking about rather a lot - not for > Ataris, but for old workstations (PERQ, Xerox, etc) that have an ST506 > controller built in to the I/O board. > > I've been thinking of designing an interface that'll link a SCSI or IDE > drive to an ST506 controller. The problem is I'd have to know quite a bit > about the low-level format of the drive so that I could simulate it on > the interface. And that data is not easy to come by. > > But I am worried that ST506 drives are becoming less common every year, > and there's no easy way to repair them. > > -tony > IIRC this is almost what the card in the Atari SH205 did . It changed the MFM to SCSI and then changed the SCSI to ATASCI . I don't have one but I imagine it is well documented in Atari circles BTW I have an old SpinRite with a doc that warns about the danger of RLL ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 5 07:38:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: 4004/8008 in calculators? Which ones? Message-ID: <199806051238.AA29796@world.std.com> <> state is having an auction this weekend. I already snuck into the <> store room and opened up one of the oldest calculators, but it had <> some big 40-pin ceramic chip on it with a number I'd never heard of. <> I'll probably pick up a couple just because they have some nice nixie <> tubes in them, if they go cheap enough, but I'd like to score some old <> CPUs at one of these events if they're there. Any suggestions? Well if it's a 40 pin it's not a 4004/8008 as they were small 18 pins packages. If you get a number or logo off it it may be identfiable here. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 5 07:38:56 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Bootstraping a PDP-11 of Serial Line, How? Message-ID: <199806051238.AA29926@world.std.com> References: <01IXTZO9E41UASFPL7@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980605090727.006ab60c@mail.wincom.net> At 08:01 PM 6/4/98 +0000, you wrote: >On 4 Jun 98 at 8:56, Roger Ivie wrote: > >> >>From the yk2 Newsletter : >> > >> >"The federal government is in dire need of technical resources to fix the >> >Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a >> >possible draft of Cobol programmers." >> >> What, we don't have time to fix the Y2K problem but we _do_ have time to >> build a whole new bureaucracy to mobilize the nation? Of course, the new >> draft agency would have to be Y2K compliant so they can track down and >> punish draft dodgers... >> >> I guess it wouldn't do any good to skip off to Canada because _they'd_ >> probably draft you, too. >> >> Roger Ivie >> ivie@cc.usu.edu >> >No way ! In ww1 a government got booted for trying that and even in >WW11 they didn't dare institute a full draft. Mind you we do have Corel >and a few others wwho haven't moved south yet. > > "Give us your tired,your poor, your huddled masses etc." that the US >rejects. We'll take anybody. All that empty space y'know. Unfortunately >because of the cold and the black flies and mosquitos we huddle for the >most part on a thin strip along the US border. > >ciao larry >lwalker@interlog.com > > Don't forget the 18 wheelers colliding with the polar bears on Highway 401! Cheers Charlie Fox From mor at crl.com Fri Jun 5 07:14:24 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Apple ][ video References: <199806050226.TAA13009@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3577E120.7DC1F850@crl.com> Tom Owad wrote: > > >BTW, I just picked up a coffee-table book called "Apple Design" which > >shows a lot of pretty pictures of Apples and Apple prototypes. The Lisa > >appears to be the only machine whose product name matched its project > >name. Apple seemed to be into girl's names at the time. The Apple /// > >was developed under the project name "Sara." Who was Lisa named after, > >anybody know? > > The Lisa was named after the daughter of Steve Jobs, Lisa Nicole. > Officially, Lisa stood for "Logical Integrated Software Architecture." > The names of females, usually family of Apple employees, were often used > to code name projects at Apple in the late 70's/early 80's. Perhaps a habit Jobs picked up from Atari. The 2600 was coded named and is still affectionately known as Stella. I forget the others off-hand, but most Atari products had girls names as well. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 5 10:01:24 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980605100124.00c415c0@pc> At 05:43 PM 6/4/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Somehow, comparing my thinking to the Atanasoff and the Z3 is kind of >depressing... Speaking of, Atanasoff's son is in the computer business, I bumped into him at a COMDEX several years ago. There's an interesting replica site at . It looks like they're still searching for an original IBM card punch Model #010 for the restoration. See the photo page for details. - John From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 5 12:17:55 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: "Computer Hobbyist" + Homebrew computers In-Reply-To: <199806051239.AA29978@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > I'm not trying to kill homebrew but having done it...well I have no > problem with building a mark 8 useing an 8008 and some modern rams > as it not an antique and it would save days of work. Anybody know where I can find a reprint of the Mark 8 article? A good web-ized version would do the trick. > dddameron@earthlink.net... > > If you hadn't posted to the list I would not have seen this as earthlink > is in my killfile due to excessive porn spam. IF anyone needs to email > me they will ahve to use another ISP. earthlink.net is one of the better anti-spam ISPs. They were one of the first to win a lawsuit against a spammer. For details, see http://www.earthlink.net/nethelp/spam/ What you are seeing are most likely forged headers, an almost universal practice among spammers. If you can, take a minute to look at the real headers to track down the offending site. It is often an unsuspecting site that left their mail server open to be used as a spam relay. I've had good success in getting sites to close up these relays, get spammers to lose their accounts with the originating ISP, and even get entire ISPs shut-down (at least temporarily) by their upstream ISP. Try it -- it's a fun and rewarding hobby :-) -- Doug From jon at techniche.com Fri Jun 5 13:00:44 1998 From: jon at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: "Computer Hobbyist" + Homebrew computers Message-ID: <199806051800.OAA14958@camel7.mindspring.com> After a fair amount of effort on my part, I found and obtained a copy of the July 1974, Radio-Electronics mag that has the cover story "Build the Mark-8, your personal minicomputer". I was less than delighted to find that in this instance, R-E left out most of the construction details (including any skematics). They have an offer on the second page of the article where you should order the kit with circuit board patterns, and the rest of the details. The article includes some theory of ops, a parts list and a few photos. Although I'd love to see all these old mags on-line, I guess the copyright issue will prevent that from happening. Jon >On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> I'm not trying to kill homebrew but having done it...well I have no >> problem with building a mark 8 useing an 8008 and some modern rams >> as it not an antique and it would save days of work. > >Anybody know where I can find a reprint of the Mark 8 article? A good >web-ized version would do the trick. > >> dddameron@earthlink.net... >> >> If you hadn't posted to the list I would not have seen this as earthlink >> is in my killfile due to excessive porn spam. IF anyone needs to email >> me they will ahve to use another ISP. > >earthlink.net is one of the better anti-spam ISPs. They were one of the >first to win a lawsuit against a spammer. For details, see > http://www.earthlink.net/nethelp/spam/ > >What you are seeing are most likely forged headers, an almost universal >practice among spammers. If you can, take a minute to look at the real >headers to track down the offending site. It is often an unsuspecting site >that left their mail server open to be used as a spam relay. I've had >good success in getting sites to close up these relays, get spammers to >lose their accounts with the originating ISP, and even get entire ISPs >shut-down (at least temporarily) by their upstream ISP. Try it -- it's a >fun and rewarding hobby :-) > >-- Doug > > From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Jun 5 13:31:06 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: "Computer Hobbyist" + Homebrew computers Message-ID: <199806051831.LAA15013@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Thanks for the information. At 08:39 AM 6/5/98 -0400, Allison wrote: >If you want to run the software of the era using more modem parts would >not prohibit tht but could be easier to work with. For example one 62256 >32kx8 ram replaces 256 2102s! I assure you after wirewrapping and >debugging 4k of 2102(32 of them plus TTL) the x8 parts suddenly look a >lot better. > Yes, I still have some 1101A rams and wiring them would be even 4X worse! By the way, they have "ETC 4" stamped on them. I have seen this on other IC's. Does anyone know what it means? >I'd suggest finding one of the non first line machines or nearly so like >an IMSAI, Northstar, Compupro, CAlifornia Computers, SWTP, or other >machine that were still from the 70s. > Have been looking for over a year in thrift shops, etc. The only thing I've seen was a Kaypro or Osborne, when I went back to examine it, it was gone. >I'm not trying to kill homebrew but having done it...well I have no >problem with building a mark 8 useing an 8008 and some modern rams >as it not an antique and it would save days of work. > >You could also build with z80 (circa 1976) it is still used and common, >it runs virtually tons of software and there are PC emulators for it as >well. > Yes, a z80 is pretty easy to use. I built a small unit about 1991 with a 6116 ram and a monitor in a 2716 with a 8255 as I/O as a piece of test gear. It has been handy to test LCD displays, ram chips, etc. I was going to use a Mac to Sunol card which had a z80, 2764, 6264, and 74LS244 type ic's as I/O, as well as RS422, but tracing the circuit to find the I/O addresses took too long. >dddameron@earthlink.net... > >If you hadn't posted to the list I would not have seen this as earthlink >is in my killfile due to excessive porn spam. IF anyone needs to email >me they will ahve to use another ISP. > Earthlink is my first ISP, is it widely known for this? Are others much better? All the spam I've seen in newsgroups doesn't seem to be earthlink, but most doesn't have a "from" address anyway. The email spam is annoying, haven't noticed any particular place where it comes from. -Dave From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 5 13:35:52 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: "Computer Hobbyist" + Homebrew computers In-Reply-To: <199806051800.OAA14958@camel7.mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Jon Healey wrote: > After a fair amount of effort on my part, I found and obtained a > copy of the July 1974, Radio-Electronics mag that has the cover > story "Build the Mark-8, your personal minicomputer". I was > less than delighted to find that in this instance, R-E left out > most of the construction details (including any skematics). > They have an offer on the second page of the article where > you should order the kit with circuit board patterns, and > the rest of the details. The article includes some theory of > ops, a parts list and a few photos. Actually... about a year ago as part of my efforts to re-create a 'Mark-8', I contacted Gernback Publications and was able (with suitable begging and pleading) to get them to loan me the last existing masters for the article series AND the construction package. Now, before you go deluging them with reqests: (which they probably are not equipped to handle) as part of my communication with them, they authorized me to provides copies (re-prints?) of this package (this one only, this is NOT carte blanche!) to any other hobbiests who were interested in the 'Mark-8'. Now, it should be stated that I did NOT broach the question of publishing this on the web, and I would not be comfortable doing this. However I will be happy to provide copies of the package to interested parties for the cost of materials. While I had the originals (which have long since been returned BTW) I did make a good set of photocopies, and did a set of (reasonably) high resolution scans of the entire set, so I can provide sets in either form. NOTE: the original printing plates that generated the PC board alyouts were accidentally over-exposed (this was obvious on viewing of the masters, and later confirmed by the publisher) so there is some places on the PC board layouts where traces have run together. Don't go off and start bruning board masks without carefully examining the layouts first. I have been trying to get the time to correct the PC board layouts, but have not completed this to date. It should also be noted that unless you have a stash of 1101 static RAM chips somewhere, the memory board will need to be revised for some other chip (I was thinking 2102s), and there are two parts on the memory/address latch board that are long out of production. (and I've not found a second source on) But back on topic... If anyone would like a copy of this document set, drop me a note. I'd suggest that to avoid generation loss in copying the docs yet again you consider sending along a blank CD-R disc with a SASE for its return, and I'll provide you with the scanned (TIFF) files. (no charge) It's WAY too big for floppies! If you require printed copies, it would be just the cost of printing and postage. (...and if you make a new set of PC boards, I want one too!) B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at wco.com Fri Jun 5 13:39:35 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Nicolet 1080 rescued Message-ID: Well, I finally got around to picking up a Nicolet computer that's been waiting for me at California State University Sacramento for the better part of a year. Along the way a heap of HP stuff was added to the pile, and I ended up having a whole trailer full of rackmount gear, racks, punch card readers, disk packs, paper tape, and more. Since I'm sure not many of you have ever heard of Nicolet Instrument Corporation (Madison, Wisconsin), I'll tell you what I know so far. The NIC-1080 is a 20-bit computer circa 1972. It has an assembler and a BASIC via paper tape programs. I haven't determined how much memory it has yet, although the computer has core in it, and I got a second Extended Memory Unit (a separate box). When it was decommissioned a couple years back it was still fully functional. The computer is integrated into a big console with an o-scope display and a plotter. This machine used to be connected to a magnetic resonance imaging unit weighing several tons that was thankfully hauled away by scrappers last year. It has special circuitry for doing fast fourier transforms. It came with a Diablo 5meg removeable hard drive in a separate rack, along with a Decitek paper tape reader (serial interface). The computer has a serial interface, and a TI Silent 700 came along with it, which was the primary console. I also got a couple big boxes filled to the brim with paper tape software. Nicolet formed a "Nicolet User's Society" whereby user's could submit programs, and so there is plenty of public domain software on punched-tape. I also got a complete set of spare boards for the computer. The spares came out of another Nicolet which was dismantled. The other Nicolet came from the China Lake Naval testing facility in the Mojave Desert so I'm sure it performed some interesting calculations in its day. Its a pretty fascinating machine. Its about the size of an upright piano and weighs around 300 pounds. If you want to know more about it just ask. If anyone wants to see pictures I can post them to the Vintage Computer Festival web page. I also got a whole pile of cool HP stuff, including a 9830B Calculator with a whole bevy of peripherals, a couple punch card readers, a printer, plotter. Here's a complete list of the haul: Nicolet 1080 Computer NIC 1080E Extended Memory Unit (core memory) Decitek Paper Tape Reader NIC Disc Memory Coupler Diablo Systems Inc. Series 30 Disk Drive (7 disk packs) TI Silent 700 (thermal paper terminal) Complete Nicolet paper tape library (over 100 different paper tapes including debuggers, assemblers, BASIC, misc. programs) Complete set of spare boards for Nicolet HP 9830B Calculator Complete manual set About 20 program cassettes ROM Packs FP-78 Batch BASIC (Infotek Systems) Ext. I/O ROM Eliminator (Infotek Systems) FP-96 Data Communications I (Infotek Systems) 11273B Mass Memory Mass Memory II (Infotek Systems) Infotek Systems FD-30A Mass Memory (8-inch drive for 9830, stacks on top of 9830) HP 9866A Printer (stacks on top of FD-30A) HP 9862A Calculator Plotter HP 9869A Calculator Card Reader HP 2761A Optical Mark Reader HP 9868A I/O Expander PS. I committed the stupidest mistake any computer collector could. I totally forgot about the disk pack loaded into the hard drive. I never checked to make sure the heads were locked. In my defense, I couldn't remove the pack because the unit won't let the drive door be opened without power. Does anyone know about the Diablo Series 30 and what the proper procedure would be for locking the heads? Is the disk pack in their most likely messed up now? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Jun 5 13:51:10 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... Message-ID: <13361423459.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I got a 68010 chip today... On a visit to my pile at SSI, I saw a sadly disfigured rack out back. Went to have a look at it. It was a PBX, based off a PDP-8 and some custom boards. The top part of the rack, the 8, and most of those custom boards were completely destroyed. Seems the cleaning morons, when told to move the rack elsewhere, decided to pitch it in the trash compactor. Rack proved stronger than trash compactor, and they gave up, picked it out of the compactor, and left. The 8 is now a mini-mini computer. It's too damaged to deal with. I pried the lid off and looked inside, the backplane was demolished, and the cards were mashed to 1/2 height. I couldn't even remove them from the case. Good thing is, the custom boards were the intersting parts. I got a 68010 chip and some miscellaneous socketed chips. There was a few Texas Instruments boards, those were trash. Split in half. I picked at it for awhile, stole the ROMs and some ribbon cables, and left it. Anyway, What's a 68010 do? Anyone have pinouts/assembler refrences/etc? Can I make it do something interesting? ------- From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 5 14:00:53 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Nicolet 1080 rescued In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Since I'm sure not many of you have ever heard of Nicolet Instrument > Corporation (Madison, Wisconsin) I've run into their test equipment. They're still in business: http://www.niti.com/Who_is_Nicolet.html > I'll tell you what I know so far. The > NIC-1080 is a 20-bit computer circa 1972. It has an assembler and a BASIC > via paper tape programs. I haven't determined how much memory it has yet, > although the computer has core in it, and I got a second Extended Memory > Unit (a separate box). Cool. When's the reboot party? -- Doug From peacock at simconv.com Fri Jun 5 14:13:20 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E90B@mail.simconv.com> Anyway, What's a 68010 do? Anyone have pinouts/assembler refrences/etc? Can I make it do something interesting? ------- IIRC it has the same pinout as a regular 68000. The difference is in how it handles page faults from the external MMU. On the original 68000 an instruction could not be restarted if there was a memory error (i.e. it referenced a non-existent real address). The 68010 could restart, which meant it could use true virtual memory, providing there was an MMU to help things along (I think it was the 68450 MMU, then the 68550 PMMU ?). I think there was a slight difference in the instruction set too. The atomic instructions for semaphores were flagged somehow so the OS would know to generate an error instead of an instruction restart (look up p/v semaphores if you are curious as to why atomic instructions cannot be restarted). Jack Peacock From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 5 14:08:23 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Nicolet 1080 rescued In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980605140823.00c16100@pc> At 11:39 AM 6/5/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >Since I'm sure not many of you have ever heard of Nicolet Instrument >Corporation (Madison, Wisconsin), I'll tell you what I know so far. The >NIC-1080 is a 20-bit computer circa 1972. It has an assembler and a BASIC >via paper tape programs. I've got a few friends who work at Nicolet, and it's just 30-40 minutes from here. I visited a few months ago to pick up a dead Microvax and Vaxstation. In the same junk room, I saw an old Nicolet computer, still in use - although I don't remember the model number. There were racks and racks of nine-track tapes, each containing spectra data from their spectrographic analysis of thousands of substances. Most notable about the Nicolet computers is the hard-wired Fourier routines that were only recently out-paced by the 486/66. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 5 14:05:40 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... In-Reply-To: <13361423459.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980605140540.00c84530@pc> At 11:51 AM 6/5/98 -0700, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >I got a 68010 chip today... >Anyway, What's a 68010 do? Anyone have pinouts/assembler refrences/etc? >Can I make it do something interesting? Dan, you're just so darn cute. (It's a slightly better version of the 68000 - Mac, Amiga, etc.) - John From dastar at wco.com Fri Jun 5 14:35:09 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... In-Reply-To: <13361423459.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On a visit to my pile at SSI, I saw a sadly disfigured rack out back. Went > to have a look at it. It was a PBX, based off a PDP-8 and some custom boards. I think this was actually a voicemail system. I've read about this and have been on the lookout ever since for once. I'm still trying to find out the exact name and manufacturer of the system so I can hit up my suppliers. It was apparently a relatively popular voicemail system (and there were only a handful of manufacturers of voicemail systems in the late-70s/early-80s) so it may be easier to find one of these than an actual PDP-8. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From Marty at itgonline.com Fri Jun 5 14:43:25 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: AMPEX FLOPPY Circa 1965 Message-ID: <1998Jun05.154228.1767.109233@smtp.itgonline.com> A friend of mine collects and restores old reel to reel tape drives. He recently showed me an Ampex 1080 (I'll have to double-check this model number) audio recorder capable of 3 3/4 minutes of recording time. Interestingly, this recorder uses a magnetic oxide covered mylar floppy disk of about 12" diameter which doesn't have a sleeve by the way (this disk puts the flop in floppy- it is extremely limp). Of course this is serial access and analog, but could IBM had been inspired by this unit? The recorder was a flop (pun intended) commercially. The operation and service manual are copyrighted 1965 and 1967. I looked for patent material on the original IBM floppy at their patent server as advertised on the list but didn't come up with anything on the first IBM floppy drive. Any info would be greatly apppreciated. Marty From william at ans.net Fri Jun 5 16:16:23 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: AMPEX FLOPPY Circa 1965 In-Reply-To: <1998Jun05.154228.1767.109233@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: > Interestingly, this recorder uses a magnetic oxide covered mylar > floppy disk of about 12" diameter which doesn't have a sleeve by the > way (this disk puts the flop in floppy- it is extremely limp). Another interesting way to form magnetic media was used by some dictation machines - basically a closed loop of very wide tape, only a few inches in diameter. > Of > course this is serial access and analog, but could IBM had been > inspired by this unit? Probably, but it also just seems like an obvious solution to a problem. The floppy was invented for distributing new microcode for the S/360s, and came into being just around 1970. The original design goal was to make a low density portable disk, but it became apparent that they could not make a flying head device cheaply. They settled for a floppy medium, so the head could contact the slow moving disk without a problem. One of the big design problems was to make the drives precise enough so any drive could read any diskette, yet without the incredibly high quality machining need for standard hard disks. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gene at ehrich.com Fri Jun 5 16:20:28 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: For Sale Lists on the WEB (was Re: TI/99A Stuff) In-Reply-To: <35719F1E.32051C8A@navix.net> References: <01bd8c18$e7342560$LocalHost@laptop> Message-ID: <199806052121.OAA25243@mxu4.u.washington.edu> Try the TI page on my web site listed below At 11:19 AM 5/31/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hello: > >Sorry to send this to the list, but I was unsuccessful in getting this to the Come see my new web site at: http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Lot's of For Sale lists. Bookmark it and check back often for updates. Please tell your friends. I look forward to hearing from you in the future. Let me know what you think of it. Gene From william at ans.net Fri Jun 5 16:23:15 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... In-Reply-To: <13361423459.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: > It was a PBX, based off a PDP-8 and some custom boards. > The top part of the rack, the 8, and most of those custom boards were completely > destroyed. Wat king of PDP-8? And is thier really no chance of salvaging some of the boards, even just to pull chips? > Anyway, What's a 68010 do? Halfway between a 68008 and a 68012. Seriously, the 68010 is essentially a slightly upgraded 68000, to make dealling with a MMU a little easier. > Anyone have pinouts/assembler refrences/etc? Bother Motorola for some databooks - they are quite good, and free. > Can I make it do something interesting? Sure, but if you want to play with a M68K chipset, I would look into using a 68020 - thet are cheap and are a little easier to interface to. William Donzelli william@ans.net From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Jun 5 16:33:12 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13361452956.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Any chance of saving that 8?] Nope. I couldn't even pull the remains of the boards - they were wedged in too tight. I went back and checked - the rest is gone now. ------- From gene at ehrich.com Fri Jun 5 16:42:44 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: 8 Bit Computer Items for sale In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980602100526.2f5fc354@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199806052143.OAA28782@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Hardware & Software items for the following: Atari Apple II Amiga C64 CoCo VIC 20 TI 99/4A PC Come see my new web site at: http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Lot's of For Sale lists. Bookmark it and check back often for updates. Please tell your friends. I look forward to hearing from you in the future. Let me know what you think of it. Gene From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 12:57:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: 4004/8008 in calculators? Which ones? In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 5, 98 00:07:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980605/de4e2180/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 13:17:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 5, 98 02:20:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6221 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980605/22a2e9c5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 13:23:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "Rax" at Jun 5, 98 01:11:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1028 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980605/609455bf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 12:49:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? The actual Atari Answer :) In-Reply-To: <199806051049.GAA24710@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jun 4, 98 06:50:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1170 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980605/059cb3e6/attachment.ksh From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Jun 5 18:45:00 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Spotted for sale: Superbrain Message-ID: <359882cf.618778736@hoser> I might be interested, but it's in the UK. Anyone else? >I am trying to sell a Superbrain and associated software. > >I am trying uk.adverts. computer but wondered if anyone could suggest >anywhere else. > >Vic Lilley >vlilley@netcomuk.co.uk -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 18:50:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: Nicolet 1080 rescued In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 5, 98 11:39:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 724 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980606/2a5a472b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 19:06:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:21 2005 Subject: AMPEX FLOPPY Circa 1965 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 5, 98 05:16:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 600 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980606/c493e97b/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 5 21:22:09 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... In-Reply-To: <13361423459.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >Anyway, What's a 68010 do? Anyone have pinouts/assembler refrences/etc? >Can I make it do something interesting? IIRC, when you replace a 68000 in an Amiga with one of them the Amiga will be 14% faster. However, some software would no longer work on it, as it is slightly different, slightly faster than a standard 68000. I gather this was actaully a popular Amiga upgrade in day's gone by. I don't know if this trick would work in a Macintosh or Atari (for all I know there might have been a model of Atari that used it, none of the Mac's did). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 5 21:17:34 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Bootstraping a PDP-11 of Serial Line, How? In-Reply-To: <199806051238.AA29926@world.std.com> Message-ID: >11/73 does support RL02, I know I have one connected. When the /73 >come up if the switches are set tight it will either boot straight away >or prompt for a boot. Ah yes, BUT my 11/73 is a model of SMS-1000 which unfortunatly does not support the RL02's. All it supports DU:, TK50, and one other device. Eventually I want to add a MXV11 and maybe SCSI, then relocate it to a BA23 enclosure (BA23's go great at the end of a couch :^). >If you send a formatted file it must look exactly like what you type right >down to the LFs (without CRs). If you aare typing it in to a file to send >likely CRs are being added where you dont want them. I wrote it originally under DOS, then redid it under UNIX. I'll have to double check that I've got LFs and not CRs. Thanks for the confirmation. I figured it was along these lines I was having difficulty. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From william at ans.net Fri Jun 5 23:14:08 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Agreed... But for a technical artifact, 'original condition' implies that > it works IMHO. Most computers (for example) worked when they left the > factory. Like the Coleco Adam? > IMHO it's a very shallow viewpoint to examine a technical object, > whatever it may be, on the basis of the appearence of the components. > There are (IMHO) idiots who hide new capacitors in the empty cases of the > old ones, just so an old radio looks right. I do not have a problem with doing that, _provided_ that the part is obviously "filled". A non-removable tag stating the repair, cleverly hidden but clearly obvious to anyone doing an audit, is my standard. With this, the object could be viewed and photographed without the distraction of the tag, yet if anyone was to study the components, the truth would clearly be revealed. > What I do it to mount up the > new one without drilling large (or preferably any) holes and make a note > that the component has been replaced. And keep the old one. Yes! > Before all you radio collectors flame me, let me point out that we don't > know how a future collector will examine the set. He may well open up the > capacitor cans. And if he finds a second can hidden inside he may thing > that's how it was made at the factory. And that would be a Bad Thing. Documentation, documentation, documentation... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Jun 5 23:32:29 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yes, but that need not be lost by replacing parts IMHO. It can (see below). > IMHO none of the history of that machine has been, or will be, lost by > repairing it. It'll be electrically identical to the service manuals when > I've finished. And it'll be displaying images again. But electrically identical only addresses the function of the machine. What about the construction of the machine? If some ICs are replaced with those of another vendor, and the pulled parts trashed or lost (it happens, as they are often seperated from the machine), how does one know that the manufacturer of the computer used the first vendor? This issue might get very interesting in ten years, with the current x86 chip wars, where marketing is more important than performance. For the older machines that we enjoy, some of the weirder manufacturers and variations can get forgotten (like 74xx TTL made by Sylvania, or National 74xx in white ceramic and gold packages!). > I still can't understand why restoration -- meaning using identical parts > to the original ones, maybe with different date codes or from different > families (LS .vs. L TTL, for example) loses the fabric of a machine. > We're not talking about modifications here. > Perhaps I've just been unlucky, but 90% of the minis and workstations > that I've saved have needed minor repairs (dirty contacts, burnt-out > bulbs, defective fans, maybe the odd blown chip) to get them back to > perfect condition. Maybe they have been sitting around in sheds and cellars? I am always decomissioning stuff, and it almost is still quite functional. > We are not talking about modification. But sometimes repairs turn into modifications. > Of course by doing that I complement the museums :-). They preserve > unrestored machines that don't work but are in some sense original, > whereas I repair machines (hopefully in a responsible manner) so that > they work and can be demonstrated, but maybe not all parts are quite the > right date. My point is that if one chooses, a happy medium can be met - full functionality and little torn fabric. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 5 23:39:35 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: DANGER! 17,000 VOLTS! References: Message-ID: <3578C807.3DA6F4F2@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Nowadays you see computer preservationists with one hand in their pocket. > I do it whenever I work on HV stuff with the power applied. > > The idea is to prevent the current taking a path through your heart. Down > one leg is possibly OK, arm-arm is not. And try to make sure that the floor is dry -- a room containing puppies, babies or other young animals not yet housebroken often won't qualify. > > I didn't mention it, because the original poster didn't say he was > planning to do work with the power on. If you are, there's one other rule > that I'll state - Always have somebody nearby who knows how to turn off > the power if anything goes wrong. Never work alone. > > As a practical point, it helps if that person is not either of your > parents, wife/husband, or girl/boyfriend. The reason is that they tend to > cut the power on the slightest problem - like a minor flashover to a > screwdriver, which is very annoying! You don't know _my_ family. They love the aroma of meat sizzling, and human flesh didn't get the nickname "long pork" by accident. Yes, I prefer my backup be unrelated to me. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 5 23:53:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... References: <19980604210332.29995.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3578CB3E.5647A4C0@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > Better yet, tell them you were born in 2000! They'll never be able > to draft you then! > By the way, I heard that there was also a computer issue with > Dow Jones hitting 10K. Are there any more similar limitations that > will soon be reached? The Dow Jones hitting five digits is a problem in the display department, not the calculation department. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jwindle at comteck.com Sat Jun 6 04:46:04 1998 From: jwindle at comteck.com (James Windle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Acer Acros Message-ID: <000701bd912f$edd08c80$f9ba2dd1@jwindle> Hello I was wondering if you could tell me the jumper settings for the mother board. I am having trouble with the ps2 mouse port causing the system to lock up. Thanks Jim Windle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980606/478e8e91/attachment.html From guerney at uq.net.au Sat Jun 6 08:26:58 1998 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Nicolet 1080 rescued Message-ID: <005601bd914e$c8bdcb00$32f665cb@default> A Nicolet computer (maybe the same model) was one of the first computers I ever used, and most certainly the smallest up until then. It was attached to a Bruker NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance) instrument at the University of Sydney when I used it as a research student from about 1975 or 76. It did real time fast fourier transforms and interfaced directly to the Bruker instrument. I think I remember people using it for other computing (maybe with BASIC loaded) when they could get some time on it. For a while, all it had was a teletype and paper tape punch/reader and that was my first experience in the use of front panel switches to load a bootstrap paper tape loader and then through the sequence of punched tapes until the final program was loaded. Of course you never turned it off if you could help it. Later it acquired a twin magnetic tape unit but I had finished my graduate research then and never experienced that luxury. Phil Guerney Brisbane Australia guerney@uq.net.au -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail Date: Saturday, June 06, 1998 4:43 AM Subject: Nicolet 1080 rescued >Since I'm sure not many of you have ever heard of Nicolet Instrument >Corporation (Madison, Wisconsin), I'll tell you what I know so far. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 6 09:38:41 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Compaq Portable in OZ????? In-Reply-To: References: <00c001bd82df$c2596bc0$0f01a8c0@mr-ibm> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980606093841.006d39c8@pop3.concentric.net> If you are still looking for one let me by private e-mail. John At 05:12 PM 5/24/98 +1030, you wrote: >Hi! > >>anyone on this list in OZ have a original Compaq Portable they want to >>sell/trade or give away?? > >Have you had any luck? And why in particular are you after one of these? I >picked up one today for my collection, although it is a plus, and at this >stage I would rather keep it. However someone had offered me one >previously and I can try and chase that one up, and I am pretty sure I have >seen one or two elsewhere around Adelaide. > >Adam. > > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 6 10:04:01 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs in Apple II case? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980606100401.006e6490@pop3.concentric.net> Yes I have one too and from the last listing on them they were early prototypes used to test market the gs board inside them. At 12:27 PM 5/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >I just acquired an Apple IIgs that is in an Apple IIe style case! > >It's not a conversion or anything, it's original from Apple. It looks >exactly like a IIe except for the model emblem and the back panel. > >Perhaps it's something Apple did for the educational market, to make it look >like the other machines they were used to, and incorporating a built-in >keyboard which would be less fragile than the multi-piece regular IIgs >series. > >Anybody ever heard of these? > >Kai > > From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 6 10:42:34 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) References: Message-ID: <3579636A.D442C45D@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > I do not think that is the case with the big/professional stuff (sorry > > micro guys). I would say that 99 out of 100 are retired in fully operable > > condition. New or old, the good stuff like VAXen, Ciscos, AS/400s, etc. > > just does not fail very often. > > Perhaps I've just been unlucky, but 90% of the minis and workstations > that I've saved have needed minor repairs (dirty contacts, burnt-out > bulbs, defective fans, maybe the odd blown chip) to get them back to > perfect condition. Minis and mainframes are usually fully operable when they are retired, (they'd better be -- the service contract is usually still going strong) but the warehouses they are retired to are not usually the best of all possible computer storage environments. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 6 10:52:28 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? References: <199806050200.MAA04447@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <357965BC.9C83F2A8@cnct.com> Huw Davies wrote: > > At 04:04 PM 04-06-98 -0700, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > > >More likely, your thinking is determined by the computer which you first > >heavily used. > > I don't know about that - maybe my sense of nostalgia is fueled by fond > memories of the DECsystem-10 that I spent so much time using, but I rather > prefer to work with the 366MHz Alpha that I'm typing this on (it's running > NT, so sue me :-) No reason to sue you, but it probably wouldn't have to be rebooted so often if it was running Linux. (This Linux Pentium just rebooted for the first time in two months -- a two hour power failure, and I don't have power backup that lasts that long -- time to upgrade). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 6 11:02:44 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... References: Message-ID: <35796824.5F81C1BA@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >Anyway, What's a 68010 do? Anyone have pinouts/assembler refrences/etc? > >Can I make it do something interesting? > > IIRC, when you replace a 68000 in an Amiga with one of them the Amiga will > be 14% faster. However, some software would no longer work on it, as it is > slightly different, slightly faster than a standard 68000. I gather this > was actaully a popular Amiga upgrade in day's gone by. > > I don't know if this trick would work in a Macintosh or Atari (for all I > know there might have been a model of Atari that used it, none of the Mac's > did). The MC68010 is the heart of my favorite computer ever, the AT&T Unix PC (built by Convergent Technologies). I've got three, two work fine, one is for parts. _Still_ the prettiest machines in my collection. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jrice at texoma.net Sat Jun 6 11:06:43 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:22 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... References: <35796824.5F81C1BA@cnct.com> Message-ID: <35796913.F2E3EA0F@texoma.net> I just ordered a 68010 for my Amiga 1000 from a collector and recycler of Amiga parts. I was told the main speed increase would be in memory intensive operations. James Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > >Anyway, What's a 68010 do? Anyone have pinouts/assembler refrences/etc? > > >Can I make it do something interesting? > > > > IIRC, when you replace a 68000 in an Amiga with one of them the Amiga will > > be 14% faster. However, some software would no longer work on it, as it is > > slightly different, slightly faster than a standard 68000. I gather this > > was actaully a popular Amiga upgrade in day's gone by. > > > > I don't know if this trick would work in a Macintosh or Atari (for all I > > know there might have been a model of Atari that used it, none of the Mac's > > did). > > The MC68010 is the heart of my favorite computer ever, the AT&T Unix PC > (built by Convergent Technologies). I've got three, two work fine, one > is for parts. _Still_ the prettiest machines in my collection. > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 07:05:50 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980605090727.006ab60c@mail.wincom.net> References: <199806050000.UAA22205@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199806061603.MAA01465@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Jun 98 at 9:07, Charles E. Fox wrote: > At 08:01 PM 6/4/98 +0000, you wrote: > >On 4 Jun 98 at 8:56, Roger Ivie wrote: > > SNIP > >> > >> I guess it wouldn't do any good to skip off to Canada because _they'd_ > >> probably draft you, too. > >> > >> Roger Ivie > >> ivie@cc.usu.edu > >> > >No way ! In ww1 a government got booted for trying that and even in > >WW11 they didn't dare institute a full draft. Mind you we do have Corel > >and a few others wwho haven't moved south yet. > > > > "Give us your tired,your poor, your huddled masses etc." that the US > >rejects. We'll take anybody. All that empty space y'know. Unfortunately > >because of the cold and the black flies and mosquitos we huddle for the > >most part on a thin strip along the US border. > > > >ciao larry > >lwalker@interlog.com > > > > > Don't forget the 18 wheelers colliding with the polar bears on Highway 401! > Cheers > Charlie Fox > Ah Charlie, you don't count. Us Canucks know you live south of Detroit. : ^ )) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 08:22:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 6, 98 00:14:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 928 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980606/40fd6c6c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 08:29:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 6, 98 00:32:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2180 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980606/f232ce0c/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 6 11:21:06 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... Message-ID: <19980606162106.17357.qmail@hotmail.com> What do you mean? I'm not too familiar with stocks, so I don't have any idea what Dow Jones IS, never mind where and how it's displayed. >Max Eskin wrote: >> >> Better yet, tell them you were born in 2000! They'll never be able >> to draft you then! >> By the way, I heard that there was also a computer issue with >> Dow Jones hitting 10K. Are there any more similar limitations that >> will soon be reached? > >The Dow Jones hitting five digits is a problem in the display >department, not the calculation department. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at wco.com Sat Jun 6 11:52:04 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Nicolet 1080 rescued In-Reply-To: <005601bd914e$c8bdcb00$32f665cb@default> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, Phil Guerney wrote: > A Nicolet computer (maybe the same model) was one of the first computers I > ever used, and most certainly the smallest up until then. It was attached to > a Bruker NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance) instrument at the University of > Sydney when I used it as a research student from about 1975 or 76. It did > real time fast fourier transforms and interfaced directly to the Bruker > instrument. I think I remember people using it for other computing (maybe > with BASIC loaded) when they could get some time on it. The Nicolet main control unit was actually branded with the Bruker logo, which I found interesting. The manual I have shows a picture of the main control unit expcept the buttons and dials of the front panel are placed differently, and the logo on the front of it says FabriTek Instruments, Inc. It seems Nicolet either OEM'd the computer from or to other companies. It's hard to tell since other modules in the computer are Nicolet branded. There's one more component in the system I got that is Bruker branded. The Nicolet has a BASIC, so it can do general purpose computing. Iwould venture to guess that I have at least one more high level language in the hundred or so paper tapes I received, not to mention the 7 5MB disk packs. > For a while, all it had was a teletype and paper tape punch/reader and that > was my first experience in the use of front panel switches to load a > bootstrap paper tape loader and then through the sequence of punched tapes > until the final program was loaded. Of course you never turned it off if you > could help it. Later it acquired a twin magnetic tape unit but I had > finished my graduate research then and never experienced that luxury. Thanks for sharing your experience. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jun 6 11:51:36 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... Message-ID: <001401bd916b$870c4b60$3367bcc1@hotze> Well, if you want a job in computers, then you'll have to get used to it.... ;-) Think LCD dipslays. Big, numeric ones. Kinda like trying to add 999999999+1 on a 8-digit calculator. Ciao, Tim "NASDAQ Lover" Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, June 07, 1998 1:24 AM Subject: Re: Uncle Sam wants... > > > > >What do you mean? I'm not too familiar with stocks, so I don't have >any idea what Dow Jones IS, never mind where and how it's displayed. >>Max Eskin wrote: >>> >>> Better yet, tell them you were born in 2000! They'll never be able >>> to draft you then! >>> By the way, I heard that there was also a computer issue with >>> Dow Jones hitting 10K. Are there any more similar limitations that >>> will soon be reached? >> >>The Dow Jones hitting five digits is a problem in the display >>department, not the calculation department. >>-- >>Ward Griffiths >>They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >>Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. >> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 6 11:58:36 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Apple ][ video In-Reply-To: <19980603203123.6058.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980606115836.00764664@pop3.concentric.net> I have 5 let me know if you still need one by private e-mail. At 01:31 PM 6/3/98 PDT, you wrote: >do any of you have a Lisa, if so, I'll pay $100 or less. >Thanks >Mike > >>From classiccmp-owner@u.washington.edu Tue Jun 2 13:47:55 1998 >>Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) >> by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with >SMTP >> id NAA20925; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:26:41 -0700 >>Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu >[140.142.32.9]) >> by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with >ESMTP >> id NAA55834 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 >13:22:06 -0700 >>Received: from mailq1.ncal.verio.com (mailq1.ncal.verio.com >[204.247.247.43]) >> by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with >ESMTP >> id NAA05068 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 >13:22:06 -0700 >>Received: from shell.wco.com (root@shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) >> by mailq1.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06776 >> for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:22:05 -0700 >(PDT) >>Received: from shell (dastar@shell [199.4.94.16]) >> by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id NAA25569 >> for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:21:59 -0700 >(PDT) >>Message-Id: >>Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:21:53 -0700 (PDT) >>Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >>Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >>Precedence: bulk >>From: Sam Ismail >>To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > >>Subject: Re: Apple ][ video >>In-Reply-To: > >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >>X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >>X-Sender: dastar@shell >>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN >> >>On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: >> >>> I found an Apple RGB monitor---the one with the electric tilt >>> mechanism---at a thrift store the other day. It was styled like it >>> belonged to some sort of older Apple ][ but I don't know which of >them >>> came with RGB output besides the //gs. Certainly not my ][plus! >>> >>> So what's the story on this beast and what did its DB15 connect to? >> >>You need to find an RGB interface for an Apple ][ now. There were a >few >>different ones made, the most popular seeming to be called "Video 7". >Its >>a card that plugs into slot 7 (which in the Apple is tied into some >>special video circuitry) and has two probes which attach to two points >on >>the motherboard. >> >>Good luck. >> >>Sam Alternate e-mail: >dastar@siconic.com >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >>Ever onward. >> >> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 >> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! >> [Last web page update: 05/30/98] >> >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 4 08:25:13 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Free TRS m100 Message-ID: <199806061723.NAA08455@smtp.interlog.com> Came across this in the Tandy ng. Boston area heads-up. Reply to the poster not the postman. ciao larry From: "Peter Nelson" Newsgroups: comp.sys.tandy Subject: Model 100 for FREE Date: 6 Jun 1998 15:18:50 GMT I'm moving and in cleaning out my house I came across a Model 100 along with case, AC adapter and manual that I bought many years ago. I have no use for this anymore, - my wife and I have graduated to bigger things: we're wiring up our new house for 100base-T; we maintain an NT network and have an IBM Thinkpad 760 for a laptop. But I did power up the Model 100 and it still seems to work. Does anyone know if someone might have a use for this little laptop? I'd hate to toss it in the trash if someone could still use it; on the other hand I'm very busy with my move so I don't want to have to work too hard to find a home for it. FWIW I live about 35 miles west of Boston, Massachusetts. ---peter lwalker@interlog.com From tomowad at earthlink.net Sat Jun 6 15:56:31 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <199806062056.NAA25751@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I'm reading _Build Your Own Macintosh and Save a Bundle_ and it has an interesting reference to early Mac clones. The book states: "The same Apple Macintosh Powerbooks that legitimized the whole Macintosh portable area have spelled the death knell for most other third-party Macintosh portable builders who cannot compete with Apple's overwhelming manufacturing economies of scale. While Outbound continues to flourish-thanks to a wisely forged legal agreement and clever positioning of their Macintosh portable models versus the Apple Powerbooks-I question their long-term staying power. Most other third-party Macintosh portable vendors have either gone out of business entirely or have quietly dropped their portable offerings." Does anybody know anything about these "thrid-party Macintoshes?" I'm familiar with the Outbound computers, I have never even heard of any other early Mac clones. Any info? Thanks, Tom Owad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 11:27:19 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <3579636A.D442C45D@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jun 6, 98 11:42:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980606/12f9bc9e/attachment.ksh From jwindle at comteck.com Sat Jun 6 16:44:41 1998 From: jwindle at comteck.com (James Windle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Acer Acros Message-ID: <001401bd9194$510f81c0$5eba2dd1@jimdesk> Hello I was wondering if you could tell me the jumper settings for the mother board. I am having trouble with the ps2 mouse port causing the system to lock up. Thanks Jim Windle From erd at infinet.com Sat Jun 6 17:10:58 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... In-Reply-To: <35796913.F2E3EA0F@texoma.net> from "James L. Rice" at Jun 6, 98 11:06:43 am Message-ID: <199806062210.SAA10634@user2.infinet.com> > > I just ordered a 68010 for my Amiga 1000 from a collector and recycler > of Amiga parts. I was told the main speed increase would be in memory > intensive operations. > > James There is a one-instruction pipeline/cache that allows memory copying loops to execute significantly faster. If you want to copy a buffer to a single word (output port), or move hunks of memory, _and_ you can express it in a single MOV/DBcc pair of instructions, you get the win. Other than that, the big benfit of the 68010 are useless to AmigaDOS - instruction restart (needed for reasonable implementations of VM). There was a UNIX box, made by Perkin-Elmer that had two 68000 processors coupled to implement page faulting. When the main processor would fault, the secondary would load the desired page into RAM and restart the primary at the new page. Ugly. That's why Sun used the 68010 early on. You access non-existent memory, get a page-fault trap, your kernel figures out where to put the wanted memory and returns from the trap. Your code never knows that milliseconds have elapsed. -ethan From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat Jun 6 18:43:59 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980605123939.4b1f0464@ricochet.net> At 10:12 AM 6/5/98 +1000, you wrote: >it didn't have more was that I was paying for it, and the cost of 8Mb of >memroy and 200Mb of disk, plus computer was lots. You tend to forget how >much disk space used to cost, I've got the bill somewhere for the 200Mb >Quantum SCSI disk - it was over AUD$2K. Total system cost was about $10K :-( I recently came across an old invoice for a hard drive I had bought. This was mail-order from a wholesaler, in 1993. $287 got me a Maxtor 213MB SCSI drive. Which is a little over $1/MB. Nowadays, Price Club has 5/6GB drives for about a nickel/MB. (Of course, my first ever hard disk was a used ST-225 (and HDC) for $250 -- about $10/MB...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat Jun 6 18:44:03 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Lisa Code Name (was: Apple ][ video) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980605130524.4b1f0c1e@ricochet.net> At 08:30 PM 6/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >one. Here's what Newsbytes had to say about it: Where are you getting the Newsbytes quotes? Seems like it would be a great reference. >name. Apple seemed to be into girl's names at the time. The Apple /// >was developed under the project name "Sara." Who was Lisa named after, >anybody know? From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat Jun 6 18:44:10 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Web pages Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980605131114.4b1f2628@ricochet.net> At 09:02 PM 6/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >The annoying pop-ups come from a little JavaScript. In netscape, you can >disable JavaScript and the pop-ups go away. I generally find that Java >and JavaScript (which, of course, are two completely unrelated languages) >are used to either annoy me or to crash my browser, so I disable them >both. Heck, I generally use Netscape 2.02, so it can't even *handle* Java. And yes, turning off JS does get rid of lots of annoying things. (And turning off autoload images not only speeds things up, but also avoids the constant disk abuse caused by continually reloading GIF animations -- which are much like hitting the gas and the brakes at the same time... gives your tires a good workout but doesn't really get you anywhere.) (As for home pages... I have my "home" page set to , but have it set not to autoload it at start-up -- I know what it says, and I already think I'm great, so I don't need constant reminders. But it is available one click away for them what needs convincing of my amazingness.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From peacock at simconv.com Sat Jun 6 19:14:11 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E90E@NT486> >> I recently came across an old invoice for a hard drive I had bought. This was mail-order from a wholesaler, in 1993. $287 got me a Maxtor 213MB SCSI drive. Which is a little over $1/MB. << How about an original Shugart Technology (now Seagate) ST506 drive, first year they came out? Forget the year now, must have been 1980 or close to it. It ran me $1500 with a case and power supply, no controller, all for a gigantic 5MB and a blinding fast 90msec access time. That would be, oh, about US$300/MB. That much gets you an 18GB disk these days. I used a Konan controller connected to my IMSAI, development for Z80 code and BIOS device drivers for CP/M v3 and MP/M. I still have that drive, though it doesn't read/write so well now, but the head still moves ok. The IMSAI has had many a MFM drive since those days, the Konan (not very good) was replaced by an SDS VersaFloppy III, and it's due for an upgrade to a 3.5" Tandon 20MB in the near future. I plan to mount it on a prototype card inside the chassis and eliminate a cabinet. Maybe even 3.5" floppy if I can find some 720K drives. For all you purists who want to keep machines original, what do you do when the machine in question isn't retired yet, and there are 20 years worth of upgrades installed? I figure that old IMSAI will be running for another 5-10 years yet, cranking out the occasional Z80 program. Jack Peacock From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 19:06:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: HDOS tech info ? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 466 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980607/cafc15c7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 19:15:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E90E@NT486> from "Jack Peacock" at Jun 6, 98 05:14:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1133 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980607/366ab7fe/attachment.ksh From jrice at texoma.net Sat Jun 6 20:53:11 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) References: <3.0.16.19980605123939.4b1f0464@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3579F287.921DB833@texoma.net> My first hard disk was a 10mb Tandy external for $999.00 or $100.00/mb....of course this was in 1985. James BTW, I still have it and it stil works. Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 10:12 AM 6/5/98 +1000, you wrote: > >it didn't have more was that I was paying for it, and the cost of 8Mb of > >memroy and 200Mb of disk, plus computer was lots. You tend to forget how > >much disk space used to cost, I've got the bill somewhere for the 200Mb > >Quantum SCSI disk - it was over AUD$2K. Total system cost was about $10K :-( > > I recently came across an old invoice for a hard drive I had bought. This > was mail-order from a wholesaler, in 1993. $287 got me a Maxtor 213MB SCSI > drive. Which is a little over $1/MB. > > Nowadays, Price Club has 5/6GB drives for about a nickel/MB. > > (Of course, my first ever hard disk was a used ST-225 (and HDC) for $250 -- > about $10/MB...) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 6 21:33:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Interesting VAXen drive problem Message-ID: This is just sort of a FYI message, I've already solved my problem. It started off easy enough, I needed to use one of my Q-Bus VAXen, and was planning on using the big old MV2. Turns out one of it's power supplies is apparently dead :^( Haven't really had time to look into that. No problem says I, I'll just throw one of the disks in my VAXstation II/RC. The disk freaked out and made some really alarming noises. Turns out the RQDX3 is apparently bad. I replaced it, and then it told me the drive was off line. I proceeded to give the system a good checkup, and couldn't find anything wrong, finally I pulled the other HD out of the MV2. It worked just fine. The answer to the problem appears to be that the first HD had been initialized on a Emulex controller which is the primary controller in my MV2, the second one was initialized on a RQDX3 (the secondary controller in the MV2). Both had bootable VMS installs on them, unfortunatly the one I needed was the first, but I've now got that taken care of. Just an interesting and educational problem I thought I'd share. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 6 21:39:12 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <199806070239.AA20961@world.std.com> References: <199806050200.MAA04447@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199806070414.OAA16777@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 11:52 AM 06-06-98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >No reason to sue you, but it probably wouldn't have to be rebooted so >often if it was running Linux. (This Linux Pentium just rebooted for >the first time in two months -- a two hour power failure, and I don't >have power backup that lasts that long -- time to upgrade). Well I have a reasonable choice of systems in my office. Let's see NT/Alpha (the box I sit in front of), Digital Unix/Alpha (x3), Linux/Alpha, NT/Intel, VAX/VMS and SGI Irix. I use the NT/Alpha as my primary "interface" as it runs the programs I consider vital which are (in order of importance?) WinAMP :-), Eudora, tin, Kea!term, Word.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 6 23:22:58 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) References: <3.0.16.19980605123939.4b1f0464@ricochet.net> <3579F287.921DB833@texoma.net> Message-ID: <357A15A2.CA61004B@cnct.com> And the first Tandy 8.4 Mb drives for the Model II in 1981 came to about $500/Mb -- the first one (with controller) was $4495, the next three were each $3500. We sold a boatload, so _some_ folks thought it was a good deal. (The company found out it wasn't -- one of the worst parts contracts the company ever signed, even worse than the ones with Diablo for the Daisy Wheel Printer I or Centronics for the Line Printer I). (Though those printers didn't get the Roman numeral One attached to them until after their respective IIs came out, like my first TRS-80 _wasn't_ a Model One until a year later). James L. Rice wrote: > > My first hard disk was a 10mb Tandy external for $999.00 or > $100.00/mb....of course this was in 1985. > > James > > BTW, I still have it and it stil works. > > Uncle Roger wrote: > > > > At 10:12 AM 6/5/98 +1000, you wrote: > > >it didn't have more was that I was paying for it, and the cost of 8Mb of > > >memroy and 200Mb of disk, plus computer was lots. You tend to forget how > > >much disk space used to cost, I've got the bill somewhere for the 200Mb > > >Quantum SCSI disk - it was over AUD$2K. Total system cost was about $10K :-( > > > > I recently came across an old invoice for a hard drive I had bought. This > > was mail-order from a wholesaler, in 1993. $287 got me a Maxtor 213MB SCSI > > drive. Which is a little over $1/MB. > > > > Nowadays, Price Club has 5/6GB drives for about a nickel/MB. > > > > (Of course, my first ever hard disk was a used ST-225 (and HDC) for $250 -- > > about $10/MB...) > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jruschme at exit109.com Sat Jun 6 23:25:35 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... References: <199806062210.SAA10634@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <357A163F.EA114E20@exit109.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > There > was a UNIX box, made by Perkin-Elmer that had two 68000 processors > coupled to implement page faulting. When the main processor would fault, > the secondary would load the desired page into RAM and restart the > primary at the new page. Ugly. That's why Sun used the 68010 early on. > You access non-existent memory, get a page-fault trap, your kernel > figures out where to put the wanted memory and returns from the trap. > Your code never knows that milliseconds have elapsed. Actually, I believe it was the original Sun 1 which used the double 68000s. Perkin-Elmer did make a 68000 Unix box, the 7350. It actually could run three diffent OS's: Personal IRIX Uniplus System 3 MicroXelos (Uniplus-derived SVR2) Interestingly, the MicroXelos kernel was smart enough to know about the 68010. If you installed one in a 7350, it would use different trap handling code. Tony Eros (you still out there?) has my old one which was upgraded with a 68010. <<>> From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 6 23:32:07 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Lisa Code Name (was: Apple ][ video) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980605130524.4b1f0c1e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > Where are you getting the Newsbytes quotes? Seems like it would be a great > reference. Newsbytes offers a fee-based archive search engine: http://www.newsbytes.com/html_p/search.html They'll give you a 30-day free trial if you give them a credit card number. If you speak German (I don't, but German computerese is close enough to English computerese to figure out), COMPUTERWOCHE offers an archive that goes all the way back to 1974: http://www.computerwoche.de/archiv/index.html -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Sun Jun 7 01:06:39 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: VCF2 Announcement Message-ID: ___________________________________________________________________________ | | | .================================================================. | | // ______ o_ ___________ \\ | | // / \ \ o o o o o o | ____ \ \\ | | H / | | | | | | | | | | \ \ \\ | | H / ____|____|____|____|____|____|____|____|____|____|___ \ \ `=o | | H | | | \ \ | | H | | The Premier Event for Computer Enthusiasts is Back! | \ \__ | | H | | | \ | | | H o | V I N T A G E C O M P U T E R F E S T I V A L |__ \ o | | H | | \ \ | | H \ - VCF2 - | \ `-o | | H | |\ `----o | | H | September 26-27, Santa Clara Convention Center | `-------o | | H / Santa Clara, California | | | H | | | | H | Speakers, Exhibit and Flea Market | | | H | | | | H | O http://www.siconic.com/vcf | | | H |_____________________________________________________| ____o | | H | | | | | | | | | | / | | H | | | | | | | | | |______/ | | H============' | | | | | | | |_________________ | | H / | | \ \ \ |_____________________ | | | H / / | `-o \ \ || | | H o___________/ / \______ \ \ || | | H o \_____|____|___________________ || | | H ____________________________ | | || | | H | | | The S P E A K E R S | || | | `=| Why would YOU come to the | __| |___|| | | _| Vintage Computer Festival? | | | | | | | |____________________________| |-David Rutland | | | | |__________________________________| | | | | ________________________ ___| On the National Bureau of |__ | | | | || || || | / | Standards Western Automatic | | | | .-| To Learn the History |--' | Computer (SWAC). Mr. Rutland | | | | | |__||_||_||______________| | worked under Harry D. Huskey | | | | o ________________________ ___| to create the control unit |____| | | | || || || | / | for this little known but | | | o-| For the Nostalgia |--' | historically significant | | | |__||_||_||______________| | computer. | | | o ________________________ \______| |___o | | | | || || || | | | | | `-| To Hear the Speakers |-._____| FEATURED SPEAKER | o | | |__||_||_||______________| | | / | | ________________________ ____|-Ray Holt |___/ | | | || || || |__/ | | | | .-|To Buy Vintage Computers|-------| Who really invented the |-----o | | | |__||_||_||______________| | first microprocessor? Guess | | | o ________________________ ______| again. The answer will stun |_____ | | | || || || |/ | you. This designer of the | | | | o-|For the Games & Contests|--. | JOLT and developer of the | | | | |__||_||_||______________| \___| classic Synertek SYM-1 sin- | | | | ________________________ __| gle-board computer will re- |_____| | | | || || || | | veal why computer history | | | | o-|To Meet Other Collectors|-o | may need to be re-written. | | | | |__||_||_||______________|___ | | | | | ________________________ \___| |__o | | | | || || || | | * speaker list as of 6/1/98 | | | | o-| To Meet the Pioneers |---. | ____ O | | | | |__||_||_||______________| \ |____________/ \____________| | | | ________________________ \ | | | | || || || | \ | | | .-| For the Prizes! |----. \________________________________o | | | | |__||_||_||______________| \ | | | | \__________________________________ | | | o o________ \ | | | ,=============o \ ______________________________ | | | | // | o__ \ | | | | | | H ___________|________ \ \___| The W O R K S H O P S |___| | | | H | | \ | | | | | H \ Philosophy of the / \ | | | | | H | Vintage Computer |___ \___|-Tom Geller |_____| | | H | Festival... | \ | | | | H / \ \ | Whether you're into game | | | H | The main mission | \_____| consoles, handheld devices, |____o | | H | of the Vintage | | arcade machines or personal | | | H | Computer Festival | | computers, there's a Mac- | | | H | is to promote the |__________| based emulator for you. |____o | | H | preservation of | | | | | H | "obsolete" compu- | | | | | H | ters by offering- | ___| * workshop list as of 6/1/98 |_____ | | H | attendees a chance | / | ____ O | H | | H | to experience the | / |____________/ \____________| H | | H | technologies, peo- | / H | | H | ple and stories | | H | | H | that embody the- | | H | | H | remarkable tale of | | __ ___ __________________ H | | H | the computer revo- | | | |__| | | H | | H | lution. | | | |Someone lucky will|==-----H | | H |____________________| | | | go home with an | H | | H | / | _ | | H | | H o o_/ | (_) | IMSAI 8080 |==--o H | | H _________________________ | | | H | | H o__| VCF2 S P O N S O R S | | | See the VCF web | H | | H | www.haggle.com | | __ | page for details |==--o H | | H____| Dr. Dobb's Journal | |__| |___|__________________| H | | H |_________________________| H | | \\ // | | `=====================================================================' | | | | V2.0 rev 1 http://www.siconic.com/vcf (C) SICONIC 1998 | |___________________________________________________________________________| _ Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From erd at infinet.com Sun Jun 7 02:14:38 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... In-Reply-To: <357A163F.EA114E20@exit109.com> from "John Ruschmeyer" at Jun 7, 98 04:25:35 am Message-ID: <199806070714.DAA15667@user2.infinet.com> > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > There > > was a UNIX box, made by Perkin-Elmer that had two 68000 processors... > Actually, I believe it was the original Sun 1 which used the double > 68000s. Really... The old P-E did, too, IRRC. > Perkin-Elmer did make a 68000 Unix box, the 7350. It actually could run > three diffent OS's: > > Personal IRIX > Uniplus System 3 > MicroXelos (Uniplus-derived SVR2) > > Interestingly, the MicroXelos kernel was smart enough to know about the > 68010. If you installed one in a 7350, it would use different trap > handling code. Cool. I have a 7350 (with the touch buttons on the bottom edge of the monitor) running Uniplus SIII. I have original docs and install media, too. A former employer used it for C-> 68K ASM conversion for a never- released WAN router (c. 1984) I have the original WAN router OS and the (small) pile of prototype 68K-based router boxes (68K, 68451, with 4 proprietary slots with either 4 DMA-SIO or 8 PIO-SIO, for the non- TLA-impared). If they had ever _released_ a product, it might have amounted to something. We used the Z8530 SIO, one of the coolest UARTs ever made (as seen on the Mac and Sun). We used to ship a 68K-based intellegent SIO card for VAXen that spoke HASP, 3780 and SNA, for $25000! Those were the days. -ethan From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Jun 7 06:58:41 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <199806062056.NAA25751@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > Does anybody know anything about these "thrid-party Macintoshes?" I'm > familiar with the Outbound computers, I have never even heard of any > other early Mac clones. Any info? How about Atari STs and Amigas running Macintosh emulators? :) :) :) > Thanks, > Tom Owad Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From Mzthompson at aol.com Sun Jun 7 07:46:10 1998 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: FWD: PDP-11's being retired Message-ID: <58bd3179.357a8b93@aol.com> Found this on comp.sys.dec, please respond directly to him. Mike ============================ Subject: PDP-11's being retired From: "Dave" Date: Sat, Jun 6, 1998 14:51 EDT Message-id: <01bd917c$6e480db0$0a0a0a80@mass> We're (finally!) retiring 2 PDP-11/04's, a PDP-11/23 and 2 PDP-11/73 clones (SMS). Anyone have any use for them? The damn things won't die! They're going in the scrap bin if I don't get a response in a week. Send me some mail or give me a call. Dave Duperon (425) 356-5569 (days) (425) 338-7198 (eves) From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jun 7 08:15:29 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: PDP11/34 Being Retired and Scrapped Message-ID: <357A9271.36D80FA5@texoma.net> A plant at which I work is retiring a PDP11/34 and two Industrial I/O racks later this month. This machine has at least two sets of spare boards and even a spare hard drive as well as a complete set of manuals. It has been under a DEC service contract and has been running 24/7 for the last 20 years. After I transfer control of the furnaces to AB PLC's later this month, the DEC has been promised to a scrap yard in the Dallas area. If I can pry it away from the scrapper grasp, would anyone want it. I'm not into mini's so I don't want it, but I hate to see it get recycled for the metal. Also, I know where a HP 3000 can be picked up for probably under a $100. It has a hard drive, at least a med of ram, a 9 track tape drive (requires 3ph 208v), 10-12 HP2392 (as I recall) terminals, all of the cables, boards, expanders, a modem and was running when removed. If anyone is intrested, let me know and I'll pass your email adress to this guy. James From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jun 7 08:42:07 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <19980607134207.6880.qmail@hotmail.com> Do you ever actually use this IMSAI for things like word processing which could be done on another computer? Do you use Wintel, or is this your main computer, like Tony has his AT? >This >was mail-order from a wholesaler, in 1993. $287 got me a Maxtor 213MB >SCSI >drive. Which is a little over $1/MB. << > >How about an original Shugart Technology (now Seagate) ST506 drive, >first year they came out? Forget the year now, must have been 1980 or >close to it. It ran me $1500 with a case and power supply, no >controller, all for a gigantic 5MB and a blinding fast 90msec access >time. That would be, oh, about US$300/MB. That much gets you an 18GB >disk these days. I used a Konan controller connected to my IMSAI, >development for Z80 code and BIOS device drivers for CP/M v3 and MP/M. > >I still have that drive, though it doesn't read/write so well now, but >the head still moves ok. The IMSAI has had many a MFM drive since those >days, the Konan (not very good) was replaced by an SDS VersaFloppy III, >and it's due for an upgrade to a 3.5" Tandon 20MB in the near future. I >plan to mount it on a prototype card inside the chassis and eliminate a >cabinet. Maybe even 3.5" floppy if I can find some 720K drives. > >For all you purists who want to keep machines original, what do you do >when the machine in question isn't retired yet, and there are 20 years >worth of upgrades installed? I figure that old IMSAI will be running >for another 5-10 years yet, cranking out the occasional Z80 program. > Jack Peacock > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From icyblackhand at hotmail.com Sun Jun 7 08:57:17 1998 From: icyblackhand at hotmail.com (Michael Sheflin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: PDP11/34 Being Retired and Scrapped Message-ID: <19980607135717.27556.qmail@hotmail.com> I'd like it. Please contact Mike From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jun 7 09:43:27 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: PDP11/34 Being Retired and Scrapped References: <19980607135717.27556.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <357AA70F.55ECCBF8@texoma.net> Which one? Michael Sheflin wrote: > > I'd like it. > Please contact > Mike > > >From classiccmp-owner@u.washington.edu Sun Jun 7 06:13:55 1998 > >Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) > > by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with > SMTP > > id GAA16822; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 06:13:28 -0700 > >Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu > [140.142.33.8]) > > by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with > ESMTP > > id GAA86618 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 > 06:12:27 -0700 > >Received: from mail.texoma.net (root@mail.texoma.net [209.151.96.3]) > > by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with > ESMTP > > id GAA22527 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 > 06:12:26 -0700 > >Received: from texoma.net (ppp-151-104-005.texoma.net [209.151.104.5]) > > by mail.texoma.net (8.8.5/CNET_TOP_500) with ESMTP > > id IAA15313 for ; Sun, 7 Jun > 1998 08:12:24 -0500 (CDT) > >Message-Id: <357A9271.36D80FA5@texoma.net> > >Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 08:15:29 -0500 > >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > >Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > >Precedence: bulk > >From: "James L. Rice" > >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > >Subject: PDP11/34 Being Retired and Scrapped > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >X-To: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu" > >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > > > >A plant at which I work is retiring a PDP11/34 and two Industrial I/O > >racks later this month. This machine has at least two sets of spare > >boards and even a spare hard drive as well as a complete set of > >manuals. It has been under a DEC service contract and has been running > >24/7 for the last 20 years. After I transfer control of the furnaces > to > >AB PLC's later this month, the DEC has been promised to a scrap yard in > >the Dallas area. If I can pry it away from the scrapper grasp, would > >anyone want it. I'm not into mini's so I don't want it, but I hate to > >see it get recycled for the metal. > > > >Also, I know where a HP 3000 can be picked up for probably under a > >$100. It has a hard drive, at least a med of ram, a 9 track tape drive > >(requires 3ph 208v), 10-12 HP2392 (as I recall) terminals, all of the > >cables, boards, expanders, a modem and was running when removed. If > >anyone is intrested, let me know and I'll pass your email adress to > this > >guy. > > > >James > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 7 10:04:50 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <199806071504.AA27111@world.std.com> How about locations? (city, state) thanks. -----Original Message----- From: James L. Rice [SMTP:jrice@texoma.net] Sent: Sunday, June 07, 1998 9:15 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: PDP11/34 Being Retired and Scrapped A plant at which I work is retiring a PDP11/34 and two Industrial I/O racks later this month. This machine has at least two sets of spare boards and even a spare hard drive as well as a complete set of manuals. It has been under a DEC service contract and has been running 24/7 for the last 20 years. After I transfer control of the furnaces to AB PLC's later this month, the DEC has been promised to a scrap yard in the Dallas area. If I can pry it away from the scrapper grasp, would anyone want it. I'm not into mini's so I don't want it, but I hate to see it get recycled for the metal. Also, I know where a HP 3000 can be picked up for probably under a $100. It has a hard drive, at least a med of ram, a 9 track tape drive (requires 3ph 208v), 10-12 HP2392 (as I recall) terminals, all of the cables, boards, expanders, a modem and was running when removed. If anyone is intrested, let me know and I'll pass your email adress to this guy. James From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 7 10:58:33 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <199806062056.NAA25751@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >I'm reading _Build Your Own Macintosh and Save a Bundle_ and it has an >interesting reference to early Mac clones. The book states: I think that's the same book I've got a copy of around here. Interesting reading, but I've basically never seen any of that stuff anywhere. Though I found it really interesting, has anyone ever seen a Mac Plus or simular system recased into a PC case? It would be a fun project, but I've got to many other projects :^) The closest I've got to a Mac clone (I'm writting this on a PowerMac 8500/180) is a Amiga 3000 with emulation software. The Amiga is actually about as fast as the real thing. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 7 10:57:50 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Back with new finds Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980607105750.006cd108@pop3.concentric.net> Been on vacation and the road for the last 17 days and just got finished reading all the e-mail. Seems to have been some nice finds by some in the group. I will not try and list all the items I purchased just the nicer items. I did go to a auction at the U of Houston and must have ran into the same guys everyone else has they cost me over $900 to get a few items that I wanted (by running the bids up). I got about 50 Mac's and over 100 mac kb's to trade or sale cheap. Now on with the list: - Sun 3/50 model 247 not tested yet - Compaq Portable III not tested yet - ADDS Envoy luggable with built-in acoustic modem and network connector - 6 new copies of Symantec Thinks Ligthspeed Pascal for Mac's - HP Integral PC model 207 with software, built-in printer, 256k memory module in rear, HP ROM Module HP-UX/RO operating system Rel 5.0, HP-UX Technical Basic Rel 5.0. The baby fires right up and works great. - PE Nelson model 1020TA - HeathKit H11A digital computer LS11 - Tektronix 4211 Instrument - Orchid Technology ProDesign II card - Sun shoebox model 511 And the list goes on all together I picked up several hundred on this trip, will write more later. Keep Computing John From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jun 7 11:29:02 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: PDP11/34 Being Retired and Scrapped References: <01BD920B.3FF10EA0@hardhead.virtualadmin.com> Message-ID: <357ABFCE.7905DB85@texoma.net> It's located in Sherman Texas, approximately 60 miles north of Dallas. Both the guy with the HP and the DEC that is being removed from service. Joel Fedorko wrote: > > How about locations? (city, state) thanks. > > -----Original Message----- > From: James L. Rice [SMTP:jrice@texoma.net] > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 1998 9:15 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: PDP11/34 Being Retired and Scrapped > > A plant at which I work is retiring a PDP11/34 and two Industrial I/O > racks later this month. This machine has at least two sets of spare > boards and even a spare hard drive as well as a complete set of > manuals. It has been under a DEC service contract and has been running > 24/7 for the last 20 years. After I transfer control of the furnaces to > AB PLC's later this month, the DEC has been promised to a scrap yard in > the Dallas area. If I can pry it away from the scrapper grasp, would > anyone want it. I'm not into mini's so I don't want it, but I hate to > see it get recycled for the metal. > > Also, I know where a HP 3000 can be picked up for probably under a > $100. It has a hard drive, at least a med of ram, a 9 track tape drive > (requires 3ph 208v), 10-12 HP2392 (as I recall) terminals, all of the > cables, boards, expanders, a modem and was running when removed. If > anyone is intrested, let me know and I'll pass your email adress to this > guy. > > James From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sun Jun 7 11:27:15 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... In-Reply-To: <199806070714.DAA15667@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 7, 98 03:14:38 am Message-ID: <199806071627.MAA10747@shell.monmouth.com> > > > > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > There > > > was a UNIX box, made by Perkin-Elmer that had two 68000 processors... > > > Actually, I believe it was the original Sun 1 which used the double > > 68000s. > > Really... The old P-E did, too, IRRC. Nope -- the Perkin-Elmer was one 68000 with a 68010 possible as an unsupported upgrade. (The MicroXelos recognized it -- I don't know if UniPlus did). The Masscomp box (Mascomp 500) was the dual CPU box. Masscomp was swallowed by Concurrent with was the Perkin-Elmer computer division spun off from Perkin-Elmer in about '85 or so. Bill From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 7 12:46:25 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones References: Message-ID: <357AD1F1.CF3CE678@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I think that's the same book I've got a copy of around here. Interesting > reading, but I've basically never seen any of that stuff anywhere. Though > I found it really interesting, has anyone ever seen a Mac Plus or simular > system recased into a PC case? It would be a fun project, but I've got to > many other projects :^) > > The closest I've got to a Mac clone (I'm writting this on a PowerMac > 8500/180) is a Amiga 3000 with emulation software. The Amiga is actually > about as fast as the real thing. I had a coworker in the late 80s who had his Mac and his Amiga 2000 recased and rack-mounted, sharing a rack with a lot of _serious_ video editing gear. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From afritz at iname.com Sun Jun 7 13:02:06 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: list dead? Message-ID: Is this list dead or did I somehow get unsubscribed? af ---------- Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com http://www.afritz.base.org ---------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 7 10:40:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:23 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 7, 98 07:58:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980607/62eda228/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 7 10:48:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) In-Reply-To: <199806071504.AA27111@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 7, 98 11:04:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1630 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980607/231fdca2/attachment.ksh From tomowad at earthlink.net Sun Jun 7 14:13:21 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <199806071913.MAA18453@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >I think that's the same book I've got a copy of around here. Interesting >reading, but I've basically never seen any of that stuff anywhere. Though >I found it really interesting, has anyone ever seen a Mac Plus or simular >system recased into a PC case? It would be a fun project, but I've got to >many other projects :^) > >The closest I've got to a Mac clone (I'm writting this on a PowerMac >8500/180) is a Amiga 3000 with emulation software. The Amiga is actually >about as fast as the real thing. What edition do you have? My 2nd edition book says a listing of clones is given in edition 1, as oppose to just saying they exist. I'd love to get a list of old Mac clones. Thanks, Tom From tomowad at earthlink.net Sun Jun 7 14:13:23 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <199806071913.MAA18487@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >I think that's the same book I've got a copy of around here. Interesting >reading, but I've basically never seen any of that stuff anywhere. Though >I found it really interesting, has anyone ever seen a Mac Plus or simular >system recased into a PC case? It would be a fun project, but I've got to >many other projects :^) > >The closest I've got to a Mac clone (I'm writting this on a PowerMac >8500/180) is a Amiga 3000 with emulation software. The Amiga is actually >about as fast as the real thing. What edition do you have? My 2nd edition book says a listing of clones is given in edition 1, as oppose to just saying they exist. I'd love to get a list of old Mac clones. >Just to ask... do you have the ISBN for that? I'm interested... ;-) The book is: _Build Your Own Macintosh and Save a Bundle_ by Bob Brant, Windcrest/McGraw-Hill. ISBN# 0-8306-3974-8. List price $19.95. It's a great book. Tom Owad From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jun 7 15:17:57 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <19980607201758.9474.qmail@hotmail.com> I understand, but many people would much rather do word processing on a more conventional machine, simply in the interest of productivity (I doubt anyone wants to go through a routine of converting files back and forth. I strongly doubt TeX would run on a regular IMSAI with reasonable speed). > > >Well, your can do tons of serious work with one. > >IT runs several OSs (CPM being well known) >Code and application development (asm, basic, Pascal, Cobol, fortran....) >word processing >Graphics work (with the appropriate board) >Accounting >spread sheets (multiplan) >Games, deadline, Zaxxon, Adventure, chess...long list. > >In a word most anything you might imagine. > >My s100 NS* system is one example that is still doing many of those >things. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jun 7 15:20:58 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <19980607202058.8371.qmail@hotmail.com> These are certainly available for the PC. Check out www.emulators.com >> >> > Does anybody know anything about these "thrid-party Macintoshes?" I'm >> > familiar with the Outbound computers, I have never even heard of any >> > other early Mac clones. Any info? >> >> How about Atari STs and Amigas running Macintosh emulators? :) :) :) > >Wasn't there a thing called a 'Magic Sack' or something that was a cartridge >for the ST which you put the ROMs from a Mac into. One version had a Mac >disk controller (IWM) chip in it as well, I think. > >Problem was, it needed genuine Apple Mac ROMs. The only way to get those, >at least at first, was to strip them out of a Mac. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 7 16:03:42 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: PDP11/34 Being Retired and Scrapped In-Reply-To: <357A9271.36D80FA5@texoma.net> Message-ID: The REAL sad thing is, James, I would have done the PLC program for the 11/34 and shipping... And what do you mean by 'promised to a scrap yard', what did he do for the company as his end of the bargain??? 8-) On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, James L. Rice wrote: > A plant at which I work is retiring a PDP11/34 and two Industrial I/O > racks later this month. This machine has at least two sets of spare > boards and even a spare hard drive as well as a complete set of > manuals. It has been under a DEC service contract and has been running > 24/7 for the last 20 years. After I transfer control of the furnaces to > AB PLC's later this month, the DEC has been promised to a scrap yard in > the Dallas area. If I can pry it away from the scrapper grasp, would > anyone want it. I'm not into mini's so I don't want it, but I hate to > see it get recycled for the metal. BC From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 7 16:28:54 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <199806072128.AA25588@world.std.com> <(I doubt anyone wants to go through a routine of converting files from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 7, 98 05:28:54 pm Message-ID: <199806072134.OAA01382@saul1.u.washington.edu> [TeX on CP/M] > Not so. Runs fairly well on similar machines. DRI evern did a version > of tex for CP/M. Have the manual and software. Are you sure the program is the same? I had heard that the name was the same but the software was actually completely different. Does the manual give credit to Donald Knuth? Does it descirbe the algorithms that DRI used? what output format does the program generate? -- Derek From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Jun 7 16:36:02 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: FREE Printwheels! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980607143602.00e553a0@mail.jps.net> I've got a pair of printwheels for the Xerox MemoryWriter 60 series available. I'm also given to understand that these will fit Diablo 630 series machines as well. I've got Courier 10 and Courier 12. First person to send me a self-addressed stamped mailer gets them! E-mail me for my address. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 7 18:21:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) In-Reply-To: <199806072128.AA25588@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 7, 98 05:28:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 661 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/592d02ba/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jun 7 19:40:55 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <19980608004055.12937.qmail@hotmail.com> Right, but consider the other stuff. You need postscript, preferrably a program for previewing the dvi file before printing, etc. I think my pentium is faster ;) But that wasn't my original question. Does anyone on this list actually use a REALLY old unusual machine like IMSAI, CoCo, C64, Apple ][, etc. as their major word processing system (unusual compared to Tony's AT)? >Not so. Runs fairly well on similar machines. DRI evern did a version >of tex for CP/M. Have the manual and software. > >Personally I used runoff a lot, it was quite fast. > >Allison > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 7 19:52:04 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <199806080052.AA28627@world.std.com> < <> Not so. Runs fairly well on similar machines. DRI evern did a versio <> of tex for CP/M. Have the manual and software. < from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 7, 98 08:52:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/80277260/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 7 20:01:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: CP/M software (was: Former Disk Costs) In-Reply-To: <199806080051.AA28559@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 7, 98 08:51:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1040 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/4de3dde7/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 7 20:52:55 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <199806071913.MAA18453@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >What edition do you have? My 2nd edition book says a listing of clones >is given in edition 1, as oppose to just saying they exist. I'd love to >get a list of old Mac clones. 1st Ed, 4th printing, copyright 1991 (I wouldn't have thought it would rate a 2nd Ed.) Here are the applicable parts from the looks of things. Powder Blue Computers and Akkord Technologies each used Mac 128k ROMs --------------- pg 39 -------------------- "Powder Blue's BlueMAQ II and IIx clones use the Mac Plus logic board for I/O port control and add a second logic board that allows them to achieve up to 5x the performance of a Mac IIx. The company offers four models ranging in price from $4799 to $7999. The base model BlueMAQ II includes a 16Mhz 68020, 1Mb RAM, 800k floppy, and a 85Mb HD. All models come with built-in monochrome video and a monitor. I have not heard much from them lately. Akkord's Jonathan uses a 68000 housed in a case about the size and shape of an external HD. It is sold only through European OEMs at a price 30% below European prices for a Mac Plus and includes a 14" Phillips B&W monitor, built-in AppleTalk connector, and external and internal SCSI ports. The company says it plans to enter the U.S. market initially with a $3000 kit with which purchasers can construct a 12 pound Mac portable by adding a logic board and the 128k ROMs. This system will be in stores as soon as it receives FCC certification. A future version of the system will use mac compatible ROMs that Akkord plans to develop itself. Unfortunately, Apple staged a sting of their operations and found illegally copied ROMs in their products.(6) I would say they face an uphill battle. (6)Carolyn Said, "Apple complaint prompts police raid on clone builders," MacWEEK, 4/3/90, p. 67." -------------------- He also mentions portables on pg's 37 & 38. Atari, Colby Systems, Dynamic Computer Products, and Outbound Systems, Inc. (formally Wallaby Systems) Colby: WalkMac SE -- $3999 WalkMac SE 30 -- $6699 Dynamic: (around for a few years) Dynamac Plus $4995 Dynamac SE 30 - $79954 Outbound: "Initailly touted as an add-on product ot the Plus and SE using it's ROMs. At press time they announced their own ROM kit, approved by Apple legal" (4) Raines Cohn, "Outbound: Have ROM will travel," MacWEEK, 1/16/90, p. 1 (4) Raines Cohn, "Outbound ROM set will make laptop's host into server," MacWEEK, 4/3/90, p. 6 ------------------ The bit on Outbound shocked me, it seems they were actually working with Apple. The Author was very impressed with the Atari Stacy laptop $1495, and seemed to consider it with the "Spectre GCR" emulator a good solution. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From SpamDelendaEst at my-dejanews.com Sun Jun 7 21:21:39 1998 From: SpamDelendaEst at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: FW: Q-Bus Cards available Message-ID: <357b4a63.851179371@smtp.wa.jps.net> Fellow's looking to get rid of some Q-bus cards. Despite his listed prices (I'd wager he'll let them go for a heck of a lot less), it looks like he's just going to trash the stuff if they're not bought. If interested, contact him directly. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- From: cfchiesa@cyber1.servtech.com (christopher f. chiesa) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec Subject: Q-bus Cards FS Date: 7 Jun 1998 19:24:01 -0400 Organization: ServiceTech, Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: <6lf7eh$4nk@cyber1.servtech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cyber1.servtech.com Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!uunet!in4.uu.net!nntp.abs.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!post.servtech.com!cyber1.servtech.com!not-for-mail Xref: blushng.jps.net comp.os.vms:3070 comp.sys.dec:1075 Hello, all... Apologies in advance if any of the following is inappropriate in either content or presentation; if it is, feel free to TELL me, but please use e-mail and please be gentle! After cannibalizing a disused MicroVAX III, I'm left with several "ex- cess" Q-bus cards (see list below) and thought I'd see if anyone here would like to buy any of 'em. If not, out to the curb they go, a week from this Wednesday or maybe sooner. As a VERY GENERAL guideline of what these cards "are worth," my list shows prices I found on a "DEC reseller" Website, which prices I assume to be relatively "current." However, because these cards are used, and because I don't really know their condition (operating/not), A) I don't expect to receive these prices and will entertain "any reasonable offer," and B) if you buy an item, send me your money (plus shipping, unless you can pick it up in person in the Rochester, NY area), then within 30 days of my shipping the item you determine that it DOESN'T WORK, simply return it to me for a full refund of your purchase price (shipping is NON-refundable). Having said that, here's the list: Card-Edge Model "DEC reseller website" ID Number Description Price ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- M3106 DZQ11 4-line, double-buffered, async EIA $219 (serial port) mux, w/modem control M7546 TQK50 TMSCP controller for TK50 tape unit $258 M7651 DRV11-WA 18/22-bit DMA general-purpose interface $507 N/A QT13 or QT14 (Emulex) tape-drive controller (this N/A unit was used with CDC 9-track drive) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (FWIW, I also have the above-mentioned 9-track drive, but it's far too bulky for me to even TRY to SHIP unless YOU REALLY MAKE IT WORTH MY WHILE. If I don't get a convincing offer, or an in-person pickup scheduled, by 8AM this coming Wednesday (6/10), this drive ALSO goes out to the curb!) Again, apologies if this is off base in any way. Hope to hear from interested parties soon! Chris Chiesa cfchiesa@servtech.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Sun Jun 7 21:24:43 1998 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Jacqard 500 computers rescued...ugh! Message-ID: well I rescued 3 J500 computers and a 20meg removable drive unit. I understand why people collect stamps now.....they take a damn sight less room. Can any one tell me a bit about the units (I did get the manuals...but they are now in storage) Opening one case quickly did not reveal a processor...were they a bit slice job ? Any how I will investigate more later. BTW the drive unit measures about 3"x2"x2" and weighs a hell of a lot...hence the ugh and another step down the road to a massive hernia. Had to pass on the diablo printers for this lot at this stage (shame on me!...but storage is at a premium) so now my collection consists of 3 TRS80 model 1 2 TRS80 model 3 2 TRS80 model 4P 3 Systems 80 (same as the genie) 2 Sinclair QL 1 Amiga 600HD 1 Amiga 1200 1 Altos system (drives,tape units,processor,etc,etc,etc) 1 Nascom (with german DOS, hard sectored drive) 1 Kaypro 4 1 Kaypro 10 1 TI 99/4 12 Polycorp Poly computers (designed and made in New Zealand) 1 Polycorp server unit (z80 and 6809 with 2 8" drives and serial network) 3 Jacqaurd J500 1 Apple 2e 1 Cromenco 1 Amstrad 8256 1 Amstrad 6128 1 MSX and various Misc machines I can't remember at the moment. Oh I have a hell of a lot of manuals and books on the various beasts as well, however I have NO parking left in my shed which required a lot a cleaning to fit the J500s in. I also have a collection of large numbers of floppy drives, monitors,accessories (like atari IR joystick controllers, cromenco joystick,etc). Happy collecting k.j.whitehead@massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundamental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301 From nerdware at laidbak.com Sun Jun 7 22:47:25 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (nerdware@laidbak.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <357AD1F1.CF3CE678@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199806080344.WAA04658@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 13:46:25 -0400 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Early Mac Clones > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > I think that's the same book I've got a copy of around here. Interesting > > reading, but I've basically never seen any of that stuff anywhere. Though > > I found it really interesting, has anyone ever seen a Mac Plus or simular > > system recased into a PC case? It would be a fun project, but I've got to > > many other projects :^) > > > > The closest I've got to a Mac clone (I'm writting this on a PowerMac > > 8500/180) is a Amiga 3000 with emulation software. The Amiga is actually > > about as fast as the real thing. > > I had a coworker in the late 80s who had his Mac and his Amiga 2000 > recased and rack-mounted, sharing a rack with a lot of _serious_ > video editing gear. > -- IIRC, NewTek (makers of the Video Toaster) decided that since they were having some trouble getting the Toaster accepted in the mainstream because most people thought the Amiga was only a toy, they created an interface card for a Mac that would allow the Mac user to run the Toaster-equipped A2000 (private-labeled for NewTek) from his Mac, thereby making it 'legit'. I had to laugh at the thought of paying a grand or more just to see the Amiga Workbench come up on a Mac screen instead of the "toy" Amiga screen. Of course, this 'toy' made multimedia possible before Uncle Bill said it was ok to use it.....too many people forget that. Not you guys, though. (I hope.) One of my other favorite Amiga stories was something I swear I read in AmigaWorld or Byte -- right after the A1000 came out, Gates had a press conference to talk about Windows. Some reporter asked him about multitasking, and Gates replied that multitasking really wasn't possible in anything under 8 megs of ram. To which the same reporter replied, "But doesn't your own Amiga Basic multitask nicely on a 512k Amiga?" A question which Gates promptly ignored and moved on......... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From desieh at southcom.com.au Sun Jun 7 22:53:46 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <00ed01bd9291$0a51fb20$e5173ccb@mr-ibm> Mac XTs where the first as far as I know Mac clones............. bascailly a Mac in a IBM 5150 case......... Desie -----Original Message----- From: nerdware@laidbak.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, June 08, 1998 1:47 Subject: Re: Early Mac Clones Date sent: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 13:46:25 -0400 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Early Mac Clones > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > I think that's the same book I've got a copy of around here. Interesting > > reading, but I've basically never seen any of that stuff anywhere. Though > > I found it really interesting, has anyone ever seen a Mac Plus or simular > > system recased into a PC case? It would be a fun project, but I've got to > > many other projects :^) > > > > The closest I've got to a Mac clone (I'm writting this on a PowerMac > > 8500/180) is a Amiga 3000 with emulation software. The Amiga is actually > > about as fast as the real thing. > > I had a coworker in the late 80s who had his Mac and his Amiga 2000 > recased and rack-mounted, sharing a rack with a lot of _serious_ > video editing gear. > -- IIRC, NewTek (makers of the Video Toaster) decided that since they were having some trouble getting the Toaster accepted in the mainstream because most people thought the Amiga was only a toy, they created an interface card for a Mac that would allow the Mac user to run the Toaster-equipped A2000 (private-labeled for NewTek) from his Mac, thereby making it 'legit'. I had to laugh at the thought of paying a grand or more just to see the Amiga Workbench come up on a Mac screen instead of the "toy" Amiga screen. Of course, this 'toy' made multimedia possible before Uncle Bill said it was ok to use it.....too many people forget that. Not you guys, though. (I hope.) One of my other favorite Amiga stories was something I swear I read in AmigaWorld or Byte -- right after the A1000 came out, Gates had a press conference to talk about Windows. Some reporter asked him about multitasking, and Gates replied that multitasking really wasn't possible in anything under 8 megs of ram. To which the same reporter replied, "But doesn't your own Amiga Basic multitask nicely on a 512k Amiga?" A question which Gates promptly ignored and moved on......... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 7 23:39:32 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones References: <00ed01bd9291$0a51fb20$e5173ccb@mr-ibm> Message-ID: <357B6B04.BEA36D6@cnct.com> Desie Hay wrote: > One of my other favorite Amiga stories was something I swear I read in > AmigaWorld or Byte -- right after the A1000 came out, Gates had a press > conference to talk about Windows. Some reporter asked him about > multitasking, and Gates replied that multitasking really wasn't possible in > anything under 8 megs of ram. To which the same reporter replied, "But > doesn't > your own Amiga Basic multitask nicely on a 512k Amiga?" > > A question which Gates promptly ignored and moved on......... Especially since the TRS-80 Model 16, with the Xenix OS partly done by Microsoft, multitasked (and multiusered) quite nicely even with only 256K of RAM. Not to mention the Color Computer running OS-9 in 64K. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 8 00:33:16 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Packing RL02's Message-ID: Bit of a different note here. I've got someone that is interested in shipping me some RL02 packs for my systems, but is concerned about packing. Does anyone have any advice on the subject. From poesie at geocities.com Mon Jun 8 00:40:45 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: old Amiga systems w/ vid capture?? feature and separate hdd..... Message-ID: <357B795D.7BB6@geocities.com> forgive my lack of knowledge on these, have only heard of them from my brother who goes to an art school. they are ditching a roomful of amigas w/ external hdd's at the end of the year, which have some pretty extensive video editing hardware as well? i will try to find out more, including what they actually ARE, but if anyone is interested please let me know. i will see what i can do! -Eric From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 5 22:39:03 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Atari hard drives? References: Message-ID: <3578B9D7.A2C6B84B@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > >Everyone on this list predates the PC, except for maybe that Seagraves > > > >punk. > > > > > > And Tim Hotze, Max Eskin.... anybody else? > > > > Don't forget me! I'm from 1982, so does that make me IBM compatible? > > 32-bit isn't all that great, especially considering Win'95... ;-) > > > > You're all making me feel old... I date from the time of the HP9100 (1967), > so I guess I should be stack-based... Hang on... I am :-) > > A silly suggestion. Computer-astrology. Your way of thinking is > determined by the computers that were in production at the time of your > birth. No, I don't believe it either :-) Especially as the few computers in production at the time I was born were mostly Univac I units, there were others gearing up for production but in mid '55, calling any other computer "in production" can be argued. (Of course, from a modern _mass_-production point of view, it could be argued that no computer _requiring_ individual expert installation is a "production" computer -- in which case the TRS-80, the Apple II and the original Pet are the first "production" computers, although the Apple II only makes it by a nose). I am not a member of this latter school, BTW. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 5 23:19:09 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Uncle Sam wants... References: <01IXTZO9E41UASFPL7@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <3578C33D.DD686CA8@cnct.com> Roger Ivie wrote: > > >>From the yk2 Newsletter : > > > >"The federal government is in dire need of technical resources to fix the > >Year 2000 problem-so dire, in fact, that there is speculation about a > >possible draft of Cobol programmers." > > What, we don't have time to fix the Y2K problem but we _do_ have time to > build a whole new bureaucracy to mobilize the nation? Of course, the new > draft agency would have to be Y2K compliant so they can track down and > punish draft dodgers... > > I guess it wouldn't do any good to skip off to Canada because _they'd_ > probably draft you, too. Best bet would be to skip to Israel, Saudi Arabia, Morocco or some other place that isn't crippled by the AD system. Me, I'm for Wyoming and hide my computers in the basement so the peasants with torches and pitchforks don't get some idea that I'm the one who screwed up their government checks. But I can't desert New Jersey until my father-in-law craps out, and since he's not even 80 yet, that could be a while, a long while, like after whatever the Y2K thing does is ancient history -- my wife's family tends to outlive redwoods. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 8 02:38:17 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <199806071913.MAA18487@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > What edition do you have? My 2nd edition book says a listing of clones > is given in edition 1, as oppose to just saying they exist. I'd love to > get a list of old Mac clones. I made a timely find today of the first edition of _Build Your Own Macintosh and Save a Bundle_. In Chapter 2 it has a price comparison between the clone "Cat" Mac and the real Mac. The computers it lists are: Cat Mac SE Cat Mac SE 30 Cat Mac II Cat Mac IIfx Cat Mac IIcx Cat Mac IIci It will indeed be interesting if I ever find one of these homebrew clones (For the curious, the book basically tells you to buy Mac motherboards and parts from third-party suppliers and stick them in a PC case. That's it.) They would be hard to spot since I don't even give a first look to PC clone boxes. There's not really anything special about them anyway, other than the fact that it is novel. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 8 02:40:29 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 running Xenix? Message-ID: What was the consensus we came up with regarding Xenix running on a Lisa? Whatever it was, I saw a Lisa 2 today running Xenix (well, I didn't actually see it run, but the owner said he had Xenix running on it). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From desieh at southcom.com.au Mon Jun 8 02:42:10 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <003501bd92b0$f25b21c0$c5173ccb@mr-ibm> bit hard getting a mac into a pc case though, remember that macs have all the connectors on board, desie -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, June 08, 1998 5:41 Subject: Re: Early Mac Clones >On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > >> What edition do you have? My 2nd edition book says a listing of clones >> is given in edition 1, as oppose to just saying they exist. I'd love to >> get a list of old Mac clones. > >I made a timely find today of the first edition of _Build Your Own >Macintosh and Save a Bundle_. In Chapter 2 it has a price comparison >between the clone "Cat" Mac and the real Mac. The computers it lists are: > >Cat Mac SE >Cat Mac SE 30 >Cat Mac II >Cat Mac IIfx >Cat Mac IIcx >Cat Mac IIci > >It will indeed be interesting if I ever find one of these homebrew clones >(For the curious, the book basically tells you to buy Mac motherboards and >parts from third-party suppliers and stick them in a PC case. That's it.) >They would be hard to spot since I don't even give a first look to PC >clone boxes. There's not really anything special about them anyway, other >than the fact that it is novel. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 05/30/98] > From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon Jun 8 05:32:02 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: old Amiga systems w/ vid capture?? feature and separate hdd..... In-Reply-To: <357B795D.7BB6@geocities.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980608063202.0068b0dc@mail.wincom.net> At 12:40 AM 6/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >forgive my lack of knowledge on these, have only heard of them from my >brother who goes to an art school. they are ditching a roomful of amigas >w/ external hdd's at the end of the year, which have some pretty >extensive video editing hardware as well? i will try to find out more, >including what they actually ARE, but if anyone is interested please let >me know. i will see what i can do! > >-Eric > > Amigas, particularly if they include Video Toaster boards, are always much in demand by low budget video producers. If you don't stir up any interest in classiccmp try putting a message in REC VIDEO and REC VIDEO PRODUCTION. I don't know how the prices are in the States, but in Canada a good used Amiga 2000 with a Toaster will bring anywhere from $ 1000.00 to $ 2000.00. Cheers Charlie Fox From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Jun 8 05:39:35 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... Message-ID: >> The MC68010 is the heart of my favorite computer ever, the AT&T Unix PC >> (built by Convergent Technologies). I've got three, two work fine, one >> is for parts. _Still_ the prettiest machines in my collection. Do you mean the NCR Tower series? Or was this some other offering by AT&T? I seem to remember that the old Tower 400's had 68010's - I've still got a few boards somewhere for one (system board was about 1 metre long and half a metre high!). I've got a complete Tower 700 with a 68030 as main CPU, and performance still rates really highly even these days...) Jules From icyblackhand at hotmail.com Mon Jun 8 06:15:33 1998 From: icyblackhand at hotmail.com (Michael Sheflin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: old Amiga systems w/ vid capture?? feature and separate hdd..... Message-ID: <19980608111533.18382.qmail@hotmail.com> Depending on where you live (Shipping and handling). I'd like one. I'm in NJ. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 8 07:19:55 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: MC68010 (was Re: Stupid lusers...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Anyway, What's a 68010 do? Anyone have pinouts/assembler refrences/etc? > >Can I make it do something interesting? > > IIRC, when you replace a 68000 in an Amiga with one of them the Amiga will > be 14% faster. However, some software would no longer work on it, as it is > slightly different, slightly faster than a standard 68000. I gather this > was actaully a popular Amiga upgrade in day's gone by. I had a 68010 in my A1000 for a few years, until I bought my A1200 and put the 68000 back. The amount of speed increase the 68010 brought very much depended on the software being used. Turbo Silver (which IS classic ray tracing software) only sped up by about 5%-7%, depending on the scene being rendered. That's less than it was hyped-up to do, and unfortunately that's the only software I timed before and after the 68010 installation. And indeed, some software wouldn't work anymore. That was generally not a problem for software that didn't kill the OS, because you could run something called 'decigel' which would trap the illegal instruction (MOVE SR, which became available only in supervisor mode). The calculator program distributed with Workbench 1.1 used this instruction, as did Transformer. Transformer had to be patched to run on anything but the 68000. Some commercial games and some demos I've got also won't work with the 68010, which is why I replaced the 68000 when I no longer had need of the "speed". The following is part of the "mc68010.ins" file I downloaded from a BBS many years ago, which convinced me to try the 68010 (and no, I didn't understand everything in the file, but I found an '010 for $Can30 and said 'what the heck'): -------------------------------------------------------------------------- III. M68000 MICRO MINUTES (c) Motorola MM-444-02 Advantages of Upgrading an MC68000 to an MC68010 There are several ways a system's performance can be upgraded. Some are software related, such as lowering operating system overhead, obtaining better quality language compilers, wisely designing application programs, and coding applications more efficiently. Others are hardware related, such as adding memory, improving I/O channel data rates, increasing mass storage speed and capacity, reducing memory access times, and upgrading the system processor's clock frequency. When considering an MC68000 system upgrade to higher performance, the obvious thought is to redesign for a higher frequency MC68000. For example, a current MC68000 system running at 10 MHz could be redesigned to run at 12.5 MHz, thereby increasing system throughput by 25%. The "obvious solu- tion", however, is not necessarily the most appropriate or cost-effective once several factors are taken into consideration and alternative solutions examined. The speed-up of a system clock will not be effective unless the system's memory access time is also improved. The performance of the MC68000 is strictly limited by the bus speed, and if no improvement in memory speeds are available, then an increase in system clock speed will lead to negligible improvement in the overall result. A 10 MHz processor running with no "wait states" utilizes a 400 nS bus cycle (4 clocks x 100 nS/clock). This same bus cycle timing, however, leads to a wait cycle on a 12.5 MHz processor (4 clocks x 80 nS/clock + 80 nS of idle time). Thus, the bus performance is exactly the same, but the faster processor is idled for one complete clock cycle. Since a decrease in the bus cycle time provides a directly proportional increase in processor throughput (until, of course, the memory cycle becomes faster than the fastest processor bus cycle), the 12.5 MHz processor has no relative performance advantage over the 10 MHz system. The bottom line, then, is that in order to be effective, a higher speed processor must run with fewer or the same number of "wait states". This normally requires a redesign of the memory subsystem to improve the memory access time. Referring to the MC68000 Data Manual (ADI-814-R4), the memory access re- quirements for the various speed processors can be examined. The effective memory access time (Taccs) of the MC68000 to a memory array (from assertion of Address Strobe [-AS] to data valid) is: Taccs = Tch + 2Tcyc - Tchs1 - Tdic1 + (n * Tcyc) where: Tch is the clock high time (system dependent) Tcyc is the clock period of the processor clock Tchs1 is the delay time from the rising edge of the clock to the assertion of address strobe Tdic1 is the data input set-up time prior to the falling edge of the clock n is the number of wait cycles in the system Assuming a symmetric clock (50% duty cycle), the memory speed required for a no "wait-state" bus cycle for a 19 Mhz MC68000 processor is 185 nS (50 + 200 - 55 -10 + 0). This bus speed can be easily realized with readily available 150 nS dynamic RAMs and careful system design. However, with the same assumptions, the memory speed required for a no "wait-state" bus cycle on a 12.5 Mhz processor is reduced to 135 nS (40 + 160 - 55 - 10 + 0) which presents an obvious problem to the cost-conscious system designer -- lack of cost-effective, large capacity 100 nS RAMs! Memory access times are not the only difficulty encountered with the faster clock speeds. In a similar vein, the design of an efficient 12.5 MHz system is more difficult than that of a 10 MHz system, since more careful attention must be paid to the physical design of the board in order to account for the higher frequency signals present, and the increased sensitivity to transient phenomena. A "painless" alternative means to EFFECTIVELY increase system performance is to upgrade to the MC68010 processor. The MC68010 at equal clock fre- quencies will run from 8% to 50% faster than an MC68000 without any user code changes. The speed-ups are due to several microcode enhancements: many 32-bit operations, conditional branches, multiply, divide and other miscellaneous instructions run faster. Systems which use memory management can have dramatic improvements with slight operating system changes utilizing a few new MC68010 instructions such as "Move to/from Address Space" (MOVES). Systems may see a significant improvement if they heavily utilize multiply, divide and looping operations. Loops run from 23% to 80% faster once the microcode sets up the automatic "loop mode". Such loops benefit particular functions such as block moves, character matching and general string manipulation operations, and multiple-precision binary and packed BCD arithmetic. The new MC68010 multiply is 14 clocks faster, and the divide is 32 clocks faster than the MC68000. Programs utilizing (or with the potential of utilizing) such operations can obtain an increase in perfor- mance easily exceeding 10%. An additional "plus" of the MC68010 is the provision of a clear path for the upgrade of current operating systems to full virtual operating systems utilizing the sophisticated virtual memory processing capabilities of the MC68010 (which is the same virtual environment offered by the 32-bit MC68020). Since the MC68010 is pin-for-pin compatible with the MC68000, *NO* hardware redesign is necessary. Only very minor software changes may have to be made depending on operating system conventions. The MC68010 differs from the MC68000 in that: 1) a generic "vector word" has been added to the MC68010 stack frame; and 2) the MC68000's "MOVE SR,ea" has been made a privileged operation. Easy software solutions for these two minor differences are: 1) any routines which build exception stacks (e.g. those which dispatch a routine via an RTE instruction) are modified to account for the four word stack frame (the MC68000 uses a three word stack frame); and 2) an exception handler is added to provide for privilege violations generated by the execution of the "MOVE SR,ea" instructions in the USER state (local Motorola representatives can supply a debugged handler to suit the requirements of any OS). Major operating systems have been ported from the MC68000 to the MC68010 in less than a single day, reflecting the trivial changes required in the super- visory level code. The bottom line is, by upgrading an MC68000 system to an MC68010 system, an increase in system performance is obtained which is equal to that which a system redesign from 10 MHz to 12.5 MHz would provide, but with signifi- cantly less design cost and effort. The "speed-only" upgrade could only achieve, at best, a 25% system improvement, and only if the system memory access time is significantly improved. The MC68010 upgrade offers from 8% to 50% improvement. Note that the speed gained by changing to the MC68010 is achieved with NO change in memory speeds, NO board redesign, and NO higher speed parts installed in the system as would be required to upgrade a system to a 12.5 MHz part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jun 5 03:26:21 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) In-Reply-To: References: <199806072128.AA25588@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 7, 98 05:28:54 pm Message-ID: <199806081225.IAA14516@smtp.interlog.com> On 8 Jun 98 at 0:21, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > <(I doubt anyone wants to go through a routine of converting files > > > > > > Not so. Runs fairly well on similar machines. DRI evern did a version > > of tex for CP/M. Have the manual and software. > > I'm halfway through reading 'TeX : The program', and I'm supprised it'll > run on a CP/M machine. It's possible, I suppose. On this machine the > binary for virtex (The normal version) is about 180K, and then it needs a > bit of data space for various tables on top of that. > > > > > Personally I used runoff a lot, it was quite fast. > > > > Allison > > > -tony > TeX was also ported to the ST . I've never tried it, but the local user group has it. I think it came on about 12 720k disks tho. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jun 5 03:26:20 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: References: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 7, 98 07:58:41 am Message-ID: <199806081226.IAA14532@smtp.interlog.com> On 7 Jun 98 at 16:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > > > > > Does anybody know anything about these "thrid-party Macintoshes?" I'm > > > familiar with the Outbound computers, I have never even heard of any > > > other early Mac clones. Any info? > > > > How about Atari STs and Amigas running Macintosh emulators? :) :) :) > > Wasn't there a thing called a 'Magic Sack' or something that was a cartridge > for the ST which you put the ROMs from a Mac into. One version had a Mac > disk controller (IWM) chip in it as well, I think. > > Problem was, it needed genuine Apple Mac ROMs. The only way to get those, > at least at first, was to strip them out of a Mac. > > -tony > > It was called Magic-sac ands put out by a very bright guy called Dave Small. He got into a lot of litigation hassles. He emerges periodically to present some idea or other. TMK he's just gone back into hiatus again. I've got 2 Magic-sac+'s , 1 needs a batterie replacement. I haven't opened it up for a while but it's entirely possible it had the controller chip. I prefer to use the real thing or else the ST. There were also PC, C64 , and CoCo emulators for the Atari ST as well as Minix, a Unix clone. Magic -sac was probably the best and Minix needs an upgrade to 4 megs to properly function. Not to be confused with Magic-Mac an ST emulator from Germany. Word is it speeds up the Mac and some ST users made the switch based on that. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From kyrrin at jps.net Mon Jun 8 08:21:57 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Service Note: M4 Data 9914 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980608062157.00e57340@mail.jps.net> Although the hardware I'm mentioning is not in itself 'classic,' the technology of 9-track tape certainly is. Forgive me if this seems off-topic, but I'm trying to spare anyone else lucky enough to nab one or more M4 Data 9914 tape drives some grief. There is a potential problem spot in the early production (pre-1992, as I recall) power supply boards to watch out for with these drives. The +12 rail is supplied by an LM350 in a TO-3 case. The leads from the 350 are joined to a three-pin Molex connector that is then plugged into a matching male header on the regulator board. I've seen two failure modes in this design to date. 1). Failure of the regulator. Symptoms include initial startup OK, followed by the +12 rail dropping to about 8.4 volts after no more than three minutes. If the regulator output is examined with an O-scope, one will see an AC potential of about 1.6 MHz at nearly two volts peak-to-peak. Also of note is that the regulator gets a lot warmer than normal, as does the bridge diode module supplying the regulator's input. I've been told by M4's service department that the most common fix for this is to replace capacitor C10 on the regulator board. There is also an alternative cure, specifically replacing the LM350 with a Motorola MC78T12 in a TO-220 case (doesn't seem to be available in a TO-3). Note that it is CRITICAL to use the 78T12, not a standard 7812. The 'T' version has an output current rating of 3 amps, vs. the 1A rating of the standard 7812. The +12 rail in these drives pulls about 2A under normal operation. 2). Poor contact in the three-pin connector, which results in overheating and connector burning. I saw this in the drive I got most recently. Since I lacked a suitable replacement connector, I merely removed the male header and the burned female connector, and then soldered the wires directly to the pads. Post-1992 drives have, I'm told, a completely redesigned power supply that addresses these issues. Caveat emptor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mor at crl.com Mon Jun 8 07:35:28 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones References: Message-ID: <357BDA90.7A422DD8@crl.com> Doug Spence wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > > > Does anybody know anything about these "thrid-party Macintoshes?" I'm > > familiar with the Outbound computers, I have never even heard of any > > other early Mac clones. Any info? > > How about Atari STs and Amigas running Macintosh emulators? :) :) :) I've got a user port add-on for the ST called "Mac-in-Sack" which I'm guessing is a hardware emulation board. No docs and I haven't had time to play with it. I would assume it runs Mac software pretty slowly with assorted compatibility issues. Anyone have experience with it? -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Jun 8 08:59:50 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 6, 98 05:27:19 pm Message-ID: <199806081359.JAA13309@shell.monmouth.com> > This is not the place to flame about failed circus, but I've seen what > some of the poorer Field Sevoids can do. Suffice it to say I'd not trust > them to keep a torch (flashlight, not a XXX :-)) running, let alone a > minicomputer. I've also met some excellent ones, BTW, who taught me a lot. > -tony I've begun to feel that anyone who got into Field Circus work after '83 or so shouldn't be allowed any tools trickier than a screwdriver. Bill ex-DEC Field Circus 1981-86 +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 8 08:47:47 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Location, Location, Location! In-Reply-To: <357A9271.36D80FA5@texoma.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980608084747.00c56a80@pc> It would be MOST helpful if people mentioned the location (city, state, province, country, etc.) of the equipment that's about to land in the dumpster. It is not intuitively obvious to everyone in the world that (423) area code means Bellevue. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 8 08:59:37 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <199806080344.WAA04658@garcon.laidbak.com> References: <357AD1F1.CF3CE678@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980608085937.00ca5990@pc> At 10:47 PM 6/7/98 -0500, nerdware@laidbak.com wrote: > >IIRC, NewTek (makers of the Video Toaster) decided that since they were >having some trouble getting the Toaster accepted in the mainstream because >most people thought the Amiga was only a toy, they created an interface card >for a Mac that would allow the Mac user to run the Toaster-equipped A2000 >(private-labeled for NewTek) from his Mac, thereby making it 'legit'. At the time, my company had licensed some software to NewTek that was bundled with the Toaster, including the PICT bitmap translator for that variant. I also wrote the smoke-and-mirrors demo of the Toaster for the PC, shown at a COMDEX and that won a little "Best of Show" crystal trophy. So thorough was the judging that they didn't notice the Amiga under the table that was actually doing the flashy video, or the serial cable from the PC that was running a Visual BASIC program that sent ARexx script commands to the Amiga... I liked your Robert X. Cringely tribute page. I've had several leaks leaked through him, although they were usually quite unrecognizable once they'd been digested and printed. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From Marty at itgonline.com Mon Jun 8 10:09:52 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: VCF2 Announcement Message-ID: <1998Jun08.110846.1767.109524@smtp.itgonline.com> Are transcripts from VCF1 (and VCF2 for that matter) speakers going to be available for sale? Please let me know cost and where to remit payment if so. Thanks, Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: VCF2 Announcement Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 6/7/98 2:12 AM ___________________________________________________________________________ | | | .================================================================. | | // ______ o_ ___________ \\ | | // / \ \ o o o o o o | ____ \ \\ | | H / | | | | | | | | | | \ \ \\ | | H / ____|____|____|____|____|____|____|____|____|____|___ \ \ `=o | | H | | | \ \ | | H | | The Premier Event for Computer Enthusiasts is Back! | \ \__ | | H | | | \ | | | H o | V I N T A G E C O M P U T E R F E S T I V A L |__ \ o | | H | | \ \ | | H \ - VCF2 - | \ `-o | | H | |\ `----o | | H | September 26-27, Santa Clara Convention Center | `-------o | | H / Santa Clara, California | | | H | | | | H | Speakers, Exhibit and Flea Market | | | H | | | | H | O http://www.siconic.com/vcf | | | H |_____________________________________________________| ____o | | H | | | | | | | | | | / | | H | | | | | | | | | |______/ | | H============' | | | | | | | |_________________ | | H / | | \ \ \ |_____________________ | | | H / / | `-o \ \ || | | H o___________/ / \______ \ \ || | | H o \_____|____|___________________ || | | H ____________________________ | | || | | H | | | The S P E A K E R S | || | | `=| Why would YOU come to the | __| |___|| | | _| Vintage Computer Festival? | | | | | | | |____________________________| |-David Rutland | | | | |__________________________________| | | | | ________________________ ___| On the National Bureau of |__ | | | | || || || | / | Standards Western Automatic | | | | .-| To Learn the History |--' | Computer (SWAC). Mr. Rutland | | | | | |__||_||_||______________| | worked under Harry D. Huskey | | | | o ________________________ ___| to create the control unit |____| | | | || || || | / | for this little known but | | | o-| For the Nostalgia |--' | historically significant | | | |__||_||_||______________| | computer. | | | o ________________________ \______| |___o | | | | || || || | | | | | `-| To Hear the Speakers |-._____| FEATURED SPEAKER | o | | |__||_||_||______________| | | / | | ________________________ ____|-Ray Holt |___/ | | | || || || |__/ | | | | .-|To Buy Vintage Computers|-------| Who really invented the |-----o | | | |__||_||_||______________| | first microprocessor? Guess | | | o ________________________ ______| again. The answer will stun |_____ | | | || || || |/ | you. This designer of the | | | | o-|For the Games & Contests|--. | JOLT and developer of the | | | | |__||_||_||______________| \___| classic Synertek SYM-1 sin- | | | | ________________________ __| gle-board computer will re- |_____| | | | || || || | | veal why computer history | | | | o-|To Meet Other Collectors|-o | may need to be re-written. | | | | |__||_||_||______________|___ | | | | | ________________________ \___| |__o | | | | || || || | | * speaker list as of 6/1/98 | | | | o-| To Meet the Pioneers |---. | ____ O | | | | |__||_||_||______________| \ |____________/ \____________| | | | ________________________ \ | | | | || || || | \ | | | .-| For the Prizes! |----. \________________________________o | | | | |__||_||_||______________| \ | | | | \__________________________________ | | | o o________ \ | | | ,=============o \ ______________________________ | | | | // | o__ \ | | | | | | H ___________|________ \ \___| The W O R K S H O P S |___| | | | H | | \ | | | | | H \ Philosophy of the / \ | | | | | H | Vintage Computer |___ \___|-Tom Geller |_____| | | H | Festival... | \ | | | | H / \ \ | Whether you're into game | | | H | The main mission | \_____| consoles, handheld devices, |____o | | H | of the Vintage | | arcade machines or personal | | | H | Computer Festival | | computers, there's a Mac- | | | H | is to promote the |__________| based emulator for you. |____o | | H | preservation of | | | | | H | "obsolete" compu- | | | | | H | ters by offering- | ___| * workshop list as of 6/1/98 |_____ | | H | attendees a chance | / | ____ O | H | | H | to experience the | / |____________/ \____________| H | | H | technologies, peo- | / H | | H | ple and stories | | H | | H | that embody the- | | H | | H | remarkable tale of | | __ ___ __________________ H | | H | the computer revo- | | | |__| | | H | | H | lution. | | | |Someone lucky will|==-----H | | H |____________________| | | | go home with an | H | | H | / | _ | | H | | H o o_/ | (_) | IMSAI 8080 |==--o H | | H _________________________ | | | H | | H o__| VCF2 S P O N S O R S | | | See the VCF web | H | | H | www.haggle.com | | __ | page for details |==--o H | | H____| Dr. Dobb's Journal | |__| |___|__________________| H | | H |_________________________| H | | \\ // | | `=====================================================================' | | | | V2.0 rev 1 http://www.siconic.com/vcf (C) SICONIC 1998 | |___________________________________________________________________________| _ Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Jun07.021241.1767.45410; Sun, 07 Jun 1998 02:12:42 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id XAA22596; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:06:53 -0700 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id XAA10316 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:06:44 -0700 Received: from mailq1.ncal.verio.com (mailq1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.43]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id XAA03375 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:06:43 -0700 Received: from shell.wco.com (root@shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by mailq1.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22393 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell (dastar@shell [199.4.94.16]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id XAA25779 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: VCF2 Announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Classic Computer Discussion X-Sender: dastar@shell X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 8 11:02:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <199806081602.AA23237@world.std.com> <> It should be different as Knuth's was written in C and tex is asm or pl < ^^^^^^^^^^^^ code. No credit given and. It's a simpler version circa 1978 and the <> putput formats are oriented toward character printers. < Message-ID: <199806081615.LAA02534@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> You know, serendipidy is a funny thing. I was at a flea market on Sunday looking for some Apple ][ software, when this guy comes walking into the booth bearing an ATT 7300 UnixPC (and a C-64). He asks the proprietor what he'll give for this 'stuff'. The prop. looks at the 'stuff', offers him $15 for the Commodore, and when asked about the 7300 says: "Nope, cant offer you anything for it. Can't use it. Too dumb." Hm. So I offers the guy $5. "I had no idea 7300's were so *heavy*", I thought as I later hefted it into the trunk of my car. Anyways, I also have a 400 series Tower (as mentioned in the exerpt below), and lots of spare boards (including the meter-long systemboard). I could have purchased a 68020 conversion kit for my tower from WierdStuff in San Jose (this was back in the days when they carried actually interesting material), but I didn't have the bucks. Jeff > >> The MC68010 is the heart of my favorite computer ever, the AT&T Unix PC > >> (built by Convergent Technologies). I've got three, two work fine, one > >> is for parts. _Still_ the prettiest machines in my collection. > > Do you mean the NCR Tower series? Or was this some other offering by > AT&T? I seem to remember that the old Tower 400's had 68010's - I've > still got a few boards somewhere for one (system board was about 1 metre > long and half a metre high!). I've got a complete Tower 700 with a 68030 > as main CPU, and performance still rates really highly even these > days...) > > > Jules > > From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Jun 8 11:26:09 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: 680x0's, Towers, & Serendipity was:Stupid lusers... Message-ID: >> Anyways, I also have a 400 series Tower (as mentioned in the exerpt >> below), and lots of spare boards (including the meter-long >> systemboard). nice to know there's still some Tower users about - there seemed to be quite a following a few years ago but interest in them seems to have dried up (although there's probably a few posts to comp.sys.ncr still - one day I'll get proper Usenet access here :) do you know if NCR (or AT&T, or whoever's responsible for these things these days!!) can still supply OS tapes? I got my '700 with all sorts of software on the disks - the guys it came from we in to developing programs for X-windows so there's quite a lot of cool stuff on there. Sadly no OS tapes and no manuals (I borrowed field service manuals from someone a while back so have all the useful info from there). mind you, last time I tried to power up the machine it was completely dead. I only had a few minutes so checked obvious fuses etc, but without any luck. Hopefully something simple - I don't fancy trying to trace a fault on one of those system boards :*) > cheers Jules From poesie at geocities.com Mon Jun 8 11:39:29 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: those amigas.... Message-ID: <357C13C1.1F66@geocities.com> Ahhh... hehe... neglected to mention I am in the twin cities (minneapolis/st paul.) Don't know if they have video toasters but if they do I'm going to get all of them. PS. I date more or less around the Apple II... first computer I ever had was a C64. I guess I've missed all the fun. -Eric From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 8 13:00:14 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: 680x0's, Towers, & Serendipity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199806081703.MAA02630@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > nice to know there's still some Tower users about - there seemed to be > quite a following a few years ago but interest in them seems to have > dried up (although there's probably a few posts to comp.sys.ncr still - > one day I'll get proper Usenet access here :) I haven't looked at that NG for awhile. The 400 series towers were under the distinct diadvantage that there was no (official) support for TCP/IP. > do you know if NCR (or AT&T, or whoever's responsible for these things > these days!!) can still supply OS tapes? I got my '700 with all sorts of > software on the disks - the guys it came from we in to developing > programs for X-windows so there's quite a lot of cool stuff on there. > Sadly no OS tapes and no manuals (I borrowed field service manuals from > someone a while back so have all the useful info from there). You know, I had the address of a vendor that could get you those; unfortunately, though, they wanted an arm and a leg for it >:-P. I got the tapes for my machine, but NCR states vehemently that they *cannot* be copied. I don't believe this, of course (how did they write the tape in the 1st place?), but I dont' know how you would copy them. The tower actually *boots* from the tape during install! Is that crazy or what? Jeff > mind you, last time I tried to power up the machine it was completely > dead. I only had a few minutes so checked obvious fuses etc, but without > any luck. Hopefully something simple - I don't fancy trying to trace a > fault on one of those system boards :*) > > > > cheers > > Jules > From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 8 12:13:06 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:24 2005 Subject: 680x0's, Towers, & Serendipity was:Stupid lusers... Message-ID: <017701bd9300$b6afcea0$3367bcc1@hotze> Cool!!! (And to think that I nearly paid $50 for one of those Sharps...) BTW, find any A2 software? Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Kaneko To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 1:16 AM Subject: 680x0's, Towers, & Serendipity was:Stupid lusers... You know, serendipidy is a funny thing. I was at a flea market on Sunday looking for some Apple ][ software, when this guy comes walking into the booth bearing an ATT 7300 UnixPC (and a C-64). He asks the proprietor what he'll give for this 'stuff'. The prop. looks at the 'stuff', offers him $15 for the Commodore, and when asked about the 7300 says: "Nope, cant offer you anything for it. Can't use it. Too dumb." Hm. So I offers the guy $5. "I had no idea 7300's were so *heavy*", I thought as I later hefted it into the trunk of my car. Anyways, I also have a 400 series Tower (as mentioned in the exerpt below), and lots of spare boards (including the meter-long systemboard). I could have purchased a 68020 conversion kit for my tower from WierdStuff in San Jose (this was back in the days when they carried actually interesting material), but I didn't have the bucks. Jeff > >> The MC68010 is the heart of my favorite computer ever, the AT&T Unix PC > >> (built by Convergent Technologies). I've got three, two work fine, one > >> is for parts. _Still_ the prettiest machines in my collection. > > Do you mean the NCR Tower series? Or was this some other offering by > AT&T? I seem to remember that the old Tower 400's had 68010's - I've > still got a few boards somewhere for one (system board was about 1 metre > long and half a metre high!). I've got a complete Tower 700 with a 68030 > as main CPU, and performance still rates really highly even these > days...) > > > Jules > > From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Jun 8 12:17:46 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: 680x0's, Towers, & Serendipity Message-ID: >> I haven't looked at that NG for awhile. The 400 series towers were >> under the distinct diadvantage that there was no (official) support >> for TCP/IP. I was lucky enough to get an ethernet board with my '700 - I've run up XDM on the 700 before and then connected to it from an old '486 PC running Linux just for the hell of it. :) > > > [ OS tapes ] >> You know, I had the address of a vendor that could get you those; >> unfortunately, though, they wanted an arm and a leg for it >:-P. well you could get them through NCR when I last looked (about three years ago now), but they wanted something like 800 dollars US for them, which seemed a little on the expensive side for a ten year old machine that wasn't ever going to be used for anything profitable!! :) >> I got the tapes for my machine, but NCR states vehemently that they >> *cannot* be copied. I don't believe this, of course (how did they >> write the tape in the 1st place?), but I dont' know how you would >> copy them. I'd agree with you there - surely a raw copy of the tape would work. Maybe there was code in the OS to prevent you from reading raw from an OS tape or something, but I'd assume that it could just be copied on another Unix machine. > >> The tower actually *boots* from the tape during install! Is that >> crazy or what? from what I've seen a lot of Unix machines will do this for diagnostic / install purposes. It's one of those things that reminds me how much I hate modern PCs... Think the best I can do with my 700 is hook the disks up under Linux or something (they're SCSI on the 700, not MFM) and do a raw dump on the disk. In theory I suppose I could then find an identical drive from somewhere and restore the system... (Has anyone ever tried this!?) cheers Jules > > >Jeff > >> mind you, last time I tried to power up the machine it was completely >> dead. I only had a few minutes so checked obvious fuses etc, but without >> any luck. Hopefully something simple - I don't fancy trying to trace a >> fault on one of those system boards :*) >> > >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> > From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 8 12:31:46 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: VCF2 Announcement In-Reply-To: <1998Jun08.110846.1767.109524@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Marty wrote: > Are transcripts from VCF1 (and VCF2 for that matter) speakers going to > be available for sale? Please let me know cost and where to remit > payment if so. Yes. Check the web pages in July for the VCF 1.0 talks on tape (I promised these in May but times have been busy). VCF2 talks will also be made available after the show. Again, check the web pages, Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jun 8 13:54:57 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: FS: Apple programs, books, etc Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980608135457.2dffc9b8@intellistar.net> I have the following Apple II stuff for sale for the best offer. Everything is in perfect condition. If you're interested contact me privately. I don't have ANY Apple stuff that's not listed here. Joe Codex Training Program: Manage your Business with MultiPlan. (disks, book and box) MS Multi-Tool Financial Statement. (disks and book) Quark Catalyst IIe, Program selector for Apple IIe. (disks and book) MicroRef Quick Reference Guide (Word Perfect) DOS? Perfect Link Telecommunications SW (disks, book and box) PFS File Database Management. (disks, book and box) PFS Convert 2 disks only PFS Write Word Processor (disks, book and box) PFS Graph Presentation Graphics (disks, book and box) PFS Report generator (disks, book and box) Hacker game (disks and book) One-on-One basketball game. (disks and book) Apple Logo computer language. (disks, book and box) Super Calc 3a (disks, book and box) Money Street checkbook financial system (disks, book and box) Apple IIe Technical Reference Manual, hard cover ~390 pages Jeeves, personal desktop organizer. (disks, book and box) Computing with the Apple, softcover book Alpha Graph, pie and bar charting program. (disks and book) TaxVision, tax planner. (disks and book) Mostly BASIC, Applications for your Apple II. ~160 page book The Best Apple Software. By Editors of Consumer’s Guide. ~165 page book MultiPlan for the Apple II Plus and IIe. (Training Guide). (disks and book) Inside Apple ProDOS. ~305 page book MS MultiPlan. (disks and book) Sideways. (disks and book) The Sider (manual and disks no hardware) Apple Machine Language for Beginners by Compute ~430 page book The Apple Personal computer for Beginners. ~240 page book Practical Pascal Programs. ~205 page book Minute Manual for PFS: File, Report, Graph, Write The Endless Apple. ~ 270 page book Vanloves Apple II/III Software Directory. a BUNCH of pages The BASIC Conversions HandBook for Apple, TRS-80 and Pet Users. ~80 page book Apple II Super Serial Card User’s Manual (two of them) Apple II AppleMouse II User’s Manual Apple Works Quick Reference Card Apple II DOS User’s Manual Apple II e ProDos Supplement to the Apple II e Owner’s Manual Apple II ProDos User’s Manual Image Writer Owner’s Manual Image Writer User’s Manual. Part I: Reference Image Writer User’s Manual. Part II: Guide to Apple II Apple IIe Design Guidelines Apple II 80 Column Text Card Manual Apple II Extended 80 Column Text Card Supplement (two of them) Apple II AppleSoft BASIC Programmer’s Reference Manual Vol I Apple II AppleSoft BASIC Programmer’s Reference Manual Vol II Apple II DOS Programmer’s Manual Apple II AppleWorks Reference manual Apple II AppleWorks Tutorial Apple II e Owner’s Manual Apple II e Owner’s Manual (different from the first one, two of these) Apple DUODISK Owner’s Manual Apple Pascal Operating System Reference Manual Apple Pascal Language Reference manual Apple Diskware Apple Pascal (three disk set) Apple II Apple Soft Tutorial for the II e Only Apple II Super Serial Card Installation and Operating Manual MicroSoft Multi-Tool Budget for the Apple II & II e. (With manual and disk in the original plastic box. It doesn’t look like it was ever opened.) And I'll throw in: Texas Instruments Computer Program Writing Workbook From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 8 12:23:22 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) In-Reply-To: <19980608004055.12937.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 7, 98 05:40:55 pm Message-ID: <199806081723.NAA09789@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Max Eskin once stated: > > Right, but consider the other stuff. You need postscript, preferrably > a program for previewing the dvi file before printing, etc. > I think my pentium is faster ;) But that wasn't my original question. > Does anyone on this list actually use a REALLY old unusual machine > like IMSAI, CoCo, C64, Apple ][, etc. as their major word processing > system (unusual compared to Tony's AT)? Used to. Between '86 and '91 I used my Coco II (maxed to 64K RAM, one disk drive, Tandy Daisy wheel printer) for word processing, and even made a few bucks doing resumes (not enough to recover the price of the disk and printer though 8-) Everything [1] for print was done on that system, including a humor column for the university paper [2] using VIP Writer. Not a bad system; mostly like nroff. Now, I use either PE [3] or joe for most of my word proccessing needs, and am learning TeX. What a neat system. -spc (And TeX is the only program I know of to be garunteed bug free) [1] Almost everything. A few columns were literally banged out on a portable manual Smith-Corona, which is older than I am (and I still have it). [2] Check http://www.armigeron.com/people/spc/writings/murphy for the columns. Transferring them from the Coco (aqnd VIP Writer format) to the server was ... interesting, and involved two intermediary systems. [3] PE 1.0, copyright 1982 by IBM for MS-DOS 1.x and above. In the 11 years I've been using that program, I've not come across one bug yet. Impressive program. From tomowad at earthlink.net Mon Jun 8 14:25:14 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <199806081925.MAA17608@denmark.it.earthlink.net> >Powder Blue Computers >Akkord Technologies each used Mac 128k ROMs >Colby: >WalkMac SE -- $3999 >WalkMac SE 30 -- $6699 > >Dynamic: (around for a few years) >Dynamac Plus $4995 >Dynamac SE 30 - $7954 > >Outbound Anybody have any of these? Any experience with them. I would love some further information. >The bit on Outbound shocked me, it seems they were actually working with >Apple. To quote the 2nd edition: "While Outbound continues to floursh-thanks to a wisely-forged legal agreement and clever positioning of their Macintosh portable versus the Apple PowerBooks-I question their long-term staying power." Tom Owad From tomowad at earthlink.net Mon Jun 8 14:25:27 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <199806081925.MAA17761@denmark.it.earthlink.net> >I made a timely find today of the first edition of _Build Your Own >Macintosh and Save a Bundle_. In Chapter 2 it has a price comparison >between the clone "Cat" Mac and the real Mac. The computers it lists are: > >Cat Mac SE >Cat Mac SE 30 >Cat Mac II >Cat Mac IIfx >Cat Mac IIcx >Cat Mac IIci I was referring to the actual clones. I'm not sure where it is in your book, but in my 2nd edition, if you look at Chapter 11, Cat Mac builder alternatives, you will see mention of the Mac clones Zane listed. Tom Owad From tomowad at earthlink.net Mon Jun 8 14:28:52 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: FS: Apple programs, books, etc Message-ID: <199806081928.MAA20065@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Hi Joe, I'm interested in Catalyst. Let me know what you want for it (along with the Lisa). Sincerely, Tom Owad >Quark Catalyst IIe, Program selector for Apple IIe. (disks and book) From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 8 14:32:32 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <19980608193233.7642.qmail@hotmail.com> But there's a difference between a Z-80 running a text-mode interface, and an 8088 running a GUI. Also, remember that Bill Gates didn't know very much about operating systems, as opposed to languages. MS Windows is the only OS MS programmed ground up, something they only started after the A1000. And, I've never seen Windows multitask under 8MB in the way the Amiga or a UNIXoid computer can. >> and Gates replied that multitasking really wasn't possible in >> anything under 8 megs of ram. To which the same reporter replied, >>"But >> doesn't >> your own Amiga Basic multitask nicely on a 512k Amiga?" >> >> A question which Gates promptly ignored and moved on......... > >Especially since the TRS-80 Model 16, with the Xenix OS partly done >by Microsoft, multitasked (and multiusered) quite nicely even with >only 256K of RAM. Not to mention the Color Computer running OS-9 in >64K. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 8 14:38:18 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) Message-ID: <19980608193818.21799.qmail@hotmail.com> Do phones count? >I've begun to feel that anyone who got into Field Circus work after >'83 or so shouldn't be allowed any tools trickier than a screwdriver. > >Bill >ex-DEC Field Circus 1981-86 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 8 14:48:55 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <19980608194855.8450.qmail@hotmail.com> But did Apple license this stuff or were they clean-room type clones? Where did the user get an OS? >>I made a timely find today of the first edition of _Build Your Own >>Macintosh and Save a Bundle_. In Chapter 2 it has a price comparison >>between the clone "Cat" Mac and the real Mac. The computers it lists are: >> >>Cat Mac SE >>Cat Mac SE 30 >>Cat Mac II >>Cat Mac IIfx >>Cat Mac IIcx >>Cat Mac IIci > >I was referring to the actual clones. I'm not sure where it is in your >book, but in my 2nd edition, if you look at Chapter 11, Cat Mac builder >alternatives, you will see mention of the Mac clones Zane listed. > >Tom Owad > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From akcampb at ibm.net Mon Jun 8 15:47:17 1998 From: akcampb at ibm.net (akcampb@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: 3.5 domestic sunbin 68020 1/4" tape Message-ID: <199806082023.UAA41434@out4.ibm.net> Hello, I picked up a box with this Sun OS on 8 tapes. 3.5 domestic sunbin 68020 (boot format). 5 tapes 1.1 SunIPC-M sunbin 68010 (tar) 1.1 SunIPC-M sunbin 68020 (tar) SCSI3 PATCH SUNBIN 68020 (tar)--hand written on box "Do Not Install Patch with V. 3.5." At present I can not use these tapes and do not know if they work. I would *love* to score some cards for this MicroVax II (630QB-A2) that had all the cards removed before I could get to it. Perhaps someone would like to trade parts and/or knowledge for software? The tapes are in what looks like an original box and really want to find a good home. I also seem to have an extra C64, Wang PC3, and an assortment of 8-bit PC cards. Thanks Andy Campbell akcampb@ibm.net From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 8 15:27:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <199806081925.MAA17608@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > >Outbound > > Anybody have any of these? Any experience with them. I would love some > further information. I have one--in pieces. I don't know if it works but I got it all disassembled with cables hanging out of it. A neat unit. Hopefully I'll find a complete one some day, or get this one working. There were not Mac ROMs in it by the way. I paid $5. What specifically did you want to know? It was a Mac clone with 8" x 8" (or so) LCD screen. The integrated pointing device it uses is the most interesting feature. It is a 2" long ridged cylinder that you roll back and forth for up and down motions and slide left and right for left and right motions. Very cool. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 8 15:30:16 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <199806081925.MAA17761@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > >I made a timely find today of the first edition of _Build Your Own > >Macintosh and Save a Bundle_. In Chapter 2 it has a price comparison > >between the clone "Cat" Mac and the real Mac. The computers it lists are: > > > >Cat Mac SE > >Cat Mac SE 30 > >Cat Mac II > >Cat Mac IIfx > >Cat Mac IIcx > >Cat Mac IIci > > I was referring to the actual clones. I'm not sure where it is in your > book, but in my 2nd edition, if you look at Chapter 11, Cat Mac builder > alternatives, you will see mention of the Mac clones Zane listed. The first edition apparently does not include the chart to which you refer. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 8 16:11:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <199806082111.AA02004@world.std.com> ) used on the TRS80 disk basic was amoung the many that preceeded it that was before 1979. The file system was FAT based. > and Gates replied that multitasking really wasn't possible in <>> anything under 8 megs of ram. To which the same reporter replied, The PDP-11s running RSTS (or TSX-11) in the 70s didn't multitask either... sometimes with several dozen users usually in 64kb and maybe 256kb of ram. But heck the PDP-8 was doing in before that in 8kw (RTS-8 or os/8). Of course if you want something modern that can multitask in less than 8mb VAX/VMS (runs fair in 4mb!). Allison From tomowad at earthlink.net Mon Jun 8 16:16:21 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <199806082116.OAA01777@italy.it.earthlink.net> >I have one--in pieces. I don't know if it works but I got it all >disassembled with cables hanging out of it. A neat unit. Hopefully I'll >find a complete one some day, or get this one working. There were not Mac >ROMs in it by the way. I paid $5. Do you mean they were cloned or just weren't any there? >What specifically did you want to know? Anything not already mentioned. The Outbound I've read about, but the other clones are entirely new to me. Tom Owad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 15:37:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Service Note: M4 Data 9914 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980608062157.00e57340@mail.jps.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Jun 8, 98 06:21:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1233 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/7b7f396e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 15:12:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Packing RL02's In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 7, 98 10:33:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/6ebbe2c8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 15:42:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <199806081359.JAA13309@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Jun 8, 98 09:59:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/3c47864e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 15:16:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <003501bd92b0$f25b21c0$c5173ccb@mr-ibm> from "Desie Hay" at Jun 8, 98 05:42:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 434 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/3c87ed87/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 15:24:04 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <357B6B04.BEA36D6@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jun 8, 98 00:39:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 741 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/7967b906/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 15:54:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: CP/M software (was: Former Disk Costs) In-Reply-To: <199806081602.AA23354@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 8, 98 12:02:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 936 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/434c392d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 16:14:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: 680x0's, Towers, & Serendipity In-Reply-To: <199806081703.MAA02630@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jun 8, 98 12:00:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1102 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/8a2b0ab8/attachment.ksh From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Mon Jun 8 17:27:26 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: "Computer Hobbyist" + Homebrew computers Message-ID: <19980608172102.a20b15b1.in@insidermarketing.com> >On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Jon Healey wrote: > >> After a fair amount of effort on my part, I found and obtained a >> copy of the July 1974, Radio-Electronics mag that has the cover >> story "Build the Mark-8, your personal minicomputer". I was >> less than delighted to find that in this instance, R-E left out >> most of the construction details (including any skematics). >> They have an offer on the second page of the article where >> you should order the kit with circuit board patterns, and >> the rest of the details. The article includes some theory of >> ops, a parts list and a few photos. > > >Actually... about a year ago as part of my efforts to re-create a >'Mark-8', I contacted Gernback Publications and was able (with suitable >begging and pleading) to get them to loan me the last existing masters for >the article series AND the construction package. > >>snip > >If anyone would like a copy of this document set, drop me a note. I'd >suggest that to avoid generation loss in copying the docs yet again you >consider sending along a blank CD-R disc with a SASE for its return, and >I'll provide you with the scanned (TIFF) files. (no charge) It's WAY too >big for floppies! > >If you require printed copies, it would be just the cost of printing and >postage. > >(...and if you make a new set of PC boards, I want one too!) B^} > >-jim OK, I just got back in town. Were you deluged? What's your address? I'd be happy to send you a blank CD if you'll make me a set. --Larry Groebe --Dallas TX From poesie at geocities.com Mon Jun 8 17:38:45 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: off topic..... Message-ID: <357C67F5.18F9@geocities.com> I found a compaq vocalyst keyboard today, has 4x5 box type plug... _________ o o o o o o o o o x x x x x x x x x x x --------- something like that, w/ the x's as pins. has built in speaker, mic and ext speaker jack, and PS/2 mouse port on keyboard... any idea what this thing is? or what it was for? i realize that it's not that old, but my interest is too piqued to let it ride. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 16:03:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <199806081609.AA00167@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 8, 98 12:09:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1037 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/871375bf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 15:51:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) In-Reply-To: <199806081602.AA23237@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 8, 98 12:02:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1624 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/086f15d9/attachment.ksh From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Mon Jun 8 17:58:22 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Wire Recorder Message-ID: <19980608175114.a226bdb7.in@insidermarketing.com> >This is not about computers, but it's vintage tech so it's almost on topic... > >Just picked up a very cool miniature battery operated wire recorder and I >need to find out what sort of battery it originally used - or at least to >find out what voltage it takes so I can try it out. Also would like to find >out more about it - date, original cost, etc. > >It's a Minifon Special, made by Protona (Hamburg, Ger.). The battery >compartment measures 1.25 x 3.5 inches, with a flat, brass spring contact >at either end. > >It's a beautiful little machine, in mint condition, complete with fitted >pigskin case. Even the original spool of hair-thin wire is unbroken. >Outside dimensions are 4 x 6.5 x 1.25 inches and it's finished in a sort of >goldish-cream textured lacquer. There are two din sockets on the front, one >with three pins for the mike (included), and another, unmarked, with nine >pins. > >Anybody know anything about this little gem? Surely someone on the list >goes back far enough to have seen one of these... > >R. > Ahh yes, the Minifon. Yes, it's off-topic, but it is/was indeed a cool piece of technology. German from the early 1950s. Wire recording had all but died out, but this machine was smaller than any TAPE recorder, so there was a niche market. Yes, it was used by spies, law enforcement, and such. (There was a version of the microphone built to look and be worn like a wristwatch!) It used subminature tubes 1 1/2 inches long. If you find a 1953 Allied radio catalog you'll find it listed for sale there for $289.50. A transistorized version of this wire recorder was being built after 1960! There's some info on this and about a zillion tape recorders from the 1950s and 60s in a book called "Evolution of the Audio Recorder" by Phil Van Praag. A book I thought I'd never see written - I guess it took an old audio technician to write it. --Larry (Who, in an attempt to drag this back on topic, is trying to envision a wire-recording storage device for a computer. Lousy tracks per inch.) From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 8 18:18:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: 680x0's, Towers, & Serendipity Message-ID: <199806082318.AA15154@world.std.com> <> The tower actually *boots* from the tape during install! Is that <> crazy or what? < from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 8, 98 01:27:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 921 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/939fcaa4/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Mon Jun 8 18:46:54 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Amazing Message-ID: Microsoft NT Server 4.0 ships with GORILLA.BAS Completely bizarre. Any guesses why? I know it's not really classic as I'm fairly sure GORILLA.BAS didn't ship with MS-DOS until version 4 or 5. Still. Weird. ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 18:49:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <199806082318.AA15234@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 8, 98 07:18:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1502 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/ca876643/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 18:51:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) In-Reply-To: <199806082318.AA15294@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 8, 98 07:18:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 714 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/a9d1cda7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 18:54:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <199806082318.AA15446@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 8, 98 07:18:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/d9a24f01/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 8 19:03:04 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <199806082116.OAA01777@italy.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > >I have one--in pieces. I don't know if it works but I got it all > >disassembled with cables hanging out of it. A neat unit. Hopefully I'll > >find a complete one some day, or get this one working. There were not Mac > >ROMs in it by the way. I paid $5. > > Do you mean they were cloned or just weren't any there? The ROM sockets were not populated. Apparently, in order to use this machine you had to snarf the ROMs out of your desktop Mac. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Jun 8 19:03:33 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service In-Reply-To: <199806082318.AA15234@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 8, 98 07:18:08 pm Message-ID: <199806090003.UAA15727@shell.monmouth.com> > Troubleshooting is a very complex process that I've never been able to > teach to anyone but those that naturally could. For me troubleshooting > is something that I find natural and easy. I carry that to design as > just a different problem to solve (cheaper, faster, better; pick any two). > But working with field circus underscored that thinking is not something > you can mandate. > > > Allison > > Actually I agree with you. I put the following problem in front of some techs at TRW who did dos PC's as part of some in-house training. I wrote a program that did a cold boot. I attached it to the ANSI.SYS driver. I gave this PC to them to fix. I watched them swap memory, power supply, motherboard, hard disk controller and such for an hour. After they got tired... I closed the floppy door an a write protected MS-DOS 3.3 floppy and it booted. They never once looked at a software problem. I guess doing mini systems taught me something. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 8 19:10:50 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) Message-ID: <19980609001051.12756.qmail@hotmail.com> >Having creative thoughts is not something (IMHO) that can be taught. Some >people just suddenly think 'Wouldn't it be neat if...' or 'We can do it >like this...'. Of course having a good understanding of the subject, and >know what's been done before help a lot here. And that's were classic >computers come in (to bring this back on topic!) I thought this was on topic anyway... >> > > > >> Troubleshooting is a very complex process that I've never been able to >> teach to anyone but those that naturally could. For me troubleshooting > >The point is, in the UK at least, designers tend to get much better pay, >and are more highly regarded than repairmen. This I think is wrong, but this >list is not the place for that rant. In general, I've found that things like TVs are almost never repaired, at least in the US. Back in the USSR, we repaired everything, including alarm clocks destroyed by trashy batteries that leaked. >I'm not good at troubleshooting, and I could never (for example) repair >TV sets for money. But I've never yet let a fault beat me. It may take me >weeks to solve it, but I'll spend those weeks to sort out a machine. Do you mean you've never left a problem unsolved or never left a machine broken? >> But working with field circus underscored that thinking is not something >> you can mandate. Isn't there some kind of qualification these guys have to pass? Still, I can imagine a 20-year old pizza-eating moron who takes a job like this just to tell his girlfriend, "Hey! I'm a COMPUTER SERVICE TECHNICIAN!"... > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 8 19:16:25 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > The point is, in the UK at least, designers tend to get much better pay, > and are more highly regarded than repairmen. This I think is wrong, but this > list is not the place for that rant. Most anyone can look at something after its been designed and say "Oh, how obvious". But only so many people have the creative ability to initiate the design. Hence, the discrepancy. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 05/30/98] From william at ans.net Mon Jun 8 19:16:39 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yes, but documentation can get lost. For 'rare' machines, important > machines, etc you do keep a log of repairs/restorations, but > none-the-less it can get separated from the machine. I'd rather not > confuse future collectors even more. It is always a good idea to make a condensed copy, maybe even _very_ condensed, and keep them with the machine - tucking (and securing) notes away in unused parts of the case or cabinet. I think you made a good point here - saying "rare" and "important". These are the machines that really need to be treated like this. The common (or even uncommon) stuff really does not _need_ to be treated like the last artifact on Earth, because it isn't. When the population of original Apple IIs drops down to single digit numbers, then action needs to be taken. Until then, I do not think anyone is going to gripe about hacking them up. William Donzelli william@ans.net From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 8 19:16:53 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service Message-ID: <19980609001653.29860.qmail@hotmail.com> A few months ago, PC World did a similar thing, only they made real hardware problems. Cutting the IDE cable on some machines, and rearranging RAM in others (so the SIMMS were no longer paired). Noone solved this. Better yet, the next issue, they published a letter saying that these were clearly artificial problems, and I quote, "IDE cables just don't fail". The guy said that a tech would never think to look at it. BTW, do you train service techs? >> >> Allison >> >> > >Actually I agree with you. I put the following problem in front of some >techs at TRW who did dos PC's as part of some in-house training. > >I wrote a program that did a cold boot. I attached it to the >ANSI.SYS driver. I gave this PC to them to fix. > >I watched them swap memory, power supply, motherboard, hard disk controller >and such for an hour. > >After they got tired... I closed the floppy door an a write protected >MS-DOS 3.3 floppy and it booted. > >They never once looked at a software problem. I guess doing mini systems >taught me something. > >Bill > >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | >| 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | >| pechter@shell.monmouth.com | >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Jun 8 19:19:25 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <19980609001051.12756.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 8, 98 05:10:50 pm Message-ID: <199806090019.UAA23421@shell.monmouth.com> > >> But working with field circus underscored that thinking is not > something > >> you can mandate. > Isn't there some kind of qualification these guys have to pass? Still, > I can imagine a 20-year old pizza-eating moron who takes a job like > this just to tell his girlfriend, "Hey! I'm a COMPUTER SERVICE > TECHNICIAN!"... Actually the certifications (A+, Novell, Microsoft, Sun, SCO, etc.) just show who's willing to memorize tests written for manufacturer and administered by Drake Testing. Each Novell test ran about $80.00 and in some cases (network techniques) was so vendor biased that it was incorrect with regards to other stuff... Check Novell questions on DECnet... 8-) Give me a person who likes and works with machines and understands block diagrams, transmission lines, and power and servo subsystems and he/she'll beat the hell out of the paper wonders any time. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Jun 8 19:21:10 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 8, 98 09:42:46 pm Message-ID: <199806090021.UAA24297@shell.monmouth.com> > > > I've begun to feel that anyone who got into Field Circus work after > > What, even if I decided to become a field servoid... :-) > > > '83 or so shouldn't be allowed any tools trickier than a screwdriver. > > You'd let them have screwdrivers? > > Seriously, the fact that field servoids can't solder and don't use > soldering irons once wasted a morning for me. I'd got an RK05, just off > DEC maintenance, which would spin down after about 45 minutes of heavy > use, and then spin up and reload the heads as if nothing had happened. > > It turned out that for some reason the drive thought the interlock loop > through the 2 microswitches (door closed, pack in place) was opening. > After dismantling the drive front panel, etc I discovered that a cut wire > between the 2 microswitches had been twisted together and covered in > insulating tape. And that's what was failing. Soldering the wires > together cured everything. > > -tony I learned to hate soldering strapping DH11/DM11's up at AT&T. However, some things just require either soldering or rewiring with a fresh piece of wire. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 19:18:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <19980609001051.12756.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 8, 98 05:10:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1910 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/926a03d2/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Mon Jun 8 19:23:26 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Oh come on. Unless there's been a PSU failure or something, we are > talking about replacing 1% or so of the componets. So? To the people that like studying the construction of things at the component level, every part is important. > It's easy to spot an IC that's been soldered by hand on a board of > otherwise wave-soldered components. So if you see a board with a lot of > wave-soldered TI TTL chips and one hand-soldered National one of a > different date code the obvious conclusion is likely to be right. I do not know about that. With a good setup, even replaced surface mount parts can blend right in. > This is a different problem. The CPU is often socketed, and users > sometimes swap CPUs to increase performance. It's then not clear which > CPU should be left in the machine - the one it came with from the factory > or the last one that the user installed. In this case, I would venture to say that greater than 99 percent of all PeeCees have their original CPUs. Only geeks change their chips, Mr. and Mrs. Jones do not. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 19:21:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:25 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 8, 98 05:16:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1002 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/ae1419c8/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 8 20:25:43 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Packing RL02's In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 7, 98 10:33:16 pm Message-ID: <9806090025.AA30335@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 833 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980608/782461a8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 19:26:15 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 8, 98 08:16:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1924 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/50df6d54/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 19:31:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service In-Reply-To: <19980609001653.29860.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 8, 98 05:16:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1090 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/119e2d0c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 19:38:14 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 8, 98 08:23:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1783 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/4ab9061a/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jun 8 20:07:08 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service Message-ID: <86bac1d9.357c8abd@aol.com> In a message dated 6/8/98 8:21:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, maxeskin@hotmail.com writes: << A few months ago, PC World did a similar thing, only they made real hardware problems. Cutting the IDE cable on some machines, and rearranging RAM in others (so the SIMMS were no longer paired). Noone solved this. Better yet, the next issue, they published a letter saying that these were clearly artificial problems, and I quote, "IDE cables just don't fail". The guy said that a tech would never think to look at it. >> yes, someone at work told me about it and i just had to read it myself. it was amazing to say the least, but not really surprising. I work at a help desk and i've talked with both end users and these servicers and ive seen all types. some servicers will condemn a bad system board simply because they dont have the jumpers set so it can post! ive also noticed most servicers just swap parts until it works and most dont even seem to check it out before they give it back to the customer. either A+ certification is bogus, or every servicer needs it. david From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 8 19:45:54 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <003501bd92b0$f25b21c0$c5173ccb@mr-ibm> Message-ID: >bit hard getting a mac into a pc case though, remember that macs have all >the connectors on board, > >desie Can't be any worse than the people that put Atari's or Amiga's in a PC case. I've seen a Atari TT030 in a PC Tower, and it's quite popular among Amiga people to tower their A1200's. All it takes is some creative cabling. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From engine at chac.org Mon Jun 8 20:17:24 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Off-list 6/8-6/21 In-Reply-To: <19980609001051.12756.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980608181724.013d4bc0@pop.batnet.com> I'm unsubscribing temporarily while I'm on the East Coast, to cut down on the volume of forwarded mail. Don't get too rowdy while I'm gone! cheers, __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 8 20:59:36 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Former Disk Costs (was: 32 bit Macs (was Atari hard )) Message-ID: <199806090159.AA01385@world.std.com> 93 CSSE ML0 Printing systems along with Pattenden, Howard, Preece and Paul Nelsons merry crew. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 8 20:59:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <199806090159.AA01567@world.std.com> Message-ID: <357CA501.3A4C@geocities.com> Hehe... as a just-turned-20 yr old computer tech, I would be more than happy to take any job right now fixing computers... we kids are always the first to be laid off :) Although my experience is that anytime I say "hey, can I try to fix that?" People expect me to be at the level of a CompUSA tech. What can I say... I'd rather fix 8088's than packard bell systems :P -Eric >Max Eskin wrote: [snip] > Isn't there some kind of qualification these guys have to pass? Still, > I can imagine a 20-year old pizza-eating moron who takes a job like > this just to tell his girlfriend, "Hey! I'm a COMPUTER SERVICE > TECHNICIAN!"... From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 8 18:56:34 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service In-Reply-To: <86bac1d9.357c8abd@aol.com> Message-ID: <199806090353.XAA05548@mail.cgocable.net> > << A few months ago, PC World did a similar thing, only they made real > hardware problems. Cutting the IDE cable on some machines, and > rearranging RAM in others (so the SIMMS were no longer paired). Noone > solved this. Better yet, the next issue, they published a letter > saying that these were clearly artificial problems, and I quote, > "IDE cables just don't fail". The guy said that a tech would never > think to look at it. >> > > yes, someone at work told me about it and i just had to read it myself. it was ...SNip!... > it back to the customer. either A+ certification is bogus, or every servicer > needs it. > > david Asolutely true! And that takes real skill that you don't see and learn and go by the book. I add to this tricky problems: - Loose drive power connections (the famale connectors is opened up not making firm connections on male connectors) - "Invisiable" Slit in ribbon cables cut by the sharp solder side pins. Real pain to find it. - hard to spot bad ribbon cables. - wrong i/o cables for specific boards. - labels stuck on cpu's top with heatsink installed a. no heatsink grease b. low quality heatsink n fan c. wrong voltage (requires skill to read the # on the cpu and refer to website info). d. motherboard partially supports the certain cpu. Tricky! - Cheapo motherboards (very often!) or cheapo jumpers (did that once after swapping for good jumpers on whole thing). - Invisiable dirt and grease film on PCI and VLB, hi speed edge connectors cards and some gold shiny contacts on simms. - Card bracket too low with too short edge connector. - clock timekeeping drifting. Many don't have voltage meter to check the cmos battery, all it needs is just 0.2V from 3.0V off to lose accuracy on many boards using coin lithium. - Partially working PSU's this one is hard to catch. - Cracked solder joints or low quality solder joints, often seen that in portables and cheapo stuff. - Scratched board traces even it's still good, becomes resistor to create voltage drops or opens. Very rare to find a low quality board with badly etched traces acting as fuse when that happens, opens up. That's real toughie one! - Dead machines with loose screw or metal standoff(s) in wrong locations wedged and out of sight finally shorting out after years. Sometimes lucky somestime not. - Wrong multi-sector setting in bios, screwing the filenames with bit of grabage characters with specific motherboard and specific hard drive (the hd can be latest one) combination. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From erd at infinet.com Mon Jun 8 23:08:18 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service In-Reply-To: <199806090353.XAA05548@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 8, 98 11:56:34 pm Message-ID: <199806090408.AAA12067@user2.infinet.com> Jason D. writes: > I add to this tricky problems: > > - Cheapo motherboards (very often!) or cheapo jumpers (did that > once after swapping for good jumpers on whole thing). Or jumpers missing the brass insert altogether. I found one of those on a SCSI drive that was misbehaving. Fortunately, it was on an ID pin, not a strange-feature pin. When I moved the jumpers around and the ID didn't track, it was easy to zero in. > - Dead machines with loose screw or metal standoff(s) in wrong > locations wedged and out of sight finally shorting out after years. > Sometimes lucky somestime not. I don't know how many times I've seen this one. A cow-orker bought a new MB and it came up DOA. He asked me what could cause a new MB to not work and the power supply to act dead. Without a moment's hesitation, I answered, "a brass standoff in the middle of your board." He thought I was crazy, but he wasn't laughing when he got home. -ethan From desieh at southcom.com.au Tue Jun 9 03:07:35 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <009401bd937d$aa760be0$ef173ccb@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Tom Owad To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 6:09 Subject: Re: Early Mac Clones >>I made a timely find today of the first edition of _Build Your Own >>Macintosh and Save a Bundle_. In Chapter 2 it has a price comparison >>between the clone "Cat" Mac and the real Mac. The computers it lists are: >> >>Cat Mac SE >>Cat Mac SE 30 >>Cat Mac II >>Cat Mac IIfx >>Cat Mac IIcx >>Cat Mac IIci > >I was referring to the actual clones. I'm not sure where it is in your >book, but in my 2nd edition, if you look at Chapter 11, Cat Mac builder >alternatives, you will see mention of the Mac clones Zane listed. > >Tom Owad > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm So it seems that no one has been able to reverse engineer Mac roms? Is it just that no one cares or is Apples legal department much tighter than IBMs From desieh at southcom.com.au Tue Jun 9 03:10:19 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <009f01bd937e$0be41020$ef173ccb@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, June 09, 1998 8:35 Subject: Re: Early Mac Clones >> >> bit hard getting a mac into a pc case though, remember that macs have all >> the connectors on board, > >Why do all computer owners forget about tools other than screwdrivers ? > >The above problem can be solved either by drilling/cutting the PC case to >allow plugs to fit into the sockets on the Mac logic board, or by making >up extension cables between connectors on the case and those on the logic >board. > >> >> desie > >-tony > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm I know, Ive done it before, the back panel is not a pretty site afterwoods............. From desieh at southcom.com.au Tue Jun 9 04:04:28 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Homebrew computer Message-ID: <00e601bd9385$9c521380$ef173ccb@mr-ibm> email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm Some of you guys might find this quite interesting............. http://www.users.interport.net/~zebra/ts2/index.html From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 9 09:40:13 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980609094012.00902100@pop3.mis.ifrsys.com> At 09:59 PM 6/8/98 -0500, Allison wrote: >I earned my keep fixing commercial VHF and UHF radios which from call to >call could be dynamotor and tubes or the lastest IC and solid state >usually no prints and under time pressure. It paid for college. > >FYI I was at DEC from 83->93 CSSE ML0 Printing systems along with >Pattenden, Howard, Preece and Paul Nelsons merry crew. > > >Allison > > > I know this isn't a 'vintage radio' list, but . . . So, were you in the Motorola camp (Twin-V, T-Power, Motrac, Motran) or were you GE (Prog Line, TPL, Mastr? Or possibly one of the few in the RCA arena (CarFone, SuperCarfone, etc.)? I was Motorola, in the Mid 80's myself . . . Jeff From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 9 09:42:55 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980609094255.009073f0@pop3.mis.ifrsys.com> Hey, not to mention those guys that unpackage their CoCo III's and put them into PeeCee cabinets to add SCSI, more disk drives, extra memory, etc. etc. etc. Jeff At 05:45 PM 6/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >>bit hard getting a mac into a pc case though, remember that macs have all >>the connectors on board, >> >>desie > > >Can't be any worse than the people that put Atari's or Amiga's in a PC >case. I've seen a Atari TT030 in a PC Tower, and it's quite popular among >Amiga people to tower their A1200's. All it takes is some creative cabling. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 9 09:57:33 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980609095733.00904100@pop3.mis.ifrsys.com> At 10:36 PM 6/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >Remember: Good, Fast, Cheap pick any two. Here in the USA the cost to >repair often exceeds value on unit, of comes very close to it. A new >boom box 125$, an hour of service time is typically 35-50$ plus parts >(usually a subassembly). If the set is more than x many years old the >feature of a new one and the cost to repair... In some places where >goods are scarce or expensive that level of waste can't exist. ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ You know, I've heard of this. A friend of mine was visiting a customer in Serbia (part of the former Yugoslavia), and he was totally amazed that technicians there were repairing "throw away" modules from the motorola "MX" portable UHF radios. They used home-made tools, and reverse-engineered schematics (the exact contents of these modules was supposed to be a secret). Clever, these eastern europeans . . . . > >I've gotten some good equipment for this reason. I also have some old >equipment because I could fix it real cheap. My first 11/23 was made >from failed FS spares returns that were 'shot to the chip level. That >includes the RL02 I got on a bet. It was mine of I could fix it, it had >been totally taken appart by several people that couldn't fix it... >problem was a bad crimp on a spade lug to the motor start cap. It's >still running and I've never used a alignment pack that one of the >people that took it apart said it would need despite the heads never >being desturbed. > >Then again I can solder too. > >Allison > > > > From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Jun 9 12:10:44 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Does anybody know anything about these "thrid-party Macintoshes?" I'm > > > familiar with the Outbound computers, I have never even heard of any > > > other early Mac clones. Any info? > > > > How about Atari STs and Amigas running Macintosh emulators? :) :) :) > > Wasn't there a thing called a 'Magic Sack' or something that was a cartridge > for the ST which you put the ROMs from a Mac into. One version had a Mac > disk controller (IWM) chip in it as well, I think. A-Max on the Amiga had a similar arrangement. The disk controller was necessary for using the multi-speed drives (which seems to be just about the only format an Amiga can't read). > Problem was, it needed genuine Apple Mac ROMs. The only way to get those, > at least at first, was to strip them out of a Mac. I think actual ROMs were used because of legal issues, not because they were actually needed. At least on the Amiga, we could use a ROM image from disk instead. One funky thing about A-Max running on an Amiga 1000 was that it was able (by use of a special bootblock on the A-Max disk) to overwrite the Kickstart in the Writable Control Store. This meant that my 512K A1000 had as much memory available as a Mac 512K, even with the 128K ROM and emulator loaded. And there was also a RAM disk available at the same time, of about 128K. The BAD thing about (at least that version of) A-Max was that it took over the entire system. This is obviously necessary if Kickstart is going to be removed, but even when this wasn't done, the machine essentially became a Macintosh. AmigaOS was no longer running. I think this may have been fixed in later versions. Other, more recent, emulators allow both operating systems to coexist quite nicely. Oh, BTW, the experience I had with A-Max was with a pirate version, so it's possible the commercial version couldn't work without actual ROMs. I hope I can be forgiven that transgression as I was still a teenager at the time. :) I think MagicSac on the Atari was on the market a year or two earlier than A-Max on the Amiga. > -tony Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From pcoad at wco.com Tue Jun 9 12:42:32 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <009401bd937d$aa760be0$ef173ccb@mr-ibm> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Desie Hay wrote: > > So it seems that no one has been able to reverse engineer Mac roms? > Is it just that no one cares or is Apples legal department much tighter than > IBMs > ARDI has a mac emulator (Executor). From their web page: Executor uses no software from Apple Computer. It doesn't require Mac ROMs or a Mac System file. ARDI's engineers have re-implemented from scratch most of the operating system calls that MacOS provides. This provides speed and flexibility albeit currently at a loss in compatibility. Speed is gained by having all the OS calls running as native, rather than emulated software. By not requiring Apple ROMs, ARDI can allow demo versions of Executor, and can work with creators of Mac-only software to use ARDI technology to port their apps to 80x86 based platforms. However, since not all routines have been implemented, Executor has some limitations. I haven't used it, but it looks interesting if not perfect. While it is not classic hardware, in this case it is the software that is the hard part. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Jun 9 08:45:09 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <357BDA90.7A422DD8@crl.com> Message-ID: <199806091745.NAA26105@smtp.interlog.com> > Doug Spence wrote: > > > > On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > > > > > Does anybody know anything about these "thrid-party Macintoshes?" I'm > > > familiar with the Outbound computers, I have never even heard of any > > > other early Mac clones. Any info? > > > > How about Atari STs and Amigas running Macintosh emulators? :) :) :) > > I've got a user port add-on for the ST called "Mac-in-Sack" which I'm > guessing is a hardware emulation board. No docs and I haven't had time > to play with it. I would assume it runs Mac software pretty slowly with > assorted compatibility issues. Anyone have experience with it? > > -- > mor@crl.com > http://www.crl.com/~mor/ > You'd need the disks for it. Mine are labelled Magic Sac+. It's possible you have an earlier version cause I seem to remember it being referred to as that. I don't have docs but I have the disks if you want copies. I'm sure there's no copyright problem since you have the dongle. You'd boot with an Atari disk and then use the mac-sac transfer disk. IIRC it used System 6.03 . It was much better than the PC Ditto emu that was also available for the ST at the time, which was incredibly slow . ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From archive at navix.net Tue Jun 9 14:07:46 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: JCPenney Video Sports?? Message-ID: <357D8800.FC9AF53B@navix.net> Does any of you have any details on the JC Penney Video Sports pong-type console system? I just picked one up, and am curious for more details on the unit, such as production numbers, current rarity (or lack thereof), and other interesting things about it.... if there are any. Are these things as common as a house-fly? Thanks, CORD COSLOR -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From archive at navix.net Tue Jun 9 14:09:45 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: old sound driver? Message-ID: <357D8878.F52580F8@navix.net> I remember a program, actually a sound driver, that was written for computers without sound cards. I think it was intended for Windows 3.1 or something like that to allow simple .wav files to be played --- in lue of a sound card -- simply used the internal pc speaker. If you have any information on something like this, could you respond to me via private e-mail? Thanks, CORD COSLOR -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Jun 9 13:18:30 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Wang PC-002 ?? Message-ID: Greetings, I saw a very large Wang box at a thrift store yesterday, I *think* the little sticker on it said "PC-002". I didn't see the keyboard, but I didn't look. The machine was really big, I think about twice the height of an old IBM-PC and about the same width. It was longer than it was wide. It had two full-height 5.25" floppy drives. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Jun 9 13:26:54 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos Message-ID: I've got a TRS-80 Model I that MOSTLY works (I typed in a program to fill the screen with characters and the screen did fill up) except for the video synchronization. Characters lean to the right, and the display moves all over the screen. Usually the motion is quickly to the left while also moving upward, though sometimes it stabalizes and just moves upward. Is there an adjustment to control this somewhere? The machine is in beautiful physical shape - it looks unused. There's even a sticker still on it that is stuck to the expansion port's trapdoor and sticks also to the machine's case. And the warrantee seal hasn't been broken yet. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From archive at navix.net Tue Jun 9 14:11:52 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: old laptop BIOS??? Message-ID: <357D88F7.7DFF8338@navix.net> Does anyone know how to access the BIOS of an old Toshiba 2200sx laptop? It is Pheonix, but I can't tell what version, etc., as it flashes on screen very fast. I need to set up the COM ports of this thing and can't seem to figure it out. Any help would be greatly appreciated! CORD COSLOR -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From van at wired.com Tue Jun 9 14:15:57 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: JCPenney Video Sports?? In-Reply-To: <357D8800.FC9AF53B@navix.net> Message-ID: "Video Sports" was the name of the Sears Atari Pong clones, not JC Penney. Does it say JC Penney anywhere on the console? van >Does any of you have any details on the JC Penney Video Sports >pong-type console system? I just picked one up, and am curious for >more details on the unit, such as production numbers, current rarity >(or lack thereof), and other interesting things about it.... if there >are any. > >Are these things as common as a house-fly? > >Thanks, > >CORD COSLOR > >-- > ____________________________________________________________ >| Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ >| Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | >| on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | >| http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | >|------------------------------------------------------------| | >| PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | >|------------------------------------------------------------| | >| If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | >| chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | >|____________________________________________________________| | >\_____________________________________________________________\| ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jun 9 10:06:35 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: old laptop BIOS??? In-Reply-To: <357D88F7.7DFF8338@navix.net> Message-ID: <199806091903.PAA06553@mail.cgocable.net> > Does anyone know how to access the BIOS of an old Toshiba 2200sx > laptop? It is Pheonix, but I can't tell what version, etc., as it > flashes on screen very fast. I need to set up the COM ports of this > thing and can't seem to figure it out. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated! > > CORD COSLOR Cord, Dunno, but i know for sure, Toshiba often use external setup program. Try booting the computer iwth floppy disk containing that program and run it. That's makes this bit harder because these programs are not that easy to get besides the Toshiba's website. Which is a black mark against Toshiba. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 9 14:26:16 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos Message-ID: <199806091926.AA02828@world.std.com> Message-ID: <357D8C89.692F94E7@halcyon.com> To setup the BIOS of the T2200SX, you need the program TEST3.EXE. You can get it at the Toshiba Web site: http://www.toshbia.com. I'll try attaching it to separate mail to Cord. Dave jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > Does anyone know how to access the BIOS of an old Toshiba 2200sx > > laptop? It is Pheonix, but I can't tell what version, etc., as it > > flashes on screen very fast. I need to set up the COM ports of this > > thing and can't seem to figure it out. > > > > Any help would be greatly appreciated! > > > > CORD COSLOR > > Cord, > > Dunno, but i know for sure, Toshiba often use external setup program. > Try booting the computer iwth floppy disk containing that program and > run it. > > That's makes this bit harder because these programs are not that easy > to get besides the Toshiba's website. Which is a black mark against > Toshiba. > > Jason D. > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca > Pero, Jason D. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Jun 9 14:50:46 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: <199806091926.AA02828@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < > > Yes in or on the monitor. Oh crap, does the Model I >require< a special Tandy monitor? I hooked it up first to my Commodore 1802, then to my //c monitor. Does the Model I output a different frequency? All I've got is the Model I and its power brick. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 9 14:39:17 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Wang PC-002 ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980609143917.3a27c5c6@intellistar.net> At 02:18 PM 6/9/98 -0400, Doug wrote: > >Greetings, > >> >Does anyone know what this thing is? > > No, but there's a bunch of manuals for a Wang PC in a trift store here. Let me know if you want them. I'll check the model number on them the next time I'm there. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 9 14:40:36 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Wang PC-002 ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980609144036.540f4cd6@intellistar.net> PS I think there is a Wang keyboard there too. Let me know what kind of connector the PC-002 uses and I'll see if this is the same. Joe From archive at navix.net Tue Jun 9 15:34:00 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: JCPenney Video Sports?? References: Message-ID: <357D9C36.7FFE7C4@navix.net> Van Burnham wrote: > "Video Sports" was the name of the Sears Atari Pong clones, not JC Penney. > Does it say JC Penney anywhere on the console? Van and everyone else: Yeh, that's what i thought too! However, it does say " Video Sports" and underneath it says "JC Penney" CORD > > > van > > >Does any of you have any details on the JC Penney Video Sports > >pong-type console system? I just picked one up, and am curious for > >more details on the unit, such as production numbers, current rarity > >(or lack thereof), and other interesting things about it.... if there > >are any. > > > >Are these things as common as a house-fly? > > > >Thanks, > > > >CORD COSLOR > > > >-- > > ____________________________________________________________ > >| Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ > >| Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | > >| on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | > >| http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | > >|------------------------------------------------------------| | > >| PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | > >|------------------------------------------------------------| | > >| If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | > >| chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | > >|____________________________________________________________| | > >\_____________________________________________________________\| > > ........................................................................ > > @ > / > / Shift Lever > (D)/ > \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === > BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! > - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 > Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection > mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] > ] ]] > 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... > van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com > production manager > wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states > ........................................................................ > for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com > van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Jun 9 15:48:33 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Wang PC-002 ?? Message-ID: <1998Jun09.164714.1767.110088@smtp.itgonline.com> I have a Wang PC-001. It is about half the width, almost 50% higher and 25% longer than the original IBM PC (if memory serves me right.. I'll confirm these dimensions tonight). It has a 5 1/4" half height 20 MB hard drive, presumeably a Seagate ST-220 although I've never popped the cover. Floppy drives I'll check tonight as well, I seem to remember one 5 1/4" half height. The cards in the rear are mounted horizontally as well. One interesting part of this pc is that the monitor has a steel mounting bracket (on one end it holds the monitor, on the other it has a clamp for the edge of a desk) which is angled at 45 degrees so the monitor can be elevated above the user's desk to free a desk of all but the keyboard (with the system unit on the floor). Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Wang PC-002 ?? Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 6/9/98 2:26 PM Greetings, I saw a very large Wang box at a thrift store yesterday, I *think* the little sticker on it said "PC-002". I didn't see the keyboard, but I didn't look. The machine was really big, I think about twice the height of an old IBM-PC and about the same width. It was longer than it was wide. It had two full-height 5.25" floppy drives. >From the back it looked like it had several large horizontally-mounted cards inside, including one with two coaxial cable connectors and another with two female DIN connectors. I would have paid close attention to it had my arms not already been full. I didn't see the keyboard, but it was probably stacked up in the pile with all the normal PC crap keyboards. If I am to go back for it, I'll have to take the car as I doubt I'd be able to survive the walk to the bus while trying to carry that thing. Does anyone know what this thing is? Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Jun09.142634.1767.45789; Tue, 09 Jun 1998 14:26:35 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id LAA07364; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:18:43 -0700 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id LAA72000 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:18:33 -0700 Received: from alcor.concordia.ca (ds_spenc@alcor.Concordia.CA [132.205.7.51]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id LAA15422 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:18:32 -0700 Received: from localhost (ds_spenc@localhost) by alcor.concordia.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17867 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Doug Spence To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Wang PC-002 ?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From pjoules at enterprise.net Tue Jun 9 15:53:42 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Location, Location, Location! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980608084747.00c56a80@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, John Foust wrote: > > It would be MOST helpful if people mentioned the location > (city, state, province, country, etc.) of the equipment > that's about to land in the dumpster. It is not intuitively > obvious to everyone in the world that (423) area code means > Bellevue. > Surely Bellevue is in Manchester and therefore the code is 0161 (or am I in the wrong country ;-) Regards Pete From pjoules at enterprise.net Tue Jun 9 15:49:45 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service In-Reply-To: <199806090003.UAA15727@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > I wrote a program that did a cold boot. I attached it to the > ANSI.SYS driver. I gave this PC to them to fix. > With the older head park routines which simply announced themselves and then parked the heads and halted the machine rather than giving the user the option to press a key to resume, it was quite amusing to put headpark in autoexec.bat and see if someone thought of booting from floppy :) Regards Pete From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 13:48:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <199806090236.AA26030@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 8, 98 10:36:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1523 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/4cadd292/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 13:56:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service In-Reply-To: <199806090236.AA26157@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 8, 98 10:36:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2143 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/794326ef/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 14:24:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <009f01bd937e$0be41020$ef173ccb@mr-ibm> from "Desie Hay" at Jun 9, 98 06:10:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 670 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/20491c32/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 14:39:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980609095733.00904100@pop3.mis.ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jun 9, 98 09:57:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1215 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/ff3c046e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 13:44:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <199806090236.AA25934@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 8, 98 10:36:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 526 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/4bdaad1b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 14:43:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:26 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 9, 98 01:10:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 738 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/42bc761e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 13:41:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service In-Reply-To: <199806090353.XAA05548@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 8, 98 11:56:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 977 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/4b0acfd1/attachment.ksh From erd at infinet.com Tue Jun 9 17:28:55 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Servicet In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 9, 98 07:41:24 pm Message-ID: <199806092228.SAA26718@user2.infinet.com> > > > I add to this tricky problems: > > - Bent pin on VGA monitor plug > At one job, I want back to the stock room to find three monitors that were tagged "BAD (RED|GREEN) GUN". One was repairable by straightening out the bent pin. The other two were too crimped and broke off. Fortunately, we had a pile of (genuinely) dead ones that could be stripped for the cables. This was in Antarctica. Couldn't exactly send out for spares (until sunrise). At that same place, the other techs ooh'ed and aah'ed when I replaced a surface mount chip that drove the parallel port on a Dell 316sx. (When I went to that service call, after half- an-hour of debugging the machine (which still booted and ran), the customer commented, "maybe it won't print because of all the smoke that was coming out of it." I thought he was joking at first. I mean, wouldn't you mention _that_ in the first five minutes of describing the problem? Upon closer examination, I could see the hole in the package. New chip, no problem.) -ethan From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 18:15:31 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service Message-ID: <19980609231531.14346.qmail@hotmail.com> Was the second episode also in Antarctica? Wouldn't there be a reason why the first chip fried? I mean chips don't just evaporate their casings! >> > I add to this tricky problems: >> >> - Bent pin on VGA monitor plug >> > >At one job, I want back to the stock room to find three monitors >that were tagged "BAD (RED|GREEN) GUN". One was repairable by >straightening out the bent pin. The other two were too crimped >and broke off. Fortunately, we had a pile of (genuinely) dead >ones that could be stripped for the cables. This was in Antarctica. >Couldn't exactly send out for spares (until sunrise). > >At that same place, the other techs ooh'ed and aah'ed when I >replaced a surface mount chip that drove the parallel port >on a Dell 316sx. (When I went to that service call, after half- >an-hour of debugging the machine (which still booted and ran), >the customer commented, "maybe it won't print because of all the >smoke that was coming out of it." I thought he was joking at >first. I mean, wouldn't you mention _that_ in the first five >minutes of describing the problem? Upon closer examination, >I could see the hole in the package. New chip, no problem.) > >-ethan > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 17:48:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 9, 98 02:26:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2338 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/54a1aef5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 17:53:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: <199806091926.AA02828@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 9, 98 03:26:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1034 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/fc3a07e2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 17:56:14 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 9, 98 03:50:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/dbf046ca/attachment.ksh From van at wired.com Tue Jun 9 18:47:34 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Portables In-Reply-To: <19980609231531.14346.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all... Does anyone have insight into a portable system called "the Husky"? My curiosity is piqued... Best regards, van ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jun 9 18:52:43 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Portables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Van Burnham wrote: > Does anyone have insight into a portable system called "the Husky"? Husky makes ruggedized pen-based machines. Non-classic, AFAIK. -- Doug From van at wired.com Tue Jun 9 19:15:20 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Portables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought that the Husky systems were first developed in 1981? Doesn't that count as "classic"... van >On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Van Burnham wrote: > >> Does anyone have insight into a portable system called "the Husky"? > >Husky makes ruggedized pen-based machines. Non-classic, AFAIK. > >-- Doug ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From kroma at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 9 19:04:20 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: old sound driver? Message-ID: <00f201bd9403$521284c0$d887440c@kroma-i> >I remember a program, actually a sound driver, that was written for >computers without sound cards. I think it was intended for Windows >3.1 or something like that to allow simple .wav files to be played >--- in lue of a sound card -- simply used the internal pc speaker. > Go to http://sunsite.unc.edu/~boutell/faq/winsound.htm Ignore the stuff about Mosaic. -- Kirk From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 9 19:01:05 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: T2200sx setup bios problem Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980609190105.006c9f58@pop3.concentric.net> While holding down the Esc key turn the machine and setup routine will come up. From manney at lrbcg.com Tue Jun 9 19:05:57 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Help on Grid Laptop Message-ID: <01bd9403$8b7ed600$0b28a2ce@laptop> I have a Grid 386 SX laptop which will not boot from a floppy (although the floppy does work.) It's got a Phoenix BIOS, although the usual Ctrl-Alt-Esc and Ctrl-Alt-S don't bring up a setup program. Was there a setup program? How do I get into it? Thanks, manney@lrbcg.com "Un sot trouve toujours un plus sot qui l'admire." From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jun 9 19:18:23 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <50e0d799.357dd0d0@aol.com> In a message dated 98-06-09 13:44:45 EDT, Paul E. Coad put forth: << ARDI has a mac emulator (Executor). From their web page: >> yes, my brother gave me a cd with something called executor2 and that's what it is; a mac emulator. it doesnt support anything over system7 and has certain problems with sound but seems to work just fine on my machine. unfortunately, im having some problems trying to unstuff mac files from disk, evidently because of the mac's forked files. david From djenner at halcyon.com Tue Jun 9 19:45:14 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: T2200sx setup bios problem References: <3.0.3.32.19980609190105.006c9f58@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <357DD71A.7D70B2D4@halcyon.com> Toshiba says this should work, but I could never get it to work on the machine I had. The TEST3.EXE program worked for sure. Dave John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > While holding down the Esc key turn the machine and setup routine will come > up. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Jun 9 19:46:58 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Spotted FS: CRAY Y-MP/EL94 Model 250 Message-ID: <35afd747.968082659@hoser> Anybody wanna go Dutch? ;-) >Path: news.inetnebr.com!newsfeed.inetnebr.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.enteract.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!novia!news.arc.nasa.gov!tulane.edu!not-for-mail >From: "Rich Hart" >Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.other.systems >Subject: FS: CRAY Y-MP/EL94 Model 250 >Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:38:32 -0500 >Organization: Tulane University >Lines: 17 >Message-ID: <6lk6g9$di6$1@rs10.tcs.tulane.edu> >NNTP-Posting-Host: knochen.bmen.tulane.edu >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) >Xref: news.inetnebr.com misc.forsale.computers.other.systems:37566 > >For sale: CRAY Y-MP/EL 94 Model 250 computer, dual processors, 256 MBytes RAM, >21 G-bytes disk, DDS-2 DAT. > >Purchased in summer 1994 for $100,000. Currently maintained on service >contract, with UNICOS installed. > >Will consider offers of $15,000 or more (plus you pay shipping)? Please e-mail, >if interested. > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Richard T. Hart, Ph.D. e-mail: Rich.Hart@tulane.edu >Professor and Chair phone: (504)865-5889 >Department of Biomedical Engineering fax: (504)862-8779 >Boggs Center, Suite 500 http://www.bmen.tulane.edu/ >Tulane University >New Orleans, Louisiana 70118 > -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Jun 9 19:57:10 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35b0d847.968338096@hoser> I used to use my TRS-80 Model 1 with standard composite video monitors all the time. The two pins on either side of the center pin of the jack are ground and 75-ohm composite video out. Pin 5 is ground, and pin 4 is video. Don't short pin 1; it's +5v. Front view of jack: v 3 o o 1 5 o o 4 o 2 On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:50:46 -0400 (EDT), >Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca wrote: > >Oh crap, does the Model I >require< a special Tandy monitor? I hooked it >up first to my Commodore 1802, then to my //c monitor. > >Does the Model I output a different frequency? > >All I've got is the Model I and its power brick. -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jun 9 20:22:16 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Portables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Van Burnham wrote: > I thought that the Husky systems were first developed in 1981? > > Doesn't that count as "classic"... Hmm, I've never seen one of their old machines before, but you're right: http://www.husky.co.uk/uk/company/history.html << 1981. Responding to a request from Severn Trent Water, DVW designed and manufactured the first rugged handheld computer - the Husky, dramatically featured on the BBC TV programme 'Tomorrow's World'. This caught the attention of the UK Ministry of Defence, who subsequently awarded DVW a contract to supply the MOD with rugged handheld computers as part of the Rapier missile project. >> Do you have one of the older models? -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jun 9 20:25:38 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Help on Grid Laptop In-Reply-To: <01bd9403$8b7ed600$0b28a2ce@laptop> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, PG Manney wrote: > I have a Grid 386 SX laptop which will not boot from a floppy (although the > floppy does work.) Most (all?) GRiDs allow the boot device to be selected by holding down a key at boot time: 'F': floppy 'H': hard disk 'B': bubble disk 'R': ROM disk etc. > It's got a Phoenix BIOS, although the usual Ctrl-Alt-Esc and Ctrl-Alt-S > don't bring up a setup program. > > Was there a setup program? How do I get into it? Is it a 1550SX? Try ftp://ftp.ast.com/GRID/conf1550.exe -- Doug From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 20:38:12 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <19980610013812.3485.qmail@hotmail.com> Executor is just like all other "mostly compatible" things. It works perfectly with everything but that which you want it to run. I've run Lemmings, Netscape (w/ screwed up colors), and that's about it. Nothing much will really run, and you can be assured that you won't be able to install a program because there is no system folder (the least of the install problems; the most is missing system calls). >problems with sound but seems to work just fine on my machine. unfortunately, >im having some problems trying to unstuff mac files from disk, evidently >because of the mac's forked files. I was wondering what the point was of the resource fork, who invented it, how it's better than a simple bunch of characters, and why they didn't think that 20 years later we'd be ripping our hair out because of it... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From william at ans.net Tue Jun 9 20:40:52 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Spotted FS: CRAY Y-MP/EL94 Model 250 In-Reply-To: <35afd747.968082659@hoser> Message-ID: > >For sale: CRAY Y-MP/EL 94 Model 250 computer, dual processors, 256 MBytes RAM, > >21 G-bytes disk, DDS-2 DAT. > > > >Purchased in summer 1994 for $100,000. Currently maintained on service > >contract, with UNICOS installed. > > > >Will consider offers of $15,000 or more (plus you pay shipping)? Please e-mail, > >if interested. Ick! $15,000 is just too much for this machine. The ELs really are slow things (a couple hundered MFLOPs tops, and I am sure it does not do well on the LINPACK scale either) - but then again if you want a Cray that can be run in your house (no joke), an EL or J series Y-MP is just the thing. But I wanna Cray...any Cray... William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 9 20:02:57 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Basic PDP-11ish questions Message-ID: OK, to aviod confusion the first system in question is a SMS-1000, with a PDP-11/73 board, 2MW RAM, RL02 Controller (DL), TK50 Controller (MU), Dilog DQ606 Floppy Controller (DY). The SMS-1000 has an internal Floppy and HD, which it thinks are a RD51 (DU) and RX50 (DU). The boot ROMs support DU (DSA, the HD and Floppy), MU (TK50), and MS (TS). I'm able to boot off of RL02 by entering in the bootstrap from ODT. I've got RSX-11M and XXDP RL02 packs, and can boot from either. I've managed to make a bootable XXDP floppy diskette. I can boot the machine directly off of the XXDP floppy on power up. I can boot the XXDP floppy from the XXDP RL02 pack, and then boot the XXDP RL02 pack from floppy. However, if I power up and boot from floppy, I can not boot the XXDP RL02 pack. Is this because the Boot ROMs don't support RL02's? Does anyone have any instructions for a Dilog DQ606 controller? I gather that it can be configured to act as several different floppy drives. The drives that came with it are labeled as being a RX-50 and a RX-33, yet RSX-11M sees both as RX-02's. I'd like to get these changed back to RX-50 and RX-33. What does the device name 'MS', device type 'TS' stand for? My guess is a 9-Track tape drive. I've also got a PDP-11/44 that I'm slowly working on restoring. It's in two racks, one has a pair of RL02's which have been cleaned up. The other has the CPU, 2 RX-02's, 2 TU-58's, and a battery backup. In looking at the CPU, it looks as if it has a LED for the battery backup. Does that battery need to be in the system? I would just as soon remove them and not have anything to do with them since they are old lead-acid batteries, and I'm not very fond of such things (spent 3 1/2 years of my time in the Navy working on UPS's). Is there any reason that I can't just plug the whole thing into a power source outside of the rack. I'm asking since for all I know the battery and powersuppy in the bottom of the rack are some kind of power conditioning circuit. Also does anyone have any recommendations on how to go about testing out the power supplies on the 11/44? I'd just as soon not blow anything up. I have powered up the RL02's, but that is all so far. I'm waiting to test the power supplies before I get the remaining boards that I need for the system. Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 9 22:35:15 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Basic PDP-11ish questions In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 9, 98 06:02:57 pm Message-ID: <9806100235.AA13043@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2216 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980609/fc912c37/attachment.ksh From archive at navix.net Wed Jun 10 00:00:41 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: THANKS!!! Message-ID: <357E12F8.AE79666B@navix.net> This message is to the many, many people that responded with their help for two questions I had posted earlier. One was a questions about a PC speaker sound driver for W3.1, and the other was a question about setting up the BIOS on my T2200sx laptop. The response was overwhelming, and I have been e-mailed three different sound drivers, and got two different successful ways to setup my BIOS!!! Thank you all very much, and I apologize to those it doesn't concern, but I just wanted to reiterate that this list is full of help for those that don't know all the answers! :-) Sincerely, CORD COSLOR -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 10 00:00:00 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980609164125.3d571b60@ricochet.net> At 12:38 AM 6/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >> is given in edition 1, as oppose to just saying they exist. I'd love to >> get a list of old Mac clones. A (very!) non-portable Mac "Clone" that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the Dash '030 from (iirc) 68000 systems. It's an actual Mac II-type motherboard in a huge server case. Ports were accessable on the top, and has about 6 or 7 drive bays up front. The front covers the drives and can be locked closed. Huge P/S, with filter on the back. Very serious systems. I've got two, actually. (Someday, Real Soon Now, I'll get one of 'em set up as a server for Rachel's classroom.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 10 00:00:04 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980609170311.3d575bee@ricochet.net> At 12:25 PM 6/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Outbound > >Anybody have any of these? Any experience with them. I would love some >further information. I have an Outbound. Fantastic machine. The pointing device alone is worth getting the computer for. (Imagine a pencil tucked up against the bottom edge of your keyboard. Roll it towards the screen and away to move the cursor up and down. Slide it left and right to move the cursor left and right. Wonderful!) Unfortunately, mine has a problem with the screen; if anyone has any spare parts, or knows anything about them, I'd love to hear from you! (I'd really like to put this machine to use!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 10 00:00:09 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: old laptop BIOS??? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980609173006.3d575bee@ricochet.net> At 03:06 PM 6/9/98 +0000, you wrote: > >> Does anyone know how to access the BIOS of an old Toshiba 2200sx >> laptop? It is Pheonix, but I can't tell what version, etc., as it >That's makes this bit harder because these programs are not that easy >to get besides the Toshiba's website. Which is a black mark against I've found Toshiba's on-line support for their older machines to be excellent; I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that the setup pgm was available on their web site. Definitely worth checking out. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 10 00:00:13 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980609174331.3d571fa2@ricochet.net> At 04:15 PM 6/9/98 PDT, you wrote: >> - Bent pin on VGA monitor plug > >At one job, I want back to the stock room to find three monitors >that were tagged "BAD (RED|GREEN) GUN". One was repairable by >straightening out the bent pin. The other two were too crimped >and broke off. Fortunately, we had a pile of (genuinely) dead At a user group meeting last Saturday, I showed up to find that the monitor I had brought had a bent pin. It promptly broke off when I tried to straighten it. So I pulled one of those hotel sewing kits out of the car and one of the other guys slipped a needle into the hollow pin, snipped to length, and it worked fine for the whole meeting (and probably is still working fine, only he took it home to replace the connector.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 10 00:20:29 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980609222247.3aaf9d86@ricochet.net> I picked up a copy of Mobile Computing and the editorial starts off by mentioning several portable computers that were significant in the history of mobile computing. Included in the list was the Model 100 (of course) and the IBM 700 (I forget the others.) The question I have is what was significant about the IBM 700? If it's the I think it is, it had an external fdd, but it certainly wasn't the first (heck, the M100 had that.) So, does anyone know what the ed might have been talking about? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 10 00:22:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Basic PDP-11ish questions In-Reply-To: <9806100235.AA13043@alph02.triumf.ca> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 9, 98 06:02:57 pm Message-ID: >> I've got RSX-11M and XXDP RL02 packs, and can boot from either. I've >> managed to make a bootable XXDP floppy diskette. I can boot the machine >> directly off of the XXDP floppy on power up. I can boot the XXDP floppy >> from the XXDP RL02 pack, and then boot the XXDP RL02 pack from floppy. >> However, if I power up and boot from floppy, I can not boot the XXDP RL02 >> pack. Is this because the Boot ROMs don't support RL02's? > >Which version XXDP+ are you using? And I thought I'd managed every detail :^) ver 2.5 >> Does anyone have any instructions for a Dilog DQ606 controller? I gather >> that it can be configured to act as several different floppy drives. The >> drives that came with it are labeled as being a RX-50 and a RX-33, yet >> RSX-11M sees both as RX-02's. I'd like to get these changed back to RX-50 >> and RX-33. > >I don't have the details, but every DQ606 I've ever seen is MSCP >emulation (DU: devices). I'm surprised myself by the fact that it >could somehow be switched to RX02 mode. Is it really responding >at the standard RX02 CSR of 17777170? Hmmm, this is interesting, I just booted off of a RSX11M tape (the only way I could think of to get the tape, and it reports that there are RL, MU, and _DU_ devices. No mention of DY devices. Now to boot the RSX11M pack.... Ummm, never mind. Doesn't look like I'll be using that controller in a SMS-1000 anymore. My guess is that it and the built in controller are conflicting and the built in won (this _might_ explain a few of my other problems). I took a closer look at the output of 'show dev' and realized it's saying it's got the potential for a couple of RX02's, not that it has them. Didn't realize that was what I was looking at before. So is there anything else the DQ606 can do, besides act as a DU floppy controller? Does it have any boot ROMs of its own? >> I've also got a PDP-11/44 that I'm slowly working on restoring. It's in >> two racks, one has a pair of RL02's which have been cleaned up. The other >> has the CPU, 2 RX-02's, 2 TU-58's, and a battery backup. In looking at the >> CPU, it looks as if it has a LED for the battery backup. > >The DEC battery backup systems that I own for the 11/44 don't have >a LED anywhere on them. Where is this LED? What's the "Hnnnn" number >on the battery backup box you have? The LED isn't on the battery pack, it's on the front panel of the CPU (at least there appears to be one there). It's a 'H7750 Battery Backup', actually H7750 AA. >No. The 11/44 will run just fine without it. GOOD! Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 10 00:28:45 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980609222247.3aaf9d86@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Was this one of the ones from about '92? If it's the one I'm thinking of, it would be the first with the 'pencil' pointer in the keyboard. For all I know, the first built in pointer (I'd not seen any prior to this). Of course I really remember it running AIX and OS/2 at the same time (I hate AIX, but sure wish they had released that product). Zane >I picked up a copy of Mobile Computing and the editorial starts off by >mentioning several portable computers that were significant in the history >of mobile computing. Included in the list was the Model 100 (of course) >and the IBM 700 (I forget the others.) > >The question I have is what was significant about the IBM 700? If it's the >I think it is, it had an external fdd, but it certainly wasn't the first >(heck, the M100 had that.) > >So, does anyone know what the ed might have been talking about? > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 10 00:42:03 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980609222247.3aaf9d86@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > The question I have is what was significant about the IBM 700? If it's the > I think it is, it had an external fdd, but it certainly wasn't the first > (heck, the M100 had that.) > > So, does anyone know what the ed might have been talking about? Which IBM 700? I think the 700T was IBM's first pen-based slate. Wasn't the 700/700C the first ThinkPad? I guess that was significant to IBM. -- Doug From erd at infinet.com Wed Jun 10 00:56:06 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Clueless Field Service In-Reply-To: <19980609231531.14346.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 9, 98 04:15:31 pm Message-ID: <199806100556.BAA01350@user2.infinet.com> > > Was the second episode also in Antarctica? Wouldn't there be a reason > why the first chip fried? I mean chips don't just evaporate their > casings! You haven't seen how dirty the power is down there. Officially, the power grid ground was a busted tractor on the end of a cable, pushed into the bay. Unofficially, I was told that the station's phone system acted as a sort of ground web. At McMurdo, there are several diesel generators, most of which were working at any given moment. It took four turning in the summer when the demand was highest. We used to get frequent brownouts in the summer time with the occasional station-wide blackout. Yes, there are more lights on in the winter, but in the summer, all the buildings are open and all have furnace blowers and computers and office lights, etc. Stuff would break mysteriously; UPSes would mysteriously melt down. At the South Pole station, the clocks didn't keep proper time because the frequency wasn't exactly 60 Hz. Be glad for your local power grid. We had no such luxury. ObClassicCmp: Until 1996, the primary and secondary DNS servers at McMurdo were a pair of uVAXen running VMS. They had the advantage of being unlikely to be cracked. It was their only advantage. :-) From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 10 00:58:22 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Was this one of the ones from about '92? If it's the one I'm thinking of, > it would be the first with the 'pencil' pointer in the keyboard. For all I > know, the first built in pointer (I'd not seen any prior to this). Of > course I really remember it running AIX and OS/2 at the same time (I hate > AIX, but sure wish they had released that product). That must be it. The TP700 was the first with the TrackPoint (eraser head). The first DOS laptop with a pointing device was the GRiD 1550SX, and it had an isopoint (tootsie-roll) similar to the Outbound Mac-clone. -- Doug From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 10 06:11:19 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? Message-ID: <76a95340.357e69d8@aol.com> In a message dated 98-06-10 05:56:42 EDT, you write: << > Was this one of the ones from about '92? If it's the one I'm thinking of, > it would be the first with the 'pencil' pointer in the keyboard. For all I > know, the first built in pointer (I'd not seen any prior to this). Of > course I really remember it running AIX and OS/2 at the same time (I hate > AIX, but sure wish they had released that product). >> the thinkpad 700 and 720 were both ps2 style laptops from ibm, but they werent the first ones. i believe the thinkpad 300 predated it. there was also the N40 and L40 ibm laptops, but they were not thinkpads. all thinkpads have used the trackpoint. david From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jun 10 03:14:05 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? In-Reply-To: <76a95340.357e69d8@aol.com> Message-ID: <199806101211.IAA03399@mail.cgocable.net> > In a message dated 98-06-10 05:56:42 EDT, you write: > > << > Was this one of the ones from about '92? If it's the one I'm thinking > of, > > it would be the first with the 'pencil' pointer in the keyboard. For all I > > know, the first built in pointer (I'd not seen any prior to this). Of > > course I really remember it running AIX and OS/2 at the same time (I hate > > AIX, but sure wish they had released that product). >> > > the thinkpad 700 and 720 were both ps2 style laptops from ibm, but they werent > the first ones. i believe the thinkpad 300 predated it. there was also the N40 > and L40 ibm laptops, but they were not thinkpads. all thinkpads have used the > trackpoint. > > david Whatever 700 was, what about this thinkpad that came out with largest (appox 10.4") active matix color displays especially 700C? At that time, one other Compaq and others were selling early active matix portables. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jun 10 03:27:17 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: old laptop BIOS??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980609173006.3d575bee@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199806101223.IAA06159@mail.cgocable.net> > At 03:06 PM 6/9/98 +0000, you wrote: > > > >> Does anyone know how to access the BIOS of an old Toshiba 2200sx > >> laptop? It is Pheonix, but I can't tell what version, etc., as it > > >That's makes this bit harder because these programs are not that easy > >to get besides the Toshiba's website. Which is a black mark against > > I've found Toshiba's on-line support for their older machines to be > excellent; I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that the setup pgm was > available on their web site. Definitely worth checking out. True, I know but that is very flimsy. Toshiba can decide to pull those files off, never know. Also these early laptops and notebooks had very limited bios hd spec selections to 3 or 5 types until very recently have flexiable bios. I think these current notebooks from there still usually needs external program setup. Many notebook makers had moved on to internal setup programs long ago with generous amount of hd specs and at least one user defineable hd spec. Toshiba moved to this area very late about few years ago but by that time their support and quality have gone down so it's moot to look at Toshiba for next portable buying, look everywhere else. IBM, Gateway what you have that have long term service warrenty but pass the Toshiba. (Toshiba is queer again won't support their even on non warrentied Librettos series, these must be sent to Toshiba for anything needing fixing.) I have not yet seen and handled a Libretto series but I hear they are wonderful machines but lets see about that when price is very affordable at least ~400 for filled out used Libretto 70CT. Rambling stops... Anyway back to oldies for now. :) Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From tomowad at earthlink.net Wed Jun 10 09:14:33 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <199806101414.HAA08152@germany.it.earthlink.net> >A (very!) non-portable Mac "Clone" that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the >Dash '030 from (iirc) 68000 systems. It's an actual Mac II-type >motherboard in a huge server case. Ports were accessable on the top, and >has about 6 or 7 drive bays up front. The front covers the drives and can >be locked closed. Huge P/S, with filter on the back. Very serious >systems. I've got two, actually. Does "Mac II-type motherboard" mean its a genuine Apple motherboard, or do you just mean its similiar to the Mac II motherboards? Tom Owad From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 10 09:29:00 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <19980610013812.3485.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980610092900.00b91c60@pc> At 06:38 PM 6/9/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: > >I was wondering what the point was of the resource fork, who invented >it, how it's better than a simple bunch of characters, and why they >didn't think that 20 years later we'd be ripping our hair out because of it... Aye, now there's a good question. File formats are my life, or at least this first half of my life, so that question interests me. Even the Mac or its apps seemed to be confused about the nature of what should be in the resource fork - some apps stored all their data there, using it as a sort of mini-database of tagged chunks of data. If there's anything classic about today's computers, it's the nearly universal recognition that a file's a file. Departures from this are interesting but rare. The other non-file info such as the filename itself, the date stamp, attributes, etc. are treated in an incidental fashion. The Amiga file system, for example, had a "file comment" of about 80 characters of extra text to describe the file that wasn't always preserved. This may have been inherited from Tripos. And then there's the way something like the effects of Radix-50 (packing three chars into two bytes) has percolated through the years as three-character filename extensions from RT-11 (or earlier?) to CP/M to DOS and Windows, which are overused and abused in many ways. One of my latest three-great-ideas-before-breakfast ideas is to write a program for Windows that sniffs and identifies files in the manner of Unix's "file". That's the problem with files as files: you can easily lose track of what's in them, especially if you lose that three-char extension, or it gets wrapped in an archive format or attachment, etc. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From erd at infinet.com Wed Jun 10 09:38:05 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980610092900.00b91c60@pc> from "John Foust" at Jun 10, 98 09:29:00 am Message-ID: <199806101438.KAA05251@user2.infinet.com> > > At 06:38 PM 6/9/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: > The other non-file info such as the filename itself, the date stamp, > attributes, etc. are treated in an incidental fashion. The Amiga > file system, for example, had a "file comment" of about 80 characters > of extra text to describe the file that wasn't always preserved. > This may have been inherited from Tripos. AFAIK, this is the case. The same with the ? and # as wild card characters (instead of *, you use #? to indicate an unknown number of "?") > And then there's the way something like the effects of Radix-50 > (packing three chars into two bytes) has percolated through the > years as three-character filename extensions from RT-11 (or > earlier?) to CP/M to DOS and Windows, which are overused and > abused in many ways. OS/8 uses 6.2 filenames, packed as two six-bit ASCII values per 12-bit word. I do not know if ODS-1 (RSX FILES-11) or the RSTS filesystems precede RT-11, but if I had to guess, I would say yes. IIRC, both use 9.3. -ethan From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 10 10:10:05 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Files as files Message-ID: <199806101510.AA19261@world.std.com> ><9.3. > >Did you mean 8.3? RT-11, RSTS and RSX-11 were 8.3 as was early VMS and >unice. I can't speak for RSTS and RSX-11, but I _know_ early VMS was 9.3; that is, as long as VMS 3.4 is counted as early. RT-11 is 6.3; since you can cram three characters into a word using Radix-50, a filename in RT-11 takes three words. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 10 10:45:05 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <01IY2EBBW676ADLYF4@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980610104505.00bce250@pc> At 09:21 AM 6/10/98 -0700, Roger Ivie wrote: > >I can't speak for RSTS and RSX-11, but I _know_ early VMS was 9.3; that is, >as long as VMS 3.4 is counted as early. I'll add DEC's tendency to "version number" files as another item associated with a file that's not in the file itself. The CDROM standard filesystem ISO-9660 included these version numbers although most contemporary computers ignore it. ISO-9660 has a "level 1" that allows 8.3 names, while level 2 limits names to 31 characters. Apple extended ISO-9660 to include other Mac-specific info such as icon position and window layout - again, more info outside the file. I think this discussion is quite relevant to historic preservation. To me, it says the safest archiving mechanism is to preserve an entire filesystem, as opposed to methods like 'tar' or Zip that won't preserve all file details. - John From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 10 11:33:19 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: Files as files" (Jun 10, 11:10) References: <199806101510.AA19261@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9806101733.ZM12392@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 10, 11:10, Allison J Parent wrote: > <9.3. > > Did you mean 8.3? RT-11, RSTS and RSX-11 were 8.3 as was early VMS and > unice. RT-11 has always been 6.3, RSX-11 is 9.3 IIRC, and UNIX doesn't have any fixed format - though early versions had a fairly small limit on name length (12 chars?). All versions of UNIX allow as many dots as you can fit in the length. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 10 12:10:25 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: FA: Various systems In-Reply-To: <9806101733.ZM12392@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> References: <199806101510.AA19261@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980610131025.0080a3a0@netpath.net> Some items on auction: Apple Portable, currently at $53.00 http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201635376 TI-99/4A, complete with about 15 games http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201639758 Also, looking for cheap Type I PCMCIA/JEIDA RAM cards. 1mb-4mb range. ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 10 12:37:54 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: FA: Various systems Message-ID: <3dc15e16.357ec475@aol.com> This is NOT a flame, but i'm just wondering the point of posting items that have been put up for sale on ebay, et al. all that means is every item will already be overbid on for an insane price. it is my opinion that if anything is announced as being for sale, the subscribers to this group should get first crack. david In a message dated 98-06-10 13:21:21 EDT, you write: << Some items on auction: Apple Portable, currently at $53.00 http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201635376 TI-99/4A, complete with about 15 games http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201639758 Also, looking for cheap Type I PCMCIA/JEIDA RAM cards. 1mb-4mb range. >> From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 10 14:31:15 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Basic PDP-11ish questions In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 9, 98 10:22:50 pm Message-ID: <9806101831.AA12716@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1770 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980610/1ef45f08/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 10 13:40:38 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: FA: Various systems In-Reply-To: <3dc15e16.357ec475@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980610134038.48978c42@intellistar.net> At 01:37 PM 6/10/98 EDT, you wrote: >This is NOT a flame, but i'm just wondering the point of posting items that >have been put up for sale on ebay, et al. all that means is every item will >already be overbid on for an insane price. it is my opinion that if anything >is announced as being for sale, the subscribers to this group should get first >crack. > >david I agree. This list shouldn't be an advertising place for E-bay. If you're going to list it here then sell it here. If you're going to sell it on E-bay then don't advertise it here. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 10 14:08:48 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: IBM 5363 II Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980610140848.4897bbd6@intellistar.net> OK what is an IBM 5363 II? I found one in a trift store. I've been told that the 5363 was a S/36 that designed to be a very low cost entry into the 3X architecture and that it runs an operating systems called SSP. So what is a 5363 II and what OS does it use? Is it worth picking up and saving? Also does anyone know how to get around the password protection? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 10 14:18:58 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: Wang PC-002 ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980610141858.48971fb0@intellistar.net> After reading Doug's message, I checked at my favorite trift store and found a pile of manuals for a Wang PC. NOT Personal Computer but Professional computer! The manuals seem to be sort of generic to all Wang PCs. None of the manuals mentioned a model number of the computers themselves but they did list the model numbers of the various options and accessories. I also found three Wang computers. They were under a pile of stuff so I didn't get a good luck at them and I don't know if they were Wang PCs or a different model but they looked like the PCs. Two looked like 8 slot electronics units (that's what Wang calls them) and the other looked like a 5 slot unit. Joe At 02:18 PM 6/9/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Greetings, > >I saw a very large Wang box at a thrift store yesterday, I *think* the >little sticker on it said "PC-002". I didn't see the keyboard, but I >didn't look. > >The machine was really big, I think about twice the height of an old >IBM-PC and about the same width. It was longer than it was wide. > >It had two full-height 5.25" floppy drives. > >>From the back it looked like it had several large horizontally-mounted >cards inside, including one with two coaxial cable connectors and another >with two female DIN connectors. > >I would have paid close attention to it had my arms not already been full. > >I didn't see the keyboard, but it was probably stacked up in the pile with >all the normal PC crap keyboards. > >If I am to go back for it, I'll have to take the car as I doubt I'd be >able to survive the walk to the bus while trying to carry that thing. > >Does anyone know what this thing is? > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > > From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 10 14:48:47 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: FA: Various systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980610134038.48978c42@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Joe wrote: > I agree. This list shouldn't be an advertising place for E-bay. If > you're going to list it here then sell it here. If you're going to sell it > on E-bay then don't advertise it here. Actually, the ad was for auctions at Haggle Online, http://www.haggle.com. But I don't see any problems with people listing classic stuff for sale here no matter what the sales vehicle is. If I find the price too high, I don't bid/buy, but if somebody is selling an Altair with an Apple 1 motherboard, I at least want to know about it. -- Doug From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jun 10 16:31:29 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:27 2005 Subject: IBM 5363 II In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980610140848.4897bbd6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <13362763362.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [What's 5363?] That's an IBM System/36. Once you get in, it's a nice menuized thing, easy to deal with. I have one, and I'm getting another. SSP means System Support Product. I guess it's the O/S... You will need a twinax terminal to use it. They're neat to have. Especially if you get manuals and the SSP floppies... As for the password, it took me 3 tries to get into mine. Username BACKUP, password was PASS. Nice. It can be reloaded from the SSP disks (I don't have these. Anyone got images?) to bypass the passwords... Also, see if you can get the key that goes in the frontpanel. It's not necessary to run the machine, but it lets you put the machine in Service mode and you can make it do fun things like dump core. I have bypassed this on my box by wiring the key permanently in the SERVICE position. If you get it, I'd be glad to help run it... ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:48:09 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <19980610214809.1811.qmail@hotmail.com> Is this device better than a mouse, in your opinion? Is it an ADB device? >At 12:25 PM 6/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >>>Outbound >> >>Anybody have any of these? Any experience with them. I would love some >>further information. > >I have an Outbound. Fantastic machine. The pointing device alone is worth >getting the computer for. (Imagine a pencil tucked up against the bottom >edge of your keyboard. Roll it towards the screen and away to move the >cursor up and down. Slide it left and right to move the cursor left and >right. Wonderful!) Unfortunately, mine has a problem with the screen; if >anyone has any spare parts, or knows anything about them, I'd love to hear >from you! (I'd really like to put this machine to use!) > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 10 12:56:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Basic PDP-11ish questions In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 9, 98 06:02:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3890 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980610/f35d96ea/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:56:40 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Files as files Message-ID: <19980610215640.14257.qmail@hotmail.com> How do UNIX files work? Is there a header of some sort? BTW, I think it's an incredible pain that the Mac has no built in way to change file types. If they get lost, I have to used DiskEdit or some such thing to restore them. > >Even the Mac or its apps seemed to be confused about the nature of >what should be in the resource fork - some apps stored all their >data there, using it as a sort of mini-database of tagged chunks >of data. If there's anything classic about today's computers, >it's the nearly universal recognition that a file's a file. >Departures from this are interesting but rare. > >The other non-file info such as the filename itself, the date stamp, >attributes, etc. are treated in an incidental fashion. The Amiga >file system, for example, had a "file comment" of about 80 characters >of extra text to describe the file that wasn't always preserved. >This may have been inherited from Tripos. > >And then there's the way something like the effects of Radix-50 >(packing three chars into two bytes) has percolated through the >years as three-character filename extensions from RT-11 (or >earlier?) to CP/M to DOS and Windows, which are overused and >abused in many ways. > >One of my latest three-great-ideas-before-breakfast ideas is >to write a program for Windows that sniffs and identifies files >in the manner of Unix's "file". That's the problem with files as >files: you can easily lose track of what's in them, especially >if you lose that three-char extension, or it gets wrapped in >an archive format or attachment, etc. > >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 10 17:47:31 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Microsoft's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <19980610215640.14257.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: REDMOND, Wash. (AP) Microsoft plans to trace its roots, in a new museum. The company says the museum in Redmond, Wash., will also trace the development of computers. Among the exhibits: the first computer for which Paul Allen and Bill Gates wrote a verson of the "BASIC" computer language. From that work, they founded Microsoft. The museum will have more than twice the floor space of any other company's museum, and it'll be invitation-only. Construction begins a year from now. From jruschme at exit109.com Wed Jun 10 18:18:27 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones References: <199806101414.HAA08152@germany.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <357F1443.818A0114@exit109.com> Tom Owad wrote: > > >A (very!) non-portable Mac "Clone" that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the > >Dash '030 from (iirc) 68000 systems. It's an actual Mac II-type > >motherboard in a huge server case. Ports were accessable on the top, and > >has about 6 or 7 drive bays up front. The front covers the drives and can > >be locked closed. Huge P/S, with filter on the back. Very serious > >systems. I've got two, actually. > > Does "Mac II-type motherboard" mean its a genuine Apple motherboard, or > do you just mean its similiar to the Mac II motherboards? It is actually a Mac IIfx (68030, 40mhz) which has been clockchipped to 50mhz. Apparently very popular (at one time, at least) with prepress houses. <<>> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 10 18:47:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Microsoft's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 10, 98 05:47:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 850 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/8181ccd3/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Wed Jun 10 19:13:51 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Microsoft's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > That makes me wonder if they're going to attempt to rewrite history > _again_... After all the Altair (it was the Altair, wasn't it) was hardly > the first microcomputer, and Microsoft BASIC was hardly the first ever BASIC. What corporate museum/book/institution/whatever does NOT try to rewrite history? They all do, to some point. There are lots of reasons why corporations start museums, and sadly the preservation of historic artifacts and ideas is often not on the top of the list. William Donzelli william@ans.net From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 10 19:21:31 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: FA: Various systems Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980610201720.0072d444@netpath.net> Looks like I made a real splash with my first post since resubscribing! In my defense, all I have to say is this: If don't really know the current street value for an item and I want to get rid of it, the best thing to do IS put it on auction and post to similar lists and newsgroups. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. During my hiatus, I was spending alot of time on usenet, a place where this is done all the time. Guess I got a little brainwashed. If it's gonna cause a problem, I won't let it happen again. At 01:37 PM 6/10/98 EDT, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >This is NOT a flame, but i'm just wondering the point of posting items that >have been put up for sale on ebay, et al. all that means is every item will >already be overbid on for an insane price. it is my opinion that if anything >is announced as being for sale, the subscribers to this group should get first >crack. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From peacock at simconv.com Wed Jun 10 19:45:33 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E91C@NT486> >During my hiatus, I was spending alot of time on usenet, >a place where this is done all the time. Well no, it isn't done all the time. At least on the comp.sys, comp.os, and alt.comp newsgroups I follow. It's considered spam and those who do it are invited to go elsewhere. Besides, no point in listing that stuff here if you are also going to ebay, the people here know the relative scarcity/worth of the items. On ebay you can take advantage of ignorance and buying frenzy. Jack Peacock From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 10 19:48:30 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: online support (was: old laptop BIOS???) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980610085624.47d77490@ricochet.net> At 08:27 AM 6/10/98 +0000, you wrote: >> I've found Toshiba's on-line support for their older machines to be >> excellent; I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that the setup pgm was >> available on their web site. Definitely worth checking out. > >True, I know but that is very flimsy. Toshiba can decide to pull >those files off, never know. Yes, Toshiba could yank the files from their site, but unless they went out of business (not likely) why would they? Doesn't cost them anything (coupla meg of hd space) to keep them there. Probably more expensive (people time) to get rid of them. An incredibly valuable marketing tool for very little (or no) cost. Because of what I found there, I would definitely consider a Toshiba laptop. >else. IBM, Gateway what you have that have long term service I wouldn't touch a Gateway computer to save my life. I've got a Gateway 2000 Colorbook that my sister uses. I sent them an e-mail to simply ask what models hard drive they used (I got some empty sleds, and my hard drives didn't fit) and if they still sell sleds/hard drives for it. Was told they didn't know, didn't care, not interested. Suggested a couple of places that sell used GW2K stuff. I have a long-standing loathing of IBM, though I must admit some of their more recent laptops look pretty nice. (Can't stand the damn erasers, though.) They do seem to be pretty good about offering support and info on older machines. Basically, if a company isn't interested in helping out with their older (sometimes much older) machines, I'm not interested in their new machines, simply because whatever I buy today I'll still be using when it qualifies for this list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 10 19:48:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980610090001.47d77a16@ricochet.net> At 10:28 PM 6/9/98 -0700, you wrote: >Was this one of the ones from about '92? If it's the one I'm thinking of, >it would be the first with the 'pencil' pointer in the keyboard. For all I >know, the first built in pointer (I'd not seen any prior to this). Of That's probably it. Though not the first with a built-in pointer. As Doug mentioned, GRiD had one, as did the Mac Portable (1989) and the Atari STacy (year?). Not sure what year the Outbound came out but I'm pretty sure it was pre-thinkpad (maybe '89ish?). --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 10 19:48:41 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980610090101.47d71b8a@ricochet.net> At 12:58 AM 6/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >The first DOS laptop with a pointing device was the GRiD 1550SX, and it >had an isopoint (tootsie-roll) similar to the Outbound Mac-clone. What year did the 1550sx come out? I'll have to watch for it... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 10 19:48:45 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Dash 030 (was: Early Mac Clones) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980610090828.47d7155c@ricochet.net> At 07:14 AM 6/10/98 -0700, you wrote: >Does "Mac II-type motherboard" mean its a genuine Apple motherboard, or >do you just mean its similiar to the Mac II motherboards? Sorry... By "Mac II-type" I meant that size mb. Both that I have use real Apple motherboards. One is (iirc) a Mac IIx, the other is a IIfx. Very nice servers for their time, with great cases. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 10 19:58:24 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing auction items In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E91C@NT486> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Jack Peacock wrote: > Well no, it isn't done all the time. At least on the comp.sys, comp.os, > and alt.comp newsgroups I follow. It's considered spam and those who do > it are invited to go elsewhere. Besides, no point in listing that stuff > here if you are also going to ebay, the people here know the relative > scarcity/worth of the items. On ebay you can take advantage of > ignorance and buying frenzy. Sure there is a point to cross-list it here or in a newsgroup: because it's on-topic and somebody here, like me, might be interested in buying it. I've found plenty of good bargains via online auctions, especially on obscure stuff, but I don't especially enjoy "the hunt". I'd rather be notified when there is something of interest to me. The assumption here seems to be that Real Collectors(TM) hang out on this list and know the value of stuff better than those posers that frequent auctions. I'd suggest that the exact opposite is true. Whenever somebody asks this list "how much is this thing worth", the answer is invariably "whatever somebody is willing to pay". Basically, valuation of collectibles is a democratic process not an analytical one belonging to some exclusive domain of experts. -- Doug From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 10 20:02:23 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Ack, not again (RE: Cross listing auction items) Message-ID: Please stop this, we've been over it a million times. It ALWAYS generates MORE traffic on the list to argue about it than it does to simply ignore the auction posts if you don't like 'em. Kai From jruschme at exit109.com Wed Jun 10 19:57:50 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Dash 030 (was: Early Mac Clones) References: <3.0.16.19980610090828.47d7155c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <357F2B8E.8CC2AAB6@exit109.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 07:14 AM 6/10/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Does "Mac II-type motherboard" mean its a genuine Apple motherboard, or > >do you just mean its similiar to the Mac II motherboards? > > Sorry... By "Mac II-type" I meant that size mb. Both that I have use real > Apple motherboards. One is (iirc) a Mac IIx, the other is a IIfx. Very > nice servers for their time, with great cases. Well, as I wrote in another post, the Dash '030 *is* a repackaged, clock-chipped IIfx. As for the rest.. smile when you say it, some of us still run IIx's and IIfx's. :-) Seriously, though, there is an article on one of the MacTimes sites which argues for using an older system as a server. Basically, it contends that given the speeds of Ethernet and SCSI, even the oldest macs can keep up with the load. <<>> From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 10 20:13:36 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980610090101.47d71b8a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > What year did the 1550sx come out? I'll have to watch for it... 8^) It's not even classic yet: GRID INTROS FIRST MS-DOS LAPTOP WITH BUILT-IN POINTER BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS, U.S.A., 1990 AUG 16 (NB) -- Grid Systems Corporation has introduced the GridCase 1550sx, the first PC-compatible lapto... Somebody else (Max?) asked whether this tootsie-roll thing is better than a mouse. I hate mice, and hate track-balls and other stationary pointers only slightly less, but I *love* IBM's eraser head. Some people see this as a religious issue, but it's really logical: A mouse requires you to remove your hands from the keyboard and switch your focus to an asinine eye-hand coordination exercise. I want to stay on the keyboard as much as possible, and my brain is much better at memorizing weird key sequences than doing real-time eye-hand stuff. But if I have to move a stupid pointer across the screen, the eraser head let's me keep most of my fingers on keys where they belong. -- Doug From mor at crl.com Wed Jun 10 19:18:55 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E91C@NT486> Message-ID: <357F226F.1E436EF4@crl.com> Jack Peacock wrote: > > >During my hiatus, I was spending alot of time on usenet, > >a place where this is done all the time. > > Well no, it isn't done all the time. At least on the comp.sys, comp.os, > and alt.comp newsgroups I follow. It's considered spam and those who do > it are invited to go elsewhere. Besides, no point in listing that stuff > here if you are also going to ebay, the people here know the relative > scarcity/worth of the items. On ebay you can take advantage of > ignorance and buying frenzy. Man, you're telling me. Anybody else notice the $572 PET 2001? And that auction isn't over yet... Does anyone think this sort of thing will continue/escalate long-term? It's got me tempted to start unloading things I'm kinda fond of simply because I have kids to put through college somehow... Maybe it's best to do it now, if it's just some kind of fad, then re-purchase at $5 later on when it's no longer trendy... Decisions, decisions. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 10 20:16:55 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Ack, not again (RE: Cross listing auction items) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Please stop this, we've been over it a million times. We've been over the "is it OK to sell stuff here" question a million times. The auction thing adds a nice twist because they address the all-important valuation issue. Anyway, did you have anything to do with the Microsoft Museum announcement, and do you know what Bill is looking for and how much he'll pay? -- Doug From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 10 20:21:16 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: MS Museum (RE: Ack, not again (RE: Cross listing auction items)) Message-ID: Well, apparently we need to demolish the existing one-story building where the current museum is located, and it's always been a bit cramped for big school tours, so a new larger location was pretty much de rigeur. I don't know if anything will be added, and no, I'm not on the museum staff. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 6:17 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Ack, not again (RE: Cross listing auction items) On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Please stop this, we've been over it a million times. We've been over the "is it OK to sell stuff here" question a million times. The auction thing adds a nice twist because they address the all-important valuation issue. Anyway, did you have anything to do with the Microsoft Museum announcement, and do you know what Bill is looking for and how much he'll pay? -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 10 20:24:49 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Microsoft's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > The museum will have more than twice the floor space of any other > company's museum, and it'll be invitation-only. > > Construction begins a year from now. Well, my museum will be twice as interesting as Microsoft's, and anyone is invited. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 10 20:27:26 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing auction items Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980610212543.0069bcb0@netpath.net> At 07:58 PM 6/10/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >auctions. I'd suggest that the exact opposite is true. Whenever somebody >asks this list "how much is this thing worth", the answer is invariably >"whatever somebody is willing to pay". Basically, valuation of >collectibles is a democratic process not an analytical one belonging to >some exclusive domain of experts. Exactly, hence the value of an auction environment. That is what "whatever someone is willing to pay" means, isn't it? - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 10 20:26:50 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <357F226F.1E436EF4@crl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > Man, you're telling me. Anybody else notice the $572 PET 2001? And Or the $1500 Lisa 2? That one went from $300 to $1500 in one bid, but it only takes one sucker, err, collector. > that auction isn't over yet... Does anyone think this sort of thing > will continue/escalate long-term? It's got me tempted to start > unloading things I'm kinda fond of simply because I have kids to put > through college somehow... Maybe it's best to do it now, if it's just > some kind of fad, then re-purchase at $5 later on when it's no longer > trendy... Decisions, decisions. Prices will only go up. Online auctions are still in the early adoption phase, and they're not making any new Old Computers, so supply continues to go down while demand goes up. You'll be able to retire on your Sinclair ZX-81 at this rate. -- Doug From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 10 20:28:08 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: FA: Various systems References: <3dc15e16.357ec475@aol.com> Message-ID: <357F32A8.40709995@rain.org> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > This is NOT a flame, but i'm just wondering the point of posting items > that > have been put up for sale on ebay, et al. all that means is every item > will > already be overbid on for an insane price. it is my opinion that if > anything I, for one, do not always check the various online auctions and appreciate seeing notices pointing towards things of interest to the group. From manney at lrbcg.com Wed Jun 10 20:29:12 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: GRiD Latop, another problem Message-ID: <01bd94d8$56fb52c0$2028a2ce@laptop> Thanks for the advice -- it worked just fine!. Now...Windows (3.1) setup hangs when loading...when it's still in the DOS screens (before starting the Windows part.) Any ideas? manney@lrbcg.com "Un sot trouve toujours un plus sot qui l'admire." >Most (all?) GRiDs allow the boot device to be selected by holding down a >key at boot time: >'F': floppy >'H': hard disk >'B': bubble disk >'R': ROM disk >etc. I'm also hav manney@lrbcg.com "Un sot trouve toujours un plus sot qui l'admire." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980610/44b9334a/attachment.html From manney at lrbcg.com Wed Jun 10 20:32:04 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Help on Grid Laptop Message-ID: <01bd94d8$bda69660$2028a2ce@laptop> There's an interesting GRiD support page at http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD/new.html >Is it a 1550SX? Try ftp://ftp.ast.com/GRID/conf1550.exe From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 10 20:41:38 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E91C@NT486> Message-ID: <357F35D2.388D9E68@rain.org> Jack Peacock wrote: > > >During my hiatus, I was spending alot of time on usenet, > >a place where this is done all the time. > > Well no, it isn't done all the time. At least on the comp.sys, > comp.os, > and alt.comp newsgroups I follow. It's considered spam and those who > do > it are invited to go elsewhere. Besides, no point in listing that > stuff Spam is generally considered to be unwanted and inappropriate postings. I don't think such for-sale notices when they *directly* relate to what this list is supposed to be all about could possibly be considered spam. > here if you are also going to ebay, the people here know the relative > scarcity/worth of the items. On ebay you can take advantage of > ignorance and buying frenzy. Or, you can choose not to find out what others consider the value of these things to be. Thus ignorance can be expanded to include those who should be aware of what others value these computers/etc. at. It is all a matter of perspective :)! From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 10 20:57:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <357F226F.1E436EF4@crl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > Man, you're telling me. Anybody else notice the $572 PET 2001? And > that auction isn't over yet... Does anyone think this sort of thing > will continue/escalate long-term? It's got me tempted to start Its hard to say. This trend may yet peak. I am at a loss to explain the sudden fascination with collecting old computers like they were baseball cards or comic books. I predicted (and it wasn't an original prediction for sure) a year ago that eventually the speculators would turn on this market, but its happened a lot sooner than I expected. I hope this sudden interest is good for me in terms of more attendees for the Vintage Computer Festivals, but I would hope they are coming to hear the speakers as opposed to just wanting to add that elusive beanie baby to their collection. > unloading things I'm kinda fond of simply because I have kids to put > through college somehow... Maybe it's best to do it now, if it's just > some kind of fad, then re-purchase at $5 later on when it's no longer > trendy... Decisions, decisions. I will unabashedly take advantage of this bizarre craze by cashing in some parts of my collection on the online auctions in order to fund this year's VCF. While I won't be auctioning off any SYM-1's or Altairs, I hope the fad lasts long enough to make a few bucks off a TRS-80 Model 1, an Apple ///, and other halfway decent stuff. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 10 21:13:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) References: <19980609001051.12756.qmail@hotmail.com> <357CA501.3A4C@geocities.com> Message-ID: <357F3D5E.B5B87A3E@cnct.com> Poesie wrote: > > Hehe... as a just-turned-20 yr old computer tech, I would be more than > happy to take any job right now fixing computers... we kids are always > the first to be laid off :) > > Although my experience is that anytime I say "hey, can I try to fix > that?" People expect me to be at the level of a CompUSA tech. What can I > say... I'd rather fix 8088's than packard bell systems :P Hell, I'd rather fix rams with my teeth the way the old Basque herders used to than a Packard-Bell computer. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 10 21:15:45 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing auction items In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980610212543.0069bcb0@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > >auctions. I'd suggest that the exact opposite is true. Whenever somebody > >asks this list "how much is this thing worth", the answer is invariably > >"whatever somebody is willing to pay". Basically, valuation of > >collectibles is a democratic process not an analytical one belonging to > >some exclusive domain of experts. > > Exactly, hence the value of an auction environment. That is what "whatever > someone is willing to pay" means, isn't it? I still maintain that eBay, apparently being the premier site for auctioning off one's vintage computer stock, does not produce the exemplar of classic computer "values". The prices people pay there are without argument on the high end of what anyone would normally pay in any other venue, and if anything only serve to move the average price paid higher. The prices paid there do NOT represent scarcity, nor do they in a lot of cases even represent true demand. What I mean is that it seems anything that's advertised as a "classic" or "collector's item" will be converged upon like hyenas on a bloated yak corpse. There is a distinct group of bidders on eBay who wait for the next "collectible" computer to be posted and then stampede over one another to be the one to get it, seemingly regardless of the price it takes to "win". I wonder what the age of some of these bidders are, since it would seem ignorance plays a big part in the eventual selling price of an item. I don't know how many of you have ever been in a real auction, but its very easy to get carried away and bid too high for something, higher than even retail market value in fact! I know, because I've seen it. And I've also gotten caught up in the adrenaline rush that comes in a fierce bidding war. Its not pretty. If you're an amateur at auctions then it can happen very easily. I think a lot of what goes on at eBay is a matter of a bunch of amateurs who know little to nothing about what they are bidding on but simply want to build a collection of old computers, just because they think may be worth a lot of money someday. I guess they've been reading the occasional articles on collecting computers that come along and get the impression that this is some hot fad, perhaps not realizing that this too will pass. I and others have said in the past that there's no wrong reason for wanting to collect computers, but this craze I see going on at eBay is in the very least stupid. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 10 21:18:10 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980610221803.00699a6c@netpath.net> At 10:13 PM 6/10/98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >Hell, I'd rather fix rams with my teeth the way the old Basque herders >used to than a Packard-Bell computer. You mean there's a difference? :) Packard Bell: Today's headache, tomorrow's obscure collectible. Hey, you never know: People might start collecting only the badly designed systems. It could happen. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 10 21:19:36 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Or the $1500 Lisa 2? That one went from $300 to $1500 in one bid, but it > only takes one sucker, err, collector. Follow this one up. If it wasn't a joke bid, then the joke's on the dope who bought it. > Prices will only go up. Online auctions are still in the early adoption > phase, and they're not making any new Old Computers, so supply continues > to go down while demand goes up. You'll be able to retire on your > Sinclair ZX-81 at this rate. One could only hope. But I question your assertion of supply going down. I predict that supply could in fact go up! As people get word that morons are buying up old computers like they were gold, all the old Apple ][s and PETs and SYM-1s and what-not will be dug out of the closet/attic/cellar and thrown up for bid. There are still plenty of computers out there. Only some can be classified as truly rare, but nobody knows this for sure. The very definition of "speculation"as it relates to collecting. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 10 21:23:46 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <357F3D5E.B5B87A3E@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Hell, I'd rather fix rams with my teeth the way the old Basque herders > used to than a Packard-Bell computer. This should be added to the FAQ. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 10 21:29:34 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) References: Message-ID: <357F410E.4640550B@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The point is, in the UK at least, designers tend to get much better pay, > > and are more highly regarded than repairmen. This I think is wrong, but this > > list is not the place for that rant. > > Most anyone can look at something after its been designed and say "Oh, how > obvious". But only so many people have the creative ability to initiate > the design. Hence, the discrepancy. The English language is such a fun thing and confusing in many ways, but since it's the only language I know well enough to to more than order a beer, I try to play with it. The word "fix" for instance. (1) Fix the car. (2) Fix the cat. (3) Fix the painting. To some people, the phrase "fix the computer" carries meaning along the lines of taking a car to a mechanic. To others, it's more like taking a tomcat to the veterinarian. To a few, it's like finishing a work of art and protecting it from further change, as a painter applies a fixative to a picture. There are other meanings of the word. Designers fix computers one way (3), servoids fix them another way (1), Microsoft fixes them another (2). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From william at ans.net Wed Jun 10 21:26:46 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980610221803.00699a6c@netpath.net> Message-ID: > Packard Bell: Today's headache, tomorrow's obscure collectible. Hey, you > never know: People might start collecting only the badly designed systems. > It could happen. OK, enough Packard-Bell bashing. Send me every PB model 250 you can get your hands on - I will even pay shipping (and for the crate). William Donzelli william@ans.net From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 10 21:29:08 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing auction items Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980610222901.006c1950@netpath.net> I'm trying my darndest not to get too involved in this thread, even though I started it, but I need to set the record straight: The URLs I sent weren't from ebay, they were from Haggle Online. An online auction that is totally free to buyers and sellers, unlike ebay, that charges a fee to sellers. Not that it really matters, since online auctions seem to be the new "great satan" on this list. I would like to point out though that if you don't know the true value of an item, why not let the public decide? What's wrong with making a little bit of money off a hobby? I know this probably isn't over, but I'll try to stay out of it, regardless. At 07:15 PM 6/10/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: >I and others have said in the past that there's no wrong reason for >wanting to collect computers, but this craze I see going on at eBay is in >the very least stupid. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 10 21:33:48 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980610223343.006a3a68@netpath.net> At 10:26 PM 6/10/98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> Packard Bell: Today's headache, tomorrow's obscure collectible. Hey, you >> never know: People might start collecting only the badly designed systems. >> It could happen. > >OK, enough Packard-Bell bashing. Send me every PB model 250 you can get >your hands on - I will even pay shipping (and for the crate). Heh heh. I thought that comment would flush out a PB person or two. :) They have actually gotten alot better, but I don't think you'll ever see any in the Smithsonian like some classic systems. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Jun 10 21:02:25 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Microsoft Re-Liscencing? Message-ID: <004e01bd94e1$88e98640$7a6fbcc1@hotze> Hi. Just heard about this, so I dunno really what I'm talking about... Appearantly, this company is (was) selling liscences for DOS 3.3. I'm guessing that this is from a deal with MS. Has anyone ever seen this? Is it available with another product, such as early Windows releases? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 10 21:47:28 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) References: <199806090236.AA26030@world.std.com> Message-ID: <357F4540.BC701FEC@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > True! I have the advantage that I see designs and immediatly see the > core of the design with all the fluff removed. But it's years of > experience and a good basic grounding in circuit theory that allows me to > look st stuff I've never seen and synthsize the elements of the design in > my head and troubleshoot it, right down to seeing it's weak points of > likely failure. Yes, Allison, but you're the goddess of electronics, not a mere grub like the rest of us. Unfortunately, 95% of the training the USAF gave me was analog, and the bits of digital they gave me wound up in brain cells that died during those four years -- I know Boolean logic from high school (where I did a serious presentation comparing Boolean, Venn and Dodgeson methods of representation), but I can't follow a digital schematic to save my life. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 10 21:48:39 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980610221803.00699a6c@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > Packard Bell: Today's headache, tomorrow's obscure collectible. Hey, you > never know: People might start collecting only the badly designed systems. > It could happen. It's already happening. Most people that I've talked to that had to use the Altair hated it because of design problems. The Apple Lisa failed because it was too slow. It's kind of self-fullfilling rarity: a bad computer generally means one that they didn't make many of and not many people wanted to buy. The PC-Jr will probably be a prized collectible. If VW's Bug can make a come-back, why not Packard Bell's bugs? -- Doug From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 10 21:49:34 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: "Max Eskin" "Re: Files as files" (Jun 10, 14:56) References: <19980610215640.14257.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <9806110349.ZM13373@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 10, 14:56, Max Eskin wrote: > How do UNIX files work? Is there a header of some sort? Not really. Certainly not consistently across all file types. Often command scripts have a comment at the top, and some versions of unix (eg, Irix) embed a "tag" number into executables so they can distinguish individual programs/versions quickly, but other than that, filetype determination is done by looking at various parts of a file and comparing what's found ("magic numbers") to a database (the "magic" file). So, for example, my system "knows" a certain file is a command script because the first 256 characters are all ASCII (which means it's probably a text file of some sort) and the file permissions are set such that it's executable (not merely readable). It also knows that a certain file is an ELF-format executable for a 32-bit little-endian MIPS processor with a version 1 architecture (ie it will run on *old* MIPS cpus as well as newer ones) because the bytes at offset 1 are "ELF", at offset 4 there's a binary "1" (which in this context means 32-bit not 64-bit), at offset 5 there's another "1" (little-endian), at offset 16 "2" means "executable", and at offset 18 "0" means "MIPS" (not Sparc, 80x86, 68000, etc). Some magic numbers are much simpler to decode, of course: a file that begins with "GIF89a" is a GIF file, surprise, surprise. And the more you dig, the more detail you can work out. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 10 22:03:14 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Stupid lusers... References: Message-ID: <357F48F2.A75DDA49@cnct.com> Julian Richardson wrote: > > >> The MC68010 is the heart of my favorite computer ever, the AT&T Unix PC > >> (built by Convergent Technologies). I've got three, two work fine, one > >> is for parts. _Still_ the prettiest machines in my collection. > > Do you mean the NCR Tower series? Or was this some other offering by > AT&T? I seem to remember that the old Tower 400's had 68010's - I've > still got a few boards somewhere for one (system board was about 1 metre > long and half a metre high!). I've got a complete Tower 700 with a 68030 > as main CPU, and performance still rates really highly even these > days...) > > Jules Some of the NCR Towers were repackaged Convergent 'frames, but the AT&T Unix PC was a desktop system (hang on a second, there's a URL around here someplace -- I've got to get a digital camera and take my own pictures sometime -- . In the picture the keyboard is off of the shelf (to expose the floppy drive), when it's there the thing is a wedge with a swilt&tivel on top. The keyboard is second only to the one that came with the Tandy 2000. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 10 22:16:04 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones References: <003501bd92b0$f25b21c0$c5173ccb@mr-ibm> Message-ID: <357F4BF4.665907D2@cnct.com> Desie Hay wrote: > > bit hard getting a mac into a pc case though, remember that macs have all > the connectors on board, > > desie So do most PC motherboards. So when you put a "modern" PC motherboard (ACX or whatever it's called) into (say) the chassis of an old AT&T 6386E (the original motherboard makes a truly spiffy decoration nailed to the wall), you use extension cables to the card slots the way the extra serial ports have gone in PC clones since Day One. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Monday, June 08, 1998 5:41 > Subject: Re: Early Mac Clones > > >On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > > > >> What edition do you have? My 2nd edition book says a listing of clones > >> is given in edition 1, as oppose to just saying they exist. I'd love to > >> get a list of old Mac clones. > > > >I made a timely find today of the first edition of _Build Your Own > >Macintosh and Save a Bundle_. In Chapter 2 it has a price comparison > >between the clone "Cat" Mac and the real Mac. The computers it lists are: > > > >Cat Mac SE > >Cat Mac SE 30 > >Cat Mac II > >Cat Mac IIfx > >Cat Mac IIcx > >Cat Mac IIci > > > >It will indeed be interesting if I ever find one of these homebrew clones > >(For the curious, the book basically tells you to buy Mac motherboards and > >parts from third-party suppliers and stick them in a PC case. That's it.) > >They would be hard to spot since I don't even give a first look to PC > >clone boxes. There's not really anything special about them anyway, other > >than the fact that it is novel. > > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > >Ever onward. > > > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > [Last web page update: 05/30/98] > > -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 10 22:25:04 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones References: <19980608193233.7642.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <357F4E10.E3469171@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > But there's a difference between a Z-80 running a text-mode interface, > and an 8088 running a GUI. Also, remember that Bill Gates didn't know > very much about operating systems, as opposed to languages. MS Windows > is the only OS MS programmed ground up, something they only started > after the A1000. And, I've never seen Windows multitask under 8MB in the > way the Amiga or a UNIXoid computer can. -----------------other--------------- You never will. (Compare the CLI to the Unix Bourne shell sometime -- you'll notice that sense of similarity known as plagiarism.) > >> and Gates replied that multitasking really wasn't possible in > >> anything under 8 megs of ram. To which the same reporter replied, > >>"But > >> doesn't > >> your own Amiga Basic multitask nicely on a 512k Amiga?" > >> > >> A question which Gates promptly ignored and moved on......... > > > >Especially since the TRS-80 Model 16, with the Xenix OS partly done > >by Microsoft, multitasked (and multiusered) quite nicely even with > >only 256K of RAM. Not to mention the Color Computer running OS-9 in > >64K. The Model 16 Xenix systems were MC68000, the Color Computers were MC6809. The 16 _did_ have a Z-80 handling I/O, it was the original Model II CPU -- since the Model II could have the boards added to become a 16, and that's what the ports were coupled to. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 10 22:33:02 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones References: Message-ID: <357F4FEE.39BAB960@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Especially since the TRS-80 Model 16, with the Xenix OS partly done > > by Microsoft, multitasked (and multiusered) quite nicely even with > > only 256K of RAM. Not to mention the Color Computer running OS-9 in > > 64K. > > Or the early versions of PDP11 unix which ran in a 28kW machine, I think. > Or, indeed, Tripos, which certainly runs in a 28kW PDP11. > > One of the smallest multitasking systems I've seen was the I/O processor > on the PERQ 2's. It was a Z80 with 4K ROM and 16K RAM, but said ROM > contained essentially a cooperatively multitasking kernel. Some tasks > were in ROM, others were loaded into RAM. OK, so the user never realised > what was going on, but that doesn't alter the fact that it was there :-) Sounds neat. I guess I've got to try and find one. Are there any here on the rebellious side of the Atlantic? (I know _nothing_ of these machines beyond your messages, if I saw them advertised the references went into brain cells that have been foully murdered). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 10 22:50:00 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones References: <199806082318.AA15446@world.std.com> Message-ID: <357F53E8.FEE9B01F@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > The smallest I've seen run on 8080 and fits in some 100 or so bytes. It > was published in Kilobaud April 1978 page 102 and yes it was real. > > To multitask on most anything all you need is an interrupt and save the > context of the current task and start some new task... the order, where > the tasks are and memory allocation can be somewhat tricky but, for > small tasks its pretty trivial. I've done it in 8048 MCUs where the > resources were 64byts of ram and 1k of rom and the tasks were keyscan, > display, serial IO and code conversion. The timer provided the > interrupt. Change of topic -- Allison, you're the first I've seen mention owning Kilobaud Mag of that era, I _really, really_ want copies of two articles from the magazine. One is from (i think) about August 1978, "Is there Intelligent Life in Your Computer Room" [humorous], the other is (i think) from about November 1979 "Amazing Mazes" [code, in BASIC]. If you've got them, I'll accept photocopies in almost any condition or I'll stop off and borrow them for ten minutes and get them copied since that's the best reason I can think of to up to go to New England and expose myself to my 25th high school reunion in Laconia NH in July. (Well, if I needed another reason, my hairline is still where it was back when I was 18, and I suspect that some of the former jocks have toupees that can be casually pocketed while I'm shaking their hands). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 10 22:58:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones References: <3.0.32.19980609094255.009073f0@pop3.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <357F55D9.5D8D673D@cnct.com> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > Hey, not to mention those guys that unpackage their CoCo III's and put them > into PeeCee cabinets to add SCSI, more disk drives, extra memory, etc. etc. > etc. Hey, that's what I'm planning to do with this "classic" Compaq portable I got for free (stripped of everything but the motherboard and floppy) -- I've got no use for 8088 systems, and all of the documentation I have is on building a CoCo3 into an AT style case. Since I've got a spare CoCo3 to work with (I've got 4, I love OS-9, so I'll experiment with the one with the lowest Rev level and least memory, then put in a _good one_). > Jeff > > At 05:45 PM 6/8/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>bit hard getting a mac into a pc case though, remember that macs have all > >>the connectors on board, > >> > >>desie > > > > > >Can't be any worse than the people that put Atari's or Amiga's in a PC > >case. I've seen a Atari TT030 in a PC Tower, and it's quite popular among > >Amiga people to tower their A1200's. All it takes is some creative cabling. > > > > Zane > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | > >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > > > > -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 10 22:55:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Cross listing auction items In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980610222901.006c1950@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > new "great satan" on this list. I would like to point out though that if > you don't know the true value of an item, why not let the public decide? > What's wrong with making a little bit of money off a hobby? I know this > probably isn't over, but I'll try to stay out of it, regardless. Since this message was a direct response to my posting, I'll respond to it since it deserves clarification on a point. I have no problem with anyone making money off this hobby. More power to you. I was just pointing out the ludicrousity of what people are PAYING for old computers on the online auctions. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 10 22:57:13 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980610223343.006a3a68@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > >OK, enough Packard-Bell bashing. Send me every PB model 250 you can get > >your hands on - I will even pay shipping (and for the crate). > > Heh heh. I thought that comment would flush out a PB person or two. :) > > They have actually gotten alot better, but I don't think you'll ever see > any in the Smithsonian like some classic systems. I think William was referring to the PackardBell mainframes of the late 60s and early 70s era. Hence, the mention of the model 250. Our own Tony Duell has a Model 850. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From erd at infinet.com Wed Jun 10 22:58:43 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:28 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <19980610215640.14257.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 10, 98 02:56:40 pm Message-ID: <199806110358.XAA17420@user2.infinet.com> > > How do UNIX files work? Is there a header of some sort? They are just a stream of bytes. Period. Some types of files can start with certain special byte pairs (a.out, perl scripts, Postscript, shell scripts and the like), but that's a convenience for the segment loader (program loader). You can feed any byte stream, valid or invalid, to a UNIX app and it will do its best to process the data. Now... programmers from a limited background have been known to code in explicit checks for certain file extensions and make assumptions based on the spelling of the file name, but that's the programmer's idea, not UNIX's idea of how to do things. Extensions are optional. Formatted data is optional. As a result, every configuration file ever invented is a different format. There are no real standards, just occasional similarities. cf. termcap entries vs. passwd entries vs. any .*rc file for any app, etc. > BTW, I think it's an incredible pain that the Mac has no built in > way to change file types. If they get lost, I have to used DiskEdit > or some such thing to restore them. What about ResEdit? John writes: > >One of my latest three-great-ideas-before-breakfast ideas is > >to write a program for Windows that sniffs and identifies files > >in the manner of Unix's "file". That's the problem with files as > >files: you can easily lose track of what's in them, especially > >if you lose that three-char extension, or it gets wrapped in > >an archive format or attachment, etc. If I were you, I'd start with the source to the UNIX 'file' program and use its associated list of file types. It has a list (in its own format, of course ;-) of various kinds of files and whatever signature bytes are found in whatever offsets to make a best guess at the nature of the file. Fortunately, this table is in printable ASCII (kinda universal within UNIX) and fairly easy to extend, making it suitable for the Windoze world. Enjoy, -ethan From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 10 23:02:19 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > It's already happening. Most people that I've talked to that had to use > the Altair hated it because of design problems. The Apple Lisa failed > because it was too slow. It's kind of self-fullfilling rarity: a bad > computer generally means one that they didn't make many of and not many > people wanted to buy. The PC-Jr will probably be a prized collectible. Hardly. There were plenty of those made too. I've got at least 5 now, and I just added one today from the WeirdStuff sealed bid auction (I couldn't resist, it came with some cool carthridges including Imagic's Demon Attack [who knew Imagic made carts for the PCjr!?] and an internal PCjr modem). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 10 23:03:29 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > It's already happening. Most people that I've talked to that had to use > the Altair hated it because of design problems. The Apple Lisa failed > because it was too slow. It's kind of self-fullfilling rarity: a bad > computer generally means one that they didn't make many of and not many > people wanted to buy. The PC-Jr will probably be a prized collectible. One more thing: it is sort of ironic that total flops are only popular today by way of their obscurity Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 10 23:08:19 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Basic PDP-11ish questions In-Reply-To: <9806101831.AA12716@alph02.triumf.ca> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 9, 98 10:22:50 pm Message-ID: >> So is there anything else the DQ606 can do, besides act as a DU floppy >> controller? > >I don't think so. Other higher-number DQ6n6 controllers run >ST-506-type MFM drives. Don't think there is much chance of that, as I don't see anywhere the necessary cables could be attached. >> Does it have any boot ROMs of its own? > >Could be, but it'd probably be deactivated for most purposes. What >sort of switches/jumpers/jacks are on the DQ606? If it has a 10-pin >jack, very likely you can plug a terminal in to the DQ606 and >configure it from there. (This is how you configure later Dilog >controllers, but I think the DQ606 might be too old.) It has the 10-pin jack at the very front of the card, I rather assumed that was what that connecter is. I'd not tried it out since I didn't want to mess anything up by not having any idea about what I was doing. The card has a very odd looking mod done to it, there is a dual DIP switch, with the very thin wire used to patch cards leading from it going to one or more of the chips on the board, in a couple spots where it would connect to the chip that particular pin has been removed from the chip. It has JP1, JP2, and JP3 jupbers. In about the middle of the card are what could be more jumpers or a connecter for a ribbon cable, I'm pretty sure it's for a cable despite being at the wrong angle. It's a 20-pin connector, and is at the wrong angle for this type of board, as the cable would probably interfere with the board next to it. I think it's a cable connector because the other two are labeled J1 and J3, this one is J2. There is a what looks to be a ROM, with a handwritten lable: MQ606/DQ606/DQ616 Rev G5 10-FEB-90 359FB4 I can't be sure about the MQ606 as the letter part is fairly badly scuffed off. One thing I found interesting is the presense of a Z80 processor on the board. I guess if nothing else that is to provide the processing power used when configureing the card, does it do anything else? Whoa, I just realized I've got the MQ606 manual, I got it off of the RSX BBS Web Site. I've now taken a look at it. Way cool, sounds like I've answered the question of what was booting the system this card had been in, since it's the ROM for both a MQ606 and DQ606 (the MQ added the HD controller abilities). It looks like it not only has a boot ROM onboard, but that it also supports a FAR wider variety of devices that the Boot ROMs in the SMS-1000! Including, the RL02 drives that I've got. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 10 23:17:09 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: CP/M software (was: Former Disk Costs) References: Message-ID: <357F5A45.832F698F@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > <> It should be different as Knuth's was written in C and tex is asm or pl > > < ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > > > > Working versions (or pascal). I've never seen a web compiler. > > Well, the standard (as in Knuth) TeX source is most definitely web. I > have it here. > > Web is a combination of 2 languages, one for programming and one for > documentation. Running a .web file through tangle extracts the > programming language (and expands macros, etc). In the case of TeX, that > language is pascal. Of course you can then put it through p2c if you want > (in fact that's what you normally do on a unix box, but that doesn't mean > it's written in C). > > > Allison > > This is getting rather far from classic computers, so I think I'll leave > it there. > > -tony Actually, no, it isn't. TeX was introduced (IIRC) in the early eighties. And Knuth sidetracked onto it because he didn't like the way his still- essential books on computer science had been typeset. It's actually a real shame he never got back to continuing that series. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Jun 10 19:52:34 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? Message-ID: <199806110452.AAA24422@smtp.interlog.com> > On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Was this one of the ones from about '92? If it's the one I'm thinking of, > > it would be the first with the 'pencil' pointer in the keyboard. For all I > > know, the first built in pointer (I'd not seen any prior to this). Of > > course I really remember it running AIX and OS/2 at the same time (I hate > > AIX, but sure wish they had released that product). > > That must be it. The TP700 was the first with the TrackPoint (eraser > head). Interestingly enough there was a thread recently on comp.sys.ibm.ps2 re the collectiveity of PS2 s. Most mentioned the 700. Some quotes : "The Thinkpad 710T (IBMs first Trackpad). I have one - without the 5MB TP-File. There were two different model-lines out: one has a 2.5" IDE HD, the other has a 5,10 or 20MB PCMCIA Solid State disk. The SSD-models have a different planar and cannot be converted into IDE-models. I have a SSD-model (2523-AY9) but no TP-Filecard. Too bad." " 9552 Thinkpad 700 C, one of the last microchannel Thinkpads" ciao larry > > The first DOS laptop with a pointing device was the GRiD 1550SX, and it > had an isopoint (tootsie-roll) similar to the Outbound Mac-clone. > > -- Doug > > > lwalker@interlog.com From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 11 00:13:51 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) References: <3.0.32.19980610221803.00699a6c@netpath.net> Message-ID: <357F678F.B6745665@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 10:13 PM 6/10/98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > >Hell, I'd rather fix rams with my teeth the way the old Basque herders > >used to than a Packard-Bell computer. > > You mean there's a difference? :) > > Packard Bell: Today's headache, tomorrow's obscure collectible. Hey, you > never know: People might start collecting only the badly designed systems. > It could happen. Well, they do it with cars. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From billm at teleport.com Thu Jun 11 00:30:54 1998 From: billm at teleport.com (Bill Marx) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Microsoft Re-Liscencing? In-Reply-To: <004e01bd94e1$88e98640$7a6fbcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Jun 11, 1998 05:02:25 AM Message-ID: <199806110530.WAA06895@user1.teleport.com> I have talked to the Microsoft License Police...(my words) and they say anything not purchased from their multipacks is illegal..hell i got MANY sets of dos 4 on either 3.5 or 5 1/4..that I will sell REAL cheap.. Bill From dastar at wco.com Thu Jun 11 00:45:44 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Digital DF02 modem Message-ID: Ok you DEC-heads. What baud rate does the Digital DF02 modem jog along at? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 11 00:58:57 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Microsoft Re-Liscencing? References: <004e01bd94e1$88e98640$7a6fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <357F7221.399244F5@cnct.com> Hotze wrote: > > Hi. Just heard about this, so I dunno really what I'm talking about... > > Appearantly, this company is (was) selling liscences for DOS 3.3. I'm > guessing that this is from a deal with MS. Has anyone ever seen this? Is > it available with another product, such as early Windows releases? > Ciao, > > Tim D. Hotze Heard about what? You've got to put in things like company names and things like that. Micro$ rarely _sells_ licenses -- they basically lease them to you for the life of the product, after which you are expected to lease another license with the next product you get. Most new PCs come with Micro$ already licensed, in a large installation it takes serious bucks to get all of the WfWG (what was originally licensed/installed at acquisition) stations upgraded to NT Workstation. When you're dealing with 40-70 thousand workstations. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 11 02:08:45 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: CP/M software (was: Former Disk Costs) In-Reply-To: <357F5A45.832F698F@cnct.com> References: Message-ID: <199806110708.RAA07033@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:17 AM 11-06-98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >Actually, no, it isn't. TeX was introduced (IIRC) in the early eighties. >And Knuth sidetracked onto it because he didn't like the way his still- >essential books on computer science had been typeset. It's actually a >real shame he never got back to continuing that series. But he has! Volumes 1 through 3 have been completely revised and set in TeX. I purchased them a few months ago and did a quick compare with my original set and there are lots of improvements/changes. There is also a commitment in them to complete the set "shortly" and AFAIR volume 4 will be out this year... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 11 02:11:44 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Digital DF02 modem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199806110711.RAA07044@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 10:45 PM 10-06-98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >Ok you DEC-heads. What baud rate does the Digital DF02 modem jog along >at? It's been so long.... but my very rusty core memory returns 300baud when asked this question :-) Another World Cup 98 fanatic suffering from being in the wrong time zone wrt France :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 11 02:59:13 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: CP/M software (was: Former Disk Costs) References: <199806110708.RAA07033@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <357F8E51.44912786@cnct.com> Huw Davies wrote: > > At 12:17 AM 11-06-98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > >Actually, no, it isn't. TeX was introduced (IIRC) in the early eighties. > >And Knuth sidetracked onto it because he didn't like the way his still- > >essential books on computer science had been typeset. It's actually a > >real shame he never got back to continuing that series. > > But he has! Volumes 1 through 3 have been completely revised and set in > TeX. I purchased them a few months ago and did a quick compare with my > original set and there are lots of improvements/changes. There is also a > commitment in them to complete the set "shortly" and AFAIR volume 4 will be > out this year... Having heard such promises for longer than some list members have been alive, I hope I will be forgiven for not wanting to count my chickens until the eggs are all in one basket. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From dastar at wco.com Thu Jun 11 02:57:50 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: FS: Apple Lisa Vintage Computer! Very rare! (fwd) Message-ID: @Get this for humor. The funny thing is, he'll probably get this price for it! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Shadow303@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.marketplace Subject: FS: Apple Lisa Vintage Computer! Very rare! Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 14:39:20 GMT Apple Lisa computer for sale! Looks a bit used but in excellent condition! Has tons of extra software! I want 2,000 dollars or best offer. E mail me. Cliff -- Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 11 03:20:02 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Files as files References: <199806101510.AA19261@world.std.com> <9806101733.ZM12392@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <357F9332.E72293FC@cnct.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Jun 10, 11:10, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > <9.3. > > > > Did you mean 8.3? RT-11, RSTS and RSX-11 were 8.3 as was early VMS and > > unice. > > RT-11 has always been 6.3, RSX-11 is 9.3 IIRC, and UNIX doesn't have any > fixed format - though early versions had a fairly small limit on name > length (12 chars?). All versions of UNIX allow as many dots as you can fit > in the length. Unix started with a 14-char filename limit (and allowed [still does] characters in filenames tricky to get at from the shell). I forget which release of BSD extended that to 256 characters (filenames longer than what my first Xenix would accept as lines), but that is now enshrined in SysVR4. I always figured if you couldn't describe what a file was for in 14 characters, you should be in a different profession. The current fashion for doing things like including things like extended version numbers in filenames does not change my opinion. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 11 03:40:36 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Files as files References: <19980610215640.14257.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <357F9804.6CC95F4A@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > How do UNIX files work? Is there a header of some sort? > BTW, I think it's an incredible pain that the Mac has no built in > way to change file types. If they get lost, I have to used DiskEdit > or some such thing to restore them. Nope, Unix files are just files. The "file" command to sniff out the file type looks at the beginning of the file for key signatures that might indicate what the file is and mistakes are made and accepted if a shell script is mistaken for a C program. The file /etc/magic is a fine resource on old Unix systems, I don't always remember where the lookup table is kept lately, with Linux it's in /usr/lib/magic but despite several years of recent AIX administration I realize I've never looked it up in that OS. > >One of my latest three-great-ideas-before-breakfast ideas is > >to write a program for Windows that sniffs and identifies files > >in the manner of Unix's "file". That's the problem with files as > >files: you can easily lose track of what's in them, especially > >if you lose that three-char extension, or it gets wrapped in > >an archive format or attachment, etc. > > > >- John > >Jefferson Computer Museum -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 11 03:36:08 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <357F9332.E72293FC@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Unix started with a 14-char filename limit (and allowed [still does] > characters in filenames tricky to get at from the shell). That used to be one of my interview questions for Unix programmers: your buggy program just created a filename with {control characters, leading dash (-), leading slash (/), '*', etc} in it. How do you delete it? Does anybody collect file systems? That would be semi-useful for somebody doing data recovery. I have no idea what the Newton "soup", for example, looks like. One of my favorites was the Regulus (unix-like) filesystem. It maintained a bitmap of free blocks and could easily allocate a best-fit contiguous region for your file (I think they had an option to creat() for contiguity). This made file access *fast* when you needed it. I still find fragmentation a nightmare even on Linux. -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 11 03:58:52 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E91C@NT486> <357F35D2.388D9E68@rain.org> Message-ID: <357F9C4C.98B5D73C@cnct.com> Marvin wrote: > Or, you can choose not to find out what others consider the value of > these things to be. Thus ignorance can be expanded to include those who > should be aware of what others value these computers/etc. at. It is all > a matter of perspective :)! Value is as value does. To me, online auctions are where stupid people with computers go when they're not on IRC or up at the corner store buying lottery tickets (gambling with a 50% house percentage? Do the state legislators think I'm as stupid as they are? Well, they know that most of the public is, it's how they were elected). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 11 04:14:02 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Dash 030 (was: Early Mac Clones) References: <3.0.16.19980610090828.47d7155c@ricochet.net> <357F2B8E.8CC2AAB6@exit109.com> Message-ID: <357F9FDA.ACB3DA68@cnct.com> John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > Uncle Roger wrote: > > > > At 07:14 AM 6/10/98 -0700, you wrote: > > >Does "Mac II-type motherboard" mean its a genuine Apple motherboard, or > > >do you just mean its similiar to the Mac II motherboards? > > > > Sorry... By "Mac II-type" I meant that size mb. Both that I have use real > > Apple motherboards. One is (iirc) a Mac IIx, the other is a IIfx. Very > > nice servers for their time, with great cases. > > Well, as I wrote in another post, the Dash '030 *is* a repackaged, > clock-chipped IIfx. > > As for the rest.. smile when you say it, some of us still run IIx's and > IIfx's. :-) > > Seriously, though, there is an article on one of the MacTimes sites > which argues for using an older system as a server. Basically, it > contends that given the speeds of Ethernet and SCSI, even the oldest > macs can keep up with the load. That's why I use an ancient 386/25 as a fileserver around the house here -- it's running an early RedHat Linux that I see no need to upgrade, as once I got SAMBA stabilized on it, it works fine for my wife's Windows systems and I let it nfs mount disks on the faster/newer systems -- the machine itself only has 340 Mb disk itself, but by sharing nfs-mounted volumes through Samba, it looks like it has more and a 386/25 can pass ethernet packets as fast as anybody else until I upgrade to 100 megabit. Then I'll have to configure Samba on another system -- not looking forward to it. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jun 11 04:54:46 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: IBM PC DOS 5.02 (OT) Message-ID: <000201bd9521$7ec2d8c0$e367bcc1@hotze> Hi. I just got a shwrink wrapped copy of this, and wanted to know if anyone wanted it before I used it... I'll either sell it or trade it for PC/Apple ][ stuff. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu Jun 11 06:09:26 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Digital DF02 modem In-Reply-To: <199806110711.RAA07044@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> from "Huw Davies" at Jun 11, 98 05:11:44 pm Message-ID: <199806111109.HAA27933@shell.monmouth.com> > > At 10:45 PM 10-06-98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > >Ok you DEC-heads. What baud rate does the Digital DF02 modem jog along > >at? > > It's been so long.... but my very rusty core memory returns 300baud when > asked this question :-) Correct. If my old memory is still good... DF01 - (I think was 300 baud acoustic coupler) DF02 - (300 baud) DF03 - (300 baud?) DF112 - (300/1200 baud) DF224 (aka Scholar) - (300/1200/2400 baud) DEC used to use Racal Vadic modems for Remote Diagnostics until the DF02. The DF224 was supposed to be their first Hayes Compatible. > > Another World Cup 98 fanatic suffering from being in the wrong time zone > wrt France :-) > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 > 1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" > Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 11 06:58:32 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza "Re: Files as files" (Jun 11, 3:36) References: Message-ID: <9806111258.ZM19989@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 11, 3:36, Doug Yowza wrote: > That used to be one of my interview questions for Unix programmers: your > buggy program just created a filename with {control characters, leading > dash (-), leading slash (/), '*', etc} in it. How do you delete it? Quickest general method is "rm -i *", though you may sometimes need "rm -i .*" instead/as well. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 11 06:56:00 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: Ward Donald Griffiths III "Re: Files as files" (Jun 11, 4:20) References: <199806101510.AA19261@world.std.com> <9806101733.ZM12392@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9806111255.ZM19925@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 11, 4:20, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Unix started with a 14-char filename limit (and allowed [still does] > characters in filenames tricky to get at from the shell). I still have two disks with filenames which include DEL and NUL characters. > I always figured if you couldn't describe > what a file was for in 14 characters, you should be in a different > profession. The current fashion for doing things like including > things like extended version numbers in filenames does not change my > opinion. Nor mine :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Thu Jun 11 07:53:55 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: IBM 5363 II In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980610140848.4897bbd6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980611075355.0090fbc0@pop3.webzone.net> At 02:08 PM 6/10/98, you wrote: >OK what is an IBM 5363 II? I found one in a trift store. > > I've been told that the 5363 was a S/36 that designed to be a very low >cost entry into the 3X architecture and that it runs an operating systems >called SSP. So what is a 5363 II and what OS does it use? Is it worth >picking up and saving? Also does anyone know how to get around the password >protection? > > Joe > > I have a working 5363 that I use for data conversion work (mostly System/36 data files to PC formats). It isn't what I'd call a "fun machine," (we won't get into detail on "fun machines" since there may be children reading) being IBM it's _all business_. The OS is "System Support Programs," or SSP. Most of the S/36 machines had RPG II installed and a few had BASIC and perhaps ASM. There is also a COBOL for S/36, but I haven't been fortunate enough to stumble onto the distribution diskettes for it. There is a way around the security--there are a few System/36 consultants with web sites and one in particular (can't remember which) told me a while back that for a few $$ he would hack one for a customer of ours. You could probably find someone on comp.sys.ibm.sys3x.misc or comp.sys.ibm.as400.misc who knows the hack. That said, try user "MASTER" and passwd "PASS". IIRC, these were the defaults for admin and some sites never changed them (this is why "default" security settings are a bad thing). If I'm wrong about the defaults, email me and I'll wade through the manuals and find them again--or maybe some kind soul here knows and will correct me. Pick it up. If you decide you don't want the thing give me a holler and I'll buy it for spares for my 5363. -- David Wollmann dwollmann@ibmhelp.com From william at ans.net Thu Jun 11 09:05:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think William was referring to the PackardBell mainframes of the late > 60s and early 70s era. Hence, the mention of the model 250. Our own Tony > Duell has a Model 850. Yes, check out... http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/machines/PB-250.html William Donzelli william@ans.net From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 11 09:52:32 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: References: <357F226F.1E436EF4@crl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980611095232.00c3abd0@pc> At 08:26 PM 6/10/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Or the $1500 Lisa 2? That one went from $300 to $1500 in one bid, but it >only takes one sucker, err, collector. The auction sites are just like any other web site: you don't know what's really happening, such as if the transaction actually takes place at that price. Certainly the auction sites do not list their failure and debt-collection rates. I think the auction offers and supposed final bids are interesting to hear - they're at least as interesting as the brag-of-the-week from those lucky Silicon Valley and Redmond thrift-store cruisers who appear to be filling a U-Haul for $50 every weekend. On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Hell, I'd rather fix rams with my teeth the way the old Basque herders > used to than a Packard-Bell computer. At least us sheep ranchers understand your jokes. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 11 09:47:32 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <357F4E10.E3469171@cnct.com> References: <19980608193233.7642.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980611094732.00c14650@pc> At 11:25 PM 6/10/98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >(Compare the CLI to the Unix Bourne shell sometime -- you'll notice >that sense of similarity known as plagiarism.) Huh? The AmigaDOS CLI - and I'm talking 1.0 as opposed to later editions and common customization and corruptions that did smell like Unix by design - didn't seem like any Unix shell I knew. Its Tripos and BCPL origins seemed quite weird to my senses. And "plagiarism"? Don't you mean "tribute"? :-) - John From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Jun 11 09:58:59 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Firstly (based on other messages here), how have you connected the > monitor up? According to my Model 1 schematic, the monitor connector has > the video output on pin 4 and ground on pin 5 (the pins are numbered in > the order 1 4 2 5 3 of course). It could be something trivial like a bad > ground. Doh! Yes, Tony, your suspicion is correct. I had ASS-u-MEd that the ground was on the same pin as on every other machine with a 5-pin DIN video connector that I've played with. So I was using a stereo component cable, and using the appropriate RCA connector to bring pin 4 to the monitor. It looks like time to build a proper cable. Maybe somebody should take my collection away from me before I blow something up. ;) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From mor at crl.com Thu Jun 11 09:03:54 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items References: Message-ID: <357FE389.5FFCCF44@crl.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > Prices will only go up. Online auctions are still in the early adoption > > phase, and they're not making any new Old Computers, so supply continues > > to go down while demand goes up. You'll be able to retire on your > > Sinclair ZX-81 at this rate. > > One could only hope. But I question your assertion of supply going down. > I predict that supply could in fact go up! As people get word that morons > are buying up old computers like they were gold, all the old Apple ][s and > PETs and SYM-1s and what-not will be dug out of the closet/attic/cellar > and thrown up for bid. There are still plenty of computers out there. > Only some can be classified as truly rare, but nobody knows this for sure. > The very definition of "speculation"as it relates to collecting. There's no doubt this has been happening on eBay. More and more older computers are being listed with descriptions like "Collectors Look! Antique Computer!!!" Then you read the description and the sellers say things like, "We're not sure what this is and we have no way to test it, but surely some collector will be interested..." Gee, how about a test where you plug it in and turn it on? -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From mor at crl.com Thu Jun 11 09:13:06 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) References: Message-ID: <357FE5F2.225F208A@crl.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > > It's already happening. Most people that I've talked to that had to use > > the Altair hated it because of design problems. The Apple Lisa failed > > because it was too slow. It's kind of self-fullfilling rarity: a bad > > computer generally means one that they didn't make many of and not many > > people wanted to buy. The PC-Jr will probably be a prized collectible. > > One more thing: it is sort of ironic that total flops are only popular > today by way of their obscurity There's one word that sums all this up: Edsel. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 11 11:21:20 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Attn: Ward Griffiths In-Reply-To: <4277@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806111524.KAA16133@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Guys: I would address this to Ward directly, rather than to the list, but our jerked-around mail system now removes the original senders address. My apologies. Ward: Please e-mail me at: jeff.kaneko@ifrsys.com There's something I'd like to discuss with you. Thanks! Jeff We now return you to our regularly scheduled programme . . . . From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 11 11:13:19 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: FA: Various systems Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980610184558.3cb75100@ricochet.net> At 01:37 PM 6/10/98 EDT, you wrote: >This is NOT a flame, but i'm just wondering the point of posting items that >have been put up for sale on ebay, et al. all that means is every item will The point is that you thereby inform a whole passel of people that the items are for sale, including many who might not otherwise know. Gets the seller potentially higher prices. And, someone here might find out about something they really want. On the other hand, it may annoy some folks here. btw, it seems to me that prices on Haggle are not quite as wild as on ebay. (Though I do check ebay regularly too.) >is announced as being for sale, the subscribers to this group should get >first crack. Well, tyhat would be nice, but the collective "we" can't force anyone to do anything. This has come up before, and the consensus seems to be that it's a tough decision whether to offer things here (and be a hero) or on ebay (and get rich.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 11 11:13:26 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: FA: Various systems Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980610185009.3cb75100@ricochet.net> At 02:48 PM 6/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >Actually, the ad was for auctions at Haggle Online, http://www.haggle.com. (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more...) 8^) For them not familiar with it, Haggle is kinda like ebay, though less crowded. More importantly, it is also building an online museum of classic computers. This is probably due to our own Doug Salot somehow being involved in the whole mess... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 11 11:13:33 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980610185634.3cb76450@ricochet.net> At 02:48 PM 6/10/98 PDT, you wrote: >Is this device better than a mouse, in your opinion? Is it an ADB >device? Is it better than a mouse? Is Ben & Jerry's Phish Food better than a rotten banana? Is a Jaguar XK8 better than totalled Ford Aspire? Yes, it's better. Unfortunately, it's an integral part of the Outbound case, and therefore not applicable to any other computer. The outbound, if you're unfamiliar with it, is a Mac Clone laptop. There are two models; mine sports a 68030, and uses a standard 2.5" IDE laptop hard drive. Great machine. (If my screen wasn't ferschimmled I'd be using it all the time.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 11 11:13:43 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980610190033.3cb76bc0@ricochet.net> At 11:18 PM 6/10/98 +0000, you wrote: >> >Dash '030 from (iirc) 68000 systems. It's an actual Mac II-type > >Apparently very popular (at one time, at least) with prepress houses. Yes; one of mine came from a company called Landor Associates that was responsible for recent Olympic Logos, Radio Shack's latest logo, Most (if not all) of McDonald's packaging and branding, and a lot of Microsoft's packaging/branding. Great company, and good at what they do. (In addition to the Dash, they had an outbound running around, but I don't know what happened to it.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 11 11:13:49 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Microsoft's Computer Museum Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980610190231.3cb7681c@ricochet.net> At 12:47 AM 6/11/98 +0100, you wrote: >That makes me wonder if they're going to attempt to rewrite history >_again_... After all the Altair (it was the Altair, wasn't it) was hardly Well, possibly, but the optimist in me says that maybe, just maybe, they'll do it right, what with all that money they have laying around.... (Pardon me, while I go kill said optimist. Feel free to continue laughing...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From red at bears.org Thu Jun 11 13:39:40 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Bit slices? Message-ID: Hej allesammen; What's a 'bit slice'? Are they served with a twist of lemon? I suppose a better way of asking that is how is a 'bit sliced' processor or ALU differentiated from a 'normal' one? ok r. From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 11 13:43:28 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <9806111258.ZM19989@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jun 11, 3:36, Doug Yowza wrote: > > > That used to be one of my interview questions for Unix programmers: your > > buggy program just created a filename with {control characters, leading > > dash (-), leading slash (/), '*', etc} in it. How do you delete it? > > Quickest general method is "rm -i *", though you may sometimes need > "rm -i .*" instead/as well. If you had a file named "-f" in your directory, then "rm -i *" would happily delete all of the files in the directory without prompting you. "rm -i ./*" would be better, but would not work for files with control characters or spaces. If you wanted to stick with the "-i" approach, then "cd .. ; rm -r -i dir" would be the best bet (assuming your rm had a -r option to recurse). -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 11 14:18:41 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Bit slices? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > I suppose a better way of asking that is how is a 'bit sliced' processor > or ALU differentiated from a 'normal' one? I'm no architect (but I play one on TV), but bit-sliced processors can be cascaded to build up larger-word machines. E.g., you can take two 4-bit ALU slices and make an 8-bitter. BTW, I mentioned a while back that I wrote a simulation of a PDP-8 built from 2901's. I finally found the source code for everything but the assembler (but I did find a grammar spec). It's not in good enough shape to "publish", and I don't plan to spend the time to get it there, but if anybody wants a copy, let me know and I'll send you source. (It's curses-based, and should run fine on any Unix or DOS box). -- Doug From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Jun 11 14:35:26 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Bit slices? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980611123526.007b4830@mail.sfu.ca> Bit slice processors are designed so that they can be ganged together with suitable interconnection, making an 8 bit ALU out of 2 - 4 bit units, etc. Generally good for accumulators etc with more complex instruction decoding outboard. My 2 cents... Kevin At 02:39 PM 11/06/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Hej allesammen; > >What's a 'bit slice'? Are they served with a twist of lemon? > >I suppose a better way of asking that is how is a 'bit sliced' processor >or ALU differentiated from a 'normal' one? > >ok >r. > > > From icyblackhand at hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 14:42:26 1998 From: icyblackhand at hotmail.com (Michael Sheflin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Mac Portable Power Supply Message-ID: <19980611194227.4623.qmail@hotmail.com> I was wondering if anyone had a Mac Portable power supply, and wanted to sell it cheap. Thanks :), Mike Sheflin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jun 11 15:04:32 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo References: Message-ID: <199806112004.NAA20975@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Rax wrote: > >> Final Demo of the Xerox Star Workstation > >> 5:30 to 7:00pm > >> Wednesday June 17th > >> Auditorium Xerox PARC > > For those from the Bay Area who plan to attend: Anyone want to get together > for a beer afterwards? Might be fun to meet some of the disembodied voices > on the list. This is co-sponsored by The Computer Museum History Center, right? Then there will likely be drinks and hors doeurves(sp)^W^Wfancy munchies following the presentation. That's probably a good a time as any. > Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. So now we all know how to spot you, right? As for me, I'm the guy who was taking notes on his palmtop computer during the presentation. 5'11", slacks, white shirt w/vertical stripes, no tie, gold-capped Parker pen in shirt pocket if not in hand. ... As for what's next, Paul Coad and I were recently talking about the idea that we (being interested computer collectors in the San Francisco Bay Area or some subset thereof) get together on the second Wednesday of each month for dinner, yakking, bragging about our latest k00l f1nd5, waving our appendages at each other and so forth. Sounds like a plan to me, except that, well, the second Wednesday was yesterday and I've been preoccupied with other stuff and not got round to getting the notice out 'til now. I've had this sort of conversation with some other folks on the list too. Y'all know who you are. It's time to get it under way, and at least Paul and I are gonna be there. The only requirement for participation is interest and showing up. Oh, and you gotta pay for your meal. So, what do y'all think? Who's up for it? The date is flexible. So is the location, but I'm thinking somewhere in Santa Clara County because that seems to be where the preponderance of folks I know about are. Maybe weekend days are better than weeknights for the folks less near Santa Clara County, I know they would be for me if this were somewhere else. -Frank McConnell From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 15:33:07 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) Message-ID: <19980611203308.13420.qmail@hotmail.com> Before we go any further, which Packard Bells are we talking about? I don't know the old ones (I rescued a 286 PB still in the box from a compactor about a year ago and hid it where I thought it would be safe; I doubt they will ever get that ceramic off the dumpster's ram), but the new ones are ugly and had that stupid navigator thing that looked like screenshots from Myst (do they still?). But, how bad can a design get (am I asking for it?)? >You mean there's a difference? :) > >Packard Bell: Today's headache, tomorrow's obscure collectible. Hey, you >never know: People might start collecting only the badly designed systems. >It could happen. > > >- >- john higginbotham ____________________________ >- webmaster www.pntprinting.com - >- limbo limbo.netpath.net - > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at wco.com Thu Jun 11 15:39:18 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: <199806112004.NAA20975@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 11 Jun 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > Wednesday of each month for dinner, yakking, bragging about our latest > k00l f1nd5, waving our appendages at each other and so forth. Sounds That's a scary thought. That would be an even scarier sight. > I've had this sort of conversation with some other folks on the list > too. Y'all know who you are. It's time to get it under way, and > at least Paul and I are gonna be there. Name the place, but just keep your fly zipped, eh? > So, what do y'all think? Who's up for it? The date is flexible. So > is the location, but I'm thinking somewhere in Santa Clara County > because that seems to be where the preponderance of folks I know about Well, keep in mind that I'm going to be starting up the VCF planning committe lunches in a week, and you know what that means...free lunch at Chili's! (courtesy of VCF :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 15:53:27 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Files as files Message-ID: <19980611205327.19690.qmail@hotmail.com> In general, file systems seem to fit into several simple categories. Let's say UNIX-like, DOS-like, simple (just data), and that's about it I've looked at Apple manuals, and the Apple ][ format is kinda like DOS in terms of having an array of blocks and stuff. Except Apple's is quite a bit more elegant. Since some people here are fond of praising the VAX, how does its file system work (typically)? > >That used to be one of my interview questions for Unix programmers: your >buggy program just created a filename with {control characters, leading >dash (-), leading slash (/), '*', etc} in it. How do you delete it? > >Does anybody collect file systems? That would be semi-useful for somebody >doing data recovery. I have no idea what the Newton "soup", for example, >looks like. One of my favorites was the Regulus (unix-like) filesystem. >It maintained a bitmap of free blocks and could easily allocate a best-fit >contiguous region for your file (I think they had an option to creat() for >contiguity). This made file access *fast* when you needed it. I still >find fragmentation a nightmare even on Linux. > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 16:04:35 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Mac Portable Power Supply Message-ID: <19980611210435.25123.qmail@hotmail.com> IF you mean the AC adaptor, you can use later ones (powerbook). This is actually beneficial because later ones are strong enough to power the machine alone, while the Mac Portable one needed the battery to be inside and working. I powered my mac portable for a few months w/two adaptors. The I put the battery in. Happily, it recharged fully from that high current (it was dead otherwise; I got the portable because it wouldn't start up because of the battery. I got it to run by hooking the battery up to mains AC long enough to "recharge" it). >I was wondering if anyone had a Mac Portable power supply, and wanted to >sell it cheap. > Thanks :), > Mike Sheflin > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 11 16:06:39 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <19980611205327.19690.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > In general, file systems seem to fit into several simple categories. > Let's say UNIX-like, DOS-like, simple (just data), and that's about it > I've looked at Apple manuals, and the Apple ][ format is kinda like > DOS in terms of having an array of blocks and stuff. Except Apple's > is quite a bit more elegant. Since some people here are fond of > praising the VAX, how does its file system work (typically)? The Newton "soup" is an object store rather than a directory hierarchy, and you'll probably see that paradigm more often in the future. I think Microsoft's "Cairo" road-map included turning the filesystem into an object store. "VAX" is a hardware architecture. Lots of people run Unix on VAXen. But the VAX-philopsophy was extreme CISC, and that extended to the VAX/VMS filesystem as well: record-based, with a zillion different file attributes, built-in file versioning, etc. It was hierarchial, but mixed with a clunky "volume" concept (something like DOS "C:", but with longer names). -- Doug From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu Jun 11 16:09:21 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <19980611205327.19690.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 11, 98 01:53:27 pm Message-ID: <199806112109.RAA22809@shell.monmouth.com> > Let's say UNIX-like, DOS-like, simple (just data), and that's about it > I've looked at Apple manuals, and the Apple ][ format is kinda like > DOS in terms of having an array of blocks and stuff. Except Apple's > is quite a bit more elegant. Since some people here are fond of > praising the VAX, how does its file system work (typically)? The Vax was something different from Unix and Dos. It had a bitmap to allow quick allocations. It also had the ability to create contiguous files to suport real time work. It had a layer called RMS which gave it indexed file access. Kind of like IBM mainframe stuff. Files could have a declared record size like they do on mainframes. Vax/VMS ODS-2 (the vax enhancement to the RDX11 ODS-1 file structure) actually supported multiple directories, multiple directory roots (many systems booting off different structures on one disk). Someone here should be able to point to some ODS-2 docs on the web. Bill From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 11 16:22:12 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: <199806112004.NAA20975@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 11, 98 01:04:32 pm Message-ID: <199806112122.OAA13958@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 933 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/7f65c29d/attachment.ksh From peacock at simconv.com Thu Jun 11 16:40:27 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Files as files Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E91F@NT486> > But the VAX-philopsophy was extreme CISC, and that extended to the VAX/VMS filesystem as well: record-based, with a zillion different file attributes, built-in file versioning, etc. It was hierarchial, but mixed with a clunky "volume" concept (something like DOS "C:", but with longer names). I wouldn't call it "clunky". In fact with VMS you can combine drives into a volume set if you want the filesystem spread across multiple drives, or you can treat each drive as an isolated filesystem. As a system admin, I prefer the separate volumes, makes it easier to manage overnight backups. In our VMScluster individual disks are backed up in parallel across several tape drives (as many as four tapes in operation at the same time, depending on day of week), a trivial task in VMS but a bit more elaborate on a Unix system. As for the RMS file attributes and versioning, they are a dream for programmers, compared to PC or Unix systems. We have NT or W95 workstations at every desk, but we still keep a VMScluster running, partly for financial apps, and partly for coding. When you start dealing with larger apps (i.e 3K-5K users per week, 300-500 at any one time in a 24 hour day, all accessing the same files) you start to appreciate what VMS can do. BTW, one nice advantage of filesystem per disk is drive shadowing in VMS. You can mirror two drives during the day, then break the set, remount the mirrored drive as a separate disk, back it up, then reconnect it back to the shadow set. Instant snapshot backup without shutting down applications, all the database files are intact as of the moment you broke the shadow set, no updates during the backup. Jack Peacock From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 11 15:48:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: online support (was: old laptop BIOS???) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980610085624.47d77490@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 10, 98 05:48:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1264 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/56b84a4c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 11 15:53:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:29 2005 Subject: Microsoft's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 10, 98 06:24:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 616 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/b8665d49/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 11 16:22:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <357F4FEE.39BAB960@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jun 10, 98 11:33:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2290 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/bc66de89/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 11 16:26:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 10, 98 08:57:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 520 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/bfd1f21e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 11 16:05:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 10, 98 06:57:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/3216f36b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 11 16:38:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <357FE389.5FFCCF44@crl.com> from "Greg Troutman" at Jun 11, 98 07:03:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1002 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/ad179532/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 11 16:44:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 11, 98 10:58:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1732 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/da494f2b/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 11 17:43:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Bit slices? Message-ID: <199806112243.AA26980@world.std.com> I suppose a better way of asking that is how is a 'bit sliced' processo <> or ALU differentiated from a 'normal' one? The concept was to take a vertical slice of the core of most cpus and make it so they can be cascaded to the needed width. Some of the common parts were the 3101 (intel 2 bit slice) and the 6701/2901 4 bit slices. Their advantages were speed, they were bipolar and in the 70 to early 80s you could make a z80 equivelent using them that was 10mhz and piplined. Or a custom 20 bit machine. Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > If someone on this list gets a rare machine, then (in general), he knows > how to look after it. To back up the disks and (if possible) the EPROMS > and PALs. To check things over before powering up for the first time. > > But a speculator could find a one-of-a-kind machine, not know what it > really is (other than an investment), and the machine could be lost to > bit-rot. And that bothers me. I wouldn't worry about this being a problem. The speculators so far have tended to stick with the popular names (IMSAI, Altair, PET, etc.) They wouldn't know what to do with something called a PERQ, and probably wouldn't want to touch a huge Philips P850, confusing it for an electrical distribution panel or something. Small and liquid is their mainstay, since that sells the easiest. Of course, some farmers in Montana recently auctioned a complete dinosaur skeleton to the highest bidder, so its not like it couldn't happen. But I would tend to think (and would hope) that an IBM 1401 would be passed up in favor of an Apple Lisa 2 by the unsavvy speculator should the two ever turn up next to each other at a flea market or whatnot. > Before I was seriously into old computers, I used to fiddle about with > valve radios. Most of the fun was getting an old set from a friend who > was clearing out the attic or buying one for a few pence and a jumble > sale, and then fiddling with it, repairing it, and getting it to work > again. I lost interested rather when the prices of these old sets went > through the roof. I still fiddle with them, and I still have my box of > valves and a valve tester, but... Well, the same is happening with computers. But you can still find the stuff out there, you just have to ask around and always be looking. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/07/98] From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 11 18:25:28 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Dash 030 (was: Early Mac Clones) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980611153015.091f9bfe@ricochet.net> At 12:57 AM 6/11/98 +0000, you wrote: >> nice servers for their time, with great cases. > >As for the rest.. smile when you say it, some of us still run IIx's and >IIfx's. :-) Sorry, what I meant was, at the time they came out, they were top-of-the-line. Today, with the advances since, they are simply great servers. (And, when I get the time to set it up, I fully intend to put one to use as a server for the Macs in Rachel's classroom.) >Seriously, though, there is an article on one of the MacTimes sites >which argues for using an older system as a server. Basically, it Also, if all you're doing is internet stuff, an older IIci or basic '486 is just fine. But that sort of thing that got a lot of us on this list in the first place. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 11 18:25:32 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IBM 700 Laptop Significance? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980611154138.091ff194@ricochet.net> At 08:13 PM 6/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >It's not even classic yet: > >GRID INTROS FIRST MS-DOS LAPTOP WITH BUILT-IN POINTER >BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS, U.S.A., 1990 >AUG 16 (NB) > -- Grid Systems Corporation has introduced the GridCase 1550sx, the first >PC-compatible lapto... Well, that just means it won't be priced outragiouslt on ebay. 8^) Definitely significant, though. >a mouse. I hate mice, and hate track-balls and other stationary pointers >only slightly less, but I *love* IBM's eraser head. Some people see this I agree in theory, but disagree with your conclusion. (Can't stand the eraser.) >A mouse requires you to remove your hands from the keyboard and switch [...] >if I have to move a stupid pointer across the screen, the eraser head >let's me keep most of my fingers on keys where they belong. Yes, but so does a trackball or trackpad centered below the keyboard (which is one of the main reasons I bought my current laptop.) Best of all, IMO is the tootsie-roll from the Outbound. Mostly, however, I stick to keyboard commands (my one complaint about the MacOS -- you can't pull down menus and such from the keyboard). I strongly feel that anything you want to do should be doable from the keyboard -- if you're willing to remember how. (Example: in MS Word, there is a keyboard command to set bold/underline/etc. If I used Word a lot, and used bold/underline/etc a lot, I would remember it. Instead, for the few times I do that, I don't mind using the mouse. On the other hand, I can do just about anything in Eudora without using a mouse-thingie.) I do use a trackball -- a Logitech Trackman Marble. It's comfortable, accurate, and simply works great. The advantage of a trackball/other over a mouse is that on a mouse, when you click, you are also moving (however slight) the moving part. With a trackball, you can take your thumb completely off the ball before clicking. And I'll shut up now lest I get flames for mumbling off-topic too much. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 11 18:25:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Mac Portable Power Supply Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980611161439.091749a4@ricochet.net> At 12:42 PM 6/11/98 PDT, you wrote: >I was wondering if anyone had a Mac Portable power supply, and wanted to >sell it cheap. Just get a (iirc) 7.5v PS with appropriate connector/polarity. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 11 18:25:39 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980611162102.091709ee@ricochet.net> At 01:04 PM 6/11/98 -0700, you wrote: >> >> Final Demo of the Xerox Star Workstation >> >> 5:30 to 7:00pm I'm really hoping to be there, but I still have to figure out how to get from Walnut Creek at 5pm to Palto Alo at 5:30... >Francisco Bay Area or some subset thereof) get together on the second >Wednesday of each month for dinner, yakking, bragging about our latest >k00l f1nd5, waving our appendages at each other and so forth. Sounds Ooh, I *love* waving my appendages, especially my phelanges! Only, Wednesdays, esp. the second wed are not good... Make it the second Thursday and you've got a deal. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 11 18:00:19 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Bit slices? In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Jun 11, 98 02:39:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1498 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980612/709f7288/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 11 19:03:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 11, 98 04:10:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2334 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980612/908a1581/attachment.ksh From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 11 19:09:40 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: CP/M software (was: Former Disk Costs) In-Reply-To: <357F8E51.44912786@cnct.com> References: <199806110708.RAA07033@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199806120009.KAA11668@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 03:59 AM 11-06-98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >Having heard such promises for longer than some list members have >been alive, I hope I will be forgiven for not wanting to count my >chickens until the eggs are all in one basket. True enough, but the fact that Knuth has had time to fully revise volumes 1 through 3 is some hope that progress will happen with the other volumes. I've just visited Knuth's home page (http://www-cs-staff.stanford.edu/~knuth/) and extraced the following: "The material will first appear in beta-test form as fascicles of approximately 128 pages each, issued approximately twice per year beginning in 1999. These fascicles will represent my best attempt to write a comprehensive account, but computer science has grown to the point where I cannot hope to be an authority on all the material covered in these books. Therefore I'll need feedback from readers in order to prepare the official volumes later. The publishers have pledged to make the fascicles available in an inexpensive form, essentially at cost. (Of course, the paper and binding will probably be designed to self-destruct in a few years, so that you will have to buy the real book after it is debugged:-) If all goes as planned, Volumes 4A, 4B, and 4C will be ready in the year 2004." So I guess we've got time to save up for Volume 4.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jun 11 19:24:36 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Mac Portable Power Supply Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980611202404.006d5f3c@netpath.net> Gotta be 2.0a though, at least that's what it says on the bottom of the unit. At 04:25 PM 6/11/98 -0700, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 12:42 PM 6/11/98 PDT, you wrote: >>I was wondering if anyone had a Mac Portable power supply, and wanted to >>sell it cheap. > >Just get a (iirc) 7.5v PS with appropriate connector/polarity. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jun 11 19:23:00 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: New Finds this week Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980611192300.006dae5c@pop3.concentric.net> >Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:10:55 -0500 >To: clasic >From: "John R. Keys Jr." >Subject: New Finds this week > >Well it's been slow since I got back from vacation but I found a couple good items: >1) Freeze Frame cartridge for the C64, has four dip switches 1&2 work the freeze frame and 3&4 are printer configuration for 4 different printers. Neat never seen or heard of this unit before. cost 10 cent at thrift. >2) Manual set for the LA50 printer all of them for 50 cent. >3) ICmemories manual from 1980 covering HITACHI #HLN100 25 cent >4) Freedom ONE terminal manual 25 cent >5) ACER710 user's guide 1987 25 cent >6) DisplayStation 88kp6 for $35 >7) Socrates program manual 11 cent >8) Commodore model 1541-II/1571-II/1581 power supply free >9) TRS80 Deluxe RS-232 program pak cat. 26-2226 with cable free >10) HP 2382A kb 1.00 >11) Tecmar tape unit for early Mac's only has two 9pin serial ports in back 1.00 not tested yet still had a cartridge in it. >12) and best for last a 'Starlet' Nec Portable computer model PC-8401A-LS that works off of 4 c batteries. No power came with it, cost $10. It has CP/M 2.2 in ROM from DRI 1982; Bios date is ver 1.0 1984; has a built in modem 300/1200; software in rom is WS, CALC, TELCOM, and FILER. This baby powers up very fast and seems work very well. I even put in some PIP commands. >Well that's it for now hope to have busy weekend lots of auction going on. Keep Computing John From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 19:28:57 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Files as files Message-ID: <19980612002858.19247.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, I never got this "object" stuff, it's kinda confusing because it tends to make much ado about nothing (in poor implementations, yes, but I've only seen poor ones, the Newton being very hard to understand in terms of how to use). As for VMS file attribs does anyone know how many there actually were? I counted the attribs Norton DiskEdit lets me change on the Mac (bundle, locked, bozo, init, etc.), and there are at least 30. >> DOS in terms of having an array of blocks and stuff. Except Apple's >> is quite a bit more elegant. Since some people here are fond of >> praising the VAX, how does its file system work (typically)? > >The Newton "soup" is an object store rather than a directory hierarchy, >and you'll probably see that paradigm more often in the future. I think >Microsoft's "Cairo" road-map included turning the filesystem into an >object store. > >"VAX" is a hardware architecture. Lots of people run Unix on VAXen. >But the VAX-philopsophy was extreme CISC, and that extended to the VAX/VMS >filesystem as well: record-based, with a zillion different file >attributes, built-in file versioning, etc. It was hierarchial, but mixed >with a clunky "volume" concept (something like DOS "C:", but with longer >names). > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 19:35:49 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <19980612003549.23395.qmail@hotmail.com> How does this soft-microcode thing work? Doesn't it imply that there is some kind of "sub-microcode" needed to load and process the soft one? Or was there a completely separate storage subsystem that booted first (which would essentially make it two computers)? Also, where was the microcode stored? Could you upgrade special "microcode cache" to store more complex microcode? Sounds pretty unusual! >and with a somewhat interesting design. > >The PERQ 1 was first sold in 1979 for (I think) $30000. For that you got >a personal computer (!) with about 1MIPS of computing power. You also got >a megabyte of memory, a bitmapped display (768*1024 points, portrait), >a blitter, a 20 bit CPU, a Z-80 based I/O processor, a hard disk, a >pointing device (normally a Sumagraphics bit pad 1), etc. Options >included networking (ethernet came out pretty soon after the first >machine) and a laser printer. > >All 'classic PERQs' (everything apart from the PERQ 3a) have a >soft-microcoded CPU that loads the microcode (and hence the instruction >set) from disk when the machine boots. Writing your own microcode is fun. >The PERQ 1a introduced the 16K CPU board with 4 times the control store >and other improvements (multiply/divide support, indexed addressing of >the _registers_) over the original 4K board. > >The PERQ 2's all had a revised I/O board with an extra serial port, >battery-backed real time clock and ethernet as standard. The multitasking >I/O software was only present on these boards AFAIK. You could add the >same I/O option boards to the PERQ 2's, so in theory you can have a PERQ >2 with 2 ethernet ports. > >Older PERQs were 20 bit. The rare PERQ 2T4 was 24 bit. > >If you're interested in finding out more, look at Bob Davis's PERQ web >page (a web search should find it). There's a number of text files there >which explain a few things. There's also a somewhat dead Usenet group, >alt.sys.perq, which would love some on-topic messages again :-). > >> here on the rebellious side of the Atlantic? (I know _nothing_ of > >They were a USA machine (3 Rivers Computer Corporation). But some bits >of the design were done by ICL in the UK, and they were sold by ICL. >They were also one of the standard machines supplied to UK universities, >which may explain why they're more common over here. > >> these machines beyond your messages, if I saw them advertised the >> references went into brain cells that have been foully murdered). > >> Ward Griffiths > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 19:45:16 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Mac Portable Power Supply Message-ID: <19980612004516.25283.qmail@hotmail.com> Again, the original was 1.5a, which was not enough to power the machine w/a dead battery. 2.0a came w/ the first powerbook, and works fine. (didn't I find this out on this list over a year ago?) > >At 04:25 PM 6/11/98 -0700, Uncle Roger wrote: >>At 12:42 PM 6/11/98 PDT, you wrote: >>>I was wondering if anyone had a Mac Portable power supply, and wanted to >>>sell it cheap. >> >>Just get a (iirc) 7.5v PS with appropriate connector/polarity. > >- >- john higginbotham ____________________________ >- webmaster www.pntprinting.com - >- limbo limbo.netpath.net - > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rax at warbaby.com Thu Jun 11 20:55:25 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <357F226F.1E436EF4@crl.com> References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E91C@NT486> Message-ID: Greg wrote: Does anyone think this sort of thing will continue/escalate long-term? > I don't think it's a fad. Vintage computers are collectible and, like any collectible, will usually only increase in value (except for my 1400 mint copies of Howard The Duck comic, but that's another story). Computers have all the criteria to make them desirable collectibles - coolness, nostalgia value, and scarcity (since most old computers were considered useless and therefore scrapped). There is also the additional factor that those for whom they provide a hit of nostalgia are now successful programmers and others in the high-tech biz who often have more disposable income than search time and are therefore willing to pay the price to get what they want when they want it. I predict that the market will escalate rapidly over the next five years. If you have the space, I would strongly suggest not only holding on to your collection, even the stuff you consider common, but grabbing anything you can for the next couple of years. Of course, thats just MHO. On the other hand, I bought vintage photographs in the sixties when they were going for next-to-nothing and cleaned up in the eighties. Anybody want to buy some Howard The Duck comics? R. BTW - Another thought on the eBay prices - those of us who live in CA, NY, MA and other areas where computers were common in the early days tend to become somewhat jaded about all the stuff we find. In other areas, vintage computers are almost non-existant. It's not so much a matter of ignorance, but of availability that drives the prices up. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From rax at warbaby.com Thu Jun 11 21:06:17 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: <199806112004.NAA20975@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: Frank wrote: >As for what's next, Paul Coad and I were recently talking about the >idea that we (being interested computer collectors in the San >Francisco Bay Area or some subset thereof) get together on the second >Wednesday of each month for dinner, yakking, bragging about our latest >k00l f1nd5, waving our appendages at each other and so forth. Count me in. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jun 11 20:21:35 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Mac Portable Power Supply Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980611212120.006c0358@netpath.net> On the bottom of the Mac Portable I have sitting right here, it says 7.5v 2.0a. The injection molded plastic never lies... or does it? This is a model 5120, non-backlit. Maybe the backlit version took 1.5a? At 05:45 PM 6/11/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: >Again, the original was 1.5a, which was not enough to power the >machine w/a dead battery. 2.0a came w/ the first powerbook, and works >fine. >(didn't I find this out on this list over a year ago?) - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From mor at crl.com Thu Jun 11 19:45:46 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items References: Message-ID: <35807A3A.52C0D308@crl.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > There's no doubt this has been happening on eBay. More and more older > > computers are being listed with descriptions like "Collectors Look! > > Antique Computer!!!" Then you read the description and the sellers say > > things like, "We're not sure what this is and we have no way to test it, > > but surely some collector will be interested..." Gee, how about a test > > where you plug it in and turn it on? > > No, Bad, Bad idea... > > I'd much rather have something that's untested (and which I've got a fair > chance of repairing) than something that was damaged by being switched on > without checking PSUs, fans, etc first. Admittedly this is more of a > problem for old radios than old computers, but anyway. I wasn't referring to anything extraordinary. To the average high-volume junk peddler on eBay, an Apple IIc has become a "Rare Collectible Antique Computer!!!" and a TRS-80 Model 1 is now officially "The First Computer Ever!" -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 11 20:46:15 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Files as files Message-ID: <199806120146.AA08113@world.std.com> contiguity). This made file access *fast* when you needed it. I still <>find fragmentation a nightmare even on Linux. Some file systems do more poorly than others with fragmentation. For the best fragmentation is a mild performance hit, in that it will take more disk seeks to find all the peices. For others (RT-11, NS*DOS) you can have an almost empty disk that is effectively full as the OS cannot allocate space peicemeal. VMS, DOS and CP/M perform well with fragmented files. Allison From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Jun 11 21:33:35 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: WeirdStuff PCjr Message-ID: <19980611193335.057de71b.in@mail.pressstart.com> >Hardly. There were plenty of those made too. I've got at least 5 now, >and I just added one today from the WeirdStuff sealed bid auction (I >couldn't resist, it came with some cool carthridges including Imagic's >Demon Attack [who knew Imagic made carts for the PCjr!?] and an >internal PCjr modem). >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com I'm glad you mentioned that. One of the pallets I got had a PCjr power supply on it. Did yours come with one? [who knew Imagic made carts for the PCjr!?] That's still not as cool as my two cartridge set of Lotus 123 for the PCjr. ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jun 11 19:52:50 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: That Unique taste? Re: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: <357F3D5E.B5B87A3E@cnct.com> References: <19980609001051.12756.qmail@hotmail.com> <357CA501.3A4C@geocities.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980611195250.442751a8@intellistar.net> At 10:13 PM 6/10/98 -0400, Ward wrote: >Hell, I'd rather fix rams with my teeth the way the old Basque herders >used to than a Packard-Bell computer. >-- >Ward Griffiths Hmmm, like that taste do you Ward? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jun 11 19:54:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Clueless Museums (was: Final Xerox Star demo) In-Reply-To: References: <357F3D5E.B5B87A3E@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980611195455.447ff3b4@intellistar.net> At 07:23 PM 6/10/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >> Hell, I'd rather fix rams with my teeth the way the old Basque herders >> used to than a Packard-Bell computer. > >This should be added to the FAQ. > >Sam Well you can bet I'll dammed sure keep my distance from Ward! Joe From adam at merlin.net.au Thu Jun 11 20:09:44 1998 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Probably ignorant question re. Commodore Monitors In-Reply-To: References: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 8, 98 01:27:37 pm Message-ID: Hi! I finally got a Commodore monitore for one of my C64's - most people seem to be charging around $90 for them, and that seemsed far too much. But I picked up one with two C64's and a couple of disk drives for $30. Anyway, the point is that I was wondering if I can use some of my other stuff on it, most notably the Amiga CD-32 and the 3DO. Sorry, but I don't know the model of the monitor. :( (It is a monotone one, though, and it is two tones of gray - a darker gray on the front, and the back section is a lighter shade). The problem is that it has two video inputs, one for the picture and one for the chroma. Is it possible to take a normal signal and split it accordingly, or should I just look for a more standard colour monitor? Thanks heaps, Adam. From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 11 21:58:44 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E91F@NT486> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Jack Peacock wrote: > As for the RMS file attributes and versioning, they are a dream for > programmers, compared to PC or Unix systems. We have NT or W95 > workstations at every desk, but we still keep a VMScluster running, > partly for financial apps, and partly for coding. When you start > dealing with larger apps (i.e 3K-5K users per week, 300-500 at any one > time in a 24 hour day, all accessing the same files) you start to > appreciate what VMS can do. It depends on your philosophy, I guess. Both DEC and Microsoft are in the "everything belongs in the OS" camp, whereas Unix came from the "simple is beautiful" school. The latter assumes that database vendors are probably better at building database engines than OS vendors are. Have you ever used a product called ClearCase? It basically maps a database engine / version control system to a Unix filesystem. It's very powerful, but I wouldn't want to use it or have the overhead associated with it if I didn't actually need it. Most people don't need it. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 11 22:08:06 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <19980612002858.19247.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > OK, I never got this "object" stuff, it's kinda confusing because it > tends to make much ado about nothing. Everybody agrees that computers are made up of two kinds of stuff: code and data. The procedure-heads say "keep the two separate, and the code is the main thing." The object-heads say "the two are tightly coupled, and let the data be the focus." When you deal with a traditional filesystem, it's kind of up to you to figure out what the data is and what application it was meant to be used with. Sometimes you guess wrong, and try to "type" binary data, for example. Object stores "know" the application(s) associated with data, and generally allow you to apply a consistent set of operations to that data. For example, if you say "print that object", the system will automagically invoke the code that knows how to print that data, no matter what the internal format happens to be. It's one less thing for you to have to remember (and one more thing Microsoft can screw-up). -- Doug From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 11 22:47:36 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza "Re: Files as files" (Jun 11, 13:43) References: Message-ID: <9806120447.ZM20881@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 11, 13:43, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Quickest general method is "rm -i *", though you may sometimes need > > "rm -i .*" instead/as well. It doesn't matter for "rm" since it won't delete directories unless you add "-r" but for some other commands , "xx .?*" may be preferable to "xx .*". > If you had a file named "-f" in your directory, then "rm -i *" would > happily delete all of the files in the directory without prompting you. > > "rm -i ./*" would be better, but would not work for files with control > characters or spaces. It does on SystemV-based systems, and others I've tried. And "rm -i *" prompts even with "-f". > If you wanted to stick with the "-i" approach, then "cd .. ; rm -r -i dir" > would be the best bet (assuming your rm had a -r option to recurse). AFAIK, all rm's have -r. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Jun 11 23:13:10 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (nerdware@laidbak.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IBM service rig? Message-ID: <199806120410.XAA24716@garcon.laidbak.com> Hi guys. I just picked up an IBM type 9075 laptop. The label on the inside (where the keyboard is) says it's an Aptek Personal Service Communicator II. It's got a 9.5" monochrome screen, a built-in thermal printer, what appears to be a modem jack, a screw-on (not BNC) rf-type jack, a socket for a pcmcia-type RAM card, and what appears to be a breakout box connector on the back. No floppy. Is this a field service terminal? If not, just what the heck is it? Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 11 23:25:57 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <9806120447.ZM20881@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > "rm -i ./*" would be better, but would not work for files with control > > characters or spaces. > > It does on SystemV-based systems, and others I've tried. Holy Cow. You're right: "rm -i *" is not the same as "rm -i `echo *`" (shell expansion is smarter than I thought, but it may depend on the shell). > And "rm -i *" prompts even with "-f". Not on Linux, at least. > AFAIK, all rm's have -r. I know -r is a fairly recent addition to "cp", but you may be right about "rm". Anybody have a V1 system they can test on? :-) -- Doug From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 11 23:25:24 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IIRC References: Message-ID: <3580ADB4.945C14F0@rain.org> Somehow, I should probably already know what IIRC stands for, but can someone enlighten me please. I should have asked years ago :). From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Jun 11 23:46:23 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IIRC Message-ID: <001701bd95bd$1cea0be0$10010bce@fauradon> Well, "If I Recall Corectly" that's what it means. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 11:29 PM Subject: IIRC >Somehow, I should probably already know what IIRC stands for, but can >someone enlighten me please. I should have asked years ago :). > From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Jun 11 23:43:39 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Spotted: PDP 11-23 stuff for sale Message-ID: <3584b1d7.88253161@hoser> The usual disclaimers apply... >In enclosed 19" rack with metal door. 50" x 26" x 30" > >PDP 11-23+ Comm interface PCB's and 2 RL02 drives. > >Was running prod line when de-installed. > >Equipment is located in the metro Atlanta Ga area. > >Email offers.... > > Dick Perron >http://www.randomc.com/~dperr/pc_hdwe.htm >dperr@randomc.com > >"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't.....will happen." -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 11 23:55:20 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IIRC In-Reply-To: <001701bd95bd$1cea0be0$10010bce@fauradon> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Francois wrote: > Well, "If I Recall Corectly" that's what it means. BTW, whatever happened to lisard/communa? The consistency with which "they" used pronouns was impressive: IIRC -> iwrc. -- Doug From kyrrin at jps.net Fri Jun 12 00:21:36 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: FW: FREE IBM System/38 needs rescue! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980611222136.00e5ad10@mail.jps.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1652 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980611/6999ffc5/attachment.bin From kyrrin at jps.net Fri Jun 12 00:29:46 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (kyrrin@jps.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: FW: VAX Manuals available Message-ID: <3581bc8c.1208144980@smtp.wa.jps.net> Found the following on Usenet. Please contact this guy directly if interested. -=-=- -=-=- From: "Joe Huber" Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: need to get rid of Vax manuals Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:07:50 -0500 Organization: ANET Internet Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6ln059$8o0$1@news1.anet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dal-vd1-112.anet-dfw.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news1.anet.com!not-for-mail I have a nearly complete set of VAX/VMS 5.5-2 manuals in 3-ring binder format. There are also bound manuals for DecForms (still in the plastic wrapper), DecPrinting services, several other things. I sold my VAX but the buyer did not want the manuals. I hate to throw them out. I'll "sell" them for the cost of shipping. Please respond via email if interested. Thanks! -- Joe Huber jhuber@anet-dfw.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jun 12 01:00:35 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IBM service rig? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980611225844.4de74802@ricochet.net> At 11:13 PM 6/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >I just picked up an IBM type 9075 laptop. The label on the inside (where the >keyboard is) says it's an Aptek Personal Service Communicator II. It's got a The PC Radio. Take a look at ; is yours the same? If so, do you have a power supply? I think I've got the info I have on the web page... It was designed for service people to communicate with the home office. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From archive at navix.net Fri Jun 12 02:19:31 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IIRC References: <3580ADB4.945C14F0@rain.org> Message-ID: <3580D682.3BCC78B3@navix.net> Marvin wrote: > Somehow, I should probably already know what IIRC stands for, but can > someone enlighten me please. I should have asked years ago :-) Let's see... IIRC, it stands for If I Remember Correctly. That is, IIRC. :-) CORD -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 12 05:57:46 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IIRC References: <3580ADB4.945C14F0@rain.org> Message-ID: <358109AA.F01C2007@cnct.com> Marvin wrote: > > Somehow, I should probably already know what IIRC stands for, but can > someone enlighten me please. I should have asked years ago :). If I remember correctly, it stands for "If I Remember Correctly". -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 12 06:01:00 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza "Re: Files as files" (Jun 11, 23:25) References: Message-ID: <9806121201.ZM21207@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 11, 23:25, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > And "rm -i *" prompts even with "-f". > > Not on Linux, at least. > > > AFAIK, all rm's have -r. > > I know -r is a fairly recent addition to "cp", but you may be right about > "rm". Anybody have a V1 system they can test on? :-) I wish :-) "-r" certainly was an option to "rm" in 7th Edition, and IIRC (see other thread :-)) "-i" overrides "-f" there too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From fauradon at pclink.com Fri Jun 12 06:27:00 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IIRC Message-ID: <001601bd95f5$04c9c4a0$4c020bce@fauradon> I've seen Him/Them Beign flamed about it on some newsgroup (pretty funny too), other than that Have no idea. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 11:56 PM Subject: Re: IIRC >On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Francois wrote: > >> Well, "If I Recall Corectly" that's what it means. > >BTW, whatever happened to lisard/communa? The consistency with which >"they" used pronouns was impressive: IIRC -> iwrc. > >-- Doug > From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 12 07:16:29 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Bit slices? In-Reply-To: <199806112243.AA26980@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > I'd love to see that... I have a big bunch of 2901s doing nothing. OK, you asked for it.... The year was 1988, the language was C, and the result was a budding software jockey's interpretation of how hardware should work. Get out your 2901's, get ready to wire-wrap your MAR and MBR, it's time for: ftp://ftp.yowza.com/pub/pdp8-2901.tgz -- Doug From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 12 07:17:56 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IIRC Message-ID: I've seen him/her/them/it post on alt.folklore.computers about several topics recently, IIRC. david In a message dated 98-06-12 00:56:28 EDT, you write: << BTW, whatever happened to lisard/communa? The consistency with which "they" used pronouns was impressive: IIRC -> iwrc. -- Doug >> From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 12 08:21:27 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 11, 98 09:58:44 pm Message-ID: <199806121321.GAA07301@saul5.u.washington.edu> > Have you ever used a product called ClearCase? It basically maps a > database engine / version control system to a Unix filesystem. It's very > powerful, but I wouldn't want to use it or have the overhead associated > with it if I didn't actually need it. Most people don't need it. I did an internship at Siemens Business Communication Systems, Inc. (which was Siemens ROLM at the time). We used ClearCase on a bunch of Suns running SunOS. It was a pretty slick program, though it used a kernel device driver to do its magic (I don't know much about UNIX loadable kernel modules -- perhaps my suspicion has leaked over from my MS-DOS experience). Unfortunately, the project that we all were using ClearCase for was cancelled, and I started work on another project, which did NOT use ClearCase. The 2nd project was a rather slovenly bunch of code with a simpleminded makefile. (And comments in German.) On that project I got to experience the joy of a cross-debugger running on TI DSP hardware and a so-so C compiler (and an odd linker, though that was actually OK). When I finally tracked down the manual for the debugger (to see how to get it to work under "real" X Windows -- most everyone else was using OpenLook -- it had all kinds of ominous notices like "Preliminary" and "The following routines SHOULD work." (It was a third-party product.) It also gave me the option of using SunView. :) BTW, I hate the way OpenLook adheres to the X (Athena?) conventions except when it doesn't. The way it abuses resource files is shameful, especially since resources are one of the great things about X. Of course, the ugly apps don't help matters at all. These two packages may have been a big factor in ROLM's sticking with the old Sun set-up they had. I think they're using PC's now, though. Yes, I know this message isn't really about ClearCase... but I thought my story might be worth sharing. I hope it isn't typical but I suspect it is. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 12 08:23:26 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: IIRC In-Reply-To: <3580ADB4.945C14F0@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 11, 98 09:25:24 pm Message-ID: <199806121323.GAA32379@saul5.u.washington.edu> > Somehow, I should probably already know what IIRC stands for, but can > someone enlighten me please. I should have asked years ago :). It stands for "If I recall correctly." ... that is, IIRC. :) -- Derek From archive at navix.net Fri Jun 12 11:17:19 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:30 2005 Subject: Pre-Color Computer Terminal?? Message-ID: <3581548E.147BCC39@navix.net> Woops... sorry, I didn't include my e-mail address, name, etc., on the header of my first e-mail here. Again, problems with my mail software and just some tempory settings. I'm really not anonomous, just appear to be on my last e-mail. Thanks, CORD COSLOR archive@navix.net -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From a at aol.com Fri Jun 12 11:14:26 1998 From: a at aol.com (Model) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Pre-Color Computer Terminal?? Message-ID: <358153E0.4F5188E1@navix.net> Greets! I was wondering if anyone might have any information on an old machine produced by Tandy/Radio Shack. It came out _prior_ to the Color Computer, but it looked like a CoCo. However, it was a modified with a phone jack in the back for a TV/monitor and ran off of a 6809E (???). It basically was a videotext terminal of some sort. If anyone might have some information on this little unit, your help in learning more about it, and it's purposes, and maybe some history on it, would be much appreciated. Oh, yeh... an off-topic question? Is this text formatted correctly. I had some problems with my mail software and had it completely messed up trying to fix the original problem. Anyway, let me know if the text is going off the right of your screen or whatever, and if my signature box at the bottom of the page is formatted ok, ok? If it is, great! If something's wrong, feel free to send a private e-mail back to me to let me know ok? Thanks, CORD COSLOR -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From archive at navix.net Fri Jun 12 11:57:12 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Pre-Color Computer Terminal?? References: <3581548E.147BCC39@navix.net> Message-ID: <35815DE7.C5A5576@navix.net> Heck, maybe my last message didn't get through! A LOT of problems around here lately!! :-( Here it is again, if it didn't make it: --------------------------------------------- Greets! I was wondering if anyone might have any information on an old machine produced by Tandy/Radio Shack. It came out _prior_ to the Color Computer, but it looked like a CoCo. However, it was a modified with a phone jack in the back for a TV/monitor and ran off of a 6809E (???). It basically was a videotext terminal of some sort. If anyone might have some information on this little unit, your help in learning more about it, and it's purposes, and maybe some history on it, would be much appreciated. Oh, yeh... an off-topic question? Is this text formatted correctly. I had some problems with my mail software and had it completely messed up trying to fix the original problem. Anyway, let me know if the text is going off the right of your screen or whatever, and if my signature box at the bottom of the page is formatted ok, ok? If it is, great! If something's wrong, feel free to send a private e-mail back to me to let me know ok? Thanks, CORD COSLOR -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| Cord Coslor wrote: > Woops... sorry, I didn't include my e-mail address, name, etc., on > the header of my first e-mail here. Again, problems with my mail > software and just some tempory settings. > > I'm really not anonomous, just appear to be on my last e-mail. > > Thanks, > > CORD COSLOR > archive@navix.net > From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Fri Jun 12 11:46:49 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Fw: Reparir of my 8514/A monitor Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980612114649.007f36d0@wingate> Anyone have any pulled MA3172s they can help this gent with or know of a source for them? All I have are dead 8514s and I'm not good with a soldering iron--I don't think this fella would want to buy/ship the whole monitor just for the chip and I would destroy it if I tried to pull it. >Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:46:46 +0200 >From: Ognjen Seslija >Organization: TEKON computers >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) >To: dwollmann@ibmhelp.com >Subject: Reparir of my 8514/A monitor > >Dear Sirs, >About ten years ago, i've bought an IBM PS/2 model 80 with IBM 8514/A >monitor. >My monitor is not operational any longer due to the malfunction of one >hybrid >chip MA3172. >Can one bye this chip somewhere in NY city? >If so, please email me about an adress of your shop in NY, so I can tell >my friend who lives there where to buy it. > >Thank You very much. > >Ognjen Seslija >TEKON computers, Belgrade, Yugoslavia > -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. -- Your Personal Computers may be not be Year 2000 compliant! -- For information on how Year 2000 may affect your PCs and prototype IBM Year 2000 diagnostics and fixes: http://www.ibm.com/pc/year2000/ From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Jun 12 13:24:46 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Unix filenames and drum memory (was: Files as files) Message-ID: <199806121824.OAA17950@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: ] That used to be one of my interview questions for Unix programmers: your ] buggy program just created a filename with {control characters, leading ] dash (-), leading slash (/), '*', etc} in it. How do you delete it? Oh shoot. And I thought I was Unix-competent. I thought the only way to put a slash in a filename was with a low-level filesystem hack. I mean, the OS calls themselves will take "a/b" to mean file "b" in directory "a", right? It isn't up to your program to parse the filename that way. That isn't something you can get get around, even with any ordinary sort of bug. Is it? Of course, given root permission, you could run the appropriate disk utility, open /dev/root as a file, find the directory block, and put anything you like in a filename. But then you would have to do the same thing to access that file or get rid of it, wouldn't you? How could 'rm' get around that? ObCC: I just noticed /dev/drum on a Dec here. Now I *know* there is not a drum on this thing, so this must be a holdover from some earlier implementation of some Unix. True? Were filesystems on drums managed the same as those on disks? I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be, offhand. But I thought drums died out before Unix appeared. Does anyone still have a functional magnetic drum memory? That would be one _awesome_ peripheral. :-) Bill. From franke at sbs.de Fri Jun 12 15:46:22 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Unix filenames and drum memory (was: Files as files) Message-ID: <199806121834.UAA01330@marina.fth.sbs.de> > ObCC: I just noticed /dev/drum on a Dec here. Now I *know* there > is not a drum on this thing, so this must be a holdover from some > earlier implementation of some Unix. True? Were filesystems on > drums managed the same as those on disks? I don't see any reason > why they wouldn't be, offhand. But I thought drums died out before > Unix appeared. Does anyone still have a functional magnetic drum > memory? That would be one _awesome_ peripheral. :-) No, no functional drum, but I own _parts_ of a drum from an SIEMENS 2002 - this wasn't a storage drum like later on, this computer stored the (working) REGISTERS on the drum (Background: the 2002 was the first fully transistorized computer). Thats prior to core memory tek. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jun 12 13:46:45 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300's Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980612114809.63a71c2e@ricochet.net> Found a stack of AT&T computers. Some are labelled "PC 6300" (The unix PC, iirc?) but others are marked "6300 WGS", a designation I've not heard of before. In any case, is anyone interested in them? They're available at a good price. Condition unknown, possible monitors/keyboards, but dunno. Lemme know if I should pick 'em up. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jun 12 13:46:50 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980612115007.63a738fe@ricochet.net> Does anyone know of a *cheap* source of a VGA-compatible display? What I'm looking for, especially, is low power usage, followed by compactness and portability. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From peacock at simconv.com Fri Jun 12 14:07:05 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Unix filenames and drum memory (was: Files as files) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E925@NT486> True? Were filesystems on drums managed the same as those on disks? I don't see any reasonwhy they wouldn't be, offhand. But I thought drums died out before Unix appeared. I last used a drum on a Univac 1106 (FASTRAND II), the file system was the same as a disk drive. A drum is just a 2 dimensional disk, track and sector but no head select. Univac had fixed head drums and moving head drums, don't recall the capacity (it wasn't all that big). The drums on the 1106 were retired in 1971 when it was upgraded to a dual processor 1108 with a room full of short stack disk drives (20MB packs). Good thing too, the reliability on the drum wasn't so great, heads would often get out of alignment, you would suddenly have half of your file and half of someone else's. BTW, as a bit of trivia, a friend of mine who worked for the CIA in Vietnam had the job of actually grinding off all the oxide on retired disks and drums, so there would be no possibility of recovering data from them. Might be one reason they are so scarce now. Jack Peacock From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 12 14:14:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Unix filenames and drum memory (was: Files as files) Message-ID: <199806121914.AA11090@world.std.com> <> ObCC: I just noticed /dev/drum on a Dec here. Now I *know* there <> is not a drum on this thing, so this must be a holdover from some <> earlier implementation of some Unix. True? Were filesystems on <> drums managed the same as those on disks? I don't see any reason Drum is serial storage just like disks. What distinguished some drom is that ther stored words using multiple parallel heads making them very fast. On PDP-10 I used in 70/71 had a 128kw swapping drum used to hold the swap file. It's my understanding (and memory) it rotated at 1200 or 1800 rpm and stored 18 bit parallel words. I've also used a PDP-8 that had RS/RF08 disk that was structured like a drum with 12bit parallel access (32kw per platter). It was also quite fast. In all aspects durms and disks are the same thing. <> why they wouldn't be, offhand. But I thought drums died out before <> Unix appeared. Does anyone still have a functional magnetic drum <> memory? That would be one _awesome_ peripheral. :-) It didn't! Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > Found a stack of AT&T computers. Some are labelled "PC 6300" (The unix PC, > iirc?) but others are marked "6300 WGS", a designation I've not heard of > before. The 6300 WGS (Work Group Server) was a tower cased system that was not quite as odd as the regular 6300 and was primarily marketed as a multi-user UNIX platform.. Worked on both for a number of years... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Jun 12 15:25:29 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Heathkit replacement manuals Message-ID: <19980612132529.0003bff9.in@mail.pressstart.com> I just received the H-11a manuals that I ordered last week from the Heathkit's manual replacement service and I just wanted to let any one who is looking for old Heathkit manual know how I made out. I'm very happy with the manuals I received! First I ordered just the Assembly and the Operations manuals. One was $35 (I think) and the other was $45. After I hung up I realized that I had not asked about any schematics or illustration booket that usually comes with these manuals. (By the way, I asked about any EC-1 manuals and she said I was the fifth person to ask about those in the last week, no they don't any manuals for the EC-1) I received the Assembly manual and the Illustration Booket xeroxed DOUBLE sided on 11"x17" paper (also folded but not stapled). The Assembly manual did not have the traditional brown jacket, but I could take one off an old color TV assembly manual. I also received one schematic of the chassis power supply, front panel, and backplane on what seen to be about 20"x25" paper. (It does not look like it's been reduced in size). The Operation manual is about 3/4" thick and most likely came originally in a loose leaf binder. It is xeroxed again double sided and on 8 1/2" x 11" paper. (You can see were the 3 holes were punched) In their letter with the manuals they state that the manuals are nonreturnable but they will "attempt to correct any problem with the quality of the copy". I found they friendly, helpful, and fast. Their number is 616-925-5899 The only problem I've seen so far is with thw xray views of the circuit boards, the RED circuit traces on the foil side of the board do not xerox at all. ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Jun 12 15:08:22 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: GRiD/PenExec questions Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980612131139.62173ac2@ricochet.net> Someone had e-mailed me the pinouts for the AST PenExec (aka GRiD Convertable), but I lost them when my e-mail crashed. Whoever it was, could you be so kind as to resend them? Thanks! Also, the GRiD version was available with a 386 (2260) and 486 (2270). Does anyone know if there were also two AST versions? Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 12 14:47:29 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: IBM service rig? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980612144729.309741f8@intellistar.net> Here's what IBM says about the 9075: -------------- next part -------------- Description The IBM PCradio is a hand-held, rugged unit that provides an extension of host services to the mobile workforce via a variety of communication alternatives in a DOS-based unit. All models provide a 5-10 MHz 80C186 processor with power management system, Integrated Circuit (IC) memory card slot, CGA liquid crystal display, QWERTY keyboard featuring imbedded numeric keypad, 2400 bps internal modem, RJ-11, battery charger and serial and parallel (via the breakout box feature) ports for attachment of external devices. MODEL ABSTRACT 9075-001 (For IBM US, No Longer Available as of August 13, 1993) The 9075 IBM PCradio Model 001 is the base model containing all of the standard features. MODEL ABSTRACT 9075-002 (For IBM US, No Longer Available as of August 13, 1993) The 9075 IBM PCradio Model 002 offers all of the standard features as well as an ARDIS/RF integrated radio modem/internal antenna. The Model 002 also offers the option of an external antenna port (feature only). MODEL ABSTRACT 9075-003 (For IBM US, No Longer Available as of August 13, 1993) The 9075 IBM PCradio Model 003 offers all of the standard features as well as an integrated cellular up to 9600 bps modem/internal antenna, group 3/FAX up to 9600 bps send/receive on Cellular modem, an external antenna port (feature only), and an external RJ-11 jack for voice handset. The 9075 PCradio Model 003 has an optional voice handset, which enables the user to add voice capability. Highlights o Remote access to host data via wireless communications aids user productivity and personal computing capability. o Investment protection assured by enabling access to host-based applications, application transportability, hardware expansion. o Enhanced business solutions to facilitate decision making via real-time access to voice, FAX and data information. o Growth enablement assured through compatibility with existing systems and provisions for upgrades and expansion. o Systems management enhanced by reduction of complexity, improved operational productivity, reduced migration effort. Offering Identifier 9075 Type of offering Hardware Subtype Standard Status Discontinued from Service Announced 1991-12-31 Available 1992-01-31 Withdrawn 1993-08-13 Discontinued 1996-12-31 Available in the following countries United States (of America) Classification Words HW-Arch: C186 HW-Arch: Palmtop (Personal Organizers) HW-Type: PCs, Mobiles, PC Options Document identifier 000000108166 Revision Date 1998-04-03 -------------- next part -------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 12 14:54:56 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300's In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980612114809.63a71c2e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980612145456.2967bee8@intellistar.net> Roger, The 6300 isn't the Unix PC. It's a PC XT clone that will run IBM PC DOS (very compatible) and it has an 8086 CPU. BUT it requires a special monitor that gets it's power (150 Volts) from the CPU box through the video cable. The 7300 (a.k.a. 3B1) was the UNIX PC. I'm not sure what a 6300 WGS is but there's lots of 6386 WGSs in a trift store here. They're low end 386 MS-DOS machines. Joe At 01:46 PM 6/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >Found a stack of AT&T computers. Some are labelled "PC 6300" (The unix PC, >iirc?) but others are marked "6300 WGS", a designation I've not heard of >before. In any case, is anyone interested in them? They're available at a >good price. Condition unknown, possible monitors/keyboards, but dunno. >Lemme know if I should pick 'em up. > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > From pcoad at wco.com Fri Jun 12 15:24:45 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Files as files In-Reply-To: <9806121201.ZM21207@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jun 11, 23:25, Doug Yowza wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > > > And "rm -i *" prompts even with "-f". > > > > Not on Linux, at least. > > > > > AFAIK, all rm's have -r. > > > > I know -r is a fairly recent addition to "cp", but you may be right about > > "rm". Anybody have a V1 system they can test on? :-) > > I wish :-) > > "-r" certainly was an option to "rm" in 7th Edition, and IIRC (see other > thread :-)) "-i" overrides "-f" there too. > First edition rm(1) did not support any flags. Neither did cp(1). This is according to the man pages available at: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html It is pretty interesting. cp(1) appears to have supported copying files to different locations with the same command. If I am reading this correctly, it means that to copy foo to bar and baz to qux the command cp foo bar baz qux would work. Cool. cp * would be a lot of fun... --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 12 16:30:57 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? In-Reply-To: <199806121914.AA11173@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 12, 98 03:14:33 pm Message-ID: <9806122030.AA26839@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 776 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980612/3e77bdba/attachment.ksh From ecloud at goodnet.com Fri Jun 12 15:33:28 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? In-Reply-To: <199806121914.AA11173@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 12, 98 03:14:33 pm Message-ID: <199806122033.NAA04718@goodnet.com> > > I'm also interested in same and know someone that might like info. > There is a truck load of applications for a cheap/compact/lowpower > VGA display. At least small CGA and mono monitors have been cheap for a long time. Places that advertise in Electronics Now tend to have them for ~$30ish. They are usually open-frame. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * electronics * 808 State * Star Trek * Khoros * ham radio * knowledge base * From mor at crl.com Fri Jun 12 15:00:46 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300's References: <3.0.1.16.19980612145456.2967bee8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <358188EE.436F45FE@crl.com> Joe wrote: > > Roger, > > The 6300 isn't the Unix PC. It's a PC XT clone that will run IBM PC DOS > (very compatible) and it has an 8086 CPU. BUT it requires a special > monitor that gets it's power (150 Volts) from the CPU box through the video > cable. I was looking at a Xerox 6060 PC that has a monitor which appears to be the same. Does anyone know for sure if the Xerox monitor will run off a 6300 video port? If so, I might go back and see if it's still there... -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Fri Jun 12 16:19:20 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Unix filenames and drum memory In-Reply-To: <199806121824.OAA17950@dgs.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Jun 12, 98 02:24:46 pm Message-ID: <199806122119.RAA12983@shell.monmouth.com> > > On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > something you can get get around, even with any ordinary sort of > > ObCC: I just noticed /dev/drum on a Dec here. Now I *know* there > is not a drum on this thing, so this must be a holdover from some > earlier implementation of some Unix. True? Were filesystems on > drums managed the same as those on disks? I don't see any reason > why they wouldn't be, offhand. But I thought drums died out before > Unix appeared. Does anyone still have a functional magnetic drum > memory? That would be one _awesome_ peripheral. :-) > > Bill. > > On this ISP there's a /dev/drum BSD/OS shell.monmouth.com 3.1 BSDI BSD/OS 3.1 Kernel #2: Mon Jun 1 23:03:46 $ls -l /dev/drum crw-r----- 1 root kmem 4,0,0 Jan 29 1997 /dev/drum I believe it's in most BSD Unixes and tied to the swapping/paging system. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 12 16:23:29 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: GRiD/PenExec questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980612131139.62173ac2@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > Someone had e-mailed me the pinouts for the AST PenExec (aka GRiD > Convertable), but I lost them when my e-mail crashed. Whoever it was, > could you be so kind as to resend them? Thanks! I sent the original message to the list rather than to you with the expectation that the pin-outs would be archived and indexed for posterity. However, I just checked Kevan's archive: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/classiccmp/ and it stops at Feb 1998. Is anybody archiving this list? > Also, the GRiD version was available with a 386 (2260) and 486 (2270). > Does anyone know if there were also two AST versions? I've never seen an AST-labeled 486 PenExec, FWIW. -- Doug From red at bears.org Fri Jun 12 16:30:49 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: GRiD/PenExec questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > and it stops at Feb 1998. Is anybody archiving this list? I am, although the archive is not yet publically accessible. I've got everything since I joined up (forget when that was..) except for a small hole sometime round the end of 1997, but I definitely have everything past Feb 1998. ok r. From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 12 16:35:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980612115007.63a738fe@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > Does anyone know of a *cheap* source of a VGA-compatible display? What I'm > looking for, especially, is low power usage, followed by compactness and > portability. Thanks! A while back, I was able to find an IBM ps2/e (e = environment-friendly) with flat-panel cheap, but I don't know of a source for more of them. Which reminds me of a hardware question: I can get lots of nice LCD displays very cheap. How hard is it to convert one to a VGA display (or even to convert an old laptop with built-in VGA controller to something that will accept VGA input)? -- Doug From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jun 12 13:19:56 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.16.19980612115007.63a738fe@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199806122216.SAA05166@mail.cgocable.net> Doug spluttered onto screen: Snip! > > Which reminds me of a hardware question: I can get lots of nice LCD > displays very cheap. How hard is it to convert one to a VGA display (or > even to convert an old laptop with built-in VGA controller to something > that will accept VGA input)? > Well, I have two things, Looking for cheap compatiable color DSTN or TFT for my Stepnote 486DX4 notebook and I have a 9" VGA mono monitor branded IBM and in IBM style if you want it. *I paid bloody 150 dollars* back in 1990 as a bench monitor, still good after I spliced inside because that original black VGA cable went bad with that's easier to replace and much inexpensive one. Oh, it has no burn in spots. Let me know what you need for info. > -- Doug email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Jun 12 17:15:25 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: FA: Various systems Message-ID: <013f01bd9656$dfadb8e0$4652fea9@office1> Auction services have their place, but I think that we on the list should be given the "right of first refusal". If one of the list members has something to sell, give the others a first crack, with some time limit (like a week), before listing it on eBay or Haggle. Just my $0.02. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking Preserver of classic computers ============================================ From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 12 18:21:06 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Unix filenames and drum memory (was: Files as files) Message-ID: <199806122321.AA13740@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980612185137.006d2f9c@pop3.concentric.net> If you are looking for something like the 12" 8512's by IBM I see those trashed 20 to 50 at a time here in the twincities. At 03:14 PM 6/12/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >I'm also interested in same and know someone that might like info. >There is a truck load of applications for a cheap/compact/lowpower >VGA display. > >Allison > > > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Jun 12 18:58:45 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: IIRC Message-ID: <19980612235845.25726.qmail@hotmail.com> What IS up with them? I don't get "their" reference to themselves in plural. Was it really a group? >On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Francois wrote: > >> Well, "If I Recall Corectly" that's what it means. > >BTW, whatever happened to lisard/communa? The consistency with which >"they" used pronouns was impressive: IIRC -> iwrc. > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jun 12 18:54:47 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? In-Reply-To: <199806122033.NAA04718@goodnet.com> References: <199806121914.AA11173@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980612185447.006c9fe0@pop3.concentric.net> This John again forgot to tell the price on the 8512's most of the time it's $5 each. At 01:33 PM 6/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >> > > > >> I'm also interested in same and know someone that might like info. >> There is a truck load of applications for a cheap/compact/lowpower >> VGA display. > >At least small CGA and mono monitors have been cheap for a long time. >Places that advertise in Electronics Now tend to have them for ~$30ish. >They are usually open-frame. > >-- > _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com > (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud > __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ >* electronics * 808 State * Star Trek * Khoros * ham radio * knowledge base * > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 12 18:10:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <19980612003549.23395.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 11, 98 05:35:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3933 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980613/8e973177/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Jun 12 19:13:50 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <19980613001350.20577.qmail@hotmail.com> I have started bringing home the expanded Apple II+. It has an external "Executive Peripheral Systems, Inc." keyboard, with program macro modules for Wordstar and Visicalc (great keyboard,if only it clicked), and the regular DuoDisk. I also brought home the DR CP/M card manual. The Apple II and floppies will be brought home next week. I was firstly thinking of putting this into a PC case, since the keyboard is external anyway. But I was reading the CP/M manual (pretty shallow), and it mentions a 16-user capability and password protection. How does this work and how secure is it? Also, would you say that the Z-80 was better than the 8088? It was certainly used much more... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 12 19:28:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? Message-ID: <199806130028.AA29308@world.std.com> <35815DE7.C5A5576@navix.net> Message-ID: <3581CEC2.D3F26F72@cnct.com> Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn wrote: > I was wondering if anyone might have any information on an old > machine produced by Tandy/Radio Shack. It came out _prior_ to the > Color Computer, but it looked like a CoCo. However, it was a > modified with a phone jack in the back for a TV/monitor and ran off > of a 6809E (???). It basically was a videotext terminal of some > sort. It was announced the same day as the Color Computer and was 90% the same machine. The original Videotex Terminal. Basically, it was a Color Computer with the Vidtex ROM instead of BASIC and a built-in DCM-1. IMHO, not one of the company's smartest moves, but it was announced August 3, 1980 along with the Color Computer, the Pocket Computer One and the Model III, and I didn't join the company (at a non-policy-making level) until November 2nd that year. > If anyone might have some information on this little unit, your help > in learning more about it, and it's purposes, and maybe some history > on it, would be much appreciated. It was more or less a dedicated CompuSlave terminal -- while its terminal emulation used more-or-less VT-52 commands, its graphic command set was CompuSlave specific. (CompuServe had a demo page that looked fine on a Vidtex terminal or a Color Computer with the ROMPAK, but it was terminally ugly if you accessed it with the Videotex software for the Mod 1/3 or the Mod 2, as the graphics were not oriented for monochrome displays -- there was a package for the Apple II [sold by Radio Shack] but I never saw it in action]). > Oh, yeh... an off-topic question? Is this text formatted correctly. > I had some problems with my mail software and had it completely > messed up trying to fix the original problem. Anyway, let me know if > the text is going off the right of your screen or whatever, and if > my signature box at the bottom of the page is formatted ok, ok? If > it is, great! If something's wrong, feel free to send a private > e-mail back to me to let me know ok? Formatting seems OK from here. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From peacock at simconv.com Fri Jun 12 20:11:00 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E926@NT486> > But I was reading the CP/M manual (pretty shallow), and it mentions a 16-user capability and password protection. How does this work and how secure is it? Also, would you say that the Z-80 was better than the 8088? It was certainly used much more... > The "16 user" isn't really a multi-user capability. Unlike MS-DOS, Unix, VMS, etc., CP/M did not have subdirectories. The main directory was it, everything fit there. This was not so convenient, so "user areas" came into being with CP/M v2. The 16 users are actually numbered subdirectories. The "C> USER 5" command would switch you to subdirectory 5, equivalent to a "C> CD \DIR5" in DOS. The idea was if multiple people used the machine, each would have their own area. On V3 the user 0 area was a common directory, I think there were some commands to control this (very rusty on CP/M V3). I don't think CP/M V3 was ever implemented on the Apple card, since V3 was designed to use banked memory over 64K. As for 8088 vs. Z80, I would rate the 8088 as one step above the Z80. It was slower, but had a larger instruction set and a crude MMU built in, out to the 1MB limit so familiar today. The Z80 was a bit faster at the same clock rate, and the 8088 never got to a very high speed, IIRC it got to about 8 or 10Mhz in the Intel version, NEC sold variants out to 12Mhz. The Z80H was an 8Mhz part, it kept up with the 4.77Mhz original IBM quite well, except for the memory limitation. BTW, on S-100 systems the 8086 was far more common than the 8088, since the S-100 could support a real 16-bit bus. Zilog and Hitachi eventually extended the Z80 out to 512K and then 1MB with an MMU too, but it was never as flexible as the segment registers in the 8088. As far as design difficulty, using an 8088 or Z80 was about equal. The 8088 had a minimal mode for small designs, or support chipset for expanded systems. The Z80 took some random logic for the clock signal and needed some type of MMU if you needed more than 64K. Jack Peacock From webmaster at pntprinting.com Fri Jun 12 20:01:26 1998 From: webmaster at pntprinting.com (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: I have a AC Adapter for Apple Portable Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980612205944.006c4b10@pntprinting.com> Someone was looking for a Mac Portable PS? Too late for me. >X-Persona: >Return-Path: >Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:33:03 +0000 >From: Rolando de Le?n >Reply-To: rdeleon@newmax.dataflux.com.mx >Organization: MAC S.A. >To: webmaster@pntprinting.com >Subject: I have a AC Adapter for Apple Portable > >I have an AC Adapter *NEW* Apple Brand. have also a base for recharging >the battery outside of the computer. > >I Want $15 US Dlls. for it > >Please let me know. > > >Rolando de Leon > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 12 20:14:31 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <199806130114.AA24762@world.std.com> <>I'm also interested in same and know someone that might like info. <>There is a truck load of applications for a cheap/compact/lowpower <>VGA display. I should elaborate. I'm looking for a mono (or color) display that is very low power and size is not that important other than I need to be able to see 80charx24line text on it. Graphics are not required. While some CRTs can be under 10watts power my desire is an order of magnitude lower if possible. An LCD would be ideal but alas none are available (low cost) that have more than the basic LCD drivers. The DELL laptop LCD I have is typical of the MONO 640x480 displays and the "video" input is not like a crt in timing or signals. For example the display is really two 640x240 running in parallel with seperate video for each. Hand built logic to do that costs enough in power and design time to make it unappealing or no better than a good mono crt unless I resort to Gals/FPGAs (design effort and cost prohibitive for a one up). Allison From william at ans.net Fri Jun 12 20:20:16 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Cyber 2000? Message-ID: OK, so it seems to be the last CDC machine, after the Cyber 180s. Does anyone have any information on these things? Any still in use? William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Jun 12 20:25:00 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? In-Reply-To: <199806130114.AA24833@world.std.com> Message-ID: > An LCD would be ideal but alas none are available > (low cost) that have more than the basic LCD drivers. The DELL laptop > LCD I have is typical of the MONO 640x480 displays and the "video" input > is not like a crt in timing or signals. For example the display is > really two 640x240 running in parallel with seperate video for each. > Hand built logic to do that costs enough in power and design time to > make it unappealing or no better than a good mono crt unless I resort > to Gals/FPGAs (design effort and cost prohibitive for a one up). There are (were?) a few vendors that made very nice single chip solutions for converting base VGA into something an LCD could use. Hitachi? William Donzelli william@ans.net From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Jun 12 20:37:35 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <19980613013735.3631.qmail@hotmail.com> Because if I use a baby AT case, it will take less space than the apple case. I will also be able to stick the floppy drive inside. >Why? > ><(pretty shallow), and it mentions a 16-user capability and password > >Well the 16 user thing is not multiuser it's a way of diving up the >directory into 16 distinct areas as CP/M didn't have subdirectories. > >Password protection? There wasn't any as part of CP/M. The CP/M 3+ manual says the syntax is drive:12345678.123;password. Maybe it's a weird DR thing. They tended to add weird stuff... > >Better... that's a relative term. It was cheaper to use, more software >available as it was fully upward compatable with the 8080 (and 8085) >that preceeded it and it was there before the 8088. Also as the 8088 >got faster the z80 also got faster and added a MMU. I can still build >a system using z80 for less than the 8088 and the z80 one will be easier >to program. If the program gets larger than fits in the 64k space then >the competition becomes a bit more fair. Still segmented space is pretty >ugly and a paged MMU on z80 is very easy to do. Or better yet a z180 >(64180) which is a z180 with MMU, 2 serial ports and a DMA all on one >chip (and still cheaper and faster than a bare 8088 in 1985). The z180 >also offered something the 8088 line never had which was a compatable >highly integrated version as the 8088 needed several parts around it to >use effectively and the '188 was an odd duck compared to the 8088. So >for the 8088 comparison the z80 was hard to dislodge. It really took the >386(32bits) to make a real impact. > >Z80 space was characterized as developing, it was inexpensive to develop >around, there were lots of similar and competing systems (both >a blessing and curse), tons of cheap to free software, offered sufficient >compute power and friendy to program in assembler. The only other chip >to be as persistant, easy to use and popular was the 6502. > >I might add that both were quite popular in the instrumentation and >control sytems field. > >Tidbit... the z80/z180 is still in production and the cmos z80s182 runs >at a screaming 20mhz internal clock (roughly 2-4mips processing speed) >and can come to a complete stop, using only microwatts of power in that >mode. I have a z180 at 9.8mhz and it's quite fast for text apps and is >usually waiting on the SCSI hard disk system (xybec/st251). > > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 12 20:50:35 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300's References: <3.0.16.19980612114809.63a71c2e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3581DAEB.9BE9C3DC@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > Found a stack of AT&T computers. Some are labelled "PC 6300" (The unix PC, > iirc?) but others are marked "6300 WGS", a designation I've not heard of > before. In any case, is anyone interested in them? They're available at a > good price. Condition unknown, possible monitors/keyboards, but dunno. > Lemme know if I should pick 'em up. The 6300 was not the Unix PC, it was an Olivetti-built more-or-less PC-compatible system. The WGS series happened later, they spanned systems from 8088 to at least 80386-25 before AT&T switched from Olivetti to Intel boxes (yes, Intel built complete PCs). The 6300+ (80286) _did_ run Unix and featured the first DOS-under-Unix product, SimulTask 1.0. I've got an AT&T 6386E tower next to me that will be used (box and power supply anyway) as a home for my workstation from Hell as soon as motherboard design changes stabilise for two months in a row. The old 386/25 motherboard will be placed on the wall as either a decoration or as a warning depending on the size of the nails I use. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 12 21:03:24 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: GRiD/PenExec questions References: Message-ID: <3581DDEC.1B1089A9@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > Someone had e-mailed me the pinouts for the AST PenExec (aka GRiD > > Convertable), but I lost them when my e-mail crashed. Whoever it was, > > could you be so kind as to resend them? Thanks! > > I sent the original message to the list rather than to you with the > expectation that the pin-outs would be archived and indexed for posterity. > However, I just checked Kevan's archive: > http://www.heydon.org/kevan/classiccmp/ > and it stops at Feb 1998. Is anybody archiving this list? Well, I wouldn't say I'm _archiving_ them, but I don't recall deleting anything since at least September. But as my ISP only gives me a 10Mb limit, I won't be attaching them to my web page when I get around to sticking something there beyond my resume. I can probably do keyword searches and locate what you need. Hang on a second, > Subject: > Re: HMR Haul > Date: > Sat, 28 Mar 1998 13:57:09 -0600 (CST) > From: > Doug Yowza > Reply-To: > classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: > "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > > > > On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > For them in the Bay area, I want to reiterate that HMR USA is worth a > > visit. And good news -- They're going to be open on Saturdays. They're > > going to be open M-Th for businesses only, and Friday and Saturday for > > individuals. They've got a new web site as well: > > (with no hyphen.) > > They don't seem to go out of their way to tell you their location. Where > are they? > > > Toshiba T5200/100 (2) > > Toshiba T5200 > > Wow, that's 75 lbs of Toshibas! Let me know if you figure out how to get > to the CMOS battery. There's a weird little compartment with a pull-tab > that looks like a good candidate, but it doesn't want to open (easily) for > me. > > > Those marked with a * are ones I need info on the power supply > > requirements, especially the PenExec, which uses the same kind of connector > > PenExec power pin-out (excuse the bad art): > > 6 7 8 > 3 4 5 > 1 2 > > 1 - ground > 2 - external power > 3 - ground > 4 - battery charge enable (active low) > 5 - external power > 6 - battery positive current sense voltage > 7 - battery negative current sense voltage > 8 - battery rapid charge status (active low) > > The power supply is labeled 8 - 16V @ 2A. > > -- Doug Hope this helps. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jun 12 21:02:52 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: IIRC Message-ID: <002001bd966f$cfce9340$226fbcc1@hotze> From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 12 22:00:21 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: CP/M References: <19980613001350.20577.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3581EB45.FD35CCE0@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > I have started bringing home the expanded Apple II+. It has an > external "Executive Peripheral Systems, Inc." keyboard, with program > macro modules for Wordstar and Visicalc (great keyboard,if only it > clicked), and the regular DuoDisk. I also brought home the DR CP/M Worst excuse to choose a keyboard I can think of. I _hate_ noisy keyboards -- if I'd been teaching in a classroom full of IBM PCs instead of TRS-80s, I'd have gone (further) nuts. (Just teaching beginning computer operations requires somebody whose sanity is already suspect -- and I doubt it's gotten better in the last decade but at least _I don't have to do it any more!_). Yes sir, all of the pigs are fed and ready to fly. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jun 12 17:57:37 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: References: <357F226F.1E436EF4@crl.com> Message-ID: <199806130256.WAA00173@smtp.interlog.com> > > Greg wrote: > > Does anyone think this sort of thing will continue/escalate long-term? > > > > I don't think it's a fad. Vintage computers are collectible and, like any > collectible, will usually only increase in value (except for my 1400 mint > copies of Howard The Duck comic, but that's another story). Computers have > all the criteria to make them desirable collectibles - coolness, nostalgia > value, and scarcity (since most old computers were considered useless and > therefore scrapped). There is also the additional factor that those for > whom they provide a hit of nostalgia are now successful programmers and > others in the high-tech biz who often have more disposable income than > search time and are therefore willing to pay the price to get what they > want when they want it. I predict that the market will escalate rapidly > over the next five years. If you have the space, I would strongly suggest > not only holding on to your collection, even the stuff you consider common, > but grabbing anything you can for the next couple of years. > > Of course, thats just MHO. On the other hand, I bought vintage photographs > in the sixties when they were going for next-to-nothing and cleaned up in > the eighties. > > Anybody want to buy some Howard The Duck comics? > > R. > OFF-TOPIC ALERT ::::: Loved Howard the Duck comics Hated what they did with the movie. I'll likely get back to you on this. > BTW - Another thought on the eBay prices - those of us who live in CA, NY, > MA and other areas where computers were common in the early days tend to > become somewhat jaded about all the stuff we find. In other areas, vintage > computers are almost non-existant. It's not so much a matter of ignorance, > but of availability that drives the prices up. > > -- It is especially galling to us in low-availability areas when you guys post about acquiring them by the pallet. : ^ {{ ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 12 22:18:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: IIRC References: <002001bd966f$cfce9340$226fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3581EF9A.39E10F80@cnct.com> Hotze wrote: > > >From what I could figure out, it was two origionally seperate people acting > as one. Now, this system seems very interesting to me, but what about > say... paying taxes? Or other legal matters? They could have registered > them as a single entity (child), and then certifited their individual > deaths... but one would think that two would be descriminated against just > by that. What about communications? Do they think alike, talk, use hand > signals, or body language? Are they two males/females, or one male and one > female? There was a time when some of us tried variations on the traditional patterns we'd been fed in public and Sunday school. Many didn't work for long, my first marriage (a polyandrous triad) lasted only six years, though my second _very extended_ marriage lasted more than ten years. I've never considered a relationship that involved subordinating personal personality, I'm too much of an individualist, but I have seen such seem to work, usually with a religious component -- alien to me, as I've been an atheist since I was younger than you are. Despite the alleged separation of church and state, the government recognizes relationships that conform to relatively recent xtian patterns. > Tim D. Hotze > -----Original Message----- > From: Max Eskin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 8:59 AM > Subject: Re: IIRC > >What IS up with them? I don't get "their" reference to themselves > >in plural. Was it really a group? > >>On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Francois wrote: > >> > >>> Well, "If I Recall Corectly" that's what it means. > >> > >>BTW, whatever happened to lisard/communa? The consistency with which > >>"they" used pronouns was impressive: IIRC -> iwrc. > >> > >>-- Doug -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From erd at infinet.com Fri Jun 12 22:16:27 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 12, 98 09:25:00 pm Message-ID: <199806130316.XAA22729@user2.infinet.com> > > > An LCD would be ideal but alas none are available > > (low cost) that have more than the basic LCD drivers. The DELL laptop > > LCD I have is typical of the MONO 640x480 displays and the "video" input > > is not like a crt in timing or signals. For example the display is > > really two 640x240 running in parallel with seperate video for each. I have one of those. I thought about a simple Amiga adapter, since I can program the Amiga's Copper to squeeze out whateve video lines I choose, but that is an imperfect solution. > > Hand built logic to do that costs enough in power and design time to > > make it unappealing or no better than a good mono crt unless I resort > > to Gals/FPGAs (design effort and cost prohibitive for a one up). That's why my LCD panel sits in the box. :-( > There are (were?) a few vendors that made very nice single chip solutions > for converting base VGA into something an LCD could use. > > Hitachi? Ooh! Does anyone have a relevant Hitachi data book? -ethan From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 12 22:30:22 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:31 2005 Subject: Cross listing Ebay items References: <357F226F.1E436EF4@crl.com> <199806130256.WAA00173@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3581F24E.B3844820@cnct.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > > > Greg wrote: > > > > Does anyone think this sort of thing will continue/escalate long-term? > > > > > > > I don't think it's a fad. Vintage computers are collectible and, like any > > collectible, will usually only increase in value (except for my 1400 mint > > copies of Howard The Duck comic, but that's another story). Computers have > > all the criteria to make them desirable collectibles - coolness, nostalgia > > value, and scarcity (since most old computers were considered useless and > > therefore scrapped). There is also the additional factor that those for > > whom they provide a hit of nostalgia are now successful programmers and > > others in the high-tech biz who often have more disposable income than > > search time and are therefore willing to pay the price to get what they > > want when they want it. I predict that the market will escalate rapidly > > over the next five years. If you have the space, I would strongly suggest > > not only holding on to your collection, even the stuff you consider common, > > but grabbing anything you can for the next couple of years. > > > > Of course, thats just MHO. On the other hand, I bought vintage photographs > > in the sixties when they were going for next-to-nothing and cleaned up in > > the eighties. > > > > Anybody want to buy some Howard The Duck comics? > > > > R. > > > OFF-TOPIC ALERT ::::: > Loved Howard the Duck comics Hated what they did with the movie. > I'll likely get back to you on this. Steve Gerber's work was generally excellent, the comic was better than most PC compatibles in entertainment value. The movie wasn't as bad as the reviews said, it beat the hell out out of the Sanyo MBC-550. (Then again, I bought the comics one at a time, with the intention of reading them, not investing -- yes, I knew _some_comics gain value with time, I first studied a Bob Overstreet guide in 1967, but since when does a teenager think of _investing_ in the entertainment industry? -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From kyrrin at jps.net Fri Jun 12 23:06:50 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (kyrrin@jps.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: FW: Fellow wants a VAX, willing to pay... Message-ID: <3581fa74.1289588930@smtp.wa.jps.net> Except for MV3100's (he explicitly says no to them), this fellow's willing to pay real money for a cheap VAXen. If you can help, reply to him directly. Thanks. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- From: Mark Tarka Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: WTB small VAX system -- WA State Message-ID: <009C797D.53C8C87D.1@earth.oscs.montana.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:25:55 MDT Organization: Info-Vax<==>Comp.Os.Vms Gateway X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List Lines: 9 Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!nntp.ntr.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!nntp2.cerf.net!nntp3.cerf.net!mvb.saic.com!info-vax I will be in Western Washington State next week (6/16 to 6/22) on business (American Chemical Society regional meeting in the Tri-Cities). Is there anyone in the Spokane-Walla Walla-Yakima triangle with a small VAX to donate or sell ($200 or less)? No MV3100's, please. Mark -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 12 23:08:43 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: FW: DEC WT/78? In-Reply-To: <3581F24E.B3844820@cnct.com> Message-ID: Can somebody help this budding DEC-head: << Hugh Henderson saginaw, MI USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 18:07:56 I rescued a Digital WT/78 word terminal with a Digital RX02 computer attached. It does try to boot, but I don't have the system disk. I'd sure love to see the beast run. If somebody knows anything about this computer, I hope you'll contact me. What does it run? What kind of processors does it use? It has network and modem connections. How do you use those, and what were they originally for? As you see, I'm a pretty curious guy>:) >> From nerdware at laidbak.com Fri Jun 12 23:41:20 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (nerdware@laidbak.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: IBM service rig? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980611225844.4de74802@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199806130438.XAA14281@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:00:35 -0700 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: Uncle Roger To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: IBM service rig? > At 11:13 PM 6/11/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I just picked up an IBM type 9075 laptop. The label on the inside (where the > >keyboard is) says it's an Aptek Personal Service Communicator II. It's got a > > The PC Radio. Take a look at > ; is yours the same? If so, > do you have a power supply? I think I've got the info I have on the web > page... > > It was designed for service people to communicate with the home office. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ Yep. That's it. Except that the "PCRadio" badge is missing from the cover. I do have the ps, but it seems that since the battery's dead, the ps isn't enough to power it up by itself. Wow -- a 80186. Feel the power! That's actually kinda cool, since this is now my first 186 machine. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jun 13 00:08:59 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: WTB: GRiDPad 1912 parts Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980613010853.006be7e0@netpath.net> Looking for the keyboard adapter, internal 2400 MNP modem w/jacks, the optional stand, just about anything that was available for it. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 13 00:57:17 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: IIRC References: <001601bd95f5$04c9c4a0$4c020bce@fauradon> Message-ID: <358214BD.5EFA38D9@rain.org> Thanks to all that responded. Most likely I won't forget IIRC now :). Thanks again! From peacock at simconv.com Sat Jun 13 01:32:52 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? Message-ID: <002301bd9695$186c82e0$64ac31cf@foggy.simconv.com> >There are (were?) a few vendors that made very nice single chip solutions >for converting base VGA into something an LCD could use. > >Hitachi? > Cirrus Logic made LCD controllers that would drive an LCD and also an external monitor. I have an older Compal TS-38 laptop with the chip, driving a dual scan color LCD, but with a switch to go to an external monitor. From peacock at simconv.com Sat Jun 13 01:46:30 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Alloy Engineering tape drive Message-ID: <006801bd9696$ffab0220$64ac31cf@foggy.simconv.com> I have acquired the manuals, S100 controller, and cartridge tape drive, but not the software, for an Alloy Engineering cartridge tape drive. I have two manuals, the Interface Guide For the IDXS-100, and TIP (Tape Interchange Package) Operator's Guide, both dated 1981. The tape drive is an early 3M cartridge tape, capacity of about 14MB formatted. I also have a big box of backup tape cartridges. This system came from a multi-user Concurrent CP/M 80286 system in the early 80's. The system disk was pulled from the S-100 box when it was retired, and the original floppies are long gone. I figure if I can find either a Z80 or 8086 version of the TIP program I can get the system directory off the backup tapes. Does anyone know more about these tape drives? A binary of the TIP program? Jack Peacock From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sat Jun 13 06:33:35 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: FW: DEC WT/78? In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 12, 98 11:08:43 pm Message-ID: <199806131133.HAA27987@shell.monmouth.com> > > Can somebody help this budding DEC-head: > > << > Hugh Henderson > saginaw, MI USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 18:07:56 > > I rescued a Digital WT/78 word terminal with a Digital RX02 computer > attached. > It does try to boot, but I don't have the system disk. I'd sure love > to see the beast run. > If somebody knows anything about this computer, I hope you'll contact > me. > What does it run? What kind of processors does it use? It has network > and modem connections. > How do you use those, and what were they originally for? > > As you see, I'm a pretty curious guy>:) > >> Neat find. A WT/78 also known as a VT78 (I think) was a PDP8 on a chip inside a VT52 terminal. This machine runs (usually) DEC's WPS-8 word processing software which is quite nice (and also my favorite word processor for document editing). I think it can also run the other PDP8 based OS's... like OS/278 (which is the later OS/8 stuff updated to run on the Decmate II and III). Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tomowad at earthlink.net Sat Jun 13 08:12:01 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: FA: Various systems Message-ID: <199806131312.GAA00646@norway.it.earthlink.net> > Auction services have their place, but I think that we on the list >should be given the "right of first refusal". If one of the list members has >something to sell, give the others a first crack, with some time limit (like >a week), before listing it on eBay or Haggle. Perhaps list subscribers who wish to list their items on an auction service could offer a discount to other subscribers (e.g. "Mention you saw this add on the Classic Computers mailing list and get 10% off."). This way the seller gets the higher prices of the auction services while at the same time offering an advantage to list subscribers. Tom Owad From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 13 09:22:56 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <199806131422.AA16263@world.std.com> Password protection? There wasn't any as part of CP/M. There are (were?) a few vendors that made very nice single chip solutio <> for converting base VGA into something an LCD could use. <> <> Hitachi? < I got a apollo 4500. It has a 68030 inside, and a 700-someodd meg MFM (?) harddisk. I have no idea what it runs. This one has a SummaSketch pad with it. It was used for CAD stuff. What's it run? The problem with it is, the video card appears to have died. WHen I power the machine on (It has a VERY LARGE [21"] RGB monitor. Any chance of me connecting it to a PC? It has 3 plugs, R G B, and expects sync on green) and the monitor, I get garbage. The garbage is the same almost every time. There is 3 patterns. The first one is just garbage, the second one is the same garbage only dimmer, and the third is a light blue blank screen. All of them are light blue colored. The summasketch puck is also wrecked, someone's jerked the MMJ plug off the end. But I can get another one of those. There is a switch in the back (Next to the reset (?) button) than, when pressed, activates a 4-LED indication inside the case. When I start the machine, it flickers around, and stops at 1 on, 2 3 and 4 blinking. Is this a failure code? What's this switch for? Am I correct in my assumption? (Dead video) I've already pushed all the socketed chips in as far as they'll go. That didn't help. I also removed the video card (It has no socketed chips) and reseated it. This also has a network adapter, labled DOMAIN RING. What wire does that expect? I'm guessing it's not Ethernet... Oh, the label on the front says APOLLO DOMAIN 4500. FOrgot that :) ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 13 10:31:26 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <19980613153126.16421.qmail@hotmail.com> So, how DID it work? > >Password protection? There wasn't any as part of CP/M. > >You didn't say CPM3! If you say CPM it is assumed the more common v2.x >version. V2.x did not have passwords, V3.0 did. Obviously if this apple >cpm card has V3 disks it it was a very late one or someone went to some >trouble to port v3 to it. FYI: v3 was not widely popular. > >Allison > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 13 10:43:16 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... Message-ID: <199806131543.AA27893@world.std.com> Max, Please clip off the unwanted parts of the message. <> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 13, 98 11:43:16 am Message-ID: <199806131707.NAA29685@shell.monmouth.com> > > > More likely SCSI (single 50pin cable) or EDSI (two cables like MFM). > MFM drives topped out at 160mb or so, EDSI went to at least 400mb maybe > higher. Definitely ESDI or SCSI. Although they could have had SMD or ESMD as well. > > > Some kind of unix. Possibly, though the Apollo's ran Domain/OS which was Multics inspired but later it went to BSD compatibility and looked like both Unix and Multics. > > Allison > > Actually, there are a lot of Apollo collectors out there and the video card may be getable. The Apollos used 3C505's for ethernet and some other Token ring interface. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jun 13 12:20:38 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Old Alpha's (OT) Message-ID: <006201bd96ef$aaa608c0$2c6fbcc1@hotze> Hi. Just wanted to know if anyone out here knows where I can get an old alpha... (real old). Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From museum at techniche.com Sat Jun 13 14:35:41 1998 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... Message-ID: <199806131935.PAA20867@dewdrop2.mindspring.com> This is somewhat tangential, but I suspect whoever is reading about HP Apollo's may be able to contribute. I came across a rack mount system in the local surplus store. The faceplate reads "HP 2100c Programmable Microcomputer System". Any ideas what this is? Worth picking up? Jon >> >> > > >> More likely SCSI (single 50pin cable) or EDSI (two cables like MFM). >> MFM drives topped out at 160mb or so, EDSI went to at least 400mb maybe >> higher. > >Definitely ESDI or SCSI. Although they could have had SMD or ESMD >as well. > >> >> > > >> Some kind of unix. > >Possibly, though the Apollo's ran Domain/OS which was Multics inspired >but later it went to BSD compatibility and looked like both Unix and >Multics. > >> >> Allison >> >> > >Actually, there are a lot of Apollo collectors out there and the video >card may be getable. The Apollos used 3C505's for ethernet and some other >Token ring interface. > >Bill > >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | >| 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | >| pechter@shell.monmouth.com | >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > From gene at ehrich.com Sat Jun 13 14:35:45 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Apple IIc - Mint Condition for sale In-Reply-To: <199806131133.HAA27987@shell.monmouth.com> References: Message-ID: <4.0.1.19980613153327.00e04590@popmail.voicenet.com> http://www.voicenet.com/~generic On-Line Computer Garage Sale PC MAC Atari Apple Amiga Commodore CoCo Intellivision ---------- New Items Added to my web site on June 13, 1998 If they are not there yet check back a few hours later. Apple Hardware - MINT Condition - offers considered The following items are all in original boxes with original packing materials and all manuals, disks, cables etc. They look brand new as if they had never been used. All work great and have been thoroughly tested. This is mint condition. Apple IIc w/all software, manuals, cables, ps, box etc Apple Color Composite Monitor w/manuals, box, cables etc Apple II Monitor stand for above monitor Apple II 5-1/4 external disk drive with manuals, etc Archer Competition Joystick for Apple IIe/c & PC ------------------------------------------------------------- Apple Software Award Maker Plus for Apple II series box/doc Chuck Yeager Advanced Flight Trainer box/doc Creation - An animated writing program for Apple II series Game of the World for Apple II series box/doc Print Shop for Apple II series box/doc ------------------------------------------------------------- Apple Manuals Apple II Appleworks Reference Manual Appleworks Users Handbook PinPoint Appleworks Desktop Accesories Users Guide & Tutorial ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com Gene Ehrich P.O. Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 ------------------------------------------------------ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 13 15:23:05 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <19980613202305.22950.qmail@hotmail.com> Did MP/M run on Z-80s? BTW, is there a reasonable chance the CP/M on one micro w/5.25" disks be compatible with another with 5.25" disks, i.e. my apple with a C-128? Also, if a computer can run CP/M 3+ can it run eariler versions? (Note i'm not talking about apps here). >OK to fair. ;) It was file level password protection and required the >whole colume to be enabled for it. Security level was low though. If the >user could assemble and run a program they could write code to access the >disk directory and toggle the right bits and they had control. It was >aimed at captive applications where the user had limited resources and >could not get directly at the file system. Many of the things in CPM3 >are there to provice more direct compatability with MP/M. > >As to weird, no most of the additions they did were similar to the ZCPR >groups and other were doing in parallel and had sound basis. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 13 16:09:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Old Alpha's (OT) Message-ID: <199806132109.AA08045@world.std.com> from "Jon Healey" at Jun 13, 98 03:35:41 pm Message-ID: <199806132137.RAA29409@shell.monmouth.com> > > This is somewhat tangential, but I suspect whoever is > reading about HP Apollo's may be able to contribute. > > I came across a rack mount system in the local surplus > store. The faceplate reads "HP 2100c Programmable > Microcomputer System". > > Any ideas what this is? Worth picking up? > > Jon No clue... I learned programming on an HP2000 basic system (mini) but I've got no clue if this is micro version... Bill From peacock at simconv.com Sat Jun 13 18:10:53 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <000a01bd9720$84e527c0$64ac31cf@foggy.simconv.com> +AD4-Did MP/M run on Z-80s? BTW, is there a reasonable chance the CP/M on +AD4-one micro w/5.25+ACI- disks be compatible with another with 5.25+ACI- disks, +AD4-i.e. my apple with a C-128? Also, if a computer can run CP/M 3 can it +AD4-run eariler versions? (Note i'm not talking about apps here). Yes, MP/M ran on the Z80 first, then on the 8086. A multi-user Z80 was no speed demon but it was cheap compared to a PDP-11. BTW, the very first initial release of MP/M was actually coded for 8080, the task dispatcher did not save the extra Z80 registers. I discovered it the hard way, reported it to DRI, they fixed it right away. Apparently whatever machine they used to test MP/M was 8080 or 8085 based. Compatibility on floppies was about nil, very very few disks could be moved from one machine to another. If anything, 5.25+ACI- compatibility was worse than 8+ACI- floppies. Any Z80 machine that could run V3 had all the hardware needed to run V2. CP/M V1 was designed only for 8+ACI- SSSD floppies, the BIOS didn't have the drive tables in it to support anything else. Jack Peacock From rax at warbaby.com Sat Jun 13 19:27:39 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? In-Reply-To: <199806122033.NAA04718@goodnet.com> References: <199806121914.AA11173@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 12, 98 03:14:33 pm Message-ID: >> > > > >> I'm also interested in same and know someone that might like info. >> There is a truck load of applications for a cheap/compact/lowpower >> VGA display. > >At least small CGA and mono monitors have been cheap for a long time. >Places that advertise in Electronics Now tend to have them for ~$30ish. >They are usually open-frame. > Also try Nuts & Volts magazine. Lots of ads from purveyors of all sorts of goodies for the mad inventor that lurks inside each of us. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From fauradon at pclink.com Sat Jun 13 19:19:59 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Unusual find Message-ID: <000701bd972a$2b64f860$cf010bce@fauradon> Hi, I just found a book Titled Odyssey Pepsi to Apple by John Sculley. It is the advance copy from uncorrected manuscript. How often do anyone of you run into that kind of print? Here is what it says on the cover: This is an advance copy from uncorrected manuscript. The regular edition will be hardcover. Reviewers are reminded that changes may be made in this manuscript copy before books are printed. If any material from the book is to be quoted in a review, the quotation should be checked against the final bound book. A final chapter, The Second Renaissance, is not included in this reading copy. It will appear in the printed book. Harper & Row, Publishers, New York. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 13 17:32:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: <13363477349.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 13, 98 07:53:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1676 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980613/e2f08a14/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jun 13 19:33:09 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Unusual find In-Reply-To: <000701bd972a$2b64f860$cf010bce@fauradon> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980613193309.08dfeb7c@intellistar.net> At 07:19 PM 6/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, >I just found a book Titled Odyssey Pepsi to Apple by John Sculley. It is the >advance copy from uncorrected manuscript. >How often do anyone of you run into that kind of print? I rarely see this kind of thing, but I do have a book titled "Marching Thru Georgia" that was published in the 1800s that has *three* hard covers on it and all three are a different style, color and material! Inside the book it mentions that the books are available with three different covers so I guess this one was a "demo" to show the different cover styles. Also some of the pages are missing. But they weren't removed since the binding is intact and even pages that should be on the same sheet of paper are missing. For example, page 99 will be on the RH page and when you turn the page page 100 should be on the left but it will be missing and page 101 will be there instead! Very strange! I've never seen or heard of a book like it before. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jun 13 19:38:23 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300's In-Reply-To: <358188EE.436F45FE@crl.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980612145456.2967bee8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980613193823.08dfe558@intellistar.net> Greg, I doubt it's the same. The 6300s were built in Italy by Olivette and has a DB-25 connector for the video. But I do have an extra AT&T monitor if you need it. BTW I picked up a AT&T 386 computer at a hamfest today. It's a model A1076 and it's much larger than the 6300. Does anyone know anything about it? Joe At 01:00 PM 6/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> >> Roger, >> >> The 6300 isn't the Unix PC. It's a PC XT clone that will run IBM PC DOS >> (very compatible) and it has an 8086 CPU. BUT it requires a special >> monitor that gets it's power (150 Volts) from the CPU box through the video >> cable. > >I was looking at a Xerox 6060 PC that has a monitor which appears to be >the same. Does anyone know for sure if the Xerox monitor will run off a >6300 video port? If so, I might go back and see if it's still there... > >-- >mor@crl.com >http://www.crl.com/~mor/ > From fauradon at pclink.com Sat Jun 13 20:05:08 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Unusual find Message-ID: <000e01bd9730$7a1283a0$cf010bce@fauradon> I gues these are the equivalent of prototypes in the publishing industry. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 7:54 PM Subject: Re: Unusual find >At 07:19 PM 6/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Hi, >>I just found a book Titled Odyssey Pepsi to Apple by John Sculley. It is the >>advance copy from uncorrected manuscript. >>How often do anyone of you run into that kind of print? > > I rarely see this kind of thing, but I do have a book titled "Marching >Thru Georgia" that was published in the 1800s that has *three* hard covers >on it and all three are a different style, color and material! Inside the >book it mentions that the books are available with three different covers >so I guess this one was a "demo" to show the different cover styles. Also >some of the pages are missing. But they weren't removed since the binding >is intact and even pages that should be on the same sheet of paper are >missing. For example, page 99 will be on the RH page and when you turn the >page page 100 should be on the left but it will be missing and page 101 >will be there instead! Very strange! I've never seen or heard of a book >like it before. > > Joe > From mbg at world.std.com Sat Jun 13 20:18:02 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: ESDI disks Message-ID: <199806140118.AA02678@world.std.com> >More likely SCSI (single 50pin cable) or EDSI (two cables like MFM). >MFM drives topped out at 160mb or so, EDSI went to at least 400mb maybe >higher. ESDI, and I know they can handle higher capacity disks (though I can't speak to the actual limit) as I have several ESDI disks which are 770mb unformatted (about 668mb formatted). A couple of them are the Hitachi DK515-78. I also have some Maxtor drives, but I don't remember their designation. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Jun 13 17:11:15 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Hacked Mac and Other Systems References: <199806090702.AAA04279@lists4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3582F904.17F2413@goldrush.com> I Remember a Computer Shopper (you know, back when there ware actually a few decent articles in it, as well as a ton of advertising) referred to those Mac Clones as 'HackIntoshes' Sounds appropriate to me... > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Subject: Re: Early Mac Clones > > >bit hard getting a mac into a pc case though, remember that macs have all > >the connectors on board, > > > >desie > > Can't be any worse than the people that put Atari's or Amiga's in a PC > case. I've seen a Atari TT030 in a PC Tower, and it's quite popular among > Amiga people to tower their A1200's. All it takes is some creative cabling. > > Zane I have a set of texts on making a "Tower 64" (bundling a Commodore 64, Ram Expansion, drives, etc. in a tower PC case) which I have been seriously considering, actually I think I'd prefer a Tower 128 myself. Larry -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 13 21:12:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Today's Archeological Dig In-Reply-To: <199806140118.AA02678@world.std.com> Message-ID: I stumbled upon the elusive DIGIAG 2010! OK, before you wet your pants, this is just an old logic trainer, but a cool one with requistite toggle switches and blinkenlights. But something truely elusive that I've been trying to track down ever since I was aware of their existence: GO prototypes! Anybody who has read Kaplan's book about the demise of GO (Startup: A Silicon Valley Adventure) remembers the final days when they liquated GO's assets at auction. I bumped into a guy who bought-out the storage area of some guy that bought a bunch of the stuff from the auction! I hope to pick up more doodads and tech specs from him tomorrow. A Tandy PDD2 floppy drive. A couple of GRiDs: a 1910 and a GRiDLite. A couple of books: Don Lancaster's TTL Cookbook, and Trouble Shooting and Repairing your Commodore 64. A few Popular Electronics and Radio Electronics, including the issues with the SOL (PE July 76), TV Typewriter II (RE Feb/Mar/Apr 75), COSMAC ELF (PE Aug 76), and an RE May 81 issue that reviews the MMD-1, SYM-1, ELF II, COSMAC VIP, and Heath ET-3400! -- Doug From nerdware at laidbak.com Sat Jun 13 21:25:43 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (nerdware@laidbak.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Magazine values Message-ID: <199806140223.VAA01833@garcon.laidbak.com> Hi, gang. I'm just curious what old electronic magazines are worth. I haven't been able to find them in a price guide -- I have all the PE Altair issues (including the 680) and would like to know if they are worth anything I need to worry about insuring. Don't get excited -- I'm not going to part with them. It's just that I've heard that they're worth some money and I'd like to know. Thanks Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 13 21:38:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <199806140238.AA09977@world.std.com> 16 blank lines deleted. Considering the recent chatter on analog computers, plus the Dow Jones 10,000 problem somebody brought up, I found this listing at Haggle.Com pretty cute: http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201642752 -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From donm at cts.com Sun Jun 14 00:07:45 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: ESDI disks In-Reply-To: <199806140118.AA02678@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Megan wrote: > > >More likely SCSI (single 50pin cable) or EDSI (two cables like MFM). > >MFM drives topped out at 160mb or so, EDSI went to at least 400mb maybe > >higher. > > ESDI, and I know they can handle higher capacity disks (though I can't > speak to the actual limit) as I have several ESDI disks which are > 770mb unformatted (about 668mb formatted). A couple of them are the > Hitachi DK515-78. I also have some Maxtor drives, but I don't remember > their designation. Probably XT-8760E, Megan. - don > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | > | Digital Equipment Corporation | | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jun 14 00:31:23 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Magazine values In-Reply-To: <199806140223.VAA01833@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 nerdware@laidbak.com wrote: > I'm just curious what old electronic magazines are worth. I haven't been > able to find them in a price guide -- I have all the PE Altair issues > (including the 680) and would like to know if they are worth anything I > need to worry about insuring. Don't get excited -- I'm not going to > part with them. It's just that I've heard that they're worth some money > and I'd like to know. I paid $0.50 each for the classic issues I found today, but I've seen BYTE's first issue go for around $20, I think, via online auction. I'd expect the Altair issues to be in the same range, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear they sold for more. I find these mags to be invaluable references, but I'd prefer to have them all stored and indexed on CD-ROM than to have the actual mags, myself. BTW, I just heard from the prof at CSU Stan today that the 90's decade of BYTEs I left behind will be thrown out next week. If anybody in that general area wants them, let me know. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jun 14 01:36:50 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: 6502 lovers unite! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Somebody better let this guy know there's interest: << Subject: Re: one cp/m uzer more in this world From: "Richard A. Leary" Date: 1998/06/07 Message-ID: <357A2604.277DE058@voicenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm As the developer of DOS/65, I can say that there was and is a CP/M "port" for the 6502. It was not targeted at the STD bus but several OEMs did have a license to resell and they used STD bus. When I first created it, it was initially built on my S100 system with a Tarbell SD floppy controller and my home built wire wrapped 6502 CPU. While the floppy controller has changed and the CPU has been changed over the years, my S100 system still has a 6502 CPU in it. Actually I have that and a Godbout Z80. DOS/65 is not really a port since some things I never got around to (e.g., batch files) but otherwise it is pretty much there. Even includes a 6502 version of BASIC-E. Has an assembler, editor, small c, debugger, and much more. As far as disk access goes it will read and write CP/M disks without problem. For example, my S100 system has 8" SSSD, Kaypro II/IV, and 1.2 MB 5.25" floppies as well as a two partition hard disk. All drives are interchangeable between DOS/65 and CP/M. Price was actually pretty reasonable back when there was interest (early to mid 80s) at around $100. Versions were (and are) available for KIM, AIM65, OSI C1P, OSI C4P, S100, and other special configurations. At least one large AIM65 club had a group license. In this day and age, I've considered putting the software in some sort of shareware status but just have not had the time and was not sure there was any interest left. I still "play" with the software on occasion. If anyone is interested I would be glad to provide more info. Rich Leary Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > In article <357951A4.F9C33381@sprynet.com>, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > > >IIRC, CP/M was never ported to any 6502 based system (which is > >essentially what the 7501 is). There are versions for Z80/8080, 8086, > >and 68000 and I think that's about it. > > As wierd as this may sound, there was a fellow years ago that claimed > to have ported CP/M to 6502. He wanted a lot of $$'s for it and was > targeting the STD Buss controller market. 6502's were apparently > quite popular in that genre. > > I probably have the technical literature in a box. Somewhere. > > Steve >> From fauradon at pclink.com Sun Jun 14 08:57:28 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? Message-ID: <003801bd979c$5f0cab00$d1010bce@fauradon> In Circuit Cellar this month there is an add from timeline inc. It has a 6" VGA LCD 640 X 480 Sanyo LMDK55-22 listed for $25. That is the only info given on the add. their phone number is (800) 872-8878 no web site :( Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Rax To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Mini-Monitors? >>> >> >> >> >>> I'm also interested in same and know someone that might like info. >>> There is a truck load of applications for a cheap/compact/lowpower >>> VGA display. >> >>At least small CGA and mono monitors have been cheap for a long time. >>Places that advertise in Electronics Now tend to have them for ~$30ish. >>They are usually open-frame. >> > >Also try Nuts & Volts magazine. Lots of ads from purveyors of all sorts of >goodies for the mad inventor that lurks inside each of us. > >R. > >-- > > > >Warbaby >The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. >http://www.warbaby.com > >The MonkeyPool >WebSite Content Development >http://www.monkeypool.com > > Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. > > > > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 14 10:47:05 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: ESDI disks In-Reply-To: <199806140118.AA02678@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jun 13, 98 09:18:02 pm Message-ID: <9806141447.AA14758@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 660 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980614/7fb2adf5/attachment.ksh From jfedorko at virtualadmin.com Sun Jun 14 10:59:38 1998 From: jfedorko at virtualadmin.com (Joel Fedorko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... Message-ID: <01BD978C.798AD840@hardhead.virtualadmin.com> Sounds vaguely familiar, I remember two versions of the 2100s one had a black front panel w/red lights, the other one had a beige front panel. They were the CPU of HP2000 timesharing systems. They were pretty neat for their time (mid-70s) and I did my first "on-line" programming on them. The earlier ones boot off of paper tape, then the new technology... mylar oooh! I don't remember if they ever got weaned off tape booting though. Once you logged in you were at the command line and in a basic interpreter. They introduced me to instant gratification programming vs. waiting a day or so for the cards and the printout to come back or having to wire boards. Oh, yea... if it's one of the older ones, when the big oil filled capacitor goes in one of the disk drives the vented panel provides for spectacular visuals! If you don't want it, please let me know the details on it. -----Original Message----- From: museum@techniche.com [SMTP:museum@techniche.com] Sent: Saturday, June 13, 1998 3:36 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... This is somewhat tangential, but I suspect whoever is reading about HP Apollo's may be able to contribute. I came across a rack mount system in the local surplus store. The faceplate reads "HP 2100c Programmable Microcomputer System". Any ideas what this is? Worth picking up? Jon >> >> > > >> More likely SCSI (single 50pin cable) or EDSI (two cables like MFM). >> MFM drives topped out at 160mb or so, EDSI went to at least 400mb maybe >> higher. > >Definitely ESDI or SCSI. Although they could have had SMD or ESMD >as well. > >> >> > > >> Some kind of unix. > >Possibly, though the Apollo's ran Domain/OS which was Multics inspired >but later it went to BSD compatibility and looked like both Unix and >Multics. > >> >> Allison >> >> > >Actually, there are a lot of Apollo collectors out there and the video >card may be getable. The Apollos used 3C505's for ethernet and some other >Token ring interface. > >Bill > >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | >| 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | >| pechter@shell.monmouth.com | >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sun Jun 14 12:00:15 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980614092721.439f5f4e@ricochet.net> At 03:14 PM 6/12/98 -0400, you wrote: > >I'm also interested in same and know someone that might like info. >There is a truck load of applications for a cheap/compact/lowpower >VGA display. > >Allison Geez, Allison, If I was a EE god like yourself, I'd grab me a coupla busted|older laptops and build an interface for the LCD screens. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sun Jun 14 12:00:19 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300's Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980614092825.439f7910@ricochet.net> At 12:42 PM 6/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >> Found a stack of AT&T computers. Some are labelled "PC 6300" (The unix PC, >> iirc?) but others are marked "6300 WGS", a designation I've not heard of > >The 6300 WGS (Work Group Server) was a tower cased system that was not These were (I'm pretty sure) desktops, almost identical to the PC 6300's, only wiht a cream colored front. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sun Jun 14 12:00:22 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980614093438.4a27bf54@ricochet.net> At 01:30 PM 6/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >I know of sources that satisfy everything except the *cheap*. >Small VGA color monitors - 5", 7", etc. - are readily >available from all the folks who sell embedded systems and >components. Expect to pay $600 and up, though. > >For a similar price you can also get VGA-compatible color LCD >displays in the same size range. Ooh, that would be *perfect*, except for the $. 8^( Hmmm.. How good is the security at these places? 8^) But seriously, a 5-7" monitor for $600? I guess there's not as big a market for them, but the folks that need 'em *really* need 'em. >a Pentium motherboard that's only 2.5" square! Now that's pretty damn cool! I picked up a SIIG computer. It's a 386SX (and probably too new for here) and is about 4" wide by 3" tall, by about 11" long. Fully self contained, just add monitor and keyboard. Has 16-bit and 8-bit ISA Slots (1 each), and both floppy and hard drive. Pretty darn cool; it's my new voicemail system. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sun Jun 14 12:00:26 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Composite <> Video Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980614093626.85c70708@ricochet.net> Just want to check... Composite Video (as in a lot of 8-bit computers) is *not* the same thing as the Video ports on, say, a VCR or camcorder, right? And Composite is also not the same as what the Atari 2600 (et al) use to hook up to a telly? Thanks... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 14 12:31:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Composite <> Video In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980614093626.85c70708@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 14, 98 12:00:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1976 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980614/d2a21684/attachment.ksh From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Sun Jun 14 13:14:38 1998 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: RCA VP3301 Data Terminal Message-ID: <199806141814.OAA09917@zephyr.cacm.org> G'day. In the last large haul I made (which included an Eclipse S/130 and a Nova 4) for my collection, I acquired a little RCA terminal which bills itself as an "Office Appliance". It's quite clearly a small video terminal and seems to be based around the 1801 microprocessor. I'm wondering if anybody has the manuals for the little beast and can tell me what the power supply puts out, and on what pins (it's got a DIN connector on the back labelled "power"). I'd sort of like to fire it up and see how it works. Thanks! ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From cgregory at lrbcg.com Sat Jun 13 17:02:06 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Fw: Free Morrow S-100 CP/M Systems Message-ID: <003b01bd9716$e8537460$bf27a2ce@cliffgre> -----Original Message----- From: Art Carlson Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 10:50 AM Subject: Free Morrow S-100 CP/M Systems >*** DO NOT AUTOREPLY *** > > I have two Morrow S-100 systems complete with drives, manuals, and >disks, which I will give to a good home. They do not include terminals. > The catch is that they are located in Northwest Montana, and I will >not pack or ship them, they would have to be picked up here. > E-mail me with any serious inquiries. >SPAM BLOCK replace xnospamx in the address with acarlson > Art Carlson > From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 14 13:51:50 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: Uncle Roger's message of Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:25:39 -0700 References: <3.0.16.19980611162102.091709ee@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199806141852.LAA05181@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Uncle Roger wrote: > >> >> Final Demo of the Xerox Star Workstation > >> >> 5:30 to 7:00pm > > I'm really hoping to be there, but I still have to figure out how to get > from Walnut Creek at 5pm to Palto Alo at 5:30... I see a need for speed. Hmm, usually they start a few minutes late, but > Ooh, I *love* waving my appendages, especially my phelanges! That's the spirit! Tongues, too! > Only, Wednesdays, esp. the second wed are not good... Make it the second > Thursday and you've got a deal. 8^) Well, second Wednesday was Paul's suggestion (and "suggestion" may be too strong a word), and he and I are both flexible. I figure whoever shows up at PARC will probably yak about this some Wednesday night and hopefully we will arrive at something close enough to consensus to post a real time and place. -Frank McConnell From scottk5 at ibm.net Sun Jun 14 14:18:47 1998 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:32 2005 Subject: LCD DIsplay for Allison References: <3.0.16.19980611162102.091709ee@ricochet.net> <199806141852.LAA05181@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <35842217.6B5E@ibm.net> Don't know if this will work for you, but I knew I had seen something like it somewhere....took a while to track it down. On page 2 of their online catalog, BGMicro (www.bgmicro.com) has a LM 211 by Hitachi: 480x64 dot pixel display, comes with drivers but no controller, +5v and -9v supply recommended supply voltages, part no. LCD1008, cost...$3.50. Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 14 14:18:29 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? Message-ID: <199806141918.AA23730@world.std.com> <>I'm also interested in same and know someone that might like info. <>There is a truck load of applications for a cheap/compact/lowpower <>VGA display. <> <>Allison < I found their web site: http://www.digisys.net/timeline/lcd.html Looks like they have few for good prices Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Mini-Monitors? > >I'll call tehm but I suspect it will be like the DELL(sharp) LCD I have >and while VGA sized it is not a vga interface. > >Allison > From higginbo at netpath.net Sun Jun 14 15:29:01 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: FS: (cheep!) HP Controller 362 Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980614162843.006af958@netpath.net> I've got this Hewlett Packard Controller 362 and have no need for it. Anyone want it for the price of $5+shipping? It's about the size of a "pizza box" workstation, heck, I think it is a workstation. Boots up to something unix-like, has built-in VGA, 2mb memory, and a slot on the front for a 3.5" 1.44mb floppy drive, which I needed to scavenge for another machine. It weighs about 15 lbs. and I live in North Carolina, so shipping might be between $10-$15 depending on where you live. Features: HP-IB Keyboard connector, RJ-45? RS-232 Parallel HP-IB 98624A Card installed in the back, apart from the built-in HP-IB. Powe button on the front. I couldn't test it out too thoroughly, I did have a monitor to boot it up with, but no keyboard. Oh, and there's no HD inside the unit. I guess it takes an external HP-IB drive. If anyone wants it, first private response gets it. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 14 15:25:39 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Final Xerox Star demo In-Reply-To: Frank McConnell's message of 14 Jun 1998 11:51:50 -0700 References: <3.0.16.19980611162102.091709ee@ricochet.net> <199806141852.LAA05181@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <199806142025.NAA08013@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Frank McConnell wrote: > > I'm really hoping to be there, but I still have to figure out how to get > > from Walnut Creek at 5pm to Palto Alo at 5:30... > > I see a need for speed. Hmm, usually they start a few minutes late, > but Umm, duh. I plead damaged swap area. Anyway, usually they start a few minutes late, but at the TCMHC site I think that's because it takes that long for folks to quit gawking at the old iron and sit down. -Frank McConnell From gene at ehrich.com Sun Jun 14 17:13:45 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: MS Windows 1.03 for sale In-Reply-To: <002001bd97cb$c30ce780$a5010bce@fauradon> Message-ID: <199806142227.PAA29578@mxu3.u.washington.edu> I just acquired a copy of Microsoft Windows 1.03 with original box and all documents. It comes with 5-1/4 inch diskettes. I am open to bids on this original oldie!!!! Gene Gene@Ehrich.com http://www.voicenet.com/~generic On-Line Computer Garage Sale ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com Gene Ehrich P.O. Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 ------------------------------------------------------ From red at bears.org Sun Jun 14 18:07:12 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: <13363477349.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > It has a 68030 inside, and a 700-someodd meg MFM (?) harddisk. 33 MHz 68030, 760 MB ESDI disk. That's good, as it also means you've got the WD7000-ASE 'Three-way Peripheral Controller' (SCSI, ESDI, and floppy). > I have no idea what it runs. This one has a SummaSketch pad with it. > It was used for CAD stuff. Mentor Graphics sold a lot of software for Apollos. > What's it run? Domain/OS 10.x most likely. > WHen I power the machine on (It has a VERY LARGE [21"] RGB monitor. Any > chance of me connecting it to a PC? Slim. IMO, not worth the effort as the 8000-series monitors are uniformly poor. > There is 3 patterns. The first one is just garbage, the second one is > the same garbage only dimmer, and the third is a light blue blank > screen. All of them are light blue colored. Sounds like the power-on graphics self test, except for the blue colour. What is the model number on the graphics card? > There is a switch in the back (Next to the reset (?) button) than, when > pressed, activates a 4-LED indication inside the case. > When I start the machine, it flickers around, and stops at 1 on, 2 3 and 4 > blinking. Is this a failure code? What's this switch for? That switch, which is next to the reset button, is the 'service mode' switch. Flip it and reset, you come up to a mnemonic debugger instead of the normal self-tests and OS boot. Are the four LEDs on the front panel or on the motherboard? The four LEDs on the front panel indicate Power (pwr), domain ring activity (A & B), disk activity (C) and OS running/heartbeat (D). I have somewhere a list of motherboard LED diagnostic codes, but there're more than four LEDs on the MB. > This also has a network adapter, labled DOMAIN RING. > What wire does that expect? > I'm guessing it's not Ethernet... It's not. It expects Apollo Token Ring (not the same as IBM TR). It looks something like BNC ethernet except it's ring topology. From red at bears.org Sun Jun 14 18:17:24 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > If anyone knows anything, could they post to the list, please (or to > me...) as I picked up a pile of Apollo 4000 bits at a radio rally earlier > this year for not very much money. What I got was 3 motherboards, 3 68040 > CPUs, about 100Mbytes RAM (! - I tested the RAM in a friend's machine and > it all seems to work!), a case, 2 PSUs, an external graphics box with an > Intel i860 in it, HPIB cards, cables, etc. No drives or peripherals. The Apollo DN4000 was a 25 MHz 68020 machine. The HP/Apollo 400 series (400, 425, 433) were 030/040 machines and came along rather later. The main differences are that the HP 400s use industry standard 72 pin RAM, SCSI disks, are much smaller than the Apollo DOMAIN machines, and can run either Domain/OS or HP/UX prior to 10.0 (9.x was the last to support 68k processors) depending on the keyboard installed. Apollo machines proper have ISA bus, proprietary memory cards, ESDI disks (an Apollo DOMAIN machine cannot boot from a SCSI disk even if it has one), and cannot run HP/UX at all. > Either DomainOS or HPUX. I've seen a net/freeBSD port for it as well, > which may be the best option as it's free. But very incomplete. Only slightly more complete than the port of Plan 9 to NeXT hardware. ok r. From wpe at interserv.com Sun Jun 14 18:19:21 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: another classiccmp coinkydink URL References: <35832B41.443352BE@crl.com> Message-ID: <35845A79.F74EFA1@interserv.com> Didja notice the _minimum_ _bid_ on that?!?!?! $999.00? Hope they aren't in a big hurry to sell it.... Will Greg Troutman wrote: > > Considering the recent chatter on analog computers, plus the Dow Jones > 10,000 problem somebody brought up, I found this listing at Haggle.Com > pretty cute: > > http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?id=201642752 > > -- > mor@crl.com > http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From rexstout at uswest.net Sun Jun 14 18:52:42 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The Apollo DN4000 was a 25 MHz 68020 machine. The HP/Apollo 400 series >(400, 425, 433) were 030/040 machines and came along rather later. Ahh... Apollos... I have a DN3500 in the basement(under the table right now since I setup my radio stuff on the workbench). What I consider to be some of the strangest computers I have ever seen(with the exception of some micros[or where they minis?] that were kinda odd, but not like an Apollo). >Apollo machines proper have ISA bus, proprietary memory cards, ESDI disks >(an Apollo DOMAIN machine cannot boot from a SCSI disk even if it has >one), and cannot run HP/UX at all. It is ISA, but don't expect PC cards to work in it. I'm not sure of the specifics, but I DO know that most PC ISA cards will not work in an Apollo. As for booting from a SCSI disk, they can. Sort of. Hey, you can boot from a SCSI tape drive... As for HP/UX, I don't know about any of that. It may not run the actual OS, but there are some HP/UX-style programs on my 3500... If only I could figure out that damn machine! It's been driving me crazy ever since I got it... Anyone in the PDX area have a copy of the Domain/OS 10.4.x tapes I could borrow? >But very incomplete. Only slightly more complete than the port of Plan 9 >to NeXT hardware. I haven't heard much about other UNIX ports on an Apollo, but it is being worked on. I have the URL around here somewhere, I just need to dig it out and go see how far they are. Speaking of URL's, here are a few Apollo related sites: http://www.zepa.net/cgi-bin/apollo-cpus.cgi Apollo hardware info http://www.zepa.net/apollo/ I guess this is the root for the above... Lots of info http://www.auto.tuwien.ac.at/Software/Apollo/perl5/ Perl for Apollo http://apollo.pictinc.co.jp/apollo/english/ I think this is a software archive... http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~nbz32017/Apollo-FAQ.html The Apollo FAQ! -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 14 19:00:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Jun 14, 98 07:17:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980615/a8a7f46e/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Sun Jun 14 19:23:31 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, John Rollins wrote: > since I setup my radio stuff on the workbench). What I consider to be some > of the strangest computers I have ever seen(with the exception of some > micros[or where they minis?] that were kinda odd, but not like an Apollo). I would very much agree with this assessment. (: > It is ISA, but don't expect PC cards to work in it. I'm not sure of the > specifics, but I DO know that most PC ISA cards will not work in an Apollo. With some exceptions, no PC cards will work. Mainly because of driver issues (being non-existent and BIOSes hiding actual I/O calls needed to write the drivers), and the MC68k being byte-backward with respect to the ix86. > As for booting from a SCSI disk, they can. Sort of. Hey, you can boot from > a SCSI tape drive... Yes, it can boot from a SCSI QIC tape, but not from a SCSI disk. > As for HP/UX, I don't know about any of that. It may not run the actual > OS, but there are some HP/UX-style programs on my 3500... Thanks to the BSD or SYSV environments you can layer over AEGIS (the real Domain/OS environment). But many of the internals are nothing like UNIX. > If only I could figure out that damn machine! It's been driving me > crazy ever since I got it... Anyone in the PDX area have a copy of the > Domain/OS 10.4.x tapes I could borrow? I know exactly how you feel. I've had a half-operational DN5500 for a year and a half until just a month ago I got a DN4000 with enough spare parts (and OS tapes!) to fix it. I've got 10.3, 104, and the 10.4.1 update for Motorola and 10.4.P for Prism (DN10000) in the Seattle area. As you might imagine, I'm a bit covetous of my OS tapes, especially as I've not been able to archive them adequately yet. The OS media situation is compounded by the fact that HP is still supporting Apollo through 2000. Email me privately, and we'll see what we may work out. ok r. From red at bears.org Sun Jun 14 19:27:53 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Mine doesn't!. The RAM cards are _very_ custom and plug into 0.1" header > connectors, not SIMM sockets. My bad. I've never used a 400 and thought I'd vaguely recalled hearing that they used 72 pin SIMMs. They sound identical to the DN-series RAM cards, then. > Yes, standard SCSI disks. But my 425 is a larger box than my DN3500, I > think... Hmm. It seems like the 400-series I saw was about half as tall l (in a desktop orientation) and otherwise similar in size to my DN5500 (which started out life as a DN3500) > If I need the Apollo-style one, can I use the one from the DN3500? Yes. > The 425 motherboard has a single 16 bit ISA connector on the side. It's a > very cut-down bus, and AFAIK only the Domain Ring card was supported there. That is correct. ok r. From mor at crl.com Sun Jun 14 18:43:11 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: another classiccmp coinkydink URL References: <35832B41.443352BE@crl.com> <35845A79.F74EFA1@interserv.com> Message-ID: <3584600F.7A69270E@crl.com> will emerson wrote: > > Didja notice the _minimum_ _bid_ on that?!?!?! $999.00? Hope they > aren't in a big hurry to sell it.... Yeah, well that was part of why I thought it cute ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 14 19:36:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Jun 14, 98 08:27:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1278 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980615/ba75c6e5/attachment.ksh From rexstout at uswest.net Sun Jun 14 20:38:07 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: References: from "R. Stricklin" at Jun 14, 98 08:27:53 pm Message-ID: >I think it depends on the machine. My DN3500 is about PC/AT sized. My >425 is a less tall, but takes up more desk area. Hmm... I dunno, I think the DN3500 case is a bit larger than a normal PC/AT case... And I DEFINITLEY know that a PC motherboard will NOT fit in there! I tried... Although if you're in the mood for some serious chopping, you can cut out the back panel, replace the connector from the PS, add some new standoffs(and cut off some of the old), and maybe a few other things and it MIGHT work. But I'm certianly not in the mood to start in on my spare 3500 chassis... BTW, computer boards can be very nasty when you try to desolder them... I tried that on my spare 3500(didn't have anything but an extra disk and MB in it, the FPU went to my upgraded Mac SE), and I didn't even get ONE part out, just a face full of PCB fumes(whatever those boards are made out of STINKS!). Oh well... One other thing I somehow forgot. Those things are HEAVY! I'd guess 40-50lbs for the CPU and another 50lbs for the 15" or so monitor(amazing how both weight and size have changed, the 15" in front of me know even fits speakers in and weighs less...). Well, I need to get going, I'm going nuts(as will anyone that tries to build radio transceivers and spectrum analyzers without knowing anything about them)... :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 14 20:49:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: LCD DIsplay for Allison Message-ID: <199806150149.AA04934@world.std.com> Message-ID: > I know exactly how you feel. I've had a half-operational DN5500 for a year > and a half until just a month ago I got a DN4000 with enough spare parts > (and OS tapes!) to fix it. I've got 10.3, 104, and the 10.4.1 update for > Motorola and 10.4.P for Prism (DN10000) in the Seattle area. As you might > imagine, I'm a bit covetous of my OS tapes, especially as I've not been > able to archive them adequately yet. One of these days I have to start working on getting a DN10000 up and running. I do need disks (stolen from the machine), as well as a tube and a keyboard. Did all of the Apollos use a standard tube, or did they differ per family? What about the keyboards? The 10000s were considerably different from the Motorola based machines, so I have my doubts... When all is up and working, I am going to have to pit the Apollo against the Iris in a graphics contest, and see who wins. Too bad there are no versions of Doom for either. William Donzelli william@ans.net From red at bears.org Sun Jun 14 21:17:08 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > Did all of the Apollos use a standard tube, or did they differ per family? > What about the keyboards? The 10000s were considerably different from the > Motorola based machines, so I have my doubts... There were three families: 1024x768 @ 60 Hz, 1024x768 @ 72 Hz, and 1280x1024 (possibly both at 60 and 72 Hz, making four families) I'd have to check to find out which the 40 and 80 plane DVS video used. I can't answer to the keyboards, but I suspect it was identical to all the rest. The DOMAIN keyboard remained unchanged all the way up from the DN100 with the exception of three keys, and even so they were all compatible with each other. I can't say that I'd be willing to bet that the DN10k was any different in that regard. ok r. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Jun 14 22:24:15 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13363876159.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Patterns for video card] Really? How long's the patterns supposed to stay there? I get one of the three at random when I power it on. I'm not sure of the model #. [Where's the LEDs?] In the bottom-left of the motherboard (Assuming you're sitting with it in your lap, with the back facing away from you.) ------- From red at bears.org Sun Jun 14 22:55:29 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: <13363876159.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [Patterns for video card] > Really? How long's the patterns supposed to stay there? I get one of the > three at random when I power it on. I'm not sure of the model #. Pull the card and check for the model number; the patterns should only stay for a second or so and normally cycle through two or three before coming up with the power-on self test text. > [Where's the LEDs?] > In the bottom-left of the motherboard (Assuming you're sitting with it > in your lap, with the back facing away from you.) In your lap? Egad! I'll see if I can figure out what the LED diagnostic means. ok r. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Jun 14 23:40:49 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13363890097.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Pull the card ans look for a model number.] I'll do that. I did try powering on without the card, the LED's all flicker when power is applied, then it sits there. The pattern does stay about a second, flash blank, them reappear. Oh, and I didn't actually sit this in my lap, but this is where the LEDs would be had I sit it in my lap. It's actually on my bedroom floor. ------- From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 15 00:34:49 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: The GO Lombard Java Connection In-Reply-To: <13363890097.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: I searched Alta Vista to see if there was any info out there about my GO Lombard prototype, and I hit this interesting book epilogue about how Java got started. It has almost nothing to do with the GO prototype, but it's an interesting read for computer history buffs: http://www.starwave.com/people/naughton/book/examples/epilogue/ -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 15 03:56:34 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: MS Windows 1.03 for sale In-Reply-To: <199806142227.PAA29578@mxu3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Gene Ehrich wrote: > I just acquired a copy of > > Microsoft Windows 1.03 with original box and all documents. > > It comes with 5-1/4 inch diskettes. > > I am open to bids on this original oldie!!!! I bid $4billion! Oh wait, its only v1.03. I was looking for 1.02. Never mind. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 15 04:36:49 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: MS Windows 1.03 for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > I bid $4billion! Oh wait, its only v1.03. I was looking for 1.02. Never > mind. I have 1.02. Will that be cash or credit card? -- Doug From desieh at southcom.com.au Mon Jun 15 04:39:59 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: MS Windows 1.03 for sale Message-ID: <00b601bd9841$913c8280$ce173ccb@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 7:39 Subject: Re: MS Windows 1.03 for sale >On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > >> I bid $4billion! Oh wait, its only v1.03. I was looking for 1.02. Never >> mind. > >I have 1.02. Will that be cash or credit card? > >-- Doug > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm ive got 1.02 but its in french, or is that france?? want it:> maybe not................ From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon Jun 15 05:21:41 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Composite <> Video In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980614093626.85c70708@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980615062141.0068fb74@mail.wincom.net> At 12:00 PM 6/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Just want to check... Composite Video (as in a lot of 8-bit computers) is >*not* the same thing as the Video ports on, say, a VCR or camcorder, right? > And Composite is also not the same as what the Atari 2600 (et al) use to >hook up to a telly? Thanks... > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > Composite video has the monochrome, colour, and sync information combined, while Y/C and RGB signals have them separated. The video out of, for example, the Tandy 1000 was the same as NTSC video but of rather poor quality. If in doubt, try recording it on your vcr. Regards Charlie Fox From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Jun 15 07:28:46 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... Message-ID: >>>I think it depends on the machine. My DN3500 is about PC/AT sized. My >> >425 is a less tall, but takes up more desk area. didn't these things need some sort of domain controller or something to boot? I remember playing around with one at the place where I used to work repairing old machines and it got a sensible display up but then refused to boot. Mind you, I seem to remember that it took two keyboards - a standard PC one and an HP-specific one... the whole lot went to the tip sadly, minus the SCSI disks which were formatted for a different system (mind you, I rescued a few good machines from that place over time - the Tower32/700, Tektronix XD88, Philips P3800, numerous Link 480Z's and BBC model B's to name but a few...) >> disk and MB in it, the FPU went to my upgraded Mac SE), and I didn't even >> get ONE part out, just a face full of PCB fumes(whatever those boards are blowtorches work wonders surprisingly. It's very rare to toast a chip providing you're careful with heat distribution (not recommended for repair jobs on boards that you want to keep though ;*) cheers Jules From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Jun 15 07:38:08 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? Message-ID: Hi, I was just wondering on the rarity of DEC's PDPx machines - I gather that '11s are still pretty common (relatively!), but what about earlier machines in the line? Also - what did PDP stand for? (I don't expect that "Portable" came into it ;*) Sorry for the dumb question - I grew up with classic 8-bit micros and 32-bit Unix machines - shame I missed out on some of the big old boxes, they sound like fun (if a bit impractical from a storage point of view!! :) cheers Jules From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Jun 15 07:40:21 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? In-Reply-To: from "Julian Richardson" at Jun 15, 98 01:38:08 pm Message-ID: <199806151240.IAA19772@shell.monmouth.com> > > Hi, > > I was just wondering on the rarity of DEC's PDPx machines - I gather > that '11s are still pretty common (relatively!), but what about earlier > machines in the line? The 8's are also pretty common. I believe they're one of the most common mini's ever built along with the 11. > > Also - what did PDP stand for? (I don't expect that "Portable" came into Programmable Data Processor. (There's a PDP8 and PDP11 FAQ with a lot of info BTW). > it ;*) > Sorry for the dumb question - I grew up with classic 8-bit micros and > 32-bit Unix machines - shame I missed out on some of the big old boxes, > they sound like fun (if a bit impractical from a storage point of view!! > :) They were a LOT more fun than your average WINTEL box. > > cheers > > Jules > Glad to answer. Bill ex-DEC Field Service 1981-86 RIP Digital +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Jun 15 07:51:04 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? Message-ID: <199806151251.AA20761@world.std.com> >I was just wondering on the rarity of DEC's PDPx machines - I gather >that '11s are still pretty common (relatively!), but what about earlier >machines in the line? There seem to be a fair number of -8's in private hands, at least there are a number of people who post on alt.sys.pdp8 who have them. Probably more Decmates then older -8s. As for -11s, I have quite a few, mostly qbus... There are even some people who have -10s and -20s at home. I've not seen any info on others like -4, -7, -9, -15, etc (other than the emulators that Bob Supnik of DEC wrote). >Also - what did PDP stand for? (I don't expect that "Portable" came into >it ;*) Sorry for the dumb question - I grew up with classic 8-bit micros >and 32-bit Unix machines - shame I missed out on some of the big old >boxes, they sound like fun (if a bit impractical from a storage point of >view!! :) PDP = Programmed Data Processor. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Jun 15 08:03:08 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? Message-ID: >> The 8's are also pretty common. I believe they're one of the most >> common mini's ever built along with the 11. hmm. My university had a 7 which as far as I know was never used - it just sat there as a conversational point in one of the physics labs. I probably could have taken it, but just don't have the room for it (nor the knowledge to keep it running, and I don't have the time these days to learn about any new machines sadly!) Don't think I've ever seen any other PDP's aside from that 7 - either running or non-running. >>> Sorry for the dumb question - I grew up with classic 8-bit micros and >>> 32-bit Unix machines - shame I missed out on some of the big old boxes, >>> they sound like fun (if a bit impractical from a storage point of view!! >>> :) >> >> They were a LOT more fun than your average WINTEL box. hey, wintel machines are great fun - at least in the sense that they're amusing due to the terrible hardware and software that's a complete joke :) Jules From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 15 08:48:42 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? Message-ID: <199806151348.AA24697@world.std.com> from "Julian Richardson" at Jun 15, 98 02:03:08 pm Message-ID: <9806151355.AA11331@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 614 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980615/0d3a0ab7/attachment.ksh From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Jun 15 09:06:28 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? Message-ID: >>> hmm. My university had a 7 which as far as I know was never used - it >>> just sat there as a conversational point in one of the physics labs. I >>> probably could have taken it, but just don't have the room for it (nor >>> the knowledge to keep it running, and I don't have the time these days >>> to learn about any new machines sadly!) >> >> When was this -7 just sitting there, out of curiosity? well I graduated a couple of years ago, so I last saw it probably about three years ago now (never had much call to go into the physics buildings). as I said, I don't know PDP machines so couldn't tell you how much of a system there was there or what state it was in - it had a paper sign hanging on the front saying "PDP7" and used to get pointed out during tours (heh heh, so I guess there could have been anything in there!! :) wish I'd taken a better look at it (mind you, as I said I couldn't really justify keeping such a beast, and I used to get enough obsolete equipment that the computing department used to throw out anyway!) cheers J. > From william at ans.net Mon Jun 15 09:26:47 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > well I graduated a couple of years ago, so I last saw it probably about > three years ago now (never had much call to go into the physics > buildings). Now you have a duty. Go and rescue the thing. William Donzelli william@ans.net From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 15 09:37:47 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <000b01bd986b$b1bfc6a0$096fbcc1@hotze> Hi. Now, I don't want to start a flamewar, but still, Microsoft HAS played an important part in personal computing, for better or for worse. From 1986 or so onwards, they were a industry dominator. Now, from what I understand, the origional MS logo was GREEN? Somebody have a picture? Other than OS's and current Office Applications (and, of course, Internet Explorer, which is a decent browser, and DOES have pleanty of innovation, if you're prepared to admit it.), what did MS make? Anything for say... the Apple II? PDP's? UN*X boxes (once again, omitting current ports of IE 4.0)? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jun 15 09:50:22 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <000b01bd986b$b1bfc6a0$096fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980615105022.008209f0@netpath.net> At 05:37 PM 6/15/98 +0300, you wrote: > Other than OS's and current Office Applications (and, of course, >Internet Explorer, which is a decent browser, and DOES have pleanty of >innovation, if you're prepared to admit it.), what did MS make? Anything >for say... the Apple II? PDP's? UN*X boxes (once again, omitting current >ports of IE 4.0)? Does Microsoft BASIC on the TRS-80 Model 100 count? ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 15 11:01:56 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: DEC TK-25 In-Reply-To: <4523@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806151505.KAA28464@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> I've located a TK-25 (w/ tape ) at a surplus house. Was there anyone on this list looking for one? If so, please respond via private e-mail. Jeff jeff.kaneko@ifrsys.com From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 15 10:00:39 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Alpha's (OT) In-Reply-To: <199806132109.AA08045@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980615100039.00bc2eb0@pc> At 05:09 PM 6/13/98 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: > >< Ciao, > >Ah, you gotta be kiddin.... The alpha is maybe max 8 years old! Which "Alpha"? Alpha Micro? DEC Alpha AXP machines? And probably a dozen other "alphas"? :-) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 15 10:04:06 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Unusual find In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980613193309.08dfeb7c@intellistar.net> References: <000701bd972a$2b64f860$cf010bce@fauradon> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980615100406.00c24550@pc> At 07:33 PM 6/13/98, Joe wrote: > > I rarely see this kind of thing, but I do have a book titled "Marching >Thru Georgia" that was published in the 1800s that has *three* hard covers >on it and all three are a different style, color and material! Inside the >book it mentions that the books are available with three different covers >so I guess this one was a "demo" to show the different cover styles. > I've never seen or heard of a book >like it before. In the late 1800s, books were commonly sold in advance and by subscription (as in a series by Mark Twain, for example) by travelling sales people. They carried sample books such as the one you describe, and offered the customer their choice of binding. To keep this on-topic, computer book publishers today will circulate a dozen or so preliminary copies of a book to reviewers at magazines for promotional purposes as well as to industry experts to proof-read. I've got a few of these, they're typically crudely perfect-bound with color-copy covers. - John From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 15 11:08:57 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <000b01bd986b$b1bfc6a0$096fbcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Jun 15, 98 05:37:47 pm Message-ID: <9806151508.AA13114@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1428 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980615/12afd078/attachment.ksh From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 15 11:14:52 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <4523@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806151518.KAA28513@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > Hi. Now, I don't want to start a flamewar, but still, Microsoft HAS played > an important part in personal computing, for better or for worse. From 1986 > or so onwards, they were a industry dominator. > Now, from what I understand, the origional MS logo was GREEN? Somebody > have a picture? Yes it was green. If I can find an example, I'll scan it for you. > Other than OS's and current Office Applications (and, of course, > Internet Explorer, which is a decent browser, and DOES have pleanty of > innovation, if you're prepared to admit it.), what did MS make? Anything > for say... the Apple II? PDP's? UN*X boxes (once again, omitting current > ports of IE 4.0)? Well, you're getting a copy of MULTIPLAN for the Apple ][. Seems like there was a word processor for the A][ as well. Don't forget Excel for the MAC. Excel was on the Macintosh long before it became a standard on that 'other' windowing OS. In fact, Excel is the only Microsoft product that actually *PREDATES* the operating system it runs on! No, MS Word dosen't count-- WinWord was a totally new product, bearing *no* resemblence to the original 'Word' for Mess-DOs. Excel was a straight port (well, it *looks* that way, anyway). If I look through some old issues of byte, I'm sure I'll find others . . . Jeff From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 15 10:39:30 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <002e01bd9873$df6a7980$096fbcc1@hotze> Yep. I'll count that. BTW, welcome back! One time, I was eMailing you for help on something... didn't get a response... then you stopped posting to ClassicCmp... Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: John Higginbotham To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 8:59 PM Subject: Re: Old Microsoft stuff... >At 05:37 PM 6/15/98 +0300, you wrote: > >> Other than OS's and current Office Applications (and, of course, >>Internet Explorer, which is a decent browser, and DOES have pleanty of >>innovation, if you're prepared to admit it.), what did MS make? Anything >>for say... the Apple II? PDP's? UN*X boxes (once again, omitting current >>ports of IE 4.0)? > >Does Microsoft BASIC on the TRS-80 Model 100 count? > > >________________________________________ >john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - >webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - >"Teamwork is essential; it gives the - >enemy other people to shoot at." - > > > > From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 15 10:39:36 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <002f01bd9873$e22b6e40$096fbcc1@hotze> >Green? For the first half-dozen years I never saw any Microsoft >documents in color. I have several Microsoft manuals and binders >from when their office was in Arizona and all of those are >black on white. Later stuff from when they moved to a suite in >Bellevue was still in black and white. I didn't see any green until >1980-1982 when Microsoft was selling Digital Research's CP/M with >their Softcard (Z-80 drop-in for the Apple II). OK. How many softcards were made? >BASIC implementation for dozens of personal computers in the late 70's >and very early 80's, most importantly. I know that. Was their first BASIC the 4K tape one for the Altair? >> Anything >> for say... the Apple II? > >Absolutely. Applesoft BASIC (in every II+ and later, and installed as >an option in most II's) was written by Microsoft. Microsoft also sold >several well-known Apple II games (ADVENTURE is the most well-known). They wrote that? DUDE!!!! (I recently aquired a Applesoft BASIC manual (C) 1979, in near mint condition.) >You know, I could go on for pages and pages with software that Microsoft >sold in the late 70's and early 80's for non PC-platforms. You'd probably >be much better educated about computing in that era if you simply went >and found the _BYTE_ magazines from that time frame and read the ads. OK. See, I checked out MS's museum, and I'd have to say that from a corporate perspective, it had a pretty fair view of things. They had the Apple II, Macintosh, Altair, etc. there. >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) Tim D. Hotze From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 15 10:40:53 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <9806151508.AA13114@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Absolutely. Applesoft BASIC (in every II+ and later, and installed as > an option in most II's) was written by Microsoft. Microsoft also sold > several well-known Apple II games (ADVENTURE is the most well-known). Olympic Decathalon (responsible for many a broken left/right arrow key required for the running competitions). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 15 11:44:31 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 15, 98 08:40:53 am Message-ID: <9806151544.AA18841@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 636 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980615/12946bb2/attachment.ksh From archive at navix.net Mon Jun 15 11:11:22 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... References: <000b01bd986b$b1bfc6a0$096fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <358547A8.433CED8D@navix.net> Hotze wrote: > Hi. Now, I don't want to start a flamewar, but still, Microsoft HAS played > an important part in personal computing, for better or for worse. From 1986 > or so onwards, they were a industry dominator. > Now, from what I understand, the origional MS logo was GREEN? Somebody > have a picture? > Other than OS's and current Office Applications (and, of course, > Internet Explorer, which is a decent browser, and DOES have pleanty of > innovation, if you're prepared to admit it.), what did MS make? Anything > for say... the Apple II? PDP's? UN*X boxes (once again, omitting current > ports of IE 4.0)? Microsoft did write some early game software for the 8-bit computers. I have the original cassettes and disks, and manuals, for such programs as: Olympic Decathlon for both the Apple and the TRS-80, a debugger for the TRS-80, a Level III (yep) BASIC for the TRS-80 Model 1 on cassette, a version of Colossal Cave for the TRS-80, and even a texted based application for the TRS-80 Model 1 that I can't even remember what it is for sure right now. This last one was a _very_ early application of some sort, as I remember it only flashed Microsoft for about an 8th of a second on the startup screen. Anyway, they did do some early stuff that was fairly decent before they (he?) decided to play monopoly with the world of computers. :-) CORD > Thanks, > > Tim D. Hotze -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Jun 15 10:48:15 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: >> Olympic Decathalon (responsible for many a broken left/right arrow key >> required for the running competitions). is that the same game as Daley Thompson's Decathalon on the old Spectrum? Seem to remember that burning out a few keys - I didn't realise it was a Microsoft product though!! Jules > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 15 10:51:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:33 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <199806151551.AA26119@world.std.com> >> Which "Alpha"? Alpha Micro? Hmm, is that "Alpha micro" as in "Alphatronic PC"? I have a few of those things lying around someplace in various states - my old university wrote their own terminal software for them, burned it out to eeprom, and we used to use them as terminals to access the Unix systems. IIRC I did see reference to an expansion box that allowed the use of hard drives with CP/M on - I did a lot of digging at the time and never turned up anything for them - I just had the custom Uni terminal ROMs and a set of BASIC ROMs that originally came with the machines. They were made by Triumph-Adler, from what I remember. Any information on these boxes would be most helpful!! (I have the original manuals, but they don't exactly go into a lot of detail) cheers Jules > From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 15 12:01:47 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <4536@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806151604.LAA28861@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Methinks they also did a port of MS-Word for the AT&T Unix-PC 7300 (A fine 68010 box, BTW). Jeff > > Apple: Apple softcard combind package of CP/M and MS languges and a z80. > TRS80: Disk basic. > PDP-11: Didn't MS do a unix varient? > UNix... they did have a hand in a PC unix and apps for it. > > Allison > > > > From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 15 11:18:07 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Julian Richardson wrote: > >> Olympic Decathalon (responsible for many a broken left/right arrow key > >> required for the running competitions). > > is that the same game as Daley Thompson's Decathalon on the old > Spectrum? Seem to remember that burning out a few keys - I didn't > realise it was a Microsoft product though!! I have no idea, but I would venture to guess the answer is no. The Spectrum version was most likely written by some guy named Daley Thompson :), perhaps inspired by MS Olympic Decathlon. MS-OD is copyright 1981 and was written by Timothy W. Smith. On a side note, on the Apple version, if you pressed RESET and then typed TWS (the author's initials) real fast, you were dumped into the monitor. This was an easter egg left in the original. BTW, I compiled a list of over 140 Apple ][ easter eggs and wrote them all up in a nice file, explaining where to find them and how to get to them. I distributed it on the comp.sys.apple2 newsgroups a couple years back, and if anyone's interested just e-mail me and I'll send you a copy. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 15 11:16:05 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Alpha's (OT) Message-ID: <005801bd9879$752892e0$096fbcc1@hotze> Nope. I mean (mostly) DEC systems based on the Alpha 64-bit microprocessor. Sorry for any confusions... Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 15 11:16:30 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <005901bd9879$76890d40$096fbcc1@hotze> >First off your dates are grossly in error. MS in the persona of Gates >was involved in putting basic on the altair via MITS. When CP/M was >gaining ground as the dominent 8080/z80 OS microsoft was the dominent >language supplier. The majik system was a z80 running cp/m and MSbasic >compiler, MAC and L80, and maybe Multiplan. Yep. I know that. But MS dominance didn't exactly happen overnight. They didn't have much of a hold in anything until the IBM PC took off... >Apple: Apple softcard combind package of CP/M and MS languges and a z80. >TRS80: Disk basic. >PDP-11: Didn't MS do a unix varient? >UNix... they did have a hand in a PC unix and apps for it. You mean Xenix? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Jun 15 11:20:35 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: DEC TK-25 References: <199806151505.KAA28464@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <358549D3.E877844A@halcyon.com> Jeff, Here we are again! I am definitiely interested in this. I can use it in an RT-11 system I have. Let me know what you would like to do with it. Thanks, Dave Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > I've located a TK-25 (w/ tape ) at a surplus house. > Was there anyone on this list looking for one? > If so, please respond via private e-mail. > > Jeff > > jeff.kaneko@ifrsys.com From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jun 15 11:23:43 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Pen Windows 2.0 In-Reply-To: <199806151604.LAA28861@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> References: <4536@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980615122343.0081e2a0@netpath.net> Computer: GRiDPad 1912 (V20/2mb/20mb HD/640x400x2 6300 CGA mode I want to install Pen Windows 2.0 on it, but am not sure which version of Windows I need to use with Pen Windows 2.0. When I first acquired Pen, I thought it was a full Windows version, but there's no setup, just an install.exe file. The other files on the 2 5.25" disk set have the date: 05/08/92. IIRC, Windows 3.0 was out then, right? But I don't want to burden the poor creature with all that, I was wanting to just put Windows 2.x on there. Since all of my windows install disks are at home, I can't try it right now. So does someone know which version I need? Any pointers to a Pen Windows website? I'd like specs, hardware requirements, etc. I have toyed with the idea of putting GEOS on it, but the only version I have is for the C-64. ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 15 12:43:25 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <005901bd9879$76890d40$096fbcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Jun 15, 98 07:16:30 pm Message-ID: <9806151643.AA16737@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 514 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980615/80c66230/attachment.ksh From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 15 11:51:34 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <006c01bd987e$0267cbe0$096fbcc1@hotze> OK. I just purchased a Windows CE handheld. I realized that: 1) It represents MS's rebirth. That, along with cross-platform apps, means that MS isn't going to be doing to much with Windows 9x/NT after a couple years... 2) It's lighting fast, and covers all kinds of processors. Now, I've got 2 questions: 1) With a Velo, is there any way to save files after it's turned off without purchasing a hard card? 2) With a MIPS-based handheld, could I get stuff moving between this and my N64? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 15 11:54:54 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <007501bd987e$54a45900$096fbcc1@hotze> I guess you're right. But still... er... um... Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Tim Shoppa To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 10:46 PM Subject: Re: Old Microsoft stuff... >> Yep. I know that. But MS dominance didn't exactly happen overnight. They >> didn't have much of a hold in anything until the IBM PC took off... > >I'd disagree with you here. Microsoft had a much broader scope before >the IBM PC, selling hundreds of pieces of software for dozens of >different platforms. And certainly a plurality, if not a majority, of 8-bit >home micros booted straight into Microsoft BASIC. Just about every >consumer-oriented-everything-in-a-box CP/M system came bundled with >MBASIC! > >Tim. From red at bears.org Mon Jun 15 12:39:12 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Julian Richardson wrote: > didn't these things need some sort of domain controller or something to > boot? I remember playing around with one at the place where I used to > work repairing old machines and it got a sensible display up but then > refused to boot. While the machine doesn't require the DOMAIN RING adapter to boot, often large parts of the OS were installed on other machines in a scheme something like a cross between NFS and SMB. This (and the lack of privileged user passwords) is the biggest hurdle for prospective used-Apollo buyers. ok r. From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 15 13:28:45 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <006c01bd987e$0267cbe0$096fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Hotze wrote: > OK. I just purchased a Windows CE handheld. I realized that: > 1) It represents MS's rebirth. That, along with cross-platform apps, means > that MS isn't going to be doing to much with Windows 9x/NT after a couple > years... Thanks for the tip, Tim. I'll dump all of my intel stock now. :-) > 2) It's lighting fast, and covers all kinds of processors. The H/PC was a bit of a flop. For some reason, not many people wanted to buy a machine that looked like Windows95, but ran on slower hardware with no application compatibility. However, I like the new Pilot rip-off, the Palm-sized PC, better. And if you've never seen their Auto PC for cars, brace yourself for some drooling (guaranteed to flop at the current $2K price though). They're also making inroads into embedded systems with CE. > Now, I've got 2 questions: > > 1) With a Velo, is there any way to save files after it's turned off without > purchasing a hard card? You've got internal battery-backed RAM for that. > 2) With a MIPS-based handheld, could I get stuff moving between this and my > N64? Sure, just as easily as you can move stuff between the 6502 based Nintendo and an AIM-65 (i.e., no way dOOd -- even if the CPU is the same, nothing else is). However, I seem to recall that Microsoft recently signed-up a game machine manufacturer for CE, and it was either Nintendo or Sega. -- Doug From jon at techniche.com Mon Jun 15 13:33:23 1998 From: jon at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: PS to Kilobaud articles. Message-ID: <199806151833.OAA11335@camel14.mindspring.com> Oh yea Ward, One other thing. I just re-read your message and remember the comment about Laconia. If you're coming to NH you can pick these up. That's where we're located, in Manchester. Jon From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 15 13:41:15 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Pen Windows 2.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980615122343.0081e2a0@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > Computer: GRiDPad 1912 (V20/2mb/20mb HD/640x400x2 6300 CGA mode CGA is 640x200. If you install GEOS, for example, you'll want to use the AT&T graphics driver. > I want to install Pen Windows 2.0 on it, but am not sure which version of > Windows I need to use with Pen Windows 2.0. When I first acquired Pen, I > thought it was a full Windows version, but there's no setup, just an > install.exe file. The other files on the 2 5.25" disk set have the date: > 05/08/92. IIRC, Windows 3.0 was out then, right? But I don't want to burden > the poor creature with all that, I was wanting to just put Windows 2.x on > there. IIRC, Pen Windows 1.0 was for Windows 3.x, and Pen Windows 2.0 was for Windows 95. GEOS is by far your best bet if you want to burden the thing with a GUI. -- Doug From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jun 15 13:42:11 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: References: <006c01bd987e$0267cbe0$096fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980615144211.00826100@netpath.net> At 01:28 PM 6/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >Sure, just as easily as you can move stuff between the 6502 based Nintendo >and an AIM-65 (i.e., no way dOOd -- even if the CPU is the same, nothing >else is). However, I seem to recall that Microsoft recently signed-up a >game machine manufacturer for CE, and it was either Nintendo or Sega. Sega. For the new 128-bit console system: Dreamcast. Coming to America next year. Out in Japan by Fall this year. Err, man, those Atari Pong games sure were a gas back in the 70's, man! Groooovy! *Whew!* Close one. ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jun 15 13:53:46 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Pen Windows 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19980615122343.0081e2a0@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980615145346.00824d80@netpath.net> At 01:41 PM 6/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > >> Computer: GRiDPad 1912 (V20/2mb/20mb HD/640x400x2 6300 CGA mode > >CGA is 640x200. If you install GEOS, for example, you'll want to use the >AT&T graphics driver. Right. The manual states that 640x400x2 is a "tweaked" CGA mode. >IIRC, Pen Windows 1.0 was for Windows 3.x, and Pen Windows 2.0 was for >Windows 95. GEOS is by far your best bet if you want to burden the thing >with a GUI. I just tried to run it on my desktop. First question it askes was "What 22xx series of GRiDPad are you installing to?" Back to the drawing board. I doubt it'll work with the old 1912. If I could find GEOS, I'd install it. Only version I have is for the C-64. ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Mon Jun 15 14:27:25 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980615144211.00826100@netpath.net> References: <006c01bd987e$0267cbe0$096fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980615142725.00929a70@pop3.webzone.net> At 02:42 PM 6/15/98 -0400, you wrote: >At 01:28 PM 6/15/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>Sure, just as easily as you can move stuff between the 6502 based Nintendo >>and an AIM-65 (i.e., no way dOOd -- even if the CPU is the same, nothing >>else is). However, I seem to recall that Microsoft recently signed-up a >>game machine manufacturer for CE, and it was either Nintendo or Sega. > >Sega. For the new 128-bit console system: Dreamcast. Coming to America next >year. Out in Japan by Fall this year. > >Err, man, those Atari Pong games sure were a gas back in the 70's, man! >Groooovy! >*Whew!* Close one. Please don't write about Dreamcast in here--my 10 year old son might see it, then I'll have to listen to another two hours of how cool it's going to be (guess who he gets that trait from?)--then I'll have to explain yet again why 128 bits is theoretically better than 64 bits. Stick to stuff that bores him so I can read in peace, please! > > >________________________________________ >john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - >webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - >"Teamwork is essential; it gives the - >enemy other people to shoot at." - > -- David Wollmann dwollmann@ibmhelp.com From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 15 14:34:57 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980615144211.00826100@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > Err, man, those Atari Pong games sure were a gas back in the 70's, man! > Groooovy! No, no. Tube machines were a gas in the 50's. PDP-1's were groovy in the 60's. Pong was ultra-bitchen in the 70's. The Amiga was gnarly in the 80's. And, well, the 90's ... :-( dOOd. -- Doug From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Jun 15 16:12:16 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: TRS 80 Model 4 Wanted (fwd) Message-ID: Can anyone in 'NE' (Sorry, I can't always remember all of your states abbreviations... at least we only have 12. Is that Nebraska?) help this guy out? Please reply directly to him, not me or the list. ttyl srw ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:38:53 -0700 From: COMPASS To: scott@saskatoon.com Subject: TRS 80 Model 4 Wanted We are looking for a TRS 80 Model 4 to operate an engraving machine (the old one died). Any suggestions? Pete Godfrey Compass Materials Handling Systems A Division of Schuler Industries, Inc. PO Box 714 Beatrice, NE 68310 Phone: 402-223-5678 Fax: 402-228-4193 Email: compass@navix.net From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 15 16:51:55 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <006c01bd987e$0267cbe0$096fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Hotze wrote: > Now, I've got 2 questions: > > 1) With a Velo, is there any way to save files after it's turned off without > purchasing a hard card? > 2) With a MIPS-based handheld, could I get stuff moving between this and my > N64? Tim, please ask these questions on comp.sys.handhelds. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 15 16:55:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > > > Err, man, those Atari Pong games sure were a gas back in the 70's, man! > > Groooovy! > > No, no. Tube machines were a gas in the 50's. PDP-1's were groovy in the > 60's. Pong was ultra-bitchen in the 70's. The Amiga was gnarly in the > 80's. And, well, the 90's ... :-( dOOd. C'mon, Doug. Get with it! In the 90's they're fly! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From cfandt at servtech.com Mon Jun 15 16:55:26 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <199806130256.WAA00173@smtp.interlog.com> References: <357F226F.1E436EF4@crl.com> Message-ID: <199806152156.VAA27471@cyber2.servtech.com> At 22:57 12-06-98 +0000, "Lawrence Walker" wrote: >> -- snip the somewhat unimportant stuff -- > It is especially galling to us in low-availability areas when you guys post >about acquiring them by the pallet. : ^ {{ > >ciao larry >lwalker@interlog.com > Really galling! I live in NY. But the area is _Western_ NY -specifically in a county considered to be one of the most agricultural/rural in the state (more so than Ithaca area, Allison). Yes, when I hear of folks here who go to the thrift stores and haul home a carload or two for very reasonable prices or when a PDP 11/something system complete w/disk packs, documents, etc. is available for hauling away, etc., etc. I have a hollow, lonesome feeling :-( . The (only) local thrift is only 150 meters from my house. Their prices are way high as compared to what some of the discussions here provide a picture of. For example, last week I checked and saw a no-name monochrome monitor priced at $40.00, a PS/2 color monitor at $25.00, and four pieces together: a beat-up looking Apple III (missing a key in lower-left, missing case screws, dirty, no power supply pack), Okidata 80 col. printer of some type and two shoeboxes of loose and dusty 5.25" floppy disks of PC software all for $40.00. They don't come down in price too much but someone is apparenly buying this stuff. Sheesh! However, I am not into Apple, Commodore, Atari and other of what I call 'Truly Home Computers' which usually turn up there. "Sure ", you say, "just rent a truck or something to go fetch that S/370 system!" Well, I likely would if it was within say, 100-200 miles or so and virtually free for the taking. But all joking aside, that doesn't happen that much around here (besides, if W. Donzelli even sniffs a nearby-to-me 370's availability he'd probably be there in ten minutes or less ) I will rely on you folks to post interesting things available for sale --but then shipping for a heavy object can kill a deal. Yes, please let all of us on the list have first crack at something before putting it onto Ebay or whatever. On rare occasions I have gotten good items for my collection such as my DG Nova 1200, HP 250/30, IBM 9370 and PC's and parts which were all decommisioned from the company I work for. Thankfully, they know I'm a collector/historian/old-stuff-nut. But we don't have much else intersting left except for a few old PC's which I already have a garage-full (well, almost. It's over half a garage-full.) With that said, I must "collect" and learn old computer hardware and s/w vicariously through most of you. So please make sure you continue to have interesting and thoughtful (and OT :-) ) discussions on the old classics which I may never have a chance to even see. Thanks for listening. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 15 12:24:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: from "John Rollins" at Jun 14, 98 06:38:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2231 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980615/587e6de1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 15 12:34:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? In-Reply-To: from "Julian Richardson" at Jun 15, 98 01:38:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1292 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980615/da6cec39/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 15 12:36:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? In-Reply-To: <199806151240.IAA19772@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Jun 15, 98 08:40:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 217 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980615/2591c700/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 15 12:46:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <002f01bd9873$e22b6e40$096fbcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Jun 15, 98 06:39:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1044 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980615/14012d58/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jun 15 17:06:38 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: New toy, HP Apollo 4500, and it's broken... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13364080481.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Video card model number?] All I can find is a part number - 10104. I have another video card, I'll try it out. The LEDs on the front says the video was at fault. ------- From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 15 17:14:32 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > C'mon, Doug. Get with it! In the 90's they're fly! Eh? Who is a fly, sonny? Oh, I get it. Like Microsoft is dope. ;-) ObCC: can anybody point me to datasheets for AT&T's CRISP and Hobbit MPUs? -- Doug From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jun 15 17:19:22 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980615181835.006a682c@netpath.net> At 02:34 PM 6/15/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >No, no. Tube machines were a gas in the 50's. PDP-1's were groovy in the >60's. Pong was ultra-bitchen in the 70's. The Amiga was gnarly in the >80's. And, well, the 90's ... :-( dOOd. Is it just me or do the 90's seem like the 70's and 80's combined with all the really cool stuff left out? Speaking of decades, after the year 2000 bug totally obliterates all known forms of biological life on the planet, What will we call the first decade? I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the heck are we supposed to pronounce it? I think I have stumbled upon an even bigger problem than the Y2k problem was ever forseen as! - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jun 15 17:23:18 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980615182255.00687584@netpath.net> At 06:46 PM 6/15/98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >Another microsoft product which I've not seen mentioned here yet was, of >course, the Microsoft mouse for PCs (and later those Microsoft keyboards) Those bus mice? I worked on a friend's machine that had one: A Xerox XT class running Windows 1.0. 640x400x2 mode I believe. Oh yeah, they were called Inport Bus mice, ran off their own 8-bit card. Not a bad mouse for it's time. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From mbg at world.std.com Mon Jun 15 17:27:47 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <199806152227.AA20023@world.std.com> >>Absolutely. Applesoft BASIC (in every II+ and later, and installed as >>an option in most II's) was written by Microsoft. Microsoft also sold >>several well-known Apple II games (ADVENTURE is the most well-known). > >They wrote that? DUDE!!!! (I recently aquired a Applesoft BASIC manual >(C) 1979, in near mint condition.) They didn't write the original... that was Crowther and Woods (if memory serves). They may have written *a* version... but history doesn't start with PCs and MicroSoft. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 15 17:33:28 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Off-topica In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980615181835.006a682c@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > Is it just me or do the 90's seem like the 70's and 80's combined with all > the really cool stuff left out? > > Speaking of decades, after the year 2000 bug totally obliterates all known > forms of biological life on the planet, What will we call the first decade? > I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the heck > are we supposed to pronounce it? I think I have stumbled upon an even > bigger problem than the Y2k problem was ever forseen as! Well, older southern men in the US used to say, for example, "19 ot 6" for 1906. So I guess we could revive that in 2006 and say "20 ot 6". But this has nothing to do with the original question. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 15 17:34:05 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Collectable Old Microsoft Stuff Message-ID: Here's some old Microsoft hardware that's worth collecting: - MacEnhancer (a port expander for the Mac 128/512) - Mach 10 (V20 accelerator for IBM PCs) - Mach 20 (286 accelerator for IBM PCs, with daughtercard options) - Mouse v1.0 - PC Jr. Booster - Premium Softcard IIe - Ramcard - Softcard (Z80 card for the Apple II) - Systemcard (Like an AST Six-Pack, for the IBM PC) And collectable software: - Adventure (a.k.a. Colossal Cave, versions for TRS80, IBM, & Apple) - Beethoven v1.0 (the first mass market multimedia CD-ROM) - Bob (hey, if you own a Lisa or a PC jr. you need their software equivalent!) - Flight Simulator v1.0 - Windows 1.03 Kai From peacock at simconv.com Mon Jun 15 17:46:57 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E92C@NT486> I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the heck are we supposed to pronounce it? Simple, as anyone who owns a .30-06 deer rifle can tell tell you, it will be the "double ought" decade. Same as 100 years ago, the first year will be "ought zero". BTW, .30-06 is a US rifle caliber, .308 inches (7.62mm), designed in 1906, or "thirty ought six". 20 years from now, we'll be talking about that old 500Mhz P II made back in "Ought One". Jack Peacock From mbg at world.std.com Mon Jun 15 17:36:33 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Pen Windows 2.0 References: <4536@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806152236.AA29917@world.std.com> I have an NCR System 3130, which is a 386-based system with 8mb of memory and a 20mb hard disk. It also has some sort of PROM system disk (as device d:). I currently have no way of transferring info to and from the machine and would love to find the external floppy adapter for it... Might someone on this list have one laying around, or be able to provide a pointer to someone who has one? Also, does anyone have any technical documents for this machine? When I upgraded the memory and installed a modem, the system would no longer cleanly boot up from the C drive... it gets stuck somewhere in the process while it is still using D:... Thanks in advance for any info... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Jun 15 17:38:52 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: DEC TK-25 References: <199806151505.KAA28464@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806152238.AA01883@world.std.com> >I am definitiely interested in this. I can use it in an RT-11 >system I have. Let me know what you would like to do with it. If another one can be found, I'd be interested in it for one of my RT-11 systems... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From bjorn at ktb.net Mon Jun 15 17:44:08 1998 From: bjorn at ktb.net (Bjorn T. Eng) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Fixing "old" (but not quite classic) IDE and MFM drives? Message-ID: Hi, I've got a question about "borderline" classics. I've got a few old PCs from right around 1990, maybe a bit earlier and I've got several small IDE and MFM drives that I've scavenged from various places. Several of these drives seem to almost work (they make the usual sounds at power up and can be detected by the bios of a newer PC) but they won't format/fdisk for me. Anyone have any tips of things to try as far as simple troubleshooting? Or are they doomed for the dumpster? Thanks, Bjorn From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 15 17:50:29 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Collectable Old Microsoft Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > And collectable software: [appendage waving] I just want to verify that I am the only one in the world with a Tandy CD-ROM thing (damn, I've forgotten the name) running Modular Windows and a Modular Windows SDK. [appendage relaxed] -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 15 18:38:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980615182255.00687584@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jun 15, 98 06:23:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1467 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980616/025bd024/attachment.ksh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jun 15 20:10:55 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <01IY9WBNRKTIAXB95O@cc.usu.edu> > Speaking of decades, after the year 2000 bug totally obliterates all known > forms of biological life on the planet, What will we call the first decade? > I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the heck > are we supposed to pronounce it? The noughties, obviously. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jun 15 17:44:08 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <005901bd9879$76890d40$096fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980615174408.5cff28b4@intellistar.net> At 07:16 PM 6/15/98 +0300, you wrote: >>First off your dates are grossly in error. MS in the persona of Gates >>was involved in putting basic on the altair via MITS. When CP/M was >>gaining ground as the dominent 8080/z80 OS microsoft was the dominent >>language supplier. The majik system was a z80 running cp/m and MSbasic >>compiler, MAC and L80, and maybe Multiplan. > > >Yep. I know that. But MS dominance didn't exactly happen overnight. They >didn't have much of a hold in anything until the IBM PC took off... > >>Apple: Apple softcard combind package of CP/M and MS languges and a z80. >>TRS80: Disk basic. >>PDP-11: Didn't MS do a unix varient? >>UNix... they did have a hand in a PC unix and apps for it. Yes, XENIX. They also made it (XENIX) for the Tandy 6000 and for some Zenith computers (248?). Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Jun 15 18:25:25 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: BASIC 80 Re: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <9806151508.AA13114@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <000b01bd986b$b1bfc6a0$096fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980615182525.56af021c@intellistar.net> At 08:08 AM 6/15/98 -0800, you wrote: > >BASIC implementation for dozens of personal computers in the late 70's >and very early 80's, most importantly. > I have a brown 3 ring binder that has MicroSoft printed diagonally across it in large white letters. The binder is labeled "BASIC-80". Inside it has an 8 inch floppy disk that's marked "Hewlett-Packard single sided flexible disc". Does anyone know what ssytem it's for? Joe From manney at lrbcg.com Mon Jun 15 19:28:38 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: "Industrial" XT, Compaq luggables, Misc Message-ID: <01bd98bd$b540b6c0$3728a2ce@laptop> I just acquired an XT with a grey case bearing the logo "Industrial Computer". Seems normal inside. Anyone ever heard of one? I also got 2 Compaq XT luggables. Some 286 RAMPAGE cards Tons of XT and AT parts e-mail me privately if you're looking for something. manney@lrbcg.com From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jun 15 19:36:33 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980615203604.006b1130@netpath.net> Even better: The Naughty Noughties ;) At 06:10 PM 6/15/98 -0700, Roger Ivie wrote: >> Speaking of decades, after the year 2000 bug totally obliterates all known >> forms of biological life on the planet, What will we call the first decade? >> I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the heck >> are we supposed to pronounce it? > >The noughties, obviously. > >Roger Ivie >ivie@cc.usu.edu > - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 15 19:54:39 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <199806151551.AA26119@world.std.com> Message-ID: >Apple: Apple softcard combind package of CP/M and MS languges and a z80. >TRS80: Disk basic. >PDP-11: Didn't MS do a unix varient? XENIX >UNix... they did have a hand in a PC unix and apps for it. again XENIX, while not technically MS, a few years ago (3 or 4) there ports of MS Word and Excel for Suns and maybe HP's. I gather they are also currently porting some kind of network conferencing software to Linux?!?!?! Commodore: basically all versions of BASIC running on Commodore machines Mac: MS Office, Works, FOXPRO and a few others Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 15 19:59:02 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Collectable Old Microsoft Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Here's some old Microsoft hardware that's worth collecting:>And >collectable software: > >- Bob (hey, if you own a Lisa or a PC jr. you need their software >equivalent!) My Lisa is seriously insulted! A Lisa is far superior to Bob. For all that goes it's almost superior to Win 3.11! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 15 20:06:01 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: PS to Kilobaud articles. References: <199806151833.OAA11335@camel14.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3585C4F9.3DB6CE3A@cnct.com> Jon Healey wrote: > > Oh yea Ward, > > One other thing. > > I just re-read your message and remember the comment > about Laconia. > > If you're coming to NH you can pick these up. > > That's where we're located, in Manchester. I'll have to look up the addresses, but I've got a couple of sisters in Manchester where things can be dropped off with a reasonable chance of my getting them on my next visit (admittedly, Christmas was my first visit to the state in 20 years -- my fiance [now my wife] wished to meet the gene pool I'd been avoiding for so long, so we went). There's my mother and another sister who'd lose them, also in Manchester. As for work-schedule reasons I've realized that I'll have to give the reunion a miss, this makes things easier. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 15 20:12:48 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E92C@NT486> Message-ID: <3585C690.7E6135F4@cnct.com> Jack Peacock wrote: > > I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the > heck > are we supposed to pronounce it? > > Simple, as anyone who owns a .30-06 deer rifle can tell tell you, it > will be the "double ought" decade. Same as 100 years ago, the first > year will be "ought zero". BTW, .30-06 is a US rifle caliber, .308 > inches (7.62mm), designed in 1906, or "thirty ought six". 20 years from > now, we'll be talking about that old 500Mhz P II made back in "Ought > One". From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 15 20:14:58 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) References: <3.0.32.19980615203604.006b1130@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3585C712.58F551F1@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > Even better: The Naughty Noughties ;) > > At 06:10 PM 6/15/98 -0700, Roger Ivie wrote: > >> Speaking of decades, after the year 2000 bug totally obliterates all known > >> forms of biological life on the planet, What will we call the first decade? > >> I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the heck > >> are we supposed to pronounce it? > > > >The noughties, obviously. Well, the 1900-1909 period is called "the Mauve Decade" in literature. Let's pick a new color. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 15 13:39:15 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <000f01bd98c5$56560860$6a6fbcc1@hotze> >Thanks for the tip, Tim. I'll dump all of my intel stock now. :-) Seriously, that doesn't mean going away from Intel. x86 is supported. Besides, Linux'll take over x86's hardware.... ;-) >> 2) It's lighting fast, and covers all kinds of processors. > >The H/PC was a bit of a flop. For some reason, not many people wanted to >buy a machine that looked like Windows95, but ran on slower hardware with >no application compatibility. Well, believe it or not, it took Microsoft for "open-season" to start on handhelds. >However, I like the new Pilot rip-off, the Palm-sized PC, better. And if >you've never seen their Auto PC for cars, brace yourself for some drooling >(guaranteed to flop at the current $2K price though). They're also making >inroads into embedded systems with CE. Great. Now, stoplights and car batteries will freeze on me. >> 1) With a Velo, is there any way to save files after it's turned off without >> purchasing a hard card? > >You've got internal battery-backed RAM for that. OK. >> 2) With a MIPS-based handheld, could I get stuff moving between this and my >> N64? > >Sure, just as easily as you can move stuff between the 6502 based Nintendo >and an AIM-65 (i.e., no way dOOd -- even if the CPU is the same, nothing >else is). However, I seem to recall that Microsoft recently signed-up a >game machine manufacturer for CE, and it was either Nintendo or Sega. That's what I thought. But I heard a friend talk about it... As for the Sega, Windows CE's OK for what I want it for: Simple eMail. No graphics, no attachments. I don't want Windows CE freezing up my game machine. Especially not when UNIX based competitiors are availabe. I said that I liked Windows CE. I didn't say that it was the best at anything. Just shows promise. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Mon Jun 15 17:51:05 1998 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Unusual find In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:05:08 CDT." <000e01bd9730$7a1283a0$cf010bce@fauradon> Message-ID: <199806152251.RAA28954@mathcs.rhodes.edu.> In message <000e01bd9730$7a1283a0$cf010bce@fauradon>, fauradon@pclink.com write s: >>At 07:19 PM 6/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>Hi, >>>I just found a book Titled Odyssey Pepsi to Apple by John Sculley. It is >the >>>advance copy from uncorrected manuscript. >>>How often do anyone of you run into that kind of print? >> >> I rarely see this kind of thing, but I do have a book titled "Marching >>Thru Georgia" that was published in the 1800s that has *three* hard covers >>on it and all three are a different style, color and material! Inside the >>... >I gues these are the equivalent of prototypes in the publishing industry. Indeed. When I was preparing to teach a computer architecture course a few years ago, I got an advance copy of Patterson & Hennessy's Computer Organization & Design: The Hardware/Software Interface. It was labeled a beta version. Inside the front cover was an order form for the real version when it came out. Of course, it's in second edition now. Brian L. Stuart From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jun 15 20:16:46 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: BASIC 80 Re: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: Joe's message of Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:25:25 References: <000b01bd986b$b1bfc6a0$096fbcc1@hotze> <3.0.1.16.19980615182525.56af021c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199806160116.SAA01947@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Joe wrote: > I have a brown 3 ring binder that has MicroSoft printed diagonally > across it in large white letters. The binder is labeled "BASIC-80". Inside > it has an 8 inch floppy disk that's marked "Hewlett-Packard single sided > flexible disc". Does anyone know what ssytem it's for? Well, um, no. If you made me guess which HP system, I'd say HP125, which was a CP/M machine built into a 262X terminal body. But I'd be a little bit surprised that it's not dressed up as an HP product. HP was doing that with Microsoft products in the mid-1980s, e.g. the Microsoft Pascal compiler for the HP150. -Frank McConnell From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 15 20:34:58 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:34 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... References: <199806151604.LAA28861@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3585CBC2.76C5F0C0@cnct.com> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > > Methinks they also did a port of MS-Word for the AT&T Unix-PC 7300 (A The Unix PC port of MS-Word was from the DOS version, not the Windows version still in the future. MultiPlan was also available for the Unix PC. > > Apple: Apple softcard combind package of CP/M and MS languges and a z80. > > TRS80: Disk basic. And ROM BASIC before that. > > PDP-11: Didn't MS do a unix varient? They did most Xenix development on (IIRC) Vaxen. > > UNix... they did have a hand in a PC unix and apps for it. MS licensed the Unix code from Bell Labs and started the project. They could not make it a commercial product. They sublet the license to Altos, Tandy and SCO (in order of products shipped, in reverse order of long-term corporate success with the product). > > > > Allison -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 15 20:36:37 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... References: <3.0.1.16.19980615174408.5cff28b4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3585CC25.B43FC4B8@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > > At 07:16 PM 6/15/98 +0300, you wrote: > >>First off your dates are grossly in error. MS in the persona of Gates > >>was involved in putting basic on the altair via MITS. When CP/M was > >>gaining ground as the dominent 8080/z80 OS microsoft was the dominent > >>language supplier. The majik system was a z80 running cp/m and MSbasic > >>compiler, MAC and L80, and maybe Multiplan. > > > > > >Yep. I know that. But MS dominance didn't exactly happen overnight. They > >didn't have much of a hold in anything until the IBM PC took off... > > > >>Apple: Apple softcard combind package of CP/M and MS languges and a z80. > >>TRS80: Disk basic. > >>PDP-11: Didn't MS do a unix varient? > >>UNix... they did have a hand in a PC unix and apps for it. > > Yes, XENIX. They also made it (XENIX) for the Tandy 6000 and for some > Zenith computers (248?). No, Tandy made Xenix for the Tandy 6000, SCO made Xenix for the Zenith and other Intel computers. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jun 15 20:51:44 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Unusual find Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980615183751.5e8fd39c@ricochet.net> At 10:04 AM 6/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >To keep this on-topic, computer book publishers today will >circulate a dozen or so preliminary copies of a book to reviewers >at magazines for promotional purposes as well as to industry I used to work for a small publisher (long enough ago so as to be way on topic, and we'll leave it at that) where one of my jobs was to make multiple photocopies of a master copy, collate, assemble, and clib them together. They were review copies, and they were done on a small office copier. So, if you come across an older computer book like that, it's not necessarily a pirated copy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 15 16:56:55 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Mini-Monitors? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980614093438.4a27bf54@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199806160153.VAA08859@mail.cgocable.net> To restate, Bit off OT; I do have ibm enclosed in PS/2 style 9" tube Mono paperwhite VGA monitor that works and has no burnt on it for anyone who wants it for cheap. The PSU inside is transformer based not switcher type. Totally OT; I have a plea for help to locate parts for the Designote notebook; more importantly HD caddy. Secondary is display panel. I contacted by email to Everex and they did not reply or offered to sell me a HD caddy or info on what display panel to use with it. Details: FCC is EUNDESIGNOTE2, Made by FIC and aka as Compuadd ns notebook and Everex Stepnote 486DX4 series. It takes either color DSTN or TFT panel but I NEED the part # off the panel so could locate the compatiable one. The bad display panel is: DSTN color Toshiba 03 TLX-8102S-C3X on another label sticker; LRS8102S-R2CE CE-02430** Thank you very much! Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon Jun 15 21:06:54 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: BASIC 80 Re: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <199806160116.SAA01947@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Sounds like my Xerox 820 Basic Manual. ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On 15 Jun 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > Joe wrote: > > I have a brown 3 ring binder that has MicroSoft printed diagonally > > across it in large white letters. The binder is labeled "BASIC-80". Inside > > it has an 8 inch floppy disk that's marked "Hewlett-Packard single sided > > flexible disc". Does anyone know what ssytem it's for? > > Well, um, no. If you made me guess which HP system, I'd say HP125, > which was a CP/M machine built into a 262X terminal body. > > But I'd be a little bit surprised that it's not dressed up as an HP > product. HP was doing that with Microsoft products in the mid-1980s, > e.g. the Microsoft Pascal compiler for the HP150. > > -Frank McConnell > From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 15 21:33:47 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Collectable Old Microsoft Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > And collectable software: > > - Flight Simulator v1.0 Wasn't that a SubLogic product? > - Windows 1.03 What about version 1.0? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From william at ans.net Mon Jun 15 21:35:26 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <199806152156.VAA27471@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: > "Sure ", you say, "just rent a truck or something to go fetch that S/370 > system!" Well, I likely would if it was within say, 100-200 miles or so and > virtually free for the taking. But all joking aside, that doesn't happen > (besides, if W. Donzelli even sniffs a nearby-to-me > 370's availability he'd probably be there in ten minutes or less ) Yes. I would indeed travel quite some distance to pick up a S/370. I have driven 1800 mile roundtrips (that's 900 each way) over a weekend to pick up some non-computer goodies. In fact my first roadtrip, about four years ago, involved me driving from Chicago to Rochester, NY (kind of your neck of the woods) to pick up a 650 pound radio transmitter, all done in two days. So, my point (other than to boast!) is that even if something seems too out of the way to get (especially the big stuff), some nuts on this list would probably go to pick it up. OK, how about a test... Say a real goodie shows up, like a perfect DEC Straight-8 or an unbuilt Altair kit. Assume the price is good, like $250 for either. Assume that you have the time and a working car, plus a loved one that will not scream too much. Assume that the current owner can not ship the thing. How many miles would you go? William Donzelli william@ans.net From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 15 21:11:53 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Collectable Old Microsoft Stuff Message-ID: <005e01bd98cf$b3891680$6a6fbcc1@hotze> >- Beethoven v1.0 (the first mass market multimedia CD-ROM) When was this made? How many were made? >- Bob (hey, if you own a Lisa or a PC jr. you need their software >equivalent!) Didn't MS repackage that as something else, like a kids program rather recently? >- Flight Simulator v1.0 >- Windows 1.03 What about Windows 2.11? I LOVE Windows 2.11. Now... if it'd only caught on... >Kai Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Jun 15 21:36:38 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <005f01bd98cf$b484dba0$6a6fbcc1@hotze> >again XENIX, while not technically MS, a few years ago (3 or 4) there ports >of MS Word and Excel for Suns and maybe HP's. I gather they are also >currently porting some kind of network conferencing software to Linux?!?!?! Yep. That'd be Microsoft NetMeeting. Pretty cool product. Supports video, audio, message boards. They've also got an Internet Explorer port to Sun Solaris and HP-UX. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Jun 15 21:51:39 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Collectable Old Microsoft Stuff Message-ID: <003001bd98d1$b0edc040$d0020bce@fauradon> >> - Flight Simulator v1.0 > >Wasn't that a SubLogic product? It certainly was, I have several copies for the Apple II. The funny thing is that I believe that the MS version still had the same packaging. > >> - Windows 1.03 > >What about version 1.0? > Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From fauradon at pclink.com Mon Jun 15 21:52:46 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Off-topica Message-ID: <003501bd98d1$d8479a80$d0020bce@fauradon> >Well, older southern men in the US used to say, for example, "19 ot 6" >for 1906. So I guess we could revive that in 2006 and say "20 ot 6". But >this has nothing to do with the original question. > Wouldn't that be 2ot ot 6? Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From desieh at southcom.com.au Mon Jun 15 21:46:51 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <008201bd98d1$06b11fa0$ef173ccb@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 1:52 Subject: Re: Old Microsoft stuff... > > >First off your dates are grossly in error. MS in the persona of Gates >was involved in putting basic on the altair via MITS. When CP/M was >gaining ground as the dominent 8080/z80 OS microsoft was the dominent >language supplier. The majik system was a z80 running cp/m and MSbasic >compiler, MAC and L80, and maybe Multiplan. > > >Apple: Apple softcard combind package of CP/M and MS languges and a z80. >TRS80: Disk basic. >PDP-11: Didn't MS do a unix varient? >UNix... they did have a hand in a PC unix and apps for it. > >Allison > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm dont forget about zenix, and msk............ for the people who dont know msk was MicroSofts attempt at setting computer standards in countries like Japan back in the early 1980's, they also reached Australia but I dont know about the States.. From dastar at wco.com Mon Jun 15 21:50:27 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > Say a real goodie shows up, like a perfect DEC Straight-8 or an unbuilt > Altair kit. Assume the price is good, like $250 for either. Assume that > you have the time and a working car, plus a loved one that will not scream > too much. Assume that the current owner can not ship the thing. How many > miles would you go? Assuming I was the only one who knew about it and who was going to know about it? For an unbuilt Altair or a DEC straight-8? Well, first I'd find out if I knew anyone in the seller's area who I could have go pick it up, and if not, then I would check if I knew anyone who was going to be in that area. If not, then I'd examine the prospects of someone I know visiting that area in the next n months. If that didn't look good, and I absolutely could not bribe the seller with any amount of money under $100 on top of the sale price to ship the thing, then I'd drive about 400 miles or so. I just got an ISIS development system this way. I'm in the Bay Area (California), the ISIS is in Las Vegas. Its a 10 hour drive, and I hate Vegas, so there's no way in hell I'm going to drive it. Shipping would cost a bundle. The price is $75. I know that my older brother, who lives in southern Cal, goes desert racing in the Vegas area at least once a year, so I called him and found out his wife was going to be visiting family in Las Vegas this last weekend. Also, I found out my little brother, who lives in Sacramento and thus passes me by on the way to SoCal, is going to be driving down to visit my older brother next weekend. So my sister-in-law hauled the ISIS from Vegas to SoCal, my little brother will be hauling it from SoCal to me. As Hannibal of the A-Team used to say, "I love it when a plan comes together." Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From homeline at ezl.com Mon Jun 15 22:20:47 1998 From: homeline at ezl.com (Cliff Boyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <199806160320.WAA28099@ns.ezl.com> >I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the >heck >are we supposed to pronounce it? > >Simple, as anyone who owns a .30-06 deer rifle can tell tell you, it >will be the "double ought" decade. Same as 100 years ago, the first >year will be "ought zero". BTW, .30-06 is a US rifle caliber, .308 >inches (7.62mm), designed in 1906, or "thirty ought six". 20 years from >now, we'll be talking about that old 500Mhz P II made back in "Ought >One". > Jack Peacock > > Hi guys & gals! Uhh, lets not confuse .308in bullet size with bullet caliber. The .308 Winchester cartridge was introduced in 1952 and adpoted in 1954 by the U.S. military. It was designed with a reduced overall weight(a little shorter). The idea was that a G.I. could carry more ammo into combat! The correct military designation for this cartridge was 7.62x51mm NATO. BTW, I believe it's "aught" with an A! Sorry, computers are not my only hobby. Cliff Boyer From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Jun 15 22:19:27 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E92C@NT486> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Jack Peacock wrote: > now, we'll be talking about that old 500Mhz P II made back in "Ought > One". Pretty close to what I was thinking, but I think you missed the ',dagnabbit!' part, though. > Jack Peacock ttyl srw From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 15 22:35:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items Message-ID: <199806160335.AA17070@world.std.com> <> Say a real goodie shows up, like a perfect DEC Straight-8 or an unbuil <> Altair kit. Assume the price is good, Assuming the price was affordable I'd drive a good distance. So far I've gone as far as 180miles. For a working PDP-8(any) I'd cross a few states if I could swing it. For an altair... I have one, thanks. I've assembled three of them back when. Have the shirt, been there. I'd look for an IMSAI it was a better machine. Allison PS: periodic request... IMSAI IMP-48 docs, I'm looking for a copy. From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Jun 15 23:41:15 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: ATT 6310 Message-ID: <199806160441.VAA19463@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Hello all, I have found a AT&T 6310 PC box. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Is it 10 years old, yet? It is heavy enough I'd thought it had a large linear supply in it, but only a switcher ps! It was made in Italy by Olivetti, as mentioned on the 6300 thread. Opening the top reveals a AT type passive motherboard- the CPU, etc. is apparently on another one in another compartment below it, which I haven't gotten to yet. All the cards are 8 bits, except a Mouse Systems serial card which extends about 1/3 way into the "16 bit extension". There is another 2 port serial card and also a MIcrosoft Inport card with a mini-DIN connector. There is also a serial and printer port on the "hidden" CPU card, both DB-25, and a DB-9 connector for the keyboard. There is a volume control on the front, but haven't found the speaker, either. -Dave From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jun 16 00:26:08 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Epson PX-16 In-Reply-To: <199806160441.VAA19463@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Somebody in europe is selling a PX-16, and I think I want it, but I'm not sure what it is. I believe it was the successor to the PX-8, but I don't know if it was a "true" portable. E.g., does it have an built-in display? I think it was PC-compatible, but my Italian is dismal, so I could use some help from English-speakers familiar with it. -- Doug From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Jun 16 01:21:00 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: RA82: Does it need...? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980615232100.00e5a100@mail.jps.net> Does the DEC RA82 drive need to see an active SDI controller in order to spin up without a FAULT light? I know that RL02's needed power on the controller before their FAULT indicators would clear. I ask because I've spun up my RA81. It sounds OK -- positions the heads, etc. -- but it displays FAULT and diagnostic LEDs 3 & 4 (I think -- it might be 2 & 3) once it reaches operating speed. That, of course, is with the I/O cables flying in the breeze. Inquiring minds, especially those who are going to make a MicroVAXen available in the near future, wish to know! ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cc14529 at navix.net Tue Jun 16 01:42:57 1998 From: cc14529 at navix.net (cc14529@navix.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: TRS 80 Model 4 Wanted (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hum... I think I'm in NE (Nebraska), and actually quite near Beatrice, so maybe I should give him a hollar 'eh? Thanks for the lead! CORD COSLOR On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Scott Walde wrote: > Can anyone in 'NE' (Sorry, I can't always remember all of your states > abbreviations... at least we only have 12. Is that Nebraska?) help this > guy out? Please reply directly to him, not me or the list. > > ttyl > srw > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:38:53 -0700 > From: COMPASS > To: scott@saskatoon.com > Subject: TRS 80 Model 4 Wanted > > We are looking for a TRS 80 Model 4 to operate an engraving machine (the > old one died). > > Any suggestions? > > Pete Godfrey > Compass Materials Handling Systems > A Division of Schuler Industries, Inc. > PO Box 714 > Beatrice, NE 68310 > > Phone: 402-223-5678 > Fax: 402-228-4193 > Email: compass@navix.net > > From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Tue Jun 16 05:30:37 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: ATT 6310 In-Reply-To: <199806160441.VAA19463@sweden.it.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Jun 15, 98 09:41:15 pm Message-ID: <199806161030.GAA28162@shell.monmouth.com> > > Hello all, > I have found a AT&T 6310 PC box. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Is it > 10 years old, yet? It is heavy enough I'd thought it had a large >linear supply in it, but only a switcher ps! It was made in Italy by > Olivetti, as mentioned on the 6300 thread. Thats a 10MHZ 80286 box which was one of the last Olivetti AT&T PC's. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Jun 16 05:33:31 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Fixing "old" (but not quite classic) IDE and MFM drives? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980616063331.00690558@mail.wincom.net> At 03:44 PM 6/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, > > I've got a question about "borderline" classics. I've got a few old PCs >from right around 1990, maybe a bit earlier and I've got several small IDE >and MFM drives that I've scavenged from various places. > > Several of these drives seem to almost work (they make the usual sounds >at power up and can be detected by the bios of a newer PC) but they won't >format/fdisk for me. > > Anyone have any tips of things to try as far as simple troubleshooting? >Or are they doomed for the dumpster? > >Thanks, > > Bjorn I have had quite good results with Ontrack Disk Manager, about four times out of five it will get an old drive going and lock out the bad sectors. The recovered drives have been going in XTs etc. At ten or twenty megs capacity there is no point in trying to install them in modern computers. Regards Charlie Fox > > > > From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Tue Jun 16 05:43:46 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Fixing "old" (but not quite classic) IDE and MFM drives? Message-ID: >> I've got a question about "borderline" classics. I've got a few old PCs >>from right around 1990, maybe a bit earlier and I've got several small IDE >>and MFM drives that I've scavenged from various places. >> >> Several of these drives seem to almost work (they make the usual sounds >>at power up and can be detected by the bios of a newer PC) but they won't >>format/fdisk for me. The way I understand it, IDE drives should automatically map out bad blocks, (is this true for all IDE drives?) whereas MFM disks won't. Therefore I'd assume that once an IDE drive starts presenting bad blocks to the user its days are pretty numbered... I was once told that a small percentage of an IDE disk is unused, purely for the sake of providing a "reserve" area so that the disk could cope with some bad blocks whilst still giving the user the impression that full capacity was available - is this true, or just one of those stories that I happened to turn up over the years?? cheers J. > From emu at ecubics.com Tue Jun 16 08:37:57 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: RA82: Does it need...? Message-ID: <19980616132458.AAA12840@emusp6> Hi Bruce, ---------- > From: Bruce Lane > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RA82: Does it need...? > Date: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 12:21 AM > > Does the DEC RA82 drive need to see an active SDI controller in order to > spin up without a FAULT light? I know that RL02's needed power on the > controller before their FAULT indicators would clear. as far i know, YES. My ra90 spins up without sdi controller, but after few seconds you get an error with soemthing like "sync errors" whitch means there is no communication. then you never get the ready light. hope it helps, emanuel From cfandt at servtech.com Tue Jun 16 08:32:11 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: FS: (cheep!) HP Controller 362 [I'm too late??] In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980614162843.006af958@netpath.net> Message-ID: <199806161332.NAA15055@cyber2.servtech.com> At 16:29 14-06-98 -0400, you wrote: >I've got this Hewlett Packard Controller 362 and have no need for it. >Anyone want it for the price of $5+shipping? Hi John, Just catching up on my mail.... Anybody grab this yet? I figure I'm too late, but if not, tag it for me. Please let me know by re-using that altered subject line above (easier for me to visually filter amongst 70-100 daily messages!). Thanks much, best regards, Chris -- -- ======================================================= Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian 31 Houston Avenue, WE Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home Jamestown, New York +716-661-1832 -Office 14701-2627 USA Fax: +716-661-1888 -Office fax email: cfandt@servtech.com Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 16 09:26:35 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <3585CC25.B43FC4B8@cnct.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980615174408.5cff28b4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980616092635.4857052e@intellistar.net> At 09:36 PM 6/15/98 -0400, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> >> At 07:16 PM 6/15/98 +0300, you wrote: >> >>First off your dates are grossly in error. MS in the persona of Gates >> >>was involved in putting basic on the altair via MITS. When CP/M was >> >>gaining ground as the dominent 8080/z80 OS microsoft was the dominent >> >>language supplier. The majik system was a z80 running cp/m and MSbasic >> >>compiler, MAC and L80, and maybe Multiplan. >> > >> > >> >Yep. I know that. But MS dominance didn't exactly happen overnight. They >> >didn't have much of a hold in anything until the IBM PC took off... >> > >> >>Apple: Apple softcard combind package of CP/M and MS languges and a z80. >> >>TRS80: Disk basic. >> >>PDP-11: Didn't MS do a unix varient? >> >>UNix... they did have a hand in a PC unix and apps for it. >> >> Yes, XENIX. They also made it (XENIX) for the Tandy 6000 and for some >> Zenith computers (248?). > >No, Tandy made Xenix for the Tandy 6000, SCO made Xenix for the Zenith >and other Intel computers. I now have a ****huge**** pile of Tandy 6000 manauls. They all say copywrite MS. I HAD a Zenith computer with XENIX, I'm pretty sure the on screen copyright notice also said MS but I may be wrong. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 16 09:38:16 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Off-topica In-Reply-To: <003501bd98d1$d8479a80$d0020bce@fauradon> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980616093816.48572aac@intellistar.net> At 09:52 PM 6/15/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >>Well, older southern men in the US used to say, for example, "19 ot 6" >>for 1906. So I guess we could revive that in 2006 and say "20 ot 6". But >>this has nothing to do with the original question. >> >Wouldn't that be 2ot ot 6? >Francois No, it would be 2 double-ot 6. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 16 09:58:06 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Very OT! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <199806160320.WAA28099@ns.ezl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980616095806.58e7cd82@intellistar.net> At 10:20 PM 6/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the >>heck >>are we supposed to pronounce it? >> >>Simple, as anyone who owns a .30-06 deer rifle can tell tell you, it >>will be the "double ought" decade. Same as 100 years ago, the first >>year will be "ought zero". BTW, .30-06 is a US rifle caliber, .308 >>inches (7.62mm), designed in 1906, or "thirty ought six". 20 years from >>now, we'll be talking about that old 500Mhz P II made back in "Ought >>One". >> Jack Peacock >> >> >Hi guys & gals! > >Uhh, lets not confuse .308in bullet size with bullet caliber. > >The .308 Winchester cartridge was introduced in 1952 and adpoted in 1954 by >the U.S. military. It was designed with a reduced overall weight(a little >shorter). >The idea was that a G.I. could carry more ammo into combat! The correct >military designation for this cartridge was 7.62x51mm NATO. > >BTW, I believe it's "aught" with an A! > >Sorry, computers are not my only hobby. > >Cliff Boyer Well if you want to be exact, the .308 and 7.62mm rounds are two different things! .308 is the commercial designation and 7.62mm is the military designation and the two rounds are slightly different. Many people interchange them and think that they're both the same but many rifle manufacturers warn you against using the wrong type in their product. The difference in the two is in the curviture of the bullet where it seats against the lands in the barrel. If you use the wrong type of ammo the incorrect bullet seating can cause excessive barrel pressure and damage or burst the rifle barrel or action. Furthermore, the nominal bullet size for both the .308, 7.62mm and the .30-06 are all .308 inches diameter. BUT the rifle barrel bore diameter is .300 inches, that's why the rifles that these rounds are used in are considered to be .30 caliber and why the .30-06 is ".30". The grooves in the rifle barrel have a slighly larger diameter (.306") than the bore but the groove diameter is still smaller than .308". The bullet has to be squeezed down in size slightly to pass through the barrel. This is called "upsetting". This provides a gas tight seal and a higher bullet velocity and less gas cutting of the barrel material. And no, there's no "A" in ought. I have lots of hobbys too. Too many! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 16 10:03:58 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: ATT 6310 In-Reply-To: <199806160441.VAA19463@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980616100358.4857d38c@intellistar.net> At 09:41 PM 6/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hello all, >I have found a AT&T 6310 PC box. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Is it >10 years I'm not sure but I think it's the one that they called the 6300 Plus. If so it's a 286 machine and is supposed to run UNIX. I found one in a trift store and tried it out. It went through the POST and listed the CPU type but the OS was screwed up and it wouldn't boot. It uses the same keyboard and SPECIAL monitor as the regular 6300s. I think they're still some KBs and monochome monitors there if you need one. Joe From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Tue Jun 16 11:13:10 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: ATT 6310 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980616100358.4857d38c@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 16, 98 10:03:58 am Message-ID: <199806161613.MAA00373@shell.monmouth.com> > > At 09:41 PM 6/15/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Hello all, > >I have found a AT&T 6310 PC box. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Is it > >10 years > > I'm not sure but I think it's the one that they called the 6300 Plus. If > so it's a 286 machine and is supposed to run UNIX. I found one in a trift > store and tried it out. It went through the POST and listed the CPU type > but the OS was screwed up and it wouldn't boot. It uses the same keyboard > and SPECIAL monitor as the regular 6300s. I think they're still some KBs > and monochome monitors there if you need one. > > Joe Nope. This is not the 6300 Plus... The plus had non-AT compatible slots. I believe the 6310 was the last 286 AT compatible from Olivetti. Although the 6312 may have been the last 286 machine. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jun 16 11:16:40 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980616095806.58e7cd82@intellistar.net> References: <199806160320.WAA28099@ns.ezl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980616121640.00826b40@netpath.net> Note to self: Do not, I repeat DO NOT disgruntle members of the classiccmp mailing list! They are dangerous gun toting mercenaries! :) At 09:58 AM 6/16/98, you wrote: > Well if you want to be exact, the .308 and 7.62mm rounds are two >different things! .308 is the commercial designation and 7.62mm is the >military designation and the two rounds are slightly different. Many ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 16 11:36:14 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980616121640.00826b40@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > Note to self: Do not, I repeat DO NOT disgruntle members of the classiccmp > mailing list! They are dangerous gun toting mercenaries! :) Naw... guns are not efficient enough for a seriously disgruntled computer geek. They have limited range, lose impact value at distance, are noisy, subject to outside influence, (wind, etc.) and lots of other nasty variables... Now, you take one computer connected to the net... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bjorn at ktb.net Tue Jun 16 11:52:01 1998 From: bjorn at ktb.net (Bjorn T. Eng) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Fixing "old" (but not quite classic) IDE and MFM drives? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980616063331.00690558@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Charles E. Fox wrote: (I've shortened your quote of my email...) > > Several of these drives seem to almost work (they make the usual sounds > >at power up and can be detected by the bios of a newer PC) but they won't > >format/fdisk for me. > > > > I have had quite good results with Ontrack Disk Manager, about four times > out of five it will get an old drive going and lock out the bad sectors. > The recovered drives have been going in XTs etc. At ten or twenty megs > capacity there is no point in trying to install them in modern computers. > Thanks for the tip. I've tried Spinrite and some program I got with a WD drive. I believe I got Ontrack with a drive I bought recently. I'll try it. I'm afraid it may be beyond that though. The drives are not getting as far as reporting bad sectors ... they just hang when I try to format them. Regards, Bjorn Eng From peacock at simconv.com Tue Jun 16 12:12:02 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E92F@NT486> -----Original Message----- > Well if you want to be exact, the .308 and 7.62mm rounds are two >different things! .308 is the commercial designation and 7.62mm is the >military designation and the two rounds are slightly different. Many There are numerous .30 caliber rifles and pistols. I was referring to the diameter. There is the .30-06 (WW I/II vintage), the .308 (late 50's, early Vietnam vintage, NATO), the 7.62x39 (Russian, Korea to present), the .30-30 (the famous lever action Winchester of the late 1800s), the .300 Savage (first rifle to exceed 2000 fps, also late 1800s), the .30 M1 carbine (WW II vintage), the .300 Winchester Magnum, the 7.62 Nagant, etc. All use the same basic diameter .308 bullet. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 16 12:58:55 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Fixing "old" (but not quite classic) IDE and MFM drives? In-Reply-To: <4635@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806161707.MAA00948@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> While we're on this subject. . . Does anyone out there have a copy of SpeedStor that can access Storage Dimensions old 8-bit scsi host adaptors? (Specifically, the DataCannon 800). I'm trying to test an old scsi MFM controller board, and I need to format the drive, first! Jeff > > > On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > (I've shortened your quote of my email...) > > > > Several of these drives seem to almost work (they make the usual sounds > > >at power up and can be detected by the bios of a newer PC) but they won't > > >format/fdisk for me. > > > > > > > > I have had quite good results with Ontrack Disk Manager, about four times > > out of five it will get an old drive going and lock out the bad sectors. > > The recovered drives have been going in XTs etc. At ten or twenty megs > > capacity there is no point in trying to install them in modern computers. > > > > Thanks for the tip. I've tried Spinrite and some program I got with a WD > drive. I believe I got Ontrack with a drive I bought recently. I'll try > it. I'm afraid it may be beyond that though. The drives are not getting > as far as reporting bad sectors ... they just hang when I try to format > them. > > Regards, > > Bjorn Eng > > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 16 13:43:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <199806161843.AA26093@world.std.com> For the VMS hacks out there... $Set mode/farce=comdey Message-ID: <13364316062.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Spin up RA81 w/o a controller?] I do this as practice, as my power source can't hold the spinning-up RA81 and 2 BA-11s at once... No, that is not supposed to happen. Let me dig out my manual, and I'll see what the light code means... ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jun 16 14:56:30 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Oops.. I parsed RA82 as RA81. Ignore that. Message-ID: <13364318937.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> ------- From Chwolka at nt-gmbh.de Mon Jun 15 23:44:57 1998 From: Chwolka at nt-gmbh.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... References: Message-ID: <3585F849.6E18@nt-gmbh.de> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Absolutely. Applesoft BASIC (in every II+ and later, and installed as > > an option in most II's) was written by Microsoft. Microsoft also sold > > several well-known Apple II games (ADVENTURE is the most well-known). > > Olympic Decathalon (responsible for many a broken left/right arrow key > required for the running competitions). > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 06/11/98] Here the DECATHLON I played with my first TRS-Clone , a EACA genie II The copyright isn't by Micro$ !! COPYRIGHT (C) 1980 BY TIMOTHY W. SMITH ARE YOU READY TO BEGIN THE DECATHLON? THAT PERFORMANCE WOULD BE WORTH 0000 POINTS IN THE DECATHLON. SPEED = 99999 CM/SEC DISTANCE= 99 M Greetings Fritz Chwolka From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 16 15:27:36 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Collectable Old Microsoft Stuff Message-ID: <19980616202736.2828.qmail@hotmail.com> I have what looks like the first MS version, since it has no version number. Won't run on anything, I think the disk is bad. >> - Flight Simulator v1.0 > >Wasn't that a SubLogic product? > >> - Windows 1.03 > >What about version 1.0? > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 06/11/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 16 15:40:06 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <19980616204006.28822.qmail@hotmail.com> Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port? Apple - A/UX IBM - AIX MS - Xenix AT&T - UNIX DEC? DR? > >You mean Xenix? > Ciao, > >Tim D. Hotze > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 16 12:37:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 15, 98 10:35:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 985 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980616/369d70d9/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jun 16 15:53:09 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13364329248.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [How far would you go for goodies?] Soon as I can clear it, I'm heading to New York for some KS-10 parts... ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jun 16 15:56:26 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Apollo again. Message-ID: <13364329847.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> How nice: Both of the video cards I got are toast. One acts completely dead, the other shows a series of red vertical bars about .25" apart, with crap in between. Apparently, these were decommissioned for a reason... ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 16 15:53:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <19980616204006.28822.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 16, 98 01:40:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980616/e42a2da6/attachment.ksh From cgregory at lrbcg.com Tue Jun 16 16:30:20 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Zenith All-In-One ? Message-ID: <008901bd996e$49a8e660$1927a2ce@cliffgre> Anyone ever hear of a Zenith All-in-One ? I can probably get one (damaged) for shipping costs, but I am wondering if it would be even worth that (a couple thousand miles). Thanks, Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jun 16 16:41:26 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port? [...] > DEC - Ultrix ? Don't forget Eunice! OK, maybe it's better that you forget. -- Doug From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jun 16 17:47:55 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <01IYB5LCG76AAYK599@cc.usu.edu> >On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port? >[...] >> DEC - Ultrix ? > >Don't forget Eunice! OK, maybe it's better that you forget. Eunice wasn't a DEC product, though. It was done by the folks who eventually became The Wollongong Group. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 16 16:51:43 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <199806162151.AA24175@world.std.com> Message-ID: What's with all this rhetorical nonsense about going on long treks to acquire PDP-8s? Here's a real -8 for some lucky resident of New Jersey. Respond directly to the sender, and name it after me, OK? << Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:18:55 -0400 From: David Tripet Subject: PDP-8 a friend has a PDP-8 and it was running...he wants to sell it or donate it to a museum...he has all software, manuals...plus spare parts...he wants to clean out his basement...do you know of any group who would be interested in it? thanks.. >> -- Doug From peacock at simconv.com Tue Jun 16 17:31:51 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: PDP-8 available in NJ Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E931@NT486> > What's with all this rhetorical nonsense about going on long treks to acquire PDP-8s? Here's a real -8 for some lucky resident of New Jersey. Long treks? I thought it was only a few hundred miles. Around here (Mojave desert) that won't even get you to the next town. Heck, in the right direction that won't even get you out of the county. There are plenty of surplus PDP-8s and PDP-11's only a hundred miles from here. Practically new, but one catch: Slightly used....only nuked once. As a bit of trivia, PDPs (8s/10s/11s) were the preferred machine at the nuclear test site in Nevada. They were used for (expendable) instrumentation very close to ground zero. Quite a few were converted into plasma. Jack Peacock From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 16 16:48:57 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Getting further and further OT RE: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E92F@NT486> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980616164857.2ec7425c@intellistar.net> At 10:12 AM 6/16/98 -0700, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >> Well if you want to be exact, the .308 and 7.62mm rounds are two >>different things! .308 is the commercial designation and 7.62mm is >the >>military designation and the two rounds are slightly different. Many > >There are numerous .30 caliber rifles and pistols. I was referring to >the diameter. There is the .30-06 (WW I/II vintage), the .308 (late >50's, early Vietnam vintage, NATO), the 7.62x39 (Russian, Korea to >present), the .30-30 (the famous lever action Winchester of the late >1800s), the .300 Savage (first rifle to exceed 2000 fps, also late >1800s), the .30 M1 carbine (WW II vintage), the .300 Winchester Magnum, >the 7.62 Nagant, etc. All use the same basic diameter .308 bullet. > No, they don't. The Nagant (7.62x 64) has a groove diameter of .310" and uses a .311"-.312" size bullet. The 7.62 x 39 is also an odd size but I don't remember the exact measurement, it's probably also .311"-.312". Some of the US bullet companies are now making special bullets for those two. FWIW When Ruger made the Mini-30 they sized the barrel for the (US) standard .308" bullets instead of the normal Russian ones. Joe From peacock at simconv.com Tue Jun 16 17:40:09 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: ok, end of OT, but thanks! Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E932@NT486> No, they don't. The Nagant (7.62x 64) has a groove diameter of .310" and uses a .311"-.312" size bullet. whoa, didn't know about the Nagant, better check the book next time. Friend has an old WW I surplus one, I think he's reloading the wrong size. It uses the .303 Brit instead? From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 16 17:33:16 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:35 2005 Subject: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <19980616223316.9078.qmail@hotmail.com> Sunburnt yellow plastic! > >John Higginbotham wrote: >> >> Even better: The Naughty Noughties ;) >> >> At 06:10 PM 6/15/98 -0700, Roger Ivie wrote: >> >> Speaking of decades, after the year 2000 bug totally obliterates all known >> >> forms of biological life on the planet, What will we call the first decade? >> >> I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the heck >> >> are we supposed to pronounce it? >> > >> >The noughties, obviously. > >Well, the 1900-1909 period is called "the Mauve Decade" in literature. >Let's pick a new color. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 16 17:41:20 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: MS using Linux (OT) Message-ID: <19980616224120.358.qmail@hotmail.com> On www.osnews.com, it turns out that MS put up a Linux server, linus.microsoft.com. THe fun part is that the next day they took it down, probably so that no one would notice it was ever up (guess courtesy of OSNews) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 16 17:57:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Apollo again. In-Reply-To: <13364329847.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 16, 98 01:56:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 893 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980616/89cdd6b8/attachment.ksh From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 16 19:14:02 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <4651@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806162317.SAA02444@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > > > DEC ported ULTRIX which is close to BSD unix to both PDP11 and VAX. > > DR? I don't think so. > > which is which?: > > Venix Venix86 / 286 By VenturCom - IIRC, an (almost) real-time UNIX variant > Zenix Never Heard of this one . . . > Xenix > > What and who for those. > > Allison > > > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jun 16 18:15:16 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Apollo again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13364355120.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Any of those sound like my card?] The color one with all the SMD chips sounds right on. The RAMDAC is the only socketed chip, right? ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 16 18:22:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Apollo again. In-Reply-To: <13364355120.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 16, 98 04:15:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 499 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980617/25c93c8e/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Jun 16 18:29:55 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Apollo again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13364357787.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Card you described...] That's it. I tried swapping the RAMDAC chips, and now I have a different behavior. The screen is all blue. Nothing at all. Swapping them back, now my origional ramdac gives no signs of working. No signal at all. Switch them - all blue screen. Something's seriously wrong with the other card, it toasted the ramdac I put in it... (And YES, I checked orientation before applying power.) ------- From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 16 19:43:15 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <4661@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806162346.SAA02479@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Guys: I am posting this message on the behalf of a third party. PLease contact him directly. For Sale: IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer This is the model with the switches on the front panel (non turnkey). Inside: Several memory boards Original IMS CPU Tarbell tape controller MicroComplex Phase Lock II FDC (by Frank Hogg) Video Adaptor/Keyboard Interface Outside: External Keyboard Dual Cassette drives (they look pretty strange) Dual 5.25 Floppy drives (non IMSAI) There is 'A Ton' of software for this thing, and it's supposed to run CP/M (I've seen the docs, but not the floppies). All of the boards, software, etc. have the original docs. Alot of the software is on cassette. There are also a bunch of spare boards: qty Make Model Whatizit? --- ------------- --------------------- -------------- 11 Micro Complex Phase Lock II FDC 1 North Star MDC-A2 MDC 1 Coex 64k Static RAM 1 Tanner 64k Static Ram 1 MITS 8800 CPU CPU Card 1 Solid State Music S-100 Video Interface 1 Morrow 8k RAM Module 1 WameCo EPM-2 EPROM Board 1 PolyMorphic Syst. A/D + D/A 2 Morrow/Godbout Econo-RAM 4k memory 1 STM 8k(?) RAM Board 1 Celetron Altair Board Extender 1 Vandenburg Data 16k Static Ram The seller would favor selling the whole lot. Asking price: $300 Contact: Denys G. Fredrickson denysgf@juno.com From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jun 16 19:26:37 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <199806170026.AA20417@world.std.com> >> >> Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port? >> Apple - A/UX >> IBM - AIX >> MS - Xenix >> AT&T - UNIX >> DEC? > >DEC - Ultrix ? Ultrix-11 Ultrix-32 (later renamed Ultrix, when the -11 version was retired) There's also a VENIX for the PRO series.. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jun 16 19:39:12 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 available in NJ Message-ID: <199806170039.AA00599@world.std.com> >There are plenty of surplus PDP-8s and PDP-11's only a hundred miles >from here. Practically new, but one catch: Slightly used....only nuked >once. > >As a bit of trivia, PDPs (8s/10s/11s) were the preferred machine at the >nuclear test site in Nevada. They were used for (expendable) >instrumentation very close to ground zero. Quite a few were converted >into plasma. A friend of mine (through DECUS symposia) who work(ed?) at Sandia National labs told me about what they did with them... There would be a pdp-11 down the hole with the device, connected via Ethernet to another pdp-11 with core, topside in a van. When the device was set off, the signals from the now-very-fried-11 would race the fireball up the hole where the data would be stored in core. (The speed of the advancing fireball could be somewhat determined by using TDR on the ethernet cable :-) When the shockwave hit the van, it would go bouncing across the desert until it came to rest. If was able to, it would continue recording information. If not, they came along at a later time and pulled the core plane and installed it in another machine where they would try to read it. From homeline at ezl.com Tue Jun 16 20:10:47 1998 From: homeline at ezl.com (Cliff Boyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: ok, end of OT, but thanks! Message-ID: <199806170110.UAA25762@ns.ezl.com> >No, they don't. The Nagant (7.62x 64) has a groove diameter of .310" and >uses a .311"-.312" size bullet. > >whoa, didn't know about the Nagant, better check the book next time. >Friend has an old WW I surplus one, I think he's reloading the wrong >size. It uses the .303 Brit instead? > > One last comment on this side discussion: It's nice to see that there are still many folks that enjoy and participate in a hobby that involves firearms. And not afraid to let it be known, especially with all of the negative stories in the news lately (like the last decade or so)! Remember, always think saftey first! Enjoy, Cliff Boyer From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 16 20:36:51 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <19980617013652.5923.qmail@hotmail.com> What did WYSE use in their machines? UNIX, no less? > >>> >>> Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port? >>> Apple - A/UX >>> IBM - AIX >>> MS - Xenix >>> AT&T - UNIX >>> DEC? >> >>DEC - Ultrix ? > >Ultrix-11 >Ultrix-32 (later renamed Ultrix, when the -11 version was retired) > >There's also a VENIX for the PRO series.. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | >| Digital Equipment Corporation | | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Jun 16 20:53:30 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (kyrrin@jps.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: FW: FREE MicroVax II and Vaxstation II/RC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35902145.253183027@smtp.wa.jps.net> Heads up, California scroungers! Found this on Usenet. Fellow's got some freebies in the southland, and they look promising! Please contact him directly if you're interested. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:57:52 +0000, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>From: "Eugene Dale Tyler" >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec >>Subject: FREE MicroVax II and Vaxstation II/RC >>Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:57:52 +0000 >>Organization: None at all >>Lines: 19 >>Distribution: World >>Message-ID: >>Reply-To: "Eugene Dale Tyler" >>NNTP-Posting-Host: edtserv.tylerent.com >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Newsreader: PMINews 2.00.0140 For OS/2 >>X-No-Archive: Yes >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news.burgoyne.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!nntp.ni.net!not-for-mail >> >>Hello, >> >>I am scapping a MicroVax-II (TS05/TK50/RA81) and a >>Vaxstation II/RC with a b/w monitor (VR260AA). >> >>They are located in Laguna Niguel, CA. You must arrange >>pickup. >> >>If you are interested, e-mail me at the mangled address: >> >>evx@world,sxv.com >> >>Regards, >> >>Dale >>Change 'x' to 't' and 'v' to 'd' to reconstruct my e-mail address >>This inconvience brought to you by the net-scum of the world. >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Jun 16 20:58:00 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (kyrrin@jps.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: FW: Value of DECStation 5000's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35932263.253468378@smtp.wa.jps.net> Looks like another opportunity to get some decent DEC hardware. Please contact this fellow directly if interested. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:40:53, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>From: gcg1@psu.edu (Gary Gentzel) >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec >>Subject: Value of DECStation 5000's? >>Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:40:53 >>Organization: CAC >>Lines: 15 >>Message-ID: >>NNTP-Posting-Host: ggentzel.oas.psu.edu >>X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B] >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!uunet!in4.uu.net!newsfeed.xcom.net!feeder.qis.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!ggentzel.oas.psu.edu!gcg1 >> >>Our department is considering what to do with two DECStations. Could anyone >>give me a ballpark figure on what these systems may be worth? Here are the >>specs, as best as I can tell: >> >>5000/125: 16MB RAM, 3-1/2" floppy, BA42 Storage Expansion box containing TZK10 >>tape drive and 426 MB RZ25 hard drive. VR297-DA 17" monitor. >> >>5000/240: 32 or 64MB RAM, BA42A storage expansion box containing 426 MB RZ25 >>hard drive and RRD42 CD-ROM. TK50Z tape drive unit. VRT16-HA 17" monitor. >> >>Any help would be appreciated.... >> >>Gary Gentzel >>Penn State University Administrative Systems >>gcg1@psu.edu -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Tue Jun 16 21:03:10 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 16, 98 09:53:22 pm Message-ID: <199806170203.WAA20007@shell.monmouth.com> > > > > > Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port? > > Apple - A/UX > > IBM - AIX > > MS - Xenix > > AT&T - UNIX > > DEC? > > DEC - Ultrix ? V7M11-> Ultrix11 Ultrix32->Ultrix->OSF/1->Digital Unix > ICL - PNX > Acorn - RISCix ? > > Dunno if all those had genuine AT&T code in them, but they certainly felt > like unix. Sure was real AT&T code in A/UX, AIX, Xenix, Ultrix... > > There was also a thing called Uniplus+ which turned up on 68000 machines > in the mid 1980s (I've seen it on Torches and Plesseys). I can't remember > who wrote it, though > Also ran on Perkin-Elmer 73xx machines. Uniplus was from UniSoft who did a lot of 68k flavored v7, SysIII and SysV ports. Uniplus SysIII had some Berkeley enhancements in it. Uniplus SysV also was pulled into Concurrent/Perkin Elmer's MicroXelos. Idris (also sold by Perkin Elmer) was (like Coherent) a third party unix-workalike. > > -tony > > Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Jun 16 21:14:30 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (kyrrin@jps.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: FW: DECStation 5000/200's available In-Reply-To: <6m62lc$d56$1@knot.queensu.ca> References: <6m62lc$d56$1@knot.queensu.ca> Message-ID: <35972636.254447696@smtp.wa.jps.net> They're coming out of the woodwork today. Contact this fellow directly if you're interested. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On 16 Jun 1998 15:23:24 GMT, in comp.unix.ultrix you wrote: >>From: jorgnsn@qucis.queensu.ca (John Jorgensen) >>Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix >>Subject: was someone looking for a DECstation 5000/200? >>Date: 16 Jun 1998 15:23:24 GMT >>Organization: Computing & Information Science, Queen's University >>Lines: 15 >>Message-ID: <6m62lc$d56$1@knot.queensu.ca> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: quidnunc.qucis.queensu.ca >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news.sisna.com!news-kc-17.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!kone!news.ccs.queensu.ca!jorgnsn >> >>I seem to remember a message posted a few days ago by someone who was >>looking for a DECstation 5000/200. We're de-commissioning a student lab >>full of DECstations, but I wasn't sure of the model numbers. Now I've >>confirmed that there are five 5000/200s among the workstations that are being >>retired, but the original article has been expired. >> >>So if there is somebody out there who is looking for DECstation 5000/200s, >>drop me a line. >> >> >> >>-- >> >>John Jorgensen jorgnsn@qucis.queensu.ca (613) 545 6784 >>System Administrator, Dept. of Computing Science, Queen's University -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jun 16 21:34:54 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: back on topic (was: Windows CE: Future classic (OT, in a way...)) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980616170151.65ffb890@ricochet.net> At 09:39 PM 6/15/98 +0300, you wrote: > As for the Sega, Windows CE's OK for what I want it for: Simple eMail. >No graphics, no attachments. I don't want Windows CE freezing up my game If all you want is simple e-mail, no graphics, no attachments, why spend $500+ on a wince machine? Get yerself a 8088/286/386 laptop from ebay and use a shell account. Or, if you need ppp connectivity, use one of the DOS-based ones running around. Btw, everybody, if you're thinking of putting "(OT)" in your subject, DON'T SEND IT TO ClassicCmp! Those of us that care about new tech are on mailing lists/newsgroups related to what we're interested in; the rest don't care and don't want to see it. There are appropriate forums for questions on Linux, Win95, Wince, Pentiums, etc. This ain't them! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Jun 16 21:35:00 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980616175630.65ff5eee@ricochet.net> At 06:37 PM 6/16/98 +0100, you wrote: >> Say a real goodie shows up, like a perfect DEC Straight-8 or an unbuilt >> Altair kit. Assume the price is good, like $250 for either. Assume that >> you have the time and a working car, plus a loved one that will not scream >> too much. Assume that the current owner can not ship the thing. How many >> miles would you go? Well, hereabouts, I go 35 miles each way to and from work, and mine is not an exceptionally long commute. (I know folks who do ~70 miles each way in traffic.) (Heck, my sister does 60-70 miles each way just for an hour or two.) My problem is not so much distance as it is time. I'd gladly do a week-end trip to, say, Los Angeles (~500 miles), for most anything, if I didn't have to spend the time a) working, b) with my dad, c) with my girlfriend or d) sleeping (ha!). Mostly, though, I send my aforementioned sister to get things for me (she drove from SF to San Diego, back to Disneyland, and back to SF in about 30 hours -- with about 8 hours at Disneyland and 8 or so in San Diego. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From dastar at wco.com Tue Jun 16 21:51:29 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: ok, end of OT, but thanks! In-Reply-To: <199806170110.UAA25762@ns.ezl.com> Message-ID: I enjoy guns as much as the next guy (really, I do, came from a hunting family and believe everyone should in the very least have the right to own any damn one they want...shouldn't even be an issue, its in the fricken constitution!!!!! The 2nd ammendment is immutable and the people who are trying to interpret it erroneously have their head so far up their ass its coming back out their neck!) but this is way off-topic. Please take it to another mailing list. Thanks! On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Cliff Boyer wrote: > >No, they don't. The Nagant (7.62x 64) has a groove diameter of .310" and > >uses a .311"-.312" size bullet. > > > >whoa, didn't know about the Nagant, better check the book next time. > >Friend has an old WW I surplus one, I think he's reloading the wrong > >size. It uses the .303 Brit instead? > > > > > One last comment on this side discussion: It's nice to see that there > are still many folks that enjoy and participate in a hobby that involves > firearms. And not afraid to let it be known, especially with all of the > negative stories in the news lately (like the last decade or so)! > > Remember, always think saftey first! > > Enjoy, > Cliff Boyer > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 16 22:05:22 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Very OT! Re: (OT, in a way...) References: <3.0.1.16.19980616095806.58e7cd82@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <35873272.68EF7DA6@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > > At 10:20 PM 6/15/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>I know I can type it as: "You know, the 00's really suck!" But how the > >>heck > >>are we supposed to pronounce it? > >> > >>Simple, as anyone who owns a .30-06 deer rifle can tell tell you, it > >>will be the "double ought" decade. Same as 100 years ago, the first > >>year will be "ought zero". BTW, .30-06 is a US rifle caliber, .308 > >>inches (7.62mm), designed in 1906, or "thirty ought six". 