From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Sat Nov 1 02:30:36 1997 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Fido lives! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971101003036.00e8d530@mail.wizards.net> At least, it lives as far as I can tell. ;-) If Tom Jennings did indeed 'pull the plug,' I've seen no indication of it whatsoever at my end. If anything, traffic on the echos I carry is higher than normal. To answer an earlier question about hardware; my DOS-based BBS has been running very happily, since 1990, on a 386DX-40 (AMD processor, of course!) and 8 MB RAM. I use RemoteAccess 2.01 for the base BBS package, Portal of Power 0.62 for the front-end mailer, and FastEcho for the mail processor. Scott Samet's XLAXNODE handles my weekly nodelist compilation. The system has been extremely trouble-free, and has been pretty much self-maintaining since 1994. The only things I need to do with it are to pick up my mail every week and check for new users every so often. As long as I continue to see a NODEDIFF each week, and as long as I continue to pay dues to my local group for echo traffic, I will assume that FidoNet still lives. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Nov 1 03:48:09 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Amiga 1000 (was:My Recent find) In-Reply-To: <199710310708.CAA01212@ns.newwave.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Bruce James wrote: > and my latest find a Amiga 1000 with 1080 moniter and 512k memory > anyone have more information on expansion of this computer?? I used an Amiga 1000 as my primary computer for six years. Beautiful machine. The darling of my collection. :) For expandability - it depends on what kind of expansion you mean. There's the 86-pin edge connector on the right hand side of the machine which is almost identical to the one on left side of the Amiga 500, and most devices that will plug into an Amiga 500 will plug into the A1000 facing backward. This sometimes gets things in the way of the joystick or mouse ports, though, and usually requires some kind of physical support under the device. There were a lot of external expansion devices designed specifically for the A1000, but these seem to be fairly hard to find. A friend of mine has a large external hard drive box for the A1000, that allows auto-booting by somehow storing the Kickstart image on the HD. Another friend of mine has a 2-slot Zorro II bus box for the A1000, that allows use of many boards intended for the A2000. I've got an A1060 SideCar, which gives the A1000 PC/XT compatability through hardware, and three 8-bit ISA slots. I use it mostly to control my A1000's hard drive, though, as I couldn't find a cheap SCSI controller for the A1000 when I was looking for one. (I didn't yet know of the compatability with A500 devices.) There were some popular internal memory expansion devices for the A1000, like the Insider memory board that, IIRC, provided up to 1.5MB. Without major modification, the A1000 can be expanded up to 8.5MB. (512K of Chip RAM, 8MB Fast RAM.) There's a problem with noise on the A1000's external expansion bus, which I think pops up if you try to plug more than one or two devices into the bus. I forget what the fix is. Grounding the daughterboard and changing some PALs? I never ran into the problem so I never really looked at the solution. :) The two major limitations of the A1000 are its 256K WCS board that can only accept Kickstart versions up to 1.3, and the old Agnus that can't be replaced with a more modern version. Kickstart ROMs can be installed with a board from DKB called KwikStart II (or similar) which still allows disk-based Kickstarts to be loaded. ROMs can also be soldered to the motherboard beneath the floppy drive, but I wouldn't recommend it. One of the coolest things about the A1000 is the disk-based Kickstarts, IMHO. :) The chipset limitation is more serious and more expensive to overcome. There was at least one board, The Rejuvinator, that allowed installation of the Enhanced Chip Set (ECS) and I think the Kickstart ROMs at the same time. There was also a replacement motherboard, called the Phoenix Board, that allowed the 2MB Agnus to be installed, as well as Kickstart ROMs, 8MB Fast RAM, and math coprocessor. It also sported a SCSI port, real-time clock, and a few more minor goodies, but I'm not sure if it's still really an Amiga 1000 if you replace the motherboard. :) You should also be aware that the serial and parallel ports on the back of the A1000 are non-standard. I *think* a gender-changer is enough to use the serial port safely, but I'm not sure (I used to use standard cabling and a null modem for transferring files between my A1200 and A1000 with no problems, and I've used the A1000's serial cable for telecommunications with my TeleVideo TPC-I). The parallel port, though, requires some modification to the cabling for safe use. It supplies power on pin 23, and pin 25 is a reset line. There were 68020 accelerators made specifically for the A1000. I think there were also some 68030 accelerators. These theoretically should allow RAM expansion far beyond the 8MB limit of the stock A1000, but I don't know if any did allow more than that. None of those boards would use SIMMs, and back then 2-4MB seemed to be adequate for most "power users". Anyway, if you need more specific information on anything, I can pull out my old manuals and magazines and see what I can dig up. Hopefully I haven't made any errors above. :) > Bruce James > ejames@newwave.net Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Nov 1 04:03:56 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2 vs. Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971024095230.48bfa6bc@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 06:41 AM 10/23/97 -0400, you wrote: > >disks. Possibly the drives just need cleaning, though. I just wish I had > >a cleaning kit for 5.25" drives (ugh!). I think it's already been > >mentioned where those are available. > > I picked up a kit with both a 5.25 & 3.5 cleaning disk at CompUSA for like $2. Cool. But I don't feel like going through customs JUST for that. :) I'll just have to check out some of the more normal computer shops, seeing as these kits seem to still be current (I just assumed that as the drives are unavailable, and the disks pretty hard to find, that the cleaning kits were long gone). Thanks for the tip. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Nov 1 08:30:51 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Fido lives! Message-ID: <19971101143809.AAC28512@hotze> Good to hear that. If I do get a computer, it will have an AMD processor. If memory serves, Intel cut off the 386 at 20 mhz. Do you know where I can get any of this software? Also, I need to know how to rig it up so that I can get nultiple connections over one phone line (my computer has one dedicated line already), also, if I can use one modem (say a 33,600) to divide up to several 4800 connections. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: Bruce Lane To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Fido lives! Date: Saturday, November 01, 1997 11:30 AM At least, it lives as far as I can tell. ;-) If Tom Jennings did indeed 'pull the plug,' I've seen no indication of it whatsoever at my end. If anything, traffic on the echos I carry is higher than normal. To answer an earlier question about hardware; my DOS-based BBS has been running very happily, since 1990, on a 386DX-40 (AMD processor, of course!) and 8 MB RAM. I use RemoteAccess 2.01 for the base BBS package, Portal of Power 0.62 for the front-end mailer, and FastEcho for the mail processor. Scott Samet's XLAXNODE handles my weekly nodelist compilation. The system has been extremely trouble-free, and has been pretty much self-maintaining since 1994. The only things I need to do with it are to pick up my mail every week and check for new users every so often. As long as I continue to see a NODEDIFF each week, and as long as I continue to pay dues to my local group for echo traffic, I will assume that FidoNet still lives. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 1 10:00:23 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Fido lives! Message-ID: <199711011600.AA15350@world.std.com> From: "Hotze" Okay, I'll get you the motherboard ASAP, and computers DON'T make mistakes; programmers do. >Glad to take it! I'll ship the 486/33 processor to you, but if it is alright, can I have a slightly higher discount on shiping on which ever computer I end up taking? I don't know how much the 486/66 processor w/board w/16 MB RAM is worth, you could tell me, and then whatever you think the 486/33 is worth. But remember, the 33 is a SX, so it has no math processor. The 66 is a DX2. >The VIC-20 was Commodore's first computer...2K of RAM (I think), did sounds >and color TV screen stuff. >Commodore 64 >Apple II C (I think). Well, I'm not sure which I'll take, but I don't really need the Apple II C, maybe the Commodore 64, or the VIC 20. I have a TV screen, I even have one in the guest >bedroom that's used once in a blue moon. Didn't the older Apples up to the >IIGS have attached monitors? >>The Post Office tells me that 44 lbs will cost $89 US to send to you. If >you >>have a TV screen, you can save on the cost of shipping a monitor for an >>Apple/Commodore/anything else. (The IBM will work a TV screen with the >right >>card, but colors are funny). How much does the Commodore 64 or the VIC-20 weigh? (That might make a difference in what I chose.), but it'll probably be the VIC 20. I have a friend who might buy the C64 from you. In your next e-mail, tell me how much you would sell the C64 for, so I can tell him. Thanks again, Tim D. Hotze From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Sat Nov 1 11:43:58 1997 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <199711011743.MAA23689@golden.net> How many computer collectors does it take to change a light bulb? Forty. One to change the light bulb and thirty-nine to chat about how good the old one was. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf Remember, mainframes used to be really big. +1.519.744.2900 (EST/EDT GMT-5) From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 1 12:53:25 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2 vs. Kaypro II References: Message-ID: <345B7AA5.4B4E4594@cnct.com> Doug Spence wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > At 06:41 AM 10/23/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >disks. Possibly the drives just need cleaning, though. I just wish I had > > >a cleaning kit for 5.25" drives (ugh!). I think it's already been > > >mentioned where those are available. > > > > I picked up a kit with both a 5.25 & 3.5 cleaning disk at CompUSA for like $2. > > Cool. But I don't feel like going through customs JUST for that. :) I'll > just have to check out some of the more normal computer shops, seeing as > these kits seem to still be current (I just assumed that as the drives > are unavailable, and the disks pretty hard to find, that the cleaning kits > were long gone). They're in the current Radio Shack catalog, so I have little doubt that you can find them at Tandy outlets in the Great White North. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 1 13:08:39 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: MSCP bootstrap Message-ID: I need the MSCP bootstrap which can be loaded directly into RAM. (The one on sunsite needs RT11) Anyone got one? From Zeus334 at aol.com Sat Nov 1 15:51:27 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: System/74 Message-ID: <971101165126_715739057@mrin46.mail.aol.com> Does anyone have any info on the IBM System/74? I can't really get much access to it because it's gathering dust in a supply room. Also, I have a bunch of data tapes for reel to reel recorders. They are labelled: ADES v.4.0 1600bpi Bad Tape Nova Eclipse ADES 3.0 1600 bpi (labelled bad) 1/4 micro linewidth control patterns, Bell Labs; RDOS dumps of 1/4 micro patterns Tape 0008 Pattern file 2 (A) Tape 0009 Pattern file 3 3/14/91 Tape 0010 Pattern file 4(C-I) Tape 0012 Pattern file 6(L-R) ADES TAPE Advanced Diagnostic Executive System 800 bpi Rev.3.0 7/16/86 5130 Cuchiving Disk (a large list of nonsense follows) 4/1/86 800 bpi DAYDUMP A (I) DAYDUMP A (II) FORTH.FL C-NOVA CONTROLLER Rev. F Any idea what this stuff is, and for what machine(s)? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 1 19:06:41 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: IRC server, probably just for old computers... Message-ID: I just put up an ircd, and chances are it's going to be unused, so make a #classiccmp channel or something on it. bsdserver.tek-star.net 6667 I'll probably be on as ds80 Just something to keep it from going idle. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Nov 1 19:20:56 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: System/74 In-Reply-To: <971101165126_715739057@mrin46.mail.aol.com> from "Zeus334@aol.com" at Nov 1, 97 04:51:27 pm Message-ID: <9711020120.AA06991@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 450 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971101/4b3ee721/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Nov 1 19:25:19 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: MSCP bootstrap In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 1, 97 01:08:39 pm Message-ID: <9711020125.AA16838@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971101/3dc795d7/attachment.ksh From engine at chac.org Sat Nov 1 19:43:46 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Fido lives! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971101174339.00f5da30@pop.batnet.com> At 17:30 11/1/97 +0300, you wrote: >Good to hear that. If I do get a computer, it will have an AMD processor. >If memory serves, Intel cut off the 386 at 20 mhz. Nah. Intel 16, 20, 25, 33, and AMD 40. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sat Nov 1 15:05:21 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Fido lives! In-Reply-To: <199711011600.AA15350@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711020200.VAA05777@mail.cgocable.net> Allison wrote: Note, Sorry for so wordy.. No idea where to be tense fearing leaving too much info out. augh! > From: "Hotze" > > > At a bare minimum intel went to 33mhz, I know as I have both the DX and > SX versions. Yes, it is true that Intel officically says so to protect that now famed low end part of 486 from being passed on in those oh old days...sensiable Intel indeed. But little known CPU set (yup it's a set!) is RapidCad and it's from Intel officially rated 33mhz but works well at 40mhz. What so, I have this set as well and what I know is pays to put the heatsink on that RapidCad 1 chip and leave the smaller one called RapidCad 2 bare. Large snip! Troll (this is my nickname of Jason D.) PS when I had problems I had to call to have RapidCad set replaced, their tech support gave me a BIG runround before they get me to correct dept to process properly. Not very easy and not fun especially when one is deaf like I am. The automated system speaks fast, relay operators that I work with could'nt keep up and get stuffed into "musical holds for live personnels" YUK! As a techie guy, I seen this often when calling for components ordering or assistance. But Web is very good "USUALLY"! And I still Kick Compaq for not releasing their much needed info I need even I offered to sign nda form! Any suggestions byond this? Info I need for those compaq SLT 386s/20 memory board module pinout and couple of resistors (smoked and no twin unit to refer to) in that SLT model no 2687 PS brick. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sat Nov 1 15:12:34 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Fido lives! In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971101174339.00f5da30@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <199711020208.VAA06677@mail.cgocable.net> > At 17:30 11/1/97 +0300, you wrote: > >Good to hear that. If I do get a computer, it will have an AMD processor. > >If memory serves, Intel cut off the 386 at 20 mhz. > > Nah. Intel 16, 20, 25, 33, and AMD 40. Even Intel put out early '386 at 12mhz. Amd did make 25, and 33 as well. There's the oddball forms taken from 386sx standards like SLC, SLC2 and SLC3 from IBM and Cyrix. And call them 486 in some forms. Yuk, LIE, liars! See that is where Intel can not use that multipler of 3 printed on 486dx4 chips but the AMD 5x86 is true 4x multipler and unofficially rated at 160-166 mhz. Whoaaa. Troll (Jason D.) > __________________________________________ > Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html > Computer History Association of California > > > > From transit at primenet.com Sat Nov 1 20:42:05 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 Message-ID: Hi folks. I picked up a Tandy Model 100 laptop computer from a local thrift store a few days ago, for about $9. So far so good, but it doesn't have any ROM's in it (both sockets on the bottom of the machine are empty) When I switch it on, then off , the "Low Battery" light flickers, but that's all (the LCD stays blank) So, are these ROMS (which I think I need) something I can still order from Tandy (without paying an arm and a leg)? Thanks in advance (Oh, and I saw, but didn't buy, an Amiga Joyboard . . .) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Sat Nov 1 21:35:14 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 References: Message-ID: <345BF4F1.93322F19@rain.org> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > Hi folks. I picked up a Tandy Model 100 laptop computer from a local > thrift store a few days ago, for about $9. So far so good, but it doesn't > have any ROM's in it (both sockets on the bottom of the machine are empty) > > When I switch it on, then off , the "Low Battery" light flickers, but > that's all (the LCD stays blank) > > So, are these ROMS (which I think I need) something I can still order from > > Tandy (without paying an arm and a leg)? The two sockets on the bottom of the machine can be empty and the machine should still work. One of the sockets is for additional program ROMs while the second 40 pin (I think) socket is used to connect to peripherals. I have one model 100 that has no display when I turn it on, but after waiting a few minutes, the display begins to show. I am assuming you have tried both types of reset: 1) the reset button on the back, and 2) holding shift/pause while turning the machine on. Does the display show anything when the contrast knob is turned? In any case, no display is not a good sign! From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 1 21:44:10 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: 8-bit Atari's Message-ID: I had a good day scrounging the junk stores, first chance I've had in about two months to do any serious looking. Among the things I came up with today were an Atari 400 and a Atari 800. No Power Supply for either though, but then I'm used to that problem. The question is, what on earth does it use for a PS? Can I just break out the old Atari 2600 and use it's PS? On a positive note I finally found a Power Supply for an Apple ][c, yahoo one less power supply needed! Also was finally able to replace the Vic-20 I gave away about 7 years ago, got a bunch of cartridges for various systems, a very nice TI-99/4A, and a Laser 1200. All in all a good day. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Nov 1 21:30:13 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Fido lives! Message-ID: <19971102040341.AAA10133@hotze> Well, that's okay if you needed to be wordy. It looks like the same story again: Intel stopped the Pentium at 200 Mhz, then AMD made a 233 Mhz chip, which benchmaked the same as the Pentium II at the same megahertz. Then this time, Intel went back and made THEIR 233Mhz chip, but it didn't even benchmark as high as the AMD 200 MHz. AMD's soupossed to be making a 266Mhz Socket 7 CPU, so that would combat most Pentium IIs, but not the 300Mhz. Still, 300Mhz benchmarks are only slightly higher than 266 as of the slow speed of componets. Well on the Compaq memory board, I would check with memory suppliers, not Compaq themselves. I'm using a Compaq, and when I go up to tech support, they say that they will have a "processing fee". Compaq ususally uses non-standard memory on their motherboards, for some strange reason. The Presario CDS 633 has a nice motherboard, as everything EVERYTHING is built in. 4 MB RAM, Video card, 2 IDE slots, 1 SCSI slot, parallel port, 2 serial ports, game port, everything except the componets and the sound card. But the memory is non-conventional for 30-pin SIMMS. Compaq claims that they're better, even though they STILL run at 70ns. The only added feature is that there are 16 MB chips avaible for them, not just the 4MB as with most 30-pin RAM. Hope that this helps, Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Fido lives! Date: Sunday, November 02, 1997 12:05 AM Allison wrote: Note, Sorry for so wordy.. No idea where to be tense fearing leaving too much info out. augh! > From: "Hotze" > > SX versions. Yes, it is true that Intel officically says so to protect that now famed low end part of 486 from being passed on in those oh old days...sensiable Intel indeed. But little known CPU set (yup it's a set!) is RapidCad and it's from Intel officially rated 33mhz but works well at 40mhz. What so, I have this set as well and what I know is pays to put the heatsink on that RapidCad 1 chip and leave the smaller one called RapidCad 2 bare. Large snip! Troll (this is my nickname of Jason D.) PS when I had problems I had to call to have RapidCad set replaced, their tech support gave me a BIG runround before they get me to correct dept to process properly. Not very easy and not fun especially when one is deaf like I am. The automated system speaks fast, relay operators that I work with could'nt keep up and get stuffed into "musical holds for live personnels" YUK! As a techie guy, I seen this often when calling for components ordering or assistance. But Web is very good "USUALLY"! And I still Kick Compaq for not releasing their much needed info I need even I offered to sign nda form! Any suggestions byond this? Info I need for those compaq SLT 386s/20 memory board module pinout and couple of resistors (smoked and no twin unit to refer to) in that SLT model no 2687 PS brick. From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Nov 1 21:47:32 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was Message-ID: <19971102040341.AAC10133@hotze> Hello, I've found a sure home to the C64 (if it's in working conidtion), he wants to know how much you want for it (it's my friend who'll take it, I'm definately taking the VIC-20). Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From thedm at sunflower.com Sat Nov 1 22:07:58 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: 8-bit Atari's Message-ID: <199711020406.WAA26039@sunflower.com> The Power supply is 9v just like the 1050 drives, 850 drives and 810 drives. all the exact same powersupply. If you need the amps let me know, it's not much ---------- > From: Zane H. Healy > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: 8-bit Atari's > Date: Saturday, November 01, 1997 9:44 PM > > I had a good day scrounging the junk stores, first chance I've had in about > two months to do any serious looking. Among the things I came up with > today were an Atari 400 and a Atari 800. No Power Supply for either > though, but then I'm used to that problem. The question is, what on earth > does it use for a PS? Can I just break out the old Atari 2600 and use it's > PS? > > On a positive note I finally found a Power Supply for an Apple ][c, yahoo > one less power supply needed! Also was finally able to replace the Vic-20 > I gave away about 7 years ago, got a bunch of cartridges for various > systems, a very nice TI-99/4A, and a Laser 1200. All in all a good day. > > Zane > > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | > | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | > From transit at primenet.com Sat Nov 1 23:44:38 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 In-Reply-To: <345BF4F1.93322F19@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Marvin wrote: > Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > Hi folks. I picked up a Tandy Model 100 laptop computer from a local > > thrift store a few days ago, for about $9. So far so good, but it doesn't > > have any ROM's in it (both sockets on the bottom of the machine are empty) > > The two sockets on the bottom of the machine can be empty and the machine > should still work. One of the sockets is for additional program ROMs while > the second 40 pin (I think) socket is used to connect to peripherals. I > have one model 100 that has no display when I turn it on, but after waiting > a few minutes, the display begins to show. I haven't tried that. How long does that take? > I am assuming you have tried > both types of reset: 1) the reset button on the back, and 2) holding > shift/pause while turning the machine on. I tried the reset button, I didn't know anything about shift/pause. What does that do? > Does the display show anything > when the contrast knob is turned? The contrast knob doesn't do anything . . . From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Nov 2 00:07:53 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2 vs. Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <345B7AA5.4B4E4594@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > They're in the current Radio Shack catalog, so I have little doubt that you > can find them at Tandy outlets in the Great White North. Except that they closed all the Tandy outlets in Sept (or was it Oct) of 1990. (I worked at one at the time.) Of course, we still have Radio Shacks... ttfn srw From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 2 00:51:08 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 References: Message-ID: <345C22DB.8B4467C4@rain.org> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > have one model 100 that has no display when I turn it on, but after > waiting > > a few minutes, the display begins to show. > > I haven't tried that. How long does that take? It takes a couple of minutes in the case of my machine. However, it is still a defective motherboard. > > I am assuming you have tried > > both types of reset: 1) the reset button on the back, and 2) holding > > shift/pause while turning the machine on. > > I tried the reset button, I didn't know anything about shift/pause. What > does that do? Darned if I know :). It is another type of reset for the machine but I haven't taken the time to read the manual to find out what it actually does. > > Does the display show anything > > when the contrast knob is turned? > > The contrast knob doesn't do anything . . . Another thing I did when troubleshooting several of them was to pull out the RAM chips (power off of course) and then power it up again. Turned out one of the machines had a bad RAM chip and that prevented it from booting up. There are four RAM sockets and the first one was always soldered in with the machines I looked at. The rest were socketed. From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 2 01:12:07 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:23 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2 vs. Kaypro II References: Message-ID: <345C27C7.98F7AF0D@cnct.com> Scott Walde wrote: > > On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > They're in the current Radio Shack catalog, so I have little doubt that you > > can find them at Tandy outlets in the Great White North. > > Except that they closed all the Tandy outlets in Sept (or was it Oct) of > 1990. (I worked at one at the time.) Of course, we still have Radio > Shacks... Those are specifically the Tandy outlets I was referring to. The Computer Centers in the US have been closed about that long as well. Nowadays it's depressing to go into a Radio Shack store and see a couple of crappy IBM Aptivas when you remember such ahead-of-their-time systems as the TRS-80 Model 16 and the Tandy 2000. Although I will admit to buying peripherals and software at Tandy's Computer City chain in recent years. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 1 23:00:36 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: 8-bit Atari's In-Reply-To: <199711020406.WAA26039@sunflower.com> Message-ID: >The Power supply is 9v just like the 1050 drives, 850 drives and 810 >drives. all the exact same powersupply. If you need the amps let me know, >it's not much I guess I'd best get the amp rating from you in case I've got to fabricate something. Although it sounds like I'm in business, becuase unless I'm mistaken I've got a 1050 drive in storage, looks like I'll have to make a trip to storage tomorrow :^) Thanks for the info. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 1 22:56:36 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was In-Reply-To: <199711010543.VAA06145@mx2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >> I'm new at collecting classics. What is a VIC-20? > >The VIC-20 was Commodore's first computer...2K of RAM (I think), did sounds >and color TV screen stuff. Actually it's far from thier first. There was several models of the PET, and another earlier one whose name escapes me (KIT?). Unexpanded it has a whopping 3583 bytes. I know for a fact it could be expanded to 16k, and I think there was eventually a larger one than that. The VIC-20 was my only computer from '82-'86 unfortunatly I gave it away in '90, and I finally got one to replace it today! > I have a TV screen, I even have one in the guest >>bedroom that's used once in a blue moon. Didn't the older Apples up to the >>IIGS have attached monitors? > >I don't think so. I'm no Apple expert, though. No, none of the Apple II's or III's had attached monitors. The Lisa's, and the Macintoshes up until the Macintosh II came out did have attached monitors. >>>have a TV screen, you can save on the cost of shipping a monitor for an >>>Apple/Commodore/anything else. (The IBM will work a TV screen with the >>right >>>card, but colors are funny). I believe TV's in Bahrain are PAL instead of NTSC, or maybe I'm thinking of the United Arab Emirates. A monitor might be advisable, but spendy. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Nov 2 07:35:34 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 1, 97 08:56:36 pm Message-ID: <9711021335.AA11693@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971102/5c393327/attachment.ksh From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Nov 2 07:57:43 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was Message-ID: <19971102140505.AAB13614@hotze> ---------- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was Date: Sunday, November 02, 1997 7:56 AM >> I'm new at collecting classics. What is a VIC-20? > >The VIC-20 was Commodore's first computer...2K of RAM (I think), did sounds >and color TV screen stuff. >The VIC-20 was my only >computer from '82-'86 unfortunatly I gave it away in '90, and I finally got >one to replace it today! Congradulations on getting your VIC-20, and I would like to know about it's specs. >I believe TV's in Bahrain are PAL instead of NTSC, or maybe I'm thinking of the United Arab Emirates. Yes, here in Bahrain they are PAL, but I'm an American, born and bred, and I'm only living here for a few years, so it's a multisystem, so it can do NTSC, PAL or any other major standard. They're PAL pretty much everywhere from the UK to China, then in Japan, it goes back to NTSC. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Nov 2 08:31:03 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: VIC-20 (Was: Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> I'm new at collecting classics. What is a VIC-20? > > > >The VIC-20 was Commodore's first computer...2K of RAM (I think), did sounds > >and color TV screen stuff. The VIC-20 had 5.5k of RAM (3583 Bytes Free for BASIC) and could be expanded with three banks of 8k for a whopping 27.5k of BASIC RAM. > Actually it's far from thier first. There was several models of the PET, > and another earlier one whose name escapes me (KIT?). KIM-1 ttfn srw From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Nov 2 09:35:03 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: VIC-20 (Was: Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was) Message-ID: <19971102155209.AAA26411@hotze> Thanks. I need a good BASIC machine. (This new C++ 5.0 suff's really complicated....) Ciao, Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: Scott Walde To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: VIC-20 (Was: Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was) Date: Sunday, November 02, 1997 5:31 PM On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> I'm new at collecting classics. What is a VIC-20? > > > >The VIC-20 was Commodore's first computer...2K of RAM (I think), did sounds > >and color TV screen stuff. The VIC-20 had 5.5k of RAM (3583 Bytes Free for BASIC) and could be expanded with three banks of 8k for a whopping 27.5k of BASIC RAM. > Actually it's far from thier first. There was several models of the PET, > and another earlier one whose name escapes me (KIT?). KIM-1 ttfn srw From jrice at texoma.net Sun Nov 2 11:40:25 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 References: Message-ID: <345CBB08.B0D6F960@texoma.net> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > > > Hi folks. I picked up a Tandy Model 100 laptop computer from a > local > > > thrift store a few days ago, for about $9. So far so good, but it > doesn't > > > have any ROM's in it (both sockets on the bottom of the machine > are empty) > > > > > The two sockets on the bottom of the machine can be empty and the > machine > > should still work. One of the sockets is for additional program > ROMs while > > the second 40 pin (I think) socket is used to connect to > peripherals. I > > have one model 100 that has no display when I turn it on, but after > waiting > > a few minutes, the display begins to show. > > I haven't tried that. How long does that take? > > > I am assuming you have tried > > both types of reset: 1) the reset button on the back, and 2) holding > > > shift/pause while turning the machine on. > > I tried the reset button, I didn't know anything about shift/pause. > What > does that do? > > > Does the display show anything > > when the contrast knob is turned? > > The contrast knob doesn't do anything . . . Take th emachine apart and clean the LCD connections to the motherboard. If the batteries have ever leaked, this connection is very prone to corrosion. James From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Nov 2 12:18:39 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Here's A Great Place for Surplus DEC Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971102101839.006caea0@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi All: For those close to Ottawa, Ontario, I've found a fantastic source of DEC boards and associated equipment: Computer Recyclers Inc. 10 Rideau Heights Drive, Nepean, Ontario K2E 7A6 Canada (613) 723-3135 Fax: (613) 723-4607 I've been to Ottawa 3 times in the past year (work related), and each time they've had HUNDREDS of boards, systems, cables, etc., tons of stuff from DEC and other DEC sites. They are recyclers, i.e. they feed dumpsters and metal recyclers, so prices are great. Dual height boards are flat rate $5 CDN, quad height flat rate $10 CDN. If you need boards, power supplies, backplanes, rails, racks, cables, drives, terminals, printers, etc then this is a good place to check. My finds from last week included 2 TK70 drives and a TQK70 controller for $25. Unfortunately the selection is largely hit and miss as they move systems through pretty quickly. There's currently no inventory, you have to show up and look through their oil drums of boards etc. I did, on my last trip, provide them with the "dec field guide" board inventory document, and suggest to the owner that they catalog and sell their boards on the net, but we'll have to see if they do so. For PC types, they also have some PC class stuff, mainboards, etc but I didn't really look at these. For info of the group, Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 2 12:42:00 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Kim-1, was Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was References: <9711021335.AA11693@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <345CC977.ED6E5061@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Actually it's far from thier first. There was several models of the > PET, > > and another earlier one whose name escapes me (KIT?). > > I believe you're thinking of the KIM-1. It was originally > made and sold by MOS Technologies, which was apparently bought by > Commodore at some point. Does anyone know if the KIM-1 was made before *and* after MOS Technologies was aquired by Commodore? If so, were there any differences between the boards (identification wise)? From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Nov 2 12:47:14 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Kim-1, was Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was In-Reply-To: <345CC977.ED6E5061@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Marvin wrote: >Does anyone know if the KIM-1 was made before *and* after MOS Technologies >was aquired by Commodore? If so, were there any differences between the >boards (identification wise)? I once got a good look at a KIM-1. (I have pictures of it somewhere...) This particular one was marked 'MOS Technologies C= Commodore KIM-1'. (It very clearly had the commodore logo and name on it.) From this, I assume it was made after the aquisition. ttfn srw From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 2 13:23:00 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 Message-ID: <199711021923.AA25321@world.std.com> <> > have one model 100 that has no display when I turn it on, but after <> waiting <> > a few minutes, the display begins to show. <> <> I haven't tried that. How long does that take? <> <> > I am assuming you have tried <> > both types of reset: 1) the reset button on the back, and 2) holding <> <> > shift/pause while turning the machine on. <> <> I tried the reset button, I didn't know anything about shift/pause. <> What <> does that do? <> <> > Does the display show anything <> > when the contrast knob is turned? <> <> The contrast knob doesn't do anything . . . Any machine that runs on nicads, they are suspect until checked for leakage and charged. Often they develope internal shorts that render them impossible to charge in the machine. Replacement is the best course in most cases. Allison From transit at primenet.com Sun Nov 2 15:06:11 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 In-Reply-To: <199711021923.AA25321@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > <> > <> > Does the display show anything > <> > when the contrast knob is turned? > <> > <> The contrast knob doesn't do anything . . . > > Any machine that runs on nicads, they are suspect until checked for > leakage and charged. Often they develope internal shorts that render > them impossible to charge in the machine. Replacement is the best course > in most cases. I thought this machine just used regular batteries. (I guess it could run on nicads as well, but doesn't require them). At any event, there were four regular Duracell alkalines (not working) in the machine when I bought it. Or, are their other batteries buried somewhere inside the case? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Nov 2 15:14:49 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Kim-1, was Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was In-Reply-To: from "Scott Walde" at Nov 2, 97 12:47:14 pm Message-ID: <9711022114.AA06010@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971102/5e609d2d/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 2 15:36:52 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 References: Message-ID: <345CF274.7440126B@rain.org> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Any machine that runs on nicads, they are suspect until checked for > > leakage and charged. Often they develope internal shorts that render > > them impossible to charge in the machine. Replacement is the best course > > > in most cases. > > I thought this machine just used regular batteries. (I guess it could run > on nicads as well, but doesn't require them). At any event, there were > four regular Duracell alkalines (not working) in the machine when I bought > > it. > > Or, are their other batteries buried somewhere inside the case? The nicad battery is used to backup the memory. It is soldered in place and is located inside the case. Of the 6+ machines I have had apart, only one had a nicad that was leaking. I have found that the nicads are much more susceptable to leakage when they sit uncharged for long periods of time. From mark at technosis.com.au Sun Nov 2 16:31:46 1997 From: mark at technosis.com.au (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Please un-subscribe me from this list Message-ID: <01BCE83B.50D23840@mark.technosis.com.au> My Apologies for not having the proper un-subscribe details on hand. I will be away for 3 weeks and others will be checking my email at work so I need to unsubscribe to reduce the amount of filtering they have to do. Thanks, Mark. (mark@technosis.com.au) From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Nov 1 19:59:59 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Commodore's First was a VIC-20??? References: <199711010802.AAA25006@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <345BDE9F.7920@goldrush.com> >From: "PG Manney" >Subject: Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was [snip!] >>> I'm new at collecting classics. What is a VIC-20? The VIC-20 was Commodore's first computer...2K of RAM (I think), did sounds and color TV screen stuff. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the VIC-20 is pretty far down the line in computers from Commodore it debuted as the last model of the PET/CBM line came into being, the SuperPET. VIC-20 has 5k of RAM which about 3.5k is available for BASIC programs (the rest is for operating registers, video memory, etc.) [snip!] > and Apple? >Apple II C (I think). >> I have a TV screen, I even have one in the guest >>bedroom that's used once in a blue moon. Didn't the older Apples up to the >>IIGS have attached monitors? >I don't think so. I'm no Apple expert, though. I am not an expert but there were RF modualtors (the thing you use to connect a computer to a TV) for the Apple, from my historical research Apple could not get FCC certification for an RF adapter for the ][s so they did not sell any but routed customers to their supplier. I think the product name was SupRMod or SupRMod ][ or something like that... In general if it has a composite video output, you proabably can find an RF modualtor for it. :D >thedm@sunflower.com Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From engine at chac.org Sun Nov 2 19:24:42 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Sup'r Mod Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971102172439.00f39920@pop.batnet.com> At 17:59 11/1/97 -0800, you wrote: >I am not an expert but there were RF modulators (the thing you use to >connect a computer to a TV) for the Apple, from my historical research >Apple could not get FCC certification for an RF adapter for the ][s so >they did not sell any but routed customers to their supplier. I think >the product name was SupRMod or SupRMod ][ or something like that.... If you want to be Captain-Nitpickily accurate, it was called Sup'r Mod, and the supplier's name was Marty Spergel -- the guy who first made himself famous at the Homebrew Computer Club by GIVING away an Intel 8080 chip. ("*gee!*") It wasn't that "Apple could not get FCC certification for an RF adapter," but that they knew darn well they didn't want to, because it would have slowed things up, cost a lot, and maybe forced design changes. Independent certification for a third-party RF modulator was much easier and cheaper. So the ]['s went out with advice to the customer that they did NOT meet FCC spec, and that if interference was encountered, it was the customer's responsibility to interpolate a proper device. I suspect Apple actually subsidized the certification of the Sup'r Mod, and everything after that was gravy -- Apple got off the FCC hook, the ][ stayed cheap to build, and Marty sold a g'zillion Sup'r Mods and got modulatedly rich. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From gzozman at escape.ca Sun Nov 2 06:48:36 1997 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <345C76A4.424C@escape.ca> I have two original Compaq Portables, both of which are giving POST errors when they boot which indicate bad RAM. I have gone through a few rounds of swapping RAM chips between the machines to identify the bad chips, but have come up against a potential roadblock. My problem is that there are a number of different chips used in the machines. As I don't have any data books on these chips, I am not sure if the different numbers are simply different manufacturer's numbers for the same chips, if some of the numbers are simply date codes, or if they are really different, incompatible chips. If someone is familiar with these numbers, or can look them up for me, I would really appreciate it: Chip #1: Hitachi 1818-3006 Japan 8332U HM4864P-3 Chip #2: NEC 8539PF513 D41256C-15 Chip #3: Fairchild (I think; has an "F" with a bar above and below it) MB81256-15 8548 M79 BC Chip #4: NEC 8538PF532 D41256C-15 If you could let me know the size of each chip, as well as the width of the memory, it would help me determine what size of RAM I should be setting the motherboard DIP switches for. Also, would I be correct in assuming the "-15" appearing on most of the chips specifies 15ns? If anyone is familiar with adding RAM to the motherboard on the Compaq, I would appreciate your input on the following: The machine has 4 banks of RAM, consisting of 8 chips each, plus 1 chip for each bank marked "BIT 0". The first two banks of chips (0 & 1) are soldered, the other two (2 & 3) are socketed. 1) Is the "BIT 0" chip a parity chip? 2) Can RAM be installed in Bank 2 without having to populate Bank 3? Any help in regards to the above is much appreciated!! Thanks in advance. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Nov 2 20:08:54 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <345C76A4.424C@escape.ca> from "Grant Zozman" at Nov 2, 97 06:48:36 am Message-ID: <9711030208.AA11928@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971102/b4be1cc4/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Nov 2 20:09:30 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Kim-1, was Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971103020930.006856c4@pop3.concentric.net> Commodore put their name on the board after they bought the company in October 1976. Before that date the boards have "MOS" on them after they have "Commodore". Hope this helps. John At 10:42 AM 11/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> > Actually it's far from thier first. There was several models of the >> PET, >> > and another earlier one whose name escapes me (KIT?). >> >> I believe you're thinking of the KIM-1. It was originally >> made and sold by MOS Technologies, which was apparently bought by >> Commodore at some point. > >Does anyone know if the KIM-1 was made before *and* after MOS Technologies >was aquired by Commodore? If so, were there any differences between the >boards (identification wise)? > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Nov 2 20:12:11 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Kim-1, was Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971103021211.0069a5a0@pop3.concentric.net> Sorry but I forgot to say that I have a Kim-1 and the manuals for it, so if you need something let me know. John At 01:14 PM 11/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >> >Does anyone know if the KIM-1 was made before *and* after MOS Technologies >> >was aquired by Commodore? If so, were there any differences between the >> >boards (identification wise)? >> >> I once got a good look at a KIM-1. (I have pictures of it somewhere...) >> This particular one was marked 'MOS Technologies C= Commodore KIM-1'. (It >> very clearly had the commodore logo and name on it.) From this, I assume >> it was made after the aquisition. > >All my KIM-1's are from before the aquisition and don't have "C=" >or "Commodore" on them anywhere. > >A good picture of the pre-Commodore KIM-1 is in BYTE's review. I think it's >August 1976, but I don't know for sure because my BYTE collection >is several miles away at the moment... > >Tim. > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Nov 2 20:14:52 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: 8-bit Atari's Message-ID: <971102211248_1403165962@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-01 22:50:14 EST, Zane Healy put forth: > I had a good day scrounging the junk stores, first chance I've had in about > two months to do any serious looking. Among the things I came up with > today were an Atari 400 and a Atari 800. No Power Supply for either > though, but then I'm used to that problem. The question is, what on earth > does it use for a PS? Can I just break out the old Atari 2600 and use it's > PS? on my ps for my atari 400 it says the output is 9v ac but im not sure if the plug is center positive or not. anyone have tapes for the 400? i have the "program recorder" but nothing to use in it. david From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Nov 2 20:22:33 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971103022233.00697fdc@pop3.concentric.net> Your chip #1 is a 64k chip speed of 30ns, chips 2&3 are 256k at 150ns speed. The last set of tell the the size and speed (64-3 and 256-15). John At 06:48 AM 11/2/97 -0600, you wrote: >I have two original Compaq Portables, both of which are giving POST >errors when they boot which indicate bad RAM. I have gone through a few >rounds of swapping RAM chips between the machines to identify the bad >chips, but have come up against a potential roadblock. > >My problem is that there are a number of different chips used in the >machines. As I don't have any data books on these chips, I am not sure >if the different numbers are simply different manufacturer's numbers for >the same chips, if some of the numbers are simply date codes, or if they >are really different, incompatible chips. > >If someone is familiar with these numbers, or can look them up for me, I >would really appreciate it: > >Chip #1: >Hitachi >1818-3006 >Japan 8332U >HM4864P-3 > >Chip #2: >NEC >8539PF513 >D41256C-15 > >Chip #3: >Fairchild (I think; has an "F" with a bar above and below it) >MB81256-15 >8548 M79 BC > >Chip #4: >NEC >8538PF532 >D41256C-15 > >If you could let me know the size of each chip, as well as the width of >the memory, it would help me determine what size of RAM I should be >setting the motherboard DIP switches for. Also, would I be correct in >assuming the "-15" appearing on most of the chips specifies 15ns? > >If anyone is familiar with adding RAM to the motherboard on the Compaq, >I would appreciate your input on the following: > >The machine has 4 banks of RAM, consisting of 8 chips each, plus 1 chip >for each bank marked "BIT 0". The first two banks of chips (0 & 1) are >soldered, the other two (2 & 3) are socketed. > >1) Is the "BIT 0" chip a parity chip? >2) Can RAM be installed in Bank 2 without having to populate Bank 3? > >Any help in regards to the above is much appreciated!! Thanks in >advance. > > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 2 20:24:25 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Vic-20 was Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was In-Reply-To: <19971102140505.AAB13614@hotze> Message-ID: >Congradulations on getting your VIC-20, and I would like to know about it's >specs. That might take some time, it got accidentaly buried in the storage shed out back today. Although I'm going to be moving most of the contents into a storage unit sometime in the next week or so because it's getting to damp around here for an outdoor storage shed (one advantage to summertime). I happened to think of something else concerning the VIC-20 though. If you aren't getting a Commodore 1541 disk drive with it, you'll want one. I always had the cassette recorder is all, and always wanted the disk drive. It used to be that the drives were more than the computers, well they usually are it seems, but now they're affordable. I remember that it used to take about 5 minutes to load a 8k game from tape. >I'm only living here for a few years, so it's a multisystem, so it can do >NTSC, PAL or any other major standard. They're PAL pretty much everywhere Ah, one of the good TV's. Unfortunatly they don't seem to sell such things in the US. I was actually looking for one several years ago. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Nov 2 20:35:38 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971103022233.00697fdc@pop3.concentric.net> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Nov 2, 97 08:22:33 pm Message-ID: <9711030235.AA06966@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971102/1633a9de/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 2 20:44:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Kim-1, was Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was References: <1.5.4.32.19971103021211.0069a5a0@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <345D3AA3.6CE4B13E@rain.org> John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Sorry but I forgot to say that I have a Kim-1 and the manuals for it, so > if > you need something let me know. John Hi John, Thanks for the offer but I have the manual set for the MOS KIM-1. This one had only the MOS markings on everything including the manuals, which is why I asked if there was a difference before and after Commodore acquired MOS Technologies. Darn it all, now I have to look for one with the Commodore markings :). Marvin From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Nov 2 21:39:32 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Vic-20 was Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was Message-ID: <19971103040101.AAA24268@hotze> >That might take some time, it got accidentaly buried in the storage shed >out back today. Although I'm going to be moving most of the contents into >a storage unit sometime in the next week or so because it's getting to >damp around here for an outdoor storage shed (one advantage to summertime) Here, it's summer all year round. Good and bad! >I happened to think of something else concerning the VIC-20 though. If you >aren't getting a Commodore 1541 disk drive with it, you'll want one. Okay, thanks. I don't know if I'm getting one; it appears that PG Manney's E-mail is a work adress, or he was away for the weekend or something. >Ah, one of the good TV's. Unfortunatly they don't seem to sell such things >in the US. I was actually looking for one several years ago. You might want to check in the Afeas (how ever it's spelled) catalog, as they're made for military families, so they ususally have things like that if you still want one. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Nov 2 21:55:44 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <19971103040101.AAB24268@hotze> I disagree with both of you. 300ns is more like the 70's to me. Even the 1982 IBM PC XT had 200ns RAM. A year later adding a third to that figure makes no since. But 300ns might be right; as I would KILL for 30ns RAM in a Pentium 233!!!! Even the fastest EDO RAM (Slightly outdated, but still recent) is at 50ns; so 30ns makes ZERO sense. ---------- From: Tim Shoppa To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Help Identifying RAM Chips Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 5:35 AM > Your chip #1 is a 64k chip speed of 30ns, chips 2&3 are 256k at 150ns speed. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I disagree with the 30ns figure; why the heck would a Compaq Portable from 1983 have 30ns RAM in it? 300ns seems far more likely, and is perfectly consistent with the numbering from manufacturers of that era. > The last set of tell the the size and speed (64-3 and 256-15). John > >I have two original Compaq Portables, both of which are giving POST > >errors when they boot which indicate bad RAM. I have gone through a few > >... > >Chip #1: > >Hitachi > >1818-3006 > >Japan 8332U > >HM4864P-3 Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 2 17:18:21 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Monitors... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971031112911.00988100@mail.northernway.net> References: <199710310916.EAA23762@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199711030422.XAA17675@smtp.interlog.com> On 31 Oct 97 at 11:29, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Lawrence Walker said: > > > I've got a NEC Multi 2A which unfortunately is one of the few of > >the old NEC's that IIHC won't work with my ST. It has the 15 > >pin analogue plug and I've heard that adapters for 9-pin are > >available. What are the different type of 'chines they would work > >with . At present I use a 15-pin ABCD monitor switchbox with my > >MessyDoze analogue boxes. > > Tho I hate to tell folks they're wrong, but in this case, you may wish to > hear this... the Multi 2a *should* work fine with your ST, unless the 2A > cannot handle negative sync signals. If that's the case, all you'll need is > a one-chip solution to invert the sync signals with (IIRC) a 7404 (or > whatever the hex inverter chip number is... databooks at home, me at work, > and I'm *bad* with remembering numbers). > > AFAIR, the 2A *will* sync down to 15.75KHz, which is what the CoCo3, Amiga > and Atari ST require for their video signals. The person who could tell you > more about this is Dr. Marty Goodman... post a message on > news://bit.listserv.coco/ and you should receive lots of good information. > Tell everyone "Merch" sent you. > > Hope this helps! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional > Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers > zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? > Thanks for the info. The down side is that it's another "must do" project on my plate. %^ } ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From ejames at newwave.net Sun Nov 2 23:14:47 1997 From: ejames at newwave.net (Bruce James) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Amiga 1000 (was:My Recent find) Message-ID: <199711030514.AAA28065@ns.newwave.net> At 04:48 AM 11/1/97 -0500, you wrote: > > >On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Bruce James wrote: > >> and my latest find a Amiga 1000 with 1080 moniter and 512k memory >> anyone have more information on expansion of this computer?? > >I used an Amiga 1000 as my primary computer for six years. Beautiful >machine. The darling of my collection. :) Hi thanks Doug for the reply I am mostly looking for ways of adding more memory and a hard drive.. picked up a second 3 1/2 external drive and rs1200 modem. I need a good terminal program and Word Processer.. Also can you give me a hint on what software will work like most stuff for the a-500 or a-2000?? > I can pull out >my old manuals and magazines and see what I can dig up. Hopefully I >haven't made any errors above. :) > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca Again thanks Bruce James kb8kac tech plus ejames@newwave.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Nov 2 18:26:21 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <19971103040101.AAB24268@hotze> Message-ID: <199711030521.AAA26356@mail.cgocable.net> > I disagree with both of you. 300ns is more like the 70's to me. Even the > 1982 IBM PC XT had 200ns RAM. A year later adding a third to that figure > makes no since. But 300ns might be right; as I would KILL for 30ns RAM in > a Pentium 233!!!! Even the fastest EDO RAM (Slightly outdated, but still > recent) is at 50ns; so 30ns makes ZERO sense. > Correct, the number 1 is 64k and I bet that is for video use i think because: I have old machines like this designs usually uses big 24 dip static memory or dynamic 64k in 4 bits form maybe. 300 Could be static memory more likely than dynamic type which might be 8k x 8bit in a 24 or 26 pin fat package and mostly likely found in video section. Oh yeah, I'm very sure that was normal configuration for that CGA video type for that time in 1983's, that should have 2 of them to make 16k. Other last 3 chips, they're all 256k x 1bit at 150ns. Note! Change all 9 chips in a bank to keep reliablity which you might have experienced having problems suppose if you had just did one chip... 150ns could be 8mhz because 4.77mhz takes exactly 210ns per instruction in 8088 so IBM used 200ns chips. Oh, Tim, I would be surprised if military accidently released 15ns in early 1980's Oh no! :) NOT! The fastest current drams of any kind was 45ns and mostly used in video cards for no reason where 60ns would do well...static chips did not hit 30ns mark for nearly 7 years later, I think. Troll the hardware guy. > ---------- > From: Tim Shoppa > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Re: Help Identifying RAM Chips > Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 5:35 AM > > > Your chip #1 is a 64k chip speed of 30ns, chips 2&3 are 256k at 150ns > speed. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Big nip to save bandwidth... Yes right, Tim. From ejames at newwave.net Sun Nov 2 23:23:07 1997 From: ejames at newwave.net (Bruce James) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: My Recent find Message-ID: <199711030523.AAA29753@ns.newwave.net> Hi Zane, as for the Commodore 128 I got a copy of Big blue reader that works real well... >>Texas Instruments tI994a with Biege plastic Cover and tape Deck >>Color Computer 2 with cassette deck >>Atari 800 and Tape deck > >Hmmm, I'm starting to notice a pattern here with the tape decks :^) yep my first computer back in 1981 was a ti994a that i never expanded past the cassette drive. as for the others hate to get rid of the tapes after all the herd work keeping them up.. besides brings back memorys and makes you appricate the big machines we use now... Bruce James kb8kac tech plus ejames@newwave.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Nov 2 18:55:21 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Whoop! Whoop red alert... Z-100 is semi S100 type pc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971102101839.006caea0@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <199711030550.AAA29441@mail.cgocable.net> I do not have the space (sigh) as I would take it because: I live very close to NY. Here's goes: Troll From: "John Pfuntner" Newsgroups: comp.sys.zenith.z100,comp.sys.zenith Subject: z-100 for FREE - just pay the shipping! Date: 2 Nov 1997 14:40:39 GMT Organization: MHVNet Lines: 28 Message-ID: <01bce79d$5b3df4c0$1329e5ce@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: port91.mhv.net X-Server-Date: 2 Nov 1997 14:40:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: news.cgocable.net!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!cpk-news-hub1. bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-sea-19. sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint! 199.0.0.7!mhv.net!not-for-mail Xref: news.cgocable.net comp.sys.zenith.z100:2483 comp.sys.zenith:2062 I posted this a few weeks ago but didn't much response except that I was crazy to be asking what I was asking for it. So, here's my final deal: I'm offering the following dinosaur: Zenith Z-100 computer (bought as a student at Clarkson College in 1984): 256K RAM (I will also throw in the original 192K chips) Monochrome display 2 5-1/4" "Half-height" Floppy Drives Video memory for shades of grey *NO* hard drive! Software and books for above: DOS, Z-BASIC, Multiplan, Pascal/Fortran Compilers, Turbo Pascal, a C compiler (C86???) A few other disks with games and utilities. Condition: good, a couple of keys don't work too well. Computer has not been used in the past 6 years. Price: I'm asking for NO MONEY For the computer itself but I expect you to pay ALL shipping costs (boxes, etc.). Or perhaps you can just pick it up? I like in "upstate" NY: Ulster County, about 60 miles south of Albany. If you want this antique, you MUST respond by November 14th or this hunk of junk is headed for the junkyard. I kid you not. For more info or bids, contact: John Pfuntner, pfuntner@pobox.com. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 2 21:24:25 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Franklin Ace 1200 Message-ID: Well, I just powered up one of my finds this weekend. It's a Franklin Ace 1200, the amazing thing is I got it from Goodwill, and it came with a box of floppies, the CBASIC reference manual, and a monitor all for $14.95. Not only is it the best deal I've seen at Goodwill, but it's also the first complete system I've seen there. It actually has CPM 2.2 and some other software so I've finally got a fully functional CPM system besides the Commodore 128. Now what I'm wondering about is the character set. It looks really wierd, and has me wondering if there isn't some sort of problem with the video board. The best example is a capital B which looks like this ******* * * * * ******* * * * * ******* This is just one of the wierd looking characters this systems displays. On the other hand when it's acting like an Apple ][ with a 40 column display it seems to have a normal character set. Overall it seems to be a pretty nice system. When I picked it up I thought it was just a simple Apple ][ clone. It's ability to run CPM and having the original CPM disks was a really great plus. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From ampage at geocities.com Mon Nov 3 00:48:51 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: 8-bit Atari's References: <971102211248_1403165962@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <345D73D3.F1790EC0@geocities.com> I have a weird problem with Atari 8-bit stuff... I have a 1020 printer, an 850 interface, and a 400 computer, and two 9v AC power supplies. Nothing works with any of them... The 1020 and its powersupply were new in the box (shrinkwrapped and all) Is this a common problem? From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 3 02:14:22 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: UK Based CPM machine collectors... Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971103001243.49bf647e@ricochet.net> At 11:25 AM 10/31/97 +0000, you wrote: >Are there any collectors in the UK that specialize in CPM machines. Last >night I acquired a Philips PC2000 portable (along with the Corvis Well, I'm not in the UK, nor do I specialize in CP/M machines, but I do specialize in portables. If this is still available, would you be interested in shipping it across the pond? What do you want for it? Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From zaphod1 at airmail.net Mon Nov 3 04:17:27 1997 From: zaphod1 at airmail.net (Erick M. Guzowsky) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: apple III's for sale Message-ID: <345DA4B7.472BC2E6@airmail.net> Tell me more. I need info to act. Thanks Erick Guzowsky zaphod1@airmail.net From RWood54741 at worldnet.att.net Mon Nov 3 04:35:02 1997 From: RWood54741 at worldnet.att.net (RWood54741@worldnet.att.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 kit? References: <19971031172637.AAA10527@hotze> Message-ID: <345DA8D6.2F8D@worldnet.att.net> I recently met someone who has an Altair 8800 that is still in unassembled kit form. Apparently it was bought by the local electric utility but they never got around to finding a use for it. I have offered to buy it from the individual who owns it but he would like to know what is a fair price to put on it. Anyone care to offer an opinion as to what a realistic value would be for this? Also, what is the average selling price these days for an assembled 8800? Thanks, BOB From chemif at mbox.queen.it Mon Nov 3 13:58:17 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Space problems in the UK and US In-Reply-To: <345A0193.EEB438B1@rain.org> References: <199710310916.EAA23762@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.16.19971103135817.3737eb58@mbox.queen.it> At 08:04 31/10/97 -0800, you wrote: >Lawrence Walker wrote: > >> On 28 Oct 97 at 8:30, Marvin wrote: >> >> > I have found that the NEC Multisync coupled with one of the Commodore >> color >> > monitors make a great setup. With those two monitors, just about >> everything >> > is covered. While I haven't checked, the NEC may also be capable of >> > composite video input but I use the Commodore for that since it also has >> an >> > audio input. >> > >> I've got a NEC Multi 2A which unfortunately is one of the few of >> the old NEC's that IIHC won't work with my ST. It has the 15 >> pin analogue plug and I've heard that adapters for 9-pin are >> available. In mine (Nec 3D) it was supplyed inside the original box. Riccardo Romagnoli From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Nov 3 07:17:02 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: 8-bit Atari's Message-ID: <199711031315.HAA26171@sunflower.com> No it's not normal at all I must have pickedup 20 atari computers and have had no dead ones. They are generally pretty reliable hardware, the floppy drives however are another matter, they need to be speed calibrated often. ---------- > From: Asterisk > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: 8-bit Atari's > Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 12:48 AM > > I have a weird problem with Atari 8-bit stuff... > I have a 1020 printer, an 850 interface, and a 400 computer, and two 9v > AC power supplies. Nothing works with any of them... The 1020 and its > powersupply were new in the box (shrinkwrapped and all) > > Is this a common problem? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Nov 3 07:44:28 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Hard drive jumper settings required. Message-ID: I'm going to attach this to the QD21, so I need to reset the jumpers. IBM 115MB ESDI drive, type 0669, sequence # 104040108 There are 6 DIP switched behind the drive terminator. I'm told I have to use a straight-through cable, so I went and got one. The drive does nothing. With a crossover cable (Where the pins are crossed, a normal PC cable) it went click-clunk, click-clunk, and did nothing. The drive is known good. (I pulled it from a PS/2 which we upgraded to a SCSI drive) If anyone works at Advanced Technology Services, the drive came from Cat origionally and has the ATS sticker "ATS-444862" Another barcode on top of the drive by the air inlet says "B1AF3092241" From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 3 08:55:27 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Beginners Need Help Message-ID: <19971103152101.AAC8746@hotze> Hello. I'm not so much a classic specialist as a computer specialist, as I love both old and new computers. I'm not a proffesional, but do know BASIC, DOS and all other kinds of stuff which the fast-moving stream of technology has left behind, unfortunately. But anyway, I didn't know jack about computers in the early 80's, other than what the average Joe knew: Keyboard, commands, annoying. But since '92, I've been learning more and more. But I need a basic list of systems that are 1. Easy To Find 2. Important enough to draw attention. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 3 08:31:12 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Hard drive jumper settings required. Message-ID: <19971103152101.AAA8746@hotze> I'm not sure about the actual jumper settings, but if you have web access, I would check out http://www.computercraft.com for more info. They have everything from benchmarks to how to upgrade a 486. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: Daniel A. Seagraves To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Hard drive jumper settings required. Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 4:44 PM I'm going to attach this to the QD21, so I need to reset the jumpers. IBM 115MB ESDI drive, type 0669, sequence # 104040108 There are 6 DIP switched behind the drive terminator. I'm told I have to use a straight-through cable, so I went and got one. The drive does nothing. With a crossover cable (Where the pins are crossed, a normal PC cable) it went click-clunk, click-clunk, and did nothing. The drive is known good. (I pulled it from a PS/2 which we upgraded to a SCSI drive) If anyone works at Advanced Technology Services, the drive came from Cat origionally and has the ATS sticker "ATS-444862" Another barcode on top of the drive by the air inlet says "B1AF3092241" From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 3 09:13:31 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <19971103152101.AAE8746@hotze> I wouldn't be so sure about the military part... their MIS seems to either have gone to school and got a degree in dentistry or learned on the Eniac.... corporate will always be faster than military. There is no "secret operations" that deal with these areas of computers. But maybe a company like Microsoft or maybe IBM had someone design something faster..... we'll be at 15ns soon enough anyway. We've gone from 70ns in late 94 to only 45ns today, and SRAM has become so darn fast.... by the way, does anyone know about overclocking an 8088 (the 8mhz variety), by NEC, not Intel? Hope that this input helps, Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Help Identifying RAM Chips Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 3:26 AM > I disagree with both of you. 300ns is more like the 70's to me. Even the > 1982 IBM PC XT had 200ns RAM. A year later adding a third to that figure > makes no since. But 300ns might be right; as I would KILL for 30ns RAM in > a Pentium 233!!!! Even the fastest EDO RAM (Slightly outdated, but still > recent) is at 50ns; so 30ns makes ZERO sense. > Correct, the number 1 is 64k and I bet that is for video use i think because: I have old machines like this designs usually uses big 24 dip static memory or dynamic 64k in 4 bits form maybe. 300 Could be static memory more likely than dynamic type which might be 8k x 8bit in a 24 or 26 pin fat package and mostly likely found in video section. Oh yeah, I'm very sure that was normal configuration for that CGA video type for that time in 1983's, that should have 2 of them to make 16k. Other last 3 chips, they're all 256k x 1bit at 150ns. Note! Change all 9 chips in a bank to keep reliablity which you might have experienced having problems suppose if you had just did one chip... 150ns could be 8mhz because 4.77mhz takes exactly 210ns per instruction in 8088 so IBM used 200ns chips. Oh, Tim, I would be surprised if military accidently released 15ns in early 1980's Oh no! :) NOT! The fastest current drams of any kind was 45ns and mostly used in video cards for no reason where 60ns would do well...static chips did not hit 30ns mark for nearly 7 years later, I think. Troll the hardware guy. > ---------- > From: Tim Shoppa > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Re: Help Identifying RAM Chips > Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 5:35 AM > > > Your chip #1 is a 64k chip speed of 30ns, chips 2&3 are 256k at 150ns > speed. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Big nip to save bandwidth... Yes right, Tim. From pjoules at enterprise.net Mon Nov 3 09:39:40 1997 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Spectrum case colour Message-ID: <01bce86e$b2d855a0$104e53c2@mis2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> Hi, I got a Sinclair Spectrum +2 at the weekend from a car boot sale complete with a light gun and in its original box with about 50 game cassettes for 20UKP. When I used to have one of these many years ago I seem to recall that the case was grey but this one has a black case. Does anyone know if they were made in different colours and, if so, what the significance of the colours was? Regards Pete #include From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Nov 3 09:58:59 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Sup'r Mod In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971102172439.00f39920@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: > > If you want to be Captain-Nitpickily accurate, it was called Sup'r Mod, and > the supplier's name was Marty Spergel -- the guy who first made himself > famous at the Homebrew Computer Club by GIVING away an Intel 8080 chip. > ("*gee!*") Ok, so for the general information and edification of the masses (are there enough of to be a 'mass'?) Does anyone recall just where in the timeline the (infamous) "PixiVerter" fell? This was yet another workaround for the FCC rules, as the PixiVerter was *only* (AIR) available as a kit. (I have one in the collection - still unassembled) There may be a date on the instructions, but I'n not in front of it at the moment. And a lot of these ended up un Apple ][s as well. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 3 10:02:39 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <199711031602.AA29050@world.std.com> Hello. As you may/may not know, I'm working to get a XT working; but I don't have to many of the origional componets. I have the origional XT's monitor and case, but my graphics card is by Multitech, mostly with Chips by a company called Chips (They made the graphics stuff in the IBM Thinkpad 365ED's.), and it's model number (I guess) is PB85101. It does have a composite video adapter on the end, as well as a monitor connection. There are two large processors identical in size and shape to the 8088 (but it probably isn't), but made by Chips. There is also a bus adapter, chips are also made by Toshiba and TI on this thing. It has EGA stamped all over it, so I'm wondering what I should do. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 3 10:10:38 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 kit? References: <19971031172637.AAA10527@hotze> <345DA8D6.2F8D@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <345DF77E.360D545A@rain.org> RWood54741@worldnet.att.net wrote: > Anyone care to offer an opinion as to what a realistic value > would be for this? Also, what is the average selling price > these days for an assembled 8800? I have seen assembled Altairs within the past 5 years with prices ranging from free to $3000. The last one I saw sold went for $800 and included all documentation. I would expect it to be worth a bit more unassembled. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 3 05:27:13 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:24 2005 Subject: Need Jumper Settings... In-Reply-To: <19971103160750.AAA12411@hotze> Message-ID: <199711031622.LAA03944@mail.cgocable.net> "CHIPS" is Chip & Technologies. Well, Sounds like you gotten a great chipset type: it can emulate EGA driving any monitor TTL, CGA while in EGA. Very good. I think C&T first chipset was this kind that allowed low cost computers to happen. Then C&T did in 286 and 386 chipsets including cached types as well. Not too bad chipset for 286 but tends to be bit slower in 386 especially at higher mhz. Now C&T is focusing only on video chipsets for portable applications only mainly driving flat panels. Troll From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Nov 3 10:33:39 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <199711030521.AAA26356@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 3, 97 00:26:21 am Message-ID: <9711031633.AA05203@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1260 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971103/9315b9dc/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 3 06:02:28 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <9711031633.AA05203@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <199711030521.AAA26356@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 3, 97 00:26:21 am Message-ID: <199711031657.LAA09956@mail.cgocable.net> > As Allison pointed out to me via private e-mail, the "-3" on this particular > Hitachi chip means, in all likelihood, that it is a 150ns part. This > agrees with the various databooks I have; it looks like for this series > of Hitachi DRAM chips, "-1" means > 100 ns, the "-2" means 120 ns, and the "-3" means 150 ns, from the > various crossrefs given in my mid-80's TI memory databook. (It's > a commodity-pinout 64k x 1 DRAM; what most other manufacturers > labeled the "4164"). I suspected but was not sure. snip! > It depends on how big you want your memory! 74S89's have been > around for over two decades now, and some of these are graded fast > enough. Of course, they only have a capacity of 0.008 Kbytes :-). Tim, funny that you said about 74s89, IN fact I DID used it to store the data on one of my high-school project. Multi choice counter with that feature based on AND to match and make the counter count. I used s192 or s193 not sure to drive that S89. It's 16 x 4bit which is 64bit static memory. The problem was the opamp hooked to that photodiodes and years later found out that 741 is not that good. It seems to steal each other if I try to use it more than 2 sensors. I use 5. Troll > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 3 12:01:50 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Need Jumper Settings... Message-ID: <19971103180632.AAA21142@hotze> Okay, thanks, but I need to know jumper settings. There is a set of four jumpers accessable in the back when the graphics board is installed. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Need Jumper Settings... Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 2:27 PM "CHIPS" is Chip & Technologies. Well, Sounds like you gotten a great chipset type: it can emulate EGA driving any monitor TTL, CGA while in EGA. Very good. I think C&T first chipset was this kind that allowed low cost computers to happen. Then C&T did in 286 and 386 chipsets including cached types as well. Not too bad chipset for 286 but tends to be bit slower in 386 especially at higher mhz. Now C&T is focusing only on video chipsets for portable applications only mainly driving flat panels. Troll From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Mon Nov 3 13:31:38 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <199711031931.AA06017@maddog.swec.com> On Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:43:58 -0500 (EST), kstumpf@unusual.on.ca remarked: > How many computer collectors does it take to change a light bulb? > Forty. ^^^^^ Shouldn't that really be a power of two, or maybe some bizarre permutation of 12, 16, 18, or 36? And, of course, the punch line: > One to change the light bulb and thirty-nine to chat about how good > the old one was. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Nov 3 00:22:08 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Spectrum case colour References: <01bce86e$b2d855a0$104e53c2@mis2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> Message-ID: <345D6D90.27E0@ndirect.co.uk> Peter Joules wrote: > > Hi, > > I got a Sinclair Spectrum +2 at the weekend from a car boot sale complete > with a light gun and in its original box with about 50 game cassettes for > 20UKP. > > When I used to have one of these many years ago I seem to recall that the > case was grey but this one has a black case. > > Does anyone know if they were made in different colours and, if so, what the > significance of the colours was? > > Regards > Pete > #include Yes, the darker colour +2 is really a +2a which Amstrad decided to make incompatible with the other Spectrum extensions. enrico -- ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website: ============================================================ From Zeus334 at aol.com Mon Nov 3 14:29:41 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: C-64 Message-ID: <971103152524_1870569543@emout11.mail.aol.com> Would anyone be interested in C-64 stuff and a bunch of tapes? I have a 1541 drive, and okidata printer, a bunch of famous programs (space rogue, LOGO, bank street writer, GEOS, F-14 Tomcat,etc.), a few joysticks, a Koala pad with software. 300 bps modem. No actual C-64.I don't want to ship this stuff, but I'll give it for free to anyone who picks it up in Boston, MA, USA. Also, I have some reel to reel tapes, some labelled ADES, NOVA controller, and other things. Most are dated 1980's, 1990's. I'll give them away too. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Nov 3 17:27:59 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. Message-ID: I got the 34, and I just located a UDA50 for it, known working. Cost me $30. I plugged it in, and connected the RA81. It's cabled like this: +----+ +-----+ |1134| | RA81| +----+ +----|+ 1 /-----3/ | | |----**** | | +2+ Cable 1 is the cable from the UDA50. Cable 2 is a normal SDI cable Cable 3 is attached to the RA81 **** is a 4-port SDI bulkhead plug. I have the UDA going in port 1, the patch going from port 1 to port 3, and the RA on port 3. I boot RT11SJ from a RX02 (Because I don't have a DU bootstrap) and tell it "boot du0:" The machine sits there. If I look, 2 led's come on the 2nd (terminator side) uda board, the first 2 closest to the PS. They strobe normally when the machine starts. They stay that way. If I halt the CPU, the BUS ERR light comes on. Did I foul up the cabling, or is the UDA or drive toast, or what? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Nov 3 17:47:39 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 3, 97 05:27:59 pm Message-ID: <9711032347.AA10126@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1576 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971103/ff7c5b92/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Nov 3 18:13:57 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: <9711032347.AA10126@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Ahh! I thought mail'd died here, so I reset the machine. On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Um - what's wrong with the bootstrap at > > http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/ > mscp_rt11.txt > > ? It died, same failure. Got tired of toggling it in and failing every time. I plan to burn it on a ROM and stick it in in place of the RX boot rom. (I already had it, and assumed I was toggling it in wrong. > > > I don't think so. Are all the cables "black" cables? If so, it ought to > work. Yes. > > Given that you're getting a BUS ERR, I'm willing to bet that you don't > have bus continuity done up right. Which slots are the UDA50 cards in? > What are in the other slots? Which slots have the NPR jumpers removed? > Oh, crud. The UDA is in slots 14 and 15. There are 18 slots, as follows: 1 M8266 2 M8265 3 M8267 4 M9312 + M7859 5 M7891 6 GCJ 7 M8256 8 GCJ 9 M7856 10 M9202 + GCJ 11 M7819 12 M7819 13 GCJ 14 M7486 15 M7485 16 GCJ 17 Tape controller (Non-DEC) 18 M9302 + GCJ > Once you do get it working, the RT-11 BOOT command only will boot > up other RT-11 volumes. BOOT/FOR is supposed to boot other (foreign) > OS's. What OS is on this RA drive that you're trying to boot? > RSTS/E (It came from the 44) From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Nov 3 17:44:22 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <19971103040101.AAB24268@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971103184422.00a115a0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Hotze said: >as I would KILL for 30ns RAM in >a Pentium 233!!!! Even the fastest EDO RAM (Slightly outdated, but still >recent) is at 50ns; so 30ns makes ZERO sense. Ah, yes... but EDO is nowhere near the fastest!!! Check out a Computer Shopper if you can get them... advertisers there offer SDRAM DIMMs (168-pin) as fast as 10ns. (not a typo...) Just make sure you get a motherboard with at least one DIMM slot, and you're zoomin'. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 3 19:16:14 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971104011614.0069dfd8@pop3.concentric.net> You are right it was a typo on my part. At 06:35 PM 11/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >> Your chip #1 is a 64k chip speed of 30ns, chips 2&3 are 256k at 150ns speed. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >I disagree with the 30ns figure; why the heck would a Compaq >Portable from 1983 have 30ns RAM in it? 300ns seems >far more likely, and is perfectly consistent with the numbering >from manufacturers of that era. > >> The last set of tell the the size and speed (64-3 and 256-15). John >> >I have two original Compaq Portables, both of which are giving POST >> >errors when they boot which indicate bad RAM. I have gone through a few >> >... >> >Chip #1: >> >Hitachi >> >1818-3006 >> >Japan 8332U >> >HM4864P-3 > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Nov 3 19:28:07 1997 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 kit? In-Reply-To: <345DA8D6.2F8D@worldnet.att.net> References: <19971031172637.AAA10527@hotze> <345DA8D6.2F8D@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <34617980.185557247@hoser> Maybe you should have him put it up on E-Bay on-line auction: www.ebay.com That would give everybody a fair shot at it, and would get him the best price. Of course, I guess it might leave you out in the cold, though. Don't you hate that darned conscience thing anyway? ;-) On Mon, 03 Nov 1997 04:35:02 -0600, you wrote: >I recently met someone who has an Altair 8800 that is still >in unassembled kit form. Apparently it was bought by the local >electric utility but they never got around to finding a use for >it. I have offered to buy it from the individual who owns it >but he would like to know what is a fair price to put on it. >Anyone care to offer an opinion as to what a realistic value >would be for this? Also, what is the average selling price >these days for an assembled 8800? > >Thanks, > >BOB -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 3 19:48:52 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Beginners Need Help Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971104014852.006b1a74@pop3.concentric.net> >Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:34:29 -0600 >To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >From: "John R. Keys Jr." >Subject: Re: Beginners Need Help > >Pickup a copy of A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators by Dr. Thomas F. Haddock. It's a great book. John >At 05:55 PM 11/3/97 +0300, you wrote: >>Hello. I'm not so much a classic specialist as a computer specialist, as I >>love both old and new computers. I'm not a proffesional, but do know >>BASIC, DOS and all other kinds of stuff which the fast-moving stream of >>technology has left behind, unfortunately. But anyway, I didn't know jack >>about computers in the early 80's, other than what the average Joe knew: >>Keyboard, commands, annoying. But since '92, I've been learning more and >>more. But I need a basic list of systems that are 1. Easy To Find 2. >>Important enough to draw attention. >> Thanks, >> >> Tim D. Hotze >> >> > From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 3 19:52:48 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Items for trade or sale Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971104015248.00687f60@pop3.concentric.net> the following are for trade or sale by a guy here in St. Paul MN. PLEASE e-mail him directly at sloan003@maroon.tc.umn.edu Apples - IIc with case, monitor, power supply Platinum IIe with Duo drive, platinum monitor IIplus with amber monitor, 2 drives IIe with monitor, one drive KB's - 2 MAC Plus type, 2 MAC II type, 1 MAC 128 type Mice - 2 old type early MAC's MAC Plus computer Apple Imagewriter II printer 2 Conner 40meg HD 10 MAC SE manuals new in package Tons of new manuals for MAC's Apple II's and other Apple products(ask for list) Appletalk card new Mac II network card From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 3 19:50:48 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103184422.00a115a0@mail.northernway.net> References: <19971103040101.AAB24268@hotze> Message-ID: <199711040646.BAA18304@mail.cgocable.net> Merch, I went through a DEEP cost basis analysis to get most performance gains on each technologies: EDO, FPM and hd's up to Fast ATA-2, HX with PB 512k gives best bang and no improvement in performance without eating too much $ if using SDRAM with that brain-damaged VX or TX chipset especially only with P5 class. Too many new P5 pc's are selling with 32mb or over installed therefore VX and TX is out. TX make good short term upgrade mobo if spending under 600 bux for hd/mb/mem/cpu/PCI vid package. Best use for SDRAM's Dimm's are for the PPro/P5II with FX/LX440 chipsets, and Ultra ATA hds types. Yes, there's PPro adapter board to plug into Slot 1. That done and put aside...about timings; Note this one: 5-1-1-1 and SDRAM technologies: And I hasten to correct a bit about 10ns part...the first part setting up one address takes exactly as long as normal FPM or EDO does to get data back is between 60-50ns which is why the first few cpu cycles is 5 cycles. Without changing the original address, if cpu needs next instruction at that next address from old one the SDRAM made data available the instant CAS is either on rising or falling the next address location is ready to be read for cpu one cycle later, same thing for next 2 cycles later for getting next 2 datas. Also and along that if there is a page cache hit, it's 10ns. Miss is regular old DRAM performance. The possible total true 0 wait with interlaving banks memory with that fastest available typical FPM or EDO is 45-50ns which is appox less than 25mhz for 486 and below. That is why I insist rather strongly to new buyers to take branded pc's that must have fully configured cache and QUESTION the spec paper if cannot see the featured cache when looking at pcs on display. > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Hotze said: > Ranting of wishful thought snipped! > Ah, yes... but EDO is nowhere near the fastest!!! Check out a Computer > Shopper if you can get them... advertisers there offer SDRAM DIMMs > (168-pin) as fast as 10ns. (not a typo...) > > Just make sure you get a motherboard with at least one DIMM slot, and > you're zoomin'. > > HTH, > "Merch" > -- > Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional > Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers > zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? > Troll From transit at primenet.com Tue Nov 4 02:10:11 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 In-Reply-To: <345BF4F1.93322F19@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Marvin wrote: > Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > Hi folks. I picked up a Tandy Model 100 laptop computer from a local > > thrift store a few days ago, for about $9. So far so good, but it doesn't > > > > When I switch it on, then off , the "Low Battery" light flickers, but > > that's all (the LCD stays blank) > I am assuming you have tried > both types of reset: 1) the reset button on the back, and 2) holding > shift/pause while turning the machine on. Does the display show anything > when the contrast knob is turned? In any case, no display is not a good > sign! > I held down the reset button, no joy. Then, I held down shift/pause while turning the machine on. A little more promising (it beeped the first time I did it, then just clicked a bit every subsequent time). Being a little bold, I pressed enter, then tried entering the "BEEP" basic command (Remember now, no action from the LCD . . .) Well, mirabile dictu, the computer beeped! Then I tried typing in a BASIC program beeping in a for-next loop, and it worked! (There's a more substantial SOUND command, that allows the user to select the frequency and even play music, but I forget the syntax). So, I have a working computer, but with a non-working LCD. . .I'll need to open it up and find out what's going on. Unfortunately, I've had little success in opening the machine--I removed all four screws from the bottom, but I still can't take the two halves of the case apart. Anything I'm missing here? Thanks in advance! From pjoules at enterprise.net Tue Nov 4 02:46:27 1997 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Spectrum case colour Message-ID: <01bce8fe$237468a0$104e53c2@mis2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> e.tedeschi wrote: >Yes, the darker colour +2 is really a +2a which Amstrad decided to make >incompatible with the other Spectrum extensions. Is his why some (but not all) of my old spectrum 48k software will not load on this one? Regards Pete #include From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 04:23:48 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > So, I have a working computer, but with a non-working LCD. . .I'll need to > open it up and find out what's going on. Unfortunately, I've had little > success in opening the machine--I removed all four screws from the bottom, > but I still can't take the two halves of the case apart. Anything I'm > missing here? The case is clipped together as well as screwed, and there are cables that link the display and keyboard to the processor board. You need to remove the 4 corner screws on the bottom (it sounds like you've done this) and then pull the 2 parts of the case apart (fairly hard), starting at the left hand side (the side with the BCR connector and the modem switches). Then 'hinge' the 2 parts apart, taking care not to damage the cables (26 way ribbon to the display, 2 bundles of wires to the keyboard). Display problems (assuming the rest of the machine works) tend to be either the interconnecting cable/connectors or a loss of the -ve supply rail. I have a technical manual (with schematics), and can look up the fault tracing procedure for you. > > Thanks in advance! > > -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 04:28:18 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Given that you're getting a BUS ERR, I'm willing to bet that you don't > > have bus continuity done up right. Which slots are the UDA50 cards in? > > What are in the other slots? Which slots have the NPR jumpers removed? > > Remember he has an M9302 terminator. That card will lock up the bus (actually it asserts SACK and keeps it asserted) if the grants are not continuous. On the other hand, having an NPG jumper (the little wire-wrap between pins CA1 and CB1) where you shouldn't have one will cause all sorts of problems. I'm pretty sure that a UDA50 is an NPR (== DMA) device - did you cut the jumper when installing it? Tim : Can you remember which of the 2 UDA50 cards needs to have the NPG jumper cut? Does the other one short CA1 to CB1 anyway? > > Oh, crud. The UDA is in slots 14 and 15. There are 18 slots, as follows: Tracing grants is something you'll get good at if you mess about with PDP11's... > 18 M9302 + GCJ -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 04:33:46 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971103184422.00a115a0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: What this has to do with classic computers I do not know... > Ah, yes... but EDO is nowhere near the fastest!!! Check out a Computer > Shopper if you can get them... advertisers there offer SDRAM DIMMs > (168-pin) as fast as 10ns. (not a typo...) I've used ECL RAMs (about 6 years ago) with a few ns access time, and I'm pretty sure I've seen them with <1ns access in the data books. Of course these devices are (a) small (1K nybbles maximimum), (b) expensive (very expensive), (c) take a LOT of power, and (d) won't fit into PCs. They are used in high-speed data aquisition systems. Another thing. Don't believe that because a RAM is quoted as having a 10ns access time, you can read out a new word every 10ns. Look at the data sheet first. Some manufacturers play specmanship games and quote the time from CAS being asserted to the data being available as the access time. > > Just make sure you get a motherboard with at least one DIMM slot, and > you're zoomin'. > > HTH, > "Merch" -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 04:36:19 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: <199711031931.AA06017@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > Shouldn't that really be a power of two, or maybe some bizarre > permutation of 12, 16, 18, or 36? Which reminds me. Which word lengths have been used by (binary) computers? Off the top of my head : 4 (Intel 4004, etc) 8 (Far too many to list) 12 (PDP8, PDP12, etc) 16 (Again far too many to list) 18 (PDP1, etc) 20 (PERQ 1, PERQ 2) 24 (PERQ 4) 32 (Yep, a lot of those) 36 (PDP10, etc) What others? > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | -tony From manney at nwohio.com Tue Nov 4 04:35:50 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there Message-ID: <199711041102.DAA05486@mx4.u.washington.edu> >>> I'm new at collecting classics. What is a VIC-20? >> >>The VIC-20 was Commodore's first computer...2K of RAM (I think), did sounds >>and color TV screen stuff. > >Actually it's far from thier first. There was several models of the PET, Whoops! of course...and didn't they make a calculator or two? >and another earlier one whose name escapes me (KIT?). Unexpanded it has a >whopping 3583 bytes. I know for a fact it could be expanded to 16k, and I >think there was eventually a larger one than that. The VIC-20 was my only >computer from '82-'86 unfortunatly I gave it away in '90, and I finally got >one to replace it today! From chemif at mbox.queen.it Tue Nov 4 13:49:52 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: References: <199711031931.AA06017@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.16.19971104134952.37279860@mbox.queen.it> At 10.36 04/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Which reminds me. Which word lengths have been used by (binary) computers? >Off the top of my head : > >4 (Intel 4004, etc) >8 (Far too many to list) >12 (PDP8, PDP12, etc) ..omissis... >What others? 9 (Texas 99/4, 990/10, TMS 9900) 86 (Intel Docet again) Riccardo From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Nov 4 06:56:41 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <19971104130901.AAA17616@hotze> Also, 88 (8088), 87 (487, 8087, etc.) and many other numbers. With macs, there's a whole slew of numbers that I don't want to get into. Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: Riccardo Romagnoli To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Computer collecting humor. Date: Tuesday, November 04, 1997 4:49 PM At 10.36 04/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Which reminds me. Which word lengths have been used by (binary) computers? >Off the top of my head : > >4 (Intel 4004, etc) >8 (Far too many to list) >12 (PDP8, PDP12, etc) ..omissis... >What others? 9 (Texas 99/4, 990/10, TMS 9900) 86 (Intel Docet again) Riccardo From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Nov 4 07:42:08 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <9710048786.AA878679827@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Tim Hotze wrote: > Also, 88 (8088), 87 (487, 8087, etc.) and many other numbers. With macs, > there's a whole slew of numbers that I don't want to get into. Riccardo quoted Tony Duel as having written: > >Which reminds me. Which word lengths have been used by (binary) computers? > >Off the top of my head : > > > >4 (Intel 4004, etc) > >8 (Far too many to list) > >12 (PDP8, PDP12, etc) > ..omissis... > >What others? > > 9 (Texas 99/4, 990/10, TMS 9900) > 86 (Intel Docet again) I think some of you have misinterpreted Tony's question. He was asking about word lengths. I do not believe that the Texas 99 series had a word length of 9 bits (16 wasn't it?) The Intel 8088 was 8 bits, the 8086 16; the 80x87, as I recall, are 80 bits internally (another one for your list, Tony, if coprocessors count!) I believe that there are some CPU chips now with 64-bit internal buses. Any advance on 64? At the other end, do the processors in the AMT DAP count as 1-bit machines? Or are they bit-slices of a 32 bit machine? Or a 1024 bit machine? Philip. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 4 07:53:37 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > Remember he has an M9302 terminator. That card will lock up the bus > (actually it asserts SACK and keeps it asserted) if the grants are not > continuous. Hmm... That doesn't appear to be happening... Will the CPU run at all like that? It boots RT-11 from the RX02 okay... > On the other hand, having an NPG jumper (the little wire-wrap between pins > CA1 and CB1) where you shouldn't have one will cause all sorts of > problems. I'm pretty sure that a UDA50 is an NPR (== DMA) device - did you > cut the jumper when installing it? You don't mean the CGJ card, do you? There's something else I'm supposed to have screwed with. You mean I have to cut one of the wire-wraps on the backplane? That doesn't sound like a good idea... is that correct? When I get to work, look for a wirewrap jumper from CA1 to CB1 on the backplane? From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 08:35:57 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: <9710048786.AA878679827@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > The Intel 8088 was 8 bits, the 8086 16; the 80x87, as I recall, are 80 > bits internally (another one for your list, Tony, if coprocessors > count!) If coprocessors count, we can trivially get 64 bits (a lot of the old DEC PDP11 coprocessors were that sort of size). Of course instruction and data words don't have to be the same size. Some of the PIC microcontrollers have 8bit data and 14 bit instructions > > I believe that there are some CPU chips now with 64-bit internal buses. > Any advance on 64? The HP saturn has 64 bit registers (and a 4 bit bus...) > > At the other end, do the processors in the AMT DAP count as 1-bit > machines? Or are they bit-slices of a 32 bit machine? Or a 1024 bit > machine? From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 08:44:07 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Remember he has an M9302 terminator. That card will lock up the bus > > (actually it asserts SACK and keeps it asserted) if the grants are not > > continuous. > > Hmm... That doesn't appear to be happening... Will the CPU run at all > like that? It boots RT-11 from the RX02 okay... If you can boot RT11, then the grants must be continuous. Is the RX211 nearer the CPU than the UDA50? Normally, if you've left an NPG jumper in where you shouldn't have, then the devices past that point fail to do NPR's correctly. > > > On the other hand, having an NPG jumper (the little wire-wrap between pins > > CA1 and CB1) where you shouldn't have one will cause all sorts of > > problems. I'm pretty sure that a UDA50 is an NPR (== DMA) device - did you > > cut the jumper when installing it? > > You don't mean the CGJ card, do you? There's something else I'm supposed No, I mean on the backplane. The little single-height continuity cards only connect the bus grants. The dual-height ones do the NPG signal as well, _but_ the jumper I mentioned below is still fitted, since a lot of older cards do not short CA1 to CB1 themselves, so the wire-wrapped link is need if you use one of those cards. > to have screwed with. You mean I have to cut one of the wire-wraps on the > backplane? That doesn't sound like a good idea... is that correct? When Absolutely. The wire in question is between pins CA1 and CB1 on the _same_ slot - the slot the control cart of the UDA50 is in. It's a little loop of wire, and is quite difficult to find the first time. When I re-wrap them (say after removing a card), I normally use red wire to make them easier to spot the next time. > I get to work, look for a wirewrap jumper from CA1 to CB1 on the > backplane? The jumper shorts NPGin to NPGout on the slot. It must be fitted on slots that do not contain options that use DMA (either empty slots, or slots that contain options that use programmed I/O only - like DL11's, DR11-C's, etc). It must be removed on slots that contain DMA options (like the UDA50). If you just pulled a single-height grant card and fitted the UDA50 card, then I am _sure_ you need to cut this jumper as well. Otherwise NPGin is shorted to NPGout on the UDA50 and the internal grant logic goes crazy on this card (it won't do any damage, though). > > > -tony From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Tue Nov 4 08:50:16 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Apple _did_ release rights to 2nd party! Message-ID: In the past I have seen a _little_ discussion here about how some companies, such as Tandy (with their CoCo), and other companies should re-release their old 8-bit computers targeted towards the current kids community... similar to what v-tech does with their kids computers. I also heard a comment recently that said there is no way Apple computers would ever license someone else to produce their computers... I beleive the discussion was regarding the black case Apples. Anyway, I recently saw in Christmas Catalog that Tiger Computing is selling a computer, that takes cartridges only, for about $200. You hook it to your tv, and most of the available software is original Apple titles by MECC, a popular Apple educational software developer. It even says in the description that this little lap-top size unit is licensed from Apple, and based on Apple //e technology! Even more, you can buy a cheap 14.4 modem cartridge that allows internet access. Does anyone have one of these Tigers? Just curious. Also, still looking for a Laser 50 (Sam Ismail? Bill? etc., etc., and am curious for more information on my Laser 310 I just picked up. Maybe a trade straight across? Well, my $.02 worth, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 4 09:36:59 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > If you can boot RT11, then the grants must be continuous. Is the RX211 > nearer the CPU than the UDA50? Normally, if you've left an NPG jumper in > where you shouldn't have, then the devices past that point fail to do > NPR's correctly. It's closer. > > > > > > > You don't mean the CGJ card, do you? There's something else I'm supposed > > No, I mean on the backplane. The little single-height continuity cards > only connect the bus grants. The dual-height ones do the NPG signal as > well, _but_ the jumper I mentioned below is still fitted, since a lot of > older cards do not short CA1 to CB1 themselves, so the wire-wrapped link > is need if you use one of those cards. > > > to have screwed with. You mean I have to cut one of the wire-wraps on the > > backplane? That doesn't sound like a good idea... is that correct? When > > Absolutely. The wire in question is between pins CA1 and CB1 on the _same_ > slot - the slot the control cart of the UDA50 is in. It's a little loop of > wire, and is quite difficult to find the first time. Okay... I'll give it a shot! But if I foul up, I'm stuck - I don't have a wirewrap tool. > > When I re-wrap them (say after removing a card), I normally use red wire > to make them easier to spot the next time. > > > The jumper shorts NPGin to NPGout on the slot. It must be fitted on slots > that do not contain options that use DMA (either empty slots, or slots > that contain options that use programmed I/O only - like DL11's, DR11-C's, > etc). It must be removed on slots that contain DMA options (like the > UDA50). If you just pulled a single-height grant card and fitted the UDA50 > card, then I am _sure_ you need to cut this jumper as well. Otherwise > NPGin is shorted to NPGout on the UDA50 and the internal grant logic goes > crazy on this card (it won't do any damage, though). Oh! That's what's happening... OK, I'll go look at it. Thanks! From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 09:59:57 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Absolutely. The wire in question is between pins CA1 and CB1 on the _same_ > > slot - the slot the control cart of the UDA50 is in. It's a little loop of > > wire, and is quite difficult to find the first time. > > Okay... I'll give it a shot! But if I foul up, I'm stuck - I don't have > a wirewrap tool. You can always solder a jumper back in place. But a 3-in-1 (wrap, unwrap, strip) wirewrapping tool is not that expensive (say about $25, I think), and is almost essential if you work on DEC backplanes (or on a lot of other computer hardware). I'd recomend buying one. For some crazy reason DEC fitted the CA1-CB1 jumper before they put the other wires on those pins. So you have to cut it - you can't unwrap the old jumper, alas. > Thanks! -tony From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 4 10:04:44 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <199711041604.AA28863@world.std.com> < 9 (Texas 99/4, 990/10, TMS 9900) the ti machines were all 16bit. < 86 (Intel Docet again) ???? Intel has done 2(bitslice), 4, 8, 16, and 32. 1bit Moto 14500 (actually 1bit data and 4 bit control word) 4bit ti1000, NEC uCOM4, NEC 75xx series, 4004, 4040 all had 4 bit data paths but the instruction words were 8bit! 22bit Perkin Elmur 60bit CDC 64bit DEC Alpha Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 4 10:04:51 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <199711041604.AA29022@world.std.com> Anybody have any information pertaining to a Visual Technologies unit # Visual 1083? I think its also called a "Commuter". Thanks in advance. Sam Uncler From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 4 10:17:32 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 4, 97 10:28:18 am Message-ID: <9711041617.AA04624@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 320 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971104/242f2501/attachment.ksh From jrice at texoma.net Tue Nov 4 10:21:18 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 References: Message-ID: <345F4B7E.2B2A372B@texoma.net> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > > > Hi folks. I picked up a Tandy Model 100 laptop computer from a > local > > > thrift store a few days ago, for about $9. So far so good, but it > doesn't > > > > > > When I switch it on, then off , the "Low Battery" light flickers, > but > > > that's all (the LCD stays blank) > > > I am assuming you have tried > > both types of reset: 1) the reset button on the back, and 2) holding > > > shift/pause while turning the machine on. Does the display show > anything > > when the contrast knob is turned? In any case, no display is not a > good > > sign! > > > > I held down the reset button, no joy. > > Then, I held down shift/pause while turning the machine on. A little > more promising (it beeped the first time I did it, then just clicked a > > bit every subsequent time). > > Being a little bold, I pressed enter, then tried entering the "BEEP" > basic command (Remember now, no action from the LCD . . .) Well, > mirabile > dictu, the computer beeped! Then I tried typing in a BASIC program > beeping > in a for-next loop, and it worked! (There's a more substantial SOUND > command, that allows the user to select the frequency and even play > music, but I forget the syntax). > > So, I have a working computer, but with a non-working LCD. . .I'll > need to > open it up and find out what's going on. Unfortunately, I've had > little > success in opening the machine--I removed all four screws from the > bottom, > but I still can't take the two halves of the case apart. Anything I'm > missing here? > > Thanks in advance! One you get the screw out you need to gently pry the two halves apart. The top swings off to the right leaving the back of the LCD visible. James From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 4 10:23:16 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 4, 97 03:59:57 pm Message-ID: <9711041623.AA06904@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1096 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971104/c2bf98e1/attachment.ksh From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Nov 4 10:23:31 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. Message-ID: <9710048786.AA878689548@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > > Absolutely. The wire in question is between pins CA1 and CB1 on the _same_ > > > slot - the slot the control cart of the UDA50 is in. It's a little loop of > > > wire, and is quite difficult to find the first time. > > > > Okay... I'll give it a shot! But if I foul up, I'm stuck - I don't have > > a wirewrap tool. > > You can always solder a jumper back in place. Oh, come on, Tony, _please!_ Individual socket pins from various types of connector (including D I think) fit quite well over these backplane pins. Crimp or solder a short length of wire to two of these and hey presto! A removable NPG jumper. NB take care that these don't stick out so far as to foul on the case... Philip. From marvin at rain.org Tue Nov 4 10:28:58 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. References: Message-ID: <345F4D4A.22D844FC@rain.org> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Absolutely. The wire in question is between pins CA1 and CB1 on the > _same_ > > slot - the slot the control cart of the UDA50 is in. It's a little loop > of > > wire, and is quite difficult to find the first time. > > Okay... I'll give it a shot! But if I foul up, I'm stuck - I don't have > a wirewrap tool. Radio Shack has an inexpensive wirewrap tool that sells for somewhere around $8. While not a great tool, it is adequate for small jobs and it will wrap as well as unwrap. From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 10:57:23 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: <9711041617.AA04624@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > > Tim : Can you remember which of the 2 UDA50 cards needs to have the NPG > > jumper cut? > > Not off the top of my head. I _think_ it's the one that the drive cable does not connect to, but my UDA50 is at home. But since the other card directly shorts CA1 to CB1 it's easy to check (just look for the card with those two fingers shorted together and pick the other one), and it doesn't matter anyway. As Tim said, the official instructions tell you to cut both jumpers and rely on the cards to complete the NPG chain. > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 11:03:25 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: <9711041623.AA06904@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: [NPG jumpers] > I've often seen DEC field maintenance droids use the little 0.1" header > jumpers while debugging backplanes. You have to bend the pins to install > one, and they are hardly very permanent, but they do work in a pinch. > > Other workarounds include two barrel-type header connectors with a short > piece of wire soldered between them. Hmmm... While such kludges may be great if you need to quickly try a machine with a board removed, I'd rather use a proper soldered or wrapped jumper in a machine I was trying to use. After all, the tool needed to do the job properly is not expensive, and it's useful for a lot of other repairs as well. Why kludge when the proper repair is easier and quicker? > > For some crazy reason DEC fitted the CA1-CB1 jumper before they put the > > other wires on those pins. So you have to cut it - you can't unwrap the > > old jumper, alas. > > If you expend a little effort, you can usually unwrap it. This is what > dental picks and very narrow needle-nosed pliers are needed for... I'll remind you of that next time you're sitting alongside a fully stuffed BA11-F trying to remove an NPG jumper from the middle of a DD11-D backplane :-). It's a lot easier to dike it out. And even if you do manage to remove it, you have to put the replacement on top of the other wires - you can't re-wrap it in the same position. I still think this jumper should have been fitted _after_ the other wiring. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > -tony From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Tue Nov 4 11:13:34 1997 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > Of course instruction and data words don't have to be the same size. Some > of the PIC microcontrollers have 8bit data and 14 bit instructions Likewise, the GI 1600 (used in the Intellivision, among other things) has 16-bit data words and 10-bit instructions. Apparently, the Intellivision designers didn't want to waste 6 bits of ROM for each instruction to gain the benefit of being able to store 16-bit data, so Intellivision ROM cartridges are only 10 bits wide. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 4 11:09:32 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. In-Reply-To: <9710048786.AA878689548@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > You can always solder a jumper back in place. > > Oh, come on, Tony, _please!_ And what's wrong with solder? > > Individual socket pins from various types of connector (including D I > think) fit quite well over these backplane pins. Crimp or solder a There are some nice square socket contacts (with all 4 sides present, not U-shaped ones that won't stay on the pin without a housing) in the Farnell catalogue. > short length of wire to two of these and hey presto! A removable NPG > jumper. NB take care that these don't stick out so far as to foul on > the case... Hmmm... I'd not want to trust my machine to something like that. Sure it will work. It's certainly useful for quick tests (I have a few jumpers like that for exactly that purpose), but I'd not trust NPGs to a contact that may fail or may short to 0V at any time. I approve of home repairs and kludges more than most (heck, I'm probably one of the few people here to have rewound an LA3 carriage motor, rebuilt a Canon laser scanner unit, etc). But if you can do the job properly, and if the necessary tools are cheap (heck, $8 is not that much), then why not do so. > > Philip. > > -tony From marvin at rain.org Tue Nov 4 11:55:16 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Darnit! UDA50 problem. References: Message-ID: <345F6184.E4251BC0@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > > > You can always solder a jumper back in place. > > > > Oh, come on, Tony, _please!_ > > And what's wrong with solder? The only problem with soldering to a wire wrap pin is that it can't be wirewrapped again, at least with the same reliability of a non-soldered wirewrap pin. From transit at primenet.com Tue Nov 4 14:48:19 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Needed: rom for Model 100 In-Reply-To: <345F4B7E.2B2A372B@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, James L. Rice wrote: > Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > > So, I have a working computer, but with a non-working LCD. . .I'll > > need to > > open it up and find out what's going on. Unfortunately, I've had > > little > > success in opening the machine--I removed all four screws from the > > bottom, > > but I still can't take the two halves of the case apart. Anything I'm > > missing here? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > One you get the screw out you need to gently pry the two halves > apart. The top swings off to the right leaving the back of the LCD > visible. Done. Not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. (Now upgrading a Mac 7500. . .that's a beast. Appledealerville for that puppy. But I digress. . .) First stop . . check the cable between the motherboard and LCD for corrosion or other trouble. I'll let you all know how that goes. . . . From Chwolka at nt-gmbh.de Tue Nov 4 21:28:55 1997 From: Chwolka at nt-gmbh.de (Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Change History Message-ID: <345FE7F7.22F0@nt-gmbh.de> http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/changes.html -- Greetings from Fritz Chwolka / collecting old computers just for fun supporting the Unofficial CP/M Web Page look at http://cdl.uta.edu/cpm/ and my little collection at http://www.ac.cybercity.de/user/00136/ *-------------------------------------------------------* ! Internet: Chwolka@nt-gmbh.de ! ! fritz.chwolka@ac.cybercity.de ! ! ! ! some times Chwolka@t-online.de ! *=======================================================* ! ! ! If you have an old CP/M System don't throw it away. ! ! Try to find someone who give the system a new home. ! ! ! *-------------------------------------------------------* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971104/1524f3d1/changes.html From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Nov 4 12:21:08 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:25 2005 Subject: Spectrum case colour References: <01bce8fe$237468a0$104e53c2@mis2.coleg-powys.ac.uk> Message-ID: <345F6794.6A14@ndirect.co.uk> Peter Joules wrote: > > e.tedeschi wrote: > > >Yes, the darker colour +2 is really a +2a which Amstrad decided to make > >incompatible with the other Spectrum extensions. > > Is his why some (but not all) of my old spectrum 48k software will not load > on this one? > > Regards > Pete > #include No, VERY few (perhaps three) old 48K Spectrum programs did not load into the +2a. It is more likely that the tape recorder is at fault. Use an external one (and go into 48K mode of course). enrico -- ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website: ============================================================ From william at ans.net Tue Nov 4 16:55:08 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <19971103152101.AAE8746@hotze> Message-ID: > I wouldn't be so sure about the military part... their MIS seems to either > have gone to school and got a degree in dentistry or learned on the > Eniac.... corporate will always be faster than military. There is no > "secret operations" that deal with these areas of computers. Oh yeah??? Military electronics has ALWAYS been about ten years ahead of what we see. That stuff is generally demilitarized (shredded) when it is taken out of service. The really high end stuff - crypto and countermeasures - always is destroyed beyond recognition. True, the computers in the F-16s and such may be a few years behind, but then they do not need such power. Things that need to do signal analysis on incoming radar pulses on the fly, or decrypting very high speed bursts of data do. > company like Microsoft or maybe IBM had someone design something > faster..... we'll be at 15ns soon enough anyway. We've gone from 70ns in > late 94 to only 45ns today, and SRAM has become so darn fast.... I have a bunch of _sub_nano second GaAs RAM, and have dealt with F100K RAM in the past, so I do not find 45ns fast at all. The GaAs RAM came from Rockwell Collins as surplus, originally intended for countermeasures gear (probably). William Donzelli william@ans.net From donm at cts.com Tue Nov 4 17:06:34 1997 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > > > On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > > Shouldn't that really be a power of two, or maybe some bizarre > > permutation of 12, 16, 18, or 36? > > Which reminds me. Which word lengths have been used by (binary) computers? > Off the top of my head : > > 4 (Intel 4004, etc) > 8 (Far too many to list) > 12 (PDP8, PDP12, etc) > 16 (Again far too many to list) > 18 (PDP1, etc) > 20 (PERQ 1, PERQ 2) > 24 (PERQ 4) > 32 (Yep, a lot of those) > 36 (PDP10, etc) > > What others? I have been told that the CDC Cyber 70/170-series used a 60-bit wordlength. - don > > > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | > > -tony > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 4 17:18:06 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 4, 97 10:36:19 am Message-ID: <9711042318.AA09987@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6475 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971104/2bc0724f/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Tue Nov 4 17:22:51 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > 4 (Intel 4004, etc) > > 8 (Far too many to list) > > 12 (PDP8, PDP12, etc) > > 16 (Again far too many to list) > > 18 (PDP1, etc) > > 20 (PERQ 1, PERQ 2) > > 24 (PERQ 4) > > 32 (Yep, a lot of those) > > 36 (PDP10, etc) > > > > What others? > > I have been told that the CDC Cyber 70/170-series used a 60-bit wordlength. Well, I am currently in a room full of 64 bitters (Alphas). Cray machines as well... Many (all?) CDC machines are 60 bit machines. The Multiflow Trace machines are 1024 bits, bacause of their data flow architecture. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Nov 4 17:43:57 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > What others? I think the Connection Machine 1s (THE coolest looking machines ever made) had one bit processors - lots of them! William Donzelli william@ans.net From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Nov 4 18:04:24 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Beginners Need Help Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971104160218.20ef89fc@ricochet.net> At 05:55 PM 11/3/97 +0300, you wrote: >more. But I need a basic list of systems that are 1. Easy To Find 2. >Important enough to draw attention. 1. Depends greatly on where you are. (TI & Tandy common as dirt in Texas, less common in, say, Bahrain.) 2. Depends greatly on the audience. (Common bloke: Apple I, Osborne 01, Altair, a couple others. Me: Atari Portfolio, Model 100, NEC Starlet, Outbound Laptop, etc.) I would seriously recommend checking around on the web for the various virtual museums out there. If you don't know where to start, try and check out the list of links. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Nov 4 18:04:27 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971104160223.0a870fa0@ricochet.net> At 06:13 PM 11/3/97 +0300, you wrote: >I wouldn't be so sure about the military part... their MIS seems to either >have gone to school and got a degree in dentistry or learned on the >Eniac.... corporate will always be faster than military. There is no >"secret operations" that deal with these areas of computers. But maybe a Wrong. For a while (in the early 90's) I subscribed to a magazine called Defense Electronics. The military had things like 50ns RAM available then. They are way ahead in many areas; they can afford to (or used to be able to, anyway) throw money at things, and they often got first dibs. I mean, if you had developed a spiffy new toilet seat, and were going to sell it for $50 each, but the military guys showed up and said "we'll buy 10,000 of them for $10,000 each, but you can't tell anyone about them", what would you do? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 4 17:57:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Stupidity Strikes Again! Message-ID: While moving the 11/34 to a more lighted area, I broke the power switch off the back. Now it doesn't power on. I need a WHOLE NEW POWER SUPPLY! Damn! I hate myself sometimes! That was a Stupid, Stupid, Stupid Mistake! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 4 18:09:11 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Stupidity Strikes Again! In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 4, 97 05:57:01 pm Message-ID: <9711050009.AA18870@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 595 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971104/ff7371f9/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 4 18:17:34 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Stupidity Strikes Again! In-Reply-To: <9711050009.AA18870@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > 1. Manually switch the breakers into the "on" position (must be > done simultaneously for both poles) > > 2. Buy a new set of breakers (available just about anywhere, e.g. Newark) > I'm trying #1. I removed the PS, and I'm gluing the old tops back on. (Damn, that's heavy!) But this wastes ANOTHER day... From dastar at wco.com Tue Nov 4 18:31:05 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Aperiodic wrote: > Anybody have any information pertaining to a Visual Technologies unit # Visual > 1083? I think its also called a "Commuter". I have a Commuter. It's a luggable that is more compact than the other luggables of its day. It has a small LCD display. Um, I know this description is pathetic but I got mine several months ago and haven't looked at it much. I have the manual for it if there's anything you want me to look up. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Nov 4 13:43:52 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971104160223.0a870fa0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199711050039.TAA23514@mail.cgocable.net> > At 06:13 PM 11/3/97 +0300, you wrote: > >I wouldn't be so sure about the military part... their MIS seems to either > >have gone to school and got a degree in dentistry or learned on the > >Eniac.... corporate will always be faster than military. There is no > >"secret operations" that deal with these areas of computers. But maybe a > > Wrong. For a while (in the early 90's) I subscribed to a magazine called > Defense Electronics. The military had things like 50ns RAM available then. > They are way ahead in many areas; they can afford to (or used to be able to, > anyway) throw money at things, and they often got first dibs. Military needs the "THE TOP END" stuff and pull all the stops to get what they need that MOST current technologies allows and hide them and not be seen again. :( > I mean, if you had developed a spiffy new toilet seat, and were going to > sell it for $50 each, but the military guys showed up and said "we'll buy > 10,000 of them for $10,000 each, but you can't tell anyone about them", what > would you do? > I would be damned if that happened and I as suspected Military guys push so far ahead into many technologies areas and happy to know that they are now in sub nansecond area for digital area. What Else? Troll > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 4 19:57:47 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <199711050157.AA21715@world.std.com> Hello to all Had a pretty slow week last week only a few finds will later in week. Today I got a box load of SYM-1's somewere betweeen 15 and 20 of them. I still have not unpacked all the goodies I got today. After I count them and look them over I will offer them for trade or sale. I also got something called a IVS TRUMPCARD 500 by Interactive Video System and have no idea what it is, any help out there ? A copy of Disk Manager MAC in the box with manuals for .07. Apple Writer II model M6000 for $5.35. Also a Shimndru RPR-G1 GC Processor whatever that is, anyone ?? A HP model 2D-2 & 2D-3 Series X-Y recorder service & operating manual. Over at the goodwill a Apple Scanner flatbed model A9M0337 for $45. A Zenith Supersports 286 laptop for $5 and a AMIGA 520 for .25. Well that's all for now have tons of things to test out and will list later. Oh yes found a Next Cube today but the guy pulled it, he had two of them with KB, Mono monitors and mice complete units were $20. I will be going back next week to see if he will let them go. John Keep Computing !!! From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Nov 4 20:54:37 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <19971105030030.AAA16257@hotze> I remember when I wouldn't take a 286. I needed POWER. Like a SERVER. How 'bout a 486??? THAT WOULD LAST UNTIL THE 21st CENTURTY TOO!!! IT COULD RUN WINDOWS 3.1 with NO RAM ERRORS!!! And then when upgrading to Windows 95, I remember the guy there specifaclly falling down laughing, resulting in purchasing 16MB of RAM (Then at $10 a MB), to add to the 12 I had, along with a 486 DX/2 processor. I doubt that the 432 would actually take it. But I think that Intel aimed it at the wrong market. The Digital Alpha (Recently aquired by Intel, with it's RISC... yes, RISC technology) has had some success, with 600 MHz of power in a single chip and x86 "translation software" written by Digital. Also, there is a version of Windows NT 4.0 made ONLY for Alpha's, so the translation software is not used there. Microsoft writes programs like Internet Explorer for Alphas, but they're usually "a month late". Intel might have just bought it to stamp it out, but my guess is they're aiming to do something with the RISC market, they could be attempting to lower the Alpha's power down to H/PC levels and then WINDOWS CE. Maybe they'll take the 300 MHz version, that was avaible in 1995. If Apple can get 150 Mhz into a handheld, why can't Intel? But back to classics. Would the 432 be capible today if it were given a second chance? One last thing. I remember something about a huge warehouse filled with classics. Has anyone heard since? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Tue Nov 4 21:14:09 1997 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Fix your TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I have a few manuals I do not need (never did, actually): > >Service Manual, TRS-80 Model 3 (26-1061/2/3) * >Service Manual, Expansion Interface (26-1140) I know this is late but I have been away for a month from work..anyway YES I would be interested in the manuals noted above. Let me know what the deal is. Cheers Keith Whitehead New Zealand +----------- Keith Whitehead -----------+ | Physics,Chemistry and Biochemistry Depts | | Massey University | | Palmerston North | | New Zealand | | | | Ph +64 6 350-5074 Fax +64 6 354-0207 | +------------------------------------------+ From transit at primenet.com Tue Nov 4 22:02:11 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Model 100 LCD (was: Re: Needed: rom for Model 100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > First stop . . check the cable between the motherboard and LCD > for corrosion or other trouble. I'll let you all know how > that goes. . . . > So far, the cable looks ok. I disconnected it from the motherboard, but didn't see anything untoward. . .