From ecloud at bigfoot.com Wed Apr 1 00:27:43 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:03 2005 Subject: Archiving docs References: <3.0.16.19980331100107.29279d9c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3521DE5F.E5AC6D2A@bigfoot.com> > >in JPEG format. I'm trying to save as much information as I can, so JPEG is a bad idea for anything other than photos. It works best with subtle color variations, and tends to make a mess of sharp details. > Actually, 300 is the max without interpolation. Stuff that's truly B&W > should be scanned in B&W mode. The problem is that grayscale picks up > variations in print strength, smudges, etc. B&W says "This dot is more > than x dark, it's black. This dot is less than x dark, it's white." That's good advice; however I think in theory the results are equivalent if you first scan in grayscale, then use Photoshop to convert to B&W with the default threshold. But Photoshop also lets you adjust the threshold when converting to B&W, rather than leave it up to the scanner, and you can tweak it to better compensate for the effects of old yellowed paper. B&W images also compress astonishingly well with GIF, which is lossless and thus preserves sharp details well. The good compression is due to the large amount of white space in typical schematics and drawings. My total output of scanned manuals has so far been two :-); it really is time consuming when you try to touch up the pictures to look really great and fix all the OCR errors and stuff. The manuals I did (which aren't computer related) are at http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud/hamradio.html. I spent way too much time on the pictures, but as an example, at the top of http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud/plboard/ss32.html is a schematic which is 539 x 269 pixels (a nearly ideal width for a typical browser window) and only 5K in size! That's what GIF can do for you if the drawings are clean enough. In the end, unless you have a lot of time to spend, you might be best off getting Acrobat and using their scan-to-pdf feature (which I believe comes with the standard payware product now). Supposedly, it tries to OCR, and spellchecks, but if the OCR algorithm is sufficiently unsure about the identity of a word, it just leaves the scanned bitmap in there instead. You can manually fix those boo-boos later but in the mean time you have something that looks really close to the original document. I haven't tried it, that's just what I have heard. If it's as good as advertised, then PDF has indeed found its niche (I don't believe in it for many other purposes; html is more flexible and much better for use on the Internet whenever you have a digital source to begin with). -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From ecloud at bigfoot.com Wed Apr 1 00:38:44 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:04 2005 Subject: Archiving docs References: <19980330230317.21602ffc.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <3521E0F4.B0905519@bigfoot.com> BTW do any of you know of software that can do a good job converting color screened images (like out of a newspaper or magazine) back to smooth color? I have a theory that it's possible to extract more information than just one pixel per screen dot, but I'm not quite sure. I used a high-end Arcus scanner on a Mac once that did a beautiful job of this, but I don't know whether the scanner or the software was really doing the work, and whether it did something tricky to increase the resolution or just computed the color for the area occupied by each screen dot and then interpolated. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From KFergason at aol.com Wed Apr 1 00:31:59 1998 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:05 2005 Subject: Lobotomies... (was: Re: available bits) Message-ID: <1f79c68e.3521df61@aol.com> In a message dated 3/31/98 11:15:26 PM Central Standard Time, zmerch@northernway.net writes: > If anyone has a lobotomized Tandy MC-10 (Micro Color Computer), it used the > MC6803 for it's brain... It's the only classic machine that I know of that > used this processor as the primary CPU. > PAIA used to sell 6803 boards. (guess it depends on your definition of machine.) Did anyone ever get one of those? I guess they were mostly for music, but I always wanted one. The ads in the magazines always intrigued me. I wonder if they exist today. Kelly (reminiscing) From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 1 00:54:40 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: terminals -update Message-ID: <3521E4B0.18097B8@bbtel.com> Here's an update for any interested parties: HP 700/44's - all three are sold Visual 102 w/keyboard - sold VT220 w/o keyboard - sold VT100 without keyboard - still available, $5 plus the shipping costs via UPS or USPS parcel post. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Apr 1 01:01:02 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Archiving docs In-Reply-To: <3521DE5F.E5AC6D2A@bigfoot.com> References: <3.0.16.19980331100107.29279d9c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980401020102.00a7f430@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Shawn T. Rutledge typed: >JPEG is a bad idea for anything other than photos. It works best with subtle >color variations, and tends to make a mess of sharp details. Righto you are on this count. >> Actually, 300 is the max without interpolation. Stuff that's truly B&W >> should be scanned in B&W mode. The problem is that grayscale picks up >> variations in print strength, smudges, etc. B&W says "This dot is more >> than x dark, it's black. This dot is less than x dark, it's white." > >That's good advice; however I think in theory the results are equivalent if >you first scan in grayscale, then use Photoshop to convert to B&W with the >default threshold. But Photoshop also lets you adjust the threshold when >converting to B&W, rather than leave it up to the scanner, and you can tweak >it to better compensate for the effects of old yellowed paper. Well, Photoshop is *way* too expensive for my blood... I like to use Paint Shop Pro. One thing I do (for a small number of documents) is scan it in with 256color B&W, then use the color exchanger with a threshold of 20 or so, and make all the "near-whites" in the background to white, and all the "near-blacks" to black. I could show this easier than speak it... Why I do this: Reason 1: it makes a better looking scan, and besides, PSP's color reduction algorithms are really great, so reducing the scan to 16 colors comes out top-notch. Reason 2 below. >B&W images also compress astonishingly well with GIF, which is lossless and >thus preserves sharp details well. The good compression is due to the large >amount of white space in typical schematics and drawings. Have you actually checked this? GIF's do compress well, and you are correct on loseless... but if you are just GIFfing the scans, they do *not* compress well. GIFs are just RLE compressed (That's Run Length Encoding for all you non-gfx types out there) and if you don't have large blocks of the exact same color, you'll get very poor compression. That's why I do what I do above... making sure the "near-whites" and "near-blacks" are solid improves the compression 3 or 4 fold, reducing the color depth to 16 helps heaps as well (while still giving you "anti-aliasing" for readability). Oh, and at least with Photoshop 4.0, it's stock JPEG encoding sux rox. Badly. (I was too scared to try the GIF encoding... especially with transparency). PSP is strides ahead on it's format interchangability. Anywho, just my thoughts on the subject. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Owner, MerchWare | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 1 01:08:59 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: LEading Edge Message-ID: <3521E80B.1BCD16E3@bbtel.com> If anyone has need for Leading Edge parts, software, etc you can obtain what you need at http://www.primenet.com/~fwagner/le/leading_edge.html since Leading Edge is out of business and no longer supporting anything. Throw this in your bookmarks for later reference. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Wed Apr 1 02:32:19 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Panasonic HHC In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980401020102.00a7f430@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: OK, it looks suspiciously like a calculator, but it does have a genuine 6502 in it, and the search engines tell me that you guys are the world's leading authorities on this 1981 hand-held computer, so.... Can anybody tell me how I program in SNAP? Was there a developer's kit for this thing? And how about periph's? I've got the printer/cassette adaptor, but the RS232 module and TV adaptor would be cool. For the wanna-be insurance salesmen out there, I'll offer you my two insurance software ROM "capsules" (a $300 value!) as trading fodder :-) -- Doug From pjoules at enterprise.net Wed Apr 1 02:46:34 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: <01bd5d4a$acce3480$104e53c2@MIS2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> >As one facet of this, we might consider what people would do with >their old systems, if they even got the *impression* that their >private information might be read by a new owner. They might >prefer to totally destroy the machine than to take a risk like >that. > I have had an instance of this recently. At work a tape drive attached to a PC and which takes the same size casettes as my Sun386i is about to become redundant. The an accounts clerk in the department concerned has said that I will not be able to have the _drive_ because it has been used for confidential data. The fact that the data is on the _tapes_ seems to reflect on the availability of the drive! Regards Pete From mor at crl.com Wed Apr 1 02:53:21 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: LEading Edge References: <3521E80B.1BCD16E3@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <35220081.1A766CF7@crl.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > If anyone has need for Leading Edge parts, software, etc you can obtain > what you need at http://www.primenet.com/~fwagner/le/leading_edge.html > since Leading Edge is out of business and no longer supporting anything. > Throw this in your bookmarks for later reference. Wow. I was once on a crew that installed over 800 Leading Edge 8088 machines for the Army. All networked, sans hard drives, booting from floppy into Netware 286 servers--mainly just to run Multimate :/ I spent three years supporting that system before moving on. I actually kinda liked those little guys at the time, but I definitely got my fill and have no desire to ever mess with one again. BTW, just last night I got an email from one of the end users at that site, whom I hadn't seen or heard from in about 7 years. "Are you the same GT that used to work on the computers at the Army Base...?" -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From mor at crl.com Wed Apr 1 02:56:14 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Old Data References: <01bd5d4a$acce3480$104e53c2@MIS2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3522012D.2734BBF4@crl.com> Pete Joules wrote: > > >As one facet of this, we might consider what people would do with > >their old systems, if they even got the *impression* that their > >private information might be read by a new owner. They might > >prefer to totally destroy the machine than to take a risk like > >that. > > > I have had an instance of this recently. At work a tape drive attached to a > PC and which takes the same size casettes as my Sun386i is about to become > redundant. The an accounts clerk in the department concerned has said that > I will not be able to have the _drive_ because it has been used for > confidential data. The fact that the data is on the _tapes_ seems to > reflect on the availability of the drive! Hehehe. Sounds a lot like my days at the Army Base ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 1 07:31:48 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: RL02 Positioning Question. In-Reply-To: <199804010154.UAA24190@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <13344325961.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [DIV instruction] There's a DIV instruction, it's standard EIS. Any EIS PDP-11 has it. ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 1 07:34:49 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: ANyone have DHV11 docs? In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A80C35E8@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <13344326510.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [DHV11 manual] Umm, you don't have to send one anymore. I just found a refrence card for it in a pile of junk I just picked up. It was left outside, so most of the stuff on top (IBM PC sales material) was gone, but on the bottom there's a few 3-ring binders with repair material inside, and this was one of them. Thanks anyway! ------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 1 09:56:23 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: RS 102 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980401095623.591f1df0@intellistar.net> I have a chance to buy a box full of Radio Shack model 102 portable computers. None have been tested and there are no power supplies with them. Does anyone know what voltage and polarity the external power connector uses? And if there is any kind of self-test built-in? Can anyone give me an idea of what these are worth? Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 1 09:22:16 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Lobotomies... (was: Re: available bits) Message-ID: <199804011522.AA20552@world.std.com> So happens my XT is a Leading Edge model D. It's a good solid and slow system but it works so well and is small. I got mine from the first owner who bought it new when it first came out. Prints for it would be nice. Hacks (plugins) applied to it over the years: Used the basics disk controller that is on the mother board to run a 720k 3.5" and 360k floppies. Installed a 1.44/2.88 floppy adaptor so I can run 1.44 floppies. Installed 1002 HDC and st251 V20 (to run 8080 software) My Inboard386pc was in that one for a while. The machine is useful for many things as its so basic and clean clone. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 1 09:28:59 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: RS 102 Message-ID: <3a97f25a.35225d3d@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/98 9:57:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: << I have a chance to buy a box full of Radio Shack model 102 portable computers. None have been tested and there are no power supplies with them. Does anyone know what voltage and polarity the external power connector uses? And if there is any kind of self-test built-in? Can anyone give me an idea of what these are worth? >> shoot, i'd love to have another tandy 102! my ac adaptor for my 102 says 6v dc at 400 ma according to the little drawing on the adaptor, the inner part of the plug is negative. outer part is positive. not sure what they're worth, but i bought mine with the accompanying battery operated cassette recorder and owner's manual for $25. would love to find the external floppy for it. david From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Apr 1 11:15:11 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: RS 102 Message-ID: <9803018914.AA891476527@compsci.powertech.co.uk> David wrote: > In a message dated 4/1/98 9:57:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, > rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > > << I have a chance to buy a box full of Radio Shack model 102 portable > computers. None have been tested and there are no power supplies with them. > Does anyone know what voltage and polarity the external power connector > uses? And if there is any kind of self-test built-in? Can anyone give me an > idea of what these are worth? >> > > shoot, i'd love to have another tandy 102! my ac adaptor for my 102 says 6v dc > at 400 ma I'd love to have one at all! Seriously, Joe, if you get a box full, will you be putting some up for sale? > according to the little drawing on the adaptor, the inner part of the plug is > negative. outer part is positive. not sure what they're worth, but i bought That's all I'd need to know. I am quite used to building PSUs on such a spec. Or less. (Actually I'd look inside to see whether it needs to be regulated, but 6V seldom does). > mine with the accompanying battery operated cassette recorder and owner's > manual for $25. would love to find the external floppy for it. The model 100 I've seen for 100 or more UK pounds over here. I don't know what additional features were in the 102; I also don't think I could afford L100. But I'd probably pay $50 US including shipping for a model 102 without power supply. Philip. PS I'm back from Taiwan at last. Taiwan really is the most unhackish place I've been on my travels... But more to the point, I've missed most of the last 3 weeks on Classiccmp, so I may be ignorant of the context on some longer-running threads. Please forgive any silly questions that may arise... From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Apr 1 10:35:57 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Installing VMS from RL02s In-Reply-To: <199804010610.WAA21966@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Mar 31, 98 10:10:40 pm Message-ID: <199804011635.IAA02152@sqcisco.squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980401/a8674901/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Apr 1 10:40:28 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980331215757.3a9f533a@ricochet.net> At 04:39 AM 4/1/98 GMT, you wrote: >>The way I see it, if they want to make sure the data doesn't get out, they >>need to delete files. Some days I can't even think straight... What I meant to convey is that people should take responsibility for their data. If they care, they should do something about it (even if it means calling the neighborhood guru.) However, not doing that doesn't give anyone the right to turn around and use that information... If I don't pull my shades, you don't have the right to make a porno (horror?) movie of it. But, if I care about anyone seeing my fat carcass, I should pull down my shades. I do agree with the idea that we, as collectors, should hold ourselves to a higher standard. If we want folks to continue to pass machines our way, we need to make sure they feel comfortable about doing it. (Just as I wouldn't look up what drugs someone is getting from Long's, or what medical problems someone had when I was working with Aetna Health Plans; I want them to feel comfortable hiring me again in the future.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Apr 1 10:55:51 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Installing VMS from RL02s In-Reply-To: <199804011635.IAA02152@sqcisco.squeep.com> from "Seth J. Morabito" at Apr 1, 98 08:35:57 am Message-ID: <199804011655.IAA03873@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Seth: > Try this command: > > $ BACKUP DLA0:[000000]VMS052.B /SAVE_SET DUA0: /LOG > > The /LOG just gives verbose output, which is sometimes nice and > sometimes not (i.e., if you have a printing console :) I'll try this as soon as I get home! > If this doesn't work, you _may_ need to mount DUA0: /FOREIGN, > like this: > > $ MOUNT/FOREIGN DUA0: In standalone backup the only valid command is "BACKUP". "Mount" is not recognized as a valid command (neither is HELP, if they'd added this then I wouldn't have had to ask on the list!). > What are the exact errors you're getting? Which device is it > complaining about? With a simple backup or backup/image from dla0: to dua0:, it goes for about 1 minute, copying a bunch of stuff, then complains twice (paraphrased) Cannot access dla0:vms052.b;1: device not mounted" and returning to the $ prompt. > HTH, Thanks! I'll let you know, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 1 11:38:01 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Installing VMS from RL02s In-Reply-To: <199804011655.IAA03873@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <13344370781.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [VMS standalone backup] How do you MAKE one of those? I have an RZ23 making increase amounts of nois, and I'd like to back it up... ------- From ecloud at bigfoot.com Wed Apr 1 12:39:25 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Archiving docs References: <3.0.16.19980331100107.29279d9c@ricochet.net> <3.0.3.32.19980401020102.00a7f430@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <352289DD.26A36794@bigfoot.com> > Well, Photoshop is *way* too expensive for my blood... I like to use Paint Well I found a copy of 3.51 on Usenet for $100 a couple years ago and I intend to keep using it as long as possible since 4.0's UI got a bit harder to use. It's just one of the most intuitive, well-coded (actual efficient code, not bloatware; imagine that for a modern Windows app!) apps I've ever seen. Since it's multithreaded, it will also take advantage of multiple processors if you have them. > Shop Pro. One thing I do (for a small number of documents) is scan it in > with 256color B&W, then use the color exchanger with a threshold of 20 or Well grayscale is usually 8-bit, thus what you call "256 color B&W" is really grayscale. Strictly speaking, B&W means just black and just white, no in-betweens. > so, and make all the "near-whites" in the background to white, and all the > "near-blacks" to black. I could show this easier than speak it... This is what I was talking about, in Photoshop terms. > >B&W images also compress astonishingly well with GIF, which is lossless and > >thus preserves sharp details well. The good compression is due to the large > >amount of white space in typical schematics and drawings. > > Have you actually checked this? GIF's do compress well, and you are correct > on loseless... but if you are just GIFfing the scans, they do *not* That is why I said "B&W images" rather than "grayscale images". And further down the email there was an URL at which you can see some of my cleaned-up scans that compressed rather well. > Oh, and at least with Photoshop 4.0, it's stock JPEG encoding sux rox. Hmmm, 3.51's is decent and offers multiple compression levels. > Badly. (I was too scared to try the GIF encoding... especially with It can export transparent gifs. However I've noticed sometimes wierd things happen with the colors, like black and white get reversed, and I'm not sure if it's Photoshop's bug, something wrong with the standard or a browser bug. Anyhow for non-transparent gifs I've never had any problems. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Apr 1 13:23:13 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Installing VMS from RL02s In-Reply-To: <13344370781.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 1, 98 09:38:01 am Message-ID: <199804011923.LAA05959@sqcisco.squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 469 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980401/ecc9d2b4/attachment.ksh From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Apr 1 13:26:35 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:06 2005 Subject: Installing VMS from RL02s In-Reply-To: <199804011655.IAA03873@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Apr 1, 98 08:55:51 am Message-ID: <199804011926.LAA06194@sqcisco.squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 879 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980401/ced1a48c/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 1 13:28:43 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Installing VMS from RL02s In-Reply-To: <199804011923.LAA05959@sqcisco.squeep.com> Message-ID: <13344390935.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Tell us what's IN stabackit.com!] Hang on a second... (This is SOOO cool, I *LOVE* having my machines available online!) ------- From daniel at bony.umtec.com Thu Apr 2 13:38:59 1998 From: daniel at bony.umtec.com (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <199804021938.NAA01375@bony.umtec.com> NetBSD/vax (makoto.umtec.com) (console) login: root Password: Last login: Wed Jan 7 17:31:15 on console Jan 8 14:10:57 makoto login: ROOT LOGIN (root) ON console Jan 8 14:10:57 makoto login: ROOT LOGIN (root) ON console Copyright (c) 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. NetBSD 1.3_ALPHA (GENERIC) #3: Sun Nov 9 18:38:01 PST 1997 Welcome to NetBSD! Terminal type? [unknown] vt100 Don't login as root, use the su command. makoto# telnet minako.umtec.com Trying 198.199.189.71... Connected to minako.umtec.com. Escape character is '^]'.  VAX/VMS 5.5 on node MINAKO DEC MicroVAX 3100 - KA41-D CPU, 36Meg RAM, 760Meg Online Storage This is a private system. Unauthorized use is discouraged. With a blunt object. Username: SYSTEM Password: Welcome to VAX/VMS V5.5 Last interactive login on Saturday, 28-FEB-1998 19:41 Last non-interactive login on Friday, 11-FEB-1994 17:05 $ type SYS$UPDATE:STABACKIT.COM $ ! IDENT X-94 'f$verif y(0) $ ! $ ! $!*************************************************************************** $!* * $!* COPYRIGHT (c) 1987, 1990, 1991 BY * $!* DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION, MAYNARD, MASSACHUSETTS. * $!* ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. * $!* * $!* THIS SOFTWARE IS FURNISHED UNDER A LICENSE AND MAY BE USED AND COPIED * $!* ONLY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS OF SUCH LICENSE AND WITH THE * $!* INCLUSION OF THE ABOVE COPYRIGHT NOTICE. THIS SOFTWARE OR ANY OTHER * $!* COPIES THEREOF MAY NOT BE PROVIDED OR OTHERWISE MADE AVAILABLE TO ANY * $!* OTHER PERSON. NO TITLE TO AND OWNERSHIP OF THE SOFTWARE IS HEREBY * $!* TRANSFERRED. * $!* * $!* THE INFORMATION IN THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE * $!* AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS A COMMITMENT BY DIGITAL EQUIPMENT * $!* CORPORATION. * $!* * $!* DIGITAL ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE USE OR RELIABILITY OF ITS * $!* SOFTWARE ON EQUIPMENT WHICH IS NOT SUPPLIED BY DIGITAL. * $!* * $!* * $!*************************************************************************** $ ! $ !++ $ ! Facility: System management -- Build a standalone kit $ ! $ ! Module: STABACKIT $ ! $ ! Abstract: This command procedure builds the standalone VMS system kit $ ! for BACKUP and BAD. (S/A BAD not supported for V5.0) !*bad* $ ! $ ! Inputs: P1 - Target device $ ! P2 - Target directory, defaults to . If target $ ! device is SYS$SYSDEVICE:, the directory is forced to $ ! and the directory will be given $ ! a SYSCOMMON root which points to common system files $ ! (i.e. points to SYS$TOPSYS for normal systems and to $ ! existing SYSCOMMON for shared system disks). Forced to $ ! for small media. $ ! P3 - Source device and directory, defaults to SYS$SYSROOT: $ ! P4 - Application kit type, one of [BACKUP, BAD] (Forced to $ ! BACKUP for V5.0) !*bad* $ ! P5 - If run from VMSKITBLD, do not INITIALIZE tape or large disk . $ ! This parameter is unsupported, for internal use only. $ ! $ ! Privileges required: SETPRV $ ! Write access to SYS$UPDATE is also required. $ ! $ ! Author: CW Hobbs (complete rewrite of V3 version) $ ! $ ! Created: 28-Oct-1983 $ ! $ ! Modified by: $ ! $ ! X-94 CTK004 Carl Kunkel 01-Oct-1991 $ ! Raise LOCKIDTBL to 127 reflecting the new SYSGEN minimum value. $ ! $ ! X-93 CTK003 Carl Kunkel 23-Sep-1991 $ ! Raise NPAGEVIR for Magetape Boot only. New configurations $ ! potentially can eat significantly into pool. $ ! Keep NPAGEDYN small so small configurations do not break. $ ! $ ! X-92 DDG066 Dean D. GAgne 05-Apr-1991 $ ! The ISL files require a file in the MFD and there is no $ ! mechanism to copy a file to the MFD so this has to be done as a $ ! separate file. The ISL files also have to have a unique name $ ! for each Version of VMS so the Version of VMS will be appended $ ! to the end of the current ISL filenames. $ ! $ ! Also added TZK11 tape support. $ ! $ ! X-91 JSSTU0019 John S. Simakauskas 5-Apr-1991 $ ! Modify mount command for TF85 to use cacheing. $ ! MOUNT /CACHE=TAPE_DATA $ ! $ ! X-90 CTK002 Carl Kunkel 04-Apr-1991 $ ! The RA60 user disk kit would not boot after the TF85 device spec ific support was added. $ ! The RA60 kit failed because the RA60 and TF85 share the same dev ice type code, # 22. $ ! The problem resolution requires: $ ! 1) TF85 code to check both the device type and device class code s. $ ! $ ! X-89 CTK001 Carl Kunkel 25-Feb-1991 $ ! The VAX 11/780 RX0X kit will not build or boot. $ ! The problem resolution requires: $ ! 1) Setting the disk overhead slop value for the RX0X case to the correct size, which is zero. $ ! 2) Clearing the file count size and total size fields in the vol ume switch code. $ ! 3) In the RX01 case force a volume switch before the CPULOA/SYSI NIT/STANDCONF files. $ ! $ ! X-76 MCY005 Mary Yuryan 18-Feb-1991 $ ! Fix Device Symbol table lengths. The "and/or" limit $ ! of 10 was exceeded. $ ! $ ! X-75 MCY004 Mary Yuryan 14-Feb-1991 $ ! Add TZ85, TZ86, TZ87 SCSI tape support. $ ! $ ! X-74 MCY003 Mary Yuryan 5-Feb-1991 $ ! Add TSZ07 & TLZ06 support. $ ! $ ! X-73U12 JSSTU0004 John S. Simakauskas 19-Dec-1990 $ ! Mickey Lane 6-Aug-1990 $ ! Added TF85 support $ ! $ ! X-73U11 KDS Ken Stumpf 5-Jul-1990 $ ! Change text to state 6 floppies are required, not 5. $ ! $ ! X-73U10 EAD0001 Elliott A. Drayton 28-Jun-1990 $ ! Change invalid expression .NEQ. to .NE. near label $ ! STA1$GET_ANOTHER_FILE. $ ! $ ! X-73U9 KAB0041 Karen Barth 27-Jun-1990 $ ! Add the capability to parse a file with a .SYS $ ! extension. $ ! $ ! X-73U8 KGW0207 Keith Walls 18-Jun-1990 16:50 $ ! Raise NPAGEDYN for tape boot (again). $ ! $ ! X-73U7 KAB0040 Karen Barth 6-Jun-1990 $ ! Change device code for TF70 from 18 to 23. Raise $ ! GBLSECTIONS to the new minimum value of 60, to get $ ! rid of informational message. $ ! $ ! X-73U6 JAY0005 John A. Ywoskus 23-Apr-1990 $ ! Print out "it may take as long as 15 minutes to copy $ ! the standalone BACKUP image to the console disk" for $ ! the VAX 9000. $ ! $ ! X-73U5 KAB0039 Karen Barth 19-Apr-1990 $ ! Fix undefined symbol. $ ! $ ! X-73U4 CDO0001 Chuck O'Toole 02-Apr-1990 $ ! Add TF70 tape support. $ ! $ ! X-73U3 JAY0004 John A. Ywoskus 01-Apr-1990 $ ! Raise NPAGEDYN and NPAGEVIR for Aquarius only, as $ ! the potentially large I/O configurations can eat $ ! significantly into pool. $ ! $ ! X-73U2 MCY002 Mary Yuryan 29-Mar-1990 $ ! Add TZK10 (QIC) tape support. $ ! $ ! X-73U1 KAB0038 Karen Barth 21-Feb-1990 $ ! Fix undefined symbol. $ ! $ ! X-73 JAY0003 John A. Ywoskus 13-Jan-1990 $ ! Look for PSEUDOLOA.EXE in SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES for $ ! the DISK_IMAGE kit, not SYS$SYSTEM. $ ! $ ! X-72 MCY001 Mary Yuryan 22-Dec-1989 $ ! Add TLZ04 (RDAT) tape support. $ ! $ ! X-71 JAY0001 John A. Ywoskus 28-Nov-1989 $ ! Minor bugfixes to Aquarius support. $ ! $ ! X-70 KAB0037 Karen Barth 8-Nov-1989 $ ! Merge TU58 fix from V5.3-1. $ ! $ ! X-69 KAB0036 Karen Barth 13-Oct-1989 $ ! Add/merge Aquarius support. $ ! Set PAGFILCNT to new minimum of 4. $ ! $ ! X-68 HH0380 Hai Huang 23-Aug-1989 $ ! Set VECTOR_PROCessing SYSGEN parameter to 0 to disable $ ! vector processing, so the VECTOR_PROCESSING.EXE image $ ! can be omitted from the standlone backup kit. $ ! $ ! X-67 KAB0035 Karen Barth 1-Jun-1989 $ ! Add support for TZ30 with new device code. $ ! $ ! X-66 KAB0034 Karen Barth 12-Apr-1989 $ ! Raise TAPE_NPAGEDYN to 800000, allow PHYSICALPAGES $ ! to be set to the default. $ ! $ ! X-65 KAB0033 Karen Barth 8-Mar-1989 $ ! Fix errors in cleanup code. $ ! $ ! X-64 KAB0032 Karen Barth 21-Feb-1989 $ ! Add P5 for VMS kit building. $ ! $ ! X-63 KAB0031 Karen Barth 17-Feb-1989 $ ! Fix EOVMS.NUL problem. $ ! $ ! X-62 KAB0030 Karen Barth 16-Jan-1989 $ ! Update media_count for RX33. Nullify any previous $ ! definitions of DELETE. $ ! $ ! X-61 KAB0029 Karen Barth 13-Jan-1989 $ ! Fix RX33 kit build. $ ! $ ! X-60 KAB0028 Karen Barth 6-Jan-1989 $ ! Raise NPAGEDYN for tape kit. Fix a bug in the system $ ! kit build. $ ! $ ! X-59 KAB0027 Karen Barth 2-Dec-1988 $ ! Make changes to support new booting rules for small $ ! console kits. This involves keeping CPULOA, $ ! STASYSGEN (alias SYSINIT) and STANDCONF together, $ ! and keeping all the drivers on the following volume. $ ! Make the RX33 a small console kit. $ ! Back out part of X-56. $ ! $ ! X-58 KAB0026 Karen Barth 28-Oct-1988 $ ! Change a .NES. to .EQS., fix up an old area that $ ! didn't have error and control Y handling, fix $ ! some error handling that never worked, re-do an $ ! old workaround for DEALLOCATE, add SYSPRV and $ ! create a symbol for the tape value for NPAGEDYN. $ ! $ ! X-57 KAB0025 Karen Barth 05-Oct-1988 $ ! Major rewrite of V5.0 version. Mainly make it table $ ! driven. Table is STABACKIT-TABLE.DAT. Also make $ ! more of the three kit build procedures into common $ ! code, replace as many GOTO constructs as possible $ ! with IF-THEN and IF-THEN-ELSE blocks. Merge $ ! Mayfair II files into table. Take out some never- $ ! referenced labels and routines. Replace all $ ! F$LOGICAL with F$TRNLNM, get rid of references to $ ! copyif_warnings and copyif, and use ORs and ANDs $ ! to make some of the assignment statements easier $ ! to read. $ ! $ ! X-56 KAB0024 Karen Barth 8-Sept-1988 $ ! Add the parameter SA_APP, and delete the now $ ! unneccessary setting of WSMAX, PHYSICALPAGES, $ ! and all the PQL parameters. $ ! $ ! X-55 MAS Mary A. Sullivan 31-Aug-1988 $ ! Merge the following 5.0-3 change: $ ! $ ! X-50U1 RNG00MF2 Rod Gamache 27-Apr-1988 $ ! Add Mayfair II support. $ ! $ ! X-54 KAB0023 Karen Barth 28-Jun-1988 $ ! Add $DECK and $EOD around SETSIZE to make it diet proof. $ ! $ ! X-53 KAB0022 Karen Barth 7-June-1988 $ ! Increased NPAGEDYN to 300032 for all disk kits. $ ! The previous value was too low to boot Calypso $ ! from a disk. $ ! $ ! X-52 KAB0021 Karen Barth 31-May-1988 $ ! Replace LMF$GROUP_TABLE.EXE with a stub. $ ! $ ! X-51 KAB0020 Karen Barth 17-May-1988 $ ! Set SETTIME for all kits. $ ! Exclude SYSLOA9CC.EXE from the RX33 kit. $ ! $ ! X-50 KAB0019 Karen Barth 20-Apr-1988 $ ! Fix deletion of VAXVMSSYS.PAR on error cleanup. Bug $ ! introduced in SLT0001. $ ! As a workaround for another problem which could, if $ ! the system crashes, cause a standalone backup $ ! VAXVMSSYS.PAR to be on the system disk, set the $ ! default directory to be SYS$MANAGER. This way, $ ! any temporary files that remain after a crash $ ! won't hurt anyone. Introduced same as above. $ ! $ ! X-49 KAB0018 Karen Barth 06-Apr-1988 $ ! Add LPDRIVER to the tape kit. $ ! $ ! X-48 KAB0017 Karen Barth 01-Apr-1988 $ ! Raise NPAGEVIR to 1000000, to allow pool expansion $ ! when booting. The problem that this fixes is that $ ! CI based Calypso's are not given enough pool to $ ! configure all their devices. $ ! $ ! X-47 KAB0016 Karen Barth 31-Mar-1988 $ ! Add LIDRIVER to the tape kit. $ ! $ ! X-46 KAB0015 Karen Barth 24-Feb-1988 $ ! Move LOCKING.EXE to the third system volume on TU58 $ ! kit to make space on second volume. $ ! $ ! X-45 KAB0014 Karen Barth 05-Feb-1988 $ ! Add percent sign to symbol deletion message. $ ! $ ! X-44 KAB0013 Karen Barth 14-Jan-1988 $ ! Adjust switch_volume on TU58 kit. $ ! $ ! X-43 KAB0012 Karen Barth 11-Jan-1988 $ ! Increase NPAGDYN on tape kit. $ ! $ ! X-42 KAB0011 Karen Barth 07-Jan-1988 $ ! Add STANDCONF.EXE to the tape kit to support TK50s on $ ! CI based Calypso/CVAX systems. $ ! $ ! $ ! X-41 KAB0010 Karen Barth 06-Jan-1988 $ ! Fix TK50 kit. Needed an exit, to get around error handling $ ! code for analyze/media in the subroutine SWITCH_VOLUME. $ ! $ ! X-40 RKK0019 Robert K. Kosakowski 05-JAN-1988 13:25 $ ! Fix positioning of SYSLICENSE.EXE so that we could move $ ! LMF$GROUP_TABLE.EXE back to the third volume. I moved $ ! SYSLICENSE from volume four to volume three and positioned $ ! it in front of LMF$GROUP_TABLE. $ ! Added LIDRIVER to the list of line printer drivers loaded. $ ! $ ! X-39 RKK0018 Robert K. Kosakowski 31-DEC-1987 10:25 $ ! Fix the positioning of file LMF$GROUP_TABLE.EXE for the media $ ! RX0x and TU58. Move them from the third volume to the fourth. $ ! $ ! X-38 KAB0009 Karen Barth 22-Dec-1987 $ ! Took out the phy_io workaround running SETSIZE (X-28) $ ! and added PHY_IO to the required set of privileges. $ ! $ ! X-37 KAB0008 Karen Barth 21-Dec-1987 $ ! Set the SYSGEN parameters PQL_MWSDEFAULT, PQL_MWSEXTENT $ ! and PQL_MWSQUOTA to 2048, to match the defaults. $ ! This fixes a problem that causes an ACCVIO when $ ! running S/A BACKUP. $ ! $ ! X-36 KAB0007 Karen Barth 04-Dec-1987 $ ! Add TSV05 support. $ ! Clean up the indentation on the copy commands. $ ! $ ! X-35 KAB0006 Karen Barth 01-Dec-1987 $ ! Removed SYSLOA65W from all kits because a decision $ ! was made not to support it. $ ! $ ! X-34 KAB0005 Karen Barth 17-Nov-1987 $ ! Add LMF$GROUP_TABLE.EXE to all kits. This is $ ! necessary for the kits to boot on systems with LMF. $ ! We intend to replace this with just a stub eventually $ ! because licensing is not needed to run Standalone $ ! Backup and this file is expected to grow quite large. $ ! Add CPULOA.EXE to all kits. This is also necessary for $ ! booting because of licensing. $ ! Add PADRIVER to the tape kit because Calypso needs it. $ ! Adjusted error path and message to reflect the proper $ ! value for POOL_REQ. This was stopping the tape kit $ ! from building with PADRIVER added. $ ! Add SYSLOA9CC to create_index. In the shuffle of $ ! various people changing STABACKIT, this was left $ ! out, which causes a boot failure. $ ! Fix RX33 build. The kit did not fit because Indexf.sys $ ! was too large, so special cased the disk initialization $ ! with the /headers qualifier instead of relying on defaults. $ ! Change the message in the RX50 kit to reflect the $ ! fact that it now requires 4 floppies instead of 3. $ ! $ ! X-33 JAE0001 Jerry Eckert 2-Nov-1987 $ ! Add Polarstar (8PS) processor support: $ ! o SYSLOA8PS and CWDRIVER on big disk kit $ ! o SYSLOA8PS on tape kit $ ! No changes were made to the small disk kitting $ ! procedure because the Polarstar console does not $ ! support devices in this category. $ ! $ ! X-31 KABA004 Karen Barth 28-Oct-1987 $ ! Fix no priv error reporting. A label was mis-named $ ! which caused the error "USGOTO, target of GOTO not $ ! found". $ ! $ ! X-30 KAB0003 Karen Barth 15-Oct-1987 $ ! Fix so TK70 is treated as a tape, not disk $ ! $ ! X-29 SLT0002 Sarah Tappan 29-Sep-1987 $ ! Add ^Y exit support while creating open_index.dat $ ! $ ! X-28 KAB0001 Karen Barth 28-Sep-1987 $ ! Fix SYS$LDR problem when upgrading from V4.x to V5.0. $ ! Add Calypso support. $ ! Exclude TVDRIVER from RX0x kits to create more space. $ ! Fix RA60/small console problem. $ ! Disallow switching to an RX33 diskette in the middle $ ! of building an RX50 kit in an RX33 device. $ ! Add phy_io to BUILD_PSEUDO_VOLUME (workaround for external $ ! bug - insufficient privilege running SETSIZE). $ ! Shuffle SWITCH_VOLUMEs so files fit on TU58s. $ ! $ ! X-27 SLT0001 Sarah Tappan 22-Sep-1987 $ ! Add support to create file OPEN_INDEX.DAT when booting $ ! from a TK50 and copy the file to tape cartridge $ ! following SYSBOOT.EXE. This file is used to avoid opening $ ! the files during the boot process and speeds up tape booting. $ ! $ ! X-26 ELM0007 Eva MacKay 25-AUG-1987 $ ! Add support for TU81 1/2 inch mag tape (treated just $ ! TK50 tape cartridge) $ ! $ ! X-25 ROW0607 Ralph O. Weber 15-AUG-1987 $ ! Add copyright notice, as a comment. $ ! $ ! X-24 KGW00122 Keith G. Walls 23-Jul-1987 17:19 $ ! Add LIDRIVER to all kits (except TK50 kit for now). $ ! $ ! X-? DBM DB Mills 23-Jul-1987 $ ! Misc changes for increasing NPAGEDYN, merging V4.6 $ ! version into V5.0 version, reordering files for V5.0 $ ! EXEC changes. Fix edit history. $ ! $ ! X-23 JTK Jim Klumpp 17-Apr-1987 $ ! Add Mayfair images. $ ! $ ! X-22 HH0270 Hai Huang 15-Apr-1987 $ ! Clear LOAD_SYS_IMAGES SYSGEN parameter to disable $ ! processing of system image data file. $ ! $ ! X-21 HH0268 Hai Huang 3-Apr-1987 $ ! Set SYSGEN MULTIPROCESSING parameter to appropriate $ ! value and put SYSTEM_SYNCHRONIZATION_UNI.EXE on the $ ! standalone system kit. $ ! $ ! X-20 BJT0073 Benjamin J. Thomas III 20-Mar-1987 $ ! Add proper RX33 support. $ ! Add DVDRIVER for VAXstar (remove comments). $ ! Shuffle RX50 floppy switch locations where necessary. $ ! $ ! X-19 HH0262 Hai Huang 19-Mar-1987 $ ! Correctly copy VMS$SYSTEM_IMAGES.DATA (use CopyTC $ ! since this is a binary file). $ ! $ ! X-18 HH0260 Hai Huang 16-Mar-1987 $ ! Add VMS$SYSTEM_IMAGES.DATA. $ ! $ ! X-17 CWH5017 CW Hobbs 24-Feb-1987 $ ! Use PSEUDOLOA instead of VMSD4. $ ! $ ! X-16 BJT0067 Benjamin J. Thomas III 18-Feb-1987 $ ! Add TVDRIVER to large system disk kit $ ! $ ! X-15 CRF001 Chris Franklin 13-Feb-1987 $ ! Remove references to MicroVMS in comments. $ ! $ ! X-14 HH0238 Hai Huang 9-Jan-1987 $ ! Add support for loadable images in a separate directory, $ ! i.e. rather than . $ ! $ ! X-13 KGW00054 Keith G. Walls 8-Dec-1986 03:34 $ ! Make the messages reflect the number (five) of pieces of $ ! media required for TU58 and RX0x kits. $ ! $ ! X-12 KGW00053 Keith G. Walls 8-Dec-1986 03:28 $ ! Fix file-split for TU58 and RX0X kits. $ ! $ ! X-11 KGW00052 Keith G. Walls 7-Dec-1986 04:07 $ ! Generation numbers were out-of-synch because of $ ! concurrent development. $ ! $ ! X-7 KGW00048 Keith G. Walls 6-Nov-1986 00:32 $ ! Change to reflect Version 5's exec-reorg and SMP. $ ! Differences: $ ! (1) The new exec files from the split sys.exe must be $ ! copied to the kit. There is no restriction on the number $ ! of diskettes or files per volume with the following $ ! exceptions: $ ! (a) VAXVMSSYS.PAR must be on the same volume as SYS.EXE. $ ! (b) Any file loaded before SYS.EXE (boot driver, $ ! VMB.EXE, SYSBOOT.EXE) must be on the first volume. $ ! (c) Any optional files must be on the same volume $ ! as the most recently loaded mandatory file. (Not $ ! used (yet) except the special case of VAXVMSSYS.PAR). $ ! (2) SYS.EXE can no longer be split across volumes. $ ! (3) The pseudo-device method of booting is supported only $ ! for tapes. (I.e. no file may be split across volumes.) $ ! (4) Change the way that volumes are changed in this routine $ ! by calling a subroutine to do the volume switch. $ ! (5) Change all symbol assignments to global. $ ! (6) Delete all (inherited) global symbols. $ ! (7) Back-out JJO0022. $ ! Merge concurrent replacements: $ ! $ ! X-6 WCT Ward C. Travis 15-Sep-1986 $ ! Updated to build with new 410 name for VAXstar processor. $ ! $ ! X-5 CWH0005 CW Hobbs 8-Jul-1986 $ ! Support for the VAXstar. $ ! $ ! X-? JJO0022 Jay J. Olson 27-Feb-1986 $ ! Allow RX50 kits to be built in such a way that the $ ! pseudo-disk method of booting (used for TK50s) can $ ! be used. This allows the standalone backup floppy $ ! to be removed (and potentially be replaced by a $ ! floppy containing a saveset) while the backup is in $ ! progress. Also, track the SYSBOOT change which $ ! removes the need for B/20000 when booting from TK50s. $ ! $ ! X-4 CWH0004 CW Hobbs 21-Feb-1986 $ ! Place an incorrect copy of DSDRIVER on the system- $ ! specific root, so that it will not be possible to $ ! boot standalone systems from a shadow set. $ ! $ ! X-3 CWH0003 CW Hobbs 6-Feb-1986 $ ! Add pedestal support $ ! $ ! X-2 CWH0002 CW Hobbs 11-Nov-1985 $ ! Use SET SYMBOL instead of DELETE /SYMBOL. Use some $ ! dummy file for EOVMS.NUL for the TK50 kit. $ ! $ ! X-1 CWH0001 CW Hobbs 30-Oct-1985 $ ! For console kits, make a four volume kit. Add preliminary $ ! Nautilus support to the RX50 kit. Do not ask about a $ ! bad block scan on 750 console TU58s. Give the option $ ! of data checking -- done by hand because the 750 console TU58 $ ! does not reliably handle data checking in the driver, and the $ ! RX0x do not support it at all. (As long as you have to do it $ ! manually, do it for all devices -- even those which do support $ ! driver level data checking.) Remove all MicroVAX tests, the $ ! kitting procedure is driven by media type and presence of $ ! files (CopyIF it exists). $ ! $ ! V04-007 CWH4007 CW Hobbs 20-Sep-1985 $ ! For V4.3, reduce the number of headers so that TU58 $ ! kits will work. $ ! $ ! V04-006 EMB0158 Ellen M. Batbouta 07-Aug-1985 $ ! Modify this command procedure to build an RX50 kit which $ ! supports both 8200 and MicroVAX systems. $ ! $ ! V04-005 DGB0121 Donald G. Blair 31-May-1985 $ ! Omit VMB.EXE from MicroVMS standalone backup kits. $ ! $ ! V04-004 EMB0130 Ellen M. Batbouta 11-Mar-1985 $ ! Add Scorpio support. $ ! $ ! V04-003 JJO0004 Jay Olson 27-Feb-1985 $ ! Add TK50 support and provide hooks for other devices $ ! which will use the same pseudo-disk scheme. $ ! $ ! V04-002 BJT0003 B Thomas 12-Feb-1985 $ ! Add MicroVAX II support. This requires reworking the $ ! RX50 distribution scheme such that two floppies are used $ ! for the system. Remove old 1 floppy code. $ ! $ ! V04-001 CWH4001 CW Hobbs 16-Jan-1985 $ ! Make sure that the MEDIA_NAME symbol is set in a common path, $ ! so that it is always valid. Change determination of console $ ! device so that large console devices (e.g. the RL02 on the $ ! VAX8600) are properly dismounted and remounted. Consistently $ ! use international directory delimiters "<" and ">" in all $ ! directory strings. If the target disk is currently mounted $ ! /NOWRITE, double-check to verify that the user really wants $ ! to write to the disk. $ ! $ !-- $ ! $ ! Delete all global symbols inherited by the procedure. Tell the user $ ! we did this. $ ! $ DELETE == "" $ DELETE /SYMBOL /GLOBAL /ALL $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "%STABACKIT-I-SYMDEL, all global symbols deleted" $ STA0$START_TIME == F$CVTIME (,"ABSOLUTE") $ ! $ ! Set up a few symbols for later. It is simpler to preset many flags $ ! in this section than it is to verify that a flag will be set on $ ! some particular route through the procedure. Many times errors have $ ! been discovered because a flag had not been initialised under some $ ! obscure condition, and the procedure died because of that. $ ! $ FALSE == 0 $ TRUE == 1 $ ! $ ANAL_MED == FALSE $ AT_END == FALSE $ BEFORE_DRIVERS == TRUE $ CONFIG_FILE_COUNT == 0 $ CONFIG_FILES == FALSE $ BUILD_DISK_IMAGE == FALSE $ BUILD_SYSTEM == TRUE $ CBT == "" $ CHECK_FOR_VOLUME_SWITCH == "CALL STA1$CHECK_FOR_VOLUME_SWITCH" $ CMN_SYS_DIR == "" $ CONSOLE_CONNECTED == FALSE $ CONSOLE_DEVICE == FALSE $ CopySB == "CALL STA0$COPY_SB" $ CopyTC == "CALL STA0$COPY_TC" $ COPY_VER == FALSE $ CPU_780 == 1 $ CPU_750 == 2 $ CPU_730 == 3 $ CPU_8600 == 4 $ CPU_8200 == 5 $ CPU_8NN == 6 $ CPU_UV1 == 7 $ CPU_UV2 == 8 $ CPU_8PS == 17 $ CPU_9AQ == 14 $ CREATE_TAPE_INDEX == "CALL STA0$OPEN_INDEX" $ CREATING_TAPE_INDEX == FALSE $ DC_REMCSL_STORAGE == %XAA $ DEFAULT_DIR == F$ENVIRONMENT ("DEFAULT") $ DENS == "" $ DEVICE_MOUNTED == FALSE $ DEVICE_ORIGINALLY_MOUNTED == FALSE $ DISK_FULL == FALSE $ DISK_HEADERS == 12 $ DISK_IMAGE_NPAGEDYN == 5000000 $ DISK_IMAGE_NPAGEVIR == 8000000 $ DISK_OVERHEAD == 34 $ GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL == "" $ HEADER_PARAM == "" $ KIT_DONE == FALSE $ LARGE_DISK_KIT == FALSE $ MEDIA_SWITCH == FALSE $ MNTCACHE == "" $ NUM == 0 $ NUM_OF_FILES == 0 $ P2_VERIFIED == FALSE $ REMOTE_CONSOLE == FALSE $ RX50_IN_RX33_DRIVE == FALSE $ SAY == "WRITE SYS$OUTPUT" $ SEPARATE_CONFIG_VOLUME == FALSE $ SIZE_OF_FILES == 0 $ SMALL_CONSOLE == FALSE $ STABACCOP == "$STABACCOP" $ START_INDEX == FALSE $ Switch_Volume == "CALL STA0$SWITCH_VOLUME" $ TAPE_NPAGEDYN == 950000 $ TAPE_NPAGEVIR == 2000000 $ TRG_DEVICE == "" $ TRGSAVE_DEVICE == "" $ USES_PSEUDO_DISK == FALSE $ VOLUME_COUNT == 0 $ VMS_KIT_BUILD == F$EDIT (P5, "UPCASE") .EQS. "KIT" $ ! $ ! Unsupported debug tools. If DEBUG is defined, STABACKIT $ ! will run in batch mode, building a disk, displaying the $ ! disk, then erasing the disk and building the next one. $ ! This is useful for a quick check of whether files fit on $ ! console media. $ ! $ DEBUG == 0 $ TRACE == 0 $ TRC == "!" ! TRC - execute this line if in trace mo de $ DBG == "!" ! DBG - execute this line if in debug mo de, do not execute in normal mode $ NDBG == "" ! NDBG - do not execute if in debug mode , execute in normal mode $ IF TRACE THEN TRC == "" $ IF DEBUG THEN DBG == "" $ IF DEBUG THEN NDBG == "!" $ ! $ ! Don't let redefined symbols mess us up $ ! $ SET :== SET $ SET SYMBOL /SCOPE = (NOLOCAL) $ ! $'ndbg' IF F$MODE() .NES. "INTERACTIVE" THEN GOTO STA0$ERR_NO_INT $ ! $ SET RMS_DEFAULT /EXTEND_QUANTITY=10 $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO STA0$CLEAN_UP $ ON CONTROL_Y THEN GOTO STA0$CLEAN_UP $ ! $ ! Get necessary privileges and a system UIC $ ! $ SAVED_PRIVS == F$SETPRV ("CMKRNL,CMEXEC,LOG_IO,SYSNAM,SYSPRV,VOLPRO,OPER ,BYPASS,PHY_IO") $ IF .NOT. F$PRIVILEGE ("CMKRNL,CMEXEC,LOG_IO,SYSNAM,SYSPRV,VOLPRO,OPER,BY PASS,PHY_IO") THEN GOTO STA0$ERR_NO_PRIVS $ SAVED_PROT == F$ENVIRONMENT ("PROTECTION") $ SAVED_UIC == F$USER () $ TEMP == F$SETPRV ("NOBYPASS") ! Don't want this all the time $ SET PROTECTION = (SYSTEM=RWED,OWNER=RWED,GROUP=RWED,WORLD) /DEFAULT $ SET UIC [1,4] $ ! $ ! Create a special, unique subdirectory for STABACKIT to do it's work. $ ! $ STABACKIT_DIR == "SYS$SPECIFIC:" $ CREATE /DIRECTORY 'STABACKIT_DIR' $ SET DEFAULT 'STABACKIT_DIR' $ DEFINE /NOLOG STA$LOCAL_DIR 'STABACKIT_DIR' $ ! $ ! Find out where to find the source files. Make sure that the source $ ! directory exists and contains SYS.EXE $ ! $ IF P3 .EQS. "" THEN P3 = "SYS$SYSROOT:" $ SRC_DIRECTORY == P3 $ DEFINE /NOLOG STA$SOURCE 'SRC_DIRECTORY' $ SRC_DEV == F$PARSE (SRC_DIRECTORY,,,"DEVICE") $ SRC_DIR == F$PARSE (SRC_DIRECTORY,,,"DIRECTORY") $ IF F$LOCATE ("S...and BACKUP. The files must be $ ! in the order which SYSBOOT expects them, and all the drivers mus t $ ! be on the last volume. $ ! $ ! Tape kits use the pseudo disk scheme. A file called PSEUDOLOA. EXE $ ! contains the standalone images as well as all the drivers. This file $ ! is loaded into nonpaged pool at boot time. The other system fil es $ ! and loadable images are copied to the tape media. $ ! $ ! The files which are needed for each kit are stored in a table ca lled $ ! STABACKIT-TABLE.DAT. This table contains the name of each syste m $ ! file, as well as information on how to copy the files, and which $ ! kit they belong on. $ ! $ ! In order to conserve space, two different methods are used to co py $ ! the files. Normal VMS images are copied with the STABACCOP prog ram, $ ! which removes symbol table and patch text blocks. STABACCOP cre ates $ ! contiguous files. Non-VMS load images (such as VMB and SYSBOOT) use $ ! the COPY command with the /CONTIGUOUS and /TRUNCATE options. No te $ ! that all files copied to tape use COPY, because STABACCOP doesn' t $ ! work to tape. $ ! $ ! INPUTS: STA$TARGET - logical name pointing to target device and dir ectory $ ! STA$LDR_TARGET - logical name pointing to target device and dir ectory of loadable images $ ! STA$SOURCE - logical name pointing to source directory $ ! STA$LDR_SOURCE - logical name pointing to source directory of l oadable images $ ! APPL_KIT - application name, e.g. "BACKUP" or "BAD" $ ! KIT_DONE - symbol to set after successful completion $ ! TRG_DEVICE - target device name, e.g. "DYA0:" $ ! DEV_TYPE - device type code $ ! BUILD_SYSTEM - build system kit boolean, can only be false on small console kit $ ! BUILD_APPL - build application kit boolean, can only be fal se on small console kit $ ! ANAL_MED - ANALYZE /MEDIA boolean $ !-- $ ! $ ! Set up a local error path $ ! $ IF USES_PSEUDO_DISK .OR. BUILD_DISK_IMAGE $ THEN $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO TAPE$CLEAN_UP $ ON CONTROL_Y THEN GOTO TAPE$CLEAN_UP $ ELSE $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO STA0$CLEAN_UP $ ON CONTROL_Y THEN GOTO STA0$CLEAN_UP $ ENDIF $ ! $ ! Do any preliminary setup stuff needed before copying the files to the kit. $ ! $ IF BUILD_DISK_IMAGE $ THEN $ KIT_NAME == "PSEUDO" $ PSEUDO_NAME == "PSEUDOLOA.EXE" $ GOSUB STA1$PSEUDO_DISK_SETUP $ COPY SYS$SYSTEM:PSEUDOLOA.EXE SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES: $ KIT_NAME == "DISK_IMAGE" $ PSEUDO_NAME == "SABKUP.IMA" $ GOSUB STA1$PSEUDO_DISK_SETUP $ IF (F$SEARCH ("SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:PSEUDOLOA.EXE") .NES. "") $ THEN DELETE /NOLOG SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES:PSEUDOLOA.EXE;* $ ENDIF $ GOSUB STA1$DISK_IMAGE_FINISH $ RETURN $ ENDIF $ IF USES_PSEUDO_DISK $ THEN $ KIT_NAME == "PSEUDO" $ PSEUDO_NAME == "PSEUDOLOA.EXE" $ GOSUB STA1$PSEUDO_DISK_SETUP $ ENDIF $ IF SMALL_CONSOLE THEN GOSUB STA1$SMALL_CONSOLE_SETUP $ IF LARGE_DISK_KIT $ THEN $ IF CMN_SYS_DIR .NES. "" $ THEN GOSUB STA1$SYSTEM_DISK_SETUP $ ELSE GOSUB STA1$LARGE_DISK_SETUP $ ENDIF $ ENDIF $ ! $ IF BUILD_SYSTEM .AND. (.NOT. TAPE) THEN GOSUB STA1$PARSE_TABLE $ IF GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL .NES. "" THEN GOTO 'GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL $ ! $ IF USES_PSEUDO_DISK THEN GOSUB STA1$PSEUDO_DISK_FINISH $ IF SMALL_CONSOLE THEN GOSUB STA1$SMALL_CONSOLE_FINISH $ IF LARGE_DISK_KIT $ THEN $ IF CMN_SYS_DIR .NES. "" $ THEN GOSUB STA1$SYSTEM_DISK_FINISH $ ELSE GOSUB STA1$LARGE_DISK_FINISH $ ENDIF $ ENDIF $ ! $ RETURN ! To STA0$CLEAN_UP $ ! $ STA1$PSEUDO_DISK_SETUP: $ ! $ ! Calculate how much non-paged pool will be required for the $ ! pseudo-disk (both as a check that the SYSGEN parameters for $ ! the standalone system are OK and so that we can calculate $ ! how much pool and disk space will be needed to build it). $ ! $ REQUIRED_SIZE == DISK_OVERHEAD $ IF KIT_NAME .EQS. "DISK_IMAGE" THEN REQUIRED_SIZE == 2*REQUIRED_SIZE+1 $ NUMBER_OF_FILES == 0 $ ! $ ! Calculate the required size for the pseudo disk. $ ! $ GOSUB STA1$PARSE_TABLE $ POOL_REQ == 512*REQUIRED_SIZE $ SYSGEN :== $SYSGEN $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO STA3$NO_CONNECT $ IF .NOT. F$GETDVI ("PDA0:", "EXISTS") THEN - SYSGEN CONNECT PDA0 /NOADAPTER /DRIVER=PDDRIVER $ IF .NOT. F$GETDVI ("PDA0:","EXISTS") THEN GOTO STA3$NO_CONNECT $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO STA3$NO_ALLOC $ IF KIT_NAME .EQS. "PSEUDO" THEN ALLOCATE PDA0: $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO TAPE$CLEAN_UP $ MACRO /OBJECT=SETSIZE.OBJ /NOLIST SYS$INPUT $ DECK .TITLE SETSIZE $IODEF .PSECT $DATA,WRT,NOEXE,LONG PD_DESCR: .ASCID "PDA0:" PD_CHAN: .BLKL 1 PD_IOSB: .BLKQ 1 QIO_ARGS: $QIO IOSB=PD_IOSB CMD_DESCR: .LONG 4 .ADDRESS SIZ_ASC SIZ_ASC: .BLKB 6 PROMPT: .ASCID "Size: " PD_SIZE: .BLKL 1 .PSECT $CODE,EXE,NOWRT .ENTRY SETSIZE,^M<> $ASSIGN_S DEVNAM=PD_DESCR,CHAN=PD_CHAN BLBC R0,DONE MOVZWL PD_CHAN,QIO_ARGS+QIO$_CHAN PUSHAL CMD_DESCR PUSHAQ PROMPT PUSHAQ CMD_DESCR CALLS #3,G^LIB$GET_FOREIGN PUSHAL PD_SIZE PUSHAL CMD_DESCR CALLS #2,G^OTS$CVT_TI_L MOVZBL #IO$_PACKACK,QIO_ARGS+QIO$_FUNC $QIOW_G QIO_ARGS BSBW ERRCHK MOVZBL #IO$_FORMAT,QIO_ARGS+QIO$_FUNC MOVL PD_SIZE,QIO_ARGS+QIO$_P1 $QIOW_G QIO_ARGS BSBW ERRCHK DONE: RET ERRCHK: BLBC R0,20$ BLBC PD_IOSB,10$ RSB 10$: MOVZWL PD_IOSB,R0 20$: RET .END SETSIZE $ EOD $ LINK SETSIZE $ DELETE /NOLOG SETSIZE.OBJ; $ SETSIZE :== $'F$TRNLNM("SYS$DISK")''F$DIRECTORY()'SETSIZE $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO STA3$POOL_FRAGMENTED $ SETSIZE 'REQUIRED_SIZE' $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO TAPE$CLEAN_UP $ DELETE /NOLOG SETSIZE.EXE; $ ! $ ! At this point we know that the pseudo disk has been sized ok, $ ! so initialize the pseudo disk and copy the files to it. $ ! $ IF F$GETDVI ("PDA0:","MNT") THEN DISMOUNT /NOUNLOAD PDA0: $ IF (NUMBER_OF_FILES + DISK_HEADERS) .GT. 16 $ THEN $ HEADERS = NUMBER_OF_FILES + DISK_HEADERS $ ELSE $ HEADERS = 16 $ ENDIF $ INITIALIZE /SYSTEM /HEADERS = 'HEADERS' PDA0: 'KIT_NAME' $ MOUNT /SYSTEM PDA0: 'KIT_NAME' $ IF KIT_NAME .EQS. "PSEUDO" $ THEN SAY "Copy special SYSINIT and application to PDA0:" $ ELSE SAY "Copy application to virtual disk image" $ ENDIF $ CREATE /DIRECTORY /OWNER=[1,4] PDA0: $ CREATE /DIRECTORY /OWNER=[1,4] PDA0: $ OPEN /READ COMMAND_FILE COMMAND.FILE $ PSEUDO$GET_ANOTHER: $ READ /END_OF_FILE=PSEUDO$ENDING COMMAND_FILE COMMAND_LINE $ 'COMMAND_LINE' $ GOTO PSEUDO$GET_ANOTHER $ PSEUDO$ENDING: $ CLOSE COMMAND_FILE $ DISMOUNT /NOUNLOAD PDA0: $ MOUNT /NOMESSAGE /FOREIGN PDA0: $ IF REQUIRED_SIZE .LE. F$GETDVI ("STA$SOURCE","FREEBLOCKS") $ THEN $ SET NOON ! Temporary workaround for COPY bug $ ASSIGN /USER_MODE NL: SYS$ERROR $ ASSIGN /USER_MODE NL: SYS$OUTPUT $ COPY PDA0: STA$SOURCE:'PSEUDO_NAME' /LOG $ SAY "''PSEUDO_NAME' created in directory ''F$TRNLNM (""STA$SOURCE"") '" $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO TAPE$CLEAN_UP $ ENDIF $ ! $ IF (KIT_NAME .EQS. "DISK_IMAGE") THEN RETURN $ IF POOL_REQ .GT. TAPE_NPAGEDYN THEN GOTO STA3$INT_POOL_ERR $ ! $ ! Slight adjustment to SYSGEN parameters for tape kits. Ensure sufficie nt $ ! nonpaged pool and set special parameter PSEUDOLOA, which triggers ever ything. $ ! $ TEMPNAME == "SYS$SYSROOT:STABACKIT-SYSGEN-" + F$GETJPI("","PID") + ".COM" $ OPEN /WRITE TEMPFILE 'TEMPNAME' $ WRITE TEMPFILE "$ RUN SYS$SYSROOT:SYSGEN" $ WRITE TEMPFILE "USE PARAMETER_FILE" $ IF BUILD_DISK_IMAGE $ THEN $ WRITE TEMPFILE "SET NPAGEDYN ''DISK_IMAGE_NPAGEDYN'" $ WRITE TEMPFILE "SET NPAGEVIR ''DISK_IMAGE_NPAGEVIR'" $ ELSE $ WRITE TEMPFILE "SET NPAGEDYN ''TAPE_NPAGEDYN'" $ WRITE TEMPFILE "SET NPAGEVIR ''TAPE_NPAGEVIR'" $ ENDIF $ WRITE TEMPFILE "SET PSEUDOLOA ''REQUIRED_SIZE'" $ WRITE TEMPFILE "WRITE PARAMETER_FILE" $ CLOSE TEMPFILE $ @'TEMPNAME' $ DELETE /NOLOG 'TEMPNAME'; $ ! $ COPY PARAMETER_FILE STA$LOCAL_DIR:VAXVMSSYS.PAR $ IF BUILD_DISK_IMAGE THEN RETURN $ ! Initialize and mount the target device. $ ! $ STA3$MOUNT_TARGET: $ GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL == "" $ IF .NOT. VMS_KIT_BUILD $ THEN $ Switch_Volume "scratch" "SYSTEM" $ IF GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL .NES. "" THEN GOTO 'GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL $ ENDIF $ ! $ KIT_NAME == "TAPE" $ ! $ ! Prior to copying the rest of the files, create the file $ ! OPEN-INDEX.DAT. OPEN_INDEX.DAT will be copied to the tape $ ! directly following SYSBOOT.EXE. The file contains the name and $ ! tape position of each of the files that go on the tape. This $ ! information is used to avoid opening each file and speed up the $ ! boot process. $ ! $ CREATE OPEN_INDEX.MAR $ TAPE_POSITION == 0 $ CREATING_TAPE_INDEX == TRUE $ GOSUB STA1$PARSE_TABLE $ ! $ OPEN /READ TAPE_INDEX_COMMAND_FILE TAPE_COMMAND.FILE $ INDEX$GET_ANOTHER: $ READ /END_OF_FILE=INDEX$ENDING TAPE_INDEX_COMMAND_FILE COMMAND_LINE $ 'COMMAND_LINE' $ GOTO INDEX$GET_ANOTHER $ INDEX$ENDING: $ CLOSE TAPE_INDEX_COMMAND_FILE $ CREATING_TAPE_INDEX == FALSE $ ! $ If F$SEARCH ("STA$SOURCE:PSEUDOLOA.EXE") .NES. "" $ THEN $ CREATE_TAPE_INDEX STA$SOURCE:PSEUDOLOA.EXE $ ELSE $ SET NOON ! Temporary workaround for COPY bug $ ASSIGN /USER_MODE NL: SYS$ERROR $ ASSIGN /USER_MODE NL: SYS$OUTPUT $ COPY PDA0: PSEUDOLOA.EXE $ CREATE_TAPE_INDEX PSEUDOLOA.EXE $ DELETE /NOLOG PSEUDOLOA.EXE; $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO TAPE$CLEAN_UP $ ENDIF $ ! Add the rest of the files. $ ! Note: because of a BACKUP problem, EOVMS.NUL must not be $ ! a zero length file. Use a naked copy because the COPYTC $ ! call has problems with sys$input. $ ! $ COPY /CONTIGUOUS /TRUNCATE SYS$INPUT: EOVMS.NUL $ CREATE_TAPE_INDEX EOVMS.NUL $ DELETE /NOLOG EOVMS.NUL; $ ! $ OPEN /APPEND TMP OPEN_INDEX.MAR $ WRITE TMP " .END" $ CLOSE TMP $ MACRO /NOLIST OPEN_INDEX $ LINK /SYSTEM /EXE=OPEN_INDEX.DAT OPEN_INDEX $ ! $ OPEN /READ COMMAND_FILE COMMAND.FILE $ TAPE$GET_ANOTHER: $ READ /END_OF_FILE=TAPE$ENDING COMMAND_FILE COMMAND_LINE $ 'COMMAND_LINE' $ GOTO TAPE$GET_ANOTHER $ TAPE$ENDING: $ CLOSE COMMAND_FILE $ RETURN ! From subroutine PSEUDO_DISK_SETUP $!+ $! Error routines $!- $ STA3$UNEXPECTED: $ SAY "Unexpected eof or file read error * INTERNAL ERROR *" $ CLOSE TEMP_FILE $ GOTO STA3$ERR_COMMON $ ! $ STA3$NO_CONNECT: $ SAY "Cannot load or connect pseudo-disk." $ GOTO STA3$ERR_COMMON $ ! $ STA3$NO_ALLOC: $ SAY "Cannot allocate pseudo-disk." $ GOTO STA3$ERR_COMMON $ ! $ STA3$INT_POOL_ERR: $ SAY "* INTERNAL ERROR * non-paged pool requirement of ''POOL_REQ'" $ SAY "bytes is greater than maximum expected (''TAPE_NPAGEDYN')." $ GOTO STA3$ERR_COMMON $ ! $ STA3$POOL_FRAGMENTED: $ SAY "" $ SAY "There is insufficient contiguous non-paged dynamic memory in which to load the" $ SAY "pseudo-disk. We need a single block of ''POOL_REQ' free bytes. Pl ease check" $ SAY "the display for SHOW MEMORY /POOL /FULL and see the values which it shows for" $ SAY """Initial Size (NPAGEDYN)"", ""Maximum Size (NPAGEVIR)"", and ""Siz e of Largest" $ SAY "Block""." $ SAY "" $ SAY "You should be able to add ''POOL_REQ' free bytes to the value of NP AGEVIR, and" $ SAY "then reboot. To do this, add a line ""ADD_NPAGEVIR = ''POOL_REQ'"" to the file" $ SAY "SYS$SYSTEM:MODPARAMS.DAT. You should then run AUTOGEN by issuing t he following" $ SAY "command:" $ SAY "" $ SAY " $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN GETDATA REBOOT" $ SAY "" $ SAY "You can leave the value of NPAGEVIR at the larger value, so that yo u will be" $ SAY "able to make additional Standalone BACKUP kits in the future. Ther e is a very" $ SAY "small cost to leaving this value large." $ SAY "" $ SAY "If this does not work, and the system fails to expand pool to the r equired" $ SAY "maximum size, then it will be necessary to add ''POOL_REQ' bytes to the static" $ SAY "parameter NPAGEDYN. Note that you should merely set NPAGEDYN to th e new value" $ OLDVAL = F$GETSYI("NPAGEDYN") $ NEWVAL = OLDVAL + POOL_REQ $ SAY "''NEWVAL', and reboot. After building the Standalone Backup kit, y ou should" $ SAY "set the value of NPAGEDYN back to its current value of ''OLDVAL' an d" $ SAY "reboot again. If you leave NPAGEDYN at ''NEWVAL' bytes, you will a lways be" $ SAY "wasting the ''POOL_REQ' bytes which you only need when you build St andalone" $ SAY "BACKUP. For the same reason, you do not want to raise NPAGEDYN in" $ SAY "MODPARAMS.DAT." $ SAY "" $ SETSIZE 4 $ DELETE /NOLOG SETSIZE.EXE; $ ! $ STA3$ERR_COMMON: $ SAY "" $ GOTO TAPE$CLEAN_UP $ ! $ STA1$SMALL_CONSOLE_SETUP: $ IF BUILD_SYSTEM $ THEN $ ! $ ! Define the kit type. This symbol will be used to search the table . $ ! $ 'ifRX50' KIT_NAME == "RX50" $ 'ifTU58' KIT_NAME == "TU58" $ 'ifRX0x' KIT_NAME == "RX0X" $ 'ifRX33' KIT_NAME == "RX33" $ CREATE VOLUME_SWITCH.INFO $ ENDIF $ RETURN $ ! $ STA1$SYSTEM_DISK_SETUP: $ ! $ CREATE /DIRECTORY /LOG STA$TARGET, STA$LDR_TARGET $ ! $ KIT_NAME == "SYS_DISK" $ RETURN $ ! $ STA1$LARGE_DISK_SETUP: $ ! $ CREATE /DIRECTORY /LOG STA$TARGET, STA$LDR_TARGET $ ! $ ! Define the kit type. This symbol will be used to search the table. $ ! $ KIT_NAME == "LARGE_DISK" $ RETURN $ ! $ STA1$PARSE_TABLE: $ IF F$SEARCH ("STA$LOCAL_DIR:VAXVMSSYS.PAR") .EQS. "" - .AND. (KIT_NAME .NES. "PSEUDO") THEN COPY PARAMETER_FILE STA$LOCAL_D IR:VAXVMSSYS.PAR $ IF F$SEARCH ("STA$LOCAL_DIR:SYSINIT.EXE") .EQS. "" THEN COPY STA$SOURCE: STASYSGEN.EXE STA$LOCAL_DIR:SYSINIT.EXE $ IF (TAPE .OR. REMOTE_CONSOLE) THEN - IF (F$SEARCH ("STA$LOCAL_DIR:STANDALON.EXE") .EQS. "") - THEN COPY STA$SOURCE:STA'APPL_KIT'.EXE STA$LOCAL_DIR:STANDALON.EXE $ ! $ ! Build the list of files that go on the kit and copy them. This list i s $ ! built from the table contained in STABACKIT-TABLE.DAT. $ ! $ OPEN /READ LIST_OF_FILES SYS$UPDATE:STABACKIT-TABLE.DAT $ OPEN /WRITE COPY_COMMAND_FILE COMMAND.FILE $ IF CREATING_TAPE_INDEX $ THEN $ OPEN /WRITE TAPE_INDEX TAPE_COMMAND.FILE $ ENDIF $ STA1$GET_ANOTHER_FILE: $ READ /END_OF_FILE=STA1$END_COPY LIST_OF_FILES FILE_STRING $ IF ( F$EXTRACT (0, 1, FILE_STRING) .EQS. "!") - .OR. (F$LOCATE ("''KIT_NAME'", FILE_STRING) .EQ. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRI NG) ) - THEN GOTO STA1$GET_ANOTHER_FILE $ ! $ ! Get the filename from the table. Note that if there are ever any $ ! files added with a different extension, that extension will have $ ! to be checked here also. $ ! $ IF F$LOCATE (".EXE", FILE_STRING) .NE. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING) - THEN FILE_NAME = F$EXTRACT (0, F$LOCATE (".EXE", FILE_STRING) + 4, F ILE_STRING) $ IF F$LOCATE (".PAR", FILE_STRING) .NE. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING) - THEN FILE_NAME = F$EXTRACT (0, F$LOCATE (".PAR", FILE_STRING) + 4, F ILE_STRING) $ IF F$LOCATE (".DAT", FILE_STRING) .NE. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING) - THEN FILE_NAME = F$EXTRACT (0, F$LOCATE (".DAT", FILE_STRING) + 4, F ILE_STRING) $ IF F$LOCATE (".SYS", FILE_STRING) .NE. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING) - THEN FILE_NAME = F$EXTRACT (0, F$LOCATE (".SYS", FILE_STRING) + 4, F ILE_STRING) $ IF (F$LOCATE ("SYSEXE", FILE_STRING) .NES. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING) ) $ THEN $ TARGET_DIR = "STA$TARGET" $ IF (F$LOCATE ("LOCAL", FILE_STRING) .NES. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING) ) $ THEN SOURCE_DIR = "STA$LOCAL_DIR" $ ELSE SOURCE_DIR = "STA$SOURCE" $ ENDIF $ PSEUDO_TARGET = "PDA0:" $ ELSE $ 'ifnotMAGTAPE' TARGET_DIR = "STA$LDR_TARGET" $ 'ifMAGTAPE' TARGET_DIR = "STA$TARGET" $ SOURCE_DIR = "STA$LDR_SOURCE" $ PSEUDO_TARGET = "PDA0:" $ ENDIF $ FILE_SPEC == ''SOURCE_DIR' + ":" + FILE_NAME $ IF (KIT_NAME .NES. "PSEUDO" .AND. KIT_NAME .NES. "DISK_IMAGE") $ THEN $ ! $ ! If the file is optional, and it's not on the system, then get the next file. $ ! $ IF (F$LOCATE ("OPTIONAL", FILE_STRING) .NES. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING) ) - .AND. (F$SEARCH ("''FILE_SPEC'") .EQS. "") $ THEN $ GOTO STA1$GET_ANOTHER_FILE $ ENDIF $ ! $ ! Determine whether to use COPY or STABACCOP to copy the file. $ ! $ IF (F$LOCATE ("COPYTC", FILE_STRING) .NES. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING) ) .OR. TAPE $ THEN $ COPY_FILE = "COPYTC" $ ELSE $ COPY_FILE = "COPYSB" $ ENDIF $ IF SMALL_CONSOLE THEN CHECK_FOR_VOLUME_SWITCH $ IF CREATING_TAPE_INDEX $ THEN $ IF FILE_NAME .EQS. "SYS.EXE" THEN START_INDEX == TRUE $ IF START_INDEX THEN WRITE TAPE_INDEX "CREATE_TAPE_INDEX ", FILE_ SPEC $ ENDIF $ WRITE COPY_COMMAND_FILE COPY_FILE," ", FILE_SPEC," ", TARGET_DIR, ": ", CBT $ ELSE $ ! Temporarily allow for optional images in the disk image. $ ! $ IF (((KIT_NAME .EQS. "PSEUDO") .AND. - (FILE_NAME .EQS. "PSEUDOLOA.EXE")) .OR. - ((KIT_NAME .EQS. "DISK_IMAGE") .AND. - (F$LOCATE ("OPTIONAL", FILE_STRING) .NES. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING )) .AND. - (F$SEARCH ("''FILE_SPEC'") .EQS. ""))) $ THEN $ GOTO STA1$GET_ANOTHER_FILE $ ENDIF $ REQUIRED_SIZE == REQUIRED_SIZE + F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES (FILE_SPEC, "EOF" ) + 1 $ NUMBER_OF_FILES == NUMBER_OF_FILES + 1 $ WRITE COPY_COMMAND_FILE "COPY /LOG ", FILE_SPEC, " ", PSEUDO_TARGET $ ENDIF $ GOTO STA1$GET_ANOTHER_FILE $ ! $ STA1$END_COPY: $ CLOSE LIST_OF_FILES $ CLOSE COPY_COMMAND_FILE $ IF CREATING_TAPE_INDEX $ THEN $ CLOSE TAPE_INDEX $ RETURN $ ENDIF $ IF (KIT_NAME .EQS. "PSEUDO" .OR. KIT_NAME .EQS. "DISK_IMAGE") THEN RETUR N $ OPEN /READ COMMAND_FILE COMMAND.FILE $ IF SMALL_CONSOLE $ THEN $ AT_END == TRUE $ CHECK_FOR_VOLUME_SWITCH $ OPEN /READ SWITCH_INFO VOLUME_SWITCH.INFO $ ENDIF $ STA1$GET_ANOTHER: $ READ /END_OF_FILE=STA1$ENDING COMMAND_FILE COMMAND_LINE $ IF SMALL_CONSOLE .AND. (NUM .EQ. 0) $ THEN $ READ SWITCH_INFO NUM $ READ SWITCH_INFO SWITCH_COMMAND $ GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL == "" $ 'SWITCH_COMMAND' $ IF GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL .NES. "" THEN GOTO 'GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL $ ENDIF $ 'COMMAND_LINE' $ IF SMALL_CONSOLE THEN NUM = NUM - 1 $ GOTO STA1$GET_ANOTHER $ STA1$ENDING: $ CLOSE COMMAND_FILE $ RETURN $ ! $ STA1$CHECK_FOR_VOLUME_SWITCH: $ SUBROUTINE $ ! $ ! Calculate the size of the file and decide if we need to switch volumes . $ ! Also determine, by looking in the table, whether to copy using a conti guous $ ! best try, rather than contiguous or fail. $ ! $ ON WARNING THEN EXIT $STATUS $ ON CONTROL_Y THEN EXIT 44 ! SS$ABORT $ IF F$LOCATE ("CBT", FILE_STRING) .NES. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING) THEN CBT = = " 1 99" $ FILE_SIZE == F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES (FILE_SPEC, "EOF") $ IF ((SEPARATE_CONFIG_VOLUME .EQ. TRUE) .AND. - ((FILE_NAME .EQS. "CPULOA.EXE") .OR. (FILE_NAME .EQS. "SYSINIT.EXE") .OR. (FILE_NAME .EQS."STANDCONF.EXE"))) $ THEN $ FILE_SIZE == 0 $ NUM_OF_FILES == 0 $ ENDIF $ SIZE_OF_FILES == SIZE_OF_FILES + FILE_SIZE $ 'ifRX0x' DISK_OVERHEAD == 0 $ IF ((SIZE_OF_FILES + DISK_OVERHEAD + DISK_HEADERS + NUM_OF_FILES) .GT. S IZE_OF_DISK) - .AND. BEFORE_DRIVERS THEN DISK_FULL == TRUE $ ! $ ! If we've hit the NEW_VOLUME string in the table file, and we haven't h ad $ ! to force a switch for the three boot files, then switch volumes for th e $ ! driver volume. $ ! $ IF (.NOT. SEPARATE_CONFIG_VOLUME) .AND. - (F$LOCATE ("NEW_VOLUME", FILE_STRING) .NES. F$LENGTH (FILE_STRING)) - THEN DISK_FULL == TRUE $ ! $ ! All the drivers must be on the last volume. CPULOA.EXE, STANDCONF.EXE and $ ! SYSINIT.EXE (alias STASYSGEN.EXE) must all be on the volume just previ ous to $ ! the driver volume. $ ! $ IF (FILE_NAME .EQS. "CPULOA.EXE") THEN CONFIG_FILES == TRUE $ IF DISK_FULL .OR. AT_END $ THEN $ WRITE_TO_SWITCH_FILE: $ VOLUME_COUNT == VOLUME_COUNT + 1 $ IF VOLUME_COUNT .EQ. 1 THEN NUMBER = "first" $ IF VOLUME_COUNT .EQ. 2 THEN NUMBER = "second" $ IF VOLUME_COUNT .EQ. 3 THEN NUMBER = "third" $ IF VOLUME_COUNT .EQ. 4 THEN NUMBER = "fourth" $ IF VOLUME_COUNT .EQ. 5 THEN NUMBER = "fifth" $ IF VOLUME_COUNT .EQ. 6 THEN NUMBER = "sixth" $ IF VOLUME_COUNT .EQ. 7 THEN NUMBER = "seventh" $ IF (NUM_OF_FILES + DISK_HEADERS) .GT. 16 $ THEN $ HEADERS = NUM_OF_FILES + DISK_HEADERS $ ELSE $ HEADERS = 16 $ ENDIF $ OPEN /APPEND SWITCH_INFO VOLUME_SWITCH.INFO $ ! $ ! If we can't fit CPULOA, STANDCONF and SYSINIT on this volume, forc e a $ ! volume switch. This is a special case, because the volume switch $ ! information will be one step ahead of the copy commands in the $ ! temporary work files, so remember that we did this. $ ! $ IF CONFIG_FILES .AND. (CONFIG_FILE_COUNT .LT. 3) $ THEN $ WRITE SWITCH_INFO NUM_OF_FILES - CONFIG_FILE_COUNT $ CONFIG_FILE_COUNT == 0 $ SEPARATE_CONFIG_VOLUME == TRUE $ WRITE SWITCH_INFO "SWITCH_VOLUME ", """", NUMBER," system""", " ""SYSTEM_", VOLUME_COUNT, """ ", HEADERS $ ! $ ! Prepare so that CPULOA, STANDCONF and SYSINIT will go onto the next volume. $ ! Loop again to write out the volume switch information for thos e three files. $ ! $ CONFIG_FILES == FALSE $ DISK_FULL == FALSE $ NUM_OF_FILES == 3 $ FILE_SIZE == 0 $ SIZE_OF_FILES == 0 $ GOTO WRITE_TO_SWITCH_FILE $ ELSE $ WRITE SWITCH_INFO NUM_OF_FILES $ WRITE SWITCH_INFO "SWITCH_VOLUME ", """", NUMBER," system""", " ""SYSTEM_", VOLUME_COUNT, """ ", HEADERS $ ENDIF $ CLOSE SWITCH_INFO $ ! $ ! Clean up flags for next pass. $ ! $ NUM_OF_FILES == 0 $ IF (FILE_NAME .EQS. "STANDCONF.EXE") THEN BEFORE_DRIVERS == FALSE $ SIZE_OF_FILES == FILE_SIZE $ DISK_FULL == FALSE $ ENDIF ! End of full disk calculations. $ NUM_OF_FILES == NUM_OF_FILES + 1 $ IF CONFIG_FILES THEN CONFIG_FILE_COUNT == CONFIG_FILE_COUNT + 1 $ EXIT $ ENDSUBROUTINE ! STA1$CHECK_FOR_VOLUME_SWITCH $ ! $ STA1$PSEUDO_DISK_FINISH: $ ! $ If F$SEARCH("STA$SOURCE:PSEUDOLOA.EXE") .NES. "" $ THEN $ CopyTC STA$SOURCE:PSEUDOLOA.EXE STA$TARGET: $ ELSE $ SAY "Insufficient disk space to create PSEUDOLOA.EXE" $ SAY "...copying directly to target device." $ SET NOON ! Temporary workaround for COPY bug $ ASSIGN/USER NL: SYS$ERROR $ ASSIGN/USER NL: SYS$OUTPUT $ COPY PDA0: STA$TARGET:PSEUDOLOA.EXE $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO TAPE$CLEAN_UP $ ENDIF $ ! $ ! Note: because of a BACKUP problem, EOVMS.NUL must not be $ ! a zero length file. Use a naked copy because the COPYTC $ ! call has problems with sys$input. $ ! $ ! Note that there must be a blank line after this copy. If $ ! a dollar sign is detected, STABACKIT writes an extra tape $ ! mark and the VMS kit duplication program will fail, thinking $ ! it's at the end of the tape volume. $ ! $ COPY /CONTIGUOUS /TRUNCATE SYS$INPUT: STA$TARGET:EOVMS.NUL $ IF F$GETDVI("PDA0:","EXISTS") $ THEN $ IF F$GETDVI ("PDA0:","MNT") THEN DISMOUNT/NOUNLOAD PDA0: $ IF F$GETDVI ("PDA0:","ALL") THEN DEALLOCATE PDA0: $ ENDIF $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO TAPE$CLEAN_UP $ DISMOUNT /NOUNLOAD 'TRG_DEVICE' $ KIT_DONE == TRUE $ TAPE$CLEAN_UP: $ IF F$GETDVI("PDA0:","EXISTS") $ THEN $ IF F$GETDVI ("PDA0:","MNT") THEN DISMOUNT /NOUNLOAD PDA0: $ IF F$GETDVI ("PDA0:","ALL") THEN DEALLOCATE PDA0: $ ENDIF $ ! $ GOTO STA0$CLEAN_UP $ RETURN $ ! $ STA1$DISK_IMAGE_FINISH: $ ! $ IF F$GETDVI ("PDA0:", "EXISTS") $ THEN $ IF F$GETDVI ("PDA0:", "MNT") THEN DISMOUNT/NOUNLOAD PDA0: $ IF F$GETDVI ("PDA0:", "ALL") THEN DEALLOCATE PDA0: $ ENDIF $ IF (CPU_TYPE .EQS. CPU_9AQ) $ THEN $ SAY "" $ SAY "Copying the standalone BACKUP image to the console hard disk." $ SAY "This operation may take as long as 15 minutes." $ SAY "" $ COPY STA$SOURCE:SABKUP.IMA 'TRG_DEVICE'[USERFILES]/LOG $ ENDIF $ KIT_DONE == TRUE $ RETURN $ ! $ STA1$SMALL_CONSOLE_FINISH: $ ! $'trc' CALL STA0$SHOW_DEVICE 'trg_device' 3_system $ ! $ ! If we need to build the application kit, then switch volumes and $ ! copy the application image. $ ! $ IF BUILD_APPL $ THEN $ GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL == "" $ Switch_Volume "application" "''APPL_KIT'" 16 $ IF GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL .NES. "" THEN GOTO 'GLOBAL_RETURN_LABEL $ CopySB STA$SOURCE:STA'APPL_KIT'.EXE STA$TARGET:STANDALON.EXE 1 99 9 $ ENDIF $'trc' CALL STA0$SHOW_DEVICE 'trg_device' 4_backup $ KIT_DONE == TRUE $ RETURN $ ! $ STA1$SYSTEM_DISK_FINISH: $ ! $ ! Point to the common system directory. $ ! $ SET FILE /LOG /ENTER='TRG_DEVICE'SYSCOMMON.DIR;1 'CMN_SYS_DIR' $ ! $ ! Since very nasty things can happen if S/A Backup is run on a cluster w ith shadowing, $ ! place a copy of the non-shadowing DUDRIVER on this root with the name of the shadowing $ ! driver. This will ensure that an attempt to boot into a shadowing env ironment will $ ! produce system bugchecks rather than cause serious corruption of disks . (Check for $ ! the existence of some form of DSDRIVER so that we won't use the extra space on µVMS.) $ ! $ IF F$SEARCH ("STA$LDR_SOURCE:DSDRIVER.*") .NES. "" THEN - CopyTC STA$LDR_SOURCE:DUDRIVER.EXE STA$LDR_TARGET:DSDRIVER.EXE $ CopySB STA$SOURCE:STA'APPL_KIT'.EXE STA$TARGET:STANDALON.EXE $ KIT_DONE == TRUE $ RETURN $ ! $ STA1$LARGE_DISK_FINISH: $ @STA$SOURCE:VMS$INSTALL_UPG_DATA.COM $ ISL_VER = F$EXTRACT(3,F$LENGTH(VMS$G_KIT_ID)-3,VMS$G_KIT_ID) $ FILE_SPEC = "ISL_LVAX_''isl_ver'.SYS" $ IF F$SEARCH ("STA$SOURCE:''FILE_SPEC'") .NES. "" THEN GOTO COPY_LVAX $ FILE_SPEC = "ISL_LVAX.SYS" $ IF F$SEARCH ("STA$SOURCE:''FILE_SPEC'") .EQS. "" THEN GOTO ERROR $ COPY_LVAX: $ COPY /TRUNCATE /CONTIGUOUS /LOG STA$SOURCE:'FILE_SPEC' STA$TARGET:ISL_L VAX_'isl_ver'.SYS $ FILE_SPEC = "ISL_SVAX_''isl_ver'.SYS" $ IF F$SEARCH ("STA$SOURCE:''FILE_SPEC'") .NES. "" THEN GOTO COPY_SVAX $ FILE_SPEC = "ISL_SVAX.SYS" $ IF F$SEARCH ("STA$SOURCE:''FILE_SPEC'") .EQS. "" THEN GOTO ERROR $ COPY_SVAX: $ COPY /TRUNCATE /CONTIGUOUS /LOG STA$SOURCE:'FILE_SPEC' STA$TARGET:ISL_S VAX_'isl_ver'.SYS $ ! $ ! Build special ISL file. This files has pointers for the ISL files $ ! that are located in [sysexe]. $ ! $ OPEN /WRITE SCRIPTFILE 'TRG_DEVICE'[000000]ISL_SCRIPT.ESS $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "! ==================================================== ========" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "! [000000]ISL_SCRIPT.ESS" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "! Command file for ''VMS$G_VER_ID' CD, down-line loadi ng from InfoServer." $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "! ==================================================== ========" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "! Format:" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "!" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "! USE MOP file_spec /PAR=mop_id ""identification strin g"" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "!" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "! 1) The character ""!"" denotes a comment" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "!" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "! 2) One command line can be up to 158 characters long " $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "!" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "! 3) One command must be specified on one line" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "!" $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "USE MOP [SYS0.SYSEXE]ISL_LVAX_''ISL_VER'.SYS /PAR=ISL_ LVAX_''ISL_VER' ""VMS ''VMS$G_VER_ID' ISL support $ WRITE SCRIPTFILE "USE MOP [SYS0.SYSEXE]ISL_SVAX_''ISL_VER'.SYS /PAR=ISL_ SVAX_''ISL_VER' ""VMS ''VMS$G_VER_ID' ISL support $ CLOSE SCRIPTFILE $ GOTO END_ISL $ ERROR: $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "CAN'T FIND FILE STA$SOURCE:''FILE_SPEC'" $ END_ISL: $ ! $ ! Write a boot block, only necessary for VAX-11/750 kit and VAX-11/8200 kit. $ ! $ IF ( F$SEARCH ("STA$TARGET:VMB.EXE") .NES. "") - .OR. F$SEARCH ("SYS$SYSTEM:WRITEBOOT.EXE") .NES. "") $ THEN $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:WRITEBOOT STA$TARGET:VMB.EXE 1 200 $ ENDIF $ ! $ ! Copy the application image $ ! $ STA2$COPY_APPL_FILE: $ CopySB STA$SOURCE:STA'APPL_KIT'.EXE STA$TARGET:STANDALON.EXE $ ! $ KIT_DONE == TRUE $ RETURN $ ! $ STA0$OPEN_INDEX: $ SUBROUTINE $ ! $ ! This subroutine will be called once for each file that goes to $ ! tape. It creates the file information in OPEN_INDEX.DAT to $ ! speed tape booting. $ ! $ ON CONTROL_Y THEN EXIT 44 ! SS$_ABORT $ ON WARNING THEN EXIT $STATUS $ SIZE = 'F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES (P1, "EOF") $ TAPE_POSITION == TAPE_POSITION + SIZE + 11 !11 BLOCKS TAPEHEADER /TAPEMA RK OVERHEAD $ FILE_NAME = F$PARSE (P1,,,"NAME") + F$PARSE (P1,,,"TYPE") $ LENGTH = 'F$LENGTH (FILE_NAME) $ OPEN/APPEND TMP OPEN_INDEX.MAR $ WRITE TMP " .PSECT NOEXE,PAGE" $ WRITE TMP " .LONG ''LENGTH' $ WRITE TMP " .ASCII /''FILE_NAME'/ $ WRITE TMP " .ALIGN LONG" $ WRITE TMP " .LONG ''SIZE' $ WRITE TMP " .LONG ''TAPE_POSITION' $ CLOSE TMP $ EXIT $ ENDSUBROUTINE ! STA0$OPEN_INDEX $ ! $ $ $ $ From pjoules at enterprise.net Wed Apr 1 13:42:20 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Hard disk trouble? Message-ID: My (just on topic) Sun 386i seems to have died. I could hear the hard drive seeking continuously so I tried to login as root to shut it down and it hung. I stopped it with L1 + A and then rebooted. part way through the boot process it simply scrolled the following error message: sd2a: read retry blk 6728 (abs blk 6728) sense key (0x04): hardware error error code (0x09): servo error [repeated 3 times] sd2: rezero failed Does this mean that the hard drive ( the standard CDC Wren IV 340Mb ) has finally turned up its toes? TIA Pete From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 1 13:49:02 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Installing VMS from RL02s Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A80C35F1@mail.simconv.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel A. Seagraves [mailto:DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com] > [VMS standalone backup] > How do you MAKE one of those? I have an RZ23 making increase > amounts of noise, > and I'd like to back it up. Log in as SYSTEM, then.... $ SET DEF SYS$UPDATE $ @STABACKIT follow the prompts, give it the name of the disk or tape device where you want the standalone built. BTW this only works for VAXes, not Alphas. Jack Peacock From van at wired.com Wed Apr 1 13:56:32 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Archiving docs In-Reply-To: <3521E0F4.B0905519@bigfoot.com> References: <19980330230317.21602ffc.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: Shawn, If you were using Fotolook 2+ scanning software for the Arcus you possibly engaged the "descreen" function (set to the correct line screen) which automatically adjusts the scanner to compensate for screen angles and minimizes moir?...however it is possible to adjust a moir?ed or "color screened" image within Photoplop through a number of methods...depending on the quality of the image, mode and detail...to achieve the best possible result. One of the easiest methods is Noise>Despeckle...this will usually do a fair job but is usually best used in correcting badly compressed jpegs and indexed gifs...it tends to leave ugly fragmented color boundaries and can create that oh-so-stylish "plasticised" look we all aspire to...(joking.) You can also try re-interpolating the image by setting your interpolation to Bicubic, changing your image size to 200% (resampled) and then reducing back to it's original size...this only works if maintaining sharpness is not a factor and can sometimes exacerbate the problem. Also, Noise>Dust & Scratches or a mild Blur>Gaussian Blur of 1 pxl or so will usually do the trick but again, you are going to lose detail (running an unsharp mask of 30-50% can help)... It is _always_ best to correct these problems at the scanning stage...that is the only way to both maintain quality AND optimize sharpness/detail...quick fixes will almost always degrade the image. Not to ba a prude...but what on earth does this have to do with the discussion regarding the collecting of classic computers? Archiving? Hmmm... Most manuals are photocopied so scanning as hi-res line art is definitely best (aliasing just seems to make text un-readable) but for color brochures and whatnot I would definitely scan with the descreen set to "Art Magazine (175 lpi)" with "Sharpness" set to LOW...if that looks wonky, try "Magazine (133 lpi)." With the image in Photoshop, adjust your curves to improve contrast and saturation (most scans of printed matter come out FLAT FLAT FLAT) and then run an unsharp mask. Voila. This should really get the groove on... van >BTW do any of you know of software that can do a good job converting color >screened images (like out of a newspaper or magazine) back to smooth color? I >have a theory that it's possible to extract more information than just one >pixel per screen dot, but I'm not quite sure. I used a high-end Arcus scanner >on a Mac once that did a beautiful job of this, but I don't know whether the >scanner or the software was really doing the work, and whether it did >something tricky to increase the resolution or just computed the color for the >area occupied by each screen dot and then interpolated. >-- > _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com > (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud > __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BMW |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] - ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 1 14:11:51 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Installing VMS from RL02s Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A80C35F2@mail.simconv.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel A. Seagraves [mailto:DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com] > > [Tell us what's IN stabackit.com!] Stabackit will build a bootable version of standalone backup on the target device. You can boot from the device and then restore backup tapes to new disks. Jack Peacock From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 1 14:23:11 1998 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: RS 102 References: <3.0.1.16.19980401095623.591f1df0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3522A22F.51032C69@ix.netcom.com> You don't need a power supply to test these. I believe they run off of AA batteries. They have built-in programs in rom (basic, word processor, terminal program), so you shouldn't need to run a self-test. Generally, they go from $40-$100 depending on condition and accesories. Joe wrote: > I have a chance to buy a box full of Radio Shack model 102 portable > computers. None have been tested and there are no power supplies with > > them. Does anyone know what voltage and polarity the external power > connector uses? And if there is any kind of self-test built-in? Can > anyone > give me an idea of what these are worth? > > Joe From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Wed Apr 1 14:25:27 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: RS 102 Message-ID: Same here. I'd be interested if any of those 102's become available. -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk > [SMTP:Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 11:15 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re[2]: RS 102 > > David wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/1/98 9:57:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > > > > << I have a chance to buy a box full of Radio Shack model 102 > portable > > computers. None have been tested and there are no power supplies > with them. > > Does anyone know what voltage and polarity the external power > connector > > uses? And if there is any kind of self-test built-in? Can anyone > give me an > > idea of what these are worth? >> > > > > shoot, i'd love to have another tandy 102! my ac adaptor for my 102 > says 6v dc > > at 400 ma > > I'd love to have one at all! > > Seriously, Joe, if you get a box full, will you be putting some up for > > sale? > > > according to the little drawing on the adaptor, the inner part of > the plug is > > negative. outer part is positive. not sure what they're worth, but i > bought > > That's all I'd need to know. I am quite used to building PSUs on such > a > spec. Or less. (Actually I'd look inside to see whether it needs to > be > regulated, but 6V seldom does). > > > mine with the accompanying battery operated cassette recorder and > owner's > > manual for $25. would love to find the external floppy for it. > > The model 100 I've seen for 100 or more UK pounds over here. I don't > know what additional features were in the 102; I also don't think I > could afford L100. But I'd probably pay $50 US including shipping for > a > model 102 without power supply. > > Philip. > > PS I'm back from Taiwan at last. Taiwan really is the most unhackish > > place I've been on my travels... But more to the point, I've missed > most of the last 3 weeks on Classiccmp, so I may be ignorant of the > context on some longer-running threads. Please forgive any silly > questions that may arise... From lisard at zetnet.co.uk Wed Apr 1 14:28:25 1998 From: lisard at zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Archiving docs Message-ID: <199804012028.VAA07088@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> On 1998-04-01 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet.co.uk :Have you actually checked this? GIF's do compress well, and you are :correct on loseless... but if you are just GIFfing the scans, they :do *not* compress well. GIFs are just RLE compressed (That's Run :Length Encoding for all you non-gfx types out there) and if you no they aren't - they use a form of lempel-ziv compression, which is why they tend to compress anything pretty well. they aren't much good on photos, but anything with a small range of colours is meat to the grist. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... From pjoules at enterprise.net Wed Apr 1 14:42:24 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Daniel Seagraves' 50k post In-Reply-To: <199804021938.NAA01375@bony.umtec.com> Message-ID: Does a 50k script with no comment count as mailbombing the list or am I missing the point somewhere? Regards Pete From chemif at mbox.queen.it Wed Apr 1 14:51:03 1998 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (RICCARDO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: <199804012051.WAA17496@mbox.queen.it> At 00:56 01/04/98 -0800, you wrote: > I have had an instance of this recently. At work a tape drive attached to a > PC and which takes the same size casettes as my Sun386i is about to become > redundant. The an accounts clerk in the department concerned has said that > I will not be able to have the _drive_ because it has been used for > confidential data. The fact that the data is on the _tapes_ seems to > reflect on the availability of the drive! He, he,...so they would do the same also with keyboards: They have been used for confidential data, no? Ciao! ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 1 15:08:20 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Old Data In-Reply-To: <01bd5d4a$acce3480$104e53c2@MIS2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Pete Joules wrote: > > >As one facet of this, we might consider what people would do with > >their old systems, if they even got the *impression* that their > >private information might be read by a new owner. They might > >prefer to totally destroy the machine than to take a risk like > >that. > > > I have had an instance of this recently. At work a tape drive attached to a > PC and which takes the same size casettes as my Sun386i is about to become > redundant. The an accounts clerk in the department concerned has said that > I will not be able to have the _drive_ because it has been used for > confidential data. The fact that the data is on the _tapes_ seems to > reflect on the availability of the drive! > > Regards > Pete > > Thus was it ever! Once a 'bean counter' always a 'bean counter'. - don From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 1 15:07:43 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Daniel Seagraves' 50k post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13344408958.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [50k = mailbombing?] Wa, was that 50k? [quick check] Oops... *REALLY* sorry! I didn't think a script would be that big... I should have check first, then mailed it private. I figured the commands inside would be of general intrest. *REALLY* sorry! ------- From ecloud at bigfoot.com Wed Apr 1 15:19:56 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Archiving docs References: <19980330230317.21602ffc.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: <3522AF7C.144DC00@bigfoot.com> Van Burnham wrote: > If you were using Fotolook 2+ scanning software for the Arcus you possibly > engaged the "descreen" function (set to the correct line screen) which Yep, that was it. > automatically adjusts the scanner to compensate for screen angles and > minimizes moir?...however it is possible to adjust a moir?ed or "color > > One of the easiest methods is Noise>Despeckle...this will usually do a fair I've tried that. > You can also try re-interpolating the image by setting your interpolation > to Bicubic, changing your image size to 200% (resampled) and then reducing Why? I would think that sequence would be completely reversible. One pixel becomes four pixels and then back again. > back to it's original size...this only works if maintaining sharpness is > not a factor and can sometimes exacerbate the problem. Also, Noise>Dust & > Scratches or a mild Blur>Gaussian Blur of 1 pxl or so will usually do the > trick but again, you are going to lose detail (running an unsharp mask of > 30-50% can help)... Tried that too. That worked the best of what I have tried so far. > > It is _always_ best to correct these problems at the scanning stage...that > is the only way to both maintain quality AND optimize > sharpness/detail...quick fixes will almost always degrade the image. Well that was my experience with that particular scanning software but I just want to know how they did it so I can reproduce the results in something else. I was thinking if your CCD has 300 DPI and you scan at say, the dot frequency of 133 dpi, does it really sample all 300 pixels in an inch and then resample downwards or does it just sample the CCD pixel that is closest to the dot being scanned? If it does the former, then scanning at 300 DPI and then down-converting to 133 DPI in Photoshop should be exactly equivalent; if it does the latter, then I would expect really bad results because sometimes the CCD element being sampled falls on a screen dot and sometimes it doesn't. In reality the dot size is supposed to correspond to the darkness of that color; so if you had an optical means to sample the entire "cell" consisting of the screen dot plus the white space around it, the whole cell and nothing but the cell, then you could get the color right for that cell, but the cells are not an orthonormal array; the screens are slanted (and to make matters worse, differently for different colors). So I think the optimal solution might be to sample at a very very high resolution (many pixels per screen dot), edge detect the screen dots, use that information to break up the image into cells, average the darkness for all the dots in each cell, use that color to fill the entire cell, and then resample that image downwards to the maximum achievable resolution (whatever that is). As long as screen dots don't overlap you could even do that separately for each color. I don't know if any existing software does that. Maybe Fotolook did. Or maybe that's overkill; maybe just a few samples per screen dot is enough. But I'm pretty sure skipping any of the CCD's available dots is not a good idea, and I don't know if that's what my scanner does when I tell it to sample at 133 dpi. (I have an HP IIcx.) > > Not to ba a prude...but what on earth does this have to do with the > discussion regarding the collecting of classic computers? Archiving? Not much but it is at least an interesting tangent isn't it? (Sorry if we're boring anybody.) -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 1 15:41:07 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Daniel Seagraves' 50k post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Pete Joules wrote: > Does a 50k script with no comment count as mailbombing the list > or am I missing the point somewhere? > > Regards > Pete > > Nah! He's just elated!!! - don From mor at crl.com Wed Apr 1 15:50:27 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Archiving docs References: <199804012028.VAA07088@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <3522B6A3.557AC200@crl.com> lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > On 1998-04-01 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet.co.uk > :Have you actually checked this? GIF's do compress well, and you are > :correct on loseless... but if you are just GIFfing the scans, they > :do *not* compress well. GIFs are just RLE compressed (That's Run > :Length Encoding for all you non-gfx types out there) and if you > > no they aren't - they use a form of lempel-ziv compression, which is why > they tend to compress anything pretty well. they aren't much good on > photos, but anything with a small range of colours is meat to the grist. I'm not an authority here, but according to the author of Image Magick (Unix freeware), it is not technically legal for graphics software to generate lempel-ziv compressed GIFs for end users who have not bought a license to use it. Patent law stuff... next subject ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 1 12:29:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: RS 102 In-Reply-To: <9803018914.AA891476527@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Apr 1, 98 05:15:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 855 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980401/ee335b34/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 1 11:31:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: RL02 Positioning Question. In-Reply-To: <199804010154.UAA24190@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Mar 31, 98 08:54:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 934 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980401/e72b399b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 1 11:37:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Special book find today In-Reply-To: <007201bd5d11$39746b00$44f438cb@nostromo> from "Andrew Davie" at Apr 1, 98 11:55:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 817 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980401/ffab6d98/attachment.ksh From archive at navix.net Wed Apr 1 18:56:17 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Daniel Seagraves' 50k post References: Message-ID: <3522E230.8020D383@navix.net> Pete Joules wrote: > Does a 50k script with no comment count as mailbombing the list > or am I missing the point somewhere? > > Regards > Pete I was wondering the same thing.... what exactly was that 50k program anyway. Was it intended for the list, or what, Danny? CORD -- ___________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |___________________________________________________| | \____________________________________________________\| From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 1 17:28:21 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Daniel Seagraves' 50k post In-Reply-To: <3522E230.8020D383@navix.net> Message-ID: <13344434558.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [What was that massed message?] Yes, the bad pun was intended... It's a VMS script that's supposed to make a bootable backup. It was intended for the list. ------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 1 17:39:16 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Quick question References: <3522E230.8020D383@navix.net> Message-ID: <3522D023.DBF559D5@bbtel.com> Someone else gave me the info on how to sign onto the list but I don't have the info any longer. I need it to give to another classic pooter enthusiast at Disney in California. I've seen the info in the footer of messages but don't have one saved with it. Sorry for the out of ordinary request. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From circuitsurgeon at fwi.com Wed Apr 1 17:40:44 1998 From: circuitsurgeon at fwi.com (Gil Jasmin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Quick question References: <3522E230.8020D383@navix.net> <3522D023.DBF559D5@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3522D07C.212F@fwi.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Someone else gave me the info on how to sign onto the list but I don't > have the info any longer. I need it to give to another classic pooter > enthusiast at Disney in California. I've seen the info in the footer of > messages but don't have one saved with it. > > Sorry for the out of ordinary request. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ # 1714857 > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Is the Disney's man name Steve? Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with no subject and a message with only the line: subscribe classiccmp Your Name -- Live Long and Prosper Gil Jasmin 313 w. Paulding Rd. Ft. Wayne, Indiana 46807-3428 http://www2.fwi.com/~circuitsurgeon http://www2.fwi.com/~circuitsurgeon/neonking.html From dastar at wco.com Wed Apr 1 18:05:11 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Quick question In-Reply-To: <3522D07C.212F@fwi.com> Message-ID: Just to clarify... > Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with no subject and a > message with only the line: > > subscribe classiccmp Your Name ^^^^^^^^^ should be yourlogin@yourdomain.com Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Wed Apr 1 19:05:27 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Quick question Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980402110527.007b3260@cts.canberra.edu.au> Dear All, At 16:05 1/04/98 -0800, Sam Ismail (dastar@wco.com) wrote: >Just to clarify... > >> Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with no subject and a >> message with only the line: >> >> subscribe classiccmp Your Name > ^^^^^^^^^ should be yourlogin@yourdomain.com No it shouldn't. Listproc pulls the e-mail address from the header of the subscription request, but it gets the subscribers name from the body. "Your Name" should be your *real* name (eg. "Sam Ismail", "Scott McLauchlan", "Bill Gates"). (Oh, and leave out the double quotes.) Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |"Sometimes the need to mess with their heads | | Client Services Division| outweighs the millstone of humiliation." | | University of Canberra |___________Fox_Mulder_"The_X-Files:_Squeeze"_| |scott@cts.canberra.edu.au| http://www.canberra.edu.au/~scott/home.html | From yowza at yowza.com Wed Apr 1 19:26:04 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Quick question In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980402110527.007b3260@cts.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Scott McLauchlan wrote: > No it shouldn't. Listproc pulls the e-mail address from the header of the > subscription request, but it gets the subscribers name from the body. > "Your Name" should be your *real* name (eg. "Sam Ismail", "Scott > McLauchlan", "Bill Gates"). (Oh, and leave out the double quotes.) Hmm, I thought listproc would take the email address from the header if you only specify "subscribe classiccmp", but you can optionally include a different email address (e.g., "subscribe classiccmp joe@foo.com"), and the list maintainer can optionally refuse to accept the fully qualified subscribe command. In any case, from the ClassicCmp FAQ (temporarily housed at http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/faq.txt): 1.1 Mailing List Basics A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution list. 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc@u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 1 19:35:51 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: TRS-80 manuals References: <199804011759.MAA22195@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3522EB77.E96FB05F@cnct.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > > On 29 Mar 98 at 17:24, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > Picked up the following Manuals: > > > > (2) User's Manual for Level 1 -- TRS-80 Micro Computer System > > Line Printer VIII > > Level II Basic Reference Manual > > > > They're available if anyone is interested. ($1 apiece, plus shipping.) > > > I'm in the woods when it comes to the TRS. What does the "Level" refer to ? > Are these useable for a Model II ? If so I'm interested. The "Level" refers to the BASIC ROM that was installed in a TRS-80 Model 1 Keyboard/CPU. Level I was a 4k ROM with very limited features and command set that was fun to play with for a while. Level II was a 12k ROM with a reasonable Microsoft BASIC -- it was necessary if disks were to be added, as the hooks to the disk extensions were in it. Level I couldn't generally access the additional RAM in an Expansion Interface, either. The Model II is a strictly disk-based machine. The onboard ROM is a boot ROM to get an operating system loaded, the BASIC interpreter was entirely RAM resident. Being by Microsoft, Model 1 disk BASIC and Model II BASIC share about 98% of the same features, although the Model II didn't have things like direct access to the video RAM. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:34:38 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Daniel Seagraves' 50k post Message-ID: <19980402013438.23402.qmail@hotmail.com> Speaking of which, when did mailbombing first start? Were generals in the Pentagon bombing each other over ARPANet? >On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Pete Joules wrote: > >> Does a 50k script with no comment count as mailbombing the list >> or am I missing the point somewhere? >> >> Regards >> Pete >> >> > >Nah! He's just elated!!! > - don > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 1 19:57:15 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Quick question In-Reply-To: Scott McLauchlan "Re: Quick question" (Apr 2, 11:05) References: <3.0.32.19980402110527.007b3260@cts.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: <9804020257.ZM1573@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 2, 11:05, Scott McLauchlan wrote: > At 16:05 1/04/98 -0800, Sam Ismail (dastar@wco.com) wrote: > > >Just to clarify... > > > >> Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with no subject and a > >> message with only the line: > >> > >> subscribe classiccmp Your Name > > ^^^^^^^^^ should be yourlogin@yourdomain.com > > No it shouldn't. Listproc pulls the e-mail address from the header of the > subscription request, but it gets the subscribers name from the body. > "Your Name" should be your *real* name (eg. "Sam Ismail", "Scott > McLauchlan", "Bill Gates"). (Oh, and leave out the double quotes.) No, Sam is correct. Here's an extract from the confirmation message I got when I subscribed a while ago -- the message body was SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP pete@dunnington.u-net.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- NAQ (Never Asked Questions) 0.1 How do I subscribe? Subscribing to this list is slightly more challenging than most. Read the instructions below. 1. Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with the line subscribe CLASSICCMP your-address in the body of the message. 2. Send a message to bill@booster.u.washington.edu introducing yourself and explaining why you wish to be added to the list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Wed Apr 1 20:13:03 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Subscribing and unsubscribing (was Re: Quick question) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980402121302.007c29d0@cts.canberra.edu.au> At 19:26 1/04/98 -0600, Doug Yowza (yowza@yowza.com) wrote: >On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Scott McLauchlan wrote: > >> No it shouldn't. Listproc pulls the e-mail address from the header of the >> subscription request, but it gets the subscribers name from the body. >> "Your Name" should be your *real* name (eg. "Sam Ismail", "Scott >> McLauchlan", "Bill Gates"). (Oh, and leave out the double quotes.) > >Hmm, I thought listproc would take the email address from the header if >you only specify "subscribe classiccmp", but you can optionally include a >different email address (e.g., "subscribe classiccmp joe@foo.com"), and >the list maintainer can optionally refuse to accept the fully qualified >subscribe command. [Glances up at X-Listprocessor-Version: header..."8.1 beta". Hmmm] Not exactly. Before version 8.1, if you only specified "subscribe classiccmp" you would get an error message, and if you said "subscribe classiccmp joe@foo.com" it would subscribe you at the address you sent the request from, and assume your real name was joe@foo.com. Depending on how the list is set up, "subscribe classiccmp" will work on version 8.1 and later, however, I'm pretty sure there still is no way to subscribe using an address different from the one you are sending the request from. >In any case, from the ClassicCmp FAQ (temporarily housed at >http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/faq.txt): [Snip] >SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address > > Subscribes you to the list. > >UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address > > Removes you from the list. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Apr 1 21:33:11 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Installing VMS from RL02s In-Reply-To: <199804011635.IAA02152@sqcisco.squeep.com> References: <199804010610.WAA21966@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980401193311.0306b5b0@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Seth: >Try this command: > > $ BACKUP DLA0:[000000]VMS052.B /SAVE_SET DUA0: /LOG This worked! Thanks! Now I need the "mandatory update" volume for VMS 5.2. Hmm, I'll ask on the list! Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Apr 1 21:36:26 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Looking for VMS 5.2 "Mandatory Update" Install Save Set Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980401193626.030685f8@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi All: The title says it all. I've installed VMS 5.2 from 4 RL02s and now the installation procedure wants me to load the "mandatory update" volume. Anyone have one kicking around? I'm not stuck on RL02 format, a TK50/70, 9 track, or even an emailed copy would be fine! Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Apr 1 22:54:12 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Panasonic HHC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3537192c.279483455@hoser> No way! Is that _all_ those things were sold for? We had boxes full of them at the insurance company where I work; they were returned when we went to laptops. They gave away a whole bunch; I ended up with two, complete with printers, but all I've got for software is this stupid ten year old life insurance proposal software in whatever that SNAP thing is. (They used EPROMs stuck on these special plastic carriers with the pins bent underneath, and you just "snapped" them in - wonder if that's where the name came from?) If you figure out anything, let me know. In the meantime, if you're a non-smoker, it looks like you could have gotten a good insurance rating in 1987... On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 02:32:19 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >Can anybody tell me how I program in SNAP? Was there a developer's kit >for this thing? And how about periph's? I've got the printer/cassette >adaptor, but the RS232 module and TV adaptor would be cool. For the >wanna-be insurance salesmen out there, I'll offer you my two insurance >software ROM "capsules" (a $300 value!) as trading fodder :-) > >-- Doug -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Apr 1 23:05:36 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Old Data In-Reply-To: <35208EBA.458763F2@rain.org> References: <199803310158.RAA14551@sqcisco.squeep.com> <35208EBA.458763F2@rain.org> Message-ID: <35391b6b.280059003@hoser> Why did that bother you so much? Maybe it was a compliment. The first drive I got that was over a GB got labeled "Big F***er", and the even larger drive which subsequently replaced it was "Son of BF", and my current drive has the volume label "BF Lives!". Sounds like maybe you could learn a bit about "professionalism" yourself... On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:35:39 -0800, Marvin wrote: >that would be enough. Well, it would have been if they hadn't *really* >pissed me off by putting a label of "Big F" on the drive before it was >returned to me. Long story made short, I recovered all the data off the >drive, broke the passwords, and returned the recovered data to the company >along with a few choice words about the lack of professionalism on the part >of the other "consultant". I think they got the point :). -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 1 23:45:41 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Old Data References: <199803310158.RAA14551@sqcisco.squeep.com> <35208EBA.458763F2@rain.org> <35391b6b.280059003@hoser> Message-ID: <35232605.DDACC686@rain.org> Bill Richman wrote: > Why did that bother you so much? Maybe it was a compliment. The > first drive I got that was over a GB got labeled "Big F***er", and the > even larger drive which subsequently replaced it was "Son of BF", and > my current drive has the volume label "BF Lives!". Sounds like maybe > you could learn a bit about "professionalism" yourself... Your comments only deserve acknowledgement that I saw them. From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 2 01:22:40 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Quick question References: <3522E230.8020D383@navix.net> <3522D023.DBF559D5@bbtel.com> <3522D07C.212F@fwi.com> Message-ID: <35233CBF.1838613D@bbtel.com> Gil Jasmin wrote: > Is the Disney's man name Steve? Nope, Scott Duncan of Disney Imagineering. He's pretty heavy into "pooters" himself...he got the Vector 3 and DEC Rainbow 100+ I had up for adoption. > Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with no subject and a > message with only the line: > > subscribe classiccmp Your Name Thanks > Live Long and Prosper Uh-huh... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au Thu Apr 2 02:25:05 1998 From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980402182504.00831b20@cts.canberra.edu.au> I collect home micros, and I recently acquired a Mac 128K. However, it's been quite heavily modified with contemporary third-party add-ons. It's been taken up to 1M RAM and it's had a SCSI interface installed. The memory has been taken up to 512K by removing the 64K x 1 bit RAM chips and replacing them with 256K x 1 bit chips, plus adding a few discrete components (not hard, considering the 128K and 512K Macs shared the same PC board). It has then been taken up to 1M by adding a third-party 512K RAM expansion board, which plugs into one of the RAM sockets (the chip it displaces being installed onto the expansion board), and is connected to the address decoding by several flying leads. The SCSI interface has been installed by removing the ROM chips, plugging a daughterboard into the empty ROM sockets, and plugging the ROM chips into the daughterboard. The SCSI socket replaces the cover over the battery in the back of the Mac. So, my question is, should I: 1) Leave it as it is; 2) Remove the SCSI interface (easy, just remove the daughter board, take the ROM chips out of it and put them back into the motherboard's ROM sockets); 3) Remove the SCSI interface *and* the 512K RAM daughter board (not *too* hard, desolder the flying leads (taking note of where they go to, just in case I want to reinstall the board), remove the board from the RAM chip's socket, remove the RAM chip from the daughterboard and put it back in the motherboard's now-empty RAM socket); 4) Take it back to original condition (quite difficult, as well as steps 1)and 2) it involves desoldering 16 256K x 1 bit RAM chips, (plus a few discrete components) and soldering in 16 64K x 1 bit RAM chips). What are people's opinions on this? Regards, | Scott McLauchlan |E-Mail: scott@cts.canberra.edu.au| |Administration IT User Support Team|Phone: +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)| | Client Services Division |Post: University of Canberra, | | University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA | ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA. | From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Apr 2 05:18:34 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... Message-ID: Hmm, >> I collect home micros, and I recently acquired a Mac 128K. However, it's >> been quite heavily modified with contemporary third-party add-ons. It's >> been taken up to 1M RAM and it's had a SCSI interface installed. > Well from a preservation point of view, this makes a very interesting machine as it stands - probably fairly unique. Maybe the thing to do would be to collect together a bunch of 64Kx1 chips and keep them safe somewhere so that the machine could easily be restored to original condition (or as close as possible) at some point in the future, if that were necessary. Surely there's still quite a few Mac 128K's around, so they're not an endangered species yet... Just my 2p's worth (or $0.02, depending on which you prefer...) cheers Jules > From mor at crl.com Thu Apr 2 05:42:43 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... References: <3.0.32.19980402182504.00831b20@cts.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: <352379B3.E491F71@crl.com> Scott McLauchlan wrote: > So, my question is, should I: > > 1) Leave it as it is; Me? I'd leave it alone. It sounds like the sort of thing I do to most older machines anyway, and hey! Somebody did it for you. I don't think you're in danger of never running across a clean/stock 128 again, so I don't see any reason to reverse out all this cool hacking. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 2 07:41:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk In-Reply-To: <9803018914.AA891476527@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980402074111.21277a64@intellistar.net> Phillip, Thanks for the info. I'll try to get the whole box full (about 8 or 9 machines). If I do, I'll let you know. $50 for one sounds fine to me. I've never used a RS 102 and it's been years since I used a RS 100 so I don't know what the differences are but I assume the 102 has everything that a 100 does. Joe At 05:15 PM 4/1/98 GMT, you wrote: >David wrote: > >> In a message dated 4/1/98 9:57:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, >> rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: >> >> << I have a chance to buy a box full of Radio Shack model 102 portable >> computers. None have been tested and there are no power supplies with them. >> Does anyone know what voltage and polarity the external power connector >> uses? And if there is any kind of self-test built-in? Can anyone give me an >> idea of what these are worth? >> >> >> shoot, i'd love to have another tandy 102! my ac adaptor for my 102 says 6v dc >> at 400 ma > >I'd love to have one at all! > >Seriously, Joe, if you get a box full, will you be putting some up for >sale? > >> according to the little drawing on the adaptor, the inner part of the plug is >> negative. outer part is positive. not sure what they're worth, but i bought > >That's all I'd need to know. I am quite used to building PSUs on such a >spec. Or less. (Actually I'd look inside to see whether it needs to be >regulated, but 6V seldom does). > >> mine with the accompanying battery operated cassette recorder and owner's >> manual for $25. would love to find the external floppy for it. > >The model 100 I've seen for 100 or more UK pounds over here. I don't >know what additional features were in the 102; I also don't think I >could afford L100. But I'd probably pay $50 US including shipping for a >model 102 without power supply. > >Philip. > >PS I'm back from Taiwan at last. Taiwan really is the most unhackish >place I've been on my travels... But more to the point, I've missed >most of the last 3 weeks on Classiccmp, so I may be ignorant of the >context on some longer-running threads. Please forgive any silly >questions that may arise... > > From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Apr 2 08:41:13 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:07 2005 Subject: Serial Mouse Drivers? Message-ID: <001801bd5e45$66cce3e0$d167bcc1@hotze> Hello. I know that this is semi-off-topic, but does anyone have MS-DOS mouse drivers for a Serial MS 2.0 mouse? I was trying to run some classic DOS based software, which requires a mouse, which was not included because of Windows 95... I tried running it in Windows, I get an error... Ciao, Tim D. Hotze PS-If you could just e-mail them as an attached file to photze@batelco.com.bh ... that would be great. From archive at navix.net Thu Apr 2 10:58:20 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk References: <3.0.1.16.19980402074111.21277a64@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3523C3AB.AD72B2E9@navix.net> Joe: Let me know if you have an extra one for sale, ok? CORD COSLOR Archive@navix.net Joe wrote: > Phillip, > > Thanks for the info. I'll try to get the whole box full (about 8 or 9 > machines). If I do, I'll let you know. $50 for one sounds fine to me. > I've never used a RS 102 and it's been years since I used a RS 100 so I > don't know what the differences are but I assume the 102 has everything > that a 100 does. > > Joe > > At 05:15 PM 4/1/98 GMT, you wrote: > >David wrote: > > > >> In a message dated 4/1/98 9:57:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, > >> rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > >> > >> << I have a chance to buy a box full of Radio Shack model 102 portable > >> computers. None have been tested and there are no power supplies with > them. > >> Does anyone know what voltage and polarity the external power connector > >> uses? And if there is any kind of self-test built-in? Can anyone give > me an > >> idea of what these are worth? >> > >> > >> shoot, i'd love to have another tandy 102! my ac adaptor for my 102 says > 6v dc > >> at 400 ma > > > >I'd love to have one at all! > > > >Seriously, Joe, if you get a box full, will you be putting some up for > >sale? > > > >> according to the little drawing on the adaptor, the inner part of the > plug is > >> negative. outer part is positive. not sure what they're worth, but i > bought > > > >That's all I'd need to know. I am quite used to building PSUs on such a > >spec. Or less. (Actually I'd look inside to see whether it needs to be > >regulated, but 6V seldom does). > > > >> mine with the accompanying battery operated cassette recorder and owner's > >> manual for $25. would love to find the external floppy for it. > > > >The model 100 I've seen for 100 or more UK pounds over here. I don't > >know what additional features were in the 102; I also don't think I > >could afford L100. But I'd probably pay $50 US including shipping for a > >model 102 without power supply. > > > >Philip. > > > >PS I'm back from Taiwan at last. Taiwan really is the most unhackish > >place I've been on my travels... But more to the point, I've missed > >most of the last 3 weeks on Classiccmp, so I may be ignorant of the > >context on some longer-running threads. Please forgive any silly > >questions that may arise... > > > > -- ___________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |___________________________________________________| | \____________________________________________________\| From adept at Mcs.Net Thu Apr 2 09:57:00 1998 From: adept at Mcs.Net (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk In-Reply-To: <3523C3AB.AD72B2E9@navix.net> Message-ID: Me too :) I'd love to add one of these to the collection. Dan BTW -- never start your message to the list with Add, it gets angry. ;) On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Cord Coslor wrote: > Joe: > > Let me know if you have an extra one for sale, ok? > > CORD COSLOR > Archive@navix.net > > Joe wrote: > > > Phillip, > > > > Thanks for the info. I'll try to get the whole box full (about 8 or 9 > > machines). If I do, I'll let you know. $50 for one sounds fine to me. > > I've never used a RS 102 and it's been years since I used a RS 100 so I > > don't know what the differences are but I assume the 102 has everything > > that a 100 does. > > > > Joe > > > > At 05:15 PM 4/1/98 GMT, you wrote: > > >David wrote: > > > > > >> In a message dated 4/1/98 9:57:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > >> rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > > >> > > >> << I have a chance to buy a box full of Radio Shack model 102 portable > > >> computers. None have been tested and there are no power supplies with > > them. > > >> Does anyone know what voltage and polarity the external power connector > > >> uses? And if there is any kind of self-test built-in? Can anyone give > > me an > > >> idea of what these are worth? >> > > >> > > >> shoot, i'd love to have another tandy 102! my ac adaptor for my 102 says > > 6v dc > > >> at 400 ma > > > > > >I'd love to have one at all! > > > > > >Seriously, Joe, if you get a box full, will you be putting some up for > > >sale? > > > > > >> according to the little drawing on the adaptor, the inner part of the > > plug is > > >> negative. outer part is positive. not sure what they're worth, but i > > bought > > > > > >That's all I'd need to know. I am quite used to building PSUs on such a > > >spec. Or less. (Actually I'd look inside to see whether it needs to be > > >regulated, but 6V seldom does). > > > > > >> mine with the accompanying battery operated cassette recorder and owner's > > >> manual for $25. would love to find the external floppy for it. > > > > > >The model 100 I've seen for 100 or more UK pounds over here. I don't > > >know what additional features were in the 102; I also don't think I > > >could afford L100. But I'd probably pay $50 US including shipping for a > > >model 102 without power supply. > > > > > >Philip. > > > > > >PS I'm back from Taiwan at last. Taiwan really is the most unhackish > > >place I've been on my travels... But more to the point, I've missed > > >most of the last 3 weeks on Classiccmp, so I may be ignorant of the > > >context on some longer-running threads. Please forgive any silly > > >questions that may arise... > > > > > > > > > > -- > ___________________________________________________ > | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ > | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | > |---------------------------------------------------| | > | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | > |---------------------------------------------------| | > | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | > |___________________________________________________| | > \____________________________________________________\| > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 2 11:14:29 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk In-Reply-To: <3523C3AB.AD72B2E9@navix.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19980402074111.21277a64@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980402111429.250fd406@intellistar.net> Cord, Will do. I haven't gotten them yet. I should have gotten them when I had a chance! Joe At 08:58 AM 4/2/98 -0800, you wrote: >Joe: > >Let me know if you have an extra one for sale, ok? > >CORD COSLOR >Archive@navix.net > >Joe wrote: > >> Phillip, >> >> Thanks for the info. I'll try to get the whole box full (about 8 or 9 >> machines). If I do, I'll let you know. $50 for one sounds fine to me. >> I've never used a RS 102 and it's been years since I used a RS 100 so I >> don't know what the differences are but I assume the 102 has everything >> that a 100 does. >> >> Joe >> >> At 05:15 PM 4/1/98 GMT, you wrote: >> >David wrote: >> > >> >> In a message dated 4/1/98 9:57:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, >> >> rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: >> >> >> >> << I have a chance to buy a box full of Radio Shack model 102 portable >> >> computers. None have been tested and there are no power supplies with >> them. >> >> Does anyone know what voltage and polarity the external power connector >> >> uses? And if there is any kind of self-test built-in? Can anyone give >> me an >> >> idea of what these are worth? >> >> >> >> >> shoot, i'd love to have another tandy 102! my ac adaptor for my 102 says >> 6v dc >> >> at 400 ma >> > >> >I'd love to have one at all! >> > >> >Seriously, Joe, if you get a box full, will you be putting some up for >> >sale? >> > >> >> according to the little drawing on the adaptor, the inner part of the >> plug is >> >> negative. outer part is positive. not sure what they're worth, but i >> bought >> > >> >That's all I'd need to know. I am quite used to building PSUs on such a >> >spec. Or less. (Actually I'd look inside to see whether it needs to be >> >regulated, but 6V seldom does). >> > >> >> mine with the accompanying battery operated cassette recorder and owner's >> >> manual for $25. would love to find the external floppy for it. >> > >> >The model 100 I've seen for 100 or more UK pounds over here. I don't >> >know what additional features were in the 102; I also don't think I >> >could afford L100. But I'd probably pay $50 US including shipping for a >> >model 102 without power supply. >> > >> >Philip. >> > >> >PS I'm back from Taiwan at last. Taiwan really is the most unhackish >> >place I've been on my travels... But more to the point, I've missed >> >most of the last 3 weeks on Classiccmp, so I may be ignorant of the >> >context on some longer-running threads. Please forgive any silly >> >questions that may arise... >> > >> > > > > >-- > ___________________________________________________ >| Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ >| Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | >|---------------------------------------------------| | >| http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | >|---------------------------------------------------| | >| PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | >|___________________________________________________| | >\____________________________________________________\| > > > From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Thu Apr 2 12:08:34 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980402182504.00831b20@cts.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980402120834.00805c60@pop3.webzone.net> At 06:25 PM 4/2/98 +1000, you wrote: >I collect home micros, and I recently acquired a Mac 128K. However, it's >been quite heavily modified with contemporary third-party add-ons. It's >been taken up to 1M RAM and it's had a SCSI interface installed. [snip] > >| Scott McLauchlan |E-Mail: scott@cts.canberra.edu.au| >|Administration IT User Support Team|Phone: +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)| >| Client Services Division |Post: University of Canberra, | >| University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA | ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA. | > Personally, I am fascinated with "aftermarket" enhancements because they personalize the piece somewhat. This goes back to my first computer, PCjr "Frankenstein." A PCjr with 640K, MS bus rat, parallel port, 10MB disk, 2400 bps USR Courier, running Fido. I would try to grab documentation, marketing materials, etc. for all the add-ons--this would make for some real fun, IMO. Just in case, do as someone else suggested and try to grab all the factory parts that might be missing. -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 2 12:26:11 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... (fwd) Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Scott McLauchlan wrote: > I collect home micros, and I recently acquired a Mac 128K. However, it's > been quite heavily modified with contemporary third-party add-ons. It's > been taken up to 1M RAM and it's had a SCSI interface installed. > > The memory has been taken up to 512K by removing the 64K x 1 bit RAM chips > and replacing them with 256K x 1 bit chips, plus adding a few discrete > components (not hard, considering the 128K and 512K Macs shared the same PC > board). It has then been taken up to 1M by adding a third-party 512K RAM > expansion board, which plugs into one of the RAM sockets (the chip it > displaces being installed onto the expansion board), and is connected to > the address decoding by several flying leads. > > The SCSI interface has been installed by removing the ROM chips, plugging a > daughterboard into the empty ROM sockets, and plugging the ROM chips into > the daughterboard. The SCSI socket replaces the cover over the battery in > the back of the Mac. It sounds like you have a pretty amazing Mac 128K! Why the hell would you want to tear it back down to its puny original configuration? This Mac is a testament to the expandability of a machine that no one thought expandable. LEAVE IT BE! Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 2 11:23:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980402182504.00831b20@cts.canberra.edu.au> from "Scott McLauchlan" at Apr 2, 98 06:25:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2484 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980402/40ba009f/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 2 15:57:35 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: RS 102 In-Reply-To: References: <9803018914.AA891476527@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980402155735.63277234@intellistar.net> At 07:29 PM 4/1/98 +0100, you wrote: >Of course you can just put 4 AA cells in the machine :-) That's too easy! > >> That's all I'd need to know. I am quite used to building PSUs on such a >> spec. Or less. (Actually I'd look inside to see whether it needs to be >> regulated, but 6V seldom does). > >I have a Model 100 Technical Manual, and the external PSU for that >machine is certainly not regulated. It's a typical wall-wart type of >supply. I figures that it was. I just needed to know if it was AC or DC and what polarity. > >The PSU in the M100 is a fairly complicated switching regulator providing >+/-5V from the 6V supply. I would guess the M102 is similar. > >> The model 100 I've seen for 100 or more UK pounds over here. I don't >> know what additional features were in the 102; I also don't think I 100 pounds! Wow! You should buy all of these and resell them! > >IIRC the M102 was a smaller machine that used standard 8K RAM chips >rather than the 4-2K-RAM hybrids used on the M100. Apart from that it was >very similar. Actually the machines are the same size. The PF keys are deeper on the 102 and it has a "System Expansion" port on the back. Other than that it appears to be the same externally. I had so many people asking about the Radio Shack computers that I went back down there and got them. Unfortunately someone else had already beaten me to it and had gotten all of the model 102s but one. But here's what I got: 1) TRS model 100 this one is missing a row of pixels in the display but it's still readable without any problem. It's also missing the name plate on the top left. The missing row of pixels is probably due to a loose connection but I'm not going to fool with it. 2) , 3) & 4) TRS model 100, nothing wrong with any of these three. 5) TRS model 102, perfect and has the black Tandy 102 embossed case. On the outside, this one appears to be the same as the model 100 but it has a "System Expansion" port on the back. 6) An extra case similar to the one on the 102 but this one is marked "Tandy 200" 7) A telephone cable to connect the MODEM in one of these to a standard phone jack. It has a 8 pin DIN plus that fits the MODEM post and two phone cords coming out of it. There is also what appears to be a dummy female connector that fits over the male connector. All of these have ivory colored cases and are in excellent condition and work fine (except for the row of pixels on #1). All of them are clean and have no scratches on the case or displays or any corrosion. I tested all of them on AC power and they all appear to work fine. Most of them still have programs and data files where it looks as if they were being used to track permit requirements for building new houses. I will take $50 plus shipping on the computers ($40 for the one missing the label) and best offer on the extra pieces. Or I will trade for HP computer or calculators (even 9100s :-) Of course, the bigger orders get preference. Joe > >> Philip. > >-tony > > From van at wired.com Thu Apr 2 16:41:37 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Archiving docs In-Reply-To: <3522AF7C.144DC00@bigfoot.com> References: <19980330230317.21602ffc.in@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: Shawn, I think your solution is getting a bit too...involved. Yes...overkill. It is my _understanding_ that the Fotolook "Descreen" function scans the image at your target resolution but then blurs each channel slightly in order to eliminate the pixelization (since accurate technical data from Agfa is *totally* a figment of my rich fantasy life, please realize that I could be dead wrong on this one)...but I digress. An easier solution to do your own descreening (sometimes this works better than the scanner's software), is by scanning at a normal setting (100% sharpness), at a much higher output resolution (4x)...then blur just enough to break the pattern...now reduce the file size to your target resolution and run an unsharp mask. Beautiful. I ran a test for a lores cover scan: 1) scanned @300dpi, blurred, reduced to 72dpi and unsharp masked @75% 2) scanned @72dpi with a descreen set to 175lpi (we print at 150) Since Fotolook automatically sharpens to compensate for the descreening loss, scan 2 was oversharpened and contained some artifacting...scan 1 was gorgeous. van note: Another trick is to actually rotate your image on the scanning bed (like 20? or so) which usually knocks out the moir?...so long as the corners don't get clipped. (I think we should return to the regularly scheduled programming now.) >Well that was my experience with that particular scanning software but I just >want to know how they did it so I can reproduce the results in something >else. > >I was thinking if your CCD has 300 DPI and you scan at say, the dot frequency >of 133 dpi, does it really sample all 300 pixels in an inch and then resample >downwards or does it just sample the CCD pixel that is closest to the dot >being scanned? If it does the former, then scanning at 300 DPI and then >down-converting to 133 DPI in Photoshop should be exactly equivalent; if it >does the latter, then I would expect really bad results because sometimes the >CCD element being sampled falls on a screen dot and sometimes it doesn't. In >reality the dot size is supposed to correspond to the darkness of that color; >so if you had an optical means to sample the entire "cell" consisting of the >screen dot plus the white space around it, the whole cell and nothing but the >cell, then you could get the color right for that cell, but the cells are not >an orthonormal array; the screens are slanted (and to make matters worse, >differently for different colors). So I think the optimal solution might be >to sample at a very very high resolution (many pixels per screen dot), edge >detect the screen dots, use that information to break up the image into cells, >average the darkness for all the dots in each cell, use that color to fill the >entire cell, and then resample that image downwards to the maximum achievable >resolution (whatever that is). As long as screen dots don't overlap you could >even do that separately for each color. I don't know if any existing software >does that. Maybe Fotolook did. Or maybe that's overkill; maybe just a few >samples per screen dot is enough. But I'm pretty sure skipping any of the >CCD's available dots is not a good idea, and I don't know if that's what my >scanner does when I tell it to sample at 133 dpi. (I have an HP IIcx.) >> >> Not to ba a prude...but what on earth does this have to do with the >> discussion regarding the collecting of classic computers? Archiving? > >Not much but it is at least an interesting tangent isn't it? >(Sorry if we're boring anybody.) > >-- > _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com > (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud > __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BMW |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] - ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Apr 2 16:27:40 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980402182504.00831b20@cts.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980402162740.006bd738@pop3.concentric.net> Around here 128k's get trashed all the you should be able to find one for free to $20 and save yourself alot of work with the one you have. At 06:25 PM 4/2/98 +1000, you wrote: >I collect home micros, and I recently acquired a Mac 128K. However, it's >been quite heavily modified with contemporary third-party add-ons. It's >been taken up to 1M RAM and it's had a SCSI interface installed. > >The memory has been taken up to 512K by removing the 64K x 1 bit RAM chips >and replacing them with 256K x 1 bit chips, plus adding a few discrete >components (not hard, considering the 128K and 512K Macs shared the same PC >board). It has then been taken up to 1M by adding a third-party 512K RAM >expansion board, which plugs into one of the RAM sockets (the chip it >displaces being installed onto the expansion board), and is connected to >the address decoding by several flying leads. > >The SCSI interface has been installed by removing the ROM chips, plugging a >daughterboard into the empty ROM sockets, and plugging the ROM chips into >the daughterboard. The SCSI socket replaces the cover over the battery in >the back of the Mac. > >So, my question is, should I: > >1) Leave it as it is; > >2) Remove the SCSI interface (easy, just remove the daughter board, take the > ROM chips out of it and put them back into the motherboard's ROM sockets); > >3) Remove the SCSI interface *and* the 512K RAM daughter board (not *too* >hard, > desolder the flying leads (taking note of where they go to, just in case I > want to reinstall the board), remove the board from the RAM chip's socket, > remove the RAM chip from the daughterboard and put it back in the > motherboard's now-empty RAM socket); > >4) Take it back to original condition (quite difficult, as well as > steps 1)and 2) it involves desoldering 16 256K x 1 bit RAM chips, (plus >a > few discrete components) and soldering in 16 64K x 1 bit RAM chips). > >What are people's opinions on this? > >Regards, > >| Scott McLauchlan |E-Mail: scott@cts.canberra.edu.au| >|Administration IT User Support Team|Phone: +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)| >| Client Services Division |Post: University of Canberra, | >| University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA | ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA. | > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 2 14:41:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: RS 102 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980402155735.63277234@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Apr 2, 98 03:57:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1549 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980402/2b7bcf8e/attachment.ksh From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Apr 2 17:17:28 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980402182504.00831b20@cts.canberra.edu.au> Message-ID: >I collect home micros, and I recently acquired a Mac 128K. However, it's >been quite heavily modified with contemporary third-party add-ons. It's >been taken up to 1M RAM and it's had a SCSI interface installed. Cool! >The memory has been taken up to 512K by removing the 64K x 1 bit RAM chips >and replacing them with 256K x 1 bit chips, plus adding a few discrete >components (not hard, considering the 128K and 512K Macs shared the same PC >board). It has then been taken up to 1M by adding a third-party 512K RAM >expansion board, which plugs into one of the RAM sockets (the chip it >displaces being installed onto the expansion board), and is connected to >the address decoding by several flying leads. A most interesting upgrade, I have several of those liittle add-on boards to allow that upgrade. Not sure what to do with them, though. Just waiting for a bunch of 128K's to come my way, I guess... >The SCSI interface has been installed by removing the ROM chips, plugging a >daughterboard into the empty ROM sockets, and plugging the ROM chips into >the daughterboard. The SCSI socket replaces the cover over the battery in >the back of the Mac. Also very interesting. I've never quite figured them out. >So, my question is, should I: >1) Leave it as it is; Definitley, unless(or until) it stops working, and then you have the fun job of figuring out which one is bad... >2) Remove the SCSI interface (easy, just remove the daughter board, take the > ROM chips out of it and put them back into the motherboard's ROM sockets); The SCSI is far too useful to remove unless broken... >3) Remove the SCSI interface *and* the 512K RAM daughter board (not *too* >hard, > desolder the flying leads (taking note of where they go to, just in case I > want to reinstall the board), remove the board from the RAM chip's socket, > remove the RAM chip from the daughterboard and put it back in the > motherboard's now-empty RAM socket); Same as before for the SCSI part, and that extra RAM is very useful unless you have some VERY old Mac software sitting around(getting a 512K running isn't too hard, but the 128K in stock config is ALMOST useless) >4) Take it back to original condition (quite difficult, as well as > steps 1)and 2) it involves desoldering 16 256K x 1 bit RAM chips, (plus > a few discrete components) and soldering in 16 64K x 1 bit RAM chips). Too hard, and unless you have some very nice, expensive equipment to help, it is more likely you will damage the board and/or chips. Don't forget to remove the extra logic chip... I have two or three 512K logic boards with similair upgrades, and I have what seems like millions of flyback transformers, disposable 3M static wrist straps and KillyClip(?? I don't remember what it's called. But I have tons of parts for them... a buncha empty PCB's, a bunch of clips... no complete ones, though) type stuff. Very strange collection of parts, all stuffed away in boxes, still waiting to be sorted. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Apr 2 19:33:20 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Neural Networks Message-ID: <19980403013321.13794.qmail@hotmail.com> I know we discussed this earlier, so the replies can be private, if you wish, but it seems that some people here are familiar with the field. My question is this. My understanding of neural networks is a bunch of neurons, all more or less randomly connected, with one output and an arbitrary number of inputs; if the sum of the inputs equals a certain predetermined level, the neuron sends a pulse on the output, to trigger other neurons. Could someone please complicate the picture for me? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 2 19:48:30 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Old Data In-Reply-To: <01bd5d4a$acce3480$104e53c2@MIS2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> Message-ID: OK, it's probably legal to sift through Old Data, and 97% of it is boring (which probably mirrors real life), but the original question was about ethics. If this was *your* Old Data, you probably wouldn't want it in the hands of one of the Dumpster Divers on this list, so how about a Classic Computer Collector's Code of Conduct and Helpful Hints for Computer Donors? The CCCCC: * I'll do my damnest to find a home for any orphaned classic computer. * If I already have a clean example of a particular classic computer, I'll offer newly spotted machines to other collectors before I hoard them for myself. * I will attempt to keep my machines in working order and will refrain from turning them into fish tanks or putting them in acrylic frames. * I'll return or destroy any personal data I find on a machine I acquire. * I'll respect software and publication copyrights. * I'll actively promote ethical collecting and will aid mere users in the decomissioning of their machines. Helpful Hints for Mere Users: * Backup your data before giving it away. * Delete all personal data and overwrite the data with nonsense (e.g, from MS-DOS: "TYPE FOO >> FOO" will fill the empty clusters with the contents of FOO). * If you have an old hard disk, park it before shutting down. * Remove floppies from the drives, and leave the drives open. However, if you have the original cardboard floppy protector, stick it in the drive and close it. * Include all system software, manuals, and cables in a zip lock bag and rubber-band them together with the machine. * Do not use spindle, mutilate, or put any sticky stuff on your machine. * Pack the computer into a box, and use nearly as much packing material as you would if you were going to ship it. * Get a receipt for your donation. Comments? -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 2 19:57:16 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: RS 102 References: Message-ID: <352441FC.6F1536B3@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > >IIRC the M102 was a smaller machine that used standard 8K RAM chips > > >rather than the 4-2K-RAM hybrids used on the M100. Apart from that it was > > >very similar. > > > > Actually the machines are the same size. The PF keys are deeper on the > > I thought the M102 was thinner. I've actually never seen one, although I > have a M100 which I'm still using... Wonderful machine for text entry. > > > 102 and it has a "System Expansion" port on the back. Other than that it > > appears to be the same externally. > > The 'System Expansion' connector is the 8085 bus + a few extra lines. > It's brought out to a 40 pin DIL socket on the bottom of the M100 under a > flap. AFAIK the pinouts are 'equivalent' in the sense that a piece of IDC > ribbon cable with the appropriate connector plugged into either machine > will have the same signals. The 102 was about 3/8" thinner than the 100 as I recall, and about a pound lighter. I always thought they felt a bit flimsyas a result of that. The 102 expansion bus was definitely an improvement over that of the 100, especially if you were inclined to connect it to the disk video system -- even with the ZIF socket, the end of that cable was all too fragile. -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 2 19:59:59 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Neural Networks In-Reply-To: <19980403013321.13794.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > I know we discussed this earlier, so the replies can be private, if > you wish, but it seems that some people here are familiar with the > field. Ah, my favorite Off Topic subject! > My question is this. My understanding of neural networks is a bunch > of neurons, all more or less randomly connected, with one output > and an arbitrary number of inputs; if the sum of the inputs equals > a certain predetermined level, the neuron sends a pulse on the output, > to trigger other neurons. > Could someone please complicate the picture for me? Are you asking about wet and squishy neural nets or artificial neural nets? There's nothing random about the connections of either in a *functioning* net, but a learning net can have somewhat random connections. The "summation" isn't linear in either type of net, and the trigger can be a frequency threshold as well as an amplitude threshold. Of course, real neural nets are *much* more complicated and are affected by food, sleep, and neuro-transmitter analogues like LSD. -- Doug From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 2 20:25:19 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Neural Networks In-Reply-To: "Max Eskin" "Neural Networks" (Apr 2, 17:33) References: <19980403013321.13794.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <9804030325.ZM8175@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 2, 17:33, Max Eskin wrote: > Subject: Neural Networks > I know we discussed this earlier, so the replies can be private, if > you wish, but it seems that some people here are familiar with the > field. > > My question is this. My understanding of neural networks is a bunch > of neurons, all more or less randomly connected, with one output > and an arbitrary number of inputs; if the sum of the inputs equals > a certain predetermined level, the neuron sends a pulse on the output, > to trigger other neurons. > Could someone please complicate the picture for me? Sure :-) What you describe is not quite right; they're not usually totally randomly interconnected. If there are lots of neurons, they're usually in three layers. At least, for a "conventional" multilayer network, they are. There are various methods for adjusting the weights on the perceptron inputs, and propagating changes backwards through the network, in order to "teach" it. It's a slow process, involving a lot of repetition, large amounts of test data, and various formulae to do the back-propagation and also to determine when you've done enough teaching (which basically means deciding when you've minimised the errors). If you overteach such networks, the performance can actually decline. You can also build a single-layer network with just one neuron (they're usually called perceptrons, BTW). However, single-layer networks are restricted to distinguishing linearly-separable entities. In other words, if you plotted a scatter chart with all the possible inputs represented as dots, you could separate them into two types just by drawing a straight line through the chart. If you have more than two types, then more lines. More than two input criteria, more dimensions (and use planes etc instead of lines). The problem is, not all of the world is like that. A single layer network can't separate types if they aren't arranged in an appropriate way -- the simplest non-linearly-solvable example is the XOR problem: two types, but arranged like the pattern of 1s and 0s in an XOR truth table: 1 0 0 1 You can't draw a single line that separates the 0s from the 1s; so by definition they're not linearly seperable. You can easily do this with a multilayer network, of course. Then there are Hopfield networks. All the neurons are connected to all the others in a Hopfield network. The feedback equations get quite interesting. And Kohonen networks. You don't teach them; they learn. *What* they learn may take some figuring out... And binary networks like the one I was working with recently. You should be able to find some information about that on our Department's web server (and several other places too). http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/arch/neural/ Have I confused you yet? :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 2 20:46:03 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Serial Mouse Drivers? References: <001801bd5e45$66cce3e0$d167bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <35244D6A.DEC4E269@rain.org> Hotze wrote: > Hello. I know that this is semi-off-topic, but does anyone have MS-DOS > mouse drivers for a Serial MS 2.0 mouse? I was trying to run some classic > > DOS based software, which requires a mouse, which was not included because > > of Windows 95... I tried running it in Windows, I get an error... The last time I looked (a year or two ago!), the MS Mouse driver was available at oak.oakland.edu and probably other simtel mirror sites. I don't know if it was on there by accident or because it was okay to distribute that way. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Apr 2 16:05:33 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Serial Mouse Drivers? In-Reply-To: <35244D6A.DEC4E269@rain.org> Message-ID: <199804030258.VAA25223@mail.cgocable.net> SNIP! To how good the 2.0 M$mouse compatiable with mouse drivers, I used that IBM mouse driver that supports either: busmouse, serial and PS/2. OLD! but very tiny 10K and rock-solid driver on that one and worked. But I hate 2.0x at any rate due to comfort and requires stupid frequent cleaning! So often every week or so where I have not did one for weeks on my mitsumi and much better in comfort of holding that mouse. Just a comment. Jason D. PS: i have the busmouse msmouse version, (dovebar shape with feather light switches). Tis' one is nice too but too bad fouled up in 2.xx versions. Don't brother with cheapo mouses that has brass rollers (some usually are chromed) Rubber and human oil/acid/sweat salts corrodes those very quick in at least a year or so. Either Stainless or smooth-mirror not flat/matte (that causes rapid build up) plastic rollers. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 2 21:03:01 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... (fwd) Message-ID: <9e4d3ea2.35245167@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-02 13:28:02 EST, you write: << > I collect home micros, and I recently acquired a Mac 128K. However, it's > been quite heavily modified with contemporary third-party add-ons. It's > been taken up to 1M RAM and it's had a SCSI interface installed. >> whenever i find a computer that's been modified, i leave it as is. for example, i have a mac512 with a internal hard disk called a hyperdrive. quite a clever setup and i also have an apple ][+ with an aftermarket encoder board which gave autorepeat, macros, type ahead, and all the characters that the //e could do. i also have a mac IIcx with a 68040 processor board. i keep all modifications as they themselves are worth as much as the computer itself and provide personality to the machine. david From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Apr 2 21:31:19 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: serial port buffers Message-ID: I guess this is a little off-topic, but I'm not exactly sure where to ask about this... Anyone know anything about the Intellicom Mega-Link four port buffer? Four buttons and six LED's on the front, a row of eight 256k RAM chips and three rows of sockets for more RAM, and the three DB-25 and a 36-pin centronics connector on the back. Any ideas on how to hook it up? I'm gessing there was either a special cable for it(centronics to serial port) or maybe it was designed to attach to a serial port card or something... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From danjo at xnet.com Fri Apr 3 01:07:54 1998 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: serial port buffers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, John Rollins wrote: > I guess this is a little off-topic, but I'm not exactly sure where to ask > about this... Anyone know anything about the Intellicom Mega-Link four port > buffer? Four buttons and six LED's on the front, a row of eight 256k RAM > chips and three rows of sockets for more RAM, and the three DB-25 and a > 36-pin centronics connector on the back. Any ideas on how to hook it up? > I'm gessing there was either a special cable for it(centronics to serial > port) or maybe it was designed to attach to a serial port card or > something... Sounds like a printer buffer/share device. Many used to be used to share a printer using the mode command to change your printer to a serial port and then when you printed - it stored it if someone else was already using the printer. Some used buttons and some used special codes to switch the active input port. BC From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Apr 3 06:08:07 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: big $$$ PAID for 8" floppy Message-ID: <199804031203.HAA17974@mail.wincom.net> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc, prb@students.cs.mu.oz.au (P. Bocchi) wrote: >I work for a company who needs to extract information from several >8 inch floppy disks and put the info onto 3.5 inch disks. >If anyone is able to do this, or is able to point me in the right >direction there could be some good financial rewards. >thanks. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 3 05:32:36 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Neural Networks In-Reply-To: pete@indy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: Neural Networks" (Apr 3, 2:25) References: <19980403013321.13794.qmail@hotmail.com> <9804030325.ZM8175@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9804031232.ZM14076@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Oops! Apologies to those who weren't interested. Although neural nets go back a long way, they're not classic computers, and I thought this was being sent to Max, not the list. On Apr 3, 2:25, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Subject: Re: Neural Networks > On Apr 2, 17:33, Max Eskin wrote: > > Subject: Neural Networks -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 3 07:41:06 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: big $$$ PAID for 8" floppy In-Reply-To: <199804031203.HAA17974@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <13344851941.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [8" <> 3.5" conversion] I may be able to do that... I have a working PDP-11 that handles 8" disks. I can read a few sector formats... If you can tell me what system the disk was generated on, I can probably transfer the files. If it's an IBM System/34 disk, I can transfer it surely, I have a 34 in working order. ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 3 07:42:12 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: big $$$ PAID for 8" floppy In-Reply-To: <199804031203.HAA17974@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <13344852140.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Dammit!] Ignore that... ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Apr 3 08:04:10 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70 Available... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980323091626.00787f44@teal.csn.net> from "Jack Harper" at Mar 23, 98 09:16:26 am Message-ID: <9804031404.AA00822@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980403/9f93abd4/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 3 11:40:02 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Zendex Computer Message-ID: I found a really neat computer the other day. Its made by a company called Zendex circa 1980. It's an 8085 multi-bus machine. Inside it has the processor board, a disk controller, an I/O board, and a parallel interface daughter-board bolted to the back, but which is connected to the system bus by way of a ribbon cable. The front panel consists of 8 interrupt and one reset switch. A very unique system, in that I've never seen one or even heard of the company before, but nothing special. However, the neat thing about this computer is that the company that makes it is still around and in fact is right around the corner from where I work! When I first examined the computer, it had a label with the company's address: 6680 Sierra Ct in Dublin, California. I went there a couple days ago and they are in almost the exact same spot (one address over now). The slogan embossed on their front window reads "International Manufacturer of Microcomputers Since 1979". I went inside, explained who I was and why I was there, and asked if there was anyone I could speak to about the system to get information (and hopefully documentation) on it. I was told to call back as everyone was in a meeting so I'll be bringing the system by today to bug them. I finally had a chance to open it up last night. One of the neater things is that the front panel circuit board has imprinted on it "Made in Dublin". Now, the reason this is quaint is because, although Dublin is part of the "Bay Area", its not by any means considered a part of the "Silicon Valley". So "Made in Dublin" I think is a cute little acknowledgement of the fact that the company was removed from the main hi-tech bustle of that era. This particular area where I'm at is not foreign to significant computer companies as Processor Technology (makers of the Sol-20) made their headquarters just a mile away in Pleasanton, California. It's nice discovering that makers of classic computers used to be right in your backyard. It's even nicer when they're still around so you can go bug them for information. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Apr 3 11:56:03 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Zendex Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I havent heard about those folks since 1982. I was just starting to work at Diablo Systems. We tested Daisy Wheel printers with a Multibus based system and so we all had Intel MDS system in which to build code on. We did have one Zendex based system. It held it's own among the crowd. They all ran Isis from which we built 8085 and 8086 code. We programed the 8085 in assembler and used plm-86 for the 8086. Ahh the memories (16K if I remember correctly) George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > I found a really neat computer the other day. Its made by a company > called Zendex circa 1980. It's an 8085 multi-bus machine. Inside it has > the processor board, a disk controller, an I/O board, and a parallel > interface daughter-board bolted to the back, but which is connected to the > system bus by way of a ribbon cable. The front panel consists of 8 > interrupt and one reset switch. > > A very unique system, in that I've never seen one or even heard of the > company before, but nothing special. However, the neat thing about this > computer is that the company that makes it is still around and in fact is > right around the corner from where I work! When I first examined the > computer, it had a label with the company's address: 6680 Sierra Ct in > Dublin, California. I went there a couple days ago and they are in almost > the exact same spot (one address over now). The slogan embossed on their > front window reads "International Manufacturer of Microcomputers Since > 1979". I went inside, explained who I was and why I was there, and asked > if there was anyone I could speak to about the system to get information > (and hopefully documentation) on it. I was told to call back as everyone > was in a meeting so I'll be bringing the system by today to bug them. > > I finally had a chance to open it up last night. One of the neater things > is that the front panel circuit board has imprinted on it "Made in > Dublin". Now, the reason this is quaint is because, although Dublin is > part of the "Bay Area", its not by any means considered a part of the > "Silicon Valley". So "Made in Dublin" I think is a cute little > acknowledgement of the fact that the company was removed from the main > hi-tech bustle of that era. This particular area where I'm at is not > foreign to significant computer companies as Processor Technology (makers > of the Sol-20) made their headquarters just a mile away in Pleasanton, > California. It's nice discovering that makers of classic computers used > to be right in your backyard. It's even nicer when they're still around > so you can go bug them for information. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 3 12:10:53 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Another RL02 question... Message-ID: <13344901052.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Do I have to program a seek to switch heads? I notice there's a head bit that can be set during the SEEK command... Can I just specify the head during a WRITE command, or do I have to seek to switch the head? ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Apr 3 12:28:59 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 2, 98 06:23:09 pm Message-ID: <9804031828.AA11455@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980403/3bb426e2/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Apr 3 12:25:49 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980402100241.3ca73ece@ricochet.net> At 06:25 PM 4/2/98 +1000, you wrote: >I collect home micros, and I recently acquired a Mac 128K. However, it's >been quite heavily modified with contemporary third-party add-ons. It's [...] >1) Leave it as it is; I'll vote for this. My logic is: a) it's an interesting specimen as is, displaying the ingenuity and constant striving for performance that the computer industry has had since day 1. b) you can always remove the extras later. a) has it's merits, but wouldn't be my main motivation. b) on the other hand, would be reason enough. If nothing is being harmed, don't do anything now that you could do later. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Fri Apr 3 13:35:31 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Another RL02 question... In-Reply-To: <13344901052.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 3, 98 10:10:53 am Message-ID: <199804031935.OAA18237@shell.monmouth.com> > > Do I have to program a seek to switch heads? I notice there's a head bit > that can be set during the SEEK command... > Can I just specify the head during a WRITE command, or do I have to seek to switch the head? I may be wrong, but I thought the RL01/RL02 needed a seek to even switch heads to guarantee the #0 and #1 head were on cyl when reading/writing. Anyone else have any recollections/driver sources? Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 3 14:00:01 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Another RL02 question... Message-ID: <199804032000.AA21977@world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980323091626.00787f44@teal.csn.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980403115729.00d56058@teal.csn.net> At 06:04 4/3/98 -0800, you wrote: >> I had a chance to take a look on the backside of the giant box hoping to >> find a model number type thing -- nothing there at all... >> >> Looks like I will have to open it up and take a peek to really determine >> its true identity... > >Did you ever get around to doing this? > >I just unloaded two 11/70 systems after a 3000-mile move. They >weigh just a little under one ton each, and boy am I sore! > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > Hello Tim... I will try to do that over the weekend. A ton -- now that's a Computer. Regards Jack --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper Bank Systems 2000, Inc. 303-277-1892 Golden, Colorado USA "21st Century Financial Applications" Optical Cards for Bank, EBT, and Medical Applications Visit our Web Page: http://www.bs2000.com/talos (Last Update: 970902) --------------------------------------------------------------------- From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Fri Apr 3 14:36:00 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Another RL02 question... In-Reply-To: <199804032000.AA21977@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 3, 98 03:00:01 pm Message-ID: <199804032036.PAA15301@shell.monmouth.com> > > > > Head 0/1 are on opposite sides of the platter so they will always be on > the same cylinder. So there are 512 cylinders of two heads, 40 sectors > of 256 bytes per track (one head/side of a cylinder). > If my memory is correct: Not if the alignment is off, since the embedded servo will not check until the head is selected and then it will notice it's not on track. I may be wrong. It's a while since aligning RL02's with toggle in's. Anyone got the theory of ops on one? > There are a lot of ways to organize that physical layout. > > Allison > Bill Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Apr 3 14:47:34 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Neural Networks Message-ID: <19980403204734.13917.qmail@hotmail.com> I am talking about either. In truth, I am interested in AI, whose goal is to approach the functionings of the brain. So, whatever features each shares, or differes in is fine. But I suppose that "idealized" networks are what I mean, that is ones in a purely mathematical space. For one thing, how are the connections made if not randomly? I thought it was essentially based on the closest free neuron. What kind of summation is it if not linear? Do you mean that if the threshold is 5, 4 is more than to times closer than 2? What does that mean, if anything? >> a certain predetermined level, the neuron sends a pulse on the output, >> to trigger other neurons. >> Could someone please complicate the picture for me? > >Are you asking about wet and squishy neural nets or artificial neural >nets? There's nothing random about the connections of either in a >*functioning* net, but a learning net can have somewhat random >connections. The "summation" isn't linear in either type of net, and the >trigger can be a frequency threshold as well as an amplitude threshold. > >Of course, real neural nets are *much* more complicated and are affected >by food, sleep, and neuro-transmitter analogues like LSD. > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Apr 3 15:22:26 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Network cards Message-ID: <19980403212227.20639.qmail@hotmail.com> I recently found a PS/2 MOdel 70. Does anyone have an Ethernet card for it, that has a coaxial cable connector and that could be sold to me for not-too-much? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 3 17:48:01 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Zendex Message-ID: Well, I called over to Zendex today to inquire about the system I found and talked to a sales engineer. He's going to try to dig up some sales brochures and stuff for me. On an interesting note, he began drilling me on my knowledge of Multi-bus (of which I have none) and then explained to me that they still have a market for the old systems and boards and they are in need of someone technically competent with Multi-bus to hire on a consulting basis. What they need is someone who knows Multi-bus, CIM-bus and ISBX modules for testing and assembly. They need someone who knows enough to assemble the boards from schematics they still have lying around and to test the boards' functionality. They currently don't have anyone on staff who has expertise in this older technology, so they would like to find someone young, old or in between to hire on as a consultant to do this work (he recalled a radio program on NPR that we both heard recently about older technology workers having difficulty finding work as they are being superceded by younger, more "energetic" workers who work for less pay). I told him I'd put the word out for him as a favor (and also so that he'll feel obligated to give me stuff). The Company is Zendex Corporation in Dublin, California. Their phone number is (925) 828-3000 and you want to ask for Howard Czapla. I'd appreciate if you could also pass along to me the name of any prospects you refer. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 3 15:54:52 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... In-Reply-To: <9804031828.AA11455@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Apr 3, 98 10:28:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1558 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980403/0577e5aa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 3 16:16:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Another RL02 question... In-Reply-To: <199804031935.OAA18237@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Apr 3, 98 02:35:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980403/3c76b32d/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Fri Apr 3 19:28:19 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: big $$$ PAID for 8" floppy References: <13344851941.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <35258CB3.9356C1C6@cnct.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > [8" <> 3.5" conversion] > > I may be able to do that... I have a working PDP-11 that handles 8" disks. > I can read a few sector formats... > If you can tell me what system the disk was generated on, I can probably > transfer the files. > > If it's an IBM System/34 disk, I can transfer it surely, I have a 34 in working > order. And if it was generated on a Tandy/Radio Shack System I can definitely handle it -- and CP/M as well. The problem with these vague requests is that if the requestor doesn't know what it came from, he probably doesn't deserve the information. As opposed to the many honest threads we've had on conversion between TRS-80, Apple, Commode, Atari, Kaypro (and other 5.25 CP/M formats), etc. Why doesn't the requestor know where it came from? Is he a government agent who stole the data from a "suspect" (In .au now, probably wants to read the records of a gun retailer to track down the customers)? -- Ward Griffiths Dylan: How many years must some people exist, before they're allowed to be free? WDG3rd: If they "must" exist until they're "allowed", they'll never be free. From erd at infinet.com Fri Apr 3 20:35:25 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Seeking info on CS-1 (3rd party QBUS SCSI) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 3, 98 10:54:52 pm Message-ID: <199804040235.VAA02707@user2.infinet.com> I recently got my hands on a SCSI card from a friend, apparently a CS-1. It has a logo that looks kinda like a wavy curtain. I forget if that's Emulex or Systems Industries or what. Its dual-height card with lots of unlabelled jumpers. I can go get it, if anyone thinks they know what it is but needs something described in detail. Thanks, -ethan From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 3 20:47:11 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: big $$$ PAID for 8" floppy References: <13344851941.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> <35258CB3.9356C1C6@cnct.com> Message-ID: <35259F2E.5055FE76@bbtel.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > [8" <> 3.5" conversion] > > > > I may be able to do that... I have a working PDP-11 that handles 8" disks. > And if it was generated on a Tandy/Radio Shack System I can definitely > handle it -- and CP/M as well. > > The problem with these vague requests is that if the requestor doesn't > know what it came from, he probably doesn't deserve the information. > As opposed to the many honest threads we've had on conversion between > TRS-80, Apple, Commode, Atari, Kaypro (and other 5.25 CP/M formats), > etc. Why doesn't the requestor know where it came from? Is he a > government agent who stole the data from a "suspect" (In .au now, > probably wants to read the records of a gun retailer to track down > the customers)? I'm sure anyone involved in this sort of "governmental" influence has plenty of places to have the data swapped and put on a format that can be read. This is probably someone that doesn't have access to an 8" drive and not a clue by the label what it contains. They probably found the disks laying in a box of giveaway stuff somewhere. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Fri Apr 3 20:56:18 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: Another RL02 question... In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 3, 98 11:16:58 pm Message-ID: <199804040256.VAA29852@shell.monmouth.com> > > > I may be wrong, but I thought the RL01/RL02 needed a seek to even switch > > heads to guarantee the #0 and #1 head were on cyl when reading/writing. > > > > Anyone else have any recollections/driver sources? > > According to the RL tech manual... > > Disk Address Register During Read or Write Data Command > --- > ... > Bit 6 Head Select Indicates which head (disk surface) is to be selected. > A 1 indicates the lower head, a 0 the upper head. The > correct track (_head_ and cylinder) must have been > previously selected by a seek. > > > I've just looked in the RL01 printset (the RL02 must be similar), and the > head select signal comes from a register that only seems to be loaded on > a seek command. So you _do_ need to do a 'seek' to change heads. > > > > > > > Bill > > Hope that helps > > -tony > I seemed to remember that from my head alignment days... Bill ex-DEC Field Service with hazy (but not completely gone) memory. +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Fri Apr 3 21:01:33 1998 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:08 2005 Subject: To restore or not to restore... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Apr 1998 15:17:28 PST." Message-ID: <199804040301.VAA22907@mathcs.rhodes.edu.> In message , rexstout@uswest.net writes : >>I collect home micros, and I recently acquired a Mac 128K. However, it's >>been quite heavily modified with contemporary third-party add-ons. It's >>been taken up to 1M RAM and it's had a SCSI interface installed. >Cool! > ............. > >>So, my question is, should I: >>1) Leave it as it is; >Definitley, unless(or until) it stops working, and then you have the fun >job of figuring out which one is bad... I'll add my 2 cents worth supporting the idea that it's best left as is, but I'd like to add a little different perspective. All of the hardware and software I've designed has been designed with the intention that it be used. Now, often it has been used in different ways than what I intended. I remember one quick hack I did for myself in college that people never seemed to let die the death it should have. On the other hand, the last project I did for the last place I worked never saw the light of day; the company closed about a week before we were to go into field trials. The point is that I don't know of any engineers that design products to have them put on a shelf to be looked at as some pristine treasure. I, and most that I know, would love to see our work built on by others who extend and enhance the usability of those designs. Brian L. Stuart From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 3 21:12:14 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Video capture Message-ID: <3525A50D.BE0F72EA@bbtel.com> Anyone have an excess video capture card that they might want to sell or trade for? It doesn't matter if it's VLB, IS or MCA but I would like it to be a color capture, preferably in real time (so I could capture frames). It should also be as complete as possible (manuals, software, etc). I can get a "Snappy" pretty cheap but figured I'd find a good capture card if possible before I thought about going into all of this forst. It's a whim thing, not a definite need. I just figured it's time to expand the I/O that the machine is capable of, and maybe start capturing video clips to use in training videos/software. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 3 20:59:03 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Another RL02 question... In-Reply-To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter "Re: Another RL02 question..." (Apr 3, 15:36) References: <199804032036.PAA15301@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <9804040359.ZM14799@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 3, 15:36, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > At 03:57 PM 4/2/98, you wrote: > Actually the machines are the same size. The PF keys are deeper on the Um, no... The 102 is thinner than the 100. That's one of the photos I took t'other day for my m102 page (getting 'em developed this week, then gotta scan them (gotta un-bury the scanner first), then get all the data files ready...) I'll post the pictures as soon as I get them scanned. (P.S., for more images than you can get to properly, check out -- you'll see the directory listing of all the images I have so far.) > 7) A telephone cable to connect the MODEM in one of these to a standard >phone jack. It has a 8 pin DIN plus that fits the MODEM post and two phone >cords coming out of it. There is also what appears to be a dummy female >connector that fits over the male connector. The idea was to be able to leave it in place: Wall|=--------.----------=|phone | m100 If the m100 was connected, the phone was not. The dummy female connector simply shorted the appropriate wires so the phone would work again. > I will take $50 plus shipping on the computers ($40 for the one missing >the label) and best offer on the extra pieces. Or I will trade for HP Since I have 3 m100's, a m102, and 2 NEC 8201a's, I'll let other take advantage of this... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Apr 3 22:03:16 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980403113729.420756de@ricochet.net> At 07:48 PM 4/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >* I'll return or destroy any personal data I find on a machine I acquire. change to: ...acquire, keeping it in the strictest confidence should I find it necessary to view it. or something like that. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 3 22:17:53 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: big $$$ PAID for 8" floppy In-Reply-To: <35258CB3.9356C1C6@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > The problem with these vague requests is that if the requestor doesn't > know what it came from, he probably doesn't deserve the information. Allow me to be blunt (like I need to ask) but this is a most assanine and elitist attitude to take towards those requesting help with old hardware. I would hope that we, being folks who possess unique knowledge of obsolete computers, would harbor more helpful attitudes than the one exhibited above. > etc. Why doesn't the requestor know where it came from? Is he a > government agent who stole the data from a "suspect" (In .au now, > probably wants to read the records of a gun retailer to track down > the customers)? Gee, why not ask and find out before making wild-assed assumptions like this? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Apr 3 22:28:00 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Old Data In-Reply-To: <35232605.DDACC686@rain.org> References: <199803310158.RAA14551@sqcisco.squeep.com> <35208EBA.458763F2@rain.org> <35391b6b.280059003@hoser> <35232605.DDACC686@rain.org> Message-ID: <3541724d.433372907@hoser> I guess my response should then be "Your comments acknowledging my comments only deserve acknowledgement of your acknowledgement." On Wed, 01 Apr 1998 21:45:41 -0800, you wrote: >Your comments only deserve acknowledgement that I saw them. -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 3 23:47:27 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Old Data References: <3.0.16.19980403113729.420756de@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3525C96E.3165B1CF@bbtel.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > At 07:48 PM 4/2/98 -0600, you wrote: > >* I'll return or destroy any personal data I find on a machine I acquire. > > change to: > > ...acquire, keeping it in the strictest confidence should I find it > necessary to view it. > > or something like that. > More like...if the person(s) that ditched the computer in whatever form didn't feel the need to safeguard the information prior to release of their personal/corporate property, then it's of no reason to follow through with any protection of data/software contained on the machine or disks. If you buy a camcorder at a consignment or pawn shop and the last owners left a tape of their after-hours playtime in the camcorder, is it my responsibility to erase, safeguard or return it? I think not. I feel the same should apply to personal or business computers. I do however try to reclaim any unsupported or obsolete software so that it might be reinstalled upon rework of the machine. I also try to make a backup on floppy for that machine in case the new owner(s) should require a reinstallation. Some may say that this is a "shady" or "gray" area of the license, but if the company is long gone I feel their license also is the same. Just my opinion...like they say though - "opinions are like buttholes...everyone has one and they usually stink" Roger: Very nice page of your collection. A few more pics of each item and it should become a very informative source for those interested in the world of the obsolete (the computers, not you). -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sethm at loomcom.com Sat Apr 4 02:32:38 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: IMSAI woes Message-ID: <199804040832.AAA02729@u1.netgate.net> Hi all, Well, I've got some good news, and I've got some bad news. The good news is that I've finally had my IMSAI 8080 sent out to me from Connecticut! It's in my "workshop" (a.k.a. the Garage) right now. The bad news is... my parents, god bless 'em -- They really didn't know any better, and it's partially my fault for not getting it shipped out to me sooner -- well, they had the poor thing stored, along with my BYTE and Dr. Dobbs collection, in an outdoor shed. Although largely protected from the elements, this poor sad little IMSAI has endured two New England summers followed by two New England winters in a non-climate-controlled room. Great. The practical upshot of this is that it's not doing so well. I need help :) The power supply seems to be worst off of everything. The boards, although needing to be cleaned of some spots of mildew, seem mostly OK. Possibly a few tiny rust spots -- I'd say 100% of the chips are replacable by easily-found parts, either period pieces or newer pieces. But probably 99% of the chips won't need replacing. They seem to be doing very well. I have two Cromemco ZPU boards, so even if one has some bad parts, I should be able to take spares from the other. But that power supply... eek. The transformer is covered in a thick layer of rust, and the whole thing just looks dirty and mildewed. I think the best course of action now would be to desolder every component of the power supply and build a new one -- sadly, losing a bit of IMSAI authenticity in the process. Oh well... Say, does anyone know where I can get a pair of 95000uF 15VDC electrolytic capacitors? =) Oh, and a pair of 10000uF 25VDC -- mustn't forget those. The good news here is that I have the original IMSAI User Manual -- the one with complete system diagrams and assembly instructions, since this was a kit. Full parts list and photos from many angles. This will make rebuilding the power supply _so_ much easier. The S100 backplane is mildewed as well. How should I clean this? I know this is probably a FAQ question, but I still can't find the archives of this list, I'm afraid. I'll probably also need to replace the little screws that hold on the front panel plexiglass. It's really odd how some little components, like these, rusted over terribly, while 95% of the rest of the system just has mildew or mold spots, and no rust. Weird (but wow I'm glad. Of course, I think the chassis is aluminum, so it's no wonder it didn't rust =) Time for a Fry's run... If anyone would like to help me out with this little project, please drop me a line. I'm a bit out of my league here -- see, I'm mainly a software guy, and my hardware building/fixing experience is very slim. I can work a soldering iron alright, but that's about where my electronics skill ends :) I have, however, always wanted to learn. Suggestions welcome! Note, however, that it is not productive to point at me and go "HA ha!" :) -Seth From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Apr 4 02:43:29 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: ISA-PCI Conversion possible? (About MS's PC 98 Specs) Message-ID: <000a01bd5fa5$d49c5660$7867bcc1@hotze> OK.. I've been thinking about this for a while. ISA's going to die, at least according to MS's PC '98 specs. Knowing how most designers comply to MS's hardware design, it looks like ISA's future is dim. Now, on top of all the old ISA cards I've collected, I just got an AWE 64, and my scanner and PCMCIA cards are ISA-based. So, is it possible to make a device that will make an ISA card fit into a PCI socket? Is anyone making them? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 4 03:21:35 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100 M30 In-Reply-To: <199804040832.AAA02729@u1.netgate.net> Message-ID: OK, I realize this probably doesn't quite squeak in under the 10 year mark, but... Basically I've got a really stupid question, does the external SCSI bus HAVE to be terminated? If so any idea's on how to go about doing that without finding a DEC terminator? I'd like to be able to run it without the terminater, since I don't have one, but would like to know if it's possible before I go digging up the rest of the stuff I need to see if it works. On a less important note, I've got a Monochrome 19" or so monitor that came with my VAXstation II/RC, I believe it's a VR260, but since it's in storage I might be wrong. Will old monitors like this work with the a VS3100? Not a real biggy since I intend to simply attach a VT320 or VT420 to it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From afritz at iname.com Sat Apr 4 03:32:19 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100 M30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > OK, I realize this probably doesn't quite squeak in under the 10 year mark, > but... 1 year off isn't too bad. > Basically I've got a really stupid question, does the external SCSI bus > HAVE to be terminated? If so any idea's on how to go about doing that > without finding a DEC terminator? It doesn't need termination unless you have an external device hooked to it. (The <1in length of the connector from the controller should fall within acceptance of the SCSI spec. I heard that the SCSI-1 spec didn't even require termination. Is there truth to that? ) I've never seen a DEC terminator that fits that plug (68-pin male). > On a less important note, I've got a Monochrome 19" or so monitor that came > with my VAXstation II/RC, I believe it's a VR260, but since it's in storage > I might be wrong. Will old monitors like this work with the a VS3100? Not > a real biggy since I intend to simply attach a VT320 or VT420 to it. I don't know the DEC monitors numbers right off, but I think if it worked with the VSII than it will probaby work with the VS3100. It's monochrome (unless you have the GPX or SPX cards), and runs at something like 1152x800 @70Hz. (I really don't remember the exact numbers.) Adam ---------- Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com http://www.afritz.base.org ---------- From yowza at yowza.com Sat Apr 4 03:35:02 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100 M30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Basically I've got a really stupid question, does the external SCSI bus > HAVE to be terminated? If so any idea's on how to go about doing that > without finding a DEC terminator? Yes, otherwise you get impossible to diagnose problems caused by reflections. You can either bum a terminator off somebody (I've got one for a DS3100 that should work), or you might be able to terminate the final drive in the chain directly. Some drives have a jumper you can set, others have a resistor pack you can stick in them. I haven't checked the DEC drives specifically. > On a less important note, I've got a Monochrome 19" or so monitor that came > with my VAXstation II/RC, I believe it's a VR260, but since it's in storage > I might be wrong. Will old monitors like this work with the a VS3100? Not > a real biggy since I intend to simply attach a VT320 or VT420 to it. Dunno. Mebbe the VaxStation FAQ will help: http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/mvax_faq..html -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Sat Apr 4 05:11:43 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: ISA-PCI Conversion possible? (About MS's PC 98 Specs) References: <000a01bd5fa5$d49c5660$7867bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3526156F.194099DC@cnct.com> Hotze wrote: > > OK.. I've been thinking about this for a while. ISA's going to die, at > least according to MS's PC '98 specs. Knowing how most designers comply to > MS's hardware design, it looks like ISA's future is dim. Now, on top of all > the old ISA cards I've collected, I just got an AWE 64, and my scanner and > PCMCIA cards are ISA-based. So, is it possible to make a device that will > make an ISA card fit into a PCI socket? Is anyone making them? I definitely won't say it's impossible -- at my age I've given up making judgements like that on technical matters. I will say that it's a non-trivial problem and likely to produce underwhelming performance compared to native PCI boards. My own preference is to keep at least one machine (like I would ever cut it down to that!) to which the old equipment is native and network it to the newer equipment as I acquire it. Then again, I don't pay a lot of attention to MS's hardware specs, since the only times I run their software is to play games or to figure out how to get something running in DOSEMU or WABI under Linux -- most of my emulators of old 8-bit equipment (Tandy, Apple, Atari, etc.) work just fine that way, and I really _don't need_ the bells and whistles in the latest Microsoft Office(tm) suite except when an employer insists upon it at work, and eight times out of ten I manage to get around it there as well. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sat Apr 4 05:31:13 1998 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: <001b01bd5fbd$2d89b8a0$05f438cb@nostromo> This struck a chord with me... >protection of data/software contained on the machine or disks. If you buy a >camcorder at a consignment or pawn shop and the last owners left a tape of >their after-hours playtime in the camcorder, is it my responsibility to erase, >safeguard or return it? I think not. I feel the same should apply to personal ABSOLUTELY it is your responsibility. We lost the first 3 months tape of our son's birth, homecoming and grandparents meeting, due to the theft of a camcorder with the tape still inside. The camcorder was stored at work, in a locked and alarmed office. It still got stolen. Probably it ended up in a pawn shop somewhere. I didn't care about the recorder, but the tape was priceless. You just never know about data, and in the above situation I think it is your primary responsibility to make SURE you don't have something you shouldn't. We were heartbroken at our data loss. Just because it's in a pawn shop, or consignment, or in the dumpster - doesn't invalidate copyright, or give you a right to do what you will with it. If you found a personal videotape or data and make no effort to determine if it is important to the original owner, then I think you are abrogating your responsibilities as a good citizen. Cheers A From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Apr 4 06:03:58 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: ISA-PCI Conversion possible? (About MS's PC 98 Specs) Message-ID: <47bde68c.352621af@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-04 03:45:54 EST, you write: << OK.. I've been thinking about this for a while. ISA's going to die, at least according to MS's PC '98 specs. Knowing how most designers comply to MS's hardware design, it looks like ISA's future is dim. Now, on top of all the old ISA cards I've collected, I just got an AWE 64, and my scanner and PCMCIA cards are ISA-based. So, is it possible to make a device that will make an ISA card fit into a PCI socket? Is anyone making them? >> this question seems to be similar to another problem; people want to use isa cards in a mca machine, and it's just not possible. best just to keep a legacy machine around since it seems there will always be isa cards around. gee, gotta love that pc97 criteria. silent posting and no memory count? harrrrumph, really good for problem determination! 8-\ david From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Apr 4 06:11:40 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: ISA-PCI Conversion possible? (About MS's PC 98 Specs) Message-ID: <003f01bd5fc2$f4a09260$7867bcc1@hotze> >I definitely won't say it's impossible -- at my age I've given up >making judgements like that on technical matters. I will say that >it's a non-trivial problem and likely to produce underwhelming >performance compared to native PCI boards. My own preference is Yeah, but very few PCI boards are actually running at the full PCI specs. I've even seen some PCI versions of ISA boards that work at exactly the same speed as their ISA counterpart. >to keep at least one machine (like I would ever cut it down to >that!) to which the old equipment is native and network it to the >newer equipment as I acquire it. Then again, I don't pay a lot of >attention to MS's hardware specs, since the only times I run their >software is to play games or to figure out how to get something >running in DOSEMU or WABI under Linux -- most of my emulators of Well, as unimportant as they may seem to you, their hardware specs will influence your x86 Linux machines, unless a vendor's smart enough to make ISA/PCI/AGP boards. >old 8-bit equipment (Tandy, Apple, Atari, etc.) work just fine >that way, and I really _don't need_ the bells and whistles in the >latest Microsoft Office(tm) suite except when an employer insists >upon it at work, and eight times out of ten I manage to get >around it there as well. You're right, but still, like I said, you may be ISA-less. It's time that we killed the bus, I agree, but allowing a smooth migration would help alot. For instance, my AWE 64's been on my machine for under a week. Now, if I were to get an all-PCI system, I'd loose my *new* soundcard. ISA's outdated, my SB isn't. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Apr 4 07:19:02 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-04 06:46:33 EST, you write: << This struck a chord with me... >protection of data/software contained on the machine or disks. If you buy a >camcorder at a consignment or pawn shop and the last owners left a tape of >their after-hours playtime in the camcorder, is it my responsibility to erase, >safeguard or return it? I think not. I feel the same should apply to personal ABSOLUTELY it is your responsibility. >> i'd be willing to argue this somewhat. as an example, my brother gave me a complete ps2 model 30 that was literally being thrown in the trash. the company he worked for was upgrading their computers. when i finally got a hold of it, i looked at all the data on the machine. i found some personal data from someone who evidently used it such as resume, job history, etc in addition to work specific to that company. there was also a few other programs on it, such as xtree, wp51, lotus and procomm. as i deleted the data files keeping the applications, i felt no responsibility to the previous user. it may not be politically correct, but i will save any applications i find on the computers i pick up. david From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Apr 4 08:28:08 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: <19980404142808.1622.qmail@hotmail.com> ><< This struck a chord with me... > > >protection of data/software contained on the machine or disks. If you buy a > >camcorder at a consignment or pawn shop and the last owners left a tape of > >their after-hours playtime in the camcorder, is it my responsibility to > erase, > >safeguard or return it? I think not. I feel the same should apply to > personal OK, my father's car was stolen once, and when we got it back, we found a tape in it (apparently of a counseling session) that wasn't there before. Is it our responsibility to erase it? > > >i'd be willing to argue this somewhat. as an example, my brother gave me a >complete ps2 model 30 that was literally being thrown in the trash. the >company he worked for was upgrading their computers. when i finally got a hold >of it, i looked at all the data on the machine. i found some personal data >from someone who evidently used it such as resume, job history, etc in >addition to work specific to that company. there was also a few other programs >on it, such as xtree, wp51, lotus and procomm. as i deleted the data files >keeping the applications, i felt no responsibility to the previous user. it >may not be politically correct, but i will save any applications i find on the >computers i pick up. I save my programs too, at least to check what they are. Once I've checked, I generally wish never to see the program again (weird games that have no way to quit them, strange finance programs, etc.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sat Apr 4 10:32:07 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100 M30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Adam Fritzler wrote: > On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > OK, I realize this probably doesn't quite squeak in under the 10 year mark, > > but... > > 1 year off isn't too bad. > > > Basically I've got a really stupid question, does the external SCSI bus > > HAVE to be terminated? If so any idea's on how to go about doing that > > without finding a DEC terminator? > > It doesn't need termination unless you have an external device hooked to > it. (The <1in length of the connector from the controller should fall > within acceptance of the SCSI spec. I heard that the SCSI-1 spec didn't > even require termination. Is there truth to that? ) I've never seen a > DEC terminator that fits that plug (68-pin male). There is a terminator on mine, labeled: 12-29635-01 REV A 56912-000 It's got a 68-pin female, 3 resistors, and a diode. Aaron From TOwad at aol.com Sat Apr 4 09:06:20 1998 From: TOwad at aol.com (T Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 Message-ID: Hello, I bought an Epson HX-20 at a Hamfest a weekend or two ago. It's a very neat system. Somebody cut a piece of foam to fit in their suitcase, and then cut holes in it to fit the computer, modem, power supply, and cassettes. It looks like something you'd see on the old "Get Smart" TV show. :-) Unfortunately, it won't power on. The battery charges to 4.5v, but no farther. Is that what's needed? The printer will not turn on, either. I'm thinking its the battery, but want to get a second opinion before buying a new one. Anybody? Thanks, Tom P.S. Any offers? In addition to the above mentioned, I have a several of manuals, a bunch of printer ribbons and paper, and about 7 cassettes. From PB14 at leicester.ac.uk Sat Apr 4 09:48:55 1998 From: PB14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: TI Silent 700 Message-ID: <176CBE54BBE@orchid.le.ac.uk> Somebody asked about pinouts for the 700 series. I have the manual for the International Model 745 sitting on my desk (I have the actual machine at home) so if anyone has any specific questions I'll try to help. Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From pb14 at leicester.ac.uk Sat Apr 4 09:55:04 1998 From: pb14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: MacCharlie info Message-ID: <176E5E958D4@orchid.le.ac.uk> Last year I acquired a 1985 Dayna MacCharlie w/o docs or software. The MacCharlie is a DOS box that hooks up to a compact Mac and aside from that I know virtually nothing about it. Can anyone advise on:- Locating software/docs ? Which Mac models does it work with (128, 512, Plus?) ? Anything? Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat Apr 4 10:36:43 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Old Data References: <001b01bd5fbd$2d89b8a0$05f438cb@nostromo> Message-ID: <3526619B.C1D77EA1@bbtel.com> Andrew Davie wrote: > This struck a chord with me... > > >protection of data/software contained on the machine or disks. If you buy a > >camcorder at a consignment or pawn shop and the last owners left a tape of > >their after-hours playtime in the camcorder, is it my responsibility to > erase, > >safeguard or return it? I think not. I feel the same should apply to > personal > > ABSOLUTELY it is your responsibility. We lost the first 3 months tape of > our son's birth, homecoming and grandparents meeting, due to the theft of a > camcorder with the tape still inside. The camcorder was stored at work, in > a locked and alarmed office. It still got stolen. Probably it ended up in > a pawn shop somewhere. I didn't care about the recorder, but the tape was > priceless. You just never know about data, and in the above situation I > think it is your primary responsibility to make SURE you don't have > something you shouldn't. > > We were heartbroken at our data loss. Just because it's in a pawn shop, or > consignment, or in the dumpster - doesn't invalidate copyright, or give you > a right to do what you will with it. If you found a personal videotape or > data and make no effort to determine if it is important to the original > owner, then I think you are abrogating your responsibilities as a good > citizen. I really have to debate this one, as much as it is off-topic. Yet it still runs a parallel with data safeguards. If you have a hard drive that has sensitive or irreplaceable data on it, aren't you going to make a "backup" on tape, CD, floppy or the like? The same runs true for video. If it's that irreplaceable you'd better have a quality duplicate made that can be stored in a safe deposit or fireproof safe. The world is too big and it's not anyone's responsibility to guard your media other than yours. Sounds rough but the same goes for any of your personal or business possesions. You took 99% of the precautions needed to safeguard the video - except - making a copy that would ride out a tornado, earthquake, fire, theft, etc. Had this been done (same as if your computer were stolen) you could replace the commonplace equipment and have a copy made from that same master and be right back to the beginning. In most cases the insurance company would pay for the replacement tape copying as well. The days of finding a $20 bill on the sidewalk and trying to locate the owner are long gone for the most part. If I found one on State Street in downtown Chicago and waited for a claimant, I'd wait forever. If I posted a found notice I'd have half the city at my door claiming it. For those that live in secluded tiny communities where everyone knows everyone from birth then this is the exception. Opie has grown up now and has to have a logging chain and vicious dog watching his bike now. While it would be nice if people still did things the way they used to before the age of the hippie, that era is now the age of 13 year olds gunning each other down at school. You need to change your view on self protection as things in general change. No one is going to look out for you except yourself. Am I wrong here? Think about it before you load a hard drive with sensitve information and decide that $45 is too much to invest in a removeable carrier that allows you to put the entire drive into secure storage. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Apr 4 10:47:02 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: PS/2 M30 available... Message-ID: <13345147934.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> People are moving to Texas and don't wanna have to haul it. IBM PS/3 model 30, VGA monitor, a whole box of software, printer of some sort. Any takers? They want about $50, but will take any reasonable offer. If it doesn't get sold, it gets dumpstered. (I have no room for it...) ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 4 11:14:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: PS/2 M30 available... Message-ID: <199804041714.AA27059@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3526710C.ED82B2F6@bbtel.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > They are kidding. It's an 8mhz 8086, ISA8 two floppies and it may have a > color monitor of the older coarse dot pitch. Not worth 50$, 10 or 15 > maybe. > > It would cost too much ship it or I'd be interested in it for the > monitor. (I'd keep the box as it's small and a robust design turbo XT) It really depends on what a person wants from all of it though and where they are as far as shipping. I've shipped heavy TRS-80 model 4's to SanFrancisco and the recipient seemed happy to pay the shipping. Of course UPS (pronounced "oops") damaged the unit and made it unusable. They also got to pay the damages as far as I know. You're right about the open market resale though. The average person won't mess with one for more than $10 at thrift or consignment stores. Again, it's all in what a prospective buyer wants in it. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 4 10:56:40 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100 M30 In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "VAXstation 3100 M30" (Apr 4, 1:21) References: Message-ID: <9804041756.ZM20816@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> > Basically I've got a really stupid question, does the external SCSI bus > HAVE to be terminated? If so any idea's on how to go about doing that > without finding a DEC terminator? Yes, it needs termination, unless there's nothing connected *and the cable between the controller and the last socket* is extrememly short -- which it often isn't. This rule applies to SASI, SCSI (aka SCSI-1), SCSI-2, and SCSI-3. Otherwise, you'll get signal reflections, which, at best, will limit the speed the bus can run at. There should be a terminator at each end of the bus. There are two kinds of terminators: active and passive. In passive types, each signal has a 220 ohm resistor to +5V and a 330 ohm resistor to ground. They hold the voltage on an idle line at about 3 volts, and (assuming the power supply impedance is negligible) form an effective impedance of 132 ohms. The ideal impedance depends on the cable, but it's generally about 110 ohms. It's this terminating impedance that prevents reflections. Active terminators do the same job, but each signal line is connected via a 110 ohm resistor to a 2.85V supply. These are a somewhat better impedance match and often have a better high-speed response, so they're recommended for faster SCSI busses. Being exceedingly stingy, I built an active terminator using a pile of miniature resistors, a voltage regulator, a couple of capacitors, and a plug. Oh, and an LED for show. I don't believe any electronic device should be LED-less, and if it flashes, so much the better :-) I would recommend buying a terminator, though; building mine was quite fiddly and time-consuming. > I'd like to be able to run it without the terminater, since I don't have > one, but would like to know if it's possible before I go digging up the > rest of the stuff I need to see if it works. If your bus ends at a 68-pin socket (which is a DEC special, not part of the SCSI spec, unless it's Wide SCSI), it might be relatively hard to find a terminator plug. But most devices have provision for terminating resistors on the the device itself. All the RZ drives and CD ROM drives I've seen do. Usually these are in the form of three single-inline resistor packs, each with 8 pins, and containing six pairs of 220/330 ohm resistors. Toshiba CD-ROM drives use two 11-pin networks, though. They cost about 40 pence each from electronics suppliers in the UK; I expect they cost about the same in the States. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Apr 4 13:30:46 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: big $$$ PAID for 8" floppy In-Reply-To: <35258CB3.9356C1C6@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Apr 3, 98 08:28:19 pm Message-ID: <9804041930.AA23280@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1195 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980404/4ee40f42/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Apr 4 13:44:48 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: IMSAI woes In-Reply-To: <199804040832.AAA02729@u1.netgate.net> from "Seth J. Morabito" at Apr 4, 98 00:32:38 am Message-ID: <9804041944.AA26285@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5234 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980404/21450601/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Sat Apr 4 13:52:09 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Hacker Toys In-Reply-To: <9804041930.AA23280@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On a whim, I just bought a small box of handhelds from DHL (the shipping folks). A few Symbol 1510's (one 128K, the others 64K), two MSI/85's, a few laser scanners, and one light pen. Other than dead batteries, they seem to work. They currently contain EPROMs that contain an uninteresting (to me) shipping program. These promise to provide hours of fun if I can find some information about them. I'd like to trade a couple of these pups away in an effort to get them into the hands of capable hackers (or anybody that wants to start their own shipping business, I suppose). Send me an offer if you want one. I'll try to take some digital pix this weekend to better convey their leather-covered full alphanumeric LCD coolness. -- Doug From cad at gamewood.net Sat Apr 4 14:01:52 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: IMSAI woes References: <199804040832.AAA02729@u1.netgate.net> Message-ID: <352691B0.360D@gamewood.net> Hi Seth: Take it easy!!!! It's no where as bad as it sounds. >Seth J. Morabito wrote: > snip > The power supply seems to be worst off of everything. The boards, > although needing to be cleaned of some spots of mildew, seem mostly OK. > Possibly a few tiny rust spots -- I'd say 100% of the chips are replacable > by easily-found parts, either period pieces or newer pieces. But probably > 99% of the chips won't need replacing. They seem to be doing very well. > I have two Cromemco ZPU boards, so even if one has some bad parts, > I should be able to take spares from the other. > Disassemble down to the 'board level'. WASH the boards with Isopropel alcohol, using a soft brush to disloge dirt/dust, dry, clean the edge connectors wwith a _mildly abrasive_ eraser, at that point the boards should be fine. (Including the chips.) > But that power supply... eek. The transformer is covered in a thick layer > of rust, and the whole thing just looks dirty and mildewed. Again, wash with alcohol, dry. Then a light spritz of "WD-40" (or similar), and a wire brush on any _THICK and FLAKEY_ parts od the IRON part of the transformer. Final 'dry'. aand you should bee to the 're-assembly'/test part of the program. > I think > the best course of action now would be to desolder every component of > the power supply and build a new one -- sadly, losing a bit of IMSAI > authenticity in the process. Oh well... Say, does anyone know where > I can get a pair of 95000uF 15VDC electrolytic capacitors? =) Oh, and > a pair of 10000uF 25VDC -- mustn't forget those. UNLESS the capacitors are _badly_ corroded, they should have cleaned up in the general alcohol wash/dry cycle. The probably _DO_ need to be gently brought back to life. Using a 'Variac' (or similar variable transformer), fire up the unit with 1/2 or less of the normal input AC voltage. Gradual increase the input AC untill the normal value is reached. (An increase of 5v every couple minutes is probably about right.) IF this doesn't recover things, _then_ it's "rebuild" time. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From rexstout at uswest.net Sat Apr 4 14:29:56 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: what do I do with a Multibus? Message-ID: Just picked up an interesting unit at a hamfest, there was a box with a large power supply, a long tube with BNC connectors at each end(some sort of attenuator I suppose), and a large jumble of cards inside a backplane. Well, when I just got home now I dug through it, and found a few interesting things inside. The first card is from Intel, with an 8086 CPU and some other stuff. Attached to the CPU board are two daughterboards, one with a connector and an 8272 chip, and another with an 8203 and a bunch of EPROMs, as well as a lithium battery. There are a 50pin and 26pin edge connector on the top of the CPU board. The second board is a Netronix "Multibus PC Network Adapter" card, with an F-type connector. I don't know much about this type of network system except I don't have anything to hook into it. Third card is another one from Intel, labeled "iSBC 576", with another 8086, two connectors on the top, and an SBC576 daughtercard. Fourth card is a PROSE 2000, with a 26-pin edge connector and another connector, and a bunch of EPROMs marked "Speech Plus (c)1983", and yet another 8086 chip. Looks like the company name is Speech Plus Inc. I guess this is a speech synth. The last two cards appear to be memory expansion, made by Memtech, and have a large (50 pin) connector on the top, and "ISBC254S" silkscreened into the board. So, does anyone know what to do with this thing? How do I set it up? What kind of OS does it run? I'm thinking it may have been a repeater controller(I did find this at a hamfest...), which would make sense, with the speech synth being the automatic ID'er. Where do I find info on all this multibus stuff? Thanks -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 4 08:47:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: big $$$ PAID for 8" floppy In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 3, 98 08:17:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980404/f4f76b2a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 4 10:39:19 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Epson HX-20 In-Reply-To: from "T Owad" at Apr 4, 98 10:06:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3196 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980404/dd207be0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 4 09:13:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: IMSAI woes In-Reply-To: <199804040832.AAA02729@u1.netgate.net> from "Seth J. Morabito" at Apr 4, 98 00:32:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2540 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980404/aa7ccb59/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 4 09:46:39 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: ISA-PCI Conversion possible? (About MS's PC 98 Specs) In-Reply-To: <000a01bd5fa5$d49c5660$7867bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Apr 4, 98 11:43:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980404/d7433902/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 4 08:32:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: big $$$ PAID for 8" floppy In-Reply-To: <35258CB3.9356C1C6@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Apr 3, 98 08:28:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980404/050009fa/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sat Apr 4 13:07:33 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: ISA-PCI Conversion possible? (About MS's PC 98 Specs) In-Reply-To: <47bde68c.352621af@aol.com> Message-ID: <199804042359.SAA07999@mail.cgocable.net> > In a message dated 98-04-04 03:45:54 EST, you write: > > << OK.. I've been thinking about this for a while. ISA's going to die, at > least according to MS's PC '98 specs. Knowing how most designers comply to > MS's hardware design, it looks like ISA's future is dim. Now, on top of all > the old ISA cards I've collected, I just got an AWE 64, and my scanner and > PCMCIA cards are ISA-based. So, is it possible to make a device that will > make an ISA card fit into a PCI socket? Is anyone making them? >> > > this question seems to be similar to another problem; people want to use isa > cards in a mca machine, and it's just not possible. best just to keep a legacy > machine around since it seems there will always be isa cards around. gee, > gotta love that pc97 criteria. silent posting and no memory count? harrrrumph, > really good for problem determination! 8-\ > > david Guys! Overheard that PC99 specs would be closed up and open one isa slot but not allowed to put anything there. Only allows user expandable via pcmcia type and like. YUK! I perfer the informative post codes, phoenix style and famous HP multi-beeps/boops and liked the way the IBM use the post code in hex format when booting up on later series of their machines. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 4 18:25:10 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Good Finds Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980404182510.006bd020@pop3.concentric.net> This week has been pretty good and I picked up over 40 items, what follows is just a short list of the items I think are worth mentioning. PC1512DD Amstrad system complete with monitor, kb, and manuals not tested yet; IBM PS/2 8580-121 tower not tested yet; digital PC278-A DecMate II with two system diskettes not tested yet; Compaq Portable II not tested yet; Apple Mono Monitor IIe Platinum new in box with all papers and cords; Prim LTS300 Terminal Server; The Designer Pencil cartridge; HP 9121 not test yet; Apple High resolution Mono works great; IBM terminal 8535150 I think is the number; AED Colorware 767 TT; digital monitor VR290-DA; PixelView II monitor by Mirror; Toshiba T1000XE with everything manual, extra new batteries, etc; Portac unit; Sharp CE-150 printer and cassette unit; Sharp CE-159 program module; Many other items that will go into the museum someday. Keep Computing !! John From engine at chac.org Sat Apr 4 20:05:27 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: ISA-PCI Conversion possible? (About MS's PC 98 Specs) In-Reply-To: References: <000a01bd5fa5$d49c5660$7867bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980404180527.00f6ce30@pop.batnet.com> At 16:46 4/4/98 +0100, you wrote: >> the old ISA cards I've collected, I just got an AWE 64, and my scanner and >> PCMCIA cards are ISA-based. So, is it possible to make a device that will >> make an ISA card fit into a PCI socket? Is anyone making them? No point. Software developers who write to the PC98 spec are not required to provide ISA support. As far as Microsoft is concerned, as soon as PC98 hardware fills the channel, ISA is as dead as S-100. (Before people start throwing things, I am NOT implying I agree with this.) __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 5 00:11:03 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100 M30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My thanks to all that replied to my questions. Better than the "are you out of your mind" I expected :^) Based on the answers I recieved, and the fact that when cleaned the case up some I noticed that based on the positioning of a label over the SCSI port it was probable that nothing had ever been plugged in there I decided to give it a go. Anyway, the result was I pulled my VT420 out of storage, hunted up a cable for the terminal, and powered it on. It seems to be working just fine, and much to my surprise and pleasure it has 16Mb of RAM. Of course it's only running VMS 5.3 on a pair of RZ-23's, but hey it's faster, smaller and quieter than my MV2! Now to get a better Hard Drive, and add a CD-ROM. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From yowza at yowza.com Sun Apr 5 04:32:30 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: ACP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just stopped by Advanced Computer Products in Orange County today, a place that's been selling computers since 1977 or so. They've got a pretty nice collection of micros on display, so if you find yourself in the neighborhood of Edinger and Grand in Santa Ana, take a look. They've got an Altair, three IMSAI's, and a bunch of others. There are a few surplus shops in the same mini-mall with ACP, and I just bought a brand new still-in-the-box Momenta from one of them. Unfortunately, they took it out of the box about three years ago long enough to remove the RAM and redirect it to some evil purpose. Are there any Momenta owners on the list that might be able to tell me what kind of RAM I need to find? -- Doug From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Apr 4 00:25:10 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <199804051126.HAA00766@smtp.interlog.com> Today I picked up from the garbage a 9pin Epson and what I first thought was a big old IBM XT figuring I could always off it to someone after I checked out it's peripherals. When I got home I found it was a 5150. I noticed it had a paste-on sticker "Intel Inboard 386" Someone's attempt at humor I thought since the 5150 was the first IBM PC IIRC and likely had only 256k RAM. It had the DIN plugs for kb and cassette and two full-ht. IBM fdds; couldn't see a Hdd. The 5 expansion slots seemed full tho and I was getting more interested. I hooked up a monitor and kb and fired it up without opening it up first (I know-risky). Started up fine, flashing cursor checked the drives and up comes an Intel flashscreen Inboard 386 PC Vers 1.1 02/17/89 Intel Corporation conv. mem. init. 640 k ext mem. 256 k Initial Op. Speed Very Fast system BIOS 32-bit RAM EGA BIOS ROM iNBRDPC Dev. Driver installed I hit a key and up comes a C:\ prompt.! Nothing too interesting on the HD , usual WP5.1 and Lotus a few others i don't recognize Very rudimentary Auto and Config usual but with inbrdpc.sys Of course I quickly pop it open No HD !!?? It turns out it has a 20 Meg "Plus Development" Hard Card . The Intel card is a 16mhz and it has an empty socket for a 387 The small serial port card has f - 15 pin and 25 pin sockets. Small Herc. type card video and prtr.ports The floppy controller card has a f-35 pin ext. socket ? Snooper tells me it has 2 ser ports and 2 paral. configured and bench-marks 20mhz ( don't know how accurate Snoop's bench is but this sure beats an XT) I was blown away I didn't think an XT much less a PC could be upgraded without replacing the MB. And the Hard Card was gravy The possibilities are interesting. I'm wondering if I could beef up the RAM Put in an Extended Graphics Adapter (not Array) and hook up my 3270 type IBM monitor (5272). There's an interesting section in Que's "Upgrading and Repairing PCs" on the 3270PC BTW. I wonder also what the cassette and 35 pin I/Os offer in the way of interfacing According to Snooper there's 16 Irq's.and I could free up a exp. socket by pulling the hard card if I could put in a bigger HD. Would a SCSI card be an option so I could put in 1.2 and /or 1.44 fdds ? It would be neat if I could run Linux on it. Excuse my blathering but I'm like a kid with an amazing new toy. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 5 11:14:53 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Nice Find References: <199804051126.HAA00766@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3527ADFD.8DEE619F@bbtel.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > Today I picked up from the garbage a 9pin Epson and what I first thought > was a big old IBM XT figuring I could always off it to someone after I checked > The small serial port card has f - 15 pin and 25 pin sockets. 15 pin is generally a game port. 25 pin male is a serial and female is a printer port. > Would a SCSI card be an option so I could put in 1.2 and/or 1.44 fdds ? Either is possible since it's a 386. The controller should accomodate the FDDs. > It would be neat if I could run Linux on it. Possible. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 5 10:17:06 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <199804051517.AA28933@world.std.com> Hi, ---------- > From: Zane H. Healy > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Anyway, the result was I pulled my VT420 out of storage, hunted up a cable > for the terminal, and powered it on. It seems to be working just fine, and > much to my surprise and pleasure it has 16Mb of RAM. Of course it's only > running VMS 5.3 on a pair of RZ-23's, but hey it's faster, smaller and > quieter than my MV2! Now to get a better Hard Drive, and add a CD-ROM. & try NetBSD .... cheers, emanuel From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Apr 5 11:00:26 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <000a01bd60ac$171d9ce0$9967bcc1@hotze> >< Inboard 386 PC >< Vers 1.1 02/17/89 >< Intel Corporation > >Same beast I have in my Leading Edge XT. That would be cool to have. ><20mhz ( don't know how accurate Snoop's bench is but this sure beats an X > >It's warped. It's a 386/16 and that's all. Yeah, but with extra RAM, etc. it could very well benchmark as a higher or lower MHz, even with today's Winbench's. >< I was blown away I didn't think an XT much less a PC could be upgraded > >That's been going on for a while and there was a AT (286) version as well. > >< The possibilities are interesting. I'm wondering if I could beef up the > >IF it's ISA-8 you likely can. > >< It would be neat if I could run Linux on it. >< Excuse my blathering but I'm like a kid with an amazing new toy. > >No way! All the ram you have is the 1meg on the inboard and I think it >used the 256k (maximum) on the mother as expanded mem. If yu can find the >memory card that piggy backs to it you can add either a meg or maybe two >to it. Nomantter what linux in less than 4meg would be poor and >completely unrunable in under 2mb. Linux won't run XF86 even in mono mode with less than 8MB RAM, which makes zero sense because any PC that shipped with 8MB RAM and a mono card was either: 1) Something like a NeXT machine 2) A graphics machine, but was DEFINATELY NOT A GENERAL-USE PC! There are several projects going on to have Linux run on 286 and lower machines, and, of course, lowering RAM consumption. There's an 8MB distribution that only requires 512K (I believe) RAM, if you give it enough swap space (in that case, it would be 3.5MB) >Windows 3.1 does run on it with the 1meg. It'll run, but in my experience, Windows 3.1 doesn't do to much with it. My friends 286 (they were still using it last summer when they moved, but it was retrofit with MY 210MB HDD, and a SVGA monitor and graphics card) You can't extract files, run most software that was designed for Windows 3.1. I'd go with 3.0, if I had a choice. If I was you, I would just upgrade to DOS 5.0 or so. It'll run loads of software, and is more consistent with the hardware that you have, minus the 386CPU. And, it's smaller, so you could actually have more software on it. Come to think of it, I believe that Windows 3.1 is like 25MB, plus the DOS 5.0 that's required to run it, which fits on 5 720K floppies, I believe. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze >Allison > From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Apr 5 12:42:41 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: ISA to PCI? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980405094241.00e5e1a0@mail.jps.net> Tim Hotze scribbled... >the old ISA cards I've collected, I just got an AWE 64, and my scanner and >PCMCIA cards are ISA-based. So, is it possible to make a device that will >make an ISA card fit into a PCI socket? Is anyone making them? No one that I know of. In fact, I question that such a device is even economically possible to the point that a company would want to try. The architecture differences between PCI and ISA are enormous. The only thing I can think of that -might- stand a chance of working is to construct some sort of sub-board that the ISA card would plug into. Said sub-board would contain the necessary circuitry to implement an ISA-to-PCI bridge. This means, at bare minimum, dealing with a 220-lead surface-mount PQFP chip and its supporting components. That means lots of skill in engineering such bridges, to say nothing of having access to schematic capture and PC board layout tools that can handle advanced boards... Well, you get the idea. I'm not going to say "it can't be done" because I think it can. It's just that I have neither the skill nor the desire to attempt it. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Apr 5 12:45:29 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:09 2005 Subject: SCSI Termination Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980405094529.00e4c900@mail.jps.net> Zane Healy proclaimed... >Basically I've got a really stupid question, does the external SCSI bus >HAVE to be terminated? If so any idea's on how to go about doing that >without finding a DEC terminator? The only "stupid" question is the one you keep to yourself. ;-) To answer; yes, you must have termination at both physical ends of a SCSI bus for reliable operation. If the DEC terminator you mention is the one I'm thinking of, I've looked on the insides and have not been impressed. They're simple passive terminators, suitable for short runs and low speeds. What device is it you're seeking termination for? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 5 12:07:54 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: SCSI Termination In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980405094529.00e4c900@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: Bruce Lane stated: >Zane Healy proclaimed... > >>Basically I've got a really stupid question, does the external SCSI bus >>HAVE to be terminated? If so any idea's on how to go about doing that >>without finding a DEC terminator? > > The only "stupid" question is the one you keep to yourself. ;-) > > To answer; yes, you must have termination at both physical ends of >a SCSI >bus for reliable operation. If the DEC terminator you mention is the one >I'm thinking of, I've looked on the insides and have not been impressed. >They're simple passive terminators, suitable for short runs and low speeds. > > What device is it you're seeking termination for? It is a VAXstation 3100 m30, however based on earlier posts, and some close examination of the external socket (it looks like it's never had a terminator). I went ahead and gave it a try. It's chugging along nicely behind me right now, and I had it up most of last night. The only problem I've had so far was hitting the CTRL-S on the VT420 and locking it up (this was only a problem because I didn't realize I'd done it so I didn't do the CTRL-Q). I've got a 68-pin terminator, but it's male, and unlike normal ports the one on the VAX is male. In any case as long as I stick with the internal bus I think I'm OK. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 5 12:14:30 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3100 M30 In-Reply-To: <19980405155405.AAA22205@1Cust88.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: >> much to my surprise and pleasure it has 16Mb of RAM. Of course it's only >> running VMS 5.3 on a pair of RZ-23's, but hey it's faster, smaller and >> quieter than my MV2! Now to get a better Hard Drive, and add a CD-ROM. > >& try NetBSD .... > >cheers, >emanuel Why? I got the machine to run VMS. I've tried to get it to boot netboot a VS2000, a friend has tried to get it to boot his MV2 from TK50, and we've both tried to get it to boot his MV3100 from TK50. We both did this following the various bits on info on how to do this and with the FAQ in hand. I wasn't impressed. I'll stick to Linux on Intel. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 5 12:20:37 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <199804051720.AA14409@world.std.com> <> Would a SCSI card be an option so I could put in 1.2 and/or 1.44 fdds HUH? Neither of these are an helped/hindered by the 386. SCSI is not needed to run 1.44/1.2 FDDs. You can put scsi in there even when it was an plain xt. To run the bigger floppies you need a controller that will, most XT controllers will not. JDR and JAMCO sell a board that will do up to 2.88 drives in a XT slot. FYI I've hacked the leading edge (xt) I have to include most of what you mention including a 20meg WD hardcard. It's MONO/herc, 20meg hardcard, 1.44 floppy, multi-IO (two serial, two LPT, game). Runs dos6.22 and I've had windows3.1 to prove it runs. Allison From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 5 13:30:36 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <19980405183036.14733.qmail@hotmail.com> > > >< Inboard 386 PC >< Vers 1.1 02/17/89 >< Intel Corporation > >Same beast I have in my Leading Edge XT. > >< Of course I quickly pop it open No HD !!?? > >Don't lose those files! > ><20mhz ( don't know how accurate Snoop's bench is but this sure beats an X > >It's warped. It's a 386/16 and that's all. How accurate are those diags anyway? Are they to be trusted? > >That's been going on for a while and there was a AT (286) version as well. > >< The possibilities are interesting. I'm wondering if I could beef up the > >IF it's ISA-8 you likely can. > >< It would be neat if I could run Linux on it. >< Excuse my blathering but I'm like a kid with an amazing new toy. > Although this certainly is a cool toy (I'd love to have an XT I could do something wiht), you shouldn't be able to put Linux on it. For one thing, it seems to need drivers, and Linux doesn't have them. Also, the fact that it's an ISA card could reduce performance. Lastly, the thing may not run at full 32 bits,protected mode. > >Windows 3.1 does run on it with the 1meg. Yes, but no windows programs except the ones that came with it. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 5 13:34:23 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <19980405183423.5285.qmail@hotmail.com> I have a bunch of 80 MB mac hard drives. would an old PC SCSI card run them? > >HUH? Neither of these are an helped/hindered by the 386. SCSI is not >needed to run 1.44/1.2 FDDs. You can put scsi in there even when it was >an plain xt. To run the bigger floppies you need a controller that will, >most XT controllers will not. JDR and JAMCO sell a board that will do up >to 2.88 drives in a XT slot. Has anyone actually seen a 2.88 MB floppy drive? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 5 13:58:38 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <199804051858.AA04780@world.std.com> <>It's warped. It's a 386/16 and that's all. Windows 3.1 does run on it with the 1meg. >I have a bunch of 80 MB mac hard drives. would an old PC SCSI card >run them? Depends. If it was designed for a Mac specifically, then it won't work. But 9/10 SCSI devices will work indescriminately on a Mac, PC, or Unix machine, provided that drivers exist, if required. >>HUH? Neither of these are an helped/hindered by the 386. SCSI is not >>needed to run 1.44/1.2 FDDs. You can put scsi in there even when it >was >>an plain xt. To run the bigger floppies you need a controller that >will, >>most XT controllers will not. JDR and JAMCO sell a board that will do >up >>to 2.88 drives in a XT slot. >Has anyone actually seen a 2.88 MB floppy drive? I have. Almost got one. They were $7 new, black, from IBM. Actually, I don't really like 2.88MB drives: The meida STILL costs about $3-$4 a disk, and when you can just get 2 or 3 $0.25 or LESS 1.44MB disks, and then use a program to cut files down, you end up with better prices. So, unless you had a specific use, or REALLY wanted to cut down on total disk #'s, I can't say that I want one, especially not now, when Castle Wood's (http://www.castlewoodsystems.com) coming out with a $199 ORB drive, that can outperform Jaz drives, and hold 100MB more for $30 a piece on 2.1GB media. THAT'S innovation: New technology, low price, and a cool name. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Apr 5 14:15:07 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <001301bd60c7$5b8a7180$3867bcc1@hotze> > >Lower mhz yes faster never. Faster means a timer error or the program is >broken. The 386 implmentation on that card is very vanilla and no cache. Ok. Than what the heck is all this about AMD's and Cyrix's having LOWER megahertz (the Cyrix PR233's only 187.5) and actually benchmarking and performing like an Intel at a higher speed? >Besides it's checkes out on mine at 16 using norton, QAFE+ and a few >others. OK. If there's one thing that I've learned, what chip manufacturers put on chips means nearly NOTHING. It's the software, RAM, bus and how they work together that makes performance/lack thereof. > >Whatever you do don't tell my 386sx/33 that! It might stop working. OK. At our school, we've got some NICE 386's. SVGA video cards w/2MB RAM, 16MB RAM each, and an interesting way to put a 3.5" drive in a 5" bay. Now, I really need a small IDE HDD or a 3.5" MFM HDD and controller for one... >< There are several projects going on to have Linux run on 286 and lowe > >Look up ELKS. That's one, but there are many others. You could recompile them to be optimized for a 386, though. ><>Windows 3.1 does run on it with the 1meg. > >Runs good and most software that will fit in 1meg runs ok. Swapping is >heavy though so a fast disk helps. Yeah, but how much Windows 3.1 software fits on a meg? I'd say at least 2. I ran Windows 3.1 from 1993 to 1997, and I'd have to say that most programs that I ran were fairly large, most in double-digit MB's. >3.0 is ok but it will not run some apps at all! Yeah, and Windows 3.1 won't run a lot of apps. It really all depends on the owner, what they want to do, how they want to do it, and what SW they already have. BTW, where can I get a lisence+docs, disks for Windows 2.x? I need one for the above computer... > >I'm running 6.22 and LW had 5.x on his. I like DOS. It's a good OS. If it were kept more alive today... > >Huh? I had 6.22, win3.1, procomm+, and a few other things and had about >4.5mb free on a 20mb drive. DO5.0 would reduce it some but not alot, 3.3 >would be far smaller and still run w3.1. Really? 3.3? BTW, did you ever get that Linux box working? I just started w/Linux in Jan. and since then, I've installed, removed, reformated and ran 7 or so distributions. If you want, I can help, although I doubt my usefulnes past my own machines... If Linux/UNIX clones were really wnated, Minix is free for personal use... a older version, if it can be found, would probably work. Tim D. Hotze From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 5 14:17:59 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Math coprocessors Message-ID: <19980405191759.14995.qmail@hotmail.com> I found a PS/2 Model 70 recently, which would normally have a 386, but the previous owner installed a Cyrix 486 upgrade chip. Does anyone know if I can use a 386 math coprocessor with this? I want to run AutoCAD. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Apr 5 16:14:22 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find References: <199804051858.AA04780@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3527F426.620EE6BF@ndirect.co.uk> Allora la membrana viene ?15.00 + ?2.00 per l'imballaggio e la spedizione. Si tratta di una membrana del 49K Spectrum (quello con la tastiera di gomma) NUOVA di zecca (rimanenza del mio negozio ad Acilia). Puoi mandare o portare questi denari al mio amico TEODORO PARENTE, Via Monte Vies 4, Isola Sacra, 00054 Fiumicino, Roma tel(06)6584061, telefonino 0338 490221 con il quale ho un conto aperto e ci sentiamo almento due volte al giorno. Ciao enrico Allison J Parent wrote: > > <>It's warped. It's a 386/16 and that's all. > > Lower mhz yes faster never. Faster means a timer error or the program is > broken. The 386 implmentation on that card is very vanilla and no cache. > > Besides it's checkes out on mine at 16 using norton, QAFE+ and a few > others. > > > Whatever you do don't tell my 386sx/33 that! It might stop working. > > < There are several projects going on to have Linux run on 286 and lowe > > Look up ELKS. > > <>Windows 3.1 does run on it with the 1meg. > > Runs good and most software that will fit in 1meg runs ok. Swapping is > heavy though so a fast disk helps. > > 3.0 is ok but it will not run some apps at all! > > > I'm running 6.22 and LW had 5.x on his. > > > Huh? I had 6.22, win3.1, procomm+, and a few other things and had about > 4.5mb free on a 20mb drive. DO5.0 would reduce it some but not alot, 3.3 > would be far smaller and still run w3.1. > > Allison -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Apr 5 15:55:50 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: new hamfest additions Message-ID: for those of you that goto hamfests/radio rallies, here is a tip. if possible, see if you can get in the night before under the premise of "setting up" i actually did buy a table to sell some things, but me and another guy were able to get inthe night before and set up our table and get our tickets. we were also able to scope out other's tables and get the best stuff. unfortunately, i missed out on a table of small hard drives for $4 each, and was a minute late to get a home based robot called robie for $20. (grrrrrr) best thing to do is scan everyone else's things all the time and buy what you see. nobody refused to sell to us. i didnt sell much but here's what i bought: 4 mac adb keyboards, not tested $1 kaypro II with matching printer in great shape with original books and system disks $10 nec scsi card for ps2 $4 apple ][+ with enhanced encoder board, ssc, and videx videoterm with dual floppy drives. also got a box labeled applemouse, but it had 6 mouse cards in it, but no mouses! also got hayes micromodem and dos/pascal manuals. apple cd drive, two scsi cases, one with drive, one blank , $1 each ps2 xga card profile drive, no controller card, may have a lead on two lisas from the guy i got it from. also got some late model things cheap that arent worth mentioning. this may be old hat, but i've noticed that it's worth mentioning you are interested in old computers and are looking for X computer. that's how i got the lead on the lisas. david From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sun Apr 5 17:58:36 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Cadnetix help needed Message-ID: Hi all, I picked up the "Sun" workstation that appeared for free here a couple of weeks back and was pleasantly surprised at the haul, and a little perplexed. What I got: Cadnetix box with big colour monitor Cipher C880 tape unit (Big sucker) CItoh 1550B DM printer A 286 workstation Optical mice/pads and keyboards All the thick-ethernet cabling and hardware for the PC nodes About 30 10" tapes containing schematics for their legacy products About 30 8" diskettes (Dysan!) with really neat 2-pack 3-ring holders About 100 5 1/4" diskettes with SCO stuff on them Since it was supposedly working when pulled, I plugged everything in and just fired it up (Well, I looked into the top of the case first to make sure there wasn't any sign of rust or water damage). So far, nothing. I finally figured out how to get the case apart (very tricky little latch that has to be pulled from the *inside*) and have examined it in more detail. I believe it's a 68020 machine, and the manual says it runs a "Cadnetix-modified" version of Berkley Unix 4.2. There are two large HD's which are extremely inaccessable, but I may have to pull them to look since they make a lot of noise. There is a 6-slot vertical backplane with 4 cards; what I believe is the memory board, the 68020 board, one marked "Graphic Ram J177 Rev C", and one that is attached to the last with ribbon cables. The keyboard plugs into the back of the display and the mouse into the keyboard. Oh yeah, and there are three 5" fans screaming away in there. BTW, it's been powered on for 20 minutes or so with no display. My Sun 3/50 with 12 megs of ram only takes 5. The display is just black, although on power on/off I can see signs of life (red/blue/white lines for an instant). Anyone have any technical info on this monster? I have the system users guide, but no technical data on it whatsoever. Thanks, Aaron PS - I think my wife was thinking divorce when I kept carrying boxes into the house; I don't want to eat my pride and find that I can't get this working.... From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Apr 5 16:04:16 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <24090115.3527f1d2@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-05 14:35:36 EDT, you write: << Has anyone actually seen a 2.88 MB floppy drive? >> certain 95xx ps2 models such as my 9577 and a few older thinkpadss had 2.88 drives. i think i saw some aftermarket 2.88 drives a few years ago, but nothing since. david From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sun Apr 5 18:35:08 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: More Cadnetix notes Message-ID: Ok, I ripped it to pieces. The drives x2 are Micropolis 1325's, connected via an adaptec card: Adaptec Inc. 400041-00A (c) 1985 In the backplane, there are 6 vertical slots. From left to right: 1) 68020 processor board 2) "Graphics Memory" board, with chips that say: Intech 52467 VDAL 0405H vli 601s 01152 vl6845E-23PC syp6845EA 3) The display board? Main chip: LOGIC LMI16DC 0114A 8448 4) Empty 5) Memory 6) Empty I am afraid it may have been cannabalized, with the empty slots and all. The other side of the backplane has all three of these slots interconnected with ribbon cables, and the 6th has what looks like some kind of resistor-pack board on part of the pins. Any clues? An hour of searching on the internet only found resumes of engineers who used it for pcb design. TIA, Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 5 17:02:16 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <199804052202.AA09124@world.std.com> Besides it's checkes out on mine at 16 using norton, QAFE+ and a few <>others. Look up ELKS. <>Windows 3.1 does run on it with the 1meg. <>Runs good and most software that will fit in 1meg runs ok. Swapping is <>heavy though so a fast disk helps. 3.0 is ok but it will not run some apps at all! <3527F426.620EE6BF@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <35281861.6812C17A@bbtel.com> Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > Allora la membrana viene ?15.00 + ?2.00 per l'imballaggio e la spedizione. Si > tratta di una membrana del 49K Spectrum (quello con la tastiera di gomma) > NUOVA di zecca (rimanenza del mio negozio ad Acilia). Huh? From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 5 17:49:29 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <19980405224929.18247.qmail@hotmail.com> >The cached (486) and highly piplined (pentium and friends) are more >variable as the clock speed is only an indicator of performance and if >the code runs with a log of cache misses the speed can really drop to >nothing. I know as the external cache croaked on my 486/25 and I ran >for a bit with the internal cache turned off and the performance was >worse than a 286/12! With the internal cache running it was only about >10% off the performance of the 64k external cache. Just to give you and >idea. Are you saying that a 486 is only faster than a 286 because of the cache? > >Funny I have unix v7 running on a PDP11 with only 256kb of ram. it can be >done. Isn't v7 the latest UNIX distribution? ><><>Windows 3.1 does run on it with the 1meg. ><>Runs good and most software that will fit in 1meg runs ok. Swapping is ><>heavy though so a fast disk helps. I once had an old 386 with a 20MB MFM hard drive and 2MB RAM. Windows ran OK, but Word 2.0 ran very poorly. Strange that I've never seen 3.0. Is it rare? > >IF you mean running netscape, that monster wants a minimum of 8m just to >run and will still crash if pressed. Wordperfect for windows runs great, >as does Word3.0 in 1meg. There are a lot of older packages that run real >well in winders3.1 and 2meg or less. > Actually, Windows 3.0 came with a copy of MS-DOS executive, the precursor to the program manager, while 3.1 didn't. That's not bad, as well as the ability to run real mode programs. >Windoes 3.0 was not widely supported and it was upgraded to 3.1. >Yes I did with help from a few people. The system it's on is a 386DX/33 >with 128k cache and a 420mb IDE and a CDrom. I'm not running X on it as it >only has 8megs and a low end VGA board currently. I'm not that >enthusastic over it as somea re. > > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 5 19:17:19 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: AT MultiProt Comm Card Message-ID: <35281F0F.A04E628E@bbtel.com> I have an IBM AT Multiprotocol Communications Adapter, new, in the original carton, with the original vinyl booklet and 5.25" disk for sale. It's only missing the cable which can easily be made from two 25 pin d-sub connectors (1M, 1F) and a piece of cable. Anyone in the US want or need this? $10 which includes the postage. It goes to the big dumpster in the sky if no one lays claim to it by Friday the 10th. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Apr 5 18:30:02 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find In-Reply-To: <24090115.3527f1d2@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980405183002.006c04c4@pop3.concentric.net> I have 3 of them mounted in IBM 5494 pc controllers. John At 05:04 PM 4/5/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-04-05 14:35:36 EDT, you write: > ><< Has anyone actually seen a 2.88 MB floppy drive? >> > >certain 95xx ps2 models such as my 9577 and a few older thinkpadss had 2.88 >drives. i think i saw some aftermarket 2.88 drives a few years ago, but >nothing since. > >david > > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 5 19:16:56 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Summasketch graphics tablet Message-ID: <19980406001657.14603.qmail@hotmail.com> A while ago, I found a SummaSketch Plus graphics tablet sans the little mouse thing, whatever the official name is. Can I make one, get one REALLY cheap, or operate the thing without one? Also, it hasthree connectors; a serial connector, an RJ-11 connector that I think is for the mouse, and some kind of weird square four-pin connector; what is that for? Do I need some kind of card? NOTE: I do have AutoCAD with the appropriate drivers. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ecloud at bigfoot.com Sun Apr 5 19:34:53 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Summasketch graphics tablet References: <19980406001657.14603.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3528232D.F81EA53@bigfoot.com> > A while ago, I found a SummaSketch Plus graphics tablet sans the > little mouse thing, whatever the official name is. Puck. > Can I make one, > get one REALLY cheap, or operate the thing without one? Also, it Don't know. I bet it emits RF, and the tablet probably has a circuit board with traces running horizontally on one side an vertically on the other. My Dauphin detects the pen in this manner. > hasthree connectors; a serial connector, an RJ-11 connector that > I think is for the mouse, and some kind of weird square four-pin > connector; what is that for? Power? Maybe the circuit board even has silk-screened notations about what voltages go where, if you're lucky. > Do I need some kind of card? I doubt it; I think it was a serial device. You just need a puck. Hang on to it and you'll probably find one some day, if you're the scrounging type (is anyone on this list not... :-)) -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From wheagy at erols.com Sun Apr 5 20:31:22 1998 From: wheagy at erols.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 monitor? Message-ID: <3528306A.4827@erols.com> Hi, I recently picked-up a couple TRS-80 model 1 keyboards, but there was no monitor. Does anyone have info on using a B/W TV as the monitor? I understand that the model 1 monitor was basically a converted TV. Thanks...Win -- Win Heagy wheagy@erols.com From wheagy at erols.com Sun Apr 5 20:35:24 1998 From: wheagy at erols.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: TRS-80 VOXBOX? Message-ID: <3528315C.2BE8@erols.com> I acquired a TRS-80 VOXBOX last week. It is in the original box with cable, interface box, mic, and three casette tapes. I remember when RS was selling these. Has anyone ever used one? Did they actually work? Any historical insight is appreciated. Thanks...Win -- Win Heagy wheagy@erols.com From dastar at wco.com Sun Apr 5 20:37:34 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: More cool stuff Message-ID: Well, today's hunting turned up some good stuff. A Tandy 100 with manual for $15. A compact Monolithic Systems rack-mount computer. It's multi-bus based with a Z-80 CPU. It came with complete manuals, an extender card, a dual 8" drive unit, and a couple 2716/2764 (or was that 2704/2716?) EPROM programmer cards. I also got the Teletype ASR-33 that was used with this system. It had a stand, a current loop to RS-232 converter, and the complete manual set (including service manuals). The complete setup for $45. I then happened upon an AIM 65 authentically mounted to a piece of plywood. This was an amazing find in that I got the original box with all the manuals and sales literature (with technical specs). This unit also came with the optional BASIC ROMs. The manuals included were: BASIC Language Reference Manual 8K BASIC Reference Card R6500 Hardware Manual R6500 Programming Manual R6500 Users Guide AUM-65 Summary Card Also in the box was a fold-out schematic for the AIM-65 and the warranty card. Much thanks to Frank McConnell & Company for not engaging me in a bidding war over this as we discovered it at the same time. I got this for $40. The same guy also had a very rare Morrow portable I'd been searching out for a long time. A local surplus shop has one but refuses to sell it to me because they claim all their original records were stored on it. No attempt at begging or coercion would get them to sell it to me, so it was nice to finally find one. Its a portable made by Morrow which runs CP/M. I think the model is a C3P. It has two 5.25" HH floppies and a funky-looking wide screen. The guy also threw in a complete run of BAMDUA (Bay Area Micro Decision User's Group) which was a newsletter for the Morrow Micro-Decision here in the Bay Area. Also a complete run of "Morrow Owner's Review", which was a Morrow magazine for users of the Micro-Decision. Oddly enough the magazine ceased publication as late as December 1987 (I would've thought it would have ceased well before that). I also got a photo-copied service manual for the Micro-Decision which is cool since I have a flaky MD-2 that needs attention. Plus a bunch of 5.25" disks, some books (Best of Micro Vol. II & III, Ciarca's Circuit Cellar Vol. III) and some Morrow and Kaypro marketing literature. This was another $39. I also got the Sept. 83 issue of Byte from which I culled these interesting tibits: The editorial on page 4 covered the issue of FAA regulations banning the use of portables on airline flights. I wonder when this ban was overturned? Its interesting in that it mirrors the same concern over cellular phones interfering with air-to-ground communications, all of which is a bunch of hooey. Page 12 had a letter from a reader concerned about the proliferation of mice as a pointing device. "I am sorry to see Apple, Visicorp, and possibly Microsoft jump onto the Xerox bandwagon and introduce a mouse into their new integrated computing software," he writes. "The mouse is an inherently bad pointing device for at least three reasons: it consumes one to two square feet of flat desk space; it requires users to move their hands one to two feet from the keyboard in order to point at a screen object; and, because the mouse is not in a fixed place relative to the keyboard, users must look away from their work to find the mouse whenever it is to be used." He then goes on to espouse the virtues of a trackball. Needless to say I'm sure this guy died off with CP/M :) In an article on portables, an inline quote says, "Any computer can be transportable if you have a big enough truck." Ladies & Gentlemen, finally a definition of "portable". Lastly, there's an article for an S-100 PC, of all things. IBM compatibility in an S-100 bus. The funny thing is the article promises "with its S100 bus expansion capability, your system will never be outdated." How ironic :) A couple other things I got included a Voice Processing module for the strange Convergent Technologies system I have ($1) and an 8080/8085 emulator (circa 1984) in a hard-shelled carrying case ($20). I managed to find room in the garage to store the new stuff, but I don't know how much longer I can hold out. You'd think a 3-car garage would hold more. I guess the pool table will have to go soon. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From wheagy at erols.com Sun Apr 5 20:42:20 1998 From: wheagy at erols.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Stringy Floppy? Message-ID: <352832FC.63D7@erols.com> One other item I recently acquired that I thought I'd ask about. Ever hear of the Exatron Stringy Floppy mass storage system? The one I have was apparently used with a TRS-80 model 1. But it had a brochure that said it was available for S-100 and 6800 systems. It is a minature tape system...the tapes look like very small casette tapes. The tapes/waffers apparently come in different sizes with a 5 foot length holding about 4k. Anyone ever use one? Seems pretty interesting. Thanks...Win -- Win Heagy wheagy@erols.com From dastar at wco.com Sun Apr 5 20:49:30 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Stringy Floppy? In-Reply-To: <352832FC.63D7@erols.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, Win Heagy wrote: > One other item I recently acquired that I thought I'd ask about. > Ever hear of the Exatron Stringy Floppy mass storage system? The > one I have was apparently used with a TRS-80 model 1. But it had > a brochure that said it was available for S-100 and 6800 systems. > It is a minature tape system...the tapes look like very small > casette tapes. The tapes/waffers apparently come in different > sizes with a 5 foot length holding about 4k. Anyone ever use one? > Seems pretty interesting. I have a couple of the tapes but don't have the drive. This was another ill-conceived mass storage system. If I'm not mistaken they were endless-loop? Doug Coward (dcoward@pressstart.com) knows more about these than I do. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From gram at cnct.com Sun Apr 5 21:31:02 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find References: <199804052202.AA09124@world.std.com> Message-ID: <35283E66.49A465D1@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > Funny I have unix v7 running on a PDP11 with only 256kb of ram. it can be > done. Damned straight. I installed hundreds of TRS-80 Model 16s with 256k running the v7 equivalent Xenix. Admittedly, more memory helped a _lot_, but three users could cheerfully run their RealWorld bookkeeping software on that system with a 12 Meg hard drive. Yes, it was text-based -- who the hell needs an accounting system with graphics except for making pretty pictures for management who can't read text but can see whether a line of one color is above or below one of another color. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sun Apr 5 21:34:36 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find References: <19980405224929.18247.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35283F3C.86173773@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > Isn't v7 the latest UNIX distribution? Well, there are those (not me) who consider v7 the last _One True_ UNIX distribution. After that things started to fragment. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sun Apr 5 21:42:24 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: SCSI Termination References: Message-ID: <35284110.D71215B3@cnct.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > It is a VAXstation 3100 m30, however based on earlier posts, and some close > examination of the external socket (it looks like it's never had a > terminator). I went ahead and gave it a try. It's chugging along nicely > behind me right now, and I had it up most of last night. The only problem > I've had so far was hitting the CTRL-S on the VT420 and locking it up (this > was only a problem because I didn't realize I'd done it so I didn't do the > CTRL-Q). That was a problem I had back when I was teaching Xenix operations to Tandy customers -- how to connect some control codes to the real world. My usual mnemonic for my students was "Ctrl-S meand stop, Ctrl-Q means Qontinue. (If only the ancients had swapped the functions of Ctrl-C and Ctrl-Q, in which it would have been a simple Continue or Quit -- much easier for brain damaged students to remember). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sun Apr 5 21:47:12 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Math coprocessors References: <19980405191759.14995.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35284230.76F2064B@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > I found a PS/2 Model 70 recently, which would normally have a 386, > but the previous owner installed a Cyrix 486 upgrade chip. Does > anyone know if I can use a 386 math coprocessor with this? I want > to run AutoCAD. The i486 has a coprocessor built in, I assume that the Cyrix does as well. Try the software. IIRC, AutoCAD doesn't _require_ a math coprocessor, but one does help performance by an order or two of magnitude on a 386. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 5 21:48:44 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find Message-ID: <199804060248.AA26870@world.std.com> Funny I have unix v7 running on a PDP11 with only 256kb of ram. it can Message-ID: <35284478.81C34CF@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > I managed to find room in the garage to store the new stuff, but I don't > know how much longer I can hold out. You'd think a 3-car garage would > hold more. I guess the pool table will have to go soon. Nah, a pool table can be a good solid workbench if you nail on a few AC outlets. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Sun Apr 5 22:07:23 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: TRS-80 VOXBOX? References: <199804060249.AA27062@world.std.com> Message-ID: <352846EB.2A5B4466@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > < > > It speaks, classic mechanical sounding speech. Rather fun to play with. The VoxBox was voice input, not output. I never actually saw one in action, they were being discontinued about the time I joined Tandy in late '80. The voice synthesizer was another story, they worked much better than most folks would expect. Unfortunately, both devices were _strictly_ for the Model One, there was never a way to attach either to a Model 3 or later system -- the voice synthesizer for example was tied to a specific area of video RAM and would output what was sent there by a "PRINT @" statement. Rather hard to integrate with packaged software. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From cad at gamewood.net Sun Apr 5 23:07:09 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: AT MultiProt Comm Card References: <35281F0F.A04E628E@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <352854ED.5B89@gamewood.net> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > I have an IBM AT Multiprotocol Communications Adapter, new, in the > original carton, with the original vinyl booklet and 5.25" disk for > sale. It's only missing the cable which can easily be made from two 25 > pin d-sub connectors (1M, 1F) and a piece of cable. > > Anyone in the US want or need this? $10 which includes the postage. It > goes to the big dumpster in the sky if no one lays claim to it by Friday > the 10th. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ # 1714857 > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Russ: If nobody else asks. I'll commit to $10 -- Give it a few days, and if nobody else hollars, let me know. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From naamato at merit.edu Sun Apr 5 23:44:35 1998 From: naamato at merit.edu (Nick Amato) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Minix [Nice Find] In-Reply-To: <199804060248.AA26870@world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 10:48:44PM -0400 References: <199804060248.AA26870@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19980406004435.25770@merit.edu> With this talk about finding a quasi-useful OS to run on older machines (a small linux) I might suggest that you take a look at Minix: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/minix.html A project from the venerable Andrew Tanenbaum, whose books most of us are familiar with. 1.5 was ported to many platforms (Atari, Macintosh, some others) and 2.0 runs on an 8088 to a Pentium. It's rather neat. Nick From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 5 23:37:17 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - Virtual Garage Sale Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980405213717.008879e0@agora.rdrop.com> Well... I find myself on the virge of a major equipment aquisition and development project, and it has become painfully obvious (as I fall over things trying to map out space) that I need to free up some major space in both the Computer Garage and warehouse. So, I offer up the first Computer Garage 'Virtual Garage Sale'. (since it always grates me when I see a posting from someone about their latest Ebay auction rather than letting the group have a first shot) The Garage rules are fairly simple: (tho rambling) 1) The sale will run for one calendar week. After that any items not spoken for will most likely end up in an auction on Ebay. 2) All items are to be considered complete, but untested unless specified in its listing. 3) Documentation is not included. I have docs on many of the items (somewhere in the archives), but if I have to find them it will add $5.00 to the cost of the item. 4) Shipping is not included. Figure $5.00 for most (small) items such as S-100 boards and such. Larger (heavier) items will ship at prevailing UPS rates plus cost of packaging. If you are close enough (to Oregon) to pick things up, all the better (and cheaper) 5) To claim an item, respond by email. I must receive payment for the item (plus applicable shipping) within seven business days (weekends don't count) from the time I confirm your request or the item will be released for the next inquiry or to go into the auction. Orders paid by check will held for five business days, orders paid by bank or Postal Money Order will be shipped as soon as possible. 6) In the event that multiple people request the same item, the message that arrives first will get the first shot. 7) All descriptions reflect as much information as I have on the items at the moment, and usually reflect their manufacturer's designation or model number. If you don't know what it is, ASK! If possible/practical, I'll try to get more information/details. Once you have it, it is yours. If it is not what you thought it was, you had your chance. 8) Trade offers may be considered (see my web page for the wish list) but it would have to be a good one! (now, if you have contacts in the bowling equipment industry, send me an email and lets talk) 9) Prices on items are not (firmly) cast in concrete, but let's not get too ridiculous. Offers will be considered, remember I'm trying to make space as much as money, but Ebay lurks. Price are per item. There are multiples of some items. (and all price flames direct to /dev/null) If you want a bidding war, wait for the auction. 10) All sales are final. There will likely be more items to follow, but this is what I could get to/catalog this weekend... Now... On to the list! ============================================================================ ======= S-100 compatable items qty. 1 - CompuPro (Godbout) CPU 86/86 - $35.00 qty. 1 - CompuPro RAM 17 - $35.00 qty. 1 - CompuPro System Support 1 - $35.00 qty. 3 - CompuPro RAM 22 - $45.00 qty. 1 - CompuPro NET 100A - $50.00 qty. 2 - CompuPro Disk 1 - $30.00 qty. 1 - CompuPro disk 1A - $35.00 qty. 1 - CompuPro SPIO - #25.00 qty. 1 - CompuPro SP186 - $35.00 qty. 1 - CompuPro Interfacer 3+ - $30.00 qty. 1 - CompuPro Interfacer 4+ - $35.00 qty. 2 - CompuPro CPU 8085/88 - $35.00 qty. 4 - CompuPro 20 slot shielded/terminated S-100 motherboards (with all connectors) - $50.00 qty. 1 - Teletek SBC-1 (single board computer) - $25.00 qty. 1 - Teletek SBC-1 (socketed board, no components) - $5.00 qty. 2 - CCT Printerfacer 1 (printer interface/buffer) - $25.00 qty. 1 - Konan DCG100 hard drive controller - $35.00 qty. 1 - California Computer Corp. Modem 2501A 12 slot shielded S-100 motherboard (with all connectors) - $25.00 qty. 1 - S-100 rack mount chassis (mfgr. unknown) - $40.00 ============================================================================ ======= Computers qty. 1 - DEC VAXstation 3540 (badged as a 3520, but has 2nd CPU board.) memory, no drives, drive/console cabling missing, dress panel missing, tower cabinet - $150.00 qty. 2 - DEC DECstation 2100 - $45.00 qty. 2 - Altos Model 580 - $40.00 qty. 2 - Altos Model 586 - $45.00 qty. 1 - Bell & Howell (Black) Apple ][+ - $45.00 qty. 1 - Compaq Deskpro 386/20e - $20.00 qty. 1 - Compaq Deskpro 433i - $30.00 ============================================================================ ======= Disk Drives qty. 2 - DEC Storage Expantion Units (matching cabinets to the DECstations) with (I believe) two RZ24 drives in each - $40.00 qty. 2 - DEC Storage Expantion Units (VAXstation 2000 style cabinets) with one RZ55 drive in each) - $30.00 qty. 1 - NEC Disk Unit PC-8881 (single 8 inch drive in cabinet) - $15.00 qty. 1 - Fujitsu dual 5.25 inch drive unit Model MB27611 (appears to have some type of interface/controller board mounted in cabinet) - $15.00 ============================================================================ ======= Misc. qty. 1 - Black Box HPIB (IEEE-488) AB Switch - $10.00 qty. 1 - ICS Electronics Model 4880 Instrument Controller - $20.00 qty. 3 - Qume QVT101 Video Terminals - $20.00 qty. 1 - Tektronix Model 650 Studio Video Monitor - $50.00 qty. 1 - Compaq docking station (if there is any interest, I'll try to get the model number) - $10.00 qty. 1 - DEC VAX 11/750 backplane (with or without card cage) - $25.00 qty. 1 - DEC VAX 11/750 power supply (H7104-C) - $20.00 qty. 1 - DEC VAX 11/750 power supply (H7104-D) - $20.00 qty. 1 - DEC VAX 11/750 power controller (875A) - $20.00 qty. 1 - DEC LN03 Laser Printer - $20.00 qty. (lots) - 5.25 inch diskettes DD or HD, mixed soft sector/hard sector. (specify your needs, I'll see what I've got) - $0.10 ============================================================================ ======= Let the crazyness begin... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From maynard at jmg.com Mon Apr 6 01:35:48 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Stringy Floppy? In-Reply-To: <352832FC.63D7@erols.com> (message from Win Heagy on Sun, 05 Apr 1998 21:42:20 -0400) References: <352832FC.63D7@erols.com> Message-ID: <199804060635.CAA26716@mr-gateway.internal.net> Yup, I used to own one of those. I've got a model 1 without EI here... still looking for an EI. The tapes are closed loop cartridges, which as I remember, hold about 50K or so. They are almost as fast as the old single density Shugart 5 1/4" drive RS used to sell. I bought it at about the age of 12 in 1980... _loved_ it until I could afford an EI and floppies. Take care of those tapes as I doubt you could find replacements.... --jmg > Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 21:42:20 -0400 > From: Win Heagy > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Stringy Floppy? > > One other item I recently acquired that I thought I'd ask about. > Ever hear of the Exatron Stringy Floppy mass storage system? The > one I have was apparently used with a TRS-80 model 1. But it had > a brochure that said it was available for S-100 and 6800 systems. > It is a minature tape system...the tapes look like very small > casette tapes. The tapes/waffers apparently come in different > sizes with a 5 foot length holding about 4k. Anyone ever use one? > Seems pretty interesting. > > Thanks...Win > > -- > Win Heagy > wheagy@erols.com > From afritz at iname.com Mon Apr 6 00:05:54 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - Virtual Garage Sale In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980405213717.008879e0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: ---------- Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com http://www.afritz.base.org ---------- From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 6 01:09:48 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - Virtual Garage Sale In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980405213717.008879e0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: >qty. 1 - DEC VAXstation 3540 (badged as a 3520, but has 2nd CPU board.) > memory, no drives, drive/console cabling missing, dress panel > missing, tower cabinet - $150.00 > >qty. 2 - DEC DECstation 2100 - $45.00 >qty. 1 - Bell & Howell (Black) Apple ][+ - $45.00 >qty. 2 - DEC Storage Expantion Units (matching cabinets to the DECstations) > with (I believe) two RZ24 drives in each - $40.00 > >qty. 2 - DEC Storage Expantion Units (VAXstation 2000 style cabinets) with > one RZ55 drive in each) - $30.00 Jim, Is this stuff still available? I would like the expansion units, and the Bell and Howell (if it's all there). I'm also interest VAXstation and maybe the DECstations (are the DECstations running anything). Do you by any chance have cables to hook the Expansion units up to a VS3100m30? I'm local as you might recall (Aloha), and can pick them up this week (if not minutes after getting the work :^). What can I say, as of this weekend I find myself really needing an expansion cabinet. Also do you have any interesting DEC documentation you want to get rid of? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 6 00:57:04 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find In-Reply-To: <35283F3C.86173773@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Apr 5, 98 10:34:36 pm Message-ID: <199804060557.BAA15737@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Ward Donald Griffiths III once stated: > > Max Eskin wrote: > > > Isn't v7 the latest UNIX distribution? > > Well, there are those (not me) who consider v7 the last _One True_ > UNIX distribution. After that things started to fragment. And there are those (me) who consider that if a feature wasn't in UNIX V7, then it isn't supported that well, nor will it ever be supported well (like, oh, network file systems, terminal support, semaphores, threads, etc etc) -spc (Sometimes suspect it might be V6 ... ) From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 6 02:27:27 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: VT 131 FS Message-ID: <352883DF.65D15789@bbtel.com> I have a newly acquired DEC VT 131 with keyboard to get rid of. In great physical shape, untested working condition. I'll know more about the electrical condition. Whether working or not I need $15 plus shipping for this unit. I need to weigh it as well but wanted to give everyone a chance to mull it over and have a chance to inquire while I check on the working condition and weight. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Apr 5 01:09:58 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Minix [Nice Find] In-Reply-To: <19980406004435.25770@merit.edu> References: <199804060248.AA26870@world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 10:48:44PM -0400 Message-ID: <199804061211.IAA09994@smtp.interlog.com> On 6 Apr 98 at 0:44, Nick Amato wrote: > > > With this talk about finding a quasi-useful OS to run on > older machines (a small linux) I might suggest that you > take a look at Minix: > > http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/minix.html > > A project from the venerable Andrew Tanenbaum, whose books > most of us are familiar with. > > 1.5 was ported to many platforms (Atari, Macintosh, some others) > and 2.0 runs on an 8088 to a Pentium. It's rather neat. > > > Nick > The Atari port was used for the first Atari attempt at a browser and proved very difficult to install for most. I think it was also tried for multitasking on the ST I'll have to take a look at it. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Apr 5 01:09:59 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find In-Reply-To: <199804051720.AA14409@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199804061211.IAA10000@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Apr 98 at 13:20, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <> Would a SCSI card be an option so I could put in 1.2 and/or 1.44 fdds > > HUH? Neither of these are an helped/hindered by the 386. SCSI is not > needed to run 1.44/1.2 FDDs. You can put scsi in there even when it was > an plain xt. To run the bigger floppies you need a controller that will, > most XT controllers will not. JDR and JAMCO sell a board that will do up > to 2.88 drives in a XT slot. > > FYI I've hacked the leading edge (xt) I have to include most of what you > mention including a 20meg WD hardcard. It's MONO/herc, 20meg hardcard, > 1.44 floppy, multi-IO (two serial, two LPT, game). Runs dos6.22 > and I've had windows3.1 to prove it runs. > > Allison > The idea behind the SCSI card is to run larger fdds internally and also a EZ135 ext. that I use now on several different platforms (Atarias , Mac, PC, etc.) as needed . I could also chain other peripherals. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Apr 5 01:10:00 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Nice Find In-Reply-To: <199804051517.AA28933@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199804061211.IAA10006@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Apr 98 at 11:17, Allison J Parent wrote: > > < Inboard 386 PC > < Vers 1.1 02/17/89 > < Intel Corporation > > Same beast I have in my Leading Edge XT. > It has a socket for a coprocesser did you try that upgrade ? They're pretty cheap now. > < Of course I quickly pop it open No HD !!?? > > Don't lose those files! > Yeah, I pulled every thing that looked like a file belonging to the H-C and the intel and backed up on disk. > <20mhz ( don't know how accurate Snoop's bench is but this sure beats an X > > It's warped. It's a 386/16 and that's all. > Suspected as much I imagine Snoop gives just a general idea of it. > < I was blown away I didn't think an XT much less a PC could be upgraded > > That's been going on for a while and there was a AT (286) version as well. > > < The possibilities are interesting. I'm wondering if I could beef up the > > IF it's ISA-8 you likely can. > Any sources for this card ? I'll do a search on the net but several people mentioned a 3270 card the last while on this list. > < It would be neat if I could run Linux on it. > No way! All the ram you have is the 1meg on the inboard and I think it > used the 256k (maximum) on the mother as expanded mem. If yu can find the > memory card that piggy backs to it you can add either a meg or maybe two > to it. Nomantter what linux in less than 4meg would be poor and > completely unrunable in under 2mb. > Oh well, I guess it's back to planning the Linux install on my 10 meg 8580 Ps/2. > Windows 3.1 does run on it with the 1meg. I've got 3.1 running on a 1 meg PS/1 2011 with MSWorks , I find Wintel boring. I want something a little more interesting. Maybe I'll put GEM on it. > Allison ciao (is this what set Enrico off ? ) larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Apr 5 01:09:57 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: More cool stuff In-Reply-To: <35284478.81C34CF@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199804061211.IAA10015@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Apr 98 at 22:56, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > I managed to find room in the garage to store the new stuff, but I don't > > know how much longer I can hold out. You'd think a 3-car garage would > > hold more. I guess the pool table will have to go soon. > > Nah, a pool table can be a good solid workbench if you nail on a few > AC outlets. > -- A musician friend of mine had a fitted foam mattress pad made for his beloved full-sized Brunswick cause many times the space he was living in wouldn't have enough room for the table and a bed. Never had any back pains except when he had to move. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From Guerney at uq.net.au Mon Apr 6 07:44:19 1998 From: Guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:10 2005 Subject: Dick Smith System 80 S-100 Expansion Connections Message-ID: <004101bd6159$bdf86c40$32f665cb@eve> I have just bought an almost-new condition fully kitted out Dick Smith System 80 - this was an Australian-sold clone of the TRS-80. The system consists of a console with included tape player, an S-100 expansion box and two 200K 5.25" floppy drives. The receipt dated September 1982 was in one of the boxes (all original packing) along with all connectors. The expansion box contains an extra 32K RAM (total 48K) and connecting cables to the main system, the two drives (each one a separate stock item, one "Disk 0" and the other "Disk 1") and to a Centronics printer. Price asked in a charity shop was $10 each for the two big boxes and $5 each for the two drives. Not too bad, and you can't argue too much when the money is going to a good cause! But absolutely no documentation. The basic system works OK. What I want to know is how to connect up the expansion box to the main box and the drives. The connecting cables are standard flat multi-strand cable with the Pin 1 side marked in red. But which is Pin 1 at the connection blocks? I don't want to kill this beautifully clean unit by connecting it up backwards! If someone could tell me which end of each of the connection blocks on the back of the console, on the S-100 box and on the disk drives is the Pin 1 end, I would be grateful. Phil From Guerney at uq.net.au Mon Apr 6 08:06:01 1998 From: Guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Dick Smith System 80 S-100 Expansion Connections Message-ID: <00c001bd615c$c8ae6600$32f665cb@eve> re my own message: In a search of comp.sys.tandy I have found that the Dick Smith System 80 (TRS-80 Model 1 clone) was known as the PMC-80/81 in the US if that helps. Phil From jharper at bs2000.com Mon Apr 6 08:24:59 1998 From: jharper at bs2000.com (Jack Harper) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: IMSAI woes In-Reply-To: <352691B0.360D@gamewood.net> References: <199804040832.AAA02729@u1.netgate.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980406072459.00d8f9f8@teal.csn.net> At 15:01 4/4/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>Seth J. Morabito wrote: >> >> The power supply seems to be worst off of everything. The boards, >> although needing to be cleaned of some spots of mildew, seem mostly OK. >> Possibly a few tiny rust spots -- I'd say 100% of the chips are replacable >> by easily-found parts, either period pieces or newer pieces. But probably >> 99% of the chips won't need replacing. They seem to be doing very well. >> I have two Cromemco ZPU boards, so even if one has some bad parts, >> I should be able to take spares from the other. >> > >> But that power supply... eek. The transformer is covered in a thick layer >> of rust, and the whole thing just looks dirty and mildewed. > Hello Seth -- regarding the rusted transformer, I have found over the years that "Hoppe's Gun Powder Solvent", of all things, with Q-tips works very well for such items -- Hoppe's is a mixture, so I have been told, of bananna oil, kerosine, and ammonia. The ammonia works as a solvent while the bananna oil and kerosine also clean but leave behind a light oil that keeps further rust from forming. You can find the stuff at any respectable dealer that sells target shooting gear and the like. Also -- you can bask in the gentle radiated odor of ammonia, bananna oil, and kerosine as your favorite computer warms up -- it actually is kind of nice. Regards Jack BTW -- see http://www.bs2000.com/talos/vintage.htm for a photograph of my ancient vacuum tube radio gear that I have restored over the years -- when powered up, close to 100 vacuum tubes come alive -- all smelling of ammonia, bananna oil, and kerosine -- ahhh the glory of it all... :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper Bank Systems 2000, Inc. 303-277-1892 Golden, Colorado USA "21st Century Financial Applications" Optical Cards for Bank, EBT, and Medical Applications Visit our Web Page: http://www.bs2000.com/talos (Last Update: 970902) --------------------------------------------------------------------- From jharper at bs2000.com Mon Apr 6 08:56:01 1998 From: jharper at bs2000.com (Jack Harper) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980406075601.00d5696c@teal.csn.net> Hello all... A couple of weeks ago, I put out an e-mail to the List that mentioned that a friend had given a DEC PDP-11/70 (or so he thought) to me that had been 'hardened' by Schlumberger for use in the oil patch. The machine supposedly works and weighs close to 200 lbs. The oldest board claims, I think, to have been built in late 1978. I know practically nothing about the PDP series and so don't have the foggiest as to what I really have. Finally, over the weekend, I was able to open the box (1/4" armored steel ugly thing) and take a look at the boards -- there are a total of ten as follows: (Keep in mind that I don't know what typical DEC parts numbers look like -- I think that a lot of the numbers that I wrote down are actually production lots etc): (1): Obviously a CPU board -- AH13Z-06. Also claims DEC P/N 1216988. Has a 15MHz crystal and is 15.5x8" in size. It has edge connectors (as do all of the boards). (2): 'Bootstrap Terminator' - DEC-81. 5013263C-P2. 8x5". (3): 'Flip Chip" 5008691 PCC-1Vo. 2.5x2". This is some sort of jumper board. (4): 4MB(?) DRAM. DEC P/N 1216988 (notice that this is the same p/n as the CPU board -- that is, I suppose?, the system part number), A88D30824 RA1-RA3: RM8-3.3Kx3 (probably a component label for a resistor pack but not sure); C:TD104/5DX92 AH12Z-12. 15.5x8". (5-9): H-236341 EXT BRD 10.5x8". These appear to be extendor boards that bring +15VDC and a few timing signals out to the edge of the cage -- why there are five, I cannot imagine... (10): "FLIP CHIP". FEB 78 SCO/R1L OPTION M7856 H236602 -01048. 10.5x8" This appears(?) to be possibly an I/O controller board of some sort... Does anyone have any idea of what these things came out of? They are free to a good home -- preferably someone that can actually use them and put them back to work (can you imagine how boring it would be to madly process seismographic data for 20-years -- I bet they would like to try something different for a change) (postage + packing costs). Regards Jack Harper (Friend to all things Symbolics) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper Bank Systems 2000, Inc. 303-277-1892 Golden, Colorado USA "21st Century Financial Applications" Optical Cards for Bank, EBT, and Medical Applications Visit our Web Page: http://www.bs2000.com/talos (Last Update: 970902) --------------------------------------------------------------------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Apr 6 10:41:37 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980406075601.00d5696c@teal.csn.net> from "Jack Harper" at Apr 6, 98 07:56:01 am Message-ID: <9804061441.AA28326@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4091 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/1fcef993/attachment.ksh From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Apr 6 10:19:18 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - Virtual Garage Sale Message-ID: <003501bd616f$769ff320$446fbcc1@hotze> >qty. 1 - Compaq Deskpro 386/20e - $20.00 > >qty. 1 - Compaq Deskpro 433i - $30.00 OK... are either of these spoken for? Do you know the stats for these? How much RAM, HDD (if any) space, disk drives, etc, and does that include a monitor? (And, if you can find it, what is the video card, etc.) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From aaron at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 6 12:53:49 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: <9804061441.AA28326@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Can you at least look at some of the date codes on the chips? (Would > it be useful if I prepared a brief lesson on "how to read date codes"? > I have to admit that it's pretty obvious to me, and I often don't > understand how someone can look at a board and not just innately know > how old it is because of the date codes blatantly stamped on most > of the chips.) Things like that should be part of the faq. Aaron From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Apr 6 11:00:42 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Apr 6, 98 10:53:49 am Message-ID: <199804061600.JAA06959@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi: Date codes are stamped on just about every IC, and some other parts too. They are generally a four digit number of the form YYWW, where YY is the last two digits of the year in which the chip was munfactured and WW the week number, from 01 through 52. Examples would be "7830" for the 30th week of 1978, and "8101" for the first week of January 1981. Generally for the old machines we talk about on this list, the chip type code is easy to differentiate from the date code, because of the prevalence of 7400-series TTL chips. Any 74xx or 54xx number will be the chip type, while the other number will be the date code. This helps to determine a general time frame for manufacture of the board, at least you can tell generally within a small time frame when it was manufactured, as big manufacturers like DEC didn't stockpile chips before stuffing boards with them. Hope this helps. If someone wants to snip this and add it to the FAQ then, barring a more complete response, this would help other new users! Kevin > > > > On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > Can you at least look at some of the date codes on the chips? (Would > > it be useful if I prepared a brief lesson on "how to read date codes"? > > I have to admit that it's pretty obvious to me, and I often don't > > understand how someone can look at a board and not just innately know > > how old it is because of the date codes blatantly stamped on most > > of the chips.) > > Things like that should be part of the faq. > > Aaron > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Apr 6 12:44:08 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: <9803068919.AA891909991@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > At 07:48 PM 4/2/98 -0600, you wrote: > >* I'll return or destroy any personal data I find on a machine I acquire. > > change to: > > ...acquire, keeping it in the strictest confidence should I find it > necessary to view it. > > or something like that. I would also substitute "personal or commercially sensitive data" in this rule. Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Apr 6 12:50:23 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... Message-ID: <9803068919.AA891910351@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Date codes are stamped on just about every IC, and some other parts too. > > They are generally a four digit number of the form YYWW, where YY is the > last two digits of the year in which the chip was munfactured and WW the > week number, from 01 through 52. > > Examples would be "7830" for the 30th week of 1978, and "8101" for the > first week of January 1981. > > Generally for the old machines we talk about on this list, the chip type > code is easy to differentiate from the date code, because of the > prevalence of 7400-series TTL chips. Any 74xx or 54xx number will be the > chip type, while the other number will be the date code. I learnt this one in a DEC PDP11-05. The chips are TTL - 74xx not 74LSxx or anything else - and almost every date code is in 1974. (i.e. also 74xx). The trick is that the chip no. usually has manufacturers name codes, package codes etc. embedded, e.g. SN7400N for one of the TI packages (I forget which!), while the date code in my experience never does. Be warned! I read somewhere (Horowitz and Hill?) that many distributors got this wrong in 1974 and shipped the wrong chips... Philip. From peacock at simconv.com Mon Apr 6 13:40:25 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Math coprocessors Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A80C35F7@mail.simconv.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Max Eskin wrote: > > > > I found a PS/2 Model 70 recently, which would normally have a 386, > > but the previous owner installed a Cyrix 486 upgrade chip. Does > > anyone know if I can use a 386 math coprocessor with this? I want > > to run AutoCAD. > > The i486 has a coprocessor built in, I assume that the Cyrix does > as well. Try the software. IIRC, AutoCAD doesn't _require_ a math > coprocessor, but one does help performance by an order or two of > magnitude on a 386. > -- No, the Cyrix 486DL (I assume it is a DL or DR2 if it's in a 386 motherboard) is not the same as an Intel 486. The Cyrix 486DL was an upgrade CPU for the 386 pinout, adding a 486 instruction set and 1K internal cache. The 486DR2 version was clock doubled. These CPUs do not have floating point. Generally an Intel 80387 did not work reliably, but the Cyrix 487 co-processor did. ULSI (and I think IIT) also made 487s. You can try the Intel 387, sometimes they ran ok, mostly it depended on the speed range used. Jack Peacock From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Apr 6 14:45:34 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: mountain computer? Message-ID: <49b7cbc4.352930e0@aol.com> got a card labeled SUPERTALKER II by mountain computer. i've heard of the company, but not of the card. seems to be speech synthesis or similar. web search on the company and the card brought up nothing. anyone have more info? david From red at bears.org Mon Apr 6 14:54:10 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Nice Find In-Reply-To: <19980405183423.5285.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Has anyone actually seen a 2.88 MB floppy drive? All NeXT floppy drives are of the 2.88 MB (ED) flavour. ok r. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Apr 6 16:31:00 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: RL02 problem #1 resolved. Message-ID: <13345723915.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> About the fisrst RL02 spin problem: THere's a small rubber button that pushed the pack cover detector too see if you have the pack cover in. That button had become depressed over time by pressure. I fitted a washer around the rubber plug to stick it out more. Now the drive spins up normally and it doesn't need me to weight the lid. ------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Apr 6 16:41:08 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: RS 102 In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980403113135.418722fc@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980406164108.2f4ff54e@intellistar.net> At 10:03 PM 4/3/98 -0600, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 03:57 PM 4/2/98, you wrote: >> Actually the machines are the same size. The PF keys are deeper on the > >Um, no... The 102 is thinner than the 100. That's one of the photos I Looks like you're right. They look the same but here's actual size and weights. Depth x Width x Thickness Weight model 100 8.43 x 11.71 x 2.04 inches 1602.5 grams model 102 8.44 x 11.73 x 1.68 inches 1392.0 grams I should have said the most *noticeable* difference is the depth of the pF keys. 0.242 on the model 102 vs. 0.155 on the model 100. There are some subtle differences like the shape of the keys but they're not as obvious as the size of the pF keys. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 6 10:37:36 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: <199804061600.JAA06959@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Apr 6, 98 09:00:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 441 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/d7a245b6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 6 09:06:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Summasketch graphics tablet In-Reply-To: <3528232D.F81EA53@bigfoot.com> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Apr 5, 98 05:34:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1831 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/a3758cd6/attachment.ksh From gzozman at escape.ca Mon Apr 6 17:38:06 1998 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Dick Smith System 80 S-100 Expansion Connections References: <00c001bd615c$c8ae6600$32f665cb@eve> Message-ID: <3529594E.F7F7C0B0@escape.ca> While we are on the subject of TRS-80 Model 1 clones, has anyone heard of a computer which looks exactly like the early Model 1 (no numeric keypad), but with a large "E2" logo where the TRS-80 logo usually is? I have seen a book with this computer on the cover, but the book does not identify it. What is it, and who made it? Thanks Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca Phil Guerney wrote: > re my own message: > > In a search of comp.sys.tandy I have found that the Dick Smith System 80 > (TRS-80 Model 1 clone) was known as the PMC-80/81 in the US if that helps. > > Phil From aaron at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 6 19:51:11 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: from Cadnetix to IBM.... Message-ID: Well, The prognosis is not good for the Cadnetix system. I have tracked down a couple of engineers from the original company (Which was bought by Daisy, bankrupted, and bought by Intergraph) working at various places and no one seems to be able to help. The two most common responses are first that I am some kind of lunatic for wanting to get a proprietary circuit-design workstation running, and second that any and all technical/engineering documents for all Cadnetix hardware is compost in a Colorado landfill. One of the binders that I grabbed with the system was the maintenance record, and tells a dismal tale of constant board replacements for various failures (no wonder they went broke), including a description for what is happening now. The final result that time? After replacing the drives, replacing all of the boards, and checking all jumpers and cabling, Cadnetix just shipped out a newer unit to replace it. Oh well. One interesting note is that this document has some monetary figures on it; this company was paying over $16K a year to lease a 68020 with 4megs of ram and 240megs of storage (2 80meg HD's and the 80meg Cipher), circa 1986. I was told by one legacy dealer that my Pertec-interface Cipher C880 is worth about $50 to scrap dealers. He then offered me a complete IBM System 36 with drives,tapes,interfaces, etc., that I'm going to pick up this week. BTW, does anyone have an extra pertec-to-scsi adapter laying around in the closet? ;) Aaron From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 6 18:20:49 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: AIX PS/2 Message-ID: <19980406232049.9505.qmail@hotmail.com> In IBM's description of the PS/2 Model 70, the said that it ran DOS 3.3 and higher, OS/2 1.0x and higher, and AIX PS/2. Does anyone have possession/experience with the last item? I guess it's a form of UNIX. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Apr 6 20:10:37 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 6, 98 04:37:36 pm Message-ID: <9804070010.AA29607@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1279 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/d9f50d4d/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 6 19:11:09 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Summasketch graphics tablet Message-ID: <19980407001109.22572.qmail@hotmail.com> > >> > Can I make one, >> > get one REALLY cheap, or operate the thing without one? Also, it >> >> Don't know. I bet it emits RF, and the tablet probably has a circuit board with >> traces running horizontally on one side an vertically on the other. My Dauphin >> detects the pen in this manner. > >The older sumagraphics tables like the Bit Pad 1, the ID series and the >Apple graphics tablet worked by sending a magnetic pulse along some wires >made of special alloy. I believe this pulse travelled at approximately >the speed of sound in the wires - there was a shock wave that travelled >along them caused by magnetostriction. Magnetostriction? >The puck was a simple sense coil. I had to rewind one of mine once, and I >seem to remember it was something like 11 turns of 30swg wire. That would >be a start anyway. > >Also I seem to remember that the buttons on the puck had 100k resistors >in series with them. The other side of the button was grounded. This is >also critical - otherwise noise breaks through into the sense coil amplifier. > > / 100k >Gnd----/ o---\/\/\---- Button input > Do you know the pinout for the plug? > >Certainly the Bit Pad 1 came in a serial version (and also a GPIB >version and a parallel version). > >There's another type of tablet that consists of an XY matrix of PCB >tracks - plain copper PCB tracks. They are individually driven by a set >of decoder/driver chips which are driven by a simple microcontroller. >Again the puck is a simple sense coil. > >Thing is, it has a much better resolution than the spacing between the >tracks. And there's no extra hardware, like high-speed-ish counters. I've >never figured out how that one works - any clues? > Well, I have this second one. My guess is that it uses capacitance, like touch-to-turn on lamps. >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Apr 6 20:15:04 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 VOXBOX? In-Reply-To: <352846EB.2A5B4466@cnct.com> References: <199804060249.AA27062@world.std.com> <352846EB.2A5B4466@cnct.com> Message-ID: <354f7c89.694536610@hoser> The VoxBox was a little grey plastic brick with a CB-style microphone attached. I got one when they first came out. They worked okay, considering the technology at the time. You had to push-to-talk, and it could only recognize a few words at a time, but it was fun to play with. The voice synthesizer was a big grey box made of particle board with a black cloth front covering a speaker. I believe you're correct in the operation using PRINT @ statements, but the box was based on a commonly available sythesis chip (I'll have to dig later if anybody cares - I think it was either the SC-01 or the SPO-256 from Votrax and/or General Instrument.) I've still got both, along with the manuals, if you want any more details. I wrote some software to take commands via speech, control some lights and appliances with the "Plug-n-Power" interface for the Model 1, and then give verbal feedback using the synthesizer. It may not be the most intelligible voice, but to this day that's still one of my favorite sythesizers; it sounds so wonderfully robotic! On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 23:07:23 -0400, you wrote: >Allison J Parent wrote: >> >> > > > > < >> > >> It speaks, classic mechanical sounding speech. Rather fun to play with. > >The VoxBox was voice input, not output. I never actually saw one in >action, they were being discontinued about the time I joined Tandy in >late '80. The voice synthesizer was another story, they worked much >better than most folks would expect. Unfortunately, both devices were >_strictly_ for the Model One, there was never a way to attach either >to a Model 3 or later system -- the voice synthesizer for example was >tied to a specific area of video RAM and would output what was sent >there by a "PRINT @" statement. Rather hard to integrate with >packaged software. -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 6 19:15:34 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: math coprocessors Message-ID: <19980407001534.7001.qmail@hotmail.com> [Autocad not requiring math coprocessor] Well, version 12 for Dos, which is what I have, seems to require it. It refuses to start up, quitting with "80x87 required, but not present". Whoever said it doesn't, maybe you have a lower version. If so, which and what's it like? I would certainly be interested in an older version, such a 7 or 8. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 6 15:07:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: E & L MMD1 8080 trainer board Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1903 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/061087ac/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 6 19:16:36 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: DEC 11/70..." (Apr 6, 16:37) References: Message-ID: <9804070116.ZM1337@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> > > Generally for the old machines we talk about on this list, the chip type > > code is easy to differentiate from the date code, because of the > > prevalence of 7400-series TTL chips. Any 74xx or 54xx number will be the > > chip type, while the other number will be the date code. > > Until you get a machine built in 1974 :-). It's happened to me, it's > mentioned in 'The Art of Electronics', and it's doubtless happened to > others here. Too right. And they don't half misbehave when you mistake the date code for the logic function :-) I've got a large boxful of TTL with 74 date codes. Trouble is, I *still* can't tell which is which on one or two of them, just by looking. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 6 15:27:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: <9804070010.AA29607@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Apr 6, 98 05:10:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1405 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/c7a0555a/attachment.ksh From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Apr 6 19:22:17 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Looking for info on old SuperMac video board References: Message-ID: <352971B9.AF67261C@exit109.com> (This is a follow-up to an earlier posting, but with some corrections and further information.) I recently acquired an old Macintosh II. In it was an older SuperMac video board. Based on the pictures on Radius' web site, I have concluded that this is a Spectrum/8 (original), Part # STD9411, Assy # 1002689-0001. The label on the ROM reads: SUPERMAC TECH SPECTRUM D6 1002690-B 1986 According to Newer`s SlotInfo program, The card revision is 1.0B9 and has a part number of VGB-1. Per Radius' FAQ, I have tried holding down the OPTION key while booting, but never got the "round robin" video mode selection. I have also tried running SuperVideo 2.7.5 which tells me I must have ROM version 1.9 or later in order to select a monitor. Currently, the card seems to be "stuck" in what I assume is the default mode of 1016x768. So, does anyone have: 1) Info on how to get the card into other modes (pref 640x480 for now). 2) Setup software for this old a card. 3) Any info on support monitor resolutions and frequencies? Thanks in advance... <<>> From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 6 20:27:07 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: math coprocessors References: <19980407001534.7001.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <352980EA.6363E886@bbtel.com> Max Eskin wrote: > [Autocad not requiring math coprocessor] > Well, version 12 for Dos, which is what I have, seems to require it. > It refuses to start up, quitting with "80x87 required, but not > present". Whoever said it doesn't, maybe you have a lower version. > If so, which and what's it like? I would certainly be interested in > an older version, such a 7 or 8. There used to be some either shareware or commercial ware that would trick the system into thinking there was a mathco installed, at either the 8087 or 80287 level. I used to run an older AutoCad and Lotus with it and while it didn't speed anything up it also didn't slow it down. You might check Shareware.com, Download.Com, Jumbo.Com, etc for it. Someone posted a Big Blue archive site a while ago that might have it too. At least for testing anyway. Mathcoprocessors themselves are very inexpensive anymore but this allows you to at least check it out. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 6 19:33:37 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: math coprocessors In-Reply-To: "Max Eskin" "Re: math coprocessors" (Apr 6, 17:15) References: <19980407001534.7001.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <9804070133.ZM1402@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 6, 17:15, Max Eskin wrote: > Subject: Re: math coprocessors > [Autocad not requiring math coprocessor] > Well, version 12 for Dos, which is what I have, seems to require it. > It refuses to start up, quitting with "80x87 required, but not > present". Whoever said it doesn't, maybe you have a lower version. > If so, which and what's it like? I would certainly be interested in > an older version, such a 7 or 8. Even fairly old versions require a maths copro. Some of my then-colleagues at Acorn Computers were involved in negotiations with Autodesk in 1987, to get it ported to the ARM architecture. AD ported Autosketch quite quickly, because it doesn't need a maths copro, but they refused to port AutoCad, because they insisted a maths coprocessor was essential (despite the fact that the software routines available outperformed some contemporary maths processors). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 6 19:50:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... Message-ID: <199804070050.AA05972@world.std.com> from "Max Eskin" at Apr 6, 98 05:11:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/09b393fe/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 6 15:55:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: from Cadnetix to IBM.... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Apr 6, 98 05:51:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/e4d4e609/attachment.ksh From aaron at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 6 22:11:05 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: from Cadnetix to IBM.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Has anyone checked the PSU yet? ;-).... I checked the output of the PSU at each lead with a voltmeter, but I'm afraid that just about everything else would be above my current skills. > Do you mean C880? I've got a manual for the automatic front-loading F880 > somewhere. A real manual with schematics and test routines in it. Ya, I have the manual for it. The "F" was the rack-mount, the "C" was the desktop. Heavy sucker. But the same manual, with the schematics/test routines/etc. I don't have anything to use it with at the moment, but I'll keep it around for when I do. Aaron From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Apr 6 17:10:38 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: H89 found on newsgroups! In-Reply-To: References: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Apr 6, 98 05:51:11 pm Message-ID: <199804070207.WAA27648@mail.cgocable.net> Found this and wanted to pass this around to anyone on list. Jason D. From: jhartman@compuserve.com (John Hartman) Subject: H89 free to good home Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:07:13 GMT Message-ID: <3528cfef.3110808@news.compuserve.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Newsgroups: comp.sys.zenith Lines: 13 Path: news.cgocable.net!news.rns.net!news.ott.rns.net!wesley.videotron.net!s unqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.abs.net!WCG!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-m aster.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naaa.compuserve.com Yes it's your computer heritage, free to anyone who wants it: H89 in good condition (used only by a little not-so-old lady who kept it covered with a drop cloth when not in use) Running CP/M, with home-brew second floppy and 64K RAM card. Full docs, shematics, and construction manuals. Also have the original hard sectored flppy drive and HDOS. Linear power supplies weigh a ton, so YOU pay shipping, or pick it up. Minneapolis, MN email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From engine at chac.org Mon Apr 6 21:15:54 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Singleboard and peripherals for grabs (Northern CA) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980406191554.00f8a2e0@pop.batnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 701 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/636b258d/attachment.bin From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Apr 6 21:46:00 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Speaking of VoxBox... Message-ID: I have one here that I'd gladly part with. In the original box, with the original documentation and cassettes. The original box, it should be noted, has been written all over and used to mail the thing hither and yon, so it's not "pristine" to say the least. I don't want a lot of money for it, but I'll accept little offers to cover the hassle of mailing it, plus postage. The only reason I'm getting rid of it is because I'm frankly not that interested in RadioShack stuff :) So hopefully it will end up in a nice happy friendly collector's home being tinkered with instaed of sitting on my shelf collecting dust. -Seth Morabito Computer Historian, DEC Enthusiast, Weirdo Send comments, questions, and offers to sethm@loomcom.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Apr 6 22:48:13 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 6, 98 09:27:09 pm Message-ID: <9804070248.AA30078@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 395 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980406/b688b282/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Mon Apr 6 21:48:41 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Singleboard and peripherals for grabs (Northern CA) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980406191554.00f8a2e0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Kip Crosby wrote: > Heard the other day from a gentleman who wants to get rid of an 8085 (?) > singleboard with several interesting peripherals. I could and would do > it, but not in the timeframe he wants, which is between now and next > Wednesday, April 8. He's moving and doesn't want to move it; taker > collects. > > > His name is Times New RomanTerry > Clapham; e-mail terryc@visx.com; phone 408-741-1367. Somebody please > call him, I'd love to know that this didn't get scrapped. I called him, and he also wants to dump his terminal and printer, which I'm not especially interested in (and he's asking about $100, but it sounds like he's willing to come to his senses). It's a Netronix 8085 SBC from around 1979 (I thought the 8085 came out a little later than that), with some sort of S-100 compatibility. He's faxing me a spec sheet tonight. I may pick this up if nobody else wants it, but I'll defer to somebody who's also interested in a (home made?) terminal and a small thermal (Telepar?) printer. -- Doug From erd at infinet.com Mon Apr 6 21:49:02 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Looking for help with Mac SE Radius board/monitor Message-ID: <199804070249.WAA12507@user2.infinet.com> Having recently discovered this list, I might have a chance at getting some help for a long obsolete Radius product: the Radius Full Page Display for the Mac SE. My late mother bought this a while back, attached to a Mac, for her word processing/typesetting business. It has never worked, due to the fact that the previous owner of the Mac SE formatted the hard disk before handing it over to her. The drivers for the card _were_ on there, but she used the machine for weeks before asking her sons why the big screen initialized but never worked. The external monitor comes up, displays a half-tone pattern, then goes dark. I did manage to get _a_ driver for the card when Radius still had it on their ftp site, but, alas, the ROMs are too old to work with that version of the driver. At the time, my mother didn't want to spend $80 to get newer ROMs from Radius, and now, they aren't available. So... what I could use is either a) an old version of the FPD SE disks (c. 1987-1989) or b) FPD SE ROMs newer than version 4.1 (the ones that are installed there now). Besides the version number, the ROMs have a U number (U19 and U20) and a part number (297-132-D and 297-131-D) and a size (256K). The date on the ROM labels is 1989. The date on the PCB silkscreen is 1987. Thanks for any help. -ethan P.S. - I can burn my own ROMs from images. They're just plain-old 27C256's. From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Apr 6 21:50:42 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Math coprocessors Message-ID: <001c01bd61d0$0ee4a800$a067bcc1@hotze> Seriously look for a Weitek Math Co processor, especially if you've got lots of RAM. They were 387-compatible FPU's that used some RAM to boost speed dramatically. As a matter of fact, a Weitek might even be faster than a FPU found on a Pentium or higher machine. -----Original Message----- From: Jack Peacock To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 06, 1998 9:34 PM Subject: RE: Math coprocessors >Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: >> Max Eskin wrote: >> > >> > I found a PS/2 Model 70 recently, which would normally have a 386, >> > but the previous owner installed a Cyrix 486 upgrade chip. Does >> > anyone know if I can use a 386 math coprocessor with this? I want >> > to run AutoCAD. >> >> The i486 has a coprocessor built in, I assume that the Cyrix does >> as well. Try the software. IIRC, AutoCAD doesn't _require_ a math >> coprocessor, but one does help performance by an order or two of >> magnitude on a 386. >> -- >No, the Cyrix 486DL (I assume it is a DL or DR2 if it's in a 386 >motherboard) is not the same as an Intel 486. The Cyrix 486DL was an >upgrade CPU for the 386 pinout, adding a 486 instruction set and 1K >internal cache. The 486DR2 version was clock doubled. These CPUs do >not have floating point. Generally an Intel 80387 did not work >reliably, but the Cyrix 487 co-processor did. ULSI (and I think IIT) >also made 487s. You can try the Intel 387, sometimes they ran ok, >mostly it depended on the speed range used. > Jack Peacock From ecloud at bigfoot.com Mon Apr 6 21:54:20 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: ISA to PCI? References: <3.0.3.32.19980405094241.00e5e1a0@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: <3529955C.2AD01F58@bigfoot.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > > Tim Hotze scribbled... > > >the old ISA cards I've collected, I just got an AWE 64, and my scanner and > >PCMCIA cards are ISA-based. So, is it possible to make a device that will > >make an ISA card fit into a PCI socket? Is anyone making them? > > No one that I know of. In fact, I question that such a device is even > economically possible to the point that a company would want to try. The > architecture differences between PCI and ISA are enormous. > > The only thing I can think of that -might- stand a chance of working is to > construct some sort of sub-board that the ISA card would plug into. Said > sub-board would contain the necessary circuitry to implement an ISA-to-PCI > bridge. > > This means, at bare minimum, dealing with a 220-lead surface-mount PQFP > chip and its supporting components. That means lots of skill in engineering > such bridges, to say nothing of having access to schematic capture and PC > board layout tools that can handle advanced boards... Sure you would need a bridge chip, but on PCI motherboards the ISA bus is actually connected to the PCI bus via just such a bridge, rather than directly to the processor as in AT designs; so evidently it isn't too expensive to do that. I think it also allows for some flexibility in moving ports, memory addresses, irq's etc. around, for ISA devices on a PCI bus. That helped make PnP possible for non-PnP cards (ISA PnP cards also comply to a standard which allows the system to query which parameters can be changed, and then change them). Somebody ought to make an expansion chassis, like the old IBM PC expansion chassis, that plugs into a card on the PCI bus. That would be handy for people with lots of cards, more so than individual converter boards, and the higher retail price would allow a higher profit margin too. Alternatively, running out of ISA slots is a great excuse to get a second machine. If you run Linux, it becomes much easier to share resources between PC's over a network. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From erd at infinet.com Mon Apr 6 21:53:18 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: <9804070248.AA30078@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Apr 6, 98 07:48:13 pm Message-ID: <199804070253.WAA12624@user2.infinet.com> > > > And the Vff .vs. Iff graph, complete with burn-out just after 6.3V.... > > I wonder what fraction of new EE graduates today would recognize the > significance of 6.3 VAC? > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) I'm not an EE, but my oldest neurons seem to recall that 6.3 VAC was important to firebottles (tubes/valves). Am I close? -ethan From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 6 22:12:51 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... Message-ID: <199804070312.AA18627@world.std.com> <> > My favorite graph on the data sheet is "Number of pins remaining <> > vs. number of socket insertions". (Wasn't this originally published <> > in an April 1 issue of _Electronics_ in the 70's?) <> <> And the Vff .vs. Iff graph, complete with burn-out just after 6.3V.... < At 11:47 PM 4/3/98 -0600, you wrote: >> >* I'll return or destroy any personal data I find on a machine I acquire. >> >> ...acquire, keeping it in the strictest confidence should I find it >> necessary to view it. > >More like...if the person(s) that ditched the computer in whatever form didn't >feel the need to safeguard the information prior to release of their >personal/corporate property, then it's of no reason to follow through with any >protection of data/software contained on the machine or disks. If you buy a Except, that people may feel it's easier (and/or safer) to just destroy the machine than it is to try and make sure no one can read their data. What if some one told you, "yeah, I had one of those imsai computers, but I had it smashed up to make sure no one could get at my old tax returns." Not a pleasant thought. I agree that people should be responsible for their own data, but I also feel that we, as collectors, need to hold ourselves to a higher standard, so that people will feel comfortable giving us their old machines. Similarly, would you tell your analyst/doctor/lawyer as much as you do, if you thought they might be telling everyone in the pub what you told them? >camcorder at a consignment or pawn shop and the last owners left a tape of >their after-hours playtime in the camcorder, is it my responsibility to erase, >safeguard or return it? I think not. I feel the same should apply to personal It's your responsibility to post it on the internet! 8^) Camcorders are reasonably well understood items; what if it were a digital camera? Someone might decide not to pass it on if they thought they might not have erased everything... Most of the people here probably know how to wipe a hard drive so it can't be read. (My best guess is a low-level format, then fill it with worthless data? Good thing I have nothing to hide!) But the average AOL user doesn't. When Grandpa passes on, you don't want the grandkids trashing all his old computers because they don't know how to make sure that no one will know about all the porno sites he visited on the web. >Roger: Very nice page of your collection. A few more pics of each item and it >should become a very informative source for those interested in the world of >the obsolete (the computers, not you). I tried to get pics of each side and any important features... You think even more pics would be appropriate? Or do you mean pics of more computers? P.S., for them what was interested, I'm still working (in my Copious Spare Time) on documenting the programs I use to generate the pages. I'll post when I get them finished and uploaded. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From Roger at Sinasohn.com Mon Apr 6 22:57:32 1998 From: Roger at Sinasohn.com (Roger Sinasohn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:11 2005 Subject: Fwd: Franklin computer available Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980406170114.6c5fea24@mail.sinasohn.com> Got this in the mail... Please respond to Ed at ed@estival.com... >X-Persona: >X-Originating-IP: [32.100.144.158] >From: "Ed Schreiber" >To: roger@sinasohn.com >Subject: Franklin computer available >Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:34:11 PDT > >To computer museums and serious collectors: > >There is a Franklin 1000 computer available for donation (Apple II >clone). Monitor, two floppy drives, all cables, some software, still >works. > >If interested, please respond. > >Ed Schreiber >http://estival.com >ed@estival.com > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From donm at cts.com Mon Apr 6 23:08:20 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: <199804070312.AA18627@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <> > My favorite graph on the data sheet is "Number of pins remaining > <> > vs. number of socket insertions". (Wasn't this originally published > <> > in an April 1 issue of _Electronics_ in the 70's?) > <> > <> And the Vff .vs. Iff graph, complete with burn-out just after 6.3V.... > < > > or 12.6vac or historically 12.6,12.6,12.6,35,50 (all Vac). > > Allison Gee! I think I can still lay my hands on a radio like that. - don From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 7 00:17:35 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: AIX PS/2 References: <19980406232049.9505.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3529B6EF.7ACBA5F2@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > In IBM's description of the PS/2 Model 70, the said that it ran > DOS 3.3 and higher, OS/2 1.0x and higher, and AIX PS/2. Does anyone > have possession/experience with the last item? I guess it's a form > of UNIX. The product was stillborn, to the best of my knowledge. If it ever actually shipped as far as beta test I'd be greatly surprised. And I'd be looking for a copy. It's about the only excuse I'd ever have to get a branded IBM Microchannel system. (And I know a company with a _bunch_ of retired PS/2s of various models that they have no idea what to do with). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 7 00:22:10 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: math coprocessors References: <19980407001534.7001.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3529B802.CD66B1BA@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > [Autocad not requiring math coprocessor] > Well, version 12 for Dos, which is what I have, seems to require it. > It refuses to start up, quitting with "80x87 required, but not > present". Whoever said it doesn't, maybe you have a lower version. > If so, which and what's it like? I would certainly be interested in > an older version, such a 7 or 8. I don't remember the version number, we're not merely talking _old_, we're talking ancient -- I used to mess about with AutoCAD on the Tandy 2000 back in 1986 -- an 80186 CPU with no coprocessor (and the 8087 option for the Tandy 2000 was expensive, involving a swapout of the motherboard). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Apr 7 01:25:37 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Old Data References: <3.0.16.19980406172337.0eff0886@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3529C6E1.2E0767E0@bbtel.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > Except, that people may feel it's easier (and/or safer) to just destroy the > machine than it is to try and make sure no one can read their data. What > if some one told you, "yeah, I had one of those imsai computers, but I had > it smashed up to make sure no one could get at my old tax returns." Not a > pleasant thought. It's rarely done, most people aren't that superstitious of electronic machines. > I agree that people should be responsible for their own data, but I also > feel that we, as collectors, need to hold ourselves to a higher standard, > so that people will feel comfortable giving us their old machines. If they actually gave us the machines. Most times they're swapped or sold cheaply. > Similarly, would you tell your analyst/doctor/lawyer as much as you do, if > you thought they might be telling everyone in the pub what you told them? Bad similarity...no one is paying you for confidentiality. > >camcorder at a consignment or pawn shop and the last owners left a tape of > >their after-hours playtime in the camcorder, is it my responsibility to > erase, > >safeguard or return it? I think not. I feel the same should apply to personal > > It's your responsibility to post it on the internet! 8^) Now we agree. > Camcorders are reasonably well understood items; what if it were a digital > camera? Someone might decide not to pass it on if they thought they might > not have erased everything... > > Most of the people here probably know how to wipe a hard drive so it can't > be read. (My best guess is a low-level format, then fill it with worthless > data? Good thing I have nothing to hide!) But the average AOL user > doesn't. When Grandpa passes on, you don't want the grandkids trashing all > his old computers because they don't know how to make sure that no one will > know about all the porno sites he visited on the web. And many have had to use level 3 read/write data destruction if they've worked for the government. If the goverment is required to insure a clean machine to the point of even installing a new hard disk prior to public sale, why should the average Joe be protected in his or her sloppy handling of their private matters. If you get right down to it they risk public viewing just by installing anything on the hard disk and connecting to the net. > >Roger: Very nice page of your collection. A few more pics of each item and it > >should become a very informative source for those interested in the world of > >the obsolete (the computers, not you). > > I tried to get pics of each side and any important features... You think > even more pics would be appropriate? Or do you mean pics of more computers? Not more of the one, but a picture or two of each machine. I realize you're just working on the site but a picture really makes the site interesting to those not familiar with the machines. A prefect example is the dual drive on a Rainbow. How many people can even grasp the thought of putting a floppy in right way in one slot, upside down in the other? > P.S., for them what was interested, I'm still working (in my Copious Spare > Time) on documenting the programs I use to generate the pages. I'll post > when I get them finished and uploaded. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Apr 7 01:27:50 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: math coprocessors References: <19980407001534.7001.qmail@hotmail.com> <3529B802.CD66B1BA@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3529C766.3ABA4F48@bbtel.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Max Eskin wrote: > > > > [Autocad not requiring math coprocessor] > > Well, version 12 for Dos, which is what I have, seems to require it. > > It refuses to start up, quitting with "80x87 required, but not > > present". Whoever said it doesn't, maybe you have a lower version. > > If so, which and what's it like? I would certainly be interested in > > an older version, such a 7 or 8. > > I don't remember the version number, we're not merely talking _old_, > we're talking ancient -- I used to mess about with AutoCAD on the > Tandy 2000 back in 1986 -- an 80186 CPU with no coprocessor (and the > 8087 option for the Tandy 2000 was expensive, involving a swapout of > the motherboard). Try running it on a Sanyo MBC-55x-2 with an 8088 processor and NO Alt key. An 8087 was around $125 then. I've had handfuls of them in boxes since then. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 7 01:04:23 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Old Data In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980406172337.0eff0886@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > Except, that people may feel it's easier (and/or safer) to just destroy the > machine than it is to try and make sure no one can read their data. What > if some one told you, "yeah, I had one of those imsai computers, but I had > it smashed up to make sure no one could get at my old tax returns." Not a > pleasant thought. I've held onto machines that I would've happily given away except for the time involved to go through the stuff on the hard disk and clean it up. This is a real problem. Somebody recently asked me for a solution to this problem that could be easily communicated to the masses, and I couldn't come up with one. Reformatting the disk and installing a fresh O/S is probably the closest approximation for a lot of people, but it has a few problems: 1) High-level formatting may leave data intact. 2) Installing the O/S doesn't install the drivers for any odd-ball peripherals the machine happens to have in it. 3) 90% of users probably don't know how to do it. What the world needs is a painless one button backup-and-clean program. -- Doug From archive at navix.net Tue Apr 7 02:26:06 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale Message-ID: <3529D50D.14730BA2@navix.net> Go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=10391784 to get in on the bidding for a 128k TRS-80 Model 4 computer. CORD -- ___________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |___________________________________________________| | \____________________________________________________\| From archive at navix.net Tue Apr 7 02:15:31 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 3 (ser. #0000510) on Ebay Message-ID: <3529D292.248E30D5@navix.net> The budding started tonight for a TRS-80 Model 3 network computer which has the serial # of 0000510!! Check out this URL to get in on it if you wish: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=10391298 Thanks, CORD COSLOR -- ___________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |___________________________________________________| | \____________________________________________________\| From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Apr 7 02:43:17 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: <3529D50D.14730BA2@navix.net> Message-ID: <3529D913.76EAC015@ndirect.co.uk> Warning! You might get something different from what you have bidded for. I did. Ciao enrico Cord Coslor wrote: > > Go to: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=10391784 > > to get in on the bidding for a 128k TRS-80 Model 4 computer. > > CORD > > -- > ___________________________________________________ > | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ > | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | > |---------------------------------------------------| | > | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | > |---------------------------------------------------| | > | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | > |___________________________________________________| | > \____________________________________________________\| -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Apr 7 04:37:33 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Sperry 286 Message-ID: Well, I finally got around to looking at the terminal PC that came with the Cadnetix workstation. Turns out it's a pretty kick-ass Sperry 286 PC/IT, with some nifty stuff. A Genoa 4850 video card, which my info says can display 800x600, an SIIG FK3459 I/O board, a Rybs Electronics HicardAT memory board, a WDC 1002-WAH HD controller and 20meg HD, and a net card to boot. It also has 1 meg on the board and the math coprocessor installed as well. The little bit I could find on the video card claims that it uses a multisync monitor. It has the two rca jacks and a db-9; how do I wire an adapter for db-9 to hd-15? Thanks, Aaron BTW, I also got a couple hundred 5 1/4 floppies with it, including 2 complete sets of SCO OpenWindows 1.0.0.y; anyone want one? From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Apr 7 01:44:51 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Roger Sinasohn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Older Toshiba Manuals Message-ID: <3529CB63.5DB6@ricochet.net> Saw a post on Usenet answering someone's request for info on a Toshiba T3100 with the comment that the user manuals are all online. Went to , did a search on "t3200 manual" and sure enough, found this page: http://www.csd.toshiba.com/tais/csd/support/files/manuals.htm which has manuals for their laptops going bat to the T1000LE. I'll be busy downloading tonight... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Apr 7 01:53:18 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Roger Sinasohn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: More Toshiba Files Message-ID: <3529CD5E.63C3@ricochet.net> Toshiba also has files listing specs of older machines, and a file that lists prices of discontinued items. See: http://www.csd.toshiba.com/tais/csd/support/files/product.htm P.S., the other page wasn't 100% complete (had the T5200 but not the T5100) but still was pretty good. This one looks to have most (older) models. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 7 03:09:24 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Older Toshiba Manuals In-Reply-To: <3529CB63.5DB6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Roger Sinasohn wrote: > Saw a post on Usenet answering someone's request for info on a Toshiba > T3100 with the comment that the user manuals are all online. Went to > , did a search on "t3200 manual" and sure > enough, found this page: > > http://www.csd.toshiba.com/tais/csd/support/files/manuals.htm > > which has manuals for their laptops going bat to the T1000LE. I'll be > busy downloading tonight... Also look for a program called Tech Access (I think). It's a cool little hypertext utility that contains technical specs, part numbers, and other info about many of their portables. -- Doug From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue Apr 7 03:20:33 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Sperry 286 Message-ID: <01bd61fe$08d4e780$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Sounds like it is meant to go with early multisync monitors like NEC Multisync I and II which have a 9 pin socket so in reality it is probably just an EGA card. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney The little bit I could find on the video card claims that it uses a multisync monitor. It has the two rca jacks and a db-9; how do I wire an adapter for db-9 to hd-15? From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 7 03:38:18 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Hyperion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've got somebody willing to sell me a Hyperion portable, but shipping from Toronto to San Jose pushes the price a little bit beyond what I'm comfortable with. Three questions: 1) Anybody closer to SJ got one they're dying to get rid of? 2) Anybody closer to Toronto dying to get one? ($40) 3) I rarely see these. Is that just because I'm not Canadian? (BTW, I've decided my life won't be complete without an Ampere WS1. Anybody know where I can get one?) -- Doug From pjoules at coleg-powys.ac.uk Tue Apr 7 04:00:42 1998 From: pjoules at coleg-powys.ac.uk (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: <01bd6203$a516ca00$104e53c2@MIS2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> It occurs to me that, whilst we have heard several opinions about what to do with old data, these posts are being achived! If someone who is thinking of disposing of a machine sees that some on the list appear to have less respect (IMHO) for the confidentiality of old data than others might this not put them off giving a machine away. FWIW I believe that we should make it clear on all 'collection associated' web sites that any old data, whatever its nature, will be treated in the strictest of confidence. Regards Pete (Dons asbestos suit and runs for cover ;-) From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 7 05:26:35 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: FW: Y2K In-Reply-To: <199804061600.JAA06959@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Anybody want to take a crack at this one? bob massey - Monday, April 06, 1998 at 20:02:43 hi- i'm working on a piece here at the Washington Post about the Year 2000 bug, and although there is plenty of info about what it is and how to combat it, there is very little history available. specifically, i'm trying to find out 1) who were the co-authors of the COBOL language along with Grace Murray Hopper, 2) who decided to use two digits for the year instead of four, and 3) who discovered the Y2K problem? i'm not sure if you would have that kind of information available in your archive, but any leads you can give me would be a great help. please reply to: thanks in advance, bob massey From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Apr 7 06:05:22 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: mountain computer? In-Reply-To: <49b7cbc4.352930e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980407060522.3a078b74@intellistar.net> David, I never was into Apples so I don't know anything about that card, but I do remember that they were popular at one time. I passed up a box of Apple cards at a recent hamfest and it had a SuperTalker card in it so the cards are still around. FWIW, Joe At 03:45 PM 4/6/98 EDT, you wrote: >got a card labeled SUPERTALKER II by mountain computer. i've heard of the >company, but not of the card. seems to be speech synthesis or similar. web >search on the company and the card brought up nothing. anyone have more info? > >david > From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Tue Apr 7 07:13:31 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: AIX PS/2 In-Reply-To: <3529B6EF.7ACBA5F2@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Apr 7, 98 01:17:35 am Message-ID: <199804071213.IAA05968@shell.monmouth.com> > > Max Eskin wrote: > > > > In IBM's description of the PS/2 Model 70, the said that it ran > > DOS 3.3 and higher, OS/2 1.0x and higher, and AIX PS/2. Does anyone > > have possession/experience with the last item? I guess it's a form > > of UNIX. > > The product was stillborn, to the best of my knowledge. If it ever > actually shipped as far as beta test I'd be greatly surprised. And > I'd be looking for a copy. It's about the only excuse I'd ever have > to get a branded IBM Microchannel system. (And I know a company > with a _bunch_ of retired PS/2s of various models that they have no > idea what to do with). > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > Actually, I've been told up to Rev 1.3 of AIX shipped for PS/2s. It was based off of Interactive's Unix port and was pretty lousy compared with stuff that's out from the FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux and OpenBSD crowd. I've actually run Linux on a mod 80 and mod 95 PS/2. The best Unix to run on the 386 and up PS/2s was SCO. They've got Unixware and SCO Open Desktop available for non-commercial use from their web page. I'd love to put Linux up on a PS/2 here -- but from what I've seen, it's not worth the effort -- since faster 486 machines are being surplused by places every day. Bill Running Linux since 0.99 Running FreeBSD since 1.02 Running CP/M since 2.2 Running MS-DOS since 2.1 (unfortunately) +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu Tue Apr 7 07:54:40 1998 From: mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: AIX PS/2 In-Reply-To: <199804071213.IAA05968@shell.monmouth.com>; from Bill/Carolyn Pechter on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 08:13:31AM -0400 References: <3529B6EF.7ACBA5F2@cnct.com> <199804071213.IAA05968@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <19980407075440.49083@zeke.as.utexas.edu> I remember back in '98 when Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > > In IBM's description of the PS/2 Model 70, the said that it ran > > > DOS 3.3 and higher, OS/2 1.0x and higher, and AIX PS/2. Does anyone > > > have possession/experience with the last item? I guess it's a form > > > of UNIX. > > > > The product was stillborn, to the best of my knowledge. If it ever > > actually shipped as far as beta test I'd be greatly surprised. And > > I'd be looking for a copy. It's about the only excuse I'd ever have > > to get a branded IBM Microchannel system. (And I know a company > > with a _bunch_ of retired PS/2s of various models that they have no > > idea what to do with). > > -- > > Ward Griffiths <...> > Actually, I've been told up to Rev 1.3 of AIX shipped for PS/2s. > It was based off of Interactive's Unix port and was pretty lousy > compared with stuff that's out from the FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux and OpenBSD > crowd. I've actually run Linux on a mod 80 and mod 95 PS/2. <...> I actually used an aix ps/2 machine for several years.. Just checked and it seems that someone finally pulled the plug on the machine (used to be tcet.unt.edu). It was a pretty lousy *nix, as far as compatability went, though it seemed reasonably fast running on a (??) 386 ps/2 of some type. I managed to learn quite a bit about C and unix by trying to get various programs to compile under it. I think after about 2 years I was able to compile lynx, tin, elm, nethack . . It makes me really appreciate the FSFs autoconf stuff. m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@zen.as.utexas.edu -- atwork?astronomy:cs http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler -- (512)471-7450 Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 7 08:48:54 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: FW: Y2K Message-ID: <199804071348.AA04745@world.std.com> Sent to massyr@washpost.com copied to classiccomp: My cut on a nook in computer history. It's mine as I was only of those nutty kids hacking a pdp-8 in highschool in 1969 wondering about 31 years lateer and how that would not fit into a 12 bit word used to express date. <3529D913.76EAC015@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <352A3347.6EF02DAE@navix.net> Enrico: You never bidded for anything. You wanted a Model 1.... and you didn't have the knowledge to specify exactly what you wanted. I sent you a Model 1. You then said you wanted a Model 1 that was 'different' from the one I sent you. You sent an MSX that didn't even work. I didn't bitch... you did, and are still. Why can't you understand that you are a real pain in the @$$?!?!? Bye, bye.. CORD COSLOR Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > Warning! You might get something different from what you have bidded for. I did. > > Ciao > > enrico > > Cord Coslor wrote: > > > > Go to: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=10391784 > > > > to get in on the bidding for a 128k TRS-80 Model 4 computer. > > > > CORD > > > > -- > > ___________________________________________________ > > | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ > > | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | > > |---------------------------------------------------| | > > | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | > > |---------------------------------------------------| | > > | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | > > |___________________________________________________| | > > \____________________________________________________\| > > -- > ======================================================== > Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK > Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) > please visit my website at: > ======================================================== -- ___________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |___________________________________________________| | \____________________________________________________\| From mor at crl.com Tue Apr 7 08:25:49 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: FW: Y2K References: <199804071348.AA04745@world.std.com> Message-ID: <352A295C.F61F18C@crl.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > So no, the year 2000 problem wasn't discovered, save maybe for the media > person to finally put into print what every programmer and systems person > already knew. "We didn't use enough bits and were running out". Heh, even in modern systems, decimal math, especially date routines, are such a nuisance in assembly language that small ad hoc programs, not intended for mass consumption or longevity will cut portions of the date off just to make coding simpler. I wrote a few that had the 'YEAR 1990' problem ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From jharper at bs2000.com Tue Apr 7 09:14:28 1998 From: jharper at bs2000.com (Jack Harper) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: DEC 11/24????... In-Reply-To: <9804061441.AA28326@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <3.0.1.32.19980406075601.00d5696c@teal.csn.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980407081428.00e0b7b4@teal.csn.net> At 07:41 4/6/98 -0800, you wrote: >> A couple of weeks ago, I put out an e-mail to the List that mentioned that >> a friend had given a DEC PDP-11/70 (or so he thought) to me that had been >> 'hardened' by Schlumberger for use in the oil patch. The machine supposedly >> works and weighs close to 200 lbs. > >Well, a real 11/70 with memory box is closer to 1000 pounds, so it can't >be a real 11/70. That makes sense -- this guy is nowhere near that size -- it is *not* a PDP-11/70 (rats). > >If the machine is - as I guess - a 11/24, the machine dates from the >early 80's. But the bus it uses goes a decade further back than this, >so there certainly may be older things hooked in. > >If it's an 11/04, then it might be from the late 70's. > >Can you at least look at some of the date codes on the chips? (Would >it be useful if I prepared a brief lesson on "how to read date codes"? >I have to admit that it's pretty obvious to me, and I often don't >understand how someone can look at a board and not just innately know >how old it is because of the date codes blatantly stamped on most >of the chips.) The date codes on the IC's claim that the processor board was built no earlier than mid-1987... > >I don't recognize most of the part numbers below, I have to admit. >The numbers that are most useful are the numbers stamped on the module >handles, and are usually of the form Mnnn or Mnnnn, where "n" is a >decimal digit. > >> (1): Obviously a CPU board -- AH13Z-06. Also claims DEC P/N 1216988. Has a >> 15MHz crystal and is 15.5x8" in size. It has edge connectors (as do all of >> the boards). > >I think this is a PDP-11/24 CPU board. If the number on the handle >is "M7133", then my guess is right. It might also be a 11/04 CPU >board, in which case it'd be a "M7263". Tim -- I have looked for the stamped numbers as you mention and see absolutely nothing on the handles -- considering that I have never looked at DEC PDP boards before -- I am not sure what I am looking at. The 'handles' on this board are two metal handles each at the end of the board -- you pull up and the handle pries the board out of the connector -- I see no stamped numbers at all. I wonder if there are supposed to be plastic thingies with the stamped numbers on the end of the metal handles that someone removed -- there are none. Comments? >> > >I wouldn't exactly describe what you have as a "working system"; without >a disk/tape subsystem, you'll be limited to console I/O and at most >one of the older paper-tape operating systems. I actually have, which I have not mentioned, a large DEC-TAPE(?) drive which weights a good 120lbs and is perhaps 3' square -- my friend claimed that everything worked well when Slumberger removed it from service(?). I do not have, however, any tapes. I would like, if possible, to positively identify this computer before I give it away to someone on the list that can provide a good home... All help is appreciated... > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > Regards to all.. Jack (Friend to all things 'Symbolics') --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper Bank Systems 2000, Inc. 303-277-1892 Golden, Colorado USA "21st Century Financial Applications" Optical Cards for Bank, EBT, and Medical Applications Visit our Web Page: http://www.bs2000.com/talos (Last Update: 970902) --------------------------------------------------------------------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Apr 7 11:14:22 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: DEC 11/24????... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980407081428.00e0b7b4@teal.csn.net> from "Jack Harper" at Apr 7, 98 08:14:28 am Message-ID: <9804071514.AA24999@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1943 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980407/2a570d46/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Apr 7 10:20:53 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Rescue mission - Anyone else? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980407082053.00e5c370@mail.jps.net> Ha! Got my first "official" rescue coming up on the 18th. One of the local colleges (by 'local' I mean Washington state) is disposing of their old PDP-11/44 and all its peripherals. Here's the bad news. I don't have the space or the hauling capability to save the entire system. I'm taking the Fujitsu 'Eagle' they've got, its Unibus controller (an Emulex SC31 I'm told) plus some RSTS distribution tapes and a tape drive and -possibly- a rack. Last call: Is there anyone else in or near WA who would like to help save the rest of the system? If not, most of it will end up with the scrappers. Please get in touch with me directly as I will need to get my contact's OK (he's just expecting me at the moment). Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Apr 7 10:33:53 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: RESCUE NEEDED, EASTERN U.S., TIME-CRITICAL! Message-ID: <352a46ca.2788055551@mail.jps.net> This stuff is apparently going to get hauled away by the Garbage Gorillas on Wednesday of this week, so move quick and reply directly to the sender (john@egh.com, or call at (781-861-0670) if you want the stuff... -=-=- -=-=- From: jasantos@ultranet.com (John A Santos) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Free Unibus hardware (act fast...) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 06:14:36 -0400 Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. http://www.ultranet.com/ Lines: 70 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: d73.dial-1.cmb.ma.ultra.net X-Complaints-To: abuse@ultra.net X-Ultra-Time: 7 Apr 1998 10:17:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Anawave Gravity v2.00.753 Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news.burgoyne.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news.ultranet.com!not-for-mail My company is cleaning the basement, and there is a large collection of PDP-11 (mostly, some useful on VAXes) stuff that is going to be carted away on Wednesday (4/8) by the junk man. If anyone near Lexington Mass wants to grab any of it (or if you are willing to pay shipping, for the smaller items), please email me or call me at work. Unfortunately I just found out about it today, and it is going tomorrow, so there isn't much time to rescue this stuff from oblivion. Items include: Unibus backplanes (4 & 9 slot, a couple of each) 4 or 5 Unibus cables, varying lengths (at least one is brand new.) Lots of Unibus jumpers (M920 and some of the long ones (M9200?)) Thousands (well, dozens) of Grant jumpers (G727?) 2 DELUA's + cab kits 2 UDA-50's + cab kits (I think one has one bad board, the other works) 1 DH11 (and maybe some spare parts) 4 DZ11's (with CAB kits) 2 KMD11's (X.25 interface with a KMC11B and a line and modem board) 1 or two DV11's (synch multiplexor) 1 TMB-11 (TU10/TE10 controller) 1 RH11 (Unibus to massbus interface, has a stuck bit) 1 LP11 interface several DL11 boards, various vintages 2 Able (?) boards that each emulate 4 DL11's. 2 BA11 10 1/2 inch expansion boxes, one in pieces. 2 TE16 and one TE10 9-track tape drives, mostly disassembled 2 TM03 (maybe one is a TM02) Massbus tape formatters. Lots of H945? power regulators (I think they take 18V AC and output either +-5V DC or +-15V DC, depending on model) Anyway, these are the boxes about 4x6x8 inches that sit inside BA11's and PDP 11/40- vintage CPU cabs. There are also some print sets and manuals for some of this stuff. There might be a few Massbus cables, too. There might also be an old PDP-11/40 CPU board set. If you want any of this stuff, either email me (at work is better; I'll see it sooner) john@egh.com, or call me (781-861-0670). I can't guarantee that any particular items on this list won't be grabbed back by the powers that be, or that any particular item works, but hey! Many of the bits were working when last used, in October. This list is all from memory, so I could be wrong about quantities. It is mostly sitting in a big pile waiting for the trash-man, who rumor has will be coming on Wednesday, so this is both your first and last chance. If you want some particular item, but can't arrange shipping or to drop by, let me know and if it isn't too big, I can probably rescue it and save it for you. John Santos -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From ecloud at bigfoot.com Tue Apr 7 11:55:24 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Sperry 286 References: Message-ID: <352A5A7C.9B6CB0A2@bigfoot.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > The little bit I could find on the video card claims that it uses a > multisync monitor. It has the two rca jacks and a db-9; how do I wire an > adapter for db-9 to hd-15? This sounds like EGA, which is digital not analog (and I think I remember Genoa making some nice ones). You can find an EGA monitor or use one of the RCA's to hook up to a composite monitor. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Apr 7 08:31:17 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Hyperion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199804071728.NAA06001@mail.cgocable.net> > I've got somebody willing to sell me a Hyperion portable, but shipping > from Toronto to San Jose pushes the price a little bit beyond what I'm > comfortable with. Three questions: > > 1) Anybody closer to SJ got one they're dying to get rid of? Dunno, I have not seen anything with Hyperion attached to a old portable outside of Canada, inside, pretty common around here I had 3 (!!) and seen at least 4 others, even repaired one (bad ram). Well built chassis, amber flat screen tube, dual 320K but can format 360K 5.25" some came with modem option. Standard 256k ram but can go to full 640K with a external card on that expansion port (aka bus). Also it's almost 90% compatiable but locks tight on norton's sysinfo memory scan. Disabling that feature allowed me to look around with this program. Ran most programs pretty good on that V20 cpu. Cool little item is that push-push power switch is lighted. If you get one with burnt out lamp, replace this with resistor and a orange LED. Original used incersencent lamp. Nice little portable that can fit under the airline chairs. I did saw that in their ad's pages of that period. :) Jason D. > > 2) Anybody closer to Toronto dying to get one? ($40) > > 3) I rarely see these. Is that just because I'm not Canadian? > > (BTW, I've decided my life won't be complete without an Ampere WS1. > Anybody know where I can get one?) > > -- Doug > > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Apr 7 11:54:24 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? In-Reply-To: <35076353.A665047B@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <199804071715.MAA12548@onyx.southwind.net> Guys: Ok, I'm putting this up, and looking for opinions: I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50 6800 CPU available, and only the second 6800 CPU board of any stripe available from anyone AFAIK (Moto was first, of course). Here's the wrinkle: It's an unbuilt, BARE board. Given the somewhat historic nature of this article, what would you do? Build it as originally designed (most of the parts are still available), or leave the board blank, as is? For me, it is likely that it will remain unbuilt, as I already have an MP-A2, and another (Fully assembled) MP-A. But I was toying with the idea, when trying to repair my broken MP-A last nite. I'll get the MP-A working again, but sometimes it's tempting to start from scratch, given the opportunity. Jeff From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Apr 7 13:26:31 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: NEC PC Engine HE System Message-ID: <000201bd6252$d454a7c0$cc67bcc1@hotze> Hello. Ive recntly gotten a NEC PC Engine system, about 6"x6"x1" in size. It has a port that's around the size of a PS/2 port, but with different connections. The system uses a cool-looking card system, labeled as HuCARD, and I've got two games, PAC-LAND and a game that's entirely in Japanese labeled as THEthen lots in Japanese, I'll try to scan it in later, in a monocrome format. On the bottom, it says NEC PCEngine Japanese, then at the far right, it says PI-TG001 , then one line down, more Japanese writing, then at the far right, 4W writen. Then, another line down, it has Japanese, then at the far right, (PAD-105,PAD-106) Then there's an entire line of Japanese writing, then another line down, the words MADE IN JAPAN. Below that, in another indent, is the number that was pin-printed as 8Z14066H . At the right of the system, there's a port labeled ANT SWITCH, which I'm guessing I connect to a TV monitor. There's no port for sound. On the same location on the left, there's a thing labeled AC ADAPTER, which I don't currently have. Can I use a Nintendo adapter for this? A Sega? Any information would be appriciated. BTW, the controller seems to be a slightly-stylaziied version of an origional NES controller, with buttons labeled II and I, in the place of A and B, a select and Run button (Run in the place of Start) and a standard digital-arrow pad, as found on most gaming systems. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From dastar at wco.com Tue Apr 7 13:37:23 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? In-Reply-To: <199804071715.MAA12548@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50 > 6800 CPU available, and only the second 6800 CPU board of any stripe > available from anyone AFAIK (Moto was first, of course). > > Here's the wrinkle: It's an unbuilt, BARE board. Given the somewhat > historic nature of this article, what would you do? Build it as > originally designed (most of the parts are still available), or > leave the board blank, as is? If you're going to use it, build it. If not, keep it around for show until you truly need it. Then build it. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 7 14:03:38 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? References: Message-ID: <352A788A.D7CD66A2@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50 > > 6800 CPU available, and only the second 6800 CPU board of any stripe > > available from anyone AFAIK (Moto was first, of course). > > > > Here's the wrinkle: It's an unbuilt, BARE board. Given the somewhat > > historic nature of this article, what would you do? Build it as > > originally designed (most of the parts are still available), or > > leave the board blank, as is? > > If you're going to use it, build it. If not, keep it around for show > until you truly need it. Then build it. I'd suggest at least stockpiling the components while they're still available whether immediate assembly is planned or not -- it'll help establish which parts _aren't_ available and need to be scrounged for. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From maynard at jmg.com Tue Apr 7 16:05:42 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:37:23 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <199804072105.RAA29196@mr-gateway.internal.net> Uhhhh, not to be pushy or anything, but I'd say 'BUILD IT!' As for historical significance... if you donated it to the Boston Computer Museum I suspect the best place they'd find for it would be the trash.... *I*, personally, would enjoy seeing the baby functional. JMHO, though, I can't imagine _needing_ it for anything but sick personal pleasure. ;-) BTW: anyone remember a BYTE article on the SwTPC sometime in '78 regarding a very eary voice recognition and voice synth system connected to house controls? I seem to remember that the upshot of it was that it didn't work well and the poor author wound up showing off his undershorts because the system misrecognized a command and opened up the garage door at an inopportune time.... Maybe it was a Kilobaud issue???? I'm pretty hazy on this, but I remember it made a big impression on me as a kid. As a side side issue, anyone remember the name of the S100 board used for voice recognition/synth? --jmg > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:37:23 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sam Ismail > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? > > On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50 > > 6800 CPU available, and only the second 6800 CPU board of any stripe > > available from anyone AFAIK (Moto was first, of course). > > > > Here's the wrinkle: It's an unbuilt, BARE board. Given the somewhat > > historic nature of this article, what would you do? Build it as > > originally designed (most of the parts are still available), or > > leave the board blank, as is? > > If you're going to use it, build it. If not, keep it around for show > until you truly need it. Then build it. > [.sig snipped] From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Apr 7 14:42:13 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: FW: Y2K Message-ID: <002e01bd625d$5a5a7480$cc67bcc1@hotze> OK.. so, I admit, I wasn't even around then. I've never seen big iron in my life, and as far as I know, the school's still running on the Compaq PPro 200 that we got a while back. But here's my .02 on what would think in that same posisiton: >I know I was asking some of my friends what was going to happen as far >back as in the late 60' and early 70s when as high schools and college >students we were asking what happens if this machine should still be >running in the year 2000? Some of us considered that unlikely as the >pace for new machines at the time suggested it's life was maybe five >years and that pace was accelerating. It very well might be running today. Not doing the hardlabor tasks that it was origiohnally made for, but possibly as someone's hobby. Anyway, five years, and accelarating is a odd estimate. PC's nearly 3 or 4 years old are used day to day, as primary computer systems. The origionally cost around $2,000, and now can be effectively replaced for around $500-$800, yet they haven't. Sure, high end servers are still being produced, and in some institutions (even if I can't name any) are updated monthly or so with their server technology. What worries me is that around 2025, a system should last as long as you want it, as the speeds will probably be at the speed of light across the board, so there's no wait state. It's as fast as the software that you choose for it. The systems won't become obsolete. I personally belive that it's then that the speed of light will be broken, but I can't prove that, other than the belief that we will continue to grow and outcome obsticles. What then? Just my opinion, Tim D. Hotze From peacock at simconv.com Tue Apr 7 14:57:17 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A80C35F9@mail.simconv.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: J. Maynard Gelinas [mailto:maynard@jmg.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 2:06 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? > > BTW: anyone remember a BYTE article on the SwTPC sometime in > '78 regarding a very eary voice recognition and voice synth system > connected to house controls? I seem to remember that the upshot of it > was that it didn't work well and the poor author wound up showing off > his undershorts because the system misrecognized a command and opened > up the garage door at an inopportune time.... Maybe it was a Kilobaud > issue???? I'm pretty hazy on this, but I remember it made a big > impression on me as a kid. Yes I remember the article (it was humor) because a friend asked if I could build the same thing for him. I think it was Popular Electronics, there were no tech details so I'm sure it wasn't BYTE or KILOBAUD. Anyway, I was skeptical that it was real so I told my friend to contact the author before I took any of his money. My friend contacted the author for details. The author admitted he had embellished the capabilities and the article was more fiction than fact, although theoretically possible to do at the time. Jack Peacock From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Apr 7 15:08:28 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Seriously off-topic, but worth sending... (FUNNY) Message-ID: <13345971035.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I'm supposed to be playing with Windows NT Server now... (BLEAH!) But the hardware guys are playing around, and they won't build my server. They have all the parts. So, I started scrounging around myslef... Found a 486DX4/100, 16 meg or RAM, etc... But a proper case was nowhere to be found! So I got me a cardboard box and some masking tape... :) I showed the result to our upstream admin, and we was laughing so hard we has almost crying... It's SERVER IN A BOX! (If you can call it that...) My boss says it's OK as long as I power it off when I leave, so it doesn't catch fire. ------- From peacock at simconv.com Tue Apr 7 15:26:38 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: FW: Y2K Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A80C35FA@mail.simconv.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Hotze [mailto:photze@batelco.com.bh] > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 12:42 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: FW: Y2K > > > It very well might be running today. Not doing the hardlabor > tasks that it was origiohnally made for, but possibly as someone's hobby. > Anyway, five years, and accelarating is a odd estimate. PC's nearly 3 or > 4 years old are used day to day, as primary computer systems. The > origionally cost around $2,000, and now can be effectively replaced for around > $500-$800, yet they haven't. Sure, high end servers are still being produced, and in some institutions (even if I can't name any) are updated monthly or so with their server technology. Being from the Big Iron era (Univac 1100s and CDC 6000s), I can assure you no one ever believed any of those machines would last for 30 years. We knew the "fourth generation" computers based on large scale integration were coming, although what was expected was the bit slice type logic, not integrated microprocessors. No one ever questioned using 2 digit dates, because the programs weren't going to be used for 30 years. After all, how many 30 year old computers were still running in 1975? Back then a "legacy" program was supporting Autocoder from the 60s. Ten years was ancient and obsolete. Even in the 80's I saw very few software applications that switched to 4 digit dates. Our company converted to all 4 digit year dates in 1987, primarily because we were revising our major packages, plus we wanted to be compatible with some applications we OEMed along with our own software. Even in 87 I didn't think our programs would still be in use in 2000, but suprise, they will be. Was it brilliant foresight we converted way back then? Not really, more like plain dumb luck. But disk and memory were getting much cheaper by then, we could afford to use the extra space. When we only had 5MB drives and 16KB partitions the savings on 2 digit dates was significant, but once we had 100MB+ drives and virtual memory that was no longer an issue. Jack Peacock From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Apr 7 12:02:08 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: Seriously off-topic, but worth sending... (FUNNY) In-Reply-To: <13345971035.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <199804072059.QAA29624@mail.cgocable.net> > I'm supposed to be playing with Windows NT Server now... (BLEAH!) You GOT it, Seagraves. Seriously. In Yuk factor, this NT really take the cake. Took my boss months to learn and setup a NT server and 1,000's of reboots, each changes even one requires reboot. And a one dead PC too and few cards blown along with few boards that NT hates! I think I might able master Linux with good docs in very significent shorter time with more changes between fewer reboots. > But the hardware guys are playing around, and they won't build my server. They have all the parts. So, I started scrounging around myslef... > Found a 486DX4/100, 16 meg or RAM, etc... > But a proper case was nowhere to be found! > So I got me a cardboard box and some masking tape... > :) > I showed the result to our upstream admin, and we was laughing so hard we has almost crying... > > It's SERVER IN A BOX! > (If you can call it that...) > > My boss says it's OK as long as I power it off when I leave, so it doesn't > catch fire. Good guy! :) Funny. :) That NT really like 64mb ram just to get things running smoothly. I'm sure you need that laugh box so nothing will fall in there and burn out that machine and give your boss a nice start for the day. Jason D. > ------- > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 08:16:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: <199804070253.WAA12624@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 6, 98 10:53:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 854 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980407/437039b7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 08:20:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: <199804070312.AA18627@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 6, 98 11:12:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 492 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980407/8d527c7d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 08:24:56 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: <9804070248.AA30078@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Apr 6, 98 07:48:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 403 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980407/441a44d7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 09:53:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:12 2005 Subject: DEC 11/24????... In-Reply-To: <9804071514.AA24999@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Apr 7, 98 08:14:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1719 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980407/77ae15bc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 09:17:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Sperry 286 In-Reply-To: <352A5A7C.9B6CB0A2@bigfoot.com> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Apr 7, 98 09:55:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1001 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980407/7f9405ce/attachment.ksh From maynard at jmg.com Tue Apr 7 18:00:54 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A80C35F9@mail.simconv.com> (message from Jack Peacock on Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:57:17 -0700) References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A80C35F9@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <199804072300.TAA29326@mr-gateway.internal.net> > > Yes I remember the article (it was humor) because a friend asked if I > could build the same thing for him. I think it was Popular Electronics, > there were no tech details so I'm sure it wasn't BYTE or KILOBAUD. > Anyway, I was skeptical that it was real so I told my friend to contact > the author before I took any of his money. My friend contacted the > author for details. The author admitted he had embellished the > capabilities and the article was more fiction than fact, although > theoretically possible to do at the time. No, we didn't have a subscription to popular electronics at the time - but we did subscribe to BYTE and Kilobaud. God, I wish Wayne Greene would reinvent Kilobaud... that was a _great_ magazine! What ever happened to him? --jmg From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Apr 7 16:44:16 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: DEC 11/70... In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Apr 6, 98 09:08:20 pm Message-ID: <199804072144.OAA13975@fraser.sfu.ca> > > > > > > or 12.6vac or historically 12.6,12.6,12.6,35,50 (all Vac). > > > > Allison > > Gee! I think I can still lay my hands on a radio like that. I have about 30 of these old radios! They have much more personality than the current crop of receivers. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From amichael at nortel.ca Tue Apr 7 16:44:00 1998 From: amichael at nortel.ca (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: what do I do with a Multibus? Message-ID: <199804072145.OAA15426@mxu3.u.washington.edu> In message "CLASSICCMP digest 375", John Rollins writes: >Third card is another one from Intel, labeled "iSBC 576", with another >8086, two connectors on the top, and an SBC576 daughtercard. I checked my Intel "OEM Boards and Systems Handbook (1988)" but cannot identify this card, although the book lists many other Multibus boards. Intel sold their Multibus interests to Radisys some time back; they're on the web and maybe they can help. Both National Semiconductor and NEC made Multibus board clones, often with similar part numbers, so you might get lucky finding info if you're persistent. >Fourth card is a PROSE 2000, with a 26-pin edge connector and another >connector, and a bunch of EPROMs marked "Speech Plus (c)1983", and yet >another 8086 chip. Looks like the company name is Speech Plus Inc. I guess >this is a speech synth. Strange coincidence! I recently rescued one of these from a scrapyard (it was literally waiting to be ground up into metallic dust). Yes, it's a text-to-speech board, but I haven't had any success finding application data. The company that made it, Telesensory Systems, does still exist and I did call them looking for information. They were cordial, but could not help because the board was just too ancient for their support staff to have any useful knowledge about it. Too bad; I thought it might be welcomed by one of my local charities. I don't have Telesensory's phone number here but try a web search. If you can't find them let me know and I'll see if I can retrieve the number. Please keep me in mind if you do manage to track down some information on it. -- Arlen Michaels Nortel Ottawa, Canada (613) 763-2568 amichael@nortel.ca From aaron at wfi-inc.com Tue Apr 7 19:14:49 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Sperry 286 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > I can dig out details if you're interested, but aren't EGA monitors quite > common and cheap now? In some parts of the union, but the thrifts around here charge big screen prices for any and all computer monitors. An IBM EGA monitor might be $30-$50. I could probably get one for almost-free elsewhere, but the shipping costs are prohibitive there. I'll just troll for awhile and see what I come up with. Thanks. Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 7 18:18:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: S34 system Message-ID: <199804072318.AA04920@world.std.com> I got to meet Max today and see the S34. Nice machine is fair condition. His problem is that it's wired for 208 and from what I could observe all the transformer primaries are limited to the 200V range (208/220/240). Can some one up on S34s confirm that? All the power comes from three feroresonant transformers (CVTs) which explains the 580v warning (across the resonating capacitor). It would seem the only way to power it off 117v line is tansformer of the 1000-2000va size. I suspect the smaller will work as this machine while complete is not "loaded". It's biggest disk is an internal 69mb 8" with what appears to be a DC spindle. Anyhow for power it expects a single phase 208 L-L connection so a auto transformer may do it. It's been a while since I've seens linear regulators or possibly low voltage switchers of this size. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 12:49:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? In-Reply-To: <199804071715.MAA12548@onyx.southwind.net> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Apr 7, 98 10:54:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 907 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980407/e9766a6c/attachment.ksh From rexstout at uswest.net Tue Apr 7 18:38:59 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: S34 system In-Reply-To: <199804072318.AA04920@world.std.com> Message-ID: Well, I'm just thinking odd thoughts right now(specifically about converting a CB radio I have to the 10m amateur band), but if you can figure out all the output voltages that the computer uses, than it shouldn't be too hard to either build several power supplies to handle the large amounts of power it needs, or perhaps re-wind the main power transformers(or just replace them with somethign that has the same output). Which brings me to another thought, what IS the output voltage of the power supply/transformer(s)? And of course, if the hard(and floppy) drive motors need 220v, you can also look for replacement motors that run on 110v. That's what I'm going to need to do for my Series/1. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Tue Apr 7 18:55:46 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? In-Reply-To: <199804072300.TAA29326@mr-gateway.internal.net> from "J. Maynard Gelinas" at Apr 7, 98 07:00:54 pm Message-ID: <199804072355.TAA16080@shell.monmouth.com> > No, we didn't have a subscription to popular electronics at the > time - but we did subscribe to BYTE and Kilobaud. God, I wish Wayne > Greene would reinvent Kilobaud... that was a _great_ magazine! What > ever happened to him? > > --jmg > He's still alive and causing a number of posts in alt.folklore.computers. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Apr 7 20:36:47 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: PDP 11/53 help needed Message-ID: <352AD4AF.3E7BC2BC@bbtel.com> This was on the Obsolete Computer helpline and I just knew someone here could write this person to help... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lucien stevens belgium - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 15:52:57 i have a dec pdp11/53 can someone tell me how to connect an ascii terminal or a pc with a terminal program to make the pdp11 work. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mor at crl.com Tue Apr 7 19:01:24 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: System/36 in the Bronx: $100 Message-ID: <352ABE54.7D85D879@crl.com> This came off a web classifieds page: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- IBM SYSTEM/36 MODEL 5360, $100/OBO, Used Description MIDRANGE COMPUTER FULLY FUNCTIONAL WITH 5225 MODEL 2 PRINTER For sale by private party (718) 863-9651 fma bronx, New York 10462 -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 7 21:31:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: S34 system Message-ID: <199804080231.AA20720@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > power good logic tied to the front panel and power system. besides where > to you find a 110Vac to 5V@ 30+amps floating around. That and any fans Develcon Electronics was surplussing big power supplies a few years ago. I got a 5v 60A, +/-12v 3.4A supply for cheap. ($30 comes to mind... I'm not sure though.) I have no idea if they would still have any. Still, that only addresses one of your points. :-( > Allison From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 6 17:46:17 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: List problems ? Message-ID: <199804080351.XAA17353@smtp.interlog.com> Has anyone noticed any problems with the list dropping msgs ? For example I posted some replies to the "Good find" thread and never saw them. I see there was also a "Hyperion" thread which from Jason Pero's reply I presume was posted by Doug Yowza (sp ?). I figured at first it was just a glitch in my upload, but the "hyperion" miss says something else. I'll have to check this with my ISP, if no one else is having this problem. thanks larry lwalker@interlog.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Apr 7 23:56:25 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - Virtual Garage Sale In-Reply-To: <003501bd616f$769ff320$446fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980407215625.00946e50@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:19 PM 4/6/98 +0300, you wrote: >>qty. 1 - Compaq Deskpro 386/20e - $20.00 >> >>qty. 1 - Compaq Deskpro 433i - $30.00 >OK... are either of these spoken for? Do you know the stats for these? How >much RAM, HDD (if any) space, disk drives, etc, and does that include a >monitor? (And, if you can find it, what is the video card, etc.) The 433i appears to be spoken for, but the 386/20e looks like it might still be available. Someone else has a request in, but is waffling a bit. Should know in a day or so and then will get back to you with requested information. Price does not include a monitor, and the video is integrated on the motherboard. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 8 00:04:39 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - Virtual Garage Sale In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980407215625.00946e50@agora.rdrop.com> References: <003501bd616f$769ff320$446fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980407220439.00b001f0@agora.rdrop.com> URK?!?!? Sorry gang... Fell into the 'hit reply without verifying source address' trap... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Wed Apr 8 02:02:52 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: System/36 in the Bronx: $100 In-Reply-To: <352ABE54.7D85D879@crl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980408000252.007c1880@wingate> At 05:01 PM 4/7/98 -0700, you wrote: >This came off a web classifieds page: >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >IBM SYSTEM/36 MODEL 5360, $100/OBO, Used > I hope they mean they'll pay someone $100 to take it away. ;) Seriously, the 5360 is big and heavy, and most folk are just giving them away or paying to have them hauled off. BTW, wifie scored me an AS/400 Server with all the software and manuals for $400 today (dreams do come true). I don't know what model it is, so I'm not sure if it's a classic or not. If so, I'll post some details. David Wollmann dwollmann@ibmhelp.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 14:06:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Sperry 286 In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Apr 7, 98 05:14:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 773 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980407/6adbf4d0/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Apr 8 00:25:23 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980407145726.34d73e68@ricochet.net> At 01:25 AM 4/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Except, that people may feel it's easier (and/or safer) to just destroy the >> machine than it is to try and make sure no one can read their data. What > >It's rarely done, most people aren't that superstitious of electronic machines. Perhaps not in the past, but now that the average village idiot is using quicken and tax programs... They may not have used Dad's imsai, but they don't know that his old tax returns aren't in that old box. >> I agree that people should be responsible for their own data, but I also >> feel that we, as collectors, need to hold ourselves to a higher standard, >> so that people will feel comfortable giving us their old machines. > >If they actually gave us the machines. Most times they're swapped or sold cheaply. Whether or not they give them for free or for $, they have to feel comfortable doing it, or they won't do it. >Bad similarity...no one is paying you for confidentiality. Okay, surely you know someone to whom you don't tell anything personal because you know it'll be all over the office/neighborhood/local news within the hour. If people don't believe they can turn over their computers without having to worry about their tax returns showing up on the internet, they won't do it. >> Most of the people here probably know how to wipe a hard drive so it can't >> be read. (My best guess is a low-level format, then fill it with worthless >> data? Good thing I have nothing to hide!) But the average AOL user >> doesn't. When Grandpa passes on, you don't want the grandkids trashing all >And many have had to use level 3 read/write data destruction if they've worked for >the government. If the goverment is required to insure a clean machine to the >point of even installing a new hard disk prior to public sale, why should the >average Joe be protected in his or her sloppy handling of their private matters. >If you get right down to it they risk public viewing just by installing anything >on the hard disk and connecting to the net. I'm not advocating responsibility for the user's sake. If you care about the neighbors seeing you nekkid, pull down the damn shades. The reason I advocate it is because I don't want my neighbors boarding up their windows because they don't know if pulling down the shades is enough. I don't want people trashing significant machines because they heard about someone who knew someone who had a friend who heard about someone who gave a computer to a collector, and then those quickcam pics of the wife au naturel (that he thought he deleted) ended up on the 'net. Whether or not its true, and whether or not someone has pics like that, doesn't matter. The technoidiots will trash machines rather than take any risks. Don't believe me? Ever heard of the Good Times virus? >Not more of the one, but a picture or two of each machine. I realize you're just >working on the site but a picture really makes the site interesting to those not >familiar with the machines. A prefect example is the dual drive on a Rainbow. How >many people can even grasp the thought of putting a floppy in right way in one >slot, upside down in the other? I'm working on that. I've got 6 rolls of film to go to Price Club this week. Then I have to scan them, edit/crop/resize them, build a list of the pics (with dimensions and captions), come up with some snappy text, look for some links, and dig up the specs of the machine so I can build the web page. Whew. Don't worry, I'll get there. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Apr 8 00:25:27 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Old Data Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980407145932.34d73264@ricochet.net> At 01:04 AM 4/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >I've held onto machines that I would've happily given away except for the >time involved to go through the stuff on the hard disk and clean it up. [...] >What the world needs is a painless one button backup-and-clean program. Or a belief that they can turn the machine over to a reputable collector/museum who will do it for them. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 8 01:53:13 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: DEC RRD-40 CD-ROM Message-ID: OK, I'm stumped. What are the switch setting for the 4-switch DIP switch on the back of a RRD-40 drive? I managed to come up with a working configuration, but how safe is SCSI address 0 under VMS? I know the Hobbyist CD at least boots through the hardware search in Standalone backup (didn't have time to install tonite). Also what's the 4th switch for? Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From dastar at wco.com Wed Apr 8 00:54:24 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: (fwd) Obsolete computers looking for a home! (fwd) Message-ID: For you blokes down under. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: R.Alphey@forestry.unimelb.edu.au (Russell J. Alphey) Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm,aus.computers Subject: Obsolete computers looking for a home! Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 05:34:46 GMT Organization: School of Forestry, University of Melbourne It's time to clean up the spare room... These computers are available, free to a good home. Note that they are all in Melbourne, Australia. Shipping at new owner's cost! :) 1. Labtam CP/M system, with 8086 processor board add-in. Single 8" drive, with built-in monitor. 2. Micromation multiuser CP/M system. Has 4 processor boards, plus serial terminals. 20 Mb hard drive, dual 8" drives, QIC-24 tape unit. 3. 2* ??? CP/M systems, monitors have WOODEN sides! Come with processor unit, plus 2 * DISCUS 8" drives. All systems come with boot disks. Plus, I have a number of Olivetti M24, M28, & M280 systems to get rid off, same deal. Contact me by email to arrange something. I'm not going to wait too long before "dumping" these machines... R. R.Alphey@forestry.unimelb.edu.au -- end of forwarded message -- -- Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From adavie at mad.scientist.com Wed Apr 8 00:54:25 1998 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: (fwd) Obsolete computers looking for a home! (fwd) Message-ID: <017c01bd62b2$ca459360$70f438cb@nostromo> I would note that I have already claimed these items, about a week ago, but the Olivetti things are still available. Thanks, Sam, for the heads-up. Cheers A -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 3:55 PM Subject: (fwd) Obsolete computers looking for a home! (fwd) > >For you blokes down under. > > >Plus, I have a number of Olivetti M24, M28, & M280 systems >to get rid off, same deal. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Apr 6 20:54:49 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Recent Brother's Find, More PET info & 2.8mb floppy References: <199804060702.AAA28878@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <35298769.3B01057B@goldrush.com> Last week my brother found me something (usually I am the one finding 'stuff' for him. An overhead projector LCD unit! (circa 1987 so it's on-topic). It's a monochrome unit that approximates colors via greys but bhe really cool thing about this display is it's inputs: RGB and Composite Video! So next time I drag one of my Commodore 8-bits for a demo I have a an overhead display unti that works with it! (tested it with a Commodore 128 -in 64 mode-, the screen just fits in the visible area.) (manufacturer Computer Accessories) 00100111101010010010010011100100100001110010111001001001 Andre Fachat, another Commodore PET enthusiast has just opened his 'PET Index'. Much of it is on his latest toy the CBM 8296 (the last of the PET line -I think even after the SuperPET-) includes links to other valuable PET information (such as my PET FAQ). A good place to bookmark if you have any interest in PET computers: http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/~fachat/8bit/petindex/petindex.html 00100111101010010010010011100100100001110010111001001001 As far as anyone ever seeing a 2.8 mb floppy drive, yes, a friend of mine has one, for the Commodore 8-bit! Creative Micro Designs (CMD) a thriving Commodore peripheral, expansion, and accererator manufacturer for the Commodore 64/128 had used them for the FD-4000 series disk drives. The drives use ED (extended density?) disks (the high density hole is farther down than on HD disks and there is an ED on the casing.) Unfortunately CMD had to drop the line a couple years back due to the drive manufacturer dropping the model as there was not a big enough demand for them. :/ -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From ljw at formula1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 7 04:23:05 1998 From: ljw at formula1.demon.co.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Dick Smith System 80 S-100 Expansion Connections In-Reply-To: <004101bd6159$bdf86c40$32f665cb@eve> Message-ID: In article <004101bd6159$bdf86c40$32f665cb@eve>, Phil Guerney writes >The basic system works OK. What I want to know is how to connect up the >expansion box to the main box and the drives. The connecting cables are >standard flat multi-strand cable with the Pin 1 side marked in red. But >which is Pin 1 at the connection blocks? I don't want to kill this >beautifully clean unit by connecting it up backwards! If someone could tell >me which end of each of the connection blocks on the back of the console, on >the S-100 box and on the disk drives is the Pin 1 end, I would be grateful. Well, no-one else seems to have responded on the list, and maybe this isn't much help, but I am sure there is really only one way of connecting the expansion unit to the PC given that it sits behind, under the monitor, and the connectors are then adjacent. It doesn't matter which way round the cable itself goes as long as you don't manage to get it to do a 180 degree twist. The drive connectors should all be keyed, with the key near the pin 1 end. If you get them around the wrong way it shouldn't do any harm. IIRC the expansion unit was pretty grottily made, so if you have trouble it might be worth cleaning up all the connectors and reseating the ICs in their sockets. I think one it goes the idea is to glue everything to the table so the connecting cable isn't disturbed :-/ -- Lawrence Wilkinson ljw@formula1.demon.co.uk Ph +44(0)370-810293 Fax +44(0)7070-712851 http://www.formula1.demon.co.uk From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Apr 8 03:00:01 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: <199804072055.VAA20538@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <352B2E7E.6A00329A@ndirect.co.uk> You might if you had been had by someone in this list. If the man is a con, I think I am doing a public service here trying to stop him to strike again with somebody else. Thank you enrico lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > On 1998-04-07 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet.co.uk > :Warning! You might get something different from what you have > :bidded for. I did. > > keep your bitching private. nobody else gives a toss. > -- > Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling > you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Apr 8 08:05:36 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Seriously off-topic, but worth sending... (FUNNY) Message-ID: <9803088920.AA892066051@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >> I'm supposed to be playing with Windows NT Server now... (BLEAH!) > You GOT it, Seagraves. Seriously. > > In Yuk factor, this NT really take the cake. Took my boss months to > learn and setup a NT server and 1,000's of reboots, each changes even > one requires reboot. And a one dead PC too and few cards blown > along with few boards that NT hates! I think I might able master > Linux with good docs in very significent shorter time with more > changes between fewer reboots. We're being migrated to Windows Not Tolerable tomorrow, here at Power Tech. Wish me luck, or pray for me to any god you think might answer... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk PS I like the server in a box! Keep up the good work! P. From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 09:09:22 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: S/36 Books and equipment FS Message-ID: <352B8512.95873E3C@bbtel.com> I have a GOB of manuals with software in 5.25" (and one 3.5") disks for an IBM System 36. Here's a list of what's involved... (D) denotes disks (N) notebook/looseleaf (W) wirebound (V) Vinyl Folder Small format books: 1) PC Support/36 technical reference, IBM SC21-9097-3 (N) 2) IBM System/36 Procedures and Commands Summary SC21-9024-2 (W) SC21-9024-5 (W) 3) Getting Started with System/36 PC, SC21-9267-0 by SRA (D) (V) Large format books: 1) 5364 System Unit Maint Info, System/36, SY31-9020-1 & 9027-0 (D) (N) 2) Preparing to Install Your System 5364, IBM S/36 PC, SC21-9084-0 (D) (N) Setting Up Your Computer 5364, IBM S/36 PC, SA21-9505-0 Guide To Optional Equipment 5364, IBM S/36 PC, GX21-9817-1 3) Book Set - IBM S/36 PC System Support Prgramming, Configuration & Sort ZC21-9148 (N) 4) Book Set - IBM S/36 PC Communications Features, Feature 6047, ZC21-9155 (N) (D) 5) Book Set - IBM S/36 PC System Support Programming, 5727-SS6 Messages, ZC21-9149 (N) 6) Book Set - IBM S/36 PC System Support Programming, 5727-SS6, Operating Security, ZC21-9147 (N) 7) Book Set - IBM S/36 PC Utilities, 5727-UT6, SDA/SEU/DFU, ZC21-9197 (N) 8) Book Set - IBM S/36 PC Utilities, 5727-UT6, WSU/Messages, ZC21-9198 9) Disk Set - IBM S/36 PC System Support Programming, 5727-SS6, Diskettes, ZC21-9150 (N)(D) (40 +) ALSO included: AST 5251/11 - IBM PC to System 34/36/38 Computer Communications outfit. New, unused, in the box. Includes PC and S/34/36/38 5.25 and 8" disks as well as the cable and interface unit for the PC. So there it is....The total weight of all the binders, pages, disks, disk holders, etc is roughly 50 lbs. The 5251/11 enhanced S34/36/38 set which is another 10 lbs. Can be packed in separate cartons or in one 60 lb box. One box is cheaper to ship, of course. How much? $100 plus shipping for ALL the books and 5251/11 outfit plus shipping. I've had a few serious inquiries but no definitive answer back and I need the space. I paid $90 for this stuff myself so I'm making a few bucks basically to cover my gas in running it to the shipping point and my material in packing them. I don't mind getting this stuff to redistribute to people that need it as I know this stuff is getting hard to find. Otherwise you know where it would go. First one to contact me and actually send a money order (after contact) gets them. I'll need your zip code to figure shipping fees when you contact me. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 09:11:56 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Seriously off-topic, but worth sending... (FUNNY) References: <9803088920.AA892066051@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <352B85AC.66F7464D@bbtel.com> Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > >> I'm supposed to be playing with Windows NT Server now... (BLEAH!) > > You GOT it, Seagraves. Seriously. > > > >We're being migrated to Windows Not Tolerable tomorrow, here at Power > Tech. Wish me luck, or pray for me to any god you think might answer... I thought the NT stood for "Nice Try" ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From adavie at mad.scientist.com Wed Apr 8 08:10:47 1998 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings Message-ID: <01cd01bd62ef$c0608a20$70f438cb@nostromo> I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. I consider the use of this list in this way akin to dropping advertising leaflets in my mailbox, or ringing me up and asking if I want to buy insurance. Surely, the newsgroups and eBay, etc., are an appropriate place for regular sales? A mailing list dealing with the preservation of classic computers is not. Cheers A From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 09:20:01 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: <01cd01bd62ef$c0608a20$70f438cb@nostromo> Message-ID: <352B8791.B72ABBAF@bbtel.com> Andrew Davie wrote: > I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising > for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. I consider the use of this > list in this way akin to dropping advertising leaflets in my mailbox, or > ringing me up and asking if I want to buy insurance. > Surely, the newsgroups and eBay, etc., are an appropriate place for regular > sales? > A mailing list dealing with the preservation of classic computers is not. Is someone making profit on this old junk? I'd like to know who so I can find out how they do it. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 09:25:38 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: <01cd01bd62ef$c0608a20$70f438cb@nostromo> Message-ID: <352B88E2.DDCEBEFC@bbtel.com> Andrew Davie wrote: > I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising > for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. I consider the use of this Isn't this your message about being a buyer? "I would note that I have already claimed these items, about a week ago, but the Olivetti things are still available. Thanks, Sam, for the heads-up." How do you know if someone doesn't post it? I'm sure if you had an obscure machine without manuals or support equipment you'd be willing to see any and all messages concerning those items for sale, free, trade, etc in mass quantity. There are no formal businesses posting items that aren't within the 10 yr period such as the new systems for sale that get mass posted in the newsgroups, along with the porno site mail. If you aren't interested just say "delete". That's all. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Apr 8 09:27:27 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings In-Reply-To: <01cd01bd62ef$c0608a20$70f438cb@nostromo> from "Andrew Davie" at Apr 8, 98 11:10:47 pm Message-ID: <9804081327.AA01430@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1664 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980408/e52cb000/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 09:34:23 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: <9804081327.AA01430@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <352B8AEF.D9374E28@bbtel.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising > > for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. > > I would object, too, but most of the postings I see have no "obvious" > profit in them. (In particular, items are being sold for a couple > percent of their original sale price, and the "asking prices" honestly > barely cover the effort of packing them up securely and safely.) > > *Most* of the "for-sale" posts I read are just trying to find good homes > for equipment - a goal that I can truly appreciate, as I just had to > throw away about 5 tons of old iron before my last move. Thank you. I have a feeling that Andrew was just having a "bad mail day" and needed an outlet to blow off a little steam about my posts for equipment I occasionally swap for or buy to be able to lend a hand to those looking for them in this area. I could just as easily trade and buy parts I need for my direct part time at-home business and forget about the HP's, Suns, IMSAI's, S/36's, etc as these take up a lot of valuable space here as it is. If I get the unit for free I generally go for shipping only or a few bucks to make it worthwhile to box and haul it. I'm sure anyone else that has stuff does the same. What would a ham radio group be without swaps and sales? This is equivelant to the same idea. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 8 08:41:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings In-Reply-To: <01cd01bd62ef$c0608a20$70f438cb@nostromo> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980408084155.2f6fe66e@intellistar.net> I disagree. As long as the stuff being advertised is within the realm of classic computers it's appropriate to advertise it here and it is permitted by the guidelines for this mail list. I for one don't have the time to sort through all of the GARBAGE in the news-groups. The one thing that does piss me off is when people sell stuff on one of the high cost services like E-bay but place ads for it here. But I must admit that I've done it too. My $0.02 worth, Joe At 11:10 PM 4/8/98 +1000, you wrote: >I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising >for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. I consider the use of this >list in this way akin to dropping advertising leaflets in my mailbox, or >ringing me up and asking if I want to buy insurance. >Surely, the newsgroups and eBay, etc., are an appropriate place for regular >sales? >A mailing list dealing with the preservation of classic computers is not. >Cheers >A > > From adavie at mad.scientist.com Wed Apr 8 08:39:58 1998 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings Message-ID: <01de01bd62f3$d3b6f600$70f438cb@nostromo> Russ and list I admit to a bad mail day. The bickering between Enrico and Cord, was another area where TWICE I wrote a reply to the list and successfully staid my hand. I thought some were using the list as a profit making exercise, and I apologise for this error. I would still like to see prices kept private and simply "contact me if you're interested", but of course that is a matter of personal preference. I think we can close this thread, no? A From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Wed Apr 8 09:47:20 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Seriously off-topic, but worth sending... (FUNNY) In-Reply-To: <13345971035.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: You'd be surprised (or maybe not) how many S100 systems lived in cardboard. I used to have this Adaptec SCSI to MFM/RLL board connected between my old Mac SE and this nasty 3.5 inch RLL drive which would heat up so bad after 3 hours it'd just stop working...the only way to keep it cool was to wrap it in a thick ziplock bag with duct tape to hold everything together and HANG IT OUT THE WINDOW. This was during the winter so it stayed nice and cool. Had a bit of trouble with water in the bag turning to frost (more like water vapor) but the drive, which was only supposed to hang out there for a few hours so I could pull the data off it successfully and go through it while doing it, ended up spinning away outside the window for about two weeks before I did away with it. =-) A bit of nostalgia but not too far off-topic because it was 10 years ago, utilizing retro components (not at the time so much) and speaks to the weird stuff people did to get machines running. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > But a proper case was nowhere to be found! > So I got me a cardboard box and some masking tape... > I showed the result to our upstream admin, and we was laughing so hard we has almost crying... From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Apr 8 09:42:00 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Diamond D5 Wordprocessor Message-ID: Hi All, Has anyone had any experience with a Diamond D5 wordprocessor? Has anyone even *heard* of such a beast? One was donated to me a while ago after standing unused in a garage for a few years - apparently it was working when it went into store. However, nowadays if I put the system disk into the drive it seeks the heads, spins a couple of times, then all goes silent. There's no cursor or anything on the monitor, but having never seen the machine working myself I don't know if it should display anything at all before a successful boot completes. Basically I'm after more information before I can seriously start thinking about getting this thing going. Obviously I don't even know if the system disks are still good, let alone what sort of hardware faults exist inside... thanks for *any* help with this thing!! cheers Jules From ljw at formula1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 8 06:20:38 1998 From: ljw at formula1.demon.co.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Dick Smith System 80 S-100 Expansion Connections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In article , Lawrence Wilkinson mis-writes >I think one it goes the idea is to glue everything to >the table so the connecting cable isn't disturbed :-/ Please remove the three superfluous words in the above sentence :-) -- Lawrence Wilkinson ljw@formula1.demon.co.uk Ph +44(0)370-810293 Fax +44(0)7070-712851 http://www.formula1.demon.co.uk From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 11:17:35 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: <01de01bd62f3$d3b6f600$70f438cb@nostromo> Message-ID: <352BA31F.CF9FC629@bbtel.com> Andrew Davie wrote: > Russ and list > I admit to a bad mail day. > The bickering between Enrico and Cord, was another area where TWICE I wrote > a reply to the list and successfully staid my hand. I thought some were > using the list as a profit making exercise, and I apologise for this error. > I would still like to see prices kept private and simply "contact me if > you're interested", but of course that is a matter of personal preference. > I think we can close this thread, no? > Yup. I figured it was just a peak in something. I also must agree that when appropriate the pricing/trading should be kept private, as well as traffic between the buyer and seller. Message Kaput, onto more important things everyone. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 8 11:41:28 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: John Higginbotham? Anyone here know a John Higginbotham? Message-ID: <00e701bd630d$449e6d80$5067bcc1@hotze> Hi. Does anyone know what happened to him? Did he unsubscribe? I've tried to contact him privately, but with no luck. I didn't get an error message, however. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Apr 8 15:10:01 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: Message-ID: <352BD991.37692194@ndirect.co.uk> A real gentle-man! enrico Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > > > You are demontrating AGAIN that you don't care about other people feelings and > > problems. You are NOT in charge of policing this mailgroup. If you don't want > > to see this sort messages anymore help me to fix my problem. > > I'm not going to help you do shit. This is YOUR problem. This is NOT the > problem of classiccmp! Therefore, DON'T POST YOUR PROBLEMS ON CLASSICCMP! > I don't post how much of an ass I think you are, so don't post your > personal crap either! And you'd better bet that when I do take over the > list, I'll make sure YOU are on the list of moderated members since you > have proven time and time again that you can't police yourself. So show > some restraint and respect and KEEP YOUR GARBAGE IN PRIVATE E-MAIL PLEASE! > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From Marty at itgonline.com Wed Apr 8 14:40:35 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale Message-ID: <1998Apr08.154006.1767.94638@smtp.itgonline.com> Amen, Sam. Enrico, please use discretion in these issues. Personal issues should stay between individuals, not aired on the list. Tell us about your classic computer collection. I'm eager to hear about it. Marty Mintzell ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 4/8/98 3:22 PM A real gentle-man! enrico Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > > > You are demontrating AGAIN that you don't care about other people feelings and > > problems. You are NOT in charge of policing this mailgroup. If you don't want > > to see this sort messages anymore help me to fix my problem. > > I'm not going to help you do shit. This is YOUR problem. This is NOT the > problem of classiccmp! Therefore, DON'T POST YOUR PROBLEMS ON CLASSICCMP! > I don't post how much of an ass I think you are, so don't post your > personal crap either! And you'd better bet that when I do take over the > list, I'll make sure YOU are on the list of moderated members since you > have proven time and time again that you can't police yourself. So show > some restraint and respect and KEEP YOUR GARBAGE IN PRIVATE E-MAIL PLEASE! > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Apr08.152223.1767.36036; Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:22:26 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id MAA28636; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:09:33 -0700 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id MAA24588 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:09:23 -0700 Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id MAA27472 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:09:21 -0700 Received: from ndirect.co.uk (th-pm01-62.ndirect.co.uk [195.7.225.126]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id UAA31705 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:09:19 +0100 Message-Id: <352BD991.37692194@ndirect.co.uk> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 20:10:01 +0000 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Enrico Tedeschi To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From cad at gamewood.net Wed Apr 8 14:41:39 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: <01cd01bd62ef$c0608a20$70f438cb@nostromo> Message-ID: <352BD2F3.27D0@gamewood.net> Andrew Davie wrote: > > I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising > for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. I consider the use of this > list in this way akin to dropping advertising leaflets in my mailbox, or > ringing me up and asking if I want to buy insurance. > Surely, the newsgroups and eBay, etc., are an appropriate place for regular > sales? > A mailing list dealing with the preservation of classic computers is not. > Cheers > A Hi Andrew: As is usualy the case with comments of thi sort, you ARE right, BUT!!!! I have seen at least a few of the 'sale lists' where the stated reason for posting to this list, was to give the 'listmembers' a 'first crack' at the items. It's also pertinant _what_ is being offered for sale, Complete and operational systems, will probably do great on one of the 'aution' sites. Random repair pieces, odd boards, documentation, weird software, doesn't stand much of a chance of finding anyone who even knows what is being offered, if not posted here. Now, as far as I'm concerned, these ARE valid reasons for posting to the list. It then becomes a matter of 'reasonableness' as to how much, and how frequently. And that is something that is going to have to be left up to the individual doing the posting. _UNLESS_ the rules are changed to specify NO SALE items AT ALL, EVER. I don't think that the list has gotten so large or congested as to have to even consider going that route. Now your voicing of an opinion, will give others a basis for considering what they do, This opinion will also enter into their decision as to WHAT route to take. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 8 15:03:48 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A80C3600@mail.simconv.com> Charles A. Davis wrote: > It's also pertinent _what_ is being offered for sale, Complete and > operational systems, will probably do great on one of the 'aution' > sites. Random repair pieces, odd boards, documentation, weird It seems to me if the "for sale" was restricted to 10 years or older there would be no place for spam related "hot PII price list" stuff. I have never received a single spam price list listing a uVAX I, an IMSAI chassis, or a big price break on 16KB static RAM boards. Keep the For Sale mail, but how about labeling it with the "FS:" prefix in the subject so those who object can filter it out? I for one watch for the occasional odd S-100 card, where else am I going to see that kind of stuff? Jack Peacock From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Apr 8 14:54:58 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) Message-ID: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD54029C10DE@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Since Bill is absent, I'll presume to speak for him and the rest of us founding members. You'll notice that the name of the list, same as its charter, is "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers", not "preservation" although that is something we are all concerned with. Webster's defines "collect" in this sense as "to collect objects", which implicitly requires their acquisition! Blatantly commercial advertisements are not allowed, but collector for-sale ads are explicitly part of this newsgroup and are welcomed. Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to have them advertised here than on Ebay. Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Davie [SMTP:adavie@mad.scientist.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 6:11 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: my objection to recent postings > > I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising > for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. I consider the use of this > list in this way akin to dropping advertising leaflets in my mailbox, or > ringing me up and asking if I want to buy insurance. > Surely, the newsgroups and eBay, etc., are an appropriate place for > regular > sales? > A mailing list dealing with the preservation of classic computers is not. > Cheers > A From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 8 15:07:42 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: John Higginbotham? Anyone here know a John Higginbotham? References: <00e701bd630d$449e6d80$5067bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <352BD90E.6262C166@cnct.com> Hotze wrote: > > Hi. Does anyone know what happened to him? Did he unsubscribe? I've tried > to contact him privately, but with no luck. I didn't get an error message, > however. He was last heard from not much over a week back, offering up some VAXstations as I recall. In that message he mentioned he'd more or less dropped out of this list due to too much mail traffic from other lists, mostly RedHat's Linux lists. A concept I can understand, I'm subscribed to most of those myself and when I start a new contract, _something_ will have to be trimmed besides my beard. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 8 15:13:10 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) References: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD54029C10DE@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <352BDA56.5193985C@cnct.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens > them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices > than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to > have them advertised here than on Ebay. The postings that sparked this thread seem to be a couple inviting us over to Ebay to submit our bids. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Apr 8 16:17:29 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:13 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD54029C10DE@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Apr 8, 98 12:54:58 pm Message-ID: <9804082017.AA15550@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 512 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980408/293ba1b7/attachment.ksh From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Apr 8 16:18:40 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: <1998Apr08.154006.1767.94638@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: <352BE9AF.4CF5084A@ndirect.co.uk> Marty wrote: > > Amen, Sam. Enrico, please use discretion in these issues. Personal > issues should stay between individuals, not aired on the list. Tell us > about your classic computer collection. I'm eager to hear about it. > > Marty Mintzell > This is the most (and only) sensible message I had since I joined this list. I am glad you asked. For a start go and see it at I am afraid most of it is based (obviously) on British and European computers. I think you will find makers and model that you even did not hear about. Perhaps one I will be able to publish a proper description of them with related history. Thank you for your interest. Ciao enrico From maynard at jmg.com Wed Apr 8 17:12:04 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD54029C10DE@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> References: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD54029C10DE@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199804082212.SAA30946@mr-gateway.internal.net> I'll second this. What is classic-cmp for for if not as a forum for discussion? Isn't offering up equipment for sale, in the 'classic-cmp' charter, clearly on topic 'discussion'? I get plenty of spam, but rarely does the spam consist of VAXStation 3100's for sale... not even 'See naked women sitting _on_ VAXStation 3100's!' I would argue that it is in our benefit to both post items of interest to our local community, and track items which come up for sale on newsgroups and ebay. My .02 anyway. --jmg ps - As for the TRS-80 Model 4 on ebay, if anyone wants it I've got a bid up there but am losing interest fast... I didn't realize the PS was dead when I bid... if someone chimes up I'll rescind my offer and let the other it over. > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:54:58 -0700 > From: Kai Kaltenbach > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) > > Since Bill is absent, I'll presume to speak for him and the rest of us > founding members. You'll notice that the name of the list, same as its > charter, is "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers", not > "preservation" although that is something we are all concerned with. > Webster's defines "collect" in this sense as "to collect objects", which > implicitly requires their acquisition! Blatantly commercial advertisements > are not allowed, but collector for-sale ads are explicitly part of this > newsgroup and are welcomed. > > Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens > them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices > than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to > have them advertised here than on Ebay. > > Kai > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Andrew Davie [SMTP:adavie@mad.scientist.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 6:11 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: my objection to recent postings > > > > I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising > > for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. I consider the use of this > > list in this way akin to dropping advertising leaflets in my mailbox, or > > ringing me up and asking if I want to buy insurance. > > Surely, the newsgroups and eBay, etc., are an appropriate place for > > regular > > sales? > > A mailing list dealing with the preservation of classic computers is not. > > Cheers > > A > From adept at Mcs.Net Wed Apr 8 15:56:02 1998 From: adept at Mcs.Net (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <9804082017.AA15550@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: I've conducted scads of transactions on ebay and have yet to encounter a serious problem. I've also sold two items and had good luck with the buyers. The feedback system really helps buyers and sellers keep tabs on who's worth buying from or selling to. To keep me on topic, my latest cool acquisition (on ebay) was a low serial number C128B. Although, I paid _way_ too much money for it, I didn't have one yet and it looks cool. /:) Cheers, Dan On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens > > them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices > > than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to > > have them advertised here than on Ebay. > > That might depend on whether you're selling or buying, Kai :-). > > More seriously, has anyone here actually conducted a transaction > through Ebay? Did the highest bidder actually make payment in > a timely manner, if you were selling? > > Tim. > From maynard at jmg.com Wed Apr 8 17:29:33 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <9804082017.AA15550@alph02.triumf.ca> (message from Tim Shoppa on Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:17:29 -0800 (PDT)) References: <9804082017.AA15550@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199804082229.SAA30965@mr-gateway.internal.net> Tim Shoppa Wrote: > > > Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens > > them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices > > than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to > > have them advertised here than on Ebay. > > That might depend on whether you're selling or buying, Kai :-). > > More seriously, has anyone here actually conducted a transaction > through Ebay? Did the highest bidder actually make payment in > a timely manner, if you were selling? > I've never sold, but I have bought. I must admit, even after _asking the seller very nicely_ to package the goods carefully, he still just threw the item (an Atari 800) in a big box with newspaper; It arrived a mess of broken plastic. He currently claims to be working with UPS to refund my money instead of taking responsibility of it himself. I'm less than enthusiastic about ebay because of this. OTOH, I bought from someone else and he shipped the items wrapped in bubble wrap, boxed in peanut packing material... they arrived in beautiful condidtion and I sent off a thank you letter immeiately. I would say that you're taking a much worse risk buying through the auction houses because you have no idea what kind of person you're buying from. Here you may not meet the person, but we're a fairly close knit community. I feel much safer buying from the folks here. --jmg From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 8 08:31:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Diamond D5 Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: from "Julian Richardson" at Apr 8, 98 03:42:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980408/72470583/attachment.ksh From van at wired.com Wed Apr 8 16:33:02 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings In-Reply-To: <01cd01bd62ef$c0608a20$70f438cb@nostromo> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980408/67663091/attachment.bin From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 8 16:21:59 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <9804082017.AA15550@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens > > them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices > > than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to > > have them advertised here than on Ebay. > > That might depend on whether you're selling or buying, Kai :-). ...and your motives for same... (I'll explain that in a minute) I'm venturing in here since this thread started disturbingly close to the time that I started my 'virtual garage sale', so regardless of if that was a contributing factor or not I guess I'll wade in... As I noted in my posting, I wanted to give the group here a shot before I offered the items anywhere else. (the 'my latest auction on Ebay' postings give me a royal pain in the netherrealms!) I for one am a firm believer that the people here probably better represent "collectors" who are in it more for the preservation of the gear and (if I dare) love of the history and technology than for the money. There is little doubt that more money can be made by posting items (of general interest) to Ebay or similar places (witness the $2k+ Altair sales of late) but in many cases I would just as rather see the gear go to someone who will appreciate it for what it is than to some "retro-hacker wannabe" who has a bunch of money burning a hole in their pocket. (this was the part about motives BTW) Of course, if anyone where wants to offer $2-3k for an Altair... (sorry, could not resist) B^} But maybe thats just me... > More seriously, has anyone here actually conducted a transaction > through Ebay? Did the highest bidder actually make payment in > a timely manner, if you were selling? I've done a large amount of both buying and selling thru Ebay and with the exception of one (minor) dispute on a purchase (a misunderstood communication) I have had no problems either way. To date, items I have offered for sale on Ebay have been things that were unrelated or inappropiate (due to age, or lack thereof) to this forum. To date, I have never had a problem with promptly completing a sale. (some for a fair sum of money) Based on the business ethic demonstrated by the Ebay operators, this is the only place that I partipate in on-line auctions. I noted that someone commented that he was displeased with Ebay due to a poor packing job done on an item he purchased thru the service. I would only offer the opinion that Ebay simply coordinates sales, and takes no part in delivery. Just as with the people offering high amounts for seemingly minimal items, you can't always assume that someone selling thinks of any given item as anything special or that they know anything about packing. A little homework often tells me a lot about the people I am dealing with... Similarly, I reciently obtained some equipment from a person (not thru Ebay) who seemed knowledgable enough about computer gear, and did a fine job packing a (rather large) printer to be delivered to me. However the next day a box of spare parts and boards for the same printer (shipped from the same person, at the same time) arrived in a cardboard box, with no packing, crushed by UPS beyond any hope of salvage... Waddayado??? As for my 'virtual garage (pun intended) sale'... If this has in fact offended anyone, my apologies... I tried... FWIW... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Apr 8 18:39:32 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Apr 8, 98 02:21:59 pm Message-ID: <9804082239.AA02912@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 705 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980408/e967c83b/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Apr 8 18:29:59 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Modifications (was Re: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: Van Burnham's message of Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:33:02 -0700 References: Message-ID: <199804082329.QAA13791@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Van Burnham wrote: > ps...Upon reading the thread regarding the justification in > maintaining "modifications" made to a 128K Mac, I was reminded of a > nightmare I witnessed at a vids auction. It appears someone had > decided that it would be considerably more "state-of-the-art" to play > something new instead of a slow-ass game called Computer Space...and > proceeded to destroy the original board and monitor casing in order to > convert the sleek fiberglass metalflake cabinet to play Pac-Man > instead. I don't see why defacing a classic Mac (or "Frankentosh" as > they say) should be regarded as any less horriffic. Am I totally off > here? Anyone? No, you're just mostly off. The 128K Mac in question was one that had been upgraded with contemporary modifications during its useful service life, with the intention of making it do its thing, only better. It wasn't defaced, it was enhanced, with things that were designed for just that purpose, by someone using it for its intended purpose. And at its core it's the same 128K Mac. Gutting a 128K Mac to fit an SE/30's works inside would be stretching this notion of "enhancement" a bit more than I'm comfortable with, because so far as I know Mac users didn't do that sort of thing and that sure isn't what SE/30 works were designed for. (But I'm not a Mac guy and maybe someone did do this back then.) And if I knew of someone planning to do something like what you describe to a Computer Space machine today, well...I think that stretches this notion past the point of fatigue. I'd certainly encourage him away from such a course of action. What would I have done in, say, 1982 though? I don't know, I might have even helped do it, though I really don't think I'd have seen any point to it even then. Now, that said, the goals of collectors don't necessarily have much to do with the goals of the computer's contemporary users. Original unmodified 128K Macs will probably be of more interest to some, because they were The First Macintoshes (available for public sale, anyway), and being first does have a certain cachet. And the fact that many of their original users felt the need for such upgrades has made unmodified 128K Macs that much rarer today. -Frank McConnell From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 19:41:56 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: John Higginbotham? Anyone here know a John Higginbotham? References: <00e701bd630d$449e6d80$5067bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <352C1954.78D17D71@bbtel.com> Hotze wrote: > Hi. Does anyone know what happened to him? Did he unsubscribe? I've tried > to contact him privately, but with no luck. I didn't get an error message, > however. No, it seems he just disapeared. He had contacted me about something he wanted and never got back with me. He may have ended up in a hospital or gotten busy or out of town, etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 20:01:13 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) References: <9804082017.AA15550@alph02.triumf.ca> <199804082229.SAA30965@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: <352C1DD9.57981647@bbtel.com> J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > I've never sold, but I have bought. I must admit, even after > _asking the seller very nicely_ to package the goods carefully, he > still just threw the item (an Atari 800) in a big box with newspaper; > It arrived a mess of broken plastic. He currently claims to be > working with UPS to refund my money instead of taking responsibility > of it himself. Hope this ISN'T me!! Nope, I've never had an Atari 800 > I'm less than enthusiastic about ebay because of this. OTOH, I > bought from someone else and he shipped the items wrapped in bubble > wrap, boxed in peanut packing material... they arrived in beautiful > condidtion and I sent off a thank you letter immeiately. I would say > that you're taking a much worse risk buying through the auction houses > because you have no idea what kind of person you're buying from. Here > you may not meet the person, but we're a fairly close knit community. > I feel much safer buying from the folks here. I sure hope this IS me. I think it was anyway. To others that are reading this I want to say that USPS has never broken or lost an item I've sent but twice now UPS in various metro areas has dropped them and irregardless of the packing involved has managed to ruin them and took FOREVER to settle. You might even read the contract/shipping reciept as many UPS items go through a handling service that routes items to UPS and charges a hefty fee on top of that. If you read their fine print you'll see that certain ones do not insure items such as monitors, computers, etc even though they show a certain amount of insurance whether the automatic $100 or you pay for additional. Also be aware that I've sent items to close relatives and they've sent me items, properly wrapped and able to withstand all sorts of shock but yet some older items still manage to arrive in a different working order than when they left. The reciever (in very few cases) may also mess things up and then blame the seller for selling junk. Anyone in retail sales has seen this many times, whether it's meant as a con-job or just sheer stupidity of the reciever. Anyone that sells should be as honest as possible and anyone that buys should also be wary that these items are used and in an AS-IS state and legally carry no warranty unless the seller sends the buyer a printed copy of such a warranty. I'm glad to help people in the collector and hobby sector of computers get items that would otherwise fill the dumps and that they trust me enough to send prepayment for shipping and the items (when applicable). I also thank anyone that has sent me items for being honest and sending me what I expected. It's this 'commradary' of all involved in this type of computer hobby that makes things go so smoothly. As Maynard has noted, Ebay has some sellers with other objectives than helping each other, just helping themselves - to your money. Don't get me wrong, most sales are legitimate and good. The few that slam items loosely into boxes and send them just to complete a transaction are surely the few that make the others look bad. I personally stay away from Ebay and other auctions due to the fact that many items are so wanted by people that they get stupid sometimes and offer way over what an item should cost in any condition because they think they're going to get a "last of a dying machine" for their collection. Well that was my opinion...they say that "opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they usually stink" (excuse the profanity but it makes the whole thing work better - in my opinion) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 8 11:17:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale In-Reply-To: <352BE9AF.4CF5084A@ndirect.co.uk> from "Enrico Tedeschi" at Apr 8, 98 09:18:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 435 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980408/705c1fcd/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Wed Apr 8 19:10:31 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Burroughs B27? In-Reply-To: <352C1954.78D17D71@bbtel.com> Message-ID: There's a local surplus place selling a few Burroughs machines for $30 that look interesting, but I know nothing about them -- I'm not even sure they're computers. I believe they were used by Delta airlines. There's no clear model number on them, but the closest thing to one says "B 27 CLS" "3748 00681", so I'm guessing they are B27's which appear to be related to B25's which appear to be 186 boxen running BTOS (?) from 1985/86. I suppose I'll get one, since the price includes what looks to be a standard RS-232 terminal which might be useful. Anybody familiar with these beasties? -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 8 11:14:21 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD54029C10DE@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Apr 8, 98 12:54:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1032 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980408/25ee2331/attachment.ksh From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 8 19:23:35 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E86B@mail.simconv.com> > > I am afraid most of it is based (obviously) on British and > European computers. > > Why 'obviously'? I'm also a UK collector, but I think I've > got more US > machines than UK/european ones. In fact, when you move towards bigger > iron (minis/workstations/mainframes) you almost certainly end > up with mainly > US machines. > I learn something new almost every day on this list...Today I learned that computers were actually made in Europe and not just in the U.S. Now if someone would just explain why anyone would want to collect a euro-computer? Jack "tongue planted firmly in his US-centric cheek" Peacock From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 20:24:04 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E86B@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <352C2334.8613430D@bbtel.com> Jack Peacock wrote: > I learn something new almost every day on this list...Today I learned > that computers were actually made in Europe and not just in the U.S. > Now if someone would just explain why anyone would want to collect a > euro-computer? And of course the bulk of many of these are Asian made or made in Europe or America of Asian parts! I know I have to get back into antique radio repair most times to see items stamped "Made in USA". Many of these items are pre-1960 as well. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Wed Apr 8 19:24:25 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Burroughs B27? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > There's a local surplus place selling a few Burroughs machines for $30 > that look interesting, but I know nothing about them -- I'm not even sure > they're computers. I believe they were used by Delta airlines. There's > no clear model number on them, but the closest thing to one says "B 27 > CLS" "3748 00681", so I'm guessing they are B27's which appear to be > related to B25's which appear to be 186 boxen running BTOS (?) from > 1985/86. Quick follow-up: I found little on the web, but there is a Usenet FAQ that covers this machine. It sounds interesting enough to get: 1) What is CTOS? CTOS (Convergent Technologies Operating System) is a character based, multi-processing, preemptive multitasking, true message-based, microkernal OS. multiuser operating system developed by Convergent. Convergent was formed in 1979, by a small group of ex-Intel staff. Convergent Technologies merged with 3COM in 1986. Unisys purchased Convergent Techonologies in 1986. CTOS is now supplied by BULL & Unisys. BTOS (Burroughs Terminal Operating System) was a licensed variant of CTOS. [...] B27: (CM-002) First and only F-Bus model. 80186. Up to 1MB memory. Burroughs made these at its Flemington, NJ plant under license from Convergent. There is a module which allows F-Bus and X-Bus modules to be used with each other. Cluster speed is 1.8 Mbps, RS422. -- Doug From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 20:39:06 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Burroughs B27? References: Message-ID: <352C26BA.F5EE6A03@bbtel.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > There's a local surplus place selling a few Burroughs machines for $30 > that look interesting, but I know nothing about them -- I'm not even sure > they're computers. I believe they were used by Delta airlines. There's > no clear model number on them, but the closest thing to one says "B 27 > CLS" "3748 00681", so I'm guessing they are B27's which appear to be > related to B25's which appear to be 186 boxen running BTOS (?) from > 1985/86. > > I suppose I'll get one, since the price includes what looks to be a > standard RS-232 terminal which might be useful. > > Anybody familiar with these beasties? They are similar to the 25's that I used on Chanute AFB as an instructor up until we closed the base in 1993. There waa also a clone (physically and in working) made by NCR of both the B25 and 27. They did indeed run a BTOS (Burroughs terminal Operating System) and a BASIC using an 80186 processor housed in a square modular system that locked together. They had hard drive modules and even servers that sat on the floor with a weird type of removeable hard drive (Winchester?) When the terminal unit is turned on you should see a series of periods showing activity in logging to the server. If that stops then it's not connecting. I haven't seen one since and after hours of banging away on one to compile lesson plans I'm not too eager to see another too soon. There's a guy that was our custodian for the Burroughs at Chanute that now works at the U of Tennessee at Knoxville. His name is Elmer Baumgardner and his email is ELMERB@UTK.EDU. I'm not sure how much of all of that he remembers though since many changes in his duty stations since leaving Chanute and then retiring to a civilian job in a university with who-knows-what type of networks. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 8 20:41:00 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Burroughs B27? References: Message-ID: <352C272C.898461A6@bbtel.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > B27: (CM-002) First and only F-Bus model. 80186. Up to 1MB > memory. Burroughs made these at its Flemington, NJ plant > under license from Convergent. There is a module which > allows F-Bus and X-Bus modules to be used with each other. > Cluster speed is 1.8 Mbps, RS422. You're probably aware that Burroughs Business Machines was merged with Sperry to create UniSys then...They live in Blue Bell, PA now. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From chemif at mbox.queen.it Wed Apr 8 19:50:35 1998 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (RICCARDO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale Message-ID: <199804090050.CAA29310@mbox.queen.it> At 17:23 08/04/98 -0700, Jack wrote: >I learn something new almost every day on this list...Today I learned >that computers were actually made in Europe and not just in the U.S. >Now if someone would just explain why anyone would want to collect a >euro-computer? > Jack "tongue planted firmly in his US-centric cheek" Peacock Hmm,"The tongue goes where the tooth hurts" Riccardo ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONES ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager(DTMF PHONES)=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key |4 help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 8 20:46:01 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: <3.0.1.16.19980408084155.2f6fe66e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <352C2858.67ED200C@rain.org> Joe wrote: > The one thing that does piss me off is when people sell stuff on one of > the high cost services like E-bay but place ads for it here. But I must > admit that I've done it too. I would disagree with this as part of the continuing education in any collectable field is having some idea of what the market value is, and ebay certainly provides some guidance in that regard! From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 8 21:03:34 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings Message-ID: <34c89bf6.352c2c78@aol.com> In a message dated 4/8/98 9:48:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, marvin@rain.org writes: << Joe wrote: > The one thing that does piss me off is when people sell stuff on one of > the high cost services like E-bay but place ads for it here. But I must > admit that I've done it too. I would disagree with this as part of the continuing education in any collectable field is having some idea of what the market value is, and ebay certainly provides some guidance in that regard! >> Well, i'd be willing to argue that. i dont think i would consider ebay to set current market prices for anything. i have a friend who uses it, and he said it's great for the seller if one is selling anything quasi-rare or semi- unusual as the manic bidders want to outdo themselves and drive the prices way up. he said i should sell my apple //c lcd screen on ebay as he said one went for almost $400. besides, i have seen prices there fluctuate wildly anyway. david From mor at crl.com Wed Apr 8 20:32:49 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: Message-ID: <352C2540.5A8CC8B6@crl.com> Van Burnham wrote: > xoxo van Heh, I agreed completely with your stance on for sale posts above, but then you went waaaaay overboard with the following statements: > ps...Upon reading the thread regarding the justification in > maintaining "modifications" made to a 128K Mac, I was reminded of a > nightmare I witnessed at a vids auction. It appears someone had > decided that it would be considerably more "state-of-the-art" to play > something new instead of a slow-ass game called Computer Space...and > proceeded to destroy the original board and monitor casing in order to > convert the sleek fiberglass metalflake cabinet to play Pac-Man > instead. I don't see why defacing a classic Mac (or "Frankentosh" as > they say) should be regarded as any less horriffic. Am I totally off > here? Anyone? Well, there are two huge differences: first, the Mac was designed and sold as a utilitarian instrument, and its usage was *enhanced*, not inhibited by the modifications described; and second, near-mint condition ones are fairly easy to find at $5-to-$20 in most parts of the civilized world, and it is highly doubtful that it will ever be as hard to find as a Computer Space. There is no room for a "preserve everything in original condition" policy. You have to draw the line somewhere and accept, even encourage a bit of hacking/defacing in order to get more out of what we already have, before building still more. The upgrade of that Mac, in my book is a great example of that. Now, a Nutting Computer Space is a horse of a different color. I won't go into a bunch of reasons here, but I'm sure most on this list would agree that the first ever coin-operated video game should not be converted to Pac-Man or anything else. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From mor at crl.com Wed Apr 8 20:33:23 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) References: <9804082017.AA15550@alph02.triumf.ca> <199804082229.SAA30965@mr-gateway.internal.net> <352C1DD9.57981647@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <352C2563.7EFD52BD@crl.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > To others that are reading this I want to say that USPS has never broken or lost an > item I've sent but twice now UPS in various metro areas has dropped them and > irregardless of the packing involved has managed to ruin them and took FOREVER to > settle. Me too! After thousands of shipping transactions, I now discourage would be shippers from using UPS and going with USPS. I've been doing that now for several years, and still don't regret it. UPS has absolutely _destroyed_ way too much of my *sturdy* break-resistant merchandise for me to ever take seriously again. The reason they are hard to get reimbursement from is that a claim that a package was damaged is viewed as a claim of negligence against a union worker... Use your imagination here... -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From mor at crl.com Wed Apr 8 20:38:08 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: Message-ID: <352C2680.70847B4A@crl.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > [Enrico's computer collection] > > > > > > > I am afraid most of it is based (obviously) on British and European computers. > > Why 'obviously'? I'm also a UK collector, but I think I've got more US > machines than UK/european ones. In fact, when you move towards bigger > iron (minis/workstations/mainframes) you almost certainly end up with mainly > US machines. Ah, but in micros, it seems that Europeans have the advantage over us U.S. collectors. Most Euro guys seem to have a fair assortment of North American systems by Commodore, Atari, Tandy, Apple, etc., but I can't seem to find a Jupiter Ace, Oric 1, MSX-anything, Sinclar 48k, BBC-whatever, etc. here in California to save my life! -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 8 22:24:58 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: UPS (off topic) Re: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <352C2563.7EFD52BD@crl.com> References: <9804082017.AA15550@alph02.triumf.ca> <199804082229.SAA30965@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980408222458.224fd33e@intellistar.net> Since everyone is venting their feelings about UPS, I'll throw in my two cents worth. I called UPS today and enquiried about sending a 1/2" thick 8 1/2 x 11" manual via UPS and was told it had to packed in a double walled container with 2 to 4 inches of padding between the two containers. That's ludicrous! UPS is putting the burden to protect the packages on the shippers instead of their sloppy workers. The last time I was in the UPS shipping center I saw a worker at the customer service counter turn on the convyor belt and dump all the packages in the floor because the people in the back weren't taking them off fast enough. What's more, no one there seemed surprised or made any attempt to turn the conyor off until ALL of the packages had fallen off the end and dropped to the floor. I have other gripes with UPS besides their poor handling. I live in a major city and there is only one UPS shipping center here and between the long lines there and the travel time it takes me several hours to ship a package with them. It's not worth the hassles or the time to ship a $10 item that I MIGHT make a $2 profit on. Now I will only ship with UPS as a last resort. I have refused to sell several items because the buyer insisted on shipping with UPS, since it would have cost me more in time and aggrevation than what I would have made on the deal. Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 8 22:35:13 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: atari parts needed Message-ID: <67b93d2b.352c41f4@aol.com> I'm in need of a functioning power supply and a copy of ataridos 2.5 on 5.25 disk for a 65xe. private email with price, please. david From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 9 01:58:34 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: UPS (off topic) Re: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) References: <9804082017.AA15550@alph02.triumf.ca> <199804082229.SAA30965@mr-gateway.internal.net> <3.0.1.16.19980408222458.224fd33e@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <352C719A.3E75A760@bbtel.com> Joe wrote: > Since everyone is venting their feelings about UPS, I'll throw in my two > cents worth. > > I called UPS today and enquiried about sending a 1/2" thick 8 1/2 x 11" > manual via UPS and was told it had to packed in a double walled container > with 2 to 4 inches of padding between the two containers. That's > ludicrous! UPS is putting the burden to protect the packages on the > shippers instead of their sloppy workers. The last time I was in the UPS > shipping center I saw a worker at the customer service counter turn on the > convyor belt and dump all the packages in the floor because the people in > the back weren't taking them off fast enough. What's more, no one there > seemed surprised or made any attempt to turn the conyor off until ALL of > the packages had fallen off the end and dropped to the floor. Like i said, UPS has broken more than they've delivered for me. I just sent a Rainbow 100+ and a Vector 3 to the Anahiem area and USPS did everything right. It helps on my part having packing experience from 20 yrs worth of moves while in the AF. > I have other gripes with UPS besides their poor handling. I live in a > major city and there is only one UPS shipping center here and between the > long lines there and the travel time it takes me several hours to ship a > package with them. It's not worth the hassles or the time to ship a $10 > item that I MIGHT make a $2 profit on. Now I will only ship with UPS as a > last resort. I have refused to sell several items because the buyer > insisted on shipping with UPS, since it would have cost me more in time and > aggrevation than what I would have made on the deal. In the rural area I live in it's 50 miles to either shipping center. I have to deal with a router-mailer service that adds a fee. There's 6 post offices within any direction of my house within 5 miles of it.I do have to say one good thing for UPS. The driver that does my route helps keep UPS in business. Besides the fact that I know him from school days, he knows people by name, knows how they like deliveries made, always goes a little further to get the item to you and stops me in town if he sees me and knows I have a package. He's retiring in 5 yrs and I'm probably going to lose interest altogether after that. Now that we've all slammed UPS, let's get off on a good note and say that in the area where I live UPS at least gets the package to you. RPS, FedEx and others have a habit of calling me and telling me that I have to meet them as they don't deliver to rural route box addresses. Then I have to tell them to deliver it or send it back and piss off the shipper who's dumping a ton of money daily into their company. RPS is that way when I get items from MEI Micro in Ohio. USPS gets it to me in 4 days, UPS in 2-3 days, FedEx in 5-7 days and RPS in 2-3 WEEKS, if at all. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Apr 9 01:47:01 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: Message-ID: <352C6EE4.489BFC24@ndirect.co.uk> "Obviously" as people generally tend to stick with what it can be found locally and locally produced items. For example Timex-Sinclair stuff is rather scarse in UK and to find some of these to add to a collection requires lots of work, a sharp eye, more money and luck with the source. And not many are proepared to go into these problems. Cioa enrico Tony Duell wrote: > > [Enrico's computer collection] > > > > > > > I am afraid most of it is based (obviously) on British and European computers. > > Why 'obviously'? I'm also a UK collector, but I think I've got more US > machines than UK/european ones. In fact, when you move towards bigger > iron (minis/workstations/mainframes) you almost certainly end up with mainly > US machines. > > > Ciao > > > > enrico > > -tony -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Apr 9 01:54:30 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E86B@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <352C70A5.C313336C@ndirect.co.uk> Very funny! enrico Jack Peacock wrote: > > > > I am afraid most of it is based (obviously) on British and > > European computers. > > > > Why 'obviously'? I'm also a UK collector, but I think I've > > got more US > > machines than UK/european ones. In fact, when you move towards bigger > > iron (minis/workstations/mainframes) you almost certainly end > > up with mainly > > US machines. > > > I learn something new almost every day on this list...Today I learned > that computers were actually made in Europe and not just in the U.S. > Now if someone would just explain why anyone would want to collect a > euro-computer? > Jack "tongue planted firmly in his US-centric cheek" Peacock -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 9 02:01:00 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: <34c89bf6.352c2c78@aol.com> Message-ID: <352C722C.D8F2FBDA@rain.org> I guess this would depend on how the market perceives the pricing as seen on ebay. The Altairs that recently sold there for about $1.5K seemed extremely reasonable to me considering I was contacted a while back by someone wanting to buy one of my Altairs. They had sold their previous one for $3K. Every auction I have ever gone to has always had some clueless bidders bidding pricing up to the point where knowledgable bidders just laugh (and cry!) This debate surfaces every so ofter, and I continue to look at selling prices where there a number of buyers (such as ebay) as a place to watch re: the final pricing. SUPRDAVE wrote: > In a message dated 4/8/98 9:48:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > marvin@rain.org > writes: > > I would disagree with this as part of the continuing education in any > collectable field is having some idea of what the market value is, and > ebay > certainly provides some guidance in that regard! >> > > Well, i'd be willing to argue that. i dont think i would consider ebay to > set > current market prices for anything. i have a friend who uses it, and he > said > it's great for the seller if one is selling anything quasi-rare or semi- > unusual as the manic bidders want to outdo themselves and drive the prices > way > up. he said i should sell my apple //c lcd screen on ebay as he said one > went > for almost $400. besides, i have seen prices there fluctuate wildly > anyway. > From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 9 02:27:29 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale In-Reply-To: <1998Apr08.154006.1767.94638@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Marty wrote: > Amen, Sam. Enrico, please use discretion in these issues. Personal > issues should stay between individuals, not aired on the list. Tell us > about your classic computer collection. I'm eager to hear about it. And more importantly, personal e-mail should stay between individuals that the e-mail is communicated to, and not made public without consent. This posting of private messages to the mailing list that some people have taken to doing is god damn ridiculous, and I swear the next time someone does this I will go medieval on their ass. Have some fucken integrity. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Apr 9 02:47:47 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale Message-ID: <000e01bd638b$f793bb60$1f6fbcc1@hotze> >And more importantly, personal e-mail should stay between individuals that >the e-mail is communicated to, and not made public without consent. This >posting of private messages to the mailing list that some people have >taken to doing is , and I swear the next time someone >does this I will go medieval on their . On this issue, I have to agree with Sam. I mean, personal issues are not what we're talking about here. This is the ClassicCmp mailing list, there's an entire alt.psychology section of Usenet. Use it for personal issues/problems. Also, private messages are PRIVATE. If they were meant for the group to read, then they should have been sent there in the first place. Only publisize messages when it's ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. >Have some fucken integrity. This is what I disagree with. We're all reasonable. Now, you're going to complain about all of us being toddlers, but before you do, think of this. There are impressionalbe children on this list, myself being one of them. If you have a problem, treat it like a gentleman. We're all civilized enough to let people have their say. Make opinions pleasant for everyone to read. There's no reason to resort to profanity to expres emotions, or, more often then not, not expressing them. Tim D. Hotze From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 9 02:55:40 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <352C1DD9.57981647@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > To others that are reading this I want to say that USPS has never broken > or lost an item I've sent but twice now UPS in various metro areas has > dropped them and irregardless of the packing involved has managed to > ruin them and took FOREVER to settle. You might even read the > contract/shipping reciept as many UPS items go through a handling > service that routes items to UPS and charges a hefty fee on top of that. > If you read their fine print you'll see that certain ones do not insure > items such as monitors, computers, etc even though they show a certain > amount of insurance whether the automatic $100 or you pay for > additional. I don't know this to be correct. If you pay for shipping insurance with UPS and as long as you declared what was truly in the package, UPS will pay for the damage. My company has made at least 3 claims on computers that were virtually destroyed in transit even though they were packaged well. UPS did eventually pay all three claims. Yes it did take a while, but they did honor the insurance. If they didn't, it would be called fraud. > transaction are surely the few that make the others look bad. I > personally stay away from Ebay and other auctions due to the fact that > many items are so wanted by people that they get stupid sometimes and > offer way over what an item should cost in any condition because they > think they're going to get a "last of a dying machine" for their > collection. This is exactly why I don't buy through Ebay anymore. And more importantly, anything I used to buy on Ebay, with the high bid price pushed up by fools, not to mention the shipping costs, I'd find locally a week later for a tenth of the cost of what I paid on Ebay. > Well that was my opinion...they say that "opinions are like assholes, > everyone has one and they usually stink" (excuse the profanity but it > makes the whole thing work better - in my opinion) Words are pure. The only thing "profane" about words is how they are interpreted by the hearer. ;) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 9 03:03:35 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Burroughs B27? In-Reply-To: <352C26BA.F5EE6A03@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > There's a local surplus place selling a few Burroughs machines for $30 > > that look interesting, but I know nothing about them -- I'm not even sure > > they're computers. I believe they were used by Delta airlines. There's > > no clear model number on them, but the closest thing to one says "B 27 > > CLS" "3748 00681", so I'm guessing they are B27's which appear to be > > related to B25's which appear to be 186 boxen running BTOS (?) from > > 1985/86. > > They are similar to the 25's that I used on Chanute AFB as an instructor up > until we closed the base in 1993. There waa also a clone (physically and in > working) made by NCR of both the B25 and 27. They did indeed run a BTOS > (Burroughs terminal Operating System) and a BASIC using an 80186 processor > housed in a square modular system that locked together. They had hard drive > modules and even servers that sat on the floor with a weird type of > removeable hard drive (Winchester?) When the terminal unit is turned on you > should see a series of periods showing activity in logging to the server. If > that stops then it's not connecting. I have several modules, including a couple hard drive modules and a way cool "Voice Processing" module I picked up on Sunday for a buck (I can't wait to figure out what it actually does...I imagine its some sort of voicemail module which would be too cool). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 9 03:07:49 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings In-Reply-To: <34c89bf6.352c2c78@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > > The one thing that does piss me off is when people sell stuff on one of > > the high cost services like E-bay but place ads for it here. But I must > > admit that I've done it too. > > I would disagree with this as part of the continuing education in any > collectable field is having some idea of what the market value is, and ebay > certainly provides some guidance in that regard! >> > > Well, i'd be willing to argue that. i dont think i would consider ebay to set > current market prices for anything. i have a friend who uses it, and he said > it's great for the seller if one is selling anything quasi-rare or semi- > unusual as the manic bidders want to outdo themselves and drive the prices way I agree. Ebay is definitely NOT indicative of "actual market value". Its all based on scarcity, and scarcity varies from area to area around the country and the world. Someone thinking they got a great deal on a complete C64 system for $25 got ripped off since I can pick up something similar locally for less than $10. > up. he said i should sell my apple //c lcd screen on ebay as he said one went > for almost $400. besides, i have seen prices there fluctuate wildly anyway. Ugh! Don't do that! Sell it to someone who would appreciate and actually use it (like me! :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 9 03:11:03 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale In-Reply-To: <352C2680.70847B4A@crl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > Ah, but in micros, it seems that Europeans have the advantage over us > U.S. collectors. Most Euro guys seem to have a fair assortment of North > American systems by Commodore, Atari, Tandy, Apple, etc., but I can't > seem to find a Jupiter Ace, Oric 1, MSX-anything, Sinclar 48k, > BBC-whatever, etc. here in California to save my life! Very true. You euro-doods could make a killing on us stupid Americans if you started auctioning off easy to find Sinclairs, Orics and Thompsons on Ebay. The only obstacle to overcome would be shipping, but I'm sure a little creative direct advertising towards us could overcome that concern. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 9 03:30:29 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Burroughs B27? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > They are similar to the 25's that I used on Chanute AFB as an instructor up > > until we closed the base in 1993. There waa also a clone (physically and in > > working) made by NCR of both the B25 and 27. They did indeed run a BTOS > > (Burroughs terminal Operating System) and a BASIC using an 80186 processor > > housed in a square modular system that locked together. They had hard drive > > modules and even servers that sat on the floor with a weird type of > > removeable hard drive (Winchester?) When the terminal unit is turned on you > > should see a series of periods showing activity in logging to the server. If > > that stops then it's not connecting. Then what? All I got was the terminal (which I wrongly thought was a standard RS-232 terminal -- it appears to be much smarter and more tightly integrated than that) and the CPU module (plus an internal RAM expansion card). Can I do anything else besides stare at the following message: Burroughs Corporation R 1.1.0000 B27-CLS FM *************** > I have several modules, including a couple hard drive modules and a way > cool "Voice Processing" module I picked up on Sunday for a buck (I can't > wait to figure out what it actually does...I imagine its some sort of > voicemail module which would be too cool). A "couple" of hard disks, as in "one extra"? :-) -- Doug From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Apr 9 05:07:11 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Diamond D5 Wordprocessor Message-ID: Hi, >>> One was donated to me a while ago after standing unused in a garage for >>> a few years - apparently it was working when it went into store. >>> However, nowadays if I put the system disk into the drive it seeks the >>> heads, spins a couple of times, then all goes silent. >> >>Start out by opening the case and reseating all the boards in the >>cardcage. I seem to recall that there's quite a few boards in there, >>using 43 way edge connectors. Then check the PSU outputs - a good place >>to do that is at the 8" drive DC connectors, as at least that pinout is >>standard. I seem to remember that the PSU outputs were good - at least everything was as it should be at the drive connectors. The machine's in storage about 200 miles away from me at the moment, so unfortunately I can't check (one day I will get a place with a bit of space!!!) I never stripped the machine down and rebuilt it though. >>BTW, if you don't have the key needed to open the back of the machine, >>either pick the lock (it's a trivial wafer tumbler one) or flip the >>machine sideways and unscrew the plates on the bottom. That will release >>the back cover. The rest of the case then comes off. Heh heh, yup - I remember doing exactly that... >>> There's no cursor or anything on the monitor, but having never seen the >>> machine working myself I don't know if it should display anything at all >>> before a successful boot completes. >> >>Have you got the monitor cabled up correctly? There's a 10 way (?) ribbon >>cable _and_ a mains lead to connect. The monitor is getting HT power to the tube OK, and from what I remember the ribbon cable would only plug in the back of the system unit one way round, so that should be ok. It bothers me that there's no cursor or anything on the screen, but I don't know if there should be - chances are good that what little ROM this machine has would contain just enough to boot from disk and nothing else. It's a shame that the disks I have aren't known to be good - I have 2 or 3 system disks but all of them give the same results - disk seeks and spins on power up and then all goes quiet. let me know when you get your Diamond running! :) cheers Jules From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 9 08:56:52 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Burroughs B27? References: Message-ID: <352CD3A4.2D15269F@bbtel.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > should see a series of periods showing activity in logging to the server. If > > > that stops then it's not connecting. > > Then what? All I got was the terminal (which I wrongly thought was a > standard RS-232 terminal -- it appears to be much smarter and more tightly > integrated than that) and the CPU module (plus an internal RAM expansion > card). > > Can I do anything else besides stare at the following message: > Burroughs Corporation > R 1.1.0000 B27-CLS FM > *************** I never got very deep into them other than helping our CSO or just using it. My memory serves me as the terminals being dedicated to the server. That's why I gave you the email address of someone that was a CSO for the Burroughs. > > I have several modules, including a couple hard drive modules and a way > > cool "Voice Processing" module I picked up on Sunday for a buck (I can't > > wait to figure out what it actually does...I imagine its some sort of > > voicemail module which would be too cool). > > A "couple" of hard disks, as in "one extra"? :-) You didn't get a hard disk module? The unit is about 10 inches wide with that. I've never seen a voice processor on ours but it sounds like something neat to tinker with. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 9 09:01:37 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: <34c89bf6.352c2c78@aol.com> <352C722C.D8F2FBDA@rain.org> Message-ID: <352CD4C1.388DAF74@bbtel.com> Marvin wrote: > I guess this would depend on how the market perceives the pricing as seen on > ebay. The Altairs that recently sold there for about $1.5K seemed extremely > reasonable to me considering I was contacted a while back by someone wanting > to buy one of my Altairs. They had sold their previous one for $3K. Every > auction I have ever gone to has always had some clueless bidders bidding > pricing up to the point where knowledgable bidders just laugh (and cry!) > This debate surfaces every so ofter, and I continue to look at selling > prices where there a number of buyers (such as ebay) as a place to watch re: > the final pricing. Dang...I was at a local scrap yard (they bust things down and sell the different materials) and there was an Altair faceplate (smashed up and unuseable) laying in the top of the bin of steel. I wonder if the person that "donated" it to the scrapper knew what he or she had before they did this terrible thing? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 9 09:13:16 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) References: Message-ID: <352CD77C.67421E46@bbtel.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > >You might even read the > > contract/shipping reciept as many UPS items go through a handling > > service that routes items to UPS and charges a hefty fee on top of that. > > If you read their fine print you'll see that certain ones do not insure > > items such as monitors, computers, etc even though they show a certain > > amount of insurance whether the automatic $100 or you pay for > > additional. > > I don't know this to be correct. If you pay for shipping insurance with > UPS and as long as you declared what was truly in the package, UPS will > pay for the damage. My company has made at least 3 claims on computers > that were virtually destroyed in transit even though they were packaged > well. UPS did eventually pay all three claims. Yes it did take a while, > but they did honor the insurance. If they didn't, it would be called > fraud. Sam, reread the above statement. The carrier that routes the packages to UPS is the one that makes this statement on the reciept. UPS is slow but I agree, they do eventually pay out. They have a habit (like the government) of depreciating the actual value they'll pay on it though. > > transaction are surely the few that make the others look bad. I > > personally stay away from Ebay and other auctions due to the fact that > > many items are so wanted by people that they get stupid sometimes and > > offer way over what an item should cost in any condition because they > > think they're going to get a "last of a dying machine" for their > > collection. > > This is exactly why I don't buy through Ebay anymore. And more > importantly, anything I used to buy on Ebay, with the high bid price > pushed up by fools, not to mention the shipping costs, I'd find locally a > week later for a tenth of the cost of what I paid on Ebay. And sometimes 1/100th. I saw a C128D on there a week or so ago that got $250 for just the base unit and keyboard. I GAVE one away that same week, working and like new. > > Well that was my opinion...they say that "opinions are like assholes, > > everyone has one and they usually stink" (excuse the profanity but it > > makes the whole thing work better - in my opinion) > > Words are pure. The only thing "profane" about words is how they are > interpreted by the hearer. ;) I appreciate your comment. > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Didn't we all? The better of two evils and we got the other - my former "boss". -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Apr 9 09:26:27 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: <352CD4C1.388DAF74@bbtel.com> Message-ID: First, let me make an observation. Have you ever watched 6th graders at recess? They spend more time arguing about the rules than they do playing the game. Just an observation. Doesn't mean anything. =-) Second, I can't believe it. A friend of mine says he has an actual Frieden (sp?) Flexowriter in a storage locker that he'll give me! The Flexowriter was used as part of the console on PDP-1s etc. Steven Levy, in Hackers, described it (not exact quote) as sounding like a small machine gun battle. =-) I need to verify that that is what it is but does anything have docs for these things? Third, I've decided to set the SWTPC 6800 aside for a while until I can get some better test gear or until I get the patience to swap chips until I find its problem. I did lift the D input on the questionable flip-flop (which has now been replaced 3 times without change in behavior...so it's not the flip-flop) and *pow* the NOT HALT line goes high. System, however, is still somewhat goofed up so I'm suspecting a problem with the timing circuits which directly or indirectly drive all the other inputs on the flip-flop. There's also a 7400 and a 7408 in the timing circuit, used to do things to the clock. The 7400 has been replaced twice to no effect but the 7408 is the chip right before the timing stuff goes to the flip-flop and I consider it suspect. Final possibility are a pair of complementary transistors in a dip package that someone hacked on the board to replace the original transistors (TO package) that were there. At any rate, I've decided to focus on the Northstar Horizon (got one in the mail in good shape...it's not the crusty one in the garage) and the PDP-8s and PDP-11s in the garage. Don't worry...it's an attached, dry, semi-heated garage so they're no worse off than in the basement. The systems that need to be brought in and dealt with are 11/34 without programmer console 11/84 3 PDP8i I'm really excited about them because they're all in good shape...well the 11/34 MIGHT have a problem with the RK-05f. In the truck, on the way back from St. Louis the 11/34 broke loose from its straps (due to the lack of diligence on the part of my assistant) and rolled all over the truck. Hit the accellerator, *BOOOOOOM*, hit the brake *BOOOOOOM*. I thought someone had hit me with their car. But it appeared undamaged and I've heard stories about DEC gear being rolled down stairs and still working so I'm somewhat hopeful. ;-) The other thing I need to do is find uses for the pile of 386 and 486 boxes in my garage. It's 6 feet wide and 4 feet tall, neatly stacked. A few machines running the Ersatz-11 emulator, a couple more running some CP/M emulators, one or two for disk conversions, a few more for packet radio and I think I shut down my local power grid. =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 9 09:28:08 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings Message-ID: <199804091428.AA16451@world.std.com> Hi Zane, ---------- > From: Zane H. Healy > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: DEC RRD-40 CD-ROM > Date: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 12:53 AM > > OK, I'm stumped. What are the switch setting for the 4-switch DIP switch > on the back of a RRD-40 drive? I managed to come up with a working > configuration, but how safe is SCSI address 0 under VMS? I know the > Hobbyist CD at least boots through the hardware search in Standalone backup > (didn't have time to install tonite). Also what's the 4th switch for? if you have only four of them, should be parity. on the RRD-42 you have five of them, the fifth switching the 512/2048 bytes mode. I'm not sure about the rrd40, but hope it helps... cheers, emanuel From kyrrin at jps.net Thu Apr 9 09:44:56 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:14 2005 Subject: ForSale items on Classiccmp Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409074456.00e5cc30@mail.jps.net> Andrew Davie scribed... >I object to the use of the Classic Computer mailing list for advertising >for-sale items on an ongoing basis for profit. I consider the use of this >list in this way akin to dropping advertising leaflets in my mailbox, or >ringing me up and asking if I want to buy insurance. I'm going to assume that you're referring to Russ Blakeman's posts (please forgive me if this is inaccurate), and possibly to the postings of 'classic' systems in need of rescuing. My take on this is that I'm sorry you feel that way. For my part, I'm darn glad to have someone posting to the list who seems to have a steady stream of older gear available, and pretty decent prices to boot. There's still plenty of good information to be had in the list. The few 'For Sale' postings I've seen from Russ and others (Jim Willing for another example) have, if anything, increased the value of CLASSICCMP for me. Also, as I recall, CLASSICCMP's charter allows for the posting of such blurbs as long as what's being advertised is computer-related and of 'Classic' (greater than ten years old) vintage. As for systems needing rescue, darn few people who post that they're getting rid of systems to comp.sys.dec or comp.sys.dec.micro even know this list exists. I will always forward such notes, if I happen to see them, over to the list server. I know that doing so has resulted in at least a couple of rescues that might otherwise have ended up with the scrappers. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 9 09:32:17 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980409093217.00c26870@pc> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >Not only that, but offering items on Ebay instead of on this list, opens >them up to the speculative investor masses and creates much higher prices >than trading among collectors would produce. Trust me, it's much better to >have them advertised here than on Ebay. Yes, absolutely. For the first 30 seconds, it seemed like online auctions would be a great way to pick up discontinued items at a good price, but the high quality of information and easy availability drove prices up. Good for sellers, bad for cheapskate buyers. I find the online "auctions" drive prices for conventional PC stuff exactly to the average retail price, or sometimes even above that. As I wrote on 2/23: >Regarding the three Altair machines that were recently posted >to the net auction at ebay.com - they went from $1525 to $2025. >Mind you, these weren't complete systems. The software, extra >drives, etc. were auctioned separately. I was in contact with the guy who sold these before he submitted them to ebay. For a moment, I thought I had a line on a good deal: a well-off surgeon / ham / computer junk had died and his family didn't know what to do with the multiple garages of stuff. For the computers, they turned to the one computer-head nephew, who was smart enough to know the value of the machines as well as how to get the highest price - which I wholeheartedly but sadly supported. :-) Van Burnham wrote: >van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com >production manager >wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united >states Oh, no. Now we know we're cool, if Wired is watching. :-) That'll do wonders for prices if we get on the "Wired/Tired" list. As for list fragmentation, I'm tempted to reconfigure my extranet news server to support a prototype handful of classic computer news groups, just to see what happens. Private news servers make so much more sense than mailing lists. How many people are on this mailing list? Greg Troutman wrote: >Me too! After thousands of shipping transactions, I now discourage >would be shippers from using UPS and going with USPS. After thousands of UPS shipments, I say the opposite: the Sloth Office drives me crazy. They don't crush, they simple *lose*. Damage is most often a function of packaging materials. Don't re-use boxes unless they're in great shape. Be sure the box and packing materials match the mass and CG of the item inside. Yes, both UPS and USPS toss the box to the back of the truck and pile other boxes on top. Be prepared. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From maynard at jmg.com Thu Apr 9 11:33:19 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <352C1DD9.57981647@bbtel.com> (message from Russ Blakeman on Wed, 08 Apr 1998 20:01:13 -0500) References: <9804082017.AA15550@alph02.triumf.ca> <199804082229.SAA30965@mr-gateway.internal.net> <352C1DD9.57981647@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <199804091633.MAA32145@mr-gateway.internal.net> [followup throughout text] > Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 20:01:13 -0500 > From: Russ Blakeman > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) > > J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > > I've never sold, but I have bought. I must admit, even after > > _asking the seller very nicely_ to package the goods carefully, he > > still just threw the item (an Atari 800) in a big box with newspaper; > > It arrived a mess of broken plastic. He currently claims to be > > working with UPS to refund my money instead of taking responsibility > > of it himself. > > Hope this ISN'T me!! Nope, I've never had an Atari 800 NO! _YOU_ are the reason I pointed out that buying from members of the list is _safer_ because we are a 'close knit community'... No, both purchases through ebay were unrelated to the classiccmp list. One guy shipped me goods that were carefully packed, the other didn't... So, I guess the best advice to gleen from this is YMMV because two transactions don't make for a good sample base. Still... I warn folks, there are numnuts out there. > > > I'm less than enthusiastic about ebay because of this. OTOH, I > > bought from someone else and he shipped the items wrapped in bubble > > wrap, boxed in peanut packing material... they arrived in beautiful > > condidtion and I sent off a thank you letter immeiately. I would say > > that you're taking a much worse risk buying through the auction houses > > because you have no idea what kind of person you're buying from. Here > > you may not meet the person, but we're a fairly close knit community. > > I feel much safer buying from the folks here. > > I sure hope this IS me. I think it was anyway. > Yes, let me state for the record... I purchased an item from Russ, and not only did he ship out what we agreed upon, but even threw in an extra ('cause I guess he didn't want it). I am _completely_ satisfied by my transaction with Russ. Also, folks, I don't know about you but $30 - $50 bucks is chump change to me. Like a night out at a bar with friends... If something goes wrong with the transaction it's a PITA, but _not_ a disaster! With regard to the UPS Vs. USPS debate, I have to agree that USPS takes better care of my ground shippments than UPS. Unfortunately my local letter carrier steals my mail, often drops mail for the wrong address in my mail box, and regularly just throws all the mail for my building on the floor in the main entrance (where our mailboxes are). I've never had such poor service from the postal service... I do live in a 'slum' community in Cambridge - there are some dangerous parts of Cambridge, MA, believe it or not. A kid was shot right across the street from my apartment last summer... I heard the gunshot and watched the ambulances and crazyness ensue afterward. Wow, only blocks away from MIT and Harvard yet kids sell crack on my streetcorner. Welcome to the US. Anyway, the upshot of this is that while I'd rather use USPS because they seem to take better care of my packages, unfortunately my local letter carrier is an idiot. Yes, I've complained. No, no one at the Cambridge Post Office seems to care. Isn't there a federal law about this?!?!? --jmg > To others that are reading this I want to say that USPS has never broken or lost an > item I've sent but twice now UPS in various metro areas has dropped them and > irregardless of the packing involved has managed to ruin them and took FOREVER to > settle. You might even read the contract/shipping reciept as many UPS items go > through a handling service that routes items to UPS and charges a hefty fee on top > of that. If you read their fine print you'll see that certain ones do not insure > items such as monitors, computers, etc even though they show a certain amount of > insurance whether the automatic $100 or you pay for additional. > > Also be aware that I've sent items to close relatives and they've sent me items, > properly wrapped and able to withstand all sorts of shock but yet some older items > still manage to arrive in a different working order than when they left. The > reciever (in very few cases) may also mess things up and then blame the seller for > selling junk. Anyone in retail sales has seen this many times, whether it's meant > as a con-job or just sheer stupidity of the reciever. > > Anyone that sells should be as honest as possible and anyone that buys should also > be wary that these items are used and in an AS-IS state and legally carry no > warranty unless the seller sends the buyer a printed copy of such a warranty. I'm > glad to help people in the collector and hobby sector of computers get items that > would otherwise fill the dumps and that they trust me enough to send prepayment for > shipping and the items (when applicable). I also thank anyone that has sent me > items for being honest and sending me what I expected. It's this 'commradary' of > all involved in this type of computer hobby that makes things go so smoothly. As > Maynard has noted, Ebay has some sellers with other objectives than helping each > other, just helping themselves - to your money. Don't get me wrong, most sales are > legitimate and good. The few that slam items loosely into boxes and send them just > to complete a transaction are surely the few that make the others look bad. I > personally stay away from Ebay and other auctions due to the fact that many items > are so wanted by people that they get stupid sometimes and offer way over what an > item should cost in any condition because they think they're going to get a "last > of a dying machine" for their collection. > > Well that was my opinion...they say that "opinions are like assholes, everyone has > one and they usually stink" (excuse the profanity but it makes the whole thing work > better - in my opinion) From cad at gamewood.net Thu Apr 9 09:59:29 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) References: Message-ID: <352CE251.5610@gamewood.net> Sam Ismail wrote: snip > Words are pure. The only thing "profane" about words is how they are > interpreted by the hearer. ;) > > Sam Ah but SAM, while it's a reasonably correct statement. In the particular instance being refrenced, because of the word used, there wasn't _any_ grey area for 'interpretation'. This time, you were a bit 'over the line'. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 9 11:00:07 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <352CE251.5610@gamewood.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Charles A. Davis wrote: > > Words are pure. The only thing "profane" about words is how they are > > interpreted by the hearer. ;) > > > > Sam > > Ah but SAM, while it's a reasonably correct statement. In the particular > instance being refrenced, because of the word used, there wasn't _any_ > grey area for 'interpretation'. > > This time, you were a bit 'over the line'. Look, this discussion is not about my use of certains venerable words that have been with us English speaking people longer than most others. If I choose to express myself in way which you find objectionable then deal with it. This is the kind of content that definitely should not be posted publicly as it is entirelf off-topic, and I don't want to hear about it. Its just all letters of the alphabet. If you don't like the way they're arranged, hit the delete key. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From cad at gamewood.net Thu Apr 9 11:36:51 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) References: Message-ID: <352CF923.1BF5@gamewood.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Look, this discussion is not about my use of certains venerable words that > have been with us English speaking people longer than most others. If I > choose to express myself in way which you find objectionable then deal > with it. This is the kind of content that definitely should not be posted > publicly as it is entirelf off-topic, and I don't want to hear about it. > > Its just all letters of the alphabet. If you don't like the way they're > arranged, hit the delete key. > > Sam Hi Sam: You are right, they _are_ just letters. What was objectionable, was not the use of the 'objectionable' word, to start with. (That is quite easy to ignore, it's quite often 'verbal noise' similar to 'uhhh', during a conversation. It is also _usually_ the mark of someone who either doesn't have the vocabulary to be able to use a less objectionable word, or is too lazy (either physically, OR mentally) to invest the effort. that using less objectionable wording would entail.) It was your attempt to redirect the responsibility to the reader, when there wasn't any possibility of any other 'reading'. And, no, you don't have to use 4 other words to explain things. Just leaving out objectionable word to start with, would NOT have had any detrimental effect on the stated subject matter of this list. Chuck Ps This is going back thru the list, because it's in answer to a posted item. Otherwise, it would only go to you. C -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Apr 9 11:39:59 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980408150928.4a7f2d06@ricochet.net> At 10:54 AM 4/7/98 -0600, you wrote: >I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50 [...] >Here's the wrinkle: It's an unbuilt, BARE board. Given the somewhat >historic nature of this article, what would you do? Build it as >originally designed (most of the parts are still available), or >leave the board blank, as is? As with the Mac someone asked about, my answer is leave it as is; you can always build it later. Sure, assemble all the parts while they're still available, but don't do it until necessary. P.S., I still need your new address. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Thu Apr 9 13:50:26 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: It's getting lame in here Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980409115026.007c94b0@wingate> Come on guys, give it a rest. Half the postings in the last 30 hours or so have been some stupid argument about posting evil capitalist for sale ads on the list. Compare the total size of this drivel with the size of the ads. Talk about computers, OK? -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From aaron at wfi-inc.com Thu Apr 9 13:52:57 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <352CE251.5610@gamewood.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Charles A. Davis wrote: > > Words are pure. The only thing "profane" about words is how they are > > interpreted by the hearer. ;) > > > > Sam > > Ah but SAM, while it's a reasonably correct statement. In the particular > instance being refrenced, because of the word used, there wasn't _any_ > grey area for 'interpretation'. > > This time, you were a bit 'over the line'. Ya, but what's that old quote.... "Profanity is the one language *all* programmers know." As Sam would say, "F*ck'n A!" From circuitsurgeon at fwi.com Thu Apr 9 12:08:02 1998 From: circuitsurgeon at fwi.com (Gil Jasmin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Lets hear about COMPUTERS!!!!! References: Message-ID: <352D0072.5CCC@fwi.com> This WAS a computer discussion group,,,WHAT HAPPENED?? My E-mail is full of JUNK mail. -- Live Long and Prosper Gil Jasmin http://www2.fwi.com/~circuitsurgeon/neonking.html From red at bears.org Thu Apr 9 12:30:37 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <352CF923.1BF5@gamewood.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Charles A. Davis wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Its just all letters of the alphabet. If you don't like the way they're > > arranged, hit the delete key. > > > > Sam > > Hi Sam: > > You are right, they _are_ just letters. > > What was objectionable, was not the use of the 'objectionable' word, to Hi. Can anybody help me find---or send me information such that I would be able to make my own---composite video out cable for a TI-99/4A? This would be the one with a DIN plug at one end and a couple of RCA plugs a the other. ok r. ps What happened to the McQuary limit? From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Apr 9 07:34:47 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Mindset PC & Fortune 32:16 Message-ID: <199804091634.LAA01525@trailingedge.com> First the Mindset PC... I just received 2 Mindset PCs, one in the original boxes. I plan on testing the one in the original boxes and then storing it away. The other I plan on using. Here is what I know about these so far. They were 80186 based. Base unit came with 64K RAM, 32K for programs and 32K for video and 32K of ROM. It included 2 ROM/NVRAM cartridge ports up front. The expansion unit plugged into the top of the base unit and raised the RAM to 256K and added 2 360K floppy drives. In place of slots, the system has 6 cartridge ports in the back, 3 in the base and 3 in the expansion unit. Things like RS-232 ports, parallel ports, etc came in cartridges which slid into these ports. It also included a mouse. It had enhanced graphic features (for the time) driven by some special chips I believe. Connections in the back provide for RGB, Composite and TV hook-ups as well as Audio connections. And a cool graphics program called Lumena which included some animation capabilities. I understand there was some sort of genlocking capability as well. It almost appears that this was the "Amiga" of the Intel world. I'll know more after I've had a chance to do more than unpack and power up the system. I would like to know if anyone else here has one of these or any info for them. I have the Disk Operating System Manual and the Mindset Operation Guide but no real hardware refs. I'd be interested in any info on the hardware itself or software, carts, etc. Now for the Fortune 32:16... I've had two different models of these for a while now but without the Fortune terminal. These are 68000 Unix based systems and it appears that you need special keys on the terminal to cleanly startup and shutdown the system. I have been travelling and need to look into this a little better. Anyway, if anyone has one of these terminals they would like to pass on or could find out what code sequence the special keys send so I could re-program my terminals I'd really appreciate it. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu Apr 9 12:59:22 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at Apr 9, 98 09:26:27 am Message-ID: <199804091759.NAA23014@shell.monmouth.com> > The systems that need to be brought in and dealt with are > > 11/34 without programmer console > 11/84 > 3 PDP8i > > I'm really excited about them because they're all in good shape...well > the 11/34 MIGHT have a problem with the RK-05f. In the truck, on the way > back from St. Louis the 11/34 broke loose from its straps (due to the > lack of diligence on the part of my assistant) and rolled all over the truck. > Hit the accellerator, *BOOOOOOM*, hit the brake *BOOOOOOM*. I thought > someone had hit me with their car. But it appeared undamaged and I've > heard stories about DEC gear being rolled down stairs and still working > so I'm somewhat hopeful. ;-) Don't worry about the RK05f. If the head was retracted and locked it'll take almost anything. RKO5 war story follows: I had one that was bounced up and down two flights of stairs after being "scrapped" due to a fire at one site. I took it home, alcohol bathed the platter, reinserted it and booted RT11 without problems (and with the customer's data intact). The only real fire damage was the serial cables that were a bit charred and severed by (I think) axes. The beast (11/23 cpu in an 11/03 corporate cab) ran RT11 and served as a Sysgen test bed for a while until I sold it to a friend who modified the RKV11 for 18 bit addressing and ran RSTS on it. I head crashed an RK05 at DEC Princeton running RT11 on the finance 11/70 during a PM once. The head hit a 1/4 inch bulge in the disk platter caused by DEC Security mailing me back the disk standing on edge (touching one screw that holds the case on the platters ). (Don't ask me about that one... they had this policy of inspecting all packs coming out of training after someone tried to bootleg VAX/VMS in the mid '80's, anyway after about four weeks they send me back my RT11 games/gen pack with RT11v4 on it.) I figured a sysgen on the 11/70 would be quick and a valid PM test (since the diags already worked and the machine was down for the day for a move). I heard this loud ping ping ping sound and unloaded the pack to see a black scarred upper head. I had no spares and no time to get them and align the head in time. My coworker now in DEC Colorado said not to worry and scraped the head with a pocket knife removing the scar and we then alcohol cleaned it. The drive ran all diags and under the OS (RSTS/E 7.2) error free. Bill From van at wired.com Thu Apr 9 14:04:53 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980409093217.00c26870@pc> Message-ID: Ha ha...don't give me any ideas! ;) >Oh, no. Now we know we're cool, if Wired is watching. :-) >That'll do wonders for prices if we get on the "Wired/Tired" list. > >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From maynard at jmg.com Thu Apr 9 15:55:26 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <9804082239.AA02912@alph02.triumf.ca> (message from Tim Shoppa on Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:39:32 -0800 (PDT)) References: <9804082239.AA02912@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199804092055.QAA32399@mr-gateway.internal.net> [followup below] > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:39:32 -0800 (PDT) > From: Tim Shoppa > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Sale postings to classiccmp (RE: my objection to recent postings) > > > I noted that someone commented that he was displeased with Ebay due to a > > poor packing job done on an item he purchased thru the service. I would > > only offer the opinion that Ebay simply coordinates sales, and takes no > > part in delivery. > > Yes, I understand that. I suppose my question was "are the folks who > buy/sell through Ebay a bunch of lusers?". I've bought and sold many times > over Usenet, and I can usually tell what sort of person I'm dealing with > because I often insist on a phone conversation before concluding a > sale. Having an intermediary like Ebay decide on the buyer/seller > makes me a bit uneasy. (And no, I don't always sell to the highest > bidder!). > Tim (and whoever it was that wrote the previous passage - the reference was lost in the previous post), I'm the one who mentioned that I had problems with a bad shippment. While I don't blame Ebay, the origanization, for this situation, the fact is that I am now leary of ebay transactions because of it. What difference does it make if Ebay or the seller is responsible for a rotten packing job? The fact is that through Ebay I still don't 'know' the seller, and have nothing but my trust relationship with ebay to determine the integrity of the seller. Ebay promisses nothing.... Here I have the list family as my test of authenticity. A much better test IMHO.... I would trust a new list member as much as I would trust anyone on Ebay, but someone I've seen post for months or a year has much more credibility in my eyes. --jmg From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 9 15:30:12 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: <199804091428.AA16451@world.std.com> Message-ID: <352D2FD3.47079A27@bbtel.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > Whats scarier is the altair with the excepion of the board and transformer > was 90% aluminum, especially the front panel. Excuse me for the typo ;-[ -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 9 15:31:43 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: ForSale items on Classiccmp References: <3.0.3.32.19980409074456.00e5cc30@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: <352D302F.382E5D93@bbtel.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > Andrew Davie scribed... > > I'm going to assume that you're referring to Russ Blakeman's posts (please > forgive me if this is inaccurate), and possibly to the postings of > 'classic' systems in need of rescuing. > > My take on this is that I'm sorry you feel that way. For my part, I'm darn > glad to have someone posting to the list who seems to have a steady stream > of older gear available, and pretty decent prices to boot. He's shooting for a freebie, you know ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lisard at zetnet.co.uk Thu Apr 9 14:34:05 1998 From: lisard at zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale Message-ID: <199804091934.UAA06859@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> On 1998-04-08 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet.co.uk :You might if you had been had by someone in this list. If the man :is a con, I think I am doing a public service here trying to stop :him to strike again with somebody else. the email below was private. why did you post a public response? that is a breach of netiquette - which makes you look every bit as clueless as cord intimated. we'll ring you to complain in future. everyone else: apologies, but we felt we should point this out. :enrico :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: :> On 1998-04-07 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet. :>co.uk :Warning! You might get something different from what :>you have :bidded for. I did. :> keep your bitching private. nobody else gives a toss. :> -- :> Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you :>falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing :within her... :-- :======================================================== :Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK :Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) :please visit my website at: :======================================================== -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 9 15:35:41 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Lets hear about COMPUTERS!!!!! References: <352D0072.5CCC@fwi.com> Message-ID: <352D311C.A656D38D@bbtel.com> Gil Jasmin wrote: > This WAS a computer discussion group,,,WHAT HAPPENED?? > My E-mail is full of JUNK mail. > -- > Live Long and Prosper ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Now that's junk mail.... (Sorry, I have a problem with followers of television programs.) Gil is right though and I'm guilty as much as everyone else. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Apr 9 16:06:35 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: References: <352CD4C1.388DAF74@bbtel.com> Message-ID: >The other thing I need to do is find uses for the pile of 386 and 486 >boxes in my garage. It's 6 feet wide and 4 feet tall, neatly stacked. Well, since they are 386's and 486's I'd recommend finding a worthy charity that could use them, though you might be able to unload the 486's at a swap meet. Of course the smartalick answer that came to mind was to turn them on end, get some cement, and build a shed useing them instead of bricks :^) >A few machines running the Ersatz-11 emulator, a couple more running some >CP/M emulators, one or two for disk conversions, a few more for packet >radio and I think I shut down my local power grid. =-) I've got to confess I keep wondering when I'm going to do this or at least blow the fuses in the house. Haven't done either so far. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From spc at armigeron.com Thu Apr 9 15:00:30 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 9, 98 01:06:35 pm Message-ID: <199804092000.QAA24091@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Zane H. Healy once stated: > > >The other thing I need to do is find uses for the pile of 386 and 486 > >boxes in my garage. It's 6 feet wide and 4 feet tall, neatly stacked. Well, you could install Linux/Beowulf on them and get supercomputer performance, then rent space on them. Beowulf is clustering software for Linux developed at NASA and freely available. It's been used in several other labs with great results (from what I hear). Check out http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/linux/beowulf/ for more information. > Of course the smartalick answer that came to mind was to turn them on end, > get some cement, and build a shed useing them instead of bricks :^) Of course there's always that. -spc (Or set up a massively parallel web server and rent space out on it) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 9 12:53:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at Apr 9, 98 09:26:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980409/cf9dd06a/attachment.ksh From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Apr 9 14:25:03 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980408150928.4a7f2d06@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199804092004.PAA11882@onyx.southwind.net> Guys: Afer looking at a number of responses, Uncle Roger's position seems the most logical to me (besides, one other person suggested this also). I think I'll buy that parts to build this, and just keep it until needed. Building it won't be a priority, though. The MP-A wasn't exactly the best SS-50 CPU available. I have a NOS Thomas Instruments Super CPU, that I've wanted to build for years. Compared with other S-50 boards of that era, it had alot of cool features. I am working on getting a couple of scarce parts for its companion video board. Jeff > At 10:54 AM 4/7/98 -0600, you wrote: > >I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50 > [...] > >Here's the wrinkle: It's an unbuilt, BARE board. Given the somewhat > >historic nature of this article, what would you do? Build it as > >originally designed (most of the parts are still available), or > >leave the board blank, as is? > > As with the Mac someone asked about, my answer is leave it as is; you can > always build it later. Sure, assemble all the parts while they're still > available, but don't do it until necessary. > > P.S., I still need your new address. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 9 15:55:10 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: RK05 story -- was "Re: Wirehead Update" In-Reply-To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter "Re: Wirehead Update" (Apr 9, 13:59) References: <199804091759.NAA23014@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <9804092155.ZM24596@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 9, 13:59, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > I head crashed an RK05 at DEC Princeton running RT11 on the finance 11/70 > during a PM once. The head hit a 1/4 inch bulge in the disk platter Many years ago I worked in a high school that had some PDP-8s, one of which had a pair of RK05s and a collection of packs of dubious heritage. One of the parents was a DEC engineer, and volunteered to service the drives and check the packs. Two he condemned, on the grounds that using them might well damage the drive, but one in particular apparently passed his inspection, except that it rattled when it was picked up. Since this was the system pack, he was asked about this. He re-affirmed that it was OK, but agreed to open it up for a look. Out fell a Number 8 1" long woodscrew... but the pack was still worked fine. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu Apr 9 15:59:24 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 9, 98 06:53:45 pm Message-ID: <199804092059.QAA27334@shell.monmouth.com> > Did you clamp the heads and/or remove the pack from the RK05f before > moving it? If so, nothing to worry about. If not, then there's a slight > possibility that the heads have shot across the platter and done damage. > It'll probably be OK, though. I _may_ have some spare RK05f heads > somewhere (they are different to normal RK05 ones), but I can't be sure. > I thought RK05 and 5f's auto-parked (I seem to remember a metal ramp off the duck bill that they locked down on on power down. Bill (boy those field service days are getting dim) +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Thu Apr 9 16:02:03 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: RK05 story -- was "Re: Wirehead Update" In-Reply-To: <9804092155.ZM24596@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 9, 98 08:55:10 pm Message-ID: <199804092102.RAA28828@shell.monmouth.com> > > Out fell a Number 8 1" long woodscrew... but the pack was still worked fine. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > sounds like the screw I hit. BTW, I once saw an RK05 that ran 1 year between PM's with the filter still capped with the BIG RED shipping cap (but fully installed and clamped to the feed hose). Worked error free for a full year with no crashes. (Fixed by me and not noted in the site management guide. I'm still not sure who did the previous PM...) Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From maynard at jmg.com Thu Apr 9 17:57:21 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: <199804092000.QAA24091@armigeron.com> (message from Captain Napalm on Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:00:30 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199804092000.QAA24091@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199804092257.SAA32557@mr-gateway.internal.net> Or you could install linux on them and donate them to 3rd world countries as mail/usenet uucp machines for individual villages. This is a _useful_ and humane thing to do! --jmg > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:00:30 -0400 (EDT) > From: Captain Napalm > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Wirehead Update > > It was thus said that the Great Zane H. Healy once stated: > > > > >The other thing I need to do is find uses for the pile of 386 and 486 > > >boxes in my garage. It's 6 feet wide and 4 feet tall, neatly stacked. > > Well, you could install Linux/Beowulf on them and get supercomputer > performance, then rent space on them. Beowulf is clustering software for > Linux developed at NASA and freely available. It's been used in several > other labs with great results (from what I hear). > > Check out http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/linux/beowulf/ for more information. > > > Of course the smartalick answer that came to mind was to turn them on end, > > get some cement, and build a shed useing them instead of bricks :^) > > Of course there's always that. > > -spc (Or set up a massively parallel web server and rent space out on it) > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 9 16:40:31 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: what is a Vax Station 2000? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980409164031.484f4b5c@intellistar.net> I went to a trift store today and found something called a VaxStation 2000. Does anyone know what it is? I *think* the model number on it is VS 1410F-A. It's a box about 12 x 12" and 10" thick and has a handle on the front. It looks about like one of the small coolers that holds a six pack of your favorite refreshments. It has a bunch of connectors on the back includeing a BNC connector (LAN?) and SCSI connector and a large DB style connector with 4 rows of pin sockets. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 9 16:53:05 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Rabbit 286 ???? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980409165305.484f1926@intellistar.net> Today I bought three portable PCs marked "Rabbit 286". They're about the size of a large lunch box and have a keyboard that fastens against one side. When you remove the keyboard it uncovers a gas plasma screen. There are slots for two 3.5 drives on the right hand side and a door on the left side. Opening the door exposes the back of several expansion card slots. There's a label on the bottom that says "Chicony Electronics Co.", "Model 286G-A", "Gas Plasma Display" and "640H x 400W Dots". One almost works, one is dead and the third one is somewhere in between. Does anyone know anything about these? I'm wondering if it's possible to put a small 386 or 486 mother board in these. Joe From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Thu Apr 9 19:07:21 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Rabbit 286 ???? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980409165305.484f1926@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980409170721.007d53f0@wingate> At 04:53 PM 4/9/98, you wrote: > Today I bought three portable PCs marked "Rabbit 286". They're about >the size of a large lunch box and have a keyboard that fastens against one >side. When you remove the keyboard it uncovers a gas plasma screen. There [snip] > Joe > > I don't know if it's realistic to expect any help from them (I'm pessimistic after dealing with IBM since 1984), but Chicony have a web site: http://www.chicony.com/ Their keyboards were popular for a while, I haven't heard much about them lately. Looks like they're into notebooks these days. -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From peacock at simconv.com Thu Apr 9 17:25:23 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: what is a Vax Station 2000? Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E870@mail.simconv.com> A uVAX 2000 is a single board uVAX II with onboard peripherals. DEC sold them as workstations (VAXstation 2000) or as a small server (MicroVAX 2000). They are not CPU upgradable, but you can add expansion memory out to 16MB, an 8 port async serial board (thats the big DB connector that doesn't go anywhere) and a sync serial port. Standard was the MFM interface for a Micropolis 1325 (RD53) or Maxstor 2190 disk (RD54). The SCSI port was only supported for the TKZ50 tape drive, an old 95MB DLT type drive, although I think there was a 3rd party SCSI disk driver from Trimarchi (now out of business). The VAXstation had a graphics display for a non-standard monitor. Jack Peacock > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe [mailto:rigdonj@intellistar.net] > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 1998 9:41 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: what is a Vax Station 2000? > > > I went to a trift store today and found something called a > VaxStation > 2000. Does anyone know what it is? I *think* the model > number on it is VS > 1410F-A. It's a box about 12 x 12" and 10" thick and has a > handle on the > front. It looks about like one of the small coolers that > holds a six pack > of your favorite refreshments. It has a bunch of connectors > on the back > includeing a BNC connector (LAN?) and SCSI connector and a > large DB style > connector with 4 rows of pin sockets. > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 9 17:28:36 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: what is a Vax Station 2000? Message-ID: <199804092228.AA07590@world.std.com> Hi Soe, < I went to a thrift store today and found something called a VaxStation <2000. Does anyone know what it is? I *think* the model number on it is <1410F-A. It's a box about 12 x 12" and 10" thick and has a handle on th VS2000 aka baby vax. Nice machines using the first generation micorvax chip. They can be found with up to 14mb of ram but 6-12mb are typical and only 4meg needed to run VMS or Ultrix. They can take RX33(1.2mb) floppy and or any MFM drive like RD31(20mb st225), RD32(40mb st251), RD52(quantum D540 31mb), RD53 (micropolus1325 71mb) or RD54(maxtor 2990 159mb). There is a scsi bus but the rom boot only knows an oddball tk50 off that. The base machine did hires(1280x1024) video to a 19in mono monitor and there was color too. By shorting pins 8,9 of the db9 port you could connect a terminal instead. VMS is available via hobby license and is a very robust and sophisticated operating system and will fit on a single RD54 or can be made to fit in an RD53 without decwindows. There is a fair amount of free software for VMS as well. Also most have 10b2 eithernet unless someone robbed the lance card. I have three of them, I call them a half cubic foot vax. The taller ones have a base that addes expansion connectors for a like sized box that can hone another MFM disk, floppy or TK50 tape. Generally speaking I find them for free to maybe 15$ as they are on par with slower 386s meaning they run all the VAX software but it's only .9 vups. Despite that I've used one to serve several users and notes conferences (like a newsgroup). Their upside is that the power needs are only 160w at 110v and they are small. Allison From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Apr 9 17:28:10 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Rabbit 286 ???? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980409165305.484f1926@intellistar.net> Message-ID: > Today I bought three portable PCs marked "Rabbit 286". They're about >the size of a large lunch box and have a keyboard that fastens against one >side. When you remove the keyboard it uncovers a gas plasma screen. There >are slots for two 3.5 drives on the right hand side and a door on the left >side. Opening the door exposes the back of several expansion card slots. >There's a label on the bottom that says "Chicony Electronics Co.", "Model >286G-A", "Gas Plasma Display" and "640H x 400W Dots". One almost works, one >is dead and the third one is somewhere in between. Does anyone know >anything about these? I'm wondering if it's possible to put a small 386 or >486 mother board in these. Intersting... Well, you probably can put a newer board in, but it depends... What you have to do is take the entire thing apart and see what it has right now, it may be an odd shape... Since you have three of them, I would say fix up one of them to the normal 286 config, and then use the other two to make one or two upgraded versions, depending on what's wrong with them. Sounds like fun... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Apr 9 18:36:31 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: what is a Vax Station 2000? Message-ID: <01IVO78182B6AELVIE@cc.usu.edu> > They are not CPU upgradable, but you can add expansion > memory out to 16MB, an 8 port async serial board (thats the big DB > connector that doesn't go anywhere) and a sync serial port. Sorry, the big DB that doesn't go anywhere is used to add another MFM hard disk. It contains the control and data signals for the second drive. I've not seen the 8-port option, but I believe it plugs in place of the color graphics board. > The SCSI port was only supported for the TKZ50 tape drive, an > old 95MB DLT type drive, although I think there was a 3rd party SCSI > disk driver from Trimarchi (now out of business). Gerhard Moeller (I believe that's his name) has hacked over the SCSI driver for the MicroVAX 3100 to bring it up on the 2000. I've used the driver under VMS 7.1 to speak to a tape drive (this gives me a nice little package to take on travel; a 2000 with an RD32 and a TZ30). Since it's a full-up SCSI port driver, it can be used to support anything VMS knows how to talk to; disks, tapes, etc. I've heard of one fellow who is using a 2000 to burn CDs. I suggest looking around on dejanews for discussion of Moeller's driver. > The VAXstation had a > graphics display for a non-standard monitor. All 2000s include a monochrome display built into the motherboard. It is also possible to add on a color display. Rumor has it that it is not impossible to use both displays simultaneously, but I've never tried it (my color monitors have died over the years). Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From red at bears.org Thu Apr 9 17:51:15 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Burroughs B27? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: [mistakenly deleted attribution] > > They are similar to the 25's that I used on Chanute AFB as an instructor up > > until we closed the base in 1993. There waa also a clone (physically and in > > working) made by NCR of both the B25 and 27. And was itself manufactured under license from Convergent, whose machine it really was. I've got a Convergent Technologies CM001/8 that I've been (incredibly) slowly learning about for a year and a half. BTOS was licensed from Convergent also, who called it CTOS. The FAQ on the net is for a different series of machines made by Convergent called the 'Miniframe' and the 'Mitiframe', which were almost completely different from the CM machines, and were rather more popular too. Where the Miniframe used a Motorola 68k processor and ran CTIX (a sort of Unix), the CM machines were x86 based and ran CTOS, which I am led to believe is a real-time OS. The Miniframe may also have ran CTOS as an option, but I'm not sure. > I have several modules, including a couple hard drive modules and a way > cool "Voice Processing" module I picked up on Sunday for a buck (I can't > wait to figure out what it actually does...I imagine its some sort of > voicemail module which would be too cool). I'm pretty sure I read at least something about this module in one of the systems manuals I've got. I'll try to find the reference again if I remember. I'm pretty sure it's a voicemail/automated menu type system module. If my memory can be trusted, that is... ok r. From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Apr 9 18:03:01 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update Message-ID: <19980409230301.14688.qmail@hotmail.com> And then CNN would show UN jeeps pulling dozens of PCs with shotgun holes from soggy trenches in rwanda... > > Or you could install linux on them and donate them to 3rd world > countries as mail/usenet uucp machines for individual > villages. This is a _useful_ and humane thing to do! > >--jmg > >> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:00:30 -0400 (EDT) >> From: Captain Napalm >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >> Subject: Re: Wirehead Update >> >> It was thus said that the Great Zane H. Healy once stated: >> > >> > >The other thing I need to do is find uses for the pile of 386 and 486 >> > >boxes in my garage. It's 6 feet wide and 4 feet tall, neatly stacked. >> >> Well, you could install Linux/Beowulf on them and get supercomputer >> performance, then rent space on them. Beowulf is clustering software for >> Linux developed at NASA and freely available. It's been used in several >> other labs with great results (from what I hear). >> >> Check out http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/linux/beowulf/ for more information. >> >> > Of course the smartalick answer that came to mind was to turn them on end, >> > get some cement, and build a shed useing them instead of bricks :^) >> >> Of course there's always that. >> >> -spc (Or set up a massively parallel web server and rent space out on it) >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Apr 9 19:20:12 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: <199804091759.NAA23014@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > I heard this loud ping ping ping sound and unloaded the pack to see a black When I've heard that sound (and it wasn't pleasant) I always thought it sounded like shing shing shing but that's neither here nor there. =-) > scarred upper head. I had no spares and no time to get them and align > the head in time. My coworker now in DEC Colorado said not to worry and > scraped the head with a pocket knife removing the scar and we then alcohol > cleaned it. The drive ran all diags and under the OS (RSTS/E 7.2) > error free. Hmmmm...I'm feeling a bit more hopeful! =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Apr 9 19:26:38 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, since they are 386's and 486's I'd recommend finding a worthy charity > that could use them, though you might be able to unload the 486's at a swap > meet. Actually, I've considered that in the past but I've found that most worthy charities don't have someone with the knowhow or time to make them be useful. In Des Moines, there is a group that works on the machines and then donates them as well...but...let's just say, to be nice, that I'm not entirely confident of their...uh...ethics...because from the rumors I hear the folks that do the work end up getting the best stuff for themselves....even though it was donated for the express purpose of going to a worthy charity. :-/ We'll leave it at that. I'm sure other cities have groups, however, that are reputable and ethical so the above is not intended to cast aspersions on other groups. And, as I say, all I hear are rumors so I can't confirm it. Generally, I cannibalize them for parts to fix machines at work or to repair friends' computers or my own computers. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Apr 9 19:34:37 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't have the manuals, but I've dismantled and rebuilt a Friden > Flexowriter and almost got it aligned. One day I'll finish the job. > [Much useful and interesting Frieden info deleted for brevity] > Did you clamp the heads and/or remove the pack from the RK05f before > moving it? If so, nothing to worry about. If not, then there's a slight > possibility that the heads have shot across the platter and done damage. > It'll probably be OK, though. I _may_ have some spare RK05f heads > somewhere (they are different to normal RK05 ones), but I can't be sure. Well I went to pick up the 3 8i systems and then went over to the University to pick up the 11/34, which I thought was just the CPU box without drives. We only had an hour to get it into the truck and we pull up and the thing is the 6 foot rack with an 11/34, RK05f and RK05j. And they were all mounted in the top half with the bottom half empty. We about died, literally perhaps, trying to roll the thing into the truck. (At one point while rolling it out the door on the dolly...it took two of us just to tip the thing backward...it rolled over the lip and slid and started falling on us. Neither I nor my assistant is a weakling and we could barely hold it up. We were saved by a helpful student...literally. We weren't thinking much about the heads at that point. We had backed the truck into the loading dock next to the dumpster which was right against the ledge...we spent several minutes in the cold debating whether the truck or the dumpster was the better receptacle for the machine. The truck won. Of course, then the machine broke loose and the truck lost for a few minutes...but in a different way. =-) If the heads are toasty, I'll keep your email handy. Thanks. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Thu Apr 9 19:40:49 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s In-Reply-To: <199804092257.SAA32557@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: WIREHEAD'S CRAZY THOUGHT FOR THE DAY Using old 386 and 486 computers and their parallel ports to replace missing peripherals from true retrocomputing systems. Hmmm... I wonder if a 386, for example, with a properly programmed parallel port could emulate...say...a disk drive with a particular interface that you can't find anymore. Interesting thought? Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From spc at armigeron.com Thu Apr 9 18:40:15 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: what is a Vax Station 2000? In-Reply-To: <199804092228.AA07590@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 9, 98 06:28:36 pm Message-ID: <199804092340.TAA24367@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Allison J Parent once stated: > > VS2000 aka baby vax. Nice machines using the first generation micorvax > chip. They can be found with up to 14mb of ram but 6-12mb are typical > and only 4meg needed to run VMS or Ultrix. Cool. I have one of these (a uVAX2000) but the harddrive is going on it (I think something is loose inside and rattling around). > They can take RX33(1.2mb) > floppy and or any MFM drive like RD31(20mb st225), RD32(40mb st251), > RD52(quantum D540 31mb), RD53 (micropolus1325 71mb) or RD54(maxtor 2990 > 159mb). I have seveal MFM drives here, but what are the Seagate equivilents to the RD line? I have an ST-4051, ST-251, ST-277r-1, ST-4038 and one unknown one (made by Mitsubishi, has at least 4 heads and 904 cylinders and the only marking I see is TKS 56704). Finding information about the Seagates isn't hard (as Seagate has all that information on their web site) but I'm curious as to the equivilents to the RD line. > There is a scsi bus but the rom boot only knows an oddball tk50 > off that. The base machine did hires(1280x1024) video to a 19in mono > monitor and there was color too. By shorting pins 8,9 of the db9 port > you could connect a terminal instead. > VMS is available via hobby license > and is a very robust and sophisticated operating system and will fit on > a single RD54 or can be made to fit in an RD53 without decwindows. There > is a fair amount of free software for VMS as well. Do you know offhand if that comes with a development system (say, a C compiler? Or even just headers?) -spc (I have just too many computers for my own good 8-) From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Apr 9 18:54:17 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: TI99/4a Message-ID: <19980409235418.20168.qmail@hotmail.com> Today, I found two things in the trash. One is a VCR that eats tapes. Please e-mail me privately if you know what to do about that. The other is a TI99/4A with all of the packaging, but without the main manual, and any cartridges it might have come with. I will still go back tomorrow and check to make sure I didn't leave anything. Anyway, do I HAVE to have a cartridge to power it up? When I turn it on with the enormous TV switchbox, the TV shows nothing but snow. I flip all of the switches, but none fix the problem. Also, the little light on the TV switchbox doesn't turn on. Suggestions? Also, was there a word processor or something for it? Could someone send me a cartridge or two? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Apr 9 19:16:21 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s Message-ID: <000c01bd6415$e4a2b080$73010bce@fauradon> If you want it bad enough everything is possible. I do belive it is our duty to perform these tasks. An x1541 cable allows you to connect a commodore disk drive to a PC why not make it the other way around and use the PC as a disk drive "server" for the C64, VIC20 and C128? And that is only one thought. On a wall at Disney world or is that Epcot center (in the ) there is an inscription that says "If you can dream it, you can build it". The PC bus is so simple that even custom interface for the really wacky stuff can be built for a few $. I think Jameco still sells prototype boards for the ISA bus. Francois PS: I know this comes up regularly but... I'm changing ISPs What is the best way to deal with the address change? ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon -----Original Message----- From: Wirehead Prime To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 09, 1998 6:45 PM Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s > >WIREHEAD'S CRAZY THOUGHT FOR THE DAY > >Using old 386 and 486 computers and their parallel ports to replace >missing peripherals from true retrocomputing systems. Hmmm... > >I wonder if a 386, for example, with a properly programmed parallel port >could emulate...say...a disk drive with a particular interface that you >can't find anymore. > >Interesting thought? > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Apr 9 19:12:31 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s In-Reply-To: <000c01bd6415$e4a2b080$73010bce@fauradon> Message-ID: >The PC bus is so simple that even custom interface for the really wacky >stuff can be built for a few $. I think Jameco still sells prototype boards >for the ISA bus. Maybe, but those prototype boards can be EXPENSIVE... Although Radio Shack sells an 8-bit ISA prototype board for $20. I've seen similair boards for 16-bit ISA, PCI, PCMCIA and probably others at Fry's, but those are some of the more spendy models(especially the PCMCIA stuff). Jameco has a nice one with a breadboard on it(!!!) for $60, and prototype boards from $18-80. >PS: I know this comes up regularly but... I'm changing ISPs What is the best >way to deal with the address change? Write down the listserver addresses and which lists you are on, unsubscribe from everything, and then re-subscribe from the new account. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From kroma at worldnet.att.net Thu Apr 9 19:18:00 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s Message-ID: <022f01bd6416$20a22fc0$3687440c@kroma-i> >If you want it bad enough everything is possible. >I do belive it is our duty to perform these tasks. An x1541 cable allows you >to connect a commodore disk drive to a PC why not make it the other way >around and use the PC as a disk drive "server" for the C64, VIC20 and C128? >And that is only one thought. I believe that's already been done. -- Kirk From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Apr 9 19:18:50 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: TI99/4a In-Reply-To: <19980409235418.20168.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Today, I found two things in the trash. One is a VCR that eats tapes. >Please e-mail me privately if you know what to do about that. The >other is a TI99/4A with all of the packaging, but without the main >manual, and any cartridges it might have come with. I will still go >back tomorrow and check to make sure I didn't leave anything. Anyway, >do I HAVE to have a cartridge to power it up? When I turn it on with >the enormous TV switchbox, the TV shows nothing but snow. I flip all >of the switches, but none fix the problem. Also, the little light on >the TV switchbox doesn't turn on. Suggestions? Also, was there a >word processor or something for it? Could someone send me a cartridge >or two? The TI-99/4A is a nice little computer... No, you don't need a cartridge to start it up, but programs are distributed through them, as well as cassettes and floppies. Anyways, when you turn it on, it will show the splash screen, and will then go to a menu where you can select either the TI-Basic, which is in the ROM, or a program from a cartridge. If it's not showing anything on the TV, then either you need a new RF modulator, a new TI-99, or everything is fried. OK, I have my TI-99 in front of me here. On the right there is a hole in the side with a door on it, that is the expansion bus. Moving to the back, on the right there is the power connector and a DB-9 that, IIRC, is for the cassette tape interface. On the left side of the back panel is a 5-pin DIN connector that the RF modulator plugs into. And on the left side panel is a DB-9 for hooking up a joystick. I think the only thing I DON'T like about the TI-99 is the keyboard. It's just plain annoying. I don't suppose there is any way to hook up an extended keyboard from a PC? -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Thu Apr 9 21:19:53 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s In-Reply-To: References: <199804092257.SAA32557@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980409191953.007da100@wingate> At 07:40 PM 4/9/98 -0500, you wrote: > >WIREHEAD'S CRAZY THOUGHT FOR THE DAY > >Using old 386 and 486 computers and their parallel ports to replace >missing peripherals from true retrocomputing systems. Hmmm... > >I wonder if a 386, for example, with a properly programmed parallel port >could emulate...say...a disk drive with a particular interface that you >can't find anymore. > >Interesting thought? > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead I'd bet you could do it pretty easily with a bare-bones Linux install (why compile any more than you need to?). In that case you'd have access to oodles and oodles of working source code for examples. I'm still dreaming about xfacing an old IBM punched card reader with a PC running Linux. If I can ever find one that's working and for which I can scrounge CE docs. -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. \ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 9 17:59:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: RK05 story -- was "Re: Wirehead Update" In-Reply-To: <9804092155.ZM24596@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 9, 98 08:55:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1879 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980409/c6f67943/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 9 17:47:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update In-Reply-To: <199804092059.QAA27334@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Apr 9, 98 04:59:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1265 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980409/fd797e4b/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 9 19:53:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:15 2005 Subject: what is a Vax Station 2000? Message-ID: <199804100053.AA17239@world.std.com> <(MicroVAX 2000). They are not CPU upgradable, but you can add expansion from "Wirehead Prime" at Apr 9, 98 07:34:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 954 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980410/f7aafc67/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 9 20:46:52 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s References: Message-ID: <352D7A0C.A743B0B0@cnct.com> John Rollins wrote: > >PS: I know this comes up regularly but... I'm changing ISPs What is the best > >way to deal with the address change? > Write down the listserver addresses and which lists you are on, unsubscribe > from everything, and then re-subscribe from the new account. I prefer to do it the other way -- subscribe from the new address, wait a couple of hours, then unsubscribe from the old one. Otherwise, I might miss the _one_ message that solved all of my problems. (I also prefer to leave the old account semi-active for at least a month or so with a forwarding address). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 9 21:24:42 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: what is a Vax Station 2000? Message-ID: <199804100224.AA22556@world.std.com> < Cool. I have one of these (a uVAX2000) but the harddrive is going on i <(I think something is loose inside and rattling around). Maybe the power cord to the disk? <> They can take RX33(1.2mb) <> floppy and or any MFM drive like RD31(20mb st225), RD32(40mb st251), <> RD52(quantum D540 31mb), RD53 (micropolus1325 71mb) or RD54(maxtor 2990 <> 159mb). < < I have seveal MFM drives here, but what are the Seagate equivilents to from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 9, 98 10:24:42 pm Message-ID: <199804100243.WAA24629@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Allison J Parent once stated: > > > < Cool. I have one of these (a uVAX2000) but the harddrive is going on i > <(I think something is loose inside and rattling around). > > Maybe the power cord to the disk? Nope. It's IN the hard drive (I've taken the VAX2000 apart (a pain, but not as bad as the Tandy 6000s). > Most people have little knowledge of what VMS is. It's a multiuser, > multitasking OS designed for robust applications with high security. It can also handle realtime requirements (I'm somewhat familiar with VMS, having used it in college. I'm just curious as to what the hobby distribution of VMS includes). -spc (More of a software guy than a hardware guy) From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 9 22:25:44 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980409191953.007da100@wingate> References: <199804092257.SAA32557@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409202544.009eb210@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:19 PM 4/9/98 -0700, you wrote: >I'm still dreaming about xfacing an old IBM punched card reader with a PC >running Linux. If I can ever find one that's working and for which I can >scrounge CE docs. Well... if you even need to read some cards, and don't mind that it would be on a DEC card reader interfaced to an Altair 8800... Drop me a note! B^} >-- >David Wollmann | >dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. >DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM >http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. BTW: (noting your .sig) know where I could get some replacement sort brushes for an 083? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 9 22:43:18 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: CP/M In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980409202544.009eb210@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: I'd like to find (or build) CP/M for my only S-100 box (you know, the one with the Ithaca Audio CPU card). I have a BASIC boot disk for the machine, and I believe I can read/write the 5.25" floppy from my PC (via 22disk), but I have no idea what's involved in finding or building a CBIOS for this box and where the boot sector on the floppy is. I can imagine that this will be a difficult, but not impossible task, without any documentation for the machine or any of the components, but I figure I can dump the contents of the monitor ROM and disassemble off-line to find basic info about serial and floppy I/O. Is there a better way? -- Doug From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Apr 9 23:54:05 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: CP/M Message-ID: <01IVOIJK8SK2ADCPQW@cc.usu.edu> > I'd like to find (or build) CP/M for my only S-100 box (you know, the one > with the Ithaca Audio CPU card). I have a BASIC boot disk for the > machine, and I believe I can read/write the 5.25" floppy from my PC > (via 22disk), but I have no idea what's involved in finding or building a > CBIOS for this box and where the boot sector on the floppy is. The documentation for CP/M 2.2 is online at the unofficial CP/M web site. See http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/download/manuals/cpm22/index.html. You are interested in Chapter 6 and most of the appendices. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 9 23:56:30 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Wirehead Update References: Message-ID: <352DA67E.EA67D303@bbtel.com> Wirehead Prime wrote: > I'm sure other cities have groups, however, that are reputable and > ethical so the above is not intended to cast aspersions on other groups. > And, as I say, all I hear are rumors so I can't confirm it. Louisville has a similar group and gets anything and everything. On occasion I even get some of the items that they can't use and would otherwise go to the dump (which are my usual freebies for shipping only). They have people all over 6 or 8 counties doing donated work and by the time they get to a firend of mine they're down to machines that are total crap (for them anyway) or stuff they can't use, such as mca PS/2's. I in turn swap them for a reasonable amount of items they can use for the other donated machines such as SIMMs (which most donations are stripped of), video cards, etc. So in a round about way I pay for them the same as anyone here does when they barter or go to a thrift or conignment shop. The real problem here is that they work with visually impaired end users that need specific equipment and the donations are generally too limited. They do get some really nice machines, such as 486 and Pentiums but more often than not they get 286, 386SX and DX machines. Some can be used, some can't. The do appear to have reputable people in the Louisville building but the items they know nothing about or need parts from are in bad shape by the time they leave, usually piled in boxes of mixed items. > Generally, I cannibalize them for parts to fix machines at work or to > repair friends' computers or my own computers. Since I pay for the parts I swap them for, I usually sell them for a few cents on a dollar profit, or use in repairs of local household users to keep the costs down. A 386 PS/2 is a great beginner or kids machine for a family that has a limited budget and wants to get into the age of automation or wants a utility machine for the kids to be able to do term papers and other school related tasks. This keeps that main machine open for household accounting, games, extensive educational programs, etc. My biggest use of the parts I swap for or get cheap is a church homeschool group. They have a ton of PS/2's donated by Ford Motors in L'ville but of course industry has no use for items such as sound cards, but they do and I have a heck of a time locating any to get for them. Sure, they could buy new mca sound cards for $160, if they had the bucks to do it. The real bugger is when I have to file these even swaps (for business purposes) with the IRS. You have to do a complete form for EVERY transaction you do like this. I don't normally worry about my personal items, like the stuff I pick up here and there for myself, not connected with my part time (yeah right) business. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 10 00:08:32 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: what is a Vax Station 2000? In-Reply-To: <199804100224.AA22556@world.std.com> Message-ID: >The first software to download for VMS is CMUip (I think the cdrom has it) >so that IP connections can managed). I'm sure there are suitable C >compilers in the free/shareware domain. I'll second this! It's in it's own directory on the Hobbyist CD-ROM, nice having it installed since it means you can then Telnet into the VAX. Wouldn't mind knowing of the location of something like gcc for VMS though. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 10 01:03:11 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Test equipment - must sell soon Message-ID: <352DB61F.42258AE7@bbtel.com> Ive had this posted in the past but these are really getting in my way: *Tektronix 7612D programmable digitizer (scope w/o a screen) with two 7A16A plugins. No manuals or cables but it appears to be in terrific shape otherwise. $150 plus shipping or will consider trades. *Kontron KLA64 64 channel logic analyser - 2 complete units, cables, manuals, covers, software, etc. They also have an optional unit installed internally. Includes Axiom video printer. All items go as a package - $325 plus shipping. Sorry no trades and will not separate. Total weight about 160 lbs for everything. Can email detailed info to those interested. I bought these in an auction lot and the above pricing is what I have into them. I bought the auction lot to primarily obtain a digital oscilloscope for my shop but the above items are R&D oriented and realy have no use in my repair shop. Both are still supported by repair, calibration and parts outfits as well as the manufacturers. I have sources for the manual for the Tek 7612D and plugins as well so you don't need to be concerrned that you'll not be able to work it without a manual. The manuals for the Kontrons is very detailed and is from setup and use to parts and adjustment. I'm trying to be as discrete as possible about posting these and I'm sure some people are tired of seeing it come back up but there are new people to the list that may not know of them and possibly be interested. Please reply direct to me, not to the list. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Apr 10 01:08:49 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: eBay transactions Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980409095906.3a67402e@ricochet.net> At 06:29 PM 4/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >> That might depend on whether you're selling or buying, Kai :-). A *very* valid comment. >> More seriously, has anyone here actually conducted a transaction >> through Ebay? Did the highest bidder actually make payment in >> a timely manner, if you were selling? I have both bought and sold (mostly bought, though) through eBay. Mostly Classic Computers, Donald Duck stuff, and Miniature Land Rovers. Had one problem once, when the guy ignored me for a while, then eventually claimed to have previously sold the stuff I bid on. Never had a problem with a payment. Generally, stuff is well packaged, though one time, I bought a TI99/4A in the original box, and it arrived -- in the original box, covered with duct tape. I was heartbroken. I explained to the guy that I had been interested in the box as much as the computer, and he offered to refund my money. (I didn't take him up on the offer, just wanted to prevent it from happening to someone else.) For comparison, I once ordered a Donald Duck nutcracker (new) from the Disney catalog. The 6"x6"x12" nutcracker box came in a 2'x1'x3' box, with a few sheets of tissue paper, neatly folded on the bottom of the box. I was *not* happy. The feedback system on ebay seems to work pretty well, I think. I feel pretty comfortable buying and selling there. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Apr 10 01:08:53 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: eBay = Mkt Value? (was: my objection to recent postings) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980409160720.3a6758dc@ricochet.net> At 01:07 AM 4/9/98 -0700, you wrote: >I agree. Ebay is definitely NOT indicative of "actual market value". Its >all based on scarcity, and scarcity varies from area to area around the >country and the world. Someone thinking they got a great deal on a >complete C64 system for $25 got ripped off since I can pick up something >similar locally for less than $10. Well, "actual market value" is exactly what eBay is -- the value of an object (i.e., what it sells for) on the open market. Ya can't get much more open than eBay, what with it's internationalism. As to whether prices on eBay represent what experienced, knowledgeable collectors will pay, that's another story. And lastly, yes, values are determined in large part by scarcity. Here in San Francisco, a postcard with a picture of the Golden Gate Bridge will cost me 25 cents (or so). In New York, I'd probably have to pay a bit more for one, and still more if I were in, say, Ayr, Scotland. Here in the SF area, a lot of computers are readily available, and affordable. This is a very technically aware locale, and a lot of the people here were early-adopters of computer technology (unlike, say, parts of Pennsylvania that are primarily Amish.) So they'll be cheaper here than elsewhere. So people in PA can either pay higher prices there, buy over the net (including eBay), or hop a plane to SF. As a side note, it always makes me laugh when at antique shows when I see some item for sale for $15 that I know can be bought at Disneyland, brand new, for $3. But people pay those prices, because not everyone goes to DLand every year. >Ugh! Don't do that! Sell it to someone who would appreciate and >actually use it (like me! :) That's a tough call. Do you sell it to someone who will use it and appreciate it for what you paid for it, or do you put it on eBay so you can pay the property taxes? I haven't got an answer to that one yet. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Apr 9 02:06:16 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: conman Message-ID: <352C7367.E86AD8AA@ndirect.co.uk> This is NOT a private matter. I think it is my duty to warn others that there is a conman around. Regards enrico Russ Blakeman wrote: > Even though you live in the UK you're obviously not British, otherwise one small crack > at the buy would have been enough and you would have learned by your mistake. Isn't > this babbling enough already? Even if you got screwed, be a man and fac the fact that > from now on you need to be more careful. Drop the nasties and get onto enjoying your > computers. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ # 1714857 > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Apr 10 02:47:37 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: Message-ID: <352DCE98.EB052854@ndirect.co.uk> This is the man who wants to be a "moderator" enrico Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Marty wrote: > > > Amen, Sam. Enrico, please use discretion in these issues. Personal > > issues should stay between individuals, not aired on the list. Tell us > > about your classic computer collection. I'm eager to hear about it. > > And more importantly, personal e-mail should stay between individuals that > the e-mail is communicated to, and not made public without consent. This > posting of private messages to the mailing list that some people have > taken to doing is god damn ridiculous, and I swear the next time someone > does this I will go medieval on their ass. > > Have some fucken integrity. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Apr 10 02:55:00 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale References: <199804091934.UAA06859@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <352DD053.C42628C8@ndirect.co.uk> Why, are ashamed of it? enrico lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > > On 1998-04-08 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet.co.uk > :You might if you had been had by someone in this list. If the man > :is a con, I think I am doing a public service here trying to stop > :him to strike again with somebody else. > > the email below was private. why did you post a public response? that is > a breach of netiquette - which makes you look every bit as clueless as > cord intimated. > > we'll ring you to complain in future. > > everyone else: apologies, but we felt we should point this out. > > :enrico > :lisard@zetnet.co.uk wrote: > :> On 1998-04-07 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet. > :>co.uk :Warning! You might get something different from what > :>you have :bidded for. I did. > :> keep your bitching private. nobody else gives a toss. > :> -- > :> Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you > :>falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing > :within her... > :-- > :======================================================== > :Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK > :Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) > :please visit my website at: > :======================================================== > -- > Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling > you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From groberts at mitre.org Fri Apr 10 05:57:40 1998 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: E & L MMD1 8080 trainer board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401bd646f$7b128280$6d711d80@groberts.mitre.org> this sounds exactly like an 8080 trainer i've got. unfortunately it is packed away now but i will be getting to it next week and can give you more information then. it does indeed expect a 2708 eprom in one of the sockets and yes I can give you the source code for KEX (Keyboard Executive). I can also tell you the correct labeling for the keys. if this is what i'm thinking it is it was described in the book "8080 Bugbook" and also in an article in one of the electronics hobbyist magazines, probably Radio Electronics in the mid 70's. I'll post more information when i get at my unit. - glenn > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Monday, April 06, 1998 4:07 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: E & L MMD1 8080 trainer board > > > I picked up a few new toys at a radio rally (hamfest) yesterday, and > while I've got docs on some of them, others I know nothing about so I'll > be asking here as and when I start looking at them. > > The first is an 8080 trainer/demo board made by E&J Instruments > Incorportated, 61 1st street, Derby, Conn. > > It's a sloping-top metal case - the top is a large PCB. Inside there's a > power transformer and what's obviously a PSU regulator board. > > On the top PCB there are 4 PSU output terminals (Gnd, +5, +12, -12) and > the following areas marked off by white silk-screen > > Voltage regulator (2-terminal components only - -5V supply?) > Clock (8224 + xtal) > Control logic (4 TTL chips) > The 8080 CPU in a Textool ZIF socket. If it makes any difference, it's > an NEC chip > Bus Drivers (2 off 8216) > Memory Decoder ('LS05, 'LS155) > Memory (4 off 2114 RAM, 24 pin DIP socket, 24 pin Textool ZIF socket) > I/O decoder (3 TTL chips, including an 'L42) > Buffer (4 off '04). > Port 0-2. 3 areas, each containing 2 off '75 latch, 8 leds, 8 resistors. > Keyboard encoder (4 TTL chips) > Below the keyboard encoder there's a 16 key keypad. Keys are 0-7, H, L, > G, S, Reset, A, B, missing label > > There's also one of those solderless plugblock breadboards. Some of the > strips at one end of this are connected to the 8080 bus (A0-A7, D0-D7, > control lines). There are also little sockets for each of the output port > lines, some more near the I/O decoder 'L42 (port select signals?) and a > few more dotted about the board (halt, M1, reset, etc) > > Does anyone recognise this board. I assume there should have been an > EPROM, probably a 2708, in one of the 24 pin sockets. If anyone has this, > I'd love a hex dump of it. Also, what should the missing key be labelled? > > I could trace out the schematics and write a monitor program for it - in > fact I may have to, but if anyone knows this unit it could save me a lot > of work. > > -tony > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Apr 10 06:10:45 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: eBay transactions Message-ID: <722e1c9a.352dfe38@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-10 02:14:22 EDT, you write: << At 06:29 PM 4/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >> That might depend on whether you're selling or buying, Kai :-). A *very* valid comment. >> More seriously, has anyone here actually conducted a transaction >> through Ebay? Did the highest bidder actually make payment in >> a timely manner, if you were selling? >> just had a friend of mine email me to tell me he saw a mac128 go for $330 on ebay. idiots overbid themselves. ebay is a good indicator of old computer prices? i think not! From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Apr 10 07:49:37 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup Message-ID: <005601bd6480$dedf2780$6521a7cd@bothell> Scanning today''s messages gave me an idea. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I don't remember it being discussed. It's sometimes hard to follow the list with all of the quoted-replies; maybe tracking deep-threaded messages is just not my strong suit :-) Anyway, as part of my Microsoft beta testing, I belong to a small group of "elite" testers. Called ClubWin!, we have a private administrative newsgroup that requires a login name and password. Having a ClassicCmp newsgroup would provide a threaded conversation capability. We could also hang an e-mail gateway off of the news server to provide e-mail messages for those who can't or want to use a newsgroup. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Apr 10 07:35:16 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Re.: How about a weekly FS/T list? (was Sale postings to Classiccmp) Message-ID: <005501bd6480$ddf42b40$6521a7cd@bothell> Here's an idea... How about making Friday the "classifieds section" day? You know, like the local newspaper. Although classifieds appear in newspspers daily, it seems that one day has many more than the others. This would reduce the daily FS/T traffic, but still enable people to trade stuff. I see ClassicCmp as a great resource, not only for information not available elsewhere, but also for physical equipment and software which is obviously no longer made or supported by the manufacturer. I also think that those on this list should give (and be given) first crack at something that one of us has for sale. We all know eachother, have dealth with eachother previously, and for the most part, know that "the check is good." Trading should continue, but maybe it should be aggregated and done on one day. Maybe Monday's the right day...maybe Friday. I don't know. Just my $0.02. Happy Holidays to all. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 10 08:46:13 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: conman In-Reply-To: <352C7367.E86AD8AA@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980410084613.3a3f3c80@intellistar.net> OK Enrico, we've all heard about it. Now give it a rest! Joe At 07:06 AM 4/9/98 +0000, you wrote: >This is NOT a private matter. I think it is my duty to warn others that there >is a conman around. > >Regards > >enrico > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 10 08:15:44 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Burroughs B27? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980410081544.00b36dd0@pc> Ten-plus years ago, I was given an opportunity to scrap a Burroughs machine of some kind. I don't think it was still running, and it was the size of a small refrigerator. I pulled the interesting chips and disassembled the open-air hard disk unit. It was covered in a clear sheet plastic frame, sealed with snaps or Velcro, and the 14" platters spun in the air like a turntable. I still have the two platters on the wall. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 10 09:03:27 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: worldwide shipping of junk Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980410090327.00be7be0@pc> Sam Ismail wrote: >Very true. You euro-doods could make a killing on us stupid Americans if >you started auctioning off easy to find Sinclairs, Orics and Thompsons on >Ebay. The only obstacle to overcome would be shipping, but I'm sure a >little creative direct advertising towards us could overcome that concern. So what does it cost to send a standard shipping container from London to San Francisco on a slow boat? With a container a month, you could stock an esoteric used computer store, bi-directionally. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 10 10:38:39 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: conman References: <352C7367.E86AD8AA@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <352E3CFF.EC7339F0@bbtel.com> Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > This is NOT a private matter. I think it is my duty to warn others that there > is a conman around. > > Regards > > enrico > > Russ Blakeman wrote: Why does this guy post private email in the list? As someone else stated - he may have gotten screwed but he needs to channel his energy to other more creative things. We've all heard enough about it. I'm to the point I might just buy something from the guy he's accusing to see just what I get and possibly prove him wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Marty at itgonline.com Fri Apr 10 10:50:02 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Morrow Designs Pivot Message-ID: <1998Apr10.114926.1767.95140@smtp.itgonline.com> I recently acquired a Morrow Designs Pivot Model 2522 - Special, serial number 31-0001488. Both the model number and serial number are hand written on the manufacturer plate on the rear of this pc. It has dual 5 1/4 " floppy drives and 640k memory. The memory board is labelled Morrow Zenith.This is an interesting portable having a rom monitor for the built-in modem, what appears to be a built-in calculator (haven't been able to get the calculator button to do anything). Date can be changed in the monitor by pressing a button also. Boots MS-DOS fine. I read in Stan Veit's book that Zenith licensed this technology from Morrow. Does anyone have any further info on this unit or better yet a operation manual? Thanks- Marty Mintzell From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 10 11:35:55 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: eBay = Mkt Value? (was: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980409160720.3a6758dc@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > Well, "actual market value" is exactly what eBay is -- the value of an > object (i.e., what it sells for) on the open market. Ya can't get much > more open than eBay, what with it's internationalism. I would not call it market value. The prices on Ebay can be both too low and too high. Too low? Yes because the way Ebay's auction is setup, people can wait till literally the last second to send in a bid and outbid someone else by some minor amout. Too high because people often times don't even know what they're bidding on and tend to inflate its value. And anyway, an auction price could never be considered "market value". Its only based on what a small segment of the market would pay, and that amount gets inflated when people are competing against each other for an object of desire and their emotions override their logic. > As to whether prices on eBay represent what experienced, knowledgeable > collectors will pay, that's another story. Exactly my point. I'd rather base valuations on what experienced, knowledgeable collectors will pay. People who have a better idea of how many of a certain item were produced, how desirable a certain something is, the history of an item which warrants its desirability, etc. > That's a tough call. Do you sell it to someone who will use it and > appreciate it for what you paid for it, or do you put it on eBay so you can > pay the property taxes? I haven't got an answer to that one yet. I do...sell it to me :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 10 11:38:18 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4 (128k) for sale In-Reply-To: <352DCE98.EB052854@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: Enrico represents a strong case for a move towards moderation. On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > This is the man who wants to be a "moderator" > > enrico > > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Marty wrote: > > > > > Amen, Sam. Enrico, please use discretion in these issues. Personal > > > issues should stay between individuals, not aired on the list. Tell us > > > about your classic computer collection. I'm eager to hear about it. > > > > And more importantly, personal e-mail should stay between individuals that > > the e-mail is communicated to, and not made public without consent. This > > posting of private messages to the mailing list that some people have > > taken to doing is god damn ridiculous, and I swear the next time someone > > does this I will go medieval on their ass. > > > > Have some fucken integrity. > > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > -- > ======================================================== > Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK > Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) > please visit my website at: > ======================================================== > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 10 11:43:19 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Re.: How about a weekly FS/T list? (was Sale postings to Classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <005501bd6480$ddf42b40$6521a7cd@bothell> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Richard A. Cini wrote: > How about making Friday the "classifieds section" day? You know, like > the local newspaper. Although classifieds appear in newspspers daily, it > seems that one day has many more than the others. > > This would reduce the daily FS/T traffic, but still enable people to > trade stuff. I see ClassicCmp as a great resource, not only for information > not available elsewhere, but also for physical equipment and software which > is obviously no longer made or supported by the manufacturer. Even if everyone could agree on this it would last for about 1 week and then go back to status quo. I really don't mind the ads. They are not excessive, they are reaching a good market where there is a win-win (the seller gets some money and space back and the buyer gets first crack at cool stuff), and they are more on topic than the drivel that has been plaguing us for the last four weeks or so. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Apr 10 11:48:30 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) Message-ID: <001001bd64a0$934d3ee0$3167bcc1@hotze> Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data intact. Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? Feasable? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Apr 10 11:48:41 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) Message-ID: <001101bd64a0$983691e0$3167bcc1@hotze> Sorry, but this seems crazy to me. Was Ethernet invented in 1973? Was it 10MBps then? Tim D. Hotze From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 10 11:49:03 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup In-Reply-To: <005601bd6480$dedf2780$6521a7cd@bothell> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Anyway, as part of my Microsoft beta testing, I belong to a small group > of "elite" testers. Called ClubWin!, we have a private administrative > newsgroup that requires a login name and password. Having a ClassicCmp > newsgroup would provide a threaded conversation capability. We could also > hang an e-mail gateway off of the news server to provide e-mail messages for > those who can't or want to use a newsgroup. This would be excellent and I whole-heartedly back this proposal. I think its time. This will be of great help in filtering out the cacophony of crud messages (earplugs for off-topic messages). Of course, this will most likely have to overcome the resistance to change exhibited in the past, despite the fact that this would undoubtedly be the right move for this discussion group. Give us more details, Richard. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 10 12:04:17 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) In-Reply-To: <001001bd64a0$934d3ee0$3167bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: This is a Star Trek question and has absolutely no place on this discussion. When posting a message to ClassicCmp, ask yourself this question: "Does this REALLY have ANYTHING to do with old computers?" After you answer it to yourself, ask it again, but this time put extra emphasis on the word "REALLY". Thanks in advance. On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: > Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they > use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short > and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can > transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing > that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold > entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, > little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were > microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon > ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data > intact. > Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? > Feasable? > Thanks, > > Tim D. Hotze > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Apr 10 14:13:32 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: eBay = Mkt Value? (was: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Man, was I excited when I discovered ebay. I have wasted *waaaayyyyy* too much money there, in both good and bad deals. The problem is, Southern California (San Gabriel Valley, specifically) is not a nice place to be a computer collector. Everyone's feces is made of pure gold, and they all think it should go for $100 an ounce. And there's plenty of it. Thrift stores charge $50 for *each component* of an XT system, auctions are ruined by people who know nothing about what they're bidding on, and virtually nothing goes for free. So ebay was a blessing. In the beginning I got caught up in the emotion of it all and overbid atrociously. But here are some "classics" I bought, judge for yourselves whether they are good deals or no. Atari 600XL, 1010 tape drive, some carts .... $22 Atari 1200XL, a bunch of carts .... $57 Numeric keypads for Atari 8-bit .... $3 VAXStation 3100 w/mono monitor,drives,VMS 5.5 .... $51 Archive 150meg tape drive .... $25 2 Fujitsu SCSI drives (600m & 400m) .... $17 DB50 to Centronics I SCSI cable .... $2 DEC line printer .... $2 About 15 Pascal and Cobol books .... $1 IBM line printer .... $0.10 VIC 20 original manual and 2 catalogs .... $2 3 Z80 assembler books .... $5 note: I bought the VS from Gil Jasmin on this list - great to deal with And some non-classics: 32megs EDO ram .... $34 Ensoniq wavetable card .... $26 ESS 1868 Audiodrive card .... $17 Emulex print server (nice!) .... $55 Adaptec PCI UW SCSI card .... $105 I have only sold 2 things on Ebay: Packard Bell Spectria Pentium 75 (monitor built-in model) .... $280 Sun 3/50 w/19" mono monitor .... $55 I haven't been ripped-off and everything I've ordered came in a reasonable amount of time and was packaged well. Some was even sent by UPS and made it in one piece. My two sales were flawless, and I received payment 3 or 4 days after the auction ended. Aaron From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Apr 10 14:16:22 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <001101bd64a0$983691e0$3167bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: > Sorry, but this seems crazy to me. Was Ethernet invented in 1973? Was it > 10MBps then? > Tim D. Hotze > Hey Tim, there's a fantastic ethernet reference site at: http://wwwhost.ots.utexas.edu/ethernet/ethernet-home.html From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Apr 10 12:15:53 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) Message-ID: <19980410171554.1802.qmail@hotmail.com> Sam, you have to understand that if people don't feel comfortable asking questions on this list, even if they are irrelevant, they won't ask anything at all. You can't intimidate people if you want them to deal with you. In response to the original question: the isolinear chips are supposed to be holographic memory, which is in the works, and will allow terabytes of storage in several cubic centimeters, just like on the Enterprise. The nanites have an advanced version of modern nanomachinery. I would think that .5 micron hard drives are easier in this case. As for the ancient storage, I think that was magnetic. Interestingly enough, the classic trek had almost nothing in the way of computers, though there were plenty of them out there in the '60s >"REALLY". > >Thanks in advance. > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: > >> Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they >> use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short >> and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can >> transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing >> that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold >> entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, >> little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were >> microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon >> ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data >> intact. >> Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? >> Feasable? >> Thanks, >> >> Tim D. Hotze >> >> > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/08/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kroma at worldnet.att.net Fri Apr 10 12:15:03 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) Message-ID: <018901bd64a4$34639ec0$1588440c@kroma-i> > >This is a Star Trek question and has absolutely no place on this >discussion. > > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: >> microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon >> ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data >> intact. I think 700,000 years old qualifies as being over the ten year mark :-) -- Kirk From Marty at itgonline.com Fri Apr 10 12:26:00 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Re.: How about a weekly FS/T list? (was Sale postings Message-ID: <1998Apr10.132538.1767.95180@smtp.itgonline.com> I love the ads, anytime. I don't care how classic equipment is offered up just as long as it is being made available. I don't have any problem with commercialism either. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re.: How about a weekly FS/T list? (was Sale postings to Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 4/10/98 12:50 PM On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Richard A. Cini wrote: > How about making Friday the "classifieds section" day? You know, like > the local newspaper. Although classifieds appear in newspspers daily, it > seems that one day has many more than the others. > > This would reduce the daily FS/T traffic, but still enable people to > trade stuff. I see ClassicCmp as a great resource, not only for information > not available elsewhere, but also for physical equipment and software which > is obviously no longer made or supported by the manufacturer. Even if everyone could agree on this it would last for about 1 week and then go back to status quo. I really don't mind the ads. They are not excessive, they are reaching a good market where there is a win-win (the seller gets some money and space back and the buyer gets first crack at cool stuff), and they are more on topic than the drivel that has been plaguing us for the last four weeks or so. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Apr10.125015.1767.36399; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:50:16 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id JAA12125; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:43:37 -0700 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA63678 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:43:28 -0700 Received: from shell.wco.com (root@shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id JAA26839 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:43:26 -0700 Received: from shell (dastar@shell [199.4.94.16]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id JAA14087 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Re.: How about a weekly FS/T list? (was Sale postings to Classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <005501bd6480$ddf42b40$6521a7cd@bothell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers X-Sender: dastar@shell X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From cad at gamewood.net Fri Apr 10 12:37:34 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) References: <018901bd64a4$34639ec0$1588440c@kroma-i> Message-ID: <352E58DE.96E@gamewood.net> kroma wrote: > > > > >This is a Star Trek question and has absolutely no place on this > >discussion. > > > > > > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: > > >> microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon > >> ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the > data > >> intact. > > I think 700,000 years old qualifies as being over the ten year mark :-) > > -- Kirk And it just might start some interesting information about things that have been tried in the past and dropped for whatever reason. Like 'mechanical delay lines' (water tube and/or mercury tube). Chuck From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri Apr 10 11:29:07 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: conman In-Reply-To: <352E3CFF.EC7339F0@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <199804101714.MAA19539@onyx.southwind.net> I dunno. I have been trying to filter this guy out, but my pissy mail client refuses to obey the filter rules settings. Grrrrrrrr. >:^() Jeff > Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:38:39 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Russ Blakeman > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: conman > Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > > > This is NOT a private matter. I think it is my duty to warn others that there > > is a conman around. > > > > Regards > > > > enrico > > > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Why does this guy post private email in the list? As someone else stated - he may have > gotten screwed but he needs to channel his energy to other more creative things. We've all > heard enough about it. I'm to the point I might just buy something from the guy he's > accusing to see just what I get and possibly prove him wrong. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ # 1714857 > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Apr 10 12:53:05 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: TI 99/4a Message-ID: <19980410175306.8504.qmail@hotmail.com> I am pretty sure that the TI itself works. I plugged in a commodore 5-pin monitor cable. The video pinouts differ, I guess, but the audio worked. It beeped when I turned it on, and booped whenever I pressed a key. I checked the modulator box cable, and it's fine. Also, the box is getting power. Still, the little led on it does not light up, and ISDN (It Still Does Nothing). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Fri Apr 10 13:00:13 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: GRiD 1537e in the UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's a fellow in the UK who wants to sell his GRiD 1537e, but only to somebody in the UK. I think it's missing the manual and power supply, but I can give specs and pin-outs to anybody that would like to get it. This laptop is not yet a classic, but it's a pretty cool TEMPEST-ized magnesium-cased 17-lb 386-16 laptop used mostly by the military (and the price is right). << I AM IN THE UK AND WOULD GET #35 FOR IT HERE RJJONES001@COMPUSERVE.COM >> -- Doug From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Apr 10 13:02:50 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) Message-ID: <002d01bd64ab$0363cfa0$3167bcc1@hotze> Well, it really depends. After asking my self, I said "No." Then, after contemplating it, and asking again, I have to say "Yes." First of all, it deals with the preservation of data, something that collecters must be knowledgable about, especially if they have origional/interesting software. -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) > >This is a Star Trek question and has absolutely no place on this >discussion. > >When posting a message to ClassicCmp, ask yourself this question: "Does >this REALLY have ANYTHING to do with old computers?" After you answer it >to yourself, ask it again, but this time put extra emphasis on the word >"REALLY". > >Thanks in advance. > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: > >> Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they >> use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short >> and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can >> transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing >> that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold >> entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, >> little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were >> microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon >> ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data >> intact. >> Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? >> Feasable? >> Thanks, >> >> Tim D. Hotze >> >> > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/08/98] > From van at wired.com Fri Apr 10 13:14:44 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) In-Reply-To: <001001bd64a0$934d3ee0$3167bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: Star Trek is a television show. Do you really think that this question is appropriate? Two words... alt.startrek van >Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they >use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short >and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can >transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing >that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold >entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, >little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were >microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon >ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data >intact. > Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? >Feasable? > Thanks, > >Tim D. Hotze ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From maynard at jmg.com Fri Apr 10 14:49:18 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <001101bd64a0$983691e0$3167bcc1@hotze> (photze@batelco.com.bh) References: <001101bd64a0$983691e0$3167bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <199804101949.PAA01426@mr-gateway.internal.net> I seem to remember early Ethernet interface VAX quad cards being around 1.5Mbps... not sure if it was think ether, vampire tap stuff... This would have been before ethernet was turned into a 'standard.' One guy I know has one of these hanging from his wall along with some physical core for a PDP 11/44. I was too young to have used to implemented this stuff, so I can't claim to have actually _used_ such hardware. --jmg > Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:48:41 +0300 > From: "Hotze" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) > > Sorry, but this seems crazy to me. Was Ethernet invented in 1973? Was it > 10MBps then? > Tim D. Hotze > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Apr 10 14:15:58 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <001101bd64a0$983691e0$3167bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Apr 10, 98 07:48:41 pm Message-ID: <9804101815.AA07536@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 432 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980410/6c260717/attachment.ksh From peacock at simconv.com Fri Apr 10 13:44:01 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E871@mail.simconv.com> > I seem to remember early Ethernet interface VAX quad cards > being around 1.5Mbps... not sure if it was think ether, vampire > tap stuff... This would have been before ethernet was turned > into a 'standard.' One guy I know has one of these hanging That is a DMC-11. It was an early networking card before Ethernet. It was point to point, 4 wire coax, synchronous serial at something around 1.5Mbps. The DMC-11 had an onboard bit slice processor (might have been a Signetics 8X305, not sure) to handle the packet assembly/disassembly. BTW the KMC-11 was a generic DMC-11 that was user programmable, if you wanted to roll your own protocols. I used a pair of DMC-11s in 1977 to network two PDP-11/34s with an early version of DECnet. I don't recall that DEC had any multi-drop type network interface at that time, except maybe for X.25 PADs. From rexstout at uswest.net Fri Apr 10 13:36:36 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) In-Reply-To: <001001bd64a0$934d3ee0$3167bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: >Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they >use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short >and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can >transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing >that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold >entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, >little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were >microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon >ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data >intact. > Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? >Feasable? A very interesting question, which being a Star Trek fan I have asked myself several times. Just as a stupid guess, the technology for such holographic memory probably exists right now, but it has either not been developed yet, or it's sitting in a bunker at Area 51(or maybe IBM's labs? Or does IBM own Area 51?!)... A while back I remember reading a little blurb about IBM's blue lasers, and something about holographic memory, along with a picture of a nice laser lab with some blue lights flying around(lasers are MUCH more fun when it's foggy), but I don't know anything after that. I suppose I should probably go searching for info... I don't have my TNG Tech Manual around, so I can't give you what the storage capacity is, but it is far past GB or TB... In fact, I'm sure they made up the term... Wouldn't you agree that it would be tiring to say that it held 1,000,000,000,000,000,000TB everytime someone asked? As for previous attempts, I haven't heard of any. Although there are several theories flying around that some of the sci-fi people(Gene Rodenberry being one example) had inside contacts, and that perhaps many sci-fi TV shows/movies are to get the general public used to the idea of ET's, in preperation for the fact that they ARE in fact here right now... And that much of the stuff in these shows are based on fact(as buried as it might be). Not to mention that Star Trek has been very close to reality as far as physics... Among the first popular discussions about wormholes, black holes and space travel... Well, we can dream, can't we? -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From maynard at jmg.com Fri Apr 10 15:14:25 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:16 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:04:17 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <199804102014.QAA01484@mr-gateway.internal.net> [posted to the list as followup to the original] Please stop trying to bully people around on the list, Sam. It's been going fine since the last flamefest without any jostling for position and authority, and this is the way it ought to continue (IMHO). While a message like this does not fit into the classiccmp charter, Tim Hotze has been a long standing member here and doesn't seem to be attempting to divert the charter to classic computers _and_ Star Trek by posting an off topic question every now and then. This is just _not_ worth making a stink over. For the last few days you've been acting like you run the show again. Please stop. Please treat the list members like the adults they are, especially long standing members like Tim. Even Enrico, who I admit has annoyed me as well, deserves better treatment. You have the option to delete and filter... use it (see man procmail). --jmg > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Re: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) > > This is a Star Trek question and has absolutely no place on this > discussion. > > When posting a message to ClassicCmp, ask yourself this question: "Does > this REALLY have ANYTHING to do with old computers?" After you answer it > to yourself, ask it again, but this time put extra emphasis on the word > "REALLY". > > Thanks in advance. > > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: > > > Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they > > use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short > > and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can [snip] From maynard at jmg.com Fri Apr 10 15:37:11 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E871@mail.simconv.com> (message from Jack Peacock on Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:44:01 -0700) References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E871@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <199804102037.QAA01508@mr-gateway.internal.net> HA! Mention a vauge memory on the list and _someone_ out there is bound to know the exact part you're refering to. My typos notwithstanding, does anyone know if old BSD-2.x varients, which ran on the PDP-11, supported this board? Was TCP/IP supported along with DECNet? I find it tough to believe that a BSD kernel with networking fit into the 64K memory segments of the PDP11... The copy of Venix I ran on my 11/23 didn't support networking and the kernel most _definately_ fit into only one segment. --jmg > From: Jack Peacock > Subject: RE: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) > > > I seem to remember early Ethernet interface VAX quad cards > > being around 1.5Mbps... not sure if it was think ether, vampire > > tap stuff... This would have been before ethernet was turned > > into a 'standard.' One guy I know has one of these hanging > > That is a DMC-11. It was an early networking card before Ethernet. It > was point to point, 4 wire coax, synchronous serial at something around > 1.5Mbps. The DMC-11 had an onboard bit slice processor (might have been > a Signetics 8X305, not sure) to handle the packet assembly/disassembly. > BTW the KMC-11 was a generic DMC-11 that was user programmable, if you > wanted to roll your own protocols. I used a pair of DMC-11s in 1977 to > network two PDP-11/34s with an early version of DECnet. I don't recall > that DEC had any multi-drop type network interface at that time, except > maybe for X.25 PADs. > From Marty at itgonline.com Fri Apr 10 14:46:01 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) Message-ID: <1998Apr10.154445.1767.95234@smtp.itgonline.com> Not to beat a dead horse, but I believe Tim's question was relevant. I read about optical storage using holography well over ten years ago but am unaware of its present use or status. This may not strictly qualify as classic computer subject matter but shouldn't we give a 12 year-old a break? Tim should be commended and encouraged for his interest in computer science and preservation, not hen-pecked over the fact that he related his question to a Star Trak episode. Keep asking questions Tim and don't let anybody intimidate you into silence. Marty Mintzell ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 4/10/98 2:09 PM Star Trek is a television show. Do you really think that this question is appropriate? Two words... alt.startrek van >Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they >use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short >and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can >transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing >that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold >entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, >little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were >microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon >ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data >intact. > Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? >Feasable? > Thanks, > >Tim D. Hotze ......................................................................... @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ......................................................................... for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Apr10.140909.1767.36428; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:09:15 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id LAA18051; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:03:44 -0700 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id LAA63546 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:03:35 -0700 Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id LAA04060 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:03:34 -0700 Received: from [206.221.206.170] (wrs.wired.com [206.221.206.170]) by wired.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15918 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:01:03 -0700 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:14:44 -0700 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Van Burnham To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) In-Reply-To: <001001bd64a0$934d3ee0$3167bcc1@hotze> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: van@pophost.wired.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 10 15:51:04 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) In-Reply-To: <19980410171554.1802.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Sam, you have to understand that if people don't feel comfortable > asking questions on this list, even if they are irrelevant, they > won't ask anything at all. You can't intimidate people if you want > them to deal with you. How many times must this argument be re-hashed? You didn't join this list to discuss Star Trek, you joined it to discuss CLASSIC (ie. OLD, ANTIQUE, VINTAGE, OBSOLETE) computers. Hence the name, ClassicCmp. Anybody is free (and I encourage them) to ask ANY question they want that is somewhere in the realm of CLASSIC computers. There are hundreds of Star Trek discussion groups. Just because one is too lazy to go find them is no excuse. Not only did you fail to realize this, but you went ahead and answered his question anyway, and from the looks of my inbox, a bunch of irrelevant replies will follow. Thanks a lot, Max. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 10 13:56:15 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <001101bd64a0$983691e0$3167bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Apr 10, 98 07:48:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980410/8ef4fabc/attachment.ksh From cad at gamewood.net Fri Apr 10 16:06:43 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) References: Message-ID: <352E89E3.217E@gamewood.