20 years from > >>now, we'll be talking about that old 500Mhz P II made back in "Ought > >>One". > >> Jack Peacock > >> > >> > >Hi guys & gals! > > > >Uhh, lets not confuse .308in bullet size with bullet caliber. > > > >The .308 Winchester cartridge was introduced in 1952 and adpoted in 1954 by > >the U.S. military. It was designed with a reduced overall weight(a little > >shorter). > >The idea was that a G.I. could carry more ammo into combat! The correct > >military designation for this cartridge was 7.62x51mm NATO. > > > >BTW, I believe it's "aught" with an A! > > > >Sorry, computers are not my only hobby. > > > >Cliff Boyer > > Well if you want to be exact, the .308 and 7.62mm rounds are two > different things! .308 is the commercial designation and 7.62mm is the > military designation and the two rounds are slightly different. Many > people interchange them and think that they're both the same but many rifle > manufacturers warn you against using the wrong type in their product. The > difference in the two is in the curviture of the bullet where it seats > against the lands in the barrel. If you use the wrong type of ammo the > incorrect bullet seating can cause excessive barrel pressure and damage or > burst the rifle barrel or action. > > Furthermore, the nominal bullet size for both the .308, 7.62mm and the > .30-06 are all .308 inches diameter. BUT the rifle barrel bore diameter is > .300 inches, that's why the rifles that these rounds are used in are > considered to be .30 caliber and why the .30-06 is ".30". The grooves in > the rifle barrel have a slighly larger diameter (.306") than the bore but > the groove diameter is still smaller than .308". The bullet has to be > squeezed down in size slightly to pass through the barrel. This is called > "upsetting". This provides a gas tight seal and a higher bullet velocity > and less gas cutting of the barrel material. > > And no, there's no "A" in ought. > > I have lots of hobbys too. Too many! Well, computers and guns are a good combination, IMAO. One lets you work on close vision, the other gives a range. My favorite rifle is my Marlin lever-action .38/.357 carbine. My favourite pistol is an old Colt .45 Commander. My favorite OS is still OS-9, but for day-to-day _work_, Red Hat Linux does the job. (My favorite word processor is Scripsit 2.0 for the TRS-80 Model 2, if anybody locates a copy I'll be grateful). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Jun 16 22:02:59 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: ok, end of OT, but thanks! In-Reply-To: References: <199806170110.UAA25762@ns.ezl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980616220259.3b7ffd0e@intellistar.net> At 07:51 PM 6/16/98 -0700, Sam wrote: > >I enjoy guns as much as the next guy (really, I do, came from a hunting >family and believe everyone should in the very least have the right to own >any damn one they want...shouldn't even be an issue, its in the fricken >constitution!!!!! The 2nd ammendment is immutable and the people who >are trying to interpret it erroneously have their head so far up their ass >its coming back out their neck!) but this is way off-topic. Please take >it to another mailing list. I already have. Peace, Joe From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 16 22:35:30 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: CP/M References: <199806140238.AA09977@world.std.com> Message-ID: <35873982.74B96FD7@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > Apple is weird with their formats, nearly hardsector. C-128 has a few > compatable and incompatable formats. The rest were all over the map. Actually, Apple was the _ultimate_ soft-sector, as it didn't pay any attention to sector detect at all -- it had to read the whole track then figure out where it started. It's a major reason why database applications were never a big thing on Apples until hard disks showed up -- updating things by record was only possible by writing whole tracks. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From william at ans.net Tue Jun 16 22:32:35 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980616175630.65ff5eee@ricochet.net> Message-ID: > My problem is not so much distance as it is time. I'd gladly do a week-end > trip to, say, Los Angeles (~500 miles), for most anything, if I didn't have > to spend the time a) working, b) with my dad, c) with my girlfriend or d) > sleeping (ha!). That is why I put in all of those "assumes". I know planning such a trip is almost impossible for those of us that have lives/families/jobs. I just wanted to see just how far some of us would take the hells of the Interstates. Incidently, I do not drive the Interstates much, as there are not many junkyards along them. US routes, on the other hand, have them. If anyone wants a pair of gutted S/360s, I will show them just where along Illinois 1 to find them! William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 16 22:54:01 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Unusual find References: <000701bd972a$2b64f860$cf010bce@fauradon> Message-ID: <35873DD9.784F0448@cnct.com> Francois wrote: > > Hi, > I just found a book Titled Odyssey Pepsi to Apple by John Sculley. It is the > advance copy from uncorrected manuscript. > How often do anyone of you run into that kind of print? > Here is what it says on the cover: > This is an advance copy from uncorrected manuscript. The regular edition > will be hardcover. Reviewers are reminded that changes may be made in this > manuscript copy before books are printed. If any material from the book is > to be quoted in a review, the quotation should be checked against the final > bound book. > A final chapter, The Second Renaissance, is not included in this reading > copy. It will appear in the printed book. > > Harper & Row, Publishers, New York. It's called a trade paperback, originally the way a book was distributed "to the trade" without the expensive hard covers. Before the format had its own chart on the bestseller lists, it was the way that books were released for review before official publication, to distributors, buyers for chain bookstores, magazine reviewers etc. Actually, I get 3-4 such yearly from Del Rey for review a couple of months before the hardcovers come out -- hey, I'm a book reviewer, not a _critic_, I can read. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 16 23:01:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <199806170401.AA22798@world.std.com> <> Apple is weird with their formats, nearly hardsector. C-128 has a few < Message-ID: <358740F0.BA704BCF@cnct.com> Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > I was just wondering on the rarity of DEC's PDPx machines - I gather > > that '11s are still pretty common (relatively!), but what about earlier > > machines in the line? > > The 8's are also pretty common. I believe they're one of the most > common mini's ever built along with the 11. > > > > > Also - what did PDP stand for? (I don't expect that "Portable" came into > > Programmable Data Processor. (There's a PDP8 and PDP11 FAQ with a lot > of info BTW). > > > it ;*) > > Sorry for the dumb question - I grew up with classic 8-bit micros and > > 32-bit Unix machines - shame I missed out on some of the big old boxes, > > they sound like fun (if a bit impractical from a storage point of view!! > > :) > > They were a LOT more fun than your average WINTEL box. German measles is a lot more fun than your average Wintel box. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 16 23:11:33 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? References: Message-ID: <358741F5.DA01AF7B@cnct.com> Julian Richardson wrote: > hey, wintel machines are great fun - at least in the sense that they're > amusing due to the terrible hardware and software that's a complete joke > :) > > Jules Hire the handicapped. They don't get much work done, but they're fun to watch. (And Intel _without_ Win runs dynamite Linux). (Win _without_ Intel runs -- well, not much). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Jun 16 23:10:08 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199806170410.OAA10404@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 04:41 PM 16-06-98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >Don't forget Eunice! OK, maybe it's better that you forget. Sounds of VMS administrator running screaming around the office. I thought I'd got over that "interesting" piece of software, but clearly not :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 16 23:17:16 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Collectable Old Microsoft Stuff References: Message-ID: <3587434C.1A8FF787@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > And collectable software: > > > > - Flight Simulator v1.0 > > Wasn't that a SubLogic product? It had been. But Micro$oft started the numbering over when they licensed the PC version. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jfedorko at virtualadmin.com Tue Jun 16 23:16:33 1998 From: jfedorko at virtualadmin.com (Joel Fedorko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items Message-ID: <01BD9985.C1B051E0@hardhead.virtualadmin.com> I'd almost be interested in a gutted 360 if the front panel was intact! Speaking of big iron, what's the best place to look for DEC10s or 20s? Maybe even a 360/20? I think a 360/90 would be neat but the CPU and cooling would fill my garage. -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli [SMTP:william@ans.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 11:33 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items > My problem is not so much distance as it is time. I'd gladly do a week-end > trip to, say, Los Angeles (~500 miles), for most anything, if I didn't have > to spend the time a) working, b) with my dad, c) with my girlfriend or d) > sleeping (ha!). That is why I put in all of those "assumes". I know planning such a trip is almost impossible for those of us that have lives/families/jobs. I just wanted to see just how far some of us would take the hells of the Interstates. Incidently, I do not drive the Interstates much, as there are not many junkyards along them. US routes, on the other hand, have them. If anyone wants a pair of gutted S/360s, I will show them just where along Illinois 1 to find them! William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 16 23:28:20 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... References: <3.0.1.16.19980615174408.5cff28b4@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19980616092635.4857052e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <358745E4.E03A40B5@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > >> Yes, XENIX. They also made it (XENIX) for the Tandy 6000 and for some > >> Zenith computers (248?). > > > >No, Tandy made Xenix for the Tandy 6000, SCO made Xenix for the Zenith > >and other Intel computers. > > I now have a ****huge**** pile of Tandy 6000 manauls. They all say > copywrite MS. > > I HAD a Zenith computer with XENIX, I'm pretty sure the on screen > copyright notice also said MS but I may be wrong. Micro$oft licensed the source from Bell Labs. They could not make it a product themselves (though they did borrow many concepts that went into MS-DOS 2.0 and on into NT), so they sublet it to other companies who actually did make it work, notably Altos, Tandy and SCO. Yes, there are Micro$oft copyright notices. On your Zenith, they should have been between the AT&T and SCO copyright notices. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Jun 16 23:23:47 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: Roger Ivie's message of Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:47:55 -0700 (MST) References: <01IYB5LCG76AAYK599@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <199806170423.VAA22725@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Roger Ivie wrote: > Eunice wasn't a DEC product, though. It was done by the folks who > eventually became The Wollongong Group. Um, no. It was developed at SRI, I think by David Kashtan who was later one of the founders of TGV. Wollongong sold it, and supported it, but I wasn't involved in it except as an occasional user so don't have much to say. -Frank McConnell From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Jun 16 23:28:06 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: 9 TRK Drives, Oz, Driving Message-ID: Hello List::::: I am looking for one or two 'real' DEC 9 trk tape drives w/formatter cards, in the SoCal area... TU16 and the like, and one of the small 7" reel jobs whose model number escapes me just now. I am willing to pay moderate sums for known-good-working units. Also looking for a *complete* 11/750 system... (computer, drives, tape unit, console, docs[ha!], etc.). I have a very old 11/15 to sell/trade, and several Plessey clone devices, including two CDC Caelus drives w/interface cards and engineering docs.... I can deliver in the General SoCal area. Note to Down Under Listmembers: I will be travelling to Sydney on the 2nd of July, and then caravanning to Adelaide over the space of about 10 days. It would be cool to meet some of my fellow collectors while I'm in your quadrant of the globe. E-mail me privately if there's any interest.... esp. Huw Davies, it would be fun to thank you in person for the help with my RK05 odyssey... ;} Driving: The farthest I've gone to 'rescue' PDP stuff was Los Angeles to Seattle and back in three days... 2200 miles. It was truly fun to be out on the Road away from work, phones, e-mail, faxes, memos, interruptions... thanks again to Bruce Lane for providing the excuse.. :o Oh, yeah... anyone have a Kennedy 9300 cheap/trade/free? I need some Parts...... Cheers John From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Jun 16 23:31:40 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199806170431.OAA10651@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 01:40 PM 16-06-98 -0700, Max Eskin wrote: >Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port? >Apple - A/UX >IBM - AIX >MS - Xenix >AT&T - UNIX >DEC? Ultrix (BSD 4.2 with extensions) (VAX and MIPS) OSF/1 (MIPS (never really released) and Alpha) Digital Unix (Alpha and IA-64 (sometime in the next millennium)) Digital also has/had a SysV port for VAXs that they sold to telephone switching companies. There was also Venix for the Pro series of personal computers (based on -11s). I guess there's also versions of Unix for PDP-7s :-) and PDP-11s sourced from some small unknown company (Bell? AT&T?? :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 16 23:39:22 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... References: <199806162317.SAA02444@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3587487A.D21F2E15@cnct.com> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DEC ported ULTRIX which is close to BSD unix to both PDP11 and VAX. Ultrix was a layer over VMS. Nowadays there is an official DEC Unix for the Alpha, though not as good as Linux for that platform. IMAO. > > DR? I don't think so. Never. But now Caldera makes CP/M and DR-DOS source available from their site that otherwise supplies Linux. > > which is which?: > > Venix > > Venix86 / 286 By VenturCom - IIRC, an (almost) real-time UNIX variant Was available for the Tandy 2000 (80186) system. > > Zenix > > Never Heard of this one . . . It's a popular? misspelling of Xenix by people who can't read. If you see Zenix on a resume, don't hire that person. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Jun 16 23:36:09 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: 9 TRK Drives, Oz, Driving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199806170436.OAA10601@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:28 PM 16-06-98 -0700, John Lawson wrote: > Note to Down Under Listmembers: I will be travelling to Sydney on >the 2nd of July, and then caravanning to Adelaide over the space of >about 10 days. It would be cool to meet some of my fellow collectors >while I'm in your quadrant of the globe. E-mail me privately if >there's any interest.... esp. Huw Davies, it would be fun to thank >you in person for the help with my RK05 odyssey... ;} Blushes slightly :-) I guess I'm happy to meet/talk/drink under the table any visitors to Victoria who are into classic computing. John, are you planning to visit Melbourne on your way to Adelaide from Sydney. If so, drop me a personal e-mail and we'll see what we can organize. > Driving: The farthest I've gone to 'rescue' PDP stuff was Los >Angeles to Seattle and back in three days... 2200 miles. It was >truly fun to be out on the Road away from work, phones, e-mail, >faxes, memos, interruptions... thanks again to Bruce Lane for >providing the excuse.. :o I'd have no problem driving to either Sydney or Adelaide to rescue/collect the right bit of computing history. For those of you with a poor sense of Australian geography, Sydney is about 750 miles north, Adelaide about 500 miles east. Someone locally will correct me if I've go the distances wrong - I'm a km person myself and I did very rough km to mile conversions but you get the point. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 16 23:44:33 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) References: <199806160320.WAA28099@ns.ezl.com> <3.0.3.32.19980616121640.00826b40@netpath.net> Message-ID: <358749B1.54D877C0@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > Note to self: Do not, I repeat DO NOT disgruntle members of the classiccmp > mailing list! They are dangerous gun toting mercenaries! :) No, mercenaries only shoot for money, gun hobbyists shoot for fun. PS/2s can be lots of fun. > At 09:58 AM 6/16/98, you wrote: > > > Well if you want to be exact, the .308 and 7.62mm rounds are two > >different things! .308 is the commercial designation and 7.62mm is the > >military designation and the two rounds are slightly different. Many > > ________________________________________ > john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - > webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - > "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - > enemy other people to shoot at." - -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jfedorko at virtualadmin.com Tue Jun 16 23:42:29 1998 From: jfedorko at virtualadmin.com (Joel Fedorko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: 9 TRK Drives, Oz, Driving Message-ID: <01BD9989.5BC2BC20@hardhead.virtualadmin.com> John, The state surplus office down the road gets them from time to time... would shipping from MD be a problem? If not... I'll try to keep my eyes open for you. -----Original Message----- From: John Lawson [SMTP:jpl15@netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 12:28 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: 9 TRK Drives, Oz, Driving Hello List::::: I am looking for one or two 'real' DEC 9 trk tape drives w/formatter cards, in the SoCal area... TU16 and the like, and one of the small 7" reel jobs whose model number escapes me just now. I am willing to pay moderate sums for known-good-working units. Also looking for a *complete* 11/750 system... (computer, drives, tape unit, console, docs[ha!], etc.). I have a very old 11/15 to sell/trade, and several Plessey clone devices, including two CDC Caelus drives w/interface cards and engineering docs.... I can deliver in the General SoCal area. Note to Down Under Listmembers: I will be travelling to Sydney on the 2nd of July, and then caravanning to Adelaide over the space of about 10 days. It would be cool to meet some of my fellow collectors while I'm in your quadrant of the globe. E-mail me privately if there's any interest.... esp. Huw Davies, it would be fun to thank you in person for the help with my RK05 odyssey... ;} Driving: The farthest I've gone to 'rescue' PDP stuff was Los Angeles to Seattle and back in three days... 2200 miles. It was truly fun to be out on the Road away from work, phones, e-mail, faxes, memos, interruptions... thanks again to Bruce Lane for providing the excuse.. :o Oh, yeah... anyone have a Kennedy 9300 cheap/trade/free? I need some Parts...... Cheers John From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 17 00:21:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: ok, end of OT, but thanks! References: <199806170110.UAA25762@ns.ezl.com> Message-ID: <3587524E.E3012485@cnct.com> Cliff Boyer wrote: > > >No, they don't. The Nagant (7.62x 64) has a groove diameter of .310" and > >uses a .311"-.312" size bullet. > > > >whoa, didn't know about the Nagant, better check the book next time. > >Friend has an old WW I surplus one, I think he's reloading the wrong > >size. It uses the .303 Brit instead? > > > > > One last comment on this side discussion: It's nice to see that there > are still many folks that enjoy and participate in a hobby that involves > firearms. And not afraid to let it be known, especially with all of the > negative stories in the news lately (like the last decade or so)! > > Remember, always think saftey first! _Always_ safety first. When you shoot, make sure the hole at the end of the barrel is pointing the other way. Here in New Jersey, despite the difficulty in getting permission from the government to buy a gun in the first place, it's amazing how many folks shoot themselves in the back of the head while they're cleaning their rifles, often three or four shots. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From kyrrin at jps.net Wed Jun 17 00:26:24 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (kyrrin@jps.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: FW: FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35875313.265932160@smtp.wa.jps.net> ATTN: Rescue folk (with a budget) in Durham, NC: This fellow's got a lot of decent 11/23 stuff. His asking price seems right on the border of high, but I'll bet he could be talked down if one is serious about it. Contact him directly if interested. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On 17 Jun 1998 03:22:46 GMT, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>From: biggers@gui.modelview.com (Mark R. Biggers) >>Newsgroups: triangle.forsale,alt.sys.pdp11,misc.forsale.computers.other.systems >>Subject: FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC >>Date: 17 Jun 1998 03:22:46 GMT >>Organization: MindSpring Enterprises >>Lines: 87 >>Message-ID: >>Reply-To: biggers@_no_spam_saiph.com >>NNTP-Posting-Host: user-38ldc1f.dialup.mindspring.com >>Keywords: DEC PDP-11/23 >>X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.172.3.49!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!biggers >>Xref: blushng.jps.net triangle.forsale:4284 alt.sys.pdp11:164 misc.forsale.computers.other.systems:746 >> >>FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC >> >>I have for sale or donation a *package* of PDP-11/23 minicomputers and >>software: >> >>* The PDP-11/23 system (all 18-bit, I think): >> >> 1 M8186 LSI-11/23 CPU card, MMU but no FP chip. >> 1 M8059FC 128Kx16bit memory card ? >> 2 M8044 32Kx16bit memory card >> 1 M8043 DLV11-J quad serial line controller >> 1 M8013 RLV11 RL02 disk controller (2 card set) >> 1 M8014 " " " " >> 1 M8012YA BVD11YA backplane controller with ROM, clock, etc >> >>* The PDP-11/23 PLUS system (looks almost brand-new): >> >> 1 M8089 PDP-11/23+ CPU card with MMU, FP and CIS chip sets >> 1 M8067KB MVS11-P memory, 256Kx22bit >> 1 8061 RLV12 RL02 disk controller >> 1 M7957 DZV11-J controller >> >> 2 RL02 disk drives >> 15 RL02 disk packs (10Mb each) >> 1 bus extension card (pushes the card outside the cabinet) >> >>* Other hardware >> >> 1 RX02 dual 8" disk drive with controller card >> >> 2 4x9 slot card cages, one 18-bit bus, one 22-bit. Both have >> heavy duty power supplies, fans, power/reset/halt switches. >> >> 1 4'x19" DEC rack >> 1 single height blank panel >> 4 sets of sliders >> >> The rack holds 6 single height modules: the CPUs' card cages >> are all single height, the disks are all double height. The rack >> comes with a filtered, remote-switched power distribution panel. >> >> National Semi Q-bus 22-bit, 512KB memory bought at TCF in 1990 or so. >> >>* Books/software: >> >> Old RT-11 (Version 4.1?) distribution on RL02 and RX02 media >> Includes all kernel sources and macro assembler. >> >> Fortran, basic, DIBOL (DEC COBOL) and a few other things >> >> Complete RT-11 manual set (3 feet of binders) plus assorted PDP >> data books and other stuff >> >> Complete schematics for an 11/23+ (this is the field set). >> >> BSD2.9 manuals >> >> My docs are all 1983/1984 vintage, which is fine for the boards I >> have, but they don't document newer Q-bus stuff. >> >>==== >>>> I am asking $199 or BEST OFFER for the package. <<<< >> >>It all must go as a LOT -- no piecemeal sales. >> >>You'll need a full-size pickup truck, a industrial-grade hand-truck >>and two strong bodies (hopefully not including mine). >> >>I would like to get this equipment to someone who will *use it*, as >>opposed to someone who wants one board or manual and will put the >>remainder in a dumpster. The buyer should at least *properly recycle >>the equipment* that is not needed. >> >>Most of it was working when obtained. I saw the 11/23 system booted >>and running off the RL02s, under RT-11 (in 1991). The 19" rack has >>been sitting crated since that time (without any computer equipment >>inside) in the damp basement of my house -- I have no idea of its >>current condition. Everything else is upstairs, in the way... >> >>I'm located in Durham, North Carolina, very close to I-85 (2.5 hours >>to Richmond VA, 4+ hours to D.C., 9 hours to NYC by car). >> >>EMAIL: biggers@_no_spam_saiph.com >> (remove the anti-spam to reply, thanks!) >> >>or CALL 919-286-1441 >> >>----mark -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jun 17 01:11:17 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <3587487A.D21F2E15@cnct.com> References: <199806162317.SAA02444@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806170611.QAA11199@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:39 AM 17-06-98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >Ultrix was a layer over VMS. Nah. Ultrix-32 (which later became just Ultrix) was BSD 4.2 with some 4.3 bits added in. No VMS required. Eunice was the Unix that was layered on top of VMS. Wimper..... (see previous posting regarding my thoughts on Eunice). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 17 02:18:02 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <35873982.74B96FD7@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Actually, Apple was the _ultimate_ soft-sector, as it didn't pay any > attention to sector detect at all -- it had to read the whole track > then figure out where it started. It's a major reason why database > applications were never a big thing on Apples until hard disks showed > up -- updating things by record was only possible by writing whole > tracks. Um, I don't know that to be true. That is, the Apple OS did NOT have to write the entire track in order to write one sector. The Apple tracks included sufficient sync bytes between sectors and between sector header and data fields to allow time for the proper location to be found and then written to. I was curious enough to go back to my Apple and continue where I left off many years ago and figure out the DOS code which writes sectors. That is one of the few things I didn't intimately know about the Apple DOS. I began disassembling the machine code tonight but I haven't figured it out just yet. There is only enough buffer space in the Apple DOS RWTS (Read Write Track Subroutines) for the DOS to create one 342 byte 6&2 encoded sector. As far as I know (or think), the OS would search for the address header prologue, which was D5 AA 96, then the data following that contained (among other data) the sector number, then you'd get the address epilogue (DE AA EB). If this was the sector you wanted, you then went into a tight timing loop to bypass the sync bytes (a series of 10-bit words consisting of 8 '1' bits and 2 '0' bits) and then...this is where it gets fuzzy. The data area is has a prologue of D5 AA AD, then 342 6&2 encoded bytes, then the prologue (DE AA EB). [6&2 encoding was an encoding method to insure there were never any bytes written to the disk containing two consecutive zero bits, a no-no for the Disk ][ hardware (this is what made it strange to work with). 6&2 refers to how the bits of each byte were separated: the first 6 bits of an 8-bit byte were indexed into a table which contained all possible 8-bit bytes with the 8th bit set and no consecutive zero bits; this was the value actually written to disk; the remaining two bits of each byte were combined with the two-bits of other bytes to form more 6-bit words that were indexed into the lookup table. 256 bytes * 8 bits / 6 bits = 342 bytes needed for 6&2 encoding. There was also 4&4 encoding which was less efficient as it used up more disk space but was simpler. 4&4 is where you insert a '1' bit between each bit of a byte, therefore, each byte would take two disk bytes to store, but again you would insure that there were no consecutive zero bits written.] Anyway, I'm going to research this and come back with my conclusion if anyone's interested. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From pcoad at wco.com Wed Jun 17 02:59:14 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: old mac cards Message-ID: As part of a deal I got a small pile of Mac nubus cards. My goal is to identify them and find them new homes before I need to get them shots, fixed, or they start reproducing in my closet like the 1200 bps modem cards seem to be doing. Farallon PhoneNET Card It has AUI and 10BaseT connectors. This one looks like an ethernet card. Is it? Apple Ethernet? card Has what looks like an AUI connector (female 15 pin) but without the locking slide device. Also has female BNC connector. On solder side it has "APPLE COMPUTER (C) 1987 820-0207-A and the word "hoke" near the upper back edge. Apple Macintosh IIci Cache Card (nubus) Duh. I can make a good guess at this one. Unknown nubus board Has markings DRO1 DEMO PC 10-184464- SER. NO. AA on component side. Has several unmarked chips and empty sockets. There is also a good deal of loose blue wire running hither and yon. On the end is a female 37 pin connector. Obviously this is a prototype. Is there any way to find out for what? Make me an offer. I have no way to test these cards. They are offered as is. As always I am looking for cool/old/strange/small Sun stuff. Cash is good too. Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 17 04:46:48 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: FW: FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980617054011.00683c90@netpath.net> Well, I don't have a need or want for it, but I do only live 45 minutes away if someone needs a warm body to go snag it. If anything, I might be interested in the 19" rack unit itself, no guts. So, if anyone wants to pick it up, I'm available. At 05:26 AM 6/17/98 GMT, kyrrin@jps.net wrote: > ATTN: Rescue folk (with a budget) in Durham, NC: This fellow's got a >lot of decent 11/23 stuff. His asking price seems right on the border of >high, but I'll bet he could be talked down if one is serious about it. > > Contact him directly if interested. Attachment follows. > >-=-=- -=-=- > >On 17 Jun 1998 03:22:46 GMT, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: > >>>From: biggers@gui.modelview.com (Mark R. Biggers) >>>Newsgroups: triangle.forsale,alt.sys.pdp11,misc.forsale.computers.other.systems >>>Subject: FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC >>>Date: 17 Jun 1998 03:22:46 GMT >>>Organization: MindSpring Enterprises >>>Lines: 87 >>>Message-ID: >>>Reply-To: biggers@_no_spam_saiph.com >>>NNTP-Posting-Host: user-38ldc1f.dialup.mindspring.com >>>Keywords: DEC PDP-11/23 >>>X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) >>>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.c om!207.172.3.49!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mind spring.com!biggers >>>Xref: blushng.jps.net triangle.forsale:4284 alt.sys.pdp11:164 misc.forsale.computers.other.systems:746 >>> >>>FS or donate: (2) DEC PDP-11/23 minicomputers, Durham NC >>> >>>I have for sale or donation a *package* of PDP-11/23 minicomputers and >>>software: >>> >>>* The PDP-11/23 system (all 18-bit, I think): >>> >>> 1 M8186 LSI-11/23 CPU card, MMU but no FP chip. >>> 1 M8059FC 128Kx16bit memory card ? >>> 2 M8044 32Kx16bit memory card >>> 1 M8043 DLV11-J quad serial line controller >>> 1 M8013 RLV11 RL02 disk controller (2 card set) >>> 1 M8014 " " " " >>> 1 M8012YA BVD11YA backplane controller with ROM, clock, etc >>> >>>* The PDP-11/23 PLUS system (looks almost brand-new): >>> >>> 1 M8089 PDP-11/23+ CPU card with MMU, FP and CIS chip sets >>> 1 M8067KB MVS11-P memory, 256Kx22bit >>> 1 8061 RLV12 RL02 disk controller >>> 1 M7957 DZV11-J controller >>> >>> 2 RL02 disk drives >>> 15 RL02 disk packs (10Mb each) >>> 1 bus extension card (pushes the card outside the cabinet) >>> >>>* Other hardware >>> >>> 1 RX02 dual 8" disk drive with controller card >>> >>> 2 4x9 slot card cages, one 18-bit bus, one 22-bit. Both have >>> heavy duty power supplies, fans, power/reset/halt switches. >>> >>> 1 4'x19" DEC rack >>> 1 single height blank panel >>> 4 sets of sliders >>> >>> The rack holds 6 single height modules: the CPUs' card cages >>> are all single height, the disks are all double height. The rack >>> comes with a filtered, remote-switched power distribution panel. >>> >>> National Semi Q-bus 22-bit, 512KB memory bought at TCF in 1990 or so. >>> >>>* Books/software: >>> >>> Old RT-11 (Version 4.1?) distribution on RL02 and RX02 media >>> Includes all kernel sources and macro assembler. >>> >>> Fortran, basic, DIBOL (DEC COBOL) and a few other things >>> >>> Complete RT-11 manual set (3 feet of binders) plus assorted PDP >>> data books and other stuff >>> >>> Complete schematics for an 11/23+ (this is the field set). >>> >>> BSD2.9 manuals >>> >>> My docs are all 1983/1984 vintage, which is fine for the boards I >>> have, but they don't document newer Q-bus stuff. >>> >>>==== >>>> I am asking $199 or BEST OFFER for the package. <<<< >>> >>>It all must go as a LOT -- no piecemeal sales. >>> >>>You'll need a full-size pickup truck, a industrial-grade hand-truck >>>and two strong bodies (hopefully not including mine). >>> >>>I would like to get this equipment to someone who will *use it*, as >>>opposed to someone who wants one board or manual and will put the >>>remainder in a dumpster. The buyer should at least *properly recycle >>>the equipment* that is not needed. >>> >>>Most of it was working when obtained. I saw the 11/23 system booted >>>and running off the RL02s, under RT-11 (in 1991). The 19" rack has >>>been sitting crated since that time (without any computer equipment >>>inside) in the damp basement of my house -- I have no idea of its >>>current condition. Everything else is upstairs, in the way... >>> >>>I'm located in Durham, North Carolina, very close to I-85 (2.5 hours >>>to Richmond VA, 4+ hours to D.C., 9 hours to NYC by car). >>> >>>EMAIL: biggers@_no_spam_saiph.com >>> (remove the anti-spam to reply, thanks!) >>> >>>or CALL 919-286-1441 >>> >>>----mark > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) >http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net >Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. >I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. > - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From gim at hitec-uk.com Wed Jun 17 05:04:01 1998 From: gim at hitec-uk.com (gim@hitec-uk.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Baby's birthday... Web Page on BBC Message-ID: <80256626.00371892.00@hitec-uk.com> Some cool pics on this page. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_114000/114493.stm From CharlesII at nwonline.net Wed Jun 17 06:11:46 1998 From: CharlesII at nwonline.net (CharlesII@nwonline.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Getting further and further OT RE: Couldn't be mor Message-ID: <199806171121.EAA14485@mxu3.u.washington.edu> CL>At 10:12 AM 6/16/98 -0700, you wrote: CL>>-----Original Message----- CL>>> Well if you want to be exact, the .308 and 7.62mm rounds are two CL>>>different things! .308 is the commercial designation and 7.62mm is CL>>the CL>>>military designation and the two rounds are slightly different. Many CL>> CL>>There are numerous .30 caliber rifles and pistols. I was referring to CL>>the diameter. There is the .30-06 (WW I/II vintage), the .308 (late CL>>50's, early Vietnam vintage, NATO), the 7.62x39 (Russian, Korea to CL>>present), the .30-30 (the famous lever action Winchester of the late CL>>1800s), the .300 Savage (first rifle to exceed 2000 fps, also late CL>>1800s), the .30 M1 carbine (WW II vintage), the .300 Winchester Magnum, CL>>the 7.62 Nagant, etc. All use the same basic diameter .308 bullet. CL>> CL> No, they don't. The Nagant (7.62x 64) has a groove diameter of .310" and CL>uses a .311"-.312" size bullet. The 7.62 x 39 is also an odd size but I CL>don't remember the exact measurement, it's probably also .311"-.312". Some CL>of the US bullet companies are now making special bullets for those two. CL>FWIW When Ruger made the Mini-30 they sized the barrel for the (US) CL>standard .308" bullets instead of the normal Russian ones. CL> Joe CL> Couldn't you take this on some other list? I really hate to say this since it is one of my hobbies but this is teariblely off topic. Thanks. From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Jun 17 06:33:07 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Getting further and further OT RE: Couldn't be mor Message-ID: >> Couldn't you take this on some other list? I really hate to say this >> since it is one of my hobbies but this is teariblely off topic. well said - I hate to say it too, even though it's definitely not one of my hobbies and is starting to get rather annoying - this list normally seems pretty good for not having loads of off-topic stuff on it... cheers Jules (rats, now I've gone and contributed to the amount of off-topic posts on this this by sending this... :) > From mbg at world.std.com Wed Jun 17 06:42:22 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... References: <199806162317.SAA02444@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806171142.AA13992@world.std.com> Ward Griffiths wrote: >Ultrix was a layer over VMS. Nowadays there is an official DEC Unix >for the Alpha, though not as good as Linux for that platform. IMAO. Bzzt... wrong, and thanks for playing. Having been a part of the Ultrix development group, I can assure you that Ultrix is NOT a layer over VMS... And as for the Digital Unix (previously DEC OSF/1), a very early version of it ran on the mips machines, back when digital was still undecided as to whether to support it on two architectures... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Jun 17 07:35:24 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:36 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <001801bd99ed$a5ab2e80$206fbcc1@hotze> Hi. Just wanted to check... What's the: 1) First calculating device (fingers and mind) 2) First human made computer (program given for input, so abbacus doesn't count, output given) 3) Computer capible of storing programs 4) Computer capible of doing more than direct math (IE run programs for AI's, etc.) 5) First digital computer 6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) 7) First computer to sell more than 1,000 8) " " " " " " 10,000 9) First computer to use a floppy disk (any kind of floppy) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From aaron at wfi-inc.com Wed Jun 17 08:39:11 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: old mac cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Paul E Coad wrote: > > As part of a deal I got a small pile of Mac nubus cards. My goal is > to identify them and find them new homes before I need to get them > shots, fixed, or they start reproducing in my closet like the 1200 bps > modem cards seem to be doing. > > Farallon PhoneNET Card > It has AUI and 10BaseT connectors. This one looks like an ethernet card. > Is it? Hah! Ya, Farallon had these nifty packages to let you integrate PC's/Mac's in the same network. I once worked on one such network that used a Mac II as the file server. Users with PC laptops who scanned tiff images in the field had to upload to it. If I remember right, it was ~3 minutes to the meg on the transfer. You can't believe how happy everyone was when I replaced that Mac II with a 66mhz 486 running NT 3.51.... From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 17 08:41:14 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <001801bd99ed$a5ab2e80$206fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980617094114.00824780@netpath.net> At 03:35 PM 6/17/98 +0300, you wrote: >Hi. Just wanted to check... > >What's the: >1) First calculating device (fingers and mind) It has been theorized that early man also used groupings of stones to count, and also a stick with grooves cut into it to measure the passing of some timed event, usually days, but often times other things too. >2) First human made computer (program given for input, so abbacus doesn't >count, output given) I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them today, it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the form of fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) >5) First digital computer Didn't someone just post a link about the "first digital computer" turning 50 years old? It was on the BBC website, I believe. >6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) >7) First computer to sell more than 1,000 >8) " " " " " " 10,000 >9) First computer to use a floppy disk (any kind of floppy) As for the rest, maybe somone more knowledgable than I can help you there. ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 17 08:58:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <199806171358.AA00680@world.std.com> >> OK. I just purchased a Windows CE handheld. I realized that: >> 1) It represents MS's rebirth. That, along with cross-platform apps, means >> that MS isn't going to be doing to much with Windows 9x/NT after a couple >> years... > Thanks for the tip, Tim. I'll dump all of my intel stock now. :-) But buy what ? DEC ? >> 2) It's lighting fast, and covers all kinds of processors. > The H/PC was a bit of a flop. For some reason, not many people wanted to > buy a machine that looked like Windows95, but ran on slower hardware with > no application compatibility. > However, I like the new Pilot rip-off, the Palm-sized PC, better. And if > you've never seen their Auto PC for cars, brace yourself for some drooling > (guaranteed to flop at the current $2K price though). They're also making > inroads into embedded systems with CE. Here you have only one solution: Buy a Newton - the MP2x00 is _WAY_ cool, neat and just great AND best of all thanks to Apple it's a brand new out of production classic. >> 2) With a MIPS-based handheld, could I get stuff moving between this and my >> N64? > Sure, just as easily as you can move stuff between the 6502 based Nintendo > and an AIM-65 (i.e., no way dOOd -- even if the CPU is the same, nothing > else is). However, I seem to recall that Microsoft recently signed-up a > game machine manufacturer for CE, and it was either Nintendo or Sega. Sega - and I bet they anounce 'General Failure' as the commander of the first shut-em-up game :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jun 17 10:17:49 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <4710@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806171421.JAA04465@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century > that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a > hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did > exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them today, > it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the form of > fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) I remember seeing a picture of this machine-- it was a link-belt of cards in a loop, with holes punched through them. They would pass by this 'reader' thingie which would 'read' the card with a matrix of metal rods poking through the holes. Using cards in such a manner would be like kinda using a ROM chip as a character generator for a CRT display. Hence the wisecrack about CGA is actually not far from the mark! ;^) > >5) First digital computer > > Didn't someone just post a link about the "first digital computer" turning > 50 years old? It was on the BBC website, I believe. > > >6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) > >7) First computer to sell more than 1,000 > >8) " " " " " " 10,000 > >9) First computer to use a floppy disk (any kind of floppy) > > As for the rest, maybe somone more knowledgable than I can help you there. > > > ________________________________________ > john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - > webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - > "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - > enemy other people to shoot at." - > > > > > > From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 09:19:32 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <001801bd99ed$a5ab2e80$206fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: > 7) First computer to sell more than 1,000 One of the S/360s went into the four digits. I am not sure which one (model 40?). 1401s may have beaten though. > 8) " " " " " " 10,000 PDP-8, probably. > 9) First computer to use a floppy disk (any kind of floppy) One of the device controllers for the S/360s. The original intent of the floppy was to distribute microcode updates. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 09:25:03 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <01BD9985.C1B051E0@hardhead.virtualadmin.com> Message-ID: > I'd almost be interested in a gutted 360 if the front panel was intact! No cards. No backplanes. No core. No front panel. No power supplies. No sheet metal. Now I sometimes buy really bad things, with hope that they will sometime (in 30 years) look somewhat normal, but these are just too far gone. In fact, the only way one could tell they were from the S/360/370 family is from the distinctive shape of the frame. > Speaking of big iron, what's the best place to look for DEC10s or 20s? Most of us would like that answer. I suppose the best bet is either the basements of universities, the backs of warehouse, or just dumb luck! > Maybe even a 360/20? EEEeeeewww! The fake 360! > I think a 360/90 would be neat but the CPU and cooling would fill my garage. Get a bigger garage. William Donzelli william@ans.net From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 17 11:38:07 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Old Alpha's (OT) Message-ID: <199806171425.QAA11211@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> Which "Alpha"? Alpha Micro? > Hmm, is that "Alpha micro" as in "Alphatronic PC"? I have a few of those > things lying around someplace in various states - my old university > wrote their own terminal software for them, burned it out to eeprom, and > we used to use them as terminals to access the Unix systems. > IIRC I did see reference to an expansion box that allowed the use of > hard drives with CP/M on - I did a lot of digging at the time and never > turned up anything for them - I just had the custom Uni terminal ROMs > and a set of BASIC ROMs that originally came with the machines. There have been several extension to the Alphatronic PC. floppy boxes and even a HD box. THe base for CP/M was the dual floppy box. > They were made by Triumph-Adler, from what I remember. Any information > on these boxes would be most helpful!! (I have the original manuals, but > they don't exactly go into a lot of detail) Just Tell me whats missing - I think I maybe have some of the stuff. Including Flopyy and Hard Disk drives. Servus Hans Owning a Alphatronic PC and 2 Alphatronics -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 09:28:56 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <001801bd99ed$a5ab2e80$206fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: > 6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) Shame on you! One does not need microprocessors to make a microchip based machine! William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 09:36:11 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > PDP-8, probably. PDP-8/e, specifically. William Donzelli william@ans.net From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 17 09:37:03 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: References: <01BD9985.C1B051E0@hardhead.virtualadmin.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980617103703.00824920@netpath.net> At 10:25 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >> Speaking of big iron, what's the best place to look for DEC10s or 20s? > >Most of us would like that answer. Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly 80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, etc.) but will take just about anything. ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 17 09:36:20 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <3587487A.D21F2E15@cnct.com> References: <199806162317.SAA02444@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980617093620.00ba0500@pc> Speaking of ultimate world domination and the always-evolving nature of classic Unix, I had a great idea the other day: Microsoft should assimilate Linux by creating a subsystem that allows recompilation of straight Linux code, or even emulation of its binaries. Sure, there's a few technical obstacles to solve, but that's what makes life fun, right? :-) - John From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Jun 17 09:43:48 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Old Alpha's (OT) Message-ID: >> There have been several extension to the Alphatronic PC. >> floppy boxes and even a HD box. THe base for CP/M was >> the dual floppy box. I'm amazed - someone who's heard of these things! :) >>> They were made by Triumph-Adler, from what I remember. Any information >>> on these boxes would be most helpful!! (I have the original manuals, but >>> they don't exactly go into a lot of detail) >> >> Just Tell me whats missing - I think I maybe have some of the >> stuff. Including Flopyy and Hard Disk drives. Well all I have are the basic Alphatronic PC units (three of these I think, although I seem to remember that the keyboard status on two of them is far from perfect - these things used to be really abused when used as terminals), one original shipping carton, two manuals, and that's it. Oh, did these things come with monitors at all? Most of the ones we had at university had 12" mono screens hooked up to them, but I don't know if they were original or not (I have a couple of these - similar shape to DEC VT320 terminals). The manuals I have (IIRC) both mention that the systems can be expanded to run CP/M, but no mention of how or what was needed; there's no pin-outs of the expansion port, cartridge slots or anything. > >> Owning a Alphatronic PC and 2 Alphatronics hmm, so what's the difference between the two? Mine are all badged "Alphatronic PC", but I checked with the university staff before I left and they never had any floppy / hard drive systems with them... (This is where I really hate not having my collection around at home, it's been so long since I've powered one of these things up I can't even remember what CPU they had. I vaguely recall that they had a lot of fairly non-standard chips inside though; the CPU may have been a rebadged part of some description) cheers Jules > From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 09:43:22 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980617103703.00824920@netpath.net> Message-ID: > Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my > general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly > 80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, > etc.) but will take just about anything. Well, this leads to the obvious question... WHERE ARE YOU? I used to have the board set to Decathalon, but I gave it to a friend who fiddles with the coin-ops. William Donzelli william@ans.net From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 09:43:58 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <19980617144358.23073.qmail@hotmail.com> OK, I know what a track and a sector is, but what is the difference between hardsector and softsector? >Allison J Parent wrote: > >> > > >> Apple is weird with their formats, nearly hardsector. C-128 has a few >> compatable and incompatable formats. The rest were all over the map. > >Actually, Apple was the _ultimate_ soft-sector, as it didn't pay any >attention to sector detect at all -- it had to read the whole track >then figure out where it started. It's a major reason why database >applications were never a big thing on Apples until hard disks showed >up -- updating things by record was only possible by writing whole >tracks. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 09:48:31 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Prodcutivity (was Re: PDP model line / rarity?) Message-ID: <19980617144831.4909.qmail@hotmail.com> Win without Intel make either a small frisbee or a coaster for tea. You can also make art out of them. However, I read in "Insanely Great" that a study had been run in the early 80's that didn't find computers to have improved productivity. Anyone know more about that? >> hey, wintel machines are great fun - at least in the sense that they're >> amusing due to the terrible hardware and software that's a complete joke >> :) >> >> Jules > >Hire the handicapped. They don't get much work done, but they're fun >to watch. > >(And Intel _without_ Win runs dynamite Linux). >(Win _without_ Intel runs -- well, not much). >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 17 09:48:29 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980617103703.00824920@netpath.net> References: <01BD9985.C1B051E0@hardhead.virtualadmin.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980617094829.00bfe380@pc> At 10:37 AM 6/17/98 -0400, John Higginbotham wrote: > >Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my >general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly >80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, >etc.) but will take just about anything. Location! Location! Location! Isn't this thread all about the bare fact that most old computers are too heavy or too worthless to ship by conventional means, and that personal pick-up is necessary? Yes, it is. Yet people continue to post "here's an extensive IMSAI system that you'll need to pick up in person" without a single word as to where it's located. Argh! - John From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 09:50:01 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <19980617145002.24870.qmail@hotmail.com> What was so "interesting" about it? Who made it, why, and when? > >>Don't forget Eunice! OK, maybe it's better that you forget. > >Sounds of VMS administrator running screaming around the office. I thought >I'd got over that "interesting" piece of software, but clearly not :-) > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au > Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 >1999 > La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Jun 17 09:52:52 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <003401bd99ff$9f367b60$206fbcc1@hotze> C'mon. Even I basically know this one. A hard sectored diskette has tiny little holes (IIRC, near the inside), so that the computer would move from one to the next in a mechanical manner (hardware), while MOST soft sectored diskettes had a single hole used for refference. From there, it would just spin around, and control the rest by software. The Apple II, however, COMPLETELY ignored this. It could use hard sectored or soft sectored diskettes, or even diskettes with no little hole at all. It was completely software driven. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 5:44 PM Subject: Re: CP/M > > > > >OK, I know what a track and a sector is, but what is the difference >between hardsector and softsector? >>Allison J Parent wrote: >> >>> >> it >>> >>> Apple is weird with their formats, nearly hardsector. C-128 has a >few >>> compatable and incompatable formats. The rest were all over the map. >> >>Actually, Apple was the _ultimate_ soft-sector, as it didn't pay any >>attention to sector detect at all -- it had to read the whole track >>then figure out where it started. It's a major reason why database >>applications were never a big thing on Apples until hard disks showed >>up -- updating things by record was only possible by writing whole >>tracks. >>-- >>Ward Griffiths >>They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >>Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. >> Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 10:01:56 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <19980617150156.12192.qmail@hotmail.com> What's a 4004, d00d? I thawt tha first chip was Pantium! --Brought to you by the United Cracking Force >> 6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) > >Shame on you! One does not need microprocessors to make a microchip based >machine! > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Jun 17 10:07:12 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Prodcutivity (was Re: PDP model line / rarity?) Message-ID: >> Win without Intel make either a small frisbee or a coaster for tea. it's a habit of mine everytime I receive free microsoft junk cds in the post at work to see how many chunks I can snip out of the CD before win NT has a complete fit trying to read the contents and blue-screens on me... :) >> However, I read in "Insanely Great" >> that a study had been run in the early 80's that didn't find >> computers to have improved productivity. That I can easily believe. Ok, certain tasks get done faster than they traditionally would have, but overall I don't think things are any quicker when you add up network downtime, system crashes, printing out documents before they can be reviewed, ordering more hardware to cope with the latest bloated apps etc. etc. (before you say it, yes I *know* I'm in the wrong business :) I'd love to hear anything that you come across about that study... cheers Jules (and as for the advent of email... it's terrible for time-wasting at work... ;*) > From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 17 12:18:07 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <199806171505.RAA14284@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>Another microsoft product which I've not seen mentioned here yet was, of >>course, the Microsoft mouse for PCs (and later those Microsoft keyboards) > Those bus mice? I worked on a friend's machine that had one: A Xerox XT > class running Windows 1.0. 640x400x2 mode I believe. Oh yeah, they were > called Inport Bus mice, ran off their own 8-bit card. Not a bad mouse for > it's time. The BUS Mouse was ... err IS ... a very useful device - I used to put them in my PCs (even Pentium) until the build PS/2 mouse became standard. Serial mice need serial ports, and a PC still has only a few :( Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 10:10:04 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction Message-ID: <19980617151005.8077.qmail@hotmail.com> My mom got fed up by the amount of junk I have in my room, so I will start to get rid of it (something I'd been planning to do). I have an external keyboard that plugs into the keyboard socket on the Apple ][ motherboard. It works fine, weighs three pounds. It has macro modules for basic, CP/M, wordstar, visicalc that plug into a little socket and modify a row of keys at the top (templates included) A little yellow, though. Anyone want? The other item is the 10-pound DG-One laptop with a smashed screen, no AC adaptor, dead battery pack, and BUTTONS on the floppy drives! I am zip code 02135. If anyone wants either just tell me. I also have a TI 99/4a w/o cartridges, seems to work fine. I think I'll just trash that... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Jun 17 10:10:58 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <003d01bd9a02$27114fe0$206fbcc1@hotze> United Cracking wha??? What kind of lusers are they? (To take a wild guess, those who think VMS is related to PMS, UNIX is dead, Linux is a nickname, and SPARC is what you get when you try to ignite a firework?) Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 6:04 PM Subject: Re: What is the first computer? > > > > >What's a 4004, d00d? I thawt tha first chip was Pantium! >--Brought to you by the United Cracking Force >>> 6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) >> >>Shame on you! One does not need microprocessors to make a microchip >based >>machine! >> >>William Donzelli >>william@ans.net >> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 17 12:40:41 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Old Alpha's (OT) Message-ID: <199806171528.RAA15767@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> There have been several extension to the Alphatronic PC. >>> floppy boxes and even a HD box. THe base for CP/M was >>> the dual floppy box. > I'm amazed - someone who's heard of these things! :) >>>> They were made by Triumph-Adler, from what I remember. Any information >>>> on these boxes would be most helpful!! (I have the original manuals, but >>>> they don't exactly go into a lot of detail) >>> Just Tell me whats missing - I think I maybe have some of the >>> stuff. Including Flopyy and Hard Disk drives. > Well all I have are the basic Alphatronic PC units (three of these I > think, although I seem to remember that the keyboard status on two of > them is far from perfect - these things used to be really abused when > used as terminals), one original shipping carton, two manuals, and > that's it. > > Oh, did these things come with monitors at all? Most of the ones we had > at university had 12" mono screens hooked up to them, but I don't know > if they were original or not (I have a couple of these - similar shape > to DEC VT320 terminals). > > The manuals I have (IIRC) both mention that the systems can be expanded > to run CP/M, but no mention of how or what was needed; there's no > pin-outs of the expansion port, cartridge slots or anything. >>> Owning a Alphatronic PC and 2 Alphatronics > hmm, so what's the difference between the two? Mine are all badged > "Alphatronic PC", but I checked with the university staff before I left > and they never had any floppy / hard drive systems with them... > (This is where I really hate not having my collection around at home, > it's been so long since I've powered one of these things up I can't even > remember what CPU they had. I vaguely recall that they had a lot of > fairly non-standard chips inside though; the CPU may have been a > rebadged part of some description) The Alphatronic PC was the last version of a somewhat successfull line of Alphatronics - The PC is a keyboard computer like the ATARI XL (but with a real keyboard) and based on the Z80. The 'old' Alphatronics where clumpsy cases with fixed keyboard like the CBM, but without a build in CRT - but they had TWO 5,25" 2/3rd high FD drives - both on the right side, one above the other - the case was quite big. As a CPU the 8085 was used. The whole system is build on several EuroCard size boards (all in a rack on the left side - thats why the FDs had to be on the other side. They has several variations (I don't want to call it modells) over the time, but basicly all the same. In Europe, especialy in Germany (their orgin) they sold like Commodores and Apples in average quanities. The PC has been directed to open the home market and to compete against all the home computers of the early '80s. I have some of the early documentation for the old ones, and maybe some newer stuff (manuals for disk etc.) Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Wed Jun 17 10:33:13 1998 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <17160827C12@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 17 Jun 98 at 9:17, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > > I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century > > that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a > > hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did > > exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them today, > > it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the form of > > fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) > > I remember seeing a picture of this machine-- it was a link-belt of > cards in a loop, with holes punched through them. They would pass by > this 'reader' thingie which would 'read' the card with a matrix of > metal rods poking through the holes. According to the dictionary I just scrounged: Jacquard (noun) Apparatus with perforated cards to facilitate weaving of figured fabrics. From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Wed Jun 17 10:33:52 1998 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction Message-ID: <01IYC8YHXFGY8Y5OFV@AC.GRIN.EDU> > My mom got fed up by the amount of junk I have in my room, so I will > start to get rid of it (something I'd been planning to do). My girlfriend's getting fed up by the amount of junk I have in our apartment, so I'm trying to get rid of some of it, too. Shipping costs are all I'm looking for (trades accepted, too, though preferably for small things). 1. An Amdek color monitor, originally for use with Apples (I think). RCA video input, eighth-inch audio input. I've used this as a spare TV, but the screen has a strong green tint to it. It's heavy. 2. A Commodore 64, sold to me as not working, never bothered to test it. No power supply or anything. 3. A docking station for a Compaq laptop - 386/486, exact model unknown. -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu CMEL: Xavier CBEL: Xavier OH Spammers: How can you be sure that I don't live in Washington State? From cfandt at servtech.com Wed Jun 17 10:43:54 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199806171544.PAA18588@cyber2.servtech.com> >On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, William Donzelli wrote: >> "Sure ", you say, "just rent a truck or something to go fetch that S/370 >> system!" Well, I likely would if it was within say, 100-200 miles or so and >> virtually free for the taking. But all joking aside, that doesn't happen >> (besides, if W. Donzelli even sniffs a nearby-to-me >> 370's availability he'd probably be there in ten minutes or less ) > >Yes. > >I would indeed travel quite some distance to pick up a S/370. I have >driven 1800 mile roundtrips (that's 900 each way) over a weekend to pick >up some non-computer goodies. In fact my first roadtrip, about four years >ago, involved me driving from Chicago to Rochester, NY (kind of your neck >of the woods) to pick up a 650 pound radio transmitter, all done in two >days. Been to Rochester often. My company was once a division of Bausch & Lomb (an instrument division). I had to run up there often for meetings and support of some equipment the Test Equipment Engineering dept. built for our facility. B&L is where my DG Nova 1200 originally came from. They sent it down as part of a hand-me-down piece of homemade printed circuit board test equipment which never worked well. I rescued the 1200, paper tape reader and associated test electronics rack from a pile of junk in an old warehouse of ours before it hit the dumpster back in '81 or '82. Still run up there three times a year at minimum for AWA board meetings and our AWA National Conference every September. >So, my point (other than to boast!) is that even if something seems too >out of the way to get (especially the big stuff), some nuts on this list >would probably go to pick it up. > >OK, how about a test... > > Say a real goodie shows up, like a perfect DEC Straight-8 or an unbuilt > Altair kit. Assume the price is good, like $250 for either. Assume that > you have the time and a working car, plus a loved one that will not scream > too much. Assume that the current owner can not ship the thing. How many > miles would you go? > Yeow! You know how to really hold my feet to the fire regarding this hypothetical test William! Yes, I would go possibly 300-400 miles (a day's drive) to fetch either of those and the wife would possibly help too (Beverly appreciates my collection of antique radios and would recognize the significance of either of these hypothetical items after she learned what they are (or were) to computing. Gotta keep costs down as we have a big mortgage and other associated remodeling expenses for now. Notice I said "hypothetical"! Fat chance in Hades for me (or many of us) to luck onto one of those as you describe. Besides, I'd get trampled to death by some of you other folks while on my way to pick them up because of some unknown telepathic message entering your minds from parts unknown because you had put up your internal, subconscious radar in dire search of them and suddenly got a 'hit' ;) Tho, if I found a free source of either a good disk/tape drive for my HP 250, all technical CE documents for the 250 and its components, VSE OS manuals for my IBM 9370 (or even VM and AIX distribution tapes and books!!!), Heath H11 OS distribution s/w with all documents or a Motorola MVME167 VMEbus system running OS-9 version 2.4 or 3.x and all docs and the owner(s) could not ship anything and it would soon be trashed then I would certainly have little choice. These are on my hot-hot list (hint-hint :-) ) Then I would for sure hit the road -maybe with not so much of Beverly's encouragement as we have a five-year-old son, but I'd sure give it a whack for the 300-400 miles! --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 17 10:46:00 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <199806171546.AA27251@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199806171623.LAA05035@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> You know John, You are absolutely right. In regards to the IMSAI posted here earlier, it is located in Wichita, Kansas. Please pardon this oversight. Jeff > >Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my > >general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly > >80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, > >etc.) but will take just about anything. > > Location! Location! Location! Isn't this thread all about the > bare fact that most old computers are too heavy or too worthless > to ship by conventional means, and that personal pick-up is necessary? > > Yes, it is. Yet people continue to post "here's an extensive > IMSAI system that you'll need to pick up in person" without a > single word as to where it's located. Argh! > > - John > > > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jun 17 12:26:00 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <9805178981.AA898129651@compsci.powertech.co.uk> John Higginbotham (or someone) wrote: >>2) First human made computer (program given for input, so abbacus doesn't >>count, output given) > > I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century > that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a > hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did > exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them > today, it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the > form of fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) :-) Someone has mentioned Jacquard, I think. He didn't invent punched cards, afaik, he got the idea from a Brit. I'll try and find out more, but I don't think either was a computer. The Jacquard loom doesn't run a program - it transfers data from cards to fabric. Full stop. I'd give the honours of 1st computer to the Zuse Z1 - a relay machine between the Wars, I think. But some mechanical calculators at that date were quite sophisticated. Comments, anyone?? >>5) First digital computer > > Didn't someone just post a link about the "first digital computer" turning > 50 years old? It was on the BBC website, I believe. They may have done, but the Manchester SSEM (Small Scale Experimental Machine) was the first computer to STORE ITS PROGRAM IN MAIN MEMORY, i.e. answer 4. Again, Konrad Zuse's pre-war relay computers were digital. Go and watch them running the Z4 in Munich... Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jun 17 12:30:37 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <9805178981.AA898130011@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > C'mon. Even I basically know this one. A hard sectored diskette has tiny > little holes (IIRC, near the inside), so that the computer would move from > one to the next in a mechanical manner (hardware), while MOST soft sectored > diskettes had a single hole used for refference. From there, it would just > spin around, and control the rest by software. The Apple II, however, > COMPLETELY ignored this. It could use hard sectored or soft sectored > diskettes, or even diskettes with no little hole at all. It was completely > software driven. Likewise the Commodore 8-bitters. In the early 1980s, I was one of the first in my school (I was 14 or so at the time) to own a floppy disk (yes, a disk, not a drive). I had heard of "flippy disks" with two index holes, which you could turn over, thus using both surfaces in a single sided drive. But I didn't realise you needed to give it a second index hole. So I just cut a second write-permit notch and turned it over. It worked! Commodore 4040 didn't use the index hole! Philip. From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Jun 17 11:36:14 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <005001bd9a0e$0df93f20$206fbcc1@hotze> >I'd give the honours of 1st computer to the Zuse Z1 - a relay machine >between the Wars, I think. But some mechanical calculators at that date >were quite sophisticated. Comments, anyone?? Well, I'd give computer credit to Babage's machine, ca. 1896, IIRC. He is, after all the one who coined the phrase "computer." Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 17 12:38:38 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <005001bd9a0e$0df93f20$206fbcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Jun 17, 98 07:36:14 pm Message-ID: <9806171638.AA19596@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980617/59ab1a7c/attachment.ksh From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 17 11:31:57 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19980617103703.00824920@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980617123157.008312c0@netpath.net> Burlington, North Carolina Research Triangle Park about 45 minutes to the east of me, Charlotte 150 miles southwest. I know you can get arcade machines on the west coast pretty cheap, but that really doesn't help me. All the big manufacturers are out west. :( At 10:43 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >> Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my >> general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly >> 80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, >> etc.) but will take just about anything. > >Well, this leads to the obvious question... > >WHERE ARE YOU? ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jun 17 11:44:21 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <199806170410.OAA10404@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <13364546099.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Don't forget Eunice!] Who's Eunice? ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jun 17 11:49:03 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <199806170611.QAA11199@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <13364546956.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> {Eunice was UNIX on top of VMS] What? That's gross! Do you mean a binary interpreter, shells and the like, or just include files and libraries for cross-compilation? Or did they run a UNIX kernel in user space? Howabouts did THAT work? It sounds fairly hairy... ------- From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 17 11:43:06 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <9805178981.AA898129651@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980617124306.0081e830@netpath.net> At 05:26 PM 6/17/98 GMT, you wrote: >but I don't think either was a computer. The Jacquard loom doesn't run >a program - it transfers data from cards to fabric. Full stop. It reads a set of instructions off the punch card, the gears or what have you interprets the pattern, and finally displays the output on the fabric. Sounds like a computer, in the broadest sense. The purists would say that it's not a computer unless it computes. I'm sure you could do math on it with a few simple modifications though. >I'd give the honours of 1st computer to the Zuse Z1 - a relay machine >between the Wars, I think. But some mechanical calculators at that date >were quite sophisticated. Comments, anyone?? Didn't that have something to do with RADAR? Or was it cryptography? ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 17 11:49:06 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <005001bd9a0e$0df93f20$206fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980617124906.0081d480@netpath.net> At 07:36 PM 6/17/98 +0300, you wrote: >Well, I'd give computer credit to Babage's machine, ca. 1896, IIRC. He is, >after all the one who coined the phrase "computer." There's a very good book out by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling called "The Difference Engine". It takes place in the 1800's, a 19th century Europe that is vastly different from our version. Sort of like Silicon Valley, circa 1855. All deriving from Babbage's first machine, which, in the book, he invented at a quite early age. ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 10:54:26 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: FS: IBM PC Jr Tech. Refefence Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617105426.2cd70aba@intellistar.net> I found this while cleaning up. Anyone need it? For sale for best offer. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 11:20:29 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <358749B1.54D877C0@cnct.com> References: <199806160320.WAA28099@ns.ezl.com> <3.0.3.32.19980616121640.00826b40@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617112029.2efffa3e@intellistar.net> At 12:44 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >John Higginbotham wrote: >> >> Note to self: Do not, I repeat DO NOT disgruntle members of the classiccmp >> mailing list! They are dangerous gun toting mercenaries! :) > >No, mercenaries only shoot for money, gun hobbyists shoot for fun. >PS/2s can be lots of fun. Especially when I get out my cannon! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 11:34:59 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Baby's birthday... Web Page on BBC In-Reply-To: <80256626.00371892.00@hitec-uk.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617113459.2ecf225c@intellistar.net> At 11:04 AM 6/17/98 +0100, you wrote:> > >Some cool pics on this page. > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_114000/114493.stm > That's pretty neat. Let me know if all the lights in town dim when they turn it back on! Any idea how many of those were sold and what they cost? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 11:38:39 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <19980617144358.23073.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617113839.2fef89e6@intellistar.net> At 07:43 AM 6/17/98 PDT, you wrote: > > > > >OK, I know what a track and a sector is, but what is the difference >between hardsector and softsector? Hard sectored disks have a sensor hole (or slot) for every sector. So they will have one index hole and 16 sector holes for a 16 sector disk. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 11:47:50 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction In-Reply-To: <01IYC8YHXFGY8Y5OFV@AC.GRIN.EDU> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617114750.2fefcfb4@intellistar.net> At 10:33 AM 6/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >> My mom got fed up by the amount of junk I have in my room, so I will >> start to get rid of it (something I'd been planning to do). > >My girlfriend's getting fed up by the amount of junk I have in our >apartment, so I'm trying to get rid of some of it, too. Shipping costs >are all I'm looking for (trades accepted, too, though preferably for >small things). > It must be contagous! I've been thinking about getting rid of some of my stuff including the IBM 5100 and some of the HPs. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 11:51:38 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items In-Reply-To: <199806171544.PAA18588@cyber2.servtech.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617115138.2fefba2a@intellistar.net> At 11:43 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >Tho, if I found a free source of either a good disk/tape drive for my HP >250, all technical CE documents for the 250 and its components, Christian, What kind of disk drive does you 250 take? I have a big collection of that kind of stuff, altough probably not THAT old. Joe From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 12:04:39 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980617124306.0081e830@netpath.net> Message-ID: > It reads a set of instructions off the punch card, the gears or what have > you interprets the pattern, and finally displays the output on the fabric. > Sounds like a computer, in the broadest sense. The purists would say that > it's not a computer unless it computes. I'm sure you could do math on it > with a few simple modifications though. The line is always grey... > Didn't that have something to do with RADAR? Or was it cryptography? No, not radar. Radar, incidently, was just about the first use of digital electonics. Although there was no computation at the digital level*, vacuum tube flip-flops and counters were used in the timing circuits, as well in IFF codes (The NRL even tried out a pre-1940 IFF box that used a real binary word for the codes, with the hope that encryption would follow. It turned out to just be a lab rat, however, and most of the war years saw the horrible British MkIII system in use.). *The mechanical fire control computers, on the other hand, are truely awesome devices. They would accept a bunch of real time input data (some from the radars, some from the ships' gyros, some from the gun pointers (sailors), and even internal data like how many times the gun was fired (wear on the barrels)) - and output a bunch of data to set up the shot. It worked well - incredibly well - 20 mile hits on the first shot were not uncommon. It took YEARS before an electronic computer could rival them. Tons of metal, but built like a Swiss watch. William Donzelli william@ans.net From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jun 17 12:06:52 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980617112029.2efffa3e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <13364550199.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [When I get out my cannon!] Do you mean shooting the PS/2 out of the cannon at someone, or shooting the PS/2 with the cannon? ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 12:15:31 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <19980617171532.7146.qmail@hotmail.com> A bunch of lusers with a site that looks like Microsoft's (exactly), and a slogan, "Warez do you want to go today?". >United Cracking wha??? What kind of lusers are they? (To take a wild >guess, those who think VMS is related to PMS, UNIX is dead, Linux is a >nickname, and SPARC is what you get when you try to ignite a firework?) > Ciao, > >Tim D. Hotze >-----Original Message----- >From: Max Eskin >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 6:04 PM >Subject: Re: What is the first computer? > > >> >> >> >> >>What's a 4004, d00d? I thawt tha first chip was Pantium! >>--Brought to you by the United Cracking Force >>>> 6) First microchip based computer (probably based on the 4004) >>> >>>Shame on you! One does not need microprocessors to make a microchip >>based >>>machine! >>> >>>William Donzelli >>>william@ans.net >>> >>> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ecloud at goodnet.com Wed Jun 17 12:15:26 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980617123157.008312c0@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jun 17, 98 12:31:57 pm Message-ID: <199806171715.KAA21790@goodnet.com> > Research Triangle Park about 45 minutes to the east of me, Charlotte 150 > miles southwest. > > I know you can get arcade machines on the west coast pretty cheap, but that > really doesn't help me. All the big manufacturers are out west. :( > > At 10:43 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: > >> Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my > >> general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly > >> 80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, > >> etc.) but will take just about anything. I could get into that too. I'm really looking for a good deal on a newer pinball machine. I'm in Phoenix, AZ. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * artificial intelligence * packet radio * knowledge base * sci fi * VRML * From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 12:22:59 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <19980617172259.11962.qmail@hotmail.com> Leonardo DaVinci is quoted as saying, "Computers are useless. They can only give answers". This was obviously way before 1850. >> after all the one who coined the phrase "computer." > >Really? I've certainly seen "computer" in use in written communications >from the 1850's. Of course, it wasn't until the late 1940's that "computer" >meant a machine and not a person, in common usage! > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 17 12:26:34 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Location, Location, Location! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980617122634.00bed100@pc> It would be nifty to have a web page with a list of Computer Rescue Squad volunteers paired with their geographical coordinates, with even perhaps a link to any one of the map-servers out there. - John From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 17 14:46:35 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: Location, Location, Location! Message-ID: <199806171734.TAA22558@marina.fth.sbs.de> > It would be nifty to have a web page with a list of Computer > Rescue Squad volunteers paired with their geographical coordinates, > with even perhaps a link to any one of the map-servers out there. Count me in :) 48 8' N 11 33' E Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 17 12:45:41 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:37 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <19980617172259.11962.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980617124541.00becd50@pc> At 10:22 AM 6/17/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: > >Leonardo DaVinci is quoted as saying, "Computers are useless. They can >only give answers". This was obviously way before 1850. I've also heard that attributed to Pablo Picasso and Einstein. I believe it was Picasso, though. - John From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 17 12:59:19 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <98e4981a.358803f8@aol.com> yes, i did the same with apple ][ floppies. i never used the special tool to punch the index hole as a sharp x-acto knife worked well. i do have one box of flippies at home and i never had a problem with using the "wrong" side. In a message dated 98-06-17 12:33:56 EDT, philip belben put forth: << Likewise the Commodore 8-bitters. In the early 1980s, I was one of the first in my school (I was 14 or so at the time) to own a floppy disk (yes, a disk, not a drive). I had heard of "flippy disks" with two index holes, which you could turn over, thus using both surfaces in a single sided drive. But I didn't realise you needed to give it a second index hole. So I just cut a second write-permit notch and turned it over. It worked! Commodore 4040 didn't use the index hole! Philip. >> From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 17 13:05:55 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <8b5a749c.3588058a@aol.com> In a message dated 98-06-17 13:08:49 EDT, Daniel Seagraves responded: << [When I get out my cannon!] Do you mean shooting the PS/2 out of the cannon at someone, or shooting the PS/2 with the cannon? >> hey, Hey,HEY! ps2 machines were announced in 1987 so they should be talked about rather than destroyed. no matter what anyone says, they were state of the art. certainly way ahead for their time. david From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 13:06:55 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <19980617180656.28099.qmail@hotmail.com> Do you have any diagrams of the mechanical fire control computers? > >The line is always grey... > >> Didn't that have something to do with RADAR? Or was it cryptography? > >No, not radar. > >Radar, incidently, was just about the first use of digital electonics. >Although there was no computation at the digital level*, vacuum tube >flip-flops and counters were used in the timing circuits, as well in IFF >codes (The NRL even tried out a pre-1940 IFF box that used a real binary >word for the codes, with the hope that encryption would follow. It turned >out to just be a lab rat, however, and most of the war years saw the >horrible British MkIII system in use.). > >*The mechanical fire control computers, on the other hand, are truely >awesome devices. They would accept a bunch of real time input data (some >from the radars, some from the ships' gyros, some from the gun pointers >(sailors), and even internal data like how many times the gun was >fired (wear on the barrels)) - and output a bunch of data to set up the >shot. It worked well - incredibly well - 20 mile hits on the first shot >were not uncommon. It took YEARS before an electronic computer could rival >them. > >Tons of metal, but built like a Swiss watch. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 17 13:07:38 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Location, Location, Location! Message-ID: <94aff1d.358805eb@aol.com> In a message dated 98-06-17 13:28:14 EDT, you write: << It would be nifty to have a web page with a list of Computer Rescue Squad volunteers paired with their geographical coordinates, with even perhaps a link to any one of the map-servers out there. >> wasnt there something similar posted last year? the name isaac comes to mind. anyone remember? david From erd at infinet.com Wed Jun 17 13:14:55 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction In-Reply-To: <19980617151005.8077.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 17, 98 08:10:04 am Message-ID: <199806171814.OAA13298@user2.infinet.com> Sorry for this public reply, but Max didn't include his e-mail in the body of the message and the listserver stripped it out of the header. Max Eskin writes: > My mom got fed up by the amount of junk I have in my room... Have you thought about a new mom? ;-) > The other item is the 10-pound DG-One laptop with a smashed screen, > no AC adaptor, dead battery pack, and BUTTONS on the floppy drives! I am unfamiliar with DG PC designations... is this an 8088? Newer? Floppy only? Floppy+HD? > I am zip code 02135. If anyone wants either just tell me... I _might_ be interested in the DG-One, depending on what's under th hood. I am in 43202 (approx 40N by 83W, for the rescue list). Thanks, -ethan From higginbo at netpath.net Wed Jun 17 13:18:33 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Location, Location, Location! In-Reply-To: <94aff1d.358805eb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980617141833.008097d0@netpath.net> Bill Yakowenko is the guy. http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/index.html is the page. At 02:07 PM 6/17/98 EDT, you wrote: ><< It would be nifty to have a web page with a list of Computer > Rescue Squad volunteers paired with their geographical coordinates, > with even perhaps a link to any one of the map-servers out there. >> > >wasnt there something similar posted last year? the name isaac comes to mind. >anyone remember? ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 17 13:20:29 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806171820.AA28272@world.std.com> <>OK, I know what a track and a sector is, but what is the difference <>between hardsector and softsector? < < Hard sectored disks have a sensor hole (or slot) for every sector. S Message-ID: I recently acquired a 9825B, and I've got some questions: Can I get some docs from somebody?! I can't figure out how to program the thing. The keyboard on mine appears to be different than that of another 9825B on the net. How many different 9825B variations were there? A pic of mine juxtaposed with somebody else's is at: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/hp/ My "exectute" key is stuck. I haven't taken the machine appart yet, but the keyboard mechanism isn't likely to match anything I have laying around the house. Does anybody have any experience repairing this machine's keyboard? BTW, it seems like a great machine! I like the LED display. Did anybody ever make a similar model, but with, say, an 80x24 character LED display? -- Doug From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 13:38:44 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <19980617180656.28099.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Do you have any diagrams of the mechanical fire control computers? I have access to the maintenance manuals for the later (ca.1940) types, but they are very thick books jammed with drawings. Copying one would be a real chore. Next time I am in Fall River I can see what I can find in terms of drawings of the "big picture". The computers have _thousands_ of precision moving parts. The nice thing is that they never broke. I am sure that one could lube up various bits of one today and it would perfectly. One, a torpedo data computer on the Submarine Pampanito, has gotten this treatment and does in fact work just as it did 50 years ago. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 17 13:41:17 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980617093620.00ba0500@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, John Foust wrote: > Speaking of ultimate world domination and the always-evolving > nature of classic Unix, I had a great idea the other day: > Microsoft should assimilate Linux by creating a subsystem > that allows recompilation of straight Linux code, or even > emulation of its binaries. Sure, there's a few technical > obstacles to solve, but that's what makes life fun, right? :-) What would be the point of adding bugs to the operating system that you switch to when you're fed up with Win95 crashes? But you're right. If MS was smart they'd dump the Win95/NT kernal and give in to Linux. The Win95 GUI would be a nice desktop for Linux, except ApplixWare beat them to it already :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 13:50:19 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <19980617185020.10846.qmail@hotmail.com> The nice thing about mechanisms is that all one needs to understand them theoretically is a finger, some Advil, and the ability to multiply/divide. Following a circuit board is much less intuitive. >I have access to the maintenance manuals for the later (ca.1940) types, >but they are very thick books jammed with drawings. Copying one would be a >real chore. Next time I am in Fall River I can see what I can find in >terms of drawings of the "big picture". > >The computers have _thousands_ of precision moving parts. The nice thing >is that they never broke. I am sure that one could lube up various bits of >one today and it would perfectly. One, a torpedo data computer on the >Submarine Pampanito, has gotten this treatment and does in fact work just >as it did 50 years ago. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 17 13:52:46 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <199806171421.JAA04465@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century > > that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a > > hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did > > exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them today, > > it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the form of > > fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) > > I remember seeing a picture of this machine-- it was a link-belt of > cards in a loop, with holes punched through them. They would pass by > this 'reader' thingie which would 'read' the card with a matrix of > metal rods poking through the holes. BTW, this was called the Jacquard Loom, named after the inventor, Joseph-Marie Jacquard. The basic punch card idea led to Herman Hollerith's census tabulator and was adopted by Charles Babbage in his designs for his difference engine. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 13:59:19 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <19980617185020.10846.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > The nice thing about mechanisms is that all one needs to understand > them theoretically is a finger, some Advil, and the ability to > multiply/divide. Following a circuit board is much less intuitive. And integrate and differentiate! That is _really_ had to do if you do not know the functions of the cams! The trig functions can also be completely non-obvious! William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 17 14:03:07 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <005001bd9a0e$0df93f20$206fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Hotze wrote: > Well, I'd give computer credit to Babage's machine, ca. 1896, IIRC. He is, > after all the one who coined the phrase "computer." It was more like mid-1800's, and he never complete the machine, only the (theoretical) design. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 17 14:05:24 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <13364546956.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > {Eunice was UNIX on top of VMS] > > What? That's gross! > Do you mean a binary interpreter, shells and the like, or just > include files and libraries for cross-compilation? > Or did they run a UNIX kernel in user space? > Howabouts did THAT work? It sounds fairly hairy... Fairly "hairy"? C'mon Daniel! I don't know which inuendo is more gross! ;) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From dastar at wco.com Wed Jun 17 13:57:44 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction In-Reply-To: <01IYC8YHXFGY8Y5OFV@AC.GRIN.EDU> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Benjamin M Coakley wrote: > My girlfriend's getting fed up by the amount of junk I have in our > apartment, so I'm trying to get rid of some of it, too. Shipping costs > are all I'm looking for (trades accepted, too, though preferably for > small things). > > 1. An Amdek color monitor, originally for use with Apples (I think). RCA > video input, eighth-inch audio input. I've used this as a spare TV, but > the screen has a strong green tint to it. It's heavy. This was typically used on the Apple ][ line. > Spammers: How can you be sure that I don't live in Washington State? Did something happen in Washington that I'd like to know about? I've seen mention to this twice now. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From donm at cts.com Wed Jun 17 14:39:36 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > It reads a set of instructions off the punch card, the gears or what have > > you interprets the pattern, and finally displays the output on the fabric. > > Sounds like a computer, in the broadest sense. The purists would say that > > it's not a computer unless it computes. I'm sure you could do math on it > > with a few simple modifications though. > > The line is always grey... > > > Didn't that have something to do with RADAR? Or was it cryptography? > > No, not radar. > > Radar, incidently, was just about the first use of digital electonics. > Although there was no computation at the digital level*, vacuum tube > flip-flops and counters were used in the timing circuits, as well in IFF > codes (The NRL even tried out a pre-1940 IFF box that used a real binary > word for the codes, with the hope that encryption would follow. It turned > out to just be a lab rat, however, and most of the war years saw the > horrible British MkIII system in use.). > > *The mechanical fire control computers, on the other hand, are truely > awesome devices. They would accept a bunch of real time input data (some > from the radars, some from the ships' gyros, some from the gun pointers > (sailors), and even internal data like how many times the gun was > fired (wear on the barrels)) - and output a bunch of data to set up the > shot. It worked well - incredibly well - 20 mile hits on the first shot > were not uncommon. It took YEARS before an electronic computer could rival > them. Ah yes! The (then) ubiquitous Mark 1A (One Able) fire control computer. Probably the only greater marvel were the fire controlmen who were able to keep them in operation when repairs were necessary. - don > Tons of metal, but built like a Swiss watch. Precisely! Pun intended. > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Wed Jun 17 14:47:09 1998 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction Message-ID: <01IYCHSJ62R68Y5VKY@AC.GRIN.EDU> > > 1. An Amdek color monitor, originally for use with Apples (I think). RCA > > video input, eighth-inch audio input. I've used this as a spare TV, but > > the screen has a strong green tint to it. It's heavy. > > This was typically used on the Apple ][ line. That's the way I remember it. There was one on the Apple ][+ in my second-grade classroom. > > Spammers: How can you be sure that I don't live in Washington State? > > Did something happen in Washington that I'd like to know about? I've seen > mention to this twice now. The Washington legislature passed anti-spam legislation, and the governor signed it. Here's one site a quick altavista search turned up: http://www.mcnichol.com/spam.htm -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu CMEL: Xavier CBEL: Xavier OH Spammers: How can you be sure that I don't live in Washington State? From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 14:51:17 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ah yes! The (then) ubiquitous Mark 1A (One Able) fire control computer. > Probably the only greater marvel were the fire controlmen who were able > to keep them in operation when repairs were necessary. Most of the computers were very hardy things and rarely broke down. When they did, these highly trained technicians would be called in to do the repairs, using all sorts of special tools (like really thin wrenches and other "not-at-Home-Depot" type things. William Donzelli william@ans.net From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jun 17 14:43:45 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: HP 9825B In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza's message of Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:33:06 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199806171943.MAA22202@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Yowza writes: > I recently acquired a 9825B, and I've got some questions: > > Can I get some docs from somebody?! I can't figure out how to program the > thing. Heh. I spent a couple of evenings trying to figure these things out (have two, an A and a B) with mixed results. HPL is definitely case sensitive. The little dinky manual that fits under the printer cover is not enough documentation to learn how to program it. That is all the docs I have though. > The keyboard on mine appears to be different than that of another 9825B on > the net. How many different 9825B variations were there? A pic of mine > juxtaposed with somebody else's is at: > http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/hp/ In spite of what the hpmuseum.org web pages say, there are at least two 9825Bs out there with the calculator-style keyboard. Mine's like that too. I'm not sure whether it's a 9825A->B field upgrade or what. > BTW, it seems like a great machine! I like the LED display. Did anybody > ever make a similar model, but with, say, an 80x24 character LED display? I doubt it...those little dot-matrix LEDs were expensive compared to a CRT. -Frank McConnell From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 15:00:22 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <19980617200022.19709.qmail@hotmail.com> The point is that it's possible to just "figure it out" by looking. If you don't know what a cam is for, by process of elimination, it's possible to eventually understand. On the other hand, if you're staring at a board of custom chips, you'll never figure it out without a computer to read the code in them. > >And integrate and differentiate! That is _really_ had to do if you do not >know the functions of the cams! The trig functions can also be completely >non-obvious! > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jfedorko at virtualadmin.com Wed Jun 17 15:00:00 1998 From: jfedorko at virtualadmin.com (Joel Fedorko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <01BD9A09.8E711240@hardhead.virtualadmin.com> If I remember right, those were the 1st computer manuals I ever got my hands on as a kid, it was incredible stuff and caught my interest. Might even still have a few in Mom's attic. -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli [SMTP:william@ans.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 3:51 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Re[2]: What is the first computer? > Ah yes! The (then) ubiquitous Mark 1A (One Able) fire control computer. > Probably the only greater marvel were the fire controlmen who were able > to keep them in operation when repairs were necessary. Most of the computers were very hardy things and rarely broke down. When they did, these highly trained technicians would be called in to do the repairs, using all sorts of special tools (like really thin wrenches and other "not-at-Home-Depot" type things. William Donzelli william@ans.net From g at kurico.com Wed Jun 17 16:07:07 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: MindSet Message-ID: Finally acquired a MindSet pc this weekend, way cool. So now I'm looking for anyone who has _anything_ for this unit (docs, specific software, carts, anything). Any useful links would be handy too. TIA George From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 15:50:24 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <13364550199.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980617112029.2efffa3e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617155024.2cb76eae@intellistar.net> No, just using them as targets. My cannon isn't big enough to do it the other way around. Joe At 10:06 AM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >[When I get out my cannon!] > >Do you mean shooting the PS/2 out of the cannon at someone, or >shooting the PS/2 with the cannon? >------- > From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 17 16:30:29 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: MindSet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, George Currie wrote: > Finally acquired a MindSet pc this weekend, way cool. So now I'm looking for > anyone who has _anything_ for this unit (docs, specific software, carts, > anything). Any useful links would be handy too. I have the stereo module and will trade it for the computer itself :-) http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw/comp/mindset.html -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 14:24:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <199806171421.JAA04465@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jun 17, 98 09:17:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1286 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980617/0d3a48a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 14:07:05 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <35873982.74B96FD7@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jun 16, 98 11:35:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1463 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980617/d12f6d09/attachment.ksh From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jun 17 18:04:19 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: MindSet In-Reply-To: <4789@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806172207.RAA06677@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> I took a gander at this page; is the mindset related to the MAD computer? If so, then I have a Floppydrive/powersupply "upper half", if you want it. Jeff > On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, George Currie wrote: > > > Finally acquired a MindSet pc this weekend, way cool. So now I'm looking for > > anyone who has _anything_ for this unit (docs, specific software, carts, > > anything). Any useful links would be handy too. > > I have the stereo module and will trade it for the computer itself :-) > > http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw/comp/mindset.html > > -- Doug > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 14:09:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <199806170401.AA22798@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 17, 98 00:01:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 318 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980617/a6c4f1de/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 14:41:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Old Alpha's (OT) In-Reply-To: from "Julian Richardson" at Jun 17, 98 03:43:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1034 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980617/588e3fc2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 14:46:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <9805178981.AA898130011@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jun 17, 98 05:30:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 633 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980617/c135e4de/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 17 17:15:26 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: MindSet In-Reply-To: <199806172207.RAA06677@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > I took a gander at this page; is the mindset related to the MAD > computer? If so, then I have a Floppydrive/powersupply "upper half", > if you want it. Unrelated, AFAIK. However, I have been in touch with a guy that has at least one of everything MAD made. For a BIG ad, see: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/mad/madman.jpg -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 17 17:38:44 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <199806172238.AA24204@world.std.com> References: <199806171734.TAA22558@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617164015.46a74e10@intellistar.net> Hi Doug, I also bid on it but I decided to let you have it since I have several of them already. At 01:33 PM 6/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >I recently acquired a 9825B, and I've got some questions: > >Can I get some docs from somebody?! I can't figure out how to program the >thing. It uses HPL. HP's version of APL and BASIC crossed. Assign variables like this "A <- 2" "B <- 2*A" etc. > >The keyboard on mine appears to be different than that of another 9825B on >the net. How many different 9825B variations were there? There's at least three vesions, the A, the B and a T. The latter ones had most of the optional ROMs built in. BTW I just bought another one, it has a big warning label on it not to use any plug in ROMs other than the Matrix and String (I think). It says that the others are already built in and if you add a plug-in one that you may damage the calculator. I have lots of docs for these and 6 other 9825s but this is the first time that I've seen that warning. There are also two very different keybaords used on them. The 9825 at the bottom of your picture has the full travel keyboard. They're more desireable. A pic of mine >juxtaposed with somebody else's is at: > http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/hp/ > >My "exectute" key is stuck. I haven't taken the machine appart yet, but >the keyboard mechanism isn't likely to match anything I have laying around >the house. Does anybody have any experience repairing this machine's >keyboard? Yeap! If it's only stuck you can usually pull them up and fix them. > >BTW, it seems like a great machine! I like the LED display. Did anybody >ever make a similar model, but with, say, an 80x24 character LED display? Yes, HP did except they used a CRT. The HP 9826 replaced the 9825. The 9826 was shaped like an oversized Apple computer and had an integrated keyboard, 5" monitor and 5 1/4" disk drive. You can see one on my webpage at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9000.htm". The 9826 used a 68000 CPU and could run HPL, BASIC or Pascal. All of the languages were USUALLY stored on disks and loaded from there but you could get the languages on plug-in ROM cards. You could have any or all languages on the same drive and/or in ROM on the same computer and you could select the one that you wanted the computer to load. I have a drive with all three languages on it and BASIC in ROM on one computer. The 9826 was also called a 9000 226 model and was part of the HP 9000 series 200 computer family that included the 9836 (aka 9000/236), 9836C, 9816 (aka 9000/216), 9000/220 and 9000/217. Even though the 9826 was designated as the replacement for the 9825 all the computers in that family are generaly compatible. The primary differences were the number of expansion slots, integrated vs. modular construction, overall size, number of built in drives and wheather they had monochrome or color displays. I have pictures on several of them on my website. Joe > >-- Doug > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 16:45:23 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: References: <199806171421.JAA04465@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617164523.46a7aa54@intellistar.net> At 11:52 AM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > >> > I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century >> > that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a >> > hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did >> > exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them today, >> > it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the form of >> > fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) >> >> I remember seeing a picture of this machine-- it was a link-belt of >> cards in a loop, with holes punched through them. They would pass by >> this 'reader' thingie which would 'read' the card with a matrix of >> metal rods poking through the holes. > >BTW, this was called the Jacquard Loom, named after the inventor, >Joseph-Marie Jacquard. The basic punch card idea led to Herman >Hollerith's census tabulator and was adopted by Charles Babbage in his >designs for his difference engine. And Hollerith's card were directly copied for use as punch cards for computers. The standard 80 column card is exactly the same size as those used by Hollerith, although Hollerith's cards used fewer holes. Joe From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 17 18:00:55 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980617133433.3c575da0@ricochet.net> At 12:11 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hire the handicapped. They don't get much work done, but they're fun >to watch. Call me a pissing-liberal, but I have to reply... (and yes, I understand it was most likely a joke, but for them what don't understand that...) (And keep in mind that especially on the internet, there is a very high probability that someone who reads your message may be physically challenged. (I know for a fact that at least one person on this list is.)) The "handicapped" are often more productive than the rest of society. Hawking is a good example. I can cite more if you want. So call me hyper-sensitive, but as one who drives around with a crip-card in the car most of the time... Actually, it is the people who seem physically fine that are often the most handicapped. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 17 18:00:59 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980617133658.3c57101c@ricochet.net> >It's a popular? misspelling of Xenix by people who can't read. If you >see Zenix on a resume, don't hire that person. Unless they were working for the company of the same name that made PC Mice. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Jun 17 18:01:02 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: old mac cards Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980617143537.3c570160@ricochet.net> At 12:59 AM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >Apple Macintosh IIci Cache Card (nubus) >Duh. I can make a good guess at this one. I'll offer $5 for this... When I run across 'em, I stick 'em in the IIci's in Rachel's classroom. Dunno if it does anything, but it sounds cool. >Unknown nubus board >Has markings DRO1 DEMO PC 10-184464- SER. NO. AA on component side. >Has several unmarked chips and empty sockets. There is also a good >deal of loose blue wire running hither and yon. On the end is a female >37 pin connector. Obviously this is a prototype. Is there any way >to find out for what? Well, Dx-37F is an external floppy connector for PC's. Coupled with the "PC" in "DEMO PC", I'd guess a hardware PC emulator. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From yowza at yowza.com Wed Jun 17 18:18:30 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: HP 9825B In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980617164015.46a74e10@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Joe wrote: > I also bid on it but I decided to let you have it since I have several of > them already. Nice of you. I would have done the same. Maybe :-) > There's at least three vesions, the A, the B and a T. The latter ones Mine is a B according the badge above the keyboard, but there's a sticker on the printer paper cubby door that says 9825T. It also says something about a plotter I don't have. > had most of the optional ROMs built in. BTW I just bought another one, it > has a big warning label on it not to use any plug in ROMs other than the > Matrix and String (I think). It says that the others are already built in I take it those are language extension ROMs. I've got Matrix. > and if you add a plug-in one that you may damage the calculator. I have > lots of docs for these and 6 other 9825s but this is the first time that > I've seen that warning. You have lots of docs? Can I take that as a subtle offer to copy useful docs? :-) > There are also two very different keybaords used on them. The 9825 at > the bottom of your picture has the full travel keyboard. They're more > desireable. More desirable to whom? I like the odd-ball full qwerty calc-style keyboard on mine much better than a normal keyboard! -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 17:29:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <19980617185020.10846.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 17, 98 11:50:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 742 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980617/dc62914d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 17:19:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <199806171820.AA28384@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 17, 98 02:20:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 430 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980617/ba6b6562/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 18:22:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <199806172238.AA24204@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 17, 98 06:38:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1236 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980618/50a20a30/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 18:28:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <199806172238.AA24276@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 17, 98 06:38:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1259 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980618/14d138b0/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 18:34:40 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Agreed. You can understand an ASR33 or similar by turning it by hand and > tripping linkages, etc. I did it years ago. Doing the same to a video > terminal, even a simple dumb terminal, is a lot harder (Done that as well!) I have actually done that with a chunk of one of these computers - the turn of one gear would cause a hundred others to move. > The other nice thing is that, with the possible exception of custom cams, > it's generally pretty obvious what broken parts should be like. And then > it's possible to make them without too much equipment. But a dead custom > chip is almost impossible to figure out, and hard to reproduce. That is very true - a stripped gear is a stripped gear is a stripped gear! Fixing one of these mechanical computers, however, is completely different from the familiar digital ones. In the latter, all problems (except video) are go/no go. In the former, problems manifest themselves in the outputs giving out-of-spec or erroneous results (except with a catasprophic failure!). William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 18:31:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: old mac cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980617143537.3c570160@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 17, 98 06:01:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 773 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980618/49ff96eb/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 18:19:13 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <8b5a749c.3588058a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617181913.46a7b3ee@intellistar.net> At 02:05 PM 6/17/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-17 13:08:49 EDT, Daniel Seagraves responded: > ><< [When I get out my cannon!] > > Do you mean shooting the PS/2 out of the cannon at someone, or > shooting the PS/2 with the cannon? >> > >hey, Hey,HEY! ps2 machines were announced in 1987 so they should be talked >about rather than destroyed. no matter what anyone says, they were state of >the art. certainly way ahead for their time. You MUST be kidding! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 18:21:40 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:38 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <199806171820.AA28384@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617182140.2e9f8756@intellistar.net> At 02:20 PM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: > ><>OK, I know what a track and a sector is, but what is the difference ><>between hardsector and softsector? >< >< Hard sectored disks have a sensor hole (or slot) for every sector. S > >17! There is a intermediate hole to signal the start of track (rotation). > >Allison > Yes, 1 plus 16 makes 17. The intermediate hole is called an index hole. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 19:34:58 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: HP 9825 configurrationss Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617193458.2e9fd2c0@intellistar.net> For anyone that cares, here is a list of the configurations of my HP 9825s. Notice there's some funny stuff here. Some are marked 9825A on the back but 9825B in the front next to the display. Several are marked 9825T under the paper cover. #4 says A on the back, B next to the display and T under the cover! You figure that one out! Many of them have a list, under the paper cover, of ROMs that are installed internally in the machine. The ROMs listed are not the same on every machine and they're listed in differnt orders. Also some machines have different amounts of memory. The box mentioned on some of them is a small box that extends out the back where the power cord plug in is located. It looks like a noise filter was added on to some of the machine. Some of these also have the operating system located in a plug ROM located in the side of the machine. Joe #1 9825A SN 1622A07600 also 1637A01402 on back OPT 002 23228 Bytes ROMS 98210A String - Advanced Progranmming 98211A Matrix 98214A 9826A Plotter- General I/O - Extended I/O Has OS ROM in the side 09825-87905 #2 9825B SN 1014A02207 no OS ROM Full Travel keyboard. Has box on the back. Inside paper cover it's marked " 9825T” and lists the following installed devices: 9872A Plotter, General I/O, Extended I/O, Advanced Programming, String, System Programming , Total Memory 61670 Bytes #3 9825A SN 1622A09285 SN 1725A00116 on back Has full travel keyboard and box on the back. has Opt 001 15036 Bytes ROMS 98210A String - Advanced Progranmming 98211A Matrix 98213A General I/O - Extended I/O 98216A Plotter- General I/O - Extended I/O Has OS ROM in the side 09825-87905 #4 9825A (but marked 9825B next to the display) SN 1014A02187 Full Travel keyboard and has the box on the back. Inside paper cover it's marked "9825T" and lists the following installed devices: 9872A Plotter, General I/O, Extended I/O, Advanced Programming, String, System Programming , Total Memory 61670 Bytes No OS ROM No plug in ROMs #5 9825A SN 1622A04464 has chicklet keys Inside paper cover it's marked " 9825A” and lists the following installed devices: 9872A Plotter, General I/O, Extended I/O, String, Advanced Programming, Matrix Opt 001 15036 bytes, Opt 002 23228 bytes. ROMS 98210A String - Advanced Progranmming 98211A Matrix 98216A 9872A Plotter- General I/O - Extended I/O (note: none of these ROMs should be in this machine!) HP 98034B HP-IB Interface HP 98034A HP-IB Interface HP 98032-Opt 85 16 bit I/O w/ HP 9885 Disc Interface ( Yes, it could operate two HP-IB interfaces. As long as they had different addresses.) #6 HP 9825A SN 1622A03718 Has cicklet keys. Option 001 15036 total bytes ROMS 98210A String - Advanced Progranmming 98217A 9885M Flexible Disk Drive 98216A 9872A Plotter- General I/O - Extended I/O Has OS ROM in the side 09825-87905 #7 9825A (but marked 9825B next to the display) Full Travel keyboard. Inside paper cover it's marked " 9825B” and lists the following installed devices: 9872A Plotter, General I/O, Extended I/O, Advanced Programming, String, System Programming , Total Memory 61670 Bytes ROMS 98211A Matrix Has large warning label on outside top warning the user not to install any ROMs other than the 98211 matrix ROM or the 98217A Flexible Disk Drive ROM. Installing any plug-in ROM that is already built into the calculator may cause damage the machine. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 17 19:44:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 17, 98 07:34:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1566 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980618/20739f73/attachment.ksh From peacock at simconv.com Wed Jun 17 20:03:22 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: OT: PS/2 cannon fodder Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E93C@NT486> ><< [When I get out my cannon!] > > Do you mean shooting the PS/2 out of the cannon at someone, or > shooting the PS/2 with the cannon? >> > > What a coincidence! I'm going to be shooting a cannon in 2 weeks at a party in the desert. It's a 75mm muzzleloader, 12 lb iron ore crusher balls for ammo. Now, anyone want to donate a PS/2 to discover what kind of damage a 3" cannonball can do? Jack Peacock From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 17 19:54:18 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items References: <01BD9985.C1B051E0@hardhead.virtualadmin.com> <3.0.3.32.19980617103703.00824920@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3588653A.46B54C07@rain.org> John Higginbotham wrote: > Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my > general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for > mostly > 80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, > Battlezone, > etc.) but will take just about anything. And what area might that be? I still have Clay Champ (Z80 based), Destruction Derby (pre-microprocessor days), Cheyenne (sp?, and don't recall the processor), Ms PacMan (Z80 IIRC), and a couple of Bally pins that use one of the Rockwell processors. Just picked up a Midway Seawolf last weekend and again, don't remember the processor. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 19:47:50 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: HP 9825B In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980617164015.46a74e10@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617194750.2cb7340a@intellistar.net> At 06:18 PM 6/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Joe wrote: > >> I also bid on it but I decided to let you have it since I have several of >> them already. > >Nice of you. I would have done the same. Maybe :-) Actually I think I bid on in it BEFORE you did. > >> There's at least three vesions, the A, the B and a T. The latter ones > >Mine is a B according the badge above the keyboard, but there's a sticker >on the printer paper cubby door that says 9825T. It also says something >about a plotter I don't have. Probably the 9862 or 9872. The are different ROMs for each. The plotters are the same except the 9872 can also digitize. I have a 9862. > > >I take it those are language extension ROMs. I've got Matrix. Yes, they add more functions similar to the plug in ROMs in the HP 41 or HP 71. > > >You have lots of docs? Can I take that as a subtle offer to copy >useful docs? :-) Er ahh no, they're are entirely too many of them! But I am going to thin them out as soon as I have time. > >> There are also two very different keybaords used on them. The 9825 at >> the bottom of your picture has the full travel keyboard. They're more >> desireable. > >More desirable to whom? To everyone but you I guess! >I like the odd-ball full qwerty calc-style >keyboard on mine much better than a normal keyboard! > Then you should be happy! I just posted a list of the configurations of my 9825s. About half of mine have the full travel keys. Joe >-- Doug > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 19:52:24 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: References: <199806172238.AA24276@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617195224.2d17d2ee@intellistar.net> At 12:28 AM 6/18/98 +0100, you wrote: > > >Does anyone know a source of hard-sectored 5.25" disks (10 sector ones in >particular). I guess they're no longer made, alas. I have some. I think they're 10 sector. I'll have to look. I have thought about >making up a jig, dismantling a soft-sectored disk, punching the extra >holes and putting the disk back in the jacket. Problem is resealing the >edge of the jacket which I've opened. Tape works well! Joe > >-tony > > From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jun 17 21:12:27 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <4814@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806180115.UAA07191@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > > You've never had a marginal timing problem, or a pattern-related data > problem? I am suprised. > > Put it this way. I had a 1793 that, when it was warm, would not gerenrate > a data request bit if (I think) the last 2 bytes loaded were both FF. > Something totally crazy like that. Took a long time (and a lot of > corrupted disks) to track that one down. > > Ditto for marginal timing that fixes itself when the machine is cold, or > hot, or when you wave your hands over the CPU board, or whatever. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tony, Tony, Tony, don't you know? That's a free added option that's built into many kinds of electronic equipment! It's called the TPD (tm). A.k.a., the "Technician Proximity Detector". There's a ton of them installed out there. Looks like one innovation that goes back even to Babbage's time . . . . Jeff > > -tony > > > > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 20:33:53 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: old mac cards Message-ID: <19980618013353.5435.qmail@hotmail.com> My thoughts exactly. Look at the card. Is there an intel or cyrix microprocessor on the board? Another hint is four identical square chips (the chipset). >>Duh. I can make a good guess at this one. > >I'll offer $5 for this... When I run across 'em, I stick 'em in the IIci's >in Rachel's classroom. Dunno if it does anything, but it sounds cool. > >>Unknown nubus board >>Has markings DRO1 DEMO PC 10-184464- SER. NO. AA on component side. >>Has several unmarked chips and empty sockets. There is also a good >>deal of loose blue wire running hither and yon. On the end is a female >>37 pin connector. Obviously this is a prototype. Is there any way >>to find out for what? > >Well, Dx-37F is an external floppy connector for PC's. Coupled with the >"PC" in "DEMO PC", I'd guess a hardware PC emulator. > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 17 20:42:01 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <19980618014201.9892.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, they had an MCA bus- clearly superior! In fact, they were the closest anyone had ever come to PnP on a Wintel before USB and PCI. Except, it worked much more reliably. And then, there was the issue of quality of case and PCB... Let's put it this way... the PS/2s were actually DESIGNED, unlike many clones, which were cheap junk. And even the ISA machines were quite a bit nicer... >> >>hey, Hey,HEY! ps2 machines were announced in 1987 so they should be talked >>about rather than destroyed. no matter what anyone says, they were state of >>the art. certainly way ahead for their time. > > You MUST be kidding! > > Joe > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Wed Jun 17 20:44:23 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: old mac cards In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Jun 17, 98 06:39:11 am Message-ID: <199806180144.VAA21062@shell.monmouth.com> > > > > On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Paul E Coad wrote: > > > > > As part of a deal I got a small pile of Mac nubus cards. My goal is > > to identify them and find them new homes before I need to get them > > shots, fixed, or they start reproducing in my closet like the 1200 bps > > modem cards seem to be doing. > > > > Farallon PhoneNET Card > > It has AUI and 10BaseT connectors. This one looks like an ethernet card. > > Is it? It's basically an Appletalk type interface. Fast, serial over phone wire. > > Hah! Ya, Farallon had these nifty packages to let you integrate PC's/Mac's > in the same network. I once worked on one such network that used a Mac II > as the file server. Users with PC laptops who scanned tiff images in the > field had to upload to it. If I remember right, it was ~3 minutes to the > meg on the transfer. You can't believe how happy everyone was when I > replaced that Mac II with a 66mhz 486 running NT 3.51.... > > Yeah, but my Mac IIfx I rescued runs pretty close to a 486/25 in usability... and probably a lot better than the NT3.51 in terms of crashes. I'm not a Windows hater... but NT ran like a pig on the 486/66's I ran. Actually, the mac with ethernet performs pretty well with TCP/IP. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 17 20:52:14 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: In a message dated 98-06-17 20:42:34 EDT, you write: << >hey, Hey,HEY! ps2 machines were announced in 1987 so they should be talked >about rather than destroyed. no matter what anyone says, they were state of >the art. certainly way ahead for their time. You MUST be kidding! Joe >> actually, i'm not. they WERE ahead of their time. expensive and well designed. the first pc type machine with level sensitive interrupts. they can be worked on and disassembled without tools, extensive grounding on the circuits lowered emissions, real plug and play that worked, some machines had IML partition and scsi, hi speed uarts, autoconfig, sharing IRQ's, bi- directional lpt port, the standard keyboard and mouse we use today, so on and so forth. i've got a model 77 with builtin scsi that i know will outlast any other pc of its era. david From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jun 17 21:04:27 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <19980617145002.24870.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199806180204.MAA17031@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 07:50 AM 17-06-98 -0700, Max Eskin wrote: >What was so "interesting" about it? Who made it, why, and when? >> >>>Don't forget Eunice! OK, maybe it's better that you forget. >> >>Sounds of VMS administrator running screaming around the office. I >thought >>I'd got over that "interesting" piece of software, but clearly not :-) Well there were a number of issues involved with running Eunice (which was Unix on top of VMS). The first problem was that of speed. We used to run Eunice on a VAX-11/785 which (for it's time) was a fast VAX, but then layering all of Unix on top meant for a slightly slow Unix. Then there was file system problems - the VMS file system and the Unix file system are slightly different :-) Finally compatibility - it was "hard/impossible/requires several miracles/harder than that" to get many of the programs that our users wanted to run. Eventually we purchased a uVAX-11 running Ultrix-32 and let the users loose in the Unix playpen. Of course, in those days we didn't believe that Unix was anything more than something that Computer Science people used. It wasn't VMS so we weren't really interested in supporting it, or bothering to learn enough to make it work better than it did. Imagine, 10 years later and we're about to order two very large Unix systems for administrative processing. (Two DEC 8400s with 4CPUs and 6Gb of memory each). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From william at ans.net Wed Jun 17 21:08:03 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You've never had a marginal timing problem, or a pattern-related data > problem? I am suprised. Well, not exactly the point I was trying to get across... Digital computers work or they do not. Sure, there are things like intermittent timing problems, but when the fault doesn't exist, the problem doesn't exist. When the timing problem is there, the circuit does not work. It may flap every second, but its discrete. An analog (mechanical or electronic) machine might be broken, but still function with no apparent bad output. Calibration could go off, or hysteresis might start acting up. Analog machines operate with acceptable tolerances and slops*, and are accounted for during normal operation and maintenance. These issues do not show up in digital machines. * I suppose the closest one could come to "slop" in digital electronics is in floating point units, and maybe performance of networks. William Donzelli william@ans.net From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jun 17 21:10:36 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <13364546956.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <199806170611.QAA11199@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199806180210.MAA16620@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:49 AM 17-06-98 -0700, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >{Eunice was UNIX on top of VMS] > >What? That's gross! >Do you mean a binary interpreter, shells and the like, or just >include files and libraries for cross-compilation? >Or did they run a UNIX kernel in user space? >Howabouts did THAT work? It sounds fairly hairy... As the "resident Eunice expert" :-) I'll try to remember what you got.... It was basically a shared Unix kernel in user space. If your account was set up properly, you would log into your VMS account and the net result was a csh prompt. From here, you could play in Unix land (albeit slowly). I seem to recall that there was integration into VMS land too, so, for example, running finger in Eunice would give a list of all users logged into the machine. It's been a while (not long enough really) so I might be recalling things badly. I'm hopeful that we've thrown away the tapes/manuals/etc but I'll take a look just in case... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 17 21:16:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: TI99: IDE vs. SCSI (for TI & Geneve) Message-ID: <199806180216.AA06583@world.std.com> < Actually, you have one thing incorrect... IDE IS speed dependent. SCSI <> Actually the NS* contrller and the apple one are very close in that the <> are minimalist. The NS controller can read media without index/sector < This is one for the, "You can't do squat with those dumb old computers" file... I picked up a book at a thrift today, called, NEW HORIZONS IN AMATEUR ASTRONOMY by Grant Fjermedal (C) 1989. Before I got out of the first chapter I read this excellent little tidbit: "...David Gedalia, of California's San Fernando Valley, attracted a lot of attention by day and night with his 10-inch reflector on a servo-controlled Dobsonian mount. This was set up near the back of his pickup truck on the upper field, and on the tailgate of the truck was a simple 64K Atari 800 computer running a star finding program that Gedalia had written himself. He had all the objects from Messier (the classic catalog of 104 prominent galaxies, nebulae, and other objects identified in the late 1700s) and several hundred other objects from the more voluminous New General Catalog. It was so nice at night to see him enter a Messier number, hit "Return" and listen to the purr of the servos as they positioned the object right in the center of the eyepiece field..." From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Jun 17 21:23:22 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980617212322.2ecfad4a@intellistar.net> At 09:52 PM 6/17/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-17 20:42:34 EDT, you write: > ><< >hey, Hey,HEY! ps2 machines were announced in 1987 so they should be >talked > >about rather than destroyed. no matter what anyone says, they were state of > >the art. certainly way ahead for their time. > > You MUST be kidding! > > Joe >> > >actually, i'm not. they WERE ahead of their time. expensive Yes, I agree with that! and well >designed. Well designed for cheap manufacturing! the first pc type machine with level sensitive interrupts. they can >be worked on and disassembled without tools, You've never taken apart a model 35 have you? extensive grounding on the >circuits lowered emissions, real plug and play that worked, It doesn't work on my 80! some machines had >IML partition and scsi, hi speed uarts, autoconfig, sharing IRQ's, bi- >directional lpt port, Nearly all PCs have had bidirestional ports since the beginning. In fact, the only ones that didn't have it from the beginning were IBMs. I spent two years installing software with Lap-Link and a null MODEM (printer?) cable and I KNOW! the standard keyboard and mouse we use today, I don't! My PC uses the standard DIN and DB-9 connectors. The biggest reason that the PS-2 connectors are used is because of their small size and the limited room on lap tops. so on and >so forth. i've got a model 77 with builtin scsi that i know will outlast any >other pc of its era. I have a model 80 with built in SCSI that won't survive the next trash pick up! My neighbor just pitched his model 70. I didn't bother to take it out of the trash! I have a LOT of PCs that are a lot older than any PS-2 ever made! Altair -1976, IBM 5100 - 1977, HP 9100 - 1968, lots of HP 9815s, HP 9825s and HP 85s from the '70s. You left out the idiotic micro-channel bus! Joe > >david > From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 17 21:46:23 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? References: <3.0.16.19980617133433.3c575da0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <35887F7F.737876EB@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 12:11 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Hire the handicapped. They don't get much work done, but they're fun > >to watch. > > Call me a pissing-liberal, but I have to reply... (and yes, I understand > it was most likely a joke, but for them what don't understand that...) (And > keep in mind that especially on the internet, there is a very high > probability that someone who reads your message may be physically > challenged. (I know for a fact that at least one person on this list is.)) > > The "handicapped" are often more productive than the rest of society. > Hawking is a good example. I can cite more if you want. > > So call me hyper-sensitive, but as one who drives around with a crip-card > in the car most of the time... > > Actually, it is the people who seem physically fine that are often the most > handicapped. Rog, my wife is a nurse whose main specialty is home care of quads and ventilator patients -- and ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease) is not a stranger to me. I've met Stephen Hawking. He still amazes me, not just the way he does maths but that he was diagnosed with ALS in 1966 and has now lived over thirty years further with a condition that averages less than six years from diagnosis to mortality. The man gave us quantum black holes, then he told us why they weren't around anymore. Yes, I've got his whole recent PBS series on tape. Lisa has sort of semi-retired from nursing because she got tired of taking care of patients who (on schedule) died on her. And our car also has a handicapped card, as Lisa's back is _severely_ screwed up from taking care of the occasional 400-lb quad plus we regularly transport her father who finally took the 100% disability retirement from the USAF in 1957 that he was granted by the Navy in 1945. (Yeah, he came home for a while in '45. He got bored so he signed up with the OSS and hunted "ex"-Nazis until the OSS had its brains removed and became the CIA, so he joined the USAF and wound up spending 18 months as a guest of the PRC at a resort they had in Manchuria after a plane he was in made an unscheduled landing during the Korean unpleasantness). (One of these days, I've got to put up a _real_ web page including scans of his DD-214). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From mor at crl.com Wed Jun 17 20:48:13 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction References: <01IYCHSJ62R68Y5VKY@AC.GRIN.EDU> Message-ID: <358871DD.5C34E782@crl.com> Benjamin M Coakley wrote: > The Washington legislature passed anti-spam legislation, and the governor > signed it. Here's one site a quick altavista search turned up: > > http://www.mcnichol.com/spam.htm BTW, in case in anyone on the list hasn't heard, Jim Nitchals passed away about a week and a half ago. He was an awesome game programmer from back in the early Apple II days and continued to code 6502 while assisting many struggling game programmers like myself in various internet newsgroups and mailing lists. Most recently, he was an effective voice in the anti-spam campaign. We lost a really good person. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 17 21:45:24 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) Message-ID: <93ed6e8b.35887f45@aol.com> In a message dated 98-06-17 22:37:02 EDT, you write: << I have a model 80 with built in SCSI that won't survive the next trash pick up! My neighbor just pitched his model 70. I didn't bother to take it out of the trash! I have a LOT of PCs that are a lot older than any PS-2 ever made! Altair -1976, IBM 5100 - 1977, HP 9100 - 1968, lots of HP 9815s, HP 9825s and HP 85s from the '70s. You left out the idiotic micro-channel bus! Joe >> well, so you dont like mca. that's fine, but the 8580 didnt come with scsi built in. the hard drive in it was ESDI. the premium series had built in scsi on the planar. let me correct myself in saying that my model 77 will certainly outlast any IBM-PC compatible machine of its era. please note that i am comparing MCA to ISA here. im not disparaging any other type. david From ampage at geocities.com Wed Jun 17 21:45:04 1998 From: ampage at geocities.com (Josh Spatz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Pen Windows 2.0 References: <3.0.3.32.19980615122343.0081e2a0@netpath.net> <3.0.3.32.19980615145346.00824d80@netpath.net> Message-ID: <35887F30.2756F455@geocities.com> Geoworks is no longer developing PC-GEOS, but it was licensed by a company called New Deal, which has a downloadable version of New Deal Office (the new name for PC-Geos) on their website at http://www.newdealinc.com John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 01:41 PM 6/15/98 -0500, you wrote: > >On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > > > >> Computer: GRiDPad 1912 (V20/2mb/20mb HD/640x400x2 6300 CGA mode > > > >CGA is 640x200. If you install GEOS, for example, you'll want to use the > >AT&T graphics driver. > > Right. The manual states that 640x400x2 is a "tweaked" CGA mode. > > >IIRC, Pen Windows 1.0 was for Windows 3.x, and Pen Windows 2.0 was for > >Windows 95. GEOS is by far your best bet if you want to burden the thing > >with a GUI. > > I just tried to run it on my desktop. First question it askes was "What > 22xx series of GRiDPad are you installing to?" Back to the drawing board. I > doubt it'll work with the old 1912. If I could find GEOS, I'd install it. > Only version I have is for the C-64. > > ________________________________________ > john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - > webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - > "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - > enemy other people to shoot at." - From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 17 22:03:25 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... References: <3.0.16.19980617133658.3c57101c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3588837D.E4E3497E@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > >It's a popular? misspelling of Xenix by people who can't read. If you > >see Zenix on a resume, don't hire that person. > > Unless they were working for the company of the same name that made PC Mice. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ I had one. Those mice suck rocks. In fact, that's the mouse I had when I first invoked X under Linux. (Well, the mouse only cost $8, including Win 3.1 at a fair about 1992). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jun 17 22:41:09 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Another Atari Achievement... In-Reply-To: <35886FEF.42E48CF0@crl.com> Message-ID: <199806180341.NAA17636@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 06:39 PM 17-06-98 -0700, Greg Troutman wrote: >>From the photos I'd like to point out that he was actually using an >800XL. Anyway the book is highly recommended not only for the Atari >mention, but more so for it's majestic presentation of numerous >individuals who pursue science purely for the love of it. Indeedy. I was working with one of our academics yesterday (he's a mathematician) and he actually uses computers to do things, whereas I tend to use computers as computers - they don't really have to do too much other than e-mail, news and WinAMP... The other point on this example is that you can do lots of real interesting stuff without needing that 600MHz Alpha and 2Gb of memory, though it's fun to have a system like that too.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 17 23:05:08 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? References: <3.0.3.32.19980617124906.0081d480@netpath.net> Message-ID: <358891F4.CABB3536@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 07:36 PM 6/17/98 +0300, you wrote: > > >Well, I'd give computer credit to Babage's machine, ca. 1896, IIRC. He is, > >after all the one who coined the phrase "computer." > > There's a very good book out by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling called > "The Difference Engine". It takes place in the 1800's, a 19th century > Europe that is vastly different from our version. Sort of like Silicon > Valley, circa 1855. All deriving from Babbage's first machine, which, in > the book, he invented at a quite early age. There's an even better book, _The Country of the Blind_ by Michael J. Flynn, which uses the concept _not incompatible with history so far_ that the Analytical Engine worked and was co-opted by a conspiracy that ever since the 1840s has used them to analyze and redirect the progress of societies. One of the first decisions was the employment of John Wilkes Booth. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 17 23:09:47 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? References: <199806171820.AA28272@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3588930B.EA9FA07F@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > The correct catagory is data processing. Specifics are that it's a > predecessor to current CNC! > > Allison And a Jacquard system doesn't have to worry about all this damned Y2K nonsense, either. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 17 23:22:23 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? References: Message-ID: <358895FF.6A4CBFC2@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The other nice thing is that, with the possible exception of custom cams, > > > it's generally pretty obvious what broken parts should be like. And then > > > it's possible to make them without too much equipment. But a dead custom > > > chip is almost impossible to figure out, and hard to reproduce. > > > > That is very true - a stripped gear is a stripped gear is a stripped gear! > > Yes, and you know the diameter (since you have the stripped one) and the > tooth pitch (from whatever it meshes with. So you can either work out the > number of teeth, or maybe even see the remains of the teeth on the > stripped one. > > After that, all you need is a milling machine and a dividing head. Not > that imposible to get (a lot easier than an IC fab line). Of course, manufacturing parts for mechanical computers is now made so much easier with silicon-driven machine tools. We now have the technology to _really_ build an Analytical Engine, one that would perform as Babbage hoped. Not as fast as (say) an HP-65, but it would work. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 17 23:27:16 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? References: <199806171421.JAA04465@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> <3.0.1.16.19980617164523.46a7aa54@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <35889724.85EBE181@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > > At 11:52 AM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: > >On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > >> > I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century > >> > that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a > >> > hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did > >> > exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them > today, > >> > it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the form of > >> > fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) > >> > >> I remember seeing a picture of this machine-- it was a link-belt of > >> cards in a loop, with holes punched through them. They would pass by > >> this 'reader' thingie which would 'read' the card with a matrix of > >> metal rods poking through the holes. > > > >BTW, this was called the Jacquard Loom, named after the inventor, > >Joseph-Marie Jacquard. The basic punch card idea led to Herman > >Hollerith's census tabulator and was adopted by Charles Babbage in his > >designs for his difference engine. > > And Hollerith's card were directly copied for use as punch cards for > computers. The standard 80 column card is exactly the same size as those > used by Hollerith, although Hollerith's cards used fewer holes. And after a couple of mergers, the Hollerith Tabulating Machine Company _is_ IBM. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From william at ans.net Thu Jun 18 00:08:47 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980617212322.2ecfad4a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > You left out the idiotic micro-channel bus! Actually, MCA is quite a nice bus. For its time, it was fast, and feature rich. Most of the Internet (NSFnet) ran on MCA based RS/6000s, each router having 1 FDDI card, maybe 2 or 3 HSSI cards, and an ethernet card. Sure, back in 1995 net traffic is nothing like todays, but the above configuration can and did throw an awful lot of data on those busses! William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at wco.com Thu Jun 18 02:03:36 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980617212322.2ecfad4a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: FYI, computer cock wars are off-topic too. Thanks! On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Joe wrote: > At 09:52 PM 6/17/98 EDT, you wrote: > >In a message dated 98-06-17 20:42:34 EDT, you write: > > > ><< >hey, Hey,HEY! ps2 machines were announced in 1987 so they should be > >talked > > >about rather than destroyed. no matter what anyone says, they were state of > > >the art. certainly way ahead for their time. > > > > You MUST be kidding! > > > > Joe >> > > > >actually, i'm not. they WERE ahead of their time. expensive > > Yes, I agree with that! > > and well > >designed. > > Well designed for cheap manufacturing! > > the first pc type machine with level sensitive interrupts. they can > >be worked on and disassembled without tools, > > You've never taken apart a model 35 have you? > > extensive grounding on the > >circuits lowered emissions, real plug and play that worked, > > It doesn't work on my 80! > > some machines had > >IML partition and scsi, hi speed uarts, autoconfig, sharing IRQ's, bi- > >directional lpt port, > > Nearly all PCs have had bidirestional ports since the beginning. In fact, > the only ones that didn't have it from the beginning were IBMs. I spent two > years installing software with Lap-Link and a null MODEM (printer?) cable > and I KNOW! > > the standard keyboard and mouse we use today, > > I don't! My PC uses the standard DIN and DB-9 connectors. The biggest > reason that the PS-2 connectors are used is because of their small size and > the limited room on lap tops. > > so on and > >so forth. i've got a model 77 with builtin scsi that i know will outlast any > >other pc of its era. > > I have a model 80 with built in SCSI that won't survive the next trash > pick up! My neighbor just pitched his model 70. I didn't bother to take > it out of the trash! I have a LOT of PCs that are a lot older than any PS-2 > ever made! Altair -1976, IBM 5100 - 1977, HP 9100 - 1968, lots of HP > 9815s, HP 9825s and HP 85s from the '70s. > > You left out the idiotic micro-channel bus! > > Joe > > > >david > > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From rax at warbaby.com Thu Jun 18 03:27:53 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <001801bd99ed$a5ab2e80$206fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: On a related note - I've been researching the history of computing for a book that I'm working on. At this point, I've got a pretty complete (I think) timeline. As soon as I can figure out (or some kind soul explains) how I can convert a MS Word (5.1 - I hate the later versions) table into an HTML table (the timeline runs about 10,000 words and I can't face the thought of re-typing it), I'll post it on my Web site for list members' general edification and enlightenment, as well as criticisms, corrections, and nit-picking. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From red at bears.org Thu Jun 18 02:28:05 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Rax wrote: > HTML table (the timeline runs about 10,000 words and I can't face the > thought of re-typing it), I'll post it on my Web site for list members' > general edification and enlightenment, as well as criticisms, corrections, > and nit-picking. HTML.. table? HTML table? Do you have any idea how long it would take render a table of that size in Omniweb? Ugh. Why not use the list tags, like a sensible person? Using tables as a method of formatting HTML is unforgivable. (: ok r. From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 18 02:50:49 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: HP 9825 configurrationss In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980617193458.2e9fd2c0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Joe wrote: > For anyone that cares, here is a list of the configurations of my HP > 9825s. Notice there's some funny stuff here. Some are marked 9825A on the > back but 9825B in the front next to the display. Several are marked 9825T > under the paper cover. #4 says A on the back, B next to the display and T > under the cover! You figure that one out! Bastards! I just opened mine up (it's pretty inside) and it's a bastard too. AFAICT, it started life as a 9825A in 1979 and then got upgraded to a B/T sometime in 1982 or later. It has the long channel for the system ROM you described, but the channel is plugged, and I assume one of the newer boards in the stack replaces that ROM. BTW, mine seems pretty maxed out: 9872A plotter, general I/O, extended I/O, adv. programming, string, system programming (sounds cool), total memory 61670 (+ matrix cart). Fixing my stuck "execute" key looks like it'll be a bastard too. It's not stuck, the "snap" mechanism appears to be simply gone (not easily explained since the keyboard appears to be a tight sandwich). I hope that key isn't important in the big scheme of things, but I have a nagging suspicion that it's needed to program. BTW, one of the prettier chips looks like it's either the keyboard controller or a ROM: a 40-pin white ceramic number labeled H1818 2508 6672. -- Doug From pcoad at wco.com Thu Jun 18 02:58:54 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: old mac cards In-Reply-To: <19980618013353.5435.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the help identifying the boards. (Edited for clarity) I wrote: > >>Unknown nubus board > >>Has markings DRO1 DEMO PC 10-184464- SER. NO. AA on component side. > >>Has several unmarked chips and empty sockets. There is also a good > >>deal of loose blue wire running hither and yon. On the end is a > female > >>37 pin connector. Obviously this is a prototype. Is there any way > >>to find out for what? > > Uncle Roger wrote: > >Well, Dx-37F is an external floppy connector for PC's. Coupled with > the > >"PC" in "DEMO PC", I'd guess a hardware PC emulator. > > Max Eskin wrote: > > My thoughts exactly. Look at the card. Is there an intel or cyrix > microprocessor on the board? Another hint is four identical square > chips (the chipset). Okay. There is not a single Intel chip on the board. There are no Cyrix, Chips, nor any other obvious CPU type ICs on the board. There appears to be some TTL, a PAL, a GAL, and a few empty sockets. Here is what I can identify: Cypress 2 ICs, one I believe is a PAL since it has PALC22V10 printed on it. The other has CY7C245. Also there are 5 cards with 8 ICs (4 to a side). of the 8 7 are unmarked and the 8th has CYM1441PZ printed on it. Hitachi 4 chips all 74FCT534M National 1 IC 74F525QC Bunches of 74FCT chips of various flavors and breeds. Lattice GAL16V8B-7LP Unidentified: 1 square, unmarked surface mount IC with 104 pins. 2 ICs labled Bl (with the Bl underlined) 898-5 and R220/330. Also at the edge of the chip there is the number 8805. 1 IC AD565AJD with gold colored top. There are two empty square 76 pin sockets. There are two empty rectangular 26 pin sockets. (ROM sockets?) There are 7 sockets .5in on the inside edges. All are empty except for one which contains the previously mentioned National IC. This is likely not too helpful. It is appears to be missing some parts. If anyone is interested, make me an offer. Otherwise it gets installed in /dev/null on Sunday. Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From gim at hitec-uk.com Thu Jun 18 03:14:29 1998 From: gim at hitec-uk.com (gim@hitec-uk.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? (OT: HTML Rendering/Omniweb Message-ID: <80256627.002C6AB0.00@hitec-uk.com> First off, sorry is this comes through as unreadable garbage, I'm @ work, so I've got to use Lotus notes.... :( Wasn't Omniweb the Web browsers for NeXT machines? Was it ever released on other platforms? If my memory serves me correctly, when MS/NS were having they're best viewed on icon war, Omniweb had an icon with the slogan, "Not to shabby when viewed with OmniWeb". Anyway, I digress, if you import your file into a newer version of word, then save as,with the file type HTML Alternately, there was a plug in released by MS called internet assistant. I'm not sure which versions of word it runs on, check their website for info. Sorry for wandering OT. Grant. "R. Stricklin (kjaeros)" on 06/18/98 08:28:05 AM Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" cc: Subject: Re: What is the first computer? On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Rax wrote: > HTML table (the timeline runs about 10,000 words and I can't face the > thought of re-typing it), I'll post it on my Web site for list members' > general edification and enlightenment, as well as criticisms, corrections, > and nit-picking. HTML.. table? HTML table? Do you have any idea how long it would take render a table of that size in Omniweb? Ugh. Why not use the list tags, like a sensible person? Using tables as a method of formatting HTML is unforgivable. (: ok r. From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 18 03:26:17 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Rax wrote: > On a related note - I've been researching the history of computing for a > book that I'm working on. At this point, I've got a pretty complete (I > think) timeline. As soon as I can figure out (or some kind soul explains) > how I can convert a MS Word (5.1 - I hate the later versions) table into an > HTML table (the timeline runs about 10,000 words and I can't face the > thought of re-typing it), I'll post it on my Web site for list members' > general edification and enlightenment, as well as criticisms, corrections, > and nit-picking. Those later versions of Word you hate will auto-convert to HTML, but I seem to recall that Microsoft's "internet assistant for word" (or some such) came out around the 5.x timeframe. As somebody pointed out, one huge table is a Bad Thing, but it should be trivial to break it up into multiple tables once you've HTMLized it. -- Doug From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 18 03:28:52 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Re[2]: What is the first computer?" (Jun 18, 1:44) References: Message-ID: <9806180928.ZM4723@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 18, 1:44, Tony Duell wrote: > You've never had a marginal timing problem, or a pattern-related data > problem? I am suprised. > > Put it this way. I had a 1793 that, when it was warm, would not gerenrate > a data request bit if (I think) the last 2 bytes loaded were both FF. > Something totally crazy like that. Took a long time (and a lot of > corrupted disks) to track that one down. > > Ditto for marginal timing that fixes itself when the machine is cold, or > hot, or when you wave your hands over the CPU board, or whatever. My two favourites are both from BBC Micros: 1) a manufacturing fault: a particular machine would work from cold, but fail after about half a minute. It turned out that the IC used to select bank-switched ROMs had been inserted with one pin bent under the chip. It actually looked like it was properly soldered from the top side of the board, and impossible to tell from the underside, because the manufacturing process had skimmed all the protruding pins virtually flush with the board (onme particular subcontractor sometimes skimmed too close and damaged the tracks, but that's another story). Anyway, when it was cold, the bent pin touched the solder in the hole. When it warmed up even slightly, the other pins apparently expanded just enough to raise the IC and the bent pin lost contact. 2) a design fault: the original BBC used a ULA for video timing, and once it was in production, it was quickly found that many would start to give timing errors (manifested as twinkling characters) when they got warm. ULAs do run fairly warm, but they aren't supposed to need heatsinks, so this was a bit puzzling. It turned out that some gates in a chain had been set up as open-collector when they should have had pullups; when cold, the characteristics were such that the output got to a reasonable level quickly enough for the input it was driving, but when the IC was hot the level changed too slowly. As John Coll (who ran the original training courses) put it, if you could drill a hole in the top of the IC, and connect a pullup resistor to the correct gate with a microprobe, you wouldn't need the heatsink. Later versions of the custom chip were indeed provided as "heatsinkless". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jun 18 04:48:16 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Pen Windows 2.0 Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980618054317.006b7bc4@netpath.net> Which needs at least a 286 and 2mb to run. This is a V20 here. I need the older version of GeoWorks. At 10:45 PM 6/17/98 -0400, Josh Spatz wrote: >Geoworks is no longer developing PC-GEOS, but it was licensed by a >company called New Deal, which has a downloadable version of New Deal >Office (the new name for PC-Geos) on their website at >http://www.newdealinc.com - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From chrish at knet.kootenay.net Thu Jun 18 05:42:57 1998 From: chrish at knet.kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980617133433.3c575da0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980618034257.006a36d4@vader.kootenay.net> At 06:00 PM 17/06/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 12:11 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >>Hire the handicapped. They don't get much work done, but they're fun >>to watch. > >Call me a pissing-liberal, but I have to reply... (and yes, I understand >it was most likely a joke, but for them what don't understand that...) (And >keep in mind that especially on the internet, there is a very high >probability that someone who reads your message may be physically >challenged. (I know for a fact that at least one person on this list is.)) > I'm one of the guys that are phisically disABLED on the list. I didn't see this persons original post im glad I didn't. thanx uncle Roger for putting in your 2 cents worth Chris Halarewich >The "handicapped" are often more productive than the rest of society. >Hawking is a good example. I can cite more if you want. > >So call me hyper-sensitive, but as one who drives around with a crip-card >in the car most of the time... > >Actually, it is the people who seem physically fine that are often the most >handicapped. > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > > From bobstek at ix13.ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 18 09:06:54 1998 From: bobstek at ix13.ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806181107.GAA08954@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com> BTW, disgruntled French factory weavers who realized the threat of automated Jacquard looms to their skilled jobs were known to throw their wooden shoes, sabots, into the mechanical workings in order to express their displeasure at being replaced by a machine. Hence the the coining of a new word - sabotage. From hansp at digiweb.com Thu Jun 18 06:19:36 1998 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? References: <3.0.3.32.19980617094114.00824780@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3588F7C8.173D5358@digiweb.com> > >2) First human made computer (program given for input, so abbacus doesn't > >count, output given) > > I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century > that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a > hole punch reader, a specially shaped gear, or other apparatus. It did > exist though. Although most definitely not a computer as we see them today, > it did take a program for input, process it, and output it in the form of > fabric. (I think this was right before CGA was made a standard...) The Jacquard loom. It is always cited as the precursor of punched cards. We have one of these in our storage (though it does not actually belong to us). Its a beautiful piece of machinery. It would be wonderful to see it in action. > >5) First digital computer > > Didn't someone just post a link about the "first digital computer" turning > 50 years old? It was on the BBC website, I believe. Indeed the Manchester baby machine, the first electronic machine to execute a program from memory. June 21 1948. The machine has been rebuilt and is on display at the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester. > >9) First computer to use a floppy disk (any kind of floppy) Probably some IBM 360, wasn't the floppy originally designed to do IPL on some of these systems? Regards, _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu Jun 18 07:16:51 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980617114750.2fefcfb4@intellistar.net> References: <01IYC8YHXFGY8Y5OFV@AC.GRIN.EDU> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980618081651.006905f0@mail.wincom.net> At 11:47 AM 6/17/98, you wrote: >At 10:33 AM 6/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >>> My mom got fed up by the amount of junk I have in my room, so I will >>> start to get rid of it (something I'd been planning to do). >> >>My girlfriend's getting fed up by the amount of junk I have in our >>apartment, so I'm trying to get rid of some of it, too. Shipping costs >>are all I'm looking for (trades accepted, too, though preferably for >>small things). >> > > It must be contagous! I've been thinking about getting rid of some of my >stuff including the IBM 5100 and some of the HPs. > > Joe > > You fellows think you have a problem!! If MY girlfriend would get her stuff out of my garage I could store more old computers!! Cheers Charlie Fox From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu Jun 18 03:24:55 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: References: <001801bd99ed$a5ab2e80$206fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <199806181220.IAA21359@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:27:53 -0800 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Rax > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: What is the first computer? > On a related note - I've been researching the history of computing for a > book that I'm working on. At this point, I've got a pretty complete (I > think) timeline. As soon as I can figure out (or some kind soul explains) Hi R, > how I can convert a MS Word (5.1 - I hate the later versions) table into an > HTML table (the timeline runs about 10,000 words and I can't face the > thought of re-typing it), I'll post it on my Web site for list members' > general edification and enlightenment, as well as criticisms, corrections, > and nit-picking. Very commandable work! :) BUT, that stupid WORD program tricked you with that file size. Every time you revise the doc, moved around, made corrections, large chunks of dupliace text got added as feature of "undo" backup which I considered "Bad Thing" to do so and keep growing. Why not try this: Select all then copy it to new document, save it. Look at the file size. about 1/3 smaller! Now, save as with different name again from that newly created as ascii text file, loses all the special and formatting but this makes more compatiable with html later on. For me, no Word no thanks! There should be a proper WP program that doesn't add fluff and bloat 1+n in file size every time you change one word. :) IMHO. Jason D. > > R. > > -- > > > > Warbaby > The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. > http://www.warbaby.com > > The MonkeyPool > WebSite Content Development > http://www.monkeypool.com > > Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. > > > > > > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Jun 18 08:07:40 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: PDP model line / rarity? Message-ID: >> Hire the handicapped. They don't get much work done, but they're fun >> to watch. Hmm, I'll take that as a joke - in the way that it was (hopefully) intended. A word of advice though; think twice about what you say on this list - or anywhere else for that matter - as some people could take offence to that comment (and justifiably so!) J. > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 18 09:22:53 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Another Atari Achievement... In-Reply-To: <35886FEF.42E48CF0@crl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980618092253.00bb6290@pc> At 06:39 PM 6/17/98 -0700, Greg Troutman wrote: > >>From the photos I'd like to point out that he was actually using an >800XL. Anyway the book is highly recommended not only for the Atari >mention, but more so for it's majestic presentation of numerous >individuals who pursue science purely for the love of it. One might argue that he didn't need something as powerful as an Atari 800XL to do that. :-) These days, computer-aided hobby astronomer hackers are modifying Quickcams to use as el cheapo CCD imagers, running multimedia star-mapping tools on Windows laptops in the field, etc. I've even thought about writing a star-finder for my PalmPilot, having picked up an 8" Dobs for my birthday. (Of course, it's been cloudy ever since.) And the PalmPilot isn't far from the Atari ST or Amiga 1000 - 68000-ish chip, 3 megs of RAM, except it runs for three weeks on two AAAs. After all, Charles Moore created FORTH to control telescopes, too. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 18 09:12:59 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: old mac cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980617143537.3c570160@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980618091259.00c284b0@pc> At 06:01 PM 6/17/98 -0500, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 12:59 AM 6/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Apple Macintosh IIci Cache Card (nubus) >>Duh. I can make a good guess at this one. > >I'll offer $5 for this... When I run across 'em, I stick 'em in the IIci's >in Rachel's classroom. Dunno if it does anything, but it sounds cool. The IIci cache cards result in a small speed-up. They were give-away items even a few years ago. A lot of people threw them out when they put some kind of PPC or 040 accelerator in their IIci. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 18 09:28:45 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <199806181220.IAA21359@mail.cgocable.net> References: <001801bd99ed$a5ab2e80$206fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980618092845.009c2b80@pc> At 08:24 AM 6/18/98 +0000, jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > >BUT, that stupid WORD program tricked you with that file size. >Every time you revise the doc, moved around, made corrections, large >chunks of dupliace text got added as feature of "undo" backup which I >considered "Bad Thing" to do so and keep growing. No, that's a good thing, especially when someone sends you a proposal in Word form in e-mail, and then you can read the binary so see what they'd said in previous revisions, or in the last time they sent this form letter to someone. :-) - John From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Jun 18 12:20:10 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: Baby's birthday... Web Page on BBC Message-ID: <9805188982.AA898215713@compsci.powertech.co.uk> [Manchester SSEM] > That's pretty neat. Let me know if all the lights in town dim when they > turn it back on! > > Any idea how many of those were sold and what they cost? Um. Yes. AFAIK, none were sold, and they (it) cost a lot. :-) But they probably didn't track the cost accurately, since the machine was continually being extended - it (i.e. the physical hardware, not just the design) was used as a basis for the next couple of Manchester machines (including the mark 1, I think). Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Jun 18 12:27:40 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <9805188982.AA898216070@compsci.powertech.co.uk> William Donzelli quoted Tony Duell as having written: >> Agreed. You can understand an ASR33 or similar by turning it by hand and >> tripping linkages, etc. I did it years ago. Doing the same to a video >> terminal, even a simple dumb terminal, is a lot harder (Done that as well!) > > I have actually done that with a chunk of one of these computers - the > turn of one gear would cause a hundred others to move. > >> The other nice thing is that, with the possible exception of custom cams, >> it's generally pretty obvious what broken parts should be like. And then >> it's possible to make them without too much equipment. But a dead custom >> chip is almost impossible to figure out, and hard to reproduce. > > That is very true - a stripped gear is a stripped gear is a stripped gear! Ooh! Not so fast! Is it straight, helical, worm or hypoid? Or an eliptical gear even? But yes, a gear is easy to rconstruct from its wreckage. Some cams and levers, though, have quite tight tolerance spikes and notches which it is quite difficult to get right from seeing the bent/broken ones. > Fixing one of these mechanical computers, however, is completely different > from the familiar digital ones. In the latter, all problems (except video) > are go/no go. In the former, problems manifest themselves in the outputs > giving out-of-spec or erroneous results (except with a catasprophic > failure!). Bearing in mind Tony's, Sam's and others' comments on intermittent faults and the like, yes, up to a point. Video is not the only exception, though - other things (e.g. disk drives) can suffer similarly. And finally, remember digital mechanical computers do exist - I have a Facit mechanical calculator with some quite sophisticated algorithms (optimised multiplication, non-restoring division) done digitally, entirely with mechanical parts. (The only electrical bits are a motor and a switch.) Philip. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 18 11:32:34 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:39 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980617163237.5dffb0de@ricochet.net> At 09:41 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >I think there was an automated loom that was invented in the 17th century >that wove a pattern based on a template, but I don't recall if this was a IIRC, this is where our modern-day punched cards came from. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 18 11:32:37 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980617163840.5e4f81da@ricochet.net> At 10:37 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my >general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly >80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, >etc.) but will take just about anything. And if you know of a robotron in the SF bay area available for cheap, 4-6hours of sleep per night is way too much anyway... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 18 11:32:44 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980617165247.5e4f87c6@ricochet.net> At 11:47 AM 6/17/98, you wrote: > It must be contagous! I've been thinking about getting rid of some of my >stuff including the IBM 5100 and some of the HPs. If you decide to get rid of an IPC... P.S., I still need to get your Multispeed manuals in the mail to you... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From william at ans.net Thu Jun 18 11:45:36 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <9805188982.AA898216070@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: > Ooh! Not so fast! Is it straight, helical, worm or hypoid? Or an > eliptical gear even? But yes, a gear is easy to rconstruct from its > wreckage. Well, obviously one replaces with the correct type of gear! > Some cams and levers, though, have quite tight tolerance > spikes and notches which it is quite difficult to get right from seeing > the bent/broken ones. Impossible, sometimes. What if a special "hump" on a cam is so worn down that one cannot reconstruct its shape? Some of the correct "shape" could exist as aluminum powder. > Bearing in mind Tony's, Sam's and others' comments on intermittent > faults and the like, yes, up to a point. Video is not the only > exception, though - other things (e.g. disk drives) can suffer > similarly. No, not disk drives. Sure, some analog circuitry in a drive might go sour, but those faults would result in bad data. With a working drive, you want correct data, and if you do not get it, something is wrong. There is no tolerance. With an analog system, you have to expect that the output data will not be perfect. For example (also a magnetic recording medium), playing back a signal will never be the same as what was recorded, due to noise and distortion. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at wco.com Thu Jun 18 12:05:49 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <199806181107.GAA08954@dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Bob Stek wrote: > BTW, disgruntled French factory weavers who realized the threat of > automated Jacquard looms to their skilled jobs were known to throw their > wooden shoes, sabots, into the mechanical workings in order to express > their displeasure at being replaced by a machine. Hence the the coining of > a new word - sabotage. I think you're mixing-up the terms "luddite" and "sabotage". Although the anecdote is correct, "sabotage" is thought to have originated in the late 1800's, whereas the Jacquard Loom was invented in the late 1700s and introduced in the beginning of the 1800s. The term "luddite" is thought to have been the last name of the worker who started breaking stuff, and others followed. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From franke at sbs.de Thu Jun 18 14:42:06 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806181729.TAA21516@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>I'd give the honours of 1st computer to the Zuse Z1 - a relay machine >>between the Wars, I think. But some mechanical calculators at that date >>were quite sophisticated. Comments, anyone?? > Well, I'd give computer credit to Babage's machine, ca. 1896, IIRC. He is, > after all the one who coined the phrase "computer." Babbage died 1871 :) The Analytical Machine was never build and had never worked. Even the 1991 'replica' of the National Museum of Science and Technology in London was only build after his plans _and_ additions 'known' at this time. A neat (english) description of the Z1 and Z3 could be found at http://www.zib.de/prospekt/zuse/zusez1z3.html (Hard code documentation) or http://bang.lanl.gov/video/sunedu/computer/z1z4.html (soft :) The first programable general purpose computer is for shure the Z1. And the first electronic computer is the Z3 since the Z1 was just mechanical. Also both are the first binary floating point computers (Babage used decimal wheels). Servus H. P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Jun 18 15:00:44 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa Message-ID: <199806181748.TAA22290@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my >>general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly >>80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, >>etc.) but will take just about anything. > And if you know of a robotron in the SF bay area available for cheap, > 4-6hours of sleep per night is way too much anyway... 8^) Robotron ? Talking about the East German Computers ? :) H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 18 13:15:06 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Pen Windows 2.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980618054317.006b7bc4@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > Which needs at least a 286 and 2mb to run. This is a V20 here. I need the > older version of GeoWorks. Don't believe them. I don't think they actually *require* a 286; they're simply underestimating your tolerance to pain. -- Doug From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 18 14:10:48 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Likewise the Commodore 8-bitters. In the early 1980s, I was one of the > > first in my school (I was 14 or so at the time) to own a floppy disk > > (yes, a disk, not a drive). I had heard of "flippy disks" with two > > index holes, which you could turn over, thus using both surfaces in a > > single sided drive. But I didn't realise you needed to give it a second > > index hole. > > Incidentally the Siemens drives in my Z-90 have mouting positions (and > pins on the PCB plugs) for a second index sensor and write-protect switch > so that they can use a normal disk as a 'flippy'. None of my drives have > this fitted, though > > -tony I wonder if implemented if it would be necessary to let the read electronics know which sensor it was reading to compensate for the rotation positional difference. Or whether when reading the flippy side it would simply wait longer to read the sector header. - don From cad at gamewood.net Thu Jun 18 15:01:19 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Zenith Lap Top ---- HELP Message-ID: <3589720F.6E47@gamewood.net> Hi Fellows: Trying to help out a friendd! Zenith laptop cir.1988 20meg HD. CMOS battery died! Need information on HD type if at all possible. This model supposedly had 20meg and 40meg HD models. TIA Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 18 15:21:37 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <199806182021.AA07654@world.std.com> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 18, 98 07:43:06 pm Message-ID: <199806182056.NAA03641@goodnet.com> > P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of > Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. Johann Kepler tried to build some kind of calculator too I think. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * X window * sci fi * Star Trek * Khoros * robotics * TCP/IP packet * From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 18 12:35:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980617212322.2ecfad4a@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 17, 98 09:23:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1386 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980618/198c4fee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 18 12:40:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <199806180115.UAA07191@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jun 17, 98 08:12:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 707 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980618/eebd8869/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 18 12:29:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980617195224.2d17d2ee@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 17, 98 07:52:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 423 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980618/c578e16a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 18 13:08:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <9805188982.AA898216070@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jun 18, 98 05:27:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 862 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980618/fe07f5f1/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 18 16:32:18 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: CP/M" (Jun 18, 18:29) References: Message-ID: <9806182232.ZM723@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 18, 18:29, Tony Duell wrote: > > >holes and putting the disk back in the jacket. Problem is resealing the > > >edge of the jacket which I've opened. > > > > Tape works well! > > No it doesn't! 99% of all the tapes out there fail after a couple of > years (at most) leaving a somewhat sticky residue behind. 5.25" (and 8") > floppies were rarely (if ever) assembled using adhesives - a thermal > welding process appears to be what was done. > > > Joe You could try tetrahydofuran, as found in Vinyl Weld adhesive. Noxious stuff, but it works on a lot of "difficult" plastics and you only need a very small amount. I mostly use it for making custom ribbon cables. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 18 17:44:36 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <4876@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806182148.QAA10906@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > > P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of > > Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. > > Johann Kepler tried to build some kind of calculator too I think. Does Blaise Pascal's box count? Jeff From yowza at yowza.com Thu Jun 18 17:04:29 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: 8008 Datasheets In-Reply-To: <199806182148.QAA10906@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: Does anybody have Intel 8008 datasheets that they're willing to copy for me? I'll gladly pay for the copying/shipping. -- Doug From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 18 17:45:13 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <199806182021.AA07654@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > < > < - don > > No, the relative position is the same as the index hole occurs and you > start formatting there. What that means is sector 1 is displaced about > 1/3 of a turn from the "normal" unflipped position. > > Allison Yes, of course! - don From cad at gamewood.net Thu Jun 18 18:21:52 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M References: <199806182021.AA07654@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3589A110.55C@gamewood.net> Allison J Parent wrote: > > < > < - don > > No, the relative position is the same as the index hole occurs and you > start formatting there. What that means is sector 1 is displaced about > 1/3 of a turn from the "normal" unflipped position. > > Allison Wait a minute folks. Remember, the 'flippy' floppy, was intended to be turnned over, and re-inserted into a 'single side drive'. IF you are reading and writing to the second side _without_ the 'flip' operation, you need to be writing and reading the data stream, and inverting the order of the data for the whole track. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 18 18:41:53 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Curious George Goes to Micro Center Message-ID: <19980618234153.7057.qmail@hotmail.com> An anecodote: Today, two teachers from my school went to Micro Center to get some stuff fixed, and took me with them. This was the first time I have ever been in a tech service room. There was one tech, a woman in her 40's, multitasking. She was only able to fix our printer, which wouldn't formfeed due to a gob of glue. She "solved" the other two problems with updates from Apple's site. Anyway, while she was busy with us, a guy walked in with a Mac Plus mouse. She told him that the only thing that could be done is to order a new one, if they're still in stock. One the bright side, she didn't sell him a DB-9 Intellimouse but I think the only reason a mouse should be replace is if the case is smashed or it just sucks (Zenix?). How do you expect classics to survive in active use if they're thrown away without an attemp at fixing them? By the way, what's the difference between DB and DE connectors? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 18 18:53:06 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: wet disks Message-ID: <19980618235306.4191.qmail@hotmail.com> I just picked up a bag full of 5.25" disks, that are completely soaked by rain. How do I dry them so that a)they are usable at least long enough to transfer the software b)I run a reasonable chance of saving the labels ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Jun 18 18:58:54 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: wet disks In-Reply-To: <19980618235306.4191.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Greetings Max, Any chance of using a Bell jar at a local school to create a vaccum to draw out all the moisture? If so do it very slowly.... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > I just picked up a bag full of 5.25" disks, that are completely > soaked by rain. How do I dry them so that > a)they are usable at least long enough to transfer the software > b)I run a reasonable chance of saving the labels > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From dastar at wco.com Thu Jun 18 19:04:44 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <199806182148.QAA10906@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of > > > Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. > > > > Johann Kepler tried to build some kind of calculator too I think. > > Does Blaise Pascal's box count? Yes, but Pascal was born in 1623 so Schickard's device most likely beats whatever Pascal developed in his lifetime (I think he was 18 when he invented it). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 18 16:16:48 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jun 18, 98 12:10:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1137 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980618/3d283e09/attachment.ksh From billm at teleport.com Thu Jun 18 19:39:01 1998 From: billm at teleport.com (Bill Marx) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Zenith Lap Top ---- HELP In-Reply-To: <3589720F.6E47@gamewood.net> from "Charles A. Davis" at Jun 18, 1998 04:01:19 PM Message-ID: <199806190039.RAA13143@user1.teleport.com> Recommend calling Battery Biz, they have been the most knowledgeable about battery questions. 800 number I do not have it handy good luck Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu Jun 18 15:54:01 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Zenith Lap Top ---- HELP In-Reply-To: <3589720F.6E47@gamewood.net> Message-ID: <199806190049.UAA03562@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:01:19 -0400 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Charles A. Davis" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Zenith Lap Top ---- HELP > X-To: Classic Computer List > Hi Fellows: > Trying to help out a friendd! > Zenith laptop cir.1988 20meg HD. > CMOS battery died! Need information on HD type if at all possible. > This model supposedly had 20meg and 40meg HD models. > > TIA Chuck Chuck, The model #? The label is on your bottom of this laptop. Without this, we're clueless... Jason D. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, > he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer > and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) > While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 > 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net > Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 18 19:45:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Curious George Goes to Micro Center In-Reply-To: <19980618234153.7057.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 18, 98 04:41:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4288 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980619/a6013a95/attachment.ksh From cad at gamewood.net Thu Jun 18 20:13:45 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Zenith Lap Top ---- HELP References: <199806190049.UAA03562@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3589BB49.5C79@gamewood.net> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:01:19 -0400 > > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > From: "Charles A. Davis" > > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: Zenith Lap Top ---- HELP > > X-To: Classic Computer List > > > Hi Fellows: > > Trying to help out a friendd! > > Zenith laptop cir.1988 20meg HD. > > CMOS battery died! Need information on HD type if at all possible. > > This model supposedly had 20meg and 40meg HD models. > > > > TIA Chuck > > Chuck, > > The model #? The label is on your bottom of this laptop. > > Without this, we're clueless... > > Jason D. > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca > Pero, Jason D. Thanks for the helps. Talking on the phone (haven't laid eyes on the unit) From the nameplate etc. Zenith SupersPort 286 | ZWL-0200-02 Then had the gentleman read the available documentation (after giving an idea of what to look for), he found a page with 'setup defaults' for the 40meg system, with an accompanying note that the disk type for the 20meg system is type 6. Eureka!! Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From kyrrin at jps.net Thu Jun 18 21:44:33 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980617195224.2d17d2ee@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980618194433.00e65100@mail.jps.net> At 18:29 18-06-98 +0100, Tony Duell proclaimed: >> >holes and putting the disk back in the jacket. Problem is resealing the >> >edge of the jacket which I've opened. >> >> Tape works well! > >No it doesn't! 99% of all the tapes out there fail after a couple of >years (at most) leaving a somewhat sticky residue behind. 5.25" (and 8") I beg to differ. Tell that to my many 9-track tapes which are all original DEC distribution media. At least half of them are ten years old, and (I'm pleased to say) showing no signs of deterioration whatsoever. I was able to, a couple of years ago, successfully read a 9-track tape I recorded on a PDP-11/70 that was at least fifteen years old (the tape, not the PDP). No errors at all. I also have a number of QICs (Quarter-Inch Cartridges) that seem to be just as stable now as when they rolled off the assembly line at least 12 years ago. Where did you get the idea that tape is so fragile? I'd wager the ones you encountered were either of very poor quality or were stored under adverse conditions (high heat, high humidity, etc). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jun 18 21:49:48 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980618224943.006b9d6c@netpath.net> At 07:44 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: > Where did you get the idea that tape is so fragile? I'd wager the ones you >encountered were either of very poor quality or were stored under adverse >conditions (high heat, high humidity, etc). A side note: I've got VHS tapes that are 10-12 years old and still look the same when played. I find that most tapes fail with heavy use, not age deterioration. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From cad at gamewood.net Thu Jun 18 21:57:57 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M References: <3.0.32.19980618224943.006b9d6c@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3589D3B5.AC7@gamewood.net> John Higginbotham wrote: > > At 07:44 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > Where did you get the idea that tape is so fragile? I'd wager the ones you > >encountered were either of very poor quality or were stored under adverse > >conditions (high heat, high humidity, etc). > > A side note: I've got VHS tapes that are 10-12 years old and still look the > same when played. I find that most tapes fail with heavy use, not age > deterioration. > > - > - john higginbotham ____________________________ > - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - > - limbo limbo.netpath.net - I _think_ you guys are confusing a refrence to 'tape' (sticky, sealing, scotch, etc.), with 'TAPE' (recording). Chuck From rax at warbaby.com Thu Jun 18 23:13:11 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: References: <199806182148.QAA10906@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: >> > > P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of >> > > Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. >> > >> > Johann Kepler tried to build some kind of calculator too I think. >> >> Does Blaise Pascal's box count? > >Yes, but Pascal was born in 1623 so Schickard's device most likely beats >whatever Pascal developed in his lifetime (I think he was 18 when he >invented it). Late-comers, all of them. My vote for the earliest computer is the Antikythera Device, a bronze mechanical lunar month calculator built in Greece about 80AD. Shickard's "Calculating Clock" was the next mechanical calculator of record in 1623, followed by Blaise Pascal's "Pascaline" in 1642, Samuel Morland's mechanical calculator in 1666, Gottfried Leibnez' "Stepped Reckoner" in 1674, Phillip-Malthus Hahn's calculating machines (the first sold commercially) in 1774, and the third Earl of Stanhope's multiplying calculator in 1777. The first mass-produced calculating machine was Thomas de Colmar's "Arithmometer" in 1820. Personally, I'm not interested in collecting anything later than that... ;) R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From djenner at halcyon.com Thu Jun 18 22:13:59 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: wet disks References: Message-ID: <3589D777.D496BC1A@halcyon.com> Normally you need to "freeze dry" something like this. That means slightly heating it (heat lamp through a window into the Bell jar or vacuum chamber) and having a "cold trap", which is a cold surface to freeze off all the moisture. You don't wantt to run all the moisture through the mechanical pump. It takes a good, two-stage mechanical pump to do it. You probably need to get down to about 200 microns to freeze it all off. When you suddenly get lower pressures, you know you're done. Dave George Rachor wrote: > > Greetings Max, > > Any chance of using a Bell jar at a local school to create a vaccum to > draw out all the moisture? > > If so do it very slowly.... > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > > On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > > > I just picked up a bag full of 5.25" disks, that are completely > > soaked by rain. How do I dry them so that > > a)they are usable at least long enough to transfer the software > > b)I run a reasonable chance of saving the labels > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jun 18 22:22:23 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: Location, Location, Location! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980617122634.00bed100@pc> Message-ID: That there be and for over a year now. And Issac is the name (tho he has been 'absent' for some time.) Of course being an avid arcade game collector - I'm sure he's STILL playing that Battlezone game he got. Name: Classic Computer Rescue List URL: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1055/classic.html On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, John Foust wrote: > > It would be nifty to have a web page with a list of Computer > Rescue Squad volunteers paired with their geographical coordinates, > with even perhaps a link to any one of the map-servers out there. > > - John BC From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 18 22:22:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:40 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <199806190322.AA05050@world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980617195224.2d17d2ee@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980618210809.2c9fc20a@intellistar.net> At 06:29 PM 6/18/98 +0100, you wrote: >> >holes and putting the disk back in the jacket. Problem is resealing the >> >edge of the jacket which I've opened. >> >> Tape works well! > >No it doesn't! 99% of all the tapes out there fail after a couple of Well I must have some 1% tape! I don't know what the stuff is but I have some VERY thin yellow tape that I've used on stuff like that for years and it never comes off. I now use that tape to tape a lot battery packs, electrical boxs, etc together instead of glueing them. Some of the items have been sealed that way since 1973 with no problems. >years (at most) leaving a somewhat sticky residue behind. 5.25" (and 8") >floppies were rarely (if ever) assembled using adhesives - a thermal >welding process appears to be what was done. Then what about a heat sealer? Perhaps one of those home units that they use to heat seal food storage bags. Seal-A-Meal is one brand here in the US. Joe > >> >> Joe > >-tony > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jun 18 21:16:12 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980617165247.5e4f87c6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980618211612.2d1f9580@intellistar.net> Roger, At 11:32 AM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 11:47 AM 6/17/98, you wrote: >> It must be contagous! I've been thinking about getting rid of some of my >>stuff including the IBM 5100 and some of the HPs. > >If you decide to get rid of an IPC... OK, I'll let you know if I decide to. > >P.S., I still need to get your Multispeed manuals in the mail to you... Yes, I was beginning to wonder about them. Did you get them copied OK? Joe > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jun 18 21:53:24 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: HP 9825 configurrationss In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980617193458.2e9fd2c0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980618215324.2c4f4c2e@intellistar.net> At 02:50 AM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Doug wrote: > > >Fixing my stuck "execute" key looks like it'll be a bastard too. It's not >stuck, the "snap" mechanism appears to be simply gone (not easily >explained since the keyboard appears to be a tight sandwich). I hope that >key isn't important in the big scheme of things, but I have a nagging >suspicion that it's needed to program. Yes, it's important. You press it to execute an expression immediately. You press ENTER (or STORE? I haven't used it in a while) to enter the expression into a stored program. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jun 18 22:20:35 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980618081651.006905f0@mail.wincom.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980617114750.2fefcfb4@intellistar.net> <01IYC8YHXFGY8Y5OFV@AC.GRIN.EDU> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980618222035.2c4f3d0a@intellistar.net> At 08:16 AM 6/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >At 11:47 AM 6/17/98, you wrote: >>At 10:33 AM 6/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>> My mom got fed up by the amount of junk I have in my room, so I will >>>> start to get rid of it (something I'd been planning to do). >>> >>>My girlfriend's getting fed up by the amount of junk I have in our >>>apartment, so I'm trying to get rid of some of it, too. Shipping costs >>>are all I'm looking for (trades accepted, too, though preferably for >>>small things). >>> >> >> It must be contagous! I've been thinking about getting rid of some of my >>stuff including the IBM 5100 and some of the HPs. >> >> Joe >> >> > > You fellows think you have a problem!! If MY girlfriend would get her >stuff out of my garage I could store more old computers!! > > Cheers > > Charlie Fox > > You think YOU have a problem! I don't even have a garage!!!! (No, I don't live in Missisippi!) Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Jun 18 22:34:33 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980618194433.00e65100@mail.jps.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980617195224.2d17d2ee@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980618223433.39372526@intellistar.net> Ahem! Read the message Bruce. We were talking about sealing tape, not mag tape! Joe At 07:44 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >At 18:29 18-06-98 +0100, Tony Duell proclaimed: > >>> >holes and putting the disk back in the jacket. Problem is resealing the >>> >edge of the jacket which I've opened. >>> >>> Tape works well! >> >>No it doesn't! 99% of all the tapes out there fail after a couple of >>years (at most) leaving a somewhat sticky residue behind. 5.25" (and 8") > > I beg to differ. Tell that to my many 9-track tapes which are all original >DEC distribution media. At least half of them are ten years old, and (I'm >pleased to say) showing no signs of deterioration whatsoever. I was able >to, a couple of years ago, successfully read a 9-track tape I recorded on a >PDP-11/70 that was at least fifteen years old (the tape, not the PDP). No >errors at all. > > I also have a number of QICs (Quarter-Inch Cartridges) that seem to be >just as stable now as when they rolled off the assembly line at least 12 >years ago. > > Where did you get the idea that tape is so fragile? I'd wager the ones you >encountered were either of very poor quality or were stored under adverse >conditions (high heat, high humidity, etc). > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) >(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From mor at crl.com Thu Jun 18 21:56:31 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items) References: <3.0.16.19980617163840.5e4f81da@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3589D35F.4BE2D9EC@crl.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 10:37 AM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my > >general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly > >80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, > >etc.) but will take just about anything. > > And if you know of a robotron in the SF bay area available for cheap, > 4-6hours of sleep per night is way too much anyway... 8^) I've got a Joust I might let go for something tasty. It's the same system board, you only need to swap the ROMs and re-work the control panel ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jun 18 22:51:40 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Need help with Mac Classic Message-ID: <199806190351.AA22494@world.std.com> My partner's classroom received a Mac Classic, donated by a parent. I've never done anything with Macs, so I need some help with this. - Can someone tell me the standard configuration(s) for a Mac Classic? - What options are available for it? - Where can I get a mouse (and other hardware) - Do I need a mouse? Can I get along without one? - Where can I get an operating system for it (MacOS?) Any and all help appreciated... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From yaksaken at hkstar.com Thu Jun 18 23:25:14 1998 From: yaksaken at hkstar.com (Ken Yaksa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Message-ID: <199806190425.MAA05452@imsp073.netvigator.com> Hi there.... Recently, I just got an old Mac IIci, which has 40M HDD & 8M RAM. After all, I added the RAM to 32M, and also want to change the stupid 40M SCSI HDD to a larger one.... But the problem is, I just can't find a diskette version of Mac OS 7.5.x for it... What can I do...?? If anyone has the old Mac OS, would you all pls make a copy for me?? I will pay the shipping and diskette cost..... (Coz, I don't think if I can get a new copy from APPLE.. :( ) Yours, Ken Yaksa From mallison at konnections.com Thu Jun 18 23:35:52 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Pamela Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Message-ID: <01BD9B09.7AE6D100@ip185-247.konnections.com> If you can't find one, check with Sun Remarketing in Smithfield Utah. They will sell all the way back to version 3.2 on 400 k disks. -Mike ---------- From: Ken Yaksa Sent: Thursday, June 18, 1998 10:25 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! <> From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 19 00:09:26 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! In-Reply-To: <199806190425.MAA05452@imsp073.netvigator.com> Message-ID: >Hi there.... > >Recently, I just got an old Mac IIci, which has 40M HDD & 8M RAM. After >all, I added the RAM to 32M, and also want to change the stupid 40M SCSI >HDD to a larger one.... But the problem is, I just can't find a diskette >version of Mac OS 7.5.x for it... What can I do...?? > >If anyone has the old Mac OS, would you all pls make a copy for me?? I will >pay the shipping and diskette cost..... (Coz, I don't think if I can get a >new copy from APPLE.. :( ) Actually you can get copies of 6.0.x and 7.0.x from one of their FTP sites ftp://ftp5.info.apple.com/Apple.Support.Area/Apple_SW_Updates/US/Macintosh/Syste m/Older_System/ Of course you need a functional Mac to make the floppies. If you have both hard drives, simply make sure the SCSI ID's are set to different numbers, and either leave both in the machine, or copy the 40Mb drive to the larger one. Another more expensive alternative would be to get a external CD-ROM and a copy of MacOS on CD. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 19 00:23:56 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Need help with Mac Classic In-Reply-To: <199806190351.AA22494@world.std.com> Message-ID: >My partner's classroom received a Mac Classic, donated by a parent. >I've never done anything with Macs, so I need some help with this. > >- Can someone tell me the standard configuration(s) for a Mac Classic? Well, off the top of my head, it's a 68000 processor, should be able to go up to at least 4Mb of RAM, possibly more. >- What options are available for it? External SCSI devices, and more RAM (if it's not maxed). It might have a PDS slot, that would take ethernet, and maybe an external video card, not sure about this. It is possible to get a box from Astante that you plug into the SCSI port and lets you put it on an ethernet network (very cool boxes, unfortunalty only good for 68k Macs). >- Where can I get a mouse (and other hardware) - Do I need a mouse? > Can I get along without one? You will need an ADB mouse, my recommendation would be to haunt Goodwill for a while, if you've got a large one near you, they probably get them in every now and then. Look for a mouse with a connector that looks a little like the connector on the keyboard cable. >- Where can I get an operating system for it (MacOS?) ftp://ftp5.info.apple.com/Apple.Support.Area/Apple_SW_Updates/US/Macintosh/Syste m/Older_System/ Go with the System 7.0.x release. Unfortunatly this requires access to another Macintosh to make the disks. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 19 00:54:26 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: **** snip **** > The outputs of the index sensors (and the WP switches for that matter) > are just ORed together. There's no other electronics there > > > rotation positional difference. Or whether when reading the flippy > > side it would simply wait longer to read the sector header. > > Why would it matter? Remeber you can't read a true DS disk as a flippy as > it's spinning the wrong way on the second side. So the other side of a > flippy was formatted and used only on flippy drives anyway. I guess what was lurking in the back of my mind as I wrote the question was the situation of trying to read a 'normal' flippy disk (with 2 jacket index holes symmetrical about the centerline) in a two sensor drive. > There's thus the same delay between index sensor and data for format, > read and write. So there's no problem at all. > > That's apart from the fact that index timing is only critical on hard > sectored controllers... I think that there are some exceptions to that Tony. The following is a clip from some correspondence with Chuck Guzis at Sydex a while back: "Another topic that I'd like to see some commentary on is how people have handled those old diskettes that lack the Index Address Mark information, such as those used on the Cromemco C10. On a PC controller, the first sector on a track on such a diskette usually falls to be seen by the FDC because it falls in the "blind spot" (ostensibly PLL sync-up time) of the 765-family chip. "On 5.25" diskettes, you could sometimes tape over the index hole and with some finagling, get a good read. I've heard of some people modifying a drive by moving the index-sensing LED/phototransistor assembly slightly to gain a few microseocnds. "But 3.5" diskette drives are too difficult to modify. We've had good read and write results by passing the index signal through a 1-shot carefully adjusted to trigger slightly ahead of the actual index position. But this is a very touchy arrangement, though it does work. I know that I have experienced the problem of the first paragraph on more than the C10 disks. - don From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 19 00:59:41 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! In-Reply-To: <199806190425.MAA05452@imsp073.netvigator.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Ken Yaksa wrote: > Hi there.... > > Recently, I just got an old Mac IIci, which has 40M HDD & 8M RAM. After > all, I added the RAM to 32M, and also want to change the stupid 40M SCSI > HDD to a larger one.... But the problem is, I just can't find a diskette > version of Mac OS 7.5.x for it... What can I do...?? > > If anyone has the old Mac OS, would you all pls make a copy for me?? I will > pay the shipping and diskette cost..... (Coz, I don't think if I can get a > new copy from APPLE.. :( ) If you still have the 40mb drive, set it for an ID other than 0 and connect it also. Then simply drag the system folder from the 40 to the new one. This assumes that the 40 had 7.5.x, of course. - don > Yours, > Ken Yaksa > From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 19 01:06:05 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? References: <199806182148.QAA10906@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3589FFCD.3F5CBC4E@rain.org> Rax wrote: > > Late-comers, all of them. My vote for the earliest computer is the > Antikythera Device, a bronze mechanical lunar month calculator built > in > Greece about 80AD. A very interesting book I was given some number of months ago is titled "The Origins of Digital Computers" which is a selection of papers edited by Brian Randell. It includes papers by Babbage, Hollerith, Zues, Schreyer, Aiken, Phillips, J. von Neumann, and quite a few others. I don't know how hard to come by this book is but it well deserves a place in any collectors library. From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Jun 19 01:46:39 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: 8008 Datasheets Message-ID: <199806190646.XAA22487@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi Doug and all, At 05:04 PM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >Does anybody have Intel 8008 datasheets that they're willing to copy for >me? I'll gladly pay for the copying/shipping. > > I have a bunch of stuff on the 8008, some too much for me to easily copy completely, including the MCS-8 8008 Users Manual (126 pages). In the 1976 Intel Data catalog, there is a 7 page data sheet: Page 1 Title and block diag. page 2 Photomicrograph Page 3 Functional pin description Page 4,5 Instruction set Page 6 Ratings, D.C., A.C. characteristics Page 7 Timing Diagram -Dave From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 19 01:44:47 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: Huw Davies's message of Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:10:36 +1000 References: <199806170611.QAA11199@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> <199806180210.MAA16620@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <199806190644.XAA27242@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Huw Davies wrote (in re Eunice): > It's been a while (not long enough really) so I might be recalling things > badly. I'm hopeful that we've thrown away the tapes/manuals/etc but I'll > take a look just in case... While I was at the office today I wandered down the hall to the library and we still have two sets of manuals for Eunice. You can sleep well though, this isn't a suggestion that they might be turned loose on any unsuspecting VAXen. -Frank McConnell "I want my MPE" (w/apologies to Dire Straits) From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 19 02:04:42 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: 8008 Datasheets In-Reply-To: <199806190646.XAA22487@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, dave dameron wrote: > I have a bunch of stuff on the 8008, some too much for me to easily copy > completely, including the MCS-8 8008 Users Manual (126 pages). That sounds interesting. How much of that is just instruction set? If that chapter is smallish, a copy would be great! I'm looking for info sufficient to write a simulator, so ISA + exceptions/interrupts/etc. should do the trick. > In the 1976 Intel Data catalog, there is a 7 page data sheet: > Page 1 Title and block diag. > page 2 Photomicrograph > Page 3 Functional pin description > Page 4,5 Instruction set > Page 6 Ratings, D.C., A.C. characteristics > Page 7 Timing Diagram Good stuff, but I've already had one offer for a copy. Since it's small, I'll try to get around to web-izing it. (Intel copyright lawyers be damned! (At least until they ask me to take it down.)) -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 19 02:20:48 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Another Atari Achievement... References: <3.0.1.32.19980618092253.00bb6290@pc> Message-ID: <358A1150.1091FF16@cnct.com> John Foust wrote: > > At 06:39 PM 6/17/98 -0700, Greg Troutman wrote: > > > >>From the photos I'd like to point out that he was actually using an > >800XL. Anyway the book is highly recommended not only for the Atari > >mention, but more so for it's majestic presentation of numerous > >individuals who pursue science purely for the love of it. > > One might argue that he didn't need something as powerful > as an Atari 800XL to do that. :-) These days, computer-aided > hobby astronomer hackers are modifying Quickcams to use as > el cheapo CCD imagers, running multimedia star-mapping tools > on Windows laptops in the field, etc. I've even thought about > writing a star-finder for my PalmPilot, having picked up > an 8" Dobs for my birthday. (Of course, it's been cloudy > ever since.) And the PalmPilot isn't far from the Atari ST > or Amiga 1000 - 68000-ish chip, 3 megs of RAM, except it > runs for three weeks on two AAAs. > > After all, Charles Moore created FORTH to control telescopes, too. No, Charles Moore created FORTH as a notation system for teaching mathematics -- it just happened that when the notation system was converted to a programming language that it became handy for such things as controlling telescopes. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 19 02:43:25 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: Don Maslin "Re: Re[2]: CP/M" (Jun 18, 22:54) References: Message-ID: <9806190843.ZM1265@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> > I think that there are some exceptions to that Tony. The following is a > clip from some correspondence with Chuck Guzis at Sydex a while back: > > "Another topic that I'd like to see some commentary on is how people > have handled those old diskettes that lack the Index Address Mark > information, such as those used on the Cromemco C10. On a PC > controller, the first sector on a track on such a diskette usually falls > to be seen by the FDC because it falls in the "blind spot" (ostensibly > PLL sync-up time) of the 765-family chip. Have you tried using a controller that doesn't need the Index Address Mark, such as a WD1772 or a NatSemi DP8473 ? > "But 3.5" diskette drives are too difficult to modify. We've had good > read and write results by passing the index signal through a 1-shot > carefully adjusted to trigger slightly ahead of the actual index > position. But this is a very touchy arrangement, though it does work. But the Index Address Mark isn't part of the spec for 3.5" disks. I know most PC controllers put it there, but it's not in the Sony spec, and some controllers (see above) will work fine without it. > I know that I have experienced the problem of the first paragraph on more > than the C10 disks. > - don -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 19 03:29:55 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater are Message-ID: <9805198982.AA898271232@compsci.powertech.co.uk> HRK wrote: >>>Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my >>>general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly >>>80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, >>>etc.) but will take just about anything. > >> And if you know of a robotron in the SF bay area available for cheap, >> 4-6hours of sleep per night is way too much anyway... 8^) > > Robotron ? > > Talking about the East German Computers ? [falls on floor laughing] No. He is talking about video games. I made exactly that mistake about a year ago - someone mentioned that he liked Robotron, and I immediately jumped in asking for info about East German computers! (only to back out, somewhat embarrassed, a few messages later) I have, it seems, the front panel and associated logic from a Robotron [can't remember the model number]. I bought it on holiday in Munich, sorry, Muenchen, a few years ago (picture the scene: eccentric hacker with estate car (station wagon) full of kit, GB plates on the back, trying to get through customs at Strasbourg. I got so exasperated that when they asked, "etes-vous espion?" I said "mais oui!") But what I was really wanting to say was, at last someone else who's heard of the East German Robotron! Do you have any info about them, what they did, when they did it, specific machines? Is there the remotest chance that if I post the model number of my stuff you can find me docs on it? Or tell me where to find docs on it? Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 19 03:55:05 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <9805198982.AA898271765@compsci.powertech.co.uk> HRK wrote: > A neat (english) description of the Z1 and Z3 could be found at > http://www.zib.de/prospekt/zuse/zusez1z3.html > (Hard code documentation) or > http://bang.lanl.gov/video/sunedu/computer/z1z4.html > (soft :) Thanks - I'll have a look at those! > The first programable general purpose computer is for shure > the Z1. And the first electronic computer is the Z3 since > the Z1 was just mechanical. Also both are the first binary > floating point computers (Babage used decimal wheels). Hey! They can't both be the first floating point binary machine! Presumably the Z1 was. And (though no doubt I'll find I'm wrong when I look at those web pages) I thought Z3 was a relay machine, not electronic. [Distinction. Relay - switching is performed by moving parts of the circuit. Electronic, whether tubes or solid state, switching acts directly on the electrons (or holes), hence the term] Was the Z3 like the Z4 in using old 35mm cine film for punched tape? (don't try and read it with an optical reader!!!!) > P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of > Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. What date was Pascal's calculator, someone? Irony of the week: the Pascal calculator in the London Science Museum is a decimal model. That in the Deutches Museum is a Pounds, Shillings and Pence model. :-) Philip. From rax at warbaby.com Fri Jun 19 04:16:10 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980618224943.006b9d6c@netpath.net> Message-ID: >At 07:44 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: > >> Where did you get the idea that tape is so fragile? I'd wager the >>ones you >>encountered were either of very poor quality or were stored under adverse >>conditions (high heat, high humidity, etc). > John Hickenbotham added: >A side note: I've got VHS tapes that are 10-12 years old and still look the >same when played. I find that most tapes fail with heavy use, not age >deterioration. > To which I'll further add: I have reel to reel audio tapes of field recordings I made in the mid-sixties which are still quite playable. There may be a slight loss of audio quality in the highs, but it's hard to tell since banjo picking doesn't offer a lot of fidelity to begin with. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From mor at crl.com Fri Jun 19 02:12:14 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Another Atari Achievement... References: <3.0.1.32.19980618092253.00bb6290@pc> <358A1150.1091FF16@cnct.com> Message-ID: <358A0F4E.2ECB4FCE@crl.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > John Foust wrote: > > > > At 06:39 PM 6/17/98 -0700, Greg Troutman wrote: > > > > > >>From the photos I'd like to point out that he was actually using an > > >800XL. Anyway the book is highly recommended not only for the Atari > > >mention, but more so for it's majestic presentation of numerous > > >individuals who pursue science purely for the love of it. > > > > One might argue that he didn't need something as powerful > > as an Atari 800XL to do that. :-) These days, computer-aided > > hobby astronomer hackers are modifying Quickcams to use as > > el cheapo CCD imagers, running multimedia star-mapping tools > > on Windows laptops in the field, etc. I've even thought about > > writing a star-finder for my PalmPilot, having picked up > > an 8" Dobs for my birthday. (Of course, it's been cloudy > > ever since.) And the PalmPilot isn't far from the Atari ST > > or Amiga 1000 - 68000-ish chip, 3 megs of RAM, except it > > runs for three weeks on two AAAs. > > > > After all, Charles Moore created FORTH to control telescopes, too. > > No, Charles Moore created FORTH as a notation system for teaching > mathematics -- it just happened that when the notation system was > converted to a programming language that it became handy for such > things as controlling telescopes. Hmm. I'd read that he was just a prolific programmer and wrote FORTH simply because he wanted something REALLY efficient for his own coding efforts.... -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From yaksaken at hkstar.com Fri Jun 19 03:05:38 1998 From: yaksaken at hkstar.com (Ken Yaksa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Message-ID: <199806190807.QAA01417@imsp074.netvigator.com> Hi Pamela Allison: > If you can't find one, check with Sun Remarketing in Smithfield Utah. They will sell all the way back to version 3.2 on 400 k disks. But the problem is that I live in Hong Kong.... :( From gim at hitec-uk.com Thu Jun 18 13:40:03 1998 From: gim at hitec-uk.com (gim@hitec-uk.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Baby's birthday... Web Page on BBC Message-ID: <80256627.00665993.00@hitec-uk.com> Yes,onlyone was made [well, two,if you count the remake. It was the predecessor to the Mark One, which was, in turn the predecessor to the Feranti Mark One, which claims to be the first comercially available computer. Other interestinf firsts from Manchester... the first use of virtual memory... Grant. Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk on 06/18/98 06:20:10 PM Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" cc: Subject: Re[2]: Baby's birthday... Web Page on BBC [Manchester SSEM] > That's pretty neat. Let me know if all the lights in town dim when they > turn it back on! > > Any idea how many of those were sold and what they cost? Um. Yes. AFAIK, none were sold, and they (it) cost a lot. :-) But they probably didn't track the cost accurately, since the machine was continually being extended - it (i.e. the physical hardware, not just the design) was used as a basis for the next couple of Manchester machines (including the mark 1, I think). Philip. From yaksaken at hkstar.com Fri Jun 19 03:18:02 1998 From: yaksaken at hkstar.com (Ken Yaksa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Message-ID: <199806190818.QAA24066@imsp015.netvigator.com> Hi there... > Actually you can get copies of 6.0.x and 7.0.x from one of their FTP sites > ftp://ftp5.info.apple.com/Apple.Support.Area/Apple_SW_Updates/US/Macintosh/S yste > m/Older_System/ > > Of course you need a functional Mac to make the floppies. If you have both > hard drives, simply make sure the SCSI ID's are set to different numbers, > and either leave both in the machine, or copy the 40Mb drive to the larger > one. Another more expensive alternative would be to get a external CD-ROM > and a copy of MacOS on CD. Umm.... If there has any method to build up the Mac Discs on a PC?? Yours, Ken Yaksa From yaksaken at hkstar.com Fri Jun 19 03:26:49 1998 From: yaksaken at hkstar.com (Ken Yaksa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Message-ID: <199806190826.QAA26325@imsp015.netvigator.com> Hi there... > If you still have the 40mb drive, set it for an ID other than 0 and > connect it also. Then simply drag the system folder from the 40 to the > new one. This assumes that the 40 had 7.5.x, of course. > > - don Don, Which is 7.5.1 in the 40M HDD... But, if there has any way for me to get a 7.5.3 diskette version?? 7.0 is just.... Umm.... Yours, Ken Yaksa From rax at warbaby.com Fri Jun 19 05:41:21 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19980618224943.006b9d6c@netpath.net> Message-ID: >>At 07:44 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: >> >>> Where did you get the idea that tape is so fragile? I'd wager the >>>ones you >>>encountered were either of very poor quality or were stored under adverse >>>conditions (high heat, high humidity, etc). >> >John Hickenbotham added: > >>A side note: I've got VHS tapes that are 10-12 years old and still look the >>same when played. I find that most tapes fail with heavy use, not age >>deterioration. >> > >To which I'll further add: > >I have reel to reel audio tapes of field recordings I made in the >mid-sixties which are still quite playable. There may be a slight loss of >audio quality in the highs, but it's hard to tell since banjo picking >doesn't offer a lot of fidelity to begin with. > >R. Aaakk! Just read the explanation that the thread was about adhesive tape, not recording tape. Duh. Apologies for the wasted bandwidth. Duh. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Fri Jun 19 04:39:23 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Need help with Mac Classic Message-ID: <001601bd9b66$24da55e0$823ec018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I'm also playing with a Mac Classic at the moment. Mine had 2Mb RAM, a 20Mb hard drive and the keyboard and mouse. I believe they are very similar to the SE, just more economical to manufacture and with a 1.4Mb floppy drive. > >My partner's classroom received a Mac Classic, donated by a parent. >I've never done anything with Macs, so I need some help with this. > >- Can someone tell me the standard configuration(s) for a Mac Classic? Ram on the mainboard is 1Mb but there is an extender card usually fitted with another 1Mb and room for 2 X 30pin simms. I put 2 X 1Mb PC simms in it and they work fine. There is a jumper to move to do this. Well marked. 4Mb is max RAM. I replaced the hard drive with a 120Mb SCSI drive but the initialization program in the OS only works on Apple branded disks. I'm still trying to sort this out. > >- What options are available for it? > >- Where can I get a mouse (and other hardware) - Do I need a mouse? > Can I get along without one? You need a mouse. I have accumulated a few from garage sales etc. There are two types. You can't use the one from very early Macs, you need the one with a PS/2 size connector. Same as the keyboard, and in fact it plugs into the normal keyboard. > >- Where can I get an operating system for it (MacOS?) I also picked these up at garage sales. I have been told to stick with System 6 because System 7 takes up too much memory for this machine. Hans From chrish at knet.kootenay.net Fri Jun 19 07:00:11 1998 From: chrish at knet.kootenay.net (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: COMODORE=TANDY In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19980618224943.006b9d6c@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980619050011.006a2164@vader.kootenay.net> I was looking around at http://www.patents.ibm.com I discovered that Commodore Electronics held the patent for the case of the TRS-80 CoCo2(3?), which makes me wonder if they designed the rest of the computer for Radio Shack. Any Edgeumacated guesses anyone...anyone :) Chris Halarewich From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Fri Jun 19 07:29:36 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Need help with Mac Classic In-Reply-To: <199806190351.AA22494@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jun 18, 98 11:51:40 pm Message-ID: <199806191229.IAA03663@shell.monmouth.com> > My partner's classroom received a Mac Classic, donated by a parent. > I've never done anything with Macs, so I need some help with this. > > - Can someone tell me the standard configuration(s) for a Mac Classic? > > - What options are available for it? > > - Where can I get a mouse (and other hardware) - Do I need a mouse? > Can I get along without one? > > - Where can I get an operating system for it (MacOS?) > > Any and all help appreciated... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > Get in touch with me and I'll be glad to help you out. I can cut the OS on Mac disks for you. I also have a couple of old Mac Plus systems that I've been looking to donate somewhere. I can probably dig up a mouse as well. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 19 07:30:48 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <199806191230.AA11504@world.std.com> <"But 3.5" diskette drives are too difficult to modify. We've had good from "Joe" at Jun 18, 98 09:08:09 pm Message-ID: <199806191231.IAA04475@shell.monmouth.com> > > At 06:29 PM 6/18/98 +0100, you wrote: > >> >holes and putting the disk back in the jacket. Problem is resealing the > >> >edge of the jacket which I've opened. > >> Crazy Glue has worked for me if all I've done is broken the heat seal on the stuff. Bill From franke at sbs.de Fri Jun 19 09:46:11 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806191233.OAA08631@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of >> Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. > Johann Kepler tried to build some kind of calculator too I think. I never heard of it, but maybe he thought about some machine in his time as Imperial Mathematician in Prag (1601..1612 - nice history on http://www.kepler.arc.nasa.gov/johannes.html ) - but afaik the idea of calculating machines did recive more attention (althrough more seen as scince fiction) after the invention of the Taschenuhr by Peter Heinlein (15something). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Jun 19 10:23:49 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806191311.PAA11511@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of >>> Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. >> Johann Kepler tried to build some kind of calculator too I think. > Does Blaise Pascal's box count? 19 Jears to late - Pascals machine is dated 1942. But thinking again, we should define what a 'calulatoer' is for our search of the first one - Right now I prefer the definition of a macanic machine to add and subtract numbers, displayed in (decimal) digits by pointers or similar, without restrictions to special numbers. This excludes analogous calculators and special purpose thingis. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Jun 19 10:23:49 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater ar Message-ID: <199806191311.PAA11508@marina.fth.sbs.de> > HRK wrote: Ups :) >>>>Speaking of big iron, if anyone runs across any arcade machines in my >>>>general area, like within 300-400 miles, I WILL pickup. Looking for mostly >>>>80's era games, like the old Atari vectors (Tempest, Asteroids, Battlezone, >>>>etc.) but will take just about anything. >>> And if you know of a robotron in the SF bay area available for cheap, >>> 4-6hours of sleep per night is way too much anyway... 8^) >> Robotron ? >> Talking about the East German Computers ? > [falls on floor laughing] > No. He is talking about video games. > I made exactly that mistake about a year ago - someone mentioned that he > liked Robotron, and I immediately jumped in asking for info about East > German computers! (only to back out, somewhat embarrassed, a few > messages later) Shure, the context is prety clear - I just couldn't resist :) > I have, it seems, the front panel and associated logic from a Robotron > [can't remember the model number]. I bought it on holiday in Munich, > sorry, Muenchen, a few years ago (picture the scene: eccentric hacker > with estate car (station wagon) full of kit, GB plates on the back, > trying to get through customs at Strasbourg. I got so exasperated that > when they asked, "etes-vous espion?" I said "mais oui!") rotfl. > But what I was really wanting to say was, at last someone else who's > heard of the East German Robotron! Do you have any info about them, > what they did, when they did it, specific machines? Is there the > remotest chance that if I post the model number of my stuff you can find > me docs on it? Or tell me where to find docs on it? Hard, I own 2 Robotron PCs (one Z80 CP/M system and one PC Clone), but since I live in Muenchen (:), I'm not in the 'native Environment' of Robotron clasics. But maybe I could forward your questuons to some east German friends. Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Jun 19 10:48:35 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806191336.PAA13398@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> The first programable general purpose computer is for shure >> the Z1. And the first electronic computer is the Z3 since >> the Z1 was just mechanical. Also both are the first binary >> floating point computers (Babage used decimal wheels). > Hey! They can't both be the first floating point binary machine! > Presumably the Z1 was. Z1 first computer, first floating point and binary computer but mechanical. Z3 the same (but better) and electronical. > And (though no doubt I'll find I'm wrong when I look at those web pages) > I thought Z3 was a relay machine, not electronic. > [Distinction. Relay - switching is performed by moving parts of the > circuit. Electronic, whether tubes or solid state, switching acts > directly on the electrons (or holes), hence the term] Different definition: In mechanical computers (and calculators) the information is proccessed and transported by mechanical actions/things - like wheels or pushin/pulling bars. In electronical computers information is processed and transported by flow of electricity. So the Z1 is pure mechanical (the only electrcal component was (is) the motor to drive all bars), while the Z3 is electronical. The Z2 was in fact a mixed up - The storage memory was mechanical (used from the Z1) but the CPU was electronic (Relais). You see ? There are mix ups already in the early evolution - Zuse even thought about using tubes instead of relais, but they have been way to expensive. Later on there have been again mixed ups. Relais + mechanical + tubes - or Tubes plus transistors + relais ... and so on. (Oh and even my APPPLE ][+ was a mixed up - he utilized a relay on the 80 colum card for switching :) > Was the Z3 like the Z4 in using old 35mm cine film for punched tape? > (don't try and read it with an optical reader!!!!) Never heard of opto-mechanics ? *g* In fact all early Zuse computers used old cine tapes. Z1, Z2, Z3, Z4. >> P.S.: The first calculatin machine might be the one of >> Wilhelm Schickard from 1623. > What date was Pascal's calculator, someone? 1642 > Irony of the week: the > Pascal calculator in the London Science Museum is a decimal model. That > in the Deutches Museum is a Pounds, Shillings and Pence model. :-) Afaik they also own a decimal one, but Pounds, Shillings and Pence ar _way_way_way_ more exotic :) - It gets a lot more attention than 'just' decimal calculaters, althrough the difference are only some of the wheels. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Fri Jun 19 10:53:23 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Message-ID: <199806191340.PAA13810@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Recently, I just got an old Mac IIci, which has 40M HDD & 8M RAM. After > all, I added the RAM to 32M, and also want to change the stupid 40M SCSI > HDD to a larger one.... But the problem is, I just can't find a diskette > version of Mac OS 7.5.x for it... What can I do...?? > If anyone has the old Mac OS, would you all pls make a copy for me?? I will > pay the shipping and diskette cost..... (Coz, I don't think if I can get a > new copy from APPLE.. :( ) Buy a external SCSI CD-ROM and install from CD - they should be sill availabe at Apple dealers (the CDs) - maybe they even give the CD away for free. Maybe they even lend you the CD drive for a small fee. The other solution is just to keep the 40 MB drive and use it as boot drive or, third solution, just use it once paralell to copy the system folder. If you plan to use the ci futher, a CD is a must to auire new soft. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From museum at techniche.com Fri Jun 19 08:53:17 1998 From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Need help with Mac Classic Message-ID: <199806191353.JAA27456@camel8.mindspring.com> Hi Megan, If you're looking for a place to donate some computer (mac or otherwise), I'll take it. I'm trying to organize my personal collection in to a formal museum-like display. I'm always looking to expand that collection. At present it has 0 apple computer systems in it! I own my own software company and I am trying to do this in our warehouse area. I intend that it should remain a privately owned collection, but I'd like to open it up to public viewing, by appointment anyway. That way I could show it to groups like ham clubs, schools, software and hardware professional groups, etc. It's not a non-profit organization (in fact it's not legally any kind of formal organization, although my company informally subsidizes it), so there wouldn't be any tax write-off. Keep me in mind, Jon Healey techNiche, Inc. (603) 626-7000 >> My partner's classroom received a Mac Classic, donated by a parent. >> I've never done anything with Macs, so I need some help with this. >> >> - Can someone tell me the standard configuration(s) for a Mac Classic? >> >> - What options are available for it? >> >> - Where can I get a mouse (and other hardware) - Do I need a mouse? >> Can I get along without one? >> >> - Where can I get an operating system for it (MacOS?) >> >> Any and all help appreciated... >> >> Megan Gentry >> Former RT-11 Developer >> > >Get in touch with me and I'll be glad to help you out. >I can cut the OS on Mac disks for you. >I also have a couple of old Mac Plus systems that I've been looking >to donate somewhere. > >I can probably dig up a mouse as well. > >Bill >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | >| 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | >| pechter@shell.monmouth.com | >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 19 09:07:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806191407.AA12421@world.std.com> < <> And (though no doubt I'll find I'm wrong when I look at those web pages <> I thought Z3 was a relay machine, not electronic. < <> [Distinction. Relay - switching is performed by moving parts of the <> circuit. Electronic, whether tubes or solid state, switching acts <> directly on the electrons (or holes), hence the term] Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree. Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of diodes and neon filled tubes. Allison From mallison at konnections.com Fri Jun 19 09:10:47 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Pamela Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Message-ID: <01BD9B5B.49E33C40@ip185-213.konnections.com> They're on the web at: www.sunrem.com Mike ---------- From: Ken Yaksa Sent: Friday, June 19, 1998 2:06 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Hi Pamela Allison: > If you can't find one, check with Sun Remarketing in Smithfield Utah. They will sell all the way back to version 3.2 on 400 k disks. But the problem is that I live in Hong Kong.... :( From mallison at konnections.com Fri Jun 19 09:36:41 1998 From: mallison at konnections.com (Pamela Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: 8008 Datasheets Message-ID: <01BD9B5D.6C06F120@ip185-213.konnections.com> You might want to check out the MDP-8008 Assembler Users Manual at: http://jldh449-1.intmed.mcw.edu/assembler-doc.html -Mike ---------- From: dave dameron Sent: Thursday, June 18, 1998 5:47 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: 8008 Datasheets Hi Doug and all, At 05:04 PM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >Does anybody have Intel 8008 datasheets that they're willing to copy for >me? I'll gladly pay for the copying/shipping. > > I have a bunch of stuff on the 8008, some too much for me to easily copy completely, including the MCS-8 8008 Users Manual (126 pages). In the 1976 Intel Data catalog, there is a 7 page data sheet: Page 1 Title and block diag. page 2 Photomicrograph Page 3 Functional pin description Page 4,5 Instruction set Page 6 Ratings, D.C., A.C. characteristics Page 7 Timing Diagram -Dave From adept at Mcs.Net Fri Jun 19 09:40:28 1998 From: adept at Mcs.Net (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: wet disks In-Reply-To: <3589D777.D496BC1A@halcyon.com> Message-ID: I acquired a load of C64 disks some time back that were all completely soaked. I just let them sit for a couple weeks in my basement and they worked just fine. Dan On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, David C. Jenner wrote: > Normally you need to "freeze dry" something like this. That means > slightly heating it (heat lamp through a window into the Bell jar or > vacuum chamber) and having a "cold trap", which is a cold surface > to freeze off all the moisture. You don't wantt to run all the moisture > through the mechanical pump. It takes a good, two-stage mechanical > pump to do it. You probably need to get down to about 200 microns > to freeze it all off. When you suddenly get lower pressures, you know > you're done. > > Dave > > George Rachor wrote: > > > > Greetings Max, > > > > Any chance of using a Bell jar at a local school to create a vaccum to > > draw out all the moisture? > > > > If so do it very slowly.... > > > > George > > > > ========================================================= > > George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com > > > > On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I just picked up a bag full of 5.25" disks, that are completely > > > soaked by rain. How do I dry them so that > > > a)they are usable at least long enough to transfer the software > > > b)I run a reasonable chance of saving the labels > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > From kyrrin at jps.net Fri Jun 19 09:42:38 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <3589D3B5.AC7@gamewood.net> References: <3.0.32.19980618224943.006b9d6c@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980619074238.00e6d690@mail.jps.net> At 22:57 18-06-98 -0400, you wrote: >I _think_ you guys are confusing a refrence to 'tape' (sticky, sealing, >scotch, etc.), with 'TAPE' (recording). Ya know, I got that two minutes after I sent my reply. Oops! ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From franke at sbs.de Fri Jun 19 11:52:06 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806191439.QAA17992@marina.fth.sbs.de> ><> And (though no doubt I'll find I'm wrong when I look at those web pages ><> I thought Z3 was a relay machine, not electronic. ><> [Distinction. Relay - switching is performed by moving parts of the ><> circuit. Electronic, whether tubes or solid state, switching acts ><> directly on the electrons (or holes), hence the term] > Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels > Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree. > Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of > diodes and neon filled tubes. A good definition, I could agree, althrough I've seen Electric and Electronic the same, since a relay isn't diferent from a transistor or a tube for the effekt (beside the current). Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 19 08:48:58 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: FS: (cheep!) HP Controller 362 In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980614162843.006af958@netpath.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980619084858.48df048c@intellistar.net> John, Have you mailed the 362 yet? I'm eager to try it out. You should have the Grid manuals by now. Are they what you wanted? Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 19 09:03:55 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Another Atari Achievement... In-Reply-To: <358A1150.1091FF16@cnct.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980618092253.00bb6290@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980619090355.00be7b10@pc> At 03:20 AM 6/19/98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >No, Charles Moore created FORTH as a notation system for teaching >mathematics -- it just happened that when the notation system was >converted to a programming language that it became handy for such >things as controlling telescopes. Far be it from Ward to be contrarian, I'm sure. :-) So you're saying he created an alternative math notation, called it FORTH, then decided it would be a good computer language which fortunately could use the same name, huh? - John Jefferson Computer Museum From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 19 09:03:40 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Inventory compaction In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980618222035.2c4f3d0a@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.2.32.19980618081651.006905f0@mail.wincom.net> <3.0.1.16.19980617114750.2fefcfb4@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980619090340.00c9a910@pc> At 10:20 PM 6/18/98, Joe wrote: >At 08:16 AM 6/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >>At 11:47 AM 6/17/98, you wrote: >>>At 10:33 AM 6/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>>> My mom got fed up by the amount of junk I have in my room, so I will >>>>> start to get rid of it (something I'd been planning to do). >>>> >>>>My girlfriend's getting fed up by the amount of junk I have in our >> >> You fellows think you have a problem!! If MY girlfriend would get her >>stuff out of my garage I could store more old computers!! I must've accumulated enough Good Husband Points, because my wife said I could use the two apartments above our office building as the Jefferson Computer Museum. Perhaps it has something to do with overflowing the back room upstairs and store rooms downstairs. :-) - John Jefferson Computer Museum From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Fri Jun 19 09:57:06 1998 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! In-Reply-To: <199806190818.QAA24066@imsp015.netvigator.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Ken Yaksa wrote: > Umm.... If there has any method to build up the Mac Discs on a PC?? The low level format of Macintosh and IBM PC-clone 1.44 MB floppy disks is the same; therefore, it is possible, but probably not trivial to do with the images that Apple has on their FTP site. I once downloaded the Macintosh system software variants that Apple makes available, then used a Mac to make disks from the image files, then made images of the resulting disks using dd (on a Linux box). The resulting images can be copied back to floppy disks using dd (or rawrite under MS-DOS). Kind of a handy way to avoid needing a working Mac to make the disks to get a Mac working. Unfortunately, I don't think Apple allows redistribution of their OS by third parties, so I've kept these images to myself. Does anyone know the format of Macintosh Disk Copy 4.x images? If this program is doing the obvious thing and simply storing a raw dump of the disk's contents in the data fork, then it should be possible to make Macintosh disks from these images using rawrite or dd, provided that a means exists on your platform of choice for extracting the image file from the compressed archive provided by Apple. Note that 400k/800k Macintosh disks cannot be written to or read by IBM PC-clone hardware, so you're out of luck if your Mac isn't equipped with a DS/HD (or FDHD, in Applespeak) drive. -- Scott Ware ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Jun 19 09:58:01 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: 8008 Datasheets Message-ID: <199806191458.HAA29592@sweden.it.earthlink.net> At 02:04 AM 6/19/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, dave dameron wrote: > >> I have a bunch of stuff on the 8008, some too much for me to easily copy >> completely, including the MCS-8 8008 Users Manual (126 pages). > >That sounds interesting. How much of that is just instruction set? If >that chapter is smallish, a copy would be great! I'm looking for info >sufficient to write a simulator, so ISA + exceptions/interrupts/etc. >should do the trick. > The stuff on instructions, timing states, interrupts, etc. is about 12 pages. The 8008 instructions (48) are simple enough that someone just learning how to write a computer program (Me back then) could understand all of them. Interesting, back then, 1973, Intel sold a simulator as a Fortran IV program, or it could be run on a time-share service. Also a cross assembler. The resident assembler took 2k - 8 1702 EPROMS for their SIM8 microcomputer board. >> In the 1976 Intel Data catalog, there is a 7 page data sheet: >> Page 1 Title and block diag. >> page 2 Photomicrograph >> Page 3 Functional pin description >> Page 4,5 Instruction set >> Page 6 Ratings, D.C., A.C. characteristics >> Page 7 Timing Diagram > >Good stuff, but I've already had one offer for a copy. Since it's small, >I'll try to get around to web-izing it. (Intel copyright lawyers be >damned! (At least until they ask me to take it down.)) > >-- Doug > -Dave From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 19 11:16:44 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:41 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <9805198982.AA898298216@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >> Ooh! Not so fast! Is it straight, helical, worm or hypoid? Or an >> eliptical gear even? But yes, a gear is easy to rconstruct from its >> wreckage. > > Well, obviously one replaces with the correct type of gear! > >> Some cams and levers, though, have quite tight tolerance >> spikes and notches which it is quite difficult to get right from seeing >> the bent/broken ones. > > Impossible, sometimes. What if a special "hump" on a cam is so worn down > that one cannot reconstruct its shape? Some of the correct "shape" could > exist as aluminum powder. That's what I meant. Tony was saying - and rightly so - that while you can often see what a failed mechanical part was meant to be like by studying the failed component, and can then cut a new gear (the assumption was the gear isn't a standard part) / lever / cam or whatever, you can't possibly tell what a dead chip was meant to do just by looking at it. Likewise you can't tell what the value of that charred resistor used to be... I merely pointed out that with some tight tolerance cams and levers, you have a similar problem - you can't tell by looking. "Difficult" in my line above was a euphemism for "no hope" >> Bearing in mind Tony's, Sam's and others' comments on intermittent >> faults and the like, yes, up to a point. Video is not the only >> exception, though - other things (e.g. disk drives) can suffer >> similarly. > > No, not disk drives. Sure, some analog circuitry in a drive might go sour, > but those faults would result in bad data. With a working drive, you want > correct data, and if you do not get it, something is wrong. There is no > tolerance. With an analog system, you have to expect that the output data > will not be perfect. For example (also a magnetic recording medium), > playing back a signal will never be the same as what was recorded, due to > noise and distortion. True, every word. But if you draw the distinction there - digital vs. analogue circuitry - the comment to which I was replying deserves your reply as well. The previous poster (wasn't you, William, was it?) drew the distinction at a higher level, and said something like "a digital _machine_ either works or it doesn't. Apart from video, the results are either right or wrong. With analogue/mechanical, things can be slightly out but the machine will go on working" Video is another analogue subsystem in a digital machine, just like a disk drive, and all that that implies... BTW, video may not make the change from digital to analogue until actually in the monitor, but the same applies - that which you see on the display is (at the digital level) either right or wrong. It is only when you get to the analogue bit that it is merely fuzzy. Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 19 11:22:06 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Robotron Message-ID: <9805198982.AA898298579@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Sorry, folks. We have some intermittent mail problems here and I accidentally got set to POSTPONE again. If Hans Franke (or anyone else) has posted a reply to my Robotron query, please send me - privately - another copy. Address, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk Thanks. Philip. From cfandt at servtech.com Fri Jun 19 10:48:07 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: HP 9825 configurrationss In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980618215324.2c4f4c2e@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980617193458.2e9fd2c0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199806191548.PAA24550@cyber2.servtech.com> At 21:53 18-06-98 +0000, Joe wrote: >At 02:50 AM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >>On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Doug wrote: >> >> >>Fixing my stuck "execute" key looks like it'll be a bastard too. It's not >>stuck, the "snap" mechanism appears to be simply gone (not easily >>explained since the keyboard appears to be a tight sandwich). I hope that >>key isn't important in the big scheme of things, but I have a nagging >>suspicion that it's needed to program. > > Yes, it's important. You press it to execute an expression immediately. >You press ENTER (or STORE? I haven't used it in a while) to enter the >expression into a stored program. > > Joe > At work we had a 9825S. Now that's another letter variant you folks had't mentioned I think which is actually a full-option "A" model same as the "T" is a full-option "B" model. It originally had the calculator-style kbd before I later replaced it with a full-travel kbd. Incidentally, that newer kbd was built by Cherry for HP. Anyway, one of the keys became 'stuck'. Probably the Execute key IIRC (this was arounfd '82-'84). Being myself just like Tony Duell, I removed the upper front portion of the case and found it was able to be completely dismantled. Well, we were absolutely dead in the water anyway as this was a critical production machine that ran a laser interferometer encoder calibration machine (we make linear encoders for mostly the machine tool industry), so I grabbed my small Philips screwdriver and had at it. I found that each of the key contacts were actually a strip of metal about, IIRC, 3mm or 4mm wide x 12mm long. The strip had been formed into an arch which would stand about 1mm above the surface it was setting upon. On the keyboard assembly's PC board, each keysite had one of these arch-like strips spotwelded to its respective PC board pads. When assembled, each key cap had a small boss on its bottom that when pushed down against its respective arch-like strip would cause the center of that strip to snap down onto a contact pad on the kbd PC board. The strip acted like the bottom of an old-fashioned oil can when the user wanted to squirt some oil into his machinery or whatever as it would pop down and pop back with a definite 'snap'-action. The strip "oil-canned" as we older engineers and mechanics called it. On that kaput keysite, one end's weld failed and had popped off -most likely from thousands of operations over 6 to 8 years of use. Well, to get the thing back into production I simply grabbed my small Weller soldering pencil, jigged up the strip so it would reform its arch, held down the broken end with a needle-like tool and soldered the danged thing down. I reassembled the kbd (IIRC there were a LOT of small screws and keycaps, etc.), put it back into the machine, fired it up and lo! we have Execute! The key action was not as crisp as original as the solder fillet had crept about one mm under the strip. But it worked. Later, I checked with HP for a replacement kbd as I wasn't sure how long the fix would last nor if there would be any other key collapses. The replacement was the the Cherry-type kbd retrofit kit (for around $450 IIRC) which was the normal issue kbd for the later "B/T" machines. This may explain why some folks report a newer style 'full travel' keyboard on their "A" and "S" model 9825's. The front-top of the 9825's case had to be replaced as the kbd openings were different. I'm not sure, I'll have to check for sure, but I *think* the name of the machine ("9825B") is moulded into that case part. If that's the case, that *may* be why Joe's and Doug's machines seem to be an "upgraded" A model (Quote from Doug's previous msg: "AFAICT, it started life as a 9825A in 1979 and then got upgraded to a B/T sometime in 1982 or later.") Yep. Kinda sounds like mine. We bought the replacement and I kept the old kbd. I'm a certified Packrat! I'm not sure if I still have it but I may run into it when I move a *heap* of remaining stuff out of our old house and cram it into the new house in the next weeks. I am almost sure it still worked. I have both the 9825S which is the above subject and a later 9825T now in my collection. I have to check which, but one of them had it's power supply fail in such a way that the +5V rail had the full raw DC slammed onto it. Smoke City. The HP service manager in the HP/Paramus facility grumbled that he'd seen this several times before. He groused that the designers never put in a crowbar protection circuit to prevent this from happening. You see, the power supply is a DC/switching style. There was a transformer, rectifier diodes and filter capacitor that provided raw DC (about +16 volts? Gotta check my docs.) The regulation was through a PWM-switched series-pass transistor to provide +5 volts. The pass transistor failed in a short circuit mode and you know what happened next :-( Every board shot, tape drive shot, display shot, printer shot. Dang. About $2000 or $3000 worth of replacement PC boards. That is IF they were even available. It was an old machine barely supported by HP at that time. Not worth it for sure. Time to move to a 'modern' platform -a PC. Mixed feelings there. Don't be too surprised if any of you 9825 folks experience this. I darn well hope not though! I *might* whip up some sort of crowbar for my good 9825 if it won't cobb-up things too much. Being a little gunshy from past bad experience kinda makes me want to do that. I can dig out those machines and my documentation and notes to answer questions if any others here don't have the answer. Doug, if you want me to give your "stuck" key a shot at repair let me know. That is, if it's the older style kbd. I don't think you were clear as to which style it was, IIRC. It will be some time before I get my workshop rebuilt into the new house (maybe toward fall or even winter), but I'm willing to try it for you as I'd done before at work. Joe, I printed out your msg giving your 9825 configurations. I'll check it with my two 9825's to see how things compare. Doug, in your http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/hp/ page you have refrences to articles listed in the June 76 HP Journal. I'm interested in that info as you'd imagine. Is it online at HP or anywhere or do you have the issue? If you have the issue could you make xerographic copies of those articles for me (if otherwise not on a webpage)? Lemme know on both the kbd fix and HPJ articles. Thanks, --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 19 10:53:01 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Another Atari Achievement... In-Reply-To: <358A1150.1091FF16@cnct.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980618092253.00bb6290@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980619105301.2f0f7006@intellistar.net> At 03:20 AM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote: > >No, Charles Moore created FORTH as a notation system for teaching >mathematics -- it just happened that when the notation system was >converted to a programming language that it became handy for such >things as controlling telescopes. >-- Are you sure you're not confusing it with Ken Iverson and APL? He created it as a mathematical teaching language. Joe From cfandt at servtech.com Fri Jun 19 11:54:59 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Website status? Message-ID: <199806191655.QAA26121@cyber2.servtech.com> Hey gang! Several times during the past week or ten days I've tried to connect to the ClassicCmp website http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp but never seemed to be up. Always got a message after Netscape timed out suggesting the web server is either down or not responding. Anybody know what's happening? Thanks, --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From dastar at wco.com Fri Jun 19 12:17:55 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Website status? In-Reply-To: <199806191655.QAA26121@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > Several times during the past week or ten days I've tried to connect to the > ClassicCmp website http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp but > never seemed to be up. Always got a message after Netscape timed out > suggesting the web server is either down or not responding. Anybody know > what's happening? The official ClassicCmp web page is generally acknowledged to be comatose with a small chance of recovering from this state. Try the alternative web sites, which I of course fail to note down everytime they are posted. Someone else will jump in here in a second I'm sure. In the interim you could do a web search and find the alternate sites. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From red at bears.org Fri Jun 19 12:52:55 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! In-Reply-To: <199806190818.QAA24066@imsp015.netvigator.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Ken Yaksa wrote: > Umm.... If there has any method to build up the Mac Discs on a PC?? There is a shareware Windows application out there called WinImage (winimg*.zip) that I have used to write out 1.4 MB Macintosh disk images. As my SE/30 has a problem that renders its disk drive read-only, this has saved me on a number of occasions. I can't remember offhand where I found it, but a web search should be sufficient to locate it again. ok r. From cfandt at servtech.com Fri Jun 19 13:07:47 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater ar In-Reply-To: <199806191311.PAA11508@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <199806191808.SAA27690@cyber2.servtech.com> At 15:24 19-06-98 +0001, "Hans Franke" wrote: > >Hard, I own 2 Robotron PCs (one Z80 CP/M system and one PC Clone), >but since I live in Muenchen (:), I'm not in the 'native Environment' ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >of Robotron clasics. But maybe I could forward your questuons to some >east German friends. > >Servus >Hans > >-- >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > Well, Hans, I *thought* you had to be Bavarian (Bayerische)!! Either that or perhaps Austrian because of your signoff ("Servus"). I have many friends down in Trostberg/Traureut/Traunstein area both inside and outside of the parent company (Dr. Joh. Heidenhain GmbH, Traureut) that I work for in Jamestown. I always enjoy visiting the Chiemgau and Muenchen. Will be over again in one year or more. Great to have you on the list as I've not seen postings of yours since the time I had joined last November until recently I think. Good to have a person in our group who is nearby to the Deutches Museum who seems to have a very good early computer collection (saw it in 1994 or 95. Been there four times since '93). Wish I knew enough German to actually speak it but Bayerische is even harder to understand ;) Gruss! Bis spaeter, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From jon at techniche.com Fri Jun 19 13:24:37 1998 From: jon at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired Message-ID: <199806191824.OAA16336@camel7.mindspring.com> Hi, Well this just goes to show how innate this collecting behavior is or maybe I could blame it on altruism? I went back to the surplus store today and picked up the old HP system that was there. This was not as simple as it sounds. The system was wired into a 5 bay 19" rack assemblage. The item obtained is an "HP 2100S Microprogrammable Systems Computer". It looks just like the 2100A shown at: www.trailingedge.com The card cage is fully populated but I haven't a clue at this point with what, with the exception that I already know it does have an async card (with associated moniter) and a GPIB card (and cable). I don't know what condition this is in other than the whole rack of equipment looks like it was decomissioned while still working. Most parts were still wired up. It hadn't been plundered (one or two rack slots were newly emptied). This unit appears to be in good shape. No dents or bent edges. One of the front switch covers is missing (these look like they pop off for lamp replacement). I even have the key for the power lock, an obvious indication that it has been taken care of! There was another expansion card frame in the same rack. Similar box but with no front panel switches. I didn't get this. It is probably still available. I also didn't get any of the i/o card edge connector cables that connect to the other equipment in the 5 bay unit. As it was it took me over an hour to extract this thing from its nest. I did take the GPIB and async i/o cables. Anyone interested in trading something for this beast? The biggest problem I see is that this thing weights about 100 lbs. It would be expensive to ship. Jon From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 19 13:25:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806191825.AA11247@world.std.com> <> Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels <> Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree. <> Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of <> diodes and neon filled tubes. < from "Joe" at Jun 19, 98 08:48:58 am Message-ID: <199806191826.NAA13452@maddog.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I think you have me confused with someone else, I was asking about your HP Integrals. John > > John, > > Have you mailed the 362 yet? I'm eager to try it out. > > You should have the Grid manuals by now. Are they what you wanted? > > Joe > > > > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From rax at warbaby.com Fri Jun 19 14:40:37 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <199806191233.OAA08631@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: Hans wrote: >I never heard of it, but maybe he thought about some >machine in his time as Imperial Mathematician in Prag >(1601..1612 - nice history on >http://www.kepler.arc.nasa.gov/johannes.html >) - but afaik the idea of calculating machines >did recive more attention (althrough more seen >as scince fiction) after the invention of the >Taschenuhr by Peter Heinlein (15something). > I've never heard of the Taschenuhr. Can anyone tell me more or direct me to a source of information? R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From franke at sbs.de Fri Jun 19 15:55:29 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <199806191842.UAA29184@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> >>Hard, I own 2 Robotron PCs (one Z80 CP/M system and one PC Clone), >>but since I live in Muenchen (:), I'm not in the 'native Environment' > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>of Robotron clasics. But maybe I could forward your questuons to some >>east German friends. > Well, Hans, I *thought* you had to be Bavarian (Bayerische)!! Either that > or perhaps Austrian because of your signoff ("Servus"). You're the first US citicen to recognize this :) > Will be over again in one year or more. Great - give me a call (or a mail :) and I'll show yo usome of my babys. > Great to have you on the list as I've not seen > postings of yours since the time I had joined last November until recently > I think. I just joined two weeks ago after Sam Ismail pointed me to the list (we had some discusion about VCF - I will come to see it - and other strange things). > Good to have a person in our group who is nearby to the Deutches > Museum who seems to have a very good early computer collection (saw it in > 1994 or 95. Been there four times since '93). You just searched a phon directory ? Didn't you ? Or who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ? True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance. Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_ unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build some junk place. Ok, I have to be fair - the dispaly is quite amazing, but in my opinion they ignored a lot of one-of-a-kind chances just to finish it for the grand opening. Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes - they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete, including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible, but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone will be here to tell the story. Oh, next time when you visit the Deutsches Museum, take a look at the Operator desk of the 2002 - you'll find a burned spot, done by a cigarette. I know the guilty one - a friend of mine, now retired, did it while they tried to find a power up problem at the main drum - he acidently left his cigaret at te desk and got so involved that he forgot it - BIG trouble. > Wish I knew enough German to > actually speak it but Bayerische is even harder to understand ;) Amazing - I always had problems the other way. > Gruss! Bis spaeter, Chris Jo bis nacha. Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jun 19 13:48:56 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: FS: (cheep!) HP Controller 362 In-Reply-To: <199806191826.NAA13452@maddog.ee.nd.edu> References: <3.0.1.16.19980619084858.48df048c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980619144856.008104b0@netpath.net> Msg was for me, I figure maybe Joe posted it to the list by mistake. At 01:26 PM 6/19/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hello - > >I think you have me confused with someone else, I was asking about >your HP Integrals. > >John >> >> John, >> >> Have you mailed the 362 yet? I'm eager to try it out. >> >> You should have the Grid manuals by now. Are they what you wanted? >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> > > >-- > >*********************************************************************** >* John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * >* Dept. Electrical Engineering * * >* 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * >* University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * >* Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * >*********************************************************************** > ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From franke at sbs.de Fri Jun 19 16:09:38 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806191857.UAA29649@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>I never heard of it, but maybe he thought about some >>machine in his time as Imperial Mathematician in Prag >>(1601..1612 - nice history on >>http://www.kepler.arc.nasa.gov/johannes.html >>) - but afaik the idea of calculating machines >>did recive more attention (althrough more seen >>as scince fiction) after the invention of the >>Taschenuhr by Peter Heinlein (15something). > I've never heard of the Taschenuhr. Can anyone tell me more or direct me to > a source of information? Taschenuhr -> fob watch. Peter Heinlein did the first clock small enough to fit in a pocket. It had the size of a big egg. I don't remember the exactr year, but I think it was in the first half of the 16th century. There are a lot of legendary stories around this device - inclundig the one that his whife had destroyed the first one, since she belived that this thing, going tick-tack must be devils work (remember 16th and 17th century was a or better _the_ high time of witch hunting and dark religous belives - Kepler for example had to defend is mother somewhen in the 1620s agains a triel of witchhood). So she destroyed his masterpice, and he let himself imprisson for the next few month in the city prison, to build a new one without beeing disturbed :) Building small time devices had an impact to trade like calculating machines in the early days of this century. Starting from coach clocks for merchants who lead their 'empire' from their coaches, until fob watches. in the 15th/16th century coach clock was an enormous expensive device - even compared th the expensiv travling coaces, a coach clock could cost up to 5 times the coach ! (Like wehn I put a new Server in my old car :) Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 19 14:14:58 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <9806190843.ZM1265@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I think that there are some exceptions to that Tony. The following is a > > clip from some correspondence with Chuck Guzis at Sydex a while back: > > > > "Another topic that I'd like to see some commentary on is how people > > have handled those old diskettes that lack the Index Address Mark > > information, such as those used on the Cromemco C10. On a PC > > controller, the first sector on a track on such a diskette usually falls > > to be seen by the FDC because it falls in the "blind spot" (ostensibly > > PLL sync-up time) of the 765-family chip. > > Have you tried using a controller that doesn't need the Index Address Mark, > such as a WD1772 or a NatSemi DP8473 ? Yes, I have several FDCs with the 8473 chip and they do the deed nicely! - don > > "But 3.5" diskette drives are too difficult to modify. We've had good > > read and write results by passing the index signal through a 1-shot > > carefully adjusted to trigger slightly ahead of the actual index > > position. But this is a very touchy arrangement, though it does work. > > But the Index Address Mark isn't part of the spec for 3.5" disks. I know > most PC controllers put it there, but it's not in the Sony spec, and some > controllers (see above) will work fine without it. > > > I know that I have experienced the problem of the first paragraph on more > > than the C10 disks. > > - don > > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 19 13:59:56 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Location, location, location! was Re: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: <199806191824.OAA16336@camel7.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980619135956.4457691a@intellistar.net> At 02:24 PM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote: Everything except where it is! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 19 14:03:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: FS: (cheep!) HP Controller 362 In-Reply-To: <199806191826.NAA13452@maddog.ee.nd.edu> References: <3.0.1.16.19980619084858.48df048c@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980619140311.38b7f87e@intellistar.net> John, Yes, somehow I got your address instead of the other guys. IPC's: I wrote you a fairly long reply a day or two ago, did you get it? I haven't really decided what's going and what I'm keeping. I'll add you to my wish list folder and let you know when I do. Joe From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 19 14:55:32 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! In-Reply-To: <199806190818.QAA24066@imsp015.netvigator.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Ken Yaksa wrote: > Hi there... > > > Actually you can get copies of 6.0.x and 7.0.x from one of their FTP > sites > > > ftp://ftp5.info.apple.com/Apple.Support.Area/Apple_SW_Updates/US/Macintosh/S > yste > > m/Older_System/ > > > > Of course you need a functional Mac to make the floppies. If you have > both > > hard drives, simply make sure the SCSI ID's are set to different numbers, > > and either leave both in the machine, or copy the 40Mb drive to the > larger > > one. Another more expensive alternative would be to get a external > CD-ROM > > and a copy of MacOS on CD. > > Umm.... If there has any method to build up the Mac Discs on a PC?? Yes, there is a free(?)/share(?)ware program named MAC-ETTE that will format, read, and write the 1.44mb Mac disks. The problem that most of us non-Mac yokels have is trying to figure out what goes in which fork! You should be abble to find it with a Web search. - don > Yours, > Ken Yaksa > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 19 15:00:39 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! In-Reply-To: <199806190826.QAA26325@imsp015.netvigator.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Ken Yaksa wrote: > Hi there... > > > If you still have the 40mb drive, set it for an ID other than 0 and > > connect it also. Then simply drag the system folder from the 40 to the > > new one. This assumes that the 40 had 7.5.x, of course. > > > > - don > > Don, Which is 7.5.1 in the 40M HDD... But, if there has any way for me to > get a 7.5.3 diskette version?? 7.0 is just.... Umm.... Ken, I would be inclined to make an early effort to get a communications program such as ZTERM on your Mac. With that and a modem, you can visit the Apple Website and ftp site. There are versions of some of the operating systems that can be d/l'd directly to the HD and do not need to be first converted to disk. - don From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 19 15:06:44 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Message-ID: for compact mac goodies, check out www.eden.com/~arena/jagshouse i believe therewas some older system software there as well as some interesting programs. be sure to get and run despair.sit; its the best one. lol. david From dastar at wco.com Fri Jun 19 15:11:18 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: FS: (cheep!) HP Controller 362 In-Reply-To: <199806191826.NAA13452@maddog.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: Just a reminder to everyone... Could you please keep your personal conversations in private e-mail? Thanks! On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, John Ott wrote: > Hello - > > I think you have me confused with someone else, I was asking about > your HP Integrals. > > John > > > > John, > > > > Have you mailed the 362 yet? I'm eager to try it out. > > > > You should have the Grid manuals by now. Are they what you wanted? > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > *********************************************************************** > * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * > * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * > * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * > * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * > * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * > *********************************************************************** > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From william at ans.net Fri Jun 19 15:30:13 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <9805198982.AA898298216@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: > I merely pointed out that with some tight tolerance cams and levers, you > have a similar problem - you can't tell by looking. "Difficult" in my > line above was a euphemism for "no hope" Oh, OK, that is clearer now. > True, every word. But if you draw the distinction there - digital vs. > analogue circuitry - the comment to which I was replying deserves your > reply as well. The previous poster (wasn't you, William, was it?) drew > the distinction at a higher level, and said something like "a digital > _machine_ either works or it doesn't. Apart from video, the results are > either right or wrong. With analogue/mechanical, things can be slightly > out but the machine will go on working" Video is another analogue > subsystem in a digital machine, just like a disk drive, and all that > that implies... Yes, but everything is analog, including our favorite CPUs. Remember, you can get a CMOS 4049 hex buffer to act as a (poor) amplifier! Video, however, does not output digital results. Digital in, real world out. Disk drives, when viewed as black boxes, are completely digital. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jon at techniche.com Fri Jun 19 15:35:30 1998 From: jon at techniche.com (Jon Healey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Location, location, location! was Re: More stuff acquired Message-ID: <199806192035.QAA19409@camel8.mindspring.com> I think the attached was directed at me.....and deservingly so. The HP 2100S is at my offices in Manchester, NH. We're right across the street from the airport. You could just fly in pick it up, carry it on (yea sure) and be gone in a flash. Jon >At 02:24 PM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote: > > Everything except where it is! > > From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 19 16:06:05 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Website status? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > The official ClassicCmp web page is generally acknowledged to be comatose > with a small chance of recovering from this state. > > Try the alternative web sites, which I of course fail to note down > everytime they are posted. Someone else will jump in here in a second I'm > sure. In the interim you could do a web search and find the alternate > sites. I have never seen the original web site nor do I know of any mirrors, but I do keep a copy of the old FAQ at my "unpublished" site: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/ -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 19 16:23:20 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: HP 9825 configurrationss In-Reply-To: <199806191548.PAA24550@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > I found that each of the key contacts were actually a strip of metal about, > IIRC, 3mm or 4mm wide x 12mm long. The strip had been formed into an arch > which would stand about 1mm above the surface it was setting upon. On the > keyboard assembly's PC board, each keysite had one of these arch-like > strips spotwelded to its respective PC board pads. When assembled, each key > cap had a small boss on its bottom that when pushed down against its > respective arch-like strip would cause the center of that strip to snap > down onto a contact pad on the kbd PC board. The strip acted like the > bottom of an old-fashioned oil can when the user wanted to squirt some oil > into his machinery or whatever as it would pop down and pop back with a > definite 'snap'-action. The strip "oil-canned" as we older engineers and > mechanics called it. I removed the keyboard assembly the other night, but I have not been able to separate the PCB from the mechanical layer -- even after removing the dozen or so jewelers screws, the thing appears to be riveted together. I was able to life the "execute" keycap enough to see that the "snap" strip is simply gone. > We bought the replacement and I kept the old kbd. I'm a certified Packrat! > I'm not sure if I still have it but I may run into it when I move a *heap* > of remaining stuff out of our old house and cram it into the new house in > the next weeks. I am almost sure it still worked. Even though we both had the same key die, I'd be interested in that spare keyboard if you ever find it and can bring yourself to part with it. I figure I can canabalize one of the other keys, or simply replace mine with yours since it sounds like your keyboard was basically functional when removed. I hate it when this happens. I've got an otherwise perfect machine that is rendered basically useless by a small dead $0.01 switch. I'll try to rig something up, but without being able to get that keyboard apart, I only have a few microns of work space! -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 19 12:39:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980618194433.00e65100@mail.jps.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Jun 18, 98 07:44:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1557 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980619/60174d93/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 19 12:48:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jun 18, 98 10:54:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2530 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980619/8fc19fae/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 19 13:15:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: HP 9825 configurrationss In-Reply-To: <199806191548.PAA24550@cyber2.servtech.com> from "Christian Fandt" at Jun 19, 98 11:48:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3061 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980619/c591b8b7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 19 13:01:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <199806191231.IAA04475@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Jun 19, 98 08:31:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 722 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980619/47b2fdee/attachment.ksh From cfandt at servtech.com Fri Jun 19 16:44:08 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Munich Museum Re: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <199806191842.UAA29184@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <199806192144.VAA03153@cyber2.servtech.com> Servus Hans! At 20:56 19-06-98 +0001, you wrote: >>> >>>Hard, I own 2 Robotron PCs (one Z80 CP/M system and one PC Clone), >>>but since I live in Muenchen (:), I'm not in the 'native Environment' >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>of Robotron clasics. But maybe I could forward your questuons to some >>>east German friends. > >> Well, Hans, I *thought* you had to be Bavarian (Bayerische)!! Either that >> or perhaps Austrian because of your signoff ("Servus"). > >You're the first US citicen to recognize this :) Being in close communication with my friends and their families in Bayern, I had the language experience to pick up on "Servus". Unfortunately, I do not visit Germany enough to grow my ability to understand German and Bayerische -not to mention read it well and speak it! But with technical German, I can make out pretty well most of the time reading. I can also get something out of Hoch Deutsch when I listen to TV or radio. I never had German taught to me in school, only French which I never used and forgot most of. > >> Will be over again in one year or more. > >Great - give me a call (or a mail :) and I'll show yo usome >of my babys. Same here for sure! But we are located a little off the normal path of international travelers to the States unless you come to Niagara Falls (only 155 km from my home). The Falls are impressive to just watch while quietly sitting in the nearby park! To me, it is just like driving toward Salzburg on route #304 just past Inzell on the way to Koenigsee on a beautiful day! Sehr gemuetlich! > >> Great to have you on the list as I've not seen >> postings of yours since the time I had joined last November until recently >> I think. > >I just joined two weeks ago after Sam Ismail pointed >me to the list (we had some discusion about VCF - I >will come to see it - and other strange things). Thanks Sam! And yes, you can certainly see 'strange things' here in the States as some of us can verify! Ask about cow chip throwing contests, etc. > >> Good to have a person in our group who is nearby to the Deutches >> Museum who seems to have a very good early computer collection (saw it in >> 1994 or 95. Been there four times since '93). > >You just searched a phon directory ? Didn't you ? Or >who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ? >True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance. No-no. You said you lived in Muenchen (Munich, to most others here) as per the message piece of yours still quoted above.... Therefore, if you simply live in Muenchen, then you live close to the museum, especially when you compare your distance to the dist. away of nearly all of us on this list! > >Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite >good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display >is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer >displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_ >unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build >some junk place. > >Ok, I have to be fair - the dispaly is quite amazing, but >in my opinion they ignored a lot of one-of-a-kind chances >just to finish it for the grand opening. I agree about the display but unfortunately, my memory of it is slowly disappearing :( I do definitely recall seeing the Zuse display and was rather surprised. Back in the year when I saw the Informatik Sektion (had to be in '94, not '95 as I tried to guess in previous message), I had not been seriously interested in studying computer history -my main concentration (and still is) is early radio and television electronics and early electricity. Therefore, I had not been paying attention to earliest computing history and Zuse was an interesting part of computing history that pushed me more toward where I am now. Now, I'm really interested in study of certain aspects of computing and must go back to Deutsches Museum to discover more. When was the Grand Opening? BTW, the museum URL is for those who may be interested. Click on the British flag for English pages. In reference to another thread started by Tim H. ("What is the first computer?") check out the early calculator: Leibniz-Rechenmaschine, um (from)1700 at: and a few pictures of early vacuum tube (valve) computers at: Unfortunately, these pages are in German, but some info may be extracted. Also, only a few examples are shown but I think these pages are not meant for the 'normal', non-technical person who would be browsing the museum site or just fall into it during heavy 'net surfing. Seems I recall several IBM machines on display other than the Zuse machines during that visit: a 704, 360 console, Cray 1 and several others. Is my memory correct on the first two Hans? My wife and I will go back to see that section as she didn't see that when we were there together in Sept. '96. I did like their early TV display in the Telekomm Sektion. TV history is a strong interest for me. It was rather complete, in my opinion, spanning the technological history from the Nipkow Scanning Disk to Jenkins and Baird for their mechanical TV's and through Zworkyn and Farnsworth. Imagine today if Zworkyn or anybody else had not developed the electronic cathode ray tube or if Farnsworth had not developed his Image Dissector (an electronic method for converting an image to a signal): Our computers (and TV's) would have some sort of mechanical device to cause an image to be scanned on a screen in front of us which was transmitted from a source which also used a mechanical scanning device to convert the image to a signal :) There is also a _real_ Paulson Arc Transmitter from around 1912 in that section. Fantastic! I've always read about them used in the States but never saw one. As far as I know none exist over here now. > >Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first >fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes - >they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete, >including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would >have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and >power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible, >but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old >tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone >will be here to tell the story. Exactly! This about what had been discussed some weeks back as to museums preserving their artifacts. The archives of this list are posted somewhere (other than the now-kaput ClassicCmp website. Where now?) and you can catch up. Is there some way you can help make this happen even though you are not closely connected to the museum now? A _complete, running_ machine is to me far more valuable as an artifact of technical history than a cut-down static display ever would be. That plain IBM 360(?) console setting alone near the Cray 1 comes to mind.... Some of us in the radio collecting hobby have been trying to gather info directly from the engineers and technicians who actually designed and built radio/TV equipment before they are gone. We do have some significant work done in this area. We have extremely important artifacts and documentation, both in museums and private collections, regarding inventions and technology of communications. Let's all continue to do the same for computing as best we can! >Oh, next time when you visit the Deutsches Museum, take a >look at the Operator desk of the 2002 - you'll find a burned >spot, done by a cigarette. I know the guilty one - a friend >of mine, now retired, did it while they tried to find a power >up problem at the main drum - he acidently left his cigaret >at te desk and got so involved that he forgot it - BIG trouble. Interesting story which is now part of the "fabric" of its history. >> Wish I knew enough German to >> actually speak it but Bayerische is even harder to understand ;) > >Amazing - I always had problems the other way. That's what my friends from Bayern say after they have visited the northern parts of Germany and hear Preissen Sprache; Plattdeutsche besonders!! > >> Gruss! Bis spaeter, Chris > >Jo bis nacha. > >Servus >Hans > >-- >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > Gruss, Chris -- -- ======================================================= Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian 31 Houston Avenue, WE Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home Jamestown, New York +716-661-1832 -Office 14701-2627 USA Fax: +716-661-1888 -Office fax email: cfandt@servtech.com Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Jun 19 17:20:10 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Need help with Mac Classic Message-ID: <199806192220.AA21928@world.std.com> Thanks VERY much, Bill... I am interested... Megan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 19 17:41:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <199806191842.UAA29184@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 19, 98 08:56:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3879 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980619/1d197cda/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 19 20:03:06 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: wnated manuals for HP 9915 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980619200306.39ef0afe@intellistar.net> The title says it all. I'm looking for ANY documentation for the HP 9915. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 19 20:13:00 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: wnated manuals for HP 9915 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980619200306.39ef0afe@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 19, 98 08:03:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 221 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980620/c3dad8a7/attachment.ksh From foxnhare at goldrush.com Thu Jun 18 23:25:59 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... References: <199806180702.AAA10330@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3589E856.EEA0F88A@goldrush.com> From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk Subject: Re[2]: CP/M > Likewise the Commodore 8-bitters. In the early 1980s, I was one of the > first in my school (I was 14 or so at the time) to own a floppy disk > (yes, a disk, not a drive). Gosh what memories, did you lug around a box of cassettes too??? Yeah, disks back then were about $5.00 (US) a shot [not to be confused with ammunition in previous off topics, though I can wield a mean VIC-20] for the cheap SS/SD ones. New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did you guys carry around to start out with? I started with cassettes for the PETs at high school, though not as old as some but still nostalgic. I still have my original first tape, though it had been transfered to a new housing and snaps when a good (assertive?) datasette rewinds it, it is still readable. -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Jun 19 21:20:26 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: fire control computers? Message-ID: <19980619192026.0b428b79.in@mail.pressstart.com> "Max Eskin" said: >Do you have any diagrams of the mechanical fire control computers? Try going to your local Federal building and look for the Goverment Book Store. There you can find many different military training manuals. Look for Navy manuals for Fire Control Technician 3 and 2. If you can find it, it should have plenty of information on mechanical fire control computers (At least they did 30 years ago). I'm sure the Navy still uses these kind of computers on older ships with 5" guns. ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 19 20:52:49 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: More stuff acquired In-Reply-To: jon@techniche.com's message of Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:24:37 -0400 (EDT) References: <199806191824.OAA16336@camel7.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199806200152.SAA03844@daemonweed.reanimators.org> jon@techniche.com (Jon Healey) wrote: > I went back to the surplus store today and picked up > the old HP system that was there. This was not as simple > as it sounds. The system was wired into a 5 bay 19" rack > assemblage. It reads to me like what you got was the *processor*. And I have to wonder, why did you take it out? OK, I understand for transport but you also wrote that there was an expansion card frame (which might have more I/O cards) and other units in the rack. They may not be essential to operation of the processor but they probably do go together. Processors ain't everything ya know. > The item obtained is an "HP 2100S Microprogrammable Systems Computer". > It looks just like the 2100A shown at: www.trailingedge.com > > The card cage is fully populated but I haven't a clue at this > point with what, with the exception that I already know it does > have an async card (with associated moniter) and a GPIB > card (and cable). OK. If you take the top off, the cards in in the wider cage right behind the front panel are the CPU proper (in slots 1-7 I think, with options in 8 and 9 and maybe 10, though I may be off by one or two here -- it's been a while since I looked) and the I/O interfaces. The cards in the narrower cage about halfway back are memory (core) and drivers for same. The not-card-cage areas contain power supply and fans. There should be part numbers and legends on at least some of the card ears that give some clues what the cards are/do. Also the cards themselves will often have part numbers etched. Of course I don't have my books handy so can't post a handy decoder chart just now (and doubt it would be complete even if I did). Feel free to post a list, then sit back and watch us guess what you've got. Given that this one says "Microprogrammable" on the front panel I wonder if it has the WCS (Writable Control Store) option. All that said...the 2100 is a second-generation HP mini from 1972, the follow-on to the 2116/2115/2114 and predecessor to the 21MX that came later in the 1970s. These processors formed the basis of the HP2000 time-shared BASIC and HP1000 real-time computer lines, as well as many other special-purpose computer systems that HP developed and sold. Overall they are a 16-bit two-accumulator architecture; the 2100 is part hard-wired part microcoded with room for growth in the microcode, while the earlier 2116/2115/2114 were purely hard-wired processors. > Anyone interested in trading something for this beast? > > The biggest problem I see is that this thing weights > about 100 lbs. It would be expensive to ship. I'm interested but am thinking that you're in New Hampshire and I'm in California. Shipping is possible but you're right, you can't just toss this in a cardboard box with some peanuts or bubblewrap, so if someone closer by says the magic words ("I'll come pick it up") or you decide you want to keep it I'd say go for it. Besides, I'd want you to go back for the rest of it. Foo, I want you to go back for the rest of it *anyway*. -Frank McConnell From higginbo at netpath.net Fri Jun 19 21:08:17 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980619220645.006ae004@netpath.net> At 09:25 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Larry Anderson wrote: > I started with cassettes for the PETs at high school, though not as old as >some but still nostalgic. I still have my original first tape, though it had >been transfered to a new housing and snaps when a good (assertive?) datasette >rewinds it, it is still readable. I too started with cassettes, but in my early years it was Apple II and Commodore VIC-20/C-64/C-16 tapes. A friend of mine (the owner of the C-16) didn't have a datasette. He's pretty artistic; he'd sit there for hours, plotting graphics through BASIC to the screen, only to lose it all when the power was offed. He did have a VCR though, and would record the images on VHS tape. (I wonder what he ever did with that tape, anyway?) - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From foxnhare at goldrush.com Fri Jun 19 21:20:32 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Help with Mac Classic References: <199806190702.AAA16161@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <358B1C70.364CC6A3@goldrush.com> > From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan) > Subject: Need help with Mac Classic > > My partner's classroom received a Mac Classic, donated by a parent. > I've never done anything with Macs, so I need some help with this. > > - Can someone tell me the standard configuration(s) for a Mac Classic? > 68000 processor 1 to 2 megs of RAM > - What options are available for it? > You can add up to 4 megs of RAM assuming you have the extra RAM expansion card if not you have 1 until you locate the card to plug more SIMMs in. There are a few accellerators (such as the MicroMac) but they are not all that much faster when you get down to serious work. No expansion, no color... :/ It will get you crawling on the internet with B/W Mac Web and Eudora though. You can get printers (apple ImageWriter, Stylewriter or Stylewriter II, anything later wouldn't work or a Parallel printer using a PowerPrint interface), external modems, extra drives, some decent educational programs, decent applications (I recommend Claris Works 2 or 3) etc. for it, there is still some usefullness in it. > - Where can I get a mouse (and other hardware) - Do I need a mouse? > Can I get along without one? Barely, assuming you can activate the mousekeys (if the extension is in your system) by pressing SHIFT-COMMAND-[KEYPAD]CLEAR, then you have the keypad numbers to move the pointer and the 5 as a mouse button. I would really recommend a mouse, thrift stores or used computer shops are a good try at first, if not you can find used mice available somewhat reasonably on the internet like in news:misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc > > - Where can I get an operating system for it (MacOS?) > You can download it from the Apple site (www.apple.com) up to system 7... You would be best to get 7.1 (no higher, it will bog down your 68000/4meg unit too much) also available from resellers. System 7 is the minimum for somewhat decent (read painless) internet access. A Classic II is a much more capable machine... :/ > Any and all help appreciated... > Lemme know if you have any more, I still deal with them from time to time at work (I don't think too much longer though I think most of our organization will be color Macs and 'those other computers' soon... (=)) -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 19 21:36:38 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: wanted manuals for HP 9915 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980619200306.39ef0afe@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980619213638.39ef6948@intellistar.net> At 02:13 AM 6/20/98 +0100, you wrote: >> >> The title says it all. I'm looking for ANY documentation for the HP 9915. > >Isn't that the HP85 in a sort-of rackmout module case? What do you need >to know that's not in the HP85 manuals? It's not a rack mount. It's too small for that. Mine are only about 6" square and a foot long. I would like to know the pinout for the connectors for the optional keyboard and monitor. Also what the heck that "control" connector on the back is for and how to use it. Also what extra fuctions are built into the 9915 if any. And what the push buttons and indicators on the front are for. Joe Joe > >> >> Joe >> >> > >-tony > > From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 19 22:23:09 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Another Atari Achievement... References: <3.0.1.32.19980618092253.00bb6290@pc> <3.0.1.16.19980619105301.2f0f7006@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <358B2B1D.D0D6E7AE@cnct.com> Joe wrote: > > At 03:20 AM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote: > > > >No, Charles Moore created FORTH as a notation system for teaching > >mathematics -- it just happened that when the notation system was > >converted to a programming language that it became handy for such > >things as controlling telescopes. > >-- > > Are you sure you're not confusing it with Ken Iverson and APL? He > created it as a mathematical teaching language. Blame it on lack of sleep. Somehow my fatigued brain crossed the histories of APL and Forth. Both wonderful languages, and both essentially write-only. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 19 22:46:33 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: COMODORE=TANDY References: <3.0.32.19980618224943.006b9d6c@netpath.net> <3.0.1.32.19980619050011.006a2164@vader.kootenay.net> Message-ID: <358B3099.7AB1E608@cnct.com> Chris Halarewich wrote: > > I was looking around at http://www.patents.ibm.com > > I discovered that Commodore Electronics held the > patent for the case of the TRS-80 CoCo2(3?), which makes me wonder if > they designed the rest of the computer for Radio Shack. > > Any Edgeumacated guesses anyone...anyone :) I'd have to express some rather strong doubts. The CoCo 2/3 case was essentially a streamlining of the CoCo 1 case, configured for the non-chicklet keyboard and smaller mainboard. Point me to a specific patent number -- I'm not saying it's impossible, but I was at Tandy at the time and heard no rumors of deals with Commodore. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 19 23:43:10 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... In-Reply-To: <3589E856.EEA0F88A@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson" at Jun 18, 98 09:25:59 pm Message-ID: <9806200343.AA18089@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 292 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980619/952ca34d/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 19 23:01:57 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? References: <199806191825.AA11247@world.std.com> Message-ID: <358B3435.F1E9E213@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > <> Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels > <> Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree. > <> Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of > <> diodes and neon filled tubes. > < > <(beside the current). > > The distinction for the last two is significant from a design and speed > standpoint. the design process is very different at the detail level. Yah, with a relay-based system, a one-hertz clock speed would be setting a record. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 19 23:28:58 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... In-Reply-To: <3589E856.EEA0F88A@goldrush.com> References: <199806180702.AAA10330@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980619212858.038e6230@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:25 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote: > >New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did >you guys carry around to start out with? > > I started with cassettes for the PETs at high school, though not as old as >some but still nostalgic. I still have my original first tape, though it had >been transfered to a new housing and snaps when a good (assertive?) datasette >rewinds it, it is still readable. >-- First??? DECtape, 1 inch wide on the 4 inch reels from the PDP-8 in the OMSI computer labs. On occasion 8 level paper tape from the teletypes that we used to access a GE time-share system in Seattle. And... I still have gear in the collection that can read both! B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jun 19 19:35:06 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! In-Reply-To: References: <199806190818.QAA24066@imsp015.netvigator.com> Message-ID: <199806200434.AAA16100@smtp.interlog.com> > On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Ken Yaksa wrote: > > > Umm.... If there has any method to build up the Mac Discs on a PC?? > > The low level format of Macintosh and IBM PC-clone 1.44 MB floppy disks is > the same; therefore, it is possible, but probably not trivial to do with > the images that Apple has on their FTP site. I once downloaded the > Macintosh system software variants that Apple makes available, then used a > Mac to make disks from the image files, then made images of the resulting > disks using dd (on a Linux box). The resulting images can be copied back > to floppy disks using dd (or rawrite under MS-DOS). Kind of a handy way > to avoid needing a working Mac to make the disks to get a Mac working. > Unfortunately, I don't think Apple allows redistribution of their OS by > third parties, so I've kept these images to myself. > > Does anyone know the format of Macintosh Disk Copy 4.x images? If this > program is doing the obvious thing and simply storing a raw dump of the > disk's contents in the data fork, then it should be possible to make > Macintosh disks from these images using rawrite or dd, provided that a > means exists on your platform of choice for extracting the image file from > the compressed archive provided by Apple. > > Note that 400k/800k Macintosh disks cannot be written to or read by IBM > PC-clone hardware, so you're out of luck if your Mac isn't equipped with a > DS/HD (or FDHD, in Applespeak) drive. > > -- > Scott Ware ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu > There are several programs for transferring disks from a PC to Mac . Macindos , Macsee , and IMHO the best is Macdisk . This is a description: macdisk.exe (249K) Mac Disk is a PC utility to read, write, and format Macintosh HD floppy disks. Bundled with an Ascii converter and a utility to edit the internal table. Contains a demo version under Windows and a shareware version. From Pierre Duhem. See ReadMe for additional information. macsq.exe (318K) Mac SQ is a PC utility to read, write and format Macintosh SyQuest cartridges on a PC. Contains a demo version under Windows and a shareware version under DOS. The macsq overcomes the problem of the non-MFM 800 and 400 k flopies if you have access to a Syquest removeable. I can't find the URL for this but a search should easily turn it up. Of course if you have a working Mac you can down load to a PC The trick is not to uncompress on the PC but simply transfer the uncompressed files and then uncompress them with Shrinkit . The same technique works with the Atari ST ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jun 19 19:35:07 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:42 2005 Subject: Couldn't be more OT if it tried! Re: (OT, in a way...) In-Reply-To: <93ed6e8b.35887f45@aol.com> Message-ID: <199806200435.AAA16105@smtp.interlog.com> > In a message dated 98-06-17 22:37:02 EDT, you write: > > << I have a model 80 with built in SCSI that won't survive the next trash > pick up! My neighbor just pitched his model 70. I didn't bother to take > it out of the trash! I have a LOT of PCs that are a lot older than any PS-2 > ever made! Altair -1976, IBM 5100 - 1977, HP 9100 - 1968, lots of HP > 9815s, HP 9825s and HP 85s from the '70s. > > You left out the idiotic micro-channel bus! > > Joe >> > > well, so you dont like mca. that's fine, but the 8580 didnt come with scsi > built in. the hard drive in it was ESDI. the premium series had built in scsi > on the planar. let me correct myself in saying that my model 77 will certainly > outlast any IBM-PC compatible machine of its era. please note that i am > comparing MCA to ISA here. im not disparaging any other type. > david > Well not to compare dicks , but every reference by PC writers I've seen descibes MCA as a superior architecture. Had IBM not attempted to flex it's muscles by inserting a proprietory clause, hence forcing Compaq et all to come up with IDE we would now likely have a PC system much superior built on the basis of the MCA advances. And ESDE was much faster than MFM. The SCSI built into the PS2 models like the 8557 even with the bastard (rs6000) external connector was even faster as well as the faster serial I/O. IBM also introduced VGA with the PS2. With the reference disks PS2 was plug and play on the PC long before Win95 . I love my 8580. Built like a tank. Virtually indestuctable. It sits under my desk as a companion to this newer machine I use on the net. A true classic. I'm always on the lookout for cheap adapters for it, and at some point will add a 486 daughter board. Right now I have DRdos and OS/2 on it , but eventually it will be my Linux mchn. I also have many older micros. Each I consider unique , with thier own particular quirks and virtues. Older isn't the point. Its importance in the overall development or uniqueness is. I must admit tho that my ST is more fun and my fave. To each his own. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jun 19 20:03:49 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: News Article Message-ID: <199806200507.BAA17735@smtp.interlog.com> A large circulation (100,000) alternative publication in Toronto has run several Chiapas-related articles the last couple of weeks. for the latest check out http://www.now.com/issues/current/News/feature2.html They are slightly left of center and have a large influence among younger people. ciao Larry lwalker@interlog.com From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat Jun 20 00:22:44 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: ATT 6310 Message-ID: <199806200522.WAA05201@norway.it.earthlink.net> At 06:30 AM 6/16/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >> Hello all, >> I have found a AT&T 6310 PC box. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Is it >> 10 years old, yet? It is heavy enough I'd thought it had a large >>linear supply in it, but only a switcher ps! It was made in Italy by >> Olivetti, as mentioned on the 6300 thread. > >Thats a 10MHZ 80286 box which was one of the last Olivetti AT&T PC's. > >Bill > Would anyone like it? Otherwise, I may find a use for it as a case or "parts" set, as radio collectors say (I actually like to build old radios as another hobby), as I don't have a keyboard, etc. for it. It would have to be a pickup, as it weighs about 40 lb, (18kg)! I live in So. California, Manhattan Beach. -Dave From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sat Jun 20 00:53:10 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... In-Reply-To: <3589E856.EEA0F88A@goldrush.com> References: <199806180702.AAA10330@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199806200553.PAA00620@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:25 PM 18-06-98 -0700, Larry Anderson wrote: >New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did >you guys carry around to start out with? Well, paper tape for the PDP-8, cards for the PDP-15 and DECsystem-10. I still have a complete card deck for an Algol program I wrote that takes modified BNF as input and produces the operator precedence matrix as output. The reason for cards? Well the assignment was getting close to coding time (ie a day or two before it was due :-) and the DEC-10 was broken and likely to be down for a day or two. A quick brush up on IBM card punch procedures and the deck was ready for input as soon as the -10 came up. This is the largest card deck I ever did (about 1 card box in length). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jun 19 21:15:02 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980619212858.038e6230@agora.rdrop.com> References: <3589E856.EEA0F88A@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <199806200614.CAA20490@smtp.interlog.com> > At 09:25 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote: > > > >New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did > >you guys carry around to start out with? > > > > I started with cassettes for the PETs at high school, though not as old as > >some but still nostalgic. I still have my original first tape, though it had > >been transfered to a new housing and snaps when a good (assertive?) datasette > >rewinds it, it is still readable. > >-- > > First??? DECtape, 1 inch wide on the 4 inch reels from the PDP-8 in the > OMSI computer labs. On occasion 8 level paper tape from the teletypes that > we used to access a GE time-share system in Seattle. > > And... I still have gear in the collection that can read both! B^} > > -jim > Well I guess this dates me, but , 80 column punch cards. Do not bend ,spindle or mutilate. The only benefit was when a few years later on my advertising distribution company was delivering a promo for a large supermarket firm that shall go unnamed, cards that had some prizes included. The cards were put thru an interpreter at the check-out counter and some were winning cards if you had the item mentioned in your basket. Since I could read the cards we pulled some of the better prizes and presented them at different stores. " Oh I won a Steak ? Thats great , I just happen to have one in my basket." We lived more dangerously in those days. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 20 01:56:24 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: fire control computers? In-Reply-To: <19980619192026.0b428b79.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: > "Max Eskin" said: >>Do you have any diagrams of the mechanical fire control computers? > > Try going to your local Federal building and look for the Goverment >Book Store. There you can find many different military training manuals. >Look for Navy manuals for Fire Control Technician 3 and 2. If you can You can get them this way??? Wow, it looks like I need to find time to check out the local Federal building. I want to get the Data Systems Technician manuals. >find it, it should have plenty of information on mechanical fire control >computers (At least they did 30 years ago). > I'm sure the Navy still uses these kind of computers on older ships with >5" guns. Well the current DS ones as of a couple of years ago had info on core memory, so it's possible the FC manuals have mechanical computers in them, but I doubt it. For one thing, I'm not sure the Navy still has any guns larger than 76mm. If they do, they are RARE! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 20 02:51:50 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806162346.SAA02479@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: > For Sale: > > IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer [...] > Asking price: $300 After a round of email bidding, the seller sez: > IT SOLD FOR $1000. THAMKS FOR THE RESPONSE. Somebody recently suggested that it would be better to offer stuff directly to readers of this list rather than advertising them via online auction. The last IMSAI that sold on eBay went for around $650, I think. FWIW, Doug (still IMSAI-less) From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 20 07:42:50 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: fire control computers? References: Message-ID: <358BAE49.9EEA597D@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > "Max Eskin" said: > >>Do you have any diagrams of the mechanical fire control computers? > > > > Try going to your local Federal building and look for the Goverment > >Book Store. There you can find many different military training manuals. > >Look for Navy manuals for Fire Control Technician 3 and 2. If you can > > You can get them this way??? Wow, it looks like I need to find time to > check out the local Federal building. I want to get the Data Systems > Technician manuals. > > >find it, it should have plenty of information on mechanical fire control > >computers (At least they did 30 years ago). > > I'm sure the Navy still uses these kind of computers on older ships with > >5" guns. > > Well the current DS ones as of a couple of years ago had info on core > memory, so it's possible the FC manuals have mechanical computers in them, > but I doubt it. For one thing, I'm not sure the Navy still has any guns > larger than 76mm. If they do, they are RARE! Yes, the Navy still has guns much larger than 76 mm. Among other things, they haven't squoze tactical nuclear shells down to that narrow. (I do not approve of the government having such terrorist weapons or for that matter having stronger armament than the citizens it pretends to "serve") -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 20 07:53:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: News Article References: <199806200507.BAA17735@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <358BB0C9.7931F5F0@cnct.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > > A large circulation (100,000) alternative publication in Toronto has run > several Chiapas-related articles the last couple of weeks. for the latest check > out > http://www.now.com/issues/current/News/feature2.html > > They are slightly left of center and have a large influence among younger > people. I'm trying to figure out what connects this article to classic computers (it _does_ relate to a couple of other mailing lists I'm on -- the political ones -- but I _try_ to avoid it here where I can take a break from preaching libertarianism). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 20 08:14:50 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... Message-ID: <199806201314.AA20166@world.std.com> <>New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) <>you guys carry around to start out with? <> 8 level paper tape, boces/lirics PDP-8I timeshare system 1969 DECTAPE BOCES/LIRICS PDP-10 (tops-10) timeshare system 1970 MITS ACR casette(300baud), 1975 2400baud NRZ using audio cassette hardware (homebrew)late 1975 4800baud FM using audio cassettes early 1976 DRUM memory (real ugly four track, stored 32kb) NS* microfloppy (5.25 sa400) late 1976 Just a few I've played with... Allison From jfedorko at virtualadmin.com Sat Jun 20 09:47:43 1998 From: jfedorko at virtualadmin.com (Joel Fedorko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... Message-ID: <01BD9C39.6D28C7E0@hardhead.virtualadmin.com> At 09:25 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote: > >New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did >you guys carry around to start out with? > [Joel Fedorko] Mid-Late '70s - Punch Cards (80 col) for the IBM box Paper tape for various HP & DEC boxes (with upgrades to mylar in the later years), tape cartridges for the HP2645A Mini Data Station, tape cassettes for a TI? terminal, DECtape PDPs, LINCtape (relative of DECtape) DEC, DG, Varian, Perkin-Elmer, Altair Late 70s early 80s 9 Track tape dominated across the board 8" floppy for micro's Brief encounter with the 96 column System 32 punch card 40 Meg disk pack for HP3000 (forget drive part#, it was made by CDC?) From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jun 20 11:10:39 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <358B3435.F1E9E213@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > <> Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels > > <> Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree. > > <> Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of > > <> diodes and neon filled tubes. > > < > > > > > <(beside the current). > > > > The distinction for the last two is significant from a design and speed > > standpoint. the design process is very different at the detail level. > > Yah, with a relay-based system, a one-hertz clock speed would be > setting a record. > -- > Ward Griffiths > Weeelllll.... let's do some Research. From "The Annals of the Computation Laboratory of Harvard University", vol XVI, 1948.... one can find a few references to what we would term 'clock speed' in the descriptions of the various machines (the IBM ASCC Mark I, the ENIAC, Bell Telephone's Relay Computing System, the IBM Dahlgren Calculator Mark II). The Mark I "...operates at a speed of 200 cycles per minute." I make this to be over three cycles per second... and by cycles is meant *machine* cycles... I would posit an engineering-educated guess that the actual timing pulses were coming along a few multiples faster than this, though the description does not call out the actual master timing freq. The ENIAC, of course, was all electronic, but for example it's clock ran at 100 kHtz, with a duration of 2uSec. Bell Labs does not specifically say a clock rate, or any operational speeds, but the I/O were Teletype tape transmitters and Model 15 page printers. You do the math. (note: this article is full of cool pictures and examples of coding instructions and tables. If there's interest I could maybe do some scanning and uploads to my webpage.....) The Mark II Calculator was faster than the Mark I (and much bigger). Some timing references: "There are 100 storage registers in the entire machine. Any quantity standing in one of these is available to the computing parts of the machine in 33 milliseconds." "There are about 13,500 electro-mechanical relays in the Dahlgren calculator. The operating times of these relays in either direction are from six to ten milliseconds." "....cam operated contacts, about 800 in number, are used for this purpose. [the cams sync the machine and carry the heavy currents, sparing the delicate relays] The impulses...... are of 16 2/3 milliseconds in duration. A large margin of safety is thereby provided.." SO: The first American relay machines operated at speeds considerably in excess of 1 Htz. I have no data on the Zuse. neener neener neener, Ward ;} Trivia: The first Binary Adder was built by two Bell Labs engineers in the mid thirties, and called the "K2" because it was assembled one a Kitchen table in thier free time. I will look up the reference if anyone's interested. I really must scan the pix of the Mark II... they have a fish-eye shot of the whole machine, and also the various units, and even one of inside the relay cubicles... tres cool, no? Oui? Cheers John From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Jun 20 12:13:00 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: References: <199806162346.SAA02479@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980620101300.00b503a0@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:51 AM 6/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >> For Sale: >> >> IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer >[...] >> Asking price: $300 > >After a round of email bidding, the seller sez: >> IT SOLD FOR $1000. THAMKS FOR THE RESPONSE. > >Somebody recently suggested that it would be better to offer stuff >directly to readers of this list rather than advertising them via online >auction. The last IMSAI that sold on eBay went for around $650, I think. > >FWIW, >Doug (still IMSAI-less) Well... while it may not improve the price, it may improve the audience... B^} While trying to NOT reignite another flame war (which I probably contribute to), the qualifier on this idea might be that when you post something, post it with an acceptable price. IMHO that should not be a difficult proposition for someone who is looking for a good home for a piece of equipment. If you are just going to relocate an auction, then you are probably only in it for the money! (boy, am I gonna get yelled at for THAT one) What really scrapes my oxide is an approach that I am starting to see more often in postings in and newsgroups. (it has happened to me twice now in the last month) Someone posts an item with an asking price. I respond to the message with a counter offer. The seller responds with a counter-counter offer that I find acceptable. I respond to the message with my acceptance and provide shipping details. The seller then responded back indicating that he has received a higher offer and that the unit has been sold without so much as an opportunity for further response. Now, maybe it is just me... But from my view when responded with a counter to my offer, we were in the midst of transacting a deal and I should have 'right of first refusal' until the point that either we make the deal or I decide I don't want it. I don't appreciate multi-thread dealing going on without being informed. And it was not like there were any extended delays between these messages. The entire series of exchanges occurred over less than 24 hours. Very similar for the second occurrance I mentioned above... BTW: a HERO-2000 auction just closed on eBay for $4027.78... (sheesh!) -jim (the obviously overly idealistic one...) --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Jun 20 08:32:21 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: News Article In-Reply-To: <358BB0C9.7931F5F0@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199806201731.NAA23769@smtp.interlog.com> > Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > > A large circulation (100,000) alternative publication in Toronto has run > > several Chiapas-related articles the last couple of weeks. for the latest check > > out > > http://www.now.com/issues/current/News/feature2.html > > > > They are slightly left of center and have a large influence among younger > > people. > > I'm trying to figure out what connects this article to classic > computers (it _does_ relate to a couple of other mailing lists I'm > on -- the political ones -- but I _try_ to avoid it here where I > can take a break from preaching libertarianism). > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > My apologies. This message went to the wrong list. These e-mail programs make things a little too easy at times. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From van at wired.com Sat Jun 20 13:26:07 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980620101300.00b503a0@agora.rdrop.com> References: <199806162346.SAA02479@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: Jim... I agree with you completely...however evil ebay may be, at least it is a structured enviornment with rules and etiquette that is regulated. I am so sick of so-called "informal" auctions. How do I know that the seller is quoting actual bids? Recently, in a so-called "silent" email auction...I bid $275 for a non-working Odyssey 1 (IMHO a very fair and reasonably high bid) only to receive the sellers reply that had been forwarded to ALL participating bidders stating that in fact that I was the high bidder, the amount I bid, and asked that counter bids should be made in $5 increments...I was livid! Isn't the whole point of a silent auction that the bids _remain_ closed and the item simply goes to the highest bidder? Am I crazy? I am of the opinion that some of these characters are scrounging around ebay and newsgroups soliciting bidders just to get out of paying the commission...then they invent these rediculous auction scenarios. I think there should be some sort of formal boycott. Looking forward... van (snip) >What really scrapes my oxide is an approach that I am starting to see more >often in postings in and newsgroups. (it has happened to me twice now in >the last month) > >Someone posts an item with an asking price. I respond to the message with >a counter offer. The seller responds with a counter-counter offer that I >find acceptable. I respond to the message with my acceptance and provide >shipping details. The seller then responded back indicating that he has >received a higher offer and that the unit has been sold without so much as >an opportunity for further response. > >Now, maybe it is just me... But from my view when responded with a counter >to my offer, we were in the midst of transacting a deal and I should have >'right of first refusal' until the point that either we make the deal or I >decide I don't want it. > >I don't appreciate multi-thread dealing going on without being informed. >And it was not like there were any extended delays between these messages. >The entire series of exchanges occurred over less than 24 hours. Very >similar for the second occurrance I mentioned above... > >BTW: a HERO-2000 auction just closed on eBay for $4027.78... (sheesh!) > >-jim (the obviously overly idealistic one...) ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 20 09:26:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <358B3435.F1E9E213@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jun 20, 98 00:01:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 503 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980620/5790b154/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 20 09:18:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... In-Reply-To: <3589E856.EEA0F88A@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson" at Jun 18, 98 09:25:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1631 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980620/1b3a830a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 20 09:21:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: wanted manuals for HP 9915 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980619213638.39ef6948@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 19, 98 09:36:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1107 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980620/558d05b6/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 20 15:03:59 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Message-ID: <19980620200359.24490.qmail@hotmail.com> I have that program, and I have only been able to copy something so that the mac could read it only a couple of times. There is a problem of it being unable to copy a file with both sides of the fork used (i.e. you can dump everything into the resource fork, or everything into the data fork, but can't use both. Executor stores the two as separate files, it would be nice if I could tell Mac-ette to use bla for the data fork of bbb and blb for the resource fork of bbb. Alas...) >> ftp://ftp5.info.apple.com/Apple.Support.Area/Apple_SW_Updates/US/Macintosh/S >> yste >> > m/Older_System/ >> > >> > Of course you need a functional Mac to make the floppies. If you have >> both >> > hard drives, simply make sure the SCSI ID's are set to different numbers, >> > and either leave both in the machine, or copy the 40Mb drive to the >> larger >> > one. Another more expensive alternative would be to get a external >> CD-ROM >> > and a copy of MacOS on CD. >> >> Umm.... If there has any method to build up the Mac Discs on a PC?? > >Yes, there is a free(?)/share(?)ware program named MAC-ETTE that will >format, read, and write the 1.44mb Mac disks. The problem that most of >us non-Mac yokels have is trying to figure out what goes in which fork! > >You should be abble to find it with a Web search. > > - don > > >> Yours, >> Ken Yaksa >> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From franke at sbs.de Sat Jun 20 17:22:17 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806202009.WAA03942@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Allison J Parent wrote: >><> Mechanical: man or motor powered, bars cams, wheels >><> Electric: Relays, steppers, solonoids and contacts has logic tree. >><> Electronic: uses active devices, tubes, transistors, ICs some types of >>> diodes and neon filled tubes. >>>>><(beside the current). >> The distinction for the last two is significant from a design and speed >> standpoint. the design process is very different at the detail level. > Yah, with a relay-based system, a one-hertz clock speed would be > setting a record. Woooooosh - Your 'record' machine was just bypassed by a 1941 Zuse build from junk telephone relais. According to Zuse a multiplication took 3 seconds. A Multiply nedded 16 Machine cycls and 16/3 equals to 5.33 Hz - just - 5 times faster - calculated on cycles, but one cyle had 5 stages. Satge 1 to 3 where used for execution, while 4 and 5 are used for load and fetch - the operation fetch ocuresd simultaniously to the store. So even this early had paralell working units (didn't tried Intel to tell us that this was one of the big inventions of the Pentium - you know the processor with all the little rainbow coloured man inside instead of the usual LGM) Althrough the speed was something like 5 or 6 Hz, it is legal to speak about a clock speed of 15 to 18 Hz when comparing to newer machines. And for relay speed itself - 40 to 100 (controlled) switchings per second have been possible for pre war relais and EMS relais (technique of the 60s) are able to do up to 1500 Hz - we tried it 20 years back :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Sat Jun 20 17:22:17 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <199806202009.WAA03946@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> You just searched a phon directory ? Didn't you ? Or >> who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ? >> True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance. >> Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite >> good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display >> is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer >> displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_ >> unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build >> some junk place. > It can't be as bad as the Science Museum in London, surely. I was there > earlier this week, and what a _joke_!!! I never been there - hmm maybe I should tak a weekend - is there a Website to get the opening hours ? > The digital computing collection seems to consist of the Pilot ACE (worth > seeing, but it's _never_ in operation), the Babbage difference engine > (again, well worth seeing), and a poor collection of random bits of more > modern machines/peripherals. Oh, thats also the best description for the 'modern' displays in the Deutsches Museum: random bits. Especialy for the small devices. >> Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first >> fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes - >> they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete, >> including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would >> have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and >> power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible, >> but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old >> tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone >> will be here to tell the story. > We've had this discussion here before. Museums are (IMHO) too interested > in preserving the fabric of a device (which is important, but not the > most important thing) rather than the operation. My guess is that in > (say) 50 years time there will be machines in museums that are still in > exactly the same condition as when they were taken out of service, but > nobody knows how to get them running again, what they were really used > for, or how to operate them. We (as in the majority of people on this > list) are doing the opposite in general. We keep machines working, even > if it means doing some non-original repairs (but we try to keep things as > original as possible). I suspect our collections and those of museums > will both be of value in the future, but for different reasons. Ok, the 2002 wouldn't be exactly the machine for continous display in action, but even if it is just as static display, this one time running test ist the best verification that the static display is _complete_. (In fact, the critical part of the 2002 is the storage drum - even back in time when it was new, every power up and down had to be guarded by tecnicans - hmm but even here, since the drum is a closed device, one could replace it (invisible) by a modern electronic emulation... just thinking) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Sat Jun 20 17:36:51 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) Message-ID: <199806202024.WAA05256@marina.fth.sbs.de> > I agree with you completely...however evil ebay may be, at least it is a > structured enviornment with rules and etiquette that is regulated. Agreed > I am of the opinion that some of these characters are scrounging around > ebay and newsgroups soliciting bidders just to get out of paying the > commission...then they invent these rediculous auction scenarios. I think > there should be some sort of formal boycott. I still like sBay an similar systems. At least they secure the process a bit - like in an ordinary auction. And auctions are, for shure, no place for rare or most wanted items. Not VL and not RL. But they are a good thing to get fair prices for some unusual or common things. I bought some rare spare parts via eBay for just cents (and a brand new never opened never used complete Mac IIsi for less than 100 USD :). But the best hits are always on ordinary swap markets (flea markets) (like today *g*) - even electronic swaps tend to have high prices. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From sethm at loomcom.com Sat Jun 20 15:32:39 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 20, 98 02:51:50 am Message-ID: <199806202032.NAA11836@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1737 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980620/1a0b6be8/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 20 15:30:30 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... Message-ID: <19980620203031.26018.qmail@hotmail.com> Sorry about the white space, I'm using Lynx, as always... I agree with that! I've taken two sets of disks for Mac System 7 from a Mac Lab, and both had bad disks. OTOH, the 6.0.4 disks still work fine, probably because of the lower density. Sometimes I wonder if there's something wrong w/my drives, but they can read data written by other drives... >a month later. And yes my drive heads are clean, and the drive is set up >as per the service manual. > >Sometimes I wish I could pay more for a disk and get one that lasts. My >data is worth a lot more than $5 or whatever. > >> >> New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did >> you guys carry around to start out with? My first exposure to storage was 5.25" disks in third grade for the Apple ][. It was old then. We were being terrorized by a moron who spent a month telling us to put disks into a sleeve. I wondered if he knew to do anything else. BTW, can a disk be damaged if taken out while it is being read from? That was a sin I had commited... > >After that came : magnetic cards on an HP41CV, 5.25" floppies (initially >on the school's RML380Z, then on my TRS-80), paper tape (I got a >non-working ASR33 and repaired it), 8" floppies, 3" floppies, punched >cards, 3.5" floppies, hard disk packs, 9 track tapes, QIC tapes. > >Of course many of those are used on more than 1 machine, and I'm only >listing the first time I used them. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From franke at sbs.de Sat Jun 20 17:42:08 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... Message-ID: <199806202029.WAA05748@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> At 09:25 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >>>New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did >>>you guys carry around to start out with? >>> I started with cassettes for the PETs at high school, though not as old as >>>some but still nostalgic. I still have my original first tape, though it had >>>been transfered to a new housing and snaps when a good (assertive?) datasette >>>rewinds it, it is still readable. >> First??? DECtape, 1 inch wide on the 4 inch reels from the PDP-8 in the >> OMSI computer labs. On occasion 8 level paper tape from the teletypes that >> we used to access a GE time-share system in Seattle. > Well I guess this dates me, but , 80 column punch cards. Do > not bend ,spindle or mutilate. > The only benefit was when a few years later on my advertising > distribution company was delivering a promo for a large supermarket > firm that shall go unnamed, cards that had some prizes included. > The cards were put thru an interpreter at the check-out counter > and some were winning cards if you had the item mentioned in > your basket. Since I could read the cards we pulled some of the > better prizes and presented them at different stores. > " Oh I won a Steak ? Thats great , I just happen to have one in > my basket." > We lived more dangerously in those days. Nice - I could offer 9 hole paper tape over a (modified) T100 Teletype on my Kim - before that I used paper and pencile until the program was 'finished' and than an PROM burner for archiving - superiour accestime :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 20 15:34:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <19980620203443.26499.qmail@hotmail.com> But then you're missing all the fun of watching the drum! That's the cool part about REALLY old machines. With them, one could still get his hands dirty in oil, as opposed to dust. >>> who told you that I live near the Deutsches Museum ? >>> True, my apartment is just 100m from the (back) entrance. > >>> Their _very_ early collection - up to the Zuse - ist quite >>> good, but anything later is crap - or at least the display >>> is crap - I left the museum society because of the computer >>> displays. I'm especialy upset because they have _real_ >>> unique things to show in a _unique_ way, but they just build >>> some junk place. > >> It can't be as bad as the Science Museum in London, surely. I was there >> earlier this week, and what a _joke_!!! > >I never been there - hmm maybe I should tak a weekend - is >there a Website to get the opening hours ? > >> The digital computing collection seems to consist of the Pilot ACE (worth >> seeing, but it's _never_ in operation), the Babbage difference engine >> (again, well worth seeing), and a poor collection of random bits of more >> modern machines/peripherals. > >Oh, thats also the best description for the 'modern' displays >in the Deutsches Museum: random bits. Especialy for the small >devices. > >>> Example: they recived a _complete_ SIEMENS 2002, the first >>> fuly transistorized copmuter. Not only the main boxes - >>> they got _everything_ needed to show the machine complete, >>> including _all_ manuals, even spare parts. I think it would >>> have been possible to rebuild this marvelous machine and >>> power it up (ok, once) to show it. Maybe it is still possible, >>> but it has to be done soon - right now several of the old >>> tecnicans are still alive, but in ten years from now noone >>> will be here to tell the story. > >> We've had this discussion here before. Museums are (IMHO) too interested >> in preserving the fabric of a device (which is important, but not the >> most important thing) rather than the operation. My guess is that in >> (say) 50 years time there will be machines in museums that are still in >> exactly the same condition as when they were taken out of service, but >> nobody knows how to get them running again, what they were really used >> for, or how to operate them. We (as in the majority of people on this >> list) are doing the opposite in general. We keep machines working, even >> if it means doing some non-original repairs (but we try to keep things as >> original as possible). I suspect our collections and those of museums >> will both be of value in the future, but for different reasons. > >Ok, the 2002 wouldn't be exactly the machine for continous >display in action, but even if it is just as static display, >this one time running test ist the best verification that the >static display is _complete_. > >(In fact, the critical part of the 2002 is the storage drum - >even back in time when it was new, every power up and down >had to be guarded by tecnicans - hmm but even here, since >the drum is a closed device, one could replace it (invisible) >by a modern electronic emulation... just thinking) > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From franke at sbs.de Sat Jun 20 17:47:08 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <199806202034.WAA06224@marina.fth.sbs.de> > But then you're missing all the fun of watching the drum! That's the > cool part about REALLY old machines. With them, one could still get > his hands dirty in oil, as opposed to dust. The drum was (is) capsuled. Nothing to wiew beside a big old e-motor. Gruss H. (hates exchange) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jun 20 15:28:30 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: wanted manuals for HP 9915 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980619213638.39ef6948@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980620152830.2c474498@intellistar.net> At 03:21 PM 6/20/98 +0100, you wrote: >> >> >> It's not a rack mount. It's too small for that. Mine are only about 6" >> square and a foot long. > >Yes, that's the one I meant. I believe there was a rackmount kit for it >from HP. wasn't there? I don't know but it would just aboud get lost in a rack! > >> >> I would like to know the pinout for the connectors for the optional >> keyboard and monitor. Also what the heck that "control" connector on the > >The monitor connector is a BNC, composite video. I figured that it was. It's probably made for the 82912 or 82913 monitor. Any idea on the "control" connector? Does your's even have that? It may be part of the keyboard/monitor interface option. > >One day, when I've got some time to spare I'll dismantle an HP85 and >trace its keyboard connections to the custom chips. Then do the same >thing for the connector on the 9915. It should then be possible to wire >up a keyboard with the correct matrix. I think I have the schematic of the keyboard and it's controller for the 85. I need to open a 9915 and see if it has the same controller and trace the wiring back to the connector. > >> back is for and how to use it. Also what extra fuctions are built into the >> 9915 if any. And what the push buttons and indicators on the front are for. > > >No idea on that, I'm afraid. I was hoping that someone on this list would have a manual for it. Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 20 16:23:31 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806202123.AA21290@world.std.com> References: Message-ID: <35ba4392.590846201@hoser> Well, this one almost made me cry and/or drive across the country to administer a sound beating, just prior to ransacking the local dump. What the *hell* are people thinking??? (It came from the person giving away the Morrow systems in Northwestern Montana, after I mentioned I had an IMSAI...) "A friend here just threw out a working IMSAI!" On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 02:51:50 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >> For Sale: >> >> IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer >[...] >> Asking price: $300 > >After a round of email bidding, the seller sez: >> IT SOLD FOR $1000. THAMKS FOR THE RESPONSE. -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 20 17:27:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: wanted manuals for HP 9915 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980620152830.2c474498@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 20, 98 03:28:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1176 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980620/a0ccbaaa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 20 17:44:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806202032.NAA11836@squeep.com> from "Seth J. Morabito" at Jun 20, 98 01:32:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2088 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980620/780ccf0c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 20 17:57:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <199806202009.WAA03946@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 20, 98 10:23:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2426 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980620/1e4f2c87/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 20 17:37:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <199806202123.AA21290@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 20, 98 05:23:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1686 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980620/8673bfc1/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 20 19:02:46 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: More additions to the Museum Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980620190246.006c98e4@pop3.concentric.net> Here are some of this week's finds: 1. 3-Apple Monochrome monitors IIe 2. 8-Apple 5.25 FD 3. 8-Giltronic Selecto-switch for Apple's 4. UltraDrive 45 for Mac with all cables and terminator 5. Apple duodisk A9M0108 6. 2-Apple IIe's 7. RCA Data Terminal model UP4801 similar to C64 a all in the keyboard unit even has a Acousic coupler conection and a RJ11 phone jack built in. 8. AMPI printer model 88 9. 2-Apple IIgs one is the WOZ limited edition model. 10. A Data General/One model 2 I already had a model 1, this unit came with the power supply. 11. EPSON PX-8 model H101A notebook computer has builtin micro cassette unit missing power supply but can run on batteries. 12. Digicard shared resource expansion unit and a contoller unit for apples. 13. Corvus OmniDrive model 45MB 14. 4-Apple Color Monitor IIe 15. Box of cables all types (a large box) 16. 2-IBM RT tower units need work 17. Heathkit Microcomputer learning system model 3400 series ET-3400A 18. HP 32936A ROM Drawer 19. 3-Mac 128k kb's 20. Box VAX manuals 21. Some old HP test equipment catalogs 22. Color Classic Mac 23. AT&T Mono monitor for 6300 24. AT&T kb for 6300 KBD302 25. And many more items than can be listed here because of the 10 year rule. It was good week for me and I hope you all have had some good fines. Keep on Computing John From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sat Jun 20 19:19:39 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: COMODORE=TANDY Message-ID: <199806210019.UAA21149@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Chris Halarewich wrote: ] I was looking around at http://www.patents.ibm.com ] ] I discovered that Commodore Electronics held the ] patent for the case of the TRS-80 CoCo2(3?), which makes me wonder if ] they designed the rest of the computer for Radio Shack. ] ] Any Edgeumacated guesses anyone...anyone :) ] ] Chris Halarewich The data sheet for the Motorola 6883 Synchronous Address Multiplexor, which is the key wonder-chip in the CoCo 1 and 2, includes a schematic that accounts for about 80% of the CoCo design. The 6883 and 6847 were clearly designed to be used together, and the rest of the design was pretty much driven by that. Of course, the CoCo does have a little stuff hanging off of the two PIA's that isn't given in that data sheet. But I'd be surprised if they had gone to Commodore for that. Of course, I'm surprised enough at the patent on the case (who would need to infringe a patent to make a rectanguloid plastic box?!), so I guess the origin of the remainder of the circuit design could surprise me too... Bill. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jun 20 03:49:15 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: First personal storage media... In-Reply-To: Larry Anderson "First personal storage media..." (Jun 18, 21:25) References: <199806180702.AAA10330@lists5.u.washington.edu> <3589E856.EEA0F88A@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <9806200949.ZM1632@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 18, 21:25, Larry Anderson wrote: > Yeah, > disks back then were about $5.00 (US) a shot [not to be confused with > ammunition in previous off topics, though I can wield a mean VIC-20] for the > cheap SS/SD ones. I recall being one of the first at the college I worked at then, to own floppies. I remember the price was a few pounds each around 1980, and one local supplier sold them to students one at a time. Unfortunately (for the dealer) not all the staff realised the price was per floppy, not per box-of-10, and a few of us reaped the benefit of that. I still use some of those disks in an Apple ][. > New Topic! Ok people: what sort of storage media (and for what system) did > you guys carry around to start out with? Most of my early computing was done on machines that used punched cards or paper tape, but I didn't often get to keep the cards, and sadly I have no cards or paper tape now. The first thing I carried about regularly was cassette tape (CUTS format). BTW, DECtape is 3/4" not 1" as Jim suggested (slip of the pen?). I still have some, but alas no deck to read it on. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sat Jun 20 19:37:51 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: Website status? Message-ID: <199806210037.UAA21262@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: ] Hey gang! ] ] Several times during the past week or ten days I've tried to connect to the ] ClassicCmp website http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp but ] never seemed to be up. Always got a message after Netscape timed out ] suggesting the web server is either down or not responding. Anybody know ] what's happening? That's been dead for nearly as long as I've been here, about a year. And there's also that rescue-list put up by Isaac Davis, that also has been non-maintained for as long. My suggestion to everybody is to put up your own classiccmp page, and make sure you include the words "classic computer" so it can be found easily through the search engines. Or, if you are volunteering to rescue old machines, include the words "classic computer rescue squad", and include your interests, geographical area, and contact info. At one point, I was extremely tempted to put up some "official" web pages to take over for those dead pages. But then I thought about it: both of the other two who did this have vanished without a trace. Maybe I don't want to follow too closely in their footsteps. :-) Bill. ] Thanks, ] --Chris ] -- -- ] Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian ] Jamestown, NY USA ] Member of Antique Wireless Association ] URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From desieh at southcom.com.au Sat Jun 20 20:13:54 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) Message-ID: <002401bd9cb1$dc8fd4c0$fa173ccb@mr-ibm> -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 6:30 Subject: Re: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) >> I agree with you completely...however evil ebay may be, at least it is a >> structured enviornment with rules and etiquette that is regulated. > >Agreed > >> I am of the opinion that some of these characters are scrounging around >> ebay and newsgroups soliciting bidders just to get out of paying the >> commission...then they invent these rediculous auction scenarios. I think >> there should be some sort of formal boycott. > >I still like sBay an similar systems. At least they secure the >process a bit - like in an ordinary auction. And auctions are, >for shure, no place for rare or most wanted items. Not VL and >not RL. But they are a good thing to get fair prices for some >unusual or common things. I bought some rare spare parts via >eBay for just cents (and a brand new never opened never used >complete Mac IIsi for less than 100 USD :). But the best hits >are always on ordinary swap markets (flea markets) (like today >*g*) - even electronic swaps tend to have high prices. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete Computer helpline: Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02 FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 20 20:24:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806210124.AA29454@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Desie Hay wrote: > its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete > Computer helpline: > > > Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.> > seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02 > > FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT > ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576 Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@wco.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2! See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details [Last web page update: 06/18/98] From kkant at tiger.hastings.esu9.k12.ne.us Sun Jun 21 02:01:46 1998 From: kkant at tiger.hastings.esu9.k12.ne.us (Ken Kant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: BULL - XPS 120 - HELP! In-Reply-To: <13364329847.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: I have a BULL XPS 120 (or 100 not sure) .. either way its a Mini Frame.. that I got from a college here, and it is supposed to work.. now my question is how do I do this :). I am fairly knowledable with Unix.. etc..and I have ALL the docuamentation, and DISKS that came with it. and terminals ..etc Can anyone help me get this pumping :).. Also I heard rumors of being able to still order cards for it .. like RJ45 ethernet add on board. I would love to get one of those. If you can help I would be forever in your debt :) Thanks :) Kenny From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jun 21 03:25:13 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: New e-mail address In-Reply-To: <358B24EB.41DF176B@goldrush.com> Message-ID: Excuse the interruption, but if you've been using dastar@wco.com to send me e-mail then please note I have a new e-mail address: dastar@verio.com You can also always reach me at sam@siconic.com which will probably never change. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Jun 21 04:36:18 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > For a kludge do what I did when I had to get composite video out of a > Model 1 without the right cable and without a soldering iron. > > Get a 5 pin Din to 4 RCA phono connector cable. Easy to get from (say) > Radio Shack. > > Use the pin 4 plug as composite out. Short the pin 5 plug by wrapping > wire around the pin and outer casing (this links ground, on pin 5 ,to the > screen of all the cables, and to pin 2 on the DIN plug, which is not > connected in the Model 1). Make sure the pin 1 plug doesn't short out - > it's connected to the +5V line in the computer. This works beautifully, Tony! The letters are a bit unclear in 64 columns on my C=1802 but I suspect that would still be the case even if I had a proper video cable. (That CHR$(23) trick for fat letters is pretty cool.) > > Maybe somebody should take my collection away from me before I blow > > something up. ;) > > I think a better solution would be for someone to donate a pile of > service manuals to you. Not my pile though :-) A pile of service manuals, proper tools, an education (or a brain transplant from you or Alison), and more free time is what I need. I hate having all these great old machines and no clue about how to fix them if anything went wrong. :/ Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Jun 21 06:32:18 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: Old Microsoft stuff... In-Reply-To: <19980616204006.28822.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Is there anyone who DIDN'T make a UNIX port? > Apple - A/UX > IBM - AIX > MS - Xenix > AT&T - UNIX Commodore - AMIX Just to get the CRTC-enforced required Commodore content into this thread. ;) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From fauradon at pclink.com Sun Jun 21 07:35:22 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) Message-ID: <010201bd9d11$2059c1c0$0100a8c0@francois> So how much do you sell you hair for? ;) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, June 20, 1998 11:23 PM Subject: Re: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) >On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Desie Hay wrote: > >> its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete >> Computer helpline: >> >> >> Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.> >> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02 >> >> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT >> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576 > >Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@wco.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2! > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details > [Last web page update: 06/18/98] > From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Jun 21 08:17:41 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:43 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) Message-ID: <002c01bd9d19$544b34c0$ec8b2599@mainoffice> >>What really scrapes my oxide is an approach that I am starting to see more >>often in postings in and newsgroups. (it has happened to me twice now in >>the last month) >>Someone posts an item with an asking price. I respond to the message with >>a counter offer. The seller responds with a counter-counter offer that I >>find acceptable. I respond to the message with my acceptance and provide >>shipping details. The seller then responded back indicating that he has >>received a higher offer and that the unit has been sold without so much as >>an opportunity for further response. Although I've participated in "auctions" of this type, I haven't gotten shanked by another bidder. I can see how easy the private auction process can be abused. I sometimes find myself doubtful of the bid increments that I've seen; too easy to fake interest to inflate the price. >>BTW: a HERO-2000 auction just closed on eBay for $4027.78... (sheesh!) I always wanted one of these when I was a kid. Wasn't it about $2k new? Unbelievable. Classic computers and robots, the next Beanie Babies! >>-jim (the obviously overly idealistic one...) Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin! Charter Member - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Preserver of "classic" computers <<<< ========== reply separator ========== >>>>> From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 21 11:13:22 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: BULL - XPS 120 - HELP! In-Reply-To: References: <13364329847.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >I have a BULL XPS 120 (or 100 not sure) .. either way its a Mini Frame.. Not sure if I should congratulate or pity you. Is this any relation to the Honeywell systems that Bull bought off of Honeywell? In any case it's a really cool sounding setup! >question is how do I do this :). I am fairly knowledable with Unix.. >etc..and I have ALL the docuamentation, and DISKS that came with it. and >terminals ..etc Can anyone help me get this pumping :).. Also I heard In this I envy you, I'm never that lucky! I've one question, are you sure it runs UNIX? Or does it run GCOS? Unfortunatly all my experience was with the DPS-8 Mainframe, with a little time on a couple different DPS-6's. On a slightly interesting note, I've seen a DPS-6 emulation on a HP9000 so the Navy could run certain legacy apps. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 21 07:37:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 21, 98 05:36:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2161 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980621/25a3499e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 21 07:42:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <199806210124.AA29454@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 20, 98 09:24:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1409 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980621/184fdd50/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jun 21 12:17:44 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: <010201bd9d11$2059c1c0$0100a8c0@francois> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Francois wrote: > So how much do you sell you hair for? ;) > >> > >> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT > >> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576 > > > >Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass. I posted on eBay "+++!!!RARE - collector's ASS HAIR!!!+++". Unfortunately, no one bid. I guess those guys do have enough brain cells to make an AND gate. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sun Jun 21 12:24:07 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: BULL - XPS 120 - HELP! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 21, 98 09:13:22 am Message-ID: <199806211724.NAA26037@shell.monmouth.com> > > >I have a BULL XPS 120 (or 100 not sure) .. either way its a Mini Frame.. A friend of mine (on the list) has been restoring a couple of MiniFrame's. (John -- any comments?) > > Not sure if I should congratulate or pity you. Is this any relation to the > Honeywell systems that Bull bought off of Honeywell? In any case it's a > really cool sounding setup! Well, the miniframe was an early Convergent Unix micro with some advanced functions... like loadable device driverss. AT&T's Unix PC (7300,3b1) were based on Convergent's work. > > >question is how do I do this :). I am fairly knowledable with Unix.. > >etc..and I have ALL the docuamentation, and DISKS that came with it. and > >terminals ..etc Can anyone help me get this pumping :).. Also I heard > > In this I envy you, I'm never that lucky! I've one question, are you sure > it runs UNIX? Or does it run GCOS? If it's a Convergent Miniframe it's usually a System V box. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sun Jun 21 12:35:14 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 Message-ID: <199806211735.AA02392@world.std.com> I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jun 21 13:18:40 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) Message-ID: <19980621181841.21895.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, I've never seen one. Then again, I've never seen your ass. Why were they black? Was it a special edition? Were the beige ones or the black ones first? > >> its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete >> Computer helpline: >> >> >> Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.> >> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02 >> >> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT >> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576 > >Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@wco.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2! > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details > [Last web page update: 06/18/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jun 21 13:25:42 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 Message-ID: <19980621182542.5664.qmail@hotmail.com> I personally think that $50 is max for any desktop computer over 10 years old, with some exceptions like Lisas and Apple Is. Anyway, some guy at the MIT flea today had a whole stack of them. What are they? > >I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for >an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | >| Digital Equipment Corporation | | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Sun Jun 21 13:30:28 1998 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 Message-ID: <5518FE2C95E6D111B1A500104B72113B0AE5D0@alfexc8.alf.dec.com> Megan - > I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for > an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price. I'd have to say probably not. I have a pair of HP-85s that I snagged in the last 18 months. One cost me $1.00 at a private school flea market and the other cost $12.50 at an auction run by Goodwill. The system from Goodwill included an HP padded travel case -- in fact, the system was originally stacked with some luggage and had not been bought during that portion of the auction. I found out after I pointed the system out to the auctioneer and bought it when they auctioned off the rest of the computer stuff (usually C64s, Atari, and the occasional Apple IIc or Mac Plus) that I could have simple asked for a "no bid" sale for the last bid price in the luggage area and gotten the system for $3.50. -- Tony Eros NSIS - ENS/Internet Wilmington, DE -----Original Message----- From: mbg@world.std.com [SMTP:mbg@world.std.com] Sent: Sunday, June 21, 1998 1:35 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: HP 85 I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jun 21 13:30:38 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Sun 3/50 Message-ID: <19980621183038.6983.qmail@hotmail.com> My visit to the MIT Flea today was unproductive. But, so it wouldn't be wasted, I grabbed a Sun 3/50 for $1. It seems to work, and is in good condition. I looked at the board, it has a 68020. Can someone tell me more? Also, how do I hook it up to a terminal? Which pins do I need? I plugged my Mac in, but it didn't show anything. My Mac serial cable only has pins 2,3,6,7,8, and 21. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 21 15:07:34 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 In-Reply-To: <199806211735.AA02392@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jun 21, 98 01:35:14 pm Message-ID: <9806211907.AA17446@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 587 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980621/5602d3b1/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jun 21 14:29:59 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 Message-ID: <19980621193000.9217.qmail@hotmail.com> So how much do you want for my two gallons of distilled enjoyment :) >Others might disagree with my definition of "worth", but if you think >you'll get more than $100 of enjoyment out of the setup, then I'd say >it's worth it. > >With all the discussions lately about auctions and pricing, I think >folks are losing sight that collecting classic computers is something >that we do for fun, not as an investment! Personally, I get far more >delight from restoring and using the machines than I do from bragging >about what I own. > >Tim. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jun 21 14:33:10 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 In-Reply-To: <199806211735.AA02392@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Megan wrote: > I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for > an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price. Well, the printer and tape drive are built-in. I paid $20 for mine a year back. I'd try to talk the guy down to $50 if I could. I think $100 is a bit too high. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jun 21 14:34:51 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: <19980621181841.21895.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Well, I've never seen one. Then again, I've never seen your ass. > Why were they black? Was it a special edition? Were the beige ones > or the black ones first? The black Apple II is basically a Bell & Howell branded Apple ][+ in a black case. Cool looking, but they were made and sold in the thousands to schools. Not rare, maybe just uncommon depending on where you're at. I've never seen one, but I know of many who have, and many who have seen hundreds. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 21 15:22:41 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: <19980621181841.21895.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980621152241.006c9eb4@pop3.concentric.net> The black ones were made for Bell and Howell to use in training classes mostly, you purchased them from Bell not Apple. I have about 4 of them. At 11:18 AM 6/21/98 PDT, you wrote: > > > > >Well, I've never seen one. Then again, I've never seen your ass. >Why were they black? Was it a special edition? Were the beige ones >or the black ones first? >> >>> its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete >>> Computer helpline: >>> >>> >>> Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.> >>> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02 >>> >>> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT >>> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576 >> >>Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass. >> >>Sam Alternate e-mail: >dastar@wco.com >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >> >> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2! >> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details >> [Last web page update: 06/18/98] >> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From rax at warbaby.com Sun Jun 21 17:08:05 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <199806210124.AA29454@world.std.com> Message-ID: Allison wrote: > >I've used realy logic for machine control, operating speed 2 to 5 sec per >interation so fast was not a required thing. Doing sequential work using >relays and switches is really fun. Of course all that drove air valves >so there was air logic too. ;) Oh, and you can do logic with air valves, >air one shots, even flipflops. So what you're saying is that my dream of a steam-driven computer isn't the ravings of a madman after all... R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 21 18:10:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <199806212310.AA04363@world.std.com> Message-ID: <358D94E2.7BA913B8@rain.org> Megan wrote: > > I just wanted to find out if people on this list think that $100 for > an HP85 with printer and tape drive is a fair price. It may well be depending on what came with it. I bought an HP85 for $5 and an HP85B for $15 a couple of weeks ago. Still haven't fired them up to see if they work though. From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 21 18:30:30 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: This weeks haul References: <199806211735.AA02392@world.std.com> <358D94E2.7BA913B8@rain.org> Message-ID: <358D9796.4ED216AB@rain.org> Had another great weekend at the annual Santa Maria Swapfest. I picked up a Kaypro 2 for $15 for the heck of it, and a model 100 in the original box with service manual for $50. I thought the model 100 was a bit high, but this is the only one I have now in the original box. Later ran across an Epson PX-8 w/ docs and an Epson HX-20 w/ expansion unit in the hard plastic carrying case. Some other stuff was included that I haven't had a chance to look at yet. Price for the two Epsons and other stuff was $50. Additionally, I met Paul Andresen who did some stuff in the early 80's and had ads running in (IIRC) Kilobaud magazine. Another gentleman was associated with Vandenburg Memory Products (name?) and filled me in on a bit of history. I will be attempting to contact both and of course send them this listserver address. They sounded like they might be interested in attending VCF 2.0. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 21 17:01:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 In-Reply-To: <199806211735.AA02392@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jun 21, 98 01:35:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 835 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980621/39e3240b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 21 17:05:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 In-Reply-To: <19980621182542.5664.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 21, 98 11:25:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 709 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980621/e212145b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 21 17:12:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 In-Reply-To: <9806211907.AA17446@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 21, 98 12:07:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1137 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980621/69c8aa8b/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jun 21 19:05:36 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > All-in-one HP computers. They've got HP basic built-in in ROM, built in > monitor, thermal printer and tape drive, etc. Option include an assembler > in ROM, HPIB interface (with disk drives, printers, plotters, etc), other > ROMs, RS232 interface, etc, etc, etc. Being HP they're very custom inside > - even the CPU is custom with a non-standard instruction set. I just realized that the HP85 is eerily similar to the IBM 5100: integrated keyboard, display and tape drive, built-in BASIC. The only thing it had that the 5100 didn't was a built-in printer. I wonder if there was an APL option for the 85? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 21 20:54:50 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Recent Commodore finds... References: <199806210702.AAA29685@lists4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <358DB96A.DD05312D@goldrush.com> What a surprising day, went to the Stockton Delta College Flea Market (in California) and found a couple goodies... First I bought an SX-64 keyboard and C-128 in the $1.00 section of someones space. I bought the SX keyboard cause I have a second (dead) SX without one the 128 was because I felt sorry for them having to break a 20 (also I figured if it was dead I could use its keyboard with that keyboardless 128D I have). After wandering a bit my wife shows up with a keyboardless SX-64 also from the same booth's dollar section, what a wonderful woman! (I must've missed that SX, better have my eyes checked!). Anyway $3.00 spent and get home to discover the 128 works (missing the F3 key) and the SX has some issues but seems functional (does not boot to BASIC, just a black screen, but does run carts ok, probably bad BASIC/KERNEL ROMs also keyboard connector/curcuitry needs work too.) So far I have bought 3 128s (real cheap) with the plan to use the (supposed dead 128's) keyboard on the D to discover it was not even a dead machine after all. Well Sam, (who finds many a dead Commodore 8-bit) I guess Commodore spirits aren't with you. :) Almost was tempted to buy a few of someone else's Mac problems (nice seller, he told the truth on all of em), but I figured I'd play it smart (this time). -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Jun 21 22:40:13 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Help! RA82, etc. Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980621204013.00e674c0@mail.jps.net> OK... I've got a MicroVAX II almost ready to go. However, I'm handicapped by my lack of any documentation for the RA82 disk drive. The problem: When spun up, even when connected to the KDA50 controller, the drive gets up to speed, seeks a couple of times, and then lights 'Fault.' I'll press the 'Fault' button to try and reset. On the first press, 'Run/Stop' and 'Write Protect' flash. On the second press, it goes through its seek-and-fault cycle again. My question: Do I even have the thing wired right? Could someone familiar with this stuff describe to me which cable goes where, just to make sure I'm not hallucinating? The controller seems OK. It passes its internal and service diagnostics, and when I stare at the LEDs on the two boards long enough I can see some sort of fast scanning sequence going on about every 5-7 seconds. I can, if need be, open up the RA82 and see which internal LEDs come up. Any and all help appreciated. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mbg at world.std.com Sun Jun 21 23:21:16 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 Message-ID: <199806220421.AA21069@world.std.com> >I personally think that $50 is max for any desktop computer over 10 >years old, with some exceptions like Lisas and Apple Is. Anyway, some >guy at the MIT flea today had a whole stack of them. What are they? Those are the ones I saw as well... he was asking $25 for a broken one (but cosmetically pretty good) and $100 for the working ones. If I remember correctly, they are essentially a BASIC computer with printer and something similar to a TU58 drive. It's just that I remember using one at WPI when I was there in the 70's and wanted to get one for my collection... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jun 21 23:57:23 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: 9 TRK Drives, Oz, Driving In-Reply-To: <199806170436.OAA10601@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: And just in case you thought I'd lost my mind... I was re-reading my last missive to you... the motorhome is slightly smaller than I described it... 5.2 meters. Let's see: metric system, ah yes, meter = three feet more or less, 12.5 x 3 = 37.5.... sigh. I don't even know where the 12.5 figure came from... oh well. I look forward to hearing from you.... Cheers (decaf! Decaf!! dammit...) John From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Jun 22 00:05:41 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Sorry Message-ID: Sorry for the personal message... I told Pine *not* to reply to the Group, but... BAD Pine! BAD! BAD! Sorry again.... I will wear a Luser hat and sit in the corner for an hour trying to find a missing comma in the middle of a 6 Mb hex core-dump. Cheers John From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jun 22 01:29:04 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980621183954.552f597e@ricochet.net> At 08:01 PM 6/18/98 +1, you wrote: >Robotron ? > >Talking about the East German Computers ? Robotron is also a video game ca. 1981-2 (Williams, iirc) that was semi-unique in that it used dual joysticks -- one to control movement and one to control firing direction -- and in order to be at all successful at the game one had to be able to operate the two completely independantly of each other. Other, similar games included Sinistar (no relation, and don't even go there) and one whose name I forgot that had to do with spiders and webs. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jun 22 01:29:08 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980621190722.5b5f184e@ricochet.net> At 07:56 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >I've got a Joust I might let go for something tasty. It's the same >system board, you only need to swap the ROMs and re-work the control >panel ;) ROM's might be possible, but a Robotron game gets a lot of heavy-duty usage; I don't think I could trust any mods I would make to the controls. 8^( --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jun 22 01:29:16 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980621200237.552f7922@ricochet.net> At 10:13 AM 6/20/98 -0700, you wrote: >>After a round of email bidding, the seller sez: >>Somebody recently suggested that it would be better to offer stuff >>directly to readers of this list rather than advertising them via online I seem to remember that eBay offers private auctions -- you put something up for bid and just tell the people you want about it. That sort of thing might facilitate auctioning things off to list members. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jun 22 01:36:50 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Atari SLMC804 Laser - What Is It? Message-ID: Ok Atari-heads, what the hell is an SLMC804 Laser? It looks like some sort of SCSI adapter. Its an external device the size of an external modem. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From desieh at southcom.com.au Mon Jun 22 01:45:22 1998 From: desieh at southcom.com.au (Desie Hay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) Message-ID: <001001bd9da9$5a983400$db173ccb@mr-ibm> email: desieh@southcom.com.au desieh@bigfoot.com museum_curator@hotmail.com Apple Lisa Web Page: http://www.southcom.com.au/~desieh/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, June 22, 1998 4:20 Subject: Re: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) they where used in school in the states, the where called I think "bell & Howards" they also came with the lid screwed down..........to stop the little ones touching the "shiny" bits inside.......... > > > > >Well, I've never seen one. Then again, I've never seen your ass. >Why were they black? Was it a special edition? Were the beige ones >or the black ones first? >> >>> its just getting worse by the minute check this out from the Obsolete >>> Computer helpline: >>> >>> >>> Matt Antonellis <206-343-7576 P.S.T.> >>> seattle, wa usa - Friday, June 19, 1998 at 18:43:02 >>> >>> FOR SALE: $500 rare BLACK AppleIIplus very good condition call MATT >>> ANTONELLIS in SEATTLE 206-343-7576 >> >>Rare my hairy ass. This is about as rare as the hair on my ass. >> >>Sam Alternate e-mail: >dastar@wco.com >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >> >> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2! >> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details >> [Last web page update: 06/18/98] >> >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 22 05:58:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: BULL - XPS 120 - HELP! References: <199806211724.NAA26037@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <358E38C9.62209103@cnct.com> Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > > > >I have a BULL XPS 120 (or 100 not sure) .. either way its a Mini Frame.. > > A friend of mine (on the list) has been restoring a couple of MiniFrame's. > (John -- any comments?) > > > > > Not sure if I should congratulate or pity you. Is this any relation to the > > Honeywell systems that Bull bought off of Honeywell? In any case it's a > > really cool sounding setup! > > Well, the miniframe was an early Convergent Unix micro with some advanced > functions... like loadable device driverss. > > AT&T's Unix PC (7300,3b1) were based on Convergent's work. No, the AT&T Unix PC, hardware and OS, _was_ Convergent's work with some design parameters input by AT&T. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From franke at sbs.de Mon Jun 22 08:09:00 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Atari SLMC804 Laser - What Is It? Message-ID: <199806221056.MAA29581@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Ok Atari-heads, what the hell is an SLMC804 Laser? It looks like some > sort of SCSI adapter. Its an external device the size of an external > modem. One of the 'Power without the Price' products from ATARI. basicly a 300 dpi Laser unit with only minimal control logic (only a bit map buffer for one (?) line of graphic. Connection to the ST computers where made via the ACSI port - ATARIs castarated version of SCSI used for the ST Harddisk. The whole font and page processing had to be done by the host computer - but the Printer was availabel for less than 2000 Mark (~1300 USD) when new - only haf the price of the cheapest 'regular' laser printer. Servus Hans PS.: 20c for THE hair (but only if a nice poly acryl display case is included). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Mon Jun 22 08:13:36 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <199806221100.NAA00024@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> It can't be as bad as the Science Museum in London, surely. I was there >>> earlier this week, and what a _joke_!!! >> I never been there - hmm maybe I should tak a weekend - is >> there a Website to get the opening hours ? > Well, IMHO, it's worth the admission charge (\pounds 6.50 (!)) if you're > interested in things other than classic computers. But it's not worth it > for the computers alone. > I've been interested in clocks for about 25 years or more, so seeing a > Synchronome working (even if the description wasn't that good) was worth > it. Ditto for a lot of the other clocks (going back many centuries) - > most of them are ticking away... > Alas they've added some of those 'interactive' experiments. While a good > idea in theory, I'm not sure they should be combined with collections of > historical scientific instruments, etc. The groups of people interested > in the two displays would have virtually no intersection IMHO. Hmm. The Deutsches Museum is a 'hands-on'/'interactive') museum since the first years, and the combination of historic displays and learning works fine - at least for me. >> Ok, the 2002 wouldn't be exactly the machine for continous >> display in action, but even if it is just as static display, > No, but fire it up from time to time to show it in operation. Even just 1 > or 2 days a year. Announce the days in advance and the hackers can come > along and see a real machine in operation >> this one time running test ist the best verification that the >> static display is _complete_. >> (In fact, the critical part of the 2002 is the storage drum - >> even back in time when it was new, every power up and down >> had to be guarded by tecnicans - hmm but even here, since >> the drum is a closed device, one could replace it (invisible) >> by a modern electronic emulation... just thinking) > Oh, back the heads off the drum and replace it with a set of RAMs and > counters :-). Keep the drum turning, and demonstrate the machine with > more modern memory (at least for day-to-day operation). Exactly my idea of a display ... Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Mon Jun 22 08:16:31 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806221103.NAA00297@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Well, let me modify that slightly. It's only disgusting in that it's >> going to be preventing people like the folks here on classiccmp from >> getting their hands on systems and taking proper care of them. Sure, > Yes, I agree 100%. As an example, one of the machines I would like is an > Apple Lisa. Not because it's collectable, but because I'd like to compare > Apple's extension of the work at Xerox PARC with the PERQ and with a > Xerox D-machine. In other words I want to strip a Lisa down, hook a logic > analyser up to it, and hack it to hell and back. In then end I'd still > have a working Lisa, and I'd have a stack of notes as to what really goes > on inside one. > But there's no way I can afford a Lisa at the current collector's prices. > So, alas, there's a gap in the collection :-( So, would you trade an Imsai 8080 for a Lisa 2? >> we all collect computers for the sake of collecting, but most of us >> really enjoy keeping them running and taking care of them, and can > Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers are in any sense > being preserved properly. I would doubt if ROMs were ever backed up or > PSUs tested. Heck, distribution disks are probably not backed up even. > I'll admit I sometimes damage the fabric of a classic, but I'm a lot more > careful than that. Full working, in dayly use (ok, at least once a week. >> Lucky for me, the computers I really love the most are the ones NOT >> found on Ebay. I've never seen a PDP8 or a PDP11 on Ebay, for instance. > Ditto, actually. I don't want an Altair, amazingly. Well, if somebody was > throwing one out I'd save it, but it's not a machine I'm looking for. In > fact, as I mentioned here once before, when 10 year ago I was offered the > choice between an Altair and an Intellec MCS8i, I grabbed the latter. deal ! Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From higginbo at netpath.net Mon Jun 22 07:47:20 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: WTB/T: Conner hard drives In-Reply-To: <199806221103.NAA00297@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980622084720.00825bc0@netpath.net> I am need of either of these hard drives: Conner CP-3044 3.5" 40mb (42mb actual?) IDE hard drive Conner CP-3??? (CP-3244?) 3.5" 100mb (110mb actual?) IDE hard drive I have this GRiDCASE 1535 laptop (circa 1989) that has a fixed drive table in the BIOS. No way to use any other drive besides the two above, and a Conner 20mb, which I can't really use because of space factor. Anyone? Anyone? ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Jun 22 08:32:20 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: WTB/T: Conner hard drives Message-ID: >> Conner CP-3044 3.5" 40mb (42mb actual?) IDE hard drive rats, I had a whole heap of these a while ago but disposed of them all - they seem extremely unreliable and kept on dying on me, so I dumped the lot... I don't know if it's true of all IDE drives, but you may be able to use a different drive; you just won't get more than the 40MB out of it... cheers J. From emu at ecubics.com Mon Jun 22 09:09:07 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Help! RA82, etc. Message-ID: <19980622135558.AAA1930@emusp6> Hi Bruce, I had most of your problems on a ra90 ... ---------- > From: Bruce Lane > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Help! RA82, etc. > Date: Sunday, June 21, 1998 9:40 PM > OK... I've got a MicroVAX II almost ready to go. However, I'm handicapped > by my lack of any documentation for the RA82 disk drive. sure you are ;-)) > The problem: When spun up, even when connected to the KDA50 controller, > the drive gets up to speed, seeks a couple of times, and then lights 'Fault.' > > My question: Do I even have the thing wired right? Could someone familiar > with this stuff describe to me which cable goes where, just to make sure > I'm not hallucinating? at least, if you are really sure, you made the right connections, test & check it again. the sdi cables are very picky, if you "made" a connection, be sure to fasten the screws also. sometimes it doesn't work without fasten it. > The controller seems OK. It passes its internal and service diagnostics, > and when I stare at the LEDs on the two boards long enough I can see some > sort of fast scanning sequence going on about every 5-7 seconds. one more shot in the dark ;-)) the ra81 & ra82 have in diagnostic port on the disks. you can get more information about the disks, if you put a terminal at it. But don't ask, i never done it, (i got my disks to run without it) try DejaNews. hope it helps a little, emanuel From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 22 05:04:19 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: WTB/T: Conner hard drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199806221400.KAA06423@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:32:20 +0100 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Julian Richardson > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: RE: WTB/T: Conner hard drives > X-To: "'classiccmp@u.washington.edu'" > rats, I had a whole heap of these a while ago but disposed of them all - > they seem extremely unreliable and kept on dying on me, so I dumped the > lot... > Hi Julian, Don't feel bad, they're no good anyway and always very slow compared to same capacity as other brands. Conner guys came from Seagate then next thing we know Seagate brought that business back! :) No small wonder... I wondered why I didn't see any more after 5 years when I could pick them up, all models by the dozen, some sick some working. Must be failures and time did them in. In that 3 years period saw more than 20 troubles conners myself of any types and I always see them lying around on many shop benches by bunches daily between '90 to '93. Far worse than even WD in 3.5 x 1 factors and even in seagates, other brands as well. Compareable to Miniscribes at that time too. :-) Godawful Miniscribe...even I shudder when once good Maxtor bought Miniscribe then threw away all of their Maxtor's original designs for that miniscribe's design especally the 7000 series. How dumb. Even now, we were shocked when we called up Maxtor about circuit boards and they say they don't design them and don't know who made them!!! You're been warned. We are still wary about the Maxtor current new designs in shipping, performance is getting there but never the same yet. Last time I saw one was last saturday still spinning in one old 386sx 16 machine. CP3044 btw. Take care... Jason D. > cheers > > J. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu Mon Jun 22 10:01:33 1998 From: mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: COMODORE=TANDY In-Reply-To: <358B3099.7AB1E608@cnct.com>; from Ward Donald Griffiths III on Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 11:46:33PM -0400 References: <3.0.32.19980618224943.006b9d6c@netpath.net> <3.0.1.32.19980619050011.006a2164@vader.kootenay.net> <358B3099.7AB1E608@cnct.com> Message-ID: <19980622100133.07225@zeke.as.utexas.edu> I remember back in '98 when Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > I was looking around at http://www.patents.ibm.com > > > > I discovered that Commodore Electronics held the > > patent for the case of the TRS-80 CoCo2(3?), which makes me wonder if > > they designed the rest of the computer for Radio Shack. > > > > Any Edgeumacated guesses anyone...anyone :) I recall that Commodore started buisness as a manufacturer of cases and such, so this isn't too much of a surprise. IIRC I read this in a book _The Secret Art of Computers_. I haven't heard anything about the book in years, but I remember that it was pretty interesting at the time (1987, 88?). My favortite part was the section where the author examined programming in about 2 dozen languages, from BASIC to FORTH to APL to SNOBOL .. and more. Anyone know what happened to the book (I assume it is no longer published) Matt -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@zen.as.utexas.edu -- atwork?astronomy:cs http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler -- (512)471-7450 Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 22 11:07:19 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: attn: John Keyes In-Reply-To: <5040@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806221511.KAA20610@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> I'm sorry for cluttering up the list, but our email system strips off the senders address! John, if you get this message, Please respond via private E-Mail. Thanks! - Jeff We now return you to our regualrly scheduled programme . . . From g at kurico.com Mon Jun 22 11:19:05 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: new additions, info wanted Message-ID: More fun stuff picked up this weekend: Canon Cat - A glorified word processor that was created by one of the original members of the Macintosh team. Mentor Graphics badged Apollo DN300 workstation. Whole box of Apple II cards and other misc stuff. Anyone have any info the the Canon Cat? Or manuals/software for the Apollo? Oh, I also have a couple of AT&T 6300 cpu's that I'll give to anyone who wants them (don't know if they work, don't have time to check them out). I also have a AT&T 3B2-310 with external expansion unit (XM something or other) for sale or trade, make me an offer I can't refuse :) BTW I'm in Austin, TX. George From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jun 22 13:03:27 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <9805228985.AA898563890@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >>Yes, but Pascal was born in 1623 so Schickard's device most likely beats >>whatever Pascal developed in his lifetime (I think he was 18 when he >>invented it). > > Late-comers, all of them. My vote for the earliest computer is the > Antikythera Device, a bronze mechanical lunar month calculator built in > Greece about 80AD. > > Shickard's "Calculating Clock" was the next mechanical calculator of record > in 1623, followed by Blaise Pascal's "Pascaline" in 1642, Samuel Morland's > mechanical calculator in 1666, Gottfried Leibnez' "Stepped Reckoner" in > 1674, Phillip-Malthus Hahn's calculating machines (the first sold > commercially) in 1774, and the third Earl of Stanhope's multiplying > calculator in 1777. The first mass-produced calculating machine was Thomas > de Colmar's "Arithmometer" in 1820. Good point. Many early clocks were (or contained) primitive analogue computers, so I think you win there... sort of. Two books to look at: "The Mediaeval Machine" by J. Gimpel and "A History of Engineering in Classical and Mediaeval Times" by D. R. Hill. Gimpel will fill several holes in your timeline - Su Sung made quite a complicated astronomical clock in c. 1090; the middle ages saw a sizeable crop of similar machines in the west, culminating in that of Giovanni Dondi, under development from 1348 until 1364. Hill's treatment of clocks is also interesting. He points out that the Classical civilisations had (presumably inherited from the ancients) a system by which the hour changed in length depending on the date so that sunrise to sunset was always twelve hours. Thus ordinary timekeeping clocks had to combine time and date in an analogue computer to get hour-number out at the end. Some of the mechanisms Hill describes get this quite wrong! (I don't recall any of these clocks also taking account of lattitude...) OK. I'll go for the Z1 as the first _general purpose_ computer. Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 22 12:56:23 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: available 8" disks Message-ID: <199806221756.AA27234@world.std.com> I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several hundred floppies. Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can be packed in plastic disk boxes. If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. Also I have another box load that have programs (orginal disks) of the likes of deadline, planetffall, Aventure and more. Allison From van at wired.com Mon Jun 22 13:11:56 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980621183954.552f597e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Uncle Roger... What do you mean, there's no relation? They are both William's titles...and therefore have very similar hardware structures (6809E CPU, 5 PCBs, color depth/resolution, 4-bit blitter chip, etc.). The only difference in Sinistar is the addition of 2 SRAMs, a different interface board (for dual joysticks), blitter clipper circuit and an additional sound board for stereo effects in the cockpit model. I would say they are related... So what do you mean "don't go there?" Am I asking for it? (smile.) van >At 08:01 PM 6/18/98 +1, you wrote: >>Robotron ? >> >>Talking about the East German Computers ? > >Robotron is also a video game ca. 1981-2 (Williams, iirc) that was >semi-unique in that it used dual joysticks -- one to control movement and >one to control firing direction -- and in order to be at all successful at >the game one had to be able to operate the two completely independantly of >each other. Other, similar games included Sinistar (no relation, and don't >even go there) and one whose name I forgot that had to do with spiders and >webs. > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Mon Jun 22 13:41:43 1998 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology - miniframe In-Reply-To: <358E38C9.62209103@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jun 22, 98 06:58:17 am Message-ID: <199806221841.NAA16821@maddog.ee.nd.edu> > > Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > > > > > > >I have a BULL XPS 120 (or 100 not sure) .. either way its a Mini Frame.. > > > > A friend of mine (on the list) has been restoring a couple of MiniFrame's. > > (John -- any comments?) I do have some spares and documentation for trade if needed. I wouldn't try running more than 2 terminals on one box though. I think there were 2 terminal types - one text only(ct?, vt100 emulation) and one graphics (gt?) > > > > > > > > Not sure if I should congratulate or pity you. Is this any relation to the > > > Honeywell systems that Bull bought off of Honeywell? In any case it's a > > > really cool sounding setup! > > > > Well, the miniframe was an early Convergent Unix micro with some advanced > > functions... like loadable device driverss. > > > > AT&T's Unix PC (7300,3b1) were based on Convergent's work. > > No, the AT&T Unix PC, hardware and OS, _was_ Convergent's work with > some design parameters input by AT&T. > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From mor at crl.com Mon Jun 22 14:02:50 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa References: <3.0.16.19980621183954.552f597e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <358EAA5A.1EBE29BC@crl.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 08:01 PM 6/18/98 +1, you wrote: > >Robotron ? > > > >Talking about the East German Computers ? > > Robotron is also a video game ca. 1981-2 (Williams, iirc) that was > semi-unique in that it used dual joysticks -- one to control movement and > one to control firing direction -- and in order to be at all successful at > the game one had to be able to operate the two completely independantly of > each other. Other, similar games included Sinistar (no relation, and don't > even go there) and one whose name I forgot that had to do with spiders and > webs. That would be Black Widow by Atari. Mesmerizing color vector game. Stop by my garage some time if you want to play it ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/tps/ From mor at crl.com Mon Jun 22 14:08:18 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Was: Re: Cross listing Ebay items) References: <3.0.16.19980621190722.5b5f184e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <358EABA2.10833393@crl.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 07:56 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote: > >I've got a Joust I might let go for something tasty. It's the same > >system board, you only need to swap the ROMs and re-work the control > >panel ;) > > ROM's might be possible, but a Robotron game gets a lot of heavy-duty > usage; I don't think I could trust any mods I would make to the controls. 8^( Oh the Joust controls are non-useable anyway. What I meant was basically to build your own. Robotron just uses standard leaf switch 8-directional joysticks, which you can find used for a couple bucks or brand new in the 10-20 dollar range. Mount a couple at a comfortable distance into a piece of plywood the right size, add a couple of buttons for starting the game and you should be good to go. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From mor at crl.com Mon Jun 22 14:12:20 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:44 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa References: Message-ID: <358EAC94.6068D094@crl.com> Van Burnham wrote: > > Uncle Roger... > > What do you mean, there's no relation? Compare the name of the game to his last name ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From van at wired.com Mon Jun 22 15:26:41 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa In-Reply-To: <358EAC94.6068D094@crl.com> References: Message-ID: Oh, nice one! Silly silly me. Please accept my apologies for the rant...it seems I have fallen victim to the uber-geek force within. Trust that I do have a sense of humor. At least I did this morning... van >Van Burnham wrote: >> >> Uncle Roger... >> >>What do you mean, there's no relation? They are both William's >>titles...and >>therefore have very similar hardware structures (6809E >>CPU, 5 PCBs, color >>depth/resolution, 4-bit blitter chip, etc.). The >>only difference in Sinistar >>is the addition of 2 SRAMs, a different >>interface board (for dual joysticks), >>blitter clipper circuit and an >>additional sound board for stereo effects in >>the cockpit model. I would >>say they are related... >> >>So what do you mean "don't go there?" Am I asking for it? (smile.) > >Compare the name of the game to his last name ;) > >-- >mor@crl.com >http://www.crl.com/~mor/ ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From gpine at gri.org Mon Jun 22 15:38:36 1998 From: gpine at gri.org (gpine@gri.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: Intelus/NEC laptop Message-ID: <8625662B.00706DB1.00@chilnnt01.gri.org> I recently acquired a laptop that appears to be an NEC PC-8201 with a label of a company named Intelus on the front where the PC-8201 label would be. There is also a serial number label on the back that lists the address of Intelus as in Rockville, Maryland. In addition, it has a miniature connector labeled phone on the back in place of the second SIO connector (maybe the unit has an internal modem? I haven't opened it up to check), and it has an additional small removable panel on the back that provides access to an edge-card connector on the motherboard. My machine has nothing plugged into this connector. The machine fires up showing BASIC, TELCOM, and TEXT programs in ROM, and the BASIC program even says PC-8201 Basic, verson 1.1. The machine is in all other respects (keyboard, display, battery pack, ROM access, and external connectors) identical to my PC-8201. Is anyone familiar with this machine? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jun 22 16:15:58 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: new additions, info wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, George Currie wrote: > Canon Cat - A glorified word processor that was created by one of the original > members of the Macintosh team. > > Anyone have any info the the Canon Cat? Or manuals/software for the Apollo? Other than the fact that its 68000 based, no. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From cad at gamewood.net Mon Jun 22 16:40:07 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: available 8" disks References: <199806221756.AA27234@world.std.com> Message-ID: <358ECF37.226A@gamewood.net> Allison J Parent wrote: > > I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several > hundred floppies. > > Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. > > Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. > > Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can > be packed in plastic disk boxes. > > If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. > > Also I have another box load that have programs (orginal disks) of the > likes of deadline, planetffall, Aventure and more. > > Allison Next question? WFERE is 'local'?? Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From hills at frontiernet.net Mon Jun 22 18:14:34 1998 From: hills at frontiernet.net (The Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: Tandy DWP-210 For Sale!!! Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980622191434.0079e1f0@frontiernet.net> Classic daisy-wheel printer for sale. http://www.frontiernet.net/~hills/dwp.htm From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 22 12:46:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: Atari SLMC804 Laser - What Is It? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 21, 98 11:36:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2153 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980622/595de693/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 22 13:13:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <199806221100.NAA00024@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 22, 98 01:14:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1801 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980622/2a6c424d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 22 13:16:36 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806221103.NAA00297@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 22, 98 01:17:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1073 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980622/71b55796/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 22 13:24:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? In-Reply-To: <9805228985.AA898563890@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jun 22, 98 06:03:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1228 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980622/a652cbcd/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 22 18:46:29 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980622191434.0079e1f0@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: Saturday at the local swapmeet, I picked up a MicroVAX 2000. It is a neat little package, but now that I have it what can I do with it? And how do I do it? This one is a Model 625NT-AA, and comes without harddisk. It appears that there is a resistor board installed to provide a load comparable to the drive on the power supply. According to a rather sketchy spec sheet that I d/l'd from DEC, it can handle a maximum 318mb local disk. Based on the 53C80 chip installed, I presume that the drive should be SCSI. At the rear of the machine are three sub-D connectors, one each 25-pin, 15-pin, and 9-pin. What are their functions? The 15 and 9 are presently encumbered by a plugin box that has three RJ45(?) connectors. Network link? I have not had any real success in discovering anything in the way of documentation for this critter on DEC. Am I looking the wrong place? - don From peacock at simconv.com Mon Jun 22 18:58:00 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E945@NT486> > Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers > are in any sense being preserved properly. I would doubt > if ROMs were ever backed up or PSUs tested. Hmm, IMSAI's didn't have ROMs (or PALs and FPGAs, programmable logic had yet to be invented), unless you added them in yourself. As for checking the power supply, an IMSAI was extremely easy to eyeball...huge transformer, diodes, and beer can size capacitors. One problem I never had with IMSAIs was in the power supply, the design was right out of Electronics 101, nothing beats a big lump of iron for simplicity. Now rust might be a problem... Actually, the only real problem I've ever found with S-100s is the bus connectors wearing out. I have an old Ithaca Intersystems DPS-1 in need of a replacement Morrow motherboard. Well, not really in a hurry to fix it, all the Ithaca boards have been in the IMSAI for the last 10 years, but I hate to throw out the DPS-1 since it had the neat front panel with the PDP style toggle switches. Jack Peacock From peacock at simconv.com Mon Jun 22 19:19:08 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E946@NT486> > This one is a Model 625NT-AA, and comes without harddisk. It appears that there is a resistor board installed to provide a load comparable to the drive on the power supply. According to a rather sketchy spec sheet that I d/l'd from DEC, it can handle a maximum 318mb local disk. Based on the 53C80 chip installed, I presume that the drive should be SCSI. > Not exactly, the SCSI port is only for a tape drive, a TK50Z (an early ancestor to modern DLT drives). A uVAX 2000 uses MFM drives, either a Microplis 1325/DEC RD53 (70MB) or a Maxtor 2190/DEC RD54 (159MB). In order to load VMS you really need the RD54, 70MB is too small. The HD controller is the 40 pin SMC chip on the motherboard. Oddball MFM format, not compatible with WD HDCs, but the 2000 has a formatter in the ROM. The 318MB figure comes from using two RD54 drives (159 each). > At the rear of the machine are three sub-D connectors, one each 25-pin, 15-pin, and 9-pin. What are their functions? The 15 and 9 are presently encumbered by a plugin box that has three RJ45(?) connectors. Network link? > The 25 pin is the TTA2 port, RS423 (close to RS232) with full modem support (sort of). The 9 pin is TTA3:, another RS423 serial port for a local printer or terminal, but not wiored like a PC 9 pin serial. The 15 pin is for a workstation cable and carries the video (the coax connector on the little box), plus a keyboard and mouse connector (TTA0: and TTA1: serial ports). They are not RJ45s. You should also have a BNC coax connector for 10Base5 thinwire ethernet. For more info check the comp.os.vms and comp.sys.dec newsgroups, they have lots of FAQs for uVAX 2000s. I don't know the URLs but if you post a question on one of the ngs they will direct you to the web page. BTW, I might have an expansion memory board left for a uvax 2000, i'll check the old DEC scrap box. IIRC it brings one up to either 8 or 14MB of RAM. (a uVAX II maxes out at 16MB of RAM) Jack Peacock From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 22 19:29:44 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980622191434.0079e1f0@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: > > Saturday at the local swapmeet, I picked up a MicroVAX 2000. It is a > neat little package, but now that I have it what can I do with it? And > how do I do it? I'm not sure how simular this is to a VAXstation 2000, but the VS2000 has the advantage of being able to format the MFM disks (not sure if this is true with the uV2000). You might want to check the MicroVAX/VAXstation FAQ at http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/mvax_faq.html Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Jun 22 19:34:44 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jun 22, 98 04:46:29 pm Message-ID: <199806230034.RAA14815@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4182 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980622/1cf344d6/attachment.ksh From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Jun 22 19:37:40 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E945@NT486> from "Jack Peacock" at Jun 22, 98 04:58:00 pm Message-ID: <199806230037.RAA14839@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980622/85632e9c/attachment.ksh From kkant at tiger.hastings.esu9.k12.ne.us Mon Jun 22 19:42:53 1998 From: kkant at tiger.hastings.esu9.k12.ne.us (Ken Kant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: BULL - XPS 120 - HELP! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I am posive that it runs unix, all the disks ..etc say it runs System V, so I am for sure :) Not sure about the history .. if it was bought from Honeywell or not.. I am not very knowleagable with minis.. I am more into miros :) Thanks :) Kenny On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I have a BULL XPS 120 (or 100 not sure) .. either way its a Mini Frame.. > > Not sure if I should congratulate or pity you. Is this any relation to the > Honeywell systems that Bull bought off of Honeywell? In any case it's a > really cool sounding setup! > > >question is how do I do this :). I am fairly knowledable with Unix.. > >etc..and I have ALL the docuamentation, and DISKS that came with it. and > >terminals ..etc Can anyone help me get this pumping :).. Also I heard > > In this I envy you, I'm never that lucky! I've one question, are you sure > it runs UNIX? Or does it run GCOS? > > Unfortunatly all my experience was with the DPS-8 Mainframe, with a little > time on a couple different DPS-6's. On a slightly interesting note, I've > seen a DPS-6 emulation on a HP9000 so the Navy could run certain legacy > apps. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > From kkant at tiger.hastings.esu9.k12.ne.us Mon Jun 22 19:47:44 1998 From: kkant at tiger.hastings.esu9.k12.ne.us (Ken Kant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: BULL - XPS 120 - HELP! In-Reply-To: <199806211724.NAA26037@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: Then I believe it would be a Convergent Mini, because it does run System V, what does "Convergent" mean? There were actually to cases that came with this system (each about the size of a dishwasher) and I was told the two systems ran parralell to each other or something.. they were hooked together. The second case and components is trashed but the one I do have is in very good condition. It is an XPS-100 after I did some checking. Also it has 3, 340 meg ESDI drives sitting in it.. and about 16 meg of ram. plus a tape backup, and 5.25 floppy drive. Also I have more terminal cards, and procesor cards also.. to stick in it. How does one go about re-installing System V unix? Kenny From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 22 20:18:53 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: BULL - XPS 120 - HELP! References: Message-ID: <358F027D.FD27BD9D@cnct.com> Ken Kant wrote: > > Then I believe it would be a Convergent Mini, because it does run System > V, what does "Convergent" mean? There were actually to cases that came > with this system (each about the size of a dishwasher) and I was told > the two systems ran parralell to each other or something.. they were > hooked together. The second case and components is trashed but the one I > do have is in very good condition. It is an XPS-100 after I did some > checking. Also it has 3, 340 meg ESDI drives sitting in it.. and about 16 > meg of ram. plus a tape backup, and 5.25 floppy drive. Also I have more > terminal cards, and procesor cards also.. to stick in it. How does one > go about re-installing System V unix? Convergent Technologies of San Jose California built a number of Unix and other platforms, most of which were OEMed by other companies -- NCR, Burroughs, Sperry, AT&T are the most prevalent. A few years after Burroughs and Sperry merged into Unisys, they bought Convergent, so I'm an ex-Unisys person since I got there a year later. Anything you find running CTOS or CTIX is a Convergent box -- the AT&T Unix PC ran CTIX, though the name didn't show up on screen. Convergent's 68xxx systems included the Miniframe and the Megaframe that later evolved into the Convergent S-Series and the Unisys 5000 series. (When I was there I got stuck on the damned U/6000 series, with bloody Intel CPUs and ISA buses). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 22 20:29:28 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: Tandy DWP-210 For Sale!!! References: <3.0.5.32.19980622191434.0079e1f0@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: <358F04F8.21DCDC08@cnct.com> The Hills wrote: > > Classic daisy-wheel printer for sale. > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~hills/dwp.htm Not classic enough for me. Now if it were a silver-case Daisy Wheel Printer II, that'd be different. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 22 20:35:49 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 Message-ID: <199806230135.AA04800@world.std.com> < Saturday at the local swapmeet, I picked up a MicroVAX 2000. It is a < neat little package, but now that I have it what can I do with it? And < how do I do it? IT's a vax and runs VMS(fits on a RD53 or 54), Ultrix(fits on rd53 or 54) and sorta runs NETBSD(?). If you put a terminal on the DB9 (ground pin 8 to 9) it will use a standard terminal (9600, 8,n,1). The Test 50 command will display ram installed and other data about the system. VMS and ultrix runs fairly well in 4 or more meg of ram NetBSD wants 8 or more, 14mb is max. < This one is a Model 625NT-AA, and comes without harddisk. It appears IT has a hard and a floppy controller on the board (the 60 pin connector). The biggest drive it knows is the RD54 (maxtor 2990) at 159mb. It can also format hard disks and DEC floppies rx50 <400kb dual 5.25> or RX33 <1.2mb, 5.25>. < that there is a resistor board installed to provide a load comparable < to the drive on the power supply. According to a rather sketchy spec < sheet that I d/l'd from DEC, it can handle a maximum 318mb local disk. < Based on the 53C80 chip installed, I presume that the drive should be < SCSI. The 318mb of local disk is 2 RD54s. The 50 pin internal connecter is indeed SCSI... but the only device usable is an oddball version of the TK50 tape that has the ODD scsi bridge board. Reason for oddball, BOOT ROMS do not talk std SCSI nor do they boot anything other than Eithernet (BNC), Floppy, HARD disk or TK50 tape on the scsi BUS. It will not boot a SCSI disk. It can use a SCSI disk IF you supply your own driver. < At the rear of the machine are three sub-D connectors, one each 25-pin, < 15-pin, and 9-pin. What are their functions? The 15 and 9 are < presently encumbered by a plugin box that has three RJ45(?) connectors. < Network link? 25 pin is modem. 15 pin is CRT/keyboard/mouse, 9pin is serial printer or console. The MMJ adaptor bring out the serial printer, mouse and keyboard lines to RS423 serial lines for terminals (ala dec vt320). That MMJ adaptor is removeable (two screws). Network is on the AUI or BNC connector and is eithernet (10base2). They are common as house flies and as small vaxen go pretty useful and fun to run as they really don't use much power. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 22 20:36:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 Message-ID: <199806230136.AA05100@world.std.com> < A uVAX 2000 uses MFM drives, either a Message-ID: <358F0A65.25204EEA@interserv.com> Hi Allison, Can I get a few of the blanks? I could use them (If I can get around to) resurrecting my PDT-11... Thanks, Will Allison J Parent wrote: > > I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several > hundred floppies. > > Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. > > Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. > > Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can > be packed in plastic disk boxes. > > If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. > > Also I have another box load that have programs (orginal disks) of the > likes of deadline, planetffall, Aventure and more. > > Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 22 20:49:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E945@NT486> from "Jack Peacock" at Jun 22, 98 04:58:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1197 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/ae45d26a/attachment.ksh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jun 22 22:56:42 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 Message-ID: <01IYJTXU11VMB12N5N@cc.usu.edu> > Not exactly, the SCSI port is only for a tape drive, a TK50Z (an early > ancestor to modern DLT drives). Gerhard Moeller has hacked together a SCSI driver for the beast. You'll still need an MFM drive to boot from, though. He posts fairly frequently on comp.sys.dec or comp.os.vms, so it shouldn't be difficult to track him down with dejanews. > A uVAX 2000 uses MFM drives, either a > Microplis 1325/DEC RD53 (70MB) or a Maxtor 2190/DEC RD54 (159MB). In > order to load VMS you really need the RD54, 70MB is too small. Unless, of course, you install something like MicroVMS 4.5, which was current when the thing came out. I've installed 7.1 on an 40MB drive, but it was painful and it occasionally spontaneously crashes. Using Gerhard's driver, I have a nice little package containing a 40MB drive and a TZ30 tape drive to take on travel. I did have to do some metalwork hacking to get the TZ30 in; there's a cable that wanders around outside the 5.25" form factor. > The HD > controller is the 40 pin SMC chip on the motherboard. Oddball MFM > format, not compatible with WD HDCs, Well, technically, the format itself is compatible. The 2000 just adds some extra information to control bad block replacement. The PC doesn't know about the extra information and, consequently, doesn't add it. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jun 22 21:59:48 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: Atari SLMC804 Laser - What Is It? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980622162407.374f4380@ricochet.net> At 11:36 PM 6/21/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Ok Atari-heads, what the hell is an SLMC804 Laser? It looks like some >sort of SCSI adapter. Its an external device the size of an external >modem. The SLM804 Laser Printer was Tramiel's attempt at a laser-for-the-masses back when a Laser Printer was a multi-thousand-dollar item. It had no on-board intelligence or memory; it used the ST's CPU/RAM. Sounds like what you have there is the controller interface. (Plugs into the ACSI port on one end and the printer on the other.) P.S., anyone want an SLM804 in need of some repair? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Jun 22 21:59:52 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: new additions, info wanted Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980622163438.3befec30@ricochet.net> At 11:19 AM 6/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >More fun stuff picked up this weekend: > >Canon Cat - A glorified word processor that was created by one of the original >members of the Macintosh team. You really don't want a Canon Cat. Honest. Tell ya what I'm gonna do. You send it to me (heck, I'll even chip in for shipping) and I'll send you a real nice computer. Yeah, that's it. Send it to me. Bad mojo you don't want it. Trust me. 8^) Yep, Jef Raskin designed the Cat after coming up with the Mac; Apparently rather revolutionary in terms of being able to get around and do stuff with special keys. Dunno too much, but I'd sure like to learn. (And if you tell me you have a FlatCat, I'll be visiting in the middle of the night... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From g at kurico.com Mon Jun 22 22:43:18 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: new additions, info wanted In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980622163438.3befec30@ricochet.net> Message-ID: > >More fun stuff picked up this weekend: > > > >Canon Cat - A glorified word processor that was created by one of the > original > >members of the Macintosh team. > > You really don't want a Canon Cat. Honest. Tell ya what I'm gonna do. > You send it to me (heck, I'll even chip in for shipping) and I'll send you > a real nice computer. Yeah, that's it. Send it to me. Bad mojo you > don't want it. Trust me. > > 8^) > > Yep, Jef Raskin designed the Cat after coming up with the Mac; Apparently > rather revolutionary in terms of being able to get around and do stuff > with special keys. Dunno too much, but I'd sure like to learn. (And if > you tell me you have a FlatCat, I'll be visiting in the middle of the > night... 8^) I'll trade it for an Altair and an Apple 1 and most importantly, one of those rare black AppleIIplus's. What the heck is a FlatCat (uh oh, me thinks I just set myself up here). It'd be nice to find out what printers worked with it (I hear that Canon shipped a Diablo daisy wheel with it, I'll have to scrounge through the garage one of these days, I think I have one sitting around). It doesn't have cursor keys, or a pointing device. It uses these two 'leap' keys at the botton/center of the keyboard (just below the space bar). You hold one of the keys down and type the text you want to jump to. You could also jump (leap) paragraphs or even whole documents. Kinda funky. My wife seemed to pick it up pretty quickly (she thinks it all so cute with the word "cat" written in fancy letters on the keyboard). The "OS" and "BIOS" are written in Forth and apparently there is a way to access the Forth environment. It also saves/loads the entire machine state to floppy (versus saving individual files). Like I said, a funky little machine. Too bad that it'll be boxed and not seen for several months (gonna be moving soon, hopefully this apartment hopping will end soon, too dang many computers to move!). Let me know when you get the Apple 1 and I'll dig the Cat out and send it to you :) George From kyrrin at jps.net Mon Jun 22 23:27:53 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (kyrrin@jps.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: FW: Fellow's looking for a VAXen in Oz Message-ID: <35952e79.465778934@smtp.wa.jps.net> One of our fellow collectors 'down under' is apparently seeking a VS3100 or similar. If you can help, please contact him directly. Thanks in advance. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- From: <> Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: vaxstation wanted NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.134.95.117 Message-ID: <358e6062.0@139.134.5.33> Date: 22 Jun 98 13:47:14 GMT Lines: 9 Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!139.130.250.2!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nntp.telstra.net!139.134.5.33!139.134.95.117 I am after a used vaxstation 3100 or 4000 model. Must be working. Also TLZ06 DAT drive wanted. Has anyone got one for sale in Sydney, Australia area. Email me at GADTECH@bigpond.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 22 23:49:27 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 In-Reply-To: <199806230034.RAA14815@squeep.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > > Saturday at the local swapmeet, I picked up a MicroVAX 2000. > > Aaah, MicroVAX! One of my favorite computers :) Congratulations! **** snip **** > The MicroVAX and VAXstation 2000's take MFM harddrives, usually the DEC > RD-series (RD52, RD53, RD54). If you can get your hands on an RD54, > that's what you'll want -- around 170MB, plenty of room for a "full-ish" Sounds like a Maxtor 2190 clone. > VMS 5.5-2 installation. I really don't know about the resistor board, > though -- I'm afraid I've never seen one. > > Back to that SCSI -- the SCSI in the MicroVAX 2000 was for use only > with the TK50Z-FA tape drive, a 95MB cartridge tape system which looks > almost exactly like today's fancy DLT tapes (It's DLT's grandfather, > pretty much). TK50 is an extremely common format for older (early to > mid-80's) DEC software distributions. The firmware in the MicroVAX > makes it impossible to boot off of any SCSI device besides the TK50, > unfortunately. Is that the 4" square (about) tape cartridge that i see a lot of occasionally? > It sounds like you don't have the external connector option that had > a 50-pin Centronics (for the TK50) and a 50-pin D-sub connector for > external MFM drives. That means you can pretty much safely ignore the > NCR53C80, unfortunately :) No, but there are a 50-pin and a 60-pin header on the motherboard that are not presently used. **** snip **** > You didn't mention another connector, but I believe there has to be > either a BNC connector (for thinnet) or a 15-pin Thicknet connector on > the back of the system, toward the upper right. Look for a connector > that has a hash-mark (#) next to it. This is your 10mbps ethernet. > (Lance ethernet, I think?) The BNC is there, I just flat forgot to mention it. **** snip **** > a disk, your options are pretty limited right now: You can run it as > a diskless machine in a VMS VAXcluster, or you can netboot NetBSD from > another system. I've been doing that with mine for a while, and it > works fairly well, though it's tricky to set up. See: The VMS VAXcluster is not an option, but the netboot may be. > http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/vax/index.html > > for details, and > > http://world.std.com/~bdc/projects/vaxen/index.html > > for excellent info about netbooting NetBSD. > > Good luck! Thanks! I will probably need it. My only other DEC experience is with the Rainbow :) - don From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jun 23 00:00:57 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, George Currie wrote: > keyboard). The "OS" and "BIOS" are written in Forth and apparently > there is a way to access the Forth environment. It also saves/loads the Really? Cool. If you find out this is indeed true and find out how to access the OS environment then I'd love to know about it. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 23 00:03:54 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 In-Reply-To: <199806230135.AA04800@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: **** snip **** > If you put a terminal on the DB9 (ground pin 8 to 9) it will use a > standard terminal (9600, 8,n,1). The Test 50 command will display ram > installed and other data about the system. > VMS and ultrix runs fairly well in 4 or more meg of ram NetBSD wants 8 > or more, 14mb is max. It certainly seems to have a load of memory chips in it! But I didn't really try to tally the total amount. > IT has a hard and a floppy controller on the board (the 60 pin connector). Do you have a wiretable from the 60-pin to hard and floppy connectors? > The biggest drive it knows is the RD54 (maxtor 2990) at 159mb. It can > also format hard disks and DEC floppies rx50 <400kb dual 5.25> or RX33 > <1.2mb, 5.25>. Got one of those drives around here, I'm sure. **** snip **** > The 318mb of local disk is 2 RD54s. Ah so! > 25 pin is modem. 15 pin is CRT/keyboard/mouse, 9pin is serial printer > or console. The MMJ adaptor bring out the serial printer, mouse and > keyboard lines to RS423 serial lines for terminals (ala dec vt320). > That MMJ adaptor is removeable (two screws). Network is on the AUI or > BNC connector and is eithernet (10base2). That 15-pin CRT/keyboard/mouse sounds an awful lot like the Rainbow setup. Could I be so lucky? > They are common as house flies and as small vaxen go pretty useful and fun > to run as they really don't use much power. Heh heh! Hope they are not the nuisance that house flies are! Thanks Allison! - don From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 23 00:05:24 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 In-Reply-To: References: <199806230034.RAA14815@squeep.com> Message-ID: >> makes it impossible to boot off of any SCSI device besides the TK50, >> unfortunately. > >Is that the 4" square (about) tape cartridge that i see a lot of >occasionally? If they are labeled "CompacTape", yes. I'm not sure if the CompacTape II's will work in a TK-50 drive, but I've been told they will. You can not use Compact III's or IV's (not that you would want to even used they are VERY spendy). Oh, and they are light grey. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jun 23 03:32:20 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: What is the first computer? Message-ID: <9805238986.AA898617443@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Just to be different, I accidentally sent this to Hans instead of the list last night. ;-) P. ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re[6]: What is the first computer? Author: Philip Belben at PowerTech2 Date: 22/06/98 18:17 >> Was the Z3 like the Z4 in using old 35mm cine film for punched tape? >> (don't try and read it with an optical reader!!!!) > > Never heard of opto-mechanics ? *g* > > In fact all early Zuse computers used old cine tapes. > Z1, Z2, Z3, Z4. Opto mechanics? Fine. That is, fine if you want your data to be logically OR'd with the picture recorded on the film... >> Irony of the week: the >> Pascal calculator in the London Science Museum is a decimal model. That >> in the Deutches Museum is a Pounds, Shillings and Pence model. :-) > > Afaik they also own a decimal one, but Pounds, Shillings and Pence > ar _way_way_way_ more exotic :) - It gets a lot more attention than > 'just' decimal calculaters, althrough the difference are only some > of the wheels. :-) IIRC, marked Livres, Solz, and Deniers. What's Solz an abbreviation of? Solides? I thought shillings were Sous! (off topic) I've always thought the single European currency should be called a Pound because there's a word for it in almost all European languages - Pfund, Livre, Lira, Peso(?) etc. Dollar would do as well, I suppose (Thaler?). Or even Ecu (Escudo?). But Euro?!?!?!? > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK What does "HRK" mean? I apologise for taking it as your initials - our mail software strips off the header and you have to go and look for things like the Sender's name or address. (The quotation is Descartes, isn't it?) Philip. From yaksaken at hkstar.com Tue Jun 23 04:23:17 1998 From: yaksaken at hkstar.com (Ken Yaksa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! Message-ID: <199806230924.RAA13601@imsp073.netvigator.com> Hi Lawrence: Thanks for your info, I will search it up from WWW.... :) BTW, may I use any Mac emulator, and get the HD-COPY from Apple site and run it to extract the Mac disc image from an IBM directly? Yours, Ken Yaksa > There are several programs for transferring disks from a PC to Mac . > Macindos , Macsee , and IMHO the best is Macdisk . > This is a description: > macdisk.exe (249K) > Mac Disk is a PC utility to read, write, and > format Macintosh HD floppy disks. Bundled > with an Ascii converter and a utility to edit the > internal table. Contains a demo version under > Windows and a shareware version. From Pierre > Duhem. See ReadMe for additional information. > > macsq.exe (318K) > Mac SQ is a PC utility to read, write and > format Macintosh SyQuest cartridges on a PC. > Contains a demo version under Windows and a > shareware version under DOS. > > The macsq overcomes the problem of the non-MFM > 800 and 400 k flopies if you have access to a Syquest > removeable. > > I can't find the URL for this but a search should easily turn it up. > Of course if you have a working Mac you can down load to a PC > The trick is not to uncompress on the PC but simply transfer the > uncompressed files and then uncompress them with Shrinkit . > The same technique works with the Atari ST > > ciao larry > > lwalker@interlog.com From yaksaken at hkstar.com Tue Jun 23 04:19:21 1998 From: yaksaken at hkstar.com (Ken Yaksa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: available 8" disks Message-ID: <199806230924.RAA13587@imsp073.netvigator.com> Hi Allison: May I have few blank disks from you too...?? I live in Hong Kong, and I discover that I never can find 8" disks in my location! :( If so, I would pay the shipping... :) Yours, Ken Yaksa > I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several > hundred floppies. > > Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. > > Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. > > Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can > be packed in plastic disk boxes. > > If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. > > Also I have another box load that have programs (orginal disks) of the > likes of deadline, planetffall, Aventure and more. From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 23 07:37:15 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <199806231024.MAA08597@marina.fth.sbs.de> > [Science museum] >>> Alas they've added some of those 'interactive' experiments. While a good >>> idea in theory, I'm not sure they should be combined with collections of >>> historical scientific instruments, etc. The groups of people interested >>> in the two displays would have virtually no intersection IMHO. >> Hmm. The Deutsches Museum is a 'hands-on'/'interactive') museum >> since the first years, and the combination of historic displays >> and learning works fine - at least for me. > I've got no problem with working exhibits, and hands-on learning. But the > science museum already has far more stuff than it can display, so when > a lot of the space has recently been taken over with these interactive > experiments that have little to do with the historical stuff, it's a > pity. Thats maybe a difference, because the Deutsches Museum is supposed to be a learning thing - tell science and technic One special thing is that there are displays made in the 30s, 50s or 60s which are historical themself. I had some fights in the past where these displays should be removed and replaced by something 'modern'. > While I am sure that such things are educationally very valuable, if I > want to see which materials conduct electricity, I'll do it at home :-). > I want to see things that, in general, I don't have at home, and am not > likely to have at home. No. It's exactly about the 'simple' displays to tell the basic story. I don't need a 'multi media experiance' on computers, when nobody tells the story of a flip-flop or any dimple and/or/not logic (Without these _simple_ displays at the Deutsches Museum I never had understood the two-stroke engine or the exact system of the 'controls' of an steam engine in locomotives). Example: in the computer hall they have a display showing a digital counter build of acryl boxes, driven by _water_ (As I said before - the computer display is marvelous until Zuse engine - thereafter just junk). Thats the kind I'm talking about - showing the basics. > Last time I was there, they had some kind of virtual reality system (a > game of some kind, I think). I didn't investigate further, as it cost > more money to see it. Note that this wasn't an exhibition on how virtual > reality machines work, or anything like that. And it was using the space > that had once held a GWR 'Castle' locomotive and a Class 55 Deltic. Sad, but if I had to decide between just displaying a clasic engine or a hans on display, I favour the later - don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about fun rides for entertainment. The Deutsches Museum also owns an impressiv collection of railway vehicle, and some real unique pices, but they are only to show significant stages of technology, not just historic - Thats reserved for railway mueseums (btw: you have in GB a museum still without any comperable counterpart in Germany - the Tramway Museum in Chrich!). >>> Oh, back the heads off the drum and replace it with a set of RAMs and >>> counters :-). Keep the drum turning, and demonstrate the machine with >>> more modern memory (at least for day-to-day operation). >> Exactly my idea of a display ... > Right... Well, even better, teach people how to start and stop the drum > and keep the machine original, but I guess that wouldn't be practical. Nice - but dream - the drum was alredy not very reliable when it was new. It would be a huge success if it could run only once. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 23 06:32:53 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: MicroVAX 2000" (Jun 22, 22:05) References: <199806230034.RAA14815@squeep.com> Message-ID: <9806231232.ZM5713@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 22, 22:05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Is that the 4" square (about) tape cartridge that i see a lot of > >occasionally? > > If they are labeled "CompacTape", yes. I'm not sure if the CompacTape II's > will work in a TK-50 drive, but I've been told they will. No, but the other way round (CompacTape/TK50 in a CompacTapeII/TK70 drive) works. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 23 08:45:52 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806231133.NAA14307@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers >>> are in any sense being preserved properly. I would doubt >>> if ROMs were ever backed up or PSUs tested. >> Hmm, IMSAI's didn't have ROMs (or PALs and FPGAs, programmable logic had > The topic has drifted somewhat from the subject line - I wasn't only > refering to IMSAIs, but also to LISAs, etc, which most certainly do > contain ROMs. :) And also the most IMSAI I'v seen (on other boards - just to get power up a bit more comfortable :) > And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to > be backed up. Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like old magnetic tapes). Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS (real one not EPROMS without window) should live even longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or 2708 not already needed for an old computer. >> yet to be invented), unless you added them in yourself. As for checking >> the power supply, an IMSAI was extremely easy to eyeball...huge >> transformer, diodes, and beer can size capacitors. One problem I never > Yes, but there are regulators on each S100 card. If you've got a card > with rare socketed chips on it, I'd pull the chips and power up the card > without them the first time. Then check the local +5V rail, etc. It only > takes a dry joint on the ground pin of a 7805 ( or worse still, loose > screws on the TO3 canned version) to wipe out the entire board of IC's. > If you think I'm paranoid about this, I am. I've had it happen, you see, > and I don't want it to happen again. I hope you keep this attitude for the next 20 years. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 23 08:53:35 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806231140.NAA15019@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> But there's no way I can afford a Lisa at the current collector's prices. >>> So, alas, there's a gap in the collection :-( >> So, would you trade an Imsai 8080 for a Lisa 2? > If I had an Imsai, then yes, I would. The Lisa is a much more interesting > machine to me... :) Btw: I'm still looking for any genuine Xerox Star. I own two SIEMENS EMS 5800 class systems (5810 and 5822) - OEM Stars, but I like to add a 'real' one to them. And for your question - The Lisa is, compared to the Star like Windows 3.0 compared to a Macintosh. A cheap surogat. The differences arn't that big at first sight, but when working the wohle day just these 4 kesy on the left side are like switching from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Mercedes T. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jun 23 08:02:57 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: available 8" disks Message-ID: <9805238986.AA898632182@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several > hundred floppies. > > Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. Readable? By what machine? Are they single or double sided and what format? (My machines with 8inch: IBM System/23, FTS Series 88 (FTS is CP/M86). I also intend one day to get a PDP running, and connect an RX02 to it.) > Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. > > Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can > be packed in plastic disk boxes. As usual, shipping to the UK is likely to be expensive. I am reluctant to buy secondhand blank disks, although given the quality of most new disks nowadays, secondhand ones are unlikely to be any worse... > If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. I don't think I'll buy disks unless they have something really nice on them, but: If you do get to the point of throwing disks away, please keep the paper envelopes, and I will pay for shipping of these. I am very short (some disks three to an envelope at present) because I also store photographs in them (I get 8 inch square prints back from the developer). Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jun 23 08:25:29 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <9805238986.AA898633622@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to >> be backed up. > > Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem > that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, > althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write > anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). > > So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed > lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some > PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are > 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then try > to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? > This sould be reliable, since it is human readable > (Like old magnetic tapes). Paper tape, of course! There is an action on me from this list last year (I think) to investigate the possibility of Tyvek tapes. I still intend to do it, but I don't know when! Philip. From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 23 09:43:21 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: APPLE //c question Message-ID: <199806231230.OAA19217@marina.fth.sbs.de> Yesterday I opened my Apple //c to take a picture, and I found something strange: On the OS _EP_ROM is a batch to close the window, handmade with the text "NOV 30, 83" written on it. I always thought that the //c was released in april '84 and first in the US - but this is an ordinary (at least I think) german //c. There is no information sticker on the case, so no serial number or exact modell information is available (I forgot to check the revision number on the mainboard). The character generator is also 'only' an EPROM, but the sticker on the window is premade (paper) with a copyright notice (APPLE 83). So, is this maybe some kind of early pre production series for tests in Germany ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 23 07:41:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 Message-ID: <199806231241.AA10241@world.std.com> Back to that SCSI -- the SCSI in the MicroVAX 2000 was for use only <> with the TK50Z-FA tape drive, a 95MB cartridge tape system which looks <> almost exactly like today's fancy DLT tapes (It's DLT's grandfather, <> pretty much). TK50 is an extremely common format for older (early to It certainly seems to have a load of memory chips in it! But I didn't ] [{ | | + | - | * | @ } []] EXAMINE [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:] [{ | | + | - | * | @ }] BOOT [/[R5:]] : TEST [] BOOT command Syntax: BOOT [/[R5:]] : ddau - device in VMS/VMB column listed in 'SHOW DEV' command R5: - ??? bflg - ??? Bootstraps from and submits control to the loaded program retrieved from device 'ddau' DEPOSIT command Syntax: DEPOSIT [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:] [{ | | + | - | * | @ } []] Writes argument(s) to memory /B - byte (8 bit) /W - word (16 bit) /L - long (32 bit) /P - ??? /V - ??? /I - I registers (0x00-0x13) what are they for ??? /G - G registers (0x00-0x0f) what are they for ??? /U - ??? /N: - number of entries (bytes/words/longs) - memory address (hexidecimal) - ??? + - increments pointer by byte/word/long - - decrements pointer by byte/word/long * - ??? @ - ??? - that which is written to memory determined by above args EXAMINE command Syntax: EXAMINE [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:] [{ | | + | - | * | @ }] Examines memory contents /B - byte (8 bit) /W - word (16 bit) /L - long (32 bit) /P - ??? /V - ??? /I - I registers (0x00-0x13) what are they for??? /G - G registers (0x00-0x0f) what are they for??? /U - ??? /N: - number of entries (bytes/words/longs) - memory address (hexidecimal) - ??? + - increment pointer by 1=byte, 2=word, 3=long - - decrement pointer by 1=byte, 2=word, 3=long * - ??? @ - ??? TEST commands Syntax: TEST n - number in decimal 00-99 Function: Performs peripheral tests 00 - system exerciser 50 - Disply config in criptic form (the third column is informative) 51 - set default boot device 52 - set boot flags 53 - set default recover action (boot) 54 - set keyboard language 61 - screen of "E" used for monitor checking (monochrome) 62 - white screen (monochrome monitor) 70 - format drive installed (floppy ot hard) 71 - diskette or HD verifier 81 - screen of "E" for color monitor 82 - white screen for color monitor 87 - 8 color bars for color monitor 88 - 8 gray scale bars for comor or monochrome Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 23 07:41:26 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:45 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 Message-ID: <199806231241.AA10441@world.std.com> ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:24: ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:24:12 +0800 (HKT takes a dry joint on the ground pin of a 7805 ( or worse still, loose <> screws on the TO3 canned version) to wipe out the entire board of IC's < <> If you think I'm paranoid about this, I am. I've had it happen, you see <> and I don't want it to happen again. I've also had those regulators drift with age. Like any IC they can fail of many ways! Allison From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 23 09:26:24 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Convergent Miscellany In-Reply-To: <5126@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806231330.IAA24739@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > Convergent Technologies of San Jose California built a number of Unix > and other platforms, most of which were OEMed by other companies -- > NCR, Burroughs, Sperry, AT&T are the most prevalent. A few years > after Burroughs and Sperry merged into Unisys, they bought Convergent, > so I'm an ex-Unisys person since I got there a year later. Anything > you find running CTOS or CTIX is a Convergent box -- the AT&T Unix PC ^^^^^^^^^^ > ran CTIX, though the name didn't show up on screen. Convergent's ^^^^ OKay, so what happened to the source for CTIX? Did it vanish? Who does it belong to? WHo do you think I belongs to? Just Curious-- Jeff > 68xxx systems included the Miniframe and the Megaframe that later > evolved into the Convergent S-Series and the Unisys 5000 series. > (When I was there I got stuck on the damned U/6000 series, with > bloody Intel CPUs and ISA buses). > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > > > From cfandt at servtech.com Tue Jun 23 09:31:45 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: References: <199806221100.NAA00024@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: <199806231432.OAA22931@cyber2.servtech.com> At 19:13 22-06-98 +0100, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >[Science museum] >> > Alas they've added some of those 'interactive' experiments. While a good >> > idea in theory, I'm not sure they should be combined with collections of >> > historical scientific instruments, etc. The groups of people interested >> > in the two displays would have virtually no intersection IMHO. >> >> Hmm. The Deutsches Museum is a 'hands-on'/'interactive') museum >> since the first years, and the combination of historic displays >> and learning works fine - at least for me. > >I've got no problem with working exhibits, and hands-on learning. But the >science museum already has far more stuff than it can display, so when >a lot of the space has recently been taken over with these interactive >experiments that have little to do with the historical stuff, it's a >pity. > Some of us, I'm quite sure, feel the same way Tony. This is a minor gripe of mine too. But take a close look at the people visiting a science museum any day (or actually, _any_ museum). Majority will not be anywhere near as technically informed as we are. Some of those folks are turned off. On the other hand, you'll *sometimes* see intense interest in a display or theme area as those folks may have had a long time interest in discovering more about that theme or are just curious to learn about anything. This is something we feel we will need to address in the AWA Electronic Communications Museum when we eventually undertake a relocation/reconstruction of our collection. I am on the Board of Trustees of the museum. I see the same interest/disinterest when I closely watch visitors to our museum. However, the majority of our visitors are usually more technically oriented and go out of their way to visit the museum. It is not a broad-range scientific museum like Deutches Museum, British Science Museum and the Smithsonian. We are essentially focused on early land-line telegraph and wireless communications from the first days in the 1840's up to, so far to now, the 1970's. Same thing could possibly be said for the Boston Computer Museum for example since they are like AWA Museum and not broad-ranged. I would guess that the more technically interested folks (like us) would head for that place rather than the non-technical tourists. Interactive experiments and hands-on displays serve to draw the interest of those disinterested visitors to a technical museum. That helps to get more and more people to visit because the relatively disinterested visitors do not talk to potential visitors in such negative terms. With that, the interest of those potential visitors is possibly increased to eventually bring them in. This helps the museum get more funding from admission fees which helps the museum continue to be open and maintain their displays. The interactive or hands-on displays can therefore be considered as part of the 'marketing' of the museum. You gotta sell it to 'em to make 'em come. Furthermore, a mission of nearly all museums, especially those that have public money for support, is to educate. Those hands-on/interactive experiments serve to satisfy the government agency responsible for ensuring that public money given to those museums 'Is for The Public Benefit'. When Sam Ismail opens his public museum and gets state or federal funding to help, he will likely have to provide some educational features in the museum that will take away from the space he'd want to use to show historical stuff. Hands-on/interactive experiments are a somewhat easy/low-maintenance/simple-to-design-and-make/stand-alone/unstaffed way to fulfill that requirement. Have any of you folks noticed that when you show your personal 'museum' to folks who normally are not into computers and that you demonstrate one or more simple aspects of computing on a working machine or just talk in simple terms about the history of same, those people show that they come away with just a bit more knowledge of those strange electronic boxes that have been a mystery to them. You have passed on a bit of knowledge to those visitors and you have fulfilled the general mission of nearly all museums around: to educate. >While I am sure that such things are educationally very valuable, if I >want to see which materials conduct electricity, I'll do it at home :-). >I want to see things that, in general, I don't have at home, and am not >likely to have at home. Alas, many people have neither the means, knowledge, etc. to do that. Museums therefore serve that purpose. Question: Do many of you actively encourage folks (at least those you know or trust!) to visit you and your private collection who are not collectors/historians like us? If so, do you have fun teaching them a little about old computing (or old radios, automobiles, clocks or whatever your interest in addition to computers)? --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 23 10:41:04 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: <5016@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806231445.JAA25088@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Okay, since I was the person who started this firestorm of controversy, this is the last I will say about this issue. Let me begin by saying that I did not purchase this IMSAI when I had the opportunity for three reasons: 1. I didn't have $300 2. The machine, though historic, did nothing for me (I'll Explain) 3. I don't (in general) collect Intel. Not being into S-100 (I'm an SS-50 person, myself), the machine had little appeal to me. But I knew that there would be at least a few of you out there on this list who would be interested. So I posted it here, so some of our 'gang' could take a swing at it. The asking price _seemed_ fair, although I personally felt it was a tad high (more than _I_ would pay, anyway). What I figured would happen, some one would call, offer the guy $300, and that would be it. I had _no_ idea that this guy was gonna jack up the price into the stratusphere ($1,000 ? c'mon guys! Where's the enjoyment factor here?) Anyways, this chain of events was definitely _not_ my intention. Of course, the adage: "The road to Hell is paved grandest of good intentions" certainly applies here. I offer my most sincerest apologies for this debacle. Yes, I know, the deed is done, and it looks like a few of you out there have been hurt by this. I'm sorry. Had I known this was gonna happen, I'd a sent the guy to ebay. Further, I don't think I will be offering any more material that may be considered 'Investment Grade' (should I encounter any) in the future, and I would encourage others to do likewise. Private mail is better. If anyone has any gripes/comments, please address them directly to me: jeff.kaneko@ifrsys.com And let's give the mailing list back to our hobby, where it belongs. Thank you for your attention . . .. Jeff Kaneko +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > At 02:51 AM 6/20/98 -0500, you wrote: > >> For Sale: > >> > >> IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer > >[...] > >> Asking price: $300 > > > >After a round of email bidding, the seller sez: > >> IT SOLD FOR $1000. THAMKS FOR THE RESPONSE. > > > >Somebody recently suggested that it would be better to offer stuff > >directly to readers of this list rather than advertising them via online > >auction. The last IMSAI that sold on eBay went for around $650, I think. > > > >FWIW, > >Doug (still IMSAI-less) > > Well... while it may not improve the price, it may improve the audience... > B^} > > While trying to NOT reignite another flame war (which I probably contribute > to), the qualifier on this idea might be that when you post something, post > it with an acceptable price. IMHO that should not be a difficult > proposition for someone who is looking for a good home for a piece of > equipment. If you are just going to relocate an auction, then you are > probably only in it for the money! (boy, am I gonna get yelled at for THAT > one) > > What really scrapes my oxide is an approach that I am starting to see more > often in postings in and newsgroups. (it has happened to me twice now in > the last month) > > Someone posts an item with an asking price. I respond to the message with > a counter offer. The seller responds with a counter-counter offer that I > find acceptable. I respond to the message with my acceptance and provide > shipping details. The seller then responded back indicating that he has > received a higher offer and that the unit has been sold without so much as > an opportunity for further response. > > Now, maybe it is just me... But from my view when responded with a counter > to my offer, we were in the midst of transacting a deal and I should have > 'right of first refusal' until the point that either we make the deal or I > decide I don't want it. > > I don't appreciate multi-thread dealing going on without being informed. > And it was not like there were any extended delays between these messages. > The entire series of exchanges occurred over less than 24 hours. Very > similar for the second occurrance I mentioned above... > > BTW: a HERO-2000 auction just closed on eBay for $4027.78... (sheesh!) > > -jim (the obviously overly idealistic one...) > > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jun 23 10:11:40 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: APPLE //c question In-Reply-To: <199806231230.OAA19217@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > Yesterday I opened my Apple //c to take a picture, and I > found something strange: On the OS _EP_ROM is a batch > to close the window, handmade with the text "NOV 30, 83" > written on it. I always thought that the //c was released > in april '84 and first in the US - but this is an ordinary > (at least I think) german //c. There is no information > sticker on the case, so no serial number or exact modell > information is available (I forgot to check the revision > number on the mainboard). The character generator is also > 'only' an EPROM, but the sticker on the window is premade > (paper) with a copyright notice (APPLE 83). Is the texture of the case smooth or rough? Does it have the Apple logo and the //c name imprinted on the top of the case towards the back end? If you still have it open, look under the power supply (it takes some force to pull the P/S out of its socket). What does it say underneath? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 23 12:31:05 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: APPLE //c question Message-ID: <199806231518.RAA04494@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> Yesterday I opened my Apple //c to take a picture, and I >> found something strange: On the OS _EP_ROM is a batch >> to close the window, handmade with the text "NOV 30, 83" >> written on it. I always thought that the //c was released >> in april '84 and first in the US - but this is an ordinary >> (at least I think) german //c. There is no information >> sticker on the case, so no serial number or exact modell >> information is available (I forgot to check the revision >> number on the mainboard). The character generator is also >> 'only' an EPROM, but the sticker on the window is premade >> (paper) with a copyright notice (APPLE 83). > Is the texture of the case smooth or rough? Does it have the Apple logo > and the //c name imprinted on the top of the case towards the back end? > If you still have it open, look under the power supply (it takes some > force to pull the P/S out of its socket). What does it say underneath? Camera and Pictures are at home. I'll have a look (yes its still open, since I use this to giv him a complete cleaning). More information tomorrow. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jun 23 10:26:25 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <199806231432.OAA22931@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > >I've got no problem with working exhibits, and hands-on learning. But the > >science museum already has far more stuff than it can display, so when > >a lot of the space has recently been taken over with these interactive > >experiments that have little to do with the historical stuff, it's a > >pity. > > Some of us, I'm quite sure, feel the same way Tony. This is a minor gripe > of mine too. But take a close look at the people visiting a science museum > any day (or actually, _any_ museum). Majority will not be anywhere near as > technically informed as we are. Some of those folks are turned off. On the I don't think museums should necessarily cater to the lowest common denominator. I realize they derive much needed revenue from public visitors and don't want to turn the dummies off, but they shouldn't insult the rest of us. > Furthermore, a mission of nearly all museums, especially those that have > public money for support, is to educate. Those hands-on/interactive > experiments serve to satisfy the government agency responsible for ensuring > that public money given to those museums 'Is for The Public Benefit'. Again, this can and should be done in a way which doesn't insult the intelligence of those who come to appreciate the artifacts. > When Sam Ismail opens his public museum and gets state or federal funding > to help, he will likely have to provide some educational features in the > museum that will take away from the space he'd want to use to show > historical stuff. Hands-on/interactive experiments are a somewhat > easy/low-maintenance/simple-to-design-and-make/stand-alone/unstaffed way to > fulfill that requirement. Unless you consider it a labor of love and pump your own money into it :) > Question: Do many of you actively encourage folks (at least those you know > or trust!) to visit you and your private collection who are not > collectors/historians like us? If so, do you have fun teaching them a > little about old computing (or old radios, automobiles, clocks or whatever > your interest in addition to computers)? When unfortunate neighbors who walk by my garage make the mistake of actually showing interest in all these old machines I have stacked up in there, they get caught in my nerd spider web and I end up talking their ear off for as many hours as it takes for them to finally overcome their politeness and yell "Enough already! You sick bastard!" Actually, the two neighbors I have met this way were both techno-dorks like me and enjoyed all the old memories (one is a guy who moved here from Scotland, his first computer being the Sinclair ZX-80). I wish more people would show an interest since I love to talk about the stuff. Maybe I should put up a sign when I'm working in the garage that says "Don't be afraid to ask what all this junk is." :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jun 23 10:48:07 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: <199806231445.JAA25088@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> References: <5016@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980623104807.00fe2ad0@pc> At 09:41 AM 6/23/98 -0600, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > >So I posted it here, so some of our 'gang' could take a swing >at it. The asking price _seemed_ fair, although I personally >felt it was a tad high (more than _I_ would pay, anyway). > >What I figured would happen, some one would call, offer the guy >$300, and that would be it. I had _no_ idea that this guy >was gonna jack up the price into the stratusphere ($1,000 ? >c'mon guys! Where's the enjoyment factor here?) I don't think you need to apologize. You did the list a service by announcing the availability of this machine. What I don't understand is the need for the disparagement of the character and intelligence of the person who (supposedly, who really knows what happens off-line) paid $1,000 for it. Just because someone had the money and the desire, someone else is willing to claim they don't know value, won't know how to take care of it, and couldn't possible enjoy it after paying that much? Sounds like sour grapes. Keep hunting for the dumpster'd IMSAI covered in coffee grounds, and you'll be truly happy someday, I guess. :-) On the other hand, the seller would be stupid to accept the first $300 if he gets a dozen offers of $300. I'll join the complaints about sellers who don't know how to conduct a decent online bidding war. Far too often my persistent e-mails will be ignored, only to be summarily dismissed when the item has been sold. Geez, at least give me a chance to outbid! - John From wanderer at bos.nl Tue Jun 23 13:03:03 1998 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: BULL - XPS 120 - HELP! Message-ID: <358FEDD7.212D@bos.nl> Hi, The XPS100 and XPS120 are made by Bull S.A. (French computer maker, the Unix systems where actually made in Pregnana, Italy), the XPS100 used to be a single processor machine with an 68010 (or 68020) and the XPS120 used to be a dual cpu machine (that is, as far as I can remember it) When I worked with them they had Unix System 5 rel. 0, but maybe also release 1 or 2 has been made available at a later stage. Basically after you have connected all the disks and so on it should work, the console should generate some diagnostic messages and other stuff, and you should then get the login prompt. Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From higginbo at netpath.net Tue Jun 23 11:19:05 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980623104807.00fe2ad0@pc> References: <199806231445.JAA25088@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> <5016@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980623121905.00808cf0@netpath.net> One way to look at it: (If you don't mind analogies) You have a cherry 1964 Corvette Stingray. Now you have two parties interested in the car: A collector, who can't really afford to pay much for it, but who would take care of the car and try to keep it in perfect condition as long as he had it, and the other guy: Some snot-nosed teenager (no offense to the teens out there!) who has a rich daddy, money to burn, and is addicted to speed. This guy will go through 5 sets of tires in the first month, leave the car out in the rain, get dents and dings all over it, and generally drive it like a maniac. But this second guy is offering 10 times what the poor collector is offering. What do you do? What DO you do? Sell the car, go out and find 4 or 5 stingrays in shoddy condition, and start fixing them up, maybe give the poor collector a deal on one, keep one for yourself, and keep an eye out for more rich kids to sell the other two cars to. Everyone's happy. :) At 10:48 AM 6/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >What I don't understand is the need for the disparagement of >the character and intelligence of the person who (supposedly, >who really knows what happens off-line) paid $1,000 for it. > >Just because someone had the money and the desire, someone else is >willing to claim they don't know value, won't know how to >take care of it, and couldn't possible enjoy it after paying >that much? Sounds like sour grapes. Keep hunting for the >dumpster'd IMSAI covered in coffee grounds, and you'll be >truly happy someday, I guess. :-) ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From red at bears.org Tue Jun 23 11:24:33 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Convergent Miscellany In-Reply-To: <199806231330.IAA24739@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > OKay, so what happened to the source for CTIX? Did it vanish? Who > does it belong to? WHo do you think I belongs to? I think it belongs to Unisys. They own the trademark, anyway (through their acquisition of Convergent). ok r. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 23 11:50:55 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980623121905.00808cf0@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > One way to look at it: > (If you don't mind analogies) > > You have a cherry 1964 Corvette Stingray. Now you have two parties > interested in the car: A collector, who can't really afford to pay much for > it, but who would take care of the car and try to keep it in perfect > condition as long as he had it, and the other guy: Some snot-nosed teenager > (no offense to the teens out there!) who has a rich daddy, money to burn, > and is addicted to speed. This guy will go through 5 sets of tires in the > first month, leave the car out in the rain, get dents and dings all over > it, and generally drive it like a maniac. But this second guy is offering > 10 times what the poor collector is offering. What do you do? What DO you > do? Sell the car, go out and find 4 or 5 stingrays in shoddy condition, and > start fixing them up, maybe give the poor collector a deal on one, keep one > for yourself, and keep an eye out for more rich kids to sell the other two > cars to. Everyone's happy. :) Perhaps... It would appear though that the subject of this writing thinks of this car as nothing more than a machine. No history, no meaning... Just so much metal, fibreglass, and parts... ...and there are 'always' more out there... Whats one car more or less in the remaining mix? Did you make enough money on the deal to cover your time/effort in finding these "4 or 5" others, fixing them up, and doing a favour for this other collector? Just how long DID it take to find them? (and how much did they cost?) And what if perhaps there are NOT 4 or five more out there? (remember, we are expanding the analogy beyond cars) No flamage... just that the analogy does not work for everyone... (new example coming to my web pages soon...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jun 23 12:02:53 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980623121905.00808cf0@netpath.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980623104807.00fe2ad0@pc> <199806231445.JAA25088@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980623120253.00c71c90@pc> At 12:19 PM 6/23/98 -0400, John Higginbotham wrote: >One way to look at it: (If you don't mind analogies) >You have a cherry 1964 Corvette Stingray. My point exactly. Based on the descriptions here, you have no idea if the $1,000 IMSAI buyer is the poor, honest, respectful collector, or the snot-nosed rich kid. You have no idea how the new owner will treat the gizmo. If you feel personal attributes should sway the sale, then you'll need to interview the seller to determine their worthiness, too. As I see it, price is always determined between buyer and seller - period. - John From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Jun 23 08:06:08 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Old Mac OS.... Help PLS! In-Reply-To: <199806230924.RAA13601@imsp073.netvigator.com> Message-ID: <199806231707.NAA19263@smtp.interlog.com> > Hi Lawrence: > > Thanks for your info, I will search it up from WWW.... :) > BTW, may I use any Mac emulator, and get the HD-COPY from Apple site and > run it to extract the Mac disc image from an IBM directly? > > Yours, > Ken Yaksa > I'm not sure I understand your question. IIRC HD_Copy is for Apple IIs. I'm not really a Mac man. I only have a Plus. But here are some URLs where you can find answers. Check out the classic mac archives at http://www.zws.com/classicmacs/ ftp://ftp.zws.com/classicmacs/ or for emulation ftp://oak.oakland.edu/pub/msdos/emulator/ Get the FAQs http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet-faqs/bygroup/comp/sys/mac/ or info-mac ftp://sunsite.anu.edu.au/pub/mac/info-mac/ ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From peacock at simconv.com Tue Jun 23 12:24:25 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E947@NT486> > If they are labeled "CompacTape", yes. I'm not sure if the CompacTape II's will work in a TK-50 drive, but I've been told they will. A TK50 (CompacTape I, 95MB) can be read in any TK drive up to a TK86 (CompacTape III, 6GB). A TK70 (CompacTape II, 295MB) is also upward but not downward compatible. However, if you fully erase a TK70 with a degausser it will work in a TK50 drive, but from then on it looks like a TK50 tape in a TK70 drive too. Re uVAX 2000 tape drives, a TK50-F is the original drive but the SCSI controller in the tape needs an upgrade if you use it with any other SCSI controller, like a MicroVax 3100. The TK50-G model had the updated ROMs, so given a choice look for the G model instead. Jack Peacock From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jun 23 13:50:35 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980623120253.00c71c90@pc> Message-ID: > As I see it, price is always determined between buyer and > seller - period. Right. So far this thread has managed to insult the seller as unprincipled (unless this thread is really about high school principals, as the title suggests), and the buyer as a somebody with more money than knowledge. Keep in mind that the seller was not a collector, and that $1000 is a lot less than most people spend on a PC that becomes worthless to them after about 6 months. The new market efficiencies that the internet brings to the collecting game only make that local hunt and kill that much more satisfying. And what about buyer principles? Next time your neighbor offers to give you a free IMSAI, do you accept, or do you let them know that they could get $1000 by offerring it on the net? -- Doug From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 23 14:56:46 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806231316.AA05972@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Disks on good equipment are as reliable as Magtape. Better, I think, as with disks you need not be concerned with layer to layer adhesion or layer to layer transfer. - don **** snip **** From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jun 23 14:58:44 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > The new market efficiencies that the internet brings to the collecting > game only make that local hunt and kill that much more satisfying. And > what about buyer principles? Next time your neighbor offers to give you a > free IMSAI, do you accept, or do you let them know that they could get > $1000 by offerring it on the net? HAHA! Exactly. I went over this dilemma in my mind as well. Sometimes I get outrageous deals (compared to the online auctions of course) and feel just the slightest bit guilty that I know where these guys could have made ten times more. But the deal is, it's up to them to find the buyer, not me. We negotiate and agree upon a price, and both parties walk away happy. I pay what I feel is a fair price, regardless of what the prevailing online prices may be. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 23 15:41:47 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Old adage: (slightly updated) "An item is only worth as much or as little as someone is willing to pay for it" Corollary: (much newer) "An item has no value unless the owner decides to sell it..." --- (and now, on with the flame-resistant suit...) In answer to a question posed in an earlier entry in this thread: (paraphrased somewhat) "if someone offers you a free IMSAI, do you tell them that they could sell it for a lot more on the net/web?" In general, no. Now, before the flames start; allow me to finish... If someone offers an item to me (usually knowing what I do with them either from experience or reference) for a price (even if that happens to be 'free') that they are comfortable with, then so be it. Now, as a counter to that if someone (even that same person) asks me what an item is 'worth', I will also answer that to the best of my current knowledge. I usually end up qualifying that with what the given item is worth 'to me', and what it might be worth 'on the open market', which is usually the most recent sale I've seen on the net/web or online auctions. And does this mean that on occasion I've lost a shot at an item at a better price because someone has changed their mind once they know that there are other options? Yes. Does that upset me? Depends... If the negociation/discussion has proceeded politely, then no. Until the deal is finished the item still belongs to them. If they change their mind, thats their perogative. You might be surprised how many times that I have had this entire discussion, and the people have just gone "oh, well I would not have thought it might be worth $X", and let me have it anyway. If however the potential 'seller' gets self-righteous on me suddenly, (if suddenly it becomes "so you are trying to rip me off?!?") then yes, I'll get upset (and it will be a colder day in Hell, Norway before I'll deal with them again). If they expect me to do their homework/market research for them, they had better lead the discussion with some $eriou$ money in my direction! I am primarily a collector. (preservationist if you will) I would just as rather trade/swap/barter items back and forth than sell them. (much less hassle in the long run) This also means that since I don't operate in the same mentality as a 'business' would, I don't approach every deal/offer with the pre-concieved qualifier that I have to leave myself room for a 40% profit margin on every item, (or for the 'speculator', 200% to 400%) and spend a lot of time beating people up over price. I'll decide what something is worth 'to me', and work from there... I won't necessarily volunteer extra information in the midst of a deal, but I won't avoid a direct question either... (gads, these suits get hot after a few minutes...) B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 23 15:53:45 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <19980623205346.104.qmail@hotmail.com> >So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed I suggest real CD-ROMs >lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some >PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are >900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical >medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then >try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? >This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like >old magnetic tapes). I think paper is the best option. It shouldn't be a big deal to print a hex dump for a 20-K program with a line printer. >Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling >EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS >(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even >longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? That should keep IR out... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From poesie at geocities.com Tue Jun 23 16:13:51 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: WTB/T: Conner hard drives References: <3.0.3.32.19980622084720.00825bc0@netpath.net> Message-ID: <35901A8F.1BAA@geocities.com> I have a connor CP-3104 IDE drive, little over 100mb formatted. pulled from a 386. maybe this is what you are looking for? i'm more than willing to part with it. reply if interested. John Higginbotham wrote: > > I am need of either of these hard drives: > > Conner CP-3044 3.5" 40mb (42mb actual?) IDE hard drive > Conner CP-3??? (CP-3244?) 3.5" 100mb (110mb actual?) IDE hard drive > > I have this GRiDCASE 1535 laptop (circa 1989) that has a fixed drive table > in the BIOS. No way to use any other drive besides the two above, and a > Conner 20mb, which I can't really use because of space factor. > > Anyone? Anyone? > > ________________________________________ > john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - > webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - > "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - > enemy other people to shoot at." - From poesie at geocities.com Tue Jun 23 16:16:47 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) Message-ID: <35901B3F.7D81@geocities.com> Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis, racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody. -Eric From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 23 17:14:47 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: <5180@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806232118.QAA26744@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > >So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed > I suggest real CD-ROMs The 'real' ones can be expensive to master . . . > >lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some > >PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are > >900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > >medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then > >try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? > >This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like > >old magnetic tapes). > > I think paper is the best option. It shouldn't be a big deal to print a > hex dump for a 20-K program with a line printer. Just make sure it's Teflon, or Tyvek based paper (if such things exist), using some very high-tech ink/toner most modern papers (that I know of) have a finite shelf-life. Now papryrus-- that's rugged! S.L. = Several millenia > >Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ > >EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS > >(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even > >longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - > > What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? ^^^^^^^^^ Eeeek! Is this guy crazy? It would have to be stuck in carbon-loaded foam, and kept in a Faraday-cage container (metallized stat bags, or similar). > That should keep IR out... IR would be the LEAST or your worries. Now if you're a follower of Erich von Dainken, :-) you could inscribe your source in Gold leaves, as certain pre-pre-columbian 'civilizations' supposedly have done. Your assembly code will then be forever immortalized for future generations to puzzle over. Who knows? It may even become an object of worship . . . . Jeff +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From peacock at simconv.com Tue Jun 23 16:27:34 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E94B@NT486> What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? That should keep IR out... And wrap them in aluminum foil to keep out the beta radiation, or even better lead bricks, keeps out cosmic rays and background radiation, oh, and move to some place with low radioactivity in the soil (hmmm, lets me out, Nevada is one of the most heavily nuked areas in the world), and store them at some location with a low altitude too, say the Dead Sea or Death Valley. I almost forgot, are the ROMs ceramic? Bad news, transfer them to plastic OTPs, ceramics generally have materials that source beta radiation. Those pretty white and gold cases could be destroying bits even now. Seriously, I preserve ROMs in the S-100 boards by disassembling them and saving the source code. I have about 30 backup tape generations on 4mm (I do one at the end of each month, well, 2 now, bigger disks), plus older backups on DC600 cartridges, and an offsite backup too, so I don't worry too much about losing them. And an extra advantage in having the source code is you can actually figure out how the hardware works, not have to depend on the skimpy manuals. The only drawback is that it is time consuming. Jack Peacock From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 23 16:16:45 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <19980623211646.23331.qmail@hotmail.com> How about a system like in recent software: 'levels'. That is, the exhibits are arranged in such a way that someone doesn't HAVE to pay attention to any details, but they are there. I can't tell you how annoying it is to walk through a museum and not have any idea what the exhibits are talking about. >I don't think museums should necessarily cater to the lowest common >denominator. I realize they derive much needed revenue from public >visitors and don't want to turn the dummies off, but they shouldn't >insult the rest of us. >> Question: Do many of you actively encourage folks (at least those >>you know or trust!) to visit you and your private collection who are >>not collectors/historians like us? If so, do you have fun teaching >>them a little about old computing (or old radios, automobiles, >>clocks or whatever your interest in addition to computers)? I don't think the average person is interested in computer history. Computers are not visibly works of art, like old radios. Most people have no nostalgic memories of them except logging in to the mainframe to update some numbers at work, or the 'do not bend...' cards. When an average person sees an old computer, they don't say, 'remember when...' or 'whoa, look at that disk architecture', they say,'are you crazy? What are you bothering with this piece of **** for?'. And most modern comuterheads are Wintel drones who don't see the meaning of a computer without Windows (ironically, Mac users are much more aware of their hardware). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 23 16:25:19 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) Message-ID: <19980623212520.26989.qmail@hotmail.com> Agreed. And yes, Sam, I would talk to a buyer and ask why he wants something. I don't pay rent or insurance, so I don't know, but I would be very uncomfortable knowing I'm a thousand dollars richer and an IMSAI's blood on my hands. A few days ago, I had the opportunity to give a family living in Russia a PS/2 Model 70. Why didn't I give it to them? Because they would be hard pressed to find someone over there who is familiar with PS/2s. How would they use the english refdisk (Russian windows is no problem)? What if they want to add a sound card? This thing uses MCA, not ISA. >No flamage... just that the analogy does not work for everyone... > >(new example coming to my web pages >soon...) > >-jim >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From g at kurico.com Tue Jun 23 16:28:09 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) In-Reply-To: <35901B3F.7D81@geocities.com> Message-ID: > Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage > place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet wide, > about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the right hand > side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it was filled > in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or if it is > just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store is > www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis, > racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything > interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody. Nope, just a plain ole MacII. You might be thinking of the MacXL which was the re-badged Lisa with the extension that allowed it to run Mac apps. I guess having the original shipping box (esp if it has all the docs, software, etc) would be nice, but beyond that, not worth much, if anything. George From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 23 16:34:30 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) Message-ID: <19980623213431.21531.qmail@hotmail.com> A Mac II is a 68020 or higher machine, the descendant of regular macs. Video was on an expansion card. 5 NuBus slots, I think. Room for two hard drives and two floppy drives (If you could ship me the ROM and RAM for it, please email me at maxeskin@hotmail.com). Other models in this series were: Mac IIci - Narrower case with one space for HDD, one for FDD, three slots, video on the board Mac IIsi - Same, but a more modern case There were also other immaterial variants. >Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage >place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet >wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the >right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it >was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or >if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store >is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis, >racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything >interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody. > >-Eric > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 23 16:36:36 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080) Message-ID: <19980623213637.5036.qmail@hotmail.com> Sorry, I guess it would degrade, wouldn't it... Why DO EPROMs go bad? >Eeeek! Is this guy crazy? It would have to be stuck in >carbon-loaded foam, and kept in a Faraday-cage container (metallized >stat bags, or similar). > >> That should keep IR out... > >IR would be the LEAST or your worries. Now if you're a follower of >Erich von Dainken, :-) you could inscribe your source in Gold >leaves, as certain pre-pre-columbian 'civilizations' supposedly >have done. Your assembly code will then be forever immortalized for >future generations to puzzle over. > >Who knows? It may even become an object of worship . . . . > > >Jeff > >+------------------------------------------------------------------+ >|Disclaimer: | >| | >| These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | >| policies or opinions of my employer. | >| | >+------------------------------------------------------------------+ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jun 23 16:40:01 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, James Willing wrote: > Old adage: (slightly updated) > > "An item is only worth as much or as little as someone is willing to > pay for it" > > Corollary: (much newer) > > "An item has no value unless the owner decides to sell it..." This should really be: "An item has no value unless there is a BUYER for it." > If however the potential 'seller' gets self-righteous on me suddenly, (if > suddenly it becomes "so you are trying to rip me off?!?") > then yes, I'll get upset (and it will be a colder day in Hell, Norway > before I'll deal with them again). If they expect me to do their > homework/market research for them, they had better lead the discussion > with some $eriou$ money in my direction! Exactly. There is value in knowing where to sell something to get the maximum dollar amount for it. We all happen to have that knowledge. Cut out all the emotion and its called buy low/sell high; free-market economy. You don't get pissed off at your grocer or the place you buy your clothes from for buying their goods at a price much lower than what you pay. The thing is this (IMO): I think its normal to feel maybe slightly guilty about buying something (say a nice IMSAI) from someone for far less than what they could get somewhere else that you know of. Basically, I think most if not all of us are basically nice people and don't want to feel like we are ripping anyone off or taking advantage of them. And we can't help those feelings. Heck, I'll freely admit that I sometimes feel guilty about it. But we invest time and money and passion into this hobby, and I don't think its wrong to take advantage of a good deal when one comes your way. > I am primarily a collector. (preservationist if you will) I would just as > rather trade/swap/barter items back and forth than sell them. (much less > hassle in the long run) Well, I consider myself an archivist/preservationist, which by definition means I "collect". If I'm to preserve as many computers for future generations as possible then I've got to be frugal with my purchases. > This also means that since I don't operate in the same mentality as a > 'business' would, I don't approach every deal/offer with the pre-concieved > qualifier that I have to leave myself room for a 40% profit margin on > every item, (or for the 'speculator', 200% to 400%) and spend a lot of > time beating people up over price. I'll decide what something is worth 'to > me', and work from there... Preach on, Brother James! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 16:32:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980623104807.00fe2ad0@pc> from "John Foust" at Jun 23, 98 10:48:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 449 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/03abff89/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 16:04:04 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <199806231432.OAA22931@cyber2.servtech.com> from "Christian Fandt" at Jun 23, 98 10:31:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4913 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/7418dc34/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 16:36:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980623121905.00808cf0@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jun 23, 98 12:19:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1404 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/237434fb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 16:49:35 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 98 08:26:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2694 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/03ba57db/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 13:15:19 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <199806231024.MAA08597@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 23, 98 12:38:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2934 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/975c58fa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 13:23:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806231133.NAA14307@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 23, 98 01:46:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1744 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/eefdf33a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 13:35:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806231140.NAA15019@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 23, 98 01:54:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1125 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/e3801b4b/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jun 23 17:16:39 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980623104807.00fe2ad0@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980623171639.00cd78c0@pc> At 10:32 PM 6/23/98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> On the other hand, the seller would be stupid to accept the >> first $300 if he gets a dozen offers of $300. I'll join the > >No, he wouldn't be stupid, he'd be honest. I'm sorry, but if I offer >something for sale and quote a price, then the first person to offer that >price gets it, no matter how many other offers I get, and no matter how >much those other offers are. I've decided what I think it's worth, and >that's the end of it. Well, I agree in principle, but it depends on the details. I think the reality is that if someone thought (or was told) that their IMSAI was only worth $300 but after they advertise it on the net and three dozen screaming collectors beg to pay more, I don't blame them for trying to raise the price. They simply could've been misinformed. After all, it's not sold until it's sold. Why can't they rescind their offer if they think they advertised a poor price? - John From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Jun 23 17:30:32 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Auradon?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) Message-ID: <001c01bd9ef6$89a112a0$1f6e0181@fauradon> Nah! I went there this week-end no Lisa there and their prices are a little too high. Did you see the HP75's? Badly abused leaked batteries no PS $10 way too much plus nobody seemed to care I asked around if anyone knew wether they had the Ps's and the answers I got is if it's not near the machine it might be somewhere else. How about the badly dent Kaypro4 for $29? compac II (or III?) for $49. I used to like that place but now they are inflating their prices and won't even allow you to bargain. Francois -----Original Message----- From: Poesie To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 4:12 PM Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) >Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage >place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet >wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the >right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it >was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or >if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store >is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis, >racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything >interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody. > >-Eric > From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Jun 23 17:32:35 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Auradon?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) Message-ID: <002d01bd9ef6$d251edd0$1f6e0181@fauradon> >Old adage: (slightly updated) > > "An item is only worth as much or as little as someone is willing to >pay for it" > >Corollary: (much newer) > > "An item has no value unless the owner decides to sell it..." > Wow that makes my collection priceless... From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 23 18:01:26 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <19980623230130.29255.qmail@hotmail.com> Incidentally, I spent a lot of time today in the Boston Science Museum. They have some old models, even a functional steam engine, but also a lot of hands on junk. Although kids do enjoy touching things and often regard untouchable museums as boring, there is the issue of the usefullness of the things, and even the issue of what knowledge we are propagating to the children. Many of the exhibits were broken. The robots exhibit had an arm shooting hoops. The worst it got was with the model of the NASA Dante II robot. It was hands-on, all right: press the up button to move a leg up, and the down button to move it down. Just one leg. BTW, they had an early Amiga in one kiosk. At any rate, I was kinda bored with so much floor space taken up by junk. In the Computer Museum, there was a very interesting application of hands-on. They had a part of a Whirlwind, with both the wire and tube sides of a panel exposed (behind glass, of course). The tubes were on, and you could actually feel how warm they got. Then there was an English->Punched card translator...Now those are good. >What I am moaning about is the 'hands-on' experiments using equipment >that would be found in most homes (or could, at least be bought >cheaply). It doesn't cost much to buy a battery and a bulb and test >objects to see if they conduct. It doesn't cost much to buy a bucket, >fill it with water and see what floats. Those are things that can >easily be done at home. Let's have things that can't be done at home >easily (demonstration engines, clock escapements, etc). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jun 23 18:18:05 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Xerox Daybreak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Btw: I'm still looking for any genuine Xerox Star. I own two > > So am I, actually. The only 2 Xerox machines I have are a Model 3000 word > processor (seems to be an 8085-based machine) and a Daybreak. I know very > little about the latter (one day I'll figure it out), but it was cheap > enought to be worth grabbing. I went to the "last" Star demo, and somebody (Sam?) asked whether Daybreak was the code name for a Star prototype, but I didn't hear the answer. Describe the Daybreak, and somebody who attended the demo can probably tell you if it's a Star. IIRC, the Star had both a custom microcoded CPU and had an 8080 (or 8085) to handle I/O. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jun 23 18:43:37 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Btw: I'm still looking for any genuine Xerox Star. I own two > > So am I, actually. The only 2 Xerox machines I have are a Model 3000 word > processor (seems to be an 8085-based machine) and a Daybreak. I know very > little about the latter (one day I'll figure it out), but it was cheap > enought to be worth grabbing. Actually, Tony, we in the Silicon Valley area were recently treated to a live demo of the Star at Xerox PARC, and one of the things we learned was that the "Daybreak" (we're talking about the brown tower case about 2' high x 16" deep by 16" wide, right?) is a later model of the Star (Model 8035 I believe?) So I hope I'm remembering all this correctly, and I hope someone will jump in here if I'm wrong, but you may actually have a Star in your midst. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jun 23 18:56:17 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Xerox Daybreak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > So am I, actually. The only 2 Xerox machines I have are a Model 3000 word > > processor (seems to be an 8085-based machine) and a Daybreak. I know very > > little about the latter (one day I'll figure it out), but it was cheap > > enought to be worth grabbing. > > I went to the "last" Star demo, and somebody (Sam?) asked whether Daybreak > was the code name for a Star prototype, but I didn't hear the answer. > Describe the Daybreak, and somebody who attended the demo can probably > tell you if it's a Star. As I recall, "Daybreak" was an unoffical name for the later model of the Star (8035?) because of the software package it ran, or something like that. Damn, I wasn't paying the best attention. I was blabbing to Paul Coad who was sitting next to me and probably preventing him from hearing any useful information either (sorry, Paul :) > IIRC, the Star had both a custom microcoded CPU and had an 8080 (or 8085) > to handle I/O. I believe 8080 is correct (remember, the design was started in the 1975 timeframe, but did extend into 1981 when it was released). The 8085 is circa 1976. Why didn't I take better notes!? ;) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 17:32:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <19980623205346.104.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 23, 98 01:53:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1171 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/0bd26e03/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 17:36:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) In-Reply-To: <19980623212520.26989.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 23, 98 02:25:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 418 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/b5770f74/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 17:40:35 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <19980623211646.23331.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 23, 98 02:16:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 779 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/3583481e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 17:27:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:46 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Jun 23, 98 01:41:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2290 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/51ea7a41/attachment.ksh From poesie at geocities.com Tue Jun 23 20:43:58 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) References: Message-ID: <359059DE.C05@geocities.com> alright... the macXL was what i had in mind, i didnt remember the specs. ah well, i guess i will keep my eyes open. might have better luck with a spade out in logan, utah? hehe :} George Currie wrote: > Nope, just a plain ole MacII. You might be thinking of the MacXL which was > the re-badged Lisa with the extension that allowed it to run Mac apps. I guess > having the original shipping box (esp if it has all the docs, software, etc) would > be nice, but beyond that, not worth much, if anything. > > George From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 20:20:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Xerox Daybreak In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 23, 98 06:18:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2014 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/4231c382/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 20:23:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 98 04:43:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 856 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/2f4b11ba/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 23 20:28:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Xerox Daybreak In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 98 04:56:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1063 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/18d5153e/attachment.ksh From poesie at geocities.com Tue Jun 23 21:08:50 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: MacWorks has old mac systems for more or less free... *shrug* Message-ID: <35905FB2.5AF9@geocities.com> http://www.macworks.com/html/computers.html have old systems for "free", although there is a $25 handling 'fee' to make sure everything is inside. and if you're not in the kansas city area, there's 25 for shipping too. so they're not free, but i thought i'd just mention it if anyone for some strange reason is interested. -Eric From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jun 23 21:03:36 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Not really on-topic haiku Message-ID: A Win95 Haiku Yesterday, it worked Today it is not working Windows is like that (found in the local newspaper :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 23 21:08:56 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080) Message-ID: <199806240208.AA16002@world.std.com> In a message dated 98-06-23 22:09:20 EDT, you write: << A Win95 Haiku Yesterday, it worked Today it is not working Windows is like that (found in the local newspaper :) >> lol. i have a bunch more. message me privately if you want em. david From william at ans.net Tue Jun 23 21:27:53 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: <199806240208.AA16002@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Toners are wax resin > based and while storage life is good it's not great. Laser printers (and all toner based systems) are really no good for archiving data. The toner is only melted onto the surface, and will come right off if aped on! Take a laser printed page and fold it up a few times, then put it into a pocket for a few days and walk around with it - you will notice far less toner in some areas. Also, are not most inks for inkjet based systems water based? That spells trouble. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 23 21:35:38 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 References: <9805238986.AA898633622@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <359065FA.29A775B2@cnct.com> Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > >> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to > >> be backed up. > > > > Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem > > that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, > > althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write > > anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). > > > > So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed > > lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some > > PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are > > 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > > medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then try > > to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? > > This sould be reliable, since it is human readable > > (Like old magnetic tapes). > > Paper tape, of course! > > There is an action on me from this list last year (I think) to > investigate the possibility of Tyvek tapes. I still intend to do it, > but I don't know when! Yeah, I recall mentioning the near-indestructability of that material, having dealt with it as the stuff that disk envelopes were made of way back in the goodle days (All Tanty 8" floppies I ever saw were encased in it. . Since I lost the paper tapes from my (only ever) scholastic experience with computers (1978-9, HP-2000A, Foothill College, one BASIC course then tutoring) a long time ago due to cat pee. As far as I know, that Tyvek stuff can only be destroyed by fire -- well, it _can_ be stretched, but that doesn't actually destroy the data on a punched tape the way it does on a magnetic tape. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 23 21:58:57 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate References: Message-ID: <35906B71.4EF66878@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > When unfortunate neighbors who walk by my garage make the mistake of > actually showing interest in all these old machines I have stacked up in > there, they get caught in my nerd spider web and I end up talking their > ear off for as many hours as it takes for them to finally overcome their > politeness and yell "Enough already! You sick bastard!" Actually, the > two neighbors I have met this way were both techno-dorks like me and > enjoyed all the old memories (one is a guy who moved here from Scotland, > his first computer being the Sinclair ZX-80). > > I wish more people would show an interest since I love to talk about the > stuff. Maybe I should put up a sign when I'm working in the garage that > says "Don't be afraid to ask what all this junk is." :) Problem is, where you live it rains a fair amount, so much of the time you need to close the garage door. (Not as bad as our members up in OR and WA, but a lot more than in my old L.A. hometown [don't ask about the bloody weather here in New Jersey where I'm stuck until my father-in-law outlives me -- his family normally hits 90 {he's 79} and I'm 43 {and my family rarely hits 50}] but I'd love to move everything to the dry climate [it does snow some in Winter] of Wyoming). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Jun 23 21:58:15 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 23, 98 10:27:53 pm Message-ID: <199806240258.TAA16614@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1786 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980623/d725a1cf/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jun 23 21:46:13 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Not really on-topic haiku In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Yesterday, it worked > Today it is not working > Windows is like that Haiku Messages? This is the internet, Sam. There are many more. (http://www.mong.demon.co.uk/haiku.htm) -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 23 22:09:49 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) References: <199806231445.JAA25088@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> <5016@ifrsys.com> <3.0.3.32.19980623121905.00808cf0@netpath.net> Message-ID: <35906DFD.BF46B395@cnct.com> John Higginbotham wrote: > > One way to look at it: > (If you don't mind analogies) > > You have a cherry 1964 Corvette Stingray. Now you have two parties > interested in the car: A collector, who can't really afford to pay much for > it, but who would take care of the car and try to keep it in perfect > condition as long as he had it, and the other guy: Some snot-nosed teenager > (no offense to the teens out there!) who has a rich daddy, money to burn, > and is addicted to speed. This guy will go through 5 sets of tires in the > first month, leave the car out in the rain, get dents and dings all over > it, and generally drive it like a maniac. But this second guy is offering > 10 times what the poor collector is offering. What do you do? What DO you > do? Sell the car, go out and find 4 or 5 stingrays in shoddy condition, and > start fixing them up, maybe give the poor collector a deal on one, keep one > for yourself, and keep an eye out for more rich kids to sell the other two > cars to. Everyone's happy. :) Problem, body dents are the _hardest_ and _most expensive_ part of restoring old Corvettes. The engines are easy. Tires are cheap. I gave up that hobby early on. (Fiberglass is a bitch to patch). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 23 22:14:36 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) References: Message-ID: <35906F1C.C07569AD@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > On the other hand, the seller would be stupid to accept the > > first $300 if he gets a dozen offers of $300. I'll join the > > No, he wouldn't be stupid, he'd be honest. I'm sorry, but if I offer > something for sale and quote a price, then the first person to offer that > price gets it, no matter how many other offers I get, and no matter how > much those other offers are. I've decided what I think it's worth, and > that's the end of it. That's the way it works. If the offer says $300, first one gets it. If the offer says _minimum bid_ $300, that's different. Of course if the offer says $300 obo, then if the best bid after a week is $50, in theory that should cover it. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 23 22:55:02 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Convergent Miscellany References: Message-ID: <35907896.81FAB50D@cnct.com> R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > OKay, so what happened to the source for CTIX? Did it vanish? Who > > does it belong to? WHo do you think I belongs to? > > I think it belongs to Unisys. They own the trademark, anyway (through > their acquisition of Convergent). That is the legal situation. I know where I last _saw_ a copy of the source for version 3.51 for the Unix PC (and a copy of the source for what would have been next, equivalent to SysVR3) , never made it to SQA), but I haven't been able to contact him in a couple of years of trying. (CTIX for the regular machines _did_ reach SysVR3 in production, but that was after the Unix PC was history). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Jun 23 18:49:16 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980623104807.00fe2ad0@pc> References: <199806231445.JAA25088@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806240350.XAA10880@smtp.interlog.com> > At 09:41 AM 6/23/98 -0600, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > >So I posted it here, so some of our 'gang' could take a swing > >at it. The asking price _seemed_ fair, although I personally > >felt it was a tad high (more than _I_ would pay, anyway). > > > >What I figured would happen, some one would call, offer the guy > >$300, and that would be it. I had _no_ idea that this guy > >was gonna jack up the price into the stratusphere ($1,000 ? > >c'mon guys! Where's the enjoyment factor here?) > > I don't think you need to apologize. You did the list a service > by announcing the availability of this machine. > SNIP > On the other hand, the seller would be stupid to accept the > first $300 if he gets a dozen offers of $300. I'll join the > complaints about sellers who don't know how to conduct a decent > online bidding war. Far too often my persistent e-mails will be > ignored, only to be summarily dismissed when the item has > been sold. Geez, at least give me a chance to outbid! > > - John > I've reposted availability messages to the list and inevitably received offers or requests for info. Depending how I'm feeling that day , I'll either respond by pointing out that it was just a heads-up or else ignore the message. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 23 23:11:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080) References: <199806232118.QAA26744@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <35907C71.B5828004@cnct.com> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > Just make sure it's Teflon, or Tyvek based paper (if such things > exist), using some very high-tech ink/toner most modern papers (that > I know of) have a finite shelf-life. Now papryrus-- that's rugged! > S.L. = Several millenia Only if properly stored, in a cave or other sealed place in a dry climate many miles from the flood plain. And copy it quick after excavation and resultant exposure to moisture (like human breath). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From yaksaken at hkstar.com Tue Jun 23 23:25:54 1998 From: yaksaken at hkstar.com (Ken Yaksa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: available 8" disks Message-ID: <199806240429.MAA19691@imsp074.netvigator.com> HI Allison: ...... It means.... I still can't take some from you.... Err... BTW, if possible, you can give me your full name and the snail address, I will send you a bank draft.... You can ship the discs to me after you received the bank draft, okej? Yours, Ken Yaksa > < > > OK, here's the scoop. > > 1) I don't want to ship if I don't have to. > 2) I'd really rather not ship international > > No one is interrested in paying me to package them to ship. Even with > free boxes and wadded up newpaper as padding it's still my time and tape. > > 3) the games disks... that was an unfortunate inclusion and the number > of disks that represents is small compared to the SIGM and CPMUG portion > which is some 300 or so. The rest are belived blank, or what have you > on them. > > 3a) the cpmug and SIGM disks are all on the WCcdrom and simtel, I feel > no guilt dumping them as it's not like they are anywhere near the last on > earth. They are more useful as media of if you have a 8" cpm system > convenient. > > 4) they are all CP/M sssd though some may be ssdd. > > 5) local pickup prefered. > > > Allison From donm at cts.com Wed Jun 24 00:19:13 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, Tony, we in the Silicon Valley area were recently treated to a > > live demo of the Star at Xerox PARC, and one of the things we learned was > > that the "Daybreak" (we're talking about the brown tower case about 2' > > high x 16" deep by 16" wide, right?) is a later model of the Star (Model > > It's a little smaller than that, but it is the brown tower case machine. > And it's related to the Star (and to all the other D-machines). The Star that I remember from a Xerox demo, lo these many years ago, had a white case. - don > > 8035 I believe?) So I hope I'm remembering all this correctly, and I hope > > someone will jump in here if I'm wrong, but you may actually have a Star > > in your midst. > > Well, I have a related machine. Needless to say (as an ancient > workstation enthusiast), I'd like a Star, and all the other D-machines, > and a ... > > > > > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > > -tony > > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Jun 24 00:28:44 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 23, 98 10:49:35 pm Message-ID: <199806240528.WAA10950@saul9.u.washington.edu> > OK, where would _you_ go to find out about lights-and-switches front > panels (don't say 'my workshop', please :-)). That's a reasonable Actually, your workshop does seem like a pretty educational place! :) -- Derek From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jun 23 21:33:45 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Source of info on inside of Zip drive disk format layout. In-Reply-To: <199806150149.AA04934@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199806240629.CAA01820@mail.cgocable.net> Contact this guy if anyone is interested in archiving their stuff on Zip stuff. http://grc.com/clickdeath.htm Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From poesie at geocities.com Wed Jun 24 01:49:58 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: CoCo III at garage sale... References: <358F87E4.1756@isd.net> Message-ID: <3590A196.3AA6@geocities.com> Found this on usenet, don't know if any of you like that CoCO stuff. just thought i'd pass it along. please reply to him directly. -Eric > > Tandy CoCo sets. One is a box of rare CoCo stuff: books (fiction books > CoCo based, how-to program books, manuals, catalogs etc), connectors (I > don't even recall what half of them are), lots of cartridges (games, > etc), all fairly rare and cool. The other set is a CoCo III, with a > couple of joysticks, and five could game carts... a mini TV included! > Each set is $20. > > > Thanks, > Carty Fox > St. Paul, MN From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 24 01:53:12 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) References: Message-ID: <3590A258.111EF21C@rain.org> James Willing wrote: > > "if someone offers you a free IMSAI, do you tell them that they could > sell > it for a lot more on the net/web?" > > In general, no. Now, before the flames start; allow me to finish... That can be a hard question to answer. The IBM 5100 that I acquired several months included the printer, an external tape drive, and a monitor. All of this was at no charge. Having just seen pricing on just the 5100 ranging up to $500 or so, I went ahead and told this person about it. They responded by saying not a problem, and for me to enjoy. In general, I have found that being a fairly avid collector makes it much easier to deal with people who are looking for a good home for their old computers. From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jun 24 02:08:59 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: CoCo III at garage sale... In-Reply-To: <3590A196.3AA6@geocities.com> from "Poesie" at Jun 24, 98 01:49:58 am Message-ID: <199806240708.AAA16912@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 670 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/4e62078e/attachment.ksh From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 24 04:57:16 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806240744.JAA22313@marina.fth.sbs.de> > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: >> > > > > Disks on good equipment are as reliable as Magtape. > Better, I think, as with disks you need not be concerned with layer to > layer adhesion or layer to layer transfer. Maybe I shoud take some damaged 5,25" disks to the VCF to show the effects of fd aging. It's a real mess when the magnetic surface is tearing down. I have dozends of deffect _mecanical_ disks and already ruined five drives - and it took me about 6 hours (and one damaged head) to clean one and get it back working. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 24 05:09:29 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806240756.JAA23555@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> >So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed >> I suggest real CD-ROMs > Do you believe that there will still be working CD-ROM drives in > 20 or 30 years time? Remember they contain custom chips as well... Jep, I think there will still be (new) compatible drives in consumer price range - and I bet that there are for shure still new drives in the 'professional' price range in 20 years from now. I don't think the drive is the problem, new medias are maybe a lot more difficult to aquire - try to buy _new_ _manufactured_ 8" disks - everyting you get as 'new' is at least 6 years old. > And storage systems change. When was the last time you saw a working > Syquest 10Mbyte drive (note, the 2 on my shelf don't count, as they need > minor repairs...) No, never had one, but what about 10 MB Bernouli Drives from Iomega ? I still have a unit of two in working condition - now 15 years old. >> What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? > The problem is that the data is held by an electrostatic charge on a > floating gate in the chip. It's a capacitor, really, and like all > capacitors it slowly discharges. Now, the time constant may be 10 years > or 20 years, or whatever, but it's still going to discharge. ? depending on the tecnology. > And chips - all chips - fail. If (say) the bondout wire on one of the > data pins falls off, there's no easy way to repair it. Yes, but a lot less and later than magnetic medias. > Oh, and putting chips in styrofoam is the quickest way to damage them > from static. And although the damage may not be noticeable at the time, > the chip might fail 1 month later, or whatever. :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 24 05:12:18 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806240759.JAA23834@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> And for your question - The Lisa is, compared to the Star >> like Windows 3.0 compared to a Macintosh. A cheap surogat. > I thought it would be, but I'd still like one. I'm a serious PERQ-fanatic > - PERQs were the first commerically sold workstations, based on the work > done at PARC, and are not a cheap _anything_. And I've got the Daybreak > and (of course) a Macintosh. So I'd like the missing machine in the line, > but not at the current price. I still like to trade one of my lisas :) >> The differences arn't that big at first sight, but when >> working the wohle day just these 4 kesy on the left side >> are like switching from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Mercedes T. > The hardware is, I think, very different. I would guess the Star was like > a PERQ internally (the Daybreak has a lot of similarities to the PERQ 1). I'm not talking about the Hardware - 'only' about th UI. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 24 05:25:30 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806240812.KAA25363@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to >>> be backed up. >> Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem > On paper tape, of course. It's reliable (I've never found a tape that > can't be read), human-readable, and the automatic readers are simple > enough to be repairable... Jep. Good choice - I still have some paper tabes from the mid 70s in fine condition - but I also know (remembering the past) how fast they break... >> So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed >> lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some >> PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are >> 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > You can pack a lot of ROM dumps on a 1600bpi magtape.... Shure, but 1600 BpI is the first density not readable to humans. Again insecure. >> Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling >> EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS > Never!. I'd not trust an EPROM to last longer than 10 years. Nor any > other chip for that matter. Sure, a lot of them will, but some won't. And > if it's the last copy in the world, you've got problems. EPROMS are a real lot more reliable than any other media. >> (real one not EPROMS without window) should live even > All chips fail. Bond-outs break, the chip itself fails, etc. And some > fusible link devices suffer from a problem where the fuses grow back. > I've never seen it myself, but it happens (I've read books on it). And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. >> longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - >> it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or >> 2708 not already needed for an old computer. > Wait a second. Nobody is suggesting that (a) you don't keep the EPROM > you've backed up - or indeed that you don't keep using it, or (b) that > you don't stock up on components now. But in 20 years time, it'll be a > lot easier to repair a given a ROM dump - even if you have to > kludge in the latest multi-megabit EPROM - than without it. I'm not interested in the backup, or the content - I just want to have the particular computer, depending on the content of the ROM, running. So the backup is just a tool, but it has to be reliable for long time to reduce backup strategie time. I found EPROMS running well for 20 years in environments where a disk wont survive 1 day. And of course yes, I already have a small component stock including some 'new' EPROMS from 256 Bytes to 64K (2KBit ... 512KBit). Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 24 06:09:45 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <199806240856.KAA00409@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Incidentally, I spent a lot of time today in the Boston Science Museum. > They have some old models, even a functional steam engine, but also a > lot of hands on junk. Although kids do enjoy touching things and often > regard untouchable museums as boring, there is the issue of the > usefullness of the things, and even the issue of what knowledge we are > propagating to the children. Many of the exhibits were broken. The > robots exhibit had an arm shooting hoops. The worst it got was with the > model of the NASA Dante II robot. It was hands-on, all right: press the > up button to move a leg up, and the down button to move it down. Just > one leg. BTW, they had an early Amiga in one kiosk. At any rate, I was > kinda bored with so much floor space taken up by junk. The Boston Science Museum is an impressiv thing - or should be. I been there twice. Theoretical they could be a in competition with the Deutsches Museum, but in fact a lot displays look more like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe similar things in one space, without any description or system. The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special shows (like the 'Jurasic Park' exhibition or 'Boston Underground') are made with a huge effort but only a little information to tell. Maybe they are just no longer interestet in a general purpose (*G*) museum and change to a theme park including merchandise ... Gruss H. Btw: They have (had ?) a nice hands on display about mechanics (ropes and levers), made completely from wood (Again just standing senseles without any proper guide ). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 24 07:54:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806241254.AA15009@world.std.com> Preserving data is not like preserving a paining, we dont care about the image or the form as we can change it as needed. Magnetic media, even CDrom are viable as they do have a known life that is adaquately long to permit copying to newer media every 10-15 years time. The only other choices that have a better life span do so only if they are carefully handled or more correctly not handled. FYI: punched paper tape; MYLAR is the current long time winner... even then it ages. Eproms, I'd trust the newer devices longer than say the 1702 or 2708 but the industry feels 20 years is about it. Assuming the device doesn't fail from say lead bond failure, metalization cracking, Oxide flaws, electromigration or other failure mechanisms common to chips. I must point out that those failure are nearly as likely as forgetting by 20 years. Since many of those failure modes exist in all ICs even if the eprom is good it's possible everything around could have failed. Photographic film has shown remarkable life, it's a possible media for many decades. Allison From altair8800 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 24 08:31:15 1998 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Attache Altair?? Message-ID: <19980624133115.22034.qmail@hotmail.com> I have made contact with an individual who has what he describes as an Altair 8800 which is in an "Attache" case made by Icom in 1976. Would appreciate any information about this "Attache". Is it a very desirable thing. Were very many produced, etc? It has MITS boards (CPU, IO, disk controller) and power suppy. He wants to trade it to me for an Imsai 8800. Would that be a good trade on my part? Thanks, Bob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 24 10:48:29 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806241335.PAA28176@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Preserving data is not like preserving a paining, we dont care about the > image or the form as we can change it as needed. No, it's just the other way, if a painting is aging (beside real damage) nobody cares. The 'experts' even praise the quality - the best example is the Sistine Capel - Everybody told us that this dark thing was the intention, but now, after a closer look it reveals tat anything we had seen was aged 'till destruction thru smoke et.al. - after restauration this masterpeace is now rainbow coloured like a NYC garfity. Its the other way - we care about the content, an art galery doesn't care. They just want to have the thing. Especialy since the 'working' condition of an art thing isn't as easy to determinate as of an computer. > Photographic film has shown remarkable life, it's a possible media for > many decades. Only if you dont compare with an unaged copy (almost impossible :) But you could do a test - take a picture digitalize it and them wait 20 years (and keep your digital copy always readabe (I don't think I'll have to mention to preserve the equipment)). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jun 24 10:16:03 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Attache Altair?? In-Reply-To: <19980624133115.22034.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Bob Wood wrote: > I have made contact with an individual who has what he describes as an > Altair 8800 which is in an "Attache" case made by Icom in 1976. Would > appreciate any information about this "Attache". Is it a very desirable > thing. Were very many produced, etc? It has MITS boards (CPU, IO, disk > controller) and power suppy. He wants to trade it to me for an Imsai > 8800. Would that be a good trade on my part? For the sheer novelty of it I would say absolutely. I somehow vaguely remember reading this somewhere. Let us know some more details. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 24 10:27:26 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Attache Altair?? Message-ID: <199806241527.AA06555@world.std.com> What about phonographs? Do they last? (gives a new meaning to PROMs...) >And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. >Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 24 10:37:50 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <19980624153751.20266.qmail@hotmail.com> >like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe >similar things in one space, without any description or system. The system appeals to kids who enjoy running around and pushing buttons. The fact that 'the big dig' was next to ship models were next to trains and cars were next to stuff about DNA does make me wonder... >The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without >proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter >if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special Has anyone been to the Boston Museum of Natural History? Now _that_ is well organised and old fashioned. Endless rooms of glass cases with everything imaginable (The New York one is considerably less informative). >shows (like the 'Jurasic Park' exhibition or 'Boston Underground') >are made with a huge effort but only a little information to tell. >Maybe they are just no longer interestet in a general purpose (*G*) >museum and change to a theme park including merchandise ... Well, it DOES have to make money...but I agree that there is not that much info. e.g. there are many models of liquid fuel rockets, with light-up modules, and so forth, but nowhere is an explanation of how they work. >Gruss >H. > >Btw: They have (had ?) a nice hands on display about mechanics > (ropes and levers), made completely from wood (Again just > standing senseles without any proper guide ). Didn't see those, don't know. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 24 13:26:29 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <199806241613.SAA09436@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe >>similar things in one space, without any description or system. > The system appeals to kids who enjoy running around and pushing buttons. > The fact that 'the big dig' was next to ship models were next to trains > and cars were next to stuff about DNA does make me wonder... Big dig ? Oh sorry - did I mix up the name ? >>The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without >>proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter >>if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special > Has anyone been to the Boston Museum of Natural History? Now _that_ is > well organised and old fashioned. Endless rooms of glass cases with > everything imaginable (The New York one is considerably less > informative). Thank - I put it on my to-do list. Where is ist located ? Easy to find ? Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 24 11:18:02 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Attache Altair?? In-Reply-To: <19980624133115.22034.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Bob Wood wrote: > I have made contact with an individual who has > what he describes as an Altair 8800 which is > in an "Attache" case made by Icom in 1976. Would > appreciate any information about this "Attache". > Is it a very desirable thing. Were very many produced, etc? Attache "Altair" is somewhat misleading. MITS never put out a portable machine, however PERTEC made an attempt after they acquired MITS (and were in the process of driving it into the ground). The Pertec "Attache" was an attempt at an integrated S-100 computer. With cabinet markings very similar to the MITS Altair 8800B computer, it used the existing MITS CPU, Memory, and I/O boards, and the ICOM (another acqusition) floppy controller for 5.25 inch drives. (although I do recall seeing a unit or two with the standard MITS controller connected to 8 inch drives) It is an interesting unit as a representative item in the progression of early production micro-computers. No idea how many were made however... > It has MITS > boards (CPU, IO, disk controller) and power suppy. > He wants to trade it to me for an Imsai 8800. > Would that be a good trade on my part? Well... if you don't take it... (big grin) point him my way! B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 24 11:25:37 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Attache Altair?? In-Reply-To: <199806241527.AA06555@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > Bewary as to some people all small airplanes are Piper Cubs! It > may not be MITS at all or only some. Calling it an ALTAIR means > specifically one of four possible boxes all desktop sized > (Altair 8800, the altair 8800B, the 8800B front pannel less version > or the Altair680). You forgot the Altair 8800A B^} > Interesting. MITS never made a portable or toteable. At first I'd > suspected it was an Ontrona Attache. Correct. MITS never did, however PERTEC did after acquiring MITS. The "Attache" that PERTEC put out is significantly from the unit of the same name that Ottrona built. (I have an Ottrona unit in my collection, and used to work on the PERTEC critters...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jun 24 12:07:39 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Xerox Daybreak In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:56:17 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199806241707.KAA05316@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > IIRC, the Star had both a custom microcoded CPU and had an 8080 (or 8085) > > to handle I/O. > > I believe 8080 is correct (remember, the design was started in the 1975 > timeframe, but did extend into 1981 when it was released). The 8085 is > circa 1976. Why didn't I take better notes!? ;) Yeah, me too. But this is where I stopped: it was an 8085. ... The Star presentation was certainly well attended -- it was packed to overflowing! I was out in the lobby watching the presentation on a monitor, and apparently there were other folks watching other monitors in the cafeteria. Anyway, that is why I gave up on notes -- couldn't concentrate on the palmtop keyboard and the monitor at the same time. Afterward a bunch of us did get together outside the auditorium lobby, Uncle Roger tried to make me hold up a classiccmp sign, I tried waving my appendages a bit whenever I saw someone I recognized, and somehow I think we completely missed Rax. Sorry about that, Rax. I will try to plan better next time. So who was there? Roger Sinasohn, Rachel ? (Uncle Roger's girlfriend -- the schoolteacher who is always on the lookout for Macs), Doug Yowza, Doug Coward, Paul Coad, Sam Ismail, Edwin El-Kareh, and y'r humble narrator. Stuff was swapped, stories were exchanged, we moved to the parking lot, yakked some more, then security came around, someone made the mistake of asking me where to go and I suggested the El Paso Cafe in Mountain View. (Hey, I know *I* can get some good cheap eats there.) Notes: (a) At least some of us seem to want to do this get-together thing again. Of course we did not reach any consensus w/r/t time and date as Roger now wants to check and see whether his tap dancing lessons collide. (b) We need to start earlier, 9:00 PM is late for dinner and the El Paso closes at 10:00. Other places close earlier than that. (c) So...fine, here's a time and place for all us Bay Areans to argue over: Second Thursday, 09 July 1998, 7:00 PM, El Paso Cafe, 1407 W El Camino Real, Mountain View. Y'all can flame me about this in public or private, and I'm still open to change, but I want to announce the real time and place on 30 June. -Frank McConnell From g at kurico.com Wed Jun 24 12:32:38 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Xerox Daybreak In-Reply-To: <199806241707.KAA05316@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Sam Ismail's message of Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: I don't suppose that anyone (Xerox?) taped this presentation did they? I know I would love to see the demo and wouldn't mind paying to get a copy. George > The Star presentation was certainly well attended -- it was packed to > overflowing! I was out in the lobby watching the presentation on a > monitor, and apparently there were other folks watching other monitors in > the cafeteria. Anyway, that is why I gave up on notes -- couldn't > concentrate on the palmtop keyboard and the monitor at the same time. > > Afterward a bunch of us did get together outside the auditorium lobby, > Uncle Roger tried to make me hold up a classiccmp sign, I tried waving my > appendages a bit whenever I saw someone I recognized, and somehow I think > we completely missed Rax. Sorry about that, Rax. I will try to plan > better next time. > > So who was there? Roger Sinasohn, Rachel ? (Uncle Roger's girlfriend -- > the schoolteacher who is always on the lookout for Macs), Doug Yowza, Doug > Coward, Paul Coad, Sam Ismail, Edwin El-Kareh, and y'r humble narrator. > Stuff was swapped, stories were exchanged, we moved to the parking lot, > yakked some more, then security came around, someone made the mistake of > asking me where to go and I suggested the El Paso Cafe in Mountain View. > (Hey, I know *I* can get some good cheap eats there.) > > Notes: > > (a) At least some of us seem to want to do this get-together > thing again. Of course we did not reach any consensus w/r/t time and > date as Roger now wants to check and see whether his tap dancing > lessons collide. > > (b) We need to start earlier, 9:00 PM is late for dinner and > the El Paso closes at 10:00. Other places close earlier than > that. > > (c) So...fine, here's a time and place for all us Bay Areans to > argue over: Second Thursday, 09 July 1998, 7:00 PM, El Paso Cafe, 1407 > W El Camino Real, Mountain View. Y'all can flame me about this in > public or private, and I'm still open to change, but I want to > announce the real time and place on 30 June. > > -Frank McConnell From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jun 24 12:59:17 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Xerox Daybreak In-Reply-To: <199806241707.KAA05316@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 24, 98 10:07:39 am Message-ID: <199806241759.KAA17473@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1145 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/0892e33f/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Jun 24 13:03:11 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... Message-ID: <13366395460.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> This is roundabout. I work at an ISP. I have to figure out how to work a Macintosh, so as to explain to customers how to set theirs up. This sounds reasonable - so the salesguy produces a Mac SE. Unfortunately, it has no mouse or keyboard. SO I go about looking around. Can't afford $90 for a mouse and keyboard that the only-Mac-shop-in-town has, so I go looking for used stuff. I turn up a Macintosh 512K (Sadly abused. The people KEPT IT IN THE GARAGE SO TI WOULDN'T GIVE THEIR VCR A COMPUTER VIRUS.) Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse. So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could spread thru the power lines. :) More information on either box would be appreciated... ------- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 24 13:18:57 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... Message-ID: <51af1aa.35914312@aol.com> Sorry, this is mac! you cant adapt pc stuff for this. the se and later use ADB, with mini-din connectors. plus and earlier use a db9 style mouse and phone cord keyboard. i doubt either can be adapted. id love to find some mac plus keyboards and mouses so i can sell a bunch of macs i have myself. In a message dated 98-06-24 14:05:01 EDT, you write: << Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse. So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could spread thru the power lines. :) >> From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 24 13:39:24 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... Message-ID: <19980624183925.3187.qmail@hotmail.com> But a mouse is a mouse, isn't it? I think it is possible to adapt a PC mouse to a mac...not the keyboard, though. There was a site on the net dealing with these things, but I think it might be gone. It would be much easier for the plus, btw, since it doesn't use ADB >Sorry, this is mac! you cant adapt pc stuff for this. the se and >later use ADB, with mini-din connectors. plus and earlier use a db9 >style mouse and phone cord keyboard. i doubt either can be adapted. >id love to find some mac plus keyboards and mouses so i can sell a >bunch of macs i have myself. > >In a message dated 98-06-24 14:05:01 EDT, you write: > ><< Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse. > > So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? > Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? > > As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could > spread thru the power lines. :) >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erd at infinet.com Wed Jun 24 14:33:08 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: <13366395460.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 24, 98 11:03:11 am Message-ID: <199806241933.PAA22706@user2.infinet.com> > So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? > Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? The 512K uses an older mouse that is internally compatible with a PC bus mouse or an Amiga mouse, just one button. I do not know the pinout of the Mac, but it should be a trivial exercise to build a pin swabber. You could build a pin swabber for an Amiga mouse with two 9-25 pin adapters and a 25 pin "user configurable" plug box (two connectors, a circuit board, a bunch of jumper wires, all the size of a large null modem enclosure). The keyboard is Mac proprietary. The SE, as another poster pointed out, used ADB. There are clone mice and keyboards about, but you'll drop as much as the SE is worth trying to pick up a new mouse and keyboard for it. The SE can go to 4Mb, take an internal 3.5" SCSI drive (but non-apple drives need third-party formatters), and is somewhat useful. The 512K can take some snap-in accessories (I have a Dove board w/512K and SCSI), but they are rare now. Oh, only some 512K's (512Ke) have double-sided drives. Few SE's have FDHD drives (1.44Mb). Enjoy, -ethan From g at kurico.com Wed Jun 24 14:39:57 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: <13366395460.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: > This is roundabout. I work at an ISP. I have to figure out how to work a > Macintosh, so as to explain to customers how to set theirs up. This > sounds reasonable - so the salesguy produces a Mac SE. Unfortunately, it > has no mouse or keyboard. SO I go about looking around. Can't afford $90 > for a mouse and keyboard that the only-Mac-shop-in-town has, so I go > looking for used stuff. I turn up a Macintosh 512K (Sadly abused. The > people KEPT IT IN THE GARAGE SO TI WOULDN'T GIVE THEIR VCR A COMPUTER > VIRUS.) Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse. > > So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? > Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? > > As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could > spread thru the power lines. :) > > More information on either box would be appreciated... > ------- As many have said, you need adb for the SE. One thing to consider is finding someone who is selling/giving away their SE. Often times you can buy a complete SE with kb and mouse for cheaper than buying the kb and mouse seperately! You might try your local Goodwill for the kb and mouse for the 512K. If you still have problems finding them, let me know, I have spares. George From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 24 14:42:58 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Paper floppy disk Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980624144258.00c96400@pc> Below is a description of the "paper floppy disk" as given by an old friend of mine, Dennis Adams , who once worked on this technology. - John The "Paper Floppy Disk" Newslog International (aka Lab1) developed technology for recording up to 30-50K of data on a printed piece of cardstock approximately 6" x 4". The data was recorded with error detection and correction information (Reed-Soloman, I believe), as well as redundant groups, so it could withstand misprints, marks, holes, and other flaws. This was all pre-CD, and the cost was very cheap. One of the names for them was TDB's for Transportable Databases. They were intended for software distribution, database updates, games on the back of cereal boxes, etc. Each track was a portion of a circle (about 1/10 of the circumference). The reader had a large (approx. 14") spinning wheel, and supported variable track pitch and data bits per inch (so different quality paper and printing processes could be supported), and could track media that was not cut square by skewing the tray that held the media (since there was no physical or optical "center" on the media -- it had a virtual movable "hole" to spin on). It used a Z80 microprocessor (running extremely tweaked assembly language by Al Jewer) and interfaced to a computer via "high-speed" RS-232 (9600 bps). I did demo software on a variety of hosts, including the Storm operating system (multi-user CP/M OS by Ron Fowler, also the author of the popular MEX communications software), Commodore 64, and IBM-PC XT. We had a Coleco Adam computer that we briefly considered writing something for, but it never stayed running long enough to evaluate. We did a multi-month trial of a large database update for a large company based in Moline. We sent out three months of updates to a 13M database. Each update was a half-dozen or so cards that could be scanned in any order and then the update was applied to the database. This was run at three dealerships that could retrieve up-to-date database information much faster than their microfiche system which was always out-of-date. It also displayed additional textual information that was on other microfiche or books and not usually referenced. This was circa 1985, and was quite impressive to the people who used it. So much so that the actual media technology took a back seat to the database system itself (an interesting lesson to be learned there). Newslog / Lab1 ran out of money before the technology could be completely finished and sold or marketed. Not that they didn't try. I learned a lot about "demos" and "demospeak" while I worked there. I still have some media around, but alas no reader. I'm willing to bet it could be read by a modern high-res scanner. An energetic soul could probably even write a reader emulator that fed the bits that it peeled radially from the high-res scan into the actual Z80 reader code to decode it. The best anecdote I recall regarding the technology was in the "camera" software that generated the film original used for duplication: the base unit of measurement was derived from the bits-per-track and camera wheel speed and other factors I've forgotten. All of the internal calculations were based on this "tick", which varied in actual length, but was approximately 1mS. The camera system's author was Bill Whitford, and the unit of measurement henceforth became known as a "willisecond." Bill's code ran on a much larger processor with a lot of memory (I think it might have been a 4Mhz Z80 with 64K of memory), so he development in C. From ecloud at goodnet.com Wed Jun 24 16:24:45 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:47 2005 Subject: Paper floppy disk In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980624144258.00c96400@pc> from "John Foust" at Jun 24, 98 02:42:58 pm Message-ID: <199806242124.OAA01419@goodnet.com> > Newslog International (aka Lab1) developed technology for recording up > to 30-50K of data on a printed piece of cardstock approximately 6" x 4". I heard of a system a year or two ago for sending data via fax machines. There was software to send special markings via a fax modem, and software for the other end to process the received fax image. It would work even if you received on a plain fax machine, made a generation or two of photo copies, and then scanned it. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * eschew obfuscation * Gravis Ultrasound * packet radio * Star Trek * From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 12:51:23 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jun 23, 98 10:19:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 400 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/dbae9fe6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 12:53:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <199806240528.WAA10950@saul9.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Jun 23, 98 10:28:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 541 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/06170bf5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 12:33:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <359065FA.29A775B2@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jun 23, 98 10:35:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 773 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/a0c27858/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 13:03:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806240756.JAA23555@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 24, 98 10:10:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2556 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/dc705d80/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 13:11:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806240812.KAA25363@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 24, 98 10:26:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2341 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/51473337/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Wed Jun 24 16:55:30 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I am _not_ convinced. Think of all the demountable disk packs (RK02's, > RK05's, RL01's, RL02's, RK06's, RK07's, RM02's, RP04's, CDC Larks, > RC25's, etc, etc, etc). Can you still get _new_ drives for any of those? CD-ROMs have the advantage that they are far more widespread than any of the above disks ever dreamed to be. They are world standards, as oppossed to company-specific standards. With the music industry behind them, CD-ROMs will be around for a long time. William Donzelli william@ans.net From franke at sbs.de Wed Jun 24 19:25:21 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806242212.AAA25001@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>>>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to >>>>> be backed up. >>>> Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem >>> On paper tape, of course. It's reliable (I've never found a tape that >>> can't be read), human-readable, and the automatic readers are simple >>> enough to be repairable... >> Jep. Good choice - I still have some paper tabes from the mid >> 70s in fine condition - but I also know (remembering the past) >> how fast they break... > Paper tapes can be spliced if they break (did I mention I had a splicing > jig and tapes here...). An a good reader shouldn't break the tape anyway. > As an aside, paper tape holes are at 0.1" spacing. You can make a > useable splicing jig by soldering a row of pins to a piece of stripboard > (say at 0.3" spacing), and using those to hold the sprocket track on the > tape. So, what you tellin' me ? I've been in the repair business for these devices some time around 1980 *grin* >>>> So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed >>>> lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some >>>> PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are >>>> 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical >>> You can pack a lot of ROM dumps on a 1600bpi magtape.... >> Shure, but 1600 BpI is the first density not readable >> to humans. Again insecure. > But some 1600bpi drives are _always_ repairable. And the format is > sufficiently well documented that a drive could always be made. Almost, yes, and for the formats also yes - but not the media. I had even new taps failing to record. >>>> Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling >>>> EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS >>> Never!. I'd not trust an EPROM to last longer than 10 years. Nor any >>> other chip for that matter. Sure, a lot of them will, but some won't. And >>> if it's the last copy in the world, you've got problems. >> EPROMS are a real lot more reliable than any other media. > I've had EPROMs fail. I've had floppy disks fail. Never had a 9-track > tape fail, though. Never really lost any data because I've had it backed > up... Maybe just our different past - I have seen almost any kind of magnetic media fail but never EPROMS. >> And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. >> Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. > Oh, I don't know. I've managed to play 1960's reel-to-reel audio tapes > (and early 19790's video tapes, reel and cassette) with no real > problems. If you pick a suitably redundant format for the data I suspect > it'll be OK. Managed to play and recovering all information are different things. And back to CDs (to reunite the two threads): Theres a huge difference between your listed magnetic things and CDs - the music sector - I bet any summ you want that there will be new drives in 20 years from now, able to read a CD made today (if the CD contend isn't damaged of course). I'm not talking about any specific drive of today - your right - its even dificult to get a custom chip just 2.5 years after the drive. Its about drives that are _able_ to read the backup medias. And for Zip - you're also right - I think, like you, that Zip or syquests will be forgotten in less than 15 years (for _new_ installments). Serus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Wed Jun 24 17:42:31 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Paper floppy disk In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980624144258.00c96400@pc> from "John Foust" at Jun 24, 98 02:42:58 pm Message-ID: <199806242242.SAA27469@shell.monmouth.com> > > > Below is a description of the "paper floppy disk" as given by > an old friend of mine, Dennis Adams , > who once worked on this technology. > > - John > > > The "Paper Floppy Disk" > I did demo > software on a variety of hosts, including the Storm operating system > (multi-user CP/M OS by Ron Fowler, also the author of the popular MEX > communications software), Commodore 64, and IBM-PC XT. We had a Coleco Adam > computer that we briefly considered writing something for, but it never > stayed running long enough to evaluate. Anyone know if Ron Fowler's still out there on the net somewhere. I'm a big Mex/Mex+ fan... and still run it occasionally when I fire up the CP/M and early dos boxes here. Bill From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Jun 24 17:46:36 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <19980624224637.3377.qmail@hotmail.com> >It certainly has been (and will continue to be) for me... > >But seriously, since my workshop isn't open to the public, and almost >nobody knows who I am, where should %random_person go to find out >about real front panels, forerunners of Windows, etc. If not a science >museum, then where? >-tony The local public library. Get a comfy chair, sit in front of the terminal, call up lynx, get a hotmail account, and subscribe to the mailing list. Of course, if the library has some back issues of computer magazines or computer history books, those never hurt either ;) A museum is generally considered to be a 'fun place' and though it is possible to learn quite a bit, they can't beat reading a good book (though they are a visual compendium). BTW, the Boston Computer Museum has a very good history section. Books like 'A Secret Guide To Computers' also educate quite a bit. Lastly, since you're so worried about this (we all are, I hope) why not just write a book? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From donm at cts.com Wed Jun 24 18:18:21 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806240744.JAA22313@marina.fth.sbs.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> Disks on good equipment are as reliable as Magtape. > > > Better, I think, as with disks you need not be concerned with layer to > > layer adhesion or layer to layer transfer. > > Maybe I shoud take some damaged 5,25" disks to the VCF > to show the effects of fd aging. It's a real mess when > the magnetic surface is tearing down. I have dozends > of deffect _mecanical_ disks and already ruined five > drives - and it took me about 6 hours (and one damaged > head) to clean one and get it back working. My experience with that failure mode has been largely limited to 8" Verbatim floppies. They supposedly had a 'lubricated' surface to ease head wear. Don't know whether that idea worked or not, but they sure mucked up a couple of heads for me on a temporary basis. Spoiled some file transfer too! I learned a strong lesson from that, though. Do a disk copy before you try to read individual files! - don From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Jun 24 18:47:54 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: New e-mail address Message-ID: Sorry for this administrivia, but if anyone cares I posted a new e-mail address a short while ago. Please disregard this address. My primary e-mail address still remains dastar@wco.com, and you may also e-mail me at sam@siconic.com or though the Vintage Computer Festival web pages (http://www.siconic.com/vcf). Again, sorry for the interruption. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 24 19:04:01 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 References: Message-ID: <359193F0.8E46A6D2@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Since I lost the paper tapes from my (only ever) scholastic experience > > with computers (1978-9, HP-2000A, Foothill College, one BASIC course > > then tutoring) a long time ago due to cat pee. As far as I know, that > > You were unlucky - very... (and I'd better keep the cat out of the > computer room :-)). I once found a length of paper tape on a muddy river > bank. Curiousity made me pick it up, and after wiping it off and drying > it on a radiator overnight, I had no problem at all in reading it on a > Trend optical reader. IIRC it contained some kind of Fortran source code. > > > Tyvek stuff can only be destroyed by fire -- well, it _can_ be stretched, > > I think you'll find that paper (at least) will withstand higher > temperatures than most magnetic media... I'm not talking about bonding oxides to Tyvek -- I'm talking about punching holes in long by 1" (or whatever the proper width is) strips of it. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 24 19:07:04 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 References: Message-ID: <359194A8.74C7AC67@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > > I am _not_ convinced. Think of all the demountable disk packs (RK02's, > > RK05's, RL01's, RL02's, RK06's, RK07's, RM02's, RP04's, CDC Larks, > > RC25's, etc, etc, etc). Can you still get _new_ drives for any of those? > > CD-ROMs have the advantage that they are far more widespread than any of > the above disks ever dreamed to be. They are world standards, as oppossed > to company-specific standards. With the music industry behind them, Like eight-track tape? (I still have a few). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 17:33:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: <13366395460.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 24, 98 11:03:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1706 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/0c45dd03/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 17:38:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: <199806241933.PAA22706@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 24, 98 03:33:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1172 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980624/db5a8aa1/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 24 19:26:31 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: CoCo III at garage sale... References: <199806240708.AAA16912@squeep.com> Message-ID: <35919937.F594ABEC@cnct.com> Seth J. Morabito wrote: > > > > Tandy CoCo sets. One is a box of rare CoCo stuff: books (fiction books > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > CoCo based, how-to program books, manuals, catalogs etc), connectors (I > > Woah, what's that all about? Something along the lines of "In a dark > future, a lone boy with the power of his trusty TANDY COCO saves the > galaxy from domination by the evil Q'OMMADOR Empire"? :) > > (seriously, does anyone know if the "fiction books" listed actually > refer to CoCo fiction?) There was a (short) series of classic books with tapes for the Color Computer line, abridged versions not much better than the old "Classics Comics". Part of the educational side of the machine. I think I've got "The Hound of the Baskervilles" around somewhere. Oh, these were Tandy products. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jun 24 15:36:43 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: References: <199806241933.PAA22706@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 24, 98 03:33:08 pm Message-ID: <199806250032.UAA05764@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:38:41 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Macintoshes... > > > > > > > So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? > > > Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? > > > > The 512K uses an older mouse that is internally compatible with a PC > > bus mouse or an Amiga mouse, just one button. I do not know the pinout useful info on hacking regular bus mouses for older 9 pin mouse on mac machine snipped! > > Yes, it's _strange_. 4 wires, +5V, Data, Clock, Ground. The mac end uses > the shift register in a 6522, the keyboard end uses a microcontroller > (8021?). Given a keyboard the protocol is probably hackable with a logic > analyser (future project?), > > -tony Tony, You Should. Why? Suppose, Every time a user have problem with their keyboard or needs longer keyboard wire, finds a telephone wire and plugs in, power up... POW! Dead keyboard controller IC in keyboard. No where to obtain but I could be mistaken. I think better off digging out that info on that programming and recreate a new adapter using a PIC or easier to obtain microcontroller IC. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From rax at warbaby.com Wed Jun 24 20:44:35 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Xerox Daybreak In-Reply-To: <199806241707.KAA05316@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Sam Ismail's message of Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Frank McC wrote: >Afterward a bunch of us did get together outside the auditorium lobby, >Uncle Roger tried to make me hold up a classiccmp sign, I tried >waving my appendages a bit whenever I saw someone I recognized, and >somehow I think we completely missed Rax. Sorry about that, Rax. >I will try to plan better next time. > Sorry as hell that I had to miss it, but I got hit with a rush job the day before. It was a gig that I really wanted to land (long-term, ongoing contract to write scripts for museum tours), and I wanted to show them that I could meet any deadline they could throw at me. Got it done, they loved my work and I'm back in the ranks of the gainfully employed. I'm looking forward to meeting all you local Bay Area classiccmp geeks, so please keep me posted on when you'll be emerging into daylight again. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 24 19:52:09 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Macintoshes..." (Jun 24, 23:38) References: Message-ID: <9806250152.ZM11028@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 24, 23:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > > So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? > > > Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? Not for the keyboard, it uses 8 data bits with no start/stop/parity bits and a separate clock; XT keyboards use 8 data bits with 2 start bits, 1 make/break bit, and a stop bit; AT/PS2 keyboards use 1 start bit, 8 data bits, 1 parity bit, 1 stop bit. > > null modem enclosure). The keyboard is Mac proprietary. > > Yes, it's _strange_. 4 wires, +5V, Data, Clock, Ground. The mac end uses > the shift register in a 6522, the keyboard end uses a microcontroller > (8021?). Given a keyboard the protocol is probably hackable with a logic > analyser (future project?), Yes, it is an 8021. The protocol is in "Inside Macintosh", Vol. III pp30-32. It's fairly simple, though it's bi-directional. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 19:13:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 24, 98 05:55:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1144 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/e4ac5042/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 19:17:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <19980624224637.3377.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 24, 98 03:46:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 927 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/0334fdd5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 19:24:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <359193F0.8E46A6D2@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jun 24, 98 08:04:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 643 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/0c5e723a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 19:44:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806242212.AAA25001@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 25, 98 00:26:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4002 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/d79e2247/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 20:01:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: <19980624224637.3377.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 24, 98 03:46:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 443 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/5e9995c1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 20:12:36 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: <9806250152.ZM11028@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 25, 98 00:52:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 875 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/9993a91c/attachment.ksh From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jun 24 20:22:41 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199806250122.LAA28657@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 05:55 PM 24-06-98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >CD-ROMs have the advantage that they are far more widespread than any of >the above disks ever dreamed to be. They are world standards, as oppossed >to company-specific standards. With the music industry behind them, >CD-ROMs will be around for a long time. Indeed, and with DVD being able to read CDs you'd expect no difficulty in reading CDs for the next 20 years or so. I'd certainly want to be able to listen to my music CDs for that sort of time-span. In fact, with the number of CDs I have, if I listened to a couple a week, it'd take 20 years :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From mbg at world.std.com Wed Jun 24 20:42:17 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... Message-ID: <199806250142.AA23694@world.std.com> >The 512K uses an older mouse that is internally compatible with a PC bus >mouse or an Amiga mouse, just one button. I do not know the pinout of >the Mac, but it should be a trivial exercise to build a pin swabber. You Speaking of Mac Mice... At the MIT Flea this past weekend, I picked up a mouse for the Mac Classic I mentioned in other mail... it is the 'original' style of apple mouse. My question is whether this will work correctly with the Mac Classic -- it does seem to plug in, but since I'm not getting much response from the system, I don't know... BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes light grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds and then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this way for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this normal? Have I simply not allowed the system adequate time to boot to a user screen? (I'm used to an RT system which boots in about 30-45 seconds, depending on amount of memory). Also, there are two buttons on the left side of the case... one apparently does the mac equivalent of the three-fingered-salute on PCs... the other one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go away and be replaced by one which lookes the same (banner background) but with a '>' sign... What is this? Please pardon a really naive Mac user (this is my first use of a Mac, and I'm not impressed so far), and I'm trying to get this thing working for my partner's pre-school class. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Wed Jun 24 20:54:47 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: ID select on scsi disks Message-ID: <199806250154.AA02630@world.std.com> This past weekend, I picked up a few cases for SCSI disks... they have a device on the back panel which allows one to select the SCSI id by just pushing one of two buttons until the proper ID shows... I've used a VOM to figure out which wires from this thing are what, but the connector it same with is not compatible with the (as far as I can tell) standard of three sets of jumper-width pins. I'd like to button this thing up so I don't have to open it again (except to replace a bad disk) but can't find anything which fits the spacing of these pins... For those for whom this info would be useful in telling the spacing, the disks are RZ35s (from DEC). I don't know who actually produces them. Any help appreciated... My next plan is to try one of the inter-board connectors (one board has a socket and one has pins)... the socket connector seems to have proper spacing, but I've yet to actualy try it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 24 21:07:40 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Early speech board maker? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980624210740.00bbee80@pc> Here's an excerpt of a posting that triggered my IMSAI smart agent. Does anyone recognize his name, or the company he's describing? - John Jefferson Computer Museum Subject: Re: WRQ's @Guard From: Wirt Atmar Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:07:56 EDT Message-ID: <3dda660e.358c088e@aol.com> Mailing List: HP3000-L@utcvm.utc.edu .... Just because something is possible doesn't mean that anybody's gonna want it. The very first business that AICS was involved in was computer-based speech synthesis. Indeed, that's where our name comes from (AICS = artificially intelligent cybernetic systems). The company grew out of something that had previously been just a hobby of mine -- and a potential dissertation project for graduate school: completely host-based speed synthesis, de novo, where an electrical analog of the human vocal tract was commanded to truly synthesize new speech rather than simply play back digitized human speech. In 1976, when I finished school and the company was formed, we actually made a lot of money surprisingly easily and surprising quickly selling speech synthesizers as drop-in boards for Altair and IMSAI microcomputers. That was a time you could sell anybody anything. Every conference was a feeding frenzy of buying. You threw something up in the air and ten people wanted it. In 1976 also, when I became a professor at our local university, several students also continued on with the speech synthesis work. Vickie Kurtz, a person who you actually sort of know because she is more or less single- handedly putting together QCTerm now, did her master's work with me then. For her thesis, Vickie put together the best vowel synthesizer that I ever heard, using voltage-controlled oscillators, controlled by a simple rom-based finite state automaton so as to simulate the mechanical inertias found in the vocal tract. Although her synthesizer didn't have any sort of noise generator in it, so it couldn't form the fricatives (hiss-like sounds) necessary for full speech synthesis, its vowels were the most human-like I've ever heard and were essentially indistinguishable from a baby's babbling or cat-like animal. Vickie finished in 1982. A year or two earlier, Texas Instruments got into speech synthesis in a big way using a technique halfway between digitized speech and speech synthesis, a process that might now be called "smoothed sampling". It worked much better than true synthesis in that its intelligiblity was quite good. Because of that, TI was able to sell a variety of manufacturers on the idea of having talking washing machines, microwave ovens, vaccuum cleaners, etc. The most expensive of these talking machines was the Chrysler LeBaron automobile -- and people (the end-users, not the engineers) found all of this incredibly irritating. The single most requested option on the LeBaron, by far and away, was to have the speech generator deleted. Talking appliances were a technological fad that lasted only about three years, 1979-1982. ... Wirt Atmar From william at ans.net Wed Jun 24 21:20:52 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You mean like 78 rpm records, wax cylinders, 8-track tapes, Playtape > cassettes, etc... Or 33 and 45 rpm vinyl and cassettes. If you think these three formats, at least two of which are getting rather elderly, are obsolete, think again. >Some of those were quite popular at one time. But not nearly as popular as more modern mediums. The first two examples date from a time when not every other person on the train has a personal deck. > And even if CD's remain a common medium for music (which is by no means > certain), that doesn't mean CD-ROMs will be available. It's not trivial > to modify a CD player into a CD-ROM drive. Possible, but not a 10 minute > project. I'd rather trust my data to a medium for which I could build a > reader from scratch if I had to. And there's not a single essential part > in a Trend reader that I couldn't recreate if I had to. The hard part of a CD drive (either kind) is the head and servo system, and if those parts work already, your almost all the way home. The format for CDs is well documented. You could even decode everything in software, once the entire bitstream of a CD is read. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 24 21:25:00 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980624212500.00c873c0@pc> Here's an excerpt of an e-mail I received recently from an admin at the UCSD computing center, where the UCSD P-System was developed. Ken Bowles was one of the primary forces behind the P-System, and wrote an early popular Pascal text. - John Jefferson Computer Museum >Subject: UCSD Pascal > >Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch stuff, >old tapes, etc. which were trashed because no one wanted them. I'll look >around here and see if there's anything left. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 21:27:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 24, 98 10:20:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/5216a4ee/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 24 21:40:21 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 References: Message-ID: <3591B895.E4F4B9DD@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Tyvek stuff can only be destroyed by fire -- well, it _can_ be stretched, > > > > > > I think you'll find that paper (at least) will withstand higher > > > temperatures than most magnetic media... > > > > I'm not talking about bonding oxides to Tyvek -- I'm talking about > > punching holes in long by 1" (or whatever the proper width is) strips > > of it. > > You misunderstood me. I was pointing out that paper tape (as in punched > paper tape) would stand a higher tempearature than magnetic media in > general. I don't know about (punched) Tyvek tape - but I would guess it > would be somewhere between magnetic tape and punched paper tape. Well, if the house burns down, every known computer storage medium is going to break down -- I am _not_ going to try carving source code into granite slabs. But Tyvek punched tape would _seem_ to have all other drawbacks of paper tape covered (even if the Tyvek is stretched [which rarely happens by accident] it'll be readable). I've put Tyvek disk envelopes through a wash & dry cycle on hot, and they came out fine and undistorted. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 21:31:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: <199806250142.AA23694@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jun 24, 98 09:42:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1881 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/6fba953a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 24 21:34:14 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: ID select on scsi disks In-Reply-To: <199806250154.AA02630@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Jun 24, 98 09:54:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/89e9cde5/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 24 20:30:56 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Macintoshes..." (Jun 25, 2:12) References: Message-ID: <9806250230.ZM11152@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 25, 2:12, Tony Duell wrote: > Alas I don't have Inside Macintosh, and the old volumes seem to be out of > print. From what I rember, the keyboard sources the clock signal, and the > data line is bidirectional. The Mac starts a transmission by pulling the > data line low and releasing it, or something, doesn't it? That's right. > As to what the actual bytes mean, well, I've not hacked it yet. Looks like I need a trip to the photocopier again :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From transit at primenet.com Wed Jun 24 21:51:18 1998 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: IBM RS6000 for sale Message-ID: I found this on another list I'm on. Is this of any interest to anyone here? (If so, please contact the original poster directly. Thanks) ----------------begin forwarded message--------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:39:03 -0700 From: Nathan Schwartz To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RS6000 IBM RS6000 for sale http://www.acsc.net/apl/rs6000.htm The Anderson Public Library has an RS6000 that we are interested in selling. This system was purchased from Dynix Library Services in 1991 and has the following features. RS6000 RISC 520/20 processor, AIX 3.3, 2.4Gigs on four drives, 128Meg RAM, 2-64 port controllers, 2.3Gig 8mm Tape, 150MB 1/4 tape, Ethernet High Performance LAN Adapter, IBM Printer 4224, Emerson UPS AP130sb, Muxes, cables and documentation. $4,000 O.B.O. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From nerdware at laidbak.com Wed Jun 24 21:57:08 1998 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (nerdware@laidbak.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: available 8" disks In-Reply-To: <199806221756.AA27234@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199806250254.VAA18231@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:56:23 -0400 Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: available 8" disks > I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several > hundred floppies. > > Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. > > Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. > > Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can > be packed in plastic disk boxes. > > If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. > > Also I have another box load that have programs (orginal disks) of the > likes of deadline, planetffall, Aventure and more. > > Allison Allison, I have a TRS80 M12 with a pair of 8" drives and nothing to feed them with. I'd like a stack.... Let me know. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 24 21:54:26 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... Message-ID: <14141979.3591bbe3@aol.com> there are only two kinds of mac mouses: 9 pin for plus and earlier and adb for se and later models. i've never heard of anything else. as for slow booting, you might want to run disk first aid if you have it on your machine. i think you need to boot off a floppy and run it from there for it to check and fix any problems it finds. those two buttons you found is the programmer's switch. one does a reboot and the other brings you to a system monitor prompt. supposedly useful for those that know what to do. david In a message dated 98-06-24 21:43:32 EDT, megan writes: << Speaking of Mac Mice... At the MIT Flea this past weekend, I picked up a mouse for the Mac Classic I mentioned in other mail... it is the 'original' style of apple mouse. My question is whether this will work correctly with the Mac Classic -- it does seem to plug in, but since I'm not getting much response from the system, I don't know... BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes light grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds and then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this way for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this normal? Have I simply not allowed the system adequate time to boot to a user screen? (I'm used to an RT system which boots in about 30-45 seconds, depending on amount of memory). Also, there are two buttons on the left side of the case... one apparently does the mac equivalent of the three-fingered-salute on PCs... the other one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go away and be replaced by one which lookes the same (banner background) but with a '>' sign... What is this? >> From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jun 24 22:34:37 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Early speech board maker? In-Reply-To: John Foust's message of Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:07:40 -0500 References: <3.0.1.32.19980624210740.00bbee80@pc> Message-ID: <199806250334.UAA24678@daemonweed.reanimators.org> John Foust wrote: > Here's an excerpt of a posting that triggered my IMSAI smart agent. > Does anyone recognize his name, or the company he's describing? > From: Wirt Atmar Yes. Your next step on the road to enlightenment is to webulate to http://www.aics-research.com/history.html and follow the next-page links through to the end. -Frank McConnell From poesie at geocities.com Wed Jun 24 22:16:21 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: CoCo III at garage sale... References: <199806240708.AAA16912@squeep.com> Message-ID: <3591C105.544C@geocities.com> I honestly don't know, I just re-read his post to mn.forsale but it seems that's what he's referring to... although then again, maybe he's just one of the people around here who drink too much beer :P -Eric Seth J. Morabito wrote: > Woah, what's that all about? Something along the lines of "In a dark > future, a lone boy with the power of his trusty TANDY COCO saves the > galaxy from domination by the evil Q'OMMADOR Empire"? :) > > (seriously, does anyone know if the "fiction books" listed actually > refer to CoCo fiction?) > > -Seth > -- > "It looks just like a Telefunken U47! Seth J. Morabito > You'll love it." - Frank Zappa sethm@loomcom.com From poesie at geocities.com Wed Jun 24 22:42:32 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: macs and IDE drives... Message-ID: <3591C728.1AFE@geocities.com> this isn't really "classic" per se, but... I grabbed a performa 636cd, w/ a 500mb ide drive. being curious i ripped out the 1-connector ide cable and connected a 2-connector; the mac ide quantum (which specifically says "apple" on it...) was set as master, and i popped a seagate on as a slave. no boot unless i popped in the mac disk tools. if i take off the 2nd ide drive, it boots. being a total mac idiot, is it even possible to use a ATA ide drive on a mac? or is there something else to this that i'm missing? any help would be gratefully appreciated. thanks. -Eric From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Jun 25 00:19:54 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Mark 8 pc boards Message-ID: <199806250519.WAA17825@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Today I found the company, Techniques, Inc. in Englewood, New Jersey, that made the printed circuit boards for the "Radio Electronics" Mark 8 computer. They are in the same location as in 1973. Afaik, they have no web site or email. I called them to ask if they could look for any material, or any information, like how many board sets were made or sold. I found nothing. They first thought that "Mark 8 microcomputer" was the name of another company. I finally found someone who said the company was bought in 1987, and that all information before then was gone. I've also learned that the printed circuit boards were 2-sided, but had no plated-thru holes. This may have caused problems to IC solder connections, making reliability problems. I don't know if this would make buyers abandon them making the numbers larger or smaller than otherwise. -Dave From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 00:35:28 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980624104432.360f752a@ricochet.net> At 11:11 AM 6/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Robotron is also a video game ca. 1981-2 (Williams, iirc) that was [...] >>each other. Other, similar games included Sinistar (no relation, and don't >>even go there) and one whose name I forgot that had to do with spiders and >What do you mean, there's no relation? They are both William's titles...and Whups... Sorry. I occassionally get sensitive about my last name, and when I was younger, I was the butt of a lot of jokes centered around my name and that game. (Sinasohn, Sinistar.) >Sinistar is the addition of 2 SRAMs, a different interface board (for dual >joysticks), blitter clipper circuit and an additional sound board for Robotron also had dual joysticks, so perhaps that was the same on both games? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 00:35:32 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: new additions, info wanted Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980624120159.376f6352@ricochet.net> At 10:43 PM 6/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >I'll trade it for an Altair and an Apple 1 and most importantly, one of those rare >black AppleIIplus's. Oh sure, I gots lots of those... 8^) >What the heck is a FlatCat (uh oh, me thinks I just set myself up here). Laptop version of the Cat. >It doesn't have cursor keys, or a pointing device. It uses these two 'leap' keys Yeah, that's it. Pretty cool. >Let me know when you get the Apple 1 and I'll dig the Cat out and send it to >you :) Ummm,, you don't mind if there's a little bit of white-out spilled next to where it says "Apple ]" do you? 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 00:35:42 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980624160316.36e78af6@ricochet.net> At 02:34 PM 6/23/98 PDT, you wrote: >A Mac II is a 68020 or higher machine, the descendant of regular macs. >Video was on an expansion card. 5 NuBus slots, I think. Room for two >hard drives and two floppy drives (If you could ship me the ROM and RAM Actually, room for 2 floppies and 1 hard drive, either 3.5" or 5.25" half-height. (I suppose, if you were really creative, you could mount a 3.5" hd where the second floppy went, but you might have power problems.) Drives were mounted on a metal platform above the HD. Had 8 30-pin SIMM slots; not sure what (if any) the max RAM was. Standard was probably 4Meg. >Other models in this series were: Mac IIx - 68030? Mac IIfx Mac IIvx (iirc) All shared the larger, almost pc-like box. Pop-off top to the case, making it easy to get inside, but you needed a special bracket to mount the hard drive on (which then was mounted to the platform.) >Mac IIci - Narrower case with one space for HDD, one for FDD, three >slots, video on the board Probably my favorite Mac case. Similar but different. About 2/3 the width of the II. Drives are now stacked, with the Hard Drive simply snapping into the case (once you put it in its custom carrier.) Memory is easy to get at, still had 3 expansion slots. 68030 at 33mhz, on-board video. IIcx used the same case (same, but no video, maybe slower CPU?) >Mac IIsi - Same, but a more modern case Slimmer case, slightly slower than the IIci (20mhz?). Similar to the LC models. One non-nubus slot; adapters were available. >>place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet If anyone's interested, I'll be bringing some mac II cases (with M/B & P/S, but won't boot (prolly dead battery)) to VCF 2.0 to sell or trade. They're machines that I got for Rachel's classroom, that I scrounged for parts. She's getting tired of having a stack of mac's in her basement all the time. (And if I get rid of those, plus some huge monitors she can't use, she can store the computers from school at her place over the summer instead of at my place.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 00:35:47 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980624165021.36e70be2@ricochet.net> At 02:40 PM 6/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >about it. But we invest time and money and passion into this hobby, and I >don't think its wrong to take advantage of a good deal when one comes In the long run, it probably offsets the times we spend more than we should to make sure something important isn't destroyed (including paying for storage units, etc.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From poesie at geocities.com Wed Jun 24 23:45:47 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. Message-ID: <3591D5FB.1EDA@geocities.com> Does anyone on the list collect NeXT systems? I had the chance to see one the other day and now I am hooked... but they wanted 500 bucks for a 33mhz turbo color cube (IIRC...) w/ a 21" sony monitor. in any case, (and i realize i'm stepping in a big heaping pile here) what's a reasonable cost for these systems? after using afterstep for linux, i would love to use nextstep and use the real thing. -Eric From rax at warbaby.com Thu Jun 25 02:27:08 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:48 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: <14141979.3591bbe3@aol.com> Message-ID: > Also, there are two buttons on the left side of the case... one apparently > does the mac equivalent of the three-fingered-salute on PCs... the other > one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go away and be replaced > by one which lookes the same (banner background) but with a '>' sign... > > What is this? > >> The first button restarts the Mac if it freezes. The other is called a "programmers switch" and gives you the chance to type in some code that will unfreeze it long enough to save your work before restarting. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. For me, mostly it doesn't. Try typing one of the following, followed by the return key: g finder or SM 0 A94F or PCFA700 or SM A78 3F3C 002 A895 (the round characters are zeros, not O's) -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 25 02:35:24 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <3591D5FB.1EDA@geocities.com> from "Poesie" at Jun 24, 98 11:45:47 pm Message-ID: <199806250735.AAA18821@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2323 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/892e9003/attachment.ksh From franke at sbs.de Thu Jun 25 05:55:58 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: macs and IDE drives... Message-ID: <199806250843.KAA01486@marina.fth.sbs.de> > this isn't really "classic" per se, but... It's the classic Mac-IDE question. And the answer is simple no. > I grabbed a performa 636cd, w/ a 500mb ide drive. being curious i > ripped out the 1-connector ide cable and connected a 2-connector; the > mac ide quantum (which specifically says "apple" on it...) was set as > master, and i popped a seagate on as a slave. no boot unless i popped in > the mac disk tools. if i take off the 2nd ide drive, it boots. being a > total mac idiot, is it even possible to use a ATA ide drive on a mac? or > is there something else to this that i'm missing? any help would be > gratefully appreciated. thanks. Yes_and_no to all questions. It's just that Apple only suports one _one_ IDE drive. Almost any drive work correctly, but you need third party setup software like HDT. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jun 25 04:36:31 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980625053312.006af058@netpath.net> At 10:54 PM 6/24/98 EDT, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >there are only two kinds of mac mouses: 9 pin for plus and earlier and adb for >se and later models. i've never heard of anything else. as for slow booting, Offtopic by about 10 years: We just got in a Motorola 603e StarMax mac clone a few months ago at work. I loved this machine! It had both ADB connectors AND PS/2 style connectors. It also had a standard DB25 serial port connector on it. IMHO, this would have been a good step for Apple to make say about 5 or 6 years ago. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jun 25 04:43:19 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980625054236.006af024@netpath.net> At 12:35 AM 6/25/98 -0500, Uncle Roger wrote: >Mac IIx - 68030? >Mac IIfx >Mac IIvx (iirc) I'm not sure about the IIvx either, but I do have a Mac IIx sitting here. Main difference was just a little boost on the proc speed over the Mac II. Question: Will any nubus card work in any mac with a nubus slot? (I'm talking standard form, one piece card, not the little two piece connected jobbies found on the SI/LC etc.) - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From franke at sbs.de Thu Jun 25 07:27:59 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... Message-ID: <199806251015.MAA10675@marina.fth.sbs.de> > >there are only two kinds of mac mouses: 9 pin for plus and earlier and adb > for > >se and later models. i've never heard of anything else. as for slow booting, > Offtopic by about 10 years: > We just got in a Motorola 603e StarMax mac clone a few months ago at work. > I loved this machine! It had both ADB connectors AND PS/2 style connectors. > It also had a standard DB25 serial port connector on it. IMHO, this would > have been a good step for Apple to make say about 5 or 6 years ago. Apple is just doing this step in a far better direction: They change to USB (at least thats what they told us at WWDC) and the iMac is the first to excange ADB for USB. Not using PS/2 wasn't so bad at all - ADB is a lot more convienient since I connect the mouse to the kbd nut the cpu. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Jun 25 07:36:26 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <199806251023.MAA11476@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>It certainly has been (and will continue to be) for me... >>But seriously, since my workshop isn't open to the public, and almost >>nobody knows who I am, where should %random_person go to find out >>about real front panels, forerunners of Windows, etc. If not a science >>museum, then where? > The local public library. Get a comfy chair, sit in front of the > terminal, call up lynx, get a hotmail account, and subscribe to the > mailing list. Of course, if the library has some back issues of computer > magazines or computer history books, those never hurt either ;) A museum > is generally considered to be a 'fun place' and though it is possible > to learn quite a bit, they can't beat reading a good book (though they > are a visual compendium). Hmm I think you should come to Munich and visit the Deutsches Museum. A slow walk thru the chemical section (for example) could tell you the same story than a book, but you will also _see_ whats hapening when two chemicals mix up. You still have to read - there is plenty of text ro read - sometimes the equivalent of 5 or 6 book pages only for one show case, and ar far as I remember the chemical section has more than 100 of this hands on cases. Shure, tunning thru and press every butten wont result in any information - but just browsing thru a chemical book either. > BTW, the Boston Computer Museum has a very > good history section. Books like 'A Secret Guide To Computers' also > educate quite a bit. Lastly, since you're so worried about this (we all > are, I hope) why not just write a book? :) - Hereby I oder one copy. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Thu Jun 25 07:54:44 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <199806251041.MAA13570@marina.fth.sbs.de> > Now, I've found 9tack tape to be _very_ reliable, second only to paper > tape. Certainly a lot more reliable than EPROMs, PROMs, etc. If kept in proper environment. >> I had even new taps failing to record. > Good, branded tapes, or just random cheap ones? Branded - a pcs at 140 USD. > The other thing is, nobody has said that you only keep one backup, right? :) > Keep the original EPROM, in use, and hope you don't need a backup Shure thats why I have them - Backup isn't the bussines it's the tool. > Keep a copy on your PC's hard disk, for looking at, and for burning an > EPROM from if your screwdriver slips and applies 12V to the Vcc pin of > the EPROM... I still use an 8085 systems for the EPROM thing :) > Keep a copy on floppy disk or PC streamer tape, just in case you delete > the wrong file > Keep a copy on paper tape in case all else fails. > And keep a copy on CD-R, 9-track, Zip, etc. Whatever else you can store > it on. The more copies you have, the more likely one will be readable in > the future. :) >>>> And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. >>>> Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. >>> Oh, I don't know. I've managed to play 1960's reel-to-reel audio tapes >>> (and early 19790's video tapes, reel and cassette) with no real >>> problems. If you pick a suitably redundant format for the data I suspect >>> it'll be OK. >> Managed to play and recovering all information are >> different things. > Yes, but > (a) you'd use a partially redundant encoding system (I _know_ I > would) so you could recover partially damaged data. > (b) 'damage' that affects audio or video recordings may not have much > effect on data (and vice versa). For example minor print-through would > certainly be audible, but it might be possible to set the read thresholds > so a digital tape drive wouldn't notice it. Ditto for fading. On the > other hand drop-outs have a much greater effect on digital data than on > audio or video recordings. true. >> And back to CDs (to reunite the two threads): >> Theres a huge difference between your listed magnetic things >> and CDs - the music sector - I bet any summ you want that >> there will be new drives in 20 years from now, able to read >> a CD made today (if the CD contend isn't damaged of course). > Firstly a CD player is not that easy to convert into a CD-ROM drive. My > CD-ROM drive _is_ based on a CD-player, and I have the service manuals > both for the CD-ROM drive and the player. The mods are not that simple. I'm not talking about converting - I'm talking that in 25 years still new drives will be available to read CDs - Maybe some kind of hyper-DVD-super-ultra drives - but able to read 'regular' CDs. > Secondly, where do I get a 78rpm record player these days (new, of > course). Or a Playtape player. Or an 8-track cartridge player. Music > formats do go out of production as well. Stop. 8-track - or what ever special formates beside regular phonographic disks had always only a special small ocurence - like ZIP drives, or almost any old media on computers beside mybe tapes. For 78rpm players you should take a look at a shop for analogue enthusiasts - there are still _new_ players available - ok, I don't know if they sell more than 100 pcs a year word wide, but they are available - and for 33/45rpm players, almost any audio store still has at least one _new_ model to offer. Even Quelle (big mail order company in Germany) still offers players. And now it's almost 20 years after the CD. Again, I give no chance for special devices and solution, but I think there will be new CD Players even in 25 years - I am shure ther will - I bet any money you want - or wait - I what about my Pascal Microengine ? You'll get it if there is no new, working, CD reading device availabe in 2023 :) Servus hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From kroma at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 25 05:56:08 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... Message-ID: <00b601bda027$dd4cab80$b186440c@kroma-i> >>Subject: UCSD Pascal >> >>Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >>out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch stuff, >>old tapes, etc. which were trashed because no one wanted them. I'll look >>around here and see if there's anything left. > OH MY GOD, THEY KILLED KENNY!!! YOU BASTARDS!!! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 25 08:05:56 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: available 8" disks In-Reply-To: <199806250254.VAA18231@garcon.laidbak.com> from "nerdware@laidbak.com" at Jun 24, 98 09:57:08 pm Message-ID: <9806251205.AA19565@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 246 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/e314fb4d/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 25 09:05:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Mark 8 pc boards Message-ID: <199806251405.AA15844@world.std.com> <> Firstly a CD player is not that easy to convert into a CD-ROM drive. My <> CD-ROM drive _is_ based on a CD-player, and I have the service manuals <> both for the CD-ROM drive and the player. The mods are not that simple < Secondly, where do I get a 78rpm record player these days (new, of <> course). Or a Playtape player. Or an 8-track cartridge player. Music <> formats do go out of production as well. Some do some don't and a few are easy to make. a player for 78rpm disks would be pretty trivial. Certain tape formats are fairly easy like 800/1600 bpi magtape. Message-ID: > I found this on another list I'm on. Is this of any interest to anyone > here? > $4,000 O.B.O. They are nuts if they think they can get this much. Hell, for $3000, I sell you a 930! Or you can just wait until someone gives you an first generation RS/6000... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Thu Jun 25 09:23:07 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806251406.AA16667@world.std.com> Message-ID: > That may be longer than reasonable... I'd use say writable CDrom > and if 9 years from now the ability to read that start getting scarce > I'd use the next technology that is current then and copy to that. > This would allow reading using available technology and also insure the > data was fresh. It is an excellent idea to keep checking on the archives. > FYI: checksums and various other means can be used to > insure a file has not been compromized and also make recovery possible. CD-ROMs already have an huge amount of error detection and correction codes built in. The overhead they take up is quite large, far more than SECDED, normally used on workstations, minis, mainframes. Adding more would not hurt, but probably would not help much either. William Donzelli william@ans.net From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 09:25:07 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate Message-ID: <19980625142507.16593.qmail@hotmail.com> GOD this is a long thread! >Well, considering the reason that I started collection computers 12 >years ago was so that people would have the chance to use >frontpanels, paper tape, punched cards etc in he future, I might do >that sometime. Problem is it would take a lot of work, and I doubt if >anyone would buy it. > >-tony Why not? The Soul of a New Machine, Insanely Great, and Hackers seemed to do just fine, to name a few. I don't mean an encyclopedia, but a bunch of stories about the design of stuff (i.e. a chapter on how Multics was made, a chapter on how the Apple arose, a chapter on where the ENIAC came from,etc.). It seems that people can only read things like this if they are made about people rather than, "The idea began slowly to take shape that instead of using a two-stage adder it would be easier to use a shift register. This was to come up later when..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From william at ans.net Thu Jun 25 09:27:08 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Remeber you'd have to make some changes to the tracking servo to allow the > computer to go to a particular block on the disk. I was thinking of simply reading the whole disk, as if you were going to transfer its contents onto a more modern media. If it does get to the point that CD-ROM drives in working condition are indeed rare things, it is time to move to another format. > Now that CD players are becoming cheap, it's getting increasingly hard to > get real service data on them. And that's what you'd need to modify one > into a CD-ROM drive. The servo systems in those things are dead stupid, and should not really cause many problems reverse engineering those bits. William Donzelli william@ans.net From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jun 25 10:06:18 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... Message-ID: <003601bda04a$d3a26020$1767bcc1@hotze> Ha. You think that you're funny, don't you? At my ex-school, I fount 30(!) Apple ][GS's, a ][C, A WHOLE BUNCH of books, around 250 disks, lots of lab interface software, Grapler interfaces, etc. Pretty cool. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: kroma To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... > >>>Subject: UCSD Pascal >>> >>>Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >>>out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch stuff, >>>old tapes, etc. which were trashed because no one wanted them. I'll look >>>around here and see if there's anything left. >> > > > >OH MY GOD, THEY KILLED KENNY!!! YOU BASTARDS!!! > > > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 10:12:44 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... Message-ID: <19980625151245.5190.qmail@hotmail.com> >BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the >smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes >light grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds >and then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this >way for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this >normal? Definitely not. Try starting with extensions off (hold down the shift key up until it shows that screen). Normal boot on a Classic should be under a minute. >Also, there are two buttons on the left side of the case... one >apparently does the mac equivalent of the three-fingered-salute on >PCs... the other one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go >away and be replaced by one which lookes the same (banner background) >but with a '>' sign... > >What is this? > You're right about the salute, the second one is a debug button. The > sign is a prompt, at which you can look at memory and stuff. Typing 'G FIND' will jump to the finder if it is running, which it isn't yet on your system. The finder is a shell like command.com. It is completely modular and can be replaced by another program, though not common. BTW, how much did you pay for it? > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | >| Digital Equipment Corporation | | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 10:32:44 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Zuse Message-ID: <19980625153244.16940.qmail@hotmail.com> Since we were recently discussing the first computer, I wondered, if the Zuse was "first", then what is the ENIAC famous for? Also, has anyone seen any kind of in-depth description of either? I mean, what exactly could the ENIAC do? Has anyone seen diagrams? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 25 11:59:24 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Early speech board maker? In-Reply-To: <5289@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806251603.LAA01014@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > A year or two earlier, Texas Instruments got into speech synthesis in a big > way using a technique halfway between digitized speech and speech > synthesis, a > process that might now be called "smoothed sampling". It worked much better > than true synthesis in that its intelligiblity was quite good. Because of > that, TI was able to sell a variety of manufacturers on the idea of having > talking washing machines, microwave ovens, vaccuum cleaners, etc. The most > expensive of these talking machines was the Chrysler LeBaron automobile > -- and > people (the end-users, not the engineers) found all of this incredibly > irritating. The single most requested option on the LeBaron, by far and > away, > was to have the speech generator deleted. > > Talking appliances were a technological fad that lasted only about three > years, 1979-1982. /NOSTALGIA = ON Wow, this brings back a funny (well to me, anyway) memory. In 1983, I used to service two way mobile radios for a Motorola Service Center in Los Angeles. Typically, the customer would bring in his car, explain the problem, and then wait in the lounge whil I worked on it. One day, this guy comes in with this big, shiny new luxury car (well, maybe it was a Buick? Chrysler? anyway . .), with a broken two-way. I'm sitting next to him in the front seat, and he's trying to explain the trouble. The whole time, the car is saying <>, <> . . . in a decidedly mechanical pseudo-woman's voice. The guy gets pissed, and angrily jerks the key out of the ignition (shutting up the robot), and continues to tell me how he can't talk to his dispatcher . . . An hour goes by, and I replace a bad antenna and feed line, and clamp down the BIG +12v lead, and so on. I start the engine, the radio works ok, so I kill it, and head for the lounge where the customer is waiting. We step outside, I explain the work I did, and he signs the invoice. As he turns towards the car, he asks me where are his keys. Using the best mechanical voice I could muster I replied: <>, <> . . . /NOSTALGIA = OFF Well, it was funny at the time. You really had to have been there . . . Jeff +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 25 12:01:40 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Convergent Miscellany In-Reply-To: <5225@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806251605.LAA01022@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > > > > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > > > OKay, so what happened to the source for CTIX? Did it vanish? Who > > > does it belong to? WHo do you think I belongs to? > > > > I think it belongs to Unisys. They own the trademark, anyway (through > > their acquisition of Convergent). > > That is the legal situation. I know where I last _saw_ a copy of the > source for version 3.51 for the Unix PC (and a copy of the source for > what would have been next, equivalent to SysVR3) , never made it to > SQA), but I haven't been able to contact him in a couple of years of ^^^ What's his name? Where does he live? We can try 4-11. > trying. (CTIX for the regular machines _did_ reach SysVR3 in > production, but that was after the Unix PC was history). > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ Jeff +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From rax at warbaby.com Thu Jun 25 12:17:43 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <3591D5FB.1EDA@geocities.com> Message-ID: >Does anyone on the list collect NeXT systems? I had the chance to see >one the other day and now I am hooked... but they wanted 500 bucks for a >33mhz turbo color cube (IIRC...) w/ a 21" sony monitor. in any case, >(and i realize i'm stepping in a big heaping pile here) what's a >reasonable cost for these systems? after using afterstep for linux, i >would love to use nextstep and use the real thing. > >-Eric Smokin' deal - jump on it. If you decide later that you don't want it, I'll be happy to take it off your hands. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From rax at warbaby.com Thu Jun 25 12:32:35 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980624160316.36e78af6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Uncle R. wrote: >>Other models in this series were: > >Mac IIx - 68030? >Mac IIfx >Mac IIvx (iirc) > The IIVX was/is a great machine - and one of Apple's really big marketing mistakes. When it came out, it was their fastest, top of the midrange machine and sold for about four grand. A couple of months or so later, the slashed the price in half, thoroughly pissing off everybody who bought one for the original price. Fortunately I waited and bought mine for about $1800 (I still have it, being one of those fools who never gets rid of a working piece of gear - I keep it around as a backup in case my PowerMac goes belly-up in the midst of a job. Of course, I still have my Selectric in case the IIVX also dies, a manual typewriter in case there's no power, and a good supply of pencils and paper in case all else fails...). The one drawback to the IIVX was that all four simm slots had to have matching simms, so upgrading RAM was an expensive proposition. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From red at bears.org Thu Jun 25 11:28:16 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <3591D5FB.1EDA@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Poesie wrote: > Does anyone on the list collect NeXT systems? I had the chance to see > one the other day and now I am hooked... but they wanted 500 bucks for a > 33mhz turbo color cube (IIRC...) w/ a 21" sony monitor. in any case, I have a couple of NeXT machines and also use NEXTSTEP daily on my pentium system. If it's actually a cube system, and has actual colour video, $500 is a very good price for it for the reasons mentioned in other messages. The NeXTdimension is a very cool piece of hardware. Truecolour DPS engine (the Turbocolour stations were only 12-bit colour), composite and S-Video in/out, onboard i860 processor with up to 128 MB of its own RAM, installable in matched sets of four 72 pin non-parity page mode SIMMs. > reasonable cost for these systems? after using afterstep for linux, i > would love to use nextstep and use the real thing. Afterstep is a sad joke compared to the real thing. (: After having used NEXTSTEP as my primary OS for several years, I can confidently say that I have yet to be frustrated by its UI. And that's not something I can say of anything else I've used. And I've spent time on a LOT of UIs. NEXTSTEP was introduced in 1988; version 3.0 in 1993 brought support for Intel processors. Later sub-releases brought support for SPARC and HP PA-RISC as well. The UI has remained more-or-less the same since its introduction. The addition of colour came as a patch for 2.1. ok r. From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Thu Jun 25 11:38:14 1998 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...) Message-ID: <2327BA14CB4@orchid.le.ac.uk> Megan Gentry wrote: > >BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the > >smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes >light > grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds >and > then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this >way > for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this >normal? The Mac Classic contains a complete System 6 installation in ROM that you can boot from. Sorry but I don't have the docs handy, but I think if you press Command-Option-Shift-X on startup, it'll boot from the ROM. Another way that should work is Command-Option-Shift-Backspace -- this key combination should work on any SCSI capable Mac to supress booting from the default SCSI boot device. Once you've booted, you'll need to scrounge a copy of Disk First Aid or a third party utility to check the hard disk. Do you have system install disks etc for the machine? Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 25 11:36:19 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... In-Reply-To: <003601bda04a$d3a26020$1767bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980625113619.00cc0b60@pc> kroma wrote: >>>> >>>>Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >>>>out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch >> >>OH MY GOD, THEY KILLED KENNY!!! YOU BASTARDS!!! At 06:06 PM 6/25/98 +0300, Hotze wrote: >Ha. You think that you're funny, don't you? Well, even I laughed. Ken's not dead, though. He's at . - John Jefferson Computer Museum From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 25 11:38:24 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Old computer books In-Reply-To: <19980625142507.16593.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980625113824.00bb4c30@pc> At 07:25 AM 6/25/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: >Why not? The Soul of a New Machine, Insanely Great, and Hackers seemed >to do just fine, to name a few. I don't mean an encyclopedia, but a >bunch of stories about the design of stuff (i.e. a chapter on how >Multics was made, a chapter on how the Apple arose, a chapter on where >the ENIAC came from,etc.). Once upon a time when I was in the thick of it, I thought about writing a book about the history of the Amiga, where even from the early days it clear the machine had strengths beyond the more popular computers of the time, and that it was swimming against the current. The problem in my mind was that there was no guiding thread, no "hook", no core story, no moral or lesson - just fumbling computer companies, insane investors, inept marketroids, crazy genius types, etc. Is this interesting enough, or just interesting to Amiga-heads? I knew other people who thought about writing a book like this who had similar concern about lack of focus, about how to make the story interesting enough for someone who wasn't personally involved in some aspect of it. One clarifying thought was inspired by the drunken ramblings of an Amiga dealer during the last days at a NewTek party, who said "It's like we were from five years in the future, and we had television, and we were trying to explain it to people who'd only seen a radio. Radio with pictures? Who wants that?" There's another lesson to be told about the tendency of techies to believe that technical excellence should always Win, but it rarely does. Then again, maybe these sorts of Valley stories rarely have a point. :-) - John From maynard at jmg.com Thu Jun 25 11:25:28 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:17:43 -0800." Message-ID: <199806251725.NAA00077@mr-gateway.internal.net> Agreed. That is a _very_ good deal. The big difference between the cube and the slab is that the cube incorporates a DSP on the motherboard while the slab does not. The cube also has a backplane which supports up to four cards, one of which is the main CPU board. In the case of the color cube, another is used for the 32 bit color card (assuming you're getting a NeXT dimension board with the cube). With a minor hack one can even install multiple cpu cards into the cube chassis, network them together, and then boot each card as a separate host. Pretty slick. see: http://www.imo.physik.uni-muenchen.de/~heller/NeXT/NeXT.html For folks wondering why I haven't been involved with the list much lately... I've been dealing with a family illness and just don't have much time. I do read messages every now and then, so I haven't forgotten about classiccmp, I just have pressing responsibilities. BTW: Russ! I just got the C64 you shipped me months back working. I found a C64 Programmers reference with schematics at the MIT flea which helped out tremendously. Pretty Cool! --jmg > >Does anyone on the list collect NeXT systems? I had the chance to see > >one the other day and now I am hooked... but they wanted 500 bucks for a > >33mhz turbo color cube (IIRC...) w/ a 21" sony monitor. in any case, > >(and i realize i'm stepping in a big heaping pile here) what's a > >reasonable cost for these systems? after using afterstep for linux, i > >would love to use nextstep and use the real thing. > > > >-Eric > > Smokin' deal - jump on it. If you decide later that you don't want it, I'll > be happy to take it off your hands. > > R. > > -- > > > > Warbaby > The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. > http://www.warbaby.com > > The MonkeyPool > WebSite Content Development > http://www.monkeypool.com > > Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. > > > > From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Thu Jun 25 11:50:57 1998 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) Message-ID: <232B1D85DFE@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 25 Jun 98 at 5:43, John Higginbotham wrote: > >Mac IIx - 68030? > >Mac IIfx > >Mac IIvx (iirc) You've missed out the IIvi as well. For information about Mac specs, there's a great free utility called GURU from Newer Technology at http://www.newertech.com > I'm not sure about the IIvx either, but I do have a Mac IIx sitting here. > Main difference was just a little boost on the proc speed over the Mac II. The Mac II is a fairly lame 68020 system (no fpu, no pmmu) while the IIX (same as IIcx but different form) is a very usable 68030. > Question: Will any nubus card work in any mac with a nubus slot? (I'm > talking standard form, one piece card, not the little two piece connected > jobbies found on the SI/LC etc.) Yes/No. Size can be a problem. Older cards were often full size and won't fit in a IIsi or later system. Hi res graphics cards from people like SuperMac, Radius, RasterOps etc were always temperamental and are often reliant on OS versions and card ROMs. It is unlikely for example that a graphics card from a 68030 would work in a NuBus equipped PowerMac. Lots of people ditched quite expensive graphics cards because the manufacturers demand(ed) so much for ROM upgrades. Accelerator cards, which tend to be full size, can cause timing problems (eg Radius Rocket which is incompatible with AROSE, the system software that arbitrates between NuBus slots!). Ethernet cards would be a safe bet but the rarer stuff (GPIB, video image grabbers etc) would guarantee interesting times... Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From red at bears.org Thu Jun 25 12:02:47 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <199806251725.NAA00077@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > Agreed. That is a _very_ good deal. The big difference between the > cube and the slab is that the cube incorporates a DSP on the motherboard > while the slab does not. Wrong. All M68k NeXT hardware has a Motorola 56000 DSP onboard. The primary differences between the Cube and Slab is that the cube has a NeXTbus (Nubus-89 derivative) and support for the Canon optical disk drive. What the cube incorporates that the slab does not is the NeXTbus Interface Chip (NBIC). ok r. From peacock at simconv.com Thu Jun 25 12:20:29 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: IBM RS6000 for sale Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E950@mail.simconv.com> > I found this on another list I'm on. Is this of any interest to anyone here? $4,000 O.B.O. Or you can just wait until someone gives you an first generation RS/6000... > At work we have an old RS/6000 320H (25Mhz, 1st generation) sitting in a corner, not used anymore as all our customers have replaced AIX with SCO on a P II. Boss asked me last week if we could do something with it, now I have an answer.... store it for a few more years then sell it as a collectible classic, maybe we'll get more for it than we paid new. :) Jack Peacock From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 12:27:23 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Coco Question Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980625092026.43c7534e@ricochet.net> Picked up a cartridge for the Coco t'other day, and I'm not sure what it is. It says "Cat. No. 26-3129" and "Color Computer Controller" on it. Has the card-edge connector where it plugs in, then another, smaller one on the back end. My guess is it's a floppy controller? Also, does anyone know what happened to Roger Merchberger? Seems to have disappeared. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 12:27:26 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Xerox Daybreak Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980625093412.43c7a24c@ricochet.net> At 10:07 AM 6/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >The Star presentation was certainly well attended -- it was packed to >overflowing! I was out in the lobby watching the presentation on a When we got there, the guard was (rather ineffectively) trying to turn people away. We slipped past after I mumbled something about trying to find some friends. The guard said the demo was originally scheduled for a room that could handle 100 people. His estimate was that there was at least 700 people there, but I don't think he was counting the cafeteria in that estimate. >Uncle Roger tried to make me hold up a classiccmp sign, I tried [...] > and date as Roger now wants to check and see whether his tap > dancing lessons collide. Oh, sure, make me sound like a complete weirdo. (Yes, I know it's true, but you don't have to tell everybody. 8^) Btw, tap class is Fridays at 7, so Thursdays are good. >(c) So...fine, here's a time and place for all us Bay Areans to > argue over: Second Thursday, 09 July 1998, 7:00 PM, El Paso Cafe, > 1407 W El Camino Real, Mountain View. Y'all can flame me about Can't guarantee I'll be there, but it sounds good in theory. btw, Bruce Lane (iirc -- I'm lousy at names and don't pay too much attention to headers & .sigs anyway) will be in town (SF) soon, if y'all wanna try and coordinate something. (Also a visit to HMR is in order.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 12:27:30 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Xerox Daybreak Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980625093524.43c70b14@ricochet.net> At 12:32 PM 6/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >I don't suppose that anyone (Xerox?) taped this presentation did they? I know I >would love to see the demo and wouldn't mind paying to get a copy. The guard I talked to said tapes would be available for $50/copy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 12:27:38 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Pet 2001 Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980625100950.460f47d8@ricochet.net> Got a call from a woman with a Pet 2001 here in the bay area (east bay, actually) plus some sloppy drives and such. Please give her a call if you're interested. Her name is Asale Kimaada (Pronounced Uh-saw-luh Kih-mah-duh) and her phone is 1-925-606-7239. She's looking for an honest offer. She doesn't know what it's worth, (neither do I) but doesn't want to be cheated. She apparently gets a lot of older stuff in, so being fair would be good in the long run. btw, she was at last year's VCF; she was near the exhibits on the left side (looking towards the exhibits) iirc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 12:27:41 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980625101605.3ed74454@ricochet.net> At 09:42 PM 6/24/98 -0400, you wrote: >'original' style of apple mouse. My question is whether this will work DE-9 connector? Won't work with the classic. Ya need on with a round, 4-pin connector, about the size of a PS/2 keyboard connector. >BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the smiley >disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes light grey with >a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds and then I get the >'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. So far so good. Sounds like the machine works. >This remains this way for as much as 10 >minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this normal? Have I simply not Not normal at all. Most likely, you have a drive with a missing or incomplete operating system on it. Your best bet is to find a local Mac user group (or friendly mac user) and get them to make a copy of the OS disks (v. 7.0 or 6.0.8). You can then boot from those disks and reinstall the OS. >allowed the system adequate time to boot to a user screen? (I'm used to >an RT system which boots in about 30-45 seconds, depending on amount of >memory). The Mac should do about the same, again depending on the amount of memory and the number of plug-ins it loads. >one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go away and be replaced >by one which lookes the same (banner background) but with a '>' sign... Debugger. Dunno any more than that, I'm an applications programmer. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 12:27:45 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: CoCo III at garage sale... Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980625102336.3ed7b506@ricochet.net> At 10:16 PM 6/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Woah, what's that all about? Something along the lines of "In a dark >> future, a lone boy with the power of his trusty TANDY COCO saves the >> galaxy from domination by the evil Q'OMMADOR Empire"? :) Probably interactive fiction ala Zork etc. (Or possibly the kind where you read a page, then at the bottom it says "If you try to negotiate with the Q'Ommador Mneflug, turn to page 138. If you try to kill the Mneflug with your Quoxicalt, turn to page 47. If you turn and run while waving your appendages wildly, turn to page 302.") --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 12:27:48 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980625102843.3ed76fdc@ricochet.net> At 05:43 AM 6/25/98 -0400, you wrote: >Question: Will any nubus card work in any mac with a nubus slot? (I'm >talking standard form, one piece card, not the little two piece connected >jobbies found on the SI/LC etc.) Probably not. Obvious exapmle: a 68030 upgrade board probably wouldn't be all that great in a 68030+ based mac. Other than stuff like that, though, I think yes, NuBus is supposed to be pretty standard. (And yes, you can put in multiple video cards and use multiple monitors for that starship effect.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From william at ans.net Thu Jun 25 12:30:18 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: IBM RS6000 for sale In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E950@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: > At work we have an old RS/6000 320H (25Mhz, 1st generation) sitting in a > corner, not used anymore as all our customers have replaced AIX with SCO > on a P II. Boss asked me last week if we could do something with it, > now I have an answer.... > store it for a few more years then sell it as a collectible classic, > maybe we'll get more for it than we paid new. :) The 320H is a decent machine (unlike the 220 dog), but lacks a ethernet port. Like most RS/6000s, it has screaming floating point, and can use XGA (a bit more tube freindly than other workstations). William Donzelli william@ans.net From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 25 12:59:43 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: available 8" disks In-Reply-To: <9806251205.AA19565@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I have a TRS80 M12 with a pair of 8" drives and nothing to feed them with. I'd > > like a stack.... > > > > Let me know. Thanks. > > Why are folks scrounging on this list for blank 8" floppies when they are so > readily available by mail order? I'd guess lack of information and price, Tim. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 25 13:04:08 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Mark 8 pc boards In-Reply-To: <199806251405.AA15844@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Not a problem. The trick was to solder both sides ot use through wires > as needed. It made the board much cheaper and buildable by home brewers. And that approach is cheaper and easier than the tubular rivet that preceded plated through holes - if you could even find such today :) - don From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Jun 25 13:45:45 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... Message-ID: <001001bda069$7c613ec0$606fbcc1@hotze> I would honestly LOVE to visit that web site, but my proxy denies fulfilling the request. Like it's got sensitive info. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 7:40 PM Subject: Re: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... >kroma wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >>>>>out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch >>> >>>OH MY GOD, THEY KILLED KENNY!!! YOU BASTARDS!!! > >At 06:06 PM 6/25/98 +0300, Hotze wrote: >>Ha. You think that you're funny, don't you? > >Well, even I laughed. Ken's not dead, though. He's at >. > >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Jun 25 13:58:35 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: <199806250142.AA23694@world.std.com> Message-ID: <13366667690.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [One button gets a > prompt...] It's the Mac's version of ODT. It's a debugger. That's all I know about it. ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 25 14:00:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: available 8" disks Message-ID: <199806251900.AA17102@world.std.com> <> Why are folks scrounging on this list for blank 8" floppies when they a <> readily available by mail order? < Message-ID: <35928C37.66A5@geocities.com> I had a 1982 nissan maxima that had a broken voice box, and the on/off switch for the voice was toasted too... opening the door, leaving the lights on, etc... would result in "The key/is on/are open". hilarious. > One day, this guy comes in with this big, shiny new luxury car (well, > maybe it was a Buick? Chrysler? anyway . .), with a broken two-way. > I'm sitting next to him in the front seat, and he's trying to explain > the trouble. The whole time, the car is saying < IGNITION>>, <> . . . in a decidedly > mechanical pseudo-woman's voice. > From poesie at geocities.com Thu Jun 25 12:44:48 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: CoCo III at garage sale...] Message-ID: <35928C90.1828@geocities.com> An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 2025 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/c2d3c0c2/attachment.mht From rax at warbaby.com Thu Jun 25 15:23:34 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Zuse In-Reply-To: <19980625153244.16940.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Max wondered: >Since we were recently discussing the first computer, I wondered, if the >Zuse was "first", then what is the ENIAC famous for? It's main use was calculating ballistics tables for artillery. If anyone really cares, I could explain it in detail - but it's pretty boring stuff. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From ddameron at earthlink.net Thu Jun 25 14:52:35 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Mark 8 pc boards Message-ID: <199806251952.MAA10738@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> At 11:04 AM 6/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> > > > > >> Not a problem. The trick was to solder both sides ot use through wires >> as needed. It made the board much cheaper and buildable by home brewers. > >And that approach is cheaper and easier than the tubular rivet that >preceded plated through holes - if you could even find such today :) > Yes, using wires as jumpers is good too. I'm amazed in TV sets, stereos, etc. most all the printed circuit boards are one sided. The problem I saw was with the actual IC pins. Sockets would make it worse. If you don't plan ahead, there might be not enough lead to solder to on the component side of some disk capacitors (resistors mounted on end?), etc. -Dave From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 14:53:08 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Old computer books Message-ID: <19980625195308.20437.qmail@hotmail.com> >The problem in my mind was that there was no guiding thread, no >hook", no core story, no moral or lesson - just fumbling computer >companies, insane investors, inept marketroids, crazy genius types, >etc. Is this interesting enough, or just interesting to Amiga-heads? The former. I can read commodore anecdotes for hours and never get tired. One of my favorites is that they drilled circuit boards (some early machine) to prevent people from putting their own upgrade chips in (rather than have the dealer do it), and it cost them more to do this than the cost of the actual chip. I mean, there does have to be some tie-together, but it's always there if one has a lot of information. Here's one: Capitalism, the abode of stupidity, is the crematorium of ingenuity and creativity. Just off the top of my head. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 25 15:03:10 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Old computer books Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980625150310.00cb3100@pc> At 12:53 PM 6/25/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: > >Here's one: Capitalism, the abode of stupidity, is the crematorium of >ingenuity and creativity. Just off the top of my head. Yuck. You don't know me very well, do you? :-) I'm going to send out the classiccmp libertarian goon squad, who will persuade you to think otherwise. (Non-violently, of course.) It's capitalism and lust for money, power, and members of an attractive gender orientation that drives any sort of start-up, including Commodore and Amiga Corp. Care to name some cool technology that wasn't driven by capitalism? - John From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 15:03:44 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Zuse Message-ID: <19980625200344.4131.qmail@hotmail.com> >>Since we were recently discussing the first computer, I wondered, if >>the Zuse was "first", then what is the ENIAC famous for? > >It's main use was calculating ballistics tables for artillery. If >anyone really cares, I could explain it in detail - but it's pretty >boring stuff. For one thing, why is it generally considered to be the first computer? Secondly, what kind of calculation did this involve? Was it a table in the computer or did it involve an equation? What order equation? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 15:13:10 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Old computer books Message-ID: <19980625201311.15766.qmail@hotmail.com> >Care to name some cool >technology that wasn't driven by capitalism? OK! the usage of fire, the processing of most materials (iron, copper, wood, stone, etc.). In fact, if you say that capitalism is only present when it's called capitalism, then most technologies. All simple machines. The scale. The boat. Most things achieved by the military such as the computer (yes, they were partly bombing Japan for economic reasons, but that's a little farfetched). All nuclear equipment was engineered separately in the USSR. Had enough yet? The printing press. The castle. The book. Writing. At any rate, I'm not saying Capitalism is BAD, I'm just saying it doesn't promote ingenuity, which is true for many other governments. >- John > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 25 12:42:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:49 2005 Subject: Macintoshes... In-Reply-To: <9806250230.ZM11152@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 25, 98 01:30:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 390 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/2d665753/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 25 12:57:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806251041.MAA13570@marina.fth.sbs.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jun 25, 98 12:55:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1300 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/ad297638/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 25 13:03:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <199806251406.AA16667@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 25, 98 10:06:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1276 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/23735f28/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 25 13:08:39 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron In-Reply-To: <19980625142507.16593.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 25, 98 07:25:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 776 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/3995ad02/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 25 13:11:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 25, 98 10:27:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 787 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/7577d130/attachment.ksh From cad at gamewood.net Thu Jun 25 15:36:41 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Old computer books References: <3.0.1.32.19980625150310.00cb3100@pc> Message-ID: <3592B4D9.5DFA@gamewood.net> John Foust wrote: > > At 12:53 PM 6/25/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: > > > >Here's one: Capitalism, the abode of stupidity, is the crematorium of > >ingenuity and creativity. Just off the top of my head. > > Yuck. You don't know me very well, do you? :-) I'm going to > send out the classiccmp libertarian goon squad, who will persuade > you to think otherwise. (Non-violently, of course.) > > It's capitalism and lust for money, power, and members of an > attractive gender orientation that drives any sort of start-up, > including Commodore and Amiga Corp. Care to name some cool > technology that wasn't driven by capitalism? > > - John Hi John: How about "you are both right". You are reffering to the 'cream' that rises to the top, whille the initial comment unfortunately _does_ hold true in most general cases. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From franke at sbs.de Thu Jun 25 17:51:22 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Zuse Message-ID: <199806252038.WAA25649@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>>Since we were recently discussing the first computer, I wondered, if >>>the Zuse was "first", then what is the ENIAC famous for? >>It's main use was calculating ballistics tables for artillery. If >>anyone really cares, I could explain it in detail - but it's pretty >>boring stuff. > For one thing, why is it generally considered to be the first computer? Maybe a very simple thing - since after the war ther was only the Brit/US developents known to the (Brit/US) Scientists, they just didn't know (like von Neuman is always credited for the idea of a seperation of memory and CPU - but in fact Zuse had published this idea 7 years earlyer). It's a bit like one woman, in Florida, asked me around 1992 if I'm from West Germany, East Germany or new Germany *rotfl* Missing information. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Jun 25 17:43:41 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: References: <3591D5FB.1EDA@geocities.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980625174341.006db414@pop3.concentric.net> That is a good deal I paid over 300 for color slab, but i really want a cube. John At 09:17 AM 6/25/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Does anyone on the list collect NeXT systems? I had the chance to see >>one the other day and now I am hooked... but they wanted 500 bucks for a >>33mhz turbo color cube (IIRC...) w/ a 21" sony monitor. in any case, >>(and i realize i'm stepping in a big heaping pile here) what's a >>reasonable cost for these systems? after using afterstep for linux, i >>would love to use nextstep and use the real thing. >> >>-Eric > >Smokin' deal - jump on it. If you decide later that you don't want it, I'll >be happy to take it off your hands. > >R. > >-- > > > >Warbaby >The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. >http://www.warbaby.com > >The MonkeyPool >WebSite Content Development >http://www.monkeypool.com > > Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. > > > > > > > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Jun 25 14:41:30 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Free boot disks for Lisa Message-ID: <199806252342.TAA17470@smtp.interlog.com> Heads up for Lisa owners. Saw this on Obsolete Comps. DO NOT E-MAIL ME. CONTACT THE ADDRESSEE BELOW ! Michael Getsey St. Louis, MO USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 03:24:39 Have three 5.25 inch, double sided, double density disks for Apple III PC. I used these for a COBOL class I had at The Citadel. Disks are Apple III E-Z Pieces Boot Disc, Compiler, and Utilities. I believe I was using them on an Apple Lisa at the time ( 1983 ). They're free for the asking. Send me your "snail mail" address, and they're yours! lwalker@interlog.com From rcini at email.msn.com Thu Jun 25 18:58:43 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: EPROM programmers available Message-ID: <00b101bda095$4ba94e40$8d8b2599@mainoffice> FYI, this guy has some multiple-gang EPROM programmers available. Contact him directly (Mikeooo1@aol.com). The Gangpro S I have will enable you to burn up to 32 chips at a time and covers hundreds of device types.Its features are way too numerous to go into but its replacement is selling for over $6000.I am looking for $300 for it.The Gangpro8 will do 8 at a time and covers most device types also. It is self contained where as the "S" can hook up thru a 232 cable with a PC. The one you'll probably be most interested in is an EP-2A-88 by Optimal Technolgy which requires a "personality module" for the eprom type you wish to program and will program 4 at a time. I have such modules for 2716's and 2532's only.I am looking for $45 for that one. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin! Charter Member - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Preserver of "classic" computers <<<< ========== reply separator ========== >>>>> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 25 15:41:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Mark 8 pc boards In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jun 25, 98 11:04:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 466 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/04edb82d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 25 15:49:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Mark 8 pc boards In-Reply-To: <199806251952.MAA10738@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Jun 25, 98 12:52:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1113 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/0e0c31b8/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 19:21:08 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: The Beatles Message-ID: <19980626002108.26370.qmail@hotmail.com> I just found a discarded Packard Bell 486 (I almost left it because the case looked like a 286's). I don't know why you all dislike those things so much, this case is very good. Anyway, when the machine boots, the ROM displays a "Packard Bell" graphic, complete with a 3-second fade-in (if only people paid so much attention to _useful_ stuff). Underneath, it displays, "America grew up listening to us. It still does." Now, this is my question. What does this mean? When was this company founded, and what was their original product? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From william at ans.net Thu Jun 25 19:25:12 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Rather you than me. When you've got one big Asic, with photodiodes (data > and focus error) going in at one end, and a bitstream for a DAC, and > servo drive signals at the other, then good luck in trying to figure out > how to tap off the data bitstream after the 1st error correction before > the digital filter stage, etc. And good luck in figuring out how to take > control from the servos. Skip that stuff! If you can get the raw signals off the photodiodes, and the characteristics of the motors (focus, disk rotation, and seek), designing a dumb control system would be trivial. You could even skip the focus control, replacing it with a manual system that would need fiddling with each time (although todays CDs are remarkably consistent). Just take outputs of the photodiodes and stick them thru a very simple control system (a PID system would be way overkill!) and feed it to the servomotor. Yes, you might have to fiddle around with a bunch of resistances to get the loop right, but that is not too bad. For a true CLASSICOMP type, a Heathkit EC-1 could be used to get the control system designed! I am not thinking about having a random access device at all. If CD-ROM drives are not available, go to the next medium. Read the old CD-ROMs once and transfer, just like 7 track tapes. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jun 25 19:25:41 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Last two days of ClassicCmp anyone? Message-ID: I got unsubscribed from ClassicCmp somehow. Can someone forward me the last two days worth or tell me where I can get it? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Jun 25 19:36:16 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Coco Question Message-ID: <001a01bda09a$6ecbce20$0100a8c0@francois> >Also, does anyone know what happened to Roger Merchberger? Seems to have >disappeared. You can find him on the M100 mailing list. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From william at ans.net Thu Jun 25 19:33:16 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: The Beatles In-Reply-To: <19980626002108.26370.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > I just found a discarded Packard Bell 486 (I almost left it because the > case looked like a 286's). I don't know why you all dislike those things > so much, this case is very good. Anyway, when the machine boots, the ROM > displays a "Packard Bell" graphic, complete with a 3-second fade-in (if > only people paid so much attention to _useful_ stuff). Underneath, it > displays, "America grew up listening to us. It still does." Now, this is > my question. What does this mean? When was this company founded, and > what was their original product? Packard-Bell, as you see it, is simply not the company it used to be. As with so many American company names, someone bought the name. I think (do not quote me on any of this!) that originally it was two seperate entities - Packard Instrument and Bell Sound. The former was around in the 1950s, and made test equipment for the nuclear industry. Bell Sound may have been earlier, as they made Speech Amplifiers for the World War Two U.S. Navy model TBL radio transmitters. Eventually Packard-Bell was formed, and made all sorts of things, including a small family of minicomputers in the early 1960s. RCS/RI has one of the machines, a pb250. I have no idea what happened to Packard-Bell. They may still be around, doing defense work, or they may have been swallowed up. The Packard-Bells at CompUSA, however, are simply not related. By the way, Packard-Bell has nothing to do with HP. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 25 19:59:30 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa References: <3.0.16.19980624104432.360f752a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3592F272.404D2041@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 11:11 AM 6/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >>Robotron is also a video game ca. 1981-2 (Williams, iirc) that was > [...] > >>each other. Other, similar games included Sinistar (no relation, and don't > >>even go there) and one whose name I forgot that had to do with spiders and > > >What do you mean, there's no relation? They are both William's titles...and > > Whups... Sorry. I occassionally get sensitive about my last name, and > when I was younger, I was the butt of a lot of jokes centered around my Tell me about it. As a kid, I went by my middle name, as inflicted upon me by my parents -- and my mother and sisters that I first saw in two decades call me Don or Donnie and my sisters taught their kids the name -- I had to deal with craploads of Donald Duck jokes as a kid in the early sixties. When I switched to my first name when I entered Jr. High in 1967 (telling one teacher at the beginning of the year that you use your middle name is easy -- telling seven teachers each semester gets a bit tedious), I had to put up with all of the "Leave it to Beaver" jokes that my classmates had been waiting to use. Yes, I've _heard_ "Ward, weren't you a little hard on the Beaver last night". And several others. -- Ward Donald Griffiths III They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 25 19:57:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 25, 98 08:25:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2656 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/9964e040/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 25 20:08:58 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. References: <3591D5FB.1EDA@geocities.com> Message-ID: <3592F4AA.F329988E@rain.org> Poesie wrote: > > Does anyone on the list collect NeXT systems? I had the chance to see > one the other day and now I am hooked... but they wanted 500 bucks for > a I don't recall the model, but I bought a Next System (sans docs) including the speaker, keyboard, and monitor for somewhere above $100 (can't recall what I paid now.) From wpe at interserv.com Thu Jun 25 20:14:21 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: unsubscribe classiccmp Message-ID: <3592F5ED.8D2F0BB1@interserv.com> Off to Montreal for a week.. Figured I'd temporarily un-subscribe for that period, so SPRYNET doesn't get uptight about the size of my mailbox.... I should be back around 4 July..... Will From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Jun 25 20:21:28 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Back to the Future Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980625130631.7a4fee54@ricochet.net> Aha, y'all thought I was being cute with the subject... 8^) I re-watched BttF II the other night, and noticed that in the window of the shop where Marty buys the sports almanac was an interesting item, an "antique computer". (A mac Plus-ish machine.) I'm not sure exactly what year II came out (about '87-88?) but that was pretty insightful, I think. ('Course, they were pretty cool movies anyway.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jun 25 20:38:10 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: macintoshes, part ][ Message-ID: <8ad036ee.3592fb83@aol.com> Ive got a IIcx that ive tricked out with 5meg, mono display, two external drives, syquest 44 meg drive and the apple cd300 drive and a radius rocket accelerator with 8 meg. unfortunately, the rocket accelerator locks up the machine on the second reboot. disabling it lets the mac work at original speed. can anyone provide suggestions? the rocket seems to be temperamental, from what i can see. david From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 25 20:46:12 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Convergent Miscellany References: <199806251605.LAA01022@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3592FD64.64E55716@cnct.com> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > That is the legal situation. I know where I last _saw_ a copy of the > > source for version 3.51 for the Unix PC (and a copy of the source for > > what would have been next, equivalent to SysVR3) , never made it to > > SQA), but I haven't been able to contact him in a couple of years of > ^^^ > What's his name? Where does he live? We can try 4-11. Last seen in San Jose. In 1992. Unfortunately, since his first and last names are common, a search will turn up _in the Bay Area_ four individuals with that name, a search on the Web will turn up at least eight -- when last seen, he was working in the Bay Area for a company out of Taxachusetts, that was 1992, a bloody lifetime in this industry. And I know that a wider Web search will miss -- there's a guy who has written articles for Linux Journal with the same name, and I've already made certain it wasn't him. (I hoped. I was disappointed -- it's life). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 25 20:57:00 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) References: <232B1D85DFE@orchid.le.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3592FFEC.733D2237@cnct.com> Phil Beesley wrote: > Ethernet cards would be a safe bet but the rarer stuff (GPIB, video > image grabbers etc) would guarantee interesting times... Ah, someone else who uses the old Chinese curse with reference to computers. I figure I've been living in interesting times since I started with that TRS-80 that wasn't a Model One yet (1978). And it's been getting more "interesting" every year since. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From maynard at jmg.com Thu Jun 25 20:45:36 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:43:41 CDT." <3.0.3.32.19980625174341.006db414@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <199806260245.WAA01645@mr-gateway.internal.net> Hey, Someone out there mentioned that I was wrong about NeXT slabs lacking a DSP, but I've lost the original message. Are you certain of this? I used to haveto have a B/W 040 slab on my desk several years ago and I seem to remember that it lacked the DSP and couldn't either record audio or work as a software modem. Now a _long_ time ago a roommate bought one of the early 030 cubes and I know it had the DSP. Maybe I'm just plain wrong, but I _swear_ that slab lacked audio. Anyone out there have a history of NeXT black hardware? Curious, --jmg From g at kurico.com Thu Jun 25 21:45:27 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <199806260245.WAA01645@mr-gateway.internal.net> References: Your message of "Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:43:41 CDT." <3.0.3.32.19980625174341.006db414@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: All NeXT hardware had the DSP. Go to www.deepspacetech.com and follow the NeXT links for more info. They are also a good (reputable) source for NeXT stuff. George Hey, > Someone out there mentioned that I was wrong about NeXT slabs lacking > a > DSP, but I've lost the original message. Are you certain of this? I used > to haveto have a B/W 040 slab on my desk several years ago and I seem to > remember that it lacked the DSP and couldn't either record audio or work > as a software modem. Now a _long_ time ago a roommate bought one of the > early 030 cubes and I know it had the DSP. Maybe I'm just plain wrong, > but I _swear_ that slab lacked audio. Anyone out there have a history of > NeXT black hardware? > > Curious, > --jmg > From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 25 21:58:20 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Old computer books References: <3.0.1.32.19980625150310.00cb3100@pc> <3592B4D9.5DFA@gamewood.net> Message-ID: <35930E4C.7DF8A482@cnct.com> Charles A. Davis wrote: > > John Foust wrote: > > > > At 12:53 PM 6/25/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > >Here's one: Capitalism, the abode of stupidity, is the crematorium of > > >ingenuity and creativity. Just off the top of my head. > > > > Yuck. You don't know me very well, do you? :-) I'm going to > > send out the classiccmp libertarian goon squad, who will persuade > > you to think otherwise. (Non-violently, of course.) > > > > It's capitalism and lust for money, power, and members of an > > attractive gender orientation that drives any sort of start-up, > > including Commodore and Amiga Corp. Care to name some cool > > technology that wasn't driven by capitalism? NSA-style cryptography and CIA-style assassination. > How about "you are both right". You are reffering to the 'cream' that > rises to the top, whille the initial comment unfortunately _does_ hold > true in most general cases. The cream rises to the top. So does the scum. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From foxnhare at goldrush.com Thu Jun 25 21:59:53 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Mac Answers References: <199806250702.AAA16274@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <35930EAA.70E9690A@goldrush.com> To the person looking for a Mac keyboard and mouse... Before you start getting that 'ol 512 ready to rumble most of the internet software you want to learn about will NOT work on it (save for an older (really older) mac terminal like Red Ryder via a provider's UNIX shell account). Best to go with the SE and the ADB route and get an appropriate mouse and keyboard to get on the net. (though you can get up to web browsing with an SE but without such niceities as pictures and such.) Then such things as PPP, TCP/IP, etc apply. Though You should ask for something like a color LC, Performa, or centris class as they would also let you work with Open Transport file system along with the old system under 7+. :) ============ To the person regarding IDE drives on a Mac 636... From william at ans.net Thu Jun 25 22:08:08 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Wait a second!. CD players other than Philips ones have _4_ servo loops > AFIAK. There's the spindle speed, controlled roughly by how full the RAM > buffer is (when it gets too full, the spindle slows down). That is the easy one to figure. Compare the queue length with a threshold value, and feed a value into a DAC (motor drive circuits are assumed). Something along the lines of Mspeed = Kspeed + (Qoptimal - Qlength). Here, if the queue's length (Qlength) is greater that the optimal queue length (half full, half empty, Qoptimal), a negative value is added to constant (optimal) Kspeed, and the result is Mspeed, a value thrown at a DAC. The DAC then feeds a simple DC motor driver. There are lots of proven circuits for that last bit. Of course, if one reads of the bitstream and stores it on a hard disk or a mountain of RAM, the queue could be considered infinitely large, and the spindle would never race ahead and fill it. I believe that the pits in the aluminum (or gold) are encoded with a clocking reference (probably PCM), so clock recovery might not be too bad if the spindle is kept at a reasonable velocity. One could even vary the velocity by the position of the head, to making the clocking "window" a bit more controlled. > Focus, which is contiually adjusted. Disks warp, and old disks (we are > talking about recovering data from old media) are likely to be worse than > new ones. Warped? Yes, if the disks are treated poorly. I just took a sample of some of my CDs, and they are definitely not warped - I can stick them face to face and they match perfectly. I would certainly hope that archival copies of things on CD-ROMs would be treated gingerly. Having to deal with scratches and scuffs would be a big hassle. > I don't think a fixed focus unit has much of a chance of > working. Focus is a voice coil on the lens assembly. Focus error is > detected by the relative amplitude of signals from a number of > photodiodes. While simple in theory, figuring out what the signals are > without a manual is not going to be trivial OK, big deal. You could figure out the basic characteristics of the focus system by monitoring the circuit while it does its initial looking for the disk (put no disk in the drawer, and watch the lenses move to its extremes), and while spinning a disk, so you can get an idea of what the optimal signal levels are. I assume that the photodiodes will output the most when things are in focus. If not in focus, some of the light will not hit the detector. > Coarse tracking, which is a motor/gear assembly to move the pickup. This > is the one used to move to a different track, and comes into operation > when the fine tracking servo offset gets too large. As I said before, forget the seek function. Read the whole track and figure out what you want later, with it sitting on a hard disk (or even RAM). Adding seek functionality does complicate things greatly. > Fine tracking. A rotary 'meter movement like' coil on the lens assembly. > This one move the lens by individual tracks - when it gets near the end > of its range, the coarse tracking servo shifts the pickup a bit, and the > fine tracking servo relocks near the other end of its range. This servo > also compensates for radial errors in the disk - which can be quite > significant. I've even seen disks (poorly produced disks) where the > coarse tracking servo has to wobble a bit to keep on track. Yes, I have seen this, where the worm lurches back and forth. Solving this problem would involve adding one more input to the fine tracking controller, basically a value stating how far off the coarse tracker thinks it is. I would condition the input a bit to get rid of any gear chatter and motor "cogging", probably with an integrator. Not doing so might cause the the fine movement to buck around wildly every time the coarse drive motor "coggs" (unofficial term for the unevenness caused by the magnets in motor, much like a stepping motion). > Now, in theory all that can be built. After all, the servo circuit of > older CD players was just a pile of op-amps, and a microcontroller to > handle track jumps only. The problem comes with actually doing it when > you don't know the electrical or mechanical properties of the mechanism. Experimentation is called for! I remember making control systems with analog parts (op amps are wonderful things!), and the easiest thing to do was to chuck the equations out the window and place multiturn pots where called for. It involves a bit of trial and error, but a good idea of how things behave quickly emerges. In the above example with the integrator, put a pot on the thing to vary the effect. Find out what value works best, so the fine control system still tracks when the coarse system adjusts itself, yet does not go nuts. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 25 22:19:34 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Old computer books References: <19980625201311.15766.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35931346.24B41516@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > >Care to name some cool > >technology that wasn't driven by capitalism? > OK! the usage of fire, the processing of most materials (iron, copper, > wood, stone, etc.). In fact, if you say that capitalism is only present > when it's called capitalism, then most technologies. All simple > machines. The scale. The boat. Most things achieved by the military such > as the computer (yes, they were partly bombing Japan for economic > reasons, but that's a little farfetched). All nuclear equipment was > engineered separately in the USSR. Had enough yet? The printing press. > The castle. The book. Writing. > > At any rate, I'm not saying Capitalism is BAD, I'm just saying it > doesn't promote ingenuity, which is true for many other governments. Maxie, you are young. As I recall, when I was about your age when I spent about a week as a Marxist before I realized there was nothing in it for me or for anybody else. Contrary to popular fantasy, very little is actually _created_ by governments. The biggest problem with NASA for instance is that it tries to pretend it's responsible for shitloads of developments done by contractors who worked for a profit. The printing press was developed by a guy who owed too much to a church/ government lending agency. Castles were developed by guys who realized they needed walls to hide behind in case the people they were stealing from got past the rhetoric -- the IRS is learning this trick. If you can give me an independent reference for _anything_ the USSR invented, I'll be extremely surprised. Hell, the Soviet auto and gun industries were based out of factories delivered by the US during "The Great Patriotic War". Give me an example of a computer innovation done during the last twenty years by a government or socialist organization. If you do, I swear that I will shit in my hat and wear it backwards. And I do not swear lightly. Companies working to take a profit from government contracts don't count (and rarely produce). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 25 22:36:29 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Coco Question References: <3.0.16.19980625092026.43c7534e@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3593173D.5C4570F@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > Picked up a cartridge for the Coco t'other day, and I'm not sure what it > is. It says "Cat. No. 26-3129" and "Color Computer Controller" on it. Has > the card-edge connector where it plugs in, then another, smaller one on the > back end. My guess is it's a floppy controller? After 12 years I no longer have the stock numbers memorized. I _think_ you've got a floppy controller. (The only Color Computer floppy controllers I have on hand nowadays are third-party). The way to test is to plug it into a Color Computer (no disk drive required) and see if the screen comes up "Color Disk BASIC" instead of "Extented Color BASIC". -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 25 22:48:43 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron References: Message-ID: <35931A1B.8D0E21C6@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > like this if they are made about people rather than, "The idea began > > slowly to take shape that instead of using a two-stage adder it would be > > easier to use a shift register. This was to come up later when..." > > And that's exactly why any book I'd write would sell about 2 copies. I'd > _have_ to write about the machines and how they worked, rather than the > people behind them. Things like 'The 16K WCS PERQ needed 14 address lines > from the sequencer. It used a 2910 for the bottom 12, to maintain > compatability with the 4K board. But, since that sequencer can't easily > be cascaded, a custom sequnecer, built from TTL chips was used for the > top 2 bits. This only implemented a subset of the 2910 instructions > ...' It's riveting for the right readers, but like the stuff I try to sell, the public will go "Huh?". (Personally, your tidbit is fascinating to _me_, but _I_ don't buy best-sellers [or obviously write them], though I keep trying -- science fiction is more important than[though obviously connected to] computers to me -- I was hooked on SF in 1963 or so, didn't really deal with computers until 1978). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 25 22:51:38 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Free boot disks for Lisa References: <199806252342.TAA17470@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <35931ACA.F8E662D9@cnct.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > > Heads up for Lisa owners. Saw this on Obsolete Comps. > > DO NOT E-MAIL ME. CONTACT THE ADDRESSEE BELOW ! > > Michael Getsey > St. Louis, MO USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 03:24:39 > > Have three 5.25 inch, double sided, double density disks for Apple III PC. > I used these for a COBOL class I had at The Citadel. Disks are Apple III > E-Z Pieces Boot Disc, Compiler, and Utilities. I believe I was using them > on an Apple Lisa at the time ( 1983 ). > > They're free for the asking. Send me your "snail mail" address, and they're > yours! Well, Lisa owners can stand down. These aren't for them. Apple III is a different food for worms. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From LAAG at pacbell.net Fri Jun 26 00:11:13 1998 From: LAAG at pacbell.net (ROBERT LAAG) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: COMPUTER AUTOMATION ALPHA-16 Message-ID: <35932D71.7062@pacbell.net> I HAVE SEVERAL COMPUTER AUTOMATION ALPHA-16 MINICOMPUTERS... THEY HAVE CORE MEMORY AND NO PARTICULAR MICRO-PROC CHIP BUT A WHOLE BOARD OF CHIPS FOR THAT FUNCTION... THESE ARE 16 BIT COPUTERS MADE IN THE EARLY 70'S... ANYONE INTERESTED??? I ALSO HAVE SOME 8" FLOPPIES... LAAG@PACBELL.NET From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 26 00:41:27 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Van Burnham wrote: > quoting actual bids? Recently, in a so-called "silent" email auction...I > bid $275 for a non-working Odyssey 1 (IMHO a very fair and reasonably high > bid) only to receive the sellers reply that had been forwarded to ALL GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Check http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/Odyssey/Odyssey.html and if that's the machine you're talking about, I guess I am a very lucky being. I knew it was early and cool, and probably worth something, but not that people would bid hundreds of dollars for broken units! I *had* seen some high prices quoted for complete working units, but I thought they may be anomalies like some of those prices published in the general media for classic computers. I got mine in its original box, with the playing cards, overlays, manual, dice, etc, and even the "Receive a free ODYSSEY game!" and inspection cards. The poker chips are still wrapped in plastic. I haven't counted to see if I have ALL the cards, but they were organized and held together with elastic bands. I have the RF switchbox and the weird cable for it, and the machine itself has a "RUN NUMBER 1" sticker on the bottom. I've never powered it up because I've never bothered to go out hunting for 'C' cells, and video game systems aren't really my thing (though I do love my Atari 2600). I think I paid $8 (Canadian) for it at a local elementary school sale. (I attended that very school for two years.) I wrapped the box in a plastic bag and put it on an upper shelf, and I've only had it out a few times to show people, and to take some crappy pictures of it. I guess this is a brag post. ;) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Jun 26 00:48:02 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: "No name" S-100 computer Message-ID: <199806260548.WAA00374@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Hello All, I have been working on a "no name" S-100 computer for some time, and finally have gotten it to work! No name = Godbout 12 slot motherboard. Cards: Ithica Audio Z-80 card Seals 8K ram + Godbout 8K (2102 type ram's) Processor Tech CUTS (Cassette tape) Processor Tech GPM (1K ram + ROM board, 1 2K ROM installed) Vector Graphics Flashwriter (16x64 character display) Homebrew card (Input FFH port, etc) All in a modular blue/white metal box with only a lighted power switch and a reset switch. AFAIK, the parts that were not originally mine were not "abused", but was surprised at how much was wrong: 1) The op-amp in the motherboard active terminator was bad. 2) A cap across 5V in one of the RAM boards was shorted. The 2102 rams on this supply didn't like ~0V power, but TTL address and data signals. Luckily they were socketed, and still available fairly cheaply. 3) 3 other 2102 rams were bad. Some on the "GPM" board were marked only "DS9408" 4) There was a "pready" signal conflict. Don't know how it was run with this problem? 5) Bad transistor in the keyboard. 6) 1 or 2 bad 74367 ic's 7) Bad solder joint for one memory pin on the GPM board. It was OK 90% of the time... 8) Bad 4013 ic in the CUTS board- receive data path. Along the way, built a S-100 test jig that was very helpful - one powered edge connector with data, address lines provided by switches, latches, etc. + led's to view data lines. I could test memory chips one at a time with it, find where cards were in address space, until I could get the system to run with a serial terminal (My Heath H-19) and monitor software for further debugging. Finally I loaded Proc. Tech. Basic5 the first time! That cassette tape is about 22 years old. Also "Lunar". My questions: The Processor Tech GPM board I have no documentation, other than what I've figured out. It isn't that complicated. Does anyone have any, such as what are the ROM jumper choices and dip switch positions. (I've figured out about 4) Is there any archive for CUTS software? In the late 70's when I lived in the San Francisco Bay area, there was the "SOLUS" user's group. The third is more general, what determines the value? Obviously if this was a SOL-20 or in a IMSAI box, it would be worth much more on Ebay as well for collectors. In a literal sense, it is more unique and I have design documentation for the mods I've done, dates, reasons, etc. Quess what would be called the fabric. In some cases that's what has the value. (First prototype, etc.) In 10 or ? years, how will I pass it along "to the next generation"? I don't think any public museum would want a "no name" box, and from the museum threads, doesn't sound like a good idea, anyway. I know no one personally that has these "old" computer interests except maybe the speculator type, only this list. Those with private museums, will you be collecting this stuff in say 20 years, or will you be looking to pass it along? To ??? For old radios I can consider the AWA museum, as assume it will be around longer than any individual, but they probably don't want a lot of homebrew stuff. The brand names already "restored" radios are too expensive and rare for me, anyway. Thanks, Dave From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 26 01:01:46 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...) In-Reply-To: <2327BA14CB4@orchid.le.ac.uk> from "Phil Beesley" at Jun 25, 98 05:38:14 pm Message-ID: <199806260601.XAA03575@saul3.u.washington.edu> > The Mac Classic contains a complete System 6 installation in ROM that > you can boot from. Sorry but I don't have the docs handy, but I think > if you press Command-Option-Shift-X on startup, it'll boot from the > ROM. Another way that should work is Command-Option-Shift-Backspace -- Actually, the keys to press are: Cmd-Option-X-O That's the letter O, not the number zero. -- Derek From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jun 26 01:03:37 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Back to the Future In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980625130631.7a4fee54@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > I re-watched BttF II the other night, and noticed that in the window of the > shop where Marty buys the sports almanac was an interesting item, an > "antique computer". (A mac Plus-ish machine.) I'm not sure exactly what > year II came out (about '87-88?) but that was pretty insightful, I think. > ('Course, they were pretty cool movies anyway.) More cutsie than insightful. They just took a computer that was contemporary for the time and figured the audience would get the gag. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 26 01:16:09 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > on my C=1802 but I suspect that would still be the case even if I had a > > proper video cable. (That CHR$(23) trick for fat letters is pretty cool.) > > Ah yes... Look at alternate characters in screen memory... (There are > tricks which involve convincing BASIC that it's in 32 col mode and > forcing the hardware to 64 col mode to get alternate letters and spaces > on the screen). Well... please tell me what these tricks are! :) I did notice in 32 column mode that the "PRINT @" command still thinks it's in 64 column mode. (I wrote my traditional 'dump memory to screen' program as soon as I could see what was going on.) > As I've said before you don't need that many tools. A good set of hand > tools, a soldering iron + solder sucker, a multimeter (analogue or > digital) and a logic probe are enough for most work. I don't even know what a logic probe is, and I only learned since I've been reading this list that I don't know how to use a soldering iron (hey, heating the SOLDER until it melts to the contacts has worked _so_far_ ;) ). Actually, I WAS using an old wood burning kit, but the copper (or brass?) tip gets dirty WAAAAY too fast. So a year or two ago I finally picked up something intended for soldering - but it's too wimpy (15W). I also picked up a solder sucker, but it's a bulb type with a heating element at the end, and it doesn't work very well. Maybe I just need more patience with it. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 26 01:22:31 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...) In-Reply-To: <199806260601.XAA03575@saul3.u.washington.edu> References: <2327BA14CB4@orchid.le.ac.uk> from "Phil Beesley" at Jun 25, 98 05:38:14 pm Message-ID: >> The Mac Classic contains a complete System 6 installation in ROM that >> you can boot from. Sorry but I don't have the docs handy, but I think >> if you press Command-Option-Shift-X on startup, it'll boot from the >> ROM. Another way that should work is Command-Option-Shift-Backspace -- > >Actually, the keys to press are: > > Cmd-Option-X-O > >That's the letter O, not the number zero. Wow, it has the complete OS in ROM? I didn't know any of the Mac's did that. Are there any others or was this a one shot experiment that failed? The OS in ROM is the main thing I like about the Atari ST's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 26 01:28:38 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 24, 98 06:53:07 pm Message-ID: <199806260628.XAA08316@saul3.u.washington.edu> > But seriously, since my workshop isn't open to the public, and almost > nobody knows who I am, where should %random_person go to find out about > real front panels, forerunners of Windows, etc. If not a science museum, > then where? Geez, this thread has become very gloomy very quickly. I'm leaving for London tomorrow (so I won't get any replies to this message -- but flame me at Bletchley Park on Sunday!) so I'm remaining hopeful that British museums are more informative than their American counterparts. I've seen the process of decay at the Boston Computer Museum. I will give them generous credit for setting up their California center, though I don't know how that will turn out. I've seen the same change in miniature at the Science Museum in London. The Pacfic Science Center here in Seattle has resisted, but they're slipping too. Personally, I'd place my bets on the small individually-operated computer museums that are beginning to appear. But they probably don't have the special qualities we need: - Attract a connoisseur audience; provide it with meaty information. - Attract a curious (or un-curious!) neophyte audience; spark its interest in hopes of its becoming a connoisseur audience. Expect that the change will not happen to many people. - Don't waste money. Don't sneer at opportunities. Don't accept opportunities and then sneer at them afterward. - Do all this on a large scale. A couple of these points stem from a recent conversation I had with Jim Willing. He knows it can happen on a very small scale -- it's dealing with masses of people that is the formidable aspect of this sort of management. -- Derek From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 26 01:37:37 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 25, 98 11:22:31 pm Message-ID: <199806260637.XAA29702@saul3.u.washington.edu> > Wow, it has the complete OS in ROM? I didn't know any of the Mac's did > that. Are there any others or was this a one shot experiment that failed? > The OS in ROM is the main thing I like about the Atari ST's. I don't know of any other Macs with that feature either, and I'll bet that there were none. It was a somewhat Spartan version (not as unpleasant as a boot floppy, much less pleasant than a fancy hard-drive installation). Now that Systems 7 and 8 have taken over, it probably would seem pretty barren. It sure is fast though! But none of your Finder preferences get saved. (Where would they go?) BTW, if you "Get Info" on the virtual hard drive, you'll see an amusing tag in the "Location" field. -- Derek From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 26 01:42:13 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: FS/T: BEEHIVE MINI BEE IV terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've got a 1975 mini bee terminal in my San Jose-based car, and I want it out of there now! Like anything from 1975 named "mini", it's too heavy for me to lift by myself, but it is bee-eautiful! 12" display, and a customized detachable keyboard with buit-in joystick and thumb-wheels. It includes the manual (which includes the schematics, including what looks like an original blueprint for part of it). Because this thing really would make a bee-autiful (I'll stop soon) museum-quality addition to any serious collection, I've got the balls to ask for something in trade or cash. I'll take the best offer (including an offer to help get it out of my car) by Saturday morning 8:30AM PDT. -- Doug From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 26 01:56:41 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: COMODORE=TANDY In-Reply-To: <19980622100133.07225@zeke.as.utexas.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Matthew Sayler wrote: > I remember back in '98 when Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > > I was looking around at http://www.patents.ibm.com > > > > > > I discovered that Commodore Electronics held the > > > patent for the case of the TRS-80 CoCo2(3?), which makes me wonder if > > > they designed the rest of the computer for Radio Shack. > > > > > > Any Edgeumacated guesses anyone...anyone :) > > I recall that Commodore started buisness as a manufacturer of cases and > such, so this isn't too much of a surprise. Actually, I think the _very_ first incarnation of Commodore was into typewriter repair. From there they went into office furniture and mechanical adding machines, then to electronic calculators and finally to computers. I'm constantly running into Commodore filing cabinets around here, in places as diverse as The Montreal General Hospital, the Salvation Army (which actually uses rows of Commodore book shelves with little metal "C= Commodore" plates on them), local schools and even at garage sales. A friend of mine had Commodore filing cabinets in his office where he worked as a programmer, as well as at home. My father had a Commodore programmable scientific calculator (PR-100) which I have claimed, but which has unfortunately had its case smashed to bits and is therefore now held together by glue-gun glue. That calculator was my Dad's main mathematical tool for over a decade of engineering work. My father remembers seeing lots of Commodore adding machines where he worked, too, and I've been hoping to find one in a junk shop somewhere, but I've had no luck so far. (My brother has a Burroughs adding machine, which is kind of cool.) For a time, Commodore also made some digital watches, but I've never seen one. Apparently Commodore and Tandy were in negotiaions for the design of Tandy's first personal computer, and Commodore showed them the PET but failed to cut a deal. Probably because Radio Shack had just stolen another machine and no longer needed Commodore's expertise. ;) I've also read that Commodore attempted to buy out Apple, but Mike Markkula got involved with Apple and convinced Jobs and The Woz not to sell. I don't know anything about Commodore involvement with the CoCo{2|3} cases, though. Nor do I know why anyone would bother patenting something like that. The PET case maybe. It's pretty distinctive. BTW, does anyone know what happened to the computer mockups that Porche made for Commodore? Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From red at bears.org Fri Jun 26 02:20:59 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <199806260245.WAA01645@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > Someone out there mentioned that I was wrong about NeXT slabs > lacking a DSP, but I've lost the original message. Are you certain of > this? One hundred per cent certain. I can photo ID the DSP chip for you if you like. Apocryphal evidence: I use a QUIX Daydream ROM box for Mac emulation, which hooks to the DSP port on my NeXTstation. ok r. From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 26 02:46:02 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: "No name" S-100 computer References: <199806260548.WAA00374@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <359351BA.F486F1AC@rain.org> dave dameron wrote: > > In 10 or ? years, how will I pass it along "to the next generation"? I > don't > think any public museum would want a "no name" box, and from the > museum threads, > doesn't sound like a good idea, anyway. I know no one personally that > has > these "old" computer interests except maybe the speculator type, only > this > list. Those with private museums, will you be collecting this stuff in > say > 20 years, or will you be looking to pass it along? To ??? A really good question. At VCF 1.0, there was some discussion about whys and hows of collecting old computers. One of the points brought up was that some consideration should be made about how the collections will be handled once we are no longer here. I've talked with others who feel that their collections just might end up going for pennies on the dollar because those that would most likely be responsible for the estate just wouldn't know enough about the values involved. I've been given many computers to "give them a good home" and I have also given away computers/things/stuff to others who I felt would appreciate them. I don't plan to stop collecting, but if some major event put me in a situation where I *had* to dispose of the collection, I would be inclined to give it to an individual/institution that *I* felt would be able to best use it. "Best", BTW, could mean displaying, preserving, and maybe even using! From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 26 03:45:24 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: IBM RS6000 for sale Message-ID: <9805268988.AA898876701@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > The 320H is a decent machine (unlike the 220 dog), but lacks a ethernet > port. Like most RS/6000s, it has screaming floating point, and can use XGA > (a bit more tube freindly than other workstations). [Pause while I get up from my desk and go and look at our RS/6000s] Hey! You're right! Our 320 machines (320E, upgraded from 320 something else I think, equivalent to 320H) have ethernet on a microchannel card. That shouldn't be too hard to find... We've had our 320s for six years or more, our 375 for four or five. We are thinking of getting something faster but it's hard to match the FP performance on anything modern. With luck, when (if) we do, I'll get the old ones. FWIW the fastest FP we found in our sort of price range was the RS/6000 model 397. The last of the POWER RISC machines, much faster than the Power PC RS/6000s... But I fear we're a bit off topic here... Philip. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 26 03:36:09 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Attache Altair?? In-Reply-To: <19980624133115.22034.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Bob Wood wrote: > I have made contact with an individual who has > what he describes as an Altair 8800 which is > in an "Attache" case made by Icom in 1976. Would > appreciate any information about this "Attache". > Is it a very desirable thing. Were very many produced, etc? > It has MITS > boards (CPU, IO, disk controller) and power suppy. > He wants to trade it to me for an Imsai 8800. > Would that be a good trade on my part? > > Thanks, > > Bob From the deservingly-neglected ComputerList file I was working on three or four years ago: Altair Attache - Portable computer - ?2,695 (single disk) [Photo: Longley] ?2,995 (twin disks) (1985, Longley) Processor: 8080A (2 MHz) RAM Min, Max: 16 KB, expandable to 64 KB Included ROM: MITS BASIC I/O Ports: RS232C serial port (factory set to 9,600 bps), composite video, 10 S-100 slots (only 7 available) Keyboard: detached 63-key keyboard OS: MITS BASIC Display Type: internal composite monitor, can use external composite Screen Size: 64 x 16 chars. Graphics: Sound: Dimensions: Weight: Mass Storage Included: one or two 8-inch 310 KB drives Power Supply: internal Notes: Release Date: 1979 Reference: Longley, The Microcomputer Users Handbook 1985, p.216 Unfortunately, it was simply listed under "Altair", and not under the manufacturing company's name. I'd have to go back to my original source to see what contact information was given, etc. Oh yeah, there were a LOT of errors in the book I got this from, so a lot of these details may be bogus, or confused, or arrived at by reading between badly written lines. At any rate, I'd say it's definitely an interesting machine. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Jun 26 03:44:33 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Jun 26, 98 03:20:59 am Message-ID: <199806260844.BAA20537@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/bc393e41/attachment.ksh From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 26 04:01:21 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? Message-ID: Hi, I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its original motherboard, without opening the case. I saw one at the Salvation Army today and was considering dragging it home (though I decided to take another machine instead). The machine did have a cassette port in the back, with a femal DIN connector. Is this attached to the motherboard? The machine also had a full complement of cards in its slots, with lots of ports coming out of it. And a 3.5" drive that was poorly fitted into the case. I'm wondering if I should make a trip downtown sometime this weekend, with the car. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Fri Jun 26 04:33:44 1998 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:50 2005 Subject: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...) Message-ID: <24368F71E39@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 25 Jun 98 at 23:22, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Wow, it has the complete OS in ROM? I didn't know any of the Mac's did > that. Are there any others or was this a one shot experiment that failed? > The OS in ROM is the main thing I like about the Atari ST's. ISTR that Apple were looking at a diskless Mac project -- the sort of thing that would interest education. The Classic was available as a hard diskless model according to the manual but I've never seen one. Of course the diskless idea would never have worked very well as there was nowhere to install extensions/INITs and the diskless Classic was stuck on System 6.0.x and there was no ethernet capability. (An aside: Sonic Systems later developed The Diskless Mac (TDM) which used a boot PROM on an ethernet card to attach to an AppleShare server where a System image was stored. This worked with System 7 but the hardware range was limited.) Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 26 04:44:49 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: Wang Thang Message-ID: I finally went back to check on that "Wang PC-002" I asked about earlier. It was a bit more scratched up, but it hadn't moved an inch in the past two and a half(?) weeks. I managed to locate its keyboard, as well as the keyboard for an aparently keyboardless Tandy 1000TX that was in another part of the building, so I decided to drag the Wang machine home. NOT an easy job. It was about a mile to the nearest subway station, with lots of broken escalators up and down once I got into the system. And I was carrying a large book bag full of stuff I have to look over for work. By the time the bus dropped me off near home, we were in the middle of a thunder storm. So I left the computer on top of someone's gate post (wide brick thing with flat cement top) under some trees near the bus stop, and made a run for home (about a half-mile). I went back with the car as soon as I got home. Anyway, it sure is a curious beast. And HUGE, to my eyes. It's not quite as big as I reported before, but it's BIG. The closest offhand and possibly innacurate comparison I could make is to a friend's MicroVax, but I don't know what kind of MicroVax that is. If I sit it vertically (a position the box looks very comfortable in), it measures about 15" high, by 6.5" wide, by 23" long. It has two floppy drives mounted in the front: one half-height 5.25" drive, and one full-hieght 5.25" drive. In the back, I can see the backs of various cards. One of them has the connector for the keyboard (4-pin DIN) as well as one serial and one parallel port, so it must be the motherboard. Beside that (or above, depending on orientation) is a board with a sticker reading "PM032-B 512K Memory Expansion". Next to that, is what appears to be an empty slot, and then there is what appears to be some kind of networking card. It has two coaxial cable connectors and a toggle switch. There is another card beside (or above) that, with no ports or labels, but I can see chips through the air holes. Beside (or above) the mystery card is a board with a label reading "PM101 IBM Mono Emulation". It has an 8-pin DIN connector and a 5-pin DIN connector, which I would guess are for monitor and PC keyboard(?). Does anyone know the pinouts of the various ports, or anything else about this machine? Will it read PC disks or do I need to boot it up with some wacky Wang-format disk? Does the machine require some kind of terminal, or will a monitor connect into the back of the IBM Emulation board and let me see what's going on? The sticker on the side (top) of the machine says it's a PC-002, but the sticker on the back says it's a PC-P002. The keyboard has a lot of word processing functions on it. Anyway, I haven't opened it up yet, or done anything with it but look at it. Disassembly looks like it might be difficult, because I have to slip the innards through the full length metal sleeve. I won't be up to that until my arms recover. I've even got bruises and some kind of blood blisters or something, from carrying that thing. :/ I probably won't have time to play with it today as I promised to install NetBSD 1.3.2 and some UNIX software on my Amiga 3000 instead of coming to work. (And look at the time. :) ) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From bobstek at ix.ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 26 08:26:30 1998 From: bobstek at ix.ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: "No name" S-100 computer Message-ID: <199806261027.FAA21878@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> Dave - Your timing is good for asking about a ProcTech tape archive. I've been working with another Sol owner and will soon have a CUTS programs CD-ROM (just use a portable CD-ROM player in place of the cassette player) with as much of the original software as it's been possible to find (TARG, BASIC5, TREK80, FOCAL, PILOT, etc.). I also have a tape from Proteus, the ProcTech users group, which I can send you immediately. Email me you address and I'll pop it in the mail. Bob Stek From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Fri Jun 26 05:26:08 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? Message-ID: <001401bda0ec$d573bd20$823ec018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> > >I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its >original motherboard, without opening the case. I saw one at the >Salvation Army today and was considering dragging it home (though I >decided to take another machine instead). > >The machine did have a cassette port in the back, with a femal DIN >connector. Is this attached to the motherboard? Yes it is. So it sounds like it's original. There were 2 motherboards, a 16-64k and a 64-256k. The former was the original one. The latter has a B in a circle stamped on the back plate. From thomas100 at home.com Fri Jun 26 03:00:39 1998 From: thomas100 at home.com (Thomas Pfaff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: <199806261136.DAA10598@next.ireadyco.com> Please forgive if this is an inappropriate way to subscribe and it goes onto your mailing list. I'm not sure whether this server knows to add me or if I need to make contact with a specific individual before I am subscribed. I've been looking around this list for what must be years! Thomas Pfaff thomas100@home.com Trs-80 Model 4 lover From higginbo at netpath.net Thu Jun 25 12:46:12 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980625102843.3ed76fdc@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980625134612.00825c50@netpath.net> At 12:27 PM 6/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >Probably not. Obvious exapmle: a 68030 upgrade board probably wouldn't be >all that great in a 68030+ based mac. Other than stuff like that, though, >I think yes, NuBus is supposed to be pretty standard. (And yes, you can >put in multiple video cards and use multiple monitors for that starship >effect.) I'm running like that now under Windows 98. That's one point FOR windows 98 at least. :) The reason for the nubus question: We've got quite a few 10mbps network cards that were pulled from Mac II machines, and quite a few IIcx and IIci machines without them. I just wasn't sure about this, since I heard even a Mac SE and Mac SE/30 couldn't swap cards. Speaking of networking, if you own a bunch of older macs, another alternative to an internal card is the Asante EN/SC series of SCSI network adapters. I cam eacross one or two here at work and they work pretty good. It's even got it's own SCSI ID number, and works just like a regular network adapter card. Just thought I'd mention it. ________________________________________ john higginbotham limbo.netpath.net - webmaster, http://www.pntprinting.com - "Teamwork is essential; it gives the - enemy other people to shoot at." - From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Fri Jun 26 07:20:28 1998 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: macintoshes, part ][ Message-ID: <24630956CBF@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 25 Jun 98 at 21:38, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > Ive got a IIcx that ive tricked out with 5meg, mono display, two external > drives, syquest 44 meg drive and the apple cd300 drive and a radius rocket > accelerator with 8 meg. unfortunately, the rocket accelerator locks up the > machine on the second reboot. disabling it lets the mac work at original > speed. can anyone provide suggestions? the rocket seems to be temperamental, > from what i can see. David, You are about to discover how temperamental the Rocket really can be... I dare say you know that Radius still have the latest RocketWare software and a brief FAQ available on their ftp site. There's another utility there called "lift-off" that checks the configuration of the host Mac for timing senstitive cards that may conflict with the Rocket. Have you tried knocking up a minimal system floppy (eg disk tools for System 7.0 with the RocketWare extension added) and thried booting from that? Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jun 26 08:41:59 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: New eMail Address; Out Of Contact Message-ID: <001a01bda108$34ab6520$676fbcc1@hotze> Hi. For those who care, from the 27th to the 8th of July, I'll be out of contact. In the mean time, I can be reached at worldsfate@geocities.com , and that should get to me after the 8th. This eMail address is getting disconnected. I'm unsubscribing from the list until I can get a faster POP account. Maybe a Hotmail/web based eMail one would work. Anyway, does anyone know an ISP in Washington, DC that could get me hooked up QUICK, from a handheld and only for about a month? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri Jun 26 09:49:40 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: The Beatles In-Reply-To: <5375@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806261353.IAA04978@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> > > I just found a discarded Packard Bell 486 (I almost left it because the > > case looked like a 286's). I don't know why you all dislike those things > > so much, this case is very good. Anyway, when the machine boots, the ROM > > displays a "Packard Bell" graphic, complete with a 3-second fade-in (if > > only people paid so much attention to _useful_ stuff). Underneath, it > > displays, "America grew up listening to us. It still does." Now, this is > > my question. What does this mean? When was this company founded, and > > what was their original product? > > Packard-Bell, as you see it, is simply not the company it used to be. As > with so many American company names, someone bought the name. > I have no idea what happened to Packard-Bell. They may still be around, > doing defense work, or they may have been swallowed up. The Packard-Bells > at CompUSA, however, are simply not related. The way I seen it, P-B may have been a defence contractor during WWII and later, but their main claim to fame was that for decades, they were one of the biggest manufacturers of Broadcast radios, and Television Sets. I know for a fact they were making TV's (of the humongous console variety in vogue at the time) in the early 70's because I remember an inane TV commercial for it. In the 50's and 60's there were some other major players that manufactured TV's (they actually *made* the stuff): Admiral (my grandmother had one), Motorola, GE, RCA and Zenith. Others were: Pilot, Curtis-Mathes (still around, I think), Hofmann, Westinghouse and a whole bunch of other minor players. Then the Japanese arrived (en force) in the mid 70's, and the next thing we knew thousands of americans were out of work, and no Televisions (or Computer monitors, for that matter) were made domestically. Packard-Bell was one of these victims. I don't know who is behind the resurrection of the P-B brandname. I suspect they wanted to appeal to baby-boomers who fondly remember watching 'Hopalong', 'Cisco' or 'Bonanza' on their parents' Packard Bell console TV. Jeff > > By the way, Packard-Bell has nothing to do with HP. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > > > > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From kyrrin at jps.net Fri Jun 26 09:14:20 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: High-end SCSI 9-track drives available! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980626071420.00e615b0@mail.wa.jps.net> Heads up, 9-track users! RE-PC, a local (Seattle/Tukwila, two locations) used computer place I work with has turned up yet -another- pair of M4 Data 9914R 9-track tape drives. Specs can be found at www.m4data.com. The 9914 is built like the proverbial tank. It is actuall a dual-interface device. Leave the SCSI card in, and it is standard SCSI-1 with a 768K buffer. Pull the SCSI card out, and uncover the edge connectors on the back, and it becomes a standard Pertec interface unit. Only one interface may be used at one time; you cannot have both simultaneously. One -really- nice feature of the 9914's, besides how robustly they're built, is that they're quad-density. They will handle any standard density of 9-track tape from 800 (NRZI) to 6250 (GCR). They're front-loading, horizontal mount, and feature a very reliable vacuum-driven autoloading system. Stick the reel in, close the door, and wait about twenty seconds. The 9914 is still manufactured, and supported by M4 Data. Documentation, parts and firmware updates are still available if you can live with some of M4's prices. I've inspected both drives and they look to be in good shape. One looks like it took a minor impact to the rear quarter, as the card cage cover had bent corners (believe me, that's not going to bother a 9914!). Other than that, they look great. If you're interested, contact RE-PC in Tukwila directly: (206) 575-8737. Ask for Eric and tell him I referred you. The last 9914 in good shape went for $165 (a steal considering that these monsters still go for around $7,000 from M4), and I expect the others will be about the same (probably less for the one that's slightly dinged). Take a friend with you when you go. These drives are not light! I can lift one by myself, but it's not a fun experience. The back end is the heaviest as that's where the power transformer is. I've already grabbed three of the beasties. It's time to share the wealth. Enjoy! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Jun 26 09:20:47 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...) Message-ID: <19980626142048.20696.qmail@hotmail.com> I like system 6 much more than the later ones because I think it holds truer to the theory of simplicity and ease-of-use. Try sticking a MacOS 8 system folder on a RAMdisk and boot off that! Will never work. System 6 you could do that on, I've tried. Another feature of System 6 was a macro recorder which has been replaced by the more difficult Applescript. >I don't know of any other Macs with that feature either, and I'll bet that >there were none. It was a somewhat Spartan version (not as unpleasant as >a boot floppy, much less pleasant than a fancy hard-drive installation). >Now that Systems 7 and 8 have taken over, it probably would seem pretty >barren. It sure is fast though! But none of your Finder preferences get >saved. (Where would they go?) They could go to PRAM, but I guess they didn't. What's the tag? >BTW, if you "Get Info" on the virtual hard drive, you'll see an amusing >tag in the "Location" field. > >-- Derek > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From erd at infinet.com Fri Jun 26 10:02:00 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: Odyssey 1 In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 26, 98 01:41:27 am Message-ID: <199806261502.LAA18412@user2.infinet.com> > On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Van Burnham wrote: > > > > > quoting actual bids? Recently, in a so-called "silent" email auction...I > > bid $275 for a non-working Odyssey 1 (IMHO a very fair and reasonably high > > bid)... > > GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! > > Check http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/Odyssey/Odyssey.html and if > that's the machine you're talking about, I guess I am a very lucky being. > I knew it was early and cool, and probably worth something, but not that > people would bid hundreds of dollars for broken units! Wow! Nice (simple) Odyssey page. I, too, have one. It's not the original one my family had in 197x; that one got cannibalized when I was a teenager for the parts. One of the program cards got chopped and soldered to the connector for a 44-pin VIC-20 bus extender (yes, the cards are the same pin cound and spacing). A controller cable got a new lease on life as a C-64 printer cable (user-port to centronics connector). We used to play that thing for hours and hours. My biggest complaint was that the overlays came in small and large, but we had a "medium" TV. My favorite was the sub hunt, followed by the haunted house. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jun 26 10:03:22 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: Will CD-ROM readers exist in 20 years? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980626100322.00ceaaa0@pc> They'll certainly be available to junk collectors like us, won't they, given our seemingly easy access to 9-track tape drives, teletypes with paper tape readers, etc.? There are more CD-ROM readers out there today than there ever were teletypes or S-100 machines or PDPs. Doesn't this mean *more* of them will be left for us to collect in the future? Sure, some are cheaply made, but if they're stored and unused, they'll make it. As for discs themselves, I think the "properly stored" admonition that held true for tapes and floppies holds for CDs. Temperature cycling (like the audio CDs in your car) probably does damage. Exposure to high humidity, which can creep in the sides and also disturb the aluminum layer, does damage. Scratches can introduce errors. Writeable CD-Rs are a different story - we can only hope the engineering of the dyes will hold up. - John From kevan at heydon.org Fri Jun 26 10:47:49 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <199806260844.BAA20537@squeep.com> Message-ID: Speaking of NeXTs, I have just got a lead on some available in the UK. The mail I got is: Unconfirmed reports are that I may be able to lay my hands on, like, TWENTY NeXT slabs for the princely sum of 70 quid each. My mind immediately turns to CamNet and the denizens within as sinks for such wonderful but antique hardware. Note that if you want a 17" colour monitor, then that is at the ultimate ripoff price of another 60 quid. Both figures EXCLUDE VAT at the usual rate, apparently. Machine specs are: TurboColour NeXTStation. 68040/33 / 32MB / 500MB SCSI + Keyboard + Mouse + Soundbox. (as black as, like, the blackest thing - none more black) (1138x932@12bit) Monitors: NeXT MegaPixel Colour Monitors (Black cool case) 17" @ 60 quid 21" @ 150 quid If you are interested then drop me an email and I will coordinate things with the person I got this email from. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From gim at hitec-uk.com Thu Jun 25 00:27:38 1998 From: gim at hitec-uk.com (gim@hitec-uk.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. Message-ID: <8025662E.001DBC62.00@hitec-uk.com> Who do I have to kill? Are they so black you can see your reflection in them? :) Grant.. Software Engineer, Hitec Aberdeen. Kevan Heydon on 06/26/98 04:47:49 PM Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" cc: Subject: Re: NeXT cubes or slabs. Speaking of NeXTs, I have just got a lead on some available in the UK. The mail I got is: Unconfirmed reports are that I may be able to lay my hands on, like, TWENTY NeXT slabs for the princely sum of 70 quid each. My mind immediately turns to CamNet and the denizens within as sinks for such wonderful but antique hardware. Note that if you want a 17" colour monitor, then that is at the ultimate ripoff price of another 60 quid. Both figures EXCLUDE VAT at the usual rate, apparently. Machine specs are: TurboColour NeXTStation. 68040/33 / 32MB / 500MB SCSI + Keyboard + Mouse + Soundbox. (as black as, like, the blackest thing - none more black) (1138x932@12bit) Monitors: NeXT MegaPixel Colour Monitors (Black cool case) 17" @ 60 quid 21" @ 150 quid If you are interested then drop me an email and I will coordinate things with the person I got this email from. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From william at ans.net Fri Jun 26 11:57:23 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: IBM RS6000 for sale In-Reply-To: <9805268988.AA898876701@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: > Hey! You're right! Our 320 machines (320E, upgraded from 320 something > else I think, equivalent to 320H) have ethernet on a microchannel card. > That shouldn't be too hard to find... They are a bit hard to find, and I do not think a PS/2 "dumb" MCA ethernet card will work. I have seen more token ring cards around, probably because nobody wants them. For a while, IBM repackaged 320s as model 6011 Network Processors - essentially a AIX box with two or three routing cards. They were a spin off from the NSFnet routers, although the 6011s routing cards were not homemade. I do not know of the 6011 could handle the HSSI or FDDI cards - I have never seen any. > We've had our 320s for six years or more, our 375 for four or five. We > are thinking of getting something faster but it's hard to match the FP > performance on anything modern. With luck, when (if) we do, I'll get > the old ones. FWIW the fastest FP we found in our sort of price range > was the RS/6000 model 397. The last of the POWER RISC machines, much > faster than the Power PC RS/6000s... The POWER2 series (990 leaps to mind) is an excellent floating point machine. Look at the LinPack rating, and the results are impressive (not that one should treat LinPack as the bible!). > But I fear we're a bit off topic here... Yeah, but so is the whole NeXT thread! Give it a year or two... William Donzelli william@ans.net From thomas100 at home.com Fri Jun 26 09:17:29 1998 From: thomas100 at home.com (Thomas Pfaff) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. Message-ID: <199806261753.JAA10752@next.ireadyco.com> Actually the slabs are very common in the U.S evidently because of the contract NeXT had with the CIA. Cubes aren't that much rarer... just more expensive. Two places where you can go for NeXT equipment are: http://www.deepspacetech.com http://www.orb.com The latter (Sam Goldberger) is in Mill Valley, California. I think Deep Space is in New Mexico. There used to be some guy on the east coast but he seems to have disappeared... odd since he seemed to have most of the CIA inventory. I seem to remember his warehouse lease expired and he had some kind of blowout sale last year! Since I'm an Openstep developer, in my mind they aren't really antiques... though the CPU clock rates are low by todays standards they still perform very well for day-to-day use because the software (OS, application framework and display mode) layers were engineered very efficiently. The platform is just barely ten years old and still very modern if not futuristic. The "PrinterWorks" I believe, still sells laserprinters for them. With these, you can essentially turn a NeXT Cube or station into a Win 95/NT printing engine via Samba networking, have it run your web server, and use it to run many applications that would make both Windows and plain old Unix jealous if they were jealous kinds of Operating Systems. If all else fails, there's also comp.sys.next.marketplace, where everyone is trying to sell what they have right now. Collectable items include extra DSP memory, the ancient ISDN modem that worked through the DSP port, Ariel Digital Microphones, Digital Ears [a Digital Sound I/O system]. Also... the 20 " monitors were _beautiful_ to work nexst to. Before I sold mine I always felt like I was almost living inside my NeXT. But they are oh so heavy! Cubes are ultra-ergonomic. The cases very somewhat depending on when they were made. I like the cases the early 68030 machines... they had less ventilation I think but they looked cooler... more metalic somehow. thomas100@home.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Jun 26 12:04:24 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Doug Spence wrote: > I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its > original motherboard, without opening the case. I saw one at the > Salvation Army today and was considering dragging it home (though I > decided to take another machine instead). > > The machine did have a cassette port in the back, with a femal DIN > connector. Is this attached to the motherboard? Generally, on the original motherboard there are two DIN connectors: one for keyboard and one for cassette. I'm not sure if the cassette connector was present on the 256K motherboard. Something tells me a certain Englander named Tony Duell either knows this or is reaching up to his bookshelf to pull down his technical guide to find out for sure. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 26 12:22:20 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? Message-ID: This is not sure-fire, but I've found that if the big label on the back does NOT have the notice "contains copyrighted code..." that it's most likely an original version. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Doug Spence [mailto:ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca] Sent: Friday, June 26, 1998 2:01 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? Hi, I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its original motherboard, without opening the case. I saw one at the Salvation Army today and was considering dragging it home (though I decided to take another machine instead). The machine did have a cassette port in the back, with a femal DIN connector. Is this attached to the motherboard? The machine also had a full complement of cards in its slots, with lots of ports coming out of it. And a 3.5" drive that was poorly fitted into the case. I'm wondering if I should make a trip downtown sometime this weekend, with the car. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jun 26 12:30:35 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. Message-ID: <003e01bda128$266ec7c0$676fbcc1@hotze> >The latter (Sam Goldberger) is in Mill Valley, California. I think >Deep Space is in New Mexico. There used to be some guy on the east >coast but he seems to have disappeared... odd since he seemed to have >most of the CIA inventory. And what, prey tell, is so odd about that? ;-) >Since I'm an Openstep developer, in my mind they aren't really >antiques... though the CPU clock rates are low by todays standards >they still perform very well for day-to-day use because the software >(OS, application framework and display mode) layers were engineered >very efficiently. The platform is just barely ten years old and >still very modern if not futuristic. Yep. I actually think that Apple could appeal more to the design market by releasing a new PPC based NeXT. That would give the platform a significant boost. Especially becasue I've heard that Apple's going to be making $500-$1500 devices. PPC NeXTs could sell for well over $5-$10, even for a lower-end one. >The "PrinterWorks" I believe, still sells laserprinters for them. >With these, you can essentially turn a NeXT Cube or station into a >Win 95/NT printing engine via Samba networking, have it run your web >server, and use it to run many applications that would make both >Windows and plain old Unix jealous if they were jealous kinds of >Operating Systems. Sounds cool. But getting more and more off topic... >If all else fails, there's also comp.sys.next.marketplace, where >everyone is trying to sell what they have right now. ALL RIGHT!!! There's a NeXT in my future! >Collectable items include extra DSP memory, the ancient ISDN modem >that worked through the DSP port, Ariel Digital Microphones, Digital >Ears [a Digital Sound I/O system]. DSP Memory? DUDE!!! >Also... the 20 " monitors were _beautiful_ to work nexst to. Before >I sold mine I always felt like I was almost living inside my NeXT. >But they are oh so heavy! Well, it could have been inside of a titanium alloy casing... >Cubes are ultra-ergonomic. The cases very somewhat depending on >when they were made. I like the cases the early 68030 machines... >they had less ventilation I think but they looked cooler... more >metalic somehow. No kidding. That's the big catch to NeXT's. The looks. Once you see one, you can't really sleep easy until one's inside of your house. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jun 26 12:39:37 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT Resources? Message-ID: <004401bda129$68154f40$676fbcc1@hotze> Hi. Does anyone know of (or have) a page on NeXT's with photos, docs, etc.? Thanks, Tim From g at kurico.com Fri Jun 26 12:59:38 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <003e01bda128$266ec7c0$676fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: > Yep. I actually think that Apple could appeal more to the design market > by releasing a new PPC based NeXT. That would give the platform a > significant boost. Especially becasue I've heard that Apple's going to be > making $500-$1500 devices. PPC NeXTs could sell for well over $5-$10, > even for a lower-end one. Actually they (NeXT) had started work on a dual Motorola 88000 machines before NeXT dropped out of the hardware biz. Some former NeXT hardware guys went on to form a company called FirePower to design PREP?, CHRP? compliant PPC computers. They released a few but were then bought by Motorola and of course we all know what happened to PREP/CHRP/WhatEVER. George From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jun 26 13:15:53 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)) Message-ID: <00a301bda12f$510bbae0$676fbcc1@hotze> I LOVE that idea. Now, it'd need to be EPROM, especially nowadays with bug fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a way cool concept. Which computers did this? Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, June 26, 1998 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...) >>> The Mac Classic contains a complete System 6 installation in ROM that >>> you can boot from. Sorry but I don't have the docs handy, but I think >>> if you press Command-Option-Shift-X on startup, it'll boot from the >>> ROM. Another way that should work is Command-Option-Shift-Backspace -- >> >>Actually, the keys to press are: >> >> Cmd-Option-X-O >> >>That's the letter O, not the number zero. > >Wow, it has the complete OS in ROM? I didn't know any of the Mac's did >that. Are there any others or was this a one shot experiment that failed? >The OS in ROM is the main thing I like about the Atari ST's. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Jun 26 13:24:21 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. Message-ID: <00a801bda12f$a51518c0$676fbcc1@hotze> Sounds cool. Many of the greatest design concepts are stopped... not because of bugs, not because of tiredness of developers, but because of the only thing obstructing innovation: Money. Tim -----Original Message----- From: George Currie To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, June 26, 1998 9:04 PM Subject: Re: NeXT cubes or slabs. Actually they (NeXT) had started work on a dual Motorola 88000 machines before NeXT dropped out of the hardware biz. Some former NeXT hardware guys went on to form a company called FirePower to design PREP?, CHRP? compliant PPC computers. They released a few but were then bought by Motorola and of course we all know what happened to PREP/CHRP/WhatEVER. George From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Jun 26 13:28:18 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT Resources? In-Reply-To: <004401bda129$68154f40$676fbcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Jun 26, 98 08:39:37 pm Message-ID: <199806261828.LAA20937@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 362 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/70d9ef3f/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Jun 26 13:29:57 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. Message-ID: <19980626182958.22774.qmail@hotmail.com> If you ask me, CHRP was worthless, like the rest of the Apple cloning program. In the end, not a soul made a cent off that whole thing, and many people were stuck with machines that didn't have warranty / support. Lastly, what's so good about a DB25 serial port on a Mac anyway? Now USB is good. Could NeXTs run any non-NeXT software? >Sounds cool. Many of the greatest design concepts are stopped... not >because of bugs, not because of tiredness of developers, but because of the >only thing obstructing innovation: Money. > >Tim >Actually they (NeXT) had started work on a dual Motorola 88000 machines >before NeXT dropped out of the hardware biz. Some former NeXT hardware >guys went on to form a company called FirePower to design PREP?, CHRP? >compliant PPC computers. They released a few but were then bought by >Motorola and of course we all know what happened to >PREP/CHRP/WhatEVER. > >George > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 26 13:39:32 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: OS's In ROMs (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)) Message-ID: operating systems in rom? that seems fairly popular. my atari portfolio has dos in rom as well as my tandy 100 has apps in rom. even the original 2011 IBM PS1 had dos in rom. david In a message dated 98-06-26 14:22:44 EDT, you write: << I LOVE that idea. Now, it'd need to be EPROM, especially nowadays with bug fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a way cool concept. Which computers did this? Ciao, >> From g at kurico.com Fri Jun 26 13:37:25 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <19980626182958.22774.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Well the original NeXT's shipped with a trial copy of SoftPC. You could also get a box that given Mac roms, could also run Mac software. George > If you ask me, CHRP was worthless, like the rest of the Apple cloning > program. In the end, not a soul made a cent off that whole thing, and many > people were stuck with machines that didn't have warranty / support. > Lastly, what's so good about a DB25 serial port on a Mac anyway? Now USB > is good. Could NeXTs run any non-NeXT software? > > >Sounds cool. Many of the greatest design concepts are stopped... not > >because of bugs, not because of tiredness of developers, but because of > the > >only thing obstructing innovation: Money. > > > >Tim > >Actually they (NeXT) had started work on a dual Motorola 88000 machines > >before NeXT dropped out of the hardware biz. Some former NeXT hardware > >guys went on to form a company called FirePower to design PREP?, CHRP? > >compliant PPC computers. They released a few but were then bought by > >Motorola and of course we all know what happened to PREP/CHRP/WhatEVER. > > > >George > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Jun 26 13:45:06 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 457 Message-ID: <199806261845.OAA27021@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: ] Picked up a cartridge for the Coco t'other day, and I'm not sure what it ] is. It says "Cat. No. 26-3129" and "Color Computer Controller" on it. Has ] the card-edge connector where it plugs in, then another, smaller one on the ] back end. My guess is it's a floppy controller? Here is a URL for you: http://members.tripod.com/~qtv/index-7.html It lists Radio Shack items and catalog numbers. According to that, what you've got is a "Color Thinline Disk #0 Kit 349.95". I suppose that part number was for the entire kit, drive and controller both. Bill. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri Jun 26 14:47:03 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: OS's In ROMs (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes In-Reply-To: <5448@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806261851.NAA06966@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Not to mention the HP-110 Portables . . . > operating systems in rom? that seems fairly popular. my atari portfolio has > dos in rom as well as my tandy 100 has apps in rom. even the original 2011 IBM > PS1 had dos in rom. > > david > > In a message dated 98-06-26 14:22:44 EDT, you write: > > << I LOVE that idea. Now, it'd need to be EPROM, especially nowadays with bug > fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a way > cool concept. Which computers did this? > Ciao, >> > > > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From william at ans.net Fri Jun 26 14:09:13 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <00a801bda12f$a51518c0$676fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: > Sounds cool. Many of the greatest design concepts are stopped... not > because of bugs, not because of tiredness of developers, but because of the > only thing obstructing innovation: Money. Actually, the 88000 was killed off because Sun went with the SPARCs for their next generation of machines, the Sun-4 series. SGI was not much of a player at the time, and NeXT never really got a good foothold in the workstation market. Data Generals AViiON machines, at least the first series, were the only 88000 based boxes to hit the market, and they failed horribly. Folks, I do not want to bad mouth a fine series of machines from NeXT, but lets face it - they really never had a chance. It took a company the size of IBM to muscle into the workstation market in the late 1980s/early 1990s. NeXT just could not do it. Some mistakes from the NeXT engineers did not help (but we have covered those before). William Donzelli william@ans.net From g at kurico.com Fri Jun 26 14:37:26 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: References: <00a801bda12f$a51518c0$676fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: > > Sounds cool. Many of the greatest design concepts are stopped... not > > because of bugs, not because of tiredness of developers, but because of > > the only thing obstructing innovation: Money. > > Actually, the 88000 was killed off because Sun went with the SPARCs for > their next generation of machines, the Sun-4 series. SGI was not much of a > player at the time, and NeXT never really got a good foothold in the > workstation market. Data Generals AViiON machines, at least the first > series, were the only 88000 based boxes to hit the market, and they failed > horribly. IIRC, Sun went with Sparc because Motorola was dragging their heals with regards to RISC. It was my understanding at the time that Sun really didn't want to go their own way, they just couldn't make Mot get off their butt's. By the time Mot came around and came out with the 88000, it was too late. All the major workstation manufacturers had already picked their camps. I just wanted to bring this up because the above posting makes it sound like Sun chose the Sparc _over_ the 88000. Had the 88000 been around when Sun was ready with the 4 series, then all Sun's would be 88000 machines right now. Which would have had some interesting implications for the PPC since it would have been logical for Apple to also utilize the 88000. Also, wasn't SGI already commited to the MIPS camp already (i.e. before the 88000 was available)? George From william at ans.net Fri Jun 26 15:36:53 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > IIRC, Sun went with Sparc because Motorola was dragging their heals with > regards to RISC. Come to think of it, the 88000 was rather late in the game. > I just wanted to bring this up because the above posting makes it sound like > Sun chose the Sparc _over_ the 88000. Had the 88000 been around when Sun > was ready with the 4 series, then all Sun's would be 88000 machines right > now. I think they did choose it over the 88000, based on the Motorola's tardiness. I was quite clear that the 68000 was running out of steam. I would think it would be a logical decision to can the 88000 if it was not ready. That is just a basic engineering decision that effects the entire family of products. The rest of the Sun-4 architecture (SPARC) is not very different from Sun-3 (OK, the MMU is a bit different) - many bigger Sun-3 boxes could actually turn into SPARC boxes with a CPU card change. > Also, wasn't SGI already commited to the MIPS camp already (i.e. before the > 88000 was available)? I am sure they were thinking about it. The SGI shift from the 68000 to MIPS occurred just about the same time that Sun shifted from the 68000 to SPARC. I think the head of SGI (I forget his name) was a big RISC fanatic, somehow tied to the MIPS architecture. William Donzelli william@ans.net From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Fri Jun 26 16:00:28 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: Heads-up: Cleveland OH, mini's etc Message-ID: <199806262100.RAA28046@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Nasa Lewis has some old computer stuff up for bid, including a couple PDP-11's and an IBM 7015 (whatever that is!). Here are some URLs: http://ltwebp.lerc.nasa.gov/980010detail.htm http://ltwebp.lerc.nasa.gov/sales.htm A partial list follows. Note that there were several of some of these items, and some of them had different notes attached. Inspection day is Thursday, July 9th from 7:30 am to 3:00. Bids will be opened Wednesday, July 15th at 1:00 pm. I don't know if there is an earlier deadline for getting bids in. There are other rules too (of course). See those web pages for more info. PROCESSOR, DIGITAL DATA CONCURRENT COMPUTER 3250XP 600 # 30" X 45" X 50" COMPUTER, MINI IBM 7015 3'X2'X6' 300# CONTROL, COMPUTER STORAGE TECHNOLOGY CORP 4670 30"X24"X52" 400# TAPE DRIVE UNIT STORAGE TECHNOLOGY CORP 4674 30"X31"X52" 450# DISK DRIVE UNIT SEAGATE 47177701 COMPUTER, MINI SOLBOURNE COMPUTER 5E900 4'X4'X6', 500 LBS. TAPE DRIVE UNIT TRIMM IND DA20V1R PART OF T/N 1109700 COMPUTER, MICRO CONCURRENT COMPUTER 6605 80 # 32 CHANNEL PROCESSOR, DIGITAL DATA DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP MNC11DA IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# INPUT MODULE DIGITAL MNCDI IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# OUTPUT MODULE DIGITAL MNCDO IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# CHASSIS, EXPANSION CONCURRENT COMPUTER 20 # 16 CHANNELS DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL01A IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL02 IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# COMPUTER, MINI DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP 11-24XX DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP 70-12130 COMPUTER, MINI DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP PDP11/24 DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL02 27"X19"X11",60#, WON'T POWER UP DISK DRIVE UNIT IBM 3380 44"X32"X70" 325# If only I had a basement, a truck, and a couple days of spare time... Have fun! Bill. From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Fri Jun 26 16:43:56 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: QUICK QUESTION: MicroVax Console Port In-Reply-To: <003b01bd9716$e8537460$bf27a2ce@cliffgre> Message-ID: What is the pinout of the MicroVax II db-9 console port? Thanks... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 12:54:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:51 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 25, 98 11:08:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4949 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/41d2e2a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 12:57:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron In-Reply-To: <35931A1B.8D0E21C6@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jun 25, 98 11:48:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 468 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/7a616123/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 13:14:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: TRS-80 video synch chaos In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 26, 98 02:16:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/a05172dd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 13:27:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Will CD-ROM readers exist in 20 years? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980626100322.00ceaaa0@pc> from "John Foust" at Jun 26, 98 10:03:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1028 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/6f4e2fe8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 13:30:04 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 26, 98 10:04:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 822 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/8eb05730/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 13:34:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: "No name" S-100 computer In-Reply-To: <199806260548.WAA00374@sweden.it.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Jun 25, 98 10:48:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1190 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/7f9b7c8d/attachment.ksh From pb0aia at iaehv.nl Fri Jun 26 17:14:25 1998 From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: QUICK QUESTION: MicroVax Console Port Message-ID: <199806262214.AAA27990@IAEhv.nl> On 1998-06-26 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to pb0aia@iaehv.nl cl>What is the pinout of the MicroVax II db-9 console port? cl>Thanks... cl>Anthony Clifton - Wirehead VAX 9 pin console PC 9 pin serial PC 25 pin serial 1 - Shield GND 2 - Received data 1 - Shield ground 2 - Transmitted data 3 - Transmitted data 2 - Transmitted data 3 - Received data 5 - Signal GND 3 - Received data 7 - Signal GND 1 - DCD 7 - Signal GND 8 - sense console 1 4 - DTR 8 - DCD 9 - sense console 2 6 - DSR 20 - DTR 7 - RTS 6 - DSR 8 - CTS 4 - RTS 5 - CTS The cable VAX PC9 PC25 2 --------- 2 3 3 --------- 3 2 7 --------- 5 7 8 -+ +- 1 8 | | 9 -+ +- 4 20 | +- 6 6 +- 7 4 | +- 8 5 Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 26 17:22:57 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Sun and the CPU Wars (was Re: NeXT cubes or slabs.) In-Reply-To: William Donzelli's message of Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:09:13 -0400 (EDT) References: Message-ID: <199806262222.PAA15706@daemonweed.reanimators.org> William Donzelli wrote: > Actually, the 88000 was killed off because Sun went with the SPARCs for > their next generation of machines, the Sun-4 series. So...how did/do you read the 386i? Back then, I read it as Sun hedging its bets against a total victory by Intel in the CPU Wars of the late 1980s: they could sell Motorola, Intel, and SPARC today (today being then, not now) and promise to be around tomorrow no matter what the CPU of tomorrow looked like. -Frank McConnell From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 26 17:51:56 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: new additions (and plenty of em!) Message-ID: <60891290.3594260d@aol.com> some guy at work knew i enjoyed collecting old stuff so he contacted me and gave me all this: 15 apple scsi peripheral cables, 7 that were never opened 3 //e enhancement kits. 1 in original packaging. also some loose chips thrown in with the rest of the junk i got. localtalk locking connector kit. 2 ext 80 col card 1 in original packaging never opened. 1 imagewriter 2 /lq localtalk option 2 mouse //e 1 never opened //gs mem exp card 2 supr serial card 1 never opened 1 mouse //e workstation card never opened 6 apple 256k mem exp upgrade kits. only 1 was opened. microtek language card unidisk 5.25 controller undisk 3.5 controller many user manuals for apple // and mac some never opened tandy dcm3 modem 2 ext 80 col card 1 scsi cable extender grappler card ibm 2.88 floppy drive. has standard form factor unlike ps2 2.88 floppy. proprinter ribbons ps2 mouse never used in box ps2 tape backup for qic80 tapes with matching install b and c kits appleshare pc program future domain isa scsi card 2 ps2 4meg kits never used 1 16meg ecc mem 1 box of 10 2meg upgrade kits. never used! mca 16/4 token ring nic mca 2-8 meg mem expansion card 11 boca 512/1meg svga isa video cards never used apple tutorial disks never used. also a few other minor things i cant remember. everything above remain in their original boxes im cancelling a fishing trip to go back to his house tonight and pick up some more things. he used to either work for skool system or was with a servicer involved with skools which is where this probably all came from. i'll update when i get the other goodies. unfortunately, no lisa stuff, although it cant hurt to ask. i'll probably keep most of this although i bet i could make a killing hyping it up for sale on ebay... 8-( david From william at ans.net Fri Jun 26 17:55:36 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Sun and the CPU Wars (was Re: NeXT cubes or slabs.) In-Reply-To: <199806262222.PAA15706@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: > So...how did/do you read the 386i? A bad mistake. God only knows what they were thinking - the 68020 and 68030 machines were quite capable at the time. Wasn't the i386 pretty much a failure by the time the Sun-4s came out. William Donzelli william@ans.net From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 26 17:56:40 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > I've passed an inventory of my collection to some serious collectors in > the UK. They know that if I cease to be, they are to find all the > machines on that list (at least). The problem is that many of the > machines are partially dismantled, and that it's not obvious that the > large cardboard box of PCBs downstairs goes with the pile of metal panels > in the spare bedroom to make an image processor/display. I'm pretty new to the collecting game, but I'm already having trouble keeping machines, parts, software, manuals, and releated stuff tractable. I've picked-up some barcode reading equipment with the idea that one day I'll encode the contents of all of my boxes, and tie it to all together with a database that include historical info, condition info, and other notes. Has anybody already done something like this? If so, can I steal your scheme? -- Doug From tomowad at earthlink.net Fri Jun 26 17:59:24 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Message-ID: <199806262259.PAA21054@sweden.it.earthlink.net> >But seriously, while _I'd_ only want to write a book that's correct and >complete (and therefore does document every last gate in the device), I >guess few people would ever want to read it. You could release it in pdf format on the internet with a $5 shareware fee, or something. I'd certainly buy it, and I'm sure lots of other people (such as the ones who subscribe to this list) would as well. The information is invaluable. Tom Owad Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 26 17:01:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980626170111.2b8ff4f6@intellistar.net> At 05:01 AM 6/26/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi, > >I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its >original motherboard, without opening the case. The BIOS version and date should tell you. I think I remember reading that IBM was very consistant about changing the BIOS version and date when they made changes. I don't have anything handy that lists all the dates and numbers though. Joe From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Jun 26 18:08:37 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Message-ID: <19980626230837.21268.qmail@hotmail.com> Sure, we'd all buy, at least in the interest of solidarity, but I'm not sure how many others would. Either way, I don't know how many people are alive now and able to access the 'net that have ever touched a PERQ >You could release it in pdf format on the internet with a $5 shareware >fee, or something. I'd certainly buy it, and I'm sure lots of other >people (such as the ones who subscribe to this list) would as well. The >information is invaluable. > >Tom Owad > >Sysop of Caesarville Online >Client software at: > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From manney at lrbcg.com Fri Jun 26 18:08:17 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? Message-ID: <01bda157$4de19ce0$0c28a2ce@laptop> >Hi, > >I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its >original motherboard, without opening the case. I saw one at the >Salvation Army today and was considering dragging it home (though I >decided to take another machine instead). > >The machine did have a cassette port in the back, with a femal DIN >connector. Is this attached to the motherboard? Yes, it is. > >The machine also had a full complement of cards in its slots, with lots of >ports coming out of it. And a 3.5" drive that was poorly fitted into the >case. The 3.5" drive requires a special controller card that I find rare. Snag it! > >I'm wondering if I should make a trip downtown sometime this weekend, with >the car. > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > > From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Jun 26 18:29:22 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Heads-up: Cleveland OH, mini's etc In-Reply-To: <199806262100.RAA28046@dgs.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Jun 26, 98 05:00:28 pm Message-ID: <199806262329.QAA21340@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/a37ec10d/attachment.ksh From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Fri Jun 26 18:26:17 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Sun and the CPU Wars (was Re: NeXT cubes or slabs.) In-Reply-To: <199806262222.PAA15706@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 26, 98 03:22:57 pm Message-ID: <199806262326.TAA18489@shell.monmouth.com> > > William Donzelli wrote: > > Actually, the 88000 was killed off because Sun went with the SPARCs for > > their next generation of machines, the Sun-4 series. > > So...how did/do you read the 386i? Back then, I read it as Sun > hedging its bets against a total victory by Intel in the CPU Wars of > the late 1980s: they could sell Motorola, Intel, and SPARC today > (today being then, not now) and promise to be around tomorrow no > matter what the CPU of tomorrow looked like. > > -Frank McConnell > I read the 386i as the Unix machine which had some dos compatibility possibilites. Until the SunPC software SunPC card for the Sparc there was no way the Word/Excel business types could use both Sun and Win easily. I think they would've had a better shot with a better Intel Processor. The 386i was the best they had at that time. The 486i would've been much better for them -- but was dead before final introduction. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Fri Jun 26 18:38:02 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Heads-up: Cleveland OH, mini's etc In-Reply-To: <199806262329.QAA21340@squeep.com> from "Seth J. Morabito" at Jun 26, 98 04:29:22 pm Message-ID: <199806262338.TAA25591@shell.monmouth.com> > I'm beginning to think there's never been a PDP-11 in California. > In the past three years that I've been looking, I've never seen a PDP-11 > come available in the Bay Area, not even so much as the common 11/23. > All this cool stuff always pops up on the other side of the country > (where I used to live, which makes it all the worse :) > > > > Sorry, just wanted to rant and get it out of my system :) > > -Seth Not true. It's just that California tends to upgrade the technology quicker than the east coast which holds on to the old iron until it becomes unsupported. California ran Vaxen while NJ still used 11/70's. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From jruschme at exit109.com Fri Jun 26 18:35:04 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Sun and the CPU Wars (was Re: NeXT cubes or slabs.) References: <199806262326.TAA18489@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <35943028.7081E658@exit109.com> Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > > William Donzelli wrote: > > > Actually, the 88000 was killed off because Sun went with the SPARCs for > > > their next generation of machines, the Sun-4 series. > > > > So...how did/do you read the 386i? Back then, I read it as Sun > > hedging its bets against a total victory by Intel in the CPU Wars of > > the late 1980s: they could sell Motorola, Intel, and SPARC today > > (today being then, not now) and promise to be around tomorrow no > > matter what the CPU of tomorrow looked like. Well, given the number of x86s running some variant of Unix, it looks like they had the right idea, but too early. Imagine Solaris on a Sun 686i.... :-) > I read the 386i as the Unix machine which had some dos compatibility > possibilites. > > Until the SunPC software SunPC card for the Sparc there was no way the > Word/Excel business types could use both Sun and Win easily. Well, two things... First, remember that this was 1989, so Windows is not an issue. Basically, it had to be able to run Lotus 1-2-3, Harvard Graphics, Word Perfect, etc. Second, SunPC and the hardware card have their roots all the way back to the Sun 3 era. IIRC, there was a VME bus 286 coprocessor card. > I think they would've had a better shot with a better Intel Processor. > The 386i was the best they had at that time. The 486i would've been > much better for them -- but was dead before final introduction. Supposedly there was a couple of protypes, but that's all. IMHO, the real problem with the 386i was the same one as with the AT&T UnixPC. Basically, it wasn't a real engineering workstation, so the traditional Sun buyers couldn't get interested and it wasn't a PC, so the suits couldn 't get interested. To some degree this split still exists. SunPC, Wabi, etc. are all great products, but their real demand, when all is said and done, is to allow a few "key" applications (MS Office, mostly) to run in an otherwise pure Unix environment. <<>> P.S. Out of curiousity, how "interesting" is a 386i from a collectability standpoint? I may have an opportunity to get one, but is it really worth it? From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Fri Jun 26 18:35:43 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Heads-up: Cleveland OH, mini's etc In-Reply-To: <199806262100.RAA28046@dgs.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Jun 26, 98 05:00:28 pm Message-ID: <199806262335.TAA24137@shell.monmouth.com> > > Nasa Lewis has some old computer stuff up for bid, including a > couple PDP-11's and an IBM 7015 (whatever that is!). Here are > some URLs: > > http://ltwebp.lerc.nasa.gov/980010detail.htm > http://ltwebp.lerc.nasa.gov/sales.htm Slick... > > A partial list follows. Note that there were several of some > of these items, and some of them had different notes attached. > Inspection day is Thursday, July 9th from 7:30 am to 3:00. > Bids will be opened Wednesday, July 15th at 1:00 pm. I don't > know if there is an earlier deadline for getting bids in. There > are other rules too (of course). See those web pages for more > info. > > PROCESSOR, DIGITAL DATA > CONCURRENT COMPUTER 3250XP > 600 # 30" X 45" X 50" Also known as a Perkin Elmer 3250XP (used for space shuttle simulation among other stuff). This was a multiprocessor 32 bit mini real-time box. Architecture like an IBM 360 (kind of) . Ran OS/32 (and as a single CPU Unix -possibly Edition Vii and definitely Xelos System V) > > COMPUTER, MINI > IBM 7015 > 3'X2'X6' 300# > 7015 is the Deskside RS6000 box. The problem is it's a 7015-xxx with the XXX being the RS6000 model number. > CONTROL, COMPUTER > STORAGE TECHNOLOGY CORP 4670 > 30"X24"X52" 400# > > TAPE DRIVE UNIT > STORAGE TECHNOLOGY CORP 4674 > 30"X31"X52" 450# > > DISK DRIVE UNIT > SEAGATE 47177701 > > COMPUTER, MINI > SOLBOURNE COMPUTER 5E900 > 4'X4'X6', 500 LBS. Ah probably a Sun-work alike. > > TAPE DRIVE UNIT > TRIMM IND DA20V1R > PART OF T/N 1109700 > > COMPUTER, MICRO > CONCURRENT COMPUTER 6605 > 80 # 32 CHANNEL > A concurrent (Masscomp) RTU box 6605 -- 5000 -> 68000/68010/68020 6000 -> 68030's > PROCESSOR, DIGITAL DATA > DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP MNC11DA > IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# > A great PDP11 find. An 11/23 based Real time data ack box...Neat lab computer. > INPUT MODULE > DIGITAL MNCDI > IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# > > OUTPUT MODULE > DIGITAL MNCDO > IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# Digital input/output for Minc above. > > CHASSIS, EXPANSION > CONCURRENT COMPUTER > 20 # 16 CHANNELS > > DISK DRIVE UNIT > DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL01A > IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# 5mb > > DISK DRIVE UNIT > DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL02 > IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# 10mb > > COMPUTER, MINI > DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP 11-24XX Unibus based F-11 (11/23 chipset) (up to 2mw addressing) > > DISK DRIVE UNIT > DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP 70-12130 > > COMPUTER, MINI > DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP PDP11/24 > > DISK DRIVE UNIT > DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL02 > 27"X19"X11",60#, WON'T POWER UP > > DISK DRIVE UNIT > IBM 3380 > 44"X32"X70" 325# > > If only I had a basement, a truck, and a couple days of spare time... > > Have fun! > Bill. > > If I was only in the area. I'd make the time. I worked for Concurrent after the Masscomp merger, DEC and IBM and worked on most of the boxes mentioned. I wish I could afford the shipping to NJ. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 17:33:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)) In-Reply-To: <00a301bda12f$510bbae0$676fbcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Jun 26, 98 09:15:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 837 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/6ab4119e/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 26 19:15:50 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: QUICK QUESTION: MicroVax Console Port In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > What is the pinout of the MicroVax II db-9 console port? > > Thanks... > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 26 19:26:43 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? In-Reply-To: <01bda157$4de19ce0$0c28a2ce@laptop> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, PG Manney wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its > >original motherboard, without opening the case. I saw one at the > >Salvation Army today and was considering dragging it home (though I > >decided to take another machine instead). > > > >The machine did have a cassette port in the back, with a femal DIN > >connector. Is this attached to the motherboard? > > > Yes, it is. > > > >The machine also had a full complement of cards in its slots, with lots of > >ports coming out of it. And a 3.5" drive that was poorly fitted into the > >case. > > > The 3.5" drive requires a special controller card that I find rare. Snag it! How many would you like? - don > > > >I'm wondering if I should make a trip downtown sometime this weekend, with > >the car. > > > > > >Doug Spence > >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > > > > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 26 19:46:23 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Doug Spence wrote: > > I finally went back to check on that "Wang PC-002" I asked about earlier. > It was a bit more scratched up, but it hadn't moved an inch in the past > two and a half(?) weeks. > > I managed to locate its keyboard, as well as the keyboard for an aparently > keyboardless Tandy 1000TX that was in another part of the building, so I > decided to drag the Wang machine home. **** Agony deleted **** **** Begin Ecstacy **** > Anyway, it sure is a curious beast. And HUGE, to my eyes. It's not quite > as big as I reported before, but it's BIG. The closest offhand and > possibly innacurate comparison I could make is to a friend's MicroVax, but > I don't know what kind of MicroVax that is. > > If I sit it vertically (a position the box looks very comfortable in), it > measures about 15" high, by 6.5" wide, by 23" long. > > It has two floppy drives mounted in the front: one half-height 5.25" > drive, and one full-hieght 5.25" drive. > > In the back, I can see the backs of various cards. One of them has the > connector for the keyboard (4-pin DIN) as well as one serial and one > parallel port, so it must be the motherboard. Beside that (or above, > depending on orientation) is a board with a sticker reading "PM032-B 512K > Memory Expansion". Next to that, is what appears to be an empty slot, and > then there is what appears to be some kind of networking card. It has two > coaxial cable connectors and a toggle switch. There is another card > beside (or above) that, with no ports or labels, but I can see chips > through the air holes. Beside (or above) the mystery card is a board with > a label reading "PM101 IBM Mono Emulation". It has an 8-pin DIN connector > and a 5-pin DIN connector, which I would guess are for monitor and PC > keyboard(?). > > Does anyone know the pinouts of the various ports, or anything else about > this machine? Will it read PC disks or do I need to boot it up with some > wacky Wang-format disk? Does the machine require some kind of terminal, > or will a monitor connect into the back of the IBM Emulation board and let > me see what's going on? Cannot help on the pinouts, but I think their monitor connector was unique. You need to boot it with Wang disks. They are in PC format, but the DOS is different. I have a set that I can copy when you get video going. As I recall, the IBM Emulator board really hacks the WangDOS to be more like PCDOS and it will then run many - but not all - PCDOS programs. Don't believe the D-subs on the back are for monitor and keyboard, but it may be a different board than I ever saw. > The sticker on the side (top) of the machine says it's a PC-002, but the > sticker on the back says it's a PC-P002. > > The keyboard has a lot of word processing functions on it. That is what Wang really got established in. > Anyway, I haven't opened it up yet, or done anything with it but look at > it. Disassembly looks like it might be difficult, because I have to slip > the innards through the full length metal sleeve. I won't be up to that > until my arms recover. I've even got bruises and some kind of blood > blisters or something, from carrying that thing. :/ Stand it up on its face and lift the cover off. Everything inside is in a heavy guage wire frame. - don > I probably won't have time to play with it today as I promised to install > NetBSD 1.3.2 and some UNIX software on my Amiga 3000 instead of coming to > work. (And look at the time. :) ) > > > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 26 19:16:35 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Sun and the CPU Wars (was Re: NeXT cubes or slabs.) In-Reply-To: William Donzelli's message of Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:55:36 -0400 (EDT) References: Message-ID: <199806270016.RAA19238@daemonweed.reanimators.org> William Donzelli wrote: > > So...how did/do you read the 386i? > > A bad mistake. I gather that is what Sun feels these days too. A while back I asked a friend within Sun who has been able to find interesting stuff for me from time to time whether he could get certain information about the 386i[1], and that is about the answer I got: don't ask about the 386i, no-one wants to remember. > God only knows what they were thinking - the 68020 and 68030 machines were > quite capable at the time. Well, one view is that they were thinking with a different brain -- the 386i was a somewhere-in-Massachusetts creation, while the rest of Sun is in (or slightly north of) Sillycon Valley and I've gathered didn't pay much attention to the 386i. Also (from looking at the manuals) I gather it would have made a pretty nifty MS-DOS development environment for its day, being able to boot MS-DOS in several independent virtual machines. I'll have to play with that someday and see how well it really works. > Wasn't the i386 pretty much a failure by the time the Sun-4s came out. I don't think so. In fact I think it came out pretty much concurrently with, or maybe even shortly after the early Sun-4s -- it only ever ran its peculiar version of SunOS 4.0.x. That's why I used to think of it as Sun hedging its bets on the future. -Frank McConnell [1] Someone wanted to port Linux to it. No, I don't understand why, there are plenty of i386s in the world to run Linux, and besides the Sun 386i and the appropriate SunOS really sort of go together IMO. But I figured I would inquire anyway, one can never have too much documentation. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 26 19:54:18 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...) In-Reply-To: <19980626142048.20696.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >I like system 6 much more than the later ones because I think it holds >truer to the theory of simplicity and ease-of-use. Try sticking a MacOS >8 system folder on a RAMdisk and boot off that! Will never work. System >6 you could do that on, I've tried. Another feature of System 6 was a It's listed as a feature on my PowerBooks which came with Sys 7.1 installed, and the 7.5 upgrade on the Hard Drive. They list it as a power saving technique. I could quite easily have my PowerMac 8500/180 boot MacOS 8.1 from RAM disk if I was so inclined. I'm not though, as I've no way to preserve the RAM when the system is powered off. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 19:19:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 26, 98 05:56:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 796 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/e04c7a7f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 19:22:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big In-Reply-To: <199806262259.PAA21054@sweden.it.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Jun 26, 98 03:59:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 915 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/bc5265f2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 19:24:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? In-Reply-To: <01bda157$4de19ce0$0c28a2ce@laptop> from "PG Manney" at Jun 26, 98 07:08:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 469 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/8dbf033e/attachment.ksh From poesie at geocities.com Fri Jun 26 18:29:10 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: IBM RS6000 for sale References: Message-ID: <35942EC6.2B09@geocities.com> hehehe... for those of us who suffer from that horrid pain called youth, a NeXT machine *is* old :) -Eric William Donzelli wrote: > > > But I fear we're a bit off topic here... > > Yeah, but so is the whole NeXT thread! > > Give it a year or two... > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 19:34:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big In-Reply-To: <19980626230837.21268.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 26, 98 04:08:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1864 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/77a42552/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 26 19:48:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Heads-up: Cleveland OH, mini's etc In-Reply-To: <199806262335.TAA24137@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Jun 26, 98 07:35:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1618 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/5521b811/attachment.ksh From poesie at geocities.com Fri Jun 26 18:37:18 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Sun and the CPU Wars (was Re: NeXT cubes or slabs.) References: <199806262326.TAA18489@shell.monmouth.com> <35943028.7081E658@exit109.com> Message-ID: <359430AE.651@geocities.com> I have a sun 386i holding my screen door open right now... totally thrashed, no parts, just the box and a fried board. the "[Sun|386i]" logo adorns my kitchen lightswitch. -Eric John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > > > > William Donzelli wrote: > > > So...how did/do you read the 386i? Back then, I read it as Sun > > > hedging its bets against a total victory by Intel in the CPU Wars of > > > the late 1980s: they could sell Motorola, Intel, and SPARC today > > > (today being then, not now) and promise to be around tomorrow no > > > matter what the CPU of tomorrow looked like. > P.S. Out of curiousity, how "interesting" is a 386i from a > collectability standpoint? I may have an opportunity to get one, but is > it really worth it? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jun 26 20:23:33 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: 720K drives on an original PC was Re: Way to identify original IBM-PC? In-Reply-To: References: <01bda157$4de19ce0$0c28a2ce@laptop> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980626202333.38ef91a2@intellistar.net> 720K drives will work fine on the original drive controller AFTER you load the driver file. I've done it dozens of times to connect my NEC Multi-Speed drives to the PC. The only problem is that you can't boot from them since the driver has to be loaded for them to work. I don't *think* the 1.44 Mb drives will work on the controller though. Joe At 01:24 AM 6/27/98 +0100, you wrote: >> The 3.5" drive requires a special controller card that I find rare. Snag it! > >My IBM XT is looking worried. It's been running fine for years with the >original IBM controller linked to 2 360K drives and 2 720K 3.5" drives. >And you're telling it it shouldn't work? > >720K 3.5" drives work fine on the original IBM controller using a >suitable cable and not other mods. I believe drive A: should be a 360K >drive, but apart from that there's no real problem. > >-tony > > From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 26 20:35:41 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > That could never work for me. I have a 'working' collection - machines > are often being used for real-world tasks (I don't really have a > non-classic computer), they're being investigated, hacked, tweaked, > repaired,etc. So machines rarely stay in the same place for very long. > > And while I have shelf after shelf of manuals, many of them are open on > my workbench, near this PC, etc. They're in _use_. So, how do you manage? I have about ten machines in daily use, another ten or so in various "project" stages, and dozens more boxed up. Other than my decaying neurons, I don't have a good way of knowing if I've lost something, which periph originally came with which machine, which box contains which software title, which journal describes the design of which doodad, etc. I'd like to tag each thing with it's own radio transmitter so I can find it with a homing device :-) Short of that, I figure the barcode idea might help (yes, I'm really just trying to find a use for these cool laser scanners and wands I have). -- Doug From ecloud at goodnet.com Fri Jun 26 20:52:37 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 26, 98 08:35:41 pm Message-ID: <199806270152.SAA25491@goodnet.com> > might help (yes, I'm really just trying to find a use for these cool laser > scanners and wands I have). Me too! I picked up a couple of the stainless steel round wand type with a red laser in the end. They have a 9-pin plug and were evidently intended to plug directly into a serial port. But the laser didn't light up when I did that; so I figure maybe the software would have to enable/disable a certain combination of control lines, if the thing is really powered off the port. Do you happen to know any more about how these work? -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * packet radio * quantize the universe * Gravis Ultrasound * knowledge base * From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 26 20:59:08 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: OS's In ROMs (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)) Message-ID: <199806270159.AA14895@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > > might help (yes, I'm really just trying to find a use for these cool laser > > scanners and wands I have). > > Me too! I picked up a couple of the stainless steel round wand type with a > red laser in the end. They have a 9-pin plug and were evidently intended to > plug directly into a serial port. But the laser didn't light up when I did > that; so I figure maybe the software would have to enable/disable a certain > combination of control lines, if the thing is really powered off the port. > Do you happen to know any more about how these work? There appear to be many different types. I think you can find wands that plug directly into a PC serial port, but all of mine seem intended to plug into specific "portable data terminals" (which I also have) from which I can download the scanned data. There are also several different types of barcodes, and not all wands/scanners can handle all barcode types. -- Doug From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jun 26 17:29:58 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199806270230.WAA21171@smtp.interlog.com> > > Hi, > > I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its > original motherboard, without opening the case. I saw one at the > Salvation Army today and was considering dragging it home (though I > decided to take another machine instead). > > The machine did have a cassette port in the back, with a femal DIN > connector. Is this attached to the motherboard? > > The machine also had a full complement of cards in its slots, with lots of > ports coming out of it. And a 3.5" drive that was poorly fitted into the > case. > > I'm wondering if I should make a trip downtown sometime this weekend, with > the car. > > > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > > I would grab it if the price is $5 or $10. It's undoubtably a 5150 which are common enough but it may have cards that are no longer available. I usually carry a screwdriver , pliers and 360 and 720 disks with DOS 3.2 with me when I'm outing to the goodwill or yard sales, and then I can check out the innards if the owners don't freak. If there's an interesting card I'll buy it. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Jun 26 17:29:59 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199806270230.WAA21184@smtp.interlog.com> > > I finally went back to check on that "Wang PC-002" I asked about earlier. > It was a bit more scratched up, but it hadn't moved an inch in the past > two and a half(?) weeks. > > I managed to locate its keyboard, as well as the keyboard for an aparently > keyboardless Tandy 1000TX that was in another part of the building, so I > decided to drag the Wang machine home. > > NOT an easy job. It was about a mile to the nearest subway station, with > lots of broken escalators up and down once I got into the system. And I > was carrying a large book bag full of stuff I have to look over for work. > > By the time the bus dropped me off near home, we were in the middle of a > thunder storm. So I left the computer on top of someone's gate post (wide > brick thing with flat cement top) under some trees near the bus stop, and > made a run for home (about a half-mile). > > I went back with the car as soon as I got home. > Well my Wang PC2 rescue wasn't quite so harassing , eight blocks in cold weather without gloves but since the drives had been pulled the partition made a convenient handle and it was probably quite a bit lighter. Even so I do seem to be able to scratch my knee now without bending. > Anyway, it sure is a curious beast. And HUGE, to my eyes. It's not quite > as big as I reported before, but it's BIG. The closest offhand and > possibly innacurate comparison I could make is to a friend's MicroVax, but > I don't know what kind of MicroVax that is. > > If I sit it vertically (a position the box looks very comfortable in), it > measures about 15" high, by 6.5" wide, by 23" long. > Yup, thats the beast. Mine is labelled Model PC-S3-2 . Now you've gone and done it. I was compelled to dig it out and once more face the monster, leaving my more mundane tasks of turning my 5150 into an awesome Win 95ers confronter. > It has two floppy drives mounted in the front: one half-height 5.25" > drive, and one full-hieght 5.25" drive. > Mine were pulled and on the bottom of one of the empty bays it has plug-in instructions. Get back to that later. > In the back, I can see the backs of various cards. One of them has the > connector for the keyboard (4-pin DIN) as well as one serial and one > parallel port, so it must be the motherboard. Its an L-shaped board extending the length of the case the L surrounds the PS. > Beside that ( or above > depending on orientation) is a board with a sticker > reading "PM032-B 512K Memory Expansion". My next card's sticker reads " PM021/022-B Winchester controller "and has blue 34 pin and 20 pin M sockets. > Next to that, is what appears to be an empty slot, and > then there is what appears to be some kind of networking card. It has two > coaxial cable connectors and a toggle switch. There is another card > beside (or above) that, with no ports or labels, but I can see chips > through the air holes. Beside (or above) the mystery card is a board with > a label reading "PM101 IBM Mono Emulation". It has an 8-pin DIN connector > and a 5-pin DIN connector, which I would guess are for monitor and PC > keyboard(?). > In mine the 2nd card is the PM101. No networking card. My 3rd card is cabled to the second by edge-card connectors. I would imagine this is your mystery card. Likely emulator related. But if it doesn't have the cabling I also have a mystery card, onlymine is related to PC emu. : ^ )) All 5 slots are filled in mine. My 4th card is identical to the second only the connectors are black. Another winchester controller. My top card has a red lamp (not a LED) I forget what they're called , about half the board is empty traces and it has a string of 18 Motorola MCM 6665AP20 some low-power Schotskys and appears to be some kind of circuit controller. it has a chip labelled Bellpage 8321 with VCC Out 1-3 ,In 1-3 and grnd. > Does anyone know the pinouts of the various ports, or anything else about > this machine? Will it read PC disks or do I need to boot it up with some > wacky Wang-format disk? Does the machine require some kind of terminal, > or will a monitor connect into the back of the IBM Emulation board and let > me see what's going on? > I searched for info on this machine cause Wang was as innovative in his own way as Woz. He never locked into one particular manufacturer and his machines like this one has , as you will discover if you get down to the MB, Motorola, Zilog, Intel ,and whatever he could use. The Wang community of collectors focus fervently on the CPM machines and the PC's seem to be pretty much ignored. There are quite a few sites devoted to the CPM Wang. A pretty inbred community. Reminds me of the TRS people that ignore the model 2. There's a Wang Users Group in England that seems fairly active and they have a Web page with a few PD programs and some history but they want $40 or so to access their archives. They give a history of the machines but the PC's get short shrift. I was able to somehow access a setup program for the PC and I'll e-mail it to you. For obvious reasons I was not able to check it out. As a matter of fact I insist you check it out . : ^ )) Sam Ismail , mentioned he had acquired one, and Don Maislin knows something about them. IIRC Sam also has manuals and disks for them but I imagine with the Vintage Festival coming up he hasn't much time to explore new machines. > The sticker on the side (top) of the machine says it's a PC-002, but the > sticker on the back says it's a PC-P002. > > The keyboard has a lot of word processing functions on it. > I'm sure eventually a KB will turn up for mine. > Anyway, I haven't opened it up yet, or done anything with it but look at > it. Disassembly looks like it might be difficult, because I have to slip > the innards through the full length metal sleeve. I won't be up to that > until my arms recover. I've even got bruises and some kind of blood > blisters or something, from carrying that thing. :/ > Actually it slips quite easily out of the case. The boards are mounted like PC boards with one screw, only much bigger like S-100 boards. When you do disassemble it there are 2 34 pin older style connectors on the MB above two slots leading to the drive bays.. In mine I can find no floppy connectors. Were there also 34 pin winchester floppies ? Let me know what your FDD's are connected to. I will vicariously follow your progress. And if I have an extra HD controller maybe we can trade it for a FDD controlller > I probably won't have time to play with it today as I >promised to install > NetBSD 1.3.2 and some UNIX software on my Amiga 3000 instead of coming to > work. (And look at the time. :) ) So much to do , so little time. At least my kids are grown. > > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > AAAhh Montreal I remember when it was an international city. not a provincial capital. ciao larry > lwalker@interlog.com From tomowad at earthlink.net Fri Jun 26 21:40:13 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Message-ID: <199806270240.TAA10445@norway.it.earthlink.net> >Now remember the PERQ again, and think back to the start of this (long) >thread. The PERQ happens to be the first commercial machine that would >now be classed as a workstation. For that reason alone it should not be >forgotten. But few people have ever heard of it (OK, not on this list >since I do go on about it :-)), or seen one. Which comes back to the >original point. Where should the average man in the street go to see the >machines that led up to the PC he's now using (I'll assume Windows, if >only because it's the most common OS). There's been a lot of talk of talk recently about preserving ROM images and the like so that the machines will still be usable generations from now. But isn't the history of these machines and of how they were designed just as important as the computer itself? Who cares how much enjoyable it is to read, just so long as the information exists. Tom Owad (whom luckily, isn't knowledgable enough to write a book about classic computers :-) Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From tomowad at earthlink.net Fri Jun 26 21:40:23 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <199806270240.TAA10561@norway.it.earthlink.net> >Apart from the ST, which has already been mentioned : >BBC Micro, Acorn Archimedes, many older portables (Tandy 100, HP110, HP71 >and HP75 (almost), EPSON PX4 and PX8), there was a model of the Tandy >1000 with MS-DOS in ROM, one of the Torch machines had a CP/M a-like in >ROM, HP IPC, Tandy CoCo + disk controller (maybe this only counts as >Basic in ROM), and plenty more that I've forgotten about I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They certainly do boot quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. Tom Owad Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Jun 26 21:45:03 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Aim65 computers F/S Message-ID: <0e41f1347021b68UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Hello, all: I got a line on about 9 AIM65-based computer systems. These systems not only include the AIM, but also a custom-made case, power supply, keyboard, and miscellaneous related stuff. These would go for about $100 each + S/H. These units are supposed to be new, being built for a specific project which never got off the ground. Those interested, e-mail me separately. Thanks! ================================== Rich Cini/WUGNET - Charter ClubWin! Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of classic computers <<========== Reply Separator ==========>> From yowza at yowza.com Fri Jun 26 22:00:56 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <199806270240.TAA10561@norway.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They certainly do boot > quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. Later Newts, including the eMate, are flash upgradable. A quick boot doesn't require a ROM OS, though. Windows is a slow booter even when ROM'd, but battery-backed RAM gives many portables an instant boot even with Windows. Of course, if you have a GRiD Compass with bubble memory, you get an OS that acts like it's in ROM, but bubbles are writable. -- Doug From drfcline at netw.com Fri Jun 26 22:17:08 1998 From: drfcline at netw.com (Foster W. Cline, M.D.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Hang her on the wall. Message-ID: <001201bda17a$168f1600$d1ace3cc@foster> A piece of computer memorabilia well worth mounting on the wall or giving as a gift is a stack memory card from the UNIVAC computer. It is the LAST time the home of a bit of information could actually be seen - a tiny doughnut on a grid of wires. See it at http://www.netw.com/~drfcline/univac.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980626/f4d2b670/attachment.html From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 26 22:31:37 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big References: Message-ID: <35946799.40B61E89@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > >But seriously, while _I'd_ only want to write a book that's correct and > > >complete (and therefore does document every last gate in the device), I > > >guess few people would ever want to read it. > > > > You could release it in pdf format on the internet with a $5 shareware > > fee, or something. I'd certainly buy it, and I'm sure lots of other > > people (such as the ones who subscribe to this list) would as well. The > > information is invaluable. > > Yes, but I'd never want to take money from fellow collectors for > something like this :-). You've all given me far too much help over the > years for that. > > One day, if I've got some free time, I might try 'documenting' some of > the classsics to gate level or whatever. And I'd put the LaTeX source > under the GPL for the benefit of other collectors. Just don't expect an > introductory level book. And don't expect it to be soon :-) Yes, LaTeX. Since it can actually be translated to other forms. A .PDF is more or less a bitmap picture of what used to be text and is usually unreadable -- Hell, last week at work I got an email with a .PDF attachment that included the icon where the document said "examine the attached bitmap" left over from its Word origin, but for some reason clicking on that icon in the .PDF doesn't bring up the full picture. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From cad at gamewood.net Fri Jun 26 22:53:05 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Wang Thang References: <199806270230.WAA21184@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <35946CA1.5522@gamewood.net> Hi Folks: Since there is some activity Re: Wang PCs, I'll pass allong some 'programming' information that had me a bit upset at the time I discovered it. Wang, has their own 'Shell' to go into things with (I.E. menus). The system that I was working on was DOS 3.1 or 3.2 (a ways back). The problem ---- IF you entered the BASIC development system via the WANG menus, the 'F' keys (and the 'HELP key', and the other 'special keys) had one set of 'keystrokes' to return. On the other hand, if you 'bailed out' of the 'WANG' system, and changed directories, and started "GWBasic" from a 'C:/' prompt, then the 'F' key information was different. (It's a long story how I found this out.) It DID cause a bit of hassle. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jun 26 23:12:57 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: 720K drives on an original PC was Re: Way to identify original IBM-PC? Message-ID: <52ef2f38.3594714a@aol.com> In a message dated 98-06-26 21:30:20 EDT, you write: << 720K drives will work fine on the original drive controller AFTER you load the driver file. I've done it dozens of times to connect my NEC Multi-Speed drives to the PC. The only problem is that you can't boot from them since the driver has to be loaded for them to work. I don't *think* the 1.44 Mb drives will work on the controller though. Joe >> i've never needed a driver file in my case. for example, i have a few xt models around here and when i need to install dos or copy files over from a later computer with only a 3.5 drive, i just plug a 720k floppy into the drive controller cable in place of the 360k drive and i'm off and running. i think i could boot off the 720 drive also. you are correct in that 1.44 drives are not supported, although i do have an adaptor card that will let hi density drives work in an xt. david From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jun 27 00:20:54 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:52 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza's message of Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:56:40 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199806270520.WAA28635@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > I'm pretty new to the collecting game, but I'm already having trouble > keeping machines, parts, software, manuals, and releated stuff tractable. > I've picked-up some barcode reading equipment with the idea that one day > I'll encode the contents of all of my boxes, and tie it to all together > with a database that include historical info, condition info, and other > notes. Doug, you live in a part of California that has a dry climate. How do you propose to affix barcodes to boxes? Are they sticky labels? Have you noticed that the sticky stuff turns brittle after a while (like, say, three years or so), and the labels become susceptible to falling off? Not that I want to discourage you, you understand. Besides, the inventory number is precious little of what I want to log, it just wouldn't save me that much typing. OK, that said, the schema of my database looks something like this at present: Number: an inventory item number. Type: a one-word description of just what sort of object is described by this record; types thus far are: Ad (advertisement or marketing materials) Article (magazine article or photocopy thereof) Book (includes manuals) HW (hardware) LST (listing) Papers Part Periodical (really should be "serial") Pkg (package - generally packaging material or a complete boxed package) Refcard Supplies SW (software) Title: title or brief description of object Author: the author Manufacturer: the manufacturer or publisher of the object. Manufacture Date: manufacture or publishing date ISBN: ISBN number LCCN: Library of Congress Catalog Number Model: model name/number Part Number: manufacturer's part number Version: version Volume#Number: Volume#number for serials Serial: manufacturer's serial number Acquisition Date: date when I got it Source: where I got it from Location: where it is now (box ID or shelf location) Home Location: where it normally lives ToDo: flag: does this need work? (see notes) Notes: free-form text notes, containing additional description, relationship to other items, work that needs to be done Dates are actually text fields, because most database software has really Procrustean date handling that wants to make everything fit its idea of a datestamp. The syntax I use goes like this: yyyy[/mm[/dd]][~] where [] surrounds optional text, yyyy is year, mm is month, dd is day-of-month, and ~ means "approximate". People's names are always in "Last, First" format. ... I say the schema is "something like this" because it is changing, again. I'm fooling around with New Software, actually several New Softwares that are all several-years-old dBase-alikes that run on my HP200LX palmtop. Prior to that it's been through several iterations, most of which are still there because I haven't re-inventoried stuff, done with Lotus 1-2-3 (one row per item) and the HP 100/200LX ROM'd database software (which has a limit of 5000 records per database that is past being a looming problem, hence me looking for new software). And yes, some of the ways I do things (like having only one note field) is due to architectural limitations of the previous software. ... Oh yeah, and how do I label boxes? Well, I use those hinged-lid plastic containers that you can get at Costco. They're sort of transparent, so I just write the box numbers on 5x8" index cards with a broad felt-tip marker and drop them in so I can see them through the sides. No worries about labels falling off. -Frank McConnell From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 27 01:17:53 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. References: Message-ID: <35948E91.9065DAA4@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > > > I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They certainly do boot > > quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. > > Later Newts, including the eMate, are flash upgradable. A quick boot > doesn't require a ROM OS, though. Windows is a slow booter even when > ROM'd, but battery-backed RAM gives many portables an instant boot even > with Windows. > > Of course, if you have a GRiD Compass with bubble memory, you get an OS > that acts like it's in ROM, but bubbles are writable. Yes, and bubbles rival floppies for speed. There's a _reason_ why that innovation didn't catch on. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jun 27 01:28:16 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <00ef01bda194$c8cc35e0$676fbcc1@hotze> Come to think of it, ALL of the Windows CE devices have their OS in ROM. *My* opinion is that for UNIX hardware, it's going to be UNIX's biggest competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, as that's the only way that they can get any speed inexpensively and with a decent battery life. Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 9:14 AM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. >Doug Yowza wrote: >> >> On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: >> >> > I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They certainly do boot >> > quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. >> >> Later Newts, including the eMate, are flash upgradable. A quick boot >> doesn't require a ROM OS, though. Windows is a slow booter even when >> ROM'd, but battery-backed RAM gives many portables an instant boot even >> with Windows. >> >> Of course, if you have a GRiD Compass with bubble memory, you get an OS >> that acts like it's in ROM, but bubbles are writable. > >Yes, and bubbles rival floppies for speed. There's a _reason_ why >that innovation didn't catch on. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From snoball at pdq.net Sat Jun 27 01:31:38 1998 From: snoball at pdq.net (snoball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: HOW DO I GET OFF THIS MAILING LIST??? In-Reply-To: <00ef01bda194$c8cc35e0$676fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <000501bda195$3d5631e0$23e290d1@homepc.pdq.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Hotze > Sent: Saturday, June 27, 1998 1:28 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > > > Come to think of it, ALL of the Windows CE devices have their OS in ROM. > *My* opinion is that for UNIX hardware, it's going to be UNIX's biggest > competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, as > that's the only way that they can get any speed inexpensively and with a > decent battery life. > Ciao, > > Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 9:14 AM > Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > > > >Doug Yowza wrote: > >> > >> On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > >> > >> > I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They > certainly do boot > >> > quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. > >> > >> Later Newts, including the eMate, are flash upgradable. A quick boot > >> doesn't require a ROM OS, though. Windows is a slow booter even when > >> ROM'd, but battery-backed RAM gives many portables an instant boot even > >> with Windows. > >> > >> Of course, if you have a GRiD Compass with bubble memory, you get an OS > >> that acts like it's in ROM, but bubbles are writable. > > > >Yes, and bubbles rival floppies for speed. There's a _reason_ why > >that innovation didn't catch on. > >-- > >Ward Griffiths > >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > From snoball at pdq.net Sat Jun 27 01:37:16 1998 From: snoball at pdq.net (snoball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: What mailing list is this? I need to know how to unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <000501bda195$3d5631e0$23e290d1@homepc.pdq.net> Message-ID: <000801bda196$069c12e0$23e290d1@homepc.pdq.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of snoball > Sent: Saturday, June 27, 1998 1:32 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: HOW DO I GET OFF THIS MAILING LIST??? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Hotze > > Sent: Saturday, June 27, 1998 1:28 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > > > > > > Come to think of it, ALL of the Windows CE devices have their > OS in ROM. > > *My* opinion is that for UNIX hardware, it's going to be UNIX's biggest > > competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style > processors, as > > that's the only way that they can get any speed inexpensively and with a > > decent battery life. > > Ciao, > > > > Tim > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > > Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 9:14 AM > > Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > > > > > > >Doug Yowza wrote: > > >> > > >> On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > > >> > > >> > I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They > > certainly do boot > > >> > quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. > > >> > > >> Later Newts, including the eMate, are flash upgradable. A quick boot > > >> doesn't require a ROM OS, though. Windows is a slow booter even when > > >> ROM'd, but battery-backed RAM gives many portables an > instant boot even > > >> with Windows. > > >> > > >> Of course, if you have a GRiD Compass with bubble memory, > you get an OS > > >> that acts like it's in ROM, but bubbles are writable. > > > > > >Yes, and bubbles rival floppies for speed. There's a _reason_ why > > >that innovation didn't catch on. > > >-- > > >Ward Griffiths > > >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > > >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > > > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > > > From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 27 01:38:33 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: <199806270520.WAA28635@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 26 Jun 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > Doug, you live in a part of California that has a dry climate. How do > you propose to affix barcodes to boxes? Are they sticky labels? Have > you noticed that the sticky stuff turns brittle after a while (like, > say, three years or so), and the labels become susceptible to falling > off? Well, the DMV seems to have solved this problem -- I can never get my license plate stickers off, even after 10+ years :-) And there's always good card stock tags and steel wire. For the most part, I'm getting by now with cardboard boxes and magic markers, but that renders my barcode scanners useless, and it means that I usually stop short of writing the entire contents on the box (due to laziness). If I could print box contents directly from database info (in both human readable and barcode form), I could find a way to tag stuff. > OK, that said, the schema of my database looks something like this [...] Looks good. I'll probably steal this, if you don't mind. > I say the schema is "something like this" because it is changing, > again. I'm fooling around with New Software, actually several New > Softwares that are all several-years-old dBase-alikes that run on my > HP200LX palmtop. I'm a portable, wireless, and web zealot. I'll probably run the database on one of my home Linuxboxen, which I can talk to via various wireless-networked portables. (I have to admit that most of the wireless portables are non-classic, but one of them is an early NEC CP/M portable with a late 80's AirShare device.) This would free you from the memory constraints of your HP200LX. (Did I mention that I have some PCMCIA wireless LAN cards available for sale or trade?) -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 27 01:42:08 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: HOW DO I GET OFF THIS MAILING LIST??? In-Reply-To: <000501bda195$3d5631e0$23e290d1@homepc.pdq.net> Message-ID: Release your CAPS-LOCK, and see the FAQ: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/faq.txt -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 27 01:53:04 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. References: <00ef01bda194$c8cc35e0$676fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <359496D0.6CF9C654@cnct.com> Hotze wrote: > > Come to think of it, ALL of the Windows CE devices have their OS in ROM. > *My* opinion is that for UNIX hardware, it's going to be UNIX's biggest > competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, as > that's the only way that they can get any speed inexpensively and with a > decent battery life. So we put Linux on the little bastards. It's in the works for the Pilot once the thing carries 4Mb of RAM standard (probably a couple months) Naturally, it won't be exactly ROM'd. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 27 01:56:54 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: HOW DO I GET OFF THIS MAILING LIST??? References: <000501bda195$3d5631e0$23e290d1@homepc.pdq.net> Message-ID: <359497B6.8CACA7D@cnct.com> snoball wrote: By reversing the process you used to join. You send a message to the same address that says "unsubscribe" instead of "subscribe". That's the way it works for most mailing lists. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Hotze > > Sent: Saturday, June 27, 1998 1:28 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > > > > > > Come to think of it, ALL of the Windows CE devices have their OS in ROM. > > *My* opinion is that for UNIX hardware, it's going to be UNIX's biggest > > competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, as > > that's the only way that they can get any speed inexpensively and with a > > decent battery life. > > Ciao, > > > > Tim > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ward Donald Griffiths III > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > > Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 9:14 AM > > Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > > > > > > >Doug Yowza wrote: > > >> > > >> On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > > >> > > >> > I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They > > certainly do boot > > >> > quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. > > >> > > >> Later Newts, including the eMate, are flash upgradable. A quick boot > > >> doesn't require a ROM OS, though. Windows is a slow booter even when > > >> ROM'd, but battery-backed RAM gives many portables an instant boot even > > >> with Windows. > > >> > > >> Of course, if you have a GRiD Compass with bubble memory, you get an OS > > >> that acts like it's in ROM, but bubbles are writable. > > > > > >Yes, and bubbles rival floppies for speed. There's a _reason_ why > > >that innovation didn't catch on. > > >-- > > >Ward Griffiths > > >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > > >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > > > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > > -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jun 27 01:59:55 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <00fc01bda199$3a729d20$676fbcc1@hotze> Trust me, I've been looking all over for a Linux port to a otherwise CE device. Linux CE... there are distributions that are small enough and with enough apps to run, but most of them are x86, and I'm betting on a pripority system bus... so it'd be increasingly difficult.. Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 9:49 AM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. >Hotze wrote: >> >> Come to think of it, ALL of the Windows CE devices have their OS in ROM. >> *My* opinion is that for UNIX hardware, it's going to be UNIX's biggest >> competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, as >> that's the only way that they can get any speed inexpensively and with a >> decent battery life. > >So we put Linux on the little bastards. It's in the works for the Pilot >once the thing carries 4Mb of RAM standard (probably a couple months) >Naturally, it won't be exactly ROM'd. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 27 02:11:12 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <35948E91.9065DAA4@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Yes, and bubbles rival floppies for speed. There's a _reason_ why > that innovation didn't catch on. I think cost had something to do with it, too. BTW, I enjoy collecting over-hyped innovations that never quite caught on in the way they were supposed to: Bubbles. Pen-based computers. Touch screens. Wireless networks. Bob. MSX. Robots. AI. Home automation. The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. What did I miss? -- Doug From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jun 27 03:28:06 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <010a01bda1a5$86f94200$676fbcc1@hotze> >I think cost had something to do with it, too. Cost shouldn't have anything to do with innovation. It's really a bummer. >BTW, I enjoy collecting over-hyped innovations that never quite caught on >in the way they were supposed to: Bubbles. Pen-based computers. Touch >screens. Wireless networks. Bob. MSX. Robots. AI. Home automation. >The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. Pen-based computers, although not a BOOMING success, have had a limited success. Their gaining momentum, too. Robots? Once again, go into a factory. You'll see them at work. BTW, how rare are Androbots? Wireless networks? I've seen a fwe. But I'd like more tech behind them. Bob? He was way cool. Then he died out. Too bad. AI is very much in a state of recession, as early depressions in the 80's took all the hype out of it. I say that we saw the last of current AI's with Deep Blue last year. They'll come back, but not until 64-bit is standard. Voice recognitions much the same as AI, but with a little more life, as it actually has some practical applications that are already partially-functional. >What did I miss? Bunches of processors, lots of RAM designs, some cool hard disk systems, and PC/TV integration. >-- Doug Tim D. Hotze From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 27 03:55:56 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <010a01bda1a5$86f94200$676fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Hotze wrote: > Pen-based computers, although not a BOOMING success, have had a limited > success... The key word was *overhyped*. Pen-computers were hyped in the late 80's and early 90's to be *the* new natural way to use computers. Every manufacturer of software and hardware scrambled to catch the wave. Likewise, all of the other innovations I mentioned were hyped to bring a sea change, not to fill little niches. > >What did I miss? > > > Bunches of processors, lots of RAM designs, some cool hard disk systems, and > PC/TV integration. Of these, only PC/TV has been overhyped in the sense I'm thinking of. I have a Tandy VIS in my collection, and I need to add an early WebTV once they die out and get cheaper. Speaking of pen-based computing (sort of), if anybody has a 1981 calcu-pen that they want to get rid of, I'm interested! -- Doug From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jun 27 06:02:01 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)) In-Reply-To: "Hotze" "OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))" (Jun 26, 21:15) References: <00a301bda12f$510bbae0$676fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <9806271202.ZM15686@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 26, 21:15, Hotze wrote: > I LOVE that idea. Now, it'd need to be EPROM, especially nowadays with bug > fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a way > cool concept. Which computers did this? Acorn's RISC PC has the OS (RISC OS 3.7) in ROM, about 4MB IIRC. The original Archimedes range (1987) had RISC OS 2.0 in ROM (512K, IIRC). Usually they're mask ROMs or OTPROMs. The OS is structured as a series of about 80 relocatable modules, so if an upgrade is required, you load the relevant replacement module into RAM, and the kernel changes the links that point to it. Of course, changing the kernel module itself is a little more tricky, but it can be done -- the first RISC OS 2 upgrades had instructions on how to boot the system from a disk to load a new "utility module". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jun 27 06:41:31 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)) Message-ID: <000401bda1c0$889e2420$ae67bcc1@hotze> Would it be possible to have a control chip and a OS chip? You've got the control chip, which contains address information on the OS chip, as well as other EXTREMELY basic ssytem info. Then you've got the OS chip, which contains the OS. Because of the control chip, it could be as large as you wanted it. I've also heard of a "Windows 98 on a chip" system, with 75MBPS through put. Sounds like the first decent way to load Windows... Ciao, Tim D. Hotze PS-Did any computers have GUI's built in? I think that I recall that a Tandy did, but nothing else... -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 2:09 PM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)) >On Jun 26, 21:15, Hotze wrote: >> I LOVE that idea. Now, it'd need to be EPROM, especially nowadays with >bug >> fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a >way >> cool concept. Which computers did this? > >Acorn's RISC PC has the OS (RISC OS 3.7) in ROM, about 4MB IIRC. The >original Archimedes range (1987) had RISC OS 2.0 in ROM (512K, IIRC). > Usually they're mask ROMs or OTPROMs. The OS is structured as a series of >about 80 relocatable modules, so if an upgrade is required, you load the >relevant replacement module into RAM, and the kernel changes the links that >point to it. Of course, changing the kernel module itself is a little more >tricky, but it can be done -- the first RISC OS 2 upgrades had instructions >on how to boot the system from a disk to load a new "utility module". > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jun 27 06:50:20 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980627074940.006b84c8@netpath.net> I've got two Digital RZ23 3.5" SCSI drives I'd like to find some more info on. I basically need the specs (cylinder, head, size, etc.) and jumper settings. Anyone got anything? I think the original manufacturer was Conner. It also has the model number 3100D, which I think is a Conner drive. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu Sat Jun 27 07:10:09 1998 From: mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: ; from Doug Yowza on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 02:11:12AM -0500 References: <35948E91.9065DAA4@cnct.com> Message-ID: <19980627071009.27043@zeke.as.utexas.edu> I remember back in '98 when Doug Yowza wrote: > The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. ^^^^^^^ So you actually posess a 432 based machine? Impressive. I have only really heard about them in literature. Always sounded interesting. m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@zen.as.utexas.edu -- atwork?astronomy:cs http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler -- (512)471-7450 Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Jun 27 07:19:00 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Don Maslin wrote: > Cannot help on the pinouts, but I think their monitor connector was > unique. You need to boot it with Wang disks. They are in PC format, > but the DOS is different. I have a set that I can copy when you get > video going. Great! I'll get various Kaypro stuff from you at the same time. ;) Do you know what the monitor connector looks like? The only possibilities are the DIN plugs on the back of the IBM Emulator card. Unless the monitor was some kind of terminal that attached to the serial port. The 8-pin DIN plug has a little symbol next to it which might represent a CRT. (It looks kind of like a pie slice.) > As I recall, the IBM Emulator board really hacks the WangDOS to be more > like PCDOS and it will then run many - but not all - PCDOS programs. Pretty big hack. A whole PC could fit on a card half that size. :) > Don't believe the D-subs on the back are for monitor and keyboard, but it > may be a different board than I ever saw. Well, I don't know where else to put a monitor. The Wang keyboard plugs into the 4-pin DIN socket connected to the machine's motherboard, I can only guess what the other things are for. I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out how to get a picture from the thing. > > The sticker on the side (top) of the machine says it's a PC-002, but the > > sticker on the back says it's a PC-P002. > > > > The keyboard has a lot of word processing functions on it. > > That is what Wang really got established in. Too bad the keyboard doesn't have the greatest feel. And some of the keys are in the wrong places, but that's a holy war I don't want to get into. ;) > > Anyway, I haven't opened it up yet, or done anything with it but look at > > it. Disassembly looks like it might be difficult, because I have to slip > > the innards through the full length metal sleeve. I won't be up to that > > until my arms recover. I've even got bruises and some kind of blood > > blisters or something, from carrying that thing. :/ > > Stand it up on its face and lift the cover off. Everything inside is in > a heavy guage wire frame. Yeah, it took me a few minutes to figure it out, but it opened up easily once I decided to pull from the back instead of the front. :) > - don Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jun 27 06:14:23 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big In-Reply-To: Ward Donald Griffiths III "Re: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big" (Jun 26, 23:31) References: <35946799.40B61E89@cnct.com> Message-ID: <9806271214.ZM15701@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 26, 23:31, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Yes, LaTeX. Since it can actually be translated to other forms. A .PDF > is more or less a bitmap picture of what used to be text and is usually > unreadable -- Hell, last week at work I got an email with a .PDF > attachment that included the icon where the document said "examine the > attached bitmap" left over from its Word origin, but for some reason > clicking on that icon in the .PDF doesn't bring up the full picture. No, PDF is more-or-less PostScript. However, *some* PDF documents actually include scanned images, which of course are usually bitmaps because the creator didn't OCR them. Both PostScript and PDF files can contain text, vector graphics, and bitmap graphics. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Jun 27 07:49:35 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: <199806270230.WAA21184@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > If I sit it vertically (a position the box looks very comfortable in), it > > measures about 15" high, by 6.5" wide, by 23" long. > > > Yup, thats the beast. Mine is labelled Model PC-S3-2 . I wonder if there's any significance to the different model numbers. :) > Now you've gone and done it. I was compelled to dig it out and once > more face the monster, leaving my more mundane tasks of turning > my 5150 into an awesome Win 95ers confronter. Hummm... I always wanted to put an Amiga into a PET case, just to freak people out, but I've never found an adequately destroyed PET to use. :) > > In the back, I can see the backs of various cards. One of them has the > > connector for the keyboard (4-pin DIN) as well as one serial and one > > parallel port, so it must be the motherboard. > > Its an L-shaped board extending the length of the case the L surrounds > the PS. Yup, now that I've got the case off, I can see that. I haven't disassembled it beyond removing the case and pulling the cards, however. But I do see an 8086 on the motherboard, and two EPROMs with absolutely _nothing_ covering the windows! (Eeek!) > > Beside that ( or above > depending on orientation) is a board with a sticker > > reading "PM032-B 512K Memory Expansion". > > My next card's sticker reads " PM021/022-B Winchester controller "and has > blue 34 pin and 20 pin M sockets. Is an M socket a card-edge connetor, or... ? At any rate, at least you can shove a hard drive in yours. > > Next to that, is what appears to be an empty slot, and > > then there is what appears to be some kind of networking card. It has two > > coaxial cable connectors and a toggle switch. There is another card > > beside (or above) that, with no ports or labels, but I can see chips > > through the air holes. Beside (or above) the mystery card is a board with > > a label reading "PM101 IBM Mono Emulation". It has an 8-pin DIN connector > > and a 5-pin DIN connector, which I would guess are for monitor and PC > > keyboard(?). > > In mine the 2nd card is the PM101. No networking card. My 3rd card is cabled > to the second by edge-card connectors. I would imagine this is your mystery > card. Likely emulator related. But if it doesn't have the cabling I also > have a mystery card, only mine is related to PC emu. : ^ )) My mystery card isn't connected to the emulator card, but there is a card-edge connector on the emulator card. My mystery card is connected to the networking card via a (very short) 50-pin ribbon cable, plugged into edge connectors at the top of both cards. So my mystery card is probably networking-related. ;) The mystery card has a Z80 on it. I'll examine it later to see what other goodies it has. > All 5 slots are filled in mine. My 4th card is identical to the second only > the connectors are black. Another winchester controller. > My top card has a red lamp (not a LED) I forget what they're called , My memory board has a red LED in one corner, labeled "PAR ERR". Thankfully, it hasn't lit up. :) > about half the board is empty traces and it has a string of 18 Motorola MCM > 6665AP20 some low-power Schotskys and appears to be some kind of circuit > controller. it has a chip labelled Bellpage 8321 with VCC Out 1-3 ,In 1-3 > and grnd. I'll have to take a closer look at the parts on all my boards. > > Does anyone know the pinouts of the various ports, or anything else about > > this machine? Will it read PC disks or do I need to boot it up with some > > wacky Wang-format disk? Does the machine require some kind of terminal, > > or will a monitor connect into the back of the IBM Emulation board and let > > me see what's going on? > > I searched for info on this machine cause Wang was as innovative in his own > way as Woz. He never locked into one particular manufacturer and his machines > like this one has , as you will discover if you get down to the MB, Motorola, > Zilog, Intel ,and whatever he could use. Which is cool. I saw a lot of Toshiba parts, Zilog, Intel, and either MOS or Mostek (don't remember now). > The Wang community of collectors focus fervently on the CPM machines and > the PC's seem to be pretty much ignored. There are quite a few sites devoted > to the CPM Wang. A pretty inbred community. Reminds me of the TRS people > that ignore the model 2. > There's a Wang Users Group in England that seems fairly active and they > have a Web page with a few PD programs and some history but they want $40 or > so to access their archives. Ouch! > They give a history of the machines but the PC's get short shrift. I was > able to somehow access a setup program for the PC and I'll > e-mail it to you. For obvious reasons I was not able to check it out. As a > matter of fact I insist you check it out . : ^ )) I'll see what I can do, as soon as I figure out how to plug in a monitor. :) > > Anyway, I haven't opened it up yet, or done anything with it but look at > > it. Disassembly looks like it might be difficult, because I have to slip > > the innards through the full length metal sleeve. I won't be up to that > > until my arms recover. I've even got bruises and some kind of blood > > blisters or something, from carrying that thing. :/ > > Actually it slips quite easily out of the case. The boards are mounted like > PC boards with one screw, only much bigger like S-100 boards. > When you do disassemble it there are 2 34 pin older style connectors on > the MB above two slots leading to the drive bays.. In mine I can find no > floppy connectors. Were there also 34 pin winchester floppies ? Let me know > what your FDD's are connected to. They appear to be connected to the motherboard via ribbon cables. There are connectors at the (looking from the front of the machine) right edge of the motherboard, with plastic clips to hold the connectors in place. I haven't pulled one out to see what it looks like, and there are tons of other wires hanging from the full-height drive, but I'll check those out. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 27 08:20:57 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <199806271320.AA15766@world.std.com> The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. < ^^^^^^^ Message-ID: <199806271334.JAA06295@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 07:50:20 -0400 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: John Higginbotham > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive > I've got two Digital RZ23 3.5" SCSI drives I'd like to find some more info > on. I basically need the specs (cylinder, head, size, etc.) and jumper > settings. Anyone got anything? > > I think the original manufacturer was Conner. It also has the model number > 3100D, which I think is a Conner drive. Conner made 100mb drives to *Digital*'s specs but I suspect Digital may had used differnt brands using same number RZ23. These bit odd drives comes with different firmware. It will NOT spin up on power up because of that firmware. I was told that hd needs specific scsi controllers that have proper spinup commands to start them after that, it's typical SCSI drives. :) Better put 'em in digital machines for pete's sakes. :) (long ago, I was given 2 but I don't have right controller so I gave them back to original owner and got suitable HD instead. :) ) Oh, by the way RZ24 also can be Conner or different makes in 200 mb range. Jason D. > > > - > - john higginbotham ____________________________ > - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - > - limbo limbo.netpath.net - > > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 27 09:39:16 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980627074940.006b84c8@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jun 27, 98 07:50:20 am Message-ID: <9806271339.AA12664@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 749 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/3eb3e6cc/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sat Jun 27 08:40:21 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive Message-ID: <199806271340.AA22979@world.std.com> >I've got two Digital RZ23 3.5" SCSI drives I'd like to find some more >info on. I basically need the specs (cylinder, head, size, etc.) and >jumper settings. Anyone got anything? If you go to Seagate's website (www.seagate.com) you can find pages for conner drives... it'll have graphics which show the positions of jumpers. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jun 27 08:50:35 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <002e01bda1d2$91302ea0$ae67bcc1@hotze> > >What's a unix style processor? > > >Allison A processor from a company who's highest-end products are UNIX based, and a similiar version (IE in the same family, such as Pentium is in the x86 family). Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) processors, or SGI MIPS processors. Ciao, Tim From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jun 27 08:53:42 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <003701bda1d3$00121b80$ae67bcc1@hotze> Wasn't the i960 (the new Fast Ethernet chip) based on 432 archeticture? Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > ><> The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. >< ^^^^^^^ > >I have Intel docs for them. Old now, like early 80s. > >Allison > From emu at ecubics.com Sat Jun 27 09:17:18 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive Message-ID: <19980627140402.AAA6553@emusp6> Hi John, RZ23 = 104 MB RZ23L = 121 MB cheers, emanuel From mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu Sat Jun 27 09:30:43 1998 From: mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <003701bda1d3$00121b80$ae67bcc1@hotze>; from Hotze on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 04:53:42PM +0300 References: <003701bda1d3$00121b80$ae67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <19980627093043.04818@zeke.as.utexas.edu> I remember back in '98 when Hotze wrote: > Wasn't the i960 (the new Fast Ethernet chip) based on 432 archeticture? Lesse--the i960 has been used for lots of embedded-type applications for some time now (10 years?). It's introduction (along with the more complex i860) were probably based on 432 work, but the 960 was much more conventional (or so I've heard!) I remember seeing adds in some general PC-type mags c. 1991 for coproscessor boards w. 860's onboard to stick in your pc to give "cray" performance. :-) Yeah. Matt -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@zen.as.utexas.edu -- atwork?astronomy:cs http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler -- (512)471-7450 Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 27 09:38:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <199806271438.AA17237@world.std.com> Yep. I knew most of those. And SPARCs, PPC's, and, if you really want to go on a limb, anything that runs Linux. I was talking about processors, generally associated with UNIX, that also run Windows CE devices. Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 5:38 PM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > > >Then Alpha, ARM, PDP-11, VAX, 680xx and sundry others are also since they >all run unix. > >careful about retrorevisionist terminology... > >Allison > From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Jun 27 11:09:03 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? Message-ID: <04a111210161b68UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Can't you also tell by the BIOS date?? I seem to remember that the original PC had one of three BIOS dates: 4/24/81, 10/19/81, and 10/27/82. This in combination with looking for a cassette port should be a good way to tell. ================================== Rich Cini/WUGNET - Charter ClubWin! Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of classic computers <<========== Reply Separator ==========>> From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 27 11:27:10 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <199806271321.AA15796@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > What's a unix style processor? Maybe he was talking about the AT&T CRISP CPU, designed as a C-language engine? :-) -- Doug From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 27 11:56:50 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive In-Reply-To: <9806271339.AA12664@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <3.0.32.19980627074940.006b84c8@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jun 27, 98 07:50:20 am Message-ID: >Keep in mind that the mode page on a DEC-badged RZ drive is almost >certainly set to wait for a spinup command from the host adapter before >spinning up. If your host adapter gives this command (most workstation- >class controllers do), you don't have a problem. If not, you'll >need to specify your host adapter/platform so that someone can tell >you how to spin the drive up. On the Mac, you can use FWB Toolkit to spin them up, but you can't boot off of them. I use it for a couple of 2Gb HP drives I got out of an Auspex. The thing is the RZ23's are only about a 100Mb apiece, as such it isn't worth any expense to make use of them, except in anything other than DEC hardware. In the case of my solution it cost $100-150, and for that you can get a lot larger normal SCSI hard drive. In my case it probably cost me a couple hundred about a year ago (software, external case, and cables), but that got me 4Gb of drives that are faster than what is in this Power Mac I'm using. They were a large enough size that it was worth the expense. I think some drives, includeing the RZ23 have a jumper setting to spin them up, and some PC controllers might do this for you. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 12:20:58 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: Message-ID: <19980627172059.12000.qmail@hotmail.com> I'm just wondering - what DO you use these machines for? I guess you must have been doing it for a long time if you're using classics for it. Also, I think you should at least have an inventory of the manuals, and an inventory of each machine, ie Apple //c =1 computer =1 monitor //c =1 AC adapter =1 'getting started' guide etc, etc. That way, if you give the machine to someone, you won't leave anything out. >That could never work for me. I have a 'working' collection - machines >are often being used for real-world tasks (I don't really have a >non-classic computer), they're being investigated, hacked, tweaked, >repaired,etc. So machines rarely stay in the same place for very long. > >And while I have shelf after shelf of manuals, many of them are open on >my workbench, near this PC, etc. They're in _use_. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 12:32:16 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Message-ID: <19980627173217.10288.qmail@hotmail.com> > 'The DMA address extension register is a 4*4 register file >chip (74LS670) at location . It supplies the top 4 bits >of the system 20 bit address during DMA cycles. Unlike the >segmentation scheme used by the CPU, the extensions address is not a >16 bit segment address which is added to the address from the DMA >controller. Therefore, DMA operations cannot cross 64K boundaries', I can half-understand that, but if you read those urban legends about a guy calling tech support because the power went out in his block (I've had personal experience - my mom thinks there is a significant difference between a TV and monitor as far as cleaning solution is concerned), I sometimes wonder how these people learn to walk :) > >Now remember the PERQ again, and think back to the start of this (long) >thread. The PERQ happens to be the first commercial machine that would >now be classed as a workstation. For that reason alone it should not be >forgotten. But few people have ever heard of it (OK, not on this list >since I do go on about it :-)), or seen one. Which comes back to the >original point. Where should the average man in the street go to see the >machines that led up to the PC he's now using (I'll assume Windows, if >only because it's the most common OS). The average man in England might get your book, the average man in the US doesn't have time. Most people just _don't have time_ to learn about curiosities, especially when such complex, multidimensional concepts are involved. And so many people already have learned to use their computers mechanically (I just turned it on and it always loaded WordPerfect...) that such knowledge would have nowhere to go. I've seen some of my classmate have trouble understanding how muscles work, because they _just do_. Also, the economic forces that partly drove this stuff could never be understood by the naive American. To bring this long rambling to a close, I don't think many people would understand such a history, though that does not mean that we shouldn't try to make them ;) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 12:37:23 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Message-ID: <19980627173723.29860.qmail@hotmail.com> The problem being that we don't know most of that >But isn't the history of these machines and of how they were >designed just as important as the computer itself? > Who cares how much enjoyable it is to read, just so long as the >information exists. > >Tom Owad (whom luckily, isn't knowledgable enough to write a book about >classic computers :-) > >Sysop of Caesarville Online >Client software at: > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 12:49:05 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <19980627174906.2747.qmail@hotmail.com> Most of what you list are excellent things that are not yet finished. They WILL catch on when they're done. Bob was just a dumb program. I find the touch screen comment unpleasant because I think touch screens are the key to an easy-to-use interface. Voice recognition and p.p. are in use and are gaining ground. What were bubbles, and why didn't they catch on? Ones you've missed? I think the Amiga caught on a lot less than it should have, same with the Macintosh. >BTW, I enjoy collecting over-hyped innovations that never quite >caught on in the way they were supposed to: Bubbles. Pen-based >computers. Touch screens. Wireless networks. Bob. MSX. Robots. >AI. Home automation. The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. > Voice recognition. > >What did I miss? > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 14:03:29 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? Message-ID: <19980627190329.9592.qmail@hotmail.com> >This in combination with looking for a cassette port should be a good >way to tell. I know we've been through this, but could someone summarize for me about the cassette port? What can be used with it? > >================================== >Rich Cini/WUGNET > - Charter ClubWin! Member (6) > - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > - Collector of classic computers ><<========== Reply Separator ==========>> > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 27 14:17:20 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Doug Spence wrote: > > Do you know what the monitor connector looks like? The only possibilities > are the DIN plugs on the back of the IBM Emulator card. Unless the > monitor was some kind of terminal that attached to the serial port. > > The 8-pin DIN plug has a little symbol next to it which might represent a > CRT. (It looks kind of like a pie slice.) Sorry, it has been over ten years since I last saw one of those critters and my recall on that kind of detail is fuzzy. With the case off, the content of the cards may well give you a clue, though. > Well, I don't know where else to put a monitor. The Wang keyboard plugs > into the 4-pin DIN socket connected to the machine's motherboard, I can > only guess what the other things are for. I'm just scratching my head > trying to figure out how to get a picture from the thing. See remark above. > Too bad the keyboard doesn't have the greatest feel. And some of the keys > are in the wrong places, but that's a holy war I don't want to get into. > ;) Yup! That is one that no one can win. - don From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Jun 27 14:18:41 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13367195635.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Hmm... Wang Thang. Does this have anything to do with Groove Thang? ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Jun 27 14:25:47 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: GOOD LORD! VARNISH? Message-ID: <13367196929.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> HOW DO YOU POUR *VARNISH* IN THE BACK OF A COMPUTER AND DON'T KNOW IT???? Just stuck my screwdriver in the back of that Mac 512, trying to open the lid and remove a sorely jammed floppy. (No, I've already tried the little button. It's jammed good.) Pull my screwdriver out - Minus the ending and COVERED IN WET VARNISH! It's all over the place! These morons DUMPED A CAN OF VARNISH in the computer, and didn't know about it! It does power on though... It comes up with the "insert a boot disk" icon. ------- From kyrrin at jps.net Sat Jun 27 14:38:16 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Mayday! PDP-11/44 Power supply Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980627123816.00e68a50@mail.wa.jps.net> Hi, folks, My PDP-11/44 has a power supply problem. Symptom: A rapid flashing of the 'DC ON' light, indicating (according to the users' guide) that one or more DC voltages is not up to spec. The kicker is that I have nothing in the way of service manual or maintenance print set. I'm kind of puzzled about why the thing died. It's been functioning perfectly well at St. Martins College for years, 24/7, without so much as a burp. The only thing I can think of is that this continuous running had one or more components stretched to their limit, and when I powered it on after over a month of power off, it pushed it over the edge. Anyway... I have no way of knowing even where to probe to see which voltage died. Even if I did manage to find it, that fscking power supply's about as complex as the CPU! If anyone's got service docs for the '44, and can help me out with some copies, that would be just grand. I'd also be open to troubleshooting via phone or E-mail. If you've got spare parts, of course, that would be ideal. I could swap modules until the bad one's isolated. ;-) This is one I really want to get working. Please give me a hand if you can. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Jun 27 14:40:58 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Mayday! PDP-11/44 Power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980627123816.00e68a50@mail.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: <13367199691.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Bad PSU, 11/44] Tell us what's inside and where it's at, for starters... And write down EVERYTHING before you change it! I smoked MASSBUS controller by sicking it in slot A-B instead of C-D... ------- From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jun 27 15:11:07 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4211??? Message-ID: Anybody know what a Tektronix 4211 is? Its got an RS-232C port on the back, a DB-9 connector, two other db-25 ports, and some other connectors. Its in a desktop case and is greyish in colour. Saw it in a surplus shop so I don't have it in front of me to answer questions. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 27 15:23:19 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <19980627174906.2747.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Most of what you list are excellent things that are not yet finished. > They WILL catch on when they're done. Most of them are interesting ideas that were touted as great ideas. > Bob was just a dumb program. Bob was touted by Microsoft as the way user interfaces would work from that point on. It was seen as a way to bring computers to mere consumers, and launched at CES with great fanfare IIRC. > I find the touch screen comment unpleasant because I think touch screens > are the key to an easy-to-use interface. Voice recognition and p.p. are > in use and are gaining ground. What were bubbles, and why didn't they > catch on? Touch screens make you take your hands off the keyboard and leave a greasy mess on your screen while you try in vain to do high resolution tasks with your low res finger. Even in humans, voice recognition isn't great. That's why there are so many different words for "huh?". You'll always be able to communicate with your computer faster and more accurately with a keyboard. The supercomputer tar pits are littered with the remains of parallel processing companies. They go fast only for a relatively small subset of programs. Bubble memory was an early type of non-volatile memory, and it was thought for a while that everybody would use it for solid state disks. It's serial, and therefore slow, and was pretty much burried by cheaper faster EEPROMs (like flash). -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 11:42:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:53 2005 Subject: 720K drives on an original PC was Re: Way to identify In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980626202333.38ef91a2@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Jun 26, 98 08:23:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 615 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/56adb0d2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 11:48:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: <199806270230.WAA21184@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jun 26, 98 10:29:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1007 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/fcef3989/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jun 27 15:27:14 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > I'm pretty new to the collecting game, but I'm already having trouble > keeping machines, parts, software, manuals, and releated stuff tractable. > I've picked-up some barcode reading equipment with the idea that one day > I'll encode the contents of all of my boxes, and tie it to all together > with a database that include historical info, condition info, and other > notes. > > Has anybody already done something like this? If so, can I steal your > scheme? I'm working on sort of an object-oriented database for my collection Not only will it allow me to inventory items, but it'll also indicate, via hyper-links, what items are contained in others. So for instance, you can indicate a Thinker Toys Disk Jockey is installed in an IMSAI 8080, but both are discrete objects in the collection. Once I find my space to warehouse all this stuff, I'm going to setup an organizational system, whereby I can put the physical location of the item in the database so that I know where everything is. The next step will be to label everything with some non-permanent label, preferably barcode (I too have some barcoding equipment). I'd like a label that will stick to the item but not leave a residue if I peel it off. I'm also going to catalog all my books and software, using a modified Dewey Decimal system, and have them available for searching in a computer database, with an online version. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 11:56:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 26, 98 08:35:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1544 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/83ed791c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 12:48:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big In-Reply-To: <199806270240.TAA10445@norway.it.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Jun 26, 98 07:40:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1597 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/e6c7fc97/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 12:52:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Hang her on the wall. In-Reply-To: <001201bda17a$168f1600$d1ace3cc@foster> from "Foster W. Cline, M.D." at Jun 26, 98 08:17:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/3d57d771/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 12:57:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big In-Reply-To: <35946799.40B61E89@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Jun 26, 98 11:31:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1239 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/91f03beb/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jun 27 15:34:10 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Apart from the ST, which has already been mentioned : > BBC Micro, Acorn Archimedes, many older portables (Tandy 100, HP110, HP71 > and HP75 (almost), EPSON PX4 and PX8), there was a model of the Tandy > 1000 with MS-DOS in ROM, one of the Torch machines had a CP/M a-like in That would be either the 1000HX or the 1000EX. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jun 27 16:03:51 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > BTW, I enjoy collecting over-hyped innovations that never quite caught on > in the way they were supposed to: Bubbles. Pen-based computers. Touch > screens. Wireless networks. Bob. MSX. Robots. AI. Home automation. > The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. > > What did I miss? Its not what you missed, its what you included! Voice recognition?? This is still evolving and has just become viable in the last year or so. It works in a more than limited fashion, and is only a few years away from being contrinuous without putting limitations on how the speaker talks. Current state-of-the-art is speaker independent with word dictionaries in the thousands to tens-of-thousands range. Right now I'd say it is pretty much a reality. Check out the computer telephony stuff. Wireless networks exist today. Robots are in use in many applications in many different fields. MSX was a standard that was around for a time in Europe and Japan. Thankfully it didn't catch on in the U.S. or stick around, but like CP/M it kinda faded. Home automation is an evolving art as well. Voice activated home automation is here, but the good stuff is still around the corner. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jun 27 16:18:25 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? In-Reply-To: <19980627190329.9592.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >This in combination with looking for a cassette port should be a good > >way to tell. > > I know we've been through this, but could someone summarize for me about > the cassette port? What can be used with it? Um, perhaps a cassette recorder for storing programs and data?? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From g at kurico.com Sat Jun 27 16:21:56 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (wa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > BTW, I enjoy collecting over-hyped innovations that never quite caught > on in the way they were supposed to: Bubbles. Pen-based computers. > Touch screens. Wireless networks. Bob. MSX. Robots. AI. Home > automation. The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice > recognition. > > What did I miss? You forgot optical media. Back when hd's were just a few hundred meg, optical media, specifically MO, was touted as being our only hope of breaking the 1GB barrier in a cost effective manner. Then there is always interactive tv. Or CASE tools. Or the battle of the buses, MCA vs. EISA. To a lesser extent RISC. I think a few people have mis-read what you said. You state "innovations that never quite caught on the way they _were_supposed_to". Not that those innovations aren't still around and doing well, it's just that they didn't become the "new paradigm" that their inventors (and/or the press) were originally touting. Pen based computers are an excellent (and recent) example. Back when the first units were coming out, the pen was going to become the input device of choice for all computers, that is if you believed the hype being spewed out by the computing press. I do however don't necessarily agree about touch screens. Mainly because I don't ever remember it being that overly hyped (not that it wasn't, I just don't remember) or anyone thinking that it would become something more than what it really was. George From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 16:53:52 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <19980627215353.5843.qmail@hotmail.com> I guess I missed that one. Wasn't particularly useful, though versions were used as Packard Bell's "Navigator" and a popular game called "Myst" ;) >Bob was touted by Microsoft as the way user interfaces would work from >that point on. It was seen as a way to bring computers to mere consumers, >and launched at CES with great fanfare IIRC. > If you use a keyboard. Imagine a touch screen keyboard that reconfigured itself for your task, and had an enzyme coating that broke down your skin oils to prevent stains (you'd have to take breaks, of course, to prevent skin from drying out), like in Star Trek:The Next Generation. It's farfetched, but I doubt we'll use mechanical keyboard forever. >Touch screens make you take your hands off the keyboard and leave a greasy >mess on your screen while you try in vain to do high resolution tasks with >your low res finger. Can you type while you're buried inside a router closet trying to check network cables? I sure can't... >Even in humans, voice recognition isn't great. That's why there are so >many different words for "huh?". You'll always be able to communicate >with your computer faster and more accurately with a keyboard. Supercomputers are becoming less and less common because as things get cheaper, it's no longer 'super' but 'high-power', and in two years, 'entry-level'. AI works best in parallel, so do simulations like the ones India didn't want to stick to. >The supercomputer tar pits are littered with the remains of parallel >processing companies. They go fast only for a relatively small subset of >programs. > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jun 27 17:01:40 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: "No name" S-100 computer In-Reply-To: <199806260548.WAA00374@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, dave dameron wrote: > In 10 or ? years, how will I pass it along "to the next generation"? I > don't think any public museum would want a "no name" box, and from the > museum threads, doesn't sound like a good idea, anyway. I know no one Well, I feel the trend of wanting to harbor old computers (ie. collect) will continue to grow. More and more people each year are finding an interest in old computers. I'm sure by the time you pass on there will be several competent organizations or individuals who you would be comfortable bequathing your collection to. > personally that has these "old" computer interests except maybe the > speculator type, only this list. Those with private museums, will you be > collecting this stuff in say 20 years, or will you be looking to pass it > along? To ??? For old radios I can consider the AWA museum, as assume it I can only assume that I will be as interested in my computers in 20 years as I am now. Hopefully by then, I will have an established foundation dedicated to the preservation of these beloved beasts, and VCF XXII will be hosting 100,000 visitors from all over the world :) When I die (I'm not planning to but who knows what lays ahead :) the folks running my foundation will hopefully carry on in my memory and not give in to the temptation of auctioning off the entire collection on eBay. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 27 17:01:53 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Its not what you missed, its what you included! Another believer! > Voice recognition?? This is still evolving and has just become viable in > the last year or so. It works in a more than limited fashion, and is only > a few years away from being contrinuous without putting limitations on > how the speaker talks. Current state-of-the-art is speaker independent > with word dictionaries in the thousands to tens-of-thousands range. Right > now I'd say it is pretty much a reality. Check out the computer telephony > stuff. Promise: revolutionize human-machine interaction. Delivered: telephony niche that allows you to speak rather than press "one". Your vision of the future: everybody is walking around mumbling into their collars (I see a lot of people doing this now in Berkeley, but they don't look like researchers). I find this stuff very interesting, and that's why I collect it (Kurzweil was one of my heros when I was in school), but the common thread of all of this stuff is that they were so cool that they'd blind you with optimism. > Wireless networks exist today. Robots are in use in many applications in > many different fields. MSX was a standard that was around for a time in > Europe and Japan. Thankfully it didn't catch on in the U.S. or stick > around, but like CP/M it kinda faded. Home automation is an evolving art > as well. Voice activated home automation is here, but the good stuff is > still around the corner. You won't find anybody more wireless (less wired?) than me, but this stuff has not displaced wires by any means. I'm a huge fan of robots, but they've been supposed to vacuum my floor for me since the 60's. MSX was part of Microsoft's grand plan to displace Nintendo, and never came close to doing that anywhere. My house has got X-10 stuff everywhere, but it's a toy. Some of these things were just illconceived, and the ones that were good ideas failed because they weren't (and for the most part, will never be) cost effective. Some other lesser boondoggles (that I don't collect): CASE tools, hardware MPEG decoders, MMX, provably-correct programming, ergonomic keyboards, paperless office. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jun 27 17:05:20 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Old computer catalogs wanted Message-ID: Can anyone point this guy in the direction of heaps of old computer catalogs? Reply-to: Ferock@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:18:00 EDT From: Ferock@aol.com To: vcf@siconic.com Subject: computer catalogs I enjoyed reading your web page. I'm also interested in old computers and old computer equipment. I collect old (1980-1990) computer catalogs. I'm especially interested in Black Box and Amp catalogs. If you know anyone who is interested in selling these items, I would greatly appreciate it if you send me an e-mail. Thanks in advance. Glenn From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 27 17:13:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <199806272213.AA15972@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Still evolving but usable systems are getting near 10 years old! I cite > DRAGON Dictate. > > However user independent is far away. Not at all. That was here two years ago when I went to the yearly Computer Telephony show. I demo'd it personally and it worked. It still works. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 17:15:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: In-Reply-To: <19980627172059.12000.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 27, 98 10:20:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1437 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/61711d84/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 17:44:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Mayday! PDP-11/44 Power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980627123816.00e68a50@mail.wa.jps.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Jun 27, 98 12:38:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2871 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/749ecb96/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 17:21:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big In-Reply-To: <19980627173217.10288.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 27, 98 10:32:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1753 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/47dc2c14/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 17:25:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? In-Reply-To: <19980627190329.9592.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 27, 98 12:03:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 882 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/1674d874/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 17:31:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: GOOD LORD! VARNISH? In-Reply-To: <13367196929.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 27, 98 12:25:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980627/995c1b55/attachment.ksh From cad at gamewood.net Sat Jun 27 18:06:03 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: GOOD LORD! VARNISH? References: <13367196929.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <35957ADB.C09@gamewood.net> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > HOW DO YOU POUR *VARNISH* IN THE BACK OF A COMPUTER AND DON'T KNOW IT???? > > Just stuck my screwdriver in the back of that Mac 512, trying to open the > lid and remove a sorely jammed floppy. (No, I've already tried the little > button. It's jammed good.) Pull my screwdriver out - Minus the ending and > COVERED IN WET VARNISH! It's all over the place! These morons DUMPED A CAN > OF VARNISH in the computer, and didn't know about it! > It does power on though... > It comes up with the "insert a boot disk" icon. > ------- Well, if it IS 'varnish', you should be able to 'wash' things out with 'denatured alcohol'. The 'denatured alcohol' should be one of the more 'benign' solvents as far as the electronics are concerned. You _will_ have to re-lube the mechanics of the floppy though. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From tomowad at earthlink.net Sat Jun 27 18:41:37 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Message-ID: <199806272341.QAA26474@denmark.it.earthlink.net> >> Bob was just a dumb program. > >Bob was touted by Microsoft as the way user interfaces would work from >that point on. It was seen as a way to bring computers to mere consumers, >and launched at CES with great fanfare IIRC. What exactly is Bob? I've often see it mentioned, but never with any background to what it actually does. Thanks, Tom Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 27 18:52:28 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac In-Reply-To: <199806272341.QAA26474@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > What exactly is Bob? I've often see it mentioned, but never with any > background to what it actually does. Have you used Microsoft Word and had that stupid animated paperclip get in your way? Thank Bob. Bob was basically a bunch of animated "agents" that would detect that you were computer illiterate and then appear and offer advice to save you from yourself. I suspect that Gates was having an affair with the woman behind Bob, and that's the real reason he made a fool of himself by backing it in such a public manner. -- Doug From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jun 27 18:56:09 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: OS's In ROMs In-Reply-To: "Hotze" "Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))" (Jun 27, 14:41) References: <000401bda1c0$889e2420$ae67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <9806280056.ZM16324@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 27, 14:41, Hotze wrote: > Would it be possible to have a control chip and a OS chip? You've got the > control chip, which contains address information on the OS chip, as well as > other EXTREMELY basic ssytem info. Then you've got the OS chip, which > contains the OS. Because of the control chip, it could be as large as you > wanted it. > I've also heard of a "Windows 98 on a chip" system, with 75MBPS through > put. Sounds like the first decent way to load Windows... Well, you typically need 4 chips, since most ROMs are 8-bit wide, and most current processors are 32-bit, but allowing a little poetic licence, Windows on a chip is possible (and Windows CE is just that). > PS-Did any computers have GUI's built in? I think that I recall that > a Tandy did, but nothing else... Amiga? Archimedes/RISC PC? Atari ST/MegaST? all those have the GUI in ROM. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 27 19:01:06 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Olivetti M22 In-Reply-To: <199806272341.QAA26474@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I picked up an interesting laptop from circa 1986 today, the Olivetti M22. I've never seen one before, it has a very low serial number, and the only reference on the net appears to concern production delays and second thoughts about producing the thing, mostly because it has a 5.25" floppy drive and was scheduled to come out just after IBM intro'd their Convertible with 3.5" floppies. So, has anybody ever seen one of these things before? Unfortunately, it appears to have been left in a shallow pool of liquid: there is a small amount of rust on the back end, and the manual has become an unreadable organic thing that looks like it might be able to breed. -- Doug From cad at gamewood.net Sat Jun 27 19:10:30 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: XEROX 860 IPS Message-ID: <359589F6.187F@gamewood.net> Hi Folks: I was donated a XEROX 860 IPS. Portrait oriented Hi-Res display, 2 8" floppies. Keyboard with a circular 'touch pad' on the right end (of the keyboard) The Problem? I was just getting to the point of trying to 'backup' the software (disks), and look around in the system, and the 12v portion of the power supply died. No 12v, no boot. Anyone have any schematics for the power supply? Chuck . -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jun 27 19:16:41 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: "Hotze" "Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.." (Jun 27, 16:50) References: <002e01bda1d2$91302ea0$ae67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <9806280116.ZM16380@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 27, 16:50, Hotze wrote: > Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) > processors, or SGI MIPS processors. Or Acorn/Digital StrongARM. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jun 27 19:08:10 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive" (Jun 27, 9:56) References: <3.0.32.19980627074940.006b84c8@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jun 27 98 07:50:20 am Message-ID: <9806280108.ZM16357@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 27, 9:56, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I think some drives, includeing the RZ23 have a jumper setting to spin them > up, and some PC controllers might do this for you. Some of the RZ series do have a spin-up on power-up jumper, but the RZ23 isn't one of them :-( However, as someone else (Tim?) pointed out, most workstation controllers or OSs (as opposed to PC controllers/OSs) will take care of that. I have RZs on Acorn and SGI machines, but not, oddly, on any of my DEC ones. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From yowza at yowza.com Sat Jun 27 19:34:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <9806280116.ZM16380@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jun 27, 16:50, Hotze wrote: > > Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) > > processors, or SGI MIPS processors. > > Or Acorn/Digital StrongARM. Are you guys both smoking the same stuff? CE does not exist for PA-RISC or SGI MIPS, and while it does exist for Acorn/Digital/Intel ARM, it hasn't shipped on any real hardware platform that I know of. It has shipped on a couple of NEC MIPS derivatives and Hitachi SH. There is also support for ARM, PPC, and x86, but I haven't heard of any hardware shipping for those platforms. ObCC-Q: What was the first microprocessor-based box to run Unix? ObCC-A: The Z8000-based Onyx C8002 in 1980. -- Doug From kyrrin at jps.net Sat Jun 27 19:47:45 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Mayday! PDP-11/44 Power supply In-Reply-To: <13367199691.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980627123816.00e68a50@mail.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980627174745.00e5ed40@mail.wa.jps.net> At 12:40 27-06-98 -0700, you wrote: >[Bad PSU, 11/44] >Tell us what's inside and where it's at, for starters... ??? I'm not 100% sure what you're asking for, but I can say that I've not changed ANYthing in the internal card arrangement(s) since I pulled it out of St. Martins. Let me clarify. The unit initially powered up fine. It was after a few minutes of power-on time, and another power cycle, that everything went wonkers. That's what made me think something was right on the border of failing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 19:55:45 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Message-ID: <19980628005545.7263.qmail@hotmail.com> And then you will be remembered for generations to come as the father of computer collection. In 50 years or so, people will write your biographies and refer to the Technical Manual as the Tony Book. I guess I'd better get your autograph ahead of time... >Well, I guess I'll write some of these technical descriptions one >day, if only to fix in my own mind how the machines work. Some of >them will get distributed to a few interested friends. But I doubt if >any of them will ever be of mainstream interest. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Jun 27 20:01:09 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Message-ID: <19980628010109.4796.qmail@hotmail.com> It's a user interface. There was a little helper guy, who could be a puppy, smiley face, etc. Not >10 years yet. The metaphor was of a room. You would click on a calendar hanging on the wall to get an appointment book, for example. >What exactly is Bob? I've often see it mentioned, but never with any >background to what it actually does. > >Thanks, >Tom > >Sysop of Caesarville Online >Client software at: > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 20:19:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Mayday! PDP-11/44 Power supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980627174745.00e5ed40@mail.wa.jps.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Jun 27, 98 05:47:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1178 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980628/8aa8befc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 27 20:15:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big In-Reply-To: <19980628005545.7263.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Jun 27, 98 05:55:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 555 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980628/81081dca/attachment.ksh From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jun 27 20:57:57 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Mac Case popping, Was: GOOD LORD! VARNISH? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980627215303.00683c90@netpath.net> At 11:31 PM 6/27/98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >the battery cover and 2 in the handle. You need a long Torx driver for >the latter 2. For what it's worth: I have been using screwdrivers with the interchangable bits for some time now. When I first came into contact with a Mac SE, I went to sears and bought an extension for my present screwdriver. I keep that torx bit in the extension so it's right there whenever I need it, which has been quite alot lately, since I am rebuilding about 17 SE, SE/30, and Classic machines. Also, seems that every compact mac I have messed with has already had the case popped (according to the marks). What do I do if I come across a virgin that's never been popped so to speak? Is it harder to get the case off? - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Sat Jun 27 21:09:38 1998 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: FS: OLD calculators, computers, telephones, & software. Message-ID: <199806280209.WAA22480@golden.net> I'm trying to practice what I preach. I've written a book called A Guide To Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique. In it I recommend you should define and refine your collection to help maximize the pleasure you can obtain from it. Well I've decided to stick with my first love - mainframes with big control panels - and sell the rest. Sample of what you'll find in this message: o Millionaire calculators o Xerox Star o MOS Technologies KIM-1 o Convergent Technologies Workslate o Northern Telecom DV-1 telephone terminal o IBM PC LAN software. PLEASE SEND YOUR OFFERS AND QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME - NOT THROUGH THE LIST OR NEWSGROUP. P.S. I thought the Classiccomp list would like to see the calculators and telephones built into terminals also. I have the following items for sale: CALCULATORS ----------------------- Burroughs huge, black, hand crank, wide platten, 9x9 keyboard, window between front edge and keyboard, extra ribbon, Made in Canada seems to work and in good condition Egli, Hans, of Zurich Millionaires - one 16 digit (#1776) and one 20 digit (#2607) good condition Facit CI 13 working and in very good condition Friden STW Automatic Calculator with plastic cover no power cord, but in very good condition Monroe 145, made in Western Germany good condition National model 750207, 67-HX-5" huge, brown, hand crank not working, but in very good condition Remington Rand black, hand crank, wide platten not working, but in good condition HP HP-25 in original box and carrying case owner's manual, applications programs manual, quick reference guide, and ac adapter not working, but in very good condition Olympia CD 71 in carrying case with instruction booklet, ac adapter without plug to the calculator very good condition TI TI 30 with carrying case very good condition TI TI Programmable 59 Solid State Software lots of original keyboard templates, Master Library Modules, magnetic storage strips and read head cleaning strips, pocket case for templates, modules, and strips 9 calculators, but only 2 battery packs very good condition COMPUTERS --------------------- Apple III, 256K with monitor the following is all original manuals, diskettes, jackets, and boxes: o System Software, SOS, Utilities, and Emulation software and documentation. o Universal Parallel Interface and software driver, Visicalc sampler, Apple Writer III, Business BASIC, Business Graphics, System Demo, Maillist Manager, Letter Quality Printer Demo all in very good condition Apple Lisa 2 in original box only powered on twice original brochures and demos very good condition Convergent Tech Workslate original everything! working, in mint condition Data General One (2207) all original accessories and software: o carrying case, AC adapter, battery recharger, no name acoustic coupler cups, expansion adapter, DOS 2.11, Owner's Manual, Pocket Reference works in very good condition Dynalogic Hyperion 3032 - Agile OEM version (also Bytec) the following is all original: carrying case, Setup Guide, User Guide, Technical Ref Guide, Multiplan, In:Scribe, BASIC, In-Touch, Aladin working in very good condition Epson QX-10 (Q701A) no keyboard or monitor cables loaded with Valdocs software and user and developer documentation in good condition HP 150 Touch Screen PC w/9133D very good condition HP 150 Touch Screen PC w/9122D and HP-IB cable very good condition HP Portable Plus with original carrying case, AC adapter, Owner's manual IBM 5100 (C02), 5103 dot matrix printer original carrying case (weighs 60lb!) IBM 5100 binder containing: o original sales literature o original invoice o BASIC manual and 12 s/w or data tape cartridges works, but keyboard has problems very good condition IBM PCjr in large IBM attache case includes original AC adapter, TV Receiver VHF Terminal, Operating Instruction manual, and sampler diskette. MOS Technology KIM-1 original everything! in mint condition Modular Micros Zorba (Gemini GC-200) (div of Modcomp) works, very good condition North Star Horizon very good condition Xerox Star (8010) not working displays xxx msg very good condition Zenith ZFL-171-42 portable original carrying case and Owner's Manual, but copy of DOS 2 boot diskette. not working, in very good condition TELEPHONES ---------------------- AT&T very good condition Bynamics PhonePad original everything! not working, in mint condition IT&T InfoStation very good condition Northern Telecom Alex good condition Northern Telecom Displayphone missing AC adapter very good condition Northern Telecom DV-1 mint condition SOFTWARE ------------------- Aldus PageMaker 1.2 for Mac complete and original good condition Ann Arbor Softworks Full Paint complete and original good condition Apple MacDraw complete and original good condition IBM DOS 2.00 w/diskettes good condition IBM DOS 3.00 w/diskettes good condition IBM DOS 3.10 & 3.30 no diskettes poor condition IBM DOS 4.00 w/diskettes unused very good condition IBM OS/2 Warp Version 3 w/diskettes and CD unused very good condition IBM PC Local Area Network 1.10 complete and original good condition IBM PC Network Program 1.00 still shrink wrapped very good condition IBM PC Network Hardware Maintenance and Service complete and original good condition IBM PC 3270 Emulation 3.00 complete and original good condition IBM PC 3270 Emulation 2.00 original missing shelve good condition IBM PC/Host File Transfter and Terminal Emulator 1.10 complete and original good condition IBM BASIC manuals shrink wrapped very good condition IBM Pascal compiler complete and original good condition IBM Guide to Operations 2.02 complete and original good condition IBM Technical Reference PC very good condition IBM Proprinter maintenance manuals very good condition idd MacDraft 1.2 complete and original good condition Symantec Grandview complete and original good condition Vestronix Pro C complete and original good condition Trilogy complete and original good condition Xerox Ventura Publisher 2.0 complete and original... all 19, 360K diskettes! very good condition Zenith Z-100 PC Service Guide complete and original good condition Zenith Z-100 Disk-Based Diagnostics complete and original good condition ----------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf kstumpf@unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 (EST/EDT GMT-5) From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jun 27 21:11:40 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza's message of Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:38:33 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199806280211.TAA09872@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > Well, the DMV seems to have solved this problem -- I can never get my > license plate stickers off, even after 10+ years :-) Ha! I got an 8-year stack off mine late last year. Not because the adhesive let go though, the reflective paint on the plate did! But while I don't mind sticking that stuff on my license plates (after all, they're DMV property), I don't think I'd want to use it directly on artifacts! On storage bins/boxes, bags, and tags would be OK though. > And there's always good card stock tags and steel wire. Good choice, though I've been using the ones with string (vs. wire) to tag printed-circuit boards and some other things that look susceptible. > For the most part, I'm getting by > now with cardboard boxes and magic markers, but that renders my barcode > scanners useless, and it means that I usually stop short of writing the > entire contents on the box (due to laziness). Y'know, I've thought about barcode tagging a little bit, and I'm not sure how it would help, besides saving me from keying an object's item number to find the database record for this thing which I must be able to at least see, after all I can scan its barcode tag, right? > > OK, that said, the schema of my database looks something like this > [...] > > Looks good. I'll probably steal this, if you don't mind. No problem. If you have ideas for improvement feel free to share. Right now I'm thinking about whether the "notes" field should be split out into several note/memo fields for notes about relationships with other items, condition, work needing to be done, and other miscellany. That I lumped all this together in one note was part lack of knowledge about how I was going to use the note field in practice, and part architectural limitation of the in-ROM database software on the 100LX/200LX (which won't let you have more than one note field per record). > I'm a portable, wireless, and web zealot. I'll probably run the database > on one of my home Linuxboxen, which I can talk to via various > wireless-networked portables. (I have to admit that most of the wireless > portables are non-classic, but one of them is an early NEC CP/M portable > with a late 80's AirShare device.) This would free you from the memory > constraints of your HP200LX. (Did I mention that I have some PCMCIA > wireless LAN cards available for sale or trade?) Memory constraints? Don't be fooled by that "2MB RAM" logo above the screen, this 200LX has a 32MB RAMdisk daughterboard from Times2Tech. It's like having a turbo PC/XT in the palm of my hand. I'll give you points for using k00l technology to solve your problem, but I don't think it'd work for me. Most of my collection is not stored where I live, and between the storage locations, home, work, and some of the places I go in pursuit of Stuff, I think it'd be hard to pull off a "wireless LAN". They just aren't that local, nor are they line-of-sight in any way, nor are they all inside coverage areas excepting maybe cellphone coverage. Not that I care much -- my solution is aimed at answering my decaying-neuron questions, namely "have I got any of these?", "where are they?", and "are they so screwed up that I should be looking for another example?" As it happens it also will work pretty well for answering "what's in this box?" because I've got the box's ID in the location field, so can pull up all the records with a given box ID to get my answer. Well, it'd work that way if I actually had the inventory *done*. That's the other part of the problem, I think I'm less than 1/5 there, and what is done is in several pieces that correspond to various points in the evolution of this thing. The further I go, the more I learn. -Frank McConnell From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 27 21:32:46 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <199806280232.AA10528@world.std.com> I suppose SE30s and Mac IIs are 11 years old now! Yow. I still think of antique computers as 8-bit micros- that's just my own deluded sense of history. I bought an SE30 w/ Ethernet recently for $80 through the net. The owner showed up at my office one day recently and delivered it. The next week I also bought a Mac IIx w/ 8 megs of RAM for $25 at a Silicon Valley swap meet. A friend gave me a couple of Asante SCSI <-> Ethernet adapters which can normally be had for around $20 on eBay. I hadn't figured out much useful to do with these slower machines until... I found a very nice TCP/IP, etc packet monitor that runs on these machines. The "trial" version of this product (EtherPeek) is pretty hot in itself and is worth checking out. The full version is... unfortunately $700. I wish they'd sell the demo version with the 30-day time-bomb turned off for $100 as it's already more than what I need to monitor my cable-modem connection. Oddly... the Win32 version of EtherPeek is just so-so... I should add that in the case of SE30s, these things can sit on your desk, won't get knocked off like a laptop and are available for less than $100 with an ethernet card. This is an ideal niche machine for a packet monitor! http://www.aggroup.com - you have to download the app and then wait for the password to be e-mailed to you. ---- There was an article in the May issue of Popular Home Automation which piqued my interest in acquring these machines originally. It was entitled, "What I Did With The Mac in the Closet" and features a very vancy Macintosh/BSR controller system. This system can talk to wireless speakers in every room in the house. After taking the magazine home from the store where I found it, I realized this would be a social faux-pas in my house and decided to nix the idea. The software application that drives it is "XTension" by San Hill Engineering. It might still be fun to play with since the application is scriptable and can handle motion detectors and such. The application looks pretty nice. I wonder if the motion detectors would detect the squirrels I hear are supposed to gather from time to time in my detached garage. Hmm... The only other application I tho't of for the older Macs is as a dedicated Quick-cam machine. I must admit I use them for scanning in pictures occasionally - waiting for the images to be converted to JPEG is a hassle tho'. Thomas From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jun 27 22:15:32 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Mac Case popping Message-ID: <2c4325f8.3595b555@aol.com> i've never had a problem cracking macs. needless to say, dont even try to use a screwdriver to seperate it at the seam; you'll only ruin the plastic! the first way is to remove all the screws and lay the mac with the tube down in your lap. put your hands around thebottom corners of the mac, and then use your thumbs to push against the DB connectors back there. since you're actually then pushing against the system board inside, that usually does it. if that doesnt work, on to step 2. for step 2, thread the top two screws in, but only a few turns. DO NOT tighten them down! use your torx bit tool or whatever, and then push or lightly hammer on your tool. by doing this, you're acutally applying pressure through the loosened screws to the front half of the mac. that usually pops it loose. you can apply the same technique to the bottom screws also. i've done this to all compact macs except for the classic and cc models since i dont own one. hope i explained it clearly. david In a message dated 98-06-27 21:57:49 EDT, john higganbotham put forth: << Also, seems that every compact mac I have messed with has already had the case popped (according to the marks). What do I do if I come across a virgin that's never been popped so to speak? Is it harder to get the case off? >> From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Jun 27 22:30:33 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <008701bda245$30d8ce40$ae67bcc1@hotze> Well, I know that the HP's run off of PA-RISCs, and that Phillips Velos are SGI's. Also, theo ther processor support isn't in H/PC's, and it probably won't be. x86's used in the Elan SC400 based devices, I know that they're some mapping hanheld that uses that. PPC, and so forth will probably show up in the Jupiter-class 2Lb devices. Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, June 28, 1998 3:34 AM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. >On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On Jun 27, 16:50, Hotze wrote: >> > Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) >> > processors, or SGI MIPS processors. >> >> Or Acorn/Digital StrongARM. > >Are you guys both smoking the same stuff? CE does not exist for PA-RISC >or SGI MIPS, and while it does exist for Acorn/Digital/Intel ARM, it >hasn't shipped on any real hardware platform that I know of. > >It has shipped on a couple of NEC MIPS derivatives and Hitachi SH. There >is also support for ARM, PPC, and x86, but I haven't heard of any hardware >shipping for those platforms. > >ObCC-Q: What was the first microprocessor-based box to run Unix? > >ObCC-A: The Z8000-based Onyx C8002 in 1980. > >-- Doug > > From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jun 27 22:32:43 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: Mac Case popping Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980627232920.006bdc44@netpath.net> At 11:15 PM 6/27/98 EDT, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >loosened screws to the front half of the mac. that usually pops it loose. you >can apply the same technique to the bottom screws also. i've done this to all >compact macs except for the classic and cc models since i dont own one. hope i >explained it clearly. Thanks. I had heard of a "specialized" tool that Apple sold that would accomplish the task. Figured it was just a way for them to make more money. :) - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From higginbo at netpath.net Sat Jun 27 22:40:37 1998 From: higginbo at netpath.net (John Higginbotham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:54 2005 Subject: SE30s and IIX machines- Packet monitors and Home Automation Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980627234033.006bfc78@netpath.net> This is a coincidence! I just got an SE/30 and a Mac IIx too. I also have some of those Asante SCSI Network adapters. I'm wanting to network one of these with my PC, but I don't know where to start. I know linux supports Appletalk right out of the box so to speak, but I dual boot between in and Windows 98, and 98 is my primary OS for the most part. Now, I've never heard mention of Appletalk as a protocol under 95 or 98. Is it available? What other option do I have besides Appletalk? BTW, my only networking experience is with Novell Netware server and DOS/Win95/NT boxes. At 05:08 PM 6/27/98 PDT, Thomas Pfaff wrote: >I bought an SE30 w/ Ethernet recently for $80 through the net. The >owner showed up at my office one day recently and delivered it. The >next week I also bought a Mac IIx w/ 8 megs of RAM for $25 at a >Silicon Valley swap meet. A friend gave me a couple of Asante SCSI ><-> Ethernet adapters which can normally be had for around $20 on >eBay. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net - From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jun 27 23:13:33 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > I know we've been through this, but could someone summarize for me about > > the cassette port? What can be used with it? > > It was like the cassette port on (say) a TRS-80 or a C64. You could > (officially) use it from the ROM basic to save and load programs. It also > had motor control to turn the cassette recorder on and off automatically > - like a TRS-80. In fact the same cable and cassette recorder were used > with the IBM PC and with a TRS-80. The data formats were similar as well. Thanks for posting a more complete response than mine. I didn't think that perhaps Max is too young to remember using a cassette recorder and cassette tapes for program storage. I just assumed that everyone on this list would know that computers used to use tape recorders in olden days before disk drives came along. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From kyrrin at jps.net Sat Jun 27 23:23:49 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Making progress Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980627212349.00e57b40@mail.wa.jps.net> OK... I've made some progress. The fault light problem with my RA82 drive was cured by reseating all the connectors and pushing in the socketed chips (they crackled most satisfactorily). So now the RA82 passes all its tests, but I can't get the KDA-50 to see it. I've tried a couple of different boards. System is a MicroVAX II, 8 megs (well, 9 counting the CPU resident) memory, RQDX3 in one cabinet and the KDA50 board set in the other. RQDX3 has an RD52 and an RX50 on it, all of which are seen no problem by the diagnostics. The RQDX is at 772150 and the KDA-50 is at the next available MSCP floating address. Question: I've currently got both A and B port cables from the hard drive connected to ports 0 and 1 of the KDA-50 controller. Is this correct, or am I confusing the thing by feeding it back on itself? I'm glad this one's going better than my 11/44 did earlier today... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Jun 27 23:42:34 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: "No name" S-100 computer In-Reply-To: <199806272259.PAA19699@italy.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dave, I hope you don't mind me copying this reply to ClassicCmp as I think it may interest others as well. On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, dave dameron wrote: > Well I should see if I can visit up to the bay area at the VCF II time > and meet some people. That you should do! :) > Will there be registration later on the web site, or do you just show up > at the door? Are there a lot of individuals showing a few things (vs. > groups that appear to be the "private museums")? Thanks -Dave The web page has registration information now (see URL below), so if you go there you can get all the details. But basically, if you register now you pay $15 for full admission to both days and save $5. Otherwise its $10/day. The exhibition will consist of numerous private individuals and various user groups exhibiting their collections. There will be no overlapping, and everyone who is exhibiting is being selected for their particular genre. There will be Doug Salot and Roger Sinasohn doing a portables exhibit, Paul Zurikowski from the local Mac user group doing a complete Mac exhibit, Jordan Ruderman will be doing a Sol-20 exhibit, Larry Anderson will be doing a Commodore exhibit, I'm working with a guy who wants to do a PDP-8 exhibit, etc. I'm still looking for more exhibitors so if anyone is interested contact me. There will also be various museums making a presence, although they won't all be exhibiting. I'm currently working with The Computer Museum History Center to bring some of their artifacts to exhibit (I'm also working on scheduling tours to the History Center from VCF so out-of-town guests get a chance to see their amazing collection); David Hale, who is in the process of assembling a museum in Pennsylvania that will follow the progress of computers in different fields of technology will be driving out and bringing some computers with him to exhibit and some to sell (he was going to come to VCF 1.0 but got stuck in a big snow storm in Chicago; he also got a very rare kit computer from the 60s that he was bringing to VCF stolen while he was snowbound in the airport...long story); and finally I've invited David Weil, the curator of the Computer Museum of America in San Diego, to come up and setup a booth. So there will be at least a couple museums having a presence at VCF. I hope to get more, and I hope the VCF eventually becomes an event where computer museums from around the world gather once a year to share information and strategies. If you have anymore questions please ask! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jun 28 00:41:14 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Tomy Tutor Message-ID: Well, this month's TRW Swapmeet haul was pretty expens^H^H^H^H good: I found some old computer books, and some electronic music and acoustics texts from the 60s... and a neat HP 1/4" data recorder, four channels, FM, four speeds... nice for my restoration work. And an Edison cylinder recording for $10... (cool!) BUT.... (here's the on-topic part) I found a Tomy 16-Bit Graphics Tutor, along with another Commodore 64 and printer. [Anyone in SoCal want two C-64s, a disk drive and printer? Not really my 'thing'.. free to good home, you pay FedEx shipping...] Anyway.. This unit is slightly larger than the C-64, has a cartridge port on the top, an expansion bus port on the back, as well as a DIN for the cassette and a DB9 marked 'controller', and audio/video/RF RCA jacks. I have yet to plug it in. It is stock # 800, model # TP 1000. Is this thing anything? Is it priceless/worthless? Interesting/boring? I have never run across one in all my years collecting... ALSO: I'm still looking for the vacuum column door for a Kennedy 9300 9trk drive.... if another drive was available within reasonable going-and-getting distance I'd go for that, too. ALSO ALSO: The formatter card for the above, to fit a PDP 11/34a. Cheers John From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Jun 28 02:24:53 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <199806270240.TAA10561@norway.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199806280724.RAA13964@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 07:40 PM 26-06-98 -0700, Tom Owad wrote: >I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They certainly do boot >quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. Indeed they do, and yes, OS upgrades are ROM swaps which require a return to manufacturer. Most (all?) WinCE HPCs boot from ROM. OS upgrades require a ROM swap which, in the case of my HP320LX was a user action, easy too. Of course, this is somewhat off-topic :-) though I'm looking forward to my Newton becoming a classic so I can recoup some of the vast sums of money I spent on it :-) It now lives in the same cupboard as my Osborne.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jun 28 04:06:59 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 In-Reply-To: <199806280724.RAA13964@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: I picked up an ET-3400 6800 CPU trainer today. It was obviously abused by several students in a past life. I've resoldered its broken connections, and it seems to work OK, but I can't fully test it yet because I'm missing the seven-segment LEDs and the monitor ROM. I happended to have the manual for a 1977 version of this trainer, but my trainer appears to be from 1987 or so and has a few differences (for one, it uses a 6802 rather than a 6800). Luckily, the manual has a listing of the monitor ROM. But I don't have a 6800 assembler. So, does anybody have any of the following: 1) A monitor ROM image (preferably for a 1987 model) 2) A 6800 assembler (preferably Linux-hosted, but DOS will work) 3) The EPROM part number for this board (the man. mentions MCM6830A, but that doesn't ring a bell with me) 4) Part numbers for the 7-segment LEDs (I only have Heathkit part nos.) 5) A spare "1" key for my keypad :-) -- Doug From blindpete at stratos.net Sat Jun 27 18:46:37 1998 From: blindpete at stratos.net (blindpete@stratos.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Wang Thang Message-ID: <199806280946.CAA10695@mxu1.u.washington.edu> On 1998-06-27 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said: cl{On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Don Maslin wrote: cl{> Cannot help on the pinouts, but I think their monitor connector cl{>was unique. You need to boot it with Wang disks. They are in PC cl{>format, but the DOS is different. I have a set that I can copy cl{>when you get video going. cl{Great! I'll get various Kaypro stuff from you at the same time. ;) cl{Do you know what the monitor connector looks like? The only cl{possibilities are the DIN plugs on the back of the IBM Emulator cl{card. Unless the monitor was some kind of terminal that attached cl{to the serial port. cl{The 8-pin DIN plug has a little symbol next to it which might cl{represent a CRT. (It looks kind of like a pie slice.) cl{> As I recall, the IBM Emulator board really hacks the WangDOS to cl{>be more like PCDOS and it will then run many - but not all - cl{PCDOS programs. cl{Pretty big hack. A whole PC could fit on a card half that size. :) cl{> Don't believe the D-subs on the back are for monitor and keyboard, cl{>but it may be a different board than I ever saw. cl{Well, I don't know where else to put a monitor. The Wang keyboard cl{plugs into the 4-pin DIN socket connected to the machine's cl{motherboard, I can only guess what the other things are for. I'm cl{just scratching my head trying to figure out how to get a picture cl{from the thing. cl{> > The sticker on the side (top) of the machine says it's a PC-002, cl{>but the > sticker on the back says it's a PC-P002. cl{> > cl{> > The keyboard has a lot of word processing functions on it. cl{> That is what Wang really got established in. cl{Too bad the keyboard doesn't have the greatest feel. And some of cl{the keys are in the wrong places, but that's a holy war I don't cl{want to get into. ;) cl{> > Anyway, I haven't opened it up yet, or done anything with it cl{>but look at > it. Disassembly looks like it might be difficult, cl{>because I have to slip > the innards through the full length cl{>metal sleeve. I won't be up to that > until my arms recover. cl{>I've even got bruises and some kind of blood > blisters or cl{something, from carrying that thing. :/ > cl{> Stand it up on its face and lift the cover off. Everything cl{>inside is in a heavy guage wire frame. cl{Yeah, it took me a few minutes to figure it out, but it opened up cl{easily once I decided to pull from the back instead of the front. :) cl{> - don cl{Doug Spence cl{ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca cl{http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ Hi I used to have an old wang whith a 8086 cpu in it, it had a monotor whith two cords coming out of it. one was power and the other one was for the data, they both pluged into the card whith two plugs on it. the one I had used the round ps2 stile plug maybe a little bigger, like a keyboard plug. Pete Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Registered From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jun 28 05:40:31 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza "Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.." (Jun 27, 19:34) References: Message-ID: <9806281140.ZM16800@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 27, 19:34, Doug Yowza wrote: > Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > On Jun 27, 16:50, Hotze wrote: > > > Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) > > > processors, or SGI MIPS processors. > > > > Or Acorn/Digital StrongARM. > > Are you guys both smoking the same stuff? CE does not exist for PA-RISC > or SGI MIPS, and while it does exist for Acorn/Digital/Intel ARM, it > hasn't shipped on any real hardware platform that I know of. > > It has shipped on a couple of NEC MIPS derivatives and Hitachi SH. MIPS chips are MIPS chips. SGI own MIPS, but don't manufacture the devices. NEC, Philips, Toshiba, amongst others, do, but they didn't design them. The VR4xxx series that NEC use are derivatives of the standard R4000 and R5000 series. You're possibly right about ARM and CE, though. Several companies have licenced the technology, but most of the ARM-based devices (eg the Psion 5, Newton) use Psion's OS or JavaOS, not CE. > There > is also support for ARM, PPC, and x86, but I haven't heard of any hardware > shipping for those platforms. > ObCC-Q: What was the first microprocessor-based box to run Unix? > > ObCC-A: The Z8000-based Onyx C8002 in 1980. What about the 11/23 systems Bell Labs were using in 1978? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Jun 28 05:54:27 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: <35946CA1.5522@gamewood.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Charles A. Davis wrote: > Wang, has their own 'Shell' to go into things with (I.E. menus). > The system that I was working on was DOS 3.1 or 3.2 (a ways back). Does the menu come up even when it hasn't managed to find a disk to boot from? The reason I ask is that there seem to be four keys that have different effects. I don't have any kind of monitor attached to the thing, so I can only make guesses based on the sounds the keyboard makes. (The system's speaker is located in the keyboard.) The four keys that do something are 'P', 'Q', 'D', and 'M'. Pressing 'P' has the most interesting effect. It seems to perform a cold boot. All six lights on the keyboard (including the caps lock light) turn on, then turn off in sequence. First off is the caps lock light, then the red LED at the left side of the keyboard, and so on to the right. There's quite a long pause between the third red LED and the fourth one, so it's probably performing a RAM check. After all the lights are out, there's a pause, then a beep, and then the floppy drive spins up. It whirrs for a couple of seconds and stops with a beep. This can be repeated endlessly by pressing 'P' over and over again, and is kind of fun. :) Pressing 'Q' just clicks the keyboard (most keys beep), then beeps, pauses, and beeps again. After the second beep the machine seems to be back in its original state again (where one can watch the blinkenleitz by pressing 'P', etc.) Pressing 'D' causes a beep, and then all the other keys click instead of beeping. The user is probably typing into some kind of shell at this point. Hitting followed by seems to get the machine back to the original state. Pressing 'M' seems to just make every key beep, and I haven't found a way out of this mode. > The problem ---- > > IF you entered the BASIC development system via the WANG menus, the 'F' > keys (and the 'HELP key', and the other 'special keys) had one set of > 'keystrokes' to return. > > On the other hand, if you 'bailed out' of the 'WANG' system, and changed > directories, and started "GWBasic" from a 'C:/' prompt, then the 'F' key > information was different. (It's a long story how I found this out.) > > It DID cause a bit of hassle. Thanks for the warning. :) > Chuck Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Jun 28 06:15:39 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: <199806270230.WAA21184@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: I fully disassembled the Wang machine last night, so I can state a couple of things more clearly. On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Lawrence Walker wrote: > I'm sure eventually a KB will turn up for mine. Someone mentioned that they had seen one. (Joe?) > When you do disassemble it there are 2 34 pin older style connectors on > the MB above two slots leading to the drive bays.. In mine I can find no > floppy connectors. The only connectors I could find were on the right hand edge of the board. They are indeed 34-pin connectors, with hinged clips on the sides that actually push the connector out of the socket when you push them apart. The cables that are plugged into these sockets do lead to the floppy drives. The connectors are labeled J5 and J6 on the motherboard. They're blue on my machine. I had no expectations about what a floppy controller connector would look like, so I don't consider these connectors to be strange. I noticed some switches on the motherboard, too. At the moment they're in the 'record the position but don't mess with' category. They're ON, ON, ON, and OFF. :) > AAAhh Montreal I remember when it was an international city. not > a provincial capital. Well, we know who's to blame. But we should leave it on some politics list. > ciao larry > > lwalker@interlog.com Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Jun 28 06:29:11 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Next to that, is what appears to be an empty slot, and > > > then there is what appears to be some kind of networking card. It has two > > > coaxial cable connectors and a toggle switch. There is another card > > IIRC Wang used a curious interface on some of their machines with a BNC > and a TNC (like a BNC, but screwlock) connector. Is that what you have? Humm. I hadn't paid attention to them, but the two connectors are slightly different. One is ribbed on the outside, the other is quite smoothe but with two flat, round protrusions sticking out, opposite one another. Kind of like the Frankenstein Monster's neck. :) Is this what you mean? > -tony Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From cad at gamewood.net Sun Jun 28 07:15:30 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Wang Thang References: Message-ID: <359633E2.17F@gamewood.net> Doug Spence wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Charles A. Davis wrote: > > > Wang, has their own 'Shell' to go into things with (I.E. menus). > > The system that I was working on was DOS 3.1 or 3.2 (a ways back). > > Does the menu come up even when it hasn't managed to find a disk to boot > from? Hi Doug: The 'Wang Shell', is 'after' the load of the 'Wang DOS system'. The _problem_ is a software 'keyboard mapping' problem. I complained long and loud to 'Wang' tech support at the time. The system that I was working on had a Hard Disk, so I never saw any of the possible 'no boot' conditions. > snip Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jun 28 07:58:24 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Tomy Tutor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980628075824.006ce948@pop3.concentric.net> I have about 10 of these things all working but do not know the value if any of it. I think I have some doc's back in Houston I will look this coming weekend as I will be there for 4 days. John At 10:41 PM 6/27/98 -0700, you wrote: > > > Well, this month's TRW Swapmeet haul was pretty expens^H^H^H^H >good: I found some old computer books, and some electronic music >and acoustics texts from the 60s... and a neat HP 1/4" data >recorder, four channels, FM, four speeds... nice for my restoration >work. And an Edison cylinder recording for $10... (cool!) > > BUT.... (here's the on-topic part) I found a Tomy 16-Bit Graphics >Tutor, along with another Commodore 64 and printer. [Anyone in SoCal >want two C-64s, a disk drive and printer? Not really my 'thing'.. >free to good home, you pay FedEx shipping...] Anyway.. > > This unit is slightly larger than the C-64, has a cartridge port >on the top, an expansion bus port on the back, as well as a DIN for >the cassette and a DB9 marked 'controller', and audio/video/RF RCA >jacks. I have yet to plug it in. It is stock # 800, model # TP 1000. > > Is this thing anything? Is it priceless/worthless? >Interesting/boring? I have never run across one in all my years >collecting... > > ALSO: I'm still looking for the vacuum column door for a Kennedy >9300 9trk drive.... if another drive was available within >reasonable going-and-getting distance I'd go for that, too. > > ALSO ALSO: The formatter card for the above, to fit a PDP 11/34a. > > Cheers > >John > > > From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sun Jun 28 08:28:02 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <9806281140.ZM16800@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 28, 98 10:40:31 am Message-ID: <199806281328.JAA07579@shell.monmouth.com> > > ObCC-Q: What was the first microprocessor-based box to run Unix? > > > > ObCC-A: The Z8000-based Onyx C8002 in 1980. > > What about the 11/23 systems Bell Labs were using in 1978? > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > It depends whether you consider the 11/23 a mini or micro. Actually, they had a Mini-UNIX running on 11/03's downloaded from 11/45's (if my memory is correct). Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 28 07:32:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Wang Thang In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 28, 98 07:29:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1036 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980628/8f335b47/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 28 07:20:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Mac Case popping, Was: GOOD LORD! VARNISH? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980627215303.00683c90@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jun 27, 98 09:57:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 446 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980628/e7760e45/attachment.ksh From tomowad at earthlink.net Sun Jun 28 09:05:17 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Mac Case popping Message-ID: <199806281405.HAA21430@denmark.it.earthlink.net> >i've never had a problem cracking macs Just make sure you don't mix a Platinum front panel from a Mac Plus with one of the older beige backs. I inadvertantly did this a few months ago and they're still together. Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sun Jun 28 09:07:13 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: SE30s and IIX machines- Packet monitors and Home Automation In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980627234033.006bfc78@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jun 27, 98 11:40:37 pm Message-ID: <199806281407.KAA23021@shell.monmouth.com> > > This is a coincidence! I just got an SE/30 and a Mac IIx too. I also have > some of those Asante SCSI Network adapters. I'm wanting to network one of > these with my PC, but I don't know where to start. I know linux supports > Appletalk right out of the box so to speak, but I dual boot between in and > Windows 98, and 98 is my primary OS for the most part. Now, I've never > heard mention of Appletalk as a protocol under 95 or 98. Is it available? > What other option do I have besides Appletalk? I think Appletalk's available on NT Servers. Easy, run TCP/IP on the Apple, run NETATALK or CAP and Samba on the linux (I'm using FreeBSD here) as the central server or hub and run Microsoft networking with TCP/IP on the Winxxx boxes. works great here... I've got a MacIIfx, Win95, Win3.1, OS/2, Linux and FreeBSD all talking. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From mark_k at iname.com Sun Jun 28 10:40:26 1998 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Reading PALs Message-ID: Hi, Though perhaps not strictly on-topic, is there any way to read PALs, short of buying a hugely expensive "universal" device programmer? I have several things that have PALs in, and I want to read them somehow to help me figure out how they work. On a slightly different subject, has anyone written a program to dump the BIOS of an old (or new, I guess) PC to disk? -- Mark From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Jun 28 08:41:34 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) Message-ID: <000501bda2a4$ab4983e0$f66e2599@mainoffice> I have the same inventory tracking problems, too. I don't have a complete invetory of anything but my 11/34a stuff. In the accounting profession, what we need is an "inventory locator system." I have the beginnings of this in an Excel spreadsheet. The spreadsheet indicates the DEC "M" number, description, and the location: the main chassis, expansion chassis, or in "stores." I, too, want to go the barcode inventory route. Thinking out loud, if someone could get their hands on a shareware point-of-sale inventory package for a PC, that might do the trick. I see ads in PC Magazine all the time for POS systems and software, but I don't want to spend several hundred $$$$ for it. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin! Charter Member - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Preserver of "classic" computers <<<< ========== reply separator ========== >>>>> From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Jun 28 10:53:02 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980628085302.00e6d1c0@mail.wa.jps.net> At 15:40 28-06-98 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, > >Though perhaps not strictly on-topic, is there any way to read PALs, short of >buying a hugely expensive "universal" device programmer? None that I'm aware of. The other possible issue is that most PALs have what's called a 'security' fuse. If that's been popped during programming (there is an option in most programmers to do so, including my UniSite), then the PAL's fuse pattern is rendered completely unreadable. All it will do is function as programmed. How many do you have? If you don't mind mailing one or more to me, I'd be happy to try and read them, and store the map image (if readable -- see above) on a floppy for you, then send the chips and floppy back to you. FWIW, I've seen Data I/O 29 series programmers turn up fairly inexpensively (around the $100-$150 range) on the used market. I don't know where you're located, but if you can get hold of a 29B, with the LogicPak plug-in, you'd be able to read most of the PALs that were used in 'classic' equipment at least. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From blindpete at stratos.net Sun Jun 28 01:07:05 1998 From: blindpete at stratos.net (blindpete@stratos.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Wang Thang Message-ID: <199806281607.JAA19558@mxu1.u.washington.edu> The m I think if I remember it rite takes the user in to wang's ver of msdos, The way to get back in, hmm might have been EXIT. the one I had had a ten meg winchester hard drive, that was some drive, I think it was made of cast iron well, the case at any rate. It also had a glass like cover ocovering up the iners of the harddrive. The two 5.52 flopys wore 180 K and conected to the mother board. It does slide out of the sleeve quite nicely, the two cards that are conected togather are lan and mem ory combination, I think, when I removed them I had less memory. I found out why it wouldn't boot, it was a pin on the c p u didn't make it in the hole, when some one tryed to plug it in, straitening the pin cracked it off, ****! I thought about it for some time and used a peese of coper wire to fix it, first I incerted the wire into the hole whear the broken pin would have been once the chip was pluged in, I don't remember how I was able to locate the hole, I don't have to tell you how tiny they are, the chip still had a bit id the broken pin sticking out of the side of it, not enough to solder , but enough to make a tite contact whith the coper wire, after the chip was plugged back in I trimed itso it didn't stick up a half inchbut just a little over the top of the chip. It worked! I can't remember if it booted in a wordprosesser or a menu, I think it was a word prosessor. I seem to remember some thing funy about the program was you couldn't quit it , it would not let you I think it just rebooted, unless you had a flopy in drive A:. The not so funy thing about the monotor is the power and data cords coming out of it both had the same plug on the end of them, and pluging the data plug in to the power socket on the vidio card was a hasard. Since they wore bothe the same kind of plug I tied a twist tie around the power plug just to let me know whitch was whitch, just incase I got the ich to use the monoter when I was writting stuff in the word prosesser. Oh well, It was still is a great machine albeit huge! Pete Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Registered From mailroom at knorr.com Sun Jun 28 14:25:54 1998 From: mailroom at knorr.com (Knorr Associates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: PDP-8 Message-ID: <359698C2.6938@knorr.com> What's the current availability of the PDP-8/E systems? Any DECtape, other devices, too? OS/8 operating system? From Archive at navix.net Sun Jun 28 13:26:46 1998 From: Archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: C-Nets Windows history story Message-ID: <35968AE5.AF2B7898@navix.net> Makes for some interesting reading, anyway.... talks of Microsoft, Apple, Atari, IBM, Xerox, HP, and others as the story traces a time-line of Microsoft Windows. Here's a cut and paste to get you to the story: Microsoft's latest OS offering didn't invent itself, and neither did the first Windows apps. It was a long, sometimes painful evolutionary period spanning at least the last 30 years. Would it surprise you to know that Atari was a contender for the OS crown? Find out how, and more, in our feature story "30 years of Windows: a retrospective." It's an enlightening look at the history of the Windows OS, and the history of computing itself. http://www.cnet.com/Content/Features/Special/30Years/index.html?dd.sd -- ____________________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | | on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |------------------------------------------------------------| | | If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | | | chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | | |____________________________________________________________| | \_____________________________________________________________\| From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 28 11:44:02 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: EXO Corporation singleboard? Message-ID: <199806281644.JAA07465@daemonweed.reanimators.org> A couple of weeks ago someone thrust this bag into my hands and suggested that I find out about it. In the finest tradition of getting the 'net to do my homework for me, I did a few web searches that gave me a lot of false leads and no real info, and now I'm pestering y'all. So what's in the bag? It's a Z80 singleboard, 4 15/16" x 6 3/4" (12.6cm x 17.1 cm for you metric-threaded folks). Legends in the component-side traces include an "EXO corporation" logo, "(C) 1982" (where (C) is the C-in-circle copyright symbol), and "1010A" which I guess is a part or model number. There's a terminal strip off to one side which I am guessing (from the ICs and a little bit of follow-the-traces that is about the limit of my know-how) is intended to be connections for power, interrupt lines, and a serial port. And there are three 34-pin (2x17) plugs in about the middle of the board. Significant ICs would seem to be an SGS Z80A, a National 2716 EPROM, nine Hitachi HM4864P-2, Zilog Z8410A (DMA) and Z8440A (SIO/O), National MC1489P and two TI SN101057 on the way to that terminal strip, and a couple of what I guess are some sort of programmable logic in 20-pin DIPs whose markings have been removed so that "(C) 1981... EXO SYS. CORP." can be stamped on top. Anybody know what this is, or anything about the company, or any better places to look? I'm guessing "singleboard for control system" but that is pretty much outside my know-how. And how did I get into this fix? I suspect it's karmic payback for something I said a couple hours before at the Foothill swap meet. Someone showed me a 68000 singleboard (not too different) and I said something like "once upon a time I'd have found that a really neat hacker toy, now I don't think I have time for it." There's clues in here somewhere, but I don't think I've figured out which ones I'm supposed to pay attention to. -Frank McConnell From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jun 28 12:27:22 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Tomy Tutor and C-64 Message-ID: The Commodore systems have been spoken for, thanks for all of the replies from the list. I will also reply to each of you who wrote me personally.. but a public thanks is in order as well. Cheers John From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 28 13:08:05 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: SE30s and IIX machines- Packet monitors and Home Automation In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980627234033.006bfc78@netpath.net> Message-ID: >This is a coincidence! I just got an SE/30 and a Mac IIx too. I also have >some of those Asante SCSI Network adapters. I'm wanting to network one of >these with my PC, but I don't know where to start. I know linux supports >Appletalk right out of the box so to speak, but I dual boot between in and >Windows 98, and 98 is my primary OS for the most part. Now, I've never >heard mention of Appletalk as a protocol under 95 or 98. Is it available? >What other option do I have besides Appletalk? > >BTW, my only networking experience is with Novell Netware server and >DOS/Win95/NT boxes. Probably the best solution is to take an older PC either a 386 or 486, with a network card in it and install Linux. On this machine set up Netatalk, NFS, Samba, and your FTP so they will all access the same drive. This way you've got a drive that you can pretty much share between all systems on your network. I'm using a 486/33 that has been running Linux since 0.12, and am able to access it from my various machines running MacOS, Linux, VMS, Amiga OS, Win95, and BeOS. I just wish Linux supported DECnet! I can also connect a few other systems to it via a serial connection. It even has a C-1541 drive attached to it, that can be used when I boot it to DOS, or I can run programmes like Putr on it to use it's built in 5 1/4" drive. It's my "Great Integrator". Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jun 28 13:25:32 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: C-Nets Windows history story In-Reply-To: <35968AE5.AF2B7898@navix.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn wrote: > Makes for some interesting reading, anyway.... talks of Microsoft, > Apple, Atari, IBM, Xerox, HP, and others as the story traces a > time-line of Microsoft Windows. > > http://www.cnet.com/Content/Features/Special/30Years/index.html?dd.sd I commend Cnet for this article. These types of stories are important. It keeps the masses informed about the true origins of computing. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jun 28 13:29:26 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <9806281140.ZM16800@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > MIPS chips are MIPS chips. SGI own MIPS, but don't manufacture the > devices. NEC, Philips, Toshiba, amongst others, do, but they didn't design > them. The VR4xxx series that NEC use are derivatives of the standard R4000 > and R5000 series. Didn't SGI recently re-spinoff MIPS as an independent concern? In any case, while the core ISA should be the same, NEC developed the VR4101 and VR4102 specifically for CE, and I doubt that you'll find the chips in any SGI box. I got invalid links when I tried to look at the specs at NEC's site, but I think the CE-specifics were probably in areas of power management and on-chip peripherals. I also looked at HP's specs for their handhelds, and their marketdroids simply listed "RISC" processor in an effort to hide the fact that their not using their own processors, I suppose. > You're possibly right about ARM and CE, though. Several companies have > licenced the technology, but most of the ARM-based devices (eg the Psion 5, > Newton) use Psion's OS or JavaOS, not CE. It's public knowledge that Microsoft added ARM support for WinCE 2.1, but that version of the OS is not shipping for any platform. In fact, 2.1 was still beta last I checked (a couple of weeks ago). > > ObCC-Q: What was the first microprocessor-based box to run Unix? > > > > ObCC-A: The Z8000-based Onyx C8002 in 1980. > > What about the 11/23 systems Bell Labs were using in 1978? I have to plead DEC-hardware ignorance. Did the 11/23 use a single-chip micro (the LSI-11, according to Allison)? If so, then please add "non-DEC" to my Q :-) -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Jun 28 13:48:17 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: C-Nets Windows history story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Makes for some interesting reading, anyway.... talks of Microsoft, > > Apple, Atari, IBM, Xerox, HP, and others as the story traces a > > time-line of Microsoft Windows. > > > > http://www.cnet.com/Content/Features/Special/30Years/index.html?dd.sd > > I commend Cnet for this article. These types of stories are important. > It keeps the masses informed about the true origins of computing. Although I should include that the story is mostly fluff, could have used more in depth research, and has some parts wrong (ie. the Lisa did not run the Xerox Star OS as the article says!) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 28 13:07:19 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980628085302.00e6d1c0@mail.wa.jps.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Jun 28, 98 08:53:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2726 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980628/925c98ab/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 28 15:50:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 28, 98 01:29:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 725 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980628/225882bb/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jun 28 16:02:27 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza "Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.." (Jun 28, 13:29) References: Message-ID: <9806282202.ZM17255@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 28, 13:29, Doug Yowza wrote: > Didn't SGI recently re-spinoff MIPS as an independent concern? In any > case, while the core ISA should be the same, NEC developed the VR4101 and > VR4102 specifically for CE, and I doubt that you'll find the chips in any > SGI box. I got invalid links when I tried to look at the specs at NEC's > site, but I think the CE-specifics were probably in areas of power > management and on-chip peripherals. Yes, lots of companies like MIPS, Digital, ARM, Motorola, etc etc make the core designs available for others to incorporate in their customised processors, and I had no doubt that that's just what NEC did. Sometimes the design owner does the customisation, sometimes the company who want the custom version. NEC would have the experise to do it themselves, I'm sure. All I meant was that it would still basically be a MIPS core, with a standard architecture and instruction set. I hadn't heard about MIPS being separated again. Given what SGI are doing at the moment, I wouldn't be surprised. > It's public knowledge that Microsoft added ARM support for WinCE 2.1, but > that version of the OS is not shipping for any platform. In fact, 2.1 was > still beta last I checked (a couple of weeks ago). I confess that I pay little attention to WinCE and even less to version numbers :-) > I have to plead DEC-hardware ignorance. Did the 11/23 use a single-chip > micro (the LSI-11, according to Allison)? If so, then please add > "non-DEC" to my Q :-) Yes, the 11/23 used the F-11 chip, which is a single 40-pin package. There are optional add-ons, but the basic processer is just one ceramic object -- though anyone who looks at it will immediately see that it's actually two smaller packages (essentially, one for ALU and one for microcode) mounted on a common carrier with a few chip capacitors for good measure. I didn't mention the 11/03 because although it's often described as a microprocessor, it's actually a set of 4 40-pin chips (5 with optional EIS/FIS instructions) called a D-11. That's the one often called an LSI-11, although strictly speaking LSI-11 refers to a particular processor board. And I deliberately didn't give more detail about the unix systems, because I can't remember what Bell called those little systems, and I don't have the reprints of the AT&T Technical Journal to hand :-) I'm fairly sure there was a stand-alone system using RX02s. Of course, you could also count 11/23 systems running standard 7th Edition Unix (1979) on RL02s, like the one I have here. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mbg at world.std.com Sun Jun 28 16:33:41 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <199806282133.AA22227@world.std.com> >I have to plead DEC-hardware ignorance. Did the 11/23 use a single-chip >micro (the LSI-11, according to Allison)? If so, then please add >"non-DEC" to my Q :-) The 11/23, 11/23+ and 11/24 all used the same chip set. The actual processor existed as two chips mounted on one carrier. This was the DCF-11 (the 'Fonz') chip. The memory management unit was a second chip and the floating point unit was a third chip (again, actually two chips on one carrier). In addition, there was a CIS (commerical instruction set) chip which was 6 chips on a single carrier (I have a couple of 11/23+ boards with CIS). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jun 28 16:40:41 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Not single chip, but certainly a single chipset. [...] > I class that as a micro, but I don't know if others would. So, where do you draw the line? I draw it at one piece of silicon that can stand alone with the usual support chips (ROM, RAM, glue chips). -- Doug From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Jun 28 17:19:49 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 Message-ID: <199806282219.PAA20782@italy.it.earthlink.net> At 04:06 AM 6/28/98 -0500, Doug wrote: >I picked up an ET-3400 6800 CPU trainer today. It was obviously abused by >several students in a past life. I've resoldered its broken connections, >and it seems to work OK, but I can't fully test it yet because I'm missing >the seven-segment LEDs and the monitor ROM. > >I happended to have the manual for a 1977 version of this trainer, but my >trainer appears to be from 1987 or so and has a few differences (for one, >it uses a 6802 rather than a 6800). Luckily, the manual has a listing of >the monitor ROM. But I don't have a 6800 assembler. > >So, does anybody have any of the following: > >1) A monitor ROM image (preferably for a 1987 model) >2) A 6800 assembler (preferably Linux-hosted, but DOS will work) >3) The EPROM part number for this board (the man. mentions MCM6830A, but >that doesn't ring a bell with me) >4) Part numbers for the 7-segment LEDs (I only have Heathkit part nos.) >5) A spare "1" key for my keypad :-) > I kooked on the net, but didn't find any info on the ET-3400. I did find this page on the EC-1, however: http://www.cyberventure.com/heathkit/computers/ec-1.html At least the LED's should be able to be replaced if uou know their sizes and whether C Anode or C Cathode. Looking in catalogs like Jameco, the part numbers don't help my memory, but the size/descriptions do. Have wished to see a Heath cross reference for things like IC's, transistors., collected from a large number of their manuals. I have at least 1 2716 with a Heath number on it- have no idea what it's for. -Dave From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Jun 28 17:22:31 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Way to identify original IBM-PC? Message-ID: <19980628222232.5486.qmail@hotmail.com> Remember: I'm the same copyright as the C-64 >Thanks for posting a more complete response than mine. I didn't think >that perhaps Max is too young to remember using a cassette recorder and >cassette tapes for program storage. I just assumed that everyone on this >list would know that computers used to use tape recorders in olden days >before disk drives came along. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 06/11/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Sun Jun 28 19:23:07 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 In-Reply-To: <199806282219.PAA20782@italy.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, dave dameron wrote: > I kooked on the net, but didn't find any info on the ET-3400. I did find When I kooked on the net, I found that heathkit is *still* selling this trainer (at over 20 years, it must have the longest production run of any computer): http://www.heathkit.com/hardware.html#anchor326400 I'll call them during the week to see if they'll offer helpful hints. -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 28 19:30:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Jun 28, 98 04:40:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980629/2717493a/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 28 21:03:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. Message-ID: <199806290203.AA26843@world.std.com> You could have said single chip CPU but in reality what does that mean as 8088 required a 8084a clock driver and many other chips in practical use are never quite single chips unless you mean an 8048 or 8051! Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > I have about 10 of these things all working but do not know the value if > any of it. I think I have some doc's back in Houston I will look this > coming weekend as I will be there for 4 days. John > At 10:41 PM 6/27/98 -0700, you wrote: I believe the Tomy Tutor is roughly based on the TI 99/4A computer, although the two systems are not compatible with each other. . . From donm at cts.com Sun Jun 28 22:22:16 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: Reading PALs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Mark wrote: > Hi, > > Though perhaps not strictly on-topic, is there any way to read PALs, short of > buying a hugely expensive "universal" device programmer? I have several things > that have PALs in, and I want to read them somehow to help me figure out how > they work. > > On a slightly different subject, has anyone written a program to dump the BIOS > of an old (or new, I guess) PC to disk? You should be able to do it with DEBUG. - don > -- Mark > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From donm at cts.com Sun Jun 28 22:33:19 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: EXO Corporation singleboard? In-Reply-To: <199806281644.JAA07465@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 28 Jun 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > A couple of weeks ago someone thrust this bag into my hands and > suggested that I find out about it. In the finest tradition of > getting the 'net to do my homework for me, I did a few web searches > that gave me a lot of false leads and no real info, and now I'm > pestering y'all. > > So what's in the bag? It's a Z80 singleboard, 4 15/16" x 6 3/4" > (12.6cm x 17.1 cm for you metric-threaded folks). Legends in the > component-side traces include an "EXO corporation" logo, "(C) 1982" > (where (C) is the C-in-circle copyright symbol), and "1010A" which I > guess is a part or model number. There's a terminal strip off to one > side which I am guessing (from the ICs and a little bit of > follow-the-traces that is about the limit of my know-how) is intended > to be connections for power, interrupt lines, and a serial port. And > there are three 34-pin (2x17) plugs in about the middle of the board. > > Significant ICs would seem to be an SGS Z80A, a National 2716 EPROM, > nine Hitachi HM4864P-2, Zilog Z8410A (DMA) and Z8440A (SIO/O), > National MC1489P and two TI SN101057 on the way to that terminal > strip, and a couple of what I guess are some sort of programmable > logic in 20-pin DIPs whose markings have been removed so that "(C) > 1981... EXO SYS. CORP." can be stamped on top. > > Anybody know what this is, or anything about the company, or any > better places to look? I'm guessing "singleboard for control system" > but that is pretty much outside my know-how. There was an EXO CP/M computer way back, but it used 8" drives and I doubt that your board went with them :) Could be tha same company, though. - don > And how did I get into this fix? I suspect it's karmic payback for > something I said a couple hours before at the Foothill swap meet. > Someone showed me a 68000 singleboard (not too different) and I said > something like "once upon a time I'd have found that a really neat > hacker toy, now I don't think I have time for it." There's clues in > here somewhere, but I don't think I've figured out which ones I'm > supposed to pay attention to. > > -Frank McConnell > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Jun 29 02:10:57 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <199806281328.JAA07579@shell.monmouth.com> References: <9806281140.ZM16800@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199806290710.RAA16775@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:28 AM 28-06-98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: >It depends whether you consider the 11/23 a mini or micro. Both :-) But given that it has a single chip implementation of the CPU (commonly known as a microprocessor :-) I'd have to call it a micro... Certainly my 11/83 is a micro/mini/as fast as an VAX-11/780 so I'm not sure whether its a micro/mini/super-mini :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 29 06:08:13 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Message-ID: <199806291108.AA25922@world.std.com> Driver file? What driver file? You mean that's been my problem? manney@lrbcg.com > >720K drives will work fine on the original drive controller AFTER you load >the driver file. I've done it dozens of times to connect my NEC >Multi-Speed drives to the PC. The only problem is that you can't boot from >them since the driver has to be loaded for them to work. I don't *think* >the 1.44 Mb drives will work on the controller though. > > Joe > >At 01:24 AM 6/27/98 +0100, you wrote: >>> The 3.5" drive requires a special controller card that I find rare. Snag >it! >> >>My IBM XT is looking worried. It's been running fine for years with the >>original IBM controller linked to 2 360K drives and 2 720K 3.5" drives. >>And you're telling it it shouldn't work? >> >>720K 3.5" drives work fine on the original IBM controller using a >>suitable cable and not other mods. I believe drive A: should be a 360K >>drive, but apart from that there's no real problem. >> >>-tony >> >> > From kyrrin at jps.net Mon Jun 29 08:20:27 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (kyrrin@jps.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: FW: Fellow wants a VAX, any VAX... In-Reply-To: <359713F4.DA351ACA@intop.net> References: <359713F4.DA351ACA@intop.net> Message-ID: <359b9455.1016264240@smtp.wa.jps.net> Found on Usenet. If you can help, please contact this guy directly. Thanks. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:11:32 -0500, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>Message-ID: <359713F4.DA351ACA@intop.net> >>Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:11:32 -0500 >>From: "J. S. Havard" >>Reply-To: enigma@intop.net >>Organization: intop.net >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec >>Subject: WANTED: VAX (any variant) >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-dialip074.intop.net >>Lines: 18 >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.71.1.51!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!heresy.intop.net!ppp-dialip074.intop.net >> >>If you are going to throw out a VAX, working or not, and are in >>Mississippi, eastern Louissiana and Arkansas, or western Alabama, please >>let me know and I will look into it. >> >>Also, anybody with any old CDC, Honeywell, Imprimis, or Magnetic >>Peripheral drives, please contact me. I have a Honeywell DPS6 and the >>strange front loading discs have a broken belt. >> >>Thanks in advance, >>John Havard >>-- >>----=(enigma@intop.net)=--------------------------------------------- >>A novice was trying to fix a broken Lisp machine by turning the power >>off and on. Knight, seeing what the student was doing spoke sternly: >>"You can not fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no >>understanding of what is going wrong." Knight turned the machine off >>and on. The machine worked. >>------------------------=(www.intop.net/~enigma/)=------------------- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. From cfandt at servtech.com Mon Jun 29 09:30:19 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: In 10+ years... Was: Re: "No name" S-100 computer In-Reply-To: <199806260548.WAA00374@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199806291444.OAA01193@cyber2.servtech.com> At 22:48 25-06-98 -0700, dave dameron wrote: >Hello All, >I have been working on a "no name" S-100 computer for some time, and finally >have gotten it to work! No name = >Godbout 12 slot motherboard. Cards: >Ithica Audio Z-80 card -- snip list of boards, s/w and impressive list of work that had gone into getting the machine up -- > >In 10 or ? years, how will I pass it along "to the next generation"? I don't >think any public museum would want a "no name" box, and from the museum threads, >doesn't sound like a good idea, anyway. I know no one personally that has >these "old" computer interests except maybe the speculator type, only this >list. Those with private museums, will you be collecting this stuff in say >20 years, or will you be looking to pass it along? To ??? Keep an eye on this list as I would imagine (and hope) it will be still existing in some sort of form 10+ years from now. (Let's not go into the depths of speculation as to how exactly this list will still exist. Who knows exactly? If it indeed does not, by following it we will see its evolution toward whatever its destiny) During that period anyway, I would think either you would gain collecting relationships with others here and find someone you feel comfortable with selling/passing it to, discover museums who actually are interested in preserving "homebrew" or no-name machines or even find some other worthwhile destination. Incidentally, I think you meant by the statement above, ">... I know no one personally that has >these "old" computer interests except maybe the speculator type, only this >list." that you mean _two_ _separate_ types of groups: speculators and us on this list? ;) As to the rest of us in 20+ years, I can only speak for myself in that I'll want to make sure my collection of radios and classic computers and all associated documents, parts, etc. is distributed to the folks/institutions I want. In the AWA, I've seen may estates have a difficult time getting rid of radio collections, etc. Widows who are not really into their late husband's hobby have been really stuck. I've heard of some really significant artifacts getting trashed and/or given to unrelated organizations who had no idea how to handle the stuff. Those artifacts were lost forever. One widow in New Jersey had to get rid of over _two hundred_ early military, commercial and amateur radio receivers (conservative estimate of 15,000+ pounds [over 6800 kg]). He passed away without warning with no plan. AWA helped auction the estate for her at our National Conference auction. Another collector who was my close friend also died suddenly. Four buildings full of stuff. After _four_ years, our other friends who live close by to his widow are just winding down on selling/auctioning his estate at various radio fleamarkets and events. With that said, I still need to make a written plan myself stating how/where my collection will be distributed. My wife and family will certainly appreciate the help. Where my computer gear goes is still a question. Another radio collector friend who's about 73 years old and has had a stroke already has _everything_ precisely listed as to where his collection goes and who gets what. This is something for all of us to consider who feels strongly about our collections. Who knows, that bus coming down the street may suddenly jump the curb and..... >For old radios I can consider the AWA museum, as assume it will be around >longer than any individual, but they probably don't want a lot of homebrew We hope to have the museum around forever. We're working further to that end as of now with the start of some serious long range planning. We would for sure consider estate donations although we are bursting at the seams and must consider how to handle new donations. If you've been to the museum in Bloomfield, NY, you already may know this Dave. Someday, a new large building somewhere! >stuff. The brand names already "restored" radios are too expensive and rare >for me, anyway. Yeah, those DeForest Spherical Audions, IP501's and Radiola VII's coming out of an old attic are a bit like finding an IBM 360 or suchlike nowadays :-) >Thanks, >Dave > --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From kevan at heydon.org Mon Jun 29 09:53:49 1998 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:55 2005 Subject: A perfect house - my storage problems solved. Message-ID: Hi all, I just have to tell everybody some good news, but anybody with a space problem and of a jealous disposition may want to stop reading now... We have just got to sale agreed on a house that has a 41' x 41' garage at the bottom of the garden. That is about 1600 sqft or 11000 cuft of storage space. The garage has solid floors, cavity walls, a good roof and thus dry and clean inside. If you ever here me talking about space problems again, then you have the right to slap me. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 29 10:14:12 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Will CD-ROM readers exist in 20 years? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980626100322.00ceaaa0@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980629101412.00cf1100@pc> At 07:27 PM 6/26/98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> They'll certainly be available to junk collectors like us, won't >> they, given our seemingly easy access to 9-track tape drives, >> teletypes with paper tape readers, etc.? There are more CD-ROM > >But that's exactly the point. Teletypes, 9 track tape drives, paper tape >readers, etc are easy to repair. Service manuals exist. Spares either >exist or can be made. Like the "what's a classic?" debate, it sounds like we need to invent a definition for the criteria you describe - is it repairable or not? Replacing caps and 74xx chips is easy; replacing anything custom is not. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 29 10:14:54 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big In-Reply-To: References: <19980628005545.7263.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980629101454.00d1a100@pc> At 02:15 AM 6/28/98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > >> computer collection. In 50 years or so, people will write your >> biographies and refer to the Technical Manual as the Tony Book. I guess > >That is 99.9% certain to be false. There's no way I'm going to get well >known. It's clear you have a wealth of knowledge, the willingness to share, and a command of the language - as you said yourself, if you make a mistake with the mains power tomorrow, it's all gone. Write it in ASCII, write it in HTML and let Max figure out how to reformat it fifty years from now. Who knows how the ClassicCmp archives will be regarded in that time... - John From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jun 29 11:32:41 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: EXO Corporation singleboard? In-Reply-To: Don Maslin's message of Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199806291632.JAA23333@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Don Maslin wrote: > There was an EXO CP/M computer way back, but it used 8" drives and I > doubt that your board went with them :) Could be tha same company, > though. Thanks Don. Can you give me a clue about how way back? Not sure what I will find of use but it might be worth checking out to see if I can find any magazine articles, reviews, &c. (Next time I get to where I can get to the magazines, that is!) -Frank McConnell From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 29 12:31:38 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: old AOL disks Message-ID: <19980629173138.9206.qmail@hotmail.com> This isn't quite classic, but classic enough. Does anyone have old AOL disks they could e-mail me? Any version before 3.0 for the PC. BTW, when was AOL 1.0 released? Wasn't AOL PC Link before? A program called QuantumLink came with my Commodore a few years ago, and when I called the tech number to see if they're still around, I was forwarded to AOL. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 29 12:36:40 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: EXO Corporation singleboard? In-Reply-To: <199806291632.JAA23333@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 29 Jun 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > Don Maslin wrote: > > There was an EXO CP/M computer way back, but it used 8" drives and I > > doubt that your board went with them :) Could be tha same company, > > though. > > Thanks Don. Can you give me a clue about how way back? Not sure > what I will find of use but it might be worth checking out to see > if I can find any magazine articles, reviews, &c. (Next time I get > to where I can get to the magazines, that is!) > > -Frank McConnell Mothing documented. Frank, but I find no evidence of a unit with 5.25" or smaller drives. To me, that would likely put it in the latter '70s or very early '80s. - don From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Jun 29 12:48:42 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: 720K drives on an original PC was Re: Way to iden References: <01bda35d$058db160$3128a2ce@laptop> Message-ID: <3597D37A.4E65B7CF@bbtel.com> PG Manney wrote: > Driver file? What driver file? You mean that's been my problem? > manney@lrbcg.com Driver.Sys that comes with newer versions (3.xx I think) of DOS is what they mean. Check the docs for DOS on this file. It works great but not for a 1.44m floppy unless you get an enhanced controller. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Jun 29 13:17:49 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: old AOL disks References: <19980629173138.9206.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3597DA4D.25319B24@bbtel.com> Max Eskin wrote: > This isn't quite classic, but classic enough. Does anyone have old AOL > disks they could e-mail me? Any version before 3.0 for the PC. BTW, when > was AOL 1.0 released? Wasn't AOL PC Link before? A program called > QuantumLink came with my Commodore a few years ago, and when I called > the tech number to see if they're still around, I was forwarded to AOL. Even if you manage to locate a copy, my understanding is that it may not work with AOL's present interface. You might call their 800 number (on the http://www.aol.com/ page) and talk to their rech support. they may have it on an FTP somewhere. You can recieve attached items now? Last you told me was that you could only recieve text messages. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cfandt at servtech.com Mon Jun 29 13:24:04 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199806291825.SAA06942@cyber2.servtech.com> At 20:35 26-06-98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > >> That could never work for me. I have a 'working' collection - machines >> are often being used for real-world tasks (I don't really have a >> non-classic computer), they're being investigated, hacked, tweaked, >> repaired,etc. So machines rarely stay in the same place for very long. >> >> And while I have shelf after shelf of manuals, many of them are open on >> my workbench, near this PC, etc. They're in _use_. > >So, how do you manage? I have about ten machines in daily use, another >ten or so in various "project" stages, and dozens more boxed up. Other >than my decaying neurons, I don't have a good way of knowing if I've lost >something, which periph originally came with which machine, which box >contains which software title, which journal describes the design of which >doodad, etc. > >I'd like to tag each thing with it's own radio transmitter so I can find >it with a homing device :-) Short of that, I figure the barcode idea >might help (yes, I'm really just trying to find a use for these cool laser >scanners and wands I have). How about getting a selection of those stick-on dots that are sold at office supply stores and color-code your items? They are about 1/4" (6mm) diameter, come in a variety of colors, small enough to be discrete yet seeable and are very economical (as in 'cheap'). If they need to be removed, use Zippo lighter fluid or some other product which serves the same purpose. Choose a single color for each machine and affix them to each cabinet, cable set, document binder, removable component, box of parts, etc. where practical. If more machines than number of colors, simply write a single digit or alpha character specific only to that machine/project on each dot in a contrasting color of ink before affixing. This works well for me. But using a bar code scanner, etc. is a neat use of technology and hardware we may already own which will justify use of that lonely VAX 11/780 sitting in the corner . --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From cfandt at servtech.com Mon Jun 29 13:25:12 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) In-Reply-To: References: <199806270152.SAA25491@goodnet.com> Message-ID: <199806291826.SAA06963@cyber2.servtech.com> At 21:06 26-06-98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > >> > might help (yes, I'm really just trying to find a use for these cool laser >> > scanners and wands I have). >> >> Me too! I picked up a couple of the stainless steel round wand type with a >> red laser in the end. They have a 9-pin plug and were evidently intended to >> plug directly into a serial port. But the laser didn't light up when I did >> that; so I figure maybe the software would have to enable/disable a certain >> combination of control lines, if the thing is really powered off the port. >> Do you happen to know any more about how these work? > >There appear to be many different types. I think you can find wands that >plug directly into a PC serial port, but all of mine seem intended to plug >into specific "portable data terminals" (which I also have) from which I >can download the scanned data. There are also several different types of >barcodes, and not all wands/scanners can handle all barcode types. There are also "Wedge" types which may work without too much setup. These connect in the PC keyboard cable 'twixt the kbd and system box. There is the problem though of 'teaching' the wand/scanner which type of code it is supposed to read and interpret. That's where the software, or at least a manual with scanable setup data, may come into need. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Jun 29 13:39:16 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Older software FS Message-ID: <3597DF54.744B5DFB@bbtel.com> I have an unused and unregistered copy, complete, of Zenith Data Systems/Heath Company's "Breakthrough Timeline" which appears to be a timeline creator/project manager. It has the original box, manuals, key template, registration certificate and the original 5.25" 360k floppies (still in the envelope). From scanning the manual it's roughly 1986/87 vintage and should run on most any machine from 8086/8088 up through our present array of hardware. Really good condition visually too, might be good as part of a collection. Need $12 for it which includes mailing in the 48 CONUS states. First come, first serve. Email me direct for info. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Jun 29 13:39:45 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: old AOL disks References: <19980629173138.9206.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3597DF71.F89D9F8E@halcyon.com> Old AOL disks? I haven't had to buy any 3.5-in disks for the last few years because of the constant supply AOL has sent me for reuse as needed (2-3/month)! Dave Max Eskin wrote: > > This isn't quite classic, but classic enough. Does anyone have old AOL > disks they could e-mail me? Any version before 3.0 for the PC. BTW, when > was AOL 1.0 released? Wasn't AOL PC Link before? A program called > QuantumLink came with my Commodore a few years ago, and when I called > the tech number to see if they're still around, I was forwarded to AOL. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 29 15:13:46 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: EXO Corporation singleboard? In-Reply-To: <5660@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806291918.OAA14816@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> From red at bears.org Mon Jun 29 14:24:31 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980625134612.00825c50@netpath.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, John Higginbotham wrote: > The reason for the nubus question: We've got quite a few 10mbps network > cards that were pulled from Mac II machines, and quite a few IIcx and IIci > machines without them. I just wasn't sure about this, since I heard even a > Mac SE and Mac SE/30 couldn't swap cards. The slot in the SE and SE/30 is not Nubus. They're both "Processor Direct Slot" types (PDS) and are machine-specific. Both the IIcx and IIci use Nubus. ok r. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Jun 29 14:24:42 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: I'm slightly nuts -VAX as a webserver? Message-ID: <13367721018.19.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> We're about to see how the NetBSD/vax SCSI-DMA code works... It seems to be OK with SCSI-2 devices. I'm about to acid-test this. Our secondary webserver needs upgrading, namely the Pentium inside still has that old FDIV bug, and the O/S is way out) Anyway, we've got 500 meg of websites on it, and we can't have the server down. So, what other machine around the office has 500meg we can commandeer... Hmm... My MicroVAX has a gig free... Apache is on there... Hmm... You can see where this is headed. The VAX is the only machine with the space available, and NT is still acting funny (And, I'd rather use a VAX and unproven code than NT and known-bad code!) so I get gto give my poor MicroVAX the acid test - Can it play webserver for a day? We shall see. ------- From wanderer at bos.nl Mon Jun 29 16:27:56 1998 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: RL02 ID number button Message-ID: <359806DC.1941@bos.nl> Hello All, Well, I got my old 11/24 back which I did give away a couple of years ago and also found an 11/34 and form another person I can get 2 more RL02's. Are there any PDP users using Xenix, or only Unix (V5/6/7) ? and Oracle V2.3? One of the packs might still have this on it. Does anybody know where to get the number buttons (specifically #2 and #3) for the RL02's, so I can use my extra units as such, or is there another to let the units know that they should not act as unit #0 and/or unit #1? Thanks, Edward P.S. has somebody in Europe an RK05 or RK07 left over :-) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jun 29 14:30:38 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: old AOL disks Message-ID: i have several aol versions starting with 1.5 as ive never seen 1.0 anywhere. i believe quantumlink/pc link basically turned into aol. i *think* applelink was the same or close to it. as of last year, aol 1.5 was still supported and mac aol 2.5 still works, if only for email and file transfers which is what i use it for. david In a message dated 98-06-29 13:33:09 EDT, you write: << This isn't quite classic, but classic enough. Does anyone have old AOL disks they could e-mail me? Any version before 3.0 for the PC. BTW, when was AOL 1.0 released? Wasn't AOL PC Link before? A program called QuantumLink came with my Commodore a few years ago, and when I called the tech number to see if they're still around, I was forwarded to AOL. >> From red at bears.org Mon Jun 29 14:36:28 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <199806260844.BAA20537@squeep.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > Wow! Here's a device I've never heard of. Fringe-classic, I suppose, but > cool enough that I really want one from the sounds of it. It's a pretty cool little frob, yes. > Are they near-impossible to find now? I'd love to run Mac emulation > in a window on my Nitro slab. (40MHz of raw burning black NeXT > power :) I hate you. (: I forget if the Nitro was the NeXT prototype or the aftermarket accelerator made by (I think) Spherical Solutions. The Daydreams show up on rare occasion in comp.sys.next.marketplace. There was one for sale there, actually, just the other day. They sell from $250 to $400. Generally, people snap them up when they see them and don't wait for a better-priced one to come along. The emulation isn't perfect.. because the NeXT uses its DSP for sound reproduction, and the Daydream needs it to talk to the ROMs, you don't get sounds under MacOS. Also, it's not a window-type emulation. The Daydream software is a special kernel image that allows the NeXT to boot into MacOS (7.x -- I'm running 7.5.5). Because the Daydream reports itself as an LC (which are the ROMs it uses), you cannot use 7.6 or newer. I've also found that DiskCopy doesn't seem to work under the Daydream Mac. But other than that, it's very good. I get performance somewhere around that of a Quadra 800 on my non-turbo slab. None of this stuff is 10 years old yet, but it's been abandoned and is otherwise just way too cool. ok r. From red at bears.org Mon Jun 29 14:41:24 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: old AOL disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > i have several aol versions starting with 1.5 as ive never seen 1.0 anywhere. Didn't AOL get its start by being bundled with PC-GEOS? ok r. From dwollmann at my-dejanews.com Mon Jun 29 14:47:48 1998 From: dwollmann at my-dejanews.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for RS/6000 P43 Message-ID: <3597EF64.BBD93D69@my-dejanews.com> Ok, I'm dreaming, but I've got a PPC 223MHz complex here that will fit in an IBM RS/6000 P43 223MHz. If anyone runs into one that's looking for a home, please let me know. That or I'll just unload the board. If I could find a CPU-less box to put this in I'd be happy, otherwise I could have a dual-CPU box. This would make one helluva Linux workstation, no? (yes, PPC Linux runs on it, I checked) David From red at bears.org Mon Jun 29 14:53:12 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac In-Reply-To: <19980628010109.4796.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > It's a user interface. There was a little helper guy, who could be a > puppy, smiley face, etc. Not >10 years yet. The metaphor was of a room. > You would click on a calendar hanging on the wall to get an appointment > book, for example. It was too cutesy for adults to use and too insulting to the kids. It assumed a lobotomized user, had a very slow and clumsy interface, crashed a lot, and flopped horribly in the marketplace. And yes, Bill married the project lead behind Bob. Ugh. ca. 1993 I believe. ok r. From drfcline at netw.com Mon Jun 29 11:49:59 1998 From: drfcline at netw.com (Foster W. Cline, M.D.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Hang her from the wall Message-ID: <000301bda399$7a47ede0$d2ace3cc@foster> Pete: Thanks for bringing this to my attention. What a lack of etiquette!!! I had no idea I had posted in HTML. The information in text follows.\: A piece of computer memorabilia well worth mounting on the wall or giving as a gift is a stack memory card from the UNIVAC computer. It is the LAST time the home of a bit of information could actually be seen - a tiny doughnut on a grid of wires. http://www.netw.com/~drfcline/univac.htm >>Any chance that you could post in plain English (ie ASCII) pine chokes on HTML and there are many others on classiccmp who don't use graphical readers. Thanks ;-) Pete Foster W. Cline, M.D. wrote: > > > >http-equiv=Content-Type>HTML//EN"> > > > >

>
 
> >
 
From bobstek at ix22.ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 29 18:19:09 1998 From: bobstek at ix22.ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: ProcTech CUTS tape & VAX 6000 SCSI interface & DC-600A tapes Message-ID: <199806292021.PAA26554@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> If there are any ProcTech SOL owners out there, I have recently acquired an old CUTS tape from PROTEUS, the Sol User's Program Library. Lots of miscellaneous stuff. If you would like a copy, email your address, or send me some stamps - whatever. A friend is looking for a SCSI card for a a VAX 6000 with VMS drivers. Any good folk out there have one available, or know of a source? Also, I have 3 shrink-wrapped and 5 slightly used DC-600A tapes available to the first person with $5 for shipping. Bob Stek From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jun 29 15:24:15 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: EXO Corporation singleboard? In-Reply-To: "Jeff Kaneko"'s message of Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:13:46 -0600 References: <199806291918.OAA14816@cliff.mis.ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199806292024.NAA00914@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > Their address *used* to be: > > EXO Corporation > 1265 Montecito Avenue > Mountain View, CA 94043 Shucky darn. I had lunch today at the corner of Montecito and Shoreline. Have to check it out on my way home, but I don't hold out much hope, they're not in the phone book. > There's probably a Taco Bell at this address now :^) No, that's about two blocks north, at the corner of Terra Bella and Shoreline. Thanks! -Frank McConnell From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Mon Jun 29 15:28:04 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Message-ID: <199806292028.QAA01811@dgs.cs.unc.edu> On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: ] I am now on AOL and can thus do anything requiring HTTP, FTP, Telnet, or IRC. Of course, AOL does have a nonstandard mail and newsgroups, so I can't use external software for those. >You can recieve attached items now? Last you told me was that you could only >recieve text messages. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jrice at texoma.net Mon Jun 29 15:38:50 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: old AOL disks References: Message-ID: <3597FB5A.3719126E@texoma.net> TandyLink was also absorbed by AOL SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > i have several aol versions starting with 1.5 as ive never seen 1.0 anywhere. > i believe quantumlink/pc link basically turned into aol. i *think* applelink > was the same or close to it. as of last year, aol 1.5 was still supported and > mac aol 2.5 still works, if only for email and file transfers which is what i > use it for. > > david > > In a message dated 98-06-29 13:33:09 EDT, you write: > > << This isn't quite classic, but classic enough. Does anyone have old AOL > disks they could e-mail me? Any version before 3.0 for the PC. BTW, when > was AOL 1.0 released? Wasn't AOL PC Link before? A program called > QuantumLink came with my Commodore a few years ago, and when I called > the tech number to see if they're still around, I was forwarded to AOL. >> From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 29 15:38:31 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Message-ID: <19980629203831.24616.qmail@hotmail.com> And, to bring this thread completley off topic, did they have a son or a daughter? What was he/she named? >And yes, Bill married the project lead behind Bob. Ugh. > >ca. 1993 I believe. > >ok >r. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 29 15:52:21 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: old AOL disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > Didn't AOL get its start by being bundled with PC-GEOS? I don't know about that, but I think the first AOL client was a GEOS program. I've got a copy running on my GRiDPAD 2390 (aka Zoomer) that says (C) 1993, and has no version number. (Don't ask me for a copy. Besides copyright issues, it would require that I figure out which GEOS runtime components are needed). ObCC: punch cards. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 29 15:58:46 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac In-Reply-To: <19980629203831.24616.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > And, to bring this thread completley off topic, did they have a son or a > daughter? What was he/she named? (How about bringing a thread on-topic once in a while?) No, they have spawned no children that I know of. (And, please, no jokes about the deeper meaning of "Microsoft" wrt to Bill's sexual performance, OK?) ObCC: TTY. -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 29 14:55:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Will CD-ROM readers exist in 20 years? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980629101412.00cf1100@pc> from "John Foust" at Jun 29, 98 10:14:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 967 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980629/10605aea/attachment.ksh From poesie at geocities.com Mon Jun 29 16:45:18 1998 From: poesie at geocities.com (Poesie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Quix Daydream (mac rom in next) Message-ID: <35980AEA.50C@geocities.com> found this on comp.sys.next.marketplace. follow up with him if interested. -------------------- >Converts a NeXT machine into a virtual Macintosh (can boot either operating >system). This is the latest version and includes original box, diskettes, >printed manual and ROM box which attaches to the DSP port. Was running >PhotoShop and other Mac software without a hitch. > >$375 + Shipping. > >Please respond to buddyc@ibm.net > >Thanks. > >Buddy Cox From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Jun 29 16:48:36 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Jun 29, 98 03:36:28 pm Message-ID: <199806292148.OAA03731@squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1636 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980629/68dc9174/attachment.ksh From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon Jun 29 17:03:43 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: NeXT cubes or slabs. In-Reply-To: <199806292148.OAA03731@squeep.com> Message-ID: I'm told I'm about to recieve a Next cube. I don't know much about these beasts. If I get the hardware but no manuals, boot disks, or software are these items hard to come by? Will a Next cube only work with a Next monitor (haven't heard anything about a monitor coming with this)? Thanks, George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Jun 29 17:08:09 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Zuses (Was: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Message-ID: <19980629220809.6153.qmail@hotmail.com> I didn't think they were jokes (;) and he did have a child, I just don't remember what gender. But to bring this thread on topic, could someone tell me what the Zuse computers did, and what Zuse models there were. How big were they? Has anyone seen one? Do any exist now? >(How about bringing a thread on-topic once in a while?) No, they have >spawned no children that I know of. (And, please, no jokes about the >deeper meaning of "Microsoft" wrt to Bill's sexual performance, OK?) > >ObCC: TTY. > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Jun 29 17:22:09 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Zuses (Was: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac References: <19980629220809.6153.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35981391.3970A0DF@bbtel.com> I might be picky here but isn't it spelled "Zeus" for the ancient mythological god? Max Eskin wrote: > I didn't think they were jokes (;) and he did have a child, I just don't > remember what gender. But to bring this thread on topic, could someone > tell me what the Zuse computers did, and what Zuse models there were. > How big were they? Has anyone seen one? Do any exist now? > >(How about bringing a thread on-topic once in a while?) No, they have > >spawned no children that I know of. (And, please, no jokes about the > >deeper meaning of "Microsoft" wrt to Bill's sexual performance, OK?) > > > >ObCC: TTY. > > > >-- Doug > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ecloud at goodnet.com Mon Jun 29 17:26:56 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. In-Reply-To: <00fc01bda199$3a729d20$676fbcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Jun 27, 98 09:59:55 am Message-ID: <199806292226.PAA10041@goodnet.com> > Trust me, I've been looking all over for a Linux port to a otherwise CE There is a Linux port for the latest Psion palmtop; not CE, but that's a GOOD thing. :-) -- From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Jun 29 17:35:59 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: 386 w/UNIX jumper?? Message-ID: <359816CF.13242C62@bbtel.com> I have gotten hold of 5 working (and very attractive as well durable) Intel model PSYP3022254DOX machines with 386DX-25 processors and two case fans in each, one behind the front plate (to cool cards I guess) and the other in the normal AT style power supply. As usual, no docs. This is not a problem as most is self explanatory. There is one jumper on the mainboard though that goes in either 1-2 or 2-3 that's marked "Unix", nothing else. Anyone have any idea what this would do? I've moved it but nothing,but I haven't loaded Unix on it either. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tomowad at earthlink.net Mon Jun 29 17:40:44 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: old AOL disks Message-ID: <199806292240.PAA29594@denmark.it.earthlink.net> >Any version before 3.0 for the PC. BTW, when >was AOL 1.0 released? Wasn't AOL PC Link before? A program called >QuantumLink came with my Commodore a few years ago, and when I called >the tech number to see if they're still around, I was forwarded to AOL. AOL was the company created by the combination of Applelink and some Commodore BBS, most likely the QuantumLink you mentioned. Steve Case was CEO of the Commodore BBS and became CEO of AOL. For quite some time, about half of AOL's subscribers were Apple II and Mac users. Of course, AOL discontinued Apple II support quite some time ago (I know some guys who are still sour about this). I better stop typing now, otherwise I'll get off on a rant about how AOL is always dropping services on the sly and backstabbing their customers. Tom Owad (former user of America Online, now Sysop of Caesarville Online) -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 29 17:53:54 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: 386 w/UNIX jumper?? In-Reply-To: <359816CF.13242C62@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > As usual, no docs. This is not a problem as most is self explanatory. > There is one jumper on the mainboard though that goes in either 1-2 or > 2-3 that's marked "Unix", nothing else. Anyone have any idea what this > would do? I've moved it but nothing,but I haven't loaded Unix on it > either. For years, while Microsoft sat on their real-mode butts, Unix was the only thing that would take advantage of 32-bit protected mode on the 386. So, most PC manufacturers didn't even bother to test their designs in a 32-bit environment. When somebody tried to run a 32-bit Unix on these boxes, there was a fair chance it didn't work (either due to a buggy rev of the 386, or to some braindead address masking done on the mobo). So, I suspect that the jumper disables some 86/286-style address masking to enable full 32-bitness (for which Unix was the only known user at the time). If I wasn't out of space, I'd want one of those boxes just for that interesting anachronism. -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 29 17:56:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: RL02 ID number button In-Reply-To: <359806DC.1941@bos.nl> from "wanderer" at Jun 29, 98 09:27:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1419 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980629/e0fe08cc/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Jun 29 18:33:51 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: 386 w/UNIX jumper?? References: Message-ID: <3598245F.D3665D17@bbtel.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > As usual, no docs. This is not a problem as most is self explanatory. > > There is one jumper on the mainboard though that goes in either 1-2 or > > 2-3 that's marked "Unix", nothing else. Anyone have any idea what this > > would do? I've moved it but nothing,but I haven't loaded Unix on it > > either. > > For years, while Microsoft sat on their real-mode butts, Unix was the only > thing that would take advantage of 32-bit protected mode on the 386. So, > most PC manufacturers didn't even bother to test their designs in a 32-bit > environment. When somebody tried to run a 32-bit Unix on these boxes, > there was a fair chance it didn't work (either due to a buggy rev of the > 386, or to some braindead address masking done on the mobo). So, I > suspect that the jumper disables some 86/286-style address masking to > enable full 32-bitness (for which Unix was the only known user at the > time). I tried a few things and what you say makes sense. > If I wasn't out of space, I'd want one of those boxes just for that > interesting anachronism. Well let me know if you ever feel like it. I may have one still but beforewarned that these puppies are heavy with the 170 mb ESDI drives and heavy steel cases. Thanks for the info. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Mon Jun 29 18:33:49 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Sun's new market: Obsolete Computers Message-ID: SOURCE: THE SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST via First! by NewsEdge Corp. DATE: June 27, 1998 INDEX: [10] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST via NewsEdge Corporation : So much has been said about Java that it probably is lost on most people. Many hear the word Java and recollect pre-conceptions about the subject, be they positive or negative. Most are unaware that developments are taking place. One of the most recent events, excluding disputes between the likes of Sun, Microsoft and Hewlett-Packard over the future of the Java environment, is the emergence of Java-based thin clients. Sun began it all by offering the JavaStation network computer that runs the JavaOS system, an entirely Java-based operating system designed for NCs. Now, Sun is working on JavaOS for DOS PCs, making allowing obsolete PCs to become the equivalent of a JavaStation. The JavaPC software is in beta development, with a preview available from Sun's Java developer's Web site at http:// developer.javasoft.com The final release is expected to sell for about US$100, and it is clear how this product offers a way to use hardware once thought obsolete. It is possible to take a 486-based computer with 8 MB or 16 MB of memory that runs DOS and turn it into a full-featured network computer with a Web browser with full network connectivity. The JavaPC environment runs on top of DOS, which provides such basics such as access to the hard disk and floppy disk, plus the display and basic network drivers. The rest, including all the more complicated network support and the Java implementation, is provided by the JavaPC software which implements the functionality of the JavaOS found on the JavaStation series of NCs. Of course, to run a JavaPC system means being connected to a network since the whole concept of the JavaPC and Java-based NCs is to access Java-based content including Web pages and applications on servers elsewhere on the network - either on the Internet or an intranet. Also, since the JavaPC is designed to run on an Ethernet network and not a dial-up modem, it is aimed at the corporate environment where can provide applications written in Java to be used on the Java-based NCs. In my tests, the hardest part of configuration had nothing to do with the JavaPC software itself but rather with configuring DOS with my network card. JavaPC can work with the NDIS or ODI drivers shipped with many network cards, but I opted to use a free set of network card drivers known as packet drivers which can be downloaded from the Internet and are included with the JavaPC software. After several attempts to get the packet drivers to work with my card, I switched to a different card and things worked without difficulty. Once the network card was configured, I was able to configure the rest of the software quite easily, using an added utility that allowed me to answer a series of questions and have my configuration files built for me. Once done, it is possible to browse the Web immediately, using the built- in Web browser and run some small Java programs installed on my test network's server. One benefit of the JavaPC over dedicated NC hardware is that it allows organisations to continue to use existing DOS and even Windows 3.1 applications and systems. Also, Java-based network capabilities can be added without disrupting existing work. This lets you gradually move mission-critical applications to a Java-based client-server environment. However, the PCs need a minimum 486, 66 MHz PC with at least 8 MB of RAM. A low-end to mid-range Pentium is preferable and 16 MB of RAM is better. Of course, an entry level PC these day is quite inexpensive and would provide more than adequate power for running a JavaPC system. Full information about the JavaPC as well as other Sun Java products is available at Sun's Java Web site at http://www.javasoft.com/ Copyright(C) 1998 THE SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST <> From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Jun 29 18:36:03 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: UNIX jumper contd Message-ID: <359824E2.9E3A169B@bbtel.com> by the way Doug's info seems more than correct since I remembered that it also has a 32 bit I/O on and off setting in the cmos and it has two (of the eight) 32 bit ISA card slots. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon Jun 29 18:49:00 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: UNIX jumper contd In-Reply-To: <359824E2.9E3A169B@bbtel.com> Message-ID: Those two slots were for memory. I use to use these for Unix back when Intel was offering the Opennet product. Wow... A whopping 16 MByte of RAM! Do these systems have the 80387 co-processor installed? How about the Weiteck? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > by the way Doug's info seems more than correct since I remembered that > it also has a 32 bit I/O on and off setting in the cmos and it has two > (of the eight) 32 bit ISA card slots. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Jun 29 18:52:25 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: UNIX jumper contd References: Message-ID: <359828B8.4398FF25@bbtel.com> George Rachor wrote: > Those two slots were for memory. I use to use these for Unix back when > Intel was offering the Opennet product. Wow... A whopping 16 MByte of > RAM! I had a generic 386 MB with a slot like that some years back and yes it did seem like the top of the workd with 16mb. > Do these systems have the 80387 co-processor installed? How about the > Weiteck? These are complete, with the Intel 80387-25 mat coprocessor and up to 8 30 pin SIMMS, which are populated differently on each. My 17 yr old nearly had a hernia lifting these into the truck. Very well made and very smooth running machines though. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Mon Jun 29 15:01:58 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: UNIX jumper contd In-Reply-To: <359828B8.4398FF25@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <199806292341.TAA20406@commercial.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:52:25 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Russ Blakeman > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: UNIX jumper contd > George Rachor wrote: > > > Those two slots were for memory. I use to use these for Unix back when > > Intel was offering the Opennet product. Wow... A whopping 16 MByte of > > RAM! Funny, I have a 8mb intel card for intel's 386 motherboard. Oh well, I missed the boat because I didn't grab the motherboard because those boards didn't have bios eprom at a junkyard. :( If I did, I would be begging Russ to copy those bios data! :) Jason D. (NOTE: reply by jpero@cgo.wave.ca or jpero@cgocable.net) Due to my pmail program it assembled wrong email and there's no way to tell it to use right address! This was caused by other external problems that I had to resolve thanks to my stupid ISP messing with email servers.) > > I had a generic 386 MB with a slot like that some years back and yes it did > seem like the top of the workd with 16mb. > > > Do these systems have the 80387 co-processor installed? How about the > > Weiteck? > > These are complete, with the Intel 80387-25 mat coprocessor and up to 8 30 > pin SIMMS, which are populated differently on each. My 17 yr old nearly had > a hernia lifting these into the truck. Very well made and very smooth > running machines though. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 29 18:44:45 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: RL02 ID number button In-Reply-To: wanderer "RL02 ID number button" (Jun 29, 21:27) References: <359806DC.1941@bos.nl> Message-ID: <9806300044.ZM19116@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 29, 21:27, wanderer wrote: > Does anybody know where to get the number buttons (specifically #2 > and #3) for the RL02's, so I can use my extra units as such, or is > there another to let the units know that they should not act as unit > #0 and/or unit #1? The switches are made by Honeywell, and you can still get part of the range from Farnell and others, but not -- AFAIK -- the covers. I discovered that juciciously placed matchsticks would do the trick, but after a while I got so fed up that I made my own buttons from scrap perspex. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 29 18:36:58 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Hang her from the wall In-Reply-To: "Foster W. Cline, M.D." "Hang her from the wall" (Jun 29, 9:49) References: <000301bda399$7a47ede0$d2ace3cc@foster> Message-ID: <9806300036.ZM19112@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Hi, Foster. > Thanks for bringing this to my attention. What a lack of etiquette!!! No big problem, if someone doesn't tell you, how can you know? > I had no idea I had posted in HTML. All too easy to get the Micro$oft defaults set that way :-) You're not the first, and surely won't be the last. Nice to see you've fixed, too. Unfortunately, some people (eg some Microsoft wallahs) think it's neat to use HTML. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jun 29 19:09:28 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > > It's a user interface. There was a little helper guy, who could be a > > puppy, smiley face, etc. Not >10 years yet. The metaphor was of a room. > > You would click on a calendar hanging on the wall to get an appointment > > book, for example. > > It was too cutesy for adults to use and too insulting to the kids. It > assumed a lobotomized user, had a very slow and clumsy interface, crashed > a lot, and flopped horribly in the marketplace. Gee, except for the last part (ironically) you just described Windows 95. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jun 29 19:12:44 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was In-Reply-To: <199806292028.QAA01811@dgs.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > ] 11/23 was called a micro by it's vendor DEC! What could be more official > ] than that. Also the LSI-11 (KD-11). > > Ah, but according to DEC, it's not even a computer, it's a > Progammable Data Processor, right? :-) Nope! PROGRAMMED Data Processor ;) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jun 29 19:15:17 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: old AOL disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > > > Didn't AOL get its start by being bundled with PC-GEOS? As far as I know, AOL used to be called AppleLink, which was an Apple online service. At least that's how I remember it. My friend was subscribed to AppleLink for the longest time and then one day in around 1992 or thereabouts he complained that it changed to some lame service called America Online. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jun 29 19:24:05 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: old AOL disks In-Reply-To: <199806292240.PAA29594@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: > AOL was the company created by the combination of Applelink and some > Commodore BBS, most likely the QuantumLink you mentioned. Steve Case was ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ = QuantumLink. Doug Coward worked for them way back when. > I better stop typing now, otherwise I'll get off on a rant about how AOL > is always dropping services on the sly and backstabbing their customers. Hmmm, sounds like Apple. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98] From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Mon Jun 29 17:29:35 1998 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: RL02 ID number button In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:27:56 -0000." <359806DC.1941@bos.nl> Message-ID: <199806292229.RAA19744@mathcs.rhodes.edu.> In message <359806DC.1941@bos.nl>, wanderer@bos.nl writes: >Well, I got my old 11/24 back which I did give away a couple of years >ago and also found an 11/34 and form another person I can get 2 more >RL02's. I'm jealous. I've only got a few LSI-11s, and 03s at that. >Does anybody know where to get the number buttons (specifically #2 >and #3) for the RL02's, so I can use my extra units as such, or is >there another to let the units know that they should not act as unit >#0 and/or unit #1? I don't know where to get extras, but quite a few years agot I bought an RL01, but they shipped two #1 plugs instead of including a #0. After either finding something that told me the codes or making a good guess (it's been about 10 years and I don't remember) I found that I could create a #0 from a #1 by filing off the right spot on one of the prongs. Of course, then I filed off the number and applied one from a label maker. Looks pretty goo actually. Unfortunately, I don't remember off hand if you can create a #2 or #3 from a #0 or #1. If you can't find another solution and nobody remembers off-hand, I'll try to look it up for you. I just decided it'd be better to go ahead and look. However, I found it's not in my paper docs. If no one else knows, I'll see if I can dig up my microfilm reader and look it up on the microfilm I've got. Brian L. Stuart From ecloud at goodnet.com Mon Jun 29 20:09:06 1998 From: ecloud at goodnet.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:56 2005 Subject: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980627074940.006b84c8@netpath.net> from "John Higginbotham" at Jun 27, 98 07:50:20 am Message-ID: <199806300109.SAA17196@goodnet.com> > I've got two Digital RZ23 3.5" SCSI drives I'd like to find some more info > on. I basically need the specs (cylinder, head, size, etc.) and jumper > settings. Anyone got anything? > > I think the original manufacturer was Conner. It also has the model number > 3100D, which I think is a Conner drive. And Conner was recently bought by Seagate, which has a pretty informative web site. Try looking it up there. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@goodnet.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge on the web: http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * OO * Java * packet radio * artificial intelligence * TCP/IP packet * From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 29 20:07:20 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: old AOL disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980629200720.00d08220@pc> At 05:15 PM 6/29/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: >> >> > Didn't AOL get its start by being bundled with PC-GEOS? > >As far as I know, AOL used to be called AppleLink, which was an Apple >online service. I don't remember if it mutated into AOL, but there once was a service called QuantumLink that sold branded network services such as AppleLink and AmigaLink and probably a few more "Links". - John From rax at warbaby.com Mon Jun 29 21:26:12 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Zuses (Was: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac In-Reply-To: <35981391.3970A0DF@bbtel.com> References: <19980629220809.6153.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >I might be picky here but isn't it spelled "Zeus" for the ancient >mythological god? > Nope. Named for its inventor, Konrad Zuse. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Jun 29 20:23:04 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Zuses (Was: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac References: <19980629220809.6153.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35983DF8.3946D41@bbtel.com> Rax wrote: > >I might be picky here but isn't it spelled "Zeus" for the ancient > >mythological god? > > > Nope. Named for its inventor, Konrad Zuse. I thought is might be a variant or a name that was similar. I have to say it's one I've never heard of. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 29 20:31:25 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Zuses (Was: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac References: <19980629220809.6153.qmail@hotmail.com> <35981391.3970A0DF@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <35983FED.8B8824E4@rain.org> Konrad Zuse wrote a paper entitled "The Outline of a Computer Divelopment from Mechanics to Electronics" that was published in 1962 (according to the information I have.) As to the models, he writes about the development from 1934 to 1945 "In Germany, a series of machines was developed by the author, which were named Z1, Z2, Z3 and Z4, as well as two special models." Further on he writes "The first program-controlled computer which worked as a complete entity was the German machine Z3 (1941). In the U.S.A. the first computer was the Harvard Mark I, put to use in 1944." The book has some construction details for the machines as well as pictures of the construction of the Z1, the Z4, the Z5 relay computer, and the Z11 relay computer. This information comes from "The Origins of Digital Computers." Russ Blakeman wrote: > > I might be picky here but isn't it spelled "Zeus" for the ancient > mythological god? > > Max Eskin wrote: > > > remember what gender. But to bring this thread on topic, could > someone > > tell me what the Zuse computers did, and what Zuse models there > were. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jun 29 20:47:50 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: old AOL disks Message-ID: <9e1bae62.359843c7@aol.com> In a message dated 98-06-29 16:54:35 EDT, doug yowza put forth: << I don't know about that, but I think the first AOL client was a GEOS program. I've got a copy running on my GRiDPAD 2390 (aka Zoomer) that says (C) 1993, and has no version number. (Don't ask me for a copy. Besides copyright issues, it would require that I figure out which GEOS runtime components are needed). >> well, aol 1.5 was based on the geos runtime kernel, but didnt require geos. david From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jun 29 20:55:32 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: mitsubishi laptop problems Message-ID: <7ee4dc66.35984595@aol.com> a friend essentially gave me a mitsubishi MP286L which is a 286 laptop. it has a phoenix bios, but is posting with a bios checksum error. it will boot off a floppy however. i think i hear a hard drive spin up, but is not being recognized. i cannot remember how to get to the setup utility and aol's browser is unusable to search with. any ideas? david From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jun 29 21:02:38 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Message-ID: <424f18bb.3598473f@aol.com> heh, i remember everyone was decrying the system requirements. 486 and 8 meg recommended. i only had a cursory look at it, and seemed lame from the start by having a cheezy cartoon dog tell you what to do! of course, they've continued that legacy with the paper clip help in ms office. just give me regular F1 help and i'm happy. of course, if i could find a copy, i would keep it along with my other failed collector's items like my pcjr and apple ///. david In a message dated 98-06-29 15:54:46 EDT, you write: [BOB] << It was too cutesy for adults to use and too insulting to the kids. It assumed a lobotomized user, had a very slow and clumsy interface, crashed a lot, and flopped horribly in the marketplace. And yes, Bill married the project lead behind Bob. Ugh. ca. 1993 I believe. ok r. >> From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Jun 29 21:13:13 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: mitsubishi laptop problems References: <7ee4dc66.35984595@aol.com> Message-ID: <359849B8.86711AFD@bbtel.com> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > a friend essentially gave me a mitsubishi MP286L which is a 286 laptop. it has > a phoenix bios, but is posting with a bios checksum error. it will boot off a > floppy however. i think i hear a hard drive spin up, but is not being > recognized. i cannot remember how to get to the setup utility and aol's > browser is unusable to search with. any ideas? Hate to sound like a smartass but your first step would be to dump AOL and get a real ISP. No really you might try Infoseek and they've found the most for anything I've ever searched for. I'm not sure if Mitsubishi would be any help since they are such a diverse company with cars, electronics, computers and all. Also you might try http://www.Windrivers. com / they run leads to most companies and will probably have a link to the correct section of Mitsu. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jun 29 23:23:07 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Phoenix area collectors? Message-ID: I got this request from someone who visited the Vintage Computer Festival web pages. Heads up Phoenix area collectors. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:29:08 -0700 From: Richard Miller Are there any other members/collectors in the Phoenix area? I would enjoy getting together with other collectors. Richard Miller From jfedorko at virtualadmin.com Mon Jun 29 23:26:20 1998 From: jfedorko at virtualadmin.com (jfedorko@virtualadmin.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Price guidelines... (DEC in particular at the moment) Message-ID: Hi folks, I've got a guy with a DECServer 5000 (no Ultrix media, not allot of specifics on memory etc at the moment) with "best offer" pricing. Is there a resource around (besides used gear dealer pages) with perhaps at least "scrap" value of systems? Thanks. From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 29 23:56:22 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: mitsubishi laptop problems In-Reply-To: <7ee4dc66.35984595@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > a friend essentially gave me a mitsubishi MP286L which is a 286 laptop. it has > a phoenix bios, but is posting with a bios checksum error. it will boot off a > floppy however. i think i hear a hard drive spin up, but is not being > recognized. i cannot remember how to get to the setup utility and aol's > browser is unusable to search with. any ideas? > > david > Not sure about laptops, but the Phoenix BIOS desktops often used CTL-ALT-ESC to gain setup. - don From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 30 01:09:16 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Reading PALs References: Message-ID: <3598810C.E014B666@rain.org> Mark wrote: > On a slightly different subject, has anyone written a program to dump > the BIOS > of an old (or new, I guess) PC to disk? Yes. There were a group of programs written (can't recall the name right now) that would dump the bios to disk for both the XT and AT style computers. There were options to dump both the low and high roms as well as continuous dumps, it was very easy to use, and C source was included. From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Jun 30 01:42:22 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: In 10+ years... Was: Re: "No name" S-100 computer Message-ID: <199806300642.XAA26127@germany.it.earthlink.net> At 10:30 AM 6/29/98 -0400, Chris wrote: >Keep an eye on this list as I would imagine (and hope) it will be still >existing in some sort of form 10+ years from now. (Let's not go into the >depths of speculation as to how exactly this list will still exist. Who >knows exactly? If it indeed does not, by following it we will see its >evolution toward whatever its destiny) During that period anyway, I would >think either you would gain collecting relationships with others here and >find someone you feel comfortable with selling/passing it to, discover >museums who actually are interested in preserving "homebrew" or no-name >machines or even find some other worthwhile destination. > >Incidentally, I think you meant by the statement above, >">... I know no one personally that has >>these "old" computer interests except maybe the speculator type, only this >>list." >that you mean _two_ _separate_ types of groups: speculators and us on this >list? ;) > Yes, you are correct, I was referring to 2 groups. I know no one in person on this list yet. This is much less clear for old radios where the dealers or resellers seem to way outnumber the collectors interested in the history or technology or the builders or repairers. Look at the prices now for the first transistor radios.. >>For old radios I can consider the AWA museum.. -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Jun 30 01:42:24 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: ProcTech CUTS tape & VAX 6000 SCSI interface & DC-600A tapes Message-ID: <199806300642.XAA26143@germany.it.earthlink.net> Hi Bob and all, At 04:19 PM 6/29/98 -0700, you wrote: >If there are any ProcTech SOL owners out there, I have recently acquired >an old CUTS tape from PROTEUS, the Sol User's Program Library. Lots of >miscellaneous stuff. If you would like a copy, email your address, or send >me some stamps - whatever. > Yes, I'm interested in the CUTS tape. I've found the article on Newett Awl's "Choo Choo" for the VDM/Sol. Your idea of the CD as a program audio source sounds interesting, too. The email I sent was returned with a warning so far. Please give an estimate for the tape- duplication costs, etc. Is correct? -Dave From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Tue Jun 30 01:45:23 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was In-Reply-To: <199806291108.AA25922@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199806300645.QAA22829@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 07:08 AM 29-06-98 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: > > >11/83 is fast but it's still pdp-11 and VAX-11/780 was 32bit while raw >MIPS the 83 is up there, addressing a 15meg database would clearly >seperate the two. I know which one I'd like to move around too :-) Indeedy the 11-780 could handle some things better. CPU MIPS ain't everything, otherwise my HP320LX would be better than the DECsystem-10 I used to work on. The HP has more memory and a faster CPU, of course it wins out on portability and power consumption but misses out on desirability :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From pcoad at ncal.verio.com Tue Jun 30 01:56:00 1998 From: pcoad at ncal.verio.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: more random bits need new home Message-ID: Due to the volume reduction act of 1998 I need to find homes for a few things which I can't use but others might find useful/interesting: 1.) Box of 8 inch floppies unknown condition: a.) digital software (BA-M386A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN MATH RX2 b.) digital software (BA-M471A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN SORT RX2 c.) digital software (BA-M470A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN COMM RX2 d.) digital software (BA-M469A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN LIST RX2 e.) digital software (BA-M387A-BA) WPS-8/DECMATE V2 BIN BASE RX2 f.) digital software (BA-S968B-MA) ALVTAB0 DECMATE SYSTEM TEST REPLACES: AS-S463A-MA g.) hand labeled intel "SA/FT/FMS Priam Interface, SMD Interface for updated byte/serial PCB's" h.) hand labeled Dysan "Backup of Priam test programs" The box is one of those that can be attached to others of the same type. Manual and labels for box included. Whoo-hoo. 2.) IIT 2C87 "Advanced Math CoProcessor". That's right, this is basicly a 80287 math coprocessor. This particular model is suitable for 10 MHz or slower 286 machines. The box is still shrink-wrapped if that turns you on. Includes free ComputerLand sticker on the side of the box. The box says that this "features a power-down sleep mode. In active mode it consumes 25% less power than other coprocessors." Speed up those 1-2-3 recalculations and floating point intensive tasks! 3.) MS-DOS 4.01 (ACBEL Technologies version). Includes box, 6 5.25" disks, 2 manuals (Microsoft MS-DOS User's Guide $ User's Reference and Microsoft MS-DOS Shell User's Guide). The box and manuals are black and white, but the disks are green. Go figure. 4.) Farallon PhoneNET nubus card. This one has AUI and 10BaseT connectors. It may work, it may not. I have no way to test it. 5.) Apple Ethernet nubus card, I believe. Has AUI connector without the funky slide locking device and a BNC connector. Connect your Mac II to your home network. Untested but big. Make me an offer. Trades of random old/cool/strange/small Sun stuff preferred, cash accepted. I don't expect much for these. Everything is As-is. The first person to make a deal for more than one item will get a free copy of "Inside the Amiga" by John Thomas Berry. Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 30 02:35:41 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive In-Reply-To: Shawn Rutledge "Re: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive" (Jun 29, 18:09) References: <199806300109.SAA17196@goodnet.com> Message-ID: <9806300835.ZM19533@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 29, 18:09, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > Subject: Re: Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive > > I've got two Digital RZ23 3.5" SCSI drives I'd like to find some more info > > on. I basically need the specs (cylinder, head, size, etc.) and jumper > > settings. Anyone got anything? I used these settings in my format.dat file for a Sparcstation: ncyl = 772 ; acyl = 2 ; pcyl = 774 ; nhead = 8 ; nsect = 33 ; rpm =3600 The SCSI ID is set by three jumpers next to one of the large custom chips on the control board. The jumper nearest the edge of the board is ID0, the one nearest the chip is ID2. Jumper fitted = 1, unfitted = 0. I don't have any jumpers on other pins. There are some pins on the front, in a 14-pin connector. I can't remember what they all do except that the pair nearest the centre of the drive are for the LED. This drive doesn't spin up until given a Start Motor command, and the DEC firmware is different to the standard Connor firmware so there is no jumper setting to control this. > > I think the original manufacturer was Conner. It also has the model number > > 3100D, which I think is a Conner drive. It is. > And Conner was recently bought by Seagate, which has a pretty informative > web site. Try looking it up there. The diagrams there, for the "obvious" Connor equivalent, are mostly correct for the RZ23, IIRC. That's where I originally got most of the information, a couple of years ago. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From bobstek at ix6.ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 30 07:54:12 1998 From: bobstek at ix6.ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: ProcTech CUTS tape & VAX 6000 SCSI interface & DC-600A tapes Message-ID: <199806300955.EAA04198@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> If anyone else is having difficulty contacting me, my address is bobstek@ix.netcom.com (Netcom must dynamically assign the @ix??.netcom.com somehow) Bob Stek From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 30 08:00:49 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer) Message-ID: <199806301047.MAA17039@marina.fth.sbs.de> > On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tony Duell wrote: >> I've passed an inventory of my collection to some serious collectors in >> the UK. They know that if I cease to be, they are to find all the >> machines on that list (at least). The problem is that many of the >> machines are partially dismantled, and that it's not obvious that the >> large cardboard box of PCBs downstairs goes with the pile of metal panels >> in the spare bedroom to make an image processor/display. > I'm pretty new to the collecting game, but I'm already having trouble > keeping machines, parts, software, manuals, and releated stuff tractable. > I've picked-up some barcode reading equipment with the idea that one day > I'll encode the contents of all of my boxes, and tie it to all together > with a database that include historical info, condition info, and other > notes. > Has anybody already done something like this? If so, can I steal your > scheme? Yep - I'm just start to build up my database with a bar code system as anchor for machine identification and tracking. The Base equipment is a Apple MessagePad 2000 (best thing ever build by appe - AND, thanks to SJ now a oop classic :) with a laser bar code scanner - all machinedate are stored in a cusom programm. Maybe I could changee to leverage or a similar standard database system. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 30 08:12:26 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintosh Message-ID: <199806301059.MAA18528@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>Apart from the ST, which has already been mentioned : >>BBC Micro, Acorn Archimedes, many older portables (Tandy 100, HP110, HP71 >>and HP75 (almost), EPSON PX4 and PX8), there was a model of the Tandy >>1000 with MS-DOS in ROM, one of the Torch machines had a CP/M a-like in >>ROM, HP IPC, Tandy CoCo + disk controller (maybe this only counts as >>Basic in ROM), and plenty more that I've forgotten about > I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They certainly do boot > quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. Yes, but the boot is quite slow. My MP2k needs something like 40 seconds to boot.. Gruss H. (fyi MPs normaly never boot - only at first power up or reset - they just sleep all the time :) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 30 08:12:26 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintosh Message-ID: <199806301059.MAA18543@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They certainly do boot >> quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. > Later Newts, including the eMate, are flash upgradable. A quick boot > doesn't require a ROM OS, though. Flash upgradable ? Huh ? Did I miss something ? Afaik my MP2K still has ROMS not Flash for the OS. Same for the eMate. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jun 30 06:27:29 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Price guidelines... (DEC in particular at the moment) Message-ID: <199806301127.AA05003@world.std.com> >I've got a guy with a DECServer 5000 (no Ultrix media, not allot of Probably a Decstation 5000, if it runs Ultrix. >specifics on memory etc at the moment) with "best offer" pricing. Is I recently received two in trade for a uVaxIII cpu board and 16mb memory board. >there a resource around (besides used gear dealer pages) with perhaps at >least "scrap" value of systems? I've also seen them offered for anywhere between $25 and $240 depending on specific type (5000/25 vs. 5000/260) and on which newgroup it was offerred. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Jun 30 07:56:24 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Price guidelines... (DEC in particular at the moment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980630055624.00e5f5a0@mail.wa.jps.net> At 00:26 30-06-98 -0400, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >I've got a guy with a DECServer 5000 (no Ultrix media, not allot of >specifics on memory etc at the moment) >with "best offer" pricing. Is there a resource around (besides used gear >dealer pages) with perhaps at >least "scrap" value of systems? Don't know if it's any help, but I bought my last DECStation 5000, with a 17" color monitor, for $25.00... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Jun 30 08:01:16 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: MicroVAX III Memory Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980630060116.00e67c50@mail.wa.jps.net> Fellow DEC'ers, I've come across a KA650 (MV-III) CPU board. As near as I can tell from comparing the pinouts of its memory connector vs. the MV-II memory boards I have, it uses specific memory boards of its own. 1). Anyone got any MV-III memory for sale/trade? 2). Failing that, is it at all possible, however messy, to modify MV-II memory to work? Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cfandt at servtech.com Tue Jun 30 08:00:26 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Zuses (Was: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac In-Reply-To: <19980629220809.6153.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199806301301.NAA26724@cyber2.servtech.com> At 15:08 29-06-98 -0700, Max Eskin wrote: >tell me what the Zuse computers did, and what Zuse models there were. >How big were they? Has anyone seen one? Do any exist now? Other messages in this thread mentioned the models made begining in 1934 (Z1). As to seeing one, a few of us have seen the display of Zuse machines at the Deutches Museum in Munich. Hans may be able to fill in more detail as to which model(s) and other notes since my memory is fading from the 1994 visit. Anyway, some examples do exist now. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Jun 30 08:05:39 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (kyrrin@jps.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: FW: Corvus Omninet 16 hard drive In-Reply-To: <35988CEF.7066D98@hayfork.nospam.net> References: <35988CEF.7066D98@hayfork.nospam.net> Message-ID: <3598e23f.1101805973@smtp.wa.jps.net> Found on Usenet. This fellow just wants shipping for what sounds like a neat bit of hardware. Please contact him directly if interested. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:59:59 -0700, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>From: Robert Jackson >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11,alt.sys.pdp11,comp.sys.dec.micro >>Subject: Corvus Omninet 16 >>Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:59:59 -0700 >>Organization: ELI.NET Leased Newsreader Service >>Lines: 30 >>Message-ID: <35988CEF.7066D98@hayfork.nospam.net> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: port-st89.cwo.com >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Trace: news.eli.net 899189639 20997 209.63.55.99 (30 Jun 1998 06:53:59 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: abuse@eli.net >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jun 1998 06:53:59 GMT >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) >>X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!not-for-mail >>Xref: blushng.jps.net vmsnet.pdp-11:256 alt.sys.pdp11:174 comp.sys.dec.micro:194 >> >>Hi, >> >>Sorry if these groups were inappropriate for this post, but they were >>the only groups I saw anything useful about Corvus listed on so thought >>I'd have the best chance for a useful reply here. >> >>That said, I was cleaning out some closets a while back and came across >>a very curious box. It seemed to be an external hard drive of some >>kind, but the only connection on the thing was a 3-pin connector near a >>series of dip switches. Looking around the web and Usenet I've come to >>the conclusion that it's a network-shareable hard drive that would be >>useable in a Corvus Omninet system. >> >>It's dated mid-80's and apparently only a 16 meg drive so I don't >>imagine anyone but a dinosaur collector would be interested in it, but >>it goes against my nature to throw anything remotely neat away! >>(Especially if it may be worth something!) It's probably not worth more >>than the cost of postage to send it to someone, if that, but if you're >>interested in the thing drop me a line and save if from the dump! Or if >>you're not personally interested but want to save me from getting ripped >>off (giving it to someone for something like $2 when it's worth >>something more) definitely drop me a line! >> >>Robert >> >>robertj@hayfork.nospam.net >>rj@tcoe.trinity.nospam.k12.ca.net >> >>remove the appropriate words from the e-mail addresses... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW. From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Tue Jun 30 08:17:52 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Corvus Omninet 16 hard drive Message-ID: >>>That said, I was cleaning out some closets a while back and came across >>>a very curious box. It seemed to be an external hard drive of some >>>kind, but the only connection on the thing was a 3-pin connector near a >>>series of dip switches. Looking around the web and Usenet I've come to >>>the conclusion that it's a network-shareable hard drive that would be >>>useable in a Corvus Omninet system. Hmm, I'd be interested in any info. anyone has on these things. I had the remains of one a while back - someone had grabbed the drive out of it before I got to it but all the controller logic was still there. I seem to remember that it was a useful source of parts - nice solid case and compact toroidal power supply... it's a shame I didn't have the actual drive to go with it and to mess around with. I don't know what would have worked with it, we mainly had Cambridge Ring network gear back then, a few VAX machines, and not a lot else... cheers Jules > From emu at ecubics.com Tue Jun 30 08:39:45 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: MicroVAX III Memory Message-ID: <19980630132646.AAA5248@emusp6> Hi Bruce, ---------- > From: Bruce Lane > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: MicroVAX III Memory > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 7:01 AM > 1). Anyone got any MV-III memory for sale/trade? no, i don't. But if it helps & IIRC, the module name is MS650-AA for 8MByte, and MS650-BA for 16 Mbyte. Maximum are 4 boards, which results in 64 MByte. (wow ...;-)) > > 2). Failing that, is it at all possible, however messy, to modify MV-II > memory to work? don't think so. I would really prefer to buy the 16 mbyte modules. there are not so expensive, and the KA650 is a neat board (was built in mv3500/mv3600) cheers, emanuel From djenner at halcyon.com Tue Jun 30 08:57:42 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: FW: Corvus Omninet 16 hard drive References: <35988CEF.7066D98@hayfork.nospam.net> <3598e23f.1101805973@smtp.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: <3598EED6.22FC313F@halcyon.com> I recently posted the following DEC PDP-11 Q-Bus modules up for grabs. They are apparently Q-Bus controllers for this harddrive or something like it. 2) dual-height board Corvus Systems 1981 LSI-11 Interface P/N 40020019 Rev 02 contains 28-pin external connector 3) dual-height board Corvus Systems 1981 LSI-11 Transporter Omninet P/N 8169 contains 3-pin external connector LED 8-position DIP switch 4) dual-height board (2 each) Corvus Systems 1981 LSI-11 Transporter Omninet P/N 8010-08032 contains 3-pin external connector LED 8-position DIP switch Dave djenner@halcyon.com > >>Sorry if these groups were inappropriate for this post, but they were > >>the only groups I saw anything useful about Corvus listed on so thought > >>I'd have the best chance for a useful reply here. > >> > >>That said, I was cleaning out some closets a while back and came across > >>a very curious box. It seemed to be an external hard drive of some > >>kind, but the only connection on the thing was a 3-pin connector near a > >>series of dip switches. Looking around the web and Usenet I've come to > >>the conclusion that it's a network-shareable hard drive that would be > >>useable in a Corvus Omninet system. From donaldn at interport.net Tue Jun 30 09:24:20 1998 From: donaldn at interport.net (Donald Newman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: 1st Mac Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980630102420.0092b100@pop.interport.net> >Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 07:06:58 -0700 (PDT) >From: escollector@heydon.org >X-Sender: kevan@goliath.heydon.org >Reply-To: collector@heydon.org >To: Donald Newman >Subject: Re: 1st Mac > > >> A friend recently told me that the Macintosh I own (Model M0001 with the >> autographs inside the case) is worth money as a collectable. Can you tell >> me if this is true and if so where I might get information on selling it. >> Thank you for your help. > >Try sending a message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu This is a mailing >list of many collectors and I am sure there will be somebody there who >will be interested. > >Kevan > > > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 30 10:02:14 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: FW: Corvus Omninet 16 hard drive Message-ID: <199806301502.AA23775@world.std.com> >> Now you've gone and done it. I was compelled to dig it out and once >> more face the monster, leaving my more mundane tasks of turning >> my 5150 into an awesome Win 95ers confronter. > Hummm... I always wanted to put an Amiga into a PET case, just to freak > people out, but I've never found an adequately destroyed PET to use. :) I had several years ago a similar idea, and I put a KIM into a PET case (new case from a junk mail order store - Comodore did often sell surplus stuff to junk dealers in Germany). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jun 30 10:08:13 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: 1st Mac Message-ID: <79247bc.3598ff5e@aol.com> One word: rubbish. i have a mac with the same model number. the mac+ had that signed case and i think all earlier models did too. as its been said before, its only worth as much as someone wants to pay for it. david In a message dated 98-06-30 10:28:47 EDT, you write: << >> A friend recently told me that the Macintosh I own (Model M0001 with the >> autographs inside the case) is worth money as a collectable. Can you tell >> me if this is true and if so where I might get information on selling it. >> Thank you for your help. > >> From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 30 12:28:46 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Message-ID: <199806301515.RAA09756@marina.fth.sbs.de> >> I find the touch screen comment unpleasant because I think touch screens >> are the key to an easy-to-use interface. Voice recognition and p.p. are >> in use and are gaining ground. What were bubbles, and why didn't they >> catch on? > Touch screens make you take your hands off the keyboard and leave a greasy > mess on your screen while you try in vain to do high resolution tasks with > your low res finger. The mouse also needs your hand - like any other device. And I'm still looking for a _working_ touchscreen solution to use with my Performa 630. Since I use this youngtimer still for Newton programming, its a real stupid thing to take a moust for an ok-button when I already have a pen in my hand - I just want to tap the Buttons on screen like the one on my Newt. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 30 12:55:07 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Message-ID: <199806301542.RAA11501@marina.fth.sbs.de> >>What exactly is Bob? I've often see it mentioned, but never with any >>background to what it actually does. > It's a user interface. There was a little helper guy, who could be a > puppy, smiley face, etc. Not >10 years yet. The metaphor was of a room. > You would click on a calendar hanging on the wall to get an appointment > book, for example. Nice story beside: Kaufhof (a big department store group in Germany) once delivered a simple dektop program, using the same working room metaphor as Bob, with all their PCs (88/286/386). Junk, but some strange guys at SIEMENS PN (telephone systems) choosed this program as desktop for their new service PC system. They thought this thing would help the _proferssional_technicans_ to deal with that system ... rotfl. Its still in use, but soon after first tests this office thing dissapeared and only some full screen windows with simple text/icon buttons remain ... Almost like the win 3.1 programm manager ... strange huh ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 30 12:55:07 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Olivetti M22 Message-ID: <199806301542.RAA11512@marina.fth.sbs.de> > I picked up an interesting laptop from circa 1986 today, the Olivetti M22. > So, has anybody ever seen one of these things before? There should be plenty of 'em in Europe, (Germany, but especialy in Italy (:), since they sold well among special banking environments. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From franke at sbs.de Tue Jun 30 13:46:42 1998 From: franke at sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Zuses (Was: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM' Message-ID: <199806301633.SAA14216@marina.fth.sbs.de> > I didn't think they were jokes (;) and he did have a child, I just don't > remember what gender. But to bring this thread on topic, could someone > tell me what the Zuse computers did, and what Zuse models there were. > How big were they? Has anyone seen one? Do any exist now? Big ? Hmm. The Z1 could be described as a desktop computer, since Zuse (and his friends) bulid it on his parents kitchen table - but it tool up the whole table. Thru wartime tjhere have been 4 Models - Z1..Z4. After the war I think somewhat like 40 or so designes, and some of them had quite some success. The Zuse company did some very unique computers some of them even part analogue and part digital. They also did the first computer generated graphics not only in science lab, but also sold drawing/cartography equippment. They also had the first plotter running. And sold them. Also some early CNC installations are credited to Zuse (Beside that he in fact designed the first process controlling computer ever - for production of V1 cruise missiles) Eventualy SIEMENS bought Zuse in the 60s. Some exist sill - i.e. a reproduction of the Z1 in the Museum fur Verkehr und Technik in Berlin, or a Z3 in the Deutsches Museum in Munich. I don't know if any of the later (after Z11) 'usual' machines survived. Gruss H. PS.: Zuse also aquired some patents in the 50s for his ideas about the Feldrechenmaschiene (field calculating engine) - early ideas for parallel processing and still base for a lot of newer designs. P.P.S.: Try http://www.histech.rwth-aachen.de/www/quellen/Histcomp/Zuse.html for a nice lifetime/development story. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jun 30 13:04:09 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macin Message-ID: <9805308992.AA899255092@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >> So, where do you draw the line? I draw it at one piece of silicon that >> can stand alone with the usual support chips (ROM, RAM, glue chips). > > I define a microprocessor as either a single chip processor, or as a > small (to be defined ;-)) number of chips which are only ever used > together to make a particular processor. Yes, I agree with that one. Slight grey area here - things like the floating point unit in the LSI11 or the CIS in the KDF-11 - are they part of the microprocessor chipset or are they coprocessors? > Byt that definition, anything built out of TTL, 2900 series, 3000 series, > etc is _not_ a microprocessor. Those chips have uses other than for > building that particular processor. But the F11 (PDP11/23) is - that > chipset only ever gets used to make an 11/23 (or an 11/24 for the pedants > :-)). > > So is the early IBM RISC 6000 processor. I seem to remember that's 8 or 9 > packages, but I would still class it as a micro. > > Other people insist a microprocessor is one chip only. I've got no So I notice. But by that definition _none_ of the micro PDPs were true microprocessors, or at least none up until the 73. The Micro J-11 processor in the 73 was implemented as two chips on a large ceramic carrier. Was this also the case with later J-11s? Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jun 30 13:06:13 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: A perfect house - my storage problems solved. Message-ID: <9805308992.AA899255272@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Hi all, Hi Kevan! > I just have to tell everybody some good news, but anybody with a space > problem and of a jealous disposition may want to stop reading now... > > We have just got to sale agreed on a house that has a 41' x 41' garage at > the bottom of the garden. That is about 1600 sqft or 11000 cuft of storage > space. The garage has solid floors, cavity walls, a good roof and thus dry > and clean inside. Having seen your collection, and the attic in which you have hitherto kept it, all I can say is, You lucky beggar! Philip. From g at kurico.com Tue Jun 30 12:26:15 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > keyboard). The "OS" and "BIOS" are written in Forth and apparently > > there is a way to access the Forth environment. It also saves/loads the > > Really? Cool. If you find out this is indeed true and find out how to > access the OS environment then I'd love to know about it. Some have expressed an interest in what I find out about the Canon Cat so here is some extra info that I've attained. It is possible to access the machines Forth interpreter. You type in a secret code, select it and hit the "answer" key. You can then enter Forth text, select it and press "answer" to execute it. You can also get to the interpreter itself by then pressing another set of keys. It works and is quite cool. If there are any other Cat owners out there, email me and I'll send you the exact instructions. Hey Uncle Roger, I located _the_ Flat Cat (yes, apparently the only one), unfortunately it's not for sale (well, actually I didn't ask, but I assumed that I wouldn't want to pay whatever the asking price would be). Unless of course you dug up that Apple 1 and they might trade you. The machine is also saving and loading state correctly to the floppy drive (remember it doesn't use files, it just saves and loads its entire machine state) so pretty much everything appears to be functional. Next step is to hook up a printer and see if I can get that working. Unfortunately, it's time to start boxing up to begin the move, so it'll have to wait a couple of months. I envy all you non-transient collectors out there. George From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Jun 30 12:35:56 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Zuses (Was: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac References: <199806301301.NAA26724@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: <359921FC.3986E233@bbtel.com> Christian Fandt wrote: > At 15:08 29-06-98 -0700, Max Eskin wrote: > > >tell me what the Zuse computers did, and what Zuse models there were. > >How big were they? Has anyone seen one? Do any exist now? > > Other messages in this thread mentioned the models made begining in 1934 > (Z1). > > As to seeing one, a few of us have seen the display of Zuse machines at the > Deutches Museum in Munich. Hans may be able to fill in more detail as to > which model(s) and other notes since my memory is fading from the 1994 > visit. Anyway, some examples do exist now. Are these the open frame machines that were used on sunmarines and ships during WWII? There's a sort of "computer" in the U505 submarine in the Museum of Science and Industry on the lakefront in Chicago. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 30 13:26:40 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: 1st Mac Message-ID: <19980630182641.29184.qmail@hotmail.com> I would say no more than $10 unless the buyer has no idea what he's getting. >One word: rubbish. i have a mac with the same model number. the mac+ had that >signed case and i think all earlier models did too. as its been said before, >its only worth as much as someone wants to pay for it. > >david > >In a message dated 98-06-30 10:28:47 EDT, you write: > ><< >> A friend recently told me that the Macintosh I own (Model M0001 with the > >> autographs inside the case) is worth money as a collectable. Can you tell > >> me if this is true and if so where I might get information on selling it. > >> Thank you for your help. > > >> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 30 13:33:09 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: Zuses (Was: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM' Message-ID: <19980630183310.13935.qmail@hotmail.com> More questions, then: What did they do? I guess they couldn't have been that powerful if the ENIAC took up a whole building... >Big ? Hmm. The Z1 could be described as a desktop computer, >since Zuse (and his friends) bulid it on his parents kitchen >table - but it tool up the whole table. > >Thru wartime tjhere have been 4 Models - Z1..Z4. >After the war I think somewhat like 40 or so designes, >and some of them had quite some success. The Zuse >company did some very unique computers some of them >even part analogue and part digital. They also did >the first computer generated graphics not only in >science lab, but also sold drawing/cartography equippment. >They also had the first plotter running. And sold >them. Also some early CNC installations are credited >to Zuse (Beside that he in fact designed the first >process controlling computer ever - for production >of V1 cruise missiles) Eventualy SIEMENS bought Zuse >in the 60s. > >Some exist sill - i.e. a reproduction of the Z1 in >the Museum fur Verkehr und Technik in Berlin, or a >Z3 in the Deutsches Museum in Munich. I don't know if >any of the later (after Z11) 'usual' machines survived. > >Gruss >H. > >PS.: Zuse also aquired some patents in the 50s for his >ideas about the Feldrechenmaschiene (field calculating >engine) - early ideas for parallel processing and still >base for a lot of newer designs. > >P.P.S.: Try >http://www.histech.rwth-aachen.de/www/quellen/Histcomp/Zuse.html >for a nice lifetime/development story. > >-- >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Jun 30 13:35:47 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: 1st Mac References: <19980630182641.29184.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35993002.705CD270@bbtel.com> Max Eskin wrote:Aren't the signatures cut into the molds on all or most of these machines? I've seen it alot and never thought differently. > I would say no more than $10 unless the buyer has no idea what he's > getting. > > >One word: rubbish. i have a mac with the same model number. the mac+ > had that > >signed case and i think all earlier models did too. as its been said > before, > >its only worth as much as someone wants to pay for it. > > > >david > > > >In a message dated 98-06-30 10:28:47 EDT, you write: > > > ><< >> A friend recently told me that the Macintosh I own (Model M0001 > with the > > >> autographs inside the case) is worth money as a collectable. Can > you tell > > >> me if this is true and if so where I might get information on > selling it. > > >> Thank you for your help. > > > >> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From g at kurico.com Tue Jun 30 14:51:44 1998 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: 1st Mac In-Reply-To: <35993002.705CD270@bbtel.com> Message-ID: For sure up until the SE-30, I'm not positive about the Classic and ClassicII. Minor trivia, the original Mac Portable also has the designers names stamped in the case. As far as worth, well i've seen them on ebay go anywhere from $75 to over $200 depending on what ancillary stuff it had (orig docs, packaging, etc). That said, they are relatively easily available for <$20 (I just picked up two for $15 just an hour ago). As was stated earlier, an items worth is determined by how much one is willing to pay to acquire it. George > Max Eskin wrote:Aren't the signatures cut into the molds on all or most of > these machines? I've seen it alot and never thought differently. > > > I would say no more than $10 unless the buyer has no idea what he's > > getting. > > > > >One word: rubbish. i have a mac with the same model number. the mac+ > > had that > > >signed case and i think all earlier models did too. as its been said > > before, > > >its only worth as much as someone wants to pay for it. > > > > > >david > > > > > >In a message dated 98-06-30 10:28:47 EDT, you write: > > > > > ><< >> A friend recently told me that the Macintosh I own (Model M0001 > > with the > > > >> autographs inside the case) is worth money as a collectable. Can > > you tell > > > >> me if this is true and if so where I might get information on > > selling it. > > > >> Thank you for your help. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ > Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Jun 30 16:49:46 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: 1st Mac Message-ID: <19980630214946.16190.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, when I read the want ads, I see Mac SE/30s going for $300 easy ("Good first computer", "Good student computer", "Served me well"). Those ads really last from week to week... >As far as worth, well i've seen them on ebay go anywhere from $75 to over $200 >depending on what ancillary stuff it had (orig docs, packaging, etc). That said, >they are relatively easily available for <$20 (I just picked up two for $15 just an >hour ago). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Jun 30 17:07:44 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: 1st Mac References: Message-ID: <359961AF.C07DA7AF@bbtel.com> George Currie wrote: > For sure up until the SE-30, I'm not positive about the Classic and ClassicII. > Minor trivia, the original Mac Portable also has the designers names stamped > in the case. I know the Mac512k does for sure. > As far as worth, well i've seen them on ebay go anywhere from $75 to over $200 > depending on what ancillary stuff it had (orig docs, packaging, etc). That said, > they are relatively easily available for <$20 (I just picked up two for $15 just an > hour ago). > > As was stated earlier, an items worth is determined by how much one is willing > to pay to acquire it. On top of what the seller sees it of value as. If I get an S/36 and don't know what the heck it is, I may only ask $20 for it whereas a buyer that knows what it is may be ready to pay $100 or more (only an analogy, not realistic so don't nail me on this you S/3x people). I had a TRS-80 model 4 that I thought $25 was fair for it and the new owner felt good about it. A week later I had a person from a Massachusetts drug company call to see if I had it and if I'd be willing to let it go for $100....seems they still have something going at their plant that requires this machine and the upgrade to a newer system is in the works but not quite done or on budget, so they're stuck with the model 4. Go figure. > >Aren't the signatures cut into the molds on all or most of > > these machines? I've seen it alot and never thought differently. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Jun 30 17:41:43 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: old AOL disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Before it was known as Applelink it was called "Samuel" and worked with the apple ][ as well. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > > > > > Didn't AOL get its start by being bundled with PC-GEOS? > > As far as I know, AOL used to be called AppleLink, which was an Apple > online service. At least that's how I remember it. My friend was > subscribed to AppleLink for the longest time and then one day in around > 1992 or thereabouts he complained that it changed to some lame service > called America Online. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ever onward. > > September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 06/11/98] > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 30 17:44:38 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macin In-Reply-To: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk "Re[2]: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macin" (Jun 30, 18:04) References: <9805308992.AA899255092@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <9806302344.ZM22006@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Jun 30, 18:04, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > Other people insist a microprocessor is one chip only. > > So I notice. But by that definition _none_ of the micro PDPs were true > microprocessors, or at least none up until the 73. The Micro J-11 > processor in the 73 was implemented as two chips on a large ceramic > carrier. Was this also the case with later J-11s? Yes, it is. But if you allow a J-11 as a microprocessor, you must also allow the F-11 (as in 11/23, 11/24) since it too has the complete CPU on one (40-pin) carrier. The other devices that make up the chipset are truly optional. You'd also need to allow the T-11 processor. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From gene at ehrich.com Tue Jun 30 17:59:07 1998 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: old AOL disks In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980629200720.00d08220@pc> References: Message-ID: <199806302257.PAA06733@mxu1.u.washington.edu> >I don't remember if it mutated into AOL, but there once was a >service called QuantumLink that sold branded network services >such as AppleLink and AmigaLink and probably a few more "Links". > Q-Link or Quantum link came first for the C64 and then was expanded to include the Apple II I still have the original 5-1/4 Q-Link disk. ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com Gene Ehrich P.O. Box 209 Marlton NJ 08053-0209 ------------------------------------------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 30 17:51:39 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: RL02 ID number button In-Reply-To: <199806292229.RAA19744@mathcs.rhodes.edu.> from "Brian L. Stuart" at Jun 29, 98 05:29:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1508 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980630/785729ed/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Tue Jun 30 20:47:10 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > So, how do you classify a machine that has a microprocessor and a > coprocessor that's not a micro in it? It looks like we're starting to revisit the taxonomy question. Surely in a group of pseudoscientists like us, there must be a Cladist in the house. (For the clueless, Cladistics is a formal system of classification used primarily in biological taxonomy.) I'm not sure who coined the term "microprocessor", but the Intel 4004 is widely regarded as the first microprocessor, and it was characterised by having the control logic and ALU on one chip. The packaging shouldn't matter. These others are interesting variations on themes of IC integration, and they deserve a name, but "microprocessor" ain't it! -- Doug From mbg at world.std.com Tue Jun 30 20:51:51 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macin Message-ID: <199807010151.AA28230@world.std.com> Yes, the DCT11 (t-11) is a single chip... it has no memory management (except for a strange implementation on one of the vax line... Venus, I think...) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry@zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg@world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 30 22:15:44 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:57 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macin Message-ID: <199807010315.AA22638@world.std.com> Byt that definition, anything built out of TTL, 2900 series, 3000 serie <> etc is _not_ a microprocessor. Those chips have uses other than for What about the 29116? It falls right on the cusp I'd say. RE: T-11 Contact this person if you might be on the lookout for one. I had one once and it's a CP/M 8 line LCD screen laptop of sorts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bjorn Langoren Cambridge, MA 02140 - Wednesday, July 01, 1998 at 00:03:38 EPSON PX-8 for sale We found an EPSON PX-8 in the basement during a cleanup, and I thought it might be worth something to someone. I have not tried to start it up, since I don't have the power adapter for it. There is also some shrink-wrapped documentation available. Ask me questions and I will take a second look at it. Any idea how many of these were sold back in the mid 80's? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Jun 24 17:18:32 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:34:59 2005 Subject: Museums Message-ID: <199903251112.DAA13114@mxu1.u.washington.edu> --------- > From: Ward D. Griffiths III > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Museums > Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 1:14 > (The FCC stepped in because of complaints > from the close neighbors of folks running TRS-80 Model Ones (or Apple IIs > or Commodore Pets or S-100 boxen) on the other side of an unshielded wall > from a television with rabbit ear antenna in apartment buildings). Our Spectrum Management Agency (or whatever it's called this week) has a less enduser friendly attitude towards dipsticks in fringe areas that think they should be able to watch marginal signals on "rabbit ears" inside a substantial building. It amounts to "Get an outdoor antenna." No outdoor antenna, no valid grounds for complaint. There are no specific regs regarding emf emission from computers, they have put the onus on the RECEIVER manufacturer to ensure adequate filtering & shielding from unwanted signals. The CB fad of the 70's was a direct cause of this, after it was discovered that perfectly functional CB's would drive certain televisions berserk because of stupid choices of IF frequencies (Amongst other "They did WHAT!" type design, um, features.) If you have a properly installed external antenna (Yagi of some kind - cut for the channels you are trying to receive) and proper coax feed into the set, and you are STILL getting interference, only then will they look into it. This attitude has cured enormous numbers of problems. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Jun 30 19:08:24 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:35:00 2005 Subject: Sighted: AT/XT cases & parts for sale Message-ID: <35a17dbe.592819048@hoser> For what it's worth... (I have no connection with this person.) >I have tons of old AT/XT cases, motherboards, cards, hard drives, floppies, >and other stuff! > >Buyer pays shipping. > >Need to get rid of it! > >Byron Smith >byron@pnx.com > >Located in Orange, Texas > -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 29 18:27:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:35:00 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macin In-Reply-To: <9805308992.AA899255092@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jun 30, 98 06:04:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1194 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980701/18c5bb44/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 29 18:41:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:35:00 2005 Subject: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macin In-Reply-To: <9806302344.ZM22006@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 30, 98 10:44:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980701/865ae387/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 29 18:46:15 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:35:00 2005 Subject: 1st Mac In-Reply-To: <359961AF.C07DA7AF@bbtel.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Jun 30, 98 05:07:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1225 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980701/61c7109a/attachment.ksh