(On the other end, the cable is permanently affixed to the LCD daughterboard). I also located the soldered-in nicad, which looked like it was in good shape. . .the voltmeter said that the battery was putting out 4.2 volts. So, where do I go from here (I bet that replacement LCD's are floating around somewhere; on the other hand, I'm willing to bet that there's little or nothing wrong with that LCD. . .) Thanks in advance! From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 4 22:02:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <199711050402.AA19238@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > While moving the 11/34 to a more lighted area, I broke the power switch > off the back. Now it doesn't power on. I need a WHOLE NEW POWER SUPPLY! Prepare to be roasted :-) YOU DO NOT NEED A NEW PSU. You never need a new PSU - repair the old one. It's not that hard (at least not for this fault), and it's a lot easier. OK. Now for some advice. It's not a power switch, it's a circuit breaker. It does the job of the fuse as well. The 2 parts are interlocked so that if either of them trips they both turn off. You may be able to frob the remains of the handles to the 'on' postion, but only if you get them both there together. Breaking the handles off the breaker is just about the most common thing to happen to the BA11-K (11/34, etc) box. I've even seen people bolt a little metal shield over the breaker (using 2 of the mounting screws) to protect it. OK, the worst part is getting the old breaker out. Unplug the power cable (the breaker is in the mains wiring, of course), remove the top of the CPU, remove the lower 4 screws that hold the PSU to the rest of the machine and loosen the upper 2 (do not remove them). Now tip the machine onto one side (if it's not in a rack) or turn it on the slide brackets (if it's in a rack). Pivot the PSU away from the CPU (using the top 2 scres as pivots). Now you'll see a little chassis in the middle of the PSU at the bottom. The breaker is part of that. Unplug the cables from the front (4 pin to the transformer primary, 3 pin to the power switch on the panel, edge connector to the control board). There may be an earth wire as well. Now undo the 3 countersunk screws on the bottom of the chassis and slide it out towards the rear of the machine. It's now trivial to replace the breaker (4 screws and 4 wires with push-on tags). I'd send you a spare if I had any, but I only have the lower-current ones for 220V machines. But it's a standard part and you should be able to find one in the catalogues over there. Don't try to mend the old one. It won't hold and you'll just be wasting your time. > Damn! I hate myself sometimes! > That was a Stupid, Stupid, Stupid Mistake! We've all done similar things... > > > -tony From rcini at email.msn.com Wed Nov 5 07:06:35 1997 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference Message-ID: <0564454071305b7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Not yet a classic, but does anyone have a {spare} copy of the "Technical Reference Personal Computer AT"? This is the tech ref guide for the original IBM PC/AT, published by IBM (I'm guessing in a gray fabric binder). TIA! Rich Cini/WUGNET Charter ClubWin! Member MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking From engine at chac.org Wed Nov 5 10:22:12 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971105082207.00ef9de0@pop.batnet.com> At 08:06 11/5/97 -0500, you wrote: > Not yet a classic, but does anyone have a {spare} copy of the "Technical >Reference Personal Computer AT"? This is the tech ref guide for the original >IBM PC/AT, published by IBM (I'm guessing in a gray fabric binder). Actually, mine was maroon, although the slipcase was gray; and as for "Not yet a classic," the pub. date was of course 1984. You'd be welcome to mine if I still had it, but I don't....think.... I do. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Nov 5 10:35:38 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <9710058787.AA878776674@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > I have been told that the CDC Cyber 70/170-series used a 60-bit wordlength. > > Well, I am currently in a room full of 64 bitters (Alphas). Cray machines > as well... > > Many (all?) CDC machines are 60 bit machines. I have at home a memory bank from a CDC Cyber two-hundred-and-something (?) which is 18 bits wide. I had always assumed that this was 16 bits plus two parity but it doesn't fit into 60 bits either way. (Memory bank is huge quantities of 40ns and 45ns 64k x 1 static RAMs surface mounted on both sides of numerous daughter boards. Each daughter board is 64k x 18 and they stack four deep all over the "mother board" of the bank.) I always meant to use this in something, but somehow I never got around to it... Philip. From Aperiodic at aol.com Wed Nov 5 10:51:23 1997 From: Aperiodic at aol.com (Aperiodic@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference Message-ID: <971105113923_1624330893@emout07.mail.aol.com> Speaking of reference manuals, does anyone have any information / insights into a Visual Technologies Commuter? Manf in 1984, it uses two Intel chips (8086 and 8088) with a plethora of RAM chips not to mention at least four program subroutines. The manufacturer seems to have disowned this particular unit since two people in their tech department have not heard of it. Thanks in advance Sam From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Nov 5 11:04:27 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Two Items Found Message-ID: <19971105171002.AAA28649@hotze> Hello. My computer was broken, and I have the day off, so I spent it mostly calling company after company after company about classic computers. I've found the following: A Sharp "M-80" (Or some letter -80) with a built in display. Probably has an 8088 processor. Nothing except tape drive. Requested price: about $80 USD (In the local currency, so it's a little off) And also a Olvetti Pr-something, like Prosignia, or Pro something PC-1. Monitior looks like it's a 13 inch or so mono. Keyboard and CPU built in, with two 3.5" FDDs. I'm not sure if they're DS DD or DS HD. Does anyone have info on these? How much do you think that they'd go for? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From prp at hf.intel.com Wed Nov 5 11:22:15 1997 From: prp at hf.intel.com (Paul Pierce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. References: <199711050802.AAA28564@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3460AB47.32B6@hf.intel.com> Strange word sizes were used in very early machines and special purpose machines, especially early military computers. If you look hard enough you can probably find any size, especially in the range 8-40. Here are some examples off the top of my head, but I probably have some of them wrong: > 4 (Intel 4004, etc) > 8 (Far too many to list) > 12 (PDP8, PDP12, etc) > 16 (Again far too many to list) > 18 (PDP1, etc) 19 Bendix G15, depending how you count > 20 (PERQ 1, PERQ 2) 22 Packard Bell 250, depending how you count (otherwise 23-24) > 24 (PERQ 4) <- Also Datacraft/Harris > 32 (Yep, a lot of those) > 36 (PDP10, etc) <- including IBM 701 series, Univac 1100 series 40 IAS, SWAC <- Here's the justification for the joke! 48 Burroughs 5500 etc. 60 CDC 6600, Cyber series 64, 128 IBM Stretch You get even more if you include decimal machines. (Is it fair to list the 4004 above?) > -tony Paul From william at ans.net Wed Nov 5 11:27:15 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: <9710058787.AA878776674@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: > I have at home a memory bank from a CDC Cyber two-hundred-and-something > (?) which is 18 bits wide. I had always assumed that this was 16 bits > plus two parity but it doesn't fit into 60 bits either way. (Memory > bank is huge quantities of 40ns and 45ns 64k x 1 static RAMs surface > mounted on both sides of numerous daughter boards. Each daughter board > is 64k x 18 and they stack four deep all over the "mother board" of the > bank.) I always meant to use this in something, but somehow I never got > around to it... That is perhaps from one of the Cyber 203/205/215 supercomputers. These were HUGE vector machines, from the same period (and a rival of) the later Cray-1s. They were 60 bit machines, so I am confused about the x18 organization. Perhaps error checking was involved. You really do not want to do anything with it - CDC made very few of the beasts and your memory bank is a real gem of an artifact. William Donzelli william@ans.net From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 5 11:36:14 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Core Memory References: Message-ID: <3460AE8E.5CF0C264@rain.org> ebay has a core memory board for sale at http://iguana.ebay2.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1657705. I put a bid in on it at $10.00 just to make sure *someone* gets it :). It will be interesting to see what it finally goes for. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Nov 5 12:00:42 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <9710058787.AA878781887@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >> I have at home a memory bank from a CDC Cyber two-hundred-and-something >> (?) which is 18 bits wide. I had always assumed that this was 16 bits >> plus two parity but it doesn't fit into 60 bits either way. (Memory >> bank is huge quantities of 40ns and 45ns 64k x 1 static RAMs surface >> mounted on both sides of numerous daughter boards. Each daughter board >> is 64k x 18 and they stack four deep all over the "mother board" of the >> bank.) I always meant to use this in something, but somehow I never got >> around to it... > > That is perhaps from one of the Cyber 203/205/215 supercomputers. These > were HUGE vector machines, from the same period (and a rival of) the later > Cray-1s. They were 60 bit machines, so I am confused about the x18 > organization. Perhaps error checking was involved. This one was thrown out by the Technical University of {better not say where} in 1993. Not very old - date code on some of the memory chips is 1992. My friend, a student there, whom I visited in August of that year, had eight of these memory banks, eight megabytes each (64k x 2 bytes x four boards deep x sixteen stacks per bank). I swapped him a Keithley 417k electrometer (a very sensitive multimeter) for mine. He also threw in a card from the CPU, which I think I've mentioned here before. The technology is 100k series ECL so should have been faster than Cray 1. (The Cray 1 in the {museum of same town} was 10k series.) From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 5 12:16:13 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Vic-20 was Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there was In-Reply-To: References: <19971102140505.AAB13614@hotze> Message-ID: Tim D. Hotze Wrote: >>Congradulations on getting your VIC-20, and I would like to know about it's >>specs. Tim, I got the VIC dug back up again. So let me see what I can come up with for specs from the manual. Not much, it's about the most pathetic list of specs I've seen, so I'll add comments. Video display is 23 rows x 22 columns On the back: Expansion Port (for cartridges) Most carts were games, some were memory expansion, others were l languages, or applications software. I had a five slot board that plugged in here and then allowed you to plug in five cartridges. You could then select the cartridge you wanted with a rotary switch. 5-pin Video port (For connection to TV) Serial Port (For special accessories like printer, disk drive, etc.) Note, this is a 6-pin DIN plug, nothing like a modern serial port. It is possible to build an X-1541 cable that allows a 1541 drive to be connected to a PC's parallel port. The VIC can use either a 1540 or a 1541 disk drive. Not sure on printers, I had a funky little plotter that used miniature ball point pens (4 colour). Cassette Port (tape cassette goes here) The VIC and C-64 use a proprietary cassette interface, in order to connect a casstte drive to it you need one of their two models. It took about 5 minutes to load an 8k program. User Port (for special accessories) This is a lot like the Cassette Port connector. It could be used for stuff like a modem or RS-232 connector. Right side: Game Port (For Joystick and other game control devices) On/Off switch Power Cord Socket The keyboard is the same as the C-64, the colours are different with the case being a whitish colour. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Nov 5 12:57:58 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Core Memory In-Reply-To: <3460AE8E.5CF0C264@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Nov 5, 97 09:36:14 am Message-ID: <9711051857.AA18910@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 642 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971105/89e34bef/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 5 13:49:52 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Core Memory Message-ID: <199711051949.AA26788@world.std.com> some guy i bought a mac video card from said he had something called an apollo workstation. he said it was a 68020/68030 with a 19 inch monitor, can run *nix, and would only want ~$50 for it. anyone heard of this machine or know anything about it? he said some local colleges used the machines for various duties but are obsolete now. david From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Nov 5 14:46:37 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: apollo computers? In-Reply-To: <971105152540_830884115@mrin39> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971105154637.00b10ca0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, SUPRDAVE@aol.com said: >some guy i bought a mac video card from said he had something called an >apollo workstation. he said it was a 68020/68030 with a 19 inch monitor, can >run *nix, and would only want ~$50 for it. anyone heard of this machine or >know anything about it? he said some local colleges used the machines for >various duties but are obsolete now. Uh, how many's he got, and can I get one??? I would like to have something like that.... if there's only one, I'd recommend you jump on it -- especially if it comes with the monitor at that price. That would be a nice system to learn / use Unix on. If he's got bunches, please let me know where to pick one up! Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From rstrickl at linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us Wed Nov 5 16:03:24 1997 From: rstrickl at linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: apollo computers? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971105154637.00b10ca0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: > especially if it comes with the monitor at that price. That would be a nice > system to learn / use Unix on. Uh.. not really. An Apollo could be anywhere from not much like UNIX at all to vaguely resembling UNIX, depending on how much and which parts of the OS are installed. This isn't to say it's not an interesting machine (it is, in a really crusty sort of way) but you can do way better with an old Sun 3/xx (or even SPARC 1) for that price, if you want a UNIX box to learn/hack on. ok -r From Zeus334 at aol.com Wed Nov 5 17:23:39 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <971105174145_1995669504@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-05 00:04:30 EST, you write: << Oh yeah??? Military electronics has ALWAYS been about ten years ahead of what we see. That stuff is generally demilitarized (shredded) when it is taken out of service. The really high end stuff - crypto and countermeasures - always is destroyed beyond recognition. True, the computers in the F-16s and such may be a few years behind, but then they do not need such power. Things that need to do signal analysis on incoming radar pulses on the fly, or decrypting very high speed bursts of data do. >> Are you saying that, 10 years ago, the military had machines that could carry out calculations with the speed of a Pentium II -300? (I hesitate to mention the Alpha 5-433, because I think the alpha project was originally funded by the military) From spc at armigeron.com Wed Nov 5 18:08:39 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: apollo computers? In-Reply-To: <971105152540_830884115@mrin39> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Nov 5, 97 03:25:50 pm Message-ID: <199711060008.TAA21713@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great SUPRDAVE@aol.com once stated: > > some guy i bought a mac video card from said he had something called an > apollo workstation. he said it was a 68020/68030 with a 19 inch monitor, can > run *nix, and would only want ~$50 for it. anyone heard of this machine or > know anything about it? he said some local colleges used the machines for > various duties but are obsolete now. Is it an Apollo Apollo or an HP Apollo? Because there is a difference, namely in what OS the machine may be able to run. HP bought out Apollo some time ago, but kept producing the Apollos for some time. They're not bad machines, but the Apollo Apollo ran an OS called DomainOS. It's nice, but almost, but not quite entirely unlike Unix. The HP Apollos can run DomainOS, HP-UX (up to 9.x I think), and one fo the free BSD kernels. Make sure it comes with an OS, unless you want to have some fun in tracking down an OS for it. I myself came into posession of two HP Apollo 400s recently (they were free from the local university). Nice boxes, 25Mhz 68040, 32M RAM, ~800M harddrives, 6M video, 20" color monitor, ethernet and token ring network but no OS (although I have a friend that has access to an OS it can run). The bad thing about the boxes I got (other than the serious lack of OS) is that the memory is very proprietary so I'm pretty much stuck with 32M RAM in each (not that I'm complaining). -spc (But I didn't mention them because I don't think they're older than 10 years - and no one wants them because they're not Suns (boo hiss) or Wintel (boo hiss boo hiss)) > david > From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Nov 5 19:07:56 1997 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Message-ID: <199711060107.UAA21367@webern.cs.unc.edu> Hey all. I think its about time I de-lurk and introduce myself. My name is Bill, and I'm very interested in SwTPC and SSB stuff. We had a couple SwTPC 6800 systems in my high school way back when, and I'd love to see one again (or own one!). After signing up for the Classic Computer Rescue Squad, I started thinking, if a big old machine actually needed a rescue, what would we do? I mean, maybe we should collect info on how big these old things are, in terms of floor-space, tonnage, time to dismantle, and so on. Then, when a rescue call comes in, we could maybe decide if we can feasibly deal with it, and if anyone actually wants the thing. If only three guys show up to dismantle 200 tons of vacuum tubes, it isn't gonna happen on-schedule. And it's one thing to keep a mini in a corner, but not all of us can arrange space for, say, a 360. So there are legitimate (if sad) reasons that we might have to pass up a find. Also, would it be good to have a rescue checklist? I can think of a dozen things that might be good to do during a rescue, but I'll bet I wouldn't think of half of it in the excitement of rescue-day. I guess I'm volunteering to collect this, if you all think it's a good idea and want to suggest things. Okay, I'll close with the obligatory lists: Want: SwTPC 6800, CT-64, CT-VM, MF-68 EPROM burner Have (willing to trade away): DecScope terminal (ie: vt52), works DecMate-III (don't yet know if it works) Apple //c with monochrome monitor, some manuals, works Radio Shack CoCo 2's, work Defaced (ie: no faceplate) Amiga something-or-other, with no monitor, keyboard, docs, or anything, probably doesn't work Have (and will keep!): Radio Shack CoCo 1's and a CoCo 3, tech manual IBM PC-XT clone SwTPC S/09 (down with disk problems) Lear-Seigler ADM-31 terminal (bought today!) Of course, some of this stuff would have significant shipping costs associated with it, unless you live nearby (central NC). Cheers, Bill. From rstrickl at linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us Wed Nov 5 19:07:32 1997 From: rstrickl at linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: apollo computers? In-Reply-To: <199711060008.TAA21713@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > The HP Apollos can run DomainOS, HP-UX (up to 9.x I think), and one fo the > free BSD kernels. Make sure it comes with an OS, unless you want to have > some fun in tracking down an OS for it. I have an HP Apollo DN5500, which is only able to run DomainOS, but does have BSD and SysV 'flavours' in addition to the standard 'Aegis' environment. The only HP Apollo systems that will run either DomainOS or HP-UX (up to 9.x, you're right) are the 400 series. Switching from one to the other requires changing the keyboard as well as, of course, the OS and software. There is a very limited amount of hardware that the Apollo DN series machines will accept, even though the hardware design might lead you to believe you have a wider choice. It is limited by OS support. For example, while most later models will allow you to install a SCSI controller, the machine will only boot from an ESDI disk. The older 8000 series colour monitors have notoriously bad pictures, as well. q: The 400 series Apollos are much better in this respect. Agreed on the tracking an OS down; it's a bear for either DomainOS or HP-UX. > ethernet and token ring network You should be aware that this is NOT the same as IBM's Token Ring. It is a different media, a different topology, and a different protocol. I'm by no means an Apollo expert, but I've spent about a year now fighting my DN5500 trying to get it into a usable state, searching for any resource that might possibly help---so I've got a nice pile of info stacked up here on Apollos in general. ok -r From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 5 19:44:17 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: References: <199711060107.UAA21367@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <346120F1.5A65E9DE@rain.org> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Hey all. I think its about time I de-lurk and introduce myself. > My name is Bill, and I'm very interested in SwTPC and SSB stuff. > We had a couple SwTPC 6800 systems in my high school way back when, > and I'd love to see one again (or own one!). Hi Bill, welcome to the list! BTW, what is SSB stuff? I think of SSB as Single-Side Band for ham radio but I don't think that is what you are referring to :). How long have you been lurking? > After signing up for the Classic Computer Rescue Squad, I started > thinking, if a big old machine actually needed a rescue, what > would we do? I mean, maybe we should collect info on how big > these old things are, in terms of floor-space, tonnage, time to > dismantle, and so on. Then, when a rescue call comes in, we That sounds like a really good thing to do and it would be good information to have just because we are collecting these things. Hope to see you posting more frequently now! From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 5 19:49:55 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <199711060149.AA05992@world.std.com> At 03:25 PM 11/5/97 -0500, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >some guy i bought a mac video card from said he had something called an >apollo workstation. he said it was a 68020/68030 with a 19 inch monitor, can >run *nix, and would only want ~$50 for it. anyone heard of this machine or Apollo made workstations similar to (in the eyes of an HP3000 guy) Sun workstations. They were bought by HP. They run X-windows, an adequate terminal emulator, and Mosaic. (I used one briefly during a stint at HP.) They might have Unix underneath, but I couldn't figure out how to do anything except connect to the 3000 and run Mosaic. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 5 20:34:07 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: apollo computers? In-Reply-To: <971105152540_830884115@mrin39> Message-ID: >some guy i bought a mac video card from said he had something called an >apollo workstation. he said it was a 68020/68030 with a 19 inch monitor, can >run *nix, and would only want ~$50 for it. anyone heard of this machine or >know anything about it? he said some local colleges used the machines for >various duties but are obsolete now. I know this much, they're big. I mean like really big. Seriously I had a chance recently to snag one for $5, but had to pass on it because at the time I didn't have anywhere to put it. You had best have something very sturdy to put the monitor on. Might be pretty cool to play with. They were something of a big thing in some circles years ago. BTW when I say big, I mean realitively. The CPU wasn't that bad, just the monitor :^) I've only room for one monitor that size at this time, and I'm using it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From karmes at kiva.net Wed Nov 5 21:32:34 1997 From: karmes at kiva.net (karmes@kiva.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: pong Message-ID: <34613A52.48F7@kiva.net> I came across your email address when I was trying to find some information on pong. I was actually looking for what a current price maybe if you wanted to sell an Atari Pong home game. If you know where I may be able to find this informatin or you know it yourself, I would be very appreciative if you could share it with me. Thanks Kristi From mark at cyberlightstudios.com Wed Nov 5 22:32:55 1997 From: mark at cyberlightstudios.com (Mark Tosiello) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Manuals Message-ID: <01BCEA43.29BEA680.mark@cyberlightstudios.com> Hi, I am a collector and classic enthusiast. I'm looking for copies of the original operating manuals for the following computers: Amiga 1000 Apple ][ plus Apple //e Apple //e Platinum Commodore 64 Apple DuoDisk Apple Disk II I also need original boot and os disks for these computers. If you have such materials, and they are in good-excellent condition, please email me at: mark@cyberlightstudios.com, and we can work out a price. I'd be very anxious to obtain these documents, particularly the Apple specific manuals. Thanks again, Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first---Invent the Universe ---Dr. Carl E. Sagan From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Nov 6 01:37:39 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: pong References: <34613A52.48F7@kiva.net> Message-ID: <346173C3.6A56@ndirect.co.uk> karmes@kiva.net wrote: > > I came across your email address when I was trying to find some > information on pong. I was actually looking for what a current price > maybe if you wanted to sell an Atari Pong home game. If you know where > I may be able to find this informatin or you know it yourself, I would > be very appreciative if you could share it with me. > > Thanks > Kristi I have no idea BUT if you find out please let me know and if you have one for sale I would be interested in buying it OR have a look in my FOR SALE ITEMS in my site: I have all sort of thing s there! Thanks enrico -- ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website: ============================================================ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Nov 6 04:53:30 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Amiga 1000 (was:My Recent find) In-Reply-To: <199711030514.AAA28065@ns.newwave.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Bruce James wrote: > At 04:48 AM 11/1/97 -0500, you wrote: > > > >On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Bruce James wrote: > > > >> and my latest find a Amiga 1000 with 1080 moniter and 512k memory > >> anyone have more information on expansion of this computer?? > > > >I used an Amiga 1000 as my primary computer for six years. Beautiful > >machine. The darling of my collection. :) > > Hi thanks Doug for the reply > I am mostly looking for ways of adding more memory and a hard drive.. Yeah, both are definitely Good Things if you want to run serious applications on that machine. But there's plenty of software that'll run on a 512K A1000 with floppies only. > picked up a second 3 1/2 external drive and rs1200 modem. > I need a good terminal program and Word Processer.. The second floppy drive is important. Using the shell with an unexpanded A1000 and only one disk drive can be maddening. Too many "Please insert volume ARGH! in any drive" requestors. :) I've actually got a 5.25" disk drive for it now, too. It can read C= 1541 disks into a .dsk file for emulators in about 12 seconds, which is pretty cool. And Apple ][ disks in about 17 seconds (must be lamer programming). Too bad I don't have anything to WRITE to those formats, though I suspect writing to a 1541 format wouldn't work. There were a lot of old terminal programs that worked well on the A1000. The one I still use occasionally on that machine is NComm (I don't remember the version). It's probably still available via FTP, but I can send you the archive if you like. If you don't have a terminal program already, though, it can lead to a chicken-and-egg problem (though of course we know the egg came first). Unless you're lucky enough to already have CrossDOS or MessyDOS working on your A1000, for using 720K MS-DOS disks. As for word processors... Probably none available via FTP, or on Fish Disks (Fred Fish's Amiga software library from the dark ages). I might be able to scare something up, though. :) > Also can you give me a hint on what software will work like most stuff for > the a-500 or a-2000?? Yes. :) The A500 and A2000 are virtually operationally identical to the A1000. The problem is that most new software requires a newer version of the OS than what the A1000 can normally run. With additional RAM, you can actually load Kickstart 2.x (and possibly 3.x) into memory so if you can find RAM expansion for it, you may not need to install ROMs. I happen to like running my A1000 with Kickstart/Workbench 1.x, for that 'period' feel. I still load up 1.1 sometimes and pull the 'lets see how many cheesy graphics demos I can get running on the screen at the same time' trick. I managed slightly over 100 on my 1MB machine, but Workbench 1.1 GURU'd after I had _closed_ all the windows. Still, not bad for the date. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Nov 6 05:11:39 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Hit the jackpot In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971105020359.006a55e8@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Hello to all > Had a pretty slow week last week only a few finds will later in week. Today > I got a box load of SYM-1's somewere betweeen 15 and 20 of them. That's exceptionally cool. When do you start taking orders? :) > I also got something called a IVS TRUMPCARD 500 by Interactive Video System > and have no idea what it is, any help out there ? Does it have a female 86-pin edge connector on it? From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Nov 6 02:22:43 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Vic-20 was Re: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199711061327.IAA25495@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Nov 97 at 10:16, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Tim D. Hotze Wrote: > >>Congradulations on getting your VIC-20, and I would like to know about it's > >>specs. > > Tim, > I got the VIC dug back up again. So let me see what I can come up with for > specs from the manual. Not much, it's about the most pathetic list of > specs I've seen, so I'll add comments. > > Video display is 23 rows x 22 columns > > On the back: > Expansion Port (for cartridges) > Most carts were games, some were memory expansion, others were l > languages, or applications software. I had a five slot board that > plugged in here and then allowed you to plug in five cartridges. You > could then select the cartridge you wanted with a rotary switch. > 5-pin Video port (For connection to TV) > Serial Port (For special accessories like printer, disk drive, etc.) > Note, this is a 6-pin DIN plug, nothing like a modern serial port. It > is possible to build an X-1541 cable that allows a 1541 drive to be > connected to a PC's parallel port. The VIC can use either a 1540 or a > 1541 disk drive. Not sure on printers, I had a funky little plotter > that used miniature ball point pens (4 colour). > Cassette Port (tape cassette goes here) > The VIC and C-64 use a proprietary cassette interface, in order to > connect a casstte drive to it you need one of their two models. It > took > about 5 minutes to load an 8k program. > User Port (for special accessories) > This is a lot like the Cassette Port connector. It could be used for > stuff like a modem or RS-232 connector. > > Right side: > Game Port (For Joystick and other game control devices) > On/Off switch > Power Cord Socket > > The keyboard is the same as the C-64, the colours are different with the > case being a whitish colour. > > Zane The Vic20 was a great machine for it's time, at a price that allowed a whole generation access to computers. Actually there were several models ,one off-white and another beige. Some had a two pin PS connection and later ones the same as the C64. Even Byte magazine ran a couple of series of hardware hack upgrades. There's a bunch of stuff available on the inet. One of the best is the " Official" Vic20 FAQ by Ward Shrake, a beautiful, one could almost say, eulogy, more than faq. If one can be found the Vic20 "Programmers Reference Guide" has a full fold-out schematic. The FAQ and links as well as emulators, can be found at http://home1.gte.net/salzman ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From engine at chac.org Thu Nov 6 09:52:49 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971106074910.00ef5550@pop.batnet.com> At 17:44 11/5/97 -0800, you wrote: >Bill Yakowenko wrote: >> Hey all. I think its about time I de-lurk and introduce myself. >>.... >> We had a couple SwTPC 6800 systems in my high school way back when, >> and I'd love to see one again (or own one!). > >Hi Bill, welcome to the list! BTW, what is SSB stuff? I think of SSB as >Single-Side Band.... Smoke Signal Broadcasting, SS50-bus micros -- SS50 was like oversize Molex. I also wanted to say that, Bill, that was very elegant of you; I can't remember having seen a properly executed in years. The Net today has no time for the little graces. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From prp at hf.intel.com Thu Nov 6 11:35:06 1997 From: prp at hf.intel.com (Paul Pierce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:26 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: <199711060802.AAA29758@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3461FFCA.680F@hf.intel.com> > From: Bill Yakowenko >... > After signing up for the Classic Computer Rescue Squad, I started > thinking, if a big old machine actually needed a rescue, what > would we do? I mean, maybe we should collect info on how big > these old things are, in terms of floor-space, tonnage, time to > dismantle, and so on. Then, when a rescue call comes in, we > could maybe decide if we can feasibly deal with it, and if anyone > actually wants the thing. If only three guys show up to dismantle > 200 tons of vacuum tubes, it isn't gonna happen on-schedule. And > it's one thing to keep a mini in a corner, but not all of us can > arrange space for, say, a 360. So there are legitimate (if sad) > reasons that we might have to pass up a find. There are a small number of serious collectors and at least one museum who will make space for a big machine, depending on what it is. Any vacuum tube machine and most discrete transistor machines are a no-brainer, someone will want them. They are extremely rare and will in essentially all cases have been dismantled already. More recent machines may or may not be worth saving. In all cases with a big installation make sure there will be a home for it before carrying through with a rescue. Except for a few enormous installations like SAGE or Harvest, all gone now, a large mainframe will consist of (or can be taken apart into) no more than 10 large units each of which should fit in a medium size freight elevator. (Cray's are an exception, the CPU won't come apart.) There will also be a larger number of smaller peripherals such as disk drives, tape drives, console, printer, maybe card machines. One or two people can disassemble and pack a modern (e.g. IBM 370 series) air cooled mainframe in one (long) day. Other cases could take longer but generally not more than a week. More people is not necessarily a good thing. Some machines will benefit from specialized help from the manufacturer or a rigger or specialty moving crew. Always save all the documentation and software you can get. Paul From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 6 11:45:26 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <346120F1.5A65E9DE@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Nov 5, 97 05:44:17 pm Message-ID: <9711061745.AA21585@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 877 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971106/2bffe1d9/attachment.ksh From bjorn at ktb.net Thu Nov 6 12:03:50 1997 From: bjorn at ktb.net (Bjorn T. Eng) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: apollo computers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey! I know Apollos! :) The first system-admin task I had (1984) was to admin a network of Apollo workstations we used for CAD. As others have mentioned, The Apollo OS (Aegis) is not Unix, but it's pretty similar to a user. (Though not to an admin...) The windowing system Apollo used was NOT X-windows, though the later machines had X, I suppose. They were nice machines for their day and they were the only platform at the time for "MENTOR Graphics" Chip and circuit board design tools. Unfortunately Mentor had a nasty habit of burning the hardware bridges behind their customers. Every significant new release would require the latest hardware and would not run on the old machines! So lots of Apollos wound up in dumpsters. Apollo also had the SONY-betamax, Apple-mac disease... (We're the best, so we'll make everything proprietary and make a fortune... yeah right! ;) Bjorn Eng On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >some guy i bought a mac video card from said he had something called an > >apollo workstation. he said it was a 68020/68030 with a 19 inch monitor, can > >run *nix, and would only want ~$50 for it. anyone heard of this machine or > >know anything about it? he said some local colleges used the machines for > >various duties but are obsolete now. > From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Nov 6 12:13:38 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <19971106181845.AAA9257@hotze> Does anyone have any systems that they could sell me? Anything... all I've got is an XT that dosn't work. ---------- From: Tim Shoppa To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Date: Thursday, November 06, 1997 8:45 PM > > After signing up for the Classic Computer Rescue Squad, I started > > thinking, if a big old machine actually needed a rescue, what > > would we do? I mean, maybe we should collect info on how big > > these old things are, in terms of floor-space, tonnage, time to > > dismantle, and so on. My recommendation is to get a truck with a lift-gate, especially if you don't have real loading docks at each end of the journey. A substantial amount of time and effort is saved if you can simply move entire racks onto the truck rather than having to unwire all the boxes and remove them from each rack. A liftgate that can handle the two- or three-bay racks is even better. I've made many rescues without liftgates, and usually I regret it! Moving 5000+ lbs of stuff with only a heavy-duty applicance dolly and a ramp wears you out quite quickly! Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 6 12:44:12 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <19971106181845.AAA9257@hotze> from "Hotze" at Nov 6, 97 09:13:38 pm Message-ID: <9711061844.AA04238@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 295 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971106/7bdb9d9d/attachment.ksh From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Nov 6 12:53:19 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <19971106185827.AAA14581@hotze> Oh yes, Tim (This could be a Tim-Tim conversation type thing!!!), that would be very nice. Well let's see, I'd have to trade in the Honda for a truck, ship it back to the US from Bahrain, drive down, and then come back. Not my idea of fun. (Sorry, I didn't mean to sound hostile) I've found 30 IBM 400 terminals for $1 a piece, in Western Massachusetts, but no mainframe. Anyway, I need systems, not parts (I need systems for the parts :-) .) But if I get the systems, I'll get the parts. I can even use the most "common" classics, I have a US postal address. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: Tim Shoppa To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Date: Thursday, November 06, 1997 9:44 PM > Does anyone have any systems that they could sell me? Anything... all I've > got is an XT that dosn't work. Sure. Come up here with a lift-gate truck and I'll sell you all the Data General Novas, 14" disk drives, and 1/2" 9-track tape drives that you could want. Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 6 14:40:08 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <19971106185827.AAA14581@hotze> from "Hotze" at Nov 6, 97 09:53:19 pm Message-ID: <9711062040.AA15368@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 587 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971106/172395fe/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Nov 6 15:06:01 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711062040.AA15368@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Of course, because DG Novae haven't been featured in the _LA Times_ > or the _Chicago Tribune_, nobody wants them. The instant they are > featured, all sorts of lusers will start crawling out and insisting > they *need* a Nova, price is no object, just like happened with my > Altair's, IMSAI's, and Apple I's. So tell us Tim, just how many Apple I's *do* you have buried up there??? B^} ...ever find that #2 9 track reel? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From engine at chac.org Thu Nov 6 15:12:44 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971106131230.00f99100@pop.batnet.com> At 12:40 11/6/97 -0800, you wrote: >....all sorts of lusers will start crawling out and insisting >they *need* a Nova, price is no object, just like happened with my >Altair's, IMSAI's, and Apple I's. Apple I's, like, _plural_?? __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Nov 6 15:37:42 1997 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971106131230.00f99100@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: You mean WOZ doesn't own all of the existing Apple ones in existance? He bought one out from under me a couple of years ago. I had offered $3500 for it and he dropped a $15K bid on the table which I couldn't match. It was just a hobby mind you. You can visit the Apple 1 that was almost mine at DeAnza College in Cupertino. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Kip Crosby wrote: > At 12:40 11/6/97 -0800, you wrote: > >....all sorts of lusers will start crawling out and insisting > >they *need* a Nova, price is no object, just like happened with my > >Altair's, IMSAI's, and Apple I's. > > Apple I's, like, _plural_?? > > __________________________________________ > Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html > Computer History Association of California > > > From dastar at wco.com Thu Nov 6 16:03:12 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711062040.AA15368@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Of course, because DG Novae haven't been featured in the _LA Times_ > or the _Chicago Tribune_, nobody wants them. The instant they are > featured, all sorts of lusers will start crawling out and insisting > they *need* a Nova, price is no object, just like happened with my > Altair's, IMSAI's, and Apple I's. The Nova will never be featured in the newspapers because it is not a socially significant computer. In the great scheme of things, it is but one of many. Drop the rant already. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 6 16:14:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Nov 6, 97 02:03:12 pm Message-ID: <9711062214.AA24274@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 365 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971106/b6606864/attachment.ksh From RWood54741 at worldnet.att.net Thu Nov 6 16:27:55 1997 From: RWood54741 at worldnet.att.net (RWood54741@worldnet.att.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: (no subject) References: <9711062214.AA24274@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <3462446B.4746@worldnet.att.net> Does anyone know where I can buy a Nova? Larry Luser From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 6 17:07:21 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711062307.AA12075@world.std.com> <> The Nova will never be featured in the newspapers because it is not a <> socially significant computer. No more (or less) so than PDP-11s that it competed against. are hardly ever noted here. Most often they are simple minimum systems featuring the makers CPU or chip sets. Some of note are the EVK68, Motorola 6800D1, 6800D2, National SC/MP, Cosmac ELF<1802>, INTEL SDK80<8080>, SDK85<8085> and SDK88<8088>, IMSAI IMP48<8035>, Technico Super Starter, are samples of what I mean. Most of these were not expandable to full systems and were really aimed at the hobbiest/engineer to show off the chips or provide a working example to build off of. Others like the IMP-48 were complete systems intended for control system use or for one up embedded applications or quick prototypes. If I could say one thing about all of the arguments... Been there, done that! I even have a few of the t-shirts that are still not rags yet. How many were at PCC'76 on the boardwalk? Allison From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Nov 6 17:10:12 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: RSX-11M and a PDP-11/73 Message-ID: I got both. The 73 runs, but I have no idea what to do with RSX11M. Can anyone help me out? It may not be a full RSX system. It's version 4.1 From Zeus334 at aol.com Thu Nov 6 17:06:16 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: classic computer manuals Message-ID: I have the Commodore 64C manuals, and some disks. I also have the Commodore 64 Programmers' guide. I could probably get some manuals and disks for an Apple II, as well. I am not in the habit of shipping, though. __________________________________________________________ Original Message: Hi, I am a collector and classic enthusiast. I'm looking for copies of the original operating manuals for the following computers: Amiga 1000 Apple ][ plus Apple //e Apple //e Platinum Commodore 64 Apple DuoDisk Apple Disk II I also need original boot and os disks for these computers. If you have such materials, and they are in good-excellent condition, please email me at: mark@cyberlightstudios.com, and we can work out a price. I'd be very anxious to obtain these documents, particularly the Apple specific manuals. Thanks again, Mark From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Nov 6 17:26:45 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: RSX-11M and a PDP-11/73 Message-ID: I got both, but I have no idea of what to do with RSX11M. Anyone care to help? From Zeus334 at aol.com Thu Nov 6 17:33:31 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference Message-ID: <971105172433_968469244@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-05 11:54:09 EST, you write: << Speaking of reference manuals, does anyone have any information / insights into a Visual Technologies Commuter? Manf in 1984, it uses two Intel chips (8086 and 8088) with a plethora of RAM chips not to mention at least four program subroutines. The manufacturer seems to have disowned this particular unit since two people in their tech department have not heard of it. Thanks in advance Sam >> I wonder how many non - PC compatibles have used Intel 8088 or 8086 chips. I have heard of a machine called an "ACT Apricot", which is said to have had voice recognition and a GUI. Could someone tell me about it and others? My reasoning is that there are lots of neat things that could be done on an 8088, but not with a DOS system. From william at ans.net Thu Nov 6 17:44:18 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: <9710058787.AA878781887@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: > He also threw in a card from the CPU, which I think I've mentioned here > before. The technology is 100k series ECL so should have been faster > than Cray 1. (The Cray 1 in the {museum of same town} was 10k series.) > >From the date I'd guess Cray 2 or later. If the chips date from 1992, then it is not from a Cyber 203/205/215 - they date from the late 1970s and early 1980s. After that, CDC supercomputer business turned into ETA, sold a few neato machines, then folded up. The _last_ real Cyber (unlike the repackaged SGIs) was the 180 of the 1980s. CDC, of course, is now out of the big box business. > > You really do not want to do anything with it - CDC made very few of the > > beasts and your memory bank is a real gem of an artifact. > Oh dear - I think I've damaged the motherboard, like, scraped a surface > mount chip off it. Still, nice to have. > > What saddens me is that the machine was broken up. Most do. A junk yard I go to gets a Cray every so often, but they get "demilled". Then there is the story of the ETA supercomputers in New Jersey that were sledgehammered when the JVN supercomputer center closed and they could not find a buyer. > (Apparently they > bought a Cray to replace it - XMP? YMP? What were Cray Making in 1993? The 90 series was out, as well as the newer YMPs (the ones that are not the classic Cray shape). > A trifle modern for this group, I fear...) In my mind, any supercomputer is a classic. Handbuilt over months, every one unique with a personality, very limitted editions... And if anyone knows of a _reasonably_ priced Cray J916, I would like to here from you! William Donzelli william@ans.net From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Nov 6 17:45:24 1997 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Franklin ACE Message-ID: <19971106154524.00e8ed09.in@mail.pressstart.com> If anyone lives in the northern N.J. area and can help this person out, please contact him and copy me. > >I have a number of 5.25 disks that were created on a Franklin. They > >contain the memoirs of my late Uncle. The computer is no longer > >available. How can I access the information on these disks? >>I live in Wyckoff, NJ (Bergen County -about 15 miles from NY). I have >>not a clue what type of software was used. Can they be converted to >>Word, Wordperfect, or Prowrite? The subject of his message was ACE 2200. I have a working ACE 2200, and ACE Writer software, but I prefer not to have him risk his disks in the mail ("the truth and the first Altair are still out there"). This is one of the reasons I collect computers. Again if you can help him copy me too. The address is David Merdler ========================================= Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Museum of Personal Computing Machinery http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum Attend the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! ========================================= From william at ans.net Thu Nov 6 18:10:21 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <199711060149.AA05992@world.std.com> Message-ID: > No! Can you be sure? From the early part of this century thru the 1960s (the time in which information has leaked out or been declassified), military electronics has always been way ahead of what the industry, or most of it, saw. For example, I can look at a old Mk 13 gunlaying radar, built for the U.S. Navy during the early 1940s. What this thing could do was way ahead of what most engineers would think the cutting edge could do. Most would simply dismiss the thing as fantasy. Later electronics, like spread spectrum communications (incidently, invented by the most unlikely of people) would have been regarded as a joke when the military was playing with it in the 1950s. The whole SAGE system of the 1950-60s also was "beyond belief" to "Joe E. Engineer". Why should anyone believe that the 1980s were any different? > the military had the best available technology of the time and only for > applications that needed it. They develop the best stuff. > Actually much of military technology was super rugged and not > always the most modern. The computer(s) for F16 fly by wire are not very > exotic save for they are absolutely fault tolerent, after all an error > there can kill the pilot and destroy the aircraft at the maximum or cause a > mission abort at the minimum. Yes, for mission/life critical applications, they tend to stick with good old designs. > I say this as in the 71-72 time frame I had a friend that was a computer > hacker and was able to get the then surplus Minuteman missle computers. > Compared to the PDP-8I we both knew it was terrible! All transistor, no > core (it used a 65kw disk for all storage). The Minuteman missle computers were not the cutting edge and not very secret. After all, they did end up on the surplus market without requiring demilitarization. Using a computer for Navigation was, to put it plainly, nothing new. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Nov 6 18:18:31 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: RSX-11M and a PDP-11/73 In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 6, 97 05:10:12 pm Message-ID: <199711070018.QAA24104@fraser> > I got both. The 73 runs, but I have no idea what to do with RSX11M. > Can anyone help me out? It may not be a full RSX system. It's version > 4.1 I have a full set of RSX 11 M manuals if that would be of any help. I could copy the "Intro" guide (~75 pages). My version is 4.3. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 6 18:35:45 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: RSX-11M and a PDP-11/73 In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 6, 97 05:10:12 pm Message-ID: <9711070035.AA13692@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 277 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971106/817efa23/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 6 18:46:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711062307.AA12075@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 6, 97 06:07:21 pm Message-ID: <9711070046.AA17443@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 993 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971106/6c5d91e4/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Nov 6 18:43:20 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: RSX-11M and a PDP-11/73 In-Reply-To: <9711070035.AA13692@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > What's it saying when it starts up? Does it ask you for username/password, > are you sitting at the MCR prompt (">")? > Sitting at MCR. Lucky, huh? I think it logs me in as 200,200 because it says set /uic=[200,200] before it gives me the prompt but I can so set /uic=[1,2] so I can get admin. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 6 19:00:44 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: RSX-11M and a PDP-11/73 In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 6, 97 06:43:20 pm Message-ID: <9711070100.AA14418@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 691 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971106/abceb123/attachment.ksh From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Thu Nov 6 19:21:56 1997 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: CP/M for Osborne-1 Message-ID: I picked up an Osborne-1 last night, but no software. Is anyone willing to cut me a copy of some 5 1/4" CP/M operating system and utility disks? I'd gladly replace the disks supplied... Thanks in advance, -- Tony Eros Internet Consultant - Financial/Pharma Services Practice Digital Equipment Corporation From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 6 20:00:00 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <199711070200.AA19228@world.std.com> At 21:00 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote: >Maybe that's why I have an intel Intellec MDS 8080 development system >that is circa 1976 manufacture and of vastly superior construction than >the Altair. Damn right, pop a case on an Intellec and you'll just sigh. They're like little minis inside. You know what else is just as nice the same way? The Tektronix boxes built around the LSI-11.... It's like having a '56 or '57 Mercedes. The whole world knows how sexy and pricey a 300SL is, be it the Gullwing or the roadster; but it takes a _real_ connoisseur to appreciate, even to recognize! the same year's 300SC. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From william at ans.net Thu Nov 6 22:20:11 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: apollo computers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The HP Apollos can run DomainOS, HP-UX (up to 9.x I think), and one fo the > > free BSD kernels. Make sure it comes with an OS, unless you want to have > > some fun in tracking down an OS for it. If someone could point me towards DomainOS for the 10000, I would be very happy. William Donzelli william@ans.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Nov 6 22:25:23 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: CP/M for Osborne-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I picked up an Osborne-1 last night, but no software. Is anyone willing to >cut me a copy of some 5 1/4" CP/M operating system and utility disks? You'll want to ensure you get the correct ones. There are at least two different versions one for 40 columns, and another for 80 columns. I'm pretty sure that the 40 column systems can't be booted with 80 column disks. BTW I'm refering to the number of columns on the display. I've got a old 40 column system, but as far as I can tell the boot floppy and one or two others are bad. I say this because I was able to read at least one of them with my Commodore 128 running CP/M. I couldn't read the boot disk. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 6 22:31:08 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711070431.AA13971@world.std.com> <>Maybe that's why I have an intel Intellec MDS 8080 development system What's significant is it was one of several used by the terminals and printers engineering at DEC to develope the VT100! Message-ID: > In 1971 is was nothing new but it's design was in the early 60s where is > was state of the art. State of the art for avionics and the electronics industry in general, yes. There is always, however, one step beyond that. > The fact that it declassified and sold as junk > ten years later shows how fast things moved in that ten year span. Yes, I suppose, but it also shows that the computers were not the real cutting edge, like crypto and countermeasures gear. If it were the absolute best, cutting edge technology, it would have been shredded (literally - I have seen the end results). William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 6 23:09:07 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <199711070509.AA07003@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Not a problem. I can get you a Nova 4 CPU+chassis, a DG terminal, a > 6045 14" disk drive, controller, and pack, and a 9-track tape drive, > all hooked together and running DG RDOS. How much space would a system like this take, and what kind of power is required to feed it? :) > Of course, because DG Novae haven't been featured in the _LA Times_ > or the _Chicago Tribune_, nobody wants them. The instant they are > featured, all sorts of lusers will start crawling out and insisting > they *need* a Nova, price is no object, just like happened with my > Altair's, IMSAI's, and Apple I's. I'd like a Nova, but I've so far not been courageous enough to think seriously about moving one from Vancouver to Montreal. :) I know nothing about minis. My entire collection consists of (generally very common) micros, and I'd almost be afraid to let a mini in the house in case something goes wrong. (My conscience does not handle damaging classic computer equipment well.) > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From william at ans.net Fri Nov 7 06:42:13 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <199711070509.AA07003@world.std.com> Message-ID: > The MMC had the disk completely wiped and > even the timing tracks were gone. Standard demilling. > That's the point. The crypto and contermeasures stuff it was not the > parts but the general designs that had to be hid. No, it was the parts as well. Digital signal processors have been used in countermeasure receivers (or the front ends of the jammers) for years. I have never seen the digital innards of Cold War jammers, but the radio and radar parts that I have seen have been amazing - very small oil cooled tubes capable of very high outputs over a great frequency range. For some reason, the tubes have been declassified for some time. And yes, the tubes were advanced beyond what an engineer could purchase from RCA or Eimac at the time. > Generally the loss is that we didn't get to see how Purple or Enigma > worked. Stuff about Purple is finally being declassified. As for Enigma, one could just look up the German patent to get the general idea (they really are simple machines in concept). > The radar display system was linked to the Sage system. There has been some debate if the SAGE system was actually the first real computer network. William Donzelli william@ans.net From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Nov 7 06:02:33 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <19971107121156.AAA26143@hotze> Yeah, I'm mostly interested in collecting micros, but I forget how big minis are. But if anyone has anything, that would be great. And how much does a Nova weigh? A DG? The whole package? TIA, Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: Doug Spence To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 1:26 PM On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Not a problem. I can get you a Nova 4 CPU+chassis, a DG terminal, a > 6045 14" disk drive, controller, and pack, and a 9-track tape drive, > all hooked together and running DG RDOS. How much space would a system like this take, and what kind of power is required to feed it? :) > Of course, because DG Novae haven't been featured in the _LA Times_ > or the _Chicago Tribune_, nobody wants them. The instant they are > featured, all sorts of lusers will start crawling out and insisting > they *need* a Nova, price is no object, just like happened with my > Altair's, IMSAI's, and Apple I's. I'd like a Nova, but I've so far not been courageous enough to think seriously about moving one from Vancouver to Montreal. :) I know nothing about minis. My entire collection consists of (generally very common) micros, and I'd almost be afraid to let a mini in the house in case something goes wrong. (My conscience does not handle damaging classic computer equipment well.) > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 7 08:20:58 1997 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971107082058.00a36d80@pc> On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Of course, because DG Novae haven't been featured in the _LA Times_ > or the _Chicago Tribune_, nobody wants them. The instant they are > featured, all sorts of lusers will start crawling out and insisting > they *need* a Nova, price is no object, just like happened with my > Altair's, IMSAI's, and Apple I's. Oh, and Tim will be very sad on that day indeed, and in his generous nature will open up the warehouse to all those who've spotted his old post on this mailing list, and will not raise the price from "take them away" to $10,000 each. :-) - John From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 7 09:19:28 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711071519.AA22043@world.std.com> I 'd like to commend and thank Matt Pritchard for shipping the Hard Drive Bibles. I know he went to a lot of trouble to purchase, pack and ship several heavy volumes...and asked no profit for himself. If he ever needs a favor, I hope everyone will bend over backwards to help him! Thanks, Mr. Pritchard, manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 7 09:01:05 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference Message-ID: <199711071534.HAA17997@mx3.u.washington.edu> I think I have one, but without the disks. Is this OK? -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Manney Date: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 7:22 AM Subject: PC/AT reference > Not yet a classic, but does anyone have a {spare} copy of the "Technical >Reference Personal Computer AT"? This is the tech ref guide for the original >IBM PC/AT, published by IBM (I'm guessing in a gray fabric binder). > > TIA! > >Rich Cini/WUGNET > > Charter ClubWin! Member > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > > > > > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 7 09:53:24 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Nov 7, 97 05:26:27 am Message-ID: <9711071553.AA26876@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 969 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971107/22fede9e/attachment.ksh From engine at chac.org Fri Nov 7 10:03:22 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971107080317.00fb3a30@pop.batnet.com> At 15:02 11/7/97 +0300, you wrote: >Yeah, I'm mostly interested in collecting micros, but I forget how big >minis are.... They vary. There are rack-mount minis, like an HP 2115 or some of the smaller DG's, that you can pick up singlehanded, although you won't love yourself for it. On the other end, our SDS 930 -- 14 racks, 5.5 tons probably counting spares and docs -- is just the size that some people, including me, call it a small mainframe, and some call it a mini. A PDP-1, to take another example, is absolutely a mini, but if you add a Fastrand (drum) and a goodly squad of tape drives, you have a fairly imposing computer. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Nov 7 10:12:21 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Software for Heathkit H-11/11a? Message-ID: I had an Heathkit H-11a computer drop into my lap (somewhat literally) last night, and it got me to thinking... It's probably time to try to get one of these things running in its original configuration (vs. the Dec cards in the Heath chassis config.), so it looks like I need to track down some copies of the original Heath (mutated Dec) software for the thing... (i.e. HT-11, etc...) I've got most of the paper tapes for the H-11 so I think I'm ok there, and I've got a H-27 disk sub-system for the thing, so now I seek the software on disk. Anyone out there have spares or a functional unit that can replicate??? And... Does anyone remember the specific differences between the H-11 and H11a? (if any aside from the obvious addition of a third switch on the front panel?) (still seeking that elusive H-10 tho...) Thanks! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at wco.com Fri Nov 7 10:36:42 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711070046.AA17443@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Computers each and every have significance, some because of new concepts, > > new markets or in a few cases the scams and swindles behind them! There > > were many unremarkable computers made and many while noteable were really > > junk! > > Absolutely true. I do hope that the "classiccmp" mailing list doesn't > go in the direction that Sam suggests, i.e. limiting discussion to > computers considered "collectible" in the popular press. Now, when the fuck did I say that? Is there any one single place in my previous message where I either explicitly or even implicitly suggested what you are stating? If so, please do point it out. Otherwise, pull your head from out of your ass, Tim. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Nov 7 09:48:31 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: References: <9711070046.AA17443@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971107104831.009fa250@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Sam Ismail said: >Now, when the f**k did I say that? [snip] >Otherwise, pull your head from out of your a**, Tim. [snip] Geez, Sam! Take a [Choose One] (Valium / Prozac), wouldya??? Tho Tim may have talked out of turn (I'm not judging either way), does it really warrant talk of this nature? And if it does, could you keep the _extreme_ profanity to private e-mail? I'm no saint myself, but others may become highly offended with this type of abusive crap... Just MHO, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From dastar at wco.com Fri Nov 7 10:49:11 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971107082058.00a36d80@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, John Foust wrote: > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Of course, because DG Novae haven't been featured in the _LA Times_ > > or the _Chicago Tribune_, nobody wants them. The instant they are > > featured, all sorts of lusers will start crawling out and insisting > > they *need* a Nova, price is no object, just like happened with my > > Altair's, IMSAI's, and Apple I's. > > Oh, and Tim will be very sad on that day indeed, and in his generous > nature will open up the warehouse to all those who've spotted his > old post on this mailing list, and will not raise the price from > "take them away" to $10,000 each. :-) No of course not. In fact he'll be just as generous with them as he is with his *many* IMSAI's, Altari's and Apple I's. Heck, he basically uses those as stocking stuffers. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 7 11:10:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Nov 7, 97 08:36:42 am Message-ID: <9711071710.AA16434@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 511 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971107/63901809/attachment.ksh From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Nov 7 11:04:18 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <19971107171036.AAA15848@hotze> Sam, that was very uncalled for. Any problems that you have could have been solved in a gentlemanly manner, ceretainly witout resulting to this level of language! ---------- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 6:48 PM ;-) Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Sam Ismail said: >Now, when the f**k did I say that? [snip] >Otherwise, pull your head from out of your a**, Tim. [snip] Geez, Sam! Take a [Choose One] (Valium / Prozac), wouldya??? Tho Tim may have talked out of turn (I'm not judging either way), does it really warrant talk of this nature? And if it does, could you keep the _extreme_ profanity to private e-mail? I'm no saint myself, but others may become highly offended with this type of abusive crap... Just MHO, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Nov 7 11:34:19 1997 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:27 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Challanger series In-Reply-To: <19971107171036.AAA15848@hotze> Message-ID: Forgive me as I have just joined the list but it seems that most of the computer collections noted online have missed my favorite machine. My first machine was an Ohio Scientific C2-4p. I do think my most efficient programming was done in that 4K of RAM. I no longer have the original but do have a couple of it's brothers. The last of the series was painted white and had introduced color. To complete my collection I'd love to find either a C4 or C8 machine complete with Disk subsystem and software. I refuse to believe that I've got the only ones left. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Nov 7 11:38:24 1997 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Challenger series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoops.... Try Challenger ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, George Rachor wrote: > Forgive me as I have just joined the list but it seems that most of the > computer collections noted online have missed my favorite machine. > > My first machine was an Ohio Scientific C2-4p. I do think my most > efficient programming was done in that 4K of RAM. > > I no longer have the original but do have a couple of it's brothers. The > last of the series was painted white and had introduced color. To > complete my collection I'd love to find either a C4 or C8 machine complete > with Disk subsystem and software. I refuse to believe that I've got the > only ones left. > > George Rachor > > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon > > From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 7 11:29:44 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: RDWhatever floppies. Message-ID: WHat kind of floppies does an RD-53 (? Is that it?) expect? I've dropped in 360s and 1.2Ms, but all it does when I tell it format is pull the head in and out, in and out, like bad sector error. It this like RX02s where they need some wierd format before they work? BTW, I tried imaging the harddisk already, but my XT doesn't like the drive for some reason. These are just standard MFM drives, right? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 7 11:46:15 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: RDWhatever floppies. In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 7, 97 11:29:44 am Message-ID: <9711071746.AA26034@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1746 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971107/ecd30d80/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 7 12:39:39 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: RDWhatever floppies. In-Reply-To: <9711071746.AA26034@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I'm going to make a guess that you're talking about DEC RX33 (5.25" > half-height drives) or DEC RX50 drives (two 5.25" drives in a full-height > 5.25" form factor) hooked to a RQDX3 controller. If you can specify > that you're talking about one or the other, you'll get more specific > answers :-) > It's RX50. Sorry. > > Um, what is the "it" you are telling to do the format? RT-11? VMS? > RSX-11? What's the command you're issuing? What error message are > you getting? > RSX-11. This machine appears to have been a graphics workstation, but it has 8 serial ports, so I'm not sure. It has a thingie called USE that lets you do other stuff, like read DOS floppies (Haven't tried that yet). Help says if I say "USE FORMAT" it formats disks. I drop in a disk, say "USE FORMAT" and it asks for a device and goes. It says "Checking bad blocks", and starts grinding away. > > A RQDX3 is incapable of formatting RX50 floppies, but it is capable > of formatting RX33's. RX33's have the same format as PC-clone 1.2 Meg > "high-density" floppies. RX50's can be bought from DEC (1-800-DIGITAL) > or you can format high-quality double-density media on a PC-clone HD > drive (or a DEC Rainbow...) Note that you cannot reliably use HD media > in a RX50; you need DD media. > Okay! PUTR does that! And I have a copy! (Somewhere around here...) > > Yeah, they're standard MFM drives, but the formatting on them isn't compatible > with most PC-clone hard disk controllers. If you tell us what operating > system you want to do a backup from, and what removable media devices > you have on your PDP-11, I'm sure we can find some way for you to back > up your RD53. > The XT runs DOS. IBM dos 3.3, to be exact. I was gonna use Norton DIskedit, and make an image of the harddisk and save it on the Novell server. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 7 13:34:50 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: RDWhatever floppies. In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 7, 97 12:39:39 pm Message-ID: <9711071934.AA26790@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1824 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971107/3616f48b/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 7 13:46:05 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Okay, now what? In-Reply-To: <9711071934.AA26790@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Now I can format and use RX50s. (PUTR makes them, I have a bunch of SSDD disks) and I can mount them. How do I transfer RSX-11 from them so as to boot it with another diskless 11/83 and build a bootable harddisk? I am putting in an ST-251. The /83 was cannabalized, and I'm rebuilding it for a discounted price (The owner will let me have it cheaper if I fix it up). It needs an OS, it ran RSX-11, but the heads crashed upon delivery (You can hear stuff bouncing around inside the drive). Do, I'll need to boot from floppies, Format the 251, transfer the system to it, and there. How do I tell PIP (Or whatever I should use) to make a bootable disk? From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Fri Nov 7 14:06:37 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711072006.AA19154@maddog.swec.com> On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:03:12 -0800 (PST), we heard Mr. Ismail utter: > The Nova will never be featured in the newspapers because it is not a > socially significant computer. Two words, one of which is not printable, but the lead-in is "Bull". The Nova was one of the early minicomputers which came to be used by schools in the early '70s. The other one, and slightly earlier in origin, was the PDP-8. The pdp11 post-dates these by some time. The Nova was a seminal machine even if it was a "widened/en- hanced" PDP-8. One of the founders of Apple, who lots of those here hold in very high esteem, was captivated enough by the Nova to keep a picture of one tacked to his bedroom wall. (Kids, sheesh! :-) ) > In the great scheme of things, it is but one of many. So are lots of things, including many of the machines manu- factured in the last two decades. Like the TRS-80, the Apple II, the Commodore , the ubiquitous PeeCee, and, yes, even the revered IMSAI. > Drop the rant already. Yes. Please do. There's more to life than microprocessors and tiny boxes. Of course, I may have been trolled here, but if that's the case I'll learn to deal with it. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Fri Nov 7 14:13:50 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips Message-ID: <199711072013.AA19168@maddog.swec.com> On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:10:21 -0500 (EST), Mr. Donzelli was heard to say: > [...] military electronics has always been way ahead of what the > industry [...] like spread spectrum communications (incidently, > invented by the most unlikely of people) [...] Thank you! My faith has been restored. How many can name the individual in question? Hint: The name appeared in a fairly recent "Invention & Technology" issue. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 7 15:02:52 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Okay, now what? In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 7, 97 01:46:05 pm Message-ID: <9711072102.AA24906@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 755 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971107/0a8b8275/attachment.ksh From info at msnyc.org Fri Nov 7 15:31:10 1997 From: info at msnyc.org (Janet Paganelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: STuff Message-ID: <3463889E.68AC@msnyc.org> I have a bunch of wyse 60 terminals, a couple of 386's, an old printer and various boards etc. Anyone interested. "Janet Paganelli" From william at ans.net Fri Nov 7 16:05:00 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Help Identifying RAM Chips In-Reply-To: <199711072013.AA19168@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: > > [...] military electronics has always been way ahead of what the > > industry [...] like spread spectrum communications (incidently, > > invented by the most unlikely of people) [...] > > Thank you! My faith has been restored. > > How many can name the individual in question? Hint: The name > appeared in a fairly recent "Invention & Technology" issue. Should I offer an IBM 7855 modem as a prize (winner pays shipping)? Yes, it is more of the NSFnet stuff. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Nov 7 16:29:23 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711072006.AA19154@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: > > The Nova will never be featured in the newspapers because it is not a > > socially significant computer. > > Two words, one of which is not printable, but the lead-in is > "Bull". I think the answer may be in the middle somewhere. I would not put the Nova (or Eclipse) in the top ten list of influential computers, but I would not place it far off. If anything, they created a great rivallry that fueled DECs growth. > There's more to life than microprocessors and tiny boxes. Well yes, even though that world is hidden from everyday view. The big iron touches everyone these days in some way or another - AOL is not just a roomful of micros, rather they probably have more big iron than anyone but Uncle Sam - yet look at how many people use the service. In the past, it was just the same, different application - everyone was processed by hundreds of mainframe computers. > Of course, I may have been trolled here, but if that's the case > I'll learn to deal with it. Yes, but some things need saying. History often gets trashed if you do not take in the big picture. Question (maybe a test, but what the hell): What social impact did the IBM-RT have? William Donzelli william@ans.net From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 7 16:26:19 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711072006.AA19154@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > The Nova was a seminal machine even if it was a "widened/en- > hanced" PDP-8. One of the founders of Apple, who lots of those > here hold in very high esteem, was captivated enough by the Nova > to keep a picture of one tacked to his bedroom wall. (Kids, > sheesh! :-) ) > Ehehe... I did that with a PDP-11/20 picture. It lasted about a week until my parents demanded I take it down. And you two stop arguing. You're acting like... children... (Oh god, I *NEVER* thought I'd hear that coming from *ME!*) From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 7 16:29:47 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Okay, now what? In-Reply-To: <9711072102.AA24906@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Far easier than doing this on floppy is to do it on magtape. Is this > an option at all? I would prefer not to tell you that you'll have > to back up your hard disk using hundreds of 5.25" floppies... Hmm... Not really. I have a drive, but no controller. Maybe with TU58s? I have one of those, in the nice tabletop box... It would be nice to have a minimal system on floppies, though... Then I could get a copy to the emulator... > Making a bootable RX50 floppy is something I have no experience at. > I know how to use VMR to make bootable magtapes, though (hint, hint.) > > If you don't have access to a magtape drive, do you have a way for > putting both hard drives on the same machine? Maybe, there's two ports... DO I just plug in the second drive in the port 2 plugs? From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri Nov 7 15:15:23 1997 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Hard Drive Bible In-Reply-To: <199711071527.HAA27595@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <2DEF59173DCE@ifrsys.com> > I 'd like to commend and thank Matt Pritchard for shipping the Hard Drive > Bibles. I know he went to a lot of trouble to purchase, pack and ship > several heavy volumes...and asked no profit for himself. > > If he ever needs a favor, I hope everyone will bend over backwards to help > him! > > Thanks, Mr. Pritchard, > > manney@nwohio.com > Hey, I wanna second that! One of the coolest things about this group are all of those kind, patient people who will go out of their way to help others! Thank _YOU_ Mr. Pritchard! From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Nov 7 17:16:47 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Old stuff Message-ID: <971107181644_1447284069@mrin51.mail.aol.com> In a certain supply room, there are in storage some computers of interest to me. There used to be some XTs and PCs, but they were given to a school. The stuff that's still there: A ton of printers, generally IBM dot-matrix A ton of manuals and books, including manuals to Quattro-Pro, the manuals to some of the IBM printers, etc. Also, books on C and pascal A few cartons of floppies, with the original disks to DOS 3.3, and a bunch of programs I have never heard of. About 15 IBM network cards. I can't tell what they are, but they are brown full- length eight bit things with round connectors on the back. An IBM System/74, with three terminals. I believe that the administration will part with all of these without much difficulty. I could personally use the first 4 items. The System/74 is about the size of a closet, and I doubt I would find much use for it (If only I had room...) I know nothing about it, and I would appreciate if you people would tell me what the heck a System/74 is. It has a big floppy drive (14" or 8") built in to the front panel, mounted on its side..... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 17:13:20 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711070200.AA19439@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 6, 97 09:00:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1330 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971107/527d2a33/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 17:18:51 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971106184445.00e88990@pop.batnet.com> from "Kip Crosby" at Nov 6, 97 06:44:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1031 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971107/bb5302d4/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 7 17:50:03 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 7, 97 11:13:20 pm Message-ID: <9711072350.AA25984@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 756 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971107/352ad79c/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Nov 7 18:06:12 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Challenger series Message-ID: <971107190612_1658237864@mrin38> Actually, i have a C1P model that is untested at the moment. I also have plenty of documentation which I have loaned out for copying purposes. My particular model is tan with brown sides. david In a message dated 97-11-07 12:32:24 EST, you write: > Whoops.... Try Challenger > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Beaverton, Oregon > > On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, George Rachor wrote: > > > Forgive me as I have just joined the list but it seems that most of the > > computer collections noted online have missed my favorite machine. > > > > My first machine was an Ohio Scientific C2-4p. I do think my most > > efficient programming was done in that 4K of RAM. > > > > I no longer have the original but do have a couple of it's brothers. The > > last of the series was painted white and had introduced color. To > > complete my collection I'd love to find either a C4 or C8 machine complete > > with Disk subsystem and software. I refuse to believe that I've got the > > only ones left. > > > > George Rachor > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Nov 7 18:12:37 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: imagewriter I available. Message-ID: <971107191235_-692914108@mrin52.mail.aol.com> Ive got a non working imagewriter model I available for cost of shipping from NC if anyone wants it. i've the original box to ship it in, although the packing material is missing. printer is complete except for plastic top cover, and it gets power, but wont print. i think it's probably some logic component inside which has failed. i have a wide carriage model to keep anyway. interested? david From engine at chac.org Fri Nov 7 18:18:59 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971107161820.00f5a950@pop.batnet.com> At 23:18 11/7/97 +0000, you wrote: >I am conviced that a lot of people (probably not on this list) wouldn't >know a well-designed or well-built computer if it was dropped on them... Naturally not, they'd be too busy limping around howling. ____________________________________________________________ Kip Crosby, honcho, mechanic and sole proprietor, Kip's Garage http://www.kipsgarage.com: rumors, tech tips and philosophy for the trenches Coming Spring '98: The Windows 98 Bible by Kip Crosby and Fred Davis! From engine at chac.org Fri Nov 7 18:18:58 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971107161643.00eedb60@pop.batnet.com> At 23:13 11/7/97 +0000, you wrote: >A true story.... I was at a radio rally (hamfest) about 7 years ago, and >there was an Altair on sale, and alongside it....there was an >Intel MCS8i 8080 development system. Well, it was late in the day, my >money was running out, so I could only buy one of them. > >I picked the Intellec. And I am not sorry. Sure it's not going to make me >rich, but it is _beautiful_ inside. Damn, Tony, I always knew you had taste! __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Nov 7 19:36:28 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: STuff Message-ID: <971107203628_935005658@mrin54.mail.aol.com> >have a bunch of wyse 60 terminals, a couple of 386's, an old printer >and various boards etc. Anyone interested. >"Janet Paganelli" What's a wyse 60? What kind of boards do you have? Is it a dot matrix printer? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 7 19:47:10 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: STuff In-Reply-To: <971107203628_935005658@mrin54.mail.aol.com> from "Zeus334@aol.com" at Nov 7, 97 08:36:28 pm Message-ID: <9711080147.AA28792@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 322 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971107/9812a6b5/attachment.ksh From danjo at xnet.com Fri Nov 7 20:10:47 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > > The Nova was a seminal machine even if it was a "widened/en- > > hanced" PDP-8. One of the founders of Apple, who lots of those > > here hold in very high esteem, was captivated enough by the Nova > > to keep a picture of one tacked to his bedroom wall. (Kids, > > sheesh! :-) ) > > Ehehe... I did that with a PDP-11/20 picture. It lasted about a week > until my parents demanded I take it down. > > And you two stop arguing. You're acting like... children... Age has nothing to do with emotions 8-) > (Oh god, I *NEVER* thought I'd hear that coming from *ME!*) You're right Dan - I never thought it either 8-) BC From danjo at xnet.com Fri Nov 7 20:16:58 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711072350.AA25984@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > As regards historical interest, well, it has an IOBYTE at address 3, > > divided into 4 2-bit fields that define the console, punch, reader and > > list device - long befroe CP/M. > > I don't think Gary Kildall or anyone else DRI ever pretended that > the IOBYTE was their idea :-). My CP/M 1.3 Alteration Guide, in fact, says > > The definition of the IOBYTE function > corresponds to the Intel standard as follows: a sinqle location in memory > (currently location 0003H) is maintained, called IOBYTE, which defines the > logical to physical device mapping wbich is in effect at a particular time. > > Not surprising, especially since Gary Kildall tried to get Intel to > buy and market CP/M before he was told to go do it on his own... Absolutely right Tim! As I remember Gary was working at Intel with a MDS-800 (just like mine 8-) with ISIS II loaded (reason for the 4k offset - ISIS owned that space) with PL/M (just like mine 8-) and ASM (just like mine 8-). At least that is what the comments in my CP/M 1.4 source code says 8-). And, gee, I can compile it and RUN it on my little MDS-800 just fine! I knew I would NEED to have these BIG HONKING BLUE BOXS one day 8-) BC From dastar at wco.com Fri Nov 7 20:23:51 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711072006.AA19154@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:03:12 -0800 (PST), we heard Mr. Ismail utter: > > > The Nova will never be featured in the newspapers because it is not a > > socially significant computer. > > Two words, one of which is not printable, but the lead-in is > "Bull". Ok, first of all I'm pretty amazed at the 3rd grade level of mentality being demonstrated by the whiners complaining about my "foul" language. I didn't know "family values" were required here. At any rate I'm sorry that I do not choose to limit my vocabulary to only those words which the Puritanical populace finds palatable. > The Nova was one of the early minicomputers which came to be used > by schools in the early '70s. The other one, and slightly earlier in > origin, was the PDP-8. The pdp11 post-dates these by some time. I'm not arguing against the Nova being a significant computer. And again, I'd like someone to point out where I did. But before you bother going back to read old messages, I'll save you the time by telling you that you will not find a sentence where I stated "The Nova is not significant". Perhaps I should have been more specific and stated that from a mass-consumer marketing standpoint, the Nova is not significant. It did not impact society the way the Altair or Apple did, and newspapers simply do not run articles on just any old subject. Its the same reason why nobody will ever want to know what's in your sock drawer, unless your socks were found to cure cancer or were used to kill someone. At any rate, why is there concern that the Nova will never be wanted until some newspaper runs an article on it? The argument is pointless. So there's no market for it. Boo hoo. Either keep them in storage or scrap them. Nobody required Tim to take on 5000 lbs worth of stuff and nobody is requiring me to take it off his hands. If Tim was realistic he'd realize the practical implications involved in hauling a ton of equipment ANYWHERE on the continent, let alone across national borders. I thought it was pretty much agreed that there were no requirements for being a collector of old computers, and we all had our own reasons for doing it. From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Fri Nov 7 20:31:37 1997 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: CP/M for Osborne-1 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 6, 97 08:25:23 pm Message-ID: <199711080231.VAA00137@hiway1.exit109.com> > >I picked up an Osborne-1 last night, but no software. Is anyone willing to > >cut me a copy of some 5 1/4" CP/M operating system and utility disks? Original tan or later blue/grey? Tony, I've got a copy, if nobody else can get you a set. I forget, is Don Maslin on this list? If so, he is the one to talk to for just about any CP/M system disk. > You'll want to ensure you get the correct ones. There are at least two > different versions one for 40 columns, and another for 80 columns. I'm > pretty sure that the 40 column systems can't be booted with 80 column > disks. BTW I'm refering to the number of columns on the display. It's actually 52 columns physical, able to pan over a window of up to 128 columns. The original O-1's were single density. Later on, both double density and 80-columns were available as upgrades. A SD, 52-column disk should boot on anything. I can't speak for any other combo because mine has both DD and 80 cols. BTW, does anyone know if there were 3rd party 80-columns upgrades? A while back, I got a disk from Don Maslin which was supposed to be a 80-col boot disk. Although it booted fine on his and several other systems, it would never boot mine. I later tried reinstalling the patches on the disk to a fresh copy of CP/M- no luck either. It also crashes totally when I try to set the baud rate of the "programmable" clock generator referenced in the README for the disk. Makes me think I have a different upgrade... <<>> From wpe at interserv.com Fri Nov 7 21:01:02 1997 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. References: <9710058787.AA878781887@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3463D5EC.1D9BEA9@interserv.com> At the risk of being politically incorrect, I believe we've digressed from the original subject of the message.... FWTBIW (For what the bleep it's worth..)...... An oldie.. How many programmers does it take to change a light bulb? None, that's a hardware problem.. Okay, I tried.. When I was at DEC, there was one about how many DECcies it took to change a bulb, and, if memory (even tries to) serve me, this took about two text pages or so, and was pretty funny.. Anyone got a copy of this? Seems to me, that this floated around MLO (The Mill in Maynard Ma.) around the mid 1980's... Oh, another one, when dealing with a hardware problem, This was coined by a FS tech, that used to service the KL1091, and the 2060.., when talking to the system operator.... "Follow the red wire, 'cuz the red wire leads to power, and power corrupts".... Hey, Jay, are you out there???? 8>) 8>) 8>) ! Will From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Nov 7 21:34:36 1997 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Old stuff In-Reply-To: <971107181644_1447284069@mrin51.mail.aol.com> References: <971107181644_1447284069@mrin51.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3465dc89.538572185@hoser> I don't know much about the rest of the stuff, but in my experience with IBM network cards, if they're a round (i.e. BNC) connector, they're probably the old "baseband" stuff that uses lots of coax cable and a hub/amplifier, and work only with IBM PC-LAN Program and NetBEUI. It ran at some horribly slow speed; the number 2Mb/sec comes to mind, but it seems like it felt a lot slower than even that. If it's not round, but in fact DB-9 shaped, then they're probably 4Mb/sec token-ring cards, which will work with some versions of NetWare and probably Vines and other established (i.e. old) network operating systems. If they're the baseband variety, you'd probably do better with tin cans and string; if they're token-ring, then they might be worth your trouble to rescue. On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:16:47 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >About 15 IBM network cards. I can't tell what they are, but they are brown >full- length eight bit things with round connectors on the back. > -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Nov 7 21:45:12 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Old stuff Message-ID: <19971108040550.AAA8617@hotze> If it's possible, could I take a IBM dot-matrix (or any other dot-matrix)? By the way, I've tried all the computer retailers in my area, and they don't have any classics. Any other places I should look? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: Zeus334@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Old stuff Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 2:16 AM In a certain supply room, there are in storage some computers of interest to me. There used to be some XTs and PCs, but they were given to a school. The stuff that's still there: A ton of printers, generally IBM dot-matrix A ton of manuals and books, including manuals to Quattro-Pro, the manuals to some of the IBM printers, etc. Also, books on C and pascal A few cartons of floppies, with the original disks to DOS 3.3, and a bunch of programs I have never heard of. About 15 IBM network cards. I can't tell what they are, but they are brown full- length eight bit things with round connectors on the back. An IBM System/74, with three terminals. I believe that the administration will part with all of these without much difficulty. I could personally use the first 4 items. The System/74 is about the size of a closet, and I doubt I would find much use for it (If only I had room...) I know nothing about it, and I would appreciate if you people would tell me what the heck a System/74 is. It has a big floppy drive (14" or 8") built in to the front panel, mounted on its side..... From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Nov 7 21:48:53 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <19971108040550.AAB8617@hotze> Sure they would.... if the computer was better built then them, then it would break their head. If it was built worse than them, their head would only sustain minor damage!!! ---------- From: Kip Crosby To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 3:18 AM At 23:18 11/7/97 +0000, you wrote: >I am conviced that a lot of people (probably not on this list) wouldn't >know a well-designed or well-built computer if it was dropped on them... Naturally not, they'd be too busy limping around howling. ____________________________________________________________ Kip Crosby, honcho, mechanic and sole proprietor, Kip's Garage http://www.kipsgarage.com: rumors, tech tips and philosophy for the trenches Coming Spring '98: The Windows 98 Bible by Kip Crosby and Fred Davis! From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Nov 7 21:49:26 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: STuff Message-ID: <19971108040550.AAC8617@hotze> I'm interested in the 386's. ---------- From: Zeus334@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: STuff Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 4:36 AM >have a bunch of wyse 60 terminals, a couple of 386's, an old printer >and various boards etc. Anyone interested. >"Janet Paganelli" What's a wyse 60? What kind of boards do you have? Is it a dot matrix printer? From engine at chac.org Fri Nov 7 22:20:01 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Old stuff Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971107201940.00f66830@pop.batnet.com> At 03:34 11/8/97 GMT, you wrote: >....in my experience >with IBM network cards, if they're a round (i.e. BNC) connector, >they're probably the old "baseband" stuff that uses lots of coax cable >and a hub/amplifier, and work only with IBM PC-LAN Program and >NetBEUI....the number 2Mb/sec comes >to mind.... Are we talking about Arcnet here? When I think 2Mb/sec, BNC connector, and 8-bit bus, I think Arcnet, but there may have been others.... ____________________________________________________________ Kip Crosby, honcho, mechanic and sole proprietor, Kip's Garage http://www.kipsgarage.com: rumors, tech tips and philosophy for the trenches Coming Spring '98: The Windows 98 Bible by Kip Crosby and Fred Davis! From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 7 22:46:03 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711080446.AA01847@world.std.com> Message-ID: <34640EE1.3A78@worldnet.att.net> Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > I believe that there are some CPU chips now with 64-bit internal buses. > Any advance on 64? Well I believe the HP 85 had a HP propietary CPU with 64 bits internal running at 613 KHz ------------------------------------------------------------ Francois Auradon Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 7 23:04:17 1997 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: CP/M for Osborne-1 In-Reply-To: <199711080231.VAA00137@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > >I picked up an Osborne-1 last night, but no software. Is anyone willing to > > >cut me a copy of some 5 1/4" CP/M operating system and utility disks? > > Original tan or later blue/grey? > > Tony, I've got a copy, if nobody else can get you a set. > > I forget, is Don Maslin on this list? If so, he is the one to talk to for > just about any CP/M system disk. > > > You'll want to ensure you get the correct ones. There are at least two > > different versions one for 40 columns, and another for 80 columns. I'm > > pretty sure that the 40 column systems can't be booted with 80 column > > disks. BTW I'm refering to the number of columns on the display. > > It's actually 52 columns physical, able to pan over a window of up to 128 > columns. > > The original O-1's were single density. Later on, both double density and > 80-columns were available as upgrades. > > A SD, 52-column disk should boot on anything. I can't speak for any other > combo because mine has both DD and 80 cols. > > BTW, does anyone know if there were 3rd party 80-columns upgrades? A while > back, I got a disk from Don Maslin which was supposed to be a 80-col > boot disk. Although it booted fine on his and several other systems, it > would never boot mine. I later tried reinstalling the patches on the disk > to a fresh copy of CP/M- no luck either. It also crashes totally when I > try to set the baud rate of the "programmable" clock generator referenced in > the README for the disk. That would be the one that is listed as the OS1NUEVO in my SYSDISK list. I don't know the answer to your question, John, but it is certainly possible. Do you now have a bootable SSDD-80 column disk for your machine? I'd be interested in a copy to compare. > Makes me think I have a different upgrade... > > <<>> > - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From alanr at morgan.ucs.mun.ca Fri Nov 7 23:21:30 1997 From: alanr at morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Alan Richards) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Space problems and Laser 128ex Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971108052130.008b6128@pop.morgan.ucs.mun.ca> I wondering if anyone had any info on the Laser 128ex. I lugged an EGA monitor to a friend of mine this week with the intentions of trading it for a couple of hard drives, as I really need to clear some space (two bedroom apartment, and I'm sleeping on a loveseat in the living room). Anyway, when I got down there, I noticed the Laser on a shelf. I have never heard of this machione before, so of course I had to have it right then and there :) It resembles an Apple//c in layout; CPU, keyboard and 5 1/4" floppy in one unit. As a bonus, the power supply I got with it also fits, my Apple//c. I also noticed that on the bottom, there is a switch for LCD screen. The similarities between this and the Apple makes me wonder if this wasn't some sort of copy. Does anyone have any ideas about this machine, specificaly I would like to know how to break into the BASIC. On the Apple, I press CRTL and reset, but this doesn't work on the Laser. I would appreciate any help. Thanks in advance... ---------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________Live from the GLRS The Man From D.A.D ---------------------------------------------------------------- From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Nov 7 18:53:54 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711062307.AA12075@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711080559.AAA28879@smtp.interlog.com> On 6 Nov 97 at 18:07, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <> The Nova will never be featured in the newspapers because it is not a > <> socially significant computer. > > No more (or less) so than PDP-11s that it competed against. > > > Good read, still have my copy! > Me too. But I've also got a hard-cover now! > Once upon a time there were many computer companies in Massachusetts > and during the life of the pdp-8, PDP-11 and the VAX there was Data General > trying to also carve a niche in the minicomputer market. This is > significant as most of action preceeds 1978. To put that in perspective > by '78 the altair was two years old and MITS starting to crumble, IMSI was > starting to peak, TRS-80 was new, AppleII was there as well, SS50 bus > machines were strong with SWTP and the new Smoke Signal Broadcasting > Company. The PC would be three years away. > This prompted me to dig up a Nov 81 copy of a mag called Datamation whose feature article was a history of the Route 128 companies and a companion piece "Rte128's new Wave Startups" which included Apollo, Stratus, SOLV-vation, and the 'revamped"Charles River Data Systems.. The push was on to 32bit and Data General was offering it"s "brand-new" medium-priced supermini,the MV 6000 whose price was on it's way down to only $100,000. Mind you in the new hardware section in the back, they report "A typical system with peripherals will sell for $215,000 ,DG says." One of the products featured was a modem for VAX' from Clyde Digital Systems with programmable auto-dial, auto-answer 300bps to 1200 bps called CALOUT (of course :^)) for only $1845. Another "cute" blurb, "CP/M-86 is the 16 bit version of the de facto industry standard microcomputer operating system, CPM. Once a user slips the 8-inch floppy containing CPM-86 into a (IBM) Displaywriter, an entirely new world of data processing will open up on the typist's desk." Sounds almost pornographic. ; ^ )) > Computers each and every have significance, some because of new concepts, > new markets or in a few cases the scams and swindles behind them! There > were many unremarkable computers made and many while noteable were really > junk! > > If I could say one thing about all of the arguments... > Been there, done that! I even have a few of the t-shirts that are still > not rags yet. How many were at PCC'76 on the boardwalk? > > Allison > I was 40 at that time and I didn't go to many concerts by then. Just hung out, smoked a little of dope and listened to some sides. My lady of the time did catch the Stones at the ElMo in 77 tho. ;^0 ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From alanr at morgan.ucs.mun.ca Fri Nov 7 23:38:31 1997 From: alanr at morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Alan Richards) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Intergraph 250... KILLED! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971108053831.008b2e2c@pop.morgan.ucs.mun.ca> I have to tell you all about the sad fate of a beautiful machine. I was at an auction last Saturday, and immediatly started to drool over this beautiful piece of equipment. It was an Intergraph 250 (No, I have never seen one before) and it look to be in excellent shape. It was about 6 top 7 feet wide, by about 3 feet deep, and 5 feet high, with a beautiful blue and white finish. On one side, behind a large black panel, was four large, rack mounted drives; 2 were 557mb, and the other 2 were 337mb. I believe the drives were old SCSI drives. On the other side, was a large reel tape backup system, and below that, the guts of the machine behind another black panel. Everything look to be there, and in working order. Now for the sad part. It went for $2.50 (Converted to US, that is like -$0.45 :) The person who bought it... some low, greasy guy with the name of his autobody shop on his greasy ball cap (no, I didn't bid on it, I have no place to put it) my friend asked him what he was going to do with it, and you could tell by looking at the guy that he couldn't wait to try out a new cutting saw on the thing, according to my friend (I was busy banging my head agianst the wall :< It is dead by now, and now I want to add to my misery by finding out exactly what it was, what it's speed was, what it was comparable to. Anybody out there know? ---------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________Live from the GLRS The Man From D.A.D ---------------------------------------------------------------- From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat Nov 8 01:45:57 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:28 2005 Subject: Finds & Questions Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971107234351.32c7e4ee@ricochet.net> Added a couple of things to my collection today: Compaq 386 Lunchbox (comes up with a 1790 (iirc) Disk 0 error) -- $35 Data General One -- $20 2 SE/30 logic boards, new in Apple service boxes -- $10 (probably put these on ebay.) HP DDS Dat drive -- $25 HP 75D with 9114 disk drive -- $25 My questions concern this last one. The computer itself is about 5" deep by 10" wide by about an inch thick. It has room for three expansion modules (has two: "Barcode Reader" and "HP 75 I/O") and four connectors on the rear. Two are in and out to the 9114, one is power (I'm pretty sure) but I'm not sure about the last. Perhaps input for the barcode wand? Anyway, if anyone has *any* info about it, I'd love to hear from you. I tried HP's site and all I got was that it's discontinued, not supported, and replaced by a newer handheld or something. It was described as a "notebook BASIC Computer", btw. Thanks in advance! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Nov 8 05:29:13 1997 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971108062913.0068e394@mail.wincom.net> I just bought a DEC Rainbow, does anyone have any idea where I can get a boot disk for it? Thanks Charlie Fox From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Sat Nov 8 08:59:08 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711081459.JAA00380@zephyr.cacm.org> On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:23:51 -0800 (PST), Mr. Ismail remarked: > Ok, first of all I'm pretty amazed at the 3rd grade level of > mentality being demonstrated by the whiners complaining about my > "foul" language. You seem to hint that I was whining about the language, which is simply not the case. The way one uses language states a lot about who they are - and yes, sometimes this requires profanity. However, let's save the "heavy language" for times when we really need it (like when you drop a mini on your foot :-) ). > Perhaps I should have been more specific and stated that from a > mass-consumer marketing standpoint, the Nova is not significant. In this case, the man has a valid point - from one perspective. If one takes that perspective to an extreme, however, we find that ENIAC wasn't relevant (only one ever built), none of the Zuse machines amounted to anything, the ABC was meaningless, and the IBM 360 was unimportant. There's more to a machine that makes it historically important than how many were sold or produced. Was the STRETCH important (a half dozen or so)? How about the PDP-10 (under a thousand)? Mass marketing is not the gauge of importance, especially in a social context. Remember - the individuals who designed the machines that _were_ mass marketed were brought up knowing about computers, and those machines most certainly weren't mass-market devices. > At any rate, why is there concern that the Nova will never be wanted > until some newspaper runs an article on it? The argument is > pointless. Whether Novas are "wanted" is immaterial to the argument. Folks are now virtually unaware of a piece of history, and an important one at that. It's also a piece of history that's fast disappearing, which is a rotten shame. > So there's no market for it. Boo hoo. Do multi-thousand dollar speculative prices on Altairs make them more "historic" or "valuable" than a PDP-5 (predecessor of the -8)? There's more to be calculated into a "value" than the current market price, which all too frequently is out of line with reality. > Nobody required Tim to take on 5000 lbs worth of stuff [...] Nope. Nobody did. That's one of the reasons I have respect for the man. He knows machines worth saving, and is willing to take the time and (not incosiderable) effort to do so. > If Tim was realistic he'd realize the practical implications involved > in hauling a ton of equipment ANYWHERE on the continent, let alone > across national borders. He is realistic about it - I've chatted with him about it privately. He realises fully what moving that amount of gear means. So do I and another chap out East who are moving a good quarter-ton all the way across a continent. > If the majority of kids in America had a picture of a Nova tacked to > their wall, the newspapers might have run a story on one. Do you know who I'm speaking of? Hint: he designed one of the early mass-market computers that you prize so highly. > So Carl, why did you just mention the most popular of personal > computers? Put bluntly - shock value. I used that list as a calculated way of getting folks' attention, and perhaps, just perhaps, of getting them to "smell the coffee". To reiterate - it takes more to make a machine important than how many copies were sold. Cheers. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Sat Nov 8 09:00:39 1997 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Space problems and Laser 128ex In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971108052130.008b6128@pop.morgan.ucs.mun.ca> from "Alan Richards" at Nov 8, 97 02:21:30 am Message-ID: <199711081500.KAA12677@hiway1.exit109.com> > I wondering if anyone had any info on the Laser 128ex. I lugged an EGA > monitor to a friend of mine this week with the intentions of trading it for > a couple of hard drives, as I really need to clear some space (two bedroom > apartment, and I'm sleeping on a loveseat in the living room). Anyway, when > I got down there, I noticed the Laser on a shelf. I have never heard of this > machione before, so of course I had to have it right then and there :) > > It resembles an Apple//c in layout; CPU, keyboard and 5 1/4" floppy in one > unit. As a bonus, the power supply I got with it also fits, my Apple//c. I > also noticed that on the bottom, there is a switch for LCD screen. The > similarities between this and the Apple makes me wonder if this wasn't some > sort of copy. Yup, it is. It's a sort of cross between the IIe and IIc. More of the latter, but it included a slot (expandable to 2 with an external box). It included a couple of nice features including the ability to use just about any Apple (or Mac) 3.5" floppy drive and ability to drive an RGB monitor. (A iic needed an adapter to do that.) The 128ex was also faster, able to switch between 1,2,and 3 mhz. (Hold down 1, 2, or 3 at power on). It also came with a built-in memory expansion card, which could take up to 1MB of 256x1 DRAMS. (The memory card is mapped to slot 5). > Does anyone have any ideas about this machine, specificaly I would like to > know how to break into the BASIC. On the Apple, I press CRTL and reset, but > this doesn't work on the Laser. CTRL-Reset should work, probably the keyboard needs cleaning. <<>> From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Sat Nov 8 09:03:09 1997 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: CP/M for Osborne-1 In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 7, 97 09:04:17 pm Message-ID: <199711081503.KAA13009@hiway1.exit109.com> > > BTW, does anyone know if there were 3rd party 80-columns upgrades? A while > > back, I got a disk from Don Maslin which was supposed to be a 80-col > > boot disk. Although it booted fine on his and several other systems, it > > would never boot mine. I later tried reinstalling the patches on the disk > > to a fresh copy of CP/M- no luck either. It also crashes totally when I > > try to set the baud rate of the "programmable" clock generator referenced in > > the README for the disk. > > That would be the one that is listed as the OS1NUEVO in my SYSDISK list. > I don't know the answer to your question, John, but it is certainly > possible. Do you now have a bootable SSDD-80 column disk for your > machine? I'd be interested in a copy to compare. Nope. Interestingly, if I use SYSGEN to load the CP/M from the disk after it is booted, it will switch into 80-col mode and stay that way until powered off. Possibility 2- I wonder if some jumpers are set wrong/different. <<>> From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Sat Nov 8 09:11:11 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Intergraph 250... KILLED! Message-ID: <199711081511.KAA00394@zephyr.cacm.org> On Sat, 08 Nov 1997 02:38:31 -0300, Mr. Richards made the following statements: > I have to tell you all about the sad fate of a beautiful machine. > [...] It was an Intergraph 250 [...] > I want to add to my misery by finding out exactly what it was, what > it's speed was, what it was comparable to. The brains of the machine were a MicroVAX II (KA630-AA). Disks were primarily Fujitsu 8" Winchester drives controlled by an Inter- graph proprietary controller called an "InterBus File Processor". A SCSI tape drive was standard on the 250, also of Fujitsu manufacture if I recall correctly. A nice enough little box, but hobbled for the hobbyist community by the proprietary controller for which no schematics of firmware listings will _ever_ be available from Intergraph. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 8 09:09:24 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <19971108040550.AAB8617@hotze> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Hotze wrote: > At 23:18 11/7/97 +0000, you wrote: > >I am conviced that a lot of people (probably not on this list) wouldn't > >know a well-designed or well-built computer if it was dropped on them... > > Naturally not, they'd be too busy limping around howling. > I DID THAT! I DID THAT! I successfully managed to crush Jeff Beoletto's (One of my friends) toes with a PDP-11/44. We were trying to move it sideways. BTW, his foot healed up quite well. And he wasn't limping around, he was curled up in a little ball on the floor, cussing a blue streak :) A week ago we were moving the RA81, and I almost did it again... From jbeolett at ssi.net Sat Nov 8 09:28:14 1997 From: jbeolett at ssi.net (Jeff Beoletto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Hotze wrote: > > > At 23:18 11/7/97 +0000, you wrote: > > >I am conviced that a lot of people (probably not on this list) wouldn't > > >know a well-designed or well-built computer if it was dropped on them... > > > > Naturally not, they'd be too busy limping around howling. > > > > I DID THAT! I DID THAT! I successfully managed to crush Jeff Beoletto's > (One of my friends) toes with > a PDP-11/44. We were trying to move it sideways. BTW, his foot healed up > quite well. And he wasn't limping around, he was curled up in a little > ball on the floor, cussing a blue streak :) A week ago we were moving the > RA81, and I almost did it again... > > > Seeing how it was me that Dan managed to drop it I can agree to the limping, and ironically enough it's the same foot that I had broken 3 times in the month before he crushed it. And just yesterday hauling a pc down to our storagge office on the 5th floor I tripped and fell down the steps and have just re-broken that very same ankle. Computers are hazerdous to your health. =+) From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Nov 8 09:59:12 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <19971108160305.AAB23301@hotze> Now.... just for fun, try to get a modern PC, drop it on your toe (A sacrifice for science) and then watch it break into DOZENS of piece. Chip out of socket, RAM out of socket, motherboard out of case, power supply out of case, HDD crashed, disk drive not in a working condition, CD-ROM drive's laser swears that there's no disk in. They don't make 'em like they used to!!! ---------- From: Jeff Beoletto To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 6:28 PM On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Hotze wrote: > > > At 23:18 11/7/97 +0000, you wrote: > > >I am conviced that a lot of people (probably not on this list) wouldn't > > >know a well-designed or well-built computer if it was dropped on them... > > > > Naturally not, they'd be too busy limping around howling. > > > > I DID THAT! I DID THAT! I successfully managed to crush Jeff Beoletto's > (One of my friends) toes with > a PDP-11/44. We were trying to move it sideways. BTW, his foot healed up > quite well. And he wasn't limping around, he was curled up in a little > ball on the floor, cussing a blue streak :) A week ago we were moving the > RA81, and I almost did it again... > > > Seeing how it was me that Dan managed to drop it I can agree to the limping, and ironically enough it's the same foot that I had broken 3 times in the month before he crushed it. And just yesterday hauling a pc down to our storagge office on the 5th floor I tripped and fell down the steps and have just re-broken that very same ankle. Computers are hazerdous to your health. =+) From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 8 10:01:34 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <19971108160305.AAB23301@hotze> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Hotze wrote: > Now.... just for fun, try to get a modern PC, drop it on your toe (A > sacrifice for science) and then watch it break into DOZENS of piece. Chip > out of socket, RAM out of socket, motherboard out of case, power supply out > of case, HDD crashed, disk drive not in a working condition, CD-ROM drive's > laser swears that there's no disk in. They don't make 'em like they used > to!!! > Why break a new PC? They can be used as terminals for the *REAL* computers! From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Nov 8 10:14:57 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <19971108161511.AAA24350@hotze> You're right, also, they can make great places to keep things... convert a black case into a storage area for you're CDS, empty out a power supply to make an industrial-style case. Also, what are "popular" micros; I need to start getting collecting, but I'm not sure what to start with. By the way, that warehouse that was full of classics... what ever happened? When I say "popular"; I mean what are good, not something that's worth money. (No 5,000 pound Nova's, please) Bye, Tim D. Hotze ---------- From: Daniel A. Seagraves To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 7:01 PM On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Hotze wrote: > Now.... just for fun, try to get a modern PC, drop it on your toe (A > sacrifice for science) and then watch it break into DOZENS of piece. Chip > out of socket, RAM out of socket, motherboard out of case, power supply out > of case, HDD crashed, disk drive not in a working condition, CD-ROM drive's > laser swears that there's no disk in. They don't make 'em like they used > to!!! > Why break a new PC? They can be used as terminals for the *REAL* computers! From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 8 10:20:40 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <199711081620.AA05369@world.std.com> <> I believe that there are some CPU chips now with 64-bit internal buses. <> Any advance on 64? <> <> Good read, still have my copy! <> < I was at an auction last Saturday, and immediatly started to drool over Is there a way to disable the M8190 console SLU so as to use another serial in it's place? The bulkhead adapter for the SLU has been cannabalized to fix another machine, and I want to get this one running. I have the DLV-11J that was in my 11/23, I plan to use it. Any ideas? From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Nov 8 10:49:59 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Hard drive jumper settings required. In-Reply-To: <19971103152101.AAA8746@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971108084959.006cd000@ferrari.sfu.ca> At 05:31 PM 97/11/03 +0300, you wrote: >I'm going to attach this to the QD21, so I need to reset the jumpers. >IBM 115MB ESDI drive, type 0669, sequence # 104040108 >There are 6 DIP switched behind the drive terminator. I'm told I have to >use a straight-through cable, so I went and got one. Yep, you need one. You can use a standard PC cable and ignore the twisted connector, or simply cut and resolder the twisted portion. This works for me. >The drive does nothing. With a crossover cable (Where the pins are >crossed, a normal PC cable) it went click-clunk, click-clunk, and did >nothing. The drive is known good. (I pulled it from a PS/2 which we >upgraded to a SCSI drive) Here's the plan. Get the drive specs from the IBM web site (this will be tough, their sites are, in my experience, very hard to navigate), and grab a copy of the QD21 manual that explains each of the required parameters. There are copies available online, I can email it to you if necessary. Boot your machine to the chevron prompt, then start up the QD21 firmware. Hopefully you'll have the "newer" menu driven version, if not then you'll have to set up some tables in memory as described in the manual. The QD21 has a "read disk parameters from device" setting, I'd try that first to see if it works for your drive. I've have mixed success with non-DEC drives on this one. If it works then you're away to the races, just format from the QD21 menus and then INIT DUxx from VMS or whatever's on your VAX. If not then you'll have to enter a bunch of parameters from the drive specs, plus some that you can calculate from the specs as stated in the manual. The drive select jumper on the drive must generally be set to "drive select 2". If you're getting no response this may be the problem. The cable must not be of the twisted variety. Make sure your cable polarity is right, etc. etc. I have had success with IBM ESDI drives and the QD21, just keep fiddling and you'll get it going! I hope this helps, Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 8 10:53:23 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711081653.AA21338@world.std.com> <> Ok, first of all I'm pretty amazed at the 3rd grade level of <> mentality being demonstrated by the whiners complaining about my <> "foul" language. Sam, it's not a big thing but there are a few women and I for one really don't like it. I'm no prude and there are time I can turn the air blue but I try to avoid it unless there is pain associated with it. < There's more to a machine that makes it historically important If the majority of kids in America had a picture of a Nova tacked to <> their wall, the newspapers might have run a story on one. < < Do you know who I'm speaking of? Hint: he designed one of the early Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Yep, you need one. You can use a standard PC cable and ignore the twisted > connector, or simply cut and resolder the twisted portion. This works for me. I already have a straight-through. > > Here's the plan. Get the drive specs from the IBM web site (this will be > tough, their sites are, in my experience, very hard to navigate), and grab > a copy of the QD21 manual that explains each of the required parameters. > There are copies available online, I can email it to you if necessary. > Email would be good, I've tried looking for the manual but had no luck finding it. > Boot your machine to the chevron prompt, then start up the QD21 firmware. > Hopefully you'll have the "newer" menu driven version, if not then you'll > have to set up some tables in memory as described in the manual. > I do have the menus. I can get that far. > The QD21 has a "read disk parameters from device" setting, I'd try that > first to see if it works for your drive. I've have mixed success with > non-DEC drives on this one. If it works then you're away to the races, just > format from the QD21 menus and then INIT DUxx from VMS or whatever's on > your VAX. VAX? The QD21 is in a PDP-11/23+. > > If not then you'll have to enter a bunch of parameters from the drive > specs, plus some that you can calculate from the specs as stated in the > manual. > OK > The drive select jumper on the drive must generally be set to "drive select > 2". If you're getting no response this may be the problem. The cable must > not be of the twisted variety. Make sure your cable polarity is right, etc. > etc. > > I have had success with IBM ESDI drives and the QD21, just keep fiddling > and you'll get it going! That's the usual plan... > I hope this helps, If you really have the manual, it will! From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Sat Nov 8 11:00:26 1997 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Huh?! In-Reply-To: <199711080802.AAA06842@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971108090026.00e8fb10@mail.wizards.net> At 00:02 08-11-97 PST, Tim Shoppa intoned (in response to Dan Seagraves): >I'm going to make a guess that you're talking about DEC RX33 (5.25" >half-height drives) or DEC RX50 drives (two 5.25" drives in a full-height >5.25" form factor) hooked to a RQDX3 controller. If you can specify >that you're talking about one or the other, you'll get more specific >answers :-) >A RQDX3 is incapable of formatting RX50 floppies, but it is capable Excuse me, but this does not make sense to me. I have an RX50 and RQDX3 in my MicroVAX II, and it is perfectly happy formatting RX50 floppies. How do you think I got that wonderful tape copying program onto the hard drive? ;-) For my part, Tim, I'd be very disappointed if you unsubscribed from the list. I value your insights very much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Nov 8 11:11:48 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Huh?! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971108090026.00e8fb10@mail.wizards.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Nov 8, 97 09:00:26 am Message-ID: <9711081711.AA21350@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 493 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971108/143431a8/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Sat Nov 8 11:15:16 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711081459.JAA00380@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: > There's more to a machine that makes it historically important > than how many were sold or produced. Was the STRETCH important (a > half dozen or so)? How about the PDP-10 (under a thousand)? Mass > marketing is not the gauge of importance, especially in a social > context. Remember - the individuals who designed the machines that > _were_ mass marketed were brought up knowing about computers, and > those machines most certainly weren't mass-market devices. Well, Carl beat me with this point - history is _far_ more than just numbers. For example, how many ARPANET machines were ever in service? How many NSFnet machines? (About 40 for the curious ones out there). Yet look what THEY did - somehow I think that 500 years from now people are still going to talk about the start and explosion of the public global network. I would think that would certainly qualify as "socially significant". > Whether Novas are "wanted" is immaterial to the argument. Folks are > now virtually unaware of a piece of history, and an important one at > that. It's also a piece of history that's fast disappearing, which is > a rotten shame. If something is not wanted now, it may be wanted later (almost for sure, with bits of history, when they are "rediscovered"). All to many times, it is too late - did I just here someone mention Univac? William Donzelli william@ans.net From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 8 11:15:17 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > Whether Novas are "wanted" is immaterial to the argument. Folks are > > now virtually unaware of a piece of history, and an important one at > > that. It's also a piece of history that's fast disappearing, which is > > a rotten shame. > > If something is not wanted now, it may be wanted later (almost for sure, > with bits of history, when they are "rediscovered"). All to many times, it > is too late - did I just here someone mention Univac? > Ehehe... We should build a computer from discrete components, just to operate one. And connect it to the Internet. Of course, we'd never finish in out lifetimes, and it would fill a room, but it would be awful cool! From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Nov 8 11:54:16 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Here's the QD21 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19971108084959.006cd000@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971108095416.02fdc7f8@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Daniel: Attached is the QD21 manual in a gzipped tar archive format. If you need ASCII I'll resend it. Kevin At 10:52 AM 97/11/08 -0600, you wrote: >On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > >> Yep, you need one. You can use a standard PC cable and ignore the twisted >> connector, or simply cut and resolder the twisted portion. This works for me. > >I already have a straight-through. > >> >> Here's the plan. Get the drive specs from the IBM web site (this will be >> tough, their sites are, in my experience, very hard to navigate), and grab >> a copy of the QD21 manual that explains each of the required parameters. >> There are copies available online, I can email it to you if necessary. >> > >Email would be good, I've tried looking for the manual but had no luck >finding it. > >> Boot your machine to the chevron prompt, then start up the QD21 firmware. >> Hopefully you'll have the "newer" menu driven version, if not then you'll >> have to set up some tables in memory as described in the manual. >> > >I do have the menus. I can get that far. > >> The QD21 has a "read disk parameters from device" setting, I'd try that >> first to see if it works for your drive. I've have mixed success with >> non-DEC drives on this one. If it works then you're away to the races, just >> format from the QD21 menus and then INIT DUxx from VMS or whatever's on >> your VAX. > >VAX? The QD21 is in a PDP-11/23+. > >> >> If not then you'll have to enter a bunch of parameters from the drive >> specs, plus some that you can calculate from the specs as stated in the >> manual. >> > >OK > >> The drive select jumper on the drive must generally be set to "drive select >> 2". If you're getting no response this may be the problem. The cable must >> not be of the twisted variety. Make sure your cable polarity is right, etc. >> etc. >> >> I have had success with IBM ESDI drives and the QD21, just keep fiddling >> and you'll get it going! > >That's the usual plan... > >> I hope this helps, > >If you really have the manual, it will! > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: qd21.tar.gz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 68977 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971108/a986e236/qd21.tar.obj -------------- next part -------------- --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dastar at wco.com Sat Nov 8 12:27:12 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > Well, Carl beat me with this point - history is _far_ more than just > numbers. For example, how many ARPANET machines were ever in service? How > many NSFnet machines? (About 40 for the curious ones out there). Yet look > what THEY did - somehow I think that 500 years from now people are still > going to talk about the start and explosion of the public global network. > I would think that would certainly qualify as "socially significant". 500 years from now, if what I am trying to accomplish with the Vintage Computer Festival succeeds, the machines which were truly significant from a social context, meaning the ones which ran the banking system, the airline system, government, etc. (in other words, the computers which were the foundation of modern society), will be the ones which we remember, and the Altair and others of its ilk will be merely novelties. But that's 500 years from now. Or perhaps not that long. I say less than 50...perhaps even less than 20. > > Whether Novas are "wanted" is immaterial to the argument. Folks are > > now virtually unaware of a piece of history, and an important one at > > that. It's also a piece of history that's fast disappearing, which is > > a rotten shame. > > If something is not wanted now, it may be wanted later (almost for sure, > with bits of history, when they are "rediscovered"). All to many times, it > is too late - did I just here someone mention Univac? The only thing I disagree with about your statement is that it "may" be wanted later. That's wrong. It WILL be wanted later. It is important to hang onto EVERY bit of hardware, software and documentation, no matter how obscure, how uninspiring, how prevalent, how inspiring, etc. The fact is, some of us are providing a very imporant service to future historians. Some of us are having fun with a hobby. Some of us are doing both. There are no requirements. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From Zeus334 at aol.com Sat Nov 8 13:38:56 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Trash Message-ID: <971108143856_193726386@mrin40.mail.aol.com> So, what do you people think I should do when I just can't keep a computer much longer? I don't want to trash them, but things like XTs, 286s, etc? What can I do but throw them away when I have no room? Another question: does anyone have a logic board for a Mac Color Classic? I know it's pretty new, but this is the only place I stand a chance of getting one under $50. I found a Color Classic, and some moron smashed the display and ripped out the logic board. I can use an external screen, but what about the logic board? A related matter: ROM for a Mac IIx? From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Nov 8 14:07:07 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Auction - Apple Service Parts and a Modem Message-ID: <3464C66C.1FCA@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hello, This is the last of the Apple service parts I have. They're on the auction at eBay so please bid there. Apple IIc Floppy Drive (New in Box!) Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 11/13/97, 15:08:00 PST http://komodo.ebay2.com/aw-cgi/ItemISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1751182 Macintosh SE Main Logic Board (New in Box!) Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 11/13/97, 15:12:56 PST http://komodo.ebay2.com/aw-cgi/ItemISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1751290 Apple Imagewriter II CPU Board (Orig Box!) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 11/13/97, 15:16:50 PST http://komodo.ebay2.com/aw-cgi/ItemISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1751366 Mac II Power Supply (Orig Box!) Current bid: $5.50 Auction ends on: 11/13/97, 15:19:27 PST http://komodo.ebay2.com/aw-cgi/ItemISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1751413 Laserwriter II DC Power Supply (Orig Box!) Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 11/13/97, 15:21:57 PST http://komodo.ebay2.com/aw-cgi/ItemISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1751470 Apple Modem 1200 (1982, Original Box) Pic Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 11/14/97, 18:08:07 PST http://komodo.ebay2.com/aw-cgi/ItemISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1787149 From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat Nov 8 14:04:57 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971108120301.3597dcde@mail.sinasohn.com> At 06:33 PM 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote: >I wonder how many non - PC compatibles have used Intel 8088 or 8086 chips. I >have heard of a machine called an "ACT Apricot", which is said to have had >voice recognition and a GUI. Could someone tell me about it and others? My >reasoning is that there are lots of neat things that could be done on an >8088, but not with a DOS system. One of the first computer jobs I had was running* a CompuPro 8/16 under MP/M-16(?). It was an S-100 box with 5 or so terminals. I forget what it originally had as a processor but we upgraded shortly after I arrived to a 80286/8085 dual processor CPU board. *Note: this system was so rock solid and self-sustaining that I'm grossly exagerating here. I wrote some programs, did some data entry, and turned it on/shut it down. Piece of cake. P.S., I stumbled across a site that might offer insight into this question. It's at and offers a listing of computers by microprocessor (as well as other ways). Only problem is it's in french. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Nov 8 14:22:37 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow References: <3.0.2.32.19971108062913.0068e394@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <3464CA0D.B927031F@halcyon.com> Charlie, You are in luck. A good deal of the software available for the DEC Rainbow is available at ftp.update.uu.se in the /pub/rainbow directory and its subdirectories. You have a choice of CPM, CCPM, MSDOS, and the UCSD Pascal P-system. And diagnostics. All you need is a PC from which you can FTP the files and a 1.2 MB, 5.25in floppy drive on which you can run Teledisk (also available at update). Dave Charles E. Fox wrote: > > I just bought a DEC Rainbow, does anyone have any idea where I can get a > boot disk for it? > > Thanks > Charlie Fox -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 330 bytes Desc: Card for David C. Jenner Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971108/2bdfb92a/vcard.vcf From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 8 14:19:43 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: BA23 termination. Message-ID: Does the BA23 have a bus terminator in it or something? I just noticed that neither of these (11/73 or 11/83) have Qbus terminators. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Nov 8 14:36:55 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: BA23 termination. In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 8, 97 02:19:43 pm Message-ID: <9711082036.AA21339@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 23525 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971108/5640ad6b/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 8 14:57:23 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: VAXstation II tapes Message-ID: Hi, I seem to have a problem. I just got a VAXstation II, and it came with a whole box of TK50-K tapes. I've a bad feeling that these are blank tapes though, double bad since I'm suspecting that the system needs to be reloaded. I'll give a detailed writeup of the problems I'm having later on (I forgot to make notes when I had it powered up). The only identificaton on any of the tapes is a small white label with numbers on it. Some of the numbers on each tape are printed, others hand written. I've a bad feeling that these are simply backup tapes, in which case I don't know if they'll do me any good or not. The other possibility is that they are for something called "RS/1". If anyone can tell me what these are I'd appreciate it. Printed Hand Written ------- ------------------ 525810 5-0-0 41 525865 6-0-0 (a crossed out 96 with 117 under it) 525869 19-0-1 21 525871 10-1-0 23 525952 9-0-0 81 525959 1-0-0 70 525993 9-0-1 75 526044 23-2-0 57 Since I assume these aren't the VMS distribution tapes, does anyone know how I can get them? I'm aware of the Hobbiest License for OpenVMS, but I think it's to new of a version to run on my VAXstation II/RC. There is also the problem with the Hobbiest version of it comes on CD-ROM. All the OS manuals that I've got are for MicroVMS/VMS 4.4 Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 8 15:33:34 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: This is great! Message-ID: NS if this is true or not, but it's funny! The system programmer group writing TOPS-10 use to love fancy TECO programs and had a weekly contest for them. One guru working on FORTRAN compilers would read them carefully but never enter one. They thought he was just concentrating on compilers. Then one week he submitted a macro that did FORTRAN compilation, complete with optimization. The TECO program took days to run, but it worked. Apparently he had written a PDP-10 instruction set eumlator in TECO and fed the compiler into it! From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 8 15:51:38 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711082151.AA23107@world.std.com> <> IE: altair was importnat because it was relatively cheap. < Message-ID: <3464E785.8224D426@cnct.com> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > on my ps for my atari 400 it says the output is 9v ac but im not sure if the > plug is center positive or not. anyone have tapes for the 400? i have the > "program recorder" but nothing to use in it. > > david Uh, "center positive" really doesn't apply to alternating current. Except half of the time. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Nov 8 16:29:49 1997 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <19971108160305.AAB23301@hotze> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971108172949.00741e44@mail.wincom.net> At 06:59 PM 11/8/97 +0300, you wrote: >Now.... just for fun, try to get a modern PC, drop it on your toe (A >sacrifice for science) and then watch it break into DOZENS of piece. Chip >out of socket, RAM out of socket, motherboard out of case, power supply out >of case, HDD crashed, disk drive not in a working condition, CD-ROM drive's >laser swears that there's no disk in. They don't make 'em like they used >to!!! > >---------- I tried to lift an AT off a five foot high shelf, loose cover, dropped it, got my knee under it... mistake! AT ok, knee somewhat bent. Cheers Charlie Fox From bmpete at swbell.net Sat Nov 8 16:47:36 1997 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3465eb80.1345827@mail.swbell.net> > At 23:18 11/7/97 +0000, you wrote: >I am conviced that a lot of people (probably not on this list) wouldn't >know a well-designed or well-built computer if it was dropped on them... If you drop it on my toes, I'd notice. But if it's aimed at my head... (In either case, I'd claim it for my own.) _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From aperson at dangerous-minds.com Sat Nov 8 16:56:54 1997 From: aperson at dangerous-minds.com (aperson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 Documentation and Plans. Message-ID: <3464EE35.2D6E@dangerous-minds.com> Hello, I was wondering if you knew where I could get documentation for the old Altair 8800 system. Plans/kit would be cool, too, but I don't really expect to find that. thanks. :) From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 8 17:44:39 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Amiga 1000 (was:My Recent find) References: Message-ID: <3464F967.965E05BA@cnct.com> Doug Spence wrote: > I've actually got a 5.25" disk drive for it now, too. It can read C= 1541 > disks into a .dsk file for emulators in about 12 seconds, which is pretty > cool. And Apple ][ disks in about 17 seconds (must be lamer programming). > Too bad I don't have anything to WRITE to those formats, though I suspect > writing to a 1541 format wouldn't work. Lamer disk format. There's a delay when reading Apple disks due to the need to determine where each track actually starts, since Apple ignored the sector detect hole. Yes, I understand why Woz made that decision. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 8 17:53:18 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: apollo computers? References: Message-ID: <3464FB6E.EA646C91@cnct.com> Bjorn T. Eng wrote: > > Hey! I know Apollos! :) > > The first system-admin task I had (1984) was to admin a network of Apollo > workstations we used for CAD. As others have mentioned, The Apollo OS > (Aegis) is not Unix, but it's pretty similar to a user. (Though not to an > admin...) Even when two operating systems are officially Unix, they're not very similar to a sysadmin. Those are the tools and commands that vary the most from one vendor to another and even from one release to another from one vendor as anybody who had to go from Solaris 2.4 to 2.5 can attest. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Sat Nov 8 18:26:57 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711090026.TAA00158@zephyr.cacm.org> On Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:15:17 -0600 (CST), Mr. Seagraves was heard to remark: > We should build a computer from discrete components, just to operate > one. And connect it to the Internet. Of course, we'd never finish > in out lifetimes, and it would fill a room, but it would be awful > cool! I know, personally, of a chap in Germany who is, at this moment, putting the finishing touches on a modern-day vacuum-tube computer. I'm looking forward to seeing the designs and writing a simulator for it so we may all have fun. Computers aren't all _that_ hard to design and build! Just remember that you don't _need_ all the instruction-set bloat that's so common nowadays. Think RISC. Of course, before there was CISC/RISC there was... well "RISC". The first time I heard of RISC the though that popped into my mind was: "Finally! Back to basics!". ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 8 19:17:54 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: Message-ID: <34650F42.2F955D9B@cnct.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Ehehe... We should build a computer from discrete components, just to > operate one. And connect it to the Internet. Of course, we'd never > finish in out lifetimes, and it would fill a room, but it would be awful > cool! Does anybody but me remember the Byte cover (1976, I think) of a 4-bit computer built from transistors, diodes, etc. and wire? (No boards or anything). There was a followup picture in the magazine some months later after the cat had knocked it off the desk. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 8 19:57:49 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:29 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. References: <199711081620.AA05369@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3465189C.E9E7816F@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > That was 64bits of internal storage and that is different from a 64bit > parallel CPU. Also 613khz is slow. Not that slow. Depends what you do with the clock. Remember that a Motorola 6809 running at .8 Mhz (800 Khz) could always beat an Intel 8088 running at 4.77 Mhz by at least 25% and usually 50% in tests I used. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 7 20:25:43 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711072350.AA25984@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Nov 7, 97 03:50:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1116 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971108/55175679/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.nospam.net Sat Nov 8 20:05:29 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.nospam.net (Roger Sinasohn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Free: Vax 11/750 computer Message-ID: <199711090207.UAA27397@rgate.metricom.com> I've got place to put it and no way to get it there. Maybe someone else does? In ba.market.computers, Graham Freeman wrote: > FREE - You pick up - VAX 11/750 monster computer. Three units - >two the size of a full-size home refrigerator and another the size of an >economy clothes washer. Call or e-mail if you're interested. Units are >located in Davis, California. >Graham Freeman graham@madre.com >(530)753-0650 - voice (530)759-4184 - pager ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Sat Nov 8 20:46:16 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Free: Vax 11/750 computer In-Reply-To: <199711090207.UAA27397@rgate.metricom.com> Message-ID: OK, this has been bugging me for some time... Why are there very few VAX 11/725s in collections, yet plenty of the /730 and /750 models? Were the little 11/725s made in small numbers? William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 8 21:12:33 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711081459.JAA00380@zephyr.cacm.org> from "Carl R. Friend" at Nov 8, 97 09:59:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1398 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971109/62604499/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 8 20:57:41 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711080446.AA01847@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 7, 97 11:46:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971109/74e2faa4/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Sat Nov 8 21:01:33 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711090026.TAA00158@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: > I know, personally, of a chap in Germany who is, at this moment, > putting the finishing touches on a modern-day vacuum-tube computer. > I'm looking forward to seeing the designs and writing a simulator for > it so we may all have fun. I would certainly like to find out how he is doing this - his life depends on this... While it may be a very interesting experiment, finding out what could have been done at some point in history (like that Thor Heyerdal (sp?) guy), it could also be a bit damaging to other fields. Some vintage parts are really drying up and make accurate restorations VERY difficult and/or expensive. This is very evident in the old tube (valve, bottle, etc.) field. Some of the tubes I need for restorations are next to impossible to find these days, unless I pay large amounts from the audio people (I have little love for them). While some of the tube types are not suitable for computers, some are. I certainly hope he is using some of the more common types that can be purchased by the bushell. > Computers aren't all _that_ hard to design and build! Just remember > that you don't _need_ all the instruction-set bloat that's so common > nowadays. Think RISC. Of course, before there was CISC/RISC there > was... well "RISC". The first time I heard of RISC the though that > popped into my mind was: "Finally! Back to basics!". Of course, once you start playing with tubes - lots of them - problems come up that are not usually found when using TTL. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 8 21:05:20 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Finds & Questions In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971107234351.32c7e4ee@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Nov 8, 97 01:45:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1874 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971109/a9da2e29/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Nov 8 21:03:05 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971109030305.006a5a74@pop3.concentric.net> I have a copy let me know what you need. John At 08:06 AM 11/5/97 -0500, you wrote: > Not yet a classic, but does anyone have a {spare} copy of the "Technical >Reference Personal Computer AT"? This is the tech ref guide for the original >IBM PC/AT, published by IBM (I'm guessing in a gray fabric binder). > > TIA! > >Rich Cini/WUGNET > > Charter ClubWin! Member > MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > > > > > > > From william at ans.net Sat Nov 8 21:06:59 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > they are - and yes, sometimes this requires profanity. However, let's > > save the "heavy language" for times when we really need it (like when > > you drop a mini on your foot :-) ). With all of this talk about dropping computer equipment on our feet, lets just all take a minute to remind ourselves to secure any hard disk heads. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Nov 8 21:21:49 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Hit the jackpot Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971109032149.00689bf0@pop3.concentric.net> Yes it has the side pins and based your other information it is a controller unit. I getting orders for the boards now, but will be letting them go by the end of this week. On the 14th or 15th I will start e-mail to all who have asked for one. John At 06:11 AM 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote: > >On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > >> Hello to all >> Had a pretty slow week last week only a few finds will later in week. Today >> I got a box load of SYM-1's somewere betweeen 15 and 20 of them. > >That's exceptionally cool. When do you start taking orders? :) > >> I also got something called a IVS TRUMPCARD 500 by Interactive Video System >> and have no idea what it is, any help out there ? > >Does it have a female 86-pin edge connector on it? > >>From the name I suspect it's a hard drive controller and RAM card for the >Amiga 500. External. I base my guess on: > >1) "TrumpCard" - This was definitely the name of some hardcards for the > A2000, and I think there were A500 models as well. > >2) "Interactive Video System" - With a name like that, there's a darn good > chance the company was in the Amiga > market. > >3) 500 - As in Amiga 500. > >Of course, as usual, I'm separated from my magazines so I can't go poking >around looking. I think I'll have to move a representative sample into my >room so that this situation is less likely in future. > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > > > From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Nov 9 00:47:24 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <34655C7B.ADCAD170@batelco.com.bh> I've recently heard of someone who told me about an 8080 laptop from someone who has been into computers longer than I have. He said that there was a laptop... in the 1970's, that was smaller than the origional Compaq. It was soupossed to only have a little RAM, and it was used by journalists, who would connect with a modem an upload the files. Is this true? If so, what on earth ever happened to these? (Does this sound like something else... H/PC come to mind? From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 8 21:59:55 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: More on VAXstation problem Message-ID: Hi, Well, I'm hoping someone can give me some advice on this, but thanks to extensive use of DejaNews I've a bad feeling I know what the problem is. Here is the boot sequence. {Asks to select Language} {Asks US or UK} Performin normal system tests. 7..6..5..4..3.. Tests completed Loading system software. 2.. ?54 RETRY 2.. When it's coming up it sounds like the HD spins up, and then as soon as it hits the "Loading system software" it sounds like it spins down. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 8 22:01:06 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. Message-ID: <199711090401.AA09164@world.std.com> <> That was 64bits of internal storage and that is different from a 64bit <> parallel CPU. Also 613khz is slow. < Message-ID: <346541BF.724B4E40@rain.org> aperson wrote: > Hello, I was wondering if you knew where I could get > documentation for the old Altair 8800 system. Plans/kit > would be cool, too, but I don't really expect to find that. > thanks. :) Sure, take a look at the January and February 1975 issues of Popular Electronics! What is it you need? From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 8 23:14:11 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: More on VAXstation problem Message-ID: <199711090514.AA11290@world.std.com> At 01:45 11/8/97 -0600, you wrote: >HP 75D with 9114 disk drive -- $25 >....Anyway, if anyone has *any* info about it, I'd love to hear from you. I >tried HP's site and all I got was that it's discontinued, not supported, and >replaced by a newer handheld.... The 75D, demonstrating a logic rare in HP model numbers, is the immediate successor of the 75C, often described as "HP's first fully portable computer." They were, IIRC, made in Singapore and not anywhere near as common as the later HP handhelds; this was one of those cases where HP saw the light bulb before the customers did. The 75x is not pricey, as you discovered, but not easy to find, and undoubtedly significant. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sun Nov 9 00:37:34 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971108223546.5067b64c@ricochet.net> At 06:47 AM 11/9/97 +0000, you wrote: >I've recently heard of someone who told me about an 8080 laptop from >someone who has been into computers longer than I have. He said that >there was a laptop... in the 1970's, that was smaller than the origional >Compaq. It was soupossed to only have a little RAM, and it was used by >journalists, who would connect with a modem an upload the files. Is >this true? If so, what on earth ever happened to these? (Does this >sound like something else... H/PC come to mind? That would be the Radio Shack Model 100. 8085 processor, 8K-32K RAM, simple text editor, basic, and comm pgm built in. See: Andy Diller's site Club 100 Model 100 Mailing List Tri-Mike Network East I love 'em myself. I'm working on an alphapaging program so I can use one as a dedicated paging station. There are, btw, *still* a lot of journalists who use them, especially in areas where reliability is important. (They have no moving parts.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 9 00:20:57 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: VAXstation II, now different problem Message-ID: Hi, I _THINK_ I found the problem that I was having. It appears that the HD cables weren't attached, only the power (weird that). Just prior to this I found out about the LED counter on the back of the unit and found that it was sitting on "1" despite the fact the counter on the screen was "2". According to the Hardware manual this means that the bootstrap device might not contain bootable system software. OK, now I've got the HD plugged in and am hoping things will go better. Foolish me. Now it just sits there on "2". Doesn't even give me the "?54 RETRY" message, it simply sounds like it starts to spin down the HD, and then immediatly spins it back up. It's been sitting like this for a while now. Nothing. Even the LED on the back says "2". Oh, at least I found out I've got an RD53-A HD. Is there any difference between a RD53 HD and a RD53-A HD, or are they the same thing? Anyone have any ideas on this? It's starting to look to me as if someone pulled out the original HD to put in a machine that needed a good one. Then they put the bad on in this machine, but for some reason took the time to plug in the power. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Nov 9 00:47:44 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Stuff Available Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971108224744.02fdb2f4@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi All: Here are some odds and ends available for offers and cost of shipping: 1. DG color monitor, model 6423, 15" 2. Sun 2/50 with 17" mono monitor 3. Sun 17" mono monitor Please email me if you're interested. I'm in Vancouver, BC. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From spc at armigeron.com Sun Nov 9 00:54:17 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <34650F42.2F955D9B@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Nov 8, 97 08:17:54 pm Message-ID: <199711090654.BAA19991@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Ward Donald Griffiths III once stated: > > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > Ehehe... We should build a computer from discrete components, just to > > operate one. And connect it to the Internet. Of course, we'd never > > finish in out lifetimes, and it would fill a room, but it would be awful > > cool! > > Does anybody but me remember the Byte cover (1976, I think) of a 4-bit > computer built from transistors, diodes, etc. and wire? (No boards or > anything). There was a followup picture in the magazine some months > later after the cat had knocked it off the desk. I remember in late 85, Byte having two articles about a guy that built his own computer (CPU from scratch no less). Ah for Byte to have such articles again ... -spc (Once Steve Ciarcia stopped writing, I stopped reading ... ) From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 9 01:20:05 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Old stuff References: <3.0.32.19971107201940.00f66830@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <34656425.6E808E08@cnct.com> Kip Crosby wrote: > > At 03:34 11/8/97 GMT, you wrote: > >....in my experience > >with IBM network cards, if they're a round (i.e. BNC) connector, > >they're probably the old "baseband" stuff that uses lots of coax cable > >and a hub/amplifier, and work only with IBM PC-LAN Program and > >NetBEUI....the number 2Mb/sec comes > >to mind.... > > Are we talking about Arcnet here? When I think 2Mb/sec, BNC connector, and > 8-bit bus, I think Arcnet, but there may have been others.... If the cards are _branded_ IBM, chances are well over ten to one that they are Token Ring. IBM never touched Arcnet, and was hesitant about Ethernet. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 9 01:27:43 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference References: <0564454071305b7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <346565EF.FBAA0BE0@cnct.com> Richard A. Cini wrote: > > Not yet a classic, but does anyone have a {spare} copy of the "Technical > Reference Personal Computer AT"? This is the tech ref guide for the original > IBM PC/AT, published by IBM (I'm guessing in a gray fabric binder). The AT came out in 1984. Despite my own prejudice against the damned thing, it qualifies under the charter of this mailing list. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 9 01:32:20 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference References: <971105113923_1624330893@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <34656704.9B13C595@cnct.com> Aperiodic@aol.com wrote: > > Speaking of reference manuals, does anyone have any information / insights > into a Visual Technologies Commuter? Manf in 1984, it uses two Intel chips > (8086 and 8088) with a plethora of RAM chips not to mention at least four > program subroutines. The manufacturer seems to have disowned this particular > unit since two people in their tech department have not heard of it. No surprise, staff turns over. Ask anybody at your local Radio Shack about any computer with a TRS-80 or even Tandy logo. Hell, it probably wouldn't require that big a sample to find two "techies" at Volkswagen who never heard of the Beetle, let alone the Dasher. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sun Nov 9 02:21:53 1997 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: German tube based computer References: <199711090026.TAA00158@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: <346572A1.3D79@digiweb.com> Carl R. Friend wrote: > I know, personally, of a chap in Germany who is, at this moment, > putting the finishing touches on a modern-day vacuum-tube computer. > I'm looking forward to seeing the designs and writing a simulator for > it so we may all have fun. I'd be interested in knowing more about this. It would be cool to have a 1997 CCC listing for a tube machine. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sun Nov 9 02:22:05 1997 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: Message-ID: <34657026.1993@digiweb.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Ehehe... We should build a computer from discrete components, just to > operate one. And connect it to the Internet. Of course, we'd never > finish in out lifetimes, and it would fill a room, but it would be awful > cool! Well, the Manchester University SSEM is almost running (see ) . Its based on valves (tubes) and has a "massive" memory of 32 words each of 32 bits. Now who can squeeze TCP stack into that ;-) I think that building replicas of some of the original machines makes perfect sense. -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Sun Nov 9 03:52:37 1997 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Trash Message-ID: <01IPSIU1K4088Y5C8S@AC.GRIN.EDU> > So, what do you people think I should do when I just can't keep a computer > much longer? I don't want to trash them, but things like XTs, 286s, etc? What > can I do but throw them away when I have no room? You can almost always find somebody who can use an extra computer. Schools, non-profit organizations, somebody will want your old machines, especially if you have a bit of software to go with them. If you don't want 'em, give 'em away. In fact, I seem to recall a group of Lisas (?) that some on the list were interested in being donated to a school for developmentally disabled children. -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH It is good to rock. It is very good to rock wearing a big ass pumpkin on your head. It is very, very good if that pumpkin is on fire. --Jessica Stern From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Nov 9 06:29:41 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there In-Reply-To: <199711041102.DAA05486@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, PG Manney wrote: > >>> I'm new at collecting classics. What is a VIC-20? > >> > >>The VIC-20 was Commodore's first computer...2K of RAM (I think), did sounds > >>and color TV screen stuff. > > > >Actually it's far from thier first. There was several models of the PET, > > Whoops! of course...and didn't they make a calculator or two? Yes, they made quite a few calculator models. I've only seen one myself. My father used it in his engineering work many years ago. I now have it, and although it is functional, a friend that I lent it to smashed the case up pretty badly by accidentally hurtling it against a cement floor. It's a PR-100 programmable scientific calculator. It has one of those very intense orange displays (I forget what the technology is). My father says that the engineering firm he worked for used to have tons of Commodore equipment around. Mostly mechanical adding machines and office furniture. :) I've been running into far more Commodore furniture recently than Commodore computers. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From scottk5 at ibm.net Sun Nov 9 09:27:26 1997 From: scottk5 at ibm.net (scottk5@ibm.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Old stuff Message-ID: <199711091330.NAA99344@out2.ibm.net> On 1997-11-09 classiccmp@u.washington.edu said to scottk5@ibm.net >X-Sender: ward@news2.cnct.com >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN >Kip Crosby wrote: >> At 03:34 11/8/97 GMT, you wrote: >> >....in my experience >> >with IBM network cards, if they're a round (i.e. BNC) connector, >> >they're probably the old "baseband" stuff that uses lots of coax >>cable >and a hub/amplifier, and work only with IBM PC-LAN Program >>and >NetBEUI....the number 2Mb/sec comes >> >to mind.... >> Are we talking about Arcnet here? When I think 2Mb/sec, BNC >>connector, and 8-bit bus, I think Arcnet, but there may have been >others.... If the cards are _branded_ IBM, chances are well over >ten to one that they are >Token Ring. IBM never touched Arcnet, and was hesitant about >Ethernet. -- >Ward Griffiths If any of those network cards ARE token-ring and have BNC connectors, I would love to buy a couple. I got an old Token ring MAU several years ago that has BNC ports and would like to try it out. Can't tell you how many people have flat out denied that Token Ring was ever carried over coax! But the existence of the MAU is proof enough that at one time it was done. Kirk Scott scottk5@ibm.net Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Nov 9 10:35:53 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Building A Computer from Scratch (was:Classic Computer Rescue Squad) References: <199711090654.BAA19991@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <3465E668.59DCBBB7@batelco.com.bh> That's what I said about 3 weeks ago. We should make a computer, possibly from our own design, from common components. Was anyone here into processor engineering in the "early days", if so, I have a pretty good idea where (if we want) we can get a board-maker for about $200, which might also be able to do single-layer chips. Also, we could probably get our hands on some of Intel's old stuff... they had a page for that on their site, but I forget where. We could use components that were marking points in history... a 5.25" floppy, for example. Hope that this idea evolves, Tim D. Hotze PS-Does anyone know where I can get old PC Mag issues? Or any other major magazine? Captain Napalm wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Ward Donald Griffiths III once stated: > > > > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > > > Ehehe... We should build a computer from discrete components, just to > > > operate one. And connect it to the Internet. Of course, we'd never > > > finish in out lifetimes, and it would fill a room, but it would be awful > > > cool! > > > > Does anybody but me remember the Byte cover (1976, I think) of a 4-bit > > computer built from transistors, diodes, etc. and wire? (No boards or > > anything). There was a followup picture in the magazine some months > > later after the cat had knocked it off the desk. > > I remember in late 85, Byte having two articles about a guy that built his > own computer (CPU from scratch no less). Ah for Byte to have such articles > again ... > > -spc (Once Steve Ciarcia stopped writing, I stopped reading ... ) From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Nov 9 10:36:13 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" References: <1.5.4.16.19971108223546.5067b64c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3465E67C.293E4C2B@batelco.com.bh> OK. By the way, speaking of "sub-laptops", does anyone know what kind of models might be good for me? I just pretty much want to be able to take notes; etc. Windows CE is cheap enough for me, but they're keyboards aren't for REAL people. Possibly an Apple Newton? Or are there any classics that have a keyboard large enough to type on(not two-finger typing.) ? Where can I get one of these Radio Shack 100's? Uncle Roger wrote: > At 06:47 AM 11/9/97 +0000, you wrote: > >I've recently heard of someone who told me about an 8080 laptop from > >someone who has been into computers longer than I have. He said that > >there was a laptop... in the 1970's, that was smaller than the origional > >Compaq. It was soupossed to only have a little RAM, and it was used by > >journalists, who would connect with a modem an upload the files. Is > >this true? If so, what on earth ever happened to these? (Does this > >sound like something else... H/PC come to mind? > > That would be the Radio Shack Model 100. 8085 processor, 8K-32K RAM, simple > text editor, basic, and comm pgm built in. See: > > Andy Diller's site > Club 100 > Model 100 Mailing List > Tri-Mike Network East > > I love 'em myself. I'm working on an alphapaging program so I can use one > as a dedicated paging station. There are, btw, *still* a lot of journalists > who use them, especially in areas where reliability is important. (They > have no moving parts.) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From adam at merlin.net.au Sun Nov 9 07:51:04 1997 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: >OK. By the way, speaking of "sub-laptops", does anyone know what kind of models >might be good for me? I just pretty much want to be able to take notes; etc. >Windows CE is cheap enough for me, but they're keyboards aren't for REAL >people. >Possibly an Apple Newton? Or are there any classics that have a keyboard large >enough to type on(not two-finger typing.) ? Where can I get one of these Radio >Shack 100's? An alternative to the 100 is the Amstrad Notepad (NC-100), which I found to be pretty good for notes, and is somewhat more recent. Not that recent, though - it uses the Z80A. Adam. From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 9 08:21:19 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" References: <1.5.4.16.19971108223546.5067b64c@ricochet.net> <3465E67C.293E4C2B@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <3465C6DF.DE4C58F3@cnct.com> HOTZE wrote: > > OK. By the way, speaking of "sub-laptops", does anyone know what kind of models > might be good for me? I just pretty much want to be able to take notes; etc. > Windows CE is cheap enough for me, but they're keyboards aren't for REAL people. > Possibly an Apple Newton? Or are there any classics that have a keyboard large > enough to type on(not two-finger typing.) ? Where can I get one of these Radio > Shack 100's? One of the best features of the Model 100 is its keyboard, in fact the designers sacrificed screen size to allow the keys to be full size and a good feel. That's another thing that made them so polular with reporters. As to where to get them, we're back to garage sales, swap meets and second-hand shops. The SO would kill me if I let one go myself. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 9 08:38:34 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: <199711090654.BAA19991@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <3465CAEA.9595DFA@cnct.com> Captain Napalm wrote: > I remember in late 85, Byte having two articles about a guy that built his > own computer (CPU from scratch no less). Ah for Byte to have such articles > again ... > > -spc (Once Steve Ciarcia stopped writing, I stopped reading ... ) For quite a few years, every time McGraw-Hill discontinued a magazine, my subscription would be converted to Byte, much like Ziff-Davis and Creative Computing back in the mid 80s. About the only thing I'd consistently read was Pournelle's column, not so much for the computer info but for the fact that sometimes there's news from home. Nowadays, his column is available at byte's web site and at long last the Byte subscription ran out of cannibalistic extensions. In case you hadn't noticed it, Ciarcia for some years now has had his own magazine, Circuit Cellar Ink. It's easy to miss, since few stores seem to carry it. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Nov 9 09:24:02 1997 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Sun keyboard/mouse Message-ID: <04a5c02271509b7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> I got my Sun 3/50 working the other day (bad flyback transformer in the monitor), but now I need a keyboard/mouse. I think that I need a "type 3" keyboard and a mouse. Does anyone have a spare to sell? Also, does anyone know the specs of the "shoebox" external hard drive? TIA! Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin! Charter Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Networking From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Nov 9 10:15:07 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711090654.BAA19991@armigeron.com> References: <34650F42.2F955D9B@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971109081507.006cf580@ferrari.sfu.ca> At 01:54 AM 97/11/09 -0500, you wrote: >> > Ehehe... We should build a computer from discrete components, just to >> > operate one. And connect it to the Internet. Of course, we'd never >> > finish in out lifetimes, and it would fill a room, but it would be awful >> > cool! I still have a copy of Popular Electronics from September 1972, where the cover mentions a device built from a 4 bit ALU (TTL series, I forget the exact number). "Build a digital logic computer" is the title of the article, and it's described as a "logic trainer" within. It had no RAM, clock, or anything, it was simply an ALU wired to 2 banks of 4 switches, and a rotary switch configured to select one of the 8 or 16 operations supported by the ALU. If I'd built it I'm sure I would've tired of 4 bit boolean operations pretty quickly. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 9 10:25:08 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: VAXstation II, now different problem Message-ID: <199711091625.AA06623@world.std.com> <> Does anybody but me remember the Byte cover (1976, I think) of a 4-bit <> computer built from transistors, diodes, etc. and wire? (No boards or <> anything). There was a followup picture in the magazine some months <> later after the cat had knocked it off the desk. the first BYTE cover was sept 1976 and there was never such article around then. There are two I remember the first was a terminally simple machine of extreme limitations that illustrated microprogramming (simple TTL) and was very low parts count. The other in the Aug and Sept 1985 Bytes called EGO and was a 16bit general purpose machine using mostly TTL SSI/MSI (74181 was the most complex part). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 9 10:25:32 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Old stuff Message-ID: <199711091625.AA06850@world.std.com> >>b QNA0: telling it to use the network adaptor if installed(an M7504 or 7516). My guess is that the Microvax was gutted for the disks as RD53s are generally small for them. At 00:21 11/10/97 +1030, you wrote: >>OK. By the way, speaking of "sub-laptops", does anyone know what kind of models >>might be good for me? I just pretty much want to be able to take notes.... >>are there any classics that have a keyboard large >>enough to type on(not two-finger typing.) ? Where can I get one of these Radio >>Shack 100's? There is a great machine called the AlphaSmart Pro, which is an RS 100 with a faster processor, PC and Mac data ports, etc. They're almost unheard of because they're sold only through the educational channel, but you can buy from the manufacturer. I think it's $295. If you have more money, want a real screen, and go for really gorgeous looks, Apple has finally started selling the eMate to individuals -- basically it's a Newton with a screen and keyboard in one piece. It's $800 and only comes in jade-green. If I had any real money I'd buy either of these tomorrow. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 9 12:00:30 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: VAXstation II tapes In-Reply-To: <199711091625.AA06732@world.std.com> Message-ID: Allison, Thanks for all the advice. I did some more research last night and it's looking as if my best bet is to either get a ESDI controller and drive, or a RD54, or another VAX and simply boot over the network. A VAXstation 3000 something with built in SCSI is sounding awfully nice right now :^) Beware I might have some questions on the procedure with the Hard Drive that you were talking about, if I can work up the nerve :^) >If you have the hardware manuals you may not have the orange or grey wall. >What's that? The full VMS doc set is atleast 17 volumes of the 1.5-2" >looseleaf binder size and they are chock full of everything about the OS >and device programming info. Orange corrosponds to V4 and Grey is the V5. I've got the Hardware Manuals (two in one binder), and a good chunk of the orange wall (8 volumes). Everything is VMS v4.4, which is fine. I've really no desire to run Ultrix, which is the extent of my previous experience with DEC stuff. Thanks again, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 9 12:39:11 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" References: <3.0.32.19971109094417.00f5f100@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <3466034F.53998B3F@cnct.com> Kip Crosby wrote: > There is a great machine called the AlphaSmart Pro, which is an RS 100 with > a faster processor, PC and Mac data ports, etc. They're almost unheard of > because they're sold only through the educational channel, but you can buy > from the manufacturer. I think it's $295. That description would have to be considered inaccurate, it's only got a four-line display. And no programability -- it's basically a just a text editor with the ability to dump into a desktop box. Or so I get the impression from . I can't tell whether it could use a modem or not. It's definitely a descendent in its way, though. A _LOT_ more memory and I won't believe the claimed battery life until I've killed a set of Energizers in one. I'll be showing the picture from the web page to the SO -- something tells me that she'll want one -- it's cute. I'm intrigued that it supposedly will work as a replacement keyboard for a PC or a Mac. The web page says it's $185, and presently they throw in a carrying case. The keyboard on the SE/30 I bought a few weeks back is as bad as any other Mac keyboard I've avoided using over the years. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Nov 9 12:18:51 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: VAXstation II, now different problem In-Reply-To: <199711091625.AA06623@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971109101851.02ff238c@ferrari.sfu.ca> This RD53 spindown problem can also be caused by a spindle brake that does not retract fully when the drive is powered up! It rubs against the spindle and the drive shuts down. I fixed this by simply undoing the screw holding the brake solenoid and moving it back a little bit. My drive has been running for well over a year following this fix. Check this before opening the drive case! Kevin At 11:25 AM 97/11/09 -0500, you wrote: > > >< > >Zane, > >You have a bad RD53 like I said yesterday. The controller cannot/does not >command the drive to spin up/down as its an MFM drive. The cause for spin >down on RD53s is the head is not finding the servo track so it spins down >and retrys spinning up and finding the servo track. There is a fix for some >of them... > >The problem on the Micropolus 1325s is the head meck when powered down >sits against a rubber bumper and gets stuck there as the rubber decays. >The result is the head can't move. Possible fix, open the HDA (yes take the >cover off) while running and move then head manually till it aquires the >servo, put the cover and backup to tape if there is an OS on it. I have one >drive where I put some sticky lable on the bumper to salvage the drive and >it's held up for six months so far. The bumper in located in the voice coil >positioner and is visible to the eye. The head arm sits agaisnt it when >powered down. > >FYI: if you open it in a generally clean place ther is little risk of >contamination and even these "sealed" drives contain a internal air filter >to remove contaiminents. > >Generally RD53s with spin down not reliable and should be replaced. > >An RD53 is a microplus 1325 71mb MFM drive. For microvax use a RD54, >159mb MFM drive is more reliable an provides enough space. VMS will fit >on a RD53 if DECwindows and system libraries are not installed leaving >about 10mb free and makes for a cramped system. An RD54 will permit a >full VMS install and show have at least 20mb free making a very useable >system. A two drive system using a RD54 and an RD52(31mb), 53(71) or >RD54(159mb) for the second drive is a very good ssytem and can support >useful work. > >FYII: A VS2000 (a tiny microvax) is handy as it contains rom code that >can format and/or verify MFM drives. They also make pretty good VMS or >Ultrix systems in their own right of they have at least 4mb of ram >installed. > > >Allison > > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 9 12:40:39 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Old Magazines, was (Building A Computer from Scratch Squad) In-Reply-To: <3465E668.59DCBBB7@batelco.com.bh> References: <199711090654.BAA19991@armigeron.com> Message-ID: Hotze asked: >PS-Does anyone know where I can get old PC Mag issues? Or any other major >magazine? I wish I knew, we've got a place in town here, it's pretty big with a huge basement. They deal specifically in old magazines. I was in there a few months ago, and asked about this specifically. Despite the fact that they had a huge assortment of magazines from about the past 100 years, they only had about the last two months worth of a few computer magazines. According to them there just isn't the demand for the old magazines. In some ways it makes sense, but then who wants a 50 year old copy of some hunting and fishing magazine? About the only hope I see for finding such things are junk shops, and when I say junk shops I mean junky junk shops! There is a local outfit that's mainly surplus junk hardware, I found about a dozen copies of "Amiga World" there, but they were '92-'93 timeframe. One of the best bets might be to find an old packrat that might have some squirelled away. Of course then you might have to wait till they die to get them. I've had a little luck on the Apple side of things. A couple months ago I got my Apple //+ and it included the first three issues of the Apple // magazine that Apple put out. Last spring I managed to get the very first issue of MacWorld in great shape for only $4.00! This is the magazine where Bill Gates is saying that the Macintosh is the greatest computer ever. I've found a couple other magazines when I picked up complete systems, this only works when someone has done a good job of boxing up everything for a specific system, and then a few years later dumps everything. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sun Nov 9 14:39:34 1997 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Apollo books to give away] Message-ID: <34661F86.2826@digiweb.com> Found this on the web, thought someone would be interested Regards, -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type message/news From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 9 14:03:46 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711092003.AA01185@world.std.com> Hi All, Despite the fact I haven't been able to get my VAXstation to boot, I decided to take an inventory of what is in it. I've come up with one board I'm not 100% sure as to what it is, it's a memory board, but what size? The board in question is a "M7608-AP". I know what an -AA (2Mb) or -BA (4Mb) are, but what is a -AP board? Oh, and yes I'm sure it said -AP not -AA :^) Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Nov 9 15:29:24 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:30 2005 Subject: Space problems and Laser 128ex Message-ID: <971109162924_-2042946693@mrin38> In a message dated 97-11-08 09:01:35 EST, Alan Richards put forth: > > Does anyone have any ideas about this machine, specificaly I would like to > know how to break into the BASIC. On the Apple, I press CRTL and reset, but > this doesn't work on the Laser. I have just the regular 128 and it basically should work and act the same as a //c. The machine was supposedly 99% apple compatible, but I needed the 1% compatibility when aol supported the apple ][ and it wouldnt work with my laser! - should work, but i've noticed you cannot do it too quick. let go of the control key first, then reset. to get into the builtin "control panel" to setup your ports, press +"open apple"+

i think that's what it is. david From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 9 15:33:42 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: VAXstation II, now different problem Message-ID: <199711092133.AA24136@world.std.com> ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10: ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:19:07 (from mcquiggi@sfu.ca); Sun Hi there While searching for information on the Laser Computer(Video Technology Computer Ltd) I came across your letters I have a laser laptop LT321 which is in desprate nead of memory If you have any information regarding the computer or the memory it would be most helpful Ian (uk) From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Nov 9 11:05:45 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: VAXstation II, now different problem In-Reply-To: <199711092133.AA24136@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711092200.RAA28222@mail.cgocable.net> Big SNIP of junk... > > Worth checking for but spindown due to stuck head positioner is THE most > common problem with 1325 drives. > > Allison > It affects all 13xx series ones that has aluminum top with countersunk philips screws. I had to fix my 1355 (esdi 150mb) also and other one I could not recall. Good idea to check that brake too and see that felt is still alive and in right place. And house dusting in is in order also. They do have black plastic fan ring snapped onto motor housing. It has also alignment arrow heads. Suppose micropolis used silcone instead of that dumb natural black rubber pads we would not have to open them up by now! You can undo those 2 captive slotted scerw heads and hinge logic board up. Neato! Troll From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Nov 9 19:30:22 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: More on VAXstation problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971110123022.00a48eb0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 07:59 PM 11/8/97 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Hi, >Well, I'm hoping someone can give me some advice on this, but thanks to >extensive use of DejaNews I've a bad feeling I know what the problem is. >Here is the boot sequence. > >{Asks to select Language} > >{Asks US or UK} > >Performin normal system tests. > 7..6..5..4..3.. > >Tests completed > >Loading system software. > 2.. >?54 RETRY > 2.. > >When it's coming up it sounds like the HD spins up, and then as soon as it >hits the "Loading system software" it sounds like it spins down. Do you have more than one disk? One "interesting" possibility is that if you have two RA style disks and they have the same id number, you'll see this sort of behaviour. (The reason I know is that I had a 3500 with two disks set to different ids (0 and 1) and the unit selector on disk 1 failed, giving me two 0's - hard to debug at the time...). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 9 04:26:07 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711071710.AA16434@alph02.triumf.ca> References: from "Sam Ismail" at Nov 7, 97 08:36:42 am Message-ID: <199711100247.VAA02243@smtp.interlog.com> On 7 Nov 97 at 9:10, Tim Shoppa wrote: > [Sam Ismail's reply deleted so as to not offend the mailing-list > owner] > > Seeing as how I seem to have caused quite a ruckus with the Data > General computers that I'm trying to find a good home for, would > our esteemed mailing-list owner prefer me to unsubscribe from this > list to avoid any future problems? Or would a simple ban on my > opinions regarding currently-less-collectible (but still "classic" - > i.e. older than the Apple I, Altair, and IMSAI machines) > hardware be sufficient? > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > As an offender of mailing list protocol (mechanical calculators) in an intemporate rant re the sale online of Curta T-shirts (is that vague enough :^) ) I can only plead that YES you are needed in this list for your expertise as well as humor and good looks. Of course the offending poster was our man Sam ,but what would collecting be with-out passionate opinions. Christ-like self immolation is egotistical and boring. Carry on Tim. You're great !! A fellow member of that most-desired citizenry., CANADIAN ( we even make a beer by that name ) Wow Talk about an expandable thread. Like an accident will fill a deserted street. lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 9 04:26:07 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Old stuff In-Reply-To: <19971108040550.AAA8617@hotze> Message-ID: <199711100247.VAA02233@smtp.interlog.com> On 8 Nov 97 at 6:45, Hotze wrote: > If it's possible, could I take a IBM dot-matrix (or any other dot-matrix)? > By the way, I've tried all the computer retailers in my area, and they > don't have any classics. Any other places I should look? > Thanks, > > Tim D. Hotze > In Bahrain ? You've gotta be kidding unless Bahrain is a codename for innner amerika. lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 9 04:26:07 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <19971108161511.AAA24350@hotze> Message-ID: <199711100247.VAA02248@smtp.interlog.com> On 8 Nov 97 at 19:14, Hotze wrote: > You're right, also, they can make great places to keep things... convert a > black case into a storage area for you're CDS, empty out a power supply to > make an industrial-style case. Also, what are "popular" micros; I need to > start getting collecting, but I'm not sure what to start with. By the way, > that warehouse that was full of classics... what ever happened? When I say > "popular"; I mean what are good, not something that's worth money. (No > 5,000 pound Nova's, please) > Bye, > > Tim D. Hotze > Your problerm is that your starting with a passion for collecting rather than a passion for a particular machine, platform, or architechture . ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 9 04:26:08 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Trash In-Reply-To: <971108143856_193726386@mrin40.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199711100247.VAA02268@smtp.interlog.com> On 8 Nov 97 at 14:38, Zeus334@aol.com wrote: > So, what do you people think I should do when I just can't keep a computer > much longer? I don't want to trash them, but things like XTs, 286s, etc? What > can I do but throw them away when I have no room? > you can give it to someone who never dreamed of being able to afford one. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 9 04:26:07 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: References: <9711070046.AA17443@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199711100247.VAA02229@smtp.interlog.com> On 7 Nov 97 at 8:36, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > Computers each and every have significance, some because of new concepts, > > > new markets or in a few cases the scams and swindles behind them! There > > > were many unremarkable computers made and many while noteable were really > > > junk! > > > > Absolutely true. I do hope that the "classiccmp" mailing list doesn't > > go in the direction that Sam suggests, i.e. limiting discussion to > > computers considered "collectible" in the popular press. > > Now, when the fuck did I say that? Is there any one single place in my > previous message where I either explicitly or even implicitly suggested > what you are stating? If so, please do point it out. Otherwise, pull > your head from out of your ass, Tim. > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > Back off Sam It's not important and this isn't comp.sys. apple2 Control freaks .....Sheeeesh lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 9 04:26:08 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199711100247.VAA02261@smtp.interlog.com> On 8 Nov 97 at 10:27, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Well, Carl beat me with this point - history is _far_ more than just > > numbers. For example, how many ARPANET machines were ever in service? How > > many NSFnet machines? (About 40 for the curious ones out there). Yet look > > what THEY did - somehow I think that 500 years from now people are still > > going to talk about the start and explosion of the public global network. > > I would think that would certainly qualify as "socially significant". > > 500 years from now, if what I am trying to accomplish with the Vintage > Computer Festival succeeds, the machines which were truly significant from > a social context, meaning the ones which ran the banking system, the > airline system, government, etc. (in other words, the computers which were > the foundation of modern society), will be the ones which we remember, and > the Altair and others of its ilk will be merely novelties. > Oh say it isn't so. Hopefully the machines that are remembered will be those that were socially significant and architectually innovative, not those whose influence was popularity re: the accumulation of corporate lucre. > But that's 500 years from now. Or perhaps not that long. I say less than > 50...perhaps even less than 20. > Hmmm . Have you ever read Jack London's "Iron Heel" in which he predicts 500 years of fascist rule ? > > > Whether Novas are "wanted" is immaterial to the argument. Folks are > > > now virtually unaware of a piece of history, and an important one at > > > that. It's also a piece of history that's fast disappearing, which is > > > a rotten shame. > > > > If something is not wanted now, it may be wanted later (almost for sure, > > with bits of history, when they are "rediscovered"). All to many times, it > > is too late - did I just here someone mention Univac? > > The only thing I disagree with about your statement is that it "may" be > wanted later. That's wrong. It WILL be wanted later. It is important to > hang onto EVERY bit of hardware, software and documentation, no matter how > obscure, how uninspiring, how prevalent, how inspiring, etc. > > The fact is, some of us are providing a very imporant service to future > historians. Some of us are having fun with a hobby. Some of us are doing > both. There are no requirements. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com Right On !!! ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 9 04:26:08 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: STuff In-Reply-To: <3463889E.68AC@msnyc.org> Message-ID: <199711100247.VAA02271@smtp.interlog.com> On 7 Nov 97 at 16:31, Janet Paganelli wrote: > I have a bunch of wyse 60 terminals, a couple of 386's, an old printer > and various boards etc. Anyone interested. > "Janet Paganelli" > Any PS2 boards ? ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From zmerch at northernway.net Sat Nov 8 23:41:38 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Old stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971107201940.00f66830@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971108234138.00945490@mail.northernway.net> At 08:20 PM 11/7/97 -0800, Kip Crosby wrote: >At 03:34 11/8/97 GMT, you wrote: >>....in my experience >>with IBM network cards, if they're a round (i.e. BNC) connector, >>they're probably the old "baseband" stuff that uses lots of coax cable >>and a hub/amplifier, and work only with IBM PC-LAN Program and >>NetBEUI....the number 2Mb/sec comes to mind.... > >Are we talking about Arcnet here? When I think 2Mb/sec, BNC connector, and >8-bit bus, I think Arcnet, but there may have been others.... Several makers made Arcnet cards, including ... looking... Thomas-Conrad, who made both 8-bit and 16-bit 1/2 and full length cards... My employer gave me 40+ cards and a 16-port active hub... unforch 30 or so cards give their lives admirably to my CoCo hacking habits (needed the DIP switches, DIP sockets, 74LS series chips, etc...) but I did save 10 or so cards, and plan on setting up an Arcnet network sometime during the winter. This is what I remember: max. 255 nodes per network, 2.5 Mbit speed (which is gangbusters over 19.2Kbit RS-232 which is what I have now) and the max. distance between active hubs you could run was nearly a kilometer, IIRC. BTW, I seem to recall (but this may not be correct) that 2Mbit speed with DB-9 connectors were Lantastic cards -- they were a built-in computer with a Z-80, RAM buffer, Z-80 support chips and an optional boot ROM I think. Anywho, hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From gzozman at escape.ca Sun Nov 9 08:43:15 1997 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives Message-ID: <3465CC03.D76@escape.ca> Here's a silly question, but one I've never understood: Why can't a high density 5 1/4" disk be formatted in a double density drive? When I try, DOS returns a "Track 0 Bad" error message. I thought that a HD disk would simply have a denser coating of magnetic material applied evenly over the entire surface of the disk. I don't see why this should cause problems for a DD drive. However, a few questions come to mind. Is the magnetic coating of a different sensitivity, resulting in a weaker signal for the heads to pick up? Is the magnetic coating applied to the media in "tracks", causing problems when a different TPI spec is attempted on the disk? Since some of the software for my "old" (first generation PC) computers is on 5 1/4" disks of dubious condition, I would like to make copies onto new disks. Since HD disks are still readily available and cheap, I thought this would be an ideal way to do so. I also seem to have fried the 5 1/4" HD drive in my PC while sorting through some old software. It seems a couple of disks had some dirt on them which caused horrible screeching sounds when the disk was spinning, and also deposited a very hard black coating on the heads. The only way I could remove the deposits was to scratch it off with my fingernails (alcohol would not touch it). However, I must have bumped the heads out of alignment, because the drive won't read disks any longer. My question is: can I plug a Double Density drive into the same connector in my modern PC and use it for my old disks? I know I will have to change my BIOS setting, but is there anything else I need to consider? Any input on the above would be much appreciated... thanks in advance! Hope this isn't too far off topic. Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Nov 9 21:54:59 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: apple rgb monitor problems Message-ID: <971109225457_1104000529@mrin79> i need some help with an applecolor rgb monitor if anyone can. does anyone know any way of testing this monitor? i have one in the silver-gray colour that matches my mac IIcx yet, i cannot seem to get any video on it. i have tried using both a laser128 and a //c's rgb output into the monitor, but the only thing i can get is a deep blue screen with stable vertical lines with the //c, and a moving blue bar with the laser128 although they both can do rgb output and i was using the same cable. when i tested the monitor with my mac cx which has a 1 bit mono card, i did get video, but was difficult to read, and i got double images of the desktop. i've already tried every control accessable on the monitor too. unlike my vga monitors, this one does not produce a raster screen when no video cable is connected. is there anything else i can try short of round-filing the monitor? david From mark at cyberlightstudios.com Sun Nov 9 20:56:14 1997 From: mark at cyberlightstudios.com (Mark Tosiello) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711100355.WAA12780@diamond.gtii.com> If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first--Invent the Universe. ---Dr. Carl E. Sagan ---------- From: "Lawrence Walker" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:26:08 +0000 > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > 500 years from now, if what I am trying to accomplish with the Vintage > Computer Festival succeeds, the machines which were truly significant from > a social context, meaning the ones which ran the banking system, the > airline system, government, etc. (in other words, the computers which were > the foundation of modern society), will be the ones which we remember, and > the Altair and others of its ilk will be merely novelties. I'd reign in your desire to pidgeonhole computers into "novelties" vs "socially significant" if I were you. Not only is EVERY piece of hardware and software a legacy of the history of computing, but those "novelty" computers (the Commodores, the Altairs, the Apples) were more than just 8 bit precursors to the current wave of desktop technology...they were inextricably linked to the social mileux for whom, and in whose time, they were developed...a sign of the times as it were. Part of the mystique of the "novelty" computers of which you speak is the very fact that the design and function of the computer reflected a historic mindset, the widespread dissemiation and embracing of the IDEA of computing within the masses of society. It would be foolish and shortsighted to try to relegate certian aspects of computing history as "novelty" vs "foundation of modern society". I would remind you that some of the founders of the modern age of computing, architects of those computers you would no doubt find "socially significant", started out peeking and pokeing their way along an 8 bit piece of silicon that shaped far more influential commodities than the banking system or the stock market...it shaped their MINDS. A little respect for the grass roots of the computing age is in order. Mark Tosiello ("Soapbox mode off, Mr. Spock") From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 9 21:58:03 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives Message-ID: <199711100358.AA21395@world.std.com> would be helpful to you on this and other PC related problems. Allison From william at ans.net Sun Nov 9 22:21:21 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711100355.WAA12780@diamond.gtii.com> Message-ID: > > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > 500 years from now, if what I am trying to accomplish with the Vintage > > Computer Festival succeeds, the machines which were truly significant from > > a social context, meaning the ones which ran the banking system, the > > airline system, government, etc. (in other words, the computers which were > > the foundation of modern society), will be the ones which we remember, and > > the Altair and others of its ilk will be merely novelties. > > I'd reign in your desire to pidgeonhole computers into "novelties" vs > "socially significant" if I were you. Not only is EVERY piece of hardware Next time you want to turn your flamethrower on, please aim at the right person. You quoted me for something I did not say. William Donzelli william@ans.net From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Mon Nov 10 01:14:02 1997 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. References: <199711081620.AA05369@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3466B43A.225B@worldnet.att.net> Allison J Parent wrote: > That was 64bits of internal storage and that is different from a 64bit > parallel CPU. Also 613khz is slow. I'll have to do some research to back that number up. I picked it up on a web page and never actually double checked it. I've seen many allusions to the slow clock speed of the HP85 and I'm pretty sure it's below the 1 MHz. > > There are otehr 64bit cpus, some are in games and other embedded systems. > However the number of systems for general purpose computing using 64 bit > cpus are however few. > > Allison ------------------------------------------------------------ Francois Auradon Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From mark at cyberlightstudios.com Sun Nov 9 22:05:41 1997 From: mark at cyberlightstudios.com (Mark Tosiello) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711100504.AAA14473@diamond.gtii.com> If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first--Invent the Universe. ---Dr. Carl E. Sagan ---------- From: William Donzelli To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:21:21 -0500 (EST) > > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > I'd reign in your desire to pidgeonhole computers into "novelties" vs > "socially significant" if I were you. Not only is EVERY piece of hardware Next time you want to turn your flamethrower on, please aim at the right person. You quoted me for something I did not say. Damn software anyway.......would be nice if I learned to read, wouldn't it? Public apology hereby humbly expressed to William Donzelli, for inexplicably confusing him with the author of the quote to which I responded. Again, my mistake! Mark Tosiello William Donzelli william@ans.net From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Mon Nov 10 01:19:16 1997 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Finds & Questions References: <1.5.4.16.19971107234351.32c7e4ee@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3466B574.4314@worldnet.att.net> Uncle Roger wrote: > > Added a couple of things to my collection today: > 2 SE/30 logic boards, new in Apple service boxes -- $10 (probably put these > on ebay.) I would be interested in one of those if you want to get rid of them. Thanks ------------------------------------------------------------ Francois Auradon Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 10 01:15:33 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Hard Drive Bible Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971109231403.3597fb1e@ricochet.net> At 09:11 AM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >I 'd like to commend and thank Matt Pritchard for shipping the Hard Drive I'll second that! Thanks! (P.S., mine came in on Friday.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Nov 9 04:30:35 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711091625.AA06779@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971109043035.00c17da0@mail.northernway.net> At 11:25 AM 11/9/97 -0500, Allison wrote: >the first BYTE cover was sept 1976 and there was never such article around >then. There are two I remember the first was a terminally simple machine >of extreme limitations that illustrated microprogramming (simple TTL) and >was very low parts count. The other in the Aug and Sept 1985 Bytes called >EGO and was a 16bit general purpose machine using mostly TTL SSI/MSI (74181 >was the most complex part). examples and MSI medium scale integration such as 74181 or complex >counters.> I hate to sound like a Nick@Nite Retromercial, but "Sorry, Charlie!" ;^> As I wander into from my office to the furnace room (a now converted basement library) I dig up the earliest issue of Byte that I own. The cover shows May 1976, and in the table of contents it's listed as Issue #9. It also has a couple nice pix of the MOS Kim-1 (no Commie anywhere -- must be an *early* version) Holy-Moly -- something I've not heard about yet on the list -- Page 35 there's an ad for "Introducing the Micro-Altair -- The complete Computer System that requires just a keyboard and TV monitor for use." Kool. Anyway, just thought I'd toss my input into the ring... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Mon Nov 10 02:57:41 1997 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Qume? Message-ID: <199711100857.DAA01955@webern.cs.unc.edu> Today, for the first time in years, I got my old SwTPC S/09 to boot. (pause for applause to die down) But success was not total; floppy drive 0 works fine, but drive 1 just retracts to track 0 and makes a buzzing/grinding noise. I'm guessing that it wants to hit track 0 at the beginning of a seek, can't tell that it has made it there, and is struggling to retract past the legal limit. So, is anybody out there familiar with the mechanics of Qume 8" floppy drives? Is there a switch or optical sensor or something that tells it when it is at track 0? Or, from the description, is it possible/likely that this is an electrical failure, like a dead chip? Anybody got a service manual for one of these critters? Cheers, Bill. From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 04:11:19 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Old stuff In-Reply-To: <199711091625.AA06850@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > highly likely as IBM was a strong proponent for token ring. I've been reading the Options and Adapters Technical Reference... There was a card called the IBM PC Cluster Adapter. It was a full-length 8-bit card containing an Intel microcontroller (8035??), a couple of ROMs (one for the microcontroller, one as a BIOS extension for the PC), logic chips, etc. The only external connector looks to have been either a TNC (screw-lock BNC-like thing) or an F-socket (like a cable TV connector). Is that what you have? AFAIK it needs a special hub, and is not Token Ring (or at least, not standard token ring). > Obviously they never saw any of the WANG system that used it as the default > interconnect to EVERYTHING even POS terminals! Is that the infernal Wang interface that used a BNC and a TNC connector on every device? > > Allison > > -tony From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Nov 10 04:12:27 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711071553.AA26876@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > > Not a problem. I can get you a Nova 4 CPU+chassis, a DG terminal, a > > > 6045 14" disk drive, controller, and pack, and a 9-track tape drive, > > > all hooked together and running DG RDOS. > > > > How much space would a system like this take, and what kind of power is > > required to feed it? :) > > All the above fit together in a 5-foot-high rack that has a footprint > of about 22" wide x 36" deep. (OK, I'm assuming you sit the terminal > on top of the rack - a more realistic use would have the terminal > on a desk somewhere!) If I moved my brother's Mustang out of its snug insulated and heated compartment in our garage, there'd be enough room in there for SEVERAL of these machines, AND they'd be situated next to the circuit breakers. Now, how do I "disappear" a red Mustang convertible in a way that nobody notices? :) > You need a little bit of clearance behind the > rack so that you can run cables, and about 2 feet of clearance in front > to open the tape drive door or pull the disk drive out to change the > removable pack. Total weight is about a quarter-ton, and > current draw is 5-6 Amps (@120V) with the CPU and disk drive running; add > another 4 to 5 Amps if the tape drive is on and loaded. How well would a Nova survive winter weather during transit? Do you think CN or CP would be too rough with these things? :) > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 04:17:27 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" In-Reply-To: <199711090433.AA22156@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > Sounds bogus. The small laptops using 8080 (actually 8085) were the tandy > M-100s and there were also the Epson and NEC but none were before 1979. Why does nobody ever remember the Olivetti M10? This machine was a Tandy M100 clone - almost. The keyboard layout was different (the one I have has one fewer key than the Tandy 100), the display (40*8, of course) is hinged so you an slant it up to make it easier to read. The CPU board has a totally different layout to the Tandy M100, but it contains the same chips - and with the same references - if IC3 is the 8085 in the M100, it's the 8085 in the M10 as well). Oh, it also has a 40 pin header plug for the system bus (like a Tandy 102), but takes the 4-chip hybrids for RAM like the Tandy 100. > Allison -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 04:19:44 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. In-Reply-To: <3466B43A.225B@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Francois Auradon wrote: > Allison J Parent wrote: > > > That was 64bits of internal storage and that is different from a 64bit > > parallel CPU. Also 613khz is slow. > > I'll have to do some research to back that number up. I picked it up on > a web page and never actually double checked it. I've seen many > allusions to the slow clock speed of the HP85 and I'm pretty sure it's > below the 1 MHz. Are you sure you're talking about the HP85? The HP71 used the Saturn processor which had 64bit registers (although with a 4 bit ALU and 4 bit bus), and clocked it at 614kHz according to the tech manual I have. Sounds very much like it. > Francois Auradon -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 04:28:14 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Qume? In-Reply-To: <199711100857.DAA01955@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > But success was not total; floppy drive 0 works fine, but drive 1 > just retracts to track 0 and makes a buzzing/grinding noise. I'm > guessing that it wants to hit track 0 at the beginning of a seek, > can't tell that it has made it there, and is struggling to retract > past the legal limit. > > So, is anybody out there familiar with the mechanics of Qume 8" > floppy drives? Is there a switch or optical sensor or something > that tells it when it is at track 0? Or, from the description, is > it possible/likely that this is an electrical failure, like a dead > chip? Anybody got a service manual for one of these critters? I don't have the Qume service manual, but I've worked on a number of other 8" drives. In general there's a slotted optoswitch (an LED and a photodiode mounted facing each other) that is triggered by a piece of opaque material on the head carriage. The light is blocked when the heads get to track 0. A few (a very few) drives used a microswitch instead, but it should be easy to find out what you have by looking at the drive. The output of this sensor is sent to the disk controller (the Track00 signal on the cable). Only a very few drives also use it to inhibit the stepper on the drive itself. But sometimes the Trk00 signal is gated with a signal that says that the stepper is in a particular phase (the one corresponding to track 0, track 3, track 6, etc - these drives nearly all used 3-phase steppers) so that provided the sensor trips somewhere between track 3 and track 0, it will give the right output. You problem could be the sensor (unlikely, since common failure modes would cause it to be 'triggered' all the time), the drive logic, or even a dead wire in the cable (if the trk00 signal is not getting back to the controller). It shouldn't be too hard to trace the signal from the phototransistor to the Trk00 pin through the logic chips, though. > > Cheers, > Bill. > -tony From william at ans.net Mon Nov 10 06:42:12 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711100504.AAA14473@diamond.gtii.com> Message-ID: > Damn software anyway.......would be nice if I learned to read, wouldn't it? > Public apology hereby humbly expressed to William Donzelli, for inexplicably > confusing him with the author of the quote to which I responded. > > Again, my mistake! OK, then, mistakes happen. Apology accepted. William Donzelli william@ans.net From adam at merlin.net.au Mon Nov 10 07:05:55 1997 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: New finds and a question Message-ID: After a very poor start, my weekend ended up great - I picked up three Apple IIc's (which I didn't want as I already have two) for $10, but they came with some thirty manuals for most of the Apple II range (along with the Osborne Executive) and a number of books on the Apple IIs. Thinking this made for a good day, I was later given a Microbee with the Computer-in-a-Book drive,and a Dick Smith System 80. The Microbee was an Australian Z80 CP/M system, highly sucessful both as kits (as they originally were) and complete systems, especially in schools. I had been searching for one for a while, but had very little luck - everyone I knew who had one was too attached to it to let it go. The System 80 was a TRS-80 Model 1 clone, with some interesting modifications - most notably an inbuilt tape deck. Another computer I had been specifically looking for. :) Anyway, as to my question. The System 80 works fine, but it seems it needs a cable to connect to the monitor. The monitor uses a standard TV aerial connector, but the computer has a DIN. Fortunately I found a technical manual for the computer in one of my piles of manuals at home, and it lists the pin outs - one +5 volt, one ground, and one video output. It also has a diagram of the cable, and it seems it is just a plain cable with different plugs at each end. Knowing nothing about electronics, it seems to me that the TV plug has only two contacts, not three - anyone know how I make the cable? Or know where I might find a replacment? I'm sure this is a really stupid question but I am a mere programmer - technical stuff is way out of my league. Thanks heaps, Adam. From dastar at wco.com Mon Nov 10 08:21:38 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > 500 years from now, if what I am trying to accomplish with the Vintage > > > Computer Festival succeeds, the machines which were truly significant from > > > a social context, meaning the ones which ran the banking system, the > > > airline system, government, etc. (in other words, the computers which were > > > the foundation of modern society), will be the ones which we remember, and > > > the Altair and others of its ilk will be merely novelties. > > > > I'd reign in your desire to pidgeonhole computers into "novelties" vs > > "socially significant" if I were you. Not only is EVERY piece of hardware > > Next time you want to turn your flamethrower on, please aim at the right > person. You quoted me for something I did not say. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Mark, I take credit for the original posting. And you make some valid arguments. What I wrote wasn't meant to be taken as an abridgement of my total philosophy. There's been a problem around here lately of people taking single sentences from a message and blowing it out of proportion. I wish it would stop. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 10 09:39:08 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: <3.0.3.32.19971109043035.00c17da0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <34672A9C.CFBBFF5E@rain.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Holy-Moly -- something I've not heard about yet on the list -- Page 35 > there's an ad for "Introducing the Micro-Altair -- The complete Computer > System that requires just a keyboard and TV monitor for use." Kool. Great job, I have been looking for that article, the May 1976 Byte? The Micro-Altair is more commonly known as the Poly 88 and was the first machine I am aware of built by Polymorphic Systems here in Santa Barbara. The name was changed to Poly 88 after Ed Roberts of Mits objected to the name Altair being used. It was packaged in an orange chassis and I think it has also been referred to as a "toaster", probably because of its shape. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Nov 10 10:00:22 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <34672A9C.CFBBFF5E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marvin wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > Holy-Moly -- something I've not heard about yet on the list -- Page 35 > > there's an ad for "Introducing the Micro-Altair -- The complete Computer > > System that requires just a keyboard and TV monitor for use." Kool. > > Great job, I have been looking for that article, the May 1976 Byte? The > Micro-Altair is more commonly known as the Poly 88 and was the first machine > I am aware of built by Polymorphic Systems here in Santa Barbara. The name > was changed to Poly 88 after Ed Roberts of Mits objected to the name Altair > being used. It was packaged in an orange chassis and I think it has also > been referred to as a "toaster", probably because of its shape. And don't forget one of it's most unique (and amusing) features! (I just located a pair for my collection) If the four slots in the unit wre in the unit are not enough for you, just snap another one on! You see, there was provision for an additional S-100 connector on the edge of the backplane which would allow you to plug another unit in as an expantion box! Never did hear (officially) what the record was for number of units plugged together... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Nov 10 10:05:55 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <9710108792.AA879207047@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > Sounds bogus. The small laptops using 8080 (actually 8085) were the tandy > M-100s and there were also the Epson and NEC but none were before 1979. > I did a quick flip through my Kbaud and Byte for 76-80 and there were no > adverts for anything laptop other than a hand terminal that used a 4bit > part. I wonder. A few weeks ago I bought for L1 at a car boot sale a device called a Microscribe 320. (Made by a Welsh company, Microscribe Ltd., but sold with a British Telecom badge.) This is a sub-notebook (7 in square) terminal with built in text editor, 32K battery backed RAM and 40 x 8 character display. Before you all jump on me, yes, I know it was built circa 1983. It is a very nice machine, the only thing wrong with it being the small keyboard. Fortunately I don't touch type - FWIW I use the index and middle fingers of each hand and am as fast as most of the touch typers I know who aren't professional typists. The reason I am replying is that shortly after I posted about it here (and had a brief conversation with Tony Duell about how to power it up) I received an e-mail from one Adrian Godwin, who had seen my posting, and who also had a microscribe, and wanted to compare notes. In the end we concluded that his was an earlier model than mine (less RAM, smaller screen). So when did these start being made? Was there an even earlier model right back in the seventies? I would also like to thank Adrian (if he is reading this) who, when he obtained a Microscribe manual, and discovered it was for mine and not his, sent me a copy for free. The world needs more people like this! On the subject of early laptops in general, I have heard much in praise of the Tandy model 100, but I like the Epson HX20 which has everything you could possibly want in a laptop except a decent sized screen! Philip. From adam at merlin.net.au Mon Nov 10 10:39:08 1997 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: A simple question - was the Texas Instruments Compact Computer - the CC-40 - ever produced? I have some photos in a book here, and it looks neat, but I have never heard of them and have no idea if they are available second-hand. Adam. From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 10:49:33 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" In-Reply-To: <9710108792.AA879207047@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > On the subject of early laptops in general, I have heard much in praise > of the Tandy model 100, but I like the Epson HX20 which has everything > you could possibly want in a laptop except a decent sized screen! Hmmm... Having got both (and an Olivetti M10, Thorn Liberator, etc - no I don't collect portables), IMHO the keyboard on the HX20 has a much worse feel than that on the M100. I'd not want to type up anything long on the HX20, whereas I took my student lecture notes on the M100 (back when the M100 was almost current...) There is a video output option for the HX20. It plugs into the 'serial' connector (a 38400 baud RS232 link), which is also used for the TF20 disk drive. I beleive said video interface gave you CGA-like text and graphics. I've not seen one, however, but it would solve the small-screen problem, at least when using it at home/on your desk. Talking of the HX20, does anyone have a systems disk for the TF20 floppy drive? I've got the drive and the laptop, but no boot disk, which is a pity. > > Philip. > > -tony From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 10 11:04:37 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <199711101704.AA27472@world.std.com> <> Sounds bogus. The small laptops using 8080 (actually 8085) were the tand <> M-100s and there were also the Epson and NEC but none were before 1979. Most of the early laptops were either 8085 or z80 as both required less support chips than the 8080 (8080+8224+8228) as the 8080 chip set required three voltages and lots of board space. the 8085 or z80 were single 5v at lower power needs. the 6502 was also popular for the application. from "Bill Yakowenko" at Nov 10, 97 03:57:41 am Message-ID: <9711101705.AA00934@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971110/729a9246/attachment.ksh From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Nov 10 11:12:50 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Old stuff Message-ID: <9710108792.AA879211007@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > >> >....in my experience > >> >with IBM network cards, if they're a round (i.e. BNC) connector, > >> >they're probably the old "baseband" stuff that uses lots of coax > >>cable >and a hub/amplifier, and work only with IBM PC-LAN Program > >>and >NetBEUI....the number 2Mb/sec comes > >> >to mind.... > >> Are we talking about Arcnet here? When I think 2Mb/sec, BNC > >>connector, and 8-bit bus, I think Arcnet, but there may have been > >others.... If the cards are _branded_ IBM, chances are well over > >ten to one that they are > >Token Ring. IBM never touched Arcnet, and was hesitant about > >Ethernet. -- > >Ward Griffiths > > If any of those network cards ARE token-ring and have BNC connectors, I > would love to buy a couple. I got an old Token ring MAU several years ago > that has BNC ports and would like to try it out. Can't tell you how many > people have flat out denied that Token Ring was ever carried over coax! > But the existence of the MAU is proof enough that at one time it was done. Wow. I must admit, I thought that token ring required too many wires for co-ax. Or was the 4-wire connection replaced by coax in, coax out? Seriously, if it's IBM and co-ax I'd guess at SNA (Systems Network Architecture - the famous 3270 series terminals and related devices). This was not a PC network architecture at all - it was a loads-of- terminals-into-the-mainframe architecture - and the card would have come with terminal emulator software. BTW, did anyone discover what the IBM System/74 was? The description sounded more like a system/34 to me, and I certainly never heard of the 74 when I worked at IBM. Philip. From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Nov 10 10:17:12 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" In-Reply-To: <199711101704.AA27472@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971110111712.0096a540@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Allison J Parent said: >Most of the early laptops were either 8085 or z80 as both required less >support chips than the 8080 (8080+8224+8228) as the 8080 chip set required >three voltages and lots of board space. the 8085 or z80 were single 5v >at lower power needs. the 6502 was also popular for the application. Correctomundo! -- Motorola was actually rather late coming out with CMOS versions of their CPU's / support chips, so they weren't a drop in the bucket of the laptop/portable market compared to Commie/MOS / Intel / Zilog. >Tandy improved the 100 with the 102 which has a lager screen. FYI: Kyocera actually made the Tandy 100/102/200, the NEC 8201A and the Olivetti M10... I think there were others, but I cannot remember them right offhand. Also, the Tandy 200 actually came out before the Tandy 102 -- twice the screen size, less _maximum_ contiguous memory but more total banked memory (standard -- not counting 3rd-party solutions) and had MS MultiPlan on ROM standard as well -- and the keyboard was even better, the cursor keys were in a + style and were real, not chicklet keys. (Gee, can you tell I have one and I love it?) The Tandy 600 was OEM'd by Zenith, not Kyocera and was (as rumor has it) the first laptop with a built-in floppy drive (3.5", 80 track, SS/DD 360K). Zenith marketed a similar machine, (same screen - 80x16 / keyboard) but it did not have the floppy drive and the programs in ROM were different, IIRC. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Nov 10 11:25:51 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <9710108792.AA879211741@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > < Another "cute" blurb, "CP/M-86 is the 16 bit version of the de facto > > Call that a snapshot in time before the PC explosion. I like it! I used a Displaywriter occasionally at IBM, but I never knew it had an 8088/86 in it! I didn't even know you could get a general purpose operating system for it. It was a very nice machine, and ran a version of Displaywrite nicer than _any_ of the PC implementations. I'd love to get one for my collection... Well, there you are. A non-IBM-compatible with an 8088/86, and made by IBM too! I would add the FTS series-88 - a very strange British box with an 8088 in it, also running CP/M-86. An 8086 CPU card exists, but the machine was soon replaced by the FTS Series-86. This machine was sold as the "Non-compatible Compatible" - it ran a multi-tasking version of CP/M-86 called Concurrent DOS, sold by a company whose name escapes me, but begins with P (Pegasus?). It ran Lotus-123 from an IBM disk with no complaints, even drawing graphs on the (monochrome) screen. I must get mine working sometime... Now for what Allison was waiting for - a mention of Honeywell :-) When FTS went bust, they sold the design of the series-86 to Honeywell-Bull, who marketed it as the Microsystem Executive. Needless to say it died :-( Philip. From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 11:29:47 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" In-Reply-To: <199711101704.AA27472@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Tandy improved the 100 with the 102 which has a lager screen. Does it? The M100 has a 40*8 display. The next machine to come out was the M200 with a 40*16 display, Multiplan in ROM (as well as the M100 programs) and bank-switched RAM (up to 72K?). I thought the M102 had a 40*8 display, and was simply a slimline M100 with a revised logic board (used surface mount chips?), etc. If that's incorrect, what is the size of the M102 display? > > Allison > > -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 11:33:51 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Qume? In-Reply-To: <9711101705.AA00934@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: [track 0 sensor] > It's most likely the optical sensor, especially if it's been in > storage for a long while. Dust simply accumulates in the little > light paths. On all the track00 sensors that I've seen, the light is blocked when the head is at track 0. So dust in the sensor would make the drive think it was always at track 0, not that it hadn't got there. Wouldn't tyhe controller then either not do anything on a restore or move the heads towards the spindle in an attempt to get them off track 0? I guess it depends on whether subsequent logic is edge or level triggered. I see no reason to make it the former, but you never know. Still blowing dust out of the sensor can't do any harm, and it's something that I'd do first anyway, as it can't help the problem. > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) -tony From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Mon Nov 10 12:46:51 1997 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Adam Jenkins wrote: > A simple question - was the Texas Instruments Compact Computer - the CC-40 > - ever produced? I have some photos in a book here, and it looks neat, but > I have never heard of them and have no idea if they are available > second-hand. Yes - I have one of these. Unfortunately, it seems to be full of cold solder joints (there was even a loose transistor rattling inside the case when I first got it) and I haven't had a chance to go over the board with a soldering iron yet. It is much smaller than an M100 and has calculator-like keys with grooves cut between them to make the keyboard appear larger. The display is a single-line (40 character?) LCD. It has been a while since I looked inside it, but I seem to remember 6 Kbytes of static RAM. BASIC is in ROM, and there is a slot for an additional ROM cartridge. There was also a "WaferTape" storage device (somewhat like a Sinclair microdrive, IIRC) made for this machine. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu NUMS-MPBC Macromolecular Crystallography Resource 303 East Chicago Avenue, Ward 8-264, Chicago, IL 60611 From pb14 at leicester.ac.uk Mon Nov 10 10:35:48 1997 From: pb14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: apple rgb monitor problems Message-ID: <4F0317F2589@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 9 Nov 97 at 22:54, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > i need some help with an applecolor rgb monitor if anyone can. > does anyone know any way of testing this monitor? Apple have mastered the art of confusing names for monitors. The "original" colour monitor you need for a Mac II series is called the "AppleColor Hi-Resolution RGB Display"; for early Mac II series particular adaptor cards are required for particular monitors, so your adaptor card will not work with an A4 portrait display for example. From about 1990 it was replaced by the "Macintosh 12" RGB Display" which was smaller and lighter, There is a similarly named rgb monitor designed for the Apple IIgs; this is a 12" analog display very similar to the Macintosh display. It works with a horizontal refresh rate of 15.75kHz -- half that supplied by the IIcx video port. > i have one in the > silver-gray colour that matches my mac IIcx yet, i cannot seem to get any > video on it. i have tried using both a laser128 and a //c's rgb output into > the monitor, but the only thing i can get is a deep blue screen with stable > vertical lines with the //c, and a moving blue bar with the laser128 although > they both can do rgb output and i was using the same cable. Isn't the output from the //c and the laser *digital* rgb, not *analog* rgb? You can also be certain that Apple didn't use the same pinouts for the //c and the Mac II series so your cable will be wrong. > when i tested the > monitor with my mac cx which has a 1 bit mono card, i did get video, but was > difficult to read, and i got double images of the desktop. i've already tried > every control accessable on the monitor too. This sounds like the IIgs display to me. I'd hang on to it -- they are very highly regarded -- until a IIgs system turns up... Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 10 13:26:23 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Trash Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971110112419.4c1fbcaa@ricochet.net> At 02:38 PM 11/8/97 -0500, you wrote: >So, what do you people think I should do when I just can't keep a computer >much longer? I don't want to trash them, but things like XTs, 286s, etc? What >can I do but throw them away when I have no room? Where are you located? There are groups that will recondition them and place them in schools. Groups like the Detwiler Foundation (huge) or the Computer Recycling Project (tiny). I do the same for my girlfriend's school with Mac's. There are also programs that teach kids about fixing them. Lemme know if you need more info and I can dig it up. (I don't do much with most of the groups because I'm able to scrounge the computers and fix them myself.) P.S., if anyone has older mac stuff (Mac II or newer) we can always use it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 10 13:26:32 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971110112428.4d07f0c4@ricochet.net> At 04:36 PM 11/9/97 +0000, you wrote: >OK. By the way, speaking of "sub-laptops", does anyone know what kind of models >might be good for me? I just pretty much want to be able to take notes; etc. >Windows CE is cheap enough for me, but they're keyboards aren't for REAL people. >Possibly an Apple Newton? Or are there any classics that have a keyboard large >enough to type on(not two-finger typing.) ? Where can I get one of these Radio >Shack 100's? Good keyboards for taking notes: Radio Shack Model 100/102 NEC PC8201A (M100, but some differences (or vice-versa?)) Epson HX-20 (Not as good, but adequate) Cambridge Z88 (Never used one, but looks good.) Radio Shack WP-2 (Word processor, similar to m100) There are a couple of newer m100-type machines that can act as a keyboard for a Mac or PC as well. And, of course, Apple's E-mate (or whatever it's called.) Or pick up a used '286-ish PC laptop. Generally decent machines, run DOS (lots of available word processors), and cheap. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Mon Nov 10 14:08:44 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: apple rgb monitor problems Message-ID: <971110140844.22f4aa60@wartburg.edu> >i need some help with an applecolor rgb monitor if anyone can. >does anyone know any way of testing this monitor? i have one in the >silver-gray colour that matches my mac IIcx yet, i cannot seem to get any >video on it. This really sounds like the monitor for an Apple IIgs. I have three such monitors. (One isn't in very good shape and the other two are in use.) I think there are some Macs that can use this monitor, but I'm not positive. Make sure you are using analog RGB, not digital. What pinout is on the end of the cable? (I think it's supposed to be DB-25, if I have the number right, but I'm using the monitor to type this message and thus can't check right now. :)) -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 10 14:55:31 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711102055.AA12247@world.std.com> ---------- + From: Sam Ismail + To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" + Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad + Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:21:38 -0800 (PST) + +On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: + +> > > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: +> > +> > > 500 years from now, if what I am trying to accomplish with the Vintage +> > > Computer Festival succeeds, the machines which were truly significant from +> > > a social context, meaning the ones which ran the banking system, the +> > > airline system, government, etc. (in other words, the computers which were +> > > the foundation of modern society), will be the ones which we remember, and +> > > the Altair and others of its ilk will be merely novelties. +> > +> > I'd reign in your desire to pidgeonhole computers into "novelties" vs +> > "socially significant" if I were you. Not only is EVERY piece of hardware +> +> Next time you want to turn your flamethrower on, please aim at the right +> person. You quoted me for something I did not say. +> +> William Donzelli +> william@ans.net + +Mark, + +I take credit for the original posting. And you make some valid +arguments. What I wrote wasn't meant to be taken as an abridgement of my +total philosophy. + +There's been a problem around here lately of people taking single +sentences from a message and blowing it out of proportion. I wish it +would stop. + +Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com +--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- +Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass + + Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 + See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! + + Hi, Yes, I agree, and I must confess that I sounded a bit more irritated than I actually was! My point, as you note, was that we should consider all of computing's heratige special...but of course, we do, or we wouldn't be reading this list. Sorry if I sounded a bit arrogant.....and thanks for the reply Mark From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 10 16:26:55 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: CIE 680/20 Unix-like workstation Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971110142453.50678cc4@ricochet.net> Spotted this, thought it might be of interest to someone... >http://www.classifieds2000.com/cgi-cls/ad.exe?P1+C220+A0+R11595+Q8671010 > > Old Computer CIE Systems 6680/20, $50/OBO, Used >> >> Description CIE 680/20 Unix-like workstation. 15 years >> old. Regulus (Unix-like) OS. 2@ 8MB hard >> drives. 0.5 MB RAM. 4-8 MHz clock speed. >> Antique? Many manuals (several hundred >> pages). 3 serial ports. Very large desktop >> unit. Works OK. $50 >> >> Seller Info For sale by private party >> >> (626) 796-5184 [Day] >> (626) 796-5184 [Eve] >> Pasadena, California - L.A. Area 91106 >> >> >> Post Date 30-OCT-97 > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 10 16:27:07 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971110142505.51374e22@ricochet.net> At 08:43 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote: >Here's a silly question, but one I've never understood: Not that silly; but I'm afraid I don't recall the answer. 8^) >Since some of the software for my "old" (first generation PC) computers >is on 5 1/4" disks of dubious condition, I would like to make copies I think the best way to do this is to make disk images. I know the Mac can do this with Mac disks, and I'm sure the PC can too, but I've not found (i.e., not looked for) the software to do it. Can someone recommend a PC program to read 5.25" (and 3.5"?) diskettes and make images of them? This, I think, is where syquest drives (and similar) come in *very* handy. You can store the images on a removeable disk and not bother taking up fixed disk space for them. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 10 16:27:19 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971110142518.51377b1e@ricochet.net> At 03:09 AM 11/11/97 +1030, you wrote: >A simple question - was the Texas Instruments Compact Computer - the CC-40 >- ever produced? I have some photos in a book here, and it looks neat, but Yep. I've got one. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 10 16:27:27 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971110142527.51375238@ricochet.net> At 12:04 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Tandy improved the 100 with the 102 which has a lager screen. Actually, the 102 has the same size screen as the 100. Perhaps you're thinking of the 200? The 200 is a clamshell design (iirc) with 24x80 screen. The 102 was simply a lighter, cheaper-to-make version of the 100. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 10 11:45:52 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971110142505.51374e22@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199711102242.RAA21707@mail.cgocable.net> > At 08:43 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote: > >Here's a silly question, but one I've never understood: > > Not that silly; but I'm afraid I don't recall the answer. 8^) > > >Since some of the software for my "old" (first generation PC) computers > >is on 5 1/4" disks of dubious condition, I would like to make copies > > I think the best way to do this is to make disk images. I know the Mac can > do this with Mac disks, and I'm sure the PC can too, but I've not found > (i.e., not looked for) the software to do it. Can someone recommend a PC > program to read 5.25" (and 3.5"?) diskettes and make images of them? > > This, I think, is where syquest drives (and similar) come in *very* handy. > You can store the images on a removeable disk and not bother taking up fixed > disk space for them. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > There is... look into the simtel site and d/l several of them to try out. Some are DOS, win3.x and win95. I prefer to archive all of my disks to that dos based imager. Troll From adam at merlin.net.au Mon Nov 10 17:17:33 1997 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: > Hotze asked: >PS-Does anyone know where I can get old PC Mag issues? Or any other major >magazine? It's funny that you ask this. My wife's uncle just gave me issue #1 of PC World and issues 2 and 3 of PC Magazine. I'd really like to get my hands on PCMag issue #1! He also gave me a late-model original PC *with* theexpansion box (which I understand is a relatively rare item). Anyway, he was a sales rep for IBM for the PC product, and he kept all sorts of stuff in his attic. I guess that every summer, his wife makes him clean up a little more. I'd say go to garage sales, or put an add in the local newspaper. There's a juy who advertises every month in Nuts & Volts, that he collects pre-1980 equipment, mags, etc. Maybe try the same. Anyway, who knows what else he has up there. I've asked him to save a copy of the IBM songbook for me . Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin! Charter Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Networking From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Nov 10 17:26:11 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: I finally replaced the switches in the 34A, and Guess What! It's , dead! Message-ID: No reaction to the power whatsoever. Yes, it is plugged in! What did I do wrong? I got all the connections to the switches back in order, it doesn't pop either breaker, just no reaction. Anything in particular I could have missed? WHat's the result of getting that edge connector on upside-down? From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Nov 10 18:23:51 1997 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Old stuff In-Reply-To: <9710108792.AA879211007@compsci.powertech.co.uk> References: <9710108792.AA879211007@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3469a438.786299759@hoser> On Mon, 10 Nov 97 17:12:50 GMT, you wrote: >> >> >....in my experience >> >> >with IBM network cards, if they're a round (i.e. BNC) connector, >> >> >they're probably the old "baseband" stuff that uses lots of coax >> >>cable >and a hub/amplifier, and work only with IBM PC-LAN Program >> >>and >NetBEUI....the number 2Mb/sec comes >> >> >to mind.... >> >> Are we talking about Arcnet here? When I think 2Mb/sec, BNC >> >>connector, and 8-bit bus, I think Arcnet, but there may have been >> >others.... If the cards are _branded_ IBM, chances are well over >> >ten to one that they are >> >Token Ring. IBM never touched Arcnet, and was hesitant about >> >Ethernet. -- >> >Ward Griffiths >> >> If any of those network cards ARE token-ring and have BNC connectors, I >> would love to buy a couple. I got an old Token ring MAU several years ago >> that has BNC ports and would like to try it out. Can't tell you how many >> people have flat out denied that Token Ring was ever carried over coax! >> But the existence of the MAU is proof enough that at one time it was done. > >Wow. I must admit, I thought that token ring required too many wires >for co-ax. Or was the 4-wire connection replaced by coax in, coax out? > >Seriously, if it's IBM and co-ax I'd guess at SNA (Systems Network >Architecture - the famous 3270 series terminals and related devices). >This was not a PC network architecture at all - it was a loads-of- >terminals-into-the-mainframe architecture - and the card would have come >with terminal emulator software. > >BTW, did anyone discover what the IBM System/74 was? The description >sounded more like a system/34 to me, and I certainly never heard of the >74 when I worked at IBM. > >Philip. The ones I'm thinking of are _not_ 3270. I've worked with a lot of those, too. Actually, as I think about it, it was the 3270 that had BNC connectors; the baseband network cards had the regular screw-on coax connector as is used for cable TV. It used a device which looked much like the 8-way cable TV splitters, except what would be the "input" terminal went to a white box with a power cord; I believe it was an amplifier or a filter of some kind. You hooked up to 8 workstations to the "splitter", and terminated the unused splitter outputs. I've got the whole setup, including docs and disks, that we got rid of at my office when we went to token ring in a box in my basement somewhere if anyone really cares about the details. I was going to use it at home, but it was *far* too slow, and nobody made drivers for it any more so I ended up going with 10Mbps thin ethernet instead... -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Nov 10 18:21:39 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Fudge! I fudged it up! 34A PSU problems. Message-ID: Okay, I found a plug I forgot to attach. I plugged it in, switched it on, and the breakers went POP! Nothing burned, no hot smell... Time to start rechecking things! From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 10 18:28:33 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111002833.0069f568@pop3.concentric.net> Yes they made them (1984)and sold for $249.95. Powered by batteries and 6k of ram. I have one in storage picked it up for $10 about 4 years ago. At 03:09 AM 11/11/97 +1030, you wrote: >A simple question - was the Texas Instruments Compact Computer - the CC-40 >- ever produced? I have some photos in a book here, and it looks neat, but >I have never heard of them and have no idea if they are available >second-hand. > >Adam. > > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 10 18:31:02 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971111003102.006b8704@pop3.concentric.net> The 100 is used and in demand overseas, it is used by reporters in the jungles. They have a web site with address if anyone wants donate one. At 04:49 PM 11/10/97 +0000, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: >> On the subject of early laptops in general, I have heard much in praise >> of the Tandy model 100, but I like the Epson HX20 which has everything >> you could possibly want in a laptop except a decent sized screen! > >Hmmm... Having got both (and an Olivetti M10, Thorn Liberator, etc - no I >don't collect portables), IMHO the keyboard on the HX20 has a much worse >feel than that on the M100. I'd not want to type up anything long on the >HX20, whereas I took my student lecture notes on the M100 (back when the >M100 was almost current...) > >There is a video output option for the HX20. It plugs into the 'serial' >connector (a 38400 baud RS232 link), which is also used for the TF20 disk >drive. I beleive said video interface gave you CGA-like text and graphics. >I've not seen one, however, but it would solve the small-screen problem, >at least when using it at home/on your desk. > >Talking of the HX20, does anyone have a systems disk for the TF20 floppy >drive? I've got the drive and the laptop, but no boot disk, which is a >pity. > > >> >> Philip. >> >> > >-tony > > > > From pcoad at wco.com Mon Nov 10 18:33:56 1997 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Rescue page? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971110142453.50678cc4@ricochet.net> Message-ID: What happend to the Classic Computer Rescue page? Did it move? Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Nov 10 18:28:36 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A power problems Message-ID: Okay, I narrowed it down some: I unplugged everything except J3, the power switch. I plugged in that edge connector to the line module, OK. Power on: loud click, but the breakers held. Next, I plugged in J5. Power on: *CRACK!* Both breakers go. The breaker on the powerstrip is holding though. What is P5 for? From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Mon Nov 10 21:02:03 1997 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Computer collecting humor. References: Message-ID: <3467CAAB.3E0@worldnet.att.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Francois Auradon wrote: > > > Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > > That was 64bits of internal storage and that is different from a 64bit > > > parallel CPU. Also 613khz is slow. > > > > I'll have to do some research to back that number up. I picked it up on > > a web page and never actually double checked it. I've seen many > > allusions to the slow clock speed of the HP85 and I'm pretty sure it's > > below the 1 MHz. > > Are you sure you're talking about the HP85? The HP71 used the Saturn > processor which had 64bit registers (although with a 4 bit ALU and 4 bit > bus), and clocked it at 614kHz according to the tech manual I have. Sounds > very much like it. > > > Francois Auradon > > -tony As I said I'll need to do some research. Since I don't have the original manual for the HP85 my only source of info is the net. Gotta get alta vista to work. ------------------------------------------------------------ Francois Auradon Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From danjo at xnet.com Mon Nov 10 18:55:22 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Rescue page? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > What happend to the Classic Computer Rescue page? Did it move? Yes, Paul, it moved - oh - two months ago - I think. That was when I put the new link to it off of the Classic Computer Encyclopedia. Issac was having trouble with his provider. I tried to talk him into putting it on the list server (don't think Bill would mind) but he already had a new address 8-) Name: Classic Computer Rescue List URL: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1055/classic.html Name: The Classic Computer Encyclopedia Page URL: http://www.xnet.com/~danjo/classic/ Name: Classic Computer ListOp URL: http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp/ BC From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Nov 10 17:58:12 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" In-Reply-To: <199711102055.AA12364@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971110185812.00a8abb0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Allison J Parent said: ><40*8 display, and was simply a slimline M100 with a revised logic board ><(used surface mount chips?), etc. >< >It was may memory that the 102 had 80x8. No, the screensize of the M102 was the same as the M100, 40x8. One of the revisions on the logic board was a change from the proprietary 8K expansion modules on the M100 to just 8K SRAM chip sockets on the M102, and I think it was about 1 pound lighter. The expansion bus is also similar to the T200 (40-pin dual-inline 0.1" header) instead of the M100 (40-pin DIP socket)... AFAIK they have the exact same ROMS and run all of the same programs... but my experience is with the T200 and T600........ HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Nov 10 18:07:37 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971110142527.51375238@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971110190737.00a7a4a0@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Uncle Roger said: >At 12:04 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Tandy improved the 100 with the 102 which has a lager screen. > >Actually, the 102 has the same size screen as the 100. Perhaps you're >thinking of the 200? The 200 is a clamshell design (iirc) with 24x80 >screen. The 102 was simply a lighter, cheaper-to-make version of the 100. Wha? Whoa! Mmmmmm, noper. The 200's screen had only twice the real estate of the M100 -- it has a 40x16 screen. Yes it was a flip-top which was nice (Get this -- the two halves are kept together during transit by *magnets*) and is very easy to read for a non-backlit screen, but 80x24's were still a few years away... Tandy got close on the Tandy 600 with 80x16, but the display was wide, short, and much harder to read. (It wasn't backlit either.) Here's a question: Anybody know how many Tandy 600's were made? I'd like to know how rare mine is! See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From bmpete at swbell.net Mon Nov 10 19:27:06 1997 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives In-Reply-To: <3465CC03.D76@escape.ca> References: <3465CC03.D76@escape.ca> Message-ID: <3467b311.14939215@mail.swbell.net> On Sun, 09 Nov 1997 08:43:15 -0600, you said: >Here's a silly question, but one I've never understood: > >Why can't a high density 5 1/4" disk be formatted in a double density >drive? When I try, DOS returns a "Track 0 Bad" error message. If you try it in a non-compatible non-PC, you get MANY bad sectors... The media is physically different. (IIRC, the HD media has higher reluctance, the magnetic equivalent to resistance, to prevent crosstalk between tracks) _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Nov 10 19:45:07 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Novas etc In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Nov 10, 97 05:12:27 am Message-ID: <199711110145.RAA26907@fraser> Hi Doug: > How well would a Nova survive winter weather during transit? Do you think > CN or CP would be too rough with these things? :) I'm in Vancouver, very close to Tim. Lately I've been to Ottawa quite frequently with my work, if you're close to there (where's Concordia, I know it's back east Ont/Que somewhere) I may be able to take a bit of extra "luggage" my next trip, which may be in January. Tim's living room is quite full of DG boxes, and I'm sure if you can work out a deal with him he'd be happy to get another corner of the room back! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 10 19:47:36 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <199711110147.AA00132@world.std.com> Found the following on comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt Anybody near him wanna rescue these machines. I acquired one about a month ago here in Indiana, along with a fairly complete set of books and disks. Mine has two ESDI drives (300mb & 110mb) and loaded with AIX 2.2. It's a tower case about 24" x 24" x 9". If I remember the front panel says System 135. Mike Thompson ================================================== Subject: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s From: Bill Bradford Date: Sun, Nov 9, 1997 20:52 EST Message-id: <645pd8$cbc$1@news3.texas.net> I recently acquired this whole bunch, with the intention of getting at least a couple of them reloaded and working; however, I've now got plans to move soon, and cant afford to move these machines. I'd like to see them go to a good home; so they're free to the first person to come pick them up. System Configurations: (6 systems) EAP processors (16mb RAM each) dual ESDI hard drives (unknown size) SIIG ISA-bus I/O cards Graphic cards with 6153 mono monitors Ethernet (AUI / 10base2) cards ESDI controller cards The other system only has the HDs and ESDI controller card (no CPU card or other cards). Also, one of the above systems is lacking the 1.2mb floppy drive; it may be the same system that is lacking a CPU card. I beleive 3 or 4 of the machines also have tape drive controller cards; and I have three external IBM QIC tape drives to go with them. I've also got a 15" monochrome IBM monitor that has a DB9 data cable connector. I've got some manuals (User's manual, problem determination guide, and 2-3 others) in the IBM binders. Systems are located in Austin, Texas. You'll need a good-sized pickup truck or van to haul all of them away. If you're interested, let me know. It sucks to let these go, but I cant afford to move them along with my other computer equipment. I can be reached at mrbill@texas.net. -- Bill Bradford Sr. Systems Engineer ICQ: 1864511 mrbill@texas.net Texas Networking, Inc. http://www.texas.net From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 10 20:15:58 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: apple rgb monitor problems In-Reply-To: <971110140844.22f4aa60@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: >>i need some help with an applecolor rgb monitor if anyone can. >>does anyone know any way of testing this monitor? i have one in the >>silver-gray colour that matches my mac IIcx yet, i cannot seem to get any >>video on it. > >This really sounds like the monitor for an Apple IIgs. I have three >such monitors. (One isn't in very good shape and the other two are >in use.) I think there are some Macs that can use this monitor, but I'm >not positive. Make sure you are using analog RGB, not digital. I know for a fact that the monitor for the IIgs doesn't work with a Mac LC, nothing bad happened, just didn't work. Don't remember specifics on it though. In my opinion the LC would have been the most likely to be able to use the monitor. I'd heard rumors that it would, but when you think about the fact that they'll all work with a Multisync monitor, doesn't really make sense. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Nov 11 00:25:13 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Roger Sinasohn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Commie & Apple stuff.. Message-ID: <3467FA49.1D03@ricochet.net> Just an FYI... www.classifieds2000.com/cgi-cls/ad.exe?P1+C220+A0+R12409+Q101422074 Old Computer Various Dell,IBM, $15/OBO, Used Description Lots of Samsung Amber monitors.Compaq 286 Deskpro, Dell and IBM 286 Plus all the Commodore and Apple stuff you could want Make Me An Offer!! Seller Info For sale by private party (713) 631-1545 [Day] billbutl@swbell.net Houston, Texas - Houston 77078 Post Date 09-NOV-97 Copyright ? 1996-97, Classifieds2000 Inc. All rights reserved. Send any comments, questions, or suggestions to comments@classifieds2000.com Employment Opportunities Disclaimer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 11 03:47:20 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A power problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Okay, I narrowed it down some: > I unplugged everything except J3, the power switch. > I plugged in that edge connector to the line module, OK. > Power on: loud click, but the breakers held. > Next, I plugged in J5. > Power on: *CRACK!* Both breakers go. > The breaker on the powerstrip is holding though. > What is P5 for? You do have the right sized breaker, I take it. The 11/34 takes quite a high switch-on surge - I believe the original breaker was a time-delay one. I can't remember all the plugs by number, but I can tell you what they are by description.. Start with _just_ the 3-pin one going to the frontpanel in place. Turning on the power swtich should cause a sharp click from the contactor in the mains block (it sounds like you've done this). Now connect the 4 way one alongside this (transformer primary windings). Make sure the 8-pin one with all the black wires, the edge connector, etc are all out at this point. Power up again. If the breaker trips it sounds like you have a short in the transformer or its wiring. Now fit the edge connector. If it trips, try it the other way up (I _think_ the wires exit on the solder side of the PCB, but I'm not sure). If you can't get it to work, you need to troubleshoot the 15V PCB, which is quite simple. Now fit the 8-pin connector with all the black wires (transformer secondaries to regulator modules). If it trips now, unplug all the 8-pin connectors from the regulators. Add them back one at a time until you find the regulator that's causing it to trip, and then debug that module. -tony From gkatz001 at umabnet.ab.umd.edu Tue Nov 11 06:18:12 1997 From: gkatz001 at umabnet.ab.umd.edu (Gary S Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" In-Reply-To: <199711102055.AA12364@world.std.com> Message-ID: The 102 has a 40x8 display. I'm looking at one right now. -gk On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > <40*8 display, and was simply a slimline M100 with a revised logic board > <(used surface mount chips?), etc. > < > > It was may memory that the 102 had 80x8. > > Allison > > From rcini at email.msn.com Tue Nov 11 07:53:58 1997 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Anyone have a used copy of this book? Message-ID: <025c31154130bb7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> I'm looking for the following book. Does anyone have it? Amazon wants $80+ for it (I think that it's more of a text book than anything else). Thanks! Title: "An Introduction to the Intel Family of Microprocessors: A Hands-on Approach to Utilizing the 8088 Microprocessor" by James L. Antonakos. There are two publishing dates: 1992 and 1996. Rich Cini/WUGNET Charter ClubWin! Member MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 11 11:08:32 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... Message-ID: Alright. It wasn't powering on because I left J3 unplugged. When I plug in J5 (4-wire plug on the line power module) everything goes. I can plug in everything else, and all I get is a relay click. I found the easy way to play with these plugs is to set the BA11 upside-down on the table, and unmount the PSU so I can get access. What is J5 for and what voltages are supposed to be there? I have an oscope here, and I may be able to dig out a VOM... It's obvious I switched wires or something in the line power module. Visual inspection shows nothing obviously wrong... From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 11 11:31:21 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Alright. It wasn't powering on because I left J3 unplugged. > When I plug in J5 (4-wire plug on the line power module) everything goes. > I can plug in everything else, and all I get is a relay click. > I found the easy way to play with these plugs is to set the BA11 > upside-down on the table, and unmount the PSU so I can get access. > What is J5 for and what voltages are supposed to be there? J5 carries the wires to the 2 primary winding on the mains transformer in the PSU. On 230V units the 2 windings are linked in series, on 120V units (like yours, I guess), in parallel. With J5 unplugged, the PSU isn't going to do anything. The only bit of circuitry that is then powered up is the little PSU that operates the main relay in the control chassis. The fact that the breaker trips when the transformer is plugged in doesn't tell us much (other than there's something wrong in there). Obvious problems would be : 1) A short somewhere on the secondary side (in one of the regulators, say). This will obviously cause too high a current to flow in the primary circuit 2) A defective mains transformer (unlikely, and pray that it's not) 3) You've reversed one of the primary windings (swapped over leads on J5). I assume you've not fiddled with this 4) Did you fit a new breaker? The mains transformer takes a high surge current at switch-on. The original breaker was a time-delay one - is the new one of a similar type. What happens if you remove all the loads from the secondary of the transformer (pull out the 8-pin plug from the distibution pcb that carries 8 black wires, and unplug the edge connector from the 15V PCB in the PSU)? Will the breaker hold then with J5 in place? Did you get my earlier message about section-isolating this fault? I have the BA11-K prints at home, and can talk you through the entire PSU if necessary, but at least let's try to find out which bit is faulty. > I have an oscope here, and I may be able to dig out a VOM... > It's obvious I switched wires or something in the line power module. What did you disconnect? If you think you may have swapped wires, let us know what you fiddled with _now_ rather than later... > Visual inspection shows nothing obviously wrong... > > -tony From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 11 11:42:25 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > > > J5 carries the wires to the 2 primary winding on the mains transformer in > the PSU. On 230V units the 2 windings are linked in series, on 120V units > (like yours, I guess), in parallel. Okay, that big transformer in the top of the PSU? > With J5 unplugged, the PSU isn't going to do anything. The only bit of > circuitry that is then powered up is the little PSU that operates the main > relay in the control chassis. Okay. > The fact that the breaker trips when the transformer is plugged in doesn't > tell us much (other than there's something wrong in there). Obvious > problems would be : > 1) A short somewhere on the secondary side (in one of the regulators, > say). This will obviously cause too high a current to flow in the primary > circuit How do I check that? I've never played with voltages over 24V before. > 2) A defective mains transformer (unlikely, and pray that it's not) It probably isn't, this worked fine until I broke it. > 3) You've reversed one of the primary windings (swapped over leads on J5). > I assume you've not fiddled with this I may have. I had to unplug the breakers to replace them. > 4) Did you fit a new breaker? The mains transformer takes a high surge > current at switch-on. The original breaker was a time-delay one - is the > new one of a similar type. The breakers came from a VAX PS, DEC model # 70-18763-00 > What happens if you remove all the loads from the secondary of the > transformer (pull out the 8-pin plug from the distibution pcb that carries > 8 black wires, and unplug the edge connector from the 15V PCB in the PSU)? > Will the breaker hold then with J5 in place? I'll check that. > Did you get my earlier message about section-isolating this fault? I have > the BA11-K prints at home, and can talk you through the entire PSU if > necessary, but at least let's try to find out which bit is faulty. Hmm. My boss used to work on big PSUs in CB radio linears, if you could scan the schematic or something he could troubleshoot this... > What did you disconnect? If you think you may have swapped wires, let us > know what you fiddled with _now_ rather than later... I detached the 4 wires attached to the breakers. I detached the 2 line wires last so as to not swap them, but I may have anyway. From pb14 at leicester.ac.uk Tue Nov 11 08:23:59 1997 From: pb14 at leicester.ac.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: apple rgb monitor problems Message-ID: <505FF6120EB@orchid.le.ac.uk> On 10 Nov 97 at 18:15, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >This really sounds like the monitor for an Apple IIgs. I have three > >such monitors. (One isn't in very good shape and the other two are > >in use.) I think there are some Macs that can use this monitor, but I'm > >not positive. Make sure you are using analog RGB, not digital. No standard Macintosh can use the Apple IIgs RGB monitor. The video port on the Mac provides a signal with a horizontal scan rate of about 35kHz -- this figure is for the Mac II; newer Macs may be higher. The Apple IIgs monitor and system video port use a scan rate of about 15.75kHz. Both IIgs and Mac systems provide analog signals. > In my opinion the LC would have been the most likely to be able to use the > monitor. The LC and IIsi were the first (non compact) Macs to have video on the main board and folks were pleased to note that, using the right cable, it was possible to hook up to a standard grotty PC VGA display. The pinouts are available in Apple's Tech Info library. > I'd heard rumors that it would, but when you think about the fact > that they'll all work with a Multisync monitor, doesn't really make sense. Lots of older computers will work with the early Multisync monitors. I've used the same Multisync on my IIgs and on a PC. I've run out of D-connectors temporarily; when I've been shopping I'll sort out the cables to attach the monitor to my (digital output) Apple III and to an LC-series Mac. Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14@le.ac.uk From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 11 11:57:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 11, 97 11:42:25 am Message-ID: <9711111757.AA28296@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1043 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971111/177c7bf0/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 11 11:51:08 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What happens if you remove all the loads from the secondary of the > > transformer (pull out the 8-pin plug from the distibution pcb that carries > > 8 black wires, and unplug the edge connector from the 15V PCB in the PSU)? > > Will the breaker hold then with J5 in place? Yes. It comes up, and the fans spin up. With just the edge connector off, it pops. With just the edge connector on, it goes. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 11 11:57:39 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... In-Reply-To: <9711111757.AA28296@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > What sort of VAX PS is that? Is it a similar BA-11 type box, or > is it from something completely different (i.e. BA23/BA123?) As > Tony points out, if you got it from a very different sort of box, > it's probably not a time-delay one. > It's nowhere similar. It was 3 breakers wide, I removed the middle one. It looks like the power controller at the bottom of the rack. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 11 12:09:11 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 11, 97 11:57:39 am Message-ID: <9711111809.AA20610@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 811 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971111/ad43b4f6/attachment.ksh From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 11 12:09:09 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > J5 carries the wires to the 2 primary winding on the mains transformer in > > the PSU. On 230V units the 2 windings are linked in series, on 120V units > > (like yours, I guess), in parallel. > > Okay, that big transformer in the top of the PSU? That's the one, yes. It's rated at somewhere near 1000VA, and has 5 separate 20-30V secondary windings - one for each of the 4 regulators, one for the 15V board (+15V, line clock, ACLO, DCLO signals). > > 1) A short somewhere on the secondary side (in one of the regulators, > > say). This will obviously cause too high a current to flow in the primary > > circuit > > How do I check that? I've never played with voltages over 24V before. > Well, start off by unplugging all the loads from the secondary side, as I described below. Then add them back one at a time (see the message I sent out this morning, if it's got to you, if not I'll send you a private copy), and see which regulator trips the breaker. Then we need to get into that. Mind you, the regulators contain their own fuses, so most faults in them only blow the internal fuse and don't trip the main breaker. > > 3) You've reversed one of the primary windings (swapped over leads on J5). > > I assume you've not fiddled with this > > I may have. I had to unplug the breakers to replace them. Unless you removed individual wires from J5, I fail to see how you'd have got them back in the wrong order. > > > 4) Did you fit a new breaker? The mains transformer takes a high surge > > current at switch-on. The original breaker was a time-delay one - is the > > new one of a similar type. > > The breakers came from a VAX PS, DEC model # 70-18763-00 Wait a second... Breaker_s_??? The original 11/34 breaker is a double-pole unit designed so that if either side trips both get turned off. Have you fitted 2 single-pole breakers in place of it? That would violate the regulations at least (the breaker in the grounded side of the mains could trip, leaving the entire input side to the PSU live, for example). These breakers are made in many different ratings, and with several time-delay characteristics. DEC used many of them - not all PSUs take the same current from the mains, and IIRC the BA11-K PSU takes a heck of a switch-on surge - later SMPS's have inrush current limiter circuits, and probably use different breakers It sounds to me as though you've fitted the wrong breaker - that is all. Do you want me to try and find the spec of the original one? I could certainly find out what the 240V one was. I'm guessing now, but I think the original one was a 10A, double pole, time delay unit. What does it say on your replacement(s)? > Hmm. My boss used to work on big PSUs in CB radio linears, if you could > scan the schematic or something he could troubleshoot this... The schematic for this PSU is probably about 10-20 A3 (11"*17") sheets. It's not that complicated, but there's a lot of it. Let's find out what bits you need first. The input circuitry is very straightforward, though. Mains comes in. It goes to the breaker, then to a mains filter. The output of that goes to the big contactor relay. That applies mains to the input of the transformer. The output of the transformer goes to the regulator blocks. > > > What did you disconnect? If you think you may have swapped wires, let us > > know what you fiddled with _now_ rather than later... > > I detached the 4 wires attached to the breakers. > I detached the 2 line wires last so as to not swap them, but I may have > anyway. There's no way that getting any of that wrong would cause the PSU to trip only when the transformer was connected. Just about the only thing you could have got wrong would have been to connect the 2 input wires to the 2 terminals on one pole of the breaker, in which case the breaker would have shorted out the mains and would have tripped instantly when you plugged it in. I suspect the only problem is that you are using the wrong breaker. > > > -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 11 12:12:47 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > What happens if you remove all the loads from the secondary of the > > > transformer (pull out the 8-pin plug from the distibution pcb that carries > > > 8 black wires, and unplug the edge connector from the 15V PCB in the PSU)? > > > Will the breaker hold then with J5 in place? > > Yes. It comes up, and the fans spin up. With just the edge connector > off, it pops. With just the edge connector on, it goes. OK, so the transformer is probably OK. What happens with : 8pin plug out, edge connector off? (breaker holds?) 8pin plug in, edge connector off? 8pin plug out, edge connector on? If the breaker will hold with the edge connector off and everything else in place, first check that the edge connector is the right way round, then start debugging the (trivial) power controller card. > > > -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 11 12:19:35 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... In-Reply-To: <9711111757.AA28296@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > 1) A short somewhere on the secondary side (in one of the regulators, > > > say). This will obviously cause too high a current to flow in the primary > > > circuit > > > > How do I check that? I've never played with voltages over 24V before. > > A clamp-on AC ammeter is one choice - and its something that everyone > with minicomputers should own or be able to borrow :-). You can buy them at > Radio Shack, among other places. That reminds me... I really must start seriously looking for a Tektronix current probe for my 'scope. A series light bulb is another trick. With all the loads removed from the outputs of the regulators, the PSU shoulds run with (say) a 200W light bulb (or enough smaller ones in parallel to equal this). The bulb should be dim/out. If it's glowing brightly you can be sure that there's a short somewhere. This trick is more use on SMPS's where faults don't just trip the breaker/fuse, they also blow expensive chopper transistors. I never power up a repaired SMPS without some kind of limiting... [...] > It also won't hurt to do a continuity check on the breaker. If the > connections aren't what you think they are, you've got a problem! Unless it's one of those breakers with a separate connection for the trip element (used in the RX01/RX02 I believe), I can't see how misconnecting the breaker will cause it to trip only when the load is plugged in. > > Tim. > -tony From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 11 12:13:40 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 34A Power Trouble. I calmed down, here's the facts... In-Reply-To: <9711111809.AA20610@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > What's the Amp rating? (Should be prominently displayed > on the breaker itself). Ahhh.... 15 for one and 1.5 for the other... that's it. I must have misplaced that decimal.. that was stupid. > What was the problem with using the original 11/34A's breaker? Sure, > the handles are broken off, but this isn't a major problem. You > can still just push both poles into the "on" position, and if there > is an overload they're still ganged to go off together. One looks usable, the other has parts of the switch bouncing around inside. If I took it apart, I might be able to fix it up... From chemif at mbox.queen.it Tue Nov 11 19:35:17 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971110142505.51374e22@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.16.19971111193517.374704c0@mbox.queen.it> >>Since some of the software for my "old" (first generation PC) computers >>is on 5 1/4" disks of dubious condition, I would like to make copies > >I think the best way to do this is to make disk images. I know the Mac can >do this with Mac disks, and I'm sure the PC can too, but I've not found >(i.e., not looked for) the software to do it. Can someone recommend a PC >program to read 5.25" (and 3.5"?) diskettes and make images of them? CopyQm is capable to take FDD images and store them in files:it works with 5.25" too. Ciao. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- Riccardo Romagnoli Classic Computers and Phonecards collector Forli' - Italy chemif@mbox.queen.it ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 11 12:29:59 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.16.19971111193517.374704c0@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Riccardo Romagnoli wrote: > >I think the best way to do this is to make disk images. I know the Mac can > >do this with Mac disks, and I'm sure the PC can too, but I've not found > >(i.e., not looked for) the software to do it. Can someone recommend a PC > >program to read 5.25" (and 3.5"?) diskettes and make images of them? > CopyQm is capable to take FDD images and store them in files:it works with > 5.25" too. > Unixes do this real easy: dd if=/dev/ of= From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 11 13:29:56 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: 11/34A PSU: Here we go again... Message-ID: Replaced the 1.5A breaker with a 20 (One of the origionals) Now I have a 15, and a 20. The other origional one is toast, the insides were banged up. I reglued the handle to the 20. About to try this drill again... Got it! It works! Halts with BUS ERR 'cause I removed the RX controller! Now to take it in the next room and attach devices... From djenner at halcyon.com Tue Nov 11 13:51:48 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives References: <3.0.2.16.19971111193517.374704c0@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: <3468B754.8672B0CB@halcyon.com> Teledisk, by the same vendor of CopyQM, does this very well. See http://www.sydex.com It looks like Sydex has discontinued its shareware version of Teledisk. You may be able to find it in an archive somewhere. Dave Riccardo Romagnoli wrote: > > >>Since some of the software for my "old" (first generation PC) computers > >>is on 5 1/4" disks of dubious condition, I would like to make copies > > > >I think the best way to do this is to make disk images. I know the Mac can > >do this with Mac disks, and I'm sure the PC can too, but I've not found > >(i.e., not looked for) the software to do it. Can someone recommend a PC > >program to read 5.25" (and 3.5"?) diskettes and make images of them? > CopyQm is capable to take FDD images and store them in files:it works with > 5.25" too. > > Ciao. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > Riccardo Romagnoli > Classic Computers and Phonecards collector > Forli' - Italy > chemif@mbox.queen.it > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 330 bytes Desc: Card for David C. Jenner Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971111/dfd5970c/vcard.vcf From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 11 14:55:05 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: [11/34A] ARRRRGH!! Message-ID: The BUS ERROR wasn't from the card not being installed. I reinstalled everything, and it refuses to boot. Apparently, I've snipped the wrong wires on the UDA50 slots. Or forgotten to plug things in... No, that's not it. EVerything's plugged in, the lights on the UDA strobe, I've cut the wrong pins and boogered this up worse. I really should stop destroying these machines and just pass them on to more capable people... But I like them too much. Where are the pins I am SUPPOSED to have clipped? I'll rejumper the old ones, it doesn't look hard... From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 11 15:10:43 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: [11/34A] ARRRRGH!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > The BUS ERROR wasn't from the card not being installed. I reinstalled Can you halt the CPU (RUN light off) from the panel? If not, then you've probably got grant problems. Try pulling the terminator (M9302 card, I think - anyway it's in the far left slot). If you can now halt the CPU from the panel, you've certainly got grant problems. > everything, and it refuses to boot. > Apparently, I've snipped the wrong wires on the UDA50 slots. > Or forgotten to plug things in... > No, that's not it. EVerything's plugged in, the lights on the UDA strobe, > I've cut the wrong pins and boogered this up worse. These things happen. Remember 'The designer who never blew a chip is a bad designer. He never designed anything'. That was said to me years ago, and I've lived by it ever since. You don't want to see a list of the stupid mistakes I've made... > I really should stop destroying these machines and just pass them on to > more capable people... Nonsense. The only way to learn is by doing... > But I like them too much. Where are the pins I am SUPPOSED to have > clipped? I'll rejumper the old ones, it doesn't look hard... OK. They're on the 3rd connector from the back (2 connectors behind them, 3 in front). They're the rearmost 2 pins on the righthand side (looking from the _TOP_ of the backplane). You'll find they're linked by a little loop of wire close to the backplane. That's what you should have cut. What, in fact, did you cut? > > > -tony From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Tue Nov 11 16:11:24 1997 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Varian 620/i information and software wanted Message-ID: <3468D80C.4135@digiweb.com> I spent a most enjoyable day today writing an emulator for the varian 620/i processor. I have a few questions about the handling of the overflow flag if anyone can help. Also does anyone have any software for the beastie? What happend to the Varian computer division? Regards, -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Nov 11 18:01:50 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: Varian 620/i information and software wanted In-Reply-To: <3468D80C.4135@digiweb.com> from "Hans B Pufal" at Nov 11, 97 10:11:24 pm Message-ID: <199711120001.QAA24462@fraser> Hi Hans: > I spent a most enjoyable day today writing an emulator for the varian > 620/i processor. I have a few questions about the handling of the > overflow flag if anyone can help. I used a Varian 620 about 20 years ago. I have manuals on the hardware, microprogramming, assembler, and on VORTEX, the Varian OS. > Also does anyone have any software for the beastie? I have a disk pack that may still be readable (same packaging as an RL01/RL02 pack), tape backups, and some source and binaries. The programs are mostly system utilities that I wrote while in school. I don't have VORTEX, however. I DO have some VORTEX source code listings, but that won't help at present... You're welcome to whatever you need. I'll look up the overflow flag tonight. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Nov 11 18:44:14 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:32 2005 Subject: FWD: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971112004414.00698e48@pop3.concentric.net> If no one close want them I could drive from Minnesota to your home a meeting place close to the IL border one of these weekends before snow hits. John At 09:16 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Found the following on comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt >Anybody near him wanna rescue these machines. > >I acquired one about a month ago here in Indiana, along >with a fairly complete set of books and disks. Mine has >two ESDI drives (300mb & 110mb) and loaded with >AIX 2.2. It's a tower case about 24" x 24" x 9". >If I remember the front panel says System 135. > >Mike Thompson > >================================================== >Subject: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s >From: Bill Bradford >Date: Sun, Nov 9, 1997 20:52 EST >Message-id: <645pd8$cbc$1@news3.texas.net> > >I recently acquired this whole bunch, with the intention of getting >at least a couple of them reloaded and working; however, I've now >got plans to move soon, and cant afford to move these machines. I'd >like to see them go to a good home; so they're free to the first >person to come pick them up. > >System Configurations: (6 systems) > EAP processors (16mb RAM each) > dual ESDI hard drives (unknown size) > SIIG ISA-bus I/O cards > Graphic cards with 6153 mono monitors > Ethernet (AUI / 10base2) cards > ESDI controller cards > >The other system only has the HDs and ESDI controller card (no CPU card > or other cards). Also, one of the above systems is lacking the 1.2mb >floppy drive; it may be the same system that is lacking a CPU card. > >I beleive 3 or 4 of the machines also have tape drive controller >cards; and I have three external IBM QIC tape drives to go with them. >I've also got a 15" monochrome IBM monitor that has a DB9 data cable >connector. > >I've got some manuals (User's manual, problem determination guide, and >2-3 others) in the IBM binders. > >Systems are located in Austin, Texas. You'll need a good-sized pickup >truck or van to haul all of them away. If you're interested, let me know. >It sucks to let these go, but I cant afford to move them along with my >other computer equipment. > >I can be reached at mrbill@texas.net. > >-- >Bill Bradford Sr. Systems Engineer ICQ: 1864511 >mrbill@texas.net Texas Networking, Inc. http://www.texas.net > > > > > > > > > > From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Tue Nov 11 20:10:39 1997 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: OLD hard drives and enclosure need RESCUE! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971111181039.00e95b50@mail.wizards.net> FW to: ClassicCmp@u.washington.edu CC: cyber@prismnet.com Can anyone give the hard drives and enclosures this fellow has a good home? The price is certainly right ($10 + shipping). What they are is two enclosures, each with a pair of Miniscribe 4022's (16 MB each, formatted) in them, and I've also been led to understand that the enclosures contain a SCSI-to-MFM bridge board. Please reply directly to the offerer. Thanks! Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- >X-Sender: cyber@prismnet.com >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) >Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:28:02 -0600 >To: Bruce Lane >From: Tom Ray >Subject: Re: weird SCSI drives > >I'll take you up on that offer. I hate to throw things out. Anybody wants >them, they can have both of them for the cost of shipping via USmail plus >$10. if that's too much, let me know. Only thing is, I don't even know if >the drives work. > >tom > > > >[snip] >> In short, even if their box does contain a SCSI-to-MFM bridge board, >>they're pretty useless for much of anything current. HOWEVER -- do NOT just >>throw them out! Sell them (at no more than $20 for the whole thing) to >>someone who can give them a good home, or donate them to whatever computer >>charity is in your area. >> >> One other alternative is that I'm a member of a mailing list of folks that >>collect "classic" (read: more than 10 years old) hardware/software. Those >>drives might be just what some collector needs to get that old Osborne or >>Altair of theirs going with a good hard drive. I can, if you'd like, >>forward a 'for sale/trade' note to the list for you. If anyone's >>interested, they'd contact you directly. >> >> Best of luck, no matter what happens. >> >> >>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Tue Nov 11 23:09:01 1997 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" References: Message-ID: <346939BD.24AA@worldnet.att.net> Gary S Katz wrote: > > The 102 has a 40x8 display. I'm looking at one right now. > > -gk So does the 100, so am I. ------------------------------------------------------------ Francois Auradon Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Nov 11 21:57:53 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Need Info: Sick PDP-8/f (Diode) Message-ID: <199711120357.TAA28896@fraser> Hi All: I am working on a sick M8310 board from a PDP-8/f. I've found and removed a broken diode. It has a glass housing and resembles a germanium variety that I used to see often in my early days. The board has over a dozen diodes, all are the same. The diodes are not numbered but have three coloured bands: Orange, Black, Brown. Not having a suitable reference, any '8 owners out there that can tell me what kind of diode I should replace the broken one with? Thanks, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Tue Nov 11 22:14:01 1997 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: FWD: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s Message-ID: I'd like to snag one of those as well. Any chance of doing some sort of coordinated roadtrip with folks meeting in a central place for distribution? -- Tony Eros Digital Equipment Corporation ---------- From: John R. Keys Jr.[SMTP:jrkeys@concentric.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:44 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: FWD: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s If no one close want them I could drive from Minnesota to your home a meeting place close to the IL border one of these weekends before snow hits. John At 09:16 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Found the following on comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt >Anybody near him wanna rescue these machines. > >I acquired one about a month ago here in Indiana, along >with a fairly complete set of books and disks. Mine has >two ESDI drives (300mb & 110mb) and loaded with >AIX 2.2. It's a tower case about 24" x 24" x 9". >If I remember the front panel says System 135. > >Mike Thompson > >================================================== >Subject: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s >From: Bill Bradford >Date: Sun, Nov 9, 1997 20:52 EST >Message-id: <645pd8$cbc$1@news3.texas.net> > >I recently acquired this whole bunch, with the intention of getting >at least a couple of them reloaded and working; however, I've now >got plans to move soon, and cant afford to move these machines. I'd >like to see them go to a good home; so they're free to the first >person to come pick them up. > >System Configurations: (6 systems) > EAP processors (16mb RAM each) > dual ESDI hard drives (unknown size) > SIIG ISA-bus I/O cards > Graphic cards with 6153 mono monitors > Ethernet (AUI / 10base2) cards > ESDI controller cards > >The other system only has the HDs and ESDI controller card (no CPU card > or other cards). Also, one of the above systems is lacking the 1.2mb >floppy drive; it may be the same system that is lacking a CPU card. > >I beleive 3 or 4 of the machines also have tape drive controller >cards; and I have three external IBM QIC tape drives to go with them. >I've also got a 15" monochrome IBM monitor that has a DB9 data cable >connector. > >I've got some manuals (User's manual, problem determination guide, and >2-3 others) in the IBM binders. > >Systems are located in Austin, Texas. You'll need a good-sized pickup >truck or van to haul all of them away. If you're interested, let me know. >It sucks to let these go, but I cant afford to move them along with my >other computer equipment. > >I can be reached at mrbill@texas.net. > >-- >Bill Bradford Sr. Systems Engineer ICQ: 1864511 >mrbill@texas.net Texas Networking, Inc. http://www.texas.net > > > > > > > > > > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Nov 11 22:37:31 1997 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Challenger series In-Reply-To: <971107190612_1658237864@mrin38> Message-ID: Your right... I had forgotten about the C1P. If I'm not mistaken the earlier version of the C1P was just a board and had no case. I think you even had to provide your own power supply. Anybody else know about any Ohio Scientific gear lurking in the deep dark closet or basement? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > Actually, i have a C1P model that is untested at the moment. I also have > plenty of documentation which I have loaned out for copying purposes. My > particular model is tan with brown sides. > > david > > > In a message dated 97-11-07 12:32:24 EST, you write: > > > Whoops.... Try Challenger > > > > ========================================================= > > George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > Beaverton, Oregon > > > > On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, George Rachor wrote: > > > > > Forgive me as I have just joined the list but it seems that most of the > > > computer collections noted online have missed my favorite machine. > > > > > > My first machine was an Ohio Scientific C2-4p. I do think my most > > > efficient programming was done in that 4K of RAM. > > > > > > I no longer have the original but do have a couple of it's brothers. > The > > > last of the series was painted white and had introduced color. To > > > complete my collection I'd love to find either a C4 or C8 machine > complete > > > with Disk subsystem and software. I refuse to believe that I've got the > > > only ones left. > > > > > > George Rachor > > > > > From starling at umr.edu Tue Nov 11 23:12:54 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: FWD: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s In-Reply-To: from "Anthony Eros" at Nov 11, 97 11:14:01 pm Message-ID: <199711120512.XAA01855@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but... I contacted the guy with the IBM RTs last night and he told me that he'd gotten rid of all but two of them. Presumably, these were the ones that were more or less gutted. chris starling starling@umr.edu From starling at umr.edu Wed Nov 12 00:12:32 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific Challenger series In-Reply-To: from "George Rachor" at Nov 11, 97 08:37:31 pm Message-ID: <199711120612.AAA11407@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > > Anybody else know about any Ohio Scientific gear lurking in the deep dark > closet or basement? I've got a literal boatload of OSI equipment. However, it's all packed away in Texas and I've never really ever gotten to play with it. I'm a full time college student, plus I work like 20+ hours a week, so I rarely have time to play with my collection much. However, I _THINK_ I have a C1P "Challenger" complete with external 5.25" floppy drive box, a C4P rack-mount beastie and a C8P (or C8?) rack-mount ugly beast. I have about 6 or 7 8" floppie drives to go with it all too. I also have a lot of software on 5.25" and 8" floppies... and a lot of blank 8" floppies as well. I also have about two boxes worth of manuals and catalogs for OSI stuff. My plan is to play with all this stuff once I graduate. (Ha! like I'll ever have free time again in my life) I'd really like to set up an OSI web page because I have enough info in all the manuals to make a fairly complete site. Ahhh... but I've also been wanting to fix up my Lisa... *sob* *sniffle* chris starling starling@umr.edu From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 11 21:34:15 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Anyone have a used copy of this book? In-Reply-To: <025c31154130bb7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Message-ID: >I'm looking for the following book. Does anyone have it? Amazon wants $80+ >for it (I think that it's more of a text book than anything else). Thanks! > > Title: "An Introduction to the Intel Family of Microprocessors: A >Hands-on Approach to Utilizing the 8088 Microprocessor" by James L. >Antonakos. There are two publishing dates: 1992 and 1996. Try http://www.powells.com next to Amazon they're about the biggest bookstore in the world. Plus they've the advantage of actually being open to the public. They have a really awsome Technical bookstore. Powells is a must see if you're ever in the Portland Oregon area, it's almost a tourist attraction! However, I've no idea if they've got the book you want, and they've got some high prices at times, but the used computer books are normally less than the original cost, and somehow I doubt that book cost $80 originally! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From pcoad at wco.com Wed Nov 12 03:03:29 1997 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: FWD: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s In-Reply-To: <199711120512.XAA01855@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: Chris, On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > > I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but... > > I contacted the guy with the IBM RTs last night and he told me that he'd > gotten rid of all but two of them. Presumably, these were the ones that > were more or less gutted. > If he found homes for them where they will be used or preserved, it is not bad news. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From groberts at mitre.org Wed Nov 12 06:00:59 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Anyone have a used copy of this book? In-Reply-To: References: <025c31154130bb7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971112070059.0078f36c@mail90> At 07:34 PM 11/11/97 -0800, you wrote: >>I'm looking for the following book... Title: "An Introduction to the Intel >> Family of Microprocessors: A Hands-on Approach to Utilizing the 8088 >> Microprocessor" by James L. Antonakos. >and somehow I doubt that book cost $80 originally! the second edition is still in print and is indeed an $80+ book, see Computer Literacy Bookstore listing below. the first edition (1992) was somewhat cheaper ($70) but is out of print. sounds like an interesting book... http://www.cbooks.com/sqlnut/SP/search/gtsumt?source=&isbn=0023036230 gives: An Introduction to the Intel Family of Microprocessors: A Hands-On Approach Utilizing the 8088 Microprocessor, Second Edition Online Price: $84.00 By Antonakos, James L.; Hardcover; 675 Pages Published by Prentice Hall; 06/96; ISBN: 0023036230 In Stock - Orders received by 4 p.m. pacific time will ship the same business day Floppy included. Summary: KEY BENEFIT: Fueled by example and application, this text takes readers on an in-depth, hands-on exploration of the hardware and software--giving equal treatment to both--of the Intel 8088 microprocessor. KEY TOPICS: After examining more than 60 different applications, Antonakos guides readers through the construction and programming of their own 8088-based computer. The Second Edition expands coverage to include completely new topics while it updates treatments of existing topics, both in an overall effort to allow greater access to the power of the personal computer. +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Nov 12 10:01:41 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Correction (Classic "Laptops") Message-ID: <9710128793.AA879379487@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Earlier this week I wrote: > I wonder. A few weeks ago I bought for L1 at a car boot sale a device > called a Microscribe 320. (Made by a Welsh company, Microscribe Ltd., > but sold with a British Telecom badge.) This is a sub-notebook (7 in > square) terminal with built in text editor, 32K battery backed RAM and > 40 x 8 character display. Before you all jump on me, yes, I know it was > built circa 1983. It is a very nice machine, the only thing wrong with Further investigation shows that my estimate of 1983 was incorrect. The design of the model 320 dates from around 1985, and mine appears to have been built early in 1988. Just to keep the record straight. Philip. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Nov 12 10:48:09 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971112084609.452fd6c0@ricochet.net> At 05:45 PM 11/10/97 +0000, you wrote: >> (i.e., not looked for) the software to do it. Can someone recommend a PC >> program to read 5.25" (and 3.5"?) diskettes and make images of them? >There is... look into the simtel site and d/l several of them to try >out. Some are DOS, win3.x and win95. >I prefer to archive all of my disks to that dos based imager. I like DOS best too. I'll check it out. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Nov 12 10:48:19 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971112084620.452fe596@ricochet.net> At 07:07 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Actually, the 102 has the same size screen as the 100. Perhaps you're >>thinking of the 200? The 200 is a clamshell design (iirc) with 24x80 >>screen. The 102 was simply a lighter, cheaper-to-make version of the 100. > >Wha? Whoa! Mmmmmm, noper. The 200's screen had only twice the real estate >of the M100 -- it has a 40x16 screen. Yes it was a flip-top which was nice Whups! Sorry. Us po' kids from the big city couldn't never afford none o' dem fancy machineries. 8^) Don't know that I've ever seen a 200 (let alone a 600) in the flesh. One of these days... >(Get this -- the two halves are kept together during transit by *magnets*) Hmmm...doesn't sound like such a great idea, but i guess since it doesn't have a floppy drive... P.S., has there been any messages on the m100 list? I've not gotten any since you signed me up. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Nov 12 10:48:23 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971112084625.452f46b0@ricochet.net> At 08:47 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Now the $64 question. there was a tandy with a 80x4 or 80x8 I do remember >it as it was one of the few with a decent line length. Could that have been the WP-2? (m100-like word processor). I sure hope so, 'cause I could really use the $64... 8^) (Not including later PC laptops of course) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Wed Nov 12 11:05:13 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971112084620.452fe596@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: [Tandy Model 200] > >(Get this -- the two halves are kept together during transit by *magnets*) The fold-out display on the Olivetti M10 is also held down by a small magnet when it's closed. > > Hmmm...doesn't sound like such a great idea, but i guess since it doesn't > have a floppy drive... It always amazes people when I show them that the DEC RK05 pack (and RL0x, RK06, RK07, etc) is held to the spindle using a fairly powerful ring magnet. It never seems to damage the data on the pack, though. I believe that 3.5" floppy disks are also held onto the motor spindle using a magnet. I've not got a dismantled drive (or the service manual for the one in my PC) here, so I can't check. -tony From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Nov 12 14:11:05 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Info On PIMs wanted. Message-ID: <346A0D58.82AE6ADF@batelco.com.bh> OK, so they weren't called that early on. But still, that's what they're called now. What I really want is something small, but powerful. (This classic is going to get USED) I have two schedule programs; MS Schedule+ and a program called Sidekick 2.0, for DOS, made in the early 90's. Compatibility would help. I also want something that's not to hard to find, and I can get for less than a Palm Pilot. (A lot less, if possible.) Thanks for all of your assistance, Tim D. Hotze From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Nov 12 07:29:13 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19971112084620.452fe596@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199711121825.NAA18402@mail.cgocable.net> > > > On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > [Tandy Model 200] > > >(Get this -- the two halves are kept together during transit by *magnets*) > > The fold-out display on the Olivetti M10 is also held down by a small > magnet when it's closed. > > > > > Hmmm...doesn't sound like such a great idea, but i guess since it doesn't > > have a floppy drive... > > It always amazes people when I show them that the DEC RK05 pack (and RL0x, > RK06, RK07, etc) is held to the spindle using a fairly powerful ring > magnet. It never seems to damage the data on the pack, though. > > I believe that 3.5" floppy disks are also held onto the motor spindle > using a magnet. I've not got a dismantled drive (or the service manual for > the one in my PC) here, so I can't check. > > -tony Iomega from early ones all the way to Zip and Jaz, Syquest series, 3.5" fd's, even the short time 2.5" hd removable drive has it. Few of them has electromagnetic ring instead of magnet ring. Troll From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Nov 12 13:08:08 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Sick PDP-8/f: Need Diode Info! In-Reply-To: <199711121300.AA073939602@drs-esg.com> from "David Gesswein" at Nov 12, 97 08:00:02 am Message-ID: <199711121908.LAA11088@fraser> Hi David: > boards for decoupling capacitors, if their is one near each chip then that > is what it is, any .01uf ceramic would replace it. It would be on the > traces to the corner power and ground pins. Well there ARE a bunch of them, they ARE near several ICs, and they are in parallel with one side at ground. I think you're right. I think I have found the major problem with my board: The symptom I'm experiencing is that the DC OK H line, nominally 3.2V, drops to 2.2V when the M8310 is inserted into the backplane, and then the machine doesn't work anymore (not really, just can't RUN from the toggle switches). This voltage stays constant at 3.2V either on an empty backplane, or with all boards except the M8310 installed. Put the 8310 in and the voltage drops to 2.2V. I've traced this DC OK H pin to the input of a 7404 IC on the 8310 board. With power off, the gate's input and output are seen to be at ground, i.e. I think the gate is shorted. I wonder if you could look at your printset and see where the DC OK H line actually goes and what happens after the 7404? I think this is a bad chip. Thanks in advance, Kevin > > If you need any more help email me > > David Gesswein. > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From Zeus334 at aol.com Wed Nov 12 15:18:28 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: System/34 Message-ID: <971112161109_-1476271350@mrin84.mail.aol.com> Sorry, folks. I've been asking around about what a System/74 is. I looked, and it's really a System/34. Could someone tell me what they were for, how much they were sold for, what year they are, what they're worth now, etc,etc. Thanks. By the way, I may be able to get my hands on those unidentified IBM network cards, maybe I can get a couple or two. I'll also look if I can find a hub for them. There are also some PS/2s (not for sale), which used to be attached to the network, which is now ethernet. The PS/2s, however, have a weird cable that looks like the monitor power cable. It has a box on the end, about 1" X 1", that has a ton of electrodes. What is that? From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 12 16:34:38 1997 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971112084609.452fd6c0@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 05:45 PM 11/10/97 +0000, you wrote: > >> (i.e., not looked for) the software to do it. Can someone recommend a PC > >> program to read 5.25" (and 3.5"?) diskettes and make images of them? > > >There is... look into the simtel site and d/l several of them to try > >out. Some are DOS, win3.x and win95. > >I prefer to archive all of my disks to that dos based imager. > > I like DOS best too. I'll check it out. Thanks! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > There is a file on IBM's site (www.pc.ibm.com(?)) in pub/pccbs/os2-ews/ called loaddf.zip. It contains several files including savedskf.exe and loaddskf.exe which create and restore a DOS disk to an image file. It was written by some IBM employees and IBM used to use it to create and distribute reference disks and such. They founf, however, that their typical customer was incapable of reading and understanding rather simple instructions needed to make it work. It has been superseded by an advanced version of Sydex CopyQM that will make self-extracting image files. (Is there a message there about typical IBM users?) - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Nov 12 16:22:36 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Need Info: Sick PDP-8/f (Diode) In-Reply-To: <199711122048.AA11536@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 12, 97 03:48:24 pm Message-ID: <199711122222.OAA04802@fraser> Hi Allison: > <> Your best bet is the 1N914 silicon diode. The one your replacing is likel > <> not germainium. 1n914s are available from many sources (even radio crap > <> for a few cents a peice. > > Trust me they are not caps, the part someone described would come into > common use about 5-8 years later! To tell if they are diodes an > ohmeter(VOM) and check for resistance one way and open circuit the other. > No resistance in either direction is a cap! I spoke with a fellow who has a print set for the board, he indicated that there are no diodes on the board at all. There are, however, quite a few bypass caps shown on the schematic. My glass devices are all in parallel, each associated to a particular, IC, and are grounded on the other lead. I will have to remove an intact one to check resistance and determine what they are. Thanks for the reply, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Nov 12 16:45:53 1997 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Qume Message-ID: <199711122245.RAA08402@webern.cs.unc.edu> Thanks for the tips! I had found something that I suspected was an optical sensor, but wasn't too sure. And cleaning it out as best I could didn't change anything. Of course, I couldn't get at the thing very well. And, as Tony pointed out, common-sense wiring of the thing would mean the problem couldn't have been just a dirty lens. The good news is that I have a working drive to compare against, so tracing the problem shouldn't be that hard. Maybe this weekend... ] Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:28:14 +0000 (GMT) ] From: Tony Duell ] Subject: Re: Qume? ] ] On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Bill Yakowenko wrote: blah, blah, blah... ] Lots of useful bits deleted... ] ] ... It shouldn't be too hard to trace the signal from the ] phototransistor to the Trk00 pin through the logic chips, though. You'd think so. The last time I tried fixing these drives (a couple years ago) I was trying to work backwards from the select LED. Had big problems tracing the circuit because the traces go under chips, and often turn corners under there, so you can't see which ones go where. And I was paranoid about using a continuity-checker for fear of putting voltage someplace where it could do damage. (Was that being excessive?) On the other hand, it should be trivial to measure voltage of the Trk00 signal at the connector, and see if it was getting that far. Divide and conquer - the first secret of debugging. ] ] -tony ] Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:05:15 -0800 (PST) ] From: Tim Shoppa ] Subject: Re: Qume? ] ] > ...got service manuals?... ] ] I wish I did. What model do you have? I'm looking for manuals ] for the Qume Datatrack 8 (DSDD, full-height.) They are DT/8's, full height, I think DSDD (a megabyte per floppy). ] But lacking a manual, you still can trace the circuitry by hand; ] it's all SSI TTL, discrete components, and a couple of simple ] analog chips. Yup. Sounds easy. If I wasn't so @#!% paranoid with the meter. ] ] Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) ] Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:33:51 +0000 (GMT) ] From: Tony Duell ] Subject: Re: Qume? ] ... ] Still blowing dust out of the sensor can't do any harm, and it's something ] that I'd do first anyway, as it can't help the problem. ] Will try it again, disassembling the thing if necessary to get access. ] ] -tony Thanks guys! Bill. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Nov 12 16:57:56 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: [11/34A] ARRRRGH!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Can you halt the CPU (RUN light off) from the panel? If not, then you've > probably got grant problems. That's it. When I push CTRL/HALT, I get BUS ERR. > Try pulling the terminator (M9302 card, I > think - anyway it's in the far left slot). If you can now halt the CPU > from the panel, you've certainly got grant problems. > Okay... You're right. I've got grant trouble. > OK. They're on the 3rd connector from the back (2 connectors behind them, > 3 in front). They're the rearmost 2 pins on the righthand side (looking > from the _TOP_ of the backplane). You'll find they're linked by a little > loop of wire close to the backplane. That's what you should have cut. > > What, in fact, did you cut? I have to look later, I have work to do. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Nov 12 17:27:41 1997 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:33 2005 Subject: Encore Computer Infinity 90 System Message-ID: <199711122327.SAA08500@webern.cs.unc.edu> Anybody know what it is? There's one up for grabs in OK, by US govt. auction. Here's a URL; dork around with it to find related info: http://www.drms.dla.mil/drmo/sales/misc/SY3AFB20377002A157-1.html Looks pretty cool, but it's a thousand or two miles from here... Bill. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Nov 12 17:56:11 1997 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 866 lbs Message-ID: <199711122356.SAA08510@webern.cs.unc.edu> Another lot up for bid. After this one, I'll stop. Honest. Taken from http://www.drms.dla.mil/national/catalogs/318306CH.html . As before, muck with the URL to find related info. Cheers, Bill. | ********************************************************** | ITEMS 8 THRU 9 ARE LOCATED AT | NWC CHINA LAKE NAVAL WEAPONS CENTER CODE 7, BLDG 1073 | CHINA LAKE, CA 93555-6001 | ********************************************************** | 9. AUTOMATIC DATA PROCESSING EQUIPMENT: | Including: Apple Laser Writer printer, Digital | Monitors, Printers, Terminals, Multiplexers, Computers, | Keyboards and Power Controls, IBM Disk Drives and | Terminals, etc. | DEMIL CODE B | | CONTACT: SAMUEL J. BROWN PHONE: (760) 939-2502 | Inside - COB010208A,B,CN. | Loose on pallets. | Used - FAIR | Total Cost - $150941.94 | Est Total Wt - 866 lbs. | 1 LOT | | THE FOLLOWING ARTICLES APPLY: | PART 05-I: Military Munitions List Items (MLI). | PART 05-K: Munitions List and Strategic List Items | (MLI/SLI) Compliance. | | END USE CERTIFICATE APPLIES AND MUST BE COMPLETED AND | SUBMITTED WITH BIDS FOR THIS ITEM. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Nov 12 18:13:00 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Encore Computer Infinity 90 System In-Reply-To: <199711122327.SAA08500@webern.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Nov 12, 97 06:27:41 pm Message-ID: <9711130013.AA02877@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 546 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971112/a3fcd57c/attachment.ksh From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Nov 12 18:29:10 1997 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Caution! Message-ID: <199711130029.TAA08598@webern.cs.unc.edu> I just noticed in poking around this goverment auction stuff, a lot of the computer stuff is marked with codes F# or H#, which can mean it is radioactive. Yikes! Read the fine print before bidding! But that Encore system is listed as A1 - in good working order, etc. And another list showed it's original list price as something like 2.4 megabucks. Pretty picture, too. Bill. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Nov 12 18:31:50 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: [11/34A] ARRRRGH!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > OK. They're on the 3rd connector from the back (2 connectors behind them, > 3 in front). They're the rearmost 2 pins on the righthand side (looking > from the _TOP_ of the backplane). You'll find they're linked by a little > loop of wire close to the backplane. That's what you should have cut. > > What, in fact, did you cut? 4th set from the frontpanel, pins 1 and 2 closest to the PSU. PSU 6 5 4 \ 3 2 1 From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Nov 12 18:33:42 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: [11/34A] ARRRRGH!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > OK. They're on the 3rd connector from the back (2 connectors behind them, > 3 in front). They're the rearmost 2 pins on the righthand side (looking > from the _TOP_ of the backplane). You'll find they're linked by a little > loop of wire close to the backplane. That's what you should have cut. > Do you mean back as in PSU side or back as in frontpanel side? From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Nov 12 19:36:38 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: FWD: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971113013638.006983cc@pop3.concentric.net> I'm open for it, anyone else ? At 11:14 PM 11/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >I'd like to snag one of those as well. Any chance of doing some sort of coordinated roadtrip with folks meeting in a central place for distribution? > >-- Tony Eros > Digital Equipment Corporation > >---------- >From: John R. Keys Jr.[SMTP:jrkeys@concentric.net] >Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 1997 7:44 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: FWD: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s > >If no one close want them I could drive from Minnesota to your home a >meeting place close to the IL border one of these weekends before snow hits. >John >At 09:16 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Found the following on comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt >>Anybody near him wanna rescue these machines. >> >>I acquired one about a month ago here in Indiana, along >>with a fairly complete set of books and disks. Mine has >>two ESDI drives (300mb & 110mb) and loaded with >>AIX 2.2. It's a tower case about 24" x 24" x 9". >>If I remember the front panel says System 135. >> >>Mike Thompson >> >>================================================== >>Subject: FREE to good home: IBM RT 6150s >>From: Bill Bradford >>Date: Sun, Nov 9, 1997 20:52 EST >>Message-id: <645pd8$cbc$1@news3.texas.net> >> >>I recently acquired this whole bunch, with the intention of getting >>at least a couple of them reloaded and working; however, I've now >>got plans to move soon, and cant afford to move these machines. I'd >>like to see them go to a good home; so they're free to the first >>person to come pick them up. >> >>System Configurations: (6 systems) >> EAP processors (16mb RAM each) >> dual ESDI hard drives (unknown size) >> SIIG ISA-bus I/O cards >> Graphic cards with 6153 mono monitors >> Ethernet (AUI / 10base2) cards >> ESDI controller cards >> >>The other system only has the HDs and ESDI controller card (no CPU card >> or other cards). Also, one of the above systems is lacking the 1.2mb >>floppy drive; it may be the same system that is lacking a CPU card. >> >>I beleive 3 or 4 of the machines also have tape drive controller >>cards; and I have three external IBM QIC tape drives to go with them. >>I've also got a 15" monochrome IBM monitor that has a DB9 data cable >>connector. >> >>I've got some manuals (User's manual, problem determination guide, and >>2-3 others) in the IBM binders. >> >>Systems are located in Austin, Texas. You'll need a good-sized pickup >>truck or van to haul all of them away. If you're interested, let me know. >>It sucks to let these go, but I cant afford to move them along with my >>other computer equipment. >> >>I can be reached at mrbill@texas.net. >> >>-- >>Bill Bradford Sr. Systems Engineer ICQ: 1864511 >>mrbill@texas.net Texas Networking, Inc. http://www.texas.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Nov 12 21:28:29 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Caution! In-Reply-To: <199711130029.TAA08598@webern.cs.unc.edu> from "Bill Yakowenko" at Nov 12, 97 07:29:10 pm Message-ID: <9711130328.AA06767@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971112/61ef2999/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Nov 12 17:30:10 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Need Info: Sick PDP-8/f (Diode) In-Reply-To: <199711122222.OAA04802@fraser> References: <199711122048.AA11536@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 12, 97 03:48:24 pm Message-ID: <199711130426.XAA05639@mail.cgocable.net> > Hi Allison: > > > <> Your best bet is the 1N914 silicon diode. The one your replacing is likel > > <> not germainium. 1n914s are available from many sources (even radio crap > > <> for a few cents a peice. > > > > Trust me they are not caps, the part someone described would come into > > common use about 5-8 years later! To tell if they are diodes an > > ohmeter(VOM) and check for resistance one way and open circuit the other. > > No resistance in either direction is a cap! > > I spoke with a fellow who has a print set for the board, he indicated that > there are no diodes on the board at all. There are, however, quite a few > bypass caps shown on the schematic. My glass devices are all in parallel, > each associated to a particular, IC, and are grounded on the other lead. > > I will have to remove an intact one to check resistance and determine what > they are. > > Thanks for the reply, > > Kevin > > > -- > Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD > mcquiggi@sfu.ca > Kevin, Those glassy thingy are in fact are bypass caps especially if they're hooked to both ground and 5v planes and very close to IC's. Otherwise an expensive resistor! Troll From JAiken8269 at aol.com Wed Nov 12 22:53:18 1997 From: JAiken8269 at aol.com (JAiken8269@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 11/44's Message-ID: <971112235318_866125597@mrin44.mail.aol.com> I saw your request for info regarding UNIBUS pinouts. I will try to look them up for you... no promises though. I have a complete set of 11/44 boards and a couple of 1 MB memory boards for it. Would you be interested in them? Reasonable offers or begging will be considered. John Aiken JAiken8269@aol.com From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Thu Nov 13 03:25:25 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: [11/34A] ARRRRGH!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > > > OK. They're on the 3rd connector from the back (2 connectors behind them, > > 3 in front). They're the rearmost 2 pins on the righthand side (looking > > from the _TOP_ of the backplane). You'll find they're linked by a little > > loop of wire close to the backplane. That's what you should have cut. > > > > What, in fact, did you cut? > > 4th set from the frontpanel, pins 1 and 2 closest to the PSU. > > PSU > 6 > > 5 > > 4 \ > > 3 > > 2 > > 1 > It sounds like you cut the right thing. I think it's high time we used the official DEC naming of the pins to avoid confusion (Should this go in a FAQ somewhere??) OK. The complete hex slots are _numbered_, starting with 1 on the far right. In an 11/34 the CPU boards are in slots 1 and 2. The individual subslots (6 to a slot here) are lettered, with A nearest the PSU and F nearest the front panel in this machine. If you pull a card, set it down component side up, edge fingers towards you, then A is on the right, F on the left The pins in the slot are also lettered, using DEC's alphabet which avoids characters that could be confused. Starting at the back (PSU side), they are called : A B C D E F H J K L M N P R S T U V. The sides of the board are numbered. Side 1 is the component side, Side 2 is the solder side. Now, you want to cut the jumper between CA1 and CB1 (the 2 pins are on the same connector). So, that's on the 3rd connector from the PSU (2 between it and the PSU, 3 between it and the front panel), the rearmost (closest to the PSU) 2 pins on the component side of the board. Can you find it from that description? Just one quick thing. Pull the UDA50 cards. Check that (a) one of the cards (I think it's the one without the disk cable) has traces from those 2 pins going into the logic and (b) the other card has these 2 pins shorted together. > -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Thu Nov 13 03:27:15 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: [11/34A] ARRRRGH!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Do you mean back as in PSU side or back as in frontpanel side? > > > Back == towards the PSU. I almost always give locations as if you're standing in front of the machine (frontpanel nearest to you, PSU away from you) with the machine the right way up. You did cut the jumper on the right 2 slots, I assume. It's easy to make a mistake and go one slot further over. -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Thu Nov 13 03:35:49 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Qume In-Reply-To: <199711122245.RAA08402@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > where. And I was paranoid about using a continuity-checker for fear > of putting voltage someplace where it could do damage. (Was that > being excessive?) I've used a continuity checker on computer bits many times without any damage at all. You do need to make sure that your continuity checker doesn't give out excessive voltage, though. I have a homebrew one that's limited to a _maximum_ of 2V at the probe tips. A DMM should be fine as well. Take care if using an analogue multimeter - ones that use a 1.5V or 3V battery for the ohms ranges should be fine, but I'd not use one with a higher voltage than that. Whatever you do don't use a high-voltage insulation tester. I suspect the new HP logic DART would be great for this - after all, that's what it's designed for. Haven't got one - yet - though. > > On the other hand, it should be trivial to measure voltage of the Trk00 > signal at the connector, and see if it was getting that far. Divide > and conquer - the first secret of debugging. The Trk00 signal at the connector is (a) only enabled when the drive is selected and (b) is an open-collector signal terminated (I think) at the controller. So if it's high at the drive when the drive is deselected, the controller cable must be OK. And you know the controller itself is OK. As a first guess, trace the trk00 pin on the drive back to the chip that drives it (probably a 7438 or similar). Look at the inputs to that - are they ever in the state that would make the output active (low)? If so, change the driver chip - I've had a number of those fail. > Thanks guys! > Bill. > -tony From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Nov 13 05:48:07 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: System/34 Message-ID: <9710138794.AA879450685@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Sorry, folks. I've been asking around about what a System/74 is. I looked, > and it's really a System/34. Could someone tell me what they were for, how > much they were sold for, what year they are, what they're worth now, etc,etc. > Thanks. I used a System'34 when I worked for IBM in 1985-86. It was old then - late '70s?. I seem to remember about 224K of RAM, possibly 256MB of hard disk. There were a number of posts on this subject on this list in late September - start with the thread on IBM 5120 on 18th. I would be very sad to see such a system vanish - I have a certain affection for it after discovering that I - the newest student - knew more about system/34s than anyone else in the building (this wasn't much - the building housed two marketing units). If you - or someone - do manage to acquire this sys/34, I may have some spare copies of one or two pocket quick reference guides I could send you. I'm pretty sure I've got OCL pocket reference (about 1/2 inch thick) and I may have the Assembler pocket reference. Finally, where is this machine? If it is in England or Wales I might consider acquiring it myself... Philip. From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Nov 13 06:07:36 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 6800 Message-ID: <346AED88.76EF@ndirect.co.uk> I have a spare new 6800 which I would like to swap for a similar 8080. Any taker? Thank you enrico -- ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website: ============================================================ From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 13 09:05:51 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 6800 Message-ID: <199711131505.AA06343@world.std.com> Hi ya. I have a Victor 9000 computer. Is this a DOS machine or a CP/M machine? I cannot get it to boot from a disk (MS-DOS 3.2) and I haven't found anymore information on it. Anything you can tell me abut it will be great. Thanks Anthony (Tony) Lee From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Nov 13 09:41:35 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <9710138794.AA879464725@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Hi ya. I have a Victor 9000 computer. Is this a DOS machine or a CP/M > machine? I cannot get it to boot from a disk (MS-DOS 3.2) and I haven't > found anymore information on it. Anything you can tell me abut it will > be great. Thanks AFAIK, both DOS and CP/M86 were available for it. It is not IBM compatible, though - neither the architecture nor the disk format - so attempting to boot from a PC disk won't achieve much. I have an Act Sirius-1 which I believe is a re-badged Victor 9000. If the worst comes to the worst I can attempt to copy some disks and snail-mail them to you. However I am in the UK and I imagine you are in the US, so you ought to be able to find people to help you nearer at hand... Philip. From Aperiodic at aol.com Thu Nov 13 09:44:27 1997 From: Aperiodic at aol.com (Aperiodic@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <971113104425_1237460309@mrin51.mail.aol.com> To All: Know where I might be able to obtain MS-DOS 3.2, 3.3, or 4.0 on a 5.25" disks? This would be for an older machine--my only other alternative is to remove a 5.25" drive and plug it into my "newer" HP, download DOS and CP/M from the internet, and save it to this drive. Anybody else had to do something similar to get a boot disk for their older computer? Any experiences would be extremely helpful. Sam From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 13 10:12:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 6800 In-Reply-To: <346AED88.76EF@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Nov 13, 97 12:07:36 pm Message-ID: <9711131612.AA01891@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 221 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971113/52c117dd/attachment.ksh From manney at nwohio.com Mon Nov 10 15:45:36 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Finds & Questions Message-ID: <199711131700.JAA23886@mx3.u.washington.edu> >HP 75D with 9114 disk drive -- $25 > >My questions concern this last one. The computer itself is about 5" deep by >10" wide by about an inch thick. It has room for three expansion modules >(has two: "Barcode Reader" and "HP 75 I/O") and four connectors on the rear. >Two are in and out to the 9114, one is power (I'm pretty sure) but I'm not >sure about the last. Perhaps input for the barcode wand? What does the mystery connector look like? manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Mon Nov 10 15:46:22 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Message-ID: <199711131700.JAA03878@mx2.u.washington.edu> DOS or CP/M? manney@nwohio.com > I just bought a DEC Rainbow, does anyone have any idea where I can get a >boot disk for it? > > Thanks > Charlie Fox > > > From manney at nwohio.com Mon Nov 10 15:11:43 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: STuff Message-ID: <199711131700.JAA16214@mx4.u.washington.edu> I'm interested in the 386's...are they boards, or complete systems? manney@nwohio.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Manney Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 3:48 PM Subject: STuff >I have a bunch of wyse 60 terminals, a couple of 386's, an old printer >and various boards etc. Anyone interested. >"Janet Paganelli" > > From manney at nwohio.com Mon Nov 10 16:00:44 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711131705.JAA16751@mx4.u.washington.edu> I dunno...I dropped one off my desk (2 1/2 ft), and it survived fine. I dropped a 1.2 GB HDD (WD, I think) BRAND NEW off my desk onto a carpet, and it died (couldn't have been a ST-157, no-o-o-o.) Depends on how it bounces, I guess. Anyone wanna try this with a 9 gig, in the interests of science? >Now.... just for fun, try to get a modern PC, drop it on your toe (A >sacrifice for science) and then watch it break into DOZENS of piece. Chip >out of socket, RAM out of socket, motherboard out of case, power supply out >of case, HDD crashed, disk drive not in a working condition, CD-ROM drive's >laser swears that there's no disk in. They don't make 'em like they used >to!!! > >---------- >From: Jeff Beoletto >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad >Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 6:28 PM > > > >On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > >> On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Hotze wrote: >> >> > At 23:18 11/7/97 +0000, you wrote: >> > >I am conviced that a lot of people (probably not on this list) >wouldn't >> > >know a well-designed or well-built computer if it was dropped on >them... >> > >> > Naturally not, they'd be too busy limping around howling. >> > >> >> I DID THAT! I DID THAT! I successfully managed to crush Jeff Beoletto's >> (One of my friends) toes with >> a PDP-11/44. We were trying to move it sideways. BTW, his foot healed >up >> quite well. And he wasn't limping around, he was curled up in a little >> ball on the floor, cussing a blue streak :) A week ago we were moving >the >> RA81, and I almost did it again... >> >> >> > Seeing how it was me that Dan managed to drop it I can agree to >the limping, and ironically enough it's the same foot that I had broken 3 >times in the month before he crushed it. And just yesterday hauling a pc >down to our storagge office on the 5th floor I tripped and fell down the >steps and have just re-broken that very same ankle. Computers are >hazerdous to your health. =+) > > > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 13 11:08:42 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 6800 In-Reply-To: <9711131612.AA01891@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Nov 13, 97 08:12:02 am Message-ID: <9711131708.AA08114@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 403 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971113/99317c80/attachment.ksh From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Nov 13 12:41:34 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 6800 References: <9711131708.AA08114@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <346B49DE.30B6@ndirect.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > I have a spare new 6800 which I would like to swap for a similar 8080. > > > > I doubt you'll have any takers from the US, where 6800's and 8080A's are > > available new for US$1-$2 from many suppliers. > > In particular, Jameco (1-800-831-4242 from US/Canada, 1-650-592-8097 > from ROW) lists the 8080A as part number 52046, $1.25 each. The > 6800 is part number 43481, $1.49 each. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) Aaaaah! but does the "A" at the end of the number makes any difference? I think it does: it's not THE 8080 then. enrico -- ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website: ============================================================ From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Nov 13 13:00:51 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 6800 References: <9711131708.AA08114@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <346B4E63.13F1@ndirect.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > I have a spare new 6800 which I would like to swap for a similar 8080. > > > > I doubt you'll have any takers from the US, where 6800's and 8080A's are > > available new for US$1-$2 from many suppliers. > > In particular, Jameco (1-800-831-4242 from US/Canada, 1-650-592-8097 > from ROW) lists the 8080A as part number 52046, $1.25 each. The > 6800 is part number 43481, $1.49 each. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) I have just done a search in the Jameco catalogue and although there are some 8080A for sale the 6800 seem NOT to be available anymore..... -- ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website: ============================================================ From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 13 14:14:16 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 6800 Message-ID: <199711132014.AA14900@world.std.com> In a message dated 97-11-13 06:51:18 EST, you write: << Subj: Re: System/34 Date: 97-11-13 06:51:18 EST From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu (Discussion re-collecting of classic computers) > Sorry, folks. I've been asking around about what a System/74 is. I looked, > and it's really a System/34. Could someone tell me what they were for, how > much they were sold for, what year they are, what they're worth now, etc,etc. > Thanks. I used a System'34 when I worked for IBM in 1985-86. It was old then - late '70s?. I seem to remember about 224K of RAM, possibly 256MB of hard disk. There were a number of posts on this subject on this list in late September - start with the thread on IBM 5120 on 18th. I would be very sad to see such a system vanish - I have a certain affection for it after discovering that I - the newest student - knew more about system/34s than anyone else in the building (this wasn't much - the building housed two marketing units). If you - or someone - do manage to acquire this sys/34, I may have some spare copies of one or two pocket quick reference guides I could send you. I'm pretty sure I've got OCL pocket reference (about 1/2 inch thick) and I may have the Assembler pocket reference. Finally, where is this machine? If it is in England or Wales I might consider acquiring it myself... Philip. >> This machine is in Boston, MA, USA. It also has three very ugly terminals - anyone know what kind? From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Nov 13 14:43:16 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 6800 References: <199711132014.AA14742@world.std.com> Message-ID: <346B6664.3F01@ndirect.co.uk> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Then you know not the 8080! Actually the A was identical save for the NEC > 8080 which was interchangeable in most cases but, had a different Hold > state, they corrected that with the 8080AF part. Generally the answer is > no it makes no difference. > > Allison It DOES make a difference to me! An historical difference... enrico -- ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website: ============================================================ From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Nov 13 14:44:09 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 6800 References: <199711132014.AA14900@world.std.com> Message-ID: <346B6699.1540@ndirect.co.uk> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I just got hardcopy catalong this week and also checked on line. They have > it! > > The 8080A is the same thing and the 6800 also came in a B part (different > speed). > > Allison Well I want it for my CPU collection and therefore it is QUITE different to me... enrico -- ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website: ============================================================ From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Nov 13 14:46:06 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 6800 References: <199711132014.AA14900@world.std.com> Message-ID: <346B670E.44E9@ndirect.co.uk> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I just got hardcopy catalong this week and also checked on line. They have > it! > > The 8080A is the same thing and the 6800 also came in a B part (different > speed). > > Allison I checked again and....it's there! I might have done an error in the imput search. Thank you. Now before I do any more errors, does anybody know where I can get an 4004 and an 8008 ??? enrico -- ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website: ============================================================ From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 13 14:44:45 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: System/34 Message-ID: <199711132044.AA11648@world.std.com> < >> In a message dated 97-11-13 10:46:26 EST, you write: << Subj: Re: Victor 9000 Date: 97-11-13 10:46:26 EST From: Aperiodic@aol.com Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu (Discussion re-collecting of classic computers) To All: Know where I might be able to obtain MS-DOS 3.2, 3.3, or 4.0 on a 5.25" disks? This would be for an older machine--my only other alternative is to remove a 5.25" drive and plug it into my "newer" HP, download DOS and CP/M from the internet, and save it to this drive. Anybody else had to do something similar to get a boot disk for their older computer? Any experiences would be extremely helpful. Sam >> I could probably get you a full distribution of MS-DOS 3.2, with manual, reference cards, etc. It depends where I have to ship it. There are maybe 5 copies, so if anyone else wants them.... From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Nov 13 15:05:36 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Docs wanted: Scantron OMR units Message-ID: Snickering quietly at the visions of people fleeing in terror and revulsion... B^} I'm seeking some docs on a couple of recent additions to the collection. (be kind, they both have microprocessors so they at least kind of fall into the charter) I've rescued a Scantron 888MP test scorer OMR unit and a model 8400 (option 40) OMR page reader, both (of course) with no docs, information, or software. (for the 8400 at least, the 888MP is a stanmd-alone) So... after the prerequsite inquires toward Scantron (which so far have netted a couple of nice catalogs, and an offer to sell me the latest/neatest units, but nothing useful for what I've got... I turn here... So... if anyone has (or has access to) spare manuals (or copies thereof), I'd appreciate hearing from you... Hey, this could even be an opportunity to dump that carton of old Scantron (bubble) forms you have been using for note pads and connect the dot (bubble?) games! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From engine at chac.org Thu Nov 13 15:24:00 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: DOS versions Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971113131048.00f6b360@pop.batnet.com> At 15:52 11/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >I could probably get you a full distribution of MS-DOS 3.2, with manual, >reference cards, etc. It depends where I have to ship it. There are maybe 5 >copies, so if anyone else wants them.... Do remember, though, that of the DOSes under discussion in this thread, both 3.2 and 4.0 were prone to notably ugly behavior. The fix to 3.2 was 3.3, the fix to 4.0 was 4.01. Of that list, what I would hold out for is either 3.3, which was quite good, or Compaq 3.31, which was the jewel in the crown. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From engine at chac.org Thu Nov 13 15:24:01 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Bogus CD drive Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971113132353.00f74c70@pop.batnet.com> Disclaimer: This is not a ten-year-old topic and you are free to ignore the message as you see fit. I write, however, in full confidence that someone reading this can answer the question. My primary computer has a Toshiba 3401 (couple-years-old) caddy-type SCSI CD drive in it. This is from back when they were expensive and built like tanks. It is now generally choking on software CD's and skipping horribly on audio CD's. My Wintel guru says that it is literally not worth trying to clean the thing, that the cost of a cleaning will exceed the cost of a new 8X or 10X SCSI CD drive, and the bother of going inside the case, removing, and re-installing will be the same. I hate to pitch this drive, it's worked so well; is there anything non-invasive I can try before I give up on it? thanks much, __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Nov 13 15:46:56 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: Caution! In-Reply-To: <9711130328.AA06767@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Tim Shoppa | Internet: shoppa@triumf.ca > TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6446 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hey Tim, what is a Meson Facility anyway? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Nov 13 15:53:32 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: 11/44's In-Reply-To: <971112235318_866125597@mrin44.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 JAiken8269@aol.com wrote: > I saw your request for info regarding UNIBUS pinouts. I will try to look > them up for you... no promises though. > > I have a complete set of 11/44 boards and a couple of 1 MB memory boards for > it. Would you be interested in them? Reasonable offers or begging will be > considered. > Tell Tim Shoppa, he'd be VERY interested! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Nov 13 16:11:49 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:34 2005 Subject: [11/34A] ARRRRGH!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > The individual subslots (6 to a slot here) are lettered, with A nearest > the PSU and F nearest the front panel in this machine. If you pull a > card, set it down component side up, edge fingers towards you, then A is > on the right, F on the left Alright. > > The pins in the slot are also lettered, using DEC's alphabet which avoids > characters that could be confused. Starting at the back (PSU side), they > are called : A B C D E F H J K L M N P R S T U V. > OK > The sides of the board are numbered. Side 1 is the component side, Side 2 > is the solder side. > > Now, you want to cut the jumper between CA1 and CB1 (the 2 pins are on the > same connector). So, that's on the 3rd connector from the PSU (2 between > it and the PSU, 3 between it and the front panel), the rearmost (closest > to the PSU) 2 pins on the component side of the board. > Can you find it from that description? Uhh... That's what I already cut. Looks like something WORSE is screwed up... > Just one quick thing. Pull the UDA50 cards. Check that (a) one of the > cards (I think it's the one without the disk cable) has traces from those > 2 pins going into the logic and (b) the other card has these 2 pins > shorted together. The board with the drive connector has them shorted, and the one without the cable has them going off into the logic. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Nov 13 16:13:54 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: System/34 In-Reply-To: <971113152516_1912720607@mrin46.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: > This machine is in Boston, MA, USA. It also has three very ugly terminals - > anyone know what kind? > I have one available here, in Peoria, IL... Anyone want it? I can't store it... It has all sortsa 8" floppies with it... From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Nov 13 16:16:58 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What is this? I have one. Some guy brought it in, said it was an XT he got at a garage sale, and wanted it upgraded. Bought it for $10. No video or whatever... Is it a PDP relative? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 13 17:17:29 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: 6800 Message-ID: <199711132317.AA09390@world.std.com> Message-ID: > > This machine is in Boston, MA, USA. It also has three very ugly terminals - > > anyone know what kind? IBM terminals are know for being ugly... Anyway, if the Boston System/34 is available, perhaps the RCS/RI people might want it. > I have one available here, in Peoria, IL... > Anyone want it? I can't store it... > It has all sortsa 8" floppies with it... It might not be a bad idea to grab the floppies, even if you can not find a taker for the hardware. William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 13 17:27:20 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100 Message-ID: <199711132327.AA17512@world.std.com> ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14 ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:25:07 I just got a DECserver 200/MC to act as a termserver for my 11/34 when it comes back up... ANyone know how to get setup on here? This may not count as a computer, but I do need help... From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Nov 13 16:15:20 1997 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: 6800 In-Reply-To: <199711132014.AA14900@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4D0CD0BF5450@ifrsys.com> > > The 8080A is the same thing and the 6800 also came in a B part (different > speed). > > Allison > > And for you REAL hard-core CPU collectors, remember that Moto marked their pilot runs of parts (usually distributed as samples) with an 'XC' prefix! I once had an XC6800 in one of my ss-50's! It was in what I can only describe as a 'clay' (okay, some wierd ceramic material) package. Never saw anything like it before or since. Jeff From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 13 17:44:15 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100 In-Reply-To: <199711132327.AA17512@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 13, 97 06:27:20 pm Message-ID: <9711132344.AA09470@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 998 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971113/efa29600/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Nov 13 18:24:49 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971114002449.00697830@pop3.concentric.net> Do a web search there many rainbow sites that offer software for download. At 04:46 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: > DOS or CP/M? > >manney@nwohio.com > >> I just bought a DEC Rainbow, does anyone have any idea where I can get a >>boot disk for it? >> >> Thanks >> Charlie Fox >> >> >> > > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Nov 13 18:34:04 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Kim Help Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971114003404.0069a8a4@pop3.concentric.net> Today I picked up a KIM-1 with Commodore/MOS label for free they had it in the trash at the yard. No power supply was with it and they sold these for 169.99 with power supply. Anyone have information or know were I can get a power supply for this unit? Thanks John Keep Computing !!! From lfb107 at psu.edu Thu Nov 13 18:44:42 1997 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Caution! Message-ID: <199711140046.TAA76256@r02n02.cac.psu.edu> >On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> Tim Shoppa | Internet: shoppa@triumf.ca >> TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6446 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Hey Tim, what is a Meson Facility anyway? > Mesons are simply either pions, muons, or kasons! That's all! LeS From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Nov 13 19:24:23 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971114012423.0068b610@pop3.concentric.net> This machine came with a green-phosphor, slow-phosphor screen that's sharp and rock steady. The screen tilts up and down and left and right for maximum comfort. It has a silent keyboard with a large shift key next to the Z, the return key is also large, and the cursor-movement keys are separate from the numeric keypad. The disk drives are 5 1/4-inch and hold 640k each and are expandable to 1200k each. 128k of user programmable memory is standard. It sold for $4995 new. It had a 16-bit processor like the IBM and you could buy a plug-in card that increased the memory by 64k for $600 that also had the Z-80 microprocessor on it and allows you to run CP/M. This was called a Victor-80 Card. The 9000 does excellent monochrome graphics but it will not do color graphics. Hopes this info helps John Keep Computing !!! At 10:21 AM 11/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >Hi ya. I have a Victor 9000 computer. Is this a DOS machine or a CP/M >machine? I cannot get it to boot from a disk (MS-DOS 3.2) and I haven't >found anymore information on it. Anything you can tell me abut it will >be great. Thanks > >Anthony (Tony) Lee > > > From danjo at xnet.com Thu Nov 13 19:42:45 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Kim Help In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971114003404.0069a8a4@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Today I picked up a KIM-1 with Commodore/MOS label for free they had it in > the trash at the yard. No power supply was with it and they sold these for > 169.99 with power supply. Anyone have information or know were I can get a > power supply for this unit? Any 5VDC should work. I have one and run it off about all PS I have 8-) There is a Zener diode to help regulate (in between the connectors) and you don't need +-12 unless you use the 20ma Current Loop to a ASR-33 and the tape interface. > Thanks John Keep Computing !!! Use email if you need LOTS of more info - I just picked up a scanner 8-) and wanted to save my Kim docs anyway 8-) tho don't expect them this year! BC From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 13 21:30:38 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Sick PDP-8/f: Need Diode Info! In-Reply-To: <199711121908.LAA11088@fraser> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Nov 12, 97 11:08:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 833 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971114/5473cda6/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Nov 13 21:09:18 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Bogus CD drive Message-ID: <971113220918_-2110956896@mrin45.mail.aol.com> well, a cd disk cleaning kit only costs <$10. I myself dont even know how one would clean a cd drive if it was taken apart as the disk cleaner would do everything. david In a message dated 11/13/97 10:05:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, engine@chac.org writes: << My primary computer has a Toshiba 3401 (couple-years-old) caddy-type SCSI CD drive in it. This is from back when they were expensive and built like tanks. It is now generally choking on software CD's and skipping horribly on audio CD's. My Wintel guru says that it is literally not worth trying to clean the thing, that the cost of a cleaning will exceed the cost of a new 8X or 10X SCSI CD drive, and the bother of going inside the case, removing, and re-installing will be the same. I hate to pitch this drive, it's worked so well; is there anything non-invasive I can try before I give up on it? thanks much, __________________________________________ Kip Crosby >> From william at ans.net Thu Nov 13 21:17:30 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Probably not counting... DECserver 200/MC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I just got a DECserver 200/MC to act as a termserver for my 11/34 when it > comes back up... ANyone know how to get setup on here? > This may not count as a computer, but I do need help... OK, so I am not familiar with the unit, but why would it not count as a "computer"? Is it not yet ten years old (for this list)? William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Thu Nov 13 21:21:25 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: 6800 In-Reply-To: <4D0CD0BF5450@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: > their pilot runs of parts (usually distributed as samples) with an > 'XC' prefix! I once had an XC6800 in one of my ss-50's! It was in > what I can only describe as a 'clay' (okay, some wierd ceramic > material) package. Never saw anything like it before or since. Motorola has always been a bit loose about letting "XC" labeled parts go out to production (I have seen Macs with XC68020s, and some production XC88000 stuff). I too have some XC labeled 6800 stuff, and yes, it is in weird packages - it almost looks like the ceramic did not form correctly! I think Motorola has another prefix for things that stay in the labs (like preproduction prototypes), but I can not remember what it is. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Nov 13 16:45:56 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Bogus CD drive In-Reply-To: <971113220918_-2110956896@mrin45.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199711140341.WAA10170@mail.cgocable.net> > well, a cd disk cleaning kit only costs <$10. I myself dont even know how one > would clean a cd drive if it was taken apart as the disk cleaner would do > everything. > > david David, that is market trick played on you...bad! Those is just gimmicky thingy. Best thing is manual cleaning and general inspection. Sorry, open up 'em to access that wobby len for cleaning. > In a message dated 11/13/97 10:05:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, > engine@chac.org writes: > > << My primary computer has a Toshiba 3401 (couple-years-old) caddy-type SCSI > CD drive in it. This is from back when they were expensive and built like > tanks. It is now generally choking on software CD's and skipping horribly > on audio CD's. My Wintel guru says that it is literally not worth trying > to clean the thing, that the cost of a cleaning will exceed the cost of a > new 8X or 10X SCSI CD drive, and the bother of going inside the case, > removing, and re-installing will be the same. I hate to pitch this drive, > it's worked so well; is there anything non-invasive I can try before I give > up on it? > > thanks much, > > __________________________________________ > Kip Crosby >> Kip, This drive (sorry!) used cheap brushed PM spindle motor that you see in most 4x and below. Between two first try to open it up and use swab bud and 99% alcohol (not rubbing alcohol which has oils and such that leaves film on surfaces) to GENTLY clean that wobbly LEN to see if that will solve it. No go? Suspect motor. Replacement is not that hard if you can find one that fits and use 3v low current type also it used RF resistors internally on the motor armture itself. If someone is really GOOD with their hands like watch repair (I'm one of them as well), file the crimps off and take motor apart, carefully of those flat brushes! Then clean the commuter with alcohol followed by sharpened toothpick between gaps to clean out those shorts. Yes! That "grows" shorts over time when using the drive. use pieces of toothpicks to gently spread the brushes apart via those access holes and can jam the toothpicks to keep it there while putting the lid back on. Lightly crimp with a cutter to keep the lid on. That also affects all cd audio players that uses that type of PM motors. I was surprised that Toshiba used brushed motors where many thought including me, Mitsumi was bad but I had chance to repair several 1x, 2x types and they used ball bearing brushless spindle motors. Not sure on newer 4x and up Mitsumis. And they use effective dust barrier design that cd plastic housing is sealed by 5 screws and foam to the top cover metal sheet. I'm using a Mitsumi mouse and really beats the M$ mouse ver2.01 claptrap. Secondly, I really dislike Toshiba drives until things changes for the better. Sometimes by their designs of chipsets internally usually BLOW up by bunches even cooked those len field coils! Maybe it was the design of the power input or the design of the SCSI chipset that really dislikes backward connection? Had seen more than 3 of them. All cdrom drives that likes to be least used to last UNLESS that dumb spindle motor is made of top quality ball bearing and brushless type. Because of this fact some did not know if their cd's are stopped spinning after no reading for a while. I know of few brands that simply kept cd's spinning all the times wearing or burning out those sleeved, brushed PM motors. Also final note, some inexpensive cd drives vibrates too much and I'm bit upset that comsumers wants more than 8x because this is about the limit that is useful performance... Jason D. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Nov 13 22:39:15 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Anyone have a used copy of this book? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971113203638.0a279404@ricochet.net> At 07:34 PM 11/11/97 -0800, you wrote: >Try http://www.powells.com next to Amazon they're about the biggest >bookstore in the world. Plus they've the advantage of actually being open >to the public. They have a really awsome Technical bookstore. Powells is >a must see if you're ever in the Portland Oregon area, it's almost a >tourist attraction! However, I've no idea if they've got the book you Actually, Powell's *is* a tourist attraction. At least, we make a point of stopping there whenever we're in town. The main store is a full city block. If you're in the area, you definitely have to check it out. I don't know if they've got their full selection on-line; if not you can always call them and ask someone to check, I suppose. They do carry various Land Rover manuals and books too. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Nov 13 22:39:18 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Anyone have a used copy of this book? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971113203641.0a2740cc@ricochet.net> >Try http://www.powells.com next to Amazon they're about the biggest Whups. Got confused a bit in my last reply. This isn't the Land Rover list. So ignore the (true, but) irrelevant comment about Land Rover manuals. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Nov 13 22:39:31 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Info On PIMs wanted. Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971113203653.4cc7d0cc@ricochet.net> At 08:11 PM 11/12/97 +0000, you wrote: >OK, so they weren't called that early on. But still, that's what >they're called now. What I really want is something small, but >powerful. (This classic is going to get USED) I have two schedule >programs; MS Schedule+ and a program called Sidekick 2.0, for DOS, made >in the early 90's. Compatibility would help. I also want something >that's not to hard to find, and I can get for less than a Palm Pilot. (A >lot less, if possible.) Your choices include: Amstrad PDA-600 (maybe DOS?) Atari Portfolio (DOS) Poquet PC (DOS) GridPad (DOS, not very small) HP handhelds Dauphin DTR-1 (DOS/Windows) Maybe a couple of others None of those are cheap. Portfolios and Poquets seem to sell for well over $100. Same for the gridpad. I dunno about the various HP handhelds, but I suspect they're expensive too. I got (not yet -- it's on its way) my Amstrad PDA-600 for $60. Dauphins are more than a Pilot. Of the lot, the HP's are probably the most powerful. Another option would be an early Newton or one of the machines that came out at the same time (like the Zoomer). --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Thu Nov 13 22:39:49 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: GridPad 1910 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971113203712.4eefbcce@ricochet.net> I recently got a GridPad model 1910, and I have a few questions... Does anyone know of a source for batteries? (Mine doesn't have one) Is there a version of basic specifically for the gridpad, or does anyone know how to get input from the screen with a general PC Basic? Does it require any special type of keyboard? Anyone have any documentation for it, especially for the docking station? connector on the bottom? Anyone have or know of software for it? This thing is pretty rugged, and I'm thinking it would be great to mount in my Land Rover to use for navigation (which means finding a DOS-based nav program that can work with a GPS.) Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 14 23:26:53 1997 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Anyone have a used copy of this book? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971113203638.0a279404@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 07:34 PM 11/11/97 -0800, you wrote: > >Try http://www.powells.com next to Amazon they're about the biggest > >bookstore in the world. Plus they've the advantage of actually being open > >to the public. They have a really awsome Technical bookstore. Powells is > >a must see if you're ever in the Portland Oregon area, it's almost a > >tourist attraction! However, I've no idea if they've got the book you > > Actually, Powell's *is* a tourist attraction. At least, we make a point of > stopping there whenever we're in town. The main store is a full city block. > If you're in the area, you definitely have to check it out. > > I don't know if they've got their full selection on-line; if not you can > always call them and ask someone to check, I suppose. They do carry various > Land Rover manuals and books too. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ And if you need any muffler or brake work, there is a Midas shop just across the street. They pulled my chestnuts out of the fire about a year and a half ago! - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Nov 13 23:43:59 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Probably not counting... DECserver 200/MC In-Reply-To: William Donzelli's message of Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:17:30 -0500 (EST) References: Message-ID: <199711140543.VAA08666@daemonweed.reanimators.org> William Donzelli wrote (after Daniel Seagraves): > > I just got a DECserver 200/MC to act as a termserver for my 11/34 when it > > comes back up... ANyone know how to get setup on here? > > This may not count as a computer, but I do need help... > > OK, so I am not familiar with the unit, but why would it not count as a > "computer"? Is it not yet ten years old (for this list)? If not it's close. I was responsible for one or two in 1988 or so, and we got it from somewhere else so it must have been around for a little while before then. It's a terminal server. I never took a screwdriver to one but it clearly had some smarts inside. To the best of my knowledge it will not do TCP/IP, but my knowledge is a bit dated. Maybe DEC found a way to cram it in there but I think they only had TCP/IP support in later models of terminal server. On powerup it has about enough code in it to download the code that makes it useful over Ethernet using DEC MOP. Supposing it finds a willing MOP server with the appropriate loadable image it will then be able to do DEC LAT over Ethernet. So you could hook terminals or modems up with it and have them talk to a LAT host, or you could hook up a printer and establish a LAT print queue on a VMS host, or you could hook its serial ports up to some other computer's serial ports and set it up as a LAT server that other LAT users could connect to. Is it useful/usable with -11s? I don't know, I used it with VAXen, but that's been eight or nine years ago and I don't really remember them that well. -Frank McConnell From marvin at rain.org Fri Nov 14 01:28:52 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Bogus CD drive References: <3.0.32.19971113132353.00f74c70@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <346BFDB3.919D39E8@rain.org> Kip Crosby wrote: > My primary computer has a Toshiba 3401 (couple-years-old) caddy-type SCSI > CD drive in it. This is from back when they were expensive and built like > > tanks. It is now generally choking on software CD's and skipping horribly > > on audio CD's. My Wintel guru says that it is literally not worth trying > to clean the thing, that the cost of a cleaning will exceed the cost of a > new 8X or 10X SCSI CD drive, and the bother of going inside the case, > removing, and re-installing will be the same. I hate to pitch this drive, > > it's worked so well; is there anything non-invasive I can try before I > give > up on it? My feeling is that merely cleaning the unit will not help ( the sensor is fairly small, approx3/16", and I *think* it can be reached with a Q-Tip.) My experience tends to make me think the problem is more along the lines of either the laser diode output decreasing, or the gain of the electronics is decreasing with age. I had one for quite a while, and it was also a very reliable drive. One day, it started making funny noises, so I replaced it. Months later, I tried to take it apart and found the screws breaking off or rounding off where the phillips tip goes. I ended up drilling the heads off, getting the unit apart, and finding the noise was because of a faulty cassette leaving the metal cap attached to the magnet inside the drive. I found the screws were loktighted in place, and heat was required to soften the Lok-Tite enough to take the screws out. A bit of carelessness later, one of the plastic gears melted because of the heat, and the drive was rendered mechanically bad, and I *think* I tossed it. From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Nov 14 07:19:59 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: <199711131705.JAA16751@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <346C4FFE.9D0CA9A8@batelco.com.bh> Well, it won't help you now, but a company called JTS Corporation has the best HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was LOUD!!! It also had a fairly good HDD Test Score: 2.6 by the Norton Utilities benchmarks. I ran the test with my NEW 2.0 GB JTS, which got a 4.0!!! Also, it's about $20-$40 cheaper than the equivelent Caviar. The best part: It has a cover with rubber on the outside. I had it IN THE OPEN for about 3 weeks, and it still worked just fine. The cover protects it from static electrictity form jerks like me, and from shock, stuff like that. PG Manney wrote: > I dunno...I dropped one off my desk (2 1/2 ft), and it survived fine. > > I dropped a 1.2 GB HDD (WD, I think) BRAND NEW off my desk onto a carpet, > and it died (couldn't have been a ST-157, no-o-o-o.) Depends on how it > bounces, I guess. > > Anyone wanna try this with a 9 gig, in the interests of science? > > >Now.... just for fun, try to get a modern PC, drop it on your toe (A > >sacrifice for science) and then watch it break into DOZENS of piece. Chip > >out of socket, RAM out of socket, motherboard out of case, power supply out > >of case, HDD crashed, disk drive not in a working condition, CD-ROM drive's > >laser swears that there's no disk in. They don't make 'em like they used > >to!!! > > > >---------- > >From: Jeff Beoletto > >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > >Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue Squad > >Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 6:28 PM > > > > > > > >On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Hotze wrote: > >> > >> > At 23:18 11/7/97 +0000, you wrote: > >> > >I am conviced that a lot of people (probably not on this list) > >wouldn't > >> > >know a well-designed or well-built computer if it was dropped on > >them... > >> > > >> > Naturally not, they'd be too busy limping around howling. > >> > > >> > >> I DID THAT! I DID THAT! I successfully managed to crush Jeff Beoletto's > >> (One of my friends) toes with > >> a PDP-11/44. We were trying to move it sideways. BTW, his foot healed > >up > >> quite well. And he wasn't limping around, he was curled up in a little > >> ball on the floor, cussing a blue streak :) A week ago we were moving > >the > >> RA81, and I almost did it again... > >> > >> > >> > > Seeing how it was me that Dan managed to drop it I can agree to > >the limping, and ironically enough it's the same foot that I had broken 3 > >times in the month before he crushed it. And just yesterday hauling a pc > >down to our storagge office on the 5th floor I tripped and fell down the > >steps and have just re-broken that very same ankle. Computers are > >hazerdous to your health. =+) > > > > > > > > From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 07:48:06 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Help with Mac Plus Message-ID: <199711141418.GAA15764@mx5.u.washington.edu> Can anyone with Macintosh experience help me, please? 1) How do I check the amount of memory installed without ripping open the beast? 2) The machine was running some programs (Chess, for example) and suddenly refuses to do so, claiming, "xxx K needed to run this program. You have 512 K). Customer doesn't know how much was installed. Might this be a configuration problem, or has it lost contact with half its RAM? (and it hasn't even hit 40 years yet!) Thanks, manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 07:56:23 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference Message-ID: <199711141418.GAA23420@mx2.u.washington.edu> >P.S., I stumbled across a site that might offer insight into this question. >It's at and offers a listing of >computers by microprocessor (as well as other ways). Only problem is it's >in french. 8^) I speak French, mut I'm not an expert on computerese French...unfortunately, I'm snowed under at my business, so I don't have time to translate the whole document. I can research and/or translate portions for anyone who wants, tho'. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 08:14:43 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <199711141422.GAA05143@mx4.u.washington.edu> >I've recently heard of someone who told me about an 8080 laptop from >someone who has been into computers longer than I have. He said that >there was a laptop... in the 1970's, that was smaller than the origional >Compaq. It was soupossed to only have a little RAM, and it was used by >journalists, who would connect with a modem an upload the files. Is >this true? If so, what on earth ever happened to these? (Does this >sound like something else... H/PC come to mind? Journalists around here used the Radio Schlock thingie (Tandy 100?) Don't know the processor, tho'. From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 08:23:32 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Sorry, I need to get this to PG Manney, there Message-ID: <199711141427.GAA16890@mx3.u.washington.edu> >> Whoops! of course...and didn't they make a calculator or two? > >Yes, they made quite a few calculator models. I've only seen one myself. >My father used it in his engineering work many years ago. I now have it, >and although it is functional, a friend that I lent it to smashed the case >up pretty badly by accidentally hurtling it against a cement floor. > >It's a PR-100 programmable scientific calculator. It has one of those >very intense orange displays (I forget what the technology is). > >My father says that the engineering firm he worked for used to have tons >of Commodore equipment around. Mostly mechanical adding machines and >office furniture. :) > >I've been running into far more Commodore furniture recently than >Commodore computers. I usta have a Sinclair programmable calculator that ran on a 9V battery, thus requiring a large bulge in the case that would tilt the calculator away from the user when set down. Magnificently intelligent design. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 08:29:46 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <199711141436.GAA24812@mx2.u.washington.edu> >OK. By the way, speaking of "sub-laptops", does anyone know what kind of models >might be good for me? I just pretty much want to be able to take notes; etc. >Windows CE is cheap enough for me, but they're keyboards aren't for REAL people. >Possibly an Apple Newton? Or are there any classics that have a keyboard large >enough to type on(not two-finger typing.) ? Where can I get one of these Radio >Shack 100's? > Radio Schlock 100's had the loveliest keyboards I've ever seen. Don't think the display was backlit, tho'. I see 286 and 8088 laptops (floppy only) going for cheap $$ at hamfests. From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 08:45:31 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives Message-ID: <199711141448.GAA18033@mx5.u.washington.edu> >Since some of the software for my "old" (first generation PC) computers >is on 5 1/4" disks of dubious condition, I would like to make copies >onto new disks. Since HD disks are still readily available and cheap, I >thought this would be an ideal way to do so. Try asking for used DSDD disks...I have boxes of 'em that I get free. 'Course, you might get a dirty one... > >I also seem to have fried the 5 1/4" HD drive in my PC while sorting >through some old software. It seems a couple of disks had some dirt on >them which caused horrible screeching sounds when the disk was spinning, >and also deposited a very hard black coating on the heads. The only way >I could remove the deposits was to scratch it off with my fingernails >(alcohol would not touch it). However, I must have bumped the heads out >of alignment, because the drive won't read disks any longer. > >My question is: can I plug a Double Density drive into the same >connector in my modern PC and use it for my old disks? I know I will >have to change my BIOS setting, but is there anything else I need to >consider? No. Just specify it as a 5 1/4", 360K. You might want to test the drive you install (Norton, for example), to make sure it does a good job. For greatest archive longevity, I'm told that tape (pick something common, such as QIC-80) *if recorded on a new tape and then not read often* will outlast anything -- even CD-ROM's. manney@nwohio.com From adam at merlin.net.au Fri Nov 14 08:53:43 1997 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Help with Mac Plus Message-ID: Not knowing what system you are running, I may not be able to help. But... >1) How do I check the amount of memory installed without ripping open the >beast? Under the apple symbol in the top left of the menu bar is an "about this macintosh" option - that should give you memory, memory usage, and the version of the OS. This is under system 7.1, but it should be on most (if not all) the versions of the OS. >2) The machine was running some programs (Chess, for example) and suddenly >refuses to do so, claiming, "xxx K needed to run this program. You have 512 >K). Customer doesn't know how much was installed. Might this be a >configuration problem, or has it lost contact with half its RAM? (and it >hasn't even hit 40 years yet!) I haven't encountered that problem yet. The Mac plus should have more than 512k as standard. (mine has 2 meg, but that was expanded). Anyway, when you highlight a program, but don't start it, you can go to the file menu and look under the get info option. That will tell you, at the bottom, what the suggested memory size is, and what the minimum and prefered sizes are. Changing these may solve your problem, and if not I can only assume that it is, indeed, hardware related. I don't think there are any software settings for memory, but I imagine there are the usual switches on the motherboard - unfortunatly I don't have that much info. Hope that helps, Adam. From william at ans.net Fri Nov 14 09:01:59 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives In-Reply-To: <199711141448.GAA18033@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > For greatest archive longevity, I'm told that tape (pick something common, > such as QIC-80) *if recorded on a new tape and then not read often* will > outlast anything -- even CD-ROM's. I would really doubt this. The oxide coating on just about any tape, digital or analog, flakes off even if never used. As for CD-ROMs, I would say that the stamped ones (normal ones) will probably last for a very long time - the plastic and aluminum have so far proved to be stable, and the data is recorded with a massive amount of error correcting code. Writable CD-ROMs, however, I am a bit skeptical about, but my gut feeling says that they will last at least ten years. The best solution (other than mylar punched tape) is probably the older WORM drives (not MOs!), as they actually punch holes in the inner layers of the disk. The problem with them is the "standard" they follow (not much!). William Donzelli william@ans.net From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 09:02:05 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Thought everyone would like a chuckle Message-ID: <199711141507.HAA08661@mx4.u.washington.edu> >Microsoft to Buy The U.S Government >REDMOND, Wash. - Oct. 21, 1997 -- In direct response to accusations >made by the Department of Justice, the Microsoft Corp. announced today >that will be acquiring the federal government of the United States of >America for an undisclosed sum. "It's actually a logical extension of >our planned growth", said Microsoft chairman Bill Gates, "It really is >going to be a positive arrangement for everyone". >Microsoft representatives held a briefing in the oval office of the >White House with U.S. President Bill Clinton, and assured members of >the press that changes will be "minimal". The United States will be >managed as a wholly owned division of Microsoft. An initial public >offering is planned for July of next year, and the federal government >is expected to be profitable by "Q4 1999 at latest", according to >Microsoft president Steve Ballmer. >In a related announcement, Bill Clinton stated that he had "willingly >and enthusiastically" accepted a position as a vice president with >Microsoft, and will continue to manage the United States government, >reporting directly to Bill Gates. >When asked how it felt to give up the mantle of executive authority to >Gates, Clinton smiled and referred to it as "a relief". He went on to >say that Gates has a "proven track record", and that U.S. citizens >should offer Gates their "full support and confidence". Clinton will >reportedly be earning several times the $200,000 annually he has >earned as U.S. president, in his new role at Microsoft. >Gates dismissed a suggestion that the U.S. Capitol be moved to Redmond >as "silly", though did say that he would make executive decisions for >the U.S. government from his existing office at Microsoft >headquarters. Gates went on to say that the House and Senate would "of >course" be abolished. "Microsoft isn't a democracy", he observed, >"and look how well we're doing". >When asked if the rumored attendant acquisition of Canada was >proceeding, Gates said, "We don't deny that discussions are taking >place".Microsoft representatives closed the conference by stating that >United States citizens will be able to expect lower taxes, increases >in government services and discounts on all Microsoft products. >About Microsoft: Founded in 1975, Microsoft (NASDAQ "MSFT") is the >worldwide leader in software for personal computers, and democratic >government. The company offers a wide range of products and services >for public, business and personal use, each designed with the mission >of making it easier and more enjoyable for people to take advantage of >the full power of personal computing and free society every day. >About the United States: >Founded in 1789, the United States of America is the most successful >nation in the history of the world, and has been a beacon of democracy >and opportunity for over 200 years. Headquartered in Washington, D.C., >the United States is a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft >Corporation. From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 09:05:51 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Older computers FS Message-ID: <199711141510.HAA20338@mx3.u.washington.edu> Our local NASA is selling off older PC and other stuff. I'm local, if anyone wants anything. Stuff is at http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/Logistics/sales.htm on the world's slowest server. manney@nwohio.com From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 09:38:56 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <199711141541.HAA00669@mx2.u.washington.edu> >Hi ya. I have a Victor 9000 computer. Is this a DOS machine or a CP/M >machine? I cannot get it to boot from a disk (MS-DOS 3.2) and I haven't >found anymore information on it. Anything you can tell me abut it will >be great. Thanks IIRC, it would run either. A local doctor has a Victor in his basement (anyone want it?) manney@nwohio.com From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Nov 14 09:44:43 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: System/34 Message-ID: <9710148795.AA879551306@compsci.powertech.co.uk> >> > This machine is in Boston, MA, USA. It also has three very ugly terminals - >> > anyone know what kind? Yes, I know exactly what kind, but I can't remember the IBM number (5250? Something like that, anyway). You daisy-chain up to eight of each port on the Sys/34 using IBM twinax cable. > Anyway, if the Boston System/34 is available, perhaps the RCS/RI people > might want it. Allison has expressed an interest... For your information, it is about 4 feet tall, two or three feet wide, and at least six feet long, the actual length depending on what options are installed. It is very heavy (I don't know how heavy) but some dismantling should be possible. I can't now remember who asked, but whoever you are, your Toyota should have no difficulty carrying the thing if you can get it into the back. Warning: If you need people to help you lift bits into the back of your truck, you will _definitely_ need help lifting it off again when you get home. > > I have one available here, in Peoria, IL... > > Anyone want it? I can't store it... > > It has all sortsa 8" floppies with it... > > It might not be a bad idea to grab the floppies, even if you can not > find a taker for the hardware. Good point. Well said, William. Whoever gets the Boston machine will want [copies of] the Peoria floppies, I imagine. I may well be visiting the eastern US in the next few weeks but I absolutely _refuse_ to take a system/34 home with me! In the summer, I got sent to Jakarta (Indonesia) and I bought a large gong. You wouldn't believe how expensive excess baggage costs to bring home! (I had 76kg total baggage on that flight...) On the other hand, I might be able to shuttle a _FEW_ _SMALL_ items in each direction. Suggestions?? Philip. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Nov 14 09:52:43 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Finds & Questions Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971114075001.3d576444@ricochet.net> At 04:45 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Two are in and out to the 9114, one is power (I'm pretty sure) but I'm not >>sure about the last. Perhaps input for the barcode wand? > >What does the mystery connector look like? It's kinda roundish wiht (I think -- I'm on bart, it's at home) 5 holes for pins -- made me think of the old Hayes modem power supply connectors. The one that I'm pretty sure is the power is two adjoining square holes with 1 pin-hole in each. The same connector is on the disk drive. Someone said these take a standard HP 8v ps... Anyone know where to get one? Thanks in advance! The other thing I noticed about this (and I found something on the web that seemed to agree with this) is that to the right of the space bar it appears there's a slot for a magstripe card. It's a little wider than the strip on a credit card. Pretty neat. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Nov 14 09:52:48 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Bogus CD drive Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971114075005.3d577962@ricochet.net> At 01:24 PM 11/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >My primary computer has a Toshiba 3401 (couple-years-old) caddy-type SCSI >CD drive in it. This is from back when they were expensive and built like >tanks. It is now generally choking on software CD's and skipping horribly Run down to Tower Records and pick up a CD Lens Cleaner. Shouldn't be more than $10-15 and it just might do the trick. (Not a bad thing to have in any case.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 09:40:39 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <199711141552.HAA12914@mx4.u.washington.edu> I can supply original DOS disks for 3.31 manney@nwohio.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: Manney Date: Thursday, November 13, 1997 9:56 AM Subject: Re: Victor 9000 >To All: > >Know where I might be able to obtain MS-DOS 3.2, 3.3, or 4.0 on a 5.25" >disks? This would be for an older machine--my only other alternative is to >remove a 5.25" drive and plug it into my "newer" HP, download DOS and CP/M >from the internet, and save it to this drive. > >Anybody else had to do something similar to get a boot disk for their older >computer? Any experiences would be extremely helpful. > >Sam > From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 14 09:43:29 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Bogus CD drive Message-ID: <199711141557.HAA24642@mx3.u.washington.edu> >Disclaimer: This is not a ten-year-old topic and you are free to ignore the >message as you see fit. I write, however, in full confidence that someone >reading this can answer the question. > >My primary computer has a Toshiba 3401 (couple-years-old) caddy-type SCSI >CD drive in it. This is from back when they were expensive and built like >tanks. It is now generally choking on software CD's and skipping horribly >on audio CD's. My Wintel guru says that it is literally not worth trying >to clean the thing, that the cost of a cleaning will exceed the cost of a >new 8X or 10X SCSI CD drive, and the bother of going inside the case, >removing, and re-installing will be the same. I hate to pitch this drive, >it's worked so well; is there anything non-invasive I can try before I give >up on it? Have you tried a cleaning CD? You can get them for $8 or so. From william at ans.net Fri Nov 14 10:26:45 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Older computers FS In-Reply-To: <199711141510.HAA20338@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > Our local NASA is selling off older PC and other stuff. I'm local, if anyone > wants anything. I want the Stardent! And the Intel iPSC860! And the IBM mainframe! And the Apollos! And the DEC stuff! > http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/Logistics/sales.htm It turns out this is close to a place I work at about every month. This could get dangerous. William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 14 10:54:50 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Caution! In-Reply-To: <199711140046.TAA76256@r02n02.cac.psu.edu> from "Les Berry" at Nov 13, 97 07:44:42 pm Message-ID: <9711141654.AA17394@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 522 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971114/e402119a/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Nov 14 11:12:10 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: JTS (was: Classic Computer Rescue Squad) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971114090927.391fcbc6@ricochet.net> At 01:19 PM 11/14/97 +0000, you wrote: >Well, it won't help you now, but a company called JTS Corporation has the best >HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was For a little classic content, JTS is the company that acquired the remnants of Atari Corp. Haven't done anything with it, that I know of, but in the future...? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Nov 14 11:12:17 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: PC/AT reference Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971114090935.391f3b56@ricochet.net> At 08:56 AM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote: > I speak French, mut I'm not an expert on computerese >French...unfortunately, I'm snowed under at my business, so I don't have I took french in high school & college... which means I can swear at you, ask you out, and say "Je deteste des ordinateurs". (but I can say that last bit in several languages.) 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Nov 14 11:12:36 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Older computers FS In-Reply-To: <199711141510.HAA20338@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, PG Manney wrote: > Our local NASA is selling off older PC and other stuff. I'm local, if anyone > wants anything. > > Stuff is at > > http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/Logistics/sales.htm Lots of stuff I'd like to see preserved, however if I read the details on the site correctly the bidding closed yesterday (13-Nov.) DRAT! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 14 11:27:13 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" Message-ID: <199711141727.AA08851@world.std.com> <>journalists, who would connect with a modem an upload the files. Is <>this true? If so, what on earth ever happened to these? (Does this <>sound like something else... H/PC come to mind? < <> Anyway, if the Boston System/34 is available, perhaps the RCS/RI people <> might want it. < <>My primary computer has a Toshiba 3401 (couple-years-old) caddy-type SCSI <>CD drive in it. This is from back when they were expensive and built lik <>tanks. It is now generally choking on software CD's and skipping horribl < In a message dated 97-11-14 13:04:53 EST, you write: << I can supply original DOS disks for 3.31 >> I would most certainly appreciate it. The computer these would be used on is actually a Visual Technologies Commuter--a colleague noted that although this unit runs intel 8086, 8088, 80286, it can boot into DOS 6.22. I have yet to find out if this is true or not; however, what can we work out so that I may get those disks? Thanks Sam Uncler From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 14 14:06:50 1997 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:35 2005 Subject: JTS (was: Classic Computer Rescue Squad) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971114090927.391fcbc6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 01:19 PM 11/14/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Well, it won't help you now, but a company called JTS Corporation has the best > >HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was > > For a little classic content, JTS is the company that acquired the remnants > of Atari Corp. Haven't done anything with it, that I know of, but in the > future...? > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ For a little more 'classic content', the "JT" in JTS is for Jugi Tandon of oldtime floppy disk drive fame and later hard disk and PC clones. The hard disk rights were sold to Western Digital at the time that they bailed out of the card making business. Small world, ain't it? - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 14 16:09:33 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Probably not counting... DECserver 200/MC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > OK, so I am not familiar with the unit, but why would it not count as a > "computer"? Is it not yet ten years old (for this list)? > It's an 8 port terminal server. I think it's 10 years old. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 14 16:29:52 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Caution! In-Reply-To: <9711141654.AA17394@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > To complicate matters, muons used to be called "mu mesons", but it > turned out that muons weren't mesons after all - they're leptons. > Doesn't matter much, because as a practical matter we make muons too. > (Pion decay is the common method.) > I shouldn't have asked... From Zeus334 at aol.com Fri Nov 14 17:12:37 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: System/34 Message-ID: <971114181237_-1878110856@mrin47> In a message dated 97-11-14 14:43:02 EST, you write: << Subj: Re: Re[2]: System/34 Date: 97-11-14 14:43:02 EST From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu (Discussion re-collecting of classic computers) <> Anyway, if the Boston System/34 is available, perhaps the RCS/RI people <> might want it. < > I don't actually own the thing, and never offered it per se. I could probably get the administration to let go of it, esp. if there' s money involved. I'll ask around. The terminals are 3 5250's -- I found the manual for one of them. As soon as I get a definite response, I'll post. Tell me how much you would pay. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 14 17:06:35 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: MV3100 floppy drive Message-ID: I have a MicroVAX 3100 I'm putting a floppy in. Where does it attach? YOu can see where it was removed, and there's no option card slots... Where do I put the floppy in? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 14 17:32:31 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: MV3100 floppy drive In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 14, 97 05:06:35 pm Message-ID: <9711142332.AA09716@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 951 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971114/2f988a9e/attachment.ksh From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 14 17:34:02 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: JTS (was: Classic Computer Rescue Squad) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <346cdf78.107147259@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:06:50 -0800 (PST), you wrote: % %For a little more 'classic content', the "JT" in JTS is for Jugi Tandon %of oldtime floppy disk drive fame and later hard disk and PC clones. The %hard disk rights were sold to Western Digital at the time that they %bailed out of the card making business. Small world, ain't it? And for even more 'classic content', Tandon was the company that manufactured the diskette drives (entire unit including plastics) for the Atari 800XL. Ben From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 14 18:10:36 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Finds & Questions In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971114075001.3d576444@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Nov 14, 97 09:52:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1870 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971115/d096377c/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 14 17:44:08 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: MV3100 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <9711142332.AA09716@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > 1. No disk controller at all. It had a drive at one time, I doubt this... > 2. A ST-506 controller that also takes a straight 34-pin floppy cable. > (i.e. it has a floppy disk controller on the disk controller) > > 3. A single-bus SCSI controller that also takes a straight 34-pin floppy cable. > (i.e. it has a floppy disk controller on the disk controller) > > 4. A dual-bus SCSI controller that does not take a straight 34-pin > floppy controller. This used "SCSI floppy" drives, i.e. plain > floppy drives with SCSI electronics bolted onto them. > > The disk controller, if any , lives on the "upper deck" that drives > are bolted onto. If you have a disk controller, what sort of connectors > does it have? There's one large connector to the motherboard, 2 scsi plugs, and what looks like a SCSI-2 plug. Guess I had a scsi floppy. Darn. > > Tim. > From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 14 17:48:11 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: What's this? Message-ID: I bought a nice piece of luggage today, it has a few DEC disks and the CR04 diag cards (Card reader for PDP). But what are the disks? It's about 12-18" across, says decpack, 2200 BPI-12 on it. There's 3, 2 for XXDP+, one scratch. Are these RL02 packs? It's a single platter affair. From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Nov 14 18:21:14 1997 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Powells Bookstore (was: Anyone have a copy of this book) & VIC Kernel Message-ID: <0a0f93223000fb7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Thanks for the suggestions re: Powell's Bookstore. They had the book for $60, a $23 savings over Amazon. Granted, it is a used copy, but if my used books are a guide, I should get a quality book. Highly recommended store for tech books. I'd like to visit it someday. Also, for those interested, I finished my VIC-20 Kernel documentation project. Right now, I have completely recompilable source code for the Commodore VIC-20 kernel ROM. It took me over 2 years, part time, but it works. Anyone who is interested in finding out more, send me a private e-mail. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin! Charter Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Networking From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Fri Nov 14 13:36:23 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <346C4FFE.9D0CA9A8@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <199711150041.TAA25550@smtp.interlog.com> On 14 Nov 97 at 13:19, HOTZE wrote: > Well, it won't help you now, but a company called JTS Corporation has the best > HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was > LOUD!!! It also had a fairly good HDD Test Score: 2.6 by the Norton Utilities > benchmarks. I ran the test with my NEW 2.0 GB JTS, which got a 4.0!!! Also, > it's about $20-$40 cheaper than the equivelent Caviar. The best part: It has a > cover with rubber on the outside. I had it IN THE OPEN for about 3 weeks, and > it still worked just fine. The cover protects it from static electrictity form > jerks like me, and from shock, stuff like that. > Unfortunately it's major shareholder is the Trammiels and after what they did to Atari I wouldn't buy a can opener from them. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 14 18:46:32 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: What's this? In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 14, 97 05:48:11 pm Message-ID: <9711150046.AA06159@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 313 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971114/f07d4654/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Nov 14 19:11:31 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <971114201129_699849198@mrin84.mail.aol.com> off topic, but speaking of JTS, egghead is/was selling JTS 1gig drives for $99. i bought one, and works great! quiet, and has a 3 year warranty. all i got was the drive in a box, but then again, that's all i wanted. david In a message dated 97-11-14 05:22:36 EST, mr hotze put forth: > Well, it won't help you now, but a company called JTS Corporation has the best > HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was > LOUD!!! It also had a fairly good HDD Test Score: 2.6 by the Norton > Utilities > benchmarks. I ran the test with my NEW 2.0 GB JTS, which got a 4.0!!! Also, > > it's about $20-$40 cheaper than the equivelent Caviar. The best part: It > has a > cover with rubber on the outside. I had it IN THE OPEN for about 3 weeks, > and > it still worked just fine. The cover protects it from static electrictity > form > jerks like me, and from shock, stuff like that. From william at ans.net Fri Nov 14 19:15:02 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Probably not counting... DECserver 200/MC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > OK, so I am not familiar with the unit, but why would it not count as a > > "computer"? Is it not yet ten years old (for this list)? > > > > It's an 8 port terminal server. I think it's 10 years old. Well, then I would think it would be a "classic", even though it is just a terminal server. Even these things, often tucked away in a rack and not seen, are important. Routers, switches, CSUs, and so on all deserve a spot in our collections. I am waiting to find a nice "classic" Cisco AGS (OK, I would settle for an IGS) to play with! William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Nov 14 19:19:05 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <971114201129_699849198@mrin84.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: > > HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was > > LOUD!!! Hey! What is wrong with loud disk drives! The more noise the create, the more fun they are... William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 14 19:29:52 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <346C4FFE.9D0CA9A8@batelco.com.bh> from "HOTZE" at Nov 14, 97 01:19:59 pm Message-ID: <9711150129.AA11214@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 304 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971114/33f3e2c2/attachment.ksh From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Nov 14 19:37:31 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Help with Mac Plus Message-ID: <971114203731_2004642045@mrin52.mail.aol.com> as specified before, if the "about this mac" doesnt show it, you may have to remove the case and look at the simms. plus models came with 1 meg standard in 4 256k simms. other mem configurations are 2 1meg simms and 2 256k ones for 2.5 meg and 4 1meg simms for a total of 4 which is what my platinum mac plus has. i've noticed two mac plus designs; one in the apple //e beige colour and the other in corporate gray. i presume they are identical though. In a message dated 97-11-14 10:49:08 EST, PG Manney put forth: > Can anyone with Macintosh experience help me, please? > > 1) How do I check the amount of memory installed without ripping open the > beast? > > 2) The machine was running some programs (Chess, for example) and suddenly > refuses to do so, claiming, "xxx K needed to run this program. You have 512 > K). Customer doesn't know how much was installed. Might this be a > configuration problem, or has it lost contact with half its RAM? (and it > hasn't even hit 40 years yet!) > > Thanks, > manney@nwohio.com > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Nov 14 15:04:38 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: References: <971114201129_699849198@mrin84.