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > Sam, you have to understand that if people don't feel comfortable > > asking questions on this list, even if they are irrelevant, they > > won't ask anything at all. You can't intimidate people if you want > > them to deal with you. > > How many times must this argument be re-hashed? You didn't join this list > to discuss Star Trek, you joined it to discuss CLASSIC (ie. OLD, ANTIQUE, > VINTAGE, OBSOLETE) computers. Well Sam, that's EXACTLY what the question was about. True it wasn't 'Intel' chips, or an 'Atari (whatever)' but it was about computer storage. So --- chill out a bit. Take a vacation, whatever. Just stop trying to justify some blathering on your part. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 10 13:52:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: E & L MMD1 8080 trainer board In-Reply-To: <000401bd646f$7b128280$6d711d80@groberts.mitre.org> from "Glenn Roberts" at Apr 10, 98 06:57:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980410/0893e932/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 10 16:16:04 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) In-Reply-To: <199804102014.QAA01484@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: This is hopefully the last public post I'll (have to) make about this tired topic. I just wish people would have the intelligence to realize the error of insisting on posting non-relevant material to this discussion, but it just seems like a lost cause. On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > Please stop trying to bully people around on the list, Sam. First of all, next time post this message privately where it belongs. This also goes for any replies to this message (please?) > It's been going fine since the last flamefest without any jostling > for position and authority, and this is the way it ought to > continue (IMHO). While a message like this does not fit into the > classiccmp charter, Tim Hotze has been a long standing member here > and doesn't seem to be attempting to divert the charter to classic > computers _and_ Star Trek by posting an off topic question every > now and then. This is just _not_ worth making a stink over. Maybe he doesn't "seem" to be to you, but the fact is, he is. And he did. All I will say is, please stick to the topic. > For the last few days you've been acting like you run the show > again. Please stop. Please treat the list members like the > adults they are, especially long standing members like Tim. Even > Enrico, who I admit has annoyed me as well, deserves better > treatment. You have the option to delete and filter... use it > (see man procmail). If wanting to preserve this list for what it is rather than have it descend into a murky pool of nonsense that has nothing to do with what we joined it for, then yeah, I'm guilty of that. As for treating people like adults, Tim is 12. Enough said about that. Basically though, if people who want to be a part of this list will have the courtesy, as adults, to take care that this discussion stays within its intended bounds, their courtesy will be returned in kind. That's all. Very simple. Lastly, I'll not be singled out as the only one objecting to off-topic messages. Granted I'm the most vocal about it, but there have been at least 3 others expressing the same opinion in the open, and I'm sure about ten times that many harboring their opinions to themselves. If there is this much turmoil over the issue, then it obviously is a real concern. I don't get excitement from conjuring problems out of thin air just so I can have fun bitching about them. Usually, the discussion goes well. Everyone (including me) posts off-topic message once in a while. And this is fine. However, there is a small minority of individuals who do it constantly (eg. more than half their messages have nothing to do with Classic Computers). Its this minority that ruins it for the rest of us. That's extremely rude and inconsiderate, and it will only serve to undermine the integrity of this discussion group. Of course now I can expect the obligatory rash of flames, but you know I'm right. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 10 17:26:53 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Re.: How about a weekly FS/T list? (was Sale postings to Classiccmp) References: Message-ID: <352E9CAC.DBB6EA77@bbtel.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > How about making Friday the "classifieds section" day? You know, like > Even if everyone could agree on this it would last for about 1 week and > then go back to status quo. I really don't mind the ads. They are not > excessive, they are reaching a good market where there is a win-win (the > seller gets some money and space back and the buyer gets first crack at > cool stuff), and they are more on topic than the drivel that has been > plaguing us for the last four weeks or so. You are a very smart person Sam. You might mention that the people (myself included) selling/trading this stuff are also collectors or users of one type or other - list people. It's not like the newsgroup stuff that's mass generated and sent to 50 groups at a time whether it applies or not. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 10 16:40:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) Message-ID: <199804102140.AA10780@world.std.com> < I seem to remember early Ethernet interface VAX quad cards < being around 1.5Mbps... not sure if it was think ether, vampire < tap stuff... This would have been before ethernet was turned < into a 'standard.' One guy I know has one of these hanging < from his wall along with some physical core for a PDP 11/44. I < was too young to have used to implemented this stuff, so I < can't claim to have actually _used_ such hardware. 802.. eithernet was always 10mbit/s. The 1.5mhz stuff was arcnet. They are similar in that they are both bus topology using CSMA/CD arbitration. Eithernet was a colaboration of Digital Eguipment corp, Intel and Xerox and was in the '70s called DIX eithernet. Allison From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Apr 10 17:37:27 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <199804101447.QAA05298@basement.replay.com> Message-ID: <352E9F22.CFDD6F8A@ndirect.co.uk> Without comment enrico Anonymous wrote: > > Are you a fucking idiot, Limey? Cut the damn crying on the mailing list or you might just open a message one day and have your whole machine become instantly erased...Not a threat, a promise. -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From maynard at jmg.com Fri Apr 10 18:29:22 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: [OFF TOPIC?] Fixed Freq Monitor Questions In-Reply-To: <199803230555.AAA05740@mr-gateway.internal.net> (maynard@jmg.com) References: <199803230555.AAA05740@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: <199804102329.TAA01717@mr-gateway.internal.net> BTW: no one responded to this message, so I guess no one knew the answer. I received a responce to a USENET post about this and thought there might be some interest in the group. The VGA spec supports 'doublescan' mode for low resolution compatability with CGA apps. This essentially forces the card to draw each horizontal line twice, thus doubling the refresh rate (or your vertical resolution in half at the same refresh rate) at any arbitrary horizontal scan rate. Well, some chipsets (like the 968, Matrox Millenium, and most ATI chipsets), allow for tripplescanning which does exactly what one would expect... it scans each horizontal line three times before skipping down to the next line, thus allowing one to drop down to a third of the vertical resolution at the same refresh rate (same horizontal rate always, of course). OK. XFree86 and SVGAlib don't support tripplescan mode, but they do support doublescan mode because it's part of the VGA spec. Tripplescan is vendor specific, and so thus is enabled in different ways for each chipset. I'm attempting to hack svgalib to support tripplescan for the S3/968... waiting for the 968 docs to arrive so I can find the register and register values to set for my adapter. The rest seems fairly easy, just hack in parsing for 'tripplescan' on the modeline and such. Why does this matter to you? Well, if you have an Hitachi HM-4119, HP1097C, or somesuch fixed freq monitor, getting it to work under Linux is pretty easy once you know the trick. Why buy a $1500 monitor when you've got a perfectly fine one sitting on your VaxStation 3100? Well, for the purposes of this list, why not just use the 3100 as the xterm... but that defeats the purpose of this message. ;-) --jmg [bit 'o original] ------------------- OK, This is mildly on topic. My monitor is an HP 1097C, making it at least 10 years old. However, I am using it with a modern PC, so that's where the 'on topic' issue gets a little iffy. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who can answer this question. A pointer to a FAQ would be most welcome. From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 10 18:00:25 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <199804101447.QAA05298@basement.replay.com> <352E9F22.CFDD6F8A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <352EA489.B3C8050@bbtel.com> Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > Without comment > > enrico > > Anonymous wrote: > > Why does he do this? The guy is obviously on a streak of self-destruction over a couple of stinking Britsh pounds. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Apr 10 17:00:16 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Sorry, but this seems crazy to me. Was Ethernet invented in 1973? Was it > > 10MBps then? > > I somehow doubt it! From peacock at simconv.com Fri Apr 10 17:12:02 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E874@mail.simconv.com> > From: allisonp@world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] > > 802.. eithernet was always 10mbit/s. The 1.5mhz stuff was > arcnet. They > are similar in that they are both bus topology using CSMA/CD > arbitration. > Not quite. Arcnet was not a CSMA/CD but token passing, more in common with Token Ring rather than Ethernet. Arcnet used a bus, but a token was passed along to each node and that node sent a packet only when it got the token. Whenever a new node came online the rest of the nodes would reconfigure and start the token over again. Collisions only occured when new nodes came on line the first time. IIRC it was Datapoint that first came up with Arcnet for their multi-user terminals. For a small number of static nodes the Arcnet throughput was actually quite good. Whereas ethernet is probabilistic for access, token passing is deterministic in that you are guaranteed a slice of bandwidth to every node. At a minimum you always had roughly 1/n of available bandwidth, where n was the number of nodes. Arcnet degraded in a linear fashion as nodes were added, but Ethernet degradation can approach geometric rates, as anyone knows when they see that collision light on the UTP hub go on solid. Also, Arcnet was 2.5Mbps. The original version used coax (not Ethernet thinwire! I think it was RG-92?) into hubs, later versions went to twisted pair. There was a 20Mbps follow-up from SMC (the primary chip maker for Arcnet) but it never caught on. Arcnet was a common networking standard for S-100 systems in the early to mid 80s, using MP/M and CP/NET from Digital Research. I think it was one of the first network transports supported by NetWare too. Jack Peacock From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Apr 10 17:04:48 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Asshole Message-ID: <19496c14.352e9782@aol.com> who bloody cares?! people, deal with your own problems; I dont want to hear about them on the list. I have enough to deal with myself! david, back to deleting stupid messages In a message dated 98-04-10 17:47:45 EDT, you write: << Without comment enrico Anonymous wrote: > > Are you a fucking idiot, Limey? Cut the damn crying on the mailing list or you might just open a message one day and have your whole machine become instantly erased...Not a threat, a promise. -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From aaron at wfi-inc.com Fri Apr 10 19:16:32 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Asshole In-Reply-To: <352EA489.B3C8050@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Why does he do this? The guy is obviously on a streak of self-destruction over a couple of stinking Britsh pounds. I say we start a relief fund and each chip in a quarter. Maybe that will finally put an end to this absurd and embarrassing public tantrum. Please post your quarters to: Enrico Tedeschi c/o "The Enrico Tedeschi Rip-Off Relief Fund" 54 Easthill Drive Brighton BN41 2FD UK From maynard at jmg.com Fri Apr 10 19:05:41 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <199804102140.AA10899@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199804102140.AA10899@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199804110005.UAA01805@mr-gateway.internal.net> Allison, this was private email, but I figure this may be actually of interest to the group. There's nothing here personal, or insulting anyway... OK. So Allison says the HEX bus 11/44 ran a BSD variant with networking. I would guess a Q-BUS CPU with memory management like the 11/23 and 11/73 line should run this BSD variant as well... what I want to know is, did the kernel fit into 64K in one segment, or did they spread the kernel across segment bounderies? If so, how? I mean, I could see overlays (in the kernel... blech!), but I don't remember the 11 supporting long long jumps... and address value was 16 bits, period. Still, I was never great at 11 assembly. Could someone here give a good detailed account of PDP-11 segment mapping support? Could my stack and register values be retained and follow while moving from segment to segment? And how the hell did you tell the memory manager you wanted to pop to another segment, anyway? The curious want to know.... --jmg > Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:40:32 -0400 > From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > To: maynard@jmg.com > Subject: Re: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) > > > < I find it tough to believe that a BSD kernel with networking > < fit into the 64K memory segments of the PDP11... The copy of > < Venix I ran on my 11/23 didn't support networking and the > < kernel most _definately_ fit into only one segment. > > Venix didn't, but IP and friends was developed on PDP11s! It definately > fit and was run on 11/44s and the like so it would fit on an 11/23. That's > not to say there wasn't whole lto a swapping goin on. > > Allison > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 10 15:56:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E871@mail.simconv.com> from "Jack Peacock" at Apr 10, 98 11:44:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1567 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980410/06538cdf/attachment.ksh From POLARIS at VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU Fri Apr 10 19:23:57 1998 From: POLARIS at VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU (POLARIS@VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Subscribe Message-ID: <01IVPPJ31A3C006V5O@VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU> Hello - could you add me to the list? Thanks, Dave Forsyth From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Fri Apr 10 19:34:12 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok, so I've got a Northstar Horizon with an MDS-AD3 controller and a Disk Jockey 8" drive controller. At this point, I've got a copy of NDOS on 5 1/4" diskette so I just want to get the thing to boot NDOS but I want to feel confident that I've got a good drive/controller before risk the only copy of NDOS I have. The behavior is this. When I hook the drive up to the controller and power the box on, the light stays on and the disk spins and spins forever but the head never loads. I've tried a couple different drives so it's not the drive. Out of curiosity I flipped over the drive cable to make sure I didn't have it on backwards and the light doesn't come on on the drive and the drive doesn't spin in that case. What's the deal? I've got the drive jumpered to DS1. I have a suspicion I'm being extremely ignorant about something here. What would cause the described behavior? Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From peacock at simconv.com Fri Apr 10 18:51:47 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E878@mail.simconv.com> > From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > > Actually, it's all discrete TTL chips (74S181 ALUs, 74161's for the > program counter, etc). The KMC11 and DMR11 (a later version That's right 'ls181, a crude bit slice ALU. I remember there was a way to download microcode directly, the RSX driver supported it. None of those cool 2900 series slices were around yet, maybe even the 8x305 was still on the drawing board. I still have the AMD 2901 design book, heavy going but it tells you everything you ever want to know about building a CPU from scratch. I don't suppose anyone has some kind of system built from 2901 bit slices? Roll your own microcoded instruction sets? Jack Peacock From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Fri Apr 10 19:46:10 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The behavior is this. When I hook the drive up to the controller and > power the box on, the light stays on and the disk spins and spins forever > but the head never loads. I've tried a couple different drives so it's > not the drive. Out of curiosity I flipped over the drive cable to make > sure I didn't have it on backwards and the light doesn't come on on the > drive and the drive doesn't spin in that case. Oh I get it. The deal is that the Northstar controller isn't being jumped to on power on like it's supposed to and so it's going to sit turned off...when I flip the cable over the right way it sits, when I flip it the wrong way it turns on. Aha. So the POJ header on the cpu card is wired up maybe to jump to the Thinkertoys board? I don't seem to have a manual for the CPU card though I do for the general system, NDOS, NBASIC etc. Can someone tell me what that POJ jumpered should be wired as to jump to our friend the Northstar Disk controller? I think the address is E800 or E900? Thanks in advance... Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: Sometimes I ask questions while I'm working on answering them myself so that, in case I can't answer them myself, I still learn something and also don't waste time. Plus, alot of times when I think I know the answer, I find I don't know the ENTIRE answer...just a specific subset. From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 10 18:39:58 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 10, 98 02:16:04 pm Message-ID: <199804102340.TAA26158@armigeron.com> Sam Ismail: > How many times must this argument be re-hashed? You didn't join this list > to discuss Star Trek, you joined it to discuss CLASSIC (ie. OLD, ANTIQUE, > VINTAGE, OBSOLETE) computers. Hence the name, ClassicCmp. Anybody is > free (and I encourage them) to ask ANY question they want that is > somewhere in the realm of CLASSIC computers. There are hundreds of Star > Trek discussion groups. Just because one is too lazy to go find them is > no excuse. The episodes in question were over 10 years old, and it was a computer related question. So in very loose interpretation of the rules, I would let it slide by. But even taking a rather strict interpretation, would discussions about fictional computers (over 10 years) be allowed? Or is this list solely about collecting old computers? If it is, then I say throw out Toney Duell, since almost half his posts are about electronics and peripherals than COMPUTERS (to pick a silly example). Kick him off I say! Kick him off! Also, in my experience, most everthing in this industry is pretty much 10 years old or older. Virtual memory? Intelligent I/O? Plug and Play? Hot swappable components? The next Microsoft innovation? So far, everything on that list has been done by the early 70s, and frankly, there isn't much being developed today that hasn't been done before in one way or another. J. Maynard Gelinas: > It's been going fine since the last flamefest without any jostling > for position and authority, and this is the way it ought to > continue (IMHO). While a message like this does not fit into the > classiccmp charter, Tim Hotze has been a long standing member here > and doesn't seem to be attempting to divert the charter to classic > computers _and_ Star Trek by posting an off topic question every > now and then. This is just _not_ worth making a stink over. Sam Ismail: > Maybe he doesn't "seem" to be to you, but the fact is, he is. And he did. > All I will say is, please stick to the topic. What exactly IS the topic of this list? I'm sure that if I were to start talking about software (older than 10 years of course) you might get on my case about it being off topic. Maybe it'd be best for you to post what topics you consider ON-TOPIC. J. Maynard Gelinas: > For the last few days you've been acting like you run the show > again. Please stop. Please treat the list members like the > adults they are, especially long standing members like Tim. Even > Enrico, who I admit has annoyed me as well, deserves better > treatment. You have the option to delete and filter... use it > (see man procmail). Sam Ismail: > As for treating people like > adults, Tim is 12. Enough said about that. And he comes across as being more polite than you. He did mark the message as potentially being off topic (check the subject line). But your comment is totally out of line. Until told otherwise, I had no idea that Tim was 12. How can you be sure that I'm not 13 myself? Just because I may be younger than 18 means I don't get treated as an adult? Must the people here who want to be treated as adults need to present a valid driver's licence or other form valid ID? And how is Tim supposed to learn when the adults around him are discouraging. Geeze, given some of the adults around here, let more kids on; they seem more reasonable. > Basically though, if people > who want to be a part of this list will have the courtesy, as adults, to > take care that this discussion stays within its intended bounds, their > courtesy will be returned in kind. That's all. Very simple. But that "intended bounds" is rather open ended I'm afraid. For instance, while the Newton isn't (according to the definition used on this list) a Classic Computer, a device *like it* was used (may have been used) on the original Star Trek series. Every so often, a petty officer would hand Kirk a slate and pen like object and he would sign off on something, but you never saw paper on it. Did the producers of the show conceive of the Newton 30 years ago? Who knows? They saw the actions on a regular military style ship and may have "futuristically" made improvements to certain everyday tasks (yes, the computers in the original series looked alot like contemporary computers, but they understood voice commands, something IBM is currently investing a lot of money into right now) (also, the original Star Trek bridge layout was studied by the Navy oddly enough. But enough of Trek Trivia). And even the Newton isn't new, as the idea is definitely tracable back to the late 60s/early 70s with Alan Kay and his Dynabook; a classical computer, even if a fictional one. -spc (Would like to see Sam control the topics on alt.folklore.computers, where topic drift is a way of life 8-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 10 18:15:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E878@mail.simconv.com> from "Jack Peacock" at Apr 10, 98 04:51:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2133 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980411/1c497afd/attachment.ksh From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 10 19:09:38 1998 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: conman References: <3.0.1.16.19980410084613.3a3f3c80@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <352EB4C2.5EDA@ix.netcom.com> Agreed. I'm sick and tired of Enrico's whining! Joe wrote: > > OK Enrico, we've all heard about it. Now give it a rest! > > Joe > > At 07:06 AM 4/9/98 +0000, you wrote: > >This is NOT a private matter. I think it is my duty to warn others that there > >is a conman around. > > > >Regards > > > >enrico > > From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 10 19:13:43 1998 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Asshole References: Message-ID: <352EB5B7.658D@ix.netcom.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Why does he do this? The guy is obviously on a streak of self-destruction over a couple of stinking Britsh pounds. > > > > I say we start a relief fund and each chip in a quarter. Maybe that will > finally put an end to this absurd and embarrassing public tantrum. > > Please post your quarters to: > > Enrico Tedeschi > c/o "The Enrico Tedeschi Rip-Off Relief Fund" > 54 Easthill Drive > Brighton BN41 2FD UK I'd happily donate 10 times that amount to get that asshole off the list. We are supposed to be discussing computers. From ecloud at bigfoot.com Fri Apr 10 19:14:36 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s References: <000c01bd6415$e4a2b080$73010bce@fauradon> Message-ID: <352EB5EC.B1D2C41E@bigfoot.com> Francois wrote: > If you want it bad enough everything is possible. > I do belive it is our duty to perform these tasks. An x1541 cable allows you > to connect a commodore disk drive to a PC why not make it the other way > around and use the PC as a disk drive "server" for the C64, VIC20 and C128? Awfully ironic though isn't it? :-) > stuff can be built for a few $. I think Jameco still sells prototype boards > for the ISA bus. I've seen them recently still at local electronics stores as well. ISA is so much easier to build custom boards for than PCI. > PS: I know this comes up regularly but... I'm changing ISPs What is the best > way to deal with the address change? Get an account at a "lifetime email" service, like Bigfoot or Four11. When you move, you just redirect it. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From yowza at yowza.com Fri Apr 10 19:27:22 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E878@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Jack Peacock wrote: > building a CPU from scratch. I don't suppose anyone has some kind of > system built from 2901 bit slices? Roll your own microcoded instruction > sets? As a project in a computer architecture class, I built a virtual PDP-8 from virtual 2901's. I wrote a 2901 simulator, microcode assembler, and the the PDP-8 microcode itself. (I've got it somewhere; I'll stick it on a web page if I ever find it.) -- Doug From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Apr 10 19:33:37 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980410101722.0c77f7d8@ricochet.net> At 08:18 PM 4/9/98 -0400, you wrote: >>around and use the PC as a disk drive "server" for the C64, VIC20 and C128? >>And that is only one thought. > >I believe that's already been done. I know it's been done for 8-bit Atari's. (I've seen a 1200xl with built-in hard-drive, using a pentium with big HD and CD as a peripheral...) (Talk to Bob Wooley of the San Leandro Computer Club, San Leandro, CA.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Apr 10 19:34:02 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: eBay = Mkt Value? (was: my objection to recent postings) Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980410115813.37872f46@ricochet.net> At 09:35 AM 4/10/98 -0700, you wrote: >> As to whether prices on eBay represent what experienced, knowledgeable >> collectors will pay, that's another story. > >Exactly my point. I'd rather base valuations on what experienced, >knowledgeable collectors will pay. People who have a better idea of how My point too. There's a big difference in "market value" and "collector value". (Don't believe me, buy a "collectible" plate sometime, or coins from a TV shopping channel.) Market value is what the average idiot will pay, at auction or elsewhere. Collector value is what an informed collector will pay, based on rarity, significance, etc. I've got books on disney, hot wheels/corgi/dinky/matchbox/etc., glassware, collectible board games, and so on (used to be in the business, kinda) and I am often amazed at what things sell for, at auction, at antique shows, in stores, as well as at garage sales, flea markets, and so on. Heck, Hake's is one of the biggest value setters in the US of pricing on Disney, politicals, advertising, and so on stuff, but still, a lot of collectors (me included) think their prices are inflated. Market value versus collector value. >> That's a tough call. Do you sell it to someone who will use it and >> appreciate it for what you paid for it, or do you put it on eBay so you can >> pay the property taxes? I haven't got an answer to that one yet. > >I do...sell it to me :) Ah, but... Say I'm a newbie to the group (and don't take this personally!), how do I know that if I sell you my //c LCD screen for $20, I won't see it listed on eBay next week with a starting bid of $400? And even though I know you wouldn't do that, I still not that easy. As an example, I've got two SE/30 motherboards, brand new, in the Apple Service boxes. I know some people here expressed interest in them, so I should probably offer them here, cheaply. The problem is, they're actually part of the Mac stuff allocated to my girlfriend's school. If I sold them on eBay, I might get enough to buy a complete, working IIci system to put into the classroom for the kids to use. What do I do? And even if they weren't going to the school, I wasn't able to take my dad and niece to Disneyland this year because I can't afford it. If I sold them on eBay, that would pay for part of a cheap trip to Dland. Like I said, tough call. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Apr 10 19:34:06 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980410120528.37871fa6@ricochet.net> At 08:49 AM 4/10/98 -0400, you wrote: > Scanning today''s messages gave me an idea. I don't know if this has >been discussed before, but I don't remember it being discussed. It has. It comes up every now and then on every mailing list. What usually happens is that those who want a newsgroup go off a create a newsgroup, and the ones who can't access or don't like newsgroups stick to the e-mail list, and the real die-hards follow both, cross-posting stuff all the time. > ClubWin! Charter Member (6) ^ I am not a number, I am a free man! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From wpe at interserv.com Fri Apr 10 20:29:05 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Re.: How about a weekly FS/T list? (was Sale postings to Classiccmp) References: <352E9CAC.DBB6EA77@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <352EC75F.B66A2211@interserv.com> I have no problem with the ads either. I feel that the type of FS/T ads I've seen, are perfectly appropriate.. Nobody asked, just my opinion... Will Russ Blakeman wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > > > > How about making Friday the "classifieds section" day? You know, like > > > Even if everyone could agree on this it would last for about 1 week and > > then go back to status quo. I really don't mind the ads. They are not > > excessive, they are reaching a good market where there is a win-win (the > > seller gets some money and space back and the buyer gets first crack at > > cool stuff), and they are more on topic than the drivel that has been > > plaguing us for the last four weeks or so. > > You are a very smart person Sam. You might mention that the people (myself > included) selling/trading this stuff are also collectors or users of one type or > other - list people. It's not like the newsgroup stuff that's mass generated and > sent to 50 groups at a time whether it applies or > not. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ # 1714857 > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rexstout at uswest.net Fri Apr 10 20:33:08 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s In-Reply-To: <352EB5EC.B1D2C41E@bigfoot.com> References: <000c01bd6415$e4a2b080$73010bce@fauradon> Message-ID: >I've seen them recently still at local electronics stores as well. ISA is so >much easier to build custom boards for than PCI. Now that I think about it... Where does one find info on designing ISA(or MCA, or PCI, or NuBus, or...) boards? From the looks of most boards, the actual hardware isn't that hard(unless you consider such fine wiring or PCB design difficult like I do), it's programming something to get it to work(which I suppose is pretty easy if you're a good programmer and know what you're doing, also something I'm not...). -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From cad at gamewood.net Fri Apr 10 20:38:09 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Question References: Message-ID: <352EC981.145E@gamewood.net> Wirehead Prime wrote: snip > What's the deal? I've got the drive jumpered to DS1. I have a suspicion > I'm being extremely ignorant about something here. What would cause the > described behavior? > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead IF the drive selection posibilities are 1, 2, 3, 4, then you have the right selection. IF on the other hand, the selection possibilities are 0, 1, 2, 3. Then you will need to select drive 0. Theese are both assuming that your 'floppy cable' does NOT have a 'twisted' section between the 1st and 2nd drive connectors, AND that you are plugging in to the connector closest to the 'feed' end (I.E. the 'first drive') If you are connecting your drive to the end connector of a 'cable with a twist', then you should have the drive jumpers set for #2 of 1-4, or #1 of 0-3. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From ecloud at bigfoot.com Fri Apr 10 20:43:33 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Rabbit 286 ???? References: <3.0.1.16.19980409165305.484f1926@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <352ECAC5.63808E9D@bigfoot.com> I've wanted to find one of those and do that too. 640 x 400 is probably line-doubled CGA (which is 320 x 200 and 640 x 200 in mono mode) or maybe EGA (not sure what res, I never had one of those). But it's probably red monochrome right? You could open it up and look at the interface to the display; if it's integrated into the motherboard, you're probably SOL, but maybe you're lucky and it's on an ISA card (not likely since they probably wanted to conserve slots as much as possible). Then again it could just directly use the CGA/EGA signals rather than something proprietary, but that would have been harder to do I'd think. You could get one of those cheesy upgrade options :-). There used to be 386 ISA cards, and there might still be those "Make It 386" or "-486" cards that replace the processor. I saw them as recently as a year or so ago in some catalog I think. Joe wrote: > > Today I bought three portable PCs marked "Rabbit 286". They're about > the size of a large lunch box and have a keyboard that fastens against one > side. When you remove the keyboard it uncovers a gas plasma screen. There > are slots for two 3.5 drives on the right hand side and a door on the left > side. Opening the door exposes the back of several expansion card slots. > There's a label on the bottom that says "Chicony Electronics Co.", "Model > 286G-A", "Gas Plasma Display" and "640H x 400W Dots". One almost works, one > is dead and the third one is somewhere in between. Does anyone know > anything about these? I'm wondering if it's possible to put a small 386 or > 486 mother board in these. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 10 20:50:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: eBay = Mkt Value? (was: my objection to recent postings) In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980410115813.37872f46@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > And even though I know you wouldn't do that, I still not that easy. As an > example, I've got two SE/30 motherboards, brand new, in the Apple Service > boxes. I know some people here expressed interest in them, so I should > probably offer them here, cheaply. The problem is, they're actually part > of the Mac stuff allocated to my girlfriend's school. If I sold them on > eBay, I might get enough to buy a complete, working IIci system to put into > the classroom for the kids to use. What do I do? Whatever suits your situation best is what you should do. In the end, its what you want to do, not what others say you should do. I don't think anyone should feel an absolute obligation to give us folks here first crack at what you have to sell. It would be nice, but realistically, some people may simply need the money and will want to get the most they can. Its not always possible, and it shouldn't be required, to justify your decision. This spring when I hold the Vintage Computer Festival auction, whereby all proceeds will go towards bills for VCF2, you bet your ass I'll want to get as much as I can for the stuff I will auction. In this case though, since I'm not fond of the way Ebay auctions work, I'll be using my own auction software running on my ISPs server. But if I didn't feel so strongly that Ebay's auction sucks, you bet I'd be listing everything on there. Putting on an event like the VCF costs lots of money, and I know there would be a frenzy on Ebay that would probably net me enough money to fund the whole show. > And even if they weren't going to the school, I wasn't able to take my dad > and niece to Disneyland this year because I can't afford it. If I sold > them on eBay, that would pay for part of a cheap trip to Dland. Its your stuff. You have a right to do with it as you please, and you owe it to yourself to do what your situation dictates. Offering stuff for sale to us folks first before going to Ebay is noble and appreciated, but I hope nobody will hold it against anyone else for going straight to Ebay. Everyone's situation is different. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Fri Apr 10 23:04:31 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: Telex 181-GP printer Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980410210431.007d7b90@wingate> Nephew has acquired a Telex 181-GP dot matrix printer. I've looked on the net, and it looks like Telex is all but gone. Any idea where I might find documentation on this unit? I'm assuming it emulates a 5152, like almost every other DM made in the 80's. Kind of ironic, as we had a huge Telex facility here in Tulsa for years. -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 10 22:03:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) Message-ID: <199804110303.AA17141@world.std.com> < Allison, this was private email, but I figure this may be OOPs, though I did check the header as classiccmp...? < like the 11/23 and 11/73 line should run this BSD variant as < well... what I want to know is, did the kernel fit into 64K in < one segment, or did they spread the kernel across segment < bounderies? If so, how? The kernel never fit in 64kb as the pdp11 is word addressed also the MMU operates on 4kb pages. Also the top 4kbytes are IO space. So the idea of the kernel fitting in 64k is not relevent. The real question was did it fit in the 11/44 or 45 who only had 256k (18bit addresses) space. The 11/23 and later Qbus machines were Q22 (4mb address space). The larger space means more available ram that can be used without resorting to swapping (or at least less frequently). Also PDP11s come in two other flavors, those with I&D space and those without. The 11/23 and 11/34 are those without. The 44, 45, 70, 73, 83 and others have I&D which means that Instructions and Data spaces can be seperate doubling the amount of memory available. Added to that is user and system space (memory protection between processes). So it's possible for a PDP11 to actaully address four distinct areas of memory that are non-overlapping and all 64k in size. Practical considerations limit it to less than that but it's nearly so and likely they would overlap as well. < I mean, I could see overlays (in the kernel... blech!), but I < don't remember the 11 supporting long long jumps... and address < value was 16 bits, period. Still, I was never great at 11 True of all segmented address machines. The larger 256k or 4mb space is broken into pages of which up to 8 are mapped into the 16bit address space. To do a long jump what is really done is the cpu remapped the needed page into logical space and does a 16bit jump to that page. The top 4 bits determine what page register is addressed and the contents of that register is appended to the lower 12 bit to form the larger address needed to manage a 4mb space. It takes 8 MMU registers and uses the content of the reg plus the 16bit address to form an address in physical space. < assembly. Could someone here give a good detailed account of < PDP-11 segment mapping support? Could my stack and register < values be retained and follow while moving from segment to < segment? And how the hell did you tell the memory manager you < wanted to pop to another segment, anyway? yes! A detailed discussion would wear out my fingers typing it. Sufficient that it was able to address more than 64k and while different than the 8088 or 286 in both cases the 16 bit address space was extended by argumenting the basic addressing and not extending the basic register set. I'm currently building a system using the z80 cousin called the z280 that can address 16mb of ram and the basic addressing is still 64k argumented by a MMU. Allison From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Apr 10 22:24:24 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:17 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) Message-ID: <008701bd64f9$685558e0$3167bcc1@hotze> That's exactly where I got it from. Now, I was just thinking that in 1973, that would be a huge space, the size (or larger) than hard drives! So you could transmit your entire hard drive in a second, barring server stuff and hard drive speed. It sounded strange to me. ;-) Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: James Willing To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 11, 1998 1:06 AM Subject: Re: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> > Sorry, but this seems crazy to me. Was Ethernet invented in 1973? Was it >> > 10MBps then? >> >> I somehow doubt it! > >>From the tagline of Bob Metcalfe's regular column in Infoworld... > (this should explain all...) > >"Technology pundit Bob Metcalfe invented Ethernet in 1973 and founded 3Com >in 1979, and today he specializes in the Internet..." > >...and just in case that does not work for you, I have a copy of the >original joint specification document buried in the archives somewhere. >B^} > >-jim >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 10 22:26:20 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Rabbit 286 ???? In-Reply-To: <352ECAC5.63808E9D@bigfoot.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19980409165305.484f1926@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980410222620.41d7d2d8@intellistar.net> Shawn, I opened a couple of them up last night and played with them. One is now fully functional and I *think* the display is history in the other one. I haven't checked the third one yet. At 06:43 PM 4/10/98 -0700, you wrote: >I've wanted to find one of those and do that too. > >640 x 400 is probably line-doubled CGA (which is 320 x 200 and 640 x 200 in >mono mode) or maybe EGA (not sure what res, I never had one of those). But >it's probably red monochrome right? It is EGA and it is red monochrome. Nice and bright! > >You could open it up and look at the interface to the display; if it's >integrated into the motherboard, you're probably SOL, but maybe you're lucky >and it's on an ISA card (not likely since they probably wanted to conserve It's strange, it has what appears to be a Western Digital controller card for the floppy and hard drive except the plasma display is also driven off the same card! There is also a second card in the machine that has a port for an external monitor. The motherboard appers to be a standard size and layout board. If it is, I'll probably stick a 386 or 486 motheboard in one of these machines. Joe >slots as much as possible). Then again it could just directly use the CGA/EGA >signals rather than something proprietary, but that would have been harder to >do I'd think. > >You could get one of those cheesy upgrade options :-). There used to be 386 >ISA cards, and there might still be those "Make It 386" or "-486" cards that >replace the processor. I saw them as recently as a year or so ago in some >catalog I think. > >Joe wrote: >> >> Today I bought three portable PCs marked "Rabbit 286". They're about >> the size of a large lunch box and have a keyboard that fastens against one >> side. When you remove the keyboard it uncovers a gas plasma screen. There >> are slots for two 3.5 drives on the right hand side and a door on the left >> side. Opening the door exposes the back of several expansion card slots. >> There's a label on the bottom that says "Chicony Electronics Co.", "Model >> 286G-A", "Gas Plasma Display" and "640H x 400W Dots". One almost works, one >> is dead and the third one is somewhere in between. Does anyone know >> anything about these? I'm wondering if it's possible to put a small 386 or >> 486 mother board in these. > >-- > _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com > (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud > __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ > From yowza at yowza.com Fri Apr 10 22:39:52 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Morrow Designs Pivot In-Reply-To: <1998Apr10.114926.1767.95140@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Marty wrote: > I recently acquired a Morrow Designs Pivot Model 2522 - Special, > serial number 31-0001488. Both the model number and serial number are > hand written on the manufacturer plate on the rear of this pc. Mine says "Model 2522 VB", "Serial Number 31-0001135". We're practically related :-) > dual 5 1/4 " floppy drives and 640k memory. The memory board is > labelled Morrow Zenith.This is an interesting portable having a rom > monitor for the built-in modem, what appears to be a built-in > calculator (haven't been able to get the calculator button to do > anything). Date can be changed in the monitor by pressing a button > also. Boots MS-DOS fine. My calculator button brings up a calculator. > I read in Stan Veit's book that Zenith licensed this technology from > Morrow. Does anyone have any further info on this unit or better yet a > operation manual? I'd also like to find a manual, but I can give you a couple of historical blurbs I snarfed from the net after acquiring my machine. The first blurb is about the Pivot II. I don't yet know how the Pivot II differs from the Pivot, but a Pivot II is on the way to me. The Pivot and/or Pivot II was apparently OEM'd by Zenith, Sperry, and even Osborne. THE MORROW/IRS ANGLE: 1986 March 04 (NB) -- Zenith Electronics Corporation won the Internal Revenue Service award for $28 million in portables--meaning up to 18,000 of them will be in the agency's field auditors' hands, but more importantly, a significant boost for the portable industry in general. Especially delighted is George Morrow, chairman of Morrow Designs, whose firm licensed the technology with which Zenith made its winning Z-171. The Z-171 is identical to Morrow' Pivot II with the exception of the color of the case and the screen. "We designed that machine and everyone is justly proud," said Morrow to NEWSBYTES. He says Sperry, which was bidding Pivot IIs under its own label, came in second. "It's damn nice to come in one and two!" << Subject: Re: Osborne From: "Arthur N. Borg" Date: 1997/05/09 Message-ID: <33735019.168E@ksts.seed.net.tw> Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm You are correct up to a point. The lunch box was designed by Vadem. I did not get a full explanation from Morrow but I think that both Osborne and Morrow backed Vadem to design this machine. The earliest Morrow Pivot machines had a display of only 12 lines. I don't know if they built any 25 line models before they went under. Their manuals were written with the expectation that 25 lines would be there almost instantly. Zenith bought some additional rights from Morrow to build that machine. My boss at that time wanted to build that product in 'his' factory in Taiwan. It was built in the Heath factory in Benton Harbor. After Morrow ended, Zenith hired the fellow who had been president of Morrow to be the head of ZDS. Under his reign, He had Vadem design the computer part of the EZ-PC which was the little XT all in one that Zenith made. That computer was probably the first IBM-PC clone that did not use an Intel microprocessor. It had a NEC V-20. George Morrow wrote a column in some magazine at the time telling how clever Vadem was to get the V-20 to emulate the 8088. I still have one of these and from time to time, it will come up with a message "Illegal V-20 instruction trapped". This design caused some internal hostility. A follow on computer was designed using an 8088 and a more conventional design. That computer never was developed to production. I always felt that the EZ-PC was handicapped by the MS-DOS software that came with the machine. This was a thing called MS-DOS Manager. It was an attempt to do some of the things that Windows does but in a non graphic environment. The instruction manual was so bad that no one that I met could ever figure out how to use this program. Even Jerry Pournelle of Byte magazine was turned off by it. Best regards, Art Borg >> -- Doug From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 10 23:55:31 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) In-Reply-To: References: <001001bd64a0$934d3ee0$3167bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: >This is a Star Trek question and has absolutely no place on this >discussion. Sam, Did you bother to read the entire question? Just because he was explaining why he was curious doesn't mean this is an invalid question! Thanks to you we've got a LOT of messages that have nothing to do with the actual question. >> Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? >> Feasable? >> Thanks, Tim, Yes, unfortunatly there has been very little information on this. This is old enough that it probably actually fits under the classic computer head. I've run across this twice, once was in a magazine somewhere between 1987-90, and I think it was Byte (I'm afraid I only remember where I was when I read the article, not when). There has apparently been considerable work on Holographic Memories, and at the time I gathered they were about the size of a sugar cube. I remember it said something about a cube that size being able to hold the equivalent of a CD or more. IIRC it was at least semi nonvolitale, and rewritable. They also had a prototype Optical computer that was the size of a desk, and the speed of an IBM XT. This was when a 386 was HOT stuff. I also heard something about this in the last year or two, but I'm afraid I can't remember anything about it. >Sam Alternate e-mail: >dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. It shows, and I'm sure it doesn't surprise anyone here. You seem to thrive on causing strife. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 11 00:13:10 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: gcc for VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <01IVO78182B6AELVIE@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: This touches on yesterdays VS2000 discusion. Somehow I got lucky today and found a pointer to a VAX version of gcc at ftp://ftp.cco.caltech.edu/pub/rankin/ of course I'm still trying to find a VAX VMS version of tar and gzip so I can install it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From aaron at wfi-inc.com Sat Apr 11 01:35:47 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980410101722.0c77f7d8@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Uncle Roger wrote: > I know it's been done for 8-bit Atari's. (I've seen a 1200xl with built-in > hard-drive, using a pentium with big HD and CD as a peripheral...) It's called an SIO2PC cable, which is a single interface built around a 1489 quad-line receiver. There are a couple of dos-based host programs, my favourite being APE, which lets you use your PC as up to 8 drives, an 850 interface, and a printer interface. Great stuff, and it's really saved my 8-bits from the garage. Aaron From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Apr 11 02:10:46 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <19496c14.352e9782@aol.com> Message-ID: <352F1776.1F3B716C@ndirect.co.uk> I can't believe that all this is happening and that there are no honest people in this list that are letting this happen withour saying anything. I know that usually the more vulgar and blunt people are the more ready to show their true colours but surely there must be someone here who thinks different and will have the courage to speak. enrico SUPRDAVE wrote: > > who bloody cares?! people, deal with your own problems; I dont want to hear > about them on the list. I have enough to deal with myself! > > david, back to deleting stupid messages > > In a message dated 98-04-10 17:47:45 EDT, you write: > > << Without comment > > enrico > > Anonymous wrote: > > > > Are you a fucking idiot, Limey? Cut the damn crying on the mailing list or > you might just open a message one day and have your whole machine become > instantly erased...Not a threat, a promise. > > -- > ======================================================== > Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK > Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) > please visit my website at: > ======================================================== > > -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Apr 11 02:12:00 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <199804101447.QAA05298@basement.replay.com> <352E9F22.CFDD6F8A@ndirect.co.uk> <352EA489.B3C8050@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <352F17BE.1E768828@ndirect.co.uk> Another gentle-man. enrico Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > > > Without comment > > > > enrico > > > > Anonymous wrote: > > > > > Why does he do this? The guy is obviously on a streak of self-destruction over a couple of stinking Britsh pounds. -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From afritz at iname.com Sat Apr 11 04:34:45 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: i387's Message-ID: I realize that this may not quite reach the 10year mark, but not many people deal with even this old of hardware. (Is there a group out there for "obsolete" yet non-yet-classic hardware?) I need to find somewhere to get many i387 chips. (I currently need about 15 to 20 of them.) Anyone know the best place to start looking? Adam ---------- Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com http://www.afritz.base.org ---------- From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Apr 11 05:12:41 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: i387's Message-ID: <005b01bd6532$7f5b4520$2067bcc1@hotze> >I realize that this may not quite reach the 10year mark, but not many >people deal with even this old of hardware. (Is there a group out there >for "obsolete" yet non-yet-classic hardware?) 10 years? Yes. The 80386 was designed in 1985, so the 387 couldn't be to much later than that. >I need to find somewhere to get many i387 chips. (I currently need about >15 to 20 of them.) Anyone know the best place to start looking? The EXACT place to look is Jameco, at http://www.jameco.com . In their newest catalog, they list the 80387 (unter Integrated circuts and then under Math Coprocessors), they have: (prices for the 10-99 range) 80387-33 $25.95 80387-40 $29.95 80387-16SX $34.95 """""""""20"" $39.95 """""""""25"" $44.95 I can give part #'s if you're interested. Hope this helps, Tim D. Hotze From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 11 05:54:24 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: gcc for VAX VMS In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "gcc for VAX VMS" (Apr 10, 21:13) References: Message-ID: <9804111154.ZM7617@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 10, 21:13, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Subject: gcc for VAX VMS > This touches on yesterdays VS2000 discusion. Somehow I got lucky today and > found a pointer to a VAX version of gcc at > ftp://ftp.cco.caltech.edu/pub/rankin/ of course I'm still trying to find a > VAX VMS version of tar and gzip so I can install it. Take a look at http://www.openvms.digital.com/openvms/freeware/cd.html Near the bottom of the page you'll find the "Tools" section, which includes zip, unzip, gzip, and vmstar. Unzip, gunzip, and vms tar are also on Digital's ftp site. There's a pointer at http://www.digital.com/info/vms-freeware.html or ftp directly from ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/VMS/vmstar-vax.exe Now, can someone remind me of the URL for VMS hobby licensing so I can do something about my MicroVAX? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Apr 11 07:38:49 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: i387's Message-ID: I had looked in jameco's catalog before, and the prices seem rather high! $25 for a single mathco is outrageous. i remember they did/do sell system boards that arent necessarily state of the art for 2-3 times a "normal" price. do they still sell apple parts? mouser electronics (if still around) might have parts cheaper. In a message dated 98-04-11 06:13:39 EDT, you write: << >I realize that this may not quite reach the 10year mark, but not many >people deal with even this old of hardware. (Is there a group out there >for "obsolete" yet non-yet-classic hardware?) 10 years? Yes. The 80386 was designed in 1985, so the 387 couldn't be to much later than that. >I need to find somewhere to get many i387 chips. (I currently need about >15 to 20 of them.) Anyone know the best place to start looking? The EXACT place to look is Jameco, at http://www.jameco.com . In their newest catalog, they list the 80387 (unter Integrated circuts and then under Math Coprocessors), they have: (prices for the 10-99 range) 80387-33 $25.95 80387-40 $29.95 80387-16SX $34.95 """""""""20"" $39.95 """""""""25"" $44.95 I can give part #'s if you're interested. Hope this helps, Tim D. Hotze >> From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Apr 11 08:05:17 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Re.: How about a weekly FS/T list? (was Sale postings to Classiccmp) Message-ID: <003601bd654c$f6223a00$6521a7cd@bothell> On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:43:19 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: >>Even if everyone could agree on this it would last for about 1 week and >>then go back to status quo. I really don't mind the ads. They are not >>excessive, they are reaching a good market where there is a win-win (the >>seller gets some money and space back and the buyer gets first crack at >>cool stuff), and they are more on topic than the drivel that has been >>plaguing us for the last four weeks or so. Whether or not it would go back would depend on our level of commitment. I don't think that it is burdensome lately, because some are concentrating on slinging mud, but it would be nice to have them all in one place. Reference so to speak. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Apr 11 08:12:22 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup Message-ID: <003701bd654c$f7059520$6521a7cd@bothell> On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:49:03 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Anyway, as part of my Microsoft beta testing, I belong to a small group > of "elite" testers. Called ClubWin!, we have a private administrative > newsgroup that requires a login name and password. Having a ClassicCmp > newsgroup would provide a threaded conversation capability. We could also > hang an e-mail gateway off of the news server to provide e-mail messages for > those who can't or want to use a newsgroup. >>Give us more details, Richard. Well, since I wasn't the one who implemented the news server, I'm only guessing as to its implementation. You can probably hang a NNTP (news) server off of any Internet-accessible server. The news server has its own IP address. Bill Whitson could create one off of the ClassicCmp server at UofWA, or anyone else here with a free IP address and the approval of the bosses. You could then also provide an e-mail gateway the news server so that those who want the newsgroup activity by e-mail can get it. Authentication is either anonymous or login required. Each of us is given a login name and password (like rcini and 12345678), which will be required to logon. From there, your newsreader takes over. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Apr 11 09:06:32 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup Message-ID: <006e01bd6553$260821c0$2067bcc1@hotze> Yeah, but could such a thing be done on Linux/UNIX OS's? I'm guessing that you would need a NT server... and I don't like NT servers. I actually had a NT and Linux server running on the exact same machine, at different times. NT was harder to handle, and had more crashes just when I needed it most, with many requests. Also, I had to reboot it 8 times to get it set up with my video card, but not other cards, altogether, it took 16 reboots, compared to 1 with Linux. My NT 5.0 beta is showing some signs of hope, but I'll need a lot more before trusting NT with a hobby list as important as this one. Just my 0.02 Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, April 11, 1998 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:49:03 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Richard A. Cini wrote: > >> Anyway, as part of my Microsoft beta testing, I belong to a small >group >> of "elite" testers. Called ClubWin!, we have a private administrative >> newsgroup that requires a login name and password. Having a ClassicCmp >> newsgroup would provide a threaded conversation capability. We could also >> hang an e-mail gateway off of the news server to provide e-mail messages >for >> those who can't or want to use a newsgroup. > > >>>Give us more details, Richard. > > Well, since I wasn't the one who implemented the news server, I'm only >guessing as to its implementation. You can probably hang a NNTP (news) >server off of any Internet-accessible server. The news server has its own IP >address. Bill Whitson could create one off of the ClassicCmp server at >UofWA, or anyone else here with a free IP address and the approval of the >bosses. You could then also provide an e-mail gateway the news server so >that those who want the newsgroup activity by e-mail can get it. > > Authentication is either anonymous or login required. Each of us is >given a login name and password (like rcini and 12345678), which will be >required to logon. From there, your newsreader takes over. > >Rich Cini/WUGNET > (remove nospam_ to use) > ClubWin! Charter Member (6) > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >============================================ > > > > From emu at ecubics.com Sat Apr 11 09:30:33 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: gcc for VAX VMS Message-ID: <19980411141904.AAA26372@1Cust54.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Pete, ---------- > From: Pete Turnbull > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: gcc for VAX VMS > Date: Saturday, April 11, 1998 4:54 AM > > > Now, can someone remind me of the URL for VMS hobby licensing so I can do > something about my MicroVAX? please have a look at: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/register.html cheers, emanuel P.S. You have to be a DECUS member for this, .... From emu at ecubics.com Sat Apr 11 09:33:53 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: gcc for VAX VMS Message-ID: <19980411142224.AAA835@1Cust54.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Pete, ---------- > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: gcc for VAX VMS > Date: Saturday, April 11, 1998 4:54 AM > > Now, can someone remind me of the URL for VMS hobby licensing so I can do > something about my MicroVAX? > have a look at: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/register.html cheers, emanuel From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Apr 11 09:24:04 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <43fa72a4.352f7d06@aol.com> now, back to something on topic... picked up an unenhanced //e system for $10. a bit dirty from no use and a broken shift key, but powers up fine. came with 2 floppies, monchrome display which needs the contrast control cleaned and the ever popular system saver. this one has a hayes micromodem //e whereas the ][+ i got last week had a micromodem II. besides the way they connect to the phone line, are there any major differences? i presume both are still 300bps. david From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Apr 11 09:47:27 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup In-Reply-To: <006e01bd6553$260821c0$2067bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <13346961170.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Reliability of Windows NT] I get to play with NT now, as a part of work... IT STINKS! I forget who here worked at microsoft, but whomever, PLEASE tell R&D to find a way to make it require reboots less! Every time I make some minor change, I have to reboot the server. Thank God it's not production yet! If this was our dial-in server or something else important, I'd be toast by now. I call NT One-Eyed-Monster. The story: Customer calls, "I just built a 95 *monster* computer! I bet I can beat a server!" Me: "What've you got?" Customer: "Pentium II!" Me: "You lose. We have an Alpha. How's it run?" Cust: "Normal no-eyed-monster." Me: ?? Cust: "Walks into a wall too often"... I've come to the conclusion that NT has one eye, it knows where it's headed, but it still walks into a wall too often... [And to make it relevant...] Once the NCR SCSI driver for NetBSD is finished, (It's currently PIO-Only) I have a MicroVAX 3100 running NetBSD. Will that do as a server? It's up as long as I keep it up (24-7-365?) at the fast end of a T-1... ------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 11 09:57:40 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup In-Reply-To: "Hotze" "Re: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup" (Apr 11, 17:06) References: <006e01bd6553$260821c0$2067bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <9804111557.ZM8085@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 11, 17:06, Hotze wrote: > Subject: Re: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup > Yeah, but could such a thing be done on Linux/UNIX OS's? I'm guessing that > you would need a NT server... You can run the INN server under linux (or other UNIXes), and it supports authorisation. I'd expect that the real problem is finding the extra space to store the newsgroup files. At present, I don't think the list takes up much file space, since the postings aren't archived (AFAIK). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 11 09:33:39 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: gcc for VAX VMS In-Reply-To: "emanuel stiebler" "Re: gcc for VAX VMS" (Apr 11, 8:30) References: <19980411141904.AAA26372@1Cust54.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <9804111533.ZM8052@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 11, 8:30, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull > > Now, can someone remind me of the URL for VMS hobby licensing so I can do > > something about my MicroVAX? > > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/register.html > P.S. You have to be a DECUS member for this, .... Thanks! I also see that it only covers a few countries -- not including the UK, where I am. I let my UK DECUS membership lapse, when they started charging considerable (at least, from a student's point of view) amounts of money for annual membership and vast amounts of money for software from the library. It's not like in the States, where there's a no-charge Basic Membership. What does DECUS do in other countries? There must be lots of peopel like us who keep old 11s and VAXen running. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From maynard at jmg.com Sat Apr 11 11:57:29 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup In-Reply-To: <006e01bd6553$260821c0$2067bcc1@hotze> (photze@batelco.com.bh) References: <006e01bd6553$260821c0$2067bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <199804111657.MAA02969@mr-gateway.internal.net> Tim, Linux generally runs classic news servers such as INN or CNews+NNTP. Most Linux distro's ship with INN as that is currently being maintained. I've set up INN sites with full newsfeeds, thousands of users, and peak usage of +500 concurrent users... in the BIG News server world this is considered 'dinky.' Though I haven't done this under Linux I would expect a modern x86 with plenty of ram should be able to handle the job of a full feed+bunch o' users, especially now that in kernel disk striping is available. As for handling a small group like this along with some ancilliary groups like 'for sale', 'EE', etc., with our volume I bet a Sun 3 or VAXStation could handle the load of NNTP Server, Mail Server, and mail to news exploder. I can't speak to Microsoft NT as a stable News serving platform; never done that. I can't imagine how it would work without symbolic links and heirerarchical mount points, but I note that there _are_ commercial news servers available. However, INN, Cnews+NNTP, and even the original BNews are still available in Open Source. As always, YMMV. Though, for something like this I would _always_ suggest the free alternative first. ;-) --jmg > From: "Hotze" > Subject: Re: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup > > Yeah, but could such a thing be done on Linux/UNIX OS's? I'm guessing that > you would need a NT server... and I don't like NT servers. I actually had a > NT and Linux server running on the exact same machine, at different times. > NT was harder to handle, and had more crashes just when I needed it most, > with many requests. Also, I had to reboot it 8 times to get it set up with > my video card, but not other cards, altogether, it took 16 reboots, compared > to 1 with Linux. My NT 5.0 beta is showing some signs of hope, but I'll > need a lot more before trusting NT with a hobby list as important as this > one. > Just my 0.02 [snip] From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Apr 11 10:32:17 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup Message-ID: <19980411153217.733.qmail@hotmail.com> Wait a second, ARE there private newsgroups on this topic? I thought it was just an idea everyone proposed but never did... > >At 08:49 AM 4/10/98 -0400, you wrote: >> Scanning today''s messages gave me an idea. I don't know if this has >>been discussed before, but I don't remember it being discussed. > >It has. It comes up every now and then on every mailing list. What >usually happens is that those who want a newsgroup go off a create a >newsgroup, and the ones who can't access or don't like newsgroups stick to >the e-mail list, and the real die-hards follow both, cross-posting stuff >all the time. > >> ClubWin! Charter Member (6) > ^ >I am not a number, I am a free man! > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From emu at ecubics.com Sat Apr 11 11:45:14 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: gcc for VAX VMS Message-ID: <19980411163345.AAA28327@1Cust54.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Pete, ---------- > From: Pete Turnbull > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: gcc for VAX VMS > Date: Saturday, April 11, 1998 8:33 AM > > does DECUS do in other countries? There must be lots of peopel like us who > keep old 11s and VAXen running. probably they don't use VMS ... ;-)) but serious, i think they expanding this Hobbiist thing to other countries. one day .... cheers, emanuel From maynard at jmg.com Sat Apr 11 13:11:43 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <199804110303.AA17301@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199804110303.AA17301@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199804111811.OAA03061@mr-gateway.internal.net> Ahhhh, a little bit of checking around and I found this FAQ: http://www.village.org/pdp-11/faq.html Also, our favorite Tim Shoppa is listed as the maintainer of a historic PDP-11 archive at sunsite.... go figure. ;-) The FAQ is pretty small, but it's got a bit of history and a _very_ informative section containing the PDP-11 instruction set, register layout, and a bit about the MMU (though not as much as I would have liked - not complaining here!). Alright, so what we have is the last 4KW used up for stack space, register mapping, and IO mapping. I would guess the first 4KW were used up by the boot prom and monitor, which leaves about 12KW for an application jump table and initialization, the rest for memory mapped windows to the MMU... do I have it right? Even on a machine with a full 22bits of address lines on the backplane, like an 11/73, the CPU still only has a 16bit address space. The faq doesn't make it terribly clear what happens if you want to open up any arbitrary window. When you say that I take the first 4 bits of an address to specify the page register, and append my 12 bits of address to the contents of the page register to form my jump, I still need a physical 16 bit address to load into the program counter for the jump. hmmm, I'm really confused: QUOTE: 0 000 000 001 ddd ddd -- JMP JuMP Loads the destination address into the PC, thus effecting an unconditional jump. Note that a trap will occur on some systems if an odd address is specified. On others, the destination is silently rounded down to the next-lower even address (i.e., the right-most bit is ignored). _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ |0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|i|i|i| | | | | | | Op | UNQUOTE: Why is the jump destination address only six bits long? Jeesh, I hope I'm not asking the obvious.... BTW: Tony Duell is also listed as a contributor to the FAQ... jeesh, we've got everybody! --jmg > From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > Subject: Re: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) > > > < Allison, this was private email, but I figure this may be > > OOPs, though I did check the header as classiccmp...? > > < like the 11/23 and 11/73 line should run this BSD variant as > < well... what I want to know is, did the kernel fit into 64K in > < one segment, or did they spread the kernel across segment > < bounderies? If so, how? > > The kernel never fit in 64kb as the pdp11 is word addressed also the MMU > operates on 4kb pages. Also the top 4kbytes are IO space. So the idea of > the kernel fitting in 64k is not relevent. The real question was did it > fit in the 11/44 or 45 who only had 256k (18bit addresses) space. The > 11/23 and later Qbus machines were Q22 (4mb address space). The larger > space means more available ram that can be used without resorting to > swapping (or at least less frequently). > > Also PDP11s come in two other flavors, those with I&D space and those > without. The 11/23 and 11/34 are those without. The 44, 45, 70, 73, > 83 and others have I&D which means that Instructions and Data spaces can > be seperate doubling the amount of memory available. Added to that is > user and system space (memory protection between processes). So it's > possible for a PDP11 to actaully address four distinct areas of memory > that are non-overlapping and all 64k in size. Practical considerations > limit it to less than that but it's nearly so and likely they would > overlap as well. > > < I mean, I could see overlays (in the kernel... blech!), but I > < don't remember the 11 supporting long long jumps... and address > < value was 16 bits, period. Still, I was never great at 11 > > True of all segmented address machines. The larger 256k or 4mb space is > broken into pages of which up to 8 are mapped into the 16bit address > space. To do a long jump what is really done is the cpu remapped the > needed page into logical space and does a 16bit jump to that page. > The top 4 bits determine what page register is addressed and the contents > of that register is appended to the lower 12 bit to form the larger > address needed to manage a 4mb space. > > It takes 8 MMU registers and uses the content of the reg plus the 16bit > address to form an address in physical space. > > < assembly. Could someone here give a good detailed account of > < PDP-11 segment mapping support? Could my stack and register > < values be retained and follow while moving from segment to > < segment? And how the hell did you tell the memory manager you > < wanted to pop to another segment, anyway? > > yes! A detailed discussion would wear out my fingers typing it. > > Sufficient that it was able to address more than 64k and while different > than the 8088 or 286 in both cases the 16 bit address space was extended > by argumenting the basic addressing and not extending the basic register > set. > > I'm currently building a system using the z80 cousin called the z280 that > can address 16mb of ram and the basic addressing is still 64k argumented > by a MMU. > > > Allison > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 11 12:02:48 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:18 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: "J. Maynard Gelinas" "Re: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet)" (Apr 11, 14:11) References: <199804110303.AA17301@world.std.com> <199804111811.OAA03061@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: <9804111802.ZM8165@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 11, 14:11, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > Alright, so what we have is the last 4KW used up for stack > space, register mapping, and IO mapping. I would guess the > first 4KW were used up by the boot prom and monitor, which > leaves about 12KW for an application jump table and > initialization, the rest for memory mapped windows to the > MMU... do I have it right? I'm not sure how you did the arithmetic :-) 4KW (8KB) is used for the "I/O Page" which *includes* the boot PROMs. Stack can be anywhere. > QUOTE: > 0 000 000 001 ddd ddd -- JMP JuMP > > Loads the destination address into the PC, thus effecting an > unconditional jump. > Why is the jump destination address only six bits long? > Jeesh, I hope I'm not asking the obvious.... Because the DDD DDD specifies a register (1 of 8) and address mode (1 of 8) to use. So, you'll often see something like JMP @#0173000, which is represented in two words 000137,173000. In this example, the address mode is 3 (auto-increment deferred, deferred = indirect) and the register to use is R7, which is the PC. So it means "jump to the address given in the word the PC points to". In other words, that's how you code an absolute jump. The reason for the auto-increment is that that mode is the general way of getting immediate data, and in the general case you do need to increment the PC after the read (think about MOV R0, @#0173000, opcode 010037,173000 which stores R0 in 173000). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 11 13:26:32 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: gcc for VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <9804111154.ZM7617@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> References: "Zane H. Healy" "gcc for VAX VMS" (Apr 10, 21:13) Message-ID: Pete Turnbull wrote: >Near the bottom of the page you'll find the "Tools" section, which includes >zip, unzip, gzip, and vmstar. Unzip, gunzip, and vms tar are also on >Digital's >ftp site. There's a pointer at Thanks, I'll grab them from there. Of course now CMUIP is giving me problems and doesn't seem to want to transfer the gcc archive off of my Linux box. It lets me ftp small text files, without a problem. Doesn't do a thing when I try to do a binary ftp of gcc. >Now, can someone remind me of the URL for VMS hobby licensing so I can do >something about my MicroVAX? Well, since you are in the UK, you'll need to go for the European Hobbyist License, unfortunatly I can't find the URL for the Web page. IIRC it's actually the digital European web sit. I've got it bookmarked at work, but they've got a downtime right now so I can't access my files at the moment. There was a USENET post on this, but I couldn't dig it out with DejaNews. When the info about this was posted there was mention that the Eurpopean Hobbyist License might also include Alpha's, be interesting to know if that's true. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From dastar at wco.com Sat Apr 11 12:22:34 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: <43fa72a4.352f7d06@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, SUPRDAVE wrote: > now, back to something on topic... > > picked up an unenhanced //e system for $10. a bit dirty from no use and a > broken shift key, but powers up fine. came with 2 floppies, monchrome display > which needs the contrast control cleaned and the ever popular system saver. > this one has a hayes micromodem //e whereas the ][+ i got last week had a > micromodem II. besides the way they connect to the phone line, are there any > major differences? i presume both are still 300bps. Not really, save for what you already noticed (which is that the micromodem // requires the external box for connection to the phone line). The Micromodem //e is just a better version. Both are 300bps. The Micromodem //e was my first modem. I still remember the first time I logged in with it. I was using the Hayes SmartModem software and didn't know there was an option to turn off the carrier after connect. I used it for a couple weeks like that annoying anyone who would walk by with the carrier squeal. I have a set of machine language drivers I wrote for the modem, including an ampersand (&) library so that you can access the modem from BASIC and write your own modem programs. It handles stuff like off-hook, on-hook, dial digit string, wait for rings, wait for carrier, etc. The Micromodem //e did not use the AT command set oddly enough. You had to drive it manually by poking memory addresses and stuff. I used the library to write a fast wardialing program (it could do about 1000+ numbers an hour). If you ever want it for anything, its available. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From cad at gamewood.net Sat Apr 11 13:33:55 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <19496c14.352e9782@aol.com> <352F1776.1F3B716C@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <352FB793.5ED2@gamewood.net> Hi Enrico: I do care, You have alerted the list members to a possible problem. Beyond that you are wasting _your_ time, making a lot of people upset with you, and generally behaving like a spoiled child. Just _what_ do you think is going to happen? That your problem shipment will miraculously be repaired. You should realize by now that 'shame' isn't going to fix things. The initial post has the potential to be useful to someone. The later posts, and 'SPAM quotes' just serve to destroy any sympathy that may have been there to start with. My suggestion, although you probably won't take it, is to just drop things and 'let it die'. Chuck Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > > I can't believe that all this is happening and that there are no honest people > in this list that are letting this happen withour saying anything. > -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Apr 11 14:34:45 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Oh I get it. The deal is that the Northstar controller isn't being > jumped to on power on like it's supposed to and so it's going to sit > turned off...when I flip the cable over the right way it sits, when I Thanks to the kind assistance of Allison Parent, the Northstar is now trying to boot! Woo hoo! Now I've got to put an appropriate drive in the bay and locate the NSDOS boot diskette that another kind person (Mr. Young if I recall) sent me, figure out what baud rate the thing is set for and see if I can get it boot all the way! I LOVE retrocomputing! Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sat Apr 11 14:44:11 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > the bay and locate the NSDOS boot diskette that another kind person (Mr. > Young if I recall) sent me, figure out what baud rate the thing is set Oops...I should give credit where credit is due. It was actually Doug Coward. Thanks Doug! And I found the diskette! Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 11 13:58:57 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) Message-ID: <199804111858.AA10375@world.std.com> < Alright, so what we have is the last 4KW used up for stack < space, register mapping, and IO mapping. I would guess the and also boot proms. Default boot on PDP11 is 173000Q. The first page is where all the vectors for the interrupts and traps are. < MMU... do I have it right? Even on a machine with a full < 22bits of address lines on the backplane, like an 11/73, the < CPU still only has a 16bit address space. The faq doesn't make < it terribly clear what happens if you want to open up any < arbitrary window. Think of the 4mb (q22) as linear physical space. At any time the CPU/MMU can allocate contigious or scattered blocks of that space as logical physical space. To do a "long jump" a local jump to a system space is done, memory management code is run and then a jump to the now available code (in logical space) is done. One of the background jobs would be to swap out old segments that are unused to make room for current processes and swap them back if the non current process should wake up. The cpu is always in logical 16bit space but the windows (multiple) can be moved around. An ascii graphic would show the CPU 16bit space as several blocks mapped to multiple blocks scattered in a larger space. The cpu literally never leaves the range of a 16bit space but instead trade out chunks of it for different ones out of an available pool. You never actually jump put of logical space only shuffle what physical memory is part of that space. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 11 12:14:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s In-Reply-To: from "John Rollins" at Apr 10, 98 06:33:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2107 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980411/40f3d561/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 11 12:26:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <199804110303.AA17301@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 10, 98 11:03:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980411/5b87eade/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Apr 11 16:49:45 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole In-Reply-To: Enrico Tedeschi's message of Sat, 11 Apr 1998 07:10:46 +0000 References: <19496c14.352e9782@aol.com> <352F1776.1F3B716C@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <199804112149.OAA02161@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Enrico Tedeschi wrote: >I can't believe that all this is happening and that there are no honest people >in this list that are letting this happen withour saying anything. OK Enrico, you asked for it. I'm going to say something. The recollection I have of what happened (from reading the original flamefest on the list) is that you and Cord were swapping computers, with you expecting a TRS-80 with Level I BASIC. And that is what you got, only when you got it you found that it had a numeric keypad, unlike the original stock TRS-80. So...no, I don't understand what you're so upset about, except that you got something that didn't look like what you expected based on your preconceived notions of what a "TRS-80 with Level I BASIC" should look like. Well, as it happens I don't know whether Radio Shack ever took to manufacturing all Model 1 TRS-80s with numeric keypads after some date, or whether the numeric keypad was included with the Level II BASIC upgrade (don't think so, at least not always), or whether it was available without a Level II BASIC upgrade. So I'd have been surprised by that keypad too, but for all I know it could have come from the factory like that or been upgraded by its original owner, who wanted to do lots of numeric data entry on a Level I BASIC system. Really I think there's a valuable lesson to be learned here, namely when trading in old computers it's a good idea to do some research and have some idea what the scope of possible configurations is, so that if you are buying you will have some idea what sort of questions to ask to find out just what the seller is selling. Or if you are selling, so you will have some idea of what you are selling. Don't count on the seller knowing what's important to you, or even where what he's got fits in that scope of configurations -- he may not. Even if he's another computer collector and/or familiar with that manufacturer's equipment, he may not know -- the sorts of questions I read (and even some of those I write) tell me that most of us have a lot to learn about these old machines, and none of us know everything about all of them. And even with all that in mind, expect some surprises! For example, a while back I bought a couple of HP 9825s from some guy in Southern California. Looking at the HP Calculator Museum web pages and some of my old HP test/measurement catalogs, I expected that one of them (the 9825B I think) would have a "computer" keyboard with full-travel keys. I didn't bother asking. Surprise, when it arrived both had the older clicky desktop-calculator keyboard of the 9825A. I pointed this out to the seller and he didn't know, though he has seen 9825s with the full-travel keys. Maybe it was an A that got field-upgraded to a B? We don't know, and I didn't really see any point in getting bent out of shape about it -- I got what I wanted, learned something, and now I have a good excuse to get another one! -Frank McConnell From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sat Apr 11 17:24:14 1998 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings Message-ID: <199804112224.SAA19001@webern.cs.unc.edu> Sometimes advertising annoys me too. But when I think about it, maybe I'd rather have those ads than not. Someday maybe I'll get something I want from one of them if prices stay within reach. More recently, I've created a related dillemna of my own. I've been talking with a recycler, trying to convince him to offer whole boards or computers for sale, rather than just a few chips that he pulls from them. In doing so, I pointed out that an Altair sold for so much money recently. Of course, I also pointed out that that particular sale may have been a fluke, and he shouldn't necessarily expect that. The dillemna is this: these are exactly the kind of guys that will annoy me most. They have no inherent interest in preserving old machinery, and would have no remorse in melting down an Altair for twenty-three cents worth of metal. They will more than happy to behave as kidnappers, demanding ransom with rare artifacts at stake, happily driving prices up as high as they can. Of course, the obvious reply is about free-market economics, prices adjusting to meet demand, and all that. What I'm thinking is, maybe we should be glad that there is not yet a well-entrenched market for this old stuff, with guide-books establishing fair pricing and such. When that happens, scarcity will force all the old machines into the hands of rich know-nothing collectors, and out of the reach of the hackers who would cherish them for what they are. But how do we discourage that from happening, while at the same time trying to divert machinery from the acid-bath? The only argument that recyclers seem likely to listen to is about making money. But each time that argument gets used, it nudges us toward the day when all of our old computers lie decaying in display cabinets of the affluent, rather than living and working happily in our own basements. Ideas? Bill. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 11 17:26:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) Message-ID: <199804112226.AA23320@world.std.com> One other thing, before soldering stuff onto that board, make a copy of it. (Do photocopiers make decent prints of bare boards?) Once a board has chips soldered onto it, it can be a pain to figure out which things connect to what. Having a bare-board print could help a lot in reverse-engineering the schematic (although I suspect there are still MP-A schematics to be had out there). And who knows, you might someday want to clone that board. Cheers, Bill. ] From: "Jeff Kaneko" ] ] Guys: ] ] Afer looking at a number of responses, Uncle Roger's position ] seems the most logical to me (besides, one other person suggested ] this also). I think I'll buy that parts to build this, and just keep ] it until needed. ] ] Building it won't be a priority, though. The MP-A wasn't exactly the ] best SS-50 CPU available. I have a NOS Thomas Instruments Super CPU, ] that I've wanted to build for years. Compared with other S-50 boards ] of that era, it had alot of cool features. I am working on getting a ] couple of scarce parts for its companion video board. ] ] Jeff From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 11 17:59:23 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: TRS-80 configs/formally flamefest Message-ID: <199804112259.AA06353@world.std.com> from "J. Maynard Gelinas" at Apr 11, 98 02:11:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7350 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980411/75e9e55a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 11 17:08:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <199804112226.AA23320@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 11, 98 06:26:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1943 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980411/16fee7a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 11 17:18:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole In-Reply-To: <199804112149.OAA02161@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Apr 11, 98 02:49:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1706 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980411/84da32a8/attachment.ksh From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Apr 11 20:01:46 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <19496c14.352e9782@aol.com> <352F1776.1F3B716C@ndirect.co.uk> <199804112149.OAA02161@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <35301277.7D4C4EB1@ndirect.co.uk> It is not what you think: 1) he sent the wrong computer ad I CLEARLY SPECIFIED that I wanted the VERY FIRST TRS-80 model ever made and he knows this and that is why he is so vehement in his replies. 2) he said that he sent his parcel at the same time I did, but he did not send it until he got mine and even that took some convincement from me (he strangely could not find any receipt of his sent parcel and not even a receipt for the complaint he says he logged with the Post Office: what a coincidence!). To conceal this he told me that he had the parcel returned from the Post office but I can prove that he only packed it AFTER he received mine (he even used MY PACKING to send his computer to me and he even went into great lenghts to build himself same sort of alibi by enclosing inside a letter pre-dated at the time of our agreement but the post office date on the package gave away his lies). I have kept the owner of the list informed at all times and he can vouch for all this and I keep all the proves including his e-mails which say that he was happy with the computer I sent and he was thanking me while now, in the tentative to divert the matter away from him he says that the computer I sent does not work and he is not happy with it. 3)The computer he sent is a wreck with a broken case, bits missing etc. He is a CONMAN and he knows it and that is why he is refusing to discuss the matter. I even offered to pay again to dispatch for the right computer as it would be uneconomical for me and for him to return both the computers back to the source (I spend more than ?40.00 to send mine). There you are. I hope I have explained myself. This is not a private matter anymore: if he is so determined to con somebody who, he thinks that being so far away, cannot rehiterate, he might then decide to step up his career and strike locally. Thank you for your interest anyway. Ciao enrico Frank McConnell wrote: > > Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > >I can't believe that all this is happening and that there are no honest people > >in this list that are letting this happen withour saying anything. > > OK Enrico, you asked for it. I'm going to say something. > > The recollection I have of what happened (from reading the original > flamefest on the list) is that you and Cord were swapping computers, > with you expecting a TRS-80 with Level I BASIC. And that is what you > got, only when you got it you found that it had a numeric keypad, > unlike the original stock TRS-80. So...no, I don't understand what > you're so upset about, except that you got something that didn't look > like what you expected based on your preconceived notions of what a > "TRS-80 with Level I BASIC" should look like. > > Well, as it happens I don't know whether Radio Shack ever took to > manufacturing all Model 1 TRS-80s with numeric keypads after some > date, or whether the numeric keypad was included with the Level II > BASIC upgrade (don't think so, at least not always), or whether it was > available without a Level II BASIC upgrade. So I'd have been > surprised by that keypad too, but for all I know it could have come > from the factory like that or been upgraded by its original owner, who > wanted to do lots of numeric data entry on a Level I BASIC system. > > Really I think there's a valuable lesson to be learned here, namely > when trading in old computers it's a good idea to do some research and > have some idea what the scope of possible configurations is, so that > if you are buying you will have some idea what sort of questions to > ask to find out just what the seller is selling. Or if you are > selling, so you will have some idea of what you are selling. > > Don't count on the seller knowing what's important to you, or even > where what he's got fits in that scope of configurations -- he may > not. Even if he's another computer collector and/or familiar with > that manufacturer's equipment, he may not know -- the sorts of > questions I read (and even some of those I write) tell me that most of > us have a lot to learn about these old machines, and none of us know > everything about all of them. > > And even with all that in mind, expect some surprises! > > For example, a while back I bought a couple of HP 9825s from some guy > in Southern California. Looking at the HP Calculator Museum web pages > and some of my old HP test/measurement catalogs, I expected that one > of them (the 9825B I think) would have a "computer" keyboard with > full-travel keys. I didn't bother asking. Surprise, when it arrived > both had the older clicky desktop-calculator keyboard of the 9825A. I > pointed this out to the seller and he didn't know, though he has seen > 9825s with the full-travel keys. Maybe it was an A that got > field-upgraded to a B? We don't know, and I didn't really see any > point in getting bent out of shape about it -- I got what I wanted, > learned something, and now I have a good excuse to get another one! > > -Frank McConnell -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Apr 11 20:21:36 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole References: Message-ID: <3530171D.DEACEB26@ndirect.co.uk> I am much more bothered by conmans (read my other reply here). I collect for the historical inportance and for the history of design of old electronics and for what they meant in the lives of millions of persons. I don't even care if something is working or not. It is going to end up behing glass anyway. I can't possibly USE the more than 140 historical computer I have in my collection and don't even switch them on. I don't collect them for making them work but to display them and help to teach children and people about their importance in the hsitory of humanity. The appearance is (nearly) everything to me and so a mumeric keypad where it should not be is a GREAT bother to me. But as I said before I am more upset by conmans and even more by conmans' helpers. I would have thought that after I mentioned the problem I should have had messages of simpathy not insults and offences. They don't hurt me alone but they typify the senders and generally lower the tone and the style of this (and other) mailing lists and newsgroups. I am surprised by these people reactions and I only hope that there is a "silent majority" who does not speak but disapproves them and this is the only reason that keeps me from leaving conmans and their helpers to their destiny by leaving this list. Ciao enrico > BTW, Enrico, if you're so bothered about the presence or otherwise of the > keypad, why aren't you also bothered about the version of the CPU board > and the type of L1 ROMs fitted (IIRC, the technical manual mentions that > several different makes of L1 ROMs were used). Some machines had 2 off 2K > ROMs, some had a single 4K ROM, I think. Or do you only care about what > your machines look like from the outside? > > > -Frank McConnell > > -tony -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat Apr 11 20:48:13 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: i387's References: Message-ID: <35301D5D.9F4B7A2F@bbtel.com> Adam Fritzler wrote: > I realize that this may not quite reach the 10year mark, but not many > people deal with even this old of hardware. (Is there a group out there > for "obsolete" yet non-yet-classic hardware?) > > I need to find somewhere to get many i387 chips. (I currently need about > 15 to 20 of them.) Anyone know the best place to start looking? Try Computer Recyclers at http://www.comp-recycle.com/ first, they usually have them when I need them. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sat Apr 11 20:53:41 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? References: <199804112243.SAA19141@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <35301EA4.2484911@bbtel.com> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > One other thing, before soldering stuff onto that board, make a copy > of it. (Do photocopiers make decent prints of bare boards?) Once > a board has chips soldered onto it, it can be a pain to figure out > which things connect to what. Having a bare-board print could help > a lot in reverse-engineering the schematic (although I suspect there > are still MP-A schematics to be had out there). And who knows, you > might someday want to clone that board. I've found that the best way to make a dupe of the board is to set it on a full page scanner, in line art mode. Adjust the "gamma" and contrast/brightness as needed to get a good black error-free copy. You can even use it to make photopostives using the transparency film they make for copiers. This gives you an exposure film when using photosensituve printed circuit board. I've done the same to make replacement boards where the original was chemically or physically damaged on radios, vcr's, etc... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mor at crl.com Sat Apr 11 19:34:12 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: conman References: <352C7367.E86AD8AA@ndirect.co.uk> <352E3CFF.EC7339F0@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <35300C04.1EE77D23@crl.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > Why does this guy post private email in the list? As someone else stated - he may have > gotten screwed but he needs to channel his energy to other more creative things. We've all > heard enough about it. I'm to the point I might just buy something from the guy he's > accusing to see just what I get and possibly prove him wrong. I've already done a straight trade with Cord, and he sent the item exactly as promised, very quickly. A no problem deal. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 11 20:11:27 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: Tony Duell "Re: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet)" (Apr 11, 23:08) References: Message-ID: <9804120211.ZM8648@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 11, 23:08, Tony Duell wrote: > > Some versions and OS vaiations allowed a 2KW IO space. I've run RT-11 > > that way. > > Yep, you're right. The standard on Unibus machines was for a 4kW I/O > space. I've seen PDP11/45's and PDP11/34's that were modified for 2kW I/O > space, and, indeed, undone the mods. Some Q-bus machines had 2kW I/O > space as standard, I think. The 11/03 is the most notable one with a 2KW I/O space, but that's a mod, not the standard. Quit commonly done, though, because it was only 16-bit address. > Didn't the 11/24 have an optional unibus map card (the KT24?) I've never > seen one - my 11/24 is a pretty minimal configuration. Yes, I've got one, and it is indeed 22-bit. The problem is, I only have the board set, not the backplane, front panel, etc. I have a spare backplane, and I once inrtended to rewire it and build a panel, but never found enough info (the second slot is wired to the first in a non-standard way, to accomodate the Unibus map connections). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mor at crl.com Sat Apr 11 19:59:08 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) References: <199804102140.AA10780@world.std.com> Message-ID: <353011DC.700902FA@crl.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > < I seem to remember early Ethernet interface VAX quad cards > < being around 1.5Mbps... not sure if it was think ether, vampire > < tap stuff... This would have been before ethernet was turned > < into a 'standard.' One guy I know has one of these hanging > < from his wall along with some physical core for a PDP 11/44. I > < was too young to have used to implemented this stuff, so I > < can't claim to have actually _used_ such hardware. > > 802.. eithernet was always 10mbit/s. The 1.5mhz stuff was arcnet. They > are similar in that they are both bus topology using CSMA/CD arbitration. No, Arcnet is a star topology, polling system, pretty similar to token-ring. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From afritz at iname.com Sat Apr 11 21:11:30 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <353011DC.700902FA@crl.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > No, Arcnet is a star topology, polling system, pretty similar to > token-ring. Actually, AFAIK, Arcnet can be star, bus, or simply point-to-point. Adam ---------- Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com http://www.afritz.base.org ---------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Apr 11 21:12:32 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: DECMate Message-ID: <19980412021233.7867.qmail@hotmail.com> Could someone tell me the URL of the PDP 8/DECmate archive? I keep losing it ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From marvin at rain.org Sat Apr 11 21:34:34 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) References: <199804102140.AA10780@world.std.com> <353011DC.700902FA@crl.com> Message-ID: <35302839.55DFB2F6@rain.org> Greg Troutman wrote: > No, Arcnet is a star topology, polling system, pretty similar to > token-ring. I think you will find that Arcnet was not just star topology. Most of the machines I set up were just daisy chained with terminators on both ends. I still have an Arcnet hub but found that daisy chaining was a lot simpler. From archive at navix.net Sat Apr 11 22:33:59 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: conman References: <352C7367.E86AD8AA@ndirect.co.uk> <352E3CFF.EC7339F0@bbtel.com> <35300C04.1EE77D23@crl.com> Message-ID: <35303626.5490438C@navix.net> Greg Troutman wrote: > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Why does this guy post private email in the list? As someone else stated - he may have > > gotten screwed but he needs to channel his energy to other more creative things. We've all > > heard enough about it. I'm to the point I might just buy something from the guy he's > > accusing to see just what I get and possibly prove him wrong. > > I've already done a straight trade with Cord, and he sent the item > exactly as promised, very quickly. A no problem deal. > > -- > mor@crl.com > http://www.crl.com/~mor/ Thank you very much! I appreciate the compliments. CORD -- ___________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |___________________________________________________| | \____________________________________________________\| From archive at navix.net Sat Apr 11 22:29:11 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <19496c14.352e9782@aol.com> <352F1776.1F3B716C@ndirect.co.uk> <199804112149.OAA02161@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <35301277.7D4C4EB1@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <35303506.E7364E4E@navix.net> Enrico: You are absolutely right.... this is not a private matter any more. I have been biting my tonge reading all of your BS thus far. Why, because I am a greater man than you. Second, this list is clearly not the place for such a stupid discussion in the first place. Third, it is funny as hell for me to sit here and read this crap. But, I can only take so much slander before I, too, and compelled to write publically for the world to see: Enrico, and the world.... I AM NOT A CON MAN! I am a 22 year old full-time college student with a ten month old baby and two step-children aged 6 and 3. I happen to enjoy collecting computers, and I also collect autographs. I have never intentionally deceived anyone in my life. There is no reason to. Enrico, your story is a very special case. You originally requested, as you stated correctly and honestly, the very first TRS-80 computer made. I piped up (regret), and said, "Hey, Enrico... I have a spare TRS-80 Model 1 that I would ship thousands of miles to you to add to your collection." We then talked about a trade... ended up being you would send me an MSX computer (which I had been actively looking for on the list and elsewhere) in return for the Model 1. Then I gave you the specs on it, and you gave me the specs on the MSX. We both said, yeh-- great deal! Let's ship at the same time. We both shipped in the same week... via sea - no air-mail crap, too expensive. After about a month or two, I started checking with Enrico to see if he had received his yet. Hell, I had no idea how long it world take.. first international transaction. No, no, and no came the reply. Months later I got his in the mail. I let Enrico know this. Still he hadn't got mine. Finally, because I had stupidly checked the box that said return to sender if undeliverable, I received my original package back, with another $40 bill attached. The box was bent, tattered, and torn. I grabbed a box from my stash... it was Enrico's that he sent mine MSX in, but who gives a $h1+???? I mean come on! I shipped it out again: now I have just over $100 invested in this stupid trade, errr... the MSX. I then get time to power up the ol' MSX. Damn thing doesn't even work. I have correct power, video, and everything else. Light came on the first day, no video, no nothing, though. It then died on me completely. I open it up. Now, this is a shocker. Severed wires and shit. Great. I didn't even mention this raw end of the deal to Enrico or anyone else. Why? Because I am more mature than to bitch about something that I probably am not going to me able to do anything about. Who knows, maybe it happened in transit or something... at least I had the MSX that maybe could be fixed sometime. Ever since Enrico got his damn Model 1, he has been bitching to me and to the list. He has threatened to take me to some international court, he has threatened to slander my name on this list, his webpage, the newsgroups, and everywhere else in the world. His latest ploy was leaving negative feedback on Ebay about the transaction. Hell, Enricia, if you can't even remember this wasn't an E-bay transaction, how in the hell can you remember what we originally agreed upon. So, I thought - well, I'm a nice guy... maybe I did misunderstand in the first place. I can admit my faults when they are true. I said, hey Enrico, let's make this right, no matter who was at fault. How about we just pay our own expenses and swap back. Negate the whole transaction. Enrico says no. Ok, let me find a machine with no keypad on it, ok? He basically replies,"no, I know you have one there you conman." I say, no I don't Enrico but let me check around and if I can find one I'll pay and send it out to you. I looked and have yet to find anything in my area: rural Nebraska. If any of you have one, would you please send it to me so I can ship it to Enricia Swavey over there? Anyway, that is basically the gist of the story. It is stupid, completely and totally. No matter what I have done, or haven't done, he insists on being a complete ass to me. If he turns down offers I have made to make it right, how can he expect me to make it better?!?! About every week he would right and saw, "Cord -- fix my problem or you will pay." Ok, Enrico. Now, that is all I am publically going to say. Enrico, go ahead and blast of slanderous insults with no basis to any of it. I personally don't care. I enjoy reading them. But, everyone else on the list is completely tired of this crap. Take it up with me in private e-mail to discuss it further. Or, come beat me up. I don't care. I'm not a con man, never have been, never will be. I have a very large customer base that I deal in 8-bits with. But, if you insist, and to prove I really don't care: TO EVERYONE ON THE DAMN LIST -- YES, I AM A GREAT BIT FAT MEANY-HEAD!! There, are you happy, Enricia?? I hope so, because I am too. It is so much fun poking fun at you. Maybe it's just the way you 'sound' in your e-mails, but I find it completely hilarious. I haven't done anything wrong, and I have even tried to 'fix' I have done honestly and with your approval after the fact. Now, what is it you want from me, Enrica? That is all I have to say. Please e-mail me PRIVATELY if any of you (including Enraciaow) would like to discuss this further. Hum?? Maybe we should start fan clubs or something. You know take sides, make me sorry I am such a con-man, drive me into the very earth I stand on..... That's all... forever!! Sincerely, oh... Ciao' CORD "Con-Man" COSLOR ARCHIVE SOFTWARE PO BOX 308 PERU, NE 68421 p.s. After re-reading Enrico's tale, just a couple more comments: Yes, all along I did have a receipt for the sent parcel. And yes, I did have the receipt of the complaint filed with the PO. I told you from the start I had to re-send the parcel, and that I used your damn box. I wasn't trying to hide anything. But, yes, I am a con-man. You know why? That is what I am going to use in every one of my signature lines. Seriously, big boy!! Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > It is not what you think: > > 1) he sent the wrong computer ad I CLEARLY SPECIFIED that I wanted the VERY > FIRST TRS-80 model ever made and he knows this and that is why he is so > vehement in his replies. > > 2) he said that he sent his parcel at the same time I did, but he did not send > it until he got mine and even that took some convincement from me (he > strangely could not find any receipt of his sent parcel and not even a receipt > for the complaint he says he logged with the Post Office: what a > coincidence!). To conceal this he told me that he had the parcel returned from > the Post office but I can prove that he only packed it AFTER he received mine > (he even used MY PACKING to send his computer to me and he even went into > great lenghts to build himself same sort of alibi by enclosing inside a letter > pre-dated at the time of our agreement but the post office date on the package > gave away his lies). > I have kept the owner of the list informed at all times and he can vouch for > all this and I keep all the proves including his e-mails which say that he was > happy with the computer I sent and he was thanking me while now, in the > tentative to divert the matter away from him he says that the computer I sent > does not work and he is not happy with it. > > 3)The computer he sent is a wreck with a broken case, bits missing etc. > > He is a CONMAN and he knows it and that is why he is refusing to discuss the > matter. I even offered to pay again to dispatch for the right computer as it > would be uneconomical for me and for him to return both the computers back to > the source (I spend more than ?40.00 to send mine). > > There you are. I hope I have explained myself. This is not a private matter > anymore: if he is so determined to con somebody who, he thinks that being so > far away, cannot rehiterate, he might then decide to step up his career and > strike locally. > > Thank you for your interest anyway. > > Ciao > > enrico > > Frank McConnell wrote: > > > > Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > > >I can't believe that all this is happening and that there are no honest people > > >in this list that are letting this happen withour saying anything. > > > > OK Enrico, you asked for it. I'm going to say something. > > > > The recollection I have of what happened (from reading the original > > flamefest on the list) is that you and Cord were swapping computers, > > with you expecting a TRS-80 with Level I BASIC. And that is what you > > got, only when you got it you found that it had a numeric keypad, > > unlike the original stock TRS-80. So...no, I don't understand what > > you're so upset about, except that you got something that didn't look > > like what you expected based on your preconceived notions of what a > > "TRS-80 with Level I BASIC" should look like. > > > > Well, as it happens I don't know whether Radio Shack ever took to > > manufacturing all Model 1 TRS-80s with numeric keypads after some > > date, or whether the numeric keypad was included with the Level II > > BASIC upgrade (don't think so, at least not always), or whether it was > > available without a Level II BASIC upgrade. So I'd have been > > surprised by that keypad too, but for all I know it could have come > > from the factory like that or been upgraded by its original owner, who > > wanted to do lots of numeric data entry on a Level I BASIC system. > > > > Really I think there's a valuable lesson to be learned here, namely > > when trading in old computers it's a good idea to do some research and > > have some idea what the scope of possible configurations is, so that > > if you are buying you will have some idea what sort of questions to > > ask to find out just what the seller is selling. Or if you are > > selling, so you will have some idea of what you are selling. > > > > Don't count on the seller knowing what's important to you, or even > > where what he's got fits in that scope of configurations -- he may > > not. Even if he's another computer collector and/or familiar with > > that manufacturer's equipment, he may not know -- the sorts of > > questions I read (and even some of those I write) tell me that most of > > us have a lot to learn about these old machines, and none of us know > > everything about all of them. > > > > And even with all that in mind, expect some surprises! > > > > For example, a while back I bought a couple of HP 9825s from some guy > > in Southern California. Looking at the HP Calculator Museum web pages > > and some of my old HP test/measurement catalogs, I expected that one > > of them (the 9825B I think) would have a "computer" keyboard with > > full-travel keys. I didn't bother asking. Surprise, when it arrived > > both had the older clicky desktop-calculator keyboard of the 9825A. I > > pointed this out to the seller and he didn't know, though he has seen > > 9825s with the full-travel keys. Maybe it was an A that got > > field-upgraded to a B? We don't know, and I didn't really see any > > point in getting bent out of shape about it -- I got what I wanted, > > learned something, and now I have a good excuse to get another one! > > > > -Frank McConnell > > -- > ======================================================== > Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK > Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) > please visit my website at: > ======================================================== -- ___________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |___________________________________________________| | \____________________________________________________\| From jrice at texoma.net Sat Apr 11 22:38:47 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <3530171D.DEACEB26@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <35303747.E9068582@texoma.net> Enrico, I usually lurk and don't have much too say so I think that I belong to the "silent majority", but you have been bitching about this piddly assed trade for a year now. GET A FUCKING LIFE!!!!!! Please "leave us to our destiny" and either shut up or get off the damned list! James Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > BIG SNIP > But as I said before I am more upset by conmans and even more by conmans' > helpers. I would have thought that after I mentioned the problem I should have > had messages of simpathy not insults and offences. They don't hurt me alone > but they typify the senders and generally lower the tone and the style of this > (and other) mailing lists and newsgroups. I am surprised by these people > reactions and I only hope that there is a "silent majority" who does not speak > but disapproves them and this is the only reason that keeps me from leaving > conmans and their helpers to their destiny by leaving this list. > > Ciao > > enrico > From mor at crl.com Sat Apr 11 22:30:13 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) References: <199804102140.AA10780@world.std.com> <353011DC.700902FA@crl.com> <35302839.55DFB2F6@rain.org> Message-ID: <35303545.18203F60@crl.com> Marvin wrote: > > Greg Troutman wrote: > > > No, Arcnet is a star topology, polling system, pretty similar to > > token-ring. > > I think you will find that Arcnet was not just star topology. Most of the > machines I set up were just daisy chained with terminators on both ends. I > still have an Arcnet hub but found that daisy chaining was a lot simpler. Yes, there were several topologies that could be built. All my experience had been with the SMC line of hubs and I forgot about the others. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From donm at cts.com Sat Apr 11 23:59:09 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <353011DC.700902FA@crl.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > < I seem to remember early Ethernet interface VAX quad cards > > < being around 1.5Mbps... not sure if it was think ether, vampire > > < tap stuff... This would have been before ethernet was turned > > < into a 'standard.' One guy I know has one of these hanging > > < from his wall along with some physical core for a PDP 11/44. I > > < was too young to have used to implemented this stuff, so I > > < can't claim to have actually _used_ such hardware. > > > > 802.. eithernet was always 10mbit/s. The 1.5mhz stuff was arcnet. They > > are similar in that they are both bus topology using CSMA/CD arbitration. > > No, Arcnet is a star topology, polling system, pretty similar to > token-ring. The original was a star topology, but later on there was also a bus topology. - don > -- > mor@crl.com > http://www.crl.com/~mor/ > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From yowza at yowza.com Sun Apr 12 00:26:22 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: BYTE Magazine Master Index? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to a nice professor who cleaned out his office, I've filled out my collection of BYTE mags pretty well. I was wondering if anybody knew of a complete (online?) index of all the BYTE mags. Also, I've been thinking about getting the BYTE archive CD-ROM (which, unfortunately, only goes back to 1990). I noticed that BYTE sells this on a subscription basis -- does anybody have an out-of-date CD-ROM they'd like to get rid of? Thanks, Doug From dastar at wco.com Sun Apr 12 01:17:50 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings In-Reply-To: <199804112224.SAA19001@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > But how do we discourage that from happening, while at the same time > trying to divert machinery from the acid-bath? The only argument > that recyclers seem likely to listen to is about making money. But > each time that argument gets used, it nudges us toward the day when > all of our old computers lie decaying in display cabinets of the > affluent, rather than living and working happily in our own basements. My suggestion is to do what I do: offer the scrapper some amount (say 10%) over scrap value. Don't let on to them that the machines may be worth something to a collector. That's irrelevant and only serves to hurt your chances of saving the good stuff from the melting pot. All they should know is that you will pay them some amount over scrap value to make it worth their while to deal with you. This is what I did with a local scrapper. I told him what my interest is in them and that I am interested in preserving them for historical purposes. When he asked what I would be willing to pay, I told him at least scrap value, or whatever will make it worth your while and gave him my card. He said he rarely if ever gets any computers but if he did he would call me. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From dastar at wco.com Sun Apr 12 01:29:20 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole In-Reply-To: <35301277.7D4C4EB1@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > 1) he sent the wrong computer ad I CLEARLY SPECIFIED that I wanted the VERY > FIRST TRS-80 model ever made and he knows this and that is why he is so > vehement in his replies. Well, gee, that says a lot. Did you mean you wanted the first one off the assembly line? Or the first prototype itself? Simply saying you want the very first particular make of a computer is not very concise. I could say I wanted the very first Apple ][ but that could mean anything from the original 4K model with manual start ROMs or the later 48K version upgraded with the autostart ROMs. In this case, it is your fault for not precisely stating what you wanted. Cord can't read your mind. > He is a CONMAN and he knows it and that is why he is refusing to discuss the > matter. I even offered to pay again to dispatch for the right computer as it > would be uneconomical for me and for him to return both the computers back to > the source (I spend more than £40.00 to send mine). Look, if this did happen, the best you can do is simply post a SINGLE message stating your case and LEAVE IT AT THAT. Don't expect everyone to be all up and arms and indignant over it for you. There's no point in staging a mock trial over it. Let both sides tell their story and then if you have any further dispute, take it to e-mail. We don't really care. We're intelligent enough to make our own decisions about the allegations and the rebuttal. > There you are. I hope I have explained myself. This is not a private matter > anymore: if he is so determined to con somebody who, he thinks that being so Yes, it is and has always been a private matter. Thanks for informing us of a possible danger. Duely noted. Now please deal with it in private where it belongs. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From yowza at yowza.com Sun Apr 12 01:51:04 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: BYTE Magazine Master Index? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmm, I accidentally stumbled upon a partial index at: http://unix.hensa.ac.uk/ftp/mirrors/uunet/published/byte/indexes/ It contains info about articles published from 1986 - 1990. Byte's web site has 1994 on. This was the only hit I got when looking for information about a portable called the "Agilis System". Does anybody know if this system was actually produced -- I can't find anything about it beyond the BYTE article (Aug 1989). -- Doug From engine at chac.org Sun Apr 12 02:12:13 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: BYTE Magazine Master Index? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980412001213.00f71330@pop.batnet.com> At 01:51 4/12/98 -0500, Doug of Yowza wrote: >This was the only hit I got when looking for information about a portable >called the "Agilis System". Does anybody know if this system was actually >produced -- I can't find anything about it beyond the BYTE article (Aug >1989). If we're talking about the thing that was a bunch of wedge-shaped pieces that latched together, there were prototypes -- and I saw one -- but there were no production computers AFAIK. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 12 03:15:38 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: my objection to recent postings References: Message-ID: <3530782A.61B2BF53@bbtel.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > My suggestion is to do what I do: offer the scrapper some amount (say 10%) > over scrap value. Don't let on to them that the machines may be worth > something to a collector. That's irrelevant and only serves to hurt your > chances of saving the good stuff from the melting pot. All they should > know is that you will pay them some amount over scrap value to make it > worth their while to deal with you. This is what I did with a local > scrapper. I told him what my interest is in them and that I am interested > in preserving them for historical purposes. When he asked what I would be > willing to pay, I told him at least scrap value, or whatever will make it > worth your while and gave him my card. He said he rarely if ever gets any > computers but if he did he would call me. That's how I found the Altair faceplate one day. I also reminded them of the labor saved on their part by not having to pull them apart to separate the metals and junk and have to find a dump for the unusable excesses. They seemed good with the idea but also noted that I had to check once a week or whatever was set aside would go to the great beyond.... I have yet to get anything from there yet, but will let everyone know when I get someothing of value. I normally don't have the room for items that are "conversation peices" only machines I can actually put to use in the personal market. There's no way I could ahve a System 36 in my house! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Sun Apr 12 02:27:26 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: BYTE Magazine Master Index? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980412001213.00f71330@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Kip Crosby wrote: > If we're talking about the thing that was a bunch of wedge-shaped pieces > that latched together, there were prototypes -- and I saw one -- but there > were no production computers AFAIK. That's too bad -- probably the proposed $12K price tag that killed it. It's hard to imagine a company better positioned to push the envelope (Agilis was apparently comprised of top guys from GRiD, NeXT, and Convergent Technologies, probably the three most innovative companies of their time). -- Doug From ecloud at bigfoot.com Sun Apr 12 03:09:37 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s References: <000c01bd6415$e4a2b080$73010bce@fauradon> Message-ID: <353076C1.CE2F9DB4@bigfoot.com> John Rollins wrote: > Now that I think about it... Where does one find info on designing ISA(or > MCA, or PCI, or NuBus, or...) boards? From the looks of most boards, the > actual hardware isn't that hard(unless you consider such fine wiring or PCB > design difficult like I do), it's programming something to get it to > work(which I suppose is pretty easy if you're a good programmer and know > what you're doing, also something I'm not...). I wouldn't be surprised if the prototyping cards came with at least a pinout, maybe more. Anyhow you could find one on the web, or one of the many PC hardware reference books. The IBM PC Technical Reference manual was useful as I recall, if you can find one of those. As for programming, you just need a C compiler that has low-level instructions available, like for doing I/O port ins and outs. Interrupt handlers are more difficult to write than simple polling routines. If OTOH the card is memory-mapped rather than I/O based it's a simple matter of creating a pointer to the beginning of the occupied space and then using offsets from there, and you will be reading and writing "memory" locations on your board just as if it was main memory. This kind of thing should be easy in both DOS and Linux. I don't have a lot of experience yet, but I'm going to try some experiments with a digital data acquisition card. It takes up a couple I/O ports, and you can read the port to check status on the digital inputs, or write to another port to change the state of the digital outputs. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Apr 12 03:41:12 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole Message-ID: <005701bd65ee$efe620a0$9d67bcc1@hotze> >I am much more bothered by conmans (read my other reply here). I collect for >the historical inportance and for the history of design of old electronics and >for what they meant in the lives of millions of persons. I don't even care if >something is working or not. It is going to end up behing glass anyway. I I find you sick. Very sick. Keep computers functional, working, cosmetics should come second. I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE somewhere for you. >can't possibly USE the more than 140 historical computer I have in my YES YOU COULD. >collection and don't even switch them on. I don't collect them for making them >work but to display them and help to teach children and people about their >importance in the hsitory of humanity. The appearance is (nearly) everything >to me and so a mumeric keypad where it should not be is a GREAT bother to me. So what the hell are you bitching about? You got what you asked for, and now, it's not a great bother to you. So what the %$&( if it's got a numeric keypad? It's not a GREAT bother to you, but you've been a GREAT bother to Cord and everyone else on the list. Tim D. Hotze From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Apr 12 07:15:23 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <005701bd65ee$efe620a0$9d67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3530B05A.B87285DC@ndirect.co.uk> Is this a promise? enrico Hotze wrote: I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE > somewhere for you. > Tim D. Hotze -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Apr 12 06:24:48 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole Message-ID: <002201bd6605$9cd4bfe0$586fbcc1@hotze> I promise that we CAN. I didn't say anything about willing to. However, should I come across one, you'll be the first to know. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Enrico Tedeschi To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Asshole >Is this a promise? > >enrico > >Hotze wrote: > I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE >> somewhere for you. > >> Tim D. Hotze > >-- >======================================================== >Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK >Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) >please visit my website at: >======================================================== > > From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Apr 12 07:33:49 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup Message-ID: <001e01bd660f$cde93fc0$6521a7cd@bothell> On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:06:32 +0300, "Hotze" wrote: >>Yeah, but could such a thing be done on Linux/UNIX OS's? I'm guessing that {snip} I'm sure that Microsoft used NT for their implementation, but aren't there Un*x-based NNTP servers available?? I think that there is a post in today's digest about it. Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sun Apr 12 08:47:09 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup In-Reply-To: <001e01bd660f$cde93fc0$6521a7cd@bothell> from "Richard A. Cini" at Apr 12, 98 08:33:49 am Message-ID: <199804121347.JAA06642@shell.monmouth.com> > > On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:06:32 +0300, "Hotze" wrote: > > > >>Yeah, but could such a thing be done on Linux/UNIX OS's? I'm guessing > that > {snip} > > I'm sure that Microsoft used NT for their implementation, but aren't > there Un*x-based NNTP servers available?? I think that there is a post in > today's digest about it. > > Rich Cini/WUGNET > (remove nospam_ to use) > ClubWin! Charter Member (6) > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > ============================================ > The original nntp servers were on Unix. Cnews and Bnews with the Stan Barbor's nntp and INN for example. Bill From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Apr 12 07:28:45 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <002201bd6605$9cd4bfe0$586fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3530B37B.D00B5674@ndirect.co.uk> You did not say CAN you said COULD and that in my undertanding is an offer. Otherwise blame it on my bad English understanding... Thank you enrico Hotze wrote: > > I promise that we CAN. I didn't say anything about willing to. However, > should I come across one, you'll be the first to know. > Tim D. Hotze > -----Original Message----- > From: Enrico Tedeschi > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 2:22 PM > Subject: Re: Asshole > > >Is this a promise? > > > >enrico > > > >Hotze wrote: > > I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE > >> somewhere for you. > > > >> Tim D. Hotze > > > >-- > >======================================================== > >Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK > >Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) > >please visit my website at: > >======================================================== > > > > -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Apr 12 11:37:14 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <002201bd6605$9cd4bfe0$586fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3530EDAE.F549F22A@ndirect.co.uk> You did not say CAN but you said COULD and that, in my bad understanding of the English language, is an offer. But I am not going to argue about that and I gladly accept your kind offer now. Thank you. Hoping to hear from you soon I am Yours sincerely enrico Hotze wrote: > > I promise that we CAN. I didn't say anything about willing to. However, > should I come across one, you'll be the first to know. > Tim D. Hotze > -----Original Message----- > From: Enrico Tedeschi > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 2:22 PM > Subject: Re: Asshole > > >Is this a promise? > > > >enrico > > > >Hotze wrote: > > I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE > >> somewhere for you. > > > >> Tim D. Hotze > > From Mzthompson at aol.com Sun Apr 12 11:15:12 1998 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:19 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? Message-ID: <1b8d2bcb.3530e892@aol.com> >> From: "Jeff Kaneko" > >> Guys: >> >> Afer looking at a number of responses, Uncle Roger's position >> seems the most logical to me (besides, one other person suggested >> this also). I think I'll buy that parts to build this, and just keep >> it until needed. >> >> Building it won't be a priority, though. The MP-A wasn't exactly the >> best SS-50 CPU available. I have a NOS Thomas Instruments Super CPU, >> that I've wanted to build for years. Compared with other S-50 boards >> of that era, it had alot of cool features. I am working on getting a >> couple of scarce parts for its companion video board. >> >> Jeff From: Bill Yakowenko >One other thing, before soldering stuff onto that board, make a copy >of it. (Do photocopiers make decent prints of bare boards?) Once >a board has chips soldered onto it, it can be a pain to figure out >which things connect to what. Having a bare-board print could help >a lot in reverse-engineering the schematic (although I suspect there >are still MP-A schematics to be had out there). And who knows, you >might someday want to clone that board. > > Cheers, > Bill. There are not only schematics, but assembly instructions and a three color print showing the top traces in red, bottom traces in blue, and component placement in black. I picked an MP-Ab bare board and documentation at a hamfest a long time ago and never used it having gone with Percom's SBC/9 CPU board and Percom's Electric Window video board. If anybody absolutely needs copies of the docs, then I will see what I can do. Mike From marvin at rain.org Sun Apr 12 11:25:54 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole References: <005701bd65ee$efe620a0$9d67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3530EB12.E5BDB8DA@rain.org> Enrico wrote: > I collect for > >the historical inportance and for the history of design of old > electronics > and > >for what they meant in the lives of millions of persons. I don't even > care > if > >something is working or not. It is going to end up behing glass anyway. Hotze wrote: > I find you sick. Very sick. Keep computers functional, working, cosmetics > > should come second. I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE > somewhere for you. Well, I collect for the same reasons as Enrico and my collection is somewhere over 300 comupters. It would be wonderful to make sure they are all working and use them on a regular basis but that is not even remotely feasible to say the least. We all have different reasons for collecting and mine are 1) to save them for their historical importance, 2) save them from the scrap yard, and 3) have fun playing and repairing them as time permits (not very often!) From marvin at rain.org Sun Apr 12 11:33:34 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? References: <199804071715.MAA12548@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <3530ECDE.10EC9BD3@rain.org> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > Guys: > > Ok, I'm putting this up, and looking for opinions: > > I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50 > 6800 CPU available, and only the second 6800 CPU board of any stripe > available from anyone AFAIK (Moto was first, of course). > > Here's the wrinkle: It's an unbuilt, BARE board. Given the somewhat > historic nature of this article, what would you do? Build it as > originally designed (most of the parts are still available), or > leave the board blank, as is? I have several unbuilt boards including an IMSAI SIO and the National SCMP microprocessor evaluation kits. For my part, I have no intention of ever building them since I view them as a part of history. I tried about a year ago to get an unbuilt Heatkit H?? computer that was designed to go into (I think) an H19? terminal. He decided to allow his class to build it but we all have different reasons for doing things. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Apr 12 11:38:22 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-12 07:24:27 EDT, you write: << >Hotze wrote: > I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE >> somewhere for you. > >> Tim D. Hotze >> well, i have a model 1 with a keypad that i could take a hacksaw to... david From marvin at rain.org Sun Apr 12 11:39:28 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: European computers References: <002201bd6605$9cd4bfe0$586fbcc1@hotze> <3530EDAE.F549F22A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <3530EE40.C04E9487@rain.org> There is a possibility that I may be going over to Hungary in late August and early September. Does anyone have any idea of what early computers I might find/look for over there and what the costs might be? Thanks. Marvin P.S. For anyone that is interested, see http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/r_floesser/wc1998.htm for why I would be going. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 12 09:14:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole In-Reply-To: <3530171D.DEACEB26@ndirect.co.uk> from "Enrico Tedeschi" at Apr 12, 98 01:21:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4474 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980412/516d2e9f/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 12 12:16:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole<---drop this too! Message-ID: <199804121716.AA12904@world.std.com> <> I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50 OK, I give up. What is the worls is NOS? From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Apr 12 13:36:27 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: More Northstar Assistance Requested In-Reply-To: <199804121729.AA17653@world.std.com> Message-ID: All righty then, thanks to the kind help of Allison, the Northstar will now attempt to boot off a drive set to DS0. The CPU's POJ address is now set the Northstar MDS-AD3 controller card. On boot, it goes read-read-read, read-read-read, read-read-read and gives up. Doug Coward had sent me an NSDOS boot diskette, which I'm trying to boot, and something doesn't seem happy. Is there any reason I couldn't use the MPI-52 drive I'm trying to use? Is there any reason I shouldn't try a known-good Shugart SA400? I also tried a half-height 360k floppy drive for giggles with the same result. Does anyone have boot diskettes for CP/M for this machine? Can anyone offer advice or assistance? In short, HELP! =-) Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Apr 12 12:42:43 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole<---drop this too! Message-ID: <003a01bd663a$7da8e940$ee67bcc1@hotze> >First stop it. Second, if you didn't understand it I believe the comment >was sarcastic IE: we could find you a trs-80 case but since you've been >such a pain it has become highly unlikely. Kind of right. I was saying that if it was REALLY NEEDED and you couldn't ignore a row of 5x4 keys or so on your TRS-80, that there's probably someone who has either a spare case, or a will to trade their keypad-less TRS for yours. >There was no offer to supply one and there was no agreement save for you >trying to instigate one. Exactly. However, seeing as it will make a fellow collector happy, should I stumble across the model you mention, I'll tell you, and probably pay for half or more of the shipping. >A trs-80 with a keypad (one of the earliest options!) is historically >valid. Also historically valid was lower case mod, 2x processor speed up >and several different ones applied to the cassette read. This is an >athoritive statment as I was in the employ for TANDY from 1976 through >1979 and did consulting for another year after that. Exactly. For instance, I'm getting a A2+ from Jeff Kaneko. At first, I just knew that I was getting a II+. That was it. Since then, I've been deligeted to find that it's 64K, has a DA/AD converter, serial cards, a Pocket Rocket language card, etc. installed. I asked for an Apple II+. I'm getting one. Sometimes, it's better than what you wanted, sometimes it's worse, sometimes it's just different. >If you say you wanted the "first trs80" you should have specified one >that must have the 170069A PWB, and no mods/option installed. That >would have gotten you a 4k L1 machine in the first production series >(under serial number 20,000 or so). You would have had to clarify if >serial number greater than 0 or 1 was acceptable. Your lack of >knowledge of RADIO SHACK computers and how they were sold from >introduction is your loss. As well as your apparant lack of flexability, and poor eMail writing skills. In any case, let us "BAD PEOPLE" who "don't care if we've got a conman on our hands" be bad people with a conman on our hands and STOP BITCHING ABOUT IT!!! Listen, you didn't get what you wanted. You did get what you asked for. Cord's been on this list a LOT longer than you have. If we annoy you, then unsubscribe. END OF STORY. Tim D. Hotze From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Apr 12 12:43:53 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Please -- Knock it off! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980412104353.00e424a0@mail.jps.net> I'm only going to say this once. I will make no replies to this post outside of private E-mail, and I will accept no arguments from those involved in the current flame-war that even HINT at attempted justification for their cluttering of the list. I have changed receipt of CLASSICCMP to 'ack' (non-digest) on my end so that I may easily killfile/filter the entire childish flame-war polluting this list, which the perpetrators of seem unwilling to take to private E-mail as should have happened when the thing first lit up. I am tired of reading about who's right, who's wrong, who's a con-artist and who's not, and who's doing what to whom and for how much. I am here for one purpose; to share knowledge of old hardware and software, specifically DECish stuff. Others, I'm going to assume, are here for the purpose of sharing knowledge of the systems they have interest in. I do not believe that anyone is here to share a flame-war. If the flame-war traffic continues in the form of list postings, I will begin filtering by author rather than by subject thread. This could cause me to miss something I value, or to fail to respond to a question that I could answer, but at this point I feel that risk is justified. Read my typing. TAKE YOUR STUPID FLAME-WAR TO E-MAIL! PLEASE! Thank you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mor at crl.com Sun Apr 12 12:18:18 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? References: <199804121729.AA17653@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3530F75A.6DB12EEE@crl.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > <> I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50 > > OK, I give up. What is the worls is NOS? I think he means "New Old Stock". It's just lingo for something out of production, but still in new, never-used condition. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Sun Apr 12 14:14:19 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: This week is the week! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980412104353.00e424a0@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: Well, I've been sweating my a$$ off today taking totally useless junk (for example, a PC clone case that someone backed a car over at a hamfest) (and, no, it wasn't me) =-) to the dumpster to make space so I can move the PDP-11/84 and 11/34 down to the basement this week. Keep in mind these machines are sitting between me and the PDP-8i's in the garage so I have to move them first. I have to move a pretty loaded 11/34, an 11/84, a TU-80, an RA-81, an RK05j and an RK05f and related power supplies and racks! Woo hoo! I'm excited! Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Apr 12 14:41:21 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole References: Message-ID: <353118CE.1DFAD912@ndirect.co.uk> Thank you for your comments. There is always something to learn from anybody averywhere. However I notice that you failed to comment on the fact that the conman did not send his parcel until after about THREE MONTHS after I sent mine and even using my packing for it (and even that took some convincing from my part). Perhaps this is an argument too difficult to defend and by the way, why are you defending one side without knowing all the facts? Regards enrico Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > > > 1) he sent the wrong computer ad I CLEARLY SPECIFIED that I wanted the VERY > > FIRST TRS-80 model ever made and he knows this and that is why he is so > > vehement in his replies. > > Well, gee, that says a lot. Did you mean you wanted the first one off the > assembly line? Or the first prototype itself? Simply saying you want the > very first particular make of a computer is not very concise. I could say > I wanted the very first Apple ][ but that could mean anything from the > original 4K model with manual start ROMs or the later 48K version upgraded > with the autostart ROMs. In this case, it is your fault for not precisely > stating what you wanted. Cord can't read your mind. > > > He is a CONMAN and he knows it and that is why he is refusing to discuss the > > matter. I even offered to pay again to dispatch for the right computer as it > > would be uneconomical for me and for him to return both the computers back to > > the source (I spend more than ?40.00 to send mine). > > Look, if this did happen, the best you can do is simply post a SINGLE > message stating your case and LEAVE IT AT THAT. Don't expect everyone to > be all up and arms and indignant over it for you. There's no point in > staging a mock trial over it. Let both sides tell their story and then if > you have any further dispute, take it to e-mail. We don't really care. > We're intelligent enough to make our own decisions about the allegations > and the rebuttal. > > > There you are. I hope I have explained myself. This is not a private matter > > anymore: if he is so determined to con somebody who, he thinks that being so > > Yes, it is and has always been a private matter. Thanks for informing us > of a possible danger. Duely noted. Now please deal with it in private > where it belongs. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/08/98] -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Apr 12 14:47:09 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: European computers References: <002201bd6605$9cd4bfe0$586fbcc1@hotze> <3530EDAE.F549F22A@ndirect.co.uk> <3530EE40.C04E9487@rain.org> Message-ID: <35311A2A.6C3444E@ndirect.co.uk> I think that they are into Sinclair Spectrums and related clones. it is said that there are still firms building Spectrum clones in Russia that find their way into Hungary. Let us know what you find. Ciao enrico Marvin wrote: > > There is a possibility that I may be going over to Hungary in late August > and early September. Does anyone have any idea of what early computers I > might find/look for over there and what the costs might be? Thanks. > > Marvin > > P.S. For anyone that is interested, see > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/r_floesser/wc1998.htm for why I > would be going. -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Apr 12 14:59:12 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole<---drop this too! References: <003a01bd663a$7da8e940$ee67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <35311CFC.436CB59A@ndirect.co.uk> We all live on conventions. When I tell somebody to switch the light off I don't have to trell him/her that I want the light of the roon I am in to be switched off and that he has to wlak towards the lgiht switch and that he/she has to flick the witch on side or another. I just rely on past experience and conventions and I expect the other person to behave in a conventional manner. When I say that I waould like the very first model of a manufactured product I, by convention, mean that I would like a sample of the first model which came out (not a prototype), of the first series (not an upgraded and modified one) etc. I have no doubts about the historical importance of a sreis one TRS-80 with numeric keyboard. It is simply what I wan NOT looking for. Anyway the matter in contest in NOT just that I have not got what I asked and was promised but that the conman did not send it than about TRHEE MONTHS later than I send my side of the deal (while swearing that he had sent it but unfortunately he could not find the TWO receipts for it) and that even that took some help from the keeper of this list to achieve. He (the conman) probably relyied on the assumption that being so far away he could could get away with it without much trouble. I never suggested that he would try this locally as usually this kind of people are cowards and they are driven by oppurtunistic motives and reasons. Regards enrico Hotze wrote: > > >First stop it. Second, if you didn't understand it I believe the comment > >was sarcastic IE: we could find you a trs-80 case but since you've been > >such a pain it has become highly unlikely. > Kind of right. I was saying that if it was REALLY NEEDED and you couldn't > ignore a row of 5x4 keys or so on your TRS-80, that there's probably someone > who has either a spare case, or a will to trade their keypad-less TRS for > yours. > >There was no offer to supply one and there was no agreement save for you > >trying to instigate one. > Exactly. However, seeing as it will make a fellow collector happy, should I > stumble across the model you mention, I'll tell you, and probably pay for > half or more of the shipping. > >A trs-80 with a keypad (one of the earliest options!) is historically > >valid. Also historically valid was lower case mod, 2x processor speed up > >and several different ones applied to the cassette read. This is an > >athoritive statment as I was in the employ for TANDY from 1976 through > >1979 and did consulting for another year after that. > Exactly. For instance, I'm getting a A2+ from Jeff Kaneko. At first, I > just knew that I was getting a II+. That was it. Since then, I've been > deligeted to find that it's 64K, has a DA/AD converter, serial cards, a > Pocket Rocket language card, etc. installed. I asked for an Apple II+. I'm > getting one. Sometimes, it's better than what you wanted, sometimes it's > worse, sometimes it's just different. > >If you say you wanted the "first trs80" you should have specified one > >that must have the 170069A PWB, and no mods/option installed. That > >would have gotten you a 4k L1 machine in the first production series > >(under serial number 20,000 or so). You would have had to clarify if > >serial number greater than 0 or 1 was acceptable. Your lack of > >knowledge of RADIO SHACK computers and how they were sold from > >introduction is your loss. > As well as your apparant lack of flexability, and poor eMail writing skills. > In any case, let us "BAD PEOPLE" who "don't care if we've got a conman > on our hands" be bad people with a conman on our hands and STOP BITCHING > ABOUT IT!!! Listen, you didn't get what you wanted. You did get what you > asked for. Cord's been on this list a LOT longer than you have. If we > annoy you, then unsubscribe. END OF STORY. > Tim D. Hotze -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Apr 12 15:27:58 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole<---drop this too! References: <003a01bd663a$7da8e940$ee67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <353123B8.3899CDC@ndirect.co.uk> It is this attitude (like yours) that brought the matter (unnecessarely) to this point. If you would have not answered with all this arrogance and aggressivity, the matter would have been finished a long time ago. I think we all would expect all the subscribers to this list (and the other lists as well) to conduct themselves in a civilized and honourable way instead of insulting, offending and swearing to someone who might be wrong but who is genuinely asking for help. What would you have said if I did behave like the conman did? Are you sure you are not defending a lost cause or, at least, to be superficial in your assumptions? Regards enrico Hotze wrote: > > >First stop it. Second, if you didn't understand it I believe the comment > >was sarcastic IE: we could find you a trs-80 case but since you've been > >such a pain it has become highly unlikely. > Kind of right. I was saying that if it was REALLY NEEDED and you couldn't > ignore a row of 5x4 keys or so on your TRS-80, that there's probably someone > who has either a spare case, or a will to trade their keypad-less TRS for > yours. > >There was no offer to supply one and there was no agreement save for you > >trying to instigate one. > Exactly. However, seeing as it will make a fellow collector happy, should I > stumble across the model you mention, I'll tell you, and probably pay for > half or more of the shipping. > >A trs-80 with a keypad (one of the earliest options!) is historically > >valid. Also historically valid was lower case mod, 2x processor speed up > >and several different ones applied to the cassette read. This is an > >athoritive statment as I was in the employ for TANDY from 1976 through > >1979 and did consulting for another year after that. > Exactly. For instance, I'm getting a A2+ from Jeff Kaneko. At first, I > just knew that I was getting a II+. That was it. Since then, I've been > deligeted to find that it's 64K, has a DA/AD converter, serial cards, a > Pocket Rocket language card, etc. installed. I asked for an Apple II+. I'm > getting one. Sometimes, it's better than what you wanted, sometimes it's > worse, sometimes it's just different. > >If you say you wanted the "first trs80" you should have specified one > >that must have the 170069A PWB, and no mods/option installed. That > >would have gotten you a 4k L1 machine in the first production series > >(under serial number 20,000 or so). You would have had to clarify if > >serial number greater than 0 or 1 was acceptable. Your lack of > >knowledge of RADIO SHACK computers and how they were sold from > >introduction is your loss. > As well as your apparant lack of flexability, and poor eMail writing skills. > In any case, let us "BAD PEOPLE" who "don't care if we've got a conman > on our hands" be bad people with a conman on our hands and STOP BITCHING > ABOUT IT!!! Listen, you didn't get what you wanted. You did get what you > asked for. Cord's been on this list a LOT longer than you have. If we > annoy you, then unsubscribe. END OF STORY. > Tim D. Hotze -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 12 15:37:04 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole <- Solution In-Reply-To: <353118CE.1DFAD912@ndirect.co.uk> References: Message-ID: It seems to me that there is a Historical solution for this problem, that I gather worked very well in the far distant past. Enrico has become SUCH a pain, and it seems like most of the traffic of late is a result of his insistence not to let this drop. While he may or may not have a valid problem, I no longer care, and based on the way he's acting I would suspect the problem is on his end. Because of all of this I'd like to propose a rather drastic solution Shun Him! (in other words ignore him totally) As far as I'm concerned from this point onward Enrico does not exist. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 12 14:38:06 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: NOS Bare Boards: What to do? Message-ID: <199804121938.AA18767@world.std.com> <> <> I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50 <> <> OK, I give up. What is the worls is NOS? < (message from Sam Ismail on Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:16:04 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <199804122115.RAA04886@mr-gateway.internal.net> I've been putting off my response to this message because I was a little annoyed and didn't want to toss out a flame which could erupt into another list war. I've calmed down now and simply want to go over those points which I consider salient, without writing a flame-bait reply. > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Re: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) > > > This is hopefully the last public post I'll (have to) make about this > tired topic. I just wish people would have the intelligence to realize > the error of insisting on posting non-relevant material to this > discussion, but it just seems like a lost cause. > > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > > Please stop trying to bully people around on the list, Sam. > > First of all, next time post this message privately where it belongs. > This also goes for any replies to this message (please?) Sam, since you wrote the first message publicly, I replied in public. If you're going to post a flame, even a 'Stay on topic' flame - in public - expect public replies. Let me simply state that I didn't consider Tim Hotze's message noise, but respectable signal - especially since he had the courtesy to note the message as possibly off topic. And hell, the thread migrated to an interesting on charter discussion anyway. [snip] > > > For the last few days you've been acting like you run the show > > again. Please stop. Please treat the list members like the > > adults they are, especially long standing members like Tim. Even > > Enrico, who I admit has annoyed me as well, deserves better > > treatment. You have the option to delete and filter... use it > > (see man procmail). > > If wanting to preserve this list for what it is rather than have it > descend into a murky pool of nonsense that has nothing to do with what we > joined it for, then yeah, I'm guilty of that. As for treating people like > adults, Tim is 12. Enough said about that. Basically though, if people > who want to be a part of this list will have the courtesy, as adults, to > take care that this discussion stays within its intended bounds, their > courtesy will be returned in kind. That's all. Very simple. I want to pay special attention to this point. I had _no_ idea Tim is twelve, but honestly, I don't think it matters one bit. I stand by what I wrote before, be he twelve or of legal age; he's written more signal than noise on the group and deserves to be treated as such. Given that the 'other' current flame war going on is being perpetuated by 'adults' in the legal sense, I'll take Tims' occasional off topic posts anyday over that garbage. And again, let me suggest procmail as a filtering agent. I've filtered everything out Enrico posts and find it quite refreshing. If you find the stuff Tim writes that disturbing, why not just filter it out? It saves us all from reading those angry 'keep on topic!' posts, and in general limits the bad feelings all around. [snip] --jmg ps - I've tried to write this with diplomacy in mind. If anyone has something _angry_ to say, please just email me personally. Otherwise, use your judgement. From maynard at jmg.com Sun Apr 12 16:21:17 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: PDP11 MMU / assembly language tutorial -- THANK YOU! Message-ID: <199804122121.RAA04902@mr-gateway.internal.net> Folks, I'm still digesting all the responces from Allison, Tony, and Pete... but I wanted to thank you guys for satiating my curiosity. I'm clueless, but not thankless. :-) --jmg From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 12 14:57:01 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: ESDI hard drives Message-ID: <19980412195701.2485.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anyone have an ESDI hard drive for a PS/2 Model 70? I have a 60, but want to replace it with a 120 (the other size the PS/2 came with; I don't want to risk having an incompatible hard drive). I don't know if others are compatible. However, this is a wide single ribbon connector. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sun Apr 12 17:08:48 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: ESDI hard drives In-Reply-To: <19980412195701.2485.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980412150848.007e3180@wingate> At 12:57 PM 4/12/98 PDT, you wrote: >Does anyone have an ESDI hard drive for a PS/2 Model 70? I have a >60, but want to replace it with a 120 (the other size the PS/2 came >with; I don't want to risk having an incompatible hard drive). I >don't know if others are compatible. However, this is a wide single >ribbon connector. > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > PC Assist shows two drives compatible drives, the 60 and 120MB, both ESDI Direct Bus Attach, MFM encoded. This applies to models A61, A21, B61, B21. I wonder though if there aren't other ESDIs out there that will work as long as they're DBA? You might check with MicroHaus (sp?) to see if they have any larger cpacity NOS drives that will work. Just a shot in the dark. -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Apr 12 16:13:02 1998 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (Enrico Tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole <- Solution References: Message-ID: <35312E46.230C0DB9@ndirect.co.uk> OK, as it looks like that anything I say is taken the wrong way, how about asking the keeper of this list Mr.Bill Withson? I kept him informed all along and he has witnessed what happened. Ask him. If he a man of honour (and I believe he is) he will tell you, even if he might have to use some restrain and discretion seeing the position he is in. You might have to go private on this (if you care). Otherwise lets leave it at that. Thank you for your interest. Regards enrico Zane H. Healy wrote: > > It seems to me that there is a Historical solution for this problem, that I > gather worked very well in the far distant past. > > Enrico has become SUCH a pain, and it seems like most of the traffic of > late is a result of his insistence not to let this drop. While he may or > may not have a valid problem, I no longer care, and based on the way he's > acting I would suspect the problem is on his end. Because of all of this > I'd like to propose a rather drastic solution > > Shun Him! (in other words ignore him totally) > > As far as I'm concerned from this point onward Enrico does not exist. > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | -- ======================================================== Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) please visit my website at: ======================================================== From archive at navix.net Sun Apr 12 15:56:53 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole<---drop this too! References: <003a01bd663a$7da8e940$ee67bcc1@hotze> <35311CFC.436CB59A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <35312A94.39E3BF32@navix.net> The below is very untrue.... again, I don't care. Enrico, if you would like me to try to help you further, my offer is still open. It's just.... well, what can I do. You have turned down all my offers to try to help the situation. And, I don't have a sample of the first TRS-80 made. Come on.... how much more of this do we all have to take?!?!!? Cord "ConMan" Coslor Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > We all live on conventions. When I tell somebody to switch the light off I > don't have to trell him/her that I want the light of the roon I am in to be > switched off and that he has to wlak towards the lgiht switch and that he/she > has to flick the witch on side or another. I just rely on past experience and > conventions and I expect the other person to behave in a conventional manner. > > When I say that I waould like the very first model of a manufactured product > I, by convention, mean that I would like a sample of the first model which > came out (not a prototype), of the first series (not an upgraded and modified > one) etc. I have no doubts about the historical importance of a sreis one > TRS-80 with numeric keyboard. It is simply what I wan NOT looking for. > > Anyway the matter in contest in NOT just that I have not got what I asked and > was promised but that the conman did not send it than about TRHEE MONTHS later > than I send my side of the deal (while swearing that he had sent it but > unfortunately he could not find the TWO receipts for it) and that even that > took some help from the keeper of this list to achieve. He (the conman) > probably relyied on the assumption that being so far away he could could get > away with it without much trouble. I never suggested that he would try this > locally as usually this kind of people are cowards and they are driven by > oppurtunistic motives and reasons. > > Regards > > enrico > > Hotze wrote: > > > > >First stop it. Second, if you didn't understand it I believe the comment > > >was sarcastic IE: we could find you a trs-80 case but since you've been > > >such a pain it has become highly unlikely. > > Kind of right. I was saying that if it was REALLY NEEDED and you couldn't > > ignore a row of 5x4 keys or so on your TRS-80, that there's probably someone > > who has either a spare case, or a will to trade their keypad-less TRS for > > yours. > > >There was no offer to supply one and there was no agreement save for you > > >trying to instigate one. > > Exactly. However, seeing as it will make a fellow collector happy, should I > > stumble across the model you mention, I'll tell you, and probably pay for > > half or more of the shipping. > > >A trs-80 with a keypad (one of the earliest options!) is historically > > >valid. Also historically valid was lower case mod, 2x processor speed up > > >and several different ones applied to the cassette read. This is an > > >athoritive statment as I was in the employ for TANDY from 1976 through > > >1979 and did consulting for another year after that. > > Exactly. For instance, I'm getting a A2+ from Jeff Kaneko. At first, I > > just knew that I was getting a II+. That was it. Since then, I've been > > deligeted to find that it's 64K, has a DA/AD converter, serial cards, a > > Pocket Rocket language card, etc. installed. I asked for an Apple II+. I'm > > getting one. Sometimes, it's better than what you wanted, sometimes it's > > worse, sometimes it's just different. > > >If you say you wanted the "first trs80" you should have specified one > > >that must have the 170069A PWB, and no mods/option installed. That > > >would have gotten you a 4k L1 machine in the first production series > > >(under serial number 20,000 or so). You would have had to clarify if > > >serial number greater than 0 or 1 was acceptable. Your lack of > > >knowledge of RADIO SHACK computers and how they were sold from > > >introduction is your loss. > > As well as your apparant lack of flexability, and poor eMail writing skills. > > In any case, let us "BAD PEOPLE" who "don't care if we've got a conman > > on our hands" be bad people with a conman on our hands and STOP BITCHING > > ABOUT IT!!! Listen, you didn't get what you wanted. You did get what you > > asked for. Cord's been on this list a LOT longer than you have. If we > > annoy you, then unsubscribe. END OF STORY. > > Tim D. Hotze > > -- > ======================================================== > Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK > Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) > please visit my website at: > ======================================================== -- ___________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |___________________________________________________| | \____________________________________________________\| From circuitsurgeon at fwi.com Sun Apr 12 15:24:59 1998 From: circuitsurgeon at fwi.com (Gil Jasmin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole References: <005701bd65ee$efe620a0$9d67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3531231B.4A96@fwi.com> Hotze wrote: > > >I am much more bothered by conmans (read my other reply here). I collect > for > >the historical inportance and for the history of design of old electronics > and > >for what they meant in the lives of millions of persons. I don't even care > if > >something is working or not. It is going to end up behing glass anyway. I > I find you sick. Very sick. Keep computers functional, working, cosmetics > should come second. I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE > somewhere for you. > >can't possibly USE the more than 140 historical computer I have in my > YES YOU COULD. > >collection and don't even switch them on. I don't collect them for making > them > >work but to display them and help to teach children and people about their > >importance in the hsitory of humanity. The appearance is (nearly) > everything > >to me and so a mumeric keypad where it should not be is a GREAT bother to > me. > So what the hell are you bitching about? You got what you asked for, and > now, it's not a great bother to you. So what the %$&( if it's got a > numeric keypad? It's not a GREAT bother to you, but you've been a GREAT > bother to Cord and everyone else on the list. > Tim D. Hotze AMEN--- Go Tim, You are so right. Where has common sense gone, I think 50/50, (computer/crying) is NOT the percentage most signed on for. -- To all the good and normal people, " Happy Easter". Live Long and Prosper Gil http://www2.fwi.com/~circuitsurgeon/neonking.html From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 12 15:30:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole <- Solution Message-ID: <199804122030.AA21213@world.std.com> Available for trade: I have two computer memories hard disks of unknown origins. they are available as the processors on them are 6803s and 6522s in sockets and good for 6800 hacking. These are 1983-85 vintage. Also available for trade: Several copies of CP/M-80 2.2 manuals The programmers CP/M handbook (Osborne Associates, Andy Johnson-laird) -- next to cpm alteration guide a must have for bios design. -- mix of other DRI cpm manuals (sid, ddt, mac...), *star manauls (Wordstar, calcstar...), DbaseII and more. Roughly 33 boxes of 8" disks with CP/M CPMUG and SIGM volumes on them. This is a major cache of CPM software only exceeded by what on the WC cdrom. Two Visual 1050s, local only too heavy to ship monitor safely. These are CP/M-3 z80 systems with a 6502 doing the video (with graphics) in a pizza box case, two 5.25 floppies, provisions for hard disk and matching monitor and keyboard. I may be able to configure one 10mb hard disk. Disks and docs (including slipcase manuals) for them as well. Two 8" disks in cases(power supply) sa800s both working, to heavy to ship safely (opinion). One CCS 2200 s100 system (CCS cpu, discus controller, CCS floppy controller, CCS 4 port serial) and manuals. Circa 1980, shippable at high cost. Allison From dastar at wco.com Sun Apr 12 16:47:24 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole In-Reply-To: <353118CE.1DFAD912@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: Just to let everyone know, if I was the moderator here, these types of constant, pointless messages would have been obliterated from the get-go. Everyone who was scared to let me moderate can thank themselves now for Enrico's abuse of the list. On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > Thank you for your comments. There is always something to learn from anybody > averywhere. However I notice that you failed to comment on the fact that the > conman did not send his parcel until after about THREE MONTHS after I sent > mine and even using my packing for it (and even that took some convincing from > my part). Perhaps this is an argument too difficult to defend and by the way, > why are you defending one side without knowing all the facts? > > Regards > > enrico > > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > > > > > 1) he sent the wrong computer ad I CLEARLY SPECIFIED that I wanted the VERY > > > FIRST TRS-80 model ever made and he knows this and that is why he is so > > > vehement in his replies. > > > > Well, gee, that says a lot. Did you mean you wanted the first one off the > > assembly line? Or the first prototype itself? Simply saying you want the > > very first particular make of a computer is not very concise. I could say > > I wanted the very first Apple ][ but that could mean anything from the > > original 4K model with manual start ROMs or the later 48K version upgraded > > with the autostart ROMs. In this case, it is your fault for not precisely > > stating what you wanted. Cord can't read your mind. > > > > > He is a CONMAN and he knows it and that is why he is refusing to discuss the > > > matter. I even offered to pay again to dispatch for the right computer as it > > > would be uneconomical for me and for him to return both the computers back to > > > the source (I spend more than £40.00 to send mine). > > > > Look, if this did happen, the best you can do is simply post a SINGLE > > message stating your case and LEAVE IT AT THAT. Don't expect everyone to > > be all up and arms and indignant over it for you. There's no point in > > staging a mock trial over it. Let both sides tell their story and then if > > you have any further dispute, take it to e-mail. We don't really care. > > We're intelligent enough to make our own decisions about the allegations > > and the rebuttal. > > > > > There you are. I hope I have explained myself. This is not a private matter > > > anymore: if he is so determined to con somebody who, he thinks that being so > > > > Yes, it is and has always been a private matter. Thanks for informing us > > of a possible danger. Duely noted. Now please deal with it in private > > where it belongs. > > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > [Last web page update: 04/08/98] > > -- > ======================================================== > Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK > Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile) > please visit my website at: > ======================================================== > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 12 14:05:03 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole<---drop this too! In-Reply-To: <199804121716.AA12904@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 12, 98 01:16:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2301 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980412/84e6c89f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 12 13:52:36 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole In-Reply-To: <3530EB12.E5BDB8DA@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Apr 12, 98 09:25:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2320 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980412/e5bd5ca9/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 12 17:50:23 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Donzelli Message-ID: <19980412225023.21069.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anyone know William Donzelli's e-mail address? Donzelli, are you out there? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 12 17:52:42 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: A%%****<---drop this too! Message-ID: <199804122252.AA27722@world.std.com> Please everyone, do not echo that nasty subject line. I have had too many 3.5" disks go bad, some my own, some not, not to ask why. I mean, is it just a property of 3.5" disks to be unreliable, or is something else? Are there any "industrial quality" drives/disks that are reasonably reliable? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 12 19:10:14 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Reliability of floppy drives References: <19980412225307.3260.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <353157E5.15749B9A@bbtel.com> Max Eskin wrote: > I have had too many 3.5" disks go bad, some my own, some not, not > to ask why. I mean, is it just a property of 3.5" disks to be > unreliable, or is something else? Are there any "industrial quality" > drives/disks that are reasonably reliable? While I usually use anything of generic types in floppy diskettes, I usually install new Teac floppy drives in my machines to prevent problems. Others are qaulity drives but I've had the best luck with Teacs since I started this stuff back in the early 80's. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Apr 12 18:10:34 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Mail filters Message-ID: <353149EA.9290ECC6@halcyon.com> Just another reminder that many email programs have killfiles and mail filters. Every time there is a spate of off-topic flaming or otherwise unnecessary verbage in this list, my list of mail filters grows a little longer. I now get almost no messages with profanity. It's also possible to filter out any individual who goes over the line in your estimation. I think this preferable to having additional "private lists". Of course, individuals can have correspondence with whomever they wish at any time, using personal mailing lists. Dave From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Apr 12 18:25:40 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Asshole <- Solution Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-12 15:33:58 EDT, you write: << It seems to me that there is a Historical solution for this problem, that I gather worked very well in the far distant past. Enrico has become SUCH a pain, and it seems like most of the traffic of late is a result of his insistence not to let this drop. While he may or may not have a valid problem, I no longer care, and based on the way he's acting I would suspect the problem is on his end. Because of all of this I'd like to propose a rather drastic solution >> I'm tired of hearing him whine like a little kindergartner. Welcome to my killfile, Enrico! *PLONK* Lets get back to topic! From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Apr 12 18:35:27 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Reliability of floppy drives Message-ID: <8239e4c2.35314fc1@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-12 19:13:50 EDT, you write: << Max Eskin wrote: > I have had too many 3.5" disks go bad, some my own, some not, not > to ask why. I mean, is it just a property of 3.5" disks to be > unreliable, or is something else? Are there any "industrial quality" > drives/disks that are reasonably reliable? >> grrr, i hate 3.5 disks! they seem unreliable. i have software on old 5.25 disks that have lasted longer than data on 1.44 floppies. could it be the density of the data on the disk that makes them unreliable? just a guess. david From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 12 18:42:06 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Reliability of floppy drives Message-ID: <199804122342.AA24003@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <199804122252.AA27722@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199804130215.WAA05216@mr-gateway.internal.net> > From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > Subject: Re: A%%****<---drop this too! > > > The *2 speed up was not RS, however the concession was that machine > modified with those in for repair would be serviced at normal rates if > the mod was unrelated to the problem. If a new logic was required do to > extensive damage the pricing was different (expensive). > Wasn't there a Dennis Kitz speedup mod published in an old 80 Micro article? He wrote a _bunch_ of articles containing useful mods to the model 1... really an amazing guy. I wonder what happened to him. > > They did! The best one was a little board with a 4040/4001 on it. > > > there were some rally nice mods too. The coolest mod he published an article about was a high resolution adapter which fit inside the model 1 case supporting 384x192x1 bit graphics. Anyone know any history on this? I used to drool over that article, but at the time my dad wouldn't let me open the machine up... being the only home computer at the time, and my age at about 10 or 11, I don't really blame him. ;-) --jmg From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 12 17:40:54 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: This week is the week! In-Reply-To: from "Wirehead Prime" at Apr 12, 98 02:14:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2752 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980412/b0530529/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 12 18:17:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Do your homework! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980413/4d47124f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 12 19:58:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was @##**** In-Reply-To: <199804122252.AA27798@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 12, 98 06:52:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980413/81ce9c36/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Sun Apr 12 20:26:30 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Do your homework! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > big it is. The term 'PDP11' can mean anything from a little box about the > size of a small printer (and capable of being carried in one hand) up to Which one is that? I remember the Teraks being fairly small, and I think I've seen a small MicroVAX, but was there a small portable PDP-11? -- Doug From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 12 21:27:19 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Wanted: Okimate 20 IBM interface Message-ID: <35317806.89963B5F@bbtel.com> Wanted: I have an Okidata Okimate 20 that presently has a Commodore "plug-n-print" interface in it and I'm in need of the IBM/Centronics "plug-n-print" interface for it. If someone has an IBM fitted Oki 20 but wants a Commodore interface (not likely) I'd like to evenly swap interfaces or if someone has just an interface for it for IBM I'd like to trade them something or buy it directly. Anyone? I need this for use with my portable PS/2 P70 when I go on jobs or such and need to print things of importance. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From maynard at jmg.com Sun Apr 12 22:09:31 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: List issues / moderation / new maintainer (was Re: obnoxious header) In-Reply-To: (message from Sam Ismail on Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:47:24 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <199804130309.XAA05286@mr-gateway.internal.net> > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Re: Asshole > > > Just to let everyone know, if I was the moderator here, these types of > constant, pointless messages would have been obliterated from the get-go. > Everyone who was scared to let me moderate can thank themselves now for > Enrico's abuse of the list. > > > On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > > > Thank you for your comments. There is always something to learn from anybody [rant on] Oh come on, Sam. The only reason Enrico hasn't been tossed is because Bill is too busy to deal, we can't fault him for that. However, we _really_ could use a list maintainer who has the time to actually read the list and toss the occasional kook. My biggest issue with you becoming list maintainer is that you regularly attempt to control content by sending public flames. I _know_ you get frustrated when folks discuss things that you find off topic, I even agree _in spirit_ with your stated goals. But your interpretation of what's signal and what's noise, and how to deal with the noisier folks, leaves me unable to support you as list maintainer. This is called 'list politics' and is something which we must deal with. It's _annoying_, has nothing to do with classic computers, and because of that is something we'd all like to just forget. Unfortunately, the last big flame war nearly blew this list apart. I _really_ don't want to see that happen because there is so much useful stuff going on here that I would consider it a big loss if the list simply died from this garbage. My father is seriously ill, so I can't handle the job... and I don't think the majority of the people here want me in the seat, anyway. But it's clear that a large number of people here don't want you in that seat either. If the list votes - in majority - to make you list maintainer, I'll shut up. Until then we (as a list) have some unresolved issues of a _practical_ matter which need to be hashed out, publicly; and I think we should _ALL_ start talking it over. Is the list going to move? What software do we want to run? do we wish per post moderation to keep the content on topic, or can we trust the members to post using informal 'judgment' calls? It's currently running Tasos Kastonsis's (sp? - I used to work with the guy, _real_ nice guy BTW!) Listproc package. Both of these are capable packages, I'd vote for either majordomo or listproc on this 'cause I don't want to lose digest capability. I'd _like_ to keep the list right where it is, but if Bill doesn't want to give list maintainance authority to a complete stranger (and why should we blame him for that?) then we may have to consider finding a new server and host.domain address. And finally, even though Enrico has abused the list, and even though we seem to have regular flame wars now and then over what's 'on topic' and what's 'off topic', I think we're still _much_ better off using 'judgment calls' and 'personal censorship' rather than having a list moderator check posts before making them public. The last flame war was _different_ from what we're experiencing with Enrico, he just needs to be kicked off the list (IMHO). But the last one showed that we need to resolve inherent problems with list maintenance... someone needs to take on these responsibilities, I agree. I just want it to come to public vote and I want the list to remain free enough for Tim Hotze to post an occasional off topic thing without a public flame going into all our mailboxes, or a list moderator cutting it out because he/she finds the discussion out of bounds. Finally, Sam, please don't take this as a hostile flame. You often post knowledgeable and helpful materials. I apologized to you personally, and on the list, because of how helpful you've been both to me and others. It would have been a real shame to see you go (and at the time you hadn't posted for a couple of days so I seriously thought you might leave), and I didn't want to be in any way responsible for that. But I still don't think you're the right person to handle list maintenance, and I'll continue saying so until the issue is resolved through some consensus of the list participants. [rant off] --jmg From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Apr 12 17:03:11 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Reliability of floppy drives In-Reply-To: <8239e4c2.35314fc1@aol.com> Message-ID: <199804130200.WAA09402@mail.cgocable.net> > In a message dated 98-04-12 19:13:50 EDT, you write: > > << Max Eskin wrote: > > > I have had too many 3.5" disks go bad, some my own, some not, not > > grrr, i hate 3.5 disks! they seem unreliable. i have software on old 5.25 > disks that have lasted longer than data on 1.44 floppies. could it be the > density of the data on the disk that makes them unreliable? just a guess. > > david Guys, are anyone using bulk disks like 25 a box or more? Usually often are not too well screened. One time I got myself 25 disks box that my friends claimed to be pretty good and knows few had bad ones and formatted them again all. About 5 or 10% came out bad and more disks followed into bin after some use. I have much luck with Fuji also RAO (but these RAO are only found in highly marked up expensive office supplies so I had only access to RAO, nearly never get them bec they were priced over $15~22 CDN when I'm in Canada. When I'm out visiting in USA (rarely now) I pick up one or two boxes of these Fuji disks which typically priced very reasonably. Dysan, Viewmaster, Maxwell, few others failed my quality requirement and some bucked data off when I put some to under heavy use. Fuji and RAO did not do that at all. Is there a easy to contact canadian vendors where I CAN get disks that good or exceed Fuji or RAO for reasonabley 10~15 dollars a 25 disk packs? And these kind of disks that you don't get by normal means at most stores, read: BEST ONEs by profenssionals. Recently binned 4 disks in appox one month period. And I'm wondering same thing about that where to get new quality floppy drives 3.5"! All I can find that is really good, well built ones were 8~10+ years old Sony (couple here, after solder work) and Toshiba drives (after cleaning all the silver contacts and 4 of them still going strong, and one with bad logic board.) Panasonic uses poor design using one rail under the heads and not sleeved with harder bearing material, just plastic. Teac is a-ok but hard to get anywhere with quality features built in. What I desire: soft cushioning, many old ones had these that only allows heads or both heads and disk to land softly during diskette insertion, sleeved bearings, ball bearing on the spindle, and rapid response in head and rpm so I have a "quicker" fd. Please help me to find real ones...Even by different means. I mean it! :( Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From gram at cnct.com Sun Apr 12 21:58:01 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Model 1 mods (was Re: obnoxious subject header) References: <199804122252.AA27722@world.std.com> <199804130215.WAA05216@mr-gateway.internal.net> Message-ID: <35317F39.D4E20E9C@cnct.com> J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > IIRC my family had a model 1 upgraded from a 4K level I basic > unit to a 16k level II with numeric keypad; during the upgrade my > dad also sprung for a lowercase mod (this had to have been around > late 1978). We were waiting for an Expansion Interface and disk > unit (original Shugart single density drive), which were on > backorder and didn't arrive for _months_. I seem to remember one > of the advantages of buying a later Model 1 was that the > keyboard, while unable to remove the keycaps for cleaning, > actually _solved_ the keybounce problem. My current model 1 has > the old type keyboard and continues to bounce keys (no keypad); > rather annoying. The keybounce on my original Mod 1 came and went. The pattern seemed to be that every time I turned the keyboard upside down and shook out a month's or more worth of cigarette ashes, the bounce came back. > Wasn't there a Dennis Kitz speedup mod published in an old > 80 Micro article? He wrote a _bunch_ of articles containing > useful mods to the model 1... really an amazing guy. I wonder > what happened to him. Dennis is still alive and well, these days mostly concentrating on music. is his homepage. Some months (I guess about a year now), he was looking for a home for the original "Custom TRS-80", the one used for all of the projects in the book of that name and his 80-Micro columns. It seems the Boston Computer Museum wasn't interested, I don't know what has happened since. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From mor at crl.com Sun Apr 12 21:01:13 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:20 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole References: Message-ID: <353171E9.6B4F8170@crl.com> Tony Duell wrote: > 2) Finding out what the machines I grew up dreaming of were really like. I'm especially fond of this reason. I could never afford Apple II or S-100 equipment, and eventually got inexpensive Vic-20 and Timex-Sinclair machines... Then some Atari8-bit stuff... I really wanted to give Mac, ST, and Amiga machines a whirl but had to pass them up in order afford the PC stuff I really needed for my job... The urge to backtrack and finally play with machines I reluctantly skipped over is my main reason for starting a collection. And once I was in a collecting mindset, and getting familiar with "families" of machines and the complete history of computers, I found myself reading old literature and becoming interested in things I was pretty much oblivious to at the time they were new--like minicomputers, Euro home machines, Alpha-Micros, HP85's, etc... > I won't claim I run all my 150+ machines all the time. I have a few that > I run quite often (the PDP11/45, the PDP8/e, the PERQ 2, a TRS-80 M4, > this PC/AT, etc). Others I only run from time to time when I need them. > But I do try to have all my machines operational if at all possible. I'm of the same feeling, yet I run across more machines at flea markets, thrift and surplus stores than I have time to work on, and am building up quite a backlog. I feel better getting them for either a) later tinkering, or b) someday passing the project off to someone else who's better prepared to make the effort--than leaving them there, running the risk of them being trashed... So, despite considering myself a hacker/user, I've become as much a straight collector, hanging on to as many machines I may never use, as ones I am continually getting to know better... -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From marvin at rain.org Sun Apr 12 22:14:32 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy References: Message-ID: <35318318.8C4BBADC@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, I collect for the same reasons as Enrico and my collection is > > somewhere over 300 comupters. It would be wonderful to make sure they > are > > all working and use them on a regular basis but that is not even > remotely > > Hmmm... No flmes intended (and I hope we can agree to differ on this), > but I really can't see the point in collecting non-working computers _and > keeping them that way_. Sure I get a lot of non-working machines, but the > first thing I do is attempt to find a technical manual or scheamatic and > repair them. Working machines are a lot more interesting. The case I probably didn't phrase things as well as I could have. I am *always* on the lookout for technical manuals, documentation, and schematics for the early machines, and *keeping* the older machines non-working is not the idea. Most of the machines I have do work. However I also have a number of them that were given to me not working. Some, such as C-64s, are a dime a dozen and not worth (to me) the time to fix them. Understand them yes, but fix them no. Others, such as the Jonas computers, are completely without docs and I continue to keep my eyes open for stuff like that. In other cases (pun intended :) ), I simply have no use for the computers and have gotten them because they were headed to the dump if I had not taken them. Of course, I usually take them regardless when they are given to me :). I don't think we differ on the reasons for collecting. From dastar at wco.com Sun Apr 12 22:23:44 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, I collect for the same reasons as Enrico and my collection is > > somewhere over 300 comupters. It would be wonderful to make sure they are > > all working and use them on a regular basis but that is not even remotely > > Hmmm... No flmes intended (and I hope we can agree to differ on this), > but I really can't see the point in collecting non-working computers _and > keeping them that way_. Sure I get a lot of non-working machines, but the > first thing I do is attempt to find a technical manual or scheamatic and > repair them. Working machines are a lot more interesting. The case Well, not all of us have the time to work on every single system we get our hands on. There are only so many hours in the day left over after life stuff (ie. job, pets, family...) and this is just a side hobby for me. My concern first is to at least get the computers to prevent them from being disposed of and worry about getting them running later. > I collect for many reasons, amongst them : > 1) The fun and mental challenge of restoring/repairing them. Fault > finding can be interesting, you know I do it for the joy of being surrounded by such an ecclectic and expansive collection of computers that span the innovation of two decades. When I make enough money to relax for a couple months, I'll have fun restoring and repairing them. > 2) Finding out what the machines I grew up dreaming of were really like. > And the machines that came before them. I could never afford them when > new, now I can play with them Same here. > 4) Tracing the history of certain features. To take a trivial example, > IOBYTE at location 3 on CP/M can be traced back to the Intellec MCS8i. It > was at location 3 on that machine (with the same format of 4 2-bit > fields) as locations 0-2 were reserved for the reset jump instruction, so > this was the first free RAM location. This is not only fun, but in my view, relevant. These are the sorts of tidbits that, in my nerdy opion, would make a fascinating book: where all the standards came from. > I won't claim I run all my 150+ machines all the time. I have a few that > I run quite often (the PDP11/45, the PDP8/e, the PERQ 2, a TRS-80 M4, > this PC/AT, etc). Others I only run from time to time when I need them. > But I do try to have all my machines operational if at all possible. That's commendable, but there's not a lot of need on my end to have everything running. There's a desire, but not a need. When my collection goes on display, it will be desirable to have at least one of everything in the collection working with usable software so that people studying the artifact can get a better understanding of it. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 12 23:06:37 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Do your homework! Message-ID: <199804130406.AA08165@world.std.com> Greets: I have a customer that is looking for a modem for his Apple ][gs. Admittadly, I don't know a whole lot about this area and some posts in the newsgroups haven't turned up much either. Anyway, I am wondering if some of you Apple experts could give me some more information on the types of modems available for the GS and any other pertinent information... such as, what type of interface is needed, software to use on the GS (terminal, etc.) and anything else you feel like throwing in. Also, I have several old Hayes 2400 baud external modems.... would these be compatible with the Apple ][gs? What else would I need to get this modem setup on that system? Any help in getting this guy set up would be appreciated. Sincerely, CORD COSLOR -- ___________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |---------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |___________________________________________________| | \____________________________________________________\| From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 13 01:24:14 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Modem for Apple ][gs? In-Reply-To: <35319BC8.9A6E9D5@navix.net> Message-ID: >Also, I have several old Hayes 2400 baud external modems.... would >these be compatible with the Apple ][gs? What else would I need to >get this modem setup on that system? About a year ago for the fun of it, I hooked up an external Practical Peripherals 14.4 modem (nicest modem I've ever owned with nice informative text display) to a ][gs I've got and was able to use it with no problem. Just need a Macintosh Modem cable (gotta love the ][gs). The Hayes should work just fine, but if you can, I'd recommend faster. There is a bunch of software available. I'm afraid I don't remember what terminal software I was using, or where I got it. I was using it to dial into a UNIX machine at work, so VT100 emulation was important. Been a while since I've had the space to have the ][gs set up. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 13 01:25:45 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Reliability of floppy drives References: <199804130200.WAA09402@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3531AFE9.D4A2A5CC@bbtel.com> jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Guys, are anyone using bulk disks like 25 a box or more? Usually > often are not too well screened. One time I got myself 25 disks box > that my friends claimed to be pretty good and knows few had bad ones > and formatted them again all. About 5 or 10% came out bad and more > disks followed into bin after some use. I have much luck with Fuji > also RAO (but these RAO are only found in highly marked up expensive > office supplies so I had only access to RAO, nearly never get them > bec they were priced over $15~22 CDN when I'm in Canada. When I'm > out visiting in USA (rarely now) I pick up one or two boxes of these > Fuji disks which typically priced very reasonably. Dysan, > Viewmaster, Maxwell, few others failed my quality requirement and > some bucked data off when I put some to under heavy use. > Fuji and RAO did not do that at all. I buy them 100 and 500 per case and usually get 1-2 with bad sectors per 100. Not bad considering they're anywhere from 18 to 24 cents each. The biggest problem seems to be early failure of some drives and dirt failures. I've had drives give Sector Not Found, General Failure, etc and ran a wet cleaning disk through to get the same. I've opened them up and used a foam swab and denatured alcohol (like I use for vcr repairs) on the heads against the grain of the head and the drive works like new. The biggest culprit is smoking residue and soot from wood stoves, both of which are present here. "Back belching" may do something to it too ;-) Some of the problem is caused by the user, leaving stacks of disks on the desk to pick up all sorts of grit and dust that gets put into the drive and diskette eventually. If I have extremely important data to protect I either use a tape backup or a rewriteable CD (CDRW) to store the data, such as my business records and address lists. This is not perfect as you have to actually do the backup for it to work and I've been known to slack 3 months on my checkbook reconciliation so you can imagine when the last time was that I backed up the hard drive. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at wco.com Mon Apr 13 00:43:37 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Modem for Apple ][gs? In-Reply-To: <35319BC8.9A6E9D5@navix.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Cord Coslor wrote: > I have a customer that is looking for a modem for his Apple ][gs. > Admittadly, I don't know a whole lot about this area and some posts > in the newsgroups haven't turned up much either. Anyway, I am > wondering if some of you Apple experts could give me some more > information on the types of modems available for the GS and any other > pertinent information... such as, what type of interface is needed, > software to use on the GS (terminal, etc.) and anything else you feel > like throwing in. > > Also, I have several old Hayes 2400 baud external modems.... would > these be compatible with the Apple ][gs? What else would I need to > get this modem setup on that system? Any old external modem should work at speeds up to 38400 I believe? A Hayes 2400 would work just fine. Didn't the //gs come with a serial port? Otherwise you just need a super serial card. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/08/98] From donm at cts.com Mon Apr 13 00:58:28 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: More Northstar Assistance Requested In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > All righty then, thanks to the kind help of Allison, the Northstar will > now attempt to boot off a drive set to DS0. The CPU's POJ address is now > set the Northstar MDS-AD3 controller card. On boot, it goes > read-read-read, read-read-read, read-read-read and gives up. Does it just give up, or does it leave a numeric series message on the terminal? My Horizon does the read-read-read thing and displays its boot message in about the time it takes to say 'boot Northstar DOS'. I don't have a gouge handy, but is the AD3 the DD controller? > Doug Coward had sent me an NSDOS boot diskette, which I'm trying to boot, > and something doesn't seem happy. Is there any reason I couldn't use the > MPI-52 drive I'm trying to use? Is there any reason I shouldn't try a > known-good Shugart SA400? I also tried a half-height 360k floppy drive > for giggles with the same result. Any of them should work if jumpered properly. Mine has two full high drives in the cabinet, and a couple half high ones in an external box. Both sets work fine. > Does anyone have boot diskettes for CP/M for this machine? Can anyone > offer advice or assistance? In short, HELP! =-) I could make up and proof a couple of diskettes for you. E-mail me if you are interested. - don > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Apr 11 20:24:36 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Asshole Posts In-Reply-To: References: <353118CE.1DFAD912@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <199804130626.CAA07383@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 98 at 14:47, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Just to let everyone know, if I was the moderator here, these types of > constant, pointless messages would have been obliterated from the get-go. > Everyone who was scared to let me moderate can thank themselves now for > Enrico's abuse of the list. > > > On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Enrico Tedeschi wrote: > Big Snip The biggest abuse of the list has been those who choose to reply to Enrico's rants (including myself with this message). Cord to his credit has shown admirable resrtaint. Score for this download 12/4/98.......20 assholes - 19 classiccmp No, make that 21 including mine. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Apr 11 20:24:36 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: ESDI hard drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980412150848.007e3180@wingate> References: <19980412195701.2485.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199804130626.CAA07387@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 98 at 15:08, David Wollmann wrote: > At 12:57 PM 4/12/98 PDT, you wrote: > >Does anyone have an ESDI hard drive for a PS/2 Model 70? I have a > >60, but want to replace it with a 120 (the other size the PS/2 came > >with; I don't want to risk having an incompatible hard drive). I > >don't know if others are compatible. However, this is a wide single > >ribbon connector. > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > PC Assist shows two drives compatible drives, the 60 and 120MB, both ESDI > Direct Bus Attach, MFM encoded. This applies to models A61, A21, B61, B21. > > I wonder though if there aren't other ESDIs out there that will work as > long as they're DBA? You might check with MicroHaus (sp?) to see if they > have any larger cpacity NOS drives that will work. Just a shot in the dark. > Further to my earlier note : Here's a quote from some correspondence I had from Peter Wendt "' These "Integrated Harddisks" you most likely meant were used in Mod. 50, 55, 70 and P70. These are ESDI-drives with a combined electronic board underneath, which is in fact a full MCA-adapter. The device has a Card-ID DF9F. In IBM- technoslovakian this thing is called "DBA Harddrive", where DBA stands for "Direct Bus Attachment". Size are 30,40,60,80,120 and 160MB. A 200MB was available from Conner for some time but not as original part or OEM from IBM. Very friendly greetings from Peter in Germany http://members.aol.com/phwimage1/mcaindex.htm "Master Of Desaster" - PS/2 expert since 1987 (Sigh !) "" IIRC it was also possible to add other non-OEM drives. Check with Peter. cxiao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Apr 11 20:24:37 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: ESDI hard drives In-Reply-To: <19980412195701.2485.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199804130626.CAA07396@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 98 at 12:57, Max Eskin wrote: > Does anyone have an ESDI hard drive for a PS/2 Model 70? I have a > 60, but want to replace it with a 120 (the other size the PS/2 came > with; I don't want to risk having an incompatible hard drive). I > don't know if others are compatible. However, this is a wide single > ribbon connector. > Many of the larger ESDI drives will work on your 8570. Check out the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware newsgroup. On it you will find a lot of incredibly helpfull and knowledgeable PS/2 people not least of whom is the amazing Peter Wendt whose PS/2 site is http://members.aol.com/phwimage1/mcaindex.htm If he can't answer your questions nobody can. He also has a program on his site to sniff out your cards FRU # and a list of the ADF needed for it. Another place is the PS/2 FAQ at www.computercraft.com (that could be without the www) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Apr 11 20:24:35 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: 5150 was Re: Asshole bites the dust In-Reply-To: References: <3530171D.DEACEB26@ndirect.co.uk> from "Enrico Tedeschi" at Apr 12, 98 01:21:36 am Message-ID: <199804130626.CAA07401@smtp.interlog.com> On 12 Apr 98 at 15:14, Tony Duell wrote: > 'The first TRS80' is pretty ambiguous, you know. For example, what is > 'the first IBM-PC' (even if we accept it's a 5150 of some kind)? Any 5-slot > machine? A 5 slot machine with the 16K-64K system board (most had the > later 64K-256K board in them). Can it have disk drives (remember, the > original spec allowed a cassette-only machine). Does it have to have only > IBM expansion cards? Only IBM expansion cards that were in production > when the machine was made? Different people would answere those questions > in different ways. > > -tony > Did IBM ever really put out a cassette for the 5150's ? Knowing "Big Blue" that must have been a very impressive and expensive tape-mchn. How was this port accessed ? Does anyone know what " hacks" were done or possible on this I/O ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From dastar at wco.com Mon Apr 13 04:18:42 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: VCF 1.0 Photo Gallery now online Message-ID: The Photo Gallery is now open on the Vintage Computer Festival web page. Photos from the exhibit hall of VCF 1.0 as well as the photos of the unveiling of the prototype Sol 20 by Lee Felsenstein and Bob Marsh are on display. The pictures show what VCF 1.0 was like and give you an indicator of what to expect at VCF2. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 13 08:40:12 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: ESDI hard drives References: <199804130626.CAA07396@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <353215BB.25226E31@bbtel.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > whom is the amazing Peter Wendt whose PS/2 site is > http://members.aol.com/phwimage1/mcaindex.htm If you haven't been there in a while you'll note that his page has changed tohttp://members.aol.com/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Mon Apr 13 08:40:59 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Reliability of floppy drives In-Reply-To: <19980412225307.3260.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > I have had too many 3.5" disks go bad, some my own, some not, not > to ask why. I mean, is it just a property of 3.5" disks to be > unreliable, or is something else? Are there any "industrial quality" > drives/disks that are reasonably reliable? Always reformat the factory pre-formatted diskettes before using them. This increases reliability 3 fold in my experience...at least. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 13 08:44:10 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: 5150 was Re: Asshole bites the dust References: <3530171D.DEACEB26@ndirect.co.uk> from "Enrico Tedeschi" at Apr 12, 98 01:21:36 am <199804130626.CAA07401@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <353216AA.8147BD4C@bbtel.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > On 12 Apr 98 at 15:14, Tony Duell wrote: > > Did IBM ever really put out a cassette for the 5150's ? Knowing "Big Blue" > that must have been a very impressive and expensive tape-mchn. How was this > port accessed ? Does anyone know what " hacks" were done or possible on > this I/O ? There eveidentally was as a load of equipment I obtained last year included a cassette drive that was marked IBM and had the DIN plug on it. I didn't hang onto it as someone that had previously stored the load of equipment was nice enough to apparently use the cassette as a wheel chock so therefore it was slightly out of square. Of course it became part of our ever continuing history buried in numerous landfills across the US. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 13 08:42:54 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Do your homework! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980413084254.00bb4100@pc> Doug Yowza wrote: >Which one is that? I remember the Teraks being fairly small, and I think >I've seen a small MicroVAX, but was there a small portable PDP-11? The Terak main unit is about 18" x 12" x 8" DxWxH, the disk drive is the same form but about 5 1/2" tall. I remember DEC's MiniMINC, a white 11/03-ish machine roughly the same size as the Terak setup. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Apr 13 09:26:41 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Do your homework! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980413084254.00bb4100@pc> from "John Foust" at Apr 13, 98 08:42:54 am Message-ID: <199804131426.KAA20389@shell.monmouth.com> > > Doug Yowza wrote: > >Which one is that? I remember the Teraks being fairly small, and I think > >I've seen a small MicroVAX, but was there a small portable PDP-11? > > The Terak main unit is about 18" x 12" x 8" DxWxH, the disk drive is the > same form but about 5 1/2" tall. I remember DEC's MiniMINC, a white > 11/03-ish machine roughly the same size as the Terak setup. > > - John > Jefferson Computer Museum > The MiniMINC was actually a DEC PDT 11/150 with EIS/FIS. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Apr 13 10:06:27 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: You've got to be pulling my chain... (Ethernet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199804131456.JAA27879@onyx.southwind.net> And somewhere, in my stack of stuff, I have a copy of the MultiBUS ethernet card that was 3Com's 1st product.. . . Jeff > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > Sorry, but this seems crazy to me. Was Ethernet invented in 1973? Was it > > > 10MBps then? > > > > I somehow doubt it! > > >From the tagline of Bob Metcalfe's regular column in Infoworld... > (this should explain all...) > > "Technology pundit Bob Metcalfe invented Ethernet in 1973 and founded 3Com > in 1979, and today he specializes in the Internet..." > > ...and just in case that does not work for you, I have a copy of the > original joint specification document buried in the archives somewhere. > B^} > > -jim > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 13 09:18:03 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Do your homework! In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: Do your homework!" (Apr 13, 0:06) References: <199804130406.AA08165@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9804131518.ZM22771@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 13, 0:06, Allison J Parent wrote: > > I have an 11/23, 256k ram, dlv11j and MRV11 in a ba11va shoebox. > The floppy (RX02) is about 4 times the volume of the CPU! General Robotics made a single 8" RX02-compatible floppy in a box barely bigger than the drive itself, complete with carrying handle. A company I once worked for had one for field servoids. AFAIR it was a standard SA800 50-pin interface to connect to their own dual-height RXV controller. I've got an 11/03 (M7270) with MXV11-A and a Baydel dual-height F311 (like an RXV11, but interfaces to SA800 drives) with a 4-slot dual-width (not quad) backplane. It's missing box/PSU and floppy, though, so it's not terribly functional ATM. I'm sure someone has built something even smaller with a Falcon or similar. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From peacock at simconv.com Mon Apr 13 13:20:37 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Do your homework! Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E879@mail.simconv.com> > I've seen a small MicroVAX, but was there a small portable PDP-11? There was a small PDP-11 about the size of a MicroVax 2000. It was called the PDT. It had an 11/03 CPU, 64KB, 8" floppy (RX01), and some serial ports. RT-11 was the only supported OS as the floppy took a special driver. It was a real lemon, we had a few, proved to be very unreliable as they would constantly overheat. They were also susceptible to static discharge on the case, so they didn't work too well in carpeted offices. Jack Peacock From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Apr 13 13:40:24 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Do your homework! In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E879@mail.simconv.com> from "Jack Peacock" at Apr 13, 98 11:20:37 am Message-ID: <199804131840.OAA16432@shell.monmouth.com> > > > I've seen a small MicroVAX, but was there a small portable PDP-11? > There was a small PDP-11 about the size of a MicroVax 2000. It was > called the PDT. It had an 11/03 CPU, 64KB, 8" floppy (RX01), and some > serial ports. RT-11 was the only supported OS as the floppy took a > special driver. It was a real lemon, we had a few, proved to be very > unreliable as they would constantly overheat. They were also > susceptible to static discharge on the case, so they didn't work too > well in carpeted offices. > Jack Peacock > Actually, the PDT 11/150 ran quite well once they came out. I ran one for three years under RT11 with FB and multiterminal support. It's biggest problem was comm overruns/underruns because the I/O was all handled by an 8080 (or was it an 8085). The 11/130 used DECtapes and the 11/110 was downloaded. The biggest problem with the PDT was the price, the fact it was not easily expandable by third parties (no Qbus) and slow. DEC repeated some of the same mistakes in the PC line in the 80's. (no QBUS on the Pro, special i/o drivers, non-standard OS version). I never saw a static hit here in my den that crashed it. Bill ex-DEC Field Service PDT lover... +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From william at ans.net Mon Apr 13 15:08:23 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Donzelli In-Reply-To: <19980412225023.21069.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Does anyone know William Donzelli's e-mail address? > Donzelli, are you out there? I am still on the list, but I lurk now. There is just way too much noise (as well as some bad eggs) on it - I really do not want to be in that environment. Please contact me privately at . William Donzelli william@ans.net From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Apr 13 15:17:17 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13347545503.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Why collect?] I like to think that eventually I'll have all my machines on the 'net one way or another. So far, it's just the uVAXen... ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 13 16:10:47 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole Message-ID: <19980413211048.3058.qmail@hotmail.com> Even if I had the room and time to pick up every machine that was headed for the dump, what can I do with several dozen PC clones? Same goes for other systems. It's interesting to have maybe a couple, but not the "8 PDP 11/34, 22 Atari ST, 15 Apple ][" I hear. >Well, not all of us have the time to work on every single system we get >our hands on. There are only so many hours in the day left over after >life stuff (ie. job, pets, family...) and this is just a side hobby for >me. My concern first is to at least get the computers to prevent them >from being disposed of and worry about getting them running later. > >> I collect for many reasons, amongst them : >> 1) The fun and mental challenge of restoring/repairing them. Fault >> finding can be interesting, you know > >I do it for the joy of being surrounded by such an ecclectic and expansive >collection of computers that span the innovation of two decades. When I >make enough money to relax for a couple months, I'll have fun restoring >and repairing them. > >> 2) Finding out what the machines I grew up dreaming of were really like. >> And the machines that came before them. I could never afford them when >> new, now I can play with them > >Same here. > >> 4) Tracing the history of certain features. To take a trivial example, >> IOBYTE at location 3 on CP/M can be traced back to the Intellec MCS8i. It >> was at location 3 on that machine (with the same format of 4 2-bit >> fields) as locations 0-2 were reserved for the reset jump instruction, so >> this was the first free RAM location. > >This is not only fun, but in my view, relevant. These are the sorts of >tidbits that, in my nerdy opion, would make a fascinating book: where all >the standards came from. > >> I won't claim I run all my 150+ machines all the time. I have a few that >> I run quite often (the PDP11/45, the PDP8/e, the PERQ 2, a TRS-80 M4, >> this PC/AT, etc). Others I only run from time to time when I need them. >> But I do try to have all my machines operational if at all possible. > >That's commendable, but there's not a lot of need on my end to have >everything running. There's a desire, but not a need. When my collection >goes on display, it will be desirable to have at least one of everything >in the collection working with usable software so that people studying the >artifact can get a better understanding of it. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/08/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 13 13:50:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy In-Reply-To: <35318318.8C4BBADC@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Apr 12, 98 08:14:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2048 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980413/2a6f1795/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 13 13:31:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: 5150 was Re: Asshole bites the dust In-Reply-To: <199804130626.CAA07401@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 12, 98 01:24:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2824 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980413/f87082e9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 13 13:37:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Do your homework! In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Apr 12, 98 08:26:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1450 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980413/39fe8b45/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 13 14:52:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 12, 98 08:23:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3275 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980413/04175979/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 13 17:17:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Do your homework! Message-ID: <199804132217.AA14054@world.std.com> Hello everyone, Just a quick "Rescue Needed" announcement. There is a VAX 11/750 available at WeirdStuff Warehouse in Sunnyvale, CA. Most of you Bay Area classic computer enthusiasts probably know where this place is. If not, visit http://www.weirdstuff.com/. The 11/750 doesn't have any paripherals, nor any disk, but it does appear to be fully populated with cards. Be the first one on your block to own a classic, proper VAX! Anyway, it's up for auction there. If I had infinite space and lots of time, I'd go get it myself, but I don't :) -Seth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 13 17:19:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole In-Reply-To: <19980413211048.3058.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Apr 13, 98 02:10:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1264 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980413/378be4e5/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 13 17:47:07 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole In-Reply-To: Tony Duell "Re: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole" (Apr 13, 23:19) References: Message-ID: <9804132347.ZM2253@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 13, 23:19, Tony Duell wrote: > Seriously, I think you can justtify owning several of the same machine if > the machines have expansion slots (like the Apple ][ or the PDP11) and > you've got a lot of cards you want to play with. I'm pretty sure I've got > far too many unibus cards (even with DB11 bus repeaters) for a single > machine. And I wonder how useful 2 DX11's (I do mean DX11, not RX11) are > on the same machine. Isn't a DX11 an IBM channel interface? Originally a big cabinet with a lot of flip chips and lamps? I've seen two, working. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From bwit at pobox.com Mon Apr 13 18:11:50 1998 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Model 1 mods (was Re: obnoxious subject header) Message-ID: <01BD6709.17372B20@ppp-151-164-52-204.rcsntx.swbell.net> > Wasn't there a Dennis Kitz speedup mod published in an old > 80 Micro article? He wrote a _bunch_ of articles containing > useful mods to the model 1... really an amazing guy. I wonder > what happened to him. Dennis is alive and well and may be contacted at bathory@maltedmedia.com. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 13 19:36:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole In-Reply-To: <9804132347.ZM2253@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 13, 98 10:47:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 576 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980414/828f8942/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 13 19:41:48 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Reliability of floppy drives References: Message-ID: <3532B0CC.BFC5CD6@cnct.com> Wirehead Prime wrote: > > > I have had too many 3.5" disks go bad, some my own, some not, not > > to ask why. I mean, is it just a property of 3.5" disks to be > > unreliable, or is something else? Are there any "industrial quality" > > drives/disks that are reasonably reliable? > > Always reformat the factory pre-formatted diskettes before using them. > This increases reliability 3 fold in my experience...at least. I _hate_ factory pre-formatted diskettes. I bulk-erase the bastards before I risk using them under all circumstances. _Might_ be because of the batch that had the Michealangelo boot virus from the factory. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Apr 13 20:28:51 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: neat find Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980413202851.006c0f0c@pop3.concentric.net> today at goodwill I found a Advance Micro Device AM2900 Evaluation & Learning Kit in the it's box (very nice design on it) with one worksheet. the unit was only $5. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 13 21:26:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: neat find Message-ID: <199804140226.AA26372@world.std.com> ; from Allison J Parent on Mon, Apr 13, 1998 at 10:26:07PM -0400 References: <199804140226.AA26372@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19980413225529.27563@merit.edu> Hi; One of the fruits of a dumpster dive this weekend was an Apple ][e in pristine condition, without a display. There's an "AE Z-80 plus" card in it. It's made by Applied Engineering and the date codes are 82-83. Did this card facilitate TRS-80 emulation, or did it just allow one to run things that needed more power than the 6502? Of course I have no use or interest in this machine. If you'd like it I'd gladly send it to you for some small trade. I will also include the "Dumpling GX" card, the "MICRO-SCI" card (a memory expansion?) and/or the power supply. Nick naamato@merit.edu P.S. Is any of this stuff rare? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Apr 13 22:31:10 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: AE Z-80 for Apple ][e Message-ID: <66152b4f.3532d87f@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-13 22:57:15 EDT, you write: << naamato@merit.edu P.S. Is any of this stuff rare? >> no From ecloud at bigfoot.com Mon Apr 13 23:30:55 1998 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: [OFF TOPIC?] Fixed Freq Monitor Questions Message-ID: <3532E67F.B5B5A20C@bigfoot.com> J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > OK, This is mildly on topic. My monitor is an HP 1097C, making > it at least 10 years old. However, I am using it with a modern PC, so > that's where the 'on topic' issue gets a little iffy. I'm sure there > are plenty of people here who can answer this question. A pointer to > a FAQ would be most welcome. Here's one interesting URL: http://rugmd0.chem.rug.nl/~everdij/hitachi.html I've seen others as well but that was the one I made a bookmark to. :-) > These old monitors are Fixed frequency, unlike our modern > monitors which multisync. The 1097C supports only a 78.125 khz > Horizontal Scan Rate and a 72hz Vertical Refresh Rate. Now a couple > of years ago I foolishly bought one of those cards by Mirage > (www.mirage-mmc.com) which is supposed to be a 'fixed freq video > card'. Actually, it's an OEM Diamond card, basically an S3/968 video > processor with an IBM 52x RAMDAC - ala Diamond Stealth VRAM. The > fixed Freq hacks are basically a resistor (and a jumper selection) to > drive sync over green, and a homebrew PROM to skew the VESA > frequencies for several video and text modes. Hmmm, interesting. Photon also makes fixed-freq. boards, and I was tempted to get one for an old SuperMac monitor I have. I also once attempted to fix a batch of Moniterm monitors that had various problems, and the one board I found to use with them in Windows was a Vermont Microsystems model that cost way too much to begin with, and is now no longer made. There was also no driver later than Windows 3.1, so my dad has it now since he still has a slow 486. Anyhow, I thought Photon's boards were probably better than Mirage's, I forget why. They are at www.photonweb.com I think, but I can't seem to get there at the moment. > It works, but Mirage hasn't been too helpful with getting a > variety of XFree86 modelines, even though they claim to support Linux Darn, shame on them. > and XFree86. They give out _one_ modeline for 1280 x 1024, which they Well at least it works eh? Can you at least upgrade the VRAM to get more colors, or did you want low-res for some other reason? > swiped from the XFree86 distribution in 'Monitors.txt'. For Windows > and Dos, they give out a video driver which seems to work just fine. > It will even display 320x200 full screen (Quake works great in DOS!), > and boots to a functional 80x24 col text mode. How the hell do they > do this? > > Here is how I'm calculating my video modes based in the > XFree86VideoModes HOWTO (found in every Redhat 5 distribution): You understood what they said, that your horizontal line includes enough "dots" to allow time for the gun to sweep back to the beginning of the next line? So to get 1280 dots across, you might need to allow 1350-1400ish dot-clock-periods per line (or maybe even more). (dots/sec) / (dots/line) = lines/sec = lines/frame * frames/sec For example: if you want 1024 lines, allow around 1150 total lines (to allow time to sweep back to top-left between frames); so 1150 lines/frame * 72 frames/sec = (x dots/sec) / (1350 dots/line) now solve for x to get the dot clock, and to double check the formula, make sure that all the units cancel out. x dots/sec = 1150 lines/frame * 72 frames/sec * 1350 dots/line yep, line / line * frame / frame * dots / sec = dots / sec and you need a dot clock of 111,780,000 dots/sec > > Dot Clock Per Second > Total Horizontal Pixels Per Line = -------------------------- > Horizontal Scanning Rate This is right, dots / line * line / sec = dots/sec > > Since my refresh rate must be at 72hz to sync with the HP1097C: > > Dot Clock > Refresh Rate = ------------------------------------------------- > Horizontal Frame Length * Vertical Frame Length frames / sec = (dots / sec) / (dots / line * lines / frame) = (dots / sec) / (dots / frame) = frames / sec yep > > So, it's really more constructive to think of this as how many > pixels _total_ do I need to display in order to get a 72 hz vertical > scan rate with any arbitrary dot clock? In this case I need > > Dot Clock > Total Pixels Per Frame (HFLxVFL) = ------------- > Refresh Rate You did algebra on above, correct > > Since I know my Horizontal Pixels Per Line, I can use this to > determine the number of vertical lines which will support a 72 hz > refresh rate.... hmmm, this is where things get sticky. We'll start > with a DCL of 10Mhz... Why? That is too slow a dot clock to be useful. You should work backwards - figure out what resolution you want, find the corresponding dot clock, pick the closest supported dot clock to the one you calculated, and then calculate forward again to figure out what resolution you can actually get. You can also play with the blanking intervals, because the monitor has a minimum time that it takes for the gun to scan back to the beginning of the next line (or next frame), but no maximum time. If your supported dot clock is a little too slow, you can waste the time in the blanking interval to keep a standard resolution, or else optimize the resolution to use up all the available time/line. But with a fixed frequency monitor, you must also keep the horizontal and vertical scan rates in "range" - however wide that happens to be. So really, with those two constraints plus your quantized available dot clocks, that's why "fixed frequency" also means "fixed resolution". If the monitor was designed for 1280 x 1024, the card must output about that many dots in each frame and at the correct frame rate. You could output half the dots per line, and also halve the dot clock, and halve all the other values (front porch, back porch, vertical blanking interval, etc.) but if you tried to also cut the vertical resolution in half, you'd violate the line rate constraint. So as you say below, line doubling makes a lot of sense; you could simulate 640 x 480 on a 1280 x 960 screen by halving the dot clock and line-doubling each line. Text mode can be simulated by custom programming on the graphics chip, so that it actually produces dot data at 640 x 480. Keep in mind the monitor will have "total bandwidth" limitations too - it might not be able to accept too fast a dot clock even if you don't exceed the horizontal scan rate or frame rate. > BTW: no one responded to this message, so I guess no one I'm sorry, I must have missed it. Normally that subject would catch my eye. :-) > knew the answer. I received a responce to a USENET post about > this and thought there might be some interest in the group. > The VGA spec supports 'doublescan' mode for low resolution > compatability with CGA apps. This essentially forces the card Cool, makes sense, I didn't know that was a standard. I used to have a DOS CGA simulator for the Hercules card, several years ago, that must have worked this way also; simulating 640 x 200 on a 720 x 400-something display. The displayable area was smaller too, so evidently they only used 640 of the available 720 dots across. It was very useful for playing old CGA games on my mono card anyhow. > to draw each horizontal line twice, thus doubling the refresh > rate (or your vertical resolution in half at the same refresh > rate) at any arbitrary horizontal scan rate. Well, some > chipsets (like the 968, Matrox Millenium, and most ATI > chipsets), allow for tripplescanning which does exactly what > one would expect... it scans each horizontal line three times > before skipping down to the next line, thus allowing one to > drop down to a third of the vertical resolution at the same > refresh rate (same horizontal rate always, of course). Hmmm, so 1024 / 3 = 341, 960 / 3 = 320, I don't see how that would be very useful since there aren't many (any?) modes that have vertical res. in the 320-340ish range. Maybe it could be stretched a little to get 640 x 400. Quad-scan would be useful for doing 320 x 200, or they could just be wasteful with memory and do 4 pixels in VRAM for every pixel and get 640 x 400 out of it. 800 x 600 would just be plain nasty. :-) > > OK. XFree86 and SVGAlib don't support tripplescan mode, but > they do support doublescan mode because it's part of the VGA > spec. Tripplescan is vendor specific, and so thus is enabled > in different ways for each chipset. I'm attempting to hack > svgalib to support tripplescan for the S3/968... waiting for XFree you mean, or svgalib? > the 968 docs to arrive so I can find the register and register > values to set for my adapter. The rest seems fairly easy, just > hack in parsing for 'tripplescan' on the modeline and such. > > Why does this matter to you? Well, if you have an Hitachi > HM-4119, HP1097C, or somesuch fixed freq monitor, getting it to > work under Linux is pretty easy once you know the trick. Why > buy a $1500 monitor when you've got a perfectly fine one > sitting on your VaxStation 3100? Well, for the purposes of > this list, why not just use the 3100 as the xterm... but that > defeats the purpose of this message. ;-) Yep, I've been wanting to do this for years. I did it briefly with that Vermont card (and kept the hercules card also, for text mode, because the Vermont card made no attempt to support any standard modes at all; it was really intended to be a secondary display for CAD) but couldn't do any newer Windows or X with it. It also had an interesting high-level proprietary command language for drawing the primitives; I got the impression from its sketchy docs that you could actually send textual commands to its I/O port and it would interpret them in real-time. That and being an ISA card made it kindof slow. And it only had enough VRAM to do 16 colors, and Vermont wanted an arm and a leg to upgrade to 256 colors. My SuperMac monitor worked fine with my ATI All-in-Wonder, but only in Windows 95, for which there is a nice driver that lets you tweak every parameter. Tweaking similarly might be possible, if harder, in X, but I haven't tried it yet. Unfortunately the Win95 ATI driver won't tell me the numbers to plug into X modelines; I wish it would, but there are just these arrow buttons on the screen to adjust position, size, etc. My experience has been, if you are in the ballpark and the monitor is behaving itself, you can tweak it a little bit to adjust size and position; but then all of a sudden it will just go bonkers, and to get back to where you were right before that, you have to overshoot and then edge your way back (not moving the mouse, because you can't see the on-screen button anymore!) So reproducing the same results with xvidtune's tricky interface would be difficult. Someday, maybe somebody will produce a video card with a video-scaling chip built-in, so that you can multiply dots by something other than a whole number. This is the sort of thing that's already being done for LCD video projectors, video digitizers that can put the image into an arbitrarily-sized window (like my All-in-Wonder), the digital HDTVs now being designed, and maybe even some of the better laptop displays. I don't see why if they can do it for TV input they can't do it on the output signal as well. As the dot clock asks for each output dot, the chip would just have to take into account the colors of the adjacent dots, and blend smoothly; so to avoid having to read VRAM at, say, 9x dot clock, it would have to have some fast registers to store the values of the adjacent dots temporarily, and it could then read VRAM at a mere 3x dot clock. Or, it could store 3 lines in its fast memory and read the line past the next one during each horizontal blanking interval. Maybe the need for fast VRAM is the limiting factor; no, because actually scanning at 1280 x 960 requires 4x the speed of scanning at 640 x 480, whereas simulating 640 x 480 at a dot clock to achieve 1280 x 960 only requires reading VRAM at 3x the rate. So I don't know why this hasn't been done. Maybe Photon does this, I'm not sure. I think I'm going to post this on a newsgroup or two and see if we get any better answers. -- _______ KB7PWD @ KC7Y.AZ.US.NOAM ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) Shawn T. Rutledge http://www.goodnet.com/~ecloud __) | | \_____________________________________________________________ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Apr 14 00:07:01 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Thoughts about a Classiccmp private newsgroup Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980413092417.5a078776@ricochet.net> At 08:32 AM 4/11/98 PDT, you wrote: >Wait a second, ARE there private newsgroups on this topic? I thought >it was just an idea everyone proposed but never did... Not that I know of. If there are, they're not letting me in. (A good idea anyway, I suppose.) >>It has. It comes up every now and then on every mailing list. What >>usually happens is that those who want a newsgroup go off a create a >>newsgroup, and the ones who can't access or don't like newsgroups stick I was speaking of mailing lists in general. As in the Land Rover list, which after many such suggestions finally split into Series and Coil Sprung lists, and now also has a newsgroup. Sometimes it goes the other way; I suspect rec.equestrian was around long before the dressage list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Apr 14 00:07:23 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: Asshole Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980413103736.6ed75d22@ricochet.net> At 12:28 PM 4/12/98 +0000, you wrote: >> I promise that we CAN. I didn't say anything about willing to. However, >> should I come across one, you'll be the first to know. >> Tim D. Hotze >> >Is this a promise? >> > >> > I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE >> >> somewhere for you. But if you did, would you want to risk your own reputation by sending it to him? Goodness knows, it might not have the right serial number or something, and then you'd be branded a con man for life! 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From dastar at wco.com Tue Apr 14 00:18:57 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: AE Z-80 for Apple ][e In-Reply-To: <19980413225529.27563@merit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Nick Amato wrote: > There's an "AE Z-80 plus" card in it. It's made by Applied Engineering > and the date codes are 82-83. Did this card facilitate TRS-80 > emulation, or did it just allow one to run things that needed more > power than the 6502? That would be cool but nothing of the sort. It's simply a Z80 board so you can run CP/M applications on it. You still need the AE CP/M system disk to make this work. > P.S. Is any of this stuff rare? No. AE was one of the more popular manufacturers of Apple ][ peripherals and millions of //e's were made. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 14 00:33:48 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: BYTE mags available in Modesto, CA In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980413092417.5a078776@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Last week I drove (and drove) to Modesto for that collection of BYTEs I mentioned in a previous message. What I didn't mention was that all of them didn't fit in my Miata (not a great ClassicCmp car, but then I collect portables). So... If somebody is willing to drive out to Modesto to pick up the remainder of the BYTEs, approximately 91-present, they'll be there for another week or so before they get thrown out. (I find these to be great historical references, and if you think the 90's were boring, maybe you won't think so 10 years from now.) Send me email if you want the prof's email address. -- Doug From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Apr 13 19:40:06 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question In-Reply-To: References: <19980413225529.27563@merit.edu> Message-ID: <199804140440.XAA05195@trailingedge.com> I went to power up my AT&T 6300, which hasn't been up for about 4 years, and noticed that the PSU fan was coming on but the drives and motherboard didn't seem to be getting power. I opened up the system and was surprised to find the power supply was corroding. Now I'm not a PSU expert by any means so this was unexpected. The upper motherboard appears to be ok but I haven't checked the lower motherboard yet. It appears I can pull the PSU out and replace it but I'm curious as to why it began corroding in the first place. You can see pictures of it on my web site on the AT&T 6300 page or at: http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/attpwr1.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/attpwr2.jpg Any ideas? Also, anyone have a spare PSU? I don't really want to go buy another AT&T 6300 just for this but suspect the PSU won't be easy to obtain otherwise. Thanks for any help. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Apr 13 19:52:52 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:21 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 on a IBM PC In-Reply-To: References: <19980413225529.27563@merit.edu> Message-ID: <199804140452.XAA05204@trailingedge.com> I picked up an IBM 5150 a while back so I went to the Unofficial CP/M Web Site and downloaded the distribution images of CP/M-86 for the PC. Then I hit my first hurtle, I had to create the disks on a 360K drive. The only ones I had were on PC's without harddisk except for my AT&T 6300, which is dead but that's another message. So I pulled the floppy drives from the AT&T and plugged them into my 486. Of course Windows 95 didn't like the program which created the disks so I had to find a DOS boot disk and but finally I was able to create the floppies. Finally I'm booting CP/M-86 on the PC and loving every bit of it. You can see the operation on the IBM PC page at my web site. Another old machine lives! ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Apr 13 20:57:08 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question In-Reply-To: <199804140440.XAA05195@trailingedge.com> References: Message-ID: <199804140553.BAA14452@mail.cgocable.net> > motherboard yet. It appears I can pull the PSU out and replace it > but I'm curious as to why it began corroding in the first place. You > can see pictures of it on my web site on the AT&T 6300 page or at: David, Wow! Looks like something have exploded inside and left there, eating away those metals...or a cat had sprayed it or mouse have known to get inside via a open card slot and pee. And leave rice sized BM's inside. This kind of corrsion looks like much liquid have left in there, judging by the patterns of corrsion. Did something have dripped on that computer? High humidry is out, you have good metals anywhere else because I had some that was stored inside a closet with high humidry and came out heavily corroded clone power supply box. BTW, what kind of camera and type of lens used you have used to take this pics? That's very close up work and very sharp. Jason D. > > http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/attpwr1.jpg > http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/attpwr2.jpg > > Any ideas? Also, anyone have a spare PSU? I don't really want to go > buy another AT&T 6300 just for this but suspect the PSU won't be easy > to obtain otherwise. > > Thanks for any help. > > > ----- > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@trailingedge.com > http://www.trailingedge > > email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From kkant at tiger.hastings.esu9.k12.ne.us Tue Apr 14 01:08:57 1998 From: kkant at tiger.hastings.esu9.k12.ne.us (Ken Kant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: XPS 100 Question Message-ID: I recently received a BULL XPS 100 mini frame from out local college with all the manuals and disks.. etc It is a unix box, and I was curious if anyone has had any experience with these things? And if they can point me in the right direction to get this thing to boot :> Thanx Kenny From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Apr 13 20:07:41 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question In-Reply-To: <199804140553.BAA14452@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199804140440.XAA05195@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199804140507.AAA05227@trailingedge.com> On 14 Apr 98 at 1:57, jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Wow! Looks like something have exploded inside and left there, > eating away those metals...or a cat had sprayed it or mouse have > known to get inside via a open card slot and pee. And leave rice > sized BM's inside. This kind of corrsion looks like much liquid have > left in there, judging by the patterns of corrsion. Did something > have dripped on that computer? High humidry is out, you have good > metals anywhere else because I had some that was stored inside a > closet with high humidry and came out heavily corroded clone power > supply box. I thought about that but the system has been sealed fairly well since I put it in my climate controlled storage space. Still, it does look like something was spilt on it. No open slots or anything so I don't know what could have gotten inside. I have another AT&T PSU I've been using to power the hard drive on my Amiga 1000. I may find a new power supply for the hard drive and use that one as a replacement for the corroded one. Still, it would be nice to know if something was dumped inside or the PSU itself released something. > BTW, what kind of camera and type of lens used you have used to take > this pics? That's very close up work and very sharp. I used a Kodak DC210 digital camera I borrowed from work. It's an $800 camera so I'd hope it would take decent pictures. :-) I'm using it to redo most of the images on my web site. It's a great camera. And those images were taken at it's lower resolution. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Apr 14 08:05:52 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... Message-ID: <13347729110.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> This is new. Just brought the uVAX up again. I sent ONE message to Usenet mentioning the address. I now made it to some luser's spam list! This is the new thing... The spam appears to be in Japanese? I guess this will be the first spammer I mail that can UNDERSTAND what they're being mailed! (A-CNH) The question is, just out of curiosity, when did Usenet deteriorate to the point that spamming started? Was it around the time AOL let people on Internet? :) (J/k!) ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 08:27:38 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question Message-ID: <19980414132739.3982.qmail@hotmail.com> I don't have graphical internet access, so I can't see the pictures, but could it be that electrolyte spilled from one of the capactiors? Just an idea... > >On 14 Apr 98 at 1:57, jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > >> Wow! Looks like something have exploded inside and left there, >> eating away those metals...or a cat had sprayed it or mouse have >> known to get inside via a open card slot and pee. And leave rice >> sized BM's inside. This kind of corrsion looks like much liquid have >> left in there, judging by the patterns of corrsion. Did something >> have dripped on that computer? High humidry is out, you have good >> metals anywhere else because I had some that was stored inside a >> closet with high humidry and came out heavily corroded clone power >> supply box. > >I thought about that but the system has been sealed fairly well since >I put it in my climate controlled storage space. Still, it does look >like something was spilt on it. No open slots or anything so I don't >know what could have gotten inside. > >I have another AT&T PSU I've been using to power the hard drive on my >Amiga 1000. I may find a new power supply for the hard drive and use >that one as a replacement for the corroded one. Still, it would be >nice to know if something was dumped inside or the PSU itself >released something. > >> BTW, what kind of camera and type of lens used you have used to take >> this pics? That's very close up work and very sharp. > >I used a Kodak DC210 digital camera I borrowed from work. It's an >$800 camera so I'd hope it would take decent pictures. :-) I'm using >it to redo most of the images on my web site. It's a great camera. >And those images were taken at it's lower resolution. > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@trailingedge.com >http://www.trailingedge > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 14 08:28:40 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole" (Apr 14, 1:36) References: Message-ID: <9804141428.ZM8428@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 14, 1:36, Tony Duell wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Isn't a DX11 an IBM channel interface? Originally a big cabinet with a lot > > of flip chips and lamps? I've seen two, working. > > That's right. > Where on earth did you see one of those? A few summers ago, Leeds University were getting rid of an Amdahl mainframe and supporting equipment, which included several PDP-11s and two DX11s. I managed to invite myself along with a couple of friends, one of whom acquired a complete working DX11 and one in bits, plus cables. I think there was a doc set as well. I got an 11/73 with a much smaller 3rd party Qbus version, which I've since passed on, as the same friend actually has a 360 which he's hoping to get going again. > I really must cable one of mine up again, re-read the printset, and > figure out what on earth to use it for... First find a System/360 :-) Then find a lot of space with a strong floor. Jim put his in a room which he'd prepared with a false floor. Unfortunately the materials supplier had provided the wrong grade of board, and apparently the main unit rolled in OK, but when it came to its proper position, there was a crunching sound, and the 360 settled a few inches as several of the castors punched through the floor panels. Jim wasn't too pleased (he did get it fixed, though). BTW, the little DX11-alike in the 11/73 was accompanied by a "Camtech Ethernet QBus Interface". It's a quad-high Q-bus board, with a 68000 and a 68450 (PGA types), a 68230, 68564, some memory, and the usual AMD ethernet chip set. There's a 20-pin header for the ether i/f, and two 26-pin ribbon cable connectors near a pile of 26LS30s and MC3486's, so I assume this is some sort of terminal concentrator or PAD (there's also a 2.4576MHz xtal, which implies standard 300/600/1200... baud rates). I was told the firmware didn't support TCP/IP, but some other protocol. Anybody know what that would be? Is it any use for anything? Can it be changed to use TCP/IP? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Tue Apr 14 10:46:45 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: Cassette BASIC in IBM PCs Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980414084645.007c2b80@wingate> Here's one I've never run into, oddly enough. IBM PCs 5150 throrugh 5170 had the BASIC ROM and BASIC.EXE and BASICA.EXE included with PC-DOS through 4.0 just jump to the code on the ROM. Later models (PS/2s) still have the Cassette BASIC, but don't seem to be able to run the PC-DOS BASICs. Did IBM break the BASIC ROM after the 5170 model? -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 14 09:01:14 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question In-Reply-To: "David Williams" "AT&T 6300 PSU Question" (Apr 14, 0:40) References: <19980413225529.27563@merit.edu> <199804140440.XAA05195@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <9804141501.ZM8473@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 14, 0:40, David Williams wrote: > Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question > I went to power up my AT&T 6300, which hasn't been up for about 4 > years, and noticed that the PSU fan was coming on but the drives and > motherboard didn't seem to be getting power. I opened up the system > and was surprised to find the power supply was corroding. > You can see pictures of it on my web site on the AT&T 6300 page Jason's comment about liquid sounds about right. It looks more like something was spilt onto it, than as if something self-destructed. Anyway, it's usually electrolytic capacitors that self-destruct in that way, and that normally happens when there's a voltage there. > Any ideas? Also, anyone have a spare PSU? I don't really want to go > buy another AT&T 6300 just for this but suspect the PSU won't be easy > to obtain otherwise. I'd attempt a repair, or at least some further investigation. The case looks pretty yucky but from the pictures, the physical damage might not be that great. I'd take it apart and attack the case with a wire brush or steel wool, and a very light touch of oil or WD40. The terminals don't look too bad at all, a little brushing (stiff toothbrush preferred, or a brass wire brush or fine steel wool) and a little WD40 should work wonders. Make sure you wipe off any excess WD40, though. Depending on how bad it is inside, it might be worth washing, but do make sure that (1) any capacitors are discharged before you get it wet, and (2) everything is *completely* dry before you try applying power! Again, a toothbrush is a useful tool. In many similar PSUs, the fan is driven from the 12V line. If that's the case here, it implies that at least part of the circuitry is working, which is very encouraging. Perhaps only the 5V line is dead. It's hard to suggest much more without more information, and without seeing the inside. If you do try anything, apart from the obvious precautions, be aware that there are some very high voltages inside switch mode PSUs, as high as 300V. Also, many PSUs won't operate correctly without a load on at least the 5V line; at best, they won't regulate properly, at worst, they can be damaged. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Apr 14 09:22:45 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: <13347729110.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980414072245.00e4aa30@mail.jps.net> At 06:05 14-04-98 -0700, you wrote: >This is new. Just brought the uVAX up again. I sent ONE message to Usenet >mentioning the address. >I now made it to some luser's spam list! >The question is, just out of curiosity, when did Usenet deteriorate to the >point that spamming started? Uhhhh... where have you been? ;-) The spam problem on Usenet has been going on for at least the last three years. It happened shortly after NSF lifted the ban on commercial traffic and the 'net became better known to the public. Sure enough, a bunch of marketeers with more greed than brains saw Usenet as a vast new territory instead of what it was intended to be. The spam started. It has been throttled back to a degree, thanks largely to the efforts of the anti-spam crowd (consisting mainly of sysadmins), but it is still there. Best advice I can give for posting to Usenet is to put a munged address in the 'From' and 'Reply-To' fields. One of my faves is 'SpamTrap@[127.0.0.1]' Then, put your real address as a phrase in the text body of the message, along with some special characters inserted. Example: kyr{rin} a-t j[p]s ot n=e=t Perfectly readable to a human, gibberish to a spam-bot (those nasty little cyber-bugs that crawl around the newsgroups harvesting addresses). >Was it around the time AOL let people on Internet? :) Actually, the AOL crowd is more often chosen as a target than the experienced folk. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 14 10:06:46 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... Message-ID: <199804141506.AA15456@world.std.com> My PS/2 Model 70 is a 386, released around 1990. It is the most recent machine I have seen to have ROM BASIC, with IBM DOS 3.3's BASIC.EXE jumping just fine. > >Here's one I've never run into, oddly enough. IBM PCs 5150 throrugh 5170 >had the BASIC ROM and BASIC.EXE and BASICA.EXE included with PC-DOS through >4.0 just jump to the code on the ROM. > >Later models (PS/2s) still have the Cassette BASIC, but don't seem to be >able to run the PC-DOS BASICs. Did IBM break the BASIC ROM after the 5170 >model? > >-- >David Wollmann | >dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. >DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM >http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 14 12:28:02 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: This is new..." (Apr 14, 11:06) References: <199804141506.AA15456@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9804141828.ZM8988@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 14, 11:06, Allison J Parent wrote: > Try about 5-6 years and it was there before but you could get the offender > tossed before that. Also When AOL opened to the net it seemed to add to > the fray. ISTR an article on alt.folklore.computers a year or so back, giving the name of the lawyer who sent the first officially-recorded unsolicited email spam. IIRC he lost his account. I can't remember the details, so it might be hard to find (and I'm not sure of the details, but 5-6 years ago sounds about right). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Apr 14 13:03:27 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980414072245.00e4aa30@mail.jps.net> Message-ID: <13347783283.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Where have I been?] Here. I am a sysadmin, and I know all about spam and what to do about it... :) I was just curious when it started. ------- From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 14 13:18:29 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: <9804141828.ZM8988@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > ISTR an article on alt.folklore.computers a year or so back, giving the name of > the lawyer who sent the first officially-recorded unsolicited email spam. IIRC > he lost his account. I can't remember the details, so it might be hard to find > (and I'm not sure of the details, but 5-6 years ago sounds about right). His name was Kantor (sp?), it was usenet spam rather than email spam, and he was basically the first *unrepentant* spammer. Before that incident, you could intimidate spammers into stopping. This guy even went on to write a book on "internet marketing". -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 14 13:24:55 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: First Spam (Re: This is new...) In-Reply-To: <13347783283.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: Ah, here it is. It wasn't that long ago: From: nike@indirect.com (Laurence Canter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,ott.general Subject: Green Card Lottery- Final One? Date: 12 Apr 1994 08:00:55 GMT Green Card Lottery 1994 May Be The Last One! THE DEADLINE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED. The Green Card Lottery is a completely legal program giving away a certain annual allotment of Green Cards to persons born in certain countries. The lottery program was scheduled to continue on a permanent basis. However, recently, Senator Alan J Simpson introduced a bill into the U. S. Congress which could end any future lotteries. THE 1994 LOTTERY IS SCHEDULED TO TAKE PLACE SOON, BUT IT MAY BE THE VERY LAST ONE. PERSONS BORN IN MOST COUNTRIES QUALIFY, MANY FOR FIRST TIME. The only countries NOT qualifying are: Mexico; India; P.R. China; Taiwan, Philippines, North Korea, Canada, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland), Jamaica, Domican Republic, El Salvador and Vietnam. Lottery registration will take place soon. 55,000 Green Cards will be given to those who register correctly. NO JOB IS REQUIRED. THERE IS A STRICT JUNE DEADLINE. THE TIME TO START IS NOW!! For FREE information via Email, send request to cslaw@indirect.com -- _________________________________________________________________ Canter & Siegel, Immigration Attorneys 3333 E Camelback Road, Ste 250, Phoenix AZ 85018 USA cslaw@indirect.com telephone (602)661-3911 Fax (602) 451-7617 From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Apr 14 14:56:12 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: AT MultiProt Comm Card References: <35281F0F.A04E628E@bbtel.com> <352854ED.5B89@gamewood.net> Message-ID: <3533BF5B.3AAED91E@bbtel.com> Charles A. Davis wrote: > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > I have an IBM AT Multiprotocol Communications Adapter, new, in the > > original carton, with the original vinyl booklet and 5.25" disk for > > sale. It's only missing the cable which can easily be made from two 25 > > pin d-sub connectors (1M, 1F) and a piece of cable. > > > > Anyone in the US want or need this? $10 which includes the postage. It > > goes to the big dumpster in the sky if no one lays claim to it by Friday > > the 10th. > Hi Russ: > If nobody else asks. I'll commit to $10 -- Give it a few days, and if > nobody else hollars, let me know. If you still want this drop me a note and send me a $10 money order and it's yours. Need to know soon though. I assume the address in your footer is also your shipping address? Mine is below for mailing purposes. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Apr 14 15:04:34 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: <9804141828.ZM8988@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 14, 98 05:28:02 pm Message-ID: <9804141904.AA12069@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 999 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980414/4b04fa09/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Apr 14 15:17:34 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: Oops Message-ID: <3533C45D.5520AD99@bbtel.com> Sorry about the extra public traffic (and this one too). I didn't look at the "reply to" on Charles' message. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 14 14:23:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... Message-ID: <199804141923.AA18742@world.std.com> On 1998-04-12 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet.co.uk :... I only hope that there is a "silent :majority" who does not speak but disapproves them and this is the :only reason that keeps me from leaving conmans and their helpers to :their destiny by leaving this list. please, since you clearly haven't found any, assume you are wrong and bugger off. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... From lisard at zetnet.co.uk Tue Apr 14 14:45:43 1998 From: lisard at zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: Asshole---drop this too! Message-ID: <199804141945.UAA13522@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> On 1998-04-12 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet.co.uk :I think we all would expect all the :subscribers to this list (and the other lists as well) to conduct :themselves in a civilized and honourable way [...] rotflmao From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 15:34:59 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 Service Pack (a bit off-topic) Message-ID: <19980414203459.5002.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anyone have the Service Pack 1 for OS/2 2.0, or know of an archive for it? IBM has nothing about it on their site. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 18:18:00 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: tractor feeders Message-ID: <19980414231800.26378.qmail@hotmail.com> I have a minor problem with a dot matrix printer, and its feeder. It is an Epson LQ-500. It has a removable set of tractors, which mounts on top. However, they mount on the output end. This means that there must be paper in the tractors that is beyond the print head, which means that about a sheet of paper must be wasted. Could someone explain to me what is the idea behind this system? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From wirehead at retrocomputing.com Tue Apr 14 19:23:16 1998 From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: <199804141923.AA18742@world.std.com> Message-ID: > I'd been on the 'net via their gateways since before '87. I was greatly > sadend when I the words went out the internet would permit commercial > ops. [Before you read this...especially you Allison...the following isn't in response to your posting as much as it is my thoughts on the issue in general. I agree with you Allison. The Internet is a mess! I can spend an hour expounding on the economics behind why that is but it's not appropriate here.] I've replied now three times and each time sounds like a rant so I'll keep it simple. Not all of us ISPs are evil and unconcerned with the Internet. I run a good, solid business with a 95% customer retention rate calculated over 4 years. I don't do business with spammers or pornographers and have written my contracts so that I can immediately terminate any customer that violates Netiquette. I've been yelled at about that...that I'm over-reacting or being mean...but if I have to spend an hour wading through spam complaints (when I could be spending that hour writing a CGI script for someone at $75/hour) then I immediately go in the hole financially on that customer in terms of opportunity cost. Some of us who started in the early days of commercialization wanted the Internet to be like we were used to it being when we used it from college or businesses in the late 80s and early 90s. You can thank CompuServe, AOL, and hordes of know-nothing little ISPs with wads of cash to substitute for business sense for the current situation. To put this back on topic, I started my ISP with a 386 running Linux...cobbled from parts found in dumpsters and friends closets LITERALLY, a couple modems and $500 of capital. That business now accounts for the payrolls of half a dozen folks and many thousands of dollars a month of PROPER web-based (no spam) online commerce. Now that's retrocomputing AND economic growth. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead From peacock at simconv.com Tue Apr 14 18:36:40 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: tractor feeders Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E87F@mail.simconv.com> > From: Max Eskin [mailto:maxeskin@hotmail.com] > there must be paper in the tractors that is beyond the print head, > which means that about a sheet of paper must be wasted. Could someone > explain to me what is the idea behind this system? At one time nearly all tractor feed printers pulled instead of pushed. Demand documents (i.e. tear off right above the print head) was not a concern for most printers. Reports were printed in batches, then separated by operators. Also, the paper was less likely to jam if you pull it through the paper path, rather than try to push it through. Ever see a paper jam on a 1200LPM chain printer? The operator could spend a good 15-20 minutes clearing out bits of shredded paper. Computer time was more expensive than the paper, no one cared if a few pages got wasted for form feeds. Jack peacock From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 14 18:36:04 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > ISTR an article on alt.folklore.computers a year or so back, giving the name of > > the lawyer who sent the first officially-recorded unsolicited email spam. IIRC > > he lost his account. I can't remember the details, so it might be hard to find > > (and I'm not sure of the details, but 5-6 years ago sounds about right). > > His name was Kantor (sp?), it was usenet spam rather than email spam, and > he was basically the first *unrepentant* spammer. Before that incident, > you could intimidate spammers into stopping. This guy even went on to > write a book on "internet marketing". > > -- Doug And to make matters even worse, it was a husband and wife lawyer team! - don From peacock at simconv.com Tue Apr 14 18:50:57 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E880@mail.simconv.com> > From: Wirehead Prime [mailto:wirehead@retrocomputing.com] > Not all of us ISPs are evil and unconcerned with the > Internet. I run a > good, solid business with a 95% customer retention rate > calculated over 4 > years. I don't do business with spammers or pornographers and have > written my contracts so that I can immediately terminate any customer > that violates Netiquette. I've been yelled at about that...that I'm > ... > Some of us who started in the early days of commercialization > wanted the > Internet to be like we were used to it being when we used it > from college > or businesses in the late 80s and early 90s. You can thank > CompuServe, > AOL, and hordes of know-nothing little ISPs with wads of cash to > substitute for business sense for the current situation. It's easy to blame novice users and get rich quick spammers, but I can't agree with you. I look on the 'Net as evolution in action. Right now we have the feeding frenzy of spammers drowning us in unwanted email. The easy, and wrong, solution is to force them to stop. The right way is to make it uneconomical for them to send spam. How? I don't really know, I just ignore it, sort of like background static noise on a shortwave radio. But consider, what kind of response rate do spammers get? Now junk snail mailers have to actually pay per piece, although at a reduced rate. They have to make the junk mail attractive to readers so they can get a high enough response rate to justify the mailing. Maybe we need the same mechanism for mass commercial postings. In other words, the ISP specifies in the terms of service that mass commercial mailings (aka spam) are charged at the same mailing rates as the local post office, something around 20 cents per item. Now you have a legal means to get back if the ISP catches a spammer, because they are liable for the contracted costs. And just to bring it back on topic...when consumer PCs came out (IBM, PET, Atari, Apple, etc.) those of us who built and used "real" micros (S-100s of course) lamented that fact that the microcomputer market was being overrun by large corporations bent on destroying the laissez-faire market of the mid 70s. Sound familiar? Jack "I use an IMSAI, not those toy computers" Peacock From peacock at simconv.com Tue Apr 14 18:53:24 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E881@mail.simconv.com> > And to make matters even worse, it was a husband and wife lawyer team! Birds of a feather, um, make that vultures, flock together... Jack "birdbrain" Peacock From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 14 16:14:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: neat find In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980413202851.006c0f0c@pop3.concentric.net> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Apr 13, 98 08:28:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1405 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980414/74aee241/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 14 17:22:09 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question In-Reply-To: <9804141501.ZM8473@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 14, 98 02:01:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4172 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980414/17234777/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 14 17:07:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole In-Reply-To: <9804141428.ZM8428@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 14, 98 01:28:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2545 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980414/e9daaa8c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 14 19:08:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: tractor feeders In-Reply-To: <19980414231800.26378.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Apr 14, 98 04:18:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980415/a91d862f/attachment.ksh From emu at ecubics.com Tue Apr 14 19:22:42 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: neat find Message-ID: <19980415001109.AAA24455@1Cust158.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi tony, you know where to get the amd assembler for this stuff ? cheers, emanuel ---------- > From: Tony Duell > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: neat find > Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:14 PM > > > > > today at goodwill I found a Advance Micro Device AM2900 Evaluation & > > Learning Kit in the it's box (very nice design on it) with one worksheet. > > the unit was only $5. > > The comment 'you lucky beggar' springs to mind !. > > > The AMD 2900 series of chips were essentially a build-it-yourself CPU. > The main ones were : > > The 2901 - a 4 bit ALU + registers. You could cascade these to give you as > many bits as you wanted (in multiples of 4). There was also a fast carry > generator, equivalent to the 74182. Was that the 2902? > > The 2903 was an enchanced 2901 AFAIK. I never used it. > > Then there were the 2909 and 2911 4-bit microcode sequencers. You > cascaded those as well to access whatever size control store you wanted. > Add a bit of jump logic, and write the microcode to control your CPU. > > For simpler designes there was the 2910 12 bit sequencer which couldn't > easily be extended (*). That would seqeunce a 4K control store, and had > some of the jump control logic built-in. > > I've done a bit with these chips, and was reading the data books earlier > today, actually. Great pity they're no longer made... > > (*) PERQ systems used a 2910 as the sequencer on the 4K PERQ CPU board. > The 16K CPU board also used a 2910 with a '2 bit kludge' to provide the > extra address lines. The pun on '2 bit' is intentional, and will be > understood by anybody who's ever written PERQ microcode... > > > > > > > -tony From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 20:01:10 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: tractor feeders Message-ID: <19980415010111.28277.qmail@hotmail.com> Actually, my favorites are the ones where the tractors are right on the platen. No jams and no wasted paper. I once had an Epson MX-150 that jammed something awful. I got rid of that. An example of the former is the Okidata 120, which I used with my C-64. But to tell you the truth, I can't stand wasted paper almost as much as wasted hardware ;) >Most older dot-matrix printers had tractors after the platten/printhead. >Some of them, like my Sanders units have 2 sets of tractors, before and >after the platten. > >Yes, it does mean that you waste a sheet of paper when you finish >printing something - you have to do an extra formfeed. On the other hand, >I'm quite sure it saves a lot of paper due to the reduction in the number >of paper jams. A lot of 'push' type tractors seem to be great at mangling >paper... > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 20:08:46 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... Message-ID: <19980415010846.1494.qmail@hotmail.com> [SNIP] >shortwave radio. Speaking of shortwave, imagine if the FCC authorize commerce on ham radio! Ugh... I am completely unfamiliar with S-100 systems, so could you please explain... were S-100 technologically superior to PCs (i.e. IBM PC 5150), or just aesthetically? As far as I know, they used an older processor... Was it just an issue of being used to them? As for laissez-faire, I never have believed in it. It makes society too concerned about money. This is proven when complete crap hardware is released now, and people don't care because it's good _financially_ >And just to bring it back on topic...when consumer PCs came out (IBM, >PET, Atari, Apple, etc.) those of us who built and used "real" micros >(S-100s of course) lamented that fact that the microcomputer market was >being overrun by large corporations bent on destroying the laissez-faire >market of the mid 70s. Sound familiar? > Jack "I use an IMSAI, not those toy computers" Peacock > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue Apr 14 20:09:34 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question Message-ID: <01bd680b$27698e40$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I looked at the pictures, and double checked my Olivetti M24, recently obtained from Andrew Davie. They are the same machine. This one also has a dead power suppy but none of the corrosion. The fan works because it is mains powered, 240v in this case. Hans Olminkhof -----Original Message----- From: David Williams To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 14 April 1998 15:40 Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question I went to power up my AT&T 6300, which hasn't been up for about 4 years, and noticed that the PSU fan was coming on but the drives and motherboard didn't seem to be getting power. I opened up the system and was surprised to find the power supply was corroding. Now I'm not a PSU expert by any means so this was unexpected. The upper motherboard appears to be ok but I haven't checked the lower motherboard yet. It appears I can pull the PSU out and replace it but I'm curious as to why it began corroding in the first place. You can see pictures of it on my web site on the AT&T 6300 page or at: http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/attpwr1.jpg http://www.trailingedge.com/~dlw/comp/images/attpwr2.jpg From wpe at interserv.com Tue Apr 14 21:20:18 1998 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: tractor feeders| Warning, DEC War Story... References: <19980415010111.28277.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35341961.BDF37C78@interserv.com> As an operator trainee at the time, I remember a problem used to happen when a programmer would inadvertantly spool a "binary file" to a lineprinter.. We had an individual, in the Maynard (Ma. DEC), at one point in time, spool a job to the printer that hung off the DECsystem 1090 (serious tractor feeds on that unit!) that took a day and a half, and consumed 24 boxes of "greenbar" (8 1/2 X 14") paper... Myself, and a co-worker, boxed this stuff up, loaded it on a flatbed dolly, and delivered the entire mess, labeled "1 of 24, 2 of 24, 3 of 24" etc. to this individuals office (while they were out on "break").... Shortly afterward, this person's cost center manager called, demanding to know why all of this paper had been delivered, and insisting that his cost center wasn't going to pay for it, and that it must be removed _immediatly_! Our cost center manager calmly informed him that, 1, it was _his_ programmer that queued it to print, and it wasn't up to us to censor print jobs, 2. oh. yes, his cost center _would_ pay for it, and 3. His cost center now owned the 24 boxes of paper, and it was _his_ problem, as to what to do with it... Allison, you may have known some of the participants, they used to reside on ML3-6... Sorry if I digressed too far off topic... Will From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 14 21:30:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: tractor feeders Message-ID: <199804150230.AA13725@world.std.com> "Re: This is new..." (Apr 14, 12:04) References: <9804141904.AA12069@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <9804150316.ZM9562@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 14, 12:04, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > ISTR an article on alt.folklore.computers a year or so back, giving the name > > of the lawyer who sent the first officially-recorded unsolicited email spam. > > I think you're talking about Canter and Siegel, right? While this > wasn't the "first" spam, Canter and Siegel's "GREEN CARD" postings > are among the best well-known, and in many ways the most irritating. > (Canter went on the talk-show circuit after the spam disaster to > promote his book which claimed to show others how to succeed in > internet marketing.) Thanks, Tim, that's what I was thinking of. And thanks to whoever dug out the posting (sorry no attribution, I hit "delete" a bit too quick). Seems my memory was close but not wholly accurate. How unusual :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 14 21:09:59 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: Collecting Philosophy In-Reply-To: Tony Duell "Re: Collecting Philosophy, was Re: Asshole" (Apr 14, 23:07) References: Message-ID: <9804150309.ZM9558@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 14, 23:07, Tony Duell wrote: > Ouch!!!. Even my standard test for floor loading wouldn't have found that > (= Jump up and down hard. If the floor doesn't give way, put the machine > on it and jump up and down again. If it's still OK, it'll probably stay > that way). Jim now has the flooring from our Department's old machine room -- and now I know why those floor panels are so heavy :-) > > BTW, the little DX11-alike in the 11/73 was accompanied by a "Camtech > > Ethernet QBus Interface". > The only thing that reminds me of is the Camtech JNT PADs and iso-ether > PADs used in UK universities as part of the JANET network. I've not got > any, alas (I'd quite like one...), but I seem to remember that at least > the JNT pads were Z-80 based and had a synchronous serial port connection > to the outside world talking some kind of X25... We had several, but they all got cannibalised. They were indeed Z80-based, and had lots of SIOs, DARTs, and a few PIOs in them too. Neat cases as well. > I have no idea what it talked instead of TCP/IP, but it'll probably be > something that was common in the UK at the time. Any ideas? I can look > back through PERQ and Torch XXX manuals to see if anything leaps out.. I've no idea. I imagined that Camtech made other ethernet stuff, and if they could make such a good-looking QBus ethernet i/f I thought there must be more around. I've never found any, though, nor have I ever found anyone who could tell me much about long-gone Camtech (apart from JNT PADs). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 14 21:03:02 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question In-Reply-To: Tony Duell "Re: AT&T 6300 PSU Question" (Apr 14, 23:22) References: Message-ID: <9804150303.ZM9553@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 14, 23:22, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Apr 14, 0:40, David Williams wrote: > > > You can see pictures of it on my web site on the AT&T 6300 page > > Having a text-only machine here, I can't see the pictures, alas... There's a lot of brown/grey corrosion on the top surface near the terminals, and not a lot else visible on the PSU itself, though it looks like there's some on the base of the computer case around the PSU. > > wipe off any excess WD40, though. > > I _hate_ WD40... It's far too easy to misuse and causes too many > problems. I prefer WD40 to machine oil for electricial connections, but I have to agree with Tony that it's very easy to misuse. It should be supplied in micro-syringes, not spray cans, IMNSHO. Or only available on prescription, perhaps. That's why I said to be sure to wipe off the excess. And WD40 should be kept away from moving metal parts. It's sometimes useful as a plastic anti-squeak lubricant, but definitely not for metals. I use CLP-BreakFree for that :-) > and light machine oil. Start with (UK) 600 grit, end with 1000 grit, at > least. I'd clean the screw terminals with dry 600 grit paper and then > contact cleaner. I've seen contact cleaner seriously misused too. Some types leave "a light film" behind -- if you use a little, once. I once had to fix a BBC Micro with faulty ROM sockets; the owner had repeatedly fed it contact cleaner until it was swimming in the stuff. ISTR cleaning most of it off with 1,1,1-TCE and then washing the board in Teepol (industrial grade/laboratory detergent) before it could be attacked with a soldering iron. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 14 22:12:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: neat find Message-ID: <199804150312.AA13323@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Jack Peacock wrote: > But consider, what kind of response rate do spammers get? Now junk > snail mailers have to actually pay per piece, although at a reduced > rate. They have to make the junk mail attractive to readers so they can > get a high enough response rate to justify the mailing. Maybe we need > the same mechanism for mass commercial postings. In other words, the > ISP specifies in the terms of service that mass commercial mailings (aka > spam) are charged at the same mailing rates as the local post office, > something around 20 cents per item. Now you have a legal means to get > back if the ISP catches a spammer, because they are liable for the > contracted costs. There is already something like this. It's called "Cyberpromo". > And just to bring it back on topic...when consumer PCs came out (IBM, > PET, Atari, Apple, etc.) those of us who built and used "real" micros > (S-100s of course) lamented that fact that the microcomputer market was > being overrun by large corporations bent on destroying the laissez-faire > market of the mid 70s. Sound familiar? Basically, as all things that enhance the lives of humans (like computers), the Internet has long since reached its critical mass and has evolved to the point that it is now a basic and necessary business tool. We can lament the fact that it will never be the spam-free, perhaps close-knit community it used to be, but that's the price of progress. I think to wish back the old days is folly. The internet now is far more useful than it has ever been, and will only continue to evolve in a positive direction. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 14 22:40:41 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: Free Kaypro in LA In-Reply-To: <353215BB.25226E31@bbtel.com> Message-ID: Seen at C2K: http://www.classified2000.com/cgi-cls/ad.exe?P1+C220+A0+R27333+Q253040226 -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 14 22:43:10 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: [An off-topic message from Sam!? For shame....] > There is already something like this. It's called "Cyberpromo". Make that *was*. Spamford is out of business. He lost a few too many lawsuits. (I knew lawyers were good for something.) -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 14 23:18:53 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... References: Message-ID: <3534352D.FFC91D33@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > [An off-topic message from Sam!? For shame....] > > > There is already something like this. It's called "Cyberpromo". > > Make that *was*. Spamford is out of business. He lost a few too many > lawsuits. (I knew lawyers were good for something.) That's right. I address my lawyer as "Chum". (He's a fisherman, I'm not. He gets the message.) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From cad at gamewood.net Tue Apr 14 23:19:29 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: AT MultiProt Comm Card References: <35281F0F.A04E628E@bbtel.com> <352854ED.5B89@gamewood.net> <3533BF5B.3AAED91E@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <35343551.2438@gamewood.net> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Charles A. Davis wrote: > > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > > > I have an IBM AT Multiprotocol Communications Adapter, new, in the > > > original carton, with the original vinyl booklet and 5.25" disk for > > > sale. It's only missing the cable which can easily be made from two 25 > > > pin d-sub connectors (1M, 1F) and a piece of cable. > > > > > > Anyone in the US want or need this? $10 which includes the postage. It > > > goes to the big dumpster in the sky if no one lays claim to it by Friday > > > the 10th. > > > Hi Russ: > > If nobody else asks. I'll commit to $10 -- Give it a few days, and if > > nobody else hollars, let me know. > > If you still want this drop me a note and send me a $10 money order and it's > yours. Need to know soon though. I assume the address in your footer is also > your shipping address? Mine is below for mailing purposes. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ # 1714857 > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Russ: The check is in the mail. :-) Well, later today, anyway. Yes, the address in the .sig is correct. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From engine at chac.org Tue Apr 14 23:38:56 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: Floor testing In-Reply-To: References: <9804141428.ZM8428@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980414213856.00f80dd0@pop.batnet.com> At 23:07 4/14/98 +0100, you wrote: >Ouch!!!. Even my standard test for floor loading wouldn't have found that >(= Jump up and down hard. If the floor doesn't give way, put the machine >on it and jump up and down again. If it's still OK, it'll probably stay >that way). You would have liked the storage that the CHAC almost got at the old U. S. Navy base called Hunters Point, on the southeast coast of San Francisco. It was built between 1938 and 1941, all reinforced concrete, and still had yellow-and-black signs all around giving a "not to exceed" on floor loading. On the bottom two floors it was 1000 lb/sq ft and on the top two 800. Unfortunately, at the last minute they backed out of giving us this building and wanted to sell it to us instead, and $850,000 was a bit rich for our blood :-) __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From spc at armigeron.com Wed Apr 15 01:26:31 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E880@mail.simconv.com> from "Jack Peacock" at Apr 14, 98 04:50:57 pm Message-ID: <199804150626.CAA00964@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Jack Peacock once stated: > > But consider, what kind of response rate do spammers get? Now junk > snail mailers have to actually pay per piece, although at a reduced > rate. They have to make the junk mail attractive to readers so they can > get a high enough response rate to justify the mailing. Maybe we need > the same mechanism for mass commercial postings. In other words, the > ISP specifies in the terms of service that mass commercial mailings (aka > spam) are charged at the same mailing rates as the local post office, > something around 20 cents per item. Now you have a legal means to get > back if the ISP catches a spammer, because they are liable for the > contracted costs. Having been involved with a spamming incident with a former client of ours (note former - this incident was the final cause of our breaking relationships, but anyway ... ) I was dismayed at the actual positive responce to the spam the client sent out - nearly 40% was positive! Of course, the other 60% made it clear it wasn't appriciated. Snail junk mailers are estatic when they receive a 3% response rate and usually only expect a 1 or 2% rate. UCE (Unsolicited Commercial Email) is so dirt cheap that even a .1% or .01% may generate enough economic incentive to continue (sadly enough). Then again, having done some work on a list of email addresses [1] it didn't terribly surprise me that nearly half were unusable after applying certain criteria to the addresses [2], so it may be that the only people who are really making money at UCE are those selling email addresses ("500 million email addresses for only $19.95! While supplies last!"), selling spam software ("Send out 500 million messages in 1 hour using a 14.4 connection! Only $59.95! While supplies last!") or doing the actual bulk remailing ("We'll send out 500 million copies of your message to the world for only $9.95! Hurry, while our connections last!"). Sorry, but I can't relate this to the charter of the list, but maybe this is critical enough to to let slip. -spc (Who has an account just for spam mail ... ) [1] One of our web sites has a form that collects email address for people that come to the site. And people do leave their real email address. The ones that know better don't leave a valid email address. [2] Basically, does it match [A-Za-z0-9_]+@[a-zA-Z][A-Za-z0-9_-]+\.['com'|'net'|'edu'...] ? There are ways to make the selection even better, but I'll refrain from going further here. From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 15 02:34:32 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:22 2005 Subject: S-100 tech Summary (was Re: This is new...) Message-ID: <01bd6840$eea75020$64ac31cf@foggy> >I am completely unfamiliar with S-100 systems, so could you please >explain... were S-100 technologically superior to PCs (i.e. IBM >PC 5150), or just aesthetically? As far as I know, they used an >older processor... S-100s started out with an Intel 8080, then Zilog Z80. That was pretty much the end of the 8-bit version, although there were several other variants (8085, NSC 800, Hitachi 64180, Signetics 2650, etc.). Hmm, I never recall seeing a 6502 or 6800 CPU board. Once the S-100 was standardized around the IEEE-696 specifications the good 16 bit systems started appearing. One of the earliest was the 8086 by Seattle Computer Labs (IIRC). Famous because it came with the ancestor of MS-DOS, which Microsoft later bought for their IBM PC deal. You might say all the PC software now in existence owes its existence to the S-100.... Anyway, there were quite a few 16-bit systems. Many 80286 variants, including a nice one by Macrotech, a dual Z80H/80286 CPU. There were several 68000s, TI 9900, National 32000, Zilog Z8000, and a variant on the Western Digital LSI-11 bit slice chipset called Alpha Micro. The AM ran its own multi-user operating system, very reminicent of RT-11 (there was a strong DEC influence there). Was the S-100 technically superior? Well, if you go by the IEEE-696 specifications then compared to either the XT or AT it was quite a bit better. Maximum memory was 16MB (24 bit address, 8 or 16 bit data path), 8 interrupt levels (open collector! which meant multiple boards could use the same IRQ), 16 DMA levels (still better than the 7 DMA levels on the current PC). Most 286 based systems ran up to 8Mhz reliably, some made it to 10 or 12 Mhz (compared to the original AT at 6Mhz). Even better, it was common practice to use static RAM memory on the better business systems. If that term doesn't sound familiar, cache memory on modern PCs is static RAM. The significance is that there were no wait states or lost cycles to refresh. Think of how fast your Pentium would run today if all 64MB of RAM was cache, not DRAM. S-100s were also very expandable. Motherboards usually had between 18 and 22 slots for full sized machines. You could put a lot of RAM, serial, and disk controllers in that many card slots. I built custom 286 based multi-user systems that supported 10 or more users running production business work. The response time compared quite favorably to contemporary low end DEC PDP-11s, and for a fraction of the cost. S-100s were also early adopters for much of the current crop of PC peripherals. Networking, using ARCnet at 2.5Mbps over coax. Digital Research supported network access to disk drives using CP/NET on top of MP/M II. No, it wasn't TCP/IP, but it still compares quite well to a basic Netware system. Disk drives, both the 5.25" floppy and the 5.25" hard drive showed up on S-100s before PCs. S-100s using MP/M II could support disk drives up to 512MB, long before MS fixed the 32MB barrier in the XT and AT. The S-100 did have some drawbacks, mostly from the weird control signals the CPU had to generate (anyone remember how difficult it was to simulate a PSYNC on a non-8080 processor?). It suffered terribly from early failures to standardize the bus. Many of the 8-bit systems had unsolvable compatibilty problems. (on the other hand, it did make for some extra pocket change for struggling college students who knew how to tune an S-100 to make everything work :) ) Another problem was the unregulated power supply. Unregulated +8 and +/-16VDC was run over the bus itself, right next to signal lines. Every board required it's own regulation, which could take 20% or more of the board space, as well as being a nightmare to keep cool. If you see early pictures of loaded IMSAIs, the cover was always off. This was a necessity, the heat was too much with the cover on. I had to use a 16" fan to keep mine running with 64KB of 2102 based static RAM (not 21L02s BTW, they cost more than the fan did). The single worst problem was the absolute lack of any hardware standardization beyond the 696 specs. There were no I/O addresses for anything. One manufacturer might use a WD 1791 floppy controller at port 7xH, another would use the NEC 765 floppy controller at address 9xH. There were no standardized BIOS ROMs either. Systems came with some basic boot ROM for one particular disk controller/serial interface, and that was it, everything else was supported by drivers in the machine specific version of the OS. A boot disk for an Altos wouldn't run on a North Star, not even close. For those who think it an evil that the world has standardized on the Wintel architecture for PCs, trust me, the other choice is far worse. >Was it just an issue of being used to them? Sure, but then if you wanted a good hardware oriented micro with lots of support from 3rd parties, in the mid 70s the S-100 was the only choice. You could get a board to do just about anything, tho you had to program it yourself. Nearly all boards came with schematics, if you didn't like the design or it wasn't quite compatible, you could cut traces and rewire to your own choosing. My own IMSAI is far from a standard out of the box model. >As for laissez-faire, I never have believed in it. It makes society >too concerned about money. This is proven when complete crap hardware >is released now, and people don't care because it's good _financially_ You don't like the profit motive? *gasp* That's, well, that's just plain un-american (understandable and excusable if you happen to be european tho). Jack "show me the money" Peacock From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 15 07:46:08 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: This is new... Message-ID: <004901bd686c$b35b3e60$396fbcc1@hotze> >It's easy to blame novice users and get rich quick spammers, but I can't >agree with you. I look on the 'Net as evolution in action. Right now >we have the feeding frenzy of spammers drowning us in unwanted email. >The easy, and wrong, solution is to force them to stop. The right way >is to make it uneconomical for them to send spam. How? I don't really >know, I just ignore it, sort of like background static noise on a >shortwave radio. In general, it is ignored. I know someone, who recently got online. They own a small company, and were offered 15,000 eMail addresses at .01 per person. That sounded like such a great deal! So, they sent the e-mail, and got 200 eMails that bounced, then in 3 months, had recieved 6 orderes for $5 and over 500 eMails about the bad business practices of spamming. They knew no better, but still... >But consider, what kind of response rate do spammers get? Now junk >snail mailers have to actually pay per piece, although at a reduced >rate. They have to make the junk mail attractive to readers so they can >get a high enough response rate to justify the mailing. Maybe we need >the same mechanism for mass commercial postings. In other words, the >ISP specifies in the terms of service that mass commercial mailings (aka >spam) are charged at the same mailing rates as the local post office, >something around 20 cents per item. Now you have a legal means to get >back if the ISP catches a spammer, because they are liable for the >contracted costs. Spam should be illegal. The commercialization of the Internet's what we needed for a long time: a worldwide information resource. Allowing people to profit by it (by ads, etc.) gives you more information available, and a wider user base. Even sci-fi writers didn't envision a global information resource like ours for another ten to twenty years. Let's face it: Until we go past the money-stage, for many things to become popular, they seemingly MUST be commercial. From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Wed Apr 15 08:49:24 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: <199804141923.AA18742@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 14, 98 03:23:45 pm Message-ID: <199804151349.JAA16231@shell.monmouth.com> > > > <(and I'm not sure of the details, but 5-6 years ago sounds about right). > > The landmark was right around the time I left DEC (1993). > > I'd been on the 'net via their gateways since before '87. I was greatly > sadend when I the words went out the internet would permit commercial > ops. > > > Allison > Ah yes. Anyone else remeber the Market machine and WSMR-SIMTEL20 as running repositories of great CP/M stuff. Bill ex-DEC 1981-86 +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From dastar at wco.com Wed Apr 15 09:43:45 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: S-100 tech Summary (was Re: This is new...) In-Reply-To: <01bd6840$eea75020$64ac31cf@foggy> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Jack Peacock wrote: > > I am completely unfamiliar with S-100 systems, so could you please > > explain... were S-100 technologically superior to PCs (i.e. IBM PC > > 5150), or just aesthetically? As far as I know, they used an older > > processor... > > S-100s started out with an Intel 8080, then Zilog Z80. That was > pretty much the end of the 8-bit version, although there were Hmmm...this is sort of like the Creationist version of where S-100 came from. Actually, a guy named Ed Roberts at a company called MITS that built a computer called the Altair 8800 invented the S-100 bus. > slots. I built custom 286 based multi-user systems that > supported 10 or more users running production business work. > The response time compared quite favorably to contemporary low > end DEC PDP-11s, and for a fraction of the cost. Cool! > Another problem was the unregulated power supply. Unregulated > +8 and +/-16VDC was run over the bus itself, right next to > signal lines. Every board required it's own regulation, which > could take 20% or more of the board space, as well as being a > nightmare to keep cool. If you see early pictures of loaded > IMSAIs, the cover was always off. This was a necessity, the > heat was too much with the cover on. I had to use a 16" fan to > keep mine running with 64KB of 2102 based static RAM (not 21L02s > BTW, they cost more than the fan did). On one of my IMSAI's the original owner found that covering the vent holes on the right (or was it left?) side of the case on the inside with electrical tape forced the air flow across the boards. > >As for laissez-faire, I never have believed in it. It makes society > >too concerned about money. This is proven when complete crap hardware > >is released now, and people don't care because it's good _financially_ > > You don't like the profit motive? *gasp* That's, well, that's > just plain un-american (understandable and excusable if you > happen to be european tho). Sounds Marxist to me, but then, Max *is* originally from Russia :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Wed Apr 15 11:55:36 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: This is new... In-Reply-To: <004901bd686c$b35b3e60$396fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980415095536.007ef3f0@wingate> At 03:46 PM 4/15/98 +0300, you wrote: [snip] >>The right way >>is to make it uneconomical for them to send spam. How? I don't really >>know, I just ignore it, sort of like background static noise on a >>shortwave radio. [snip] >Spam should be illegal. The commercialization of the Internet's what we >needed for a long time: a worldwide information resource. Allowing people >to profit by it (by ads, etc.) gives you more information available, and a >wider user base. [snip] How difficult would it be to establish a standardized trust model for email transactions? Think about the way AOL Instant Messanger and ICQ work. If you want to talk with someone, you have to contact them first to establish trust, which may be revoked at any time. I suppose it could be done on a limited basis right now with existing tools such as procmail, or even Eudora and other clients that include filtering capability. Require someone who wants to email your account to fill in a form before they get your magic number, etc. Emails without the magic number could be bounced or sent an autoresponse detailing how to establish trust. The object would be to force anyone who wanted to email you to manually provide verifiable contact information before they could get through to you. Most of us have probably done the same thing with answering machines and Caller ID. My wife and I installed two CID boxes and an aswering machine a couple months ago and were shocked when we realized that we were ignoring about 90% of the calls we had previously been answering on any given day, because the caller was "Unknown Name, Unknown Number" (as we like to call them, "U - N - U - N") and these UNUN callers rarely leave a message, I suppose because they know we wouldn't be interested in talking with them anyway. If such a standard were properly designed and integrated into the existing mail protocols it would have the potential of eliminating spam all together. That's all I have to say about that. -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 15 10:07:47 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: S-100 tech Summary (was Re: This is new...) Message-ID: <199804151507.AA29545@world.std.com> <> S-100s started out with an Intel 8080, then Zilog Z80. That was <> pretty much the end of the 8-bit version, although there were < The response time compared quite favorably to contemporary low <> end DEC PDP-11s, and for a fraction of the cost. Actually the Alpha MicroSystems was a s100 box in the 1979-80 time frame that used the WD13 chipset (same as the LSI-11/pdp-11) with slightly different microcode and it did run with the same or slightly better performance than the LSI-11/03 it's contemporary. <> Another problem was the unregulated power supply. Unregulated <> +8 and +/-16VDC was run over the bus itself, right next to <> signal lines. Every board required it's own regulation, which <> could take 20% or more of the board space, as well as being a <> nightmare to keep cool. If you see early pictures of loaded <> IMSAIs, the cover was always off. This was a necessity, the <> heat was too much with the cover on. I had to use a 16" fan to <> keep mine running with 64KB of 2102 based static RAM (not 21L02s <> BTW, they cost more than the fan did). Typical of the earlier boxen. Their cooling path was poorly thought out at best and looking at them it's was obvious. Usually some fish paper in the right places did the trick. <> >As for laissez-faire, I never have believed in it. It makes society <> >too concerned about money. This is proven when complete crap hardware <> >is released now, and people don't care because it's good _financially An aside to this... some of the S100/SS50/trs80/apple... items from the various third parties were quite the garbage. Some fo the suppliers were patently ripoff artists where money was taken and nothing shipped. Reality check. PCs today can be purchased to do real work and expected to perform. Computers of the late '70s and into the early 80s were often useless as shipped if they worked and required a fair amount of acumen to configure, expand and *required* programming skills. The latter due to add hardware and even create applications to make them useful. For example to add a hard disk in 1980 (10mb DISCUS system was $3995.00) and that was the drive and a s100 card. The user would have to set the jumpers on the card for the correct IO ports to not conflict with their system. The system BIOS would have to be rewritten to add the hard disk and the system tracks on the floppies and the hard disks would have to be rewritten onto the media. This assumes you had the BIOS for your system and it was CP/M or similar... all others the bet was off. So to add a hard disk you needed a system that was up and running, sources, could read the sources supplied... I often had the problem of the NS* using hard sectored 5.25 and the supplied media was 8"!!! Also you had an assembler, editor, debugger and knew 8080/z80 assembler. When I went from a teltek controller to a different one... do it all over again as the new one was totally incompatable. Far cry from an IDE disk and setting the CMOS. Allison From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 15 12:14:35 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <001401bd6892$10a7fac0$3b67bcc1@hotze> OK... I was talking to a Ukranian programmer, who told me that in 1968 the PC was invented, not far from where he worked in Ukrane. Now, that's 4 years before the microprocessor, but is it possible? And this guy might be dilusional, he's VERY communist, but then again, at base, so am I, but with a democratic twist. Anyway, what's the story behind this? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 15 12:32:52 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E883@mail.simconv.com> > OK... I was talking to a Ukranian programmer, who told me > that in 1968 the > PC was invented, not far from where he worked in Ukrane. > Now, that's 4 > years before the microprocessor, but is it possible? Yes it is possible, if you play with the meaning of "PC". If you define it to mean a small computer used by a single person, then a low end mini computer becomes a PC. In which case we have to go all the way back to machines like the Bendix G-15 (late 50s ?). The USSR did not have microprocessors before the US. That's easy to prove, because soviet micros all used US designed instruction sets. How could they produce an 8080 compatible IC before it was released by Intel? Jack Peacock From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 15 12:35:06 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <002201bd6894$e91d4520$3b67bcc1@hotze> >Yes it is possible, if you play with the meaning of "PC". If you define >it to mean a small computer used by a single person, then a low end mini >computer becomes a PC. In which case we have to go all the way back to Yes, but it would have to fit in a space that people can have.. say... at home. >machines like the Bendix G-15 (late 50s ?). The USSR did not have >microprocessors before the US. And the US was not developing an atomic bomb during WWII. >That's easy to prove, because soviet >micros all used US designed instruction sets. How could they produce an >8080 compatible IC before it was released by Intel? A better question: How could Intel make a 8080 compatible machine before it was produced by the Soviets? ;-) Honestly, I think that Soviet computers are, on the whole, a sad story. Such innovation, but it ended up in vain efforts just cloning IBM mainframes and the like. Sound like a company you know? (Minus the vain). Tim D. Hotze From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 15 12:48:46 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: 360 clones (was RE: The PC's Soviet?) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E884@mail.simconv.com> > Such innovation, but it ended up in vain efforts just cloning > IBM mainframes > and the like. Sound like a company you know? (Minus the vain). Several companies: RCA Spectra, XDS Sigma, Amdahl, Fujitsu, Hitachi ... Jack "I love MS, MS loves me" Peacock From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 15 13:46:41 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? References: <001401bd6892$10a7fac0$3b67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <35350091.60F4115F@bbtel.com> Hotze wrote: > OK... I was talking to a Ukranian programmer, who told me that in 1968 the > PC was invented, not far from where he worked in Ukrane. Now, that's 4 > years before the microprocessor, but is it possible? Yeah, that's why all the newest Soviet fighters and bombers used vacuum tubes even into the early 1990's. I'm sure they invented this and the people in Silicon Valley were industrial spies...Uh huh. Can you imagine what a vacuum tube PC would look like? As it is the plant that cranked out most of the red army's tubes is still in use as a commercial tube plant, named SovTek. They do make a hell of a tube but I don't think it's of much use for a PC. Basides, why would they have been so hung up to continually import technology from the free world if they were already ahead of everyone. I don't think Boris and Natasha were classic computer collectors for a hobby. > And this guy might be dilusional, he's VERY communist, but then again, > at base, so am I, but with a democratic twist. Anyway, what's the story > behind this? After 20 yrs in the USAF in tactical and nuclear missiles which included a very close insight to the Soviets I'd say to just take it with a grain of salt and let him have his little vision to make himself happy. He may have been hit with this propaganda for so many years that he actually has it as fact in his own mind. The Soviet idea until the fall of the USSR was if it fit into the back of a duece and a half it was microelectronics. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 15 13:06:56 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E886@mail.simconv.com> > Hotze wrote: > Yeah, that's why all the newest Soviet fighters and bombers > used vacuum tubes > even into the early 1990's. I'm sure they invented this and Not so fast, there are very good reasons to use tubes instead of solid state on certain types of military electronics. Look up "EMP" sometime. This was a deliberate design decision on the part of soviet avionics designers. They do have workable solid state devices. In fact, the later Sukhoi and MiG models had very sophisticated interlocking radars at the squadron level, a capability US forces do not have. Yes, overall the US made much better avionics and electronics in general, but when it was important enough the soviets could produce very good military equipment. Off topic, but I much prefer Russian assault rifles to US ones. I keep an AK47 at home, I would not trust an M16. I wouldn't care to run a business with a Russian built computer though... Jack Peacock From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 15 13:02:18 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: 360 clones (was RE: The PC's Soviet?) Message-ID: <003301bd6898$bd7dd520$3b67bcc1@hotze> >> Such innovation, but it ended up in vain efforts just cloning >> IBM mainframes >> and the like. Sound like a company you know? (Minus the vain). > >Several companies: RCA Spectra, XDS Sigma, Amdahl, Fujitsu, Hitachi ... > Jack "I love MS, MS loves me" Peacock You're right. I actually have nothing against MS, just it's current product line and a few of it's business practices. A good company shouldn't need to um... err.... ahh... lobby (that's it!) anyone. Tim "Who Care's About MS, except when you need to" Hotze From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 15 13:58:01 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: S-100 tech Summary (was Re: This is new...) In-Reply-To: <199804151507.AA29545@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Some of the batter boxes had put some thought to air flw and this was not > a problem. The Northstar Horizon was good, VECTOR MZ, COMPUPRO and there > was an oufit that made mostly boxes all well cooled. Integrand? - don > In the mid to late 70s it was either boxed systems like TRS-80, Apple > or designer systems like S100 or SS50. SS50 was 6800 based 50 pin bus > and tended to be a very different thinking. > > Allison > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 15 14:15:06 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: S-100 tech Summary (was Re: This is new...) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E887@mail.simconv.com> > > Some of the better boxes had put some thought to air flow > and this was not > > a problem. The Northstar Horizon was good, VECTOR MZ, > COMPUPRO and there > > was an oufit that made mostly boxes all well cooled. > > Integrand? The Integrand was one of the best. I still have one of their big S-100 boxes, fans everywhere, monster transformer in the power supply, but somewhat dificult to use all the DB cutouts on the back. Jack Peacock From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 15 14:16:50 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: What format is a VAX 8800/8700/8550/8500 bootdisk in? Message-ID: <13348058788.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I just got my hands on a console refrence for the above, and it had a 5.25" disk in the back. It's labeled "WAFI". (APparently the machine name). How can I see what's on it? I did a "MOUNT/FOREIGN DK0: B:" from PUTR, and it doesn't recognise the format... ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 15 13:41:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: neat find In-Reply-To: <19980415001109.AAA24455@1Cust158.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> from "emanuel stiebler" at Apr 14, 98 06:22:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 355 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980415/faf8f950/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 15 13:48:56 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 PSU Question In-Reply-To: <9804150303.ZM9553@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 15, 98 02:03:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980415/dc9797f5/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 15 16:39:57 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: S-100 tech Summary (was Re: This is new...) Message-ID: <199804152139.AA11554@world.std.com> <> a problem. The Northstar Horizon was good, VECTOR MZ, COMPUPRO and the <> was an oufit that made mostly boxes all well cooled. < I seem to recall reading somewhere (BYTE ~1985 ?) that Soviet made CPUs (6502 clones?) were so poorly maid that they individually came with a list of which instuctions worked and which didn't. Also seem to recall an article on the soviet Apple ][ clone of the time (CPU on a large daughterboard, pirated ROM, cost approx US $20,000) -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > -----Original Message----- > From: Hotze [SMTP:photze@batelco.com.bh] > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 12:15 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: The PC's Soviet? > > OK... I was talking to a Ukranian programmer, who told me that in 1968 > the > PC was invented, not far from where he worked in Ukrane. Now, that's > 4 > years before the microprocessor, but is it possible? > And this guy might be dilusional, he's VERY communist, but then > again, > at base, so am I, but with a democratic twist. Anyway, what's the > story > behind this? > Thanks, > > Tim D. Hotze From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 15 17:56:38 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <19980415225638.6563.qmail@hotmail.com> > >I seem to recall reading somewhere (BYTE ~1985 ?) that Soviet made CPUs >(6502 clones?) were so poorly maid that they individually came with a >list of which instuctions worked and which didn't. Also seem to recall >an article on the soviet Apple ][ clone of the time (CPU on a large >daughterboard, pirated ROM, cost approx US $20,000) > >-Matt Pritchard >Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist >MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ All right, I have taken this for a while, but no more. This ignorance about Soviet technology and abilities is ridiculous. I think you people have kept your anti-communist opinions along with you IBM 704s. Although the USSR certainly had ridiculous administration, and its technology was not very modern, there were many advances by the soviet union, and it now has just as much technology as the US. Lastly, the US scored below Russia in third grade math tests. Also, a LOT of modern programmers are Russian. Most Russian immigrants I know deal with computers. When I was in first grade (1990), we were first led into our school's new computer room. It had a classroom of terminals (in plywood cases), and a punched card machine. My young mind could not discern any other details. I don't mean to be ridiculous, but please be a bit more careful, people! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 15 18:27:22 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E88A@mail.simconv.com> > All right, I have taken this for a while, but no more. This ignorance > about Soviet technology and abilities is ridiculous. I think you > people have kept your anti-communist opinions along with you IBM > 704s. > > Although the USSR certainly had ridiculous administration, and its > technology was not very modern, there were many advances by the > soviet union, and it now has just as much technology as the US. > The soviets always had comparable technology, but were limited by inefficient manufacturing and logistics. Those only exposed to western design philosophy tend to belittle soviet engineers because of the seemingly crude appearance of their equipment, but they had to meet vastly different product requirements. Their export market was the underdeveloped third world, no infrastructure at all. When your target market is some place like Mongolia, Eritrea or South Yemen you have an entirely different set of design parameters. There is no Radio Shack down the corner, no parts store in town, no UPS delivery service. Even literacy is at a premium. Yet they were able to deliver relatively sophisticated equipment to places like this, and were able to maintain it locally. I for one have a great respect for soviet engineers like Mikoyan or Antonov, even Mikhail Kalashnikov, the guy who designed so well he worked himself right out of a job. Jack Peacock From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Apr 2 14:10:18 1998 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: Archiving docs In-Reply-To: <352289DD.26A36794@bigfoot.com> References: <3.0.16.19980331100107.29279d9c@ricochet.net> <3.0.3.32.19980401020102.00a7f430@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: At 11:39 AM 4/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >Well grayscale is usually 8-bit, thus what you call "256 color B&W" is really >grayscale. Strictly speaking, B&W means just black and just white, no >in-betweens. Uh, yea. That's what I meant to say. I'm a geek, not an artist. I got thrown into this 'cause it pays the bills. >> Oh, and at least with Photoshop 4.0, it's stock JPEG encoding sux rox. > >Hmmm, 3.51's is decent and offers multiple compression levels. The multiple that PhotoShop 4 had was around 7 or 8 levels, and even in the "high quality" compression levels the pictures looked (comparatively) horrid. Paint Shop Pro offers 99 compression levels, so can be fine tuned for compression & image quality much better than PhotoShop 4. Altho I have nothing against PS4, doing my work in it, then having to export anything in a loseless format, then load it into PSP (3,4,5, take your pick) to save it as JPG was rather a pain. The JPG (lack of) quality from PS4 to me isn't worth the money (or the 50+Meg install.) This is why there are some very good scanned images of Tandy 600's on the web! See ya, "Merch" From kyrrin at jps.net Wed Apr 15 19:16:27 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (kyrrin@jps.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: FW: Anyone want to trade with this fellow? Message-ID: <35354da0.3510942778@smtp.jps.net> Found on Usenet. If you want to do some trading, contact him directly. -=-=- -=-=- From: psthomas@nyx.nyx.net (Patrick Thomas) Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro Subject: Anyone trade sun->vax stuff? Date: 15 Apr 1998 04:03:42 GMT Organization: Nyx Public Access Internet Lines: 17 Message-ID: <892612952.112379@iris.nyx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: iris.nyx.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #5 X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a Free Public Access Internet Service: http://www.nyx.net Our AUP / Free Speech Policy are at http://www.nyx.net/policies/ Direct complaints to abuse@nyx.net X-Post-Path: iris.nyx.net!psthomas@nyx.nyx.net Path: blushng.jps.net!nntp.snfc21.pbi.net!news.pbi.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.124.0.31!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!quasar.dimensional.com!nyx.net!nyx!psthomas Hi again, all... Well, after some four years of absence, my curiousity has again been piqued. After having to divest myself of my collection of VAX hardware in my move to the west coast, I find myself interested to find a microvax or vaxstation again. Even (gasp) a VAXstation 2000, if nothing else. I have a bunch of Sun 3/60s, and even a an IPC, and possibly an HP 9000/400 that I'd be willing to part with, if anyone might be interested. Or I can always go with cash, for those less- enterprising types. :) I live in Portland, now, and will pick up anything in the portland/seattle areas. I also remember how cheap VAXstation 2000s were four years ago, and I would suspect they aren't old enough to be collectible quite yet. :) I'd be more interested in something like a vs3x00 or some such. -- Patrick -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From engine at chac.org Wed Apr 15 14:41:22 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? (off-topic) In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E886@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980415124122.00fb6620@pop.batnet.com> At 11:06 4/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >....They do have workable solid state devices. In fact, the >later Sukhoi and MiG models had very sophisticated interlocking radars >at the squadron level, a capability US forces do not have.... Sukhoi and MiG both kick(ed) butt merrily, at times. This is one reason why, a few years ago, there was a serious proposal for Sukhoi and Kawasaki to collaborate on producing a small (business-class) supersonic transport. OTOH, I'm sure we all remember the stories about Egyptian pilots in the Six Day War, flying full-power low-level dashes in MiG-23s and melting the after turbine in the engines...._truly_ inconvenient.... __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 15 20:27:00 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? References: <19980415225638.6563.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35355E63.9C61AD9B@bbtel.com> Max Eskin wrote: > All right, I have taken this for a while, but no more. This ignorance > about Soviet technology and abilities is ridiculous. I think you > people have kept your anti-communist opinions along with you IBM > 704s. My guess is that Max has a bit of Russian blood lines in him to get so infuriated ;-] > Although the USSR certainly had ridiculous administration, and its > technology was not very modern, there were many advances by the > soviet union, and it now has just as much technology as the US. Becuase since the breakdown of the USSR they've imported shiploads. Prior to this they were banned from technological advances openly available in the free world, same as the restrictions on obtaining nuclear materials and bomb technology. > Lastly, the US scored below Russia in third grade math tests. Also, > a LOT of modern programmers are Russian. Most Russian immigrants > I know deal with computers. If any of us had to consider dealing with jail time for low grades we'd get out act together too. > When I was in first grade (1990), we were first led into our school's > new computer room. It had a classroom of terminals (in plywood cases), > and a punched card machine. My young mind could not discern any other > details. Max, I just can't hold this back....I have socks older than that! I hit first grade the year JFK was shot. (please no offense, I get the same from those that saw the depression - my parents) You can't judge the US's capabilities by a public school inventory either - most have Apple II's in regular use. > I don't mean to be ridiculous, but please be a bit more careful, people! With 20 yrs of military intelligence (those don't fit together!) info passing me daily I'm sure I can vouch for most of what I've seen and heard. I've been to eastern Europe as well in that period and seen much of what went on. I've disarmed and unloaded stranded Soviet aircraft that were forced to land in Iceland for mechanical problems prior to their repairs. The Fixbat, Bear, etc have had panels opened by crews that were doing repairs "for diplomatic reasons" while we unloaded their heavy steel missiles and I've seen planes as late as 1985 with vacuum tubes and "solid state tubes" in their electronics bays. We had a rectifier from a radio in a captured Soviet tank that made our solid state items in 1970 look like microprocessors. The Russian people are very nice people and a very close knit people. I've known Russian born people that immigrated to the US when I was growing up in Chicago, along with those from other Warsaw Pact countries such as Poland (Chicago has a lot of Polish people on the west side). They just didn't have the innovations that they claim they did. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 15 20:46:55 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E886@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <3535630F.4EDD2A00@bbtel.com> Jack Peacock wrote: > > Hotze wrote: > > Yeah, that's why all the newest Soviet fighters and bombers > > used vacuum tubes > > even into the early 1990's. I'm sure they invented this and > > Not so fast, there are very good reasons to use tubes instead of solid > state on certain types of military electronics. Look up "EMP" sometime. EMP - ElectroMagnetic Pulses. This is the electrical wave that is the result of a nuclear detonation. Vacuum tubes aren't the only way to "harden" a curcuit against this. The usual and practical way to protect against this is to armor the electronics and all connecting cables. I worked with the Short range Attack Missile (SRAM), Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM), Sea Launched Cruise Missile (SLCM) and Advanced Cruise Missile (ACM) for many years. I'm all too familiar with using a megohm meter to check resistance between the body and covers of equipment made to protect against EMP. Vacuum tubes are good at a distance. > This was a deliberate design decision on the part of soviet avionics > designers. They do have workable solid state devices. In fact, the > later Sukhoi and MiG models had very sophisticated interlocking radars > at the squadron level, a capability US forces do not have. Yes, overall > the US made much better avionics and electronics in general, but when it > was important enough the soviets could produce very good military > equipment. Stress the word "later", much later. Those planes came about way too late and were still heavy iron rocks. Well made but probably too well made as they stress cracked, broke up, etc in the middle of when it counted. Their irfrared missiles could be fooled into following a flare dropped from a fighter, something the US Sidewinder has fixed since 1977 using upgraded electronics and an argon cooler. > Off topic, but I much prefer Russian assault rifles to US > ones. I keep an AK47 at home, I would not trust an M16. Many vets of Vietnam can tell you what they think of the 16 as well. I had to qualify with them yearly and I'm not sure if I'd trust my life to either one. The 47 is a much better built weapon but it still has it's flaws. The sources for the ammunition, particularly those with corrosive primers, leave a bit to be desired when having to depend on the unit to protect your life. > I wouldn't care to run a business with a Russian built computer though... I'm starting to wonder about Taiwan made as well.... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 15 20:16:35 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <19980416011635.23599.qmail@hotmail.com> > >Max Eskin wrote: > >> All right, I have taken this for a while, but no more. This ignorance >> about Soviet technology and abilities is ridiculous. I think you >> people have kept your anti-communist opinions along with you IBM >> 704s. > >My guess is that Max has a bit of Russian blood lines in him to get so >infuriated ;-] I was born in the USSR an came here 7 years ago >> Although the USSR certainly had ridiculous administration, and its >> technology was not very modern, there were many advances by the >> soviet union, and it now has just as much technology as the US. > >Becuase since the breakdown of the USSR they've imported shiploads. Prior to >this they were banned from technological advances openly available in the >free world, same as the restrictions on obtaining nuclear materials and bomb >technology. Well, nowadays, Windows 95 is almost as easy to get over there as weapons-grade plutonium ;) >> a LOT of modern programmers are Russian. Most Russian immigrants >> I know deal with computers. > >If any of us had to consider dealing with jail time for low grades we'd get >out act together too. Jail time? No. Loss of self-respsect? Yes. Nothing the government can do will get people to learn well. It is a good moral foundation that most schools here don't teach, and parents don't have time to. Sorry for the off-topic and anti-US stuff, folks. > >Max, I just can't hold this back....I have socks older than that! I hit >first grade the year JFK was shot. (please no offense, I get the same from >those that saw the depression - my parents) You can't judge the US's >capabilities by a public school inventory either - most have Apple II's in [ON TOPIC BELOW] I meant simply to share the only computer I ever saw in the USSR. There was a big sign on the wall that said "Turn the computers off before leaving!". That wasn't meant for us, but I didn't know that, and I once turned a terminal off. I came back next time, the terminal didn't. I guess it had volatile ROM or something. In general, I liked those terminals. They looked very, um, handmade. >went on. I've disarmed and unloaded stranded Soviet aircraft that were >forced to land in Iceland for mechanical problems prior to their repairs. >The Fixbat, Bear, etc have had panels opened by crews that were doing >repairs "for diplomatic reasons" while we unloaded their heavy steel >missiles and I've seen planes as late as 1985 with vacuum tubes and "solid >state tubes" in their electronics bays. We had a rectifier from a radio in a >captured Soviet tank that made our solid state items in 1970 look like >microprocessors. What's wrong with vacuum tubes? You're the ones collecting them :0 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 15 20:21:25 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <19980416012125.5729.qmail@hotmail.com> > >> All right, I have taken this for a while, but no more. This ignorance >> about Soviet technology and abilities is ridiculous. I think you >> people have kept your anti-communist opinions along with you IBM >> 704s. >> >> Although the USSR certainly had ridiculous administration, and its >> technology was not very modern, there were many advances by the >> soviet union, and it now has just as much technology as the US. >> > >The soviets always had comparable technology, but were limited by >inefficient manufacturing and logistics. Those only exposed to western >design philosophy tend to belittle soviet engineers because of the >seemingly crude appearance of their equipment, but they had to meet >vastly different product requirements. Their export market was the >underdeveloped third world, no infrastructure at all. When your target >market is some place like Mongolia, Eritrea or South Yemen you have an >entirely different set of design parameters. There is no Radio Shack >down the corner, no parts store in town, no UPS delivery service. Even Why Radio Shack when you have BFI? I can just imagine a fried US made cell phone flying into a third-world bonfire...that sure would stink. Another reason why Russian products were build to last was, very simply, because if you trash your phone, you'd have to get on a two-month waiting list to get another one. > Jack Peacock > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From groberts at mitre.org Wed Apr 15 21:10:51 1998 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info Message-ID: <000201bd68dc$e16f3f20$1bf91d80@groberts.mitre.org> Tony Duell originally asked this but the group may be interested. The MMD1 8080 trainer was based on a design by Jonathan Titus and Company (Tychon Inc.) and was apparently described in a series of articles in the May-July 1976 Radio Electronics, however it is also described in "The 8080a Bugbook", a Howard Sams book (ISBN 0-672-21447-4), 1977. Tony: the two ROM sockets are for 1702 ROMS. The very simple but efficient monitor, called KEX for "Keyboard Executive", easily fits in the 256 byte space of one of these, leaving ROM socket 1 for "expansion". I don't have access to the original articles on this unit but it was easy enough to reverse engineer the assembly listing of KEX, below. I'd give y'all instructions on using the monitor but that would take the fun out of reading the source listing! i've also stuck the HEX file at the end of the listing. have fun! - Glenn * KEX.ASM * * Keypad EXecutive * * This is a reverse engineered assembly listing * of the 8080 trainer ROM. For more information see * Radio Electronics May-July 1976 issues, also Chapter 2 * of "The 8080 Bugbook" * * Glenn Roberts 2/13/97 * RST1 SET 003010A RST2 SET 003020A RST3 SET 003030A RST4 SET 003040A RST5 SET 003050A RST6 SET 003060A STACK SET 004000A USERFWA SET 003000A * * Keypad equates * H.KEY EQU 10Q L.KEY EQU 11Q G.KEY EQU 12Q S.KEY EQU 13Q A.KEY EQU 15Q B.KEY EQU 16Q C.KEY EQU 17Q ORG 0 JMP START DS 5 JMP RST1 DS 5 JMP RST2 DS 5 JMP RST3 DS 5 JMP RST4 DS 5 JMP RST5 DS 5 JMP RST6 DS 5 * * Cold boot entry, load stack and memory pointer * START LXI SP,STACK LXI H,USERFWA MAIN MOV C,M ; C is value to be displayed MOV A,H ; Output High byte OUT 1 ; of memory counter to left LEDs MOV A,L ; and low byte of memory counter OUT 0 ; to center LEDs * * Loop to process keypad input * KPLOOP MOV A,C ; output the value of C to OUT 2 ; the rightmost LEDs L110 CALL RDKEY ; Read key from keypad CPI 8 ; Is it numeric octal? (0-7) JNC L134 ; no, test for others MOV B,A ; Temp save in B MOV A,C ; Get the current working byte RAL ; and move it left 3 bits RAL RAL ANI 11111000B ; then clear low 3 bits ORA B ; and insert temp value (B) there MOV C,A ; then move back to C JMP KPLOOP L134 CPI L.KEY ; Was key "L"? JNZ L345 ; no MOV L,C ; yes, move working byte to L JMP MAIN ; and go to top CPI H.KEY ; Was key "H"? JNZ L156 ; no MOV H,C ; yes, move working byte to H JMP MAIN ; and go to top L156 CPI S.KEY ; Was key "S" (step)? JNZ L170 ; no MOV M,C ; yes, move working byte to memory INX H ; increment memory pointer JMP MAIN ; and go to top L170 CPI G.KEY ; Was key "G" (go)? JNZ L110 ; no PCHL ; yes - load Program Counter from HL DS 65 ; filler * * Delay (debounce) * * This routine delays for a bit over 10ms. * Note cycle time is 1.5 microseconds * Total delay: 62 + (294 * 24) = 7,118 cycles * 7,118 * 1.5 = 10.677 ms. * DELAY PUSH PSW PUSH D LXI D,294 ; Number of times to loop DLY1 DCX D ; Decrement DE MOV A,D ; and test for DE = 0 ORA E JNZ DLY1 ; if not, keep looping POP D POP PSW RET * * Read a key from the keypad (with debouncing) * RDKEY IN 0 ; Read the keypad port ORA A ; set flags JM RDKEY ; no key depressed - loop CALL DELAY ; have key, debounce RDK1 IN 0 ; Re-read the key ORA A ; set flags JP RDK1 ; key still depressed - loop CALL DELAY ; key released, wait IN 0 ; Read once more ORA A ; set flags JP RDK1 L345 ANI 00001111B ; Only lower nibble of interest PUSH H MVI H,0 ; Set HL to point to table ADI #TABLE MOV L,A MOV A,M POP H RET * * Lookup table for keypad * TABLE DB 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7 DB S.KEY DB 0 DB C.KEY DB G.KEY DB H.KEY DB L.KEY DB A.KEY DB B.KEY END START :10000000C33800BB3A32D63AC30803318022CD5EF2 :10001000C31003210842CD46C3180323CDEC3D1184 :10002000C320030842CD7041C32803AF328C3A325B :10003000C33003153B2108423100042100034E7CEC :10004000D3017DD30079D302CDCD00FE08D25C0070 :100050004779171717E6F8B04FC34500FE09C2E508 :100060000069C33E00FE08C26E0061C33E00FE0B85 :10007000C278007123C33E00FE0AC24800E93B116A :100080000142017B3BFF2B3A7B3BE601C178D1E18A :10009000CA263DFE3DC2103DCD7F3DDAE23B21DF69 :1000A0003ACD8734FE2CCC213E21DF3A11FB4101B1 :1000B0007B3BFF2B3A7B3BE601CAC03C21D53AF59E :1000C000D51126011B7AB3C2C400D1F1C9DB00B738 :1000D000FACD00CDBF00DB00B7F2D600CDBF00DB0C :1000E00000B7F2D600E60FE52600C6F06F7EE1C944 :1000F00000010203040506070B000F0A08090D0E94 :00003801C7 From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Apr 15 21:23:29 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: New Finds Last two days Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980415212329.006cc258@pop3.concentric.net> Starting Tuesday I have come across a few nice finds at very low prices, here is a small sample: Televideo model 910 terminal; NCR workstation C-256/89 no kb came with it; MicroNet ext HD; Apple tape Backup unit 40sc; Apple modem power supply M0174; LN03R Scriptprinter Operator guide; HP85; digital RX02 drive unit model RX02M-EA; Sun tape unit model 511; HP 9121 FD drive unit model D; HP 82901M; HP 1615A Logic Analyzer; HP 9920A unit; Fluke 2240B Datalogger; HP 9826; HP 86B;several old Mac KB's for model 128 and Plus; and several other items and manuals. The entire load set me back $26. Will get around to testing these items someday. Keep Computing John From engine at chac.org Wed Apr 15 21:32:39 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E88A@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980415193239.00f576c0@pop.batnet.com> At 16:27 4/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >> All right, I have taken this for a while, but no more. This ignorance >> about Soviet technology and abilities is ridiculous. I think you >> people have kept your anti-communist opinions along with your IBM >> 704s. WANTED: IBM 704 with full docs, spare tubes, all cables. Will trade proof-quality set of anti-Communist opinions, family heirloom since 1920's and extensively refurbished in 1950's. (rotflmao) To those who would badmouth Soviet engineering I say one word: ENERGIYA!! __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 15 21:43:27 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <005401bd68e1$85d98f80$3b67bcc1@hotze> >EMP - ElectroMagnetic Pulses. This is the electrical wave that is the result >of a nuclear detonation. Vacuum tubes aren't the only way to "harden" a >curcuit against this. The usual and practical way to protect against this is >to armor the electronics and all connecting cables. I worked with the Short >range Attack Missile (SRAM), Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM), Sea >Launched Cruise Missile (SLCM) and Advanced Cruise Missile (ACM) for many >years. I'm all too familiar with using a megohm meter to check resistance >between the body and covers of equipment made to protect against EMP. Vacuum >tubes are good at a distance. Anyone seen Goldeneye? ;-) So that part about the MiG's crashing and that helicopter not... fake? >> I wouldn't care to run a business with a Russian built computer though... > >I'm starting to wonder about Taiwan made as well.... Just as Max can vouch for the USSR, I can/cannot for Taiwan. They've got good heads on their shoulders, but they think that it's American not to use them. That will be their downfall. Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 15 21:44:10 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <005501bd68e1$8ac2e280$3b67bcc1@hotze> >>The soviets always had comparable technology, but were limited by >>inefficient manufacturing and logistics. Those only exposed to western >>design philosophy tend to belittle soviet engineers because of the >>seemingly crude appearance of their equipment, but they had to meet >>vastly different product requirements. Their export market was the >>underdeveloped third world, no infrastructure at all. When your target >>market is some place like Mongolia, Eritrea or South Yemen you have an >>entirely different set of design parameters. There is no Radio Shack >>down the corner, no parts store in town, no UPS delivery service. Even > >Why Radio Shack when you have BFI? I can just imagine a fried US >made cell phone flying into a third-world bonfire...that sure would >stink. Another reason why Russian products were build to last was, >very simply, because if you trash your phone, you'd have to get on >a two-month waiting list to get another one. See? That's my biggest complaint about the Soviets. They gave communism a bad name. The USSR, in my opinion, wasn't a true communism any more than Rome was a democracy after they had "dictators for life." Nice try, but a true communism would be the opposite. Everyone would have everything, if humans worked on an equal basis. That's why communisms don't work with people: They'res a few rotten apples in every barrell. Also, look at Soviet technology and people as a whole. Even though MiG's did use vaccum tubes, they were still considered a threat, when equipped with Soviet pilots. As for the technology, I'll say that it wasn't behind the US, but rather on a path that we didn't follow, and so it looked like they were behind us. BTW, I'm guessing that with a $20,000 A2 clone, the avreage Dmitri didn't get one in the USSR. Tim D. Hotze From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 15 21:50:46 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: off topic: Soviet "Quality"? RE: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E886@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980415215046.4bd7a6fe@intellistar.net> At 11:06 AM 4/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >> Hotze wrote: >> Yeah, that's why all the newest Soviet fighters and bombers >> used vacuum tubes >> even into the early 1990's. I'm sure they invented this and > >Not so fast, there are very good reasons to use tubes instead of solid >state on certain types of military electronics. Look up "EMP" sometime. >This was a deliberate design decision on the part of soviet avionics >designers. They do have workable solid state devices. In fact, the >later Sukhoi and MiG models had very sophisticated interlocking radars >at the squadron level, a capability US forces do not have. Whoa!!! Where have you been for the last 15 years? I worked as a RADAR tech in the USAF as well as working on various guidance systems for a *MAJOR* US defense contractor and the US DOES HAVE linking RADAR systems and has had for a looonnnggg time. We have in in ALL aircraft, also in tanks and other armored vehicles and even in some man portable units. Frankly, we could have had RADAR linking much sooner but we didn't need it since we had AWACS and it's predessor the EC-121. Yes, overall >the US made much better avionics and electronics in general, but when it >was important enough the soviets could produce very good military >equipment. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! When was the last time you looked at a piece of Russian military hardware????????? It's very crude!!! Try interchanging a few parts in ANY of the AK-47s. Nothing is standard, it was all hand fitted to get it to even work! Even their best produced guns have rough machining marks and flashing all over them. Their best military equipment is poor even when compared to our so called "Saturday Night Specials". Stalin used to say that "Quantity had it's own Quality". He was specificly referring to their poorly built weapons. Off topic, but I much prefer Russian assault rifles to US >ones. I keep an AK47 at home, I would not trust an M16. I have several of both, along with H&K, Daewoo, FAL and others. Yeah, the AK is reliable but it's accuracy is pathetic! The H&K is the most reliable IMHO, but overall I'd pick any of them over an AK! My $.02 worth. Joe I wouldn't >care to run a business with a Russian built computer though... > Jack Peacock > From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 15 22:59:32 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? References: <19980416011635.23599.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35358223.43ADE776@bbtel.com> Max Eskin wrote: > Jail time? No. Loss of self-respsect? Yes. Nothing the government > can do will get people to learn well. It is a good moral foundation > that most schools here don't teach, and parents don't have time to. Not since the early '70's when the "hippie" (no offense long hairs) crowd decided to change the world to a "feels good" world and we started the whole "time out" concept of discipline. I had no problem with a good whack on the ass when I was daydreaming - it woke me up. Now it's the concept of "neither pass or fail as it's bad for the child's self image" crap. Anyone want to wonder why 14 yr olds are shooting up the schools? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 15 22:00:22 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <199804160300.AA12075@world.std.com> Message-ID: <35358510.A16BB4BB@bbtel.com> Hotze wrote: > Anyone seen Goldeneye? ;-) So that part about the MiG's crashing and that > helicopter not... fake? One of the Bond/Bond type movies showed a group jamming an air lauched cruise and running them into the water where they retreived them. While they had the "W80" marking on the warhead correct, the idea of causing a missile that's preprogrammed and using radar as a backup or enhancement to navigation is BS too. Not on topic some of you say? How do you think these missiles get around? Computers! Not classic? The SRAM was built in the era of 1972-74 and developed in the late 60's. I think this qualifies, although not a computer many of us want to collect. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 15 23:22:30 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: off topic: Soviet "Quality"? RE: The PC's Soviet? References: <3.0.1.16.19980415215046.4bd7a6fe@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <35358786.94E24649@bbtel.com> Joe wrote: > Whoa!!! Where have you been for the last 15 years? I worked as a RADAR > tech in the USAF as well as working on various guidance systems for a > *MAJOR* US defense contractor and the US DOES HAVE linking RADAR systems > and has had for a looonnnggg time. We have in in ALL aircraft, also in > tanks and other armored vehicles and even in some man portable units. > Frankly, we could have had RADAR linking much sooner but we didn't need it > since we had AWACS and it's predessor the EC-121. Yup.m I thought that maybe I was the only one here that saw it that way. > Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! When was the last > time you looked at a piece of Russian military hardware????????? It's very > crude!!! Try interchanging a few parts in ANY of the AK-47s. Nothing is > standard, it was all hand fitted to get it to even work! Even their best > produced guns have rough machining marks and flashing all over them. > Their best military equipment is poor even when compared to our so called > "Saturday Night Specials". Stalin used to say that "Quantity had it's own > Quality". He was specificly referring to their poorly built weapons. I second the motion. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 15 22:26:19 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980415222619.7a1755b0@intellistar.net> At 05:12 PM 4/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >I seem to recall reading somewhere (BYTE ~1985 ?) that Soviet made CPUs >(6502 clones?) were so poorly maid that they individually came with a >list of which instuctions worked and which didn't. Also seem to recall >an article on the soviet Apple ][ clone of the time (CPU on a large >daughterboard, pirated ROM, cost approx US $20,000) I remember that article. The entire motherboard was pirated! Not just the ROM. The tops of the ICs had been ground off to hide the fact that they were US made parts. Joe > >-Matt Pritchard >Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist >MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hotze [SMTP:photze@batelco.com.bh] >> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 12:15 PM >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> Subject: The PC's Soviet? >> >> OK... I was talking to a Ukranian programmer, who told me that in 1968 >> the >> PC was invented, not far from where he worked in Ukrane. Now, that's >> 4 >> years before the microprocessor, but is it possible? >> And this guy might be dilusional, he's VERY communist, but then >> again, >> at base, so am I, but with a democratic twist. Anyway, what's the >> story >> behind this? >> Thanks, >> >> Tim D. Hotze > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Apr 15 18:50:52 1998 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <35358510.A16BB4BB@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <199804160347.XAA22500@mail.cgocable.net> For nearly a week, have anyone seen James Willings's postings or in private emails between anyone? Thanks, I'm bit worried. His website is down also, checked today. Jason D. email: jpero@cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D. From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 15 23:30:56 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <35358223.43ADE776@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Not since the early '70's when the "hippie" (no offense long hairs) crowd > decided to change the world to a "feels good" world and we started the whole > "time out" concept of discipline. I had no problem with a good whack on the > ass when I was daydreaming - it woke me up. Now it's the concept of "neither > pass or fail as it's bad for the child's self image" crap. Anyone want to > wonder why 14 yr olds are shooting up the schools? You can go back rather further than that to the permissive teachings of the late Dr. Spock. At the least, he planted the seeds for a lot of that latter day psychobabble that precludes reasonable attempts at discipline. - don From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Apr 12 14:18:58 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: OT: Star Trek - Isolinear Storage References: <199804110702.AAA03132@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <353113A3.377EB16C@goldrush.com> > From: "Hotze" > Subject: Is this possible? (Storage) (Off-topic?) > > Sorry, but this has been bugging me for quite some time. In Star Trek, they > use "Isolinear" based memory circuts to store information in both the short > and long term. So, from the looks of it, it's some kind of crystal, and can > transmit it's data very quickly, and with no moving parts, so I'm guessing > that it's similiar to today's RAM. Now, for the hard part: It can hold > entire encyclopedia's in tiny amounts. In one episiode, they had nanites, > little robot-bugs that could hold "gigabytes of information," and were > microscopic. Furthermore, in some episodes, they find Chodak and T'Kon > ruins, between 900,000 to 700,000 years old, with half or more of the data > intact. > Was crystaline storage ever attempted like this? Is it possible? > Feasable? A few years back I read a facinating article on holographic storage systems. Where the medium was a 'slide sized' wafer and was recorded and read holographically using a laser beam. Being holographic in nature the denisty was way more then magnetic disc or CD. That was the closest that I've read to Star Trek like storage. -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From afritz at iname.com Thu Apr 16 00:31:51 1998 From: afritz at iname.com (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: OT: Star Trek - Isolinear Storage Message-ID: <199804160528.BAA23499@pop02.globecomm.net> At 12:18 PM 4/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >A few years back I read a facinating article on holographic storage systems. >Where the medium was a 'slide sized' wafer and was recorded and read >holographically using a laser beam. Being holographic in nature the denisty >was way more then magnetic disc or CD. That was the closest that I've read to >Star Trek like storage. There was a nice feature in Scientific American a few years back about holographic storage. Early 1995 i believe, possible 96. Adam ( Adam Fritzler afritz@iname.com ) http://afritz.base.org/ From mor at crl.com Thu Apr 16 00:19:16 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? References: <005501bd68e1$8ac2e280$3b67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <353594D4.653E94C@crl.com> Hotze wrote: > See? That's my biggest complaint about the Soviets. They gave communism a > bad name. The USSR, in my opinion, wasn't a true communism any more than > Rome was a democracy after they had "dictators for life." Very astute observation. Marx's theories apply exclusively to workers and employers in CAPITALIST systems, not revolution and the establishment of collectivism from monarchistic or feudal lands. ObClassicCmp: there's a guy in Switzerland with a web page offering a lot of surplus Soviet electronic components and systems. Has anyone had any dealings with this person? -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Apr 16 03:36:11 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: OT: Star Trek - Isolinear Storage Message-ID: <002401bd6912$d644c1c0$bd67bcc1@hotze> >At 12:18 PM 4/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >>A few years back I read a facinating article on holographic storage systems. >>Where the medium was a 'slide sized' wafer and was recorded and read >>holographically using a laser beam. Being holographic in nature the denisty >>was way more then magnetic disc or CD. That was the closest that I've read to >>Star Trek like storage. > >There was a nice feature in Scientific American a few years back about >holographic storage. Early 1995 i believe, possible 96. I remember last summer, there was something in CNN about Berkley (or one of those California universities that you'd associate with computers/technology) Developing a blue laser. This could radically change everything, including DVD. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Apr 16 07:22:55 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info Message-ID: <000a01bd6932$756b75e0$f4010bce@fauradon> This Trainer was called the Dyna-Micro Here is the Memory allocation: Hi Lo 000 000 \ > Key Prom 000 377 / 001 000 \ > Optional ROM 002 377 / 002 000 \ > Optional R/W Memory 003 377 / 003 000 \ > R/W Memory 003 377 / 004 000 \ > Available for user expansion 377 377 / Will post more later Does anyone knows where I can find a 1702 programmed with KEX? Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Glenn Roberts To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 9:12 PM Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info >Tony Duell originally asked this but the group may be interested. The MMD1 >8080 trainer was based on a design by Jonathan Titus and Company (Tychon >Inc.) and was apparently described in a series of articles in the May-July >1976 Radio Electronics, however it is also described in "The 8080a Bugbook", >a Howard Sams book (ISBN 0-672-21447-4), 1977. > >Tony: the two ROM sockets are for 1702 ROMS. The very simple but efficient >monitor, called KEX for "Keyboard Executive", easily fits in the 256 byte >space of one of these, leaving ROM socket 1 for "expansion". > >I don't have access to the original articles on this unit but it was easy >enough to reverse engineer the assembly listing of KEX, below. I'd give >y'all instructions on using the monitor but that would take the fun out of >reading the source listing! i've also stuck the HEX file at the end of the >listing. have fun! > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Apr 16 10:20:04 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: OT: Star Trek - Isolinear Storage In-Reply-To: <353113A3.377EB16C@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson" at Apr 12, 98 12:18:58 pm Message-ID: <199804161520.IAA27374@fraser.sfu.ca> > A few years back I read a facinating article on holographic storage systems. > Where the medium was a 'slide sized' wafer and was recorded and read > holographically using a laser beam. Being holographic in nature the denisty > was way more then magnetic disc or CD. That was the closest that I've read to > Star Trek like storage. This article was in a special topic issue of Scientific American, on the future of information technology. About 3 yrs ago I think. All the articles were good. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 16 10:19:23 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980416101923.00bd2df0@pc> From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Thu Apr 16 12:41:23 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:23 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980416101923.00bd2df0@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980416104123.007ca9e0@wingate> At 10:19 AM 4/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >>From : > > "Evil empires: one down, one to go". > >What, the list has degraded to US vs USSR, spank no-spank, going >from "I have more S-100s than you" to "I have more AK-47s than you"? >"Help me, Mr. Wizard! Take me back to classic computers!" > >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum Ok, does my IBM-built M1 Carbine count as a Classic Computer? (No, I don't really have one, but IBM did build them during the war.) I've replied to a couple of these posts, but privately, we should probably keep it that way--we don't want Sam to have a stroke. :) -- David Wollmann dwollmann@ibmhelp.com From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 16 11:16:13 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980416104123.007ca9e0@wingate> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, David Wollmann wrote: > > "Evil empires: one down, one to go". > > > >What, the list has degraded to US vs USSR, spank no-spank, going > >from "I have more S-100s than you" to "I have more AK-47s than you"? > >"Help me, Mr. Wizard! Take me back to classic computers!" > > > >- John > >Jefferson Computer Museum > > Ok, does my IBM-built M1 Carbine count as a Classic Computer? (No, I don't > really have one, but IBM did build them during the war.) > > I've replied to a couple of these posts, but privately, we should probably > keep it that way--we don't want Sam to have a stroke. :) No, I've just given up. It's either me flooding the list with messages complaining about the off-topic noise or the regular bunch flooding the list with off-topic noise. I've decided its not worth pissing everyone off all the time anymore. Oh well, I hope people will realize that what I've been saying is not just so much fuss over nothing. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens to this list over time. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Apr 16 11:19:42 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13348288686.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [I give up...] Don't take it as a loss. Eventually you just have to let things go their way. I'm sure everything will adjust to some happy medium acceptable by all. ------- From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 16 11:36:10 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Epson HX40 (fwd) Message-ID: Can anybody help this guy out? -- Doug ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:06:52 -0400 From: Mark Frey To: Doug Yowza Subject: Re: Epson HX40 I need it to control a traffic sign board like you see on highway construction projects. Lets just say that these things are hard to find. The manufacturer has a EPROM they plug into the HX40 with the program. At 12:42 AM 4/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >I just got an HX-20, and I've got some other machines that have a similar >form factor (like the TRS-80 Model 100), but no HX-40. Why are you >looking for that model specifically? > >-- Doug > >On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Mark wrote: > >> I need an Epson HX-40 to actually use. Might you have one???? >> >> thanks >> >> markfrey@bright.net >> > > > Mark Frey From mor at crl.com Thu Apr 16 10:59:54 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: 1702 EPROM Source? Message-ID: <35362AF9.5693D8B1@crl.com> Jameco no longer carries these. Does anyone know of another source? -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From aaron at wfi-inc.com Thu Apr 16 14:10:54 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E88A@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: My step-father is a Hungarian who left in 1956 to get away from the Russians. Before that, though, he attended a Russian technical school for engineering and has some amazing stories about it. They were sent to the school because of high scores in math and science. When told they were being sent to the "special" school, they were lined up and were picked randomly for occupations like "duck-duck-goose" for engineering fields. My step father was chosen for mechanical engineering. The first day of school, everyone was issued one pencil and told that they were going to have to accomplish with that one pencil what their contemporaries in the west were accomplishing with sophisticated, modern engineering equipment. The funny thing is that we would probably tend to think of them as being inferior for that, and way behind. However, when he came here in 1956 and learned some English, he was able to write his own ticket as an engineer because he knew so much about mechanics at the most basic levels. Learning how to use the modern tools was a snap. I think as computer collectors, we have a little better understanding of how much money was pumped into computer technology in the west, at a time when people in the east were waiting in line for bread. The techno-history of the Soviets isn't just interesting, it's astounding. Does anyone on the list have any Soviet-manufactured systems? This might be a good thing to look for when (whoever it was that wrote the list that he was going to Hungary soon) goes over there. Aaron > All right, I have taken this for a while, but no more. This ignorance > about Soviet technology and abilities is ridiculous. I think you > people have kept your anti-communist opinions along with you IBM > 704s. > > Although the USSR certainly had ridiculous administration, and its > technology was not very modern, there were many advances by the > soviet union, and it now has just as much technology as the US. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Apr 16 13:15:43 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Altair scans update? Message-ID: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5402E0F5FB@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> I check on this subject every 6 months whether I need to or not. What happened to this invaluable resource? Has it ever been posted anywhere? thanks Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: Kai Kaltenbach > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 10:56 AM > To: 'classiccmp@u.washington.edu' > Subject: RE: Altair scans update > > Whatever happened to these? > > thanks > > Kai > > ---------- > From: Richard A. Cini, Jr.[SMTP:rcini@classic.msn.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 5:31 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Altair scans update > > For those who have asked... > > The Altair scans are ready to post, I just have to ZIP them up and > send the > tape to Bill Whitson. Does anyone have his physical address?? > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Rich Cini/WUGNET > > - ClubWin Charter Member (6) > - MCP Windows 95/Netowrking > From engine at chac.org Thu Apr 16 13:53:03 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: References: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E88A@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980416115303.00f90340@pop.batnet.com> At 12:10 4/16/98 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone on the list have any Soviet-manufactured systems? This might >be a good thing to look for when (whoever it was that wrote the list that >he was going to Hungary soon) goes over there. Er.... When we fell heir to the big heap of Apple stuff outside Sacramento, one of the things we found when we dug in a bit was a Soviet Apple ][ clone called an Elektronika. I can't quote chapter and verse because we haven't really unbuttoned it yet, but it would seem that the really astounding part isn't the computer, it's the monitor. We also have schematics and, when I have a bit more (i. e. nonzero) free time, I'm going to ferret out someone who can read them. Max would probably be a good start! Also, for a source on this, remember that in _TCJ_ a guy named Helmut Jungkunz wrote a bunch of columns about both Soviet and East German computers. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Apr 16 13:55:05 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <19980416185506.9764.qmail@hotmail.com> >Does anyone on the list have any Soviet-manufactured systems? This might >be a good thing to look for when (whoever it was that wrote the list that >he was going to Hungary soon) goes over there. > Do Russian slide rules coun ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Apr 16 14:12:33 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <003701bd696c$a330a2e0$7d67bcc1@hotze> I dunno if this guy's going to privately e-mail me or send an e-mail to ClassicCmp, but there's this programmer that I know that seems interested in early Soviet computers. I'll see what I can see... the A2 clone sounds cool, if it had a decent 6502/6502 clone. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 16, 1998 9:57 PM Subject: RE: The PC's Soviet? > >>Does anyone on the list have any Soviet-manufactured systems? This >might >>be a good thing to look for when (whoever it was that wrote the list >that >>he was going to Hungary soon) goes over there. >> >Do Russian slide rules coun > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Marty at itgonline.com Thu Apr 16 15:20:00 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Visual 1083 Commuter portable Message-ID: <1998Apr16.161928.1767.96653@smtp.itgonline.com> Anyone have any information on the Visual 1083 Commuter? It is a MS-DOS based dual half height 360K floppy portable. Thanks- Marty From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 16 13:55:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info In-Reply-To: <000a01bd6932$756b75e0$f4010bce@fauradon> from "Francois" at Apr 16, 98 07:22:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1592 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980416/e1d8f3ab/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 16 19:01:13 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: HP thinkjet printer HP2225P Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 721 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980417/72052f5d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 16 18:53:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Whitechapel Hitech 10 bits? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2760 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980417/b8ac77cb/attachment.ksh From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Apr 16 20:50:17 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info Message-ID: <000e01bd69a3$34302c80$8a010bce@fauradon> Yes it is in octal. If you noticed the keypad has numbers from 0 to 7 so the whole system works in base 8. The R key is a hardwired reset. and the A, B, and C keys are not used by the KEX program. By the way this kit was also called the Mini Micro Designer (MMD-1) and was distributed by Circuit Design, inc. for $125 in kit form. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 16, 1998 6:17 PM Subject: Re: 8080 Trainer - more info >> >> This Trainer was called the Dyna-Micro >> Here is the Memory allocation: > >Thanks for this info (and thanks to Glenn for posting the ROM listing). >It looks like I'll be able to get it working... > >> Hi Lo >> 000 000 \ >> > Key Prom >> 000 377 / >> 001 000 \ >> > Optional ROM >> 002 377 / > >I now have to work out which socket is which. Shouldn't take long - I >recognise all the chips, have data one them, and it's quite simple. Don't >spoil it for me by posting the answer just yet ;-) > >> 002 000 \ >> > Optional R/W Memory >> 003 377 / > >002 377 ? I think. I assume you're using an octal representation of each >byte of the address here - something 8080 people often did. I think I >have the option RAM on my machine. At least, there are no spare sockets >in that area (4 RAM chips fitted). > >> 003 000 \ >> > R/W Memory >> 003 377 / >> 004 000 \ >> > Available for user expansion >> 377 377 / >> >> Will post more later >> Does anyone knows where I can find a 1702 programmed with KEX? > >Well, if I get my machine working, I'll probably have to program a 1702 >on the old Intellec. In which case I'd be able to make a few for other >people if they send me blanks. > >But it might just be easier to put it into a 2716 or 2764 and make up a >kludge board (or if you're building a machine from scratch, just design >the board to take one). > >> Francois > >-tony > From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Apr 16 22:10:45 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info Message-ID: <001801bd69ae$8da26ca0$6b020bce@fauradon> If you are interested I can manage to have the schematics and silkscreen scanned, but I'll wait till you ask ;) >I now have to work out which socket is which. Shouldn't take long - I >recognise all the chips, have data one them, and it's quite simple. Don't >spoil it for me by posting the answer just yet ;-) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Apr 16 22:29:56 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: HP thinkjet printer HP2225P In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I've got an HP thinkjet printer here, model 2225P. It's a >battery-operated unit with a parallel interface. It's not parallel, it's HP-IB(HP's version of GP-IB, identical AFAIK). I never heard of the P model, I though there was just A, B, C and D. No, I don't remember which one is which. It came in HP-IL, HP-IB, parallel and serial interface versions. I have the HP-IL version(and a cute litte HP-IL to HP-IB adaptor), although it is not in use right now(no way to power it and no drivers for my P-IB card). >The battery pack has a 2-pin plug on the back, which looks as though it >connects to the standard HP 8V 3W charger. Is that right? I've got those >by the dozen... Yep, I think so. I'm not sure, since I don't have one of those. A printer with no power supply... I am told that it uses 8V AC. >The parallel interface is a DA15-S connector. Does anyone know the >pinout. I'm pretty sure (from looking inside) that it's TTL level and a >subset of a centronics port. It's an HP-IB connector. Cables can be kinda expensive, but I see them at hamfests sometimes. >And what do the DIP switches above the parallel interface do? Sets the HP-IB address. >I've got the user manual for the GPIB version - are the escape sequences >the same? It IS HP-IB, as mentioned above... So yes. Of course, I COULD be COMPLETELY wrong on everything I just said... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 16 23:20:35 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: HP thinkjet printer HP2225P In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > Another radio rally bargain... > > I'm not sure if this is 10 years old, but anyway... More than that. > I've got an HP thinkjet printer here, model 2225P. It's a > battery-operated unit with a parallel interface. > > The battery pack has a 2-pin plug on the back, which looks as though it > connects to the standard HP 8V 3W charger. Is that right? I've got those > by the dozen... Probably so, as they speak of a normal 7.2-7.6vdc range from the battery pack. > The parallel interface is a DA15-S connector. Does anyone know the > pinout. I'm pretty sure (from looking inside) that it's TTL level and a > subset of a centronics port. I wonder if someone may have converted it to HPIB as the non-portable parallel version uses the normal Centronics connector. > And what do the DIP switches above the parallel interface do? See following for switch information. > I've got the user manual for the GPIB version - are the escape sequences > the same? > > Thanks in advance for any help. > > -tony - don At the site below, Thinkjet docs are listed as "tjxxxxx". from ftp.hp.com/pub/printers/support_docs/tjmode.txt FILENAME: BPD01154 MODE SELECT SWITCH SETTINGS FOR HP THINKJET PRINTERS (C,D,P) ISSUE: What is the purpose of the mode switches on the HP ThinkJet models "C", "D", and "P" ? SOLUTION: Bank A contains eight mode switches which allow you to configure the default conditions for most computer systems and applications. Bank B (HP ThinkJet model "D" only) contains five mode switches that control the RS-232 protocol. These switches determine parity, word length, and baud rate. A detailed explanation for each of the mode select switches are described below: BANK A - FOR HP THINKJET "C", "D", AND "P" # NAME UP DOWN 1 Carriage Return Carriage Return & Carriage (CR) Line Feed Return Only 2 Line Feed Carriage Return & Line Feed Only Line Feed 3 Perforation Skip 1 inch Perforation No Perforation Mode Skip Skip 4 Page Length 12 inches (304.8mm) 11 inches (279.4mm) 5 Control Sequence Alternate Mode (Epson HP Mode Mode MX 80 or MX 100) 6 Character Set See Table Below 7 Character Set See Table Below 8 Character Set See Table Below CHARACTER SET # 6 # 7 # 8 CHARACTER SET Down Down Down Roman 8 Up Down Down United States ASCII Down Up Down Swedish Up Up Down IBM 8 Down Down Up French Up Down Up German Down Up Up United Kingdom Up Up Up Spanish *** Following not applicable to "P" *** BANK B - FOR THINKJET "D" ONLY # NAME UP DOWN 1 Handshake Mode Data Terminal Ready XON/XOFF (DTR) (DC1/DC3) handshaking with PC 2 Parity & Data See Table B1 Bits 3 Parity & Data See Table B1 Bits 4 Baud Rate See Table B2 5 Baud Rate See Table B2 TABLE B1 (PARITY & DATA BITS) SWITCH SETTINGS PARITY WORD LENGTH 2 3 Down Down None 8 [or Zero & 7] Down Up Odd 7 Up Down Even 7 Up Up ONEs 7 TABLE B2 (BAUD RATE) SWITCH SETTINGS BAUD RATE 4 5 Down Down 9600 Down Up 19200 Up Down 2400 Up Up 1200 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 16 23:01:31 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <199804160347.XAA22500@mail.cgocable.net> References: <35358510.A16BB4BB@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980416210131.009be100@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:50 PM 4/15/98 +0000, you wrote: >For nearly a week, have anyone seen James Willings's postings or in >private emails between anyone? No, contrary to popular belief (and random hopes) I have not fallen off the edge of the world... My local ISP got hit with a large scale 'warez' attack a couple of days ago and is still recovering... And of course that puts me just that much further behind in my mail... (and other things...) I'm still here, just trying to catch up! -jim (no "S" on the end of the name BTW) B^} --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mor at crl.com Thu Apr 16 23:00:18 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Must be a typo! Message-ID: <3536D3D1.6EF8FDF3@crl.com> Check out this entry I found on the web for a PAPERBACK book: ----------- Programming the 6502 Computer by Zaks, Rodney Sybex, Berkely, CA 1978 pbk near fine/ 305 p.8.5x5.3x.8 ISBN 0895880091 shelf wear otw clean tight bright no defects (Keywords: rodney zaks programming 6502 micro computer manual) The price of the book is US$ 153.00 The seller is Bennie R Warden - Bookseller 39 S Alhambra , Port St Lucie, FL, U.S.A., 34952-2832. benwarden@earthlink.net. Ph: 561 878-9645. Terms of sale: Ten day Reserve by E-Mail or Telephone. Sorry, No Credit Cards at this ----------- Fortunately, I got my copy for 25 cents at the Bargain Box a few years ago. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Fri Apr 17 00:37:50 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Concurrent Pascal and PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <13348058788.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <199804170537.PAA02816@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Does anyone have any pointers to where I might get a copy of Concurrent Pascal. From rusty memory I believe that Per Brinch Hansen's implementation ran on a PDP-11 of some sort. If I can get a copy of the compiler I might be tempted to get my 11/83 running.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfa keeps me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 17 01:38:26 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Must be a typo! References: <3536D3D1.6EF8FDF3@crl.com> Message-ID: <3536F8E1.CD674991@bbtel.com> Greg Troutman wrote: > Check out this entry I found on the web for a PAPERBACK book: > > ----------- > Programming the 6502 Computer by Zaks, Rodney Sybex, Berkely, CA 1978 > pbk near fine/ 305 p.8.5x5.3x.8 ISBN 0895880091 shelf wear otw clean > tight bright no defects (Keywords: rodney zaks programming 6502 micro > computer manual) The price of the book is US$ 153.00 Typo or heroine addict. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Apr 17 01:07:52 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: How Do You Program Nintendo Games? Message-ID: <000d01bd69c7$4cac2380$1d6fbcc1@hotze> Well? How DO you program Nintendo games. Do you need to compile? Or is it more like BASIC? Is it done in any specific language? Just asking... Tim D. Hotze From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Apr 17 01:59:05 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: MULTICS emulator/simulator project Message-ID: <199804170659.XAA06483@sqcisco.squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 504 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980416/51d161e8/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 17 07:35:04 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: HP thinkjet printer HP2225P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980417073504.2fafaf08@intellistar.net> At 08:29 PM 4/16/98 -0700, John wrote: >>I've got an HP thinkjet printer here, model 2225P. It's a >>battery-operated unit with a parallel interface. >It's not parallel, it's HP-IB(HP's version of GP-IB, identical AFAIK). I >never heard of the P model, I though there was just A, B, C and D. No, I >don't remember which one is which. It came in HP-IL, HP-IB, parallel and >serial interface versions. I have the HP-IL version(and a cute litte HP-IL >to HP-IB adaptor), although it is not in use right now(no way to power it >and no drivers for my P-IB card). John, No, the P model *IS* a parallel version. The pin outs for the connector are in the owner's manual but I don't have a copy of it. Here's the breakdown of the various models: 2225A HP-IB Interface, AC powered 2225B HP-IL Interface, battery powered 2225C Parallel Interface, AC powered 2225C RS-232 Serial Interface, AC powered 2225P Parallel Interface, battery powered Joe From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 17 07:37:12 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Must be a typo! In-Reply-To: <3536F8E1.CD674991@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <13348510324.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Typo or heronine addict.] I guess you could say I was a heroine addict, I'm a Sailor Mercury addict... :-) ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 17 07:38:15 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: How Do You Program Nintendo Games? In-Reply-To: <000d01bd69c7$4cac2380$1d6fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <13348510515.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Hmm... I'd say you find an assembler refrence and start tossing asm at it and see what happens! ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 17 08:31:00 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Must be a typo! Message-ID: <199804171331.AA17647@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > Check out this entry I found on the web for a PAPERBACK book: > > ----------- > Programming the 6502 Computer by Zaks, Rodney Sybex, Berkely, CA 1978 > pbk near fine/ 305 p.8.5x5.3x.8 ISBN 0895880091 shelf wear otw clean > tight bright no defects (Keywords: rodney zaks programming 6502 micro > computer manual) The price of the book is US$ 153.00 > > The seller is Bennie R Warden - Bookseller > 39 S Alhambra , Port St Lucie, FL, U.S.A., 34952-2832. > benwarden@earthlink.net. Ph: 561 878-9645. Terms of sale: Ten day > Reserve by E-Mail or Telephone. Sorry, No Credit Cards at this > ----------- > > Fortunately, I got my copy for 25 cents at the Bargain Box a few years > ago. This is beyond outrageous. I regularly find these sorts of books, and ones even older and more interesting, at used book stores, thrift stores and flea markets. What is this person thinking? This is taking the "computer as antique" thing a bit too far. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 17 09:22:35 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: How Do You Program Nintendo Games? In-Reply-To: <000d01bd69c7$4cac2380$1d6fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: > Well? How DO you program Nintendo games. Do you need to compile? Or is it > more like BASIC? Is it done in any specific language? The Nintendo (I assume the original since its >10yrs and thus topical) had a 6502 at its heart. If you can find some way to poke bytes into it, that's how you'd program it. Normally you'd probably have a developer kit with some interface (probably a carthridge) to download code into it with a cross-assembler for building the actual programs. I'm sure there's also some sort of library for calling graphic and sounds routines. It would be cool if it had a BASIC interpreter but it doesn't, and I doubt if one was ever developed for it, but wouldn't be surprised if one was as side project of some programmer. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From DiesIrrae at aol.com Fri Apr 17 09:27:28 1998 From: DiesIrrae at aol.com (Dies Irrae) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: How Do You Program Nintendo Games? Message-ID: <18dd20c4.353766d1@aol.com> If you are looking into a future of programming video games then check out www.digipen.com (I think that is it). I visited them once and was very impressed. -Enrique! From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 17 10:32:19 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Must be a typo! References: Message-ID: <35377603.11713BC1@bbtel.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > > > Check out this entry I found on the web for a PAPERBACK book: > > > > ----------- > > Programming the 6502 Computer by Zaks, Rodney Sybex, Berkely, CA 1978 > > pbk near fine/ 305 p.8.5x5.3x.8 ISBN 0895880091 shelf wear otw clean > > tight bright no defects (Keywords: rodney zaks programming 6502 micro > > computer manual) The price of the book is US$ 153.00 I have a hardcover book from Tab titled "Learning MS-BASIC on the TI Professional Computer" that I need to get rid of. $5000 er, $7.50 mailed to anyone that can use it. The $7.50 is to cover the postage for the most part. Anyone that wants to send me $5000 is welcome to it as well. ;-)~ -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mor at crl.com Fri Apr 17 08:57:45 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: How Do You Program Nintendo Games? References: <000d01bd69c7$4cac2380$1d6fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <35375FD9.1D746654@crl.com> Hotze wrote: > > Well? How DO you program Nintendo games. Do you need to compile? Or is it > more like BASIC? Is it done in any specific language? You program it in assembly language. It has a 6502 and some specialty video and i/o stuff on board. There are NES programming pages around, with all kinds of specs and sample code and such, if you want to get it into it seriously. Most people today, use an emulator to test out the basic functioning of their code, then, when they're serious about it, build a RAM cartridge that takes a download from a serial port and emulates EPROM, in order to test it on a real system. I'm not sure what the official developer's kit was like, but I'd guess it included similar hardware. Others have already built stuff like this and there is data out there if you go looking for it. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From archive at navix.net Fri Apr 17 11:20:02 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: How Do You Program Nintendo Games? References: Message-ID: <35378132.F7627BCE@navix.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Hotze wrote: > > > Well? How DO you program Nintendo games. Do you need to compile? Or is it > > more like BASIC? Is it done in any specific language? > > The Nintendo (I assume the original since its >10yrs and thus topical) had > a 6502 at its heart. If you can find some way to poke bytes into it, > that's how you'd program it. Normally you'd probably have a developer kit > with some interface (probably a carthridge) to download code into it with > a cross-assembler for building the actual programs. I'm sure there's > also some sort of library for calling graphic and sounds routines. It > would be cool if it had a BASIC interpreter but it doesn't, and I doubt if > one was ever developed for it, but wouldn't be surprised if one was as > side project of some programmer. Acutally, with the popularity in the current emulators and those new projects for the emulators, I wouldn't doubt that BASIC has been ported to the Nintendo. I happen to have BASIC for the Nintendo GameBoy, and would imagine someone has written a BASIC interpreter for the standard Nintendo as well. CORD > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/13/98] -- _____________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |-----------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |-----------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |_____________________________________________________| | \______________________________________________________\| From cfandt at servtech.com Fri Apr 17 11:09:40 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980416210131.009be100@agora.rdrop.com> References: <199804160347.XAA22500@mail.cgocable.net> <35358510.A16BB4BB@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <199804171614.MAA26009@cyber2.servtech.com> At 21:01 16-04-98 -0700, wrote: >At 11:50 PM 4/15/98 +0000, you wrote: >>For nearly a week, have anyone seen James Willings's postings or in >>private emails between anyone? > >No, contrary to popular belief (and random hopes) I have not fallen off the >edge of the world... > >My local ISP got hit with a large scale 'warez' attack a couple of days ago >and is still recovering... And of course that puts me just that much >further behind in my mail... (and other things...) > --snip -- Forgive me for not knowing what _might_ be common knowledge amongst some folks here, but what is this "warez" thing?? I guess I don't hang around in any online areas, etc. which would have clued me in. Just a brief explaination, please, or even a pointer to an info source. No need to take up much bandwidth on this. Judging from Jim's statement, these are possibly individuals who have taken the good old, original 'hacker' expression and turned it into something truely bad? Glad you're still around, Jim. -- -- ======================================================= Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian 31 Houston Avenue Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home Jamestown, New York +716-661-1832 -Office 14701-2627 USA Fax: +716-661-1888 -Office fax email: cfandt@servtech.com Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Apr 17 11:34:49 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? Message-ID: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5402F1AE2A@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Fandt [SMTP:cfandt@servtech.com] > Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 9:10 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? > > Forgive me for not knowing what _might_ be common knowledge amongst some > folks here, but what is this "warez" thing?? > Warez (pronounced "war-ehs" is an infamous village in southern Mexico that was once a training camp for CIA counter-insurgency computer terrorism recruits. Furnished with the highest end computer hacking equipment by the US Government, under the direction of Oliver North, they went rogue when the program was discontinued during the Iran-Contra scandal. After their payroll was cut, the village, ironically, hired itself out to international terrorist concerns to perform paid attacks on US commerce. This situation was exacerbated by an abortive attempt to invade Warez by Puerto Rican commandos under the direction of the US military in 1997. This has since been known as the "Bay of Warez" disaster. Kai From engine at chac.org Fri Apr 17 12:18:52 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? In-Reply-To: <199804171614.MAA26009@cyber2.servtech.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980416210131.009be100@agora.rdrop.com> <199804160347.XAA22500@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980417101852.00fdde70@pop.batnet.com> At 12:09 4/17/98 -0400, Christian wrote: >Forgive me for not knowing what _might_ be common knowledge amongst some >folks here, but what is this "warez" thing?? Well, now that Kai has had his fun -- "Warez attack" or "warezbomb" refers to the charming habit of storing vast amounts of pirated software by uploading it to inconspicuous public ftp directories of ISP's, then tipping off selected people that it's there. Happened to me -- that is, CHAC -- and we just had to amputate the directory. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From rexstout at uswest.net Fri Apr 17 12:28:58 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5402F1AE2A@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: >Warez (pronounced "war-ehs" is an infamous village in southern Mexico that >was once a training camp for CIA counter-insurgency computer terrorism >recruits. Furnished with the highest end computer hacking equipment by the >US Government, under the direction of Oliver North, they went rogue when the >program was discontinued during the Iran-Contra scandal. After their >payroll was cut, the village, ironically, hired itself out to international >terrorist concerns to perform paid attacks on US commerce. This situation >was exacerbated by an abortive attempt to invade Warez by Puerto Rican >commandos under the direction of the US military in 1997. This has since >been known as the "Bay of Warez" disaster. Well, that is VERY interesting! You hear something new every day... Well, my answer is that warez is a stupid name made up by a bunch of 12 year olds that trade software all day long(or whenever else they have a computer and net access in front of them). I'm not going to get started with the rest of the inevitable discussion... But to get back to computers, I'm about to go grab about 10 old Wyse terminals. Whhee!! I'm thinking of using it for packet radio, among other things. I'll keep two of them, one is going to a ham friend, and the rest will probably go to one of the local ham clubs. Amateur radio is NOT dead! Just a little quiet... Another discussion I don't really want to start, since it has been going on ever since ham radio began. See rec.radio.amateur.policy if you want to get into that thread... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 17 12:34:39 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13348564474.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [This is supposed to go to John, but I'm not sure if it will go there. I told MM to send to SENDER. Let's find out!] Amateur radio is't dead. One of my co-workers is a storm chaser, he lent me his 2-meter handheld so I could listen in. (Alinco DJ-S11. Little bitty thing! He says it does 1/2watt TX, it runs from 3 AA batteries, and I can palm it. I can even smuggle it into school with an earpiece and listen during class... :-) Nothing interesting came of it (Where's a tornado when you need one?) but I was listening to the normal traffic, sounds like fun, so I'm gonna go get a no-code Tech license and join in. Always wanted to, but never thought I'd get the time. I think I'll make this a priority... (Set it one notch under the KS-10 thing) ------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 17 13:39:25 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? References: Message-ID: <3537A1DC.F962CC2D@bbtel.com> John Rollins wrote: > >Warez (pronounced "war-ehs" is an infamous village in southern Mexico that > >was once a training camp for CIA counter-insurgency computer terrorism > >recruits. Furnished with the highest end computer hacking equipment by the > >US Government, under the direction of Oliver North, they went rogue when the > >program was discontinued during the Iran-Contra scandal. After their > >payroll was cut, the village, ironically, hired itself out to international > >terrorist concerns to perform paid attacks on US commerce. This situation > >was exacerbated by an abortive attempt to invade Warez by Puerto Rican > >commandos under the direction of the US military in 1997. This has since > >been known as the "Bay of Warez" disaster. > Well, that is VERY interesting! You hear something new every day... Well, > my answer is that warez is a stupid name made up by a bunch of 12 year olds > that trade software all day long(or whenever else they have a computer and > net access in front of them). I'm not going to get started with the rest of > the inevitable discussion... This is exactly right. Anything in the kiddie world of pirated software that's plural is spelled with a z instead of an s. Filez, Warez, Bombz, Serialz, Piratez, etc are all terms that refer to this type of activity. Believe it or not it's actually computer related. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From archive at navix.net Fri Apr 17 13:18:14 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? References: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5402F1AE2A@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <35379CE5.6356C9B4@navix.net> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Christian Fandt [SMTP:cfandt@servtech.com] > > Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 9:10 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? > > > > Forgive me for not knowing what _might_ be common knowledge amongst some > > folks here, but what is this "warez" thing?? > > > Warez (pronounced "war-ehs" is an infamous village in southern Mexico that > was once a training camp for CIA counter-insurgency computer terrorism > recruits. Furnished with the highest end computer hacking equipment by the > US Government, under the direction of Oliver North, they went rogue when the > program was discontinued during the Iran-Contra scandal. After their > payroll was cut, the village, ironically, hired itself out to international > terrorist concerns to perform paid attacks on US commerce. This situation > was exacerbated by an abortive attempt to invade Warez by Puerto Rican > commandos under the direction of the US military in 1997. This has since > been known as the "Bay of Warez" disaster. > > Kai While the above is very true, I have come to know the term Warez as being pirated-commercial software. Today, there is a large group of folks, especially on the internet, that deal in "Warez". You know, short for "softwares." Meaning, they have a web site up, and there you can illegally download all your favorite "Warez". Oh, I am pronouncing it "Where's".... generally, these Warez are modern, commercially marketed software packages, games, etc. Another term that is widely used for those that are pirating this stuff, at least used by those of us not 'into' that 'market', is "Warez-lamers." I guess, that could just be an interpretation. However, I do know someone that is heavily into that type of thing and he also prounces "Warez" as "Where's" -- short for softwares. My $.02 or maybe $.00000000000000002 CORD COSLOR -- _____________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |-----------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |-----------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |_____________________________________________________| | \______________________________________________________\| From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Apr 17 13:07:08 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: How Do You Program Nintendo Games? Message-ID: <19980417110709.3707e7d5.in@mail.pressstart.com> Tim D. Hotze said: >Well? How DO you program Nintendo games. Do you need to compile? >Or is it more like BASIC? Is it done in any specific language? > Just asking... The NES (unless I still half asleep) executes 6502 code. The Super NES is 65816. I think the GameBoy is Z80 (I've never programmed on it). And the N64 uses a 4000 series MIPS processor (4300 or 4400 I'm not sure)(I've never programmed it either). You could write code in 'C' if you have a cross compiler. On the N64, I'll bet that most of the programming is done in 'C' (maybe 99%) because there you are using Libraries that handle all of the low level stuff. ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 17 13:29:49 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Must be a typo! In-Reply-To: <3536F8E1.CD674991@bbtel.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Greg Troutman wrote: > > > Check out this entry I found on the web for a PAPERBACK book: > > > > ----------- > > Programming the 6502 Computer by Zaks, Rodney Sybex, Berkely, CA 1978 > > pbk near fine/ 305 p.8.5x5.3x.8 ISBN 0895880091 shelf wear otw clean > > tight bright no defects (Keywords: rodney zaks programming 6502 micro > > computer manual) The price of the book is US$ 153.00 > > Typo or heroine addict. ^^^^^^^ Heroine as in hero, or heroin as in drugs? - don > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ # 1714857 > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From rexstout at uswest.net Fri Apr 17 13:29:20 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <13348564474.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: Message-ID: >Amateur radio is't dead. One of my co-workers is a storm chaser, he lent >me his >2-meter handheld so I could listen in. >(Alinco DJ-S11. Little bitty thing! He says it does 1/2watt TX, it runs from >3 AA batteries, and I can palm it. I can even smuggle it into school with an >earpiece and listen during class... :-) Alinco makes a few intersting radios. Personally, I like the DJ-C1(and C4), the little credit card radios with an incredibly small antenna and only 300mW output, and to top it off no internal speaker(not enough room!). Kinda expensive at almost $200, though. The S11 is nice, 340mW(about 1/3W) output, small and selling for $88 at HRO right now. I think everyone is closing out on this, they may have stopped production. Or maybe just behind schedule in production, I'm not sure. I heard someone on the air with one, and it has a cute little end of transmission beep like some repeaters do... And storm chasing sounds like fun, too bad(or maybe too lucky) that there aren't many in the northwest... But I get to read the stories posted to the WX-CHASE email list. Lots if interesting stuff. I actually had an interesting idea, putting an ATV, packet and voice radio into a truck and chasing tornadoes. See what it looks like from a chasers point of view with 70cm ATV! :-) Kinda expensive to setup(commercial video and packet equipment can be expensive), but it would be a lot of fun... >Nothing interesting came of it (Where's a tornado when you need one?) but >I was listening to the normal traffic, sounds like fun, so I'm gonna go get >a no-code Tech license and join in. Always wanted to, but never thought >I'd get >the time. I think I'll make this a priority... I'm a no-code Tech right now, working on upgrading to General. Lots of fun. I want to get started with packet and maybe some ATV/SSTV if I can get some video equipment. A very fun hobby(some debates over that occasionally), and not too expensive depending on how you go about it. Right now I have maybe $80 worth of equipment, being a Kenwood TH-205 handheld 2m radio I got for $35(and a new battery that cost $38), an antenna I built for about $5, and a Radio Shack antenna that my uncle gave me... Morse code is most of what I'm stuck on right now, but I'm slowly getting better. --... ...-- -.. . -.- -.. --... -... -.-. -.-- -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From rexstout at uswest.net Fri Apr 17 13:30:25 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <3537A1DC.F962CC2D@bbtel.com> References: Message-ID: >This is exactly right. Anything in the kiddie world of pirated software that's >plural is spelled with a z instead of an s. Filez, Warez, Bombz, Serialz, >Piratez, etc are all terms that refer to this type of activity. Believe it >or not >it's actually computer related. \/\/@y c001 d00dz! There are actually programs that will convert a text file into "warez" format... Scary, isn't it? -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 17 13:37:54 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13348575986.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [There are programs that convert a text file...] Do they do ElITe CaPiTAlS too? :) I think it's fun to tease the warez-lusers. What's even more fun is to give one of them a shadowed password file, and watch them try to run crack on it.. Or give them my VAX's IP and watch them beat their brains out trying to break in. Security through obscurity! I was told one of them tried winnuke... "What the hell kind of unix is that?" -ZeROKewl, in the #warez channel on dalnet, upon seeing Minako's login prompt (VAX/VMS) ------- From van at wired.com Fri Apr 17 14:12:03 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <199804171614.MAA26009@cyber2.servtech.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980416210131.009be100@agora.rdrop.com> <199804160347.XAA22500@mail.cgocable.net> <35358510.A16BB4BB@bbtel.com> Message-ID: Check out Wired 5.04...there's a fantastic story entitled "Warez Wars" on the Mad Hatter and the Inner Circle... Pretty cool. xoxo van >Forgive me for not knowing what _might_ be common knowledge amongst some >folks here, but what is this "warez" thing?? I guess I don't hang around in >any online areas, etc. which would have clued me in. Just a brief >explaination, please, or even a pointer to an info source. No need to take >up much bandwidth on this. > >Judging from Jim's statement, these are possibly individuals who have taken >the good old, original 'hacker' expression and turned it into something >truely bad? Glad you're still around, Jim. >-- -- > >======================================================= >Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >31 Houston Avenue Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home >Jamestown, New York +716-661-1832 -Office >14701-2627 USA Fax: +716-661-1888 -Office fax > email: cfandt@servtech.com >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From rexstout at uswest.net Fri Apr 17 14:01:21 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <13348575986.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: Message-ID: >[There are programs that convert a text file...] > >Do they do ElITe CaPiTAlS too? :) Probably. It gets very stupid very quick... 5 seconds after you download it, it gets trashed because it's so useless... Now, if it could HTMLize it at the same time... ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Fri Apr 17 14:13:48 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <13348575986.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 17, 98 11:37:54 am Message-ID: <199804171913.PAA01319@shell.monmouth.com> > > [There are programs that convert a text file...] > > Do they do ElITe CaPiTAlS too? :) > > I think it's fun to tease the warez-lusers. What's even more fun is to give > one of them a shadowed password file, and watch them try to run crack on it.. > Or give them my VAX's IP and watch them beat their brains out trying to break > in. Security through obscurity! I was told one of them tried winnuke... > > "What the hell kind of unix is that?" -ZeROKewl, in the #warez channel on > dalnet, upon seeing Minako's login prompt (VAX/VMS) > ------- > +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From van at wired.com Fri Apr 17 14:26:22 1998 From: van at wired.com (Van Burnham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5402F1AE2A@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: AAAAAAAAH. Wrongo. Try again. Or was that a little joke?? van >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Christian Fandt [SMTP:cfandt@servtech.com] >> Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 9:10 AM >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? >> >> Forgive me for not knowing what _might_ be common knowledge amongst some >> folks here, but what is this "warez" thing?? >> >Warez (pronounced "war-ehs" is an infamous village in southern Mexico that >was once a training camp for CIA counter-insurgency computer terrorism >recruits. Furnished with the highest end computer hacking equipment by the >US Government, under the direction of Oliver North, they went rogue when the >program was discontinued during the Iran-Contra scandal. After their >payroll was cut, the village, ironically, hired itself out to international >terrorist concerns to perform paid attacks on US commerce. This situation >was exacerbated by an abortive attempt to invade Warez by Puerto Rican >commandos under the direction of the US military in 1997. This has since >been known as the "Bay of Warez" disaster. > >Kai ........................................................................ @ / / Shift Lever (D)/ \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ] ]] 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com production manager wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states ........................................................................ for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Apr 17 14:44:10 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:24 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? Message-ID: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5402F1B227@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Geez, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you guys... > -----Original Message----- > From: Van Burnham [SMTP:van@wired.com] > Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 12:26 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? > > AAAAAAAAH. Wrongo. Try again. > > > Or was that a little joke?? > > van > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Christian Fandt [SMTP:cfandt@servtech.com] > >> Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 9:10 AM > >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >> Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? > >> > >> Forgive me for not knowing what _might_ be common knowledge amongst > some > >> folks here, but what is this "warez" thing?? > >> > >Warez (pronounced "war-ehs" is an infamous village in southern Mexico > that > >was once a training camp for CIA counter-insurgency computer terrorism > >recruits. Furnished with the highest end computer hacking equipment by > the > >US Government, under the direction of Oliver North, they went rogue when > the > >program was discontinued during the Iran-Contra scandal. After their > >payroll was cut, the village, ironically, hired itself out to > international > >terrorist concerns to perform paid attacks on US commerce. This > situation > >was exacerbated by an abortive attempt to invade Warez by Puerto Rican > >commandos under the direction of the US military in 1997. This has since > >been known as the "Bay of Warez" disaster. > > > >Kai > > > ........................................................................ > > @ > / > / Shift Lever > (D)/ > \===================================== @ ================ Floor Plan === > BNL |- - -Phase Shifter- - - -|--/ Get Wired! > - ------------]=[]@----------------------@ 415.276.4979 > Trans- ] ]](A) Toll Free 1.888.208.6655 (B) ? (C) Rear Connection > mission ]]]]]]]]]]]]Driveshaft]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] > ] ]] > 71 ------------] web superstation of the stars... > van burnham http://www.futuraworld.com > production manager > wired 520 third street fourth floor san francisco ca 94107 united states > ........................................................................ > for immediate emergency wireless access send email to van-page@wired.com > van@wired.com van@futuraworld.com pingpong@spy.net vanburnham@aol.com > From gram at cnct.com Fri Apr 17 15:20:08 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Must be a typo! References: Message-ID: <3537B978.AE8CC8AB@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Greg Troutman wrote: > > > Check out this entry I found on the web for a PAPERBACK book: > > > > ----------- > > Programming the 6502 Computer by Zaks, Rodney Sybex, Berkely, CA 1978 > > pbk near fine/ 305 p.8.5x5.3x.8 ISBN 0895880091 shelf wear otw clean > > tight bright no defects (Keywords: rodney zaks programming 6502 micro > > computer manual) The price of the book is US$ 153.00 > > > > The seller is Bennie R Warden - Bookseller > > 39 S Alhambra , Port St Lucie, FL, U.S.A., 34952-2832. > > benwarden@earthlink.net. Ph: 561 878-9645. Terms of sale: Ten day > > Reserve by E-Mail or Telephone. Sorry, No Credit Cards at this > > ----------- > > > > Fortunately, I got my copy for 25 cents at the Bargain Box a few years > > ago. > > This is beyond outrageous. I regularly find these sorts of books, and > ones even older and more interesting, at used book stores, thrift stores > and flea markets. What is this person thinking? This is taking the > "computer as antique" thing a bit too far. Could be worse. He could be trying out that price on something that TAB Books published. At least Sybex stuff has generally been worth the cover price. TAB always had that problem with the typesetters running out of colons or semi-colons and replacing one with the other in program listings -- took me days to debug the Star Trek program in the Tiny Pascal book. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 17 16:16:16 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-7000 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980417161616.48cf2bb2@intellistar.net> I just picked up a Sharp PC 7000. it's one of those lunch box sized portables with a LCD screen on one side and a fold up keyboard. This thing has a built-in real time clock. Does anyone have the software to read the clock and load the time into DOS? Joe From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 17 16:31:11 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: How big is a RA92? Message-ID: <13348607532.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> . I just got one. How big is a RA92? It doesn't appear to have a terminal plug like the 81 does... :( ------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 17 17:51:23 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Must be a typo! References: Message-ID: <3537DCEB.60062163@bbtel.com> Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Greg Troutman wrote: > > > > > Check out this entry I found on the web for a PAPERBACK book: > > > > > > ----------- > > > Programming the 6502 Computer by Zaks, Rodney Sybex, Berkely, CA 1978 > > > pbk near fine/ 305 p.8.5x5.3x.8 ISBN 0895880091 shelf wear otw clean > > > tight bright no defects (Keywords: rodney zaks programming 6502 micro > > > computer manual) The price of the book is US$ 153.00 > > > > Typo or heroine addict. > ^^^^^^^ > Heroine as in hero, or heroin as in drugs? It's not nice to mess with those that are spelling-challenged Don.... After 5 days of IRS forms I'm allowed a slip now and again. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 17 17:56:10 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? References: Message-ID: <3537DE0A.9C6CA4F@bbtel.com> John Rollins wrote: > \/\/@y c001 d00dz! > There are actually programs that will convert a text file into "warez" > format... Scary, isn't it? I think I have other text convertors stashed that change a text file into "jive", "valley girl" and yet another I can't think of right now for some reason. It might be Yankee like up in New England, specifically the stereotypical Vermont/New Hamster dialect. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Chwolka at nt-gmbh.de Fri Apr 17 16:45:11 1998 From: Chwolka at nt-gmbh.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: OS/2 Service Pack (a bit off-topic) References: <19980414203459.5002.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3537CD67.3E01@nt-gmbh.de> Max Eskin wrote: > > Does anyone have the Service Pack 1 for OS/2 2.0, or know of an > archive for it? IBM has nothing about it on their site. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com I'll say that you better use OS/2 V2.1 . I don't know if V2.0 was a real seld version. -- Greetings Fritz Chwolka / collecting old computers just for fun. +-----------------------------------------------------+ From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 17 17:59:49 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? References: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5402F1B227@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3537DEE4.5F76895B@bbtel.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Geez, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you guys... Anyone wanting an education into the occult want-to-be group of "warez-doodz" can start at this site: http://www.twofast.com/twoslow/ Be forewarned that it's completely graphical so text browsers are out of luck on this one and most other warez-filez type sites. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ # 1714857 * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pjoules at enterprise.net Fri Apr 17 16:50:55 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: This week is the week! Message-ID: <199804172216.XAA19759@mail.enterprise.net> > From: Tony Duell > The RA81 is _heavy_. If it's anything like the R80, then the official DEC > procedure is to take out the HDA when mounting the drive, to make it > light enough to handle. Yes the manual says that for the RA81 as well. It also says that it weighs 148 lbs! > Getting > it onto the rails with 2 people holding it is next to impossible. > Done that after fetching the drive from the car in a wheelbarrow ;-). The trick is to extend the rails (after extending the stabilising foot first) and then lift from below so that your arms don't get tangled with the rails. Once the drive is sitting on the rails squarely it is _fairly_ stable and can be juggled about to line up the screw holes. As a point of interest the book says that the drive takes 18 amps for the first four seconds whilst it is spinning up. Regards Pete From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Fri Apr 17 17:31:24 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: RA81 installation tech tip (real) In-Reply-To: <199804172216.XAA19759@mail.enterprise.net> from "Pete Joules" at Apr 17, 98 10:50:55 pm Message-ID: <199804172231.SAA28624@shell.monmouth.com> Semi-official secret DEC RA81 tech tip, works for RL02, RK05, RA80, BA-11K. (Was I supposed to turn this in to DEC when I quit?) Field Service RA81 rack mount installation trick -- works for second RA81 in 3 high cabinet and possibly bottom one if the special tool can go that low. With two people lift RA81 on to a hydraulic office chair set at it's maximum height. Lower chair to correct hight. Pull rails onto RA81 and latch. The trick is finding the 29-Class DEC part number for a hydraulic lift office chair 8-). Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 17 17:31:42 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: This week is the week! In-Reply-To: <199804172216.XAA19759@mail.enterprise.net> Message-ID: <13348618550.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [RA81 takes 18 amps to spin up] This is why I turn the RA on, spin it up, and THEN turn on the BA boxes. Otherwise I trip the power controller breaker. ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 17 14:15:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: HP thinkjet printer HP2225P In-Reply-To: from "John Rollins" at Apr 16, 98 08:29:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 998 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980417/fbbd60e6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 17 14:19:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: HP thinkjet printer HP2225P In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Apr 16, 98 09:20:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1303 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980417/6f958707/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 17 13:58:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info In-Reply-To: <000e01bd69a3$34302c80$8a010bce@fauradon> from "Francois" at Apr 16, 98 08:50:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1312 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980417/bb1f72c3/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 17 17:51:11 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Very cool book find Message-ID: Now this is maybe a book that's worth $153. Electronic Analog Computers (Second Edition, Hardcover) Subtitle: D-c Analog Computers Granino A. Korn, Ph.D. and Theresa M. Korn, M.S. McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1956 (Original copyright 1952) The lower-case 'c' is actually how its used in the book and the subtitle. Here's the first couple paragraphs from the preface of the book: D-c analog computers are relatively simple electronic devices now commonly in use to solve a variety of problems in applied mathematics and engineering design. The application of such computers to the simulation of modern automatic control systems has been particularly successful; but some acquaintance with d-c analog techniques can benefit almost any engineer or research worker, no matter what his special field may be. A d-c analog representation of a problem does not merely furnish needed numerical data. It often seves as a working model which helps to close the gap between physical intuition and exact analysis. The continuing remarkable progress in the related fields of electronic computers, instruments, and controls has led naturally to the preparation of a new, completely revised edition of _Electronic Analog Computers_. The greater part of the book has been entirely rewritten. We have attempted to carry out our original purposes, namely 1. To acquaint research and development workers with tried methods for the application of d-c analog computers as computing aids and simulators, and with the possibilities and limitations of such equipment; 2. To present a comprehensive body of up-to-date design information on computer components and systems. We believe that such information is of particlar interest to scientists and engineers engaged in the development of instruments and industrial control devices. *** There are also pictures and descriptions in here of computers that I have never even heard of, such as the Curtiss-Wright analog computer (CURTIAC); the Berkeley EASE (Electronic Analog and Simulation Equipment) computer made by the Berkeley Division of Beckman Instruments, Inc.; the Electronic Associates Precision Analog Computing Equipment (PACE); the Goodyear Electronic Differential Analyzer (GEDA) made by Goodyear Aircraft Corporation; and the Reeves Electronic Analog Computer (REAC) made by Reeves Instrument Corporation, New York City. Also: [A picture of a Donner Scientific analog computer] A complete table-top d-c analog computer priced just below $1,000. The unit comprises ten operational amplifiers, power supplies, all necessary controls, and a removable problem board. Multipliers and function generators are available as accessories (Donner Scientific Co.). [A picture of a Heath analog computer] This complete 15-amplifier machine is available as a do-it-yourself kit for less than $1,000. The amplifier tubes are top-mounted to minimize heating of components. The 30 coefficient-setting potentiometers are set by comparison with a built-in precision voltage divider which is also available for gain measurements (Heath Co.). Wow. The book is in excellent shape, save for the damn price written in grease pencil on the inside cover thanks to the stupid thrift store pricer. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From fauradon at pclink.com Fri Apr 17 18:13:45 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Quick Question Message-ID: <005e01bd6a56$79aaa480$70020bce@fauradon> Refering to the recent (and current) talks on the nintendo: Is it appropriate to talk about video consoles on this list? (they don't quite fit my definition of "computer") If so I need help with a Fairchild chanel F: Schenatics and any info on the hardware. Otherwyse forget my post. Thank you. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Hotze To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 17, 1998 1:10 AM Subject: How Do You Program Nintendo Games? >Well? How DO you program Nintendo games. Do you need to compile? Or is it >more like BASIC? Is it done in any specific language? > Just asking... > >Tim D. Hotze > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 17 18:06:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: This week is the week! In-Reply-To: <199804172216.XAA19759@mail.enterprise.net> from "Pete Joules" at Apr 17, 98 10:50:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1643 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980418/c1ed38d7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 17 18:09:00 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: RA81 installation tech tip (real) In-Reply-To: <199804172231.SAA28624@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Apr 17, 98 06:31:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 691 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980418/7a730b17/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Apr 17 18:28:46 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: This week is the week! Message-ID: <19980417232846.27824.qmail@hotmail.com> I can imagine DEC utility of the week - Ampmaker -"Overcome the 20 Amp limit - optimize your bootup sequence - eliminate those annoying explosions..." > >[RA81 takes 18 amps to spin up] > >This is why I turn the RA on, spin it up, and THEN turn on the BA boxes. >Otherwise I trip the power controller breaker. >------- > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Apr 17 18:36:33 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Non-classic but still interesting Message-ID: <19980417233633.27438.qmail@hotmail.com> A few weeks ago, I was charged with fixing a new Macintosh 5400/180. It had been in a music room, in a sound proof booth, for several months, with a MIDI interface being used for music software and the like. The problem was something with the hard drive. This is the second hard drive failure I've seen since an AT&T 6300. When the drive tries to seek, it sound like a pendulum is stopping (tick... tock,tock,tock,SILENCE). The head never sounds like it moves. The little LED on the drive flashes, though. This is an IDE, by the way. So, here's the good part. We sent in for a replacement, and in a few days, it's the same way. Now, I'm thinking it's a problem with the sound box's power supply, maybe those 2GW speakers in there. Any ideas before we fry another 8GB? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 17 21:27:06 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: OS/2 Service Pack (a bit off-topic) In-Reply-To: <3537CD67.3E01@nt-gmbh.de> References: <19980414203459.5002.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Max Eskin wrote: >> >> Does anyone have the Service Pack 1 for OS/2 2.0, or know of an >> archive for it? IBM has nothing about it on their site. >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >I'll say that you better use OS/2 V2.1 . >I don't know if V2.0 was a real seld version. Even the 2.1 beta's were better than 2.0, while 2.0 was a great OS, it had several VERY annonying, very troublesome bugs. I'd say get 1.3 (totally differen't very windows like), or 2.1, but skip 2.0. IIRC 2.0 is the only software I've ever destroyed for the floppies, instead of saving (something I now regret since I'm now into preserving everything). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From fauradon at pclink.com Fri Apr 17 21:41:13 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info Message-ID: <007501bd6a73$75d4b720$70020bce@fauradon> Well actually I never got into the Octal ting :) It's just that I had to with this trainer. >Some 8080 people/machines (I've not seen it done on many other >processors) write 16 bit numbers as 2 8-bit bytes in octal. They'd write >the above number as 151 257 and not 064657. That's what I'd assumed you >were doing here. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Apr 16 16:24:33 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: OT re:OT Message-ID: <199804180225.WAA04824@smtp.interlog.com> Hmmm 31 messages downloaded. Score ? Subject 19 Assholes errmm no thats The PC's Soviet 3 Star Treck At least more interesting than US dicks are bigger than Russian dicks 9 classiccmp related SAM !!!!!! I might have to rethink things. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Apr 16 16:24:34 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Wang Computer Message-ID: <199804180225.WAA04831@smtp.interlog.com> My most recent discard find is a Wang PC-S3-2 . It had had 2 winchester disks removed before being thrown out, but otherwise seems intact. No KB , monitor , or FDD's of course. From what I've been able to find on the net ( Wang CUG) it's an early "Classic PC" but this predates their oldest listed model specs. There seems to be many more sites on the CPM models but not on Wang PC's. The full-size motherboard has Z-80 and 8086 chips and 2 20 pinM ribbon connecters below two cutouts leading to the HD enclosure ,a centronics parallell printer, 25 pin serial, and KB ports on the rear. It has 5 half-size expansion slots .all occupied. One card is labelled PM 101 IBM Mono emulation and has 2 rear sockets. One is a regular 5pin kb socket and the other an 8pin din which I imagine is the monitor port. Strangely enough the same din as my Epson KB. This board is coupled with another by a 10 line ribbon cable. On either side of these are 2 cards that look identical the bottom-most labelled PM 021 / 022B Winchester Controller. Both have 20 pin and 10 pin male ribbon connectors. The top-most card looks like a memory card and has a LED. It's somewhat sparsely populated with mcm 6665 (motorola mem ?) and low-powered schotsky chips but traces for many more sockets. Seems pretty straight forward if it wasn't for the extra 20 pin connectors on the HD controller cards. Fdd connectors ? My lack of technical knowledge is showing. Maybe because of the company I'm keeping on this techno-whiz m-list. It's intimidating. :^) I believe Wang had it's own proprietory system and I did d-l a set-up from the Wang CUG site but info on this beast seems scarce, tho IIRC they were widely used in business operations. Anyone ?? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Apr 16 16:24:36 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: 5150 In-Reply-To: References: <199804142035.QAA06769@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 13, 98 03:35:12 pm Message-ID: <199804180225.WAA04856@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Apr 98 at 1:05, Tony Duell wrote: > [IBM 5150 cassette port] > > > I was thinking along the lines of an audio interface of some kind. From the > > above it seems possible, hooked to a synth, unless speed would be a problem. > > Well, audio output (single voice) would be trivial. After all, it was the > same signal that drove the speaker (well, there was an extra gate in the > speaker path). > > Other than that, it probably wouldn't be that useful... > > I wonder how hard it would be to convince the original IBM Async card's > current loop interface to talk to a MIDI device... _Might_ need a change > of Xtal or a strangely wired jumper. I will look at the schematics > sometime... > > Did any of the clones of the Async card have the current loop interface? > For that matter, did anyone ever use it for anything? > > -tony > When it comes to the asynch / synch interfacing I'm out of my depth. It's something I've been going to study up on tho. I've had an old Phillips Micom WP for some time which apparently was capable of communication protcols interfacing and I've wanted to retrieve some data on it , altho now I might be able to pull it off the 8'' disks with the TRS mod ll . Another project in waiting : ^ )). In exploring the programs on the 5150's Hard-card I found two small programs from the same company (PLUS) that made the hardcard. One was light.com and the other sound.com parameters were light= on/ off , and sound = on / off . Since the h-c itself had no external connectors, I'm wondering whether these are for the cassette port. This 5150 was also configured for 2 serial and 2 parallel which would square with the serial / para on the int.modem and the printer port on the Herc. leaving one serial unaccounted for. The only other connector is the f 37 pin ext. on the fdd controller card. ( for an external drive ? ) QUE's Upgrading and Repairing P.C.'s v.5 (BTW an excellent book with the most extensive info on PS2 s I've seen -V.5 only) doesn't mention this port tho it has a lot of detail on the 5150 and adapter cards. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Apr 16 16:24:32 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980415222619.7a1755b0@intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: <199804180225.WAA04865@smtp.interlog.com> On 15 Apr 98 at 22:26, Joe wrote: > At 05:12 PM 4/15/98 -0500, you wrote: > >I seem to recall reading somewhere (BYTE ~1985 ?) that Soviet made CPUs > >(6502 clones?) were so poorly maid that they individually came with a > >list of which instuctions worked and which didn't. Also seem to recall > >an article on the soviet Apple ][ clone of the time (CPU on a large > >daughterboard, pirated ROM, cost approx US $20,000) > > I remember that article. The entire motherboard was pirated! Not just > the ROM. The tops of the ICs had been ground off to hide the fact that they > were US made parts. > > Joe > Were those Honduran OR Malaysian US made parts ? I suppose they could have been the better quality Japanese US made parts. ; ^ )) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sat Apr 18 00:05:50 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: 5150 In-Reply-To: <199804180225.WAA04856@smtp.interlog.com> References: <199804142035.QAA06769@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980417220550.007f0540@wingate> At 09:24 PM 4/16/98 +0000, you wrote: >On 15 Apr 98 at 1:05, Tony Duell wrote: > [snip] >> Did any of the clones of the Async card have the current loop interface? >> For that matter, did anyone ever use it for anything? >> >> -tony >> The IBM Displaywriter PC Attach Convenience Kit (for document transfer between PC or PCjr and Displaywriter word processor) included a serial cable with a standard RS-232 connector to the PC async (actually has the PCjr-style connector with an adapter for use with the PC) and a big fat connector on the Displaywriter end, that actually includes a mini async card inside. The manual for the PCACK warns that the IBM Async adapter with current loopback mode enabled is required to make it work right. I didn't think the PCjr supported loopback though. It's been some time since I used the cable to transfer documents and I haven't seen the dox in years. [snip] > In exploring the programs on the 5150's Hard-card I found two small programs >from the same company (PLUS) that made the hardcard. One was light.com and the >other sound.com parameters were light= on/ off , and sound = on / off . Since >the h-c itself had no external connectors, I'm wondering whether these are for >the cassette port. I think light was used to simulate a drive access LED on the display. >This 5150 was also configured for 2 serial and 2 parallel >which would square with the serial / para on the int.modem and the printer port\ >on the Herc. leaving one serial unaccounted for. The only other connector is >the f 37 pin ext. on the fdd controller card. ( for an external drive ? ) Exactly, external 360K. >QUE's >Upgrading and Repairing P.C.'s v.5 (BTW an excellent book with the most >extensive info on PS2 s I've seen -V.5 only) doesn't mention this port tho it >has a lot of detail on the 5150 and adapter cards. We use the Mueller books here quite a lot--we stopped buying them after 4 ed. when he dropped the IBM PS lines from the specs section--oddly enough, the Family Ones (PC, XT, AT, etc.) are still covered in the latest (8?). 3 and 4 both have sections that show the different connector types one is likely to encounter, and the 37-pin external floppy port is listed there. He probably dropped it from the later editions to save space. > >ciao larry > >lwalker@interlog.com > -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Apr 17 18:27:44 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Altair scans update Message-ID: <000201bd6a7c$e695ae20$26e7fea9@bothell> Kai/others: The 4mm tape with the scans was forwarded to Bill Whitson several months ago (12/7/97) so that he could post them. I have heard neither hide nor hair from him since I got his real home address. If I had a personal web site with 100mb++ of storage, I'd post them to myself and pass out the URL. Alas, I don't... If someone lives near Bill Whitson, knock on his door and tell him to post the scans! Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:15:43 -0700 From: Kai Kaltenbach To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Altair scans update? Message-ID: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5402E0F5FB@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I check on this subject every 6 months whether I need to or not. What happened to this invaluable resource? Has it ever been posted anywhere? thanks Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: Kai Kaltenbach > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 10:56 AM > To: 'classiccmp@u.washington.edu' > Subject: RE: Altair scans update > > Whatever happened to these? > > thanks > > Kai > > ---------- > From: Richard A. Cini, Jr.[SMTP:rcini@classic.msn.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 5:31 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Altair scans update > > For those who have asked... > > The Altair scans are ready to post, I just have to ZIP them up and > send the > tape to Bill Whitson. Does anyone have his physical address?? > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Rich Cini/WUGNET > > - ClubWin Charter Member (6) > - MCP Windows 95/Netowrking > From jredin at earthlink.net Sat Apr 18 02:35:42 1998 From: jredin at earthlink.net (James Redin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Vintage Calculators Forum - Archival Pages Message-ID: <199804180816.BAA01936@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Attending several requests, I'm pleased to announce that today I've posted a new section in the Vintage Calculators section of the X-Number World with the archival pages of the Vintage Calculators Forum. The archival pages can be accessed in the following address: http://www.dotpoint.com/xnumber Section: VINTAGE CALCULATORS --> ARCHIVALS As you will see, you won't be able to post answers to the archived messages, but you will be able to send e-mail messages to the message owners. Regards, James Redin X-Number World of Calculators From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Sat Apr 18 04:03:01 1998 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Quick Question Message-ID: <01IW01T7DO028Y4Y17@AC.GRIN.EDU> > Refering to the recent (and current) talks on the nintendo: > Is it appropriate to talk about video consoles on this list? (they don't > quite fit my definition of "computer") > If so I need help with a Fairchild chanel F: Schenatics and any info on the > hardware. I should probably pop in and post my biannual pointer to the classic videogames list. Subscription address: classic-videogames-request@moose.webworks.ca -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH Wow, this is global. -Mtn Goats From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Apr 17 22:54:32 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? Message-ID: <002a01bd6a7d$d3cb1540$fb67bcc1@hotze> Yes, indeed, Warez people are the 3rd generation hackers. For the most part, they're not to good at all. They pretty much just take software and pirate it (hence the name "warez" pronounced "wares") They can hack NT (like someone can't!) And for the most part, think that UNIX is dead. They couldn't tell you the differance between a modem and a sound card, except "one has the phone jack". They don't do good, or even do anything that no one's done before. They just go in, say that they've "hacked" a website, and brag about it in a chat room for the next 50 hours. They're mostly teens, and techies-gone-bad. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 17, 1998 7:20 PM Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? > >At 21:01 16-04-98 -0700, wrote: >>At 11:50 PM 4/15/98 +0000, you wrote: >>>For nearly a week, have anyone seen James Willings's postings or in >>>private emails between anyone? >> >>No, contrary to popular belief (and random hopes) I have not fallen off the >>edge of the world... >> >>My local ISP got hit with a large scale 'warez' attack a couple of days ago >>and is still recovering... And of course that puts me just that much >>further behind in my mail... (and other things...) >> > --snip -- > >Forgive me for not knowing what _might_ be common knowledge amongst some >folks here, but what is this "warez" thing?? I guess I don't hang around in >any online areas, etc. which would have clued me in. Just a brief >explaination, please, or even a pointer to an info source. No need to take >up much bandwidth on this. > >Judging from Jim's statement, these are possibly individuals who have taken >the good old, original 'hacker' expression and turned it into something >truely bad? Glad you're still around, Jim. >-- -- > >======================================================= >Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >31 Houston Avenue Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home >Jamestown, New York +716-661-1832 -Office >14701-2627 USA Fax: +716-661-1888 -Office fax > email: cfandt@servtech.com >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Apr 17 22:32:12 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: How Do You Program Nintendo Games? Message-ID: <001e01bd6a7a$c3857660$fb67bcc1@hotze> No, I'm not, it was for a friend, who's really into video games... Thanks anyway, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Dies Irrae To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, April 17, 1998 5:33 PM Subject: Re: How Do You Program Nintendo Games? >If you are looking into a future of programming video games then check out >www.digipen.com (I think that is it). I visited them once and was very >impressed. > >-Enrique! From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sat Apr 18 06:05:01 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: RA81 installation tech tip (real) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 18, 98 00:09:00 am Message-ID: <199804181105.HAA05100@shell.monmouth.com> > > With two people lift RA81 on to a hydraulic office chair set at it's > > maximum height. Lower chair to correct hight. Pull rails onto RA81 > > and latch. > > ROFL!!!.... And then I realised that you're right and it would be > next-to-ideal. Of course finding space for a chair anywhere near my PDP11 > is left as an exercise for the reader :-) > > > Bill > > -tony > When you're working 4 to midnight doing installs alone you get inventive. The sooner it's in the rack, the sooner you go home. I did this for 5 years and it worked great if one of those secretary type armless chairs was around. One thing about Field Service at DEC -- resourceful folks survive. It's kind of like salvaging these classic computers. Well, it's time to be off to the Trenton Computer Festival to dumpster dive. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Apr 18 08:06:21 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: OS/2 Service Pack (a bit off-topic) Message-ID: <19980418130622.4079.qmail@hotmail.com> You don't understand. I take what I can get. It's not like there is a library that lets me pick the OS/2 version that I want. But what bugs are in 2.0? > >>Max Eskin wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone have the Service Pack 1 for OS/2 2.0, or know of an >>> archive for it? IBM has nothing about it on their site. >>> >>> ______________________________________________________ >>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >>I'll say that you better use OS/2 V2.1 . >>I don't know if V2.0 was a real seld version. > >Even the 2.1 beta's were better than 2.0, while 2.0 was a great OS, it had >several VERY annonying, very troublesome bugs. > >I'd say get 1.3 (totally differen't very windows like), or 2.1, but skip >2.0. IIRC 2.0 is the only software I've ever destroyed for the floppies, >instead of saving (something I now regret since I'm now into preserving >everything). > > Zane > > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | >| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | >| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From emu at ecubics.com Sat Apr 18 11:07:23 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: How big is a RA92? Message-ID: <19980418155545.AAA28167@2Cust120.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Daniel, 1.5GB cheers, emanuel ---------- > From: Daniel A. Seagraves > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: How big is a RA92? > Date: Friday, April 17, 1998 3:31 PM > > > . I just got one. How big is a RA92? > > It doesn't appear to have a terminal plug like the 81 does... :( > ------- From kyrrin at jps.net Sat Apr 18 12:09:45 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: FW: PDP-11/23 available, probably cheap Message-ID: <3546de00.3744571959@smtp.jps.net> Want an 11/23 system? Check with this fellow directly if so. I have no clue where he's located. -=-=- -=-=- From: fhoffman@solarex.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro,alt.sys.pdp-11 Subject: old working system, for sale? Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:19:25 -0600 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6h7ved$8ee$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.252.193.136 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Apr 17 16:19:25 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows NT) Path: blushng.jps.net!nntp.snfc21.pbi.net!news.pbi.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail I have PDP-11/23's with lots of spares. The system was used as a multi- tasking host for 2 slave LSI computers. It is currently configured running RT-11FB but will run TSX. Host has 256k 200nS RAM, AED disk controller with Seagate ST-251 formatted as 4 RL02 drives, 1 RX02 8" floppy. The networking connection was done using Star-11 cards. It was running at the time the plug was pulled so this is a working system. It was being used to test Photovoltaic devices (solar cells). The slaves were being used as test controllers and the host was for booting the slaves and storing test results. The slaves include Data Translation data acquisition cards and ADAC high current digital I/O cards. All of this is based on Q-bus. E-mail if interested, because it will soon go to the dumpster. Forrest -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, SysOp, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin {at} j

s d[o]t n=e=t "...No matter how hard we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living creature, in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them!..." From dastar at wco.com Sat Apr 18 13:35:34 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam Message-ID: I know this is off-topic, but this is the type of crowd that can appreciate this. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:49:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Spencer.A.Smith@Switzerland.com To: OpportunitySeeker@wco.com Subject: Here Is The Information You Requested! Subject: Here Is The Information You Asked For! Please excuse this intrusion. Your Name Has ALREADY BEEN DELETED from our database. --- First they use the lame ploy of trying to trick you into thinking you requested the information at some previous time (has this ever worked on anyone!?) and then acknowledge that it is in fact unsolicited spam by apologizing for the intrusion. The really lame part is that this message was almost 20K! That is an abuse of bandwidth that really should be punishable by death. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Apr 18 10:03:37 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Seriously Off Topic(?) CGI... Message-ID: <004c01bd6adb$468a6920$1067bcc1@hotze> Is this off topic? How old is CGI? As old as Netscape 1.x? Anyway, does anyone know it? Where can I get good database scripts (for users, etc.) Thanks, and sorry for my waste of all-presious bandwith, Tim D. Hotze From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 18 15:19:31 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: A few finds Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980418151931.006bd94c@pop3.concentric.net> Thursday was a pretty good day as I found the folowing: a real nice book called Microprocessors and Microcomputers Manufacturer's Literature by the learning tree, great information on microprocesors, microcomputers, peripherals, logic analyzers, logic chips, probes, breadboard systems; another by Horowitz and Hill The Art of Electronics; HP9121 model D; IBM 7207-001 tape unit; IBM 7210-001 CD-rom; Apollo monitor 17"; IBM 3363 cd-rom unit; VT240 unit; Honeywelll Bull computer; HP9816 monitor/terminal; Mac 128k mouse;3M D-2500 character generator; Unite digital test board; NEC PC-8201A computer; and other items not in the 10 year rule. From mor at crl.com Sat Apr 18 15:17:47 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Must be a typo! References: <3537B978.AE8CC8AB@cnct.com> Message-ID: <35390A6B.1C702311@crl.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Could be worse. He could be trying out that price on something that > TAB Books published. At least Sybex stuff has generally been worth > the cover price. TAB always had that problem with the typesetters > running out of colons or semi-colons and replacing one with the other > in program listings -- took me days to debug the Star Trek program in > the Tiny Pascal book. Yeah, the TAB books are kinda chintzy, but I like the wide range of topics they've covered. Endless titles on pet robots, building pong systems with TTL, radio astronomy with home appliances, etc. ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sat Apr 18 17:22:39 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Global Computer Catalog Message-ID: <19980418222239.2387.qmail@hotmail.com> I got a July '87 copy of a computer catalog, and it had a product which I found pretty interesting. This was a small modem-sized box that went between the keyboard and the computer. It was a hardware spell-checker, powered off the keyboard, costing $20. It was supposed to beep upon detecting a mistake. Seems like a good idea. Anyone seen something like it? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From TOwad at aol.com Sat Apr 18 17:40:17 1998 From: TOwad at aol.com (T Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: IBM Executary Message-ID: Can anybody tell me what an IBM Executary is? To describe it briefly (I didn't have much time to look at it), it is a small box, blue on the bottom with a dial on the front, a few knobs/switches here and there, and a very large hole in the side. Connected to it is a pedal of sorts. Push on the right and it clicks, same with the left. Can anybody tell me what it is? Is it worth $6? Thanks, Tom From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sat Apr 18 20:59:36 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: IBM Executary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980418185936.007ca3e0@wingate> At 06:40 PM 4/18/98 EDT, you wrote: >Can anybody tell me what an IBM Executary is? To describe it briefly (I >didn't have much time to look at it), it is a small box, blue on the bottom >with a dial on the front, a few knobs/switches here and there, and a very >large hole in the side. Connected to it is a pedal of sorts. Push on the >right and it clicks, same with the left. Can anybody tell me what it is? Is >it worth $6? > >Thanks, >Tom > Sounds like a dictation machine to me. -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 18 17:29:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: 5150 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980417220550.007f0540@wingate> from "David Wollmann" at Apr 17, 98 10:05:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980418/9993c9cf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 18 17:07:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: 5150 In-Reply-To: <199804180225.WAA04856@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 16, 98 09:24:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1838 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980418/3b85f420/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 18 17:26:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? In-Reply-To: <002a01bd6a7d$d3cb1540$fb67bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Apr 18, 98 06:54:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1435 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980418/31f0f584/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Apr 18 16:27:48 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <3534E603.61C1@mail.intel.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980418142748.00896710@agora.rdrop.com> > >If we're talking about hundreds or more, you want an automated solution. >There are several companies which have sold modernish punched card >readers in the past couple of years with RS-232 interfaces on them; >the ones I see most often are Mountain Computer units which are about >the size of a 2-slice toaster and can stack a couple of hundred cards in >the input hopper. There's both a mark-sense and a punched-card version >of this unit. > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) So, pray tell... do you know what the difference is between the Mark Sense and Punch Card versions of the Mountain Computer reader? (and how to tell which is which?) I have one of these units in my collection, and even though it happily accepts the commands which should read punched cards, it always feeds one card and then returns an error. So, I would start to think that it is the mark sense version, but have never really found any identifiers on it. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From marvin at rain.org Sat Apr 18 23:46:19 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Finally, a Next Computer References: <3.0.5.32.19980418185936.007ca3e0@wingate> Message-ID: <3539819A.4CDDD51A@rain.org> I finally added a Next machine to the collection. A model N1200, it came with color monitor, speaker, keyboard, and mouse. A friend of mine saw two of them out at the University for $100 each and picked up both, one for him and one for me!!! Seems to work, but so far, no docs or additional software aside from what was installed on the machine. The only downside is the University engraved "UCSB MCL" on each piece of the system. Oh well, at least I have a working Next! From dastar at wco.com Sun Apr 19 00:07:41 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Can you identify this board? Message-ID: Someone I know wants to identify an interesting Intel board they own. Its about 18" wide by 12" high. It has the following markings on it: Intel System Interface and Control Module MCB8-10 It has some odd chips, a 3-prong oval power socket and a S-100 like connector. Does anyone know what this is or for? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 19 01:17:51 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Test Equip FS Message-ID: <3539970F.220A3AAC@bbtel.com> Ive had this posted in the past but these are really getting in my way: *Tektronix 7612D programmable digitizer (scope w/o a screen) with two 7A16A plugins. No manuals or cables but it appears to be in terrific shape otherwise. $150 plus shipping or will consider trades. *Kontron KLA64 64 channel logic analyser - 2 complete units, cables, manuals, covers, software, etc. They also have an optional unit installed internally. Includes Axiom video printer. All items go as a package - $325 plus shipping. Sorry no trades and will not separate. Total weight about 160 lbs for everything. Can email detailed info to those interested. I bought these in an auction lot and the above pricing is what I have into them. I bought the auction lot to primarily obtain a digital oscilloscope for my shop but the above items are R&D oriented and realy have no use in my repair shop. Both are still supported by repair, calibration and parts outfits as well as the manufacturers. I have sources for the manual for the Tek 7612D and plugins as well so you don't need to be concerrned that you'll not be able to work it without a manual. The manuals for the Kontrons is very detailed and is from setup and use to parts and adjustment. I'm trying to be as discrete as possible about posting these and I'm sure some people are tired of seeing it come back up but there are new people to the list that may not know of them and possibly be interested. Please reply direct to me, not to the list. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sun Apr 19 01:14:57 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:25 2005 Subject: Test Equip FS In-Reply-To: <3539970F.220A3AAC@bbtel.com> References: <3539970F.220A3AAC@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <354495ab.367777115@hoser> Were you going to provide some scanned pictures of these units? I'm still interested. Also, in your last message to me about these, you seemed to be saying you were selling BOTH the logic analyzers for $300, or was this $300 EACH? On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:17:51 -0500, you wrote: >Ive had this posted in the past but these are really getting in my way: > >*Tektronix 7612D programmable digitizer (scope w/o a screen) with two >7A16A plugins. No manuals or cables but it appears to be in terrific >shape otherwise. $150 plus shipping or will consider trades. > >*Kontron KLA64 64 channel logic analyser - 2 complete units, cables, >manuals, covers, software, etc. They also have an optional unit >installed internally. Includes Axiom video printer. All items go as a >package - $325 plus shipping. Sorry no trades and will not separate. >Total weight about 160 lbs for everything. > >Can email detailed info to those interested. I bought these in an >auction lot and the above pricing is what I have into them. I bought the > >auction lot to primarily obtain a digital oscilloscope for my shop but >the above items are R&D oriented and realy have no use in my repair >shop. Both are still supported by repair, calibration and parts outfits >as well as the manufacturers. I have sources for the manual for the Tek >7612D and plugins as well so you don't need to be concerrned that you'll > >not be able to work it without a manual. The manuals for the Kontrons is > >very detailed and is from setup and use to parts and adjustment. > >I'm trying to be as discrete as possible about posting these and I'm >sure some people are tired of seeing it come back up but there are new >people to the list that may not know of them and possibly be interested. > >Please reply direct to me, not to the list. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From lisard at zetnet.co.uk Sun Apr 19 05:56:23 1998 From: lisard at zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam Message-ID: <199804191056.LAA12305@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> :I know this is off-topic, but this is the type of crowd that can :appreciate this. [spam frittered away] this is odd - we got exactly the same message chez communa. we're just wondering which address list they used, for sam's name to be on it as well as ours... -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Apr 19 06:59:09 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: How Old Is Object-Oriented Programming? Message-ID: <000901bd6b8a$957e8e80$5c6fbcc1@hotze> Well? Tim D. Hotze From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Apr 19 07:50:33 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: A few finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980418151931.006bd94c@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980419075033.2eff78d8@intellistar.net> At 03:19 PM 4/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >Thursday was a pretty good day as I found the folowing: a real nice book >called Microprocessors and Microcomputers Manufacturer's Literature by the >learning tree, great information on microprocesors, microcomputers, >peripherals, logic analyzers, logic chips, probes, breadboard systems; >another by Horowitz and Hill The Art of Electronics; HP9121 model D; IBM >7207-001 tape unit; IBM 7210-001 CD-rom; Apollo monitor 17"; IBM 3363 >cd-rom unit; VT240 unit; Honeywelll Bull computer; HP9816 monitor/terminal; John, The 9816 is a complete computer. It uses a 68000 CPU and is one of the HP 9000 /200 series. Most of the peripherals including the drives connect via the HP-IB. The 9816 has four expansion slots. The 9121 is a dual disk drive with dingle sided drives and can be used with the 9816. E-mail if you need more info. Joe >Mac 128k mouse;3M D-2500 character generator; Unite digital test board; NEC >PC-8201A computer; and other items not in the 10 year rule. > > From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 19 08:52:04 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Test Equip FS References: <3539970F.220A3AAC@bbtel.com> <354495ab.367777115@hoser> Message-ID: <353A0183.71C1650A@bbtel.com> Bill Richman wrote: > Were you going to provide some scanned pictures of these units? I'm > still interested. Also, in your last message to me about these, you > seemed to be saying you were selling BOTH the logic analyzers for > $300, or was this $300 EACH? I thought maybe you'd lost interest. I hadn't heard from you about whether you could view graphics or recieve attached files (the people you figure would - can't). I'll whip out the Polaroid today and get an overall shot and a front panel shot then attach them to a reply to you. The $300 was for EVERYTHING except the shipping. There are two KLA's at 65 lbs each and a box with manuals, software, cables, etc that weighs nearly 40 lbs. It shouldn't be too bad to UPS or USPS them to Nebraska but the last person that inquired was in LA and it was sky high ($175 shipping).. UPS's rate calculator shows each 65 lb analyser with $250 each in insurance (and the fee added by the local shipping point) at roughly $20 each to you so that's not bad at all. My first guess would be around $55-60 for total shipping. The bad part is that it has to be shipped as 3 separate packages. I'll have to get some of that sheet foam they use for house insulation to pack it if you decide that you want them. They are in great shape but I have absolutely no use for them and have to reclaim what I have in them soon. I borrowed what I was short from a buddy (he loaned me $300 to finalize my auction bid) and since a lot of the other excess got swapped (such as the modem tester) I'm short of cash to finish paying him in full. I've been giving him $25 a week but I hesistate giving him cash from my working capital as it would leave me short on a large project such as building a new machine. I didn't notice before but you've got some really neat info on your web site. That picture of the robot is Tobor, isn't it? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 19 08:57:42 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: PS/2 SCSI question Message-ID: <353A02D6.12606C18@bbtel.com> I was wondering if anyone knew the particulars about the PS/2 SCSI external connector on the model 80 server I have. It appears to be a miniature high density 60 pin connector, This is totally different than the standard SCSI 2 or 3 connections that I've seen. Is there an adapter available to be able to hook it to a standard SCSI I, II or III cable/connector? I want to be able to use my CDROM towers with it if possible. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 19 08:59:52 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Crap! Message-ID: <353A0357.E35718B8@bbtel.com> Sorry about not checking the reply-to address in the message to Bill. I'm getting brain dead anymore and will move it to private email from now on. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Apr 19 09:04:26 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Zinith ZWL 183-93 "Laptop" Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980419100426.0069d27c@mail.wincom.net> Turned up one of these on Friday. It has a 21 meg HD, an 8088, and is about like having a flat bed scanner on your lap! No power supply and battery pack (10 size "D" nicads) shot, but got it working off my bench power supply. It appears to be working normally and I think I can rig up a power supply from a Sony version for a portable VTR. Is anyone familiar with this beast? It must be one of the earliest laptops. I also got three C-64's in the '128 style cases, but didn't get into them yet. Regards Charlie Fox From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 19 10:19:40 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Zinith ZWL 183-93 "Laptop" References: <3.0.2.32.19980419100426.0069d27c@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <353A160C.323F4952@bbtel.com> Charles E. Fox wrote: > I also got three C-64's in the '128 style cases, but didn't get into them yet. They are the C64C model. Hopefully you got the power supply bricks as well. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sun Apr 19 11:26:12 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980418142748.00896710@agora.rdrop.com> References: <3534E603.61C1@mail.intel.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980419092612.007c4100@wingate> At 02:27 PM 4/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >> >>If we're talking about hundreds or more, you want an automated solution. >>There are several companies which have sold modernish punched card >>readers in the past couple of years with RS-232 interfaces on them; >>the ones I see most often are Mountain Computer units [snip] >> >>Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > >So, pray tell... do you know what the difference is between the Mark Sense >and Punch Card versions of the Mountain Computer reader? (and how to tell >which is which?) > >I have one of these units in my collection, and even though it happily >accepts the commands which should read punched cards, it always feeds one >card and then returns an error. So, I would start to think that it is the >mark sense version, but have never really found any identifiers on it. > >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 The mark sense readers depend on a series of "timing marks" printed on the (lower?) edge of the card in order to work and I don't think they're very good at sensing anything but very dark marks (remember the "special" (#1 lead) pencils you had to use when you filled out those cards in grade school?) Visit Doug Jones' web site and drop him an email. He's very interested in punched cards and knows quite a bit about readers, old and new. And while you're at it, invite him to subscribe to this list. ;) http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/index.html -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From gram at cnct.com Sun Apr 19 09:43:11 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Zinith ZWL 183-93 "Laptop" References: <3.0.2.32.19980419100426.0069d27c@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <353A0D7F.CBE7573@cnct.com> Charles E. Fox wrote: > > Turned up one of these on Friday. It has a 21 meg HD, an 8088, and is > about like having a flat bed scanner on your lap! > No power supply and battery pack (10 size "D" nicads) shot, but got it > working off my bench power supply. It appears to be working normally and I > think I can rig up a power supply from a Sony version for a portable VTR. > Is anyone familiar with this beast? It must be one of the earliest laptops. The Z-183, IIRC, is vintage 1988, maybe as old as 1987. It was a fairly straightforward XT/CGA-mono laptop in the days when there was a two or more year lag between implementation of a CPU in a desktop and its implementation in a portable. During the 1988 television writers' strike, I'd swear that at least half the writers in LA county came into the store I worked at in Sherman Oaks and bought new Zenith laptops to replace their aging Kaypros -- though my specialty was Xenix and Unix, I must have spent most of three months Laplinking Wordstar documents from Kaypro disks to Zenith 181 and 183 laptops (using appropriate utilities to read the Kaypro floppies in desktop PCs). For its time, the Zenith laptops were among the nicest looking laptops around -- a long way from the butt-ugly desktop boxes Zenith built. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 19 09:43:04 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <19980419144304.23744.qmail@hotmail.com> For one thing, why not build a reader? Ought to be a fun weekend project ;) The other question is whether the Scantron units use optics or electric sensors for checking multiple choice tests. >The mark sense readers depend on a series of "timing marks" printed on the >(lower?) edge of the card in order to work and I don't think they're very >good at sensing anything but very dark marks (remember the "special" (#1 >lead) pencils you had to use when you filled out those cards in grade school?) > >Visit Doug Jones' web site and drop him an email. He's very interested in >punched cards and knows quite a bit about readers, old and new. And while >you're at it, invite him to subscribe to this list. ;) > >http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/index.html > >-- >David Wollmann | >dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. >DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM >http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 19 10:45:55 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: C128D Manual needed Message-ID: <353A1C32.F14B2D26@bbtel.com> Anyone have a manual laying around for a Commode-Ore C128D? This is the 128 model that has the separate keyboard and built in drive and power supply, in a PC style case. If anyone has one we can work out a good price or swap something for it. I need it for my own machine that I recently acquired and the regular 128 manual just doesn't get it. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Apr 19 10:05:52 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: How do I tell RSX11-M to make a RL02 bootable? Message-ID: <13349061675.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Moving RSX from that RDwhatever that's making bearing noises to a RL02. Copied all the data files and such to the RL, but the RL isn't bootable. When I try booting it types ** THIS IS NOT A HARDWAREBOOTABLE VOLUME ** or something along those lines. This is RSX11-M v4.1 It's a severely butchered configuration made for a graphics workstation by Genigraphics, that I hope to try making useful. If the command required doesn't exist, (Likely!) I cam reload RT-11 and kermit the RL up to a PC, put a bootblock on the front, download it again, and go. Does that sound do-able? ------- From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Apr 19 10:14:26 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: PS/2 SCSI question In-Reply-To: <353A02D6.12606C18@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980419081426.00e438a0@mail.wa.jps.net> At 08:57 19-04-98 -0500, you wrote: >I was wondering if anyone knew the particulars about the PS/2 SCSI >external connector on the model 80 server I have. It appears to be a Yeppers. I've seen the special IBM cable for it (it is proprietary to IBM). It has a mate for the oddball that takes it out to a standard Centronics-style 50-pin. You can still buy the cable from IBM, but it'll run you about $60. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sun Apr 19 12:46:16 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: PS/2 SCSI question In-Reply-To: <353A02D6.12606C18@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980419104616.007ca4f0@wingate> At 08:57 AM 4/19/98 -0500, you wrote: >I was wondering if anyone knew the particulars about the PS/2 SCSI >external connector on the model 80 server I have. It appears to be a >miniature high density 60 pin connector, This is totally different than >the standard SCSI 2 or 3 connections that I've seen. Is there an adapter >available to be able to hook it to a standard SCSI I, II or III >cable/connector? I want to be able to use my CDROM towers with it if >possible. Russ, That's a Centronics Micro. I have a Asus SC875 (NCR) host adapter that uses the same connector (great adapter for Linux, BTW.) I got my cable (Cent. Micro to Cent. Std.) from Datalink, right here in Tulsa. They recently moved and I don't have the new #, just dial (918) 555-1212 for Tulsa directory assistance. We've used these guys for years--they do a lot of "custom" cables, including the IBM PCjr keyboard and serial adapter cables. If you can describe the connectors, cable and pinouts, they can build it for you. One of these days I'm going to call Datalink and have them put together one of each type of SCSI cable, including internals, for me. Seems like every time I add a new SCSI device to my system I need a cable I don't have and can't find in the stores. Computer City salesman: "Scuzzy? Hmm, what is that, a video card?...Oh, well, we have the new Enhanced IDE drives and they're really fast! I can get you one of those cables." Whatever. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Apr 19 11:51:21 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: How do I tell RSX11-M to make a RL02 bootable? In-Reply-To: <13349061675.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 19, 98 08:05:52 am Message-ID: <9804191551.AA31443@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 869 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980419/ea877e3e/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Apr 19 11:57:08 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980418142748.00896710@agora.rdrop.com> from "James Willing" at Apr 18, 98 02:27:48 pm Message-ID: <9804191557.AA23767@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1587 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980419/d341b037/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 19 00:13:33 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Finally, a Next Computer In-Reply-To: <3539819A.4CDDD51A@rain.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19980418185936.007ca3e0@wingate> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980418221333.00896d90@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:46 PM 4/18/98 -0700, Marvin wrote: >I finally added a Next machine to the collection. A model N1200, it came >with color monitor, speaker, keyboard, and mouse. A friend of mine saw two >of them out at the University for $100 each and picked up both, one for him >and one for me!!! Seems to work, but so far, no docs or additional software >aside from what was installed on the machine. The only downside is the >University engraved "UCSB MCL" on each piece of the system. Oh well, at >least I have a working Next! Congrats. They are neat units. I just added a NeXT 'Cube' with printer to the collection (now I just need to get a monitor ordered so I can fire it up). Something just too appropriate about a computer that really is a big black box! B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Apr 19 11:23:45 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: A few finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980419075033.2eff78d8@intellistar.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19980418151931.006bd94c@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980419112345.006c3e68@pop3.concentric.net> Thanks for the the info and I will follow up with more questions as I try ti fire it up. Thanks again John At 07:50 AM 4/19/98, you wrote: >At 03:19 PM 4/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Thursday was a pretty good day as I found the folowing: a real nice book >>called Microprocessors and Microcomputers Manufacturer's Literature by the >>learning tree, great information on microprocesors, microcomputers, >>peripherals, logic analyzers, logic chips, probes, breadboard systems; >>another by Horowitz and Hill The Art of Electronics; HP9121 model D; IBM >>7207-001 tape unit; IBM 7210-001 CD-rom; Apollo monitor 17"; IBM 3363 >>cd-rom unit; VT240 unit; Honeywelll Bull computer; HP9816 monitor/terminal; > > John, > > The 9816 is a complete computer. It uses a 68000 CPU and is one of the HP >9000 /200 series. Most of the peripherals including the drives connect via >the HP-IB. The 9816 has four expansion slots. The 9121 is a dual disk >drive with dingle sided drives and can be used with the 9816. E-mail if >you need more info. > > Joe > > > >>Mac 128k mouse;3M D-2500 character generator; Unite digital test board; NEC >>PC-8201A computer; and other items not in the 10 year rule. >> >> > > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 19 11:27:43 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <19980419144304.23744.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980419092743.0357c9e0@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:43 AM 4/19/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: > >For one thing, why not build a reader? Ought to be a fun weekend >project ;) The other question is whether the Scantron units use >optics or electric sensors for checking multiple choice tests. The ScanTron units are optical. (I have a couple of them in my collection) They also have different sensing heads available as options for reading pencil marks or ink marks. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sun Apr 19 13:28:21 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Finally, a Next Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980418221333.00896d90@agora.rdrop.com> References: <3539819A.4CDDD51A@rain.org> <3.0.5.32.19980418185936.007ca3e0@wingate> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980419112821.007d4100@wingate> At 10:13 PM 4/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >At 09:46 PM 4/18/98 -0700, Marvin wrote: >>I finally added a Next machine to the collection. A model N1200, it came [snippers] >Congrats. They are neat units. > >I just added a NeXT 'Cube' with printer to the collection (now I just need >to get a monitor ordered so I can fire it up). > >Something just too appropriate about a computer that really is a big black >box! B^} > >-jim > >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 I've been looking at getting a NeXT, but the price of the OS and Development tools is downright frightening--US$5,000, IIRC? Geez. I wonder if they will ever make collector's license available? -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Apr 19 11:36:59 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: How do I tell RSX11-M to make a RL02 bootable? In-Reply-To: <9804191551.AA31443@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <13349078264.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [BOO DL0:[1,54]RSX11M and say SAV] No, I used UFD o make all the directories, and then said PIP DL0:[*,*]*.*;*=DU0:[*,*]*.*;*/FO I don't have any RSX manuals. Except the user intor manual for v4.5... [The RT-11 bootblock won't...] I meant put a RSX bootblock on the front. I need RT-11 to do the kermitting. ------- From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Apr 19 11:44:47 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <003901bd6bb2$8eb7c1c0$5c6fbcc1@hotze> >For one thing, why not build a reader? Ought to be a fun weekend >project ;) The other question is whether the Scantron units use >optics or electric sensors for checking multiple choice tests. I'm not sure about this, but electronic makes a LOT more sense. That's why whenevery ou fill in one of those bubble sheets, they make sure that you use a "Number 2 pencil." Because it has carbon in it. With an optical solution, anything from crayon to pen to marker should work, if it were black. Just my 0.02... Tim D. Hotze From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 19 13:31:05 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: PS/2 SCSI question References: <3.0.5.32.19980419104616.007ca4f0@wingate> Message-ID: <353A42E9.CCDF983A@bbtel.com> David Wollmann wrote: > That's a Centronics Micro. I have a Asus SC875 (NCR) host adapter that uses > the same connector (great adapter for Linux, BTW.) I got my cable (Cent. > Micro to Cent. Std.) from Datalink, right here in Tulsa. They recently > moved and I don't have the new #, just dial (918) 555-1212 for Tulsa > directory assistance. We've used these guys for years--they do a lot of > "custom" cables, including the IBM PCjr keyboard and serial adapter cables. > If you can describe the connectors, cable and pinouts, they can build it > for you. I'll check with them. Do you know what SCSI level the Cent/micro is compatible with? I assume by the 60 pins that it's SCSI 1 with a few excess pins. I'm not sure but since you mention it that the Sun cards I had used the same type. It may have used the normal 50 pin HPHD type. They are about the same size. Thanks. > Computer City salesman: "Scuzzy? Hmm, what is that, a video card?...Oh, > well, we have the new Enhanced IDE drives and they're really fast! I can > get you one of those cables." Whatever. Better than the average answer you'd get at the normal Radio Shack.... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 19 13:47:51 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: PS/2 SCSI question References: <3.0.3.32.19980419081426.00e438a0@mail.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: <353A46D6.49A88403@bbtel.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > Yeppers. I've seen the special IBM cable for it (it is proprietary to > IBM). It has a mate for the oddball that takes it out to a standard > Centronics-style 50-pin. > > You can still buy the cable from IBM, but it'll run you about $60. Thanks, I'll look between what Dave and you have given me. This is the first time I've ever considered usuing the external connector on one so it's the first time I've even looked to see that it's an oddball. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 19 14:06:42 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: PS/2 SCSI question References: <3.0.5.32.19980419104616.007ca4f0@wingate> Message-ID: <353A4B41.CBA00B33@bbtel.com> I found a place in NY called Aries that has the cables at nearly IBM's pricing but they do have them. The mini-Centronics 60 is also called an RS-6000 connector from what I've gathered on this and another site in Germany. That Aries Direct site is located at http://www.netflash.com/cables.com/g-4.htm David Wollmann wrote: > That's a Centronics Micro. I have a Asus SC875 (NCR) host adapter that uses > the same connector (great adapter for Linux, BTW.) I got my cable (Cent. > Micro to Cent. Std.) from Datalink, right here in Tulsa. They recently > moved and I don't have the new #, just dial (918) 555-1212 for Tulsa > directory assistance. We've used these guys for years--they do a lot of > "custom" cables, including the IBM PCjr keyboard and serial adapter cables. > If you can describe the connectors, cable and pinouts, they can build it > for you. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Apr 19 13:11:02 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: How long am I supposed to let this run? Message-ID: <13349095384.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> BOO has been sitting for just over an hour, hitting the disks now and then. What is it up to? This is an 11/83. Everything else worked OK... ------- From jruschme at exit109.com Sun Apr 19 13:21:01 1998 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Aaps MicroTV- looking for drivers Message-ID: <353A408D.B9208C1@exit109.com> (This message is being cross-posted to the Classic Computers and Classic Macs mailing lists. I apologize in advance to anyone seeing more than one copy.) This past weekend I acquired an Aaps MicroTV card, without any software or manuals. From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Apr 19 09:55:23 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Apple drive for Diamond TrackStar Message-ID: <005101bd6bc6$bbb2dd40$b8722599@bothell> Hello, all: I just got myself a Diamond TrackStar Apple//-in-a-PC board. What little info that I could find says that you can hook an Apple floppy drive to it. However, in two places, the info says that it takes a standard Apple floppy, and then it says a Unidrive. Has anyone used this board? Which drive would it use? I know that it has a 20-pin header on the board for the floppy. Any clues?? Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Apr 19 14:38:49 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Apple drive for Diamond TrackStar Message-ID: <3fe3e813.353a52cb@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-19 15:18:07 EDT, you write: << Has anyone used this board? Which drive would it use? I know that it has a 20-pin header on the board for the floppy. Any clues?? >> since it has the 20pin header, it will use the old full height disk ][ drives. adaptors have been made to let the later unidisk drives with the db15 connector work with disk ][ type connectors but i do not have specifics. david From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Apr 19 15:02:42 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: BOO is still going... Message-ID: <13349115712.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> It bangs the disks every 10 minutes or so... What is it doing that takes a 3 hour runtime? I can see a sysgen or reload taking that long, but a bootsector write? ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Sun Apr 19 16:13:08 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: MIT flea Message-ID: <19980419211308.28852.qmail@hotmail.com> This is the first time I've been to an electronics flea market, so I don't know how it was, but I was disappointed. I came late, and about 1/2 the stuff was oscilloscopes, another 1/4 was Mac CPUs, and an 8th was PC network cards. Everything was priced at or above market value (almost). I will still go next time, though. There were a bunch of "IBM RT" units. These were enormous PS/2 like things. What were they? I could have gotten a Zenith XT laptop for $10, but I opted for a free Data General One being used as a wheelchock. It's in good condition, but the LCD is smashed. I think I will hang it on the wall. Does anyone have any ideas what I should do with the rest of the machine? Does anyone have replacement LCDs? PS. I would have gotten a shrinkwrapped copy of MacOS 6.0.7 and A/UX, but the guy changed his mind about selling it. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 19 16:28:35 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Apple drive for Diamond TrackStar Message-ID: <199804192128.AA23998@world.std.com> < I just got myself a Diamond TrackStar Apple//-in-a-PC board. What lit from "David Wollmann" at Apr 19, 98 11:28:21 am Message-ID: <199804192257.PAA27707@sqcisco.squeep.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1469 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980419/0b7ead0d/attachment.ksh From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Sun Apr 19 18:38:06 1998 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Very cool book find In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:51:11 PDT." Message-ID: <199804192338.SAA00165@mathcs.rhodes.edu.> In message , dastar@wco.com wri tes: > >Now this is maybe a book that's worth $153. > >Electronic Analog Computers (Second Edition, Hardcover) >Subtitle: D-c Analog Computers >Granino A. Korn, Ph.D. and Theresa M. Korn, M.S. >McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1956 (Original copyright 1952) > I've been jealous several times of the great HW finds reported here, but this is the first time I've been jealous of a book. I've got 4 volumes on analog computers (one strictly on mechanical machines), but I never managed to snarf a copy of Korn & Korn. You've got a real classic there. Brian L. Stuart From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Apr 19 20:14:53 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Strange 11/83 behaviour... Message-ID: <13349172544.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> This is bizarre... This RSX was origionally in an 11/73. I had it in an 11/83. BOO was running REAL slow. I interrupted it after a 5-hour run. I swapped the KDJ11-B with an 11-A, reloaded, and now BOO is running at a faster pace, it hits the drive every 10 seconds. I just now started it. Maybe there's a bug in RSX, or my 83 is acting bizarre? ------- From fauradon at pclink.com Sun Apr 19 21:57:05 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Week-end finds Message-ID: <002201bd6c08$01178a20$32010bce@fauradon> Hi, I found an Epson HC-41 today, it was aparently used for a machine tool programmer. Does anyone have a keyboard overlay that I could copy to replace the custom overlay that they have on this machine? Also i got the Floppy drive with it with instructions in Japanese. Can anyone give some info on it? I am also missing both power supplies (yes they work from the battery) what are the reqirements? As a general request, any info on that machine is welcome. I also got another Fairchild channel F brand new and apparently never used. And a Laser 128 with power supply and external disk drive. Oh and a copy of the Haddock. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Daniel A. Seagraves To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 8:18 PM Subject: Strange 11/83 behaviour... >This is bizarre... >This RSX was origionally in an 11/73. I had it in an 11/83. >BOO was running REAL slow. I interrupted it after a 5-hour run. >I swapped the KDJ11-B with an 11-A, reloaded, and now BOO >is running at a faster pace, it hits the drive every 10 seconds. >I just now started it. >Maybe there's a bug in RSX, or my 83 is acting bizarre? >------- > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Apr 19 22:12:55 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Oh, s**t. Someone tell me I'm wrong... Message-ID: <13349194032.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Just put this together. To talk to the RL02, I had to UNLoad the DY: driveer and LOAd teh DL: driver. This means that RL support isn't in the montior. Since I'm switching boot devices to one not in the monitor, I have to re-SYSGEN RSX-11M. But, I don't have Sysgen or HRC, so I'm screwed, right? That would be why BOO looped forever on both systems, the monitor was told to boot a device it had no support for. Does this sound correct? ------- From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Apr 19 23:01:02 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: How Old Is Object-Oriented Programming? In-Reply-To: <000901bd6b8a$957e8e80$5c6fbcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <199804200401.OAA13427@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 02:59 PM 19-04-98 +0300, Hotze wrote: >Well? Simula provided some of the things that are now considered OOP, so you can put 1967 down as a starting point. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfa keeps me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Apr 18 19:34:53 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: 5150 In-Reply-To: References: <199804180225.WAA04856@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 16, 98 09:24:36 pm Message-ID: <199804200536.BAA09666@smtp.interlog.com> On 18 Apr 98 at 23:07, Tony Duell wrote: > > In exploring the programs on the 5150's Hard-card I found two small programs > > from the same company (PLUS) that made the hardcard. One was light.com and the > > other sound.com parameters were light= on/ off , and sound = on / off . Since > > the h-c itself had no external connectors, I'm wondering whether these are for > > the cassette port. This 5150 was also configured for 2 serial and 2 parallel > > I'd guess that those programs were simply to provide some means of > knowing when the hardcard was being accessed. Possibly by either turning > on a graphics block in the corner of the screen or by making some kind of > sound through the PC's speaker. Have you tried them? > > > on the Herc. leaving one serial unaccounted for. The only other connector is > > the f 37 pin ext. on the fdd controller card. ( for an external drive ? ) QUE's > > It's for 2 external 360K (or 720K, unofficially) floppy drives. My XT has > 2 360K drives in the case and 2 720K ones externally. > > I can look up pinouts if you need them, but I seem to remember that all > you need to do is take a standard PC floppy cable (with the twist), > remove the controller connector and crimp on a DC37-P plug (IDC version). > Do that so that pins 1,2,20 are not used and so that the marked edge of > the cable goes to pin 21 (nearest the top of the machine when it's > plugged in). That's it. > > > Upgrading and Repairing P.C.'s v.5 (BTW an excellent book with the most > > extensive info on PS2 s I've seen -V.5 only) doesn't mention this port tho it > > has a lot of detail on the 5150 and adapter cards. > > I've looked at a lot of those books and come to the same conclusion. They > miss out so much information compared to the IBM manuals (like > schematics, ROM sources, etc) that they're a waste of money. I'll stick > to my 'mini purple wall' :-) > > > > > ciao larry > > -tony > I've been so busy lately that I haven't had time to check it out more. Like the mchns possibilities tho. Like most of my stuff my books come from thrift stores or garbage bins. Whenever I do get manuals they are treasured altho most of the tech writers should have been forced to take courses in basic communications before they were ever allowed to have anything printed. They're almost universily bad. Possibly the rare good ones become Sci-Fi writers :^) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From kroma at worldnet.att.net Mon Apr 20 06:39:46 1998 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Apple drive for Diamond TrackStar Message-ID: <003e01bd6c51$06023280$6286440c@kroma-i> > I just got myself a Diamond TrackStar Apple//-in-a-PC board. What little >info that I could find says that you can hook an Apple floppy drive to it. >However, in two places, the info says that it takes a standard Apple floppy, >and then it says a Unidrive. If you only have a Uni-Drive and you don't have the adapter, you can open it up, disconnect the current cable and plug in the old cable. That's what I did. The 19 pin cable plugs into a 20 adapter inside the drive. -- Kirk From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Apr 20 08:03:06 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: MIT flea Message-ID: <3d5efd18.353b478c@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-19 17:15:38 EDT, you write: << There were a bunch of "IBM RT" units. These were enormous PS/2 like things. What were they? >> model numbers were 6150 and 6151. i have the desktop form factor. basically it was a risc6000 ancestor. isa bus, but had proprietary adaptor cards with 16meg max. ran AIX and something else. mine powers up, but i do not have the special keyboard that's required to use it. i believe they announced in 1990 so not quite classic yet. i can probably dig up some info at work about them if someone REALLY wants me to. david From naamato at merit.edu Mon Apr 20 08:03:13 1998 From: naamato at merit.edu (Nick Amato) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: MIT flea In-Reply-To: <19980419211308.28852.qmail@hotmail.com>; from Max Eskin on Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 02:13:08PM -0700 References: <19980419211308.28852.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <19980420090313.50752@merit.edu> On Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 02:13:08PM -0700, Max Eskin wrote: > > There were a bunch of "IBM RT" units. These were enormous PS/2 like > things. What were they? > RTs are EAPC RISC (6.0 MHz) based machines that have 68881 FPUs. Their greatest moment was when they were used as nodal switching stations on the NSFnet backbone. They run either AIX or AOS (the latter is 4.3 BSD and comparatively rare). Usually you find them with around 12 MB RAM, a 70 MB ESDI disk and controller, either a token-ring card or an Ungermann-Bass ethernet card. And, a display adaptor, if you're lucky. :) IMHO, not worth picking up unless free. They are very common, extremely heavy for their size, and either OS has serious problems. There is a FAQ still around (comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt). Nick From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 20 09:28:01 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Test Equip FS References: <3539970F.220A3AAC@bbtel.com> <354495ab.367777115@hoser> Message-ID: <353B5B70.391AC805@bbtel.com> Bill Richman wrote: > Were you going to provide some scanned pictures of these units? There's now a page for the items I have for sale at http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/fleamarket.html with pics and descriptions. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 20 08:46:30 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Oh, s**t. Someone tell me I'm wrong... In-Reply-To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" "Oh, s**t. Someone tell me I'm wrong..." (Apr 19, 20:12) References: <13349194032.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <9804201446.ZM13202@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 19, 20:12, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Subject: Oh, s**t. Someone tell me I'm wrong... OK :-) You're wrong :-) > To talk to the RL02, I had to UNLoad the DY: driveer and LOAd teh DL: driver. > This means that RL support isn't in the montior. Not exactly, it may just mean that the driver isn't loaded by default. None of the drivers are "in" the monitor, they're all loaded (some with the system image, some not). > Since I'm switching boot > devices to one not in the monitor, I have to re-SYSGEN RSX-11M. > But, I don't have Sysgen or HRC, so I'm screwed, right? Not necessarily. SYSGEN recreates the whole system from the source code. All you need to do (assuming the original was built with suitable options) is to get it to reset its pointers, in a manner of speaking. You won't have HRC unless it's an RSX11M-plus system. > That would be why BOO looped forever on both systems, the monitor was told to > boot a device it had no support for. > Does this sound correct? I don't think so. I'm not an expert on RSX, but I've done 4 or 5 sysgens -- though it was a few years ago. The drivers were probably all built at the same time -- and therefore with the same options -- as the rest of the system. Take a look at the dates/times on the xxDRV.TSK and RSX11M.TSK files in [1,54] to be sure. The RSX11M.SYS file should be much bigger, and have a later time, than the RSX11M.TSK file. What you're probably seeing, is that the system was built with a certain amount of space allocated for drivers, but only the ones originally required are loaded with the system image by default, and to get space for another, you need to unload one. As for the BOOt problem, I'd guess you copied the files using PIP instead of BRU. Is that right? If so, many of the files won't be in the same places on the disk. That will confuse RSX, which has the disk addresses of some essential things in the RSX11M.SYS file. (At least, I think it's that file, it's been a while...) Also, PIP has possibly not copied the correct file size -- by default, it discards unused blocks, ISTR. That will kill RSX11M.SYS, which has extra blocks for the swap space. The other thing PIP won't do (by default, unless you use the /CO switch) is to ensure that copies are contiguous, though if you copied onto an empty disk, that probably won't be a problem. You can tell if a file is contiguous (all the blocks together, in sequence) by looking to see if there's a letter 'C' just before the date in a long directory listing; .TSK and .SYS files have to be contiguous. If you copy with BRU, it takes care of those things, and possibly leaves the system in such a state that the next *software* boot will sort things out. There are certain permutations of disk drivers that share boot blocks, which saves you some of the effort of re-generating the boot setup, but I can't remember if DU and DL are in that group. [digs out notes] If you use PIP, you'll need to recreate the RSX11M.SYS image on the new drive, while still running the system from the old one: ASN DL0:=SY: ASN DL0:=LB: SET /UIC=[1,54] PIP RSX11M.sys/NV/CO/BL:=RSX11M.TSK where is usually (memory size x 4) + 2. If you express that as a decimal number, you have to enter it with a decimal point after the digits otherwise PIP will think you mean octal. That's for a mapped system; change [1,54] to [1,50] for unmapped. Then you'll need to re-VMR the system, you can specify what drivers are to be LOAded at boot time, what memory it has, etc. There's possibly a file called SYSVMR.CMD or similar, which already has a string of commands in it to load drivers; edit that to suit. After you've run VMR @SYSVMR you need to software boot the new system and SAVe it (you may need to type "G" at the prompt, and you need to SAV /WB to make it hardware bootable). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 20 09:51:27 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Lobo Max 80 cross post Message-ID: <353B60EF.5A3A55C@bbtel.com> I'm cross posting this here as I know someone here knows what this guy needs and can do a direct email to him about his problem. There may not be anyone that knows what he needs and he might be tempted to "throw out" the equipment if he doesn't get a response. -------------------------------------------------------------- Rich Gough Seattle, WA USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 02:21:27 I have a bunch of 8" diskettes, CP/M format over 10 years old. Were made on a Lobo Max-80, now in my mom's basement. Replaced clock battery, still couldn't get it to boot last year when I tried to start it for the first time in years. Anyone know of a place in Pittsburgh, PA that can copy 8" diskettes onto 3.5"? Thanks, will be going there in a couple of weeks. Rich -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Apr 20 08:51:40 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Oh, s**t. Someone tell me I'm wrong... In-Reply-To: <9804201446.ZM13202@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <13349310312.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Copy with BRU and it...] How do I do that? BRU is here, but when I tried to get it to go, it said PROTECTION VIOLATION. ------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Apr 20 10:08:47 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Strange 11/83 behaviour... In-Reply-To: <13349172544.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 19, 98 06:14:53 pm Message-ID: <9804201408.AA32282@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 714 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980420/0ff7d555/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 09:09:11 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Week-end finds Message-ID: <19980420140911.17170.qmail@hotmail.com> Two questions: a) what is a channel F? b) What is the ISBN# for the haddock book? >I also got another Fairchild channel F brand new and apparently never used. >And a Laser 128 with power supply and external disk drive. Oh and a copy of >the Haddock. >Francois >------------------------------------------------------------- >Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon >-----Original Message----- >From: Daniel A. Seagraves >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 8:18 PM >Subject: Strange 11/83 behaviour... > > >>This is bizarre... >>This RSX was origionally in an 11/73. I had it in an 11/83. >>BOO was running REAL slow. I interrupted it after a 5-hour run. >>I swapped the KDJ11-B with an 11-A, reloaded, and now BOO >>is running at a faster pace, it hits the drive every 10 seconds. >>I just now started it. >>Maybe there's a bug in RSX, or my 83 is acting bizarre? >>------- >> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 20 09:49:59 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980420094959.00c22c20@pc> I'd love to write a program to "OCR" punched card images. Now, if I only had some spare time. :-) Scanners are cheap and ubiquitous. You could lay several cards on the scanner at once, perhaps placing a specially-colored paper on the normally white reflective lid, and presto - like chroma-key on video, you can easily "see" the borders, index notch and holes. I wonder if any of today's "paper port" auto-feeding cheapo scanners would handle a punched card - I don't see why not. It could save the card data in Jone's proposed file format. One advantage of this system would be that it could handle aged cards that some physical imperfection (like dents from rubber bands, folds, worn edges, etc.) that might jam a card reader. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From maynard at jmg.com Mon Apr 20 10:31:35 1998 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: MIT flea In-Reply-To: <19980419211308.28852.qmail@hotmail.com> (maxeskin@hotmail.com) References: <19980419211308.28852.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199804201531.LAA08338@mr-gateway.internal.net> Did you notice the numnut selling those SGI IRIS's for $400? He also had an 11/23 he wanted to sell for $100 and _wouldn't_ budge. He told me they were 'classic' computers and could fetch even more in the collector market... JEESH! There were some pretty good deals on scopes, so I'm not complaining about the abundance of test hardware. Several Apple II's... I walked away with an original Atari joystick for $1, a set of Atari 800 programming manuals for $5, and a coco2 with drives for $2... those are the kind of deals I'm looking for. ;-) --jmg PS - I would have paid up to ~$20 for the 11/23, but $100????? > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:13:08 PDT > From: "Max Eskin" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: MIT flea > > This is the first time I've been to an electronics flea market, so I > don't know how it was, but I was disappointed. I came late, and about > 1/2 the stuff was oscilloscopes, another 1/4 was Mac CPUs, and an > 8th was PC network cards. Everything was priced at or above market > value (almost). I will still go next time, though. > > There were a bunch of "IBM RT" units. These were enormous PS/2 like > things. What were they? > > I could have gotten a Zenith XT laptop for $10, but I opted for a > free Data General One being used as a wheelchock. It's in good > condition, but the LCD is smashed. I think I will hang it on the wall. > Does anyone have any ideas what I should do with the rest of the > machine? Does anyone have replacement LCDs? > PS. I would have gotten a shrinkwrapped copy of MacOS 6.0.7 and A/UX, > but the guy changed his mind about selling it. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From mor at crl.com Mon Apr 20 09:52:17 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: Week-end finds References: <19980420140911.17170.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <353B6121.6E06A153@crl.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > Two questions: a) what is a channel F? It's a video game console. Older than the Atari 2600, I think it was the first programmable home system introduced. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 20 11:13:58 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:26 2005 Subject: MIT flea Message-ID: <199804201613.AA12850@world.std.com> This is the case for the april early birds from what I saw last year. As the season progresses (MIT is every month) the mix changes. < He also had an 11/23 he wanted to sell for $100 and _wouldn't_ < budge. He told me they were 'classic' computers and could If it were an 11/20 or 11/05 it's collectable. Numb is correct. 11/23s are common as house flies and though they are very classic and somewhat desireable for pdp-11 hackers he's out of his mind. Last year there was someone there doing same and I ended up taking it home for free as he couldn't bring it back. Now consider this he was offering an 11/23 complete with RX02 and 2meg memory, plenty of serial IO and TWO complete copies of RT-11v5, two sets of diagnostics disks and two RT11 doc sets. If he parted it out and sold it to one of the used DEC resellers he might get 100$ for the peices total. Message-ID: <13349338620.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [What version...] It was 4.3. A butchered 4.3, a lot of the utility programs are missing. It has graphics-workstation software from Genigraphics on it. ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Apr 20 11:29:04 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Strange 11/83 behaviour... In-Reply-To: <9804201408.AA32282@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <13349338965.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> {Booting?] Oops, forgot that. I'm straight-booting it from some RD device. But I had to swap my RQDX3 for a spare RQDX1 to get the drive to work. When I get done putting it on the RL02, I'm going to retire the RD (It's making bearing-going noises) and use RT-11 to make a diskimage of the RL02. Then I can play with RSX-11M under the emulator. ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 12:29:55 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Data General One Message-ID: <19980420172955.15092.qmail@hotmail.com> I got a Data General One laptop that someone was using as a wheel- chock at a flea market. It has a smashed LCD, and won't start. Now, a)Does anyone have an extra LCD that would work? b)What type of power does it use? c)Does anyone want any parts? It's in good physical condition. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Apr 20 13:40:13 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: MIT flea In-Reply-To: <199804201613.AA12850@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 20, 98 12:13:58 pm Message-ID: <199804201840.OAA21561@shell.monmouth.com> > > > This is the case for the april early birds from what I saw last year. > As the season progresses (MIT is every month) the mix changes. > > < He also had an 11/23 he wanted to sell for $100 and _wouldn't_ > < budge. He told me they were 'classic' computers and could > > If it were an 11/20 or 11/05 it's collectable. > > Numb is correct. 11/23s are common as house flies and though they are very > classic and somewhat desireable for pdp-11 hackers he's out of his mind. > Last year there was someone there doing same and I ended up taking it home > for free as he couldn't bring it back. Now consider this he was offering > an 11/23 complete with RX02 and 2meg memory, plenty of serial IO and TWO > complete copies of RT-11v5, two sets of diagnostics disks and two RT11 > doc sets. > > If he parted it out and sold it to one of the used DEC resellers he might > get 100$ for the peices total. > > > thats about right IF it's at least a complete CPU/mem/io/disk! With some > software and known operating $50 may not be out of line. more than that > it better be pristine, FULL COMPLETE DOCS and actually running. > > > Allison > Boy I'd pay $100 for a working PDP11/23 with RL02's (at least one working and bootable). Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Apr 20 13:43:01 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: MIT flea In-Reply-To: <199804201840.OAA21561@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <13349363350.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [I'd pay $100...] Have you got the RL02? I have the 11/23... I'd gladly ship it to NJ for $100, and then tell you how to set it up... Oh, you'll need the RL02 cables too. ------- From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 20 14:10:45 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Data General One In-Reply-To: <19980420172955.15092.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Apr 20, 98 10:29:55 am Message-ID: <199804201910.PAA10780@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Max Eskin once stated: > > I got a Data General One laptop that someone was using as a wheel- > chock at a flea market. It has a smashed LCD, and won't start. > Now, > a)Does anyone have an extra LCD that would work? Sorry, don't have a spare LCD, and I'm currently using mine (in fact, I used the Data General yesturday). > b)What type of power does it use? I'll have to go home and check. > c)Does anyone want any parts? It's in good physical condition. does it have the built in modem? That's the only option I don't have for mine. Also, if you could gently remove the disk drive buttons and send them my way, I'd be appriciative. Mine broke off. -spc (You might want to call Data General and see if they have replacement LCD screens, or at least where you might get some) From lisard at zetnet.co.uk Mon Apr 20 14:21:51 1998 From: lisard at zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: How Old Is Object-Oriented Programming? Message-ID: <199804201921.UAA31118@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> On 1998-04-19 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet.co.uk :Well? 31 this year. From archive at NAVIX.net Mon Apr 20 14:57:10 1998 From: archive at NAVIX.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Data General One References: <19980420172955.15092.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <353BA895.F9F48D3A@navix.net> Max: I'd certainly take some spare parts from your DG/1. I also am looking for power supply information. So if you or anyone else knows, *please* let me know as well. Thanks, CORD COSLOR Max Eskin wrote: > I got a Data General One laptop that someone was using as a wheel- > chock at a flea market. It has a smashed LCD, and won't start. > Now, > a)Does anyone have an extra LCD that would work? > b)What type of power does it use? > c)Does anyone want any parts? It's in good physical condition. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- _____________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |-----------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |-----------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |_____________________________________________________| | \______________________________________________________\| From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 14:38:01 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Data General One Message-ID: <19980420193801.16399.qmail@hotmail.com> If the modem is the thing w/ 5 pin DIN socket, I have one. What is Data General's number? > does it have the built in modem? That's the only option I don't have for >mine. Also, if you could gently remove the disk drive buttons and send them >my way, I'd be appriciative. Mine broke off. > > -spc (You might want to call Data General and see if they have replacement > LCD screens, or at least where you might get some) > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 20 14:32:59 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Data General One In-Reply-To: <19980420193801.16399.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Apr 20, 98 12:38:01 pm Message-ID: <199804201933.PAA10826@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Max Eskin once stated: > > If the modem is the thing w/ 5 pin DIN socket, I have one. I believe that would be it, but as I don't have one, I can't be sure. It should, however, be in the upper left corner, if looking straight at the back of the machine with the back cover slid down. > What is Data General's number? I don't have that handy and it'll have to wait until I get home. The number I do have is a few years old (it was about '93 or '94 when I called them for a replacement LCD cable). -spc (I'll also check up on the power supply when I get home) From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Apr 20 14:46:15 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: MIT flea In-Reply-To: <13349363350.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 20, 98 11:43:01 am Message-ID: <199804201946.PAA25128@shell.monmouth.com> > > [I'd pay $100...] > > Have you got the RL02? I have the 11/23... > I'd gladly ship it to NJ for $100, and then tell you how to set it up... I know how to set it up (5 years DEC Field Service on 8's, 11's and Vax systems.) > > Oh, you'll need the RL02 cables too. Yeah, the problem is I don't have the drives or disk controllers. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 20 13:03:04 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: MIT flea In-Reply-To: <199804201613.AA12850@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 20, 98 12:13:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 658 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980420/28f39c5b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 20 13:28:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: 5150 In-Reply-To: <199804200536.BAA09666@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Apr 19, 98 00:34:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 993 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980420/2e4263ec/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Apr 20 15:14:11 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: MIT flea In-Reply-To: <199804201946.PAA25128@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <13349379946.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Don't have drives or controller] Just find the drive, I have a RLV11. I can't let you have my RL02 *DRIVE* though, I use it for Unix. If you hunt down the drive, remember that I have the 23. I have one disassembled I could easily toss together. ------- From mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu Mon Apr 20 15:35:24 1998 From: mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: MIT flea In-Reply-To: <13349379946.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>; from Daniel A. Seagraves on Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 01:14:11PM -0700 References: <199804201946.PAA25128@shell.monmouth.com> <13349379946.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <19980420153524.65389@zeke.as.utexas.edu> I remember back in '98 when Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [Don't have drives or controller] > > Just find the drive, I have a RLV11. > I can't let you have my RL02 *DRIVE* though, I use it for Unix. > > If you hunt down the drive, remember that I have the 23. > I have one disassembled I could easily toss together. Anyone in the Austin area might consider checking out the stairwell of Mezes Hall at the University of Texas. (the west entrance to the building--ground floor). As of last semester there was an RL02 just sitting by its lonesome in a corner. It looked as if it had been there for at least a year or two so I don't think it's going anywhere. m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@zen.as.utexas.edu -- atwork?astronomy:cs http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler -- (512)471-7450 Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From erd at infinet.com Mon Apr 20 15:46:49 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980420094959.00c22c20@pc> from "John Foust" at Apr 20, 98 09:49:59 am Message-ID: <199804202046.QAA17962@user2.infinet.com> > > I'd love to write a program to "OCR" punched card images. Now, if > I only had some spare time. :-) Ain't that the truth. > Scanners are cheap and ubiquitous. You could lay several cards on the > scanner at once, perhaps placing a specially-colored paper on the > normally white reflective lid, and presto - like chroma-key on video, > you can easily "see" the borders, index notch and holes. I wonder if > any of today's "paper port" auto-feeding cheapo scanners would handle > a punched card - I don't see why not. I've got a Brother el-cheapo parallel port scanner that was able to scan punch cards after I put the card (singular) in the torn paper sleeve, in front of a piece of purple construction paper (I was going for contrast and it was the darkest I had). The scans at 400 dpi look great. I shrunk them 4:1 in Photoshop and saved them as GIFs. My thought was to use the GIF library by Tom Boutell to slurp in a GIF, run a high-frequency (edge detect) on them, guess the dpi based on height and width, look for the notched corner (or be told the orientation by the user) and pixel-column by pixel column, look for holes or the absence thereof. > It could save the card data in Jone's proposed file format. One advantage > of this system would be that it could handle aged cards that some physical > imperfection (like dents from rubber bands, folds, worn edges, etc.) that > might jam a card reader. I hadn't thought of the benefits to damaged cards, but I agree on using Doug Jones' format (which I just discovered, thanks to this thread). The one drawback I've seen is speed. It's a pain in the butt to stick a card in a scanner, scan the card, save the image, etc., etc. I can't see reading much more than a couple of cards per minute. With a modified scanner (to back up the scan area with black, not white), or with suitably modified cards - say by xeroxing cards on a xerox machine with a black background and scanning the xeroxes, it could be made to go faster. Even a digital camera would probably be faster than a scanner. With that speed, it's more efficient to take a block of lumber, dado out a channel, drill 12 holes and wire up a dozen phototransistors into a parallel port. Maybe a Basic Stamp could drive it? That way, any machine, parallel equipped or not, could read the cards over a serial port. The BS might even be trainable to output the file in D.J. format. One issue I haven't gotten around is how rigidly oriented the cards have to be. The technique I've been mulling around will work, providing that the pixels of one card column don't overlap the pixels of another card column in the same pixel column. I'm trying to do this in a portable manner, in C, with code that is completely insensitive to OS and windowing scheme. Right now, I'm scanning cards with Win95 (because of the PP scanner) and will be interpreting them on a Linux box (because it's nicer to program). Anyone who suggests VisualBasic will be forced to stuff the chad back into a case of lace cards. ;-) -ethan From archive at navix.net Mon Apr 20 16:50:57 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Data General One References: <199804201910.PAA10780@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <353BC340.CEB7B817@navix.net> Captain Napalm wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Max Eskin once stated: > > > > I got a Data General One laptop that someone was using as a wheel- > > chock at a flea market. It has a smashed LCD, and won't start. > > Now, > > a)Does anyone have an extra LCD that would work? > > Sorry, don't have a spare LCD, and I'm currently using mine (in fact, I > used the Data General yesturday). > > > b)What type of power does it use? > > I'll have to go home and check. > > > c)Does anyone want any parts? It's in good physical condition. > > does it have the built in modem? That's the only option I don't have for > mine. Also, if you could gently remove the disk drive buttons and send them > my way, I'd be appriciative. Mine broke off. Man, everyone I've seen has those disk drive buttons broken off!! The one I currently have has both buttons, but I've had to glue the little prongs back onto the main button. A reall pain....! CORD > > > -spc (You might want to call Data General and see if they have replacement > LCD screens, or at least where you might get some) -- _____________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |-----------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |-----------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |_____________________________________________________| | \______________________________________________________\| From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 20 11:11:07 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Oh, s**t. Someone tell me I'm wrong... In-Reply-To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" "Re: Oh, s**t. Someone tell me I'm wrong..." (Apr 20, 6:51) References: <13349310312.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <9804201711.ZM17230@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 20, 6:51, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > [Copy with BRU and it...] > > How do I do that? BRU is here, but when I tried to get it to go, > it said PROTECTION VIOLATION. I think that means you're trying to do something to a disk that is mounted when it shouldn't be, or you've not given the right switch, or given one that's inappropriate. If I'm right, I think you want to be copying from a mounted running DUx: to an unmounted but loaded DL0:, which BRU will want to re-initialise. If so, the command is something like BRU DU0:/MOU DL0:/INI, or safer would be to run BRU and enter the disk names and switches at the prompts. Sorry about all the "if"s but I did warn you I'm not an RSX expert :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:02:34 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: 5150 Message-ID: <19980420210234.19236.qmail@hotmail.com> I don't have much room, but thankfully, manuals are pretty rare. But I think I wouldn't be able to tolerate having hundreds of manuals for incredible machinery and never even seeing the machine. >I grab any/all manuals (and data books, general computing books) that are >being thrown out, of course. I also buy just about any I see in >second-hand bookshops. > >But I also buy a lot new. The IBM Techrefs, for example. I've probably >spent more on manuals than on hardware over the years. Having complete >and accurate documentation is very important. > The boston public library probably has more books on writing computer manuals than any other single thing about computers. > >Hmm.. I'd rather have a schematic and a ROM listing with a brief >description, however badly written to a lot of English prose that tells >me nothing. Alas a lot of manuals and books are in the latter category. > > >> Possibly the rare good ones become Sci-Fi writers :^) So that's why the stories never make sense and have tiny chapters :) >> ciao larry >> lwalker@interlog.com >> > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 16:06:33 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Addition Message-ID: <19980420210633.12088.qmail@hotmail.com> Could someone tell me what the configuration of individual gates is (one of them, at least) for binary addition (or provide an EASY TO FIND reference)? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Mon Apr 20 16:11:32 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: PS/2 SCSI question In-Reply-To: <353A42E9.CCDF983A@bbtel.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980419104616.007ca4f0@wingate> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980420161132.007bc260@wingate> At 01:31 PM 4/19/98 -0500, you wrote: >David Wollmann wrote: > >> That's a Centronics Micro. I have a Asus SC875 (NCR) host adapter that uses >> the same connector (great adapter for Linux, BTW.) I got my cable (Cent. >> Micro to Cent. Std.) from Datalink, right here in Tulsa. They recently >> moved and I don't have the new #, just dial (918) 555-1212 for Tulsa >> directory assistance. We've used these guys for years--they do a lot of >> "custom" cables, including the IBM PCjr keyboard and serial adapter cables. >> If you can describe the connectors, cable and pinouts, they can build it >> for you. > >I'll check with them. Do you know what SCSI level the Cent/micro is compatible with? I >assume by the 60 pins that it's SCSI 1 with a few excess pins. I'm not sure but since >you mention it that the Sun cards I had used the same type. It may have used the normal >50 pin HPHD type. They are about the same size. > I was full of it--my fuzzy memory tells me the card with the tiny Centronics is an Adaptec SCSI-2 Fast. Next time I make my way upstairs I'll take a look for sure. > Russ Blakeman > RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 > Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 > Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com > Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ > ICQ UIN #1714857 > AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" > * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrice at texoma.net Mon Apr 20 16:35:35 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Data General One References: <19980420172955.15092.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <353BBFA7.1C67E607@texoma.net> I'd like the hard drive if it still works. James L. Rice Max Eskin wrote: > > I got a Data General One laptop that someone was using as a wheel- > chock at a flea market. It has a smashed LCD, and won't start. > Now, > a)Does anyone have an extra LCD that would work? > b)What type of power does it use? > c)Does anyone want any parts? It's in good physical condition. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 20 17:05:10 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: MIT flea Message-ID: <199804202205.AA07396@world.std.com> There's an interesting one. I only have two floppy drives. Where would the hard drive go? There's an extra ribbon plug on the MB, same as for the display and keyboard, what's that for? > >I'd like the hard drive if it still works. > >James L. Rice > >Max Eskin wrote: >> >> I got a Data General One laptop that someone was using as a wheel- >> chock at a flea market. It has a smashed LCD, and won't start. >> Now, >> a)Does anyone have an extra LCD that would work? >> b)What type of power does it use? >> c)Does anyone want any parts? It's in good physical condition. >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From aaron at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 20 18:28:22 1998 From: aaron at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: IBM Printer In-Reply-To: <199804202205.AA07396@world.std.com> Message-ID: Does anyone want to give a nice home to an IBM compact printer for the cost of shipping? The little one, with the rolls of paper, free to a good home.... From archive at navix.net Mon Apr 20 19:22:55 1998 From: archive at navix.net (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: IBM Printer References: Message-ID: <353BE6DE.132ED174@navix.net> I'm interested!! CORD Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Does anyone want to give a nice home to an IBM compact printer for the > cost of shipping? The little one, with the rolls of paper, free to a good > home.... -- _____________________________________________________ | Cord G. Coslor : archive@navix.net |\ | Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue@navix.net | | |-----------------------------------------------------| | | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | | |-----------------------------------------------------| | | PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | | |_____________________________________________________| | \______________________________________________________\| From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 19:30:17 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Neural nets (OT) Message-ID: <19980421003017.14879.qmail@hotmail.com> I made a small neural net, non-learning, in Visual Basic (hey! it's easy!), available at alt.ne.mediaone.net/zeus334/neural.zip. Also, there was just a short segment on TLC on truck collecting. Very interesting. Maybe I'll collect old trucks AND old computers! This was talking about a new englander who collected big trucks. His favorite was a chain drive 1932 german truck... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 20 20:04:05 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Neural nets (OT) References: <19980421003017.14879.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <353BF085.8404F5CB@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > I made a small neural net, non-learning, in Visual Basic (hey! it's > easy!), available at alt.ne.mediaone.net/zeus334/neural.zip. > > Also, there was just a short segment on TLC on truck collecting. > Very interesting. Maybe I'll collect old trucks AND old computers! > This was talking about a new englander who collected big trucks. > His favorite was a chain drive 1932 german truck... Nothing wrong with collecting old trucks. They come in handy for transporting old computers. Just remember that there's a _large_ multiplier as to when things go classic -- my wife's 1985 BMW has a _long_ way to go but my (newer) Tandy Color Computer 3s are already there. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Apr 20 20:18:11 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: MIT Flea vs Trenton Fair this weekend Message-ID: <199804210118.VAA07567@shell.monmouth.com> > > > < > > get out a scrounge around. 11/23s are common as house flies. you should > be able to find one for free that is usable. The common problem is you > can find just the cpu box (cpu, ram, IO, maybe disk controller) but no > drives. Up there maybe... down here in NJ they're rare. Sun boxes are around (Sparc), I even saw DECstations, RS6000's but no good looking Vaxes or 11's. I think the area scrapped most of 'em 4 years ago. At this weekend's Trenton Fair (which used to have 8's, 11's and Vaxes -- nothing below a Microvax chassis...). And this was a big DEC area until the late 80's. I worked it for years. > > The thing is with RX02s for $100 is possible, with RL02s no way. RL02 > drives used go for more than that alone. I'm looking for a RL02 drive > myself as I only have one, they are scarce and expensive. > > SCSI boards and eithernet cards same thing, expensive. CPU boards, maybe > $20-40. > > The problem is most cards compatable with an 11/23 are also compatable > with most of the qbus VAX systems other than memory(usable but far too > slow and limiting in other ways.). > > Allison > I turned down an 11/34 with RL02 for $25.00 four years ago because the OS's weren't easy to come by and the boxes were larger than I could transport in my compact car (at the time I didn't have my good old DECwagon available). Ah @!#$%^&. I could sure use it now. This seemed to be the year of the $10 MacII at the show. I picked up some Mac stuff for fun... but I'd love to populate my VT103 out. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Apr 20 20:34:38 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Spotted Adam computer for sale Message-ID: <3547f789.523903403@hoser> No connection to this person whatsoever. Thought this might be of interest to some. > >I have an Adam computer that I want to sell. It is in perfect working >condition. All the original equipment including the box is intact. >Serious offers can find me at > >mtruman@usa.net > >Mike > > >-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- >http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 20 20:42:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <199804202046.QAA17962@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 20, 98 04:46:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1066 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/53ab104a/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 20 21:13:26 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: "Max Eskin" "Addition" (Apr 20, 14:06) References: <19980420210633.12088.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <9804210313.ZM1264@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 20, 14:06, Max Eskin wrote: > Could someone tell me what the configuration of individual gates > is (one of them, at least) for binary addition (or provide an EASY > TO FIND reference)? This sounds like a homework question... Well, I suppose all classic computers have adders in them. You want to look up "half-adder" and "full-adder". A half-adder adds two binary digits, to produce a sum output and a carry output. A full adder is, not surprisingly, two half adders, wired so that it also has a carry-in. You can make a half-adder from an XOR gate and an AND gate, though that's not exactly how they're usually implemented. How to make a multi-bit adder with look-ahead carry is left as an exercise for the reader :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From DiesIrrae at aol.com Mon Apr 20 21:14:23 1998 From: DiesIrrae at aol.com (Dies Irrae) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Spotted Adam computer for sale Message-ID: <6412201a.353c0100@aol.com> I recently got an Adam system at a thrift store for $3. No cords or software but I figured, 'Hell, for three bucks? It's mine!' -Enrique! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 20 20:50:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: 5150 In-Reply-To: <19980420210234.19236.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Apr 20, 98 02:02:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 844 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/f89e84dd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 20 20:56:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: <19980420210633.12088.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Apr 20, 98 02:06:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1030 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/6647e9a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 20 20:58:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: IBM Printer In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Apr 20, 98 04:28:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/cc02cbcb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 20 21:28:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: <9804210313.ZM1264@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 21, 98 02:13:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/747eb84d/attachment.ksh From circuitsurgeon at fwi.com Mon Apr 20 21:40:48 1998 From: circuitsurgeon at fwi.com (Gil Jasmin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <353C0730.30DA@fwi.com> remove From circuitsurgeon at fwi.com Mon Apr 20 21:54:27 1998 From: circuitsurgeon at fwi.com (Gil Jasmin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: (no subject) References: <353C0730.30DA@fwi.com> Message-ID: <353C0A63.1EB6@fwi.com> remove I need removed from this list, how do I do it?? From erd at infinet.com Mon Apr 20 22:15:04 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 21, 98 02:42:16 am Message-ID: <199804210315.XAA22434@user2.infinet.com> > Punched cards have one major design bug IMHO that's not shared by paper > tape. There's no 'column reference' on a card. On a tape, you can strobe > off the sprocket track, but alas on a card a totally unpunched column is > valid (=a space character). True. If you write the program to keep careful time (and reject cards with fewer than 80 chars), it _might_work. There is, of course, a brute-force approach - 960 phototransistors. Additionally, one could build a 4 dpi scanner (12 pixels and a stepper motor). With the steppper from a 5.25" drive and either a mechanical amplifier (lever) to pull the 7" stroke or either a) multiple 12-bit sensors or b) one 80-bit sensor w/3" stroke, it wouldn't be that hard to make, not that I have the time to make a contraption of that complexity. > My Documation M200 uses the leading edge of the card as a reference. It > then counts pulses from a toothed wheel/pickup head on the card roller > shaft to deteremine where the columns should be. So gut a mouse and stick a wheel in the wood block... > It's therefore almost impossible to make a hand-pulled card reader. Not with the reading accuracy of a mechanized reader, no. > If you can solve the timing problem, it's probably easier/quicker to > program the microcontroller in assembly language. PIC assembler takes > about a day to learn... I'm not worried about learning PIC assembler, it's a lack of a PIC programmer and a portability issue... any boob that would have a deck of cards to read should be able to put together a Stamp-based reader. I wouldn't expect a straight-PIC reader to be as trivial for a non- hardware hacker to assemble. Easier than hacking a PIC board would be to build a C-64 based card reader... there's plenty of I/O bits if you bogart the keyboard lines. -ethan From erd at infinet.com Mon Apr 20 22:17:07 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 21, 98 02:42:16 am Message-ID: <199804210317.XAA22519@user2.infinet.com> Regarding OCRing punch cards, I forgot to mention that I'm scanning the back side to eliminate registation marks and other scribbles from interfering with a rock-stupid program attempting to locate the holes. -ethan From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Apr 21 00:04:00 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: PS/2 SCSI question References: <3.0.5.32.19980419104616.007ca4f0@wingate> <3.0.5.32.19980420161132.007bc260@wingate> Message-ID: <353C28C0.CA3E9907@bbtel.com> David Wollmann wrote: > At 01:31 PM 4/19/98 -0500, you wrote: > >David Wollmann wrote: > > > >> That's a Centronics Micro. I have a Asus SC875 (NCR) host adapter that uses > >> the same connector (great adapter for Linux, BTW.) I got my cable (Cent. > I was full of it--my fuzzy memory tells me the card with the tiny > Centronics is an Adaptec SCSI-2 Fast. Next time I make my way upstairs I'll > take a look for sure. No you were right. It's equivelant to an RS-6000 connection. I found the references on a few sites. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 20 23:34:30 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <199804210434.AA25893@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980420215554.0089a890@agora.rdrop.com> At 12:34 AM 4/21/98 -0400, Allison wrote: > >Ah gads you guys do it the hard way. Take a stepper from something and >put a roller on it with a diameter such that one step will move the card >forward one column. Then all you need is one rows worth of >phototransistors. I forget the punched card orgainization but a parallel >port (printer) off a PC should be enough bits. >Oh the only difference with hole vs mark sense is transmittance or >reflective sensing. Ummm... I may wish to debate that just a tad... Its been a rare mark sense card that I've seen to stuff 80 colums of data in a 'standard' tab card form factor. Usually more like 36-40 to allow for the timing marks and the nominally sloppy filling in of the infamous 'bubbles'. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rexstout at uswest.net Tue Apr 21 00:25:22 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: 1702 EPROMs Message-ID: Wasn't there someone on here a while ago looking for 1702's? Whoever that was, you might want to try Jameco(http://www.jameco.com), the catalog I have shows them at $1.95 each, but I don't know how many they have left, if any... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 21 02:09:45 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Data General One In-Reply-To: <19980420172955.15092.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > I got a Data General One laptop that someone was using as a wheel- > chock at a flea market. It has a smashed LCD, and won't start. > Now, > a)Does anyone have an extra LCD that would work? > b)What type of power does it use? There are two adapters for it, one that recharges the battery, and one that powers the machine directly. My battery charger is dead and unlabeled wrt voltage, etc. The A/C adapter has two different outputs: one at 2A and one at 3A, both at 6.4V. I assume the higher amperage is needed if you have the optional printer. Viewing from the back, the right most terminal is negative. > c)Does anyone want any parts? It's in good physical condition. Sure, I'll trade you a dirty Symbol LS-8500 laser scan gun for it. Guaranteed to make you go blind if you stare at the laser long enough ;-) -- Doug From pjoules at enterprise.net Tue Apr 21 04:04:17 1998 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Help - Sun 2 won't boot Message-ID: I have just got a Sun 2 clone workststion (Sun boards in an unbranded box) and it won't boot. If any one can decode the 'heartbeat' LEDs here is the code. Looking down at the edge of the CPU board: =============[Empty connector]=========[oxxx ooox]==================== where x is LED off and o is LED on. I would like to mend this myself if possible. If it is going to require component level diagnosis and repair then please bear in mind that I haven't used a soldering iron or meter in anger since I was mending televisions at school - when they all had 405 lines on the screen and valves. Regards Pete From groberts at mitre.org Tue Apr 21 05:56:59 1998 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bd6d14$359e9240$6d711d80@groberts.mitre.org> you're correct tony. in the assembly listing of KEX that I posted earlier I did the assembly using my old Heath H8 and the HDOS assembler. The H8 front panel monitor used an octal keypad & display, and the octal thinking carried over to the assembler package. Heath also used "split octal" in the fashion you describe, so that 0110100110101111B (binary) 69af (hex) 64657Q (octal) 151257A (split octal) are all equivalent. if you've never seen it before you'd swear this is a dumb idea, but it grows on you! - glenn > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 2:59 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: 8080 Trainer - more info > > > > > > Yes it is in octal. If you noticed the keypad has numbers from > 0 to 7 so the > > whole system works in base 8. > > I'd realised the keypad working in Octal... > > What I was commenting on was the following. > > Consider this 16 bit number > > 0110100110101111 > > Now, that's 69AF hex (I hope), or 064657 octal. > > But it's sometimes useful (particularly on 8 bit machines like the 8080 > to consider it as 2 separate 8 bit bytes. > > 01101001 10101111 > > Which are (of course) 69 and AF hex. In octal they're 151 and 257 (I > hope), and it's not obvious at a glance how they're related to 064657 > > Some 8080 people/machines (I've not seen it done on many other > processors) write 16 bit numbers as 2 8-bit bytes in octal. They'd write > the above number as 151 257 and not 064657. That's what I'd assumed you > were doing here. > > > > The R key is a hardwired reset. > > It's labelled 'Reset' on my keypad. > > > and the A, B, and C keys are not used by the KEX program. > > The 'C' label is missing (although I'd deduced that's what it should be > from the KEX listing). The other labels are worn, but readable > > > By the way this kit was also called the Mini Micro Designer > (MMD-1) and was > > distributed by Circuit Design, inc. for $125 in kit form. > > That's what mine is!. It says MMD-1 in the corner of the PCB silk-screen. > > > Francois > > -tony > > From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue Apr 21 07:38:29 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: 5150 Message-ID: <01bd6d22$6356f200$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 21 April 1998 12:27 Subject: Re: 5150 . . >It can be a little depressing to read a manual for a machine that you >know you'll never own or even see (like the PDP6 schematics that I >downloaded a couple of years ago). But I still think it's better than >knowing nothing about the machine/ Thats why I keep my NeXT book! From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Apr 21 07:42:24 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: 5150 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13349559848.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Depressing to have PDP-6 schematics cause we'll never see one go] I just finished printing that. :) I think I'll take the prints down to the Electronics department. "Hey, wanna build something Fun? Yeah, *LOTS* more fun than a code beeper..." Outside of money, what's to keep you from building one from the schematics? Nobody says you have to be 100% perfect, I'm sure you could modify here & there to make it usable to normal people... (Like normal power supplies, smaller parts, etc.) ------- From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Apr 21 08:45:47 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <9803218931.AA893191590@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Punched cards have one major design bug IMHO that's not shared by paper > tape. There's no 'column reference' on a card. On a tape, you can strobe > off the sprocket track, but alas on a card a totally unpunched column is > valid (=a space character). > > My Documation M200 uses the leading edge of the card as a reference. It > then counts pulses from a toothed wheel/pickup head on the card roller > shaft to deteremine where the columns should be. > > It's therefore almost impossible to make a hand-pulled card reader. I rather liked Allison's long array of photodetectors (of whatever flavour) to tell you where the leading edge is. But why not have the same wheel to determine the position, but the card turns the wheel rather than vice versa? You lose the non-contact element of hand pulling, but you don't get motors chewing delicate cards. Philip. From cfandt at servtech.com Tue Apr 21 08:54:45 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: Data General One In-Reply-To: <19980420222115.21920.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199804211359.JAA10802@cyber2.servtech.com> There was no hard drive option available for this machine (unless there was a third party outfit who offered an internal kludge or external unit.) Only one _or_ two internal floppies plus the external floppy unit. IIRC, the extra ribbon connector was for a memory expansion module. Regards, Chris At 15:21 20-04-98 -0700, you wrote: > >There's an interesting one. I only have two floppy drives. Where >would the hard drive go? There's an extra ribbon plug on the MB, >same as for the display and keyboard, what's that for? > >> >>I'd like the hard drive if it still works. >> >>James L. Rice >> >>Max Eskin wrote: >>> >>> I got a Data General One laptop that someone was using as a wheel- >>> chock at a flea market. It has a smashed LCD, and won't start. ======================================================= Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian 31 Houston Avenue, WE Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home Jamestown, New York +716-661-1832 -Office 14701-2627 USA Fax: +716-661-1888 -Office fax email: cfandt@servtech.com Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 21 11:19:26 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:27 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980421111926.00be8c70@pc> Tony Duell wrote: >Punched cards have one major design bug IMHO that's not shared by paper >tape. There's no 'column reference' on a card. >It's therefore almost impossible to make a hand-pulled card reader. Come to think of it, perhaps a sub-$50 B/W QuickCam would make a cheaper reader than a scanner. You could aim it at the card, in a frame, and drive it by hand. Front-lighting and scanning can put a non-card color behind the holes. Or you could back-light with infrared LEDs and take advantage of chip-cam IR sensing. Unlike phototransistor or mechanical solutions, it's not dependent on particular card geometry. I know the video/scanning route sounds like technological overkill. What's wrong with that? :-) It reminds me of my day-dream to rescue audio cassette data using PC sound card digitizing. I like these novel solutions because they are less dependent on esoteric hardware, and the core - the software - is more portable and transportable into the future and to users who need it. Sounds like Ethan has more spare time than I do, though! - John Jefferson Computer Museum From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Apr 21 12:24:02 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: 1702 EPROMs References: Message-ID: <353CD632.F672C1AD@bbtel.com> You can also try Mouser Electronics ( http://www.mouser.com/ ) or DigiKey Electronics (http://www.digikey.com ) for the parts that someone is looking for. For anyone that is into prototyping or modifying you should get Nuts-N-Volts magazine. Tons of info and suppliers as well. They have a web site at http://www.nutsvolts.com/ and I think you can even request a free sample copy right there on the website as well as sign up for a subscription. John Rollins wrote: > Wasn't there someone on here a while ago looking for 1702's? Whoever that > was, you might want to try Jameco(http://www.jameco.com), the catalog I > have shows them at $1.95 each, but I don't know how many they have left, if > any... > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY > | > -------------------------------------------------------------- -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Apr 21 11:57:06 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: What's a KFQSA? In-Reply-To: <199804211602.JAA14980@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <13349606212.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Here's a question: What's a KFQSA? ------- From peacock at simconv.com Tue Apr 21 12:30:37 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Addition Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E895@mail.simconv.com> >> >> Could someone tell me what the configuration of individual gates >> is (one of them, at least) for binary addition (or provide an EASY >> TO FIND reference)? > I'll give you the equations, you can draw the gates yourself (it's > getting late...) > lots of stuff about adders There is a much easier one chip solution, the brute force approach. Take a TTL PROM, size dependent on how big an adder you need, use the address lines as terms A and B, and use the outputs as the result. For instance, for a 4 bit adder, use a 256x8 TTL PROM, lower 4 address bits are A, upper 4 are B, and the 8 output lines are the result (only 5 used, 4 plus carry). Program the PROM with all the possible results. You can also make a poor man's multiplier or divider the same way. For a multiplier all 8 output lines would be used. Jack Peacock From pcoad at wco.com Tue Apr 21 12:37:26 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Help - Sun 2 won't boot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have a look at the Sun Hardware Reference at: ftp://ftp.picarefy.com/pub/Sun-Hardware-Ref/OLD/parts Specifically look at part 3. (Search for "2050 CPU VME") It has a list of the diagnostics and the led patterns which go with them. It looks like bad memory. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Pete Joules wrote: > I have just got a Sun 2 clone workststion (Sun boards in an unbranded box) > and it won't boot. > > If any one can decode the 'heartbeat' LEDs here is the code. > > Looking down at the edge of the CPU board: > > =============[Empty connector]=========[oxxx ooox]==================== > > where x is LED off and o is LED on. > > I would like to mend this myself if possible. If it is going to require > component level diagnosis and repair then please bear in mind that I > haven't used a soldering iron or meter in anger since I was mending > televisions at school - when they all had 405 lines on the screen and > valves. > > Regards > Pete > > From erd at infinet.com Tue Apr 21 12:37:17 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980421111926.00be8c70@pc> from "John Foust" at Apr 21, 98 11:19:26 am Message-ID: <199804211737.NAA02352@user2.infinet.com> > > Come to think of it, perhaps a sub-$50 B/W QuickCam would make a > cheaper reader than a scanner. Good idea. I hadn't thought of that. I think there's Linux software for the QuickCam. > I know the video/scanning route sounds like technological overkill. > What's wrong with that? :-) It reminds me of my day-dream to > rescue audio cassette data using PC sound card digitizing. Been there, done that. There's a commercial program to convert .WAV files of C-64 data tapes back into usable files. It also works if you hook a real C-64 datassete to the parallel port. > I like these novel solutions because they are less dependent on > esoteric hardware, and the core - the software - is more portable > and transportable into the future and to users who need it. Yes. I have enough forms of esoteric media that I have a vested interest in keeping them readable. > Sounds like Ethan has more spare time than I do, though! Perhaps. > - John > Jefferson Computer Museum -ethan Computer Museum curator-in-training From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Apr 21 14:57:05 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: What's a KFQSA? In-Reply-To: <13349606212.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 21, 98 09:57:06 am Message-ID: <199804211957.MAA14310@u1.netgate.net> > > Here's a question: What's a KFQSA? That would be a Qbus DSSI controller. I have one in my MicroVAX 3800. I know just the bare minimum about it to have my system working, unfortunately. I believe the disks are controlled with MSCP over DSSI. It can also be used as a Cluster Interconnect on VAXen (don't know about qbus PDP's -- it's sadly been far too long since I played with any PDP *pout pout* :) The KZQSA is the board I'd really like to have -- it's the QBus SCSI controller cousin of the KFQSA, and I'd finally be able to hang a SCSI tape and perhaps a spare disk off my MicroVAX. -Seth - PDP lover who has too many VAXen and no PDPs :) From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Apr 21 15:50:33 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: 5100 book(xpost) Message-ID: <353D0698.2F0A6323@bbtel.com> Don't write to me on this, write the the fellow below if this interests anyone. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cliff Boyer Alton, IL USA - Tuesday, April 21, 1998 at 00:11:30 I for got something a minute ago. I found in a 2nd hand store a book that may be of some intrest. It is titled "The IBM 5100 PORTABLE COMPUTER, A Comprehensive Guide For Users and Programmers". Hard Bound, Published 1977. Deals with BASIC & APL languages' and basic overview of computer. Excellent condition. I don't need it, so it's first come first served! $5 would cover book & shipping! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Apr 21 15:12:02 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: What's a KFQSA? In-Reply-To: <199804211957.MAA14310@u1.netgate.net> Message-ID: <13349641700.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [No PDPs...] Where are you? I have a load of PDPs, but I've been hunting for a Q-bus VAX. I have a 23+ I can let go of, but you'd need something to boot from. It has an EDSI controller I'd like to keep. ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Apr 21 15:14:40 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: What's a KFQSA? In-Reply-To: <199804211957.MAA14310@u1.netgate.net> Message-ID: <13349642180.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> By the way, What's DSSI? ------- From rws at ais.net Tue Apr 21 15:19:16 1998 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: 1702 EPROMs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, John Rollins wrote: > Wasn't there someone on here a while ago looking for 1702's? Whoever that > was, you might want to try Jameco(http://www.jameco.com), the catalog I > have shows them at $1.95 each, but I don't know how many they have left, if > any... Sadly, according to operator Eileen, they are gone. I checked the Rochester Electronics catalog ("leaders on the trailing edge of technology") and they aren't making them that I could find. Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From dcoward at pressstart.com Tue Apr 21 16:04:06 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Archiving, H10, Super Elf Message-ID: <19980421140406.4c442c04.in@mail.pressstart.com> Thanks to everyone that responded about archiving documents. I printed out all the replies and I'm in the process of experimenting. IT'S ALIVE About two months ago I picked up a package deal that included an H-8 computer, H-17 dual (hard sector) floppy drive unit, a couple of boxes of 5 1/4 diskettes (HDOS), a 4K Altair Basic paper tape and manual, and a H-10 paper tape reader/punch with all the manuals. I had the boxes sent to work so as soon as I unpacked everything I connected the H-8 up. I used my Pentium as the terminal and the H-8 fired right up into HDOS. Anyway... The H-10 had been nonfunctioning for years because the owner had arc tested the electronics board with a screwdriver. Last week I took a break from scanning manuals to take the H-10 apart on the kitchen table. It turned out to be 2 1N4002 diodes in the 5 volt supply that had both shorted. It works. Now I just have to order some new paper tape. It came with 3 rolls but the tape is so old that it breaks when an entire row of holes are punched and the sprocket keeps ripping the sprocket holes even with no tension on the tape. I'll try to get some pictures of the insides to put up. It's beautiful. Nine large solenoids connect to the punch head by rods about 6-7 inches long. The read head uses a lamp that looks like an automobile tail lamp. The cool part is that the H-10 can copy tapes stand-alone (without being connected to the computer). Well, I'm excited. By the way. Question: If I made the claim on my ELF page that the 32 byte prom based monitor on the SUPER ELF was the "smallest manufacturer installed firmware operating system for a digital microcomputer" would anyone here disagree? (I'm trying to add more infomation to this page of my museum) Later ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 21 16:19:58 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Old standards Message-ID: <19980421211959.6280.qmail@hotmail.com> I'm curious about the various home/small business computer standards. I know about the PC standard *sigh*. There was also the MSX standard which involved a Z80 and 64K ram, I think. What other ones were there? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From peacock at simconv.com Tue Apr 21 17:30:14 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Old standards Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E897@mail.simconv.com> From: Max Eskin [mailto:maxeskin@hotmail.com] << I'm curious about the various home/small business computer standards. I know about the PC standard *sigh*. There was also the MSX standard which involved a Z80 and 64K ram, I think. What other ones were there? >> Quite a few. from memory....the S-100, probably the earliest micro bus to become popular. A standard business configuration for 8-bit would be a Z-80, 64K RAM, 5.25" floppies, serial ports to a CRT terminal and printer, and CP/M-80, running applications written in CBASIC. For 16-bit systems it would be an 80286, 1MB RAM, hard drive in the 40MB range, 4 to 16 serial ports to CRT terminals and printers, maybe even a modem, running MP/M or Concurrent DOS, again with applications written in BASIC. A lot of single board Z80, 8086, and 80286 systems (like Altos) built this same basic configuration, but without an expansion bus. The SS-50, a competitor for the S-100 but using Motorola 6800 CPU, never really caught on. VME, an industrial bus still alive today, lots of different CPUs supported over the years, but it started with an Intel 8080. Motorola came up with a competing bus that looked very similar to S-100 except it used 86 pin bus, called Exor, something like that, never caught on either, though Motorola did their best to promote it for a while. There were some holdovers from the mini makers. Q-bus, DEC's bus for the PDP-11 micros and later the MicroVAX. A typical PDP would be a PDP-11/03 CPU, 64K RAM, 2.5MB hard drive (RK05), 4 port serial to a VT-100 terminal, and a DECwriter II for a printer. Business apps were written in FORTRAN, DIBOL, or BASIC, usually running on the RT-11 operating system. BTW the Q-bus wasn't strictly DEC proprietary, DEC sold PDP-11 CPU chips for a while, Plessey made their own PDP-11 systems with them. DEC later dropped CPU sales when they found out the other manufacturers were just taking away DEC customers, not expanding into new markets. Sort of like MAC clones... VAX Q-bus configurations are still around in sizeable numbers (we have some in the office). The machines aren't fast, but very reliable (as in years per hardware failure). It's not unheard of for VMS systems to run for a year or more between boots. A common setup in the late 80's was the MicroVAX II (roughly equivalent to a 386), a 32-bit CPU with up to 16MB of RAM. An 8 slot chassis, holding the CPU board, 2 memory boards, disk controller (RQDX3, MFM), tape controller (TK50), Ethernet controller, and an 8-port serial card (DHV11). Drives would be either 70MB or 160MB. The tape drive could hold about 95MB. It ran VMS (still in use today), or less commonly Ultrix (DEC Unix). Several languages are available, including C, FORTRAN, COBOL, and BASIC. DEC has discontinued new VAX Q-bus machines, and new VAXes in general, but they have large stocks of VAX CPU chips, enough to last a few more years. Intersil made the IM6100, a microprocessor version of the 12-bit PDP-8, but I don't recall if a bus was ever associated with it. Data General had a bus for the NOVA minis and I believe Fairchild made a micro version based on the 9440 microprocessor (NOVA instruction set). Texas Instruments made the 9900, a micro version of their minis, and it had some kind of proprietary TI bus. Jack Peacock From jrice at texoma.net Tue Apr 21 18:11:56 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Data General One References: <199804211359.JAA10802@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: <353D27BC.EA70BA95@texoma.net> There was a series of industrial computers marketed by Allen-Bradley, produced by DG and based on the DG1 that were hard drive equipted...I have one, but my drive is trashed. James L. Rice Christian Fandt wrote: > > There was no hard drive option available for this machine (unless there was > a third party outfit who offered an internal kludge or external unit.) Only > one _or_ two internal floppies plus the external floppy unit. > > IIRC, the extra ribbon connector was for a memory expansion module. > > Regards, Chris > > At 15:21 20-04-98 -0700, you wrote: > > > >There's an interesting one. I only have two floppy drives. Where > >would the hard drive go? There's an extra ribbon plug on the MB, > >same as for the display and keyboard, what's that for? > > > >> > >>I'd like the hard drive if it still works. > >> > >>James L. Rice > >> > >>Max Eskin wrote: > >>> > >>> I got a Data General One laptop that someone was using as a wheel- > >>> chock at a flea market. It has a smashed LCD, and won't start. > > ======================================================= > Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > 31 Houston Avenue, WE Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home > Jamestown, New York +716-661-1832 -Office > 14701-2627 USA Fax: +716-661-1888 -Office fax > email: cfandt@servtech.com > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From jrice at texoma.net Tue Apr 21 18:19:42 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Commodore Monitors Message-ID: <353D298E.C75C4924@texoma.net> I picked up a C-128D this morning and need a monitor for it. As this is my first Commodore, I have a couple of questions. Is the RGBI port on the rear panel the same as RGB as in IMB CGA? Where might I find a CBM 1902 monitor? Were there any 1902 compatible monitors produced by anyine else? I only picked this one up because I wanted a machine that would rum CP/M. It came with CP/M 3.0 boot disks and manuals. Thanks' James From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 21 18:28:37 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Old standards Message-ID: <199804212328.AA07346@world.std.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 21, 98 05:42:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1108 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/e293fe1a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 16:26:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info In-Reply-To: <000001bd6d14$359e9240$6d711d80@groberts.mitre.org> from "Glenn Roberts" at Apr 21, 98 06:56:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/736ae86b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 16:06:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <199804210315.XAA22434@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 20, 98 11:15:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2550 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/797b42fe/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 17:20:56 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <199804211737.NAA02352@user2.infinet.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 21, 98 01:37:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 779 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/6ac01303/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 16:10:56 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <199804210434.AA25893@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 21, 98 00:34:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2226 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/7569067b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 17:26:36 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Archiving, H10, Super Elf In-Reply-To: <19980421140406.4c442c04.in@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at Apr 21, 98 02:04:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 995 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/487c5a49/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 16:50:14 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E895@mail.simconv.com> from "Jack Peacock" at Apr 21, 98 10:30:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980421/53bb1e60/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Tue Apr 21 18:42:33 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Data General One In-Reply-To: <353BA895.F9F48D3A@navix.net> from "Cord Coslor" at Apr 20, 98 12:57:10 pm Message-ID: <199804212342.TAA13944@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Cord Coslor once stated: > > Max: > > I'd certainly take some spare parts from your DG/1. I also am looking > for power supply information. So if you or anyone else knows, *please* > let me know as well. > Sorry I took awhile for this, but I didn't get home until rather late last night (or rather early this morning 8-) Anyway, the power transformer has the following information: 120VAC 50/60Hz 0.75A Max input DC 6.4V 2A output 1 (to computer) DC 6.4V 3A output 2 (in my case, to the printer - separate cable) Looking at the back of the DG1 into the power connector, the positive is on the left, negative on the right. -spc (Hope this helps some) From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 21 19:25:55 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Cool find Message-ID: <19980422002555.14327.qmail@hotmail.com> A few hours ago, I rescued from the trash a Data General commemorative 5-year anniversary serving tray. It is a shallow wooden box, 1' X 1.25' X 1", with handles on the narrow sides. The inside bottom of the box, on which you would put the teapot and so on, it says,"Data General Five Years of Service 1983". Surrounding that text is a timeline of 1977-1978, with photos. It starts with, "Corporate Quality Logo Chosen", and ends with "Data General Weathers the Blizzard -Data General employees in the northeast, particularly those in Massachusetts, have weathered what is now being called 'The Blizzard of '78'. Many Employees were stranded at DG plants that were surrounded by more than 20 inches of snow. In true DG fashion, everyone joined together to make the best of it. DG sheltered many motorists who found themselves stranded." -My abbreviations. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Tue Apr 21 18:10:32 1998 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: 5150 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:30:01 BST." Message-ID: <199804212310.SAA12475@mathcs.rhodes.edu.> In message , ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: >> >> [Depressing to have PDP-6 schematics cause we'll never see one go] >> >> Outside of money, what's to keep you from building one from the schematics? > >Well, alas the docs I downloaded show the machine to module level only. >Now, a module is something like a gate or a flip-flop, so it's possible >to figure out how the machine worked, but it would be difficult to build >without schematics of the modules used. Has that manual appeared yet on >the web? Well I might be able to help there. I'm not in a position to scan them and put them on the web at the moment, but I do happen to have a couple of DEC data books in my collection. One is ca '64 and called System Modules. It contains 1000, 4000 and 6000 series modules. The other book describes what are the earliest series of flip-chip modules I've seen. It's dated 2/65 and contains the R, B, W and A series modules. I downloaded the PDP-6 drawings, but never got them printed satisfactorily, but I seem to remember reference to the system modules. Could you make a list of which ones were used on the 6? If so, I'll try to give a description of each, and if need be, try to dig up a scanner and scan the relevant pages. >> Nobody says you have to be 100% perfect, I'm sure you could modify here & >> there to make it usable to normal people... >> (Like normal power supplies, smaller parts, etc.) > >I must look again... It might be possible to make a modified design >using TTL. I thought the original PDP6 used some AC (capacitive) coupling >in at least the carry chain, so you couldn't just copy the schematics >using TTL chips and expect it to work. Many of the example circuits in this databook (including both a serial and a parallel adder) use capacitive coupling. So I expect that these are likely the same designs used on the early machines. Brian L. Stuart From peacock at simconv.com Tue Apr 21 19:46:26 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Addition Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E898@mail.simconv.com> From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] I was once involved with a design when we needed a nasty function of 3 TTL level signals. There wasn't space for a lot of extra gate packages. I immediately said that I could do it in one single TTL package. One of the other designers (who is very clueful) said 'Oh, I suppose you want a TTL PROM, or maybe one of those TI PALs with the 74-series numbers'. I said 'No, I can do it with a normal 16 pin TTL chip that doesn't have to go in a programmer first'. So, what was the chip ? 74LS138, 1 of 8 decoder, the three inputs go to A, B, C, all 8 possibilities decoded on the outputs. Jack Peacock From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 19:01:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Commodore Monitors In-Reply-To: <353D298E.C75C4924@texoma.net> from "James L. Rice" at Apr 21, 98 06:19:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980422/b8daf627/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 21 19:57:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E898@mail.simconv.com> from "Jack Peacock" at Apr 21, 98 05:46:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 906 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980422/5acad21f/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Tue Apr 21 20:06:44 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 21, 98 10:26:33 pm Message-ID: <199804220106.VAA14073@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > panel monitor used an octal keypad & display, and the octal thinking carried > > over to the assembler package. Heath also used "split octal" in the fashion > > you describe, so that > > > > 0110100110101111B (binary) > > 69af (hex) > > 64657Q (octal) > > 151257A (split octal) > > > > are all equivalent. if you've never seen it before you'd swear this is a > > dumb idea, but it grows on you! > > Actually I think Octal is a dumb idea for 8 or 16 bit processors :-) - But oddly enough, if you look at the 8080 instruction set through octal eyes, it makes sense. Heck, the 8086 instruction set as see through octal eyes makes it look sensible. Of course, most book will show the opcodes as hexidecimal and that makes it look rather ugly. > apart from the PDP11, of course, where bit-fields end on 3-bit boundaries > so it's easy to decode octal instructions in your head... Although hexidecimal is very suited for the VAX though. I'm sure once you get the hang of the common instructions and the address modes, you could read a hex dump of VAX code. > I've just thought. In some microcode binary formats it was common to list > the instructions not in octal, or in hex, but in (say) hex with each > digit corresponding to a bit field in the word. Suppose you had [ snip ] > Did any machine languages ever write the opcodes like that, I wonder? No, but for some machines it would make sense (say, for the 68k, where most instuctions follow a 4:3:3:3:3 format) -spc (Which makes it almost, but not quite, nice for octal) From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 21 20:33:13 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <199804220133.AA12298@world.std.com> <> =============================================================guide rai <> + <> + <> + <> + <> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ <<<<<< ^ + <> | + <> / + <> | + <> |=============================================================guide rai <> ^optos to read the leading edge of the card for column clock, spacing <> is such that each one is obscured as the column is over the column <> leds making it self indexing. It's possible to go very fast. < Message-ID: <353D51C4.BF09381C@texoma.net> Thanks's Tony. I have several old Tandy CGA monitors around. I'll try one of those. James Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I picked up a C-128D this morning and need a monitor for it. As this is > > my first Commodore, I have a couple of questions. Is the RGBI port on > > the rear panel the same as RGB as in IMB CGA? Where might I find a CBM > > According to the C128 service manual (I don't have the C128-D one), the > DE-9 connector (RGB output) is indeed the same as a CGA monitor connector > with a monochrome signal on pin 7 (not used on a CGA card/monitor). You > should be able to plug a CGA monitor in with no problems. > > -tony From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 21 22:11:41 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Addition Message-ID: <199804220311.AA04998@world.std.com> Sorry to post a partially less-than-on-topic message: Brian, recently you posted concerning a book you were interested in, and I e-mailed you (privately) concerning it... did you recieve the e-mail? I only ask this way because my ISP seems to be getting, shall we say, slightly less 'vigilant' when it comes to %100 delivery rates. Now, spam, on the other hand....... ;} Anyway, if any interest in Korn and Korn still, write me back. If not, accept my apologies for this. ObClassiccmp: Southern Cal collectors... the TRW swap meet is this Saturday, the 25th, at the TRW plant in El Segundo, CA from 7:00 to 11:30 am. I will have some DEC PDP and Plessey items for sale or trade... and also I have heard from my spies that Marvin (of this list) will once again mis-appropriate one of my two precious spaces, where he will try to foist^H^H^H^H^H sell some of his Very Good Stuff to any unsuspecti^H^H^H^H^H discriminating buyers. I get first pick. :) Further details posted if any interest in the Group, otherwise e-mail me privately. There *is* some room for a few other items, should someone wish to also participate; free of charge, you just have to get your stuff down there. A Note to collectors: there are frequently some nice finds... Kaypro II, IV, 10... $5, an IBM sys36 complete, $25 *delivered* (!) S100 things, etc, etc. And it's always fun to meet other folks on this list in person, as well... Cheers John From fauradon at pclink.com Tue Apr 21 23:21:37 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Week-end finds Message-ID: <000b01bd6da6$25e05720$25010bce@fauradon> Hi, I just got back. The Channel F is the first programmable color cartidge based video console. It predates the Atari 2600 by about 1 year (1976). The controllers have 8 degrees of freedom: normal joystic directions plus twisting plus pushing up or down. The ISBN fo the Haddock is: 0-89689-098-8 Copyright 1993 The publisher is: Books Americana, Inc. P.O. Box 2326 Florence, Alabama 35630 And I still can't believe that the COCO had a 6899E for a processor :) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Greg Troutman To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 10:48 AM Subject: Re: Week-end finds >Max Eskin wrote: >> >> Two questions: a) what is a channel F? > >It's a video game console. Older than the Atari 2600, I think it was >the first programmable home system introduced. > >-- >mor@crl.com >http://www.crl.com/~mor/ > From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 22 00:01:55 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Commodore Monitors References: <353D298E.C75C4924@texoma.net> Message-ID: <353D79C2.E2B036CC@bbtel.com> James L. Rice wrote: > I picked up a C-128D this morning and need a monitor for it. As this is > my first Commodore, I have a couple of questions. Is the RGBI port on > the rear panel the same as RGB as in IMB CGA? Where might I find a CBM > 1902 monitor? Were there any 1902 compatible monitors produced by > anyine else? You can use a stiock CGA monitor but only in 80 column mode. If I come across a source with a good 1902 I'll drop you a direct email. > I only picked this one up because I wanted a machine that would rum > CP/M. It came with CP/M 3.0 boot disks and manuals. Type "GO 64" at the Basic 7 prompt and you can go into 40 column Basic 2 mode to run those fussy programs. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 22 20:58:04 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Old standards In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E897@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <199804220555.BAA22054@smtp.interlog.com> On 21 Apr 98 at 15:30, Jack Peacock wrote: > From: Max Eskin [mailto:maxeskin@hotmail.com] > > << I'm curious about the various home/small business computer standards. > I know about the PC standard *sigh*. There was also the MSX standard > which involved a Z80 and 64K ram, I think. What other ones were there? > >> > > The SS-50, a competitor for the S-100 but using Motorola 6800 CPU, never > really caught on. VME, an industrial bus still alive today, lots of > different CPUs supported over the years, but it started with an Intel > 8080. Motorola came up with a competing bus that looked very similar to > S-100 except it used 86 pin bus, called Exor, something like that, never > caught on either, though Motorola did their best to promote it for a > while. > > > Jack Peacock > How would you identify these busses ? More particularly I'm wondering whether the Wang PC I picked up was an Exor or ss50. It's not the standard configuration. Uses upright 1/2 cards , has some Zilogs , Motorolas, and an 8086. I've heard Wang was one of the most innovative companies. Could they have cobbled together many of the existant technologies on this machine ? It obviously is not a clone. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 22 20:58:05 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Commodore Monitors In-Reply-To: <353D298E.C75C4924@texoma.net> Message-ID: <199804220556.BAA22060@smtp.interlog.com> On 21 Apr 98 at 18:19, James L. Rice wrote: > I picked up a C-128D this morning and need a monitor for it. As this is > my first Commodore, I have a couple of questions. Is the RGBI port on > the rear panel the same as RGB as in IMB CGA? Where might I find a CBM > 1902 monitor? Were there any 1902 compatible monitors produced by > anyine else? > > I only picked this one up because I wanted a machine that would rum > CP/M. It came with CP/M 3.0 boot disks and manuals. > > Thanks' > > James > There's usually lots advertised on the comp.sys.cbm newsgroup. I'm not sure whether the 1702 and 1802 also work with the 128D but someone there would know. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Apr 22 20:58:03 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: PS/2 SCSI question In-Reply-To: <353C28C0.CA3E9907@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <199804220556.BAA22078@smtp.interlog.com> On 21 Apr 98 at 0:04, Russ Blakeman wrote: > David Wollmann wrote: > > > At 01:31 PM 4/19/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >David Wollmann wrote: > > > > > >> That's a Centronics Micro. I have a Asus SC875 (NCR) host adapter that uses > > >> the same connector (great adapter for Linux, BTW.) I got my cable (Cent. > > > I was full of it--my fuzzy memory tells me the card with the tiny > > Centronics is an Adaptec SCSI-2 Fast. Next time I make my way upstairs I'll > > take a look for sure. > > No you were right. It's equivelant to an RS-6000 connection. I found the > references on a few The IBM SCSI connector IS known commonly as a RS-6000 . You might get one cheaper if you refer to it as such. I have 2 PS2s in need of these but will build my own before I pay that outrageous price. They are snapped up quickly when they come up for sale on comp.sys.ibm. hardware.ps2. $40-60. I'm amazed that some enterprising soul hasn't come up with an adapter, since the regular SCSI cables are readlly available. Trust IBM to do it their way. Let us know if you find a cheap source. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Apr 22 01:51:14 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: What's a KFQSA? In-Reply-To: <13349642180.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 21, 98 01:14:40 pm Message-ID: <199804220651.XAA27594@u1.netgate.net> > > By the way, What's DSSI? > Well, it appears to be Yet Another variation on SCSI, but with more Oomf. (how's that for a really clever way of admitting "I don't know the protocol details"? :) Seriously though, it's both a disk bus and a host interconnect for VAXen. I don't know if PDP's ever used DSSI, though I imagine they probably did. Each DSSI disk (RFXX series DEC disks) has a complete "host" built into the on-disk logic board. The disk firmware acts like a little tiny host, for sharing in a cluster for instance, or for just talking to the KFQSA controller. This allows each RFXX disk to do low-level sharing in a cluster, handling requests for disk access from remote hosts without relying on the VAX host to take care of processing them, apart from handling the Ethernet<->DSSI bridge if Ethernet is being used as the cluster interconnect. You can also connect two VAX computers directly together over a DSSI bus, using an external DSSI cable. On a VAX, you can do this at the console ROM monitor: >>> SET HOST/DUP/UQSSP/DISK 0 Upon hitting , you are connected to the on-disk firmware of DISK 0, where you can perform diagnostics, change firmware settings, format the disk, run tests, and so forth. Really quite neat. I'm sure other disk connections do this, but DSSI is the only one I'm familiar with. Anything else out there like this? -Seth From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Apr 22 02:16:41 1998 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 help needed Message-ID: <199804220716.AAA00705@u1.netgate.net> Well, folks, it looks like I lied in my recent post about not having a PDP-11. Actually, I _do_ have one. I simply forgot that I had, stashed away, an 11/23 CPU and some boards ("common as houseflies" was the term Allison used? :> ) Since it was not in a rack, and since the pieces have never been assembled, and since I have no disks for it, I pretty much forgot about it, and I've never had it working. But it appears I have a fairly nice, complete system, board-wise. Here's what I have: ----- Chassis: DBA11-N Cards: 1. M8186 (KDF11-AA) 11/23 CPU with KTF11-AA (MMU), sockets for FP11 2. M8047-CA (MXV11-AC) 16-Kword RAM, 2 async EIA SLU, w/ 2 24-pin ROMs 3. M8047-CA (MXV11-AC) 16-Kword RAM, 2 async EIA SLU, sockets for ROMs 4. M8044-DB (MSV11-DD) 32-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM 5. M8044-DC (MSV11-DD) 32-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM 6. M7269 (RKV11) RK05 controller 7. Data Systems Design 818836-01 REV B -- RX01, RX02, or RX50 controller?? (25-pin ribbon-cable connector) ----- So, in order to get this whole thing working again, I have a WHOLE SLEW of questions to ask folks, in no particular order. Here goes. 1) The M8047-CA boards need to be wire-wrapped to assign their address vectors -- they're combination MOS RAM and Async EIA, and I have no docs for them. Can anyone guide me to some info, or tell me how to jumper one of them to be console serial port, and the other to be next in line on the bus? The wire-wrap pins have absolutely no markings on them, not even any single-letter or number labels, so this one could require ASCII-art to describe :) 2) Same as above, but for the M8044-DB boards. I could put one of these in with the M8047's to get a full 64Kword of RAM, yes? Does anyone know what the DIP-switch settings for these boards are? 3) I'd love to have the RK05 controller in there, in the hopes that someday I'll have an RK05 to play with. Just like the above... How do I jumper it, and where (physically) in the Bus should I put it? 4) Actually, that raises a good question. All of these boards are single-height (1/2 the width of the Q-bus backplane). I know there is some special physical layout the boards should use when they populate the backplane, but what is it? My best (probably wrong) guess right now is: CPU in row 1, slot 1 (is that left or right?), M8047's in row 2, slots 1 and 2, M8044 in row 3, slot 1, M7269 in row 4, slot 1, DSD controller in row 4, slot 2. Does that make any sense? Should the CPU only live in the first row, not RAM? I seem to remember something like this from the darkest depths of my mind, but I don't remember for sure. 5) OK, simple question, one I've wondered about but never bothered getting answered because I felt like a complete idiot moron asking it: Does the QBUS need to be terminated by a special card in any way, in order to work? 6) What's the pin-out on the M8047 EIA ports? They're 9-pin Berg connectors, and I need to build a cable for them to connect either to 9-pin or 25-pin PC-style serial in order to set up any kind of console terminal. 7) Anyone know what the Data Systems Design board is? It has "RX" stensiled onto the board near the jumper block, among other things like "BOOT", so I assume it's some sort of RX01 or RX50 controller or some such. WHEW, that's _too_ many questions. Anyone who can tackle one of them gets my respect, and you may award yourself one cookie. I'd like to piece this system together and get it working to the point where I can play with it and at least fiddle with the monitor again, playing with Octal. And I'd dearly love to put it in a proper DEC desk-side rack with an RK05, but that comes later... Thanks much, -Seth From dastar at wco.com Wed Apr 22 02:14:07 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Old standards In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E897@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Jack Peacock wrote: > From: Max Eskin [mailto:maxeskin@hotmail.com] > > << I'm curious about the various home/small business computer standards. > I know about the PC standard *sigh*. There was also the MSX standard > which involved a Z80 and 64K ram, I think. What other ones were there? > >> > > Quite a few. from memory....the S-100, probably the earliest micro bus > to become popular. A standard business configuration for 8-bit would be > a Z-80, 64K RAM, 5.25" floppies, serial ports to a CRT terminal and > printer, and CP/M-80, running applications written in CBASIC. For > 16-bit systems it would be an 80286, 1MB RAM, hard drive in the 40MB > range, 4 to 16 serial ports to CRT terminals and printers, maybe even a > modem, running MP/M or Concurrent DOS, again with applications written > in BASIC. A lot of single board Z80, 8086, and 80286 systems (like > Altos) built this same basic configuration, but without an expansion > bus. <...> Of all the busses Jack named, he forgot the Intel Multi-bus standard. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Apr 22 03:41:36 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980415222619.7a1755b0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Joe wrote: > >Also seem to recall > >an article on the soviet Apple ][ clone of the time (CPU on a large > >daughterboard, pirated ROM, cost approx US $20,000) > > I remember that article. The entire motherboard was pirated! Not just > the ROM. The tops of the ICs had been ground off to hide the fact that they > were US made parts. How do we know that the $20,000 wasn't the cost of shipping the pirate motherboards to the Soviet Union from Canada, via Cuba? ;) Was it not the same in the States, with regards to Apple clones, as it was in Canada in the early 80s? My own family bought an Apple clone from one of the bigger (and perhaps more 'reputable'?) Apple cloners in the area. The ROMs were slightly modified (different name on bootup) and the power connector on the motherboard was changed, but otherwise I think the machine was identical to an Apple ][+. And the manuals were bound photocopies of Apple's manuals with the copyright messages missing (but the holes for the original ring binding clearly visible). They even sold bare motherboards, language card boards you could populate yourself, etc. I still use the photocopied "Apple ][ Reference Manual" I got with the clone, even though I've now got an original one stashed away somewhere. There were all kinds of small Apple cloners around, with various Apple variety and fruit names ("Granny Smith", "McIntosh", "Pear", etc.). The only obvious differences between most of these machines and an actual Apple ][+ was the lack of the Apple logo, and usually the presence of lower case display (though not necessarily the shift-key mod, which my machine lacks). Some had additional stuff, though, like function keys and slightly differently shaped cases. Or maybe a different colour of plastic. Maybe I should start collecting Apple clones, seeing as I see them more frequently than actual Apples (clones were more affordable). So the Soviets pirated the Apple ][, who didn't? A shame about the price, though. Why pirate the Apple if your clone is going to be even MORE expensive than the real thing? BTW, my clone fell ill a while ago, and I've replaced it with a genuine Apple //e (the clone is back in its original box). Thanks to depreciation, the //e was *much* less expensive than the clone was. And it even had an additional 256K RAM card in it (now populated up to 512K). :) Too bad the //e won't work with any of my Z80 cards. :/ > Joe Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Apr 22 04:00:42 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980415222619.7a1755b0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980422040042.0a070a7a@intellistar.net> At 04:41 AM 4/22/98 -0400, you wrote: > >On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Joe wrote: > >> >Also seem to recall >> >an article on the soviet Apple ][ clone of the time (CPU on a large >> >daughterboard, pirated ROM, cost approx US $20,000) >> >> I remember that article. The entire motherboard was pirated! Not just >> the ROM. The tops of the ICs had been ground off to hide the fact that they >> were US made parts. > >How do we know that the $20,000 wasn't the cost of shipping the pirate >motherboards to the Soviet Union from Canada, via Cuba? ;) > >Was it not the same in the States, with regards to Apple clones, as it was >in Canada in the early 80s? Sure it was. The Franklins were probably the best known Apple rip-offs ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H er ah, clones. At least until Apple sued them and Franklin had to actually design their own machines. >So the Soviets pirated the Apple ][, who didn't? But you missed the point. No other >COUNTRY< tried to pass off a pirated machine as their own. In fact, most cloners (pirates?) bragged about their similarity to the original machine, the Soviets claimed that their machine was an original design. To top it all off, they didn't even have the good sense to change the copywrite notice! >Maybe I should start collecting Apple clones, seeing as I see them more >frequently than actual Apples (clones were more affordable). That would probably be a pretty big collection just by itself! Joe From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Apr 22 06:41:23 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Schematics sites? Message-ID: Hi all, are there any good sites out there containing collections of schematics for old machines? I occasionally come across sites with a few schematics / info for specific machines, but has anyone collected stuff together for several different machines into one place? (It's something I keep on meaning to do myself - would there be much interest in this? I was thinking more along the lines of some of the more obscure hardware out there though, as there's probably plenty of places to get details on common machines such as the popular 8-bit micros of the early 80's. Would be nice to have copies of ROM/Disk images where possible too...) cheers Jules From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 22 07:59:35 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: Schematics sites? Message-ID: <199804221259.AA09958@world.std.com> >> No. the simple answers are always the best :) > >> There is the problem of copyrights and permission. Not as easy as you'd >> think as the copyright live past the companies demise so you have to >> track where or who still holds it. I think roms/disks for some machines are no longer copyrighted though, no? (or at least freely distributable) - I think Acron's BBC machines fall under this category. There seemed to be a lot of people a few years back who took to putting rom/disk images up on public sites until somebody complained - presumably there's been a crackdown on that sort of thing recently though... (always seems a pity that the information is out there... somewhere... but almost impossible to get to!!) ta Jules > > From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Apr 22 09:36:40 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19980415222619.7a1755b0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199804221352.IAA25582@onyx.southwind.net> > > There were all kinds of small Apple cloners around, with various Apple > variety and fruit names ("Granny Smith", "McIntosh", "Pear", etc.). The > only obvious differences between most of these machines and an actual > Apple ][+ was the lack of the Apple logo, and usually the presence of > lower case display (though not necessarily the shift-key mod, which my > machine lacks). Some had additional stuff, though, like function keys and > slightly differently shaped cases. Or maybe a different colour of > plastic. I fondly remember an issue of BYTE from long ago, that was the April 1st edition, that had a phoney advertisement in it for a 'Lemon Computer' that looked suspiciously like an Apple ][ (with a rather distressed and dissheveled user scratching his head . .). This was long before BYTE became "The World's Computing Authority". Back then, it still had a sense of humour. Jeff From dastar at wco.com Wed Apr 22 09:21:15 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:28 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Doug Spence wrote: > There were all kinds of small Apple cloners around, with various Apple > variety and fruit names ("Granny Smith", "McIntosh", "Pear", etc.). The > only obvious differences between most of these machines and an actual > Apple ][+ was the lack of the Apple logo, and usually the presence of > lower case display (though not necessarily the shift-key mod, which my > machine lacks). Some had additional stuff, though, like function keys and > slightly differently shaped cases. Or maybe a different colour of > plastic. > > Maybe I should start collecting Apple clones, seeing as I see them more > frequently than actual Apples (clones were more affordable). I think the clones are more interesting than the real Apples at this point. They are more varied and in most areas are less common. More importantly they do have a historical significance. > So the Soviets pirated the Apple ][, who didn't? > > A shame about the price, though. Why pirate the Apple if your clone is > going to be even MORE expensive than the real thing? I think the reason they were so expensive is because the parts required to build them (chips & stuff) were so hard to obtain that they demanded a premium price. > BTW, my clone fell ill a while ago, and I've replaced it with a genuine > Apple //e (the clone is back in its original box). Thanks to > depreciation, the //e was *much* less expensive than the clone was. And > it even had an additional 256K RAM card in it (now populated up to 512K). > :) > > Too bad the //e won't work with any of my Z80 cards. :/ Hmmm...why is that? What do you get when you boot it up? I guess it could be your Z-80 card. I used to have problems running my Microsoft Softcard //e with my Transwarp II because of some bus conflict I imagine. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/13/98] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 22 09:49:52 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 help needed In-Reply-To: "Seth J. Morabito" "PDP 11/23 help needed" (Apr 22, 0:16) References: <199804220716.AAA00705@u1.netgate.net> Message-ID: <9804221549.ZM14550@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 22, 0:16, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > 1) The M8047-CA boards need to be wire-wrapped to assign their > address vectors -- they're combination MOS RAM and Async EIA, > and I have no docs for them. Can anyone guide me to some info, > or tell me how to jumper one of them to be console serial > port, and the other to be next in line on the bus? > The wire-wrap pins have absolutely no markings on them, not > even any single-letter or number labels, so this one could > require ASCII-art to describe :) There are umpteen pages of link settings in the manual. I'm not keen to type all that in ATM, but if no-one else answers in a few days, I might scan the pages and accidentally store them on my website (copyright? wassat?) > 2) Same as above, but for the M8044-DB boards. I could put one > of these in with the M8047's to get a full 64Kword of RAM, yes? > Does anyone know what the DIP-switch settings for these boards > are? Yes, but I'm not sure why you say "full" and 64Kword" together :-) 32KW (64KB) is the limit for 16-bit addressing, or 128KW (256KB) for 18-bit addressing. Ignoring the I/O page, that is. The MSV11-D addresses memeory on any 4KW boundary, set by the switches. SW1-5 = A13, SW1-1 = A17. Right under Sw1-5 are 2 wrapped links (6 posts) that set the memory *size* which you shouldn't need to change. There are 3 posts labelled 6,5,7 which set parity/no-parity; they should be jumpered 5-7 to set no parity for the -Dx. There are 3 posts labeled 2,1,3 near the B edge-connector which enable/disable use of the bottom 2K of Bank7; 1-3 to disable that. Lastly, there are two sets of power jumpers just above the notch between the connectors; these are used to set battery/no-battery option. > 3) I'd love to have the RK05 controller in there, in the hopes > that someday I'll have an RK05 to play with. Just like the > above... How do I jumper it, and where (physically) in the > Bus should I put it? Usually after the other IO/memory options. > 4) Actually, that raises a good question. All of these boards > are single-height (1/2 the width of the Q-bus backplane). > I know there is some special physical layout the boards should > use when they populate the backplane, but what is it? > My best (probably wrong) guess right now is: > CPU in row 1, slot 1 (is that left or right?), > M8047's in row 2, slots 1 and 2, > M8044 in row 3, slot 1, > M7269 in row 4, slot 1, DSD controller in row 4, slot 2. > > Does that make any sense? Should the CPU only live in the > first row, not RAM? I seem to remember something like this > from the darkest depths of my mind, but I don't remember > for sure. The processor should go in slot 1 (top) because that's the only one with connections to the RUN signal (used for the front panel light), though it will work elsewhere apart from that. Except in BA23/BA123 cabinets with H backplanes (see below). Normally you'd put the memory next, then the I/O, starting with the options that need the best CPU response (which is often the SLUs, not the disks). As to which side, that depends on the type of backplane. There are two main types; "serpentine" (aka "zigzag") which have Qbus in both A-B and C-D slots (A-B are the left side as you look into the card cage from outside, with slot 1 at the top), and "straight", which have QBus in the A-B slots, and C-D interconnect in, surprise surprise, C-D. In serpentine backplanes, the slots are wired in the order 1A/B, 1C/D, 2C/D, 2A/B, 3A/B, 3C/D.... There are variations in microPDP-11 backplanes, where the first 3 (BA23 cabinet, H9278-A backplane) or 4 (BA123 cabinet) slots are wired straight (Qbus in A-B, interconnect in C-D) and the rest are serpentine. That's to allow PMI memory in the top, and lots of dual-width options below. H9273, H9276 are straight. H9270 and H9275 are serpentine. You probably have an H9273, if it's an early 11/23. Later ones had H9276's (22-bit instead of 18-bit). There should be a label somewhere on it. That means you probably want all the cards in the left side, and none on the right. There are also odd ones like the various H9281-x which are only dual-wide, and the DDV-11 backplane which is hex wide, with Qbus in A/B and C/D, and interconnect in E/F. > 5) OK, simple question, one I've wondered about but never bothered > getting answered because I felt like a complete idiot moron > asking it: Does the QBUS need to be terminated by a special > card in any way, in order to work? Usually, yes. H9275 and H9278 backplanes have built-in terminator options. Others need a terminator card, such as a BDV11. The normal termination is a nominal 120 ohms, usually as 180/390-ohm resistor packs. > 6) What's the pin-out on the M8047 EIA ports? They're 9-pin Berg > connectors, and I need to build a cable for them to connect > either to 9-pin or 25-pin PC-style serial in order to set up > any kind of console terminal. Looking at the back of the card, components uppermost: ____________________ | | | 9 7 5 3 1 | | | | 10 8 6 4 2 | |___________________| 1 UART clock in/out (depending on a link, not all SLUs have this) 2 signal ground 3 transmit + 4 transmit - 5 signal ground 6 index - no pin 7 receive - 8 receive + 9 signal ground 10 some SLUs have +12V here, from a current-limiting resistor or a fuse, to supply a converter. I use it with a 1K series resistor to provide a pseudo-DTR signal for some terminals. For normal RS232, link 7-9, and use 3 as XMIT, 8 as RCV, 5 as SG, and ignore pin 4. > 7) Anyone know what the Data Systems Design board is? It has > "RX" stensiled onto the board near the jumper block, among > other things like "BOOT", so I assume it's some sort of RX01 > or RX50 controller or some such. Much more likely to be RX01 or RX02 than RX50. What kind of connector does it have? If 34-pin, it might be RX50 but could be like the Baydel units that use a 34-pin connector but are actually an SA800 interface. If 50-pin, probably an SA800/801 interface for 8" drives. > WHEW, that's _too_ many questions. Anyone who can tackle one of them > gets my respect, and you may award yourself one cookie. I prefer flapjacks :-) > I'd like to piece this system together and get it working to the > point where I can play with it and at least fiddle with the monitor > again, playing with Octal. And I'd dearly love to put it in a > proper DEC desk-side rack with an RK05, but that comes later... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 22 09:56:15 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <19980422145616.2433.qmail@hotmail.com> >On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Doug Spence wrote: >> There were all kinds of small Apple cloners around, with various Apple >> variety and fruit names ("Granny Smith", "McIntosh", "Pear", etc.). The Any lawsuits there with that second item? >> Apple ][+ was the lack of the Apple logo, and usually the presence of >> lower case display (though not necessarily the shift-key mod, which my >> machine lacks). Some had additional stuff, though, like function keys and >> slightly differently shaped cases. Or maybe a different colour of >> plastic. >> >> Maybe I should start collecting Apple clones, seeing as I see them more >> frequently than actual Apples (clones were more affordable). I have seen a Franklin once, and the rest were real Apples. >I think the clones are more interesting than the real Apples at this >point. They are more varied and in most areas are less common. More >importantly they do have a historical significance. So how many of them were there (ballpark)? >> So the Soviets pirated the Apple ][, who didn't? >> >> A shame about the price, though. Why pirate the Apple if your clone is >> going to be even MORE expensive than the real thing? > So that you can sell it back to the US and make a profit! > >> BTW, my clone fell ill a while ago, and I've replaced it with a genuine >> Apple //e (the clone is back in its original box). Thanks to >> depreciation, the //e was *much* less expensive than the clone was. And >> it even had an additional 256K RAM card in it (now populated up to 512K). >> :) >> >> Too bad the //e won't work with any of my Z80 cards. :/ > There has been a Z-80 card made for the Apple //c, which plugged into the processor socket. Has anyone seen it? I only saw it in a catalog. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/13/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Apr 22 11:08:55 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 help needed Message-ID: <9803228932.AA893286632@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Seth and Pete were discussing the PDP11-23... >> 2) Same as above, but for the M8044-DB boards. I could put one >> of these in with the M8047's to get a full 64Kword of RAM, yes? >> Does anyone know what the DIP-switch settings for these boards >> are? > > Yes, but I'm not sure why you say "full" and 64Kword" together :-) > 32KW (64KB) is the limit for 16-bit addressing, or 128KW (256KB) for 18-bit > addressing. Ignoring the I/O page, that is. Um... Am I way out here? Doesn't the 23 support 22 bit addressing? And I never before heard of a 16 bit Qbus! ISTRT the F11 processor is settable between 18 and 22 bit (128KW, 256KB and 2MW, 4MB respectively). The 18 bit setting is used in the 23 on 18 bit Qbuses and in the 24 on unibuses. The 22 bit setting is used on 22 bit Qbuses, but you need extra hardware to use it in the 24 (i.e. on unibus). Just my half groat's worth. Philip. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 22 10:07:31 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980422100731.00bdde80@pc> Ethan Dicks wrote: >Been there, done that. There's a commercial program to convert .WAV >files of C-64 data tapes back into usable files. It also works if >you hook a real C-64 datassete to the parallel port. I know these programs exist. There are some for the Spectrum and ZX-81, too. However, I could generalize and say they were all DOS-based, written in Pascal or assembler, don't come with source code, have poor documentation, etc. and I want to roll my own in straight portable C. I'd rather make it general to handle old S-100 tapes, C-64 tapes, etc. instead of just hard-coding one flavor. It should be ready in the year 2010. Tony Duell wrote: >I personally think I'll have more luck finding spares for my M200 card >reader, my Trend UDR700 paper tape reader, etc in 20 year time than >you'll have finding parts for a quickcam. No, my point is that it's more useful to have generic tools to help rescue old data. Sure, QuickCams are nearly disposable now. Cheap $1,500 PCs include them these days. Five years from now, they'll be embedded in cheap monitors. Ten years from now, they'll be in cereal boxes. Unless the hobby of collecting computer junk is adopted by Hollywood stars, I humbly suggest that it will be at least *more difficult* for you to find spares for your original equipment than it will be for me to find something that could deliver a bitmap by looking at my punched card. :-) - John Jefferson Computer Museum From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 22 09:31:32 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: paper tape Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980422093132.00bdc100@pc> "Doug Coward" wrote: >Now I just have to order some new paper tape. >It came with 3 rolls but the tape is so old that it breaks when an entire >row of holes are punched and the sprocket keeps ripping the sprocket >holes even with no tension on the tape. I just got 21 rolls of original yellow Teletype 1" tape from someone on the RTTY mailing list for the cost of shipping, and I promised to share the wealth, so ... - John Jefferson Computer Museum From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Apr 22 10:53:44 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Schematics sites? In-Reply-To: from "Julian Richardson" at Apr 22, 98 12:41:23 pm Message-ID: <199804221553.IAA02602@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi List: If not the schematics themselves, then how about a database indicating who has what? Users could submit a list of what they have, and others could search it for needed contacts. This wouldn't be too tough to accomplish - if there's consensus then I have an available machine that it could run on. Comments? Kevin > > Hi all, > > are there any good sites out there containing collections of schematics > for old machines? I occasionally come across sites with a few schematics > / info for specific machines, but has anyone collected stuff together > for several different machines into one place? > > (It's something I keep on meaning to do myself - would there be much > interest in this? I was thinking more along the lines of some of the > more obscure hardware out there though, as there's probably plenty of > places to get details on common machines such as the popular 8-bit > micros of the early 80's. Would be nice to have copies of ROM/Disk > images where possible too...) > > cheers > > Jules > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 22 10:03:54 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Schematics sites? In-Reply-To: Julian Richardson "RE: Schematics sites?" (Apr 22, 14:25) References: Message-ID: <9804221603.ZM14568@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 22, 14:25, Julian Richardson wrote: > >> There is the problem of copyrights and permission. Not as easy as you'd > >> think as the copyright live past the companies demise so you have to > >> track where or who still holds it. > > I think roms/disks for some machines are no longer copyrighted though, > no? (or at least freely distributable) - I think Acron's BBC machines > fall under this category. That's VERY manufacturer-specific, and doesn't apply to Acorn code. As Allison pointed out, you need some dispensation, either individually or to the public at large. > There seemed to be a lot of people a few years > back who took to putting rom/disk images up on public sites until > somebody complained - presumably there's been a crackdown on that sort > of thing recently though... Well, Motorola had a go at somebody a year or two ago, as I recall, and ISTR that ended after a bit of a row with the website in question being closed. OTOH, there's a site with old Sun boot roms and a note to the effect that if anyone from Sun objects, the site will remove them immediately on official request. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 22 10:10:46 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: Tony Duell "Re: Addition" (Apr 22, 1:57) References: Message-ID: <9804221610.ZM14593@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 22, 1:57, Tony Duell wrote: > Jack Peacock wrote: > > 'No, I can do it with a normal 16 pin TTL chip that doesn't have to go > > in a programmer first'. So, what was the chip ? > > > > 74LS138, 1 of 8 decoder, the three inputs go to A, B, C, all 8 > > possibilities decoded on the outputs. > > Alas not.. I didn't want the 8 separate combinations of the 3 input > variables - I wanted a single output that was a complex function of them > - something like A.C + A.B/ + A/.C/.B or something... I thought of that too. Then you might be able to do it with an AOI package, but I'd use a 156, which is a demultiplexer/decoder but with open-collector outputs, which I'd wire-AND. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 22 11:07:56 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 help needed In-Reply-To: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk "Re[2]: PDP 11/23 help needed" (Apr 22, 16:08) References: <9803228932.AA893286632@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <9804221707.ZM14663@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 22, 16:08, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > Subject: Re[2]: PDP 11/23 help needed > Seth and Pete were discussing the PDP11-23... > > >> 2) Same as above, but for the M8044-DB boards. I could put one > >> of these in with the M8047's to get a full 64Kword of RAM, yes? > >> Does anyone know what the DIP-switch settings for these boards > >> are? > > > > Yes, but I'm not sure why you say "full" and 64Kword" together :-) > > 32KW (64KB) is the limit for 16-bit addressing, or 128KW (256KB) for 18-bit > > addressing. Ignoring the I/O page, that is. > > Um... Am I way out here? Doesn't the 23 support 22 bit addressing? And > I never before heard of a 16 bit Qbus! ISTRT the F11 processor is > settable between 18 and 22 bit (128KW, 256KB and 2MW, 4MB respectively). > The 18 bit setting is used in the 23 on 18 bit Qbuses and in the 24 on > unibuses. The 22 bit setting is used on 22 bit Qbuses, but you need > extra hardware to use it in the 24 (i.e. on unibus). An 11/23 only supports 18/22-bit addressing if it has the MMU chip fitted, which almost all do, though it was, strictly speaking, an option (at least, for most of the 23's life). Early KDF11-A's (Rev.A) only support 18-bit, most (Rev.C) support 22-bit addressing -- iff they have the MMU. Otherwise, they can only access 16-bits of address space. I don't recall any setting to change that, you just only get 18 bits in an 18-bit backplane. If you try to access beyond that range, you get a bus error. ISTR that the ODT still works (always 18-bit) without the MMU, though. I can't easily check as the only one I have running ATM is a 22-bit system. A number of KDF11-A's were fitted to 11/03's as upgrades, and those had 18-bit backplanes. The 11/03, however, only had a 16-bit address range, as did early core, MOS RAM, and ROM boards. I wasn't referring to the bus as 16-bit, but to the address range. For slightly different reasons, you can't use an MSV11-D (or several other options) in a 22-bit system. It will fit in the backplane, and work fine, but it effectively turns the whole system into 18-bit, because it doesn't decode BAL18-21, and therefore responds to sixteen blocks of addresses. For similar reasons, the RKV11-D is not often used in 18-bit or 22-bit systems, since it can only perform DMA with 16-bit addressing (you can access the registers in an 18- or 22-bit system, of course, because it responds to the BBS7 signal). There are lots of other I/O options with similar restrictions. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 22 11:15:40 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 help needed Message-ID: <9804221715.ZM14681@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 22, 16:08, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > Subject: Re[2]: PDP 11/23 help needed > Seth and Pete were discussing the PDP11-23... > ISTRT the F11 processor is settable between 18 and 22 bit I forgot -- there's a bit in SSR3 that sets 18/22. You're quite correct about that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Apr 22 11:15:43 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Schematics sites? Message-ID: >> If not the schematics themselves, then how about a database indicating who >> has what? Users could submit a list of what they have, and others could >> search it for needed contacts. That's a pretty good idea... maybe store machines, related hardware, whether the user has manuals for the machine or not, other notes etc... It's a shame though about the copyright situation; I try to store binary images of everything that I can in the hope that I can recreate boot disks etc. in the event of problems, but it would be nice to be able to share those freely with others... (I suppose the danger with this, as with anything on the 'net, is that we end up with thousands of people all trying to do the same thing and end up with the current situation of knowing that the information is probably there *somewhere* but spending years finding it...) cheers Jules > From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 22 11:17:27 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <19980422161727.19850.qmail@hotmail.com> Have you considered doing this for acoustic delay lines? Actually, I was thinking about making an emulator that would use .WAV files instead of .T64 or whatever. >too. However, I could generalize and say they were all DOS-based, >written in Pascal or assembler, don't come with source code, have >poor documentation, etc. and I want to roll my own in straight portable C. >I'd rather make it general to handle old S-100 tapes, C-64 tapes, etc. >instead of just hard-coding one flavor. It should be ready in >the year 2010. > Don't bet on it. I have a book that predicted quality software by 1990. Seriously, though, I don't think collectors are in danger of making their hobby worthless by saving too much. I doubt you will see an "extra" C-64 in 2010. They will all be in the hands of collectors or landfills. >rescue old data. Sure, QuickCams are nearly disposable now. Cheap >$1,500 PCs include them these days. Five years from now, they'll be >embedded in cheap monitors. Ten years from now, they'll be in cereal >boxes. Unless the hobby of collecting computer junk is adopted by >Hollywood stars, I humbly suggest that it will be at least *more difficult* >for you to find spares for your original equipment than it will be >for me to find something that could deliver a bitmap by looking >at my punched card. :-) > >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 22 12:56:17 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Split Octal (was RE: 8080 Trainer - more info) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E89A@mail.simconv.com> > > panel monitor used an octal keypad & display, and the octal thinking carried > > over to the assembler package. Heath also used "split octal" in the fashion > > > Actually I think Octal is a dumb idea for 8 or 16 bit processors :-) - A side note...on the IMSAI front panel the address/data switches came in two colors, red and blue, so you could group them for hex or octal inputs. (Obscure trivia, the prototype IMSAI used black switches.) You could tell just by looking at someone's front panel if they preferred hex or octal. Mine is in hex, S/360 Assembler was the first assembly language I learned, and it was in hex. If I recall correctly, Microsoft was an early user of split octal. Soon after the 4K/8K BASIC, MS came up with an editor/debugger package for Assembler that used the split octal notation (fuzzy here, does anyone else remember that package, it was short-lived). Octal proved useful in suprising ways. On Seymour Cray's CDC 6000 series, with a 60 bit word, you might think that a dump using 15 hex digits per word would be the most useful, but in fact that was never done, because the 60 bit word was broken down into 15 and 30 bit instructions (multiple instructions per word, a Cray innovation I believe), easy to see in octal but not a good fit in hex. Plus, the character set normally used was 6 bit, not 7 or 8 bit ANSI. Jack Peacock From MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com Wed Apr 22 12:54:09 1998 From: MPritchard at EnsembleStudios.com (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Kaneko [SMTP:Jeff.Kaneko@ifrsys.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 9:37 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: The PC's Soviet? > > > > > > There were all kinds of small Apple cloners around, with various > Apple > > variety and fruit names ("Granny Smith", "McIntosh", "Pear", etc.). > The > > only obvious differences between most of these machines and an > actual > > Apple ][+ was the lack of the Apple logo, and usually the presence > of > > lower case display (though not necessarily the shift-key mod, which > my > > machine lacks). Some had additional stuff, though, like function > keys and > > slightly differently shaped cases. Or maybe a different colour of > > plastic. > > I fondly remember an issue of BYTE from long ago, that was the April > 1st edition, that had a phoney advertisement in it for a 'Lemon > Computer' that looked suspiciously like an Apple ][ (with a rather > distressed and dissheveled user scratching his head . .). > > Wasn't that Creative Computing?. Back in the late 70's they would do > an "April fools" section of their magazine. One year they printed it > upside down at the back of the magazine so if you flipped it over, it > looked like a different magazine. From manney at lrbcg.com Wed Apr 22 13:04:51 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Coming back out of my hole...need software Message-ID: <01bd6e19$25843120$f328a2ce@laptop> (Cautiously, looking around). Is all the nastiness over, now? Does anyone have the disks for the paint program that came with the Apple Koala pad? Thanks manney@lrbcg.com From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 22 14:06:21 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Coming back out of my hole...need software Message-ID: <002601bd6e21$bdcc4960$4867bcc1@hotze> >(Cautiously, looking around). Is all the nastiness over, now? Been over for weeks. It seemed to merely be 'growing pains.' >Does anyone have the disks for the paint program that came with the Apple >Koala pad? I remember hearing that it should work with any app that supports mice. Glad to have you back. (I was wondering where the heck you were.) Tim D. Hotze From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 22 16:08:19 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? Message-ID: <13349914090.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> What would happen if we made a PC-sized PDP-11 processor using the Alpha technology? (On a single chip, clock it at ~300-400 MHz) As the PDP-11 instruction set is MUCH better than 80x86, would it outrun a PC? Could this be a Pentium Killer? ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 22 16:18:10 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Coming back out of my hole...need software Message-ID: <19980422211810.20973.qmail@hotmail.com> I have C-64 ones. You could attach a gender changer to the koala pad if it has an Apple plug, and use it on a Commodore. >Does anyone have the disks for the paint program that came with the Apple >Koala pad? > >Thanks > >manney@lrbcg.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From peacock at simconv.com Wed Apr 22 16:34:07 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E89D@mail.simconv.com> As the PDP-11 instruction set is MUCH better than 80x86, would it outrun a PC? ------- Hmm, refresh my memory, now what were the PDP-11 instructions to directly address 4GB of memory? I can't seem to recall any 32 bit address registers. Darn. I've really lost it...how did the virtual memory hardware work in a PDP-11? Seriously, if you mean the sorta RISC like instruction set in the 11 is better than the x86 set, then DEC probably would have come up with something like that. Course, with extra silicon, they could have gone to 64 bits, and put more cache onboard, then clock it really fast. Then come up with some catchy marketing name, like Gamma, or Beta, or .... Jack Peacock From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Wed Apr 22 17:31:14 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? Message-ID: <01IW6AOZLVBAAICAK7@cc.usu.edu> > What would happen if we made a PC-sized PDP-11 processor using the Alpha > technology? (On a single chip, clock it at ~300-400 MHz) > As the PDP-11 instruction set is MUCH better than 80x86, would it outrun > a PC? Could this be a Pentium Killer? I doubt it could be a Pentium killer, but I could be wrong. The RISC machines get performance by making it difficult to go to memory; on the PDP-11, it's much to easy to go to memory. Take, for example, the PDP-8. The worst-case instruction on the PDP-8 could require as many as five memory accesses (hmm; I forget which one took five. I only count four for ISZ I Z 10 (fetch 10, write incremented value, fetch from incremented value, write incremented value pointed to by incremented value) and three for JSR I Z 10 (fetch 10, write incremented value, stash return address at location pointed to by incremented value), so I could be wrong) each of which depend on the previous one. You're not going to get hot performance out of that unless you decide that the main memory can be built using a 5-port register file on the chip. I've occasionally wondered about doing a tight hand-coded PDP-11 emulator that fits in the primary cache of an Alpha. If possible, you'd be using the Alpha essentially as a programmable microengine and programming it to be PDP-11. The reason to fit it in the primary cache is because of how the Alpha boots; at reset, it loads its primary cache from an external serial ROM and begins executing it. If you could fit the emulator in the primary cache, you could think of the Alpha+SROM as a PDP-11 microprocessor. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 22 16:29:36 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E89D@mail.simconv.com> Message-ID: <13349917965.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [OK, I flopped.] Thought of it while on a sugar high. In all of 10 minutes. ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 22 16:40:03 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? Message-ID: <19980422214003.12619.qmail@hotmail.com> Sure. And then Apple would show our mascot, Barney, in flames. I like this already! > >What would happen if we made a PC-sized PDP-11 processor using the Alpha >technology? (On a single chip, clock it at ~300-400 MHz) >As the PDP-11 instruction set is MUCH better than 80x86, would it outrun >a PC? Could this be a Pentium Killer? >------- > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 13:50:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info In-Reply-To: <199804220106.VAA14073@armigeron.com> from "Captain Napalm" at Apr 21, 98 09:06:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980422/3843428d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 16:10:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <199804220133.AA12298@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 21, 98 09:33:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1027 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980422/630fde8f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 17:01:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: <9804221610.ZM14593@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 22, 98 03:10:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980422/012ea89d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 17:08:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 help needed In-Reply-To: <9803228932.AA893286632@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Apr 22, 98 04:08:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1828 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980422/fc30c5d6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 16:15:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: <199804220311.AA04998@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 21, 98 11:11:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1145 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980422/95e115f7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 16:30:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Schematics sites? In-Reply-To: <199804221259.AA09958@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 22, 98 08:59:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 842 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980422/7bad1e47/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Wed Apr 22 18:06:19 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? Message-ID: <19980422230619.28405.qmail@hotmail.com> But, since Alphas must share SOMETHING in common with the PDP-11, wouldn't it be possible to write a normal program for the Alpha, running under NT or Linux, that would give PDP emulation at P-II-like performance? Of course, I'm assuming that some of the PDP instructions can go unchanged directly into the Alpha. Also, I would guess that a G3 with an emulator could outperform the slower pentiums. But, then again, why not emulate a Whirlwind or a Mark I for the same? It would be much easier. I don't really see how an emulated PDP-11 outper- forming a pentium would mean anything at all. Now, making a VAX that would do that is a bit more interesting, though probably already done. VAX is much more useful these days than PDP-11. More on this subject: I have long thought that some computers that are now mostly PD, like the C-64, should be rebuilt in kit form and sold to kids for $20 each. Now THAT would be nice. Oh, and make them make their own kernel, and hold a contest for the best one. The winner gets an emulated PDP-11. I really must stop eating sugar as well. >incremented value) and three for JSR I Z 10 (fetch 10, write incremented >value, stash return address at location pointed to by incremented value), >so I could be wrong) each of which depend on the previous one. You're not >going to get hot performance out of that unless you decide that the main >memory can be built using a 5-port register file on the chip. > >I've occasionally wondered about doing a tight hand-coded PDP-11 emulator that >fits in the primary cache of an Alpha. If possible, you'd be using the Alpha >essentially as a programmable microengine and programming it to be PDP-11. >The reason to fit it in the primary cache is because of how the Alpha boots; >at reset, it loads its primary cache from an external serial ROM and begins >executing it. If you could fit the emulator in the primary cache, you could >think of the Alpha+SROM as a PDP-11 microprocessor. > >Roger Ivie >ivie@cc.usu.edu > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 22 18:12:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 help needed Message-ID: <199804222312.AA20152@world.std.com> After your done laughing remember this... At the time the VAX was new in the market the PDP-11 group took most of their standard 11/70 peices and cooked up the 11/74 which was a 4cpu SMP 11/70 and could eat vaxen(11/780) for snacks. That was it's demise... there were only four working 11/74s built before that was crushed. <>As the PDP-11 instruction set is MUCH better than 80x86, would it a PC? Could this be a Pentium Killer? as it was in 1982-3 the PCversion of the PDP-11 aka PRO350 could eat the XT and turbo XT for a snack. When the AT came around DEC popped out the pro380 with the J-11 cpu...gulp, burp! ATs are tasty. Competing against the mostly 16bit 8088/6 and the 286 the PDP11 was out front. To match a 16bit cpu against a 32bitter... you must be inhaling! Allison From spc at armigeron.com Wed Apr 22 18:02:58 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: 8080 Trainer - more info In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 22, 98 07:50:20 pm Message-ID: <199804222302.TAA15934@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > But oddly enough, if you look at the 8080 instruction set through octal > > eyes, it makes sense. Heck, the 8086 instruction set as see through octal > > I'd not thought of it before, but you're right.. Things like the > register-register MOV instruction are easy in octal... It did surprise me when I first realized it. I even made up opcode maps (2D tables with all the opcodes mapped into the appropriate place) using four 8x8 tables and it's a lot cleaner than the single 16x16 table I made. I forgot where I got the idea to view the 8086 code through octal, but I think I may have gotten the idea from a book on the 8080 or Z80. > > > Did any machine languages ever write the opcodes like that, I wonder? > > > > No, but for some machines it would make sense (say, for the 68k, where > > most instuctions follow a 4:3:3:3:3 format) > > Now that wouldn't look too bad in octal, would it ? For most of the instructions it wouldn't be bad. But for the branch instructions it would be (which are 4:4:8 format). -spc (More used to hex than octal though ... ) From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 22 18:12:51 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? In-Reply-To: <19980422230619.28405.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <13349936761.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Make your own monitor and hold a...] I'm already making my own monitor for the 11/83. I'll release it when the code isn't so embarassing. Why do you think I asked for the RL02 info... ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 16:43:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980422100731.00bdde80@pc> from "John Foust" at Apr 22, 98 10:07:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3248 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980422/dd1db6ee/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Wed Apr 22 18:16:54 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? In-Reply-To: <13349914090.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 22, 98 02:08:19 pm Message-ID: <199804222316.TAA15970@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Daniel A. Seagraves once stated: > > What would happen if we made a PC-sized PDP-11 processor using the Alpha > technology? (On a single chip, clock it at ~300-400 MHz) It would be interesting. The smaller instruction set would mean you have enough silicone left over to implement internal cache, increasing performance, and it would probably be bug free (or nearly so) since the architecture is old enough to have most of the bugs worked out (I would guess). But I'm not sure what word size the PDP-11 was. If it's 16 bit then most modern software probably wouldn't port that well to it, and if the word size isn't a multiple of 8, then interfacing memory might be a bit of a problem. Then again, I'm a software guy anyway ... > As the PDP-11 instruction set is MUCH better than 80x86, would it outrun > a PC? Could this be a Pentium Killer? There are plenty of architectures out there with a much better instruction set than the 80x86 (oh, the 68k, VAX, ARM, MIPS, PPC and Alpha come to mind) but the 80x86 is still in use for two reasons: existing code base and it's rare for programing to be written in assembly anymore (I'm talking about mainstream stuff). Typically, there are four ways to improve speed in software: better algorithms (which are independant of language used to implement them generally and usually give the best improvement), inline commonly used routines (for this to work, they typically have to be small and used very frequently - I was able to cut the runtime in half of some C code by doing this), faster hardware (and you can be pretty sure that computers twice as fast as the current ones will be out within a year, two tops) or the critical portions in assembly (usually one one or two routines, never more than half a dozen in my experience. Doom was done this way - all in C except for two routines). In three of the cases, this requires finding the routines that are executed most often, or consume the most time and adjusting those routines, although the easist thing is the one case not covered by this - new hardware. -spc (Writing portable code is tricky ... ) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 22 18:38:25 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 help needed In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: Re[2]: PDP 11/23 help needed" (Apr 22, 19:12) References: <199804222312.AA20152@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9804230038.ZM15044@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 22, 19:12, Allison J Parent wrote: > LSI-11/03 cpu and box. The backplane was wired for only 16bit addesses. > Also that particular CPU put some of the microcode signals on what would > have ben the A16-21 lines. Nitpick: Actually, it's wired for 18-bit (it has to be, for parity), and the extra microcode signals are only on the A18-21 lines. You can have fun with General Robotics backplanes/PSUs. Some of these put 24V AC on the lines normaly used for A20 and A21. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 22 18:35:45 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Addition" (Apr 22, 23:01) References: Message-ID: <9804230035.ZM15040@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 22, 23:01, Tony Duell wrote: > > I thought of that too. Then you might be able to do it with an AOI package, > > Oh, AOIs are fun, but not general enough for this... You tend to need more than one small package to anything very useful > > but I'd use a 156, which is a demultiplexer/decoder but with open-collector > > outputs, which I'd wire-AND. > > Good guess. What you need is a fixed AND matrix to get all the possible > product terms and then a programmable OR matrix to combine the right ones > to form the desired output. > > That's _exactly_ what a PROM is, of course. > > It's also what a multiplexer is. A neat solution. Of course, anything you can do with minterms can also be done with maxterms. > What worries me is that the above seems not the taught any more. And > people don't seem to have grown up fiddling with TTL chips (or > equivalent). Here, 1st Year CompScis do a series of practical problem exercises with TTL, one of which ends up building a multiplexer from basic gates. The next (or maybe next but one) involves something that's complex to do with normal minterm techniques, and often involves using a multiplexer as a building block. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From spc at armigeron.com Wed Apr 22 18:30:53 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? In-Reply-To: <19980422230619.28405.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Apr 22, 98 04:06:19 pm Message-ID: <199804222330.TAA15990@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Max Eskin once stated: > > But, since Alphas must share SOMETHING in common with the PDP-11, I think the PDP-11 has only three things in common with the Alpha: D E C Other than that ... 8-) > wouldn't it be possible to write a normal program for the Alpha, > running under NT or Linux, that would give PDP emulation at P-II-like > performance? If the PDP-11 is anything like the VAX in terms of instruction space, it might be possible. The only hitch is unaligned reads/writes to memory (I'm not sure if the Alpha supports this. If not, that right there is a critical performance hit). I'd probably start in C (so that it could be ported to other systems) and then find the hot spots and recode those in assembly 8-) > Now, making a VAX that would do that is a bit more interesting, though > probably already done. VAX is much more useful these days than PDP-11. I don't think so. The current trend in CPU design in away from complex instruction sets (which is something the VAX is) and more towards simplified instructions sets with same sized instructions. And the cutting edge is multiple instructions per word (which only proves we've come around again to the CDC series) > More on this subject: I have long thought that some computers that > are now mostly PD, like the C-64, should be rebuilt in kit form and > sold to kids for $20 each. Now THAT would be nice. Oh, and make them > make their own kernel, and hold a contest for the best one. The > winner gets an emulated PDP-11. Check bask issues of Byte (pre '88 - your local library or university library might have them). Full schematics for a slew of computers (mostly from Steve Ciarcia) and in the Sep/Oct '85 issues the schematic for a CPU. Ah, if only I had the time and equipment ... -spc (Have compiler, will code ... ) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 22 18:57:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: <9804230035.ZM15040@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 22, 98 11:35:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980423/44b43fc0/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 22 19:01:36 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? Message-ID: <199804230001.AA26313@world.std.com> fits in the primary cache of an Alpha. If possible, you'd be using the essentially as a programmable microengine and programming it to be The reason to fit it in the primary cache is because of how the Alpha from "Captain Napalm" at Apr 22, 98 07:02:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1857 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980423/1bee92c1/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 22 19:22:02 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? Message-ID: <199804230022.AA10846@world.std.com> < I think the PDP-11 has only three things in common with the Alpha: < < D E C ROTFL-TB!!! Sorta like my earlier answer about x86 VS PDP-11... < If the PDP-11 is anything like the VAX in terms of instruction space, i Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980422195856.006c9a04@pop3.concentric.net> I picked up a digital Micro PDP-11 model 11C23-F in a tower case with nothing else for $5 yesterday. Have not tried to fire it up yet. John At 12:16 AM 4/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Well, folks, it looks like I lied in my recent post about not having >a PDP-11. > >Actually, I _do_ have one. I simply forgot that I had, stashed >away, an 11/23 CPU and some boards ("common as houseflies" was the >term Allison used? :> ) Since it was not in a rack, and since >the pieces have never been assembled, and since I have no disks for >it, I pretty much forgot about it, and I've never had it working. > >But it appears I have a fairly nice, complete system, board-wise. > >Here's what I have: > >----- >Chassis: DBA11-N >Cards: >1. M8186 (KDF11-AA) 11/23 CPU with KTF11-AA (MMU), sockets for FP11 >2. M8047-CA (MXV11-AC) 16-Kword RAM, 2 async EIA SLU, w/ 2 24-pin ROMs >3. M8047-CA (MXV11-AC) 16-Kword RAM, 2 async EIA SLU, sockets for ROMs >4. M8044-DB (MSV11-DD) 32-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM >5. M8044-DC (MSV11-DD) 32-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM >6. M7269 (RKV11) RK05 controller >7. Data Systems Design 818836-01 REV B -- RX01, RX02, or RX50 controller?? > (25-pin ribbon-cable connector) >----- > >So, in order to get this whole thing working again, I have a >WHOLE SLEW of questions to ask folks, in no particular order. >Here goes. > >1) The M8047-CA boards need to be wire-wrapped to assign their > address vectors -- they're combination MOS RAM and Async EIA, > and I have no docs for them. Can anyone guide me to some info, > or tell me how to jumper one of them to be console serial > port, and the other to be next in line on the bus? > The wire-wrap pins have absolutely no markings on them, not > even any single-letter or number labels, so this one could > require ASCII-art to describe :) > >2) Same as above, but for the M8044-DB boards. I could put one > of these in with the M8047's to get a full 64Kword of RAM, yes? > Does anyone know what the DIP-switch settings for these boards > are? > >3) I'd love to have the RK05 controller in there, in the hopes > that someday I'll have an RK05 to play with. Just like the > above... How do I jumper it, and where (physically) in the > Bus should I put it? > >4) Actually, that raises a good question. All of these boards > are single-height (1/2 the width of the Q-bus backplane). > I know there is some special physical layout the boards should > use when they populate the backplane, but what is it? > My best (probably wrong) guess right now is: > CPU in row 1, slot 1 (is that left or right?), > M8047's in row 2, slots 1 and 2, > M8044 in row 3, slot 1, > M7269 in row 4, slot 1, DSD controller in row 4, slot 2. > > Does that make any sense? Should the CPU only live in the > first row, not RAM? I seem to remember something like this > from the darkest depths of my mind, but I don't remember > for sure. > >5) OK, simple question, one I've wondered about but never bothered > getting answered because I felt like a complete idiot moron > asking it: Does the QBUS need to be terminated by a special > card in any way, in order to work? > >6) What's the pin-out on the M8047 EIA ports? They're 9-pin Berg > connectors, and I need to build a cable for them to connect > either to 9-pin or 25-pin PC-style serial in order to set up > any kind of console terminal. > >7) Anyone know what the Data Systems Design board is? It has > "RX" stensiled onto the board near the jumper block, among > other things like "BOOT", so I assume it's some sort of RX01 > or RX50 controller or some such. > >WHEW, that's _too_ many questions. Anyone who can tackle one of them >gets my respect, and you may award yourself one cookie. > >I'd like to piece this system together and get it working to the >point where I can play with it and at least fiddle with the monitor >again, playing with Octal. And I'd dearly love to put it in a >proper DEC desk-side rack with an RK05, but that comes later... > >Thanks much, > >-Seth > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 22 20:23:45 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Addition In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Addition" (Apr 23, 0:57) References: Message-ID: <9804230223.ZM15130@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 23, 0:57, Tony Duell wrote: > Indeed. What's worrying is how few people spotted it :-) > > When I started in computing all those years ago, I was told 'Don't worry > about the CPU. It's just a pile of gates and flip-flops like the one's you're > used to'. Now, admittedly you don't generally see the schematics of a > microprocesor (although I have understood minis to gate level), but > there's nothing magic about a CPU. Agreed. We don't have much on the innards of CPUs at gate level but there's a 1st year course on basic architectures (lots of PDP-11 and -10, IBM, and M68K stuff), a 2nd year course that teaches about bigger building blocks (pipelines, ALUs, register banks, cache, etc), and third year stuff on different architectures (mostly parallel architectures). Everybody has to do the basic electronic logic course which runs all year in 1st year. > I hate to say this, but you can't learn this in a couple of practicals. > Just as you can't learn programming that way. You have to _play_ - build > circuits, write programs - and keep on at it.. True, but a lot of people just aren't interested. Nevertheless, our first year course starts with basic gates and has something like 18 or 20 practical exercises, from investigating glitches in a SPICE model of a NAND gate, to a traffic light sequencer, a model RAM, a digital die using a PAL, and a few other things I've forgotten. And everybody has to do it, not just the hardware buffs. One of the most popular courses is the 2nd-year follow-up, in which students are given a problem to solve involving breadboarding a small Z80 system (CPU/ROM/RAM/LCD/glue + whatever analogue stuff is required). The problem is different every year, and there's no formal tuition. You can ask the lecturer or demonstrators any questions you like, and you'll get the answers, but you have to learn yourself. You don't get taught (in the conventional way). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Apr 22 21:17:36 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980422131508.47d75e24@ricochet.net> Okay, I'm way behind, but... At 01:46 PM 4/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >As it is the plant that cranked out most of the red >army's tubes is still in use as a commercial tube plant, named SovTek. They do >make a hell of a tube but I don't think it's of much use for a PC. Yes, SovTek still makes a lot of tubes, and they're available here in teh US if you really want to build yourself a Tube-based computer. However, most people are using them music amplifiers these days. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Apr 22 21:17:43 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Warez?? Was: Re: James Willings still up? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980422155731.4827effe@ricochet.net> At 05:56 PM 4/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >I think I have other text convertors stashed that change a text file into "jive", >"valley girl" and yet another I can't think of right now for some reason. It might There is also chef-erizer (or something like that) that converts text into "swedish" a la the Swedish Chef from the Muppets. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Apr 22 21:17:50 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980422163323.47d79b72@ricochet.net> At 11:56 AM 4/19/98 +0100, you wrote: >this is odd - we got exactly the same message chez communa. we're just >wondering which address list they used, for sam's name to be on it as >well as ours... Well, you're both on the ClassicCmp list, which is echoed to a web site... And yes, there are spambots that comb web pages looking for e-mail addresses. I know, because I have gotten Spam on my alphapager, and I *know* I've never posted to a usenet newsgroup from my pager. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 22 21:26:27 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Addition Message-ID: <199804230226.AA06711@world.std.com> <> used to'. Now, admittedly you don't generally see the schematics of a <> microprocesor (although I have understood minis to gate level), but <> there's nothing magic about a CPU. I have and they are really strange as many use dynamic storage cells for registers and the like. I did my EE training in the early 70s and computer meant the DEC-10, PDP-8 or the S370s behind glass. I was doing mostly analog stuff in the labs till I started squawking. They had be blinking neon lights and to pay tuition I was designing 4cx250 pushpull amps at 460mhz and my own UHF frequency counter. Before I'd left that I was doing 8008 designs and they were talking sequential logic. To this day my favorite two programming languages are solder and assembler. Allison From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 22 21:50:41 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: Another RSX good one,,, Message-ID: <13349976417.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> OK, Now I can make myself an rsx11m.sys, VMR is, BOOt it, but when I say SAV, it runs for awhile, types "CAN'T FIND HOME BLOCK", and halts. It also complains about having to reduce partitions to the soze of the common area (?), and the TT: driver is bigger than 4K. What've I done? I just switched DY and DL in the sysvmr.cmd file, and removed DU (The driver is corrupted...) ------- From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 23 03:39:18 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:29 2005 Subject: More portables In-Reply-To: <13349976417.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: I added some modern-yet-collectible portables to my collection in the last week: * A Data General WalkAbout portable terminal. Anybody seen one of these before? No more VT100's for me! This thing weighs less than 4 lbs, emulates a couple of terminals, and has 64K of RAM to support an utterly useless "notepad" app. I'd like to be able to associate a date with this thing -- I'm guessing late 80's. * A Motorola Marco. Take one radio modem, one newton, a hefty NiCd, and blend. A completely obsolete toy from 1994. * You prefer Magic Cap, you say? OK, one Motorola Envoy. * And my favorite, yet it was orphaned by Apple just a month ago: an eMate 300. I'm now convinced that all computers should be translucent green. (BTW, this was a great bargain. It's a little-known secret that CompUSA is blowing these things out at $299 and including a free Toshiba PDR-2 digital camera in the deal (until tomorrow).) * And I've finally got a PX-8 on it's way to me! Now I only need an NEC 8500 to complete my CP/M laptop collection (talk to me if you want to trade yours in for an upgrade). -- Doug From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 23 05:13:28 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Web Page Updated Message-ID: I've added some new sections to the Vintage Computer Festival Web Page: o The Recent Acquisitions Report lists the latest additions to the VCF Archives o You can now receive automatic notification via e-mail whenever a new VCF announcement is made...be automatically notified when new speakers and exhibitors are added to the event as well as when the web page is updated Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Apr 23 08:14:22 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads Message-ID: <9803238933.AA893362593@compsci.powertech.co.uk> I haven't got time to type loads of messages. These are in a roughly random order. First, thanks to Pete, Allison and others for explaining the PDP11-23 stuff. I stand corrected, I suppose. Tony Duell wrote: > BTW, does anyone know the position on reverse-engineered schematics? Who > owns the copyright on those? The original company, the person/company > who drew them out, what? Or are they just plain illegal (I doubt the > latter, as I've seen them advertised as such for devices where original > manufacturer's manuals are not available). AFAIK, you both do. You own the copyright in the diagram you've drawn out, and the original designer/manufacturer owns the copyright in the circuit it represents. So if I want to copy it I need permission both from you and from the designer. (It's like if I want to photocopy a book I need permission from both the author and the publisher.) Allison Parent wrote: > Competing against the mostly 16bit 8088/6 and the 286 the PDP11 was out > front. To match a 16bit cpu against a 32bitter... you must be inhaling! A long running discussion. Allison, I don't understand how you can say that the PDP11, with its very simple instruction set, is _more_ CISC than (say) the 80286, with which you compare it here. To my mind the only really CISC feature of the PDP11 is the MARK instruction. I fear we may be talking at cross purposes, and may mean different things by RISC and CISC - could you give some specific examples, please? For those who think a souped up PDP11 could be a pentium killer, bear in mind that there was a 32 bit PDP11. I don't mean the VAX, and I don't mean the PDP11-68: I mean the Motorola 68000. AFAICT the two architectures are very, very similar. Is it a Pentium killer? The 68070 might have been but it's rather faded away now... Just my half groat's worth again! (Yes, Tony, half a groat == tuppence == two pence == two pennies = (in some sense) $0.02, which seems to be the value most people set on their opinions here. About right in most cases (no offence intended)) Philip. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Apr 23 07:52:31 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: More RSX weirdness... Message-ID: <13350085976.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Last night I stared at the halted 83 for a while. RSX-11M V4.1 BL35C 256.K MAPPED SAV -- Cannot find home block Then it smacked me like a ton of bricks: The high 4K of a PDP-11 is I/O space! I had 252K or RAM! So, I rebuilt RSX11M.SYS that way. It worked. I was able to hardware-boot the RL02. So, I reinstalled my RQDX3, loaded RT-11, said COPY DL0:/device RSX11M.DSK/file to make an image, Kermitted it to the PC (2:30 transfer time!) and loaded it into the emulator. Now, with the Supnik emulator set for 2M or RAM (Just like the 83...), I'm staring at the same screen, while booting. SAV can't find the home block. Same thing for E-11. But everything works just fine from the hardware. Oh, and it says most of the TTs and the DU don't exist while booting. Which makes sense, they don't... ------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 23 08:08:00 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Another RSX good one,,, In-Reply-To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" "Another RSX good one,,," (Apr 22, 19:50) References: <13349976417.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <9804231408.ZM21104@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 22, 19:50, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Subject: Another RSX good one,,, > OK, Now I can make myself an rsx11m.sys, VMR is, BOOt it, but when I say > SAV, it runs for awhile, types "CAN'T FIND HOME BLOCK", and halts. Hmmmm... What are you trying to SAV this onto? The message means just what it says. Sounds like you have an unformatted disk, or a disk error, which might be due to corruption, or a hardware fault, or the disk isn't online and writable, or you mistyped the disk specifier. What was the prompt you got just before you typed SAV? > It also complains about having to reduce partitions to the soze of the > common area (?), "VMR -- Partition reduced to executive common size", yes? This is just for information. It's telling you that VMR has just installed an executive common block in the appropriate partition, and eliminated some unused space at the top of the partition. Executive is RSX-speak for what unix buffs call the kernel, and what some other OSs refer to as the monitor. A common block is a shared area, ie one that's not duplicated for multiple instantiations of . > and the TT: driver is bigger than 4K. That's just informative, not normally a problem. The RSX TT: driver is quite big if it has many options enabled, and this is a common message. > What've I done? I just switched DY and DL in the sysvmr.cmd file, > and removed DU (The driver is corrupted...) > ------- -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 23 08:33:40 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads Message-ID: <199804231333.AA09441@world.std.com> Competing against the mostly 16bit 8088/6 and the 286 the PDP11 was out <> front. To match a 16bit cpu against a 32bitter... you must be inhaling < "More RSX weirdness..." (Apr 23, 5:52) References: <13350085976.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <9804231421.ZM21151@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 23, 5:52, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Subject: More RSX weirdness... > Last night I stared at the halted 83 for a while. > RSX-11M V4.1 BL35C 256.K MAPPED > SAV -- Cannot find home block > > Then it smacked me like a ton of bricks: The high 4K of a PDP-11 is I/O space! > I had 252K or RAM! So, I rebuilt RSX11M.SYS that way. It worked. > I was able to hardware-boot the RL02. > So, I reinstalled my RQDX3, loaded RT-11, said COPY DL0:/device RSX11M.DSK/file > to make an image, Kermitted it to the PC (2:30 transfer time!) and loaded it > into the emulator. Now, with the Supnik emulator set for 2M or RAM (Just like > the 83...), I'm staring at the same screen, while booting. SAV can't find > the home block. Same thing for E-11. But everything works just fine from > the hardware. Well, I'm at a loss as far as the emulators are concerned. I've used them precisely once, and that was only with RT-11. I'm glad you got the rest working, though, and I hope my imperfect memories helped rather than confused. > Oh, and it says most of the TTs and the DU don't exist while > booting. Which makes sense, they don't... That might mean you can't use them at all. For some devices, if RSX can't find the hardware during the boot, it disables the driver. There may be some clever way to persuade it to re-enable them if you need to, but I don't know. So I hope you mean that those devices really aren't physically present! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 23 08:45:50 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk "Replies to various threads" (Apr 23, 13:14) References: <9803238933.AA893362593@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <9804231445.ZM21163@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 23, 13:14, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > First, thanks to Pete, Allison and others for explaining the PDP11-23 > stuff. I stand corrected, I suppose. I just like to show off :-) > A long running discussion. Allison, I don't understand how you can say > that the PDP11, with its very simple instruction set, is _more_ CISC > than (say) the 80286, with which you compare it here. To my mind the > only really CISC feature of the PDP11 is the MARK instruction. I fear > we may be talking at cross purposes, and may mean different things by > RISC and CISC - could you give some specific examples, please? I know that was directed at Allison, but I'd say that key features of RISC architectures include large numbers of general registers, one-instruction-per-cycle, and hardware decode rather than microcode, not just the obvious minimised instruction set. The PDP-11 architecture has only 7 GP registers (since you can't really use the PC for just anything) but that's good for the times, and they really are interchangable, so I'd be willing to argue that it wins on that. It loses on the one-instruction-per-cycle, though. Instructions take vastly different amounts of time to execute, depending on what they are, and they're all several cycles long. Just think about the FP instructions, or the Commercial Instruction Set. That's not the most CISC thing you've ever seen? :-) At a more mundane level, the additions of instructions like ASH is pretty CISC -- in fact the whole idea of extending the instruction set by altering or adding to microcode is the essence of CISC, and the antithesis of a Reduced Instruction Set Computer. And of course it loses on the microcode vs hardware decode. > For those who think a souped up PDP11 could be a pentium killer, bear in > mind that there was a 32 bit PDP11. I don't mean the VAX, and I don't > mean the PDP11-68: I mean the Motorola 68000. AFAICT the two > architectures are very, very similar. Is it a Pentium killer? The > 68070 might have been but it's rather faded away now... Similar, but in many ways quite different. I just had this argument (from a somewhat different point of view) on another mailing list. The 68K is much more like a PDP-11 than anything else, but it has a lot of clutter added. That's my third of a tanner. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 23 09:18:45 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980423091845.00bf53a0@pc> Tony Duell wrote: >The problem with solutions like the quickcam is that, if you're not >careful, in 10 years time the new version will not work with the hardware >or OS that you've chosen to run Just to flog the horse, my point was that my C code will deal with a bitmap. It doesn't care which technology produces the bitmap: today's QuickCam, tomorrow's Java Ring, 2010's 3D scanner. A friend of mine has a joke that goes something like "In ten years we'll have a wrist computer with the horsepower of today's $5,000 workstation, voice recognition, holographic memory, etc. but there will still be an obscure way to get back to the C: prompt." - John Jefferson Computer Museum From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 23 09:35:30 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads Message-ID: <199804231435.AA09159@world.std.com> Message-ID: <353F5078.1F87@wenet.net> I believe that the Vintage Computer Festival should become a 501(c)3 non-profit educational organization. Sam can still get paid for his services and reimbursed for his expenses. However, VCF can then receive the donations and corporate sponsorships that Perham and CHAC enjoy. Please let Sam know your thoughts on this matter Edwin "Walking Trouble" Vivian El-Kareh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Apr 23 11:30:46 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? Message-ID: <01IW7COSEPC2ADEYRT@cc.usu.edu> > Competing against the mostly 16bit 8088/6 and the 286 the PDP11 was out > front. To match a 16bit cpu against a 32bitter... you must be inhaling! FWIW, it's been my experience that on problems small enough to be tackled by the J-11, an 18MHz J-11 eats the VAX-11/780 for lunch. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Apr 23 05:35:55 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Honeywell Bull available in Australia Message-ID: <199804231436.JAA11564@trailingedge.com> I received this email, if any one in Australia is interested contact the party below, not me. -------------------- Date sent: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:59:51 +1000 From: Alex Roche Organization: Amfac Pty Ltd Subject: Honeywell Bull Hi, I have a Honeywell Bull X-Superstream. Know any one in Sydney Australia (where I am) or elsewhere who wants to buy one for a song? Alex Roche ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Apr 23 11:53:12 1998 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? Message-ID: <01IW7D9OMJ9OADEYRT@cc.usu.edu> ><>fits in the primary cache of an Alpha. If possible, you'd be using the ><>essentially as a programmable microengine and programming it to be ><>The reason to fit it in the primary cache is because of how the Alpha > >Huh? a PDP11 emulator for alpha would be written as PAL to get the best >results. Caching it is pointless as it's still a 16bit machine and >would still flog itself to death trying to manage a data file greater >than fits in ram (4mb max on PDP11 and some of that would be code!). You misunderstand. I'm not talking about caching any PDP-11 code or data, just the Alpha code which executes the emulator. Any memory fetch which fetches Alpha code is overhead; a real PDP-11 wouldn't have to make that memory fetch. If you can build a PDP-11 emulator small enough to fit in the primary cache, all of your memory fetches can be payload. It wouldn't really be PAL code because it would be executing in the chip's boot environment; loaded from SROM into primary cache and staying there. It owuld have a lot of the characteristics of PALcode; the extra registers which Palcode depends upon would be visible, the MMU would be off, etc., but it wouldn't really be PALcode because it wouldn't be called by a PAL trap. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 23 11:05:26 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? Message-ID: <199804231605.AA04076@world.std.com> I'm sure this is not even an original thought, but the Year 2000 presents a special opportunity for collectors like us. Think of all the companies who are right now weighing whether or not those old mainframes that have been chugging away in their data centers for years, perhaps even decades, are worth one more upgrade to support 4-digit years or whether it would make more sense to finally take the painful route of scrapping their old iron and moving on to PCs or AS400s or whatnot. I predict a tremendous flood of old mainframe and mini hardware coming to market like so many cattle which will only peak on December 31, 1999. This is a once in a millennium opportunity! So make sure you've got plenty of space and plenty of petty cash to throw around cuz its gonna be easy pickins. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Apr 23 11:42:33 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Joke about Wrist Computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980423091845.00bf53a0@pc> Message-ID: <199804231624.LAA15772@onyx.southwind.net> > A friend of mine has a joke that goes something like "In ten years > we'll have a wrist computer with the horsepower of today's $5,000 > workstation, voice recognition, holographic memory, etc. but there > will still be an obscure way to get back to the C: prompt." Yeah, there will be a way to get back to the prompt allright-- via the GPF mechanism in Windoze '08! (Just reboot -- Don't worry, be happy). Jeff > > - John > Jefferson Computer Museum > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Apr 23 12:29:31 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads Message-ID: <9803238933.AA893377890@compsci.powertech.co.uk> [PDP11 risc or cisc] Pete Turnbull: > I know that was directed at Allison, but I'd say that key features of RISC > architectures include large numbers of general registers, > one-instruction-per-cycle, and hardware decode rather than microcode, not > just the obvious minimised instruction set. > > The PDP-11 architecture has only 7 GP registers (since you can't really use > the PC for just anything) but that's good for the times, and they really > are interchangable, so I'd be willing to argue that it wins on that. I'm glad somebody agrees with me on that! IMHO the concept of a GP register is a RISC sort of thing. And, Allison, if you think RISC should be register-rich, I claim the PDP11 was for its date, and certainly was compared to micros of the 1970s. > It loses on the one-instruction-per-cycle, though. Instructions take vastly > different amounts of time to execute, depending on what they are, and > they're all several cycles long. Just think about the FP instructions, or Yeeeeesss... I don't like the "one instruction per cycle" definition of RISC - for a start, what is a cycle? I prefer to think of RISC as an "every cycle is sacred" philosophy - you don't waste cycles. I'd try to get _memory cycles_ as often as the hardware permits them - on the 6502, for example, one per cycle (and it almost manages it!), on 8080/Z80/PDP one every two or three cycles - but I wouldn't make them all instruction fetches! > the Commercial Instruction Set. That's not the most CISC thing you've ever > seen? :-) At a more mundane level, the additions of instructions like ASH Despite having a 11/44, I have never seen a Commercial instruction Set :-) > is pretty CISC -- in fact the whole idea of extending the instruction set by > altering or adding to microcode is the essence of CISC, and the antithesis > of a Reduced Instruction Set Computer. Agreed. Later PDPs were more CISC, and this reached its maximum in the Vax. But the basic architecture is IMHO a risc one - very simple and very powerful. > And of course it loses on the microcode vs hardware decode. Except the early ones. Allison, are you sure it was the 11/05? I claim it was the 11/15 (I have an 05). However I will concede that 05 may have at one time been a name for an 11/20 variant. > Similar, but in many ways quite different. I just had this argument (from > a somewhat different point of view) on another mailing list. The 68K is > much more like a PDP-11 than anything else, but it has a lot of clutter > added. Fair enough. > That's my third of a tanner. :-) Philip. PS I shall try and refrain from further comment on this issue - I don't want to be the one who started a RISC versus CISC flame war! From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Apr 23 12:41:52 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: More portables In-Reply-To: References: <13349976417.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >* And my favorite, yet it was orphaned by Apple just a month ago: an >eMate 300. I'm now convinced that all computers should be translucent >green. (BTW, this was a great bargain. It's a little-known secret that >CompUSA is blowing these things out at $299 and including a free Toshiba >PDR-2 digital camera in the deal (until tomorrow).) You sure when it ends? Maybe it was yesterday... I called both locations here in PDX, one didn't have any left, and the other had 6 left at the normal $799 price. Oh well... Maybe I'll head over there just in case they were wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 23 13:33:28 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads Message-ID: <199804231833.AA03195@world.std.com> <> The PDP-11 architecture has only 7 GP registers (since you can't really <> the PC for just anything) but that's good for the times, and they reall <> are interchangable, so I'd be willing to argue that it wins on that. < Message-ID: Ask them to check with the Santa Clara, CA store. The price at their floor display was $299 even though their inventory system still listed it at $799. The camera deal supposedly ends the 24th, but there was no indication that the eMate price drop was temporary. (I think your local CompUSA should match the Santa Clara price, and I'd expect all Newton-related prices to drop like rocks pretty soon anyway.) -- Doug On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, John Rollins wrote: > >* And my favorite, yet it was orphaned by Apple just a month ago: an > >eMate 300. I'm now convinced that all computers should be translucent > >green. (BTW, this was a great bargain. It's a little-known secret that > >CompUSA is blowing these things out at $299 and including a free Toshiba > >PDR-2 digital camera in the deal (until tomorrow).) > You sure when it ends? Maybe it was yesterday... I called both locations > here in PDX, one didn't have any left, and the other had 6 left at the > normal $799 price. Oh well... Maybe I'll head over there just in case they > were wrong. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY > | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > From spc at armigeron.com Thu Apr 23 13:29:06 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: <9803238933.AA893377890@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Apr 23, 98 05:29:31 pm Message-ID: <199804231829.OAA17260@armigeron.com> Just in case anyone doesn't know, the expansions of CISC and RISC are: CISC - Complex Instruction Set Computer (or CPU) RISC - Reduced Instruction Set Computer (or CPU) RISC (as a separate concept) came about when it was noticed that most compilers generally didn't use all the instructions or addressing modes that a CPU could support, since supporting those oddball instructions and/or addressing modes meant that the compiler had to be more complex which wasn't always possible (due to size constraints, programmer ability, or time constraints). Typical compilers tended to use the simpler instructions (MOV/LD/ST being the most commonly used ones, followed by the ALU ops) and either reg-reg or reg-memory (if applicable) addressing modes. It was felt that making the instruction set compiler friendly (simple instructions, simple addressing modes) and concentrating on making it fast would more than make up for the loss of the more esoteric opcodes and addressing modes. The first commercially availble RISC system (from IBM no less!) had variable length instructions, but they were simple and fast (well, fast for the time and for IBM). Other research lead to making the instructions the same size, thus the execution of an instruction could be deterministically known and making pipelining easier to do (I wonder how much Intel has spent on pipelining the 80x86 line). Since the number of addressing modes was limited, but since the CPU itself was simpler and smaller than a comparible CISC one, more space could be set aside for registers, again to make up speed. It really comes down do shoving the complexity elsewhere. Today's RISC chips are very complex in terms of caching, pipelining, multiple execution units, branch predictions, delay slots and what not and the pendulum is slowing coming back around to CISC like ideas, now that we understand compiler technology better and have better tools to construct such beasts. It was thus said that the Great Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk once stated: > Pete Turnbull: > > > The PDP-11 architecture has only 7 GP registers (since you can't really use > > the PC for just anything) but that's good for the times, and they really > > are interchangable, so I'd be willing to argue that it wins on that. > > I'm glad somebody agrees with me on that! IMHO the concept of a GP > register is a RISC sort of thing. And, Allison, if you think RISC > should be register-rich, I claim the PDP11 was for its date, and > certainly was compared to micros of the 1970s. And given the right definition of RISC, even the 6502 could qualify. > I don't like the "one instruction per cycle" definition of RISC - for a start, > what is a cycle? I prefer to think of RISC as an "every cycle is sacred" > philosophy - you don't waste cycles. I'd try to get _memory cycles_ as often > as the hardware permits them - on the 6502, for example, one per cycle (and it > almost manages it!), on 8080/Z80/PDP one every two or three cycles - but I > wouldn't make them all instruction fetches! Using that definition, I think even the VAX might qualify. Actually, while the VAX is usually considered the CISCish of the CISC machines, in a sense it's very RISCish too---all instructions are very regular and support all the addressing modes, it has a slew of general purpose registers and for the time, was fairly compiler friendly. Perhaps if DEC had spent the money improving the VAX that Intel did for the 80x86 we might have the Pentium killer 8-) -spc (What goes around comes around) From spc at armigeron.com Thu Apr 23 13:31:56 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: <199804231833.AA03195@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 23, 98 02:33:28 pm Message-ID: <199804231831.OAA17282@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Allison J Parent once stated: > > Of all the micros in my collection, none are RISC save for the PDP-8 and > 6502 which in my mind come close. > > I have: 1802, SC/MP, 6800, 6809, NEC D78PG11, 8748/9, 8751, 8080/8085, > z80, z180, z280, z8002, z8001, 808x, 8018x, 80286, 80386, 80486 and the > micro version of minis 6100(pdp-8), 6120(PDP-8+EMA) TI9900, PDP11(T-11, > F11, J-11). > > Now something with a MIPS chip, ARM, sparc or some such would be a great > addition of a real RISC processor. I think it's the Nintendo-64 that has a MIPS chip in it, and with the right peripherals, would make for one killer computer (it's basically an SGI sans keyboard, harddrive and network connection). -spc (And the Newton uses the ARM ... ) From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Apr 23 09:30:17 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: NEC PC-6001A Message-ID: <199804231831.NAA11758@trailingedge.com> Anyone have any info on a NEC PC-6001A? It has what looks like a cartdrige or expansion port on the side and 2 joystick ports on the other side. Along the rear are printer, tape, audio out, rf out, video out and a volume control. Looks like it has a place for an optional RS-232 port but this one doesn't have it. Any info on this machine would be welcome; cpu, os, etc. Also, if someone knows the pin outs for the printer and tape ports, that would be helpful too. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Apr 23 09:33:28 1998 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Can someone help them? Message-ID: <199804231834.NAA11768@trailingedge.com> Can anyone here help them out? Please respond to them and not me. Thanks. ----- Date sent: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:37:31 -0400 From: Liz Huntley Subject: Laser, Pal286 A question if don't you mind? I'm tinkering with a Laser, Pal286. A customer of mine uses it, it had a HDD Controller Failure. It actually works pretty well when it's working. I don't suppose you know where I could get a working motherboard for it... which I'm guessing that it needs. I appreciate any info. Thanks, Liz Huntley | o_ | \ _ _ o _ ._ _ Liz Huntley |_|/_ |_/(/__> |(_|| |_> lizh@cannet.com _| Canton, Ohio ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 23 12:45:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980423091845.00bf53a0@pc> from "John Foust" at Apr 23, 98 09:18:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1164 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980423/7a7ebb03/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 23 12:48:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: <199804231435.AA09159@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 23, 98 10:35:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 554 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980423/7b1a8e1e/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 23 14:53:52 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? Message-ID: Anyone want to buy an Osborne 1 for $1000? Didn't think so. However, if you're interested in trying to talk this guy down to reality, I have the contact info. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Apr 23 14:58:34 1998 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? Message-ID: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5403280471@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Somebody's been reading that LA Times article again... Kai -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@wco.com] Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 12:54 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? Anyone want to buy an Osborne 1 for $1000? Didn't think so. However, if you're interested in trying to talk this guy down to reality, I have the contact info. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From engine at chac.org Thu Apr 23 16:05:09 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980423140509.00f74df0@pop.batnet.com> At 09:27 4/23/98 -0700, Sam wrote: >I'm sure this is not even an original thought, but the Year 2000 presents >a special opportunity for collectors like us. See ANALYTICAL ENGINE Volume 1, Number 2, October 1993 ;-) If we think we've got a space crisis NOW.... __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 23 16:55:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: <199804231833.AA03195@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 23, 98 02:33:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2877 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980423/2ee750cb/attachment.ksh From mor at crl.com Thu Apr 23 16:13:49 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] References: <3.0.1.32.19980422100731.00bdde80@pc> Message-ID: <353FAF0D.32D1FC04@crl.com> John Foust wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Been there, done that. There's a commercial program to convert .WAV > >files of C-64 data tapes back into usable files. It also works if > >you hook a real C-64 datassete to the parallel port. > > I know these programs exist. There are some for the Spectrum and ZX-81, > too. However, I could generalize and say they were all DOS-based, > written in Pascal or assembler, don't come with source code, have > poor documentation, etc. and I want to roll my own in straight portable C. > I'd rather make it general to handle old S-100 tapes, C-64 tapes, etc. > instead of just hard-coding one flavor. It should be ready in > the year 2010. I use a binary file -> .WAV file conversion program written in C, with source code included, absolute freeware, and already successfully ported to PC, Amiga, and Linux. It lays down a header specific to an Atari 2600 cassette add-on, and it doesn't reverse the conversion, but extending/genercizing it shouldn't be a lifelong project. Let me know if your interested and I'll send it to you. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 23 17:15:25 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: NEC PC-6001A In-Reply-To: <199804231831.NAA11758@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980423171525.39bfad9e@intellistar.net> At 02:30 PM 4/23/98 +0000, you wrote: >Anyone have any info on a NEC PC-6001A? No, but I have a technical manual for a NEC 8801 and it has a description of the four expansion slots in the 8801. Each slot has two rows of 36 contacts. Does that sound the same as your's? The manual says that these slots are upward compatible with the PC 8012 bus, whatever that is. The 8801 is desktop computer with Z-80 clone CPU. Joe It has what looks like a >cartdrige or expansion port on the side and 2 joystick ports on the >other side. Along the rear are printer, tape, audio out, rf out, >video out and a volume control. Looks like it has a place for an >optional RS-232 port but this one doesn't have it. > >Any info on this machine would be welcome; cpu, os, etc. Also, if >someone knows the pin outs for the printer and tape ports, that would >be helpful too. > >Thanks. > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@trailingedge.com >http://www.trailingedge.com > From adept at mcs.com Thu Apr 23 17:57:04 1998 From: adept at mcs.com (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? References: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5403280471@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <353FC740.D4D75D25@mcs.com> I actually have a few of osbornes (inc a 5xx serial numbered one :) and I'd love to trade one of them for (not the 5xx serial numbered one) for other interesting classic computer stuff. The one I'm thinking about trading has an Oscool fan attached to it also. Any offers entertained (trades, not cash). Cheers, Dan Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Somebody's been reading that LA Times article again... > > Kai > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [mailto:dastar@wco.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 12:54 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? > > Anyone want to buy an Osborne 1 for $1000? Didn't think so. However, if > you're interested in trying to talk this guy down to reality, I have the > contact info. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: > dastar@siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From engine at chac.org Thu Apr 23 18:17:17 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980423161717.00f25be0@pop.batnet.com> At 12:53 4/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone want to buy an Osborne 1 for $1000? Didn't think so. However, if >you're interested in trying to talk this guy down to reality, I have the >contact info. One of the original demo/proto Oz Ones with a metal case (of which Gale Rhoades once said there were about a dozen) went for $1000 -- IIRC -- on Onsale a couple of years ago. Not an ordinary one, no, but we have to be sure what the dude's got. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 23 18:29:40 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? you gotta be kidding! Message-ID: <6a21e1d4.353fcee6@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-23 19:19:31 EDT, you write: << At 12:53 4/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone want to buy an Osborne 1 for $1000? Didn't think so. However, if >you're interested in trying to talk this guy down to reality, I have the >contact info. One of the original demo/proto Oz Ones with a metal case (of which Gale Rhoades once said there were about a dozen) went for $1000 -- IIRC -- on Onsale a couple of years ago. Not an ordinary one, no, but we have to be sure what the dude's got. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California >> well, let's get the guy's email address. i'm willing to antagonize him about the overhyped price, anyone else? >8-> david From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 23 18:33:50 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980423161717.00f25be0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Kip Crosby wrote: > At 12:53 4/23/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Anyone want to buy an Osborne 1 for $1000? Didn't think so. However, if > >you're interested in trying to talk this guy down to reality, I have the > >contact info. > > One of the original demo/proto Oz Ones with a metal case (of which Gale > Rhoades once said there were about a dozen) went for $1000 -- IIRC -- on > Onsale a couple of years ago. Not an ordinary one, no, but we have to be > sure what the dude's got. His has a serial number in the 143,000 range so I doubt there's anything special about it unless it has Jimmy Hoffa's left pinky inside or something. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Apr 23 19:42:37 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? Message-ID: <005301bd6f19$e1b5de60$28020bce@fauradon> If you find out who buys it at this price I have another one I'm willing to let go for $1000;) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 23, 1998 2:55 PM Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? > >Anyone want to buy an Osborne 1 for $1000? Didn't think so. However, if From manney at lrbcg.com Thu Apr 23 19:30:01 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Coming back out of my hole...need software Message-ID: <01bd6f18$1ea267a0$d928a2ce@laptop> No, I need the paint program itself -- or any apple paint program. Manney >>Does anyone have the disks for the paint program that came with the Apple >>Koala pad? From manney at lrbcg.com Thu Apr 23 19:39:42 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Coming back out of my hole...need software Message-ID: <01bd6f19$788b42e0$d928a2ce@laptop> > Glad to have you back. (I was wondering where the heck you were.) > Tim D. Hotze Thanks. I had a buncha work, then both my desktop and laptop suffered problems. btw, did you still need those drives? I turned up a couple of ST-157's (40 MB), but I don't know of they work. Yet. manney@lrbcg.com From manney at lrbcg.com Thu Apr 23 19:42:04 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Grid P/S Message-ID: <01bd6f19$cd1346a0$d928a2ce@laptop> Anyone have a Grid 386 SX power brick? It has a strange looking plug on it. manney@lrbcg.com From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 23 20:23:45 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980423161717.00f25be0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: Speaking of CP/M boxen for sale, I just stopped by Halted in Sunnyvale and they have a few very clean CP/M machines (with plenty of docs and software) for $50 each: * TRS-80 Mod 3 w/printer and no docs (that I could see). * TRS-80 Mod 4 w/complete docs. * Epson QX-10 with docs and a QX-PC board to run MS-DOS. -- Doug From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 23 20:53:34 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Web Page Updated References: <353F5078.1F87@wenet.net> Message-ID: <353FF09E.6002C339@cnct.com> Edwin Vivian El-Kareh wrote: > > I believe that the Vintage Computer Festival should become a 501(c)3 non-profit > educational organization. Sam can still get paid for his services and reimbursed for his > expenses. However, VCF can then receive the donations and corporate sponsorships that > Perham and CHAC enjoy. Please let Sam know your thoughts on this matter > > Edwin "Walking Trouble" Vivian El-Kareh Well, I don't know diddly about "501(c)3", but I will state in public that if I ever have to attach a 3C501 to a network, that contract ends five minutes previous. (Are those bastards ten years old yet? They must be.) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 23 21:11:40 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] References: <3.0.1.32.19980422100731.00bdde80@pc> <353FAF0D.32D1FC04@crl.com> Message-ID: <353FF4DC.FCCEC0AD@cnct.com> Greg Troutman wrote: > I use a binary file -> .WAV file conversion program written in C, with > source code included, absolute freeware, and already successfully ported > to PC, Amiga, and Linux. It lays down a header specific to an Atari > 2600 cassette add-on, and it doesn't reverse the conversion, but > extending/genercizing it shouldn't be a lifelong project. Let me know > if your interested and I'll send it to you. Ship me a copy, at least the Linux port -- we'll see if we can add TRS-80 (Mod 1, Mod III and Color Computer) formats and I guess my wife's TI stuff. (No promises -- I'm not much of a programmer, I'm a sysadmin with a day job). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 23 21:21:59 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? References: <199804231605.AA04076@world.std.com> Message-ID: <353FF747.79B121EF@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > The PDP-11 is no slouch. I've used the T-11 part for some things and > even using the pokey 7.5mhz clock some tasks are faster than most > anything contemporary to it like the z80/8mhz even though the numbers > say slower. It's that CISC with superior addressing modes that put it > out ahead. Like when I used to benchmark the TRS-80 Color Computer against the IBM PC/XT. .9 Khz against 4.77 Mhz. The MC6809 kicked the ass of the 8088 every time. (I've always condidered the 8088 an 8-bit CPU with 16-bit pretensions and the 6809 a 16-bit CPU with 8-bit limitations -- not _entirely_ true, but blood (and performance) will tell.) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 23 21:30:08 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty References: <3.0.5.32.19980423140509.00f74df0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <353FF930.7178059C@cnct.com> Kip Crosby wrote: > > At 09:27 4/23/98 -0700, Sam wrote: > >I'm sure this is not even an original thought, but the Year 2000 presents > >a special opportunity for collectors like us. > > See ANALYTICAL ENGINE Volume 1, Number 2, October 1993 ;-) If we think > we've got a space crisis NOW.... Damn, I can't fit the fewkin' things through the doors of this damned house, let alone find enough unflooded (Spring happens) floor space in this basement. I don't concentrate on micros _only_ because I got my (computing, not collecting) start with a TRS-80 before it was called the Model 1 -- this house has narrow doorways and steep steps. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 23 21:41:26 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Joke about Wrist Computer References: <199804231624.LAA15772@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <353FFBD6.9CD3710C@cnct.com> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > A friend of mine has a joke that goes something like "In ten years > > we'll have a wrist computer with the horsepower of today's $5,000 > > workstation, voice recognition, holographic memory, etc. but there > > will still be an obscure way to get back to the C: prompt." > > Yeah, there will be a way to get back to the prompt allright-- via > the GPF mechanism in Windoze '08! (Just reboot -- Don't worry, be > happy). Right. Like a GPF in any older version of Windoze will let you get to a DOS prompt. Remember, "officially" Windows 95 and NT don't run on top of an MS-DOS floor like Windows 3.1[01] did. A 3.1 crash means a reboot, not a C: prompt, 97 times out of 100. A 95 or NT crash gives worse odds. At least before 95 and NT, Windows could be left out of the boot process with a simple change to AUTOEXEC.BAT. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 23 21:00:01 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: Captain Napalm "Re: Re[2]: Replies to various threads" (Apr 23, 14:31) References: <199804231831.OAA17282@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <9804240300.ZM21986@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 23, 14:31, Captain Napalm wrote: > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Replies to various threads > It was thus said that the Great Allison J Parent once stated: > > Now something with a MIPS chip, ARM, sparc or some such would be a great > > addition of a real RISC processor. > > I think it's the Nintendo-64 that has a MIPS chip in it, and with the > right peripherals, would make for one killer computer (it's basically an SGI > sans keyboard, harddrive and network connection). The MIPS chip in a Nintendo is a cut-down version of the versions used in SGI and the Nintendo is a long way from an SGI sans keyboard, harddrive, etc. I can't remember all the differences now, but I discussed it with SGI last year when I was looking for a fast CPU for an embedded application. We have lots of SGIs (of different types) here, so MIPS devices were one of the obvious things to look at. It's definitely RISC, though :-) The eventual choice was StrongARM, though the project never got built. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 23 21:51:01 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: Re[2]: Replies to various threads" (Apr 23, 14:33) References: <199804231833.AA03195@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9804240351.ZM22008@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 23, 14:33, Allison J Parent wrote: > Subject: Re: Re[2]: Replies to various threads > > <> The PDP-11 architecture has only 7 GP registers (since you can't really > <> the PC for just anything) but that's good for the times, and they reall > <> are interchangable, so I'd be willing to argue that it wins on that. > < > > Compared to maybe 6800 or 6502, the 8080 had 4 16bit registers (bc, de, > hl, sp). The z80 added a second set and IX/IY. But that was only one > aspect. But you can't easily use both sets of registers at the same time (yes, I know we sometimes do, but it's a fiddle) and the Z80 is very much a single-accumulator type of beast. And as for IX and IY ;-) The original design of the 6502, incidentally, was that all of zero-page be treated as registers. They just happen to be external to the chip, which wasn't completely unknown elsewhere in those days. So in that sense it is possibly the most register-rich design of the era -- but the registers are hardly general-purpose, and the 6502 is also a single-accumulator design. > On the instructions RISC systems of the time and even later didn't have > the addressing modes and often had a distinct register load and store > instruction. The best example of that difference was an ADD (R1),@(r2)+. > Now compare that to the DG Nova and it is of a stark difference. If you count all the ways you can index with registers, MIPS processors have quite a few addressing modes. Not all are used very often, though. > Of all the micros in my collection, none are RISC save for the PDP-8 and > 6502 which in my mind come close. The 6502 has a certain elegance of instruction set. Quite a different philosophy to the Z80, in many ways, but I like them both. We used to say that you had to learn how to use the 6502, and when you did, the code was neat, but on a Z80, you just had to decide what you wanted an instruction to do, and then pick the one that did that. Exaggeration, of course. > I have: 1802, SC/MP, 6800, 6809, NEC D78PG11, 8748/9, 8751, 8080/8085, > z80, z180, z280, z8002, z8001, 808x, 8018x, 80286, 80386, 80486 and the > micro version of minis 6100(pdp-8), 6120(PDP-8+EMA) TI9900, PDP11(T-11, > F11, J-11). Showoff :-) No 8008? I always wanted a 4004 (anyone listening out there, that's a hint) and an SC/MP. Anybody remember Fairchild F8's? > Now something with a MIPS chip, ARM, sparc or some such would be a great > addition of a real RISC processor. Well, I've got all of those, and my favourite is the ARM. I've had to write MIPS assembler, and it's not great fun. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Apr 23 22:15:20 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: paper tape Message-ID: <19980423201520.05c384c6.in@mail.pressstart.com> John Foust said: >I just got 21 rolls of original yellow Teletype 1" tape from >someone on the RTTY mailing list for the cost of shipping, and I >promised to share the wealth, so ... Well, do you know if it's oiled or unoiled? I'm not sure but I think I may need the oiled. I need to ask someone. My wife says that this tape I have has the distinct smell of machine oil. It should make the punch block last longer. I was just going to order a 1/4 case from Western Numerical Control (http://www.westnc.com/paptape.html). That's 7 rolls for $33.00, in all kinds of colors. And they are close by in Grass Valley,CA. I also want to ask them about the toxicity of paper tape. (My two sheppards think everything is a toy for them to fight over.) ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From mor at crl.com Thu Apr 23 21:10:48 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:30 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] References: <3.0.1.32.19980422100731.00bdde80@pc> <353FAF0D.32D1FC04@crl.com> <353FF4DC.FCCEC0AD@cnct.com> Message-ID: <353FF4A8.4CB5240A@crl.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Ship me a copy, at least the Linux port -- we'll see if we can add > TRS-80 (Mod 1, Mod III and Color Computer) formats and I guess my > wife's TI stuff. (No promises -- I'm not much of a programmer, I'm > a sysadmin with a day job). Okay here is the source. Let me know if you have trouble compiling it. -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: makewav.zip Type: application/x-zip-compressed Size: 8589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980423/c692d99d/makewav.bin From erd at infinet.com Thu Apr 23 22:07:39 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <353FAF0D.32D1FC04@crl.com> from "Greg Troutman" at Apr 23, 98 02:13:49 pm Message-ID: <199804240307.XAA15346@user2.infinet.com> > > John Foust wrote: > > > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >Been there, done that. There's a commercial program to convert .WAV > > >files of C-64 data tapes back into usable files. It also works if > > >you hook a real C-64 datassete to the parallel port. > > > > I know these programs exist. There are some for the Spectrum and ZX-81, > > too. However, I could generalize and say they were all DOS-based, > > written in Pascal or assembler, don't come with source code, have > > poor documentation, etc. and I want to roll my own in straight portable C. > > I'd rather make it general to handle old S-100 tapes, C-64 tapes, etc. > > instead of just hard-coding one flavor. It should be ready in > > the year 2010. I'd love to help add formats to a generic program. The one I have right now is TAPEIO.EXE, from the C-64 emulator C64S. I _wish_ I had source. I thought about banging together something, but I just don't have that kind of time. A punch card OCR program is about all I can manage right now. > I use a binary file -> .WAV file conversion program written in C, with > source code included, absolute freeware, and already successfully ported > to PC, Amiga, and Linux. It lays down a header specific to an Atari > 2600 cassette add-on, and it doesn't reverse the conversion, but > extending/genercizing it shouldn't be a lifelong project. Let me know > if your interested and I'll send it to you. I'd love to see the code. I hack Amigas and UNIX. One format that eludes me - PET Rabbit. I've got the tape version of the Rabbit (with original tape!) and the ROM Rabbit for BASIC 2.0. I haven't gotten around to disassembling the code and reverse engineering the format, but I think I'll have to... I've got a box of tapes and no working 2.0 machine at the moment (just a couple of 8032's). -ethan From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 23 22:33:13 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: PDP-11 = Pentium Killer? References: <199804231605.AA04076@world.std.com> <353FF747.79B121EF@cnct.com> Message-ID: <354007F9.FCB3527A@cnct.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > IBM PC/XT. .9 Khz against 4.77 Mhz. The MC6809 kicked the ass of Uh, that was supposed to be .9 Mhz, not Khz. I was sort of thinking of 900 Khz and my fingers went their own way. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Apr 23 22:53:33 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Schematics sites? Message-ID: <19980423205333.05e684e1.in@mail.pressstart.com> Tony Duell said: >BTW, does anyone know the position on reverse-engineered schematics? >Who owns the copyright on those? Check out BOMARC SERVICES (http://w3.trib.com/~rollo/bomcat.htm) Their catalog has 3,000 devices that they have reversed engineered and sell the schematics for. They usually advertise in Nuts and Volts. I remember when I was at Tengen in 91 or 92 and we were just getting started on the Sega Genesis, we sent them one and they sent back the schematics. It came in real handy, the only programming manual was xeroxed, handwritten and translated from Japanese (badly). ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum ========================================= From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 23 22:39:58 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? References: Message-ID: <3540098E.5CE16796@cnct.com> Doug Yowza wrote: > > Speaking of CP/M boxen for sale, I just stopped by Halted in Sunnyvale and > they have a few very clean CP/M machines (with plenty of docs and > software) for $50 each: > > * TRS-80 Mod 3 w/printer and no docs (that I could see). A TRS-80 Model 3 runs CP/M only with extensive modifications. The easiest such modification was the Model 4 upgrade several years later entailing a motherboard replacement (and no, you didn't get to keep the old parts). > * TRS-80 Mod 4 w/complete docs. That one runs CP/M straight, preferably the 3.0 version with a boot disk for it. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 23 22:37:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads Message-ID: <199804240337.AA05890@world.std.com> <> Compared to maybe 6800 or 6502, the 8080 had 4 16bit registers (bc, de, <> hl, sp). The z80 added a second set and IX/IY. But that was only one <> aspect. < Message-ID: <35400A4A.6F2236EF@goldrush.com> On Commodore Monitors for C128D. If you can find one you would want to get a Commodore 1902/a, 1084, or 2002. They support the RGBI (80 column video) as well as the split-composite (40 column video) the 128 produces. Magnavox produced much of the 1084 line and had a Magnavox model available (something like professional 80 column monitor, the front panel on mine is missing so I don't have the name). Regardless If you want to use both 40 and 80 column video, best to get one of the multi-function monitors, else you will need an RGBI and a composite montor (which by the way the C= 128 can display to both simultaneously as they are different video controllers at work.) On CP/M 3.0+. Really nice version; can read a variety of popular CP/M disk formats using the 1571 disk drive. If you plan to use 3.5" disks I guggest you look for a later version the the versoion supplied with the 128D, there are no support drivers for the 1581 (can't boot of of it etc.) Also "GO 64" gets you only to the Commodore 64 mode. you either place your CP/M disk in the drive before power-up or after power-up type "BOOT" in 128 mode to boot the operating system disk. (note make sure the 40/80 column key is down on power-up to ensure the 128 starts up in 80 column mode. :) Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Thu Apr 23 22:56:00 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Schematic Sites References: <199804230702.AAA16239@lists5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <35400D50.24BD11D@goldrush.com> > From: Julian Richardson > Subject: Schematics sites? > Message-ID: > > Hi all, > > are there any good sites out there containing collections of schematics > for old machines? I occasionally come across sites with a few schematics > / info for specific machines, but has anyone collected stuff together > for several different machines into one place? There is a growing one for Commodre 8-bit aficionados at: http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/ This FTP site has various shematics ROM Images, etc. Copyrights seem to be a mute issue for the 8-bits, as no one seems to really know who holds the Copyrights on the 8-bit Commodores (Escom?, Tulip?, Visicorp?, Gateway 2000?, the former MOS Technologies?) It is a popular thread on comp.sys.cbm. -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 23 23:04:45 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam References: <3.0.16.19980422163323.47d79b72@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <35400F5D.5842CB77@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 11:56 AM 4/19/98 +0100, you wrote: > >this is odd - we got exactly the same message chez communa. we're just > >wondering which address list they used, for sam's name to be on it as > >well as ours... > > Well, you're both on the ClassicCmp list, which is echoed to a web site... > And yes, there are spambots that comb web pages looking for e-mail > addresses. I know, because I have gotten Spam on my alphapager, and I > *know* I've never posted to a usenet newsgroup from my pager. 8^) I received the same spam. And I did not know that this list was being archived (other than by interested members). Will the standard X-archive directive prevent this? (Some so-called "archive" systems ignore it). I get enough junkmail as it is, due to my outspokenness in certain newsgroups -- I think of this list as a bit of a break. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From foxnhare at goldrush.com Thu Apr 23 23:03:30 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Copyrights, again... References: <199804150702.AAA28770@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <35400F12.595ADAFC@goldrush.com> As I was saying there was no clue to who owns Commodore *-Bit technology I received this message from the CBM-Hackers maillist: > Subject: Copyrights Commodore > Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 20:47:52 GMT > From: rbaltiss@worldaccess.nl > Reply-To: cbm-hackers@dot.tcm.hut.fi > To: cbm-hackers@dot.tcm.hut.fi (c64-maillist) > > Hallo allemaal, > > I just got some interesting news from my friend Wim. We both are members of the > border (???) of the Commodore GG (= User Group). As largest Commodore group > here in Holland and due to other reasons as well, we have established close > contacts with Tulip ie. Commodore. > Wim got an official letter of Tulip saying that they own all the rights of all > Commodores through out of the world with exception of the Amiga. So now we know. > > Next question is if we can get permission to continue the activities we employ > like placing ROMs, sourcelistings etc. on the net. I already had an unofficial > answer ("We don't mind as long it is not commercial") but an official one would > be better. > > Groetjes, ruud So I guess there is hope for us classic computing fans after all! :) -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From william at ans.net Thu Apr 23 23:39:55 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Think of all the companies who are right now weighing whether or not those > old mainframes that have been chugging away in their data centers for > years, perhaps even decades, are worth one more upgrade to support 4-digit > years or whether it would make more sense to finally take the painful > route of scrapping their old iron and moving on to PCs or AS400s or > whatnot. I predict a tremendous flood of old mainframe and mini hardware > coming to market like so many cattle which will only peak on December 31, > 1999. I do not think we are going to see a huge influx of oldiron at the scrapyards come the turn of the century. It has been happening steadily for the past five years or so. The mainframe world tends to be similar to the consumer desktop word, with the old S/360 standard being the dominant force and the Unisys standards being a distant second (like the Macintosh). Both of these companies foresaw the Y2K problem and came out with new machines and operating systems, and they have been selling lot of them (well, IBM and company anyway - Unisys seems to be fading). The hardware Y2K problem, for the most part, has been solved. But that was the easy bit... > This is a once in a millennium opportunity! So make sure you've got > plenty of space and plenty of petty cash to throw around cuz its gonna be > easy pickins. It has always been easy pickins. Just last week I dragged home a bunch of cards from 3880 storage directors, as well as cards from some early S/370 tape drives. The boxes themselves were too big to deal with (I was 800 miles from home on a business trip, and just had to take a little time to go to a junkyard). William Donzelli william@ans.net From mor at crl.com Thu Apr 23 23:38:01 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] References: <3.0.1.32.19980422100731.00bdde80@pc> <353FAF0D.32D1FC04@crl.com> <353FF4DC.FCCEC0AD@cnct.com> <353FF4A8.4CB5240A@crl.com> Message-ID: <35401729.2EFEFEA0@crl.com> Greg Troutman wrote: > Okay here is the source. Let me know if you have trouble compiling it. What a jerk! Oh well, no more requests for this please. Whew, at least it was only an 8K or so zip file, as opposed to say a modern Microsoft app ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 24 00:35:24 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <35401729.2EFEFEA0@crl.com> from "Greg Troutman" at Apr 23, 98 09:38:01 pm Message-ID: <199804240535.BAA18117@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Greg Troutman once stated: > > Greg Troutman wrote: > > > Okay here is the source. Let me know if you have trouble compiling it. > > What a jerk! Oh well, no more requests for this please. Whew, at least > it was only an 8K or so zip file, as opposed to say a modern Microsoft > app ;) Well, I snagged a copy of it, compiled it, found a bug, and fixed it. Replace line 439 strcpy(filename,strtok(NULL,"+")); to read: { char *p = strtok(NULL,"+"); if (p != NULL) strcpy(filename,p); else filename[0] = '\0'; } strcpy() (at least on my compiler) will crash if any of the parameters are NULL pointers, and strtok() will return a NULL pointer if no more tokens exist in the given string. -spc (There may be other bugs lurking, but this one bit fairly easily ...) From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 24 01:03:54 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: <9804240351.ZM22008@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Of all the micros in my collection, none are RISC save for the PDP-8 and > > 6502 which in my mind come close. > > The 6502 has a certain elegance of instruction set. Quite a different > philosophy to the Z80, in many ways, but I like them both. We used to say > that you had to learn how to use the 6502, and when you did, the code was > neat, but on a Z80, you just had to decide what you wanted an instruction > to do, and then pick the one that did that. Exaggeration, of course. One other nice thing about the 6502 instruction set, the organization of the instructions does make a lot of sense when you look at each opcode bit-wise rather than in hex. So for instance, a certain addressing mode always has certain bits on, and register specific opcodes (such as INX, INY) always have certain bits on, etc. I haven't looked at it in a while but I remember when I did it all made sense. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From mor at crl.com Fri Apr 24 00:24:28 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] References: <199804240535.BAA18117@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <3540220C.7BD39FC7@crl.com> Captain Napalm wrote: > strcpy() (at least on my compiler) will crash if any of the parameters are > NULL pointers, and strtok() will return a NULL pointer if no more tokens > exist in the given string. > > -spc (There may be other bugs lurking, but this one bit fairly easily ...) Never mind the bugs, how about a mod to make Tarbell tapes ;) BTW, I compiled this program without a hitch on Linux GCC, and have used it about a hundred times a day for nearly two years of writing Atari 2600 games... Whatever bugs are in there, I can live with! Oh yeah, and for those so-inclined, there are two upgrades that spool the audio straight out during the conversion so you don't have to keep the trillion byte .WAV files on disk. One is for a Windows on a fast pentium machine, and the other one is for................... COMMODORE 64! Put that in your SID-pipe and smoke it ;) -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/tps/ From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 24 07:11:07 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam Message-ID: <199804241211.AA06955@world.std.com> "Re: [getting old punched cards read]" (Apr 24, 1:35) References: <199804240535.BAA18117@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <9804241122.ZM28149@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 24, 1:35, Captain Napalm wrote: > Well, I snagged a copy of it, compiled it, found a bug, and fixed it. > strcpy() (at least on my compiler) will crash if any of the parameters > are NULL pointers, That's a compiler (or library, actually) bug. You should be able to copy a null string. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 24 07:26:55 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: Here's an interesting spam" (Apr 24, 8:11) References: <199804241211.AA06955@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9804241326.ZM28234@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 24, 8:11, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Ah foo! Everytime I think I've plugged the source for spam I find > something like this. > Any suggestions on how to stop it? I include a little bit of junk in my "From: " lines when I post to usenet from this account, and it seems to work. All the spam I get goes to an account I rarely use now, and it's tailing off. I didn't used to mung the address I use for this list, but perhaps I better start. Oh, spit, as they say. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Apr 24 07:38:39 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam Message-ID: <004401bd6f7d$ea0da5c0$0a67bcc1@hotze> >> > >> Ah foo! Everytime I think I've plugged the source for spam I find >> something like this. > >> Any suggestions on how to stop it? > >I include a little bit of junk in my "From: " lines when I post to usenet >from this account, and it seems to work. All the spam I get goes to an >account I rarely use now, and it's tailing off. I didn't used to mung the >address I use for this list, but perhaps I better start. Oh, spit, as they >say. This is very off topic, but anyway: Write a letter to the government. Reply to the spammers, say that you don't care about the shit that they're sending you, you're not reading it, and you think that they're very disreputable and that it's a wrong way of doing business. 2) Get a free e-mail account, such as http://www.hotmail.com , http://www.rocketmail.com or a free one that you can get with a web site, from a business or ISP, etc. or Yahoo! or the like. Us that for Usenet, and if you get a private message there, talk to 'em that way. >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York Tim D. Hotze From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 24 08:55:39 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Commodore Monitors References: <199804220702.AAA15743@lists3.u.washington.edu> <35400A4A.6F2236EF@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <354099DB.F24C7C46@bbtel.com> Larry Anderson wrote: > On Commodore Monitors for C128D. > > If you can find one you would want to get a Commodore 1902/a, 1084, or 2002. > They support the RGBI (80 column video) as well as the split-composite (40 > column video) the 128 produces. Magnavox produced much of the 1084 line and > had a Magnavox model available (something like professional 80 column monitor, > the front panel on mine is missing so I don't have the name). Magnavox CM8562. It's essentially the 1084 without the Commie overprint. They are great for having around for vcr and camcorder testing and alignment as well. I have an 8562 with cbales and manual but I also have a 1084 that I need to recreate the power supply PC board (it's cracked big time) and I need a copy of the manual for the 1084 if someone has one they could photocopy for reimbursment of copy and postage. > On CP/M 3.0+. > > Really nice version; can read a variety of popular CP/M disk formats using > the 1571 disk drive. If you plan to use 3.5" disks I guggest you look for a > later version the the versoion supplied with the 128D, there are no support > drivers for the 1581 (can't boot of of it etc.) Anyone have a 3.5" drive and later CP/M they want to sell or trade? I have both a 128 and 128D (<- like this better) and could really use one. I have a bunch of 3.5" floppies from an old Epson PX that I'd love to get back into. > Also "GO 64" gets you only to the Commodore 64 mode. you either place your > CP/M disk in the drive before power-up or after power-up type "BOOT" in 128 > mode to boot the operating system disk. (note make sure the 40/80 column key > is down on power-up to ensure the 128 starts up in 80 column mode. :) The "GO 64" reference was to tell him that he could run the 64 programs on the machine. > Larry Anderson > -- > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363 > Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at: > http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Apr 24 08:45:15 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Coming back out of my hole...need software Message-ID: <19980424134516.28914.qmail@hotmail.com> Exactly. I have the KoalaPaint program, but only for the commodore. > >No, I need the paint program itself -- or any apple paint program. > >Manney > >>>Does anyone have the disks for the paint program that came with the Apple >>>Koala pad? > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From scott at saskatoon.com Fri Apr 24 08:51:59 1998 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? In-Reply-To: <3540098E.5CE16796@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > A TRS-80 Model 3 runs CP/M only with extensive modifications. The > easiest such modification was the Model 4 upgrade several years > later entailing a motherboard replacement (and no, you didn't get to > keep the old parts). Actually, the only requirement for the original motherboard was that the service shop had to drill a hole through it. (Size may have been specified, I don't know.) In any case, I have several M3 motherboards with a hole drilled through a ground plane. (And still quite functional.) > Ward Griffiths ttyl srw From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 24 08:34:51 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam In-Reply-To: "Hotze" "Re: Here's an interesting spam" (Apr 24, 15:38) References: <004401bd6f7d$ea0da5c0$0a67bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <9804241434.ZM28424@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 24, 15:38, Hotze wrote: > This is very off topic, but anyway: Write a letter to the government. Writing to *my* government isn't likely to do much good against most spam, which tends to originate from US sites. All the UK ISPs I know of have an anti-spam policy anyway. > Reply to the spammers, Not often a good idea, since the consensus seems to be that responses merely confirm that the address they used is (still) valid. I hadn't thought about the free email account idea, but I'm not sure I want yet another account. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 24 09:07:11 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980424090711.00ba8770@pc> Tony Duell wrote: >I'll stick to a card reader that outputs 12 TTL signals + a strobe for >each column. I can understand that. OK, Tony, send me a spare card reader and I'll stop foaming at the mouth about this. :-) Leave the file formats to me; that's been my speciality for the last fifteen years! - John Jefferson Computer Museum From cfandt at servtech.com Fri Apr 24 10:08:10 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980423140509.00f74df0@pop.batnet.com> References: Message-ID: <199804241513.LAA26564@cyber2.servtech.com> Kip, is that magazine online anywhere? I haven't heard of it myself. Sounds like you are refering us to a rather interesting read! Hmmm... And Sam, you have an interesting thought. But I wonder actually how many old systems you refer to are actually are still in use? Anybody who's got a better handle on the present population of minis and mainframes still in service want to give an opinion on this? One drawback for me (maybe others here too): my wife will kill me if I drag home a second or third big-iron machine ;-) We just moved into a new house and I can say for sure that we are only _half-moved_ at the moment. The other stuff yet to move is my collections, library, workshop, tools, equipment, parts, stuff, etc, etc, etc.. I am tired and sore already. Thank heaven the old and new house are only about a mile apart! At 14:05 23-04-98 -0700, Kip wrote: >At 09:27 4/23/98 -0700, Sam wrote: >>I'm sure this is not even an original thought, but the Year 2000 presents >>a special opportunity for collectors like us. > >See ANALYTICAL ENGINE Volume 1, Number 2, October 1993 ;-) If we think >we've got a space crisis NOW.... >__________________________________________ >Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html >Computer History Association of California > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 24 10:27:42 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? In-Reply-To: <3540098E.5CE16796@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > Speaking of CP/M boxen for sale, I just stopped by Halted in Sunnyvale and > > they have a few very clean CP/M machines (with plenty of docs and > > software) for $50 each: > > > > * TRS-80 Mod 3 w/printer and no docs (that I could see). > > A TRS-80 Model 3 runs CP/M only with extensive modifications. The > easiest such modification was the Model 4 upgrade several years > later entailing a motherboard replacement (and no, you didn't get to > keep the old parts). Didn't Pickles&Trout make a CP/M (or CP/M-like) OS for the Model III? Marvin would know this. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 24 10:35:48 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > Think of all the companies who are right now weighing whether or not those > > old mainframes that have been chugging away in their data centers for > > years, perhaps even decades, are worth one more upgrade to support 4-digit > > years or whether it would make more sense to finally take the painful > > route of scrapping their old iron and moving on to PCs or AS400s or > > whatnot. I predict a tremendous flood of old mainframe and mini hardware > > coming to market like so many cattle which will only peak on December 31, > > 1999. > > I do not think we are going to see a huge influx of oldiron at the > scrapyards come the turn of the century. It has been happening steadily > for the past five years or so. The mainframe world tends to be > similar to the consumer desktop word, with the old S/360 standard being > the dominant force and the Unisys standards being a distant second (like > the Macintosh). Both of these companies foresaw the Y2K problem and came > out with new machines and operating systems, and they have been selling > lot of them (well, IBM and company anyway - Unisys seems to be fading). > The hardware Y2K problem, for the most part, has been solved. But that was > the easy bit... Of course the issue is not hardware, but rather software. And the continued maintainence of that software beyond 2000. And I'm sure a lot of companies will decide, irregardless of the platform, that its just not worth maintaining that decrepit code anymore and it would be a better investment to take the hit and upgrade to some modern platform with new software. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I stand by my assertion, and my garage is ready and waiting. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 24 10:45:45 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty In-Reply-To: <199804241513.LAA26564@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > Kip, is that magazine online anywhere? I haven't heard of it myself. > > Sounds like you are refering us to a rather interesting read! > > Hmmm... And Sam, you have an interesting thought. But I wonder actually how > many old systems you refer to are actually are still in use? I don't know...but if these old machines are still turning up regularly here and there then that's a hint, and you'd be surprised actually at the number of companies (perhaps mostly smaller ones) that are still using those machines for a specific application. And since if it ain't broke, don't fix it, they figured they'd use it until it just up and died, or until they HAD to upgrade. Mind you, this is all speculation, but its based on about 48 seconds of thinking, so its a pretty well researched thought :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Apr 24 11:49:07 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam Message-ID: <001f01bd6fa0$fa758c20$1b67bcc1@hotze> >> This is very off topic, but anyway: Write a letter to the government. > >Writing to *my* government isn't likely to do much good against most spam, >which tends to originate from US sites. All the UK ISPs I know of have an >anti-spam policy anyway. You're right, but still, if the UK could pass a law to make spam illegal, it would at least cause ripples to the US and every where else in the world. >Not often a good idea, since the consensus seems to be that responses >merely confirm that the address they used is (still) valid. Four letter words. They do wonders with spammers. >I hadn't thought about the free email account idea, but I'm not sure I want >yet another account. Sorry... I've only got two right now. And usually, I have one, but I had to get one at Geocities as it's not ISP-dependant, and I'm moving to Guyana, so during travel, I'll be suffeirng withdrawel from the Internet. Does anyone have a 386 portable somewhere stateside that I could buy? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 24 12:29:57 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam Message-ID: <199804241729.AA14668@world.std.com> Message-ID: > I don't know...but if these old machines are still turning up regularly > here and there then that's a hint, and you'd be surprised actually at the > number of companies (perhaps mostly smaller ones) that are still using > those machines for a specific application. And since if it ain't broke, > don't fix it, they figured they'd use it until it just up and died, or > until they HAD to upgrade. Oh yes, there still are some of the 15 or 20 year old beasts running. The air traffic control system is on ca. 1982 IBM 3081 water-machines, and there are plenty of 3090s going. I think there are even a few Cyber 180s chugging away (and how I lust for one!). I would not be at all suprised if there are still one or two S/370s or Univacs still going as well. The business minis, however, are hitting the scrap yards in record numbers. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mor at crl.com Fri Apr 24 11:46:38 1998 From: mor at crl.com (Greg Troutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty References: Message-ID: <3540C1EE.6CC6718E@crl.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I stand by my assertion, and my > garage is ready and waiting. Heh, mine's pretty much jam-packed. But there are some old appliances and furniture my wife's been making me save for so long now... I could easily stash some serious iron where that stuff is now sitting. Hmmm. Gotta get working on that... -- mor@crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/ From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 24 13:24:53 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <9804241122.ZM28149@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 24, 98 10:22:51 am Message-ID: <199804241824.OAA19367@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Pete Turnbull once stated: > > On Apr 24, 1:35, Captain Napalm wrote: > > Well, I snagged a copy of it, compiled it, found a bug, and fixed it. > > strcpy() (at least on my compiler) will crash if any of the parameters > > are NULL pointers, > > That's a compiler (or library, actually) bug. You should be able to copy a > null string. Well, I've tried it across four platforms and five compilers (Linux/GCC, Solaris/native and GCC, AIX/native and HPUX/native) and three of the five core dumped. I checked the standard and it doesn't say what it should do in case one of the parameters is NULL, so I assume this is an implementation detail and the safest thing to do is assume you can't strcpy() a NULL pointer (which I do anyway). -spc (Considers that a feature, not a bug) From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Apr 24 13:36:30 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty Message-ID: <19980424183630.8052.qmail@hotmail.com> As far as commonality of old machines goes, most airports have old machines. Public libraries do as well. The boston public library just replaced some Vaxen with Alpha machines. I couldn't get them to tell me what they did with the old stuff. In general, I would say that the amount of old machines is greater than a given reasonable estimate (ie there's always one more). Also, I'm wondering how many simple cash registers will have to be taken out of service. > >Hmmm... And Sam, you have an interesting thought. But I wonder actually how >many old systems you refer to are actually are still in use? > >Anybody who's got a better handle on the present population of minis and >mainframes still in service want to give an opinion on this? > >One drawback for me (maybe others here too): my wife will kill me if I drag >home a second or third big-iron machine ;-) We just moved into a new house >and I can say for sure that we are only _half-moved_ at the moment. The >other stuff yet to move is my collections, library, workshop, tools, >equipment, parts, stuff, etc, etc, etc.. I am tired and sore already. >Thank heaven the old and new house are only about a mile apart! > >At 14:05 23-04-98 -0700, Kip wrote: >>At 09:27 4/23/98 -0700, Sam wrote: >>>I'm sure this is not even an original thought, but the Year 2000 presents >>>a special opportunity for collectors like us. >> >>See ANALYTICAL ENGINE Volume 1, Number 2, October 1993 ;-) If we think >>we've got a space crisis NOW.... >>__________________________________________ >>Kip Crosby engine@chac.org >> http://www.chac.org/index.html >>Computer History Association of California >> >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lisard at zetnet.co.uk Fri Apr 24 13:49:55 1998 From: lisard at zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads Message-ID: <199804241849.TAA10131@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> On 1998-04-23 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet.co.uk :The PDP-11 architecture has only 7 GP registers (since you can't :really use the PC for just anything) but that's good for the times, :and they really are interchangable, so I'd be willing to argue that :it wins on that. and having the PC as part of the general register set - even if it is a bit limited in what you can do with it - is a huge design win; you can lose an awful lot of PC-specific instructions that way. the SOAR used such an idea, if memory serves. :Similar, but in many ways quite different. I just had this :argument (from a somewhat different point of view) on another :mailing list. The 68K is much more like a PDP-11 than anything :else, but it has a lot of clutter added. what about the CP1600? :That's my third of a tanner. hey! some of us are post-decimalisation, you know! -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 24 13:53:52 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam In-Reply-To: <9804241434.ZM28424@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 24, 15:38, Hotze wrote: > > This is very off topic, but anyway: Write a letter to the government. > > Writing to *my* government isn't likely to do much good against most spam, > which tends to originate from US sites. All the UK ISPs I know of have an > anti-spam policy anyway. > > > Reply to the spammers, > > Not often a good idea, since the consensus seems to be that responses > merely confirm that the address they used is (still) valid. True! However, in some cases e-mail with a copy of the spam or UCE to the postmaster of the ISP has been productive. In the case of known spam centers though, it is likely a BIG mistake. - don > I hadn't thought about the free email account idea, but I'm not sure I want > yet another account. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From pcoad at wco.com Fri Apr 24 14:38:28 1998 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: ansi c (almost on topic) was: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <199804241824.OAA19367@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Captain Napalm wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Pete Turnbull once stated: > > > > On Apr 24, 1:35, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > Well, I snagged a copy of it, compiled it, found a bug, and fixed it. > > > strcpy() (at least on my compiler) will crash if any of the parameters > > > are NULL pointers, > > > > That's a compiler (or library, actually) bug. You should be able to copy a > > null string. > > Well, I've tried it across four platforms and five compilers (Linux/GCC, > Solaris/native and GCC, AIX/native and HPUX/native) and three of the five > core dumped. > > I checked the standard and it doesn't say what it should do in case one of > the parameters is NULL, so I assume this is an implementation detail and the > safest thing to do is assume you can't strcpy() a NULL pointer (which I do > anyway). > > -spc (Considers that a feature, not a bug) The ANSI standard is not completely silent on the matter, but does not define the behavior. According to section 4.1.6 Use of Library Functions: "Each of the following statements applies unless explicitly stated otherwise in the detailed descriptions that follow. If an argument to a function has an invalid value (such as a value outside of the domain of the function, or a pointer outside the address space of the program or a null pointer), the behavior is undefined." So says ANSI X3.159-1989. So shall it be. --pec (who likes reading the standard a little too much) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From go at ao.com Fri Apr 24 15:12:15 1998 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? In-Reply-To: <353FC740.D4D75D25@mcs.com> References: <61AC5C9A4B9CD11181A200805F57CD5403280471@red-msg-44.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199804242012.NAA14790@office.ao.com> In a private exchange with Dan, we discovered we both have Osborne 1 computers with very similar serial number. I have a light brown machine with "A 00547" while he has one with "CA 000547". It brings to mind the question of what serial numbers were used for the Osbornes at what time. Does anyone have any definitive information about this? I "inherited" mine with the above serial number (inherited may be the wrong word - a friend heard I "collected" and found an easy disposal I think :-) and am now wondering just when it was produced. I'm not a student of the "Ozzies" so don't know when case styles changed and all that. Mine appears to be "hand made" in that there are obvious "hand carvings" on the molded brown case. And there appear to to some drilled holes that were "a little off target." Nevertheless it works fine and I've having fun with it. Gary At 05:57 PM 4/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >I actually have a few of osbornes (inc a 5xx serial numbered one :) and I'd love >to trade one of them for (not the 5xx serial numbered one) for other interesting >classic computer stuff. The one I'm thinking about trading has an Oscool fan >attached to it also. Any offers entertained (trades, not cash). > >Cheers, > > Dan > From altair8800 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 24 03:30:28 1998 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: eBay transactions Message-ID: <19980424083028.19398.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anyone know if Ebay is a publicly traded stock? If so I would like to buy a few hundred shares. It has to be one of the most enormously successful phenomena on the net. Bob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Fri Apr 24 15:28:25 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: eBay transactions In-Reply-To: <19980424083028.19398.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Bob Wood wrote: > Does anyone know if Ebay is a publicly traded stock? > If so I would like to buy a few hundred shares. It > has to be one of the most enormously successful > phenomena on the net. They're privately held, backed by venture funding, and reportedly have a low collection rate on their fees. The only publically traded online auction company is Onsale (ONSL on NASDAQ). Because of their business model, they have much higher revenue than eBay, but they're not profitable (as if that matters to Wall Street). ObClassicCmp: only Haggle Online (www.haggle.com) has an Antique Computers category (but Classified2000 has an Old Computers category w/o an auction format). -- Doug From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 24 16:07:45 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: What's up with xkleten? Message-ID: <13350438274.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I can't seem to get ahold of it anymore, was it decomissioned or something? ------- From cfandt at servtech.com Fri Apr 24 16:09:52 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam In-Reply-To: References: <9804241434.ZM28424@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199804242114.RAA02038@cyber2.servtech.com> At 11:53 24-04-98 -0700, Don Maslin wrote: >On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On Apr 24, 15:38, Hotze wrote: >> > This is very off topic, but anyway: Write a letter to the government. >> >> Writing to *my* government isn't likely to do much good against most spam, >> which tends to originate from US sites. All the UK ISPs I know of have an >> anti-spam policy anyway. >> >> > Reply to the spammers, >> >> Not often a good idea, since the consensus seems to be that responses >> merely confirm that the address they used is (still) valid. > >True! However, in some cases e-mail with a copy of the spam or UCE to >the postmaster of the ISP has been productive. In the case of known spam >centers though, it is likely a BIG mistake. > - don Yeah, Don, I think you're right. I've been infuriated enough at spammers to think of such things plus mail-bombing, etc. But the discussion in the following URL shows us if we privately vent our rage at the more sophisticated spam centers it really could be a mistake. Take a look at http://www.sputum.com/sputools.html . Read the text on the main page you'll first see in this URL. This outfit has obviously done quite a study on spamming and offers rather realistic advice as to handling certain types of spammers. Offers some s/w to help deal with them too if one is inclined to go that far. Look at the picture at the top of their page above the text which shows a can of a certain thing which was cutoff from a spammer. Serving suggestion shows it on a silver tray. Isn't that a hoot! By the way, I got spammed heavily when I first started partaking in usenet discussions. I got nailed with literally dozens of spam trash each of the next several days. I soon learned that by setting my 'from:' and 'reply to: ' fields to c_fandt@serv_tech.com would fairly quickly stop the trash haul. Thank heaven it seems most if not all spammers do not troll the Internet for email addresses in SMTP-carried messages like this one. ======================================================= Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian 31 Houston Avenue, WE Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home Jamestown, New York +716-661-1832 -Office 14701-2627 USA Fax: +716-661-1888 -Office fax email: cfandt@servtech.com Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 24 17:10:45 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't know...but if these old machines are still turning up regularly > > here and there then that's a hint, and you'd be surprised actually at the > > number of companies (perhaps mostly smaller ones) that are still using > > those machines for a specific application. And since if it ain't broke, > > don't fix it, they figured they'd use it until it just up and died, or > > until they HAD to upgrade. > > Oh yes, there still are some of the 15 or 20 year old beasts running. The > air traffic control system is on ca. 1982 IBM 3081 water-machines, and > there are plenty of 3090s going. I think there are even a few Cyber 180s > chugging away (and how I lust for one!). I would not be at all suprised if > there are still one or two S/370s or Univacs still going as well. > > The business minis, however, are hitting the scrap yards in record > numbers. My point exactly. And if my intuition serves me well on this one the rate at which we see old iron being retired will increase dramatically over the next two years. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 24 17:25:38 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? In-Reply-To: <199804242012.NAA14790@office.ao.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Gary Oliver wrote: > In a private exchange with Dan, we discovered we both have Osborne 1 computers > with very similar serial number. I have a light brown machine with "A 00547" > while he has one with "CA 000547". It brings to mind the question of what > serial numbers were used for the Osbornes at what time. Does anyone have any > definitive information about this? Gary, yours is the older one. By "light brown" I'll take that to mean "tan" which is the style of the first run of Osborne 1's (and also the type I have). Both of mine have serial numbers less than 2000, both with an 'A' prefix. One of the two is specifically "A1284". I'd be willing to bet that Gary's is the newer Osborne model (the grey, more rectangular shaped model). How about it, Gary? > I "inherited" mine with the above serial number (inherited may be the > wrong word - a friend heard I "collected" and found an easy disposal I > think :-) and am now wondering just when it was produced. I'm not a > student of the "Ozzies" so don't know when case styles changed and all > that. Mine appears to be "hand made" in that there are obvious "hand > carvings" on the molded brown case. And there appear to to some drilled > holes that were "a little off target." I think that was just indicative of a poor manufacturing process, but I recall mine also has holes drilled off-center and such. I don't know when the new vs. the old model came out either, but the first Osborne's hit the streets in April of 1981. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From bwit at pobox.com Fri Apr 24 17:10:23 1998 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <01BD6FA6.41C31480@ppp-151-164-58-52.rcsntx.swbell.net> There's a big difference between a NUL string and a NULL pointer. ---------- From: Pete Turnbull[SMTP:pete@dunnington.u-net.com] Sent: Friday, April 24, 1998 5:22 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: [getting old punched cards read] On Apr 24, 1:35, Captain Napalm wrote: > Well, I snagged a copy of it, compiled it, found a bug, and fixed it. > strcpy() (at least on my compiler) will crash if any of the parameters > are NULL pointers, That's a compiler (or library, actually) bug. You should be able to copy a null string. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From lisard at zetnet.co.uk Fri Apr 24 17:35:04 1998 From: lisard at zetnet.co.uk (lisard@zetnet.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads Message-ID: <199804242235.XAA03329@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> On 1998-04-24 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to lisard@zetnet.co.uk :> I have: 1802, SC/MP, 6800, 6809, NEC D78PG11, 8748/9, 8751, :>8080/8085, z80, z180, z280, z8002, z8001, 808x, 8018x, 80286, :>80386, 80486 and the micro version of minis 6100(pdp-8), :>6120(PDP-8+EMA) TI9900, PDP11(T-11, F11, J-11). :Showoff :-) No 8008? I always wanted a 4004 (anyone listening out :there, that's a hint) and an SC/MP. Anybody remember Fairchild F8's? remember, no. heard of, yes. the Great CPU list is a wonderful thing... :> Now something with a MIPS chip, ARM, sparc or some such would be :>a great addition of a real RISC processor. :Well, I've got all of those, and my favourite is the ARM. I've had :to write MIPS assembler, and it's not great fun. most risc processors are not fun to program in assembler. some risc chips - notably the novix and a few other forth cpus - look like murder to program. however, one of the design criteria of the arm was that it was to be easy to program in assembler - and the instruction set certainly suggests that it should be. (not having one, we can't say "it is", but hopefully that will be remedied before too long.) -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... From adept at mcs.com Fri Apr 24 17:38:15 1998 From: adept at mcs.com (The Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? References: Message-ID: <35411457.22BA1EFE@mcs.com> I'm guessing you intended to ask me if mine was the grey one. Ayup, mine is grey. ;) I just found it to be such an amazing coincidence to find someone with a serial number of an osborne the same as mine. :) Dan Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Gary Oliver wrote: > > > In a private exchange with Dan, we discovered we both have Osborne 1 computers > > with very similar serial number. I have a light brown machine with "A 00547" > > while he has one with "CA 000547". It brings to mind the question of what > > serial numbers were used for the Osbornes at what time. Does anyone have any > > definitive information about this? > > Gary, yours is the older one. By "light brown" I'll take that to mean > "tan" which is the style of the first run of Osborne 1's (and also the > type I have). Both of mine have serial numbers less than 2000, both with > an 'A' prefix. One of the two is specifically "A1284". I'd be willing to > bet that Gary's is the newer Osborne model (the grey, more rectangular > shaped model). How about it, Gary? > > > I "inherited" mine with the above serial number (inherited may be the > > wrong word - a friend heard I "collected" and found an easy disposal I > > think :-) and am now wondering just when it was produced. I'm not a > > student of the "Ozzies" so don't know when case styles changed and all > > that. Mine appears to be "hand made" in that there are obvious "hand > > carvings" on the molded brown case. And there appear to to some drilled > > holes that were "a little off target." > > I think that was just indicative of a poor manufacturing process, but I > recall mine also has holes drilled off-center and such. I don't know when > the new vs. the old model came out either, but the first Osborne's hit the > streets in April of 1981. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From william at ans.net Fri Apr 24 17:57:53 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > My point exactly. And if my intuition serves me well on this one the rate > at which we see old iron being retired will increase dramatically over the > next two years. At this point, everyone on this list could have an S/34, S/36, or S/38! Beyond them, I do not think any of the other minis are in real trouble of scrapage, as most are doing things that are not COBOL based (like the hoards of PDP-11s, and few -8s, still doing industrial process control). Unfortuneately, I think the other business minis (Burroughs, Honeywell, etc.) are mostly all gone now. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Fri Apr 24 18:28:59 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty References: <19980424183630.8052.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3541203B.1486A5EB@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > In general, I would say that the amount of old machines is greater > than a given reasonable estimate (ie there's always one more). > Also, I'm wondering how many simple cash registers will have to be > taken out of service. The _simple_ cash registers will keep plugging along doing what they do best. As far as I can tell, they're not particularly sensitive to what century they're in. The complex fancy new-fangled registers are a whole nother story -- anybody know what types of systems are most used at the other end of the cables attached to the laser bar-code readers? Not an industry I've dealt with much except as a consumer. (I know damned well there are a few NCR registers still in service from the 19th century -- they should make the transition to the 21st without a hickup.) -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Fri Apr 24 18:49:44 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? References: Message-ID: <35412518.3462CE1D@cnct.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > > Speaking of CP/M boxen for sale, I just stopped by Halted in Sunnyvale and > > > they have a few very clean CP/M machines (with plenty of docs and > > > software) for $50 each: > > > > > > * TRS-80 Mod 3 w/printer and no docs (that I could see). > > > > A TRS-80 Model 3 runs CP/M only with extensive modifications. The > > easiest such modification was the Model 4 upgrade several years > > later entailing a motherboard replacement (and no, you didn't get to > > keep the old parts). > > Didn't Pickles&Trout make a CP/M (or CP/M-like) OS for the Model III? > Marvin would know this. Far as I recall, P&T never did a port for any of the Tandy 5.25" machines -- just the 2/16/12/6000 series. A good job they did on those, far superior (to this Tandy tech support guy) to that thing Lifeboat put out. They didn't do one for the Mod 4 since CP/M 3 was announced for the Mod 4 when the Mod 4 was announced (though there were a few months delay in shipping the package). Any CP/M for the Mod 3 would have required a hardware change (as in the Montezuma Micro upgrade for the Mod One) to put RAM in the area occupied by the BASIC ROM(s). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 24 19:39:12 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: Bob Withers "RE: [getting old punched cards read]" (Apr 24, 17:10) References: <01BD6FA6.41C31480@ppp-151-164-58-52.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <9804250139.ZM838@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 24, 17:10, Bob Withers wrote: > There's a big difference between a NUL string and a NULL pointer. Yes, but that's not what I wrote. A null string is an empty string (no characters). A NUL string would be a string with a single ASCII NUL character in it -- and rather hard to manipulate in C, since NULs mark the ends. Nevertheless, they do exist, though that wasn't what I was talking about. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 24 19:26:48 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: Here's an interesting spam In-Reply-To: Don Maslin "Re: Here's an interesting spam" (Apr 24, 11:53) References: Message-ID: <9804250126.ZM825@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 24, 11:53, Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Apr 24, 15:38, Hotze wrote: > > > Reply to the spammers, > > > > Not often a good idea, since the consensus seems to be that responses > > merely confirm that the address they used is (still) valid. > > True! However, in some cases e-mail with a copy of the spam or UCE to > the postmaster of the ISP has been productive. In the case of known spam > centers though, it is likely a BIG mistake. Yes, I should perhaps have mentioned mailing to postmaster@... or abuse@... as several responsible ISPs do follow these things up. I've had two very positive responses from sysadmins, one of whom tracked a spammer who was spoofing via his system, and one from a large ISP. In both cases, the culprit lost their account. It's worth looking at all the "Received: from ..." headers in such cases. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 24 19:32:02 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:31 2005 Subject: ansi c (almost on topic) was: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: Paul E Coad "ansi c (almost on topic) was: [getting old punched cards read]" (Apr 24, 12:38) References: Message-ID: <9804250132.ZM829@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 24, 12:38, Paul E Coad wrote: > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Captain Napalm wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Pete Turnbull once stated: > > > > > > On Apr 24, 1:35, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > > strcpy() (at least on my compiler) will crash if any of the > > > > parameters are NULL pointers, > > > > > > That's a compiler (or library, actually) bug. You should be able to > > > copy a null string. > > > > Well, I've tried it across four platforms and five compilers > > (Linux/GCC, Solaris/native and GCC, AIX/native and HPUX/native) and > > three of the five core dumped. > > > The ANSI standard is not completely silent on the matter, but does not > define the behavior. > > "Each of the following statements applies unless explicitly stated > otherwise in the detailed descriptions that follow. If an argument > to a function has an invalid value (such as a value outside of the > domain of the function, or a pointer outside the address space of > the program or a null pointer), the behavior is undefined." Well, whether I think that's sensible or not ('cos I think you ought to be able to copy a null string), if ANSI says it's undefined, then it's not a bug. I take it back. And thanks for checking, which I was too lazy to do :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 24 19:32:05 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <9804250139.ZM838@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 25, 98 00:39:12 am Message-ID: <199804250032.UAA19953@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Pete Turnbull once stated: > > On Apr 24, 17:10, Bob Withers wrote: > > There's a big difference between a NUL string and a NULL pointer. > > Yes, but that's not what I wrote. A null string is an empty string (no > characters). A NUL string would be a string with a single ASCII NUL > character in it -- and rather hard to manipulate in C, since NULs mark the > ends. Nevertheless, they do exist, though that wasn't what I was talking > about. And what I was talking about was NULL pointers, which strcpy() doesn't like. -spc (and it's a NULL POINTER that strtok() will return, not a NULL string.) From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 24 19:37:06 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: ansi c (almost on topic) was: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: <9804250132.ZM829@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 25, 98 00:32:02 am Message-ID: <199804250037.UAA19972@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Pete Turnbull once stated: > > On Apr 24, 12:38, Paul E Coad wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > It was thus said that the Great Pete Turnbull once stated: > > > > > > > > On Apr 24, 1:35, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > > > strcpy() (at least on my compiler) will crash if any of the > > > > > parameters are NULL pointers, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > That's a compiler (or library, actually) bug. You should be able to > > > > copy a null string. ^^^^^^^^^^^ I see the proglem. I think you originally misread what I wrote. And they are two different things. -spc (you CAN copy a null string, but not a NULL pointer ... ) From bwit at pobox.com Fri Apr 24 19:55:25 1998 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] Message-ID: <01BD6FBA.EF293FA0@ppp-151-164-50-68.rcsntx.swbell.net> The original poster stated that he was passing a NULL POINTER to strcpy. You replied that it should be OK to copy from a NUL STRING. I understand the difference and was trying to casually point out that you were not addressing the question asked. Sorry if I ruffled some feathers. Bob ---------- From: Pete Turnbull[SMTP:pete@dunnington.u-net.com] Sent: Friday, April 24, 1998 7:39 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: [getting old punched cards read] On Apr 24, 17:10, Bob Withers wrote: > There's a big difference between a NUL string and a NULL pointer. Yes, but that's not what I wrote. A null string is an empty string (no characters). A NUL string would be a string with a single ASCII NUL character in it -- and rather hard to manipulate in C, since NULs mark the ends. Nevertheless, they do exist, though that wasn't what I was talking about. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 24 20:06:17 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? In-Reply-To: <35411457.22BA1EFE@mcs.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, The Adept wrote: > I'm guessing you intended to ask me if mine was the grey one. Ayup, > mine is grey. ;) I just found it to be such an amazing coincidence to > find someone with a serial number of an osborne the same as mine. :) Yes, I did mean Dan and not Gary. So you have the newer one, and yes, it is an interesting coincidence that you happened to have the same serial number. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 24 20:11:34 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: Bob Withers "RE: [getting old punched cards read]" (Apr 24, 19:55) References: <01BD6FBA.EF293FA0@ppp-151-164-50-68.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <9804250211.ZM687@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 24, 19:55, Bob Withers wrote: The original poster stated that he was passing a NULL POINTER to strcpy. You replied that it should be OK to copy from a NUL STRING. I understand the difference and was trying to casually point out that you were not addressing the question asked. Sorry if I ruffled some feathers. You didn't. I just normally write in that tone of voice (if you see what I mean :-)) -- and I hadn't quite thought it through. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 24 19:56:43 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: [getting old punched cards read] In-Reply-To: Captain Napalm "Re: [getting old punched cards read]" (Apr 24, 20:32) References: <199804250032.UAA19953@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <9804250156.ZM902@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 24, 20:32, Captain Napalm wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Pete Turnbull once stated: > > Yes, but that's not what I wrote. A null string is an empty string (no > > characters). A NUL string would be a string with a single ASCII NUL > > character in it > And what I was talking about was NULL pointers, which strcpy() doesn't > like. > > -spc (and it's a NULL POINTER that strtok() will return, not a NULL > string.) Oops. Too much gin in the tonic water tonight. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From manney at lrbcg.com Fri Apr 24 20:14:08 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: C64 3 1/2" drive Message-ID: <01bd6fe7$724e3b20$LocalHost@laptop> Just turned up a Commodore 3 1/2" drive -- didn't know they existed! Anyone interested? Also, some strange thing with 4 hand held units with 4 buttons each, which plugs into the joystick port. No software. manney@lrbcg.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 24 19:39:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: <9804240351.ZM22008@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 24, 98 02:51:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1495 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980425/09795514/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 24 19:41:55 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: paper tape In-Reply-To: <19980423201520.05c384c6.in@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at Apr 23, 98 08:15:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 306 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980425/1dfcdefe/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 24 19:46:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 for $1000? In-Reply-To: <3540098E.5CE16796@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Apr 23, 98 11:39:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 954 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980425/c1a0447a/attachment.ksh From maxeskin at hotmail.com Fri Apr 24 20:49:22 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty Message-ID: <19980425014923.4911.qmail@hotmail.com> What really came to my mind was an ancient McDonalds thing I saw once. They were 50's style rounded video monitors, awful text. They looked like something from "Brazil". I was wondering how those would tolerate it. Also, those UPS hand-held things > >> In general, I would say that the amount of old machines is greater >> than a given reasonable estimate (ie there's always one more). >> Also, I'm wondering how many simple cash registers will have to be >> taken out of service. > >The _simple_ cash registers will keep plugging along doing what they >do best. As far as I can tell, they're not particularly sensitive >to what century they're in. The complex fancy new-fangled registers >are a whole nother story -- anybody know what types of systems are >most used at the other end of the cables attached to the laser >bar-code readers? Not an industry I've dealt with much except as a >consumer. (I know damned well there are a few NCR registers still >in service from the 19th century -- they should make the transition >to the 21st without a hickup.) >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Fri Apr 24 20:58:21 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: paper tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > I also want to ask them about the toxicity of paper tape. (My two > > sheppards think everything is a toy for them to fight over.) > > I've eaten it... Tastes horrible (particularly the oiled stuff), but I'm > here to tell you about it. Ditto floppy disks, BTW. So it's probably not > _that_ toxic. Damn, Tony, you are multifaceted (but I'm not sure I want to know what else you can do, OK? :-) -- Doug From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 24 21:58:55 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Commodore 900 Message-ID: Pardon my forwarding this from the "Team Amiga" mailing list, but I figure some people here might find this very interesting. Zane >Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:54:25 -0400 (EDT) >To: >From: Dave Haynie >Subject: Re: Commodore 900 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Sender: owner-teamamiga@thule.no >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: teamamiga@thule.no > >On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:55:49 +0500, amorel jammed all >night, and by sunrise was overheard remarking: > >>> When Commodore Holland went bust, there stuff got sold to different >> traders. At a fair in Nov. 1995, in Holland(HCC beurs) I bought an >> interesting machine, called the Commodore 900. > >Cool! I would love to have one of those. > >The C900 was the Commodore "next generation" machine, before we bought >Amiga. It had unfortunately been through a few different design teams >before it really worked. I never worked on it -- I was on the C128 at >the time. George Robbins and Bob Welland really got it going; the same >guys who created the A500 architecture. The C900 was about ready to ship >when we bought the Amiga. Commodore was hurtin' then -- we had been >through four rounds of layoffs, the only time it got worse was in later >'93/early '94 when they bought the farm. C= put everything behind the >Amiga -- emotionally, in retrospect, the right thing to do. But I can't >help but wonder if the C900 might not have gone gangbusters, especially >in Europe. At the time, the only megapixel UNIX workstations came from >Sun and Apollo... > >> The machine is a Unix workstation. > >It actually ran Coherent, a UNIX clone from Mark-Williams. > >> Inside there is a shitload of electronics. At least there's no room for >> a lot more, like extension cards. > >Actually, it did take expansion cards, but kind of a novel design -- >they stacked, one on top of the other. If you've ever seen PC/104 cards, >you'll get the idea. The 8563 chip, the 80 column chip in the C128, was >originally designed as a "dumb terminal" display chip for the C900. >Apparently, the idea was to have this chip, and a 6502 or some-such, and >an RS-232 chip (like the 6551), togther in a character-based monitor, >for cheap multiuser systems built up around the C900. There was also a >blitter based graphics card (the built-in monochrome display has no >blitter), with a Welland-done blitter (a bit more sophisticated in some >places than the Amiga, for example, like AAA, it would work in real >pixel coordinates, rather than offset/modulo). > >> The motherboard has Zilog 16 bit CPU (16 bit version of the Z80?) > >The Z8000. It wasn't a 16-bit version of the Z-80, but something new. It >wasn't quite as cool as the 68000, since the model was definitely >16-bit. But much better than the 8086/8088 of the time. > >> and one which might be scsi and more. > >The DMA chip on the A2090/A2090A controllers for the Amiga, was >originally designed for this system. > >> The great thing is, it even works! :-) > >Cool! > >> Anyway, has anyone any info about this? > >You know pretty much what I know. I don't know if there's anything else, >I can ask around, see if George has any details. Gimme a direct mail if >you'd like to continue offline. > >> Until now I have not had any sign of anyone on internet who knows >> about this. > >Rarer than the A3000+, I suspect. A definite collector's item. > >Dave Haynie | V.P. Technology, PIOS Computer | http://www.pios.de >Be Dev #2024 | DMX2000 Powered! | Amiga 2000, 3000, 4000, PIOS One > Buy my house! Take the tour at http://www.jersey.net/~dhaynie > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 24 22:25:54 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Netscape needs Classic Computer Help! Message-ID: If you haven't seen the news yet, I found out thanks to http://slashdot.org , Microsoft is pulling one of their dirtiest stunts ever in their attempt to destroy Netscape. If anyone doesn't think Microsoft is evil this should convince them, unless they are niave enough to think Microsoft isn't behind this! In what would appear to be a result of their assimilation of Wang last month, Wang has announced a Lawsuit against Netscape for Patent infringement. Basically Wang is claiming to have "Save As..." patented?!?!?! For an explanation see http://www.mozilla.org/legal/wangsuit.html I also like the Graphic and comment at http://www.mozilla.org The problem is, Wang is sueing them for something that almost EVERY piece of software available does! Netscape needs examples of software that do the things in the patent prior to March 30th, 1983. See the below information. Wang might be able to use this to get a Court injunction to prevent Netscape from distributing Navigator?!?! A lot of the Free Software fanatics are seeing this as a direct attack against free software by Microsoft, since Netscape just released the Navigator source code. Zane Here is the portion of the statement that is the most important: ----------- Wang is asserting that a patent that it holds for a video text system is infringed by the Netscape browser. Netscape is vigorously defending the lawsuit. Wang contends the patent discloses the invention of: Saving web pages retrieved from a server using "Save As" (See Claim 23, 24), Bookmarks (Claims 20-22), Saving files with file extensions and then retrieving the pages and decoding the files based on the file extension (Claim 38). The patent was filed in 1984. We believe the patent is noninfringed, unenforceable, and invalid based on, among other things, prior art such as the Alto & Star computers from Xerox Parc, Terminal Emulators, connectivity software prevelant in the the early 80s such as CrossTalk, Unix symbolic links (ln -s), and various other "video text" systems like Telidon, Prestel, Mupid used in the late 70s, early 80s. It's easy to say "of course that's invalid", but what is required are specific references to prior art. If you know of additional prior art publications, software programs, books, or systems in existence --prior to March 30, 1983-- which disclose and/or describe the claimed elements send us a message. Send responses or questions to mozilla.org. Please include the following information: Name of the Publication or System Date of the Publication or Date System Was Publicly Known Features it Discloses Where Can the Publication or System Be Found (ie. university, reference library, company, contact person) ---------- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 24 21:34:22 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: paper tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > I also want to ask them about the toxicity of paper tape. (My two > > sheppards think everything is a toy for them to fight over.) > > I've eaten it... Tastes horrible (particularly the oiled stuff), but I'm > here to tell you about it. Ditto floppy disks, BTW. So it's probably not > _that_ toxic. > > -tony Were you accidentally locked into a computer supply closet over a weekend or something? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From yowza at yowza.com Fri Apr 24 21:50:23 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > If you haven't seen the news yet, I found out thanks to http://slashdot.org > , Microsoft is pulling one of their dirtiest stunts ever in their attempt > to destroy Netscape. If anyone doesn't think Microsoft is evil this should > convince them, unless they are niave enough to think Microsoft isn't behind > this! What makes you think the Evil Empire is behind this? Did Microsoft buy Wang recently? If not, they'll get hit with the same suit. > The problem is, Wang is sueing them for something that almost EVERY piece > of software available does! Netscape needs examples of software that do > the things in the patent prior to March 30th, 1983. It sounds like the Wang patent basically covers rendering formatted information on a terminal that was acquired via a remote connection. So, what was the closest thing to a Web browser before 1993? GRiD fan that I am, I vote for the 1982 GRiD/OS and remote GRiDCentral. GRiD/OS had a form and menu based OS interface and actions were based on the file type and extension. GRiDCentral (and the LAN-based GRiDServer) basically distributed this menu-based filesystem over a remote connection. -- Doug From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Apr 24 21:52:05 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: paper tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13350500959.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [What the hell?] And, pray tell, WHY were you eating paper tape? I hope it was something you had a backup of... ------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Fri Apr 24 22:59:55 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty References: <19980424183630.8052.qmail@hotmail.com> <3541203B.1486A5EB@cnct.com> Message-ID: <35415FBB.9E40A401@bbtel.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Max Eskin wrote: > > > In general, I would say that the amount of old machines is greater > > than a given reasonable estimate (ie there's always one more). > > Also, I'm wondering how many simple cash registers will have to be > > taken out of service. > > The _simple_ cash registers will keep plugging along doing what they > do best. As far as I can tell, they're not particularly sensitive > to what century they're in. The complex fancy new-fangled registers > are a whole nother story -- anybody know what types of systems are > most used at the other end of the cables attached to the laser > bar-code readers? Not an industry I've dealt with much except as a > consumer. (I know damned well there are a few NCR registers still > in service from the 19th century -- they should make the transition > to the 21st without a hickup.) I just cleaned and overhauled a register that my grandfather used in his shop from 1925 through 1987 when he died (retired I guess too) and it hasn't a problem with what year it is since that's not even on there. Pricing is all there is, like a 3 ton printing calculator. The puppy has sides made of solid brass that are 3/8" thick and a base of iron 1" thick. Anyone ever see a store video where a robber grabs one of those and runs? Not likely. I also worked over a Sharp countertop electronic register for a customer - completely standalone machine. The date is inthe format of a two digit year that can go from 00-99 so it won't be a problem either. I was messing with a clone XT the other day and was curious about this. I reset the date to 01-01-2000 and it was ok with it. The bios was an AMD and it was dated 1984. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From engine at chac.org Fri Apr 24 22:04:31 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Tony's taste for (of) paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980424200431.00f87100@pop.batnet.com> At 19:34 4/24/98 -0700, Sam wrote: >On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: >> I've eaten it... Tastes horrible (particularly the oiled stuff), but I'm >> here to tell you about it. Ditto floppy disks, BTW.... >> >> -tony > >Were you accidentally locked into a computer supply closet over a weekend >or something? Nah, he saw an old computer he wanted REALLY WEDGED into the back of a storage locker and he was chewing his way to it. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 24 22:35:20 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads Message-ID: <199804250335.AA15764@world.std.com> < :> I have: 1802, SC/MP, 6800, 6809, NEC D78PG11, 8748/9, 8751, < :>8080/8085, z80, z180, z280, z8002, z8001, 808x, 8018x, 80286, < :>80386, 80486 and the micro version of minis 6100(pdp-8), < :>6120(PDP-8+EMA) TI9900, PDP11(T-11, F11, J-11). < < :Showoff :-) No 8008? I always wanted a 4004 (anyone listening out < :there, that's a hint) and an SC/MP. Anybody remember Fairchild F8's The 8008 doesn't count as it's not operational. I only have the cpu card out of my first design. ;-) Same for the 2901/2911 based hardware and the 29116 board. I also have an ADVICE, thats a VAX (78032 chip) on a board for in circuit emulation. I keep forgetting it. Strange board! F8/3870 yes, never desgned with it but I had to know it to compete. Allison From rexstout at uswest.net Fri Apr 24 22:38:24 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty In-Reply-To: <35415FBB.9E40A401@bbtel.com> References: <19980424183630.8052.qmail@hotmail.com> <3541203B.1486A5EB@cnct.com> Message-ID: >I just cleaned and overhauled a register that my grandfather used in his >shop from 1925 through 1987 when he died (retired I guess too) and it >hasn't a problem with what year it is since that's not even on there. >Pricing is all there is, like a 3 ton printing calculator. The puppy has >sides made of solid brass that are 3/8" thick and a base of iron 1" >thick. Cool! There seem to be a lot of those nice old registers around, too... Or maybe they just end up in use more than other old objects(or at least used in the open... Or whatever.). >Anyone ever see a store video where a robber grabs one of those >and runs? Not likely. ROTFLOL! You never know... Stupider(??? Doesn't look right, but I can't think of anything else) things have happened... i remember seeing a video on TV of some guys trying to take out a large safe by dragging it out with a car... Or maybe it was an ATM. Or maybe it happens a lot and was both... Speaking of cash registers, I see some that I would love to get my hands on... And the scary part is that I just want the case! OK, I'll probably use the display, too.. But those keyboards would probably go. What I want to do is either put a laptop into one, put a packet terminal into it, or maybe both(easy enough... with the laptop you can do packet and use the computer!). Oh yeah, don't forget to put a radio in there! Or at least connections for an external radio... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 24 21:25:19 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: Tony Duell "Re: Re[2]: Replies to various threads" (Apr 25, 1:39) References: Message-ID: <9804250325.ZM845@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 25, 1:39, Tony Duell wrote: > Allison wrote: > > I have: 1802, SC/MP, 6800, 6809, NEC D78PG11, 8748/9, 8751, 8080/8085, > > z80, z180, z280, z8002, z8001, 808x, 8018x, 80286, 80386, 80486 and the > > micro version of minis 6100(pdp-8), 6120(PDP-8+EMA) TI9900, PDP11(T-11, > > F11, J-11). > Let's see how I do : > > Ones I have : (possibly embedded, but I've designed machines round a > number of these...) > > SC/MP, 8008, 8080, 1802, 8085, Z80, 64180, 8086, 8088, 80286, 80386, 80486, > 68000, 68010, 68020, 68040, T212 (or maybe T225), T425, T801, T805, > PIC16C84, PIC17C42, F11, J11, 6502, 6809, 6800, 6803, 4040, 8048 (and > 8035), 8051 (and 8031, 8032), ARM2, ARM3, R2000, 6120, Z8001, 32016, 2901 > etc (does that count), 3001 etc (ditto), and doubtless more that I've > forgotten... I can't beat that... 8008, 8085, 8088, 8086, 80186, 80286, 80386, 80486, V20, Z80, Z8, Z8001 (but in foam, not a system), 6502, 65C12, 6800, 6809 (in foam), 68HC11, 8032, 8035, 8048, 68000, 68010, 68020, assorted PICs, ARM2, ARM3, R4600, Sparc, 2901, D11, F11, T11, J11, 6100, and probably a few embedded "things" and others I've forgotten, but I wouldn't claim to have programmed all of them. However, what's surprising about these lists is not what's there, but what's missing. What's a 3001, BTW? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 24 22:46:26 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza "About the Wang '669 patent" (Apr 24, 21:50) References: Message-ID: <9804250446.ZM917@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 24, 21:50, Doug Yowza wrote: > Subject: About the Wang '669 patent > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > If you haven't seen the news yet, I found out thanks to http://slashdot.org > > , Microsoft is pulling one of their dirtiest stunts ever in their attempt > > to destroy Netscape. If anyone doesn't think Microsoft is evil this should > > convince them, unless they are niave enough to think Microsoft isn't behind > > this! > > What makes you think the Evil Empire is behind this? Did Microsoft buy > Wang recently? If not, they'll get hit with the same suit. They "formed a partnership" which, amongst other things, involved the exchange of some $90,000,000. > It sounds like the Wang patent basically covers rendering formatted > information on a terminal that was acquired via a remote connection. So, > what was the closest thing to a Web browser before 1993? GRiD fan that I > am, I vote for the 1982 GRiD/OS and remote GRiDCentral. GRiD/OS had a > form and menu based OS interface and actions were based on the file type > and extension. GRiDCentral (and the LAN-based GRiDServer) basically > distributed this menu-based filesystem over a remote connection. The Wang patent relates to videotex terminals, exactly the stuff that British Telecom developed in the 1970s and pushed hard (as PRESTEL) in the early 80s. Prestel was organised a little like an ISP, with various "IP"s (information providers) renting space in which they creating "frames" of text and (chunky) graphics which were accessible by modem. IPs could sublet space, too, so individuals could rent just a single frame if they wanted. In 1982 PRESTEL launched a service called Micronet800, which used thousands of pages on PRESTEL servers to store microcomputer related news, software, etc, and started selling software to enable home micros to dial up and display/load/save these pages. Actually, stuff for micros had been around on PRESTEL before that, but spring 1982 was when it took off. I got my software and modem that summer. Most of the modems were simple devices built in to an acoustic coupler, fondly known as agnostic complicators. PRESTEL itself didn't make use of file extensions, but obviously some of the micro systesm that accessed it did. CP/M has always based certain actions on file types and extensions, for example. It did use menus of links, and the links between frames, could be quite arbitrary (and tangled!) just like the web. There was even a command to go back one or more frames, and there were "response" frames and a mail system and ... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dastar at wco.com Fri Apr 24 23:22:24 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > The problem is, Wang is sueing them for something that almost EVERY piece > > of software available does! Netscape needs examples of software that do > > the things in the patent prior to March 30th, 1983. > > It sounds like the Wang patent basically covers rendering formatted > information on a terminal that was acquired via a remote connection. So, > what was the closest thing to a Web browser before 1993? GRiD fan that I > am, I vote for the 1982 GRiD/OS and remote GRiDCentral. GRiD/OS had a > form and menu based OS interface and actions were based on the file type > and extension. GRiDCentral (and the LAN-based GRiDServer) basically > distributed this menu-based filesystem over a remote connection. There were also hi-res BBS systems, at least in the Apple ][ realm, whereby graphics commands would be sent down the line to render screens on the hi-res display. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/23/98] From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sat Apr 25 02:29:40 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199804250729.RAA05129@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:50 PM 24-04-98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote: >It sounds like the Wang patent basically covers rendering formatted >information on a terminal that was acquired via a remote connection. So, >what was the closest thing to a Web browser before 1993? GRiD fan that I >am, I vote for the 1982 GRiD/OS and remote GRiDCentral. GRiD/OS had a >form and menu based OS interface and actions were based on the file type >and extension. GRiDCentral (and the LAN-based GRiDServer) basically >distributed this menu-based filesystem over a remote connection. How about the CAI system that CDC had (I can't remember the name off hand at the moment - I think my brain is broken - I couldn't even remember the brand name of some wine I wanted to buy yesterday... Will chewing on a floppy disk or two improve things :-). From my limited exposure it's likely that the CDC thingy :-) had a browser style interface. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfa keeps me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From peacock at simconv.com Sat Apr 25 02:44:48 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: CDC thingy (was Re: About the Wang '669 patent) Message-ID: <01bd701e$05d38540$64ac31cf@foggy> >How about the CAI system that CDC had (I can't remember the name off hand >at the moment - I think my brain is broken - I couldn't even remember the >brand name of some wine I wanted to buy yesterday... Will chewing on a >floppy disk or two improve things :-). From my limited exposure it's likely >that the CDC thingy :-) had a browser style interface. > I saw a CDC demo of that once circa 1974, as I recall it was called "Plato", used a nice orange plasma display, limited animation, astronomical price. CDC had grandiose plans it would be used in schools, like every high school in the country could afford a $2 million CDC 6600 to support it. Kinda sad actually, once Cray left CDC they didn't have a clue as to what to do afterwards, the big iron Cyber 6000s went nowhere, the company wound up running payroll services (the remnants of CDC are now known as Ceridian, a batch payroll services company). Jack Peacock From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sat Apr 25 04:45:41 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: 4004 (was Re[2]: Replies to various threads) Message-ID: <01bd702e$e8fad0c0$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> > >Showoff :-) No 8008? I always wanted a 4004 (anyone listening out there, I have an Intel Component Data Catalogue from about 1978 that still lists it as being available then. A 4 bit microprocessor wouldn't have been very useful in a computer so might we find them as controllers in washing machines, microwaves and the like? From cgregory at lrbcg.com Sat Apr 25 06:18:39 1998 From: cgregory at lrbcg.com (Cliff Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: C64 3 1/2" drive Message-ID: <000a01bd703b$e729ce60$c727a2ce@cliffgre> The highly sought after Commodore 1581 (3 1/2") drive is worth anywhere from $50. - $80. depending upon condition (power supply included). Post a message as to it's availability in comp.sys.cbm, and you'll have all kinds of offers. Cliff Gregory cgregory@lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Cgregory Date: Friday, April 24, 1998 10:15 PM Subject: C64 3 1/2" drive > >Just turned up a Commodore 3 1/2" drive -- didn't know they existed! Anyone >interested? > >Also, some strange thing with 4 hand held units with 4 buttons each, which >plugs into the joystick port. No software. > >manney@lrbcg.com > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 25 07:55:31 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: 4004 (was Re[2]: Replies to various threads) Message-ID: <199804251255.AA07635@world.std.com> <> Allison wrote: <> > I have: 1802, SC/MP, 6800, 6809, NEC D78PG11, 8748/9, 8751, 8080/8085 <> > z80, z180, z280, z8002, z8001, 808x, 8018x, 80286, 80386, 80486 and t <> > micro version of minis 6100(pdp-8), 6120(PDP-8+EMA) TI9900, PDP11(T-1 <> > F11, J-11). By and large including the 8008 and VAX I've programmed and designed with all. The key thing is I have working examples of all but the 8008. Drat, I forgot the NEC unique 4 bitters the uCOM4 and ucom75 series designed them into and programmed them as well. References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980425084736.007f61f0@wingate> At 09:50 PM 4/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > [snippies] > >What makes you think the Evil Empire is behind this? Did Microsoft buy >Wang recently? If not, they'll get hit with the same suit. > [s] >-- Doug Have a look at http://www.mozilla.org/. From william at ans.net Sat Apr 25 10:01:21 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: CDC thingy (was Re: About the Wang '669 patent) In-Reply-To: <01bd701e$05d38540$64ac31cf@foggy> Message-ID: > I saw a CDC demo of that once circa 1974, as I recall it was > called "Plato", used a nice orange plasma display, limited > animation, astronomical price. CDC had grandiose plans it would > be used in schools, like every high school in the country could > afford a $2 million CDC 6600 to support it. I think Plato ran on smaller platforms as well. > Kinda sad actually, > once Cray left CDC they didn't have a clue as to what to do > afterwards, the big iron Cyber 6000s went nowhere, the company > wound up running payroll services (the remnants of CDC are now > known as Ceridian, a batch payroll services company). I do not know if I would say "went nowhere" - the line survived, at least as an evolution, until the late 1970s. They made CDC money for a little while, anyway. Most CDC machines have always been very fast (often the fastest of the day) and tough, but always a bit behind the times. They refused to upgrade the line in key areas, most notably their addressing range. In the late 1970s, management finally realized this and the Cyber 180 was born - a fast mainframe that actually was innovative and modern, but way too late. I think Seymour Cray was a bit to blame as well, as his machines were also very fast, but lacking in some areas. The Cray-1s have quite a limitted memory, and no virtual memory behind it, making problems with very large sets of data difficult. The Cray-2s have a very poor method of interprocessor communication. Having Chen look over Cray's designs, resulting in the X/MP and Y/MP (and C90s, T90s, etc.), was the key, resulting in a family of first-class machines. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at wco.com Sat Apr 25 12:23:53 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: First speaker announced for VCF2 Message-ID: The first speaker has been confirmed for VCF2 this September. David Rutland was an engineer on a lesser known but very significant computer dedicated in 1950 called the SWAC (National Bureau of Standards Western Automatic Computer). You can check out his bio on the Vintage Computer Festival web page: http://www.siconic.com/vcf Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 25 12:02:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: <9804250325.ZM845@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 25, 98 02:25:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1650 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980425/81cd07a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 25 12:04:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: paper tape In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 24, 98 07:34:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980425/093c19ee/attachment.ksh From joakimkjellander at hotmail.com Sat Apr 25 17:00:23 1998 From: joakimkjellander at hotmail.com (joakim kjellander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <19980425220023.28777.qmail@hotmail.com> Dear sir`s. I want to move a harddisk from a PCXT to a PCAT and add it to the existing harddisk in my PCAT. Do you know how that can be done? With kind regards. Joaki Kjellander. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Sat Apr 25 17:06:34 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: TTY available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anybody local to Silicon Valley looking for a pretty good floor-standing TTY? I'll give details to the first respondent. (I'd get it myself if I had room for it.) -- Doug From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Apr 25 17:23:43 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Info on Teletek SBC-1 Message-ID: <003301bd7098$e7fb7c00$6e21a7cd@bothell> Hello, all: Does anyone have info on a Teletek SBC-1 Z80-based single-board computer? Copyright is 1981. It's loaded except for RAM (from what I can see). It has a Z80 CPU, PIO, SIO, and CTC. There are a couple of blank sockets, and a TMM2016P-2 memory chip (a 2716??). It appears to be built on a S-100 card. Thanks! Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From engine at chac.org Sat Apr 25 16:58:11 1998 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980425145811.00f39c70@pop.batnet.com> At 18:04 4/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >It was a bet. I was a student. The prize was a computer system that I >didn't already have. I am insane. Is that enough? > >-tony So, in a metaphorical sense, I got it exactly __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Apr 25 18:20:52 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty In-Reply-To: Christian Fandt's message of Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:08:10 -0400 References: <199804241513.LAA26564@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: <199804252320.QAA11530@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Christian Fandt writes: > Kip, is that magazine online anywhere? I haven't heard of it myself. http://www.chac.org/chengine.html ftp://ftp.batnet.com/people/chac/ftp/pub/engine12.txt -Frank McConnell From william at ans.net Sat Apr 25 18:38:56 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 Message-ID: Anyone (finger points at Allison) have any stories about them? It looked fairly serious. William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 25 20:39:10 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Anyone (finger points at Allison) have any stories about them? It looked >fairly serious. Is that one of the printers that holds an entire box of wide format paper, and is about 3x6x6 feet in size? I used to work with a couple Honeywell Printers that size, and I know DEC made a simular model. On the Honeywell printers, you dreaded a paper jam, especially if you didn't catch it immediatly. It could pile up half a box of paper in the top of the printer enclosure before you could get it stopped. Then there were the "Paper Parties" that the day shift had, where we had to haul 20-40 boxes of paper out to the computer room and stack it in a large pile. Thankfully I usually worked the Evening and Midnight shifts, due to personal preference. These "Paper Parties" were tame to the smaller ones on the Aircraft Carrier I was on, there you had to climb up and down the ladders with these large boxes of paper, and carry them over half the length of the ship. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Apr 25 19:40:35 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980425174035.0088f950@agora.rdrop.com> Ok, since I intend to use this thing to work on computer related gear older than 10 years old (my 083 card sorter for example), I'm proclaiming this inquiry off-limits for random flamage! B^} Does anyone out there have info (like the tube/switch charts) for an EICO Model 635 portable tube tester? I've picked up one that is in very good shape, but is otherwise useless without the charts for switch settings. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 25 20:59:01 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: About the Wang '669 patent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >What makes you think the Evil Empire is behind this? Did Microsoft buy >Wang recently? If not, they'll get hit with the same suit. I think the fact the following URL exists says it all http://microsoft.wang.com/ Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sat Apr 25 19:56:41 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 25, 98 07:38:56 pm Message-ID: <199804260056.UAA19834@shell.monmouth.com> > > Anyone (finger points at Allison) have any stories about them? It looked > fairly serious. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > The LP25's were Dataproducts Band printers... the serious fun was the LP04, LP05, LP06, and LP10 drums. The band printers were very reliable (LP25=300 lpm, LP26=600 lpm). Dataproducts called them the B300 and B600 band printers. The big band printer was the LP27 which was about 1000-1200 lpm. Bill (who hated working on the LP05 shuttle printer -- but could live with the LP06, LP2x stuff. +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From dastar at wco.com Sat Apr 25 20:17:18 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > Anyone (finger points at Allison) have any stories about them? It looked > fairly serious. I was in my local Honda dealership the other day and they were using old-assed DEC line-printers on their PC network (don't know which model). I asked the guy about them and he basically said that yeah, they're as old as the hills. But one started printing my invoice and I realized why they kept them...they are FAST. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From william at ans.net Sat Apr 25 20:42:05 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Junk sale Message-ID: ...mostly because I do not want to throw the stuff out/scrap it... (1) Miniscribe 8425SA drive, removed from a Mac Plus. I assume it works still, but do not quote me on that. It seemed to power up fine just a few minutes ago. The Mac was in very poor condition, so that got scrapped. (1) Kaypro 81-045-02 PeeCee. This appears to be their version of the XT (oh, joy), but unlike most clones, is a little better built. It uses no motherboard, just a passive backplane with a CPU card. This one has a 20 meg Seagate drive and a Samsung (yuck!) CGA tube. It works, and has only DOS 5.0 on it. The nice thing about this is that most of the chips are socketed! (5) Ink ribbons for the IBM 5103 printer. Still sealed, these come with a goofy plastic glove for the CE. OK, so there are probably not even five 5103s left in the world... (1) Computer Wharehouse Store catalog, Spring-Summer 1977. SWTPC! Imsai! Kim-1! $1200 floppy drives! A slice from the "good old days" of the micro. The pages are a bit yellow, but in good shape. The cover is also nice, but the previous owner scribbled his name on the top. Really, if _anyone_ wants any of this stuff, speak up and make a SILLY offer. I will ship anything but the Kaypro (I could deliver it to RCS/RI in Providence, RI, however). Trades are good for the stuff as well. Not first come first serve - I will decide "winners" in a day or two, just to give those with restricted or slow email a chance. William Donzelli Carmel, NY 10512 william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sat Apr 25 20:45:00 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980425174035.0088f950@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > Ok, since I intend to use this thing to work on computer related gear older > than 10 years old (my 083 card sorter for example), I'm proclaiming this > inquiry off-limits for random flamage! B^} EEEEEEEWWWWW! Eico! Use a real tube tester (TV-7*/U or the like)! > Does anyone out there have info (like the tube/switch charts) for an EICO > Model 635 portable tube tester? I've picked up one that is in very good > shape, but is otherwise useless without the charts for switch settings. What tubes do you need to test? I could post the numbers to the Boatanchors list, and someone will probably have the settings on hand. William Donzelli william@ans.net From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sat Apr 25 21:02:56 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 25, 98 06:17:18 pm Message-ID: <199804260202.WAA12415@shell.monmouth.com> > > On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Anyone (finger points at Allison) have any stories about them? It looked > > fairly serious. > > I was in my local Honda dealership the other day and they were using > old-assed DEC line-printers on their PC network (don't know which model). > I asked the guy about them and he basically said that yeah, they're as old > as the hills. But one started printing my invoice and I realized why they > kept them...they are FAST. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com I'd bet they're DEC LA120 serial RS232 terminal printers. These things replaced a ton of Teletypes and their main competition was TI 8xx models. Were they DOT MATRIX? I'll bet they're not big old noisy line printers unless they're sound covered and about 4 feet tall. The DEC dot matrix stuff (except for the Printronix based P300 stuff that DEC rebadged) were the greatest console printers ever built. I'd love to put an LA120 on my PC here running FreeBSD. Unix begs for a real ASCII tty console. Bill From dastar at wco.com Sun Apr 26 00:36:59 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 In-Reply-To: <199804260202.WAA12415@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > I was in my local Honda dealership the other day and they were using > > old-assed DEC line-printers on their PC network (don't know which model). > > I asked the guy about them and he basically said that yeah, they're as old > > as the hills. But one started printing my invoice and I realized why they > > kept them...they are FAST. > > I'd bet they're DEC LA120 serial RS232 terminal printers. These things > replaced a ton of Teletypes and their main competition was TI 8xx models. I think that is exactly correct. > Were they DOT MATRIX? I'll bet they're not big old noisy line printers unless > they're sound covered and about 4 feet tall. Yes they were dot matrix. I always equated line printers with dot matrix printers. Is there a difference? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Apr 26 01:34:56 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:32 2005 Subject: What a haul! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980425233456.00e22c10@mail.wa.jps.net> Indeed, what a haul (at least if you're into DEC stuff). Thanks to the kindly folk at St. Martin's College about 40 miles south of me, I am now the proud owner of: * A PDP-11/44 and its rack... * A Fujitsu 'Eagle' drive (and it's weight!) * A Cipher 880 front-loader tape drive... * Numerous distribution tapes for several versions of RSTS/E, including one for ver. 9.7(!)... * Various bits of documentation. Unfortunately, not a lot on RSTS itself (much of it got trashed along with the -- get this -- distribution kit for RSTS 10! Dang, I was pissed when I heard about that...) And, thanks to my friends at RE-PC, I have also acquired a pair of M4 Data model 9914 9-track SCSI tape drives. These are neat boxes! Quad density (800/1600/3200/6250), autoloading, neat front panel with alphanumeric display, etc. It's been a busy weekend. Now, if you'll pardon me, I need to go collapse and snore my brains out. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 26 02:47:20 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? References: Message-ID: <3542E688.7EF45A0@bbtel.com> William Donzelli wrote: > >Use a real tube tester (TV-7*/U or the like)! > > > Does anyone out there have info (like the tube/switch charts) for an EICO > > Model 635 portable tube tester? I've picked up one that is in very good > > shape, but is otherwise useless without the charts for switch settings. > > What tubes do you need to test? I could post the numbers to the > Boatanchors list, and someone will probably have the settings on hand. You can check with AG Tannenbaum about the possibiity of a manual or copy, or check the links to other manual sellers for test equipment. They have a web page at http://www.agtannenbaum.com/ Linda Perkins at the Manuals Merchant can usually get what you need as well as Ed Matsuda, both in San Diego. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Apr 25 23:33:01 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980425174035.0088f950@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199804260830.EAA07780@smtp.interlog.com> On 25 Apr 98 at 21:45, William Donzelli wrote: > > Ok, since I intend to use this thing to work on computer related gear older > > than 10 years old (my 083 card sorter for example), I'm proclaiming this > > inquiry off-limits for random flamage! B^} > > EEEEEEEWWWWW! Eico! > > Use a real tube tester (TV-7*/U or the like)! > Why does this remind me of a PC newsgroup post ? : ^ )) EICO was considered higher quality than Heath Kits audio gear and made excellent test equipment for the home-tech market in the tube era. Many old-tube enthusiasts still use them . NOS tubes go at a higher premium than the only available new Sovtech or defective Chinese ones cause they're better quality. Why not use equipment extant to when they were produced ? And will any of the logic analysers, for example, of the present era still be functional in the year 2040 ? Even more off-topic; but many high-end audio people are spending big bucks for tube-emulators to breathe the life into their digital CDs., that I get, matter of course, on my 45 year old EICO tube amps. > > Does anyone out there have info (like the tube/switch charts) for an EICO > > Model 635 portable tube tester? I've picked up one that is in very good > > shape, but is otherwise useless without the charts for switch settings. > I have a model 625 I use for old audio equipment. If it's anything like my m.625 they're a neat little machine. They do the job. I don't know if the settings are the same for the 635. Ask on rec.audio.tubes and/or rec.audio and someone should know. If so I'll see if I can get a scan of my sheets and send them on to you. > What tubes do you need to test? I could post the numbers to the > Boatanchors list, and someone will probably have the settings on hand. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bill I'm shocked. Hope that list name was chosen in derision of the throw-away generation. : ^ )) > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From yowza at yowza.com Sun Apr 26 03:56:06 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: MINDSET In-Reply-To: <199804260830.EAA07780@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: Does anybody have a MINDSET computer? I vaguely recall these as the first multimedia PC from the early 80's. I just found a stereo module for one, and now I'm in search of the rest of one :-) Also found this weekend, a Roland CM-32L "LA SOUND MODULE" MIDI thing from the late 80's (I'm still looking for an ARP 2600 synth, BTW), and a pristine copy of the Clocksin and Mellish Prolog book. I'm not having much luck finding complete "interesting" systems, but I also found an A/C adapter for an EO :-) -- Doug From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Apr 26 04:19:30 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Logic State Analyser Message-ID: <01bd70f4$6b5055c0$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I have been rearranging my storage area and uncovered a HP 1611A Logic State Analyser fitted with a Z80 option that I picked up a few years ago. I have no idea what one would do with this. Should I cherish it? Play with it? Does one need the specific manual or are these generic and perhaps explained in standard texts? There are a number of plugin points for various types of probes, none of which I have off course. It powers up fine though. From yowza at yowza.com Sun Apr 26 04:46:30 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Logic State Analyser In-Reply-To: <01bd70f4$6b5055c0$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Olminkhof wrote: > I have been rearranging my storage area and uncovered a HP 1611A Logic State > Analyser fitted with a Z80 option that I picked up a few years ago. > > I have no idea what one would do with this. Should I cherish it? Play with > it? > Does one need the specific manual or are these generic and perhaps explained > in standard texts? > > There are a number of plugin points for various types of probes, none of > which I have off course. It powers up fine though. If you don't have the probes, it won't be very interesting to play with. Unless the Z80 option includes a pod that attaches to a Z80, then you should cherish it :-) The only LA I've used was an Arium ML4100, but you should be able to do interesting things without a manual. You'll probably need the specific HP manual if you want to set complex triggers, but you should be able to do some simple CPU tracing without the manual (I would think). -- Doug From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 26 05:35:21 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: microprocessors - was Re[2]: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: Tony Duell "Re: Re[2]: Replies to various threads" (Apr 25, 18:02) References: Message-ID: <9804261135.ZM13731@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 25, 18:02, Tony Duell wrote: > I missed a few... D11, T11, 68030, HP Saturn, 7811 (if we're counting > embedded chips that we've never programmed :-)), 8x305, Z8, probably other > 650x and 680x chips embedded in things. Can I count the CPU array chips > in a DAP, please . > > > However, what's surprising about these lists is not what's there, but > > what's missing. > > What do you think I should have included? I may just have forgotten I > used it... I didn't quite mean that :-) I was just interested to note that some micros that were once well-known aren't well-represented in your list, or Allison's, or mine. Only one occurrence of the 9900, no F8, only one Cosmac, ... Perhaps three people is just too small a sample to show all of the ones that faded from popularity (and maybe nobody else here is interested :-)) Not a lot of DSPs either, though of course they're more "modern". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Apr 26 05:52:53 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Logic State Analyser Message-ID: <01bd7101$76b325c0$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >Unless the Z80 option includes a pod that attaches to a Z80, then you Is this "pod" something that clamps over an installed CPU? There is a test socket for something like this. May attach to an edge connector at the back marked "Microprocessor Probe". From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 26 05:25:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 25, 98 09:45:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1180 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980426/3c0736ea/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 26 09:29:56 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 Message-ID: <199804261429.AA21709@world.std.com> <> I missed a few... D11, T11, 68030, HP Saturn, 7811 (if we're counting <> embedded chips that we've never programmed :-)), 8x305, Z8, probably < Does anyone have info on a Teletek SBC-1 Z80-based single-board Hey folks, While I've got a 68000/08/10/ book, I'm in need of some documentation for the 68881 which comes built in to the 68030. I checked at Quantum books (next to MIT - _THE_ place to check around here) among several other technical book stores. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find it for sale anywhere... seems like the 68k like has really died the hard death. Soooo, if anyone has an extra copy they're interested in selling please contact me. Thanks! --jmg From gram at cnct.com Sun Apr 26 10:57:01 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: paper tape References: Message-ID: <3543594D.F9239A06@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > [paper tape] > > > > I've eaten it... Tastes horrible (particularly the oiled stuff), but I'm > > > here to tell you about it. Ditto floppy disks, BTW. So it's probably not > > Were you accidentally locked into a computer supply closet over a weekend > > or something? > > To answer all these questions at once... > > It was a bet. I was a student. The prize was a computer system that I > didn't already have. I am insane. Is that enough? It's a start. (I had less incentive when I swam across Lake Opeche in New Hampshire a week after the ice melted when I was 16 -- I wasn't insane yet, merely stupid, as the water in that lake never reaches 40 degrees Farenheit at the best of times). -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From william at ans.net Sun Apr 26 11:05:49 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? In-Reply-To: <199804260830.EAA07780@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: > EICO was considered higher quality than Heath Kits audio gear and made > excellent test equipment for the home-tech market in the tube era. Many > old-tube enthusiasts still use them . Yes, better than Heathkits, but these days even the high quality stuff is cheap and available (HP, Tektronix, Boonton, General-Radio, etc.). Of course, the one place where you will have to spend money on old test equipment _is_ that of tube testers, mostly due to the audiophiles. If you can get a good old Hickok for less than $150, you should jump on it. > Bill I'm shocked. Hope that list name was chosen in derision of the throw-away > generation. : ^ )) The name came about by all of the smartass hams at the hamfests that would watch some of us lug 90 pound tube radios back to our cars ("hey, where did you get the boatanchor!"), while they had whole Kenwood stations that would fit in a fairly small box. Of course, they would really start laughing when we would have to go back to get the 40 pound power supplies. Anyway, I really wonder how good most (all?) tube testers would be for digital logic applications. All of the good testers I can think of do a fine job on emmision, shorts, and gas, but the gm test generally is fairly dumb - a steady 60 Hz (sometimes 1 kHz) fed into the grid, and look at the output. That is exactly what logic circuits do not do. The Tek tube curve tracer (model 577 or 565 - help! I can not remember) would be very good, but you would have to sell your Imsai and Altair to pay for one. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Apr 26 11:13:57 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You mean an AVO Mk4 Valve Characteristic Meter, surely :-). A very nice > instrument that'll test just about any valve with 9 pins of fewer, and > will do proper mutual conductance tests. If it can do the job, sure! Of course, it probably only has sockets for those weird British valves with the "interesting" bases (like the almost-Octal socket)! > Or, if you want an _interesting_ instrument, look at the Mullard High > Speed Valve Tester. It's controlled by (special) punched cards. They have > a 14*10 matrix of holes which allow contacts to make in the card reader > assembly. Said contacts link the appropriate pins of the valveholder to > the right points in the circuit, select the appropriate transformer taps > for the heater voltage and set the other electrode voltages using > resistive ladder DACs (see, this is almost on-topic...). Pity it's only > an emission tester. Hickock made one like that called a "Cardmatic". Find the card, throw it in the slot, the thing makes a loud CLUNK, and you are all set to go. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Apr 26 11:16:52 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: microprocessors - was Re[2]: Replies to various threads In-Reply-To: <199804261430.AA22070@world.std.com> Message-ID: > The RCA1802 was sort of a square egg. It had popularity for a short > while. People lost interest after that, partly as RCA discontinued > it by the mid 80s. Also because it was slow and had a relatively > poor(primitive) instruction set and a total lack of high level languages > other than tinybasic. Apparently the satellite people liked them because of their low power requirments. Several companies (maybe RCA itself) produced rad-hard versions. William Donzelli william@ans.net From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Apr 26 11:25:15 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sat, 25 Apr 1998 22:36:59 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199804261625.JAA13643@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > Yes they were dot matrix. I always equated line printers with dot matrix > printers. Is there a difference? When someone says Line Printer I think of something with the type on a chain (or a drum) and the ribbon in front of the paper, and then a bunch of hammers behind the paper. When the right character is in front of the right position, the printer fires the hammer for that position and pushes the paper up against the ribbon and chain/drum. But the real definition is in how much data you have to send to the printer to get it printing. If you have to give it a full line to get it going then it's a line printer. If you only have to give it a character to make it print then it isn't. -Frank McConnell From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 26 13:00:11 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 In-Reply-To: References: <199804260202.WAA12415@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: >> Were they DOT MATRIX? I'll bet they're not big old noisy line printers >>unless >> they're sound covered and about 4 feet tall. > >Yes they were dot matrix. I always equated line printers with dot matrix >printers. Is there a difference? Just slightly :^) The line printers I'm most familiar with were about 6 feet wide, 3 feet deep, 5 or 6 feet high, in a sound proof enclosure, and were impact printers. IIRC the biggest I worked on was an impact printer with each character a single link in a belt that made up a long loop. There were multiple instances of the same character in the belt, and it whirled around real fast, with a hammer behind it ramming it into the roll of inked fabric (messy stuff). It could to single or multipart paper. The paper sat in the bottom of the printer, and then the printer pulled it up and shot it out the back into a stacker. I somehow doubt it's possible for a dot matrix to even come close to the speed of a good line printer. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From emu at ecubics.com Sun Apr 26 12:24:13 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: WANTED: MC68[34]0 programmers reference manual Message-ID: <19980426171223.AAA3031@2Cust13.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi, ---------- > From: J. Maynard Gelinas > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: WANTED: MC68[34]0 programmers reference manual > Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 10:02 AM > > Hey folks, > > While I've got a 68000/08/10/ book, I'm in need of some > documentation for the 68881 which comes built in to the 68030. this was new to me ;-)) serious: 68881 is a co-pro for 68020 68882 is a co-pro for 68030 most parts of a 68881 are built in 68040 68030 has the MMU built in (not all types !!) > I checked at Quantum books (next to MIT - _THE_ place to check > around here) among several other technical book stores. > Unfortunately, I can't seem to find it for sale > anywhere... seems like the 68k like has really died the hard > death. Soooo, if anyone has an extra copy they're interested > in selling please contact me. check the motorola semiconductor webpage. You should find all information you need there. cheers, emanuel From william at ans.net Sun Apr 26 12:17:47 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Junk sale (new offer) Message-ID: If nobody wants the Kaypro PeeCee, I suppose I could pull all of the cards out for interested parties and ship them. If, however, someone wants the machine whole, obviously it will be kept whole. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Apr 26 12:20:41 1998 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: week ended pretty good Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980426122041.006bd41c@pop3.concentric.net> Had a pretty good week getting more items for the museum, from ebay I go Newton messagepad model H1000 with all the manuals, stickers, video, and other items that came with it when new; a Magic Mike II Robot from 1984 model-8; from ebay a Mac Portable with carrying case not working at this time, put in new batteries and still nothing;two items I got at police auction Saturday Mac PowerBook Duo230 and Duo Dock, and A US Robotics pilot 5000 missing a few item but powers on these are not 10 years old yet but I got them anyway as they will be someday;HP 4940A Transmission Impairment unit, SUN 3/50 loaded; HP98785A monitor not tested ($5); early Mac mouse M0100; Mac Plus manuals;HP 150 model 45611A; Apple RGB model A9M0308 used with IIe or IIgs a odd shaped model; Time-Life The Personal Computer book with lots of nice pictures of classic units; also their Computer Basics book; HP 100/Personal Card file manual; HP 150 Terminal Users guide; HP Personal Computer Owners guide; IBM PC an Introduction by Larry Joel Goldstein and Martin Goldstein 1984; Making the Most of Your ZX81 by Tim Hartnell 1981; The ZX81 Companion by Robert Maunder 1981; 49 Explossive Games fo the ZX81 by Tim Hartnell 1981; Microcomputer Experimentation with the Intel SDK-85 by Lance Leventhal and Colin Walsh 1980;Socrates KB not tested yet; AT&T 6300 mono monitor; a complete set of manuals for the 6300; Commodore Buyers guide; Atari Logo reference manual; MAI systen cartridges; Daynafile guide and diskettes; Timex Sinclair 1016 memory module; Sinclair ZX81 basic programming manual; Commodore 1541C users guide; Sorates voice cartridge users manual 1988; Upgrading and repairing PC's by QUE 1988; HP87; and many other items that do not meet the 10 year rule but the prices were right get them now and hold until they do. Well that's my short list so Keep Computing John From emu at ecubics.com Sun Apr 26 12:36:40 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory Message-ID: <19980426172450.AAA13954@2Cust13.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi all, does anybody have a description of the jumpers & dil-switches ? thanks, emanuel From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Apr 26 12:36:46 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Freebies up for grabs! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980426103646.00e4b8f0@mail.wa.jps.net> Time to clean out at least part of my garage, especially in light of the new arrivals. All offerings are freebies, though it would be nice if I could get -something- in trade. ;-) Please bear in mind two things. 1). I cannot ship anything other than the books. The disk and tape drives are too darn big and heavy, and would require specialized packaging in any case. 2). Dave Jenner has first pick since he E-mailed me this morning before I posted the list. I'll post an update if he wants any of the stuff. With that in mind, I have the following to offer: 1). HP 7974 9-track vertical tape drive, with all mounting hardware. 1600 BPI, Pertec interface, supplied with the hardware to convert it (if desired) to a GPIB interface. Excellent condition, powers up and loads fine, have not actually tested it with a working system. 2). (Definitely a freebie!) 83-84 vintage System Industries SMD disk drive. Spins up, makes lots of noise, don't know if it works. Comes with mounting rails. 3). Cipher 880 tape drive, dual-density (1600/3200). Condition: Who knows? Freebie. 4). Books! I've got spare copies of: DEC's 'Microsystems Handbook' for 1985 DEC's 'Introduction to Minicomputer Networks' vintage 1974 Everex 'Step 386' owner's manual DEC PDP11 'Programming Card' quick-reference, vintage July 1975 DEC DHV11 Technical Manual. Any takers? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cad at gamewood.net Sun Apr 26 12:35:49 1998 From: cad at gamewood.net (Charles A. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 References: <199804260202.WAA12415@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <35437075.5B80@gamewood.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >> Were they DOT MATRIX? I'll bet they're not big old noisy line printers > >>unless > >> they're sound covered and about 4 feet tall. > > > >Yes they were dot matrix. I always equated line printers with dot matrix > >printers. Is there a difference? > > Just slightly :^) The line printers I'm most familiar with were about 6 > feet wide, 3 feet deep, 5 or 6 feet high, in a sound proof enclosure, and > were impact printers. > > IIRC the biggest I worked on was an impact printer with each character a > single link in a belt that made up a long loop. There were multiple > instances of the same character in the belt, and it whirled around real > fast, with a hammer behind it ramming it into the roll of inked fabric > (messy stuff). It could to single or multipart paper. The paper sat in > the bottom of the printer, and then the printer pulled it up and shot it > out the back into a stacker. > > I somehow doubt it's possible for a dot matrix to even come close to the > speed of a good line printer. > > Zane And then there was the 'Talley' line printer. A whole 132 charactior worth of a 'single dot'/charactor position metal 'comb'. The 'dot position' within the 'charactor cell' was determined by this 'comb' of 'dots' moving back and forth sideways (With a selenoid foring at the proper time [one solenoid at each charactor position.) With the verticle scanning of the charactor area accomplished by the paper tractor moving the paper one 'dots' worth at a time. This ment 77 impacts per charactor (for a 7x11 dot matrix) But that was also 77 impact times for the whole line, because ALL the dots that were lined up properly fired at the same time. Heavy!!! 200+ lbs. for a 132 col (17"?/19"?) 'desk top' printer. This is all from memory. It got sold before I left Calif. 18 years ago. Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- He, who will not reason, is a bigot; William Drumond, he, who cannot, is a fool; Scottish writer and he, who dares not, is a slave. (1585-1649) While he that does, is a free man! Joseph P. 1955- ----------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Davis / Sutherlin Industries FAX # (804) 799-0940 1973 Reeves Mill Road E-Mail -- cad@gamewood.net Sutherlin, Virginia 24594 Voice # (804) 799-5803 From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Apr 26 12:52:37 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Freebie update Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980426105237.00e4a270@mail.wa.jps.net> Sam Ismail has claimed the books I'd offered. The other items are still available. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at jps.net Sun Apr 26 13:02:37 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Freebie Update Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980426110237.00e4a250@mail.wa.jps.net> Dave Jenner has bowed out on all items in the list I posted. Sam has claimed the DEC books. The programming card and Everex book are still available, as are all the hardware items. Caveat emptor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From yowza at yowza.com Sun Apr 26 13:44:12 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Logic State Analyser In-Reply-To: <01bd7101$76b325c0$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Olminkhof wrote: > >Unless the Z80 option includes a pod that attaches to a Z80, then you > > Is this "pod" something that clamps over an installed CPU? There is a test > socket for something like this. May attach to an edge connector at the back > marked "Microprocessor Probe". The target end of the pod would either have a clamp for the CPU pins, or it would more likely have something that plugged into the CPU socket and then another socket that you plug the CPU into. If you have the thing that plugs into the "Microprocessor Probe" connection, you should be in good shape. Of course, if you can find the other probes, then the LA would be much more generally useful for just about any logic debugging. -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Sun Apr 26 13:48:54 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Junk sale (new offer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > If nobody wants the Kaypro PeeCee, I suppose I could pull all of the cards > out for interested parties and ship them. If, however, someone wants the > machine whole, obviously it will be kept whole. I remember Kaypro (Non-Linear Systems, wasn't it?) going up in flames when they couldn't manage the growth that came from the original Kaypro (they started hiring family members at all top positions in the company, and one analysis quipped that they had too many Kays and needed more pros :-). I don't remember ever seeing a desktop PC coming from them. Anybody know how rare this box is? Sounds like a keeper. -- Doug From william at ans.net Sun Apr 26 14:14:13 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Junk sale (new offer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't remember ever seeing a desktop PC coming from them. Anybody know > how rare this box is? Sounds like a keeper. That is exactly why I really do not want to junk the thing. Now any of you could have the thing for a song, but it just is quite large to ship (the shipping bill would probably be five times what the thing is worth!). Unless someone _really_ ($$$) wants it, I really do not want to ship it. Just about eveything else is unclaimed. Am I the only person on the list with an IBM 5103 printer (yes, it is the mate for the 5100)? William Donzelli Carmel, NY william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 26 16:03:39 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Kaypro PC's (was: Junk sale (new offer)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I remember Kaypro (Non-Linear Systems, wasn't it?) going up in flames when > >I don't remember ever seeing a desktop PC coming from them. Anybody know >how rare this box is? Sounds like a keeper. Well, I'd thought Kaypro PC's were fairly common ~1986 time frame. One of the local Computer dealers was Kaypro only. My Mom bought a Kaypro PC in July of '86 right after I went into the Navy, and about a year latter I bought a Kaypro 2000 laptop (V20 based DOS PC) from the same dealer, and later a base unit and Kodak Diconix printer. IIRC they made both XT and AT clones, and were normally bundled with a whole suite of productivity software the main piece being Wordstar. Pretty good systems. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From donm at cts.com Sun Apr 26 16:33:36 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Junk sale (new offer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > > If nobody wants the Kaypro PeeCee, I suppose I could pull all of the cards > > out for interested parties and ship them. If, however, someone wants the > > machine whole, obviously it will be kept whole. > > I remember Kaypro (Non-Linear Systems, wasn't it?) going up in flames when > they couldn't manage the growth that came from the original Kaypro (they > started hiring family members at all top positions in the company, and one > analysis quipped that they had too many Kays and needed more pros :-). They started out as an offshoot of Andy Kay's Non-Linear Systems, and later (1984?) incorporated a separate Kaypro Corporation. That was still back in the Kaypro II/4/10 era. > I don't remember ever seeing a desktop PC coming from them. Anybody know > how rare this box is? Sounds like a keeper. > -- Doug > > > Actually, they made several iterations of desktops. Starting with the XT model, and progressing to a '286, and later a rather compact package that may have been either '286 or '386 - I'm not sure. Interestingly, the processor card in the XT bore a striking resemblance to a card produced by PCPI - personal Computer Products Inc. - another San Diego area company. Kaypro, of course was forced into Chapter 7 in June of 1992 and ceased to exist shortly after. PCPI is still in existence, although struggling, and under another name now. - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 26 14:21:53 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 In-Reply-To: <199804261625.JAA13643@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Apr 26, 98 09:25:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2378 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980426/8cda8ca3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 26 14:10:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 26, 98 12:13:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1253 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980426/5b4c274b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 26 14:04:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 26, 98 12:05:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 679 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980426/cbd4e90f/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Sun Apr 26 17:41:45 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Junk sale (new offer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > If nobody wants the Kaypro PeeCee, I suppose I could pull all of the cards > > out for interested parties and ship them. If, however, someone wants the > > machine whole, obviously it will be kept whole. > > I remember Kaypro (Non-Linear Systems, wasn't it?) going up in flames when > they couldn't manage the growth that came from the original Kaypro (they > started hiring family members at all top positions in the company, and one > analysis quipped that they had too many Kays and needed more pros :-). Actually, you can hear complete rendering of the history of KayPro on the VCF 1.0 Lecture Series that will be released this May. Stephen Stone, one of VCF's speakers, did a lot of research and gave a very thorough discourse on the life and times of KayPro. > I don't remember ever seeing a desktop PC coming from them. Anybody know > how rare this box is? Sounds like a keeper. Not really. I've seen a few around and have passed simply because of their blandness. I didn't realize they were passive backplane though, which makes them a little interesting. I'll pick one up eventually when there's nothing else to grab one day. Again, Stephen discusses the Kays' decision to release a desktop PC compatible on the tape. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Apr 26 18:49:49 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Junk sale (new offer) In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza's message of Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:48:54 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199804262350.QAA26876@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Yowza wrote: > I don't remember ever seeing a desktop PC coming from them. Anybody know > how rare this box is? Sounds like a keeper. Yup, they made desktop PC-compatibles for a while. I remember a dealer in College Park, MD selling them (Software'n'Things if anyone else out there remembers them; to the best of my knowledge they aren't operating under that name anymore if at all). One of the big selling points was that they were upgradable by virtue of the passive backplane. Buy an XT-compatible now, later on you can upgrade to an AT-compatible just by swapping the CPU card for the '286 flavor. BTW Doug, is that your face I saw gazing up at me from this morning's San Jose Mercury News? If not, there's some guy calling himself Doug Salot who has some stuff in his collection that's an awful lot like things you've mentioned on this list. -Frank McConnell From yowza at yowza.com Sun Apr 26 19:31:55 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Junk sale (new offer) In-Reply-To: <199804262350.QAA26876@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 26 Apr 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > BTW Doug, is that your face I saw gazing up at me from this morning's > San Jose Mercury News? If not, there's some guy calling himself > Doug Salot who has some stuff in his collection that's an awful lot > like things you've mentioned on this list. The imposter! I'll sue! But that face does look awfully familiar.... (OK, it's true, I am the publicity-seeking empire builder of the story, but the top of my head is not my good side). -- Doug From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Apr 26 21:17:32 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: CDC thingy (was Re: About the Wang '669 patent) In-Reply-To: References: <01bd701e$05d38540$64ac31cf@foggy> Message-ID: <199804270217.MAA10107@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 11:01 AM 25-04-98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >I think Seymour Cray was a bit to blame as well, as his machines were also >very fast, but lacking in some areas. The Cray-1s have quite a limitted >memory, and no virtual memory behind it, making problems with very large >sets of data difficult. I understood that the lack of virtual memory was a conscious design decision. If you want the best available memory throughput, the last thing you need to do is add an additional layer of memory translation and even worse, page faults. If you want to process large datasets either buy more memory or decompose your problem (neither of which are easy or cheap...) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfa keeps me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Sun Apr 26 21:41:10 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Printer seen, DEC LP25 In-Reply-To: <199804261430.AA21766@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Apr 26, 98 10:30:03 am Message-ID: <199804270241.WAA11944@shell.monmouth.com> > > > Bill gave the particulars on it, band printer like the want stuff RCSRI > has 300LPM and could slew paper fast enough to empty a box fast. > > The hood gas shocks would dry out and somtimes people would get a finger > bit or their head konked good. > > Bill likely remembers Pat Pattenden or Paul Howard as those guys were > the old timers with those. > > > Allison > Nah... I was just a local DEC field service guy in NJ. I did teach the B-600 when I left DEC and went to Concurrent (Perkin-Elmer/Interdata/Masscomp) to work as an instructor and then Sys. Admin. I didn't like the Printronix stuff as much as the LP25 and 26 since they were quite reliable (only failures were usually ribbon motor/roller problems). The boards almost never blew. And they didn't require drum belt replacement or shuttle adjustments like the LP05's. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From rhblake at bbtel.com Sun Apr 26 23:02:37 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Kaypro PC's (was: Junk sale (new offer)) References: Message-ID: <3544035D.17D77A7D@bbtel.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I remember Kaypro (Non-Linear Systems, wasn't it?) going up in flames when > > > >I don't remember ever seeing a desktop PC coming from them. Anybody know > >how rare this box is? Sounds like a keeper. > > Well, I'd thought Kaypro PC's were fairly common ~1986 time frame. One of > the local Computer dealers was Kaypro only. My Mom bought a Kaypro PC in > July of '86 right after I went into the Navy, and about a year latter I > bought a > Kaypro 2000 laptop (V20 based DOS PC) from the same dealer, and later a > base unit and Kodak Diconix printer. > > IIRC they made both XT and AT clones, and were normally bundled with a > whole suite of productivity software the main piece being Wordstar. Pretty > good systems. I've got processor, memory and a planar board from a Kaypro PC and I've worked on a bunch that a certain homestudy school included with their course material around 1987. It wasn't NRI, they gave out a crap Sanyo silver demon. I think it was ICS. Anyway they are more closely related to the Zenith planar type machines of the same period. Made for sure by Kaypro but not very well supported by them. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Sun Apr 26 23:38:23 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Freebies up for grabs! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980426103646.00e4b8f0@mail.wa.jps.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980426233823.007f2100@wingate> At 10:36 AM 4/26/98 -0700, you wrote: > 3). Cipher 880 tape drive, dual-density (1600/3200). Condition: Who knows? >Freebie. Is this a Pertec xface? Any idea what the shipping would be? -- David Wollmann | dwollmann@ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. From william at ans.net Sun Apr 26 23:46:13 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: CDC thingy (was Re: About the Wang '669 patent) In-Reply-To: <199804270217.MAA10107@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: > I understood that the lack of virtual memory was a conscious design > decision. If you want the best available memory throughput, the last thing > you need to do is add an additional layer of memory translation and even > worse, page faults. If you want to process large datasets either buy more > memory or decompose your problem (neither of which are easy or cheap...) It was a very conscious choice he made, and for many applications, was never missed. It did, however, limit the applications that could be tackled by the machines. The Cray-1s biggest rival at the time, the Cyber 203/205s from CDC, did have virtual memory, but not quite as we know it. Once a big vector was started from memory, there was no stopping the machine - I do not think it would page fault in the middle of a vector load or store. Crays are short vector machines, keeping them in registers. The Cybers were long vector machines, with up to 64K elements, and kept them in memory. Depending on the problem, either machine would beat the other. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 27 01:28:18 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: PCX3 System 1800 up for grabs Message-ID: <35442582.3506C0CE@bbtel.com> Anyone interested in this? I know the guy and he's a very decent person so you don't have to worry about "getting the wrong thing" I think it's free anyway. Contact Jeff by driect email at either jarrod95@juno.com or jarrod95@jadeinc.com -------------------------------------------- Jeff Young Columbus, Ohio USA - Sunday, April 26, 1998 at 19:21:49 Any one interested in an Old IBM PCX3 with monitor, and another computer and all we can find on it is System 1800, also have a Mono monitor, ADC. Contact me or they are going to the recyle bin. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Apr 27 07:44:00 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Friday, friday friday friday, friday... Message-ID: <13351133003.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I'll be having fun friday... I get to go argue with a professional junk guy over a KS-10. The company that owns it wanted it melted down, to protect some confidential data they had on it. SO, I'm gonna say "None of your data is on the CPU, just the disk packs, so he can have the packs. There." The drives are 2 RP06es. (Yes, I know I need 3-phase. Mark says he knows where to get an RM80 or two. Is there any way around having to have 3-phase for the RPs? I was told they fail every other 10 minutes, is it even worth it?) It did run TOPS-20, but I'm chasing after ITS tapes for it. Even if I don't end up getting it, I may get the CPU cards and backpanels, and then I know someone who has the rest of a KS. Failing that, if the junk guy gets everything, I know someone else who has a whole KS, but no operating system. So, one way or another, we're gonna get a running ITS installation out of this... Am I supposed to be this nervous? I've never had to actually argue with a junk guy over a machine, in front of a buncha suits... (Division heads or something. The actual company is QUITE large... *hint* *hint*...) ------- From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Apr 27 08:20:28 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Questions/Wanted Message-ID: <000301bd71df$57da1e40$696fbcc1@hotze> Questions: Does anyone haveSolddering For an idiot projects... something to do with electronics and soldering Or for that matter PCB Projects, for an idiot (as above) such as me. Wanted: PC-DOS 1.x or MS DOS 1.x/2.x for and XT, with a failing HDD. Anyone? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 26 06:15:57 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Logic State Analyser In-Reply-To: "Olminkhof" "Logic State Analyser" (Apr 26, 19:19) References: <01bd70f4$6b5055c0$f73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <9804261215.ZM13746@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 26, 19:19, Olminkhof wrote: > Subject: Logic State Analyser > I have been rearranging my storage area and uncovered a HP 1611A Logic > State Analyser fitted with a Z80 option that I picked up a few years ago. > > I have no idea what one would do with this. Should I cherish it? Play with > it? > Does one need the specific manual or are these generic and perhaps > explained in standard texts? > > There are a number of plugin points for various types of probes, none of > which I have off course. It powers up fine though. AFAIR the ordinary probes are just micro-hooks on single wires, which plug into a little distribution box on the end of a ribbon cable. It's quite a nice analyser, so "play with it" gets my vote. It was also quite popular, so I expect you could find manuals if you look/ask around. I'm sure we have some 1611s or 1610s in the labs. If you want me to take a look at them next week, shout. There's also a description of both models, and several examples of use, in John Lenk's book "How To Troubleshoot And Repair Microcomputers" -- which IMHO isn't a very good book, but there seem to be lots of old copies of it about, and in libraries. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 27 08:41:44 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory In-Reply-To: "emanuel stiebler" "q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory" (Apr 26, 11:36) References: <19980426172450.AAA13954@2Cust13.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <9804271441.ZM21087@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 26, 11:36, emanuel stiebler wrote: > does anybody have a description of the jumpers & dil-switches ? Sure. The DIL switches are small rectangular objects about 0.4" x 0.7" and the jumpers... (Sorry, I can rarely resist that :-)) I think this is what you want: There are 2 layouts, Revision A and Revision C. ___ ___ | \__________________||______________________||___________________/ | | 5017547A1 o | | R o-o W5| | | P o-o o-o | | N o-o W6 | | M o-o | | oA | | o | | __oB | | | |1 | | SW1 | | o W1 | | | | o | | M7551-AA |___|6 o W2 | | MSV11-QA oK | | REV.A o | | oL | | ___ | | | |1 | | SW2 | | | | | | | | |___|6 | | | | o | | C | D | | o-o | | +5V o-o-o | | o-o J H | |_ _|| _|| _|| | _| | | | | | | | o +5VB | |______________| |______________| |______________| |______________| ___ ___ | \__________________||______________________||___________________/ | | 5017547-01-C1 | | J11,9,7,5 | | J10,8,6,4 | | | | J3 J2 J1 | | ___ | | | |1 | | M7551-xA SW2 | | | | MSV11-Qx | | | | REV.C |___|6 | | | | where x = A = 1MB ___ | | x = B = 2MB | |1 | | x = C = 4MB SW1 | | | | | | | | |___|6 | | | | | | o o | | +-o o-+ | | W3 | o o | W1 | | +-o o-+ | | J17,16,15 J14,13,12 | | | |_ _|| _|| _|| _| | | | | | | | | |______________| |______________| |______________| |______________| Address switches: Start Address End Address Board No SW1 SW2 SW2 Version in system 4 5 6 4 5 MSV11-QA 1 0 0 0 1 1 2 1 1 1 0 1 3 0 1 1 1 0 4 1 0 1 0 0 MSV11-QB 1 0 0 0 1 1 2 0 1 1 0 0 MSV11-QC 1 0 0 0 0 0 0=ON, 1=OFF SW2-1, -2, -3 and SW1-1, -2, -3 are all ON. SW1-6 is not used. CSR Address: Rev.A jumpers R,P,N,M all IN Rev.C jumper J4-J5, J6-J7, J8-J9, J10-J11 AND then: Board No in system CSR addr 1 17772100 2 17772102 3 17772104 4 17772106 The other Rev.A jumpers are: W1 IN block mode enabled W6 IN Manufacturing test (do not remove) B IN CSR selection enabled C IN Manufacturing test (do not remove) H IN enable parity error detection L IN 22-bit addressing selected +5V/+5VB do not use, this module does NOT support battery-backup option The other Rev.C jumpers are: J1-J2 IN Manufacturing test (do not remove) J13-J14 IN on -QA Select 64K RAMs OUT on -QB,-QC J15-J16 IN on -QA Select 64K RAMs OUT on -QB,-QC J12-J13 IN on -QB,-QC Select 256K RAMs OUT on -QA J16-J17 IN on -QB,-QC Select 256K RAMs OUT on -QA W1,W3 IN Battery backup option setting -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Apr 27 05:17:52 1998 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? In-Reply-To: References: <199804260830.EAA07780@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199804271415.KAA23674@smtp.interlog.com> On 26 Apr 98 at 12:05, William Donzelli wrote: > > EICO was considered higher quality than Heath Kits audio gear and made > > excellent test equipment for the home-tech market in the tube era. Many > > old-tube enthusiasts still use them . > > Yes, better than Heathkits, but these days even the high quality stuff is > cheap and available (HP, Tektronix, Boonton, General-Radio, etc.). Of > course, the one place where you will have to spend money on old test > equipment _is_ that of tube testers, mostly due to the audiophiles. If you > can get a good old Hickok for less than $150, you should jump on it. > > > Bill I'm shocked. Hope that list name was chosen in derision of the throw-away > > generation. : ^ )) > > The name came about by all of the smartass hams at the hamfests that would > watch some of us lug 90 pound tube radios back to our cars ("hey, where > did you get the boatanchor!"), while they had whole Kenwood stations that > would fit in a fairly small box. Of course, they would really start > laughing when we would have to go back to get the 40 pound power supplies. > People who view me and my puters fixations as stange anyway have thrown the doorstop thing at me many times. A more novel suggestion has been using my my 8580 full tower case as a coffee table. I considered it. My 3 5meg 8'' TRS HDDs would also make a good base for a futon . I have a Qume daisy wheel printer PS that will dim the lights in the neighborhood. ; ^ 0 > Anyway, I really wonder how good most (all?) tube testers would be for > digital logic applications. All of the good testers I can think of do a > fine job on emmision, shorts, and gas, but the gm test generally is fairly > dumb - a steady 60 Hz (sometimes 1 kHz) fed into the grid, and look at the > output. That is exactly what logic circuits do not do. > Because of the inexactitude of tube output it would almost be necesary to test each one in circuit and then tweak I would think. > The Tek tube curve tracer (model 577 or 565 - help! I can not remember) > would be very good, but you would have to sell your Imsai and Altair to > pay for one. > It might be cheaper to buy a used Cray. :^)) > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > > ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com From cfandt at servtech.com Mon Apr 27 09:24:39 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? In-Reply-To: <199804260830.EAA07780@smtp.interlog.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980425174035.0088f950@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199804271429.KAA15519@cyber2.servtech.com> At 04:33 26-04-98 +0000, lwalker@interlog.com (Larry) wrote: > >On 25 Apr 98 at 21:45, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > Ok, since I intend to use this thing to work on computer related gear older >> > than 10 years old (my 083 card sorter for example), I'm proclaiming this >> > inquiry off-limits for random flamage! B^} -- snip -- > I have a model 625 I use for old audio equipment. If it's anything like my >m.625 they're a neat little machine. They do the job. I don't know if the >settings are the same for the 635. Ask on rec.audio.tubes and/or rec.audio and >someone should know. If so I'll see if I can get a scan of my sheets and send >them on to you. > >> What tubes do you need to test? I could post the numbers to the >> Boatanchors list, and someone will probably have the settings on hand. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Bill I'm shocked. Hope that list name was chosen in derision of the throw-away >generation. : ^ )) > >> William Donzelli >> william@ans.net >> >ciao larry >lwalker@interlog.com > No, a 'Boatanchor' is an affectionate reference to (primarily) older, vacuum tube (valve) operated radio receivers and transmitters. Tube operated test equipment and other 'tubed' items such as the mid-50's IBM 704-series computers that many of us have laying around [ ;-) ] are also usually referred to as boatanchors. The 704 I lusted after at the Deutsches Museum in Munich a couple of years ago could certainly anchor a boat not to mention sink it ;) It sat not too far from a Cray-1, IBM 360 console, a Boroughs of some sort (IIRC) plus other big iron and examples of Konrad Zuse's Z-series from the mid-to-late 40's. Travelers/ Europeans: you gotta see this if you possibly can! William: sounds like you have eclectic collecting interests like myself and maybe a couple of others in ClassicComp as I've seen evidence of you in the antique automobile and antique radio-type newsgroups. Got any room left in your house???? ;) By the way, the TV-7*/U is a military nomenclature referencing a military surplus tube tester. This type is generaly revered to be the optimum tube tester that one should have in his/her shop for most accurately testing tubes. Anybody got one available? I'm actually looking for a good unit (needed to test the tubes in my own 704 --NOT!.) -- -- ======================================================= Christian R. Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian 31 Houston Avenue, WE Phone: +716-488-1722 -Home Jamestown, New York +716-661-1832 -Office 14701-2627 USA Fax: +716-661-1888 -Office fax email: cfandt@servtech.com Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Mon Apr 27 09:45:54 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: MINDSET Message-ID: <19980427094059.03372f71.in@insidermarketing.com> >Does anybody have a MINDSET computer? I vaguely recall these as the first >multimedia PC from the early 80's. I just found a stereo module for one, >and now I'm in search of the rest of one :-) > You can't have mine. MINDSET was about as you recall. It built in 1984 as a super-multimedia 80186-based PC-compatible (well, mostly-compatible, anyway.) For 1984, the graphics were superb and it had (IIRC) a video-in connection so you can use the computer as a character generator/paintbox. I think it was packed with a low-end cousin to the Time Arts Lumena paint program and was THE machine for graphic artists. Remember, this was a year and a half before the Amiga - which, whene IT came out, pretty much took over Mindset's market. The Mindset has a unique and quite beautiful white bi-level case design. So pretty in fact that the Museum of Modern Art put one in their design collection - the first computer placed in their collections. Much of the hardware was proprietary - weird memory modules and it also accepted plug in progrram cartridges. Mindset didn't last too long as a company. They DID build a second model, an AT-based machine in charcoal gray. I've seen it once and never read anything about it I found my original Mindset last year, complete with a couple of expansion RAM modules, the boot disks and the paint cartridge. Like I said, it's gorgeous and you can't have it. Nyah. But - I might make you a deal on the stereo module! --Larry From emu at ecubics.com Mon Apr 27 10:25:35 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:33 2005 Subject: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory Message-ID: <19980427151343.AAA4257@1Cust110.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Pete ... ---------- > From: Pete Turnbull > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory > Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 7:41 AM > > On Apr 26, 11:36, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > does anybody have a description of the jumpers & dil-switches ? > > Sure. The DIL switches are small rectangular objects about 0.4" x 0.7" > and the jumpers... (Sorry, I can rarely resist that :-)) THIS WAS A GOOD ONE. ROFL... thanks, emanuel P.S. Where you got it ? Or you typed it in ? From pechter at shell.monmouth.com Mon Apr 27 10:44:38 1998 From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Friday, friday friday friday, friday... In-Reply-To: <13351133003.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Apr 27, 98 05:44:00 am Message-ID: <199804271544.LAA16504@shell.monmouth.com> > > I'll be having fun friday... > I get to go argue with a professional junk guy over a KS-10. The company that > owns it wanted it melted down, to protect some confidential data they had on it. > SO, I'm gonna say "None of your data is on the CPU, just the disk packs, > so he can have the packs. There." The drives are 2 RP06es. (Yes, I know I > need 3-phase. Mark says he knows where to get an RM80 or two. Is there > any way around having to have 3-phase for the RPs? My memory may be off -- but: RP06's don't use really 3 phases -- just two for the motor. You could probably get them to work on 220. They're pretty good. I wouldn't touch RP04's with a phone pole. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From red at bears.org Mon Apr 27 10:46:07 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Info/docs on tube tester? In-Reply-To: <199804271429.KAA15519@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > also usually referred to as boatanchors. The 704 I lusted after at the > Deutsches Museum in Munich a couple of years ago could certainly anchor a > boat not to mention sink it ;) It sat not too far from a Cray-1, IBM 360 > console, a Boroughs of some sort (IIRC) plus other big iron and examples > of Konrad Zuse's Z-series from the mid-to-late 40's. Travelers/ Europeans: > you gotta see this if you possibly can! I have a few photos of questionable quality and poor detail from this section of the museum. At the time I was there, though, I was more interested in the musical instruments and wasted a good 18 to 24 exposures there. If I ever get down to th ebottom of the pile and find I've still got two hands and some vestigal eyes, I'll scan the attmittedly unremarkable photos I took while I was there. I took them before I was into classic computers and they were taken more because I felt some sort of obligation and thus have long since forgotten what most of the pictures are of. I'm sure most of you will be able to recognize them straight away, though. (: ok r. From emu at ecubics.com Mon Apr 27 12:35:12 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory Message-ID: <19980427172320.AAA13941@1Cust62.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Pete, second one, ---------- > From: Pete Turnbull > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory > Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 7:41 AM > > There are 2 layouts, Revision A and Revision C. no. i have a Revison D. Part Number 5-17547-01-D1-P2. 2 MByte DRAM. Lookes like a Revsion C, i'm only missing (not really) the battery backup options W1, W3. cheers, emanuel. P.S. Great painting !!! From william at ans.net Mon Apr 27 13:06:53 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Help in San Diego Message-ID: It seems to be all in the very preliminary stages, but time is running out... Does anyone on the list have space for a large (two-rack) Multiflow Trace machine? One has popped up, and it seems that RCS/RI has a big interest in it, but we might run out of time before we can set up a mover. A cormer of a garage might be nice for just a short time, just in case the machine's current owner needs the thing out of the San Diego place on short notice. If RCS/RI just can not pull this off, does anyone want the thing? William Donzelli william@ans.net From kyrrin at jps.net Mon Apr 27 13:13:18 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Freebie update Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980427111318.00e2bca0@mail.wa.jps.net> OK... here's the current scoop. Sam Ismail has claimed the DEC networking book and the Microsystems handbook. I still have available the DHV11 technical manual, the Everex manual, and the DEC programming card. The remainder of the hardware is on hold pending a possible taker. Thanks to all those who responded. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 27 13:17:36 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory In-Reply-To: "emanuel stiebler" "Re: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory" (Apr 27, 11:35) References: <19980427172320.AAA13941@1Cust62.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <9804271917.ZM21250@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Hi, Emanuael. > no. i have a Revison D. Part Number 5-17547-01-D1-P2. 2 MByte DRAM. Lookes > like a Revsion C, i'm only missing (not really) the battery backup options > W1, W3. That's useful to know -- thanks! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 27 13:20:26 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory In-Reply-To: "emanuel stiebler" "Re: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory" (Apr 27, 9:25) References: <19980427151343.AAA4257@1Cust110.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <9804271920.ZM21255@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 27, 9:25, emanuel stiebler wrote: > P.S. Where you got it ? Or you typed it in ? Typed it in, copied (more or less) from the microPDP11 Maintenance Manual. The blame for the crude ASCII art is all mine, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From william at ans.net Mon Apr 27 13:35:35 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Help in San Diego Message-ID: Well, it looks like were have been outbid. Oh well, at least the machine is going somewhere good (and I think I know where). William Donzelli william@ans.net From emu at ecubics.com Mon Apr 27 14:04:47 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory Message-ID: <19980427185255.AAA20783@1Cust62.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Pete, ---------- > From: Pete Turnbull > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory > Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 12:20 PM > > Typed it in, copied (more or less) from the microPDP11 Maintenance Manual. > The blame for the crude ASCII art is all mine, though. BLAME !?!?! Its great. You don't have a kind of this art about a pdp11/53 (KDJ11-D/S, M7554, 50-1670-02) ? thanks, emanuel From lgroebe at insidermarketing.com Mon Apr 27 14:11:35 1998 From: lgroebe at insidermarketing.com (Larry Groebe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Junk sale (new offer) Message-ID: <19980427140640.042a6a3e.in@insidermarketing.com> >> I don't remember ever seeing a desktop PC coming from them. Anybody know >> how rare this box is? Sounds like a keeper. > >That is exactly why I really do not want to junk the thing. Now any of you >could have the thing for a song, but it just is quite large to ship (the >shipping bill would probably be five times what the thing is worth!). >Unless someone _really_ ($$$) wants it, I really do not want to ship it. > >Just about eveything else is unclaimed. Am I the only person on the list >with an IBM 5103 printer (yes, it is the mate for the 5100)? > >William Donzelli >Carmel, NY >william@ans.net > I think yes, you are the only person with a 5103 printer. I have a 5100 but no printer. Didn't know until your message that they even made one! So I guess I don't need the ribbons...yet... However-- I am interested in this -- (1) Computer Wharehouse Store catalog, Spring-Summer 1977. SWTPC! Imsai! Kim-1! $1200 floppy drives! A slice from the "good old days" of the micro. The pages are a bit yellow, but in good shape. The cover is also nice, but the previous owner scribbled his name on the top. -- if it's still available. --Larry From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 27 12:33:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Logic State Analyser In-Reply-To: <9804261215.ZM13746@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 26, 98 11:15:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 792 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980427/bdad97c5/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 27 15:20:08 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: REND386 Virtual Worlds Book FS Message-ID: <3544E878.6ADB083D@bbtel.com> I have a book that hasn't even been used here that may be of interest to those of you into vitual programming on a PC. The title is "Playing God - Creating Virtual Worlds With REND386" by the Bernie Rohl and published by the Waite Group. Includes a still-sealed 3.5" disk fullof source code for C++ and other neat looking things. Made to run on a 386SX to a Pentium machine with VGA, 4mb RAM and a hard disk. It says it's an intermediate level book. The cover price on this glossy softcover with disk is $29.95. Anyone interested in it? You can have it for $15 which includes mailing within the continental 48 states. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From william at ans.net Mon Apr 27 14:22:21 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Junk sale (results) In-Reply-To: <19980427140640.042a6a3e.in@insidermarketing.com> Message-ID: > I think yes, you are the only person with a 5103 printer. I have a 5100 > but no printer. Didn't know until your message that they even made one! Hmmm...a bit of a suprise. > I am interested in this -- > > (1) Computer Wharehouse Store catalog, Spring-Summer 1977. SWTPC! Imsai! > Kim-1! $1200 floppy drives! A slice from the "good old days" of the micro. > The pages are a bit yellow, but in good shape. The cover is also nice, but > the previous owner scribbled his name on the top. > > -- if it's still available. No, it has gone to a new home. The Kaypro also has a new home, but the ribbons and Mac disk do not. The ribbons are small, so I will hold on to them, but the drive will be in many little pieces tonight. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 27 15:26:20 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Test Equip FS update Message-ID: <3544E9EC.E3303BD3@bbtel.com> Well thanks for letting me put the things I had up here on the list. I've sold or traded both the Kontron logic analyzer pair and the Tek 7612D digitizer. I still have a single channel 10mhz RCA solid state scope in great (looks new, works new) shape with manual. It's a model WO-535A and is from approx 1975 time period. I need $100 for this to fund a few odd projects such as buying a Snappy 3 video capture. Please contact me by direct email. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 27 14:26:30 1998 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: First Comercial Software for TRS-80 in A Decade Message-ID: <199804271926.PAA24108@armigeron.com> Now this is interesting---Perseus Development Corporation developed a new version of their SurveySolutions for the TRS-80 Model I. 4K required, but as always, more is better. The date of the release is suspicious (April 1, 1998) but still, it is interesting and the source code is available. The web page is at http://www.perseus.com/trs-80/ -spc (Neat, even if it is somewhat of a joke ... ) From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Apr 27 17:57:05 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Free classics - Washington DC area In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 27, 98 03:22:21 pm Message-ID: <9804272157.AA32407@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1149 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980427/219d5c0d/attachment.ksh From rcini at email.msn.com Mon Apr 27 18:54:29 1998 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Info on Teletek SBC-1 Message-ID: <006c01bd723a$b2faea60$6e21a7cd@bothell> On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:18:49 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: >There are a couple of blank sockets, and a TMM2016P-2 memory chip (a 2716??)... >>First off 2016 is a byte wide ram. I had never seen that Toshiba chip before. The 2716 was just a guess based on the part number. I'd guess that it's 200ns RAM. Is it a 2kw chip? >>I sounds like someone stripped the card. Actually, of 63 chips, only the 16 RAM chips, a 24-pin socket next to the uP, and two 16-pin chips near the PIO and CTC chips are empty. >>The SBC-1 was a complete Z80cpu(4 or 6mhz)/64kram/eprom/IO card it was designed to >>be used as a slave to the Systemaster cpu card. The 2016 was used to create a FIFO so >>that block IO could be used to communicate with it. The only thing it lacked to be a complete >>S100 cp/m system on a board was disk IO. The system master card had all that >>and FDC as well. Do you have any schematics or other info on this board? Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From peacock at simconv.com Mon Apr 27 19:46:18 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Info on Teletek SBC-1 Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8A6@mail.simconv.com> I had never seen that Toshiba chip before. The 2716 was just a guess based on the part number. I'd guess that it's 200ns RAM. Is it a 2kw chip? The Toshiba part was a regular 2016/6116 2KBx8 static RAM. Same pinout as the 2716 except for the additional WR* line. IIRC there were LP (low power CMOS) versions too, various speed grades. SDS (S.D. Sales) made an S-100 similar to the Teletek, except it could be configured as either a bus master main Z80 CPU card or a slave card. In master mode it had a memory manager, I think the full 24 bits. In slave mode the on-board 64KB of RAM could be memory mapped on a 64K boundary anywhere in the full 24-bit S-100 address space. It had a serial port (maybe 2, SIO or DART?) and a SASI port, the early predecessor of SCSI. It didn't have much in the way of software support for the slave mode, so I haven't done anything with it. My ambition is to make it a Z80 co-processor card in a Concurrent DOS system 80286 system. Jack Peacock From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 27 19:39:09 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory In-Reply-To: "emanuel stiebler" "Re: q-bus M7551 q22 mos memory" (Apr 27, 13:04) References: <19980427185255.AAA20783@1Cust62.tnt14.dfw5.da.uu.net> Message-ID: <9804280139.ZM21455@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 27, 13:04, emanuel stiebler wrote: > You don't have a kind of this art about a pdp11/53 (KDJ11-D/S, M7554, > 50-1670-02) ? Sorry, I've used one (once, briefly) but I don't have any docs apart from what's in the Field Guide that Tim keeps on sunsite. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 27 19:42:57 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Logic State Analyser In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Logic State Analyser" (Apr 27, 18:33) References: Message-ID: <9804280142.ZM21459@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 27, 18:33, Tony Duell wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > AFAIR the ordinary probes are just micro-hooks on single wires, which > > plug into a little distribution box on the end of a ribbon cable. > > Are you _sure_? Every logic analyser that I have ever worked with has > quite a bit of circuitry in the 'pod'. That's possible, but the probes themselves definitely are just wires with clips (albeit a beautifully made version). I'll take a look this week. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From maxeskin at hotmail.com Mon Apr 27 19:51:51 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: MCA card Message-ID: <19980428005151.3954.qmail@hotmail.com> Today, I received the MCA network card Russ Blakeman sent me. Unfortunately, it is called a "3270". I am afraid that it's not a real net card, but a 3270 emulator.It has a BNC connector on the back. The driver is called "3270 Driver Revision B". Can I use this thing with ethernet? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 27 20:47:02 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Info on Teletek SBC-1 Message-ID: <199804280147.AA17419@world.std.com> Message-ID: <35454E16.2F71DE5F@bbtel.com> Max Eskin wrote: > Today, I received the MCA network card Russ Blakeman sent me. > Unfortunately, it is called a "3270". I am afraid that it's not a > real net card, but a 3270 emulator.It has a BNC connector on the > back. The driver is called "3270 Driver Revision B". > Can I use this thing with ethernet? How so? I'll take this to private email as it appears to be a miscommunication somewhere and we all don't want to hear another chorus of "you screwed me and I'm gonna write nasties all about you, nya, nya, nya" from a few weeks ago. Max asked simply for an MCA card with BNC connector and I never caught the thing that he might use it with something else. Of course the ethernet point didn't come up for one reason or other. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bbtel.com Mon Apr 27 23:41:00 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: MCA card References: <19980428005151.3954.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <35455DDB.E91F4C49@bbtel.com> BTW, so no one gets the wrong idea about the reply to Max's message - I was being sarcastic. I'll work out something with Max and neither of us feels reamed. I can just see the whole "thread of death" messages again. Sorry for the whitespace but I figured that I fill all of your hardrives enough already that you wouldn't even notice ;-)~- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Apr 28 00:51:26 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: MCA card In-Reply-To: "Max Eskin"'s message of Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:51:51 PDT References: <19980428005151.3954.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199804280551.WAA21720@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Max Eskin" wrote: > Today, I received the MCA network card Russ Blakeman sent me. > Unfortunately, it is called a "3270". I am afraid that it's not a > real net card, but a 3270 emulator.It has a BNC connector on the > back. The driver is called "3270 Driver Revision B". > Can I use this thing with ethernet? Yes, for certain sorts of useful. You plug the BNC T onto the back of the card, and it stops all communication on that thin-net segment. At least that's my experience with such devices. (They told me it was an Ethernet card. I didn't believe them but they insisted, so I shrugged and plugged the cable in. It took about five minutes for the folks hollering from the other lab room to find me.) If you want an MCA Ethernet card, look for one with both a BNC connector and a 15-pin D (AUI) connector. Maybe an RJ45 too but I don't recall seeing many MCA cards that had all three connectors. -Frank McConnell From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Apr 28 02:03:18 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: MCA card References: <19980428005151.3954.qmail@hotmail.com> <199804280551.WAA21720@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <35457F35.2E3F2571@bbtel.com> Frank McConnell wrote: > "Max Eskin" wrote: > > Today, I received the MCA network card Russ Blakeman sent me. > > Unfortunately, it is called a "3270". I am afraid that it's not a > > real net card, but a 3270 emulator.It has a BNC connector on the > > back. The driver is called "3270 Driver Revision B". > > Can I use this thing with ethernet? > > Yes, for certain sorts of useful. You plug the BNC T onto the back of > the card, and it stops all communication on that thin-net segment. At > least that's my experience with such devices. (They told me it was an > Ethernet card. I didn't believe them but they insisted, so I shrugged > and plugged the cable in. It took about five minutes for the > folks hollering from the other lab room to find me.) > > If you want an MCA Ethernet card, look for one with both a BNC > connector and a 15-pin D (AUI) connector. Maybe an RJ45 too but > I don't recall seeing many MCA cards that had all three connectors. I think I have a few like you describe with the 15 and bnc. I'll have to check. Know anythink of a DCA Link card and it's use? I have no idea on this one and I'd like to know what it's useful for. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 28 01:20:19 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Junk sale (new offer) References: Message-ID: <35457522.1C7E4B3C@rain.org> William Donzelli wrote: > Just about eveything else is unclaimed. Am I the only person on the list > with an IBM 5103 printer (yes, it is the mate for the 5100)? No, you are not the only one. I have one that came with the IBM 5100 I got some number of months ago. One of these days, I would really like to get it up and running ... along with a couple of hundred others :)! I probably missed your original post. What is the offer? Marvin From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 28 01:39:59 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: <35457F35.2E3F2571@bbtel.com> Message-ID: Remember Tony Cole, the guy that bought the Cray from Livermore and sold the boards in acrylic frames as "memorybilia"? I just got one of the memory boards second hand! It'll come in handy if I ever acquire a Cray-1, but in the meantime I'd like to document it as well as I can while info is still available. I don't suppose anybody has schematics. It's basically a solid slab of copper (doubles as a heat fin, I suppose) and is populated rather sparsely by chips with date codes from '80 and '81. The chips seem to be from Fairchild primarily (the 32 F10470's look like they might be RAM). From Mr. Cole's "limited edition" markings, I gather that there were 400 of these boards in his Cray-1. Any idea how much RAM is on the board? Can I interface the board to my Sinclair ZX-81 to create the world's most perverse hybrid? -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 28 06:44:11 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 Message-ID: <199804281144.AA19206@world.std.com> Allison wrote: >The Cray-1 was ECL-10k fast for it's time but low density and rams for >that technology were 1 or 4k ECL bipolar. ECL had several >characteristics, FAST, high power consumption and low density. Excuse my ignorance, what does ECL stand for? Hans From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Apr 28 07:29:36 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: MCA card In-Reply-To: <35457F35.2E3F2571@bbtel.com> Message-ID: <13351392526.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Stopping thinnet with a 3270 card...] I once heard of a manager of some sort plugging thinnet into the back of a VT220 (?It was VTsomething...?) video-out port. Seems he thought it was one of those network computer deals... [Networked computers will be OK. It means all the terminals get run from some large computer off somewhere else. Does this sound familiar? besides, less idiots will be able to mess up their terminals, as a terminal should be harder to screw up, meaning less TS calls for me. All I gotta do it get a job running one of those suckers...] ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 28 08:07:08 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 Message-ID: <199804281307.AA19151@world.std.com> <>The Cray-1 was ECL-10k fast for it's time but low density and rams for <>that technology were 1 or 4k ECL bipolar. ECL had several <>characteristics, FAST, high power consumption and low density. < Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Olminkhof wrote: > Excuse my ignorance, what does ECL stand for? 'Emitter Coupled Logic' if I recall correctly. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rhblake at bbtel.com Tue Apr 28 12:22:36 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Test Equip Message-ID: <3546105C.E32B0336@bbtel.com> For anyone that's interested or just tired of the ads for them, all the previously advertised test equipment has been spoken for. Thanks for putting up with the messages. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From peacock at simconv.com Tue Apr 28 12:12:52 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: MCA card Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8A7@mail.simconv.com> [Stopping thinnet with a 3270 card...] I once heard of a manager of some sort plugging thinnet into the back of a VT220 (?It was VTsomething...?) video-out port. Seems he thought it was one of those network computer deals... VT220s had a video out BNC connector. You could drive a monitor with it, but wasn't very useful plugged into a coax Ethernet cable. Jack Peacock From william at ans.net Tue Apr 28 12:06:24 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: <199804281144.AA19206@world.std.com> Message-ID: > The Cray-1 was ECL-10k fast for it's time but low density and rams for > that technology were 1 or 4k ECL bipolar. I do not think the Cray-1s used 10K ECL - I believe they were custom parts and were faster (10K gates have a delay around 2 nS). Only four types of chips were used in the whole beast - I think two were OR/NOR gates, one was a flip-flop, and the other RAM. The F10470 is indeed a 4K device, with a 15nS access time - quite fast for its day. 1981 date codes imply that this was from a Cray-1S (-1Ms used MOS memory, and straight-1s were out of production by then). > The > copper plate worked with a cooling system to conduct the heat away as > that machine was impossible to air cool and remain that small. Now you know why older Crays tend to be so darn heavy! The copper plate simply conducted the heat from the board to the tall aluminum uprights (visible on the -1s, hidden on the X/MP and old Y/MPS). These uprights carried the cooling fluid. Although some may be saddened by the fact that Mr. Cole is chopping up a Cray, keep in mind that the survival rate of the machines is phenominal - probably 10 to 20 percent of the things tend to get decommisioned straight to the lobbies of the computing centers, to serve as gate guards. As a side note, anyone want to buy some 10G logic, for the ultimate in speed? William Donzelli william@ans.net From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 28 13:28:11 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: University of Washington surplus sale? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980428132811.00b79100@pc> I found a somewhat stale lead (last November) on three or four Terak computers that were sold at the monthly University of Washington surplus sale. Is there anyone on the list familiar with this sale? - John Jefferson Computer Museum From red at bears.org Tue Apr 28 13:32:40 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: University of Washington surplus sale? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980428132811.00b79100@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, John Foust wrote: > I found a somewhat stale lead (last November) on three or four > Terak computers that were sold at the monthly University of Washington > surplus sale. Is there anyone on the list familiar with this sale? No, but I'd love to be. I work not five blocks from campus. ok r. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Apr 28 14:38:19 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: University of Washington surplus sale? In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Apr 28, 98 02:32:40 pm Message-ID: <199804281938.MAA07019@fraser.sfu.ca> > > I found a somewhat stale lead (last November) on three or four > > Terak computers that were sold at the monthly University of Washington > > surplus sale. Is there anyone on the list familiar with this sale? > > No, but I'd love to be. I work not five blocks from campus. Please post any info to the list, I live fairly close by and would like to go as well! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 28 13:05:02 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: MCA card In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8A7@mail.simconv.com> from "Jack Peacock" at Apr 28, 98 10:12:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1016 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980428/ac8c156e/attachment.ksh From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Apr 28 16:08:59 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: MCA card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13351487076.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Yeah, YOU're where I heard that from! Couldn't remember for the life of me... ------- From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 28 16:46:14 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: MCA card Message-ID: <19980428214614.10922.qmail@hotmail.com> Interesting. I was in the library today, and I happened to glance on the back of a VT-220 they had. I thought it was video, because of the icon, but then I said to my friend, "Cool! It can do ethernet!" >of collisions and other strange things. Looked like one of the computers >on it had gone crazy and was jabbering, but turning off one machine at a >time didn't help things. > >OK, time to grab a 'scope. What on earth was that? It looks like >composite video. It _is_ composite video. OK, time to trace the cable. >You guessed it. Some luser had plugged a spare t-piece on the thinwire >segment onto the back of a VT220. > >I can't remember what LART I used ;-) > > >> Jack Peacock >> > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 28 17:46:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > Now you know why older Crays tend to be so darn heavy! I've seen the weight listed as both 5 and 30 tons for the Cray-1 in news articles. I assume it's closer to 5, right? At 2 lbs each, the RAM weighs only (!) 800 lbs or so. > Although some may be saddened by the fact that Mr. Cole is chopping up a > Cray, keep in mind that the survival rate of the machines is phenominal > - probably 10 to 20 percent of the things tend to get decommisioned > straight to the lobbies of the computing centers, to serve as gate guards. I read that Cray sold a total of 40 Cray-1's, so even 20% doesn't leave too many intact machines (although it makes my memory board fairly common if 16000 were produced). -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 28 18:02:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Apr 28, 98 05:46:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 703 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980429/fed7f889/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Tue Apr 28 18:08:27 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've seen the weight listed as both 5 and 30 tons for the Cray-1 in news > articles. I assume it's closer to 5, right? At 2 lbs each, the RAM weighs > only (!) 800 lbs or so. 5 or 6, some models (not complete "c"'s) less. > I read that Cray sold a total of 40 Cray-1's, so even 20% doesn't leave > too many intact machines (although it makes my memory board fairly common > if 16000 were produced). But how many Cybers are still around? How many ETAs? Even (non-super) IBM S/360s are very rare (thousands made, maybe a dozen left). William Donzelli william@ans.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Apr 28 18:10:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Logic State Analyser In-Reply-To: References: <9804261215.ZM13746@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980428181055.4e570f54@intellistar.net> At 06:33 PM 4/27/98 +0100, you wrote: >> > There are a number of plugin points for various types of probes, none of >> > which I have off course. It powers up fine though. >> >> AFAIR the ordinary probes are just micro-hooks on single wires, which plug >> into a little distribution box on the end of a ribbon cable. > >Are you _sure_? Every logic analyser that I have ever worked with has >quite a bit of circuitry in the 'pod'. Both Gould and Tektronix had some >(custom) high-speed comparator hybrid circuits in the pods. Even the HP >LogicDart has something moulded into the probe connector, I think. > There IS a lot of circuitry in the HP LA pods. I've taken a few apart and it's packed full. I have extra pods for the 1610 & 1615 but I don't know if they're the same ones that are used on the 1611. Joe From william at ans.net Tue Apr 28 18:13:06 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > 20% seems to be a typical rate for the survival of the rarer computers - > I am told that about 20% of the PERQ 3a's and PERQ 2T4s have survived. Of > course that puts both of them in single figures, alas... Yes I do know > where many of them are, and no I'm not going to post it publically. That is correct for small(ish) machines, but not for big iron. William Donzelli william@ans.net From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 28 18:20:14 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, William Donzelli wrote: > > I read that Cray sold a total of 40 Cray-1's, so even 20% doesn't leave > > too many intact machines (although it makes my memory board fairly common > > if 16000 were produced). > > But how many Cybers are still around? How many ETAs? Even (non-super) IBM > S/360s are very rare (thousands made, maybe a dozen left). So the moral of the story is that manufacturers should build furniture into their computer systems, so when the computer is obsolete, the system will live on as furniture. :-) -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 28 18:54:05 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: CM5 carcass scrapped In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of the coolest machines ever produced (both from an architectural and aesthetic point of view) had to be the Thinking Machines' CM series. I just heard that a Los Alamos CM5 was stripped, the carcass was auctioned, nobody claimed it, and it was scrapped just a couple of days ago (sniff). For a list of stuff that was auctioned off, check out http://www.bentleysauction.com/auctions/cat_albu_nm042598.html The CM5 carcass was listed simply as "2082 1 CAB". Anybody on the list from New Mexico? Hang out at this place out if so. -- Doug From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Apr 28 19:14:04 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Grid Laptop FS Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980428191404.60bf30a0@intellistar.net> I found this on E-bay. The minimum bid is $45. If you think this is too much (I do!!), you can contact the owner and see if he'll take less if it doesn't sell. The URL is "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12277630". Description GRID 8088 XT Laptop. Rugged Construction. 720k FDD, No HDD, 512k Mem, SER/PAR, Plasma Screen, AC Adapter Module substitutes battery. Works Perfectly. Good for diagnostics, automotive, marine, etc. Excellent condition. Buyer prepays with money order or check and pays shipping. Joe From yowza at yowza.com Tue Apr 28 19:26:53 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Grid Laptop FS In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980428191404.60bf30a0@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Joe wrote: > GRID 8088 XT Laptop. Rugged Construction. 720k FDD, No HDD, 512k Mem, > SER/PAR, Plasma Screen, AC Adapter Module substitutes battery. Works > Perfectly. Good for diagnostics, automotive, marine, etc. Excellent > condition. Buyer prepays with money order or check and pays shipping. It sounds like a GRIDCase 3. It has the same black magnesium case as the earlier Compass models and later 1500 series, and MS-DOS in ROM. -- Doug From maxeskin at hotmail.com Tue Apr 28 20:34:01 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 Message-ID: <19980429013402.22972.qmail@hotmail.com> Is the reason those old radio/phonograph boxes are not being thrown away is that noone notice the cover and thinks it's just a pretty dresser w/o drawers :)? Also hideaway sewing machines. I do see many of them in thrift stores, though. It was a good idea, to keep technology invisible. Now, it's the other way around. Cover EVERYthing with black and beige boxes. Of course, the System/36 (I think, maybe not) was built into a desk. And then there were the teletypes (are the ones that are mostly used as examples of teletypes ASR-33?), printers, etc. >> S/360s are very rare (thousands made, maybe a dozen left). > >So the moral of the story is that manufacturers should build furniture >into their computer systems, so when the computer is obsolete, the system >will live on as furniture. :-) > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jrice at texoma.net Tue Apr 28 21:16:13 1998 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Kickstart and Workbench 1.2 for Amiga 1000 Message-ID: <35468D6D.9F1F2008@texoma.net> I've acquired a Amiga 1000 with monitor, mouse, scsi sidecar that try's to boot up, but after booting kickstart, it asks for the Workbench 1.2 disk. My disk seems to be defective because the drive cycles and the picture of the workbench disk comes back up. Does anyone out there have a copy? James From kyrrin at jps.net Tue Apr 28 21:28:46 1998 From: kyrrin at jps.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:34 2005 Subject: Freebies all gone - Thanks! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980428192846.00e4d850@mail.wa.jps.net> The DHV 11 manual and the programming card have both been claimed. Given that the hardware is on hold, that completes this run of freebies. Thanks to all for your interest. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu Tue Apr 28 22:20:05 1998 From: mpsayler at zeke.as.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: ; from Tony Duell on Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:02:26AM +0100 References: Message-ID: <19980428222005.31896@zeke.as.utexas.edu> I remember back in '98 when Tony Duell wrote: > > > Although some may be saddened by the fact that Mr. Cole is chopping up a > > Of course I'm saddened by that. I'd like a complete Cray to hack about > on... Of course I'd also need somewhere to put it :-) I have a notion that location /per se/ wouldn't be the problem, but rather the power availibe at said location. I beleive that these ECL machines drew > 100KW at full tilt. m@ (and your pocketbook for the 'lectriciy) -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@zen.as.utexas.edu -- atwork?astronomy:cs http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler -- (512)471-7450 Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Apr 29 00:40:11 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: What's up with xkleten? In-Reply-To: "Daniel A. Seagraves"'s message of Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:07:45 -0700 References: <13350438274.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <199804290540.WAA05719@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > I can't seem to get ahold of it anymore, was it decomissioned or something? Hmm. Did you find out anything more about this? I found a copy of _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 Assembly Language Programming_ (by Ralph E. Gorin, 1981, published by Digital Press, ISBN 0-932376-12-6) and was thinking that this was good timing because I might actually be able to do the homework on, well, something like a -10. In my dreams^H^H^H^H^H^Hcopious free time, of course. Other books found: _Man and the Computer_, John G. Kemeny, 1972, Scribners, SBN 684-13043-2 _PCC's Reference Book of Personal and Home Computing_, Dwight McCabe (ed.), 1977, PCC, ISBN 0-918790-02-6 _Varian Data 620/i System Reference Manual_, Rev C, March 1969 _The BYTE Book of Pascal_, Blaise W. Liffick (ed.), 1979, BYTE Books, ISBN 0-07-037823-1 _An Introduction to Algorithmic Methods Using the MAD Language_, Alan B. Marcovitz and Earl J. Schweppe, 1966, Macmillan, LCCN 66-27676 _The APL Handbook of Techniques_, compiled by DP Scientific Marketing, 1978, IBM S320-5996-0 IBM Proprinter Technical Reference, April 1985, p/n 6328947 _Computer Graphics Techniques and Applications_, R. D. Parslow, R. W. Prowse, R. Elliot Green (eds.), 1969, Plenum, LCCN 68-58992 _Intel Microcomputer Systems Data Book_, 1977 -Frank McConnell From yowza at yowza.com Wed Apr 29 01:12:03 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: What's up with xkleten? In-Reply-To: <199804290540.WAA05719@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 28 Apr 1998, Frank McConnell wrote: > "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > > I can't seem to get ahold of it anymore, was it decomissioned or something? > > Hmm. Did you find out anything more about this? PING xkleten.paulallen.com (204.202.80.66): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 204.202.80.66: icmp_seq=0 ttl=37 time=114.4 ms 64 bytes from 204.202.80.66: icmp_seq=1 ttl=38 time=89.2 ms I don't have an account there (Mr. Allen ignored my request (I guess he is pretty smart after all)), but telnet seems to work fine. -- Doug From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Apr 29 02:50:20 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980422040042.0a070a7a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Joe wrote: > >Was it not the same in the States, with regards to Apple clones, as it was > >in Canada in the early 80s? > > Sure it was. The Franklins were probably the best known Apple rip-offs > ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H er ah, clones. At least until Apple sued them and > Franklin had to actually design their own machines. I've never actually seen a Franklin. Most people around here had "Microcom" machines. Those machines alone are more common at garage sales and thrift shops than real Apples. It's also the brand that I owned back in the 80s. Most other brands that I used to see in shops or at peoples houses have completely disappeared off the map. A friend of a friend had a really funky looking one that I wish I could remember the name of. At least 90% of the Apple clones I see are Microcom machines. They had a large store a couple of towns over from where I live, and even real Apple owners used to shop there for peripherals and expansion boards and software. I think most people went to them because they were pretty big and stable. I actually went back to them in 1987 to get my ][+ repaired. They were becoming quite big in the PC clone market by that time, and my father tried to talk me into buying a Microcom PC instead of an Amiga. I still have their PC clone brochures lying around somewhere. I think they opened up another store or two closer to the downtown core of Montreal, but they were eventually shut down by the RCMP. Or so goes the rumour. Because of their "Software Evaluation Club". I'll have to check with a friend who used their software piracy services, but I've inherited some disks with "CLUB 6502" stickers on them which might be from Microcom. > >So the Soviets pirated the Apple ][, who didn't? > > But you missed the point. No other >COUNTRY< tried to pass off a pirated > machine as their own. In fact, most cloners (pirates?) bragged about their > similarity to the original machine, the Soviets claimed that their machine > was an original design. To top it all off, they didn't even have the good > sense to change the copywrite notice! Yeah, OK, that's pretty bad. :) Some companies claimed compatability that wasn't there, though. But those weren't straight clones. (The Video Technologies Ltd. Laser 3000 isn't exactly 100% Apple compatible. :) ) > >Maybe I should start collecting Apple clones, seeing as I see them more > >frequently than actual Apples (clones were more affordable). > > That would probably be a pretty big collection just by itself! It sure would be! If I saw a McIntosh today, I'd grab it! > Joe Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Apr 29 02:56:29 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <199804221352.IAA25582@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > I fondly remember an issue of BYTE from long ago, that was the April > 1st edition, that had a phoney advertisement in it for a 'Lemon > Computer' that looked suspiciously like an Apple ][ (with a rather > distressed and dissheveled user scratching his head . .). Believe it or not, I think there *was* a "Lemon" Apple clone. My father and I still occasionally joke about it. And we didn't get it from BYTE. > This was long before BYTE became "The World's Computing Authority". > Back then, it still had a sense of humour. > Jeff Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Apr 29 03:27:54 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Maybe I should start collecting Apple clones, seeing as I see them more > > frequently than actual Apples (clones were more affordable). > > I think the clones are more interesting than the real Apples at this > point. They are more varied and in most areas are less common. More > importantly they do have a historical significance. Yes, they do have significance. At least now that "clone" means "PC" to most people. :/ Most of the clones were straight Apple rip-offs, but some of them did indeed have some character of their own. > > Too bad the //e won't work with any of my Z80 cards. :/ > > Hmmm...why is that? What do you get when you boot it up? When I do a cold boot, I invariably get a screen full of garbage, and the LED on the top of the Z80 card lights up. The LED will either stay on, or it will go off after about a second. Subsequent resets may get a screen full of garbage, with the light on or off. After the third or fourth reset, the screen will mostly or totally clear, and I'll get a "CAN'T FIND Z80 SOFTCARD" message. Once that message appears, that's usually all that will appear with any future resets, and there will be no activity from the LED. > I guess it could be your Z-80 card. It could be the //e as well, or it could be the ancient version of CP/M I've got. Looking through the disk image I've stored on my Amiga, I see "COPYRIGHT (C) 1979 DIGITAL RESEARCH", and APPLE ][ CP/M 56K VER. 2.20 (C) 1980 MICROSOFT > I used to have problems running my Microsoft > Softcard //e with my Transwarp II because of some bus conflict I imagine. Neither of my Z80 cards will work in my //e, with or without any other boards installed in the system. My //e motherboard is an 820-0064-A, and it's unenhanced. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Apr 29 03:31:59 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <19980422145616.2433.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> There were all kinds of small Apple cloners around, with various Apple > >> variety and fruit names ("Granny Smith", "McIntosh", "Pear", etc.). The > > Any lawsuits there with that second item? No, as far as I know, McIntosh didn't sue Apple for using such a similar name to theirs. :) Maybe that's why Apple changed the spelling! :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Apr 29 07:28:57 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: What's up with xkleten? In-Reply-To: <199804290540.WAA05719@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <13351654551.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [WHat happened to xkleten?] It's running now, don't know what happened. [As for old books...] I have a few old (KA-10 era) PDP-10 books: PDP-10 SYSTEM REFRENCE, some DEC sales material (Introducing the EXPANDABLE PDP-10!) and other miscellaneous. The pictures are wonderful, I'm gonna try scanning them someday. A good one is PDP-10 APPLICATIONS IN SCIENCE, a magazine-type thing, one of the articles is DEBUGGING IN SIMULATION by Robert Supnik... It's plenty old, but I'm not sure of a date, there is no date on the book. ------- From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 29 08:21:14 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... Message-ID: <002f01bd7371$c8a38420$3267bcc1@hotze> Hi. After getting a new M Board for my XT and a load of cards, I found that my Power Supply's now completely dead. So, where to I start? No fan, moves a turn or two, I know that the power connections good. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 29 08:25:43 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Anyone have a laptop they could sell me? Message-ID: <003001bd7372$51ae8620$3267bcc1@hotze> OK.. Manney has one, but hasn't gotten back to me on it yet. So anyway, here's the deal: I'm moving this summer, and so I need to stay online. (Yes, NEED, as I'm a panel member for http://www.webhostlist.com , so I NEED to stay connected.) So anyway, what I need is a laptop, or a hand held, that has TCP/IP stacks and a graphical interface for it (so that could be a 386 or later, or a newton, Mac, or anything else...) Oh, and this is intended to be a REALLY low cost thingy... Tim D. Hotze From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Apr 29 08:39:08 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... Message-ID: >> Hi. After getting a new M Board for my XT and a load of cards, I found >>that >> my Power Supply's now completely dead. So, where to I start? No fan, >>moves >> a turn or two, I know that the power connections good. Could you simply be overloading it? Seem to remember original IBM XT supplies do this when there's too much load on the system - does the supply seem to work without anything connected to it? The fan should at least spin then... It's equally likely that one of the cards you've got, or the motherboard itself is faulty in some way and is causing the supply to shut down. If you've got a voltmeter try checking the output voltages. Final possibility: did XT supplies have a "power good" reference line that the motherboard tied to +12V to signal that everything was Ok? Can't remember if this was only AT systems that provided this. If they did it may be that your new board doesn't provide it but the power supply expects it to (wait for someone else's words of wisdom I guess, been a while since I've fiddled with these things - if that is the cause though you should be able to simply tie the line to +12V and then everything should work... :) cheers Jules > > From jharper at bs2000.com Wed Apr 29 09:17:31 1998 From: jharper at bs2000.com (Jack Harper) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Anyone have a laptop they could sell me? (Hello Tim) In-Reply-To: <003001bd7372$51ae8620$3267bcc1@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980429081731.00d61494@teal.csn.net> At 16:25 4/29/98 +0300, you wrote: >OK.. Manney has one, but hasn't gotten back to me on it yet. So anyway, >here's the deal: I'm moving this summer, and so I need to stay online. >(Yes, NEED, as I'm a panel member for http://www.webhostlist.com , so I NEED >to stay connected.) > So anyway, what I need is a laptop, or a hand held, that has TCP/IP >stacks and a graphical interface for it (so that could be a 386 or later, or >a newton, Mac, or anything else...) > Oh, and this is intended to be a REALLY low cost thingy... > >Tim D. Hotze > > > Hello Tim... My wife has a TI laptop that she bought in about 1991 or so -- 20MB hard drive; floppy; runs DOS. This thing is obviously old (though in good shape) -- but you said 'REALLY low cost thingy' :) If you have any interest, let me know and I could sell the thing to you REALLY low cost. Regards Jack Harper Golden, Colorado --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper Bank Systems 2000, Inc. 303-277-1892 Golden, Colorado USA "21st Century Financial Applications" Optical Cards for Bank, EBT, and Medical Applications Visit our Web Page: http://www.bs2000.com/talos (Last Update: 980421) --------------------------------------------------------------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 29 10:12:23 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Kickstart and Workbench 1.2 for Amiga 1000 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980429101223.00bbd7d0@pc> "James L. Rice" wrote: >I've acquired a Amiga 1000 with monitor, mouse, scsi sidecar that try's >to boot up, but after booting kickstart, it asks for the Workbench 1.2 >disk. My disk seems to be defective because the drive cycles and the >picture of the workbench disk comes back up. Does anyone out there have >a copy? The symptoms you describe could also mean that your disk drive is out of alignment. Early Amiga OSes were floppy-bound and did a lot of gronking, which wore out a lot of drives. - John Jefferson Computer Museum From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 29 10:13:12 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: University of Washington surplus sale? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980429101312.00bbbc50@pc> I wrote: >I found a somewhat stale lead (last November) on three or four >Terak computers that were sold at the monthly University of Washington >surplus sale. Is there anyone on the list familiar with this sale? And then several people posted "tell me more". All I know is I found a mention via a search engine of three Teraks that were about to be tossed to their surplus center, and when I called the surplus center (University Surplus Property Warehouse, 206-685-1573) they said they auction 60-70 pallets of computers each month, so they had no recollection of these Teraks. Someone in the UW area must've got them! I hope they're not dumpstered. I also hold a slim hope that they weren't sold, and are still for sale. See my web site for an image of a Terak. Find them and send them to me. :-) - John Jefferson Computer Museum From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Apr 29 10:01:43 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: What's up with xkleten? In-Reply-To: Doug Yowza's message of Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:12:03 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199804291501.IAA23721@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Yowza writes: > PING xkleten.paulallen.com (204.202.80.66): 56 data bytes > 64 bytes from 204.202.80.66: icmp_seq=0 ttl=37 time=114.4 ms Hmm, last night (before I wrote that) I was having difficulty resolving the host name. This morning it seems to be OK. > I don't have an account there (Mr. Allen ignored my request (I guess he is > pretty smart after all)), but telnet seems to work fine. I didn't bother to ask when I saw the announcement -- no time to dink with it then and no good idea what I would do with it except log in and look around. Well, I guess I've found a solution to that latter part, now if I could just do something about the former. -Frank McConnell From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 29 10:50:38 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: University of Washington surplus sale? Message-ID: <004301bd7386$961655e0$3267bcc1@hotze> If this is the same University of Washington that hosts classiccmp... it's likely that Bill Whitson would have gotten them before any of us even had a crack at 'em. Possibly before the surplus people even got 'em, so there would be no record... vaguely, I mean VAGUELY I remember something about him getting Teraks... but I could have been dreaming. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 6:17 PM Subject: Re: University of Washington surplus sale? >I wrote: >>I found a somewhat stale lead (last November) on three or four >>Terak computers that were sold at the monthly University of Washington >>surplus sale. Is there anyone on the list familiar with this sale? > >And then several people posted "tell me more". All I know is >I found a mention via a search engine of three Teraks that were >about to be tossed to their surplus center, and when I called >the surplus center (University Surplus Property Warehouse, 206-685-1573) >they said they auction 60-70 pallets of computers each month, so >they had no recollection of these Teraks. Someone in the UW area >must've got them! I hope they're not dumpstered. I also hold a >slim hope that they weren't sold, and are still for sale. > >See my web site for an image of a Terak. Find them and send >them to me. :-) > >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Apr 29 12:26:07 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 Message-ID: <9803298938.AA893896115@compsci.powertech.co.uk> William Donzelli: > I do not think the Cray-1s used 10K ECL - I believe they were custom parts > and were faster (10K gates have a delay around 2 nS). Only four types of > chips were used in the whole beast - I think two were OR/NOR gates, one > was a flip-flop, and the other RAM. It is some years since I looked at the Cray 1 in the Deutches Museum in Muenchen (Munich), but I distinctly recall seeing lots of 10xxx chips in it. I remember I had just been given a board from the CPU of a Cyber two-hunderd-and-something (?) that had been thrown out by Muenchen Technical University a few months earlier, and this board has lots of 100xxx chips on it. Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Apr 29 12:30:59 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 Message-ID: <9803298938.AA893896295@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Doug: > Is the reason those old radio/phonograph boxes are not being thrown > away is that noone notice the cover and thinks it's just a pretty > dresser w/o drawers :)? Also hideaway sewing machines. :-) I doubt it... The real crime is those who buy sewing machines with pedestals and treadles, throw away the sewing machine and turn the pedestal into an olde worlde iron framed coffee table. I am told by a friend in the trade that this is v. common. > Of course, the System/36 (I think, maybe not) was built into a desk. There was a system/36 that was the size of a desk pedestal but I never saw that particular variant. The system/32 (and possibly the s/38?) had a desk built into _it_... > And then there were the teletypes (are the ones that are mostly used > as examples of teletypes ASR-33?), printers, etc. Yes. Philip. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Apr 29 11:35:00 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Year 2000 Bounty Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980428185659.3fa70ce6@ricochet.net> At 11:08 AM 4/24/98 -0400, you wrote: >Kip, is that magazine online anywhere? I haven't heard of it myself. > >Sounds like you are refering us to a rather interesting read! Try . It's the official publication of the Computer History Assn of California. I'm pretty sure it is on-line (though I haven't actually checked myself.) >Anybody who's got a better handle on the present population of minis and >mainframes still in service want to give an opinion on this? Well, I'm currently working with Long's Drugs (pharmacy chain in the western US). They have 352 (353 this weekend) stores and each one has an HP 3000 in it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Apr 29 12:41:20 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: First speaker announced for VCF2 Message-ID: <9803298938.AA893897015@compsci.powertech.co.uk> This is really for Sam, but I think it's worth posting to the list. > The first speaker has been confirmed for VCF2 this September. Does this mean you have firm dates yet? I'd like to book flights, time off work, etc. as soon as I can... > David Rutland was an engineer on a lesser known but very significant > computer dedicated in 1950 called the SWAC (National Bureau of Standards > Western Automatic Computer). Sounds fun! It occurs to me that I gave a small talk on the Tek 4050 series last autumn (fall). I'd like to come to the VCF, and I could probably bring my 4052 and some demo programs, and give an adapted version of the talk (either in a scheduled slot or probably more suitably on a demo stand with the machine). Finally, Sam, could you put me on the VCF mailing list, please. I tried to subscribe from the web page but we've just migrated to Lusedoze Not Tolerable and Internut Exploder, with the result that I couldn't get it to work... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 29 12:43:53 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 References: <9803298938.AA893896295@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <354766D8.F628ACA9@bbtel.com> Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > Doug: > > > Is the reason those old radio/phonograph boxes are not being thrown > > away is that noone notice the cover and thinks it's just a pretty > > dresser w/o drawers :)? Also hideaway sewing machines. > > :-) I doubt it... Sometimes. I do quite a bit of antique electronics repair as well and I had a person ask me why someone would attach a radio into an amoire...It was an old RCA in a full sized cabinet (factory) and went at a consignment shop for $40 US. I stopped her just in time to talk her into leaving it be and either let me find a buyer for it as a radio or repair it for her. She's never seen anything like it, but to be expected. The woman was a mere 25 yrs old. I have socks older than that. > The real crime is those who buy sewing machines with pedestals and > treadles, throw away the sewing machine and turn the pedestal into an > olde worlde iron framed coffee table. I am told by a friend in the > trade that this is v. common. Yep it is. I was lucky last year in that someone did that to an old original Singer but they put the head in the barn and amazingly it stayed dry. I was rooting through odds-n-ends and found the machine head but no base. I bought that for $5 and while talking to the people in the house I noticed a hall table stacked up with magazines - the base! I talked them into trading a much nicer real table and I was able to get the whole thing back together and my wife now has it proudly in the corner of the sewing room and actually uses it from time to time. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From worldsfate at mail.geocities.com Wed Apr 29 15:09:46 1998 From: worldsfate at mail.geocities.com (Tim Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Just another e-mail address... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980429200946.00799a80@mail.geocities.com> OK.. because I'm moving to Georgetown, Guyana, I'm using this e-mail address to keep in contact while I'm moving. So, until June, the other one will still be active, but in the mean time, try to send messages to photze@batelco.com.bh and worldsfate@geocities.com . I'm not subscribed to this list with this e-mail address, but I'll get ClassicCmp with the other one. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze --------------------------------------------------- *Tim D. Hotze Co-Founder, The Review Guide * *http://members.theglobe.com/ReviewGuide/index.htm* *Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List * --------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 29 12:35:58 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: HP 1611A probes Message-ID: <9804291835.ZM7419@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> I can't remember who mentioned they had a 1611A without probes, but I checked it out in the lab today. The pod with the ZIF socket and Z80 clip does have a little "stuff" in it, but the "ordinary" microprobes are simply buffered by a little box containing a pair of 8T37 buffers and a few decoupling capacitors. This box is connected by a plain ribbon cable to a connector on the 1611A. If you need to know the connections/layout, I'm sure it would be easy to reverse-engineer. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 29 12:58:58 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 Message-ID: <199804291758.AA11774@world.std.com> <> I do not think the Cray-1s used 10K ECL - I believe they were custom pa <> and were faster (10K gates have a delay around 2 nS). Only four types o <> chips were used in the whole beast - I think two were OR/NOR gates, one <> was a flip-flop, and the other RAM. Thay may have been custom but the "generation" of ECL is 10k and that refer to parts but also a performance level. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 29 12:44:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... In-Reply-To: from "Julian Richardson" at Apr 29, 98 02:39:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2970 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980429/5a183038/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 29 13:39:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: <9803298938.AA893896295@compsci.powertech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Apr 29, 98 05:30:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2132 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980429/aa44d154/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bbtel.com Wed Apr 29 15:24:26 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... References: Message-ID: <35478C79.FC542584@bbtel.com> Tony Duell wrote: > According to my schematics, the fan runs off the 12V line through a > dropping resistor. And all the supply outputs come from the same chopper > transformer. > > An XT (or any other genuine IBM PSU) will shut down if it detects an > error. This means if it's overloaded, or if one of the output voltages > goes out of tolerance (too high _or_ too low). For some reason it'll also > shut down if it's got no load at all - so if you power up the XT PSU not > connected to anything, the fan gives a small 'kick' and then it shuts > down. At least all mine do. > > I'd connect the PSU to a dummy load (how to do that is in the FAQ or I'll > go through it _again_) and see what it does. Then connect just the > motherboard and see what that does. And then add cards one at a time > (switching off before you add another card, of course) and see what happens. Plug a broken but running hard disk to a power supply as a load and you'll be able to keep it running with a load on it. You can also hook a 6v flashlight bulb to the +5 line and accomplish this too. Shutdown in a no-load state is normal for many power supplies. Other than a screw across two header leads I've never seen an overload that didn't pop the fuse inside the power supply. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 29 16:57:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Amstrad PPC640 mains adapter Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1246 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980429/2baee4ff/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Wed Apr 29 14:36:40 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: First speaker announced for VCF2 In-Reply-To: <9803298938.AA893897015@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > This is really for Sam, but I think it's worth posting to the list. > > > The first speaker has been confirmed for VCF2 this September. > > Does this mean you have firm dates yet? I'd like to book flights, time > off work, etc. as soon as I can... I'll post this reply publicly for everyone's edification. I'm sorry if the web page is vague about the date (it is), but there is not a firm date yet. So far the show will most likely fall somewhere inside September. The venue that I'm currently negotiating with (The Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA) has the dates of September 25-27 set aside for me should I decide to stage it there. I'd really like to as it is a nice facility and is right in the middle of the Silicon Valley which is good for all sorts of reasons, but the price is a lot higher than last year's venue (by about twice as much). But I should have a firm date hopefully within 4 weeks. I realize people need to make reservations and the earlier the better, but know that I am working hard to secure a venue as quickly as possible. At this point there is a good chance that I will choose the SCCC and the dates will be September 25-27, but don't base your travel plans around that yet. It all depends on what sort of financing I can secure in the next 3 or 4 weeks. > It occurs to me that I gave a small talk on the Tek 4050 series last > autumn (fall). I'd like to come to the VCF, and I could probably bring > my 4052 and some demo programs, and give an adapted version of the talk > (either in a scheduled slot or probably more suitably on a demo stand > with the machine). I'll talk to you about this offline. > Finally, Sam, could you put me on the VCF mailing list, please. I tried > to subscribe from the web page but we've just migrated to Lusedoze Not > Tolerable and Internut Exploder, with the result that I couldn't get it > to work... Hmmmm...I thought I tested it under MSIE and it should be working. I'll check again. If anyone else is experiencing problems with the forms features then please let me know. Thanks for the tip. And yes, I will add you to the notification list. To be addded to the mailing list I'll need your physical address, unless you just want e-mail updates. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From william at ans.net Wed Apr 29 19:19:04 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: <9803298938.AA893896115@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: > It is some years since I looked at the Cray 1 in the Deutches Museum in > Muenchen (Munich), but I distinctly recall seeing lots of 10xxx chips in > it. Maybe you are correct, but I am skeptical. 10K ECL just is not that fast (2nS typical gate delay, 2.9nS worst case). The Cray-1s had only a 12.5nS clock! 100K was just on the horizon at the time, so it was out of the running, but MECL III was around at the time, and was a bit faster. Perhaps you looked at a board from a Cray SSD (Solid state Storage Device - basically a memory expansion)? > I remember I had just been given a board from the CPU of a Cyber > two-hunderd-and-something (?) that had been thrown out by Muenchen > Technical University a few months earlier, and this board has lots of > 100xxx chips on it. Cyber 203 or 205. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 29 19:26:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Kickstart and Workbench 1.2 for Amiga 1000 References: <3.0.1.32.19980429101223.00bbd7d0@pc> Message-ID: <3547C529.BCC411EB@cnct.com> John Foust wrote: > > "James L. Rice" wrote: > >I've acquired a Amiga 1000 with monitor, mouse, scsi sidecar that try's > >to boot up, but after booting kickstart, it asks for the Workbench 1.2 > >disk. My disk seems to be defective because the drive cycles and the > >picture of the workbench disk comes back up. Does anyone out there have > >a copy? > > The symptoms you describe could also mean that your disk drive is > out of alignment. Early Amiga OSes were floppy-bound and did a lot > of gronking, which wore out a lot of drives. Plus the stock drives (Hitachi? it's been awhile) were (I'm trying and failing to come up with a nice word) shitty. When Data Systems West in Sherman Oaks delivered an A-2000 to the entertainment industry (some of our machines were involved with the early days of "Babylon 5" years later), the stock drives were replaced with TEACs. Of course, the typical Amiga system we delivered was close to $20k -- we didn't sell any A-500s as a matter of (the boss's) policy. [I was there mostly to support Unix sales -- but the Amiga gooroo and I were two of the three smokers who had to nick out the back door occasionally -- we exchanged a lot of data.] Eventually I will own an Amiga, but it will be modified much the way David's was and rack mounted. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 29 19:39:35 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? References: Message-ID: <3547C847.76267C9E@cnct.com> Doug Spence wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > >> There were all kinds of small Apple cloners around, with various Apple > > >> variety and fruit names ("Granny Smith", "McIntosh", "Pear", etc.). The > > > > Any lawsuits there with that second item? > > No, as far as I know, McIntosh didn't sue Apple for using such a similar > name to theirs. :) > > Maybe that's why Apple changed the spelling! :) Apple used the spelling I learned from my grandmother for the breed of fruit grown most often in her part of New Hampshire. Well, my part too during my high school years -- a hell of a place to dump an unsuspecting Angeleno kid. I still recall the Apple clones mostly being later than the TRS-80 knock-offs -- and the Byte article about the $15,000 Russian version was not earlier than 1986 -- I remember which employer's toilet I was sitting on when I read it. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 29 20:42:31 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... Message-ID: <63be09e6.3547d708@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-29 09:23:09 EDT, you write: << Hi. After getting a new M Board for my XT and a load of cards, I found that my Power Supply's now completely dead. So, where to I start? No fan, moves a turn or two, I know that the power connections good. Thanks, >> heres a quick and dirty way to test one: if you have a hard drive, plug that into one of the power connectors, then hit the switch. that will let you know if its working or not. this test will work, as i use an xt supply just to run a scsi drive for my mac when i bring it out for testing once in a while. if not working, i have several extra xt supplies i need to get rid of. message me privately if interested. david From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 29 21:00:10 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... Message-ID: <80bbf86f.3547db2b@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-29 16:12:26 EDT, you write: << > >> Hi. After getting a new M Board for my XT and a load of cards, I found > >>that > >> my Power Supply's now completely dead. So, where to I start? No fan, > >>moves > >> a turn or two, I know that the power connections good. > > Could you simply be overloading it? >> as long as its an xt power supply and not one from a 5150 pc, there should be no problems. the 5150 was only 63watts, which was good for maybe floppy drives. the xt has an ~80 watt power supply so there shouldnt be any danger of overloading unless it was dodgy to begin with. ive a loaded up xt and the power supply handles it just fine. david From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Apr 29 22:25:48 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... Message-ID: <001601bd73e7$d6fd3540$2467bcc1@hotze> That's odd. My power supply's 130W. It's also the 220v variety, as that's what's available here. It was made in Dublin, Ireland. It really looks like it was how it was made, as it looks REALLY built-in to the case. Anyway, I can't see any reason that it would be dememanding too much power, all I have connected is a XT clone motherboard, (however, it WAS sitting in an XT case) and a XT floppy drive connected. So, any ideas? I think that it was just this PS's time to go.... and it was two weeks one day older than I am! Thanks for the help. I might need a new PSU, as I'm not good at this type of thing. After testing it with a dummy load, just a HDD, and a FDD (one at a time), and rechecking all my power connections, I think that it REALLY is dead. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 5:06 AM Subject: Re: XT Power Supply help... >In a message dated 98-04-29 16:12:26 EDT, you write: > ><< > >> Hi. After getting a new M Board for my XT and a load of cards, I >found > > >>that > > >> my Power Supply's now completely dead. So, where to I start? No fan, > > >>moves > > >> a turn or two, I know that the power connections good. > > > > Could you simply be overloading it? >> >as long as its an xt power supply and not one from a 5150 pc, there should be >no problems. the 5150 was only 63watts, which was good for maybe floppy >drives. the xt has an ~80 watt power supply so there shouldnt be any danger of >overloading unless it was dodgy to begin with. ive a loaded up xt and the >power supply handles it just fine. > >david From transit at primenet.com Wed Apr 29 23:37:39 1998 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Doug Spence wrote: > > > On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > >> There were all kinds of small Apple cloners around, with various Apple > > >> variety and fruit names ("Granny Smith", "McIntosh", "Pear", etc.). The > > > > Any lawsuits there with that second item? > > No, as far as I know, McIntosh didn't sue Apple for using such a similar > name to theirs. :) I vaguely recall a licensing arrangement between McIntosh (the stereo people) and Apple, allowing Apple to call the computer "Macintosh". Heck, wasn't the name "Apple" licensed from the British record company of the same name (Apple the computer company could use the name as long as they didn't get into the music business. . .which made things get interesting when people started doing MIDI stuff with Macs . . .) From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Apr 29 23:46:11 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? In-Reply-To: <3547C847.76267C9E@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Doug Spence wrote: > > > > On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > > > > > >> There were all kinds of small Apple cloners around, with various Apple > > > >> variety and fruit names ("Granny Smith", "McIntosh", "Pear", etc.). The > > > > > > Any lawsuits there with that second item? > > > > No, as far as I know, McIntosh didn't sue Apple for using such a similar > > name to theirs. :) > > > > Maybe that's why Apple changed the spelling! :) > > Apple used the spelling I learned from my grandmother for the breed > of fruit grown most often in her part of New Hampshire. Well, my > part too during my high school years -- a hell of a place to dump an > unsuspecting Angeleno kid. Up here we spell it "McIntosh", after the apple's discoverer, John McIntosh of Ontario. We pronounce it "MacIntosh", though. And when speaking, it's often abbreviated to just "Mac". McIntosh apples in the local grocery store bear stickers that read "McIntosh". Also, my uncle has an apple orchard and he sells Macs as well as other varieties. So I contend that Apple Computer Inc. has mispelled the name, or has named the computer for something else. Perhaps it was starting its "scientist/apple" naming sceme. :) I don't know how the folks in New Hampshire spell the name of the (fruit) apple variety. I'll have to take your word for it that they spell it "Macintosh". As with many family names, there are multiple spellings for the same pronunciation. But the man the apple variety is named after seems to be "McIntosh". Does anyone know what Apple Computer's intentions were, if any, with the spelling of "Macintosh"? Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Apr 29 23:58:43 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2 update Message-ID: I finally had enough time today to go to Canadian Tire and pick up a set of allen wrenches, so I finally pulled the disk drives out of my ailing Kaypro 2. I moved the resistor pack to what was formerly drive A, and swapped the jumper blocks, put everything back together... and it worked! The Kaypro 2 booted up WordStar with absolutely no problems. Now drive B (formerly drive A) can't be accessed. It gets a "Bdos Err On B: Bad Sector" on known good disks. So it's definitely the drive that's bad. Mechanically the drive seems sound, so I guess I have to assume that there's something wrong with the electronics. I haven't done a side-by-side comparison with a working Tandon drive to see if there's any obvious differences, though. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 30 00:01:00 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... References: <80bbf86f.3547db2b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3548058C.61218AF0@bbtel.com> SUPRDAVE wrote: > > Could you simply be overloading it? >> > as long as its an xt power supply and not one from a 5150 pc, there should be > no problems. the 5150 was only 63watts, which was good for maybe floppy > drives. the xt has an ~80 watt power supply so there shouldnt be any danger of > overloading unless it was dodgy to begin with. ive a loaded up xt and the > power supply handles it just fine. There were plenty of them, just like the substandard Sanyo MBC-55x series, that were modified with a different value resistor to change the cutoff point of the power supply when the onset of high current requirements came about. I remember seeing 5150 power supply mods listed in many magazines back then and have done tow or three as well but I couldn't tell you for the life of me what resistor and what value, even on the Sanyos where I must have done 20 different machines with a similar mod when we had a micro club in central Illinois. With all the technical manuals and old magazines that people on the list have I'm surprised that one of the IBM tech journals or field service manuals doesn't have the mod listed. Unless it's a definite requirement to have an exact replacement you might take someone up on a clone XT power supply since I've seen them up to 150 watts in generic cases. I know the first barebones, no name clone had at least a 135 watt if not a 150 and it should fit like a glove. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Apr 30 00:28:49 1998 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Grid Laptop FS Message-ID: <3.0.16.19980429125637.3f9f15da@ricochet.net> At 07:14 PM 4/28/98, you wrote: >GRID 8088 XT Laptop. Rugged Construction. 720k FDD, No HDD, 512k Mem, >SER/PAR, Plasma Screen, AC Adapter Module substitutes battery. Works >Perfectly. Good for diagnostics, automotive, marine, etc. Excellent >condition. Buyer prepays with money order or check and pays shipping. It sounds like a GridCase3. Probably worth $45 easy. That AC module is definitely worth something. If I hadn't just bought a TRS-80 m600 and a Televideo Portable PC, I'd probably go for it, but (luckily?) I already have one. Sure would like that AC Module, though! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 30 00:58:02 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: NEC portable FS Message-ID: <354812EA.67705D0D@bbtel.com> I hate to flood all of you with more stuff but this machine is going unused here and collecting dust. It may be of interest to a collector or of use to someone as a Windows portable. NEC APC IV 286-10 processor, HDD, blue EGA LCD screen, CGA/EGA external monitor port, internal modem, 2.6 mb RAM on 640k system memory and AST card, serial and parallel ports, new 1.44m floppy, external "backpack" 5.25" floppy, manual, keyboard, 1 additional open 16 bit ISA slot, power cord, etc. has Windows 3.11 and DOS 6.2 loaded on HDD. . $135 US plus shipping. Excellent condition. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Apr 30 04:09:51 1998 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: First speaker announced for VCF2 Message-ID: <9803308939.AA893952639@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > Finally, Sam, could you put me on the VCF mailing list, please. I tried > > to subscribe from the web page but we've just migrated to Lusedoze Not > > Tolerable and Internut Exploder, with the result that I couldn't get it > > to work... > > Hmmmm...I thought I tested it under MSIE and it should be working. I'll > check again. If anyone else is experiencing problems with the forms > features then please let me know. Thanks for the tip. And yes, I will > add you to the notification list. To be addded to the mailing list I'll > need your physical address, unless you just want e-mail updates. Sorry, Sam, what I meant was our systems here are badly set up. And I refuse to spend hours trying to get WNT to do things properly when it's probably not capable of it. When I try to use your forms page, Internut Exploder asks for a directory in which to store outgoing e-mails and then won't accept any that I give it. (For the record, I am _not_ a computing/IT/whatever person at work - it's merely my hobby. Eventually I will get TCP/IP on one of my UNIX boxen at home and get a personal connection...) Physical address will follow by private e-mail. Philip. From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Apr 30 04:30:55 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... Message-ID: >> > Could you simply be overloading it? >> >> as long as its an xt power supply and not one from a 5150 pc, there should >>be >> no problems. the 5150 was only 63watts, which was good for maybe floppy >> drives. the xt has an ~80 watt power supply > ... hmm, I've overloaded a standard XT (80W) supply before trying to run a couple of the original 10MB hard drives (amongst other things!). Guess it depends on what cards and stuff you're running (some of those old full-length boards drew a hell of a lot of power...) I've got an old pre-XT machine somewhere with the 63W supply, I seem to remember it wouldn't even power one 10MB drive with motherboard and a single floppy drive in place... I can't remember why on earth I even tried it though, I don't think the pre-XT machines (what was their proper title btw?) would even run a hard drive... cheers Jules From Marty at itgonline.com Thu Apr 30 08:04:18 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... Message-ID: <1998Apr30.090333.1767.99791@smtp.itgonline.com> I've never seen an 80W power supply. All original IBM 5150 PC's I worked on had a 63W power supply and the IBM XT's all had a 130W power supply. You mentioned your supply has a 220V selection? If so and you are stateside, make certain it is in the 110V position. If you have a 220V power supply that doesn't have a 110V selection and you're stateside... you're out of luck. I concur with all those previous respondents that this supply of yours is most likely good but loaded down either by excessive loading (more cards/memory/drives than the P/S can service) or a short circuit in one of the add-on boards or drives. Just unload until you find the cause. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: XT Power Supply help... Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 4/29/98 11:34 PM That's odd. My power supply's 130W. It's also the 220v variety, as that's what's available here. It was made in Dublin, Ireland. It really looks like it was how it was made, as it looks REALLY built-in to the case. Anyway, I can't see any reason that it would be dememanding too much power, all I have connected is a XT clone motherboard, (however, it WAS sitting in an XT case) and a XT floppy drive connected. So, any ideas? I think that it was just this PS's time to go.... and it was two weeks one day older than I am! Thanks for the help. I might need a new PSU, as I'm not good at this type of thing. After testing it with a dummy load, just a HDD, and a FDD (one at a time), and rechecking all my power connections, I think that it REALLY is dead. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 5:06 AM Subject: Re: XT Power Supply help... >In a message dated 98-04-29 16:12:26 EDT, you write: > ><< > >> Hi. After getting a new M Board for my XT and a load of cards, I >found > > >>that > > >> my Power Supply's now completely dead. So, where to I start? No fan, > > >>moves > > >> a turn or two, I know that the power connections good. > > > > Could you simply be overloading it? >> >as long as its an xt power supply and not one from a 5150 pc, there should be >no problems. the 5150 was only 63watts, which was good for maybe floppy >drives. the xt has an ~80 watt power supply so there shouldnt be any danger of >overloading unless it was dodgy to begin with. ive a loaded up xt and the >power supply handles it just fine. > >david ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Apr29.233404.1767.39454; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:34:05 -0400 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id UAA06172; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:27:07 -0700 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA63124 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:27:01 -0700 Received: from sv10.batelco.com.bh (sv10.batelco.com.bh [193.188.97.227]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id UAA30480 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:26:58 -0700 Received: from hotze ([193.188.103.36]) by sv10.batelco.com.bh (post.office MTA v1.9.3b ID# 0-13092) with SMTP id AAA21936 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:26:53 +0300 Message-Id: <001601bd73e7$d6fd3540$2467bcc1@hotze> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:25:48 +0300 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Hotze" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: XT Power Supply help... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From cfandt at servtech.com Thu Apr 30 08:01:19 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: <9803298938.AA893896295@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199804301306.JAA15564@cyber2.servtech.com> At 17:30 29-04-98 +0000, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: >Doug: > >> Is the reason those old radio/phonograph boxes are not being thrown >> away is that noone notice the cover and thinks it's just a pretty >> dresser w/o drawers :)? Also hideaway sewing machines. > >:-) I doubt it... > >The real crime is those who buy sewing machines with pedestals and >treadles, throw away the sewing machine and turn the pedestal into an >olde worlde iron framed coffee table. I am told by a friend in the >trade that this is v. common. There were folks who took a late-20's/early 30's radio which was built into a beautiful wooden cabinet and turned it into a piece of furniture by gutting it. Then there were the late 40's and early 50's TV cabinets which met the same fate. At least I've rescued several of each of these kinds of receivers for my collection. >> Of course, the System/36 (I think, maybe not) was built into a desk. > >There was a system/36 that was the size of a desk pedestal but I never >saw that particular variant. The system/32 (and possibly the s/38?) had >a desk built into _it_... Anybody remember seeing (or even heard of) the HP250 business computer? Hewlett Packard offered it built in two ways: one was a desk-like arrangement while the other was the standard box-like cabinet on wheels. Electronically, both were pretty much identical except the desk or console style had a CRT display built into it. I've got the wheeled cabinet style 250/30 system with separate terminals (a HP2622 variant). The computer cabinet is the same dimensions as the typical HP7908/HP791x fixed disk drive units. Used the processor from the HP9845 with probably a bit different microcoding to allow multiple users and/or strictly business style useage. Gotta find more on this sometime soon. > >> And then there were the teletypes (are the ones that are mostly used >> as examples of teletypes ASR-33?), printers, etc. > >Yes. That's right. I have several 33's. One is an exceptionally clean/unused one I got in 1985 from a group of test equipment from the IBM Endicott plant which was shut down around then. Just right for my DG Nova 1200. It's a noisy thing especially when I used to hook it up to my R390 communications receiver through a terminal unit and listen to RTTY (radioteletype) in the ham bands or commercial traffic elsewhere in the shortwave frequencies. That 33 was probably one of the last 33's built at the TeleType Corp. plant. I can check that out with the folks in the Greenkeys listserver group. --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 30 08:07:42 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-30 00:39:32 EDT, you write: << Heck, wasn't the name "Apple" licensed from the British record company of the same name (Apple the computer company could use the name as long as they didn't get into the music business. . .which made things get interesting when people started doing MIDI stuff with Macs . . .) >> yea, wasnt it the beatles who had something called apple records or something like that? i remember reading somewhere sometime long ago about the legalities of it. obviously, apple records got precedence because they were there first. did apple computer ever have to pay money for the resolution? david From cfandt at servtech.com Thu Apr 30 08:40:56 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: References: <9803298938.AA893896295@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199804301346.JAA16477@cyber2.servtech.com> At 19:39 29-04-98 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Doug: >> >> > Is the reason those old radio/phonograph boxes are not being thrown -- snip -- >> The real crime is those who buy sewing machines with pedestals and >> treadles, throw away the sewing machine and turn the pedestal into an >> olde worlde iron framed coffee table. I am told by a friend in the >> trade that this is v. common. > >I agree... About 15 years ago I rescued a Bang and Olufsen Colour TV in a >beautiful wooden cabinet. Had I not grabbed it, it would have been turned >into a cupboard... > >One day I must get round to repairing it... Good luck in repairing/restoring it. > >\begin{off-topic} > >It's a 3200 chassis - a hybrid of valves and transistors. All the -- snip neat stuff I'm into and understand but not used to those "strange" tube(valve) numbers :-) >\end{off-topic} > >One related problem with minicomputers is that on several occasions I've >been told 'You can have the computer and all the peripherals, but we want >the rack' The standard 19" racks used by just about everybody are still >useful today for test equipment. > >So a lot of my machines are either a pile of boxes or in non-original >racks. It doesn't bother me too much since to me the circuitry is the >important thing, but it probably would bother some people. > >> Philip. > >-tony I had a problem when I got my IBM 9370 system in which I WANTED the rack cabinets but had absolutelly NO way of getting them into my house. Each of the two steel cabinets were too large and rather hard to handle. IIRC, they were 29"(74 cm) wide, 36" (91 cm) deep and about 72" (183 cm) tall and each weighed nearly 300 pounds when completely stripped. (Hmmm, there beggets our expression "big iron".) The only place they could go was into the basement. Stairway much too small. The garage was out of the question as we live in a climate with COLD winters and cool, damp springs and autumns. So, when I was given this big iron thing I had to let the salvage yard take the empty cabinets. Darn, drat, doggonit, %~^# !, etc. The system still works with the DASD (hard drives) and other components stacked upon each other though it won't finish its IPL. Gotta troubleshoot that later this year. Even in our new house we just moved into a month ago, the same darned thing: if I had the cabinets, they still could not fit into the house :( By the way, a second, more minor problem was my wife. When I was describing the size of the 9370 system before I brought it home, here eyes got real big and she stated: "Just where are you going to put that!??!" And when I got two six foot tall 19"rack cabinets from an old machine controller at work that I tore down, I temporarily set them in the new garage sometime before we moved in. She spied them, stared at them for a few seconds and asked "What are _those_ monstrosities?" I had to do some quick explaining to get through that incident. She generally supports my collecting though. Wish I could afford a heated, insulated garage. -- Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Apr 30 09:05:12 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: The PC's Soviet? Message-ID: <000a01bd7441$02a4e860$536fbcc1@hotze> Yep, Apple Records. Actually, it was founded by Paul Macarthney (however you spell it) and John Lenon, the Beatles. Their idea was to have people coming in, and doing what they wanted, getting profits for their records, and not having to go beg the brass at some corporation. They lost more and more money, into the 80's, when they were "eaten up" by Capitol records. The Beatles CD's available now from capitol still feature the Apple logo (not Apple Computer), and the CD's also have it. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 4:10 PM Subject: Re: The PC's Soviet? >In a message dated 98-04-30 00:39:32 EDT, you write: > ><< Heck, wasn't the name "Apple" licensed from the British record company of > the same name (Apple the computer company could use the name as long as > they didn't get into the music business. . .which made things get > interesting when people started doing MIDI stuff with Macs . . .) > >> > >yea, wasnt it the beatles who had something called apple records or something >like that? i remember reading somewhere sometime long ago about the legalities >of it. obviously, apple records got precedence because they were there first. >did apple computer ever have to pay money for the resolution? > >david From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Apr 30 09:56:50 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: <199804301306.JAA15564@cyber2.servtech.com> References: <9803298938.AA893896295@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199804301434.JAA25789@onyx.southwind.net> > At 17:30 29-04-98 +0000, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > >Doug: > > > >> Is the reason those old radio/phonograph boxes are not being thrown > >> away is that noone notice the cover and thinks it's just a pretty > >> dresser w/o drawers :)? Also hideaway sewing machines. > > > >:-) I doubt it... > > > >The real crime is those who buy sewing machines with pedestals and > >treadles, throw away the sewing machine and turn the pedestal into an > >olde worlde iron framed coffee table. I am told by a friend in the > >trade that this is v. common. > > There were folks who took a late-20's/early 30's radio which was built into > a beautiful wooden cabinet and turned it into a piece of furniture by > gutting it. Then there were the late 40's and early 50's TV cabinets which > met the same fate. At least I've rescued several of each of these kinds of > receivers for my collection. Then there was this girl I was dating while I lived in Baltimore in the early 80's. Her dad had a vintage (early 20th cent.)'magneto' (u-crank-it) telephone he mounted on the wall in their basement as a conversation piece. He felt it was 'too heavy' so before mounting it he gutted the thing. So many historic relics have been destroyed in the name of 'interior decoration'. Jeff From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Apr 30 10:16:17 1998 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:35 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: <199804301434.JAA25789@onyx.southwind.net> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Apr 30, 98 08:56:50 am Message-ID: <199804301516.IAA20202@fraser.sfu.ca> > > >> Is the reason those old radio/phonograph boxes are not being thrown > > >> away is that noone notice the cover and thinks it's just a pretty > > >> dresser w/o drawers :)? Also hideaway sewing machines. As a collector of old radios from the 20s and 30s, I too have seen several beautiful old cabinets gutted and transformed into things like wine bottle holders. Our most recent find in this area was a King Radio cabinet, a 20s classic, with labelling still intact. The hinged top had been screwed down, the finish stripped, and the handles replaced by gaudy 70s wrought-iron ones. The interior had been made into a wine rack. I was able to un-fasten the lid, remove the "wine rack" bits, and with a little more work the cabinet now holds an Atwater-Kent model 10-B breadboard radio from 1923. It's nice to put these "modernizations" right when possible. Kevin > > >The real crime is those who buy sewing machines with pedestals and > > >treadles, throw away the sewing machine and turn the pedestal into an > > >olde worlde iron framed coffee table. I am told by a friend in the > > >trade that this is v. common. > > > > There were folks who took a late-20's/early 30's radio which was built into > > a beautiful wooden cabinet and turned it into a piece of furniture by > > gutting it. Then there were the late 40's and early 50's TV cabinets which > > met the same fate. At least I've rescued several of each of these kinds of > > receivers for my collection. > > Then there was this girl I was dating while I lived in Baltimore in > the early 80's. Her dad had a vintage (early 20th cent.)'magneto' > (u-crank-it) telephone he mounted on the wall in their basement as a > conversation piece. He felt it was 'too heavy' so before mounting > it he gutted the thing. So many historic relics have been destroyed > in the name of 'interior decoration'. > > Jeff > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu Apr 30 11:16:18 1998 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: <199804301516.IAA20202@fraser.sfu.ca> References: <199804301434.JAA25789@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980430121618.00692f58@mail.wincom.net> At 08:16 AM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >> > >> Is the reason those old radio/phonograph boxes are not being thrown >> > >> away is that noone notice the cover and thinks it's just a pretty >> > >> dresser w/o drawers :)? Also hideaway sewing machines. > >As a collector of old radios from the 20s and 30s, I too have seen several >beautiful old cabinets gutted and transformed into things like wine bottle >holders. > >Our most recent find in this area was a King Radio cabinet, a 20s classic, >with labelling still intact. The hinged top had been screwed down, the >finish stripped, and the handles replaced by gaudy 70s wrought-iron ones. >The interior had been made into a wine rack. > >I was able to un-fasten the lid, remove the "wine rack" bits, and with a >little more work the cabinet now holds an Atwater-Kent model 10-B >breadboard radio from 1923. > >It's nice to put these "modernizations" right when possible. > >Kevin > >-- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca > > Having been in the radio repair business back in the '40s and '50s, I had many of those old relics dumped on my bench. The biggest problem was the genuine rubber coated wire in the days before plastic. It would get brittle and crumble off the conductor which, combined with the voltage used in those days, resulted in some rather spectacular activity. Personally I was happy when the owners decided to convert them to liquor cabinets. Cheers Charlie Fox From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 12:23:12 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... In-Reply-To: <80bbf86f.3547db2b@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE" at Apr 29, 98 10:00:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 994 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980430/2f6001c3/attachment.ksh From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Apr 30 13:03:36 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <199804301802.NAA14211@falcon.inetnebr.com> For your consideration. As always, if you get screwed on this stuff, I will deny any knowledge of your existence. ;-) >For Sale- Collectors Items. > >Osborne 1 and Vixen Computers by owner. > >The ORIGINAL portables. > >Manuals and Software included. > >Make offer. > >Respond to Joe at joab@ix.nectom.com > -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf Simulator!) From altair8800 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 30 13:18:10 1998 From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Production figures? Message-ID: <19980430181810.16973.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anyone know the production figures for either the Altair 8800, the Imsai 8080 or the Processor Tech SOL 20? If actual numbers are not available I would really appreciate getting an educated guess. Thanks much, Bob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 30 13:33:59 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Production figures? In-Reply-To: <19980430181810.16973.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Bob Wood wrote: > Does anyone know the production figures for > either the Altair 8800, the Imsai 8080 or > the Processor Tech SOL 20? If actual numbers > are not available I would really appreciate > getting an educated guess. The number I've heard on the Altair is 10,000 (probably based on the 4 digit counter part of the serial number). IMSAI was higher, but I don't know the number. No idea about SOL. -- Doug From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu Apr 30 13:48:31 1998 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: FS: Mac 128 Message-ID: <3548C77F.D5D@polymail.calpoly.edu> I used to subscribe to this list but my mailbox couldn't take it. I guess if you'reading this, it got through. I'm selling a Mac 128 on eBay. The bid is up to about $60 and the auction ends today. If anyone is interested in it just go to the link below and bid through the auction. You will have to pay shipping so keep that in mind. 11941337: Original Macintosh! 128K / KB / FD / More! Current bid: $51.00 Auction ends on: 04/30/98 18:31:45 PDT http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=11941337 I also have another 128 that seems to work but has a dead screen. And a pile of the external floppy drives (3 I think). Includes keyboard and mouse. Accepting offers. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 12:34:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... In-Reply-To: <3548058C.61218AF0@bbtel.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Apr 30, 98 00:01:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 730 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980430/700c2480/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 13:05:22 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... In-Reply-To: <1998Apr30.090333.1767.99791@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Apr 30, 98 09:04:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1180 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980430/ea6a326a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 12:49:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: <199804301346.JAA16477@cyber2.servtech.com> from "Christian Fandt" at Apr 30, 98 09:40:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2963 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980430/b8cce0a3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 12:55:51 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... In-Reply-To: <001601bd73e7$d6fd3540$2467bcc1@hotze> from "Hotze" at Apr 30, 98 06:25:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1297 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980430/1e360220/attachment.ksh From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Apr 30 15:21:22 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... In-Reply-To: References: <3548058C.61218AF0@bbtel.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Apr 30, 98 00:01:00 am Message-ID: >The IBM manuals actively discourage you from opening up the PSU. It's >held together by tamperproof Torx screws (you know, the ones with the >pins in the middle), and the Hardware Maintenance and Service manual >tells you to replace the PSU if these screws have been modified or >replaced with normal ones (i.e. if somebody has been inside the PSU). I always wonder how they can call it tamper-proof when you can go down to the local hardware/car parts store and buy a set of them for maybe $5-10... And if you want some other stuff, local specialty stores or mail-order like Techni-Tool can get you just about anything you need... So much for tamper-proof. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From rax at warbaby.com Thu Apr 30 17:07:13 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: Hi All - Just joined the list - looks like a great resource for information. I've been collecting vintage micros for a couple of years now and only recently discovered there were other fools with the same bad habit. Currently I've got about 50 assorted Commodores, half-dozen Apple ]['s, two Kaypros, an Osborne Executive, a TRS-80, a couple of TI-99's, a bunch of Atari, Coleco and other game machines, and the rest of the garage is filled with boxes of tape drives, modems, printers and other peripheral stuff. I'm always interested in trading, so if there's something you need, let me know. I'll go back to lurking now. R. BTW - I've been compiling a chronological list of every computer ever made for a book that I'm working on - big stuff as well as micros. It's a pretty big file, but I'll post it (as a MS Word attachment?) if anyone is interested. -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From cfandt at servtech.com Thu Apr 30 16:10:05 1998 From: cfandt at servtech.com (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: <199804301434.JAA25789@onyx.southwind.net> References: <199804301306.JAA15564@cyber2.servtech.com> <9803298938.AA893896295@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199804302115.RAA24412@cyber2.servtech.com> At 08:56 30-04-98 -0600, "Jeff Kaneko" wrote: > >> At 17:30 29-04-98 +0000, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: >> >Doug: >> > >> >> Is the reason those old radio/phonograph boxes are not being thrown >> >> away is that noone notice the cover and thinks it's just a pretty --- snippers --- >> There were folks who took a late-20's/early 30's radio which was built into >> a beautiful wooden cabinet and turned it into a piece of furniture by >> gutting it. Then there were the late 40's and early 50's TV cabinets which >> met the same fate. At least I've rescued several of each of these kinds of >> receivers for my collection. > >Then there was this girl I was dating while I lived in Baltimore in >the early 80's. Her dad had a vintage (early 20th cent.)'magneto' >(u-crank-it) telephone he mounted on the wall in their basement as a >conversation piece. He felt it was 'too heavy' so before mounting >it he gutted the thing. So many historic relics have been destroyed >in the name of 'interior decoration'. Some people have no clue. But in retrospect to that statement, those people are probably not technically oriented like we are so there is no awareness of anything's actual worth as a technological collectable. Thankfully, the metal/plastic boxes our old computers were made with have virtually no value as 'interior decorations' (yet). However, there could be exceptions for maybe a couple of models. I recall some list members here had commented upon some as being rather attractive in appearance. I haven't come across those yet. From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 30 16:52:39 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: <199804302115.RAA24412@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Christian Fandt wrote: > Thankfully, the metal/plastic boxes our old computers were made with have > virtually no value as 'interior decorations' (yet). However, there could be > exceptions for maybe a couple of models. I recall some list members here > had commented upon some as being rather attractive in appearance. I haven't > come across those yet. Hmm, a list of computers that look good enough to display as art? Here's mine (most are laptops): IMSAI 8080 GRiD Compass Ampere WS1 MINDSET PC (good enough for MOMA, anyway) NeXT Cube eMate 300 -- Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 16:44:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... In-Reply-To: from "John Rollins" at Apr 30, 98 01:21:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1290 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980430/41582c00/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 16:50:00 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: from "Rax" at Apr 30, 98 02:07:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1284 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980430/49988a97/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 30 17:30:38 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > BTW - I've been compiling a chronological list of every computer ever made > > I seem to recall there's a list of all computers ever made (or at least, > the ones that people have mentioned...) on the web somewhere. In fact I > submitted some machine names for it. You might like to look at that > before you spend much longer on this, and submit any machines you've > found that are missing to that list. That would probably be Hans Pufal's list: http://columbia.digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc/cclist.htm It would be tough (but valuable) to provide a truly comprehensive list. Heck, I'd like to see a good computer taxonomy (you know, kingdom=digital, phylum=silicon, class=portable, order=laptop, family=grid, genus=1500-series, species=1535-EXP). -- Doug From rhblake at bbtel.com Thu Apr 30 17:32:38 1998 From: rhblake at bbtel.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... References: Message-ID: <3548FC06.D9CDF583@bbtel.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > >The IBM manuals actively discourage you from opening up the PSU. It's > > >held together by tamperproof Torx screws (you know, the ones with the > > >pins in the middle), and the Hardware Maintenance and Service manual > > >tells you to replace the PSU if these screws have been modified or > > >replaced with normal ones (i.e. if somebody has been inside the PSU). > > I always wonder how they can call it tamper-proof when you can go down to > > the local hardware/car parts store and buy a set of them for maybe $5-10... > > Err... Because the average field-servoid armed only with a flatblade > can't shift them :-). Of course more clueful people have a couple of > hundred different screwdrivers (as I've said before, Phillips != Pozidriv > != JIS and Allen hex != Torx != Bristol Spline). I've gone as far as epoxying a screw upside down onto the odd "security" screws way back when they started coming out and used a pliers/visegrips to turn the rest of the screw and then either replace them with stock screws or clean the epoxy off after reinserting them (if it was necessary to keep someone from knowing that I was in there). Of course as many have pointed out virtually every type bit is available in kits or separate pieces.Oh indeed.... But the sort of people who go to those shops are clueful enough > not to put a nail in the fuseholder, or put unsafe components in the > chopper circuit, or whatever. Uh, penny under the blown screw in fuse, cigarette pack foil around the blown AGC fuse. Let's do this right now. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Russ Blakeman RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144 Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991 Email: rhblake@bbtel.com or rhblake@bigfoot.com Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/ ICQ UIN #1714857 AOL Instant Messenger "RHBLAKEMAN" * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers* -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 30 17:33:00 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Production figures? In-Reply-To: <19980430181810.16973.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Bob Wood wrote: > Does anyone know the production figures for > either the Altair 8800, the Imsai 8080 or > the Processor Tech SOL 20? If actual numbers > are not available I would really appreciate > getting an educated guess. Don't know about the Altair 8800 or the IMSAI 8080 but there were about 10,000 SOL-20's made. About 5,000 were shipped in kit form and the rest were shipped pre-assembled. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From dastar at wco.com Thu Apr 30 17:38:10 1998 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > Thankfully, the metal/plastic boxes our old computers were made with have > > virtually no value as 'interior decorations' (yet). However, there could be > > exceptions for maybe a couple of models. I recall some list members here > > had commented upon some as being rather attractive in appearance. I haven't > > come across those yet. > > Hmm, a list of computers that look good enough to display as art? Here's > mine (most are laptops): > > IMSAI 8080 > GRiD Compass > Ampere WS1 > MINDSET PC (good enough for MOMA, anyway) > NeXT Cube > eMate 300 Of course you guys have heard of converting a Mac into a fish tnak? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 04/25/98] From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Apr 30 18:01:28 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) Message-ID: <19980430230128.17890.qmail@hotmail.com> Well, I recall from The Secret Guide To Computers that early Timex Sinclairs were used as doorstops at Timex (or whatever). Some sick minded person might gut a NeXT cube and use it as a little stool for flowers at an exhibit of abstract art ;) > >At 08:56 30-04-98 -0600, "Jeff Kaneko" wrote: >> >>> At 17:30 29-04-98 +0000, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: >>> >Doug: >>> > >>> >> Is the reason those old radio/phonograph boxes are not being thrown >>> >> away is that noone notice the cover and thinks it's just a pretty > --- snippers --- > >>> There were folks who took a late-20's/early 30's radio which was built into >>> a beautiful wooden cabinet and turned it into a piece of furniture by >>> gutting it. Then there were the late 40's and early 50's TV cabinets which >>> met the same fate. At least I've rescued several of each of these kinds of >>> receivers for my collection. >> >>Then there was this girl I was dating while I lived in Baltimore in >>the early 80's. Her dad had a vintage (early 20th cent.)'magneto' >>(u-crank-it) telephone he mounted on the wall in their basement as a >>conversation piece. He felt it was 'too heavy' so before mounting >>it he gutted the thing. So many historic relics have been destroyed >>in the name of 'interior decoration'. > >Some people have no clue. But in retrospect to that statement, those people >are probably not technically oriented like we are so there is no awareness >of anything's actual worth as a technological collectable. > >Thankfully, the metal/plastic boxes our old computers were made with have >virtually no value as 'interior decorations' (yet). However, there could be >exceptions for maybe a couple of models. I recall some list members here >had commented upon some as being rather attractive in appearance. I haven't >come across those yet. > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Apr 30 18:09:38 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) Message-ID: <19980430230938.3773.qmail@hotmail.com> I posted this a few weeks back, but noone answered, so I'll ask it again. There is a certain Macintosh 5400/180 at my school whose hard drive crashed about a month and a half ago. When it tried to start, it wouldn't really seek, just made a ticking noise and the LED would flash. So, we took it out, ordered another one. A few days later, it died the same death. So now we have another one. My ethics don't allow me to just put in a hard drive knowing it will be destroyed. What should I do? One hint is that the Macintosh is in a soundproof booth, and is powered from the booth, which is plugged in. But, the mac is plugged in via a "surge protector". Ideas? Could it be bad power? Any way to check? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From peacock at simconv.com Thu Apr 30 18:22:03 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8AF@mail.simconv.com> >Some sick minded person might gut a NeXT cube and use it as >a little stool for flowers at an exhibit of abstract art ;) > In the early S-100 days (1975) the engineering lab I worked in got an early Altair (we needed small cheap computers to embed in environmental monitoring instruments). A few months later we got one of the first IMSAIs. After about 3 minutes of comparing the two, we voted to use IMSAIs and the Altair was relegated to being the doorstop for the lab doors. I assume it wound up in a surplus action some number of years after I left. BTW, the embedded controller we actually used in the instruments was a single board Intel 8080, their evaluation kit board, the precursor to Multibus. We used the IMSAIs to develop and test the code in the lab. Jack Peacock From william at ans.net Thu Apr 30 18:18:06 1998 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Oh, the UK valve numbers are a lot more logical that the US ones (ducks > flames). OK, you asked for it... Why did the Post Office and Air Ministry hand out _identical_ type numbers to _completely_ different tubes? Hmmmm????!?!! If I dig back in the Boatanchors archives, I can find some examples. I think the VT90 is one of them. At least when we pulled that stunt, we gave the tubes prefixes (UV-203A or WE-203A). William Donzelli william@ans.net From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Apr 30 17:30:59 1998 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: <199804302115.RAA24412@cyber2.servtech.com> References: <199804301434.JAA25789@onyx.southwind.net> Message-ID: <199804302311.SAA07353@onyx.southwind.net> > > > >Then there was this girl I was dating while I lived in Baltimore in > >the early 80's. Her dad had a vintage (early 20th cent.)'magneto' > >(u-crank-it) telephone he mounted on the wall in their basement as a > >conversation piece. He felt it was 'too heavy' so before mounting > >it he gutted the thing. So many historic relics have been destroyed > >in the name of 'interior decoration'. > > Some people have no clue. But in retrospect to that statement, those people > are probably not technically oriented like we are so there is no awareness > of anything's actual worth as a technological collectable. > > Thankfully, the metal/plastic boxes our old computers were made with have > virtually no value as 'interior decorations' (yet). However, there could be > exceptions for maybe a couple of models. I recall some list members here > had commented upon some as being rather attractive in appearance. I haven't > come across those yet. > Oh, I think a NextSlab would make a peachy pedestal for a table lamp! (minus the monitor and keyboard of course) :^)) From peacock at simconv.com Thu Apr 30 18:36:18 1998 From: peacock at simconv.com (Jack Peacock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Computer Taxonomy Message-ID: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8B0@mail.simconv.com> > It would be tough (but valuable) to provide a truly comprehensive list. kingdom = {analogue, digital, quantum} Phylum = {silicon, GaAs, Germanium (?), hollow-state, mechanical} Class = {Mainframe, Mini, Workstation, Micro} Order = {Rackmount, deskside, desktop, luggable, laptop, notebook, palmtop} You are leaving out whole categories of computers. Where do VCR and microwave oven controllers fit in? How do you fit in user programmable and non-user programmable? What about digital storage scopes, logic analyzers? What about lawn sprinkler timers, aren't they "programmable"? Jack Peacock From rax at warbaby.com Thu Apr 30 19:53:57 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Doug wrote: >That would probably be Hans Pufal's list: > > http://columbia.digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc/cclist.htm > Dang! That certainly puts my list of 400 or so to shame. Wish I'd known about it a couple of months ago. Alas... Actually, it's way too much info for the list I've been compiling - I'm only trying to list the major computers that should be familiar to any self-respecting geek. Hans' list goes into the stratosphere of geekdom. As soon as I get time, I'll throw my list up on my Web site so y'all can take a look anyway. I'll let you know when it's up. R -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From rax at warbaby.com Thu Apr 30 19:57:14 1998 From: rax at warbaby.com (Rax) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: from "Rax" at Apr 30, 98 02:07:13 pm Message-ID: Tony wrote: (snip) > >Please don't post anything other than plain ASCII text here (we've just >got over one flame war based on that, and I don't want to sit through >another one). Not everybody here uses a PC, and not everybody who has a >PC runs Microsoft programs on it. Some of us pay for download time... Thanks for the tip. Let me know if there are any other no-no's or flame bait. R. -- Robert Arnold Managing Editor The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Creator and Eminence Grise Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. muahahahahaaaaa http://www.warbaby.com Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. From yowza at yowza.com Thu Apr 30 19:00:26 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Of course you guys have heard of converting a Mac into a fish tnak? Yes, and I've heard about the IMSAI sculpture as well (sniff). I have to admit, I plan to take a few fully functional pen-based slates with wireless transcievers, stick them on the wall, and broadcast random art to them from my Linux-based art server. I could also turn them into virtual dart boards. The potential of pen-based computing is limitless :-) -- Doug From maxeskin at hotmail.com Thu Apr 30 20:22:09 1998 From: maxeskin at hotmail.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) Message-ID: <19980501012209.21799.qmail@hotmail.com> The speakers MIGHT be the problem. There is a pair of them, each twice the size of an IMSAI, right beneath the macintosh > >> >> I posted this a few weeks back, but noone answered, so I'll ask it >> again. > >Oh, what the heck, I'll make a few guesses... > >> There is a certain Macintosh 5400/180 at my school whose hard drive >> crashed about a month and a half ago. When it tried to start, it >> wouldn't really seek, just made a ticking noise and the LED would > >Is the disk spinning at this point? (feel the drive itself). Is it just >that the positioner is not geting the heads where they should be? > >> flash. So, we took it out, ordered another one. A few days later, >> it died the same death. So now we have another one. My ethics don't >> allow me to just put in a hard drive knowing it will be destroyed. >> What should I do? One hint is that the Macintosh is in a soundproof >> booth, and is powered from the booth, which is plugged in. But, the >> mac is plugged in via a "surge protector". >> Ideas? Could it be bad power? Any way to check? > >It _could_ be a PSU problem, but IMHO it's unlikely, unless other parts >of the mac are failing as well. If the disk is spinning and the rest of >the mac is OK, I'd not suspect power problems at this time. > >Are there any strong magnetic fields (say _large_ speakers) very close to >it? I'm wondering if the servo information on the disks is being >corrupted so the positioner can't lock onto a track. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu Apr 30 18:17:20 1998 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) In-Reply-To: References: <19980501012209.21799.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <01IWHXERC9OK99DOF7@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> > Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 02:30:49 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Tony Duell > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) > > > > > > > > > > The speakers MIGHT be the problem. There is a pair of them, each > > twice the size of an IMSAI, right beneath the macintosh > > I see... Now, while a lot of older drives locked the pack to the spindle > using a fairly powerful magnet (and 3.5" floppy drives still do), I'd > still not want to run a hard disk near speakers of that size. Can you > rearange the layout of the room a little? > > -tony > Guys! I know of several deaf and impaired hearing people who likes music at full blast thru regular quality 60W with subwoofer and their hard drives cared nothing a whit about vibration level. I think something is funny: (Thobbing of music...boom boom bop...) 1. Did someone disconnect/connect scsi stuff often? 2. Did something bang the table where Mac sits often? 3. Specific brands is no better than some and why didn't Max give us what kind of both toasted hds was? 4. Termination issues sometimes cooks the hd especially selection of termination power used. 5. Sharp resonanent sounds sometimes can make the pc chassis resosate thus killing hd life early. That does means to some machines with plastic chassis and some that will resnsonate, shaking the hd long and often. Push and pull on that hard drive bay to see how much it can shift or "pluck" it to see if it does vibrate. Magnetic field have nearly no effect on hd's inside that steel boxes unless Apple used plastic shell with thin tin sheets which that requires you to remove either speakers or the pc to different location at least 6" to 3 feet away. Magnetic field strength falls away at logithmic rate with increaseing distrance from the source. Jaosn D. > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 30 22:18:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) Message-ID: <199805010318.AA11051@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rax wrote: > Hi All - > > Just joined the list - looks like a great resource for information. I've > been collecting vintage micros for a couple of years now and only recently > discovered there were other fools with the same bad habit. Currently I've > got about 50 assorted Commodores, half-dozen Apple ]['s, two Kaypros, an > Osborne Executive, a TRS-80, a couple of TI-99's, a bunch of Atari, Coleco > and other game machines, and the rest of the garage is filled with boxes of > tape drives, modems, printers and other peripheral stuff. I'm always > interested in trading, so if there's something you need, let me know. > > I'll go back to lurking now. > > R. > > BTW - I've been compiling a chronological list of every computer ever made > for a book that I'm working on - big stuff as well as micros. It's a pretty > big file, but I'll post it (as a MS Word attachment?) if anyone is > interested. Preferably, post it as an ASCII test attachment, or better, advise where it can be downloaded. - don > -- > > Robert Arnold > Managing Editor > The MonkeyPool > WebSite Content Development > http://www.monkeypool.com > > Creator and Eminence Grise > Warbaby: The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. > muahahahahaaaaa > http://www.warbaby.com > > > > Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies. > > > > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Apr 30 22:55:55 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <006e01bd74b5$0ef546e0$49020bce@fauradon> Off Topic posts are the worst, second comes discussions about computers less than ten years old (which eventually fall in the off topic category) Try to locate the List FAQ to find out more (it doesn't list the flame war starters but if you can stick to the guidelines you'll be OK). Then again I'm not in charge of this list either. As a general rule this is a list for the discussion of more than ten year old computer equipment. Use plain text to send messages. Be nice and have fun. >Thanks for the tip. Let me know if there are any other no-no's or flame bait. > Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 30 22:36:58 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > > > Thankfully, the metal/plastic boxes our old computers were made with have > > > virtually no value as 'interior decorations' (yet). However, there could be > > > exceptions for maybe a couple of models. I recall some list members here > > > had commented upon some as being rather attractive in appearance. I haven't > > > come across those yet. > > > > Hmm, a list of computers that look good enough to display as art? Here's > > mine (most are laptops): > > > > IMSAI 8080 > > GRiD Compass > > Ampere WS1 > > MINDSET PC (good enough for MOMA, anyway) > > NeXT Cube > > eMate 300 > > Of course you guys have heard of converting a Mac into a fish tnak? I don't have a problem with that as long as they are small fish! Reminds me of a friend who has stacked up Kaypros to use as end tables to a small sofa. - don > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Don't blame me...I voted for Satan. > > Coming in September...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > [Last web page update: 04/25/98] > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Weg site at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 30 22:42:51 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) References: Message-ID: <354944BB.B574373C@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hmm, a list of computers that look good enough to display as art? Here's > > > mine (most are laptops): > > > > > > IMSAI 8080 > > > GRiD Compass > > > Ampere WS1 > > > MINDSET PC (good enough for MOMA, anyway) > > > NeXT Cube > > > eMate 300 > > > > Of course you guys have heard of converting a Mac into a fish tnak? > > Who else remembers those adverts in Byte for some kind of terminal > emulation software which showed what to do with your 'obsolete' VT100 > after you used said software? I recall a fishtank, gerbil/hamster/mouse > cage, dolls house, and I think there were more. Actually, I think it was a series of cartoons in Kilobaud(or maybe even 80-Micro). > > Actually, the VT100 does have a rather nice look to it. If you insist > that only computers go on the above list, I'll list it as a VT103. > > Also, although I've only seen pictures of it (I would like one...) the > AT&T 3B1 is IMHO quite a nice looking machine. The 3B1 is a bit lumpy, due to the squarish hump in the case to fit the full-height hard disk. The 7300 was the beauty -- especially if you can find the late-model keyboard. While I have to use my PC keyboard as the X input to my main Linux box, the 7300 (well, one of them) is the true console in VT-100 emulation with all system messages recorded to disk instead of going where forgotten electrons go. A trick I developed at the San Jose Unisys plant when I was doing SQA for the U-6000 servers in the building where the 7300/3B1 were designed, though I didn't go to work there until almost four years after the darling was discoed. But there were quite a few laying around -- I had three in my cube. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 30 22:53:18 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Introduction References: Message-ID: <3549472E.635A86F4@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > [Complete list of all computers] > > > That would probably be Hans Pufal's list: > > > > http://columbia.digiweb.com/~hansp/ccc/cclist.htm > > Yes, that's the one. > > > > > It would be tough (but valuable) to provide a truly comprehensive list. > > Agreed. Which is why I suggested that we all submit 'missing' machines to > the same list. Better to have one list that's almost complete than a > number of partial ones. > > > Heck, I'd like to see a good computer taxonomy (you know, kingdom=digital, > > phylum=silicon, class=portable, order=laptop, family=grid, > > genus=1500-series, species=1535-EXP). > > On the grounds that all laptops are portables, I think I'd rather see > something like > > kingdom = {analogue, digital, quantum} > Phylum = {silicon, GaAs, Germanium (?), hollow-state, mechanical} > Class = {Mainframe, Mini, Workstation, Micro} > Order = {Rackmount, deskside, desktop, luggable, laptop, notebook, palmtop} > > (I know of at least one luggable mini, and I think a Sparcbook could > reasonably be called a laptop workstation) Trouble is that there are so many cross-breeds that can't fit into any analogue of biological evolution/taxonomy/creation. The platypus is a _simple_ creature compared to some of the machines I've seen. -- Ward Griffiths They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Apr 30 23:02:23 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... In-Reply-To: References: from "John Rollins" at Apr 30, 98 01:21:22 pm Message-ID: >For the record I've had all my IBM PSUs apart. Even the one in the 5154 >monitor which is rivetted together - mine is now held by self-tapping screws. Speaking of IBM power supplies, I just tore into my Series/1's large tape drive(wasn't in working condition after that fall down the stairs anyways...). To my suprise, there was a commercial(and not IBM branded) 5vdc, 11A power brick on the back! Just think of the possibilities... ;-) And of course the normal huge IBM supply inside with all those huge filter capacitors and huge terminal blocks and lots of wires... Getting those motors out, however, is a very interesting adventure. :-) -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | Orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | -------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 29 18:17:46 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Apr 30, 98 05:30:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1044 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980501/6df16cff/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 29 18:31:57 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) In-Reply-To: <19980430230938.3773.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Apr 30, 98 04:09:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1329 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980501/206563fa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 29 18:23:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... In-Reply-To: <3548FC06.D9CDF583@bbtel.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Apr 30, 98 05:32:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1056 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980501/a76743d5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 29 18:27:32 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Lost Treasures (was: Cray-1) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 30, 98 03:38:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 923 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980501/fb79fc0e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 19:29:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 30, 98 07:18:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1991 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980501/ae1bb393/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 19:33:41 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Computer Taxonomy In-Reply-To: <41F0302DCC1BD011AF6100AA00B845A811E8B0@mail.simconv.com> from "Jack Peacock" at Apr 30, 98 04:36:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 746 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980501/f2783813/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 30 20:30:49 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Suicidal HDD (OT mystery) In-Reply-To: <19980501012209.21799.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Max Eskin" at Apr 30, 98 06:22:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 406 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980501/7dc4fcc7/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 30 21:01:50 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:36 2005 Subject: Tony Cole's Cray-1 In-Reply-To: Christian Fandt "Re: Re[2]: Tony Cole's Cray-1" (Apr 30, 9:40) References: <9803298938.AA893896295@compsci.powertech.co.uk> <199804301346.JAA16477@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: <9805010301.ZM15431@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Apr 30, 9:40, Christian Fandt wrote: > By the way, a second, more minor problem was my wife. When I was describing > the size of the 9370 system before I brought it home, here eyes got real > big and she stated: "Just where are you going to put that!??!" This sounds familiar :-) > And when I > got two six foot tall 19"rack cabinets from an old machine controller at > work that I tore down, I temporarily set them in the new garage sometime > before we moved in. She spied them, stared at them for a few seconds and > asked "What are _those_ monstrosities?" I had to do some quick explaining Even more familair :-) > Wish I could afford a heated, insulated garage. Just leave one or two running, like I do. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Apr 30 22:36:35 1998 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:33:37 2005 Subject: XT Power Supply help... (More Info) Message-ID: <001901bd74b2$76d7d960$446fbcc1@hotze> OK... by some act of God, when I try to plug in the HDD alone, it spins up, along with the PSU. Now, when I take EVERYTHING out, that includes drives, cards, etc. and just give the motherboard power, it doesn't spin up at all. Yes, the black pins are in the middle, I know I've got a good connection... could this be the "No power" line thingy? Should a real-XT case work with a clone-XT motherboard? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 3:13 AM Subject: Re: XT Power Supply help... >> I've gone as far as epoxying a screw upside down onto the odd "security" screws >> way back when they started coming out and used a pliers/visegrips to turn the > >Or filing a nail to make a tool to fit some of the more obscure screws. > >If it has a head that stands proud of the surface, and if you don't care >about mangling the screw, then use a hacksaw to cut a slot in it. I got a >pile of AT bits at a radio rally, and that's what had been done to the >screws in the PSU. > >> > not to put a nail in the fuseholder, or put unsafe components in the >> > chopper circuit, or whatever. >> >> Uh, penny under the blown screw in fuse, cigarette pack foil around the blown AGC >> fuse. Let's do this right now. > >It's a well-known fact that to the UK public all fuses are 13A (the >standard/maximum one used in our mains plugs). I've seen said fuses in >all sorts of places that they don't belong. > >I've also seen the fuse wrapped in foil - where on earth does that >dangerous trick come from. I can't believe these lusers work it out for >themselves. > >-tony >