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199711150200.VAA21775@mail.cgocable.net> > > > HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was > > > LOUD!!! > > Hey! What is wrong with loud disk drives! The more noise the create, the > more fun they are... > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Try em on for fun and bit of off topic sorry! Miniscribe if they're still working: 36xx (noisy stepper), 6085 more of a house thumper, 3180E real loud rapid-fire tink tink and dreadful screech like blackboard/fingernails when seeking from one track to track in long, rapid steps.. 8450+. Few Priam models that uses 16 heads on linear voice coil and that make a scary metallic pinging like pong ball being dropped on startup. And few old Maxtor 7xxx models, they make noises like baby rattle and maybe still does that on current models. Remember! That older 7xxxx models are actually Miniscribe's latest design just before Maxtor which regeattably downgraded in reputation when they grabbed that stupid brand. Conners and those Seagate's "Conners" is very silent hum but not exactly real performer. Historical item, several seagate engineers started up Conner company in around '85 after arguements with Seagate officals on proper designs of making 3.5" which Seagate did not listened to. Seagate made lot of stinker ST1xx series where conner made lot of reliable CP3xxx/CP30xxx series but later models got poorer with time as they developed newer ones with larger bytes. After this mistake, bought up the Impimis instead to get their expertise in 3.5 drives. Comments: The original CP30101 disc pack looks not too different from CFA 850, 1gb drives. That original CPS3425A I think is what exactly looks like segate is currently producing now. :( AND real POOPer of the day few days ago when we tried to make one of them work with a ST5850A and the new "Conner" 3.2GB I think. That clearly shows that Seagate did not fully worked all bugs out of that original "Conner" hd bios. Not successful, we put it on seperate port instead. Suggset choose more carefully if one is going with Seagate's "Conner" drives now. I'm staying on the fence on this one until time will tell then I will drop the "Conner" sigma from my list after all if things get better. Quantums like fireball series and seagate's ST5xxxx is just tad noisy but not too objectable as they usually are very fast performer. That noise issue/vibration issues works well when using strong mounting hardware in good solid cases. Noise level get worse if the fans that seems to work is not spinning smoothly enough! Troll From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Nov 14 15:12:44 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711150129.AA11214@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <346C4FFE.9D0CA9A8@batelco.com.bh> from "HOTZE" at Nov 14, 97 01:19:59 pm Message-ID: <199711150208.VAA23094@mail.cgocable.net> > > I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was > > LOUD!!! > > If you think that was loud, you've never heard a RP05 spinning up :-). I have heard it too...like a jumbo jet on takeoff. Seems to be most of noise from that too powerful blower motor. Why the need for that blower to be there?! Ack! > The most amazing thing is being in a real computer room (i.e. dozens > of 14" drives) when the power suddenly goes *off*. The silence is > astonishing. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > I'm sure that would be real shock. And a BIG trump when all heads suddenly as one parks home when power went out. (Along with a fading sound of spindown with one or two squeak from bit worn platters). And burning smell of brake material but I have imagination running amok. :) Troll From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 14 20:15:53 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711150208.VAA23094@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 14, 97 09:12:44 pm Message-ID: <9711150215.AA09697@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 485 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971114/0d35cad3/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Nov 14 15:27:35 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Help with Mac Plus In-Reply-To: <971114203731_2004642045@mrin52.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199711150223.VAA25572@mail.cgocable.net> > as specified before, if the "about this mac" doesnt show it, you may have to > remove the case and look at the simms. plus models came with 1 meg standard > in 4 256k simms. other mem configurations are 2 1meg simms and 2 256k ones > for 2.5 meg and 4 1meg simms for a total of 4 which is what my platinum mac > plus has. i've noticed two mac plus designs; one in the apple //e beige > colour and the other in corporate gray. i presume they are identical though. > > In a message dated 97-11-14 10:49:08 EST, PG Manney put forth: > > > Can anyone with Macintosh experience help me, please? > > > > 1) How do I check the amount of memory installed without ripping open the > > beast? > > > > 2) The machine was running some programs (Chess, for example) and suddenly > > refuses to do so, claiming, "xxx K needed to run this program. You have > 512 > > K). Customer doesn't know how much was installed. Might this be a > > configuration problem, or has it lost contact with half its RAM? (and it > > hasn't even hit 40 years yet!) > > > > Thanks, > > manney@nwohio.com > > I could be mistaken, I believe there are two or three types of Mac + motherboards. Post some key items that you could describe from your motherboard, oh, you do need that 8" T15 or T20 screwdriver. All of them requires working on either one jumper (yay) or move or remove one resistor with soldering iron (boo hiss!). Oh, also you need to check the ROMs for either one of 3 types. Type 1 and 2 require strange rule of starting up steps especially when scsi devices are attached where Type 3 is most desireable. I personally prefer SE/30 but no candy yet if the price is right! It has: 8 simm slots, '030 at 16mhz, supports internal scsi hd and 1.44 fd. Just that board with ROM on it would do fine for me! Mac Classic IS '020, 2 slot simm without most fancy enhancements like that SE/30. :( The final but bit less desirable is the Mac Classic II color. System up to 6.0.8 can be run on that Mac + and SE, SE/30, and Mac II models. 7.x is too demanding for them. When I was hired at one of college working on inventoring, using Mac + 4mb, 7.x and a database, slow SC hd, it seems does swaps every time I touch keys. YUKKY! MHO. Troll From william at ans.net Fri Nov 14 20:23:45 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711150215.AA09697@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > Most removable pack drives go through a "purge" cycle before loading > the heads. The idea is to blow enough air through to pick up any specks > of dust that were in the pack or got into the drive while loading. Quite a few years ago, I scrapped out a big drive that had an arm with very fine brushes that would sweep the platters just after the thing came to speed. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Nov 14 15:30:24 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711150215.AA09697@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <199711150208.VAA23094@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 14, 97 09:12:44 pm Message-ID: <199711150226.VAA25985@mail.cgocable.net> > > > If you think that was loud, you've never heard a RP05 spinning up :-). > > I have heard it too...like a jumbo jet on takeoff. Seems to be > > most of noise from that too powerful blower motor. Why the need > > for that blower to be there?! Ack! > > Most removable pack drives go through a "purge" cycle before loading > the heads. The idea is to blow enough air through to pick up any specks > of dust that were in the pack or got into the drive while loading. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) Uhhh... could be RL02? It came either internal only or removeable models and all I could see that fan kept going and going. All I recall someone who told me was 1.22mb but I could be mistaken. Troll From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 14 20:28:43 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 14, 97 09:23:45 pm Message-ID: <9711150228.AA00056@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 772 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971114/9d64b544/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 14 20:32:04 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711150232.AA02756@world.std.com> < <> > HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it <> > was LOUD!!! < <> The most amazing thing is being in a real computer room (i.e. dozens <> of 14" drives) when the power suddenly goes *off*. The silence is <> astonishing. I was in a computer room at dec when a power failure hit. Imagine 30 RA81s and 82s plus two 8650s going silent. The lastime I heard that deafining silence the engine on my plane stopped in the air! It's not the loud but the sudden lack of it. Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 14 20:33:27 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711150226.VAA25985@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 14, 97 09:30:24 pm Message-ID: <9711150233.AA04356@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971114/def12cca/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Fri Nov 14 20:43:20 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: More off-topic stuff In-Reply-To: <199711150200.VAA21775@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: Ok, I know this is furthering the off-topic, non-classic posts, but as said before, this is hands down the best place to ask these questions since there is a lot of hardware knowledge floating around. I'm working on a project right now where I'm using several PCs with Western Digital Caviar 11200 IDE hard drives. As I'm working, I'll hear some strange "thunking" sound coming from the PCs. After a while I finally found out it was coming from the hard drive of a couple PCs. It sounds as if the head is hitting against the case or something. Now, there is no disk access going on at all when this is happening, and it happens regularly at (seemingly) random intervals throughout the day. All of a sudden I'll start to hear the thunking sound and it will be coming from one of the two machines' hard drive. Very odd. Sorry for this non-related matter but again, this is the best place to ask. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Nov 14 15:51:52 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: More off-topic stuff In-Reply-To: References: <199711150200.VAA21775@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199711150247.VAA29393@mail.cgocable.net> > > Ok, I know this is furthering the off-topic, non-classic posts, but as > said before, this is hands down the best place to ask these questions > since there is a lot of hardware knowledge floating around. > > I'm working on a project right now where I'm using several PCs with > Western Digital Caviar 11200 IDE hard drives. As I'm working, I'll hear > some strange "thunking" sound coming from the PCs. After a while I > finally found out it was coming from the hard drive of a couple PCs. It > sounds as if the head is hitting against the case or something. Now, > there is no disk access going on at all when this is happening, and it > happens regularly at (seemingly) random intervals throughout the day. All > of a sudden I'll start to hear the thunking sound and it will be coming > from one of the two machines' hard drive. Very odd. > > Sorry for this non-related matter but again, this is the best place to > ask. > > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > Sam, Good thing, you asked! Please jump over to the www.wdc.com and d/l the program that will revise the hd's bios to be more quieter. Troll From wpe at interserv.com Fri Nov 14 20:49:45 1997 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Probably not counting... DECserver 200/MC References: Message-ID: <346D0DC8.E717067C@interserv.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > > OK, so I am not familiar with the unit, but why would it not count > as a > > > "computer"? Is it not yet ten years old (for this list)? > > > > > > > It's an 8 port terminal server. I think it's 10 years old. > > Well, then I would think it would be a "classic", even though it is > just a > terminal server. Even these things, often tucked away in a rack and > not > seen, are important. Routers, switches, CSUs, and so on all deserve a > spot in our collections. I am waiting to find a nice "classic" Cisco > AGS > (OK, I would settle for an IGS) to play with! > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Jeez! I remember the DECserver 100, which was one heck of an improvement over the (expliative deleted) Gandalf switch.... Allison, I'd be willing to bet that you could add to this.... Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 14 21:44:44 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711150233.AA04356@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Nov 14, 97 06:33:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1006 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971115/1be34619/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 14 21:12:34 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Anyone have a used copy of this book? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971113203638.0a279404@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >At 07:34 PM 11/11/97 -0800, you wrote: >>Try http://www.powells.com next to Amazon they're about the biggest >>bookstore in the world. Plus they've the advantage of actually being open >>to the public. They have a really awsome Technical bookstore. Powells is >>a must see if you're ever in the Portland Oregon area, it's almost a >>tourist attraction! However, I've no idea if they've got the book you > >Actually, Powell's *is* a tourist attraction. At least, we make a point of >stopping there whenever we're in town. The main store is a full city block. >If you're in the area, you definitely have to check it out. > >I don't know if they've got their full selection on-line; if not you can I think it's pretty much the full selection, based on searches I've done just prior to going in. It's a fair drive to downtown for me, so I've been known to do a search to see if they have anything on the topic I want prior to going in to the Technical Bookstore. The technical bookstore is larger than the average bookstore, and about two blocks away from the main store. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From wpe at interserv.com Fri Nov 14 21:35:10 1997 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: <346C4FFE.9D0CA9A8@batelco.com.bh> from "HOTZE" at Nov 14, 97 01:19:59 pm <199711150208.VAA23094@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <346D186D.D241210E@interserv.com> jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was > > > LOUD!!! > > > > If you think that was loud, you've never heard a RP05 spinning up > :-). > I have heard it too...like a jumbo jet on takeoff. Seems to be > most of noise from that too powerful blower motor. Why the need > for that blower to be there?! Ack! > > > The most amazing thing is being in a real computer room (i.e. dozens > > > of 14" drives) when the power suddenly goes *off*. The silence is > > astonishing. > > > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > > I'm sure that would be real shock. And a BIG trump when all heads > suddenly as one parks home when power went out. (Along with a fading > sound of spindown with one or two squeak from bit worn platters). > And burning smell of brake material but I have imagination running > amok. :) > > Troll I remember it in the old MLO4-4 and MLO1-1 (For non-DEC former or currentemployees, all references to ML or MLO refer to the old woolen mill in Maynard Mass, USA, that was the company's headquarters for years), but, as a former system operator, in the above locations, this was definately a "pregnant silence".. The "Klaaaacccckkkkkk!!!!!!!" of the relays, also commanded some attention.. Anyone remember the smell when a(n) RP06 disk pack decided to talk to it's heads, at a distance closer than factory spec's called for (or the somewhat sensual dance that the old RP07 used to do when the seeks happened just right (sound of the song "la cuccaracha")).... Will From transit at primenet.com Fri Nov 14 22:12:44 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Model 100, again Message-ID: Ok, I still haven't been able to find out what's wrong with the LCD in my Tandy Model 100 (the rest of the machine works fine, as I was able to tell by blind-writing BASIC progs that beep the speaker). I opened it up, and the cable between the LCD module and the rest of the computer *looks* fine, as does the LCD module itself. I hope I don't have to replace the entire LCD module; I read on the tandy newsgroup that a new one, ordered via Radio Shack, costs upwards of $200!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 14 22:37:39 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: More off-topic stuff Message-ID: <199711150437.AA03616@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711150442.XAA16874@mail.cgocable.net> > > > It may be that most of the non stepper drive will reseek from time to time > to correct for temperature and wear. It's recalibration. > > Allison > Allison, Very prudent to check www.wdc.com because Sam's hds WAC 11200 is one of listed that requires s/w to quiet down that clicking and that is not a recal seek, it's a wear leveling feature. So, I already suggested he do so to d/l this s/w and run on them to make himself happier. Troll From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Nov 14 23:29:37 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Software needed Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971115052937.00695ea8@pop3.concentric.net> Can anyone tell me if Linux will run on the IBM Powerstation 7012/300 and 7011/200, these are both rs6000 machines. I got them at auction and the aix/unix operating systems and everything else was removed from the harddrives. I'm looking for some low cost operating system software to run these machines with. Thanks in advance. John Keep on computing !!! From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Nov 15 01:35:49 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Who Was Looking for the RSX-11/M Manual??? Please Respond! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971114233549.03055780@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi: I was in contact with someone through the group who was looking for an intro manual to RSX-11. I lost your street address (and email message)!!! Please repeat, and reply to me directly! Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From NOSPAM at ptolzserv.com Sat Nov 15 05:27:28 1997 From: NOSPAM at ptolzserv.com (Julian@RemoveTheZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: HX20 Message-ID: <346e8709.962124@post.demon.co.uk> Dear Tony, Yes - I've got all the bits and pieces for the HX20, including a system dsisk. I also did some software for it, such as an assembler/dissasemlber/debugger. I've got: HX20 TF20 Micorcassette Manuals (system, and user, repair, programming) The TF20 is a complete CP/M compatible computer (I know of one guy who turned it into a CP/M machine!). It uses the serial i/f to talk to the HX20 using a packet system a bit like xmodem. The same i/f also talked to the old video display interface (the one bit I never bought!). Best wishes, Julian From NOSPAM at ptolzserv.com Sat Nov 15 05:29:02 1997 From: NOSPAM at ptolzserv.com (Julian@RemoveTheZ) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: HX20 - again! Message-ID: <346f872c.996860@post.demon.co.uk> Dear Tony, Sorry - forgot to mention, I also have about 15 blank rom cartridges (you need a 2764 or 27128 eprom - I have a bit of software that formats the files correctly that I can give you). Julian From bwit at pobox.com Sat Nov 15 06:43:30 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Help with Mac Plus Message-ID: <01BCF191.CA58CB20@ppp-151-164-37-61.rcsntx.swbell.net> Another thing to consider is that the Mac allocates a max amount of memory for each program. If this "partition" is too small the program will not run regardless of the amount of memory in the machine. To view and/or change the memory setting for a program select it's icon and pick the File->Get Info menu item. A dialog will be displayed showing current memory requirements. These values may be changed to increase the partition available for the program. Bob ---------- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com[SMTP:SUPRDAVE@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 2:37 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Help with Mac Plus as specified before, if the "about this mac" doesnt show it, you may have to remove the case and look at the simms. plus models came with 1 meg standard in 4 256k simms. other mem configurations are 2 1meg simms and 2 256k ones for 2.5 meg and 4 1meg simms for a total of 4 which is what my platinum mac plus has. i've noticed two mac plus designs; one in the apple //e beige colour and the other in corporate gray. i presume they are identical though. In a message dated 97-11-14 10:49:08 EST, PG Manney put forth: > Can anyone with Macintosh experience help me, please? > > 1) How do I check the amount of memory installed without ripping open the > beast? > > 2) The machine was running some programs (Chess, for example) and suddenly > refuses to do so, claiming, "xxx K needed to run this program. You have 512 > K). Customer doesn't know how much was installed. Might this be a > configuration problem, or has it lost contact with half its RAM? (and it > hasn't even hit 40 years yet!) > > Thanks, > manney@nwohio.com > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2454 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971115/d6d001fc/attachment.bin From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 15 07:17:46 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <9711150129.AA11214@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > The most amazing thing is being in a real computer room (i.e. dozens > of 14" drives) when the power suddenly goes *off*. The silence is > astonishing. What would be even MORE amazing is when the power comes back ON a second later, with all the power switches still on, and everything tries to spin up at once... Or is there some safeguard against that? My RA81 makes plenty of noise, you can hear it a room away. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 15 07:29:27 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Who Was Looking for the RSX-11/M Manual??? Please Respond! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971114233549.03055780@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: I was the guilty party. Daniel Seagraves 106 West Forest Ave East Peoria, IL 61611 I've lost addresses before, this is nothing new... From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 15 07:35:03 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Who Was Looking for the RSX-11/M Manual??? Please Respond! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oooooh, crap. Did I just do what I think I did? Why is it I get the sudden feeling that about 2048 junk-mailers are aiming at me right now... From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 08:21:16 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Caution! References: <199711130029.TAA08598@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <346DAFDC.42C2DD8A@cnct.com> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > I just noticed in poking around this goverment auction stuff, a lot > of the computer stuff is marked with codes F# or H#, which can mean > it is radioactive. Yikes! Read the fine print before bidding! You say like it's a problem. Some of us _like_ to be able to read the manuals by the gentle glow of the CPU chassis while we're trying to figure how to rewire the basement for three-phase. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 15 08:17:40 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Caution! In-Reply-To: <346DAFDC.42C2DD8A@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > > You say like it's a problem. Some of us _like_ to be able to read the > manuals by the gentle glow of the CPU chassis while we're trying to > figure how to rewire the basement for three-phase. But doesn't radioactivity wipe harddisks? You'd be limited to punch cards and paper tape for storage... (Let's assign the swap: to ptp0:... ) From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 08:27:30 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: <199711100247.VAA02248@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <346DB152.2D056156@cnct.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > Your problerm is that your starting with a passion for collecting > rather than a passion for a particular machine, platform, or > architechture . Unlike those of us who never _planned_ to accumulate a bunch of "obsolete" hardware (Hell, some of it _wasn't_ when we got it), but just have a serious problem throwing anything away. And then after a few years decided to start filling gaps in the product line. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Nov 15 11:26:03 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: <199711150232.AA02835@world.std.com> Message-ID: <346DDB2A.6C74FFFD@batelco.com.bh> Well, it's loud, for me. I really kind of did enjoy my old 200MB drive, as it wasn't as noisy. But today, I heard the LOUDEST COMPUTER since the old 60's models I've seen. It wasn't the HDD or anything, but there was this constent humm just at the top end of our hearing range.... VERY ANNOYING. Allison J Parent wrote: > <> The most amazing thing is being in a real computer room (i.e. dozens > <> of 14" drives) when the power suddenly goes *off*. The silence is > <> astonishing. > > I was in a computer room at dec when a power failure hit. Imagine 30 > RA81s and 82s plus two 8650s going silent. The lastime I heard that > deafining silence the engine on my plane stopped in the air! It's not the > loud but the sudden lack of it. > > Allison From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Nov 15 11:26:02 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: <971114201129_699849198@mrin84.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <346DDB26.58FA8C93@batelco.com.bh> Yeah, I know... real quiet, fast, and the waranty is unbeatable (500,000 MTBF at 5,400 (5,200?) RPM ain't bad.... kind of like warranties with REAL computer parts back in the 80's. SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > off topic, but speaking of JTS, egghead is/was selling JTS 1gig drives for > $99. i bought one, and works great! quiet, and has a 3 year warranty. all i > got was the drive in a box, but then again, that's all i wanted. > > david > > In a message dated 97-11-14 05:22:36 EST, mr hotze put forth: > > > Well, it won't help you now, but a company called JTS Corporation has the > best > > HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was > > LOUD!!! It also had a fairly good HDD Test Score: 2.6 by the Norton > > Utilities > > benchmarks. I ran the test with my NEW 2.0 GB JTS, which got a 4.0!!! > Also, > > > > it's about $20-$40 cheaper than the equivelent Caviar. The best part: It > > has a > > cover with rubber on the outside. I had it IN THE OPEN for about 3 weeks, > > > and > > it still worked just fine. The cover protects it from static electrictity > > > form > > jerks like me, and from shock, stuff like that. From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 08:37:36 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: <199711131705.JAA16751@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <346DB3B0.39A027A0@cnct.com> PG Manney wrote: > > I dunno...I dropped one off my desk (2 1/2 ft), and it survived fine. > > I dropped a 1.2 GB HDD (WD, I think) BRAND NEW off my desk onto a carpet, > and it died (couldn't have been a ST-157, no-o-o-o.) Depends on how it > bounces, I guess. > > Anyone wanna try this with a 9 gig, in the interests of science? Sure. Ship it to me. (Oh, you meant _mine_?) -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 08:43:13 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: <199711131705.JAA16751@mx4.u.washington.edu> <346C4FFE.9D0CA9A8@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <346DB501.FC749899@cnct.com> HOTZE wrote: > > cover with rubber on the outside. I had it IN THE OPEN for about 3 weeks, and Hey, most of my PC hard drives are out in the open, and have been for years. In fact, I really hope my case screws weren't going to be collectors items. They kept getting in the way of reconfiguring my machines until they eventually got lost. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From photze at batelco.com.bh Sat Nov 15 12:41:15 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Caution! References: <199711130029.TAA08598@webern.cs.unc.edu> <346DAFDC.42C2DD8A@cnct.com> Message-ID: <346DECC7.B72042@batelco.com.bh> Yeah, or, for that matter, like to have a place to keep our parakeets where we know that they'll have fun (growing extra eyes and soforth), or having a way to keep our computer going without power or a UPS. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > > > I just noticed in poking around this goverment auction stuff, a lot > > of the computer stuff is marked with codes F# or H#, which can mean > > it is radioactive. Yikes! Read the fine print before bidding! > > You say like it's a problem. Some of us _like_ to be able to read the > manuals by the gentle glow of the CPU chassis while we're trying to > figure how to rewire the basement for three-phase. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails > of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From william at ans.net Sat Nov 15 10:16:04 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The most amazing thing is being in a real computer room (i.e. dozens > > of 14" drives) when the power suddenly goes *off*. The silence is > > astonishing. > > What would be even MORE amazing is when the power comes back ON a second > later, with all the power switches still on, and everything tries to spin > up at once... > Or is there some safeguard against that? I would certainly hope so, otherwise someone would have to run around throwing power switches. Many bits of 1980-90s era IBM stuff, like RS/6000s and AS/400s, have power sequencers in the racks (those extra wide 9309 things - 1.5m x 1m x 0.75m - a dumb idea as they do not match up to floor tiles!). These are actually quite nice, in that you can program them with jumpers to tell each thing when to turn on. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Nov 15 10:40:56 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Who Was Looking for the RSX-11/M Manual??? Please Respond! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19971114233549.03055780@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971115084056.006858cc@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Daniel: I've copied the manual and will mail it today or Monday! Sorry for the delay, Kevin At 07:29 AM 97/11/15 -0600, you wrote: >I was the guilty party. > >Daniel Seagraves >106 West Forest Ave >East Peoria, IL 61611 > >I've lost addresses before, this is nothing new... > > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Nov 15 10:49:27 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971115084927.02fa4a18@ferrari.sfu.ca> At 11:16 AM 97/11/15 -0500, you wrote: >> > The most amazing thing is being in a real computer room (i.e. dozens >> > of 14" drives) when the power suddenly goes *off*. The silence is >> > astonishing. >> >> What would be even MORE amazing is when the power comes back ON a second >> later, with all the power switches still on, and everything tries to spin >> up at once... >> Or is there some safeguard against that? A lot of mainframe/mini drives have a configuration option called "spindle delay" that allows for a settable delay between power on and spin up. One sets the drives to spin up individually rather than all at once. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 10:53:48 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Caution! References: <9711141654.AA17394@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <346DD39C.8C314CD4@cnct.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > >> Tim Shoppa | Internet: shoppa@triumf.ca > > >> TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6446 > > >Hey Tim, what is a Meson Facility anyway? > > Mesons are simply either pions, muons, or kasons! > > To complicate matters, muons used to be called "mu mesons", but it > turned out that muons weren't mesons after all - they're leptons. > Doesn't matter much, because as a practical matter we make muons too. > (Pion decay is the common method.) After you make them, who buys them? -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 11:01:29 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic "Laptops" References: <199711141422.GAA05143@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <346DD569.65169969@cnct.com> PG Manney wrote: > > >I've recently heard of someone who told me about an 8080 laptop from > >someone who has been into computers longer than I have. He said that > >there was a laptop... in the 1970's, that was smaller than the origional > >Compaq. It was soupossed to only have a little RAM, and it was used by > >journalists, who would connect with a modem an upload the files. Is > >this true? If so, what on earth ever happened to these? (Does this > >sound like something else... H/PC come to mind? > > Journalists around here used the Radio Schlock thingie (Tandy 100?) Don't > know the processor, tho'. Journalists _everywhere_ used them and many still do. We delivered over half a megabuck worth of the things to the Los Angeles Times from the RSCC in downtown LA. And during the 1984 Olympics it was impossible to keep AA batteries in stock anywhere in the county, since reporters from the rest of the country (and planet) were going through them like pretzel sticks. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 11:08:44 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: Message-ID: <346DD71C.2F82CF2B@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > > > HDDs I've seen in a LONG time. I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was > > > LOUD!!! > > Hey! What is wrong with loud disk drives! The more noise the create, the > more fun they are... Damned straight. I really miss the friendly chirping sound that the old Radio Shack 8.4MB disk subsystems (made by Shugart) used to make with every access. You could hear it over the noise of the motor, which is best described in an AAMCO commercial. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Sat Nov 15 11:49:01 1997 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Hard drive rescue: Update Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115094901.00e7ab80@mail.wizards.net> It seems that my initial post about a couple of hard drives and enclosures looking for a home was partly in error. The fellow's just offering the drives, and intends to keep the enclosures. Sorry for the inconvenience. -=-=- -=-=- >X-Sender: cyber@prismnet.com >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:14:17 -0600 >To: Bruce Lane >From: Tom Ray >Subject: Re: OLD hard drives and enclosure need RESCUE! > >actually, Bruce, what I was offering specifically was just the drives >themselves, not the external SCSI cases. I plan on using those. I'll send >the cables with the drives but there was nothing fancy about the enclosure. >They don't even have a fan to keep them cool, just a powersource and the >external SCSI connector. I'm still fairly new to SCSI so I am not sure what >I do or don't need out of the case. Let me describe as best I can. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Sat Nov 15 11:52:20 1997 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Tape backup unit: Any clues? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115095220.00e79930@mail.wizards.net> Hi, folks, Came across an interesting find recently. Manufactured by Digi-Data Corporation, out of Maryland (yes, they are still around), it's a Pertec-interface TBU that uses, of all things, a VHS cassette mechanism to back up as much as 2 gigabytes to a normal T120 VHS tape. Darndest thing I've seen this year! I've spoken to Digi-Data already, and it is still possible to get a manual for the thing (you better believe I'll be doing so!), so I intend to put it to good use. I'm just curious if anyone else has crossed paths with this unit. It's called a 'Gigastore.' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 11:53:55 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives References: Message-ID: <346DE1B3.3AD51D1A@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > says that they will last at least ten years. The best solution (other than > mylar punched tape) is probably the older WORM drives (not MOs!), as they Purely out of morbid curiosity, has anybody ever considered making Tyvek tape? The stuff is damned near impossible to tear and difficult even to stretch enough to lose data. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Sat Nov 15 11:56:28 1997 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Software preservation Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115095628.00e7c850@mail.wizards.net> OK... now that I've -finally- gotten hold of a CD burner, I can start thinking about preserving all the old software I have. What I'd like from the group is some pointers on ways that I can preserve things like RX50 floppies on CD. EPROMs and PROMs I can already deal with. What kind (if any) of binary or bit-copy utilities are available to help me in this regard? FTP sites, anyone? My primary workstation is Windoof NT, though I will be setting up an ESIX (Unix) system in the near future, or possibly Linux (haven't decided yet). I know about CoComp's SCSI Toolkit, but I'm not quite ready to spend another $500 just yet! ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Anthony.Eros at digital.com Sat Nov 15 12:26:02 1997 From: Anthony.Eros at digital.com (Anthony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Tape backup unit: Any clues? Message-ID: I've heard of these before, a large chemical company headquartered where I live used these to back up engineering data. There was some senior management concern raised though over the format -- "We've got to keep these under tight control. If they fall into the wrong hands, our competition might put them into a VCR and look at our data." I kid you not... -- Tony ---------- From: Bruce Lane[SMTP:kyrrin2@wizards.net] Sent: Saturday, November 15, 1997 12:52 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Tape backup unit: Any clues? Hi, folks, Came across an interesting find recently. Manufactured by Digi-Data Corporation, out of Maryland (yes, they are still around), it's a Pertec-interface TBU that uses, of all things, a VHS cassette mechanism to back up as much as 2 gigabytes to a normal T120 VHS tape. Darndest thing I've seen this year! I've spoken to Digi-Data already, and it is still possible to get a manual for the thing (you better believe I'll be doing so!), so I intend to put it to good use. I'm just curious if anyone else has crossed paths with this unit. It's called a 'Gigastore.' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From engine at chac.org Sat Nov 15 12:29:34 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Accumulation Squad Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971115084334.00f79730@pop.batnet.com> At 09:27 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >> Your problerm is that your starting with a passion for collecting >> rather than a passion for a particular machine, platform, or >> architechture . > >Unlike those of us who never _planned_ to accumulate a bunch of >"obsolete" hardware (Hell, some of it _wasn't_ when we got it), but >just have a serious problem throwing anything away. And then after >a few years decided to start filling gaps in the product line. Disclaimer -- I do have a serious problem throwing anything away. Nonetheless, with computers and me, it's not that. In June 1986 I bought two 10MHz 286 clones (1MB RAM, 20MB disk, green mono) from a nice guy in Scotts Valley for $2500 each. One of those belonged to an intensely practical person, i. e., my wife, and is now gone. The other one, however, was mine, and every time I went to chuck it, I said "Hey, I paid real money for this thing." So, in eleven-plus years, it's been a 286/10, a 386/40, a 486DX/33, a 486DX4/100....and is now, saddled with the cynical nickname of Millennium Falcon, my kid's second-string machine. Since it had a new PS sometime in the early nineties, the only original part left is the case, but bygawd I haven't wasted that $2500 yet.... It's like farmers who park their old cars in a row in a field. I mean, we have a house rule of "No computers in the living room or dining room, unless they're laptops or they're leaving," and even so, we have enough computers here that they take some time to count. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From manney at nwohio.com Sat Nov 15 11:33:29 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: DOS 3.31 Message-ID: <199711151830.KAA16400@mx3.u.washington.edu> >In a message dated 97-11-14 13:04:53 EST, you write: > ><< I can supply original DOS disks for 3.31 >> > >I would most certainly appreciate it. The computer these would be used on is >actually a Visual Technologies Commuter--a colleague noted that although this >unit runs intel 8086, 8088, 80286, it can boot into DOS 6.22. I have yet to >find out if this is true or not; however, what can we work out so that I may >get those disks? Even a PC (8088) will run DOS 6. E-mail me privately with your address, and we'll work out details. manney@nwohio.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Nov 15 12:30:27 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Software preservation In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971115095628.00e7c850@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971115103027.02f6a9cc@ferrari.sfu.ca> At 09:56 AM 97/11/15 -0800, you wrote: >though I will be setting up an ESIX (Unix) system in the near future, or >possibly Linux (haven't decided yet). ^^^^^ Use FreeBSD, it's much more stable. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From manney at nwohio.com Sat Nov 15 10:45:56 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Older computers FS Message-ID: <199711151830.KAA00852@mx4.u.washington.edu> >On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, PG Manney wrote: > >> Our local NASA is selling off older PC and other stuff. I'm local, if anyone >> wants anything. >> >> Stuff is at >> >> http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/Logistics/sales.htm > >Lots of stuff I'd like to see preserved, however if I read the details on >the site correctly the bidding closed yesterday (13-Nov.) > >DRAT! ...but look at the other one, under Plum Brook. It has some Zeniths, closing on the 23rd, I think. From manney at nwohio.com Sat Nov 15 12:19:52 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Model 100, again Message-ID: <199711151831.KAA23150@mx2.u.washington.edu> >Ok, I still haven't been able to find out what's wrong with the LCD in my >Tandy Model 100 (the rest of the machine works fine, as I was able to tell >by blind-writing BASIC progs that beep the speaker). Just type PRINT CHR$(7), which will process ASCII BEL (Control G). From engine at chac.org Sat Nov 15 12:33:34 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Tape backup unit: Any clues? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971115103312.00f6cbd0@pop.batnet.com> At 09:52 11/15/97 -0800, you wrote: >Came across an interesting find recently....a >Pertec-interface TBU that uses, of all things, a VHS cassette mechanism to >back up as much as 2 gigabytes to a normal T120 VHS tape. > > I'm just curious if anyone else has crossed paths with this unit. It's >called a 'Gigastore.' Such a device, maybe not this particular make, was the standard OEM backup for Alpha Micro minicomputers. Mid-eighties. Not madly reliable. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sat Nov 15 11:49:29 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Tape backup unit: Any clues? Message-ID: <01IQ1D6TS87Q9ICO14@cc.usu.edu> Kip Crosby wrote: >At 09:52 11/15/97 -0800, you wrote: >>Came across an interesting find recently....a >>Pertec-interface TBU that uses, of all things, a VHS cassette mechanism to >>back up as much as 2 gigabytes to a normal T120 VHS tape. >> >> I'm just curious if anyone else has crossed paths with this unit. It's >>called a 'Gigastore.' > >Such a device, maybe not this particular make, was the standard OEM backup >for Alpha Micro minicomputers. Mid-eighties. Not madly reliable. The backup unit an Alpha Micro sysadmin _i_ knew converted the data to video to get it onto the tape; i.e., it wasn't a Pertec interface, but used standard everyday VCRs. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 13:05:02 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Software needed References: <1.5.4.32.19971115052937.00695ea8@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <346DF25E.B2A7B749@cnct.com> John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > Can anyone tell me if Linux will run on the IBM Powerstation 7012/300 and > 7011/200, these are both rs6000 machines. I got them at auction and the > aix/unix operating systems and everything else was removed from the > harddrives. I'm looking for some low cost operating system software to run > these machines with. Thanks in advance. John Keep on computing !!! To the best of my knowledge, probably not now and likely not soon. As I recall, those machines are old Power (or maybe Power2) architecture (Bill Donzelli knows which models are which better than I do) and the closest Linux porting project is for the PowerPC, which is less closely related than the similar names might imply. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 13:17:01 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Who Was Looking for the RSX-11/M Manual??? Please Respond! References: Message-ID: <346DF52D.C3D650D0@cnct.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Oooooh, crap. Did I just do what I think I did? > Why is it I get the sudden feeling that about 2048 junk-mailers are aiming > at me right now... Coulda been worse. If you'd put your ICBM address on Usenet instead of a mailing list. (Gee, how would _I_ know). -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 15 13:54:55 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Who Was Looking for the RSX-11/M Manual??? Please Respond! In-Reply-To: <346DF52D.C3D650D0@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Coulda been worse. If you'd put your ICBM address on Usenet instead of > a mailing list. (Gee, how would _I_ know). Let me guess: This mailing list goes to a USENET group, right? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 15 14:06:59 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: [RANT] I hate life, I wish this was simple, like the PDP... Message-ID: I have been sitting here for the past 3 hours trying to make **** BSDi see a Digiboard that MS-DOG swears is there and BSD swears is not. If this were my PDP I could just drop in another DZ11, but no, Intel has to make the machines, and they have to use some bass-ackwards IBM BIOS which limits the normal amount of serials to 4... And, since this is work, I can't leave at 5 because the CUSTOMERS are down, and they get to call me with their whiny little voices and say "The Internet is down, and it's your fault I didn't read the mail saying this was scheduled...", and worst of all I'll be here till 6 because this doesn't work, and I could be getting an RL02, controller, and terminator for $20 at 5:00, but no, the CUSTOMERS are down, so I have to put myself last *AGAIN*... Oh, that feels better. Now, off to rebuild BSD again... From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 14:27:24 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: [RANT] I hate life, I wish this was simple, like the PDP... References: Message-ID: <346E05AC.D3C18D74@cnct.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > I have been sitting here for the past 3 hours trying to make **** BSDi see > a Digiboard that MS-DOG swears is there and BSD swears is not. If this > were my PDP I could just drop in another DZ11, but no, Intel has to make > the machines, and they have to use some bass-ackwards IBM BIOS which > limits the normal amount of serials to 4... And, since this is work, I > can't leave at 5 because the CUSTOMERS are down, and they get to call me > with their whiny little voices and say "The Internet is down, and it's > your fault I didn't read the mail saying this was scheduled...", and worst > of all I'll be here till 6 because this doesn't work, and I could be > getting an RL02, controller, and terminator for $20 at 5:00, but no, the > CUSTOMERS are down, so I have to put myself last *AGAIN*... > Oh, that feels better. Now, off to rebuild BSD again... Should have gone with Linux. But I repeat myself. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 15 14:34:58 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Who Was Looking for the RSX-11/M Manual??? Please Respond! References: Message-ID: <346E0772.5467C04C@cnct.com> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > Coulda been worse. If you'd put your ICBM address on Usenet instead of > > a mailing list. (Gee, how would _I_ know). > > Let me guess: This mailing list goes to a USENET group, right? No. I however once posted my own address (not where I am now, BTW) and I assume that tons of crap are still landing in that mailbox. Well, at least that costs the senders money, unlike junk email that I have to wade through. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Nov 15 14:41:49 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Software needed Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971115204149.0068d06c@pop3.concentric.net> Thanks for the input John At 02:05 PM 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >John R. Keys Jr. wrote: >> >> Can anyone tell me if Linux will run on the IBM Powerstation 7012/300 and >> 7011/200, these are both rs6000 machines. I got them at auction and the >> aix/unix operating systems and everything else was removed from the >> harddrives. I'm looking for some low cost operating system software to run >> these machines with. Thanks in advance. John Keep on computing !!! > >To the best of my knowledge, probably not now and likely not soon. As I >recall, those machines are old Power (or maybe Power2) architecture (Bill >Donzelli knows which models are which better than I do) and the closest >Linux porting project is for the PowerPC, which is less closely related >than the similar names might imply. >-- >Ward Griffiths >"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails >of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] > > From chesster at pcl.net Sat Nov 15 15:03:15 1997 From: chesster at pcl.net (Jason Whorton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: <01bcf209$e446bd80$941bb9ce@default> subscribe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971115/cd1e15e2/attachment.html From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Nov 15 17:01:49 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Info? HP1000 F series Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115150149.00891460@agora.rdrop.com> While wandering around one of my favourite surplus gear haunts today, I cam across a couple of HP 1000 F series minicomputers. While they look neat, I know just about nothing about them. Anyone out there familiar enough with them to give me the 'infamous 25 words or less' speech on their significance? It might take a few $$ to break one or more of them loose, so I'd like to have a bit of info before I make a concerted effort to procure them... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 15 17:17:52 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: DECwindows, and the MicroVAX 3100. Message-ID: I've noticed all this time that DECwindows is on this MV3100. What is it? It it like Macro$oft's windows, or Xwindows? And when it says "display device", what is it expecting, a Tek terminal, or VT of some sort, or some special adapter? From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Sat Nov 15 17:28:07 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711152328.SAA00679@zephyr.cacm.org> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Mr. Shoppa made this observation: > The most amazing thing is being in a real computer room (i.e. dozens > of 14" drives) when the power suddenly goes *off*. The silence is > astonishing. In an installation that size, the environmental A/C makes a sub- stantial amount of noise as well. The eeriest moments I've even encountered were at my first employer who had a _monster_ UPS supplying a pair of 5000 sq. ft. computer rooms and the power failed. The UPS held the computers up, but the A/C spun down and the lights all went off (save the battery-operated ones). It was, shall we say, strange. The backup generator (a big old V-16 diesel in the parking lot) came on about 20 seconds later and the A/C and lights came back on. Oddly enough, the A/C made more noise than the computer gear. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Sat Nov 15 17:32:20 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <199711152332.SAA00685@zephyr.cacm.org> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Mr. Donzelli mentioned: > Quite a few years ago, I scrapped out a big drive that had an arm > with very fine brushes that would sweep the platters just after the > thing came to speed. DEC RP04s (Sperry drives, IIRC) had that as a feature. It was later found that the brushes did more damage than good, and the brushes were subsequently all tied back with wire-ties as per an ECO. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Nov 15 19:04:33 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <971115200433_2118050667@mrin53.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-15 09:30:25 EST, HOTZE put forth: > Yeah, I know... real quiet, fast, and the waranty is unbeatable (500,000 MTBF > at > 5,400 (5,200?) RPM ain't bad.... kind of like warranties with REAL computer > parts > back in the 80's. Real computer warranties? hmmm, the warranty on my apple //+ was only 90 days if i'm not mistaken... david From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Nov 15 19:08:01 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Tape backup unit: Any clues? Message-ID: <971115200800_-1407508445@mrin85.mail.aol.com> I dont have the exact same thing, but an old IBMer gave me something called a videotrax, which is an 8bit isa board that connects to a vcr for backup purposes. I got the complete thing, with box and sw. of course, this one only holds 80meg per vcr tape. david In a message dated 97-11-15 12:53:59 EST, Bruce Lane put forth: > Came across an interesting find recently. Manufactured by Digi-Data > Corporation, out of Maryland (yes, they are still around), it's a > Pertec-interface TBU that uses, of all things, a VHS cassette mechanism to > back up as much as 2 gigabytes to a normal T120 VHS tape. > > Darndest thing I've seen this year! I've spoken to Digi-Data already, and > it is still possible to get a manual for the thing (you better believe I'll > be doing so!), so I intend to put it to good use. > > I'm just curious if anyone else has crossed paths with this unit. It's > called a 'Gigastore.' From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Nov 15 19:17:48 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad Message-ID: <971115201747_-894777621@mrin58.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-14 23:20:56 EST, you write: > > I was using a WD Caviar 2.0 GB, and it was > > LOUD!!! > > If you think that was loud, you've never heard a RP05 spinning up :-). > > The most amazing thing is being in a real computer room (i.e. dozens > of 14" drives) when the power suddenly goes *off*. The silence is > astonishing. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > off-topic again: speaking of loud, i worked in a small computer room back in 1992 and when i came in one afternoon, it was quieter than normal. turns out the ac units werent running so those units themselves make plenty of noise. even louder was the IBM 3380/3880 (cant remember which) DASD units of which there were 4 rows of them. quite impressive for their size and noisy, probably due to the belt drive mechanism. later they were replaced with one small row of hitachi drives which were mcuh quieter and had almost 2x the capacity, I was told. david From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Nov 14 22:12:47 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <971115200433_2118050667@mrin53.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971114221247.0093e200@mail.northernway.net> At 08:04 PM 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-11-15 09:30:25 EST, HOTZE put forth: > >> Yeah, I know... real quiet, fast, and the waranty is unbeatable (500,000 >MTBF >> at >> 5,400 (5,200?) RPM ain't bad.... kind of like warranties with REAL >computer >> parts >> back in the 80's. > >Real computer warranties? hmmm, the warranty on my apple //+ was only 90 days >if i'm not mistaken... I was about to say the same thing... I never owned a Tandy with more than 90 days warranty on it -- tho I've *never* had one fail. (Tho my cousin dropped my floppy drive 8ft onto pavement... hmm, wonder why it never worked after that? Most useless $180 _he_ ever spent, he said back then! Now he works for Siemens...) The I/O board in my 386SX failed 30 days after the 1 year warranty went out. Thank goodness back then they were only $13.00 + S/H! I don't think the Commies had any better warranty, IIRC... My Atari came w/o docs as well -- maybe this could be a new entry for the Classic Computer List Database??? Length of Warranty? :-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From william at ans.net Sat Nov 15 21:39:54 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Software needed In-Reply-To: <346DF25E.B2A7B749@cnct.com> Message-ID: What? Did I here my name? > To the best of my knowledge, probably not now and likely not soon. As I > recall, those machines are old Power (or maybe Power2) architecture (Bill > Donzelli knows which models are which better than I do) and the closest > Linux porting project is for the PowerPC, which is less closely related > than the similar names might imply. Well, I do not know, but I will agree to everything mentioned above. To tell you the truth, I have not worried about it yet, as I have several copies of AIX on tape (no, do not even ask - they have all sorts of old NSF/IBM "secret" code on them). I would like to find some sort of directory of RS/6000 models, as there are lots of them. Something the like the Sun Hardware FAQ would be great. William Donzelli william@ans.net From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Nov 15 22:03:20 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: What's an apple //GS worth? Message-ID: <971115230320_1304928307@mrin44.mail.aol.com> Ive found a guy locally who has a GS for sale, but hasnt set a price. ( i hate that) what does everything think it's worth? details are sketchy, but here's what he said its a woz version coupla megs of memory. (exp card?) external cms hard drive (scsi?) has a sound card. he says it's not the ensoniq sound chip, but an adaptor card. 3.5 drive. also has some books and sw. what would be a decent price for this? he may be interested in a basic 486 i have to barter with. david From william at ans.net Sat Nov 15 22:05:30 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <971115201747_-894777621@mrin58.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: > speaking of loud, i worked in a small computer room back in 1992 and when i > came in one afternoon, it was quieter than normal. turns out the ac units > werent running so those units themselves make plenty of noise. even louder > was the IBM 3380/3880 (cant remember which) DASD units of which there were 4 ^^^^ > rows of them. quite impressive for their size and noisy, probably due to the > belt drive mechanism. later they were replaced with one small row of hitachi > drives which were mcuh quieter and had almost 2x the capacity, I was told. That is not much of a suprise, as the 3380s were probably fairly old then (although there are many flavors of them). There are probably some still in use, as I see them in the junkyards. Large and fast... William Donzelli william@ans.net From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Nov 15 23:26:51 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: What's an apple //GS worth? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971116052651.0069c6d0@pop3.concentric.net> I have seen them go from free to $30 with less extra's them the one you are looking at. At 11:03 PM 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >Ive found a guy locally who has a GS for sale, but hasnt set a price. ( i >hate that) what does everything think it's worth? >details are sketchy, but here's what he said > >its a woz version >coupla megs of memory. (exp card?) >external cms hard drive (scsi?) >has a sound card. he says it's not the ensoniq sound chip, but an adaptor >card. >3.5 drive. >also has some books and sw. > >what would be a decent price for this? he may be interested in a basic 486 i >have to barter with. > >david > > From engine at chac.org Sun Nov 16 00:19:35 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: What's an apple //GS worth? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971115221931.00eef490@pop.batnet.com> At 23:03 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >Ive found a guy locally who has a GS for sale, but hasnt set a price.... If the 486 has decent RAM and disk I would trade him level, but only if you really want the IIGS. >its a woz version This is not the Good Thing it may sound like, apart from cool appearance. The Woz sig on the front of the case implies Rev 00 ( = earliest) ROMs and very limited expandability. AFAIK the released ROM versions were 00, 01, and 03; 00 could be upgraded to 01 with a chipset, but 03 was a logic board swap. There never was an 02; 04 existed, but the GS was killed before 04 went into production. Some of the 04 ROM code was written into GS/OS instead, but beyond this I yield gracefully (I hope) since others here surely know more than I do. >coupla megs of memory. (exp card?) >external cms hard drive (scsi?) >has a sound card. he says it's not the ensoniq sound chip, but an adaptor >card. >3.5 drive. >also has some books and sw. oh....like I said, how bad do you want it? __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From william at ans.net Sun Nov 16 00:27:17 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <971115201747_-894777621@mrin58.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: > was the IBM 3380/3880 (cant remember which) DASD units of which there were 4 > rows of them. Now that I have done a bit of sniffing around, I see that you are correct for both of your numbers - the 3880s controlled (and cached) the 3380s. Of course, this brings up a thought: with numbers like that, I wonder how many times the installation engineers went to the dock, only to find out the wrong crate was shipped. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sat Nov 15 19:48:40 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: References: <971115201747_-894777621@mrin58.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199711160644.BAA01726@mail.cgocable.net> > > was the IBM 3380/3880 (cant remember which) DASD units of which there were 4 > > rows of them. > > Now that I have done a bit of sniffing around, I see that you are correct > for both of your numbers - the 3880s controlled (and cached) the 3380s. > > Of course, this brings up a thought: with numbers like that, I wonder how > many times the installation engineers went to the dock, only to find out > the wrong crate was shipped. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Is that slapping belt driven by brushed massive motor and a dual head racks on opposed fashion like lycoming? Well, we had one fail, spindle bearings started to groan and lose speed. :) and you can see those rust colored platters through that semi-smoked plastic housings. The platter axle is horizontal and in front/back direction in relation to user when opening or closing that banging sheetmetal blue doors. I think it was between 10 or 14 thick platters. What exactly how much MB or MW that was? :) Troll From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Nov 16 01:10:28 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: Info? HP1000 F series In-Reply-To: James Willing's message of Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:01:49 -0800 References: <3.0.3.32.19971115150149.00891460@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199711160710.XAA13660@daemonweed.reanimators.org> James Willing wrote: > While wandering around one of my favourite surplus gear haunts today, I cam > across a couple of HP 1000 F series minicomputers. While they look neat, I > know just about nothing about them. Anyone out there familiar enough with > them to give me the 'infamous 25 words or less' speech on their significance? They're real-time control systems, based around the 21MX processor family (which succeeded the 2100 (ca. 1972) and 211[456] (ca. 1967)) and running one of several flavors of HP's RTE operating system. I've never actually used them. > It might take a few $$ to break one or more of them loose, so I'd like to > have a bit of info before I make a concerted effort to procure them... If you have HP Measurement/Computation catalogs from 1980 or 1981 or so, you could look in there. Else pester me and I'll try to FAX a few relevant pages to you. -Frank McConnell From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 16 01:16:57 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: What's an apple //GS worth? In-Reply-To: <971115230320_1304928307@mrin44.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: >Ive found a guy locally who has a GS for sale, but hasnt set a price. ( i >hate that) what does everything think it's worth? >details are sketchy, but here's what he said > >its a woz version They're supposed to be a dime a dozen, having said that, I've never seen one :^) The real question is what level or ROMs, as a Woz, it could be Level 00, 01, or 03. Level's 00 and 03 are something I've never seen either as the 01's seem to be the most common. >coupla megs of memory. (exp card?) Better have him define coupla megs. The bare minimum is 256k, which is basically a fancy Apple //e. 1.25Mb seems fairly standard, and is what my two have, I've found it limiting. 4Mb would be very good. >external cms hard drive (scsi?) I think I paid $30 new for my SCSI card recently. I'm using a 40Mb Syquest for a HD. >has a sound card. he says it's not the ensoniq sound chip, but an adaptor >card. Now this seems to be a plus, and something much sought after in //gs circles. Still to my bad hearing the built in sound isn't that bad. >3.5 drive. Bare minimum. Keep an eye out at Goodwill, and you'll be able to add a 5.25 and another 3.5 or 5.25 drive or two. I think the max is 4 drives. The 5.25 enable you to run most standard Apple // stuff. >also has some books and sw. This is ALWAYS a good thing, when I'm looking at a computer I'm always willing to pay a little more than I think it's worth if it has the manuals for the computer. Software with manuals included is even better. >what would be a decent price for this? he may be interested in a basic 486 i >have to barter with. Well, you don't mention if it's got a monitor, keyboard and mouse (I assume it does). I've seen ones no where near this good where people are asking $200-300. Personally I don't see it being worth that much. I'd say if you don't have a use for the 486 it's probably a good trade, although I find my old 486 makes a great server, but then it's far from basic. IF it's as good as it sounds it might be, I'd probably value the system at $100-150. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 16 00:55:15 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: DECwindows, and the MicroVAX 3100. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I've noticed all this time that DECwindows is on this MV3100. >What is it? It it like Macro$oft's windows, or Xwindows? >And when it says "display device", what is it expecting, a Tek terminal, >or VT of some sort, or some special adapter? It's pretty much X-Windows as I recall, but it's been a while since I've seen it, and I never really got to play with it. I believe it requires that the uVAX have a video card and monitor. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Sun Nov 16 07:47:27 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: DECwindows, and the MicroVAX 3100 Message-ID: <199711161347.IAA00160@zephyr.cacm.org> On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Mr. Seagraves inquired of the assembled masses thusly: > I've noticed all this time that DECwindows is on this MV3100. > What is it? It it like Macro$oft's windows, or Xwindows? > And when it says "display device", what is it expecting, a Tek > terminal, or VT of some sort, or some special adapter? DECwindows is an X-window system workalike that runs on both VAXen and DEC's RISC platforms. It's merely a way for a client program running on one machine to display its graphics on a server running on another machine (Warning: in X terminology, "server" and "client" seem reversed - you sit in front of the server while the client shoves graphics data at you; the "client" does the applications processing). The two are somewhat compatible. I have a pal in Providence who has a VAX-11/750 and DECwindows, I have a Linux box at home running an X server. We were able to get an X session set up with a client running on his VAX to display on my machine; the network transport was CMU/IP for the VAX, standard TCP/IP at the Linux end. Yes, it was slow as a dog, especially as I have a 14.4 kbps modem, but it _did_ work. Fun stuff. Cheers. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Nov 16 11:17:28 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: I've asked it once, I'll ask it a million times.... Message-ID: <346F2AA8.BA98309B@batelco.com.bh> Hello. Does anyone have any systems that are not "high" on the price list of classics that they could give me? (I could have my relatives in the states get them via UPS, then they could mail 'em to me as a Christmas present..... it would make me very happy!) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Nov 16 13:26:14 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <346F48D5.D766C3EB@batelco.com.bh> Okay.... recently, there's been lots of "off-topic" stuff going on here about computers... but I think that it's not "off-topic." In my mind, there is no doubt that the early mass-produced CD-ROM drives (not the origionals of 1984, but the ones that were made to be put into PCs, not servers) are classic componets, even though many are of this decade. In my opinion, the first 486 PCs (not servers) are classics... ones that are still used, but classics... even though most of 'em were made in like 1991-93... arguebly, early Pentiums (60, 66 Mhz) could be classics, as they steped into a new era (superscaler arceticture) for the mass-production market even though the Pentium chips wern't even on the market until mid-1993... if you remember, in the "welcome" message, it said that it was hard to state the definiton of a classic... but 10 years or older would do. I do not wish to offend the owner, but they are one person, and they can make mistakes... and together, as a group, the chances of making an accurate definiton are smaller with us. Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer market and has historic signifiance, OR is 10 years old or older." The one evedeint place that requires revsion is the "historical signifiacne" but I'm not sure how to include that while still aknowladgeing the presence of many of the best machines and componets that did indeed fail in the process... but at least Wang's did eventually fall.... I can't even rememeber all of the problems that they had... Openly, innocently, and waiting for improvement (on my quote, not the other stuff,), Tim D. Hotze From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Nov 16 10:42:40 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <346F48D5.D766C3EB@batelco.com.bh> from "HOTZE" at Nov 16, 97 07:26:14 pm Message-ID: <9711161642.AA04823@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 538 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971116/54699edd/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Nov 16 10:40:43 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas... In the last few days the collection received an AT&T UNIX PC (aka 7300, 3b1) in extremely good condition. It arrived with all of the original docs, software, and mouse. The docs were unwrapped , and the mouse was in its original foam packing. "Kind of nice when someone packs things away properly" I thought. Well, its been a bit busy around the garage the last couple of weeks, so I put the unit and its associated stuff on the shelf and covered it up for a time. Last night, while I was working on a notebook (yes, one of those 'modern' things) for one of my wife's friends, I decided to have another look at the UNIX PC while I was waiting for a disk scan to finish... Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check of the unit (nothing loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped happily and started drawing little boxes on the screen as I recalled it doing when it was starting up... However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little boxes later, it starts to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a prompt of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy drive (it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is looking for a floppy. Fine... so, I grab the binder containing the software distribution, open it up... All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it starts to dawn on me, that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind; made by the person who gave me the machine... "My father bought it for his company, read the manuals and realized that he had no idea what he was doing..." I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was released (and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things, open the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put it on the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK! And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I have a fair amount of time to spend with it) No flame wars please, just the random philosophical question... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 16 11:24:29 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:37 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711161724.AA15488@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, HOTZE wrote: > Hello. Does anyone have any systems that are not "high" on the price > list of classics that they could give me? (I could have my relatives in > the states get them via UPS, then they could mail 'em to me as a > Christmas present..... it would make me very happy!) I'll assume we're talking micro's here. . . If I recall correctly, the only classic systems that are really sought after are the more well known single-board and S-100 system (e.g. Altair, Imsai, Apple I, etc.) These are now museum pieces, and will fetch a high price ($1000+) There are plenty of lesser-known boards, and of course the 80's era desktop computers (TRS-80, TI, Atari, etc.) that can still be had for a song, if you know where to look. . . From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sun Nov 16 11:59:57 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Accumulation Squad Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971116095724.29270718@ricochet.net> At 10:29 AM 11/15/97 -0800, you wrote: >I mean, we have a house rule of "No computers in the living room or >dining room, unless they're laptops or they're leaving," Hmmm... What a silly rule! 8^) (As for me, there is currently (at least before I left for a weekend holiday) a Data General One & a Mac Plus in the dining room, At least an Apple IIe, M100, Dash 030, and probably a couple of others in the living room, Atari Falcon in the laundry room... Nothing (yet) in the kitchen or bathroom... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Sun Nov 16 12:02:46 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711160644.BAA01726@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: > Is that slapping belt driven by brushed massive motor and a dual head > racks on opposed fashion like lycoming? Well, we had one fail, > spindle bearings started to groan and lose speed. :) and you can see > those rust colored platters through that semi-smoked plastic > housings. The platter axle is horizontal and in front/back > direction in relation to user when opening or closing that banging > sheetmetal blue doors. I think it was between 10 or 14 > thick platters. I am not sure much about the internals, as most I have seen have had them mangled by the tines of forklifts. > What exactly how much MB or MW that was? :) I think the 3380 boxes could contain many drives (non-RAID, probably), and those drives could be of various sizes. When I worked a short summer job fetching tapes for everyone's favorite macaroni-and-cheese maker's 3081, I think the 3380s were each in the few gigabyte catagory. Oh, you would not want to drop one of these drives... William Donzelli william@ans.net From danjo at xnet.com Sun Nov 16 12:06:57 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <346F48D5.D766C3EB@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: Well Tim (and you others 8-) We do not need a new definition. Time will include all machine and software - eventually. The limit of ten years was originally imposed to keep the IBM-PCer out. Not that that is a good thing - but to reduce the noise level. I don't know if this is right tho - but I do know that the original PC is in the range now. Maybe another list for Not-So Classic Computers should be set up - but the people wouldn't talk about the stuff we doo - it would gravitate to - "Why can't I get Win95 to save my comm settings??" Well I DO NOT know and I DO NOT CARE 8-) Let's keep it on out-of-production equipment - ok? BC From william at ans.net Sun Nov 16 12:07:21 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or > just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I > have a fair amount of time to spend with it) Why not just get some disks from another 3b1? I do not think they are all that rare. On the other hand, you may want to open the package to make sure that the disks are not deteriorating for some reason - it is kind of a shame to open a box (or crate) thinking that the innards will be pristine, only to find out that something has gone wrong... William Donzelli william@ans.net From danjo at xnet.com Sun Nov 16 12:11:07 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Well I vote to use it 8-) The 3B1 used a special WD processor. It could go bad just sitting there and then its worthless. Load it up and you can say you have a Working Classic. Keep the Docs pristine tho! BC From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 16 12:18:38 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Accumulation Squad References: <1.5.4.16.19971116095724.29270718@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <346F38FE.2D00870C@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 10:29 AM 11/15/97 -0800, you wrote: > >I mean, we have a house rule of "No computers in the living room or > >dining room, unless they're laptops or they're leaving," > > Hmmm... What a silly rule! 8^) (As for me, there is currently (at least > before I left for a weekend holiday) a Data General One & a Mac Plus in the > dining room, At least an Apple IIe, M100, Dash 030, and probably a couple of > others in the living room, Atari Falcon in the laundry room... Nothing > (yet) in the kitchen or bathroom... Hey, for years one of the standard excuses for getting a home computer was "Hey, we can keep recipes on it". For that of course, you really want a membrane keyboard -- pasta sauce in a Keytronics is fatal. And _of course_ a similarly protected laptop belongs in the bathroom, when you're setting down to do some serious Usenet reading. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 16 12:27:36 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad References: Message-ID: <346F3B18.2F1A93FC@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > > was the IBM 3380/3880 (cant remember which) DASD units of which there were 4 > > rows of them. > > Now that I have done a bit of sniffing around, I see that you are correct > for both of your numbers - the 3880s controlled (and cached) the 3380s. > > Of course, this brings up a thought: with numbers like that, I wonder how > many times the installation engineers went to the dock, only to find out > the wrong crate was shipped. You mean this week? (RS/6000 line has similar similarities in numbers.) -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From william at ans.net Sun Nov 16 12:39:36 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <346F48D5.D766C3EB@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: OK, I am probably going to get yelled at... > Okay.... recently, there's been lots of "off-topic" stuff going on here > about computers... but I think that it's not "off-topic." In my opinion it is. There are lots of good, smart people on this list that can help everyone with modern(ish) equipment, but there are also lots of them on other lists and USENET. > if you remember, in the "welcome" message, it > said that it was hard to state the definiton of a classic... but 10 > years or older would do. The definition is no doubt flawed, but trying to fix it may prove to be impossible. It is the classic cats vs. dogs argument - no one will win, or have any real valid points to argue with. When does a machine become a classic? Probably when a bunch of us computer geeks get together and ask "Remember the Unitari PDQ-8/w? Now that was a good machine! They don't make machines like that anymore!". It is probably best to stay with what we have - it can be bent as needed. > Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer > which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer > market and has historic signifiance, OR is 10 years old or older." The problem is that that means just about any machine over 3 months old. > The > one evedeint place that requires revsion is the "historical signifiacne" > but I'm not sure how to include that while still aknowladgeing the > presence of many of the best machines and componets that did indeed fail Many machines that did fail were historically significant - Xerox springs to mind. Also, sometimes a whole class of machines is significant, and sometimes just a few instances (Smalltalk influence leaking out now!) are. The IBM RT was a bomb, but a hundred or so of them did a great deal to society. Another example would be the 68000 developement systems that Apple used to make the Lisa (and Macintosh) - again, the class of hardware may only be a footnote, but the few actual machines shaped the industry forever. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 16 12:43:36 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED References: <9711161642.AA04823@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <346F3ED8.9E778811@cnct.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer > > which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer > > market > > The problem is that the computer market regards anything that's currently > being sold as "outdated". I know managers refusing to buy DEC Alpha's > because the Intel Merced chip is supposed to be available in a couple > of years - and the first Merced's will be only a bit slower than today's > currently available Alpha's. Talk about being blown away by vapor... The saying used to be that if it was on the shelf, it was obsolete. Nowadays, if it's being being prototyped, it's obsolete. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Nov 16 12:46:03 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: HOTZE's message of Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:26:14 +0000 References: <346F48D5.D766C3EB@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <199711161846.KAA06056@daemonweed.reanimators.org> HOTZE wrote: > [...] if you remember, in the "welcome" message, it > said that it was hard to state the definiton of a classic... but 10 > years or older would do. I do not wish to offend the owner, but they > are one person, and they can make mistakes... and together, as a group, > the chances of making an accurate definiton are smaller with us. Right. Not too many people are going to agree on this. There's probably a few people out there who think the Atari Portfolio is a classic and I think it's under 10 years old. The IBM PC/AT is 13 years old now but I have difficulty thinking of it as a classic and I really couldn't care less. But the 10 year rule is simple and not without precedent (it's roughly the way other things are judged "antique" -- if I remember correctly the "magic number" is 100 years for furniture and housewares and 20 years for automobiles). That's why we have it, we know it's not perfect but it does provide a clear cutoff. (Aside to You Know Who You Are: knock it off, OK?) > Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer > which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer > market and has historic signifiance, OR is 10 years old or older." The > one evedeint place that requires revsion is the "historical signifiacne" Does it? The problem is that inside 10 years it's very difficult to judge historical significance. And just because it's older than 10 years doesn't make finding the historical significance any easier. I'm hard pressed to think of what was significant about the PC/AT, as near as I could tell at the time it was put to work as a bigger faster IBM PC, still running all the same old MS-DOS applications, still one at a time. And from conversations I've had with folks who were doing Unix stuff on the 80286 then, they didn't think 80286 protected mode was progress w/r/t the PDP-11. Well, what did the PC/AT have that the PC/XT didn't? 1.2MB minifloppies (although I saw those retrofit onto XT-class PCs), 16-bit slots, a cascaded interrupt controller to handle the additional interrupt request lines...and the A20 gate that let you get at another little chunk of RAM up above the 1MB boundary while still in real mode. Hmm. How many of these things do we consider historically significant now, and how many will we still consider significant in 5, 10, 25, 50, 100 years? -Frank McConnell From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Nov 16 12:48:39 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971116184839.00698074@pop3.concentric.net> I would vote to leave it alone, as this is a real classic untouched. John At 08:40 AM 11/16/97 -0800, you wrote: >You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas... > >In the last few days the collection received an AT&T UNIX PC (aka 7300, >3b1) in extremely good condition. It arrived with all of the original >docs, software, and mouse. The docs were unwrapped , and the mouse was in >its original foam packing. "Kind of nice when someone packs things away >properly" I thought. > >Well, its been a bit busy around the garage the last couple of weeks, so I >put the unit and its associated stuff on the shelf and covered it up for a >time. > >Last night, while I was working on a notebook (yes, one of those 'modern' >things) for one of my wife's friends, I decided to have another look at the >UNIX PC while I was waiting for a disk scan to finish... > >Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check of the unit (nothing >loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped >happily and started drawing little boxes on the screen as I recalled it >doing when it was starting up... > >However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little boxes later, it starts >to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a prompt >of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy drive >(it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is >looking for a floppy. > >Fine... so, I grab the binder containing the software distribution, open it >up... > >All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it starts to dawn on me, >that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind; made >by the person who gave me the machine... "My father bought it for his >company, read the manuals and realized that he had no idea what he was >doing..." > >I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was released >(and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things, open >the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put it on >the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK! > >And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or >just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I >have a fair amount of time to spend with it) > >No flame wars please, just the random philosophical question... > >-jim > >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > > From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 16 13:01:08 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: >> And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or >> just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I >> have a fair amount of time to spend with it) > >Why not just get some disks from another 3b1? I do not think they are all >that rare. I say leave what's sealed, sealed. I think it's pretty cool, and the odds are against ever finding another sealed set. As William points out, getting the disks from another system shouldn't be that hard, might take some time to actually get the 3b1 up and running because of this, but who cares! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From kroma at worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 16 13:00:16 1997 From: kroma at worldnet.att.net (kroma) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <19971116190027.AAA9476@kroma-i> >But the 10 year rule is simple and not without precedent (it's roughly >the way other things are judged "antique" -- if I remember correctly >the "magic number" is 100 years for furniture and housewares and 20 >years for automobiles). That's why we have it, we know it's not >perfect but it does provide a clear cutoff. > Actually after 20 years an automobile is considered a Classic, I think it's 40 - 50 years to be considered an Antique. With the frequency that new computers are introduced 10 - 15 years is probably a good definition for classic and 20 - 25 for antique. -- Kirk From zmerch at northernway.net Sat Nov 15 15:16:15 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711160644.BAA01726@mail.cgocable.net> References: <971115201747_-894777621@mrin58.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971115151615.00a59cb0@mail.northernway.net> At 01:48 AM 11/16/97 +0000, you wrote: [re: IBM 3380's) >What exactly how much MB or MW that was? :) As per MB -- depends on a *lot* of things, mainly the number of disks in the housing (as the number referred to the entire housing, not the internal disk paks, IIRC) and the letter suffix on the box. This info is circa 1989/1990 when I worked for Electronic Data Systems in Auburn hills -- searching for DASD book -- _Differences in DASD Models_ Currently, the most widely used model is the 3380 device, which has five model types, listed on the diagram on page B-1.5. Model D has single-density capabilities, model E has dual-density capabilities, and the model K has tri-density capabilities. ----------- Anyway, here's what I can glean from this goofily-formatted table: 3380D 3380E 3380K MB per device 630 1260 1890 MB per HDA 1260 2520 3780 MB per Unit 2520 5041 7562 GB per 4-unit string 10.08 20.16 30.24 I'm sure that these numbers have improved substantially since then... ;-) Oh, and since the 3380x moniker pertains to the HD's, the rackmounted enclosure and the whole shebang, you'd need a big football player to just lift it to be able to drop it on your foot -- and believe me, you wouldn't have a foot after that! HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 16 13:18:56 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... References: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <346F4720.60732039@cnct.com> James Willing wrote: > Last night, while I was working on a notebook (yes, one of those 'modern' > things) for one of my wife's friends, I decided to have another look at the > UNIX PC while I was waiting for a disk scan to finish... > > Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check of the unit (nothing > loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped > happily and started drawing little boxes on the screen as I recalled it > doing when it was starting up... > However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little boxes later, it starts > to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a prompt > of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy drive > (it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is > looking for a floppy. The marching blocks is almost always a sign of a serious motherboard problem. One of my three suffers from it, so it's set aside for parts. Unless that machine was shipped without an OS preinstall, which would make it unique in my experience. Dejanews seems to have stopped carrying the comp.sys.3b1 group, but the 3B1 FAQ is still available -- is one location. > All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it starts to dawn on me, > that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind; made > by the person who gave me the machine... "My father bought it for his > company, read the manuals and realized that he had no idea what he was > doing..." > > I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was released > (and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things, open > the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put it on > the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK! Think of it as evolution in action. > And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or > just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I > have a fair amount of time to spend with it) It's well worth spending time with. A fairly unique user interface over Unix, a fine 68010 CPU. The case design I still consider one of the sexiest _ever_ put on the market. Admittedly, the built-in 1200 baud modem is pretty well a lost cause. If the OS level isn't at least 3.0, the disks are fairly useless, though some of the documentation may still be usable. There were some missteps in integrating the Convergent Technologies kernel with the AT&T stuff. If you do get it to boot, there is a nice little Easter Egg invoked by the command ".!." from a shell prompt. That's dot-bang-dot. It'll give a list of the folks at AT&T, Convergent and Alloy who were involved in the project. Some of whom I worked with or otherwise met in the early 90's at Unisys at the old Convergent campus in San Jose, though most had gone on to other companies. And if you're interested, I may be able to supply a DOS-73 card -- I've got a couple I'm not using much -- not much runs these days on an 8086 with 512K and Hercules graphics. If you don't get it to boot and you have the later keyboard (with slots to take function key labels) I'd be interested in the keyboard at least, as those are not as common as the older keyboards I have -- the change was made not long before AT&T bailed out of the project. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 16 13:28:03 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... References: <199711161733.AA20408@world.std.com> Message-ID: <346F4943.E8296B8E@cnct.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Open it and crak it up. make full copies and backups. Save all packaging > by sliting the edges or whatever so that any making is preserved. Exploit > and document the machine to the world as I have no clue what a 3b1 is or > the cpu it used. Though I do remember the ads. Damn, does this mean I actually have to get off my ass and do some real work? Gimme a day or three to reread my docs and FAQs and condense things. As a start, the CPU was a 10Mhz MC68010, memory was 512k to 2MB on the motherboard, expandable with cards to at most 4MB. Disk was 10MB to 67MB stock, and no expansion was possible 67MB (1024 cyl by 8 head) was ever supported -- the users came up with ways to add a second and/or larger hard disk, but most of the components needed have long been discontinued. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 16 13:37:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... References: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <346F4B8F.BFEF217F@rain.org> James Willing wrote: > You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas... > > In the last few days the collection received an AT&T UNIX PC (aka 7300, > 3b1) in extremely good condition. It arrived with all of the original > docs, software, and mouse. The docs were unwrapped , and the mouse was in > > its original foam packing. "Kind of nice when someone packs things away > properly" I thought. > And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or > > just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I > > have a fair amount of time to spend with it) Wow, I wish we all had that type of problem :). My particular solution would be to try and run diagnostics to make sure the machine ran (if I found the time to do it) and just pack it away. One thing I do worry about is the power supply filter caps going bad. I am thinking that for my collection, powering up the machines periodically would be a good thing to maybe prevent such problems. From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Sun Nov 16 13:43:00 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, James Willing wrote: > You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas... [Brand new 3B1] > Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check of the unit (nothing > loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped I'd have been a little more careful here. I'd have opened up the CPU box, disconnected the PSU, and tested in on a dummy load. It only takes 1 dry joint to wipe out all the chips in the unit. > And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or > just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I > have a fair amount of time to spend with it) I know what _I'd_ do. I'd power it up (after checking the PSU, etc), install the software, and enjoy it. You see, I collect computers because I enjoy using them, hacking them, figuring out how they work, programming them, interfacing them, etc. A computer which doesn't work (or which for whatever reason is never given the chance to work) is of no interest to me. Of course repairing computers is a major interest of mine, so non-working machines don't stay that way. I'd probably also unpack the disks (although as others have said, getting a copy from a friend with the same machine is also an option), read the manuals, etc I remember that at the HP calculator conference 5 years ago I bought an HP71 service manual. Now, this manual is not common, and it came in the original shrink-wrap. Having got it, I ripped off said shrink-wrap, opened the manual, and started reading. You see, I didn't buy the manual as an example of HP shrink-wrap. I bought it to learn about the HP71. And that's something you can only do when you've opened the manual. > > No flame wars please, just the random philosophical question... Well, it's your machine, so you have to decide what to do in the end... > > -jim -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Sun Nov 16 13:47:23 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Accumulation Squad In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971116095724.29270718@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 10:29 AM 11/15/97 -0800, you wrote: > >I mean, we have a house rule of "No computers in the living room or > >dining room, unless they're laptops or they're leaving," > > Hmmm... What a silly rule! 8^) (As for me, there is currently (at least If I had to live by that rule, I'm not sure where I'd put my collection. The room that started out as a dining room now contains a couple of PC's, a PDP8/e, a PDP11/44, a PET, an Apple ][, an FTS88, a PERQ, and a couple of others. The living room contains a TRS-80 Model 3, HP150-II, etc... And you don't want to know what's in the kitchen (well, apart from a few CP/M machines, a 7' rack, etc, etc, etc). I've not started using the bathroom yet, but I think there are computers in just about every other space... > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Sun Nov 16 13:49:02 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Brett wrote: > > Well I vote to use it 8-) > > The 3B1 used a special WD processor. It could go bad just sitting there Does it? I thought it used a 68000 or a 68010 (I forget which). The 3B2 had the strange processor, which may have been WD, but I thought it was somebody else. > BC -tony From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 16 13:58:52 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... References: Message-ID: <346F507C.8A3A31B2@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Brett wrote: > > Well I vote to use it 8-) > > > > The 3B1 used a special WD processor. It could go bad just sitting there > > Does it? I thought it used a 68000 or a 68010 (I forget which). The 3B2 > had the strange processor, which may have been WD, but I thought it was > somebody else. The 3B2 line use the Western Electric 32000 series processors. Good for making phone switches, adequate for some database engines, sucks rocks for general purpose computing. IMAO. The Unix PC aka 7300 aka 3B1 used the MC68010. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From william at ans.net Sun Nov 16 14:20:57 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <346F507C.8A3A31B2@cnct.com> Message-ID: > The 3B2 line use the Western Electric 32000 series processors. Good for > making phone switches, adequate for some database engines, sucks rocks > for general purpose computing. IMAO. I once met a Bell engineer that was part of the early days of the 32x00 processors, and he said the thing was obsolete the day it was released. Apparently the floating point was really bad, even worse than Motorolas. The 32100 (the first generation) came in a unique package - a non-square PGA, with rows of pins. Typical WE, do things the weird way. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Nov 16 14:25:35 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: IBM 3380s In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971115151615.00a59cb0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: Look at: http://www.adcom.uci.edu/~pjcrump/ibm3380.html William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 16 15:57:48 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <199711162157.AA08043@world.std.com> <67MB stock, and no expansion was possible 67MB (1024 cyl by 8 head) was References: HOTZE's message of Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:26:14 +0000 <346F48D5.D766C3EB@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: I've got to agree with the comments about the multitude of IBM PC clones, not much in the way of classics there. One day I'll probably add a IBM PC to my collection when I find one in good shape, but that would be about the only PC clone I'm interested in adding to my collection. PC's are just to common, and they don't really have anything that sets them apart. For me part of what I enjoy about collecting classic computers is finding a machine that has something really different. A good example is the 16-bit Atari's and TOS, I find TOS (a windowing OS in ROM) incredibly cool. The Amiga's with their specialty chipsets. Dual processor systems that run CP/M and something else, such as the C-128 or Franklin Ace 1200. About the only computer that I would term as a classic, that isn't represented at all by the 10+ years definition would be the BeBox, and it never made it into true commercial production. The other reason I collect classic computers is to play with their OS's. Well, it wasn't till about '91 with OS/2 1.3 that the PC even had an acceptable OS. Although CP/M running native on a Pentium 133 is pretty cool, and fast! By collecting Non-PC's there a tons of OS's to play with. So while there are a tiny handfull of computers less than 10 years old that I might term classic, I totally agree with the more than 10 years old definition. As for historical significance, bah, what a crock. I don't consider historical significance a requirement or of importance when it comes to collecting classic computers. I collect them because I enjoy working with them, and find them interesting. On a simular note, has anyone noticed how much MS Windoz machines are becoming like the Apple Lisa? It's fast reaching the point where you by a PC and run proprietary MS software on it. Kind of reminds me of how basically the only software for the Lisa was to Office Suite. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Sun Nov 16 16:50:12 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711162250.RAA01768@zephyr.cacm.org> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:26:14, Mr. Hotze remarked to us: > Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer > which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer > market and has historic signifiance, OR is 10 years old or older." Given the marketplace today for "commodity" computers, what you buy today is, by definition, obsolete as there'll be something "better" along tomorrow. In a word - "why bother?". Age, also, alone, does not make a classic. I doubt that the standard run-of-the-mill '386 PeeCee will ever amount to anything except to, perhaps, archaeologists who dig one out of a landfill. There were too many of them made, and they were (are) regarded as "disposable". Look at the construction - modern machines aren't made to be repaired any more than a disposable cigarette lighter is made to be refilled. They burn out, you toss' em, and buy another one. Such was not always the case. Pre-PeeCee, machines were usually constructed very carefully. I don't doubt for a minute that engineers in the early '60s envisioned their creations happily hummimg away in the year 2000 - the boxes were built to last. Pop the hood on the latest thing to come down the 'pike - it's all ASICs, custom silicon, and surface mount stuff on wafer-thin boards. In short - not built to last. Nor is it designed to. That, of course, is just my opinion. And a cynical one, too. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Sun Nov 16 16:57:28 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <199711162257.RAA01774@zephyr.cacm.org> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:40:43 -0800, Mr. Willing made the following comments: > And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? > Or just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it > until I have a fair amount of time to spend with it) Pack it away, sealed up, and find another 3B1 to work on. I know a chap "down under" who has a LINC-8 in its original ply- wood crate stashed in a storage locker. The thing has not seen the light of day since it came off the line in 1968. It is one of 142 ever built. What do we do with that example? Leave it packed away? Fire it up for the edification of the locals (worldwide)? This is a knotty question, and one that harks somewhat to the same question asked by those who restore, and fly, antique aircraft. If we fly it, there's always the possibility that we might have a failure and the example (artifact) may be destroyed - if we don't, we're ignoring the essential beauty and function of the design. I, offhand, am tempted to say "park the craft" and find another one that's a bit more beat up. Restore that one, and drive it to your heart's content. But save the "factory original" one - like an old Tucker. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Sun Nov 16 17:07:12 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Accumulation Squad Message-ID: <199711162307.SAA01783@zephyr.cacm.org> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:59:57 -0600, "Uncle Roger" remarked in our collective presence: > As for me, there is currently [...] a Data General One & a Mac Plus > in the dining room, [and a list to be envious of if you collect > microcomputers!] It looks like it's confession time here. The "no computers in the dining room" is silly, at best. At this moment, I'm typing away on my Linux box in the dining-room looking at least 10 computers, not counting the micro I'm writing this on. There are another 4 in the kitchen behind me, two of which have seen power this weekend. (6 of the dining-room ones saw power over the weekend.) Rules are made to be broken. Computers, of course, fit anywhere you can find space for them. Even big ones. The bathroom, though, is straight out. Too humid. Before some wise-$@# decides to have at me for typing on a "modern" machine, let me remind him that even I have to pay the electric utility from time to time. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Nov 16 17:10:49 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <346F4720.60732039@cnct.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116151049.0364e8f0@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:18 PM 11/16/97 -0500, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >The marching blocks is almost always a sign of a serious motherboard >problem. One of my three suffers from it, so it's set aside for parts. >Unless that machine was shipped without an OS preinstall, which would >make it unique in my experience. Actually, (if memory serves) from the time when the computer store I was in was a dealer for them, they did *not* come with the OS preinstalled. There were rather lenghty debates at the time over if we would charge for loading it up before delivery. >It's well worth spending time with. A fairly unique user interface over >Unix, a fine 68010 CPU. The case design I still consider one of the >sexiest _ever_ put on the market. Admittedly, the built-in 1200 baud >modem is pretty well a lost cause. True on all count... Altho I think one of the things that really killed it was the bit-mapped video sub-system that required the CPU to do all the screen work. >If the OS level isn't at least 3.0, the disks are fairly useless, though >some of the documentation may still be usable. There were some missteps >in integrating the Convergent Technologies kernel with the AT&T stuff. The disks are labeled as v3.5 >If you do get it to boot, there is a nice little Easter Egg invoked by >the command ".!." from a shell prompt. That's dot-bang-dot. It'll give >a list of the folks at AT&T, Convergent and Alloy who were involved in >the project. Some of whom I worked with or otherwise met in the early >90's at Unisys at the old Convergent campus in San Jose, though most had >gone on to other companies. I like it... >And if you're interested, I may be able to supply a DOS-73 card -- I've >got a couple I'm not using much -- not much runs these days on an 8086 >with 512K and Hercules graphics. That might make for some interesting tinkering... >If you don't get it to boot and you have the later keyboard (with slots >to take function key labels) I'd be interested in the keyboard at least, >as those are not as common as the older keyboards I have -- the change >was made not long before AT&T bailed out of the project. Boot or not (and I suspect it will) it will have a home in the collection. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From wpe at interserv.com Sun Nov 16 17:10:54 1997 From: wpe at interserv.com (will emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... References: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <346F7D7D.79DDD676@interserv.com> James Willing wrote: > You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas... > > In the last few days the collection received an AT&T UNIX PC (aka > 7300, > 3b1) in extremely good condition. It arrived with all of the original > > docs, software, and mouse. The docs were unwrapped , and the mouse > was in > its original foam packing. "Kind of nice when someone packs things > away > properly" I thought. > > Well, its been a bit busy around the garage the last couple of weeks, > so I > put the unit and its associated stuff on the shelf and covered it up > for a > time. > > Last night, while I was working on a notebook (yes, one of those > 'modern' > things) for one of my wife's friends, I decided to have another look > at the > UNIX PC while I was waiting for a disk scan to finish... > > Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check of the unit > (nothing > loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped > happily and started drawing little boxes on the screen as I recalled > it > doing when it was starting up... > > However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little boxes later, it > starts > to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a > prompt > of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy > drive > (it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is > looking for a floppy. > > Fine... so, I grab the binder containing the software distribution, > open it > up... > > All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it starts to dawn on > me, > that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind; > made > by the person who gave me the machine... "My father bought it for his > company, read the manuals and realized that he had no idea what he was > > doing..." > > I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was > released > (and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things, > open > the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put > it on > the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK! > > And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter > up? Or > just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it > until I > have a fair amount of time to spend with it) > > No flame wars please, just the random philosophical question... > > -jim > > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 IMHOP, Crank it up! Otherwise, it might as well be an empty shell! Nobody asked, just my opinion....... Will From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Nov 16 12:42:55 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: References: <199711161846.KAA06056@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <199711162338.SAA09221@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Zane and everyone! :) > I've got to agree with the comments about the multitude of IBM PC clones, > not much in the way of classics there. One day I'll probably add a IBM PC > to my collection when I find one in good shape, but that would be about the > only PC clone I'm interested in adding to my collection. PC's are just to > common, and they don't really have anything that sets them apart. Uh huh...There are interesting features and quirky features. Zeniths used diagnostic ROM and telltale LED's plus each LED for voltages. During the bootup that goes out for each test. Neat feature and should be included in lots of clones as well. And interesting feature that I have not seen much in other PC's is Philips series, this ROM has a GOOD feature where you can boot off different drives sizes in either physical 0 and 1 drive. Tandy slimline series like 486 but I have dunno about 386 series, had a bios when selected can autosense the IDE hd's specs on the go at startup and also it has user defineable specs. That is real early than lot of pcs until very recently. Yes, all of these are now 10 years old machines now. Rainbow machine is very quirky demanding weird hardware and quirky disks in both format and hardsectored. :( Very little known motherboards that has POST code display on motherboard is Cateeth (read up for about 7 years back in Byte's starts with Portelle, I'm poor with names usually or similar) and old Dell's, another weird feature on Wyse 286 that can show time and date, mhz display like 8mhz, 12mhz and backlighted! :) IBM produced excellent PS/2 '87 era series that can be ripped apart with bare hands except for motherboard and PSU screws. Your comments about intersting OSes in roms and such dual CPUs snipped. Yup, that is real interesting. > The other reason I collect classic computers is to play with their OS's. > Well, it wasn't till about '91 with OS/2 1.3 that the PC even had an > acceptable OS. Although CP/M running native on a Pentium 133 is pretty > cool, and fast! By collecting Non-PC's there a tons of OS's to play with. > > So while there are a tiny handfull of computers less than 10 years old that > I might term classic, I totally agree with the more than 10 years old > definition. As for historical significance, bah, what a crock. I don't > consider historical significance a requirement or of importance when it > comes to collecting classic computers. I collect them because I enjoy > working with them, and find them interesting. To each collector have different favors. :) 486 is now nearing 10year mark FWIW and 386 is long past that mark as I specilize in DOS machines and keeping a lookout for older one very close to my area around here. Any good place to try? Flea Market seems to turn up nothing, have not tried those Goodwill and that red Army symbol. What else? > On a simular note, has anyone noticed how much MS Windoz machines are > becoming like the Apple Lisa? It's fast reaching the point where you by a > PC and run proprietary MS software on it. Kind of reminds me of how > basically the only software for the Lisa was to Office Suite. > > Zane Not really, Can use it for linux, BSD, DOS (oldie), SunOS and Netware. Troll From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 16 18:19:47 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <199711170019.AA01546@world.std.com> < What do we do with that example? Leave it packed away? Fire it acceptable OS. Although CP/M running native on a Pentium 133 is pretty <> cool, and fast! By collecting Non-PC's there a tons of OS's to play with CP/M-80 running on a 16mhz z180 is far more interesting. ;-) Allison From gram at cnct.com Sun Nov 16 18:27:06 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED References: <199711162250.RAA01768@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: <346F8F5A.EDD051AC@cnct.com> Carl R. Friend wrote > Age, also, alone, does not make a classic. I doubt that the standard > run-of-the-mill '386 PeeCee will ever amount to anything except to, > perhaps, archaeologists who dig one out of a landfill. There were too > many of them made, and they were (are) regarded as "disposable". Look > at the construction - modern machines aren't made to be repaired any > more than a disposable cigarette lighter is made to be refilled. They > burn out, you toss' em, and buy another one. There are a few standouts in the genus. Notably to mind comes the NCR PC line, specifically the PC-812 and the PC-916 from the late '80s. Rugged construction and passive backplane -- the damned things just wouldn't die. Built in West Germany, I assume by retired Mercedes and Volkswagen technicians. Then NCR went to using mass-market OEM boards and the next thing you know they're bought by AT&T. And Zenith stands out, if only for their ability to always come up with a chassis uglier than their previous record, with nobody else even trying to compete. Yet their laptops generally looked good. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Nov 16 13:38:48 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <199711170019.AA01601@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711170034.TAA19027@mail.cgocable.net> > > Huh? Rainbot uses the somewhat unique format for the hard disk but sos did > many other of the time. The floppy is a soft sector single sided 96tpi > at 10 sectors per track that can be formatted on a PC with a good 1.2m > drive in 360k speed and with the correct formatter. OR a system with an > RX50 drive and a 1793 floppy controller (CP/M-80 boxen). Wonderful! Now I know, but often I find those rainbow drives already gone bad. Bearings usually and can't pull off the hubs to rebuild the bearings. It shows up as groaning/grinding noise. > <> acceptable OS. Although CP/M running native on a Pentium 133 is pretty > <> cool, and fast! By collecting Non-PC's there a tons of OS's to play with > > CP/M-80 running on a 16mhz z180 is far more interesting. ;-) Well, where one can find that one??? > Allison Troll From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Nov 16 13:38:48 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <199711170019.AA01546@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711170034.TAA19030@mail.cgocable.net> Allison wrote: > SNip! > > The classic example of this and a conter arguement is the BeeGee Racing > aircraft. It was considered a widowmaker, as it nearly or did kill most > of the pilots that flew it!. A replica was made and the plane has been > flying for several years at airshows and doing remarkable acrobatics... > guess what it hasn't killed the pilot. What was lost was that it took a > healty respect and some knowledge of design and flight to figure out that > it wasn't so much the plane as the pilots that were the problem and they > have learned about the flight characteristics of a plane that was deemed > unflyable. Not to mention seeing a piece of flying history debunked. It was actually the profile of the wing is what caused pilots deaths, after that they found that too experimenal so a different profile was used instead when that BeeGee became more safer to have. I'm into it, just reading up. :) Snip! > With some exception cars and place can be preserved where some parts of > computers must be exercised or potentially fail. The other issue is > this may not even be a working example at this time. Good idea to use them from time to time to keep it happy. Especially those capacitors. > It's one thing when it's the last one, another when there are more to see. True! Troll From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Nov 16 18:53:31 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue Squad In-Reply-To: <199711150232.AA02835@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117115331.00a16690@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 09:32 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: >I was in a computer room at dec when a power failure hit. Imagine 30 >RA81s and 82s plus two 8650s going silent. In my computer room the silence is punctuated by the very loud sound of our fire dampers dropping and the Operations Manager (ie me) saying something to the effect of "golly gosh" :-). We've recently gone up market and have 60 odd minutes of UPS, so the only problem is my workstations crashing.... >The lastime I heard that >deafining silence the engine on my plane stopped in the air! It's not the >loud but the sudden lack of it. I'm almost too afraid to ask about the plane problem, but fill us in! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Sun Nov 16 19:15:52 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <199711162257.RAA01774@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117121552.00a2ddb0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 05:57 PM 11/16/97 -0500, Carl R. Friend wrote: > I know a chap "down under" who has a LINC-8 in its original ply- >wood crate stashed in a storage locker. The thing has not seen the >light of day since it came off the line in 1968. It is one of 142 >ever built. OK, that'll probably be Max Burnet who up until recently worked for Digital. I've actually seen this particular system (in its crate). The story as I remember it was that it was shipped to CSR? in New Zealand (the government research organization) but never even unpacked. Max found out about it several years ago and had it shipped back to Australia. He installed a Plexiglass window and some lights into the crate for viewing. > What do we do with that example? Leave it packed away? Fire it >up for the edification of the locals (worldwide)? I think fire it up would be rather literal, ie it'd probably catch fire. To get it to run would require a complete refurbishment. I'm fairly sure that Max plans to keep it in the crate and restore a different system. I've cc'd this to Max using the last e-mail address I had for him. Perhaps we can get him to subscribe as he's probably the most informed old DEC restorer/historian in Australia... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From groberts at mitre.org Sun Nov 16 21:06:23 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: Powells Bookstore (was: Anyone have a copy of this book) & VIC Kernel In-Reply-To: <0a0f93223000fb7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116220623.011645bc@mail90> At 07:21 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote: >Also, for those interested, I finished my VIC-20 Kernel documentation >project. Right now, I have completely recompilable source code for the >Commodore VIC-20 kernel ROM. It took me over 2 years, part time, but it >works. congrat's. any plans to post this on the Web somewhere? you sent me an early version but it was in a form not easily fed to my 6502 assembler. still interested in seeing how this all came out. tx. - glenn roberts From william at ans.net Sun Nov 16 21:11:51 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <199711162250.RAA01768@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: > Age, also, alone, does not make a classic. I doubt that the standard > run-of-the-mill '386 PeeCee will ever amount to anything except to, > perhaps, archaeologists who dig one out of a landfill. There were too > many of them made, and they were (are) regarded as "disposable". On the other hand, the "PeeCee" is destined to decome a classic, just because of the huge impact they have made. > Such was not always the case. Pre-PeeCee, machines were usually > constructed very carefully. I don't doubt for a minute that engineers > in the early '60s envisioned their creations happily hummimg away > in the year 2000 - the boxes were built to last. I am a little uneasy with this. True, most machines in the 1960s were built like tanks - they _had_ to be, or they would not last in the marketplace. Buying a computer back then was a very big deal, not like today. Today, the cost is so low on small systems that managers do not have to worry about buying a dud - if they do, no big deal. ANS purchased some really bad TI laptops, and we are regretting them. Did anyone lose credibility because of a few thousand dollars worth of junky computers? Of course not. For bigger things, the story is much different. If a manager purchased many tens of thousands of dollars worth of junk, they may not get thier Christmas bonus. I think they would look at quality much more closely with real money on the line. Just look at the quality of Sun equipment - out of the box everything will work, nothing will be banged up, and the thing will compute forever - when you pay $50,000 for a midrange Ultra, you buy the quality. Now look at a $1500 PeeCee and you will see the difference. If Sun ever made a $1500 Ultra, I think it would not be very far off from PeeCee quality. > Pop the hood on the > latest thing to come down the 'pike - it's all ASICs, custom silicon, > and surface mount stuff on wafer-thin boards. In short - not built > to last. Nor is it designed to. Why is surface mount, etc., not mean quality? It is just a different way to manufacture electronics. After all, the Cray X/MP and Y/MPs are built with ASICs, custom silicon, and surface mount stuff on wafer-thin boards. Modern stuff would be repairable if their was a market to repair it. Just like the TV repair business, the home computer repair business has not been around for a good 15 years. William Donzelli william@ans.net From bmpete at swbell.net Sun Nov 16 21:14:36 1997 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <199711170034.TAA19030@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199711170034.TAA19030@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <346fb40f.23886168@mail.swbell.net> My wife's grandfather owned a 1956 Buick Roadmaster, fire-engine red with very low milage. I would look at in his garage, ('bout 1968) but he hadn't driven it for years. When he died, my wife's father got the car and drove it to his house, a trip of about 40 miles, and parked it in front of his house. The next morning, there were numerous puddles of various liquids on the ground. Every seal, gasket, or whatever, was shot! The car died from lack of use. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From william at ans.net Sun Nov 16 21:47:22 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <199711162257.RAA01774@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: > What do we do with that example? Leave it packed away? Fire it > up for the edification of the locals (worldwide)? This is a knotty > question, and one that harks somewhat to the same question asked by > those who restore, and fly, antique aircraft. If we fly it, there's > always the possibility that we might have a failure and the example > (artifact) may be destroyed - if we don't, we're ignoring the essential > beauty and function of the design. There has been a holy war about this in the warbird (antique military aircraft) field since day one. Of course, for computers the threat of disaster is much less, with the exception of disk drives. In any case... For those that take historic technology seriously, several rules stand out amongst all others. One is that the care and condition of the artifacts comes first in any decision. This means that artifacts should never be placed in a position where they can be damaged. Storage is the main concern for this point - in the case of the LINC-8 in question, leaving it sealed in the crate leaves too many variables as unknowns. Perhaps something is living in the crate, maybe moisture is leaking in, or some plastic wrap is decaying the paint. Standard museum practice for something of this size and importance would be to open the crate and remove the computer. The crate, of course, would be saved (or at least documented). Packaging is often not made for long term storage, and can often hurt the contents within. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Nov 16 16:57:31 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: References: <199711162250.RAA01768@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: <199711170353.WAA23773@mail.cgocable.net> > > Age, also, alone, does not make a classic. I doubt that the standard > > run-of-the-mill '386 PeeCee will ever amount to anything except to, > > perhaps, archaeologists who dig one out of a landfill. There were too > > many of them made, and they were (are) regarded as "disposable". > > On the other hand, the "PeeCee" is destined to decome a classic, just > because of the huge impact they have made. Thanks to the internet, and freely Linux/BSD, and large part of M$, so called PeeCees' are getting plenty by the numbers becasuse cost have fallen and a decent quality one can be had for 1.5k CDN ready to roll package + friendly support with some s/w from private retailers. And loads of shady retailers are out there. But if you take time to sniff out reliable retailers, you win in the end. Snip! > I am a little uneasy with this. True, most machines in the 1960s were > built like tanks - they _had_ to be, or they would not last in the > marketplace. Buying a computer back then was a very big deal, not like > today. Today, the cost is so low on small systems that managers do not > have to worry about buying a dud - if they do, no big deal. ANS > purchased some really bad TI laptops, and we are regretting them. Did > anyone lose credibility because of a few thousand dollars worth of junky > computers? Of course not. For bigger things, the story is much different. > If a manager purchased many tens of thousands of dollars worth of junk, > they may not get thier Christmas bonus. I think they would look at > quality much more closely with real money on the line. Right. Now no one but very few dared to repair digital boards at component level. :( Except for monitors, they still require repairs. I do not needlessly toss boards out if I can fix 'em and even do some UNauthorized modifications on them. One example: swapped out the both 386sx 20 and osc for 25mhz parts on a LTE 386s/20 successfully. One thing, this is ONLY comsumer-quality computer using aero-space technologies. One-piece fold up motherboard via flexiable flat cables as part of PCB material, You know, that rigid PCB board with flex-cables enbedded in it. Closest sibling that uses similar chipsets is SLT 386s/20. (AHHHHHHHHH! others runs out for their life from a true h/w hacker.) :) > Just look at the quality of Sun equipment - out of the box everything > will work, nothing will be banged up, and the thing will compute forever - > when you pay $50,000 for a midrange Ultra, you buy the quality. Now look > at a $1500 PeeCee and you will see the difference. If Sun ever made a > $1500 Ultra, I think it would not be very far off from PeeCee quality. Agreed with this point, but I can't see point of ripping too much strictly to keep investors happy these days. :( This is my pick bone. RIght now too many are cutting to keep investors bubbling happy. Seez! They can't make more $ if jobs are cut. They get $ but the $ flows to everywhere else, opening up jobs in turn and incrases in next investing in the end. Now it's matter of short term instead of long-term. > > Pop the hood on the > > latest thing to come down the 'pike - it's all ASICs, custom silicon, > > and surface mount stuff on wafer-thin boards. In short - not built > > to last. Nor is it designed to. > > Why is surface mount, etc., not mean quality? It is just a different way > to manufacture electronics. After all, the Cray X/MP and Y/MPs are built > with ASICs, custom silicon, and surface mount stuff on wafer-thin boards. If maker followed strict control and insure compatiblity they tend to be reliable and work with most things. There are no good ones besides very few brands and as far as I know that you can buy loose boards is Asus with that compareable quality. > Modern stuff would be repairable if their was a market to repair it. Just > like the TV repair business, the home computer repair business has not > been around for a good 15 years. Truth. But cost of new parts is too low to cover still increasing wages and parts to repair 'em SO, users just chuck parts out for new one if something breaks after warrenty or upgrades. New age version of swapper-fixuppers, dumb people comes out in that end, and few smarts in the end and too many average people. Sorry but I had to say that. In past, before 80's there were lot of smart people who appreciate quality and have knowledge but right now we're allowing requirements relax in education systems and those who can't find jobs because some future employers have few people needed in key positions and have technologies to be productive and have better machines. We're should have kept the silicon technologies also keep some key manufacturing sites free of those silicon and bring back several labour intersive manaufacturing and depend less on technologies that uses semi for most applications and they can be blown to bits with back EMF from atomic blast. Very distressing. > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Troll From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 17 01:13:55 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED References: Message-ID: <346FEEAE.EB21FD7F@batelco.com.bh> Well, I started it.... I'm going to have to take all the blame.... William Donzelli wrote: > OK, I am probably going to get yelled at... > > > Okay.... recently, there's been lots of "off-topic" stuff going on here > > about computers... but I think that it's not "off-topic." > > In my opinion it is. There are lots of good, smart people on this list > that can help everyone with modern(ish) equipment, but there are also lots > of them on other lists and USENET. > > > if you remember, in the "welcome" message, it > > said that it was hard to state the definiton of a classic... but 10 > > years or older would do. > > >The definition is no doubt flawed, but trying to fix it may prove to be > >impossible. It is the classic cats vs. dogs argument - no one will win, or > >have any real valid points to argue with. When does a machine become a > >classic? Probably when a bunch of us computer geeks get together and ask > >"Remember the Unitari PDQ-8/w? Now that was a good machine! They don't > >make machines like that anymore!". > Okay, that's actually a real good thing to say... WE decide what's a classic > as we discover "new" (To our eyes) models, and discard others (IE possibly > the PIIs well never become classics,) > >It is probably best to stay with what we have - it can be bent as needed. > But we can try..... > >>Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer > >>which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer > >> market and has historic signifiance, OR is 10 years old or older." > > >The problem is that that means just about any machine over 3 months old. > Historical signifance? > >> The > >> one evedeint place that requires revsion is the "historical signifiacne" > >> but I'm not sure how to include that while still aknowladgeing the > >> presence of many of the best machines and componets that did indeed fail > > >Many machines that did fail were historically significant - Xerox springs > >to mind. > Exactly... the "historically significant part was also my "safeguard" . > >Also, sometimes a whole class of machines is significant, and sometimes > >just a few instances (Smalltalk influence leaking out now!) are. The IBM > >RT was a bomb, but a hundred or so of them did a great deal to society. > >Another example would be the 68000 developement systems that Apple used to > >make the Lisa (and Macintosh) - again, the class of hardware may only be a > >footnote, but the few actual machines shaped the industry forever. > See what I mean about the "historical signifiance"? > Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 17 01:13:52 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED References: Message-ID: <346FEEA8.34A068A4@batelco.com.bh> Good idea.... out-of-production... but now that I think of it, that can also use some work.... Windows NT 3.51's out of production... and so are 300-400 Mhz Alphas!!! How about "out -of-production by 2 phases*" would that work? *A "phase" is the time when the product is used, IE Windows 3.1 is outdated by 1 phase, as there was one major product that changed the way that we worked, and it was aimed at the same market as Win 3.1 was, Brett wrote: > Well Tim (and you others 8-) > > We do not need a new definition. Time will include all machine and > software - eventually. The limit of ten years was originally imposed > to keep the IBM-PCer out. Not that that is a good thing - but to reduce > the noise level. I don't know if this is right tho - but I do know > that the original PC is in the range now. > > Maybe another list for Not-So Classic Computers should be set up - but > the people wouldn't talk about the stuff we doo - it would gravitate > to - "Why can't I get Win95 to save my comm settings??" Well I DO NOT > know and I DO NOT CARE 8-) > > Let's keep it on out-of-production equipment - ok? > > BC From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 17 01:15:04 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:38 2005 Subject: New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still! References: <199711161733.AA20467@world.std.com> Message-ID: <346FEEF7.91B29696@batelco.com.bh> Speaking of Alpha's, is there any chance that I can put my own together? And I agree... it's just plain stupid, and I hate Intel anyway... kind of like in the movie "First Knight" where the former deffender becomes the enemy.... or Darth Vader....... but still, I am on the side of clone makers, and, for high-end, DEC. Intel's doing something strange.... I think that the Pentium II is just something to keep clone makers behind, Intel supporters happy, and anti-DEC bussinesses a new cause, and is just a "in the mean time" solution to Merced and the P8 (which I've heard is a LONG ways away) Allison J Parent wrote: > > Lessee, wait a few years to get what's available now. Excuse me I must > be missing something here as doesn't business have to go on in the mean > time??? Talk about pinning hopes on the sky. > > This is straight out of the early micro years when products would be hyped > only for the company to go bust before anyone would see it or worse deliver > it years late and working poorly(sorta like WIN95!). > > Allison From dastar at wco.com Sun Nov 16 22:22:28 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <346F48D5.D766C3EB@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, HOTZE wrote: > like 1991-93... arguebly, early Pentiums (60, 66 Mhz) could be classics, > as they steped into a new era (superscaler arceticture) for the > mass-production market even though the Pentium chips wern't even on the > market until mid-1993... if you remember, in the "welcome" message, it > said that it was hard to state the definiton of a classic... but 10 > years or older would do. I do not wish to offend the owner, but they > are one person, and they can make mistakes... and together, as a group, > the chances of making an accurate definiton are smaller with us. > Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer > which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer > market and has historic signifiance, OR is 10 years old or older." The > one evedeint place that requires revsion is the "historical signifiacne" > but I'm not sure how to include that while still aknowladgeing the > presence of many of the best machines and componets that did indeed fail > in the process... but at least Wang's did eventually fall.... I can't > even rememeber all of the problems that they had... I'd hate for this discussion to move into explicitly allowing anything earlier than ten years, because the next thing you know, discussions of contemporary hardware issues will creep in (they already have, and yes I'm guilty of it too), and then what you end up with is the classic hardware discussions being drowned out, and there goes classiccmp. Stick with the 10 year rule. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From dastar at wco.com Sun Nov 16 22:33:20 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, James Willing wrote: > And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or > just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I > have a fair amount of time to spend with it) This is always such the dilemma. The question you must ask yourself is, what is to be accomplished by keeping everything in its sealed state? Is it going to be important to future generations to know what a brand spanking new AT&T UNIX PC looked like out of the box? Perhaps. What is the value of keeping the seals intact? Monetary or historical? Its the same reason that collectibles such as comic books or trading cards are more valuable in their original sealed package. Unfortunately, that reason eludes me. I guess it just means it is still in some immaculate state, untouched by dirty human hands. I think it's definitely an irrational emotional issue, rather than a logical one. Jim, I have exactly what you do: an AT&T UNIX PC 7300 with all the manuals and software, including the original packaging. I also have the printer that came with it, plus the owner's original notebooks with notes galore, some software he downloaded off of BBS', everything. But my system was used for a while and thus boots up and is actually quite usable (and very neat!) If you don't want to open yours up, tuck it back away. Mine will suffice as an operating example while yours will demonstrate one in pristine condition. I guess in the end yours will be appraised for more than mine :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Sun Nov 16 22:42:05 1997 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971116224201.007f0b90@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu> At 08:40 AM 11/16/97 -0800, James Willing wrote: (AT&T 3B1 found...) >However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little boxes later, it starts >to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a prompt >of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy drive >(it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is >looking for a floppy. Is the hard disk spinning up? I purchased two "new" (in the box with shrink-wrapped software) UNIX PCs about a year ago. One of the internal hard disks (a Micropolis 20 MB 1/2 height ST-506 interface MFM unit) did not spin up, presumably due to stiction or a relative thereof. The computer with this disk exhibited the behavior that you describe. The other machine started up a "Welcome to the UNIX PC" application that prompted me to insert the first disk of the installation media. On the systems that I have (1 MB RAM, 20 MB HD 7300s), the system software was not preinstalled, presumably to allow the version of the OS that was shipped with the machines to be changed easily. If you have opened the media, try booting the machine with the diagnostic disk. If this works, the hard disk is likely to be the culprit. As Ward Griffiths mentioned, the 3B1 uses ST-506 interface MFM disks, but it can only access 67 MB without hardware modifications. There are utilities on the diagnostic disk that you can use to test, format, partition, and make filesystems on the hard disk. If you can't get the hard disk working with these utilities, replacing it isn't too difficult. The ST-251-1 in my UNIX PC isn't original, but neither are the GNU utilities, csh, and Perl that I have installed on it. If you're fortunate enough to have the (somewhat rare) Ethernet card or the (somewhat more rare) TCP/IP software for it, be sure to check out the 3B1 FAQ before putting it on a network. There are some major security holes, especially in the windowing environment. Brian Stuart has a lot of good information (and the comp.sys.3b1 FAQ) on the Web at http://colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/3b1/3b1.html . >I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was released >(and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things, open >the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put it on >the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK! I purchased mine from a guy in Chicago who had a warehouse full of them, new in the box. I doubt that many individuals buy computers and put them away without using them (except for collectors), but many businesses like to have spares on hand. Additionally, a lot of new "obsolete" machines get written off and sold as scrap. I don't know, but I suspect that this was the story of my machines. If you would like to try the diagnostics without opening the software, let me know, and I'll get you a copy of the diagnostics disk (from release 3.51). -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 16 22:58:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <199711170458.AA05268@world.std.com> Along the same lines.... While digging through one of my boxes of stuff for a part I found a partial S100 Jade Double density disk controller kit unassembled. Of course I remember why I had it, the person that gave it to me back in '82 wasn't up for the assembly task, raided it for parts and gave me the remains. At the time I wasn't interested in getting a 1793 based controller going as I was getting 765As for free and all the assistance from it's designers I could use. Well guess what. I'm 98% of the way through assembling it. Then I have to assemble the source code as there are no disks but lots of listings in the manuals. It's z80 based in that it has its own CPU as a bus slave. Should be interesting to get going. Oh, all the missing parts are from my collection and a few are date coded before the board! It was all I had of some parts. Allison From transit at primenet.com Sun Nov 16 23:48:59 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: Model 100, again In-Reply-To: <199711151831.KAA23150@mx2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, PG Manney wrote: > >Ok, I still haven't been able to find out what's wrong with the LCD in my > >Tandy Model 100 (the rest of the machine works fine, as I was able to tell > >by blind-writing BASIC progs that beep the speaker). > > Just type PRINT CHR$(7), which will process ASCII BEL (Control G). Sure, I can do that and it works, which makes this all the more frustrating . . .I did have a practical use for this machine (taking notes in research libraries, or accessing e-mail on the road). Is it worth tring to fix? From jrice at texoma.net Sun Nov 16 23:59:53 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: Model 100, again References: Message-ID: <346FDD58.51F11608@texoma.net> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, PG Manney wrote: > > > >Ok, I still haven't been able to find out what's wrong with the > LCD in my > > >Tandy Model 100 (the rest of the machine works fine, as I was able > to tell > > >by blind-writing BASIC progs that beep the speaker). > > > > Just type PRINT CHR$(7), which will process ASCII BEL (Control G). > > Sure, I can do that and it works, which makes this all the more > frustrating . . .I did have a practical use for this machine (taking > notes in research libraries, or accessing e-mail on the road). > > Is it worth tring to fix? Yes it is if you can find another machine with a good idsplay and a trashed mb or keyboard for example. RS wants $224 for a new LCD board. I had one of my machines LCD die and I bought another with a dead mb for $25 and ended up with a lot of spare memory as well as a LCD. Good Luck James From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Nov 17 00:14:18 1997 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: For Trade: (New) Inmac 16 sector 5 1/4" floppy disks Message-ID: <3481df6e.531360065@hoser> I need some 5 1/4" 10-sector floppies for my various "classic/antique" machines. I thought that was what I was buying in a recent on-line auction. What I ended up with was 16-sector floppies. I don't even know what uses these; certainly nothing I have. Accordingly, I'm offering to trade for 10-sector versions. These are Inmac DS,DD, 16 hard sector 5 1/4" disks with envelopes. Quantity 30 (3 boxes of 10). Two boxes are still factory shrink-wrapped. The 3rd was until I opened it to verify that I'd gotten the wrong thing; none were used. Make a trade offer, or alternatively, does anyone know where and how much I might be able to just *buy* some 10-sectors? -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Nov 16 19:32:28 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: Model 100, again In-Reply-To: <346FDD58.51F11608@texoma.net> Message-ID: <199711170627.BAA13602@mail.cgocable.net> > Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, PG Manney wrote: > > > > > >Ok, I still haven't been able to find out what's wrong with the > > LCD in my > > > >Tandy Model 100 (the rest of the machine works fine, as I was able > > to tell > > > >by blind-writing BASIC progs that beep the speaker). > > > > > > Just type PRINT CHR$(7), which will process ASCII BEL (Control G). > > > > Sure, I can do that and it works, which makes this all the more > > frustrating . . .I did have a practical use for this machine (taking > > notes in research libraries, or accessing e-mail on the road). > > > > Is it worth tring to fix? > > Yes it is if you can find another machine with a good idsplay and a > trashed mb or keyboard for example. RS wants $224 for a new LCD board. > I had one of my machines LCD die and I bought another with a dead mb for > $25 and ended up with a lot of spare memory as well as a LCD. > > Good Luck > > James Wait a min, why not do more investigating to find out WHY that display poofed? I'm curious, is the wirings all good, no cracks in "printed ink" flat cables or is it metallic flat cables? There must be a inverter to generate bias to make LCD work somewhere either on LCD or on mb, did you turn the contrast knob to make sure? This adjusts the bias level and could be bad! The interconnection between actual LCD glass and the PCB is not that hard to take apart to clean and easy to align together and screw them back together? Flex that cables when viewing the display, if it flickers, you spotted the guilty child in cookie jar. :) Sometimes can catch bad solder connections. Also press firmly on backside to see if you can make better connections between them but yet not to break glass, the thickness is like top quality wine especially globe. It's best to investigate the display before swapping because they're so expensive and so valueable! By the way, do you still have both bad MB and bad displays? That I might able to repair as long as that display is not smashed? Troll From starling at umr.edu Mon Nov 17 00:44:29 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: Model 100, again In-Reply-To: <199711170627.BAA13602@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 17, 97 01:32:28 am Message-ID: <199711170644.AAA05152@saucer.cc.umr.edu> This is really kind of a no-brainer tip and hardly worth posting to the mailing list... But it got my M100 working after I freaked out for an evening about it: When I got my M100, I couldn't get anything to display on the screen. I freaked out and popped her open. I twiddled with a few things, but nothing seemed to matter. Then I gave her a nice new set of batteries and it all was happy. I thought I'd put fresh ones in, but apparantly they weren't fresh enough to drive the LCD. chris starling starling@umr.edu From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 17 01:13:20 1997 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <199711170034.TAA19030@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Allison wrote: > > > SNip! > > > > The classic example of this and a conter arguement is the BeeGee Racing > > aircraft. It was considered a widowmaker, as it nearly or did kill most > > of the pilots that flew it!. A replica was made and the plane has been > > flying for several years at airshows and doing remarkable acrobatics... > > guess what it hasn't killed the pilot. What was lost was that it took a > > healty respect and some knowledge of design and flight to figure out that > > it wasn't so much the plane as the pilots that were the problem and they > > have learned about the flight characteristics of a plane that was deemed > > unflyable. Not to mention seeing a piece of flying history debunked. > > It was actually the profile of the wing is what caused pilots deaths, > after that they found that too experimenal so a different profile was > used instead when that BeeGee became more safer to have. I'm into > it, just reading up. :) Quite possibly this was a factor; however, any aircraft so short coupled as the BeeGee was bound to display a fair degree of directional and attitudinal instability that would make it a widow maker. - don > Snip! > > > With some exception cars and place can be preserved where some parts of > > computers must be exercised or potentially fail. The other issue is > > this may not even be a working example at this time. > Good idea to use them from time to time to keep it happy. > Especially those capacitors. > > > It's one thing when it's the last one, another when there are more to see. > True! > > Troll > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Nov 16 21:11:27 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: Model 100, again In-Reply-To: <199711170644.AAA05152@saucer.cc.umr.edu> References: <199711170627.BAA13602@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 17, 97 01:32:28 am Message-ID: <199711170806.DAA22898@mail.cgocable.net> > > This is really kind of a no-brainer tip and hardly worth posting to the > mailing list... But it got my M100 working after I freaked out for an > evening about it: > > > When I got my M100, I couldn't get anything to display on the screen. I > freaked out and popped her open. I twiddled with a few things, but > nothing seemed to matter. Then I gave her a nice new set of batteries > and it all was happy. I thought I'd put fresh ones in, but apparantly > they weren't fresh enough to drive the LCD. OOoooh, you scared us! :) Did you used those stupid "renewal" kind? This Renewal and even rechargeables does not give oomph as well. Some really prefer very strong batteries like Energizer, Duracell and compareable quality $1 stuff. It takes a while to find cheap ones that does equally as good ones. I did find specific brand that does pretty good. Racvac, it have no punch at all bec it's carbon based technology and it's good for some other things. Did this M100 needs 4 AA cells? That gives about exactly 6v for that 5v regulator and LCD stuff to work if cells drops past about 1.1-1.2v the usually LCD fades out then crashes the machine because it's 4 cell design. If Tandy designed 5 or 6 cells for M100 years ago, it will run past 1v per cell and extends the running time! Fresh batteries are just about over 1.5volts each. Similar topic on voltage changes: my hearing aids uses those 1.5v 765 type. When that cell start to die, I start to hear distorted sound and general fading (twirls the bitty tiny volume knob) when voltage drops past 1.2v or so then dying to silence. Don't have the cell with me when outwhere nearest any suitable resellers. If someone wonders, typical hearing aids sometimes helps hearing impaired but in my case, I'm profound deaf. I can only hear sounds and understand genernally different sounds (screaming, banging, engine purring and backfiring, baby crying, train tooting and such.) But not able to understand normal frenquencies like talking. But I assure all that I can hear the world around me going on. On this side, I saw one worst battery kind when I put 'em into flashlight, it lits up brightly, immiately fades out. (!). They're were new! "small voice tells me to stop this tattling and let relvent topic back on track"... Troll > > chris starling > starling@umr.edu > From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Nov 16 04:34:53 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: Model 100, again In-Reply-To: <199711170627.BAA13602@mail.cgocable.net> References: <346FDD58.51F11608@texoma.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971116043453.00b3c8a0@mail.northernway.net> At 01:32 AM 11/17/97 +0000, you wrote: >Wait a min, why not do more investigating to find out WHY that >display poofed? I'm curious, is the wirings all good, no cracks in >"printed ink" flat cables or is it metallic flat cables? There must >be a inverter to generate bias to make LCD work somewhere either on >LCD or on mb, did you turn the contrast knob to make sure? This >adjusts the bias level and could be bad! Jason, This is good advice, but: >The interconnection >between actual LCD glass and the PCB is not that hard to take apart >to clean and easy to align together and screw them back together? *If* the M100 display is similar to the Tandy 200 display, they are _not screwed together._ They are held together by a cheap pot-metal bracket with nothing but tabs pushed thru slots on the LCD controller PCB and then twisted. You will get 1, maybe two twists on each before they break. These tabs must be *firmly* twisted to gain enough pressure on the LCD for the pressure sensitive glass contacts to work. I had a badly misaligned T200 display that I attempted to realign... realignment is not as easy as it would seem, and yet on my 3rd attempt it was *perfectly* aligned. I had all of the tabs twisted back with decent pressure and it was still holding... then, alas, the *last* tab broke, and it was close to a corner, easily wiping out 10-15% of the display. It was already a lost cause so there was nothing to lose, but I speak from experience -- it's tough to bring these LCD's back from the dead. If anyone needs more support on T100/102/200's, I run a listserver that can be e-mailed at m100@list.northernway.net... You can subscribe by putting the word subscribe in the *** Subject: *** line of the message -- not the body... only the subject, and mailing it to: m100-request@list.northernway.net Need Help? Put the word help in the *** Subject *** line of the message, mail it to m100-request@list.northernway.net and a helpful message will be return-emailed to you. Still to hard? If you have a forms-capable browser, point it to: http://home.northernway.net/~zmerch/signupform.html and you can subscribe thru the web. Interested in Tandy 600's? I have a listserver at m600@list.northernway.net as well... replace a 1 with a 6 above and all of the above instructions will work. http://home.northernway.net/~zmerch/signupm600.html See you there! "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 17 10:38:09 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... References: Message-ID: <347072F0.583706D9@batelco.com.bh> Tony Duell wrote: > >I know what _I'd_ do. I'd power it up (after checking the PSU, etc), > >install the software, and enjoy it. You see, I collect computers because I > >enjoy using them, hacking them, figuring out how they work, programming > >them, interfacing them, etc. A computer which doesn't work (or which for > >whatever reason is never given the chance to work) is of no interest to > >me. Of course repairing computers is a major interest of mine, so > >non-working machines don't stay that way. > I have a non-working machine.... I like repairing, too... but I don't have the > parts to do so... can anyone ship an 8088 (For the ever-so-popular XT... my > personal favorite, as it holds the charastics of a modern PC aimed at the > average-Joe market)... processor only... I _might_ need a graphics board, I've > heard from Riccardo (He told me about the list) that they're integrated with > the parrall printer port... the CRT was also broken... having that sent in for > repairs to a guy I trust (I don't trust myself w/monitors)... I'd thought about > calling IBM tech support... giving them a BIG laugh... say that It's only > 1986.. .them saying that it's late '97.... > >I'd probably also unpack the disks (although as others have said, getting > >a copy from a friend with the same machine is also an option), read the > >manuals, etc > I would possibly make a photocopy of the manuals and read the copies, as you > might be concerned enough (I wouldn't care) to keep them in good shape.... > >I remember that at the HP calculator conference 5 years ago I bought an > >HP71 service manual. Now, this manual is not common, and it came in the > >original shrink-wrap. Having got it, I ripped off said shrink-wrap, opened > >the manual, and started reading. You see, I didn't buy the manual as an > >example of HP shrink-wrap. I bought it to learn about the HP71. And that's > >something you can only do when you've opened the manual. > EXACTLY!!!! There are people who collect baseball cards (Somehthing which > I DO NOT do) and leave them in the packaging.... they don't even know what > cards are inside.... for all they know, the information could lead them to > develop a new game.... or something... you neve know! I don't want crates of > unused things.... they never get shown, used, I'm in it for the FUN of using > computers... OSes, old drives, seeing old technologies... stuff like that... From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Nov 17 08:31:16 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives Message-ID: <9710178798.AA879806189@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > William Donzelli wrote: > > > says that they will last at least ten years. The best solution (other than > > mylar punched tape) is probably the older WORM drives (not MOs!), as they > > Purely out of morbid curiosity, has anybody ever considered making Tyvek > tape? The stuff is damned near impossible to tear and difficult even to > stretch enough to lose data. That is actually a very good idea. I shall dig out some tyvek samples and cut some inch-wide strips for initial tests. If this is OK, I shall contact the manufacturers. I'll post results here, but can't make any promises as to timescale. FWIW I kept some tyvek samples (from an office supplies catalogue) for use as gasket paper on my car. Works a treat on things like carburettors, gear levers, etc. Don't fancy trying it on cylinder heads, though... Philip. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Nov 17 09:22:15 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <01IQ40L4L6TU9ID7B8@cc.usu.edu> > Rainbow machine is very quirky demanding > weird hardware and quirky disks in both format and hardsectored. :( Bear in mind that from the perspective of us CP/M folks, demanding absolutely rigid hardware compatibility is quirky... > IBM produced > excellent PS/2 '87 era series that can be ripped apart with bare > hands except for motherboard and PSU screws. FWIW, my absolute favorite box of all time is the VAXstation 4000/60 or /96; you can get everything out of the box quickly with no tools. In contrast, it's only been in the last few years that I've gotten coordinated enough to keep from mutilating my knuckles every time I go into a VAXstation 2000... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Nov 17 09:26:40 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <01IQ40PEAY6K9ID7B8@cc.usu.edu> Allison wrote: > <> acceptable OS. Although CP/M running native on a Pentium 133 is pretty > <> cool, and fast! By collecting Non-PC's there a tons of OS's to play with > > CP/M-80 running on a 16mhz z180 is far more interesting. ;-) Bear in mind: - Z180s now do up to 33MHz - The average 128Kx8 15 ns SRAM - is fast enough to run at 33MHz with no wait states - contains enough on-board logic to do address decoding in a simple Z180 system Sigh; I see ads in Circuit Cellar for folks that take 68HC12s in surface-mount packages and mount them on an adapter board for folks that want through-hole parts. Anyone know of someone doing the same thing with either the Z182 (or, better yet, the Z195) or at least generic footprints of the appropriate size? Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Nov 17 10:49:04 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton??? My opinion In-Reply-To: <01IQ40L4L6TU9ID7B8@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117114904.00b07a90@mail.northernway.net> FWIW, here's my opinion on the "redefinition" as to what a classic is: I like it as it stands, but with a _little_ leeway. If some conversation pops up about the Atari Portfolio or another unique computer that's been around awhile, I would not mind seeing it (maybe even enjoy it!) Also, if the discussion is centered around emulators of classic machines, like things/hints/tips you do with the CoCo3 emulator on a Pentium, that's o.k. too _as long as_ the topic doesn't stray from the CoCo3 end of things... [[ Plug -- you can order the CoCo3 emulator (which runs *every* program I own as if it were a 8.9Mhz CoCo3) from Rick's Computer Enterprises. Rick's one helluva nice guy, and his e-mail address is: rcooper@kih.net. Browse http://www.voicenet.com/~swyss/cocoemul.html for more info! ]] [[ another plug -- the CoCo2 emulator is free! ]] Udder dan dat, methinks the 10 year limit should stay. Just MHO, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 17 14:15:44 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED References: <346F48D5.D766C3EB@batelco.com.bh> <199711161846.KAA06056@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3470A5EE.E9AF5229@batelco.com.bh> Okay... now, I believe that the 10 year definiton is fairly correct... what was significant about the AT was the AT sized motherboards.... which was a standard until about a year or two ago with ATX... smaller space.... but anyway, I think that we should say "10 years or older... but bendably, as age is not the true determining factor of the making of a classic" or something to that effect, as to aknowledge that it's not written in stone.... I've found a solution to the "To many clones problem", use (1) the first (2) The one that took full advantage (3) The ideal example of what the rest were like. Frank McConnell wrote: > HOTZE wrote: > > [...] if you remember, in the "welcome" message, it > > said that it was hard to state the definiton of a classic... but 10 > > years or older would do. I do not wish to offend the owner, but they > > are one person, and they can make mistakes... and together, as a group, > > the chances of making an accurate definiton are smaller with us. > > Right. Not too many people are going to agree on this. There's > probably a few people out there who think the Atari Portfolio is a > classic and I think it's under 10 years old. The IBM PC/AT is 13 > years old now but I have difficulty thinking of it as a classic and I > really couldn't care less. > > But the 10 year rule is simple and not without precedent (it's roughly > the way other things are judged "antique" -- if I remember correctly > the "magic number" is 100 years for furniture and housewares and 20 > years for automobiles). That's why we have it, we know it's not > perfect but it does provide a clear cutoff. > > (Aside to You Know Who You Are: knock it off, OK?) > > > Possibly (out for MUCH revision...) is the definition "Any computer > > which has aged sufficently to be considered "outdated" by the computer > > market and has historic signifiance, OR is 10 years old or older." The > > one evedeint place that requires revsion is the "historical signifiacne" > > Does it? The problem is that inside 10 years it's very difficult to > judge historical significance. > > And just because it's older than 10 years doesn't make finding the > historical significance any easier. I'm hard pressed to think of what > was significant about the PC/AT, as near as I could tell at the time > it was put to work as a bigger faster IBM PC, still running all the > same old MS-DOS applications, still one at a time. And from > conversations I've had with folks who were doing Unix stuff on the > 80286 then, they didn't think 80286 protected mode was progress w/r/t > the PDP-11. > > Well, what did the PC/AT have that the PC/XT didn't? 1.2MB > minifloppies (although I saw those retrofit onto XT-class PCs), 16-bit > slots, a cascaded interrupt controller to handle the additional > interrupt request lines...and the A20 gate that let you get at another > little chunk of RAM up above the 1MB boundary while still in real > mode. Hmm. How many of these things do we consider historically > significant now, and how many will we still consider significant in 5, > 10, 25, 50, 100 years? > > -Frank McConnell From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 17 14:15:51 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... References: <199711170458.AA05268@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3470A5F5.53136D5C@batelco.com.bh> You see... that's the thing... I don't have anywhere to start but HERE. I've really only been REALLY interested in the PC business since '93, and collecting classics since May... I don't have ANYTHING.... I don't know anybody (except all of you lovely people out there....), and so I need somewhere to start... IBMs seem to be what I'm good at (I program them now as a hobby, so I know x86) I would take an IBM/PC, or, if they're easy to find, a PC jr. (Yes, even though I'm new, I have done my homework... I know that it flew like a rock... but I have a good idea... now, something like that might even MAKE MONEY...), anything that's not worth much money (that way I'm not asking for a Apple I...) I mean micros, Bahrain, rember? I don't care about "working order" or "untested".... I can usually get things working... provided that I've got parts (Something which is gradually increasing...) Thanks, Tim D. Hotze Allison J Parent wrote: > Along the same lines.... > > While digging through one of my boxes of stuff for a part I found a > partial S100 Jade Double density disk controller kit unassembled. Of > course I remember why I had it, the person that gave it to me back in > '82 wasn't up for the assembly task, raided it for parts and gave > me the remains. At the time I wasn't interested in getting a 1793 based > controller going as I was getting 765As for free and all the assistance > from it's designers I could use. Well guess what. I'm 98% of the way > through assembling it. Then I have to assemble the source code as there > are no disks but lots of listings in the manuals. It's z80 based in that > it has its own CPU as a bus slave. Should be interesting to get going. > > Oh, all the missing parts are from my collection and a few are date coded > before the board! It was all I had of some parts. > > Allison From photze at batelco.com.bh Mon Nov 17 14:16:04 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... References: <1.5.4.32.19971116184839.00698074@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <3470A5FB.8F7C6EC4@batelco.com.bh> Once again, I would like to place my vote on use the thing... (I never solidly said yes or no) people in the stone age didn't think... "Gee, this rock is millions of years old already... maybe if I leave it untouched, it might be a classic... [later] well, now that it's an arrow head, maybe I shouldn't use it..." If computers were ment to stay in crates, they would have been made without internal compontets... John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > I would vote to leave it alone, as this is a real classic untouched. John > At 08:40 AM 11/16/97 -0800, you wrote: > >You know, I always hate these moral dilemmas... > > > >In the last few days the collection received an AT&T UNIX PC (aka 7300, > >3b1) in extremely good condition. It arrived with all of the original > >docs, software, and mouse. The docs were unwrapped , and the mouse was in > >its original foam packing. "Kind of nice when someone packs things away > >properly" I thought. > > > >Well, its been a bit busy around the garage the last couple of weeks, so I > >put the unit and its associated stuff on the shelf and covered it up for a > >time. > > > >Last night, while I was working on a notebook (yes, one of those 'modern' > >things) for one of my wife's friends, I decided to have another look at the > >UNIX PC while I was waiting for a disk scan to finish... > > > >Found a spot for it on the bench, made a cursory check of the unit (nothing > >loose, nothing rattling...) and powered it up. It hummed and beeped > >happily and started drawing little boxes on the screen as I recalled it > >doing when it was starting up... > > > >However, about 3-4 minutes and 4-5 lines of little boxes later, it starts > >to dawn on me that it should not be taking quite this long to get a prompt > >of some kind. So, I move the keyboard to have a look at the floppy drive > >(it hides behind the keyboard you see) and sure enough the machine is > >looking for a floppy. > > > >Fine... so, I grab the binder containing the software distribution, open it > >up... > > > >All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it starts to dawn on me, > >that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind; made > >by the person who gave me the machine... "My father bought it for his > >company, read the manuals and realized that he had no idea what he was > >doing..." > > > >I find myself wondering... Back around 1985 when this thing was released > >(and about $10k+), who could have afforded to buy one of these things, open > >the manuals, decide that they were in over their heads, and just put it on > >the shelf without even loading the software??? EEK! > > > >And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or > >just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I > >have a fair amount of time to spend with it) > > > >No flame wars please, just the random philosophical question... > > > >-jim > > > >--- > >jimw@agora.rdrop.com > >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > > > > > > From manney at nwohio.com Sat Nov 15 12:29:07 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives Message-ID: <199711171746.JAA17880@mx2.u.washington.edu> >William Donzelli wrote: > >> says that they will last at least ten years. The best solution (other than >> mylar punched tape) is probably the older WORM drives (not MOs!), as they > >Purely out of morbid curiosity, has anybody ever considered making Tyvek >tape? The stuff is damned near impossible to tear and difficult even to >stretch enough to lose data. I don't think that indestructibility of the tape is the issue...the coating is the problem -- sliding across the head. What are you gonna bond to Tyvek? (still, DuPont managed to bond Teflon). From pjoules at mail.enterprise.net Mon Nov 17 12:04:11 1997 From: pjoules at mail.enterprise.net (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199711171802.SAA15938@mail.enterprise.net> > All of the disks are still sealed! At this point it starts to dawn on me, > that this machine has never been run! A comment flashes back to mind; made > It strikes me that from a pure 'collecting' point of view the machine is probably unique. It would be worth keeping as it is, but eventually the floppies will not be readable and the machine will then never be usable. However it may well still be very collectable as there will be no more brand new ones around. Regrads Pete From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 17 12:31:41 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711171831.AA27764@world.std.com> <> > latest thing to come down the 'pike - it's all ASICs, custom silicon, <> > and surface mount stuff on wafer-thin boards. In short - not built <> > to last. Nor is it designed to. Surface mount offers compact and also better signal integrity for ultrafast logic. There are many good reasons for surface mount that are in the realm of quality improvement. Yes, it's take more skill to fix and some of the parts are not easy to come by. FYI in the industry there a few descriptions of part of the problem. Good, fast, cheap, pick two. Cost of repair exceeds value of unit. Fix/trash decision. Many machine were made the way they were because technology of the time balanced against cost were deciding factors. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 17 12:31:49 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still! Message-ID: <199711171831.AA27875@world.std.com> Message-ID: Isn't there a Unix port of FREEBSD for Alpha? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Sure, you can buy them used for prices that aren't all that expensive > compared to late model 486 or early p5s. The older ones are now some 4-5 > years old. The OS for it will cost you. You have three choices that I > know of, OpenVMS (my favorite), Digital Unix, or NT. I don't know that > anyone has done a UNIX port outside of digital. > > Allison > > From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Nov 17 12:54:45 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still! In-Reply-To: <199711171831.AA27875@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117135445.0095c830@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Allison J Parent said: > >Sure, you can buy them used for prices that aren't all that expensive >compared to late model 486 or early p5s. The older ones are now some 4-5 >years old. The OS for it will cost you. You have three choices that I >know of, OpenVMS (my favorite), Digital Unix, or NT. I don't know that >anyone has done a UNIX port outside of digital. Sure... Linux. Linus Torvalds (the guy who wrote/writes/improves it) owns a DEC Alpha 500Mhz machine... I remember hearing that he can do a full kernal compile (with every single driver/module/etc.) on version 2.0.0 in under 8 minutes. (it's 15-20 minutes for a barebones kernal (1.3.18) on my Cyrix P150+) Anyone got a Alpha 166 *cheap*??? ;-) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Nov 17 13:04:49 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: Found on AuctionWeb... In-Reply-To: <199711171802.SAA15938@mail.enterprise.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117140449.009bb160@mail.northernway.net> An Apple Lisa Hardware Rack... http://iguana.ebay2.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2035144 Among other things, there's three Lisa lots on Haggle... go here: http://www.haggle.com/cache/cat43.html Also, a trackstar E for use with Tandy/IBM compatibles (Apple //e emulator) http://www.haggle.com/cgi/getitem.cgi?item_id=201452844 Also a few things under the "other systems listings" at haggle (mostly Atari / Amiga): http://www.haggle.com/cache/cat12.html Well... that's all I saw (but I didn't look too hard....) HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 17 13:33:05 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: tape readers unique solution Message-ID: <199711171933.AA08625@world.std.com> 3000 char sec easily. It's trivial hardware. Program: Copy LPT: file.tap Done. Allison From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 17 08:58:39 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still! In-Reply-To: <199711171831.AA27875@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711171954.OAA28151@mail.cgocable.net> > > Sure, you can buy them used for prices that aren't all that expensive > compared to late model 486 or early p5s. The older ones are now some 4-5 > years old. The OS for it will cost you. You have three choices that I > know of, OpenVMS (my favorite), Digital Unix, or NT. I don't know that > anyone has done a UNIX port outside of digital. > > Allison Um, Linux 2.0.30 now have Alpha support, PPC, 68k (amiga), 386, Mips, Sparc, Ataris. Linux is Unix kind which you can source unix source code to it by freely available complier and make 'em. Troll From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 17 08:58:39 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: Model 100, again In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116043453.00b3c8a0@mail.northernway.net> References: <199711170627.BAA13602@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199711171954.OAA28146@mail.cgocable.net> > At 01:32 AM 11/17/97 +0000, you wrote: > > Jason, > This is good advice, but: > *If* the M100 display is similar to the Tandy 200 display, they are _not > screwed together._ They are held together by a cheap pot-metal bracket with > nothing but tabs pushed thru slots on the LCD controller PCB and then > twisted. You will get 1, maybe two twists on each before they break. These > tabs must be *firmly* twisted to gain enough pressure on the LCD for the > pressure sensitive glass contacts to work. That rubber striped thingy are called zebra connectors. Used in lot of hard drives with a zeal especially early Maxtors, few quantums and few others. It's not pressure sensitive, the electrical connections is made by pressure. Long edge takes lot of pressure to do it because of area. Physics duh! > I had a badly misaligned T200 display that I attempted to realign... > realignment is not as easy as it would seem, and yet on my 3rd attempt it > was *perfectly* aligned. I had all of the tabs twisted back with decent > pressure and it was still holding... then, alas, the *last* tab broke, and > it was close to a corner, easily wiping out 10-15% of the display. It was > already a lost cause so there was nothing to lose, but I speak from > experience -- it's tough to bring these LCD's back from the dead. They're built to be mass-produced which means it has lot of hardware supports in that display frame and I kid you not, it's tin sheet and easily soldered. You could anneal it. Rub/dab all contacting points with new swabs dipped in 99% alcohol (easily had from paint hardware store). If the PCB used plain tin or plain brass instead of gold plated pads, you need to scrub it hard to remove all oxidiation. And Yes, please gently clean all zebra connectors as well. I have repaired both watches, clocks and calculators like that. Also, I saw there are marked alignment crosses on both glass and PCB in some displays especially large ones but usually it's just physical frame alignment that lines up if you really carefully straighten out any manufacturing errors clamping frame. If the frame is not solderable to make new tabs, consider clamping it with strong homemade c band scrapped out of old cheap bed wind up clocks. When I was trying to repair a compaq LTE Lite backlight, I found 2 pieces of LCD module that you can view from both sides with driver chipsets all built into 2 or 3mm thick. Seperate backlight module consists of single fluorenscent tube taped to light diffuser module on one long edge. Neat. But is that fluorenscent tube all used up if it takes "years" to warm up to 65% brightness with uneven brightness on one end and dark on other end? If I touch with conductive probe on primary side controller to specific point, it brightens up bit but can't use brightness control like that. Mighty Bitten off! :) Troll > "Merch" > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* > zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 17 13:39:23 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: Found on AuctionWeb... Message-ID: <199711171939.AA17154@world.std.com> On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Allison remarked to us: > You have three choices [for an Alpha OS] that I know of, OpenVMS > (my favorite), Digital Unix, or NT. I don't know that anyone has > done a UNIX port outside of digital. Linux has been successfully ported to the Alpha architecture. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Mon Nov 17 14:16:25 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <199711171831.AA27764@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <> > latest thing to come down the 'pike - it's all ASICs, custom silicon, > <> > and surface mount stuff on wafer-thin boards. In short - not built > <> > to last. Nor is it designed to. > > Surface mount offers compact and also better signal integrity for ultrafast > logic. There are many good reasons for surface mount that are in the realm > of quality improvement. Yes, it's take more skill to fix and some of the IMHO, surface mount repairs are not that hard given the right tools - a temperature-controlled soldering iron with a fine tip, fine silver-loaded solder and a steady hand will suffice for most repairs. You don't _need_ a hot-air rework station - such a unit will make the repairs faster, sure, but not necessarily any better. Don't try to remove the old component in one piece. Cut off the pins (_carefully_), remove the 'body' and desolder the pins one at a time. Mind you, I tend not to remove pin-through-hole devices in one piece unless I know the device is rare and/or I am removing it to dump the contents. When I repair something, suspect TTL devices get removed one pin at a time - OK, so I may be replacing a few pounds worth of chips that were OK, but at least the PCB will survive. > parts are not easy to come by. > > FYI in the industry there a few descriptions of part of the problem. > > Good, fast, cheap, pick two. > Cost of repair exceeds value of unit. Fix/trash decision. What is a problem is when it was decided at the time of manufacture that it was cheaper to replace than repair, so service manuals were never available. Now, 10 years on, there may be no chance of finding a replacement, so you have to repair. And repairing something without docs is the second-worst job that I know (the worst is repairing something with an incorrect/incomplete manual!) Case in point : Zip drives. I won't use one because no service manual or bit-level description of the disk is available. At some time in the future all the drives will have died. And then there's no chance of ever reading a zip disk again. > Allison -tony From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 17 09:21:49 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: tape readers unique solution In-Reply-To: <199711171933.AA08625@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711172017.PAA02199@mail.cgocable.net> > > > smashing ants with atomic cannon. Hahahaha!! Suppose some already have one? > The simplest form of scanner is 9 photocells(photo transistor or diode) > lined up under the tape, light above and the 9th (sproket hole connectd to > the data available(or ack) of a parallel port such as the PC printer port. > Tape movement, pull by hand. should be good for 300->3000 char sec easily. > > It's trivial hardware. Could cut some canned trannys open that is touchy to light and fill them up with good clear epxoy obtainable from hobby shop? Or steal those sensors from dead mouses, you can use either IR LED or strong light. (YES! those light bulbs generate lot of IR). Easier to deal with is pull up resistor network and photodiodes that pull down to ground. > Program: > > Copy LPT: file.tap > > Done. > > Allison Amazing, Allison. Troll From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 17 09:21:49 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117135445.0095c830@mail.northernway.net> References: <199711171831.AA27875@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711172017.PAA02203@mail.cgocable.net> > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Allison J Parent said: > Sure... Linux. Linus Torvalds (the guy who wrote/writes/improves it) owns a > DEC Alpha 500Mhz machine... I remember hearing that he can do a full kernal > compile (with every single driver/module/etc.) on version 2.0.0 in under 8 > minutes. (it's 15-20 minutes for a barebones kernal (1.3.18) on my Cyrix > P150+) I have done full kernel compiles on 16mb/P5 100 intel/ Fast ATA-2 1GB and took that long. Oh, memory is FPM, the cache is 256k pipelined burst. That's 1.3.12 with seveal extras included to support several devices and not yet to gotten that 2.0 cheaply but I know of good outfit called Cheapbytes where you can had Slackware or different packages for a expensive song on cd. :) Complete copy as you see on net. Only thing that stopped me doing Xwindows was that dumb display card that drives LCD module (it's old one but VGA capable Cirrus logic 610/620 chipset on that old lunchbox). And where could I find a complete shematic of ISA/IDE so I could build a custom adapter to plug into my better notebook (LTE 386s/20) to drive a IDE cdrom? Oh yeah, I do have the expansion pinout and it's ISA compatiable and I do have proper connectors. > Anyone got a Alpha 166 *cheap*??? ;-) Far cheap to get used Intel chips from 486dx4-100 all the way to P5 233mmx or P5 200, cost have came down on PPro 180 256k to about under 200 each and you can overclock it to 200mhz. AMD K6 have problems with some s/w giving sig errors. Also both Cyrix and AMD chips have weak FPU. Troll > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional > Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers > zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? > Troll From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 17 14:22:24 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:39 2005 Subject: New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still! Message-ID: <199711172022.AA05128@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > *If* the M100 display is similar to the Tandy 200 display, they are _not > > screwed together._ They are held together by a cheap pot-metal bracket with > > nothing but tabs pushed thru slots on the LCD controller PCB and then > > twisted. You will get 1, maybe two twists on each before they break. These > > tabs must be *firmly* twisted to gain enough pressure on the LCD for the > > pressure sensitive glass contacts to work. When I had to replace the LCD strip in my Sharp PC1500 computer, the place that sold me the new display also sold me (for a little more money) a new mounting frame, explaining that it was difficult to reuse the original one. Needless to say they were right. > That rubber striped thingy are called zebra connectors. Used in lot > of hard drives with a zeal especially early Maxtors, few quantums and > few others. It's not pressure sensitive, the electrical connections > is made by pressure. Long edge takes lot of pressure to do it > because of area. Physics duh! > > > I had a badly misaligned T200 display that I attempted to realign... > > realignment is not as easy as it would seem, and yet on my 3rd attempt it Often, alignment is easy _if_ you can figure out what has to be aligned. In the case of the Sharp I mentioned earlier, the display had to be fitted into the frame hard against one side (I forget which). Sometimes there are alignemnt holes in the PCB and in a tab on the frame. Sometimes the whole thing was clamped up in a jig at the factory, in which case you've got problems. BTW, are you sure a new display is needed for this M100? Firstly my M100 TechRef lists separate part numbers for the display itself, the mounting frame, the driver chips, etc. So you might be able to reapir the old one. And secondly, I've never had a M100 display fail. What normally fails is the -5V power supply (normally an O/C rectifier IIRC). This supply is used by the serial port, internal modem _and_ as the bias supply for the LCD panel. [...] > Troll -tony From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 17 09:42:48 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: References: <199711171831.AA27764@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711172038.PAA05934@mail.cgocable.net> Hi! > On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > Snip > > Surface mount offers compact and also better signal integrity for ultrafast > > logic. There are many good reasons for surface mount that are in the realm > > of quality improvement. Yes, it's take more skill to fix and some of the > > IMHO, surface mount repairs are not that hard given the right tools - a > temperature-controlled soldering iron with a fine tip, fine silver-loaded > solder and a steady hand will suffice for most repairs. You don't _need_ a > hot-air rework station - such a unit will make the repairs faster, sure, > but not necessarily any better. Successfully done on that fine pitch gull leads with a common tiny fine spring shaped to small L hook and heat each pin, pull on that wire to flick some solder out and seperate that leads. Done that on 386sx chips and many IDE chipsets because they blow up and one I/O chip on a recent P5 asus. (!) For J leaded types, I just melt too much solder and lead that blob for fixing bad solder joints or soldering in. To remove this I do not know unless you have hot air. > Don't try to remove the old component in one piece. Cut off the pins > (_carefully_), remove the 'body' and desolder the pins one at a time. Mind > you, I tend not to remove pin-through-hole devices in one piece unless I > know the device is rare and/or I am removing it to dump the contents. When > I repair something, suspect TTL devices get removed one pin at a time - > OK, so I may be replacing a few pounds worth of chips that were OK, but at > least the PCB will survive. If it's rare part, save it unless you're SURE it's totally blown by funny behavior or cracked or smelly and bubbled. For common TTL IC's I just snip 'em to save time and wear n tear on PCB. I do that same to DRAM's. > > parts are not easy to come by. Do it from scrap boards for good oddball parts?! > > > > FYI in the industry there a few descriptions of part of the problem. > > > > Good, fast, cheap, pick two. > > Cost of repair exceeds value of unit. Fix/trash decision. > > What is a problem is when it was decided at the time of manufacture that > it was cheaper to replace than repair, so service manuals were never > available. Now, 10 years on, there may be no chance of finding a > replacement, so you have to repair. And repairing something without docs > is the second-worst job that I know (the worst is repairing something > with an incorrect/incomplete manual!) True that why I'm worried and maddening. > Case in point : Zip drives. I won't use one because no service manual or > bit-level description of the disk is available. At some time in the future > all the drives will have died. And then there's no chance of ever reading > a zip disk again. Then we use number to PRESS on Iomega to make it popular item and provide specs or crack 'em the secrets. :) That technology is very desiresble because those disks is so inexpensive and very durable even the drives breaks. I can't stand thinking about LS-120! Even we can tell them to improve on one problem because I already ID'ed a problem that are killing those drives jarring those heads when 4 pins hits home at ejection, Using floppy type ejection design is better because it does not move the heads and use the fiction to soften up the eject speed. Don't worry about the head, it retracts completely out of the disk automatically. This is what I like about the Zip IDE drives it's a right design like the floppy drive machism. But I wished Iomega sell one in SCSI version as well which means we have to press for it! Troll > > > Allison > > -tony From darlene at iamerica.net Mon Nov 17 14:41:37 1997 From: darlene at iamerica.net (The Ray's) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: help needed on a amiga 500 Message-ID: <3470AC01.4263@iamerica.net> It sounds like your machine needs a good cleaning, the disk drive is not reading the disk"maybe". I have four working commodore c64 computers, and the drives need to be cleaned. Even more after laying around for a long period of time. If your drive turns when you try to load something it sounds like it could be a dirty drive. It's not much to go on, but I have seen these small things stop folks in their tracks. good luck, bad eye bill. From engine at chac.org Mon Nov 17 14:50:04 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971117124959.00f8a390@pop.batnet.com> At 13:29 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >I don't think that indestructibility of the tape is the issue...the coating >is the problem -- sliding across the head. What are you gonna bond to Tyvek? No, no, no! Tyvek PUNCHED tape! Coat nothing! Build a carbide punch-head.... Pull it through whippin' fast, like Colossus. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From engine at chac.org Mon Nov 17 14:59:22 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971117125901.00f7abe0@pop.batnet.com> At 15:42 11/17/97 +0000, you wrote: >This is what I like about the Zip IDE drives it's a right design like >the floppy drive machism. But I wished Iomega sell one in SCSI >version as well which means we have to press for it! er....There are SCSI Zip drives, both int and ext. I've got an internal here, use it to store the techno and ambient I listen to through an AWE32. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Nov 17 14:09:51 1997 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Fluke 1722 In-Reply-To: <199711060107.UAA21367@webern.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <613382BD304E@ifrsys.com> Hey: A while back somebody wanted a lead on a Fluke 1722 instrument controller. I have lost the original message, so if you're still interested could you e-mail me? There's a place out on the web that's got one for sale. . . . Jeff From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Nov 17 15:07:30 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <199711172038.PAA05934@mail.cgocable.net> References: <199711171831.AA27764@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971117160730.00af36d0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, jpero@cgo.wave.ca said: [snip] >> Case in point : Zip drives. I won't use one because no service manual or >> bit-level description of the disk is available. At some time in the future >> all the drives will have died. And then there's no chance of ever reading >> a zip disk again. >Then we use number to PRESS on Iomega to make it popular item and >provide specs or crack 'em the secrets. :) ... [snip] >This is what I like about the Zip IDE drives it's a right design like >the floppy drive machism. But I wished Iomega sell one in SCSI >version as well which means we have to press for it! The external SCSI Zip drive was the first one on the market!!! shortly after, the parallel interface external followed... but it's only a kludged SCSI I/F anyway... there's a "parallel to SCSI converter" in the drive, and the software interface only sends SCSI commands thru the parallel port. IIRC, the internal SCSI and internal IDE came at roughly the same time (i.e. not too long ago). I've had a SCSI Zip for 18 months now... but I digress. Anyone know how to build a simple ACSI to SCSI converter so I can hook one up to the DMA port on my Atari 1040ST????? ;-) HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 17 10:18:29 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971117125901.00f7abe0@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <199711172114.QAA12655@mail.cgocable.net> > At 15:42 11/17/97 +0000, you wrote: > >This is what I like about the Zip IDE drives it's a right design like > >the floppy drive machism. But I wished Iomega sell one in SCSI > >version as well which means we have to press for it! > > er....There are SCSI Zip drives, both int and ext. I've got an internal > here, use it to store the techno and ambient I listen to through an AWE32. Yup. There are 2 types of mechisms currently used: OLD model: 4 pins in rails used in external drives and 5.25" only internal drive. The newer ZIP IDE and the either 3.5" or with adapter to fit 5.25" bay zip scsi. But this one I'm not certain. Troll > __________________________________________ > Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html > Computer History Association of California From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Nov 17 15:13:43 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still! In-Reply-To: <199711171831.AA27875@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Sure, you can buy them used for prices that aren't all that expensive > compared to late model 486 or early p5s. The older ones are now some 4-5 > years old. The OS for it will cost you. You have three choices that I > know of, OpenVMS (my favorite), Digital Unix, or NT. I don't know that > anyone has done a UNIX port outside of digital. > Nope! There's Linux/Alpha. DEC gave Linus Torvalds an AV5 just to do the port. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 17 15:41:00 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971117133835.5687d7bc@ricochet.net> At 01:39 PM 11/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >OK, I am probably going to get yelled at... > >> Okay.... recently, there's been lots of "off-topic" stuff going on here >> about computers... but I think that it's not "off-topic." > >In my opinion it is. There are lots of good, smart people on this list >that can help everyone with modern(ish) equipment, but there are also lots >of them on other lists and USENET. I agree. I even think that there are better sources of info on the day-to-day operation of things like an Atari ST or Falcon (which I have) than here. If you want to know how to copy disks under CP/M, you'll be better off in comp.os.cpm. Which is not to say that such a question would necessarily be unwelcome, just not as well answered. Better might be "Where/who should I ask about formatting CP/M disks?" Mind you, I've answered PC questions posed to a Land Rover list (and suffered through discussions of florists in Oregon and which guitars are the best (I like Fenders, if I could afford one) on the same list.) >> if you remember, in the "welcome" message, it >> said that it was hard to state the definiton of a classic... but 10 >> years or older would do. Well, 10 years is kinda arbitrary (and probably rather recent at this point.) Still, gotta do it somehow. My personal guideline is non-mainstream stuff (non-pc and non-mac) unless it's something really weird (like the Outbound laptop or the IBM PC Radio.) Still, that keeps it to >10yrs for almost everything except the occasional oddity. I wouldn't, fer instance, bother mentioning the Sharp PC-7100's or Compaq lunchbox here, even though they're probably 10yrs+ (Sharps for sure.) (Except, of course, as part of a larger discussion on the history of portable computers.) In any case, as with any such list, the decision and definition really belongs only to the list owner (Bill Whitson in this case) no matter how much he might solicit or be affected by input from list members. (And, of course, we all have the option of setting up our own DOS-PC-Collectors or whatever list if we want.) Personally, I'm not all that into DEC stuff (though a PDP 11/70 was my first and I thought it was great) so I wouldn't mind seeing less VAXstationery this or DECwindowshades that messages, but I wouldn't think of suggesting that others not post them. I just delete them (sometimes even without reading them -- Sorry!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Mon Nov 17 11:00:13 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Trying here...for hd parts, they're old. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971117160730.00af36d0@mail.northernway.net> References: <199711172038.PAA05934@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199711172155.QAA20259@mail.cgocable.net> Hi, Looking for either just board or whole drives with bad HDA but board is considered good. Here's the list: Seagate: ST1201A Conner: CP30104, CP30174E Question: I have a board that does not match to any hds for conner: It's stamped 06700-010-P3, Two ROM's INTF rom label: 6YT-039A and DISK rom label: 6AB-039. This board only belongs to either late 2 models series that uses front jumper besides the LED connector instead of seperate on-board jumper block. This board fits same way like the CP30 and CP300 series 1" with motor hump held in place by 3 screws. Maxtor: 7213A, LXT 213A Western Digital WDAC2200 If anyone have a used IDE hd to sell between 120 to 400mb real cheap also please respond! All of those drives are strictly my use and several are for bench work and plain use. I hate to use 40mb to 80mb which I have one of each. Will pay shipping. If some want to disposed of that would be nice. Please email me to haggle but I prefer cheap. Thanks! Troll PS tried that on newsgroups last year with very poor results. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 17 16:21:15 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: tape readers unique solution Message-ID: <199711172221.AA13916@world.std.com> Sirs, I received your name from Bill Yakowenko. I have a TRS-8080 Color Computer 2 with mod kit to solve the overheating problem and memory upgrade. My system also includes a disk drive, multi-pak interface, cassette recorder, x-pad graphics tablet, deluxe joysticks, external serial/parallel port interface, X-10 light/appliance controller, light pen, editor/assembler module and parts for an experimenter's I/O port. I also have OS-9 and numerous other programs and very much documentation including all original manuals. Finally, I have many Color Computer magazines, including almost every issue of Color Computer News. I'm interested in finding this equipment a good home at extremely low or no price other than postage. I'm not sure what services you provide but if you post messages such as the above would you please post this? Too, what is your website address? Thanks, David Fitts From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Nov 17 19:43:31 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <971117204330_664762798@mrin46.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-17 12:20:14 EST, HOTZE put forth: > You see... that's the thing... I don't have anywhere to start but HERE. I've > really only been REALLY interested in the PC business since '93, and > collecting classics since May... I don't have ANYTHING.... I don't know > anybody (except all of you lovely people out there....), and so I need > somewhere to start... IBMs seem to be what I'm good at (I program them now > as > a hobby, so I know x86) I would take an IBM/PC, or, if they're easy to find, > > a PC jr. well, gee, i have an extra pcjr and power supply laying around here... dont know what shipping would be, however. RE: the unix box, and the issue whether to power it up: back in the 1980s i collected beer cans and it was clearly established that cans were worth more if full, or emptied from the bottom so the drink tab was left undisturbed and full 6packs were the most valuable, so i say if it's left alone, it would be "worth" more. i have an unused ibm 5150 in the original box with the original cardboard shipping disks along with the original keyboard in its' box. they may not be worth a lot now, but will be eventually, especially with their boxes and documentation. david From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 17 20:02:49 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971117180027.5687625a@ricochet.net> At 04:38 PM 11/17/97 +0000, you wrote: > EXACTLY!!!! There are people who collect baseball cards (Somehthing which > I DO NOT do) and leave them in the packaging.... they don't even know what > cards are inside.... for all they know, the information could lead them to I know a guy who has a collection of CA lottery tickets (the $1 scratch-off tickets) that is complete (except one that he missed). One of each type, unscratched. Sure, he could be missing out on $10k or something, but to him, having the collection is worth more. (He also has a collection of scratched ones.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 17 20:02:52 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971117180029.520f9b24@ricochet.net> At 09:22 AM 11/17/97 -0600, you wrote: >> excellent PS/2 '87 era series that can be ripped apart with bare >> hands except for motherboard and PSU screws. > >FWIW, my absolute favorite box of all time is the VAXstation 4000/60 or /96; >you can get everything out of the box quickly with no tools. In contrast, >it's only been in the last few years that I've gotten coordinated enough to >keep from mutilating my knuckles every time I go into a VAXstation 2000... I dunno if it's my favorite, but I do like the Mac IIci (intro'd in '89 -- almost 10 years) beacuse it too comes apart with no tools (mostly.) My first computer, the Atari 600XL was great because the cartridge slot was in exactly the right position to use it as a handle. The one downside of the m100 is it had no handle, nor did it's little slipcover. (And the RS blue case was too expensive -- then; I've got one now.) Any other thoughts on case designs? I still think the Lisa was beautiful, and I'll have to check out the 3b1. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From adam at merlin.net.au Mon Nov 17 20:19:45 1997 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) Message-ID: >Any other thoughts on case designs? I still think the Lisa was beautiful, >and I'll have to check out the 3b1. I have to agree about the Lisa - there is just something about her lines which really appeals to me. :) The Atari 400 is also a faviourite, as it has the weird science-fiction look. But the best (apart from the Lisa) would have to be the Mac 128 and Apple IIc - both are very much Steve Jobs' concept of what a computer should be, and although I don't agree with him they nevertheless have a fine design concept. If only I have a NextCube - that is one of the two computers I most want in the world (the other being a Sinclair ZX81). Adam. From starling at umr.edu Mon Nov 17 20:38:23 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: from "Adam Jenkins" at Nov 18, 97 12:49:45 pm Message-ID: <199711180238.UAA13530@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > I have to agree about the Lisa - there is just something about her lines > which really appeals to me. :) The Atari 400 is also a faviourite, as it > has the weird science-fiction look. But the best (apart from the Lisa) > would have to be the Mac 128 and Apple IIc - both are very much Steve Jobs' > concept of what a computer should be, and although I don't agree with him > they nevertheless have a fine design concept. I like the Lisa's INTERNAL design more than it's external appearance. It has to be one of the easiest computers to take appart! Two thumb-screws to pop open the back panel and then you pull out the entire backplane-cage assembly. Nice-n-easy. I'd also have to nominate almost every IBM PS/2 for having sweet case design. Especially the model 35SX (a desktop that can be taken appart with the monitor still sitting on top of the case) and the model 80 (they're just nifty inside). But they also get nominated for the Proprietary Standards from Hell award, with the grand prize going to whoever thought up the Microchannel Hard Drive. Mmm... lets hook a hard drive directly into the BUS! Maybe other non-PC machines have done this, but it just seems like a really wonky thing to do with a quasi-PC machine. Anyway... my main reason for posting was to say that I do believe that the case and externals for the Apple //c was designed by an engineer that designed bodies for Porsche. Hence, it gets the award for sleekest case. The Apple //c also gets Starling's Liquid Fault Tolerance Award... there's no telling how many times I (as a kid) spilled water or soda down the keyboard, only to have it safely run out those little vents at the bottom of the case, no damage done. > If only I have a NextCube - that is one of the two computers I most want in > the world (the other being a Sinclair ZX81). www.deepspacetech.com frequently has good deals on NeXT hardware. You might look there. I've never bought anything from them, but I've never heard anything bad about them. But, of course, nothing beats buying the machine you want at an auction for $10.00. :) chris starling starling@umr.edu From william at ans.net Mon Nov 17 21:17:42 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <199711180238.UAA13530@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: > I like the Lisa's INTERNAL design more than it's external appearance. Judging from the one I have seen, I would have to agree. Someone at Apple had there head screwed on right in the case department. > I'd also have to nominate almost every IBM PS/2 for having sweet case > design. IBM has always been big on the ergonomics of their machines, especially for servicing. Many IBM machines were leased, so when the things broke, IBM had to fix them. Any time that the onsite engineer could shave off was a savings for IBM. I have what must be the most butt ugly terminal ever made, an old IBM thing from the last of the 360 days. It looks like a mishapen lump of white metal, with a keyboard that can be best described as "thick" The CRT is a strange aspect ratio, something like 1:2. It, however, must be the nicest thing in the world to fix (it seems to work, so I have not had the need to fix it). The case pops off with little difficulty, then the different chassis (the thing has quite a few boards in it, full of SLTs) fold out, yet nothing needs to be disconnected. Another example of fine service thinking are the very old Sun SPARC machines, and the newer members of the Sun-3 line (3/180). The cases, once again, pop off with a little persuation, and the VME cards have nice big ejectors, so they are quite easy to get into and out of. The drive trays allow one to install the drives and not have to worry much about connecting cables while aligning the tray. Additionally, the cases, as with most _newer_ Sun stuff, looks really sharp. Actually (and I know I am going to get a rotten tomato thrown at me for this one), most modern computers (except the PeeCee) are much nicer to work on than those from 10 or 20 years ago. The attention to details seems to be on the rise, yeilding designs that I really have to scrutinize to find something dumb about them (I have yet to find something dumb about the larger Ciscos). > > If only I have a NextCube As far as style is concerned , the NeXTcube wins in the desktop arena, and the quite similar looking Connection Machine (another black cube, several feet on each edge, with one face covered with _thousands_ of red LEDs) wins in the heavyweight arena. Cray Research, past and present, also deserves an award for years of very cool looking machines. Hopefully SGI will not kill that off. William Donzelli william@ans.net From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Nov 18 00:23:09 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: For Trade: (New) Inmac 16 sector 5 1/4" floppy disks References: <3481df6e.531360065@hoser> Message-ID: <34713449.4CCABE05@batelco.com.bh> I'm not really sure about 10 sector floppies... but the magazine Computer Shopper (Of Ziff-Davis) (http://www.cshopper.com) has many adds for old floppies... versions of DOS, old laptops, etc... but nothing old enough for classics, except for floppies, OSes, etc., no full systems... the print version is usually slightly smaller than 1000 pages (per month, for $5 US), the online has all the ads for free, but the search engine is hard to use... (was hard to use) Bill Richman wrote: > I need some 5 1/4" 10-sector floppies for my various "classic/antique" > machines. I thought that was what I was buying in a recent on-line > auction. What I ended up with was 16-sector floppies. I don't even > know what uses these; certainly nothing I have. Accordingly, I'm > offering to trade for 10-sector versions. These are Inmac DS,DD, 16 > hard sector 5 1/4" disks with envelopes. Quantity 30 (3 boxes of 10). > Two boxes are still factory shrink-wrapped. The 3rd was until I > opened it to verify that I'd gotten the wrong thing; none were used. > Make a trade offer, or alternatively, does anyone know where and how > much I might be able to just *buy* some 10-sectors? > > -Bill Richman > bill_r@inetnebr.com > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. > When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. > When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. > Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." > -www.paranoia.com From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Nov 18 00:23:10 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: HD Floppies in DD Drives References: <9710178798.AA879806189@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3471344C.DFAF0F2F@batelco.com.bh> Keep me informed... I wouldn't mind having a backup system that's data would outlast the labels printed on it... also, I would like to be able to say "I know the guy behind Tyvek tape backups"... we could all have matching drives! Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > says that they will last at least ten years. The best solution (other than > > > mylar punched tape) is probably the older WORM drives (not MOs!), as they > > > > Purely out of morbid curiosity, has anybody ever considered making Tyvek > > tape? The stuff is damned near impossible to tear and difficult even to > > stretch enough to lose data. > > That is actually a very good idea. I shall dig out some tyvek samples and > cut some inch-wide strips for initial tests. If this is OK, I shall > contact the manufacturers. I'll post results here, but can't make any > promises as to timescale. > > FWIW I kept some tyvek samples (from an office supplies catalogue) for use > as gasket paper on my car. Works a treat on things like carburettors, gear > levers, etc. Don't fancy trying it on cylinder heads, though... > > Philip. From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Nov 18 00:26:14 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Software Needed Message-ID: <34713505.92725403@batelco.com.bh> Hello... I just got that spiffy coco2 emulator, and I need software for it... Thanks in Advance, Tim D. Hotze From lfb107 at psu.edu Mon Nov 17 21:39:08 1997 From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <199711180341.WAA13324@r02n02.cac.psu.edu> >In a message dated 97-11-17 12:20:14 EST, HOTZE put forth: >RE: the unix box, and the issue whether to power it up: >back in the 1980s i collected beer cans and it was clearly established that >cans were worth more if full, or emptied from the bottom so the drink tab was >left undisturbed and full 6packs were the most valuable, so i say if it's >left alone, it would be "worth" more. i have an unused ibm 5150 in the >original box with the original cardboard shipping disks along with the >original keyboard in its' box. they may not be worth a lot now, but will be >eventually, especially with their boxes and documentation. >david I think we are forgetting one thing. Sure the 7300 would technically be "worth" more still in the box, but there is a limit to what you'll be able to actually get. You see these things very often for free (3B2's as well) on the comp.sys.att newsgroup so what does that make it worth then? I would have to vote for "just use it." Any parts can be scavenged from PC's or usually for free on the ng. LeS From transit at primenet.com Mon Nov 17 21:52:22 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Model 100, again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > BTW, are you sure a new display is needed for this M100? I sure hope not. From what I've read so far, reinstalling it would be a royal pain. . . > Firstly my M100 > TechRef lists separate part numbers for the display itself, the mounting > frame, the driver chips, etc. So you might be able to reapir the old one. > > And secondly, I've never had a M100 display fail. What normally fails is > the -5V power supply (normally an O/C rectifier IIRC). This supply is used > by the serial port, internal modem _and_ as the bias supply for the LCD > panel. Any idea which rectifier it could be (I see at least 22 of them on the motherboard) I guess I could check them all with a voltmeter, although in-circuit testing of these things is fraught with peril. . . From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Nov 17 23:36:31 1997 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Model 100, again In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971116043453.00b3c8a0@mail.northernway.net> from Roger Merchberger at "Nov 16, 97 04:34:53 am" Message-ID: <199711180536.AAA01243@tigger.exit109.com> > At 01:32 AM 11/17/97 +0000, you wrote: > >The interconnection > >between actual LCD glass and the PCB is not that hard to take apart > >to clean and easy to align together and screw them back together? > > I had a badly misaligned T200 display that I attempted to realign... > realignment is not as easy as it would seem, and yet on my 3rd attempt it > was *perfectly* aligned. I had all of the tabs twisted back with decent > pressure and it was still holding... then, alas, the *last* tab broke, and > it was close to a corner, easily wiping out 10-15% of the display. It was > already a lost cause so there was nothing to lose, but I speak from > experience -- it's tough to bring these LCD's back from the dead. Out of curiousity, what is the symptoms of a "badly misaligned" display? I have an M100 which is showing nothing but a couple of big bars and some random video noise. From typing blind I can tell it is not a CPU problem. Part of the reason I ask is that this particular system may have taken a bang or two, though there is no obvious damage. <<> From pcoad at wco.com Tue Nov 18 00:39:33 1997 From: pcoad at wco.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Data General model 6122 disk subsystem available Message-ID: There is a local (Silicon Valley) guy who has a model 6122 disk subsystem with two packs. It has a capacity of 277MB and requires 3 phase power. Included are also some shipping cases for the packs. I believe that the subsystem weighs about 200-300 pounds. The dimensions are approximately 20" x 48" x 30". It was used with a Data General Eclipse S/140. My understanding is that the unit can be had for the price of shipping or for free you are willing to pick it up. I am willing to take care of the labor for packing and shipping. This unit will be scrapped soon if a home cannot be found for it. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Antique Computer Collection: http://www.wco.com/~pcoad/machines.html From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Tue Nov 18 03:04:01 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > I have what must be the most butt ugly terminal ever made, an old IBM > thing from the last of the 360 days. It looks like a mishapen lump of > white metal, with a keyboard that can be best described as "thick" The CRT > is a strange aspect ratio, something like 1:2. It, however, must be > the nicest thing in the world to fix (it seems to work, so I have not had Nicest thing to work on that I ever saw was a Barco monitor. Access was from 3 points - undo 2 screws and lift off the top/sides, undo 3 quarter-turn clips and remove the back panel, and unlock a drawer under the CRT at the front and slide it out. The drawer contains the 2 timebase generators and the convergence panel. All the controls you need to tweak while watching the screen are at the front. And as the boards are side-by-side, it's trivial to connect a 'scope probe to them. The video amplifiers and sync cards are in a cardcage across the back. The PSU cardcage (and mains transformer) mounts on top of them on the right hand side. On the left hand side are the horizontal output module and the EHT supply. Now, cards in cardcages are in general difficult to work on. But Barco provide an extender board in the video cardcage (in a spare slot) so you can work on them A Barco TV was nearly as good. Pop the back (4 screws), and there was a motherboard mounted vertically around the CRT neck. Pull out any of the plug-in cards, hinge the motherboard down, and plug it into pins on the solder side of the motherboard. You can now trivially test it. > Actually (and I know I am going to get a rotten tomato thrown at me for > this one), most modern computers (except the PeeCee) are much nicer to > work on than those from 10 or 20 years ago. The attention to details seems I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal either. -tony From engine at chac.org Tue Nov 18 08:57:51 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971118065742.00f96a80@pop.batnet.com> At 09:04 11/18/97 +0000, you wrote: >I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to >be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic >analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal >either. Wellll....I wouldn't mind a fastener that gave me the choice, like some kind of knurled goodie with a screwdriver slot. That would cover the case where I'm at someone's house for dinner, and they say "Oh, BTW, my computer's not working," and I didn't bring a screwdriver and they don't own a #2 Phillips. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Nov 18 12:20:38 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED References: <1.5.4.16.19971117133835.5687d7bc@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3471DC72.7F0F32BC@batelco.com.bh> Okay... it seems that after several days of discussion of this topic, we have the following info: (1) The definition is bendable, as circimsances dicatate, (2) The definition is pretty much fine as it is, but (3) (The BIG one) Many computers will NOT be significant classics... origionally, as has been pointed out, the "10 year" rule was to make sure that IBMs weren't included... first the IBM/PC, then the IBM XT, then the AT, and pretty soon, we'll be getting in to a time where the words "IBM Compatible" are going to get replaced with "PC." The fact is, there are just to darn many 386s to contemplate... we have a few options... (1) Allow only the first/last (IE Deskpro 386 first, I don't know about last) or there are many others.... but it seems that the correction that I was trying to push to allow MORE was wrong: It seems that you want LESS... and when I think about it, it might make sense... for handhelds, the "standard" won't apply probably (for classics) until around 2010 or so, so they'll remain in for some time... but anyway, we need to think, or just keep it as it is... but the "386 problem" is going to be something that we'll have to conquer... and the days are a commin... Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Nov 18 12:20:33 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still! References: Message-ID: <3471DC6F.1A1208E3@batelco.com.bh> Okay... just a few more off topic questions (well, not about the old Alphas, which is probably what this is going to be about) (1) Are old/new Motherboards compatible (IE 300 Mhz now, 600 Mhz later) (2) Where on God's creation can I get the parts???? (As for the OS, I'll probably take Linux, or NT, but I thought that there was translation software for x86 written...) Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > > > > Sure, you can buy them used for prices that aren't all that expensive > > compared to late model 486 or early p5s. The older ones are now some 4-5 > > years old. The OS for it will cost you. You have three choices that I > > know of, OpenVMS (my favorite), Digital Unix, or NT. I don't know that > > anyone has done a UNIX port outside of digital. > > > > Nope! There's Linux/Alpha. DEC gave Linus Torvalds an AV5 just to do the > port. From dastar at wco.com Tue Nov 18 09:27:21 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <3471DC72.7F0F32BC@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, HOTZE wrote: > (2) The definition is pretty much fine as it is, but (3) (The BIG one) Many > computers will NOT be significant classics... origionally, as has been pointed > out, the "10 year" rule was to make sure that IBMs weren't included... first the > IBM/PC, then the IBM XT, then the AT, and pretty soon, we'll be getting in to a > time where the words "IBM Compatible" are going to get replaced with "PC." The The rule was not meant to exclude the IBM PC or its descendants. It was meant to discourage discussion of contemporary computing as there are hundreds of news and discussion groups already existing to cover those issues. If you read the FAQ, Bill clearly explains the purpose of the "ten year rule" in this light (at least I think he does). Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Nov 18 10:18:22 1997 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it In-Reply-To: <199711170802.AAA05046@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Off-topic part of post, please ignore. Here's the way I remember these things: BeeGee = 70's pop music group memeber GeeBee = 30's racing aircraft Meantime, back to the computers; 1) I vote strongly in favor of keeping the 10-year rule. It's simple, it's hard to start an argument over, and it has worked wonderfully so far. It is a "moving window", but that's appropriate. Time is moving on... 2) On whether to mothball or use a system: if it's your second one, mothball. If it's your first one of that type, follow Tony's good suggestions regarding PS testing and then *use it*. Keep the packing material, keep the manuals pristine, but get some time on it. Why? Nobody is going to get passionate about a box in the closet. Five years from now when the rest of your family needs more room in the closet, that box will hit the streets or the dumpster if it's just a box. ("But you *never use it!*") Worse, 5 years from now Tony may have been hit by a truck (er... lorry. and no offense intended, Tony!) and no one will be able to help you debug the power supply if you decide to fire it up and it fails its test. On the other hand, if it's the system you spend your nights hacking on to try to port Mosaic or bring up a Mandelbrot-set displayer on, it's *safe*. Your family will hit the streets instead :-). And if it's got an infant-mortality problem, better to flush it out while this group is around to help you. Just my humble opnion. I play Tetris on my Rainbow and am planning to (real soon now (TM) ) write a Mandelbrot set program on it. I use my Mac Plus for the family finances and all sorts of games (it's getting flaky though. needs work.). My NeXT is at my office and web-surfs and runs Mathematica analyses for my job, in exchange for its IP address. (urk! wasn't I just advocating the 10-year rule? Sorry. We'll be there soon!) - Mark From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 18 11:19:52 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still! Message-ID: <199711181719.AA22917@world.std.com> <(1) Are old/new Motherboards compatible (IE 300 Mhz now, 600 Mhz later) I don't know or care. Likely not but there are reasons I say so. <(2) Where on God's creation can the parts???? (As for the OS, I'll probably take Linux, or NT, but I though there was translation software for x86 written...) I can't solve your geography problem. Here in the USA Alphas are plentyful as in western europe. The news groups have several a week for sale. Yes there is DEC software for x86 emulation. All you need to do is spend money as most all of it is current enough to buy. It is far to new to even discuss it further here Alpha is a 90s machine! By definition not eligible for status here till 2000+. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 18 11:20:05 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711181720.AA23093@world.std.com> From: HOTZE References: <199711172038.PAA05934@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199711181745.MAA21556@smtp.interlog.com> On 17 Nov 97 at 16:07, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I've had a SCSI Zip for 18 months now... but I digress. > > Anyone know how to build a simple ACSI to SCSI converter so I can hook one > up to the DMA port on my Atari 1040ST????? ;-) > > HTH, > "Merch" > -- > Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional > Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers > zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? > I've been using a Syquest EZ 135 external SCSI as a sort of utility DD on my doze mchns., my Mac+ and my ST for some time now each with it's own 135 mb disk. Works great ( a few problems with the Mac+ due to interleave speed) I use a Link2 for the Atari interface, which also allows me to chain SCSI devices such as CD's and scanners. Several of the Atari retailers carry them. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From michaelg at gray.mb.ca Tue Nov 18 12:05:26 1997 From: michaelg at gray.mb.ca (Michael Gillespie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Message-ID: <3471D8E6.168B@gray.mb.ca> I own two complete IBM 5100 systems. My original machine was fully loaded with 64k and both APL and BASIC in ROM. It also had the serial I/O card and I used to remotely access the machine with an ASR33 teletype at 110(?) baud. With the proprietary vertical market software plus the IBM software, I paid about $64,000 in 1975(?), or about a buck a byte. The other, purchased ten years later for spares, has BASIC only and I forget the amount of memory. I also have the entire library of IBM software released for these machines and all documentation including the service manuals. I have two external tape drives and two printers as well and boxes and boxes of tapes. I wrote a fully-funcional word-processor in APL for use with the "Paper Tiger"-series printers. I wrote over 100 user manuals on this machine and output camera-ready copy. If anyone out there needs any info or assistance with the 5100, perhaps I can help. -- Michael. -----------------------------------------------+------------------------ Michael Gillespie | Voice/Fax 204.943.9000 President, Telecommunities Canada Inc. | michaelg@tc.ca President, The Gray Research Group | michaelg@gray.mb.ca Project Manager, Blue Sky Community Networks | michaelg@freenet.mb.ca --- No good deed will go unpunished. ---- Standard Disclaimers Apply --- From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Nov 18 10:20:03 1997 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <3471DC72.7F0F32BC@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <658789F5353B@ifrsys.com> Tim Hotze Wrote: > Okay... it seems that after several days of discussion of this topic, we have > the following info: (1) The definition is bendable, as circimsances dicatate, > (2) The definition is pretty much fine as it is, but (3) (The BIG one) Many > computers will NOT be significant classics... origionally, as has been pointed > out, the "10 year" rule was to make sure that IBMs weren't included... first the > IBM/PC, then the IBM XT, then the AT, and pretty soon, we'll be getting in to a > time where the words "IBM Compatible" are going to get replaced with "PC." The > fact is, there are just to darn many 386s to contemplate... we have a few > options... (1) Allow only the first/last (IE Deskpro 386 first, I don't know > about last) or there are many others.... but it seems that the correction that I > was trying to push to allow MORE was wrong: It seems that you want LESS... and > when I think about it, it might make sense... for handhelds, the "standard" > won't apply probably (for classics) until around 2010 or so, so they'll remain > in for some time... but anyway, we need to think, or just keep it as it is... > but the "386 problem" is going to be something that we'll have to conquer... and > the days are a commin... Now while I agree with other comments made about keeping contemporary computing discussions out of this mailing list, I have to say that there will always relatively "modern" systems that will be worthy of discussion. The thing about the PC business is its sameness: Innovations and uniqueness (once hallmarks of the computer industry) are heresy -- to be different is certain death (hence the BE Box, RIP). The aim of this group, I think, should be a celebration of the things that made our _favorite_ computing machines unique-- whether it's Babbages difference engine, an S-100 box, an ageing PDP, or a casualty as recent as a Be Box. What I'm getting at is that age shouldn't matter. It the heart that matters. It's hard to become emotionally attached to a PeeCee because one is just like all the others. The heart is attracted to what's different. It revels in uniqueness. It is that uniqueness that has brought us together. Jeff From engine at chac.org Tue Nov 18 12:44:54 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971118104003.00f0b8e0@pop.batnet.com> At 18:20 11/18/97 +0000, Hotze wrote: >....pretty soon, we'll be getting in to a >time where the words "IBM Compatible" are going to get replaced with "PC." The >fact is, there are just too darn many 386s to contemplate... we have a few >options... (1) Allow only the first/last (IE Deskpro 386 first, I don't know >about last).... Nuh uh. ALR 386 first, Compaq second. The ALR 386 is one of the most collectible of all Intel boxes. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Nov 18 08:32:45 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971118065742.00f96a80@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: <199711181928.OAA08800@mail.cgocable.net> > At 09:04 11/18/97 +0000, you wrote: > >I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to > >be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic > >analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal > >either. > > Wellll....I wouldn't mind a fastener that gave me the choice, like some > kind of knurled goodie with a screwdriver slot. That would cover the case > where I'm at someone's house for dinner, and they say "Oh, BTW, my > computer's not working," and I didn't bring a screwdriver and they don't > own a #2 Phillips. Heh, many do not know that phillips size and I tell some techs that you only need 1 and 2 and most computers especially use number 2. And carry 8, 10, 15 and 20 Torx screwdrivers. I love to have at least 1 or 2 screws to take cover off. Once in a while I have to face a midtower with 8 screws on back and few old computers w/ endless screws and poor design as well! UGH. Ok I forgot to tell one thing about ease of use in computers: the Rainbow series. The nice looking computer is NeXT. Troll > __________________________________________ > Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html > Computer History Association of California From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Nov 18 08:32:45 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199711181928.OAA08781@mail.cgocable.net> > > > On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I have what must be the most butt ugly terminal ever made, an old IBM > > thing from the last of the 360 days. It looks like a mishapen lump of > > white metal, with a keyboard that can be best described as "thick" The CRT > > is a strange aspect ratio, something like 1:2. It, however, must be > > the nicest thing in the world to fix (it seems to work, so I have not had Real oddball terminal indeed better save it and use it in meantime. > Nicest thing to work on that I ever saw was a Barco monitor. Access was > from 3 points - undo 2 screws and lift off the top/sides, undo 3 > quarter-turn clips and remove the back panel, and unlock a drawer under > the CRT at the front and slide it out. > > The drawer contains the 2 timebase generators and the convergence panel. > All the controls you need to tweak while watching the screen are at the > front. And as the boards are side-by-side, it's trivial to connect a > 'scope probe to them. > > The video amplifiers and sync cards are in a cardcage across the back. The > PSU cardcage (and mains transformer) mounts on top of them on the right > hand side. On the left hand side are the horizontal output module and the > EHT supply. > > Now, cards in cardcages are in general difficult to work on. But Barco > provide an extender board in the video cardcage (in a spare slot) so you > can work on them > > A Barco TV was nearly as good. Pop the back (4 screws), and there was a > motherboard mounted vertically around the CRT neck. Pull out any of the > plug-in cards, hinge the motherboard down, and plug it into pins on the > solder side of the motherboard. You can now trivially test it. Is that Barco company gone belly up or still existing making new monitors and TV's? And also that shows good design! :) > > > Actually (and I know I am going to get a rotten tomato thrown at me for > > this one), most modern computers (except the PeeCee) are much nicer to > > work on than those from 10 or 20 years ago. The attention to details seems > > I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to > be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic > analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal > either. Oh, Tony, we have to deal 5 or 12 computers a day when things get busy and if the quality is stinker, takes longer to fix so we really appreciate the least number of screws required or useful devices that allows you to remove one or two drive cages by letting go a catch to work on it seperate from case. The low quality cases is so sharp that you can shave with it and also very wobbly without the cover. (I could crush the frame with hands. and I'm not that strong-armed like the weight lifter!) Also some have so bad metal and rough machined screws chew 'em up in short order. Have anyone noticed many fine pitch screws getting less defined and more of rough appearance. Once, I found one blank stem with fully formed head complete with slot! The older computer typically used well made parts so we appreciate them also. Troll > -tony From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Nov 18 08:32:45 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <3471DC72.7F0F32BC@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <199711181928.OAA08785@mail.cgocable.net> Snipped > IBM/PC, then the IBM XT, then the AT, and pretty soon, we'll be getting in to a > time where the words "IBM Compatible" are going to get replaced with "PC." The > fact is, there are just to darn many 386s to contemplate... we have a few > options... (1) Allow only the first/last (IE Deskpro 386 first, I don't know > about last) or there are many others.... but it seems that the correction that I Snipped > won't apply probably (for classics) until around 2010 or so, so they'll remain > in for some time... but anyway, we need to think, or just keep it as it is... > but the "386 problem" is going to be something that we'll have to conquer... and > the days are a commin... > Tim D. Hotze Truth. Problem is you have to see that IBM did not get there first on that 386 because in past, especially 8088 and 8086 when IBM developed either PC or XT the lead time was about 2 or 3 years apart between first introduced chips and the actual IBM machines, same thing with AT machine until Compaq started off with under 1 year lead time after Intel started cranking out those '386. Since then, introduced chips and actual computers have shortened to nothing. Therefore we give the award of having old computer status to that compaq Deskpro 386? Troll From dastar at wco.com Tue Nov 18 13:45:07 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <199711181928.OAA08781@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Oh, Tony, we have to deal 5 or 12 computers a day when things get > busy and if the quality is stinker, takes longer to fix so we really > appreciate the least number of screws required or useful devices that > allows you to remove one or two drive cages by letting go a catch to People have already mentioned the Lisa which indeed has a beautiful design. The Apple II design was also very elegant...just pop the hood and you're in. > work on it seperate from case. The low quality cases is so sharp > that you can shave with it and also very wobbly without the cover. (I I've bled on several occasions because of the el-cheapo "made in china" PC cases. > could crush the frame with hands. and I'm not that strong-armed like > the weight lifter!) Also some have so bad metal and rough machined > screws chew 'em up in short order. Have anyone noticed many fine > pitch screws getting less defined and more of rough appearance. > Once, I found one blank stem with fully formed head complete with > slot! The older computer typically used well made parts so we > appreciate them also. The IBM PC used finely machined screws. The quality of cases diminished much from the original design. However, there has a been a trend towards a better designed PC case, one that is sturdier, easier to take apart/put together (some not requiring screws for this) and fits together tightly. They still have a way to go though before they acheive the ease of access that the Apple II afforded you. When will they learn not to fix what's not broken? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From manney at nwohio.com Mon Nov 17 12:23:53 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711182120.NAA19965@mx3.u.washington.edu> > Age, also, alone, does not make a classic. I doubt that the standard >run-of-the-mill '386 PeeCee will ever amount to anything except to, >perhaps, archaeologists who dig one out of a landfill. There were too >many of them made, and they were (are) regarded as "disposable". Look >at the construction - modern machines aren't made to be repaired any >more than a disposable cigarette lighter is made to be refilled. They >burn out, you toss' em, and buy another one. Well, not quite. You'll have a motherboard problem with Packard Bell, Compaq and the like -- but many use "generic" motherboards; thus a Baby AT case would fit anything from a 286 to a Pentium whatever (btw, shouldn't a P5 be called a Pentium Pro Lite?) Floppy disks, of course, have been standardized since the original PC, both in interface and form factor; EIDE/SCSI for hard disks, IDE for CD-ROM's. I upgrade PC's much of the time (probably sell 10 used systems/upgrades to 1 new system) and can tell you that upgrading _is_ viable in the PC world. From manney at nwohio.com Mon Nov 17 11:55:27 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... Message-ID: <199711182120.NAA19724@mx2.u.washington.edu> >And so, the dilemma... do I open the disks and crank this critter up? Or >just pack it all away as another classic 'artifact'? (or leave it until I >have a fair amount of time to spend with it) Open it up -- play with it -- computers are meant to be _used_. From manney at nwohio.com Mon Nov 17 12:29:28 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711182120.NAA19731@mx2.u.washington.edu> > another weird feature on Wyse 286 that can show time and >date, mhz display like 8mhz, 12mhz and backlighted! :) Hey, I just had one of those come in for repair! The hard drive table aldo has double digit numbers, something I've never seen before. From manney at nwohio.com Mon Nov 17 12:11:40 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711182120.NAA26216@mx4.u.washington.edu> >Well, what did the PC/AT have that the PC/XT didn't? 1.2MB >minifloppies (although I saw those retrofit onto XT-class PCs), 16-bit >slots, a cascaded interrupt controller to handle the additional >interrupt request lines...and the A20 gate that let you get at another >little chunk of RAM up above the 1MB boundary while still in real >mode. ...and the hard drive info in ROM. But, you're right. The 286-386 jump was more significant than the 8088-286 jump, even though so of those 286 changes that you mentioned are still with us that Pentiums are "AT" (not 386) class machines. From manney at nwohio.com Mon Nov 17 12:05:42 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Accumulation Squad Message-ID: <199711182120.NAA17805@mx5.u.washington.edu> >Hey, for years one of the standard excuses for getting a home computer >was "Hey, we can keep recipes on it". For that of course, you really >want a membrane keyboard -- pasta sauce in a Keytronics is fatal. I always _loved_ seeing the adverts of smiling Mom (no flour on her hands, natch!) booting up the family PC to get her recipes. Some of those early recipe programs would specify oddities such as "5/48 tsp chives". > >And _of course_ a similarly protected laptop belongs in the bathroom, >when you're setting down to do some serious Usenet reading. Hey, I used to program in the bath with my HP-71! From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Nov 18 15:29:53 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB206F390B9@red-65-msg.dns.microsoft.com> As I recall, there's a little app around someplace that allows you to put whatever you want on the Wyse front panel display. > -----Original Message----- > From: PG Manney [SMTP:manney@nwohio.com] > Sent: Monday, November 17, 1997 10:29 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: New Definiton REQUIRED > > > another weird feature on Wyse 286 that can show time and > >date, mhz display like 8mhz, 12mhz and backlighted! :) > > Hey, I just had one of those come in for repair! The hard drive table aldo > has double digit numbers, something I've never seen before. > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 18 15:51:45 1997 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Intro msg: Teraks, emulators, reviving cassette data Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971118155145.00a7d7f0@pc> I'd like to introduce myself to the list. I maintain the somewhat imaginary "Jefferson Computer Museum" at , which has info about my several Terak systems. The Terak was a PDP-11/03-based graphics workstation circa 1978-85. My "Terak Museum" web page is the proud recipient of the "Geek Site of the Day" award for October 16, 1996. I also have historical info about the UCSD P-System, including an emulator, source code and very early Pascal compilers. In the months to come, I will add info about other systems I have, including a Zilog MCZ Z-80 development system, CBM PET and NEC systems. I've also been given permission by Claus Giloi to distribute the C source to his Windows-based Altair and IMSAI emulators. If you haven't seen this, it's a nifty graphical recreation, letting you click on the toggle switches to drive the emulator and watch the LEDs blink. In the years to come, I'd like to enhance it to include virtual peripherals, or with inexpensive recreations like an opto paper tape reader. Recently, I've been researching the possibility of reviving old audio cassette tape storage of computer data. With today's PC audio digitizers and a little software, it should be possible to decode and synthesize tapes in formats such as Tarbell tapes for S-100 systems, 88-ACR, Commodore PET, VIC and C-64, Bell 103 recordings, etc. A software approach would have several advantages: you don't need the original hardware, and it has a better chance of restoring out-of-spec data. A little digging revealed the "soundmodem", a driver for Linux and DOS that is a software-based FSK modem that can handle 300 to 9600 baud in real-time using a SoundBlaster as the digitizer / DSP. It is used by ham radio operators. To experiment, I digitized an old wobbly CBM PET tape and did a bit of post-processing in contemporary sound software and it normalized the volume quite well. I suspect with commercial audio software, one could even invoke filters to remove print-through. At 22 or 44 kHz mono 8-bit samples, there's certainly enough headroom to distinguish these relatively slow-speed signals. I'm sure with some formats, just watching the zero-crossing timing would work. I wonder if this technique could be used to rescue old N-track reel tapes that have become unreadable over the years, by intercepting, digitizing, and post-processing the tape-head signal. What would help the most is to get specifications for the old standards. I don't have any documentation, although I'm digging through the basement to find my old Kilobauds. I sent an e-mail to Don Tarbell, who is apparently still on the Internet, but no response so far. It would also help to see more samples! If you have any old cassettes, please consider digitizing them and sending them to me. In another area of the JCM, I've begun to collect ancient ASCII art from the 60s and 70s: Einstein, Spock, Snoopy, etc. I've written a program that converts teletype-style overstrike art into Adobe Illustrator documents, which are easy to re-size and print on today's laser printers. I have dozens of pictures from DECUS tapes, but I'm always looking for more, and I'd like to record personal anecdotes about the creation of these old artworks. I'd also like to get an actual print sample of the entire printable font from an ASR-33 teletype, in order to scan and convert it into an authentic Postscript bitmap font. - John From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 18 16:02:21 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <199711182120.NAA19965@mx3.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Nov 17, 97 01:23:53 pm Message-ID: <9711182202.AA21734@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 705 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971118/f2aae44d/attachment.ksh From engine at chac.org Tue Nov 18 16:20:11 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971118142006.00f093c0@pop.batnet.com> At 14:02 11/18/97 -0800, Tim wrote: >.... Some drives have even removed the >drive select jumper options, forcing you to use the half-baked concept >of a cable with a twist in the middle. Half-baked, yet burned. ____________________________________________________________ Kip Crosby, honcho, mechanic and sole proprietor, Kip's Garage http://www.kipsgarage.com: rumors, tech tips and philosophy for the trenches Coming Spring '98: The Windows 98 Bible by Kip Crosby and Fred Davis! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 18 16:25:01 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971118142006.00f093c0@pop.batnet.com> from "Kip Crosby" at Nov 18, 97 02:20:11 pm Message-ID: <9711182225.AA22642@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 443 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971118/a345bd20/attachment.ksh From rcini at email.msn.com Tue Nov 18 17:30:42 1997 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 Message-ID: <07eba09322312b7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> What do you think of this... I have a guy in Jacksonville FL with a Heathkit H11 system. CPU, dual 8" disk drive unit, all software and manuals. Cost of shipping (to NY). Is the H11 just a repackaged PDP-11?? What else can you tell me about it? Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin! Charter Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Networking From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 18 17:45:36 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:40 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 In-Reply-To: <07eba09322312b7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> from "Richard Cini" at Nov 18, 97 06:30:42 pm Message-ID: <9711182345.AA31412@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 634 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971118/fad7dc71/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 17 22:50:41 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971117180029.520f9b24@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >At 09:22 AM 11/17/97 -0600, you wrote: >Any other thoughts on case designs? I still think the Lisa was beautiful, >and I'll have to check out the 3b1. The Lisa is definitly a very cool design, both interior and exterior wise, although the mouse and keyboard are a bit too blocky. Personally I think some of the cooliest designs are the 68k based Atari's. The perfect example is my Atari TT030. Couple the case design with TOS, the ROM based windowed OS, and you've got a cool design. The only down sides are TOS's single task nature, and the mouse again. I like the Amiga 500 and 1200 because of their amazing expandibility in such a small case. Of course you end up with a maze of cables. I also agree that the Mac's like the IIcx are a great design, the way they pop apart. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Nov 18 17:55:12 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 In-Reply-To: <07eba09322312b7UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Richard Cini wrote: > What do you think of this... > > I have a guy in Jacksonville FL with a Heathkit H11 system. CPU, dual 8" > disk drive unit, all software and manuals. Cost of shipping (to NY). > > Is the H11 just a repackaged PDP-11?? What else can you tell me about > it? Well... the 'standard' H-11 had a DEC 11/03 (quad wide) cpu card in it, and from there on it was full of Heath cards that were just different enough to make life real interesting. It does however have a standard 18 bit backplane, so many folk installed more 'normal' DEC cards as time went on. The Heath disk system did have the virtue of being able to format (really) blank disks, unlike the DEC floppy sub-system, and was RX-01 media compatable in one mode, and also added a Heath double-density mode which was not really compatable with much of anything else... (AIR) Heath distributed a slightly mutated (drivers mostly) version of RT-11 that they dubbed 'HT-11' to support the Heath peripherals. If you are getting the software, it should not be a problem. The H-27 disk sub-system is *heavy* (I've got one in the collection) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Nov 18 18:50:50 1997 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <658789F5353B@ifrsys.com> References: <658789F5353B@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <348f3568.684441915@hoser> How about making the rule something to the effect of "Systems older than 20 years, or which were actively produced for less than _x_ (2?) years running" ? Too complicated? At least it would cover almost all of the "unique" machines. If they were made for more than 2 years, they probably didn't end up being all that unique, because there would be lots of them, and probably clones to boot, if they were that successful. I agree with Jeff in that the thing that makes most of the systems "special" to me is the fact that not everybody could just go down to the local Best Buy/Circuit City/Sears store, buy one, plug it in, and use it. It took some determination, some ingenuity, and a real love of the whole concept of computers and computing. On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:20:03 -0600, "Jeff Kaneko" wrote: >Now while I agree with other comments made about keeping contemporary >computing discussions out of this mailing list, I have to say that >there will always relatively "modern" systems that will be worthy of >discussion. > >The thing about the PC business is its sameness: Innovations and >uniqueness (once hallmarks of the computer industry) are heresy -- to >be different is certain death (hence the BE Box, RIP). > >The aim of this group, I think, should be a celebration of the things >that made our _favorite_ computing machines unique-- whether it's >Babbages difference engine, an S-100 box, an ageing PDP, or a >casualty as recent as a Be Box. > -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Nov 18 19:39:02 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definition REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <348f3568.684441915@hoser> References: <658789F5353B@ifrsys.com> <658789F5353B@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971118203902.00967510@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Bill Richman said: >How about making the rule something to the effect of "Systems older >than 20 years, or which were actively produced for less than _x_ (2?) >years running" ? Too complicated? Worse than just complicated... I own 15 classic machines, and I seriously doubt any of them would fall under that rule... >At least it would cover almost all >of the "unique" machines. If they were made for more than 2 years, >they probably didn't end up being all that unique, because there would >be lots of them, and probably clones to boot, if they were that >successful. Since when would a CoCo 1/2/3 be a clone??? They're rather unique (uses the MC6809, had a realtime, multiprocessing, multiprogramming OS available for it... etc.) How about the MC-10? Only computer on the market (that I know of) to use the MC6803 processor, etc. The Tandy 600 -- first laptop with a built-in floppy... Atari ST series-- first computer (again, that I know of) that came with MIDI ports as standard equipment... Amiga series -- first computer to come with a voice generator as standard equipment... What's _your_ definition of unique? Even with all my systems, I would have to sorrowfully say goodbye to the list... :-( > I agree with Jeff in that the thing that makes most of >the systems "special" to me is the fact that not everybody could just >go down to the local Best Buy/Circuit City/Sears store, buy one, plug >it in, and use it. It took some determination, some ingenuity, and a >real love of the whole concept of computers and computing. Yea, but 10-15 years ago, anyone could go down to their local Radio Shack store (and no, we don't have a BB/CC/Sears, but we *had* a RS), buy a CoCo, plug it in, and use it. Should those of us with CoCo's (which, again, are unique machines) be excluded from the list just because they were mass-produced and/or they were the longest-running 8-bit home computer? I'm in wholehearted agreement that this list shouldn't become a PeeCee wannabe list... However, if it became a DG-centric list, or a Vax-only list, or.... well, I'd have to go, and the list would lose a lot of flavor in my eyes, and I'd move on. Anyway, there's my opinion of your rule modification...... As far as I'm concerned, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Nov 18 20:23:36 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971118182115.0b07072c@ricochet.net> At 09:04 AM 11/18/97 +0000, you wrote: >I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to >be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic >analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal It's not so much for *fixing* as it is for *upgrading*. If you want to swap in a new floppy drive or add memory or what-have-you, it's much easier on some computers than others. S-100's were great in some respects -- just lift the ears and the boards pop right out. Or, drop 'em in the channels and they slide right in. The Mac 8500AV, on the other hand, requires nearly a complete disassembly just to add some memory. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Nov 18 20:23:40 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971118182120.4e6f86d0@ricochet.net> At 06:57 AM 11/18/97 -0800, you wrote: >At 09:04 11/18/97 +0000, you wrote: >>I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to >>be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic >>analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal Another thought... I've not yet figured out how to squeeze >24 hours in a day, and I've got about 54 hours worth of stuff to do every day, so anything that saves a little time is welcome. >where I'm at someone's house for dinner, and they say "Oh, BTW, my >computer's not working," and I didn't bring a screwdriver and they don't >own a #2 Phillips. Some people (esp. on this list) may not realize it, but there are actually hordes of people out there who go their entire lives without ever owning a single screwdriver. Which is why I've got two in/on my laptop case, several in my laptop "kit", and a swiss army knife with a flat sd, phillips sd, pliers, and (8^) corkscrew. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Tue Nov 18 20:23:43 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971118182123.48cffaa8@ricochet.net> At 06:20 PM 11/18/97 +0000, you wrote: >the following info: (1) The definition is bendable, as circimsances dicatate, >(2) The definition is pretty much fine as it is, but (3) (The BIG one) Many Ultimately, the definition is up to Bill Whitson. If people start talking about stuff he's not interested in, or that he doesn't feel to be the provenance of this list, he'll a) warn people, b) unsubscribe people, or c) shut the list down. So personally, because I certainly don't want b) or c) to happen, and I'd rather a) didn't have to, I'll stick to the topics Bill had in mind when creating this list. If I'm really desperate to talk about which 486 motherboards are collectible, I'll start my own collect486 list. >computers will NOT be significant classics... origionally, as has been pointed >out, the "10 year" rule was to make sure that IBMs weren't included... first the I think it was set so as to avoid current/mainstream computer support questions. (Which I'm sure most of the people on this list could answer, but that's not why they've subscribed to this list.) The (admittedly debateable) position that generic PC's are *not* significant/collectible/etc. and thusly are not the provenance of this list is a (IMO) welcome side effect. (Note: some pc's *are* significant or collectible -- lots of portables, the corner case one (packard bell?), monorails, Kip's Rose Hill PC (to Kip), etc. -- they're just not the focus of this list.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Tue Nov 18 20:50:18 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <658789F5353B@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: > The thing about the PC business is its sameness: Innovations and > uniqueness (once hallmarks of the computer industry) are heresy -- to > be different is certain death (hence the BE Box, RIP). Well, yes, the last point there is very true. One should, however, look at something more that just what is available at CompUSA. The worlds of the Unix (or whatever) workstation and the PeeCee are really not very far apart, yet the workstation market thrives on innovation. > The aim of this group, I think, should be a celebration of the things > that made our _favorite_ computing machines unique-- whether it's > Babbages difference engine, an S-100 box, an ageing PDP, or a > casualty as recent as a Be Box. Maybe this should be the dead architecture list. That would still block out the PeeCee and Mac. I do have one thought about the PeeCee and how collectable it may or may not be in the future. I am not counting historic significance, as it probably is one the top of the list. The desktop systems, made by the big names or the small names, may never be collectable or classic, but I certainly can see laptops being very collectable. Transistor radios of the late 1950s and early 1960s, like the PeeCee, are mostly all of the same, full of crummy engineering and little innovation, yet there is a huge market for the things. Why? They were small, often kitchy, and "all the rage", just as laptops are now. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dwalterm at ix.netcom.com Tue Nov 18 21:10:46 1997 From: dwalterm at ix.netcom.com (dwalterm@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: Info? HP1000 F series Message-ID: <1997111822140319169@> James Willing wrote: > While wandering around one of my favourite surplus gear haunts today, I cam > across a couple of HP 1000 F series minicomputers. While they look neat, I > know just about nothing about them. Anyone out there familiar enough with > them to give me the 'infamous 25 words or less' speech on their significance? They're real-time control systems, based around the 21MX processor family (which succeeded the 2100 (ca. 1972) and 211[456] (ca. 1967)) and running one of several flavors of HP's RTE operating system. I've never actually used them. I worked on them for years.... You will still find them in Nuclear Power Plant control rooms, all phases of automotive testing and even handling online ATM transactions. The E series was even used as a fast front end for Burroughs mainframes. Also lots of military applications. The front panel/door drops down to show the memory backplane. The top three boards are the two channel DMA, Memory Protect and MEM (Memory Expansion Controller). This was needed if you wanted to use more than 32K of memory. The back backplane was for the I/O cards. Near the bottom is the TBG (Time Base Generator). The Model 2117F had more slots and the hardware floating point processor was a separate box. The more rare version had the Floating Point boards built into the top of the regular case. This meant a loss of memory and I/O slots.... These systems had all kinds of I/O available from paper tape puches/readers to mag tapes to all kinds of hard disk drives, floppies, terminals, A/D, other instrumentation, etc. Later they had SCSI and various proprietary and standard networking. Lots of great memories :-) From william at ans.net Tue Nov 18 21:11:41 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Intro msg: Teraks, emulators, reviving cassette data In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971118155145.00a7d7f0@pc> Message-ID: > In another area of the JCM, I've begun to collect ancient ASCII art > from the 60s and 70s: Einstein, Spock, Snoopy, etc. I've written a > program that converts teletype-style overstrike art into Adobe Illustrator > documents, which are easy to re-size and print on today's laser printers. > > I have dozens of pictures from DECUS tapes, but I'm always looking for > more, and I'd like to record personal anecdotes about the creation > of these old artworks. I'd also like to get an actual print sample > of the entire printable font from an ASR-33 teletype, in order to > scan and convert it into an authentic Postscript bitmap font. I think there still are a few RTTY nuts out there that trade ASCII (Baudot?) art over the air. This was quite a big thing in ham radio quite a few years back. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Nov 18 21:21:29 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The IBM PC used finely machined screws. The quality of cases diminished > much from the original design. I think they reached their pinnacle with the PS/2s. Those machines really are well designed. Later IBMs, like the Valuepoints, well, suck. Also, the really cheap PeeCees use screws that are stamped, and not turned. This is one of the reasons that fine threads are still used. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Tue Nov 18 17:01:26 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199711190356.WAA10934@mail.cgocable.net> > > The IBM PC used finely machined screws. The quality of cases diminished > > much from the original design. > > I think they reached their pinnacle with the PS/2s. Those machines really > are well designed. Later IBMs, like the Valuepoints, well, suck. > > Also, the really cheap PeeCees use screws that are stamped, and not > turned. This is one of the reasons that fine threads are still used. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Uh huh... not true. Actual production of screws comes in gress what? Roll of wire! Snipped to short lengths by shear action then fed to 2 or 3 machines then in the end is screws. All, I can say so all screws produced except for very specialized needs are rolled formed using hardened thread plate that impresses the thread into blanks. The heads with slots or whichever are deformed first in one step then roll the thread. Problem arises when quality control comes in. If the lube and quality, speed, quality of blanks metals are poor, you get malformed screws and bad threads. Some screws are plated as well. Actually top quality rolled screws are much better than machined screws and much cheaper too, also stronger because metal grain is still intact. Troll From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Nov 19 00:58:11 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED References: <658789F5353B@ifrsys.com> <348f3568.684441915@hoser> Message-ID: <34728E02.D39866BA@batelco.com.bh> Yeah, but you've gotta think that if you took the Mac line as one computer, in my opinion, that would get rid of what I think is about what the industry's about: Invention. You know, that if Apple had put the cameras in their computers a few years ago like they were soupossed to, we wouldn't have to be dealing with that problem now? (It would have gone like this: Apple puts a mouse in.... the computer industy calls it a "childs toy" type computer... claims to hate it... behind the scenes, PC makers start to say "Anyone here have a mouse design?", well, this would be "Hey, anyone here know where we can get a good camera?"... they hate it, then love it.) Tim D. Hotze Bill Richman wrote: > How about making the rule something to the effect of "Systems older > than 20 years, or which were actively produced for less than _x_ (2?) > years running" ? Too complicated? At least it would cover almost all > of the "unique" machines. If they were made for more than 2 years, > they probably didn't end up being all that unique, because there would > be lots of them, and probably clones to boot, if they were that > successful. I agree with Jeff in that the thing that makes most of > the systems "special" to me is the fact that not everybody could just > go down to the local Best Buy/Circuit City/Sears store, buy one, plug > it in, and use it. It took some determination, some ingenuity, and a > real love of the whole concept of computers and computing. > > On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:20:03 -0600, "Jeff Kaneko" > wrote: > > >Now while I agree with other comments made about keeping contemporary > >computing discussions out of this mailing list, I have to say that > >there will always relatively "modern" systems that will be worthy of > >discussion. > > > >The thing about the PC business is its sameness: Innovations and > >uniqueness (once hallmarks of the computer industry) are heresy -- to > >be different is certain death (hence the BE Box, RIP). > > > >The aim of this group, I think, should be a celebration of the things > >that made our _favorite_ computing machines unique-- whether it's > >Babbages difference engine, an S-100 box, an ageing PDP, or a > >casualty as recent as a Be Box. > > > > > -Bill Richman > bill_r@inetnebr.com > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. > When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. > When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. > Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." > -www.paranoia.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 18 22:14:37 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711190414.AA08671@world.std.com> From: bill_r@inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) from "Mark Tapley" at Nov 18, 97 10:18:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1445 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971119/073b77c9/attachment.ksh From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Nov 19 00:21:50 1997 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <199711190414.AA08671@world.std.com> References: <199711190414.AA08671@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3492840f.704577328@hoser> It was a _suggestion_. That's why I said "something to the effect of" and " _x_ (2?) years". I never implied the definition was perfect as it stood. Besides, I said "OR which were actively produced for less than (2) years", not "AND". So if the LINC is over 20 years old, it's in, regardless of how long it was produced. Were the others you mentioned all produced for more than 2 years running? Sometimes I "Really" think that the only place you'd find more attitude than in this group would be in a flock of "Valley Girls". On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:14:37 -0500, you wrote: >From: bill_r@inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) > > >Really. Lets see the LINC was over twenty years ago and made for more >than two years. There are very few of them. Back then (64-66ish) a >couple dozen were a lot of any machine! It would also eliminate the >Altair, Imsai, KIM-1, PDP-8 and a few others. > >It doesn't work. > >Allison -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Nov 19 00:42:28 1997 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definition REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971118203902.00967510@mail.northernway.net> References: <658789F5353B@ifrsys.com> <658789F5353B@ifrsys.com> <3.0.3.32.19971118203902.00967510@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <34938603.705076886@hoser> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:39:02 -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Bill Richman said: >>How about making the rule something to the effect of "Systems older >>than 20 years, or which were actively produced for less than _x_ (2?) >>years running" ? Too complicated? > >Worse than just complicated... I own 15 classic machines, and I seriously >doubt any of them would fall under that rule... > >>At least it would cover almost all >>of the "unique" machines. If they were made for more than 2 years, >>they probably didn't end up being all that unique, because there would >>be lots of them, and probably clones to boot, if they were that >>successful. > >Since when would a CoCo 1/2/3 be a clone??? They're rather unique (uses the >MC6809, had a realtime, multiprocessing, multiprogramming OS available for >it... etc.) Did I say they would? I said "If they were made for more than 2 years... there'd be lots of them, and probably clones". How long was each of those models manufactured? More than 2 years? > >How about the MC-10? Only computer on the market (that I know of) to use >the MC6803 processor, etc. > >The Tandy 600 -- first laptop with a built-in floppy... > >Atari ST series-- first computer (again, that I know of) that came with >MIDI ports as standard equipment... > >Amiga series -- first computer to come with a voice generator as standard >equipment... > >What's _your_ definition of unique? Even with all my systems, I would have >to sorrowfully say goodbye to the list... :-( I guess it depends on your point of view. My collection includes: IMSAI 8080 (which I built when they first came out), NorthStar Horizon, KIM-1, MC-10, Compaq luggable, H-89s, Timex-Sinclair 1000s, CoCos, PC-Juniors, C-64s, VIC-20s, Panasonic Pocket Computers, many varieties of PC and XT, Tandy 1000, TRS-80 Model 1's (with the voice synthesizer in the silver particle-board box!), some Zenith laptops, Mac 128, Mac Plus, and a bunch of mechanical and discrete-transistor calculators from Friden, Victor, HP, TI, etc. I'm not here to argue over the validity of the technology - just to enjoy the company of others who love the stuff as much as I do. I suppose now that they're no longer produced, my Virtual Boy, i-glasses, and Power Glove will be "classics" someday too. Most of the things in my collection are "unique" in some way; I thought the discussion was about how to verbally define what it is we talk about here in 10 words or less. (By the way - does anyone remember the Tandy Computers 1978 catalog with the Z-80 chip picture on the front? The one with the Vector 1, IMSAI, Xitan, Equinox, Poly 88, Sol, SWTPC, Intecolor, and other S-100 goodies in it? I found the one I've been saving for the last 19 years just the other day - I'd forgotten about it. And does anyone have an Intecolor in their collection?) -Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "When they took the fourth amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs. When they took the sixth amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent. When they took the second amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun. Now they've taken the first amendment, and I can say nothing about it." -www.paranoia.com From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Wed Nov 19 06:36:14 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definition REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <34938603.705076886@hoser> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Bill Richman wrote: > >Since when would a CoCo 1/2/3 be a clone??? They're rather unique (uses the > >MC6809, had a realtime, multiprocessing, multiprogramming OS available for > >it... etc.) > > Did I say they would? I said "If they were made for more than 2 > years... there'd be lots of them, and probably clones". How long was > each of those models manufactured? More than 2 years? The CoCo line was produced for over 10 years. Since there were only 3 models, one of them had to have been produced for > 2 years. > >What's _your_ definition of unique? Even with all my systems, I would have > >to sorrowfully say goodbye to the list... :-( Problem with the 20years definition is that it excludes a heck of a lot of machines that most people call 'classics'. Can you honestly say that the first commercial graphics workstation (the PERQ), which came out in 1979 and was built until 1985 is not a classic. What about all the VAXen (11/780 was 1978-ish). Using the new definition (older than 20 years or produced for < 2 years) would (a) cut out 90% of _my_ collection (about the only thing left would be minicomputers) and (b) would include a lot of PC-clones (which seem to change every other month). I mean, how long is the average name-brand PC-clone sold for before it gets a new spec. A lot less than 2 years, I'd bet. I don't think you can justify lumping all PC-clones together under the common title '486-based PC-clone boxen' or whatever unless you also lump all (say) S100 boxes together as well. And that would be plain stupid. > -Bill Richman -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Wed Nov 19 06:41:34 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971118065742.00f96a80@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Kip Crosby wrote: > Wellll....I wouldn't mind a fastener that gave me the choice, like some > kind of knurled goodie with a screwdriver slot. That would cover the case I can't stand knurled-head screws without a screwdriver slot. Those darn things are always too tight to undo by hand, and grabbing them with pliers often marks the surface. Actually I _like_ TORX screws, etc. They are easy to engage on the screwdriver, don't 'cam out' (like a Phillips), don't slide out (like a normal screwdriver), stay on the end of the tool, etc. > where I'm at someone's house for dinner, and they say "Oh, BTW, my > computer's not working," and I didn't bring a screwdriver and they don't > own a #2 Phillips. And just what are you coing to do when you've pulled the cover? Unless it's just a board/cable that needs reseating you're going to need some test equipment, a soldering iron, etc anyway. I have _never_ been anywhere with that sort of equipment and not had a screwdriver with me. Heck, if I was in somebody else's house I'd probably have my trusty Leatherman with me. > Kip Crosby engine@chac.org -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Wed Nov 19 06:48:35 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <199711181928.OAA08800@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: > > where I'm at someone's house for dinner, and they say "Oh, BTW, my > > computer's not working," and I didn't bring a screwdriver and they don't > > own a #2 Phillips. > Heh, many do not know that phillips size and I tell some techs that > you only need 1 and 2 and most computers especially use Eh? You _only_ need 1 and 2? I've got (and used for computer repair) 000, 00, 0, 1, 2, 3. Never needed anything bigger. Then there's pozidriv (got 0,1,2,3), JIS (subtly different from Philips, so it's best to have the right tool), Torq (like an ofset Philips), etc. I must have over 100 different screw removal tools. > number 2. And carry 8, 10, 15 and 20 Torx screwdrivers. Add to that list a #6 and #9 Torx, Allen keys (including 9/64" which is not in most sets sold in the UK), tamperproof Torx (if you want to open monitors and PSUs), etc. Oh, a set of nutdrivers (at least the 3/16" and 1/4" sizes) will fit the screws used in the original PC family and are a lot easier to handle than a flat-blade screwdriver. > I love to have at least 1 or 2 screws to take cover off. Once in a > while I have to face a midtower with 8 screws on back and few old > computers w/ endless screws and poor design as well! UGH. Never worked on a DECSA (a terminal server from the early 1980's), right? That thing is crazy. Most bits come out with (at most) a couple of screws, but if you want to remove the fan tray (needed to get the backplane out), you have to remove a plate over it first. Said plate is held down my _28_ screws! > > Ok I forgot to tell one thing about ease of use in computers: the > Rainbow series. The nice looking computer is NeXT. The Rainbow, Pro series and DECmate 2 are very easy to pull to bits, agreed. I once dismantled one on a train, much to the amazement of the people sitting near me. > > Troll -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Wed Nov 19 06:56:04 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <199711181928.OAA08781@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: [...] > > A Barco TV was nearly as good. Pop the back (4 screws), and there was a > > motherboard mounted vertically around the CRT neck. Pull out any of the > > plug-in cards, hinge the motherboard down, and plug it into pins on the > > solder side of the motherboard. You can now trivially test it. > Is that Barco company gone belly up or still existing making new > monitors and TV's? And also that shows good design! :) They're still going. Their modern stuff is not _as good_, but it's still very well built. Oh, and the electronic design is up to the same high standards. I don't know if they ever built NTSC televisions (they're based in Belgium), but I _know_ their RGB monitors can work at USA scan rates (well, the TV-rate ones, anyway - they make a lot of different models, including IIRC VGA, etc), and I would think their professional video monitors certainly come in NTSC versions. Be warned that they're not cheap. And their spares (while available) are also very expensive. > > I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to > > be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic > > analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal > > either. > > Oh, Tony, we have to deal 5 or 12 computers a day when things get I was not claiming that all modern cases were bad or anything like that. It's just that these quick-release clips are often nothing of the sort (_some_ are good), and you spend longer fiddling with those than it would have taken to undo a couple of screws. > work on it seperate from case. The low quality cases is so sharp > that you can shave with it and also very wobbly without the cover. (I > could crush the frame with hands. and I'm not that strong-armed like > the weight lifter!) Also some have so bad metal and rough machined Oh, agreed. I've seen some really bad build quality in no-name PCs - and I don't like it. I also like well-engineered cases - ones that I could stand on if necessary, ones that don't remove the skin from my hands when I reach in to flip a DIP switch or pull a card, etc. -tony From dastar at wco.com Wed Nov 19 07:07:06 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED In-Reply-To: <3492840f.704577328@hoser> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Bill Richman wrote: > mentioned all produced for more than 2 years running? Sometimes I > "Really" think that the only place you'd find more attitude than in > this group would be in a flock of "Valley Girls". Ok, I think the point is that the current rule works amazingly well and that no matter of tinkering will make it any better. Its bendable, the exceptions are tolerable, and everyone is happy. Time to drop it. And Bill, don't take any offense. People were just expressing what they thought of your proposal. You'll know when you should be offended. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Nov 19 08:08:48 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711191408.AA02275@world.std.com> Message-ID: I'm auctioning off my Jupiter ACE: http://kreeft.intmed.mcw.edu/auction.html Let me know if you have any problems. - Ron Kneusel rkneusel@mcw.edu From engine at chac.org Wed Nov 19 10:09:47 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971119080722.0101b400@pop.batnet.com> At 12:48 11/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >The Rainbow, Pro series and DECmate 2 are very easy to pull to bits, >agreed. I once dismantled one on a train, much to the amazement of the >people sitting near me. ROTFL! Only you, Tony, or at the very least, you first among equals. ____________________________________________________________ Kip Crosby, honcho, mechanic and sole proprietor, Kip's Garage http://www.kipsgarage.com: rumors, tech tips and philosophy for the trenches Coming Spring '98: The Windows 98 Bible by Kip Crosby and Fred Davis! From engine at chac.org Wed Nov 19 10:09:46 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19971119080521.00f00240@pop.batnet.com> At 12:41 11/19/97 +0000, ARD wrote: >> where I'm at someone's house for dinner, and they say "Oh, BTW, my >> computer's not working," and I didn't bring a screwdriver and they don't >> own a #2 Phillips. > >And just what are you going to do when you've pulled the cover? Unless >it's just a board/cable that needs reseating you're going to need some >test equipment, a soldering iron, etc., anyway. I have _never_ been anywhere >with that sort of equipment and not had a screwdriver with me. > >Heck, if I was in somebody else's house I'd probably have my trusty >Leatherman with me. Certainly I take your point, but the context here is one of unrivaled banality. Your "just a board/cable that needs reseating" covers about 90% of the "emergencies" of this type that come anywhere near me. Both 5.25 floppies and MFM hard disks have connectors that loosen spontaneously. IDE "controllers" pop out of their sockets, for some reason. And there was always the lady who thought her computer "didn't work" because the connector to the hard disk LED had popped off -- even though that was all that was wrong. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Wed Nov 19 10:11:20 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <199711191451.AA12250@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > there is some truth and a fair amount of fiction. Some of the older > stuff was overbuilt and it cost. The Barco had everything out front > for a reason, when was the last time you have to converge a new monitor? The last time I successfully converged a new monitor is never (What? Rock the yoke and wedge it in place with wedges with the power on??? Not me!). The last time I saw a modern SVGA monitor on a PC that had such bad converegence that it gave me eye strain was 2 days ago. Had that been my Barco I'd have pulled out the drawer and had it working again in a couple of minutes. Yes, it's overengineered, but I don't see a problem in that. This particular Barco is ex-TV studio (actually, AFAIK it's off the BBC's weather satellite display system). It came to me in very poor condition - kludged to hell, but it just about worked. Fixing it as per the manual got it back to rights - and for all it's 15 years old there are few modern monitors that I would swap it for. > Some of the older stuff that was a fairly common adjustment. Alos how Sure, on a delta-gun CRT (which this is) you have to converge it in the position that it has to be used. > much of the stuff made before say 1983/4 would pass FCC/DOC/TUV RF > radiation requiments. I think this monitor would. But I'd not want to have to get an RK11-C or a DX11 through any EMC tests - an uncased flip-chip backplane will (I suspect) radiate like mad. > In addition you pay for weight, in shipping, cost of materials and > sometimes time to produce. Hmmm... I am prepared to pay that price for better build quality. Weight (of a fixed machine) is no problem at all. As as regards the cost, I for one would gladly spend a few hundred dollars/pounds more to get quality. I am fed up with designs that have saved <$1 of parts (so say $10 by the time you've included the extra production costs) that don't work properly. I generally have to redesign it in the end anyway. > Allison -tony From photze at batelco.com.bh Wed Nov 19 13:22:19 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it References: Message-ID: <34733C68.461A1ED2@batelco.com.bh> Okay... I started all this stuff... and I'll end it... it *was* a mistake.... but now, at least we know that until something BIG happens, the 10 yr. definition is safe... but I don't think that anyone (At least I wouldn't) would get really mad at someone who makes a reference to something new (IE Yeah, the OS A was kind of like Windows 95), or if they bend the 10 years to 9 1/2, or 9 3/4, or even call something 10 years old when the technology (Not actual system design) Is 10 yrs old, so forth... or if anyone asks about emulation software for a computer a made in 1984 for a Pentium PC... Tony Duell wrote: > > 1) I vote strongly in favor of keeping the 10-year rule. It's simple, it's > > hard to start an argument over, and it has worked wonderfully so far. It is > > a "moving window", but that's appropriate. Time is moving on... > > I think the 10 year rule is working well, but that it should continue to > be treated flexibly. No, I don't want a flood of posts on Pentium PC's > here, but lets face it - the AMT DAP (Distributed Array Processor) is > only 9 years old, but it's such a strange machine (NO WAY could you call > it a PC clone, or an _anything_ clone :-)) that I don't think people > would mind if they were discussed here. > > > it!*") Worse, 5 years from now Tony may have been hit by a truck (er... > > lorry. and no offense intended, Tony!) and no one will be able to help you > > No offence taken - You're correct. I spend a lot of my time working on > high-voltage systems (both at work and at home - I'm not afraid to dive > into a monitor or an SMPS). Yes, I'm careful. Yes, I check everything as > I go. But accidents do happen. > > That's one reason why I try to ensure that like-minded people learn how > to repair/test things without me. If you ask me to fix your PSU, you'll > get a (probably) polite refusal. If you want help in sorting it out > yourself, you'll get me digging out printsets (if I have them), going > through it, suggesting tests, etc. Yes, it does take a lot more time that > way, but IMHO it's worth it. > > > - Mark > > -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Wed Nov 19 10:43:33 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971119080722.0101b400@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Kip Crosby wrote: > At 12:48 11/19/97 +0000, you wrote: > >The Rainbow, Pro series and DECmate 2 are very easy to pull to bits, > >agreed. I once dismantled one on a train, much to the amazement of the > >people sitting near me. > > ROTFL! Only you, Tony, or at the very least, you first among equals. A couple of other things. I once proved that a DECmate2 was a portable computer by putting the CPU box under 1 arm, carrying the monitor (VR201) by its handle in the other hand and standing the LK201 keyboard vertically in the pocket of my coat. Got some odd looks... The VR201 looks (from a distance to %member of the public) a little like the cannonical land mine. I'd not do this now (too many terrorist problems), but a few years about I carried one (I can't remember quite why...) on a train with a little 'Danger Implosives' sign stuck on each side. It got some _very_ odd looks. I'd checked, and a portable TV could be taken on a train, and this monitor was no more dangerous than that... > Kip Crosby, honcho, mechanic and sole proprietor, Kip's Garage -tony From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Nov 19 11:37:31 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Intro msg: Teraks, emulators, reviving cassette data Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971119093510.2a377bcc@ricochet.net> At 03:51 PM 11/18/97 -0600, you wrote: [much interesting introduction snipped] >In another area of the JCM, I've begun to collect ancient ASCII art >from the 60s and 70s: Einstein, Spock, Snoopy, etc. I've written a >more, and I'd like to record personal anecdotes about the creation >of these old artworks. I'd also like to get an actual print sample Hi! An anecdote for you... When I was in high school, one of our little gang of computer hoodlums managed to come up with an ascii printout of a naked woman. During lunch, we hung it up behind the pull-down projector screen. When classes resumed, we were (naturally) giggling like mad about how witty and clever we were to have not only obtained this delectable bit of naughtiness, but also at outsmarting the teacher. Well, he (the teacher) figured out something was up, and inquired about it. Somehow he learned of our devilry and went over to check it out. Well, rather than tearing it down and punishing us, dirty old man that he was, he promptly rolled the screen up and left it hanging there for all to see! Ah, to be young again... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Nov 19 11:37:35 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971119093514.2a37da9c@ricochet.net> At 08:50 PM 11/17/97 -0800, you wrote: >Personally I think some of the cooliest designs are the 68k based Atari's. >The perfect example is my Atari TT030. Couple the case design with TOS, I had forgotten about the TT... Definitely cool. Don't have one, though. Didn't they open up pretty easily? >the ROM based windowed OS, and you've got a cool design. The only down >sides are TOS's single task nature, and the mouse again. But multi-tasking is available as an add-on. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Nov 19 11:37:43 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971119093522.2a377f30@ricochet.net> At 12:50 AM 11/19/97 GMT, you wrote: >successful. I agree with Jeff in that the thing that makes most of >the systems "special" to me is the fact that not everybody could just >go down to the local Best Buy/Circuit City/Sears store, buy one, plug >it in, and use it. It took some determination, some ingenuity, and a I bought my Atari 600XL from Sears, and I would have to say that not everybody at the time could have put that to use. btw, the HP3000 has been produced for, what, 20+ years continuously, and some of the various models are extremely collectible. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Nov 19 11:33:11 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Intro msg: Teraks, emulators, reviving cassette data In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > I think there still are a few RTTY nuts out there that trade ASCII > (Baudot?) art over the air. This was quite a big thing in ham radio quite > a few years back. When I was younger I tried sending CoCo tapes to one of my friends via CB radio. It never worked. But it was fun trying... Turned up the AM in the radio was shot, but SSB worked (It was an old Cobra mobile), Just enough to hear him, but not to send data. Too bad his cheapie radio didn't have SSB... I still have the CB, I should go get it working again... From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Nov 19 11:40:42 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971119080521.00f00240@pop.batnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Kip Crosby wrote: > At 12:41 11/19/97 +0000, ARD wrote: > >Heck, if I was in somebody else's house I'd probably have my trusty > >Leatherman with me. ^^^^^^^^^^ Well, I know it's a LART of some kind... What's a leatherman exactly? From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Wed Nov 19 11:59:42 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Kip Crosby wrote: > > > At 12:41 11/19/97 +0000, ARD wrote: > > > >Heck, if I was in somebody else's house I'd probably have my trusty > > >Leatherman with me. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > Well, I know it's a LART of some kind... What's a leatherman exactly? It's a pocket toolkit, much loved by hardware hackers. Basically, it's a pair of pliers that folds up with a knife blade, saw, screwdrivers, file, etc in the handles. I suppose it could be used as a LART. The true Leathermans are made from stainless steel, are very well made, and are expensive. There are cheap 'clones' of them, but I've never tried one. I am told that there are other similar tools which are equally well made, equally expensive, but of a somewhat different design. My only moan is that the only Phillips screwdriver is a #2. I'd like a slightly different selection of tools (I'd miss out one of the cutting edges - I thing there are _3_), and put in a #1 Phillips for starters), but as it is, it's still a useful thing for trivial repairs. -tony From krh03 at csufresno.edu Wed Nov 19 02:45:38 1997 From: krh03 at csufresno.edu (Ken Harbit) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Old stuff found Message-ID: <199711191821.KAA21725@lennon.csufresno.edu> Found on comp.sys.tandy Greetings: I have acquired a pile of boxes from an estate sale. Numerous old computer pieces-parts that I thought might be of some value, but I don't know where to 'advertise' them -- and now they must go. Included are computers - TI & Radio Shack, some in perfect condition -- one is in a heavy steel case, RS keybd, could be home brew from misc parts but I can't tell, could it possibly be a stock TRS 80? software - cartridges & 5 1/4 floppies printers - are ribbons & print heads still available? ref books - old, specialized, probably junk monitors - USI, PI2, mono, unfamiliar connectors {also 2 non-computer antiques: 1) an old Associated Press linotype machine, with ribbons, very heavy. 2) 3M copier.} chips - small, many, stored in plastic tubes LNW Research products - look like large keybds but may be more than that -- one box is different as follows You should see this manual, it is beautiful. Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as an Antique Computer. Wish it had a date in it; ref is made to a CA sales tax of 6%. "System Expansion for the TRS-80 [pc board & user manual] w/ serial RS232C / 20mA I/O floppy controller 32K bytes memory" (awesome) etc.... Found a date. Guess! Answer to follow at signature. So please, somebody, send me a clue, what can I do. Anyone know an address where I can list these? Are old puters so plentiful as to not have any value as collector's items? Thanks much. ---mikey DON'T PEEK THE1ANSWER9IS8DON'T1PEEK Found on comp.sys.ti I have a couple TI99/4As, an expansion box with a disk drive and other stuff (very heavy), another disk drive, and some carts that a coworker was going to throw away. I live in Gilroy, CA and work in San Jose, CA. Anyone interested? Bostone1 Bostone1@aol.com From richa at insync.net Wed Nov 19 13:11:55 1997 From: richa at insync.net (richa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Subscribe Message-ID: <01bcf51f$00614fe0$4aa41cac@orac> Subscribe Richmond Armstrong -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971119/b51bee56/attachment.html From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Nov 19 13:53:27 1997 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Dilemma Message-ID: <199711191953.OAA25212@webern.cs.unc.edu> Are there any archaeologists in the house? Not being one myself, I wouldn't be too surprised if some archaeological treasures had been lost forever in the process of some enthusiastic 18th-century archaeologist applying 18th-century state-of-the-art technology to the study of some artifact. Maybe some singular fossil got dissolved in acid in an attempt to determine its chemical composition, where we could now pop the thing under an electron microscope and learn about its cell-structure. (Of course, maybe our electron microscope would do some damage that would prevent later generations from bringing that thing back to life! Who knows?) Had that guy just left the thing alone a couple centuries ago, we might now be able to extract much more knowledge from it. And/or, if we leave it alone now, it might be much more valuable after a couple more centuries. So, which will be more valuable a couple centuries down the road, another set of used floppies plus easily-readable copies of the software that was on them, or decayed but pristine floppies? I think I know which will be rarer. And maybe, just maybe they'll be able to read them even after the oxide coating has become so much dust. (Anyone care to speculate on the technology to do that?) I have the impression that museums generally collect things with the goal of having them available as needed to extract knowledge from them; scientists often take samples, even destructively when the utility is great. Are we in this group yet? Is there really any knowledge to be gained from these, that is otherwise unavailable? If we are pretending to be museums, should we have the same goals? Personally, I am not a museum; there are only a handful of systems I am interested in, and I want to keep them running, and even make new hardware/software for them. But I might think twice about that if I got a never-used never-even-opened system dropped in my lap. Maybe I'd contact a real museum. Enough talk. Back to hacking. Cheers, Bill. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Nov 19 14:54:52 1997 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: New Definiton REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711192054.PAA25322@webern.cs.unc.edu> I'm quite happy with the ten-year-plus-flexibility definition, as described by Bill Whitson. Remember the sign-on message from when you first subscribed? (Maybe it changes from time to time? I'll include the one I got at the end of this.) He specifically states that the main intent of the ten-year limit is to avoid "discussion of technical problems with the standard PCs and Macs, other than the really old stuff". Perfect. No WinDoze d00dz begging for warez, but talk about fixing up the older critters is explicitly 100% in-bounds. By the "not-heavy-handed" clause, talk about the unusual not-yet-ten-year-old machine is okay too. Unless you are insisting on discussing current PCs and Macs, or want to be more restrictive, there is nothing that needs adjusting. (I personally wouldn't mind ruling out all PC/Mac talk, but that's just me, and I wouldn't actively push for that.) Can we please drop this now? Bill. ] NAQ (Never Asked Questions) 0.1 ] ] What is it? ] ] This list is for the discussion of Classic Computers - ] primarily for those people who collect and restore ] old machines. It is brand new - no subscribers yet ] so sign up. The collection and restoration of computers ] is becoming a big enough hobby that I felt a need for ] a place to talk about it. ] ] What is a classic computer? ] ] Well that's hard to say but since I created the list I'll ] do it anyway. A classic computer is a machine that has not ] been produced for 10 years or more. It's an arbitrary ] definition but at least uncomplicated. ] ] What are the guidelines? ] ] The list is designed for discussion of collecting, restoring, ] and maintaining old computers. I'm not going to be heavy ] handed with restricting discussion. I'd just like it to be ] clear that the list is not the proper place for discussion ] of technical problems with the standard PCs and Macs (other ] than the really old stuff). Anyone can lurk - if you're ] going to post, just use your own good judgement. ] ] This IS NOT and will NEVER BE a list for discussion of "which ] computer is best?" and anyone who posts the ubiquitous "why ] don't you just go buy a PC you moron" will be immediately ] unsubbed. ] ] Beyond this - have fun! That what keeps us going with these ] old machines. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Nov 19 15:05:09 1997 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: web page down? Message-ID: <199711192105.QAA25348@webern.cs.unc.edu> Did something unexpected happen to the web page? I haven't been able to get it in several days now. It used to be here: http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp/index.html Cheers, Bill. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Nov 19 16:37:28 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: What's MUD mean? (PDP-11 related, not MUD... You know what I , mean!) Message-ID: There's a few slots up by the CPU labled MUD. I think I know what it means. But I want to make sure. Does it mean Modified Unibus Device? And does that mean DMA slot? And does that mean all the screwing with the backplane I did was unneccesary? From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Nov 19 18:23:26 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971119162110.2a4f6200@ricochet.net> At 11:40 AM 11/19/97 -0600, you wrote: >> >Heck, if I was in somebody else's house I'd probably have my trusty >> >Leatherman with me. > ^^^^^^^^^^ >Well, I know it's a LART of some kind... What's a leatherman exactly? One of the Village People... 8^) Sorry -- couldn't resist. (Saw them in concert a year or so ago.) Anyway, a Leatherman is a multi-tool -- pliers with various blades, saws, screwdrivers, etc that fold into the handle. Whole thing folds up into an innocuos little rectangle. Kind of a modern-day swiss-army knife. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Nov 19 18:23:23 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971119162107.2a4f683c@ricochet.net> At 07:22 PM 11/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >Okay... I started all this stuff... and I'll end it... it *was* a mistake.... >but now, at least we know that until something BIG happens, the 10 yr. definition Or until somebody else new comes along. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at ricochet.net Wed Nov 19 18:23:29 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Old stuff found Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971119162113.2a4fe3f4@ricochet.net> At 08:45 AM 11/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >Found on comp.sys.ti > >I have a couple TI99/4As, an expansion box with a disk drive and other >stuff (very heavy), another disk drive, and some carts that a coworker >was going to throw away. I live in Gilroy, CA and work in San Jose, >CA. Anyone interested? If only I had some way to get to the south bay on a weekday (or time on a weekend)... Oh well, surely someone will save this...? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Nov 19 18:54:45 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: New Definiton/ Vaporware lives still! In-Reply-To: <199711171831.AA27875@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971120115445.0094ac60@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 01:31 PM 11/17/97 -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: > >Sure, you can buy them used for prices that aren't all that expensive >compared to late model 486 or early p5s. The older ones are now some 4-5 >years old. The OS for it will cost you. You have three choices that I >know of, OpenVMS (my favorite), Digital Unix, or NT. I don't know that >anyone has done a UNIX port outside of digital. For the more recent Alpha systems (basically anything with PCI) you can run Linux. Also NetBSD supports some of the older Alpha systems (the 3000/300LX) for example. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From william at ans.net Wed Nov 19 19:04:04 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <199711190356.WAA10934@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: > > Also, the really cheap PeeCees use screws that are stamped, and not > > turned. This is one of the reasons that fine threads are still used. > Uh huh... not true. Ummm...yes true. It is really obvious when the dies get worn and a flashing start to show up, like on a cheap plastic model. > Actual production of screws comes in gress what? Roll of wire! > Snipped to short lengths by shear action then fed to 2 or 3 machines > then in the end is screws. Well, yes, I assumed that everyone knew that. Screws have basically always been made like this. These "ultra-cheap" screws start out the same, with a head formed exactly the same way, but then the blank is fed into a two part die that cuts the thread by "smashing". William Donzelli william@ans.net From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Nov 19 19:32:01 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:41 2005 Subject: Old stuff found Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971120013201.00692b04@pop3.concentric.net> I would like a list of the items jrkeys@concentric.net At 08:45 AM 11/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >Found on comp.sys.tandy > > Greetings: > > I have acquired a pile of boxes from an estate sale. Numerous old > computer pieces-parts that I thought might be of some value, but I > don't know where to 'advertise' them -- and now they must go. > > Included are > computers - TI & Radio Shack, some in perfect condition -- one is > in a heavy steel case, RS keybd, could be home brew from misc > parts but I can't tell, could it possibly be a stock TRS 80? > software - cartridges & 5 1/4 floppies > printers - are ribbons & print heads still available? > ref books - old, specialized, probably junk > monitors - USI, PI2, mono, unfamiliar connectors > {also 2 non-computer antiques: 1) an old Associated Press > linotype machine, with ribbons, very heavy. 2) 3M copier.} > chips - small, many, stored in plastic tubes > LNW Research products - look like large keybds but may be > more than that -- one box is different as follows > > You should see this manual, it is beautiful. Yes, Virginia, there is > such a thing as an Antique Computer. Wish it had a date in it; ref is > made to a CA sales tax of 6%. "System Expansion for the TRS-80 [pc > board & user manual] w/ serial RS232C / 20mA I/O > floppy controller > 32K bytes memory" (awesome) > etc.... > Found a date. Guess! Answer to follow at signature. > > So please, somebody, send me a clue, what can I do. > Anyone know an address where I can list these? Are old puters > so plentiful as to not have any value as collector's items? > > Thanks much. > > ---mikey > > DON'T PEEK THE1ANSWER9IS8DON'T1PEEK > > > >Found on comp.sys.ti > >I have a couple TI99/4As, an expansion box with a disk drive and other >stuff (very heavy), another disk drive, and some carts that a coworker >was going to throw away. I live in Gilroy, CA and work in San Jose, >CA. Anyone interested? > >Bostone1 > >Bostone1@aol.com > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Nov 19 16:11:10 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: References: <199711190356.WAA10934@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199711200306.WAA27770@mail.cgocable.net> > > > Also, the really cheap PeeCees use screws that are stamped, and not > > > turned. This is one of the reasons that fine threads are still used. > > > Uh huh... not true. > > Ummm...yes true. It is really obvious when the dies get worn and a > flashing start to show up, like on a cheap plastic model. > > > Actual production of screws comes in gress what? Roll of wire! > > Snipped to short lengths by shear action then fed to 2 or 3 machines > > then in the end is screws. > > Well, yes, I assumed that everyone knew that. Screws have basically always > been made like this. Heh, whoa! you're assuming! Not many knows. My bother who is a mechanic might not know how it's made...except he knows they're machined which is cutting. And that's old days long since gone except in specific needs. :) > These "ultra-cheap" screws start out the same, with a head formed exactly > the same way, but then the blank is fed into a two part die that cuts the > thread by "smashing". Eeww.. Lucky me, I did not find 'em. I would spot "seam" in a instant. And toss box of it into grabage. When you talk of cutting thread it's would be CUTTING. Better to say forming? They have 2 ways depending on needs and by design: to form threads: roll blanks between 2 molds, one fixed, one moving in linear motion under pressure (low quanitity) or constant feed through a circular mold about 1/4 of the way around with outer mold. (High quanitity) Rather like children clay being rolled on table and your hands to makes "sausages" and put impressions in it from both your fingerprints and the defects in the table. Troll > William Donzelli > william@ans.net From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Nov 19 16:11:10 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971119162107.2a4f683c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199711200306.WAA27756@mail.cgocable.net> > At 07:22 PM 11/19/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Okay... I started all this stuff... and I'll end it... it *was* a mistake.... > >but now, at least we know that until something BIG happens, the 10 yr. > definition > > Or until somebody else new comes along. 8^) Oh, my GAWD! :) It's going as long as we have newbies comes in, even happens on other newsgroups and in our notes on vax at my college. Sheesh! Troll > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@ricochet.net that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Wed Nov 19 21:25:53 1997 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it Message-ID: <01IQ7IJCBOXU8Y8NPZ@AC.GRIN.EDU> > It's going as long as we have newbies comes in, even happens on other > newsgroups and in our notes on vax at my college. Sheesh! You mean, there's still another educational institution that uses VAX Notes as a major means of mass communication? What's your mailer? -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH It is good to rock. It is very good to rock wearing a big ass pumpkin on your head. It is very, very good if that pumpkin is on fire. --Jessica Stern From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Nov 19 16:56:40 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it In-Reply-To: <01IQ7IJCBOXU8Y8NPZ@AC.GRIN.EDU> Message-ID: <199711200351.WAA06015@mail.cgocable.net> > > It's going as long as we have newbies comes in, even happens on other > > newsgroups and in our notes on vax at my college. Sheesh! > > You mean, there's still another educational institution that uses VAX > Notes as a major means of mass communication? > > What's your mailer? One thing, Notes is kind of internal "newsgroups" that you can subscribe while as authorized users logged on there. The vax email program that you write and reply to is PMDF and has POP3 server as well. Also it has newsgroups reader on there but it's too clumsy and hard to use. I prefer seperate programs like Agent or suitable linux newsreader (still yet to get a computer running properly for that linux except for that dumb video chipset especially X-win problem. Only thing Notes sees when other users uses Notes to read other replies from other users and if one wishes to send off a message directly to user who wrote a note uses this command: send /auth. That lands in their specific email adress as seen from that specific note with that username in the subject line area. What? My local email or at my college? Well, On my local account not college's is Pegasus Mail via my account POP3 server. I'm user of WAVE as you noted in my email tag. :) Troll > > -- > Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu > Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH > It is good to rock. It is very good to rock wearing a big ass pumpkin on your > head. It is very, very good if that pumpkin is on fire. --Jessica Stern From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Nov 19 22:32:26 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: AST six pak plus Message-ID: <971119233225_2094351952@mrin51.mail.aol.com> ok, now that everyone's finished hashing out the 10 year rule... I was going through some of my old junk and discovered the above mentioned card. I need the utilities disk; i think it was called superpak or something like that which had the clock driver, print spooler, and ramdisk setup. I also have a copy of the super pak utilies disk user's guide if anyone wants it. it's the first edition, as i am keeping the second edition that i also got. david From dhouse at abac.com Wed Nov 19 22:44:38 1997 From: dhouse at abac.com (Don Robert House) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Nifty HEATHKIT equipment available Message-ID: HEATH Computer Enthusiasts: In September I picked up a Western Union Telegraph Company Model 102 Teleprinter for our museum. It and a complete Heathkit Computer system were the belongings of Charlie Eheman,K6ESN "K6 Every Saturday Night" of San Diego. Charlie was a WWII Navy Chief Radioman; he passed away on August 20, 1997. His brother, Ed Eheman of Texas was in San Diego cleaning out Charlies house. I am looking for someone to actually put the Heathkit system to GOOD use; in its day it was the "cat's meow." It is all in good shape with EXTENSIVE documentation. H9 Video display terminal H10 Paper tape reader and perforator H11 Digital computer (a DEC PDP11) H14 Dot matrix printer H19 Video display terminal H27 Dual 8" Floppy Drive Complete with cables and all manuals, builders notes, including the programming courses, paper tape, 8" floppy disks, etc. Don Robert House, N.S.E. NO JOB IS SO IMPORTANT NADCOMM AND NO SERVICE IS SO URGENT- 3841 Reche Road THAT WE CANNOT TAKE TIME Fallbrook, CA 92028-3810 TO PERFORM OUR WORK SAFELY. e-mail: dhouse@abac.com BELL SYSTEM http://www.hem.com/nadcomm 760-723-9959 Telephone 760-781-5161 Facsimile From cmao at eos.ncsu.edu Wed Nov 19 18:20:51 1997 From: cmao at eos.ncsu.edu (chimin mao) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Mac286 Message-ID: <347381F8.7CC4@eos.ncsu.edu> I recently got a AST Mac286 NuBus board but no SW. Can you share your SW with me, if you have one. Thanks,chimin From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Nov 20 02:55:58 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... Message-ID: <3473FB1E.F55CCA5@batelco.com.bh> Hello... some time ago, there was talk of building a computer, and now I think that I've got a (bad, possibly) idea. In the earlier half of this century, transistors weren't avaible... vaccum tubes... huge ones, but now, the transistor has made small ones possible. My point: If we were to take a tubed design, and re-build it with transistors, we could probably make it a decent size. So, what da ya think? Tim D. Hotze From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Nov 20 00:10:39 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... In-Reply-To: <3473FB1E.F55CCA5@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971119221039.02f81000@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Tim: If you're going to try this, I'd suggest starting with something simple like an adder or a flip flop, or a register. You'd get an idea of what would be involved with a simple processor. But I think it would end up being pretty expensive. How about digging out some old stuff from Konrad Zuse and building an elctromechanical (i.e. relay-based) machine? For the way-outs, see "The Apraphulian Wonder" from "The Magic Machine" by A.K. Dewdney. Kevin At 08:55 AM 97/11/20 +0000, you wrote: >Hello... some time ago, there was talk of building a computer, and now I >think that I've got a (bad, possibly) idea. In the earlier half of this >century, transistors weren't avaible... vaccum tubes... huge ones, but >now, the transistor has made small ones possible. My point: If we were >to take a tubed design, and re-build it with transistors, we could >probably make it a decent size. > So, what da ya think? > > Tim D. Hotze > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Nov 20 04:19:18 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... Message-ID: <9710208800.AA880050269@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Hi Tim: > > If you're going to try this, I'd suggest starting with something simple > like an adder or a flip flop, or a register. You'd get an idea of what > would be involved with a simple processor. But I think it would end up > being pretty expensive. [...] Tim Hotze had written: >Hello... some time ago, there was talk of building a computer, and now I >think that I've got a (bad, possibly) idea. In the earlier half of this >century, transistors weren't avaible... vaccum tubes... huge ones, but >now, the transistor has made small ones possible. My point: If we were >to take a tubed design, and re-build it with transistors, we could >probably make it a decent size. > So, what da ya think? I think there is something even more fundamental here. Valves (thermionic, in tubes) have quite different behaviour to trannies. A JFET behaves fairly like a triode, but designs that use pentodes and nonodes and things as multi-input gates are going to be very difficult to translate. Of course by the 1960s there were somve very nice valves around that weren't available to the 1940s computer pioneers - the 7586 nuvistor springs to mind: a very nice triode in a metal can about 1 inch tall including pins, and less than half an inch in diameter. Can't remember the spec, though. Such devices could make a valve machine quite a bit smaller than Colossus, Eniac, Edsac, etc. Or if you want to be way out, what about tubes with several valves in? Things like double diode triodes are quite common, and someone even put most of a radio set into one tube (passive components and all). So how about making our own. A tube containing, say, a 4-bit D-type latch? Make a few in that range and a valve computer becomes almost manageable! Besides, the smaller it is, the faster you can make it... Philip. From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Thu Nov 20 04:51:20 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... In-Reply-To: <9710208800.AA880050269@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: [Can we build a modern version of a valved computer] > I think there is something even more fundamental here. Valves > (thermionic, in tubes) have quite different behaviour to trannies. Hmm... Whether that's a problem depends on how close-to-original you want to be. Remember, the standard bistable will work with _any_ type of switching component (relays, bipolar transistors, jfets, mosfets, valves, etc). Similarly, you can make multi-input gates, which, while not original, perform the same functions. Thus you could easily make a machine with the same architecture. It's not quite as simple as replacing the valved AND gate with the transistorised (or IC) equivalent (I suspect timing considerations are going to be a problem, and a lot of the earlier machines used AC coupling between stages, etc), but it should be possible. > > A JFET behaves fairly like a triode, but designs that use pentodes and > nonodes and things as multi-input gates are going to be very difficult > to translate. Well, there were pentodes that could be cut off by 2 of their grids (the 6F33 springs to mind) and were thus NAND gates, but I don't think they were that common in computers. Anyway, there are work-arounds There are certainly dual-gate MOSFETs made (used as RF mixers, etc) that could probably be used for gates as well. > Or if you want to be way out, what about tubes with several valves in? Double triodes were common in computers. Somewhere I have 1 module from a Ferranti Pegasus computer, and that has 3 double triodes (essentially selected 12AX7/12AU7/12AT7/ECC8x devices) on it. > Things like double diode triodes are quite common, and someone even put > most of a radio set into one tube (passive components and all). You mean the Loewe 1-valve? That thing had a single glass envelope with a tuned circuit connected to the input and a pair of headphones connected to the output. The valve contained (I think) 3 triodes and all the R's and C's for the radio. Came out in the 1920's, and never caught on. > > So how about making our own. A tube containing, say, a 4-bit D-type > latch? Make a few in that range and a valve computer becomes almost > manageable! Besides, the smaller it is, the faster you can make it... Hmm.. There are/were a few special-purpose valves already, like the Trochotron (10 state high-vacuum counter tube - I guess an 8-state or 16 state one could have been made), Selectron (OK, so it never worked, but it would have been a 256 bit memory), etc. If you don't need that high speed, then I suspect you could make a shift register using the nixie tube principe - Borroughs made a thing called a 'self-scan display' that was exactly that, although most of the electrodes were not available externally. Also remember that the Klystron proved that the transit time of the electrons was not the limiting factor of the speed of a valve (The _spread_ in transit times is). I wonder if you could use the glass delay lines from PAL colour TVs to store (say) 64 bits. It would make a neat register for an EDSAC-a-like :-) > > Philip. > > -tony From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Thu Nov 20 04:54:54 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: What's MUD mean? (PDP-11 related, not MUD... You know what I , mean!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > There's a few slots up by the CPU labled MUD. I think I know what it MUD = Modified Unibus Device Also, SPC = Small Peripheral Controller > means. But I want to make sure. Does it mean Modified Unibus Device? > And does that mean DMA slot? And does that mean all the screwing with the > backplane I did was unneccesary? A MUD slot means that the memory address/data bus is wired on the A/B connectors (which are not used on a true SPC slot). On an 11/34 the memory bus is just the Unibus, but on something like an 11/44 there's a 22 bit address bus for memory. The C-F connectors will carry the Unibus signals, just like an SPC slot I think all MUD slots do carry the DMA signals, but on the SPC part. You do still have to cut the NPG jumper from CA1 to CB1 (I can't think of a way to make a unibus slot where that's not that case that will work with all unmodified cards). > > > -tony From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Thu Nov 20 06:35:53 1997 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... References: <3473FB1E.F55CCA5@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <34742EA9.3E9C@digiweb.com> HOTZE wrote: > think that I've got a (bad, possibly) idea. In the earlier half of this > century, transistors weren't avaible... vaccum tubes... huge ones, but > now, the transistor has made small ones possible. My point: If we were > to take a tubed design, and re-build it with transistors, we could > probably make it a decent size. Not a bad idea at all. This is something I have been tinkering with for quite some time (about 20 years!). At that time, I was a student and my university tutor had worked on the DEUCE machine (similar to Turings ACE) [These machines are admissible here arn't they? ;-)] The main memory of the DEUCE was built form mercury delay lines of 1024 bits, and the 1024 bit shift register chip had just become available. The connection was obvious and we spent hours discussing the rebuilding a TTL version of DEUCE, for which he still had the logic diagrams. Alas the project was never completed but I have dreams of doing it one day. I see this as more than just an academic project, rebuilding these old machines in current technology is really the only way in which they can be preserved and made available for study, excepting perhaps via emulators (another of my passions). Take the idea even further : the technology exists today to build most if not all first generations machines on a single chip. Indeed I wonder if an FPGA might not be able to be reconfigurable to build many of these early machines, certainly a few FPGA's together with the new programmable routiing chips (from GateWay?) should do the job. Thus we can build on hardware base capable of emulating or recreating many of the early machines, just add software. There is obviously a fine line between this and doing an emulator on a modern machine but I think both are equally valuable to presevre the intellectual ideas behind theose early machines. > So, what da ya think? I'm not usually so eloquent, but you touch one of my hot spots with this idea, Thanks, -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From bernier at mail.co.leon.fl.us Thu Nov 20 08:13:37 1997 From: bernier at mail.co.leon.fl.us (Bernie Randolph) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: KAYPRO 10 MANUALS NEEDED Message-ID: <34744591.7F2B@mail.co.leon.fl.us> HI, I'VE GOT A KAYPRO 10 AND IT'S BEEN A MILD CHALLENGE TO ENDEVOR TO OPERATE.IF YOU COULD PART WITH THE OPERATING MANUALS I'D BE BLESSED.THANKS BERNIE From william at ans.net Thu Nov 20 09:45:01 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... In-Reply-To: <9710208800.AA880050269@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: > >century, transistors weren't avaible... vaccum tubes... huge ones, but There were some rather small Western Electric tubes from the 1920s and 30s. > I think there is something even more fundamental here. Valves > (thermionic, in tubes) have quite different behaviour to trannies. > > A JFET behaves fairly like a triode, but designs that use pentodes and > nonodes and things as multi-input gates are going to be very difficult > to translate. All true, but additionally, tubes really do not like doing digital work at all. If they are in a cutoff condition (no electron flow from cathode to plate), a charged cloud of electrons forms around the cathode. This cloud greatly increases the time it takes for the tube to turn on. This is called "sleeping sickness". > Of course by the 1960s there were somve very nice valves around that > weren't available to the 1940s computer pioneers - the 7586 nuvistor > springs to mind: a very nice triode in a metal can about 1 inch tall > including pins, and less than half an inch in diameter. Can't remember > the spec, though. Such devices could make a valve machine quite a bit > smaller than Colossus, Eniac, Edsac, etc. The 7586, as well as the other nuvistors, also suffer from the sickness. Special "computer only" tubes were developed in the 1950s - I can not recall numbers, but they are similar to their analog cousins. > Or if you want to be way out, what about tubes with several valves in? > Things like double diode triodes are quite common, and someone even put > most of a radio set into one tube (passive components and all). Tried and died. The Germans tried it with the rather expensive Loewe tubes, then we made the 6N6G, then the Zahl tube for the AN/TPS-1. The idea is not new, just not popular. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Thu Nov 20 09:49:21 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Remember, the standard bistable will work with _any_ type of switching > component (relays, bipolar transistors, jfets, mosfets, valves, etc). > Similarly, you can make multi-input gates, which, while not original, > perform the same functions. Yes, relay based bistable circuits have been around since, well, the beginning, and tube based flip-flops could be found in early radar sets. William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Nov 20 09:57:43 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... In-Reply-To: <3473FB1E.F55CCA5@batelco.com.bh> from "HOTZE" at Nov 20, 97 08:55:58 am Message-ID: <9711201557.AA19319@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1025 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971120/826fe2db/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 20 10:52:51 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... Message-ID: <199711201652.AA06040@world.std.com> From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From: HOTZE I just got my XT working!!! (My first classic) Well... not really working... I get a "601 Error", and then it says "Press F1 To Resume" I remember a similiar error w/my current computer... I replaced the keyboard when all was done. Just for a little interesting bit, the manufacturer of the chip (I forget the term) on the keyboard is Zilog.... same neon light style logo as way back when. Well anyway, I would like to thank Max, who sent me the processor that got it working, (Sorry, tried to e-mail him, and got an error) and I would like to know if anyone can help w/ the 601 error. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Nov 20 15:08:31 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... References: <199711201653.AA06397@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3474A6CE.3E405960@batelco.com.bh> There's a Java applet that simulates the Turing machine... not to handsome, as Applets go, but you can program it, etc. If you try hard enough, you've got to get it right........ (There's always the afterlife...) And the truth is that as far as memory is concerned, it always gets faster, cheaper and bigger, within a few months, if not at the same time. Now, there are exceptions, such as the South East Asia production cuts, but mostly, it's a strait line. As for processors, I'm convienced that if you wanted to put your money into it, you could get any amount of power you wanted (Well, there's the speed of light) but we're talking barn, or even skyscraper size here.... you'ld need it in the Arctic Circle (Or Antarctic Circle) to keep the thing cooled, and you'ld need the Tropics to keep the thing warm enough to just "start up". But anyway, yes, I do have only the most BASIC KNOWLEDGE of the actual inner workings of a computer.... I pretty much started caring with the invention of a ZIF socket for the mainstream (cheap) market... so I'm not really an old hand at this, but it seems that there MUST be a way to make a simple, efficent (I mean that you spend days, or weeks/months, not decades building this), and size effective (As in my house, not my block) way to do this... wouldn't it be neet if you could make a fairly complex AI program for something like the Virtual Pet (Tomagatchi) (Same size). Tim D. Hotze PS- I've been looking for this for months. Does anyone know where I can find the latest version of Elisa (Or another good AI) on the net? Elsewhere? Allison J Parent wrote: > > With current parts the Turing machine could almost be practical/useful as > it would be easy to provide enough memory to simulate a very long tape > and enough speed to transverse it quickly. > > It's been a long time since I've looked at that machine. > > > In most cases yes. Some are quite simple when reduced a logical > description. The PDP-8 has seen this treatment many times using the 6100. > 6120 and even gate-arrays. > > Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Nov 20 13:24:32 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: HORRAY!!! (And a little boo...) Message-ID: <971120142432_2027333806@mrin54.mail.aol.com> 601 post error is a floppy drive and/or controller error. time to check your cabling and swap out parts if you have them. david From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Nov 20 17:52:17 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Dilog CQ2010, what is it? Message-ID: I have an interestin quad-height board labelled Dilog CQ2010. It has a 50-pin plug (Like a SCSI plug), and a few DIP switch blocks. What is it? Anyone know? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Nov 20 17:53:21 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: HORRAY!!! (And a little boo...) In-Reply-To: <34749908.3DD38C13@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, HOTZE wrote: > I just got my XT working!!! (My first classic) Well... not really > working... I get a "601 Error", and then it says "Press F1 To Resume" I > remember a similiar error w/my current computer... I replaced the > keyboard when all was done. Just for a little interesting bit, the > manufacturer of the chip (I forget the term) on the keyboard is > Zilog.... same neon light style logo as way back when. Well anyway, I > would like to thank Max, who sent me the processor that got it working, > (Sorry, tried to e-mail him, and got an error) and I would like to know > if anyone can help w/ the 601 error. > Thanks, My boss, who used to work on these, says it's either a keyboard fail, or a harddisk fail. He's not sure. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Nov 20 13:40:25 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: HORRAY!!! (And a little boo...) In-Reply-To: References: <34749908.3DD38C13@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <199711210035.TAA06297@mail.cgocable.net> > On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, HOTZE wrote: > > > I just got my XT working!!! (My first classic) Well... not really > > working... I get a "601 Error", and then it says "Press F1 To Resume" I > > remember a similiar error w/my current computer... I replaced the > > keyboard when all was done. Just for a little interesting bit, the > > manufacturer of the chip (I forget the term) on the keyboard is > > Zilog.... same neon light style logo as way back when. Well anyway, I > > would like to thank Max, who sent me the processor that got it working, > > (Sorry, tried to e-mail him, and got an error) and I would like to know > > if anyone can help w/ the 601 error. > > Thanks, > > My boss, who used to work on these, says it's either a keyboard fail, or a > harddisk fail. He's not sure. > Bassy, harsh LOUD BUZZ! (Air shakes and vases rattles...) xyyy, where x is specific group and sub items within that group stands for yyy. For 601 that means 6 is floppy system as whole and 01 is general adapter error. This is floppy card controller fail. Clean all contacts and check all jumpers on floppy both or one drives should be set as number 1 (physical number so 0 counts. 0,1,2,3), power. Make sure your floppy controller card has that alone jumper is shorted. Your floppy cable has Twisted part on that floppy cable connecter stands for A: and UnTwisted one is B:. Either way the device as only one or on 2 drives, only one MUST have terminator resistor installed. But 1.44 drive does not need it because it's already built in. You can borrow modern 16 bit multi i/o that has IDE on it card and the 1.44 drive for testing! IDE does not matter it will not be used because of IRQ 14 but the vital i/o part of serial and parallel and floppy controller part will work on old PC and XT but the 1.44 will just work as 720k mode due to 9 sectors as expected on 360k disks. Make sure you already made several bootable 720k disks. I recommand dos 5 to see all of the hd if the hd is larger than 32mb. And that Dos 3.3 for least memory requirements and also supports 720k disks but dos 5 will do well and easier to get. I did that exactly like that on XT and it's successful. And much easier to get and cheaper this way. So you can know your pc is good, and allows you to have relaxed time to find proper components for it. Greater problem: new keyboards today and I mean those that you can get now no longer have XT support now. Better fix yours and keep 'em jealously! :) Both PS/2 and PS/1 keyboards can support either automatically. Other generics that does have one commonly have switch selection or very rare non-ibm makes does automatically as well. Troll From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 20 17:28:09 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 20, 97 10:49:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971120/e90318a6/attachment.ksh From photze at batelco.com.bh Thu Nov 20 23:56:36 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: HORRAY!!! (And a little boo...) References: Message-ID: <34752293.20B03061@batelco.com.bh> Okay.... possibly keyboard, but probably HDD. I tried my current keyboard... it's a Windows 95, and I still got that error. Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, HOTZE wrote: > > > I just got my XT working!!! (My first classic) Well... not really > > working... I get a "601 Error", and then it says "Press F1 To Resume" I > > remember a similiar error w/my current computer... I replaced the > > keyboard when all was done. Just for a little interesting bit, the > > manufacturer of the chip (I forget the term) on the keyboard is > > Zilog.... same neon light style logo as way back when. Well anyway, I > > would like to thank Max, who sent me the processor that got it working, > > (Sorry, tried to e-mail him, and got an error) and I would like to know > > if anyone can help w/ the 601 error. > > Thanks, > > My boss, who used to work on these, says it's either a keyboard fail, or a > harddisk fail. He's not sure. From photze at batelco.com.bh Fri Nov 21 02:32:29 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (HOTZE) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: The XT Dilema Message-ID: <3475471B.3CCB73B3@batelco.com.bh> I've tried replacing the controller, and used another 360K floppy. Now, the monitor stops working :( Does the XT just not LIKE me? Tim D. Hotze From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Nov 20 20:11:23 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: The XT Dilema In-Reply-To: <3475471B.3CCB73B3@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: <199711210706.CAA10923@mail.cgocable.net> > I've tried replacing the controller, and used another 360K floppy. Now, > the monitor stops working :( Does the XT just not LIKE me? > Tim D. Hotze > Dang it! That is not funny time for XT to misbehave multiple times! :) Well, If yours is ORIGINAL bright green monochrome monitor, keep that power cable attached to the power supply "out" side. It's switched by that red switch. Look carefully if you can see orange glow through top grille in your monitor. If you try to power that monitor without signal plug attached to XT, I do not know if it will blow up or drill a new burnin in one spot. Have the monitor inspected and repaired by your friend who KNOWS electronics stuff and doing it for a living. Just in case. I caught and already informed local radio shack about the preishable capacitors after failing few from 2 bulk packages of capacitors with my new trusty ESR meter. Few years ago, I did that without proper tool to check those RS new caps for rebuilding PSU, that went bad in short order within a year. PSU is switching type BTW. :( And they told me that is first time they heard of it. HUH! Capacitors are like food. Use them or lose 'em. I know now for a fact: RS resells those bulk parts with castoffs mixed in with rare quality caps that has epoxyied bottoms instead of black rubber. (!) Compare that bulk packages to singles, some looked dreadful and badly oxidized, looked like they're from 10 or 20 years ago compared to shiny NEW caps. Now, I wonder where I can trust to get REAL fresh and speced 105C instead of cheaper 85C ones that I only see often when I go shopping at bulk components store in Toronto, Ontario, Canada? And cheap to boot as well? I have a old notebook, yes it's a compaq SLT 286 needing a right type. it's bit nonstandard shape: long skinny cap rated 1500uF at working 20V, it JUST a hair under 1/2" dia but length is limited by the 1500uF but the diameter is vital. Only one or two mm to play with. Whew! Oh, it's radial and has 3 legs: one for keeping the other end from wagging around, welded to the casing, other 2 is just your typical radial pattern. Right now I hung a regular cap w/ insulated 18GA wires just to cut losses outside the casing in the space between PSU and the floppy, just functional but plain ugly custom engineering. :) Oh, that one end of that bad cap is epoxied with that shiny red stuff. Nice, but that failure was internal wire break and allows a pin to rotate that I missed because that was WAY before I got the ESR meter. (!!) Oh, anyone heard of a portable/notebook maker called NBCC (Nippon Business Computer Corp.) ? I have 2 models of that maker one is 286 portable and one 386sx16 notebook, BOTH are needing in repair and like to have info about these reputation and its' reliablity.. If you have knowledge of them, just chat with me on private email. Models: (sorry no FCC # just models) 286LT and other one is 386SX I Think. Troll From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Fri Nov 21 02:22:20 1997 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it Message-ID: <01IQ9768XPSU8ZEB3W@AC.GRIN.EDU> > > You mean, there's still another educational institution that uses VAX > > Notes as a major means of mass communication? > > > > What's your mailer? > > One thing, Notes is kind of internal "newsgroups" that you can > subscribe while as authorized users logged on there. I know all about it. I'm required to use it daily, both for work and for class. I was just surprised to hear of a fellow Notes-user. > The vax email > program that you write and reply to is PMDF and has POP3 server as > well. We have no POP server here (or we do, but we have no dialup PPP service, so it's useless unless you're connected to the network). We use Dreams as an interface to PMDF, which has its nice features. > Also it has newsgroups reader on there but it's too clumsy and > hard to use. SLRN can be compiled under VMS (at least, 0.9.0.0 could be). I find it a lot easier to use than NEWSRDR. -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH It is good to rock. It is very good to rock wearing a big ass pumpkin on your head. It is very, very good if that pumpkin is on fire. --Jessica Stern From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 21 09:21:42 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it Message-ID: <199711211521.AA12774@world.std.com> <> > You mean, there's still another educational institution that uses VAX <> > Notes as a major means of mass communication? The vax email I have VAXnotes up and running on my collection of vaxen here. Trying to workup CMUip slip or slirp. What I like about Vaxnotes was you coul have public conferences or private authorized people only conferences. Allison From dastar at wco.com Fri Nov 21 10:10:03 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it In-Reply-To: <199711200306.WAA27756@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > >Okay... I started all this stuff... and I'll end it... it *was* a mistake.... > > >but now, at least we know that until something BIG happens, the 10 yr. > > definition > > > > Or until somebody else new comes along. 8^) > Oh, my GAWD! :) > > It's going as long as we have newbies comes in, even happens on other > newsgroups and in our notes on vax at my college. Sheesh! Next time we'll just say "READ THE FAQ"! Maybe a section should be added to the FAQ explaining why it would be futile to attempt to alter the ten year rule. I think Bill is dead otherwise he would do this. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Fri Nov 21 10:12:18 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Wrong Way:New Definition REQUIRED Message-ID: <199711211612.AA00612@maddog.swec.com> On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:42:28 GMT, Bill Richman inquired: > [...] And does anyone have an Intecolor in their collection? Yep. I've got an ISC 8001 with 24 kB of user memory, 48-line option, dual 5 1/4" floppy drives, and ROM BASIC. It's a nice box. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Nov 21 10:31:12 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Lost Email, New address Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971121082916.2987110c@ricochet.net> Well, I managed to trash my e-mail and lose everything in my inbox. (1000+ messages) So, if anyone wrote to me recently, please resend it. Sorry! Further, I am getting rid of my CRL account, so if you have my e-mail address as , please change it to either or . Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From donan at utk.edu Fri Nov 21 11:02:02 1997 From: donan at utk.edu (Robert M Donan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: TRS 80 with Green Screen Message-ID: <3475BE8A.E2B2051@utk.edu> The Tandy TRS80 Model III, as delivered, did not come with a green screen. Either the machine has been upgraded (requiring a different video board) or it is not a Model III. I may be able to help you either way as I have been repairing Radio Shack computers since 1979. You could help me answer your questions by answering the following questions: 1. Does the computer have a silver or cream coloured cabinet? If the cabinet is silver in coulur, it is a Model III cabinet and the innards may have been renewed. As the Model III and Model IV (non-gate array) use the same footprint for their internal circuit boards and drive towers, they are easily interchanged. 2. If the cabinet is cream couloured it is most likely a Model IV gate-array. Robert M. (Bob) Donan E-mail: donan@utk.edu Graduate Teaching Associate Department of Human Resource Development The University of Tennessee 310 Jessie Harris Knoxville, TN 37996-1900 (423) 974-2574 Department. (423) 579-2808 Residence From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 21 11:26:10 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: HORRAY!!! (And a little boo...) In-Reply-To: <34752293.20B03061@batelco.com.bh> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, HOTZE wrote: > Okay.... possibly keyboard, but probably HDD. I tried my current keyboard... > it's a Windows 95, and I still got that error. > WAIT! An XT will *NOT* take a new keyboard. You have to have an XT keyboard. Don't disassemble anything yet! See if there's an XT/AT switch on the keyboard (Probably not). I may be able to locate an XT keyboard here... but I think they're all in use. At echool there's still a large amount of them. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 21 11:32:54 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: Well, the 34a is back among the living... Message-ID: IT runs again, boots RT-11. The decision to stop screwing with it came when I realized I didn't have any 18b RAM boards, and RSTS won't run in 64KW of core. (128KB). So, I'll have to get something lighter for it to run if it's to be timesharing. Or get RAM. I may do that today. All the RAM I have is 22b boards from the '44. My next project will be to get that running, then maybe the VAX 750. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 21 11:59:29 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: TRS 80 with Green Screen Message-ID: <199711211759.AA26132@world.std.com> Thus wrote: Message-ID: <3475D606.6200@hf.intel.com> > From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk > Subject: Re[2]: Talk Of Building A Computer... (Don't react until you read this first part through:) You can of course never build a real classic computer, by definition its not a real classic unless its really old and was built by people who were, at the time, working with state of the art components and techniques. Part of the attraction of the old machines is that they subtly document the skills, preconceptions and ignorance of their designers and the prevailing conventional wisdom. Another part of the attraction is to have a piece of equipment that has been in existence for so long and still works. So the best you could ever do is come close. Any attempt will be a compromise of some sort, so an interesting question is how close is close enough? The closest I think is to attempt to exactly recreate a particular early machine. Chris Burton is doing this with the Manchester SSEM and Tony Sale with the Colossus, both with significant help from other folks in the Computer Conservation Society. I've seen them in progress, they are both fabulously, meticulously accurate (as far as I can tell) and very nearly as much fun as if the original machines still existed. And despite all the help they are largely one-man projects, or could have been, which shows that its actually possible to consider doing it "right" by yourself if you have the time. Sort of like building a boat or an airplane. People can do that. All this having been said, I'm sure you feel as I do that it would be fun to build a machine in the classic style but an exact recreation is too much. So how authentic do you have to be? My point is this - *** Its up to you ***. Since any such project is necessarily a compromise, the exact tradeoffs are not really important. Your project should reflect what you want from it, other people's opinion doesn't matter unless its a group effort. Here are a some projects I personnally find interesting: 1. A small Williams-tube memory. Designed and built from scratch using 6SN7's and a common 5" oscilloscope CRT like maybe a 5GP1. (Chris has beaten me to this but it doesn't matter - for that matter, Williams beat us both; the fun part is doing it yourself.) 2. A complete 32-bit CPU and memory in the classic style, an accumulator machine, built in just 4 parts: a FPGA, DRAM, EPROM and clock. This is easily possible with existing technology. It would also have a 2.5" IDE disk drive for mass storage and a small printer and keyboard for user I/O. It would be fun to do and would demonstrate the incredible miniaturization of electronics when compared with my room sized IBM 7094. 3. Emulators for all my old machines, and machines I wish I had. This is the only project I've actually made any progress on. So do what you find most compelling. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are some thoughts on the current proposal (building a machine in the classic style of a tube machine but with discrete transistors to be more practical), some of these reinforce comments others have already made: Your main problem is not the logic, it is the memory. There is no old memory that is anywhere near as easy to use as, say, SRAM. Your major choices are core, magnetic drum/disk, or delay line. Core is going to be a lot of work. Drum or disk will require expertise in mechanical fabrication but is pretty attractive otherwise. Acoustic delay line (the only kind with reasonable capacity) may be best but will require some research and experimentation. I would recommend magnetostrictive wire acoustic delay line memory if you can figure out how to build it and don't mind having a very small memory. About the logic, while very early tube circuits were strange using multiple grids, in most tube computer circuits the actual logic was done with diodes. The tubes then invert and drive the next stage. Flip-flops were used for temporary state storage and sometimes for registers. A very common computer tube in the US was the 5965 dual triode. To see some IBM 705 circuit drawings (all but the inverter, which apparently wasn't used much in this machine but was used in others such as the 709) look at http://www.teleport.com/~prp/collect/705dwg/ The diode/tube logic translates very nicely into common early transistor circuits such as RTL, RCTL and DTL. For a project like this I would recommend building a serial accumulator machine, one which works on one bit at a time and has a single architecturally visible register, like the PDP-8. It will have much less logic than a parallel or multiple register machine and will be very classic. A serial CPU will be a good match with serial memory such as drum or delay line memory. A good, pretty clean example is the Royal McBee LGP-30. Better is the SWAC which had a very good clean minimal architecture but was parallel, a serial version would be pretty easy. Note that small tube machines like the LGP-30 and Bendix G-15 have only around 300 tubes. To get an idea of how big it would be, the Packard Bell PB250 (see http://www.teleport.com/~prp/collect/mini.html ) is just what I've been talking about - serial, transistors (RCTL) and delay line memory. It takes up half a 19" rack, same as a PDP-8 but I think the logic is physically less dense. About a quarter of the volume is taken up by the memory. Paul From henrio at edu.tsai.es Wed Nov 19 18:45:31 1997 From: henrio at edu.tsai.es (Sergio Izquierdo Garcia) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: IBM s/36 Message-ID: <3473882B.2E60@edu.tsai.es> Hi all! I?m afraid this computer is off-topic (dated 1988). Sorry. An IBM 5363-I has recently been given to me, but I don?t know anything at all about its internal architecture or capabilities. I only own the Central Unit; no cables, no floppies, no tapes, no manuals, no terminals. * It has two 15-pin sub-d connectors in one expansion card. They seem to be for attaching two serial terminals (syncronous? type 5250?) * In another expansion board it has a 9-pin sub-d connector. * There are too four twin-axial connectors. Can anybody help me on this subject? Thanks in advance. -- Sergio Izquierdo Garcia mailto:henrio@edu.tsai.es From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 21 13:05:40 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: <3475D606.6200@hf.intel.com> from "Paul Pierce" at Nov 21, 97 10:42:14 am Message-ID: <9711211905.AA26950@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1381 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971121/9ffe0b41/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at ricochet.net Fri Nov 21 15:31:18 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: HORRAY!!! (And a little boo...) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971121132909.39d77530@ricochet.net> At 05:56 AM 11/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >Okay.... possibly keyboard, but probably HDD. I tried my current keyboard... >it's a Windows 95, and I still got that error. Try -- it's a listing of the various POST (Power-On Self Test) error codes. (Or, do a search at AltaVista () on <"power on self test" and error> (with quotes, no <>'s.)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 21 15:41:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: <9711211905.AA26950@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Nov 21, 97 11:05:40 am Message-ID: <9711212141.AA31467@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1540 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971121/accf5688/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Nov 21 12:09:46 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it In-Reply-To: <199711211521.AA12774@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711212304.SAA06544@mail.cgocable.net> > <> > You mean, there's still another educational institution that uses VAX > <> > Notes as a major means of mass communication? > > < > <> The vax email > > I have VAXnotes up and running on my collection of vaxen here. Trying to > workup CMUip slip or slirp. I think you're trying to use SLIP which is bit nonstandard and few actually use one. Try PPP? This one is more compatiable. > > What I like about Vaxnotes was you coul have public conferences or private > authorized people only conferences. Agreed! I love that and the discussions is very good and very rare bad posters get kicked about no mercilessly. And very good funny off topics from time to time like here. :) Jason D. > Allison > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 21 17:10:12 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 Message-ID: <199711212310.AA18565@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711212310.SAA07682@mail.cgocable.net> > > > You mean, there's still another educational institution that uses VAX > > > Notes as a major means of mass communication? > > > > > > What's your mailer? > > > > One thing, Notes is kind of internal "newsgroups" that you can > > subscribe while as authorized users logged on there. > > I know all about it. I'm required to use it daily, both for work and for > class. I was just surprised to hear of a fellow Notes-user. Really! At least 2 I know of used vaxens and at my college. This kind is excellent for average students' needs. > > The vax email > > program that you write and reply to is PMDF and has POP3 server as > > well. > > We have no POP server here (or we do, but we have no dialup PPP service, > so it's useless unless you're connected to the network). We use Dreams as > an interface to PMDF, which has its nice features. Suggest: Better get that POP3 and PPP set up. They make vaxens more useful. And there's Alpha based vaxens. That's what exactly my college use right now for past few years now. POP3 is part of PMDF standard I think. When I was visiting my friends back at college I used POP3 to gather in my emails including this mailing list from my hometown account. That made PPP link so useful. > > Also it has newsgroups reader on there but it's too clumsy and > > hard to use. > > SLRN can be compiled under VMS (at least, 0.9.0.0 could be). I find it a > lot easier to use than NEWSRDR. > > -- > Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu > Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH > It is good to rock. It is very good to rock wearing a big ass pumpkin on your > head. It is very, very good if that pumpkin is on fire. --Jessica Stern > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Nov 21 12:24:00 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: <199711212310.AA18565@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711212318.SAA09195@mail.cgocable.net> > > Permalloy was a common one and the size was generally 50 mils or smaller. > TX2 used this with 80mil od and 50 mil ID, it switch time was 1uS and > required 800ma to switch and yeilded 100mv if it switched. There was > no data given if it didn't switch but I'd bet 20mv would be believable. > Cycle time for a memory with cores like that would be 3-5us. The TX2 > ran them at 5uS. 800mA to switch! Ouch! No wonder the PSU was so bulky. > Other materials can be used but a good sharp B-H curve is desired and > saturable ferrites were used for the smaller 30-40 mil cores. Saturable > ferrites are used in power conversion in current designs so they exist. > There is a relationship between core size, material and speed. > > > Turns are 1, and the current from some of the older stuff was around > 400-800ma and the smaller later stuff in the 100-200ma region. > > > This would be interesting. Additionally if it could be applied to some > of the core planes out there with ??? characteristics and origins it may > help. there was an article written back in the late 70s in BYTE on using > CC core memories. > > FYI the TX2 used 64x64(4kbit) core planes for main memory to make a larger > 256x256x38 bit memory. The fast memory(registers) were 64x19bits using two > cores per bit (bigger signal less noise). the array was 8x8 using 128 > cores. > > A small 8x8 or 16x16 array would be trivial to wire and drive. It's the > timing for the read pulse and keeing noise out of things that is twitchy. Truth. Trying to time right time to catch the bounce back and avoid the read pulse that is there on the sense wire. Yeah, it's read in serially fashion because that one wire is strung back and forth through all cores just once. You have to fashion the circuit to retore the orignal bits because the read process destroys the data. Good info how that core worked in general sense was shown in LIFE computer storage. Find it if you can at local library. > Allison Troll From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 21 17:25:26 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:42 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: <199711212310.AA18565@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 21, 97 06:10:12 pm Message-ID: <9711212325.AA31939@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2947 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971121/49bdba10/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 21 17:33:34 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: <199711212318.SAA09195@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 21, 97 06:24:00 pm Message-ID: <9711212333.AA31238@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971121/32911677/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Fri Nov 21 18:34:10 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: <9711212325.AA31939@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > There was also a half-way decent Radio-Electronics article on the subject. > In the mid-to-late-70's surplus core planes were readily available from > the surplus dealers like Meshna, Poly-Paks, etc. Unfortunately these > are no longer as easily available on the surplus market, which is the > reason why I'm thinking about finding suitable readily-available materials > so that people can make their own core planes from scratch. Actually, the DoD is selling lots of core these days. They all have part numbers from Hughes, Sikorsky, etc., so I can only assume that they are all things for custom military applications. Of course, you did say "easily"... William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 21 18:44:24 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 21, 97 07:34:10 pm Message-ID: <9711220044.AA30365@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971121/30636b97/attachment.ksh From jruschme at exit109.com Fri Nov 21 18:52:54 1997 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: Mac286 In-Reply-To: <347381F8.7CC4@eos.ncsu.edu> from chimin mao at "Nov 20, 97 00:20:51 am" Message-ID: <199711220052.TAA05440@tigger.exit109.com> > I recently got a AST Mac286 NuBus board but no SW. Can you share your SW > with me, if you have one. I put up a Web page devoted to the Mac286 and the little I know about it. The URL is: http://www.exit109.com/~jruschme/Mac286.html You can d/l a copy of the software from there. Good luck with the board... <<>> From william at ans.net Fri Nov 21 18:56:30 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: <3475D606.6200@hf.intel.com> Message-ID: > Your main problem is not the logic, it is the memory. There is no old > memory that is anywhere near as easy to use as, say, SRAM. Your major > choices are core, magnetic drum/disk, or delay line. Core is going to be > a lot of work. Drum or disk will require expertise in mechanical > fabrication but is pretty attractive otherwise. Acoustic delay line (the > only kind with reasonable capacity) may be best but will require some > research and experimentation. I would recommend magnetostrictive wire > acoustic delay line memory if you can figure out how to build it and > don't mind having a very small memory. I would think a storage tube idea would be fairly easy (?!) to do, as it would not require any odd materials. The hardest thing to find might be a correct lense for the pickup tube. As mentioned before, a common CRT would probably work just fine. The electronics to drive the two tubes would not be bad at all - line counting circuits have been in use for many years, and they can be suprisingly simple (just do not think binary!). The drawback is that the resulting system would have such a small capacity for all of the bulk (one of the reasons for the downfall of the storage tube for computers). That, or use a radar pointed at the moon for one hell of a delay line... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Nov 21 19:04:10 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: <9711220044.AA30365@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > Hmm... I wonder what the DoD procedure is for erasing (possibly classified) > information from core? There is a procedure for erasing stuff like this - it can be found in (at least) older Xicor books. It generally involves writing and erasing patterns and zeros to the memory quite a great deal (thus, used EEPROMs from the military should be suspect, as they could be worn out). > Or have the security folks completely ignored > the issues of nonvolatile storage? Ignored, or overreacted (just like the shovels a buddy had to break the handles off of, just because their part number showed them to be included in an antenna guy kit that required demilling). > Last time I was involved with such procedures, hard drives were melted > with thermite, and remaining ashes/parts were trucked into a secured > area where they were buried (and kept under guard). Yes, government machines are often missing drives. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Nov 21 19:56:44 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: <9711220044.AA30365@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Dumb vintage memory idea #2: I wonder if one could make a memory array consisting neon bulbs (NE-2s) and diodes. Both are mighty cheap and plentiful, and it might just work for a very slow array. That negative resistance portion of the NE-2s curve may be able to be exploited. Give each one just enough current to keep alive, pulse them to set a one, read them using the leakage current, and kill the current to reset to zero. It may be very similar to a core array. William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 21 20:04:33 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 21, 97 08:56:44 pm Message-ID: <9711220204.AA28556@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1065 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971121/609be175/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Fri Nov 21 20:23:53 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 In-Reply-To: <9711220204.AA28556@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > I've done it, and it works, to an extent. I once built a binary > counter out of neon bulbs (i.e. several flip-flops strung together) > and with with some sorting out of neon bulbs and careful setting of > B+ voltage got it fairly stable. Unfortunately, the ambient light > in the room shifted operating points around considerably, as the > ionizability of the neon bulbs shifts around depending on the > ambient light level. Yes, light is a factor. Some old telco equipment has lights (non-neon) inside the case, just to stabilize things. I was thinking about one bulb per bit. Imagine this: the memory is laid out as an X Y grid, just like core plane. Each intersection has a bulb (with diodes, resistors, etc.) to a common. Under idle conditions, each X and Y line provides just enough current to keep the bulb voltage at the keep alive level. To set a bit, the corresponding X and Y lines would get a voltage boost - just enough that the correesponding bit fires, but not enough to fire an entire row. Clearing a bit would work in reverse - drop the X and Y lines just enough to kill the right bulb only. Reading a bit? Well, I am still working on that. Perhaps it could involve a destructive read (kill the bulb), and seeing what the common current does (no change if the bulb was already off, a little change if the read killed the ionization). For stability, I suppose one could go to the bigger VR tubes: 0A2, 0A3. 0D3s are very common, dirt cheap, pretty when they glow, and the classic "bottle" shape. > Neon bulbs certainly are readily available on the surplus market; I've > seen ads for large lots of NE-2's at a couple of cents a piece. I have a large lot (several hundred pieces)! Actually, neon bulbs are still used and still being made. And yes, they still are cheap, too! William Donzelli william@ans.net From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Nov 21 21:36:21 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: More boards today! VAX 780 and more... Message-ID: A whole lot, and all of it for $20! Any info on these appreciated. So, how close am I to building a 780? :) PDP-8 M8320 BUS LOADS M8315 KK8-A OMNIBUS CPU, 8/E INSTRUCTION SET M8317 OPTION BOARD #2, MEM EXT & TIMESHARE, BOOTSTRAP, PWR FAIL START SOME UNNUMBVERED VAX NETWORK BOARD, INTERFACED TO A APOLLO. M7769 KFQSA. (A SCSI adpater?) UNKNOWN: M8013 RLV11 DISK CONTROL X2 M8014 RLV11 BUS CONTROL EMULEX SC03 EMULEX TC12 X2 EMULEX CS02 DLV11-J (I know what THIS is!) M7138 QBUS TO LASER PRINTER DMA INTERFACE MODULE VAX 780: X3 M8210 32K X 72BIT MOS RAM [MS780] M8212 MS780-A MDT MEMORY DATA M8218 KA780, SBI LOW BITS INTERFACE M8226-C KA780, DEP, CPU DATA PATH E M8227 KA780, CPU DATA PATH D M8228 KA780, CPU DATA PATH C M8229 KA780, CPU DATA PATH A m8230 KA780, CEH CONDITION CODES, EXCPETIONS, HI BITS M8231 KA780, ICL, INTERRUPT CONTROL, LOW BITS M8232 KA780, CLK, CPU CLOCK M8233 KU780, WCS, WRITABLE CONTROL STORE M8234 KA780-A, PCS, PROM CONTROL STORE M8236 KA780, CIB, CPU CONSOLE INTERFACE M8238 KU780-A, 2K WCS X2 M8270 DW780-A USI, UNIBUS ADAPTER SBI INTERFACE X2 M8271 DW780-A, UNIBUS ADAPTER CONTROL M8272 DW780-A UNIBUS ADAPTER MAP & DATA PATH X2 M8273 DW780-A, UNIBUS ADAPTER ADDR m9040 11780, TRM SBI TERMINATOR VAX ??? L0007 11/750 MBA MASSBUS ADAPTER X8 L0200 4MB MOS ARRAY [MS86] X3 L0222 (MTM) MEM ARRAY TERMINAL BOARD [KA86] L0224 SBI/A-BUS TERMINATOR [KA86] X2 L0104 SBI INTERFACE FOR CI PORT L0100 CI LINK INTERFACE L0101 IPB (CI CONTROL STORE + PKT BUFF) L0201 CONSOLE CONTROL KA86] L0204 MBOX DATA PATH [KA86] L0206 IBOX DATA PATH [KA86] X2 L0207 IBOX CONTROL A [KA86] L0208 IBOX INST BUFF [KA86] L0212 SBIA SBI INTERFACE [KA86] X2 L0214 IBOX CONTROL B [KA86] L0215 CSA CONTROL STORE ARRAY [KA86] L9200 MEM LOAD FOR 8600 Whew! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 21 22:07:27 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: The XT Dilema In-Reply-To: <199711210706.CAA10923@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 21, 97 02:11:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3660 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971122/4e7fd874/attachment.ksh From francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net Sat Nov 22 00:14:44 1997 From: francois.auradon at worldnet.att.net (Francois Auradon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... References: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> <346F4720.60732039@cnct.com> Message-ID: <34767854.2FF6@worldnet.att.net> What are these cards for? I didn't think you could expand these AT&T UNIX machines. Are ther other card available? My system says Version 3.0 Main board P3...P5 (I just started it, gotta try the .!.). Later, Whoa Cool it works I mean the .!. I'll place it on my site. Now how can you tell if you have a 3b1? Maybe I'll just download the FAQ. Thank for the tip Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > And if you're interested, I may be able to supply a DOS-73 card -- I've > got a couple I'm not using much -- not much runs these days on an 8086 > with 512K and Hercules graphics. ------------------------------------------------------------ Francois Auradon Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Nov 21 17:26:22 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: The XT Dilema In-Reply-To: References: <199711210706.CAA10923@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 21, 97 02:11:23 am Message-ID: <199711220421.XAA01673@mail.cgocable.net> Snip > AFAIK it does neither. It just doesn't work, but it shouldn't cause any > damage. I read somewhere about that (hehe) dumb warning. What a chock! Thanks for clearing that up. No wonder I can't get a raster with no signal or a one dot. Oh, is that heater also runs directly off the fly? > > One odd feature of the original IBM mono monitor (5151) is that there's > no line (horizontal) osciallator. The Hsync pulses from the MDA card > drive the base of the line driver transistor (TR22), which is transformer > coupled to the line output transistor (HOT for US types), TR23. > > > > > > Have the monitor inspected and repaired by your friend who KNOWS > > electronics stuff and doing it for a living. Just in case. > > > Getting inside is the first problem. It's not at all obvious how to open > up the 5151 until you've done one. Here's how I do it. Unplug the monitor > from the mains before you start, and only do this if you know about > TV/monitor repair. There's a 13.2kV PSU in that case. > Mind you, the mains PSU is a linear device with a nice 50Hz transformer, > so at least there's no capacitors charged to full mains voltage. > > Prise (Pry) the 2 little blanking caps out at the front of the top > grille. Remove the screws found under them. > > Place the monitor face down, bottom surface towards you. Free the 2 cables > from the rear cover. Now undo the 2 screws at the front/bottom corners > that hold the cover on. There are 6 more screws in a 3*2 rectangle. Undo > the 4 _rearmost_ ones only. These screws hold the mains > transformer/heatsink chassis to the case. If you remove all 6 it will > fall onto the CRT, and may break it with the chance of a nasty implosion. That, I noticed when I loosen not remove all screws and rattled things and I noticed that. Strange design but dumb way to smash the nice tube with someone who assumed it's like other newer monitors... (Note, I PREFER amber tube medium fast or sharp color monitors) > Now lift off the cabinet. > > I have a circuit diagram (from the O&A TechRef) in front of me. The > circuitry is conventional : > > Low voltage AC from the mains transformer is rectified and smoothed to > provide 24V across C603. This is then regulated down to 15V by the 7815 > IC601 and the pass transistor TR24 (MJ2955, on the heatsink). You can > check foir 15V across C605 (or between the case of TR24 and the 0V line) > with the monitor turned on. > > The video circuit consists of the Hex O/C inverter IC201 (7406) and the > asociated componets (including the video input transistor TR18). This > circuit combines the V and I lines to produce analogue video on R207 (22 > Ohm). This is fed to the video output stage (TR19 as a common emitter > amplifer feeding TR20 as a common base amplifier). This is then coupled > to the cathode of the CRT. > > The vertical deflection system is a conventional design based on a > TDA1170 (IC401). There's not much I can say about this. > > The horizontal deflection system consists of the line driver transistor > TR22, the bas of which is driven by the Hsync signal. TR21 shorts the > base to the 0V rail in the event of the 15V rail overvoltaging, I guess > for X-ray protection. The collector load of TR22 is the driver > transformer T501, which drives the base of the line output transistor > TR23. The line output stage is conventional with the yoke driven from the > collector of TR23 via C505,and L502-504 and the collector load of TR232 > being the line output transformer T502. This produces the 55V supply for > the video stage (check on C508), the -170V supply for the CRT grid bias > (check on C507) and the 450V supply for the gun electrodes (check on > C509). The EHT (13.2kV) is also produced by the line output transformer, > of course. > > I hope that's of some use to you. Thank you! But for that monitor that old, I would just go ahead and check all solder joints (mainboard and the CRT board, replace all caps to keep it going and keep things sharp and nice and if the tube is hard to focus, replace it with a nicer amber or standard "neon" green that IBM used. I once priced a Mac (for Mac, Mac+ and SE/SE30) tube cost $30 new from a reseller and I'm sure that monochrome tube is equally cheap. Funny, that mainboard sit vertically on one side. Rather easy to see and solder away to your content! > > Troll > > -tony > Troll From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Nov 21 22:35:23 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: core memory, long. Message-ID: <199711220435.AA02319@world.std.com> <800mA to switch! Ouch! No wonder the PSU was so bulky. Actually its 800ma per bit, the half select lines were some 400ma each plus sense inhibit signals. A large memory could easily be in the several tens of amps with all the surrounding logic. Typical power systems for code machines were very robust and heavy. Message-ID: <34767CC2.B45C5873@cnct.com> jpero@cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > At 07:22 PM 11/19/97 +0000, you wrote: > > >Okay... I started all this stuff... and I'll end it... it *was* a mistake.... > > >but now, at least we know that until something BIG happens, the 10 yr. > > definition > > > > Or until somebody else new comes along. 8^) > Oh, my GAWD! :) > > It's going as long as we have newbies comes in, even happens on other > newsgroups and in our notes on vax at my college. Sheesh! It has been happening on Usenet for longer than some of our members have been out of diapers. It will _always_ be a factor in mailing lists and newsgroups. FAQs help a lot, but they are not always read. In mailing lists, the best bet seems to be to include the FAQ in the response to the Subscribe request. It would be even better if it were easy to require that the subscriber afirm that the FAQ had been read in return mail before the subscription actually started. But there is _still_ no way to guarantee that the FAQ was actually read, any more than we know that a politician swearing an oath to "preserve and protect the constitution of the United States" ever read that particular document. In the latter case of course all of the evidence is negative. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 22 00:50:18 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) References: <1.5.4.16.19971117180029.520f9b24@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <347680AA.53866F04@cnct.com> Uncle Roger wrote: > Any other thoughts on case designs? I still think the Lisa was beautiful, > and I'll have to check out the 3b1. This thread has turned into a serious discussion of _practicality_ of case designs -- a great subject. But my statement about the AT&T Unix PC 7300/3B1 case (and the 3B1 loses a lot) concerned only the aesthetics. Trust me, they're a bitch to work on, especially if there is a monitor (hardware) problem. [Sorry about the granularity of my participation here at present, but the firewall at my new job doesn't let me telnet to my ISP -- and it's two _corporations_ up. It'll take me a couple more weeks to get around it.] -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 22 00:59:15 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) References: Message-ID: <347682C3.B3B8E89B@cnct.com> William Donzelli wrote: > IBM has always been big on the ergonomics of their machines, especially > for servicing. Many IBM machines were leased, so when the things broke, > IBM had to fix them. Any time that the onsite engineer could shave off was > a savings for IBM. Ergonomics ain't got nothin' to do with serviceability. Compare a VW van with a Ford Aerostar. The Aerostar is _much_ more ergonomic. But the VW is a lot easier to work on. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From pjoules at enterprise.net Sat Nov 22 02:45:04 1997 From: pjoules at enterprise.net (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it References: <199711200306.WAA27756@mail.cgocable.net> <34767CC2.B45C5873@cnct.com> Message-ID: <34769B8F.DE410280@enterprise.net> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > It would be even better if it > were easy to require that the subscriber afirm that the FAQ had been > read in return mail before the subscription actually started. It helps that there is a bit at the bottom of the welcome message pointing out that anyone who does not prove that they have read that far and reply will not have their subscription completed. (If this is actually enforced) Regards Pete From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Thu Nov 20 03:45:26 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199711221347.IAA10320@smtp.interlog.com> On 18 Nov 97 at 22:21, William Donzelli wrote: > > The IBM PC used finely machined screws. The quality of cases diminished > > much from the original design. > > I think they reached their pinnacle with the PS/2s. Those machines really > are well designed. Later IBMs, like the Valuepoints, well, suck. > > Also, the really cheap PeeCees use screws that are stamped, and not > turned. This is one of the reasons that fine threads are still used. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > I've got an IBM 8580-111(full tower case). I love the solidity of the thing. Loosen 3 large screws with a . 25 coin and the side pops off. Recessed fold-up handle if your strong enough to carry it one-handed. I get incensed when newest-tech people suggest it could be used as a conversation-piece coffee table. But it certainly is strong enough. I also admire the MCA architecture which would have been the norm if IBM hadn't been so greedy. My other candidate for "way-cool" design is the Atari 130xe. Like a miniture ST whose modernistic design was undoubtably copied from it. The DEC Rainbow is also remarkable for it's example of how to give easy access to a board in confined space. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sat Nov 22 04:24:20 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <199711221347.IAA10320@smtp.interlog.com> References: Message-ID: <199711221519.KAA08679@mail.cgocable.net> > On 18 Nov 97 at 22:21, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > The IBM PC used finely machined screws. The quality of cases diminished > > > much from the original design. > > > > I think they reached their pinnacle with the PS/2s. Those machines really > > are well designed. Later IBMs, like the Valuepoints, well, suck. Usually NOT. Some do have suck factor some are so good. snip! > > William Donzelli > > william@ans.net > > > I've got an IBM 8580-111(full tower case). I love the solidity of > the thing. Loosen 3 large screws with a . 25 coin and the side pops > off. Recessed fold-up handle if your strong enough to carry it > one-handed. I get incensed when newest-tech people suggest it could > be used as a conversation-piece coffee table. But it certainly is > strong enough. I also admire the MCA architecture which would have > been the norm if IBM hadn't been so greedy. This is one of them I saw at computer shows, I could get one for $65 with 2 HD's in it, maybe 16mhz or 20mhz (tad slow for me). But I was LOOKING for that oh so elvsive, hard to get 25mhz cached motherboard. If one knows of one real cheap, that would be great. True but the MCA was still clocked 8mhz. :( What we need is "MCA II that roars at 66mhz with seamless PnP" if IBM is not so dumb. :) But I would be happy with a P70 (386dx 25mhz) or P75 lunchbox (P75 has plasma display, use real 486dx-33 but I heard some are successful to change CPU for dx2 66 even DX4 with right adapter, the package is PGA btw just tricky to change.) instead of model 80. Anyone knows who wants to rid of it dirt cheap? Linux is being worked on to support MCA bus machines. I also have a 50Z motherboard that works sort of but could anyone tell me what is common faults? This is 50Z that runs at 0 wait state instead of 1 wait states in earlier 50 motherboards. Also is there a good trick to interface standard 1.44 to that dodgy connector? Becaues I was totally succesful to drive those PS/2 720k drives on PeeCee's and tried same but with less success or vice vesa with standard FD 1.44 (maybe this one was bad, I got it from castoffs pile at my former worksite, on that 50Z motherboard. Did seeks and lights up. Even I tried a working PS/2 720k drive on it, it tried to boot off the diagnotic/setup disks that was known good. Yes, used right adapter as orignally made that I found at other junkyard. One time I overheard that in that old days when IBM was selling PS/2's that model 50/50Z chassis fan assembly was quoted $500?! Hard to believe that but is that true? Snip! > ciao larry > lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com > Troll From william at ans.net Sat Nov 22 09:29:39 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <347682C3.B3B8E89B@cnct.com> Message-ID: > Ergonomics ain't got nothin' to do with serviceability. Compare a VW > van with a Ford Aerostar. The Aerostar is _much_ more ergonomic. But > the VW is a lot easier to work on. "Ergonomics" does not apply to only the people that use the machines on a regular basis, but to anyone that uses the machines for anything, including service. IN the Aerostar example, Ford did all of their ergonomic goodies in the driver and passenger seats, but none under the hood. There is a whole subfield of industrial engineering that deals with the ergonomics of servicing equipment - how big to make access holes, ejectors for circuit boards, connector design, etc.. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sat Nov 22 09:46:41 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) In-Reply-To: <199711221519.KAA08679@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: > MCA was still clocked 8mhz. :( What we need is "MCA II that roars > at 66mhz with seamless PnP" if IBM is not so dumb. :) The MCA on the PS/2 is "dumb" MCA. Shortly after the PS/2 was released, the RS/6000 came about and MCA was enhanced, as well as a few features became "public" about the original MCA. Included in the enhancements were data streaming, parity, and a much improved exception handling system. I do not know about the more modern MCA machines - perhaps the newer RS/6000s have a newer MCA. I would certainly hope so. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at wco.com Sat Nov 22 10:21:32 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it In-Reply-To: <34769B8F.DE410280@enterprise.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Peter Joules wrote: > Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > > It would be even better if it > > were easy to require that the subscriber afirm that the FAQ had been > > read in return mail before the subscription actually started. > > It helps that there is a bit at the bottom of the welcome message > pointing out that anyone who does not prove that they have read that far > and reply will not have their subscription completed. (If this is > actually enforced) Hmmm. Perhaps there should be a quiz during the subscription process whereby you are asked 10 questions that you will only know the answer to if you've read the FAQ. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From Zeus334 at aol.com Sat Nov 22 11:08:53 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 Message-ID: <971122120852_-2142121631@mrin38> Could someone tell me what exactly "core memory" is? From mentions of ferrite, I am guessing it was some kind of magnetic thing, but what exactly? Acoustic delay line? What is that? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 22 12:20:35 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 is back in one general area! Message-ID: I moved the parts back to Tek-star. Now to start reassembling the beast... It's now in 2 places at once: My house and here. A week ago, it was in 5 places at once: My house, here, SSI, my car, and Jeff's house. I'll bring the BAs in and I can get to work! From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Nov 22 13:09:15 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: Commodore PET finds. Message-ID: Well, after a long dry spell (partly self-induced) I came home this week with a few machines. I picked up 5 PET 4032's (one labelled 'No Good') a VIC-20, a 4022 printer, 5 datasettes, a 1571 disk drive (it rattles, i'm not hopeful), a box of VIC power adaptors (the 10vac ones) and RF modulators. I also got 4 'MSD Super Disk Drive' model SD-1. These look similar in design to the external TRS-80 drives (except they're cream coloured). They have two 6-pin DIN plugs and an IEEE-488(?) plug. Are these what I think they are? (Drives that will work on the VIC-20/C-64 and PETs) I don't have any 6pin cables to try these on a VIC. I haven't tried them on a PET yet, either. Any idea what format these would be? (2040, 8050?) Finally, I picked up a bit of PET software. I got five copies of VisiCalc. It turns out, however, that this software requires a ROM chip to be installed in the machine it is to be run on. (an early dongle?) No problem, five VisiCalcs, five PETs... they must have the ROMs in them, right?... wrong. Not-a. So... does anyone have a dump of the 'VisiCalc for PET' ROM that they could email to me so I can try out this classic piece of software? (and preserve it, of course.) Oh, for those who follow the prices... I got the lot for $75CAD (about $55USD) A little more than I wanted to pay, but it was a school board, so I guess it's a good cause. ttfn srw From manney at nwohio.com Sat Nov 22 14:29:17 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it Message-ID: <199711222044.MAA21798@mx3.u.washington.edu> > > > It would be even better if it > > > were easy to require that the subscriber afirm that the FAQ had been > > > read in return mail before the subscription actually started. > > > > It helps that there is a bit at the bottom of the welcome message > > pointing out that anyone who does not prove that they have read that far > > and reply will not have their subscription completed. (If this is > > actually enforced) > > Hmmm. Perhaps there should be a quiz during the subscription process > whereby you are asked 10 questions that you will only know the answer to > if you've read the FAQ. It seems to me that I'd rather put up with a few "dumb" questions -- something I get all the time, in my computer business) than alienate, or scare away new users by quizzing on the FAQ. People were patient and gentle with me when I was starting out, and freely shared their knowledge with me without censure. Let's give the new people a break -- encourage the reading of the FAQ, certainly, but be patient with silly mistakes. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 22 14:42:20 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: So far, so good... Will DD11-CK work in an 11/44? Message-ID: OK. Now the 44 starts, and I can talk to ODT. I removed all the boards & backplanes except the CPU. There are 2 free preiph slots on the CPU, it's got 1.5M RAM. Now I have to add a second backplane for the DZs and the UDA50. So, I have a new DD11-CK. Will that go in a 44? From bmpete at swbell.net Sat Nov 22 15:21:03 1997 From: bmpete at swbell.net (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: 10 years and change/use it or lose it In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <347c4ae3.6451820@mail.swbell.net> On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:21:32 -0800 (PST), someone said: >Hmmm. Perhaps there should be a quiz during the subscription process I've always thought that a good alternative would be to send pieces of the FAQ at regular intervals. If you're on the list for a while you'll see it all, including updates. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 22 15:17:00 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: So far, so good... Will DD11-CK work in an 11/44? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The answer is no. It has a different power connector. But it DOES work in the other BA-11! So, I'm back to a multi-box configuration... From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 22 15:48:30 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 241 Message-ID: <199711222148.AA00153@world.std.com> References: <199711222148.AA00153@world.std.com> Message-ID: <347e553b.9099864@mail.swbell.net> On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:48:30 -0500, you said: >Could someone tell me what exactly "core memory" is? From mentions of A small ferrite doughnut, with three wires threaded through the hole, for each bit. Magnetized in one direction represents a one, in the opposite direction represents a zero. _______________ Barry Peterson bmpete@swbell.net Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 22 16:02:05 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: Here we go... multi-BA problems. Message-ID: The CPU *REFUSES* to go to the run state when powered on. Both BAs come on, the DEC power bus is connected. I have the cable correct, it's not twisted... What did I do? Current config: +------+ +------+ | BA #1| | BA #2| | [1] ======= [2] | +------+ +------+ [1] CPU backplane only [2] DD11-CK with the UDA in it. The terminator is in BA #2 From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 22 17:30:57 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: One from the 'believe it or not' file... References: <3.0.3.32.19971116084043.0088c4c0@agora.rdrop.com> <346F4720.60732039@cnct.com> <34767854.2FF6@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <34776B31.8535B802@cnct.com> Francois Auradon wrote: > > What are these cards for? I didn't think you could expand these AT&T > UNIX machines. Are ther other card available? My system says Version 3.0 > Main board P3...P5 (I just started it, gotta try the .!.). > Later, Whoa Cool it works I mean the .!. I'll place it on my site. > Now how can you tell if you have a 3b1? Maybe I'll just download the > FAQ. > Thank for the tip > > Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > And if you're interested, I may be able to supply a DOS-73 card -- I've > > got a couple I'm not using much -- not much runs these days on an 8086 > > with 512K and Hercules graphics. The DOS-73 card is basically a standalone PC that occupies one of the three expansion slots of a Unix PC. It's the same concept as the later "Bridge Board" for the Amiga 2000 etc. It's got an 8086 and 512K RAM that I've never seen anybody come up with a way to add to. With the permission of the 68010 and Unix it treats the Unix PC display like a Hercules monochrome graphics adapter. The manufacturer was Alloy. In all truth, since no software newer than Wordstar 5.5 runs on it, it's about as useful as the tits on a steer. Especially since the system's limited to 360K floppies (720K if you make unsupported modifications). -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 22 17:56:35 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: What's the audible alarm in a BA11 for? Message-ID: I removed the backplanes to re-add them one at a time. Now the BA beeps at me. Whats the beep for? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 22 17:20:20 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: IBM 5151 monitor (was Re : The XT Dilema) In-Reply-To: <199711220421.XAA01673@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 21, 97 11:26:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1621 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971122/51321a43/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sat Nov 22 18:10:38 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:43 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... References: <3473FB1E.F55CCA5@batelco.com.bh> <34742EA9.3E9C@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <3477747E.14271F2F@cnct.com> Hans B Pufal wrote: > I see this as more than just an academic project, rebuilding these old > machines in current technology is really the only way in which they can > be preserved and made available for study, excepting perhaps via > emulators (another of my passions). > > Take the idea even further : the technology exists today to build most > if not all first generations machines on a single chip. Indeed I wonder > if an FPGA might not be able to be reconfigurable to build many of these > early machines, certainly a few FPGA's together with the new > programmable routiing chips (from GateWay?) should do the job. Thus we > can build on hardware base capable of emulating or recreating many of > the early machines, just add software. Another fun project would be that nowawadays with modern materials and computer controlled machining, it is now possible to make parts to the tolerances necessary to build a functional Analytical Engine. Anybody know where I can get a good copy of Babbage's designs? -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 22 17:31:19 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Here we go... multi-BA problems. In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 22, 97 10:02:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1253 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971122/e010547c/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 22 18:10:33 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Here we go... multi-BA problems. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > Do you get _anything_ on the console terminal of the 11/44? (like, for > example, ?CP not started - a classic message that nearly always means > grant problems)? I fixed that when I removed the RH11. But now I have the beeping BA. > BTW, what sort of power connector do you have on the new DD11? Most > systems use a 15 pin connector for power and a 6 pin one for the power > status and line clock signals. Some very early machines used a little PCB > thing that fitted into one of the backplane connectors. And a few early > 11/45's used 8-pin mate-n-locks, like the current loop connectors. It doesn't work. It has normal plugs, but it can't get DC right. It trips something that resets the PSU. > Just to confim the obvious. You have a unibus cable from the A&B > connectors on the far left of the CPU backplane to the A&B connectors on > the far right of the DD11, right? And a terminator in the A&B connectors > at the far left of the DD11. Yes. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 22 18:59:03 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: What's the audible alarm in a BA11 for? In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 22, 97 11:56:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 887 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971123/58f1d63a/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 22 18:26:44 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: What's the audible alarm in a BA11 for? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > Eh??? What beep?? AFAIK no BA11 had a beeper fitted as standard. Pretty. > > Firstly, BA11 covers a heck of a lot of PDP11 mounting boxes, from the > tiny BA11-V (4 dual-height Q-bus slots in a case the size of a TU58 tape > drive) up to at least a BA11-F (21" high rackmount thing with over 30 > slots, and a separate H742 PSU). What mounting box are you working with? > BA11-K. > Secondly, some switch-mode PSUs will make audible noises if they're > overloaded (shorted), or if they're unhappy for some other reason - > basically the trasformer/inductor core vibrates at the switching > frequnecy, and this may fall into the audible range. A few also do this > if the load is too light - so if you run them with no load they may well > do this. That sounds like what's happening here. That's it. I can ignore that? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 22 18:44:45 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Progress! Message-ID: OK, now the lights on the UDA strobe. The drive is not connected. Typing boot du0 gets me this >>>b du0 CONSOLE ?20 MPC=15 >>> is that normal? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 22 18:48:33 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: No Progress! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Umm.. it does the same thing with the drive connected. And my manual says ?20 means BUS ERROR. What does this sound like? &*&^R^%^&%#%%*$#$&^ grants again! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 22 18:51:38 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: No Progress! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Now, when I added NPGs before & after the UDA (By the Unibus ribbon and the terminator) i get >>>b du0 ERROR 17777707 165702 CONSOLE >>> From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Nov 23 10:12:52 1997 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Progress report Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971123111252.00686990@mail.wincom.net> Early in the summer I got involved with a fellow who is attempting to start a science museum in Windsor, Ont. and undertook to work on the computer collection. Following Sam's suggestion I inserted a small ad in our local weekly shopping guide: "Old computers wanted, working or not, for museum collection." with my name and phone number. This has been in three times at about three week intervals, and so far has resulted in turning up over fifty computers. Apparently word is spreading, for I have had calls as much as two weeks after the ad ran. Also I feel having my name in it is important for it lets people know who they are dealing with. Also on two occasions folks who I knew years ago in other organizations have brought me their unwanted machines. How one answers the phone can be important. What seems to work best, when some one asks if I am the fellow collecting old computers, and what kind, or how old, is to ask "What do you have, and how much are you asking for it?" In a lot of cases they will say they don't want anything for it, they just want it out of the basement, and even an XT or an Apple clone might have a lot of useful parts. So far we have turned up lots of XT and Apple clones along with an assortment of TRS-80s, T.I.s Commodores, Ataris and Timex Sinclairs, but an Osborne and a DEC Rainbow have come along as well as the fragments of a Basic 4, a Philips Micom, and a Wang wordprocesser. Also about a dozen assorted calculators have made an appearence. While I keep dreaming of a PDP11, or a VAX, we have to realize that Windsor, (pop 200,000) is not as fertile a field as you folks have in the western states. Cheers Charlie Fox From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Nov 23 10:45:37 1997 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971123114537.0068a8f8@mail.wincom.net> On a TRS-80 Model I, no expansion unit, I am getting the left half of the screen filled with graphics and the right half with scrambled text. Does anyone have a suggestion of where I should start looking for the solution to this problem? Thanks Charlie Fox From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Sun Nov 23 11:13:53 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971123114537.0068a8f8@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > On a TRS-80 Model I, no expansion unit, I am getting the left half of the > screen filled with graphics and the right half with scrambled text. Does > anyone have a suggestion of where I should start looking for the solution > to this problem? Well, it's been 5 years since I read the Model 1 technical reference manual, but I can still remember some bits of it (I hope).. Start by opening the case, laying the 2 boards out component-side up, and connecting power and video. If you want step-by-step instructions on how to do that, please ask. Turn on the machine. Is it fixed? If so, suspect a solder-ball short (these were quite common one some batches, I believe) or a problem in the keyboard cable, which carries the Z80 bus. In fact, checking that keyboard cable for continuity (with the machine off, of course) wouldn't be a bad idea. OK, still not fixed? Check the PSU. The 0V line is the -ve side of the largest capacitor on the board, and all the supply rails go to the DRAM chips (-5V on pin 1, +12V on pin 8, +5v on pin 9). Now switch off and pull the shunt block (it looks like an IC, but has metal shorting bars on it only). That disables all the DRAMs. Turn on again. On a Level1 machine (and I believe a level 2 machine, but my manual isn't that clear) you'll get a 32*16 display of colons. If that occurs, then you've probably got RAM or RAM addressing problems. Switch off again, and pull the ROMs (or on a level 2 machine, pull the 24 pin ribbon cable from the ROM socket). Turn on again. The Z80 data bus is pulled high, so the machine executes continual RST38 instructions and fills all of the memory with 39 00 (the return address, of course). The display will fill with alternate '@' and '9' symbols, in 64*16 mode. If that works, then you have ROM trouble, I think. If you still don't get the right display, reseat the Z80, and then use a scope/logic probe/LogicDart to find out (a) what the Z80 is doing, (b) what the buses are doing and (c) what the video controller is doing. > > Thanks > Charlie Fox > > -tony From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Nov 23 11:11:08 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Update on finds Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971123171108.006878c8@pop3.concentric.net> Well the last 3 weeks have been pretty slow and more people have started going to the thrift's that I shop. I'm still trying to work out a deal to save alot of classic's setting in a warehouse here in Minn. and will let everyone know when and if they come avaiable. I did find a few items such as several pairs of black paddles made by Apple for the II series I guess (they were free), a Mac SE/30 with HD problems for $5, Apple 2400 data modem with power supply for free, 2 PS/2-70 386 for $5 each one is load with memory and all the slots are full of cards, have pulled them yet to see what they are, and the other has no memory in it or extra cards, a Commodore 1571 drive for $5, Franklin Ace 1100 with Franklin video monitor both were free and I have tested them yet, Apple IIc power supply for free, AppleColor Composite for $5 and it works great, IBM 4019-E01 laser for 19.95 needs a little work, A NEC kB MMTKB-1001 for 2.95, and a 2600 cartridge called "Kool-Aid Man" for .25. I'm also still trying to get away to test the 10 Sym-1's that picked up a few weeks ago so that I can trade or sell them. I also found in the same box 12 Intel boards dated copyright 1976 with white keys, a red lED readout, a boxed area marked Bus Expansion Drivers filled with various chips, TTY interface boxed area, PROM area, Address Decoder area, and all kinds of things on these boards. Does anyone know what thses units are ? I plan to keep one and trade or sell the others if I can figure their value. Times like these are when I could use a digital camera and my own web site to show strange finds to everyone for help in figuring out what it is. Well a new week is starting and a four day weekend so I hope to shop alot. Keep computing and have a great Thanksgiving - John From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Nov 23 11:21:51 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Update on finds In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971123171108.006878c8@pop3.concentric.net> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Nov 23, 97 11:11:08 am Message-ID: <9711231721.AA00492@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971123/4b9c9429/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Nov 23 12:35:00 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Rubbery Bits Gone Gooey Message-ID: <199711231835.KAA06876@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Lately a friend has been trying to copy a tape for an HP 2645 terminal. Thus far he has discovered a problem with tape drives in two terminals. His description of the problem is that, when used, the motor capstan in the tape drive "melts". In one case he has not been able to get all the ex-capstan goo off of the belt capstan in the cartridge; fortunately that was a blank tape. My first thought was, hmm, this sounds like the problem the calculator folks have with the rubbery wheels that go gooey. I have one of these terminals too, but it's a bit buried in storage and I haven't got it out yet. (In fact, the tape contains games and he is trying to copy it because I expressed interest...of course, now I am thinking that when I dig the terminal out I need to open it up and check the capstans before I go and jam a tape in.) Instead I found the May 1976 issue of the HP Journal, which was smaller, lighter, closer to the front, and does a pretty good job of demonstrating how proud HP was of having fit tape drives to HP 264x terminals. What have I found out? The motor capstan has an aluminum core with an elastomer coating that is ground to the right size during manufacture. Said elastomer was chosen for quick recovery from the dent that forms in it when the loaded tape isn't moving (as the capstan is held against the tape cartridge's belt capstan). So now I guess I have two questions. One is just what do the calculator folks do about rubbery wheels gone gooey? And the other is, can I do something like that for these drives? Given that the object of this capstan is to press against and drive something less flexible than a magnetic card (the belt capstan in a DC100 tape cartridge) I'm not sure the same sort of material would work. And an observation: the HP 9815A desktop calculator I have sitting here seems to use a similar drive (at least the capstan looks similar when I peer in the slot), and I think the HP 85 does too. -Frank McConnell From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 23 12:54:05 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Update on finds Message-ID: <199711231854.AA05009@world.std.com> <> I also found in the <> same box 12 Intel boards dated copyright 1976 with white keys, a red lED <> readout, a boxed area marked Bus Expansion Drivers filled with various <> chips, TTY interface boxed area, PROM area, Address Decoder area, and al <> kinds of things on these boards. Does anyone know what thses units are ? < I have to say I love my new Starlet (PC-8401-A, CP/M laptop) but it seems to have a problem. When turned off, the memory gets all scrambled. The longer it's off, the more scrambled it gets, until any saved files are gone and the directory entries are filled with garbage filenames. Formatting RAM1 clears it, but it will happen again. I've tried leaving it plugged in and made sure that there are fresh batteries in it. Nothing helps. Also, when it's on, the low battery light comes on or flickers, even if its plugged in. Thanks in advance... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gzozman at escape.ca Sun Nov 23 14:40:10 1997 From: gzozman at escape.ca (Grant Zozman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Commodore PET finds. References: Message-ID: <347894AA.9EF@escape.ca> Scott Walde wrote: > > I also got 4 'MSD Super Disk Drive' model SD-1. These look similar in > design to the external TRS-80 drives (except they're cream coloured). > They have two 6-pin DIN plugs and an IEEE-488(?) plug. Are these what I > think they are? (Drives that will work on the VIC-20/C-64 and PETs) I > don't have any 6pin cables to try these on a VIC. I haven't tried them on > a PET yet, either. Any idea what format these would be? (2040, 8050?) The MSD drive will definitely work with a C-64. By extension, I belive this means it will also work with the VIC-20. Not sure about PET compatibility, though I believe the IEEE-488 interface was provided for PET's. I had an MSD for my C-64 years ago. It was an SD-2; you guessed it; a dual disk drive of the same style you have. It read/wrote nearly all native 1541 disks. The only exception was that a few of the more brutal copy protection schemes used on some software (particularly games) did not work on the MSD drive. These copy protection systems usually involved bad tracks and/or sectors purposely being written on the disk. The software would check for the appropriate error code when it read these tracks/sectors. The MSD would not always return the same error code the sofware was expecting, causing the software to assume it was being loaded from a copied disk. I paid $1,000.00 CDN for mine in 1984! Sounds brutally expensive, but at the time, 1541 drives were famous for blowing their power supplies. The MSD is fairly bulletproof, and never gave me any problems. If you run across any SD-2's in your travels, I would be interested in re-aquiring one. Grant Zozman gzozman@escape.ca From defaultuser at mail.mankato.msus.edu Sun Nov 23 17:22:28 1997 From: defaultuser at mail.mankato.msus.edu (ACC student) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: CGA & clock speeds Message-ID: <3478BAB0.65F0BDAD@mail.mankato.msus.edu> Hello, I hope this mail goes to the right place as I'm not on the list; here goes: I am messing about with an 8088-based clone to see what I can do with it for cheap thrills & a good learning experience. So far, I have installed a V20 chip which decreased processing time by about 7%. I then tried to clock it at 10 MHz (the rating of the chip), but this failed to produce any results (the 'puter did not boot.) I tried at 8MHz, and the computer booted but did not give a display. I could tell it was working by entering DOS commands. I tried then at 5.33 MHz. It booted & ran OK (as far as I could tell), but the display was all messed up. I then did some research and found that the CGA card depends on the 14.31818 oscilator to run properly. Since the processor seemed to be running OK at 8 MHz, what I want to do is find a way to send a proper clock signal to the CGA card while clocking the main board at 8MHz. Or will changing to a different monitor (like VGA) make the clock speed irrelevant? Is CGA the only clock-dependant display type? Thanks in advance, Dave From defaultuser at mail.mankato.msus.edu Sun Nov 23 17:23:43 1997 From: defaultuser at mail.mankato.msus.edu (ACC student) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: CGA, part II Message-ID: <3478BAFB.297CC3D1@mail.mankato.msus.edu> Ooops - forgot an address: polaris@vax1.mankato.msus.edu Thanks again, Dave From zmerch at northernway.net Sat Nov 22 19:48:45 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Rubbery Bits Gone Gooey In-Reply-To: <199711231914.AA14014@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971122194845.009dcd00@mail.northernway.net> ;-) Allison J Parent head-scratched, yawned, then typed: >The solution I've used to date is to first strip the goo off the alumninum >ferrule that is on the drive. Then I found a peice of tygon(vinal) clear >tubing that had the required ID for a tight fit. I cut a ring the width of >the original(cut squarely and clean) and proceded to glue it on using >superglue (cyanoacrylic). then I run it up on a spare motor and grind it >using a emery board. The last step it insure roundness. I've done this >for 6 tu58 drives and it seems to work fine. It's noisier as it's harder >but seems to have enough friction to drive the tape well. Here's an idea... [[please note: this is *just* an idea. I don't know the part in question, I don't know if this will work, I don't know if.... Obviously, YMMV... but it's an idea. :-) ]] instead of the vinyl, would a small section of heat-shrink tubing work? Nip it a little longer than the thickness of said ferrule, then hit it with some heat. You could sand off the top and bottom if necessary (for balance?), but if my thoughts aren't way off base, you wouldn't need to glue it to keep it in place... This should also solve the roundness adjustment, wouldn't it? (as in -- it should stay in round without problems...) Again, just a thought. Hope this helps, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Nov 23 17:38:25 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Update on finds Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971123233825.00681fb8@pop3.concentric.net> They have 8085A chips with '76 dates on them. Thanks for the info and now to try and test them. At 09:21 AM 11/23/97 -0800, you wrote: >> I also found in the >> same box 12 Intel boards dated copyright 1976 with white keys, a red lED >> readout, a boxed area marked Bus Expansion Drivers filled with various >> chips, TTY interface boxed area, PROM area, Address Decoder area, and all >> kinds of things on these boards. Does anyone know what thses units are ? > >These sound like Intel SDK-85 evaluation kits. Do they, indeed, have >8085's on them? There was also an earlier 8080A version. Both were >bought by the truckloads by tech schools, universities, and colleges >for computer courses and data acquisition work. What are the date >codes on the chips? > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 23 19:01:02 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Rubbery Bits Gone Gooey Message-ID: <199711240101.AA27979@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711240126.RAA19369@daemonweed.reanimators.org> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > this is also common to DEC TU58 tape system (also a dc100 cart). Yep, I forgot about those. Sorry about that. > The solution I've used to date is to first strip the goo off the alumninum > ferrule that is on the drive. Then I found a peice of tygon(vinal) clear > tubing that had the required ID for a tight fit. I cut a ring the width of > the original(cut squarely and clean) and proceded to glue it on using > superglue (cyanoacrylic). then I run it up on a spare motor and grind it > using a emery board. The last step it insure roundness. I've done this > for 6 tu58 drives and it seems to work fine. It's noisier as it's harder > but seems to have enough friction to drive the tape well. I have told my friend not to toss the drives so I think one or the other of us will have some to play with now. Thanks for the tips; it's, well, reassuring that someone has already figured something out. The only thing I'm worried about w/r/t hardness is whether that will create additional wear or reduced traction with the belt capstan. > The material is not the best possible choice (polyurethane might be better) > but I had it handy and it's easy to find. Between uses I pull the tape to > avoid dents that seem to cause no problems other then making the drive > very noisy. It's been in use for about a year, so the tygon hardening > from age was a concern. However it works and it's easy enough to do again > if needed. Pulling the tape is sound anyway, at least in the bigger QIC drives that I've dealt with, leaving the tape in sometimes results in the tape getting dents from having the head pushed into it for so long. Today I ran into Paul Coad and he mentioned seeing similar stuff happening to QIC drives, and I think I've seen it too on some HP 9144s. This could be extra nasty on 9144s: they use tapes that look like QIC but have some subtle differences, like being preformatted with block markers written with a special full-width head and I suspect (from experience with a drive that was trashing tapes) that you can scribble over the block markers if the tape speed isn't right. Of course, once you do that the tape is mechanically OK but the drive will not let you load it. -Frank McConnell From Zeus334 at aol.com Sun Nov 23 19:28:46 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: DECMate III Message-ID: <971123202846_221637515@mrin51.mail.aol.com> A relative of mine has a DecMate III. It comes with a cheap word processor. I have used it, and have found it very difficult, worse than vi or something. Could someone tell me if there is any use for it? It has no hard drive... From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu Sun Nov 23 21:06:24 1997 From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: NEC Starlet probs In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971123115107.44f7894a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > I have to say I love my new Starlet (PC-8401-A, CP/M laptop) but it seems to > have a problem. When turned off, the memory gets all scrambled. The longer You might want to try checking the internal NiCd backup battery. It's been a while since I've had my Starlet apart, but I do seem to remember replacing some shorted nicads to get it working. The Starlet is a nice little machine. Although it is CP/M based, it still bears some resemblance to the 8201 / M100 portables. Does anyone know if this is an NEC-designed machine, or if it is another Kyocera design that was sold by NEC (and maybe others)? -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Nov 23 21:32:50 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Rubbery Bits Gone Gooey Message-ID: <199711240332.AA25097@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I presume over the gummy roller. The problem is the ferrule for the tu58 > is 0.435 od, the roller is 0.625 od. The gummey material does not hold > shape in the advanced cases of rot. The tygon tubing has a 0.385 ID and > when stretched over the ferrule has a od of 0.610 after grinding. This is > adaquate as the tape speed is servo controlled via read back data. Rather similar to the scheme that I used to read an IPL tape on a Televideo TS-816. In that case it involved using a 1/4" ID rubber grommet which was cemented to the capstan shaft after 'grinding' it down to approximately the correct OD. Worked like a champ! Fact is, I still have a spare that I never needed. - don > Having worked with machines used to produce pharmaceuticals I have a > better than average appreciation for various elastic materials. There > are many of them to choose from and the urethanes or neopyene are a good > choices but Tygon(aka Vinyl) thick wall tubing is a easy one to obtain and > use and proven satisfactory. The later ease of availability and use are > key in the selection. > > Allison > > > Allison > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sun Nov 23 20:33:50 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: CGA & clock speeds In-Reply-To: <199711240101.AA28059@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199711240728.CAA10380@mail.cgocable.net> > > Simple make sure you supply 14.31818 to the ISA bus from a seperate > oscillator (or put it on the CGA card and bypass the buss connection). > The problem is that much of the machine is timed off that clock. it is > generated either using then 8284A clock generator or or a TTL oscillator > can. The 8088 is driven off the 8284A (it supplies the correct 33% duty > cycle closk) so it could be done as two seperate sources. There were > "upgrades" that did exactly that yo yeild turbo systems. > > Allison Before I go in about my saying after this, also for same reason, lot of CGA/EGA/MDA/HGC clones (quality and craps likewise) has this 14.31818mhz cystral or oscillator among other different frequencies. Now we're back to using one 14.31818mhz source to generate different freqs and use that 14.31818mhz clocking to drive a PLL chip producing these clocks selectable by jumpers: 20, 25, 33, 40, 50mhz frequencies for the x86's and P5's, PPro and P5II's. :) One who is very knowledgeable knocked me out saying this is not correct...I did not believe him and let this matter drop peacefully. Video cards currently does that same too some use one 14.31818, 20mhz or 40mhz on board driving the PLL chip to get different clocking by user programmable. That last one, you can do that too easily with right s/w like linux, BSD, etc which makes this very useful to drive these fixed frequency monitors. Now to my comment and a Q: Great! I was not quite sure how that was done by what you have wrote, "...so it could be done as two seperate sources. These were "upgrades that did exactly that yo yeild turbo systems..." What!? I get the feeling something have left out how they make that work without screwing up that important 14.31818mhz but I would prefer to try to speed up the sustem bus as well if I could. I have few 8mhz and 10mhz 8088 CPU's and rather like to experiment with that OLD XT motherboard. That would be amusing to show the IBM XT to someone and hear them exlaim it's not XT, it's not a XT, and confidently telling me this was fitted with a trash clone mobo! And open that box and look... Gasp...great secret XT motherboard! :) A big hint, have anyone tried that on XT or PC to disable parity by removing that 74LS280 parity/comparer generator chip? That is what exactly that is done on generic XT mobos. On same issue, I was puzzled on a old 1piece Zenith LP 286 mobo, it has more than 2 LS280 chips on it. What gives!? Maybe that is needed for 16bits but this is hard to believe as that works best if using 1 16bit parity generator/compare chip. Troll From ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk Mon Nov 24 04:14:55 1997 From: ard at odin.phy.bris.ac.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: CGA & clock speeds In-Reply-To: <3478BAB0.65F0BDAD@mail.mankato.msus.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, ACC student wrote: > could tell), but the display was all messed up. I then did some > research > and found that the CGA card depends on the 14.31818 oscilator to run > properly. > Since the processor seemed to be running OK at 8 MHz, what I want to do > is > find a way to send a proper clock signal to the CGA card while clocking > the The 14.318 MHz signal is sent to the CGA card via pin B30 on the expansion slot (1 pin from the front on the left hand side). This signal comes from the master clock crystal on a PC or XT, but on an AT there's a separate 14.318MHz Xtal and 8284 clock chip just for that clock (OK, and the real-time-clock heartbeat to the 8253 / 8254). IBM state that there is no fixed phase relationship between this signal (Osc) and any other clock signal on the expansion connector. In fact, if you have a 5161 expansion box, the Osc signal is not fed down the cable - there's a second 14.318MHz Xtal in the expansion box just to drive the B30 pins of the slots in there. (Yes, I know the CGA card doesn't work in the expansion box...) So, if you want to modify your CGA card, all you have to do is cut the trace going to pin B30 and feed a 14.318MHz TTL level clock signal in there. The real time clock will run fast, but do you care about that? The other thing to do would be to pull the 8284 clock chip from the motherboard, and feed the appropriate signals to the PCLK (Processor Clock), CLK (bus clock, was 4.77MHz, should now be the same as PCLK?, or maybe left at 4.77MHz), and Osc (14.318Mhz). You'll need a pair of 8284s to ensure that things like 'ready' are synced to the appropriate clock edge (look at the Intel datasheet on the 8284 for details). > main board at 8MHz. Or will changing to a different monitor (like VGA) > make the clock speed irrelevant? Is CGA the only clock-dependant > display AFAIK the MDA and EGA board have their own clock generators, and don't depend on Osc. Can't comment on VGA as I've never seen a schematic (I don't think I even own a VGA card), but if there's no trace to pin B30, then it should work fine. > type? > > > Thanks in advance, > > Dave > > -tony From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon Nov 24 05:14:15 1997 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.19971123114537.0068a8f8@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971124061415.006895d0@mail.wincom.net> At 05:13 PM 11/23/97 +0000, you wrote: > > >On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: Thanks, Tony, I will give it a try. Charlie > >> >> On a TRS-80 Model I, no expansion unit, I am getting the left half of the >> screen filled with graphics and the right half with scrambled text. Does >> anyone have a suggestion of where I should start looking for the solution >> to this problem? > >Well, it's been 5 years since I read the Model 1 technical reference >manual, but I can still remember some bits of it (I hope).. > >Start by opening the case, laying the 2 boards out component-side up, and >connecting power and video. If you want step-by-step instructions on how >to do that, please ask. Turn on the machine. Is it fixed? If so, suspect a >solder-ball short (these were quite common one some batches, I believe) or >a problem in the keyboard cable, which carries the Z80 bus. In fact, >checking that keyboard cable for continuity (with the machine off, of >course) wouldn't be a bad idea. > >OK, still not fixed? Check the PSU. The 0V line is the -ve side of the >largest capacitor on the board, and all the supply rails go to the DRAM >chips (-5V on pin 1, +12V on pin 8, +5v on pin 9). > >Now switch off and pull the shunt block (it looks like an IC, but has >metal shorting bars on it only). That disables all the DRAMs. Turn on >again. On a Level1 machine (and I believe a level 2 machine, but my manual >isn't that clear) you'll get a 32*16 display of colons. If that occurs, >then you've probably got RAM or RAM addressing problems. > >Switch off again, and pull the ROMs (or on a level 2 machine, pull the 24 >pin ribbon cable from the ROM socket). Turn on again. The Z80 data bus is >pulled high, so the machine executes continual RST38 instructions and >fills all of the memory with 39 00 (the return address, of course). The >display will fill with alternate '@' and '9' symbols, in 64*16 mode. If >that works, then you have ROM trouble, I think. > >If you still don't get the right display, reseat the Z80, and then use a >scope/logic probe/LogicDart to find out (a) what the Z80 is doing, (b) >what the buses are doing and (c) what the video controller is doing. > > >> >> Thanks >> Charlie Fox >> >> > >-tony > > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Nov 24 10:00:23 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: IBM s/36 Message-ID: <9710248804.AA880416089@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > I=B4m afraid this computer is off-topic (dated 1988). Sorry.=20 Never mind. There were system/36 machines around in 1985 and even earlier... > An IBM 5363-I has recently been given to me, but I don=B4t know anything > at all about its internal architecture or capabilities. I only own the > Central Unit; no cables, no floppies, no tapes, no manuals, no > terminals. I don't know the system/36 awfully well - I worked more on system/34s - how big is this physically? The 5362 was desk-side, the 5364 desktop (the same box as the PC/AT), but I don't know the 5363 (probably after my time if it's 1988). > * It has two 15-pin sub-d connectors in one expansion card. They seem to > be for attaching two serial terminals (syncronous? type 5250?) Dunno. Probably not 5250 - these hang in chains (pun intended) off the twinax ports. > * In another expansion board it has a 9-pin sub-d connector. > * There are too four twin-axial connectors. Four? Quite a sizeable system, then. > Can anybody help me on this subject? > > Thanks in advance. Just my tuppence worth! I'd guess you've got a fairly powerful (by 1980s standards) machine. Philip. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Nov 24 10:27:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: CGA & clock speeds In-Reply-To: <199711240728.CAA10380@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgo.wave.ca" at Nov 24, 97 02:33:50 am Message-ID: <9711241627.AA02376@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 627 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971124/f06d7f1d/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 24 10:31:14 1997 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Intro msg: Teraks, emulators, reviving cassette data Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971124103114.00b2edc0@pc> Why, I thought I'd get a few replies about my Terak computer collection, as described in my intro message on 11/18. Anyone out there have any experience with these? - John www.threedee.com/jcm From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Nov 24 09:07:27 1997 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... In-Reply-To: <3477747E.14271F2F@cnct.com> Message-ID: <842BAF707E78@ifrsys.com> Ward Griffiths Wrote: > > Another fun project would be that nowawadays with modern materials and > computer controlled machining, it is now possible to make parts to the > tolerances necessary to build a functional Analytical Engine. Anybody > know where I can get a good copy of Babbage's designs? > -- > Ward Griffiths > "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails > of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] > It's been done. I read an article in the Scientific American a few years back, where some guys from the British Museum, I think, built the Analytical Engine according to Babbages design. They corrected a couple of minor design flaws (some speculate that Babbage put them there on purpose to discourage Industrial Espionage), and fabricated the whole thing from several tons of Iron, brass, and bronze parts. They didn't have funding to build the whole machine (the printer alone is an engineering marvel), but the machine worked! They succeeded where Babbage had failed. If you arer REALLY interested, I'll try to dredge up the article for you. Jeff Kaneko From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Nov 24 10:49:48 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... Message-ID: <9710248804.AA880419147@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > Another fun project would be that nowawadays with modern materials and > > computer controlled machining, it is now possible to make parts to the > > tolerances necessary to build a functional Analytical Engine. Anybody > > know where I can get a good copy of Babbage's designs? > It's been done. I read an article in the Scientific American a few > years back, where some guys from the British Museum, I think, built > the Analytical Engine according to Babbages design. > > They corrected a couple of minor design flaws (some speculate that > Babbage put them there on purpose to discourage Industrial > Espionage), and fabricated the whole thing from several tons of > Iron, brass, and bronze parts. > > They didn't have funding to build the whole machine (the printer > alone is an engineering marvel), but the machine worked! They > succeeded where Babbage had failed. What I saw demonstrated at the Science Museum (part of the British Museum) 5 years ago was a working _difference_ engine. This had a couple of design bugs fixed (one in the ripple carry mechanism IIRC) and no printer. I don't recall anything about an analytical engine being built at this time. Has it been done since? Do tell! Philip. From Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Nov 24 11:21:13 1997 From: Jeff.Kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... In-Reply-To: <9710248804.AA880419147@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <84A6303C552E@ifrsys.com> > What I saw demonstrated at the Science Museum (part of the British > Museum) 5 years ago was a working _difference_ engine. This had a > couple of design bugs fixed (one in the ripple carry mechanism IIRC) and > no printer. Yep. There's Egg on my face. As punishment, I shall wear a bronze cogwheel from my neck that says: "I can't tell the _difference_ between an analyitcal engine and a dead crab." =B:-0 > I don't recall anything about an analytical engine being built at this > time. Has it been done since? Do tell! See above. Jeff From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon Nov 24 15:33:11 1997 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 ??? Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971124163311.00687de0@mail.wincom.net> I have just had an IBM 5100 "Portable" computer (circa 1976) donated, along with a 5103 printer and a 5106 tape drive. No documentation or software, so could anyone tell me what I have, what operating system it used, and what kind of tapes? Thanks Charlie Fox From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Nov 24 15:55:34 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: [PDP-11/44]: OK, this has become an emergency situation! Message-ID: Here's the deal: Our landlord (at work) showed up. He was not happy with the '44, at all. It is currently in an unused room. (I have no other place to put it!) It looks quite ugly, as it's not working and all over the place. I cleaned up the best I can, but it's not enough. Since nor my business nor me can afford the spare room, I have been given orders to make it look nice. I have 3 days. After which, if the room does not meet his standards, he'll take the computer and feed it to the scrap man. I can't afford the room, I'm broke. And I can't move it anywhere else. Basically, I have 3 days to get everything back in the racks. And working if possible. Or else, whatever I can't fit in my car is property of the building owner, and then the scrap metal man. If I can make it run, I can put it in the main office (maybe). The uPDPs and such have to find another place to stay... One'll end up at my house, and the others probably in storage. I have things almost ready. The 2 BA11s power on, but there appears to be no bus continuity. The arragement has the CPU and RAM in the master BA11, and the UDA50 in the other. No DZs or anyhting yet. The lights on the UDA stobe normally, but it refuses to boot. It is in an NPG slot (I looked, the CA1 wire is cut), like it was originally. Just those MASSBUS backplanes are gone. I have NPGs in every available slot. There is one terminator, at the end of the bus. WHat am I doing wrong? From groberts at mitre.org Mon Nov 24 17:17:40 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Intro msg: Teraks, emulators, reviving cassette data In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971124103114.00b2edc0@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971124181740.0075eb68@mail90> At 10:31 AM 11/24/97 -0600, John wrote: >Why, I thought I'd get a few replies about my Terak computer >collection...Anyone out there have any experience with these? very cool machine for its time. now seemingly very collectible (i don't think they sold too many of them). i had one on my desk for a few years in the 1981-82 timeframe. built like a tank. ran UCSD pascal (full source code of course). memory mapped video could be mapped into user program space so that you could do stuff like watch the bits in your various storage locations in real time while your program ran. mine had monochrome video but I seem to recall they had a color model? I think these were quite pricey a the time (like $10K or something?) sadly I mostly just used this as a terminal to connect to our DEC (TOPS-10) minicomputer! (although I did write some simple fortran programs on the RT11 side). I know there's a web site on the Net called "Terak Museum" but it's not responding at the moment... - glenn From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Nov 24 17:40:46 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Intro msg: Teraks, emulators, reviving cassette data In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971124181740.0075eb68@mail90> from "Glenn Roberts" at Nov 24, 97 06:17:40 pm Message-ID: <9711242340.AA05275@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 395 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971124/ce53e850/attachment.ksh From dastar at wco.com Mon Nov 24 18:22:07 1997 From: dastar at wco.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 ??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971124163311.00687de0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > I have just had an IBM 5100 "Portable" computer (circa 1976) donated, > along with a 5103 printer and a 5106 tape drive. No documentation or > software, so could anyone tell me what I have, what operating system it > used, and what kind of tapes? Well, according to all the hype on the 5100 in recent months, you've stumbled on a treasure and you should be stoked beyond imagination. The 5100 was the first portable computer built by IBM, and quite possibly the first ever (I don't think any claim has been made so far to the contrary). Does it boot? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Nov 24 18:27:28 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... Message-ID: <971124192726_-1205880296@mrin41.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-21 06:21:27 EST, HOTZE put forth: > PS- I've been looking for this for months. Does anyone know where I can find > the latest version of Elisa (Or another good AI) on the net? Elsewhere? elisa? that program that asks you the same open ended question? i may have a similar program if there really is an interest. david From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 24 18:45:12 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Intro msg: Teraks, emulators, reviving cassette data Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971125004512.006912a0@pop3.concentric.net> found a small written piece talking about the Terak 8510 with a LSI-11 processor, 20k words of 16 bit memory, 256k floppy drive, came out in January of 1977, cost at the time of over $5000, had RS232 and 20mA current loop serial interfaces. Software was Basic and Fortran. Hope this helps Keep computing - John At 10:31 AM 11/24/97 -0600, you wrote: > >Why, I thought I'd get a few replies about my Terak computer >collection, as described in my intro message on 11/18. >Anyone out there have any experience with these? > >- John >www.threedee.com/jcm > > > From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Nov 24 18:44:28 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: PROGRESS! It booted! Message-ID: I was fiddling and I pulled the NPG from the Unibus ribbon cable and the machine will boot now! But when I try starting RSTS timesharing (START command to the bootloader [Is that INIT?]) it lists devices it disables and hangs there. I can see an LED go high on the 2nd UDA board (The one that doesn't connect to the drives), stay high for a second, then go lo, strobe, and repeat. The READY lamp on the RA81 has died, so I can't really tell what's happening... I'll go RTFM tonight, but if anyone knows for sure what's happening, it'd be nice to know! From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Mon Nov 24 21:24:03 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Intro msg: Teraks, emulators, reviving cassette data In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971124181740.0075eb68@mail90> References: <3.0.1.32.19971124103114.00b2edc0@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971125142403.009a29a0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 06:17 PM 11/24/97 -0500, Glenn Roberts wrote: >sadly I mostly just used this as a terminal to connect to our DEC (TOPS-10) >minicomputer! (although I did write some simple fortran programs on the >RT11 side). Although a DECsystem10 was around only 1MIPS I doubt anyone who'd seen one (or even better used one) would call it a minicomputer! As far as I'm concerned our DEC-10 was a mainframe (probably the only system worthy of that description that was ever housed at La Trobe University even though our smallest Unix server here now could probably emulate the -10 better than the original hardware ever could). A Terak in the collection would be nice, but a Pascal MicroEngine would be better! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Nov 24 23:09:52 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Intro msg: Teraks, emulators, reviving cassette data Message-ID: <199711250509.AA21959@world.std.com> Message-ID: <347A7571.BCE@goldrush.com> From: Grant Zozman Subject: Re: Commodore PET finds. >Scott Walde wrote: >> >> I also got 4 'MSD Super Disk Drive' model SD-1. These look similar in >> design to the external TRS-80 drives (except they're cream coloured). >> They have two 6-pin DIN plugs and an IEEE-488(?) plug. Are these what I >> think they are? (Drives that will work on the VIC-20/C-64 and PETs) I >> don't have any 6pin cables to try these on a VIC. I haven't tried them on >> a PET yet, either. Any idea what format these would be? (2040, 8050?) >The MSD drive will definitely work with a C-64. By extension, I belive >this means it will also work with the VIC-20. Not sure about PET >compatibility, though I believe the IEEE-488 interface was provided for >PET's. And they will work on the PET too! Yes, that is an IEEE-488 interface. and I have had mine (an SD-2, pretty cool drive!) hooked to my PET (before I sold it). and it provides you with 1541/4040 compatibility. Though not EXACT, as that would have violated Commodore's copyrights. I have read you can get JiffyDOS for various 3rd party drives and I think the MSD was one of them. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Nov 25 05:23:42 1997 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 ??? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.19971124163311.00687de0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19971125062342.0077455c@mail.wincom.net> At 04:22 PM 11/24/97 -0800, you wrote: >On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > >> I have just had an IBM 5100 "Portable" computer (circa 1976) donated, >> along with a 5103 printer and a 5106 tape drive. No documentation or >> software, so could anyone tell me what I have, what operating system it >> used, and what kind of tapes? > >Well, according to all the hype on the 5100 in recent months, you've >stumbled on a treasure and you should be stoked beyond imagination. > >The 5100 was the first portable computer built by IBM, and quite possibly >the first ever (I don't think any claim has been made so far to the >contrary). > >Does it boot? > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > > Hi, Sam: Yes, it boots! I cleaned it up, it had been in a barn. PORTABLE?? It feels like lifting a 3/4" vcr! I have a cousin whose brother in law is an IBM type, so I will have to open diplomatic negotiations to try to get some info. Cheers Charlie Fox From engine at chac.org Tue Nov 25 10:00:43 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 ??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971125062342.0077455c@mail.wincom.net> References: <3.0.2.32.19971124163311.00687de0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971125080043.00f20210@pop.batnet.com> At 06:23 11/25/97 -0500, you wrote: > Yes, it boots! I cleaned it up, it had been in a barn. PORTABLE?? It feels >like lifting a 3/4" vcr! > I have a cousin whose brother in law is an IBM type, so I will have to >open diplomatic negotiations to try to get some info. If you think a 5100 ISN'T portable, you should try adding the dual 8" floppy drive, which is almost the size of a rollaround dishwasher -- it literally has casters. The 5100 was really quite the computer -- it cost $10,000 new for the base unit. It speaks BASIC or APL in ROM and you could have it with one or the other or, for quite a bit extra, both. __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Nov 25 06:16:40 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:44 2005 Subject: Rubbery Bits Gone Gooey In-Reply-To: <199711231835.KAA06876@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <199711251722.MAA01762@smtp.interlog.com> On 23 Nov 97 at 10:35, Frank McConnell wrote: > Lately a friend has been trying to copy a tape for an HP 2645 > terminal. > > Thus far he has discovered a problem with tape drives in two > terminals. His description of the problem is that, when used, the > motor capstan in the tape drive "melts". In one case he has not > been able to get all the ex-capstan goo off of the belt capstan > in the cartridge; fortunately that was a blank tape. > > My first thought was, hmm, this sounds like the problem the calculator > folks have with the rubbery wheels that go gooey. > > I have one of these terminals too, but it's a bit buried in storage > and I haven't got it out yet. (In fact, the tape contains games and > he is trying to copy it because I expressed interest...of course, now > I am thinking that when I dig the terminal out I need to open it up > and check the capstans before I go and jam a tape in.) Instead I > found the May 1976 issue of the HP Journal, which was smaller, > lighter, closer to the front, and does a pretty good job of > demonstrating how proud HP was of having fit tape drives to HP > 264x terminals. > > What have I found out? The motor capstan has an aluminum core with an > elastomer coating that is ground to the right size during > manufacture. Said elastomer was chosen for quick recovery from the > dent that forms in it when the loaded tape isn't moving (as the > capstan is held against the tape cartridge's belt capstan). > > So now I guess I have two questions. One is just what do the > calculator folks do about rubbery wheels gone gooey? And the other > is, can I do something like that for these drives? Given that the > object of this capstan is to press against and drive something less > flexible than a magnetic card (the belt capstan in a DC100 tape > cartridge) I'm not sure the same sort of material would work. > > And an observation: the HP 9815A desktop calculator I have sitting here > seems to use a similar drive (at least the capstan looks similar when I > peer in the slot), and I think the HP 85 does too. > > -Frank McConnell > You could try the mechanical calculator mailing list. There's a lot of extremely knowledgeable former repair people and collectors who restore old calculators on it. I don't have the address handy but it should be easily found as many also have web pages. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Nov 25 11:55:50 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: RD51 format parameters? In-Reply-To: <347A887C.31C46FE2@swindon.ericsson.se> Message-ID: I should probably know this by now, or be able to figure it out, but its been one of those weeks to far, with no signs of improvement... I need to format up an ST-212 drive as an RD51 (don't ask, I just need to) and can not for the life of me remember (or find my notes) the parameters to feed the formatter on my VS2000 to format this thing. Anyone have these parameters at hand? (Ok... I'm trying to load Micro-RSTS on one of my machines, and the distribution disk set installer demands an RD51 as the system drive) Thanks! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 25 12:08:17 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: RD51 format parameters? In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Nov 25, 97 09:55:50 am Message-ID: <9711251808.AA32423@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3246 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971125/2c215642/attachment.ksh From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Tue Nov 25 13:29:15 1997 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (kyrrin2@wizards.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: FW: Someone help this fellow? Message-ID: <347b24bd.97980638@mail.boeing.com> Can anyone help this fellow out? I've never even heard of a "DEC 1" (unless he means a MicroVAX 1?) Forwarded message follows. Please respond directly to the author. Thanks! -=-=- -=-=- Xref: xyzzy comp.sys.dec:18347 Path: xyzzy!uunet!not-for-mail From: mrogers@capecod.net (mr) Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: DEC 1 computer (circ. 1982) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:21:08 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: <347a81fe.29676018@newshost.capecod.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ost55.capecod.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Anyone out there ever see one of these beasties? A freind of mine has ask me to resusitate his beloved dinosuar, so here it goes. The problem is a disk errors when he tries to boot. I presume (as I have yet to inspect the machine myself) the trouble to be with either the boot disk drive (8" Shugart floppy drive) or the system disk. The problem could be as simple as a dirty r/w head or a worn felt pad that presses disk against the r/w head or as bad as a fried system disk. Though as a tech I have worked on several machines of this era, I am at a disadvantage in this case seeing that I have never seen a DEC 1 running properly or at all for that matter. So what I'm looking for is: a) Spare parts or a PM kit for a Shugart 8" floppy drive b) Someone who has spare system or boot disk for a DEC 1 that they might be willing to part with c) someone who has a clue or any usefull insight! Thanx for reading. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Tue Nov 25 13:29:10 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: TRS-80 (Enrico, Bill, and anyone else that cares) In-Reply-To: <347975B3.64DA@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: Enrico: This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. After being out of town for _Thanksgiving_ (I am a full-time college student and am now with family for a short break) I decided I might telnet back in and check my e-mail. Boy, am I glad I did. I wouldn't have wanted to miss you telling me that I was purposely trying to avoid you. You say in the second message from you, "I see that you are playing hard to get AGAIN." Yes, you're right, Enrico, I am scared of you (not really). Anyway, I will respond to both of your e-mails... one dated Nov 24 the other Nov 25. Boy, I certainly shouldn't have missed a day of checking my e-mail.... I'd hate to anger you for not checking the first e-mail from you immediately. In response to the e-mail dated Nov 24: you say you are unhappy with a transaction that took months to progress. You sent me an MSX (from UK), I sent you a TRS-80 Model 1. To tell you the truth, I am very unhappy with the transaction as well. First, it has been a huge pain in the rear-end from the beginning. All I have heard from you is far-fetched reason for bitching... just another damn ploy to stir up a little trouble? Second, a point I have never even said to you before because I figured it might have happened in shipping, etc., is the fact the damn MSX doesn't even work. I'm not going to sue you though Enrico. Next, we have you saying you are unhappy with the transaction because the computer I sent isn't the one we agreed upon. Frankly, that's a big bunch of BS. You say in this letter that I told you and the list I would send one without the numeric keyboard. If I remember correctly you asked if I could send you the first TRS-80, this is true. Then in future discussion I asked you specifically what you wanted. You said you didn't even know what you wanted, just a model 1. I sent you the damn model 1. Enrico, you know something.... I don't even have a TRS-80 Model 1 without the numeric keyboard on the right hand side. Now tell me this, why the hell would I promise to ship one to you if _I_ didn't even have one?? Common sense (which you seem to lack quite a bit of) would tell you that I wouldn't do that. Next you _claim_ the computer is cracked or some damn thing like that. Well, I can promise that when I sent it is was just fine. No cracks, screws floating around nothing. And I can also promise the thing worked just great. You know how? Because I was using it up until the time I shipped it. You sure as hell didn't even send me something that was working. How do _I_ know... because if you knew it was working you would have powered it up and it still hadn't even had a power cable hooked to it. I put the correct voltage through it, I get power, but then it dies. Again, I won't sue you, Enrito. Then you say that I didn't send the power supply and the instructions. Then you say, quote, "(yes I know I told you that I was not interested in the power supply...I did send you the instructions.) Well, you answered your own darn complaint, Enrico. You didn't want the power supply. If you say, as you did, that we were swapping the exact same thing, you didn't send me a seperate power supply. :-) You did send me a xeroxed copy of the instructions, which I appreciate... I grant you that there. But, I honestly did not realise I was supposed to send you any manuals. I certainly can copy some off I guess. Or, you might even be able to check any number of web sites that contain much, much more information that any manual I would send you contains. Next, you talk about the fact that my machine to you was sent months after I said it did. It was, and I notified you the parcel was returned to me, at my expense. I even sent you an e-mail telling yuo about this, and that I even was going to re-use your box and packing as it would not be as quite a fit as what I had previously sent it in. Plus the original boxed was stamped and labeled throughout. I didn't think it'd cause a lawsuit. Then you say for me to just put everything right and it would be forgotten. Well, I don't have anything to put right... especially not at my expense. I will agree to send you POS MSX back to you, if you'll return my Model 1. How's that? LETTER # 2 - Nov. 25 Already replied to your comments about me playign ahrd to get. Then you say I should send you the model 1 with no numeric key-pad. You say they are hard to find in the UK, but worth 2 pennies here. Well, Enrico, I don't have one, so maybe someone else on this list will gladly ship you one of those. I'm sure they'd be happy to pick up where I refuse to continue to go. You say by me doing this, that any $$$ expense I incure will certainly be worth in terms of respectibility. You threaten me by saying that, "I will expose the whole lot in public on the list and in my site, and I will also write to the major Internet zines and news sites." Well guess what, Enrico, I personally don't care. As a matter of fact, I didn't even care enough to let your shitty side of the deal bother me. I guess I'm just not a hot-headed trouble maker looking for problems. Then you say, if necessary, you will ask a judge to put this right. Go for it, buddy. I didn't do anything wrong. If anyone did anything wrong, it was you. You didn;t even have a clue as to TRS-80s or what you wanted, and that seems to be the only thing I could have (if I even had one!) made different.... you would have had complete info. on what you wanted. Enrico, I can't even express how much this whole deal is a giant crock of $%!^. It is completely unrational statements by you that make this out to be something is not. I in no way intended to make this difficult, or trick you into sending you the 'wrong' machine or anything else. I know you didn't intend that either. But, should I just run around saying you had everything to do with the problems, etc., etc.? No. I don't beleive it was anyone else fault by _our own_. That's right, I don't think it was mine, and I don't think it was yours. What comes out of this will be two little kids fighting back and forth. Frankly, I have better things to do with my time. If you don't have better things to do, well, go ahead and slander my name wherever you want to. I don't care. No one has every had any problems with me, nor have I had with them. I sit back, read the newsgroups and listservs I get, trying to add to my collection and learn. I've already learned enough from doing this that I don't want to be part of these squables that go on for months at a time. So, I say, pay our own expenses, trade back, and it'll be over. Then you can find someone else who will ship you a Model 1 with _no_ numeric keyboard and I won't have to bother with you. When I first got into contact with you about a deal like this, it was just after a huge debate between you and others. "others" were saying it was hard to do these transactions over-seas. You responded on a whole thread of messages that those people that thought it was hard to do, were nuts, and made it into some type of international war. You know what, just because of that thread, I thought I would try transcting with you just to prove all my fellow Americans wrong. I had never done it before over-seas, and thought it would be a good learning experience. I guess I wasn't able to prove my fellow Americans wrong, but I did prove it to you. And I certainly proved it to myself. Love Always, Enrico. CORD G. COSLOR P.S. has anyone else out there ever thought I was 'playing hard to get?' Didn't think so. Oh, for all you judges, internet zines, newsgroups, listservs, web sites, executioners, and anyone else that's going to hate me because of this: please, please understand I am innocent. I don't want you all to hate me, and Mr. Judge, please don't make me pay the $18 to reimburse Enrico for silly reasons.. Please, please, please.... (the above is very synical, and like I said-- it's all set right if we just swap back. SOund simple enough? Didn't think so, Enrico... we need to make it _much_ more difficult.) :-) :-) <-- those are smiley faces. Ever smile? If not, Enrico, think about it all this logically.... trust me, it will make you smile. //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Nov 25 14:19:18 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: FW: Someone help this fellow? Message-ID: <199711252019.AA20197@world.std.com> Has anyone ever built a Braille writer out of a punched tape machine? It seems to me that slight mods (i.e. embossing, not punching) would be needed. I have a blind (she doesn't like to be called "visually challenged") friend who asked me about OCR-to-Braille conversion, and I thought I'd ask you all... ps Speaking of political correctness, how do you take _your_ coffee? I like mine Hispanic (rather than Caucasian or African-American) in color, and bitterly challenged... From manney at nwohio.com Mon Nov 24 08:26:04 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Case designs (was: New Definiton REQUIRED) Message-ID: <01bcf8e4$e5871b40$LocalHost@desktop> >Some people (esp. on this list) may not realize it, but there are actually >hordes of people out there who go their entire lives without ever owning a >single screwdriver. Which is why I've got two in/on my laptop case, several >in my laptop "kit", and a swiss army knife with a flat sd, phillips sd, >pliers, and (8^) corkscrew. I treated myself to a Leatherman folding tool 6 months ago. It's got a very well-made #1/#2 combination phillips, plus a very nice pliers & other stuff, even a tiny screwdriver (screweler's jewdriver, as my spoonerist father would have said). $40 at Wal-Mart, and the best tool purchase I've _ever_ made. It hangs on my belt all the time -- even take it to church. I'm always ready to fix. Buy one. manney@nwohio.com Murphy was an optimist! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 25 16:08:02 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Now it's a RSTS problem. Message-ID: Now INIT says the CSR for the booted device (The UDA50? That's what it's booted from...) is non-standard, and RU0: (WHatever that is) is not interrupting and is disabled. RU0: is not in my manual. Neither is anything about the UDA50. So, I'm stuck again! Anyway, I'm gonna go try fitting this into the racks... Anyone got any ideas before I go try figuring it out on my own? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 25 16:32:33 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Now it's a RSTS problem. In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 25, 97 04:08:02 pm Message-ID: <9711252232.AA25416@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 829 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971125/71a34024/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 25 16:51:13 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Now it's a RSTS problem. In-Reply-To: <9711252232.AA25416@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > RU0 is the RSTS/E name for your disk hanging off the UDA50. Uh oh... > What is > the CSR of your UDA50? I don't know. It was last set at 772150. > 172150 is the standard CSR and undoubtedly what > RSTS/E is expecting. You ought to be able to examine location 172150 > from console ODT when you get the UDA50 set for the right CSR. Where's it set at? That's what I was asking. > After you get the CSR set correctly, you might have a problem > with backplane continuity if it still complains about interrupts. That's more likely. It's acting real funny, and last time it booted it never said a word about UDA at wierd CSR. Maybe pulling the NPG corrected one problem and made another? > RSTS/E is notoriously picky about hardware configurations, and > problems like you describe can be caused by other hardware that > is confusing INIT. What > else is in your system besides CPU, memory, and the UDA50? Nothing! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 25 17:14:47 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Now it's a RSTS problem. In-Reply-To: <9711252232.AA25416@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: I played with those NPGs again. Now it booted no errors. I told it INSTALL SYSGEN, set the RTS to RT11, and START. It went soandso devices disabled ?Can't find file or account . And gave me an RT-11 prompt! I can SYSGEN from here. Let's see what happens! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Nov 25 18:35:42 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: IT's ALIVE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The 44 started. It runs BAS2F for an RTS, not RT11. Timesharing and all. Now, to rack it! From rcini at email.msn.com Tue Nov 25 19:48:40 1997 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: MITS/Pertec/Sperry?? Message-ID: <0779a2956011ab7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Found the following on alt.folklore.computers: >>Pertec got bought by Sperry in the early '80s. So you'd probably >>want to check with Unisys (if anyone can still find the stuff >>after all those moves). Can anyone verify this? Maybe we should contact Unisys? Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From bcw at u.washington.edu Tue Nov 25 20:09:38 1997 From: bcw at u.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: TRS-80 (Enrico, Bill, and anyone else that cares) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK guys. 1st - please move this topic back off the list as I'm sure no one wants to become embroiled in it. 2nd - I have not been quick to respond to this because my work has been taking up to 80 hours per week for the last several months (75% of my department has quit or been layed-off). I have not been involving myself with the list because of this. I will continue to help, but you're just going to have to deal with my schedule. 3rd - While I will continue to help where I can, I am not a lawyer and have no more authority than my ability to remove people from this list. I don't know what I can do to help other than nag. I'd say it's obvious at this point that the package is not going to show up. After talking to both of you, I am relatively sure that there has been no malicious intent. You need to decide at this point to remedy this situation either by making good on the trade and eating the cost, giving up and deciding that it was just a bad deal, or seeking legal action. I would advise an amicable solution but if you wish to continue to but heads I can't stop you. Let me propose that I could probably find the same equipment you traded in a relatively short amount of time. If you wish, between the two of you, to cover the costs of shipping I will attempt to locate and ship to Enrico. Please keep this topic off the list. Contact me via private e-mail if you wish future discussion. Thanks guys. I sympathize with you both, but lets keep this as reasonable as possible. -------------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson bcw@u.washington.edu Network Administrator (425) 352-5209 University of Washington - Bothell Help Desk: 2-5275 From photze at batelco.com.bh Tue Nov 25 20:02:52 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... Message-ID: <01bcfa0f$67f69d00$LocalHost@photze> >elisa? that program that asks you the same open ended question? i may have a >similar program if there really is an interest. Yep, that one. It is a BIG interest. It's probably classic content as the older versions go back to Turing's Law. I've found a Java applet that simulates the Turing machine. Thanks, Tim D. Hotze From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Nov 25 20:08:31 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: MITS/Pertec/Sperry?? In-Reply-To: <0779a2956011ab7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> from "Richard A. Cini" at Nov 25, 97 08:48:40 pm Message-ID: <9711260208.AA04757@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 772 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971125/a42c9ac0/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Nov 25 20:20:01 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: MITS/Pertec/Sperry?? In-Reply-To: <0779a2956011ab7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971125182001.03c149d0@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:48 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Richard A. Cini wrote: >Found the following on alt.folklore.computers: > >>>Pertec got bought by Sperry in the early '80s. So you'd probably >>>want to check with Unisys (if anyone can still find the stuff >>>after all those moves). > >Can anyone verify this? Maybe we should contact Unisys? Um.... No. Pertec was acquired by Triumph-Adler (Germany). So far, I've had little success getting any response from them on anything MITS/Pertec related. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Nov 25 20:20:44 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: TRS-80 (Enrico, Bill, and anyone else that cares) Message-ID: <971125212044_-803113010@mrin39> In a message dated 97-11-25 21:12:49 EST, Cord Coslor put forth: > This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard: Cord <- vs -> Enrico argument deleted: I thought this was friendly discussion of old computer collecting, not alt.flame! put it in private, this is more off topic than complaining about the 10 year rule. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Nov 25 21:19:41 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Finds today Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971126031941.006bb4e0@pop3.concentric.net> Well the last few days have slow again Holidays I guess. Picked up a Alpha Micro model AM1051-12 AM-410 SN 2517. It's a heavy unit and I have not powered it up yet. Anyone have any info on it. A TRS-80 RS232 Interface selector not tested. A AST-2000 Subsystem model MAC-200, anyone know what this unit is ? Four Mac IIci cases for parts only the guy let me have them for free. A Ultimate model 25 by ADDS with one aux port and EIA current loop port. That's it so far for the week. As far as prices no unit cost over $6. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed Nov 26 03:28:13 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: C= PC Clone? Message-ID: <347BEBAD.2F5A@oboe.calpoly.edu> I never knew Commodore made PC clones. There's one at the Goodwill. And a couple Aquarius keyboards. Never seen one of those either although I've heard about them plenty of times. GM From adam at merlin.net.au Thu Nov 27 08:37:11 1997 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: C= PC Clone? Message-ID: >I never knew Commodore made PC clones. There's one at the Goodwill. And >a couple Aquarius keyboards. Never seen one of those either although >I've heard about them plenty of times. I have the PC-10 here, so I knew about this. :) There was also, from memory, the Commodore Colt and PC-30. I also seem to think there was a PC-5, but I can be corrected on this. I imagine there were later models as well. What was interesting for me was spotting a Commodore MS-DOS laptop recently. I thought that the only commodore laptop was the prototype C-64 laptop - I wasn't aware that Commodore made any more, even if it was only a pc clone. UNfortunatly they were asking too much for me, although I would have considered it if I could afford the machine. Adam. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Wed Nov 26 03:46:17 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: C= PC Clone? In-Reply-To: <347BEBAD.2F5A@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <199711261442.JAA20627@mail.cgocable.net> > I never knew Commodore made PC clones. There's one at the Goodwill. And > a couple Aquarius keyboards. Never seen one of those either although > I've heard about them plenty of times. > > GM Oh yeah, C= did produce PC 10,II, III all are XT's and PC 20's which is 286, all of them used or shared nonstandard shaped motherboards and cases but pretty solid. After that they outsourced their C= logo on few clone maker boxes. One was generic LPX case with cached 386 33 and don't seen any 486's with C= logos. Last time I heard they are still doing this primarily reselling with clone makers peeces's with that C= on them. Troll From Zeus334 at aol.com Wed Nov 26 12:52:23 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Listserv? Message-ID: <971126135222_-53120625@mrin38> What is the e-mail address of the server for this list? I need to subscribe with a different address. From saltmabr at boat.bt.com Thu Nov 27 05:58:55 1997 From: saltmabr at boat.bt.com (Barry Saltmarsh) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Intel MDS etc Message-ID: <347D607F.4B79@boat.bt.com> Hello All, Can anyone help. I currently build my software on Intel Series III and NRM machines, problem is they are getting old and un-reliable. Does anyone know of a simulator which can be used to build ISIS environment software on a PC. I have tried ISIM, but that is limited to Series II (8085) applications. Regards Barry Saltmarsh From gram at cnct.com Thu Nov 27 07:57:36 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Speaking of punched tape... References: <01bcf8e0$3382bca0$LocalHost@desktop> Message-ID: <347D7C50.EB1C84F7@cnct.com> PG Manney wrote: > > Has anyone ever built a Braille writer out of a punched tape machine? It > seems to me that slight mods (i.e. embossing, not punching) would be needed. > > I have a blind (she doesn't like to be called "visually challenged") friend > who asked me about OCR-to-Braille conversion, and I thought I'd ask you > all... > > ps Speaking of political correctness, how do you take _your_ coffee? I like > mine Hispanic (rather than Caucasian or African-American) in color, and > bitterly challenged... As a friend of mine has said in the past, people who need euphemisms are "differently brained". I vaguely recall from many years back some info on converting a dot matrix printer (probably an MX-80) to Braille output. Unfortunately my old magazine archive was a casualty several moves ago. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Thu Nov 27 08:17:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... References: <84A6303C552E@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <347D80F1.9F58D9EB@cnct.com> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > > What I saw demonstrated at the Science Museum (part of the British > > Museum) 5 years ago was a working _difference_ engine. This had a > > couple of design bugs fixed (one in the ripple carry mechanism IIRC) and > > no printer. > > Yep. There's Egg on my face. As punishment, I shall wear a bronze > cogwheel from my neck that says: "I can't tell the _difference_ > between an analyitcal engine and a dead crab." =B:-0 > > > I don't recall anything about an analytical engine being built at this > > time. Has it been done since? Do tell! > > See above. Yes, I'd heard about the Difference Engine that had been built, that's why I'd rather check out the bill of materials for the more ambitious project. If anybody on this list reads science fiction in the spare time left over from rebuilding computers, _The Difference Engine_ by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling is a fairly good read and _In the Country of the Blind_ by Michael J. Flynn is an excellent one. Both of these novels build from the premise "What if Babbage succeeded?" in very different ways. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From manney at nwohio.com Thu Nov 27 12:22:19 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... Message-ID: <199711271824.KAA10934@mx4.u.washington.edu> > If anybody on this list reads science fiction in the spare time left > over from rebuilding computers, _The Difference Engine_ by William > Gibson and Bruce Sterling is a fairly good read and _In the Country of > the Blind_ by Michael J. Flynn is an excellent one. Both of these > novels build from the premise "What if Babbage succeeded?" in very > different ways. I forget who (Murray Leinster?) wrote "A Logic Named Joe", which very closely describes the information explosion of the Internet. From martin at paladio.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 27 12:40:32 1997 From: martin at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... In-Reply-To: <347D80F1.9F58D9EB@cnct.com> Message-ID: >> > What I saw demonstrated at the Science Museum (part of the British >> > Museum) 5 years ago was a working _difference_ engine. This had a >> > couple of design bugs fixed (one in the ripple carry mechanism IIRC) and >> > no printer. The Science Museum has a webpage at www.nmsi.ac.uk It contains the British National Collection of Computing amongst its huge varied amount of other objects. I used to work there about 15 years ago (pre the new Difference Engine) and one of my jobs was to demonstrate Babbage's original D.E. to visitors and it frequently jammed due to a faulty carry sequence, although the rest of the time it worked beautifully and is a truly glorious thing to behold. Oh, and it has never been part of the British Museum (unlike the Natural History Museum) but originated from the post-Great Exhibition plans of 1851 when the Crystal Palace was built. Martin Evans of Strawberry Hill & Central London - Mail me on London's history & topography, architecture, second-hand bookshops, food, pro-audio engineering, museums, collecting and wood-engraving. From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Nov 27 17:33:10 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: New find Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971127233310.0068df78@pop3.concentric.net> Found a Bell&Howell Schools Oscilloscope model 10D-4540 for $15 at Goodwill not tested yet. Found a Aquarius complete in 2 boxes for 29.95, got the computer, data recorder, miniexpander, thermal printer, FileForm cartridge, FinForm cartridge, Tron Deadly Disc and Utopia cartridges, and 16k memory expander. Also got the game controllers. This had all the manuals and cables too. Picked up 3 older laptops, 2 worked and had carrying cases with manuals. Looking forward to the weekend for more finds. From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Nov 27 12:55:03 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: New find In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971127233310.0068df78@pop3.concentric.net> Message-ID: <199711272350.SAA27718@mail.cgocable.net> > Found a Bell&Howell Schools Oscilloscope model 10D-4540 for $15 at Goodwill > not tested yet. Found a Aquarius complete in 2 boxes for 29.95, got the > computer, data recorder, miniexpander, thermal printer, FileForm cartridge, > FinForm cartridge, Tron Deadly Disc and Utopia cartridges, and 16k memory > expander. Also got the game controllers. This had all the manuals and cables > too. Picked up 3 older laptops, 2 worked and had carrying cases with > manuals. Looking forward to the weekend for more finds. What's this one laptop that did not work: brand and what's problem? Troll From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 27 17:56:52 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 ??? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Nov 24, 97 04:22:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1320 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971127/3c0c4293/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Nov 27 19:36:19 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 ??? Message-ID: <199711280136.AA14796@world.std.com> Greetings, I noticed you answered another person`s questions about their PC jr. so I wonder if you could help me. The pins where the monitor plugs in have been broken off. Do you know of where I could get a new piece? Can I just use the A/V jacks to plug into my TV? Also where can I get some software or an IBM basic programming book? I would greatly appriciate any information you could give. Thank-You, Art Brown vice president Old Technologies Inc. From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Thu Nov 27 23:04:00 1997 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Needed: Power Supply Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971127210400.00e4d310@mail.wizards.net> Hi, folks, I've inherited a DEC VAXServer 3100 with a trio of RZ23 disk drives and a TZ30 tape drive. Looks like a fun unit to play with, but the power supply's bad (the LED blinks at about one-second intervals and the thing never boots). Anyone happen to have a spare PS? Failing that, can I yank the boards out of a VS3100 power supply and transplant them to the larger housing? Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Nov 27 18:17:07 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Needed: Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971127210400.00e4d310@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <199711280513.AAA22397@mail.cgocable.net> > Hi, folks, > > I've inherited a DEC VAXServer 3100 with a trio of RZ23 disk drives and a > TZ30 tape drive. Looks like a fun unit to play with, but the power supply's > bad (the LED blinks at about one-second intervals and the thing never boots). > > Anyone happen to have a spare PS? Failing that, can I yank the boards out > of a VS3100 power supply and transplant them to the larger housing? > > Thanks in advance. Bruce, Please ask other to rebuild that PSU this way. This is best and much easier because the electronic components inside those PSU is not that all strange and easily gotten. Capacitors are so cheap. Troll > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) > (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) > http://www.wizards.net/technoid > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own > human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Thu Nov 27 18:34:17 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: IBM PC jr In-Reply-To: <199711280403.UAA29668@mx2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199711280530.AAA24374@mail.cgocable.net> > Greetings, > I noticed you answered another person`s questions about their PC jr. > so I wonder if you could help me. > The pins where the monitor plugs in have been broken off. > Do you know of where I could get a new piece? Can I just use the A/V > jacks to plug into my TV? Also where can I get some software or an > IBM basic programming book? > I would greatly appriciate any information you could give. > Thank-You, > > Art Brown > vice president > Old Technologies Inc. > > If I remember rightly, the PC Jr connector pins are simply pressed in with a 90 deg bend into motherboard PCB but problem is, the connector unit is one piece I think. I will let others suggest any tips... :) Troll From jim at october.u-net.com Fri Nov 28 05:07:52 1997 From: jim at october.u-net.com (James Campbell Andrew) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Differences? In-Reply-To: <33A6DC2F.476C@rain.org> Message-ID: <1d0fd7u.1ud4tk1hu0rn8M@p10.nas2.is3.u-net.net> > In checking through the TRS-80 Model I computers, I noticed two > different catalog numbers, 26-1001 and 26-1006. I also noticed that one > of the 26-001 computer has a sticker saying "Note - This unit has the > lower case modification kit installed (Cat. No. 26-1104.) Since most of > these machines have been previously owned by early computer users, > needless to say most have been modified in one way or another. Anyone > know the differences between the different catalog numbers? Thanks. Looking through the October 1978 copy of Personal Computer World, the 26-1001 was the 4k Model 1 Level 1. The catalogue numbers go as follows, cost includes a B/W monitor and tape deck: 26-1001 - 4K ROM 4K RAM Costs 499.00 UK Pounds 26-1004 - 12K ROM 4K RAM Costs 578.00 UK Pounds 26-1003 - 4K ROM 16K RAM Costs 728.00 UK Pounds 26-1006 - 12K ROM 16K RAM Costs 807.00 UK Pounds Hope this is of some help to you. -- | The application "Jim" has suffered http://www.october.u-net.com | a Total Enthusiasm Failure Collector of 8bit computers | and must exit immediately. WANTED:Sharp MZ-80K (UK) | [[ OK ]] [ CANCEL ] From gram at cnct.com Fri Nov 28 05:45:02 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 ??? References: Message-ID: <347EAEBE.FE9248D3@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Secondly, if we bend 'computer', HP had the HP65 available in early 1974. > That was the first (AFIAK) pocket programmable calculator, and was > certainly advertised as a 'pocket computer'. The earlier HP9100 was also > portable (although it had no handles, it could certainly be picked up and > carried :-)), and was almost a computer A bit earlier. I was drooling over the HP-65 at the Engineer's Bookstore across the street from Georgia Tech starting in September 1973. No way was $795 anywhere close to within reach. Hell, the HP-35 at $295 was out of my reach. Just had to carry on with the old 10" Pickett. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Fri Nov 28 06:01:46 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... References: <199711271824.KAA10934@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <347EB2AA.671AC3EA@cnct.com> PG Manney wrote: > I forget who (Murray Leinster?) wrote "A Logic Named Joe", which very > closely describes the information explosion of the Internet. Astounding Magazine, March 1946, under his real name of Will F. Jenkins. Anthologised several times. I know I've got it around here somewhere, have to track it down and reread it, it's been a few years. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] (The one with the beard) From adam at merlin.net.au Sat Nov 29 08:17:06 1997 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: New Apple finds Message-ID: Hi! I just had one of those wonderful days where I was destined to get a new computer or four. :) Nothing madly unique, I think, but they filled most of a hole in my collection. I followed a lead on a possible Apple or 2, and ended up making a deal where I swapped my extra four IIc's (a job lot with a pile of manuals - I wanted the manuals but already had the computer) for: Apple IIe enhanced Apple IIe Platinum Apple ///+ Apple IIgs Woz Edition and an LCD screen (Apple) for the IIc. My questions are simple - I know about the IIe's, which are common, but what about the LCD screen and the ///+? I had seen neither before in Australia, but this doesn't prove much. Are they moderatly common, uncommon or heaps rare? Although it is good to know why the LCD screen didn't sell - it works great, but you do have to be at a perfect angle, the screen is a very odd angle, and, although legible, it is still quite faint. Oh, and anyone know where I can get some Apple /// software? It came with some, but no Basic or games stuff. Best thing about today was the new contact - he gets in a lot of old apples, and will be happy to pass them on to me because he says that I am genuine, not someone trying to make money by taking them off him for resale. :) This is a good thing - before long I may finally have the entire non-Macintosh Apple line. Finally, someone was asking me about the Amstrad Notepads and their availability on Australia, A couple just came up for sale for half the normal second-hand price (still quite high, but they are still oddly popular) along with 2 Laser PC3s, a Laser PC2 an old Casio and an old NEC notepad/laptop thingy. I will pickup some for myslef, but I could pick up teh Amstrad if he wants one. :) Thanks heaps, Adam. From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Nov 28 07:16:00 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: New find Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971128131600.00685584@pop3.concentric.net> It's a model LT-3200 40 by Paoku P&C LTD. I plug it in and get nothing, no power brick is used, cord plugs into back of unit. There are no sounds, lights, or anything when I try to power on the unit. At 06:55 PM 11/27/97 +0000, you wrote: >> Found a Bell&Howell Schools Oscilloscope model 10D-4540 for $15 at Goodwill >> not tested yet. Found a Aquarius complete in 2 boxes for 29.95, got the >> computer, data recorder, miniexpander, thermal printer, FileForm cartridge, >> FinForm cartridge, Tron Deadly Disc and Utopia cartridges, and 16k memory >> expander. Also got the game controllers. This had all the manuals and cables >> too. Picked up 3 older laptops, 2 worked and had carrying cases with >> manuals. Looking forward to the weekend for more finds. > >What's this one laptop that did not work: brand and what's problem? > >Troll > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Nov 28 07:23:59 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: IBM PC jr Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971128132359.0068c790@pop3.concentric.net> If need one I can get you another PCjr case to use for parts and a the basic manual that came with the jr for cost plus shipping. Cost for PCjr and book about $3. At 11:03 PM 11/27/97 +0000, you wrote: >Greetings, >I noticed you answered another person`s questions about their PC jr. >so I wonder if you could help me. >The pins where the monitor plugs in have been broken off. >Do you know of where I could get a new piece? Can I just use the A/V >jacks to plug into my TV? Also where can I get some software or an >IBM basic programming book? >I would greatly appriciate any information you could give. >Thank-You, > >Art Brown >vice president >Old Technologies Inc. > > > > From manney at nwohio.com Fri Nov 28 08:29:34 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Talk Of Building A Computer... Message-ID: <199711281450.GAA02526@mx3.u.washington.edu> > PG Manney wrote: > > > I forget who (Murray Leinster?) wrote "A Logic Named Joe", which very > > closely describes the information explosion of the Internet. > > Astounding Magazine, March 1946, under his real name of Will F. Jenkins. > Anthologised several times. I know I've got it around here somewhere, > have to track it down and reread it, it's been a few years. > (The one with the beard) Is it a fake beard? : > From TOwad at aol.com Fri Nov 28 10:18:07 1997 From: TOwad at aol.com (TOwad@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: New Apple finds Message-ID: <971128111806_2073057773@mrin85.mail.aol.com> >and an LCD screen (Apple) for the IIc. My questions are simple - I know >about the IIe's, which are common, but what about the LCD screen and the >///+? I had seen neither before in Australia, but this doesn't prove much. >Are they moderatly common, uncommon or heaps rare? Although it is good to >know why the LCD screen didn't sell - it works great, but you do have to be >at a perfect angle, the screen is a very odd angle, and, although legible, >it is still quite faint. Oh, and anyone know where I can get some Apple /// >software? It came with some, but no Basic or games stuff. Both the LCD screen and Apple ///+ are quite rare. I've seen both sell for over $100 in auctions. The LCD screen is the rarer of the two. Not sure where to get software for the ///+. I have an Apple /// as well and not a single floppy for it. The Woz IIgs is one of my favorites, but its still not worth much. Sincerely, Tom Owad From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 28 10:30:12 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Needed: Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971127210400.00e4d310@mail.wizards.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Nov 27, 97 09:04:00 pm Message-ID: <9711281630.AA12777@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1496 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971128/d73c2dd0/attachment.ksh From kyrrin2 at wizards.net Fri Nov 28 11:46:35 1997 From: kyrrin2 at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: PS needed In-Reply-To: <199711280802.AAA17129@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971128094635.00e56ca0@mail.wizards.net> At 00:02 28-11-97 PST, you wrote: >Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:17:07 +0000 >From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca >To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Subject: Re: Needed: Power Supply >Message-ID: <199711280513.AAA22397@mail.cgocable.net> >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >Bruce, Please ask other to rebuild that PSU this way. This is best >and much easier because the electronic components inside those PSU is >not that all strange and easily gotten. Capacitors are so cheap. ??? I'm not 100% sure I understand your syntax, but I think you're suggesting that I repair the existing supply. That's a great suggestion, and I would do it IF I had an adequate schematic diagram. Somehow, I don't think DEC would be willing to part with such anytime soon. Unless someone can suggest what component to look at (I think it's the +12 supply that's popping on and off), I will continue to pursue a replacement for now. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin2@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Nov 28 11:54:17 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: PS needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971128094635.00e56ca0@mail.wizards.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Nov 28, 97 09:46:35 am Message-ID: <9711281754.AA13573@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 948 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971128/ff226fa9/attachment.ksh From henrio at edu.tsai.es Fri Nov 28 06:22:48 1997 From: henrio at edu.tsai.es (Sergio Izquierdo Garcia) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Miniscribe Hard Disk Message-ID: <347EB798.2CE5@edu.tsai.es> Hello all, One of my recent finds is a Nixdorf 8810 (a PC/XT). It has one hard disk drive, and it doesn?t start. It?s a Miniscribe Model 3212. Does anybody know its physical parameters (heads, cylinders, sectors)? Thank you in advance. -- Sergio Izquierdo Garcia mailto:henrio@edu.tsai.es From henrio at edu.tsai.es Fri Nov 28 06:30:35 1997 From: henrio at edu.tsai.es (Sergio Izquierdo Garcia) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Wangtek tape drive Message-ID: <347EB96B.1EAC@edu.tsai.es> Hi all, I've obtained one streamer tape drive, Wangtek Model 5099EN24. I have read that Linux can support it directly. Has anybody out there a driver for *S-DOS or *indows? Any idea on where could I find it? Thank you all. -- Sergio Izquierdo Garcia mailto:henrio@edu.tsai.es From mcneight at umich.edu Fri Nov 28 13:41:22 1997 From: mcneight at umich.edu (Neil McNeight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Miniscribe Hard Disk In-Reply-To: <347EB798.2CE5@edu.tsai.es> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Sergio Izquierdo Garcia wrote: > Hello all, > > One of my recent finds is a Nixdorf 8810 (a PC/XT). It has one hard disk > drive, and it doesn?t start. It?s a Miniscribe Model 3212. > > Does anybody know its physical parameters (heads, cylinders, sectors)? From "Upgrading and Repairing PC's, 2nd Edition": Miniscribe 3212 Capacity: 10.7 Mb Cylinders: 612 Heads: 2 Sectors/track: 17 Write Precomp: 128 Landing Zone: 656 -Neil ---------------------------------------------------+------------------- "There is more to life than increasing its speed." | Neil McNeight -Mahatma Gandhi | mcneight@umich.edu ---------------------------------------------------+------------------- From mcneight at umich.edu Fri Nov 28 13:43:55 1997 From: mcneight at umich.edu (Neil McNeight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Wangtek tape drive In-Reply-To: <347EB96B.1EAC@edu.tsai.es> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Sergio Izquierdo Garcia wrote: > Hi all, > > I've obtained one streamer tape drive, Wangtek Model 5099EN24. > I have read that Linux can support it directly. > > Has anybody out there a driver for *S-DOS or *indows? > Any idea on where could I find it? It's a SCSI device (at least the ones I've seen are). As long as you have a SCSI card to plug it in to and the drivers for that, you shouldn't need anything else. But then, I've never used one under DOS or Windows either. -Neil ---------------------------------------------------+------------------- "There is more to life than increasing its speed." | Neil McNeight -Mahatma Gandhi | mcneight@umich.edu ---------------------------------------------------+------------------- From engine at chac.org Fri Nov 28 13:45:17 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Miniscribe Hard Disk In-Reply-To: <347EB798.2CE5@edu.tsai.es> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971128114517.00f13270@pop.batnet.com> At 12:22 11/28/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hello all, > >One of my recent finds is a....Miniscribe Model 3212. >Does anybody know its physical parameters (heads, cylinders, sectors)? MB 10, cylinders 612, heads 4. Anybody looking for this or any set of legacy HDD parameters, check out http://www.alaska.net/~zumwalt/os/hard_drive/Hdd_specs.txt __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine@chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Nov 28 09:09:31 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: Miniscribe Hard Disk In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971128114517.00f13270@pop.batnet.com> References: <347EB798.2CE5@edu.tsai.es> Message-ID: <199711282005.PAA08693@mail.cgocable.net> > At 12:22 11/28/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Hello all, > > > >One of my recent finds is a....Miniscribe Model 3212. > >Does anybody know its physical parameters (heads, cylinders, sectors)? > > MB 10, cylinders 612, heads 4. Anybody looking for this or any set of > legacy HDD parameters, check out > > http://www.alaska.net/~zumwalt/os/hard_drive/Hdd_specs.txt > > __________________________________________ > Kip Crosby engine@chac.org > http://www.chac.org/index.html > Computer History Association of California > > If this is Full height 10mb Miniscribe, it's built pretty good. I had 2 of them that somehow went bad, done a teardown and saw how solid parts were. Spindle motor is heavy and smooth. I have a comment about miniscribes quality. Later ones like 3xxx, 36xx, 6xxx, and 8xxx, they're gone downhill in quality department. Before Miniscribe got gobbled by Maxtor, they made and sold several 7040/7080 drives and this remarkly kept that same design all the way to around 1.6GB! Maxtor then redesigned wholly new drive afterwards with smaller logic board, no longer used zebera connectors and made packs and heads to handle up to 4 platters. The originals cannot handle more than 2. I saw newer drive 3.2gb type few days ago and I kept my judgement on it for quality and reliablity. Meaning: wait and see. When we needed service for current 7xxx series (couple of years ago or so) and info we called Maxtor and (!!) were told they do not made those logic boards for anything but put together physically. Very questionable! Troll From pwb3 at columbia.edu Fri Nov 28 14:24:55 1997 From: pwb3 at columbia.edu (P. W. Brandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:45 2005 Subject: s100 bus AD/converters Message-ID: <347F2897.1E9B@columbia.edu> I would like to get an AD converter board for my s100 bus North Star. It is still in use on a piece of equipment. I need a backup. I also have other S100 boards if someone is in need. pwb3@columbia.edu From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Fri Nov 28 09:41:04 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: PS needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971128094635.00e56ca0@mail.wizards.net> References: <199711280802.AAA17129@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199711282036.PAA13559@mail.cgocable.net> > At 00:02 28-11-97 PST, you wrote: > > >Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:17:07 +0000 > >From: jpero@cgo.wave.ca > >To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > >Subject: Re: Needed: Power Supply > >Message-ID: <199711280513.AAA22397@mail.cgocable.net> > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > >Bruce, Please ask other to rebuild that PSU this way. This is best > >and much easier because the electronic components inside those PSU is > >not that all strange and easily gotten. Capacitors are so cheap. > > ??? I'm not 100% sure I understand your syntax, but I think you're > suggesting that I repair the existing supply. That's a great suggestion, > and I would do it IF I had an adequate schematic diagram. Somehow, I don't > think DEC would be willing to part with such anytime soon. > > Unless someone can suggest what component to look at (I think it's the +12 > supply that's popping on and off), I will continue to pursue a replacement > for now. Take both keyboard, mouse off the machine just in case, When diagnosing the power problem, I always take ALL detachable parts off and try each one by one until I nab the guilty party. First, unhook all 3 hard drives and throw the power switch and see if you can wake up the computer. Then hook *one* hd just by power only and try, then power off, hook the scsi cable back on, pin 1 to pin 1 on motherboard see that also striped side of ribbon cable next to power connector and try again. Stripe is given as pin 1 wire. Those RZ23 is conners 100mb I think, and does only draw less than 8 Watt each at spinup. In my repair, I test for opens and shorts in power semiconductor components, visiually eye all passive comonents for burns or deformations (capacitors tops bulged or blown open, smelly if soldering that capacitor's legs). But now I could do better now that I got ESR meter to check most of capacitor's health. This does not require that shematics to do that! I never had one at all fixing anything from VCRs, TV's, monitors, even computer boards. Also check all power resistors for opens and creepage in resistance changes from rated markings. Most of trannys are like two diodes back to back. And FET and MOSFET have bit different reactions to meter probing when in circuit and out of circuit. In any switching or linear power supplies easier to disconnect just one big transformer totally out of circuit to get best meseaurements. When I find one or few power resistors (usually fusiable resistor) totally block of carbon, look at other living PSU of same make or jump on the sci.electronics.components or sci.electronics.repair to get correct resistor values or ask here! Troll From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 28 13:25:24 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: PS needed In-Reply-To: <9711281754.AA13573@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Nov 28, 97 09:54:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1468 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971128/f82f6726/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 28 13:20:58 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Needed: Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971127210400.00e4d310@mail.wizards.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Nov 27, 97 09:04:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1423 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971128/7302e9b6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 28 13:15:04 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: IBM PC jr In-Reply-To: <199711280403.UAA29668@mx2.u.washington.edu> from "Art Brown" at Nov 27, 97 11:03:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1052 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971128/932c2c83/attachment.ksh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Nov 28 15:09:23 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Wangtek tape drive Message-ID: <01IQJP4H59YQ9S72WE@cc.usu.edu> Neil McNeight wrote: >On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Sergio Izquierdo Garcia wrote: >> I've obtained one streamer tape drive, Wangtek Model 5099EN24. >> I have read that Linux can support it directly. > > It's a SCSI device (at least the ones I've seen are). As long as you have > a SCSI card to plug it in to and the drivers for that, you shouldn't need > anything else. But then, I've never used one under DOS or Windows either. The EN drives are _not_ SCSI drives. You will need a controller card for them. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From rcini at email.msn.com Fri Nov 28 19:51:08 1997 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Apple /// adoption Message-ID: <000401bcfc6a$e7b716c0$687a2599@office1> Today I adopted a 256k Apple ///. It has a single internal floppy drive and two add-in boards from Titan Technology. One is labeled "///+//" and the other is "///+//e". They are joined by a small 6-conductor ribbon cable and one contains RAM chips. Any idea what these are? Also, can someone point me to a good /// FAQ. Thanks! Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From engine at chac.org Fri Nov 28 20:42:46 1997 From: engine at chac.org (Kip Crosby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Apple /// adoption In-Reply-To: <000401bcfc6a$e7b716c0$687a2599@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971128184246.00f13bf0@pop.batnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 250 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971128/9d08d54b/attachment.bin From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Nov 28 20:45:18 1997 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Miniscribe Hard Disk Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19971129024518.00694538@pop3.concentric.net> what you have is a 10 meg HD - head is 2, cyl is 612 sect/trac is 17, rwc/wpc is 613/128, landing zone is 656, seek time is 85, interface is ST412/506, MFM drive. Hope this helps you. - John At 12:22 PM 11/28/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hello all, > >One of my recent finds is a Nixdorf 8810 (a PC/XT). It has one hard disk >drive, and it doesn?t start. It?s a Miniscribe Model 3212. > >Does anybody know its physical parameters (heads, cylinders, sectors)? > >Thank you in advance. > >-- >Sergio Izquierdo Garcia >mailto:henrio@edu.tsai.es > > > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Nov 28 23:28:09 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Info on RQDX3 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971128212809.0090ebe0@agora.rdrop.com> New day, new aggrivations... I've been trying to get an ST-212 drive formatted up as an RD51 so I can install a copy of Micro-RSTS onto one of my systems. Got the parameters to format the drive on my VS2000, and that seemed to go OK. Put the drive into the system (a MicroPDP 11/23), and it looked OK until I told the RSTS installer to prepare the drive, at which point it started complaining about various things, and claimed that the drive was an RD52?!? Back to the notes... Find a note that drives formatted on a VS2000 are not compatable with an RQDX1 controller... Whats in the 11/23? Yank the back off... Figures... An RQDX1! FOO!! Off to the board box... Locate an RQDX3, looks promising... Install it in the system... Now the system completes its self test and immediately complains about a "DU0 - ERR 15 Controller Error". WTH is this? Off to the book shelf... NUTZ! Latest book I've got only gets up to the RQDX1! Decide to bag it for the night... Put the RQDX1 back in... Same error??? AARGH!!! So to the questions: What is "DU0 - ERR 15 Controller Error" ? Did the RQDX1 perhaps munge the format on the drive during the install attempt? Anyone have a list of the jumpers on the RQDX3 that might be of use ? Can a RQDX3 be subbed straight across for an RQDX1 ? If not, does anyone have a formatter disk (or whatever) for the RQDX1 ? Why am I now getting the same error from the RQDX1 and the RQDX3 ? Anyone got a spare copy of a manual that covers the various RQDX? ? Foo! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From foxnhare at goldrush.com Fri Nov 28 23:26:21 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Classic Mags for sale=>Delaware Area Message-ID: <347FA77D.AFD@goldrush.com> Just got this letter in E-Mail, and I knowing how valuable good reference material is, am passing the message along so if any of you on the classics list are interested please E-Mail him. I wish Delaware was a stone's throw away but it would take quite a propulsion system from my end of the U.S. QUOTE:========================================= Subject: computer magazines for sale Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:13:09 -0500 From: Ned Heite To: @goldrush.com CC: hl@SFSU.EDU I need your advice. I started subscribing to computer magazines around 1977 or 78, got all the early Commodore stuff like Compute! and the others back before Compute!, and served a while on the InfoWorld review board, doing Commodore stuff. Wrote for many of the short-lived computer magazines of the early eighties. Anyway, I have about a pickup load of circa 1979-1988 computer literature. Saved everything. Have two C64 computers I'll part with. So far, you are the only person I have found who might know where I can unload these goodies. I don't want to put them on the dump but Boss Lady is getting a bit pissy about it. Is there a place where I can advertise on the net? The stuff is in central Delaware, about 2 hours from Philadelphia, Washington, or Baltimore. First reasonable offer takes it all. Where to I advertise? Please feel free to post this query on lists. Ned Heite eheite@dmv.com ENDQUOTE ========================================================= Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 28 23:37:53 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Atari 130XE Message-ID: Well today wasn't the best as far as hunting goes. One of my main finds was an Atari 130XE, the case is like my 520ST, but I'm possitive this is an 8-bit Atari. What is the story with this one, and can it use the same powersupply as my 520ST? If it can use it I think I'll finally have enough pieces to get an 8-bit Atari up and running. It has a cartridge port that looks like it will take the cartridges that go in the Atari 800 I've got (it's also missing a power supply). One major plus is it had the necessary cable to connect the computer to the floppy drive I picked up a month or so ago. Although the cable seems to be intended to go to this real cool looking little box, an "Atari 850 Interface Module", which is complete with a power supply, and a operaters manual. The operators manual has the following note, which I think is interesting "We have included a photocopy of the Operator's Manual in order to expedite initial delivery of the product", and it continues with instructions on how to get the printed manual. What was probably the biggest find was a Macintosh Colour Classic minus keyboard and mouse for $5.00, only has 4Mb of memory, but it just might end up replacing my SE/30 as my Word Processor. I just wish it could handle 32Mb of RAM like the SE/30, instead of a measly 10Mb (OK, I admit, that's more than I need for what I'm threating). The other good finds were a VIC-20 in the box, but missing the manuals (I've got those already). I found a VIC-1541 at another place, I'm hoping to get it cleaned up and running. Most of the rest was manuals and cables, along with a box of Amiga software (most originals). Also picked up a Daystar LT200 card (Still sealed in the anti-static bag) to connect a PC to LocalTalk, anyone know of any Linux support for this? I'd love to use my Linux server as a bridge between EtherTalk, and LocalTalk. Especially since I've got LocalTalk Software for my Amiga's, and the IIgs's will also do it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From henrio at edu.tsai.es Sat Nov 29 01:49:07 1997 From: henrio at edu.tsai.es (Sergio Izquierdo Garcia) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Wangtek tape drive References: <01IQJP4H59YQ9S72WE@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <347FC8F3.26DE@edu.tsai.es> Roger Ivie wrote: > > Neil McNeight wrote: > >On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Sergio Izquierdo Garcia wrote: > >> I've obtained one streamer tape drive, Wangtek Model 5099EN24. > >> I have read that Linux can support it directly. > > > > It's a SCSI device (at least the ones I've seen are). As long as you have > > a SCSI card to plug it in to and the drivers for that, you shouldn't need > > anything else. But then, I've never used one under DOS or Windows either. > > The EN drives are _not_ SCSI drives. You will need a controller card for them. I aldeady have the controller card. I haven?t the software. Thank you all. -- Sergio Izquierdo Garcia mailto:henrio@edu.tsai.es From rcini at email.msn.com Sat Nov 29 09:05:38 1997 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Apple /// update Message-ID: <009701bcfcf1$dba87720$b9752599@office1> Upon closer examination, it appears that the Apple that I have is a ///plus. What is the relative rarity of this beast? Also, was there special software for it? What OS did it use? Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 29 12:39:54 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Ahhhh... Was RSTS sold bin-only? Message-ID: Mine doesn't SYSGEN. It can't find any of the .MAC files. (The OS source?) Looks like I have a single-user system! None of the monitors like the DZ11. (Of which I got only one to work. The other must be toast or something, the machine refused to boot with it in) Back to square one! (The 600lb paperweight!) From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Nov 29 13:10:51 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Ahhhh... Was RSTS sold bin-only? In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 29, 97 12:39:54 pm Message-ID: <9711291910.AA08104@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971129/aaa34811/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 29 13:08:21 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Ahhhh... Was RSTS sold bin-only? In-Reply-To: <9711291910.AA08104@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Did you do a complete install from tape, or are you just > fooling around with an old installation of RSTS/E which was on the > disk when you got it? Which version of RSTS/E? I don't have it on a tape. All I have in an old install that's on the disk. > Again, RSTS/E is very picky about hardware configuration. Assuming > that your configuration is only a UDA50 and two DZ11's, the configuration > should be: > Device: DZ11 Name: TTA CSR: 760100* Vector: 300* Support: yes > Device: DZ11 Name: TTB CSR: 760110* Vector: 310* Support: yes ^^^^^^ These look funny... Mine are at 160140 and 330... that's what's written on the case. But I set that in hardwr... (HARDWR option of INIT) From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Nov 29 13:24:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Ahhhh... Was RSTS sold bin-only? In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Nov 29, 97 01:08:21 pm Message-ID: <9711291924.AA13376@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1508 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971129/f6f9e065/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 29 13:18:47 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Ahhhh... Was RSTS sold bin-only? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > These look funny... Mine are at 160140 and 330... that's what's written ^^^^^^ Ahhhhh.... stupid mistake. 1=7 when dealing with 16-bit octal... From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 29 13:22:57 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Ahhhh... Was RSTS sold bin-only? In-Reply-To: <9711291924.AA13376@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Chances are that the files that SYSGEN is looking for were deleted > to free up disk space after the install. Which version of RSTS/E, again? > (I know I can find you an install tape...) It's RSTS 7.2, the first one to get red manuals, I think... All the patch manuals and such say RSTS 7.2. > If there were other peripherals in the original configuration, those > addresses may have been appropriate. (For Unibus purposes, "160140" > is the same as "760140".) I'm a bit confused by your comment; > are both of your DZ11's at the same CSR and Vector??? No, only one works. The machine wouldn't boot with the other in. I think it was toasted. I have a half-dozen extra DZs, (Boards only) so I can use another... > If there are no major collisions between CSR's and Vectors, you can > put the devices at nonstandard addresses (as you've already figured > out). Have you confirmed that what is written on the case corresponds > with reality? If there's a discrepancy, you've got a problem! Go > in with console ODT and verify at least the CSR's. I set the jumpers to what was on the case. (ALARM BELLS!) I'm resetting a pair to the numbers yours are. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 29 13:44:23 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Chances are that the files that SYSGEN is looking for were deleted > > to free up disk space after the install. Which version of RSTS/E, again? > > (I know I can find you an install tape...) And I know that if you do, I can nuke it through some bonehead manuver... :) > No, only one works. The machine wouldn't boot with the other in. > I think it was toasted. > I have a half-dozen extra DZs, (Boards only) so I can use another... It might have been! I dropped in 2 new DZs set to your numbers, and all looks good so far (I.E. It booted). I'll reset the device parameters and see if RSTS sees them. Then, get my serial tester and see if it really is working or what... There may be no need to re-sysgen after all! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 29 13:51:36 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Ahhhh... Was RSTS sold bin-only? In-Reply-To: <9711291924.AA13376@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > If there were other peripherals in the original configuration, those > addresses may have been appropriate. (For Unibus purposes, "160140" > is the same as "760140".) I'm a bit confused by your comment; > are both of your DZ11's at the same CSR and Vector??? Ahh, here's why they were reset! The TU58 and RU0 are at 300 and 310, respectively. So, I'll just change the interrupt numbers, the addresses look fine. This is according to HARDWR. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 29 14:01:41 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, now I have 2 DZ11s in, INIT sees both, now to START and see if they are recognised! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 29 14:06:02 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Ahhhh... Was RSTS sold bin-only? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ahhh... no luck. START disables all the DZs as no controller. Time to go verify CSRs... Umm... How do I do that? From gram at terra.cnct.com Sat Nov 29 14:47:45 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Wangtek tape drive In-Reply-To: <347EB96B.1EAC@edu.tsai.es> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Sergio Izquierdo Garcia wrote: > I've obtained one streamer tape drive, Wangtek Model 5099EN24. > I have read that Linux can support it directly. > > Has anybody out there a driver for *S-DOS or *indows? > Any idea on where could I find it? Well, if Linux can support it directly, why bother with Microsoft stuff? (Hey, they did good BASIC ROMS, but their OSs suck.) -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From manney at nwohio.com Sat Nov 29 14:52:17 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: 386 and 486 motherboards Message-ID: <199711292056.MAA17583@mx5.u.washington.edu> I just bought forty 386 and 486 motherboards. These are anywhere from 386 SX-16's to 486-[unmentionable because less than 10 years old]. Anyone want? e-mail me privately...manney@nwohio.com ps I even have a 286 with onboard HDD, FDD, parallel and Coms...never seen built-in peripherals on a 286 -- that ought to be collectible, now! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Nov 29 15:14:45 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: DZ11: I'm obviously doing this wrong. Message-ID: What would the jumpers be set to for a CSR of 160160 and a vector of 350? I have the manual and I've set them to 4 or 5 different addresses, but I must be doing it wrong as INIT never sees them. From sinasohn at ricochet.net Sat Nov 29 15:55:54 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Atari 130XE Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19971129135447.0daf0a78@ricochet.net> At 09:37 PM 11/28/97 -0800, you wrote: >was an Atari 130XE, the case is like my 520ST, but I'm possitive this is an It's an 8-bit atari (ala 800) but from later on at the very end of the 8-bit line. Be very careful about plugging an ST ps in, I don't htink they're the same. >It has a cartridge port that looks like it will take the cartridges that go >in the Atari 800 I've got (it's also missing a power supply). Same cartridges. >One major plus is it had the necessary cable to connect the computer to the >floppy drive I picked up a month or so ago. Although the cable seems to be >intended to go to this real cool looking little box, an "Atari 850 >Interface Module", which is complete with a power supply, and a operaters That connector/cable is used for a lot of things. It's mainly(?) for the disk drives, but hooking up to the 850 gives you standard RS-232, multiple atari SIO(is that what it was called?) ports and possibly a parallel printer port? There were cables that had built-in adapters to go from the sio to parallel printers as well as ones for RS-232. Also, there were modems that used that interface rather than a standard RS-232 and printers too. Sorry if that's not clear but it's late and I'm still working... >What was probably the biggest find was a Macintosh Colour Classic minus >keyboard and mouse for $5.00, only has 4Mb of memory, but it just might end >up replacing my SE/30 as my Word Processor. I just wish it could handle >32Mb of RAM like the SE/30, instead of a measly 10Mb (OK, I admit, that's >more than I need for what I'm threating). D*mn! Why can I find bargains like that! The Mac colour (or color for our us friends) classic is a heck of a nice machine. Still very useable in the clsaaroom and elsewhere. P.S., there is a classic macs mailing list for them what use <'040 macs. email me for more info... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 29 16:43:20 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Atari 130XE In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971129135447.0daf0a78@ricochet.net> Message-ID: >At 09:37 PM 11/28/97 -0800, you wrote: >>was an Atari 130XE, the case is like my 520ST, but I'm possitive this is an > >It's an 8-bit atari (ala 800) but from later on at the very end of the 8-bit >line. Be very careful about plugging an ST ps in, I don't htink they're the >same. I was afraid of this, which was why I asked. Argh the powersupply curse strikes again. I swear one of these days when I can find the time I'm going to build a generic PowerSupply of some sort. >>It has a cartridge port that looks like it will take the cartridges that go >>in the Atari 800 I've got (it's also missing a power supply). > >Same cartridges. Good, I found a whole pile of cartridges about a month ago. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From Offshootpr at aol.com Sat Nov 29 17:43:15 1997 From: Offshootpr at aol.com (Offshootpr@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100A Message-ID: <971129184315_107362011@mrin79> I have one, complete and working, color monitor, printer, word perfect, lotus symphone, and ALL documentation. It's available! Fax 770-486-9847 From Zeus334 at aol.com Sat Nov 29 21:10:58 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100A Message-ID: <971129221057_666309678@mrin44.mail.aol.com> >I have one, complete and working, color monitor, printer, >word perfect, lotus >symphone, and ALL documentation. It's available! >Fax 770-486-9847 Isn't that the infamous computer that couldn't format disks? If not, what was? I am not interested in acquiring this machine, but I would be interested in the general specs From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Nov 29 21:29:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100A In-Reply-To: <971129221057_666309678@mrin44.mail.aol.com> from "Zeus334@aol.com" at Nov 29, 97 10:10:58 pm Message-ID: <9711300329.AA09299@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 891 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971129/dda4e627/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Nov 29 22:19:54 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100A Message-ID: <199711300419.AA07995@world.std.com> Message-ID: Just in case you need to know... I spent some time at the Capital for the holiday, and took a few hours off to check out some of the vintage machines at the Smithsonion Institution. The good news is that the PDP-15 is back! It is not running, but looks (from the outside) to be in fine shape. Along side it, and probably part of it, is a Digital TU20 tape drive. It is a 1/2" 9 track monster that looks to be as old as the PDP-15. Interestingly, it is in the green DEC color scheme. What is the TU20? William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Nov 29 22:34:29 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100A In-Reply-To: <199711300419.AA07995@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 29, 97 11:19:54 pm Message-ID: <9711300434.AA07589@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971129/97e9f019/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Nov 29 21:38:10 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: FS/T: DECstations Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971129193810.0088fc80@agora.rdrop.com> Been doing a bit of an inventory (sanity check) around the Computer Garage this weekend, and have come across some units that need to find a new home to make room for things somewhat less contemporary. Asking price for any of the units is $25.00 plus shipping, or trade for other items of interest. (see the Computer Garage 'Wish List' for some possibilities) Available Quantity Description 4 Digital DECstation 2100 1 Digital DECstation 3100 1 Digital DECstation 5000/200 These are CPU only, various configurations of memory and hard drive, built in video and ethernet capability. No OS. (suitable for ULTRIX or NetBSD/MIPS) Obviously, no shipping if you pick them up! (Beaverton, Oregon.) No guarantee of condition, though they are in good shape by visual inspection. Indicated as functional when removed from service by person who provided the units to me. Please note: these are MIPS processor based DECstations, *not* VAXstations! These units will *not* run VMS or any other VAX software. Drop me a note if interested. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 30 00:12:11 1997 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: 386 and 486 motherboards In-Reply-To: <199711292056.MAA17583@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, PG Manney wrote: > I just bought forty 386 and 486 motherboards. These are anywhere from 386 > SX-16's to 486-[unmentionable because less than 10 years old]. > > Anyone want? > > e-mail me privately...manney@nwohio.com > > ps I even have a 286 with onboard HDD, FDD, parallel and Coms...never seen > built-in peripherals on a 286 -- that ought to be collectible, now! Could be a Western Digital WDM-20 (or near to) - should have video also. - don donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj From jpero at cgo.wave.ca Sat Nov 29 19:42:36 1997 From: jpero at cgo.wave.ca (jpero@cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: 386 and 486 motherboards In-Reply-To: References: <199711292056.MAA17583@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <199711300638.BAA16949@mail.cgocable.net> > On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, PG Manney wrote: > > > I just bought forty 386 and 486 motherboards. These are anywhere from 386 > > SX-16's to 486-[unmentionable because less than 10 years old]. > > > > Anyone want? > > > > e-mail me privately...manney@nwohio.com > > > > ps I even have a 286 with onboard HDD, FDD, parallel and Coms...never seen > > built-in peripherals on a 286 -- that ought to be collectible, now! > > Could be a Western Digital WDM-20 (or near to) - should have video also. > > - don Heh, On mine has no video on board, I can tell by the solder pads and 8 spots for video memory. So, that depends on that configurations and uses HeadLand chipset along with WDC's chipset. And, no bios on this board but have the MFM ROM for that part. Troll > donm@cts.com > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives > Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society > Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. > Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) - 619-454-8412 > *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* > see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj > > > > From groberts at mitre.org Sun Nov 30 09:26:08 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Things seen. In-Reply-To: References: <199711300419.AA07995@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130102608.00e8499c@mail90> At 11:30 PM 11/29/97 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: >I spent some time at the Capital for the holiday, and took a few hours off >to check out some of the vintage machines at the Smithsonion Institution. speaking of which, i would recommend the Smithsonian's "Information Age" exhibit to anyone in this group. It's in the National Museum of American History (14th and Constitution in Washington DC): http://www.si.edu/organiza/museums/nmah/youmus/genlinfo.htm or see a glimpse of it in the on line version: http://www.si.edu/organiza/museums/nmah/youmus/ex18infa.htm they have cool stuff like an early Sun, and (as I recall) an Apple I - also mainframe history, telephone and telgraph, television, etc. worth a trip. the price is right too (free!) - one of the benefits of living in the DC area. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From groberts at mitre.org Sun Nov 30 09:33:43 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: weekend finds Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130103343.006df3b4@mail90> my favorite tv/radio shop again seems to be cleaning out his back room. i picked up: Radio Shack Color computer C64 PC Jr + monitor (w/ IR keyboard) XT clone 2 IBM 5151 monitors Apple III monitor which was all i had room for. had to leave behind a cool looking (although somewhat beat up) IBM Displaywriter system. also lots of TVs, typewriters, old dot matrix printers, 3rd party EGA monitors, etc. the only thing i've played with is the PC jr. I used to have the tech. manual on this puppy but i think I tossed it out some years ago (dumb). the machine seems to work (IR keyboard and all) but the monitor has a vertical hold problem (beautiful colors on the monitor though). i'll try the NTSC out and see how that works. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From Zeus334 at aol.com Sun Nov 30 09:48:31 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: weekend finds Message-ID: <971130104830_261311238@mrin43.mail.aol.com> >PC jr. Would you like to have another IR keyboard? Also, do you need any C64 stuff? I've been trying to get rid of it for a while now (You name it, I have it, except the C64 and all kinds of expansion boards/cartriges) From MicroAge97 at aol.com Sun Nov 30 09:59:27 1997 From: MicroAge97 at aol.com (MicroAge97) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: 386 and 486 motherboards Message-ID: <27b794bd.34818d61@aol.com> sure tell me how much you want. dave microage97@aol.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Nov 30 11:16:48 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: weekend finds In-Reply-To: <971130104830_261311238@mrin43.mail.aol.com> from "Zeus334@aol.com" at Nov 30, 97 10:48:31 am Message-ID: <9711301716.AA07140@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 404 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971130/4115b82f/attachment.ksh From Zeus334 at aol.com Sun Nov 30 11:27:55 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: weekend finds Message-ID: <971130122755_2040111068@mrin53.mail.aol.com> Well, I have a TV, VCR, and Cable Descrambler box. Each has a separate remote. I was unable to operate the TV picture controls for a while, because each time I do, the Cable Box does something weird. Also, if I operate the the volume control on the TV remote, the Cable Box sometimes changes the channel. But, the IR emitter is focused in a small beam, so that unless the IR keyboard reflects off of something, or the receivers are right next to each other, there oughtn't be interference. In a message dated 97-11-30 12:20:54 EST, you write: << > >PC jr. > Would you like to have another IR keyboard? On the subject of PC Jr's, I've always had a silly question: how do you use more than one in the same room at the same time? Don't the IR keyboards interfere with each other? Or is there some obvious solution to this problem? I've noticed that some of the Web-TV units also have IR keyboards... do they have a solution to this problem? Tim. >> From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 30 11:46:50 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: s100 bus AD/converters References: <347F2897.1E9B@columbia.edu> Message-ID: <3481A68A.7F5B0EC4@rain.org> P. W. Brandt wrote: > I would like to get an AD converter board for my s100 bus North Star. It > is still in use on a piece of equipment. I need a backup. I also have > other S100 boards if someone is in need. pwb3@columbia.edu What brand of A/D converter do you have in the unit now? I found a Beckman Analog card yesterday at the TRW swap meet but have no idea what its function is ... yet :). From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Nov 30 11:54:49 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: weekend finds In-Reply-To: <971130122755_2040111068@mrin53.mail.aol.com> from "Zeus334@aol.com" at Nov 30, 97 12:27:55 pm Message-ID: <9711301754.AA13961@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1460 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19971130/5ad112aa/attachment.ksh From Zeus334 at aol.com Sun Nov 30 12:01:19 1997 From: Zeus334 at aol.com (Zeus334@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: weekend finds Message-ID: <971130130118_-1037591605@mrin54.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-11-30 12:56:10 EST, you write: << I would guess that the IR keyboards in the PC Jr's pretty much guaranteed that they would never be adopted by schools. When all you have to do is point your keyboard at the teacher's PC and type "DEL *.*", any schools that did buy them must've unloaded them as soon as they could... >> For the weak-stomached, I will use profanities here, so watch out. Well then, what about the new IR stuff like IRDA, the new IR Mice in the IBM A****A S series, the IR keyboards for l*****s, etc? From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 30 12:16:21 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: weekend finds In-Reply-To: <9711301716.AA07140@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <971130104830_261311238@mrin43.mail.aol.com> from "Zeus334@aol.com" at Nov 30, 97 10:48:31 am Message-ID: >On the subject of PC Jr's, I've always had a silly question: how do you >use more than one in the same room at the same time? Don't the IR >keyboards interfere with each other? Or is there some obvious solution >to this problem? Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, it's been a few years since I've seen one up and running, you have to have the keyboard and the computer pretty much lined up. The IR on the PC JR didn't work that great. >I've noticed that some of the Web-TV units also have IR keyboards... >do they have a solution to this problem? Now this on the other hand could be a problem, although I doubt anyone considered having multiple units in the room when designing them. Perhaps they have the ability to select IR "channels"? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | | For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them. | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html | From rcini at email.msn.com Sun Nov 30 15:30:48 1997 From: rcini at email.msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Apple /// SOS Message-ID: <003301bcfdd7$7dc83500$7a022399@office1> Does anyone have a copy of the Apple /// SOS distribution that I can buy?? I got the recently-adopted /// working, but it has no disks or manuals. Thanks again! Rich Cini/WUGNET (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================ From manney at nwohio.com Sun Nov 30 15:41:01 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: 386 and 486 motherboards Message-ID: <199711302146.NAA01460@mx3.u.washington.edu> I'll e-mail a price list in the next couple of days. manndey@nwohio.com ---------- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: Re: 386 and 486 motherboards > Date: Sunday, November 30, 1997 10:07 AM > > sure tell me how much you want. > > dave > microage97@aol.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Nov 30 18:18:27 1997 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: weekend finds In-Reply-To: <9711301754.AA13961@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <971130122755_2040111068@mrin53.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971130161827.02fa5218@ferrari.sfu.ca> At 09:54 AM 97/11/30 -0800, you wrote: >Actually, what you might imagine to be a small beam isn't all that small. >Go to radio shack and buy one of their little IR-viewing aids sometime. >(Or use a CCD camera to look at the output from your remote; CCD's >are quite sensitive to the near-IR.) Most have a beamwidth at least >60 degrees wide, and all work quite effectively if you point them >backwards but at a white wall :-) This is standard practice here at home, we play with the thing quite often, i.e. at the wall, the ceiling, from under a blanket, at our finch, etc. On the PCjr I found the range to be quite poor, and one had to be right in front of the system unit in any case. Across the room operation was next to impossible. >I would guess that the IR keyboards in the PC Jr's pretty much guaranteed >that they would never be adopted by schools. When all you have to do >is point your keyboard at the teacher's PC and type "DEL *.*", any >schools that did buy them must've unloaded them as soon as they could... This was an option, albeit it came standard. A keyboard cord could also be used, as I recall. I sold my PCjr in 1989. I still have technical manual, if anyone's interested. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Nov 30 14:03:47 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: weekend finds In-Reply-To: <9711301716.AA07140@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <971130104830_261311238@mrin43.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971130120347.0088c100@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:16 AM 11/30/97 -0800, you wrote: >> >PC jr. >> Would you like to have another IR keyboard? > >On the subject of PC Jr's, I've always had a silly question: how do you >use more than one in the same room at the same time? Don't the IR >keyboards interfere with each other? Or is there some obvious solution >to this problem? Yep... Use the optional Keyboard interface cable. Connecting it disables the IR receiver. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From photze at batelco.com.bh Sun Nov 30 12:03:38 1997 From: photze at batelco.com.bh (Hotze) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: weekend finds Message-ID: <01bcfdba$487fa300$0100007f@localhost> >I've noticed that some of the Web-TV units also have IR keyboards... >do they have a solution to this problem? I think that the IR keyboards are the same thing for jrs and for Web-TVs... a joke. I mean, they belong with video confencing, (responsive) touch screens, and gigahertz processors. Right now, the technology is too expensive to get a good use. (IE make something cheap and with few functions, like a remote, or expenisve and keyboard functions, but at a high cost). I've seen the Web-TV IR keyboards (a very slim & beautiful-looking unit), and they cost hundreds of dollars. When you buy the add-on printer, keyboard, and stuff like that, the price probably soars to a higher price than a sub-$1000 PC (I've seen 166MMX boxes for under $500), it was the same problem with the jr: You promise them cheap, easy to use, and seemingly child-like to use. You end up with bad IR transmiters/recievers, expensive replacements, a high initial-cost, (the jr. shipped for like 1,200, not the promised 700 bucks.), and babies are bad enough with remotes. What do they do with 110 volts, a IR keyboard and reciever, and a cartrige system, all wonderful devices used by adults/older kids? The results are hard to even think of. If they could make a computer with less than 20V.... that would probably be OK.... (A different) Tim. ;^) From hansp at columbia.digiweb.com Sun Nov 30 16:08:36 1997 From: hansp at columbia.digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:46 2005 Subject: Workings of a TTY Message-ID: <3481E3E4.B49@digiweb.com> I have a query about the operation of a KSR 33 TTY when reading paper tape : does the TTY blindly send the characters read from the tape at 10 cps or is the tape advance and read triggered by a signal from whatever th TTY is connected to. Regards, -- Hans B. Pufal : Comprehensive Computer Catalogue : _-_-__-___--_-____-_--_-_-____--_---_-_---_--__--_--_--____---_--_--__--_ From salmwk at worldnet.att.net Sat Nov 22 16:08:36 1997 From: salmwk at worldnet.att.net (Saleem Nathoo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:47 2005 Subject: Cipher 9 track tape drive Message-ID: <19971210221400.AAA26417@default> I am interested in this tape drive! Does it come with a controller card, software, cable, mannuals? What is your asking price? Thanks, Saleem From sinasohn at ricochet.nospam.net Sun Nov 30 19:27:21 1997 From: sinasohn at ricochet.nospam.net (Roger Sinasohn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:47 2005 Subject: Donation - old mainframe Unix system Message-ID: <199712010128.TAA12119@rgate.metricom.com> FYI... In ba.market.computers, George Akimov wrote: >Our company has a computer which we would like to donate to college or >school. >The name is "ARETE" Model 1224/160/16 OS - ARIX, ARIXNET Ethernet >2 CPU boards, 68040 -25mhz >64 MB memory >4-800 MB Disks >16 serial ports >240 v.power >Expansion Cabinet 1200/exp >474 MB disk drive 1000/D474 >9-track Tape Drive 1000/9T-HP >9-track Tape/Disk Controller 1000/DT2-9T >Software, incl INFORMIX. >Any interest in that, please call (408)376-3801 ext.128 >or e-mail: marina@dentistat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 30 23:43:10 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:47 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100A In-Reply-To: <9711300329.AA09299@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <971129221057_666309678@mrin44.mail.aol.com> from "Zeus334@aol.com" at Nov 29, 97 10:10:58 pm Message-ID: <199712011048.FAA13973@smtp.interlog.com> On 29 Nov 97 at 19:29, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > >I have one, complete and working, color monitor, printer, >word perfect, > > lotus > > >symphone, and ALL documentation. It's available! > > > > >Fax 770-486-9847 > > Isn't that the infamous computer that couldn't format disks? If not, what > > was? I am not interested in acquiring this machine, but I would be interested > > in the general specs > I have some old Byte 'zines that previewed the Rainbow and one of the reviewer's gripes (Jerry Pournelle ?) was that he had to run around to find a shop that could format some disks. The controller had it's own Z-80 board IIRC for duo floppies. It could use either CPM or MSDos. I have 2 that I haven't ressurected yet ( no term, no k-brd, no System disks, but one has a Seagate HD which I'm hoping is self-booting ) I believe that this was another case of an OEM wanting to lock in it's customers, so it failed miserably, altho there were quite a few Rainbow user groups sponserred by DEC. Allison I'm sure, has all the specs and there is a downloadable systems site. > Of all the machines that DEC sold with RX50 drives, the Rainbow is the > only one that I own that *can* format blank floppies into RX50's. > Computers that couldn't format RX50 disks include: > > Anything with a RQDX1, 2, or 3 controller (i.e. Q-bus machines) > or with a RUX50 (i.e. Unibus machines). Third-party Q-bus and Unibus > disk subsystems are generally capable of formatting RX50's. > *and* > Any of the DEC PRO series. > Actually, didn't some of the DECmates come with a RX50 floppy drive? > Were these capable of formatting? > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > Not being mini or DEC literate what is the RX50 format and what systems (platforms) is it used on ? ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 30 23:43:10 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:47 2005 Subject: Toronto-area comp museums ? Message-ID: <199712011048.FAA13980@smtp.interlog.com> A bit area-specific but with the plethora of west-coast posters aargh-ingly having access to so many old machines ; some parity. Does anyone on this list know of any T.O. computer museums in this area ? Not the Science Center , it has interactive displays etc. but no real museum, and they know of none in the area. I know Charley Fox is trying to set one up in the Windsor area and I've heard of another chap in the K-W area but none locally. Any info or interest, please E-mail me. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sun Nov 30 23:43:10 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:30:47 2005 Subject: Atari 130XE In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971129135447.0daf0a78@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199712011048.FAA13996@smtp.interlog.com> On 29 Nov 97 at 15:55, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 09:37 PM 11/28/97 -0800, you wrote: > >was an Atari 130XE, the case is like my 520ST, but I'm possitive this is an > > It's an 8-bit atari (ala 800) but from later on at the very end of the 8-bit > line. Be very careful about plugging an ST ps in, I don't htink they're the > same. > Lovely little machine. Still in use on many BBS'. The PS uses +5 v taken from pins 4, 1 , and 6 @ 1.5 a. Theres an excellent FAQ on the Atari 8-bit NG. > >It has a cartridge port that looks like it will take the cartridges that go > >in the Atari 800 I've got (it's also missing a power supply). > > Same cartridges. > NO ! It uses different cartridges. They are slightly smaller than the Atari 400-800 ones. >One major plus is it had the necessary cable to connect the computer to the > >floppy drive I picked up a month or so ago. Although the cable seems to be > >intended to go to this real cool looking little box, an "Atari 850 > >Interface Module", which is complete with a power supply, and a operaters > > That connector/cable is used for a lot of things. It's mainly(?) for the > disk drives, but hooking up to the 850 gives you standard RS-232, multiple > atari SIO(is that what it was called?) ports and possibly a parallel printer > port? There were cables that had built-in adapters to go from the sio to > parallel printers as well as ones for RS-232. Also, there were modems that > used that interface rather than a standard RS-232 and printers too. > Sorry if that's not clear but it's late and I'm still working... > The SIO ports on the Atari 8-bits was not standard RS232 (the greedy buggers wanted to lock you in to their peripherals) and the 850 as well as the MEO and Black Box gave you access to standard rs232. There are cables SIO2PC that allow connection to a PC to transfer data using the 1050 DD . These drives could be daisy-chained together up to 8 drives IIRC. The SIO2PC cable is also used for emulation using any one of the numerous excellent emu. prgs. There are suppliers still servicing the devoted market. It can use Lynx and a remarkable local Toronto 8-bit board relays comp.sys.atari in it's confs. There is also a net of 8-bit Atari BBS'. The very active NG can answer any questions you may have. ciao larry lwalkerN0spaM@interlog.com